From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:26:17 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A70F49065 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEr0Bn013917 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:50 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0603" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 697518 Lines: 15083 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 08:49:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Dance Language Controversy & House hunting Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I have been following the dance language controversy. Some of us are interested in bees as a vocation, some as a science & some just for the interest. I feel as though I cross the gambit as I'm a side liner who is an entomologist and just love bees. I went to a presentation yesterday, that I have seen before, on "House hunting by bees" as given by Dr. Tom Seeley where he explains how scout bees form a consensus by forming a quorum to decide between a good home and a moderate home using the Dance Language. House scouts return & conduct a dance, which based on angle from vertical & dance distance indicate location of prospective future hive site. Could any dance language opponents who have seen Tom's publications on this explain to the group how the directional & distance cues ( angle of the dance from vertical & intensity of the waggle ) relayed to the other home scouts does or does not convey information. Is not the conveyance of this information not a language? This system presumably removes odor from the equation. Tom's study, conducted on a remote island, with only his hive locations seem to prove that he can judge from the dances which distance & hive location the dancers are selecting. He uses small swarms, individually labeled bees & video camera's which he goes back over to remove very specific data for his publications. IMHO it would seem the argument is more over what constitutes a language & not that information is being passed amongst bees. Mike Griggs Entomologist/ Support Scientist Plant Protection Research Unit USDA ARS, U.S. Plant, Soil & Nutrition Lab. Tower Road, Ithaca, NY 14853 http://www.ars.usda.gov/naa/ithaca/ppru phone: 607-255-1085 fax: 607-255-1132 email: mhg3@cornell.edu -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 09:42:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Riley, Odor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Everyone has part of the concept right, but the full answer is not in -- for some very good reasons. First, some background: I know Joe Riley, got DARPA to fly him over for a tracking workshop in TX, then had him up to MT. He has some interesting data. The best is the foraging data by larger bees wearing smaller (fragile) tags (i.e., bumblebees). These bees were left to free forage -- no targets, syrup, etc. And the data shows things that one might expect -- bumblebees will follow topographic features such as a line left by mowing of fields/meadows. Much of the honey bee work was done with a bee carrying a number disc to which was ADDED a tracking chip and vertical antenna. The weight is significant, much less the aerodynamics of the whole things. We've also flown chips on bees. And we've tracked bees with lasers -- no chips at all. Bottom line, carrying a large device with a vertical OR trailing antenna is tricky -- we gave up on our own chips -- decided that the chips had too much effect on bee flight -- it limits their ability to turn, etc. And grabbing them to put the things on is EXTREMELY disruptive. So we now track bees without using anything attached to the bee. Our laser maps of bees searching for targets by odor can be seen online (Optics Express 13 5853). Look for all of the articles by Joe Shaw on the use of LIDAR and lasers. The LIDAR used in the published trials is big, expensive, and non-eye safe. It also can't distinguish one small moving thing from another -- a seed head on a blade of grass moving in the wind from a flying insect. We've now got new, far smaller, eye-safe systems that are being tested at the moment. These have two years of R&D in them already. They work -- and most importantly, the new systems see bees and ONLY bees. Anything else, small or large, moving or static does not appear in the imaging. We'll be field testing prototypes for commercialization this summer. In addition, we have several years of data that demonstrate that the sensitivity of the olfactory system of a bee is in the same ball park as that of a dog, and that there are many similarities. Both can generalize to a suite of related substances, when trained on a common component. Both can detect a broad array of chemicals -- for bees, its not just pheromones and floral scents. And, most importantly, NO ONE knows just how good the olfactory sensitivity of either the bee or the dog is. Why? Because we don't have instruments as good! We have to collect samples for long periods to get enough material for detection (often several minutes up to 1/2 hr). The bees and dogs instantly recognize odors at the same levels. So, in the case of our Ft Leonard Wood trials, bees could find all explosives by searching for the odor of DNT, even though that wasn't the main ingredient of some of the things that were buried. MEASURED vapor levels directly ABOVE the buried landmine(s) were in the order of 5-15 parts per trillion -- determined by collected 30 minute vapor samples -- so that's an average. Also, keep in mind, landmines don't have any reward AND our conditioning occurs at the hive, not in the field. I for one have no interest in strolling through mine fields to look for bees. Both our video and the lasers show bees locking on and tracking odor plume from these vapor sources from many yards away. That means, using even the most conservative plume models, that the bees were recognizing vapor trails in the parts per quadrillion or less. Now, if these huge numbers (actually incredibly small amounts, its the ratio of target odor to air volume that are so large) are hard to grasp, go to the MegaPenny Project Site for illustrations that put this into perspective http://www.kokogiak.com/megapenny/ Ok, so we know bees can detect all kinds of odors at VERY LOW levels. Now, under an Army Contract to our private company, we've been working on bee behavioral responses to very low concentrations of potentially harmful chemicals (but we're working at concentrations below the lethal level to bees). The results have been amazing -- so much so that we've filed for patent. We've found that bees respond in LESS than 30 seconds to a large array (we're still working to find the limits) of chemicals. But, here's the reason we've gone to patenting. When exposed, in less than 30 seconds, we get an ALARM that the event has happened AND we get a signature that is chemical specific. In other words, the bees can tell us what the chemical was. Now, as per painting bees, gluing things on with adhesives that volatize off solvents, etc. -- since the bees are SO sensitive to vapors, you can more or less fry their olfactory system (overload it), at least for the short term. So, here's the rub. Their olfactory systems respond to levels of chemicals that we can't measure (at least not in the short time interval that a bee can detect them). These chemicals have profound effects on their behavior. This we have on solid evidence -- hundreds of trials, all sorts of chemicals, chemical sampling with conventional instruments run in parallel. We also are convinced (and we can't fully answer this conjecture until we have the new lasers and some serious field time with them) that hanging anything on a bee may drastically alter bee flight, including orientation. And, our bias is that any use of a food reward - near the area that you think that a dance might be sending bees- invalidates the experiment. We use food as a reward, but at the hive. (Well, within a few yards of it). If the dance is sending foragers out to the food source -- they should all end up at the feeder dish beside the hive. There's no food anywhere near the things that we get them to search for. Why would the dance send them to a non-producing 'food' source. And finally, the probability that one of our trained bees will find any target emitting a NON-FOOD odor in the parts per billion vapor range is greater than 99%. At parts per trillion, its usually better than 95-98%. Even if the dance helps, we'd only get a few % points improvement. For all of our work, 90% or more of the discovery of these unconventional targets (no food and not an odor that you'd expect bees to be able to discriminate) relies on odor and odor alone. And our reward dispensing feeder are NEVER near the targets. The dance, if it does what people contend, should be working against us. We should be seeing all of the bees at our conditioning trays, if they were being directed by a dance. Why look elsewhere? Jerry P.S. What does the dance do? Frankly, I don't know. But I do know, the bees don't need it to direct foraging. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 18:10:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Riley, Odor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline To Jerry, Wow! Fascinating information! I still need to check some sites you recommend. I 've heard of the lidar long ago, in a personal message from Jim Fischer. (One bit of really valid and valuable information he gave me.) I'm delighte= d with your conclusion that honeybees find attractive odor-sources in the field by use of odor and only odor, without any need for the dance.[For a reasonable treatment of the question what the dance is good for, see my publication in ABJ of Feb. 2000, vol. 140(2) :98.] Once you train honeybees to food with a specific odor (inside the hive, or near the hive), they become conditioned to this odor, and will find other sources with this odor (and chemically related odors, as you say), in the field. They don't have the "brains" to understand that it was associated with food during the training, but need not have anything to do with food i= n your tests. The problems the DL hypothesis, however caused, have to do with the inaccuracy of the information they contain. Both distance -information and direction-information, contained in dances of foragers foraging at one and the same site, have normal distributions. (Only the maxima of these normal distributions, is assumed to provide the correct value; provided the distributions were obtained under no more than light winds.) And this means that if recruits use that information, they should not all come to the vicinity of the foragers'-feeder, as you expect. Whatever problems you believe the use of food with odors may cause, and whatever problems the odors from a daub of paint placed on the back of trained foragers (foraging at a foragers'-feeder with scented food), may cause to those foragers, it can not, in any way, refute the observations that new bees invariably arrive at the feeder through an upwind zigzag (a response to attractive odors), from as far as observers at the feeder can only spot new-arrivals (but never from a shorter distance, in spite of the fact that this is to be often expected if recruits use DL information), especially when you use no other sources with the foragers' food-odor in th= e field, except the foragers'-feeder. These observations alone suffice to discredit the whole DL hypothesis. And DL opponents have known this since Wenner briefly raised the issue in print in 1974. Nonetheless, thanks for your additional , very strong support of the opposition to the DL hypothesis. Your claim that attaching chips and antennas to honeybees interferes with their ability to fly normally, and that even capturing them, in order to do that, can cause serious problem, is one point of criticism, among several, that Wenner has raised against the conclusions from the radar-tracking stud= y by Riley et al. (in Nature, 2005). Nonetheless, in no way can I believe tha= t the authors of the radar-tracking study by Riley et al. (in Nature, 2005), simply published fabricated results they never obtained. Nor am I inclined to seriously consider the possibility that they published only "good" results. They meticulously reported that one of the 23 bees fitted with transponders and released at the hive, never left the vicinity of the hive, and 3 other bees in that group started flying east, like all the rest, but did not provide enough radar-"sightings" for constructing a good track (probably because they flew too low. So, trying to figure out how the authors obtained the results they published, is still a problem. Since all their details lead to the conclusion that they experimentally confirmed that the bees they radar-tracked in that study might have used A DL that cannot exist in the real world, this means that those bees used a non-existent DL; which is, of course, impossible! This leaves me with the only remaining alternative, i.e. that there was something, or other, wrong with the the presence of observers at the experimental feeder, and that the= y tracked only bees with individual number-tags, i.e. bees with a fully known previous history, that never visited the experimental feeder at that experimental area before. This precludes my favorite suspicion that the bee= s tracked in that specific study were re-recruited trained foragers (who migh= t have lost their tags), and not regular foragers. What I do know however (from one of the authors), is that the published information about the season in which that study was done is a typo. The study was not done in 2000, but in 2001, together with another study published in PNAS (2005), done in 1999 & 2001. The experimenters spent only about 3 weeks on the field work in each season. At least 3 other types of bees were tracked during the 2001 season. The bees were tracked during any time of the day, with bees of the 4 different types tracked in no specific order. Except that only a single bee could be tracked at one time. I also know that Menzel & Greggers were involved in monitoring the work done at th= e hive, and at the experimental feeder, but they had 8 other helpers (thanked in the acknowledgement). Could the tracking of 4 different types of bees in no specific order, and the involvement of 10 different people in the field work (other than monitoring the radar), have opened the door to inadverten= t errors? I don't know. One thing is, however, certain: *The authors* *did not obtain an experimental confirmation for the existence of any honeybee DL*. And this i= s the only issue that really matters! -- Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 18:20:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Riley, Odor Jerry seems to be offering the very unique work done in landmine detection (where there is no actual nectar to bring back to the hive and dance about), as some sort of rebuttal to the radar-tracking done with feeders (where there IS nectar to be brought back to the hive and dance about). I will attempt to explain why Jerry's data is absolutely correct within the specific and highly artificial conditions of his work, but only within those artificial conditions. As such, Jerry's work cannot be the basis for conclusions about how bees act under more "normal" conditions, where there is actual foraging with rewards to be done, rather than nothing but the empty promises offered by Jerry to his bees. > Bottom line, carrying a large device with a vertical OR trailing > antenna... And grabbing them to put the things on is EXTREMELY > disruptive. But in the radar study at issue, what data is indicative of disruption? It would appear that, despite the physical burden of the diodes, the bees still flew with clear purpose, amazingly in compliance with dance vectors, even when being "fooled" by being released at unexpected locations. > LIDAR... Our laser maps of bees searching for targets > by odor can be seen online (Optics Express 13 5853) Correct me if I am over-simplifying, but the basic scheme of your tests was to introduce feed with a "landmine-like" scent, and get some of the bees to speculatively forage for new forage locations (not prompted by dances). As a certain percentage of foragers will always go on "purely speculative" sorties, this was a elegant approach to finding landmines. Jerry's work is waaay kewl, but he is exploiting the well-known behavior of bees under very specific artificial and unnatural conditions, trying to get the bees excited about going out and looking for "nectar" when there are no actual blooms. (It may sound "cruel" to do this, but if it can remove landmines, my vote is to frustrate the heck out of the bees - they'll get over it.) In fact, if any actual groceries had been found, this would have screwed up the test, as dancing would have vectored bees to areas of actual forage, rather than sending them out in essentially random directions in search of more of the "blooms" rumored to be blooming by the introduced feed. It would have screwed up the deployment of foragers, and limited the search area. So admit it, finding landmines won't work at all if there is anything of value to bees blooming in the area at the time of the trial. :) > Also, keep in mind, landmines don't have any reward AND our > conditioning occurs at the hive, not in the field. Yes, as I observed above, a situation not found in nature is being created to exploit the behavior of bees. > Both our video and the lasers show bees locking on and tracking > odor plume from these vapor sources from many yards away. No surprise there, the radar study at issue clearly showed the same sort of strategy, to follow the dance vectors for the bulk of the flight (hundreds or thousands of yards) and then, when within range of the area of interest, to use sensory input, including odor, to pick a specific bloom on which to forage, from "many yards away". The lack of odor in the feeder dishes in the radar study is what resulted in so many bees making it to the correct area, but not the feeder itself. > That means, using even the most conservative plume models, that the > bees were recognizing vapor trails in the parts per quadrillion or less. The statement above is a bit of a non-sequitur when one recalls that the bees in the radar study were flying and foraging downwind. I think it should be clear that any "odor plume" would have been downwind of the foraging targets, not anywhere else, certainly not along the bulk of the flight path from hive to feeder. > Now, as per painting bees... the bees are SO sensitive to vapors, > you can more or less fry their olfactory system (overload it), at > least for the short term. Yes, but in the radar study at issue, there was nothing to smell - there was no overt scent being used, which, not surprisingly resulted in many bees following the dance vectors to the area of the feeders, yet being unable to "find" the feeder, exactly what one would expect of bees used to basing their long-distance travel on dance vectors, and their final approach on odor. > We also are convinced (and we can't fully answer this conjecture until > we have the new lasers and some serious field time with them) that > hanging anything on a bee may drastically alter bee flight, including > orientation. Of course there's an impact. People have been doing all sorts of unspeakable things to bees for centuries, the most basic being to attach a feather or trailing thread to a foraging bee in an attempt to slow down the flight of the bee and thereby do some "lazy man's bee-lining". Funny how even extreme burdens in terms of both weight and aerodynamic impact do not make bees so burdened any less able to find their way home to the hive. :) > our bias is that any use of a food reward - near the area that you > think that a dance might be sending bees- invalidates the experiment. Yes, it would invalidate YOUR experiments, as you want bees to function in the near-psychotic state of having to go randomly search for nectar without any actual blooms in the area! But a "reward" is the only thing that is going to prompt a bee to dance at all. So, it depends on one's goal, and Jerry's goal is to exploit the purely speculative sorties, keeping all the bees that are recruited by dances as close to the hive as possible. In the radar study, the bees released away from the hive flew a pattern that assured that they would never find a feeder, yet they still flew that pattern. So the LACK of a reward in these cases clearly showed that the bees simply were not be somehow "homing in" on an odor, as there was nothing there. To trump the entire hand, they were flying downwind! > We use food as a reward, but at the hive. (Well, within a few yards > of it). If the dance is sending foragers out to the food source -- > they should all end up at the feeder dish beside the hive. I hope Jerry is making a little joke here - of course 100% of the foraging force is never going to blindly focus on the same single source, the whole "hedging of bets" and "diversity in foraging options" is so well-known, it has been well-described in book form for years (Tom Seeley's "Wisdom of The Hive" would be about the best I could suggest on this). > There's no food anywhere near the things that we get them to search > for. Why would the dance send them to a non-producing 'food' source. It clearly does not - the bees foraging away from the feeder are "hedging the hive's bets" by looking for OTHER patches of the blooms falsely said to be "blooming" due to the nectar coming in the door from the nearby feeder, as any hive will do. So they find landmines. Nice way to "hack" bees, but not very useful in describing what the bees might do if landmines provided nectar. (Of course, I would simply design landmines that WOULD provide artificial nectar heavily scented with random scents that masked the odor of a landmine, and REALLY mess with your bees' heads, and screw up your whole detection scheme if I were employed by Acme Landmines. Naw, I would never work on landmines.) > For all of our work... relies on odor and odor alone. Yes, because you have set up conditions that prompt bees to go on exactly the speculative sorties that you'd like them to do, which this is well-known bee behavior, not at all relevant to basic issues of how bees utilize "Odor" and "Dance" in the real world. > The dance, if it does what people contend, should be working against us. Nope. A colony always hedges its bets, there are always some number of foragers looking for "yet another" hitherto undiscovered patch of what's blooming. THOSE are the bees that are finding your landmines. > Why look elsewhere? For the simple reason that, in the worldview of a bee, any ONE nectar source is absolutely certain to "dry up" or become "over-exploited" at some point, so "maverick" bees will always ignore the dances, and go out to try and discover an even BETTER place to brag about. > P.S. What does the dance do? Frankly, I don't know. > But I do know, the bees don't need it to direct foraging. If you have any doubt about the relative value of "dance" versus "odor" to actual real-world colonies of bees in real-world conditions, go try and locate some landmines when the entire field in which the landmines are buried is covered in clover, dandelions, vetch, and other blooms. You will get thousands of misleading tracks to slog through, 'cause even if your artificial "bribe" is 90% sugar, a heck of a lot of bees will still go for the clover and vetch. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 15:52:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Dance Language Controversy & House hunting In-Reply-To: <71086F13-613A-4B49-83C5-EFA1C30CBA24@cornell.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mar 1, 2006, at 5:49 AM, Mike Griggs wrote (in small part): > Could any dance language opponents who have seen Tom's publications > on this explain to the group how the directional & distance cues > (angle of the dance from vertical & intensity of the waggle ) relayed > to the other home scouts does or does not convey information. Is not > the conveyance of this information not a language? This system > presumably removes odor from the equation. > > Tom's study, conducted on a remote island, with only his hive > locations seem to prove that he can judge from the dances which > distance & hive location the dancers are selecting. No one disputes the fact that the dance maneuver contains distance and direction information. We human beings can read that information, but it is extremely inaccurate. Tom Seeley and co-workers have published data about the amount of error in that information, just as did earlier. Jerry Bromenshenk's extensive input on BEE-L today about the sensitivity of bees to odors has real significance here, particularly his postscript comment, "What does the dance do? Frankly, I don't know. But I do know, the bees don't need it to direct foraging." My co-workers and I formed the same conclusion long ago, as indicated in my BEE-L posting of yesterday (more on that presently). Our results also indicated that bees don't need the dance maneuver information during swarm movement. In fact, the American Bee Journal published an article of mine on that very subject back in 1992: now available on BeeSource.com: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/abjjan1992.htm BEE-L subscribers by now should not be surprised that bee language advocates do not cite or mention that 1992 swarm movement article — its content does not fit in with the bee language belief system. (As I wrote earlier, the controversy is not about evidence.) Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ******************************************************************* “The more persuasive the evidence against a belief, the more virtuous it is deemed to persist in it.” Robert Park — (Voodoo Science, 2000) ******************************************************************* -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 19:18:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Dance Language Controversy & House hunting In-Reply-To: <71086F13-613A-4B49-83C5-EFA1C30CBA24@cornell.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Griggs Mike wrote: IMHO it would seem the argument is more over what constitutes a language & not that information is being passed amongst bees. Very good post Mike. Think however the info is being conveyed, the field bees get it and get the honey or new hive location. My interest is that they do get it and that they act constructively on it. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 03:57:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: Dance Language Controversy & House hunting In-Reply-To: <20060302031802.6456.qmail@web53414.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi all, When Wenner stated that the DL controversy is not about evidence, he obviously did not mean to say that evidence should not count. In pointing out that DL supporters ignore his publication on honeybee swarms, he made i= t quite clear that what he meant is that counter-evidence does not count for staunch DL supporters, who simply ignore it. Griggs Mike believed that there is no doubt that honeybees have a DL, in other words there is no doubt that all the essential evidence for the existence of that DL has been provided. Therefore, there can be no controversy over the availability of that evidence. And the controversy is only whether the term "language" is applicable here. As I pointed out in an earlier response to his message, no valid evidence for the existence of the honeybee DL has ever been provided by any DL supporter. Instead, there has only been very strong experimental evidence, coming from. many different directions, against the DL hypothesis. I don't know whether he understood that. And I, therefore, have no idea whether he still believes that honeybees have a DL. Mike Stoops is convinced that honeybees have a DL, simply because he wishes them to have such a DL. Well, evolution is not an "intelligent designer" that one can pray to, in the hope that it will grant one's wishes. And if i= t ever endowed honeybees with the ability to obtain & use spatial information contained in foragers'-dances, they have never yet shown any evidence of that. Fischer continues to practice his own personal brand of "science". I pointe= d out, over & over again, that if the radar-tracked bees in the study by Rile= y et al. (in Nature 2005) used a DL, then, plain logical thinking leads to the inevitable conclusion that they they could only have used a non-existen= t DL. Fischer still does not get that. I repeatedly pointed out very many problems in the data obtained by the authors of that study. But Fischer chooses to ignore all those problems. He now claims, regarding the observed by the lidar to fly to the mine-field must have been scouts. Moreover, he claimed that there was no dancing in the tests done by Jerry and his colleagues, because there was no food in those tests. He even suggests that Jerry must have been joking when he stated that if honeybees used a DL, he expected new bees to arrive primarily in the vicinity of the foragers'-feeder that was a few yards awa= y from the hive. The only "joke" here is that the foragers'-feeder provided the food that in Fischer's mind did not exist at all. And the reason Jerry expected most new bees to go primarily to the vicinity of the feeder, had they used DL information, is that the foragers that foraged at the feeder must have danced in the hive. So here are the dances that in Fischer's mind did not exist atall. Most dance-attendants were, then expected to leave the hive as regular recruits. In fact, if the foragers'-feeder was only a few yards from the hive, the foragers might have performed only round dances. And according to the DL hypothesis recruits were, then, expected to find sources with the odors associated with the foragers'-food, i.e. the odors o= f explosives, only near the hive, within the round dance range for the specific strain of honeybees Jerry & his colleagues used. The foragers'-feeder was, however, deliberately set far away from the mine-field. If they used DL information none of the regular recruits were expected to find the mine-field at all. As for scouts,scouts were not expected to go specifically to the mine-field either. Moreover, field-bees tend not to scout if they can be recruited by active foragers that are bringing food into the hive. The only sensible explanation of the result Jerry and his colleagues obtained is that the bees that flew to the mine-field were regular recruits= , that had attended the dances of the foragers that brought in food from the foragers'-feeder. As dance-attendants they developed an attraction for the odors associated with that food, i.e. the odors of explosives (through a conditioning process where the food they received from dancing foragers during dance-attendance served as the "reward"). Once they left the hive they did not at all search for sources of such odors only within the round dance range, as expected from the DL hypothesis. Instead, most of them foun= d the mine-field, simply because the mine field had many sources of explosive-odors, probably with a far higher concentration of such odors in each of those sources, compared to the single foragers'-feeder. The "sleights of mind" that fanatic DL supporters are able to play upon themselves are, sometimes mind-boggling, and often also pretty amusing. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 04:40:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline To Jerry Bromenshek, Hi, Do you know where and how scientists first got the idea to try and train honeybees, instead of dogs, to sniff explosives in mine-fields? I have often wondered whether Wenner's inadvertent rediscovery (published i= n 1971, and later repeatedly stressed throughout his publications against th= e honeybee DL hypothesis), that, contrary to v. Frisch, honeybees had an exceptionally high sensitivity to odors, might have contributed to that? -- Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 19:47:11 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Riley, Odor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry When you say that everyone has part of it right, do you mind if I quiz you a little more on that? > We also are convinced (and we can't fully answer this > conjecture until we have the new lasers and some > serious field time with them) that hanging anything > on a bee may drastically alter bee flight, including > orientation. So what do you make of the displaced bees in Joe Riley's experiment flying E, where the waggle dancers were assumed to be pointing them? Are you saying that there might be a technical reason for that, as in some interference caused by the transponder? I can't see why they would all fly E (to where there was no feeder) unless they were responding to the waggle dance. One of Adrian's big concerns was that the bees would not be behaving normally, having had a great big piece of hardware stuck on their back (I can have some sympathy with that!). But a fright response, if they have such a thing, would surely send them scattering. Your work with LIDAR and odor cues (look - I'm so impressed that I've even allowed myself the US spelling for a change!) is truly marvellous. Do you think that it is possible that by placing reward close to the hive you are encouraging odour(sorry!)-only searches? It strikes me that so much of the controversy could be ascribed to bees doing different things in different experiments. Close feeders cause round dances and odour-only searches; distant feeders induce waggle-dances where both dance information (approximate targeting) and odour (final location of site) operate. The bees' definition of close and far just might depend on other variables (maybe even the strength of the colony). > P.S. What does the dance do? Frankly, I don't > know. But I do know, the bees don't need it to > direct foraging. Don't need it, OK, but they might still use it as the most efficient way of getting a strong foraging force quickly into the right area? all the best Gavin. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 15:10:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: Dance Language Controversy & House hunting In-Reply-To: <71086F13-613A-4B49-83C5-EFA1C30CBA24@cornell.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline To Griggs and All, The study by Seeley, that you noted, did not at all exclude odors from the equation. On the contrary. He deliberately "baited" the small hive boxes he offered as prospective nests, with lures made primarily from the major extracts of Nasanov gland odors. Humans form quorums to reach joint decisions. I doubt that any other animal= s do. Honeybees certainly do not do anything like that. A honeybee dances onl= y when chased by other bees that are attracted by the odors it carries. When nest-scouts find a new site that has more attractive odors than sites found by other scouts, swarm-mates gradually switch to chasing after the scouts that carry more attractive odors. The other nest-scouts that are not being chased anymore, do not dance. They may even eventually attend dances of the scouts that carry more attractive odors, and if they find (by use of odor alone all along), the site advertised by such scouts, they adsorb on their body-hair the more attractive odors from that site, then attract swarm-mate= , which will result in a dance. The DL controversy is definitely over "what information is passed among honeybees". The fact that human scientists (including Seeley), can obtain from honeybee-dances information about the approximate location of the site the dancers had visited, provides no evidence whatsoever, that honeybees ca= n obtain & use such information. Seeley might not have bothered to explain that which goes without saying, for anyone who knows anything about it, i.e. that scientists can obtain the information only by relying on preliminary research on the relations between various aspects of the dance and the distance & direction of the site the dancers had visited. Moreover, this preliminary research must be done separately for each honeybee species and strain from whose dances researchers wish to obtain the information. It also goes without saying that honeybees never engage in any scientific research. So how can you logically jump from knowing that scientists can obtain that information (once you know how they do it), to the conclusion that honeybees must be able to do the same? In spite of an almost endless number of ever-new claims published by staunc= h DL supporters (starting with v. Frisch himself), during the past 60 years, to have experimentally confirmed the existence of the DL, they have never even come close to achieving any such confirmation. Instead, there have onl= y been experimental results, coming from many different directions, that grossly contradict the DL hypothesis. This is not surprising at all, because the DL hypothesis was stillborn when v. Frisch fully justifiably concluded on the basis of his first study on honeybee-recruitment, that honeybee-recruits use odor alone, and NO information about the location of any food. More than 20 years later he concluded that his initial conclusion must have been an error (which it never was), and "corrected" that error by claiming that recruits did use information about the location of the foragers' food-source, at least to an extent of knowing approximately where to search for odors from that source. It was, however, his erroneous conclusion that honeybees have a very poor, human-like sensitivity to odors (which preceded his studies on honeybee-recruitment, and tainted most of his work on honeybee-recruitment)= , which led him to the erroneous conclusion that his initial, fully justified conclusion, needed to be corrected. Ever since v. Frisch "repaired" his initial conclusion "which was never broke" in the first place, staunch DL supporters have been "chasing phantoms", working ever harder to discover the essential, but ever-elusive evidence for the existence of the honeybee DL, i.e. actually striving to revive the stillborn DL hypothesis. Anyone who urges staunch DL supporters to quit, soon finds himself turned into a pariah. When Wenner & his team launched the opposition to the DL hypothesis in Science of 1967, the DL hypothesis had already become a revered ruling paradigm. By 1969 Wenner's team was already chided in Scienc= e for daring to criticise "an eminent scientist like von Frisch". Since 1973 staunch DL supporters have even had the 1973 Nobel Prize in Medicine or Physiology behind them. How dare anyone question the Nobel Committee? Well, I do.And I am by no means the only one, nor the first on, to be fully convinced of that. Moreover, I do not hesitate to label that specific Nobel Prize the greatest goof in the history of science. -- Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 15:14:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Radar-tracking study by Riley et al. (Nature, May 12, 2005) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi All, With all due respect to beekeepers and their problems, my own interest in the honeybee "dance language" (DL) controversy, is based on the fact that this specific controversy has long become the most important reflection of = a far more important, basic, general controversy over the very foundations of the whole field of Behavioral Science. I shall say no more about that general controversy beyond pointing out that it was no accident that v. Frisch's 1973 Nobel Prize was shared by the 2 co-founders of a specific general approach to the study of behavior, known as European Ethology. The honeybee DL hypothesis has, however, with which that Wenner dealt on other occasions. When v. Frisch still correctly believed that honeybee-recruits use odor alone all along, he learned from an experienced beekeeper of a "technique" for sending honeybees to flowers of a desired type by offering sugar-water on cut flowers of that type in front of the hive. V. Frisch experimented with the "technique" and improved it, by offering the sugar-water on the cut flowers inside the hive (to prevent robbery), in a wire-mesh cage (to prevent the bees from throwing the flower= s out). He then highly recommended the "technique to beekeepers. At the time, however, he did not have the great fame he later earned for his "discovery' of the sensational honeybee DL, and few, except the Soviets, heeded his advice. After his great "discovery", he became erroneously convinced that, since bees that fed on the cut flowers in front of the hive, or inside the hive, would perform only round dances, their recruits could find such flowers onl= y near the hive, within the round dance range. This is why his massive 1967(1965) book, which is devoted primarily to the honeybee DL, includes only one very brief chapter on sending honeybees to flowers of s desired type by use of odor alone. -- Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 20:55:13 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Odors... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry, >>These chemicals have profound effects on their behavior. Is there any evidence that marking queens with white-out - paper correction fluid - could permanently damage/handicap them in any way? Thank you. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 13:29:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Honeybee colouration In-Reply-To: <1141148153.440489f941401@myimp.spidernet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Roger: Perhaps you could clarify your theory about this. reply: The field breeding basics for honeybees I did was back in 1995, but I suppose I could do far deeper thoughts now over 10 years later in just this one category, but really though it would be maps overlayed (perhaps 4), nothing hard. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 04:34:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Dance Language Controversy & House hunting In-Reply-To: <7dd5575e0603020057l62d2f39ew2e59cfa3fe619ea4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ruth Rosin wrote: Mike Stoops is convinced that honeybees have a DL, simply because he wishes them to have such a DL. Mike previously wrote: "Think however the info is being conveyed, ...... they do get it and that they act constructively on it. Guess I wasn't clear in my posting. I'm not completely convinced that honeybees have a DL, but I'm not completely convinced that they don't. Think that there has to be some more controlled studies. There is more than one way that info can be transferred from one individual to another, at least in human beings. Think that is probably true in other species as well. As our ability to track bees with less and less obtrusiveness grows, the better we will be able to assess our studies of the bees' different language mechanisms. Facial movements, body language, tone of voice, words spoken, (i.e. odor, bee movement, wing vibration, etc.) all speak (possibly). I'm not a bee so I can't say definitively about their languages but I'm not going to discount concepts with the current evidence presented. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 10:03:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Riley, Odor In-Reply-To: <000001c63d86$abb7cfa0$03fca8c0@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just add one more step to the land mine tests, that of providing a nectar source and watching for the dance. Then you would see if language works, since there would be many other sources of odor (many land mines), but only one giving a reward. Jim really said it all. What Jerry is seeing is just the first step in the process, finding the nectar source. We know one of the things that happens in the hive is the transfer of nectar and from that, its odor. It makes good sense for bees to search out other sources of that odor, since specific flowers do bloom in stands about the same time. Hence, there will probably be other stands of flowers in the area, other than the one close by. Hence, odor can send them out to find a new source, but language will direct them to a profitable source. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 20:41:34 +0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: PO Gustafsson Subject: New address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Bee-friends, I know many of you have links to my web page. It has been the same address for 10 years, but it was not my own domain. The provider has changed policy and the quality of the service is no longer what it used to be. So I have set up my own domain, to avoid any need to change address in the future. Old address: http://www.algonet.se/~beeman New address: http:// beeman.se My apologies for the inconvenience. The old web page will be there for some time yet. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson pogust@gmail.com http://beeman.se SKYPE:beemansweden -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 09:43:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Question In-Reply-To: <7dd5575e0603020140t2e0440d5wd9f757ae345a1146@mail.gmail.co m> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:40 AM 3/2/2006, you wrote: We know exactly how this came about, its a long story. We're the innovators -- proposed and got the funding to do this. Now, there's years of prior work -- we did 30 years of using bees as environmental samplers. In 1995, we added on-hive electronics and went looking for harmful materials at Aberdeen Proving Grounds -- where there's lots of buried junk, much of it potentially toxic. APG was capping a VERY hazardous waste site only 16 miles from Baltimore. All of the water coming off the site was being cleaned by a water treatment plant and screened by fish before being released in the BAY. Again, no one wanted an accidental spill into waters near Baltimore. The guys doing the capping operated all of the heavy machinery remotely, from a shed 1 mile away. The bees, bee counters, and on-line communications provided an air warning system similar to that of the fish. The air sampling instruments tended to give false alarms with all of the heavy equipment -- no one was allowed anywhere near that toxic dump while the heavy machinery was running. The bees were the fall back -- as long as they didn't suddenly start dying, no one pushed the panic button, evacuated Baltimore. One day, I got a visit from another branch of DoD. They asked -- if bees can locate, sample, and map hazardous chemicals, can they SHOW US where they got them? Obviously, the DoD knew about dogs, operant conditioning. My response was that I was reasonably sure this could be done (just didn't know how good bees might be, whether they could detect novel chemicals (not a floral scent, not a pheromone), and I didn't have the equipment to put the whole system together. It took another year, but by that time we had a major contract from DoD, and subcontracts to three national labs, to pull all of this together. Now DoD also knew about moths and their ability to locate mates 20 miles away. They found the WASP HOUND group working on how wasps locate prey, then (if the prey is out of reach down in the plant) mark the plant with a chemical marker. They found Smith at OHIO working with proboscis extension in response to odors. From my conversations, they didn't know about Adrian until after we came on board. I recommended his book to them. So, they found several groups working on insects. They also funded work to look at beetles with infra-red sensors, birds, lobsters -- its a long list. And not to be forgotten, the remote control rats. At one point, Adrian was pulled into all of this by DoD, as was InScentinel, a group in England that uses bees in a box to screen for all sorts of things. The DoD scouts were harvesting technologies from groups actively pushing the edge of the envelope in this area. We got the nod because of our long-term work using bees as sentinels AND all of our hardware and software (for on-hive monitoring). The latter was a big issue to them. Of all of these, the rats, wasps, and bees have continued, under other funding -- and I suspect because of a dogged conviction by each of the successful groups that there's real potential and use. Jerry P.S. Adrian has put in his two bits from time to time, and I greatly appreciate and acknowledge his input. How we effect our conditioning is different than his approach, and we had to turn to computer processors to automate and fine-tune the system, but we both use odor to drive bees. Note, our patents are not on conditioning bees, per se. Also, my Ph.D. was in insect behavior, so this was a chance to go back to my academic roots. Sampling chemicals is interesting, but I more enjoy the behavioral topics and our technical toys. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 16:59:27 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Question In-Reply-To: <7dd5575e0603020140t2e0440d5wd9f757ae345a1146@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ruth > Do you know where and how scientists first got the idea to try > and train honeybees, instead of dogs, to sniff explosives in > mine-fields? My information may not be correct, but I have heard several stories that cite preferential occupancy by swarms, of empty dynamite boxes, in South Africa as the source of the idea. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 10:03:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Riley, Odor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Well, its been a long time since any of my posts generated any discussion. Fun to see some give and take. Jim put in some serious time. Too bad we couldn't argue this over a couple of beers. I stand by my last statement. You can read anything else you might like, into the discussion. I tried to say what we know from testing, what I 'think', which is opinion. Bees Don't NEED the DANCE to be successful at foraging. Note, I did not take a stand on the dance. As to interference in bee behavior, caused by grabbing bees and attaching tags, that's my conclusion after lots of testing. Its opinion, but its also the reason we stopped pursuing tags, turned to lasers. Now, as to why Joe's bees found their targets. Since the bees can find the odor without ANY dance information, they will get to a scented target regardless of whether they do or do not get any usable information from the dance and whether anyone grabbed them. Also, Joe didn't paint his bees, but the GLUE is very volatile. In fact, I'm surprised it doesn't throw them off. Do all of the bees go to our landmines, absolutely not. Do the majority of them search for the non-reward bearing targets -- it appears so, but our new lasers will finally answer that question. Is our situation highly artificial - absolutely. But note, we're the only one who ever uncoupled the dance from the odor (as far as getting bees to a non-reward bearing target that doesn't look like a flower or feeder -- its just a patch of dirt). Now, this is MY opinion, and Jim and Bill aren't likely to agree. But, we've been reasonably successful at following our opinions, so I'll continue along this path until our data proves me wrong. Jim says the dance will send foragers to other FOOD sources. Maybe. Do some bees fly and bring home water, pollen, nectar -- while others go to landmines -- certainly. But, if you are a forager conditioned to landmines, YOUR floral constancy should be to a tray with oodles of syrup, that smells like a nitrogen compound. Since that tray is by the hive, economy of effort would imply that any foragers from THAT SOURCE should be dancing to direct their sisters to THAT source. In fact, we have to control access to the tray -- otherwise no bee goes anywhere other than to the tray. Now, at least two of the major U.S. proponents (scientists who have published in Nature about the dance) have confessed that: 1) The dance doesn't appear to have a role in how we get bees to non-reward bearing targets, and 2) Of these, one of the key players is as interested in our laser as we are -- although he strongly believes in and has published extensively on the dance, the scientist in him knows that we really don't know how bees discover and explore new areas -- if we can image that, picking out the bees from the moment they walk out the door, and can monitor all 360 degrees, with full sampling of wind directions, etc. -- we're going to have a chance to really examine central foraging. Not necessarily what the books say, but what the bees do. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 13:10:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: Dance Language Controversy & House hunting In-Reply-To: <20060302123444.1881.qmail@web53401.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline To Mike Stoops, Think of a million and one qualitatively very complex things that humans ca= n do, and honeybees could never even come close, and you might realise that you need to completely exclude almost everything that humans can do, when you are dealing with honeybees. There is no evidence, and, therefore, no reason to believe that any of the very many different, and qualitatively very complex, means of communication that are available to humans, are available to honeybees too. No scientist would ever even begin to seriously consider the possibility that honeybees might be able to communicate through "facial expressions", and this is a fully correct approach to the study of honeybee-behavior. There are more than enough well-controlled experiments to conclude that there has never been any valid evidence for the existence of the honeybee DL. Instead, there has only been very strong experimental evidence, coming from many different directions, against any possibility that honeybees use distance & direction information, or that they even have the abilities required to obtain such information, in the first place Humans are, indeed, not a honeybee. Not only that, but they are but you ar= e "the crown of evolution", with a qualitatively complex "psychic level" that is higher than that of any other living organism. And I could not even begi= n to explain here what the term "psychic level" means; except to say that it roughly fits what we mean when we speak of "brains". Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 14:12:40 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Fischer Alchemy Subject: Re: Riley, Odor > Jim put in some serious time. Naw, I just type fast. > Too bad we couldn't argue this over a couple of beers. Anytime we are in the same zip code, and I'm buying. > Now, as to why Joe's bees found their targets. Since the bees > can find the odor without ANY dance information, they will get > to a scented target But the targets in the study at issue were >>NOT<< scented!!!! ("Joe" is "J. Riley", author of the study at issue, for those playing the home version of the game.) > Also, Joe didn't paint his bees, but the GLUE is very volatile. > In fact, I'm surprised it doesn't throw them off. I'm not... there was no advantage to detecting odors in the study at hand, so it did not matter. Had it been a windless day, or had the feeder been upwind of the hive, odors might have certainly factored into the results, at least in terms of how many bees might find the actual target rather than just fly in the direction of the target. > But note, we're the only one who ever uncoupled the dance > from the odor (as far as getting bees to a non-reward bearing > target that doesn't look like a flower or feeder -- its just > a patch of dirt). Well, read on for why I don't think you have "uncoupled" anything and why your scheme "needs" dance. Ruth calls them "scouts", and I call them "speculative sorties", but regardless, these are bees who are predisposed to look elsewhere, overtly NOT at the "danced" location of your feeder. So, if I am on a speculative sortie, and all I have to go on is the scent of the nectar that is coming in the door, I'm gonna do what? I'm gonna fly off in a "random" direction (or, more likely, an ever-widening circle type search pattern, similar to an orientation flight), and I'm gonna "see what I can find out there". And if I am >>>REALLY<<< using "only odor", why do I not head straight to the feeder only yards away from the hive? Well shucks, that's because I KNOW that actual nectar coming into the hive from that site is limited, and I need to look elsewhere, as I paid attention to THE DANCES ABOUT THAT EXISTING SOURCE! Now this is pure speculation on my part, but I'd submit that Jerry's entire scheme depends upon "dance", or no bees would go anywhere but the feeder, due to the odor from the feeder being "right on the hive's doorstep". So, the speculative sortie foragers see/hear/feel the dances, and use the vector info (or the round dance description of "really close") to EXCLUDE the feeder site as a source that is "overloaded" with foragers, or perhaps "drying up". <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> <> 'Cause if it was "all odor", why/how would ANY bee IGNORE <> THE ODOR WAFTING FROM THE FEEDER and look anywhere else? <> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > Jim says the dance will send foragers to other FOOD sources. Maybe. No, not in the least - I said that the feeder site being danced about is being overtly ignored by these speculative foragers, as described above. Clearly, they may be paying attention to tropholaxis, or maybe the whole hive starts to smell like the "nectar du jour", and even tropholaxis is irrelevant. Heck, tag some bees with number tags, use an observation hive and look at how your toy actually works in terms of what the specific bees that end up finding landmines do, both inside and outside the hive. An easy test would be to allow unrestricted access to your feeder for a few hours, to "get 'em hooked", and then, if you were to MORE SEVERELY restrict access to the feeder than you do now, you'd see an increase in the number of bees resorting to speculative sorties, and an increase in the number of landmines found per hour versus what you have seen with less draconian restriction. There ya go, a testable and falsifiable prediction that has actual value to your core mission in terms of tangibly better performance of your detection scheme. If it works, you can let me keep the very slick bee counter you sent me. (By the way - love the toy! Do you need it back? Say the word...) > But, if you are a forager conditioned to landmines, YOUR floral > constancy should be to a tray with oodles of syrup, that smells > like a nitrogen compound. Since that tray is by the hive, economy > of effort would imply that any foragers from THAT SOURCE should be > dancing to direct their sisters to THAT source. In fact, we have > to control access to the tray -- otherwise no bee goes anywhere other > than to the tray. OK, no surprises there - so, if you want to maximize the number of speculative sorties, it should be no big surprise that if the "nectar du jour" is coming in, but not keeping all foragers busy, that more foragers will indulge in speculative sorties. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 14:55:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: Riley, Odor In-Reply-To: <003901c63d68$ef837220$04000005@mshome.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline To Gavin, Excuse me for butting in, since your questions were not directed to me at all. Frankly, do not believe that any problems caused by the bees carrying the transponders, (and being captured to attach the transponders to them in the first place), might have produced the results Riley et al. published in Nature (2005). But, how do YOU explain the fact that as soon as you add a proper control-test, with scent added to the food (which are the only conditions under which honeybee-recruits ever find any resources in nature, and which Riley et al. not only did not do, but deliberately avoided doing), the ability of honeybee-recruits to use their DL, completely disappears (as evidence by the typically invariable manner of arrival? You wouldn't want t= o conclude that the essential, but ever-elusive evidence for the existence of the honeybees DL, can be "discovered" only provided you avoid proper control-test? You can "discover" anything you wish, if you only preclude proper controls! What you are actually trying to do is revise the DL hypothesis yet again. You now suggest that round dances result in recruits using odor alone all along. So how do you explain the fact that round dances contain the information (which scientists can obtain), that the food is only near the hive, within the round dance range? Of course, they use odor alone all along, but they do so TOTALLY IRRESPECTIVE OF THE TYPE OF DANCETHEY ATTENDED, and totally irrespective of almost any other factor (except visua= l & odor cues from foragers flying back & forth from the hive to the feeder; when recruits find themselves where they can sense such cues). The only remaining alternative to the impossible conclusion that the the bees tracked by Riley at al. (in Nature 2005) used a non-existent DL, is that there was something wrong with the study. What it is, I do not know. I might, or I might not be able to tell you more, if you only obtain for me a= n answer from Mennzel, or Greggers, to my question whether the un-tracked new beess that were observed to arrive at the site of the experimental feeder, arrived there with, or without, an upwind zigzag? So why don't you be a nic= e guy, and ask those authors the question? You could impress them with all th= e information about your being a scientist. You are free to even frankly tell them that I informed you about the existence of such bees (based on persona= l information from Greggers), and that I prodded you into asking the question= , because I want to know the answer; which they never gave me. I have no idea whether the answer might be interesting, or not, as long as = I have never even seen it. It is quite possible that those authors do not eve= n know the answer, i.e. that they saw those bees arrive at the feeder-site no= t in the company of any of the trained foragers, but they never bothered to observe how exactly those bees arrived. It is possible that (just like the = 2 tracked bees that arrived at the site on their own), those un-tracked bees that arrived at the site on their own, also arrived there without any upwin= d zigzag. And it is possible that they arrived there with an upwind zigzag. Only in that last case could I determine with certainty that the 2 tracked bees that "walked like a duck, and quacked like a duck", i.e. that behaved like re-recruited trained foragers, and not at all like regular recruits, were indeed "ducks". Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 20:16:55 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Riley, Odor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, Adrian, Jim, Ruth, Dave, Bill, a couple of Mikes, and everyone else ..... (but mostly Jerry and Adrian) Underlying all of this discussion there is still one point that shines through ... the Riley et al paper was an elegant piece of hypothesis-testing, even though the hypotheses weren't described in those terms. The two implied and mutually exclusive hypotheses: 1. That naive foragers 'learn' from observing the waggle dance in which (approximate) direction to fly for the forage that excited the dancer. 2. That naive foragers leave the hive aiming for the forage using other cues, such as odour, as *the main cue for the approximate location of the site*. The study was unbiased, in that the data collected could have invalidated either hypothesis. As it happened no. 2 bit the dust. Note that nowhere did anyone say that this means bees do not use odour, just that they *do* use the dance information, and did not use odour for long-distance navigation in that experiment. What I haven't seen in any of the discussion yet is a real, straight explanation of why this conclusion is wrong or might be wrong. Jerry is holding back because transponders can affect foragers. Well, OK, but have you the experience Jerry of how such interference might be manifest. Is it conceivable that this interference could mislead Riley and co, and the rest of us who now believe his results? Could it cause the bees to all fly East? Adrian has reservations that prevent him from accepting the paper too. Having read several of the papers he quoted, it seems to me that Adrian's reluctance comes from a long history of hurt, of scientific hostility, editorial intransigence, and intellectual theft. But what if you open your mind to the possibility that Riley and colleagues are actually right? Your objections seem unconvincing to me - that the researchers had preconceived ideas and were biased, that the transponders and the handling interfered to impose the flight pattern observed, and that not all controls were included. There is some validity in that last point. Observing non-recruited foragers would have been worthwhile, but I could understand that in the 2-frame colonies it would have been hard to be sure that a bee had *not* observed a dance. Lacking this control doesn't negate the study, unless there are real grounds for believing that something apart from watching the dance could cause the bees to fly East. Adrian also said that results should be repeated by a different group before they can be accepted. I'm not convinced by that - in the science with which I'm involved, one good quality clear-cut study is sufficient. And Ruth - you came so close in one of your posts: > They meticulously reported that one of the 23 bees fitted > with transponders and released at the hive, never left the > vicinity of the hive, and 3 other bees in that group > started flying east, like all the rest, but did not provide > enough radar-"sightings" for constructing a good track > (probably because they flew too low. So, trying to figure > out how the authors obtained the results they published, is > still a problem. The problem might be that they are right, no? So back to that hypothesis-testing: where was the faulty reasoning or experimental design? best wishes to all Gavin (Bee dance language advocate for a whole 12 days now!) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 15:08:12 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Dance Language Controversy & House hunting In-Reply-To: <20060302123444.1881.qmail@web53401.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems to be that although all persons involved in this discussion seem to have only one thing in common, and that is that neither camp seems to be able to discount the other other's views. I continue to stand in the middle or around both camps and fervently assert that both odor and dance, as well as color, floral brilliance, food value and geography, play into the successful ability of these bees to find and gather as much forage as possible. I am certain that although each component contibutes independently, that all together each contributes to a system that increases their independent and collective success. Evolution VERY rarely create useless anomolies, and each function of the bee's behavior is VERY likely a useful component in a successful system. That success is which without reproach, as all members here are also very likely to agree. The bee does its job very well. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 17:16:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Dance Language Controversy & House hunting In-Reply-To: <7dd5575e0603021010p44041537k808b4f6f4ebee278@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Re Ruth's comments about human and bee communication. I never intended to say that bees use facial expressions, aor any of the other complex things that humans do. I was using that as a comparative. Wolves have body language but I would never wag my tail when I greet someone I like. Ruth, you are taking me too literal, not making the associations I was trying to use to explain. I'm not saying dance language is what is used to convey information, but looking at me bees today, those bees weren't running around wiggling to some dance band. Why does DL have to be completely excluded to the preference of odor? Why can't the bees have more than one form of language? I.E. wagging tails, scratching marks on trees as high as the animal can reach, marking territory with scent, rolling over on one's back to show subservience? I don't want to argue, nor win a point. Nor do I want to be denigrated. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 06:41:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Riley, Odor In-Reply-To: <003201c63e36$416482a0$04000005@mshome.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin Ramsay wrote: > Adrian also said that results should be repeated by a different group before > they can be accepted. I'm not convinced by that - in the science with which > I'm involved, one good quality clear-cut study is sufficient. The problem is, with some "pure" science today, no study will be sufficient. If you have doubts about that, there are many different studies out there that "prove" the exact opposite of other studies. Control of variables, design of the study, selective interpretation of data, politics, and creative programming all can keep the grant money flowing. With applied science, which is what Jerry is doing, one of the benefits is that it will occasionally help further substantiate a theory or hypothesis. In this case, I do not think it helps either side that much, since it is incomplete. Jerry has said as much. I do not have any dog in this fight, since I have believed all along that both odor and dance have a part in successful foraging. One question for Jerry. Did you monitor for the dance in the hive? That really does not tell us much, since there was no nectar source, but would help a little if the trials were turned into an experiment. One question for the group. Is dance language used for a nectar source close (the operative word here) to the hive? I see no good reason for it if the hive is close by or downwind of a plentiful source of nectar. But maybe it is used. Some observations on his trials. Jerry shifted from adhesives to a "bare" bee so the bee would not be overwhelmed by the adhesives odor (along with other things). What he is trying to find is not a clover field, but one clover blossom in a barren field. It seems that if the adhesive limits the bee's ability to detect other odors, then dance is validated by the Riley study. That is a big "if", but removing the variable of odor either at the bee, at the source or, in this case, both goes a long way to substantiate dance language. Jim's comment of adding a real nectar source, like a distant flower patch, would also help one side or the other. It would not help the trials, which is why it was omitted and the close by source, limited. In essence, the bees were shown the close by source had "dried up" so looked elsewhere for the blooming land mines. You cannot take odor out of foraging. My opinion (guess) is Jerry has shown not all stages of foraging but the first stage, as Jim noted. Bees will search out odors. What they do with the information is where the controversy is. To me, if there is a reward, then that information needs to get to the other bees. We know they exchange nectar, so that imparts the information on what it is to look for. If that is all, then all nectar sources must be downwind of the hive. However, if additional information can be imparted, then nectar sources can be anywhere. Jerry's trails, however, allow bees to find the chemical scents anywhere around but near to the colony. It would be interesting to see if the distribution of bees finding the "land mines" is greater down wind than up wind and how that varies over time. What that might show is the foraging nature of bees. If the initial distribution is mostly downwind then becomes more uniform around the hive, it would imply that foraging is random in nature if no food source is initially detected down wind. You could also monitor for dance language. If none, then there is no nectar source. If there is then why, if there is no nectar source? There are several more things I could add, but this post is long enough as is. I appreciate Jerry's work (since it is the kind of thing I liked to do - get out of the lab and into the field and blow things up). His trials are directed in a very different direction than "odor or dance". He is at the first stage of foraging which is discovery, and from his data, a lot can be learned on how bees find a nectar source. What the bee does with that information may be a part of his trials, but does not appear so from what I have read to date. It is the human observer that uses the information. BTW, Jerry, I thought the reason you shifted to bees to find land mines is you ran out of graduate students. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 08:37:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Re: Dance Language Controversy & House hunting Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Ruth Rosin claims I said " there is no doubt that honeybees have a DL" This is not true--I asked if someone would explain what the observed behavior was about. Look, any biologist who studies animal behavior finds that when something happens like the DL of the returning forgers to the hive there must be an explanation. Bees or any animal will not expend energy for something unless it has a "benefit". Animals tend to conserve energy. So I asked if someone would explain what they think this behavior is about. Why a Dance when walking through the hive would be enough to provide other foragers with the scent? Why would a student do jumping jacks to ask a question when you simply need to raise a hand? I would hazard that a combination of the two components odor detection & the behavior are somehow coupled to maximize foraging by those bees receptive. I don't believe we can continue to discount the behavior as not important " and that as their fine discrimination of odors is also not important. So as I asked What is the meaning of the dance--is it a language do insects (bees) have the ability to communicate (piping) or are they only able to perform rudimentary "instinctual" tasks irrelevant of any communication language? Mike -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 13:59:51 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Riley, Odor In-Reply-To: <003201c63e36$416482a0$04000005@mshome.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gavin & all > Jerry is holding back because transponders can affect foragers. > Well, OK, but have you the experience Jerry of how such > interference might be manifest. I have concerns that glue, transponders and handling to affix aerials may have effects, but to be realistic any of these possible causes can only have random effects, that might introduce 'noise' into the results. I do not believe there is any likelihood that any of these 'interferences' can cause all the bees concerned to fly in any particular direction (or alter their behaviour in any manner other than randomly). Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 08:04:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Question In-Reply-To: <4407246F.6030606@lineone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:59 AM 3/2/2006, you wrote: We were long into this work when I got a call from S. Africa about occupancy by swarms in dynamite boxes. Whether this was due to empty boxes making convenient homes, or to swarms exiting from parent colonies in such boxes, and as such more or less conditioned to the odor of explosives is unknown. Actually, the DoD person who first contacted me was thinking of other uses. In the process of putting together a team, the explosive group at Sandia labs, namely Susan F. Bender and Phil Rodacy contacted us, suggested explosives and landmines. Which, is the rest of the story. Jerry >Hi Ruth > > > Do you know where and how scientists first got the idea to try > > and train honeybees, instead of dogs, to sniff explosives in > > mine-fields? > >My information may not be correct, but I have heard several stories that >cite preferential occupancy by swarms, of empty dynamite boxes, in South >Africa as the source of the idea. > > >Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY >http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net >Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) > >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 06:51:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Streaker Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 'Streaker' Honeybees Direct Bee Swarms By Jennifer Viegas, Discovery News March 2, 2006 — Enormous bee swarms containing as many as 15,000 bees are guided by "streaker" scout bees that fly super fast and lead the swarm to its destination, according to a new study published in the latest journal Animal Behavior. The study negates a prior theory that scout bees released smelly chemicals that informed the other bees where to go. The discovery of streaking scout bees indicates the other bees simply look up to the speedy flyers that zip along with a "Follow me!" visual cue. "A bee's eye is rather large and is not placed at the front of the bee's 'face' like ours, but is sort of positioned on top of the bee's head," explained Madeleine Beekman, lead author of the study. "This means that the bee has a clear view of what is happening above her." Beekman, a bee expert and researcher in the School of Biological Sciences at the University of Sydney, added, "Hence, when scouts fly fast above a bee that doesn't know where to go, this fast-flying bee will be visible as a streak and this streak points into the direction of travel." http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20060227/bee_ani.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 13:29:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Dance Language Controversy & House hunting What happens if the dancers were censored, and only dancers reporting a specific location were allowed to pass this information on to the colony? Madeleine Beekman writes: Several hundred scout bees fly from the swarm cluster to search out tree cavities and other potential dwelling places. The dozen or so scouts that find suitable cavities report their locations by means of waggle dances performed on the surface of the bivouacked swarm, and other scouts decode the dances, visit the sites themselves, and may dance in turn. We studied the flights of five large swarms. Three made 270-m flights to our bait hive and two made considerably longer flights to hollow trees. We encouraged these three swarms to fly to our hive in the field, rather than to some tree in the forest, by steadily monitoring the waggle dances performed on each swarm and removing any dancers that advertised sites other than our hive. We did not censor the dances in the other two swarms which flew to hollow trees. FROM: How does an informed minority of scouts guide a honeybee swarm as it flies to its new home? MADELEINE BEEKMAN, ROBERT L. FATHKE & THOMAS D. SEELEY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 18:31:04 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dance Language Controversy & House hunting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As an onlooker on this fascinating topic I am wondering what experiments the amateur beekeeper, perhaps with an observation hive, could undertake to investigate further the phenomenon of bees arriving at predicted places. I suppose as a starting point one could use the 'Method, Result, Conclusion.' way of working that I remember from schooldays, or 'I did this; that happened; therefore this proves...'. But the controversy seems to be based upon a disagreement as to what is proved when one follows a described method and obtains a result. Is this because the experimenter starts with his mind to some extent already made up and therefore sees what he expects to see? As I constantly remind people in my evidence-based work: everyone sees his own evidence through rose-tinted spectacles (and wears blinkers to avoid inconvenient observations). So what can an open-minded beekeeper do apart from listening to the wisdom of his elders and betters? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 20:42:07 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Dance Language Controversy & House hunting In-Reply-To: <28c.6aba752.313a2bb8@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: As an onlooker on this fascinating topic I am wondering what experiments the amateur beekeeper, perhaps with an observation hive, could undertake to investigate further the phenomenon of bees arriving at predicted places. So what can an open-minded beekeeper do apart from listening to the wisdom of his elders and betters? If you have an observation hive, you would then start with a hypothesis. Then mark a goodly number of your field bees just like we do our queens. You might even use four or five different colors so that you could detect recruitment of different bees from your observation hive. Have two people doing the observations, one at the observation hive and one at the target "nectar" source. I could go into detail but part of the fun is figuring out how to conduct your experiment. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 00:33:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: more on morphometrics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee: That paper on morphometrics mentioned on BeeL in January is now freely available if you’re interested. http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2006/01/M6009/M6009.html Click on the ‘PDF’ link. (It’s 624 kb). Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 21:58:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Dance Language Controversy & House hunting Comments: To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Tom Seeley showed the beekeepers of the Kansas/Missouri regional meeting some pretty convincing evidence of DL & house hunting. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 22:37:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics Excellant Queens Comments: To: Predrag Cvetkovic In-Reply-To: <017401c63c59$a4b32e80$756c89d5@predrag> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Predrag: 7. Body size: Looking for uniform body size of worker subfamilies. 13. Robbing capacity (for the good): Strong hives robbing out weak and/or non-acclimitized hives. 14. Early and pre-flow build-ups: Early strong brooding using stored honey/pollen prior to first blooms, instead of building up only when first blooms start, with good reworking of comb cells for storage shifts and/or brood. 16. Cluster ability and fanning ability: Being able to winter well/conserve stores/move as needed and as single cluster, and also being able to regulate hive temperatures adequately in hot weather as pertains to both drying nectar, while keeping broodnest properly cooled and humidified. Now list for the bad: 2. Cluster ability and fanning ability: Not able to cluster as a single unit, excessive consumption of stores, poor movement as needed during winter, and not able to dry nectar adequately during hot weather, and not able to keep brood cool and humidified properly hot weather. 4. Honey gathering capabilities in complete-flow shutoffs (long drought with little water, forage not blooming for the most part): Poor ability to conserve stores and maintain status quo; poor ability to survival of fittest as to robbing weaker/non-acclimitized to gain stores. 5. Hive defense in summer vs winter conditions/drought conditions: Poor ability to keep pests/predators under control, including other hives/colonies, while yet easy for field management. 7. Early and pre-flow build-ups (will they build-up on stored-up stores now granulated): Waiting for first bloom for fresh nectar/pollen to initiate brooding; and/or no reworking of combs to resituate stores & prepare cells for early brooding and/or very little, for early brooding up, prior to. 8. Weak flow and winter carryover (amount of brood and strength): Not good on conserving stores for maintaining strength as needed. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 05:07:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dance language controversy and house hunting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/03/2006 05:01:48 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: You might even use four or five different colors so that you could detect recruitment of different bees from your observation hive. Have two people doing the observations, one at the observation hive and one at the target "nectar" source. It might be interesting to feed the obs hive with a syrup flavoured with an essential oil and then have a source of the same scent but without syrup say half a mile away and see what happens at each end. Or rather than essential oil how about a touch of your favourite lady's perfume! Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 07:31:24 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Wade Jensen Subject: Dance Language Controversy and House Hunting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ruth raises a good point, to wit, is the bee doing the dance initiating a behavior, or responding to others. This point would be difficult to prove, but if you could, you could presumably solve the controversy once and for all. Wade Jensen In Snowy Northern Ohio -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 10:43:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: the real problems that beekeepers face Quote: >Millions of dollars have now been spent repeatedly trying to prove >that bee "language" is real, despite earlier claims by researchers that >they have already "proven" the hypothesis true. Wouldn't all that >expenditure of time and money be better spent on real problems that >beekeepers face every day? Dear group, I feel I must point out that the most of the money spent studying honey bee communication could not have been spent on "real problems" simply because it was used by people who are not working in that field. The research into bee dances, etc. is carried out by people like Tom Seeley, who isn't an entomologist at all and is studying a much bigger picture. I have met Tom Seeley and I believe that everyone who meets him comes away with the impression that he is a brilliant and thoughtful scientist. He is not very likely to be deluding himself nor anyone else. Some info from his web page: Thomas D. Seeley Department of Neurobiology Cornell University My scientific work focuses on understanding one of the five major transitions in evolution, namely the transition from organism to group as the highest level of functionally organized entity. To understand this transition, we must solve two puzzles: Why is there strong cooperation among the members of a highly integrated group? and How do the members of such a group work together as an adaptive unit? My students and I address both of these questions by investigating colonies of honey bees. Some of the principal findings that I and my students have made in studying the functional unity of honey bee colonies are described briefly: A colony chooses its future home site carefully and well. The decision-making process during nest-site selection utilizes a curious means of consensus building. Courses Taught: Introduction to Behavior; Animal Communication; Mechanisms of Insect Behavior; Biology of Social Insects; Major Transitions in Evolution http://tinyurl.com/hm5ee http://www.nbb.cornell.edu/neurobio/department/Faculty/seeley/seeley.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 06:27:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Greek Study Finds Honey Contaminated with Chemicals Used to Treat for Wax-Moths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Contamination of Honey by Chemicals Applied to Protect Honeybee Combs from Wax-Moth Food Addit Contam, 2006 Feb;23(2):159-63 Greek honey was monitored during a three-year surveillance program for residues of chemicals used to protect honey-bee combs from wax-moth. A total of 115 samples purchased from stores (commercial samples) and 1060 samples collected from beekeepers (bulk samples) were analysed for 1,4-dichlorobenzene (p-DCB), 1,2-dibromoethane (DBE) and naphthalene... For full abstract, see Apitherapy News: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 08:34:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Riley, Odor In-Reply-To: <44084BD7.5050403@lineone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:59 AM 3/3/2006, you wrote: Dave said: , Our experience is just the opposite, it has very specific effects, such as altering ability and rate of turning, etc. You try flying with a telephone pole sticking out of your back or dragging a logging chain. So, a study that says novice bees fly straight lines from the hives (again, I'm NOT objecting to a Riley study here), turn, and come back -- is just what one would expect of such a burdened bees. Ours were barely able to get off the ground, at less weight and drag. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 09:17:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Graduate Students Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bill said: I hope that's tongue in cheek. I've had some wonderful graduate students, but I now encourage undergraduates, rarely take on graduate students. The reason is simple. Its due to my history and how I'm funded. I've worked in bee research for 31 year. I came out of school in the wrong place, at the wrong time -- or maybe in the right place or the right time. Jobs for entomologists with Ph.D.s were few and far between. So, I took up a post-doc at UM, working on studies of the big coal development in eastern MT. That forced me to deal with the 6000+ beehives surrounding the coal mine/power plant complex. As things tend to do, the bee work turned out to be more useful to the federal and state agencies than the more basic work, such as the effects of sulfur dioxide on dung beetles, or impacts to rangeland pests. Fortunately, the latter didn't pan out, if it had, every rancher would have wanted a power plant to fumigate the fields. Well, there were jobs, but usually in large cities, and I'm and old farmer (first 20 yrs of my life), and I'm 3rd generation Montanan, and I like Missoula -- so I took the less worn track. FYI, although I am a professor at UM, in a sense, I've never had a job at UM. Every penny of our research comes from outside, usually competitively won, contracts and grants. If I have a specialty, its convincing agencies and user groups, who never thought that bees had any importance to them, that they should invest in our bee research. To date, I've gotten $1500 (career total) from USDA Ag for bee research. I've received enough from EPA, DOD, DOE, BLM, Forest Service, State of MT, Germany, Croatia, Malaysia, several S. American countries, seed companies, etc. to keep a program going. And, I usually have to go to them first, convince them to even listen. Good thing bees are such amazing critters, they sell themselves. In recent years, our main client has been the Department of Defense. They initially came to us (an exception to the rule), and wanted a solution. We've come up with a boatload of technology since that first contract in 1995. However, DoD funds run on 1 year cycles -- even if you get a multi-year project, they can pull the plug at any time. And the higher the risk of failure, the more fickle the funds. I lost more than a few hairs with our first DARPA project - especially over the language that allows them to stop the work on short notice. DARPA likes to brag that they fund the high risk, high payoff that no other agency would fund. But they want transition, and in a hurry. Six month contracts aren't unusual. That's not good for a graduate student - starts them on the path, then the dollars run out. However, I can hire on as many undergraduates as I need, for the periods that I need, and not destroy some long-term project that is the ticket to their own future. These UGs learn on the job and we pay better than most -- if I'm asking them to take the risk of long-term employment, then I try to compensate appropriately. So, how does it work? Well, if we have a fall-off of $$ -- usually because of delays in funding cycles, although we're also experienced some revolving door problems, I cut back or lay off the students, with as much help as we can give them to find temp work elsewhere. Soon as the $$ come in the door, they come back. Seems to work, most stick with us from the first time they walk in the door until they graduate. Now, the best thing is that these students get a wealth of experience. They work summers on odd sites like Sandia labs and Yuma Proving Grounds. They see and do things most UGs barely image. They do research where the science has to be exacting -- people's lives may depend on it (Are any of you going to follow a bee across a mine field). I always tell the students -- Remember, you're likely to be the first ones to cross. These students get to play with our toys, and most become full members of the team, working to solve the next challenge. Best of all, they're really competitive for good slots at other Graduate Schools -- its not a good thing in our academic society to get all of your training at one location -- I suffered from that bad choice. I'll put our juniors and seniors up against most any Ph.D. candidate. What they might lack in training is made up for in motivation and enthusiasm. You don't see us publish much, because the DoD doesn't want us to publish lots of what we do. Fortunately, landmines is not a major issue with DoD, so we can talk about that aspect. We can also spin out some of our developments, like the RFID hive marking and tracking systems. So, today, as in every other year, we're looking for the next contract. We've got funding through June, 2007 -- that's a very long time in our world, a rare luxury. I'm so non-traditional, my Division of Biological Sciences struggles on how to evaluate, the University doesn't want to fund the 18 people involved in our academic side of operations (part time senior scientists, technicians, students -- 4 at the moment, will be 12 in the summer) and pay my own salary, nor commit to our equipment and travel needs. However, they back us in other ways, and they get a nice piece of change in IDCs for housing us. However, don't expect me to retire soon, as have many of the bee scientists and colleagues of my generation. We're so close to being able to make a difference -- to DoD, to the Humanitarian Demining Groups, and hopefully, to beekeeping -- I'd be a fool to retire now and miss all the fun. I don't need papers to stroke my ego. And I don't need to take sides on the DL issue, although I'll stir the pot once in a while. Soon as I get a couple of our new lasers, we'll get our answers. And my goals are never modest -- save some of the 20,000 people a year who are maimed or killed by mines (50% children), help our troops and homeland security (much as I can say), and revolutionize beekeeping (we working to effect a change as radical as the transition from the thrashing machine to the yield mapping combine). All for now, we put together three research proposals since last Monday, have more to write. Cheers Jerry P.S. Would I recommend full-time soft money as a career option? Definitely NOT! Has it been productive - yes. It keeps us hungry and pushing the frontiers. Can't depend on someone else just paying the bills. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 19:17:31 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Riley, Odor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jerry > So, a study that says novice bees fly straight lines > from the hives (again, I'm NOT objecting to a Riley > study here), turn, and come back -- is just what one > would expect of such a burdened bees. If you haven't had a look at the study recently, have a look at the paper at the link which Jim told us about a few days ago: http://www.honeybee.neurobiologie.fu-berlin.de/column/publications.html It is paper no. 21. Why am I back harping on about this study again when you are not objecting to it? Well, the only feasible way of explaining away their results (apart from gross negligence or fraud) is if the transponders caused the bees to fly on a compass bearing of about 90 degrees. There is no reason, as far as I can tell, why such interference should make them do that. Is there *any* study that says they fly out, burdened, turn and try to come back? The Riley figure is very clear. The bees are flying away from the hive, then at the approximate hive-to-feeder distance their flights become more erratic. The only bees which have a consistent turn (through up to 90 degrees only) are some of those which were displaced SW, and these bees turned towards the hive as they approached it and met familiar territory. They would not have expected to see the hive there as they were taken some distance away in opaque tubes. It seems fairly clear that the bees in the Riley study are not flying out, turning, and coming back again. Their flight patterns are exactly what you would expect from novice bees knowing which bearing to fly on and how far. Granted, that telegraph pole might slow them down somewhat and perhaps curtail any 'searching' flight patterns at the end of the flight, but what we're talking about here is just whether or not that study shows the bees using the information in the waggle dance. I'd have thought that it is clear that it does (not forgetting that, in normal circumstances, it would be part of a package of possible cues including odour). all the best Gavin. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 22:04:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Predrag Cvetkovic Subject: Re: Traits & Characteristics Excellant Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, thanks a lot for your kind response. I find your answers extremely interesting and so important and useful to every beekeeper. I see I am not ready to make more question now, it would be better for me to look at your book on beesource.com again. Only two remarks now. Dee wrote: > 14. Early and pre-flow build-ups: Early strong brooding > using stored honey/pollen prior to first blooms, instead of > building up only when first blooms start, with good > reworking of comb cells for storage shifts and/or brood. Predrag's reply: One very big and very experianced elderly beekeeper (for our conditions 800-1000 hives is a big number), Ivan Vener, says: If I could order a queen when to start laying after winter, I would order her to start as late as it is possible (of course, not in April :) my remark ). Could you tell me your opinion about that, please? Our bees are Carniolan. Dee wrote: > Now list for the bad: > > > 2. Cluster ability and fanning ability: Not able to cluster > as a single unit, excessive consumption of stores, poor > movement as needed during winter, and not able to dry > nectar adequately during hot weather, and not able to keep > brood cool and humidified properly hot weather. Predrag's reply: Several years ago I perceived very noticeable difference in thickness of capped honey between one hive and all others. Cells were well capped in all hives, but honey was with very high percentage of water only in that hive, not in others. It was very interesting experience. I remember, I imputed that to bees (queen) and decided to eliminate/change that queen. Best regards Predrag -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 03:11:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: Riley, Odor In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060306083108.03eac4f0@msoexchvs1.gs.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline To Jerry, Hi, While I do not question your experience with the disturbing effects of attaching transponders to honeybees, I also do not question the very different experience Riley et al. (Nature 2005) had, in this respect. I als= o find it impossible to accept that the radar-tracks they obtain can, in any way be explained as a result of problems caused by the transponders. (Where I have a serious problem, and for some very good reasons too, is with the identity of the radar-tracked bees. This, in spite of assurance from the authors about the procedures, which would have exempted any re-recruited trained forager from being included among the bees tracked in this study.) I believe I can explain the seeming contradiction between your experience, and the experience of Riley et al., with transponders; on the basis of the specific honeybee-strains used. We know that there must be considerable differences of detail in the physiology of flight among different honeybee species, and strains. We also know that the various dance-forms in any species, or strain, are actually variations on one and the same theme, where round dances change to figure-8 waggle-dances, to figure S waggle-dances, as the speed of the dance slows down, i.e. as the bees end up more exhausted when they return to the hive, from a greater distance. If we now restrict ourselves only to different strains of the species A. mellifera, where workers of different strains are about the same size and weight, we know that they have what v. Frisch called different "dialects", i.e. that bees of different strains dance at a different speed for one and the same distance. As a result of that, the round dance-range, i.e. the distance for which no round dances are performed anymore, differs from one strain to another. It is close to 100m. from the hive for the Austrian honeybee-strain, less than 20m. from the hive for the Italian honeybee-strain, and some 65m. for American bees, which seem to be a mix of various other strains. What this means is that, in spite of being of about the same size and weight, Austrian honeybees (which Riley et al. used in Germany), end up being less exhausted than the same distance from the hive. I.e., in some sense, the Austrian honeybees are "better" fliers; which could enable them to manage in spite of the transponders attached to them; which your America= n bees were unable to do. I could, in no way, qualify in what way the Austrian honeybees are "better" fliers, because no one has ever even begun to study the flight-physiology o= f different honeybee-strains to an extent that would make it possible to identify the differences, which obviously must exist. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 07:24:50 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Fischer Alchemy Subject: Re: Dance Language Controversy & House hunting "Controversy"? Positioning the issue as a "Controversy" certainly does poison the well right off the bat, doesn't it? And it works for so many issues, too: http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html?uc_full_date=20060305 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:21:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Erwan Cassard Subject: cecropia queen Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hi, i'm a french beekeeper and i'm looking for a breeder of Cecropia queen I want to buy 50 of them. If someone have a adress for me, thanks. Regards Erwan Cassard Souleilla 31430 Pouy-de-Touges 05.61.98.59.98 erwanetmoi@tiscali.fr -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:54:17 -0600 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: Re: Riley,Odor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For Ruth Rosin, For those of you who are amongst the undecided or questioning, which is by my estimate the safest place to be, you might try to wade through some of the articles listed at the site below: http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2004/02/contents/contents.html There is a wealth of information on the communication of bees that requires much time to digest. I have only a few questions for you Ruth and the first is: What percentage of correct information has to be transferred to be considered an actual passing of information from one bee to the many? The second would be: Since we are aware of the genotype variations in HDL would this be a possible answer to the variation in levels of accuracy of interpretation of HDL due to our genetic juggling of the past 50 - 100 years? The third is: How do you explain the misdirection experiments done by Riley, where release points are changed and yet recruits still fly to where the source should be, instead of where it actually is? The fourth is: What is the purpose of DL and it’s expression as instinctual behavior of nectar gathering bees, if not for the purpose of increasing the odds of locating nectar sources and nest sites? The fifth is: How do you account for the experiments of Kalmus (1957) and Lindauer (1959) regarding the ability of bees to learn to correctly compensate for reverse movement of the sun when moved from southern hemisphere to the northern hemisphere? Why would that make any difference? And Lastly: How do you explain the apparent nest site selection preference and consensus in swarm scouts? Since it has been demonstrated that swarms have undoubted selection, recruitment and consensus processes for arriving at a “ best of N†site with preferential criteria again demonstrated recently by Seeley and Visscher in 2001. This entire dialog regarding DL has been stimulating and quite informative. I had a chance the other day to talk at lunch with Tom Seeley at our meeting in K.C. and he is indeed a keen observer and information gatherer much like his predecessors, whether they be right or wrong, depending upon your “beliefs“. To say that we have all of the information necessary to formulate valid and lasting opinions, might be a wee bit arrogant of us. Tim Tucker Group decision making in nest-site selection by honey bees p. 101 Thomas D. Seeley and P. Kirk Visscher The vibration signal, modulatory communication and the organization of labor in honey bees, Apis mellifera p. 117 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 16:52:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Negative evidence Comments: cc: jgraham@dadant.com, Robt Mann , Barry Birkey , Patrick Wells , Kim Flottum , "Gard W. Otis" , esmith06@uoguelph.ca, Eric Mussen In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear BEE-L subscribers, We have had a lot of exchange about "bee language" on BEE-L this past couple of weeks, with some of the postings coming from several dedicated bee language advocates (and one newly "converted" advocate). I deeply appreciate their various comments, because it provides yet another chance to clarify matters with solid evidence. Although several contributors seem enthralled by the radar-tracking experiments, I feel that Riley and co-workers failed on a number of counts: 1) They assumed that one can catch a bee after it leaves a dancing bee and before it leaves a hive — and then that it might "intend" to go to a specific site (an assumption never proved). They then glued a weight onto its back, released it, and expected that bee to behave as if nothing had happened — that its "programming would not have been altered by the treatment. 2) They ignored basic tenets about experimental techniques that have been with us for 140 years. For instance, as Claude Bernard (father of modern experimental biology) wrote in 1865, " ... when we have put forth an idea or a theory in science [ in this case "dance language" ], our object must not be to preserve it by seeking everything that may support it and setting aside everything that may weaken it." (More on that below) 3) Their experiment lacked adequate controls. For instance, they did not radar-track bees that had attended dancers that had "indicated" a different direction than the one they anticipated. Nor did they track bees that left the hive but had not attended dancers. 4) They erroneously presumed that their conclusion (that bees had "used" direction information obtained from dancers) was the only interpretation that could be reached from their results. The most egregious of the above, perhaps, is that they "set aside all evidence that might weaken" their mind set. That is, they tried mightily to prove the bee language hypothesis true instead of putting it to a real test (e.g., blind, double blind, etc.). (Please note that I do not dispute that the couple dozen tracked bees that they reported upon all went off in the same direction.) In response, I present here some of the evidence that language advocates consistently ignore (as indicated in point 2, above), evidence that comes from only one of our many publications on the matter. (No, you will not find this evidence summarized in any publication written by bee language advocates — for obvious reasons, as listed in point #2, above.) The evidence as summarized below appeared in the journal SCIENCE, after thorough pre-publication review by anonymous referees. That paper can be found at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/sci1969.htm In those experiments (as in others) we employed rigorous controls, as well as blind and double blind techniques. Neither organizers nor participants knew what results to expect. All test stations were cleaned and fresh glassware with new sugar solution set up each 15 minutes. Dirty glassware was placed in sealed plastic bags. Data gatherers at each station had no contact with others during the full three hour period each day. Marked bees regularly flew between hive and feeding stations. Arriving unmarked recruits were gently picked up and dropped into bottles of alcohol for later tallying. We did not try to prove any hypothesis true but strove to learn what cues recruits use when they search in the field for food sources visited by regular foragers. (We had already learned from earlier experiments that recruits end up at a set of scented stations according to their geometrical placement in the field — rather than in a distribution predicted by the language hypothesis.) Here are the results from two of the sets of experiments: SET #1) In that 1969 SCIENCE paper we concluded in part: "That bees locate a food source by olfaction is especially possible in view of the extremely low recruitment rate of regular foragers collecting unscented sucrose at an unscented site. On 25 July 1968, for instance, in the absence of a major nectar source for the colony, we received only five recruits from a hive of approximately 60,000 bees after ten bees had foraged at each of four stations for a total of 1374 round trips during a 3-hour period." (That averages out as 0.0036 recruits per forager bee round trip at unscented food during a period of scarce natural forage.) We knew from other earlier experiments that: a) the less odor in the food, the more frequently foragers dance in the hive and b) foragers expose their Nasanov glands most often at unscented feeding stations in the field. In other words, searching recruits in our experiment did not find the target stations, despite the fact that foragers danced more often than ever in the hive and exposed their Nasanov glands nearly every time they fed at the dishes. There was thus nearly always a distinctive odor at the feeding stations (N.G. gland odor) — but not an odor that recruits had associated with the sugar solution reward before leaving their hive. In the summer of 2003 I demonstrated that same result to a group of military and civilian observers in Maryland. We had about 40 colonies of bees feeding on unscented sugar solution at various test stations. Each test station had a scent (odor of an explosive chemical) associated with but separate from the sugar solution. Recruitment was very high at all such test stations. At another location I set up a dish of unscented solution but with no associated scent. During a 3-hour period, no searching bees landed at that unscented station. In December of 2005 a film crew came here to Santa Barbara from France to get footage for a film on "animal language," choosing me as the focus for bee communication. I demonstrated how to train honey bees to visit food sources. In addition, I set out a dish of unscented sugar solution and had them train a camera on that dish. Even though foragers collected unscented food for a full two days from dishes with a scent associated with the reward — and recruits regularly showed up at those scented dishes — no bees arrived at the dish with unscented solution that lacked the appropriate associated scent. I feel very confident that I can demonstrate this failure of bees to find unscented sugar solution at any time and in any place — given very tight controls on how the sugar solution is prepared. SET #2) Consider the results of a more extensive set of experiments as reported in that 1969 paper. During the summer in Santa Barbara we have remarkably uniform weather. That condition permitted us to run an uninterrupted series of recruitment experiments for 24 consecutive days. One can see ALL the results we obtained in Table 1 of that paper (see URL, above). A synopsis follows. Ten marked bees regularly visited each of two stations at 200 m from their hive and 280 m from each other. On some days we used unscented sugar solution; on other days we used scented solution. Each trip by each bee was tallied, as was the number of unmarked recruits captured and the number of times marked foragers exposed their Nasanov gland. RESULTS: A) Only 86 recruits arrived during a total of 18 hours (on six days) at dishes that had unscented food. During those hours, 10 foragers made repeated regular trips to each dish and exposed their Nasanov glands 2,187 times. B) By contrast, 1,717 recruits arrived during a total of 33 hours (on 11 days) at dishes that had scented food, with foragers exposing their Nasanov glands 2,096 times. SUMMARY: Recruits per hour to unscented food — 5; N.G. exposure at the station, 243 per hour Recruits per hour to scented food — 156; N.G. exposure at the station, 127 per hour Those results were obtained in an experiment with an A PRIORI "crucial experiment" design (not the weaker A POSTERIORI interpretation by Gavin Ramsey about the radar-tracking study). To continue, on some days of the 24-day sequence, we switched the two target stations to unscented solution, set up a test station between the two of them, and provided scented solution at that third station instead. (Regular foragers continued to fly and collect unscented solution from stations at which they had been trained, but no such foragers ever landed on the third, test station.) On those test days, recruits that left the hive could either use direction and distance information obtained from a dancing bee, as expected by the language hypothesis, OR they could search for the odor of the food that had been brought into the hive the previous day. That is what one means by a true "crucial experiment" (or "strong inference" experiment). The searching bees could either go to where they had supposedly been directed by the dance maneuver (to one of the two stations visited by foragers) or they could search for the food odor (at a third station never frequented by foragers) — a mutually exclusive set of outcomes. RESULTS: Consider here the results from 8 of those days of the experiment — four days in which recruits arrived at stations with regular foragers feeding on scented stations and four days of recruits arriving the day immediately after, when foragers fed on unscented food. A) When foragers fed on scented food, a total of 666 recruits arrived on those four days. The Nasanov gland was exposed only 721 times. B) When foragers fed upon unscented food on subsequent days, a total of only 33 recruits arrived at the two stations visited by forager bees. However, 224 recruits arrived at the third test station instead, which had the scented food used on the previous day — though no foragers ever fed from that intermediate station. That low turnout of recruits (33) at the two stations visited by regular foragers that collected unscented sucrose solution occurred despite the fact that, collectively, foragers exposed their Nasanov glands 1,218 times. SUMMARY: Recruits should have arrived primarily at the two stations where bees visited unscented solution IF they had used dance maneuver information. Instead, 87% of the recruits arrived at the single test station that had no foragers but had the scented food used the day before. [NOTE: In 1946 von Frisch published some similar results, results that revealed that Nasanov gland scent failed to attract recruits. He dismissed the disconnect between his results and his earlier hypothesis that it did so, as follows: " ... there is no doubt about the existence of an attraction exerted by the scent organ ... which has also been confirmed in further experiments into which I do not want to go here... " One can find a complete coverage of the Nasanov gland hypothesis problem in Excursus NG of our 1990 Columbia University Press book at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/EXC_NG.htm Did our crucial experiment ever get repeated? Yes, but only in part. That is a very interesting story in itself. The powers that be were apparently deeply disturbed by the rigorous nature of our experimental design and by its implications. Unbeknownst to us, those powers (apparently including E.O. Wilson) arranged for Martin Lindauer from Germany to come to Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute in the following summer to repeat our experiments there, presumably to determine what we had done wrong. (As one might normally expect out of professional courtesy, they did not invite any of us to participate.) Lindauer obtained much the same set of results that we had obtained, though he apparently could not bring himself to use unscented food at the two regular feeding stations. Recruits still arrived preferentially at the central station when odor was provided there on a subsequent day. Did that shake his (or others) faith in the language hypothesis? Not at all. Instead, Lindauer concluded (without observation) that recruits must have paid attention to dance maneuver information from dancers that visited both outside stations, averaged the directional information, and flown out to the central test station. He thus ascribed even more capability to bees than earlier claimed (an ability to average directional information). In doing so, he ignored the fact that recruits failed to arrive in larger numbers at the two outside stations than at the central station — even though Nasanov gland exposure by regular foragers would have been high there and absent at the central station not visited by foragers. Anyone can repeat the above experiments in a few weeks in late summer during a nectar dearth. All one has to do is to be willing to accept the results obtained and not dismiss results that may not match prior expectations. RADAR TRACKING STUDIES It would appear that some people think the radar tracking study is on a par with or superior to the studies we have done earlier. However, I fail to see how the radar tracking study can in any way compare with results obtained in the above comprehensive study and others we have done. Just because radar tracking involved a high-tech approach does not mean the experiment has a more rigorous design. The opposite is, in fact, true — as explained in my introductory comments above. As for me, I am going to stick by my guns. I trust results of the natural behavior of thousands of unmolested bees obtained by use of blind, double controlled, and true crucial experiments more than interpretation of results obtained from the behavior of a couple dozen bees by someone else who tries to prove a favored hypothesis true. The two types of experiments are not on a par with one another. Neither should a believer in bee language be willing to discard evidence obtained about the behavior of thousands of unmolested searching bees. Neither is all this controversy about a perceived unwillingness on my part to change my mind if compelling counter evidence comes in. One cannot erase from Nature the documentation we have published about the behavior of searching bees. Nor is it all about what I, personally, might WANT bees to do, it's about how bees really behave. That's one of the reasons I recently published the review paper found at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/jib2002.htm This continuing saga reminds me of a statement by Nobel Laurate Peter Medawar: "It is a common failing — and one that I have myself suffered from — to fall in love with a hypothesis and to be unwilling to take no for an answer. A love affair with a pet hypothesis can waste years of precious time. There is very often no finally decisive yes, though quite often there can be a decisive no." Have we wasted enough time and resources on this controversy yet? Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ******************************************************************* “The more persuasive the evidence against a belief, the more virtuous it is deemed to persist in it.” Robert Park — 2000 (Voodoo Science) ******************************************************************* -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:44:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: DL controversy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi All, I want to add an argument I had already brought up on several other sites o= n the Internet, that would make the DL hypothesis even far less attractive than any of its staunch supporters believe it to be. DL INFORMATION DOES NO= T INDICATE THE SITE VISITED BY THE DANCERS, NOR EVEN THE VICINITY OF THAT SITE. We know that direction-information for any specific site has a normal distribution. This means that the majority of dance-attendants would be subject to incorrect direction-information. Even a small deviation from the correct direction translates to a considerably large distance from the correct site, when the site is far from the hive. Moreover, to uphold his D= L hypothesis, v. Frisch was obliged to introduce (as one of his very many auxiliary hypotheses), the claim that recruits contribute errors of their own, to the errors contained in foragers'-dances, to the extent that the combined errors can even send some recruits in exactly the opposite direction to that of the foragers'-feeder. Distance-information contained in dances suffers from the same type of problems. But, it also suffers from another major problem. V. Frisch concluded that distance-information in dances is determined by the expenditure of energy; which makes sense. The foragers are more exhausted, and, therefore, dance more slowly after flying to a more distant feeder and back. He concluded, however, on the basis of various tests done by himself, and by others, that, more specifically, distance-information in dances is determined by the amount of energy spent on flight to the feeder and back, with the amount spent on returning to the hive given a smaller weight. Neve= r mind that this requires the foragers to separately measure the amount of energy spent on the flight to the feeder, and back, then multiply the amoun= t spent on returning to the hive by the weighing factor (which must be smalle= r than one), and add the result to the amount spent on the flight to the feeder. There is no evidence that honeybees can do any of that. Besides, if they could separately measure the amount of energy spent on the flight back to the hive, why take it into account at all, as v. Frisch claimed that the foragers did? Recruits need to know the distance to fly in terms of the amount of energy needed to fly unloaded, from the hive to the food. When the foragers fly back to the hive, they fly loaded, and in stabl= e wind conditions, they also fly in exactly the reverse direction in relation to the direction of the wind when they flew to the feeder (except in the rare case of a crosswind flight). In other words, the amount of energy spen= t on returning to the hive would only mislead recruits. Well, at least giving that amount a smaller weight, ameliorates the problem to some extent. Why d= o the foragers not exclude an effect of this misleading amount of energy, after measuring it separately? V. Frisch would claim that the bees do it al= l 'instinctively", and evolution has simply not made it possible for them to ignore the effect of the misleading amount of energy, but it endowed the bees with an ability to give that amount a smaller weight. You don't argue with anything that evolution can presumably achieve through "instincts" (unless, like me, and many others, you don't believe in the existence of "instincts" in the first place). Lindauer, with his penchant for "inventions", however, "solved" the problem of the misleading amount of energy by simply stating (without the slightest evidence), that under natural conditions distance-indication depends only o= n the amount of energy spent on the flight from the hive to the food. See: Lindauer, Martin (1976). Foraging and Homing Flight of the Honey-Bee: Some General Problems of Orientation PP. 199-216 in *Insect Flight *. R. C. Rainey, ed. Halsted Press, UK. Many of you must have heard of the more recent "solution" to the problem, i= n a form which exclude the effects of the expenditure of energy altogether, and claims, instead, that honeybee-foragers have an "odometer", that enables them to measure distance-flown by the total amount of angular deviations of "background images". I.e., distance-indication in dances depends on what the foragers see along the way. (What about the effect of the expenditure of energy? It appears to have somehow disappeared. Where di= d it go, though?) Interestingly, the possibility that optic-stimuli might affect distance-indication in dances was already raised by Lindauer , in the publication noted above, where, very interestingly, he also notes unpublished findings by Meese, that visual properties of the environment in which the foragers fly, have no effect whatsoever on the distance-indicatio= n in their dances. If Meese had only published his findings! Had he done that we would have been spared all the egregious nonsense about the honeybee "odometer". So, we have no choice but to return to the issue of the expenditure of energy on distance-indication in foragers'-dances. Contrary to v. Frisch, Khalifman, however, claimed in Pchelovodstvo of 1950 (without bothering to provide any information about tests and results), that distance-indication depends only on the flight from the food back to the hive). This, naturally= , spells disaster for the DL hypothesis, and was (therefore), completely ignored by DL supporters, except (as far as I know), for Butler, who noted Khalifman's claim in his 1962 book: "The World of the Honeybee", and dismissed it with his pronouncement that Khalifman must have erred. Basic physiological considerations, however, lead to the conclusion that , under the most common experimental conditions (feeder not inordinately far from the hive, filled with enough sugar-water for many foragers to repeatedly fill their honey-sacs there), Khalifman's claim must be correct = . Why? Because when they feed at the feeder the foragers rest, and also "refuel". All the after-effects of the flight from the hive to the food, in terms of physiological exhaustion, and expenditure of energy, must, therefore, completely disappear by the time the foragers prepare to fly bac= k to the hive! Incidentally, Bizetzky, a colleague of v. Frisch discovered that foragers indicate a far greater distance than actually traversed, when forced to crawl, instead of fly to the food & back. It is now obvious to me that this involves a very different situation, because when the foragers crawl, apart from a general physiological exhaustion resulting from this activity, there is also a specific physiological exhaustion of the leg-muscles, the main organs used in dancing. There is also an additional effect of the difficult= y of getting rid of excess body-heat produced by physical activity, when the bee moves relatively slowly through the air, i.e. when it crawls instead of flying. V. Frisch, however, claimed (in his 1967 book), that crawling requires of honeybees far more energy than flying; which I found incredible the first time I encountered it. I now wish I had stopped right there and then to do what I did only years later, i.e. consider that during the foraging season honeybees spend most of their lives crawling inside the hive, before they even become "field bees", and even active foragers spend = a considerable amount of time crawling, and not flying. Flight certainly save= s time, but it does not at all save energy. Back to Khalifman. His conclusion receives further support from a report by Gould & Gould, in their 1988 book "The Honey Bee", that among bees transported to a feeder in an area where they had apparently never foraged before, there were individuals who found their way back to the hive, and then indicated the feeder in their dances. In other words, the fact that they never spent any energy on flying to the feeder, since they were simply transported to the site, had no effect on their dances. The reason I spend so much time on this issue is that the belief that honeybee dances contain spatial information about the approximate location of the site visited by the foragers, has played a major role in leading man= y to accept that honeybees have a DL. After all, scientists could obtain that spatial information from foragers'-dances. Never mind that scientists could do it only on the basis of a detailed preliminary research on the relation between various aspects of the dance and the distance & direction of the foragers'-feeder, that had to be done separately for each honeybee species = & strain. Many were especially impressed by v. Frisch's own report (see his 1967 book), that he made his assistants train marked foragers to a feeder they hid in the grass, without telling him where it was, and he was then able to find the feeder by studying the dances of those foragers in the hive. Wenner pointed out in print, however (and I can not give you the exact reference, which I do not remember), that v. Frisch was able to do it only after studying many different dances. But for overly naive scientists, and laymen, the very fact that the dances contained information that enable= d scientists to find the foragers'-feeder, raised the issue of what the dance= s could be good for except to provide nest-mate with that kind of information= , and, then, to the conclusion that this is what the dances actually do. Khlifman's probably quite correct conclusion, however, means that the dance= s contain misleading information about the approximate location of the site visited by the dancing foragers. You might think that the problem is nonetheless, not terribly serious, because if you could only ignore the effect of the wind, foragers can carry only a limited amount of food in their honey-sacs, and different individuals may carry a similar amount of food, which does not weigh very much anyway. So the spatial information contained in the dances can not be too misleading anyway., Well, it is boun= d to be terribly misleading when the foragers carry both pollen & nectar, or only pollen, because as Ribbands concluded on the basis of his own studies, and reported in his 1953 book, "The Behaviour and Social Life of Honeybees"= , the weight of the pollen pollen gatherers carry varies with the amount, and the type of pollen, and can amount almost to a foragers' own body weight. This can easily turn distance information contained in foragers'-dances, ca= n easily make distance-information contained in dances, quite useless. What good is distance-information that is determined by the amount of energy spent on the flight from the food back to the hive, when the forager is flying in exactly the opposite direction in relation to the wind, than recruits need to fly, and carries a load that can equal almost its own body weight, when recruits need to fly unloaded? All the information scientists have gathered about foragers'-dances applies only to foragers collecting sugar-water, or anything else that does not weigh much more, and is carried inside the honey-sac. The information is useless, when the dancers carry other types of load. Moreover, evolution could not equip dance-attendants with the ability to obtain useful information from the dances of pollen-gatherers, when dance-attendants have no way of even knowing the weight of the load the foragers brought in. Can anyone still seriously consider the possibility that honeybees may have a DL that informs recruits approximately where to go? I do not even want to begin to consider the far more complex situation that obtains in nature, where foragers need to gather food from many different flowers during each foraging trips, with only brief rests on each flower, and where (according to Ribbands), the foragers can easily fly far longer distances when moving from one flower to another, than they they cover in flying to the foraging area & back, and when different individuals fly very different routes when actually gathering the food. (Ribbands found in tests done in an orchard, that some foragers gather food from flowers on one and the same tree, but others-don't do that at all.) Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 11:33:05 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Negative evidence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Adrian and All I'm left with the impression that we are discussing two well-organised sets of experiments, Riley's and yours, and that the data in both essentially say much the same thing despite being set up to look at different things. Your studies were not designed to prove or negate a role for the waggle dance, but to investigate the discovery of dishes by recruits. Riley and colleagues were not concerned with the discovery of feeders, just the flight trajectory of new recruits. Both your and Riley's data suggest that bees have a hard time discovering the exact location of a food source with no odour. It is likely that they would also use visual cues, and in one of your papers you noted that without these visual cues bees were often reluctant to land. But your studies can say nothing on the question of whether bees are also using the information in the waggle dance. The study of Riley et al can do this, and does. In no way am I 'enthralled' by the technology in Riley's paper and I don't think other contributers are either. I prefer elegant studies whether they use the latest technology or not. What is impressive here is the quality of the study and particularly the well thought out experimental design. I joined this discussion in response to a contribution from a supporter of yours which attempted to rubbish the study of Riley et al. This attack was unjust and unjustified, and it is my belief that most of the points you made in your most recent post on the paper are also unjustified. Let me go through them: 1. You said that Riley and co. 'assumed that one can catch a bee after it leaves a dancing bee' and 'they then glued a weight onto its back, released it, and expected that bee to behave as if nothing had happened'. They designed the experiment so that they *could* efficiently identify and catch bees that had just watched the dance, using a clear plastic tube as the escape route from the experimental hive to make capture of numbered bees possible. We have already discussed at length the behaviour of the bees with the transponders. No one has made *any* suggestion as to why any kind of artifact could cause these bees to fly in the direction indicated by the dance which they had just watched. I don't see a valid objection here. 2. You said that 'they ignored basic tenets about experimental techniques'. Again, this is untrue. Their displacement experiments would have shown two informative outcomes: i, the bees flew on a bearing indicated by the dance; ii, the bees flew to the feeder for some reason other than the information in the dance. The other possible outcome, an uninformative one, would be interference manifested by some element of randomness in the flight taken by the bees. There is *no* indication that the researchers were biased. They interpreted their data as support for von Frisch, that is all. They were perfectly right to do so: their data does provide this support. Conducting an experiment, collecting data, interpreting it, and coming to a conclusion that says that one particular earlier researcher was right does not constitute bias. You have no justification for declaring that they were 'seeking everything that may support it [the dance language theory]'. 3. 'Their experiment lacked adequate controls.' As I said previously, controls of radar-tracked bees which had not watched the dance would have been useful, but may have been difficult to achieve as not all surfaces of the two frames in the experimental colony could be watched. Controls of bees watching an alternative dance might also have been hard to identify in the sparse forage environment in which the experiment was performed. Not having these controls does not negate the study, unless you have a reasonable alternative explanation as to why the displaced bees flew in the direction they did. If you have such an explanation, you haven't yet told us about it. 4. 'They erroneously presumed that their conclusion (that bees had "used" direction information obtained from dancers) was the only interpretation that could be reached from their results.' If you are going to declare their conclusions as 'erroneous', you really have to tell us why! What other explanation is there for the results they presented? 5. You also said that the 'most egregious' was that 'they set aside all evidence that might weaken their mind set.' I have no doubt that you feel strongly about this issue, but you really have no justification for besmirching the reputation of these researchers in this way. They are not here to defend themselves, so I will try. Again, I do not know of any evidence to suggest that they were in any way selective about evidence that would 'weaken their mind-set', and there is absolutely no justification for saying that they 'tried mightily to prove the bee language hypothesis true' (they could just as easily have disproved it in their experimental design). The displacement test was as close to a 'blind' test of competing hypotheses as was possible in a watched observation hive. Your experiments show clearly that odour is an important cue for the precise location of feeders. I have no doubt about that. But you go on to say that your study was designed 'a priori' and you said that my interpretation of Riley's results is 'a posteriori'. The authors of the radar-tracking paper made the interpretations, not me. Their 'crucial experiment' design was just as 'a priori' as yours, and their interpretation, as always, was 'a posteriori', just as your interpretations are. Scientific papers are published so that the a posteriori intepretations can continue, just as we are doing now on the radar-tracking study. Lastly, you quoted Peter Medawar on the common failing of those who fall in love with a hypothesis wasting years of precious time through a stubborn aherence to a favourite view. I really don't mean to be unkind, but it must be obvious to many reading this that these comments, of course, could apply equally to both sides of this debate. best wishes to all Gavin. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 07:26:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: DL controversy In-Reply-To: <7dd5575e0603112044s59dbb7f4hb8fa209979eb3761@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I said before, I do not have a dog in this fight, but there are some simple questions that make the dance theory attractive. 1. If the dance does nothing, then it should have disappeared long ago. 2. How do bees convey information about down-wind nectar sources if odor is all? 3. Why, when a source is detected, do many bees suddenly show up and exploit it? If odor is all, how is distance, direction and quality of the nectar source transferred to those bees? 4. Why is speculation about what is happening dismissed as speculation then the "real reason" is speculated on? (Which is what a lot of posts here are doing. "Their guess is wrong and my guess is right. That is really bad science.) I realize we should not anthropomorphize, but I find it difficult to locate an odor to a specific place without a very random search. However, given some idea where it is coming from, it is more easily found. Fortunately I do not have to watch the person dance, but a simple "in the back of the basement" gives direction and an approximate distance ( lots of smelly things down there). From there on, my nose leads. The odor is there. Everyone in the house can smell it. If there is no wind, it is distributed uniformly and nearly impossible to locate. If one of us finds it, how do the others find it without some direction? In this "controversy" there seems to be little middle ground, where both the dance and odor are part of the whole. But that does make it interesting. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 14:46:43 +0100 Reply-To: jorn_johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: DL controversy In-Reply-To: <44141373.9030700@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DL on vidio http://mkat.iwf.de/index.asp?Signatur=C+1335 Best regards Jorn Johanesson maybe the best and Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net. With integrated update facility. Version 8.0.3.0 now translated into 14 languages with more to come. hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk Bidata support forum = http://www.apimo.dk/apimo_forum/ e-mail apimo@apimo.dk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 14:18:45 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Negative evidence In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Adrian > 1) They assumed that one can catch a bee after it leaves a > dancing bee and before it leaves a hive. The bees concerned were under continuous observation and identified by permanently attached numbered discs > — and then that it might "intend" to go to a > specific site (an assumption never proved). I do not see any such assumption being made. > They then glued a weight onto its back, released it, and > expected that bee to behave as if nothing had happened Not a very significant weight... 3 mg to be be precise, application takes less than one second. the weight is not very significant, the most disruptive effect is that of increased air resistance, but at least that resistance is not particularly directional, the aerial is 16 mm long and cylindrical fine wire apart from a small phasing loop at it's centre with a small shottky diode wafer across the loop. What makes you think that the extra weight will influence the direction of travel ? Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 16:20:37 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: DL controversy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill and All Sometimes I'm glad that I don't have a basement. There is air space under my floorboards though, and I have to admit that it gets smelly down there! OK, you echoed a point made by others: > In this "controversy" there seems to be little middle ground, where both > the dance and odor are part of the whole. But that does make it interesting. Have to admit that I did declare myself, mischievously, to be a newly converted dance language advocate, and maybe you didn't all spot the twinkle in my eye. But the lack of middle ground might be less real than it seems in the heat of the debate. I'm sure that Adrian will have met scientists who have tried to claim that only dance language operates, but I haven't seen anyone on here do so. The two apparently polarised views seem to be: i. the evidence says that it is all odour, though visual cues have a role too, or ii. the evidence says that the dance language can be important for long range direction (and distance) finding by new recruits, but that odour and visual cues are important for the final location. The more extreme view (number iii. odour has no role) hasn't been expressed by anyone here that I can recall. The Riley paper which we've been discussing didn't go for number iii either. all the best Gavin. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 14:48:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Negative evidence Comments: To: "Adrian M. Wenner" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Dr. Wenner I notice you did not address the points raised in Madeleine Beekman's work. She studied nest selection behavior, which (according to her, Seeley, et al) involves evaluating various nest sites, building a quorum on the "best" choice, and flying to the selected site. To me, it seems utterly implausible that a colony could find a preselected nest site deep in the woods using scent alone. Even if the bees could detect a site marked with Nasanov scent from a distance of a mile or more, what would happen if the scouts had marked more than one site? The swarm would presumably be forced to go off in more than one direction, which they don't do. By far the most persuasive aspect of Beekman's work is the fact that thee researchers could alter the outcome of the nest selection process by removing the bees that were "dancing" for the hollow trees and thereby ensuring that the colony would go to the nest site the researchers provided. I think the discovery of the honey bee dance language and the discovery of natural selection have much in common. For centuries, the facts were observed and various hypotheses were put forth. At last, Darwin and others were able to see how it could be that there are very distinct species on the various continents and how this could have come about through natural selection and adaptation to different environments. Subsequently, we have discovered the genetic mechanisms and have learned, for better or worse, how to manipulate them. Just as the development of the atomic bomb proves that we "understand" sub-atomic particles, the production of new species by humans (plants with genes from bacteria, for example) , proves that we have a good grasp of how evolution works, even if we don't know how it started. In the same way, researchers like Beekman and Seeley, operate on the assumption that honey bees *can* understand their own dances -- that they are doing this behavior to communicate information. These researchers are able to predict the outcome of various manipulations, such as removing the dancers that are promoting one site and not another. So the theory has predictive power. In the years since the discovery of the great importance of scent in the process of communicating food sources, all educators have included this information in their presentations on honey bee foraging. But these are the various factors that make up the bees' sensory interface with the outside world. It is not just scent or directional navigation, but all of it. One could easily "prove" that human beings can communicate using only their voice, or using only body language. Obviously, under some circumstances, only the voice is available, such as using the telephone. And other times only a quick glance is needed to say what one wishes, as when one casts a disapproving look at another. Similarly, bees can quickly impart information by offering a drop of nectar ("the buckwheat is flowing again") and another bee can act upon such information instantly. Other times, more information is needed: a new source has been found some miles distant in a different direction from where the colony has been foraging. But the fact that at times we or they use only one mode does not thereby prove that another is superfluous. Bumble bees, lacking any such communication mechanisms, must search anew for food sources and so do not venture far from the nest. They seem content in greenhouses, whereas honey bees are so accustomed to foraging over broad areas, they spend most of their energy trying to get out of the greenhouse. Without a well-developed navigational sense, it is doubtful a bee could go four five miles from the hive and find its way back. Having been lost in woods on several occasions, I know how time consuming it is try to find one's way without some sort of directional guidance, either using the sun or a compass. Simply memorizing landmarks is of no use at all, if one loses sight of those landmarks. In fact, it is more difficult to imagine that bees can memorize thousands of landmarks in order to return home than it is to conceive of their use of directional navigation. I have never understood why it of such great importance to certain individuals to attempt to prove that the honey bee language is a freak of nature and serves no real purpose. The only explanation I have heard that begins to shed light on it is that some people have a deeply held conviction that only humans actually communicate and the rest of living creation is going about life mindlessly. However, there is a huge body of evidence that contradicts this. Just as the bone structure similar to our own five fingered hand can be seen in thousands of other of animals as different as dinosaurs and dogs, so can the evolution of communication and mentality be observed in myriad non-human organisms. Of course, many people are afraid that attributing mental processes to other creatures will increase our sympathy for them. I hope so. Peter Borst Danby NY USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:08:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Hibernation Diet results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not a dieter. I've watched my wife yo-yo diet for years. I don't = have a lot of faith in fad diets, I feel they usually do more harm than = good. I kind of snicker at people who pound away on treadmills, because = I already know that these things burn up more muscle than fat. When = I've needed to control my weight in the past, I've changed my lifestyle. = Over the last few years, I have injured and re-injured my back, forcing = a negative lifestyle on me. I couple of months ago, I had enough. I = was as heavy as I had ever been and felt like crap. I was in near = constant pain. I went to the doctor and found my cholesterol was 329. = I'm now on Zocor. I was forced to diet. I went to a chiropractor for my back. I usually take his advise with a = gain of salt, he and my MD usually disagree with each other and I rarely = fully agree with either. He does have a Nutritionist on staff, however. My wife and Step-daughter had already been on South Beach Diet. My = Doctor and Chiropractor suggested the Mediterranean Diet. I started = eating meals out of the South Beach cookbook with my family for = breakfast and dinner. Immediately, I felt worst and could not sleep. I = started eating Mediterranean Diet lunches, pasta and beans, salad and = beans, beans and beans. I backed off almost all processed foods, red = meats, animal fats. I'm reading labels. I'm not a purist. I still = have an occasional pizza. I ordered the Hibernation Diet book from Amazon.co.uk, not because I had = any stock in it. As a beekeeper the principle amused me. Eat honey and = lose weight while you sleep? Surely you jest. Well, the basic diet suggestions in the book, I was already doing. = Except for the honey. For a guy with bees, I really don't eat that much = honey myself. I'm still in the habit of adding sugar to my coffee. I = started eating honey at bedtime and in my morning coffee. I've boosted = my fiber and fructose intake. I've added whole wheat carbs. I'm not = eating the oily fishes suggested in the diet. (yuck!) I started taking = flaxseed oil supplement. I switched to almost fat free everything. I'm = using olive oil instead. I'm sleeping better, almost like a coma. I feel much better in the = morning and have more energy over the day. More surprisingly, the = couple of days I skipped the honey yielded an opposite negative result. = I am losing some weight. I had leveled out on just diet alone. More = interesting, my body shape is changing. I'm building muscle as fast as = I'm losing fat. I'm losing inches quickly even though the weight has = not dropped that quickly. I can move full 3/4 inch plywood sheets, I = could not do that just a couple of months ago. Results? I have to try to give the proper credit where it is due. My = Chiropractor relived most of my back pain. I lost some weight (14 = pounds) and have gotten stronger, Hibernation Diet helped there. My = original goal was to lower my cholesterol. In six weeks it dropped from = 329 to 216! Zocor did not do that alone. There is something to the = Hibernation diet. I'm still smoking a pack or so a day and my main = liquid intake is still coffee. Jim Hock Wethersfield,CT. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 15:33:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Careers Comments: cc: Robt Mann , Barry Birkey , Patrick Wells , "Gard W. Otis" , esmith06@uoguelph.ca In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060306083852.03ef80b0@mso.umt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear BEE-L subscribers, Honestly, I did not expect that my essay of two days ago would evoke such instantaneous and fiery response in such a short time. I usually spend a few days digesting input from others before responding. While I consider the recent inputs in adamant support of dance language, let me add a note about how some of us bee researcher get to this point. Peter Borst already gave us a sketch of Tom Seeley and how he wasn't really an entomologist. On Mar 6, 2006, at 8:17 AM, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote (in small part): > Bill said: > > mines is you ran out of graduate students.> > > I hope that's tongue in cheek. I've had some wonderful graduate > students, but I now encourage undergraduates, rarely take on graduate > students. > > The reason is simple. Its due to my history and how I'm funded. > > I've worked in bee research for 31 year. I came out of school in the > wrong place, at the wrong time -- or maybe in the right place or the > right time. I thank Jerry for that long exposition about his career. My experience has had some parallels. I, too, grew up on a farm in what would today be considered dire poverty (no electricity, no indoor plumbing, no insulation in the house, or central heating — except for a pot-bellied stove in our small living room), and not enough money for food or clothes — depression days!. Nine people in a small four-room house didn't help, either. But our community did stress integrity and honesty! (An uncle of mine once said, "Honesty as a policy is dishonest!) My home town (Roseau) in NW Minnesota is now a STAR town in that state. My best friend through 12 years of school, Bob Bergland, became Secretary of Agriculture under Jimmy Carter, who asked him if he was honest before putting him on the job. That adherence to honesty is perhaps the major reason I stick to my guns on the bee language controversy. I have no choice! After high school, I received formal training in electronics, mathematics, and physics, while at the same time becoming deeply involved in commercial beekeeping. That exposure sparked an interest in biology, and I then studied biology for the first time in my life and earned a PhD in zoology at the University of Michigan with a speciality in animal behavior. Earlier, while in graduate courses in mathematics, I had gained a thorough background in logic. At Michigan, while in an advanced course in genetics, I learned the distinction between direct and indirect evidence. At the time a debate raged about whether protein or DNA was responsible for genetic transmission. Fortunately, the scientists involved did not reach a consensus that protein was sometimes responsible and sometimes DNA! (A type of logic we now see pressed by some in our current controversy.) Unlike Jerry, though, my wanderings through life as an adult somehow led me into a professor's job. I must confess that I didn't really grasp all this "clawing one's way to the top" that I have seen so many academics engaged in. I just continued my zeal to try and understand what Nature was all about and try not to impose my wishes upon Her. My advancement through the academic ranks benefited from the fact that the University of California has an excellent set of checks and balances. Faculty members at UC, for the most part, get promoted (at least in earlier days) largely on the basis of the quality of their teaching and research — not on how much grant funding they take in. The department doesn't have the final say; campus-wide committees insure that promotions are merited. In time, I taught a well-attended course: "The Nature of Biological Research," where I instilled in the students the importance of teachings by Karl Popper and Thomas Kuhn (names quite unfamiliar at the time to biologists in general). When my colleagues and I inadvertently challenged the bee language hypothesis through experiments such as I discussed in my last posting, our chances to get outside funding dried up completely — anonymous referees, completely committed to bee language dogma, would not permit approval of our funding requests. That's O.K. undergraduate students flocked in to help as volunteers. Then I took a two-decade leave of absence into marine biology (crustacean growth and reproduction) while waiting for tempers to cool (not very cool yet, I guess). If I had to do it all over again, though, I would have to go the same route — rely on what the bees "tell" me. That way was never easy — it included loss of all summer salaries from grants for the rest of my career. It also meant that my graduate students could not have assistance from grants for their research. They didn't mind too much. We developed a great camaraderie and we all toughed it out — and had great fun doing real science. For more information on my career in this area, check out: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/readme.htm In my science methods course (as above), I used the dance language controversy as an example of science in action. That included the following admonition: "...the bee language controversy continues to reach an ever-wider audience ... and promises to become an object lesson in how science progresses - not so much by "proofs" and "discoveries" as by the generation and replacement of hypotheses." Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 19:19:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: DL controversy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ruth & All, What is interesting in the controversy today is a new player has entered the scene. Tom Seeley. Many call Seeley the new "Von Frish". My friend Adrian Wenner sent me signed copy of his book "Anatomy of a Controversy" for which I thank Adrian years ago. I now have a signed copy of "The Wisdom of the Hive " by Tom Seeley. I have read both books. Both these people make strong arguments for their positions. I have to say Tom Seeley's power point presentation on "House Hunting by Honey Bees" at the meeting last week was very impressive evidence for the DL hypothesis. DL is not a big concern of mine. Never has and never will be. Ruth said: (unless, like me, and many others, you don't believe in the existence of "instincts" in the first place). I do find the above curious as I live on a working farm and come from a family of farmers. I observe "learned behavior"( from the mother & other animals) and the behavior animals seem born with all the time. Orphans display the most "instinct" ( or behavior not learned). The dictionary defines "instinct" as: " An innate tendency or response of a given species to act in ways that are essential to its existence, development , and preservation. I have taken animals orphaned by their mothers and given to other animals to raise. Works for awhile until the natural tendency for the species develop . Predatory animals can be loving babies but as they grow older the urge to kill prey always develops. I have let a mother chicken raise both a duck & and baby goose from eggs. The duck could make a sound like a chicken. I still remember the mother chicken trying to get the goose and duck to fly up on the roost in the chicken house. I remember the first time the mother chicken took her brood down by the pond and went near crazy when the duck and goose hit the water. I do not know if the word "instinct" is the correct word but somehow the duck & goose knew the water would not bother them. The baby chickens would not enter the water even after seeing the duck and goose babies swimming around. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 17:47:10 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: Dancing in an observation hive In-Reply-To: <7dd5575e0603112044s59dbb7f4hb8fa209979eb3761@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I did an observation hive for class on Friday, keeping it for markets on Saturday and Sunday. The ob hive consists of 2 brood frames and 1 frame of honey. I've noticed bees dancing in the hive, yet there's no real foraging to be done. They are moving honey from the honey frame down to the brood frames. Just happy bees or are they trying to convey some information? Any comments appreciated..... Howard Kaneohe, Hawaii -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 21:16:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Pollen-bound combs In-Reply-To: <200603130347.k2D3lnQj017470@smtp.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We just had an unseasonably warm weekend in northeast Ohio. When I checked my bees, I was surprised to see them bringing in what appeared to be pollen. There is nothing obvious blooming in the area. I have a few very early blooming crocuses in the yard and even they're just beginning to come up. I've heard on this list that bees will bring in not just pollen but anything that is about the right size and/or texture. If I remember right, that was a key argument in why some of the pesticide dusts are so toxic. I keep the bees in suburbia and can't help but wonder if the bees are bringing in something other than pollen. Lord only knows what kinds of road dust and other chemicals are in the area. Thinking back on it, I've had real problems with pollen-bound frames. They fill frames solid and never use it. I'm now starting to wonder if that was pollen at all. 1. What are the odds that the bees are bringing in something other than pollen? 2. Is there a field-test to find out? (I'm afraid I don't have access to a chemistry lab or even to a particularly powerful microscope.) 3. Is it a reasonable hypothesis that bees kept in more built-up environments may be at greater risk of bringing in non-pollen? 4. If I do nothing, will they eventually discard the non-pollen? Or is it possible that is a contributing factor to the pollen-bound frames? Mike Rossander --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 07:36:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jack Rath Subject: Queen rearing methods for beginners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good morning, Am looking for suggestions on methods best suited for a someone trying to raise perhaps a dozen queens for the first time. I am overwhelmed by the amount of information out there. I have read Harry Laidlaw's book. I have read Doolittle's book and have also studied Dave Cushman's site as well as Larry Connor's series in Bee Culture. I've read up on grafting and no graft methods as well as swarm cell methods. There are so many possibilities. My goal is to requeen my hives and to start about 6 nucs. Is there a method that would be best suited for a small experienced beekeeper completely new to queen rearing? Thanks Jack Rath West Pawlet VT -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:47:17 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Pollen-bound combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>3. Is it a reasonable hypothesis that bees kept in more built-up environments may be at greater risk of bringing in non-pollen? I don't know about non-pollen but here in southern NY, we had another weekend with temps in the low 60-ies. Lots of bees bringing in loads of green, orange, yellow pollen. We walked the neighborhood and saw crocus starting to bloom here and there. There are several old, tall willows but their tops are too high to see if they are blooming... One thing great about built-up areas is that there are many sheltered, southern spots near home stuctures for plants to come into bloom sooner than usual. The bees are great about sniffing those out. I have not seen my bees not use the pollen they store. As the season progresses it all gets eaten up. However, if fall pollen ends up outside of or below the cluster, it can spoil during the winter. I have seen bees cut whole sections of such pollen out. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 07:25:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Pollen-bound combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike & All, All beekeeping is local so hard to answer without looking at your situation close up. You are farther north than me but in the last week the henbit started blooming. Bees bring in a huge amount of pollen from henbit if the weather is warm like it has been (several days close to 80F.) The maples are about done in our area. Some pollen has been coming in almost every warm day in our area. You need to get a pollen trap and learn the colors of different pollen in your area. Then you can tell if your bees are bringing in something other than pollen. My guess is they are not. General answers to your questions as would pertain to my area. 1. What are the odds that the bees are bringing in something other than pollen? Happens rarely when bees are brooding up and running out of pollen for feeding brood. A sign would be tossing dead brood from entrance and the eating of brood plus no stored pollen around the young brood. 2. Is there a field-test to find out? (I'm afraid I don't have access to a chemistry lab or even to a particularly powerful microscope.) Sure. However most beekeepers are familiar with the taste (and color) of fresh pollen. Get a trap and do as I suggested if you are worried. 3. Is it a reasonable hypothesis that bees kept in more built-up environments may be at greater risk of bringing in non-pollen? I suppose but I think what you are seeing is excellent flight days with only pollen to work on (although some early trees also provide nectar). Bees want to start the spring work. If your hives are pollen bound I suspect most was brought in last fall instead of last weekend. The early spring pollen is mostly from trees. A period exists after early tree pollen but before dandelions when bees are needing pollen. A pollen patty helps during this period in many areas. 4. If I do nothing, will they eventually discard the non-pollen? Many bee supply houses will not like what I am about to say. I have had to pull frames of pollen suppliment simply stored and not used. The powder packed in cells. I have never had the same problem with patties made with real pollen. The pulling of pollen bound frames is common in my area. Also honey bound from a strong fall flow. You have to pull these frames (not all and maybe simply move to the outside of the nest) and replace with empty drawn comb to get the swarm working. Especially true of Russian bees. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 09:36:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: Pollen-bound combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Mike Rossander" > 1. What are the odds that the bees are bringing in something other than > pollen? Pretty good. I found birdseed in the combs and in the screened bottom board tray. I was watching them bring it in in January and February. Also, one of the hives started coming in with deep red abdomens on two different days weeks apart. I guess they found a humming bird feeder. There is a red dye in the syrup. I also assume they found a second one some weeks later or the owner refilled it. We live at about the same latitude. I have maples just coming into bloom right now. There is a variety of maples, they don't all bloom at the same time. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 10:08:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Cold Weather Connecticut Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Later May I received two generic Italian queens. Over the season I made = my first attempt to raise queens. My goal was to breed the "Georgia" = out of them, open mating with local drones. (No offence to the South = intended) I successfully raised 11 queens and in August requeened my = hives with the 2nd Great Grand Daughters of the queens I started with. I've noticed some unusual behavior since then. I had one gray queen = that was flatly rejected by the hive. My bees all had a distinct color = pattern that made it easy to find them in the field. Now they are more = uniform. The bees are darker. Late last fall, I found them foraging my syrup jugs on my deck in a = driving rain. =20 Except for the 60 plus degree heat wave we had in January, the queens = have not really been laying. I have feed the pollen substitute and = syrup. They have taken both, but it did not start egg laying. My hives are mostly in full sunlight. They become active earlier in the = morning and stay active later in the day, as long as sunlight is on the = hive. The hives that fall into shadow stop being active. On several occasions, I've seen them foraging at 38 Degrees. On a = couple of occasions I found them out and on my deck at 28 degrees. I've = checked with the some of the old timers in the state. They tell me = their bees are rarely out under 48 degrees. Does anyone have any idea what breed/species/race my queens have been = mating with? Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 10:13:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Pollen-bound combs In-Reply-To: <20060313051645.24792.qmail@web51503.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:16 AM 3/13/2006, you wrote: >We just had an unseasonably warm weekend in northeast Ohio. When I checked my bees, I was surprised to see them bringing in what appeared to be pollen. While bees will bring in dust from bird feeders, etc. I think you are probably seeing real pollen. Here in northwest ohio the silver maple trees started blooming this sunday. Saturday the bees were active and bringing in pollen substitute from my open dry feeders, but Sunday the trees in the yard were buzzing and the bees were bringing in lots and lots of yellow pollen. I did see one bee bring in orange pollen that obviously was from another source, but I have no idea what it was. -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 08:02:10 -0600 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: Riley, Odor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For Ruth, First I will humbly apologize for not referring to the archives before posting a few questions that a couple of which were apparently redundant. I thought I had printed off all of the incoming posts on this issue but found quite a few that I did not have. Somehow I only had one of the three that you posted on March 1st and it was a reply to Jerry B. I will do a better job next time on my research before posting. As I stated this has been a most interesting discussion and extremely informative and it will take me months to fully digest much of the information that is associated with DLH. My Dance Language file has expanded to several subfolders and is beginning to eat up considerable file space. I am not a researcher, an entomologist, a neurobiologist or an anthropologist but simply a beekeeper. Whether there is a dance language or not does not really add directly to my ability to keep my bees alive, produce honey, collect money and pay bills. I have neither ! published or represented either side of this controversy and would feel completely inept in arguing either side of the premise. I am simply asking questions with my own selfish and completely personal interests in consideration for the purpose of education. I need to satisfy my curiosity and attempt to assess the accuracy and performance of those I am choosing to believe. Secondly, I thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions and will beg your favors and patience of a little more time and effort in addressing this meager response. Thirdly, I will assure you that I do have a least a modest understanding of the importance of odor or scent in the evaluation of foraging behavior. As Gavin said, the view that odor has no role in this has never been mentioned by anyone and it is not an issue. My first question in regard to the percentage of correctness was a precursor to the question that I would like to pose now and it is amazingly enough related to the expenditure of energy. I believe that you answered the question correctly stating that it would only require one bee correctly interpreting cues from the dance to lend advantage and a degree of credulity to the hypothesis. I’m sure after reading your most recent post that you are very familiar with how important the expenditure of energy is to the survival of a species. It has been theorized that mans evolution from non-erect to erect stature mainly attributed a conservation of energy to the species. It requires less energy to motivate on two limbs as opposed to four. This small conservation of energy allowed for only a slight advantage in the life of a female and reproduction rates were only fractionally advanced but enough to tip the advantage in this line of adaptation. If, hypothetically spea! king of course, dance language behavior was interpreted correctly a certain percentage of the time, it would offer a savings in the expenditure of energy and would give us reason to understand its very existence and persistence in the honeybee. It would be difficult to give directions to 20 humans and expect them all to show up at a remote site. My wife would say that if I were one of the twenty I would not show up as I do not listen to directions. I would say that she would not show up as she has no ability for any form of spatial representations in her reasoning abilities. It would be, hypothetically speaking again, an obvious expectation that if dance language conveyed information that much of it would be given or interpreted incorrectly, as in most cases, bees do not have the brain power or neuronal plasticity of humans. But if only a small percentage of the time interpretation was correct, it would justify the expenditure of energy in the behavior itsel! f and perpetuate the behavior. My second question is, as you pointed out, only relevant if one supposes the existence of HDL and this is an inappropriate question for you and I apologize. Your response to question number three leaves me unsatiated. I am hungering for more of an explanation. I could for my own justifications, just as easily dismiss many of the experiments of Adrian with questions. Where there any efforts to analyze the exudations at the non-scented feeding stations with the exposure of nasanov glands and perhaps other pheromones as well . Were there any attempts to do gas chromatographic analysis of the actual pheromones released by those few that visited the non scented stations. We know that with the 2-Heptanone pheromone that it acts both as an attractant and a repellent. Perhaps there was enough 2-Heptanone released that the bees were actually in their increased dancing behavior issuing a warming. It tastes like a duck but it doesn’t smell like a duck, so maybe it isn’t worth wasting your time if you’re hunting a duck. And to say that we can fully explain the results of these tests as well might be inaccurate, since we do not have a complete understanding of dance behavior or honey bee pheromones (my belief), and perhaps ( for me in my limited understanding) the results could be explained in other directions. Von Frish also all! uded to the difficulties in relating to taste, especially sugar, when discussing the honeybee. Perhaps like our human sense of taste, odor is as important. I would not advertise or dance for a restaurant that was completely devoid of odor. “Eat at Joe’s BBQ and you won‘t have to worry about any distracting odors of red meat sizzling over a blazing spit. No don’t worry about the smell of our freshly baked rolls distracting you from the scent of those around you or our bathrooms in the hall. Perhaps a crude analogy, but my point is how do we know that honeybees don’t have the same urge to say to the others: Stay the heck away from Joe’s! When you get around to taking number 5 off the back burner, I would appreciate your thoughts. I am well aware that ants in particular use sun orientation for navigation, but ants don’t dance or fly. They are well able to leave scent trails for others to find, so dance is unnecessary. This has been long enough so I won’t go any further other than to explain that I truly do appreciate your comments and Adrian’s lengthy explanation of his testing in this field and I am no one to really challenge them, only question. I never enter into a debate unless willing to take both sides of an issue. I only do that if fully informed and I don’t have the time necessary to even begin to do that presently. And that is my purpose for spending any time or energy in monitoring this discussion, which is simply to find an answer or two and my expectation is that I will not, interpret and perhaps correctly evaluate all of the discussions heretofore and in the future as well. But I will at least observe the dancing going on. Thanks again for your time. Tim Tucker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 15:47:07 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners In-Reply-To: <003801c6469a$ba63d310$53973f94@DadsComputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jack & All I'll jump in on this one and say all of the methods will work, some are better for some purposes and others are suited to larger scale operations. But for an experienced beekeeper wishing to raise a dozen or so queens, I recommend... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/method2.html This can either raise queens or nucs or both at once. It has been revised over many years and produces thousands of pedigree queens every season in UK. It relies on grafting, which is by far the easiest method of all of possibilities. None of the cupkit methods are as reliable and easy as grafting, by far the greatest input required from the beekeeper, is the care after the cells are started and that attention is the same whatever method is used to induce cell raising. The only downside to this method, is making the sliding board to fit an existing wire queen excluder. I say have a go... If it fails, then hopefully you will find out why and learn how to do it better next time. If you have difficulty seeing to do the grafting, get your eyes re-tested. Normal eyes or properly corrected defective vision allows easy visibility of larvae. Another thing often missed in grafting... Do not be afraid to cut away the bulk of the comb, almost down to the midrib... It makes seeing and doing a lot easier. Make sure the grub that you graft is no larger than a comma on a printed page. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 10:56:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners In-Reply-To: <003801c6469a$ba63d310$53973f94@DadsComputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:36 AM 3/13/2006, you wrote: >Is there a method that would be best suited for a small experienced >beekeeper completely new to queen rearing? Thanks For all the overly complicated methods I've read, queen rearing really is relatively simple and most of the things you have probably already done as a beekeeper. (Making splits, finding the queen, etc.) For raising small numbers of queens there is little need to use more complicated schemes involving cell starter hives, finisher hives and incubator hives which are really optimal for large queen production. Nor is there any reason to do the isolation of the queen to ensure a full frame of brood of the right age. It's much easier to just pick a frame and select larvae of the right size/age when you only need a few dozen at a time. Grafting is probably the hardest part and does take a little practice. You can start by practicing with larger larvae and work your way down. You may want to have more than one type of grafting tool handy as everyone seems to have their preference. I like the German stainless steel one myself, but others like the Chinese one (I hated it and never got it to work right at all), and some use homemade ones. Other than a little practice, I think it's more predictable than graft less methods and involves less manipulation and is cheaper than some such as the genter system. Glenn apiaries has a very good description of how to raise queens at http://members.aol.com/queenb95/queenrear.html It's basically what I used when I started raising queens 5 to 10 at a time, and is still what I use now when raising 50+ at a time. It's a very strait forward description and doesn't get caught up in all the variations and extras you can add to the plan. -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 15:18:03 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack Rath asked: > Is there a method that would be best suited for a small experienced > beekeeper completely new to queen rearing? Thanks Queen Rearing Simplified by Vince Cook might help. http://www.planbee.org.uk/store/products/QUEEN-REARING-SIMPLIFIED-C315.html Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 11:15:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jack Rath asked about queen rearing for beginners trying to raise perhaps a dozen queens for the first time. My advice is to take advantage of The Hive and the Honeybee project at Cornell University's Mann Library and read about 40 pages of CC Miller's _50_Years_Among_the_Bees_. Start at http://tinyurl.com/eonxr and use Miller's techniques to raise a few good queens! No grafting, great for the beginner! The Hive and the Honeybee project is a great resource, available to anyone with internet access, 24 X 7. If you are interested in supporting this project, see more at: http://www.easternapiculture.org/programs/phillips.pdf Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 11:26:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Am looking for suggestions on methods best suited for a someone > trying to raise perhaps a dozen queens for the first time. I am > overwhelmed > by the amount of information out there. Don't be, it really isn't that complicated. I tried grafting for the first time last year with improvised tools and failed. I broke down and ordered a grafting tool. By the time it showed up in the mail I had the whole thing figured out. I raised 11 queens last year with out any special equipment and little effort. Wait until you see drones are flying. Set up your nucs with two empty frames, one frame of honey, one frame of emerging brood and one frame with pollen and eggs. All frames go in with the nurse bees attached. The emerging brood is going to gobble up your pollen, so you need to add a little pollen substitute and some kind of syrup feeder. They don't need much. In the beginning, they will not have a lot of foragers, the older bees will fly back to the parent hive. They will need a little feed boost. The bees take care of the rest. It takes 16 days to raise a queen from an egg. It takes a total of 27 days to raise a laying queen from an egg. During this time you should leave them alone. But you won't. :) In a few days that frame with eggs should have a dozen (more or less) queen cells on it. The bees will abort some. The strongest virgin queen should kill off the weaker queens. Some times the bees fail, most of the time they don't. If they don't like the new queen, they may supersede her with her own eggs. It is always a good thing to have some spare queens. There is a little maintenance involved. A new queen lays like crazy. She will always need some empty comb to lay in. When one of her frames start to emerge, it really fills out a nuc. You will need to bring some capped brood back to the parent colony once in a while. Housing became a problem for me. I had a bank incident where the nurse bees rejected all but one queen, I lost four queens that way. They just refused to feed them. I started a double queen hive, just to house queens. I had no real plan to start a new hive. The bees had other ideas. It really did well in the middle of that drought and it is my strongest hive now. I combined it in late August to a single queen hive. After I required in August. I left two nucs to fend for themselves. They raised new queens again and survived the winter with little help from me. So far, all my hives are doing well with out hard chemicals. Kirk Webster came to speak to us at Backyard Beekeepers. He has got a lot a great ideas. Right now, I am weaning my hives out of deeps and into mediums. I'm going to go all mediums. Hive bodies, supers, nucs, everything. First because my back can't handle the deeps and second so every frame is interchangeable. I'm making Kirk's style nucs by dividing mediums with division feeders, to step up my output. I'll be doing more with less. I am going to take another crack at grafting, just for the fun of it. If I keep this up, I'm going to need an outyard! I'm working on a home page with pictures of all this. Watch for the post. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 16:35:53 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Is there a method that would be best suited for a small experienced beekeeper...? I like the following method this season. It does not involve grafting. Take a strong hive and move all of the brood and eggs frames to the upper body leaving a single frame of eggs only in the lower body. The frames adjacent to the egg frame should be packed with lots and lots of pollen, the rest with semi-capped honey. Shake a lot of young bees into the bottom body. Then install a solid divider board bet. the 2 hive bodies providing a separate entrance for the upper body. Make sure the old queen is in the upper body! The foraging bees will return to the lower body to join the shaken young bees on the one frame of eggs. You can shake young bees from other hives to boost the bees in the lower body. You'll get larger (and possibly more) virgins. Larvae will hatch from the eggs within 3 days and will be fed lavishly. About 9 days later, at least several queen cells will be capped. Since there were no larvae to start with, there is no concern about larvae age for the best virgins and you won't have any grafting-related damage to the larvae. When the virgins are within 2 days of emergence, you can carefully cut the cells out and place them in mating nucs or you can place home-made wire cell protectors over each cell. I use wire cell protectors and check daily for emerged virgins and move them to mating boxes when they start emerging. You can cull any under-sized virgins right then or you can let them prove themselves inferior in the mating boxes. I place virgins in mating nucs in queen cages for at least a half day to ensure acceptance. I then release them directly onto a frame and watch how bees react to them. It's best to raise queens when there is a good nectar flow after ample drones have been raised and are mature. In mid-summer in the north-east, one sees plenty of mature drones. Double-grafting supposedly results in better queens. It can be tried down the road.:) Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 17:28:21 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Pollen-bound combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are not trying to identify the pollen just to see if it is pollen, soak the pollen in water to allow it to swell, Mount in stained glycerine jelly (if you have that, if not immerse the pollen in 50% glycerine/water cover with a cover glass and look even at X40 you will see some structure and X100 will obviously show you more. Try your secondary school for the microscope if you have to. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Rossander" . > > > 2. Is there a field-test to find out? (I'm afraid I don't have > access to a chemistry lab or even to a particularly powerful microscope.) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 15:24:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Harned Subject: Pollen - SE New Hampshire In-Reply-To: <20060313.054718.28298.471663@webmail50.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was 67'F last Friday and 60'F last Saturday in SE New Hampshire (North Hampton specifically) and the bees were bringing in the pollen. Not really big loads but some. According to my records it is about two weeks ahead of average and the second earliest I have seen pollen in the past 8 years. > I don't know about non-pollen but here in southern NY, we had another > weekend with temps in the low 60-ies. Lots of bees bringing in loads of > green, orange, yellow pollen. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 20:25:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Installation of queen cells In-Reply-To: <008f01c646c3$f79ee2f0$559c869f@DF9MK81J> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No, I have not researched the archives. Have just been on an extended trip to "chilly" San Diego, woke up on central standard daylight savings time and went to bed on Pacific daylight savings time. I'm whupped! Don't know if I will have the time to find the answer there so going the easy way. Still got lebenty-leben unread e-mails in my mail box. They'll just have to wait until I can get to them. Question: Gonna pick up some queen cells on Friday the 17th. Before installation in five frame nucs, should the bees be queenless for about 24 hours or can I make my splits and install the queen cells about four to six hours later. Don't want the queen cells chewed up and discarded. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 07:07:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Installation of queen cells In-Reply-To: <20060314042532.83350.qmail@web53407.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6CE33BB2 > can I make my splits and install the queen cells about four to six hours > later. I would say yes, especially if you use JzBzs cell protectors. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/279 - Release Date: 3/10/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 07:17:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Careers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian M. Wenner wrote: >Peter Borst already gave us a sketch of Tom Seeley and how he wasn't really an entomologist. Please. I did not say that to impugn Dr. Seeley, but to point out why he is not working on issues of economic importance to beekeepers. He has studied bees most of his life and knows more about their behavior than anyone I have ever met. I have copies of several of his publications which I will email to anyone who is still interested. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 06:34:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Installation of queen cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike & All, I would think 3-4 hours should be enough time for the bees to figure out they are queenless for installing cells. Introducing cells is easier than mated queens. Most commercial beekeepers install cells at dusk. You get faster acceptance of cells & queens in my opinion if nucs are made up from frames from different hives. My two cents worth. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 06:12:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: Re: Queen cell introduction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, Your right, San Diego was cold, I was at San Clemente Beach for a few = days. I give my cells a two day window.I normally make up sets of five = hundred at a time, If I have bad weather or running ahead or behind of = schedule I try to hit the one --three day window, but I shoot for the = two day . The bees are hunger for a queen after the first day, I make = mine up fairly strong 5---6 frames so its best on the stronger ones to = give them some time. Good Luck, Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 09:07:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Re: Careers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mar 14, 2006, at 4:17 AM, Peter Borst wrote: > Adrian M. Wenner wrote: >> Peter Borst already gave us a sketch of Tom Seeley and how he wasn't >> really > an entomologist. Sorry, Peter, I in no way meant to imply that Tom wasn't qualified to work on honey bees. I consider his not being an entomologist a plus. When I was researching universities for graduate study, my entomology professor advised me against going into an entomology program. He said that I should have a broader background and could work in other fields of biology more competently. I thus graduated in zoology (with an emphasis in animal behavior) at the University of Michigan in 1961 (finished in 1960, actually). The advice proved prescient. When the research community rejected our work on honey bee behavior in the late 60s and early 70s, I was already retooling into marine biology research on crustacean growth and reproduction — coming back to bee research after a two decade "sabbatical" when tempers had cooled somewhat. Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 12:25:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >methods best suited for a someone >trying to raise perhaps a dozen queens for the first time Hello Jack and everyone, I do a lot of grafting and occasionally I use the Jenter system for back- up, but for just a dozen queens, I'd just use some swarm cells. Of course, if you're wanting to play around, I'm sure you'll learn a lot by trying to raise cells by grafting. But if you're just wanting twelve good quality queens, I think it would probably be easier and the quality of the queen would depend much less on your expertise if you just used swarm cells. You'll probably have plenty of cells anyway, but if you avoid or do the opposite of the practices recommended for swarm prevention (perhaps on selected breeder colonies) you'll get more cells. Especially as a beginner, I doubt you'll improve on the bees natural system. They'll raise cells when they're strong enough and the conditions are right, and if they choose to raise the cells then they're almost certainly in the right mood to feed and care for them well, too. So if you want to use swarm cells, just go through the hives you'd like to use cells from about once/week during swarm season. If you see a cell on a frame, take the whole frame and put it in a new box with plenty of bees and maybe a couple extra frames of pollen and honey. Use more than one frame of brood if you want to. I would try to transfer the cell about the time it gets capped, so that it's fed by the strong parent colony but removed before they swarm. If you find a cell that's further along, all the better. If you place the new box above a double screen board instead of on its own stand, you won't have to worry about the weather and the transferred brood frame getting chilled. That's my vote for a simple method for raising quality queens on a small scale. Eric Wilkes Co., NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 14:33:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >methods best suited for a someone >trying to raise perhaps a dozen queens for the first time In discussion with someone recently, they told me of a very different method. Pick the hive from which you what the cells Remove the queen Take one of the frames with lots of brood and eggs and with your hive tool score a deep line right across the length of the frame and put it back The bees will supposedly build many a cell with larvae in them right across that line. Comments please Walter Zimmermann Ontario Canada _littlewolfbees@aol.com_ (mailto:littlewolfbees@aol.com) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 09:05:55 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Not so much a suggestion for use in the current discussion (although it would be a reasonable candidate), but a general question... How many of you use the 'Case method' ??? Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 06:42:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > How many of you use the 'Case method' ??? =20 What IS the Case method? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:43:30 +0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: PO Gustafsson Subject: Installation of queen cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I always mix frames and bees from two different hives when making splits. This way they will be totally confused and will accept any cell or queen I give them. No need to wait at all, just leave the cell or queen cage there at the same time you make up the split. If waiting there is a risk they will decide to make their own from open brood. I have actually tried and just let a newly mated queen walk in through the entrance on a split just made up from different hives. She made it. Just make sure there isn't a lot of old field bees there... I'm regularly making splits after the honey flow when it's most difficult to introduce queens. With this method I get more than 95% acceptance introducing mated queens. If using cells I would not wait at all with introduction. I have not experienced bees tearing down a cell when queen less, and doubt a nuc will ever do it. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden pogust@gmail.com http://beeman.se SKYPE:beemansweden -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 06:48:02 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Cold Weather Connecticut Bees Comments: To: "James W. Hock" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James, It really just sounds to me like your bees are better acclimated to CT weather because of your aggressive open breeding. The other beekeepers in your area probably still have their purchased queens or first generation daughters. I say stick with your program, because it sounds like you are headed in the right direction. Are you running on a small cell program too? -- Scot McPherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:51:02 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921030C1403@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron As it is an American term, I would have expected it was widely known on this list, but it is also known as the 'Hopkins method' and sometimes as Hopkins/Case, to sum up... In it's simplest form it is taking a frame with eggs or young grubs and laying flat over the top bars of the brood box, usually using a simple wooden eke to accommodate the height of the laid down frame. There are other variations whereby portions of comb are cut from frames and installed over a plywood sheet or modified coverboard (inner cover) that has holes bored in it. And there are versions that use frames that contain swivelling slats that can be arranged in both horizontal or vertical orientation (vertical for egg laying) then swivelled horizontal for cells to be raised. These methods give the bees the choice of which larvae are used, so in some circumstances you may get rapid supersedure of the queens that are generated this way. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 06:43:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: EU to Ban Brazilian Honey Over Lack of Residue Controls MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Brazil Targets to Avoid EU Ban on Honey Imports Correio do Brasil, 3/15/2006 Brazilian Agriculture Ministry announced on March 14, 2006 its plans to contact the European Union (EU) with the aim to avoid ban on Brazilian honey scheduled to enter in force on March 17, 2006... For more information, see Apitherapy News: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 09:37:12 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Fischer Alchemy Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners One thing that has not been mentioned in this thread is drone density. You need a LOT of drones flying around to be able to get those hand-crafted queens mated decently. This means having dedicated drone-rearing colonies. The somewhat new drone-sized foundation makes this easier than it used to be. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 10:18:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard A Cartwright Subject: "Apistan" honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Hello All, After harvesting honey last Fall, and acknowledging that I had a bad case of varroa (and associated DWV), I treated my hives with Apistan (fluvalinate) as per the directions. Over the Winter I lost 3 of my 4 hives. Now I have quite a bit of uneaten honey in the dead hives that has been exposed to Apistan strips (although strips were hung in brood boxes). I don't plan on using any of this honey for human consumption. If I leave them in the hives this Spring for the bees to use, I'm afraid that they will redistribute it up into the honey supers. Any ideas on what can be done with these frames of potentially contaminated honey? Does anyone know how long fluvalinate persists in a hive? Would hanging the frames in direct sunlight for a day or so allow for sufficient photodegradation to make the honey safe for consumption? Dick Cartwright Long Island, New York -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 08:38:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Looking for Small Hive Beetle Infested Hives to Test New Sensor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Good Morning Bee-L: We're looking for colonies infested with SHB that we can use to test a new sensor that we are developing. We'd like to find a study or someone with several hives with differing levels of beetle infestation. Fortunately for our beekeepers, Small Hive Beetle has yet to become a problem in Montana, so we know we will have to travel south to find it. Our sensor works from the outside of a hive, although for testing, we would need to drill a 1/8 or 1/4 inch hole into the front or back of a hive body (positioned so we can insert a probe between the frames without opening the hive), in the area of the brood nest, and/or in a honey super. Doubt that we're going to find many honey supers on hives at this time of year. Our spring break is the last week of March. We've got students eager to travel to sample hives. If you have beetle infested hives, or know of a study or someone who has, please contact us directly at: beeresearch@aol.com or beealert@beealert.blackfoot.net. Phone: 406-541-3160 (Bee Alert Tech, Inc.) Cell: 406-544-9007. Thanks Jerry J.J. Bromenshenk, CEO Bee Alert Technology, Inc. 1620 Rodgers St, Suite 1 Missoula, MT 59802 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 08:16:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: NAIS encompasses bees too In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all: http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/index.shtml http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/index.shtml This is a post from a very enlightening discussion now going on the organicbeekeepers discussion group list that I think you here should be paying attention to the past few days. Yes, big brother is watching more and more, many are starting to feel and say.... Would be interesting to see your comments. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ --------------- List, This is very interesting! I've been studying the NAIS situation for some time and belong to a discussion group on the subject. The bottom line problem is that this is a USDA policy and will soon be implemented. It was set up very quietly in 2002 I seem to recall, with practical implementation scheduled for 2006. Bottom line is that it is USDA policy now and even Congress does not have a say. That being said, however, Congress does have control over funding of individual programs, so that if enough people pressure their congressmen they could delay, cut or completely eliminate funding for the NAIS program. Effectively they would kill it! This further tentacle of the "Big Brother" Octopus was ostensibly to be able to track and control meat production for export and domestic commercial use. It was initiated by the Mad Cow eruption of 2000 -2002. While it may have been for large commercial operations, people in backyard production for their own consumption have also been caught in the net. It is essentially, a system of control over production which the big commercial house are in favor of because it has the potential to limit private production thereby increasing the sales of the commercial houses. People who are small stock holders of ANY domestic animal would be required to comply. The backyard chicken flock (no matter the size), the small scale rabbitry, the lone milk goat would not be exempt. Eventually the family dog and cat would also be in the loop. As initially posted here they are trying to figure out ways to attach small backyard apiaries as well. This WILL be compulsory for all and be enforced by making YOUR vet agents in reporting any animals they treat who do not have the RFID. Rather scary, no? Anyway that is pretty much the long and skinny on this situation, so it behooves everyone to contact their congressmen to be sure the program is starved of funding. Richard of Danbury __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 16:24:00 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners In-Reply-To: <44180DB6.7000601@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Jim brings in the need for drones... This is one of my hobby horses, not only do we require plenty of drones, they have to be fully fit and fertile. It is all to common for queens to be raised on the assumption that there will be enough males around to do the job, but if you raise queens, you also need to raise drones. > This means having dedicated drone-rearing colonies. The somewhat > new drone-sized foundation makes this easier than it used to be. In one sense it does make things easier, but take a look at how nature does the job... When a colony feels the need for drones it will draw patches of such cells (usually about the area of a human palm) and these patches will be placed in the nest structure in such a way as they come into play at the right time during nest expansion. Rather than use full sheets of drone foundation, splice in artificial 'patches' using a cookie cutter formed from a fruit can or put triangular pieces of drone foundation in the upper corners of brood frames. In raising drones you also need to be aware of previous treatment dates for the colonies, as many anti varroa compounds render the drones less fertile than you might think. This gets embarrassingly obvious when you are trying to demonstrate II and all the drones come up dry ! Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:58:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: "Apistan" honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline The active ingredient in Apistan is fluvalinate. For purposes of Apistan the fluvalinate was formulated to be hydrophobic, meaning it was designed s= o it would not be absorbed into a liquid. Hundreds, if not thousands, of tests have failed to detect any harmful levels in honey. Don't worry about it. It is locked up in the beeswax! -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:22:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Jo=E3o_Campos?= Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Drone rearing is often recommended in the literature, but, according to some authors, it is, at best, controversial. Due to the potential inbreeding problems, like male diploidy, the honey bee developed mechanisms to avoid matings between relatives, or to lower the probability of such. I didn't read the article, but an example can be seen here: , which contains an interesting abstract of a paper from Koeniger et al. about this issue. A little quotation: [When offered two DCAs] "Queens preferred the more distant DCA, whereas drones preferred the nearest DCA. The choice of mating site (DCA) between queens and drones were significantly different. Thus sex specific differences in choice of mating site contribute to avoidance of incest in Apis mellifera." So, unless you rear queens in an isolated area, maybe your efforts to saturate the local area with "good" drones will be of no real use after all. Or does anybody have an evidence to the contrary? Best Regards, João Campos -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 19:50:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: DARPA looking into insect warfare. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Interesting article on DARPA's plans for implanting controls into various insect: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4808342.stm It should have mentioned Jerry B's bees, too. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 22:28:17 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...maybe your efforts to saturate the local area with "good" drones will be of no real use after all. Your good drones will be of use to virgins from hives a few miles away. :) I read that it's good to surround one's mating yard with unrelated drone colonies located a few miles away in different directions. This is supposed result in congregations of drones not related to one's own. Ideally, the virgins and the drones should be of different lineages. This is not very practical in suburbia and the gain may be marginal. I think if you are raising only a dozen queens they will find ample unrelated drones in most of the US. [Naturally, this is undesirable in the Africanized areas...] However, it will serve well any large queen producer to engage in unrelated drone rearing. 3 years ago all my hives had fairly dark NWC queens and bees. With each supercedure and my raising queens, the resulting bees would get more Italian looking. I concluded that my virgins mated, or preferred to mate, with males from surrounding apiaries or feral colonies which were probably of lighter color. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 23:19:40 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Links page MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have just finished repairing old links and adding new links to our = Links page - now perhaps one of the largest in the world with 545 = working links (as at 23.15 GMT today!). www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/Links.htm Enough material to keep most of us occupied for years. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 19:46:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners In-Reply-To: <44180DB6.7000601@lineone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-BF35894 > it is taking a frame with eggs or young grubs and laying flat over the > top bars of the brood box, usually using a simple wooden eke to > accommodate the height of the laid down frame. I know a beekeeper in New York that raises cells this way. Pres of the Champlain Valley Beekeepers. Claims to have invented the method. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/279 - Release Date: 3/10/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 19:08:07 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: EU to Ban Brazilian Honey Over Lack of Residue Controls In-Reply-To: <031301c64161$b68a7c00$657d89d5@predrag> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Charlie Interesting this information on EU banning of biological residues in the products exported. So how many other countries are also exporting biological residues in their hive products, not to mention large scale packing here in the USA? Just shows to me we took the right stand with zero treatments for our organicbeekeepers group. Never know when things will come back to bite you. Will be interesting to see how the testing goes. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 21:46:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: NAIS encompasses bees too MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, National animal ID is nothing new to most people involved with livestock. I have been installing the microchips for several years in my exotic livestock. I had one installed by a vet but quickly found they were easy to install and could be bought for one fifth what vets charge. Right now the chips run around $10. (over fifty dollars installed by local vet) The cost needs to be in the 10-25 cent range before their use will be widespread in my opinion. The reader runs around $200 U.S.. I never bought a reader. If the vet which checks the animal at the state fair says he can't find the chip (which has never happened yet) I would simple place a new chip. Takes me about thirty seconds now. The fight in Missouri right now is over the area of placement. The vets want a hard to place area. (left front leg)! Livestock owners want an easy to place microchip area!(loose skin behind left ear) Never has use in beekeeping ever came up and I have had many discussions on NAIS with the powers that be over the years. We fought NAIS for years. First place they started was entry into state fairs and in registered animals. Next will be entire herds. Ear tags & tatoos will still comply with NAIS. Cost has been my only reason for fighting the process. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 20:28:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners:Drones In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jo�o Campos wrote:A little quotation: [When offered two DCAs] "Queens preferred the more distant DCA, whereas drones preferred the nearest DCA. The choice of mating site (DCA) between queens and drones were significantly different. Thus sex specific differences in choice of mating site contribute to avoidance of incest in Apis mellifera." I have read somewhere that having the drone rearing colonies placed a mile distant to the queen rearing yard at all four points of the compass was recommended. That would seem to fulfill the above mentioned natural constraints on inbreeding. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 21:21:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: NAIS encompasses bees too In-Reply-To: <000801c648ac$3769e760$2abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob, Never has use in beekeeping ever came up and I have had many discussions on NAIS with the powers that be over the years. Reply: If you could plant a chip or chips for tracking hives, where would you place one? To super/box embedded in frame of drawn comb on bee for tracking back to hive Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 21:32:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Cold Weather Connecticut Bees In-Reply-To: <001501c646b0$0c7fd350$6d9de444@D3Q8NS51> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "James W. Hock" wrote:The bees are darker. Late last fall, I found them foraging my syrup jugs on my deck in a driving rain. On several occasions, I've seen them foraging at 38 Degrees. On a couple of occasions I found them out and on my deck at 28 degrees. Does anyone have any idea what breed/species/race my queens have been mating with? Just a wag, but the colonists brought over the dark German bee with them. It wasn't until the 1800's, I think, that the Italians were brought over. It may be that you still have the dark German bee in feral colonies around the area with whom your queens have been mating. The German bee was acclimated to the cold northern European winters. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 13:05:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: "Apistan" honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you have a zero tolerance for fluvalinate in honey disregard this response. Samples of honey collected by the New York State Dept. of Ag and MKts over the last 5 years have shown levels of fluvalinate present at levels greatly lower than those considered "acceptible" by the USDA. The same is true for chumophaus. Therefore I would install nucs in the equipment that you have and go on from here. With your present experience you may want to try beekeeping withoout chemical treatment, period. Make your splits or buy nucs with varroa "resistant" queens. Save your chemical treatment money and buy queens to put into the splits that you make to replace your "winter" loss. I put winter in quotes because perhaps, like mine, your bees were already dying before winter. And you just didn't know it until now. Keep on beekeeping, Mark Berninghausen DWV? What's that? DW Virus? Richard A Cartwright wrote: Hello All, After harvesting honey last Fall, and acknowledging that I had a bad case of varroa (and associated DWV), I treated my hives with Apistan (fluvalinate) as per the directions. Over the Winter I lost 3 of my 4 hives. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 07:06:54 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: NAIS encompasses bees too MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is a post from a very enlightening discussion now > going on the organicbeekeepers discussion group list that I > think you here should be paying attention to the past few > days. No problem for me. We have a compulsory NLIS (National Livestock identification Scheme) for cattle here in Australia. No problem for me. I don't see it as big brother, doomsday etc. It has been brought about by BSE, FMD etc. and being able trace. Doesn't stop me as a very small cattle producer selling my stock but it does give me extra work. You want to sell your product, then you have to do what the customer wants. Pity we didn't have something like this for bees where we could easily trace those who have AFB and light up everyone they come in contact with. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 21:16:41 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Riley, transponders and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All Just thought that those of you following the radar tracking debate might = like to look at this paper by Riley and his colleagues (see below). The paper is in the Proceedings of the Royal Society Series B, one of = the most prestigious biology journals in the UK. Written before the = recently debated Nature paper, it investigated the flight of bees = captured at feeders, displaced, and released with transponders attached. = For anyone wondering about the behaviour of bees following such = treatment, it is quite revealing. The person releasing the bees said = that the released bees initially flew in circles or landed, but the = radar tracks show that they settled into predictable straight-line = flights in the direction the hive would have been if they hadn=92t been = displaced. Those flights ignored artificial landmarks, going over them = even though their normal route home didn=92t have them. Near the end of = their flights, some bees did take notice of a fairly subtle linear = feature, a line at the boundary of short and higher grass, and used this = to return homewards. The returning flights, as with the flights of new = recruits in the Nature study we were discussing previously, continued = straight for the feeder to hive distance, then turned into more erratic = searching flights. None of this comments directly on the dance language (thank goodness, I = hear you cry!) but it shows how relatively unaffected the bees are by = the transponders, and how determined they are to fly on automatic pilot = back to where they think the hive should be. Some of you might also = like the detail of the bees=92 correction for wind speed and direction. Bye for now Gavin. Sorry - I tried a 'tinyurl' link straight to the PDF, but it didn't = appear to work. So go here: http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/ and pick 'Proceedings of the Royal Society B' then at 'Quick search' enter 'Riley'. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 16:14:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Milt_Lathan?= Subject: Wintering due to the Queen? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I went into the winter with 5 hives, I now have only two. However, one hive (15 miles south of Seattle, WA) is Extremely strong for March in the northwest. I am crediting the queen for this excellent wintering ability - Does that makes sense? The queen in question was left behind after a June swarm. What I am thinking is that This would be a good queen & hive to rebuild from rather than buying packages again. These are (were?) Carnies so there will definitely be swarm cells soon. I haven't tried intentionally breeding a queen for many years because I figured there wasn't enough drone stock around my hives. OH BTW - the two surviving hives were 'fed' a medium super of crystallized honey from 2004. Two others got sugar syrup and the last Non-survivor starved with plenty of stores left over, I suspect mite 'shrinkage'. tfl -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 07:37:33 -0500 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Ontario Beekeepers' Association(OBA) Spring 2006 Meetings April 5,6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Ontario Beekeepers' Association (OBA) will hold its annual spring meeting Wed.April 5. The day begins with a tour of Clovermead Apiaries, www.clovermead.com in Aylmer Ontario. The meeting then adjourns to the Four Points Sheraton Hotel London. An excellent programme is scheduled. Guest speaker is Dr. Miguel Arechavaleta, research entomologist, INIFAP Mexico. On Thursday the 6th of April the Ontario Bee Breeders Association meets at the Four Points Sheraton for London for its annual meeting. Further information on both meetings is available from Virginia Steckle, OBA Business Administrator info@ontariobee.com website www.ontariobee.com All are welcome. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 06:53:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: NAIS encompasses bees too MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply: If you could plant a chip or chips for tracking hives, where would you place one? Most likely the box or the pallet. I do stamp frames ( some are branded) to protect from theft as well as brand boxes,lids and pallets. Jerry B. is the person to respond but I have heard many of his presentations. What he uses is not a microchip but a ID similar to what scanners in stores use. Small and can be used in most situations. I expect one day they will be in boxes and perhaps frames. Brands work best for us as equipment gets mixed when several beekeepers do pollination in the same orchard and fairly easy to see (except at night). Painting all hives of yours a color different than white helps the most. Pastel colors of green & blue are common. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:19:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: NAIS encompasses bees too In-Reply-To: <20060315161620.56049.qmail@web51615.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/index.shtml I read it and cannot see much of anything described in your post. Truth is, RFID tags might be voluntarily used by commercial beekeepers for a variety of reasons, all beneficial for the beekeeper. Many large companies are using the tags to track inventory. A beekeeper would know everything about the colony with the tags and a reader. The tags were mandated for cows, because of mad cow disease (which is still around. A case was found in Florida recently). As I recall, it was Congress that was behind that mandate. As an aside, I would think the organic movement would be lauding the USDA and want for it to be mandatory for beekeepers in order to separate organic from non-organic hives and maintain the purity of the movement. Why the desire to fight it and mask the colony's origin? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:23:08 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Cold Weather Connecticut Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>On several occasions...foraging at 38 Degrees. On a couple of occasions... on my deck at 28 degrees. ...any idea what ...race ...? Bees often feel compelled to display behavior that's not in line with their reputation when they are under pressure. I've seen Italians forage when the NWCs stayed put. Checking the Italian hives revealed low stores... They felt compelled to forage. This spring I noticed the Italians raising brood 1 week ahead of the Carniolan hive... I don't have pure-bred Italians or Carniolans, so there can be reversals of displayed characteristics. It has been an unusually warm winter possibly influencing bees' behavior (Carniolans are reputed to brood only on nectar flows). I have also seen bees flying in temps in the 30's on very sunny days. A shaded thermometer may show a temp in the 30's but the sun creates much warmer spots, especially in sheltered locations, where (I believe) bees take advantage of thermal chimneys. This is risky and typically avoided by the better bees since, if a bee runs into a shaded spot or cold wind picks up, she'll drop to the ground and may not be able to warm up enough to fly back to the hive. I have collected hypothermic bees from the ground and warmed them indooors. Depending on how long they had been cold, a lot of them came back to life and I'd returned to a hive. Flying in very cold weather is risky and undesirable since very, very few plants produce nectar in the cold. Leaving open feeders out, induces this risky flying. In the late winter, brood rearing is underway and, if the stores are low, the bees will attempt to forage in cold weather sometimes. A lot of adult bees can perish. Waldemar PS. My best/strongest hives with good stores have always stayed put -aside from brief cleansing flights in front of the hive - until good weather. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:52:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: "Apistan" honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This message was originally submitted by rod.clayton@GMAIL.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. > -----Original Message----- > From: Rod Clayton [mailto:rod.clayton@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:34 AM > To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > Subject: Re: [BEE-L] "Apistan" honey > > > I went to the Maryland State Beekeepers Assn meeting this > February. Dr. Nancy Ostiguy from PSU spoke about what they > had found regarding mite levels and virus levels in the hive. > > They determined that, at a critical point, killing the varroa > did not stop the virus levels from rising. They also found > that transferring the honey from such a hive that died from > high virus levels would cause similarly high virus levels in > the hive that received it. They found that the viruses > infected all the hive products except the wax. > > So if you feed that honey to another hive, you may kill that hive too. > > Rod Clayton > Columbia, MD -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:27:48 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Fischer Alchemy Subject: Re: NAIS encompasses bees too I find no indication to support the claim that bees are, or ever will be regulated under NAIS. If one reads the thread cited, which starts here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/message/23757 one finds nothing except idle speculation about how beekeepers MIGHT fall under this program. One also quickly comes across this message: > From: "Lew Best" > Date: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:34 am > Subject: RE: [Organicbeekeepers] NAIS > > Here's where the confusion came in I think; did > a Google search for usda-aphis & came up with this. > Aphis = Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) It appears that he typed "aphis" rather than "apis". :) I think everyone can safely put away the tinfoil hats for now. (As an aside, tinfoil hats may not be as effective a strategy as previously thought. See http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/ ) So, while bees do not appear to be envisioned as needing to be "tracked" under NAIS, Honey-handling operations of a certain size certainly do have to comply with the FDA's "Registration of Food Facilities", which is old news by now. http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~acrobat/fsbtreg.pdf http://bee-quick.com/reprints/bioterrorism.pdf Funny story, when I moved to VA, I bought a farm which had been a diary operation since the 1920s. The locals were curious, given the sudden lack of cows wandering about. When I was asked "what are you going to do with the place?" while having breakfast with a group of farmers, I said "keep bees". The general response was "but that's not FARMING". I said "Its harder work than you might think". When smiles and guffaws resulted, I challenged "OK, then can I count on all of your to lend me a hand during ear-tagging every spring?" Dead silence resulted for nearly a full minute. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:30:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: DARPA looking into insect warfare. In-Reply-To: <20060315.115102.23743.494495@webmail38.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:50 PM 3/15/2006, you wrote: >Waldemar said: >Interesting article on DARPA's plans for implanting controls into various >insect: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4808342.stm > >It should have mentioned Jerry B's bees, too. Actually, a UPI reporter, not DARPA, did mention our bees, proclaimed them a failure -- didn't check his facts, didn't talk to me, didn't talk to DARPA, read the DARPAA BAA and concluded that if DARPA wants to 'drive' insects, previous work with insects must have failed. This reporter didn't know that DARPA had worked with lots of other insects, and that food and mating proved to be distractions for some. For bees, food is the driving variable, and worker bees don't mate. Also, the previously funded WASP HOUND group recently had lots of coverage (Dec, 2005 -- USA Today, ABC news, etc.) about their success with the newest generation of work conducted by DARPA under the earlier program. Since their wasps are in a cage, food distractions and mating aren't a problem to them, either. For some reason, the reporter couldn't find recent publications by either the bee or wasp group, but did manage to find 5 year old reports, which he used in drawing his conclusions. So much for fact checking. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:45:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: NAIS encompasses bees too In-Reply-To: <20060316052121.71546.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Bob and Dee: >If you could plant a chip or chips for tracking hives, >where would you place one? > >To super/box >embedded in frame of drawn comb >on bee for tracking back to hive A chip for a bee that could remain on the bee for its life has yet to be produced -- we came close, but not small enough. The antenna is the barrier -- we have nanoblock transmitters -- size of pencil point dot. Very small antennas have dispersal/range problems. For the box, frame -- we can provide the chips immediately -- @ 35c/each, in rolls of 500 or more. Price depends on size of order. These chips are superior to the $10 chips that Bob mentions -- farther ranger (5-20 ft read, versus inches), and the information on the chip can be locked OR reprogrammed using a security, encrypted password reader. These chips can go in the box OR frame, can be buried in the wood or plastic -- so they are hidden. For $40-50, we provide a battery-powered, 7 yr life, transmitting chip that we recommend for use on pallets. With a battery swap (30 cents), you should get as much as 10 yrs from the chip, that drops cost to about $1/hive. These chips have movement sensors in them. We're just field testing a sentry system that can sit in a yard, and 'watch' hives on pallets that have these transmitter chips. When the pallet/hive moves, the chip speeds up its beep rate. That activates a cell phone, and calls you or send a message to a computer. Yesterday, we initiated and received a text message/alarm in 7 seconds. That gives you a bit of time to have someone intersect the truck being loaded with your bees. Jerry P.S. The less expensive tags can provide a chain-of-custody record of your honey, whether for organic honey, or protection against adulterated honey (accidental, intentionallly poisoned). The talk Heather Clay from Canada gave at AHPA indicated that a contaminated LOT of honey found in Canada could result in orders to destroy the affect Lot, and the preceeding and succeeding lot. If the LOT you have is a warehouse full of honey from a season -- that's going to hurt. >Respectfully submitted, > >Dee A. Lusby >Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper >Moyza, Arizona >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:55:12 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: "Apistan" honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a basic question: if fluvenite is wax solubeale, and fluvenite levels in honey have been found acceptable..., then why folks report problems with queens on contaminated wax? After all, queens are not made out of wax. :) Are the queens absorbing fluvenite through feed or air? Perhaps tolerance for fluvenite in honey is set too high - I don't consider queens more delicate than humans. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 11:24:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: "Apistan" honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Rod & All, Dr. Ostiguy said the same thing at our Missouri/Kansas meeting. I did not question her on her findings at the meeting but not what we have seen dealing with large numbers of PMS deadouts and talks with researchers in the U.K. (Ball). The bottom line has been so far that if you control the varroa load the virus issues are not a problem. You control the varroa and comb from deadouts with PMS are not a problem. Not to disrespect what Dr. Ostiguy is saying but what you observe in a microscope/ small group of hives in the lab setting *can* vary considerably from what the commercial beekeepers see in the field. > They determined that, at a critical point, killing the varroa > did not stop the virus levels from rising. I am really glad our research proved the above as a non issue. We worried the above *would* be true. Dr. Ostiguy might indeed find in her test hives some rise in virus levels ( after varroa treatrment) but the bottom line from Brenda Ball and our research is that if you can *control* the varroa levels virus issues are minor in commercial beekeeping. I also do not agree with Dr. Ostiguys views on "organic Honey" but another issue. I did voice my opinions at the meeting on the subject. We are in a serious fight with packers over label violations on the use of the words "local" "raw honey" " country of origin" & "blended". We have got proof the packers are cheating but unable to stop the label abuse. Next will be misuse of the "organic honey" label by packers. In my opinion wide spread misuse will be done by packers and organic beekeepers will not be able to stop the misuse. Back to virus: They also found > that transferring the honey from such a hive that died from > high virus levels would cause similarly high virus levels in > the hive that received it. As long as the virus does not cause problems who really cares? The U.K. has volumes on the subject. Why waste precious research dollars on research already available? > So if you feed that honey to another hive, you may kill that hive too. I don't think that's *exactly* what she said Rod. Possibly if the hive has a very high varroa load the virus (PMS) will rise but not what we saw when we put new packages on 1200 boxes of PMS deadout comb. The real test of an hypothesis is in the field with large numbers of hives and not a few hives in a lab setting. How many times have the labs gave us a product/ hypothesis which worked in the lab to only see the product/ hypothesis fail in the field? What Dr. Ostiguy *seems* to be saying is send research dollars so we can research an unstoppable problem????? In my mind I believe if you control the varroa the virus problems will go away. Virus can be found in about every hive. A non issue until varroa loads rise to high levels. Researchers need to be working on ways to improve the bees immune system (nutrition?)so the bees can resist virus infection while still having a high varroa load in the hive. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:42:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: "Apistan" honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline The 'problem' with queens because of the use of Fluvalinate (and Coumaphous= ) is really the 'problem' with drone fertility. Queen cells are largely made of new wax, so the contaminates are not present. However, drone cells primarily consist of old wax, which has levels of contaminates that are almost unbelieveably high. I have heard of viable sperm counts that are as low as 50% of similar counts 20 years ago. The queen doesn't know that the 'juice' she is receiving is lacking i= n sperm or that such sperm is not as viable as it should be. However, this quickly shows up in an irregular brood pattern and drone layers. For those so inclined, several papers have been published on the subject. This is why some beekeepers have been buying their queens from Hawaii, wher= e they have never had mites so they have never used chemicals. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:48:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Digitization of ABJ Volume 1-20 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ever read the American Bee Journal? "The oldest English language beekeeping publication in the world established in 1861 by Samuel Wagner which has been published continuously since that time except for a brief period during the Civil War" http://www.dadant.com/ journal/history.html Now the first 20 Volumes 1861-1880 of ABJ has the distinction of becoming the next target for digitization at the EF Phillips Beekeeping on-line collection "The Hive & The Honeybee" maintained by Cornell University. http://bees.library.cornell.edu/ Two recent gifts, one from the Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association (SABA) and another from the Finger Lakes Beekeepers Club (FLBC) amounting to a total of $400 along with a matching contribution of $50 by Mann library will cover digitization costs for the first three volumes. We only need additional contributions of $2,550 more to get all 20 volumes (1861 through 1880) of original American Bee Journal digitized. This digitized beekeeping library is now the largest digital on-line collection thanks to the foresight of EF Phillips and the generous contributions by beekeepers! Can you imagine having access to 30 early America beekeeping volumes from your home computer? And if successful you will soon be able to read the first 20 volumes of American Bee Culture. Perhaps you, your Association or Sate beekeeping organization would like to help by contributing to have a volume placed up on the WWW. By doing the entire 20 volumes at once the estimated cost for digitizing all 20 would be $150/volume. The cost goes up if we choose to do it in smaller, multiple groupings. So, If this sound interesting & you would like to help with this or need more information to take to other beekeepers, either contact me or look at The Hive & The Honeybee site at, http://bees.library.cornell.edu/ Mike Griggs President Finger Lakes Beekeepers mhg3@cornell.edu -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 13:58:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Lehr, Carl" Subject: Varroa, Viruses and Last Year's Honey (was RE: [BEE-L] "Apistan" honey) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello to the group, Rod said: > So if you feed that honey to another hive, you may kill that hive too.> Bob said: >I don't think that's *exactly* what she said Rod.> I also attended the same MSBA meeting at the Howard County Fairgrounds and must agree with Bob on the final point. Even Dewey Caron questioned a couple of her "observations" after her presentation. While she DID state that feeding last years honey (from dead outs) to this years colonies was not recommended, she could not assert that viruses alone could/would kill a colony. When pressed by Dewey and another gentleman from the Bee Lab in Beltsville (I think), she clarified that without varroa infestation, that the bees had developed an uncanny ability to "deal" with most of the viruses on their own. Only when the varroa-ridden colonies were "infected" with the viruses; did they succumb to a combination of both "attacks". However, their research was clearly focused on the viruses, NOT varroa. Again, (to parrot Bob), "control the varroa; and the virus problems will go away". Or at the very least, not negatively impact the bees. Dave Lehr Carroll County, Maryland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 19:22:53 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: "Apistan" honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>The 'problem' with queens because of the use of Fluvalinate (and Coumaphous)is really the 'problem' with drone fertility. I've heard contaminated wax also leads to more frequent queen supercedures. Either way, if the chemical is just wax-soluable, by what mechanism does it affect drones [and queens]? It needs to come out of the wax and enter the insect. Also, drones are typically raised months after Apistan treatment while resident queens are present during the treatment and afterwards. Drone infertility is a good indicator of a problem it seems. I've never used Apistan but somehow don't see how queens are more immune than drones... Folks have written that replacing the entire wax in their hives has resulted in much improved health of the bee population. Perhaps Apistan levels in contaminated wax are not fatal to bees (and humans...) but chronic ailments seem a real risk. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:46:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ted_Hancock?= Subject: Re: NAIS encompasses bees too Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In Canada the beekeeping industry is leading the push for higher honey house standards. The goal is to improve the quality and traceability of honey. This can then be used as a marketing tool. But it is also hoped it can be used as a trade barrier. In other words you won't be able to sell honey in Canada unless you have a stainless steel toilet in your honey house and reams of records on your beekeeping operation like the rest of us. Sounds like other countries are also following this path. I don't think we can fault governments for wanting to improve food quality and saftey. Many believe the food now on store shelves may be responsible for skyrocketing cancer rates. So consumers want government oversight of our food. However I agree with Richard of Danbury as quoted by Dee Lusby that these requlations should not apply to someone with twenty hives selling honey out their back door. That is exactly what has happened to all livestock producers in Canada. You can no longer legally butcher an animal in your back yard and sell the meat to your neighbour. And our provincial government is warning us that they see the day coming when this will be the case with honey as well. The other down side to higher standards is that it makes it more expensive to get started in commercial beekeeping. This in turn will tend to push smaller operations out of business. I heard a radio program several years ago that discussed trends in agriculture. The program suggested that many North American politicians find rural areas a nuisance. Farmers are always looking for financial help and demanding services. The politicians see a solution in industrial agriculture or factory farms. With this scenario you have very few people living in rural areas (so fewer services needed) and the factory farms actually make a profit so can be taxed. So some governments are actually lowering environmental standards and centralizing land use planning in an attempt to encourage factory farms. But once factory farms are established they don't want government inspectors coming around. Fortunately they are so big they have the political clout to get what they want. I support the move towards all honey houses being government inspected. But I see the possible scenario in beekeeping of the demand for higher standards leading to government inspectors of honey houses, leading to larger operations who then use their political clout to get rid of the government inspectors. I'm not saying this will happen. I'm just throwing it out there for discussion. Something else that I feel will affect the future of North American beekeeping is what happens with the Canada/U.S. border. If the border becomes open to the movement of hives back and forth, large migratory beekeepers north and south of the border will over-winter in the southern U.S.. This will then allow them to do some spring pollination before heading north for a honey crop. Stationary beekeepers will get none of the benefits but all the pests and diseases trucked around the country. If this style of beekeeping becomes the norm it will have an effect on rural areas because beekeepers will no longer have roots in any one community. And I think rural areas need local, permanent residents to maintain a healthy society. It could also be argued that migratory beekeeping uses more fossil fuels and is harder on the environment than stay at home, smaller operations. My point in this little tirade is that bigger isn't always better. Ted P.S. BTW did you know that Canada is bigger than the U.S.? I guess sometimes size really does matter. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:18:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: "Apistan" honey In-Reply-To: <003a01c6491e$89f948a0$01bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Would Dr. Ostiguy be saying, in effect, that but for the presecence of a virus Apistan and Checkmite Plus would be effective? Mark Berninghausen --------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 17:17:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: NAIS encompasses bees too In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Hancock wrote: > Many believe the food now on store shelves may be responsible > for skyrocketing cancer rates. What skyrocketing cancer rates? This is just an alarmist statement. The fact that we live longer and have better detection equipment only means you are more likely to have cancer in your lifetime. The problem with our current food supply is that it is so varied and safe, so we live longer because of it, not in spite of it. When I was sailing the seven seas in the 60's there were still countries we could not buy produce from because they were still using night soil. (Google it, but not when you are eating.) > However I agree with Richard of Danbury as quoted by Dee Lusby > that these requlations should not apply to someone with twenty hives > selling honey out their back door. That is exactly what has happened to > all livestock producers in Canada. Actually, that is the law right here in Maine for selling honey. If you sell it you are supposed to be inspected. I have not seen them come in black helicopters here, but I am sure, based on the post, that it happens elsewhere. It actually is not that much of a big deal, and the inspector looks at sanitation and the process. Personally, I appreciate the fact that honey that is sold in Maine is produced under sanitary conditions. I would hope for the same in Canada. > The other down side to higher standards is that it makes it more expensive > to get started in commercial beekeeping. This in turn will tend to push > smaller operations out of business. So lower standards for honey are acceptable for sale by smaller operations? That will certainly define the market. As far as the rest of the post, the sum and substance is found in the following statement: > I'm not saying this will happen. I'm just throwing > it out there for discussion. I would rather discuss what happened when I was abducted by UFOs. Unspeakable, what they did with the honey. Bill Truesdell (Where is my Reynolds Wrap? I see lights.) Bath, Maine > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:34:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Prevalence and Seasonal Variations Bee Viruses in bees and varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Bee_L members, The following link has an excellent study about Viruses in bees and mites. This information might shed some lights on virus mite, and bees interrelationships. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=535170 Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:28:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: NAIS encompasses bees too MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ted & All, >you won't be able to sell honey in Canada unless you have a stainless steel toilet in your honey house and reams of records on your beekeeping operation like the rest of us. In the U.S. we have to have two doors between the toilet (stainless or ceramic) and the honey processing area. In my operation to use the toilet you have to exit the area through a door with a screen and walk ten feet and then enter the restroom area through another door. We understand what you mean Ted just giving you a hard time. > And our provincial government is warning us that they see the day coming when this will be the case with honey as well. The way get around the problem is to give your neighbor the beef/honey and sit a donation jar in plain site to your farm fund. What the mead makers do! >I support the move towards all honey houses being government inspected. I agree. At least once every five years and with at least two weeks notice to the beekeeper. >It could also be argued that migratory beekeeping uses more fossil fuels and is harder on the environment than stay at home, smaller operations. Most would unlease a bashing of "stay at home" beekeepers but migratory beekeepers never do on the list. We provide a valuable service to many by providing pollination. We do the best we can to survive. > My point in this little tirade is that bigger isn't always better. The "Peter Principle" applies every person. Once you get bigger than you can take care of things start falling apart. Far better to run a smaller amount of hives successfully than a huge number of hives unsuccessfully. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 19:30:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Bobb Subject: Re: "Apistan" honey In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE09210331212C@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am concerned about the conclusion of previous postings regarding Dr. Nancy Ostiguy's comments that "transferring the honey from such a hive that died from high virus levels would cause similarly high virus levels in the hive that received it" and therefore "if you feed that honey to another hive, you may kill that hive too". I contacted Penn State University and Dr. Nancy Ostiguy clarified her comments. Below is her response. Jim Bobb President Pennsylvania State Beekeepers Assocation 2011 Sheare Road Lansdale, PA 19446 (610) 584-6778 In fall 2004 our colonies had very high levels of deformed wing virus. Over 90% of the colonies failed to over winter. When we restarted our colonies from packages in spring 2005, we used the honey and pollen from dead outs to feed our new bees. Surprisingly, we found high viral levels immediately after starting these colonies. These levels were equivalent to levels we normally observe at the end of the season in October. We don't know if the virus levels found in these colonies was related to the virus present pollen and honey feed to the bees. This spring we will be starting a study that will feed bees virus containing honey and/or pollen or pollen and/or honey without virus. The results of this study will tell us if the deformed wing virus can be transmitted via pollen and/or honey. We have observed in colonies with elevated virus levels that eliminating the mites does not result in an immediate decrease in viral levels. We don't know what happens to the virus levels several weeks later. We suspect that a colony living three or more weeks after the mites levels have been reduced will have lower virus levels because the colony will have new bees to replace those that have died or have high virus levels. Nancy Ostiguy, M.P.H., Ph.D -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 21:52:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Prevalence and Seasonal Variations Bee Viruses in bees and varroa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. wrote: > The following link has an excellent study about Viruses in bees and mites. > http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=535170 If you have not read it, do so. It is an exceptional article with no ax to grind. Of interest to me was: "The mechanisms by which viruses could be reactivated in insects are not fully understood, and predisposing factors other than mite parasitism might play a role in this phenomenon; such factors include coinfection with bacteria or protozoans (7) and the effects of chemicals released into the environment (13, 15, 16). The latter factor is suspected to play a role in triggering viral disease outbreaks in mammals (32), as well as in insects (22)." If you check the footnotes they deal with pesticides released in the area around bees, and seal deaths from immune suppressors in the environment. This tracks back to the French problem with Bayer and bee deaths from imidacloprid. Bayer said it was mites and the beekeepers said it was imidacloprid. It could have been both, but with imidacloprid playing the role of first weakening the bees so they were then susceptible to the mites and transmitted virus. Any organism, if weakened, it much more susceptible to attacks that, when in a "normal" state, they would handle easily. When you read of all the virus that exist normally in a colony and the levels at which they are found, keeping your bees healthy also means not introducing outside factors that will weaken them. That seems obvious, but not to all. I was playing with this thought. Maybe some of the chemical treatments, be they "organic" or not, could, over time, weaken the bees to the point that a lesser mite count could be as bad as a heavy load. It also answers the concern of many with contaminants in wax causing problems with the health of the colony. Even though the strength of the contaminants is low, it would still be a weakening factor. We seem to continually get back to the established, good beekeeping practice of culling old wax by replacing frames over a programmed period. God practices better beekeeping than most of us by letting wax moths cull out old combs and giving bees a fresh start. In essence, bees in nature are removed from old contaminants, so they can at least have somewhat of a head start in the disease war. I was told by several beekeepers, when I first started keeping bees, that there is no reason to rotate in new comb, and that old black, brood comb had been in their hives for tens of years. I consider that bad advice, especially in this current age of Varroa, and, actually, in any age. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 21:38:18 -0600 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: NAIS emcompasses bees too Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: I don't believe it is currently mandantory but will be at some point in the future after 2008. >From the anamalid.aphis.usda site: NAIS is currently a voluntary program. To ensure the participation requirements of NAIS not only provide the results necessary to maintain the health of the national herd but also is a program that is practical for producers and all others involved in production, USDA has adopted a phased-in approach to implementation. Although the draft strategic plan references mandatory requirements in 2008 and beyond, to date no actions have been initiated by USDA to develop regulations to require participation in NAIS. We've done a couple of pilot programs with 400 head of calves headed for the feed lots and there has been mixed results. The implant RFID's are cheap enough at $ 2.00 a head but the reader was almost $ 600.00 and one trucking firm did a reader install on some of its trucks, with very poor results, as only about 20-40% of the tags were being properly identified, so some work still needs to be done to id stock moving onto a truck or passing through a gate with a reader attached. Some of the implants apparently migrated from the left ear down into the neck and beyond as well but this thing is coming and you won't be able to sell a calf or cow without pasture of birth to processing plant verification for each and every animal. It has many safety considerations, but I am sure that money is the ultimate motivator. Tracking all live animals with large values helps Big Daddy keep an eye on money flow as well and ultimately keeps all those playing the game honest. Mad cow is ! a timely coincidence as far as I'm concerned. Yes its serious buisiness but it is being overblown by the media. You can't get mad cow without eating the brain, spinal cord or fluid and this material can be safely removed during processing the animal. Feed containing these animal byproducts is never fed by any producer to his herd knowingly and most of the animals fed for human consumption are not the ones being found as contaminated, but usually long lived dairy animals. This has been worse than the hype regarding killer bees. Small producers will simply have to cooperate with a larger operator who will implant and deliver through their i.d.'s, product to market. The same will eventually happen with honey. It is not far away. Smaller producers will have to extract at a licensed and approved FDA facility that will also filter and pack the honey for safety concerns. And that really is legitmate to a certain degree as everyones opinion as to quality standards for extracting and processing vary and I'm aware of several whose standards don't meet levels where I would consume their product. Unfortunately, these fellows can also negatively impact my market as well with one bad report or incident that the national media gets ahold of and takes our 1.6 or 1.7 lbs per person average (or whatever it is ) down to a third that level. End result is: once again you either get large enough to stay in the game or ride along with someone who is. Tim Tucker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:57:58 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060315194438.02032cd0@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Michael Speaking of a frame with eggs or young grubs and laying flat over the top bars of the brood box, Michael says... > I know a beekeeper in New York that raises cells this way. Pres of the > Champlain Valley Beekeepers. Claims to have invented the method. He might well have 'invented' the method independently of others, but to have been the first to do it would make his age around a century and a half or even more :-) Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 09:01:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: NAIS emcompasses bees too In-Reply-To: <17499008.1142566698529.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem with discussions such as this, where what is happening in one commodity market is transposed to beekeeping, is that beekeeping is just to far under the radar. We are a bit puffed up with our own importance. To transpose the problems in the cattle industry to beekeeping is a stretch. The only comparison I see is the classic friction between producer and seller (packer/processor). Beyond that, the scale of the operations as well as the impact on the market are equivalent to an elephant and an ant. In a supermarket, how much shelf space is there for honey compared to meat in all its manifestations? As I understand it, most of the push for tags was from the meat processors who wanted to get back the foreign (read Japan) market as well as Canadian imports. They used the government to push the tags and suppliers fought back. But it is hard to fight "mad cow". I have talked about Maine beekeepers and our attempt to join with larger commodity interests. We were marginal compared to all of the others. (I was the rep because I wanted to be able to use their influence to do things we wanted.) We eventually gave up, mostly because I left the board of the MSBA. (One good thing about our name, Maine State Beekeepers Association, was it matched Maine Sheep Breeders Association. So the legislature occasionally listened when MSBA was mentioned, until they found out our "sheep" flew.) Or look at the USDA organic standards for honey. Even mushroom standards have been set but honey is still languishing. Is honey actually less important than mushrooms? We are in a closed group, and when you just talk to each other, you feel that you are in a larger community than you actually are. All your prejudices, for good and bad, are reinforced until you meet reality. It would be nice to actually be noticed but that is both a blessing and a curse. If any problem come in the honey world, it will not be from government but from honey packers/processors (as it always does), and there, the packers have a larger problem because of imports, not exports as in the meat industry. They do not want to kill that goose. Hence, I doubt if there will be any concerted drive to tag honey. We are just not that important. However, raise a big enough stink about it to be noticed and people will wonder why we do not want tags. Mad cow honey? Bill Truesdell (Who has copyrighted the name "Mad Cow Honey" just in case it catches on. Great name for a woman's Rock group.) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:51:29 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joao & all Sorry for the delay in replying. > Drone rearing is often recommended in the literature, but, > according to some authors, it is, at best, controversial. Due > to the potential inbreeding problems, like male diploidy, the > honey bee developed mechanisms to avoid matings between relatives, > or to lower the probability of such. The situation is not quite as 'black and white' as this... There are several points to consider. The mating frequency of the race of bee concerned. The possibility of 'bottlenecking' in the strain concerned due to previous breeding selection and/or the use of 'quick and dirty' hard crosses by single drone II. The mating strategies that occur for the race of bee being discussed. Mating preferences of the queen influence which drones actually get to mate, the queuing that goes on in a drone comet, needs to be looked at so that we can understand how that influences which drones get to mate. In US conditions I would expect inbreeding to show up more readily than most other areas of the world, because there is a high reliance on Italian genes, so the mating frequency is low. Similarly Italian strains rely mostly on DCA mating with very little use of Apiary Vicinity Mating or minor drone assemblies. Many of the established strains have a degree of bottlenecking in their previous selection. The only thing that I can see in the bee's favour here is that the degree of racial purity is likely to be much lower than many would expect, which will help diversity. How many of you keep behavioural records and conduct assessment and testing of racial purity ? Too many times we hear statements like "if it's got yellow on it it's Italian" or "if it's black it is a Carniolan". Some people even discriminate between queens on the basis of colour... i.e. "selecting for the dark side". Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 14:59:52 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave, >>Mating preferences of the queen influence which drones actually get to mate, the queuing that goes on in a drone comet... Would you please elaborate on this very interesting topic? How does the queen select the drones she mates with? She's being chased by a swarm of drones and she does not have good eyesight (I assume here that workers' and queens' eyesight is equally poor). Her sense of smell does not work in the backwards direction. It'd be great to know more about this behavior. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 10:52:42 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Fischer Alchemy Subject: Re: Viruses and Last Year's Honey (was RE: [BEE-L] "Apistan" honey) > When pressed by Dewey and another gentleman from the > Bee Lab in Beltsville (I think), she clarified that > without varroa infestation, that the bees had developed > an uncanny ability to "deal" with most of the viruses > on their own. The current state-of-the-art work indicates that viruses have little opportunity to spread within a colony without varroa to act as a "carrier", and spread the viruses between bees. Judy Chen of the USDA Beltsville Bee Lab has done quite a bit of work showing that while small numbers of bees in colonies certainly can and do get viruses without mites, that the mites spread viruses with alarming certainty. "Molecular Evidence for Transmission of Kashmir Bee Virus in Honey Bee Colonies by Ectoparasitic Mite, Varroa Destructor" http://tinyurl.com/nfvro "Quantitative Real-Time Reverse Transcription-PCR Analysis of Deformed Wing Virus Infection in the Honeybee (Apis mellifera L.)" http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/71/1/436 The interesting thing here is that INDIVIDUAL bees and mites were checked for the viruses at issue, and that there was a clear and compelling correlation between "mites per larvae" and "odds of the virus being transmitted". The other interesting thing was that if the bee larvae was given the virus by one mite, all other mites that fed on that larvae were also given the virus. Now, if we could only stumble across a virus that was harmless to bees, but killed mites! (Hey - a boy can dream, can't he?) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 18:04:21 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Mating preferences In-Reply-To: <20060317.070032.2693.508174@webmail24.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Waldemar asks... > How does the queen select the drones she mates with? I can't give you accurate answers, but I can point to some of the ideas... If you watch the drones forming a comet downwind of a pheromone lure, they bob about, but remain in an orderly queue. The pecking order that this implies obviously has a bearing on which drones have a higher probability of mating, but we need to know what causes this pecking order. When drones are pursuing a queen in AVM the bobbing about is less than with the lure, but this may be a factor of the speed of flight 'cos it happens very quickly indeed 'for real' rather than using a lure. There is some suggestion from past work using queens tethered by a silk thread that a queen can extend her sting and burst a drone that is getting pumped up ready for action, this stems from work done in Lincolnshire in the late 1960s and early 70s (I think by Bernard Mobus). I was not present at any of those trials, but I remember them being widely and avidly discussed at the time. Another factor that could have a bearing, would be the approach and grip adopted by the drone, if the queen objected to such a grip or it was inapropriate from a racial morphometric 'fit' point of view, then she may be able to avoid the encounter. Maybe the scent drifting backwards from a flying queen has some effect in ordering the queue of drones. All of this is conjecture, what is really required is more structured experimental work on the possibilities. Universities are likely to say "give us the money and we'll do the work" as there is no financial spin off from it and it is not interesting enough for them to spend their own money :-) Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 14:56:06 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Mating preferences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar asks... > How does the queen select the drones she mates with? Dave Cushman replies... > if the queen objected to such a grip or it was inapropriate from a racial morphometric 'fit' point of view, then she may be able to avoid the encounter. So, if I have Russian Queens flying about to be mated, and along with Russian drones in that comet there appear some "others", has it been established that the "others will affect the "fit" or is it Russian drones and only Russians ? and who has done work on this? Walter Zimmermann Little Wolf Apiaries Ontario -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:32:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Jeff_Peck?= Subject: Re: "Apistan" honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The thought of a virus living in the comb occured to me also. I lost my first hive (Italians) to high mite levels and DWV. I reused this comb the following year for a new package (Minnesota Hygenics) and it died also. Same symptoms. My other 2 packages hived the same day came through this winter very well. This suspect comb is going to be fertilizer -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 17:56:37 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Queen rearing methods for beginners Comments: To: Michael Palmer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>>I know a beekeeper in New York that raises cells this way. Pres of the Champlain Valley Beekeepers. Claims to have invented the method.<<< Although this fellow may have developed it on his own, this is not a new innovation. I read about growing queen cells this way. When I get home from work, i'll look it up. The 'article' I read included scoring the comb 2 cells, while leaving one, do this in all 3 directions, and your queen cells won't grow together. -- Scot McPherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 11:04:47 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Mating preferences In-Reply-To: <288.796741f.314c6e56@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Walter > and who has done work on this? Please do not forget that my original post stressed 'ideas' and 'conjecture'. I wish more work would be done, it would be helpful if what was actually relevant to the matter was properly collated and referenced into a bibliography, but I don't know of any work ongoing at the minute. > So, if I have Russian Queens flying about to be mated, and along > with Russian drones in that comet there appear some "others", has > it been established that the "others will affect the "fit" or is > it Russian drones and only Russians It is possible that Russian drones may 'fit better' with Russian queens than drones of other races, but we are not talking of total exclusion or acceptance, just a 'better chance'. There is another feature that has not been mentioned so far, one that is hard to define, but there is possibly a 'degree of fussiness' involved from the drone's point of view. It may be that drones of some races will mate with a wider spectrum of racial types of female, yet some other race's drone may be more particular. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 07:58:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Howard_Kogan?= Subject: NAIS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Friends; I have been involved in the NAIS debate becaise I have chickens and pigeons and both species as well as turkeys, cattle, sheep, hogs, horses, rabbits, goats and farm raised fish (but NOT cats or dogs or cage birds) are currently included in the NAIS plan. I have never found any reference to honeybees in the material. Does anyone have any hard information that honeybees are part of the plan? Beekeepers have plenty to worry about without looking for more! Howard Kogan -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 06:37:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Two Studies Show Health Benefits of Dietary Honey, Propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Two Studies Show Health Benefits of Dietary Honey, Propolis Effect of Dietary Honey on Intestinal Microflora and Toxicity of Mycotoxins in Mice BMC Complement Altern Med., 2006 Mar 14;6(1):6 Effects of Combining Extracts (from Propolis or Zingiber Officinale) with Clarithromycin on Helicobacter Pylori Phytother Res., 2006 Mar 6;20(3):187-190 See Apitherapy News: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 14:43:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Jeff_Peck?= Subject: Re: Cold Weather Connecticut Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Being a Connecticut beekeeper, I would think bees that will forage at lower temps would be an advantage here. "waldig@netzero.com" wrote : "Flying in very cold weather is risky and undesirable since very, very few plants produce nectar in the cold." What about pollen? My bees have been bringing it back from their cold weather flights. Fresh pollen is needed for brood rearing in the early spring. My bees have plenty of stores, yet they still fly at 38 - 40 degrees. I want cold weather bees, to handle our harsh winters. I plan on splitting these survivors. These were home grown queens mated right here in town. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 15:50:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Brian_Fredericksen?= Subject: NAIS, aluminum hats and insect cyborgs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not only could big brother be tracking your honeybees they could even be watching you using your own bees! Geez the old adage of knowing where your queens or packages are coming from takes on new meaning in the future!!! http://www.upi.com/inc/view.php?StoryID=20060312-073227-3194r U.S. military plans to make insect cyborgs By SHAUN WATERMAN UPI Homeland and National Security Editor WASHINGTON, March 12 (UPI) -- Facing problems in its efforts to train insects or build robots that can mimic their flying abilities, the U.S. military now wants to develop "insect cyborgs" that can go where its soldiers cannot. The Pentagon is seeking applications from researchers to help them develop technology that can be implanted into living insects to control their movement and transmit video or other sensory data back to their handlers. In an announcement posted on government Web sites last week, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or DARPA, says it is seeking "innovative proposals to develop technology to create insect cyborgs," by implanting tiny devices into insect bodies while the animals are in their pupal stage. As an insect metamorphoses from a larva to an adult, the solicitation notice says, its "body goes through a renewal process that can heal wounds and reposition internal organs around foreign objects, including tiny (mechanical) structures that might be present." The goal is to create technology that can achieve "the delivery of an insect within five meters of a specific target located at hundred meters away, using electronic remote control, and/or global positioning system." Once at the target, "the insect must remain stationary either indefinitely or until otherwise instructed ... (and) must also be able to transmit data from (Department of Defense) relevant sensors ... includ(ing) gas sensors, microphones, video, etc." The move follows challenges the agency says it has encountered in its efforts to train insects to detect explosives or other chemical compounds, and to mimic their flight and movement patterns using small robots. Several years ago, DARPA launched a $3 million project to train honeybees to find landmines. According to a report by the American Forces Press Service, scientists used sugar-soaked sponges treated with explosives to get the bees to identify the smell as a possible food source. But last week's solicitation says the project didn't work out. "These activities have highlighted key challenges involving behavioral and chemical control of insects... Instinctive behaviors for feeding and mating -- and also for responding to temperature changes -- prevented them from performing reliably," it says. As far as the development of purely robotic or mechanical unmanned aerial vehicles -- so-called micro-UAVs -- the solicitation says that developing energy sources both powerful and light enough "present(s) a key technical challenge." Both sets of challenges "might be effectively overcome" by the development of insect cyborgs, says the solicitation. The devices DARPA wants to implant are micro-electro-mechanical systems, or MEMS. MEMS technology uses tiny silicon wafers like those used as the basis for computer microchips. But instead of merely laying circuits on them, MEMS technology can actually cut and shape the silicon, turning the chip into a microscopic mechanical device. The solicitation envisages the implanted device as a "platform" onto which "various microsystem payloads can be mounted ... with the goal of controlling insect locomotion, sens(ing) local environment, and scaveng(ing) power." "Possible methods of locomotion control may be sensory manipulation, direct muscle interface, or neural interface to the insect," says the document, known as a Broad Agency Announcement. It goes on to say that sensory manipulation, for instance by projecting ultrasonic vibrations or ejecting pheromones, is likely to be species-specific, whereas technology to directly control insect muscles or brains "may be more general." DARPA believes that the heat and mechanical power generated by the insects themselves as they move around "may be harnessed to power the microsystem payload" eliminating the need for batteries or other power systems. The objective is to transform the insects into "predictable devices that can be used for various micro-UAV missions requiring unobtrusive entry into areas inaccessible or hostile to humans." Among potential missions, says the solicitation, would be the collection of "explosive signatures from within buildings, caves, or other inaccessible locations." Although flying insects like dragonflies and moths are "of great interest," the document says, "Hopping and swimming insects could also meet final demonstration goals." Implanting the devices during pupation is key, says the document, because "the insects are immobile and can be manipulated without interference from instinctive motion." As part of their honeybee training project, DARPA glued tiny radio transmitters to the bees, to help track their movement. The solicitation says that the healing processes which insects go through as they change from larvae into adults "are expected to yield more reliable bio-electromechanical interface... as compared to adhesively bonded systems to adult insects." Inserting the devices in pupae could also "enable assembly-line like fabrication of hybrid insect-MEMS interfaces, providing a considerable cost advantage," says the solicitation. DARPA will hold a day-long conference for contractors interested in submitting proposals on March 24. Brian says Just think of the practical uses in the beeyard, never have to crack a box to see whats happening in a hive or even leave your office chair! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 18:48:04 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Apistan Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/03/2006 05:02:11 GMT Standard Time, Waldemar writes: I have a basic question: if fluvenite is wax solubeale, and fluvenite levels in honey have been found acceptable..., then why folks report problems with queens on contaminated wax? After all, queens are not made out of wax. They are in part: the epicuticle, the waterproof outer layer of a bee is made of a waxy substance. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 16:18:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Two Studies Show Health Benefits of Dietary Honey, Propolis In-Reply-To: <20060318063739.84d281a5f2f7df0ef38485a84124037d.29e121cb01.wbe@email.email.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Charlie Harper: Found this interesting in the article you posted: CONCLUSIONS: Substituting sugars with honey in processed food can inhibit the harmful effect of mycotoxins, and improve the gut microflora. Reply: So bees being animals too with guts and also beekeepers feeding them much sugars in the way of food, then honey is better for bees too....and another reason for going organic and staying away from artificial feeds also, wouldn't you think? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 16:24:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: NAIS In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kogan: But it does say "all" livestock and bees are technically "livestock" so things have a way of happening. Something to consider....unless those in the know here can get wording actually included saying that bees are "exluded". Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 20:11:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Brian_Fredericksen?= Subject: observation hive plumbing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have an opportunity to install a large observation hive in a commercial building as part of a food market kiosk.. A major concern is the length of the tube. Due to the locaton in a busy urban area we wanted to go straight up from the hive and out the roof (flat roof) to keep the bees away from the public sidewalks . After perusing the web I found some reference to straight up access being a problem. How long is too long? The ceiling height is over 15 ft. Does anyone have some experience with large indoor installations and plumbing them to the outside world? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 21:18:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Re: Prevalence and Seasonal Variations Bee Viruses in bees and varroa MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Bill Truesdell wrote: > I was told by several beekeepers, when I first started keeping bees, that > there is no reason to rotate in new comb, and that old black, brood comb > had been in their hives for tens of years. I consider that bad advice, > especially in this current age of Varroa, and, actually, in any age. > Perhaps a century or more ago this may have not been so bad advise, unfortunately in spite of the increased human longevity we live in a much more contaminated environment, I believe. Alden Marshall Hudson, NH -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 22:22:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: observation hive plumbing In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18-Mar-06, at 8:11 PM, Brian Fredericksen wrote: > > Does anyone have some experience with large indoor installations > and plumbing them to the outside world? > Hi Brian and all There is a honeybee based tourist attraction in New Zealand, a short distance north of Wellington, near Paraparaumu(pronounced Para pa ram). I didn't see the exit from the extremely large natural hive display but it would have to be some distance from the exhibit. Maybe someone down there can provide details. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 13:07:31 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: 8 or 9 frames in 10 frame honey box ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am expanding my beekeeping and it looks like I would benefit from using frame spacers. This far I have just taken one frame out and spaced the frames by hand. I have to do this to get the frames thicker so that the uncapper does a proper job. Spacer is less work and most likely gives better outcome when the work is done by a temporary worker. Sometimes they are not motivated to do things exactly right way. Also I think that I would get less leaking honey after transport if the frames are hold in the right place by spacers. Now I would like to get advice for two questions 1. I know most beekeepers keep 9 frames in 10 frame honey box, but some individulas have only 8. What is the practical disadvantage of having just 8 ? Should I go for just 8 ? 2. There is no one in this country selling ready made metal spacers. What is the easiest way to do them by myself ? I need about 2000, so I am willing to do some kind of simpe jig if it makes the work easier. Ari Seppälä Finland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 07:11:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: observation hive plumbing MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; reply-type=original; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I would think a vertical tube would not allow bees to fly. Maybe something like an angled tube that would allow them to walk might work. Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 08:38:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: 8 or 9 frames in 10 frame honey box ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Many years ago I read of studies at a university that compared extracted weights from identical supers with 10, nine and eight frames. They proved that hives with nine frames held more than those with 10 frames, and hives with eight frames held more honey than those with nine frames. I cannot provide a reference. I have long used eight frames in my extracting supers and can tell you from personal experience that supers with eight frames full of honey weigh considerably more than the same size supers with either nine or 10 frames. However, I no longer use spacers and instead set the spacing by eye when I put the supers on the hive. This might not be practical if hired help is used. Please keep in mind: 1- Foundation cannot be properly drawn with only eight frames in a super. My experience is that it is best to draw foundation with 10 frames in a super, although in a good flow it is possible to draw good foundation with nine frames in a super. 2- Spacers provide good space for wax moth larvae to escape attention by the bees. This is likely to be a problem only in those areas with long col= d winters. 3- Spacers make it impossible to keep supers free of propolis as the frame rest cannot be scraped. If you will provide an address I will be glad to mail you an eight-frame spacer. It should be easy to get someone to make them out of aluminum. Best regards, -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 07:24:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: 8 or 9 frames in 10 frame honey box ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ari & All, My two cents worth. I don't care for frame spacers. Makes frame rails harder to clean. Ok for a few hives but get in the way on a larger operation. None of the larger beekeepers I cross paths with use spacers. Eight frame spacing might need spacers to prevent the frames falling out of the supers if the frames slide while removing full supers from hives. One problem I have had. I tried 8 frames but did not like for the above reason plus having to deal with such a huge amount of honey going into the cappings tank. In some of the newer cowan type set ups might not be a problem. Others most likely feel different but why I never felt a need to go 8 frames in supers. If wax was higher in price then maybe the extra wax would be of interest. I use 10 frames for comb honey. I like uniform size in packaging. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 09:15:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: 8 or 9 frames in 10 frame honey box ? In-Reply-To: <001901c64b45$524c5a40$0624d5d4@pomi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-75C83207 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > 2. There is no one in this country selling ready made metal spacers...I > am willing to do some kind of simpe jig if it makes the work easier. >Ari Seppälä Ari, I wouldn't make any permanent frame spacers. I had many installed in hives I bought from another beekeeper. They make the frame rests too difficult to scrape. If you value your knuckles, don't waste your time and money on spacers. There is a hand spacer that I use, made by Maxant industries of Ayer, Massachusetts. I believe it is also sold in most bee supply catalogs. Very simple to use...no learning curve involved...for that helper you want. I believe models are made for both 8 and 9 frame spacing. This is the tool you want. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.5/284 - Release Date: 3/17/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 09:18:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: 8 or 9 frames in 10 frame honey box ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >1. What is the practical disadvantage of having just 8 ? The disadvantage of 8 frames is the same as 9, only more so. It is hard to space the frames correctly, and if you don't you will have extra combs built between the frames. However! after a year or two of using the wider spacing, you will have a buildup of propolis and wax on between the frame ends, which will help to space the frames automatically. You have to see this, to believe it. If you run supers with 8 or 9 frames for a couple of seasons you will not even be able to get 10 frames back into the box, without scraping down the frame sides to bare wood. >2. What is the easiest way to do them by myself ? One way is to buy or make one of those rakes that you run down the frames to space them, after you have set the super on the hive. Like I said, you will only have to do this a couple of seasons, then the frames will space themselves, provided you don't scrape off the wax and propolis that builds up between them. One of my beekeeping friends showed me if you shake the super side by side, the frames pretty nearly space themselves the way you want and then you just adjust it a bit. Brother Adam had some kind of tack on the frame ends that did the spacing but I don't know about that. The spacers that you put in the supers are OK, a bit expensive if you buy hundreds, and they have the big disadvantage of preventing you from being able to slide the frames over as a group. By the way, I knew one beekeeper who used 8 frames in his supers, over a ten frame brood nest. He always used queen excluders. That way he could put any old frames in the super (instead of culling the combs), some 100% drone comb, and not worry much about the queen getting into them. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 11:47:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Glen_Glater?= Subject: Best type of bees for East Massachusetts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I live about 25 miles west of Boston. My 2 hives both died over this winter, as did the hives of a friend. We are buying NUCs, and have the option of buying either: Minnesota Hygienic New World Carniolan or Russian Are there recommendations? Is there a summary of the advantages/disadvantages of these sub-species? For example, I've heard that the Russians overwinter well but are a bit more agressive. Your advice and recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks. --glen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 12:15:52 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Cold Weather Connecticut Bees Comments: To: Jeff Peck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Survivor bees, and bees which display cold weather traits like you described is an ideal for your region. Beekeepers today have forgotten what it means to not buy queens from breeders. It used to be commonplace to trade with one another or buy a few to add to one's own stocks, but the majority of queen replacement occurred within the one's own operation, or local groups of cooperating apiaries. Not sure how this is forgotten . -- Scot McPherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 14:48:51 -0500 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: observation hive plumbing In-Reply-To: <002201c64b4e$39f38230$6601a8c0@DanJan> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dan&jan wrote: > I would think a vertical tube would not allow bees to fly. Maybe > something like an angled tube that would allow them to walk might work. We serviced an observation hive that exited about 10 feet above the box. The original clear plastic tube (about 1.5 inch diameter) was steeply angled, and the bees would walk partway up and then tumble back. We made the slope more gradual with 2 elbows, and scored the inside tube with scratches for a better grip, and the bees did pretty well although removal of dead bees was difficult. They chose to walk/hop, not to fly, in all the configurations we tried. An easy clean-out tray would be helpful. At one point the bees were throwing dead bodies into the enclosure surrounding the boardman-type feeder. It definitely adds stress, but with supplemental feeding they should be fine if the tube is not too steep. Carolyn in Plum Branch, SC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 14:54:19 -0500 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: 8 or 9 frames in 10 frame honey box ? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060319090841.014d79a8@pop.together.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Michael Palmer wrote: > > There is a hand spacer that I use, made by Maxant industries of Ayer, > Massachusetts... I don't use permanent spacers either, just take a metal spacer and turn it upside down, then adjust the frames to fit in the notches and remove it. I leave a few at each bee-yard to keep them handy. I'd think the help would be willing to use them, as it is so much easier to remove frames when they can be levered sideways. Carolyn in Plum Branch SC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 12:25:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: 8 or 9 frames in 10 frame honey box ? In-Reply-To: <001901c64b45$524c5a40$0624d5d4@pomi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ari Seppälä Ari, Walter T. Kelly sells both 9 and 8 frame spacers: Cat # 184-9 Cat # 184-8 10 frame spacers cost $4.00 and 100 frame spacers cost $35. Ph: for calling 270-242-2012 Fax: 270-242-4801 In the end it is your call anyways for your field management. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 15:23:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Best type of bees for East Massachusetts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russian bees are the only bee I have worked in shorts and teeshirt some of the crossed Russian can be testy. They winter very well down here in the south and heard they winter better in the north as the Canadians like them very well. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 15:28:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: 8 or 9 frames in 10 frame honey box ? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060319090841.014d79a8@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have used spacers in my supers and brood chambers, have removed them because it makes the frames harder to remove, you have to lift the frame out rather than push it to the side when inspecting and looking for the queen. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 23:04:16 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Gormanston Summer School, Lecture Progtramme In-Reply-To: <441DCBD0.5040802@russianbreeder.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All The schedule is now published for this annual event, it has 72 lectures and workshops that can be attended and has a wide variety within it's structure, there are lectures to suit beginning bee keepers and all stages through to old goats like me... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/gormprog2006.html The main lecturer, Richard Ball is an expert on IPM and a well known bee inspector. This year there is considerable emphasis on Grafting, cell finishing colonies and Mini nucs, as well as instrumental insemination. There is a large contingent of BIBBA members among the lecturers and several of these are also members of the Bee Instrumental Insemination Group... http://www.biig.co.uk BIBBA website... http://www.bibba.com/ If you have not seen the details of the event Gormanston event itself, these pages will help... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/gormflier2006.html http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/gormreservation2006.html Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:22:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: 8 or 9 frames in 10 frame honey box ? In-Reply-To: <000e01c64b58$75a6aaa0$2cbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: Hello Ari & All, My two cents worth. I don't care for frame spacers....... Eight frame spacing might need spacers to prevent the frames falling out of the supers if the frames slide while removing full supers from hives. I use 10 frames for comb honey. I like uniform size in packaging. Bob, You didn't speak to nine frame supers so I will make a comment. If you uncap with a hot knife, using nine frames in your super allows the bees to draw the cells out further away from the frame and makes it easier to uncap. But, if you start with foundation, use ten frames in the super. The bees will really mess things up with cross comb and other no-fun things if you put only nine frames of foundation in a super. After they have drawn the comb out and you are using it for the second time or more, then you can use just nine. Something about bee space or something like that. :) Like Bob, I would suggest that you use ten frames in the super if you are going for cut comb or comb honey. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 19:32:33 -0500 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: Best type of bees for East Massachusetts In-Reply-To: <441DCBD0.5040802@russianbreeder.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Charles Harper wrote: > Russian bees are the only bee I have worked in shorts and teeshirt some > of the crossed Russian can be testy. I almost always work my untreated survivor bees in shorts and a t-shirt (and yes, it is too slow for big commercial situations, I am usually under 50 hives). I started in 1997 with buckfasts and commercial Italians, and since 1999 an assortment of most of the hygienic and SMR lines have been mixed into the open-mated breeding pool along with Russian crosses since they were available, plus 3 years of Russian/Russian. I am isolated enough that these and the feral escapees are the drone pool. Until recently I could keep track of the matriline, now it's really started to blend and Russian characteristics are prominent. The testiest colonies were from a commercial Italian line. I think the Russians mixes have contributed more temperament variation within a given colony according to conditions. With feed or a flow on, the hive that was raising stingers one droughty evening can be gentle as a new swarm on a mid-day flow a week later. With my high diversity this could also be a patriline factor within the hive. I think the Russians have gotten a bad rap for temperament. They do like to bounce off of you without stinging, this could make some folks nervous. Also, I very rarely use smoke, so that may effect their behavior. I do put a pollen substitute, vegetable oil and syrup paste on the frames when I go in to keep them busy. Maybe you just have to bribe them (g)! Carolyn in SC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 19:35:10 -0500 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: Best type of bees for East Massachusetts In-Reply-To: <441DCBD0.5040802@russianbreeder.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit PS, the Russians have definitely expanded the work day. They are out in way cooler temperatures than the others. The behavioral characteristic of using sunning stations seems to help them work in the 40's (F)if it's sunny. Carolyn in SC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:36:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: 8 or 9 frames in 10 frame honey box ? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd Spear wrote:However, I no longer use spacers and instead set the spacing by eye when I put the supers on the hive. This might not be practical if hired help is used. What one can do is make a board with a handle on top and what looks like sharks teeth on the bottom. Place your eight or nine frames in the super and then insert this board teeth side down over one end of the frames. As the board goes down the teeth will slide the frames apart to the proper width. Then do the same with the other end of the frames. It's a really quick way to semi-automatically space your frames. I will try to show what I mean below. ______________________ | HANDLE | | __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | |/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \| Rather crude drawing but I think you can get the idea. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:49:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Best type of bees for East Massachusetts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Glen Glater wrote:We are buying NUCs, and have the option of buying either: Minnesota Hygienic; New World Carniolan; or Russian Are there recommendations? Is there a summary of the advantages/disadvantages of these sub-species? For example, I've heard that the Russians overwinter well but are a bit more agressive. Your advice and recommendations would be appreciated. Glen, I have no experience with the New World Carniolan but do have with one line of Russians. The line, I'm told is blue, yellow, white. It hasn't done too well with Varroa mite control, but I have not found them to be any more aggressive than the SMR's and the Italian/Buckfast's that I have in the same yard. I have worked them right up to the start of a hard thunderstorm and had no trouble with any of them with over aggresiveness. In fact, I was amazed that they continued to ignore me and continued on with their business. The Russians are reputed to be very miserly in their consumption of stores over the winter. Winter over in a small cluster, and with the onset of a flow of nectar, build up quite rapidly. In your cold winter climate, this might be of an advantage. The only problem would be if your main honey flow follows too closely behind the initial spring nectar flow. If so, you might be building up your colony strength with main flow honey. Mike in LA For what it is worth. Mike in LA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 20:50:52 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: Best type of bees for East Massachusetts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply to Glen Gater on purchasing Nucs I started with Buckfast and keep them and similar in another yard. I got into Russian bees simply for the reason of Hygenics to deal with the varroa etc. I have the yellow line and expecting some new O Blue queens to vary the genetics in the yard. I had different lines in the past and always try to be informed by the breeder on what the latest is getting the specs from him as to production, hygenic test results , quick test, nosema spores etc etc. >From the list I pick the best! When I got the first nucs several years ago, I was amazed how fast they needed more room and brought me 150 lbs of honey each by the end of the season. One has to get use to the way they operate and for example if there is a dearth period for some time one might find no eggs and maybe no brood either and then she fires up and voila as the say they bring in the gold. I treat them for foulbrood using teramyacin and nothing else. Sorry no apistan, no coumophos , no formic nor oxalic. They do the house cleaning really well. As for gentleness, with the exception of rubbing them the wrong way at the wrong time, I'm around them in short sleeves and maybe a veil if they pick on me cause I'm not a bee. All queens are closed mated. They're a little more pricey but the savings are in the treatments and time. and time is money that's why most of us have bees I think! My hives in the winter are insulated although it is said that these creatures do really well in the traditional manner of keeping. Swarming has not really been an issue and you have to be on top of things on a regular basis. Production average is 150 to 200 lbs. I'm into varietal honey and bottom super. Walter Little Wolf Apiaries Ontario -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 09:34:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > p.s. the natural and organic food segment is growing at 20-25% per year , > > The problem is the organic sales are not all from the little guys like > you. > Big business is moving in. My friends which are certified organic for > their > farms are beginning to complain. Look at how the prices for organic > produce > has dropped over the last three years in the stores! > Why would not the big corporate farms get on board? They get one farm > organic certified and then run all their produce from the 10 other farms > under the organic label. There is no enforcement of any kind. Zero! > Hello Bob and All, This is something that will not stop. Don't fight the big guys.Let them beat themselves. My job is to educate the public and let my product sell itself. I have no problem and get top dollar for my honey. The market place will run the show. Quality will always win.People need to know what is quality first. We have honey sales all over the world. It has taken years to get the word out and now it has paid off. I don't need to use the word organic with my honey. I have pictures of my operation and explain what we do to get clean raw honey and where we collect it from nature. One picture is worth a 1,000 words. I will not waist my time with those that cheat. That is there problem. My product is my problem. I can take care of that myself. I wish we had a flat table to work with, but the big money will do anything and everything to make more money. Right or wrong. The good news is coming in as we speak. More people are understanding , they are what they eat.Push that and be honest , the rest will shake out over time. Farmers markets are growing all the time and more people are getting the idea of getting it direct from the farmer. Don't expect the USDA to help the little guy. We have the best goverment money can buy. Thank You Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries hiveharvest.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 15:25:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Observation hive plumbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My hive has 2 ells and a rise of about 6 feet straight up. I assumed = they were flying it from the looks of the traffic. Have seen slightly = longer runs with holes drilled(1/8") I suppose to let light in. I'm told = they need the light or they won't find the exit. This was 1 1/2" white = PVC. Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 23:59:27 -0800 Reply-To: port128@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Porter Subject: Re: observation hive plumbing Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dan & Jan, Added thought about dust collector hose. In both 2.5" and 4" sizes you can buy flanges that secure to the side of a hive after drilling a large exit hole for the bees. Use collector hose fittings on the hose and you can insert/remove easily in the flanges. If you use a T-fitting immediately outside the hive exit the undertaker bees will drop dead bees in the drop where they will stack up, and with the right fittings you can easily empty them by unplugging. JP -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 21:46:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I don't need to use the word organic with my honey. I think Roy and I are on the same page. Explaining to people you do not put chemicals in your hives and the way your honey is processed will work better than teaching the public that if you see honey with the word "organic" on the label you should buy without question. Big packers have told me they will find a way to use the "organic" label. I believe if all they have to do is print the word "organic" on their label then the price for their "organic honey" will be the same as they sell now in stores or about two bucks a pound retail ( price in over a hundred KC area stores right now). Paper trails exist of packer purchase of "local honey" & "organic honey" but many packers label many many times the amount they buy as both because there are no label police. They are on the honor system. Consumers need to know that just because the honey has a local packer address does not mean the honey is from a local source. We have got three packers in the Kansas City area selling out of state honey as "local honey". Enforcement is needed for label laws. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:57:28 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: [BEE-L] 8 or 9 frames in 10 frame honey box ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Many thanks for so many answers to my question. Many good points. I kind of expected the problems to be with comb building. So I'll go for just 9 in a box. At the moment this is a issue to me as I have to put foundations to many supers. I normally mix them with drawn combs. So now I think that I'll try Mikes, Carolyns and Michaels recommendation about a special spacing comb which I use from top of the frames. I have some boxes that are permanently only for honey. I'll make some metal spacers and nail those on or just use nails as Walter kindly explaned in private email. I' ll see those for few years. I'll make most for 9 frames, but some for 8 just to see. I did not think that propolis could become problem with these, so that was a good comment. Beekeeping is local, so I'll try to see how it is here.. Bob's statement that none of the big beekeepers he meets use spacers was a surprice for me. Somehow I had got an idea that most big beekeepers in USA used them. I quess when you truck the bees you always have 10 frames in a 10 frame box. For Lloyd thanks for a generous offer of sending a sample. No need as I bought one already your 1999 when I was in Vacouver for Apimondia. Like I told no one makes them around here, and the few on lists in Central Europe cost a lot. Dee the price in USA is right, but the transport and tax most likely more than doubles it for a small lot. Thanks Ari Seppälä -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 23:50:04 -0800 Reply-To: port128@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Porter Subject: Re: observation hive plumbing Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dan & Jan, Pipe is not a good vertical outlet for bees, the inside is too smooth and straight. A better choice is flexible dust collector hose which comes in 2 1/2" and 4" sizes in both clear and black. It can be shaped as a spiral round a vertical post, thereby reducing the degree of the slope involved and the vinyl provides a stickier surface than ABS or PVC. The more turns in a spiral the more the slope is reduced, and the longer distance they have to travel. The longer the distance the larger the diameter you should use. - Black is less distracting for the bees, they don't get confused by the light - Clear is better for observation, and with time the bees will figure out how to ignore the light coming in the hose. Woodcraft and Rocklers are a better place to buy than Home Depot or Lowes. Enjoy, JP -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 08:39:53 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=E3o=20Campos?= Subject: Re: Mating preferences In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dave, > I wish more work would be done, it would be helpful if > what was actually relevant to the matter was properly collated > and referenced into a bibliography, but I don't know of any work > ongoing at the minute. I wonder if the bee tracking devices, like the ones used by Joe Riley and Jerry Bromenshenk in their experiments, wouldn't be of great help to clarify things about open matings. Besides the cost, are there other limitations to monitor long flights? Riley's experiment was a short range, about 200 m, if I recall well. Would harmonic radar be able to track bees over several kilometers? And what about lidar? Can it discriminate drones and queens (if they are marked in some way) and track them over large areas? A more solid knowledge about open matings could be extremely useful for the beekeeping community, I think. Best Regards, João Campos _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:04:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Township officials ordered him to remove his hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/regional/s_434924.html After 15 years of working with honeybees at his Marshall, PA home, master beekeeper Bob Jenereski has been stung in a way he never expected. Township officials ordered him to remove his 16 hives or face fines of up $500 a day. They say his 1-acre lot is too small for agricultural use. No firm deadline has been set, but officials would like the bees gone by the start of spring, which begins today. Jenereski, 65, keeps 250 hives on local farms. His bees pollinate crops for free, and he gets the honey -- about 50 to 100 pounds per hive. He uses the hives at his home to breed queen bees -- a tricky process that requires constant monitoring. The retired bookkeeper estimates he loses at least $15,000 a year on the hobby. "I do it from the love of bees and trying to help the local farmers," Jenereski said. "Every day and every year that goes by, it's tougher to kee= p bees alive. What I'm trying to do is keep beekeeping alive in Western Pennsylvania." Until a neighbor complained, Marshall officials were unaware of Jenereski's hives, zoning officer Bill Campbell said. Township law requires 5 acres for agricultural use, such as farms or, in Jenereski's case, beehives. Campbell said officials would have taken action against Jenereski sooner had they known about his bees. Jenereski, who has kept honeybees for 46 years, said he did not believe the township's land requirement applied to him. Neighbor John Kovak, who has lived there for 10 years, said he has not had = a problem with Jenereski's bees. "We see a lot of bees amongst the flowers, but I've never been stung and they've never bothered me," Kovak said. "I don't think the township has proved what the damage is. ... I mean, what's the harm?" pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:14:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard A Cartwright Subject: Re: "Apistan" honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Thanks for all the thoughts on Apistan residues in honey/comb. As with any topic, there are always differing views resulting in thought-provoking discussions. However, discussions have migrated away from my original concern; and that is the residual amounts of Apistan (fluvalinate) in honey in regards to human health. I think there was only one response that addressed this (Lloyd Spear), and he seemed to feel there was no human health concern; is it possible that all are in agreement with this? Thanks Dick Cartwright Long Island, New York -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 06:54:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: China to Publicize New National Standard for Royal Jelly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII China to Publicize New National Standard for Royal Jelly Xinhua China Economic Information Service, 3/20/2006 TIANJIN, March 20 (CEIS) – A new national standard for royal jelly, a popular bee product in China, is likely to be publicized in the first half of 2006 in a bid to eliminate fake royal jelly rampant in domestic market, Luo Shangye, vice president of China’s Bee Products Association (CBPA) said here on March 16... See Apitherapy News: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 10:28:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Glen_Glater?= Subject: suppliers of NUCs in MA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thank you for all of the advice about types of bees to use and about my intended source for bees. does anyone have a listing of beekeepers/suppliers in the MA area that have NUCs available? This is what I know: Reseska Apiaries does not have NUCs this year. Thanks. --glen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 08:45:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: NAIS, aluminum hats and insect cyborgs In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed As I said last week, much of this article is in error. DARPA will do what DARPA intends, but the notion of "bees failing" is false (that came from the reporter, who didn't talk to DARPA or me or apparently anyone else),and we're the ones who put chips on bees with Pacific NW labs. The purpose was to track bees looking for landmines, since at the time, we did not have any technology that could located unmarked bees (bees without tags of some form -- paint, dusts, transmitters. Our tags were too heavy - they disrupted flight. However, the design team, who could not receive any additional funding to reduce the size of the tags, went on to design the RFID chip being used by the big box stores like Wal-Mart. That's why we can now offer inventory control and beehive protection technologies based on best-available-technology -- we've continued to work with this design group. Maybe we don't have the elusive queen marker, but we can mark anything from frames to pallets. Jerry And yes, some day, I hope you can check most of your hives from your easy chair -- I do it now. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 09:22:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Vs: [BEE-L] 8 or 9 frames in 10 frame honey box ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Bob's statement that none of the big beekeepers he meets use spacers was a surprice for me. When Stoller came up with the spacers we all thought they would be a good thing to use and tried spacers. We quickly found they were a pain for the reasons listed. We remove any we find. >Somehow I had got an idea that most big beekeepers in USA used them. I have never seen a large beekeeper using spacers in honey supers. I have never seen a spacer in a honey super of Bell Honey (Florida). I have seen slats on many deep supers used in large operations. The typical small hand holds are dangerous in areas of intense flows where deep supers can weigh 80 or so pounds. Gloves wet from honey and those hand holds are dangerous. I have had my big toe on my right foot broken . The only good point about spacers in the super would be saving the time of spacing when placing supers on the hive. Many other problem issues such as cleaning rails, hard to remove frames and repair of loose spacers. I use 9 frame spacing in supers and usually only a couple frames need adjusting. You can as suggested jar the box before placing and most frames will line up. I hire an autistic person to work in my honey house. He does an excellent job of cleaning frames and rails. He lines frames correctly in supers after extracting and is picky about placement on storage skids. Part of his handicap. He is slow but steady. I do not have to stand over him to get the work done. I dread the day I lose his help. I have got wooden spacer tools like Mike suggested which work to space quickly but usually quicker to simply adjust a frame or two. Especially the outside frames. >I quess when you truck the bees you always have 10 frames in a 10 frame box. Nine is the norm. 10 are slower to work as frames are harder to remove. I buy used equipment and once 9 has been used its hard to go to 10 frames. Also we use inside feeders. Some boxes have got 8 frames and an inside feeder. Some 9. Whatever works. My autistic helper is to slow for bee yard work which is sad. I do take him when not in a hurry or doing work like putting on honey supers. He is completly not bothered by a room full of supers waiting to be extracted. Others are overwelmed and act like the car driver which can not wait to get to his destination instead of sitting back and enjoying the trip. My autistic helper never gets upset when I dump a pallet of boxes or run a tank over. I get upset (at myself) but when I look over he is getting the tools needed to clean up the spill or picking up the boxes. I have learned from his nature. I am the only person in the area which will hire the boy which is sad. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 10:19:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1250?Q?Jiri_Borik?= Subject: urban beekeeper visitor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I am hobby beekeeper from Europe. In April I will go to study trip round US (Los Angeles, San Francisco, Las Vegas, San Antonio, Houston, Memphis, Columbus, Arlington, Boston). If I will have a bit of free time I would like to visit some similar beekeeper (small number of colony in urban area). Does anybody here have some tip to visit ? Thanks, Jiri Borik Czech Republic Europe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 17:58:48 +0000 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: <000601c64bcf$4ef65dc0$6701a8c0@DADS> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 09:34 -0800, Roy Nettlebeck wrote: > The market place will run the show. Quality will always win.People need to > know what is quality first. I have been approached by high quality retailers for my honey. They have tried many labels and chosen mine for its quality and because I give the location where it comes from. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 13:21:30 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bruce Mogardo Subject: Re: suppliers of NUCs in MA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is a list of beekeeper organizations from Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont and such. An email to them should get you gong in the right direction. Some clubs offer a list of members and may state if they sell bees, queens or nucs. The last 2 sites have nucs for sale but generally not until mid May or later. One trick is to get a package of bees from somewhere and change queens when the Northern people have them available. This will get you going to building up the hive so you can get a crop for this year. You could even wait until early fall, after you pull your honey, to re queen with Northern stock. ( I've done this many times) This would work just fine if you have already committed yourself to buying some nucs. Most of these clubs have bees coming next month. Connecticut Beekeepers Association _http://www.ctbees.com/_ (http://www.ctbees.com/) Back Yard Beekeepers Association (Fairfield County, CT and Westchester County, NY) _http://www.backyardbeekeepers.com/_ (http://www.backyardbeekeepers.com/) Massachusetts Beekeepers Association _http://www.massbee.org/_ (http://www.massbee.org/) Bristol County Beekeepers Association (Massachusetts) _http://www.bristolbee.com/_ (http://www.bristolbee.com/) Essex County Beekeepers Association (Massachusetts) _http://essexcountybeekeepers.org/_ (http://essexcountybeekeepers.org/) Hampden County Beekeepers Association (Massachusetts) _http://hampden-county-beekeepers.org/_ (http://hampden-county-beekeepers.org/) Middlesex County Beekeepers Association (Massachusetts) _http://www.ziplink.net/~tedshy/_ (http://www.ziplink.net/~tedshy/) Norfolk County Beekeepers Association (Massachusetts) _http://www.norfolkbees.org/_ (http://www.norfolkbees.org/) Worcester County Beekeepers Association (Massachusetts) _http://www.honeybeeclub.org/_ (http://www.honeybeeclub.org/) Vermont Beekeepers Association _http://www.vtbeekeepers.org/_ (http://www.vtbeekeepers.org/) _http://www.warmcolorsapiary.com/_ (http://www.warmcolorsapiary.com/) http://www.lagrantshoneybees.com/index.html In a message dated 3/20/2006 11:18:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, bees2@OLDMOOSE.COM writes: Thank you for all of the advice about types of bees to use and about my intended source for bees. does anyone have a listing of beekeepers/suppliers in the MA area that have NUCs available? This is what I know: Reseska Apiaries does not have NUCs this year. Thanks. --glen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- "Be yourself, because you gotta be someone and everybody else is already taken". -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 18:58:41 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Best type of bees for East Massachusetts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Russian bees are the only bee I have worked in shorts and teeshirt... I found NWCs to be very gentle. Caucasians are reputed to be the gentlest race - a beekeeping friend has Caucasian crosses and swears by them for the suburban scene. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 12:11:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: "Apistan" honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick, what is your "human health" concern? Do you think that there is too much fluvalinate in honey? What is your tolerance level? I haven't heard of any USDA or EPA findings of too high a level of fluvalinate in honey. Have you? I do know that there are acceptable levels. Though I don't know what the numbers are. I'm sure that you can find many people who would agree with your opinion, as well as other opinions. My opinion is that the most current data that I know of show acceptable levels in the samples taken. What is your area of expertise? Beekeeper, honey consumer? Federal employee? Do you work for the United States Geological Survey? Richard A Cartwright wrote: the residual amounts of Apistan (fluvalinate) in honey in regards to human health. Dick Cartwright Long Island, New York --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 18:14:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Your helper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, I am encouraged to hear of your autistic helper and the lessons learned. I was out of the country (visiting with my daughter working the bees in Paraguay-Peace Corp) and one of the main things I noticed when reentering the US was our fast hyper-intense pace of life. been in it so long just thought it was the only way. When I was preparing to leave for America, I recieved the only standing ovation for a T-shirt I have ever had in a Chinese Restaraunt down there. These guys just walked up behind me and started applauding.I was dumbstruck. The Tshirt I was wearing reads (translated): Only when the last river has been dried up The last tree been cut down the last fish caught Will man realize you cant eat money. As Gandhi said: There is more to life than increasing its speed. Or as my Lord said: Consider the birds of the air, they neither plant or harvest,build storehouses or barns,but your heavenly Father feeds them, are you not more valuable than the birds. John Horton PS Thanks for the advice from many about working with the africanizd bees. As it turned out, they were very very mild. My daughter has caught a dozen or so swarms down there, and she has thankfully never encountered any really nasty ones. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 18:16:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: almond pollination 2006 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have done many posts on BEE-L about migratory beekeeping. I do so many times to give insight into the largely unknown world of migratory beekeeping. Today we are waiting for a semi load of bees out of almonds caught up in a blizzard on interstate 80. We are in touch with the truck driver (a professional bee trucker) by cell phone. 12-24 inches of snow and wind blowing from 20-40 MPH. White out conditions with thunder snow. I 80 is closed behind him and in front of him. In Kansas City we are making plans to unload the truck as soon as he arrives. You can read of our problems loading a semi in a Missouri snowstorm in the April 2004 issue of the American Bee Journal. Predicted is a similar storm for our area. The only thing which will stop the progress of our east bound load will be a closed road. Otherwise the load will keep moving using chains on both drive axles. Once the load arrives regardless of the storm we will begin unloading. Cold rain, freezing rain or foot of snow. The driver needs to get back on the road to California for another load of bees. Out of state beekeepers earn every penny of their California pollination fees. California beekeepers are overpaid in my opinion if one considers the cost and risk involved with bringing bees from far away areas. I am packed and the truck fueled in case we need to make a trip north to handle a bee truck wreck on snow packed roads. I never heard of an overturned bee truck in winter but always can happen. I have driven loads of bees in bad weather. Not fun. Once in a snow/ice storm without brakes. We were coming back from Texas in a snowstorm and when we thought the worse was over the brakes went out. Because we were alone on the road and close to home (with more snow predicted) we limped home using the emergency brake. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 20:13:31 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Fischer Alchemy Subject: Re: observation hive plumbing I have installed several observation hives in rooms with high ceilings, and I find it to be a very good idea to punch through the wall for the exit as high as possible, so as to keep the bees flying well above civilian head height. The bees have no problem at all with the set-up. I use 2-inch diameter clear tubing, which is sold at Lowes, Home Despot, and other big-box hardware stores in the plumbing department. The fittings at both the hive end and the exit end are flanged PVC pipe, and a hose clamp is used on both ends to make sure that the clear pipe cannot be removed even if pulled on by a mischievous child. The trick in getting the bees to climb a near-vertical or vertical tube is simple - tie a rope to a stick, and tie a weight to the other end of the rope. Feed the rope down the tubing. The stick will keep the exit end of the rope from falling into the tube. The rope will help the bees adjust, and some bees will prefer climbing the rope to climbing the inside surface of the tubing. After a week or so, the bulk of the bees will be climbing the inside surface of the tubing, marching in an out as if they had been born to do so. I can take photos next week, as Dad and I intend to install at least one observation hive at the local state park visitor center before the end of the month for their spring opening. (Send me e-mail if you want photos) In winter, we simply plug the exit-end PVC pipe with a rag, leaving the clear piping dangling in place after we remove the hive for relocation to a standard wooden hive for feeding and overwintering. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 22:57:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi everyone, My approach to the organic issue, especially the marketing aspect, is very similar to Roy's. I think it would do us good to be a little more realistic, though. I don't think it's cynicism to say that consumers, especially in our suburban society, are shallow and ignorant. What do they know about beekeeping? What do they know about farming? I don't think they're in any position to judge our organic/pseudo-organic standards. I'd like to think they can trust us and learn from us, and I believe in face-to- face business models, but these aren't things that build a bottom line. I trust that your standards have integrity, Roy, but I think you could make just as much money and more if you forgot about the kind of integrity that your customers don't understand anyway and just focused on the fluff and buzzwords. Of course, I'm not defending that way of doing things, but I think those aspects are what make the bottom line. So I have a hard time believing that "quality will always win" or that what's paying off is education. Try selling "quality" and "education" without the feel-good images and decorative jars, and I think you'll find that the feel-good images and decorative jars are subsidizing your quality. The beekeepers I know who do things most organically do so because they believe in it, often without profiting from their organic standards one bit. I have yet to find any way to convey my organic standards in a way that makes me any more money than the guy that's just throwing around empty buzzwords and dressing things up. Even so, I'm plenty happy with my bottom line. It would be nice to believe in an inherent market advantage for genuine quality/organic standards, but I don't see it. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 03:28:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?subscribe_bee-l_David_M.?=" Subject: Re: observation hive plumbing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I operate an observation hive in a commercial building, a nursery in a family farm/market. The hive sits 3' off the ground, with a small 2' long horizontal exit. This intersects a vertical tube which is a 6" x 6" square acrylic tube, 10' high as measured from the hives standard 2' horizontal exit. The top of the tube then goes through a wall horizontally, with an overhang to help protect the tube from rain. With the hive base 3' off the ground, the entrance/exit is 12' high. This setup allows the visitors to see the bees coming and going, and keeps them as protected as can be. In all the years I have operated it, no visitor has been stung by a honeybee, despite the tremendous number of visitors to the farm to shop and take the rides in the amusement park. Several problems encountered were the temerature/pressure difference from inside and out, resulting in a draft that must be kept out of the hive. Keeping the tube from going directly into the hive was the answer. The vertical tube is longer than necessary to go from the roof to the hive, with a removable screen at the bottom, several inches below the horizontal exit of the observation hive which intersects it. This allows dead bees to be removed, as the bees will drag them out of the hive to the screen, and any that die near the entrance, will naturally fall to it as well. Once the bees are accustomed to the tube, the screen can often be removed, cleaned and replaced without any bees exiting into the room. Rainfall is another problem, but a small roof or shedding structure at the top will help. Security may be another problem, if the solution to your situation allows inadvertent access through an opening that would allow someone the ability to open it further and gain access from the outside. One way to overcome this is to set the hive/vertical tube near a wall with a gable end of the building. This usually allows a peak ceiling, small shed roof on the exterior, and horizontal exit that can eliminate dealing with later leaking problems. The bees do try to walk up, with difficulty, as well as fly. The overall setup does add stress, but then any observation hive is always under added stress relative to a standard hive. If you maintain the hive well, as any observation hive needs to be, the extra length for the exit shouldn't be a problem. It does take a while for them to figure out how to get in and out, but they do figure it out. The trick of adding a string is a good one, and works well, with or without sugar syrup on it. I did encounter one situation in which the bees attempted to build additional comb at the base of the vertical acrylic tube during an exceptionally heavy nectar flow. Good luck with your hive. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 09:49:33 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Mating preferences In-Reply-To: <20060320113953.73364.qmail@web33409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi João > I wonder if the bee tracking devices, like the ones used by Joe Riley > and Jerry Bromenshenk in their experiments, wouldn't be of great help > to clarify things about open matings. I don't think the current generation of such tracking devices would help much in this respect. Give them a boost in frequency by about ten and use much bigger dishes would increase range and reduce the load on the bee. But we really need video info close in to the action and for that I can envisage a video camera carrying model aircraft of neutral buoyancy (helium balloons) positioned by electric fans, guided by remote control that can be flown to follow the action. I do not think that such a craft would be difficult or expensive to fabricate and it would provide thousands of hours of video for geeks like me to watch/study. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:23:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bill_Lord?= Subject: Organic honey is real in Europe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am working on a beekeeping project in Eastern Europe in which we have sponsored organic certification for approximately 2000 beekeepers. I have run cost of production analysis on the organic and conventional beekeepers in the project and though the organic production costs are slightly higher, the returns justify the expense and the bees appear to be healthier. I just returned from Biofach 2006 - THE organic trade fair in Europe - in Nuremburg Germany, and I must say that organics have arrived in Europe. Biofach was huge, with any organic food product imaginable (including clothes), and the people displaying and attending were all about business. We were able to negotiate contracts for selling organic acacia and linden honey for a 30% premium over conventional honey. I heard a presentation at the ABF meeting in Louisville characterizing the European organic system (regarding honey) as being driven by residue analysis, not record keeping and certification. The speaker was misinformed. The organic beekeepers we work with keep extensive hive records and go through annual inspections by the certifying agency. The buyer that purchased organic honey from our clients at Biofach had run the honey through a lab, but only for physical and chemical analysis - they trusted the certification program. I think the European food market is much more sophisticated than the U.S. food market and organic honey is being produced and sold in Europe. It is difficult to say if the organic program is sustainable, but if the price holds up and the bees (and beekeepers) continue to look good, it is hard to argue with success. Bill Lord Louisburg, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 09:11:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gilles Maguet Subject: Suffering from indepedent philosophy In-Reply-To: <000d01c64c7c$aa0d6ca0$24bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >California beekeepers are overpaid in my opinion if one considers the cost >and risk involved with bringing bees from far away areas. > > > Do we really want to believe that beekeepers are overpaid? Point your arrows at fortune 500 CEO's, not the primary food producers of the world. These statements only serve to further divide beekeepers or farmers for that matter. All the large successful companies have for several decades, been merging. They realize something that the fiercely independent beekeeper/farmer doesn't; It pays to be united and work co-operatively. If beekeepers/farmers could do the same, they might not be a the bottom of the ladder, receiving the least amount of money that comes out of agriculture, and there is a lot of money in agriculture. If you look at supply managed dairy and poultry in Canada, you will find a very prosperous agricultural sector that is not subsidized by taxpayers. The potato growers in the U.S. are cutting production co-operatively to attain a better return on their huge investments. I think these examples need to be followed if we want a more stable beekeeping industry. Gilles -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:26:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Mating preferences In-Reply-To: <441FCC2D.8080101@lineone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave suggested video, to the question from João >>I wonder if the bee tracking devices wouldn't be of great help >>to clarify things about open matings. Our newest lasers should be able to do this with ease -- we'll be testing this summer, if our partner Univ gets the range we hope for. Keep your fingers crossed. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 11:03:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard A Cartwright Subject: Re: "Apistan" honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" < Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Suffering from indepedent philosophy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Giles & All, I agree for the most part with Giles post but would like to address my "one liner" which I knew would spark interest. Bob said: >California beekeepers are overpaid in my opinion if one considers the cost and risk involved with bringing bees from far away areas. Giles said: >Do we really want to believe that beekeepers are overpaid? I never said "beekeepers" are overpaid. I am a commercial beekeeper. I was speaking to a situation which happened in California this year. The subject of an article which should be in most mail boxes this week (April Amercian Bee Journal). Beekeeper greed set up the problems in California this year. Prices last year for most almond pollinators ran in the $65 a hive range (what our group got) with a few people getting higher fees (we got a $100 a hive for some last minute hives sold into almonds and four pound Australian package hives) which you can read about in my article in the April 2005 ABJ. The double prices plus asked of almond growers and brokers set in motion hive strength standards of which all but a few beekeepers had trouble meeting. Almond brokers signed contracts for $150 a hive but in the fine print said the hives needed to be 8-10 frames of bees as evaluated by *their inspectors*. When many beekeepers arrived in California they found their hives did not meet the requirments and the whole load was rejected (although they were the same strength as did the bumper pollination of the year before in many cases?????). Some points to consider about California beekeepers charges ( as told to me by almond growers pissed off). Some almond growers compared California beekeepers pricing in 2006 to oil company pricing at the gas pump. Record profits! They did understand higher prices for out of state beekeepers (up to a point). California beekeepers will say " a hive is a hive regardless of origin and the high price rewards the beekeeper with the best hives". Almond growers have got the opposite opinion. Here in lies the problem. Almond growers position: 1. close to beekeepers in most cases so no expensive trucking charges. 2. large buildup which they use to their advantage to make splits. 3. They rent the same hives into Cherries, plums and other orchards for from $10 to $35 bucks ( yet they feel the almond growers need to pay $150). Out of turmoil comes change (hopefully). Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:31:36 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: "Apistan" honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As with nearly all industrial chemicals, zero exposure is the safest bet. Read you msds sheets for chems and compounds you use daily. You might be surprised how harmful everyday chems can be. Most of them are hazmat orm-d rated, which means they are hazmats, but used far too much by consumers to be regulated making the products too expensive. There is a reason for the warnings on nearly every product you buy for your household. -- Scot McPherson McPherson Family Honey Farms, Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:36:11 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: "Apistan" honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good day to all: In my quest to inform myself about breeding bees in general I came upon the following sites since my interest lies somewhat in things that affect the genetics i.e reproductive aspects of our bees. We all either buy or raise queens. These in turn were "serviced" by drones. Apistan is Fluvianate Fluvinate is a Pyrethroid Pyrethoids are endocrine disruptors. read on and put two and two together yourself. Are the reproductive systems of our queens and drones healthy ; let alone worrying about human consumption since it was pointed out that detection limits take care of that end ? Pyrethroids _http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/pyrethrins.pdf_ (http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/pyrethrins.pdf) Endocrine disruptors _http://www.nrdc.org/health/effects/qendoc.asp_ (http://www.nrdc.org/health/effects/qendoc.asp) _http://www.hclrss.demon.co.uk/class_insecticides.html_ (http://www.hclrss.demon.co.uk/class_insecticides.html) pyrethroid ester insecticide _http://www.hclrss.demon.co.uk/summ_insecticides.html_ (http://www.hclrss.demon.co.uk/summ_insecticides.html) Walter Ontario -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:13:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: "Apistan" honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Walter & All, I think what we should consider now is Apistan is not being used today in most honey & queen rearing operations. Neither is checkmite. Both give almost no protection to varroa in many areas of the U.S.. They are kept alive by being offered for sale by the bee supply houses. Apistan (fluvalinate) quit working in Missouri years ago.Checkmite (Coumaphos) quit working several years ago. A Georgia speaker came to Kansas (Kansas Fun Day 2004) and told beekeepers you could go back to Apistan use. Those that did lost most their hives. One beekeeper lost around 600 hives. My phone rang off the wall about what ( the Georgia speaker ) said. I said I did not know if it had been long enough but suggested testing along with treatment. I was not ready to ever cycle back to chemical strips but others were due to ease of chemical strip treatment. Two weeks into Apistan treatment those going back to Apistan saw Apistan did not provide control. The ones which pulled the strips and went to Api Life Var in most cases saved the hives. The beekeepers which pulled the strips and put checkmite in lost all their hives. I am sure there are areas in which both Apistan & Checkmite still work to a degree but even bee supply houses warn users to always check to make sure the products are working. Most beekeepers today are using other methods and treatments. Bob Ps. I quit using chemical strips years ago and changed all my brood comb out over a four year period. I doubt I would have ever used either product if I had known about the wax contamination issues and as Walter points out the drone & queen issues. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 20:25:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: "Apistan" honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...fluvalinate...has limited partitioning (0.002 mg/L or 2 micrograms/L) into water-based liquids (honey) Does this mean that, if you throw wax combs into water, very little fluvalinate will migrate from the wax into the water? >>(MSDS) for Apistan lists acute toxicity for rainbow trout as 2.7 micrograms/L in a 96 hour study!.... I'm not comfortable ingesting it myself. I'm thinking this explains the reported damage to queens/drones. I believe fish and amphibians are much more susceptible to toxins than mammals. >>What was once thought of as an 'acceptable level' can be 'unacceptable' later. I've been recently listening with interest to Gary Knoll (www.garyknoll.com) on PRI (Public Radio International)... He says a lot of chemicals INDIVIDUALLY may have non-toxic levels for humans. However, a lot of the scientific studies - including ones by the FDA - don't account for the interaction of the low doses of these chemicals with hundreds of other chemicals in the body. For this reason, a lot of previously acceptable levels have been tightened. >>Half will likely be fed back to new packages of bees. Better feed it all to the packages than yourself, my friend. :) Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:49:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Organic honey is real in Europe In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5ABD1DEF > The organic beekeepers we work with keep extensive hive >records and go through annual inspections by the certifying agency. Bill, do the Europeans have any restrictions on apiary location. You know...like we do. Bees must be 2 miles from population centers of 3500, state roads, active farms, dumps, golf courses, etc, etc? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.5/284 - Release Date: 3/17/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 14:06:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Lewis, Thomas A SOPUS-DMU/334" Subject: Re: Suffering from independent philosophy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greeting! this is my first attempt to post on BEE-L, however I have been lurking for some time. The issue of overpaid beekeepers is laughable no matter where the beekeeper comes from. The California beekeeper has a huge cost of living disadvantage, be it cost of real estate, rent or labor issues for his/her employees. If the out of state beekeepers can't overcome their advantage regarding the cost of living, then clearly they need to re evaluate the migratory part of their business. If the California beekeeper can't compete, the same holds true. If the Farmer can't get enough bees do the job, there will be a cheap orchard for sale at the end of the season, and the cost of California real state will drop proportionately. Giles is on the right track regarding beekeepers holding out for reasonable prices, however, the large orchard owners, and particularly brokers are not allies but employers. Fraternally, Tom Lewis Martinez Ca. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:38:23 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Township officials ordered him to remove his hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps the township officials should be informed that bees are not 'agricultural' but 'apicultural' and so are exempt. According to my dictionary 'agriculture' is the art and practice of cultivating the land. The beekeeper is doing nothing to the land. It would be a pity if the beekeeper were to lose his home apiary through the ignorance or dyslexia of officialdom. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 23:28:26 -0000 Reply-To: Phil Moore Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Subject: Re: Organic honey is real in Europe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit do the Europeans have any restrictions on apiary location. You > know...like we do. Bees must be 2 miles from population centers of 3500, > state roads, active farms, dumps, golf courses, etc, etc? Hi I'm an organic veg grower in the UK my bees cannot be classified as Organic as they need to be situated in the centre of a 2mile radius of organic land (or virgin territory). As far as I know their are no certified organic beekeepers in England, I suppose it may be possible in some parts of North Scotland with very large organic upland farms but I am not aware of any. The rule in the EU are the same across all the countries. Regards Phil Moore -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 23:31:14 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Township officials ordered him to remove his hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Slade wrote: According to my dictionary 'agriculture' is the art and practice of cultivating the land. The beekeeper is doing nothing to the land. It would be a pity if the beekeeper were to lose his home apiary through the ignorance or dyslexia of officialdom. Nice try, but I suspect that officialdom will prefer a wider definition - such at that at dictionary.com: 'The science, art, and business of cultivating soil, producing crops, and raising livestock; farming.' Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:51:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: george fielder Subject: Re: Township officials ordered him to remove his hives In-Reply-To: <2d2.54596c6.3151da5f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Chris and all Notwithstanding the dictionary definition of agriculture, the Canadian federal government defines the production (as opposed to the manufacture) of food to be farming. Thus I have been a farmer once they figured that, if I did not give away all my honey, I was in business. The bad side is that bees are thus farm animals and thus subject to all bylaws prohibiting farm animals.(while allowing allowing exotic pets such as pit bull terriers and boa constrictors). The good side is that losses can be deducted from my other income. The humorous side is how this was determined. They spent hours phoning and phoning me - and perhaps other beekeepers, trying to figure out a farmer could earn a reasonably income without tilling ANY land. Okay they decided I used land. Sure I said just as my car does it parks on land. Aha you DO use land. I use land for my house exactly as I use land for resting my hives on.. How many acres? Well I gave up and told her to phone back tomorrow. At that time I had less 20 hives so I calculated the size of the footprint of the hives and paths over which I carried the honey. What can you till THAT with? I don't know I have never tried! But you farm! So YOU say. Well you make an income farming. So you say, because I had a hobby keeping bees and selling the honey to cover costs. Impasse! A few days later She and her supervisor called. Sir, on your income tax form you filed, we have to show how much land you tilled. I don't till any land, just like my friend a little north of me. He keeps free range cattle for beef but tills nothing. He's a farmer for he raises cattle for food, like a dairyman. You raise animals too to produce food. So you are a farmer to. Your animals are bees. Not insects. Insects are in the animal kingdom not the plant kingdom. If you say so but that does not mean that I till any land. Some weeks later, another phone call. How much land do you use? I told them I had already provided that and gave it again. He told me to send in a correction and sign it. I told him I would not sign my name to something untrue. The line asks how many acres I tilled. He gave up. The farming tax return now requires me to specify how many acres I own as well as how many I farm. Bottom line I guess that in Canada Bees are, by federal jurisdiction, farm animals. These crazy Canucks, eh? CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: Perhaps the township officials should be informed that bees are not 'agricultural' but 'apicultural' and so are exempt. According to my dictionary 'agriculture' is the art and practice of cultivating the land. The beekeeper is doing nothing to the land. It would be a pity if the beekeeper were to lose his home apiary through the ignorance or dyslexia of officialdom. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:47:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: Re: almond pollination/suffering from independent philosophy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >California beekeepers are overpaid in my opinion if one considers the = cost and risk involved with bringing bees from far away areas. My God, I don't know where to begin. =20 How many of you have kept bees in California all year around?? Your = licensing, insurance, fuel and living expenses is extremely higher. = Just ask Duane from Mann Lake, who just moved from Minnesota to manage a = new store in Woodland, CA. They told me they would have to sell 3 or 4 = ranches in Minnesota just to buy a house in Woodland. The median house = in Woodland is $525,000 and up. How many mid-west homes in town average = that? If I had to replace my shop and home at today's appraised value, = it would be over 1.3 million. I don't see many mid-west keepers having = that obstacle. All beekeepers, in my opinion, earn 100% of what they = bring in. To say that some are overpaid is a ludicrous statement. Keith Jarrett Jackson, California -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 10:06:05 +0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: PO Gustafsson Subject: 8 or 9 frames in 10 frame honey box ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The reason I use 8 frames in honey supers: With 8 frames there is bee space between sidebar shoulders, no burr comb built. Using 9 frames you have to scrape side bars if using frames in brood nest. It can also cause problem in uncapper. In general it gets harder to work boxes with wax between shoulders. You can't slide frames easily when blowing bees out. With 8 frames there is one bee space less = more honey in box. 9% less investment in frames and foundation. When uncapping usually is determining the speed of extracting, you are looking at 9% faster extracting too. Over time this will mean considerable amount of money in saved labour cost. When frames are properly drawn out you can set the uncapper knives wider and leave more wax for the bees to start from next time. And don't worry about spacing frames out, after a week putting boxes on hives you got it in the fingers and it's done without thinking. It takes only a few seconds per box. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson pogust@gmail.com http://beeman.se SKYPE:beemansweden -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 00:50:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Chuck_Norton?= Subject: Re: Township officials ordered him to remove his hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 Peter Borst wrote: "http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/regional/s_434924.html After 15 years of working with honeybees at his Marshall, PA home, master beekeeper Bob Jenereski has been ......ordered him to remove his 16 hives or face fines of up $500 a day." To the List, I suggest that those who may want to get involved in rescuing this situation search the BEE-L archives. I believe that in the past we helped persuade the officials in one or two situations including a particular case in Aurora, Colorado which had concerns of Africanized bees as a defense which helped the beekeeper keep his bees. If I remember correctly several from BEE-L made contributions to the local Aurora, CO newspaper citing the need for honey bees and with help from beekeepers all over the prohibition was canned. Once again this can come to fruition! I also offer the following for your consideration quotations in partiality from the State of Florida’s Agriculture Commissioner, Charles Bronson as was printed in “News For South Carolina Beekeepers, February 2006 Vol. 17, No. 1 which listed as the source, “The Florida Beekeeper” Newsletter, January 2006. The text in partiality follows: The “News For South Carolina Beekeepers began, “Chief Apiarist Jerry Hayes sent a letter to all county managers in Florida under the signature of Florida Agriculture Commissioner Charles Bronson, which contained the following derived from press releases and other information:” ‘It has become clear that the African honey bee population has gained a foothold here and will continue to grow in Florida due to its numerous pathways into the state and the lack of effective eradication products or techniques…’ ‘paragraph omitted…’ ‘One of the fundamental rules of nature is that competition for food and nesting resources keeps insect populations in check and low. If not handled properly, gentle honey bees will be artificially excluded from an area which would create an un-natural biological void or empty space in the environment. Being so closely related to gentle managed honey bees, AHB’s would then fill this void because there would be no competition for food or mates and they would flourish.’ ‘In order to deter such an environmental void, of major importance to the long term mitigation of the AHB is to maintain managed honey bee colonies in and around urban/suburban areas. Therefore, we are urging municipalities to encourage Registered Florida Beekeepers to place their gentle honey bees in those areas in the greatest numbers possible.’ ‘Large populations of European honey bees managed by beekeepers are probably our best defense against African bees, “Dr. H. Glenn Hall said. “The European honey bees compete with African bees for food sources. When they inter-breed with the African bees, their defensive stinging behavior is reduced.”’ ‘We would strongly encourage you to support and embrace Registered Florida Beekeepers in your community. They are a major part of the solution in lessening the negative impact from AHB’s and are a vital component in the successful production of fruits, vegetables and nuts that feed our growing populations.”’ >From the archives: "WHEREAS, the City Council of the City of Aurora, Colorado has found that honeybees can be maintained within populated areas in reasonable NOW THEREFORE, BE IT ORDAINED BY THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF AURORA, COLORADO" I am sure that much more can be found nowadays and that the threat of AHB is far greater now than ever: Anywhere in the USA as migratory beekeepers spread the AHB like the SHB has been spread and unscrupulous queen breeders ship their AHB queens all over the US. Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm 330 Irvin Street -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 08:09:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: Lasars Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Jerry, I always enjoy your informative posts. Just out of curiosity what wave length are the lasers. Are they way up in the range of high impulse Doppler? Would they in any way interfere with honeybee vision? Mike -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 06:38:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Beeswax Component Useful for Treating High Cholesterol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Isolation of Long-Chain Aliphatic Alcohols from Beeswax The Journal of Supercritical Fluids, Volume 37, Issue 2, April 2006, Pages 173-177 Abstract: Aliphatic alcohols of chain lengths of 24–34 carbons have been found to be beneficial in treating hypercholesterolemia. Approximately 40% of beeswax is long-chain esters which can be transesterified in supercritical carbon dioxide to give these alcohols and fatty acid methyl esters… [NOTE: Hypercholesterolemia is a disorder that is characterized by an extremely high concentration of cholesterol in the blood and cells.] See Apitherapy News: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 08:52:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: wax moth lure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, has anyone had any experience with the PheroTech wax moth lures? Who sells these in Europe? Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 08:59:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Champlain Valley BA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, is anyone on this list going to the above meeting on April the 22nd.? Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:40:53 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Fischer Alchemy Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. > I believe if all they have to do is print the > word "organic" on their label No, there's quite a bit more to it than that for anyone packing any organic food product. > Paper trails exist of packer purchase of "local honey" & > "organic honey" but many packers label many many times > the amount they buy It would take some pretty awe-inspiring ignorance to think that organic producers and packers are not expected to keep an end-to-end paper trail and withstand audits. > as both because there are no label police. > They are on the honor system. Reading the actual organic regulations may provide a different perspective, as would speaking with any of the authorized certification entities. We are slogging through the process of getting a USDA green dot for a USDA Organic version of Bee-Quick, and while most of the requirements set out in the USDA Organic program certainly are the most pointless scheme to pop up since someone bolted two wheels to a pogo stick and called it a Segway, they are very very picky about not only having a paper trail, but making you show that the numbers add up, down to the number of bottles in each batch, and the amount of ingredients acquired to make that batch. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:51:18 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: [BEE-L] Organic honey is real in Europe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eu rules for organic exclude effectivily possible contaminat sources. Motorways, industrial areas, cities, waste dumps etc. are excluded from 2 mile radius. But Phil was not right stating that the area must be natural forest or organic farmed area. It can also be normal farmland that is farmed according to special rules (EU rule 2078/92). These rules limit the amout of fertilizers and chemical plant protection in fields. In Finland this makes a big difference as most of the farmland is farmed according to this rule. The farmers get subsidy money for this nature saving farming practice, and in this country most are willing to do it. This ruling made organic beekeeping a viable possibility for me too. I have not used it before but now I am considering to change for organic production.. I have read comments from USA that the local honey is selling as good as organic. It's about the same here when selling directly to customers. But I sell more honey through the shops and I can not meet most of my customers. In shop the organic label could be worth the expense. Expence is by the way mostly from the demand that winter food must be organisc honey or organic sugar. The organic sugar is about 30% more expensive than normal sugar. Organic honey is about 20 % more expensive in the shops. But the price differense has been going down, just like in comments from organic prices in USA. Ari Seppälä Finland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:46:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. Comments: To: bee-quick@BEE-QUICK.COM In-Reply-To: <000301c64de8$88478de0$640fa8c0@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: >>I believe if all they have to do is print the >>word "organic" on their label > > > No, there's quite a bit more to it than that for > anyone packing any organic food product. Agree if the produce is under USDA standards, but honey is not, at least so far. You can have organic on the label, but not USDA organic if you meet the criteria for organic (which is currently fairly loose when you are not under a standard). Honey fits easily under the non-USDA label. The key here is the difference between plain "organic" and organic under the USDA seal. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 18:21:09 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Fischer Alchemy Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: <4421C5CF.1080102@suscom-maine.net> > Agree if the produce is under USDA standards, but honey is > not, at least so far. You can have organic on the label, > but not USDA organic if you meet the criteria for organic > (which is currently fairly loose when you are not under a > standard). Honey fits easily under the non-USDA label. > > The key here is the difference between plain "organic" > and organic under the USDA seal. Bill is addressing the specific case of the USA here, and so will I. I have no idea what the story is in other countries, and I am pretty certain that if anyone ever tries to think about "organic" from a multi-national perspective, their head will explode. But Bill, that's a VERY creative and highly entertaining interpretation of the fairly clear wording of the Organic Foods Production Act of 1990! At the simplest level, one can read the National Organic Program FAQ here: http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/FactSheets/LabelingE.html Which says: "A civil penalty of up to $10,000 can be levied on any person who knowingly sells or labels as organic a product that is not produced and handled in accordance with the National Organic Program's regulations." In the actual text of the OFPA, 7 USC 6519 Subsection 8, addresses this clearly in the section "Misuse Of Label", with almost the same wording: "Any person who knowingly sells or labels a product as organic, except in accordance with this title, shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $10,000." So, in the USA at least, the OFPA has reserved the term "organic" exclusively for product's certified to the OFPA's standards or equivalent standards, REGARDLESS of what "seal" might be used. Several things follow from that: 1) To sell or label as "organic", you have to be consistent with the OFPA and its implementing regulations. That means if there are no standards developed for a specific product as yet, one still must follow the intent of the regulations as a whole, and be "in accordance" with the regulations. This is what the various alternative certification programs are doing, as best they can. 2) As the alternative certification schemes are being issued by groups who are ALSO authorized by the USDA to certify producers, packers, and handlers as "USDA Organic", it should be fairly clear that they would rather avoid having the USDA get all medieval on them over playing fast and loose with the "intent of the regulations" for the cases where someone wants to be "certified" for a product not yet overtly addressed by the National Organic Program. 3) A violation therefore has to do with the (mis)use of the term "organic", not merely the (mis)use of the USDA seal. Its not clear if this would be $10,000 per jar of honey or $10,000 per conviction, regardless of the number of jars having the word "organic" on the label. Its also not clear if the USDA itself has any interest in enforcing the clear wording of the laws on the books, given that they have delegated the bulk of the actual enforcement to the states. It will be interesting to see this play out, but I can't say for sure if any actual enforcement will result. I never make predictions. I never have, and I never will. :) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 17:03:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. Comments: To: bee-quick@BEE-QUICK.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, > as both because there are no label police. > They are on the honor system.(packers) Jim said: Reading the actual organic regulations may provide a different perspective, as would speaking with any of the authorized certification entities. Please email an entitie which can stop the label abuse problem. I tire of wasting my breath on entities which can not police what they push! So far all my attempts have failed. None seems to have any power other than making a phone call to the packer. He lies and end of story. I know of a packer which has refused to pay the honey board. The rest of us pay! So far the honey board has done nothing. Nada! Zero! Should the rest of us refuse to pay? What audits? Paper trails are for people trying to go through honest channels to get a USDA or certified label. I am talking about packers simply having a label printed with local, raw or organic on it. Does the consumer know the difference between USDA or certified and "organic". I don't think so! I think standards to improve our food supply are great but without label enforcement are worthless. Why should a person pay a huge fee to be certified organic and jump through hoops when all you have got to do is get a label printed organic and leave out the USDA part as Bill says? I have discussed at meetings all of us using the organic label ( not certified or USDA). How does the thought grab you USDA organic people? I had to add "natural" to my label because a local beekeeper put "natural" on his label and was telling consumers if "natural" was not on the label the product could contain corn syrup. I got tired of the "natural" question so printed new labels with the word "natural" I will donate a penny a pound for every pound of honey sold to a new "label police". Lets put some teeth into label enforcement! Lets hire Chuck Norris to head the organization! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 07:36:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. In-Reply-To: <000001c64e07$4eba5610$640fa8c0@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > 1) To sell or label as "organic", you have to be consistent > with the OFPA and its implementing regulations. That means > if there are no standards developed for a specific > product as yet, one still must follow the intent of the > regulations as a whole, and be "in accordance" with the > regulations. This is what the various alternative > certification programs are doing, as best they can. I agree, and that is what I was talking about. Produce that does not have their own standards cannot have a USDA seal. However, the over all USDA standards are much less stringent than the proposed standards and most of us can meet them. Hence, until honey standards are in place, quite a bit of honey will meet the "organic" criteria. Not so with the proposed honey standards. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 07:36:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron Bogansky Subject: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well at least one large US packer is offering organic honey, USDA "green la= bel" and all. At almost $12 a pound that beats the price of "local" honey. = I have not seen in on supermarket shelves yet. Their ad states:=20 =20 "Our USDA certified organic honey is produced by organic certified beehives= . These special beehives are located in regions where the honey bees can fo= rage for nectar from various wildflowers, that are free from herbicide or p= esticide applications. Enjoy this unique gift from nature!" =20 Don't know where they are actually buying it from. =20 http://www.dutchgoldhoney.com/store/product.asp?dept%5Fid=3D1&pf%5Fid=3D60&= mscssid=3DR8QKBD2KX4KP9NLMP1TS821AJHMF9F25 =20 Ron _________________________________________________________________ Search on the go: Try Windows Live(tm) Search for Mobile beta http://www1.imagine-msn.com/minisites/mobile/Default.aspx?locale=3Den-us= -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:23:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Organic Honey Certification Impossible in U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I think the discussion between Jim and Bill is fascinating. I also thought that it was technically illegal to label honey as organic and think I now understand that it is only illegal for the label to say "USDA Organic". Wow, that distinction is going to be lost on all but a small segment of the buying public. We had a guy near here in upstate NY who was labeling his honey "Organic", and it was selling in at least one market at a substantial premium. And I do mean 'selling'...in pounds it was outselling any other honey the market was selling. My understanding is that one of the competitors complained to the NYS Ag. and Markets department and this complaint quickly led to a label reprint, without the word 'organic'. Since, the honey prices fell to 'normal' level= s and so did his share of the market's sales! I have no idea what NYS Ag. and Markets said to the guy to get him to chang= e his label. I second what Bob Harrison said in that with packers firmly in control the NHB will do nothing to reduce the ability of importers to sell honey at premium prices. The ABF seems helpless...and perhaps that is because 'we' will not give them the financial support they need. I seriously doubt that anything will occur at a Federal level that will put any teeth into the ability to differentiate honey whether by variety, processing methods, or production conditions. I think it much more likely that regulations and enforcement can come about at a state level, but that will take leadership. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:03:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ron & All, I believe Dutch Gold is the largest packer in the U.S. (if not close to). Can you see the profit level if a pound of 60 cent honey got accidently placed in a jar of $12 organic honey. Also I would bet the Dutch Gold "organic" honey has been processed by Dutch Gold. Heated & pressure filtered. Taking the organic issue in front of packers was never smart as one can see by Ron's post. They want the whole market. We can't compete except on a small local level. Which we had (as Bill pointed out)before the idiots wanting to make a federal case went public. I doubt Dutch Gold has a buck twenty invested in the "organic honey". Japan has shown America how to sell high until the market softens and then sell reasonable. Exactly what Dutch Gold is doing in my opinion. Notice nothing is said about the Dutch Gold "organic" product except the word "organic". EXACTLY LIKE I SAID ON BEE-L SEVERAL YEARS AGO IT WOULD BE DONE BY LARGE PACKERS. All they want is the word. At our market a long time certified organic grower got fed up with the local organic group. He was an organic farm inspector for years. He is not saying what upset him.\ He now has a huge sign on his truck and banner which says : " biodynamic" A step above organic Could our next move be to Biodynamic honey ( a step above organic honey)? or Working our bees according to the Farmers almanac dates. I believe the above former organic inspector saw violations being done in organic farming and was pressured to look the other way. So he quit. I think using the word biodynamic is to prove a point to his former organic grower buddies. They don't talk now and they used to always be talking. Our booths are across from each other but he is smart enough to know to keep quiet if he wants to keep what happened secret. So far he has kept his secret but as time goes on I expect he will tell the story and we all will know what happened. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:34:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Lasers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:09 AM 3/22/2006, you wrote: Mike asked about our lasers: The current lasers are in the infra-red. Neither these lasers nor the stronger, green laser that we used at Ft Leonard Wood had any effect on the bees -- they flew in and out of the beam with no obvious response -- we've never seen any evidence of problems with their vision, orientation, increased mortality, traffic through our counters -- things we were concerned about. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:53:11 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Organic Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Could our next move be to Biodynamic honey ( a step above organic honey)? I think the label will need to state explicitly that biodynamic is a grade better than [pasturized] organic. Most of the public will not know this. I guess raw = biodynamic? >>I believe the above former organic inspector saw violations being done in organic farming and was pressured to look the other way. The handling of organic produce also needs to be organic or at least hygienic. A person can get sick from ecoli consumed with unwashed organic sprouts, for instance. Pickers and packers often go to the bathroom without washing their hands... A lot of restaurants will serve unwashed organic sprouts not knowing better. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:38:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Breeding varroa resistant bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There is a four part article in the "Bee Improvement" magazine. I assume that not a lot of people have access to it. It contains a lot of information and I wish it were more widely available, since it is an excellent summary. comments from researchers: The authors are to be congratulated and commended for having compiled a comprehensive document detailing all aspects of the problems of producing and maintaining varroa resistant honey bees. It was a monumental undertaking since it required a survey of all pertinent scientific literature worldwide. ... Our research has shown that feral colonies are not as resistant as our colonies specifically bred for resistance -- Dr Eric Erickson It is possible, though I have not seen any good research on this, that cell size would reduce the number of total offspring the mite produces. It would be a great thing to do! ... It seems from your report you favor the cell size method for selecting bees for resistance. I will say that 'the jury is still out' from my perspective. As for the Lusby's experience: I have not seen any confirmation that the Lusby's bees are actually European bees (not Africanized bees, which are very resistant to the mites on their own) -- Dr. Marla Spivak -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:16:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I talked to a guy who knows about organic certifications. He suggested tha= t Dutch Gold is importing the honey they are claiming is certified. Of course, there is nothing wrong in doing that...and there is no requirement that USDA certified organic need be limited to US produced. Interesting. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:59:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Organic Honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ron Bogansky wrote:Don't know where they are actually buying it from. http://www.dutchgoldhoney.com/store/product.asp?dept%5Fid=1&pf%5Fid=60&mscssid=R8QKBD2KX4KP9NLMP1TS821AJHMF9F25 I imagine there are areas in the plains of Canada that are not in the areas being affected by pesticides, herbicides, any-kind-of-cides. Also, there are the more remote valley areas in the western mountains. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 21:46:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Don't know where they are actually buying it from. My guess would be Argentina or Brazil. The organic certification would be simple to get for those countries beekeepers if you knew which palm to grease. The "organic honey" could come in with D---- G---'s regular shipment of honey. I doubt China as China has no "pure honey" standards although some Chinese are trying to get standards set like we have in the U.S.. You can legally sell honey cut with fructose in China. All packers want is to be able to use the word "organic". Did members of the "organic honey" movement really believe packers were going to sit by and watch you steal their market and spread the word that their honey is inferior? Packers will each have an "organic label" in stores if things go as planned. They will still sell regular honey but will want to control the "organic honey" market. They will set the price in stores. The packers will toss organic beekeepers the small niche markets and farm sales in my opinion. The organic label could give packers the entrance into U.S. health food stores they have wanted for a long time. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 22:15:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Canada has AHB - Such is the risk? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Living and beekeeping 11 miles north of the USA/Canadian border (on the northern side) in Manitoba - it seems to me that there is somewhat an increased risk of having AHB genes being introduced into my bee stock. I have bees that collect nectar from Canola plants on the south side of the line and I presume that the inverse occurs from US colonies present in North Dakota. Since bees are transported down from ND to the almonds in California, moved over to Texas for further colony "development" then brought back up to the canola, the AHB genes are going to be eventually moved north. What are the thoughts of others in this position? Regards, Peter Still 20 cm general snow cover and temps. hovering around zero celsius as a daytime high. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:22:39 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Breeding varroa resistant bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Peter You wrote about "Bee Improvement" magazine... > I assume that not a lot of people have access to it. It contains > a lot of information and I wish it were more widely available There is no restriction on the supply of "Bee Improvement", it is available by subscription of £15.00 (currently) per year, paid in January. Further details are available from the Honorary Membership Secretary, Brian Dennis. Send your subscription as a cheque, PO, or International money order (in £ UK pounds) to: Brian Dennis, 50 Station Road, Cogenhoe, Northampton, United Kingdom. NN7 1LU Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:14:40 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Low-cost honey drying equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am researching low-cost methods of removing excess water from honey = after extraction for small-scale beekeepers in southern India. The = reduction required is from around 23-24% down to around 19%. I remember = seeing a picture of a device using rotating disks in a tank to lift the = honey and expose a large surface area so that it could be dried using a = dehumidifier, but I have been unable to find a references to it now. If anyone has any knowledge of this, or other low-cost, low-tech methods = then I would be grateful for information. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 07:19:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike in LA wrote: I recently posted some of the websites I found pertaining to Fluvianate. Those websites were all about the many pesticides that exist out there. Some of them are more persistent than others and when one thinks about it, in the old days of DDT ,PCB, dioxins etc they were used in specific areas yet are in our entire ecosystem- the Arctic and Antarctic for example. We all know how they got there. Who is to say that any area is pristene only to be deemed so by our detection limits and only if we are looking for all of those "any- kind -of -cides" as was put above. If you make a sale, you've conducted a business transaction involving honey as a product or anything else. "Organic" is a play on words that if defined in todays business world mean PROFIT. Walter Ontario -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 08:09:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Apiarists in the News Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit READ: The Secret Life of Apiarists by Elaine Klaassen Imagine an agrarian urban paradise where people live in multiple-unit, solar-powered dwellings surrounded by a few earth-friendly industries, strategically routed public transport vehicles, foot paths, biking trails, groves of fruit trees, and masses of pumpkin patches, grains and leafy greens. People keep chickens, a few goats, the occasional cow and, yes, honeybees. In the past 15 years, the American bee population has dropped significantly ... Serious apiarists working within our city would contribute to the renewal of the honeybee population. And, of course, their efforts would boost urban agriculture. http://www.pulsetc.com/article.php?sid=2376 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 07:16:56 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Organic Honey Comments: To: Ron Bogansky MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Actually I can see lots of land in pennsylvania being elidgeable for certified organic beekeeping. Most of pennsylvania is virgin land or untouched since big coal mining ended a century ago. Pennsylvania is one of the greenest states I can imagine. -- Scot McPherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ mailto:scot.mcpherson@gmail.com -----Original Message----- From: "Ron Bogansky" Sent: 3/23/06 7:20:52 AM To: "BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu" Subject: [BEE-L] Organic Honey Well at least one large US packer is offering organic honey, USDA "green label" and all. At almost $12 a pound that beats the price of "local" honey. I have not seen in on supermarket shelves yet. Their ad states: "Our USDA certified organic honey is produced by organic certified beehives. These special beehives are located in regions where the honey bees can forage for nectar from various wildflowers, that are free from herbicide or pesticide applications. Enjoy this unique gift from nature!" Don't know where they are actually buying it from. http://www.dutchgoldhoney.com/store/product.asp?dept%5Fid=1&pf%5Fid=60&mscssid=R8QKBD2KX4KP9NLMP1TS821AJHMF9F25 Ron _________________________________________________________________ Search on the go: Try Windows Live(tm) Search for Mobile beta http://www1.imagine-msn.com/minisites/mobile/Default.aspx?locale=en-us -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 08:19:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Canada has AHB - Such is the risk? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: Peter and others In your closing paragraph you finished off with < the AHB genes are going to be eventually moved north.> Most of the Country is concerned. I heard that some AHB genetics have arrived in NY state. That's too close for my liking , since I'm in the Niagara Region. It would be interesting to hear from some of the big US queen breeders how are keeping their stocks clean and are telling the truth about their queen genetics. Probably requeening with our stock is your assurance for your hives. In Ontario Ministerial permits from the Chief Apiarist are required to bring in Queens from south of the boarder. I'm sure the MBA has some info for you on this. The inevitable will happen. It's wait and see relying on people to find what ever solutions there may be. Maybe there will be some good in what is feared to be bad. Walter Ontario -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 07:17:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Canada has AHB - Such is the risk? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, >What are the thoughts of others in this position? Many would like to trade risks of AHB in their hives with you. In time you might see some "hot" hives but in comparison to other beekeepers AHB risk yours will be small in my opinion. I did a common sense article on AHB which will be published in the May ABJ. A very different AHB article. The time for sensationalism is over. Time for a reality check in my opinion. The article was originally set for publication in March but due to pressing issues involving this years almond pollination the AHB article got pushed back to May. In time it is a foregone conclusion ( by most beekeepers) the Africanized bee will successfully and permanently colonize areas of the U.S. below the 35th parallel and most likely move up the east coast as far as B.C.. Time period unknown.10 years? 20 years? 30 years? 40 years? Many are trying to reopen the Canada/U.S. border to hive movement so Canada commercial beekeepers can send hives into almonds. If nothing else permits to let hives headed to almonds enter and return. Looked like was going to happen but now looks like may be blocked because of AHB & SHB in southern California. Which will open a new door. Hispanic beekeepers in Mexico want a permit to enter to pollinate almonds and return. Some Mexican beekeepers are fighting the issue because of SHB concerns.Once SHB becomes firmly established in Southern California then be found in Mexico the Mexican border could open. The talk is of only movement into and out of almonds with permits. Many out of state beekeepers say they are done doing almond pollination after this year. Almond growers are going to find bees for pollination. Many almond growers like the Mexican border solution. The risk of bringing AHB & SHB back to your operation will increase as time goes on. despite the ridiculous attempts by California to control the border points for SHB. Many loads infested with SHB entered undetected this year. One broker kept a separate holding yard 7 miles from his main holding yard for hives infested with SHB. I have said over and over you can not legislate beekeeping pest problems away. You either let hives with SHB in or close the border to all out of state hives. Right now you are simply causing problems for those beekeepers unlucky enough to get stopped. Quarantines did not stop varroa or tracheal mites. Will not stop SHB or AHB. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 08:58:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic Honey In-Reply-To: <002401c64ef5$797fa3c0$23bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > All packers want is to be able to use the word "organic". Did members of the > "organic honey" movement really believe packers were going to sit by and > watch you steal their market and spread the word that their honey is > inferior? It will be interesting to see how this all pans out. From Ari's post the EU standards are more realistic than the proposed US standards. Until US standards are in place, the field is wide open for abuse since the base USDA organic standards are simple and, from what has been posted so far on those using the label, fairly easy to meet. The proposed US standards are, in my opinion, draconian and so strict that they will not be easy to meet. As an aside, the USDA base standards are considered too loose by the organic movement. The base standards are what the USDA defines as organic for all produce and products. They are market driven which tends to drive the purists in the movement over the edge. They start from a simple set of rules and then allow varying degrees of "organic" in the label as the rules are relaxed. That,for them, makes matters even worse since there is only one "organic". From there, there are standards that are in greater detail to fit specific produce and products, like honey, mushrooms and skin care. So there are a host of different standards, some strict and some loose, depending on who has the loudest voice. Which is also the state of the Organic movement, it is not monolithic but comprised of the rational and irrational. Who is rational is left to where you are in the movement. I have many friends in the movement and they are as monolithic in their opinions as those of us here on the BeeL :). Some actually allow the use of sludge on their farms, but they have farms, not gardens. The few who practiced real organic beekeeping are no longer beekeepers. The one who sells "organic" honey used (and still may do so) Apistan and Cumaphose! If the tight standards are agreed on, then there will be few USDA organic labels that actually meet the standards, but that is not to say there will not be many USDA approved labels. So, anticipate an interesting fight over the standards between purists and producers. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 15:00:08 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Low-cost honey drying equipment In-Reply-To: <005501c64f34$253dd220$f4752a50@office> > I am researching low-cost methods of removing excess water from honey > after extraction for small-scale beekeepers Take a look at : http://www.quicknet.se/home/q-119076/BONUS/tork/tork.html (click on the pictures) motor: windshield wiper from a Skoda (from scrap yard) power source from PC; 5 V ( in orderto slow down the motor) plast boxes 50 x 40 x 30 cm air temperature from the fan (1000 w) 40-45 C perimeter speed 2 - 2,5 m/ min able to remove 3% water in 3 hours (you need to ventilate the rom well!) \vov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:26:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic Honey In-Reply-To: <004b01c64f45$3ab81c80$0600a8c0@workstation> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot Mc Pherson wrote: > Actually I can see lots of land in pennsylvania being elidgeable for > certified organic beekeeping. Most of pennsylvania is virgin land or > untouched since big coal mining ended a century ago. Pennsylvania is > one of the greenest states I can imagine. Best thing an organic beekeeper can do with the forests is what the Indians did, burn them down. That immediately makes open space and brambles quickly sprout up. Great for bees and bears. Plus you can plead that you are only doing what the original settlers of the land did. You are in touch with nature. (The same practice was, and maybe still is, in Brazil, for instant clearing of forest.) Or you can go into making Potash and burn the forest down, which the next set of conserves of the land did. Then put your bees in. As an aside, Maine attracts many "back to the land" people, and they were instrumental in closing Maine Yankee, a nuc plant. They were concerned about the impact of all that radiation escaping and killing us all. If you are at all familiar with Nuc plants, the radiation alarms will be triggered by someone walking in with a radium dial watch. Happened to a good friend of mine. The back to land people prided themselves in using wood to heat their homes. Unfortunately, the mid 20th century US nuclear weapons tests resulted in clouds of radioactive dust which settled in the NE US and was taken up by trees. So when that wood is burned, it releases strontium 90 in amounts well above anything that was detected next to to the power plant. I burn wood in the spring and fall. The old Maine Yankee site is downwind of me. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:06:23 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: [BEE-L] Low-cost honey drying equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Some beekeepers here in Finland have been happy with aquarium air pump that pumps air into a tube that is lowered into honey. Air / honey mixture in lighter than honey and it rises up and comes easily 2 -3 cm abowe the surface. On the top of the tube there is a horizontal metal plate. The honey flows back to the bucket as a thin layer on this plate. When a air blower is directed to this thin layer it dries the honey. The moisture content of the air is quite important when thinking about the efficacy. Isolated room with little heating and a air drying machine should make the setup quite effective. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 08:40:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Urgent, Need Help from San Diego Area Beekeeper(s) - for Next Week Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Good Morning: I'm flying to San Diego on Monday, Return to Missoula on Friday of next week. We had planned on testing some of our newest equipment on beehives during our (Univ of MT) spring break. Unfortunately, the beekeeper, we were going to work with, still has all of his colonies in the almonds. We need access to a few hives to test a new hive weighing/bee counter platform, some new solar-powered conditioning trays, and other prototype equipment and methods. We need to find a minimum of 5-10 hives at a location where we can tinker on Tuesday-Thursday. We're more than willing to 'rent' the hives. No harm will be done to them. We originally planned to drive over to Imperial Valley - so we're willing to drive 1-2 hrs. Thanks Jerry J. Bromenshenk Please contact me via my cell phone 406-544-9007 or at 406-541-3160 (8-5 today) Alternately, contact me by e-mail at beeresearch@aol.com. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:22:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron Bogansky Subject: Packer Organic Honey and Labeling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Hello, =20 After sending my post yesterday I traded a few emails with a friend. He me= ntioned seeing Dutch Gold Organic Honey in a local supermarket. The countr= y of origin is Brazil. Bob called that one. It is kind of sad that the co= nsumer is so gullible that, in spite of what someone may tell them, they wi= ll respond to a few buzz words. =20 =20 Pay attention folks, I am about to share one of my all time best marketing = secrets. Follow this and you will be well on your way to riches beyond imag= ination. In order to increase sales you must: =20 1) Leave any morals you may have back at the church or at home, but n= ever bring them to work. 2) Remove all mirrors in you house. Guys learn to shave in the showe= r; you are not that good looking anyway, heck most beekeepers I know are ki= nd of grizzled looking. (Except Bob Harrison, who I still say hires a stand= in for his ABJ photo.) 3) Make sure whatever is in the container, will pass for whatever is = on the label.=20 4) Have a great label. =20 Ok please disregard the first 3 steps. But the fourth is important. My si= ster is married to a packaging engineer. He held the original patient for = a very famous and widely used container. He will always tell you, when it = comes to generating sales, what is on the outside will beat what is on the = inside every time. My sister and nephew run a small business. They buy li= p cream in bulk and repackage it in tubes. They do custom labeling. There= is nothing special about the product itself. It is what the label states;= lip gloss. If I could sell as many jars of honey as she does tubes of lip= gloss, I would be the biggest honey packer in the country. The label is w= hat sells it. =20 Dutch Gold has a really nice label. They are colorful and usually show a p= icture of the flower that is the nectar source. And for at least here in P= A it can be viewed by some as a =93local honey=94. It would be very diffic= ult for any beekeeper I know to be able to have such a variety of high qual= ity labels and still make money. =20 =20 Whether we are willing to admit it or not, most consumers that buy honey, e= specially at the supermarket, will be swayed more by the package than what = is inside. And if the package has a few buzz words like =93organic=94 or = =93raw=94, or a picture of the honey goddess, so much the better. =20 =20 It is also sad but true, that there are many businesses that follow steps 1= and 3 above. Not sure about 2, as they probably don=92t care who they are= looking at in the mirror. =20 One last note. I am not trashing Dutch Gold. They run a nice operation es= pecially with respect to cleanliness and customer service. I have seen a f= ew backyard honey operations that could learn a lot about keeping things ne= at and clean from Dutch Gold. They serve a niche in the food chain and are= successful at what they do. If the customer is happy with their purchase = then DG is doing what they set out to do, filling a consumer=92s need. =20 Ron =20 _________________________________________________________________ It's the future, it's here, and it's free: Windows Live Mail beta http://www2.imagine-msn.com/minisites/mail/Default.aspx?locale=3Den-us= -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 20:37:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Low-cost honey drying equipment In-Reply-To: <005501c64f34$253dd220$f4752a50@office> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 24-Mar-06, at 6:14 AM, Peter Edwards wrote: > I am researching low-cost methods of removing excess water from > honey after extraction for small-scale beekeepers in southern India. Hi Peter At Apimondia in Dublin, booth S9 in the name of "Wilhelm Reus Technik" had the machine you describe. It was not, in my opinion, inexpensive however. Am Schnittleberg 4 Bad Soden Germany, D 65812 49 6196 29252 www.honigtrockenschleudern.de Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 10:27:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron van Mierlo Subject: Re: Packer Organic Honey and Labeling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Ron Bogansky and rest of the group, On Dutch Gold: I had a look at all the pages of the "Dutch Gold" Internet site, since I never heard of them yet but quickly had to come to the conclusion that it completely failes to declare what their honey actually contains and how it was produced. Any possible honey manipulation by the hands of the beekeeper or the Dutch Gold plants themselves seems to be carefully avoided. I have not seen written anywhere either how their honey is tested, by which methods and how often. So I for one would therefore never buy their honey, while knowing also how easy you Americans are about the application of chemicals in your hives against bee pests and diseases. So seeing that so much important information is omitted on the internet site and labels, I presume that Dutch Gold is well aware how revealing and negative such information could be for them. I am against manipulative ways to try and sell honey (or any other product for that matter). For me a label should be an honest representation for the product in the jar and then the product will surely sell! So no misleading expressions, but yes by all means use fine images. Some people are very good in drawing a nice picture that tells the whole story for the apiary where the honey comes from. Of course for a honey distribution center or reseller the personal touch on labels that individual apiaries can apply will be impossible. To Ron B.and your fellow countrymen/women: If your observation is right that you in general go more on looks of the label than what is actually present in the jar, then I can't understand you people any longer. Then even more you would have to demand that the information given on labels is complete and includes a declaration of what it contains and by which methods it was produced, including information on added sugars to keep a certain viscosity. While writing this to mainly you guys out there in the USA, I must admit that I also have objections to how a honey distributor in Sweden behaves. There too I would like to see more tests done on the honey, since it seems that they so far only rely on the results of occasional tests performed by the Swedish food administration service. I other words, much honey is never tested. Futhermore, what do they actually test for? (I sent a request for more information on their testing, but so far no response!). As I understood all imported honey undergoes stringent testing, honey taken from local Swedish beekeepers is only tested by the honey distributor for water content. I'd like to see more stringent tests done even on the Swedish produced honey! Ron van Mierlo Sweden -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 11:03:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Packer Organic Honey and Labeling MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello: This makes good sense, and I agree with you. As a customer, regardless of the product, I only purchase goods that are labeled with clear information as to the contents. Regulations for the labeling process should be in place, and adhered to. I am Canadian, In the province of Prince Edward Island. Canadian grade standards are very stringent. However, in this province, there is another set of controls. It works like this: for honey to be used locally (within the Province) water content is tested for. Labels must be clear whether the honey was produced in PEI, or just packed here. Any honey going out of Province must be graded by the National standards. I have been a hobby beekeeper for about twenty five years, and active in the beekeeping association during that time. I discovered early that I am allergic to beesting, so never developed a large operation. Five years ago someone set up 26 colonies less than 500 yards from my property. Not being sure "how the wind would blow" I gave away my equipment and now only attend the annual meeting of our association, and read this BEE-L for the interest. Eunice Wonnacott Prince Edward Island Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron van Mierlo" To: Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 5:27 AM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Packer Organic Honey and Labeling > To Ron Bogansky and rest of the group, > > On Dutch Gold: > I had a look at all the pages of the "Dutch Gold" Internet site, since I > never heard of them yet but quickly had to come to the conclusion that it > completely failes to declare what their honey actually contains and how it > was produced. Any possible honey manipulation by the hands of the > beekeeper or the Dutch Gold plants themselves seems to be carefully > avoided. I have not seen written anywhere either how their honey is > tested, by which methods and how often. So I for one would therefore never > buy their honey, while knowing also how easy you Americans are about the > application of chemicals in your hives against bee pests and diseases. > So seeing that so much important information is omitted on the internet > site and labels, I presume that Dutch Gold is well aware how revealing and > negative such information could be for them. > > I am against manipulative ways to try and sell honey (or any other product > for that matter). For me a label should be an honest representation for > the product in the jar and then the product will surely sell! So no > misleading expressions, but yes by all means use fine images. Some people > are very good in drawing a nice picture that tells the whole story for the > apiary where the honey comes from. Of course for a honey distribution > center or reseller the personal touch on labels that individual apiaries > can apply will be impossible. > > To Ron B.and your fellow countrymen/women: If your observation is right > that you in general go more on looks of the label than what is actually > present in the jar, then I can't understand you people any longer. Then > even more you would have to demand that the information given on labels is > complete and includes a declaration of what it contains and by which > methods it was produced, including information on added sugars to keep a > certain viscosity. > > While writing this to mainly you guys out there in the USA, I must admit > that I also have objections to how a honey distributor in Sweden behaves. > There too I would like to see more tests done on the honey, since it seems > that they so far only rely on the results of occasional tests performed > by the Swedish food administration service. I other words, much honey is > never tested. Futhermore, what do they actually test for? (I sent a > request for more information on their testing, but so far no response!). > As I understood all imported honey undergoes stringent testing, honey > taken from local Swedish beekeepers is only tested by the honey > distributor for water content. I'd like to see more stringent tests done > even on the Swedish produced honey! > > Ron van Mierlo > Sweden > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 21:41:25 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Organic Honey In-Reply-To: <442401AE.7010508@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>Best thing an organic beekeeper can do with the forests is what the Indians did, burn them down. Perhaps, however pennsylvania is not all deep woods. I have been all over the state having grown up in New Jersey for most of the first 20 years of my life. (past 15 I spent it in several states including NJ, NY, CT, the majority of the time). At anyrate, there is PLENTY of useable beekeeping land. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 00:44:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Packer Organic Honey and Labeling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ron & All, > but quickly had to come to the conclusion that it completely fails to declare what their honey actually contains and how it was produced. Packers only wish the word "organic" or "Pure Honey". I have had endless talks with packers. >Any possible honey manipulation by the hands of the beekeeper or the D G plants themselves seems to be carefully avoided. I would bet that the honey is shipped to DG raw in drums (like all the other honey they get from the area) and then is processed as *all* their other honey is processed at DG. Pasteurized & pressure filtered. >have not seen written anywhere either how their honey is tested, by which methods and how often. I would guess the Brazilian government has given permission to the beekeeper to use the word "organic". Most likely on the honor system. Don't know. I am going to tell the list right now about testing. Testing is expensive and you need to know what to test for. Random is about all there will ever be unless somebody dies or complains. >So seeing that so much important information is omitted on the internet site and labels, I presume that D G is well aware how revealing and negative such information could be for them. Packers only want on the label what they are forced to put on a label. They have got deep pockets and will (and do) fight label reform. They have successfully fought U.S. beekeepers trying to force packers to stop using the generic label with 7-10 countries listed as possible sources for the honey. Labels are cheap in the amounts packers buy. They could easily narrow down the country of origin BUT they want the U.S. listed as a possible honey source in those jars. They do not want to put a jar on a U.S. shelf with only Argentina or China listed as the source. They are required by law to keep track of the batch the honey came from in case of a health issue. They know exactly which country or countries the honey in a run comes from. Changing the country of origin label to say exactly what country the honey came from would be a start in label reform (1st step). Next would be to force packers to put the blend ratio. A common ratio is 8 drums Argentine honey to two drums water white U.S. or China honey. So the label would say 80% Argentine honey/20% U.S. or say China honey. (2 ND. step) > If your observation is right that you in general go more on looks of the label than what is actually present in the jar, then I can't understand you people any longer. The general public has little else to go on. At least the public is beginning to read labels! The National Honey Board passed out bumper stickers at the meeting I attended last year saying to "read the honey label". I teeny weenie baby step in stopping label problems. I voiced my opinion loudly and doubt I will be asked back. > Then even more you would have to demand that the information given on labels is complete and includes a declaration of what it contains and by which methods it was produced, including information on added sugars to keep a certain viscosity. Demand has not worked so far. > (I sent a request for more information on their testing, but so far no response!). Welcome to the club. A court order is about all that will work I am afraid. About the only way we find out what actually goes on behind closed doors is when a disgruntled employee quits or is threatened will jail time and turns witness. Sure there are plenty of honest packers and they should not take the rap for the dishonest ones but none of the packers I have talked to want label reform EXCEPT the packers only selling U.S. honey. Step 1 & 2 above would cost packers selling foreign honey sales in the U.S. big time. Many people realize U.S. beekeepers are on the ropes in a fight to survive. Most Americans will buy U.S. honey if given a choice to help U.S. beekeepers . However one packer has "product of the U.S." on his label and his employees say differently. No label police! When U.S. beekeepers are out of business maybe China will send hives to pollinate our crops. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 08:31:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: bee-l on the web MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All: This message might only be of interest to a few, but I would = respectfully ask that the kind people who moderate this list consider = returning to a weekly rather than monthly grouping of postings on the = web. If one uses the view button which organizes the posting = chronologically then this does not matter. But if one likes the default = presentation (by subject line), and I do, then having a whole month of = postings to scroll through is way too much, but a week's worth is good. To posters, I might mention that changing anything in the subject line = (even just a capital) causes a split in the grouping of postings on a = subject. It would be better if this was only done when the nature of = the subject is shifting. Thankyou moderators and Aaron Stan -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 08:19:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: What marketing tools do you use? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to all: During this last period of "Organic" discussion I began to wonder if it was organic bashing driven by fear or just ignorance as in the lack of understanding what marketing is all about. Fear was evident when comments came through about "them" wanting the entire market etc. Yet others pointed to the unique labeling that was being used to sell the product in the container and very elaborate websites. The pie as it is termed is only so big and everyone wants a slice of it no matter how big or small you are. How you elbow your way into the picture is how you get your piece of the pie. Necessity is the mother of invention and ingenuity is part of that. How far you stretch it is up to you. And to work your way through you need in todays terms, marketing tools. Unique labels,descriptive wording, a very different but yet the same product , etc. Let's give credit where credit is due. What marketing tools do you use to sell your Honey . Perhaps others will learn from your experience. Walter Ontario -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 23:33:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: irwin harlton Subject: HONEY PRICE ON THE RISE? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C65064.7DE7C210" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C65064.7DE7C210 Content-Type: text/plain; name="warning1.txt" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="warning1.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.417 (Entity 5.417) WARNING: This e-mail has been altered by MIMEDefang. Following this paragraph are indications of the actual changes made. For more information about your site's MIMEDefang policy, contact MIMEDefang Administrator . For more information about MIMEDefang, see: http://www.roaringpenguin.com/mimedefang/enduser.php3 An attachment named www.americanhoneyproducers.org.url was removed from this document as it constituted a security hazard. If you require this document, please contact the sender and arrange an alternate means of receiving it. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C65064.7DE7C210 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments: Shortcut to: http://www.americanhoneyproducers.org/ Note: To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs may prevent send= ing or receiving certain types of file attachments. Check your e-mail secu= rity settings to determine how attachments are handled.= -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C65064.7DE7C210-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 10:20:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: HONEY PRICE ON THE RISE? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apologies to the list regarding the=20 "MIMEDefang Administrator . For more information = about MIMEDefang, see:" portion of the previous post on this topic. I thought I extracted the = pertinent portion of the post, which was a pointer to: http://www.americanhoneyproducers.org/ which contains a report of a poor harvest in Argentina. =20 Sincerely, Aaron Morris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 09:57:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: What marketing tools do you use? In-Reply-To: <350.ac10b2.3157eee1@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Zimmermann wrote: > During this last period of "Organic" discussion I began to wonder if it was > organic bashing driven by fear or just ignorance as in the lack of > understanding what marketing is all about. The issue is truth and ethics. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 09:01:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: commercial beekeeping and the honey market MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Unless you have watched the U.S. honey market over the last over forty years develop (like I have done) you have a hard time understanding what is going on. I write what I do not to gain a popularity contest or write what many want to hear but only explain the market. It is true as Ron B. pointed out and has noticed I say things on BEE-L which I would never put in a beekeeping magazine article. You can get lost in the archives of BEE-L so really the importance of the subject is NOW and with those discussing the subject in my opinion. The situation in the U.S. honey market is changing. Prices are not going higher but dropping to lower than ever prices (both bulk & on store shelves ) Packers are asking U.S. commercial beekeepers to sell at or below the price of foreign honey in order to move their honey. The price of foreign honey is below the cost of production AGAIN. Some packers are simply not buying U.S. honey at any price. Most on the list are small hobby beekeepers. Your situation is different with your sales. Small sideliners which have a niche your situation is different. I am not speaking to your situation but to the whole picture of the U.S. honey market as pertains to commercial beekeepers. Many large commercial beekeepers are reducing down into a much smaller operation to survive. Many commercial beekeepers are going back to direct marketing and producing propolis and pollen instead of honey. Added value products. You do what you have to do to survive. A large beekeeper going to his tax office told me by cell phone the other day. "I don't know how much longer I can run my operation at a loss". The situation is very serious in commercial beekeeping circles. Many former large commercial beekeepers have went to keeping a small number of hives and buying and packing honey for stores. Now that store prices are falling to record lows they are seeing they can not compete or even stay within a dollar of large packer pricing (selling foreign honey) so they lose shelf space due to low sales. I had an email from a police officer wanting to know if commercial beekeeping would be the way to support his family after retirement. Investing most of the families savings would be required to start up. What would most commercial beekeepers advise today? Most commercial beekeepers have not had to deal with AHB and SHB yet. Those will be in their future. The liabilities of keeping "hot" hives is going to make it hard to find help, locations and insurance. The price of fuel will continue to rise. Last year in rural Kentucky I complained of fuel at a price around 2.25 a gallon. The store owner said next year you will be looking for fuel in the 2.25 per gallon range. I stopped by last January for his prediction. This year we will be looking for fuel in the 2.50 per gallon range he said. I believe his next prediction for his area will be 2.75 or higher. Our U.S. agriculture is supported by federal subsidies.. The U.S. farmer could not survive otherwise. Beekeepers are denied the help. Wake up your politicians! We are agriculture but get none of the help farmers get YET farmers depend on us in many areas. Only the cream of the crop of commercial beekeepers are left because of beekeeping problems of the last two decades. Once the rest are gone I doubt the U.S. will be able to get young beekeepers interested in beekeeping. My son, son-in laws and grandsons are not interested. Try to sell a U.S. commercial beekeeping business. Once the books are looked at the deal falls through. I see many operations wrote about in magazines. Sounds wonderful. Show me the books! The operations are always expanding with new equipment. Is the equipment being paid for by profits from the expanding business? Show me the books. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 10:32:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: HONEY PRICE ON THE RISE? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I always get a kick out of the AHPA. Always hoping for a miracle to happen (like contaminated honey from Argentina & China ) to save the day and drive prices up. Their last ray of hope was: "China will put in place Pure Honey standards and will become a large importer of honey from the U.S. driving up the price of honey". Could happen but the story was started a couple years ago from AHPA and we are still waiting. From the AHPA site: " Due to the high price of sugar and the low price for honey many beekeepers are leaving honey on for feed" Packers offering prices below the cost of sugar? Tells me the packers are stocked up! Also from the site which may be of interest in the Brazil organic discussion. "The E.U. has banned all Brazilian food (including honey) due to failure by Brazil (government) to IMPLEMENT food monitoring programs" I am sure strict requirements are in place concerning " D G organic honey" . Yea right! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 10:48:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: HONEY PRICE ON THE RISE? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Because of a post on the Florida's Beekeepers site about my comments on BEE-L I will add further as will be cross posted. I do not believe the packer price quote of .83 cents at the New York dock for Argentine honey posted at the AHPA web site. I do not believe U.S. packers are going to move to buying U.S. honey at a buck a pound in the next few weeks ( like the AHPA site suggests). If happens I will gladly post I was wrong and the list can hold me to say so! I believe they are stocked up with foreign honey. A quick call to an employee of a large packer confirmed he is. Bulk prices quoted from packers in our area have run from .45 (unconfirmed by word of mouth) to .55 lb. (confirmed by talks with the commercial beekeeper trying to sell a semi of drums) to talks with packer buyers saying they are offering prices in the .60 - .65 cent range (for water white). If I see an upward movement in packer pricing then I will post. Several of my friends have hundreds of barrels they would like to move as soon as prices move above the cost of production to clear space for the coming crop. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:06:54 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: White fine pollen or pesticide? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The temp was in the upper 40's to low 50's today and the bees where out flying en masse. All looked great but one thing concerned me. For every 30-40 returning bees, 1 would be covered in white dust from the antennae to the tip of the stinger... In addition, some had concentrated dots on the abdomen as well. It occur ed to me the dots could be pollen transfer ed from stamen while the bees were getting to the nectar in some unknown flower. They did not have pollen loads in their leg baskets. Unfortunately, I could not observe the bees longer... My first thought was someone out there was either dusting my bees with pesticide (but how?) or they were wallowing in lime or bone meal spred over vegetable beds... I didn't think bees had a liking for the latter. The dusty stuff looked almost too fine to be pollen. Is there a plant that produces very fine, dry-looking pollen at the end of March in the Northeast? The dusted foragers appeared as vigorous as the other bees. If there is a massive die-off due to a pesticide, I should see a bunch of dead bees in front of the hives in the next couple of days... It'd be a shame - my bees have not looked this good in a couple of years... Has anyone seen anything like this? Thanks, Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:11:55 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Packer Organic Honey and Labeling Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>When U.S. beekeepers are out of business maybe China will send hives to pollinate our crops. Anybody know what races of bees the Chinese keep and how they cope with varroa? Recently there were a couple of articles in ABJ on the nectar sources in China. One mentioned that 'western bees' often died en masse - unlike the Chinese bees - when some nectar source bloomed in very cold weather. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:23:31 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: HONEY PRICE ON THE RISE? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>"China will put in place Pure Honey standards and will become a large importer of honey from the U.S. driving up the price of honey". In one of the last two issues of ABJ, they said the domestic honey market in China was the largest in the world. However, they produce way more than they consume. It will be a long time before the Chinese consumption surpasses their production. China needs to put in place strict purity standards for honey to stop adulteration. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 17:48:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe Subject: Re: Packer Organic Honey and Labeling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "waldig@netzero.com" To: Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 2:11 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Packer Organic Honey and Labeling Waldemar asks: > > Anybody know what races of bees the Chinese keep and how they cope with > varroa? The native bee in China is Apis cerana. They also keep imported Apis mellifera Re varroa, I quote: "The native Chinese bees do not have the same problems," says Dr. Xiaolong Yang, post doctoral researcher in entomology and plant pathology, who raised bees in China. "I do not recall seeing deformed wing bees in the Chinese bee. Chinese honey bees have grooming behavior which can remove the mites from the bees. They get rid of the mites." Source: http://www.biologynews.net/archives/2005/05/17/bee_mites_suppress_bee_immunity_open_door_for_viruses_and_bacteria.html John Howe > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:57:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Patrick Subject: Re: White fine pollen or pesticide? In-Reply-To: <20060326.110655.1466.576208@webmail22.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: "returning bees, ... covered in white dust" I noticed the same thing yesterday, except they had yellow pollen in their baskets. I saw them working skunk-cabbage, but I don't know where the white dust came from. Perhaps it was willow? Patrick near Albany, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 17:18:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Cox Subject: AHB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed With the discussion coming back to AHB's, can anyone tell me if there are researchers, trying to change the AHB? Make it more docile? I'm sure someone may be on this or it may have already been discussed over the years, but humor me and fill me in, will ya? Kathy Cox ~ Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets <http://www.bloomfieldbeeshoney.com> -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:40:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Kathy & All, > trying to change the AHB? Make it more docile? All the researchers I have spoke with are not interested in breeding programs using AHB. In doing research for my last article I went back fifty years of articles on AHB in ABJ & Bee Culture. Some of the predictions of 30-40 years ago by researchers were way off what really happened. Others were right on. Basically I learned a 25% or less AHB is workable. With the higher percent of africanization *usually* comes a higher amount of what the average beekeeper sees as undesirable traits. Aggressive behavior is not the worst AHB trait commercial beekeepers worry about. AHB genetics are a mixed bag. AHB could certainly be improved through selection and instrumental insemination. Most U.S. commercial beekeepers believe the best AHB control is to keep your queen stock free of AHB genetics. Open mating with AHB can (and does most of the time) produce hot hives but your drone stock is still E.U. Once you get AHB genetics in your queen line then your whole apiary will see a rise in AHB undesirable traits within a few generations of AHB drone matings. The three most undesirable known AHB traits for the commercial beekeeper would be constant swarming (up to 16 times a year), absconding ( in periods after a honey flow)and aggressive behavior. Hawaii & Australia could hold the key for AHB free genetics. Some of us are looking years ahead into the future of beekeeping. Others have got their head stuck in the sand. Allen Dick once said on BEE-L about progress. " You can lead, follow or get the hell out of the way" Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:18:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060326171046.01a553b0@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Reading this found it interesting. Apidologie 37 (2006) 1-18 DOI: 10.1051/apido:2005043 Contaminants of bee products Stefan Bogdanov Agroscope Liebefeld Posieux, Swiss Bee Research Centre, Liebefeld, 3003 Bern, Switzerland (Received 22 July 2004 - revised 22 December 2004 - accepted 26 January 2005 - published online 13 December 2005) Abstract - Bee products can be contaminated from different sources. The contamination can arise from beekeeping practices or from the environment. Environmental contaminants are covered in the first part of the review. They are: the heavy metals lead, cadmium and mercury, radioactive isotopes, organic pollutants, pesticides (insecticides, fungicides, herbicides and bactericides), pathogenic bacteria and genetically modified organisms. The second part of the review discusses contaminants from beekeeping. The main ones are acaricides: lipophylic synthetic compounds and non-toxic substances such as organic acids and components of essential oils; and antibiotics used for the control of bee brood diseases, mainly tetracyclines, streptomycine, sulfonamides and chloramphenicol. Other substances used in beekeeping play a minor role: para-dichlorobenzene, used for the control of wax moth and chemical repellents. The degree of contamination of honey, pollen, beeswax, propolis and royal jelly by the different contaminants is reviewed. respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 20:23:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "CN honey@jps.net" Subject: Re: commercial beekeeping and the honey market MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Bob, >Our U.S. agriculture is supported by federal subsidies.. The U.S. = farmer could not survive otherwise. Beekeepers are denied the help. = Wake up your politicians! We are agriculture but getting none of the = help farmers get YET farmers depend on us in many areas. THIS COULD NOT BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. Last year I received subsidies from the N.A.P program & the disaster = program, both signed by Pres. Bush in the farm bill.The average pay out = is about $20.00-30.00 per hive. I run about 1500 hives. 1500 X 25=3D = $37,500, not bad for doing absolutely nothing. It's gov. at it's best, = you don't even have to deposited the check, they wire the funds right to = your bank, better than WELFARE. Bob, Do you know why they only bury beekeepers two feet = deep???????????? SO THEY CAN STILL GET THEIR HAND OUT. >I see many operations wrote about in magazines. Sounds wonderful. Show = me the books! The operations are always expanding with new equipment. Is = the equipment being paid for by profits from the expanding business? = Show me the books.=20 I will invite you to my outfit, some like Randy Oliver have seen inside = its workings. I just got finished putting two thousand full depth supers = together, I have to go over to Mann Lake, in Woodland, and drop the = pre-made wooded frames in. Duane has asked me lately to let him know = when I come calling for 20,000 frames he will have them in stock. I = pre-paid for them, I needed a tax right off, yes some of us have these = problems in this business. Who knows maybe A.B.J will get it right too some day. Keith Jarrett Calif. Naturals cnhoney@jps.net -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 21:27:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: PBS Nature program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I watched an interesting program tonight on PBS concerning venom collected from around the world from spiders (Australian funnel spider) , sea snails , South American frogs. Cures for many diseases were being found such as forms of brain cancer and pain relief. One new pain killer was 200 times more potent as a pain killer than morphine. Insect venom was never talked about. I never realized the number of different properties in venom. Research was even being done on the bite of the tick. Amazing stuff! I have said many times on BEE-L my mother had severe rheumatoid arthritis and my father arthritis. Runs in my family on both sides. I have got no arthritis. Bee venom????? My doctor and I have had this discussion about arthritis and bee stings. He had me blood tested for arthritis to prove his point. The test came back negative. He then said not because of bee stings but because arthritis jumped a generation. ????? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 20:53:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB In-Reply-To: <001c01c6513f$68d7cb00$14bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kathy and Bob, Bob writes: The three most undesirable known AHB traits for the commercial beekeeper would be constant swarming (up to 16 times a year), absconding ( in periods after a honey flow)and aggressive behavior. Reply: I must not be average commercial for not seeing constant so-called AHB swarming. In fact only got 3 swarms in field last year near bee yards. But did take swarms given to us from Tucson. Also dont see absconding after honey flows of any type. But then concerning the two above, we do Housel position our combs now. Stopped most problems of comb drawing out badly, and filling in our desert area, and swarming/absconding it made practically zero. Ran about 900 +/- colonies last year by the way. As for aggressive behaviour, maybe one in 100 we/I split to the four winds, to calm the hive in question down, but consider that normal for anyone. Think local acclimitization and zero treatments/dopes account for much of this. respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 11:16:00 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Honey description in english MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My beekeeper friend is selling honey through supermarkets. The diffrerent supermarkets use a common database for products which contain needed info about the products. How many in a packet, weight, dimensions etc. My friend needs to put a short description to the database about the products also in english. I would like to get your comments about this. There is two produscts First one is chrystalized honey which is soft and easily spread. Would a good name for this be creamed honey ? Second is chrystalized honey which is hard, impossible to take out from jar with a silver spoon. Would s good name for this be 'tarditional hard honey' . I call this traditional because in the past most honey sold in Finland did get hard as beekeepers did nothing to control the crystalization process. Now 13 % of customers prefer this hard honey over liquid and soft honeys. Thanks Ari Seppälä Finland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 01:19:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Almer's Apiary Subject: Re: White fine pollen or pesticide? In-Reply-To: <20060326.110655.1466.576208@webmail22.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I realize that your bees are not working cotton but bees working cotton look exactly as you described at the hive entrance. Cotton pollen is white. I have never seen a bee collect or store cotton pollen. Our local beekeeping association supports Alabama A & M University on honey bee study programs one of which was: "IMPACT OF HONEY BEE POLLINATION ACTIVITIES ON Bt COTTON PRODUCTION IN NORTHERN ALABAMA" http://home.hiwaay.net/~martinb/impact_of_honey_bee_pollination_.htm. The following does not address your question but I find it very interesting: During one of our visits to the experiment field we observed a honeybee fly from a cotton bloom to a cotton leaf. She was near solid white. She held onto the leaf with one leg and was brushing the pollen from her body with her other legs. In summary, you could be seeing pollen on the bees body and no similar looking pollen on the pollen baskets or in the combs. Bob Fanning Huntsville, AL USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 12:51:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Packer Organic Honey and Labeling In-Reply-To: <001201c6501d$50ee8380$9216de18@apartment> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit So, how much clearer can you get than ORGANIC HONEY? Doesn't it say it all? Or are you all just immediately suspicious of Dutch Gold because they are so big and you only see them as the Boogey Man, the Oppressor? If what's on the label doesn't satisfy you, ask the packer. I'll bet they will answer your questions. As long as you go to them as a curious customer, not as a sinical skeptic. I know what some of you are going to say or think but, I've sold honey to McClure's Honey and Maple Products, a subsidiary of Dutch Gold, over the years. Sure, I'd love the price to be better, but the check is always good and at hand ,if I deliver it, or net 30 days. I've never been stiffed or put off with an excuse of, "It's in the mail." They put out a good quality product. Their name and reputation are on every jar. The honey buying public, not beekeepers, will determine if they, Dutch Gold, are successful. Just the way it should be. So, if you want some of the ORGANIC market, produce ORGANIC Honey and bottle it yourself or sell it to a packer who will. Mark --------------------------------- Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 17:06:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ken_Norman?= Subject: California breeding conditions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All, I was informed by a local migatory beekeeper that the queen breeding conditions in California has been delayed by the weather. If this is true, when would the queen breeders of California recommend the queens be ready for shipment to my location in Missouri. Sincerely yours Ken Norman V/P of MSBA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 06:34:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Top Bar Hives in Africa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Browsing through Bees for Development's new on-line brochure (_www.beesfordevelopment.org_ (http://www.beesfordevelopment.org) ) I came across an article and pictures of a group of Senegalese beekeepers building top bar hives, using local materials. The pictures suggest that they are using narrow bars, ie with gaps between, kept apart by castellated spacers. Does anybody know why they would be doing it that way? The bars on my TBH but together and this works for me, but what do I know? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 07:36:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: AHB In-Reply-To: <20060327045330.45903.qmail@web51612.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > I must not be average commercial for not seeing constant > so-called AHB swarming. In fact only got 3 swarms in field > last year near bee yards. But did take swarms given to us > from Tucson. I am confused. Dee, I thought you bees were not Africanized. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 08:43:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rob Harrison wrote: >>>Basically I learned a 25% or less AHB is workable.<<< I think it depends on what you mean by "workable." I had a hive that = tested (FABIS) as having a 12.9% chance of being africanized. Read about = it in "The Hot Hive," April ABJ. I could have "worked" it in a = wilderness and I did keep it around for a month but became afraid = someone would get hurt. I cannot imagine a semi-load of these particular = bees. On the other hand, a friend of mine took a picture in Brazil this = year that is a little perplexing. It shows a Brazilian beekeeper working = a dozen hives in his shirtsleeves and no veil! Down there, they scorn EU = bees as being disease ridden.=20 "A generalization is a plateau for a tired mind." Perhaps it's time = we stopped painting all the AHB with the same brush.=20 Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 08:16:23 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives in Africa In-Reply-To: <2de.4912813.315927e3@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> The bars on my TBH but together and this works for me, but what do I know? Free air colonies are more common in africa, however even in the USA in warmer regions building a TBH like they have with slatted top bars is not big deal. So long as you provide a cover either loose with attic space, or tight to protect from rain and other falling debris, everything should be just fine. However, one of the advantages of closed top bars like you and I use provides an extra layer of protection from defensive bees. By covering the whole hive with solid bars, the bees are much less aware of your presense and so their defensive mechanisms aren't so ready to trigger. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 09:51:53 -0500 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: What marketing tools do you use? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, Well its finally arrived. The new buzz word in marketing appears to be "Artisan". According to USA Weekend's Food section "Good things come in small batches" by Natalie Ermann Russell, gourmet retailers such as as Whole Foods Market and Trader Joe's provide shoppers with "artisan" products, generally, delicacies smaller producers make with much smaller budgets. Ari Weinzwig, co-owner of the popular specialty-foods store Zingerman's in Ann Arbor, Mich. "I'm looking for flavor and tradition and the integrity of the producer". That pretty much sums it all up, don't you think? "The most important way to determine if an artisan food is worth buying is to taste it, which is not difficult to do, because many stores offer samples. " "Artisan foods more be more flavorful, but they're often more expensive too." As I've mentioned before, smaller producers have to SELL their product. Whether its a new catchy marketing phrase or an attractive label, hang tags, point of purchase signs or banners for windows, you can best get your product out the door by offering all of the above and samples. Sam's Club is always giving away samples. Do you think they do that for your benefit? Samples sell.....period. Consumers today are the smartest and most informed they've ever been and yet we still can be stimulated to buy something we don't need or have never used by sight, oral or olfactory stimulation. We are always wanting something "different" to stimulate our senses. As honey producers, we should capitalize on our different products. Have you ever been to a meeting where you have everybody bring samples of their honey gathered from all over the globe? We had one several years ago and had over 100 different honeys and they all tasted different. Some good, some bad, some great but they were all different. So, always offer samples where you can and always be positive in your marketing approach. We have used Cross Marketing as a good tool where you sell Honey Lemonade and Honey Kettle Corn, Honey Fudge, etc. etc. Getting todays busy mom to actually put things together is difficult but if you can show them how to make a product that uses honey and the kids like it, mom knows its healthier than all sugar products, then they may continue to remake and repurchase. We have to constantly educate the buyer today as to why they should use honey. I have family members who still have the honey I gave them a year ago for Christmas sitting in their pantry. Once it's not used daily, it gets put on a back shelf and just sits like the other stuff purchased at the spur of the moment and forgotten. The difference between success and failure is sometimes so small as to be barely noticeable, but it all boils down to effort. You can no longer just put a honey product on the shelf and expect it to move by itself. It has to be sold. You cannot compete with price, and there has to be a percieved value for the customer to pay more. But again, sometimes this percieved value has to only be a small difference. After all with the amount of honey purchased by the average consumer today, paying an extra dollar a pound is not going to break the family food budget. This "artisan" marketing concept is all about the small producer, so get out there and sell. Tim Tucker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 09:57:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Packer Organic Honey and Labeling In-Reply-To: <20060325205118.31824.qmail@web32115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mark berninghausen wrote: > So, if you want some of the ORGANIC market, produce ORGANIC Honey and > bottle it yourself or sell it to a packer who will. The issue here is not making organic honey but "What is organic honey?". The problem is that there are no organic honey standards. Organic honey, currently, only needs to meet the minimum USDA standards. The problem with the US organic law is that it is almost exclusively directed at organic farms and the produce and livestock on those farms. The law spells that out well, but the States are the ones who certify the farms. Since there are no national honey standards, there is a wide spread of opinion on just what "organic honey" really is from State to State. If all you need is State certification that you operate an organic farm, which I do (but not certified), from there it all depends on what the individual State's criteria is for honey, if there even is a standard. If none, you could call your honey organic and be within the law, just because it came form an organic farm. Right now, my guess is that much so-called organic honey does not even meet the law's requirements. Honey is so far beneath the radar, that it will take a bit for bad guys to get caught, especially since standards can vary from state to state. I do not know what the standards are in Maine, and I doubt if many here know what they are in their own State. Which is why a national standard is necessary. But what is in that standard is the sticking point. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 07:34:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB In-Reply-To: <4427DC56.40906@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill: I am confused. Dee, I thought you bees were not Africanized. Reply: I don't think so, being africanized, said so for years. But this thing on swarming, etc and aggressiveness that seems nowadays to be linked to ALL BEES NATIONWIDE is perplexing. I just had to comment, for so many never having seen our bees think they are, yet nowadays I really think newer beekeepers and older ones, figuring the fear factor shows on TV, can only relate bees in general to a category other, in this case AHB for aggressiveness or swarming, without pondering the "why?" it is happening. Change field management for bees to more bee friendly and bees just are bees, except for what man calls/names them. Besides the genetics of bees can be looked at from both the DNA and protein side for what they are IMPOV and few look at the whole picture. But for our area though some complain....like I said, frames in hives correctly can practically make hives non-swarming, along with space for the bees to work. Also localized bees are better in several ways. Lastly, and something to consider: the more the treatments and interaction of such with chemicals intermixing the more aggressive bees get, and this has been written about for years now.........but who talks no dopes/treatments except those wanting clean organics? Just some thoughts to ponder. Also one last note, I was reading information on beeswax and propolis contamination while reading this thread and it ended up here as I forgot to change the subject heading, but still thinking, it does figure into this heading also, for what is contamination for making bees attitudes change? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 09:35:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: commercial beekeeping and the honey market MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Keith, Keith said: >Last year I received subsidies from the N.A.P program & the disaster program, One can assume then there was some sort of disaster in your operation warrenting your receipt of the funds? What sort of disaster qualifies? Might I qualify? > Bob, Do you know why they only bury beekeepers two feet deep???????????? SO THEY CAN STILL GET THEIR HAND OUT. I have heard this joke many times ,never found it funny. The problem with lawyers is they are never in wont of clients. The problem with subsidies is they are taken by many who do not need them. The problem with welfare is many who are able to live without it chose to take it. Why would a self-proclaimed rich beekeeper br getting in line for $37,500 for doing absolutely nothing. What's wrong with this picture? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 12:27:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Traynor Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives in Africa In-Reply-To: <2de.4912813.315927e3@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote:Browsing through Bees for Development's new on-line brochure (_www.beesfordevelopment.org_ (http://www.beesfordevelopment.org) ) The pictures suggest that they are using narrow bars, ie with gaps between, Since we put the PDF together for BfD we are aware that the caption under the pictures indicates that a roof is also going to be used on these TPH as referenced in Scot Mc Pherson's later post: "TBH like they have with slatted top bars is not big deal. So long as you provide a cover either loose with attic space, or tight to protect from rain and other falling debris, everything should be just fine" Michael & Kirsten Traynor www.mdbee.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 19:54:25 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: White fine pollen or pesticide? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'd like to thank all that have written to me re. my observation of white dust/pollen on my bees. Folks suggested the stuff could be skunk cabbage pollen. I am in close proximity to a wooded wetlands where I've seen dozens of skunk cabbage plants. This really put my mind at ease - thanks again! Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 20:22:23 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Skunk Cabbage. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I found an interesting link on the eastern skunk cabbage. An interesting plant indeed. Who knew it raises the temp in its flower to 70F! http://www.inmygarden.org/archives/ecogardening_great_american_perennials/skunk_cabbage/ Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:38:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Viruses and Last Year's Honey (was RE: [BEE-L] "Apistan" honey) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > Judy Chen of the USDA Beltsville Bee Lab has done > quite a bit of work showing that while small numbers > of bees in colonies certainly can and do get viruses > without mites, that the mites spread viruses with > alarming certainty. I thought that Brenda Ball had explained this years ago. We all know that 'small numbers of bees in colonies certainly can and do get viruses without mites'. All of us who kept bees before varroa arrived on the scene saw it with our own eyes; we did not need anyone to do 'quite a bit of work' to tell us that. Indeed, if this were not true, then the viruses would presumably have all died out long ago. Then varroa arrived and colonies began to collapse, but we did not properly understand why. Now we know that the major problem is due to viruses spread by varroa - and we also understand that varroa spreads viruses injecting viruses directly into the haemolymph of the larvae - something that would never have happened before varroa arrived on the scene. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 15:41:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Traynor Subject: Re: PBS Nature program In-Reply-To: <001901c6514e$614441c0$11bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob, Bob's Post: I watched an interesting program tonight on PBS concerning venom collected from around the world ... Cures for many diseases were being found such as forms of brain cancer and pain relief. ....Insect venom was never talked about. National Geographic has done a special on bee venom used to treat arthritis. The program was based on work carried out in Asia, as few doctors seem interested in the research in the U.S.A. The documentary showed a woman, who was completely crippled by arthritis to such a degree that she was bedridden. Her husband started treating her with bee venom stings and she regained the use of her legs. She was so excited because she was able to stand up and cook for her family again. They also showed many other examples, but that is the one I remember most clearly. Bob's Post: I have got no arthritis. Bee venom????? My doctor and I have had this discussion about arthritis and bee stings. He had me blood tested for arthritis to prove his point. I know bee venom is used extensively to treat arthritis, especially in other countries outside of the USA. From what I understand doctors in the USA cannot prescribe it, since bee venom does not come in a measurable dose. Bee venom is also used extensively to treat MS patients. This is more common than using it for arthritis in the USA, because unlike arthritis, there are no effective pills on the market to treat the MS symptoms. There is a woman livng near Annapolis. Her name is Pat Wagner. She has been suffering from MS since 1970. She tried eveything from chemo and radiation to intensive surgery to relieve some of her pain. She was wheelchair bound when she befriended Charlie Mraz, whose book on bee venom therapy (Health and the honey bee) is very easy to digest. Since Pat Wagner started bee venom therapy she is walking again. I believe her story was featured on national television. Her website is: http://www.olg.com/beelady/ I have just received the prestigious German Chancellor Grant to study the cultural history, medicinal benefits and honey marketing of the German beekeeping industry. This grant is normaly awarded to potential leaders with backgrounds in politics, journalism, academia, etc. I believe this is the first time it has ever been awarded for apian research. I will be based at the largest bee institute in Germany in the historic town of Celle for one year. I hope to learn a great deal about the myriad medicinal health benefits of beehive products while I am there, as Germans seem to have a greater appreciation for holistic healing. I will be happy to keep you informed of my research. If you or anyone else is aware of any scientific article about the benefits of beehive products, I would be interested in learning about them. I am interested in directing my research in Germany for the benefit of the American beekeeping industry. Any suggestions or comments are welcomed. You may contact me directly via kstraynor@adelphia.net. All the best, Kirsten Traynor www.mdbee.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:57:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Honey description in english MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Creamed or soft set. Naturally crystallised. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 13:02:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: commercial beekeeping and the honey market In-Reply-To: <001901c651b4$2228cc20$0bbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Since these handouts are public information you can look up to see which of your neighbors are getting them.Have a look: http://www.ewg.org/farm/region.php?fips=06000 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 12:13:22 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: National Geographic Channel "Wild" Program In-Reply-To: <001901c6514e$614441c0$11bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recently, the National Geographic Channel aired a program titled "Insect Wars", part of their Wild series. In the program, there was a segment about "rogue laying bees" and "bee police" in the European honey bee hives. In their depiction, a "rogue" worker begins laying eggs (in what I assume to be a queenright hive) while the "bee police", bees on the lookout for these rogues, inspect the eggs and root out and kill the rogues. I guess I must have missed the sections in the books I've read. I was under the impression that the queen and larva produced phereomones that inhibit workers from laying and haven't ever read about police bees searching for laying workers. Is this artistic license? NG would seem to be a responsible group with credibility. I admit, the show was a lot of "fluff", but am worried that I missed something. I've emailed them, asking what sources they used, but don't hold much for getting answer. Can some wise beekeeper enlighten me, a 2nd year beekeeper with 90 hives? Thanks in advance, Howard -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 17:45:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Jeffrey R. Hills" Subject: Dutch Gold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I sent an email to Dutch Gold asking about the origin of their Organic Honey. Here, verbatim, is the answer I got: Good Day, Dutch Gold's Organic honey comes from remote areas of Brazil and Mexico that have remained untainted. Bee hives are placed in these unspoiled regions that offer the honey bees at least a two-mile radius of "organic" foliage and fauna. Sufficient quantities of domestic honey are limited due to the USDA (National Organic Program - NOP) organic requirements of the two-mile radius as described above. Dutch Gold will not accept "organic" honey without the NOP certification. If you have any other questions, please feel free to contact me, via reply e-mail. Best regards, DUTCH GOLD HONEY Customer Service Administrator 2220 Dutch Gold Drive Lancaster, PA 17601 Jeff Hills Dorset, Vermont -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 19:34:21 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: What marketing tools do you use? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Tim Tucker and then to the rest of the crowd: A sincere thanks for your posting , it's exactly the response I was hoping for. "And ain't it the truth!" I'm a new guy on the beekeeping block but with an education many years ago in chemistry and having spent years in manufacturing and also marketing those products. There's this age old question in industry. Do we produce the product and then try to sell it, or do we go out and get the orders and then fill them. Honey is an industry. I recognized that those involved with honey had the same dilema. I was new at beekeeping but thoroughly understand the problem. It's MARKETING. Niche marketing, branding,etc.etc. Everybody says the same thing about organic honey , so, take advantage and join their marketing bandwagon and give them a run for the money.When in Rome do as the Romans do. I put in a small tasting room just like a winery. I like to call it an Estate Apiary. People who arrive get to sample the product and choose according to their taste. Up to four flavours on tap. The flavours have names on nice clean looking labels to set them apart in the customers minds. We discuss flavour differences, sweetness, acidity, viscosity etc. as they compare one with the other and then choose. This season, they will be able to experience what is termed in wine tasting a Vertical A progression of flavours from a designated hive representing the season as it was brought in in each super. Tim summed it up well in his last paragraph. Walter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:01:20 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Anarchistic Bees . (Was National Geographic Channel "Wild" Program) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howard, This work on "rogue laying bees" (termed "anarchy " by the researcher) emanates from studies on laying workers by Assoc Prof Ben Oldroyd and colleagues at the University of Sydney in Australia. I have heard several presentations on this work and its absolutely fascinating. See http://www.bio.usyd.edu.au/Social_InsectsLab/Ben/Ben.htm and here for on-line publications of the work http://www.bio.usyd.edu.au/Social_InsectsLab/Ben/benpublications.htm Peter Detchon in Western Australia, which has just finished hosting a very interesting and successful 8th Asian Apicultural Association Conference. (An appetiser for the Apimondia conference to be held in Melbourne next year, see www.apimondia2007.com ) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 19:12:27 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: National Geographic Channel "Wild" Program Comments: To: Howard McGinnis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No its not fluff. Research has been done by some bee scientist and I read about it a few weeks ago. I can't remember who or which publication. Summary is about 1 in 10,000 workers is an egg layer in pretty much any hive, even yours. Bees who find these eggs decide to keep them or eat them based on various pheremon levels. The decision has to do with parantage, how close of a sister the worker is and whether the hive is queenless, queenright or raising new queen already. Bottom line is about line survival. If the hive goes queenless and they can't raise a new queen, the hive eventually stops policing..esp. Full sisters will keep each others eggs, 2nd choice is half sisters, and finally any eggs are better than none even foreign eggs. These eggs develop into massive amounts of drones for the DCAs mating with queens to perpetuate the line. -- Scot McPherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 18:20:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: White fine pollen or pesticide? In-Reply-To: <20060327.115444.27535.583291@webmail05.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar Out here skunk cabbage pollen is jet black....is your skunk cabbage same family? Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 19:06:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: California breeding conditions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ken Norman wrote: Hi All, I was informed by a local migatory beekeeper that the queen breeding conditions in California has been delayed by the weather. If this is true, when would the queen breeders of California recommend the queens be ready for shipment to my location in Missouri. Ken Norman V/P of MSBA Ken, Have you looked at the latest issue of American Bee Journal? You'd better ask questions from those CAL queen suppliers before buying. Where are you located? Where are your mating yards located? How do you control the drone population in the area? Do you know how many feral colonies are located within ten miles of your mating yard? AFB drones outperform European drones consistantly and if any are in the mating area, they are the ones who will mate with the flying virgin queens. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 19:16:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: What marketing tools do you use? In-Reply-To: <350.ac10b2.3157eee1@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Walter Zimmermann wrote:What marketing tools do you use to sell your Honey . Perhaps others will learn from your experience. The label I use is very divergent from the standard lable. Because of the nature of its presentation it attracts the attention of the customer. I do not care to share the nature of the lable at this time because the very evident difference is an attractant. If it becomes common then its attractiveness is greatly deminished. Suffice it to say that I thought a long time about the type of presentation I wanted to use, the unspoken message the lable would convey, and how to work up that lable without going to any of the available lable makers. I have a unique product. I market it in a unique, and I hope, and attractive manner. It describes the product, its source, how it is handled, some educational references, and of course, how to contact me to get more. Mike in LA --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 19:27:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: PBS Nature program In-Reply-To: <001901c6514e$614441c0$11bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote:My doctor and I have had this discussion about arthritis and bee stings. He had my blood tested for arthritis to prove his point. The test came back negative. He then said not because of bee stings but because arthritis jumped a generation. ????? Bob Think he put his blinders on. Both my mother and one of my sisters had to have their hands operated on to open them up because of the crippling arthritis had caused. I have some knots on the distil joint on all eight of my fingers. Two fingers on each hand have the distil joint canted inwards. But, and a big but, I have full use of my hands and fingers. I touch type using all ten of my digits and on occasion can type very rapidly. There is only very infrequent discomfort in my fingers (like once every two to three years). I can only present anecdotal evidence, but firmly believe that the little ladies have arrested the development of arthritis in my hands by their occasional stings. I AM a firm believer. Mike in LA --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:48:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Re: AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can certainly second Dick Marrons comment that not all africanized are mean as I worked a few Hives in Paraguay w/my hija who has caught a dozen or so swarms......none were hot. I didnt need gloves and probably couldve gone a significant time w/o veil but didnt push it too much. That isnt to say there werent verified reports of terribly ferocious behavior from others.As an aside, the bees reminded me of large flys. John Horton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 20:18:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Cox Subject: Re: White fine pollen or pesticide? In-Reply-To: <200603270721.k2R7L7QE001577@smtp.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Here, Eucalyptus pollen is white. Kathy Cox ~ Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 03:54:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: National Geographic Channel "Wild" Program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "No its not fluff. Research has been done by some bee scientist and I read about it a few weeks ago. I can't remember who or which publication. Summary is about 1 in 10,000 workers is an egg layer in pretty much any hive, even yours. Bees who find these eggs decide to keep them or eat them based on various pheremon levels." This work has been carried out by Professor Francis Ratnieks and his colleagues at Sheffield University, UK. Dave Cushman is just about to tell us where we may view summaries of his work on line. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 22:57:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tim moran Subject: Re: White fine pollen or pesticide? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I make my own pollen substitute and place it in the beeyard with a bunch of popsicle sticks or little branches for the bees to work from. As the stuff is quite loose, the bees end up mostly covered with it. They return to the hive shamelessly ungroomed. Perhaps a neighboring beekeep is feeding similarly. The bees seem to feed on the loose powder better than patties when I place them side by side. Since they are also homemade, the bees simply may not care for my cooking. Had great success overwintering in poly nucs from Betterbee. Ten of eleven survive, and are into accelerating brood rearing. Most of these were not very large. they consumed very little stores. I am thinking there are advantages to raising late-season queens, overwintering small colonies in these nucs, and having a vigorous, proofed queen to take things through the major nectar flows. By the way, By "late-season" I mean mid August to early September. Without sufficient drone presence, poor mating success pretty much trumps any good genetic traits, doesn't it? Also, I do believe well-mated queens can be counted on later than early September. As Bob Harrison says "all beekeeping is local." I'll add that every year is different, and all good farmers intimately understand their environs. May all of us have a great beekeeping year Tim. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:10:06 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: National Geographic Channel "Wild" Program In-Reply-To: <295.823fb17.315a53b9@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Chris has prompted me to show you the way the 'Taplab'... This is where Francis and his team work, the name is a shortening of Taptonville and laboratory and is used as a shorthand term for both the place itself and the staff as a whole. The main laboratory building is in the experimental botanical gardens (Taptonville Rd., Broomhill, Sheffield, South Yorkshire) A list of papers is available on... http://lasi.group.shef.ac.uk/flwrpub.html The anarchic behaviour, worker policing, dance language and many other aspects of social insect life are studied in relentless detail, by a very dedicated crew, who are listed at... http://lasi.group.shef.ac.uk/who.html The entrance to the Taplab is an un-impressive door in a garden wall, but once inside you are in a haven for bees and plants. Now, I really must work out a way to teach Chris how to use a search engine so that he can find such gems for himself :-) Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 07:12:09 -0600 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: What marketing tools do you use? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Walter Zimmerman, Now that's marketing! Taking your personally produced product and finding a method of inspiring someone else to desire it even more than you do yourself. Honey and wine tasting have alot of parallels and were you to add meads of different varietal or regional sources you might be bigger than Two Buck Chuck. Seriously, you have implemented a great idea there that leads me to further extrapolation and hopefully some fresh insights. Marketing is an "It all Depends" situation as you may have the quality of traffic that would permit this type of product delivery, but I don't in rural Southeast Kansas. One of the marketing terms that has stuck with me for many years is "distinctive competency" and it refers to the unique distinctive resources and capabilities of a company in terms of product sales. The success of a person or company at times is determined by its ability to provide perhaps as Mike Stoops has indicated, a unique label or a new method of product delivery. If the resource has both uniqueness and proves valuable to improving demand then you have achieved distinctive competency as defined. All anyone has to do is to find their market they want to deliver their product to and find new and innovative ways , to achieve distinctive competency in their niche of the market, which is what you are doing. Another successful marketing technique is the polling of customers. Asking those who buy your product why they do so and what their suggestions are for improvement. You will be surprised many times by the quality of the information gathered from this type of product evaluation. Are they attracted to your label? What is the frequency that you purchase this type of product and for what purpose? Are our store hours convenient and the product easily accessable? Most personal sales aren't made by bold statements but rather by asking questions that provoke thoughtful response and involvement of the consumer or buyer. Indirect sales, where we are not present to sell our product require that same ..... involvement.... by the customer as well. They might buy your product, even if it costs a little more, because they saw you on the news or met you previously, or just like your label, but there is a distinctive or unique involvement which can become, with hopeful repeat sales, a continuing ......relationship. If you fail to establish this relationship or distinctive competency then all that's left is price! Tim Tucker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 06:32:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dick & All, >I had a hive that tested (FABIS) as having a 12.9% chance of being africanized. In the May issue of ABJ I show the tools used to do the test. Explain exactly how the test is done. In my opinion operator error could produce a reading of 12%. One quickly sees how complicated the test is to perform. The computer program is set to reject any measurement out of known bee measurement BUT what of measurements which are off slightly? What if slides which are poorly done. What if third segments were disected poorly. What if the comparison AHB sample was prepared poorly or incorrect? I am not saying the percent of Dick's sample is not accurate as it could error on the low side. Read the ABJ article. To simplify aggrssive behavior it can be caused by many things besides genetics which we all know. Skunks and environmental reasons.Also beekeepers dropping and banging frames, constant smashing bees while doing inspections. I call it the Mister Magoo syndrum! All of us have worked hives with a bee masher. Each mashed bee releases venom and temperment changes. I also believe that wax contamination and mites can cause bees to be aggressive. happy bees are less aggressive as displayed by how easy bees are to work in a honey flow. However the genetics which control aggressive behavior researchers talk about are found in most scutellata. Not to say on a beautiful day with a honey flow scutellata could not be worked similar to our bees but bees with AHB genetics can be unpredictable which what the beekeeper needs to be concerned about. The reason for new rules on bee removal being put in place in California & Florida. Your safety and the safety of others. With snakes & spiders we are shown the dangerous can be told from the non dangerous by looks. Not so with AHB. Caution is the word to pass on about swarms today in areas of AHB. Not fear but caution. Dick's hive in my opinion carried the aggressive genes. I have seen these aggressive "hot" hives for many years and from most queen producers but they used to be rare and did not display the other common traits of true AHB genetics. The true AHB hive can carry many queens all laying ( plus laying workers). Many myths exist about AHB. One is the *queen*lays twice as many eggs as EU queens every day. It is true that if you monitor eggs in an AHB hive you might see around 5000 new eggs in 24 hours but researchers now believe those eggs did not come from a single queen. She had help! I do not recommend casting the aggressive AHB hive to the four winds. I recommend (at this point in AHB colonization) depopulating the hive when all bees are in the hive. AHB will become a reality of beekeeping life. Many will quit beekeeping. Others will adjust. Time frame for colonization is unpredictable but Southern California is becoming AHB faster than any place in the U.S. right now. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 06:50:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee & All, > In fact only got 3 swarms in field last year near bee yards. Swarming is a big issue with us as we keep strong hives and try to get peak population right before a honey flow or hives go into pollination. Swarming is what bees do if given a chance. 3 out of 900 seems low on any scale. I think the first thing a hobby beekeeper sees when he/she visits a commercial beekeeper for the first time is the strength of his hives. We farm bees! Fill a box with bees and the bees will fill the box with honey! Swarming is the result when things go wrong trying to raise bees at peak levels and the hive gets crowded and the queen runs out of room to lay. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:17:27 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Ask a 1000 beekeepers the same question and you will get? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope 1000 similar replies. But from my experience it's more like 2000 replies all different. So here's my question to all of you out there in beekeeping land: What method do you use to clean up a dead hive comprised of a broodchamber and a box of honey on it coming out of the winter? What's in the hive is mould on everything including the leftover honey, dead bees, broodcomb. Let's see what similarities and differences you can expound on. Walter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 08:47:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: National Geographic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While doing some research on pheromones I came across a piece of = research being done in either Australia or New Zealand on laying workers = in a queenright hive. What I remember is that it was assumed that 6% of = all eggs laid in a colony are laid by workers but are eaten by the "egg = police." The investigators were way beyond "Does it happen?" They were = looking for the clues (Pheromones) that the police use to find these = eggs. Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:35:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: California breeding conditions Comments: To: Mike Stoops Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Have you looked at the latest issue of American Bee Journal? in Feb ABJ Jerry Hayes said : What are the chances of AHB becoming less Africanized after mating with EHB? Because of accidental and purposeful introductions of AHB into all of the US from queens and packages from the Southwest and West in the last 10 years or so, it is a non-issue [in] our Southwestern and Western states, EHB has disappeared from the wild. Where onces it was the dominant race, now it is gone. [I am surprised no one picked up on this ... pb] -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:50:45 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: White fine pollen or pesticide? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee, >>Out here skunk cabbage pollen is jet black....is your skunk cabbage same family? I know there are a couple of varieties of skunk cabbage. The website I posted yesterday shows the white anthers of the eastern skunk cabbage. The pollen ought to be very light color. I have not looked closely - hopefully will be able this Sunday - inside the flowers by me but the plants by me match the eastern description. I came across another website showing yellow anthers in another variety of skunk cabbage. Bees were flying yesterday again. No dead bees in front of the hives. :) Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 15:04:48 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: White fine pollen or pesticide? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...overwintering in poly nucs from Betterbee. Ten of eleven survive, and are into accelerating brood rearing. I overwintered one queen in a wooden nuc. I also saw few stores consumed and very vigorous bees. I believe a sunny, sheltered location and wooden nucs are just fine. And they stay cooler in the summer. Foam nucs get very hot in our humid climate. >>By the way, By "late-season" I mean mid August to early September. Raising queens in August or September is good by me, too. There is still a decent flow (mostly from Japanese bamboo)and plentiful drones. >>have a great beekeeping year We had a mild winter although the last few weeks had few good flying days. The forecast for this week calls for good building-up weather with temps nearing 60's during the day. I walked in the garden last night and smelled nectar from the hives. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 15:10:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Ask a 1000 beekeepers the same question and you will get? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>What method do you use to clean up a dead hive comprised of a broodchamber and a box of honey on it coming out of the winter? When I lost my first hive, I meticulously took it apart and removed every bee from the last cell with tweezers... These days, I'd put the boxes on a strong hive and let the bees do the job. I think they do it best. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 16:28:19 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: National Geographic Channel "Wild" Program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote: > Chris has prompted me to show you the way the 'Taplab'... Now, I really > must work out a way to teach Chris how to use a search engine so that he > can find such gems for himself :-) Chris is not the only one who could not find it. During the past week or so, my link to the 'taplab' (www.shef.ac.uk/~taplab/) became broken. Despite searches on the university's main site andon Google for 'taplab', 'Ratnieks' and 'lasi', I could only find the broken URL. I suspect that Dave has some inside information! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 17:46:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Ask a 1000 beekeepers the same question and you will get? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >What method do you use to clean up a dead hive comprised of a broodchamber >and a box of honey on it coming out of the winter? 1. First establish why it died - this will enable you to decide whether the combs can be safely re-used. 2. Decide whether the combs are really worth saving - if not, render them down. 3. If yes, consider sterilising with acetic acid - good practice. 4. If possible, give to a swarm - they will make the best job of renovating the comb. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:01:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB In-Reply-To: <006301c65266$45260820$02bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob: Reply: Sorry, but I no longer believe this as pertains to commercial beekeeping. Used to, but no longer since downsizing and repositioning combs in our colonies. We too,try to keep strong hives and let the lesser go in working our outfit back up, while watching more natural trends in brooding, fall-back, and regrowth, which is more pronounced on a natural system. But, in working with unlimited broodnests and building them up prior to our main honey flow, if space enough given above the brood for storage, bees DO NOT swarm of own accord.....they prefer to stay put for the most part, and you'd be surprised at the amount of crowding they can withstand. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:11:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: National Geographic Channel "Wild" Program In-Reply-To: <295.823fb17.315a53b9@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Summary is about 1 in 10,000 workers is an egg layer in pretty much any hive, even yours. Bees who find these eggs decide to keep them or eat them based on various pheremon levels." Reply: This is not new information of 1 in 10,000 workers being an egg layer and in fact a normal egg layer. Archives dating back to pre-1900 go into this laying pattern and names that come to mind are Mackenson, Roberts, Woyke, to name a few. What is new reading for me if more on pheremon levels. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 07:46:51 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Anarchistic bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > While doing some research on pheromones I came across a piece of research > being done in either Australia or New Zealand on laying workers in a > queenright > hive. >From the archives:- "Ben Oldroyd has sent me a copy of his work on the drones above the excluder. The reference for anyone wanting to follow this up is:- Nature Vol 371 27 October, 1994 page 749. It appears in the scientific correspondence section. The title is "Anarchy in the beehive - Benjamin P. Oldroyd, Adam J. Smolenski, Jean-Marie Comuet and Ross H. Crozier" By the way, the queen had mated with at least 12 drones." I was also at the same Asian Apicultural Conference in Perth Western Australia as Peter Detchon and it was certainly very interesting. The laying by workers in queen right hives was more pronounced in Apis cerana. Figures quoted were that 1 - 5% of workers in queen-right cerana colonies had activated ovaries whereas Apis mellifera is less than 0.01%. Trevor Weatherhead Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:40:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: AHB In-Reply-To: <20060328200121.64667.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4311520B > But, in working with >unlimited broodnests and building them up prior to our main >honey flow, if space enough given above the brood for >storage, bees DO NOT swarm of own accord..... >Dee A. Lusby I agree, Dee. Same thing here. Build them up before the flow (no splitting, etc) and with good queens and plenty of super space, even huge colonies won't swarm. They make honey. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.1/292 - Release Date: 3/24/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:41:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Beekeeper Selected to Receive German Chancellor Scholarship Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Beekeeper Selected to Receive German Chancellor Scholarship A few here might know the Bee-L sunscribers Kristen and Michael Traynor. I had the opportunity to meet them when they visited to see my bees last year. Kristen and Michael are collecting resistant stock and feral bees in their ongoing efforts in breeding a better honeybee that can resist parasites, resist disease and better acclimated to their environmental conditions in Maryland. Kristen recently was selected by the Humboldt Foundation to receive a German Chancellor Scholarship, one of 10 such research scholarships awarded annually to high-potential U.S. leaders in a variety of fields. This is the first time the scholarship was awarded to a beekeeper for apian research. It is good that the Humboldt foundation has recognized the importance of beekeeping and hopefully this trend will continue. The Fredrick News-Post March 27, 2006 Keeping bees: http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/agriculture/display.htm? storyid=47606 Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 23:21:18 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Danny Slabaugh Subject: Re: Ask a 1000 beekeepers the same question and you will get? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >3. If yes, consider sterilising with acetic acid - good practice. Hi All, I do a lot of reading between the lines. I want to thank you for a wealth of information that this post is to the world of beekeeping. Some of the information is not practical for the commercial BKs, but for the smaller operations that want to stay chemical free, I want to stay on the safe side. I need to ask, How do you apply the acetic acid ? Thanks Slabaugh Apiaries Danny Slabaugh -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:22:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: California breeding conditions In-Reply-To: <20060328030619.90582.qmail@web53413.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike Stoops wrote:AFB drones outperform European drones consistently and if any are in the mating area, they are the ones who will mate with the flying virgin queens. Mike in LA DANG! Must have American Foul Brood on the brain. The AFB should be AHB, Africanized Honey Bee. Sorry about that folks. My concern now is the distribution of Africanized genetics via queen breeders in areas that have been invaded by Africanized bees. As I mentioned earlier, from all I have heard, if there are Africanized drones in the area, they will dominate the mating scene and the queens mated in these areas will have most of their semen from the Africanized drones. Don't think the queen breeders want to talk about that. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:42:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Anarchistic bees In-Reply-To: <002a01c652b1$21285c20$0e8b453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor: 1 - 5% of workers in queen-right cerana colonies had activated ovaries whereas Apis mellifera is less than 0.01%. Reply: Kinda looks like LC vs SC/natural sizing to me, especially with older archives talking about relative items, i.e. thelytoky with self-fertile workers in several races/strains. Or queen up above laying storm while down below odd patches eggs being found. Cannot be in two places same time. Glad to see modern research finally being done on it without the fright tactics. Respectfuly submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona htp://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 21:16:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: California breeding conditions In-Reply-To: <20060329022242.407.qmail@web53410.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike: AHB drones outperform European drones consistently Reply: With one exception, European drones on SC and with flight compatability; and timed right for mating/breeding, you'd be surprised at what you can accomplish to the contrary of this misconception. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 08:06:48 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Ask a 1000 beekeepers the same question and you will get? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Use an 80% percent solution of glacial acetic acid, i.e 1 part water to 4 parts glacial acetic acid, take 4 fluid ozs (UK measure) and have it absorbed in paper towelling or Fabric. Place empty brood box on inverted floor board, place the absorbent pad on top of the frames of the brood box, place next box and another pad on top of that until all boxes to be sterilised are in the stack, close with cover board and seal cracks with duct tape. Leave closed for a fortnight and then air before using. Acetic acid is corrosive and will corrode exposed metal and remove your skin so cover metal parts with Vaseline and wear protective gloves. It will also corrode concrete. Ruary I need to ask, How do you apply the acetic acid ? > Thanks > Slabaugh Apiaries > Danny Slabaugh > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 07:15:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: Ask a 1000 beekeepers the same question and you will get? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to all who are replying to my question. The sterilization method has been one such reply. I contacted Peter Edwards directly to clarifiy the strength of the acid in his methodology and got a reply that it was 80% acetic acid . Ruary has also replied but rather than using full strength there is a dilution involved. I indicated recently that my background was in chemistry and I must act responsibly now by warning about the use of any acids especially concentrated, when there is a dilution involved as here with water. The other method was to pour the 4 oz undiluted onto a pad of rags. First , the facilities have to be correct, i.e in a fume hood type of ventilated area or outside in a quiet undisturbed location. The apparel must be long sleeves, several layers or acid resistant, face shield preferably and a mask for the type of acid conditions . Chemical gloves. Nothing less! and any other suggestions by others also. If dilutions are done with water Remember: ACID INTO WATER. If you do the reverse, there is an exothermic reaction at the surface and splattering will take place causing a very dangerous situation. Wikepedia online encylopedia has interesting info on acetic acid for those who are interested. Last , it was pointed out that this sterilization method is in many books. Can someone post those sources of reference. Thanks Walter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 13:49:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Ask a 1000 beekeepers the same question and you will get? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ruary Rudd gave the method for using acetic acid (saving me a job!). Can I add a couple of points: We can buy 80% acetic, but if you have to use glacial then add acid to water, not the other way around. Most books give a week, not a fortnight as the time required. Be careful not to inhale the fumes. On a hot day they can be overpowering - and corrosive to lungs! Always have water handy to dilute any spills, especially on clothing or exposed skin. Face protection is also sensible. I put old rags on the top bars, then add acid; not too keen on handling acid soaked rags. This method will kill nosema, amoeba, wax moth eggs and adults (but not larvae of greater wax moth if they are deep in the comb) and resting stages of EFB on clean comb (it will not sterilise dead brood). Acid can be bought from chemical suppliers here (see Links page) in 5 gallon plastic containers. I paid under £17 for the last lot 3-4 years ago. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:32:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Jimmy R. Odom" Subject: wind chill effect on brood Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-442A9A81131F=======" --=======AVGMAIL-442A9A81131F======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to all from a lurker/beekeeper The weather temp today is to get into low 60s. Can someone tell me if at 60 degrees F , and 10 mph wind, would this cause the brood to become chilled? I'm hoping I can get into the bees today. Thanks Jimmy odom/charlotte nc -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- --=======AVGMAIL-442A9A81131F======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: "AVG certification" No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.3/295 - Release Date: 3/28/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- --=======AVGMAIL-442A9A81131F=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:50:04 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ask a 1000 beekeepers the same question and you will get? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I need to ask, How do you apply the acetic acid ? The Acetic acid you need is 80% concentrated so sensible precautions are needed. There are various methods. Easiest is probably to place all the frames into a large plastic sack, pour in about a quarter of a pint of acetic, seal the sack and leave for a week. Then remove (still being careful of the acid) and air until needed. Or you could stack up the boxes of frames and between each one place a wodge of cotton wool or plastic sponge and pour maybe an eights of a pint on each. Seal the boxes with tape to keep the fumes in as much as possible. This method has the advantage of sterilising the boxes as well. Don't do it near the house as the surrounding area will smell of vinegar. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:31:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Merit Insecticide, Imidaclopid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At a resent pest control seminar, as sale rep was telling us that Merit = is gaining popularity for controlling ants. Applied around the = perimeter of a residence, it is drawn systemically into the plants and = kills all nature of insects that feed on them. While Merit is not = labeled for ants, it is labeled for and effective against aphids, a = major food source for Carpenters Ants. With out this food source the = ants allegedly forage farther from the residence. Of course I have to ask, "What effect would Merit have on the Honey = Bees, drawing nectar from these treated plants?" My question was met by the blank stare of a deer caught in the head = lights. He rattled off the standard canned answers of label = restrictions. He said that it was his belief that Imaidaclopid would be = filtered out by the flower and not be present in the nectar. I am a little bit more than skeptical. We don't carry Merit as we are = not a landscape pest control company. I looked up the labels and MSDS = from Bayer. The wetable powder does in fact carry the standard = warnings, however the granular does not. Some times the things omitted = on the labels or more interesting than what is on it. It is effective = against moths and butterflies,.. Hmm.. So I'll pose my questions to the Ph.d.'s here. If Imidaclopid is = applied pre-bloom, would it be present in the nectar? If it is present = in the nectar, would it not do exactly what it was designed to do, and = kill all the brood larva? Am I wrong in assuming that if Imidaclopid = found it's way into capped honey, that it would be long since broken = down before harvest? I live in a residential area where fleets of chemical lawn service = trucks pass by each day. I have watched one company treat my next door = neighbors lawn with Tempo WP while the white clover is in bloom. While = I am annoyed by people who don't play by the same rules I do, but I = understand the problems. The applicator is following is supervisors = directions. His equipment does not allow him the opportunity to treat = around flowering plants. His schedule and work load does not afford him = the luxury of waiting until the blooms pass. My issues are as follows. = The applicator has never read the labels or has been required to by his = employers. His employers are bending and breaking the rules for faster = and cheaper results. No one is watching and calling on these companies = when they do break the rules. If these products can not be applied as = directed by the labels, they should not be on the trucks. Over applications and misapplications are how we lose the EPA = registrations of useful pesticides. In an effort to protect us from = ourselves, most of the truly effective and persistence pesticides are no = longer available. It sounds like a good idea until we get Bed Bugs in = our own homes and can't get D.D.T. to get ride of them. (D.D.T. = eradicated Bed Bugs from the U.S. before the registration was pulled. = They are coming back and we are left without an effective treatment for = them.) Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 07:29:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: California breeding conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee & All, Reply: With one exception, European drones on SC and with flight compatability; and timed right for mating/breeding, you'd be surprised at what you can accomplish to the contrary of this misconception. Interesting hypothesis but only hypothesis until proven otherwise by research. Very little is known about mating due to the 75 feet level the queen mates. Also the distance from the hive effects research. The virgin normally flies past the drone DCA's of the apiary she comes from. Which could also be a reason why AHB drones are successful in areas of AHB feral colonies. I think the statement about AHB drones being able to mate with EU virgins better than EU drones seems supported by the fast nature AHB takes over an area (like what happened in Arizona). However I find it hard to believe any one race of drone is better at mating than another but what our researchers tell us about AHB drones. However: We know now AHB colonization was speeded up by documented AHB hive invasions and constant swarming. Swarms so small one hardly believes is a swarm. Small swarms combine into larger swarms at times with several AHB queens. Strange bees ( as compared to our bees)! Also: pseudo queens & AHB laying workers could be a bigger factor than AHB drone mating and would lead to the idea the AHB drone is successful more of the time. Common sense tells me luck plays a big part (if you call giving up your life for sex *lucky*). The AHB in the southwest is very different in my opinion than those observed in Florida in many ways. They seem to lack the little black "capensis like" bees for one thing. I looked at many jars of samples and no little black bees. The Florida AHB are closer to what was seen in Brazil in the first 20 years after the release. Swarming reported is almost double reported in literature. Very strange but would seem understandable is the actual invasion came from scutellata swarms off ships from South Africa instead of the spread from the entry into Hildago, Texas. Also I hear quite a bit of talk of AHB being brought back from almonds. I do not believe this is a big problem and I will explain why. When bees arrive back in Missouri around March 22nd. drones are just emerging and are not mature yet. A few might be. Hives which have went queenless are queenless. We have never had a hot hive we feel came from an almond supercedure. This could change as southern California becomes more colonized by AHB. I do believe many AHB queens have been shipped from Texas and open mated by commercial beekeepers wintering and raising queens in Texas but still has not been a big problem which makes me wonder about the reported AHB drone success story. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:04:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Ask a 1000 beekeepers the same question and you will get? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry I was not clear, 4 fluid oz of 80% acid, not undiluted acid. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- The other method was to > pour the 4 oz undiluted onto a pad of rags. > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 07:43:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pete Subject: Juniper Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings~ Is anybody out there using juniper in their hives? I stumbled on this a few weeks ago, and have been trying to find further info on it. http://juniper.oregonstate.edu/bibliography/documents/phpW3BwYe_royce.pdf I mill lumber for a living, and specialize in juniper... Best to all Pete -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:15:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Merit Insecticide, Imidaclopid In-Reply-To: <004c01c6533d$70825d20$6d9de444@D3Q8NS51> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James, Welcome to the wonderful world of the Imidacloprid(e) saga!! The formulations containing this particular molecule pass under different guises - maybe "Gaucho" is familiar to you? There is a wealth of information from many sources relating to how industry, researchers, beekeepers have viewed its mode of action in the "field". Be warned, there are many conflicting attitudes, reports and positions. Much time and cash has been spent trying to sort out the situation, reaching to European Union / National government levels. Legal contests have resulted in detail not being released to the general public. Since its original introduction on to the market - details relating to its mode of action in the environment has changed. This being due to re-testing and improved techniques in residue/metabolite analysis amongst others. The molecule has been removed/limited from several original crop applications. Happy hunting! Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 13:55:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Glen_Glater?= Subject: anyone willing to post PDF of the 8 frame and 9 frame spacers? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Would someone be willing to trace their 8 or 9 frame spacer, scan the trace and send a PDF so that others can make spacers to use this season? --glen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 14:02:09 -0500 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Acetic acid for traetment of combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From Honey Bee Pests, Predators and Diseases 3rd edition(1997) edited by Roger A. Morse and Kim Flottum, Root Publishing Chapter 4 Protoza Ingemar Fries=20 p 72 "To reduce the need of changing combs for control of nosema disease = transmission, acetic acid fummigation has been used to kill spores of = N.apis on wax combs (Bailey 1957a, Jordan 1957). The acid may be diluted = to 60 %, and approximately 2 ml solution/litre volume to be treated = used. For treatment, solution is placed on a plate in an empty super on = the top bars above a stack of supers. To increase the evapouration area, = a crumbled paper or ball of cotton is placed in the acid. The stack of = supers is sealed and left undisturbed for at least a week and may be = reused after being sufficiently aired." Chapter 22 Shimanuki and Knox Summary of Control Methods control of = nosema disease P 506 "Acetic acid fumigation Like heat treatment, acetic acid fumigation renders spore of Nosema apis = nonviable. Acetic acid is not approved for this use in the United = States. All bees must be removed from the equipment to be treated. The = hive bodies with the frames and combs they contain are placed on a = floorboard outdoors or in an open shed. A pad of cotton or other = absorbent material soaked in 118 ml (1/4 pint) of 80 % acetic acid is = placed on the top bars of the frames in each hive. The entrance is = blocked and the stack is covered. Cracks in or between the hive bodies = should be sealed with tape. The stack should be left undisturbed for one = week. After fumigation, the equipment should be aired for about 48 hours = before use." See also Honey Bee Pathology 2nd ed. by Bailey and Ball Acedemic Press = 1991 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 14:20:31 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bee1Bob1@AOL.COM Subject: Use of Acetic Acid to fight Nosema. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Use of Acetic Acid to fight Nosema. Just a cautionary note! When using acetic acid do not let it drip onto concrete as it eats it away. I fumigated some hive in a big black garden sac/plastic bag but there was a tear in the bottom. As I poured the acid onto the pad must have dripped some - made a real mess of the drive outside my garage. Bob Tamworth, Staffordshire, England. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 20:52:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Ask a 1000 beekeepers the same question and you will get? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Zimmermann asked: > Last , it was pointed out that this sterilization method [with acetic > acid] is in many books. > Can someone post those sources of reference. Most books in the UK give this as standard. I found it in Hooper (Guide to Bees and Honey); Hooper and Morse (Encyclopaedia of Beekeeping) and Bailey (Honey Bee Pathology), but could, no doubt, find more references if I looked. On the safety issue, I could add that formic acid (the next one up the chain) is more dangerous that acetic (I am not implying that acetic should not be handled with great care!). Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 15:25:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ann?= Subject: Terra patties Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am relatively new to beekeeping, and trying to keep abreast of all the tasks that need doing at certain times - I fear I am always a little behind. I used Terrapatties last fall, but think I am a bit late in coming to the spring treatment: the directions say to do so no fewer than 45 days before adding honey supers, which would be mid-May at this point. I will be out of the country for two weeks at precisely that point. Is it okay to put them in for a shorter period of time (I could do 40 days), or does that breed resistance? Or better just to put the honey supers on in late May when I return and take the risk that the bees will run out of room? (No, I don't have anyone I can ask to do it in my stead - I wish I did!) In either event, does one remove all the remnants of patties when adding the supers? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:03:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Terra Patties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline My advice to you is going to be to not use the Terra Patties at all! Why do you think you should? Have you had American Foulbrood (AFB)? Did you get frames from someone who either (1) told you that American Foulbrood had been a problem, or (2) was using Terra Patties themselves? What I am about to say is very controversial, some would say heresay, but I deeply believe it. I think that the use of Terra Patties is the #1 reason we now have such a problem with resistant strains of AFB in the US. It seems like just too much of a coincidence that resistance started showing u= p a few years after Terra Patties became available and were widely used. I know, I know...no one has ever proved the relationship. SO WHAT? We would never use terramyacin prophylacticly for humans. Why should we for bees or any other animals? My suggestion...unless someone you got frames from said they had a problem with AFB or you have actually seen it in your hives, go on out of town and don't use Terramyacin at all, let alone in patty form. If you have seen it in your hives, use the Terra dust according to label instructions. If you wonder if you have AFB, when you get back in May call your inspection service. They will make the inspection, free, and let you know. Good luck -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 21:21:01 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: anyone willing to post PDF of the 8 frame and 9 frame spac ers? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Would someone ... trace their 8 or 9 frame spacer, scan the trace and send a PDF... Unfortunately, I don't have a scanner. But here is a simple recipe to make these: 1. Since equipment varies a little, measure the inside width of your supers in the direction of the row of frames. Call it I. 2. Measure the width of the top bar of your frames and call it B. 3. The spacer looks like a wide-tooth comb. The teeth should be tapered down a bit for easier insertion/extraction. Call the width (or space bet. the top bars) at the bottom point of each tooth W. 4. For an 8-frame set-up, use this formula: W=(I-8*B)/9 5. For an 9-frame set-up, use this formula: W=(I-9*B)/10 6. If you make the length of your spacer equal to I, then the location of the center of the first tooth is 1/2(W+B) and each consecutive tooth is (W+B) center to center from the preceding tooth. 7. Using a scale (or calipers) draw this profile on your first piece and stack the rest behind it. Clamp all pieces together and carefully remove the material bet. the teeth on a table saw or router. Take your time and enjoy! Waldemar PS1. The teeth need not be long - 1/2" works fine. PS2. Or you can space the frames by eye. As someone suggested, after a few supers, you'll start to develop calibrated fingers for spacing. Really. :) That's how I do it. If you are off by, say, a 1/16" or so, it won't matter to the bees or you. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:04:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: California breeding conditions In-Reply-To: <000f01c65334$d92c4600$24bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob: Very little is known about mating due to the 75 feet level the queen mates.Also the distance from the hive effects research. Reply: Well Bob, right now I would take my hypothesis with SC regressed bees seeing what you wrote about little known on the subject and how it effects research. How would they ever really know that all the bees in the South Western States were ever really effected? Bob continues: ...any one race of drone is better at mating than another but what our researchers tell us about AHB drones. Reply: Again, Bob could you fill me in on how they could know this as fact, if you have already stated very little is known about mating parameters, due to heights and distances researchers have to deal with, in making determinations concerning our honeybees. Bob continues: pseudo queens & AHB laying workers could be a bigger factor than AHB drone mating Reply: Speaking of this again Bob, I have stated several times that archives state that this condition is in many races/strains looked at. Also Trevor just posted some excellent information on Anarchistic Bees on another thread. Could you somehow relate the two to me as to how you seem to say one thing; and yet what Trevor wrote relates more to old archives and just bees in general for what I consider some great traits we need back as an industry. Bob Continues: They seem to lack the little black "capensis like" bees for one thing. I looked at many jars of samples and no little black bees. Reply: Well Bob, again to me small black bees, are bees of temperate zones and first to transition into concerning racial change from coming out of the tropics; while the more yellower ones are bees of the tropical zones and larger yellower ones last to transition out before changing/transitioning into temperate areas. But if you were to look on a latitudinal map I think you could see this more, as Arizona is above the 30th parallel and much of Florida is below it and the transition zone is about the last 3-5 degrees above the 30th if I remember correctly. So we would have the smaller blacks similar to mediterranean area, and Florida would have more yellower being with latitudes below the 30th parallel more. This might have bearing on the swarming you are talking about, as tropical bees are said to swarm more....but like I have said for a few years now, could also be due to bad positioning of internal foundation/combs leading to more swarming. Nice Talking with you Bob again as always. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 17:09:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Terra Patties In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eugene Makovec Newsletter Editor Missouri State Beekeepers Association -----Original Message----- "What I am about to say is very controversial, some would say hearsay ..." It's more than hearsay. We've known for quite some time that terra patties breed resistance by staying in the hive for an extended period, giving a reduced dose over a long period rather than a full dose up front. Add to that the fact that it's common practice to treat "preventively", and Lloyd is correct -- we beekeepers have brought AFB resistance upon ourselves. This is similar to the problem we have with human bacterial nemeses becoming resistant to antbiotics. For years doctors have prescribed these medicines for cold symptoms and the like (even over the phone), "just in case" they turn into something worse. And now we have people dying in hospitals from staph infections that are resistant to everything we throw at them. Eugene Makovec Kirkwood, MO -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 18:01:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: California breeding conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee & All, >Again, Bob could you fill me in on how they could know this as fact, if you have already stated very little is known about mating parameters, I have always questioned the researcher hypothesis ( I guess based on some experiments ) that AHB drones out mate Eu. drones. I rather believe the hypothesis comes from seeing how fast AHb can colonize an area and the researchers figure the AHB drones must be out mating the EU drones. I went back fifty years of ABJ & Bee Culture doing research on an article. They all say that AHB drones out mate EU drones but give no reference to research. One of the strangest things I read about africanized bees was in the January 1976 ABJ in Roger Morse column. Quote: " a researcher from Poland carried africanized queens into Poland from Brazil 1960. The queens began to lay eggs in January exactly like the EU colonies. By May the hives were totally Africanized." Then Roger goes on to say: " Most interesting was the fact that the aggresive traits of the africanized bees were lost in the temperate conditions of Poland" Roger does not give reference to the Poland study. Does the list know of the actual study so I could read? Roger uses the above Poland study to conclude: AHB could not survive in colder areas of North America without help as they would not cluster. Roger next says : " More important , their temperment would not be the same as in Brazil" I think the Poland experiment Roger refers to needs repeating today. Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: Merit Insecticide, Imidaclopid MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; reply-type=original; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Here is the source for label information- it is a great source to bookmark. It does address your questions on ants and bees and Merit http://www.cdms.net/ Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 08:01:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Rob_Termeer?= Subject: Re: California breeding conditions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings all: Just thought I'd add some data regarding California queen mating. I am in eastern Ontario (all my life of 45 years running 1200 hives the last 20 years) where our industry has caused many of it's own hardships with it's overly protective strategy. Total border closure to US imports in the late 1980's was a significant factor in the decline of colony numbers in this province which are 35% lower today. The initial impact on western province packagebee operators was much worst and totally unforgiveable IMO. I am adjacent to New York state and the bees/mites did not respect the law but came across anyway. However, in June 2004 after much tough debating, with testing and protocols in place, US queen imports have resumed. I have brought in 325 California(north of Sacramento)queens since then and I believe over 600 queens total came in last year province wide. This province(gov't-OMAF) decided they would follow up with morphmetric testing of the offspring of these queens inspite of the other protocols in place. None of the queens I brought in showed any signs of africanization by FABIS and I have not heard of any positive test results on the others. So far the AHB drones seem to be absent or unsuccessful in this area of California, atleast during mid to late April when my queens were getting mated. First pollen yesterday March 29th. Rob T. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 11:07:59 -0800 Reply-To: port128@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Porter Subject: Re: Merit Insecticide, Imidaclopid (2) Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jim, It is hard to believe that feeding insects will die from a plant which has systemics in its system, and that the blossoms/nectar/pollen are unaffected by the chemical. > I am a little bit more than skeptical. We don't carry Merit as we are > not a landscape pest control company. I looked up the labels and MSDS > from Bayer. The wetable powder does in fact carry the standard > warnings, however the granular does not. Some times the things omitted > against moths and butterflies,.. Hmm.. > > So I'll pose my questions to the Ph.d.'s here. If Imidaclopid is > applied pre-bloom, would it be present in the nectar? If it is present > in the nectar, would it not do exactly what it was designed to do, and > kill all the brood larva? Am I wrong in assuming that if Imidaclopid > found it's way into capped honey, that it would be long since broken > down before harvest? My experience with granular insecticides is a bitter one going back over 20 years. The local nurseries were heavily promoting a new snail bait and rose systemic by Bayer in the late 1980's/early 1900's, and my wife started using them. She liked the granular form and shaker top because it made them easy to use and they were very effective. Towards the end of summer I noticed bees were attracted by the smell (rather distinct), and were gathering around the granules to stuff their pollen sacs. I asked her to water the granules in after sprinkling them around but that seemed to make things worse if not enough water was used. The damp granules would decompose into grains. Until that year I had never lost a hive (no extremes to deal with in NorCal), but over winter 9 of 10 died, and the 10th was barely making it. There were lots of stores but only a handful of bees with scattered brood cells. This happened a year or two before the county advised us to check hives for mites. - At the time I was convinced the Bayer granules were stored as pollen and the bees succumbed to poison while living off the hive supplies. - It could also be that the mites hit earlier than the warning about them, and took out the hives. I am still inclined to blame the Bayer granules. JP -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 07:30:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Today is the First Annual World Apitherapy Day MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Today is the First Annual ‘World Apitherapy Day’ March 30, 2006, marks the first annual celebration of "World Apitherapy Day," an event designed to enhance international understanding of the therapeutic use and health benefits of bee products. This date was chosen for the first annual World Apitherapy Day because it is the birth date of Dr. Philipp Terc (formerly Filip Tertsch), the first scientific researcher to investigate the medical uses of 'apitoxin," or bee venom. Terc was born on March 30, 1844, in Praporiste, Bohemia (Czech Republic)... For more information, SEE: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 13:14:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: More on honey bee races and color Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit quote: Well Bob, again to me small black bees, are bees of temperate zones and first to transition into concerning racial change from coming out of the tropics; while the more yellower ones are bees of the tropical zones and larger yellower ones last to transition out before changing/transitioning into temperate areas. This is false. Italian bees, which are brown to golden colored, are NOT tropical. They originated in the foothills of the Alps, in Lombardy. The latitude is around 45, the same as Montreal, Canada. They were exported to Massachusetts in the 1800s, which is a very cold region, where they were perfectly capable of over-wintering. There are various native yellow bees throughout the mediterranean region. Native black honey bees are found in various parts of Africa -- in Kenya (monticolor), in Madagascar (unicolor) and in North Africa (intermissa). These bees of Morocco & Algeria may have been the origin of the European black bees; they are certainly related to the bees of Spain (iberica). Also, it is the cold climate bees that are generally larger. African and Asian bees are the smaller ones. This is fully documented in Eva Crane's books. These statements are based on research done by all the accepted experts in the field. I have a stack of books by Ruttner, Hepburn, Brother Adam, Jerzy Woyke, etc. to prove it. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:28:38 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Beekeeping forum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A new European Beekeeping forum has been initiated.=20 You can visit it at: http://www.kunstschwarm.de/ Best regards Roger White Cyprus -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 07:44:11 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Anarchistic bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Also Trevor just posted some > excellent information on Anarchistic Bees on another > thread. Could you somehow relate the two to me as to how > you seem to say one thing; and yet what Trevor wrote > relates more to old archives and just bees in general for > what I consider some great traits we need back as an > industry. Being quoted, I thought I should seek some clarification as I am not sure what I quoted is being used to prove. The information is not old. The figures I quoted were from a conference last week. The paper is a few years old. In that case, I have seen the drones above an excluder, laid by worker/s, on two occasions. The once in the paper quoted and a month back. This is certainly a trait I do not wise to have or breed for, unlike Dee if I am interpreting her correctly. The main reason being is I do not want unwanted brood above the excluder. It stops the bees clearing when I put on a clearer board (escape board) and is a pain to extract. This rare sighting, by me, would confirm the figure given for Apis mellifera of less than 0.01% having workers with activated ovaries. As I said it is not a trait I wish to see in my bees. Not sure how the information I gave proves anything on the LC v's SC debate unless it means that SC bees have this anarchistic behaviour. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:24:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Cox Subject: Re: AHB In-Reply-To: <005b01c65263$a5446240$02bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bob, How far north are the AHB now. Last I heard they were north of Fresno. Kathy Cox ~ Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets At 04:32 AM 3/28/2006, you wrote: >Hello Dick & All, > Time frame for colonization is unpredictable but >Southern California is becoming AHB faster than any place in the U.S. right >now. > >Bob > >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:34:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: AHB Comments: To: Kathy Cox Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Kathy Cox ~ Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets > Sooo -- you are selling orange blossom honey from Sonoma County for 9.00 a pint! I don't recall seeing very many orange trees in Sonoma County... are there? pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:09:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: More on Honeybee races and colour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is false. Italian bees, which are brown to golden colored, are NOT tropical. They originated in the foothills of the Alps, in Lombardy. Two elderly gentlemen (not beekeepers themselves), now long gone, spoke to me of the 'black Italians' that were around in this part of England when they were young in the 1920s/30s. They remembered them especially for their fearsome tempers. Is it possible that: a) the temper arose from cross mating between imported Italians (Am Ligustica) and the native English bee (Am mellifera)? b) in those days imported Italians were black in they came from a higher altitude as Peter suggests, where a black body subjected to solar radiation would enjoy a longer working day than a paler bee? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:23:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 29 Mar 2006 to 30 Mar 2006 (#2006-84) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 31/03/2006 06:00:32 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: The paper is a few years old. In that case, I have seen the drones above an excluder, laid by worker/s, on two occasions. Trevor, What leads you to conclude that the drones were as a result of eggs laid by workers and not: a) trapped above the excluder by a manipulation by the beekeeper, or b) The result of eggs moved by anarchistic bees? I, too, have occasionally seen brood above an excluder but draw no other conclusion than that we need more research as that conducted by Prof Ratieks and his colleagues. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 20:10:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: More on Honeybee races and colour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Two elderly gentlemen (not beekeepers themselves), now long gone, spoke to >me of the 'black Italians' Now, that is bit of a sketchy source, two old men not beekeepers! Reminds me of a story told me by an old man, also not a beekeeper. He said he figured out bees could fly 50 miles an hour. He had ridden in a truck which had bee hives on back and when he looked out, he saw bees flying around the hives. Therefore, he said, they were keeping up with the truck by flying at 50 mph. I didn't bother to point out that the bees he saw were probably coming out of the hives ... >Is it possible that: >a) the temper arose from cross mating between imported Italians (Am >Ligustica) and the native English bee (Am mellifera)? This is what Brother Adam describes >b) in those days imported Italians were black in they came from a higher >altitude as Peter suggests, where a black body subjected to solar radiation >would enjoy a longer working day than a paler bee? I never suggested any such thing. In fact, I pointed out that jet black bees are just as prevalent in the tropics and that color in bees is not related climate, solar radiation, and so forth. The native bee of Morocco and Algeria is black. Being black doesn't seem to be a drawback for them. Just how would being black extend the work day anyway? Bees won't even go out until it is already warm enough, and they have to come back when it's dark even if it's 95 degrees F. Northern bees apparently do have longer hair and larger bodies, -- to better survive the cold of winter, no doubt. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 22:28:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Traynor Subject: Re: German Chancellor Scholarship & Bee Culture April Issue In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe, I am sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but the grant has made us a little extra busy. On the front cover of the April issue of Bee Coulture is a photograph that Kirsten took of a frame of pollen in one of our hives. The queen is the daughter of a feral queen from Old Sol Enttiprises at http://www.oldsolenterprises.com/. We received 12 of these queens in Sept 05 and put them in 5 frame nuc boxes. We gave them two frames of brood, one frame of honey and one frame of pollen/honey. They only had foundation for the fith frame. We were testing them for their survival rate without treatment. They were in the same apiary with 12 commercial queens who were in 10 frame Langstrogth hives. In the ten frame hives the bees collected just one or two bland colors of pollen, which they stored as bee bread. The hives headed by the feral daughter queens drew out the cells with wax and propolis and filled them with an artist's array of colors and blends of pollen. We fed them a little to build them up and all the five frame nucs went into the winter with one to two five frame boxes of honey stores on top that were taken from other hives. The hives survived the winter well. While the commercial queens from several sources had thymol in August-September and then oxalic acid in January, they did not fair as well. In March we combined several of the nucs with the 10 frame hives to strengthen them up for the coming honey flow. We had no problems with the combining. Most of the nucs have now been transferred into ten frame hives. I would rather have a better queen at a higher price than a cheap queen at a lower price, because a good queen is less work and gives a higher return. The problem, as Bob Harrison has said, is finding them. Bob Harrison may have different opinions on many things in beekeeping than I or others, but he also has a lot of experience I wish I had. Bob took a queen rearing course with Marla Spivak and Marion Ellis in Nebraska, which I also attended. My background is such that I have had to develop a fairly good sense of observation. Nothing that went on for those several days seemed to pass Bob's notice. At the time I was completely unware of Bob's background, but quickly knew he was not just a retiree with a few beehives. He was there to understand, learn, and raise awareness of potential problems with his insights. I did not introduce myself to Bob, I just listened. I may debate with Bob about what I have researched that may be different then his knowledge base, but it would be nice to see more beekeepers with such dedication for so many years and still going strong. Let us hope we all keep listening to the other side, especially about AHB. Who would debate that if we had taken more precautions in the past, US beekeeping today would be so much easier? It makes very poor business sense to play Russian Roulette with beekeeping. Having been to short courses taught by beekeepers who stick to a regimented program without adjusting their treatment schedules based on the needs of the bees makes me wonder what the future of beekeeping will be. Unfortunately it is not the bees making beekeeping decisions, it is us. Kirsten has an article in the April issue of Bee Culture about the medicinal products in the hive, the same subject for which she received the German Chancellor Scholarship. We want to find out why the German beekeepers are so heavily supported by their government through research and education. From what we have seen on the German sites you have to study beekeeping for 3 years at the bee institure before you can be called a professional beekeeper. Obviously, I do not know who has the better system, but I plan on trying to find out, as I think a future lies in greater communication between beekeepers worldwide. Michael Traynor www.mdbee.com J. Waggle wrote: >Beekeeper Selected to Receive German Chancellor Scholarship >The Fredrick News-Post March 27, 2006 >Keeping bees: >http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/agriculture/display.htm? >storyid=47606 > >Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---