From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:46:56 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.2 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 824284907F for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:46:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFkpID016612 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:46:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:46:51 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0607D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 116784 Lines: 2810 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 08:38:53 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron & Eefje Subject: Re: Bee and wildflower diversity declines in... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >...the value of pollination in the production of food crops (worldwide!) - >much of which is >done by honeybees. On the subject of pollination: Although I love honeybees and have great respect for all that they perform, still when I observe flowering plants, trees, bushes, and the crop in fields in Sweden or the Netherlands, it is only the bumblebee that is there in abundance and still going strong ealrly in the morning and evening and even with less favourable weather conditions, when the honeybees are nowhere to be seen. The bumblebees also appear to be much more lively or nervous than our honeybees, so my observations indicate that pollination from honeybees is many times greatly overestimated. This is even so in my own garden with 4 honeybee hives at the southern end and 1 hive at the nothern side of our property. Only in a situation where large numbers of beehives are placed on the edge of a field the honeybee would (of course) win from the naturally present (bumble)bees. The bumblebees certainly deserve our respect and care! In that regard we should not forget all the other bees either, that we do not seem to know so much about. Ron van Mierlo Sweden -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 09:18:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Bee and wildflower diversity declines in... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Allen wrote > I suspect though that there is enough pollination > done by other pollinators that the amount should not be considered > insignificant. Certainly true in our garden where the plums and gooseberries seem to be pollinated exclusively by solitary bees (Andrena). Pictures here: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/Newsletters/May2006.htm Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 09:06:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?David_Croteau?= Subject: pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was shocked when I saw five different types of bees on a blackery bush at the same time, from bumblebee down to one so small you can hardly see it. One small one had a green head (what is that?). My honeybee was there also. So I don't think a home gardner would need honeybees for pollination here in Maine, but buleberry farms is another story. Dave -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 21:27:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Bee and wildflower diversity declines in... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron wrote about bumblebees > The bumblebees certainly deserve our respect and care! You are so right. I spend a considerable amount of time persuading people to leave bumblebee nests that they find in the gardens, often in a compost heap, under the garden shed or in a bird box. During the 1970s and 1980s huge numbers of bumblebees were destroyed in this are due to pesticides that were sprayed onto oilseed rape. As a result, the towns became a refuge for them and they are now speading back into the countryside as the use of pesticides reduces. We have many heathers in the front garden (Ericas, as our soil is not acid enough for the Callunas) and it is a joy to see the bumblebees on them; on a fine day in March I counted 11 queens on the heathers and 7 more resting in the sunshine on the south facing wall of the house. Our rather small rear garden is given over to a patio, with herbs planted beyond - thyme, sage, lavender, catmint, oregano, etc. - and is alive with insects. The bumblbees work lavender and catmint non-stop. Of course, they work all hours as they have very little stores in the nest and have to forage almost constanly, regardless of the weather. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:58:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Swimming Pools MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think I figured out the swimming pool problem. I have eight hives = about sixty feet from a large above ground pool. I have tried putting = water out by the hives, to no effect. They seemed very interested in my = neighbors bird bath. When I move the bird bath to the bees, they passed = over it and headed for the pool. Watching the bees, I noticed a number that mastered a "dip" motion. = They dive to the water, then jerk back out of it. Most just bellyflop = into it. I also noticed the body count dropped on breezy days, = increased on still days. I put the pool on a timer. The filter goes on at 11:00 am and off at = 5:00. I adjusted the filter outlet up slightly to disturb the water = surface. As long as the water surface is moving during the hottest part = of the day, the pool does not catch but a few bees. The skimmer is full = of beetles, yellowjackets and flies, but not bees. I guess the bees are = smarter. I made one of the hoses leak slightly, training the bees to the filter = and out of the pool. A couple of days ago I came home to find hundreds of dead bees in the = pool, the timer on the filter had burned out. What a difference the = timer made while it worked! Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 18:11:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Queen release MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings: We've all somewhere along the line started up nucs with a new queen obtained from somewhere. In my case three pure Russians arrived from the breeder and I had prepared the nucs as usual a day ahead. I installed the queens without the attendants and waited. Now there is a rule that one should wait at least a week and some say more before being nosey and checking things out. I waited from Sat. till Wed. morning and then peeked in. That's five days gone by. The first one had released the queen. The second and third ones had not and I saw why. There was a queen cell which I had missed in each case. I knocked off the queen cell and released each queen directly into the hive. Would you have done the same???????? Input please Walter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 20:12:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Queen release Comments: To: Walter Zimmermann Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >There was a queen cell which I had missed in each case. >I knocked off the queen cell and released each queen directly into the hive. >Would you have done the same???????? Not exactly. I don't think there's much point to releasing the attendants, especially when introducing to a nuc. Nucs are much more tolerant of change, especially if they have been depleted of older bees, which is often the case. The queen cells could have been started in the interval, so don't chastise yourself for missing them. Again, it probably doesn't matter much. I would expect them to abort the cells once they get the laying queen out. But, yes, if the queen has been caged in a hive for 5 days or so, it is probably the best bet to release her then and there. They really don't have any good options BUT to accept her, especially if you remove all the Q-cells. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 18:07:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Queen release In-Reply-To: <482.62cfb000.31f3fc78@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Walter Zimmermann wrote: Greetings: In my case three pure Russians arrived from the breeder and I had prepared the nucs as usual a day ahead. I installed the queens without the attendants and waited. Walt, Be aware that sometimes Russian queens are very difficult to introduce. Making up nucs increases your odds for success, but sometimes, even if you do everything right, the bees won't accept the Russians. They are easier to introduce into the Caucasian line than the Italian. It helps if the colony to which they are going to be introduced are pretty confused, like if you take a frame of bees from two, three, or four different colonies to make up you nucs. Good luck with yours. Let us know how it goes. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 07:25:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: 3 Arrested in Scam Selling Fake Bee Venom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII GO TO: www.apitherapynews.com 3 Arrested in Scam Selling Fake Bee Venom Xu Zhongyan and Dong Zhen, Shanghai Daily (China), 7/22/2006 HONGKOU District Police arrested three suspects on charges they earned 410,000 yuan (US$51,360) in a fake bee venom scam... -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 11:08:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Heat Killed Colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1DB538AE A friend told me of a commercial beekeeper he knows in the northern Plains, whose colonies were killed by excessive heat. The temps got to 115F or higher. In mid day, the bees boiled out of their colonies, and died on the ground. Seems he lost nearly every colony. Has anyone else heard of this tragic event? Mike -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/385 - Release Date: 7/11/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 11:13:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Eggs above excluder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1DB538AE I make up cell builders by raising sealed brood above an excluder, leaving queen and sealed brood below. 9 days later, the day before grafting, I check the entire hive for started cells. I start 4 or 5 cell builders at a time. Each round, I find at least one that has an egg in a queen cup, above the excluder. Any ideas on how that egg got above the excluder. It seems it was either carried there by a worker, or laid there by a worker. Hardly seems that there would be a laying worker that quickly, I almost think it must have been carried. I wonder if there is a Wyatt Magnum type photo out there of workers carrying eggs. Mike -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/385 - Release Date: 7/11/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 12:52:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Any ideas on how that egg got above the excluder. It seems it was either >carried there by a worker, or laid there by a worker. Hi Mike! Hope you are well. My own take is: there has never been shown any evidence that workers move eggs, though one would suppose that they COULD. Much evidence points to workers laying eggs a lot, even in normal colonies. These eggs are supposedly removed by other workers (worker policing). The proof of course would be to raise the egg and see if it turns into a queen or a drone ... pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 12:57:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: Queen release MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Mike in LA et al: Thanks for the input I've had Russians for five years now The nucs were made up from Russian stock To Peter in the UK , thanks for your input- your quite right old chap! - will update in about a week as to eggs/brood. Thanks Walter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 12:58:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Has anyone else heard of this tragic event? In many parts of California, bees are kept under shades called ramadas, or moved up into the mountains in summer, precisely for this reason. If temperatures rise above 110F, you bet your are going to have trouble, unless they are shaded. a picture is at: http://tinyurl.com/gjk7n or http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/mckavett/images/remada-lg.jpg -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 13:28:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Eggs above excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Mike Palmer wonders how they get there when the queen is below. Tom Seeley has demonstrated that at any one time there are 20-30 egg-laying workers in a 'normal' colony. He postulates that they are usually not recognized by beekeepers because nurse bees destroy the larvae as a matter of course. My guess is that is your source of eggs above the excluder. While well-respected beekeepers on this list have stated they have seen workers carrying eggs and even removing them from the queen's oviduct, I once attended a seminar where both Sue Cobey and Medhat Nasr reported they have never observed either. while I am not in the same class as they, neither have I. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 14:32:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here’s a 2 page article from ‘The Beekeeper’s Quarterly’ a few years back I recently stumbled across: http://www.lasi.group.shef.ac.uk/aps323/ConflictInBeeHive.pdf As far as moving eggs, both Mark Winston and Eva Crane do write, and give sources in their bibliographies, that it does sometimes happen. (....and of course there is a lot of discussion in the archives as to whether or not that occurs.) Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 14:51:46 -0700 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew Shepherd (Xerces Society)" Subject: Bee and wildflower diversity declines in... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The value of honey bees to commercial agriculture cannot be overstated. A couple of generations ago, managed honey bees may have been considered an "insurance policy" against shortages of wild bees, but the dramatic changes in agricultural practises since have turned the tables in favor of honey bees. For most crops, there is no other bee that can be provided on demand for a limited bloom period in adequate numbers, and then moved away so that they are not in the way of of farming. There are a few crops for which managed alternatives exist. Alfalfa with the alkali bee (Nomia melanderi) and alfalfa leafcutter (Megachile rotundata) bee is an obvious example. Bumble bees are now extensively used for glass house crops of tomatoes and so on, though there are considerable concerns about the spread of diseases and escapes of nonnative species. Also, the blue orchard bee (Osmia lignaria) is increasingly finding a place in apple and cherry orchards; there are also some other species of Osmia that show a great deal of promise for cane fruits. There is also a growing body of research that demonstrates the contribution of native, wild-living bees to crop pollination. Claire Kremen has led much of this work in recent years, focusing on comparative studies between farms in California's Central Valley. Her team's work has established the importance of native bees and begun to identify specific landscape features that influence the abundance and diversity of native bees needed to get fully pollinated crops. One of the key features is adequate habitat in and close to the farm that can support populations of bees. Obviously, some modern-day farm landscapes don't leave a lot of space for habitat, but where it exists -- or can be created -- native bees can provide a reliable source of pollination. If you want to read more, Claire and her co-workers have published many papers, most of which are inaccessible unless you have the correct journal! She has also published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, an archive of whose issues is freely available online (http://www.pnas.org/; it is searchable -- look for Kremen, Williams, and Thorp, 2002, Crop pollination from native bees at risk from agricultural intensification, vol 99, pp. 16812-16816) and also in "Fremontia," the magazine of the Californian Native Plant Society (http://www.cnps.org/publications/index.htm#fremontia; Vol 30 #3-4, Kremen et al, 2002, Native bees, native plants, and crop pollination in California, pp 41-49). Another recent study estimated the value of non-managed insects to the U.S. economy. This calculated that wild bees were responsible for $3 billion of crop pollination. The study was published in Bioscience. A copy of the article can be down loaded from the Xerces Society website, at http://www.xerces.org/pubs_merch/Econ_Value_of_Insects.htm Happy reading! Matthew ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society for Invertebrate Conservation Protecting wildlife through science-based advocacy, education, and conservation projects since 1971. To join the Society, make a contribution, or read about our work, please visit www.xerces.org. Matthew Shepherd Director, Pollinator Conservation Program 4828 SE Hawthorne Boulevard, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 19:50:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1EAC5BA2 > The proof of course would be to raise the egg and see if it turns into a >queen or a drone ... Yes, I plan on allowing the next one to remain. We'll see just what it becomes...a drone or a queen. Mike -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/385 - Release Date: 7/11/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 20:09:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 > We'll see just what it becomes...a drone or a queen. My bet: it's aborted before you find out. Either the "worker police" = will eat it up or President Bush will exercise his second veto. =20 Aaron Morris - I think (not Republican), therefore I bee! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 22:06:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter writes: If temperatures rise above 110F, you bet your are going to have trouble, unless they are shaded. Reply: Not true at all. We are in a hot zone climate in S. Arizona and we routinely have temps above 105F-110F and up to 117F for days in a row and our bees do not have problems and they are in open sun and no shades. It is other things that do the damage, not the climate. It is not leaving enough honey for thermo regulation of heat, or hives stripped of honey and fed back sugar syrups that have problems, and or sick hives anyways. and with close to 1,000 hives now in full sun will certainly stand on that! Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 07:17:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings: further to whether eggs above the excluder turn into drones? I went to add another super on a hive last week and decided to work it a little more and have a look in both brood chambers Upon taking the honey off I got a real discovery. On top of the plastic queen excluder were about two dozen drone heads rolling around with the bodies gone except for one and that one was partially chewed Looks like somebody in the worker crowd decided to lay and eventually after hatching out they couldn't get out and expired. Make sense? Walter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 13:12:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee wrote: > we routinely have temps above 105F-110F and up to 117F > for days in a row More likely to kill the beekeeper I would think! We have had record breaking highs in the UK with temperatures here in the Midlands over 90F and that is plenty hot enough for me. I cannot imagine how you work at 110F and above - or perhaps you take a holiday? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 12:29:46 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Bee and wildflower diversity declines in... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>we should not forget all the other bees either, that we do not seem to know so much about. I think the other pollinators are certainly criticallly important where there are few honeybees. And I must say that even when there are plentiful honeybees, other pollinators are critically important since honeybees primarly focus on blooms with the greatest economical return. There are many plants that don't get a second look from honeybees that rely on bumblebees, solitary bees, wasps etc for pollination. Honeybees don't help these plants. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 12:51:05 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Queen release Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I knocked off the queen cell and released each queen directly into the hive. Would you have done the same???????? I would [although I don't have any experience with Russian bees]. I would let the queen walk out onto a frame after observing no aggression by the bees at the queen cage. The queen's scent should have spread throughout the hive. I would expect no problem since the queens were still alive after several days w/o attendants. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 11:56:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Bee and wildflower diversity declines in... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is it true that honey bees will sometimes displace native pollinators? Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 09:15:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies In-Reply-To: <003101c6af1a$6782be70$35ed6a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter writes: I cannot imagine how you work at 110F and above - or perhaps you take a holiday? Reply: Nope we have 7 yards to finish this run in the field and just took honey yesterday to extract today.Need to be done by 5 August latest, so then we can redo more equipment for more divides this fall prior to starting next round 1Sep. Actually it's easier work if you learn how to manage the heat, and are rigged right with work equip. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:52:02 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee, >>Nope we have 7 yards to finish this run in the field and just took honey yesterday to extract... What method do you use to evacuate bees out of the supers - bee escapes? Was your harvest affected by this year's drought in Arizona? Best regards, Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 14:58:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Brian_Fredericksen?= Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No one has mentioned humidity. 100F with low humidity is a walk in the park compared to 90F with dewpoints in the 70's. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 20:02:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee wrote: > Actually it's easier work if you learn how to manage the > heat, and are rigged right with work equip. Care to tell us more? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 16:23:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: D Thompson Subject: water landings In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sunday 23 July 2006 04:00, BEE-L automatic digest system wrote: >  I adjusted the filter outlet up slightly to disturb the water surface. one of the hardest flying tasks is to land a float plane on a 'glass' lake Sounds like they have the same problem -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:08:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings once more: About 3 years ago I did a temp study for my own curiosity in several hives. The purpose was to see how well the colonies dealt with day/night temp fluctuation. Using many probes and readouts that were within +/- half a degree tolerance things were plotted out in Excel One of the things that I did establish is that once the hive was in full gear , regardless of outside temps the inside was maintained at around 34-35 deg. C all the time. I learned a lot about the situation in a hive. Walter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 15:08:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies In-Reply-To: <20060724.115215.5920.396187@webmail54.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar writes: What method do you use to evacuate bees out of the supers - bee escapes? Reply: Nope....we just puff a little smoke and use a bee brush to gently brush the bees off down into the hives, frame by frame. continuing: Was your harvest affected by this year's drought in Arizona? Reply: Depends upon how you view this...so far we would say a reversed harvest, but then we have our old field logs to go back to 1988/89, 1963/64, and 1917-19, and we were taught to follow the bees and plants. Being agric and geared to whole year management and sales, you learn to roll with the flow....so far see end coming no different, though getting there a little reversed this year. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 15:18:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies In-Reply-To: <004f01c6af53$ba979340$48d46a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter, Being agric and raised that way, you learn early on when going to field to eat good high protein meals before going, take plenty of iced water and no sugar drinks, but do take fresh fruit juice and fresh fruit like oranges. You learn to take a short break every 8-10 hives or so to sit in shade and drink cold stuff slowly to cool gut so it radiates out so to speak cooling you. YOu also learn to work without lifting as much as possible, so we use a bee brush and take honey one frame at a time.We also wear a half bee suit (light nylon), sometimes just veil over shirt; gloves as needed. Then wheel everything with floor trucks, and use lift gates (tommy or eagle will do) on back of all trucks for loading and unloading. So basically, just go thru hives at a reasonable pace, with plenty of fluids, and no hard eating to get body temp up, no heavy lifting hive on hive, though in every yard one or two boxes or so is to be expected for the 1-2 needing closer looking at and even then you can peel a hive down without killing yourself ..........Then when done and home, eat another nice big meal and relax...... Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http;//groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 23:36:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: heat killed colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Dr. Marion Ellis Told me last Wednesday about the commercial beekeeper and his dead hives. The beekeeper believes the hives died because of lack of available water in combination with the high temps. Seems the only hives he did not loose were those around a large lake. Some yards in the Dakotas are not close to water. I do not really know what happened but I can say I have never heard of a similar situation. Other factors could be involved as Dee suggested. I think Dr. Ellis said the beekeeper lost upwards of three thousand hives. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 10:06:55 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike, This behaviour is called"Anarchism" and is being researched by at least 2 academic groups, including one headed by Assoc. Prof Ben Oldroyd at Sydney University in Australia. A Google search for Anarchistic Bees will take you into a whole new level of amazement at what is really going on in those white boxes at the bottom of the garden! Peter Detchon Western Australia -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 12:53:48 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>take plenty of iced water and no sugar drinks, but do take fresh fruit juice and fresh fruit like oranges. You learn Arizona has *nice* dry heat. Our NY summers are muggy with the humidity often above 90%. The only way for the body to cool itself is to perspire profusely... One does tire quickly. The more one drinks, the more one perspires... You don't feel like doing anything outside. I've found drinking a glass of water thoroughly mixed with a spoonful of raw honey in the morning, keeps me going all day in the heat. I'll need to keep drinking water [w/o honey] throughout the day to replace losses but I will not tire and will stay focused. Nothing else seems to work the same way. I suppose Getorade can have the same affect but I am not crazy about its taste. >>brush and take honey one frame at a time. This is also my method. :) What is your approach to swarm prevention and do you set up bait hives to catch any swarms that might issue from your hives? Regards, Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 06:06:48 -0700 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew Shepherd (Xerces Society)" Subject: Re: Bee and wildflower diversity declines in... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Is it true that honey bees will sometimes displace native pollinators? > This is one of those questions that will be debated on and on. Researchers have observed foraging bees, calculated nectar depletion of plants, weighed pollen accumulation in the hive, used radar to track foraging locations, identified pollen sources, but as yet I don't think there is a conclusive answer. And there probably never will be. The big problem with studies is that since the honey bee arrived in North America, it has spread to just about every spot on the continent. There is no way to measure what it was like before the honey bee arrived. Without any baseline data it is very difficult to gauge what the impacts are. Competition can occur in two ways, for forage resources and for nest sites. Forage resources is the most likely way in which honey bees and native bees compete. Certainly, a hive of honey bees has the capacity to collect large amounts of nectar and pollen in a relatively short period of time. The question is whether or not this depletion of resources deprives native bees. As I said, there is no conclusive evidence one way or the other. There is little competition for nest sites between honey bees and native bees. Honey bees need a cavity and the great majority of the 4,000 native species are solitary nesting bees that dig narrow tunnels into bare ground or occupy abandoned beetle tunnels in snag. Bumble bees are the only native bees that require cavities, so there is some chance of competition. However, most bumble bees nest in old rodent holes in the ground and I suspect most honey bee colonies will be established in rot holes in trees, reducing the direct pressure on bumble bee nest sites. (I have read that honey bees can be effective competition for other rot hole users, such as woodpeckers.) As a foot note, there is evidence that native bees will displace honey bees, at least while foraging on sunflower crops. It seems the presence of native bees makes honey bees move on more quickly, which mixes the pollen between rows more effectively, resulting in better pollination. Matthew ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society for Invertebrate Conservation Protecting wildlife through science-based advocacy, education, and conservation projects since 1971. To join the Society, make a contribution, or read about our work, please visit www.xerces.org. Matthew Shepherd Director, Pollinator Conservation Program 4828 SE Hawthorne Boulevard, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 10:57:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard A Cartwright Subject: Re: Heat-killed colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Dee wrote: "We are in a hot zone climate in S. Arizona and we routinely have temps above 105F-110F and up to 117F for days in a row and our bees do not have problems and they are in open sun and no shades." Can it simply be that the dry conditions in Arizona allow for much more effective evaporative cooling when compared with summertime humidity levels in the northern plains? D. Cartwright -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:35:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: RedSky Subject: Alfala field MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey folks, A noivce here. I saw a field alfalfa go in this spring and finally caught the farmer working in the field. I just stopped in and got permission to move my bees to his field. Now, I've got dreams of gallons of honey. Reality check! This a 20 acre field with another 10 or 12 acres two miles away. I've picked a spot between both fields that has good access, is a mile off the main road and will be in shade after 11 am. There is water within a half mile, too. What do I need to ask him? How long will the field keep blooming? Besides when he sprays the field is their anything else I need to be concerned about? How many hives does it take to maximise honey production? Thanks, Don -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 08:34:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: heat killed colonies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob, Water and heat, would be the first to look at especially if LC bees, as many down here with heat have had problems with shorter flight range for water and ability to cool, for the hive to cool is a reverse of wintering. Meaning that like with hard clustering, it takes energy and movement of muscles, to hard cool in reverse at high temperatures. Then you couple this with say muscle inhibators like coumaphos being neuro toxic, and buildup in combs, and situations can be created, with spikes in heat that bees, just like humans with thick blood then placed into hot climates have to quickly deal with, and somehow cannot. Then you couple and add into this pot taking honey, and in many cases either waiting for the bees to refill without now the extra thermo regulation each frame around a broodnest would give, or sugar feed not of caliper of honey for heat/cold control, though sugar probably fed yet, though honey could have been taken and bees are at a lot for thermo regulation help in this aspect.... In a way it's something to be said again for SC and bees that have denser muscle tissue and much greater flight range for water....besides other things in unlimited broodnest mgt like Farrar used to talk about. But I think this is the basics really above, and just sad he lost so many hives. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 08:39:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Heat-killed colonies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cartwright: Seeing we are in our monsoon season now and many times it's like walking around in a sauna bath while working I wouldn't think so. As these months are the majority of our rains for much of the year. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 08:48:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies In-Reply-To: <20060725.055416.741.300283@webmail64.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar Arizona has *nice* dry heat. Our NY summers are muggy with the humidity often above 90%. Reply: But we are in our monsoon season now. continuing: What is your approach to swarm prevention and do you set up bait hives to catch any swarms that might issue from your hives? Reply: We have bait stands of equip in line of apiaries but really don't seem to need them anymore now that we are sequenced with Housel Positioning of our frames in all equipment. The bees really don't swarm anymore like they used to now more naturally positioned. They fill and then why swarm with lots of honey and food, and dry roof? Something else has to be making them move............to us Housel Positioning corrected most all of that......... Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 16:58:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Maus Subject: Alfalfa In-Reply-To: <000401c6afe0$da0ce0d0$0200a8c0@homestead1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Don, The question you need to ask that farmer is........ "Are you going to cut this, just when it starts to bloom?" Jim Maus -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 18:00:03 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Lavender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just wondered if anyone has had any experiences in using lavender in the = house to control silverfish in clothing but inadvertently killed queens, = in cages, they may have had in the house? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Melbourne in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 06:56:31 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Fischer Alchemy Subject: Re: Bee and wildflower diversity declines in... > The value of honey bees to commercial agriculture > cannot be overstated. Yes it can. Yes it is. Massively. All the time. It is an embarrassment. It has been many times, in the oft-quoted but laughable claims made in McGregors, and more recently, in the paper "The Value of Honey Bees As Pollinators of U.S. Crops in 2000" (Morse and Calderone, Cornell, inexplicably printed in "Bee Culture", March 2000). The basic problem is that beekeepers use these claims every time they approach elected officials, even though the General Accounting Office debunked the claims back in 1985, and no one has yet bothered to offer a direct rebuttal of the GAO's clear and simple critique, nor have they taken care to bring the "accounting" in line with the points made in the GAO critique. Elected officials are aware of the wide-eyed agarianist propaganda touted by beekeepers and their third-string "lobbyists", and they try hard to keep a straight face so as to not dismay the beekeepers, who, after all, are somebody's constituents, and are not to be laughed at to their faces. They wait until after the beekeepers leave to laugh. Such wild-eyed claims tend to undercut the initial credibility of any/all individual beekeepers who might want to attempt to peddle some influence to their elected representatives with more rational statements. To make matters worse, the claims are most often blindly echoed by highly presumptuous "national" organizations with fewer beekeepers in their memberships than some state-level organizations, yet still claiming to represent "all US beekeepers". (Yep, two different groups both overtly claim to represent everyone, don't get along, don't work together, and often take opposite positions on basic issues. One is forced to wonder if they might injure themselves on sharp cheddar at their annual banquets.) For those who want chapter and verse on this, keep slogging. Back in 1976, McGregor's "Insect Pollination Of Cultivated Crop Plants" http://www.beeculture.com/content/pollination_handbook/index.cfm or http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/book/econ.html made economic claims, which were debunked by the GAO report "Federal Price Support for Honey Should be Phased Out" (U.S. General Accounting Office, August 1985) http://archive.gao.gov/d11t3/127745.pdf Which said (starting on page 8)... "USDA's Estimate Of The Value Of Honeybees For Crop Pollination The ARS Agricultural Handbook on insect pollination of cultivated crops, published in July 1976, discussed the value attributable to agriculture crop production attributable to insect pollination. In an attempt to attribute a dollar value to honeybee pollination, data. The analysis, entitled "Value of Bee Pollination to U.S. Agriculture", was published in 1983 and attributed about $19 billion in crop value to honeybee pollination. Our evaluation of this study indicated that the $19 billion estimate is misleading because it included (1) the total crop value rather than the value of increased production from honeybee pollination and (2) some crops for which producers generally do not use honeybees but rather let wind and native insects pollinate. The Crop Value Attributable To Honey Bee Pollination Is Misleading The following table lists those domestically-grown crops that are not adequately pollinated by wind and require or directly benefit from insect visits. The ARS scientist who was responsible for the table told us the crops shown as requiring or directly benefiting from bee pollination are those that have such large planted acreages that honeybees are the only pollinating insects in sufficient number to effectively pollinate them. The crops shown include those that could be pollinated by honeybees rather than those that actually are..." The Morse/Calderone paper published in 2000 http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/pdf/pollination.pdf said: "For all of United States agriculture, the marginal increase in the value attributable to honey bees - that is, the value of the increased yield and quality achieved through pollination by honey bees alone - was $9.3 billion in 1989 and is $14.6 billion today (a 36.3 percent increase). Between 20 and 25 percent of that increase is due to inflation. The rest is a result of an increased demand for pollinated food by an increasing population." The paper goes on to say: "The value of honey bees to agriculture = V x D x P where: V = an average of the last three years' value of the crop (from USDA statistics, usually 1996 - 1998) D = the dependency of the crop on insect pollination (the same as was cited in 1989) P = the proportion of the pollinators that are honey bees (the same as was cited in 1989 except for pumpkins)" So even the math used in 2000 inherently assumes that pollination is the only input required to achieve the marginal increase in crop yield and "quality", as if the farmer had no need to plant, irrigate, fertilize, control weeds, etc. A degree in economics is not required to see this as the punch line to a bad joke - one must at least admit that "increased yield" implies that the farmer would have paid more for to harvest a larger crop than he would pay to harvest a smaller one. To accept this sort of "math", one would not only have to put one's brain on hold, but also extract it from one's skull, toss it to the floor, put several 30-caliber rounds into it, and then stomp it into mush for good measure. The major contributor to "increased yield" is modern high-tech capital equipment, which, not surprisingly, requires massive capital investment, which puts farmers into massive debt, which puts them into bankruptcy if they get a run of poor growing seasons, which allows their land to be bought up by the conglomerates who then combine the smaller farms into large tracts, and hire the farmers as employees to work what was their own land. (Ooops, no they don't. They hire "guest workers" for less than a living wage in the USA, and the farmer takes the only job he can get, as a "greeter" at the Mall-Wart where the cheap corporate food is sold at "extra low prices" right next to the even cheaper food from far off places masquerading as US-grown crops.) So, "increased yield" tends to lower commodity prices to nearly the cost of production, which is a major part of what puts farmers out of business, and accelerates the triumph of massive corporate farms over smaller "family farms", resulting in exactly the sort of monocultures one sees stretching for mile after mile in agricultural areas, land with no "weedy" areas around the edges of the fields where native pollinators or honey bees might make a living when the crops are not blooming. Of course, the "good news" for large-scale pollinators is that all these massive monocultures can't possibly be pollinated at all unless bees are brought in at the proper time, and then quickly removed before poisons are sprayed, so what's good for corporate vertically integrated food production is also good for the 1000 or so beekeepers who do large scale pollination. But its bad for the bees, bad for the other beneficial insects, bad for the environment, and so on. Very bad. To summarize, the claims made about the "value" of pollination have resulted in so much sh*t being tossed at us so often that we have been forced to purchase additional fans to keep up with the load. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 12:35:43 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Lavender Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...any experiences in using lavender ... to control silverfish in clothing but inadvertently killed queens, in cages... No such experience. I assume the queens had attendants and food & water. And the temp. was reasonable. I have several lavender plants in the garden and the bees work it eagerly. Mark Winston once described in Bee Culture several compounds in lavender honey that should steer people away from it... Winston said that he plans to still enjoy his lander honey... Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 12:39:56 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>They fill and then why swarm with lots of honey and food, and dry roof? [Housel Positioning corrected most all of that...] I remember your mentioning this in the past. It's most surprising they don't feel the urge to reproduce in good cicumstances. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 08:54:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies In-Reply-To: <20060726.054035.3639.413783@webmail33.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar: It's most surprising they don't feel the urge to reproduce in good cicumstances. Reply: aaah..........used to be written that good queens lasted 3-5 years..... as for rest written...........if revisited now with proper positioning......Would it differ??? I am tending to start to think so! For full hives don't automatically swarm, they simply shut down, relax, and why leave food, and shelter and security of a good home? But then when leaving time does come, then do it and spread your genes..but somehow it seems from older hives a few years old and not newer ones needing to work and enjoy. So how much swarming is problem solving then? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 15:48:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Another BBC article on bumblebees Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5215022.stm Some of their test bumblebees flew 13 km (8 miles) to return to their nest. The assumption is that they were foraging that far away. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:25:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Forbes Subject: hive in water heater In-Reply-To: <20060726155457.33076.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear List- A local farmer has a hive established in an old water tank. There are a couple thousand bees on the outside this noon-time, fanning. Its a warm day. Some bees are even doing the waggle dance, also on the outside. I'll go back tonight to see if they've gone inside. Question- how could I get the bees and comb out of there, or even just save the queen and enough workers to start a nuc? Steve Forbes Saskatchewan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:57:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: package bees for almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To almond pollinators, In this months August, American Bee Journal, there is an article about = the great benefits of buying packages. > SHB infestation is widespread in California Not true >flew an hour earlier and an hour later than his U.S. bees and really = packed in the pollen. This is not true, Western Apicultural Society's meeting (WAS) in So = Calif this week, with data that these claims are NOT all true. >replace commercial beekeeper deadout and were used to raise the bee = populations. That's the differance between box haulers and bee haulers. >When your almond broker or grower tells you your bees are not covering = enough frames to fill his contract , what can you do besides non-cost = effective combining. First of all, if you singed a contract it's to yours as well as his = benefit, but dropping twenty five dollars a frame for packages is cost = effective????=20 >field run bees will not make the grade. and neither will 4 pound packages. P.S. Work on keeping your bees healthy and strong this fall & winter, it's = the best and easiest way to have good bees next February, and you can = put the income in the bank rather than packages. Keith Jarrett CNHONEY@JPS.NET . . -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 22:17:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Hot hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Everybody, I've kept bees for quite some time but this is the first I've had a hive so aggressive that they actually drove me away. Made the hive this spring from queens that I bought from Hawiaii. Carniolans to be exact. They start to defend the hive 10 meters away. Yesterday, I was a reversing some supers to get ready to extract this weekend and they went nuts. I returned once I retreated to obtain gloves. I've had skunk problems, sudden flow stoppages and just plain bad weather issues before but nothing that compares to this. When I walked back in the field this afternoon to check them I was met with a few bees over 30 meters from the hive. Since I was in shorts I retreated :) It has built up impressivly. Five supers on, the best out of the rest of the hives. There is no outside interference at all such as vandelism, no visual indication that anything would be out of the norm. The other hives are fine. I'm going to requeen ASAP but has anyone else seen an increase in this? I'm in south eastern Ontario Canada. Thanks Kent -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:39:41 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron & Eefje Subject: Re: Another BBC article on bumblebees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit reference: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5215022.stm Thanks Steve for that article. When I read through it I found these flaws, either by the hand of Louisa Cheung who wrote the article for the BBC or the investigating University group: For instance it was written: "The University of Newcastle-led group took some 100 bumblebees belonging to the common species Bombus terrestris and tagged some of them with tiny identification numbers". I personally don't believe that it went like that, surely the University guys took and tagged the full 100 bumblebees not just some of those 100. The fact that the accompanying photo shows a tagged bee with number 53 also suggests that at least more than 50 were used, but even around 50 would seem a low number anyway. And why were 100 selected in the first place if they were not meant to be tagged all? What could any untagged bees have to add to the study? The BBC article did not specifically state if the 100 or so bumblebees from the study were taken from only one colony or perhaps from several colonies, the only indication could be the singular form used in the sentence: "a webcam in the hive". Ron van Mierlo -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:23:13 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Hot hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I bought from Hawiaii. Carniolans to be exact. Carniolans tend to be gentle but Carniolan hybrids may not be. >>They start to defend the hive 10 meters away. Assuming the extra defensiveness is not in the genes, this is often an indication of an earlier disturbance. At this time, yellow jackets will often harrass hives and take bees, causing the hives to be on guard. If you don't have a decent flow on, lots of foragers will be idle at the hive ready for a fight. Someone could have sprayed some chemicals in the area aggravating the bees... >>When I walked back in the field this afternoon to check them I was met with a few bees over 30 meters from the hive. You did not have a banana or two just before going out there? ;-) I went to check a hive after snacking on a banana and could not figure out why several bees kept flying at my mouth and nose... Afterwards, I realized it must have been my banana breath. Bees associate banana odor with their alarm odor! Before requeening, I'd flip flop this hive with your weakest one in the early evening. You'll rid of most of the older foragers and make more manageable. My 2 cents, Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:41:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Another BBC article on bumblebees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron wrote: > When I read through it I found these flaws... The story was also reported, in less detail, or BBC Ceefax; there they referred to honeybees! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:46:08 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: hive in water heater Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>old water tank... a couple thousand bees on the outside this noon- time, fanning. In a fairly strong colony, a good portion of the workers will go outside to help keep the temp inside within a reasonable range. They go back inside if the night is cool. >>are even doing the waggle dance, also on the outside. Possibly to indicate a water source so more of it can be brought back to help cool the nest. >>Question- how could I get the bees and comb out of there, or even just save the queen and enough workers to start a nuc? Is the bees' entrance hole large enough to get your arm inside? If not, is cutting an access hole - about 8 in. diameter is big enough to get your entire arm inside - the tank an option? A Lenox blade and a reciprocating saw would help nicely. The cut-out piece can be welded back on in a few minutes. Bee vac most of the bees through the access hole. If you can reach them, gently push any remaining bees on the outside comb out of the way so you can get your bare fingers around it. If you do this slowly, moving your fingers in and out, the bees will give way and not sting. Once you have a grip on the comb tug it side to side and front to back to weaken its anchoring. The comb may rip or you may have to cut it so it can be taken out through the access hole. Repeat the procedure for all remaining combs. I've also heard that drumming will eventually drive the workers and the queen out where you can collect them with a bee vac. This will leave the brood and honey behind. Or you can spray a bee repellant (Bee-Quick or Bee Gone) at the opposite end from the entrance hole. If the vapor concentration get high enough, the bees and the queen should come out. Good luck! Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:23:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: hive in water heater MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable An easy way to get the bees out of the water heater would be to slowly = fill the water heater with water. The rising water level will drive the = bees out the entrance where they can be bee-vaced. Unfortunately this = will net bees (and queen) only, comb and contents will remain inside the = water heater. Brood will be killed, perhaps when drained again the = honey will appeal to robbers, and the drained heater will have a not = pleasant biomass inside, but time will solve that. The water heater = should eventually be sealed to avoid a repeat occurence. =20 Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:05:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: package bees for almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Keith & All, >In this months August, American Bee Journal, there is an article about the great benefits of buying packages. Thanks! I spent a lot of time contacting those different commercial beekeepers and almond growers! I listed all their names so you could contact. Please do! > SHB infestation is widespread in California Not true (says Keith) Contact Shad Sullivan (Shamrock pollination which placed around 15,000 hives into almonds) and ask Shad about when they entered and how they can be found in all his hives. two kinds of beekeepers in California today: "those with small hive beetle and those going to get small hive beetle" >flew an hour earlier and an hour later than his U.S. bees and really packed in the pollen. This is not true, Western Apicultural Society's meeting (WAS) in So Calif this week, with data that these claims are NOT all true. Big push to discredit Australian package bees. I am not sure why. Maybe I should send you a copy of the video. Not only earlier but also in the rain. The video was made by Jerry Brown (Sec. AHPA). All the beekeepers I spoke with said they flew earlier and I work with hundreds and they fly earlier than my U.S. bees. Keith says: "Bob don't believe your lying eyes" I believe the reason the bees fly earlier is in the Australian genetics. We were never told they would fly earlier before the import. Only something we observed. >replace commercial beekeeper deadout and were used to raise the bee populations. That's the difference between box haulers and bee haulers. Whatever works to get bees paid for almond pollination! I don't think you are seeing the "forest" for the trees (or past your outfit). Joe Traynor said in Australia when he spoke in May he only handled about 2% of the hives going into almonds. I really thought he had a bigger piece of the pie. What part of a % do you provide? My friend Allen Dick once said about progress in the bee business on BEE-L: "you can lead or follow or get the hell out of the way" I don't want to make an enemy of you Keith. Hopefully we can agree to disagree. Talk is cheap. Write an article for one of the bee magazines about the way you run your bees with all the secrets you use. When a newspaper reporter does an article they talk to one or two people in most cases. I speak with as many as needed until I am certain I have got the story correct. I am doing an article on the mandarin orange/beekeeper issue and Mr. Joe Traynor has provided information and support. We are on the same side. Joe still calls me "old timer" but with a smile. I write to help the industry. I contact those on the front line of the problem and report what they say. Don't kill the messenger Keith! I did not hear one beekeeper say he was not happy with the Australian package bees and rest assured I would liked to have at least one upset beekeeper to report. I was hesitant to publish Shad Sullivan was 100% satisfied. I asked Shad if his satisfaction level was closer to 95-99 % but he said . No! 100% so what I published. >When your almond broker or grower tells you your bees are not covering enough frames to fill his contract , what can you do besides non-cost effective combining. >First of all, if you singed a contract it's to yours as well as his benefit, but dropping twenty five dollars a frame for packages is cost effective???? It certainly is when when one third to half your hives are being completely rejected for almonds. You already have got trucking and other expense. PLUS the hive really comes alive with the added bees. Ask Shaun Ryan or Jerry Brown.(from my August article. Both attend California bee meetings) The supply for Australian package bees in California is at its peak. Due to limited airlines available to haul packages out of Sidney many wanting packages for 2007 will not get bees. >field run bees will not make the grade. and neither will 4 pound packages. We got $100 a package for the first pallet (see my Australian Package bees part 1) and those growers wanted package bees only the next year. I would guess two thirds of the Australian package bees sold into almonds this year were simply dumped into a hive an sent into almonds. They act like a swarm and all but the queen goes out to pollinate. Frames of solid pollen. Call those beekeepers in my article. They are not afraid to speak the truth. I left as many others out of the article which did not want their name used. Those I hope to pick up in another article. Ask yourself Keith: "If package bees will not do as these beekeepers say why would they still be buying and placing orders? Heard beekeepers bad mouthing Australian package bees? If you do tell those beekeepers to contact me as I need at least one or two to make an article interesting. >Work on keeping your bees healthy and strong this fall & winter, it's the best and easiest way to have good bees next February, and you can put the income in the bank rather than packages. You really need to go back and carefully read my spring almond article. UNLESS YOU TAKE YOUR BEES SOUTH OR INTO CALIFORNIA TO WINTER THEN ALL YOU CAN PROVIDE IS FIELD RUN BEES . You can not drop patties in and feed like you California bee feeders do. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Author articles American Bee Journal & Bee Culture Past Pres. Midwestern Beekeepers Assn. Commercial migratory beekeeper Keeping bees over forty years has done over 5000 posts on BEE-L over the years -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:01:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Williams Subject: Re: Hot hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to suggest that we be considerate of our queen breeders. I suspect all of them have at one time or other produced queens that were "hotties". Lets support them at least by not publicizing their names because you have a 'Hot bee" problem. Your supplier will likely work with you to resolve problems. If they won't help you---- well, that's a problem to swank about. JMHO George Williams Howey - Florida -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:09:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hot hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Kent & All, > I'm going to requeen ASAP but has anyone else seen an increase in this? Never! We use hundreds of kona queens each spring. Justine Danner worked at Kona for a season and he commented on the gentle nature of the bees. No AHB genetics at Kona. Aggressive genetics can always turn up but I suspect the *strong* hive reacted in defense to you for some unknown reason. Did you use a smoker? Even a single sting (leaving the smell of venom) can get a strong reaction from a strong hive with time on their hands. Requeening is the best solution for a hot hive for sure. If the hive is hot. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. When you enter the bee yard dressed as if going to the beach and the bees get upset you pay dearly. I use a "bug baffler" (sold by Mid Con)which has little aggressive bee protection and every once in awhile I need to return to the truck for better protective gear. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:01:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Hot hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Lets support (queen breeders) at least by not publicizing their names = because you > have a 'Hot bee" problem. =20 Agreed. However, in most of the "Hot Hives" posts, the original post = did NOT name names. Names came up from responders, not the original = poster. Just as all queens from Texas are not Weavers, all queens from = Hawaii are not Kona. Kent did not name Kona, others assumed if the = queen came from Hawaii it must have come from Kona. And remember, = regardless where the queens are bred, open mated queens are a crap = shoot. Unless one is paying for a tested queen or an II queen, the = product they are buying will have varing results. Hot hives happen, = regardless of breeder. =20 Aaron Morris - thinking not all queens are equal! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:33:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: Package bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob , I know Shad, I let him borrow some of my duds for the almonds about ten = years ago. As far as Shaun is concerned ask him about his hives RIGHT = NOW, and his other day time job. He sold 3000 packages to other keepers = and netted $30,000.00 from that, I would push packages too for that kind = of dough. I think what we have here Bob is a difference of in encomics and living = standards. I try to net the most out of my hives with the least amount = of effort. I do not run sub-standard bees in the almonds which I charge = a hefty price for, can you? sure you can, but my reputation means more = to me than a few bucks. Ask around this state of CA , my name is highly = regarded. I don't use excuses,i.e... the bees were in the snow, I was = too lazy to feed them in the winter, or something called the mites got = me ect, ect...if you're going to run in the almonds ,then run your bees = like a business and not a hobby.=20 The growers in my area do not like these packages (Blue Gum Rd, Modesto = CA) especially when they compare them to mine and others in the = neighborhood. I also have pictures of these singles story packages (not = good) the lids were screwed on so you had to look from the bottom side, = gee I wonder why?? Almond growers are paying premium prices for bee rentals, they should = get, and deserve, quality bees. Bob, you are a fellow beekeeper, we may disagree over some issue but I = imagine we agree more often than not. your fellow keeper , Keith`1 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:36:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Another BBC article on bumblebees In-Reply-To: <002b01c6b147$70e862b0$0100a8c0@ron> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:39 AM 7/27/2006, you wrote: >"The University of Newcastle-led group took some 100 bumblebees belonging to the common species Bombus terrestris... I believe they are using 'some' to mean approximately or about here (adv.). So I really don't see it as being incorrect in the article. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/some -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 20:23:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Hot bees... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>No AHB genetics at Kona. Aggressive genetics can always turn up but I suspect the *strong* hive reacted in defense to you for some unknown reason. Kona has an excellent reputation, indeed. It just occurred to me that this hive could have become hot after supercedure... Disappearance of a marked queen indicates supercedure [although infrequently a mark will rub off]. Supercedure means open mating after all. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 23:17:20 +0100 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all My best evidence that bees move eggs to queen cells is the appearance of a completely new queen cell on a clean dummy board at the edge of a split with cells, placed on top of the parent colony over mesh. In this case, the cell itself was started from scratch. At other times I have seen new cells appear which are sealed too early (no eggs when examined, then sealed at next examination less than 9 days later, usually 7). Both imply the workers move eggs just before they hatch, which would be the optimum time for them to do this. Since they also make up cell cups in the bottom of the super frame, they will presumably want eggs in them. james kilty http://www.honeymountain.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 23:20:35 +0100 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 2006-07-23 at 12:52 -0400, Peter Borst wrote: > My own take is: there has never been shown any evidence that workers move > eggs, though one would suppose that they COULD. Murray posted that he had evidence that not only can they move eggs but they can get them from another colony!!! james kilty http://www.honeymountain.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 19:31:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> My own take is: there has never been shown any evidence that workers move >> eggs, though one would suppose that they COULD. > >Murray posted that he had evidence I would accept an undoctored photograph ... pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:55:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Reply to Hot bees... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for everyones reply. Somethings I can answer for sure. No, there has been no supercedure. Queen still marked. This was not the only queen I purchased, just the only one that is acting in this manner. My wasp traps have no more in them then usual and I've not seen any evidence that would suggest attacks on the hives. Normally in my area this occurs more often in late August. I never did believe that the folks who raised these queens got up one morning with the single idea to make a queen that would kick my butt :) Flow is real good right now. Hugh fields of Alfalfa in bloom. The weather has been so good, farms are working on third hay cut soon. Most of my hives have 3 to 4 boxes on with the "hottie" having 5. The Russians have 4. I have never tried to requeen this time of year, always in the spring. No.. no bananas, not even a beer then :) But soon afterwards ;) Kent Stienburg Eastern Ontario Canada -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:07:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Package bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Keith & All, > I don't use excuses,i.e... the bees were in the snow, I was too lazy to feed them in the winter, or something called the mites got me ect, ect...if you're going to run in the almonds ,then run your bees like a business and not a hobby. Many of us have been renting "field run " bees into almonds for a long time. Some are on 12 frames and some are on five frames but they average out. Beekeepers in cold climates try to get the hives ready in fall and then may not get a chance to look at the hives before shipping to California. A recent issue of Bee Culture showed Brent Adee digging hives out of a South Dakota snow to ship to California. The way its been done for decades. If California almond growers/brokers do not want those hives just say so but don't screw us around after we get to California after you have been begging for hives! Many Midwest beekeepers ( like last year) feel $70 a hive is fair for those hives and will deduct any dead hives. Surely you have seen the posters in the groves by those boys? Those boys will cut your prices till they get the whole pie. Keith hives $160 for 2007 Good old boys $70 -75 for 2007 Beekeepers will cut each others throats! You may not be worried Keith but I assure you others are. Using the "new" broker standards many Midwest beekeepers actually made less last year than than in past years and many lost big bucks. > Almond growers are paying premium prices for bee rentals, they should get, and deserve, quality bees. Or Buy field run bees at less than half the cost like many did last year and take your chances. We need to get the issue fixed before Canadian beekeepers start sending hives in. I do not want to see my Canadian friends get screwed. I have looked through many California beekeepers hives and out of state hives while I have been in California doing almonds. I never saw hives like you say yours are nor any hives other than field run in the hives of out of state beekeepers. The strongest hives I lever looked at in California came from Texas to California in December ( around 10,000). I have looked at plenty of crappy California hives in singles and one and a half. The year our bees came to California by way of Texas the almond grower said he had NEVER had local bees so strong. Almonds are just one stop in many for out of state migratory beekeepers. Field run bees are good enough for all the other crops. My opinion for what its worth: Some California beekeepers & brokers are selling a bill of goods to those almond growers and the growers have taken the hook and went into deep water. If the line breaks those growers will be buying field run bees again. I don't believe you can show the almond grower the $160 hive (2007 projected fee from one California broker) however strong is worth the extra money. Good luck with that. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:17:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob & all, Crappy Calif. hives, ya we have plenty of them. I think Bob, there are = good and poor keepers all over. I don't think just because you're from = Calif. that the hives are any better. I personally think the S Calif. = Coast or Texas is some prime locations for wintering. But I do hear alot = said about 10,000 hives or 15,000 hives managed. I used to put in over = 3,000 in the almonds, I am now down to 2,000. I have scaled back = because I was loosing control of the quality and some of the bees = weren't worth taking on any longer. Who knows what this almond season = will bring, I think it's anybody's guess.There is one thing I do know, = integrity, honesty, and reputation go a long way in this business. I was = stopped by six new growers this season in the almond fields while = feeding, they wanted my bees for next year, I told them the price, it = didn't seem to matter, we'll see here in a few months if they're still = interested. By 2012 it is expected CA almond groves will need over = 2.2 million hives, I think Joe Traynor is on the right track with one = hive per acre at 8-10 frame colonies. As it stands right now there are = not enough in the United States to fill this need. But the guys that = are running those large numbers are the most susceptible to having wipe = outs before the almonds. Only in certain cases is bigger better. = Hopefully, Bob, we haven't worn out this subject as we all know there = are other obstacles to overcome in this bee world. =20 Keith Jarrett=20 P.S. both editors, Joe Graham and Kim Flottum, I believe, will have = some bee keeping and California perspectives in the coming months. So I = look forward to your Bee-L letter after they come out. You will have to = cut me some slack as I am a much better keeper than I am a writter. =20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 12:24:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Reply to Hot bees... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>no supercedure... not seen any evidence [of]...attacks.... Flow is real good right now. The weather has been so good... no bananas, not even a beer then :) Kent, We have just about exhausted the typical possibilities. Please advise if requeening will change their behavior. I have one hive that's always slightly more defensive than others. Nothing like your experience. Just a couple of bees will keep flying in my face while I work it. You'd think they are mesmorized by my *good looks* ;-))... but, if I squeeze one of the workers and there is an alarm odor, these bees will try to attack. I have changed the hive's location, changed the queens 2-3 times, as with my other hives, in the course of 3 years. It defies common wisdom but, like I said, this hive is not overly defensive just a touch more than the other ones. What else is interesting is that the most gentle hives I've had were headed by local *pure feral* queens. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 08:41:42 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Fischer Alchemy Subject: Re: hive in water heater There are three possible scenarios here: a) Bees in water tank within water heater b) Bees in insulation area between tank and skin of water heater c) Bees in both areas mentioned above. If the bees are entering/exiting one of the water pipes that lead into the water heater, then the bees are clearly in the tank itself, and you could have a large colony. If not, they may have set up shop in the area that should be filled with insulation, and you are likely looking at a smaller colony. If the bees are not exiting/entering a pipe, then I'd remove the skin of the water heater to expose the situation, as either the bees are in the insulation void, or the tank is rusted out, and they are entering the tank through the rusted-out hole in the tank skin. Heck, they could be in both areas if the tank has rusted out. If the bees are in the water tank, and blindly slicing through the entire water heater with a saws-all (available at any tool rental yard worthy of the name) is less elegant an approach than you'd like, open up and remove the "skin" of the water heater, so you only have to cut through the wall of the (inner) water tank itself. Every water heater I've ever seen has a simple one-piece sheet metal top and bottom, and a sheet metal body that can be removed without too much trouble. The top and bottom are most often held on by screws that run around the circumference of the tank, which can be removed (or drilled out, if rusted away) and pried off the main body. The main body "skin" is held on by several more screws, leaving a single seam running from heater top to bottom that can be pried apart with a flat-bladed screwdriver, a hive tool, whatever. Once the outer skin is off, one can take a saws-all, reciprocating saw with a hacksaw blade, or even a plain old hacksaw and slice open the water tank itself for a normal removal of bees and comb from the tank. Clearly, the hive would be built from the top of the tank down (depending on which way is up in the current orientation of the tank, so slicing off the bottommost area of the tank first would be advisable for a neat and tidy removal. You gotta "play her as she lies", but I would not hesitate to invert or reorient the water heater to make disassembly and cutting easier. Here's a generic diagram of the parts layout for a typical water heater: http://www.waterheaterparts.net/exp_elec.cfm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 15:10:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fellow beekeepers: Much has been posted about this topic. I opened a honeysuper today and checked it out. At the time I set it in place I was short three frames of regular foundation so I put in drone foundation. They drew it out and filled all three frames with honey and began to cap them. However on one frame on both sides were massive areas of only drone brood all capped over. There wasn't a single other brood cell anywhere else in the honeysuper. The queen excluder was a plastic one and this type has served me well . I make available to anyone the pictures I took. Pics were also sent to Dr. Ernesto Guzman at U of Guelph here in Ontario I sent pics to Peter Detchon in Australia since he brought up the idea of Anarchistic bees. Walter Zimmermann _littlewolfbees@aol.com_ (mailto:littlewolfbees@aol.com) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 18:22:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit .. If >temperatures rise above 110F, you bet your are going to have trouble, unless >they are shaded. Heat didn't kill these colonies 'beekeeper error did'. The cause of death; failure in the responsibilities as a 'caretaker living creatures' to insure a nearby water source. In a honeybee thermoregulation experiment, Lindauer placed a beehive on a lava field in Salerno, Italy, under full sun. Even though the exterior temperature was recorded to be more than 158F, Lindauer observed that the bees were still able to maintain the internal hive temperature between 93 to 95F as long as they could collect water nearby. Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 20:07:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe said: The cause of death; failure in the responsibilities as a 'caretaker living creatures' to insure a nearby water source. The only exception to the above is when a strong source of nectar is coming in. Then the bees can pull water to cool the hive from the nectar. *However* placing bees next to a water source has been rule one in beekeeping for as long as I can remember. All my yards are close to a water source. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 21:43:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Reply to Hot bees... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar I'll let you now how the requeening goes. Going to make a nuc up and introduce her that way. The other hives are fine. When the thunder storms came through the other day the Russians were a little touchy but I expected that. Other then that I sort of like them as an alternative to the Carniolans for me in this area. I just wish they would build up a little quicker in the spring. I suppose I could give them a boost. Going to extract tomorrow. Temps here are predicted to reach 29 C So I'll need a beer or two while a spin the sweet stuff :) Just got to remember.. the hot knife goes away from the fingers :) Kent Eastern Ontario Canada -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 20:44:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Keith & All, >"I think Joe Traynor is on the right track with one hive per acre at 8-10 frame colonies." Sounds good on paper. You want to count frames in every one of 10,000 hives? How about your future two million? Field run (with added feeding of both pollen patties & syrup plus culling/ combining) has always been good enough. If Joe wants to count frames in every hive he places by all means go ahead. The count can be used to gouge growers or beat down the price paid to beekeepers. I believe last year over fifty percent of hives placed in almonds were field run with no grading. if Joe wants to grade his 2 % and try for a higher fee then go ahead but the majority like field run bees. Most of us can get a picture of pollination capabilities of a hive simply by lifting the lid instead of pulling every frame. Not very many almond growers read this list so I can say: The highest pollination fee I can think of comes from crops which produce no nectar and the bees need fed while pollinating. The beekeeper charges a high price because the pollination comes at the same time many cases the beekeeper could be making a honey crop. Makes sense and easily understood by the grower. The bees dwindle on those crops so most beekeepers charge around a $20 fee to exchange out weak hives. The grower understands the issue so pays a higher fee and the exchange fee. Almonds????? Almond fees in 2007 will be three times the above and come at a time when no other pollination is going on. Beekeepers typically pollinate other crops after almonds for $10-30 in the same area ?????. When the above subject comes up at Midwestern beekeeping meetings we are always amazed at the prices California beekeeper / brokers are able to get from almond growers. I hope next year the beekeepers in my article . 1. get paid for the semi's they send as Ted Kretchman has never been paid. 2. Clear a higher fee than around $30 a hive which two beekeepers in my article cleared after they were promised $150 3. At least make expenses which Jerry Meddleson or Tim Tucker did not. Honesty, integrity & reputation may fit Keith but certainly does not fit *all* Californians dealing with Midwestern Beekeepers! Many beekeepers which got burned this year are not going back but many newbees will take their place which will give me fuel for future articles about chasing the gold in California almond pollination! Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---