From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:25:12 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8528D48A76 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEr0Bf013917 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:49 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0602" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 840242 Lines: 17934 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 13:02:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Cox Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed been trying to send this and couldn't, so here's a cut and paste At 08:57 PM 1/27/2006, you wrote: >Kathy, >Can you shed any light on the reason for the new small hive beetle >regulations at the border. I am totally unaware of what is going on at the border. This is all news to me, but I'm over here on the coast and we are way removed from the goings on at the boarder. I'll ask my friend who is a commercial beek what he knows. >Was the problem discussed at your last meeting. No, it wasn't. Everybody was quick to >say the rules were not going to be enforced! Brokers assured no problems at >the border! >Boy were those people misinformed. Again, this is the first I have heard of trucks being turned away. I haven't had time to read my mail, been so busy getting the queen raising going. >I have been told privately Kathy that California queen breeders are pushing >the new rules. Can you confirm? I am so small time, Bob. I have not joined any organizations that deal with queen breeding. So I can't confirm a thing. Sorry to be such dud with your questions. >Now to almond pollination prices. What the heck is going on? >Any truth to the story that almond growers are refusing to pay higher prices My bees are "subcontracted".....all 20 hives going to the almonds. The fellow who is taking them has had contracts since last year and he is placing 1900 hives. I am not doing it for the money he offered, but for the honey for the nucs I am raising and selling. >than $80-90 and beekeepers are having trouble placing hives? A >friend said ads are being run in "The Fresno Bee" and other papers >advertising thousands of hives for almond pollination asking fees of >80-90. Is there or is there not enough hives ? Bob > > I don't know what is going on, but I have heard that there are a lot of bees coming in from Australia that are not diseased and quite attractive. My friend has bought some to replace deadouts and they are nice bees, that are healthy and built up, because they are in their summer in Australia. I'm sorry I can't be of more help with information, but I'll dig around and see what I can find out. Kathy Cox bloomfieldbeeshoney.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 05:59:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Animal Antibiotic Found in UK Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Animal Antibiotic Found in Honey The Independent (UK), 2/2/2006 Traces of an antibiotic were found in honey sold in the UK, according to a Which? report. Tests showed residues of tylosin in three out of 20 jars. The antibiotic is licensed to treat animals but not bees. The consumer organisation said the antibiotic posed no health threat but that honey should be a pure food. For more Apitherapy-related news, go to: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:46:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Cox Subject: Re: Save a Hive In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Tom, I have a "Bee Tree." It has a screen on the bottom ( 8 MESH), and it is sitting on 2X4's. and on the top I have a deep and a queen excluder and a super! The bees go out their natural opening. Do your bees still have an opening? The part that my bees are in is about 2 1/2 feet. Before I had the queen excluder on, the queen moved up into the super. Now she is contained below and I remove the honey super frames and give them new comb to draw on a regular basis. I guess that they are happy in there, as they have been there for 2 years after the tree was cut down. Last year they cast 2 swarms and I caught them. However you can protect them from getting wet, is what you need to do. My first year, I built a little peaked roof on it and covered the roof with shingles. Kathy Cox / Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets At 03:24 PM 1/30/2006, you wrote: >Is it possible to save the hive? I live in the northeast where the bees >are hibernating. I understand the importance in sustaining the bee >population, so any tips would be greatly appreciated. > >Thank you >Tom Tamasy -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:04:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Queen Longevity In-Reply-To: <20060202055910.84d281a5f2f7df0ef38485a84124037d.36b7a7f4c0.wbe@email.email.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have recently heard that the longevity of insturmentally inseminated queens is not very long, normally being two or three months. I would be interested in hearing from those of you who have had experience with II queens. The reason I'm asking is that I am considering taking Sue Cobey's instrumental insemination course for the purpose of being able to provide queens of known genetics to the area beekeepers around me. Taking this course is not inexpensive, along with the required equipment. I don't want to go through this expense and then not be able to provide a product (II queens) that don't last for at least a year in the hive. If I do this I think I can provide queens to my local people at a reasonable cost, not the $100+ that II queens are going for now as breeder queens. My queens would be used as production queens. Mike Located in southwest Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:47:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: 5.6mm new foundation standard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all: At the Beemasters International Beekeeping Forums on 2Feb 06 this was posted by Finsky of Finland in discussion on the following: http://www.beemaster.com/beebbs/viewtopic.php?t=4260 "New Siberian foundation standard 5,60 mm "You all know that Russian Siberia was the first areas where varroa spread. Just now Russians have accepted new foundation stardard and it is 5,60 mm. Usual size is 5,3 mm, but this is bigger." Finsky Just thought you all might be interested, especially since history could repeat itself again. Respectfullly submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 18:44:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Queen Longevity In-Reply-To: <20060202190426.20824.qmail@web53408.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:04 PM 2/2/2006, you wrote: >I have recently heard that the longevity of insturmentally inseminated queens is not very long, normally being two or three months. I would be interested in hearing from those of you who have had experience with II queens. If II queens are done properly they should last just as long as open mated queens. Sue cobey's work as well as several other studies show the same. II queens got a bad rap from poor methods early on and while this hasn't been true for many years they still can't seem to shake the stigma. The II queens I have gotten from Sue over the past several years have all lived at least 2 seasons. Sue will cover all this as part of the class. -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:07:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dann Purvis II Subject: Re: Queen Longevity II In-Reply-To: <20060202190426.20824.qmail@web53408.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mike, >>I have recently heard that the longevity of instrumentally inseminated queens is not very long, normally being two or three months.... II queen longevity/quality is usually directly proportional to the skill level of the inseminator. The rest is genetics, semen handling and queen rearing/care. All things being equal, II queens are just as good as open mated and in many cases even better. I believe Sue has compiled research to prove so. I can honestly say that has been my experience as well. Take the course. We need more well trained Inseminators in the industry. Sue is in my opinion the most talented Inseminator and trainer I know. Come loaded with lots of questions. Good luck and you will find the expense well worth it. I have inseminated thousands of queens and open mated thousands. You have to be touched and dedicated to do II well and for long. If you are the kind of person that can easily see a picture frame that is not square with the lines of the wall you will find it easier than one that doesn't. Anal-retentive perfectionists will find much joy with II bee breeding. Take your time and find things about your developing skill level that makes you happy. Stick with it and don't get discouraged when you have problems-just learn from them. This helps make it enjoyable after a couple years. Turn on the music, fix some tea and take pride in your progress. It can be unbelievably satisfying to pull the honey off a hive of bees headed by a queen that you reared, bred and selected for especially when it is performing better than the open mated queen sitting right beside it. Bees adapt to PROPER selection extremely fast. I am still amazed at how fast they adapt. However, I believe the rapid changes I have witnessed are also directly the result of using II. Not that it is necessary to use II for a breeding program but it can help speed the process up tremendously. As far as cutting costs, one word comes to mind--EBay. Check out Microscope World for a scope. Ask for Jack Ross and tell him what you are using it for. They have sold me a couple set-ups and know exactly what is needed-great service and best price I could find. Go with a Schley for II device-I prefer forceps over the sting hooks. Its hard to beat German engineering. And don't forget the Harbo Syringe. Sue sells both. Take the course-you won't regret it. Sincerely, Dann Purvis Purvis Brothers Apiaries, Inc. 5122 Trackrock Camp Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 (706) 781-3128 (office) dannzann@alltel.net www.purvisbrothersbees.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:52:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Queen Longevity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To All, Have you seen Sue's article in the February "Bee Culture", Jewels for the Queen? Check it out! And yes,yes,YES! I quite concurr with Dan and Tim on Sue's work, I have seen her presentation and the data is real. Longevity is the same, and if done properly its a whole lot longer than one or two years which is important to those folks who requeen at least once every year,or two. Cheers, Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm 330 Irvin Street Reidsville, NC 27320 Tel: 336 342 4490 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 23:16:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: 5.6mm new foundation standard Hi Guys, Erik, a Swedish biobeekeeper, sent me an email concerning brood cell size ranges. So, I decided to go back and measure some brood cell sizes on each of the natural combs in my top bar hive. I measured across ten cells looking for the largest and smallest cell sizes that were used to raise either worker or drone brood on each comb. These max/min ranges reflect the largest/smallest value from the 18 combs. The max/min averages are an average of th max/min values from the 18 combs. Only cells actually containing brood(larva/pupae) were measured. Here's what I found on the 18 combs in my top bar hive: Maximum Worker Cell Size Range 5.12mm to 5.59mm Average 5.33 Minimum Worker Cell Size less than 4.6mm Maximum Drone Cell Size Range 5.87 to 7.29 Average 6.49 Minimum Drone Cell Size Range 5.25 to 6.43 Average 5.93 Bees are naturally quite willing to raise brood in a variety of cell sizes. I'm sure, by now, just about everyone knows my take on this issue. But if not, then check out the small cell beekeeping section of my website. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:42:33 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Animal Antibiotic Found in UK Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Traces of an antibiotic were found in honey sold in the UK Does the article give the country of origin of the honey? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:46:54 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Queen Longevity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I have recently heard that the longevity of insturmentally inseminated >queens is not very long, normally being two or three months. The queens that we use as breeders are II and they last at least 2 to 3 years. Some may only last a short time but hey, so do some open mated queens. After all, how many horses are bred from the best genetic stock and end up in tins of dog food? I find the II queens OK for our purpose as breeders. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:54:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen Longevity In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20060202183356.05320d30@mail.watchtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Don't be too quick to replace an II queen, they contain well established genetics. It might be an isolated case, but a couple of years ago, in GBBG, an II queen of four years of age was doing such a good job that she was removed from the production colony to be preserved in a nuc for further breeding. Much of the myth of shortness of life was caused by poor hygiene and poor methods, many years ago. II is far easier than most beekeepers think, but if you do it in a chicken shed with a knife and fork your results will not be as good as if you had polished tools and clean kit. The degree of cleanliness required is far higher than is needed for a human operating theatre, but can be achieved simply with a pressure cooker and a heated cabinet. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 03:53:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Queen Longevity In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20060202183356.05320d30@mail.watchtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >I have recently heard that the longevity of > insturmentally inseminated queens is not very long, > normally being two or three months. I would be > interested in hearing from those of you who have had > experience with II queens.... "Performance Evaluation of Naturally Mated and Instrumentally Inseminated Honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) Queens in Field Colonies" http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/criareinas/02_iseminacion_artificial_perfomans.pdf Best Wishes, JW __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:13:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Ruzicka Subject: Evaporating Tymol by MiteGone Pads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In several seminars and at the Houston conference I was asked if I knew how the people in the East (East USA – New England and New York) use my pads to dispense Tymol? Unfortunately I do not but I would like to know. According to the rumor they were very successful and happy with the results. I am not surprised as MiteGone pads do deliver very constant evaporation of any liquid in beehives. Therefore, if you know and or use this method please contact me and I will ensure you complete confidentiality and send you some complementary pads in return for your experience. REASON: The problem with existing Tymol products is their location on top of frames. Bees hate anything on top of frames and will propolis it and chew it up to remove it and the ambient temperature make evaporation blast and slow. Placing the pads in bee controlled temperatures and humidity space and using capillary tube and gravity to supply a steady amount of liquid at evaporation surface makes evaporation very uniform and does not aggravate the bees. Also if anyone wishes to try this please give me a call. Bill Ruzicka Bill’s Honey Farm – Home of the MiteGone Formic Acid Treatment Kelowna, British Columbia, CANADA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 00:14:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zach Huang Subject: Almond growers near the Bay Area Dear all, I will be flying to San Francisco (on my way back from China) on Feb 21 and will spend a few days in the surrounding area learning and photographying almond flowers and their pollination. I would like to meet 2-3 growers and beekeepers in that area to learn how the bees are doing for them... Let me know if any one in this list in doing pollination near the Sockton/Sacamento area... I would like to know know the stories from both sides (almond growers and beekeepers). Thanks, Zachary Huang Michigan State University http://www.msu.edu/~bees -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 02:12:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: Queen Longevity Comments: To: Mike Stoops For those of you thinking about starting II, you really don't need to go any course. The video Sue has made is very good and I think most people would learn from it without a teacher present. I bought the video and run it through a number of times until I had learned most of it. Of course you make mistakes in the beginning, but by going back to the video you usually find what you missed. It took me a couple of days to feel confident doing II. Sue were also willing to answer by email the few questions I had at the time. And I agree with others, properly made II queens will live as long as open mated. I found cheap Russian made microscope on Ebay, a bit heavy and clumsy but optics are fine and it works good. Got a few pictures of my setup last summer here: http://beeman.se/biodling/2005/2005_2-nf.htm -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://beeman.se -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 10:48:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harvey Abeille Subject: Re: Queen Longevity Comments: To: Joe Waggle Hello I have been reading your informative discussions for very long. I am interested in instrumental insemination, but have not experience with it. I read the paper your Joe Waggle submits. Interesting to note all queens are marked, so they assume that marking does not affect longevity Herve -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:41:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Smith Subject: Border issues In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060201130008.019eb290@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Border issues: Might help to look these over and then call the regulators themselves. Just a thought (probably a little late though). http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/phpps/pe/Bees.htm Jim Smith State of Jefferson, CA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 07:39:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa www.apitherapynews.com Please Just Show Me the Money, Honey By Ted Keenan, Financial Mail (South Africa), 2/3/2006 Challenging the status quo is never easy. Crispin Jackson found this out the hard way when he developed a beehive that would improve on the mighty Langstroth hive - invented in 1853 by the Rev LL Langstroth and the standard hive of beekeepers around the world. Jackson's design is called the Jackson Horizontal Hive (JHH) and has attracted global recognition as an alternative to the Langstroth. However, the commercial beekeeping industry has been slow to accept it, preferring to stick with conventional standards for producing and extracting honey. Rather than confront the traditional industry head-on, Jackson has shifted his focus to rural beekeepers and is enjoying growing acceptance from African communities. . . -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 20:53:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Save a Hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kathy, >>I have a "Bee Tree."....they have been there for 2 years after the tree was cut down. Do you need to treat them for varroa? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 08:34:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa In-Reply-To: <20060205073952.84d281a5f2f7df0ef38485a84124037d.96a5cfbc7f.wbe@email.email.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit C Hooper wrote: > Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa > www.apitherapynews.com > Jackson's design is called the Jackson Horizontal Hive (JHH) and has > attracted global recognition as an alternative to the Langstroth. It is a top bar hive. Just the construction materials are different. http://www.rupertshoney.co.za/rh/new_jhh.htm is the website, which loaded slowly for me, so be patient. The article is very misleading since you expect a radically different design, but the difference is only materials, as can be seen from the designer's website.. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:04:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harvey Abeille Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa Comments: To: C Hooper >Challenging the status quo is never easy. Crispin Jackson found this out >the hard way when he developed a beehive that would improve on the >mighty Langstroth hive - invented in 1853 by the Rev LL Langstroth and >the standard hive of beekeepers around the world. Hello A polite reminder: just because so and so challenges "the status quo" and meets resistance, -- it doesn't follow that so and so has a really great idea. For every really great idea out there, -- there are ten thousand really bad ones. A hive you can't super up: a very bad idea. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 07:06:25 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What's the big deal about Africa anyway? We all used the Langstroth hive just fine in South Africa. There are several manufacturers of any sort of beekeeping equipment you want right there in Africa, and there has been for more than a century, along with the expertise to use them. If someone really wants to make a difference, then invent something that's theft proof. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:27:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Sturman Subject: Developing PDA record-keeping software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, I have long been noodling with the idea of (yet another) application for a handheld beekeeper record keeping tool. I now have two teams of developers working on this and should have a result by the end of the semester. (I finally, successfully, pitched the idea to my software development classes and found two separate teams to take it on.) I am looking for input as to what, you as a beekeeper, would like to see in an application for a PocketPC PDA. So far the requirements are as follows: * The application must run on a PocketPC and communicate with a desktop PC for analysis (in Excel or similar). * The application would track queen age, hive status, weather, inspection dates, notes, honey, pollen, propolis harvests, various diseases, etc. * The application would be able to track multiple hives in multiple yards. * The user should be able to draw a map of each yard showing the locations of hives to each other. If you have other suggestions, please send them along. At this point everything is possible and I would rather have more input than less. When the project is done, we are likely to put this into the public domain. So if you are interested, now is the time to be heard. There is a bit more detailed requirements being developed but that's the meat of it right now. I would love to hear from anyone interested in putting in their two cents, as well as potential beta testers that are willing to provide meaningful feedback to these two groups. The groups are comprised of Computer Science juniors and seniors at RPI. The class is called Software Design and Documentation and student groups spend the semester developing larger software applications, putting their learned skills of Object-oriented development, research, and coding into a single semester-long project. The groups working on this project are working entirely separately. One group has four students and the other has five. If you would like to participate with them, please send mail as your intentions to john@bluemoonfarm.com. As I do not read the Bee-L religiously, please make sure to copy me off-list as well as allow this thread contribute to the general discussion. Thank you very much. John Sturman Blue Moon Farm Lexington, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:53:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa Hi Guys, >A hive you can't super up: a very bad idea. Well, that depends :>) To date, I haven't found any bee equipment that was designed specifically to meet the bees needs. The bees could care less whether a hive has supers or not. Rather, all bee equipment has been designed to meet a beekeepers needs. And those needs often change through time. And it seems a little strange, that with the variety of climates and situations beekeepers find themselves in, that a one size fits all mentality continues to exist regarding bee equipment. Now, if I had to hang Lang hives up in a tree to avoid predators, fire and theft, I don't think it would take me too long to come up with a better solution :>) Regards Dennis Who after lifting tens of thousands of supers, has found top bar hives are a much better solution for my needs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:30:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe bossom Subject: a new look at bee hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The recent discussion about modifications in bee hives is intriguing = because no has spent much time or money considering alternatives. I wonder what would result if we raised some money for young upcoming = designers to come up with alternatives to the Langstroff model? If nothing else thing of all the great discussions that might emerge = from this list next winter. I'll kick in $10. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:38:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Martin Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A hive you can't super up: a very bad idea. Hello to all, Do any situations exist for a hive that is in a remote area and not accessible at a good time for supers? Thomas Martin -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:02:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harvey Abeille Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa > Do any situations exist for a hive that is in a remote area and not >accessible at a good time for supers? Maybe you should try to re-state that question. What are you asking? About the ideal hive for bees: that is obvious. In Russia they had them for centuries. The bees lived in hollow trees, twenty feet up. The beekeeper had to climb up to get the honey. Ideal for bees, bad for beekeepers. The modern hive is not that much different, really. It's tall and narrow, like a hollow tree. But it can be expanded upwards, unlike a nest in a tree. And it allows the beekeeper complete access, unlike a log hive. Complete access is a double edged sword. Complete access to do good, or to do harm. Depends on why you are there. I doubt a beekeeper will succeed for long without taking care of the bees to a certain extent. Herve -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:33:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wouldn't a log hive or a skep be more to the bees liking? Or what about the cavity in the wall of your house? They seem to thrive in a space 14" wide by 3.5" deep by 8' tall. So, why not a hive like that? You could make it so that you could open it up and cut out what you want to harvest and then close it up again. But, before that we'd have to repeal all of the "Removeable Frame" Laws. So, chuck those ideas out the window. Dennis, what do you see as the bees needs? Didn't Dadant have a frame and coresponding super in which the frame was almost square and therefore gave the queen a vast area to lay in? Do you see any draw backs there? There you go, in your last sentence, putting your needs before the needs of the bees. Mark Berninghausen "D. Murrell" wrote: To date, I haven't found any bee equipment that was designed specifically to meet the bees needs. . Who after lifting tens of thousands of supers, has found top bar hives are a much better solution for my needs. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:40:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: a new look at bee hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Why reinvent the wheel, until we have looked at all of the work already done. There is more to the design that most of us use now a days then the size of the board that L.L.L. had on hand at the time of construction. Modifications have been made to make th "modern" hive user friendly, for the bees and us. So, if you want something different, look to the past. There is a wealth of past examples to choose from as far as different designs are comncerned. And you don't have to pay anyone to design them. All you have to do is look for the illustrations. Let me start you search by recommending Diderot's Encyclopedia of 1660(?), I'm not sure of the year. Great illustrations. The pictures aren't in French. But the text is. Have fun doing as little work as possible. Mark joe bossom wrote: The recent discussion about modifications in bee hives is intriguing because no has spent much time or money considering alternatives. --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:56:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Developing PDA record-keeping software Comments: cc: John Sturman In-Reply-To: <43E76AC5.2060504@bluemoonfarm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6-Feb-06, at 10:27 AM, John Sturman wrote: > > I have long been noodling with the idea of (yet another) > application for a handheld beekeeper record keeping tool. > > I am looking for input as to what, you as a beekeeper, would like > to see in an application for a PocketPC PDA. Hi John and all I am a small beekeeper, and I store all my beekeeping info on one spreadsheet(appleworks) after taking written notes in the beeyard. I believe that the individual hive detail that I record would make my system useless to a larger operator with many yards(as would a system designed for them have info useless to me). Possibly 2 versions of your software would be worthwhile. Following are items I record that are not on your list: daily scale hive weights disease treatment info (Drug, quantity, application method and application date) food given to hive(syrup, pollen subst) hive name (1R - 1st hive in row beside river) bi-weekly varroa counts(24 hr drop) status of honey supers on each hive( full & capped, 1/2 full etc, position on hive) extracting info (hive super(s) came from, quantity liquid, comb honey, refractometer reading, floral source) packing information(date extracted, date packed, number of each size container filled, number of each size in stock, floral source) sales info I know I keep too much information but that is part of my enjoyment of beekeeping. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:03:01 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Sarah and Simon Peacey Subject: Re: Developing PDA record-keeping software In-Reply-To: <43E76AC5.2060504@bluemoonfarm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hive numbers. Number 129 is easier than third from the right in the second row. Good idea to develop a PDA application for beekeeping Simon and Sarah Peacey, Wairua Apiaries, 76 Malone Road, R.D.9 Whangarei, New Zealand. Ph/fax 09-4346344 0210319127 or 0210319129 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:08:07 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Sarah and Simon Peacey Subject: Re: Developing PDA record-keeping software In-Reply-To: <43E76AC5.2060504@bluemoonfarm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Location of apiary/yard: for new workers very useful, apiary number (here in New Zealand each apiary has a registration number. Origin of any brood and honey frames that have gone into a hive (traceback for AFB)and hive number to which donor frames have gone. Simon and Sarah Peacey, Wairua Apiaries, 76 Malone Road, R.D.9 Whangarei, New Zealand. Ph/fax 09-4346344 0210319127 or 0210319129 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:09:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: a new look at bee hives In-Reply-To: <20060206204020.68381.qmail@web32111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6-Feb-06, at 3:40 PM, mark berninghausen wrote: > > So, if you want something different, look to the past. There is a > wealth of past examples to choose from as far as different designs > are comncerned. And you don't have to pay anyone to design them. > All you have to do is look for the illustrations. > Hi Mark and all Also, take a look at the hives used in Europe today. A booth at Apimondia displayed a hive which was rotated by an electric motor to discourage swarming. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:30:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa In-Reply-To: <43E75063.5090002@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote:> Jackson's design is called the Jackson Horizontal Hive (JHH) and has > attracted global recognition as an alternative to the Langstroth. It is a top bar hive. Just the construction materials are different. ....but the difference is only materials, as can be seen from the designer's website.. I haven't investigated the hive thoroughly but from my cursory glances the JHH does differ somewhat from a standard TBH. The frames of the JHH look square and do have wood supports on all four sides. The TBH is trapazoidal in shape with the base significantly more narrow than the top. The frame is constructed of just a top bar, no side nor bottom supports. I'm sure that there are some more small differences but those were some that immediately jumped out at me. Mike Located in lower Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:25:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: a new look at bee hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >If nothing else thing of all the great discussions that might emerge from this list next winter. I'll kick in $10. Not design (well maybe) but construction. I would drop all the joints currently used in constructing bee hives and use in their place the patent Sauder Twist-Lock fastener used in fine furniture. Eight to a hive body. A couple drilled holes is all that's needed to install each piece. If the box ever loosens up a Phillips screw driver will tighten right up. Replace a side of the super in about five minutes. Those on the list which build furniture might have used the Twist-lock fastener. My experience comes from putting together Sauder furniture. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:00:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa In-Reply-To: <20060206203351.72256.qmail@web32101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit mark berninghausen wrote:Didn't Dadant have a frame and coresponding super in which the frame was almost square and therefore gave the queen a vast area to lay in? Seems I remember discussions about a hive like that, square frames. It had frames as long as the current ones but were as deep as they were wide. The thought that immediately came to mind was, "How would you like to lift that sucker when it was full of honey?". It would be as much heavier than the current standard brood chamber as the Illinois super is to the shallow super. I, for one, would NOT want to lift that thing. Those hives were in use for a while but as far as I can tell never came into standard use. Mike Located in lower Alabama (LA) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 20:42:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Hibernation diet - Honey In-Reply-To: <20060203115338.67695.qmail@web34308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all, Have not had the time to investigate further, but thought that an article on the "Hibernation Diet" as found on the Red river Apiarist Association (Winnipeg and area, Manitoba) web site might be an interesting read for some. > http://www.geocities.com/ve4tg/ Click on "Newsletter", then open up the Feb. 2006 offering. Regards, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 21:01:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Hibernation diet In-Reply-To: <43E3285D.3000105@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to the Moderator - but a more direct link for those intrigued! > http://www.hibernationhoney.com/ Is this the reason why Bears loose weight during winter!!!!! Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:16:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa In-Reply-To: <20060207020057.56186.qmail@web53402.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Me neither, Mike. And can you imagine how heavy they would be if you had 12 frames in those suckers. They were not only almost square in the up/down, front/back, but side to side too. Ugh! Not me, thank you. I was just pointing out that things had been done to get us to this point. Just like the way that I feel about TBHs. You want 'em, keep 'em, no problem from me. But they aren't practical for the commercial operators. The follks that aren trying to make a living with their bees. Why don't Dee and Ed Lusby have them? I inspected a hive in Holmes County, Ohio, about 21 years ago, that was made up of 3 twelve frame medium depth supers. That was enough of a bear. And I was much stronger then. Mark Mike Stoops wrote: The thought that immediately came to mind was, "How would you like to lift that sucker when it was full of honey?". I, for one, would NOT want to lift that thing. --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 20:43:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa In-Reply-To: <20060207031604.72650.qmail@web32110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark writes: Why don't Dee and Ed Lusby have them? Reply: Because with all the work we have been doing to retool a commercial operation back to clean sustainable field management without any treatments at all for mite control, you cannot do it using TBHs commercially for production, or migratory work for pollenation to feed a nation. Also this isn't africa here in the USA where you can hang hives in trees where ever you want, nor hire workers to take care of them as cheap either. Though they are cheaper to handmake, and can initially get a beekeeper into sustainable beekeeping with mite control feasibility. So for hobbyists it is okay, and some sideliners with plenty of time wanting cut-comb honey. But to go bigger.....then the game changes,and beekeepers have to think about what they want to do. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 22:14:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa In-Reply-To: <20060206203351.72256.qmail@web32101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mark and Everyone, > > There you go, in your last sentence, putting your needs before the needs of the bees Well, that's what happens when one requires the bees to live in the beekeeper's equipment, for the beekeeper's convenience, rather than in the tree itself. :>))) The focus on commercial beekeeping is important for commercial beekeepers. But thinking that another type of focus is of lesser merit and somehow inferior to a commercial point of view is typical of the one size fits all thinking. The discussion concerning square frames illustrates my point. The entire emphasis on that discussion centers on what a beekeeper would be comfortable lifting. Yet, although a single deep hive can be lifted, it's neither easy nor comfortable. And how many beekeepers run a hive in a single deep? Want to try lifting a double or a triple hive, ready for winter, by hand? How many commercial beekeepers still lift any hives by hand anymore? Mark, I hope you're not still lifting and throwing everything by hand. And there's not a single thought about the impact of the shape/size of the box on the colony itself, only on the impacts to the beekeeper. The bee is a very adaptable creature and can function in many circumstances in spite of our enlightened equipment and management. But in other areas, our standard practices, can negatively impact the bees. Today, a commercial focus requires that a beekeeper optimize the moving of boxes and to a much lesser extent the subtleties of the bees themselves. In this area, an amateur can have a great advantage over the commercial guy. He can have the time and energy to focus primarily on the bees themselves and to a lesser extent on the moving of boxes. And he can try options that are way beyond anything an economic feasibility study would promote as feasible. Concerning lifting supers, a smaller super is much easier to lift than a larger one. But maybe there are other alternatives that don't involve lifting any supers at all. And not lifting a super is much easier than lifting any super, no matter how shallow :>))) Regards Dennis Starting throwing 8 frame deeps, 5 high by 5 across in 1968 Continued throwing 9 frame deeps 5 high by 5 across in 1976 Started tossing 9 frame shallows and mediums 9 high to 12 high by 5 across in 1993 Stopped throwing all supers in 2000 and liking it much better -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 20:54:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa In-Reply-To: <20060207031604.72650.qmail@web32110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark, Bob and others: Okay, get out you calculator now: Say alternative to langstroth hives gained acceptance in USA. How many would be needed to pollenate the Almonds? How much longer if any would it take to get them to orchards for pollenation? Would transportation costs vary much from what it now costs to transport langs? Would insurance differences cost more for transporting due to comb handling differences and more possible replacement needs for queens? Is transport for pollenation services even a reality to be considered? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:44:23 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Hibernation diet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> http://www.hibernationhoney.com/ > > Is this the reason why Bears loose weight during winter!!!!! Not sure but anyone buying their honey will lose weight fast as they won't have any money in their pocket At 5 pound 75 p for a 454g (1lb) jar that equates to about AUD$13.70 or just over US$10. I know it is Scottish blossom honey but who is making the profit? The beekeeper? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? Where you can buy good Aussie honey for a lot less. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:32:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa In-Reply-To: <43E82CB2.3030808@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There seems to be an assumption that the Langstroth design of over 100 years ago has not changed. It obviously has, but the underlying idea has stayed fairly constant- movable frames, bee space and ease of harvesting honey. Every one of the offshoots borrows from those fundamentals. What has happened is supposed standardization of dimensions so there is a "standard hive" (deeps and shallow supers), but if you actually try to mix manufacturers, things are not quite as advertised. So, even there, things are different. Frames are different. Everything above and below the brood box is different. Even the boxes are different and many beekeepers have a mix of box sizes or some who use one size. Commercial operators change many parts of the hive for easy of transport and ventilation. Northern beekeepers can have different setups than Southern. Then there are people like me who make their own. You can have ten frame, nine frame and even eight frame hives, not to mention nucs. Materials differ: you see various woods, metals, and plastics used. I have seen and have read about many different hive designs. To think that beekeepers who use the Langstroth design are stuck in a static universe does not recognize reality. It does, however, tend toward biases and prejudices of those who have found a "better way" which is not a universal better way but suited for their own situation, per the article. Some of the ideas and designs are fantastic. They work but are not practical for most. The Langstroth design is the closest thing we have to a universal, one-size-fits-all, hive design. I admire the genius that was behind something that has stood up for so long and been so universally accepted. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:53:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: a new look at bee hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline We do a fair amount of export business, so I have become a little acquainte= d with bee hive sizes elsewhere. In England, Langstroth size is the exception. English hive manufacturers treasure their 'unique' sizes as they are largely protected from import competition for not only hives but all the accompanying equipment such as queen excluders, tops, bottoms, etc. In France beekeepers largely use Modified Dadant deeps (more on this later) for brood boxes and Modified Dadant 'mediums' for supers. In Australia, NZ, Israel, and most of South America the predominate size is what we call Langstroth. With the exception of France, most of the Western European countries on the continent and in Scandanavia use what we call Langstroth measurements. I'= m not sure about Ireland and Scotland, except that they somehow use a fair amount of Ross Round equipment (which is sized for what we call Langstroth)= . On the east and west coasts of the United States Langstroth sizes are prett= y standard. However, in the midwest a lot of beekeepers use Modified Dadant equiptment. I started beekeeping by buying used equipment from an engineering professor and he also used Modified Dadant. Some beekeepers call it the 'best' size for bees...but it is really heavy stuff. Front to back the measurements are the same as Langstroth. But the boxes hold two more frames, and frames for the deeps are 12" wide. A deep full o= f honey will weigh about 110 lbs. But, with 11 or 12 frames these provide lots of room to control swarming as well as lots of honey for the winter. = I understand that those who use these deeps do no reversing and overwinter in one box. Modified Dadant supers are also 'jumbo'. I forget exactly the sizes, but they also hold 11/12 frames and are almost as wide as Langstroth deeps. I recall they hold about 70 lbs of honey. Finally, here in the US there are a fair number of 7 1/2" supers used on Langstroth equipment. I discovered them when I bought out an old timer and subsequently found out a fair number of commercial beekeepers were using them. They hold about 40 lbs of honey, compared to 30 for a standard 'medium' and 50 for a standard deep. The last I knew (which is pretty recent) Dadant still made frames and foundation for the Modified Dadant sizes (deeps and supers) as well as for the 7 1/2" supers. But they are not advertised in the catalog. Lots of suppliers will custom make the Modified Dadant deeps and mediums, but only for special order of reasonably large quantities. I know of someone who is retiring and has better than 1,000 7 1/2" supers (with drawn comb) for sale. What I have seen are in really good condition with good looking comb. This guy is in Western NY. Anyone interested can contact me privately and I will provide contact information. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:43:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: a new look at bee hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lloyd & all > In England, Langstroth size is the exception. English hive manufacturers > treasure their 'unique' sizes as they are largely protected from import > competition While I can't speak for the whole of the UK appliance trade, I find that statement a little unusual, as up until the end of the 1990's quite a proportion of UK hives were in fact manufactured under contract in USA by AI Root and others. It is not that Langstroth equipment will not work in UK, as a number of larger outfits do use it, but most of the hives in UK and Ireland are of what we call National size, simply because they were designed around the bee that inhabits them. Many of the hives in Europe are also of similar size to the British one, but are not interchangeable. If however you wish to keep Italianised bees then the British box is too small, but most beekeepers wish to get a honey crop, which is less likely with Italian strains in some parts of UK. Although I no longer manufacture beekeeping equipment, the idea of protectionism did not even enter my head when I did. However in fairness we did manufacture Langstroth and Dadant sized equipment for those 2 or 3 percent of UK beekeepers that used such sizes. While you claim that Langstroth is 'standard' in USA there is very little true 'interchangeability' between manufacturers. http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/lang.html gives some of the variations found in various places, all of which claim to be 'Langstroth Standard' Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:50:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Martin Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do any situations exist for a hive that is in a remote area and not >accessible at a good time for supers? >Maybe you should try to re-state that question. What are you asking? Herve, I can give it a try. What about taking a few colonies a few mountains over, into an off the beaten path valley that has white clover that was planted for whitetail deer. I have not done so because of not being able to put supers on when needed. Myself I don't have any plans to try the JHH but it would seem like a situation where they could be used. Especially for those folks who don't move their colonies any during the year. Here in this part of Pennsylvania there are quite a number of beekeepers who have 1 to 5 hives and the hives are never moved. For most of them the goal is honey for themselves and a few friends. The thought going thru my mind also thinks of these folks. IF this hive is more ideal for the bees, Subtract the commercial pollination concerns, add in the hobby beekeeper with their specific concerns and what do you get? Thomas Martin -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:57:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harvey Abeille Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa >The Langstroth design is the closest thing we have to a universal, >one-size-fits-all, hive design. I admire the genius that was behind >something that has stood up for so long and been so universally accepted. Amen to that. Compare that to so-called standards of today: There was the vinyl record which was standard for music for about 50 years, then cassette tapes maybe 25 years, and after 20 some years CDs may be on the way out. 20 years from now will anybody be able to play any of these? But you will probably still have bees in hives on the Langstroth plan, and you'll probably be smokin' 'em with a smoker like Quinby used. You might even keep your records in a notebook, though maybe not. Herve -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:28:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: a new look at bee hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dave, of course, is entirely correct when he says "While you claim that Langstroth is 'standard' in USA there is very little true 'interchangeability' between manufacturers." While the differences are small, typically less than 1/2 inch (~ 1 cm), it does not take much to violate 'bee space' and cause a mess with burr comb. I am of the opinion that one of the reasons for all the small variations is to try to keep customers from changing suppliers! It is interesting that hives sold in England were formerly made in the US. I didn't know that, but I am aware that much of the wood used today is imported from the US. While I know that much of the wood in Sweden, Norway and Finland is spruce (not pine), and therefore not really suitable for bee hives, I am surprised that there is not ample pine in Eastern Europe. Around here, in upstate NY, there are ample supplies of high quality (wide) White Pine as well as healthy and growing Amish communities. It seems as i= f every other Amish family has a sawmill and if one can properly dry and plan= e the wood it is a comparative bargain. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:38:01 -0800 Reply-To: port128@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Porter Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Beekeepers seem to be more adventurous internationally, Jackson is in South Africa and the Europeans have been far more willing to experiment. The 12"x12"x12" Alpine hive (same capacity as a medium) supposedly works better at higher elevations and bears more resemblance to the hollow tree than a Lang. The popularity of styrofoam hives supports the premise that it helps with overwintering in severe climates. There are a bunch of ideas, some of which seem loony but others which are improvements. The acid test for a product is acceptance, and if the Jackson Horizontal Hive were available in this country, how many beekeepers or hobbyists would buy it? Assume a fully functional hive of two deeps/two mediums or five mediums. Add the cost of bottom boards, top boards and protective gear to support two hives and a hobbyist getting started in beekeeping has to spend around $500. It seems like a JHH could cost as little as half that. Philosophically, all of those who write about adding TBHs or switching to TBHs from Langs comment on how much it has improved their beekeeping. That can't be bad, and it is interesting that all of them in severe climes claim their TBHs overwinter better than Langs. As to the JHH, I agree with Mike in lower Alabama that it is basically a double wide with full width tops. Bob Harrison mentioned improved construction and the JHH has that for sure. The evolutionary improvements make an impressive list of features. - Construction materials are lighter and stronger than wood - Assembly is trivial, a single sheet scored like a cardboard box w/wood or pipe reinforcement on corners of long side - Manufactured as a single piece by cardboard box machinery - Langstroth sized frames with 1 1/4" wide top bars - Frames made of dowels and glued together w/o nails or screws, which are far stronger than a typical frame - Size is slightly larger than a double wide deep - Hive can be supered like a double wide if it suits you (probably requires side reinforcement if more than two stacked) - 25 frames/hive - Can be located out of reach of most predators - Uses handles to simplify carrying, moving etc - Not theft proof but hoisting a hive 20' in the air would sure be a strong deterrent - Suitable for pollination because they are strong, light and easy to manhandle. These look like the kind of things Langstroth himself would have tried. They are definitely the product of a guy who has found ways to improve Langs in his environment. However, unless dowels in Africa are a fraction of the price here the frames seem like an unneeded luxury. They must cost 5-10 times more than those used here. Jackson is not working with mild mannered Italians, he only has hot bees, and messing with the hive can set them into a frenzy. Removing the lid does not cause much disturbance because the full width top bars are a solid ceiling. That reduces the risk of boilover and he has a neat trick to better the odds: by using light smoke from a tin can suspended below the entrance he keeps the guard bees focused there while working from the rear to pull the honey-filled combs. Hanging hives from a tree seems unnecessary in this country, only those beekeepers plagued with ants, skunks, bears and other wildlife would have more interest than the rest of us. It's also interesting that as a commercial beekeeper, Jackson does not seem to have a queen operation. It is implied that he relies on swarms to populate the hives in the trees. JP -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:41:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: CNN Daily News Clips :Killer Bees Found in Florida MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CNN Daily News Clips :Killer Bees Found in Florida http://us.video.aol.com/video.index.adp?mode=2&pmmsid=1462724 Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 21:31:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa Hi Dee and Everyone, >Say alternative to langstroth hives gained acceptance in USA... I've kept track of the hits on my website since it's inception. The beekeeping part of the site is basically divided into three sections: General Beekeeping, Small Cell, and Top Bar Hives. Until this last year, the majority of hits were connected with pages concerning oxalic and powdered sugar treatments. But over this last year, the emphasis has shifted to the top bar section. It now gets about 60% of the hits, with the treatments and then small cell getting the remainder. If I remember correctly, there are about 1600 commercial beekeepers in the US. But there are estimates that there are 100 times that many hobby or amatuer beekeepers. It seems that, there might be a chance, that the priorities of the majority of beekeepers could be a little different than those of the commercial guys. Not too many of them are concerned about saving agriculture by migrating to California and pollinating almonds. And after this year, there might not be as many commercial guys interesting in doing the Almond thing either ;>) The modern Lang hive is a good hive. It's functional, somewhat standardized, and beekeepers have lots of experience with it. But it's not the only option available for beekeepers. And its certainly not the best option in some circumstances. Some commercial beekeepers might be suprised to hear this. I remember seeing a old photo of a crowded street in China. The people all had the same kind of pants on. They were the same style, the same color, the same material, and from the looks of things the same size. Now those pants were pretty functional, somewhat standardized, could be easily swapped and were apparently economic to produce. They were probably good pants. But for some reason they just didn't catch on in America. And I bet almost no one in China wears them anymore either. When given a choice people will choose what fits their needs. Until recently in the US beekeeping scene, most beekeepers simply didn't know that they had any kind of choice. I didn't. So when I stopped wrangling bees for money and went amatuer, I just sort of miniaturized what I had known as a commercial beekeeper, tiny extract, manual uncapping knife, little bottling tanks,etc. But after that, I found that running tbhs presented a whole different dimension/focus to beekeeping. I hadn't experienced this with the standard equipment/commercial experience, even in there miniaturized form. And from my perspective it's a much more suitable focus for amatuer beekeeping. In fact it could open the beekeeping door to some people who would not otherwise be interested or able to keep bees. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 21:53:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Some questions for NY Beekeepers on Bee-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Who do you want inspecting your bees? Do you want a beginner or someone with 20 years as an Inspector and more years a a beekeeper? Do you want someone who suffers the low price of honey and the frustrations of the pests that plague your chosen vocation? Or someone who doesn't have the ability to empathise with you fully, because they don't live beekeeping? I know that there are more beekeepers on Bee-L than are obvious. I've met some, out in the world and have had some e-mail me privately. So, if you'd just as soon keep your status as an observer (like I was for two years), e-mail me directly, please. Let me know your opinion. If things go the way they appear to be going, nine out of the fourteen Inspectors from last season won't be able to return to work, unless they are willing to give up their bees. And two weren't going to be asked back, for poor performance reasons. So, that would leave three, to cover the state. One in the Buffalo area, one between Rochester and Oswego and one on Long Island. Supposedly there is a guy from the Ithaca area who wants to work. So, that would make four. So, what do you think should be done? Nothing? Or something? Let me know, please. Thank you, Mark --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 21:54:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Some questions for NY Beekeepers on Bee-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Who do you want inspecting your bees? Do you want a beginner or someone with 20 years as an Inspector and more years a a beekeeper? Do you want someone who suffers the low price of honey and the frustrations of the pests that plague your chosen vocation? Or someone who doesn't have the ability to empathise with you fully, because they don't live beekeeping? I know that there are more beekeepers on Bee-L than are obvious. I've met some, out in the world and have had some e-mail me privately. So, if you'd just as soon keep your status as an observer (like I was for two years), e-mail me directly, please. Let me know your opinion. If things go the way they appear to be going, nine out of the fourteen Inspectors from last season won't be able to return to work, unless they are willing to give up their bees. And two weren't going to be asked back, for poor performance reasons. So, that would leave three, to cover the state. One in the Buffalo area, one between Rochester and Oswego and one on Long Island. Supposedly there is a guy from the Ithaca area who wants to work. So, that would make four. So, what do you think should be done? Nothing? Or something? Let me know, please. Thank you, Mark --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 09:13:12 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: a new look at bee hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lloyd & all > It is interesting that hives sold in England were formerly made in > the US. I didn't know that, but I am aware that much of the wood > used today is imported from the US. For some reason timber is available much more cheaply in US than in UK and often in wide boards (which are difficult to find in UK). The timber that is imported to UK from Europe seems to have a higher density of knots and shakes, which means that a great deal of selection has to go on to get the right piece for the right purpose. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 09:34:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Almond bloom There is a very unusual heat wave going here in Central Coast area of Ca. In this picture which I took yesterday, Feb. 7 you can see that the pollinator variety of almonds are already in full bloom. http://www.pbase.com/beekeeper/image/55849886 And one of my bees doing it's job in that orchard http://www.pbase.com/beekeeper/image/55842396 I saw one Blue Orchard Bee, still there after a three year experiment, but just one and the bamboo bank where they live isn't active at all. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:04:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] Developing PDA record-keeping software Comments: cc: john@BLUEMOONFARM.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This message was originally submitted by jerry.bromenshenk@MSO.UMT.EDU to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry Bromenshenk [mailto:jerry.bromenshenk@mso.umt.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:38 AM > To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Developing PDA record-keeping software > > > At 08:27 AM 2/6/2006, you wrote: > > This system is currently available, with web-enabled > features, from groups in Canada and in New Zealand. > A simpler version was made available by a 4-H girl > about five years ago. One of our partner firms in > the U.S. has a > ruggedized, handheld PDA with > camera, GPS, and build-in lasers for measuring > things. > > I suggest that you have your classes search for > competing products before they re-invent the wheel. > > Cheers > > Jerry > > > > >Hello everyone, > > > > I now have two teams of developers working on > > the idea of (yet another) application for a > > handheld beekeeper record keeping tool. > > John Sturman [john@BLUEMOONFARM.COM] -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:56:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: pollen trapping I have been trapping pollen for 3-4 years and am curious about other beekeepers experiences I use the Sundance traps which work well. I am not able to put the trap into bypass mode though as drones get caught inside and we end up with a stinking mess of dead bees inside the trap. Its no surprise that trapping pollen can be hard on a colony so I have been moving towards trapping for 6 weeks and then removing the trap for the rest of the season since bypass does not seem to work and the work of re-installing the trap is well too much work. I found if I trap for 3 months or more (live in central Mn) honey production drops and several hives end up queenless. Surprisingly though the "survivior" hives that have had traps on them for 3 months or more appear to winter just as well as hives with no pollen traps. My other management dillema is the drying of pollen. The health food store pollen sold in the area looks and tastes like sawdust and I suspect it originates from China. My customers like my pollen if I freeze dry it in paper bags and the resultant pollen has some residual moisture in it. Freezing also kills any moth or other larva, ants etc.. I'm interested in how to measure the moisture content and what is a good benchmark for dryness. I have read articles in the Bee Journal etc concerning pollen trapping but I never felt I had a good understanding of how pollen trapping affects the colonies life cycle and nectar collecting activities. Any comments concerning pollen trapping would be appreciated. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 14:32:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: US Honey Board Requests Research Proposals on Honey and Disease Prevention MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Honey Consumption and Disease Prevention: Request for Research Proposals Deadline: March 15, 2006 Project Description: The National Honey Board is soliciting proposals from research institutions to study the efficacy of honey consumption on disease prevention/risk reduction. Conditions of particular interest include (but are not limited to) heart disease, gastrointestinal disorders, glucose intolerance/insulin resistance/type 2 diabetes, hypertension, and obesity. As part of this project, researchers would be expected to produce the following: (1) a presentation of the findings at an appropriate scientific meeting and, if appropriate (2) the publication of the findings in a scientific, technical or trade journal. . . See: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 17:46:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Bacillus Species conofirmed in 28 out of 70 honey samples Comments: To: deealusby1@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all: Found this interesting at: http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/ Argentinian Honey Bacillus Species Highly Prevalent in Food Products in Argentina Lab Business Week, 2/12/2006 According to recent research from Argentina, "The prevalence of Bacillus spp. in 279 samples of different food products collected in Argentina was studied. "Bacillus spp. was confirmed in 28 out of 70 honey samples, 29 out of 29 flour samples, 15 out of 50 cheese samples, and 30 out of 30 spice samples, while Bacillus spp. was not found in fresh anchovy." "Among the 70 honeys studied," said M.O. Iurlina and colleagues at the University of Nacl Mar Plata in Buenos Aires, "Bacillus cereus, Bacillus pumilus, Bacillus laterosporus and Paenibacillus larvae subspp. larvae showed an incidence of 23, 4, 8 and 38%, respectively. . . Iurlina and colleagues published their study in LWT - Food Science and Technology (Prevalence of Bacillus spp. in different food products collected in Argentina. LWT-Food Sci Technol, 2006;39(2):105-110). For additional information, contact M.O. Iurlina, University of Nacl Mar Plata, Faculty Ciencias Exactas & Nat, Dept. Quim, Funes 3350, RA-7600 Mar Del Plata, Buenos Aires, Argentina. Publisher contact information for the journal LWT - Food Science and Technology is: Elsevier Science BV, PO Box 211, 1000 AE Amsterdam, Netherlands. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 21:59:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Alternative to Langstroth Hive Gaining Acceptance in Africa In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7-Feb-06, at 9:31 PM, D. Murrell wrote: > But over this last year, the emphasis has shifted > to the top bar section. It now gets about 60% of the hits, with the > treatments and then small cell getting the remainder. Hi Dennis and all At Apimondia this past summer, the winning beekeeping invention was a radial extractor that was hand operated and designed for use with Top Bar Hives. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 20:37:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Some questions for NY Beekeepers on Bee-L In-Reply-To: <20060208055355.31169.qmail@web32103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Almost 24 hours and no reponse. People must be getting their thought in line, I guess. Or maybe you all are just tired of this topic? If so, say so. Just remember, if you don't support a program or support changing that program then it's like not voting. You don't have the right to gripe if things aren't the way you want them to be. But, at least some of you will be happy because of this, right? Mark Berninghausen mark berninghausen wrote: Who do you want inspecting your bees? --------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:28:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Some questions for NY Beekeepers on Bee-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline In response to Mark's questions, I'd say: 1. I'd rather not have an inspection program than have one similar to that which has existed in recent years. 2. If we 'have' to have an inspection program, I'd like inspectors who are not engaged in commercial beekeeping or make more than a minor portion of their income from selling honeybee products. I think that most inspectors are good, honest, and knowledgable people and beekeepers. But even one that is otherwise taints the entire pool. IMHO w= e should not rely on the Dept. of Ag. to sort out those who would abuse their position and should instead have a ban on employing those with a conflict o= f interest. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 09:03:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harvey Abeille Subject: Re: Bacillus Species conofirmed in 28 out of 70 honey samples MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >According to recent research from Argentina, "The >prevalence of Bacillus spp. in 279 samples of different >food products collected in Argentina was studied. I don't get your point. Do you suppose honey in other countries has bacteria and yours doesn't? You'd better check. The only way honey wouldn't have live bacteria & yeasts is if it has been over-heated. Or worse yet: irradiated. What makes raw organic food special is that it may contain many living organisms, unlike irradiated food or food that is heavily sprayed with chemicals. got to: The National Honey Board http://www.honey.com/pressrm/IFT/2003/safety_quality.html Bacteria Naturally Present in Honey May Enhance Safety and Quality of Foods Honey exhibits well-known resistance to microbial spoilage. The resistance has been attributed to a variety of characteristics of honey, mainly the sugar and hydrogen peroxide contents of honey. However, some honey samples exhibit additional antimicrobial activity that could not be explained by known honey components. Researchers at Cornell University have theorized that this antimicrobial activity as being produced by the naturally-occurring bacteria in honey. They presented their findings today at the annual IFT meeting in Chicago. Bacteria were isolated from six types of U.S. honey and tested for activity against nine foodborne pathogens and spoilage microbes. The bacteria isolated from honey had significant anti-fungal and anti-bacterial activity. Listeria monocytogenes was the most sensitive bacterial pathogen to the honey bacterial isolates. Researchers speculate that some of honey’s antimicrobial activity may be due to compounds produced by the bacteria naturally found in honey. These compounds, when characterized, may have potential for food safety and food quality applications. Paper #29G-2, Antimicrobial activity exhibited by bacteria isolated from selected US honey samples, by H Lee, MA Mundo, JJ Churey, OI Padilla-Zakour and R Worobo, presented July 13, 2003. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 14:13:43 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Contours of cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I am going to make a request for information that some of you may have squirrelled away on your computers, but before I do, I am going to 'beat about the bush' a bit to explain why I want it... I have recently given a lecture about the sizes of cells and the effects on the bees, while I was preparing it, I approached Dennis Murrell to cadge some of his photos that were used in his extensive measuring routine (I wanted to explain to my audience the need to look deeper into the fine structure of a nest), but Dennis informs me that he removed the data from his site some time ago and then scrapped the data at the time he changed to a new computer. The loss of this data on his website has prompted several UK beekeepers to ask me if it is possible to reconstruct the data from fragments cached in various places on the web. This is because we are just getting some interest stirred up that may lead to some extra research being done and showing what Dennis achieved, may just about swing it. I have had some success and recovered some of the text from the 'Wayback machine', but I am asking if you would look in your favourites for any saved pages or images from any of the following site URLs http://www.geocities.com/usbwrangler/ http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/bee/ http://www.websamba.com/topbarguy/ http://tbhbguy.ocatch.com/ http://fire.prohosting.com/topbarguy/ http://snow.prohosting.com/topbarguy/ I should say as well that Dennis has agreed for me to ask and that any web pages that result from the re-construction will be submitted for Tennis's approval. If you have any fragments or files, no matter how small, please forward them to... dave.cushman@lineone.net Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 09:54:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Bacillus Species conofirmed in 28 out of 70 honey samples MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tests carried out by "Le Club Api" here in Quebec a good few years ago indicated that about 60% of members' honey was positive for BP (then BL) whilst actual detections in the hive was only around 2% of the colonies. You can draw many inaccurate conclusions from such results. I think the problem here is with contaminated honey from areas that may have PL that is resistant to current legal antibiotics. There must be a great deal of empty, unwashed honey barrels from Argentina being sold all over the province of Quebec putting Quebec colonies at great risk of acquiring resistant AFB. The same must apply to many honey importing regions of the world. Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 09:36:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: MN Apiary Law In-Reply-To: <20060209043759.21323.qmail@web32101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Relative to recent discussions on inspections and such, perhaps the readers of Bee-L would be interested in the contents of a letter that I (and presumably all registered beekeepers in Minnesota) received this week. "The Minnesota Department of Agriculture (MDA) has recently been informed that there is interest in the repeal of the Apiary Law, Minnesota Statutes Chapter 19 (2005). If you are in support of the repeal of this statute (elimination of the state program), or in favor of keeping the statute (retaining the state program), please indicate your opinion by checking off the appropriate box and returning the enclosed postage-paid post card by February 17, 2006. In a September 2005 meeting with apiary representatives, we were informed that the Board of Directors of the Minnesota Honey producers Association (MHPA) had previously voted to seek repeal of the apiary statute. In addition, we were informed by MHPA, that the Apiary Advisory Committee is in support of this position." This is an exact quote of the first two paragraphs of the letter. It continues with a brief review of the statute and the statement, "MDA is interested in ascertaining that an apiary law repeal is an initiative of the industry as a whole." The only comment I'll make right now is that I find it amusing that they've "recently been informed" of a "September 2005 meeting". -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 10:28:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Wilson Subject: Re: Developing PDA record-keeping software Comments: cc: john@BLUEMOONFARM.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been developing a beekeeping log database with access. Your students may want to look at it and get some ideas on the database design and entry methods. It tracks individual hives organized in groups. Its not close to finished yet, but the data entry part is close. Its avaliable for non-commercial purposes on my website below. If you have any questions about it feel free to email me at my4acres@bellsouth.net http://web.utk.edu/~wu4you/My%204%20Acres/beekeeping.htm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 09:55:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Some questions for NY Beekeepers on Bee-L In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd Spear wrote:IMHO we should not rely on the Dept. of Ag. to sort out those who would abuse their position and should instead have a ban on employing those with a conflict of interest. Lloyd, I agree but with one cavet. The inspectors should be paid a salary which would support them and their families at the level which the degree of intricacy of their job would entail. In other words, not at the level of a ditch digger nor at the level of a college professor. With the degree of education, continuing education, physical work, long hours, etc. that the job entails, they should be adequately compensated for that work to the degree that they can adequately support a family, not on a luxury scale but not on a subsistance scale either. Alternate work, along with continuing education would need to be provided during the off time during the winter season. You cannot expect the inspectors to be qualified, dedicated individuals if they can't earn a living during the time in which they can't work as inspectors due to cold weather. I feel I'm not adequately explaining my position but right now this is the best I can come up with. Mike Located in LA - Lower Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 14:05:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Some questions for NY Beekeepers on Bee-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Mike Stoops makes some good points concerning compensation of inspectors. Mark B should correct me if I am incorrect, but in rough terms today's NYS inspectors earn roughly $14 an hour, plus medical coverage and pension. I think disability is also included. The ongoing issue is that the inspectors are only employed 5-6 months. I think this cuts down on or eliminates benefits such as vacation, sick time, personal time, paid holidays, etc. and means they must rely on unemployment insurance for the 'off' months. (Which they might not be legally entitled to collect if they also 'run a business' (as beekeepers or as honey packers.) I think in some other states there is a State Apiarist or similar position and only that person is employed for 12 months, with the inspectors also being seasonal. To me, the wages and benefits paid during the working season seems roughly adequate. Certainly well above NYS defined poverty levels. (At least one NYS organization that is committed to paying a 'living wage', has set the 'living wage' level at $9 an hour (here in Albany). If we could somehow get the amount of money budgeted for the inspection program into the hands of the Extension people at Cornell, I think NYS coul= d have one great beekeeping extension program that could really 'help' beekeepers in many aspects of their operation. Given all that goes on at Cornell in beekeeping I think that might give good summer 'inspection coverage' plus providing 2-3 'inspectors' 12 months employment. Realistically, I don't think the above suggestion has a chance in hell. Bu= t it is too bad that it doesn't. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 14:40:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: pollen trapping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline *Concerning Brian's questions on pollen trapping:* * * *1.* *"I am not able to put the trap into bypass mode though as drones get caught inside and we end up with a stinking mess of dead bees inside the trap."* * Interesting. I had not heard of that. I run about 50 traps during the summer and find that hives can be idiosyncratic to them. For example, I us= e screen bottom boards and on a few hives, I will find hundreds of drones under the SBB but most will have none.* * My suggestion is that you 'try again' to use the front board to turn th= e trap on and off. When you push the board down to turn off collection do it in mid-afternoon when all or most drones will be off flying.* *2.* *"**If I trap for 3 months or more (live in central Mn) hone= y production drops and several hives end up queenless."* *In my opinion, what is going on is that your hives are swarming or superseding and the just-mated queens cannot get back into the hives.* * * *You have to watch for this. When a beekeeper is collecting pollen daily, she gets to 'expect' a certain amount from each hive. When that suddenly drops in half or lower, it is a sure sign of a swarm having left. When I see that, I immediately put the front board down to bypass collection. In several days, a virgin queen will leave for mating AND BE ABLE TO GET BACK IN. Two weeks after the bypass board has been put in place, check the broo= d nest for eggs. If they are there, start collecting pollen again. If not, check again in a week.* * * *3.* *"Surprisingly though the "survivor" hives that have had traps on them for 3 months or more appear to winter just as well as hives with no pollen traps."* * * *Yep, that is the way it should be!* * * *4.* *"I'm interested in how to measure the moisture content and what is a good benchmark for dryness."* * * *If you rub fresh pollen between your thumb and forefinger, it will smudge. Your pollen is dry enough (and not overly dry) if you can gently rub it between thumb and forefinger and it stays in a ball without smudging.* * * *5.* *"I never felt I had a good understanding of how pollen trapping affects the colonies life cycle and nectar collecting activities."= * * * *Read Tom Seeley's book The Wisdom of the Hive. He describes the triggers for pollen collection, how and why pollen is used by the bees, pollen storage, and the conditions under which bees stop collecting pollen. Brief= ly, bees do not store wildly excessive amounts of pollen (as they do honey), bu= t instead only collect 'what they need plus a small amount of inventory'.* * * *I interpret this to mean that if we collect pollen it just triggers bees t= o collect more and, since both pollen and nectar is collected on the same trip, pollen collection has no detrimental effect on honey production.* * * *I think Brian asked many thoughtful questions, and I hope I have been helpful. * -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 15:34:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: MN Apiary Law MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To the List, Steve Bonnie writes” In a September 2005 meeting with apiary representatives, we were informed that the Board of Directors of the Minnesota Honey producers Association (MHPA) had previously voted to seek repeal of the apiary statute. In addition, we were informed by MHPA, that the Apiary Advisory Committee is in support of this position." Is not Dr. Marla Spivak not on the Apiary Advisory Committee? Surely the Minnesota State Extension Apiculturist would be at a loss to any shrinking much less a demise of the inspection program. For the life of me I just do not understand WHY any group of beekeepers i.e., Minnesota Honey Producers, would wish to do away with their Apiary Inspection Service; it just does not make good sense. Perhaps there are more Enlightened folks on this list that can give good reason for Minn. to repeal their laws, I for one can not find a single one; but, then I am but a simple single beekeeper. Here in North Carolina we have an Apiary Inspection Service that is strong for two reasons, a strong state beekeeping association and a strong academic and extension position. Together all three separate entities, work together as an equilateral triangle each side upholding the others when stress is applied to any one side. The North Carolina State Beekeepers Association has been instrumental in creating additional Apiarist positions trough the years by working with direct lobbying and the NC Farm Bureau. The services that an apiary inspection service performs are far more than merely inspecting for foulbrood. Back in December I posted the following post on this List: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0512&L=bee- l&D=1&T=0&O=D&I=-3&X=5C9AAB202FEF299438&Y=Carolinabeeman% 40hotmail.com&P=6783, in response to a similar post on December 4, 2005 by Brian Fredericksen who wrote: “To Bill and Bob and anyone… …it sounds like you have a much more meaningful state bee program in the NE then we have here in MN. In fact the MN Honey Producers Association has asked the state to essentially disband the state program since it is under funded and basically useless…..Currently we have a couple of seasonal inspectors who do nothing but look for foulbrood scale when hives are shipped out of state.” It seems that nobody really listens, and those few that do listen don’t seem to care enough to make a positive difference and speak up. It is a shame to see Minnesota go the way of Arkansas, I here that Oregon is losing (lost) their extension apiculturist. Will New York follow - again? Let all go burn our hives so that we can be dependent on foreign honey, fruit, produce, food, and clothing. We don’t need beekeepers and beekeeping here in America, “heck” in a couple of years its all gonna be Africanized anyway, and frankly I don’t want to be bothered with the phone calls of people crying and begging for help. There is a paragraph in the March issue of my column for the “American Bee Journal” that complements our North Carolina State Apiarist and Inspection Service, it easily can be used to help provide support for those states whose inspection service is under fire; that is, if you want to speak up and do something about it! True, the beekeepers in Minnesota need to respond to the questionnaire, in mass. Also they need to shake up the press and the politicians and promote the need for an apiary inspection service in a positive aggressive, and grand manner. Marla can’t do it by herself. Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm 330 Irvin Street Reidsville, NC 27320 Tel: 336 342 4490 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 13:25:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Some questions for NY Beekeepers on Bee-L In-Reply-To: <20060209175502.82269.qmail@web53415.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >From the start, 1986, that was my desire. To have a job that would support my family. And as long as it was just the two of us, in a story and a half 12 by 24' house with a telephone but no running water and electric, we were just fine. But when the family doubled in size and the job shrank from 6 months to 3 months and then 6 weeks, I had to do something else. And beekeeping was what I knew and so chose. You'd probably do the same, if you were me. But you aren't and so you wouldn't, perhaps. It was even tryed, at least once, by Bob Mungari, to find me Dept. employment during the off season. But I would have had to move and start before the Apiary Inspection season was over , so it didn't work out. If there was a full time, not seasonal, job offered now, I'd give up my bees to do the job. That's not an option. No such job exists in Apiary Inspection at this time. If you all would get behind the idea of a State Apiarist Position and then pushed for it, then someday there would be full time employment for someone. It's too bad that this, what's happening now, didn't happen sooner. Then we'd be over this by now. Now that AHb are here. Or were and will be. Mike, you have expressed yourself quite well. And just what I have been thinking of for a while now. Something like this (and this is just salaries): State Apiarist: $50,000.00 to $75,000.00 per year Civil Service Position. Senior Apiary Inspectors: $40,000.00 to $50,000.00 per year Civil Service position or seasonal at $25.00 per hour with continued health insurance with partial emp[loyee contribution for the off season. After 5 years of 40 hours per week Seniors would become full time. Apiary Inspector 3: $35,000.00 or $36,000.00 per year or seasonal $18.00 per hour. After 5 years of 40 hours per week work an Apiary 3 would become full time. Apiary Inspector 2: $32,000.00 or $33,000.00 per year or $17.00 per hour seasonal. Apiary Inspector 1: $30,000.00 per year or $16.00 per hour seasonal. No beekeeping or other Conflict of Imnterest Activities allowed. Or, like Maine, up to fifty colonies for Apiarist and Seniors and up to 150 colonies for seasonal. And, like New Jersey, no pollination. No nuc sales. Or, maybe it would just be easier to say, no beekeeping related business what so ever. Mark Berninghausen p.s. now Lloyd and I are in that exclusive club of former apiary inspectors. Mike Stoops wrote: . The inspectors should be paid a salary which would support them and their families at the level which the degree of intricacy of their job would entail. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 13:42:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bacillus Species conofirmed in 28 out of 70 honey samples In-Reply-To: <003a01c62d88$c8266740$cc80a9d1@user> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter, What is also running thru my mind is that honey is anti-microbial, and is therefore supposedly for combating such.Why is it not? Has changing the foraging of bees by cutting off the bottom rung in sizing gotten our honeybees away from too many herbal medicinal plants for pollenation that are quite small in bloom. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Mozya, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 14:03:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Some questions for NY Beekeepers on Bee-L In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd, Pay for Seniors last season was $18.49/hr. I don't have the 2005 pay rates for Apiary 3, 2, and 1, but inthe 2004 season they were paid $15.64, $14.76 and $13.94/ hr respectively. And Seniors were $17.49/hr in 2004. Medical Insurance coverage, individual or family plan, is on partial employee/ employer contribution. Pension? What pension? Maybe you are refering to retirement? After 20 seasons I don't have 10 years. So what am I going to get. I was hoping to hold onto the job for another seven years at 6 months per year to get to my ten years service. I guess that that's out the window now. If by disability you mean Workers Compensation, yes. But one only gets benefit from that if one gets hurt. I guess that's something. Yes, you are definately right about sick time etc. If an Apiary Inspector gets sick or has to have an operation that puts him out of work, well too bad, we don't know you. I went to Maryland to be with my Mother, while she was in the hospital, before she died. My supervisor okayed me taking my supervisory work with me so that I could maintain a paycheck and do what I would have been doing at home if I had been layed up. A week later I was told that what I was doing in Maryland was invalid and didn't count. Human Resources said that I didn't qualify for Federal Medical Family Leave because I had not worked 1940 hours in the previous 12 months. So, I returned home to get in my time to maintain a paycheck and insurance. And then my Mother died without me being there with my Sister who had to tell the Doctors to go ahead and turn off the machinery. Oh well. Such is life, I guess. Fourty hours per week for 26 weeks would come to $19,229.60 and then another $9,000.00 approximately of unemployment compensation. Not enough to maintain heath insurance. My daughters broken ankle came out of our credit card. She's doing fine. I believe that the budget for Extension come from Ag&Mkts, or at least something for Cornell/Dyce Lab does. So, you'd still have to get the money from them. Maine says TJ can't own more than 50 colonies and his inspectors can't own anymore than 150. According to Rip Bechmann, New Jersey Apiary Inspectors can't pollinate. maybe Dennis can tell us what Pennsylvania requires. There are alot of different ways to do this sort of program. Someone should study the other ones and see how they could be applied here, in NY. I'm almost typed out, Mark Lloyd Spear wrote: Mike Stoops makes some good points concerning compensation of inspectors. Mark B should correct me if I am incorrect, but in rough terms today's NYS inspectors earn roughly $14 an hour, plus medical coverage and pension. I think disability is also included. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 00:32:29 +0100 Reply-To: jorn_johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: RE [BEE-L] Developing PDA record-keeping software In-Reply-To: <20060209152801.TKJT1887.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have on my web a free Hivenotecard printout software. It is the Danish beekeeping hivenote card used in Denmark for more than 50 years. It is a bit modified and a very few are meant for calculating an index. Those are what can be easily selected for in a queen breeding program. The software is a windows software, and is what my software is based upon. http://apimo.dk/programs/hivenote.zip 549 kb this can be full configured by you. all fields can be renamed. Best regards Jorn Johanesson maybe the best and Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net. With integrated update facility. Version 8.0.3.0 now translated into 14 languages with more to come. hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk Bidata support forum = http://www.apimo.dk/apimo_forum/ e-mail apimo@apimo.dk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 19:43:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Bacillus Species conofirmed in 28 out of 70 honey samples In-Reply-To: <20060209214222.2909.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: >Peter, >What is also running thru my mind is that honey is >anti-microbial, and is therefore supposedly for combating >such.Why is it not? > Not all organisms are susceptable to the activity of honey. Honey contains bacteria. Always has. That is why it is not reccomended for infants <1 year of age. > Has changing the foraging of bees by >cutting off the bottom rung in sizing gotten our honeybees >away from too many herbal medicinal plants for pollenation >that are quite small in bloom. > > No, at least not that aqnyone can tell from this paper. Let us not read into this. This is not a sizing issue, it simply means that some of these ubiquitous organisms can be found in honey. Ever have you honey tested? You will be amazed at what is in there - yeasts, bacteria, some viruses and such, unless you autoclave it or irradiate it. Keith > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 18:09:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bacillus Species conofirmed in 28 out of 70 honey samples In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Harvey writes: The bacteriaisolated from honey had significant anti-fungal and anti-bacterial activity.Listeria monocytogenes was the most sensitive bacterial pathogen to the honey bacterial isolates. Researchers speculate that some of honey’s antimicrobial activity may be due to compounds produced by the bacteria naturally found in honey. Reply: How much of this information has been put out to beekeepers through industry magazines for general reading? Also, with the amount of treatments used today and topping out for pest and predator internal hive controls, how does this effect the good bacteria in honey then? Sorta seems like an inhouse co-existance then between bees and bacteria and fungi that could be upset......or am I wrong. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 21:56:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Bacillus Species conofirmed in 28 out of 70 honey samples MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To the List, On Thu, 9 Feb, Dee Lusby replied, "How much of this information has been put out to beekeepers through industry magazines for general reading? Also, ... how does this effect the good bacteria in honey then?" to Harvey's statement (truncated), "....Researchers speculate that some of honey’s antimicrobial activity may be due to compounds produced by the bacteria naturally found in honey." My reason for the post to the List is simply my own concern as to what the National Honey Board has or has published or found in this same area of concern. I have found this link, http://www.nhb.org/buzz/release090805- honeyrefguide.html, and the text below to be representative of the findings of the NHB as the words below are published by the NHB within the same web page: "FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE September 8, 2005 Longmont, Colo. - The National Honey Board (NHB) recently published an updated version of “Honey: A Reference Guide to Nature’s Sweetener,” a technical brochure describing terminology about the composition and physical characteristics of honey and about processing and storing honey. Some of the terminology detailed in the brochure includes antimicrobial properties, antioxidants, chemical characteristics, glycemic index, nutritional values and viscosity. The brochure could be utilized by those involved in formulating new honey products or anyone interested in information related to honey composition and characteristics." Herein the operative "antimicrobial properties" is used, I was of the opinion that The NHB several years ago sponsored (under righted) a study concerning the same properties that the List is currently discussing, but with obviously not the same conclusions? Am I mistaken? Cheers, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm 330 Irvin Street Reidsville, NC 27320 Tel: 336 342 4490 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:23:48 +0000 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: a new look at bee hives In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 09:53 -0500, Lloyd Spear wrote: But the boxes > hold two more frames, and frames for the deeps are 12" wide. A deep full of > honey will weigh about 110 lbs. But, with 11 or 12 frames these provide > lots of room to control swarming as well as lots of honey for the winter Interesting comparison Lloyd. My best hives (West Cornwall UK) have 11/12 14" square frames (best 11 plus dummy). So they often overwinter with an estimated 70-90 lb of stores, compared with the typical 40lb or so in the "standard" 14"x8.5" needed to cover a poor spring, and all without feeding. They build up more quickly and have more bees, IMO because the frame size encourages a vertical oval brood shape, which is more efficient in the sense that more brood can be covered by the same amount of bees. So, if we have a good spring, we can have a significant surplus (for us that is: 50lb or more), and a very strong colony going into summer with good swarm control, with harvests of around 160lb in a reasonable year plus the winter stores again. (Static hives! - they are too heavy for one person to move by hand). Otherwise strong standard hives need two boxes, swapped up to twice, or split for nucs. We have intermittent flows with occasional exceptions - two seasons ago, the hawthorn was abundant and continuous for 3 weeks or so as was the sunshine. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:44:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: MN Apiary Law In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chuck Norton wrote: > In fact the MN Honey > Producers Association has asked the state to essentially disband the > state program since it is under funded and basically useless…..Currently > we have a couple of seasonal inspectors who do nothing but look for > foulbrood scale when hives are shipped out of state.” I know it could never possibly be, but that answers the question of why they might want to kill the program. I would guess that more than that is looked at, for instance mites, SHB and the like, and if found, they cannot ship them since the other State requires an inspection certificate. Or the other State will reject the colonies if they have problems noted on the certificates. No inspections, no problems. Bill Truesdell, ignorant and blissful. Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:04:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bacillus Species conofirmed in 28 out of 70 honey samples In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone a lot more informed than me should comment on this, but as I understand it, from my use of honey on wounds, bacteria is fought and killed at the honey/water interface by the production of Hydrogen Peroxide and in the honey itself by the effect of a supersaturated sugar solution on bacteria (suck the water out of them). But this is in regard to live bacteria not bacteria in a dormant state. In the dormant state, bacteria can survive in what we would consider impossible conditions. We know botulism spores survive in honey, so why not a host of others, bad and good? We also know that bacteria are everywhere, including the bee's gut, so those bacteria will be in honey. What is amazing is that they are being found now, since they have been there all along. If you change the honey/water interface by flooding it with water, the peroxide will lose its strength and bacteria will flourish. Those botulism spores shift from dormancy to alive, along with all the other bacteria. So you can have a host of things happening in the interface, both good and bad. Even yeasts kick in which cause fermentation. What is interesting about that interface, it is a natural preserver of honey in the cell. The bees work to keep moisture content down, and that keeps the Peroxide strength high if the honey comes in contact with water. The complexity of the workings of bees continues to amaze me. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:12:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Xen-Apiary Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Second Try I suggest that the classes working up PDA record keeping for beekeeping first do a search for existing systems. A 4-H girl beat them to this several years ago. There are off-the-shelf software packages from suppliers in Canada and New Zealand, Jorn in Europe, and probably lots of other places. One of the most sophisticated is Xenacom's system, put together by the New Zealand firm and New Zealand beekeepers. It ties in to a web-based subscription service: http://www.xenacom.com/XAP/xenapiary.html Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:22:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harvey Abeille Subject: Regressed Beekeeping QUOTE: The question is not varroa. Question is on the whole back to nature. No thanks. IT MEANS REGRESSION OF BEEKEEPER. It would be honest to tell new hobby beekeepers that wax strips and small cells and swarming crossbreeded bee stocks is the ART OF REGRESSED BEEKEEPING. ME: A very good start. There is a strong current throughout the 20th and now the 21st century that supposes that IF we went back to the OLD WAYS, all our problems would miraculously evaporate. Hello! There is no going back, only going forawrd. The problems we have now, they didn't have! Be that as it may, there is a lot to be learnt from techniques invented a hundred or more years ago. Langstroth was the first to describe the "nucleus" system of beekeeping. In fact, his advances on queen selection and nucleus formation are worth at least as much as his perfection of the moveable frame hive. This nucleus system was taken up and modified by queen breeders the world over. But it was taken to new level of usefulness by Brother Adam, where he raised queens during the summer and over-wintered them in order to have young TESTED queens in the spring, instead of requeening with newly mated queens which may or may not be any good. THEN, Kirk Webster, utilizing ideas from his teacher Charles Mraz and Brother Adam too, moved the nucleus system to a further new level where he builds within his apiaries healthy colonies that build up successfully without chemical treatments. Of course, he is buying and further selectin mite resistant stock. This is just the roughest sketch of what I think the KEY is to the beekeeping of the future, where we will not have to depend on chemicals to keep the hives alive. I am not anti-chemicals per se, but I am cognizant of the disastrous results of chemical dependency whether it be with our livestock or our own selves. Herve Abeille -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:31:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: beehive theft Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Tim said If someone really wants to make a difference, then invent something that's theft proof. We can't make a hive theft proof, but we can make it hard to steal, easier to find. As a sideline to our bees/laser/landmine detection, we've had to develop systems to secure the hives that we use. In response to requests from commercial beekeepers, we've recently made these available to the beekeeping industry. We can offer three products for immediate use, and will have one more in about 6 weeks. These products range from inexpensive (< 40 cents) radio-frequency tags that can be hidden in wood or plastic to 'invisibly' mark equipment, to a <$50 tracker (about $1/hive over the 7 year life of the tag) for marking/tracking pallets, to full satellite/GPS coverage (~ $700). All prices depend on number of tags/systems required. We get volume discounts. The cheap tags have a read range of a few feet, the trackers a range of several hundred ft to as far as 1/2 mile from a plane, the satellite - virtually unlimited range. In a few weeks, we will have a Sentry system that can monitor all of the hives in a beeyard or stockpile yard (all hives within 700 ft radius and marked with the tracker). If any hive moves, a cell phone call will be initiated. We can send a flyer to anyone interested. We suggest that you call us and describe your needs. We'll try to match up the best system for your specific application. The satellite system is a bit pricey, but it could monitor bee yards: gates open/closed, electric fence on/off, bear trap open/closed, etc. It can also be used to monitor bee trucks -- load movement, engine on/off, hive temperature, etc. Thanks Jerry Bee Alert Technology, Inc. 1620 Rodgers St, Suite 1 Missoula, MT 59802 406-541-3160 jjbromenshenk@beealert.blackfoot.net or beeresearch@aol.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:30:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harvey Abeille Subject: Re: beehive theft Comments: To: Jerry Bromenshenk >The satellite system is a bit pricey, but it could monitor bee yards: gates >open/closed, electric fence on/off, bear trap open/closed, etc. It can >also be used to monitor bee trucks -- load movement, engine on/off, hive >temperature, etc. What about a scale hive? Could a scale hive be remotely monitored? What about a regular radio transmitter, or a modified cell phone? Could this be used more economically? Herve -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:58:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harvey Abeille Subject: Re: Regressed Beekeeping Langstroth observed 150 years ago that bees could be continually be removed from healthy colonies without harm, much as a healthy person can give many quarts of blood over time with no ill effect. Langstroth on making nucs: These small colonies I shall call nuclei, and the system of forming stocks from them, my nucleus system; and before I describe this system more particularly, I shall show other ways in which the nuclei can be formed. If the Apiarian chooses, he can take a frame containing bees just ready to mature, and eggs and young worms, all of the worker kind, together with the old bees which cluster on it, and shut them up in the manner previously described ; even if he has no sealed queen to give them. If all things are favorable, they will set about raising a queen in a few hours. If the Apiarian has sealed queens on hand, they ought, by all means, to be given to the nuclei, in order to save all the time possible. I come now to the very turning point of the whole nucleus system. If some of the full combs are removed, and empty ones substituted in their place, she will speedily fill them, laying at the rate of two or three thousand a day ! When my strong stocks are from time to time deprived of one or two combs, if honey can easily be procured, the bees proceed at once to replace them, and the queen commences laying in the new combs as soon as the cells are fairly started. If the combs are not removed too fast, and care is taken not to deprive the stock of so much brood that the bees cannot keep up a vigorous population, a queen in a hive so managed, will lay her eggs in cells to be nurtured by the bees, instead of being eaten up ; and thus, in the course of the season, she may become the mother of three or four times as many bees, as are reared in a hive under other circumstances. By careful management, brood enough may, in this way, be taken from a single hive, to build up a large number of nuclei. If the Apiarian attempts to multiply his stocks [too] rapidly ... I will ensure him ample cause to repent at leisure of his folly. If however, the attempt at very rapid multiplication is made only by those who are favorably situated, and who have skill in the management of bees, a very large gain may be made in the number of stocks, and they may all be strong and flourishing. # Langstroth on the hive and the honey-bee: a bee keeper's manual. # Langstroth, L.L. 1810-1895. # Hopkins, Bridgman, Northampton : 1853. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:39:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit News from Calif. There is now a glut of bees in Calif for almond pollination. All the press about shortages here created another "Gold Rush" of fortune seekers. Unfortunately, the shortages were largely projections for upcoming years, and there are apparently enough bees this year. There are now local and out-of-state beekeepers dumping bees for $80/colony just to get anything! Lots of hard feelings all around, and both beekeepers and growers being taken advantage of. I feel for those out-of-staters who are suffering big losses, plus we will have to face growers next year who will accuse us of overcharging them. The wild free market competition has turned ugly. Local guys are having long-term "handshake" contracts dropped. Gouging is going on--I personally know of a beekeeper who last week offered a beekeeper $80 for several hundred colonies, and then placed the bees for $130--pocketing the difference! Here are some suggestions for the future: DON'T CONSIDER COMING UNLESS YOU HAVE A SIGNED, WRITTEN CONTRACT WITH A GROWER. Have average (6-frame min, usu. 8 frame, best are 10 frame) and minimum (usu. 4 frames) specified in contract, and a provision for inspection at 60°F. Don't overestimate how many strong colonies that you will be able to supply, and don't move weak ones. Move in and move out time specified. Move in at 10% bloom of first variety--usu. Feb. 10th. Remove half of bees at 50% petal fall of late variety, balance at 90% petal fall. Half payment upon delivery, rest upon removal. A map of the orchard, and placement indicated and flagged on the trees. Make sure orchard has passable roads in wet weather!!!! You can contract directly with the Grower, but a good broker is, IMO, well worth a reasonable fee (about $4/colony). A good broker can really help you with problems, or if you come up short. Please don't bring junk, diseased colonies, or weak colonies. We Calif locals pick up all your pests and diseases from robbing of deadouts. Have a good holding yard ready so you don't create a nusiance. Be ready to feed your bees before and after bloom, or they can starve. Can also starve if it rains during bloom! If all this sounds like too much, just stay home and make honey :) Randy Oliver Semicommercial beekeeper Grass Valley, CA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:15:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: beehive theft In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:30 AM 2/10/2006, you wrote: >Herve Asked > >What about a scale hive? Could a scale hive be remotely monitored? What >about a regular radio transmitter, or a modified cell phone? Could this be >used more economically? You misread my message. Our Hive Sentry will use cell phone communications. Satellite messaging is required in many areas of the western U.S. -- poor or spotty phone coverage. As per sensors, we could plug in a scale hive to either the phone or satellite communications systems-- almost any sensor can be hooked to our systems. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 18:09:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Regressed Beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Guys, >This is just the roughest sketch of what I think the KEY is to the beekeeping of the future, where we will not have to depend on >chemicals to keep the hives alive... Some of us are living that future in the present! And I think it starts with understanding and cooperating, as much as possible, with the bee's biology. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 20:07:29 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Developing PDA record-keeping software Comments: To: Michael Wilson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Michael Wilson" > I've been developing a beekeeping log database with access. Your students... An access db is probably very advantageous since pocketpc comes with pocket-access. All you'd really need to do is develop a front-end for it. -- Scot Mc Pherson Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 20:07:29 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Bacillus Species conofirmed in 28 out of 70 honey samples MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I know this isn't directly related, however I feel it bears some weight. In wine making, it is known, and they are available, that some yeasts innoculate a product, and literally inhibit or kill competing strains of yeasts and other microbes. These yeasts although be dormant in fully cured honey due to sugar saturation, would still have a chance to perform their version of aleopathy (plant's chemical warfare). This could easily produce a more antispectic product. However the proliferation of these yeasts would be somewhat regional in nature. I.e where they can already be found. -- Scot Mc Pherson Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 12:25:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harvey Abeille Subject: Re: Regressed Beekeeping > I think it starts with understanding and cooperating, as much as possible, with the bee's biology. Aye, but there's the rub! Nobody can agree on what that really means. Of course, anyone who fails to look after the bees' health can't be called a beekeeper; more like a bee-haver. But seriously folks, if we were to stand back and let nature take her course, it is likely that mites would destroy all but the africans, and the africans would be the honey bee that prevailed. That's sort of giving up altogether, isn't it? I would prefer to raise big fat carniolans and have them survive without chemicals. That's what breeding is about: a better bee. Not settling for some hot-heads from the savanna. Herve -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 12:07:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Regressed Beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit So, Harvey, How do we get that bee? I believe that it was Steve Taber who, almost 20 years ago said, "Don't do anything to try to treat your bees for mites and in thirty years we will have a bee that can withstand the mites." Or something like that. So, now that we haven't taken that route and, it appears to me, we haven't found or produced a bee that can withstand the mites, what do we do next? All of the chemical treatments that we use and probably the managment techniques that we try are selecting for mites that aren't killed by those methods, thereby producing a stronger mite. Maybe we should be trying to find an economic use for mites. That's what we are good at raising these days. I'm not really serious about that. I just think that we need to think about our current situation in a different way and make the best of it. I don't know what that different way is, but maybe someone does. maybe someone from outside of our industry. Who knows. These are desperate times, it seems, and desperate times call for desperate measures. Back at school, Dr. Tew told us about the foraging bees. He said that there were the bees that found the good source and came back to tell the rest of the foragers where it was and how good it was and then the colony exploited that source. But there were always those renegades or rebel bees who didn't follow the pack. They left the hive and worked something odd or obscure. And when the colony had used up the good source the renegades were the ones that showed the colony where their next meal was to be found. That's what we need, some renegade beekeepers who are doing something or finding a way that is out of the main steam, but works. We need those people to show us where our next meal is coming from. Where are you and what are you doing and how are you doing it? Show us the way. Mark Berninghausen Harvey Abeille wrote: But seriously folks, if we were to stand back and let nature take her course, it is likely that mites would destroy all but the africans, and the africans would be the honey bee that prevailed. Herve --------------------------------- What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:03:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: pollen trapping Comments: To: Lloyd Spear Lloyd thanks for the excellent information. We do swarm cell cutting but yes I do reconginze that some percentage fo our queens superscede later in the summer. Also its possible that we put the trap into bypass during daylight hours and that closing early or late would prevent the dead drone problem. Agian thanks for your post. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:15:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Crane hoist Comments: To: Lloyd Spear I run 300 colonies and an 1800 tree apple orchard, I'm 46 yo and am starting to experience some shoulder muscle problems from the repetitive lifting. I've been doing some research on hive cranes like the BIllet Easy loader. I also searched the archives. At $16,000 the Billet Ez loader is a real nice unit but out of my league money wise. I have not seen any other apiculture specific cranes marketed here in North America. While we do move some full hives around,. mostly I see the crane usefull for loading supers, hive bodies, splits, bee supplies, totes of syrup and full apple crates. So most of our payload would be under 200 pounds. The articulated boom of the Billet loader is unique and I suspect hard to replicate with off the shelf truck cranes mainly desgined for lifting metal and other heavy payloads. Can anybody comment on other equipment I have not located or any homemade or converted equipment that they have used or would like to sell? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 14:16:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Regressed Beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Herve writes: But seriously folks, if we were to stand back and let nature take her course, it is likely that mites would destroy all but the africans, and the africans would be the honey bee that prevailed. Reply: Bull......all one has to do is go back to sizing before bigger was better, which has now cut off the two bottom rungs of the natural ladder (small, and now Medium), leaving only large bees to get sick and die upon the evolution chain. All races can survive, but the key is....one has to want too also! Just what is so hard with regressing the cell size to the middle of the natural feral range and keeping all else for equipment stable for modern convience? For following the cell size back, then the bees retrogress themselves with outbreeding......to clear up the mite problem. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:21:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Regressed Beekeeping In-Reply-To: <20060211200717.84967.qmail@web32101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beekeepers in the Russian bee breeding program are finding that chemical treatments are not necessary, so Steve Taber is probably right in the fact that it will remove the genetic material that is susceptible thereby leaving only resistant stock to breed from. So if we let nature take her course, as with the Russian bees who have already had 100+ years of no treatments by Russian beekeepers, in 100+ years we will be better off. No we will not be left with just Africans. We do have USDA bee labs that will do the research for us. Why not use them? If we do not show the government that we want these bee labs, they will cut funding and we will lose a wonderful resource for obtaining future research information. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 19:15:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, I have been hired by ABJ to write about the situation in California. I have interviewed around 20 beekeepers, almond growers & brokers. Randy has only given a glimpse as to the problem. Randy provides an accurate California beekeeper position with a strong almond broker sound. I can't find a single beekeeper which has ever heard of you. Were you on one of the crews doing the evaluations? Does not really matter. I interviewed two beekeepers today which spent the last weeks combining hives and unloading out of state semi's. They had around 10,000 hives under their control. I have got information from Adee Honey Farms (largest provider of bees for almonds in the U.S.) I interviewed beekeepers from North & South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri , Georgia, Florida & California. I think I have got a clear picture of what went on. What caused the problem and for sure the Almond broker which fueled the fire. The almond broker which has been linked to being behind the problem reads this list and knows who he is. I have spoken with you by email and I pass advice which you should not take lightly. Time does heal most wounds (except maybe those which cost thousands of dollars) Friendly advice is to not attend another large beekeeper gathering as three I interviewed said they were going to invite you outside for a discussion. Please do not kill the messenger! I am taking a chance by warning you. I hope to downsize about 20 pages of notes into an article for April American Bee Journal. New from California today: Bees were long until the combining and now good bees are short. Phones are ringing for hives with at least a four frames of bees average (which is about eight frame beekeeper average). Of course $150 is only for hives *they* grade at 10 frames of bees. Have not talked to a beekeeper getting top dollar yet. Two strong hives combined at times will yield a hive which will bring over a $100. I hope all involved will read the article. Each group has their opinion of what happened and why. I hope to honestly print each position and the readers can understand what happened and the reasons why the situation got out of control. Many beekeepers say they are going to be bankrupt by this years problems. Others say they will never return to almond pollination. Others say bees can not be moved from northern areas to California and be sold into almonds in January with 8-10 frames (as brokers count bees). Not one beekeeper I talked to thinks the grading is accurate. One beekeeper went through around a thousand hives with the broker/grower evaluators. Almond growers made a statement but will the statement end up coming back to haunt them in years to come. I do not know. One beekeeper said to me concerning this almond pollination: " Natural selection of survival of the fittest beekeeper" A guess would be the new process set in place by almond growers/ brokers cost beekeepers around a million dollars in lost pollination fees. Another said: "burn me once is a learning experience but you will not burn me twice" Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:47:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Crane hoist In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian writes: Can anybody comment on other equipment I have not located or any homemade or converted equipment that they have used or would like to sell? Reply: For only 300 colonies and related equipment, why don't you look into a simple rear liftgate. Seems to me it would handle all equipment you talked about needing to move and with Kelly nose floor trucks it is as simple as wheeling on and wheeling off, be it 3/4 or 1 ton pickups or flatbeds. We have liftgates on both styles and see no problem, and we handle 900 colonies right now with plans to go to 1,100 by end of coming years flow. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 21:31:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Propolis Component Helps Prevent Colon Cancer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Use of Artepillin C Helps Prevent Colon Cancer Drug Week, 2/17/2006 According to a study from Japan, "Potential chemopreventive agents exist in foods. Artepillin C in Brazilian propolis was investigated for its effects on colon carcinogenesis." "We had found that artepillin C was a bioavailable antioxidant, which could be incorporated into intestinal Caco-2 and hepatic HepG2 cells without any conjugation and inhibited the oxidation of intracellular DNA. Artepillin C was then added to human colon cancer WiDr cells. It dose-dependently inhibited cell growth, inducing G(0)/G(1) arrest. The events involved a decrease in the kinase activity of a complex of cyclin D/cyclin-dependent kinase 4 and in the levels of retinoblastoma protein phosphorylated at Ser-780 and 807/811. The inhibitors of the complex, Cip1/p21 and Kip1/p27, increased at the protein level," explained K. Shimizu and colleagues, Kobe University. . . The researchers concluded, "Artepillin C appears to prevent colon cancer through the induction of cell-cycle arrest by stimulating the expression of Cip1/p21 and to be a useful chemopreventing factor in colon carcinogenesis." Shimizu and colleagues published the results of their research in Molecular Carcinogenesis (Artepillin C in Brazilian propolis induces G(0)/G(1) arrest via stimulation of Cip1/p21 expression in human colon cancer cells. Mol Carcinog, 2005;44(4):293-299). For additional information, contact K. Kanazawa, Kobe University, Graduate School Science & Technology, Dept. Life Science, Nada Ku, Kobe, Hyogo 6578501, Japan. . . See: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 07:56:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: del MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable del bee-l thomasrose67@yahoo.com pw=3DSABAPrez -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 06:53:21 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Crane Hoist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try the archives of the Irish Bee List. Derek Steed in Germany has designed and built a hoist to assist his beekeeping. I think there may also be a link to pictures. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 08:12:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Propolis Component Helps Prevent Colon Cancer In-Reply-To: <20060211213123.84d281a5f2f7df0ef38485a84124037d.b3924cf2fb.wbe@email.email.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wonderful news but most of these test tube or petri dish findings have trouble making it to the cancer in our bodies. There are many products that fight cancer and other diseases well in the lab, but it is the delivery system that is found wanting. Where many of these might work is preventative. But then you need a large study to see if they do work, and that costs lots of money to do well. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 05:17:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Regressed Beekeeping In-Reply-To: <43EE718F.7060103@russianbreeder.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Charles Harper wrote: Beekeepers in the Russian bee breeding program are finding that chemical treatments are not necessary... We do have USDA bee labs that will do the research for us. Why not use them? I'm one of several beekeepers in Alabama participating in a study in conjunction with the Baton Rouge Bee Lab and Alabama A & M University. I'm starting my second year. The first has been pretty interesting, especially the queen introductions. As we go into the second year we're slowly getting data as to how resistant these bees are to both the tracheal mites and the varroa mites. We're also finding out how easy it is to integrate the Russian and SMR queens into Italian stock. Initially I've had a lot better luck than what is considered normal, but that was not due to any expertise on my part. As has been mentioned earlier, the bees succeed no matter what we do to them. That seems to be the case with my lot. As I get into them more during spring management, we'll see how the queens carried over from last year. Had one experience where I was deeply into the hives just before a heavy thunderstorm. I was amazed. They acted like they do during a sunny day with a fairl! y heavy nectar flow. They weren't testy at all. Mike in LA, Lower Alabama --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 05:27:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Propolis Component Helps Prevent Colon Cancer In-Reply-To: <20060211213123.84d281a5f2f7df0ef38485a84124037d.b3924cf2fb.wbe@email.email.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit C Hooper wrote: Use of Artepillin C Helps Prevent Colon Cancer Drug Week, 2/17/2006 Is Artepillin C one of the critters found to exist naturally in honey? Mike in LA (Lower Alabama) --------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:13:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Propolis Component Helps Prevent Colon Cancer MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline > Where many of these might work is preventative. But then you need a > large study to see if they do work, and that costs lots of money to > do > well. Also, one question that would have to be answered is one of consistancy and bioavailability. Given that propolis is a remarkably variable substance (sometimes including all sorts of nasties) would propolis itself be a reasonable delivery vehicle? Not likely. What would happen is that someone would synthesize the compound(s), and develop a different more consistant delivery system (pill, solution etc. with a known quantity of said substances) Prescribers, consumers, and the FDA will, and should, insist on a guaranteed analysis. My propolis is not your propolis. . . mine is better ;) The thinking consumer, when told that propolis has these agents will ask "but does THIS propolis have them in it?" And that is nothing conpared to what the FDA will want to know. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 11:09:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: mite resistant queens I've been breeding queens for 20+ years. In my experience, you can breed bees that can do nearly anything. Color, temperament, honey gathering, hygienic behavior, tracheal mite resistance were relatively easy. Varroa resistance has been really tough, since the availability of resistance genes was initially very low in the U.S. bee population, and due to the wholesale use of chemicals that perpetuates susceptible bees and virulent mites. I've selected from survivors for years, and resistance gets better each year. I'm using the Bond method to some extent, but it is tough when you make your living taking strong colonies to almonds in February. Therefore, we can't count on California breeders to practice much survivability trials. SMR is the most promising trait I've found, but is very tough to get into a good bee. Virtually all my SMR crosses have performed poorly. However, last year I got a Minn Hygienic x SMR II queen from Glenn. This cross was golden! A great bee, and virtually no mites one year later with absolutely no treatments in a survivor yard with collapsing colonies all around. You can see them tearing out any infested worker cell. My hat's off to Marla Spivak and John Harbo! Unfortunately, her daughters aren't performing as well. IMO, it seems that we will likely need to go back to a program like the Starline queen. The families of supersisters in the MH xSMR cross compliment each other perfectly. I'm not sure that it will be easy to have one line of purebred bee that can handle the mites. Perhaps it would be better to maintain several inbred lines (as for Starline) and determine the best "hybrid." I suggest we find funding for Sue Cobey to maintain a genetic repository of resistant and productive queen lines in California. Lines for short development time, grooming behavior, superhygienic (SMR), coccoon trapping, etc. Then we could work on determining the best combinations by trial and error, or let Nature work the odds in survival yards. Randy Oliver California -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 11:26:11 -0500 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: Propolis Component Helps Prevent Colon Cancer In-Reply-To: <43EF3438.9020405@suscom-maine.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Since propolis components are dependent on the local plant sources and conditions, and propolis is a sponge for any contaminants, I am often disturbed by articles that don't emphasize the unique nature of each batch. I have natural food buffs thinking propolis is propolis is propolis, at least until I assure them that I'm not ingesting any propolis except that fully tested, or from my chemical free hives in a mostly national forest location. I'd love to see more research to ID those components, if any, in all propolis and possible beneficial effects. Not that I don't appreciate the work being done, just wish the caveat was included for the non-beekeepers. Carolyn in Plum Branch SC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 09:17:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Propolis Component Helps Prevent Colon Cancer In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/ > Propolis Component Helps Prevent Colon Cancer > Use of Artepillin C Helps Prevent Colon Cancer > Drug Week, 2/17/2006 One must remember that propolis compounds are a specific to place of origin, this particular compound (Artepillin C found in Brazilian propolis) may not necessarily be found in propolis of other origins. Spectrometry analysis of propolis from different locations has shown that the propolis compounds are very different depending on their place of origin. To identify the plant origin of Brazilian propolis (green propolis) scientists observed the behavior of honeybees in Minas Gerais State of Brazil. They found that honeybee workers bit and chewed leaves of the plant, Baccharis dracunculifolia, packed the material into their pollen basket, brought it back to their nest, and used it as propolis. Scientists then collected the leaves of B. dracunculifolia and propolis, and compared their constituents by liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry analysis. They discovered that the compound artepillin C (known for it’s antitumor activity) to be contained in both B. dracunculifolia and propolis collected by honeybees, and that there was no difference between the chemical constituents of the ethanol extracts of B. dracunculifolia and those of propolis collected there. This indicated directly that the plant origin of Brazilian propolis is B. dracunculifolia. Here’s a file that includes info on the matter and a photo of B. dracunculifolia. "Direct Evidence for the Plant Origin of Brazilian Propolis by the Observation of Honeybee Behavior and Phytochemical Analysis" http://abrazil.com/doc/products/artepillinC.pdf Best Wishes, Joe “Full information removes doubt and removes suspicion and creates authenticity and credibility.” -Lorry Lokey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 12:55:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Re: Bacillus Species conofirmed in 28 out of 70 honey samples MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter John Keating" There must be a > great deal of empty, unwashed honey barrels from Argentina being sold all > over the province of Quebec putting Quebec colonies at great risk of > acquiring resistant AFB. The same must apply to many honey importing > regions > of the world. It seems as if there should be more concern regarding the condition of honey drums, some are in deplorable condition, inside and out. I wonder if it were required to use inexpensive throw away liners it would make a difference in the cleanliness of the contents. The first objection I can think of is 'why not wash the liner? Any ideas? Alden Marshall Hudson, NH 03051 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:48:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: mite resistant queens In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit So, Randy, from all you said, there is alot to think about when breeding ones own queens, right? If I raise my own from colonies I select myself, in your opinion, am I really accomplishing much. Especially if I don't know as much as you? Mark Randy Oliver wrote: I've been breeding queens for 20+ years. In my experience, you can breed bees that can do nearly anything. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 16:20:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Hand operated Radial extractor designed for Top Bar Hives? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit How can I learn more about the radial extractor that is hand operated and designed for use with Top Bar Hives that won the beekeeping invention at. Apimondia this past summer? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:38:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Crane hoist=boom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian, I built my first boom. It was a rustic copy of a Kelley boom with out the levelling devices. If you can find a copy of the Kelley publicity you may be able to construct one yourself. I happened to have a reversible 12 volt motor with a wire reel, but a 12 volt winch would do the job. It worked well on the 3500 pick-up. I then purchased a larger truck and bought an old Payne loader ( it's for sale!). These are not too expensive, work well and are very robust. Much more so that the Billet, but there are heavy and require a large turning circle. If you want more info ( l still have my boom files) contact me directly. Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:50:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: blueberry pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, I need to contact a few beekeepers who do low bush blueberry pollination (Maine ?). I need to know of colony strength, prices, contracts etc. We have good prices here but the growers do not like to sign contracts, so there is always a lot of last minute haggling! Peter, in Quebec. contact me off group -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 17:48:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: Califonia Almond Pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been pollinating almonds for 25 years. I normally place 1500 hives = of my own and take on 2-3 semi-loads of out of state bees (ND) in the = almonds, total about 3000 hives in. Last year it all changed. The = beekeepers that I have dealt with in the past wanted a 50/50 split of = the rental fee, they said "how much do you need to put a couple of = gallons of feed on and move them in the field". Never to say, I decided = not to continue with those out of state bees . After talking with a good = truck driving friend of mine, he told me that he had helped haul a total = of seven semi-loads (544-816 singles and doubles) of dead outs back to = Texas. The ND beekeepers now have a different view of California. The = hives they did rent were no where near the $150 mark they thought they = were going to get. I tried to tell them that three rounds of pollen, = lbs. each, and three gallons of 50/50 syrup would be needed but they = laughed. One told me, money talks and b.s. walks. I wonder how much he = spent on trucking bees to Calif. and dead outs to Texas? As it stands = right now , a lot of growers are P.O. about the quality of hives, some = used to be my old growers before I down sized, I told them , you get = what you pay for. Inexperience and greed on the beekeeper behalf will = result in chaos. If the bees are there, the rest will follow. I'm at = $150 rental rate. It's easy to fly like an eagle when your surrounded by = turkey's. P.S I know that guy Randy O., good Keeper. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 22:31:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Hand operated Radial extractor designed for Top Bar Hives? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12-Feb-06, at 6:20 PM, Cara &Tom Patterson wrote: > How can I learn more about the radial extractor that is hand operated > and designed for use with Top Bar Hives that won the beekeeping > invention at. Apimondia this past summer? > The manufacturer is Swienty A/S from Denmark Contact Marketing Coordinator Dennis Svane Christensen: e-mail dsc@swienty.com This extractor was designed for the Apimondia competition and may not be available Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 21:28:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Califonia Almond Pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >I'm at $150 rental rate. You are the first I have talked to. Thanks to you and Randy for your posts! I would like to use some of the information in my article. If you have got objections please email direct. I will not use your names. In fact I am not using the peoples names which have provided information so far. As you both know hard feelings are whats happening and I only want to make all beekeepers aware of what happened. I do not want to toss salt in open wounds. If any readers doubt what I publish then doubt. Jo Traynor sent an email saying he thought Randy and mines posts were "an accurate assesment of the situation". I sent no bees of mine to California *this year* so I have no agenda. Thanks again guys. I have talked to many California, out of state beekeepers and brokers getting their position and the problems they had. I could use an opinion from a couple additional almond growers. I will not use your name. I just want an honest opinion. "It's easy to fly like an eagle when your surrounded by turkey's" I am going to remember your saying! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 02:06:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Hand operated Radial extractor designed for Top Bar Hives? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just a thought. No criticism implied. I wonder if the pursuit of extractor designs for top bar hive frames or combs will result in basically what we already have? Frames that fit into a framework in a tank. Along the lines of the parallel radial design that Cowen puts out. In other words, couldn't you run TBH frames through a Cowen Extractor? I'm sure that there is somehting that I am missing. I just wondered. Mark Berninghausen --------------------------------- What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:18:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: blueberry pollination In-Reply-To: <005b01c63037$7b72e660$6f80a9d1@user> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6FC373A9 > I need to contact a few beekeepers who do low bush blueberry pollination >(Maine ?). Peter, I tried writing you off list, as requested, but the message keeps coming back as undeliverable. Contact Tony, the State Apiculturist in Maine. He knows vast amounts about the Blueberry industry in Maine and New Brunswick...both the growers' and beekeepers' side of the story. His address is: Anthony.M.Jadczak@maine.gov Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.6/257 - Release Date: 2/10/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 04:49:41 -0800 Reply-To: paradisehoneyfarms@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "paradisehoneyfarms@earthlink.net" Subject: Re: Califonia Almond Pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII What you and Randy are saying is what we had seen also. Yes greed on all parts, and un cutting. I dislike the days of handshake is over, but life goes on. We placed ours at 140. Yes we had good strong hives.Yes we have out of state friends who came in the fall, and they listened to what we told them to do to stay strong, not to just drop and leave. What goes around, comes around. Susan -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 10:47:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: Almond Pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob, more information from Calif In general, we Calif beekeepers don't have ill feelings toward out of staters (since many of us, myself included) move east each year. However, we sure hate that we have to pick up every new pest or resistant mite or AFB that develops in Florida, and get it here in only two years cross country (Florida to Dakotas to Calif). Almonds are our bread and butter here, not honey. Also queen production. The onslaught of new pests from across the country when we go into almonds, plus the competition from out-of-staters who used to come in just for the cost of diesel fuel in order to build up their colonies before moving up to Oregon and Washington for cherry and apple pollination hurt us. How would midwest beekeepers feel if we contaminated their colonies each year and then undercut them on the price of honey? As far as I can tell, there were five main problems this year--(1) supply and demand, (2) lack of contracts, (3) changing rules at the bug stations, (4) grading, and (5) gouging. 1. Supply and demand: Is this a repeat of the 1849 Gold Rush, or what? A few firstcomers get rich, the rest go broke. Joe Traynor may not deserve so much animosity--he's right that there is a shortage of bees. The main shortage is yet to come. The midwestern beekeepers just jumped the gun this year. Supply and demand really kicked in, and the out-of-state beekeepers have no one but themselves to blame for the price dropping. They ran up the supply so much (speculating to get $150), that they filled the demand. One of my friends who contracted to place bees at $150 is now dropping his price (after placing the bees) to keep the grower happy. If the price offered had been $80, there would have been a hell of a shortage. This whole thing started last year as a bidding war between the growers for a finite supply of available bees, and they had the potential profits to make it worthwhile to pay more for bees ensure that they would get a lucrative crop. A big point for your article is that it wasn't the beekeepers who drove up the price, it was the growers bidding against each other to make sure they got enough bees. This year raw greed scrounged every movable bee box out the the backwoods of the country, and there were suddenly too many beekeepers trying to milk the same cash cow. 2. Lack of contracts: Who in their right freaking mind would pay thousands of dollars to haul bees across the country without a signed contract? Beekeepers blinded by greed? The point is, they were gambling, and didn't hit the jackpot :( I don't want to see any beekeeper or grower get hurt, and I hope we can avoid this awful mess next year. Anyone want to come up with a standardized contract for next year--there are plenty of models out there. 3. Changing rules at the bug stations--can't comment on this. But if your bees ain't clean, do you think we want them here? We have enough problems without you dumping new pests on us each year. 4. Grading.: The grading issue is odd to me. I've been mostly with a broker (Mike Rosso) who has run a graded program for at least 25 years. We get paid by frame strength. 10% of colonies are inspected by his crew at 10% bloom of main variety. One frame stength is one deep Langstroth frame 70% covered with bees at a temp above 60°F. No payment for any colony under 4 frame. The last two years we got paid $4.50/frame, then $6.00/frame up to a max of 12 frames. This year the payment was considerably better to match the going rate for strong colonies, but topped out at 10 frames. If either Grower or Beekeeper disputes the count, we can pay for a recount at $20/hr for a team of two. I've always been happy with my count. With this program, it's more cost efficient for me to combine two weaker colonies, since I'm really getting paid for the total number of frames of bees I move in, independent of the number of boxes (I get paid the same for 10 5-framers as for 5-10 framers). Therefore, less hauling. There's no incentive to haul shitty bees, and the Grower really gets his money's worth (a 12-frame colony really does some serious pollinating compared to two 6-framers). 5. Gouging: I return to the same orchards, and work with the same growers and broker year after year. We get to know each other personally, and care about each others' operations and problems. A little different than sending semiloads of crappy boxes of sick bees to an anonymous almond farmer in another state who you only want to extort for cash. Last year my growers kicked in a substantial bonus after they already has my bees in their orchards with signed contracts, to make sure I got paid fairly! Beekeepers, brokers, and growers are all guilty of gouging each other at the last minute this year. Everyone loses! How about a little honesty and respect for one another. The almond growers are finally making money after many years of hard times, and most of us beekeepers are struggling with Varroa. Let's work together, and keep a good relationship! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:30:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: follow up on CA almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, if you are going write for ABJ, I want to clarify a few things. = When I say good bees I mean 9-12 frames average, 6 frames of brood. To = get there, I put on three rounds of pollen sub, 6 pounds each.That's the = same as putting on 18 (one pound) rounds that the bee suppliers sell = (man lake, dadant ), so you get a good understanding of how much we push = them in the winter. As far as the 50/50 syrup I spoke of, half fructose = half sucrose. Some keepers are still feeding type 55 fructose, poor move = going into winter, but it's cheaper.The moral of the story is, you get = out what you put in them ( $$$ ). Most beekeepers I've met want the = $150 rental, but they are going to have to earn it. That doesn't mean = field run bees or six frame averages.=20 Thanks for writing the up coming ABJ, I think alot of beekeepers need to = know what's expected of them before they load up the wagons and head = West. =20 Keith Jackson, CA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:11:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bacillus Species conofirmed in 28 out of 70 honey samples In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Harvey writes: I don't get your point. Do you suppose honey in other countries has bacteria and yours doesn't? You'd better check. Reply: Okay, then USA is checking? How.....and UK too? Others? ... This was posted back on same at our Organics List: Anthrax? Just a genus of bacteria. Some of the species classified in that genus can be pathogens. Anthrax would be one, B. cereus, subtlis and some others are also pathogens. Many just live in the soil and are important in bioremediation projects. Some folks consider thuringiensis a useful species. The list is pretty varied. http://www.hpa.org.uk/infections/topics_az/bacillus/menu.htm gioves s simple short definition. Respectfully submitted: Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 07:28:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harvey Abeille Subject: Re: Bacillus Species conofirmed in 28 out of 70 honey samples QUOTE: >Sorta seems like an inhouse co-existance then between bees and bacteria and >fungi that could be upset......or am I wrong. Maybe you should go back to your original posting. Why were you bringing up the discovery of bacteria in the honey of Argentina? Were you trying to make a case that foreign honey is bad? It would be a very weak case, if all honey has bacteria in it. Also, if some of the bacteria are beneficial, then why would we not want them there? SO you can't have it both ways: trash them for having germs in their honey and then trash us for treating our bees and making the unfounded insinuation that this could be responsible for more -- or is it less? -- bacteria. Maybe you should look into it a little more deeply before speculating. Herve -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:50:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Green Subject: Bacillus Species conofirmed in 28 out of 70 honey samples In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:00 AM 2/10/2006, you wrote: >The bacteria isolated from honey had significant anti-fungal and >anti-bacterial activity. This sentence seems to be contradictory. If pure honey has anti bacterial and anti microbial characteristics, then the presence of bacteria in honey would indeed be newsworthy. I'd personally like to understand this better. >From: Peter John Keating >There must be a >great deal of empty, unwashed honey barrels from Argentina being sold all >over the province of Quebec putting Quebec colonies at great risk of >acquiring resistant AFB. The same must apply to many honey importing regions >of the world. The implication then is that it's not the honey that naturally has the bacteria, but unclean container or unsanitary practices? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:28:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: MN Apiary Law Comments: To: Chuck Norton Most concerning to me is that the commercial beekeepers have the ear of Minnesota Dept of Ag (MDA) more then the little guy/gal. There is a line of communication betweeen the Minnesota Honey Producers Association (MHPA who have made this request) and MDA that does not exist with the 100's of sideliners or backyard hobbyists. I can't speak for Marla but its widely known that she has a very good working relationship with MHPA and is much more of a resource then MDA. I hope all who received the letter express their opinion. I've noted here before that last season 4 commercial beekeepers were found with small hive beetle infestations in MN . Seems to me then that the apiary law is working and usefull. Currently MDA has no sampling plan for AHB nor any internal protocol for testing etc. MHPA is not very happy with the lack of support by the state over the poplar tree/sevin lawsuit and the apperent (but denied at MDA) removal of Blaine White as the main bee person at MDA for his support of the bee industry. A stiff increase in the apiary liscense fee was also quickly reccomended and approved by MDA in 2005 in what seem liked retribution over the large damage settlement the state had to pay out. I guess I can understand the harsh feelings given I have not really seen the MDA or DNR come out publicly and show any support or understanding of the seriousness of that incident. I think the state should not have allowed it to go to a lawsuit and instead admitted it was not good policy to be promoting an industry or spray progam that was injurious to the beekpeeing industry. The word I've heard is that the state did not want to lose the fed grant money they acquired for the poplar tree plantation project and the lack of state funding for MDA made this a survival issue within MDA. Poor desicions may have prevailed in the face of job security. . ....so its a cat fight . -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 08:06:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harvey Abeille Subject: Re: Regressed Beekeeping mark berninghausen wrote: >So, Harvey, How do we get that bee? I would say, there are good bees available. They are not mite-proof bees, so therefore one has to keep them going strong one way or another. Whatever way one can, in my opinion. But you won't get it by beating the woods for escaped swarms that probably came off some truckload from Florida or Southern California or who knows where. I say start with good stock and make it better by raising queens from it. Making nucs is not that hard to do and if one makes them strong enough, they can raise their own queens if one doesn't have the time or know-how to do it by grafting. A strong 4 or 5 frame nuc can self-requeen and easily build up during the summer. By making as many nucs as you handle, you can better maintain a steady number, should many hives go down in the fall. One doesn't need special equipment, they can be made in normal single story hives. H. Abeille -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:09:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bob, Write a great article, and get the honest information out there so no one gets hurt, and we can all get along as beekeepers, and keep a good grower-to-beekeeper relationship. The beekeeping industry is riding on the almond growers' coattails, and it is in both of our best interests to work together to solve our problems, i.e., supplying bees for pollination, and dealing with Varroa and other bee problems. The almond growers have stepped up to the plate by financing a huge amount of bee research, and by offering us more money. It's up to the beekeepers to supply them strong, healthy colonies at a reasonable price. "Reasonable" means that we must be able to stay in business. As one participant at a Calif meeting earlier this year said (something to the effect of), "my livelihood depends upon the income from 1000 colonies. When the price of honey is down, it's up to almonds to make up the difference. If, due to Varroa, viruses, drought, etc. I only can keep 500 colonies strong, I need to double my pollination price just to stay even." The almond growers need to understand that beekeepers aren't gouging them, we're just trying to stay in business! Another addition to the almond problem: Education Educate the almond growers about the big difference between renting boxes and renting bees! Many have become much more educated in the past 10 years re frame strength. There is conflicting research as to optimum, but a stronger colony has many more foragers available to fly than a weaker colony that needs to devote its workers to keeping the brood nest warm and fed. On cold days in the almonds, a 12-frame colony will be flying like mad, when a 6-framer is huddled up (there is also a huge genetic variability for cool-weather flight, with dark bees often flying when Italians are inside on the sofa). IMHO, a 4-framer or less is junk, and an 8-framer is the minimum size to take in. Note that I'm not saying 8-frame average, but 8-frame minimum! Averages include some non-pollinating junk. Some years ago, unscrupulous beekeepers (yes, there are a few) would take in honey-filled deadouts, and charge for them as "colonies," knowing that robbing bees flying in and out would show a lot of activity that would food an unsuspecting grower. In fact, those hives actually diverted bees away from pollination! This really pissed off the grower if he found out. In response, respectible brokers like Joe Traynor, Mike Rosso, and others set up grading programs, so almond growers could actually get what they were paying for (and reward beekeepers who had strong bees). As far as "California grading," on a double deep, with most of the cluster in the top box, you will see a 2" band of bees at the top of the lower frames if you split the boxes. They don't count as frames of bees! You must look at each box from both top and bottom to see how many frames are fully covered! Colonies without frames of emerging sealed brood just before move in will dwindle, as well as queenless, drone layers, and AFB infested. You gotta look at your bees! Yes, I'm making $150 for my colonies, but I work hard to get there--management, feeding tons of pollen in the Fall, and lots of labor time. I earn my money by being a bee keeper, not a box jockey. You also need to breed for stock that builds up early! I have 12-frame colonies with 6 or more frames of sealed brood on February 10th. If you midwest guys had that, your bees would starve before the snow melted! However, you have great Fall pollen flows that we don't have, and strong midwestern colonies can build up early with the right management and timing. BTW, by my math, an individual honeybee worker now hires out for about 1¢ for the month of almond bloom! ($15 per 70% covered frame, 2 frames/ lb of bees, ~3500 bees/lb = 1¢ per bee) Randy Oliver Calif -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:04:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Cox Subject: Re: mite resistant queens In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Randy, What is the "Bond" method??? Kathy Cox ~ Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets At 08:09 AM 2/12/2006, you wrote: >I've selected from survivors for years, and resistance gets better each >year. I'm using the Bond method to some extent, but it is tough when you >make your living taking strong colonies to almonds in February. Therefore, >we can't count on California breeders to practice much survivability trials. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:53:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: California Almond Bloom: 2006 To The List, The following link gives an updated status of the 2006 California Almond Bloom, feel free to visit this site from timme to time, it can tell the beekeeper a lot. http://www.bluediamond.com/growers/field/index.cfm Hard to believe that another year has gone so quickly bye. Best regards to all for a wonderful springbuildup and honey season, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm http:www.mybeebusiness.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:15:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Hand operated Radial extractor designed for Top Bar Hives? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Guys, It this what you are looking for? http://www.betterbee.com/resources/newproducts.html Regards Dennis > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 17:59:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Betterbee Info Subject: Re: Hand operated Radial extractor designed for Top Bar Hives? In-Reply-To: <43F1051D.5010502@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis points to this URL: http://www.betterbee.com/resources/newproducts.html He is a bit ahead of me. The text for the extractor is there but no picture. The page is hybrid of 05 and 06 info. For those inquiring, the extractor is not yet available. Swienty is still in the production stages. We hope to have it in our warehouse in the next couple of months. It can hold 4 medium or shallow frames or 3 deep. The frames are laid flat in the extractor rather than stood upright. It is a parallel radial extractor which is more efficient than most other non-commercial extractors out there. The design is "pancake" like making easy to store under a work bench or in the corner. If you have any other questions feel free to email me direct. Cheers, Shane Betterbee, Inc 8 Meader Road Greenwich, NY 12834 1-800-632-3379 Orders 1-518-692-9802 Info/Fax www.betterbee.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 19:06:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Re: Propolis Component Helps Prevent Colon Cancer MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Waggle" > This indicated directly that the plant origin of > Brazilian propolis is B. dracunculifolia. > > Here's a file that includes info on the matter and a > photo of B. dracunculifolia. > > "Direct Evidence for the Plant Origin of Brazilian > Propolis by the Observation of Honeybee Behavior and > Phytochemical Analysis" Is it known if all races of honey bees exhibit this same behavior or is it race specific. Can someone identify the race(s) of be shown in the article? Alden Marshall Hudson, NH 03051 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 20:42:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Going to San Diego In-Reply-To: <002301c630fc$0420ad20$6500a8c0@BLINE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I will be in San Diego, California on the weekend of the 11th and 12th of March. Supposedly I will have the afternoons off. Are there any beekeepers in the area who would appreciate a visit from a beekeeper from southern Alabama? Mike Stoops Located 90 miles NNE of Mobile, Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 22:12:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Obstacles to Certifying Honey Organic Producers feeling the sting from inability to obtain right to use 'organic' label Kelly Stone, Grand Forks Herald (USA), 2/13/2006 When you think of honey, you probably think of words like "healthy," "pure" or "natural." But you might be surprised to hear that, currently, it's impossible for U.S. honey producers to get their product certified as organic. Dr. Marla Spivak, a University of Minnesota entomologist, says while Europe and Canada have standards in place for certifying organic honey, there are no such standards yet in the United States. Spivak says under existing USDA guidelines, it may be difficult, if not impossible, to create honey certification standards. Right now, USDA classifies bees as livestock. To certify livestock as organic, producers must prove that the animals have not come into contact with certain chemicals or genetically modified material. While cattle ranchers can confine their herd with fences, bees fly freely up to 10 miles from their hive in search of pollen and nectar. Spivak says it's unrealistic to expect beekeepers to control so much surrounding farmland. . . See: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:40:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Assume nothing! (Was: Propolis Component Helps Prevent Colon Cancer) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > --- Alden Marshall asked: > > > Can someone identify the race(s) > > of bee shown in the > > article? > and Joe Waggle answered, > One could assume it's an African bee ... Personally, the first thought in my mind when I read the original question was, "How can we even know if the bees shown in the article were actually the bees featured in the article?" Assume nothing. Aaron Morris - thinking, "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog!" http://www.unc.edu/depts/jomc/academics/dri/idog.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 04:32:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Propolis Component Helps Prevent Colon Cancer In-Reply-To: <002301c630fc$0420ad20$6500a8c0@BLINE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Alden Marshall wrote: > Is it known if all races of honey bees exhibit > this same behavior or is > it race specific. Can someone identify the race(s) > of be shown in the > article? One could assume it's an African bee, almost all honeybees kept in Brazil have African origins. The behavior as you mention may be important to note here as African bees in Brazil are known to collect a large amount of propolis. JW __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 08:20:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: African genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >One could assume it's an African bee, almost all honeybees kept in Brazil have African origins. One reason you see beekeepers in Brazil able to handle bees with AHB genetics is because most have a strict schedule of requeening with European queens. One told me last week he felt if he goes to requeening twice a year with European queens all his hives he will solve most of the aggression problems. He now requeens all the hives with European queens once a year. In short commercial beekeepers in Brazil have been flooding the area with European queens now for 49 years on a regular basis. They have been depopulating aggressive hives and removing the genetics from the gene pool. Steve Tabor said do nothing about AHB and the problem will solve itself in thirty years. Sorry Steve! The hypothesis made sense back in the 50's with the knowledge available then but not today. The method Brazil beekeepers use today IS the best solution. If they were not seeing results then they would have dropped the constant requeening and removing aggressive hives method years ago. *If* you can keep pure African genetics below a certain percent you get a workable AHB. The problem is and always has been that in areas of African genetics with supercedure and AHB drones in the area a few hives will begin to carry over 50% AHB in F2 -F4 generations. *IMPORTANT* AHB can get to the F4 or F5 level in weeks (unlike our European bees) due simply to swarming every couple weeks and supercedure. Everything Steve Tabor said about wrote about AHB *genetics* forty years ago is true today. The constant requeening of AHB hives with European stock IS the reason why you see pictures of bees which can be worked easily in Brazil. Taming AHB is not realistic by selective breeding between *pure* scutellata for the average beekeeper. HOWEVER With instrumental insemination a hybrid (similar to Midnight/Starline) could be created. DNA testing would also need to be used in order to keep the AHB donor source at a certain percent AHB level( 25%/50% or 75% ) although some might disagree. YOU could not use a queen with a percent AHB as she would be producing drones with AHB . You would have to use a drone to introduce the AHB genetics in my opinion.Otherwise you would see AHB genetics increase in your bees and you would be producing AHB drones. PURE EUROPEAN QUEENS PRODUCE EUROPEAN DRONES. I think I have got the above correct after years of research. Bob Ps. Ask a simple question from Bob Harrison and above is what you get. "beekeeping is both simple & complicated at the same time" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:59:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: African genetics In-Reply-To: <002a01c63171$dc327e80$2dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It is this kind of answer that we need. I, for one, and glad to hear it. For one thing, it answers a question that I was asked by a queen rearing, nuc selling friend of mine. Basically what will he have to do when AHbs get into the feral population in the state where he raises his queens? Mark Bob Harrison wrote: >One could assume it's an African bee, almost all honeybees kept in Brazil have African origins. One reason you see beekeepers in Brazil able to handle bees with AHB genetics is because most have a strict schedule of requeening with European queens. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:16:49 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Curry Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: <20060213221235.84d281a5f2f7df0ef38485a84124037d.e35fb1c664.wbe@email.email.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit These are the UK regulations: *_Summary of the Key Standards for Organic Honey Production:_* 1. Siting of Apiary – must be on certified organic land that must not be treated with weed killers etc. 2. Hives – must be made of natural, untreated timber. (no mention of plastics?) 3. Conversion period – 12 months of organic management, during which time the wax must be changed to organic wax. 4. Origin of bees – 10% of the hives in an apiary can be replaced/increased using non-organic queens or swarms, provided that organic wax (from organic hives) is used. In this case the 12 month conversion period does not apply. 5. Foundation and comb – must be of organic wax, except when an apiary is first converted and organic wax is unavailable. 6. Foraging – for a radius of 3km (EU regs) or 4 miles (Soil Association) around the apiary, nectar and pollen sources must be essentially either organic or wild/uncultivated. This area must not be subject to significant sources of pollution from eg: motorways, urban centres, incinerators, etc.. (what hope do we have?) This is the only significant difference between the EU and the Soil Association standards in the area of honey production. 7. Feeding – must be organic honey (one of the Eurocratic eccentricities!) or organic sugar and this may only take place between the last honey harvest and 15 days before the first nectar flow. 8. Disease control – similar to other livestock husbandry, the priority is to build up good health and vitality through positive management practices. Homeopathic and herbal treatments and natural acids (Lactic, acetic, formic and oxalic) may be used without restriction. Other medication requires veterinary prescription, the wax must be replaced and there must be a withdrawal period of one year. 9. Queen rearing – artificial insemination is allowed but wing clipping is prohibited. 10. Extraction and bottling – no requirements beyond the normal measures to ensure separation and product integrity. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:23:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herve Abeille Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. Comments: To: The Anonymous Buzzing Bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > 9. Queen rearing – artificial insemination is allowed but wing clipping is prohibited. You see what happens when people who know nothing about bees are in charge of regulating us. Clipping wings is not organic?! Is it OK for me to clip my fingernails?! How about pulling the weeds around the hives ... Herve -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:38:41 -0500 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: Almond Pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For Randy Oliver, I enjoyed reading your recent comments regarding the pollination events currently in progress and found much of interest and value in your statements to the matter. I would take issue however with a couple of the adjectives used regarding Mid-west bees and their propensity to be judged as "shitty bees". Having only stepped into an almond grove as recently as last spring, I don't have the experience with pollination and the California response to the needs involved therein, but I have recently returned after spending a week helping a friend there who places over 10,000 hives who is a third generation beekeeper and has much experience with pollination. In the week I was there, we went through thousands of colonies and combined truckloads of bees down to numbers usually approximating a third of the original amounts (some far worse) that were what I would refer to now as "Almond Grove Swarmers". One group of five truckloads was reduced to only 700 "pollinators" that woul! d make the grade. I know from this one experience that this beekeeper will not: 1. Pay for his trucking bill. 2. Recover from the loss in numbers in time to raise a honey crop. 3. Pay for his management expenses while his AGS colonies are building up in the almond groves. 4. Spend the entire year questioning a future return to California. and lastly: Face the ultimate question of just why in the hell am I in this business? It seemed to me as though someone were crushing the sound foot of an industry hobbling along on crutches already, with no concern for those who might bleed to death. I had many questions while there as to why all of these beekeepers with an absolute millenia of history in the business send "shitty bees" to California? Then after being there for a week, some of the fog rolled up over the Sierras and my sky began clearing if but only a little. Have you ever been a beekeeper in the Midwest? Do you know that many of our bees have been selectively bred for their overwintering abilities and their conservative nature which boils down to surviving on the smallest number of bees possible? Have bees like this been shipped to California in the past and built up to large numbers sufficent to do the job at hand? Have the almond growers been producing poor crops in recent years due to midwest beekeepers sending semiloads of crappy boxes of sick bees in an attempt to extort cash from them? Is this all new "shit"?. I hope that you find most of the answers to these questions as easily as I did and personally feel that you have underevaluated the situation by a marginal amount and underestimated the intelligence of the average commercial beekeeper in the midwest. For our colonies to be displaying 6 frames of wall to wall brood on February 10th, we will have to ship them to either Texas or California for the winter. ! Texas means additional shipping and though it has its advantages, with rising fuel costs everyone will probably end up in southern California. Do you really want another million hives in the state for the winter spreading disease and discontent? And in regards to the border inspections. Do you think anybody is going to risk $ 4,700.00 a load each way to ship bees that will be turned down due to a no tolerance level for the hive beetle that is already in existence in California? That entire thing is like giving a months supply of birth control pills to your pregnant daughter! I was personally involved in a group of 200 hives that were sent to another broker for placement and these hives were selected from the best of almost 1000 hives and some were still boosted up with additional bees. After inspection, 92 of these were judged not up to pollinator (ASH) levels. While we are aware that there are allowances for time of day and temperature, is there any way to accurately and fairly judge all of the hives that are placed in the almonds? If so, just who writes the book and determines that all of the variables, coefficients and multipliers are correct and accurate for the type of pollination and the specific variety of the pollination target? Will there be an adjustment for the experience and education level of those doing the examinations? Who dermines just how many bees are necessary? Who says when bees hang over into the bottom box but only cover 3,4 or 5 inches, they don't count at all? If there aren't inspectors in the county, what a! gency is responsible for the inspection. I stopped while there in the Modesto area and looked at three groves that had bees already placed on the 2nd of February and one of the groves was occupied by a branded California beekeeper and the other two were banded and covered with black tarpaper and I made the assumption that they were CA bees as well. It was in the 60's and after a quick inspection of those that weren't banded found about half of these to be 4 and 5 framers much like the bees I had been looking at from the mid-west. Are all CA bees inspected as well? And then theres the really important questions: What's the real purpose and benefit? Who's the beneficiary? Who pays the cost? And do the benefits of the program justify the cost? I wouldn't say that I'm not in favor of a program as long as it is uniform and non-discriminatory. For my situation, this year was pretty much a wash even with high prices. Reducing my colonies by a third by combining before they ever left Kansas, I thought with the 15 - 20 % that were busting with bees, I would easily meet my minimums. Not!!!! After arriving my hives were again reduced by another 30% just to meet the minimum on all of my remaining hives. And that was a pretty good figure compared to many. If I had the reductions like I saw from beekeepers from South Dakota, Nebraska and Missouri as well, I think it would be my last attempt. The cost of this will be that many will not return and some may well go out of business. If the growers and the brokers do not get together and resolve this situation and real shortages do occur in the future, the border dams will break and it will be "Yo Quiero Pollinaccion!" And then you can put your $ 150.00 contracts under glass, on acid free backing board and preserve them with all of your fond memories. Then we can all get jobs making real money. Tim Tucker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:38:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Herve writes: Clipping wings is not organic?! Reply: You know reading this Herve, and thinking deeply now for several hours, why would it be organic to clip wings and lose natural supercedure that would go hand in hand with organic? But also, I can actually see II on a limited scale for improving stocklines, for organic breeders. But for both I would be relating to outbreeding programs only, for better acclimitized bees to match the local,native flora. Which brings me to another question with II: Why cannot it be used with outbreeding/mating for better genetics and not to just hold closed populations or like? Or is it and I just do not know about it...... Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 16:51:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hand operated Radial extractor designed for Top Bar Hives? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The question that occurs to me is Why? One of the essential features of a TBH is that it costs virtually nothing and the majority of users have very little money and other priorities for spending it. The wax, too can be an important part of the crop. So a radial extractor for TBHs is likely to have a very limited market. A honey press that could also be used to press other things, eg oil bearing seeds or cheese curd or fruit for juice would be far more useful. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:42:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Re: Hand operated Radial extractor designed for Top Bar Hives? In-Reply-To: <2ce.35cb53f.3123aaeb@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris Slade wrote: The question that occurs to me is Why? Apimondia The following is the press release from http://www.swienty.com/?pid=15&cid=13&gid= (Click on the Union Jack to bring up the English version) The winner of this year's "Best New Technical Invention" competition at the Apimondia in Dublin was the Danish company Swienty A/S for the prototype of a new radial hobby extractor called the "World Extractor". The extractor is intended for the global market, specifically at developing countries. The idea is to supply regions primarily utilizing topbar beehives with a new hygienic and efficient means of extraction aside from pressing. Usually beekeepers in developing countries will press their honey often using their bare hands, which lowers the honey yield as well as the hygiene of the finished product. The world extractor can solve both of these problems. Bjorn Andresen general manager at Swienty A/S and developer of the extractor maintains his focus: "The machine IS still aimed at the global market, with the developing countries being the center of attention." - He says and explains further: "The World Extractor was developed to help developing countries optimize their honey production, which is what we intend to do. We believe this extractor will have a great impact on their ability to sell their honey for a better price, and at the same time make the entire extraction process a lot easier, which is exactly what we want. We do, of course, run a business, but we believe the best way to do that is to actually give the beekeepers something they can use to make their own business better." The Extractor is expected to hit the market sometime during 2006, as soon as the last improvements have been implemented and the last tests have been conducted. There is more information at the above link, but I think this answers your question Chris. Tom Patterson, Aurora, Colorado -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:08:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herve Abeille Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. Dee Lusby >You know reading this Herve, and thinking deeply now for >several hours, why would it be organic to clip wings and >lose natural supercedure that would go hand in hand with >organic? I do not follow you at all. What does it even have to do with supersedure? There is nothing to be lost by clipping wings. This technique has been used for well over 100 years to mark the queen and prevent her from flying off with a swarm. I honestly have NO IDEA why anyone would object to it. Although I have heard that some vegans oppose cutting queen cells. These people prove the old saying that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Never thought I'd see the day when non-beekeepers would start telling me how to do my job. Herve -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:49:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Comments: To: Tim Tucker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Thanks for your post Tim! Those of you which attended the ABF convention in Louisville might remember Tim's beekeeping presentations. Tim is also president of the Kansas Honey Producers. Beekeeping is a tough business. One I have been involved in for over forty years. Beekeepers are commercial beekeepers because they love beekeeping. Many less trying ways to make a living. In my opinion needless hardship has been placed on these out of state beekeepers. They are real people with families. Many will go out of business. Privately I am told almond growers were talked into the new policy by a broker. So far we have heard from two California beekeepers and two Midwest beekeepers on the list. I have heard from at least two brokers privately. Does a broker want to address Tim's concerns. After all your paycheck is supposed to be coming from us. I have been involved in California almond pollination for awhile. It should be your main concern to see what happened this year is avoided. Not stand back and let happen. I hope a broker is not behind the problem. People are talking and pointing fingers. The truth will come out.Many say one broker is behind the problem. What is the broker position? Who hired and set up the grading crews? Who set the rules? Based on what? You might as well tell your side of the issue as your friends have already told me. I write the article the end of the week. I have got plenty of information. I most likely will not agree with your side of the issue but I will listen to your side and try to explain your reasons honestly in the article. I think a broker or almond grower needs to step up and explain to the out of state beekeepers why they were screwed. These same beekeepers gave you last years bumper crop of almonds. What happened was not a slap on the wrist. it put some beekeepers out of business and quite frankly they want to see the almond growers suffer the same. Many say they will never use the almond grower prostitute broker again. The brokers and growers have emailed me privately why they did what they did. I guess if the list does not hear in a day or so I will try and explain (without using names ) what the have said to me for my article. Give us a few words. I would also show compassion if I were you. Keeping silent is not going to start the healing. Hint: I would say that when the policy was set up you did not dream only one out of three hives would under your new rules be rejected if that's the case. My opinion is you knew two out of three would be rejected based on years of looking into hives from the Midwest. The whole grading process was done on purpose to make a statement to out of state beekeepers. Snitches which are spilling their guts and what they are saying is ugly. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:07:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: re almond MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Tim There are no easy solutions to this pollination problem, but here's my = take on a few. We Calif. keepers can't supply all the bees needed ,so = other keepers from other states are needed, that's not all bad, as some = of us Calif. keepers send them East during the summer. But my head spins when I hear keepers going through a couple thousand = hives a week, maybe they have an army for a work force. As to the investment of trucking, yard fees, wear and tear on ALL the = equipment, I think I would spend time in Nov, Dec, & part of Jan feeding = pollen & syrup and mite controls, then you would not feel so exhausted. = As to the third generation beekeeper, it sounds like somebody's = been asleep at the wheel, drop and go days are over. No longer can you = bring bees to Calif in early Nov. and expect them to be ok in mid Jan. = But if you charge the growers $150 or so, you should be able to spend a = little time and $$$ in them. If you had, I don't think you would have = found yourself in this spot. I don't mean to ruffle anybody's feathers, but beekeeping has change 180 = degrees in recent years. After the Almonds, I shake bees for out-of-staters, 15,000 pounds = worth, to fill up their dead outs. I hope they continue to take the = winter off. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 23:57:31 -0500 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: Almond Pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Keith Thanks for the input and I agree completely that beekeeping has changed 180 degrees. We do invest much time effort and dollars into the average hive and have never prepared as hard for the trip as this fall. But things are just different environmentally between California and everything east of the Sierras clear to the east coast if you are as far North as Kansas. We have had to choose in the past, when pollination prices were below $75.00 whether we would go to almonds or just stay here and make a honey crop. If I can stay here, we can accomplish the task of prividing honey to our customers and maybe selling nucs and run the whole gamut for a package production total of well in excess of $ 75.00 per hive. The trip to California is not without its costs and when you face the loss of 2/3 rds of your production units, there is no replacing those lost dollars. We do not have the weather to produce large booming hives in the fall no matter the amount of syrup and pol! len that are put into the equation. Our wintering bees are raised in August and September and after October 15th when the bottom falls out of our Average Daily Temps, you can't bribe a Russian Queen or Carniolan and most Italians to go against their instinctual guidelines and continue rearing brood. Yes, we always have a few Italians that go on and maybe we need to be breeding from these for future pollinators but these have their problems as well in that they make treating for mites a continual battle. Often times these monster hives crash during the first month of warm weather and will often dissappoint you the most. I've seen small clusters deal with the mites and viruses much better that build up and surpass these large overwintering hives due to the queens just not reinitiating egg laying functions after the winter solstice, due to the large numbers of old bees in the boxes, bees that will be dying in mass in February. We don't go out to the area where our be! es were placed in November due to the cold weather there. Most of Dec ember and January it was warmer in southern Kansas than it was in Sacramento and Modesto. Last year would have been a nightmare wintering there. If wintering in California, I wouldn't do it much farther North than just North of Bakersfield. But we could talk of the difficulties and strategies for the next few years and not resolve this issue. Nobody was expecting just to drop, run and collect 150 dollars for the effort. Nobody I knew with enough hives to send, spent a minute less than what we felt necessary to keep the bees in their best condition possible. This is how we make a living and we hope to continue doing so. Nobody I knew was expecting the bar being set so high that there just was no way an out of state colony would make the grade. We did what we had to do, since the bees were arriving daily and that was to combine like crazy and this undid much hard work and the costs are horrendous. I now have work to do that would never have been required in years past. In stead of working here getting ready for the return of the bees in late March, I am trying to find the right time to book another flight back to help manage these combined units that will be hanging in the trees by mid-March if we don't work to prevent it. You used to be able to come out of the almonds and go to Texas, make 3 to 1 splits and still make it home for the nectar flow. But now that's all changed and splits will have to be made in the almonds. So were spending lots of dollars on the bees this year and the returns aren't there to justify the Investment of Equity. If I had to sell this program to a ! banker he'd split a side laughing and I'd probably join in. Wish I had some dollars left so you could shake some bees for me and fill my empties sitting out there, but you probably wouldn't do that just now! Do you take Discover? Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:18:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: re almond In-Reply-To: <006f01c631d4$8721b9c0$73e0f7a5@hrgmy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "CN honey@jps.net" wrote:..... I think I would spend time in Nov, Dec, & part of Jan feeding pollen & syrup and mite controls, ....... Can you feed clustered bees sugar syrup and pollen patties when outside temps are 20 degrees at the most and sometimes closer to 0 than 20? That cluster ain't gonna break to take your feed. Mike --------------------------------- What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:08:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Herve writes: I do not follow you at all. What does it even have to do with supersedure? There is nothing to be lost by clipping wings. This technique has been used for well over 100 years to mark the queen and prevent her from flying off with a swarm. Reply: Exactly, clipping prevents her from flying off with a swarm to leave the new supercedure queen to take over. This is exactly what is needed on a natural organic system of beekeeping, for acclimitized queens with openmating. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:43:27 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You know reading this Herve, and thinking deeply now for > several hours, why would it be organic to clip wings and > lose natural supercedure that would go hand in hand with > organic? It might go hand in hand for some people but I do not believe that clipping wings stops the product i.e. honey being organic. How can it? Organic is one thing but the way of keeping bees which does not involve clipping wings is another. After all, cattle are branded and males castrated but they can still produce organic beef despite the fact that the male has now been deprived of the ability to produce offspring. I do not know if the same rules for organic apply elsewhere as here in Australia but here is another rule that, to me, has no rationale to it. If I sell a queen bee to an organic producer and he requeens his hive with it, the first extraction after the hive is requeened is not organic but after that it is. Now how does the queen affect the organic nature of the honey. Also if I sell him a queen cell that comes from a non-organic hive, as long as he mates it in his organic nuc, the resultant queen is classed as organic. Where is the rationale there? Trevor Weatherhead Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:13:36 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Organic Honey Certification /II In-Reply-To: <20060214203827.31597.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee & all > with II: Why cannot it be used with outbreeding/mating for better > genetics and not to just hold closed populations or like? II is a method of controlling mating, either producing 'special' matings or 'ordinary' matings... What the male and female components of the system are, does not come into it, as you can choose both female genetic side and genetics of the drones, as well as the numbers of drones involved. In fact if it is outbreeding that you desire for your purpose, you can use homogenised semen from large numbers of drones and produce outbred bees by II with far more diversity than any naturally mated queen (up to several hundred patrilines). You may equate outbreeding with better genetics, but outbreeding does not result in 'better genetics', just greater 'diversity'. One very good reason for using II in a closed population is to ensure that the diversity within that population is kept high enough. A closed population may only contain a few hundreds or low thousands of strains, if you are working with a bee of low mating frequency (like most of US) you are always more in danger of running into inbreeding, whether by natural mating or II, than if you are working with a bee that exhibits a higher mating frequency. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 08:56:02 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=E3o=20Campos?= Subject: African genetics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > One reason you see beekeepers in Brazil able to handle bees with > AHB genetics is because most have a strict schedule of requeening > with European queens. Bob, I'm sorry, but it's absolutely not true. First, the absolute majority of beekeepers in Brazil simply *do not requeen*. They catch new swarms with bait hives (which is extremely easy here), make splits at the end of the season and let the queenless hives produce their own queens. Commercial beekeepers tend to requeen more, but most produce their queens from the best colonies. Only a minor part buy mated queens from breeders. Second, european stocks in Brazil are as rare as rhinoceros in Florida (surely you can find some in zoos...). What exists here is a couple of queen raisers who "bring" (don't legally import, AFAIK) mated italian queens from southern Argentina and use them as breeders. Then sell their open-mated daughters to a handful of beekeepers, and make a lot of noise in Brazilian discussion groups. Just to put it in perspective, discussions about africanized x europeans bees here have the same intensity of the dance language controversy, being "europeanists" proportionally as numerous as DL challengers. Specifically about propolis productivity, important Brazilian breeders (and some commercial beekeepers as well) have worked hard to select better africanized bees, because of the increasing interest in green propolis in Asia. Some have thought of importing caucasian bees, because of their great propolis use, but with the success in this particular AHB selection, the idea soon faded out. I'm not sure if you talked to another Brazilian beekeeper, or it was just my poor English that bewildered you when I said in BeeSource that I'm thinking of requeening twice a year. My intention is to get more control over *swarming*, which, as I said there, is the trait that bothers me the most. I would really like to work with a more gentle bee, but that's not a top priority for me. As I have said before, I'm not interested in trading aggressiveness for diseases/pests vulnerability, so it's unlikely that I will work with an European bee in the near future, unless a new resistant European race shows up. And I can assure you that almost 100% of the BKs I talk with share this opinion. Regards from the far south. Joăo Campos Porto Alegre - Brazil _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 07:16:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herve Abeille Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. >Exactly, clipping prevents her from flying off with a swarm >to leave the new supercedure queen to take over. This is >exactly what is needed on a natural organic system of >beekeeping, for acclimitized queens with openmating. I don't know how to respond to this exactly. You are conflating swarming with supersedure. I don't think more than 5 percent of our colonies ever swarm, if even that -- clipped or not clipped. Supersedure, on the other hand, is very frequent. Some of the time the new queen begins to lay with the old queen still there. The bees kill her once they are satisfied with the new one. All the same, we don't want supersedure at all and that's why we mark queens. We want queens we have raised from selected stock. Organic beekeeping doesn't require mongrels, does it? If so, count me out. H -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 07:30:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Betterbee Info Subject: Re: Hand operated Radial extractor designed for Top Bar Hives? In-Reply-To: <2ce.35cb53f.3123aaeb@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote: So a radial extractor for TBHs is likely to have a very limited market. I should clarify that this extractor will be useful all frames not just those from TBHs. As for its utility and cost effectiveness for those running TBH, that will be for them to decide. Cheers, Shane Betterbee, Inc 8 Meader Road Greenwich, NY 12834 1-800-632-3379 Orders 1-518-692-9802 Info/Fax www.betterbee.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:35:29 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: <20060215060819.38052.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <20060215060819.38052.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com>, Dee Lusby writes >Exactly, clipping prevents her from flying off with a swarm >to leave the new supercedure queen to take over. That's not supercedure. That is swarming. And clipping wings merely delays it and in the end she will go anyway and either get lost in the grass or end up on a nearby weed, even a pancake on the ground. True supercedure, the orderly replacement of the mother with her daughter is completely unaffected by clipping. Supercedure rarely (but not absolutely always) does not result in the departure of a swarm. I clip and mark ALL our queens the spring after their birth so last summers queens all get marked in April this year. Organic rules are things with complex origins however, and are a mix of practical ideas, animal rights, and lifestyle statements. I have had in-depth conversations with a senior figure in this field (chair of the comittee of the Soil Association that devised these rules) and found that far from having closed minds they are open to realistic suggestions. Some of the things written elsewhere have been erroneous interpretations of what is in the rules, and even more particularly, how they are interpreted by the bodies concerned. It CAN be done in the UK and no doubt in the US, but not just anywhere. Sorry, if your bees are a a conventional agriculture area *at production time* it cannot be done. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:59:42 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message , Murray McGregor writes >Supercedure rarely (but not absolutely always) does not result in the >departure of a swarm. Grammatic error. Above statement is nonsense. Should read:- Supercedure rarely (but not absolutely always) results in the departure of a swarm. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:26:26 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Clipping prevent the queen from flying off, the bees reurn to the colony and will swarm (with the young queen) if more than one queen cell has been reared. with supercedure the two queens stay in the same colony until the older queen perishes. Clipping has no effect on supercedure. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dee Lusby" > > Exactly, clipping prevents her from flying off with a swarm > to leave the new supercedure queen to take over. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:05:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Almond Pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To All, We are just beginning to see the worms coming out of the pecan woodwork; I wonder if the scenarios recently described here on BEE-L are representative of a small area, a single county? Or is this a situation that encompasses a broad expanse of the 2006 California Almond Pollination. If the later holds true the almond business will be in far worse trouble than that of the beekeepers who with good intentions brought their hives to the Golden State. The simple fact is that the almond growers need bees for pollination more than the beekeepers need the grower’s pollination fees! The whole situation fires me up so much that I want to write an article about the situation but I have already committed to another subject for my April article. Plantings of pecans will create an ever-increasing demand upon the beekeepers of this country due to the thousands of acres of almonds coming into production within the next few years. Canada through political pressure may be able to allow hives to go south across the border supplement the demand; however, the degree of Africanization in California will not in my opinion allow their return unless Canada were to become Africanized. Packages from Australia of three or four pounds would seem to me to be simply inadequate after reading the fine essays of Tucker, Harrison, and others. In order for packages to work 6 to eight pounds of bees would be required to start on drawn comb one to two months before the bloom. That’s too costly even at $125.00 a hive! That leaves the U.S. Beekeeper. Unless the Beekeeper can come into California and be treated with the same RULES AND STANDARDS over the entire State with pollination contracts having unilateral published and realistic standards of colony strength; objective inspectors under State employment that neither the grower nor the local Beekeeper Inspector can unduly influence; and border inspections that are realistic to the environment there will remain a shortage of honeybees for almond pollination in the years to come. As for me I would rather go hunting with Sure Shot Dick than send my hives off to a land 2600 miles away and have them all come back in different hives than they went and a whole lot empty. It’s not worth the worry and hassle! Sincerely, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm 330 Irvin Street Reidsville, NC 27320 Tel: 336 342 4490 http://www.mybeebusiness.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 07:07:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Murray writes: True supercedure, the orderly replacement of the mother with her daughter is completely unaffected by clipping. Reply: True for orderly replacement of the mother. But having a queen try to flyout crippled, who cannot forfill her destiny if left allowed is somehow wrong. Do we cripple other animals so they cannot continue their life cycle? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 07:23:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: African genetics In-Reply-To: <20060215115602.24957.qmail@web33409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joao writes: My intention is to get more control over *swarming*, which, as I said there, is the trait that bothers me the most. Reply: This is easily corrected IMPOV by repositioning of combs with housel positioning. It alleviated over 95% of our swarming in our commercial operation, and resulted also with better drawnout combs, and hive growth/expansion. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 07:47:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification /II In-Reply-To: <43F2F0C0.7080202@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave writes: You may equate outbreeding with better genetics, but outbreeding does not result in 'better genetics', just greater 'diversity'. Reply: Yes, and this is needed for variability expansion for more choice after stabilizing with survivialability. From then on, time of year is used in a modified outbreeding program, but it is a time-consuming process. Dave continues: One very good reason for using II in a closed population is to ensure that the diversity within that population is kept high enough. Reply: Still, why could not II be used with an open-mated program with time of year selection/usage to help with more uniform matings of selected breeders for both queens and drones in the field? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:34:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] African genetics Comments: cc: jbacampos@YAHOO.COM.BR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This message was originally submitted by rossybee@TERRA.CL to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. In response to Joăo Campos' assertion, "it's absolutely not true. First, the absolute majority of beekeepers in Brazil simply *do not requeen*...." > rossybee@terra.cl [mailto:rossybee@terra.cl] wrote: > > Hi I'm going to make you only two questios:how many hives do > you work with, and how much honey do you harvest in one year. > > Rossy Castillo -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:36:38 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification /II In-Reply-To: <20060215154751.72045.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee > Reply: > Still, why could not II be used with an open-mated program > with time of year selection/usage to help with more uniform > matings of selected breeders for both queens and drones in > the field? I'm afraid you will have to re-phrase that before I can understand it, let alone answer it. > From then on, time of year is used in a modified > outbreeding program, The problem with using outbreeding extensively, is that you can gain 'uniformity' at the expense of quality. The bee breeder should be aiming at high standards as well as uniform behaviour, not just perpetuating mediocre standards because of consistency and the ease of achieving it. There is always a need for selection of the good and destruction of the bad, otherwise you end up with 'junk', maybe that junk is consistent, but it is still junk. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:59:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Hand operated Radial extractor designed for Top Bar Hives? In-Reply-To: <20060215123306.BXKU8652.rrcs-fep-11.hrndva.rr.com@Shane> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Guys, The simplicity and utility of this extractors design can easily be seen in the photos. The fact that it works with tbh comb is a plus. But the real value is for a beekeeper with a limited number of hives. I'm still running a combination of tbh and Langs. But it's not extracting tbh comb that attracts me. It's for my standard stuff. It's the perfect extractor for me. The design is so simple and elegant, I just don't know why it wasn't developed before. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:41:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: African genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joao & All, You are not a commercial beekeeper? Do not make your living from keeping AHB bees? I only ask as the people I am talking to are. I respect your opinion and as you say we have talked before and in fact talked about this very subject. My only purpose for being on here is to help beekeepers learn. You speak excellent English as compared to my other friends from your area. I am happy the primitive methods you are using are working for you but there are better ways. Lets at least talk about those ways. I had quite a few emails from my fans saying my post was right on. Here is quotes from one in broken English as sent. The beekeeper is a lurker on BEE-L. Hope he does not mind. If you are reading and upset with me quoting from your private email please understand my ONLY reason is to show Joao others do not feel the same way as he does. "Bob,I want ot congratulate you for being so clear about the problem with AHB. I hope your message will be read for the people from Argentina and Brazil because Brazil specialist in genetics, since several years, are trying to export to Argentina and to others countries AHB, telling that there is no problem to work with them, they are better producing honey and they are better than Italian bees. Anybody who's a" beekeeper" knows the truth you are telling in your mail, the rest are only "bee havers" Thanks a lot for your information." I apologize to the South American beekeeper for using part of his email to prove a point. I get many emails from "lurkers' (people which prefer to read and not post). Keep the emails coming and hopefully you will eventually feel like posting to the list! One of the people I have been talking to *is* the queen breeder in Argentina shipping in the Italian queens. He does not own the operation but manages the operation for a beekeeper in another country. Commercial beekeepers were buying shipping containers of bee boxes made in Argentina from the area and saw a need for European queens (mainly because of the problems with AHB) so set up the rearing operation. Barry Seargant of South Africa saw that the method Joao describes is as primitive as it gets so he learned how to do instrumental insemination ( II) and tame AHB. Selecting from AHB can be done with II.but requeening each year is an important part of the plan. Barry S. catches and uses around 600 swarms of "Scut" each year to produce honey before capensis takes over the hives and kills the colony. Barry has done many posts on BEE-L about his methods. At his house he keeps a line of gentle bees with some AHb genetics kept gentle with II. I am glad you think your method is working but geneticists, others from your area and South Africa have tried and failed. YOUR METHOD IS BETTER THAN COMPLETE LEAVE ALONE AHB BEEKEEPING! You are doing some requeening of undesirable genetics. After 49 years of research it is hard to still say the method Joao is using is the best method. I respect you Joao hope we can agree to disagree. I side with those which disagree with you at your meetings in Brazil. Your neighbor above. Think about what I have said. Your friend, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:42:41 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: <20060215150740.14189.qmail@web51612.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <20060215150740.14189.qmail@web51612.mail.yahoo.com>, Dee Lusby writes >True for orderly replacement of the mother. But having a >queen try to flyout crippled, who cannot forfill her >destiny if left allowed is somehow wrong. Do we cripple >other animals so they cannot continue their life cycle? OK, but this is an opinion, side-stepping the actual point, and not related to the original assertion in which use of the term supercedure was synonymous with swarming. And the answer to your question is a definite YES, humans have done that to animals, and themselves, for many centuries. A clipped queen cannot continue her lifecycle? Apart from restraining a prized asset from flying heaven knows where, often to a place it will be a nuisance for those of us not fortunate/unfortunate enough to live in a virtually endless wilderness, pray tell how? -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 08:34:54 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Assume nothing! (Was: Propolis Component Helps Prevent Colon Cancer) In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092103312028@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron mentioned earlier about assuming nothing. More to the point, don’t believe everything you see and, especially, hear. A fellow beekeeper (I’ll call her “Betty”) works locally as a radio news reporter. Due to her schedule Betty didn’t feel she had the time to look after bees. I have the time so we split the cost of the bees, and divide the honey at season’s end. She provides the equipment and I look after them at her house. One afternoon I was tending her bees when Betty was getting home from work. Betty thought ‘a local beekeeper’ would provide a nice human interest section for her news program. So, as I was inspecting her hives, she took out her recorder and started interviewing me. Since the bees were well behaved, and it was a nice day, I didn’t have a veil on and was dressed in a tee shirt and jeans. Betty asked some general beekeeping questions along some good questions about Alaska beekeeping practices. A few days later the interview aired over the radio. In her news reporter voice leading up to the interview Betty began describing how I was dressed. She portrayed me as wearing a “bee-proof” veil, a white beekeeping suit tucked into rubber boots, and “sting-proof” gloves, none of which I was wearing at the time, but I guess that’s how the public expects a beekeeper to be dressed. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:36:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. i have noticed a general lack of knowledge on this board when it comes to the natural and organic food market. Instead of serious discussion on topics like artisinal and organic honey the ignorance of the market potential is displayed by poking fun at small details that are apperently not understood. Before the US government got involved in the oversight of the organic standards, the 2 or 3 large organic certification houses in the USA published guidelines and certified beekeepers as organic ( and still do). The fact that the US government has not included honey in the newer regs does not change the market realities. Many consumers are aware of the independent certification houses and value the name recognittion that they carry. With the advent of large multinational companies moving into the organic food production and distribution markets, many consumers are rightly suspect of these corporations influence in Washington on changes proposed to the organic standards. This is big money! There are places in the lower 48 where organic production could be certified, mostly in the western and northern regions. Its ironic as the wholesale market for honey has slowly collasped that many beekeepers have not recognized that the natural and organic food sections in most grocery stores including Walmart and Target are rapidly expanding and offers numerous opportunities for beekeepers to get $5-$10 per pound for their honey. Yes beleive it or not I do care what my customers think about the ethics and practices I use in the keeping of my hives. They pay me well and I can lavish my bees with money and time that the commercial folks can only imagine as they chase small margins or the goldrush in California. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 14:41:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herve Abeille Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. >And the answer to your question is a definite YES, humans have done that to animals, and themselves, for many centuries. It took me less than 3 minutes to find an example of such practices being PERMITTED in organic farming Certified Organic Associations of British Columbia 8.8.2. Allowed 1) Artificial insemination 8.8.3. Regulated 1) Practices such as dehorning and branding and castration which are to be done in the most humane and least stressful manner possible. 2) Teeth clipping only when the sow's teats are injured. Herve -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 20:30:43 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Propolis and pregnant women. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone know if pregnant women should avoid ingesting propolis extract? Thanks, Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 21:49:46 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: mite resistant queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathy and All > What is the "Bond" method??? Bond, James Bond, 007: 'Live and Let Die'! In other words, the selection of genetically mite-resistant colonies from large numbers of colonies by deliberately witholding treatment. Gavin. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 15:09:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: RE; ALMONDS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Mike S. & Tim T. What I'm about to say is going to sound off the wall, but remember I'm = from Calif.,forty miles south east of Sacramento. First of all Mike, are you kidding about keeping bees in sub-zero = weather and then coming to Calif for the almonds ? Hello, is anyone = home, 1980'S with no mites are gone. Tim, you mention prepping the in the fall, you didn't say what took = place during the winter? =20 Here's how I run mine, January --December After I pull out of the Almonds I head for home , I drive right threw = cherry & apple country ( Stockton& Lodi ), it pays about $10-$15, I = don't stop the truck for anything under $30. I get home, place the bees = in 200 hive loads. I start shaking about April 1st, and pull about = 5lbs. of bees each shake, I shake about three rounds. At the beginning = of May I only have about 10 frames of bees, I typically split those in = half which leaves me about a 4 frame hive. Once I get everyone queened = right, I focus fairly heavily on the mites. I then go down to some = summer pollination (stock seed) around the middle of June. From there = on I set the throttle on cruse control. I don't do much after June = other than a few suppers and monitor mites (eather roll), from there I = have another job that I go to. I don't consider running this style with = 1500 colonies a full time job. =20 My two-ton averages 12000 miles a year, that will give you a little idea = how hard I'm running. If you figure $150 for almonds, $100 for bulk = bees and $35 for summer pollination, it adds up to somewhere around to = $275/hive.=20 A person has to find there own nitch, what works for me doesn't mean it = will work for someone else in a different area. =20 As to the fall, here in Calif. any kind of honey flow stops around = August, but we still have 100 degree days till mid October. Keeping = bees strong isn't a picnic here either. I do more bee work in the = months Nov. Dec, and Jan. than I do any other part of the year. Once I = get those hives brooding in the right direction, that's my main focus. = Remember, if you're brooding, your raising mites too. I focus on a = couple of things for revenue. If I had to chase honey at 80 cents a = pound I think I would flip burgers at MacDonald's instead. =20 Speaking of honey, I pack quite a bit of that stuff, I buy it from local = keepers in my area. They scratch their head when they come up and visit = at my Christmas party and see a nice Cowen auto-load system sitting = there collection dust. I sell to an outfit that has about 200 stores, = yes, I get pushed from other packers, but if the bakery calls at 10 = o'clock at night because they forgot to order, their honey is delivered = by 4AM that morning. Service goes a long way with price, and that goes = for almond growers as well. As far as the Australian package bees, I was at the Calif. beekeepers = Assoc. convention in Tahoe. A guy was giving a slide show about how = great they looked in the first part of May, double boxes of bees. I = looked over at a friend and said "Who in the hell wants double boxes of = bees in May?" Nintey percent of my revenue comes in from Feb.-April. = After that the bees are basically a liability. Mite controls: I know some bee keepers would have better chance killing flees off a dog = than they would a mite off a bee. They do these so called "tests", put = in some miticide and a sticky board underneath. They say they dropped = 50 mites or whatever, the first question I ask them is, "How do you know = you killed 100% that were there?" They just give me a deer in the = headlights look. I ask them to try an eather roll, pretty easy and = straight forward. I use about six different methods for mites, most may = not be legal.=20 You said you had bees near Modesto, funny thing, I have about 1000 there = myself. If you come out this way, please let me know and I can show you = what I've been writing about. Brokers: Randy Oliver mentioned a couple, one comes to mind, Mike Rosso. I beg = to differ with Randy on this topic. They mention a four frame minimum, = below that you are docked. What they don't tell you is that they say = they want strong colonies but they are not willing to pay for them. = Example, if I took a load of bees up to Orland, CA and they graded out = at 13 frames, I would not get paid for all 13, but if you didn't meet = the minimum, they sure find time to dock you there. This is not much = different than how it is run down South. =20 P.S. Randy Oliver came to my beekeeping Christmas Party this year, he = can tell you first hand how sharp my pencil is. =20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:57:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Most people on the list know what I think about organic honey. I can see a label which says this honey has been produced by use of organic methods. One certification trip to a farm to look around does not mean to me every drop of honey coming off the place can be certified organic honey. I live in a rural area. Rural areas are dumping ground for toxic waste in bags and many forms. They pulled around thirty power line leaking transformers from a lake about thirty miles from here. Bees get water from the lake. >many beekeepers have not recognized that the natural and organic food sections in most grocery stores including Wal-Mart and Target are rapidly expanding and offers numerous opportunities for beekeepers to get $5-$10 per pound for their honey. It's really a money thing isn't it with organic honey? Is your honey any better than mine? I know of two packers filling bottles saying Raw honey with the same honey they sell to grocery stores. Until the industry can police labels I say no to organic honey. Explain on your label you use no chemicals. Add a flyer around the neck. So far not one beekeeper has been able to prove honey sold as organic/raw is better than other honey sold in stores as far as health benefits says the FDA. Its all about money right? Until you come on BEE-L saying all other honey is somehow dangerous for the consumer then the thought of someone paying $5-10 for organic I find ridiculous. It's all about the money for you guys and not health. If I really thought it was a public danger to myself I would not eat my honey everyday and sell to my family & friends. has been tested many times and always comes up clean. I might pay $5-10 for a jar for yours if a testing certificate from a lab saying the jar had tested clean for chemicals. I don't want a certificate saying a lab checked one jar a year from your place. Prove to me your honey is better. Talk is cheap! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 19:23:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herve Abeille Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:36:00 -0500, Brian Fredericksen wrote: >Instead of serious discussion on topics like artisinal and organic >honey the ignorance of the market potential is displayed by poking fun >at small details that are apperently not understood. Hello The apparent lack of balance in the discussion is mainly because people like yourself have not chimed in. Your comments are certainly welcomed by me: I tried to find out how to produce organic honey in the NE USA and was told by the certifiers that it was impossible. They weren't asking for my input, either. But as far as the small details that aren't understood 1) It is no small matter to be told how to keep bees by someone who knows little and less than I do. Clipping queens' wings is harmless, and very helpful to the beekeeper. 2) I do not understand why these certifiers set such whimsical standards, and why they (do you?) object to wing clipping. Dr. C. C. Miller, one of the world's great beekeepers, clipped both wings on one side; A. I. Root recommended clipping one on each side because "it looks better" These people are my heroes and I have no reason (as yet) to doubt them Herve Abeille -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 19:03:47 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: RE; ALMONDS In-Reply-To: <001601c6327c$777493a0$83e0f7a5@hrgmy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "CN honey@jps.net" wrote:First of all Mike, are you kidding about keeping bees in sub-zero weather and then coming to Calif for the almonds ? Hello, is anyone home, 1980'S with no mites are gone. I thought that was the point I was making in my statement. You ain't gonna get any hive growth trying to feed bees syrup and pollen patties in below freezing weather. The bees aren't going to break the cluster to get at the food you have supplied them. Mike --------------------------------- What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 19:42:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: getting bees to almonds with brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike What I am trying to say is, the days are over when you can send bees = from a cold climate right into the almonds.In other words , get them the = hell out of the snow by mid Nov. Now that may not be convenient for = you, but if you play the almond circuit, it's your best bet. good luck with your spring, Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 21:06:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: <001c01c63283$661cb5e0$1abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison writes: Explain on your label you use no chemicals. Add a flyer around the neck. It's all about the money for you guys and not health. Reply: Actually, we do personally state this on our labels "Produced by organic methods without the usage of chemicals, drugs, essential oils and acids". I don't make flyers around the neck, but I do have printed literature available for handing out concerning our honey, methods, etc. As for all about the money and not health. I think that if we thought that, we'd have taken a different route a long time ago, instead of trying to feel our way through the necessary field management without the usage of all various treatments to get to where we are today, which is for a product that is indeed good for our health! Glad to hear Bob that you aren't afraid to eat your own honey like some. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 21:28:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification /II In-Reply-To: <43F35896.5050108@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dave: The problem with using outbreeding extensively, is that you can gain 'uniformity' at the expense of quality. Reply: Not really Dave, for you are selecting only 1-3 of the best of say 900+ for wanting to use for grafting after following performance for a full season. You just want to get more of it in one pass to the field.........for virgin drops. Then wait, observe and see what transpires. Then say another year or two, choose another few good ones. AFter all, with commercial beekeepers it is a lifelong following. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 01:38:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: almonds Hi Tim, Re: "I would take issue however with a couple of the adjectives used regarding Mid-west bees and their propensity to be judged as "shitty bees". " I in no way meant to impugn either midwestern bees nor beekeepers--from everything I've seen, you guys are both intelligent, and experts at what you do. And certainly don't deserve the blows you got this season. We Californians produce plenty of shitty bees ourselves due to our lack of summer pollen (we commonly go 6 months without a drop of rain). We have to combine down ourselves, and most locals that I know have gone in over the years without inspection. I'm small time, and am only guessing, but I guess that growers faced with paying $150 wanted to make sure they got their money's worth. I apologize if I sounded flippant in my posts, because I really feel for you guys, and think you got screwed big time. I completely understand about midwestern bees being bred for small winter clusters that build up later. When I've sold nucs to the midwest, I've made a point of stocking them with queens from midwestern, rather than Calif breeders. I've also seen great bees come out from east of the Rockies, and explode when they warm up here. We're all struggling, and I sure don't want to add to any animosity. I agree with you that the growers, brokers, and out-of-state beekeepers better learn to work with each other, or the growers will really be hurting for bees in a couple of years. Randy Oliver Calif -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 09:17:23 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: [BEE-L] Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Herb . Dr. C. C. Miller, one of the > world's great beekeepers, clipped both wings on one side; A. I. Root > recommended clipping one on each side because "it looks better" > > These people are my heroes and I have no reason (as yet) to doubt them Yes they are my beekeeping heroes too. But they were not certified organic producers. One aim of organic ruling is to allow the production animals to live more nataural way compared to normal production. In EU organic cows must be put out to pasture to eat grass from the fiels on summertime. Pig farmers can not cut the tails off the pigs. And beekeepers in organic production can not cut the wings of a queen so that she can not fly out with a swarm if she decides to do so. In a way I feel that the beekeepers that work without clipped queens are forced to look a bit more carefully after their bees not to loose so many swarms. Maybe they take therefoere better care in other aspects too. There is no reason to try figure out the rationale of all organic ruling because there is not. Now some of the rules seem to be based on feelings. It is like this because they are done in order to give the buyer a feeling that he or she is making a better choise when buying food. Most rules have some rationale behind them. Which one of us would rather buy honey from a hive terated liberally with antibiotics and synthetic mictisides if there is a choise of honey produces without these ? OK most of us are not willing o to pay much more for organic, but some people are, and therefore beekeepers should supply this market. If someone does not want to go with the rules, they can not produce organic, but they can try to lobby for a cahange in ruling. Ari Seppälä Finland Not an organic beekeeper, but maybe some day. Yes, most of my queens are clipped -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:14:55 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification /II In-Reply-To: <20060216052800.30163.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee You do not state how many of the 'virgin drops' you actually do, how many are there per year and how many of them are culled as not up to standard ? How many of these 'virgin drops' result in mated queens that take over the colony, as a percentage ? Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 08:06:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline ----- Original Message ----- From: Dee Lusby Date: Thursday, February 16, 2006 0:06 am Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. > Glad to hear > Bob that you aren't afraid to eat your own honey like some. I have never met someone who is afraid to eat his/her own honey. I think most folks that feel free to use pesticides in the manner in which they are labeled do so because they feel that it is reasonable and safe to do so, and therefore would not hesitate to eat their own honey. This kind of sentence smacks of an unfounded appeal to emotions, not something with a basis in fact. Much like what politicians do. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 09:22:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, Thanks for the compassion Randy! I have been digging for information on what happened. I believe some pieces are still missing. I want to get it right for the article. I don't want a whitewashed version. I am going to run a few scenarios by the list which is read by all parties involved. If you agree I have got it right please send me a quick email saying so. I will not use your name. If you think I still have not got it right as to what happened please email me and tell what part I have not got right in your opinion. Thanks in advance! >and am only guessing, but I guess that growers faced with paying $150 wanted to make sure they got their money's worth. Actually from what I have been told they were willing to pay for bees. They did not like having to pay double but cost of doing business. Then a broker approached the growers with a plan to screw beekeepers. The plan was to dangle $150 a hive pollination fee in front of their nose and draw bees from as far away as New York & Florida. Then when the hives arrive use a stacked deck grading system.designed by the same broker. Inspectors hired by the same broker. The idea was to force beekeepers into combining hives to get the fee. Old growth trees typically need three hives per acre. New growth use two hives per acre. If you take $150 and divide by three you come up with fifty. You take three hives beekeepers were expecting to get $150 each for and you have got $450 per acre almond pollination fee. Combine the same three hives into one unit and you have got the same three hives for $150 OR FIFTY DOLLARS A HIVE. Actually less than the $65 dollars a hive most beekeepers received across the board last season. The above IS what people are telling me! Are they all wrong? Brokers are saying NOT US! Growers are saying they were never told beekeepers would be crushed by the plan but only whipped into shape. California beekeepers like Randy & Keith I don't think even realize what happened but I hope to open their eyes. It is what it is! Lets not cover things up but get things out in the open about what happened. Help me get the story right. Set me straight! Did out of state beekeepers take the bait and fall for the broker plan? Was there ever a plan? Why would so many people say its so if its not? >I completely understand about midwestern bees being bred for small winter clusters that build up later. All brokers/growers know what Midwestern bees look like shipped in January. They have been buying those clusters for years. The growers we have done business with know what those clusters look like. Everyday while I was staying in Kerman, California the beekeepers would meet the growers at the local retaurant for breakfast. I have had weeks of converstation with almond growers. Some of the nicest people I ever met! They loaned us a shed, let us load our semi's in the driveway and tried to help in any way they could! If they had a hand in this it was because they did not understand the full impact of what was going to happen. They were duped also! > I've also seen great bees come out from east of the Rockies, and explode when they warm up here. You just described Midwestern bees. They start packing pollen as soon as the nets are pulled. We grade or bees into three grades with number one being the strongest. Bell Hill Honey only sent grade one on 8-10 frames this year. They were constantly fed the month prior due to the warmest January on record. Some of the best bees sent in January. ALL 2005 queens of Italian decent. All arrived alive in excellent shape. Yet the brokers inspectors said all were sub standard and need combining. 194 were rejected as not up to the four frame minimum. When checked two days ago on a 60+ degree day the number 2 & 3 hives left behind are solid in the top box covering 7 * frames and the cluster extends into the bottom box. Bell Hill is upset and wants to know what happened as do others. Can you help! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 08:03:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification /II In-Reply-To: <43F46CBF.7050409@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave: How many of these 'virgin drops' result in mated queens that take over the colony, as a percentage ? Reply: Virgin drops are normally good for about 85-90% take. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:01:43 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification /II In-Reply-To: <20060216160332.89155.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee > Reply: > Virgin drops are normally good for about 85-90% take. So what percentage of these 'takes' do not come up to scratch and are culled ?? Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:01:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herve Abeille Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification /II MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dave: How many of these 'virgin drops' result in mated queens that take over the colony, as a percentage ? Reply: Virgin drops are normally good for about 85-90% take. ME: Without marking or clipping the queens, you have no real way of determining the acceptance rate. Last summer we requeened with queen cells, and judging from the number of marked queens surviving, 85-90% is purely wishful thinking. Herve -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:41:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification /II In-Reply-To: <43F4AFF7.7050208@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave writes: So what percentage of these 'takes' do not come up to scratch and are culled ?? Reply: None really, as the virgins are normally dropped into the bottom 1/3 of colonies to change what they are doing hopefully for the better, as I am picky. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 19:07:32 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=E3o=20Campos?= Subject: Re: FW: African genetics In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092103312036@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rossy Castillo: > Hi I'm going to make you only two questios:how many hives do > you work with, and how much honey do you harvest in one year. If you want to know about AHB productivity, my case is not representative enough, as no single sample can be. But, if you're still curious, I can tell that my record is just under 50 kg of honey taken from a single hive in one season. But it was an unusually good crop, because my small farm is surrounded mostly by pasture for cattle and some native vegetation that's extremely undependable as a nectar source. Since I don't live from my bees, I can keep few hives and make a lot of tests with them. Well, if it were not for my neverending tests, maybe I would be harvesting more... :) Anyway, some people report larger harvestings, in a much more consistent frequency, near some eucalyptus forests, just to mention a classical example in the Southern Brazil. To be fair, the eurofans I mentioned in another post claim the same. Joăo Campos _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 14:29:58 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=E3o=20Campos?= Subject: Re: African genetics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison said: > You are not a commercial beekeeper? (...) I only ask as the people I am talking to are. No, I'm not a commercial beekeeper. Nor have I talked to you in private. So it seems that I'm irremediably below your minimaly acceptable standard of credibility. Unfortunately, I can do nothing about that. > I had quite a few emails from my fans saying my post was right on. Would you be kind enough to be a little more precise about that? Have you got e-mails saying that you are right about Brazilian beekeepers having a "strict schedule of requeening with European queens"? And that "commercial beekeepers in Brazil have been flooding the area with European queens now for 49 years on a regular basis"? Because that's the only portion of you post I contested. Not that I agree 100% with all the rest, but the message you quoted has nothing to do with what I was saying. BTW, those complaints can be new for you, but they have been around here for some time. Due to my skeptical nature, I don't usually judge things after having heard only one side, but maybe I could offer another look on that matter, if you or your lurker fan wanted. In another topic, of course. Back on distribution of European queens: I find it hard to believe that you got this information from any Brazilian beekeeper. Not even from one who could want to fool you, know why? "Europeanists" in Brazil are, at this very moment, fighting hard and loud to try changing the mind of the "africanists". They offer a mostly simplistic solution - requeening with open mated European queens and destroying every feral AHB colony. They quote writings from 30 or 40 years ago, and have a religious faith on all of that. Maybe, being at their side, you could tell them one or two little things, because they accept no ponderings from any AHB keeper. They have no results to show but a couple of supposedly well succeeded beekeepers over a couple of seasons or so. None of them would tell you what you have said here, because that's exactly the opposite they complaint about - Brazil's full africanization. In the other side, most africanists see European bees mainly as a source of harsh diseases, like AFB which has never been detected in Brazil (despite its broad ocurrence in Argentina). Moreover, many others fear that the introduced European bees will prompt the use of antibiotics and acaricides, which could eventually contaminate the exported honey and cause an international ban, just like the one on Argentina's and China's two/three years ago. If any africanist knew something about a big operation of europeanization in course, you can be sure that he/she wouldn't tell you in private, but would immediately blow the whistle everywhere instead. So, unless you prove that I'm wrong, I can only imagine that you inferred this situation from quick readings and light talkings. Maybe the main source of mistake here is the reeuropeanization (wow! almost a German word...) program, led by Kerr and others in the late 60's/early 70's. Those guys imported some mated Starline/Italian queens from US, then produced and distributed some 23,000 queens. The number varies according with who is telling the story, but the range is usually 20-25 thousand. Only recently I read about 30,000 in an article from Malcolm Sanford in ABJ (2004), but my copy was translated, so I'm not sure it was a translation mistake, or someone just told Malcolm the wrong number. Mark Winston and Dewey Caron use 23,000 in their excellent books on aficanization. Anyway, these differences are totally irrelevant, IMHO. Kerr et al. claim the program helped a lot. I just can't be so sure. First, Brazil is a huge country - only 10% smaller than US. What do you think about solving the problem of AHB aggression in US by distributing a proportional number of Italian queens? Second, a small detail not many people pay attention to: all the queens were virgin. Can you imagine what's the probability of success in introducing a *virgin*, *italian* queen in a africanized colony? Done by a mostly unskilled and annoyed beekeeper? What about implementing such a program in US nowadays? Do you think it would make any difference? Do you still think it can really have helped to tame AHB in Brazil? > One of the people I have been talking to *is* the queen breeder in > Argentina shipping in the Italian queens. Argentina's situation is completely different from Brazil's. You can't extrapolate. >Barry Seargant of South Africa saw that the method Joao describes is as primitive as it gets... It's kind of ironic that you bring Barry Sergeant to that discussion, because he's a harsh critic of some ideas you defend (see http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/sergeant.htm), not of mine, as you'll see below. > I am happy the primitive methods you are using are working for you but there are better ways That's a good example of how a quick read can lead you to a total misunderstanding (or my communication skills are indeed far worse than you have kindly qualified). I was talking about my country, so I told you what I observe, what I see happening and what I learn from many beekeepers from most regions. It's not to say that I agree with those "primitive" practices, au contraire. You surely don't know that I too like very much to help beginners. Besides participating as an "answerer" in some discussion groups for several years, I wrote and maintain a large faq on beekeeping (some 100 pages, printed) available for anyone who can read in Portuguese (http://www.apicultura.com.br/apifaq/). If the hit counter is right, and the fellows that send me messages are not simply being utterly kind, I may think that I have objectively been helping a lot of people. It's a pity you can't read Portuguese to check exactly how primitive the methods I use and recommend are (no, wait, forget it. I'm not a commercial :). In fact, I have tried hard to make people turn to a more rational beekeeping. Obviously, it doesn't include smuggling of European bees and acaricides. But all the good practices everyone here knows, unfortunately, are not widely adopted in Brazil, so I try to do my (voluntary) part, and always want to learn new and better ways. > I respect you Joao hope we can agree to disagree. No problem, of course. I've been doing that in the last 19 years (about beekeeping). And I don't see any respectful disagreement as an insult or anything like that. Provided we keep fighting only with ideas and not with some some cheap rhetorical tricks, I'll be always comfortable. I hope you will too. Best Regards. Joăo Campos _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:25:35 -0600 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: Almond Pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Randy, Apoligies accepted. Like I said I agreed with the content of your post and we all need to as you said, work together in the future to make sure beekeepers across the country who can come to California are prepared and are up to meeting the demands of the growers in the future. We really have to find a way to take care of them or things will not be good for either the almond or beekeeping industry. I think Bob Harrison's recent post as to the motivations for this recent "train wreck" are right on. The growers and a couple of brokers, maybe one, simply said if youre going to price us a Cadillac, it better drive and smell like one and they well knew we wouldn't really be delivering anything resembling such. Problem is I don't know anyone personally that got $ 150.00. Heard rumors that early contracts were signed at that level but things were being renegotiated downward. Most beekeepers are good people and we aren't out to take advantage of anyone, but hey, we have to make this financially viable or it just don't work and that's the bottom line. Thanks again, Tim Tucker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:33:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: <001c01c63283$661cb5e0$1abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 15-Feb-06, at 5:57 PM, Bob Harrison wrote: > So far not one beekeeper has been able to prove honey sold as > organic/raw is > better than other honey sold in stores as far as health benefits > says the > FDA. > Hi Bob & all Preliminary results from a study of the antibiotic properties of various samples of Ontario honey shows that while honey from some floral sources are better than others, samples of heated honey were not as good as unheated samples. This study is financed , in part, by the Ontario Beekeepers Association. While my source is well connected, and I know the researcher, my talk, as Bob says, is cheap. Hopefully the final report will be available in the near future. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:51:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herve Abeille Subject: Re: African genetics >One reason you see beekeepers in Brazil able to handle bees with AHB >genetics is because most have a strict schedule of requeening with European >queens. I must admit I was very surprised when I read this. I thought that Africanization was a done deal in most of tropical America, including Mexico. These bees require very little upkeep, according to Dave De Jong. He stated twenty years ago in the ABJ that most commercial beekeepers preferred them. Beekeepers faced the challenge of working with the new bees. After an initial period of adaptation to the very different behavior and biology of the Africanized bees, the country started to produce large quantities of honey again and may take its place as one of the largest honey producers in the world within the next few years. Today most apiculturists are satisfied with their conditions and actually prefer Africanized bees because it is easy to get bees and because they are good producers. Indeed, the large number of people now taking up beekeeping, including many young men and women, attests to the manageability of these bees. Scientists are no longer concerned with the strong defensive behavior of the bees. In fact, today most commercial beekeepers in Brazil prefer to work with Africanized bees. The defensive behavior of these bees has decreased and beekeepers slowly realized they could exploit the high capacity for adaptation, reproduction and productivity of the Africanized bees. Herve -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:29:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification /II In-Reply-To: <5406fd350602161001w529b85fck742a0a92f1a59330@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Herve writes: Without marking or clipping the queens, you have no real way of determining the acceptance rate. Reply: No offense Herve, but when you drop in virgins to hives marked to change over, you see a defininte color change in the queens. Herve continiues: Last summer we requeened with queen cells, and judging from the number of marked queens surviving, 85-90% is purely wishful thinking. Reply: Sorry you had that problem. But 85-90% take is normal with virgin queen drops done right in an "organic environment", using 3dram bottles. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:50:38 -0800 Reply-To: paradisehoneyfarms@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "paradisehoneyfarms@earthlink.net" Subject: Re: almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Bob, Thanks for all the input. Sorry I did not get back to you sooner. My mom in the hospital the day after working 6 nights to get the bees moved, mother in law in Nebraska also in the hospital for open heart surgery, fly back there, then daughter in Idaho had twins 8 weeks early, so busy last 2 weeks. We placed our at 135.00, when down 5.00. Average 9 plus in story and half. We do not used double deeps I can not lift them. I spoke with Joe Trayner regarding the strength of the bees. Joe knows me very well. In the Ag Alert 2/6/06 was a ad for a Independent Bee Inspection Company. I have a copy of the ad. I was going to call and just talk to them, but did not have the time. Did you speak with them also?. I can not wait to read your article. Like Randy and others said, we pollen pattie them, feed good syrups and work our you knows off to have a strong hive for pollination. We also have out of state friends who also do the same. They move bee into the state mid Oct. If a broker, or a almond grower was the cause of this, I hope his name in given. Also bad bee keepers names sure be given. I do know a few around here that in my option should not be called bee keepers. Thanks again for all your help in this. Susan -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:50:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: Almond Pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To anybody who wants to listen, So far what I read from Bob H. is not accurate.All I hear is whining. = Almond growers in recent years couldn't afford dormant spray. Now soft = shell is around $2.30 a pound, yes it's dropped over one dollar a pound = in the last two weeks. But that is not my point. Bees now will shed up = to 50% due to the mites. So just because you have a 9 frame cluster DOES = NOT MEAN YOU WILL HAVE IT IN THE FIELD AFTER 10 DAYS OF FLIGHT DUE TO = SCARRING. I was down today canning bees , I stopped to look at some bees in other = fields, three frames, I went to the next field, those shake bees lucky = if they were four, all from out of state. I've got a friend right now = that is sitting on two thousand hives .He lives twenty miles from me or = about sixty from where he used to set them in the almonds, but out-of = staters undercut him on price by thirty dollars. Mike and I looked at = those bees, 4-6 frames, Mike's bees are 9-10 ( Mike listens to me and = feeds pollen all winter). I've not heard one OUT-OF-STATER who has fed = pollen all winter, but I do hear the whining. P.S my Family grows Almonds Fourth Generation. Keith Jarrett California Natural -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:37:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: almonds Hi All, I'm not sure why so few Calif beekeepers are discussing the situation on this forum. I just got back from checking the grading of my colonies, and the average was graded by my broker right where I estimated it to be, as it is every year. I don't understand all the questioning of grading of the midwest bees, but this seems to be a South Valley problem, and I'm in North Valley. I suggest that if there is a question about fair grading, that the beekeeper hire an independent grader. There are skilled grading crews out there, or he could hire the county ag inspector to get an independent, written grade. If you are talking about losing thousands of dollars, get a second opinion! Either you've got the bees in the box, or you don't. Shouldn't be any question. Apparently, there are questions as far as the expectation of colony strength by the growers or brokers--I suggest you guys get this clarified in writing before you load up next year. I feel really sorry for the disasters faced by you hard-working midwesterners. However, I'm also seeing the locals suffer. Today there was a yard of midwestern singles, with the lids screwed on, containing only frames of new foundation, a nearly empty feeder, three combs of shook bees, no stores, and facing subfreezing nights and weather too cold for flight. That grower is not going to get his money's worth! Nearby were several truckloads of about 10-frame-strong local bees unplaced because the beekeeper couldn't find a grower wanting them. The attitude of many growers is that they rented all the bees (read that, "boxes") they needed at a cheap rate. Of course, they got what they paid for, or less. The poor local guy who busted his butt all year to have strong bees will make nothing, because he was undercut by an out of stater. The bottom line is everyone loses--the grower, the local beekeeper, and the out-of-stater. The almond growers are going to need out of state bees in the upcoming years, and the out of staters are only going to come if it is financially worthwhile, and without a bunch of surprises. They sure aren't going to make money hauling out three colonies, and only getting paid for one! Or gambling that they are going to make it through the bug station. I certainly don't have all the answers, but I hope my posts have helped to clarify some of the issues. Randy Oliver California -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:13:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I’ve been drawn into this discussion, in particular, by the exchange between Brian and Bob. Although my production methods are probably in many respects in the same vein as Brian’s, I can much sooner sympathize with Bob’s argument. I think there’s definitely something to Bob’s assertion that “it’s all about the money,” but I wonder what you do and what you don’t mean by that, Bob. I don’t suppose you expect “organic” wannabes (myself included) to ignore the bottom line, to make decisions for their beekeeping businesses irrespective of profit. It seems the only reasonable charge to uncover in that statement is that selling the “organic” angle is a way to get more money without delivering any more real value, which is to say however profitable it might be, you couldn’t pursue that course in good conscience. I think an easy “field test” for this theory is to ask if the producer selling the “organic” sales pitch would buy his own honey? If he were forced to retire and sold his bees to someone that ran his operation exactly as he did, would he buy the same honey at the same price? Does he, in fact, sell his own honey at his regular prices to his friends? Would he be glad to know that his widowed mother on a limited budget bought honey just like his from a producer local to her? If the answers to these questions aren’t yes, then the “organic” premium is essentially unjust exploitation, isn’t it? Granted, we’re talking about places like America, where exploiting each other’s ignorance/paranoia/elitism/pride/lust/insecurities/vanity/addictions/vulnera bility, etc. is a way of life, but if that’s what “organic” is about then it’s hardly a noble calling, and the issue with beekeepers is not “ignorance of the market potential.” I think it’s also worth asking whom Brian is selling his honey to. Are other farmers buying your honey? If farmers aren’t buying your honey, why aren’t they? Is your honey basically going to suburbanites? If that’s the case, what quality do suburbanites possess that farmers lack? If your own neighbors, the ones that make a living getting their hands dirty and their backs sore, are willing to pay your “organic” premium, then you’ve got a noteworthy marketing plan. So why do various organic standards have rules against clipping wings? I agree with Herve that that particular provision is rather absurd, but I nonetheless think that that kind of thing is necessary to any meaningful definition of organic. Can we really detach organics from a way of farming? I suppose “organic” could merely signify food that wasn’t exposed to any risk at all of man-made contamination. But if it’s clear anywhere, it’s clear in beekeeping that this definition is feebly shallow. My cattle breathe the air from your exhaust pipe. And my tomatoes are watered by your acid rain. And my bees visit land and crops and roadsides and watersheds that have seen it all. So, first of all, there is no food free of any risk of man-made contamination, especially not by the time any man has had his hands in its production, which makes the “risk-free” standard a ridiculous standard. What I consider the more important failing of the “risk-free” standard, though, is its abandonment of the places we live. If organic agriculture is worth anything anywhere, shouldn’t it matter in the places we live? And if it matters in the places we live, it matters in the places where we also, incidentally, grow GMO crops and spray fungicides and dispose of leaky power line transformers, etc., etc. What’s the use of an organic standard that can’t serve and direct us where we’re at? Show me an organic standard that doesn’t care for the kinds of places where I live, and I’ll show you an organic standard that I don’t care about. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 21:40:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: African genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joao & All, I only ask your level of beekeeping. I can't count the number of presentations I have been in in which the presenter asks the level of the beekeepers in the meeting. Gives me an idea of how to respond. The other beekeeper which responded is a large commercial beekeeper from South America. He also inquired about your level of beekeeping. Nothing personal by any means by both of us. >Would you be kind enough to be a little more precise about that? I said I believed in my post I was correct in my explanation of the way AHB genetics works. I had four private emails saying I was correct. Trust me Joao the list looks for something in my posts they can find fault with. A couple years ago I posted incorrect information which was given to me and 20 posts popped up saying "hey wait a minute". If I get it wrong I want corrected! I always welcome the opposite opinion! Discussion is the way we learn. >Back on distribution of European queens: I find it hard to believe that you got this information from any Brazilian beekeeper. Are you saying the Europeanists as you call them do not use EU queens as part of their regular program. I am having a hard time following your train of thought. Perhaps its the language barrier? > "Europeanists" in Brazil are, at this very moment, fighting hard and loud to try changing the mind of the "africanists". I don't want to get in the middle of this as I can see you are convinced of your ideals but research & science are on the side of the Europeanists. Dr. Kerr is considered one of the worlds foremost bee genetisicts and as you say he is in the corner of the Europeanists. >They offer a mostly simplistic solution - requeening with open mated European queens and destroying every feral AHB colony. I don't know what you mean by open mated unless you are refering to the virgins below and if so let me explain to you why the virgins. perhaps no one has ever taken the time. I will. Destroying feral AHB removes the drone source. The AHB drones are a big part of the problem > Maybe, being at their side, you could tell them one or two little things, because they accept no ponderings from any AHB keeper. Because of the release in 57 a huge amount of research and research dollars have been devoted to the study of AHB. We know quite a bit. We know what works and what doesn't. You quote Caron & Winston which in my opinion is primative information. Interesting reading but lacked the science needed to understand the problem. A first read for those interested. >others fear that the introduced European bees will prompt the use of antibiotics and acaricides, which could eventually contaminate the exported honey and cause an international ban, just like the one on Argentina's and China's two/three years ago. Like I said tens of thousands of European queens have been imported and released in Brazil over the last 49 years wether you want to believe or not. As for the antibiotics found in China honey (chloramphenical) and Agentena (nitrofurons). We have never figured out what they were used to control. Our researchers felt ignorance was the reason they were used to try and control a beekeeping problem. Our researchers said neither would control AFB or EFB. >So, unless you prove that I'm wrong, I can only imagine that you inferred this situation from quick readings and light talkings. I am no expert on AHB but when I talk to experts like Alfredo Platinetty they never go over my head in converstation. I have got every article that's ever been published on AHB since 57 in my files. Both books you talk about. > What do you think about solving the problem of AHB aggression in US by distributing a proportional number of Italian queens? Kill the AHB feral colonies and keep EU queens in hives is the solution in the U.S. for now. Has worked in Texas for commercial beekeepers. We believe will work in Florida (at least at the start) Joao let me help you here. Let me help you understand. I always learned more by listening than I ever did by talking. >Second, a small detail not many people pay attention to: all the queens were virgin. Can you imagine what's the probability of success in introducing a *virgin*, *italian* queen in a africanized colony? The reason for the virgin queen is hives do not see a virgin queen as a threat. Only the AHB queen might try to kill the virgin but even then most likely she would leave alone. Mated queens are harder to introduce than virgins. When the virgin flys out and returns with the mating sign the bees most likely will think she is a supercedure queen and acept her. research in Mexico shows using virgins to requeen AHb works. She will have most likely open mated with an AHb drone BUT the drones she raises WILL BEE European and not AHb since the drone has no father. The second and maybe as important point is that she will be less inclined to swarm. Her workers will be 50% Africanized which might or might not reduce aggressive behavior. The mating could increase honey production by creating a hybrid bee with a 30% increase of what we call hybrid vigor. > Do you still think it can really have helped to tame AHB in Brazil? Without a doubt. The constant swarming is the problem. Reduce the amount of AHB drones in the area and you reduce the level of AHb in the area. In Florida the AHB expert has said their studies have seen some feral swarms swarming up to 16 times in a season. In Mexico & Texas 8 is max. In South Africa with pure scutellata 16 is not unusual. Alfredo said it seems the swarming gentics is very strong in the AHB in South Florida. A problem which makes stopping the spread very difficult. Over twenty years ago the largest beekeeper in the world at the time said to me "You can't believe everything you read in beekeeping books". As your knowledge level in beekeeping rises you begin to understand the wisdom of his words. Same with many internet web sites. BEE-L is still in my opinion the top beekeeping talk list. You will in my opinion get the straight information on a subject on BEE-L. The archives contain priceless information from some of the top minds in the beekeeping world. I enjoy your posts Joao! Hope I have helped by explaining a few areas you may not be clear on. Most of beekeeping is not black or white but gray. I always keep an open mind. Sincerely, Bob Harrison "What we do not know is so vast it makes what we do know seem absurd" Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:06:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herve Abeille Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification /II >No offense Herve, but when you drop in virgins to hives >marked to change over, you see a defininte color change in >the queens. Hello, Like I said, if you requeen with cells or virgins, and the old queen is not marked, you have no way of knowing what happened there. Most experienced beekeepers can tell the difference between an old queen and a new one, but I can think of several scenarios where a new queen would be present and it wouldn't be the one you plunked in a few weeks previously. The most obvious is if the colony had just superseded, so they already have a brand new queen. Another is one of those african swarms has just come in and wiped out the your queens. Tom Seeley was asked what he thought of requeening by releasing virgins into the hive, and he said he thought that would be a waste of time since it seldom works. In my opinion, beekeeping should involve proven techniques that work. Stock maintenance and improvement as described by the beekeeping greats such as Amos Root, Brother Adam, Sue Cobey, Marla SPivak, and all, requires introducing good queens and making sure they get accepted. Marking is about the only way to be sure the queen you wanted is the queen you have. Herve Abeille -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:58:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: African genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This message was originally submitted by busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Harrison [mailto:busybeeacres@discoverynet.com] > Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:02 AM > To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > Subject: Re: [BEE-L] African genetics > > > Hello Herve, > I don't buy what you are selling! As for De Jong, Caron or > Winston. I would love to see any one of them go to Brazil and > keep a yard of around 400 hives on 8-10 frame of bees year > around and move five to ten times a year then come back and > say the AHb is what the U.S. beekeeper needs. Sure they peek > in hives on a nice day and report to us only the positive > information or keep weak nucs like Dr. Taylor. I am very > aware of the way those bees are kept on permanent locations > in Brazil. Very carefully with a lot of smoke and body armor. > Walk away splits. Unknown genetics so beekeeper beware. > Beekeepers in Brazil have adjusted to working AHB. AHb has > not been tamed. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 09:00:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: African genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello to All, On Wed, 15 Feb 2006, Joăo Campos of Porto Alegre, Brazil wrote in response to Bob Harrison’s earlier post which stated, “One reason you see beekeepers in Brazil able to handle bees with AHB genetics is because most have a strict schedule of requeening with European queens” Mr. Campos responded, “...it's absolutely not true. First, the absolute majority of beekeepers in Brazil simply *do not requeen*. They catch new swarms with bait hives ... make splits at the end of the season and let the queenless hives produce their own queens.” My response: Dr. Tom Rinderer who has spent about 15 years working with Africanized honey bees, A. m. scutellata, spoke in Asheville, North Carolina this past Monday advised that the practice of scheduled requeening with European stock is imperative to the handling of honeybees in South and Central America and that the practice of requeening in these countries with gentle European stock is widely accepted and desirable. In my opinion those beekeepers in any land who make splits at the end of the season and let the queenless hives produce their own queens are practicing a Russian roulette style of beekeeping. Requeening with superior queens having highly desirable traits has long been recognized as not only more profitable and enjoyable beekeeping, it is far superior to the primitive practice of being broodless for with as long as 27 days without assurance that a mated queen that was raised by the queenless colony will return to begin laying. Even those beekeepers who have just a few colonies can graft from their most desirable hives by using the Smith or Alley methods to raise their own queens. Mr. Campos continues, “Brazilian breeders (and some commercial beekeepers as well) have worked hard to select better africanized bees, because of the increasing interest in green propolis in Asia. Some have thought of importing Caucasian bees, because of their great propolis use, but with the success in this particular AHB selection, the idea soon faded out.” My comments: The production of Brazilian propolis is a rapidly growing industry due to the common practice in Asia of purchasing Brazilian propolis, which has long been recognized for its medicinal properties and now there is great talk about its use for fighting different types of cancer. It is my understanding that the Scutellata is not a very productive propolis gatherer due to its very nature of being a semitropical subspecies of A. mellifera and its tendency to abscond. I certainly would want to hear more about “this particular AHB selection”. Propolis collection especially in Brazil may just become a steady and desirable profit producing operation for the beekeeper. There are many undiscovered types of propolis each with its own unique and varying medicinal properties. The bee pastures of the World may just contain many new and magical formulations of propolis that just may provide income for many in Third World countries. Just as there are many medicinal plants there must be many medicinal types of propolis. It opens a whole new era of discovery. Cheers, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm 330 Irvin Street Reidsville, NC 27320 Tel: 336 342 4490 http://www.mybeebusiness.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 14:02:41 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification /II In-Reply-To: <20060216214127.43962.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all No doubt Dee will correct me if I'm wrong, but I am trying to quantify and reconcile some of Dee's statements. Dee claims 85% - 90% acceptance of dropped virgins, providing that... "virgin queen drops done right in an "organic environment", using 3dram bottles." [2/17/06 1:29 AM] This is done in the worst third of her colonies, as she has 900 then we are talking about 300 virgins introduced into the breeding pool, these have been raised from between 1 and 3 colonies [post of 2/16/06 5:28 AM} However, identification of 'take' is by a "definite color change in the queens" [2/17/06 1:29 AM]. From reading various messages it would seem that none of these is numbered or clipped, or even marked with paint. After the virgins have been introduced, she says... "Then wait, observe and see what transpires." [2/16/06 5:28 AM] Yet none of these introduced virgins are then culled for poor performance. [2/16/06 9:41 PM] Herve has pointed out that... Without marking or clipping the queens, you have no real way of determining the acceptance rate. [2/16/06 6:01 PM] Without numbers or paint markings I am also unable to accept that anything like 85% are accepted and go on to head the colony, I would expect a lower initial take, as well as another portion (20% to 30%) being superseded quickly, I'm afraid human recognition of queens or, colour of such queens, does not amount to any form of proof or confidence in such numbers. But the real crunch comes when there is no culling of bad or unsuitable behaviour or performance, so all of the rubbish element (that happens in any queen rearing system) is allowed to dilute the pool of 'good' and worse still produce drones of poor quality to further dilute the future generations. In a system where records do not appear to be kept, how can you assess performance or quality ? Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 09:02:34 -0600 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: Almond Pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For Keith, I really enjoyed your post the other day and just haven't had time to respond, till now. It sounds like you do have the program worked out for yourself and those beekeepers like you in the area. I will, if you email me personally your phone number give you a call as I would like to see your operation and was wondering if I might get a ride in your hummer. Anyone who is grossing $ 285.00 per hive in my books has to be King of the Hill. I might be interested in doing an article on you but I am serious about getting to know you and seeing your program. I tried to email you but CNhoney@jps.net came back as undeliverable. Do I have something wrong there? Anyway, this will be my last post regarding almonds as I think it's been pretty well covered and we know where to go for next year and what needs to be done. There's alot of good info here on Bee-L and I'm learning alot on the African Genetics right now just listening. In regard to your last post. If you think Bob has it all wrong, like he says, just let him know and show him the facts and there's nobody I know who will turn around faster than Bob. He wants to write the story right and like you said, there's been very little response from California beekpeers and none from brokers, so they are not helping "the truth come foreward". You also said on your inspections that there are out of state bees placed with minimal clusters while CA bees are sitting with no place to go at 9 - 10 frames. This is exactly what the problem is, which is a lack of continuity in the entire process and as a result the system is lacking in fairness to both the beekeepers (in state and out) and to the growers as well. If I was a grower, I'd be doing just what they are seem to have done this year, which is demand quality. I can understand and fully appreciate that. We even made combinations that reduced our number by a full third before going and left behind many bees that yesterday were 5, 6, and 7 framers now! There's no doubt the trip is hard on the bees but our point is 1. There was no notification coming from the Almond growers to my knowledge that everyone was going to be held accountable to a certain level of grading prior to the normal army of trucks arriving from the midwest in the past several weeks. 2. No standardized format for a grading system was made available to anyone I know in a half a dozen states that I have talked to. 3. And all appearances of "whining" aside, the remedies upon arrival were so painful that had we known what was going to happen, tens of thousands of out of state bees would never have made the trip! And lastly, had the information been up front and timely, all of your friends in California would have their 9 - 10 framers placed and pollination prices this year might have hit last minute levels of $ 175.00. I will state for those I know that even at that price, I could not have made the program work for our operation, knowing that I would have to take another one third reduction upon arrival. I am grossing less than $ 45.00per production unit, considering both reductions in numbers pre and post-shipment. Take off $ 10.00 each way for trucking and then placement fees and plane tickets, rental vehicles and meals and everything else and you tell me how I can sharpen my pencil to draw a profit picture from that, considering future mgmt. costs and damage to the bees that did make the trip. If they were all still sitting here, I'd have my original numbers and be looking forward to a good honey crop this year to pay the bills. As I said in my first posting on this service: " If these are the standards, fine, but we will all have to be wintering in either Texas or California and doing exactly what you describe. We know what the answers are to raising bees in Nov.-Feb. and we don't have that part of the equation anywhere here in the Mid-west. When I have a 10 frame Italian hive here that arrives in the almonds on Feb. 10th with 3 - 6 frames of brood, it is an anomaly. These units exist but they total around 10 -15 % of total units. As I said, maybe breeding from this stock for producing is the answer but we may be cutting our throat in other areas. Your key statement in all of this is that you don't worry about honey production. That's great if everyone could do that and then just focus on raising bees and treating for mites all year. NO PROBLEMO! We all know that things will change this year and we are spending time here postulating and hypothesizing only because we hope to affect the change positively. I'll bend to a situation once where I get kicked in the gentles, but it ain't gonna happen again! Any way, enjoyed your posts and I will look forward to getting with you one day soon and I am sure that we will enjoy each others company. As I said before, I and I'm sure most of us here in the Mid-west agree with what you have said for the most part. We're not all characters like Ron White and Jeff Foxworthy discribe from the middle of the country. We've survived the last decade and the idiots left the dance hours ago. Thanks again for listening. Tim Tucker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 10:49:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: <170DFD0B-CA29-4DA7-884E-238668F5152E@interlog.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit bob darrell wrote: > Preliminary results from a study of the antibiotic properties of > various samples of Ontario honey shows that while honey from some > floral sources are better than others, samples of heated honey were > not as good as unheated samples. You could have saved the money and bought "The Hive and the Honey Bee" which explains the effect of heat on the enzymes in honey. Plus, it is not heat, it is temperature and duration of that temperature. Keep honey below about 122F and the enzymes will survive. Also, the antibacterial qualities of honey are not restricted to enzymes. The fact that is is a super-saturated sugar solution makes it anti-bacterial. Even "raw" honey will degrade in time, just not as quickly. HMF concentrations are the key to if it is good or "bad". Europe has fairly stringent standards on HMF limits. I do not see any in the US organic standards. So, if you keep organic honey on the shelf of a roadside stand in the sun, it will quickly be no better than the cheapest honey in a supermarket and probably worse. But it will still have the label even though it is poisonous to bees and would never make it into Europe. But it is still organic and people will feel good spending money for bad honey. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:59:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jose Antonio, Thanks so much for asking, you are the first. The mix is ( 50 pounds brewers yeast, 7-8 gals syrup, 1.5 gals bee = pollen). The mixer is a Kushlan 150 motor mixer, Leland 200 meat mixer. = I use a Kusland 150 model. You can order them at (home depot) some East = coast stores have them in stock, thousand dollars or so. A batch will do = about 25 hives and will weigh about 145 pounds. A two man crew can feed = about two hundred hives a day or about 1200 pounds of product. I use = tubs I bought at Wal Mart , 6 dollars a piece. I run a load of mix , = slide the tub underneath and pull the pin (use cooking oil to coat the = tub first). When I get to the bee yard, I use a three feet by three feet = plywood, flip the tub on to it .One guy handles the mix the other = handles the bees. It's a sticky mess if you try to do both. Two keepers = work the best. The keeper will crack the supers apart and smoke the hell = out of them (I use burlap soaked in oil ), so when we apply the patty (6 = pounds, about the size of a gallon milk jug ) the bees and queen don't = get crushed. Also bring water and some dry brewers with you. Its kind = of like making biskets on a larger scale.Try to use all the mix up that = day as it will be harder the day after. I don't use last names but I'm sure Pat wont mind the plug. Pat Heitkam sells brewers yeast, he can be found in the ABJ. ( Pat, good = friend of mine and the industry ) Glorybee Foods sells bee feed pollen. Syrup is 11.5 pounds per gallon, DO NOT ADD WATER. The first rounds start about October 20, I spend the first part of the = fall getting mite levels as low as I can, it would be nice to start in = September but I don't have the time (other job ). Once you get the first = round on, make sure to keep your dates, you do not want the queen to = stop and start, I.e. run out. The first round is consumed a little = faster as the urethral glands are dry (royal jelly gland) but once the = glands are full its off to the races. Fifty, forty degrees even mid = thirty keeps pushing them. Do not put patty on top (lid) as it won't = work and do not let them get wet. Pain in the ass in the middle of = winter, have been run out of the bee yards by rain many times. Its nice to hear somebody wanting to improve their hives instead of = whining about them. It's time to flip over the broken record even if its = a couple generations old. Speaking of generations, an old group called = JOURNEY album is out called generations. I like the old stuff better = like, DON'T STOP BELIEVING. Don't give up, those of you that have had a = bad almond year.Things will get better if you keep trying. I've shaked a lot of bees lately, I have given most beekeepers a year = to pay me back, after the almonds following year. (Funny thing, these = beekeepers, I haven't been stiffed once:) . This pollen feeding is hard work but the rewards are worth it. Twelve = frames in the almonds speaks for itself. Keith Jarrett=20 California Natural's -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:12:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello to All, Like Bob Harrison I too have been searching for truly what’s happening in the almond orchards of California. I have discovered several facts some obvious some hidden between the lines. There is one thing that perhaps I can help the readers of this List and that is if your bees are inspected by a County Inspector there must be a detailed record of the inspection on file in the County Commissioner’s office. Also County Inspectors DO NOT do anything other than inspect hives as asked. County Inspectors WILL NOT combine nor manipulate hives. County Inspectors must identify themselves as same. Any beekeeper in the groves has the right to dispute a private inspector’s assessment and request an inspection by a County Inspector. Furthermore an inspection by any private inspector must also be signed and accountable; otherwise you are being hoodwinked. Cheers, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm 330 Irvin Street Reidsville, NC 27320 Tel: 336 342 4490 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:37:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The original Organic Standards for beekeeping came from Maine and I was an interested observer. The people that developed them were marginal beekeepers more interested in moral purity than practicality. We (beekeepers who had been at it a while, including Tony Jadczak) submitted comments on their standards and were disregarded. We figured they were so out in left field that they would never be approved. I am amazed to see the same foolish standards still being promoted by the organic crowd. I have no problem with organic anything, but the standards for honey just lend themselves to abuse because they are nearly impossible to meet. In fact, most who call themselves "organic beekeepers" are only beekeepers who do not use Apistan or Cumaphose (but so use stuff I would not allow in my house) and have no idea what the actual standards are and how far they are from being organic. If you look at standards for almost all other aspects of organic produce and livestock, they at least meet a level of rationality and common sense. When you have a cow or horse and want to raise it organically, you also do not want to be foolish and remove tried and true commercial chemicals and treatments that will protect that investment, even if they are not organic. So the standards accommodate reality. The same with crops. The only difference here is organic chemicals (that I do not use since they are more harmful to the environment than more benign "commercial pesticides) are fine if they are made from flowers and other naturally produced toxins. However, the insecticide is processed by chemical companies (like Ortho) and boxed in concentrated form, a far cry from the pretty daisy in the field. In fact, inhale enough of that daisy powder and you will be pushing up daisys. But they will be organic. If you have a set of standards that are nearly impossible to meet, you will get cheating. I have seen it first hand: honey labeled organic while I know the beekeeper uses much more toxic treatments than I do, including Cumaphose which I never will use. How can he do such a dastardly thing? Set up an organic bee yard that meets the standards but produces little honey and take the other honey from your other yards and bottle it up. All the organic people care about is that one yard. So what if three hives produce 10,000 pounds of honey. Just one more reason to go organic. Your bees will be so healthy they can out produce those bad "chemical bees". But if you test the honey it will be obvious that it is not organic! Right? Tests of "organic" and non-organic honey have shown no differences at all, including no traces of pesticides. So you can cheat and never be discovered. Remember, directions on the use of pesticides will insure they are not around when honey is produced if the beekeeper follows the label. So the pesticides are confined to the brood nest, not honey supers. I was a long time member of the Maine Organic Farmers group. The problem with groups like it is it is difficult to separate the nuts from the berries. The true believers, who are usually marginal or hobby practitioners, have a disproportionate influence on the group. There is a constant fight between the practical and the loony. When the practical are all large, commercial farms with money, the standards are realistic, practical and cost conscious. If the industry is small, like beekeeping in Maine, the organic loonies have the greatest voice, and the Organic power brokers just do not care what happens in that small world. So you get dumb standards, like not harvesting brood. In countries where beekeeping is organic, not because they want to but because they are too poor to do otherwise, brood is food. Some beekeepers on this list harvest brood for food (there have been recipes here on the BeeL). But Peta and Vegans have their say and you get stupid standards. "Protect the brood!" Unfortunately, there is nothing new here. The rule that the further you get from the farm the more you are into animal rights, is true. A city dweller can vote to protect deer from those bad hunters since you do not have crops to protect. Or vote for "open space" at the expense of farmers. I am only getting warmed up. Now, let me tell you what I really think! Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:25:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: KHPA & MBA joint state meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I would like to invite all those beekeepers in the area to the joint meeting of The Kansas Honey Producers Association & The Missouri State Beekeepers Association. Friday & Saturday March 3 & 4 at the Overland Park Marriott 10800 Metcalf , Overland Park, Kansas I believe both organizations have got web sites. We have lined up some excellent speakers including Marla Spivak, Diana Sammatara & Tom Seeley. By going together the clubs can bring bigger names to our meetings. I will be doing a presentation on "Russian Bees" on Saturday. Last workshop of the day. I had hoped to talk about a different subject as I have given the presentation at the Midwestern Beekeepers assn., KHPA & MBA before but "Russian bees" and varroa tolerant bees is what they want to hear about. The members were not so interested four years ago. If a member of the list has information on the forming of the new Russian breeders assn. at the AHPA meeting please mail or email as I am sure I will be asked. In the fall of 2004 I got a lot of flak on Bee-L for saying" tens of thousands of hives were crashing". Proved to be true. I got a letter from the ABF today and this is what the ABF is saying about this winter. I am sure all ABF members got the flyer. quote American Beekeeping Federation flyer: "Varroa mites have become resistant to legal chemical controls, and HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of hives have perished this winter." The purpose of the flyer is to raise money to save the bee lab funding which the Bush administration is wanting to cut. for info you can email ABFnet.org All my hives are now either Russian or varroa tolerant. I see varroa as a non issue. Come listen to a talk by a fellow beekeeper without an agenda share his thoughts on the last four years of keeping Russian bees from four different breeders. Although the talk is on Russian bees the crowd is not going to let me get away without talking about varroa tolerant stock. I will be at the meeting both days. If you monitor BEE-L please come up an introduce yourself. I am usually with my partner Glenn Davis. Glenn is easy to spot as he is 6' 5" tall and around 280 lbs. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 17:14:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herve Abeille Subject: Re: African genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> Hello Herve, >> I don't buy what you are selling! As for De Jong, Caron or >> Winston. I would love to see any one of them go to Brazil I am not selling anything. I am passing on the info I got from Dave De Jong: > Today most apiculturists are satisfied with their conditions and actually prefer Africanized bees because it is easy to get bees and because they are good producers. Indeed, the large number of people now taking up beekeeping, including many young men and women, attests to the manageability of these bees. > As scientists, we are no longer concerned with the strong defensive behavior of the bees. In fact, today most commercial beekeepers in Brazil prefer to work with Africanized bees. The defensive behavior of these bees has decreased and beekeepers slowly realized they could exploit the high capacity for adaptation, reproduction and productivity of the Africanized bees. David De Jong Professor of Genetics Genetics Department Faculty of Medicine University of Săo Paulo 14.049-900 Ribeirăo Preto, SP BRASIL Fax 55 16 3633 6482 e-mail ddjong@fmrp.usp.br website: www.funpecrp.com.br -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 17:06:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: African genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Herve, I didn't mean to offend you Herve. I happen to know there are those in Brazil which want to ship AHB genetics into the U.S.. They feel now because we have got AHb why not. A new market! As a geneticist De Jong should know how AHB genetics work. Its really simple. Dr. Kerr has it right! If you want to convince commercial beekeepers in the U.S. we need to raise queens from mongrel AHB and go to walk away splits then do as I suggested. Put 400-500 AHB hives in double bodies and feed four or five gallons of syrup to get ready for a honey flow. Maintain at 60,000 bees most of the year. Keep all in a single location. Holding yards of 10,000 are not unusual in the U.S.. Move 5-10 times a year. Big difference in the way we keep bees in the U.S. and Brazil. There are beekeepers and bee havors. Two AHb hives were in three semi loads of bees in a holding yard. I warned the two guys feeding the bees to be on the lookout. When I called those guys they said "we found those two hives you warned us about!" "Smoke only upset them and they stung by the hundreds" I killed both hives. Can you imagine 1350 of those hives instead of two? I have a hard time keeping help now. Had a guy quit last year over a few stings. People are law suit happy in the U.S.. Every other person you talk to is a lawyer it seems looking for a lawsuit! Please keep your AHB queens south! Thank you! There is a big difference between leave alone AHb beekeeping and our U.S. migratory beekeeping. As I said before a AHB with less than 25% AHB genetics is workable for the most part but let the queen supercede or the bees raise a queen after swarming and before long the F4 worker is 93.75% africanized if mated with an AHB drone. Because of swarming the percent AHb in a hive can change in a summer to almost pure AHB. I would love to debate the subject with De Jong on the list. You can not argue with research. Bring David on! I would bet he would say the AHB he sees would not work in my setting. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 18:01:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: African genetics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Herve Abeille wrote:The defensive behavior of these bees has decreased and beekeepers slowly realized they could exploit the high capacity for adaptation, reproduction and productivity of the Africanized bees. David De Jong Professor of Genetics Herve, You indicate that the defensiveness of the Africanzed bees down there has decreased. Have you personally noticed this in the past few years? How would you compare the defensiveness of today's current Africanized bees with the Europeans you had years ago? To what do you attribute the reduced hostility of these bees? How much do you think is due to modification of management techniques? How much is due to selection for mildness in the bees you currently have? Mike in Lower Alabama (LA) --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:07:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Re: African genetics MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" To: Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 10:40 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] African genetics Question Bob, Do you know if the beeks in the AHB areas provide lots of drone comb in their EHB hives? Seems this would be a good practice to help overwhelm any AHB genetics that might be out there. Alden Marshall Hudson, NH 03051 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 19:48:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: getting bees to almonds with brood In-Reply-To: <001c01c632a2$96447f40$bfe2f7a5@hrgmy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "CN honey@jps.net" wrote: Mike What I am trying to say is, the days are over when you can send bees from a cold climate right into the almonds.In other words , get them the hell out of the snow by mid Nov. Now that may not be convenient for you, but if you play the almond circuit, it's your best bet. good luck with your spring, Keith Thanks Keith, Actually spring like weather is already here. I have drones in all my hives now with a good number of capped and uncapped drone brood visible. I think we are about two to three weeks ahead of schedule in the bee development side of things. I have already been into my hives. Found one hive that apparantly lost its queen and I moved a frame of brood and eggs into it. After the weather clears, five days of rain forcast, I'll get back into it and see if they raised a queen, or if there is more brood present. I'm not worried about mating if they raise a new queen. I have the drones and we have intermittant good weather where the virgin will be able to get out and mate. Maybe not good enough to stay the course through the year, but well enough to get the hive built up. I'll have to requeen it anyway. It's part of a study and I have to have a certain strain of queen in it. I think it's one of my SMR hives. That's one nice thing about this study, the people that are ! running the test provide the queens. It's a really nice way to get some pure SMR and Russian queens, and for no cost. This year I plan to raise some queens for splits from the Russians and the SMR's. I will have to requeen three of my Russian hives and with the two Russians that overwintered successfully, I will have to strains of Russians from which to draw my new queens. May have a different strain of SMR's too, not too sure about that yet. About the bees from cold weather into the Almonds, you're right about that. There's already talk about moving the bees out of the north in Oct/Nov into the south and feeding heavily to build them up for the 10 solid combs of bees that they are now wanting out in California. I'm in a location where it would be easy to do that if I were wanting to get heavily into pollination. NOT! I just want to get somewhere around 300 hives going in my county and build up my honey sales. Since all honey production would be in one county I think I can build up a specialty sales. I've already had comments that the honey I sell tastes a lot better than the commercial variety that's sold in the stores. I'm hoping to capitalize on that. I'll be 65 in two years and I can have unlimited income after I turn the 65 mark. That will be the fall that I am hoping to take around 300 colonies into the next year. Hoping that will provide a pretty good supplement to my SS income. And, it sho! uld keep me busy enough to stay out of trouble. :) Mike in LA (Lower Alabama) --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 23:06:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: almond pollination To all prospective almond pollinators: I hope this can be my last post on the subject. Bottom line is that if you're going to want to play the almond game, you're going to have to manage your bees specifically for almond pollination. My whole beekeeping year revolves around one date--February 10th. That's when bees go into almonds, and are graded for strength a few days later. When they come out of almonds in March, all I'm thinking about is how to get them ready for next February! Honey, other pollination, sales of bees, etc. are all secondary. Not to say that you can't go home and make splits or honey, just always keep your eye on whether or not you're on track for February! East of the Rockies you have the luxury, like Kirk Webster said in ABJ, to let the weak and mite-infested colonies die off over winter and restock from early splits. You can't do that with almonds. You're going to have to pump up your bees from August on so they winter with a big cluster of young bees, lots of late brood rearing, fat with pollen or supplement, plenty of honey, and stock that builds up early regardless of the weather or pollen flows. Most important, they absolutely can't be compromised by mites (or any other disease) during the last rounds of brood rearing, or going into cluster, or they will dwindle or collapse in January or February. Winter time is WAY too late to think about getting your bees ready for almonds; think August at the latest! The demand is going to be there for bees next year. The growers will be willing to pay for them. They will also be wanting to get their money's worth with "big bees." Almond pollination is certainly not for everyone. Read Bob Harrison's article in last year's ABJ (does nonstop winter rain, deep mud, and blasting wind that rips covers off sound like fun?) Endless loading, hauling, and unloading. Late nights in unmarked orchards on unnamed roads. Murphy's Law in full effect. Read my previous posts (I can email anyone a summary). Avoid unpleasant and costly surprises. The almond growers are good guys and support us. The brokers I know are good guys and gals(I'm not forgetting you). If you want to play the game, learn the rules, know the risks, and be prepared! Good luck :) Randy Oliver Calif -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:18:41 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: <43F5F0A1.4000207@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> So, if you keep organic honey on the shelf of a roadside stand in the sun, it will quickly be no better than the cheapest honey in a supermarket and probably worse. That's not true. The cheap honey in the supermarket often contains honey as only as a primary and often even secondary ingredient. Honey will oxidize some minor components in the sun, however that's a process that takes months, maybe weeks if it really is in the direct sun. The worst thing that can happen is some carmelization. However the heat from the sun is probably less than the heat used to treat honey unless and only maybe unless you are talking desert or tropical sun. I can't see a responsible beekeeper keeping honey in the sun except maybe on a FIFO basis for displays in uncovered stands. If you are selling honey successfully in a stand, the honey isn't sitting out in the sun for ANY appreciable time, and the honey is subject to much gentler conditions than when shipped in glass containers cross-country, and stored in unknown conditions for often years before it gets to final destination. >> But it will still have the label even though it is poisonous to bees and would never make it into Europe. I seriously doubt that too, the only thing that unadultered/uncontaminated (I don't need to say organic for this, just any unadultered or uncontaminated honey) could have that would be bad for bees from long term storing in sun or high heat is carmel, not spoilage. However I would be happy to call carmelized honey spoiled honey. >> But it is still organic and people will feel good spending money for bad honey. I can hardly call it bad honey, what makes it bad? High HMF or low HMF? Like I said, it takes honey a LONG time to oxidize and carmelize in the sun. It would have to be a really hot day with direct noon-time sun to have honey heated to 122°. Red wine would be effected much more drastrically than honey, however the ideal storage conditions for honey are similar to wine (No or little exposure to light, and an even unchanging temperature). Honey contains various major and minor esters, colloids and enzymes just like wine and the "quality" of the honey can be swiftly destroyed in honey. However this "quality" has nothing to do with the spoilage of honey, simply with its loss of certain flavor and olfactory profiles and perhaps a loss in some proported health benefits of these esters and enzymatic activity. It’s the same with wine, it doesn't spoil it, it just makes it less desireable. I agree with you here in that...but not that it becomes spoiled (which is the term I think Bill was looking for), nor bad for the bees. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 06:04:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: African genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Do you know if the beeks in the AHB areas provide lots of drone comb in their EHB hives? Only in mating yards from what I have seen. You have to keep close watch on hives with full sheets of drone comb for high levels of varroa. Especially in late season. I only run extra drone comb myself in drone mother colonies & hives I am adding varroa pressure to. Only Dann Purvis and myself are using the added varroa pressure philosophy from what I have gleaned off the net and at meetings. We hope to kill off the hives which can not handle varroa quicker and speed up the selection process. I only have a small number of hives ( I am now only testing new lines for varroa tolerance) wintering right now with added varroa pressure. I started with three lines and have already killed off two lines ( I only wished to kill off 50% but losing all happens and part of the game) but one group is still alive with a few strong hives. Hopefully I will find a breeder queen in one of those. We have had some really cold weather for our area so not sure what I will find when the weather breaks. Winter is tough on varroa experiments. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 09:00:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herve Abeille Subject: Re: African genetics Bob Harrison wrote: >Herve, >I didn't mean to offend you Not a problem. It's just that I am not selling anything. I am retired from the bee industry, so I don't stand to benefit from any of this. Consider it to be the thoughts of an impartial observer. I met Dave De Jong and I admit that I was surprised by his point of view. But it certainly jibes with what we have read in the past two months on BEE-L. I am referring to the fact that the African bee is an unstoppable force of nature. When it moves into an area, it becomes THE BEE. In many areas this is a definite benefit, such as coffee plantations. The wild AHB colonies are greatly improving pollination. When they say that beekeepers like the bees, what they mean is that the ones that don't have quit, and the ones that do have adapted. And they get the side benefit of not having to treat for mites. > Experience in Brazil has shown that Africanized colonies can be managed satisfactorily: to an extent they have increased honey yields year by year. The practice adopted differs drastically from US methods, is labour intensive ... The economies of scale that enable a small population of beekeepers to manage a prodigiously large number of colonies, now become a significant liability. The vigilance and hive by hive attention common in the rest of the world are not feasible for US operators. < --from Bees for Development website I don't necessarily agree with this statement above, but I understand it. And I think the US approach to african bees has to be tailored to the style of US beekeepers. I think that it is essential to understand several things. One, hostile hives have to be culled immediately. Requeening them is probably not worth the bother. Two, passively assuming that saturation is going to prevent africanization is a pipedream which has been utterly discredited. You have to be active, you have to have a plan. Like, get serious about northern queens. The whole cycle can be shifted. Whereas now, most of the queens in US beehives are raised in the south and the bees are moved northward, what can happen is a large percentage can be raised in the north in summer. This does not mean that beekeepers won't go south. I know they will keep going south even if the whole sunbelt gets africanized, because of the great benefit of the climate and the bee forage. Not to mention, it gives them something to do in the winter. And I understand that many will think of themselves as "too busy" to do much queen work in summer. However, I can envision a different approach to beekeeping that would involve making splits in the summer with the intention of taking them south to build up for the following spring. An old friend of mine showed me how to make nucs more rapidly than any other method I have ever seen. You load a yard of bees up and move it to another spot. Immediately you divide the hives as far as they can possibly go, making as many as 7 or 8 splits per hive. By this means you could go from 120 to 1000. These would get queens or queen cells, and basically be left alone. (I should mention that by waiting 3 days, it becomes very obvious which hives ended up with the original queens; they're the ones with eggs. At this point, they can more easily be found). So, along with shipping your colonies that have spent the summer pollinating or making honey, you have all your increase in the form of a lot of weak singles. These will still have to be attended to during the winter, but instead of making them up in the south during winter, you already have them. And the queens are northern summer queens, which means they are mated with non-african drones. Herve -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 06:42:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Harrison, You say you want to get this articul right, I question that!=20 I put a post up that stated your facts were not right, no respose from = you. I also e-mailed asking you to contact me, with no respose. I asked Randy Over why they don't get a county inspection? Randy has = never been inspected by the county, but I have serveal times. Funny = thing all of them were accurate. Now you say everybody's calming down, = either you have the bees in your box or you don't. As you know by now = I'm not as compassionate or apologetic as others here, but I seek = fairness and the truth. Now you're aksing Randy about pollen feeding??? Did you not read my = long post the other day, all about feeding pollen?? Sounds to me you do not want to hear the truth, you side step all around = me. The beekeepers with the most experience and knowledge get shoved = aside, like myself. Is it because I grade hard? Sorry if I hold myself = to higher standers.=20 Kim Flottum e-mail me and wanted to interveiw me on pollen feeding. He = said he was impressed with my method and procedure. =20 Here anything like that from a guy about to do story in the ABJ about = this, NO ! Bob, don't use anthing I say in your story as I think your information = gathering is biased. Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:01:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: HMF (was Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S.) In-Reply-To: <000601c63442$6726a6b0$0600a8c0@workstation> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot Mc Pherson wrote: > That's not true. The cheap honey in the supermarket often contains honey > as only as a primary and often even secondary ingredient. Honey will > oxidize some minor components in the sun, however that's a process that > takes months, maybe weeks if it really is in the direct sun. HMF is what I was talking about. HMF, hydroxymethylfurfural, is a good indicator of the quality of the honey and if it still has all the enzymes that are essential if you want the "real thing". They are not minor components but are the difference between what we beekeepers know as honey, compared to a colored, flavored, supersaturated sugar solution. The EU, by setting HMF standards, recognizes this. HMF is temperature and time dependent. At about 120F honey will no longer meet the EU spec in about 3-5 days. Above 120F and the time gets down to a day or so. Since my roadside stand was in Texas in August, it would be unacceptable for bees or human consumption in the EU in days. HMF is harmful to bees. There are some who say it is also harmful to humans, but I have seen no science to back that up. There is good science to show honey with HMF is bad for bees. "A study in Germany (Jachimowicz and Sherbiny, 1975) found that the concentration of hydroxymethylfurfural (HMF) in sugar syrups is indeed the factor that influences bee mortality. They found that HMF levels below 3 mg/100 g of syrup did not kill bees. However, HMF levels of 15 mg/100 g of syrup, which is common in commercially available acid hydrolyzed invert sugars, causes significantly increased mortality. Mortality was the result of gut ulceration. Expanding on this work in a personal interview, Dr. W. Kalt, Food Plant Biochemist (Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, Kentville, NS) explained that HMF is a by-product of the acid hydrolysis process which splits the sucrose molecule into the simple sugars, fructose and dextrose. In contrast, the enzyme hydrolysis process reshapes the molecule so the split does not result in the formation of HMF." This is from http://www.wildwoodlabs.com/viewer.php?article_id=52 but you can find similar studies on the Internet. You can also find it in real life. This happened in the US when some commercial beekeepers fed acid hydrolyzed HFCS to bees for overwintering. The bees died. Enzyme produced HFCS is just fine for bees. (Lots on this in the archives.) The 15 mg/100 g (150 mg/kg) of syrup concentration of the study is much higher than EU standards which I believe is 40 mg/kg HMF. The study has the bottom limit at 30 mg/kg so the EU limit is actually higher than the study, but that may be from research they did at 40mg/kg and they did not find harm. There was also some concern by Southern California beekeepers with high HMF in their honey which sits out in the sun over long periods. They did not like the EU HMF limits because their honey had higher HMF concentrations by being in the hot sun. They were trying to set standards for HMF and it appears they gave up. So it is not academic but real. So it matters little if the honey is organic or from other sources when HMF is involved. Which was my point. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 11:12:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: [Fwd: Re: [BEE-L] Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S.] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot Mc Pherson wrote: >The cheap honey in the supermarket often contains honey >as only as a primary and often even secondary ingredient. > I have to wonder where you are shopping. On every single variety of inexpensive supermarket honey labeled "honey" not imitation honey or honey syrupo, but, as you suggest above "honey" the only ingredient is . . . honey. In the supermarkets in my area there are usually 6-10 varieties/packers on the shelf. Are they all lying? Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 11:57:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:57:52 -0600, Bob Harrison wrote: > >Prove to me your honey is better. Talk is cheap! > >Bob Better is relative but ts not too hard to be better then packing house slum. My honey is different then grocery store honey… a lot different. I'm not organic, don’t call my products organic and do not use strips, antibiotics or any practices I consider non-sustainable. I do believe that organic/natural methods fit my situation trying to make a full time living with a modest number of colonies and financial leverage. I’m in control of my future and not subject to the whims of the wholesale honey market. They also fit my value system. But perceived or real "better" is not the only criteria which comes into play in today’s food markets. The organic and natural food movement is a value system that encompasses many issues. People want to know where their food is coming from and how it was produced. If you were Joe or Jane Consumer and had a choice, would you rather support an industry which uses annual chemical treatments, overuse of antibiotics and moves bee hives across the nation spreading pests, disease and now AHB genetics? This mass movement of hives appears to be an almost last ditch survival mode operation since the domestic honey industry is on the verge of collapse. That’s where the term sustainable farming comes into play. I personally don't believe that the current state of commercial beekeeping is sustainable, good for our environment or for the honeybee's long term existence. If as a consumer you could purchase products which keep a small farm in business and that farm runs a sustainable operation without the use of chemicals and survival mode practices would that not sound appealing? My opinion could be used to describe the beef, dairy, poultry or any segment of the farm industry not just honey. Feedlot beef versus grass fed free range? growth hormone milk versus non, free range poultry versus industrial chicken Yuk!!!!!!!? I would not feed my dog some of that stuff. When you suggest its all about the money conventional farming is all about the commodity houses (Cargil, ConAgra, some not all large honey packers) who are screwing the producer out of their fair share of the pie. To me sustainable farming also includes the ability to make a decent living. The idea that food should be cheap has been ruinous to our heritage and environment in this country. We pay a big price in this country for having 69 cent per pound hamburger and $2.50 a gallon milk and 1 pound honey bears for $1.99. Its put a lot of hard working, honest people out of business, ruined rural communities and lined the pockets of the big boys . So I just don't see the glory in conventional farming practices and my sense is more and more Americans are feeling the same way. If you don't think folks don't buy tennis shoes, clothes and groceries with criteria that is not cost driven you are simply out of touch my friend. And yes most of my customers are suburbanites living in a big city which coincidently that’s where most of the people in this country live in now in 2006…the city. So whether a farmer buys my honey or not is of no concern to me since they make up a rather small portion of the consumer pool. Many conventional farmers here in the Midwest eat meat and dairy products full of antibiotics and growth hormones and other heavily processed foods. I guess that just proves that they believe the PR campaign put forth by big agribusiness. I feel sorry for them, they’re practices of keeping feedlots and overproduction of corn and soybeans does nothing to promote a clean environment and a healthy rural economy. They 've become pawns in the agribusiness food chain relegated to going through the motions which are dictated by some guy in a suit 100’s of miles away. Here in Mn we are fighting a campaign by Big Agribusiness to take away local township control when it comes to approving feedlots and make it a state approval. Great lets now take away the rights of tax paying citizens to decide how their own back yard is governed so big business can have their way and their profits and eventually put more farmers out of business. This is just a sampling of some of the politics of conventional "agribusiness" farming versus sustainable/organic/natural which is going on in the minds of consumers. Making a pound of honey is not the point , the point is how its done and what are the consequences of the production process. p.s. the natural and organic food segment is growing at 20-25% per year , apparently someone does not think its ridiculous (except perhaps some beekeepers). -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:18:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Keith & All, Sorry you are upset with me. I have talked to many upset people over the issue. Both Tim Tucker and I are wondering what you are upset about? You got top dollar for your hives! It seems you have got little compassion for your fellow beekeepers which are leaving California with their outfits in ruins. You are the California beekeeper which seems to take the Grower/broker side the most. I am a very busy person. Happens to be the temperature this week is so cold in Missouri. I am shut down as far as beekeeping is concerned so I have plenty of time for the internet and researching the current article. Your opinion is only one of many. I have interviewed many people. I want the story of what happened not of one California beekeeper screaming out of state beekeepers should have known better. Some of these families were bringing bees into almonds before you were born. I don't normally publish on BEE-L my private email but I am going to include the email (which he said he never got but was the basis for this post) I sent Keith asking for permission to use information he posted on BEE-L in my article. I always ask. Best of luck with your bees in the coming season! Maybe we can exchange recipes for pollen patties. Like most cooks I think mine is better. Pollen patties with Chinese pollen! Yuck! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps this has been a tough article. I want to get it right. I removed the brokers name below but the rest of the email is intact. I added a couple of my comments in ( ). Hello Keith, I have talked to Randy Oliver and he said I could quote him in ABJ about the way he ready's bees for almonds. I would like to do the same with the methods you use. I believe out of state beekeepers need to be told what they need to do to prepare. So far I have not found any concrete information of wrong doing by brokers so I will write the article by simply giving the release --- ------- and other brokers sent, comments from almond growers , out of state beekeepers and four or five California beekeepers. My only wish is to inform beekeepers so the problem does not repeat itself next year. Even the out of state beekeepers which were yelling the loudest are starting to calm down and get ready for the coming season. Tim Tucker is starting to calm down ( Tim I hope you don't mind what I said to Keith but you were very upset when we first spoke). One commercial beekeeper which has bees in almonds and is in Texas was screaming so loud I had to hold the phone away from my ear yesterday. He's still very pissed. Thanks for your help! Interesting all the work you do to prepare for almonds. Most out of state beekeepers buy patties from the Mexicans (north of Fresno) or -------Patties out of Canada. Beekeepers which have tried ----- ----- patties say the bees don't like the patty because of no real pollen . I have never tried any of the above patties but make my own. The only time we need patties in Missouri will be coming up in a week. Has been very cold ( 7 F. right now) and sap is in roots of trees. First warm spell I put patties on till the sap comes up and maples bloom. Bees were bringing in fresh pollen last brief warm spell. Henbit and wild mustard. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 12:17:49 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. The newspaper article said: > "But you might be surprised to hear that, currently, > it's impossible for U.S. honey producers to get their > product certified as organic." The entire premise of the article is completely and clearly false. There are several "USDA Organic" honey producers in Hawaii. Here are just two: http://www.volcanoislandhoney.com/ http://www.localharvest.org/store/item.jsp?id=4399 There are more. Clearly, the standards can be "met" to one extent or the other, or perhaps the certification entities in Hawaii are reading the more draconian sections of the regulations in a slightly less-strict way, I dunno. That said, the organic standards as defined for honey ARE highly unreasonable as compared to the standards for other commodities, but these basic issues are being considered by a group who cares more about insuring some fantasy-world level of both assured zero-pesticide content of not only the beekeeping operation, but also of every plant foraged upon, from plant root to nectaries. The basic errors made by the Organic standards committee are: a) thinking that non-organic land inherently results in non-organic nectar b) thinking that organic land inherently assures organic nectar Both statements should be obvious to even the casual observer as "patently untrue". Not to worry, the committee is listening to "the industry", and will asymptotically approach truth and rationality over time. (Don't be shy, Nancy Ostiguy is a very patient and nice person, and can be e-mailed at nxo3 AT psu DOT edu. She is on the committee to represent beekeeping, not impose her own personal opinions and will on everyone). Bill said: > There was also some concern by Southern California beekeepers with high > HMF in their honey which sits out in the sun over long periods. They did > not like the EU HMF limits because their honey had higher HMF > concentrations by being in the hot sun. They were trying to set standards > for HMF and it appears they gave up. So it is not academic but real. Its worse than that, Bill. The EU HMF standards are set so low simply because it does not get that hot in the EU for very long during the honey production season, while many other places where honey is produced do have hotter summers. So, even honey handled and stored with great care will go over the EU's artificially low HMF levels while still being "ripened" The whole EU HMF spec is easy to expose as nothing but an illegal non-tariff barrier to trade, a way to cynically restrict imports while posturing and posing about "health" in some vague and immeasurable way. The easy way to prove this is to sample some EU honey at EU open-air markets in the summer, and subject it to the same tests they want done on imported honey, which will reveal the con-game. I've never seen ANYONE keeping honey in a cooler at a farmer's market, have you? :) Don't blame the EU. If we could come up with something unique about honey produced in the USA, something that we could detect in lab tests, we'd likely lobby for something similar. Having "World Trade" shoved down everyone's throats does that to people. We are no better than they are. All and sundry view themselves as "victims", and will defend their livelihoods with every available tool at hand. So smile, and nod in appreciation of elegance of the trick played by the EU, and realize that if YOU had come up with the trick, you'd feel that you were the baddest dude out there (which we all know is false, because I'm out here, too). -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 11:19:46 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: HMF (was Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S.) In-Reply-To: <43F736C8.2060104@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, Thank you, that is some excellent information. However is there a study that demonstrates the process and its time frames at various temperatures? Again though, I assert that a responsible seller sells honey and ANY and ALL food products with a FIFO methodolgy (First In First Out) to ensure product remains fresh. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 11:57:12 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: High Increase Splitting In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Immediately you divide the hives as far as they can possibly go, making as many as 7 or 8 splits per hive. Splitting like this was developed by Langstroth, who tested the limits of splitting. However I believe he tested walk away splits getting success with 1 and 2 frame splits if the brood distribution and bee cluster were heavy enough. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:26:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: Re: almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Mike, Thanks for the post, I'm not offended and appreciate your time in = writing all of this. As it stands right now a lot of good bees are not = rented. It is not the almond grows problem that some keepers choose to = winter in cold climates even though they know that the bees are = committed to the almonds in late Jan. Ignorance and poor beekeeping practices is no fault of the grower. The grower has his whole year's revenue riding on three weeks of = pollination. How would you feel if you were like my friend Mike H., with two = thousand hives not rented because other keepers brought in crap at a = lower price? Mike H. is going to lose several hundred thousand dollars = because of ignorant keepers. Also, a guy from Idaho is sitting with 400 = that can't be rented (good bees too ). Look in the Modesto Bee or Fresno = Bee papers online, you will see bees renting for $80. Who am I going to = feel sorry for, take a wild guess. If I were to send my bees to the blueberry pollination out in = Timbuck-too, in which I've never done before, you can bet my homework = would be complete before I ever loaded a single hive. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 12:45:37 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [BEE-L] Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S.] In-Reply-To: <43F74763.9080507@sc.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Are they all lying? No certainly not, however there is some that sneaks in under the radar. And for the imitation/mixed stuff that is labeled "correctly", the general consumer often doesn't know the difference even if they are truthful (however obfuscating) about the product. So it's the all about money argument again and taking advantage of the innocent consumer. "Organic Honey" isn't strictly about "organic honey" its about raising the bar of standards that can be expected. "Organic Honey certification" is something like "I.T. Certification", no you can't count on that certified computer engineer being able to perform beyond expectations, but it does provide a measurable baseline to draw from. Are there uncertified IT people who can get the job done with excellence, you bet and more of them exist than the certified brand. There are people out there however who "think" they can do it, and will go out into the job market procuring a job they are unqualified for, therefore the certification process is a filter that gives the job holder/applicant a baseline that says, "He knows the material necessary to get certified." Organic Honey is in a very similar situation. Is there honey out there that is of just as good and pure quality as labeled organic honey? Sure. However by following as clean a system as is naturally possible ( And it is VERY possible as more and more people are adopting it very successfully on all scales) we are ensuring that we provide a baseline of quality. By being organic, we know our honey meets certain criteria that assures a measureable quality. With other nameless brands of honey on the shelf, sure it "could be" just as good or better, but we'll never know unless we put the honey and apiary through the tests. Is "organic honey" more valuable than "general unqualified honey". Yes and no, it is more valuable because as beekeepers we have gone to the trouble of assuring (whether baseless or not) that there is nothing wrong with our honey nor the bees making it. We have gone through the tough processes of getting off of chems (for those who have been on them), and yes I think that work, suffering, blood and sweat are worth the extra dollar. Is it garranteed that our honey is better quality that general honey? No, but at least we have something measurable, something we can say we did or did not do to improve the quality of our honey and the health and happiness of the lives that create it. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 11:30:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: Who buy almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To all, Guess who buy tons of Calif. Almonds???? China. Who tries to = pollinate with crap, some keepers with imported bees from Australia. = Follow the money, the truth isn't far behined.=20 Yeah I'm only forty one years old, with 25 years of experience , I = guess some are slow learners. Just a rookie, but a rich one. Keith Jarrett owner, California Natural's -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 12:32:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All, I believe you covered all of agriculture. You are on a noble mission. The only part missing to change the situation is money. I bought a ticket for the 365 million dollar power ball drawing tonight. If I win all my favorite beekeeping research will benefit. The beekeeping industry will benefit. I bought the ticket as a long shot chance that if a miracle would happen I could influence changes which effect the beekeeping industry. Could you see a lobbyist in Washington with 365 million dollars in backing? I don't disagree with what you say only that your movement lacks the teeth needed for real change and that is money and lots of money. Beekeepers have been trying to stand up to packers for decades but we lack the money to fight label law changes. p.s. the natural and organic food segment is growing at 20-25% per year , The problem is the organic sales are not all from the little guys like you. Big business is moving in. My friends which are certified organic for their farms are beginning to complain. Look at how the prices for organic produce has dropped over the last three years in the stores! Why would not the big corporate farms get on board? They get one farm organic certified and then run all their produce from the 10 other farms under the organic label. There is no enforcement of any kind. Zero! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 11:43:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Addison McMurtry Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification /II In-Reply-To: <20060217012931.4338.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Dee Lusby wrote: > Reply: > No offense Herve, but when you drop in virgins to > hives > marked to change over, you see a defininte color > change in > the queens. As a hobbyist beekeeper I ussually stay out of these discussions, but as a scientist I can't let this one pass. Dee, you're contending that they way that you know that the virgin queen you placed is the one that you see later is that she looks DIFFERENT? I understand that as queens start laying they may go through morphologic changes, but since this is so, how can you possibly know that the changed queen is the one that you placed? It sounds as though your techniques work well for you, but without studying them in a controlled fashion, you can't make scientifically valid statements about them. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data". -Lee McMurtry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 11:48:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [BEE-L] Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S.] In-Reply-To: <43F74763.9080507@sc.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Benson wrote: In the supermarkets in my area there are usually 6-10 varieties/packers on the shelf. Are they all lying? Keith Isn't there a truth in labeling law? I'm pretty sure that if a company in the U.S. lables something as honey and has other ingrediants included without including them on the label they are open to prosecution, resulting fines, and possibly prison terms for those officers of the company responsible for the practice. Mike --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 14:52:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [BEE-L] Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S.] In-Reply-To: <000a01c634bb$83199b60$0600a8c0@workstation> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot Mc Pherson wrote: >>>Are they all lying? >>> >>> > >No certainly not, however there is some that sneaks in under the radar. >And for the imitation/mixed stuff that is labeled "correctly", > Correct me if I am wrong, but I was merely commenting on whether or not honey, labeled as honey, contains honey as something other than a primary ingredient as you had asserted. Nothing more. I beleive you typed: "the cheap honey in the supermarket often contains honey as only as a primary and often even secondary ingredient." I am saying that this is not the case. I looked when I was shoppong this AM. Not a one of the bottles labeled honey had anything else in them. Are you still insisting that "the cheap honey in the supermarket often contains honey as only as a primary and often even secondary ingredient." We are not talkiing about "honey bunches of O's" we are talking honey. Am I a fan of the heated, highly filtered, bland honey I can find at publix? No, mine's better - it tastes more interesting. But each and every one of those bottles has a single ingredient - Honey. Now would it not be disingenuous to suggest otherwise? Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 12:04:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Pollen and pollen traps In-Reply-To: <002801c634a6$ff9afa40$1ebc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote:Bees were bringing in fresh pollen last brief warm spell. Henbit and wild mustard. Bob Hey Bob and all others, The bees here have been bringing that very same pollen for the last two weeks, at least. Look in the frames and those adjacent to the brood frames are packed with pollen. Seems like we are about two to three weeks ahead of normal this year. Last year it was the opposite. Everything was two to four weeks late. Anyway, brings up a question. Just got a brand spankin' new Sundance pollen trap. Haven't even painted it yet. The instructions say that when installed the bees will be confused for about a week or two in getting in and out. This is my brood build up time. I don't want to impede that at all. So..... When would it be a good time to install the trap and how often should the trap be operated and for how long a time. The accompanying literature has its instructions but I would like to get info from those of you with experience with its use. My plans are to use a combination of real pollen and pollen substitute next year to build up my bees early for our early honey flow. I know, I know. Look in the BEE-L archives. I just thought of that and will do so after I post this but I still want to hear from you guys and gals. Mike in LA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 12:18:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredericksen wrote:My honey is different then grocery store honey� a lot different. We pay a big price in this country for having 69 cent per pound hamburger and $2.50 a gallon milk and 1 pound honey bears for $1.99. Brian, My honey is also different from the store shelf honey. This was brought home to me twice in the last couple of months. A consumer two states away called me at home. He had bought my honey at a botanical show a month previously and liked it so well that he called and ordered more than just a little honey. Told me I had a long time customer if I continued producing the honey he bought. It cost him considerably more to buy from me and have it shipped to him that what it would have cost off the store self. He told me it was the quality of the honey. About three weeks later I was approached by a local customer who told me they had to get some more of my honey. They ran out and bought some off the store shelf, tasted it, and threw it away. We don't have to compete with the store shelf honey. If we process our honey so that it retains its original flavors, is attractive on the shelf, and is fairly reasonable in price, then it will sell itself - over the commercial, high volume stuff found on the shelf. Quality still sells. Cadillacs still cost more than Ford, Chevy, or Chrysler economy cars and people still buy them. As quality producers we don't have to downgrade the high volume products. Our own products will do it for us. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 12:25:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Pollenation Probs In-Reply-To: <002501c634b0$74f5ebc0$6ae1f7a5@hrgmy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit CN honey@jps.net" wrote: If I were to send my bees to the blueberry pollination out in Timbuck-too, in which I've never done before, you can bet my homework would be complete before I ever loaded a single hive. And not only that, I'd have signed and sealed contracts stating all the where-fores and if-nots included before I'd load and move bees with that much of a front end cost. Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 12:46:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: Re: Pollen traps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Mike , I use to run 1000 traps on my bees. I built my own with drone escapes. = I had a nice market in Japan, but with the on sought of mites, chemicals = kept showing up in the pollen. In Japan you can't have any traces of = antibiotic, or chemicals what so ever, parts per million. The ministry = over there is a though nut to crack not to mention the language. You know Mike, I just bought a new 40' diesel pusher motorhome and have = plans to be near there in early march (southern Calif.) Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 13:27:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification /II In-Reply-To: <20060218194346.19937.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lee writes: Dee, you're contending that they way that you know that the virgin queen you placed is the one that you see later is that she looks DIFFERENT? Reply: Lee, I am known for using small black or brown/black virgin queens. These are put into the lesser 1/3 colonies that are marked on outside box with yellowish queens inside. The color differientation is noticable;Acceptance is high with these virgin drops due to the way put in also. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 10:07:49 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Pollen traps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In Japan you can't have any traces of antibiotic, or chemicals what so > ever, parts per million. I think if you were to check now there are MRL's in place for some bee products and I think pollen is one. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:30:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. Comments: To: Brian Fredericksen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Obviously, Brian is getting more money for his honey than the average American beekeeper. I also think it’s obvious that the quality of his honey is better than average. As an aside, I don’t mean to dispute Bill’s statement that tests of organic and non-organic honey have shown no differences at all, but I don’t think we should limit our definition of quality to what we can prove in a lab. Moreover, I think any definition of “quality” that only looks at the end- product will be self-defeating. In other words, I think our definition of “quality” needs to take into account what the production of the honey has done to the beekeeper, to the land, to the community, to the suppliers and laborers, and even to spotted owls and the other “global” issues of the organic left field. The problem with the left field is not that they consider how things impact spotted owls, but that they give more weight to the needs of spotted owls than to their neighbors. All this to say that it’s in this holistic sense that I say the quality of Brian’s honey is better. As another aside, I also don’t mean to dispute the claims of dishonest marketing and behind the scenes cheating. I can see that from the customer’s perspective, looking at a jar of honey on a shelf in a suburban strip mall, an “organic claim” may have very little “organic substance.” And that’s a valid complaint, but I’d like to take our perspective, the beekeeper’s perspective, and we do know how we manage our own hives. So to get back to Brian’s claim that the “sustainable” way to keep bees is to sell high dollar (very high dollar) honey to suburbanites, I strongly object, despite the fact that he’s presumably making very good money while avoiding a number of objectionable “shortcuts” that a lot of other beekeepers take. First of all, I don’t think we can say we’re “sustainable” and at the same time say: “whether a farmer buys my honey or not is of no concern to me.” I asked before, what quality do suburbanites possess that farmers lack? A couple answers I could suggest are ignorance and paranoia. If Brian isn’t able to sell to farmers because they’re in more of a position to judge the real value of his product, then I’m seeing red flags. A “sustainable” product, or in other words a “sustainably” produced product, is “sustainable” because it doesn’t come at anyone or anything else’s expense. A sustainable product isn’t just a conversion of a depletable resource. In other words, if the production of my corn requires washing my topsoil down the Mississippi (i.e. depleting it), then my corn production isn’t sustainable. Or if my profits as a real estate “developer” come at the expense of ruining the countryside, then my “development” isn’t sustainable. We can use things up/deplete them/mine them, and we can make money doing so, but to say we’re “sustainable” is to say that’s NOT how we’re doing things. Likewise, it would not be sustainable for me to sell high dollar honey to suburbanites if my gain comes at their loss. This gets back to my question about whether we, as beekeepers, would buy our own honey at our own prices if we were in different shoes. If we wouldn’t, it seems obvious to me that the reason is that we know our honey isn’t really worth what we’re charging. I’m not denying any claims of the under-exploited “market potential” of paranoid suburbanites with more money than they know what to do with, but let’s call a spade a spade. Taking advantage of suburbanites’ ignorance and paranoia by convincing them that our honey is worth more than it is and thereby relieving them of their excess riches is not “sustainable.” The big variable in all this that I’ve mostly avoided defining is what my or your honey is “really worth.” Of course, we can’t answer that question objectively, but we should have some perspective on the question. Brian said, “To me sustainable farming also includes the ability to make a decent living. The idea that food should be cheap has been ruinous to our heritage and environment in this country.” I very much agree that our low- price mania with regards to food and everything else has been ruinous, but I wonder how sustainable a solution we really want. If we’re not going to mass-produce things the cheap way, then we’re going to have less stuff. What we have may really be worth more, but there’s going to be less stuff. We can’t have our cake and eat it to, and if we think we can, then we’re probably eating somebody else’s cake. I’m all for being sustainable, but when it comes to pricing our “sustainable honey,” we ought to also define “a decent living” according to sustainable standards, which will probably mean our “decent living” is more like our great-great-great-grandparents’ living than our current neighbors’ living. We just need to be consistent, unless what we really are after is to get rich at somebody else’s expense. In principle, I really agree with a lot of Brian’s thoughts, but I suspect he’s oversimplifying things. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 23:48:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Language and Quality of Recent Posts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To the Moderators and the Guilty Few, Recently - on and off for the past few months - on this List there has been such baneful language, finger pointing, and positioning that frankly I do not feel comfortable. Knowing that this List is sometimes frequented by secondary school children doing research for high school projects and read by adults, men and women, more sensitive than myself it is my humble opinion that the minimal standards of language on this List should be raised and posts with abusive and vulgar and baneful comments or criticism should be rejected. This List is recognized by many to be the most respected Beekeeping List on the Internet. If such pointed, sarcastic, and deplorable comments are allowed to continue then IMHO the worthiness and respectability of this List is reduced to the value of the language in which the List is written. This list is frequented by many outstanding and knowledgeable leaders in our industry; leaders who contribute their time and energy to the betterment of beekeeping by contributing to the vitality of this List. There are many ways to disagree but folks lets keep it civil! And, frankly unless nosema or mice or small hive beetles have affected the denizens of a hive most beehives are quite sanitary except perhaps for the buzz of the “gentlemen” whose defecation of words is representative of their self- image. Let’s all try to get along and keep the high standards that this List is recognized for maintaining not only in the content of the posts written but the language that they are written in. Sincerely, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm 330 Irvin Street Reidsville, NC 27320 Tel: 336 342 4490 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 09:29:00 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: [BEE-L] Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > If Brian isn't able to sell to farmers because > they're in more of a position to judge the real value of his product, then > I'm seeing red flags. > Its difficult for average farmer ( and beekeeper) to value organic products over normal production. If they do this they admit that they themselves are doing something wrong in their own work. No one is willing to do this. If turned to politics it would mean a hard republican to admire democratic candidates more than the ones from his party. So the opinions of producers are biased, because they are in the game with their stakes. In todays newspaper in Finland: 25 % of Swedish farmer say that they would use GMO plants in their farming if they were available. And about the same percentage said that they would buy food made from GMO pland without hesitation. I would take the guess that these opinions come from same persons ....... Ari Seppälä Finland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 03:16:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: running bees for success MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scot, Thanks for the reply,don't give up on your posting. The moderators, I = think try to keep it clean and upbeat and family oriented.I have not got = all of my post on either ,but that's ok,Im thankful for the ones that = do. Scot, As you know by now what kind of person I am. I don't complain, = cry foul, or whine much. I try to focus my energy on solving problems, = if I have any(who doesn't) and always looking to the future, for = opportunity.In my last couple of post, I outline some things that I have = done.I've build my own pollen traps, pollen cleaning machine,right now = I'm building up a Case w-4 loader.Its very close to a swinger, but about = 30% faster.I have about eight thousand dollars in it , and should be = finish late this year.When somebody tells me it cant be done, I laugh on = the inside. Somebody told me you cant rise brood in northern Calif. in = the winter. Funny thing, I been doing it for about twenty years. Don't listen to those kind of people that say, I've been doing this = before you were born, or we've been doing this for five generation. That = is not a prerequisite for success. My net earnings on my bees is about = four times the average.Don't get caught up in all the negatives, as you = know, I just distance myself from some of that recently.Have you read = the farm bill lately? Bush has got alot of goodies in their for keepers. As fare as the Almonds pollination goes, if you remember my first = almond post,I used to take on about two thousand hives from North = Dakota. Lonnie, and Conrad's bees, they both thought they could pocket = more if they did it them self's. They found out that hauling dead out = equipment from Calif. to Texas wasn't what they had in mine.I'm just a = rookie at this, first generation, about half way their. Thanks again, Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 08:08:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard Kogan Subject: What Honey is Worth? Eric's comments on what Honey is worth raises the question of the price versus the value of all products in our economy. The short answer and the cynical one is that anything is worth whatever you can get anyone to pay for it. The price of anything -if the criteria is sustainability- is very different. But since when are most people interested in sustainability? If they were Walmart would be gone and your town would still have a Main Street instead of a Mall. My honey costs (everything considered)probably twice the $4.00/lb I sell it for. Why don't I sell it for $8.00? Because if I did the marketing/advertizing to boost its 'apparent' value to $8.00, it would cost me $12.00/lb. Is my honey business sustainable? No way. But it is a reasonably inexpensive hobby and I do get a kick out of people telling me it is the best honey they have ever tasted. And most importantly, my family eats it too. I feel troubled by the many economic problems faced by commercial beekeepers just as I do by the many problems faced by farmers in general. I think it means we have a sick economy but I don't know what I can do about it except complain and use my vote wisely. Howard -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 09:39:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline There are a lot of good comments coming through on this thread, but we all need to beware of wanting to use 'Organic' to differentiate 'our' honey fro= m the 'big guys'. I sell lots of honey through our local food coop. An upscale market that just grew out of a storefront founded in the 60's by a few hippies. Money doesn't seem to be an factor for anything that is (1) local or (2) organic. The manager of the produce area, where my honey is placed, tells me that (2= ) is far LESS important than (1)! Case in point. I had been casually aware that the vast US garlic farms in California had been vanquished by garlic from China, but I was unaware of the full extent of this. This past fall I was lamenting the scarcity and small size of local garlic with the manager of the area. She agreed and said that the scarcity and size was causing her to buy the Chinese stuff an= d pointed out that even that labeled Organic was from China! I was astounded. Not as good looking as the 'big white stuff', but clearly labeled as both 'from China' and 'Organic'. She told me that her customers will always buy local first, but when they want Organic they don't care if it is from China or Nebraska. Mark my words, we will see Organic Honey from China (and from New Zeland, Argentina, etc.). Are there Organic Police? If not, who knows? Protect your brand...label by variety (if possible) and by all means label as LOCAL. If you can justify it, also label as 'no pesticides or antibiotics', etc. BTW, I know of one large regional packer who is now testing samples from every supplier for fluvalinate, coumaphous, terramyacin, Tylosin, and (I forget the name...the ingredient in sheep dip used for mites). I understand that it is not unusual to reject honey from beekeepers because of detecting one of the latter two ingredients. (I do not know the levels detected.) Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 09:52:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Tylosin tolerance levels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On page 91 of the February 2006 ABJ there are comments about the use of Tylosin to control AFB. Included in these comments are the following comments attributed to the FDA "the exposure resulting from the consumption of honey from treated hives does not represent a human safety concern and a tolerance for tylosin in honey is not needed". I don't pretend to fully understand regulatorspeak, but to me that means...don't worry about any level of tylosin in honey! DUH...who paid fo= r that! Why did ABF, the NHB, etc. let that go through? Is someone nuts? My understanding is that tylosin is presently the 'last available' antiboti= c standing in the way of certain resistant bacteria, such as some strains of staph. Yet we are letting humans get continually dosed with small quantities? I know that this has been going on for many years with tylosin used as a growth factor for poultry, pigs, etc., but did it have to get extended to honey? Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 07:41:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Will the problems in California Almond groves ever end? http://www.chicoer.com/newshome/ci3516762 Most growers say 26F. for four hours could be a killer of blossoms. Snow was reported sticking in the almond groves around Oceano. Most growers say it will take two weeks to know the extent of the blossom damage (but they should know before the hives come out). Beekeepers without signed contracts tell me the last time this happened they had trouble collecting fees. Beekeepers fear some growers will not pay for pollination if they know they will get a very poor crop. Some growers thing a poor crop will drive the price back up( the wholesale price for almonds dropped again last week). Beekeepers are very worried for the almond industry and have expressed their concerns to me . I might add for those reading the information at the site that Dan Cummings was the almond industry spokesman at the American Beekeeping Federation meeting and Dan said nothing about a stepped up grading system. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 12:23:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herve Abeille Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:30:20 -0500, Eric Brown wrote: >As an aside, I don’t mean to dispute Bill’s statement that tests of organic >and non-organic honey have shown no differences at all, but I don’t think >we should limit our definition of quality to what we can prove in a lab. >All this to say that it’s in this holistic sense that I say the quality of Brian’s honey is better. I am sorry but I simply cannot let this pass. To say that one man's honey is better, is to say that another's is worse. I know many beekeepers selling honey in stores and at stands. They follow all the rules of conventional beekeeping. They use only approved chemicals in approved ways, they do not overheat their honey and have no way to filter it, even if they wanted to. These people are producing a product of excellent quality though it would be condemned by the so-called "organic" crowd. What is the problem? I have overheard people say "Oh, you shouldn't eat honey. It has chemicals in it". Honey is still a wonderful product that is relatively free of pesticide residues, especially compared to the fruit and vegetables we eat every day. I am no fool and I know we depend too much on pesticides, but misinformation does nobody any good. If people want to pay extra and feel good about products produced under rigorous specifications, that is their prerogative. But why do we need to create a false sense of superiority by disparaging our neighbors? Herve -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 09:48:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Pollen traps Comments: To: deealusby1@aol.com In-Reply-To: <004101c634e8$86eeece0$de9c453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor writes: I think if you were to check now there are MRL's in place for some bee products and I think pollen is one. Reply: Right now, from my sources with those we deal with, there is an MRL for honey that will go into effect in Japan at the end of May 2006 at 300 ppb. If bee pollen and propolis can't successfully hitchhike onto the honey MRL, and paperwork filing has to be done with the Japanese ministry to initiate the process, it will be the first step in a process that will take at least 2 years from my understanding. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/0rganicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 10:58:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: What Honey is Worth? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Howard Kogan wrote: My honey costs (everything considered)probably twice the $4.00/lb I sell it for. Howard, Do I understand that you sell your honey for $4.00 a pound and that you are loosing money selling it at that price? If so, it doesn't bode well for me as that is generally the price I sell my honey for. Mike in LA (Lower Alabama) --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 14:12:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 12:23:56 -0500, Herve Abeille wrote: >I am sorry but I simply cannot let this pass. To say that one man's honey is >better, is to say that another's is worse. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point, but it sounds like you're saying that almost all honey is the same, that there's no qualitative difference between the honey or between the practices of most beekeepers, that nothing we do as beekeepers -- so long as there isn't legislation passed against the practice (in our jurisdiction) -- makes any qualitative difference. If that is what you're saying, I don't know what to say in response except that I completely disagree. I definitely don't want to discriminate against local producers in favor of honey of far-away or unknown origins that uses the "right" buzzwords, but I'm certainly not going to deny that there are values and costs and benefits and risks to all the things we do as beekeepers. Incidentally, there's a major brand of honey in "health food" stores that advertises itself as "pesticide free." Come to find out, in this particular case, the beekeepers that produce this honey are not restricted by that claim from using any pesticides at all. Anybody else find that deceptive? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 11:29:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: Re: ALMONDS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good morning Bob H. =20 Dan Cummings you mention, he runs four thousand acres of almonds & is = co-owner of a nine thousand hive outfit in Orland, CA. Dan is helping our industry like no other. Dan writes many articles = favoring the bee industry and telling the obstacles we all face.Yes, he = is an ALMOND GROWER. I have been accused of taking the growers side of things, that could = not be further from the truth. There will be a far greater number of = sub-standard bees being rented and paid full price for, than a hand full = that don't get paid at all. I will bring in over a quarter million = dollars in revenue this spring from these growers, I support my family = with this revenue, and do not like the bashing of the growers. This year the almond industry gave over seven hundred thousand = dollars for mite research. A few question for pollinators; Do you know how warm it needs to be for the flower to be receptive for = pollination, (just because the bees are there does not mean it's = receptive)? Do you know what the Calif. State apiary inspector calls a pollinating = hive (# of frames)? P.S. It's something I have a little knowledge in. Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 14:59:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Pesticide-free honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Discussing a label that says 'pesticide free', Eric said "Come to find out, in this particular case, the beekeepers that produce this honey are not restricted by that claim from using any pesticides at all. Anybody else find that deceptive?" I think you are talking about the brand Really Raw Honey. A couple of matters, (1) they produce no honey. In fact, they do not even pack any honey. They are strickly marketers, and pretty good ones at that. (2) They contract with several beekeepers to produce and pack the honey. From those beekeepers I know, they annually test samples of the honey for severa= l antibiotic and pesticide contaminates. I presume they do the same with all of their contractors. I also find the statement 'pesticide free' remarkable, but not necessarily deceptive. IMHO, the real question is do they do enough of a test on each producer to warrant such a label statement? Dunno. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 18:13:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herve Abeille Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 14:12:58 -0500, Eric Brown wrote: >Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point, but it sounds like you're saying >that almost all honey is the same, that there's no qualitative difference >between the honey or between the practices of most beekeepers Was I really that unclear? You ARE misunderstanding my point. I always try to be clear, but also brief. I am NOT talking AT ALL about supermarket honey that's been over-heated, over-filtered, blended and ruined. I am talking about beekeepers that produce and market their own honey, many of whom I know. They produce a very good quality product and it pains me no end to hear people say their honey is inferior to so-called "organic" honey. Look, there is simply no real proof that "organic" honey is any better than regular honey. BUT if people want to buy it for whatever reason, I have no problem with that! Use it as a selling point, that's fair! My point is simple: Why can't you sell your honey without saying your neighbor's honey is crap? Especially when he is following all the rules, which are designed to ensure that honey is not contaminated. If you want to say you don't treat your bees with chemicals, fine. But it is simply untrue and unfair to say that beekeepers who are using chemicals according to the label, are producing an inferior product. The market for organic food is limited, so most producers aim for the regular market. There are laws to keep the food supply safe. Most of us are doing the best we can. We ALL try to avoid dangerous chemicals! There is simply no good reason to persuade customers that non-"organic" food is poisonous. People the world over eat it their whole lives and live to be 80 & 90 years old. Herve -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 14:18:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: What Honey is Worth? In-Reply-To: <20060219185849.8646.qmail@web53411.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Howard, Are you serious? It costs you $8.00/lb to produce your honey? You expect us to believe that you are loosing $4.00/lb on every lb of honey you sell? Seems to me youm need to sell more honey. You really need to learn from my watermelon selling friends who bought watermelons for $1.00 each and took them up north to NY City and sold them for $1.00. When they figured out that they weren't making any money they decided that they needed a bigger truck. I don't know for sure what it costs me to produce a lb of honey. I think it costs me between .75 and .95/lb. But that is just a guess. GM and Ford don't know what it costs to produce one car either, so I don't feel too bad. Mark Howard Kogan wrote: My honey costs (everything considered)probably twice the $4.00/lb I sell it for. --------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 19:34:01 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: USDA Bee Lab Funding Bob reported in his message "KHPA & MBA joint state meeting": > ...Quote American Beekeeping Federation flyer: > "The purpose of the flyer is to raise money to save the bee > lab funding which the Bush administration is wanting to cut." Sadly, the ABF's track record in the area of actual tangible results from their "lobbying" in support of what they think are beekeeping priorities is about what one would expect for a Tupperware party organized by anarchists. Your money may be much better spent sending your own letters to your own congresscritters with your own stamps, and supporting the Bee Labs one beekeeper at a time, one fax at a time, one letter at a time. Numbers DO matter in such things, and if every 10th beekeeper merely sent one postcard, this would be MUCH more effective than the comic-opera posturing of self-proclaimed representative organizations of beekeepers, each with memberships in the less-than-1% range, each presuming and claiming to represent 100% of US beekeepers, both constantly droning on with the same laughable claim about how "honey bee pollination is worth billions to the economy". Perhaps if someday the ABF and the AHPA could learn to play nice with at least each other, they might each demonstrate the organizational maturity to present a cohesive united front on some issue, and thereby be taken seriously by elected representatives. I'm not going to hold my breath. On a more specific level, it would be unreasonable to expect the Bee Labs to escape an across-the-board USDA-ARS cut, as it should be clear that when the 2002 farm bill was written, the nation had a budget surplus left over from the Clinton years and a strong economy, which was how a $73 billion increase appeared in the 2002 farm bill. By 2007, the budget situation will be much, much, worse - the country is facing a deficit of $350 billion to $400 billion. Clearly, it will be difficult to maintain the current level of overall USDA funding. The trade deficit is so bad, that the administration is resorting to talking about the "Capital Account Surplus", which is a real knee- slapper to those of us who know one end of a sharp pencil from the other. http://maxspeak.org/mt/archives/002001.html Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid consume nearly all of mandatory federal spending. The entire USDA budget is only 1 percent of the total federal budget. The Bee Labs are such a tiny percentage of the USDA budget, that the "threat to the Bee Labs" last time around was cured in "mark up" process without even any discussion, where Congress simply declined to agree with the suggestions of the Bush administration in regard to funding. Congress has that right, and the President can either sign the bill as a whole, or attempt to veto the bill as a whole, Food Stamps and ADC included. All the White House has done is attempt to eliminate all "earmarked" items, those items funded by Congress that were not first suggested by the last White House proposed budget. Their thinking seems to be that if the White House did not suggest it, it has to be "pure pork", which is clearly not the case in every case. In fact, several congresscritters have already gone on record to promise that they will "hold the line" on USDA funding, despite the effort of the "Unitary Executive Branch". http://westernfarmpress.com/news/2-15-06-Bush-budget-for-agriculture/ "Senate Agriculture Committee Chairman Saxby Chambliss, who led efforts to rebuff similar administration proposals for cutting the agriculture budget in 2005, said he expected Congress to reject them again.... Democrats were quick to call the president's proposals 'full of gimmicks and low on common sense', as Rep. Collin Peterson, ranking member of the House Agriculture Committee said. 'The plan does nothing to address escalating federal spending or this administration's unending record of deficits', he said. 'For agriculture, at best, this budget is a rehash of the president's strategy of sacrificing farm support for a sell-at-any-cost international trade policy.' 'Federal budget deficits adversely impact the entire American economy and efforts to address deficits should strive for equity in sharing the pain of adjustment', Eastland said. 'Spending on commodity and conservation agriculture programs account for less than 1.5 percent of total mandatory spending, yet commodity programs are being asked to shoulder more than 8 percent of required reductions. Agriculture should not be singled out or asked for greater sacrifice than other federal departments.'..." In the specific case of the USDA ARS, the sole "problem" the Bush administration notes is that Congress dares to use "earmark" budget requests to fund research programs not overtly favored by the Bush administration, no big surprise given that the "science policies" of the current gang in possession includes referring to the "Big Bang" as the "Big Bang THEORY". :) The proposed White House Budget includes the following about the USDA ARS: http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/expectmore/detail.10002004.2005.html "Even though ARS has a strong internal merit review process, as shown in the following write up, the answer received a 'no' because a portion of the projects are appropriated through Congressional earmarks that allocate the funding by purpose and to specific locations." http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/expectmore/summary.10002004.2005.html "We are taking the following actions to improve the performance of the program: * Discontinuing funding proposal for unrequested projects enacted in prior years. * Modifying the long term measures to show the actual use of research outputs (discoveries and new technologies) rather than just the number developed." So, if the proposed budget cuts Bee Lab funding, all we have to do is point out that pollination and bee research are mission-critical to the highly touted "Food & Agriculture Defense Initiative", 'cause you can't "defend" what you can't grow in the first place. To contrast with the nearly perfect evaluation of the USDA ARS, look at what the White House has to say about the USDA Marketing programs, including the Honey Board: http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/expectmore/detail.10003001.2005.html http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/expectmore/summary.10003001.2005.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 17:35:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: ALMONDS In-Reply-To: <004601c63582$7a0052e0$51e0f7a5@hrgmy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "CN honey@jps.net" wrote:A few question for pollinators; Do you know ..... ? Do you know ......? P.S. It's something I have a little knowledge in. Keith Jarrett Keith, I don't know. Educate me. What would I, as a prospective pollinator, need to know in order to have my bees at the level expected by the almond growers? What has been provided, and accepted, in the past and what is now expected? What is the difference? Mike in LA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 20:17:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Re: USDA Bee Lab Funding In-Reply-To: <005c01c635b5$58cb50b0$03fca8c0@gollum> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > Your money may be much better spent sending your own > letters to your own congresscritters with your own stamps, Do you have an indication that actual US Postal letters are more effective than contacting congresscritters electronically? It's very easy these days to locate your senator/representative using http:// www.senate.gov/ and http://www.house.gov/ and to send them your opinion electronically. These sites also contain mailing addresses, telephone numbers, and FAX numbers. If I thought that traditional mail was more effective, I'd use it . . . but I'd like to think that it doesn't matter which actual delivery mechanism I use. The cynic in me says that it won't matter . . . but the realist says that the only way to be sure not to have any effect is to do nothing. I'd just like to maximize the return on my time, and if that means licking stamps, so be it. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 21:14:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: ALMONDS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith, >Dan is helping our industry like no other. Dan writes many articles favoring the bee industry and telling the obstacles we all face. Surely your not serious> I replayed the tape of Dan's talk at the ABF meeting. He left out all the obstacles faced this year! He did say $150 a hive and send all the hives as still would not fill the need. > than a hand full that don't get paid at all. You still don't get the picture. I am about to quit trying to help you understand the issue. Acres of empty boxes sit waiting to be trucked home from combining. Thousand of hives sit unrented. Out of state beekeepers trusted the almond industry and all feel they got burned. Their story to the last beekeeper. I have talked to two which are bankrupt without funds to get the hives back home. Your story is they should have been psychic and known better than to send the same hives California Almond growers have been buying for years. Should have been psychic and seen that the inspection crews of certain brokers would grade a hive with ten frames as five. Six frames as three! News from our meeting today! The Midwest beekeepers which went to California said to tell you they can get you some pollination contacts in the Midwest with some grower friends of theirs Keith! They can use all the hives you can send. They need a ten frame average in April. Midwest beekeepers which had problems in California this year will do the grading for the growers. Your big chance to get richer than you are. $150 a hive! Send all your hives. > This year the almond industry gave over seven hundred thousand dollars for mite research. We had our meeting of the Midwestern Beekeepers today. None of the guys which went to California has any money left to help the almond growers but as a good will gesture they decided to send each almond grower a *large* box of Q tips to hand pollinate their groves with next season. Don't kill the messenger Keith! They made me promise I would pass on the message when I showed them some of your emails! They said if I didn't pass on the message they wouldn't let me in on the fructose tanker next week. My bees need feed. What could I do? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 23:49:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 19-Feb-06, at 6:13 PM, Herve Abeille wrote: > My point is simple: Why can't you sell your honey without saying your > neighbor's honey is crap? Especially when he is following all the > rules, > which are designed to ensure that honey is not contaminated. Hi Herve and all My neighbour is a large beekeeper(500 hives not organic). I am small (16 hives not organic). He sells his honey in barrels for less than $1 per pound. I sell mine retail for over $4 per pound to people who drive out into the country to get fresh pure produce. He uses fume boards, I use bee escapes. We both follow the rules, but my honey has no residuals of fume board chemicals. Is my honey not better (every thing else being equal)? His honey is blended with foreign honey and sold in the supermarket for roughly the same price as mine. There are many reasons why some people will go out of their way to buy local produce, why not give them what they want. I know it is simplistic of me to say that my neighbour could produce the same income with 25% of his hives if he sold it in my market, but that market is driving past his lane to get to mine. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 21:09:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: African genetics In-Reply-To: <20060218020133.90080.qmail@web53405.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chuck Norton Writes: ... splits at the end of the season...are... Russian roulette ... beekeeping. Reply: Not so. This is one of the best ways for acclimitizing honeybees to fit ones local/regional area. Further,where is the Smith or Alley methods faster time wise? Please explain you rational more, as I see this taking longer then normal field fall divides using strong colonies and also less work. In addition, please explain what is meant by superior queens as many see queens in different ways? If you mean bought queens, then I myself see inferior queens for ones own area, unless strict matching to ones local area is done. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 00:17:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: USDA Bee Lab Funding > Do you have an indication that actual US Postal letters > are more effective than contacting congresscritters > electronically? Short Answer: ------------- Yes. Without a doubt. Fer sure. The Bee Labs are worth a stamp. 'Nuff said. Slightly More Humorous Answer: ----------------------------- Well, what do YOU think, given that the current President said, in his second Presidential debate in 2004: "I hear there's rumors on the, uh, internets..." Clearly, politicians are not as hip and kewl as you and I, don't instant message their kids to call them for dinner, and have no idea that their cell phones can pull up web pages. So, communicate with them in a manner that they are comfortable with if you want to influence them. Recall that the annual Budget of the USA itself is several inches thick, printed in toxic chemicals on compressed dead trees and distributed to thousands of people who will never even open it. So, your tax dollars are wasted just to document how your tax dollars are going being wasted. Clearly, they like paper. More Serious And Much Longer Answer: ------------------------------------ I know a few congresscritters. They stop by at Farmageddon for coffee, my wife's locally-famous baked goods, and the maximum donations allowed by law, so I hear more than a little about their technological assets from their rants and whines about "the office" and "the computers". (Not that I help them much, I'm not into computers being used for mere administrivia.) Now that the hardware and procedures are in place to quickly process all mail and keep anthrax (both the disease http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/anthrax_g.htm and the rock band http://anthrax.com , I am told) out of the Capitol, we are back to the "normal" status of best influencing elected officials through the use of paper. Yes, paper. Compressed dead trees painted with toxic petrochemical byproducts, cheerily hand-carried by quaintly dressed civil servants who are civil in the extreme from any address in the country to any other address in the country for one flat price. Better yet, HAND-WRITTEN letters on paper, not even typed. Best of all, letters showing actual style and panache in penmanship, so get a female to do the writing for you in fountain pen. While every elected official LOVES e-mail, and many encourage constituents to use e-mail, they like it because it allows them to run software auto-responders that scan your e-mail for keywords, and e-mail you back a canned "thoughtful" response that you might think was a personal reply. Thus, using e-mail permits them to ignore you and your request while still seeming "responsive". Another problem with e-mail is "astro-turf", the inciting of an organized group to "e-mail your representative" with thousands of amazingly similarly-worded messages, created by some web site somewhere with little more than contact information added by those who participate. Any significant e-mail "count" on a specific issue runs the risk of being dismissed as "astro-turf", the work of a special-interest group rather than individual concerned voting consituents. Paper on the other hand, postcards, letters, faxes, whatever, are impossible to ignore. If it is mail from a constituent, it requires a reply by mail (unless you are foolish enough to include your e-mail address on the paper communication, which means that you will be certain to get a "canned" e-mail response). People have to handle and process paper. It MEANS more. Staff members NOTICE paper mail, and will call the congresscritter's attention to it more readily. Anyone can hit "send", but how many are willing to go find a stamp any more? Answer: people who really, truly care, and expect their elected representatives to not just care, but to deliver. You can't flood an office with e-mail, the bits just go onto a disc drive somewhere. You CAN flood an office with paper. You really oughta wanna. So, if you want to support something near and dear to your heart like the Bee Labs, the better tool is a simple postcard. No "security problem" at all, and the small space forces you to keep your message brief and to the point. But one postcard won't do, you need a buncha folks to send postcards. Like all in the same week. To the same guys. Like the Chairman of the House Agriculture Committee, Bob Goodlatte of Roanoke, VA and Ranking Minority Member Collin Peterson of MN (hint, hint). And don't forget to also send one to YOUR congressperson, the one that represents YOUR district, no matter where you live. Now, if you still have a fax machine, those are so retro, they would be cool if they were being retro on purpose or in an ironic way. But if the pen is mightier than the sword, and a picture is worth a thousand words, then if follows that the fax machine is truly the ultimate weapon, so fax them into submission! Fax your request along with a picture of you standing in one of your apiaries. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 09:10:22 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: <8B18DED9-670C-43D6-BE1E-10174AC38EA9@interlog.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <8B18DED9-670C-43D6-BE1E-10174AC38EA9@interlog.com>, bob darrell writes >He uses fume boards, I use bee escapes. We both follow the rules, but >my honey has no residuals of fume board chemicals Can you state definitively that his honey has such residues? Got the test results? OK yours cannot have any, but sure his has it? > Is my honey not better (every thing else being equal)? Probably not, almost certainly just the same, or at least very similar. Not discernably different from his in an 'off the extractor' condition. What happens thereafter is down to the handler and his methods and hygiene. >His honey is blended with foreign honey and sold in the supermarket >for roughly the same price as mine. Again...do you KNOW this. Forget all the tittle tattle and sneery asides and anecdotes about packers. If they have a pure Canadian label on the honey it most likely is.........and at the very least they will have an audit trail and paperwork in place that can prove it in a court. Irrespective of your opinion of their ethics, they will have paperwork in place to rebuff your allegation. Do you if it was done back to you? > There are many reasons why some people will go out of their way to >buy local produce, why not give them what they want. Of course. I have a customer who works from a little cottage beside a waterfall. They sell a heap of honey every season. People travel for 100 miles and more to buy it. They pay through the nose for it too. Two shops in the local village they pass through to get there are also customers of mine. There the honey is 25% cheaper. These customers drive past those shops to get it from the 'folk at the little cottage'. Its the best honey they can get anywhere, so much better than the mass produced stuff they can get in the shops. Its the same honey. Exactly the same, more often than not even the same batch, and the only difference is that they buy it unlabelled and stick their own name on it. Differences are 90% perception and 10% fact in many cases. But these very perceptions are your marketing tool. But do it without sullying other peoples products unless you have real proof that it is so. > I know it is simplistic of me to say that my neighbour could produce >the same income with 25% of his hives if he sold it in my market, but >that market is driving past his lane to get to mine. Perceptions again, use it to your advantage. There is nothing wrong with selling in barrels though. I basically abandoned my brand to sell in bulk instead. The price per pound went down a good bit......but the profit went way up. Reasons are many and all have to be taken into account when deciding viability and pricing of jarred product. 1. The cost of the actual packaging itself 2. The cost of the labour in getting it to that stage 3. The cost of taking time to give these people the individual attention they often need, and it can be a lot. 4. Delivery costs, including time and motor expenses if you sell any to local shops or at farmers markets. 5. Time and stall costs at the markets. And the most forgotten biggy........... The amount of production lost through not being attentive to the main job (basic production and hive management) while you chase these few extra bucks. I have a friend does farmers markets. He takes about 600 GBP every good market (USD 1000 or so), but many are less, sometimes much less. He thinks this is good money.........but The stand costs him 50 pounds It costs at least 20 pounds to go there He takes 8 hours or more out of his day Packaging the honey costs about 100 pounds motoring costs about 20 pounds So, not including the time it costs him on average 190 pounds per market. Add in a few unaccounted for odds and ends (and there are always some) you arrive at 200 pounds of costs, so he sold the honey for 400 pounds really. He could have taken that much selling it to a couple of shops. Once the costs are taken out, it turns out that I get only about 50 pounds less than him for the same volume of honey in barrels. And I don't have to filter it, seed it, pack it, label it, spend time on it, talk to customers, work hard for my extra buck, deliver it, wait all season to get all my money back in..........the list is long. And it gives me an extra day a week at the bees over the key May to July period when the die is cast for the year. That lets me run a fair slice of extra colonies, and the production they have would not happen if I was doing all that stuff, so it is a serious economic consideration, and you are not doing your sums properly unless you take it into account. So don't confuse top line price with bottom line profit, there is often only a passing correlation. OK, when price are in their current trough you have a point about profitability against your neighbour, but not so long ago it was 2 bucks in bulk, and prices are gently on the up again. I would rather have his 2 bucks in bulk than your 4 bucks in jars with its attendant costs and hassles. btw you cannot harangue your neighbour for his honey being blended with foreign even if it is at the packer. His title to the honey ends when he sells the barrels and takes the cheque, and so does his responsibility for any subsequent things done to it. The economics at amateur level are of course altogether different, and pleasure is in fact a harvest in itself. Labour and motor costs are rarely thought of, and lost production is not even on the horizon because they have X hives and do not want to run more anyway. But dont put the knife into a professional because he does things differently and under the influence of different stimuli. Remember that he only makes a living by doing it as well as he can. The house depends on it. I hear so many sneering remarks about professionals as if they are some lesser breed, yet they HAVE to give the customer what they want or they wither and die, so they have an economic imperative to do what is best. Amateurs are under no such pressures, and the result is that professionals for the most part produce good middle of the road honey with a sound reliable market, and some excell at it.........but the two extremes, the very best and the very worst are generally the preserve of the amateur. Bad professional beekeepers tend not to hang around long, bad amateurs can be there for a lifetime. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:24:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Re: USDA Bee Lab Funding In-Reply-To: <000001c635dc$feb156b0$03fca8c0@gollum> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: Clearly, they like paper. Sorry, but I am going to hold you to the same standard to which you hold others. I asked if you had "any indication" that paper letters are more effective than electronic communication. I, too, could have speculated that the non-tech-savvy politicians would be more impressed by a traditional postal letter. But it would have been speculation, just like you provided. Do you really think that the actual politician sees the actual piece of paper that you stuff into an envelope? Their staff processes the feedback from their constituency and provides a summary to the politician. So the fact that politicians are "not as hip and kewl as you" is not the issue. The question is whether their staff gives more weight to actual paper letters, versus feedback provided via the web. I don't know the answer to that (which is what prompted my original post to the list), but my speculation is that a comment delivered electronically is just as effective as one delivered in a paper envelope. It's not even speculation to state that a comment delivered electronically is more effective than the good intention of composing a letter, putting it in an envelope, and sending it. What I'm saying is that rather than asking people to get out the envelope and stamp, it makes more sense to give them the web site and ask them to contact the congresscritters that way. I believe that ten electronic comments are more effective than one paper letter, and that it's ten times as likely that people will use the web than lick a stamp. Argue with "ten" if you wish; I still think that the potential for getting comments in the hands of our representatives is higher using "hip and kewl" methods. It's easy to find your senators and representative, but harder to know who are the other appropriate targets for comment. I assume that the funding decisions for USDA-related projects are essentially made by committee(s), but I don't know which one(s). Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I of the workings in DC could suggest specific individuals to target. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:45:55 -0500 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: USDA Bee Lab Funding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For James Fischer, I would like to personally thank you for your thoughtful and well informed post on the Bee Lab Funding and would just like to let you know that I had been in preparations for submitting the information regarding such but due to In-laws being here for the weekend and working on a newsletter just didn't have the time to get it going. I am glad those circumstances prevented my composition as I could not have handled this subject in as thorough a manner and followed up with your answers as eloquently with the real facts and substantiated information as you have. Thank you! I have had a genuine appreciation for your feelings regarding the above comment and for 8 - 10 years opted to sit and listen to the animosity, accusations, and rhetoric that was flying around and chose to not be a part of either association for a lack of an ability to fairly judge, due to my own ignorance, what group to be a part of. I do feel that if this industry is to survive, we have to play the game that has been laid out before us by our legislative congresscritters, lobbyists and the eschalon of empowered elite that require a constant feeding of our well earned dollars in order to make the wheels turn. We might accurately describe this bunch as grubs that grow fat with the constant attention of those with interests and the bribes to fuel their approval. In any event, that is our system and to get anything done we have to be nurse bees and hope we have the means for providing enough bee bread to inniate a positive response. About five years ago, I decided that this business was where I wanted to spend my efforts for my remaining years after selling my pest control business (yes, I made far more money killing bees) and enjoy my toil and sweat as it was the first thing I've done in my life that I had a genuine passion for. I knew that if I sat and watched on the sidelines for another 8 - 10 years and did nothing that my hopes for "living in my bliss" would be imperiled and I'd have no justification for complaining having provided no efforts whatsoever to avoid the grim reapers call for yet another american industrys date with demise. I still remain skeptical and yet hopefully positive that we might arrest the continual downward course our industry is in and it will take many people like yourself to avoid the future that awaits us if we choose to do nothing. It was because of this that I became involved with the ABF and did so after talking with friends from the AHPA that really indicated that in regards to educating the novice beekeeper I had made the correct decision as the AHPA is focused on the commercial producer. Which brings me to the crux of the matter of my ramblings here. I really feel, as you do also, that we need to at least work together and I would tell you that both boards of the two groups are better attuned to this need to at least attempt to work together in a spirit of cooperation. About five years ago, I decided that this business was where I wanted to spend my efforts for my remaining years after selling my pest control business (yes, I made far more money killing bees) and enjoy ! my toil and sweat as it was the first thing I've done in my life that I had a genuine passion for. I still remain skeptical and yet hopefully positive that we might arrest the continual downward course our industry is in and it will take many people like yourself to avoid the future that awaits us if we choose to do nothing. It was because of this that I became involved with the ABF and did so after talking with friends from the AHPA that really indicated that in regards to educating the novice beekeeper I had made the correct decision as the AHPA is focused on the commercial producer. Which brings me to the crux of the matter of my ramblings here. I really feel, as you do also, that we need to at least work together and I would tell you that both boards of the two groups are truely of the same mind. I have spent hundreds of hours talking with members in regard to the need for unifying legislative, educational and promotional efforts in hopes of eliminating a duplication and waste of those dollars spent for such. We are too small an industry to waste a single dime.! As a member of the board of the ABF, I have made this my primary iniative for the direction of my time and will continue to do so as long as I am a member. As such, I introduced a resolution for a Common Meeting Site for a 2008 Convention Committee with representatives from both Associations. This resolution was also introduced at the AHPA business meeting and was passed with a few ( was informed less than 10) objections. It was passed unanimously by those present at the ABF general meeting. While this does little to resolve many of the ills that have been plaguing our industry, it is a start and a modest beginning for working on a common platform. It is hoped that the meeting will take place in Sacramento and it will, if those of us supporting it work hard, be at least a portal for future common efforts. It will only be successfull if the many who have sat undecided on the sidelines become involved and "make it so". While the problems that face our country are decidedly gargantuan in proportion, and the macro-economic trends that are in place will present many challenges for us all, we have to at least make an effort to minimize the negative forces that are slowly devouring us. Yes, there are times when it is easier to do nothing and avoid the risk of the ridicule of those uninvolved but then we are nothing but slaves to the system. "How much easier our work would be if we put forth as much effort trying to improve the quality of it as most of us do trying to find excuses for not properly attending to it." George W. Ballinger Thanks again for your excellent information and would hope that all take the time to send a hand written letter to our "congresscritters" to assist in this important topic. Tim Tucker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 11:13:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron Bogansky Subject: Quality Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello everyone, “Wine - A beverage made of the fermented juice of any of various kinds of grapes, usually containing from 10 to 15 percent alcohol by volume.” I guess this definition covers most of the wine that is sold today. Given this, why when I go to the Liquor Store (PA does not permit sales of alcoholic beverages in grocery stores) should I not purchase the biggest and cheapest bottle I can find? It’s all the same, right? “Honey - A sweet yellowish or brownish viscid fluid produced by various bees from the nectar of flowers and used as food.” This is a basic dictionary definition of honey. I would venture a guess that 95% of the global honey crop will fall into that definition. Again, why would I not buy the biggest and cheapest jar I can find? It’s all the same, right? Much to the disappointment of the true connoisseur, there are individuals who will answer yes to all the above questions and they are quite happy knowing they got a good price. However, there are also a great number of individuals who would strongly disagree and do so every day by paying more for one type of wine/honey over another. It is a matter of “taste”, and QUALITY of the product. I totally agree with others on this list (Bill’s post should be placed in the special archives) that the Organic Honey label is quite misleading. You cannot use standards for one part of agriculture and try to equally apply them to another. I think a lot of it is, as Bob said, “all about the money”. I really don’t want to debate the organic argument. My point is about the quality of the honey we put in the jar and how it should be valued. I believe that, just like wine, there can be a great difference in the honey on the shelf and it should be priced accordingly. If a beekeeper works for one floral variety of honey, and keeps it as separated as possible from other varieties, and keeps the processing to a minimal, he/she can end up with a product that tastes different than something mass produced. If consumers agree, they will pay more for it, as they should. I am really bothered by someone marketing honey using some buzz words, (organic, raw, unheated), knowing full well it all comes from the same process as the stuff they sell to the packers. That is truly about the money. Quality honey should be something we all strive to produce. Some beekeepers are really into honey contests. For some it is fun to compete, but I don’t usually enter them for the same reason I am not into beauty pageants or showing animals. The competition is fun, but in most cases it is not real world. It is the best of the best and there is merit there and again it is fun to compete. I think a more realistic contest would be for the judges to get samples of whatever is being judged by buying them unannounced. Then if you win it really says something about your product. What you put up for sale is truly the “best of the best”. Comb honey is the way honey should be eaten. Obviously, most consumers don’t want it that way so it is extracted and put in a jar. In a lot of cases the honey that finally ends up in the jar is significantly different from where it started in the comb. It’s been spun out, heated, filtered and blended with other honey. I am not saying this is bad, just different. Some folks will argue there is no difference. Maybe, but it does not really matter because there consumers at every level. What I am really opposed to is someone trashing the other guy’s product. If I think I have a better product I tell the customer what is good about my honey not what is wrong with someone else’s. Consumers are fickle. They want, what they want, when they want it. The farmer’s market where I sell my honey is run by the State Dept of Ag. It is advertised as having PA farmers. Yet there is at least one complaint every week because no one is selling bananas. I have folks who buy unheated honey from me and then use it for baking, or tell me they put it in the microwave when it crystallizes, yet they still insist on unheated honey. The best one happened a few weeks ago. I had a customer stop by the house to pick up some honey. They were not from the area and had purchased our honey during a festival in the Fall. People will return for something they like. However, they were really disappointed because we don’t live in a hundred year old farm house and my wife is not a “little old lady”. They came right out and said this. I think we have to strive to put out a quality product, be honest in what we say we are selling, and don’t try to make your product better by trashing another beekeeper’s product. Just give the facts and let the consumer be the judge. Ron Ron Bogansky Kutztown, PA _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:16:26 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=E3o=20Campos?= Subject: Re: African genetics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chuck Norton said: > My response: Dr. Tom Rinderer (...) advised that the practice of > scheduled requeening with European stock is imperative to the > handling of honeybees in South and Central America and that > the practice of requeening in these countries with gentle > European stock is widely accepted and desirable. Maybe Dr. Rinderer was talking generically about South & Central America, meaning some countries, or most countries, not all. I can't speak for any other country, and I see no reason why at least some of them wouldn't do that. But, as I said before, no "widely use of European queens" happens in Brazil or have happened since some decades ago. I am in permanent touch with some hundreds of beekeepers of all levels and regions, so I can be pretty confident about what I'm saying. > Requeening with superior queens having highly desirable traits has > long been recognized as not only more profitable and enjoyable > beekeeping, No doubt about that. That's what probably most of the informed beekeepers do and advise here. But they (we) are a minor part. Let's put some things in perspective. First, think of bees vulnerabilities as a selective pressure on beekeepers. No one can keep disease-prone bees without information and appropriate care. AHB are much more tolerant to diseases and pests, and it means that AHB keepers are not "naturally selected" by their bees. If they do nothing, the bees will probably be there a year (or two, or three) later. If a colony dies from cold or absconds, it can be promptly replaced in the next season at no cost, with a simple bait. And the beekeeper can still take some honey out of their hives, although facing a much lower productivity than it could be possible (sometimes, low productivity is perfectly acceptable). Now think of Brazil's rural population. Few have access to good education, let alone libraries or Internet access. Many can barely write their names. But they can take some honey for their own needs and, often as an additional income (many sell honey along the roads, inside glass bottles, using corncobs as corks). Bees sometimes are kept in improvised wooden boxes with handmade frames, and the hygienic standards observed during the extraction are not exactly appropriate. They would probably make American "bee havers", as you call them, look like "master apiculturists". We don't have apiary inspection, not even apiary registration. How can all the beekeepers be well educated? It's impossible before many more social issues can be solved. Much has been done by public-private support institutions in the last years, but it's far from enough. But yes, there are a knowledgeable beekeepers too, and all levels of beekeepers between the two extremes. > My comments: The production of Brazilian propolis is a rapidly > growing industry due to the common practice in Asia of purchasing > Brazilian propolis, I've just learnt that the Brazilian market got a lot bigger in the last few years, and it's now the main buyer (~60%). Asia buys ~70% of all exported Brazilian propolis, and USA and Europe buy the rest. > It is my understanding that the Scutellata is not a very > productive propolis gatherer due to its very nature of being a > semitropical subspecies of A. mellifera and its tendency to > abscond. In fact, excessive propolis use has often been listed as an undesirable trait of AHB. My personal observation is that, like all other traits, this one is very variable, and, as I mention below, selection on that is totally feasible. As for the absconding tendency, I don't see it as an obstacle for propolis use. In the contrary, I see both traits as components of the (much talked about) defensiveness of AHB. (BTW, it's my very particular opinion that aggression is only another possible component of AHB defensiveness, and "defensive" is not the most specific and accurate adjective to express the tendency to overreact to disturbances. But that's another long and painful story). > I certainly would want to hear more about “this particular AHB selection”. I emailed José Alexandre de Abreu, a major Brazilian exporter of propolis to get updated about that. He told me that they have followed the directions pointed out by Brazilian studies on bee genetics/selection for propolis, carried out by researchers mainly from the Universities of Săo Paulo in Ribeirăo Preto, and Viçosa. They are using instrumental insemination to produce the breeder queens from the best producers among some 12,000 hives. There's a partnership on that, involving Abreu's company and his main propolis suppliers. The whole program has relied only in the established africanized bees since the start. The results so far are excellent, in Abreu's opinion. The best colonies are producing 1.4 kg (~3 lb) of propolis monthly, during the peak season, and 0.45 kg (1 lb) off season. A few colonies reach 2.5+ kg of propolis monthly in the peak, suggesting that further selections can still significantly improve the stock. The harvesting and handling of propolis has been greatly eased by the invention of new types of collectors. The most used today is the CPI model, which resembles a normal super, but has modified lateral walls. Each of these walls features a detachable piece of wood with a long, open groove, some 2 cm wide, in the center. The bees try to seal the groove and, when it's already well propolised, the whole wooden piece is taken out and replaced by an empty one. The propolis is then removed from the groove in the form of a strip. If it's hard to understand my description, there's a video on Brazilian propolis that may help on that and other issues: . > Propolis collection especially in Brazil may just become a steady > and desirable profit (...) with its own unique and varying > medicinal properties. (...) provide income for many in Third World > countries. Along with the research on selection for productivity, which directly affects the beekeeper, much research on propolis and its components has been done, especially in Brazil and Japan, which affects all the industry. According to Abreu, propolis is gradually losing its status of folk medicine because of all those researches and by the adoption of WHO protocols in the tests. Best regards, Joăo Campos _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 11:35:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: <001601c634af$3eb5a290$03fca8c0@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > There are several "USDA Organic" > honey producers in Hawaii. (snipped on of them) > http://www.volcanoislandhoney.com/ > There are more. > Clearly, the standards can be "met" to one extent > or the other, or perhaps the certification entities > in Hawaii are reading the more draconian sections of > the regulations in a slightly less-strict way, I dunno. Jim, Always great to see your posts. I looked at one site and all I saw concerning them meeting organic standards was: "To maintain Kiawe honey's wonderful taste, texture and nutritional qualities Rare Hawaiian Organic White Honey is offered in its pure, natural state - unfiltered and with no heat ever applied to it. The collection and extraction process is accomplished organically, using no poisons, chemicals or additives. Rare Hawaiian Organic White Honey is as close to its natural state as possible except that it is in a jar." I lived in Hawaii and met my wife there. My oldest son lives there also with hundreds of relatives, so we visit yearly. They are getting their Honey from Kiawe trees so there is a strong possibility that they do not meet the proposed organic separation standards nor purity of organic forage. But they do meet the USDA label standards for organic, and so do I. To be able to label your product USDA Organic you need meet the following: Farmers who gross less than $5000 from organic products and sell direct to consumers or retailers are exempt from the certification requirement. Those farmers may call their product organic, but they can't use the new USDA seal. To get the USDA seal, the regulations condensed down are : * prohibit the use of irradiation, sewage sludge, or genetically modified organisms in organic production; * reflect NOSB recommendations concerning items on the national list of allowed synthetic and prohibited natural substances; * prohibit antibiotics in organic meat and poultry; and * require 100% organic feed for organic livestock. The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) approved four categories of organic labels, based on the percentage of organic content. The organic labels began to appear on store shelves on October 21, 2002: 1. 100 Percent Organic - may carry USDA Organic Seal 2. Organic - at least 95% of content is organic by weight (excluding water and salt) and may carry the USDA Organic Seal. 3. Made With Organic - at least 70% of content is organic and the front product panel may display the phrase "Made with Organic" followed by up to three specific ingredients. (May not display new USDA Organic seal) 4. Less than 70 % of content is organic and may list only those ingredients that are organic on the ingredient panel with no mention of organic on the main panel. (May not display new USDA Organic seal)" So, from a technical point of view, it is not hard to get the USDA organic label on produce, especially honey. Which has caused the Organic movement much grief since their requirements are tougher for all produce. The USDA label standards are: http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/NOP/standards/LabelPre.html So I can see how the company links you provided can put "organic" on their labels. But if the standards for organic honey are approved as they currently stand, I doubt if they would be able to. Nor would most. I agree with your comments on HMF. The California beekeepers used much more colorful language than you. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:43:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: USDA Bee Lab Funding > I asked if you had "any indication" that paper letters > are more effective than electronic communication. I do. Much more than an "indication". It was the direct advice of the Chairman of the House Agriculture Committee, given in response to a direct question about the best approach for "grass-roots" influence to get his committee to act. I'm sorry if I did not make that crystal clear. > Do you really think that the actual politician sees the > actual piece of paper that you stuff into an envelope? No, as I explained, their staff does all that, but they do "count" and paper "counts for more". "Counts" are reported to the representative, and the more elegant and brief examples are often read by the representative if attached to the "count". That was direct advice, and is not speculation of any sort. > The question is whether their staff gives more weight to > actual paper letters, versus feedback provided via the web. As I reported, they do. > my speculation is that a comment delivered electronically > is just as effective as one delivered in a paper envelope. Fine! Do whatever you like, as it certainly is better than doing nothing. > What I'm saying is that rather than asking people to get > out the envelope and stamp, it makes more sense to give them > the web site and ask them to contact the congresscritters that way. As I said, there are drawbacks to taking that approach. I listed them. But it is certainly better than doing nothing. > It's easy to find your senators and representative, but harder to > know who are the other appropriate targets for comment. I gave the names of the specific congressmen who head the House Agriculture Committee, the exact best people to contact. (But ALSO contacting your own congressional representative is not to be forgotten, as he/she represents YOU.) > I assume that the funding decisions for USDA-related projects > are essentially made by committee(s), but I don't know which one(s). I do. The House Agriculture Committee as a whole handles the USDA budget. No need to worry about subcommittees on this issue, as the USDA budget is a "big deal". > Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I of the workings in DC > could suggest specific individuals to target. I think I may, and I did, and I'll do so again: 1) Chairman of the House Ag Committee, Bob Goodlatte of Roanoke, VA 2) Ranking Minority Member Collin Peterson of MN 3) Your state's Congresscritters. Every darn one of them. Look, if you can't find a stamp and an envelope, I understand. :) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:35:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: Pesticide-free honey On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 14:59:46 -0500, Lloyd Spear wrote: >From those beekeepers I know, they annually test samples of the honey for > several antibiotic and pesticide contaminates. > >I also find the statement 'pesticide free' remarkable, but not necessarily >deceptive. IMHO, the real question is do they do enough of a test on each >producer to warrant such a label statement? Dunno. Yes, Lloyd, thank you. That's the more complete story, exactly as I understand the matter, too. Perhaps I should have been more precise before, but my mind wasn't altogether on the subject. Thanks for filling in and clearing up what I neglected. I used the word deceptive for three reasons. First and most important, I'm pretty sure a majority of their customers are going to think "pesticide free" means "produced without the use of pesticides." If you use a phrase knowing that a majority of your customers will misunderstand it, then I find that deceptive. Secondly, there's your concern, Lloyd, that the testing may not be extensive enough, in terms of the numbers of jars/batches tested from each of their producers, to warrant the claim. Thirdly, there's the question of what they tested for, and I suspect there are potential contaminants they didn't test for, to say nothing of the ability of their testing methods to detect low levels of pesticides. But I also recognize that they're making really good money, and their customers, I'm sure, are plenty happy in their ignorance. I'm just not giving them my endorsement. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:22:50 -0600 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: USDA Bee Lab Funding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding Earlier post for James Fisher I don't know what happened with the duplication of an entire segment of the post but my computer does strange things at times and so does my server. Hope that you can read through the duplication. Tim Tucker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 15:04:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard Kogan Subject: $8.00 Honey Mark B. asks $8.00 to produce a lb of honey? Yes! I live on a small 'hobby farm' growing vegetables, plants, selling eggs and honey all to local folks. I do it because I love the lifestyle and I work long hours off the farm to be able to support it and all the usual expences. We are all organic and I have not treated any of my hives though I have certainly lost hives as a result. When I do I start again with a package, a nuc or a split. Their are all kinds of profit in what I do but not any finacial gain. You are absolutely correct that my problem is one of scale. If I produced more honey it would cost me less to produce. But that would feel a lot like a job and I have one of those already. I have a lot of respect as well as concern for commercial beekeepers-I don't know how you do it! I am certainly glad that I don't have to. My 'big' contribution to beekeeping is all the money I spend each year on supplies, books and magazines, and bees. my best, Howard -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 15:59:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe Subject: Re: $8.00 Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Mark B. asks $8.00 to produce a lb of honey? Yes! I, too, charge $8 a pint at a local fleamarket . I live in Brooklyn NY in an urban brownsone neighborhood and have only three hives on my roof. I sell it as a novelty item. (Brooklyn honey????!!!) and people are enchanted by it both before they try it and especially after they try it. It gets raves.I am a beekeeper strictly for love and used to sell it more cheaply, but when I discovered that Manhattan honey ("New York Rooftop Honey") was going for $8 the *1/2 pint* at a Manhattan greenmarket I decided to raise my rates. I am semi-retired and have small pension, so my honey business keeps me in pocket money. John Howe The Brooklyn Bee. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:20:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: $8.00 Honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit $8.00 U.S. or $8.00 Canadian? : ) You must be keepimng some really detailed records and accounting for your time at the same rate as your job pays. No? Mark Howard Kogan wrote: Mark B. asks $8.00 to produce a lb of honey? Yes! --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:54:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: more on almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob,=20 Being that my last posting did not make the cut, my wife says to try a = softer, more sensitive version to get my thoughts through. Concerning the keepers (without contracts) that had trouble collecting = fees by growers the last time there was a poor crop: Why would they go = back to California without a contract again??? I'm not saying that a = verbal agreement should be broken, but come on, shouldn't the beekeeper = who is making the same mistake twice take some of the blame??=20 As for the "should be psychic" keepers sending hives with ten frames and = being graded as five: Ever heard of " a second opinion", county or = private. They don't need to be physic, just smarter than the box of = bees. I would like to help with the Midwest pollination in April, but I'm = afraid I'm too busy shaking bees at that time. If what I hear is true, = many won't return, and supply and demand takes effect, then maybe next = year I can trade in my Porsches in for a Ferrari. Yours truly, Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 17:22:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: USDA Bee Lab Funding In-Reply-To: <000001c63645$2503b0c0$03fca8c0@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am with Jim totally on this. I also have worked with Congressional offices when I was in the Navy (Speaker of the House and Senators). Jim's correspondence pecking order is correct, with hand written letters at the top. Think of it as a measure of effort on your part, with the most effort getting the most attention. A hand written letter costs you something. It is personal. An email costs you nothing and is impersonal. However, I would qualify Jim's kind response concerning email. Email from outside the Senator's State or Representative's district will not be read. They have filters that discard them, mainly because they have been spammed by bulk emailing and protect themselves against it. So your email to a Committee Chair will probably not be read unless you are from the State or District. Another problem with emails is they get a lot of them from portals, where you can go and enter some info and the portal will send a scathing email to your representative. Problem is it has the same content of every one of the emails from that site, all exactly the same. The automat at the other end will reply with exactly the same reply to each. You may be counted but you may also be discounted because of the source. Basic to all this is you must identify yourself with a name and address. If there is none, your email is likely to be ignored. One other communications method not mentioned is a call. You can talk to staffies and most enjoy the conversation, especially if you know what you are talking about and can give the staffie information that enlightens him. I spoke to many of them and never had a problem, in fact, was thanked for info I gave them. Plus, you get fewer form letters back. You do not need to call DC, but it is best. Your Reps have local offices that will listen to you. You can even drop in and visit them. If you are original, you get noticed. If you use the standard form letters your group makes up you get a form letter back. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 16:43:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Re: USDA Bee Lab Funding In-Reply-To: <000001c63645$2503b0c0$03fca8c0@gollum> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Look, if you can't find a stamp and an envelope, I understand. :) Jim and I have been having a little off-list discussion on this. The basis of my problem was that I missed the last part of his post, in which he explained why he made the statements in the first part. Not his fault that I'm incapable of reading email. As it turns out, you can't send email to the top two people on Jim's list anyway (unless you happen to be in their district). I'm hoping that by providing the information below I might motivate a few people to actually do something more than have good intentions . . . 1) Chairman of the House Ag Committee, Bob Goodlatte of Roanoke, VA His web site is http://www.house.gov/goodlatte/ Mailing information is at http://www.house.gov/goodlatte/contact.htm He will not accept email unless you're in his district. 2) Ranking Minority Member Collin Peterson of MN His web site is http://collinpeterson.house.gov/ [Nice consistency there in the URL construction, eh?] Mailing address is rather cleverly hidden at http:// collinpeterson.house.gov//staff.html [and no, I didn't put the double slash in the URL] He won't accept email either, if you're not in his district. 3) Your state's Congresscritters. Every darn one of them. As we've seen above, the norm seems to be for members of the House of Representatives not to accept email from people outside their district. To find your senator, go to http://www.senate.gov/ and use the box in the upper right corner. To find your representative, go to http:// www.house.gov/ and enter your ZIP code in the upper left. In both cases you'll be directed to an information page that includes a page to send them your comments electronically. These pages also contain a mailing address if you take Jim's words to heart and decide to send a letter or post card. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 19:13:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herve Abeille Subject: Natural chemicals that occur in honey >He uses fume boards, I use bee escapes. We both follow the rules, but my >honey has no residuals of fume board chemicals. Is my honey not >better (every thing else being equal)? Fume boards, when used properly, do no harm. If you look into it, you will find that butyric acid occurs naturally in honey, as well as numerous other acids including formic and oxalic. That's why these particular chemicals were selected: because they are already in honey. " The primary acid in honey is gluconic acid, and acids account for 0.57% of honey. Other acids include citric, malic, succinic, formic, acetic, butyric, lactic, pyroglutanic, and various amino acids. Acid content and variety in honey is very important to its flavor profile. " http://www.solorb.com/mead/danspaper.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:50:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:30:20 -0500, Eric Brown wrote: >So to get back to Brian’s claim that the “sustainable” way to keep bees is >to sell high dollar (very high dollar) honey to suburbanites, I strongly >object, despite the fact that he’s presumably making very good money while >avoiding a number of objectionable “shortcuts” that a lot of other >beekeepers take. First of all, I don’t think we can say >we’re “sustainable” and at the same time say: “whether a farmer buys my >honey or not is of no concern to me.” I asked before, what quality do >suburbanites possess that farmers lack? A couple answers I could suggest >are ignorance and paranoia. If Brian isn’t able to sell to farmers because >they’re in more of a position to judge the real value of his product, then >I’m seeing red flags. > Eric and all I live in an area that has seen the price of 40 acres of rural land go from $50,000 in 1994 to somewhere around a half a million. My property taxes are soaring out of sight. Between property taxes and insurance (counting medical insurance) I pay around $500 per month. People blow by my 1989 bee truck in Humvees and Huge gas Guzzlers on their way to work with no other passenger in the vehicle. A bag of groceries costs $50-60 dollars. Fancy cups of coffee cost $5.00 and half of it might be dumped out 20 minutes later. Folks drop $100 for an evening out ... no big deal. Sorry I just don't feel too bad getting $5.00 for an 8 oz jar of honey, it lasts a lot longer then a cup of coffee. Funny thing about farmers now a days around the Midwest. They finance $150,000 tractors and combines, they're annual chemical bill is in the tens of thousands of dollars. They get nice government subsidies. Many seem clue-less to the environmental impact they leave in our rivers. The notion they are tied to the land is well kinda funny. Some spend about much time out doors as the guy in a shirt and tie blowing by me on the way to the office ( those guys golf alot). Those new combines and tractors have air conditioning you know. Maybe even TV's ? I dunno... I find that the urban and surbuban folks who value interesting "real" food spend more time out doors then many farmers I know. They have a pretty good idea of real vs non-real on a grocery shelf too. Quite a few farmers I know really could use a better diet and more excersize. So its an interesting world that has evolved, and I think that people like beekeepers who have some notion of the land, are thrifty and work hard should be compensated at a good yearly wage so we can keep doing what we do and bring some of that country back to the city even if its in a small jar for a piddly $5.00. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 06:36:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: next years almond season MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To all, Many of you lately have been reading the almond debate here on bee-L. I would like to make this my last post on this subject. Those of you that are considering the treks out West next year, some = thoughts to think about. Try to find a local keeper near where you will be staying, he or she = can help you find a local, the repair shops, bulk syrup, medication and = soforth.The yards that you winter in, make sure that they are accessible = in the worst winter conditions, ask a local. Make sure that someone can = check on them regularly, to make sure lids don't blow off, cattle don't = trample them etc... Field prep, some of us use G.P.S. to mark the = locations ahead of time in the almond fields. Farmers sometimes have = locked gates, overflowing rivers, etc... so you may have to enter the = field from a different direction at delivery time, G.P.S. will help you = with this problem especially at night.Make sure the bees won't flood, be = in the way of spray rigs, etc... , you don't want a phone call two weeks = later when your home telling you have to move them. Have phone numbers = of the county, private and other keepers in the area for a second = grading if needed (ahead of time ). Contracts: My god, be sure to have one. What is a good one?, that's up for debate, = but ask other keepers that have a pollination history, look at what they = use ( just do your home work). It may be worth consulting your attorney. = =20 Last but not least, be sure to have your bees in good shape. I've made many mistakes myself, I try learn from them and press on. Bob H. and his mid West friends, I hope they bounce back and you have a = prosperous second half of 2006.=20 Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:30:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Wilson Subject: Re: USDA Bee Lab Funding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, paper letters are better than email TN representive Duncan at one time sent me a letter saying he would no longer respond to emails and didn't consider them valid because he claimed many emails were being sent falsely using peoples names without their knowledge. He went on to include a cartoon that made fun of the issue I emailed him about and a letter that disagreed with everything I said. Do I feel represented? I usually send out about 7 form emails a week but when an issue comes up that I'm really concered about I write a paper letter. On those form emails, its a good idea to change the subject and the content. Better yet do that and copy and paste it into your own email system. Admitidly I usually sign my name and hit send on these, as time is limited, and at least this counts for something. Alternatively you can print out the form letter and mail it to increase your "score" of concern. There is some quick studies out there, like the survey mentioned, that rate the value of each form of communication. Personal visit I believe is at the top while email is at the bottom. Phone I believe is second. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:37:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milt Lathan Subject: How long is pollen good? Hey - time for an old-fashioned hobbyist's question: I have some pollen in my fridge in mixed bags harvested in 2002 & 2003. I am planning on feeding it to my (3 - so far) remaining hives mixed with a commercial feed. My experience has been that just adding real pollen to the soybean mix causes the bees to readily use up the feed well into dandelion bloom. But - is my pollen getting too old to do them any good? Now for the Dumb Question - Speaking only of dry or moist feed, I never see any evidence that a healthy hive is storing spring feed - do they? Thanks. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:51:37 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rossy Castillo Orozco Subject: Pachages bees from Australia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: I have read that Goldfields Apiaries, from Australia, has exported 3.000 packages bees to California to work on the almonds. Here in Chile we produce packages bees too. I've sent packages to Spain, Germany and Bolivia without problems.Our advantage is that we have the bees just when the northern hemisphere needs them, February, March. We are just finishing to harvest and I'm breeding my last queens .I begin breeding in august my Buckfast. But the most important thing of all is that we are the only one country in South America that has no Africanized bees.And this is due to the geographical isolation of our country.In the North we have the worst arid desert in the world, to the west we have the Pacific Ocean and to the east we have a very high mountain range. So I think that perhaps we could export packages to California, or queens ,I've sent to Spain, Italy France.If there is anybody interested please contact me. I hope to receive an answer.Chile has a Free Trade Agreement wih USA and perhaps we could do something good. Thanks beforehands Rossy Castillo -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 16:40:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Incoming pollen In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Milt Lathan wrote:Now for the Dumb Question - Speaking only of dry or moist feed, I never see any evidence that a healthy hive is storing spring feed - do they? The only dumb question is the one that isn't asked. That said, it's been my experience that when the hive is raising brood, they bring in pollen if at all possible and if you see the hive bringing in pollen it bodes well for the colony health and active brood rearing. You should be able to see incoming bees landing on the entrance board with pods of pollen on their hind legs. These pods can be almost any color, red, yellow, green, brown. Haven't seen any blue pollen come in but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:27:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: more on almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith, >Why would they go back to California without a contract again??? They were only offered $75 last spring after almonds to sign. Beekeepers which had always before signed held out for the higher prices the brokers said they could get. They told us we could clear over a $100 after expenses except the same brokers forgot to mention their rigged grading system. I am not talking about some other person > I AM SAYING WHAT I WAS TOLD MYSELF! >I'm not saying that a verbal agreement should be broken, but come on, shouldn't the beekeeper who is making the same mistake twice take some of the blame?? If you do the math there should have been a shortage of bees this year. With 50% of out of state hives being rejected for not up to standards ( and quite a few California hives) there should have been a shortage. The only possible answer to the glut of bees is that some growers simply did not rent bees. There is no other possible answer. >Ever heard of " a second opinion", county or private. I don't know where you are all getting this grading thing. Until this year we NEVER had bees graded in California. I have spent weeks at a motel in Kermin with 15-20 out of state beekeepers. The subject of grading hives never came up. We sat outside around the picnic table waiting for the call to place around 30,000 + hives into almonds for days. We ate breakfast at the same restaurant. Watched the super bowl at the same bar. The subject never came up once! Of course we never were offered the prices offered this year. The bulk of hives brought $65 in 2005. $55 in 2004 and $45 in 2005. We placed over 2000 hives each night in almonds for days at a time. This is not my first rodeo! > If what I hear is true, many won't return, and supply and demand takes effect, then maybe next year I can trade in my Porsches in for a Ferrari. I never met a "rich" beekeeper and I am on a first name basis with the two largest beekeepers the world has ever seen. Like I said earlier and will repeat. 80% of samples in the LA area (not far from you) are testing positive for AHB genetics. Growers want to open the border to Mexican hives to save the almond business. Special permission to enter to pollinate! Can you match $25 a hive almond pollination fees? We have been able to hold the border closed using AHB as the reason. The reason is fast disappearing. I suggests you only buy what you can pay cash for and save some of your money from this year for hard times. How long have you been getting rich in the bee business with almond pollination fees? Wasn't last year your first year of outside of scale prices? Was for us. Some hives went in late at $100 a hive. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:25:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: $8.00 Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Howard and all, As I see the situation, if you have bought a package of bees, you are not all organic. Do you paint your hives? Where did you get organic paint? How do you put money into organic beekeeping? What do you have to buy? Lionel -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:21:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: more on almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The price should have been $45 in 2003. I think the price was $45 in 2002 also. I believe $42 in 2001. Sorry for the typo! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:10:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Incoming pollen In-Reply-To: <20060222004013.88899.qmail@web53412.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike writes: These pods can be almost any color, red, yellow, green, brown. Haven't seen any blue pollen come in but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Reply: Blue happens out here, along with purple, beige, orange, black, white, besides the colors that you mention. It's a whole rainbow spectrum and very sweet tasting. But in taking it we must keep it stored in freezer untill sending to wholesale buyer. If for retail it is sold to those using either freezer or refrigeration sales appliances, with freezer first choice, with no to bulk sales or other at room temps due to shorter life span then fridges, though they are still okay for general consumption but not long-term. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 21:46:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: more on almonds Comments: To: Bob Harrison MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 Bob Harrison wrote: "Growers want to open the border to Mexican hives... to save the almond business. Can you match $25 a hive almond pollination fees? We have been able to hold the border closed using AHB as the reason. The reason is fast disappearing." Bob, yes the Mexican scenario could work and it would work the same way as the Australian scenario; that is one-way tickets only. The Mexican’s don’t want the small hive beetle; California has lots of them and they will have lots more as time goes by. The ironic part here is that California has been shipping and reshipping Africanized bee all across the USA for several years now and although there are officially no small hive beetles in California, (please see: http://ceris.purdue.edu/napis/pests/shb/imap/shball.html) the word on the street is that they are indeed there! But that as you know does not matter at the State border as loads have been turned around for even one dead beetle. That’s another factor to consider for the 2007 California Almond Pollination Season; the 2006 is close to being over; it will be months before all the dust settles on this one! I really look forward to reading your article in the April ABJ. Thanks for sharing and keeping the List informed. Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm 330 Irvin Street Reidsville, NC 27320 Tel: 336 342 4490 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 23:58:11 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: $8.00 Honey Comments: To: Howard Kogan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My honey sells at $5/lb. To the local consumer. No complaints yet. -- Scot McPherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 07:24:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Incoming pollen In-Reply-To: <20060222004013.88899.qmail@web53412.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-C1F2F42 > Haven't seen any blue pollen come in I've seen blue pollen in Vermont...when my apiary was located near a greenhouse growing perennials. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.11/264 - Release Date: 2/17/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 06:40:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: 4th German Apitherapy Congress, Expo and Course with International Participation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII 4th German Apitherapy Congress, Expo and Course with International Participation When: March 24 (noon) to March 29, 2006 Where: Holiday Inn Hotel, Passau, Germany Contact: Dr. Stefan Stangaciu at drstangaciu@apitherapie.de or drstangaciu@apitherapy.com For More Information: www.Apitherapie.de Apitherapy News: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 06:11:20 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Incoming pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Haven't seen any blue pollen come in" The prettiest pollen I've ever seen was purple. I pulled out the tray of one of my Sundance traps and there was a big heap of purple pollen. It was so breathtaking that I went wandering around and ended up finding a swale where a large stand of milk thistle was blooming. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 07:32:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: $8.00 Honey Comments: To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >My honey sells at $5/lb. Does a gallon then sell for $60 $5 X 12 lb.? Small amounts can always bring a premium price. For retail sales the 1 lb. jar is usually the size with the most profit margin. Pricing of a higher price on your smallest size increases the profit margin on your honey and can actually help move more product by making the regular customers buy a larger size to save money. The downside is the customers which cruise by your sales area and simple say "your prices are too high " and walk on. They do not stop to inquire WHY your product is higher because of the methods you use. They do not stop to read the label. The price has scared the buyer off. To be sustainable (which is not what most hobbies are) you need to figure your costs of production and then add a reasonable profit. Many small businesses fail simply because they sell their product at the rate the same product sells for in the grocery stores. IT IS TRUE that consumers determine the general price of honey by the prices they see every week in the grocery stores. Grocery stores do help the small beekeeper by not putting the price on the honey but on the shelf. They use the method to save labor on changing prices on the product on the shelf if a price change comes along. The reason I say it helps the little beekeeper is people make a choice on price while standing at the honey display in the grocery store based on the other honey for sale. If the jar is not marked with a price they do not look at the price they paid for honey every morning over cereal so the price becomes committed to memory. You can for sure command a higher price for your honey when you are doing direct retail sales to the customer. Also at places people expect things to be higher like events. In stores the situation changes for the reason I said above. A limit exists to the amount of higher you can go on price *and maintain shelf space*. What I mean is in large supermarkets they expect a certain level of sales from each square foot of shelf space. Once your sales falls below a certain level you lose shelf space. The reason why if you look at the honey sales shelf in a Wal Mart supercenter each month all year you see changes in honey. What happened they used to carry so & so's honey in 5 lb. jugs but don't now. What happened to the one pound local honey? Most small rural grocery stores will keep shelf space for the local producer regardless of sales or profit. The lesson to be learned from the stores is simple. Sales of honey in the U.S. is not growing. When I was a kid whole sections of sales area was devoted to honey. Not today! The big problem with foreign honey is not only the lower price but the fact the honey has a different flavor than honey buyers are used to tasting. In the Midwest we have got a wonderful tasting Clover honey. Buyers expect all light honey to taste the same as what they are used to. They refuse to eat the honey from floral sources they are not used to because it in their opinion tastes funny. Something must be wrong with it they say. Then it sits for months and crystallizes. Then each week while in the grocery store and the kids grab a jar of honey and try to put in the shopping cart Mom. Says "no" we have got honey at home! My two cents worth! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:18:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron Bogansky Subject: List Focus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Folks, I have been a member of this list for at least 12 years. I can honestly say I have read 85 – 90% of the posts during that time. While I am not a regular contributor I think I have posted enough times that at least some of you know me. I also take the liberty of referring to the members of this list as my beekeeping friends. This list is by far one of the best places to find out where all the action is with respect to beekeeping. If you subscribe to this list (even only as a lurker) and at least one (preferably two) of the major bee publications you can consider yourself a well-informed beekeeper. Many of the members of this list also publish articles in the publications. I have known a few beekeepers in the past that try to keep bees the same way they did before all of the problems hit and obviously failed miserably. Most of them don’t have computers and don’t subscribe to the publications. They own an old bee book or two and have no clue what is on the forefront. Thankfully they at least attend a meeting or two to find out what is going on. Lately, however, this list has seemed to shift focus. Most of the posts have been gloom and doom, and argumentative at times. I personally have contributed to this so I am not finger-pointing. We have always had some “hot” topics. I can only imagine some of the posts that get rejected on certain subjects. Over the years some regular contributors have left because of strong disagreements. Others have noticeably departed for unknown reasons. Quite honestly, I have also thought about signing off. I enjoy nothing more than a strong debate and have been told, much to my surprise, that I may be “opinionated”, so it stands to reason that I am comfortable with much of the recent discussions. However, I think for the sake of the silent majority on this list we need more balance. In the past along with the controversial topics there were many helpful ones. I have a hunch that new beekeepers visiting this list may not stay around because they may not be getting the help they need and may even be afraid to ask. I am not advocating for a newbee to post a question for help on the most basic of topics; something they will find an answer to in the archives. What I would like to see is something posted in the way of sharing simple new methods, tools, unique equipment sources, ideas, etc. We don't have to reinvent the wheel just share some common sense suggestions. I guess somebody has to start so it might as well be me. I will send a separate post on a new subject so as not to get tied into this one. That way for those of you who wish to reply to this one telling me to keep my bright ideas to myself, should have no problem. I hope the new thread adds to the fun and makes this list even more valuable then it already is, and maybe introduces us to some new friends lurking out there. Ron Ron Bogansky Kutztown, PA _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:22:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron Bogansky Subject: Useful Tools Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello again, As I hinted in my earlier post, I would like to start some discussions with a more positive spin. Hopefully we can share some new or even resurrect some old ideas to make beekeeping easier and more fun. This one is going to be on my favorite tools used in beekeeping but not designed for beekeeping. Air Compressor: This is by far the leader of the group. For years I painstakingly nailed frames together, 10 nails per frame, plus 3 or 4 to hold the foundation cleat. It seemed to take forever. I then bought an air compressor for an unrelated job. Coupled with a pneumatic stapler I can whip out frames at an alarming rate compared to the old method. This year I built a frame nailing jig. That added to the speed. The only problem is all the boxes I have to paint to keep up with the frames. When I purchased my compressor they were still somewhat expensive. Now, because of imports, the price has dropped substantially making the compressor an affordable tool to anyone. While these newer less expensive models may not hold up to industrial-like tasks, they should be more than ample for the use an average beekeeper will have. For the price of what you get for a few cases of honey you can purchase a complete kit. In addition to nailing I have used it to pry apart two stuck five gallon buckets. One little blast of air down the side will free any set of buckets. My honey house is close to my workshop and occasionally when bringing in supers I will notice some bees I did not remove. A quick grab of the air hose and the bees are flying back to their home and not carried inside. In addition to beekeeping I have found so many uses for my compressor that I can’t imagine going without it. Propane Torch: Another tool that has found many uses in my beekeeping jobs. I always seem to put off cleaning old frames until it is too cold for the solar wax melter to work. The torch works great here. Spot cleaning excluders is another good use. I have even used it to light a smoker in a hurry to GENTLY warm a fume board on a cool cloudy day. The year I broke my wrist, I used my torch to help in the uncapping of frames. I quickly heated the capping surface to soften them up and then used a capping scratcher. Ok, so here are two of my favorite atypical tools for beekeeping. What have you tried lately? Let us know, maybe if some of the ideas are very good Kim may string a few of them together for an article in Bee Culture. Then another group can share in the great knowledge contained in this list. Ron Ron Bogansky Kutztown, PA _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:41:29 +0000 Reply-To: pencaemawr@ntlworld.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pencaemawr Subject: Re: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron Bogansky wrote: Now, because of imports, the price has dropped substantially > making the compressor an affordable tool to anyone. Is it OK to buy cheap imported tools and then complain about cheap imported honey? Just asking, I do the same. :-} John Burgess -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:05:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: List Focus In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, the list focus is "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology". Informed is the operative word. The list is not for beginning beekeepers to ask beginner questions, even thought they do and are treated courtesy. It is a great place to lurk, as I did when I first joined the list. But I was a member of several beekeeping sites, including beginners, so my educational stream was a combination of under and post graduate. Learned a lot. Back in the good old days, when the list was not moderated, the level of heat on some subjects, take FGMO or science, was intense. I actually consider the recent discussion on almonds enlightening. There were heated comments, but when you consider what happened, the level of heat was actually tempered. I know if I had been one of the Mid-West beekeepers who walked into that buzz saw, my forbearance would have been limited. Most really heated threads are on the tried and true. Organic honey is one that brings back fond memories, mouldering in the archives. I think there should be a movie about the dead that seem to continually arise from the archives and haunt this list. Frightening. We tend to repeat what has been said many times, but for many it is new, since they are new to the list. And it is interesting to see new people post on the tried and true. I learn from them too. Best not to get too set in our ways. Dennis has convinced me there is something behind small cells, but I am still not sure (nor is he) what that might be. He persisted and I thank him for it. What I loved about recent threads was they brought out many who normally hide in the woodwork, like Jim and Murray. I sit back in awe when they post, since I learn each time. They generally stand back most of the time since they have been there and done that. But when the topic picks up some heat, they join in to give a rational (at least in Murrays case) response :) Allen was quiet, but he is always quiet and unassuming. So I do not mind a little heat. Keeps it interesting. The list is actually fairly civilized now. In the recent almond discussion, after all had calmed down, there were more apologizes than at a Rodney King reunion. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:23:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: List Focus MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; reply-type=response; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >Lately, however, this list has seemed to shift focus. Most of the posts have been gloom and doom, and argumentative at times. I personally have contributed to this so I am not finger-pointing. We have always had some "hot" topics. I can only imagine some of the posts that get rejected on < I have been monitoring this list and even posted a few times. I like this list because: I get information from experts from the US and Europe and it stimulates my bee thinking The discussions are sometimes spirited BUT sometimes too long and I believe we should "listen" to others view points. However. we should agree to disagree at times. All of us should not have to be "converted to a specific viewpoint and that is an individual choice. There are many times several ways to approach a situation and get satisfactory results especially with bees and all the varied climates in which they are kept. I enjoy hearing the different viewpoints BUT I do not necessarily have to agree or adopt them Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:36:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ron Bogansky wrote:Air Compressor: This is by far the leader of the group. Coupled with a pneumatic stapler .... Propane Torch: Another tool that has found many uses in my beekeeping jobs. I'm waiting until my honey sales has brought in enough money to buy me the compressor, air stapler, and staples but it definately towards the top of my purchase list. Will have to get a propane torch. Coupled with a brand I will be branding all of my equipment. Occording to state regs all bee equipment (wood) should be branded. Haven't done that yet because of expense. (Any suggestions for a source of a good brand at a good price?) Need to put together some more queen intro cages too. Planning to make a lot of splits this year and will need them to get the queens started in the splits. I plan to use 8/inch hardware cloth to make 4" X 8" into cages. May be a bit bigger than needed but want to get the queens started laying really good before releasing to the general population. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:20:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 12:23:56 -0500, Herve Abeille wrote: > I know many beekeepers selling >honey in stores and at stands. They follow all the rules of conventional >beekeeping. They use only approved chemicals in approved ways, they do not >overheat their honey and have no way to filter it, even if they wanted to. > >These people are producing a product of excellent quality It sounds to me like you just don’t want to concede that anyone else’s quality standards matter. Of course, they don’t matter to you, or they’d be your quality standards, too, but why do you object so strongly to other beekeepers’ defending their way of doing things? If they have any integrity they must believe that their way of doing things is better (and that the alternative way of doing things is worse). How is that different from you calling honey produced according to approved/legal processes as “ruined”? How is your degrading overheated honey any different from the “organic” guy degrading honey produced with the use of chemical pesticides? You clearly have your beliefs and quality standards, and you defend them with degrading comparisons to the alternative. I think that’s entirely appropriate so long as you do so with honesty and integrity. I don't think, however, that organic arguments can be dismissed simply on the grounds that they imply superiority to the minimum legal standards or to your personal standards. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:26:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: Quality Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 11:13:04 -0500, Ron Bogansky wrote: >don’t try to make your product better by trashing another beekeeper’s product. It seems Ron isn’t the first person to say something like this in this discussion. I’m wondering what you all mean by “trashing another beekeeper’s product.”. Obviously, it would be “trashing” to say, “Mr. Doe’s honey is [expletive]”, but what would you think if I (or another beekeeper said to his customers, for instance, “Many beekeepers use a couple different antibiotics, various synthetic pesticides including one of a particularly toxic class of pesticides called organophosphates, chemical fumigants, repellants, as well as flat out illegal substances in connection with honey production”? Or what if I talked about the persistency of certain miticides in wax? Or if I talked to my customers about the toxicity of different products? Or mentioned Llyod’s (I think it was Lloyd) post on tylosin residues being found in honey? Is that “trashing”? And ultimately, like Herve said, to say that one honey is better is to say that another is worse. Anything we say about our honey being good is saying implicitly that it’s better than something else out there which is implicitly saying that someone else’s is worse, right??? It seems casting a shadow over conventional practices is where an appreciation of organic practices begins. Or not? Isn’t it good and healthy for the industry if there are some voices of restraint and caution? And shouldn’t those voices be open and honest with their customers? Lest I commit the crime of “trashing," what do you all think I should and should not say, and how can I say it? Is there any answer to this question short of telling me to abandon any defense of or outspoken belief in organic/pseudo-organic production? Sincerely seeking answers, Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:29:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 11:35:56 -0500, Bill Truesdell wrote: >But they do meet the USDA label standards for organic, and so do I. > >To be able to label your product USDA Organic you need meet the following: > >Farmers who gross less than $5000 from organic products and sell direct >to consumers or retailers are exempt from the certification requirement. >Those farmers may call their product organic, but they can't use the new >USDA seal. No one else has responded to this comment, so I’m going to stick my neck out, if only to get corrected and thereby clear things up. My wife did some extension work with organic certification issues back when she was getting her degree, and I thought I was pretty sure that using the word “organic” was very complicated. My understanding is that certification isn’t required under $5000 gross revenue, but that all the same standards (including flight radius/wood preservative/wax foundation restrictions) apply if you want to use the word “organic”, and you could be subject to auditing (by whom, I don’t know) if you use the word. I think you’re also responsible for keeping all the same records and paper trails as if you were going to be certified. Maybe the loophole is just a lack of enforcement, but by the books I don’t think there’s anything easy about using the word “organic” at any level. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:33:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: Branding irons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike here you are, Brandnew 5511-c Ekwill st Santa Barbara, CA 93111 1-800-964-8251 Fax 1-805-964-4262 Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:34:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:50:46 -0500, Brian Fredericksen wrote: >People blow by my 1989 bee truck in Humvees and Huge gas >Guzzlers on their way to work with no other passenger in the vehicle. A >bag of groceries costs $50-60 dollars. Fancy cups of coffee cost $5.00 >and half of it might be dumped out 20 minutes later. Folks drop $100 >for an evening out ... no big deal. > >Sorry I just don't feel too bad getting $5.00 for an 8 oz jar of honey, it >lasts a lot longer then a cup of coffee. I don’t think Humvees, $5 cups of coffee, and $100 evenings out should be the reference points by which a sustainable enterprise finds its way. No one is denying that that part of the economy exists, but wouldn’t a sustainable beekeeper want to operate according to an entirely different paradigm? If sustainability is our goal, then I say forget the Humvees and take the Amish or your great-great-grandparents or Peruvian peasants for your reference points. Of course, we’re going to make a lot of concessions and compromises when it comes time to make decisions, but I think a goal of sustainability compels us to at least begin our thinking with a different archetype. I sell half pound jars of honey myself, and it’s something I struggle with. From my way of thinking, I overcharge for a half pound jar at $2.75. (I recognize, by the way, that cost structures would be quite different in Brooklyn, for instance.) I try to justify my price by thinking: if someone wants to buy such a foolishly small jar, let him pay for it. I retail a one pound jar for $3.75. I consider that a fair price, fair to the customer and fair to me. For perspective, my honey is produced without the use of any antibiotics, chemical pesticides, fumigants, or repellants. Even though I sell them, I don’t believe in half pound jars. I think a sensible customer should buy by the quart, if not by the case of quarts. I don’t consider it insignificant that the folks that keep a milk cow buy my honey in quarts and the folks that get heart bypass surgery for their guinea pigs buy my honey in half pound jars. When I sell a half pound jar I feel somewhat complicit in the prissy inefficiency of it. But then again, I’ve bought half pound jars myself as souvenirs. And these folks want to buy honey; why not let them buy mine. At least they’re buying honey I believe in, even if I don’t believe in the size. So not knowing exactly what I want to do, I meet the demand that’s there. Your comrade in guilt, Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:37:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Branding irons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brandnew http://www.brandnew.net/beehive_brander.asp -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 20:54:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: <20060223013634.68496.qmail@web53403.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Be warned push in cages do not work very well where there are small hive beetles as the cage gives them shelter from the bees in the hive. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 Mike Stoops wrote: I plan to use 8/inch hardware cloth to make 4" X 8" into cages. > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 19:15:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Honey standards. I think all conscientious keepers of bees and producers of honey endeavor to keep their honey as clean as they possibly can. To some these standards require that no chems be used in the apiary at all and if at all possible the forage upon which the bees brouse be chemical free also, including chemical fertilizers that in reality are transformed by the plants into organic substances devoid of the chemical origins. (I know this is tantamount to a flaming statement but it is a biological fact. Both dung and amonia nitrate is taken up by plants as simple chemical compounds, not complex entities of their origin.) Anyway, we try to make the product of our bees as attractive to the customer, and ourselves, as possible. If we contaminate our product with BeeOffHoneyFrame, let's get some samples tested and prove that it's not nice to use BeeOffHoneyFrame and made that fact known. If I knew for a fact that BeeOffHoneyFrame contaminated my honey, I wouldn't use it. In fact, I'm making plans to use a modified leaf blower this year to clear my supers of bees. Will I contaminate with the fumes from the exhaust? Hope not. Will look at the leaf blower design to see if the exhaust is directed towards the air intake of the leaf blower. We all have standards for our product - honey. Let's hope that all of these standards provide a product that is not injurious to our customers. If you want to try to adhere to the standards of "organic" more power to you. Personally, I want a product that has no materials foreign to the honey that exists within the capped cell, including chemical free wax. Takes time when you get equipment that has been used by other beekeepers and you have to rotate new comb w/ foundation to replace that which "might" be contaminated. This is especially true when you are limited with the funds you can expend on your hobby, avocation, or vocation. Let's agree that our methods are different, and may in some cases produce honey that is not devoid of trace elements of contaminants. As concerned beekeepers we have a responsibility to try to produce the best product possible. I would like to think that just about all of us are concerned about the quality of our product. I am now jumping down from my soapbox. Someone else can stand on it for a while and orate. Mike in LA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 19:41:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: <20060223013634.68496.qmail@web53403.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Another useful tool would be the leaf blower. Use it to blow the bees off your supers. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:36:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Quality Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric asks: > Is that "trashing"? Eric always puts his mind in gear before his mouth. Not all people do! If all people would think and then respond to consumers questions then we would not be discussing the problem. Among my interests I do the largest Farmers market in the six state area. The three stalls I run were first opened in 1926 and have been open every Saturday in season ever since. I have discussed the issue were are discussing with my help. I do not want to hear a "rant" saying all the things Eric talked about. First the subject distracts from the wonderful day the customer is having at the market, covers subjects the consumer knows little about (in most cases) and puts the image of pure honey in a bad light. We greet each person and smile often. If you are having a bad day people catch the vibes. If I see bad vibes I tell the person to take a break and cool off. I would rather be short handed than lose a customer over rude treatment. The fact is that honey is in a three year watch by the FDA and thousands of bottles of store shelf honey have been picked up by the FDA and the supply of honey in the U.S. IS safe to eat. Maybe not what some perfectionists want to eat but still safe by FDA standards. My employees know if I hear a "rant" about honey or another beekeepers honey I am upset. All the honey I sell at the market is local from my own hives. The honey has not been heated but is allowed to filter by gravity through nylon. I won the blue ribbon at the Missouri State Fair in both top classes with my Clover honey in 2005. I do pressure filter some bakery honey and do no processing of and use heat in the process of honey I sell in 55 gallon drums. If a customer asks about the honey at the market (only retail other than farm we do)we explain the way we produce & process the honey. End of story. Help quickly uses my standard answer to questions. If a beekeeping question then they are referred to me and we move the customer away from the front of the stand blocking sales and disrupting business. If I am not at the market then they give the customer a business card and they can contact me (which is not an easy task in the busy season). If a customer asks about the rumors about honey being imported, blended and all the things Eric talked about we answer honestly *each question*. We do not "rant' about every possible problem. We never bad mouth the other beekeepers honey. Beekeepers are a small group and if you say bad things about people or their honey they will find out ! What is the goal of doing a "rant" on honey with each pound jar you sell about all the possible things which could or could not be in honey? If you are trying to inform then start with a small part of the issue and say that honey from China has been found to contain chloramphenical about a year ago and was pulled from shelves in the UK.. Some honey in the U.S. and Canada was found to contain the antibiotic and was destroyed. You are giving honest correct information which they can easily verify. I sell the most honey at the market partly because we have got an excellent product , always are polite, we use Mr. & Mrs., try to learn our customers names and if a customer has a problem I will make the problem right. If they walk 10 feet from the stand and drop the jar and the jar breaks they get another jar! We always thank out customers for their business. I admit I have quietly answered consumers questions on the subjects Eric posted but I do not use as a way to increase sales. My two cents worth! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 20:04:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: <43FD23C9.7020303@russianbreeder.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Charles Harper wrote: Be warned push in cages do not work very well where there are small hive beetles as the cage gives them shelter from the bees in the hive. Mike Stoops wrote: I plan to use 8/inch hardware cloth to make 4" X 8" intro cages. Warning noted. Would only leave the cage on for about three days. Used it last spring with notable lack of technique, expertise, and correctness. How-some-ever, I did get better than average success with my introductions, especially with the Russians which, from what I have heard, are difficult to introduce into Italian stocked colonies. Think it was luck more than anything else. A few of my hives do have hive beetles but in other hives they seem noticably absent. Haven't noticed any damage to my active hives to this point in time. Have had damage in other hives lost to other causes. Mike in LA --------------------------------- What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:55:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buzz Landon Subject: Re: more on almonds Beekeepers - I am a new Bee-L subscriber and this is my first post. I am a second generation beekeeper in Northern California near Chico. I do not understand how there can be confusion on grading or how a beekeeper can be so surprised to see grading if they have been in the industry for any length of time. I can remember my dad's hives being graded back in 1982, this is nothing new. Grading is good for both the beekeeper and the grower. The grower usually has no clue as to the strengh of hives. He is not a beekeeper but paying for a service provided by us beekeepers. If the grower has a question as to the strength of the hives he can call for a grade. And as long as your hives are the strength that you promised in your verbal or written contract there should be no problem. Grading is good for the beekeeper because it gives you the ability to have an outside, unbiased individual come and proove to the grower the strength of your hives. I attending the California Queen Breeders meeting in Ord Bend, CA last month and three county Agricultural Comissioners also attending. These people stated that they would have graders (trained, county employees, not other beekeepers) available to growers a beekeepers, for a fee, to grade the hives upon request. Almond growers are paying us beekeeper for a service that we promise to provide to them. You must provide this service. Would a beekeeper sell 800 lbs of honey but tell the purchaser that there is 1000 lbs and expect to get paid for the 1000 lbs when you are only providing 800lbs??? That is not practicing honest business. And I guarantee you that you are not going to get that customer back next year. You must provide what you promise to provide. Buzz Landon -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:02:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Pachages bees from Australia In-Reply-To: <004b01c63739$70ead6e0$9000a8c0@rossy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rossy Castillo Orozco wrote: Hi: I have read that Goldfields Apiaries, from Australia, has exported 3.000 packages bees to California..... Here in Chile we produce packages bees too. So I think that perhaps we could export packages to California, or queens. I hope to receive an answer. Chile has a Free Trade Agreement wih USA and perhaps we could do something good. Thanks beforehands Rossy Castillo Rossy, Haven't seen any response to your question on the list, maybe someone did off-list. Anyway, there are a lot of problems for you to overcome before you would be allowed to export live honeybees into the U.S. You might contact the people who recieved the first shipments from Australia to see how they managed to overcome the importation problems. It might be possible, but there are a lot of things you will have to overcome. As you said, Chile has some natural barriers to the movement of unwanted bees into the country. You just might have a viable business option there. Good luck with your endeavors. Mike Located 1/2 way between Mobile and Montgomery, Alabama, USA --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:28:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Useful tools MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another very useful tool is a wife willing to work with the bees. They = can be used for all sorts of chores like pulling supers, having the = blower strapped to their back, off-loading supers into the storeroom, = loading hives onto the truck. Why buy a swinger when you have a wife. Best regards Roger White Superbee bee Cyprus. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:47:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: List Focus In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The topic of "focus" brought some interesting thoughts to my mind, largely about possessing a magnanimous spirit of generosity and charity toward those with whom we disagree. My "real" work is that of Presbyterian pastor, though some may argue if working an hour a week on Sunday morning constitutes "work." I keep around 100 hives and they provide a welcome respite and diversion from the "joys" of ministry. I did my doctoral work at a Catholic institution in St. Louis where I was treated more like an errant, Protestant, prodigal, step-child than a colleague. Yet one of the gifts of this institution was the notion of "collective wisdom." When a topic of discussion was brought to the table, it was discussed with the idea of learning from the group process rather than an attempt to prove which perspective was right. Everyone had their right to add their 2 cents to the topic. Contemplation replaced the need to have the last word. Many topics were left unresolved "for further review." And yet many times I fought that urge to drive the topic to some point of resolution. And resolution in my mind was proving my point of being "right." After all, opinions are like children: Our own are always the best. Learning to respect a different opinion was a challenge for me. It still is today. And yet I've come to the realization that two people can see the same thing and draw different conclusions, both being right (or both wrong). I had to constantly remind myself that our discussion was a process. I've posted a few times on various sites, but mostly I lurk. I like to think of my posts as contributing to the ongoing process of learning from one another, an apicultural collective wisdom, yet there are those who feel they need to settle the discussion and prove they are right. And if they are right, guess what? You're wrong! If you aren't with them, you're agaisnt them! I empathize with those who get fed up with the heated corrections and leave, though I think their departure is unwarranted. Which reminds me of something my father used to say in jest, "Those of you who THINK you know it all offend those of us who DO." There's another site, unmoderated, where making corrections and getting the last word seems to be the purpose of the list. Until some members left, haughtiness and huffiness were regular features. I bore the label of being "irresponsible" when I found a better way to do something that was not part of the conventional platform.. And yet even in the ignorance and arrogance of some of these posts, there is the potential to learn, to see a different perspective, to examine what we do and why we do it (or not do it). But it takes a different spirit to stop striving and driving our points toward resolution and listen to what someone else may have to say. It would be my hope that these "discussion" boards could be mroe conversational, as if a couple of good friends sat down over a cup of coffee to share what works for them. The ABF Convention in Louisville had some presentations under the headline of HIDI, or "How I Do It." No one stomped out of the room in disagreement. No one shouted down the speaker with what was right in their eyes. It was all very respectful. Though many of us keep bees differently, generosity and charity were evident. It was a wonderful convention. My father gave me a valuable piece of marital advice on my wedding day. He said, "Son, in your marriage, you can be happy or you can be right." It seems like there are a lot of unhappy members on these lists who feel a greater need to be right. I choose to be happy. That's my 2 cents, for what it's worth. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:01:49 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I have a gadget mentality and often make tools from scratch or modify existing ones to perform a different function. Commercial branding irons are available with their own gas burners, I made one out of bits and pieces that were to hand... It has given me very good service for about 27 years, although I had to replace the gas burner on one occasion. http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/branding.html It will never be used again by me, so if anyone has the initials 'DAC', then a deal could be struck offlist (bear in mind postage from UK is not cheap). But a really unusual beekeeping tool can be found at... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/applecorer.html I don't think you will find one of them in any bee suppliers catalogue. There is even a use for the small discs of foundation that result. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:26:05 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=E3o=20Campos?= Subject: Re: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There is a device that many of us are using to better deal with irritable bees in some situations. It's called "inverted escape" and has the same functionality of the escape board, but it's put just before the entrance, to only admit bees inside the hive. You can some pictures of it here: For example, when we have to mow the grass around the apiary, it's enough to put the inverted escapes on and tape the cracks/holes. Then we can start mowing immediately, because the only bees flying around will bee the returning foragers, and they won't atack. When working in a apiary with many "difficult" colonies, prone to much aggression and robbery, inverted escapes are also an option to "isolate" each hive being worked. I had this situation once. In 30 minutes or so, most of the bees are inside their hives, and don't get out. So the inverted escape can also be used to collect the bees anytime during the day, just before moving the hive to another place, for example. The inverted escape can also be used as the only ventilation screen for short periods of time, depending on the ambient temperature. Some beekeepers who work with apple pollination in the southern Brazil use only inverted escapes when moving the hives, but they place the hives on the truck in a way that makes the ventilation of every hive more likely. I don't know if this device is popular, or even avaiable, outside Brazil, because I have never read about it in foreign writings. Anyway, for those who keep not-so-gentle bees, even once in while, I think it can be of some help. Best regards. Joăo Campos Porto Alegre - Brazil _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! doce lar. Faça do Yahoo! sua homepage. http://br.yahoo.com/homepageset.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:57:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-30A611F4 > Air Compressor: Coupled with a pneumatic stapler I can whip out > frames at an alarming rate I now use an air compressor to assemble frames and other hive parts. With one person loading the frame jigs, and one person stapling, we've built 500 frames in a day. But, stapling can damage the frames. When you use nails to assemble the frames, the shank of the nail penetrates the grain of the wood, pushing it to the side, and the head of the nail sits on top of the grain...maybe compressing it on top a little. This way, the head is not above the top bar, and can be scraped without the nail interfering. With staples, in order to have the crown of the staple slightly below the top of the top bar, the crown imbeds slightly. This damages the grain. With two staples at each end of the top bar, that damage can lead to failure of the top bar ear. It is like trying to break a stick. Try to break the stick, and it bends. There is strength in the grain, and there is resistance to breakage. Put a couple small nicks in the stick with your pocket knife, across the grain, and the stick is easily broken. It's the same with the ears on a top bar. The two staples make a nick across the weakest part of the frame, and the ears are more easily broken off. Instead, use a good waterproof glue, and only one staple. This leaves more undamaged grain, adding to the strength of the wood. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.11/264 - Release Date: 2/17/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:49:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: List Focus In-Reply-To: <20060223054757.64036.qmail@web31602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Grant Gillard wrote: > My father gave me a valuable piece of marital advice on my wedding > day. He said, "Son, in your marriage, you can be happy or you can be > right." > > It seems like there are a lot of unhappy members on these lists who > feel a greater need to be right. I choose to be happy. > > That's my 2 cents, for what it's worth. You father must have seen the movie Harvey. In it the hero says, "In this world you can be oh so right or oh so pleasant. I prefer pleasant." The problem many of us face on this list is when we see something that is wrong we respond to it. Generally it is to someone who tried something and it worked but has nothing but anecdotal evidence that what they did was the reason for their success. Especially when is lots of good data that says it does not work. I could name a few of these that appear from time to time, but in the interest of keeping the entropy of the universe at a manageable level, will not. The other problem, which is apparent on the organic thread, is the classic black/white argument. If I am organic, then everyone else is awash in chemicals and irresponsible. I am organic and all other honey is contaminated with pesticides, antibiotics, fertilizer and cow manure (strike the last, it would be acceptable since it is organic). That is obviously false, but not in their eyes. There are things that are right that keep beekeepers out of trouble. We can be pleasant pointing them out and still be happy. Otherwise we are in a world of feelings and not one of reason. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:08:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Quality Honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric Brown wrote: > Lest I commit the crime of “trashing," what do you all think I should and > should not say, and how can I say it? Is there any answer to this question > short of telling me to abandon any defense of or outspoken belief in > organic/pseudo-organic production? In essence, what you are saying is that all other honey, except organic, is suspect. The customer hears this, informs others and no one buys honey from any other source. Eventually, only organic honey is left to buy. Or they just do not buy it since honey is "bad". A broad brush is hard to control. Lab tests show there is no difference between organic and other honey when managed properly. Hence, you are not telling the truth. There are irresponsible chemical and irresponsible organic beekeepers. Purity and truth does not reside on one side. Hence, yes, your outspoken belief is founded only on the assumption that the organic group is the singular repository of truth, justice and the American way. Unfortunately, sin is universal. So what should you say? Let your honey do the talking. That is what I do. It says more than I ever can. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:50:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Useful Tools MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joao, I had never heard of those before. I believe the use of those could be common in areas of the U.S. in the future. Thanks! Each night I have been listening to recorded tapes of the ABF convention. I just finnished the talks on AHB. No new solutions. 1. send samples for testing. You might send a sample when they first arrive but why waste the labs time later. 2. an AHB free certification for queen producers using open mating in AHb areas. Queen producers were all for the above but queen buyers were scratching their heads I was told. With the recorded tapes I can stop and rewind and be sure exactly what a speaker said. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 06:21:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060223073643.012c5900@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Palmer wrote: > Air Compressor: Coupled with a pneumatic stapler I can whip out > frames at an alarming rate But, stapling can damage the frames. Instead, use a good waterproof glue, and only one staple. Besides polyeurathane glue, the only good, waterproof glue that I know of is Titebond III. And it's not that easy to get ahold of. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:36:34 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: <002d01c63880$2f040600$2cbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joao, Bob & all The one way device is known as a 'spray entrance' in UK, as it was used to trap bees in the hive when spraying of chemical was imminent, that was in the days when chemical sprays were noxious substances, the spray entrances are still sold... The last time that I saw them was at the UK National Honey Show a few months ago. http://www.honeyshow.co.uk/ On sale on the Stamfordham stand. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:51:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric Brown wrote: > but that all the > same standards (including flight radius/wood preservative/wax foundation > restrictions) apply if you want to use the word “organic”, and you could be > subject to auditing (by whom, I don’t know) if you use the word. There are no USDA standards that describe organic honey that have been approved. The label regulations are for all organic produce under the act. You have two things here. One is the liable standards, which concerns the product's level of organicity (Shakespeare could invent words so why not I?). The other is the product must meet standards to be defined organic. It is the latter where we have trouble. Check the standards and you will not find honey mentioned. It was a part of a recent group that included standards for greenhouses, mushrooms and some other things. The others came to agreement, but as far as I know, honey is still an orphan, at least according to the USDA website. The "subject to auditing" is also key in all this. Large commodities and producers will be audited, but small operations (like beekeeping) will fall through the cracks. It just costs too much to audit. The only policing will come from State Organic organizations, and here, too, beekeepers are small fry. A wave over the records and all is well. There will be no honey analysis, since it will show nothing and cost too much. To me, that is the essence of the problem. Organic honey is no different than the majority of all other honey from the same nectar source in chemical makeup, purity and quality when handled the same. So what does the label really give the consumer? The opportunity for abuse is much too great, in my opinion (and experience). Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:38:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: AHB in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I direct this information to Joao in particular. I started to send directly but thought the list might find interesting. Has any research on take overs been done in Brazil? I listened to the research being done yesterday by the Tucson Bee Lab (taped) which does the AHB research. I have said many times on BEE-L I believe very different genetics exist in AHB in different areas. The AHB in Arizona is the most unusual in my opinion. Florida behavior seems different but could be the same and seems different because not as much research has been done so far. The Tucson labs research this season in one area was on the take over of hives by AHB. Here is what they said: The takeover swarm can contain up to 5 mated queens and many intercaste females (half queen /half worker). The swarm enters the hive by fighting their way in and protecting the queen by a type of balling( surrounding her and protecting her). She then starts laying eggs and the take over has began. All (up to five queens so far) can be laying in different areas of the hive. The lab reported take overs common and on the rise in their yards. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:58:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe Subject: a new use for propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI everybody, Check out the following article on a new use for propolis in Brazil. http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=3DoddlyEnoughNews&sto= ryid=3D2006-02-22T130800Z_01_N21115863_RTRUKOC_0_US-BRAZIL-CARNIVAL.xml John Howe The Brooklyn Bee -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:17:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: Useful Tools MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; reply-type=original; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I found Tightbond 111 at Lowes lumber. I prefer the Tightbond to "Gorilla glue" because if you get some on your hands or tools it can be easily removed and not have to wear off. If you do use the polyurethane glue apply copious amounts of hand lotion first as it makes removal easier. I do use poly glue for many uses--try seating your hammer / tool handles with it for a great bond. Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:46:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: jpstein@VERIZON.NET Subject: Re: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: <20060223034132.23078.qmail@web53402.mail.yahoo.com> >Another useful tool would be the leaf blower. Use it to blow the bees >off your supers. I second that. Works best with at least three people. One to remove supers. One to blow the bees out of the super. One to load the supers on the truck. You don't have to use Bee Go kind of stuff although that reduces the time required to clean bees out of the super. In the Fall when the the Bee Go stuff is less effective the leaf blower sure saves time. And it doesn't hurt the bees. Jim -- ----------------------------------------------------------- jpstein@verizon.net ----------------------------------------------------------- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:20:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB in U.S. In-Reply-To: <001c01c63886$d68bd820$08bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob writes: The lab reported take overs common and on the rise in their yards Reply: Bull. In the center of Tucson and over a million people? Also in Avra Valley with population growth the same...sure.Funny few others see such common reported experiences as by the lab, and yet others in the area like us, work with bees daily. However in saying this, during spring buildup and fall, secondary swarms are around like they always have been, and do and always have go into hives that need queens (failing queen or one that lost queens during splits). Another thing, you can go into the journals, both ABJ and Bee Culture, and see articles going back over the years, on swarms pictured with multiple queens occurring. This is nothing new.......except the perception of some looking to write in a new direction. Think the highest counted number of queens in a swarm in one of those magazines was around 10-11 queens even if my memory is right, and that wasn't even in our area also (too bad). Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:55:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee & All, I am sure a strong hive would not be taken over by swarms. Only queenless and weak hives. I would certainly would like to learn more about what they say they are seeing. They have shown pictures at meetings of the take overs each year. You also said on BEE-L AHB do not sting while swarming. In Florida they say they do. Maybe only AHB of Florida. In short AHB genetics are doing things we do not see in European stock. I do find it curious that you have never said one negative thing about your stock or AHB. I do research on many lines. Currently: Four lines of Russian bees. Both lines of Purvis brothers bees a Buckfast line a Italian varroa tolerant line two lines of Australian stock two lines of California Italian bees NWC stock crosses of the above In the past Marla Spivak queens SMR Glenn Apiaires Russian/Russian Each of the above lines is different and has good traits and undesirable traits. I would be interested in you describing your bees and their good & hopefully describe any undesirable traits. Thanks in advance! respectfully, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:16:12 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: The Victors Subject: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I agree with the air compressor. It is likely the best non beekeeping tool that I have ever purchased. Leaf blowers are pretty cool as well, but make sure that the exhaust is not dumped into the air stream if you get a gas powered one. Mine did, and after blowing out some bees I could smell the fumes in the emptied super. I know there are other models that exhaust in a different direction. I would add two items to the list: Needle nose pliers are great for separating frames from each other without jarring the hive. I place the tip between frames with the pliers closed, and press the tool straight down. The taper of the pliers gently and smoothly wedges the frames apart without the usual disturbance that a hive tool gives. I use it for those times that I want to sneak in for a quick peak without waking up the whole hive, for example, checking a new queen. In addition, the tip rarely crushes a bee the way a hive tool does. A shop vac is one of the best tools to have in the honey house. Once you have wet the floor down and vacuumed up the water you will never go back to a mop. The floor comes out dry, not slippery, and not sticky. There is no waiting to go back to work. This works well on a painted cement floor, I have no experience with other surfaces. Steve Victors Big Lake, Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 13:21:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Almer's Apiary Subject: Re: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Using Baggie Feeders. Not really a tool but a method only for beekeepers that use baggie feeders. Place the ZipLock bag inside a 2 lb coffee can or equal. Fill the can by pouring the syrup inside the ZipLock bag. Zip the bag and remove it from the can. Place a queen excluder on the hive. Place the filled baggie on the excluder and cut the slits for bee access. The coffee can is a good consistent measure of volume and if you ever tried filing a loose ZipLock baggie from a 5 gallon jug, from the tail gate of your truck you will realize the real advantage of this method. If you ever needed to move a plastic bag full of liquid with holes in it, you will realize the value of the queen excluder. I am not the "relayer" not the creator of this method. Bob Fanning Huntsville, AL USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 20:39:19 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Useful Tools Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I use a chisel putty knife in place of my hive tool when working hives. I find it easier to use since the knife handle fits better in my hand. The knife is also smaller and easier to use for me. The tapered chisel blade is thick enough to separate hive bodies and propolized frames. I only use the hive tool when I can't find one of my chisel putty knives. :) Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:33:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron Bogansky Subject: Trashing Beekeepers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello All, I really did not want to go any further with this, but I do want to clarify my thoughts in my Quality Honey post. Eric replied: “It seems Ron isn’t the first person to say something like this in this discussion. I’m wondering what you all mean by “trashing another beekeeper’s product.”. Obviously, it would be “trashing” to say, “Mr. Doe’s honey is [expletive]”, but what would you think if I (or another beekeeper said to his customers, for instance, “Many beekeepers use a couple different antibiotics, various synthetic pesticides including one of a particularly toxic class of pesticides called organophosphates, chemical fumigants, repellants, as well as flat out illegal substances in connection with honey production”?” Actually I was thinking more of all the beekeepers that do some or all of the above and then trash another beekeeper that doesn’t, stating “That’s hogwash! All honey is the same and all that stuff about heating, filtering, and chemicals is just more hogwash! However I am very much opposed to the “Many beekeepers…” statement. I applaud anyone attempting to keep bees using few or no chemicals whenever possible. I also get very upset when someone in any aspect of agriculture cheats and uses terms that would be misleading knowing full well they will not be challenged and can get away with it. But just like in the rest of agriculture the use and not abuse of some chemicals does not necessarily make the product inferior or even dangerous. Using the “many beekeepers” statement tends to suggest that any use of “chemicals” is evil and dangerous. For years, especially when our children were young, we tried to live a more “natural” existence. In fact, that is how I got started in beekeeping. We used honey rather than sugar. Somewhere along the line we thought having a few beehives would be a “good idea”. I had a huge organic garden and made compost by the ton. One thing I learned was that if you had healthy soil plants grew better. I also learned that occasionally using a chemical fertilizer is not a sin that should be punished by banishment from the garden for life. I do believe that you cannot just depend on chemicals and give nothing back to the soil. Whether it was our children, goats, pets, plants or bees; if they were sick, I was glad to have “chemicals” in my life to help cure them. I am sure that some will agree and others will not. But that has always been and will always be the debate. If one claims to know anything about being “organic” then the name Rodale should be well known. For almost 20 years I have kept bees at the Rodale Institute. You can take that statement for what it is worth. Does that mean the honey my bees produce in this area is better, healthier, safer, etc, than the honey I product on another farm four miles away? Maybe, maybe not. Who knows? However I am sure I could spin this to make someone believe it is. I do tell folks is that we are very particular in where we establish our apiaries and won’t put our bees just anywhere. I will tell them where my bees are located and why I have chosen these sites. One of the main reasons is the sites are good for the bees! As I stated earlier, a number of factors influence the quality of honey. As it is with plants and healthy soil, good honey starts with healthy bees. IMHO some things have to be done to keep them healthy. There is one great factor that affects keeping bees healthy and this affect is not shared by everyone on this list. I am talking about winter. If I do something wrong in the fall, I probably won’t have bees in the spring. In milder climates of the south or southwest, you may get a second chance to fix what is broke as you don’t have a four month period where you can’t work you bees. There is nothing in beekeeping that makes me feel more depressed then losing a bunch of colonies over winter. That said I will do what I think needs to be done in order to prevent that from happening. Does that make me one of the “many beekeepers”? Who knows maybe it does, but with at least 20 winters under my belt I am willing to accept that charge if it means surviving and thriving colonies. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, PA _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:53:48 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Useful tools MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wedges. They are cut from scrap wood and are a few inches long and maybe an inch square depending on the source. I always carry a few in the pocket of my beekeeping tool belt. They can level a hive, stop a hive rocking on its stand, or act as an extra hand when easing open a stuck hive. Lever a small gap with the hive tool and insert the thin end of the wedge. You can then bent down to see what the problem is or to add smoke without risking your back by supporting the weight and twisting. This and other useful tools and tips are to be found on the Dorset BKA web site. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:57:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Usefull tools MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My pressure washer gets a good workout every spring, Stack up the winter repaired and other weather beaten supers and blast off all the loose paint, propolis and what ever else before roller painting. Have not been to successful with spray painting, paint to thin to fill in some cracks and seams, even with a couple of coats. I wonder if paint is holding some of my supers together? Scraped down plastic frames respond well to a blasting. Have an old drum, poked holes in around the bottom so it doesn't fill with water. Suspended a grate a foot or so down from the top to lay frames on. Drum does a good job at containing mot of the deflected spray. Boots and slicker add to the comfort level. Alden Marshall Hudson, NH 03051 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:18:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: List Focus In-Reply-To: <43FDBD5C.2070904@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: "The problem many of us face on this list is when we see something that is wrong we respond to it. Generally it is to someone who tried something and it worked but has nothing but anecdotal evidence that what they did was the reason for their success." Response: Quite true, Bill. And I don't mean we turn a blind eye to ignorant practices, and if I was making a mistake or doing something foolish to endanger my honey, I'd hope someone would point it out to me. But most people resent correction and constructive criticism. It seems our gentle corrections, our helpful advice, even our own experience comes across as somewhat belligerent or argumentative at times. The media of e-mail doesn't do justice to the essence of what we are trying to communicate either. And sometimes you have to let people learn on their own. Even a horse choking on salt will refuse to drink from the well you led it to. And when someone KNOWS it all, especially anecdotally of how their bees never looked better, our helpful advice seems intrusive. I can't blame them for getting defensive. And as these anecdotal experts are have now become "package bee buyers," I humbly hold my tongue rather than say, "I told you so." I've made enough mistakes of my own that I don't need to remind others of theirs. I appreciate the forum, even those with whom I may disagree or not share the same thoughts (often mistaken for disagreement). Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:53:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB in U.S. In-Reply-To: <001801c63899$f1c96fe0$10bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well Hello Bob and all: Each of the above lines is different and has good traits and undesirable traits. I would be interested in you describing your bees and their good & hopefully describe any undesirable traits. Reply: Okay, go thru your different lines then one by one you noted, and describe what has good traits and undesirable traits, so I can picture more what you mean for description, and I will come back on what I/we do, look for on our end, though it is probably different then what you do Bob, or maybe not. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 18:56:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: List Focus on Mistakes In-Reply-To: <20060224011829.85179.qmail@web31604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I go on the premis that I don't have time to make all the mistakes myself. If I'm to learn, I not only have to learn from my own mistakes, I have to learn from others' mistakes too. Just just flat ain't enough time to do it all oneself. ;) Mike in LA --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:57:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: Quality Honey Comments: To: William Truesdell On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:08:27 -0500, Bill Truesdell wrote: >In essence, what you are saying is that all other honey, except organic, >is suspect. That's the last thing I mean to be saying, even if it is what my customers hear. My biggest complaint with formal organic standards is that they become another least common denominator, in other words, that they turn "organic honey" into another commodity. Instead of producers and customers together seeking the path of maximum integrity, a bunch of local producers are first disqualified and then it's back to a Walmart mentality of cost-cutting. That's a perfect recipe for irresponsible production AND consumption. One way or another I think customers need to be put in a position where they can choose to support beekeepers that are enriching the community. There's a lot more to truth than what can be proved in a lab test. I'm thinking big picture here: I value small, local producers because they make my community more vibrant, because they make the local economy more balanced and stable, because they decrease dependency on Chinese labor and Middle Eastern oil, because they provide opportunities for my children to make a living in the community, etc. And because I'd rather trust my neighbor than some faceless market mechanism to provide a wholesome jar of honey. As a consumer I want to know, for instance, if the jar of honey I buy is enriching my neighbor and my community or if it's (and this is all relative, it's all just shades of gray) enriching the stockholders of Monsanto and Exxon. I completely agree that sin is universal. Which means to me that there is no honey that isn't "suspect." And that is all the more reason not to content ourselves with "organic" or any other minimum standard. I want to empower the consumer to support what he believes in. And I want his beliefs to have a basis in genuine knowledge. An educated, informed consumer might choose to support a beekeeper that is always trying to raise his standards. Letting my "honey do the talking" really doesn't seem like enough. My honey is like my fourteen month old daughter: it's very endearing, but it can't communicate a whole lot. If I can teach my customer to appreciate the things I do to go beyond whatever minimum standards, then he might decide those things are worth supporting. How else am I to make those extra steps from becoming a competitive disadvantage that undermines the viability of my business? Perhaps just as important as communication is the face-to-face relationship. Of course, I need to sell more honey to make a living than I can know faces, but much more than any legalistic standards, I value the accountability of a personal relationship. I see the personal, face-to- face relationship as a mighty enabler of quality and responsibility, and I see a lot of things in the "organic" standards working against that. So my concern with the pushers of "organic" is the same as my concern with the skeptics of "organic": both seem to want content themselves with different minimum standards. I don't want to accept any end to the potential for improvement. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 20:42:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Traits of different lines In-Reply-To: <20060224015330.54098.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: Each of the above lines is different and has good traits and undesirable traits. I would be interested in you describing your bees and their good & hopefully describe any undesirable traits. Dee, You were writing to Bob. I'm going to stick my nose in and share the little experience I have had with some of the lines mentioned. First, I'm located about 90 miles NNE of Mobile, Alabama. The winter has been more mild than usual, it seems. We have had henbit and wild mustard blooming since the last week of January. Some of the early blooming fruit trees have been in bloom for several weeks. Saw some white clover blooming today so that's beginning to become available. And there are the various other early blooming plants so for a number of weeks now my bees have been bringing in pollen and nectar. SMR's I got my queens from one of the most reputable sources in the U.S. I made splits from basic mongrel Italians (2 frames of brood with a frame of honey and pollen on each side and 6 frames of foundation). Even with my fumbling attempts at introduction all five took. They built up very rapidly. I fed sugar syrup and in about four weeks all of them had about six or seven frames of solid brood each. I've been into the hives already this year and I definately have two queens remaining, one has been superceded, and in the other two I've not been able to find the queen although there is a very good brood pattern in both hives. Anyway, I was impressed with the way they took off and built up over the summer and carried through the winter. Russians. Again, my queens came from a very reputable source. The line I got was supposedly pretty touchy but in the entire time I've worked with them they were no worse than any of the other bees in the yard, and one time I worked them right up to the start of a heavy thunderstorm with no problems. The Russians seemed to start pretty slow. The SMR's were way ahead with brood production for the first three to five weeks. Then the Russians caught up. All of the hives were pretty strong by mid summer. Already this year the Russians are starting to build up and I'm told that they are slow to start. Didn't seem to be this year. The size of the winter cluster might have been smaller than the SMR's and the Italian/Buckfast cross but not too much so. One Queen didn't do well and the hive died out. I figure it was a poor queen. It never did have a good brood pattern. All of these bees are involved in a test so I couldn't take much brood from the other hives and try to b! oost the poor one. With this bunch I was able to successfully introduce four of the five queens into the splits, again made up with basic mongrel Italians (2 frames of brood with a frame of honey and pollen on each side and 6 frames of foundation). I later introduced a Russian into the fifth hive and she seemed to take. Not sure if that was the one that later failed or not. Will have to get back into my records to see for sure. The controls - the Italian/Buckfast cross. I was not impressed with these bees. I had the hardest time getting acceptance of the queens for some reason. If I remember correctly out of five hives I had to requeen three of them. They didn't seem to build up as rapidly as the others. They too, were started the same way as a split. One of them died out late in the summer, again I think it was a poor queen. They built up but not as successfully as the others, at least to my observation. When I checked about a week back only one of the queens seemed to have made it through the winter without being superceded. I'm impressed with the SMR's and the Russians but not so with the crosses. I keep those because they are the standard to which the others are being compared. I have a couple of other hives with just plain old Italians and they seem to be doing well in the location. One of them I kept in just Illinois supers to see how they would do and it just about filled four of! the five supers I had on it. All of the hives did well with the fall flow and went into the winter with good stores. Italians, Italian/Buckfast cross, SMR's, and Russians. With just one season, well almost, I think I would like to populate my yards with the Russians and the SMR's. We'll see how they do this summer with a monitored honey production and mite monitoring. As mentioned previously the whole yard of bees seemed to be very docile, even in not so good conditions. I must say though that NONE of them liked me mowing around them. Don't know if it was because the weeds were so tall by the time I got to mowing the yard or what, but it's taken me about three sessions with the mower to get the whole yard mowed. They just about mob me after about ten minutes working up close to the hives. Was able to get most of the yard out away from the hives mowed the first session, but when I got close, it was "Can't stand it any more." Hopefully with all the weeds and stuff down now it won't be so bad this year. Well, a pretty long diatribe, but that's my two cents worth. Like the SMR's and the Russian's at this time. Not impressed with the Italian/Buckfast cross. Will see how they do this summer. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 00:08:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Traits of different lines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike in LA writes he "Likes the SMRs and the Russians ... not impressed = with the Italian/Buckfast cross." =20 My observation is SMR is a trait, not a race and I am left wondering = what was the liniage of the SMR bees that Mike likes. Many breeders = claim to have incorporated SMR into their lines. SMR Italians, SMR New = World Carniolans, queens that exhibit SMR from breeders north of the = border aouth of the Mason/Dixon. Like sourwood honey, there are a lot = more SMR queens sold than produced! =20 Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 22:50:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, If you look closely at a line differences appear. I like to test a large number to get a clearer picture. Several of the lines I talked about I am evaluating for commercial beekeepers. Hobby beekeepers can delete now as what I am about to say is mostly of interest to those keeping bees for a living. The Russian bee for example has many undesirable traits in my opinion (at least for a beekeeper keeping bees for honey production & pollination). But the negative traits can be overcome by management practices. The plus is varroa & tracheal mite tolerance and wintering ability. I also rate requeening after swarming as a very important Russian trait. The negative is shutting down every time the weather changes and a small winter cluster. Management is the only way to get the Russian/Russian bee to winter on a large cluster in my opinion. All the four Russian lines I looked at were alike in the above points. I did discover minor important differences between the different lines. What I have said I don't think those which have kept the Russian bee would argue with. You have got two choices. Come up with a cross which eliminates the undesirable traits (for your purpose) or use management practices. Each of the lines I worked with were different in some aspects. I am painting the lines I looked at with a broad brush Dee to give you an idea. I could spend an hour talking about each line. The Italian lines I last looked at are easier to evaluate as the good points are always honey production & prolific. . Undesirable traits for my area are brooding too far into the fall and in many cases susceptible to tracheal mites. Once I understand the undesirable I can recommend a method of improving the performance of a line of bees. Three seasons is the time usually needed to evaluate a line. Fifty queens is the least in my opinion to use for testing and a 100 is better. Once you understand the traits you think are undesirable for your area then certain management practices can solve most issues. All beekeeping is local. All I know about your bees Dee is they are small and black to dark brown. Allen Dick said they were gentle and had good brood patterns but he did see varroa (which is not a big deal to me as long as they are surviving). I can take the discussion off list if you like. Just email and say so. I don't want to put you on the spot just curious about your line of bees.. Bob Ps. In certain areas of the world the beekeeper uses a certain queen for a certain floral source. Requeens with another queen for a different floral source honey production. I did experiments years ago and got results. Not a big deal if you raise your own queens, Use an italian for honey production in Dakota and say a carniolan to winter on. I consider the queen the lifeblood of the hive. Other commercial beekeepers see all queens in the same light. As long as they see eggs or brood then everything is ok regardless of production or wintering ability. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 20:43:45 -0600 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: $8.00 honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To all, There is often confusion with beginners to the marketing of honey who when letting those initial customers taste and respond are most times met with responses like "This is the best honey I've ever tasted or My, this is wonderful, so much better than the last honey I bought in the store." The American consumer has a finer pallet today than our father's and grand-fathers generation. We are constantly presented with hundreds of taste choices for practically every product we buy. It's why we pay $ 4.00 for a 40 cent cup of coffee at Starbucks. I too fell into this false belief until after years of experience realized that its not better "quality" necessarily, but simply “different“ than the beekeeper up the road. The smaller a producer you are the more variability you will have in the taste of your honey from year to year and from yard to yard. Larger producers who blend hundreds or thousands of gallons at a time with boxes from many yards tend to homogenize the taste of their honey, albeit with regional variations still a possibility. This uniqueness of taste and “differenceâ€is what prompts people to purchase your honey and request it again and again until something new and unique comes along, something different. Everybody’s been talking quality, quality and quality. Customers today expect "quality" in all products they purchase, pure, fresh, healthy and wholesome are all requirements for simple satisfaction. To provide anything less is to disappoint. Basic quality is taken for granted. When you are selling direct at a farmers market or craft show you are able to go beyond expectations of the consumer, as opposed to grocery store shopping, and provide a level of excitement. The old Smell, Taste, Sizzle and Pop that stimulates the buying impulse. And you are a real beekeeper, which is also exciting, as people are almost always intrigued by the profession of keeping bees. So go ahead and ask a higher price for your “different tasting†honey. Quality, Gourmet, Organic, New and Improved are all Trendy Marketing Techniques that will continue to come, play their tune for a time and slowly fade away, replaced with the newest catch phrase. Once the large suppliers like Wal-Mart start commoditizing the "Organic" banner and providing it at a minimum, the end of the run for any premiums is in site. I’m in 9 health food stores and all sell an organic honey. It granulates (if not shipped that way) then starts deepening in color and finally they give it to me to feed to the bees. We do “Cooking with honey demonstrations in these stores and outsell “Organic Honey†costing $8.00 to $ 12.00 per pound by a 100 to 1 margin. We sell our honey. Big difference. Even Organic does not always sell itself. We work on building a continuing market at a reasonable price $ 3.50 - $ 4.00 retail. To say your honey is better than that in the store is, as others have pointed out, simply untrue and I know a packer who runs a million pounds a month through his plant who would be glad to discuss "quality" with you. Large packers blend for "consistency", consistency of taste, color, moisture content and shelf life which are all things that the majority of consumers expect and ultimately purchase. Plain and simple. People do not like being disappointed with a product and consistently buy products that consistently meet their expectations. When people tell me my honey is better than all of the rest, I simply smile and agree. To denigrate or downgrade another’s honey is never positive for the industry. Tim Tucker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 01:33:22 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: Useful tools MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/23/2006 6:33:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, superbee@SPIDERNET.COM.CY writes: >Another very useful tool is a wife willing to work with the bees. I don't have one of those. My most useful tool is a four year old daughter. Now before you all call DCF and report me, let me explain. I couldn't keep her in the house or far enough away when I went out to play with the bees. So I bought her the smallest and tightest Jr. bee suit I could find. She is still swimming in it, but at least she will get a few years wear out of it. By the way, her suit cost a few times more than my suit, which I don't wear anyway. I thought she would lose interest the first day out. She says "Daddy? Do you think a bee will land on me?" I look down and she already has a cluster the size of a large soup bowl on her shoulder. I figured this would be it. She would scream and run for the house. "I think some already have." I said. And pointed to the bees. She turns to look, nose to nose with hundereds of bees, turns to me with a big smile and says "Cool!" She's just like her Papa. When she is not poking at bees, she is the best tool fetcher I have. She keeps the tool box orgainised and knows where everything is in the barn. She mixes up a mean batch of syrup. Though she thinks the pollen subsitute smells bad, she likes to mush it between the frames. She is better at spotting queens than I am. When I tell her it is time to go check the bees. She can get her suit on, drag out the tool box and load the smoker in less time than it takes me to put my boots on. Some other useful tools. I make jigs for everything. Box joints, frame assembly, foundation installs. There is a pile of plans on Beesource.com. Petroleum Jelly, it keeps propolis from sticking to your hands and tools. It cleans hands and tools. A thin layer will stop hive bodies from sticking together, and frames from getting stuck. The bees don't seem to mind it and I think it give parasites less areas of refuge. I cut a hole in the lid of an old baby food jar, filled the jar with petroleum jelly and apply it with an acid brush. A little bit goes a long way. Wood stove pellets. Once lit, the smoker burns a long time. I light mine with a Mapp gas torch. The torch is real good for cleaning excluders, etc. Queen catcher. I know, real men don't use them. I hold her in it until I'm done doing what ever I'm doing. My tool box is made out of a nuc hive. If I need to, I can dump the tools out and use it to carry brood back and forth. I saw a simular tool box for sale in one of the catalogs. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 07:28:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herve Abeille Subject: Re: AHB in U.S. Comments: To: Bob Harrison >All I know about your bees Dee is they are small and black to dark brown. Right, they "select" for that by rejecting anything that looks "yellowish". That's the only selection I have seen mentioned. As if color was the most important factor. And these are "requeened" by dropping virgins into their midst. H. Abeille -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 09:45:01 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=E3o=20Campos?= Subject: Re: AHB in U.S. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison said: > I direct this information to Joao in particular. I started to send > directly but thought the list might find interesting. Has any > research on take overs been done in Brazil? Not recently, AFAIK. Most of researches and conferences on bees and beekeeping, reported on symposiums, congresses and meetings in Brazil, are published in a CDROM and updated periodically. I searched the most recent copy for this subject, but I could find only two references, dated of 1972. Both mention AHB taking over EHB colonies, but it's only observations, not research on that. I've seldom heard about take-overs, and only from the few "eurofans" who write in discussion lists. I haven't noticed any event, but it doesn't mean that they don't happen - for those who keep AHB, an invasion is much likely to go unnoticed. Moreover, it seems that AHB colonies are harder to invade; I think it was Marla Spivak who reported that almost only queenless or very small AHB colonies were subject to take-overs in Costa Rica. As for the swarms with multiple queens, many beekepers report that, but it's generally assumed to be secondary swarms with virgin queens. Maybe not always. I had a colony once that showed an explosive growing off-season, only on modest artificial feeding. I had to split it and found 3 queens, with no sign of queen cells. I don't know if it was an "incomplete" supersedure from several weeks before, or a more recent take-over. I have never read a description of a take-over like the one you mentioned, and I found it fascinating. Joăo Campos Porto Alegre - Brazil 50 anos de abelha africanizada: 16º Congresso Brasileiro de Apicultura 22 a 25 de maio de 2006 Aracaju - Sergipe http://www.xvicba.com.br/ _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 08:54:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Wilson Subject: usefull tools MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sticks, Use them for entrance reducers, prop lids, sit a feeder jar on two placed on an inner cover when the inner cover hole is already covered by another feeder jar, wedge sticky boards agains bottom of screen to seal hive for mite treatments, additional smoker fuel. Best thing is sticks are already located in my apiary. sticks are a no-brainer, but perhapse begginers may not think of them. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 08:05:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I have never read a description of a take-over like the one you mentioned, and I found it fascinating. I never did either! The lab has been showing us pictures for years of takeovers but this is the first time I heard about what happens on the inside of the hive and the way the AHB enter. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 10:13:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Law Subject: Ionize Away with Beeswax Candles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Ionize Away with Beeswax Candles An article from treehugger.com about beeswax http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/02/ionize_away_wit_1.php -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 18:21:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Traits & Characteristics (Re: [BEE-L] AHB in U.S.) In-Reply-To: <20060224015330.54098.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob and all: Well Bob, you said " I would be interested in you describing your bees and their good & hopefully describe any undesirable traits." Reply: Well, this certainly will be different responding to you Bob, as you are testing established lines, and we are finishing a program we started with a shakedown of our whole outfit in the spring of 1997, when we where told to prove and show our methods worked. This year should be our last round of expansion back with splits/divides, and then it will be two more years to finish, polishing off, working specifically on the bees the last two. However, to describe our bees, some of the traits which you see as bad.....we see only as good and necessary, so I guess each beekeeper has to decide what is best to ones own area and management style. But herein is a problem, for if the management style doesn't fit the locally adapted flora and/or latitude then problems could arise. But to describe our bees to you, two main parameters would need to be looked at. 1) that which is across the board stock, and 2) that which is looked for exceptionally, for usage as breeder stock and making the mix.......and these are two different categories. But then this you should already be aware of being commercial. For the first, would be similar to stock you have been given to test by others, while the second would be special stock reserved back for making the combination, and/or maintaining it, and hence the two different categories. But you said to describe our bees for the good, but since this is normally done after making the mix then the bad is normally already gone, to get to where we want to be...except that what we see as good, you may not, i.e. like shutting down brooding during honey flows, and throwing all the force for foraging stores needed by the colonies,with of course,surplus for us. Also propolizing we see as good, while others see as bad. But in describing our bees,production is always in the front, especially with us being in a known desert area. Right now for example we are in over 130 days of drought with no rain and no spring build up started because of it. This takes bees that can hold and then when rain does come, build up FAST and get stores and hopefully surplus for us. Another good is that they have been acclimitized by us to accomodate our area and have never really been used elsewhere........hence I don't know how they might work in your area for instance. For what is good here might be opposite in your opinion. But the bees are screened for about 18 traits/characteristics we here look for,say vs,only about 10 traits/charactreristics we don't like. This is something we have always done. The thelytoky trait is a great positive and backup system known in many races strains (i.e. carnolian, caucasian, italian, amm)and needed for natural beekeeping due to extreme conditions the bees commercially are many times subjected to, but you should be aware of these extreme conditions with bees commercially. besides already knowing we have had this trait for years with our bees and that they were compared to cape bees years ago by sampling so that they couldn't be called same when we had a working relationship with USDA back in the 1980s. Also the secondary swarming is a very good trait for large commercial operations as least IMPOV especially when large numbers of queens are being switched, but you too should be aware of this with mass requeening programs and or large migratory movement of large numbers of colonies and the holding yards they are kept in, for you can end up with clusters all over the place hanging in yards being worked, and I have seen this in the past in other states or even here over in Yuma where much pollenation goes on. It is also needed during exceptional times of stress. But you are certainly accurate to state that the negative traits can be overcome by management practices, but I would add here.....to fit ones's area. Also I would like to say that for our main stock we prefer a hybrid type, more similar to small dark earlier Italians by about 50% and the rest small blackish. All uniform in color and size also and this means a lot believe me. Then for our selections for breeding when done,it is to the dark side specificly small black, with selection finished in the early fall after the main flow is done, for usage,for performance has to count for production being in desert environment. So what is bad? well of course no surplus, too yellow, and aggressive have always been absorbed throughout the active year by spreading to the 4 winds by us. There are others but those are the main ones. Of course some of the good we see you would feel opposite here also. Will stop for now..sure you will have comments. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:28:22 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: usefull tools In-Reply-To: <20060224135400.MGTZ2285.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My pocket knife. Its not really a classic pocket knife but more like a small folding hunting knife. I use it for all my cutting and prying needs. It's the one tool I use more than anything else except my hands. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 03:54:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics (Re: [BEE-L] AHB in U.S.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, Thanks for information on your bees! Others may not think you have shared a lot but to me you have. I understand what you are saying. I have few comments but do have a few. > Also propolis we see as good, while others see as bad. Only in the last few years have beekeepers stopped criticizing my operation for not keeping free of propolis. When I first started beekeeping I was told by *all but* my ninety plus year old mentor to keep the propolis out of the hive! Lines which used lots of propolis should be avoided other beekeeper said! I followed the majority of advice for years but as fast I removed the propolis the bees would replace. Then I started doing experiments. I found hives with the normal amounts of propolis seemed to do better. Then I learned most bees will use propolis up to a certain amount and then stop. I realized that especially some bees are determined to keep what most beekeepers believe is too much propolis. To sum things up I let the bees keep the amount of proplis they feel they need as long as I can manipulate the hive parts. I think most beekeepers are turned off by propolis. Gets on fingers, bee trucks and is hard to remove and remove for their own reasons. My partner (which reads the list but never posts) has a thing about propolis and spends hours (if not weeks a year) in his battle to remove porpolis from the hive. You do! >Another good is that they have been acclimatized by us to accommodate our area An important point. Also one I rarely talk about but comes out often in my testing. Queens of lines from breeders in the south do not winter as well in my area more often than not. I believe its because they are not selected for wintering. However I believe if a line of bees which came from the south were brought into a northern area and selected for for a few years for wintering they would do fine. Most beekeepers do not look close at winter deadouts except to look for disease. High loss (with everything else being right) can point to queens which winter poorly that you bought in the south which have never been selected for wintering. The beekeeper should always ask the person he buys queens from what they consider as important in a breeder queen. >But you are certainly accurate to state that the negative traits can be overcome by management practices, but I would add here.....to fit ones's area. I agree. Bees do quite well in most cases without help but to make a living from bees you need at times to help them along. Sometimes a little adjustment can make a super of difference in a honey flow or help a hive make it through a tough winter. For those following along I might add about management. Only adjust a hive when you know what you are trying to accomplish. Needless arranging can cost production and survival. Forget the books and look at your bees. Know what a normal brood nest looks like! If you know normal then you will recognise abnormal! Example for Missouri: If you see in fall a brood nest which is spreading out to a point the nest could split in winter rearrange back into a compact unit for winter. Same as you would a tree growing in two directions in an orchard. If you don't correct the growth early in life your beautiful fruit tree will split in two later on. In the orchard the tree will grow until it splits in two. In the bee hive in winter if the brood nest is not compact the nest will split and become two small nests. In Missouri these will die in long periods of cold weather. Dee deals with desert and I deal with winter. My bees might not work for her and hers for me. I gave a couple examples of winter management. I am sure Dee could give many examples of what they look for in hives in the desert to survive the long period between rains. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 08:13:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics (Re: [BEE-L] AHB in U.S.) In-Reply-To: <002c01c639f1$6a538d80$08bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6D3441FE > Example for Missouri: >If you see in fall a brood nest which is spreading out to a point the nest >could split in winter rearrange back into a compact unit for winter. Bob, I too have winter in northern Vermont. Some years, more than five months of winter...with snow on the ground. First, I would like to know...what do you see in a Fall broodnest that tells you the colony is going to "split" in the winter. Second, what management do you perform in the Fall to prevent the broodnest from splitting? It seems to me, that with winter acclimatized bees having good populations, there is no "splitting" of the brood nests and there aren't any small isolated clusters in winter. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.12/267 - Release Date: 2/22/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 08:31:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics (Re: [BEE-L] AHB in U.S.) In-Reply-To: <002c01c639f1$6a538d80$08bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am sure Dee could give many examples of what they look for in hives in the desert to survive the long period between rains. Reply: Here to survive, you must know your plants and rock formations, besides what to look for when opening a hive and looking down. You want plants in your immediate area known to have roots close to water, and rock formations known for this also. But in looking into hives, you want packed broodnests with stores on the side 2-3 deep and bees solid in center with TIGHT lids and no ventilation holes up top to let moisture out. Here inside condensation is really needed for water usage that the bees give off/make in heating during winter and breathing. In summer time, the other opposite extreme, you want bees that can take the moisture from the honey drying and channel it down by fanning into the broodnest area for water usage there. It also helps to haul water if need be to with floats upon the containers to minimize water evaporating. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 08:20:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics (Re: [BEE-L] AHB in U.S.) In-Reply-To: <002c01c639f1$6a538d80$08bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob writes: In the bee hive in winter if the brood nest is not compact the nest will split and become two small nests. In Missouri these will die in long periods of cold weather. Reply: Even in our short winters of Dec-first half of Feb this happens here but mostly to those still using Apistan or have used it a lot in the past. Think if I remember right D. Miksa wrote early on of symptoms of halo effect using the strips and ending up with patches of brood and split broodnests during off season months in winter. How would you associate this with what you are seeing? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:35:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: usefull tools MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; reply-type=original; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I also use "sticks" for entrance reducers. I cut some 1 1/2 strips with one side on a 45 angle and in various lengths. They fit any opening, stay put, and I have maximum flexibility -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:06:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Formic acid results MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is the first year of large scale formic acid use in the US. Has anyone have any feedback on its use and or effectiveness? Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 06:32:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Cox Subject: Re: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: <200602231916.k1NJFux2001526@eng-prv.mtaonline.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >My favorite is my parrot's feather. Works much better than a bee >brush, which I call a bee spear, because that is what these plastic >bristles do....spear the bees. Next, is a shower cap, although I'm gonna try a nurses cap, because they breathe. Makes your hair shiny!!! I don't wear bee suit and gear when working my bees, and they are very nice bees, but they are attracted to my red hair and it is curly and very difficult at giving up the bee. And manipulation cloth is cool. I keep extra inner covers with me so I can cover all bees that are "open." Kathy Cox ~ Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets http://www.bloomfieldbeeshoney.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:57:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: THe radar-tracking study by Riley et al. (Nature, May 12, 2005) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline The study (immediately touted in the popular scientific news-media all over), was done without using any scented food. The authors believe that their results provide an experimental confirmation of the honeybee "dance language" (DL) hypothesis. Is that so? No upwind zigzag (a response to attractive odors), was observed in any of the radar-tracks. Only 2 of the tracked bees "landed at the feeder". However, (based on personal communication with one of the authors, U. Greggers), they actually landed on the feeder-stand, but never found the food, or the feeder (even when they got "within 8 cm. of the feeder").. The authors cite the statement by Sandeman & Tautz, that honeybee-recruits find odorless sources (such as water, nest-sites and ivy flowers), in nature too= . The statement is groundless. Nest-sites are never odorless in nature. Neither are water-sources, which invariably have odors from vegetation at the edge of the water, or rotting vegetation in the water. According to personal communication (from Tautz), the statement regarding ivy flowers is based on old information scattered in the literature. Such information is invariably based on v. Frisch's erroneous conclusion that honeybees have a very poor, human-like sensitivity to odors, which led him to erroneously assume that flowers which are odorless to humans, are also odorless to honeybees. The statement that honeybee-recruits can find odorless sources i= s also refuted by the results reported by Wenner (in his 1971 book), where no new bees ever found the feeder when he removed all possible odor-sources, i= n a dry desert (which enabled a far stricter control of odor-sources than was possible in the environment in which the study by Riley et al. was done). The statement is also refuted by the fact that even the 2 tracked bees that landed on the feeder-stand in the study by Riley et al., never found the feeder. However, as soon as you add scent to the feeder, you are bound to obtain ne= w bees arriving at the feeder invariably (based on observations on thousands of new-arrivals), through an upwind zigzag, from as far as the bees can onl= y be spotted by observers at the source, with the naked eye, i.e. from a distance of at least 10 m. away. The fact that recruits never arrive throug= h a shorter upwind zigzag, alone suffices to discredit the DL hypothesis. (Th= e point was first raised by Wenner in print in 1974.) The addition of scent to the feeder can, in no way, prevent recruits from using their DL, if they only have a DL; all the more so, since they are expected to use it in nature, where they find only odorous sources. The inevitable conclusion is that Riley et al. succeeded in experimentally confirming that honeybees have a DL, which cannot exist in nature, i.e. in the real world. I am quite willing to settle for this resolution of the DL controversy, because a DL that cannot exist in the real world, can not exis= t at all. It is possible to point out various other problems with the study, and its results. But space limitations prevent me from going into further details here. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:25:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: List Focus on Mistakes MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; reply-type=original; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit There is a saying "different strokes for different people" One thing may work OR be preferred by one person and that MAY make it RIGHT for that person. By sharing his/her experience that person is trying to help others--a good thing for a healthy list. I ONE WISHES TO ADD HELPFUL CRITICISM--SAY IT WITH LOVE. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:10:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics (Re: [BEE-L] AHB in U.S.) In-Reply-To: <20060225022115.41219.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-23586B25 > So what is bad? well of course no surplus, too yellow, and >aggressive have always been absorbed throughout the active >year by spreading to the 4 winds by us. Dee, I don't really know what you mean here. You say that aggressiveness is "absorbed through the active year by spreading to the 4 winds." What is that supposed to mean? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.12/267 - Release Date: 2/22/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 15:07:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: Re: formic acid results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan, I've been using formic for about 15 years. Here's my method. I use D.O.T drug sample cups with lids. You drill a hole in the lid, = cut a three inch piece of candle wick push it through and use a hot glue = gun on the inside to seal the hole (leave some of the wick exposed on = the inside) you should have about 2 3/4 sticking out. Put a knot at the = end, then put a split shot fishing sinker at the end right above the = knot, this will keep the plastic bottle from blowing off if its = windy.There's one draw back to my method, we use the top feeder hole as = the formic hole. In other words, you have to have a hole in your lid for = this to work. Out here in Calif., most of us use a top style feeding = system I design this method around that. I fill about fifteen hundred = 4oz. bottles in a day and put them on the next.The nice part about this = method is you don't have to mess with the hive, just pop out the feeder = plug and set the formic on. It normally takes about three weeks to a = month to evaporate threw the wick. It is not a cure for the mites but = just one in my arsenal. Good luck=20 Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 23:48:25 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: THe radar-tracking study by Riley et al. (Nature, May 12, 2005) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow! That paper happens to be sitting on my desktop, and I'll happily share my thoughts on it with you all. First of all, a little background. I'm a scientist, a crop scientist. Trained (and reasonably successful as far as I know) in being objective and perceptive. As a regular journal reviewer I'm used to reassessing the interpretation scientific authors put on their results. The paper Ruth just criticised *is* science of the highest quality. I find it most impressive. Here is what is reports: - foragers were individually numbered, and bees arriving at the dish of unscented sucrose monitored, to permit bees to be studied at the moment of their recruitment - such bees were watched observing a forager's waggle dance and trapped individually as they left the hive - with the help of radar their flight paths were monitored - out of 23 recruits leaving the vicinty of the hive with transponders attached, 19 were able to be followed by radar - all 19 were tracked heading in the direction indicated by the forager (+/- about 10 degrees from a straight line to the feeder), one didn't fly, and three headed in roughly the same direction but could not be followed by radar - the wind field was monitored and could not have carried an odour plume towards the hive - from the figure in the paper, it looks like about 17 additional foragers which were captured after watching the dance and released away from the hive also all flew on a trajectory indicated by the waggle dancer and not towards the dishes themselves - the bees had difficulty finding the exact location of the dishes, an observation entirely compatible with the current view that bees will use visual and odour cues to make the final approach to nectar sources Having read various contributions on this controversy over several years, I had been prepared to entertain the thought that bees do not communicate direction and distance of forage by waggle dances. But Ruth, appearing on another forum in the last few days with criticism of a different paper, prompted me to go and read the original Riley et al paper. It is a beautiful piece of work, and leaves little room for doubt that the waggle dance does indeed communicate directional information to naive foragers. I don't know why Ruth is implying that the authors of the paper deny a role for scent. Their second last sentence reads: 'Our results have shown that although this process is highly effective, most recruits would not reach the intended food sources without the use of odour and visual cues in the final stages of their flight.' They believe, and I'm sure that they are right, that the waggle dance tells them roughly where to go. In normal circumstances, they would also pick up odour cues and use these to fine tune their approach to the site. The abstract is here: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v435/n7039/abs/nature03526.html but you'll either have to pay, or ask a scientist with library access if you wish to see the full paper. It is an easy read, honest. This press release gives a few more details and a photo of a bee with a transponder: http://www.bbsrc.ac.uk/media/pressreleases/05_05_11_honeybees.html all the best Gavin. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 18:51:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics (Re: [BEE-L] AHB in U.S.) In-Reply-To: <002c01c639f1$6a538d80$08bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 25-Feb-06, at 4:54 AM, Bob Harrison wrote: > Dee, > Thanks for information on your bees! Thanks Dee & Bob, for an informative discussion > > The beekeeper should always ask the person he buys queens from what > they > consider as important in a breeder queen. > At a joint meeting of New York and Ontario Beekeepers Associations, several years ago, I asked, at a seminar chaired by Medhat Nasr, why queen producers didn't state the traits they were trying to breed into their queens. A large queen producer answered that he couldn't possibly list the traits of the 100,000 queens he sold each year. A member of this list, also attending the meeting, stated that queen production was a "crap shoot". I feel that a queen with stated and proven characteristics should be worth a higher price than a "crap shoot" queen! Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 22:23:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" These are a few of my favorite things: Duct Tape. Yup! I don't know about the rest of the country, but here in Maine, the general handyman attitude is "If you can't fix it with duct tape, it ain't broke". I don't know if I'd go quite that far, but it sure is handy. I can't imagine not having a roll or 2 kicking around. I find plenty of uses for it around my apiary. It's easier to list the things you can't use duct tape for... sorry, can't think of any right now! Sheet rock screws. I always have a few in my pocket and a jar of them in my toolbox (along with various nails and a small hammer). They're good for anything from digging out a splinter to repairing a broken frame or sticking two boxes together. Needless to say, it helps having a battery powered screw gun, or at least a phiplips screw driver. Magnifying glass. The old eyes ain't what they used to be. Handy for examing combs and looking for eggs or checking out an interesting rock or insect and on at least on one occassion, lighting my smoker when I'd forgotten matches :) George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:55:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics (Re: [BEE-L] AHB in U.S.) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060225170855.02d56048@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike writes: spreading to the 4 winds Reply: Well there are two ways of getting rid of stock that is not good for what traits/characteristics you like so you do not pollute the drone pool with inferior ones you don't want to continue. One is requeen, but many times this doesn't take and here agressiveness come to mind. They are harder hives to shift a queen on for acceptance. So hence you dequeen and then take the brood and split it into about 4 groups or so and place some in other hives lagging behind for faster build up but still medium to reasonably strong (similar to equalizing hives during buildup for production) with nurse bees and all. Then you can put a weaker colony were the old field bees are left flying, and strengthen it also. Hence in a matter of a few short weeks the bees are absorbed into the other colones, with no overpowering of any one. Respectrfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 08:40:55 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics (Re: [BEE-L] AHB in U.S.) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060225080332.012c30d0@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, I realize this was directed at Bob, however I feel ok with chiming in. In the early winter or late fall depending on your area, your bees will slow down in brooding. The space left free of brood will get filled in either with new forage if there is any in your area, or moving of stores from up to down. The queen while still laying less, will continue laying. Sometimes what can happen is that bees will start to fill the gaps in the center of the nest with pollen and honey. This leave two smaller micro clusters which if cold weather sets in earlier than expected by the bees can cause then to tighten up around the brood. If the brood core is split even slightly, then they get stuck on either side of the middle stores and can't really get together again without sacrificing one side of the nest, which they generally won't do. What to do in this situation is to move the middle frames of partial storage to the sides, so that the cores can be brought together as one core, moving the partials to the sides where they would be normally if the core didn't get split earlier on before the bees had time to get back together. Given time they will get back together if possible, with one split getting reduced whlie the other side strengthens, but this doesn't always happen. However as Dee and Bob pointed out, this won't happen as often with bees that have been acclimatized. Its good to see both Dee and Bob on the same page here, because it reinforces that acclimatization is in fact something observed by more than one well experienced beekeeper. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:41:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics (Re: [BEE-L] AHB in U.S.) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Darrell writes: I feel that a queen with stated and proven characteristics should be worth a higher price than a "crap shoot" queen! Reply: Yes, tested queens watched a whole season before using to make the mix normally do cost more by the time you sort through and watch on average 18 or more traits/characteristics before deciding whether or not to use or pass. In the past we have sold a single queen this way after using for breeding for $800, as it is bad practice to use same queen a second time in mass with outbreeding even. But last time we did this was in mid-1990s and believe me these queens are handled with great care, for you may only find 2-3 in a given year out of say 1,000 you look at that you want to use. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:36:32 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Pollination of sesame seed plants MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone had any experience with pollinating sesame seed plants? Does any one have data on the protein value of pollen from sesame seed = plants? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 01:29:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Correction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline PART III Hi All, and particularly Gavin Ramsey, In case any one would care to look up my 6 very long posts on the honeybee "dance language" (DL) controversy, they were posted between Dec. 2005 & Jan= . 2006, on the animal_behavior (Anim Behav) mailing list (before the owner caught up with what I was doing, and advised me that the list was not intended for discussions of issues in animal behaviour). The same posts wer= e posted under the same title, on the Comparative Psychology list of Texas Christian University, some time later. -- Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 00:08:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Continuation: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline PART II To All, and to Gavin Ramsey in particular, 7. The authors provide few details, and only one track, about the tracked bees that presumably did search for attractive odors. But the search is described as occurring in arcs. This is not at all the way regular recruits are expected to search for odors, according to v. Frisch's DL hypothesis. In fact, he took it for granted that whenever recruits, with their presumed very poor sensitivity to odors, search for attractive odors, they do it by conducting a circular search that gradually expands around a starting point= . His first study on honeybee-recruitment led him to correctly conclude that recruits used odor, and NO information about the location of any food. The details of the results he obtained in that specific study, however, was to the hive, the earlier it was found by recruits, and the breater number of new-arrivals it revceived. His error regarding the very poor sensitivity of honeybees to odors, then, lefthim no choice but to assume that the way recruits search for attractiveodors, is by conducting a circular search tha= t gradually expands around the hive, and extends all the way to the limits of the foraging area. Exactly the same type of expanding circular-search is retained also in his DL hypothesis, but it starts at the hive, and extends to the limits of the round dance range, for round dances. It starts at the point reached by use of distance & direction information contained in waggle-dances, and extends within a relatively (actually unspecified0 short range, for waggle-dances. (See "more information" about v. Frisch's odor-searches.) 8. Both distance-information, and direction information, contained in waggle-dances for any specific site, have a normal distribution; with the maxima presumably providing the correct information (at least under light wind-conditions). His DL hypothesis, therefore, predicts that recruits should fly out in a fan-formation, with the maximum number flying in the correct direction, and all the rest deviating to the right, or the left fro= m the correct direction; the greater the deviation, the smaller the number of bees that make it. The "fan" is also expected to be wider, the closer the feeder is to the hive. (This last point need not concern us here, beyond th= e fact that the experimental feeder was always kept at a distance of 200 m. from the hive, i.e. not very far from the hive.) In addition, among the very many auxiliary hypotheses introduced into the D= L hypothesis, v. Frisch was obliged to assume that recruits contribute errors of their own (again, the greater the error, the fewer the bees that make it.) As a result, he claimed that even if recruits found a man-made site with the foragers' food-odor in exactly the opposite direction to that of the foragers'-feeder, they still used the distance & direction information contained in the foragers'-dances; but they used the information with combined errors of up to 180 degrees. (Well, you can't make a combined erro= r that is greater than that.) Riley et al., of course never tracked any bees that flew in the opposite direction to that of the experimental feeder; and such cases are expected t= o be rare anyway. All the samples the authors obtained are, however, far too small to determine whether the tracks do, or do not show any semblance of the "fan-formation", expected according to the DL hypothesis. 8.The study also involves a logical contradiction. The authors enlist help from the studies by Gould (in Science of 1975), and by Srinivasan et al. (i= n Science of 2000). I debunked the interpretations of data provided in both studies. (See "more information", about those 2 studies.) Gould's interpretations of his data are even totally irrelevant to the whole DL controversy. Riley et al., however, accepts Gould's interpretations as full= y valid, and Gould claimed to have experimentally confirmed that honeybee-recruits use DL information only under v. Frisch's conditions. Under the circumstances Riley et al. should have tested the DL hypothesis specifically under v. Frisch's conditions. Instead, they did not, and could not have done that at all. Why? Because v. Frisch's conditions (as used by Gould), required , among others, using food with one scent to train the foragers, and switching to food with a different scent for actual tests on honeybee-recruits. Riley et al., however, very deliberately EXCLUDED THE USE OF ANY SCENTED FOOD. And, of course, as I pointed out, HAD THEY USED SCENTED FOOD< THEIR PRESUMABLY DISCOVERED DL WOULD QUICKLY DISAPPEAR INTO THIN AIR. Do you still view that radar-tracking study as "science of the highest quality"? I know, the honeybee DL hypothesis also looks very attractive, until you take a very careful look at it, and realize what a terribly incredible mess it really is. I can, in fact, explain all the results obtained in that study without recourse to any DL information, had the tracked bees been only re-recruited trained foragers. I shall, however, skip all the details, because the precautions the authors describe exclude the possibility that the bees radar-tracked in this specific study were anything other than regular recruits (even though the 2 special bees that landed on the feeder-stand definitely behaved like re-recruited trained foragers, instead of regular recruits). For my proposed explanation, which I intend to skip altogether, I need amon= g others, that the feeder-stand (but not the feeder), be contaminated with environmental odors. This is a possibility which cannot be excluded at all. The feeder was often exchanged with a clean, fresh feeder, with new food. But the stand remained unchanged. Unlike Wenner, who conducted his studies in an area that turns into a dry desert in summer, the study by Riley et al., was done in a very large pasture in Germany. The pasture obviously contained different types of vegetation, with some food-bearing plants. The pasture was mowed. There was no fresh vegetation near the hive, or the feeder, and observers could easil= y reach both sites, without trampling on any fresh vegetation. The climate in the area was, however, such that, even though the study was conducted in summer, the grass that remained attached to the roots after the mowing, continued to grow. Under such conditions the mowed grass might not have dried enough to lose all odor-traces for honeybees, with their exceptionall= y high sensitivity to odors. Tiny bits and pieces of such mowed grass dust, light enough to be carried by the wind, could then very easily contaminate the feeder-stand. It might take a while, and winds blowing from different directions, to contaminate the feeder. A newly replaced feeder might remain uncontaminated for a short time. Now, I know (based on information provided by Greggers), that there were also un tracked new bees that arrived at the site of the experimental feede= r on their own; which was to be expected, especially during the foragers'-training, in view of the technique the authors used for that training (which Greggers also explained to me).The authors state in print that they never saw any upwind zigzags in the radar tracks. I have not, however, been able to obtain an answer to my question whether the un-tracke= d new bees that arrived at the experimental feeder-site, also arrived without any upwind zigzag. The 3 British authors would not know the answer, because they were busy with the radar equipment. The only ones with access to the information are Menzel, or Greggers, or both. They have so far declined to respond. Now, get me the answer to this question, and I just might be able to say something more definite about the possibility that the feeder-stand was contaminated by odors. Incidentally, I am not nitpicking at all. I am dealing with a sensational D= L hypothesis, that concerns the very foundations of the whole field of Behavioral Science, that was STILLBORN, more than 80 years ago, thanks to v= . Frisch's own, first study on honeybee-recruitment (published in an extensive summary in 1923). Nothing can revive a stillborn hypothesis. And any new claim of an experimental confirmation of such a hypothesis, must be very, very carefully examined. -- Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 20:40:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics Excellant Queens In-Reply-To: <20060226015526.90639.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As long as this box has been opened I'm going to pose a question for all to ponder, and to respond, hopefully. What are some good traits to look for and breed for in a good queen? I know a few: 1. brood production 2. hive production 3. mite tollerance 4. locality acclimation 5. docility 6. minimal queen supercedure What are some others? In selecting for these traits does one start with a few and keep adding others as selection allows? Dee mentioned 18 traits. Are there more? As we list, let's all respond why we would select for a certain trait or why we, personally, would not bother with that trait. Remember some traits important to some of us would not even be considered by others of us. I have a buddy who is really impressed with the cordovan trait and what he considers the attached docility of the strain. I won't debate the connection, but he considers both important traits and and wants to add some queens from this line to his yards. I can see the cordovan trait valuable as an indicator for the infusion of bees from other strains (Africans). Other than that, the color would be unimportant to me. Think we could get a pretty good discussion going on this if we remember to respect the opinions of others and remember that they are opinions and not cut in rock doctrines. Mike in Lower Alabama --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:13:48 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics Excellant Queens In-Reply-To: <20060226044040.36749.qmail@web53407.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike & all Mike posed a list of qualities he likes > 1. brood production > 2. hive production > 3. mite tollerance > 4. locality acclimation > 5. docility > 6. minimal queen supercedure I would modify this as follows (for UK at latitude 53 deg)... 1. docility and ease of working 2. brood production in line with availability of forage 3. ability to forage at low temperature and low light levels 3a. honey yield (only occurs if point 3 is satisfied) 4. mite tolerance 5. wintering ability/suitability in prevailing climate 6. minimum swarming, but maximum use of queenright supersedure. There are many other characters that I select for, that are aimed at improving/maintaining the genetics of the strain of bees, but the ones above would be basic requirements. I put docility at the top of the list, because it allows more colonies to be kept for a given labour input. Mite tolerance is likely to move up or down the list as treatments and management vary with ongoing years. By queenright supersedure, I mean that both mother and daughter lay together for weeks, months or years. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:47:37 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Correction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Ruth and All I'll have to quote a little, so here's hoping that the moderators don't mind :-) > The authors provide few details, and only one track, > about the tracked bees that presumably did search for > attractive odors. The authors provided plots of the tracks of around 36 bees, each of which had been selected to have just watched a waggle dance for the first time. The tracks are indeed in a fan-shape, with the centre of the fan directly in line with the feeder (or, in the case of displaced bees, where the feeder would have been). Nothing can explain these direct, purposeful flights except an understanding of the location of the food from the dance, particularly when you consider the behaviour of the displaced bees and the wind direction during the experiment. All tracks get a little erratic in the region of the feeder, after they have flown the approximate distance. One describes a small semi-circle. Another (one of the displaced bees) just flies in a double s-shape at the end of its run. You can't decide from that that one bee was seeking a known odour and the others were not. > But the search is described as occurring in arcs. This > is not at all the way regular recruits are expected to > search for odors, according to v. Frisch's DL hypothesis. I puzzled about what you mean here for a bit. Most flights were direct and essentially straight until the bees seemed to become unsure towards the end of their flight when movements were more random. But perhaps seven of the displaced bees described a N-pointing arc at the end of their flight. Why just the displaced ones? At that point, their flights are taking them near their hive (to the N), which they would have expected to have been far behind them. Presumably, as they recognised home and realised where they were, they naturally curved towards the hive? As I said previously, I have no doubt that odour is one of the cues that bees use to find food. I would have no problem too with believing that von Frisch's understanding was imperfect. For example, some of the research on the air-borne transmission of sound which conveys information on the geometry of the dance in the dark would be unknown to him. > All the samples the authors obtained are, however, > far too small to determine whether the tracks do, > or do not show any semblance of the "fan-formation", > expected according to the DL hypothesis. I'm looking at the 36 tracks now. It looks like a pretty good fan to me! > Under the circumstances Riley et al. should have > tested the DL hypothesis specifically under v. Frisch's > conditions. Instead, they did not, and could not have > done that at all. Can I suggest that the authors were more concerned with developing an experimental design that gave clear-cut answers one way or another? > Do you still view that radar-tracking study as "science of > the highest quality"? Yes I do! You also wrote about scent contaminating feeders, odours from mown grass, and other such stuff. The wind direction in the experiment - and the behaviour of displaced recruits - shows that the bees in the study are not following odour cues. I have to thank you Ruth for raising this issue again. I had been seriously doubting the validity of the dance language - but your return to this forum and another one prompted me to go and read some of the literature myself. It is compelling. Science often advances by folk challenging the established view. Sometimes the establish view collapses, and sometimes it gets modified in the light of experience and emerges all the stronger. Anyone wishing to decide for themselves what is happening here ought to read the Riley paper. all the best Gavin. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:24:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20060225222322.00900390@pop.gwi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-46BE1C80 > Duct Tape. It's easier to list the things you can't use duct >tape for... One good use for duct tape...Closing holes in supers. Bees usually will refuse to place honey near any large cracks or holes in the corners of supers. It doesn't matter so much with extracted honey, except that the super won't be completely full. With comb honey, it really matters. If the combs aren't finished, they can't be sold as comb. Also, if you use Formic of Oxalic vapors to control varroa, holes in the bee boxes will lower the efficacy of your treatments. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.12/267 - Release Date: 2/22/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:36:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics Excellant Queens In-Reply-To: <20060226044040.36749.qmail@web53407.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-46BE1C80 > good traits to look for and breed for in a good queen? > 6. minimal queen supercedure I would have to ask, do you mean supercedure soon after a new queen is introduced, or supercedure in the normal course of events? I would agree that supercedure of new/young queens is a problem...but probably due to poorly reared/mated queens. On the other hand, successful supercedure to replace an old or failing queen is a trait that should be selected for. Much better trait than colonies that use swarming to requeen the colony. >What are some others? Feed required for winter. Some colonies fill their supers with honey, and place none in the broodnest. These need massive feeding of winter stores...perhaps not such a problem for Mike in Alabama? Colonies that fill their supers and pack the broodnest is a good trait to select for. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.12/267 - Release Date: 2/22/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:51:25 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Useful beekeeping tools MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Y'all, > The taper of the pliers gently and > smoothly wedges the frames apart without the usual disturbance that a hive > tool gives. > As Steve explains it is advantageous at times to sneak a peak or work a colony without undue disturbance, I find the "Maxant Hive Tool" sold by many bee supply companies does the same as Steve describes needle nose pliers do. The hooked end will do the same exact thing gently separating the frames with the added advantage of using lateral leverage. Also the hooked end can be used to put under the frame lug, tipped back it will lift it up for help in getting that first frame out when inspecting a colony. When in a hurry it also facilitates working fast. In addition to making separating and lifting frames easy this specially designed hive tool has all the advantages of normal hive tools having the scraper on it too. Since getting it and using it for many years it is the only hive tool for inspections I find I need making it the only tool in my pocket. The first one I got was a gift from Maxant Industries when I purchased my Maxant horizontal honey extractor. Here's some links that shows one, I have the ten inch one. http://www.dadant.com/catalog/images/M00856l.jpg http://betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=532 http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_29&products_id=55&osCsid=f1633bfc104af5cf7704aacdcf5f9a0d http://www.mid-conagri.com/5104-3.HTM . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:43:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics Excellant Queens In-Reply-To: <20060226044040.36749.qmail@web53407.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:40 PM 2/25/06 -0800, you wrote: >What are some good traits to look for and breed for in a good queen? Here's a list of 26 traits which can ostensibly be selected for. It was put forth and discussed over on Beesource recently. Not being a bee breeder but interested in it nonetheless, I only offer these here for the sake of discussion. I'm not personally prepared to argue/defend them! 1. EGG LAYING RATE 2. EGG VIABILITY RATE 3. BROOD CYCLE TIME 4. BROOD NURTURING 5. FORAGING AGGRESSIVENESS 6. TIME OF FORAGING 7. DISEASE RESISTANCE 8. PEST RESISTANCE 9. DEFENSIVE BEHAVIOR 10. SWARMING TENDENCY 11. WINTER HARDINESS 12. LIFE SPAN 13. BODY SIZE 14. SENSE OF SMELL 15. HYGIENIC CLEANING BEHAVIOR 16. TIME OF BROOD DEVELOPMENT 17. THRIFT 18. HONEY ARRANGEMENT 19. POLLEN COLLECTION 20. TYPE OF HONEY COLLECTED 21. COMB BUILDING 22. CAPPING STRUCTURE 23. PROPOLIS COLLECTION 24. BRACE COMB CONSTRUCTION 25. ABDOMINAL COLOR 26. ANTENNAE STRUCTURE The discussion can be found at: http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=0 00453;p=1#000001 George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:54:13 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: AHB in U.S. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob, >>Several of the lines I talked about I am evaluating for commercial beekeepers. I just had an idea: how about having Dee send you a dozen or two of her queens for your evaluation? I trust your evaluations. Since you've test many different lines, you'd be able to report on a relative comparison. How about it? This is provided, of course, that Dee would be willing to send the queens. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:45:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: useful tools Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A goose wing for brushing bees off a frame, inner cover etc. Does not irritate bees as a spearing nylon bristle brush. And it's so much faster. I could not find white goose wing ends in the US so I had someone bring me a couple from Europe. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 14:23:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Correction MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline ----- Original Message ----- From: Gavin Ramsay Date: Sunday, February 26, 2006 6:47 am Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Correction > > The authors provide few details, and only one track, > > The authors provided plots of the tracks of around 36 bees, Would this page contain a reasonable representation of the the graph of which you speak? If so, it would apprear that the authors do provide a number of tracks and not merely a single track. http://acp.eugraph.com/news/news05/riley.html Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 15:21:38 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: THe radar-tracking study by Riley et al. (Nature, May 12, 2005) Gavin said: > That paper happens to be sitting on my desktop... The full text is just a click away for anyone in the mood to give it a read. http://www.neurobiologie.fu-berlin.de/menzel/Pub_AGmenzel/Riley,Greggers,Smith,R eynolds,Menzel_Nature_2005.pdf I don't need to "comment" on any of this, as the paper (actually, a "letter" to Nature) speaks for itself. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:52:17 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Correction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Would this page contain a reasonable representation of the the graph of > which you speak? Yes, that is the plot from the Nature paper. The figure in Nature has some additional information in an inset, that is all. Thank you Keith! I had considered breaking copyright, and putting an image of this plot on the net somewhere for all to see ..... it is so hard to describe everything in words. best wishes Gavin. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 12:43:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics Excellant Queens Comments: To: deealusby1@aol.com In-Reply-To: <20060226044040.36749.qmail@web53407.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike writes: In selecting for these traits does one start with a few and keep adding others as selection allows? Dee mentioned 18 traits. Reply: I could probably write a paragraph on each one but here is a simple general list of categories for the good comparing straight yellow to blacks in reading old archives and consolidation of information (as a bee by any name is still yellow or black, small or big, tropical or temperate): 1. Colour 2. Largeness of brood pattern 3. Lack of disease 4. Body uniformity 5. Lack of crossbrace 6. Lack of swarming 7. Body size 8. Honey gathering capabilities 9. Hive defense (for the good)(pests, predators, diseases) 10. Hours of flight (worker/drone) 11. Managability 12. Pollen gathering capabilities 13. Robbing capacity (for the good) 14. Early and pre-flow build-ups 15. Weak flow and winter carryover (brood and strength) 16. Cluster ability and fanning ability 17. Propolizing abilities 18. Broodnest priming abilities (getting ready,sterilization) Now list for the bad: 1. Colour 2. Cluster ability and fanning ability 3. Swarming 4. Honey gathering capabilities in complete-flow shutoffs (long drought with little water, forage not blooming for the most part) 5. Hive defense in summer vs winter conditions/drought conditions 6. Hours of flight (worker/drone) 7. Early and pre-flow build-ups (will they build-up on stored-up stores now granulated) 8. Weak flow and winter carryover (amount of brood and strength) 9. Drone rearing cutoff times 10. Queen rearing parameters (supercedure vs swarming) Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 15:38:30 -0500 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: useful tools In-Reply-To: <20060226.104613.29586.361201@webmail65.nyc.untd.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit waldignetzerocom wrote: > A goose wing for brushing bees off a frame, inner cover etc. Does not irritate bees as a spearing nylon bristle brush. And it's so much faster. Ah! Finally, a way to combine two of my passions, Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers and beekeeping....just happen to have some goose wings to try, would Canada Geese work? My favorite tool is the zip lock bag, for feeding, as a pastry bag for pollen substitute/syrup/vegetable oil paste, stapled to hive to protect index cards for notes, for dropping drone brood into to evaluate closely later for immature mites etc, for handing out pollen substitute as door prizes at meetings, for keeping a disposable bee suit 'just in case', etc etc.... Carolyn in SC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 14:41:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Propolis Protects Human Spermatozoa from DNA Damage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Propolis Protects Human Spermatozoa from DNA Damage Life Sciences, Volume 78, Issue 13 , 23 February 2006, Pages 1401-1406 Abstract: Many environmental, physiological and genetic factors have been implicated in defective sperm function, the most common cause of infertility. In addition, sperm preparation techniques such as centrifugation, used prior to in vitro fertilization, are associated with the generation of reactive oxygen species (ROS) and an increase in the level of DNA damage. Factors that can offer spermatozoa protection are, therefore, of great importance. This study was designed to examine in vitro the effect of a Chilean propolis ethanolic extract on human spermatozoa treated with benzo[a]pyrene and exogenous reactive oxygen species. . . The propolis extract was shown to possess the capacity to protect sperm membrane from the deleterious action of oxidative attack, reducing TBARS formation and LDH release. . . For full abstract, see Apitherapy News: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:18:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Useful tools MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 26/02/2006 05:02:37 GMT Standard Time, Kathy Cox writes: And manipulation cloth is cool. I keep extra inner covers with me so I can cover all bees that are "open." I take the first frame out and lay it across the top of the hive instead of a cover cloth. Cover cloths work fine but can carry disease, if there is any, from hive to hive. Somebody I know keeps his soaked in a household disinfectant to prevent this and it also drives the bees down without making them aggressive. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:26:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL BOEHM Subject: hfcs--dilution? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, Maples are in full bloom and feed time has come here in north = carolina.My sugar supply has run just about out and I got a supply of = hfcs 55. Never having used this before I tried some straight out and it = set up in 48 hours, in the feeders, like a grainey paste and the bees = dont seem interested. Dumb question 1, is this product supposed to be = diluted? I could find no references to diluting in the archives.=20 Any help would be appreciated. Dumb question 2. My shipment of quart jars with the boxes marked quart = are actually 1 litre jars, until i filled one I would not of noticed, = they look like all the rest of the canning jars. Has anybody here in the = states got a recent shipment and checked them? AL Boehm Columbus NC USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:03:35 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Continuation: Comments: To: Ruth Rosin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Riley et al., however, very deliberately EXCLUDED THE USE OF ANY SCENTED FOOD. And, of course, as I pointed out, HAD THEY USED SCENTED FOOD THEIR PRESUMABLY DISCOVERED DL WOULD QUICKLY DISAPPEAR INTO THIN AIR. please forgive my ignorance , but it seems, that the omission of this condition simply and only fails to demonstrate whether the bees would reject a food source if it were the wrong odor. I don't see how this would automatically preclude DL, but would only limit the experiment to one that isn't observing rejection based on scent. The waggle dance merely points the recruits and re-recruits in the right direction (regardless whether it be accurate or as obtuse as 180°) and the general distance. Scent is recognized as early as von Frisch as being the final homing element. However, one of the items you failed to mention is color and intensity of color. Given two or more otherwise equal food sources, the bees tend to select those associated with brighter colors, red and black being selected least and ultraviolet being highest in the order of selection. What are your observations with this? Just as you pointed out, you can't eliminate a factor, and discount it simply because you didn't measure it. In forage selection of wondering (circling) unrecruited bees, color is the first impression the bees have. The bees will check points that stand out against their visible field and background. The bees don't know the point is a flower or bit of unimportant color until they check. There is a TON more about forage selection than just scent or dancing, color, sweetness, etc. All of these factors contribute to a system that works to make the bees more efficient than random scavengers. -- Scot McPherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 20:49:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Natural chemicals that occur in honey > Fume boards, when used properly, do no harm. Quite true. > ...butyric acid occurs naturally in honey, The statement above echoes a misconception. Butyric Acid is not sold as a "bee repellent". Butyric Anhydride is what is in bottles of "Bee-Go", "Honey Robber", "Bee Repel", and so on. Butyric Anhydride is anything but a "natural chemical that occurs in honey". Butyric Acid is C3H7CO2H Butyric Anhydride is C8H14O3 Very different chemicals. Butyric Acid does not have nearly as objectionable an odor as Butyric Anhydride, nor does it carry anywhere near the hazard warnings, health warnings, and Haz-Mat transportation restrictions. While some percentage of Butyric Anhydride hydrolyzes to butyric acid when exposed to air (and/or with the application of heat), not all of it does, and the Butyric Anhydride can be directly detected in bottled honey so harvested by anyone who bothers to run the tests. (I think Bee Culture ran an article on the issue of trace-level contamination in honey in 2005. I think it was Mark Winston who wrote it.) > That's why these particular chemicals were selected: > because they are already in honey. There is no possibility at all for the synthetic chemical Butyric Anhydride to ever naturally appear in honey. It only exists as a ***synthetic*** chemical. More to the point, at least in the USA, there is no excuse for letting Butyric Anhydride anywhere near any food intended for human consumption, as outlined here: http://www.mdbee.com/articles/diseasecontrols.html (Scroll down to the section on "Bee-Go") Butyric Anhydride simply is no longer permitted in any "food-use" application. There was an EPA "exemption from the requirement for a tolerance" (much the same as a tolerance) for Butyric Anhydride in honey, but this exemption was revoked by the EPA back in 1998. As Butyric Anhydride is not "food grade", nor is it "generally recognized as safe", any human food exposed to any amount of Butyric Anhydride in any way would be considered "adulterated" under FDA rules, and cannot be sold for human consumption. Further no honey adulterated by Butyric Anhydride be "processed" in an attempt to remove the adulteration (such as by heating), as this would be "criminal fraud" atop "adulteration". The honey would only be suitable for animal feed. So, for those who might still use Butyric Anhydride, what part of the statement "No Food Use" is unclear? :) The only good news is that the EPA and FDA under the current US administration are not about to "enforce" much of anything. The EPA is much more likely to approve drilling for oil in your beeyard. :) Details For The Picky ===================== The EPA revoked the specific "exemption from the requirement for a tolerance" for butyric anhydride, and this left butyric anhydride with no "approved food use", as the EPA and FDA list it only as a "pesticide used in animal feed". The EPA issued final rules that announced the revocation of tolerances for residues of pesticides associated with canceled food uses. Notice of the proposed actions for these final rules were published in the Federal Register on 1/21/98 and 2/5/98, and the final rule became effective on 1/25/99. (The EPA persisted in using the synonym "Butanoic Anhydride" for the name of the chemical, but it is the same stuff, regardless.) http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/tolerance/pdf_files/revoked_tolerances.PDF (page 8) The purveyors of Butyric Anhydride might do some hand-waving and point to the language that still exists in the EPA regulations stating that a product intended to force bees from the hives for the collection of a honey crop is not a pesticide. While this certainly is true, this language does not give anyone permission to use anything other than a food-grade or "generally recognized as safe" (GRAS) substance unless there is a specific tolerance established for the substance by EPA or FDA. So, while Butyric Anhydride may not be "a pesticide" in the context of honey harvesting, it is also not permitted for use in any connection with food for humans unless someone overtly says so. In the interest of full disclosure, I do run Fischer Alchemy, makers of a product that raises funds for the Eastern Apicultural Society Bee Research Fund named "Bee-Quick", an all-natural, 100% food-grade, 100% "GRAS", non-toxic, honey harvesting product that obsoleted the smelly and toxic Butyric Anhydride. http://bee-quick.com But not to worry, there is no conflict of interest here. I don't care what you use, I am a strong supporter of "to each his own". If it ever starts to make any serious money, I'll drop the price rather than pocket any profits myself. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:06:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Availability of Medium Crimp Wired Foundation - Dadant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all: Wanted to let you know that there was an error of omission in the Dadant wholesale beekeeping catalog I received. It doesn't show the 5 5/8 medium super sized 4.9 crimp wire, but like I said, that was an error of omission. You have to order 50 sheets though,and the order number is F353503SC with the cost $54.90. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:25:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: david flathman Subject: drone density In-Reply-To: <20060227020604.83262.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed here in charleston sc the bees are flying pretty vigorously. and flowers are starting to bloom. last year the small hive beetles took me from 15 hives down to 5 and i am eager to divide some of the hives and get things started. so when will there be enough drones to properly fertilize the virgin queens. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 07:29:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herve Abeille Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics Excellant Queens I could probably write a paragraph on each one but here is >a simple general list of categories for the good comparing >straight yellow to blacks in reading old archives and >consolidation of information (as a bee by any name is still >yellow or black, small or big, tropical or temperate): As I and others have repeatedly shown, color in honey bees is cosmetic and does not relate to any other performance factor. When the Italians were first imported into the US, they showed a wide range of color. In their native county they still do. In the US bees have been selected for color as a marketing choice. People *expect* Italians to be orange and Caucasians and Carniolans to be black. A knowledgeable bee researcher I know told me that some of these queen breeders which produce both types sort them when caging. If it is black, it sells as a Carny, if orange its an Italian. Having worked with both types over the years I can tell you that golden Italians can produce large colonies, can produce huge crops of honey, can be just as gentle as any breed. I have seen dark bees that were mean as hornets, and just sat there all summer long and didn't do squat. So I will say again, color in honey bees does not correlate to anything. It's like color in labrador retrievers: you've got yellow ones, brown ones, black ones. Whatever you like. H A -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 07:51:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: hfcs--dilution? In-Reply-To: <004201c63b2c$175e1780$1702a8c0@terminator> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-67FE4F48 > Maples are in full bloom here in north carolina. Is this the average date of Maple bloom in North Carolina, or are they early this year? Here in Vermont, the Speckled Alder have enlarged catkins, the Soft maple buds are swollen, and the Pussy Willow buds are white. All due, I would say, to the warm winter we have had. > I got a supply of hfcs 55. and it set up in 48 hours is this product > supposed to be diluted? 48 hours seems too quick for HFCS 55 to "set up." Was it crystal clear when you filled the feeders, or was it cloudy? I use 55 straight for fall feeding, and don't have that problem. I would say it was starting to crystallize before you filled the feeders, or you have 42 HFCS...which crystallizes much faster. I believe I've read on this list, that some dilute their HFCS by 10% with water. If you do have 55, you can heat it until clear, and I would think the bees would empty their feeders before it crystallizes. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 2/24/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 08:49:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard Kogan Subject: Useful Tools Lots of good ideas coming through. One I haven't seen yet is to use cheap roofing shingles in front of the hive to keep weeds down. Another is concrete blocks under hives to get them up high enough for us graybeards to lift off supers with less strain on the back. A lenth of 1/4" dowel with a 4" by 1/2" strip of cooper or galvanized metal attached to one end makes a good tool for sweeping any dead bees off the bottom board in winter. Also a strip of 1/2" hardware cloth across the hive entrance will keep the mice out. Howard -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 11:24:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: david browder Subject: Re: hfcs--dilution? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > > Maples are in full bloom here in north carolina. > > Is this the average date of Maple bloom in North Carolina, or are they > early this year? ---------I'm thinking it's right on schedule here but this is a looong state.Decades ago I used to drive a truck all over N.C.. IMHO there's a full month's time between Wilmington and Boone "Blooming". My favorite delivery run in the early Spring was the Albemarle area in the Yadkin River Valley. Always seems to be bout two weeks ahead of where I'm at in the W-S/ Greensboro area. Springtime can never be too soon. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 08:29:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics Excellant Queens In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Herve writes: So I will say again, color in honey bees does not correlate to anything. It's like color in labrador retrievers: you've got yellow ones, brown ones, black ones. Whatever you like. Reply: Except in Nature by latitude and longitude breakout. But to each his own preferences and point of views. We'll see in the long-run who survives. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:16:48 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: useful tools Comments: To: wwfarm@WCTEL.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...just happen to have some goose wings to try, would Canada Geese work? I don't see why it would not. Swipe with the under side of the wing towards the comb/bees. (I have never liked how bees got stuck in brush hairs...) BTW, you don't need the entire wing - just the the tip of the wing: about a couple of inches worth with a dozen or so feathers. The black/dark coloring of the Canada goose feathers might irritate the bees but you won't know until you try. Domestic white feathers are just fine. Please let me know how it works out for you. A friend of mine is also a wild goose hunter - a good source of wing tips. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:20:32 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Useful Tools Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A sturdy handtruck is priceless for moving a hive a couple feet or more or for loading hives onto a truck bed. It's also greater for laying a hive down to separate the bottom board for thorough spring cleaning. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 14:55:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: useful tools In-Reply-To: <20060227.101725.29964.366281@webmail57.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7F541AAA > Swipe with the under side of the wing towards the comb/bees. (I have > never liked how bees got stuck in brush hairs...) With all the talk about how the standard nylon bristle bee brush stabs the bees, or how the bees get caught in the bristles, I wonder if the brush is being used correctly. I use a nylon bristle bee brush, and don't have these problems. Don't brush the bees with a sweeping stroke of the brush. That rolls the bees. They get stuck in the bristles, and get Mad! Instead, use a short flicking motion of the brush. Hold the frame from one end bar, hanging the frame over the hive. Start where you are holding the end bar, and flick an inch or so of bees off with each short stroke, working your way to the other end bar. The flicking motion doesn't roll the bees, but knocks them off their feet, and they fall into the hive. It's all in the wrist. :-) Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 2/24/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 15:59:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: useful tools In-Reply-To: <20060227.101725.29964.366281@webmail57.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:16 PM 2/27/06 GMT, you wrote: >>>...just happen to have some goose wings to try, would Canada Geese work? > >I don't see why it would not. > Just about any wing will do I imagine. I use wild turkey feathers that I find in the woods. I imagine a of any sort would work fine- the bees don't seem to like being brushed off, I don't believe one color or another would be any better or worse. They're certainly better than the drafting brushes which do seem to trap bees, if not skewer them. George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 13:52:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics Excellant Queens In-Reply-To: <20060227162935.89967.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Herve: You can also add altitude to, for watching things change. But you know I went back and read what you wrote about sorting bees and color and nothing else mentioned for traits/characteristics of the bees themselves, and/or habits..........and I am saddened. respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 22:26:20 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: useful tools and a start to a new season... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike, >>...flick an inch or so of bees off with each short stroke, working your way to the other end bar. I've tried brisk flicking with a nylon brush. Definitely a slow process. Have you ever used feathers? They have the perfect ratio of edge flexibilty and overall stiffness for a very efficient operation. Goose wing feathers are the perfect length for a deep frame. I don't shake/thump the frames to get most of the bees off (I feel it may dislodge/harm the larvae in the cells - it can definitely harm the queen if she hits a frame top the wrong way...) so if a frame has a thick layer of bees, brushing is a slow process. With a wing, I can easily sweep a bunch of bees off at a time without making them angry. It also takes a bit of wrist practice. :) The feathers are great at dislodging adult bees that are partially in the cells without harming them. Brush bristles don't have enough stiffness to get the partially submerged bees out in one stroke. You ought to try it. Another plus: if you have access to a source, goose wing tips can be had for free... unlike a brush. :) BTW, my bees started to raise brood at the end of January (a bit early but we've had a mild winter) and a week ago I saw them coming back one day with multi-colored pollen (definitely very early for mid-February in this neck of the woods). I saw a few crocuses open up a few days ago. Now it's back to freezing weather once more... I treated half of my hives with double the oxalic acid concentration (same as last year) and the other half with the prescribed concentration in November. At this point all the queens are doing fine and laying. It would appear my queen problems from a year ago, were due to another factor. It's hard for me to attribute it to the August treatment with Sucrocide a year ago but this is the only difference between that year and last year. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:42:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL BOEHM Subject: Re: hfcs--dilution? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "david browder" To: Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 2:24 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] hfcs--dilution? >> > Maples are in full bloom here in north carolina. >> >> Is this the average date of Maple bloom in North Carolina, or are they >> early this year? ---------I'm thinking it's right on schedule here but > I am in the foothills of the mountains on the South Carolina border south of asheville. The bloom is right on time. The weather is a bit warm all winter. In some years we have had swarms on the first day of march. Other years late march to early april. Bees are building up fast at this time. AL BOEHM COLUMBUS NC USA ps thanks for the info maybe I will cut som hfcs by 10 % It is all fresh and clear until it goes in the feeder. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 19:30:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: compliance summary for honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Latest results of chemical residues in honey. http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/fssa/microchem/resid/2004-2005/anima_hme.shtml Canadian Food Inspection Agency monitors residues in domestic and imported honey. Interesting reading. Also available in French. Peter ( not yet using short URL ) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 16:42:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: hfcs--dilution? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060227074410.012bb998@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Palmer wrote:If you do have 55 , you can heat it until clear, and I would think the bees would empty their feeders before it crystallizes. Mike Heated my HFS55 in the oven at 140 degrees. Took about four hours for it to all reliquify. Mike in LA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 15:21:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Cox Subject: Re: Useful Tools In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have a different approach to keeping weeds down. Used carpet turned upside down. The webbing on top and the plush turned to the underside works very well and lasts a long time!!! Kathy Cox ~ Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets At 05:49 AM 2/27/2006, you wrote: >Lots of good ideas coming through. One I haven't seen yet is to use cheap >roofing shingles in front of the hive to keep weeds down. Another is >concrete blocks under hives to get them up high enough for us graybeards to >lift off supers with less strain on the back. >A lenth of 1/4" dowel with a 4" by 1/2" strip of cooper or galvanized metal >attached to one end makes a good tool for sweeping any dead bees off the >bottom board in winter. Also a strip of 1/2" hardware cloth across the >hive entrance will keep the mice out. Howard > >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 19:39:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: hfcs--dilution? In-Reply-To: <002c01c63bf7$6e866460$1702a8c0@terminator> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "david browder" Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 2:24 PM >> > Maples are in full bloom here in north carolina. Went down the bottom portion of I-65 in Alabama and west across I-10 to Slidell, Louisiana this weekend, twice. Sunday really noticed the red maple bloom. Looked like patches of bright red in otherwise drab brown. Never noticed it so intensely red before. May be because I wasn't really looking for red maple bloom. It was really interesting to see just how much red maple there really was out there. Didn't think there was that much maple down here in the southern regions, but surely did find out differently this weekend. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 00:12:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Note MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Re: The radar-tracking study by Riley et al (in Nature 2005). I forgot to mention that within the maximal expense of $10, for a very good= , and very simple test of the honeybee "dance language" (DL) hypothesis, you need to include some paint and a tiny applicator, to daub a dot of paint on the back of each of your (10, or so) trained foragers, in order to distinguish them from new-arrivals. A little bottle of nail-polish, or "white-out" liquid (used to correct typos made by a manual typewriter), wit= h the little brush attached inside, will do. -- Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:45:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Daniel Adam Subject: Re: useful tools In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20060227155925.0097d380@pop.gwi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use white swan(cygnus) feathers, they are real large feathers and easy to find... just ask anyone who performs a sport on or near a place with swans, they find them every day. Greetings, Daniel Switzerland (snowing right now) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 12:24:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Predrag Cvetkovic Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics Excellant Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, could you explain categories from the list below in brief, only with a sentence? Thanks in advance. Predrag > 7. Body size > 13. Robbing capacity (for the good) > 14. Early and pre-flow build-ups > 16. Cluster ability and fanning ability > > Now list for the bad: > > 2. Cluster ability and fanning ability > 4. Honey gathering capabilities in complete-flow shutoffs > (long drought with little water, forage not blooming for > the most part) > 5. Hive defense in summer vs winter conditions/drought > conditions > 7. Early and pre-flow build-ups (will they build-up on > stored-up stores now granulated) > 8. Weak flow and winter carryover (amount of brood and > strength) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 08:36:26 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Re: useful tools MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo bee friends, George Fergusson wrote: > > I don't believe one color or another would > be any better or worse. I use black feathers lost by some crows. I usually pick them up crossing a forest. These feathers are softer and my bees are irritated less than using geese feathers. I saw many local beekeepers using geese wings and I also started using them being novice. But I refused using them soon because they used to make my bees mad. Sincerely Rimantas Zujus Lithuanian Energy Institute Breslaujos 3 Kaunas, LT-44403 Lithuania FAX: (370 7) 35 12 71 e-mail : rizujus@mail.lei.lt ICQ 4201422 Phone: (370 7) 40 18 85 http://www.lei.lt/ http://lab14.lei.lt/~zujus/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 12:01:35 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Note In-Reply-To: <7dd5575e0602272112te22c780p50264cd976b87f8b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ruth > you need to include some paint and a tiny applicator, to daub a > dot of paint on the back of each of your (10, or so) trained > foragers, in order to distinguish them from new-arrivals. That would introduce other variables including the (rather strong) odour of the paint. What is wrong with recording the numbers that are already on the worker's backs ? There are unlikely to be any stray workers from other sources with such numbers, so there is no room for confusion. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 14:19:01 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Continuation: > Riley et al., however, very deliberately > EXCLUDED THE USE OF ANY SCENTED FOOD. > HAD THEY USED SCENTED FOOD THEIR PRESUMABLY > DISCOVERED DL WOULD QUICKLY DISAPPEAR INTO THIN AIR. > ...Under such conditions the mowed grass might not have > dried enough to lose all odor-traces for honeybees... So, let's get this straight: Whenever someone sets up a foraging test using scented feed, Ruth will criticize the test as being nothing but a demonstration of "odor" as the actual mechanism used by the bees get to the feeder. On the other hand, when care is taken to avoid scents, Ruth claims that if scents would have been used, the dancing would somehow be irrelevant, due to the presence of odors. Even when the wind direction is such that the bees are flying "downwind" to the feeder, this is not sufficient for Ruth. On yet another hand (we are running out of hands here) Ruth insists that the odor of grass might somehow be sufficient alone to provide bees with an odor to "home in" upon (but not always find) an unscented feeder, even though the same odor would be present over a very large area, at least as large as, perhaps larger than the entire area of the bee flight range being tracked. (If this were true, bees would not be flying directly to the general area of the feeder, with some fraction of the total bees unable to find the feeder itself.) To summarize, Ruth's stated views appear to be that if scents are overtly used, odor is the mechanism used, not dance. If no scents are overtly used, then the data is somehow invalid due to the lack of odor, except that she also wishes to simultaneously claim that odors of things like grass are actually being used to ALMOST locate a unique unscented feeder in a unique location within a large area permeated by this consistent odor, even when the feeder is downwind of the hive. To summarize the summary, there appears to be no possible test that will satisfy Ruth, as her criticisms are appear to be contradictory, mutually exclusive, and do not explain the actual flight paths of the bees tracked. Even a test where the bees are apparently "fooled" by being released away from the hive into flying downwind to a location where there is no feeder is apparently insufficient in Ruth's view. James Kilty pointed out that the link I provided to the full text and diagrams of the study currently being critiqued by Ruth was mangled by the listserv. He provided this shorter link that should survive the attack of the line-wrap monster. http://www.honeybee.neurobiologie.fu-berlin.de/column/publications.html (The specific paper is number "21", at the top of the web page.) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:18:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herve Abeille Subject: How the Honey Bee got its Colors In his book "In Search of the Best Strains of Bees" Brother Adam wrote: "The Egyptian bee is undoubtedly one of the primary races from which came the orange varieties of the Near East, that is the Syrian, Cyprian, Cilician, and possibly the Armenian." This has been corroborated , as DNA has shown that the bees of Egypt, Italy and the Balkans constitute one lineage. Brother Adam did not include the Carniolan strain, but it is known that it sometimes shows yellowish coloration, and the DNA establishes the genetic link to Egypt. Brother Adam had a slightly unconventional explanation of the origin of the European black bees. He stated: "The Tellian bee, the native bee of Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco is another of the primary races. This coal black bee is the source of the numerous sub-varieties which spread via the Iberian Peninsula, Central Europe, and Northern Asia. This would include the black bee of Sicily." (1) The countervailing idea is that Apis mellifera mellifera is a separate lineage from the bees of northwestern Africa and southern Spain, but that view is no longer universally held. Following the idea that bees may have come into Western Europe from north Africa is this from a recent study: "Apis mellifera is composed of three evolutionary branches including mainly African (branch A), West and North European (branch M) and South-East European (branch C) populations. The existence of morphological clines extending from the equator to the polar circle through Morocco and Spain raised the hypothesis that the branch M originated in Africa. Analyzing 11 populations sampled along a transect France - Spain/Portugal - Morocco - Guinea ... we show that Iberian populations are very similar to French populations when considering microsatellite markers." (2) It had already been known that the bees from southeastern Africa (scutellata, capensis, unicolor) are closely related to iberica and intermissa (Spain and Morocco) as well as to unicolor, the bee of Madagascar. This group is branch A, mentioned above. Unicolor, iberica and intermissa are all dark black and have characteristic African DNA. (3) So from the foregoing it can be seen that all three lineages may have in fact come into Europe from Africa and the various colors were already established in the tropics, disputing the idea that bees are darker only in colder regions and that this coloration is "caused by" or is an adaptation to cold. For that to be confirmed, one would also have to show that a darker color produces some particular advantage to the colony. This has never been demonstrated. So, the color of bees isn't related to latitude or climate. Ashleigh Milner wrote: "The different races of A.mellifera can generally be differentiated in physiological terms. Bees from warmer climates tend to be smaller in size and lighter in colour than those adapted to the colder regions, although this rule is not invariable. " Actually, it is not even true. Both dark and light colored bees can be found all over the world so the statement is a gross oversimplification, at best. As a side note is this on a variety of Apis cerana: "In South Sulawesi [Indonesia, close to the equator] there are two very different populations of Apis cerana. The coastal form is very small, black and extremely defensive whereas the interior form from the higher and more forested regions is at least 50% larger, yellow, and relatively gentle." (3) sources: 1 "In Search of the Best Strains of Bees" Brother Adam 2 "The origin of West European subspecies of honeybees" Franck, P., Garnery L., Solignac M., Cornuet J. M., 1998 3 "Diversity in the Genus Apis" edited by Deborah Roan Smith (Westview Press, 1991) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:36:00 -0500 Reply-To: Buckner Lewis Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Re: hfcs--dilution? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maple here in N. Florida started about the first week in February along with the wild plum and pears.. I read somewhere that the seasons travel about 15 miles per day. Seems reasonable. Orange blossom coming on , putting supers on tomorrow down in the Polk County, Fl, area.. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 08:07:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: useful tools and a start to a new season... In-Reply-To: <20060227.142647.24282.367615@webmail23.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3131161B >a nylon brush. Definitely a slow process. >Have you ever used feathers? No, I never have, but if my neighbor can get me a Goose wing...he likes killing things both large and small...but for some reason doesn't like the sound of my Blue Ticks...I will give it a try. I don't use a brush very often, either. There are two instances though, where brushing is important to me. First, is in grafting. I brush the bees off the comb containing the young larvae to prevent them from being dislodged. Second, is to remove the bees from the ripe cells when removing the cell bar frame from the cell building colony. I can see how feathers would be quicker, and will try a goose wing for the grafting frame. What about with the cell bar frame. Would a Goose wing get into all the spaces around the cells? > I don't shake/thump the frames to get most of the bees off - it can > definitely harm the queen if she hits a frame top the wrong way...) I shake a huge amount of bees off frames each year. All my nucs are made by shaking bees off frames. Most of my requeens are performed this way, too, using the top brood box as my requeening nuc. Sometimes I shake the bees onto the top bars, and sometimes I shake the bees onto a landing board in front of the hive, so the bees and the queen will run back into the hive. After some 25 years of shaking bees in this way, I can say I've never seen queen damage. When brushing bees off a comb, whether by a brush or a feather, don't the bees and queen still fall to the top bars? In this case, how would brushing and shaking differ? > bees started to raise brood at the end of January Now it's back to > freezing weather once more... Here in Vermont, too. I talked to a beekeeper in Montpelier yesterday. He looked at his home yard last week. Said most colonies had a frame of brood. Now, it's back to the deep freeze. Temps were -10F Sunday night, and -5F last night. High on Monday was 15F. Looking forward to April! Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 2/24/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:23:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: hfcs--dilution? In-Reply-To: <20060228033919.999.qmail@web53411.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Red maple blooms in south LA in January what you are looking at is the seed. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 Mike Stoops wrote: Looked like patches of bright red in otherwise drab brown. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:37:56 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Note MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ruth and All Your suggestion to paint foragers visiting the feeder (assuming that is where you propose to find trained foragers) will certainly contaminate them and probably the feeder with odours. This would give sceptics - like yourself -grounds to disbelieve the results. Unless of course you work in situations with carefully monitored wind flow, or you move foragers away from the hive before release, both features of the work of Riley and colleagues. Riley and co went one better than your suggestion. They marked most bees in the colony with numbered tags before the experiment began and so avoided the bias associated with marking bees visiting one site: 'We used a two-frame colony, equipped with a transparent side panel that faced directly into a small, low tent attached to the hive. From within this darkened enclosure we could observe the dance behaviour of the bees, and their entry into and exit from the hive. Most of the bees in the small colony were marked with numbered tags. The entrance to the hive was in the form of a clear plastic tube, so that observers stationed outside the tent could also observe entry and exit, and capture selected bees for tagging with transponders.' It should be clear to everyone now that the Riley and colleagues 'Letter to Nature' is an excellent piece of work and proves to the satisfaction of the great majority of observers that the dance language is the main means of sending recruited foragers off in roughly the right direction for roughly the right distance. Von Frisch made an incredible discovery, and it has big implications for how bees 'think' about their world. But can we move on?! Or would Adrian Wenner, if he's reading this, like to chip in and comment on this recent debate? yours Gavin. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 06:44:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cesar Flores Subject: Useful tools In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...flick an inch or so of bees off with each short stroke, working your way to the other end bar. >>....I've tried brisk flicking with a nylon brush. Definitely a slow process. I also don't like using a brush unless I have to, and then a flick/sweep upwards is more effective-- they jump right off. (another use of old rule "bees move up" or... wouldn't you take-off upwards not downwards if you had wings?) --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 08:14:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: How the Honey Bee got its Colors In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Herve writes: color in honey bees is cosmetic and does not relate to any other performance factor. Reply: Herve, what you just wrote is very good, but what you wrote previously which I state again above does not correlate to what you just wrote.........somehow you just don't see it and how it goes together for latitude, altitude, longitude and climate for coloration breakout. Sorry just my POV. So sad the price industry is paying for random color for "what sales" instead of paying attention to detail for colour for acclimitization/survival. Respectfully submittted Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 19:35:53 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Honeybee colouration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote>>somehow you just don't see it and how it goes together for latitude, altitude, longitude and climate for coloration breakout<< I don't get it as well. Perhaps you could clarify your theory about this. Best regards Roger White Superbee bees Cyprus. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 12:40:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: How the Honey Bee got its Colors In-Reply-To: <20060228161412.60886.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Herve writes: > color in honey bees is cosmetic and does not relate to any > other performance factor. Which makes sense. Otherwise I should be raising AHB in Maine since they are black. But AHB is not a cold weather bee. Italians were the predominate bees in our area before dark bees, so most bees were yellow. Now they are a mix. Genetics would have the major effect here, not environment. According to Herve's paper, hot climate bees are both black and yellow. Even on the Cape you find this. So latitude has little to do with color, just the race of the bee determines that. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 13:47:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: How the Honey Bee got its Colors In-Reply-To: <44048B19.40208@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill writes: Which makes sense. Otherwise I should be raising AHB inMaine since they are black. Reply: Scuts are not black, deeper orange maybe, but not black. Scuts are AHB....... Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group.organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 15:17:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Radar-tracking study by Riley et al. (Nature, May 12, 2005) Comments: cc: "Laszlo Pentek (DISB)" , Barry Birkey , Patrick Wells , james kilty , "W. David Schwaderer" , "Malcolm T. Sanford" , Gary Greenberg In-Reply-To: <004901c63a65$f9cce320$04000005@mshome.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Feb 25, 2006, at 3:48 PM, Gavin Ramsay wrote (in small part): > Wow! That [Riley et al.] paper happens to be sitting on my desktop, > and I'll happily share > my thoughts on it with you all. First of all, a little background. > > I'm a scientist, a crop scientist. Trained (and reasonably successful > as > far as I know) in being objective and perceptive. As a regular journal > reviewer I'm used to reassessing the interpretation scientific authors > put > on their results. The paper Ruth just criticised *is* science of the > highest quality. I find it most impressive. In response, I too am a scientist — a bee scientist for half a century and natural historian in general, with considerable experience in commercial beekeeping. I have also studied the Riley et al. publication on "radar tracking of bees" that has caused such a stir. However, I came up with quite a different assessment than Gavin Ramsey and Jim Fischer and noticed the absence of some essential controls. Most puzzling: can one capture a bee as it is about to leave the hive, glue on a transponder, and then believe that such bee will behave as if nothing had happened? The beekeepers I know don't believe so, and I respect their conclusions. One can see my analysis at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/radar.htm The radar tracking scientists strove to prove their hypothesis true — a most unfortunate experimental approach in the world of science (though such an approach can sometimes yield important results in fields such as physics). Also, both Gavin and Jim surely know that one should not accept results and conclusions from an experiment until some other group has independently replicated the experiment, preferably with tighter controls. Let me provide one example of too ready an acceptance of a study. I studied James Gould's doctoral dissertation and read in one section that he conducted 33 half-hour "misdirection" experiments one summer. In 1974 he published the results from only three of those 33 one-half hour experiments as a "letter" in the journal Nature (252:300-301). However, not even his dissertation includes the results of the other 30 half-hour experiments. Was this a case of "cherry-picking" the evidence? Gould's results were eagerly embraced by those within the bee language belief system, but no one has repeated his experiments and gained similar results — though some have tried (as they have told me). Other researchers I know consider much of Gould's work now discredited. I have a written analysis of the above assertion about Gould's experiments that I can mail to anyone interested. We are all "prisoners of our past," as one of the Pasteur biographers wrote. That is, we view evidence from the perspective of our own indoctrination from earlier years. For the past several decades, the bee language story has appeared everywhere: in nature programs on television, in textbooks at all levels in our schools, etc. Little wonder, then, that such a dogma has become part of our culture. Any evidence in support of such a belief system becomes eagerly grasped, with counter evidence readily dismissed. As Steve Jobs phrased it last year, "Don't be trapped by dogma — which is living with the results of other people's thinking." As I stated earlier on this network, I do not consider that the bee language controversy is about evidence. We all have access to the same evidence but view it from different perspectives according to our prior indoctrination (or lack thereof). Those subscribers new to BEE-L can learn of my long term involvement in the controversy at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm Those who read that account will learn that I was the one who discovered the waggle dance sounds and conducted my doctoral research on the assumption that the bee language story was true. Later, the behavior of the bees themselves indicated to my co-workers and myself that von Frisch's earlier odor-search hypothesis made far more sense. One can now find most of our publications on the matter at BeeSource.com (Point of View). Millions of dollars have now been spent repeatedly trying to prove that bee "language" is real, despite earlier claims by researchers that they have already "proven" the hypothesis true. Wouldn't all that expenditure of time and money be better spent on real problems that beekeepers face every day? Does the performance of only three dozen radar tracked bees finally resolve a controversy that has been with us for four decades already? And what about the vast amount of evidence that doesn't fit with the conclusions of Riley and co-workers? Finally, there is a logical dilemma. During the last 35 years we have been treated to several "conclusive" experiments that point to bee language. Only after someone comes up with yet another "conclusive" experiment do advocates admit that earlier experiments had not "proven" language among bees after all. In a few years I predict that the radar-tracking experiments will also be discarded. Nowadays, I find that most beekeepers I talk with at meetings care very little about the controversy. They have varroa and tracheal mites, small hive beetles, AHB, AFB, dwindling colony strength, low honey prices, and (now) the need for pollination contracts in writing. The bee language hypothesis has not helped them one wit! Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ******************************************************************* "For what a man more likes to be true, he more readily believes." Francis Bacon (1561-1626) ******************************************************************* -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---