From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:27:43 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.3 required=2.4 tests=AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A19B349080 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEr0C5013917 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:50 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0609B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 76903 Lines: 1711 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 08:18:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: OA and open brood. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Not fluently but you can request a link to the English-language site > from Anton Imdorf at the Swiss Bee Research Lab at > anton.imdorf@alp.admin.ch. http://www.alp.admin.ch/themen/00502/00515/00519/index.html?lang=en Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 08:33:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Ed_Geels?= Subject: Oxalic Acid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've been reading all the posts about oxalic acid and it reminds me of Apistan use some time back. I'm wondering if everyone is just creating a more super mite which eventually will be resistant not only to Apistan but also oxalic acid and then you'll have to find another chemical to try. Those people using small cell bees don't worry about any chemicals at all. Ed -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 13:21:58 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>oxalic acid and it reminds me of Apistan use some time back. I'm wondering if everyone is just creating a more super mite... As far as one knows, the use of organic acids does not select for resistant mites. Time will show if this is the case. >>Those people using small cell bees don't worry about any chemicals at all. I've been using one-piece plastic frames from day 1. Are there plastic frames with 4.9 mm cells available? Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 07:26:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Small Cell Claims In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ed Geels wrote: Those people using small cell bees don't worry about any chemicals at all. Ed Seems with all the debate and claims concerning the resistance of bees from small cell brood frames to mites that there would be some designed studies conducted which would produce emperical evidence of mite resistance instead of anecdotal evidence from observations from beekeepers. It would seem simple to set up. Dee Lusby runs a big operation and is a strong advocate of the small cell process. It would seem to be rather simple to run ten or twenty hives in the midst of her operation that would run on the current "large" cell foundation. Move the appropriate number ofbee populations from her reduced size bees to the "large" cell hives, let them breed up to the size that most of the rest of the nation is running and then record emperical evidence of what happens to those populations compared to the "small cell" bees that are located right beside them. Maybe I don't understand the complexities involved in such a study but from where I am sitting it would seem a fairly simple study to set up and conduct. And, probably it is something that I should do on my own. But right now I am involved with another study and having difficulties meeting the requirements for that study and also in the process of apiary expansion. I don't really have the time or resources to conduct another study. I especially don't have time to breed down the size of my bees that I understand needs to occur to produce bees adapted to the small cell stucture. Are there any small cell advocates out there who would be willing to spend the time and resources to conduct a valid, side by side, study of small cell colonies against regular cell colonies? I, for one, would be very interested in the results. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 11:07:48 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Small Cell Claims In-Reply-To: <20060908142616.69950.qmail@web53412.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike from Lower Alabama, In all honesty, no one outside of small cell groups seems to want the studies to succeed. If anyone provides such a study, it is torn to shreds describing how it was done incorrectly, or whatever short-comings the detractors wish to describe, however these same detractors quote tests which were done very poorly to show why it doesn't work. It's one of those no win situations. The test really is simply. Start a few (10 is good, more is much better of course) small cell hives yourself. Join the OrganicBeekeeper group, and learn how to do it properly throughout each phase of regression. Don't dispair the moment it doesn't work for you the first time of of chems, you will loose bees while you are regressing UNLESS you buy already small cell bees, then you don't have to go through the process of down sizing your bees. This dispair at initial losses is one of the reasons quoted as why it doesn't work. It takes time, it take 2 years to regress, and it takes a total of 5 years to actually LEARN how to keep bees the old fashioned ways, reading and following the bees instead of pulling them on a leash at your whim. Bees have their own way of doing things and relearning how bees follow the year is one of the MOST IMPORTANT aspects of natural/small cell beekeeping. I for one am obviously an advocate, and I think everyone knows this. However what many people may not realize is that I do not use foundation. Can you guess what the comb structure looks like? In the center of the brood nest, the cells are the smallest as small as 4.6mm in many cases. When the edges of the active brood nest is approached, the cell sizes increase gradually. Then a snap in size to honey stores with most drone brood occuring on the 2 or 3 transition frames between total brood and total honey store combs. I also keep bees in top bar hives, so the brood nest is in the front of the hive and the honey stores toward the back. There are small cell advocates willing to do the study. We are doing the study by actually living it, and its working for us, we are growing in numbers of small cell beekeepers and the numbers of our colonies. I have about 380 active hives right now, all on a foundationless system. I started the year with 500 packages, but had a VERY POOR VERY COLD installation season. Freezing weather the day the packages were installed for a minimum of 2 weeks, and a month of rain here in Iowa. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 16:33:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: OA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>>>>I OA trickled my over wintering nucs. I killed nearly 70% doing so. I don't think they had a cleansing flight afterward... Wow, Mike, that must have hurt! I'm in Calif, and the bees have always been able to fly when I've treated. I'm very curious as to why you suffered such a disaster, since we have seen nothing of the sort. >>>>>OA in nucs is a great way to start relatively mite free colonies. >>>>>It's also good for treating unknown swarms. Waldemar, we also use it when doing "shake and bake" of AFB colonies. Anyone, I don't know if you've checked the TLV's (threshold limit values of vapor) of oxalic, but the vaporized gas is pretty hot stuff! The TLV of oxalic is 1mg/cubic meter. For comparison, the TLV of formic acid is 9.4mg, for acetic acid 25mg, for ammonia 17mg, chlorine gas 1.5mg, hydrogen sulfide 14mg, hydrochloric acid 7.5, benzene 1.6mg, and toluene 188mg. I arbitrarily listed some dangerous vapors for comparison. If one is vaporizing 1.4g of OA per colony, and half of it vaporizes, then you've created enough vapor to make 700 cubic meters of air dangerous (that's about a 50ft square house!) That's per colony treated! Am I being too cautious? There have been a number of formic acid inhalation injuries and deaths, is OA vaporization in the same risk group? The websites Mike referred to say it's safe, but I'm curious. Anybody have a better handle on just how dangerous vaporizing OA into hives on a large scale is to the beekeeper? Will one good accidental breath kill or seriously harm you? Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 19:47:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: OA In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-C273103 > Anybody have a >better handle on just how dangerous vaporizing OA into hives on a large >scale is to the beekeeper? Will one good accidental breath kill or >seriously harm you? I've vaporized my colonies for the last two years. Since the hive is closed...holes taped, and entrance closed with foam...not much vapor escapes. I always work from the upwind side, and haven't had a problem with vapor. I've tasted it a couple times...can't imagine how you could actually inhale it. Handling the hot vaporizer is where you might become exposed...so wear a mask at that point. As far as getting the acid on yourself, it is simple to handle. Keep the 2 gram scoop clean, and no problem. Or...wear gloves. It has to be easier to handle than OA syrup, or liquid formic. Mike -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/436 - Release Date: 9/1/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Bee Warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Plenty of AHB in the LA area. In fact the website for removel of feral swarms for LA county said last year 80% tested AHB. Not to worry as the State of California assures its residents that AHB will not keep moving three hundred miles a year north and stay on the Mexican side of the border! California wants to keep a lid on the AHB as its the *only* reason they have been able to keep Mexican beekeepers out of the almond groves. Plenty of small hive beetle in California also. California package producers want to keep a lid on the problem also. The reason has to do with Canada and the movement north illegally of packages. Did the list know small hive beetle origin can be found out by dna? The hive beetle found in Canada when tested by dna did not come from Australia. Opps! In Australia you can not shake packages from hives with even a single SHB and there can not be hives with a SHB find within 30 km from the hives the bees are taken from. Sure a SHB might come in but so far none of the pallets shipped have had the load marked as having SHB on board. In the U.S. however you can shake SHB into packages without a problem. Hobby beeks blame the migratory beekeeper (which is OK as most have got broad shoulders) but the spread into most areas came from packages ( documented into Missouri from Georgia packages). In 1987 varroa was first found in packages ( a truck load of packages) which were not destroyed but sold to beekeepers. Varroa was going to happen so I would not have destroyed those packages either. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 22:05:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Davis Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Waldemar asked: >I've been using one-piece plastic frames from day 1. Are there >plastic frames with 4.9 mm cells available? In my recent Bee Culture, Page 24, there is an ad for 4.9mm ID fully-drawn plastic frames. Don't know if that is what you wanted as it is part of an "High-Speed extraction system. Bob Davis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 06:41:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: treatment options in absence of capped brood Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:49:26 GMT, waldig@netzero.com wrote: >I collected one colony from a house a while ago that had loads of >varroa. (The first varroa infested feral colony for me ever.) I >gave them a virgin queen from my 'preferred stock.' At this point >the colony's brood has emerged and the new queen started laying >several days ago. Hi, I thought I'd share some thoughts regarding Waldemar's situation. If you're at a stage completely free of any capped brood, it seems like you have a lot of options (oxalic acid probably being one, but something I don't really know much about). One option I was wondering about was if you just sacrificed the first couple frames of brood to get capped, maybe froze them and returned them. Wouldn't almost all the remaining varroa mites be pretty eager to reproduce by now and so invade the first available brood to start getting capped? I'm not necessarily recommending this, but thinking it might be a straightforward possibility. Another related question is if you took a natural mite drop on this colony about a week after such a colony started capping brood (before any of it started to hatch), would you get a really falsely) low count? It seems such a dynamic could really skew the accuracy of some mite drop tests. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 06:45:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: breeder selection and varroa-related indications Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 13:04:54 -0400, James W. Hock wrote: >The Queen mother survived a bad Varroa infestation (no treatments) and still produced a large crop. Jim's choice of queens struck me because my inclination has always been to avoid queens whose hives developed bad varroa infestations. I wonder what the thoughts of others on the list are regarding the desirability of queens whose hives tend not to develop bad varroa infestations relative to queens whose hives survive bad varroa infestations. What do you all look for and what trait carries more weight? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 05:22:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Canadian Buckfast Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings all, For several years I have been trying to get Canadian Buckfast queens. I've endured a host of excuses and red tape, border closures, customs regulations, etc., only to come up empty. Finally, I have my Buckfast queens. I obtained them from Munro Apiaries for my fall splits. Rachel Bannister was my contact and she was the best. They are prompt, shipping through UPS Ground went well. I am very pleased. There are other Buckfast queen producers in Canada, but Munro is the first one I found that was able to deliver what they promised. No doubt there are others up there that can, but I sure couldn't find them. Contact Rachel Bannister at rbannist@hotmail.com tel: 519-847-5333 www.munrohoney.com I pass along this information as we've talked about this topic some time ago. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:41:18 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Small Cell Claims MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Small cell is part of the whole. It is NOT the ONLY thing changed, it IS the FIRST thing changed. There are 3/3rds of the program. Environment, Nutrition and Genetics. They all go hand in hand and augment either other, no one thing being complete without the other slices of the pie. Cell size falls into Envirnment, and effects nutrition and genetics. It effects nutrition by broadening available floral sources. This in turn effects environment again, because flora not previously taking advantage of a larger array of bee visitation are now being pollinated more regularly and so the environment develops which further increases nutrition again. Cell size DOES do one thing directly, however it doesn't effect all queen lines, and this is where genetics comes into play. Small Cell Bees care for brood differently. When mites are present in small cell worker brood cells, small cell worker bees will open the cell, and kill the mites (and the bee pupae as a result). This is the beginning of the genetic pie. Not all queen lines will do this and so they will not be as productive as lines that do, whether they die out or not, the smart beekeeper is not likely to split from this hive if they allow a weak hive to continue or not. Genetics also involve how well the bees adapt to their environment and the seasonal ebb and tide, and whether they can deal with natural extremes in the environment, poor seasons, cold winters, hot summers, dearth and drought, etc etc. The queen lines that can't handle these things will as before remain weak and therefore not intentionally propogated if they are able to even survive. It's a "whole" beekeeping ideology and method, not just one thing or another. Small Cell is one of the names of the "whole beekeeping" methodology, however cell size is ONLY the beginning, but it's the most important part of the program as the rest will only come because of it. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 02:26:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: breeder selection and varroa-related indications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Jim's choice of queens struck me because my inclination has always been to > avoid queens whose hives developed bad varroa infestations. I wonder what I'm just a backyard beekeeper. Ok, two back yards. Perhaps I have been reading to many articles by Dr. Larry Connor and Kirk Webster. But, I am watching my neighbors lose their hives to Varroa and give up. Around here, there are not many beekeepers left. My bees have Varroa, they will always have them. I'm not looking to clean out the mite. I want my bees to rise up and evolve with them. I don't know what good my little experiment will do for the beekeeping community. I'm working in a limited space with limited resources. Maybe I should apply for a grant. In my quest to push evolution along, I need my bees to live, suffer with the mite and breed. I have not just picked good queens to graft from. I look for good queens and try to graft off their great grand-daughters,... this year. I raise a limited number of queens, bank them, then use their eggs to raise a new generation of queens. I repeat this process as many times as I can. All under Varroa pressure. The queens that do not do well are weeded out of the gene pool. I flatly refuse to give the bees a hard chemical treatment. Still, if I do nothing, I won't have any bees to experiment with. I have several passive IPM strategies to hold the mite population. I am guessing it will take the bees twenty years to cohabitate with Varroa. I'm shooting for 2008 for my bees, if they live. A side benefit to my backyard experiment is a rapidly growing apiary. I keep setting aside to make up for the hives I expect to lose, then those hives bounce back. My main problem this year was not Varroa. My apiary out grew my property and my mating nucs kept getting robbed out. Next year I will be a backyard beekeeper in three back yards. Spring will bring me my results. Either the some of my hives are going to die, or I will have to split them. So far, I have not lost a hive. Perhaps, I have already found my answers. My hives are strong, my bees seem healthy. I am defiantly doing better than most. Maybe the answer to Varroa is not to breed a better bee, but your actions in the pursuit of one. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 08:35:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Small Cell Claims In-Reply-To: <000c01c6d482$98ba9700$0400a8c0@workstation> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >It > effects nutrition by broadening available floral sources. This in turn > effects environment again, because flora not previously taking > advantageof a larger array of bee visitation are now being > pollinated more > regularly and so the environment develops which further increases > nutrition again. MMmm - some pretty interesting logic there. Got any data? Like, floral surveys of an area before and after small cell use? Or is this simply an assumption? I am not saying that this doesn’t reflect what is going on, what I want to know is if you know this, or just *think* this. >When mites are present in small cell > workerbrood cells, small cell worker bees will open the cell, and > kill the > mites (and the bee pupae as a result). This is the beginning of the > genetic pie. Not all queen lines will do this and so they will not > be as Mmm - my understanding from what Dennis writes about his experience is that all bees he tried seem to do better on small cell. Not just certain lines. Maybe I am wrong he can certainly speak for himself, though I know he is currently apostate with regards to the small cell group. > It's a "whole" beekeeping ideology and method, I think it's the idealogy part that trips some folks up. Makes it sound like a religion. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 08:36:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Small Cell Claims In-Reply-To: <000c01c6d482$98ba9700$0400a8c0@workstation> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > In all honesty, no one outside of small cell groups seems to > want the studies to succeed. This is incorrect. I know of no one who wants the studies to fail. I know lots of people who think the studies published to date are hokey. I know people who feel strongly that a decent study will vindicate SC, and those who feel strongly that they would not. But I know of no one who wants them to fail. Problem is no one seems to want to do the work or poney up the resources to it. SCers included. When pushed to produce the requisite hives and such for a decent study, someone will pipe up and say "I don't need proof - I know it works" And then promptly suggests that this circular logic is sufficent to bow out of doing anything of sunstance. Jim has aked for years for some hives. Jim, anyone send you enough for a study? > If anyone provides such a study, it > is torn > to shreds describing how it was done incorrectly, or whatever > short-comings the detractors wish to describe, however these same > detractors quote tests which were done very poorly to show why it > doesn't work. It's one of those no win situations. Interesting - I see it a little differently. Both sudes of the issue do this with abandon. Typically I see the most study bashing from the small cellers, and we wind up back at the point where unless one is willing to accept that simply because some folks claim it works, one is deemed as asking for an unreasonable level of proof. I have yet to see a decent study that definitively proves or disproves the efficacy of small cell in reducing the incidence of any of the pathologies that SC is said to mitigate. Both sides of the issue discount the studies. They should, they are rather poorly designed and really do not tell the tale, the whole tale and nothing but the tale. There are SC disciples who will take largely unrelated studies and twist them to the point that a pretzel would appear laser straight by comparison. Quite frankly I have rarely met a group of people with a more selective attention to only those details that fits their paradigm. If you disagree you are apostate and just don't "get it". > The test really is simply. Start a few (10 is good, more is much > better of course) small cell hives yourself. Incorrect, take a peek into any grammar school science text. What you describe above is not a test, it is a hobby. If you are going to test, i.e. experiment, with the notion of being able to make a conclusion you will have a control group. Otherwise you are fairly likely to be lead down some meandering garden path of bogus apparent causality. > Join the OrganicBeekeeper > group, and learn how to do it properly throughout each phase of > regression. Indeed - follow Dee's recipe to the letter, deviate one micrometer from the dogma and said "study", if it fails to hold SC up as the end all be all cure for swarming, mites, foul brood and the like, will be shunted away as a ploy by those chem loving apistan doping junkies. Of course if it supports small cell you will be the next prophet of the church of small cellology regardless of your methodology or scientific rigor. > There are small cell advocates willing to do the study. Name one. > We are > doing the > study by actually living it, This is not a study; this is merely the generation of more anecdote. And I am sure you know that the plural of anecdote is not data. Anecdote is a nice jumping off point, but just cannot be used to prove/demonstrate much of anything. Dee’s self-reported success simply means that at the time she did what she did, she had the outcome she did. Period. It does not mean that had she done something else she would have had better, worse, or equivocal results. It is one gigantic anecdote. Nice for her if she is happy with it, but lets see it for what it is. > and its working for us, we are > growing in > numbers of small cell beekeepers and the numbers of our colonies. I have recently seen some rather wild claims about the actual numbers of dedicated SCers and participants of the “organic beekeeping” listserv. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 12:33:13 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Small Cell Claims In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith, So you are saying because small cell beekeepers who are successfully keeping bees and say they don't need proof (and I can't think of too many beekeepers who can have surplus and spare resources) who are successfully keeping bees on small cell without chems are bowing out of anything of substance. So does that mean that our success isn't substantial? Hmm, I can think of many people for whom merely maintaining numbers and operating without continuous inputs is substantial. In fact, this is the basis that banks make their decisions on, does this person or entity show profitability or at least nothing more than a negligeable chance to go bankrupt. I can't afford to ship off 50 beehives. I need them, if Jim wants to do the experiment, then why can't he just use some of his hives for the experiment, or are they also too valuable to him??? If a car runs without failing over a period of time, one can say it runs without having to "scientifically test" the theory. It may be anecdotal, however it is an irrefutable anecdote. There are several small cell beekeepers these days, some small some large some very large. I know of several who do not wish their names to be printed alongside or in association with small cell or Dee Lusby or even Scot McPherson, and who can blame them really? Who would want the aggrivation? I don't...I put up with it, and Dee put's up with it, but we don't like the type of attention we get, but we deal with it. Are our individual successes within the group anecdotal evidence, sure...but just like my car, it runs well without being scientifically tested to see if it does... Dee's success wasn't the result of a single effort as you seem to believe. Dee and Ed tried many methods to remain off of chems and drugs, she had severe losses during the trials of her efforts, and the successful result occurred after many years of trying this, and trying that until a mix of successes blended into what is documented on beesource.com/pov/lusby/. Are Dee's efforts the only source of whole beekeeping? No certainly not. Dee isn't a master among disciples, she has learned a great deal from our efforts, opinions and successes as well. We as a group contribute together the same way Open Source Software requires the contributions of many to grow. In open source software, someone comes up with an idea for a new software offering, they author the initial software, sometimes only as much as a toy, others are recruited to help the package grow, other people try it and make comments and suggestions or report bugs and errors, and it continues to grow. The Linux/Gnu marriage is a well documented success story in collaborative effort. No one person takes all the credit, the credit is shared among all those who've contributed. It is the same here, I have made my observations which initially differed from Dees, some of my opinions I have shifted more to those of Dee's and some of Dee's have shifted towards some to mine. As many? No, she's been beekeeping far longer than I have. However I still have been keeping bees since 1985, and I do have some worthy opinions. And yes, I believe I know the wild claims you are talking about...I "assume" the claims you mean are mine, and they are Dee's however the reason we can make those claims is because there are beekeepers on all ends of the size of operation spectrum which do not wish to become targets or martyrs for anyone, they just wish to keep bees in peace. Again who can blame them, however I know who they are and Dee knows who they are and we communicate with a lot more successful (and beginning) whole bee or small cell or natural comb beekeepers than you can probably believe and it keeps us very busy. Some of them don't have internet access at all either, but some do. However their numbers remain, and the group grows, it grows in individual colony strength, it grow in numbers of colonies kept per beekeeper and it grows in number of successful beekeepers. Just because I am not willing to put someone else's head on the chopping block, doesn't mean the numbers aren't there. I am sure there are just as many Small Cell Detractors that also aren't willing to stick their heads out either. Funny though that this wide spread success is discounted because its merely anecdote. I wonder if my car really doesn't work either, because its working well is only evidenced by everday anecdote. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:00:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: Bee Warning In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Bob Harrison Said: Did the list know small hive beetle origin can be found out by dna? The hive beetle found in Canada when tested by dna did not come from Australia. Opps! To set the record straight: The DNA testing of the small hive beetle found in Alberta showed that the DNA of the beetle did not match the two known haplotypes of the beetle in the USA. Therefore, the beetle source can be either South Africa or Australia. Due to no beetles from these two sources were analyzed for comparisons, the source of Alberta beetle (Australia or South Africa) has net been identified yet based on the DNA. Further survey of bee colonies in Alberta and Manitoba showed that beetles were found only in colonies installed with Australian package bees imported in 2006 and possibly in 2005. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 22:57:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: breeder selection and varroa-related indications Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I'm just a backyard beekeeper. Ok, two back yards. Me, too. And I need a third, too. I completely lost three colonies to robbing in the last month, so I've also got similar problems. >I'm not looking to clean out the mite. Me neither, at least not completely. Perhaps I should explain what I do and maybe a little of how I got there. This is only my third year with a significant number (10+) of my own hives. (I've worked for other beekeepers full-time and kept just a few bees on the side previously.) In 2004 I put a lot of time and work into treating hives with indications of moderate to high mite numbers with sucrocide. I wasn't impressed with the sucrocide, but I think my cautious efforts, combining, and a healthy dose of good fortune were what brought me through that winter without losing a single one of my 39 hives. I was glad not to have lost any hives, but I figured I had probably been more cautious than I needed to be. Maybe I could have brought more colonies through if I hadn't combined them in the fall. Maybe I could have spared myself the time and mess of some of those sucrocide applications. So I set out to test my thresholds in 2005. Mite loads were also a lot higher in 2005. I took natural mite drop tests (again) on all my hives. I basically let everything go without treatment. I lost 40-45% of 50+ hives. Some of those were probably late splits that never built up well enough, hives I should have combined. Of the normal strength colonies, I didn't lose a single hive with fewer than 55 mites per 24 hours in early September, here in the North Carolina foothills, nor did I notice any disadvantage the following year. (I lost almost every hive with counts above 55.) Meanwhile, I've only bred from colonies that first caught my attention for vigor and productiveness and then survived without any treatment. I've replaced every queen that I felt the need to treat. So what I'm suggesting is that mite resistance might manifest itself in one of at least two ways: (1) bees might keep mite numbers down or (2) bees might withstand a given mite level better. The practical advantage of breeding for #1 is that I can survey mite levels, disqualify some hives for breeding purposes, but still carry them over (by treating) to the following year when I can requeen them. In other words, I can select for mite resistance without having to lose so many colonies. Incidentally, 90% of my 50+ hives have might levels well below my supposed 55 threshold this fall. I drone trapped on about 20% this year, but that leaves 70% that are presumably good to go having done nothing special. Although most other beekeepers don't test as extensively as I do, if at all, my rough impression is that most other hives in the area are about like mine this year. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 01:45:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Bee Warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, The source of my information was by phone from Australia two nights ago. The source said the SHB find in Canada had not been confirmed by DNA as coming from Australia (although Canada has been quick to point the finger). The fact the SHB was found in a hive which originated from an Australian package proves nothing. Especially if the packages were installed in 2005. The U.S. news release said a single hive beetle had been found. Was it a single SHB or many beetles? As I said before Australia is a big place and the SHB finds have been in areas away from the queen rearing areas. Could the SHB have came in an Australian package. Possibly but not one shipment I know of from Australia has had the form checked saying SHB was found in the hives the bees were taken from or the packages. The largest Australian package shipper into Canada (and the source of those packages) has NEVER had a small hive beetle find in his bees! Lets make sure before we point the finger! How did the first SHb come into the U.S.? Brought in by researchers? Kidding but a theory put out in beekeeping circles. "What we don't know is so vast it makes what we do know seem absurd" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 11:28:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: What to look for "Chewing out of Varroa" from 1997 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/lusbyjun.1997.htm Concerning chewing out varroa We have had several beekeepers want to know how and what to look for, to see if their worker bees are chewing out and/or removing varroa mites from infested larvae cells. This is what we have told them to look for. Here in Arizona, you will see this chewing out of varroa mites on the downside of the honey flow. It will start slowly as the queens stop raising drones, pick-up speed as the drones are expelled from the hive, then taper-off just prior to brood nest cleansing time. By the time the brood nest is resituated and cleaned by the workers, with the pulling out of old larvae cocoons and reshellacked, you will find varroa mites down to a non-detectable level in most cases; and under control by the workers. In Arizona, we see it happening approximately twice a year with the primary chewing out season in the Fall. Other times you will see it occurring in spurts and will be right after requeening, when the hive workers are throwing out drones and getting ready to roll again. You will see it mostly around the edge of the brood nest of sealed worker cells, although it can occur as a buck-shot brood pattern in weaker hives or in a strong hive where large numbers of mites are transferring from drone to workers. Look for uncapped worker brood with the pupae exposed and in many cases cannibalized. If there was only one varroa and it was located on the head between the eyes, many times the pupae will be unharmed, as the worker bees have only to remove the mite to rectify the situation. If the varroa is on the back of the head between the thorax, the worker bees will eat the head off to get to the varroa. If the varroa and/or another is on the thorax, they will eat down to that also. If the Varroa and/or more are located on the abdomen, lodged with the tergits, the bees will continue eating down. You will notice that when the worker bees are doing this and working only with removing varroa mites from healthy bees, the pupae will be a healthy white color, which shows that the worker bees are not removing diseased or infected larvae/pupae. When the varroa is removed from the top of the head and the pupae left unharmed, you will usually notice that the pupae are at a stage of purple darkening eyes. The bees seem to chew out the varroa when other chores of the hive are not pressing i.e. honey gathering and major brood rearing. Until then, the varroa mainly infest drone larvae and pupae. Thus the drones, although they do no work physically in the hive, do act as the best attractant by body mass and therefore a better basil food target, to pull disease and parasites to themselves, so workers can survive throughout the active season by raising vital brood and gathering stores or honey and pollen. Then as the season winds down the drones are thrown out, the worker brood acts as a living liver in the hive purging the overpopulation of varroa mites to bring it into a balanced parasitic mite host relationship similar to Apis cerana in Southeast Asia. Each new brood rearing season, the cycle starts again. Check of sealed worker brood, not uncapped by workers, have revealed non-infested pupae by varroa. When you see this, you know that your bees are doing what they should to handle the problem. Caution: Do not confuse this phenomena with starving bees that need pollen and or honey or both. These hives were not starving and had plenty of stores in them. Beekeepers must learn to see with their eyes and understand the difference. If you look close, you will see which types of queens and characteristics to recognize, to know by body color and conformity. that your bees can handle mites. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 19:11:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bee Warning In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Medhat: the DNA of the beetle did not match the two known haplotypes of the beetle in the USA. Therefore, the beetle source can be either South Africa or Australia. Reply: So can you go into more the origins of two haplotypes of the beetle in the USA......if not matching now? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 19:28:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Small Cell Claims MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Scot, Keith and all: small cell worker bees will open the cell, and kill the mites (and the bee pupae as a result). Reply: Since both of you touched on this........let me say the small cell worker bees will open the cell, remove and kill the mites and save what bee pupae they can. This has been gone over and written in description in ABJ even for others to read "as chewing out varroa scenario and what to look for". Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:02:10 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Bee Warning In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, No one pointed the finger. You jumped up and down and said, "see, it wasn't us", medhat merely corrected the known facts. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 13:13:01 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: breeder selection and varroa-related indications Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>My apiary out grew my property and my mating nucs kept getting robbed out. This year I had one mating nuc robbed out since I did not stock them with enough bees. I expected the virgin queen had been killed. I was surprised to find the queen and her handful of bees. I guess the robbing bees only want to get the honey... Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:52:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Bee Warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Scot. The U.S. news release said the SHB find came in from Australia. Sooner or later SHB will find its way into Australia package producers hives and will be an issue. Medhat and myself are only presenting the facts as we know right now. Has not the list learned from our posts? An article being published by two California beekeepers in October says about Australain packages that they are "free of varroa but not small hive beetle". Not true ! No package shipment sent in the U.S. or Canada has had the form checked as containing SHB to my knowledge (and information I recieved three nights ago). The form has all items the countries have asked checked for on the form. Only those present are checked. I live in Northwest Missouri and we have never had a small hive beetle find in the hives of Busy Bee Acres Apiairies inc. or Bell Hill Honey Farm. One year all the hives were inspected four times by various inspectors! Hives from these operations have been going into California each year for a long time. No beetles brought back. Other areas of Missouri like the bootheel and the St. Louis area have got plenty of SHB. Eventually the whole state will get SHB I suppose but for now our area is SHB free. LIKE AREAS OF AUSTRALIA! My honey house (HH)is full of supers to be extracted this week which have been in the HH for up to a month. No SHB! Outside are some deadouts which SHB could not resist! No SHB! I have been sitting out pallets of extracting supers with a small amount of nectar or honey to be cleaned up by the bees before going into the storage container. Some have had brood in before. No SHB! I am actually suprised at us not getting SHb before now since the first SHB finds were over five years ago! In Australia some package people might not get SHB for another five years. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:18:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: Bee Warning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At this point will small hive beetle survive in Canada? Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 07:48:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bee Warning In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob: Possibly but not one shipment I know of from Australia has had the form checked saying SHB was found in the hives the bees were taken from or the packages. Reply: Well if it "has had the form checked" then you know how paper filling out goes......, but still SHB could have been (here we go again) at non-dectable levels, FWIW. Then once in Calif, well, the SHB came from hives in the USA and transferred over......of course. But very glad to see they like AHB can be ID to PROPER origin. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:20:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Bee Warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dan, Even if the SHB gets established in Canada I do not see ever becoming a problem. California imported thousands of hives infested with SHB from the east coast sell out of a very large commercial beekeeper in 1998. SHB can be found in those hives but have NEVER caused a serious problem. I know because a very close friend sold the hives and another friend bought the hives. The major players in California simply say: "two kinds of beekeepers in California. Those with SHB and those going to get SHB". In my opinion only queen breeders which refuse to go to 4-5 frame nucs instead of using the old mating nucs (and a cup of bees) will have problems. Last season a friend queen breeder complained as he has 10,000 very small mating nucs and only 200 five framers. I told him three years ago he better start thinking of dumping the small nucs! In short a cup of bees can not protect brood comb from SHB no matter how small the entrance. I have watched the SHB problem closely ever since I drove to Florida in 1998 to see up close the *first* documented case. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 19:42:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Bee Warning In-Reply-To: <002401c6d5ad$2c3c36c0$6401a8c0@DanJan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-33CD1B3F > At this point will small hive beetle survive in Canada? It survives just fine in northern Vermont Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.2/442 - Release Date: 9/8/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 15:39:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Bee Warning; SHB In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote:One year all the hives were inspected four times by various inspectors! ......but for now our area is SHB free. I am actually suprised at us not getting SHB before now since the first SHB finds were over five years ago! Bob, We have small hive beetles in my location. I have had SHB in hives in my yard in the past year or so. When the state bee inspector inspected my hives early this summer he could find no evidence of SHB. Why? I had gotten in contact with a company in Georgia who was selling nematodes that supposedly attacked the SHB in its larval/pupation stage in the ground. I bought their product but was unable to innoculate the ground with the nematodes until sometime in May when we finally got enough rain to get the ground pretty wet. Annacdotal evidence only - I believe that this innoculation very effectively attacked my infestation of SHB in that particular yard. If the company remains viable I plan on buying more innoculation packets and reinfesting my yard and any other yards that I open up. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:58:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Robert J. Bassett" Subject: Nematodes for SHB Control In-Reply-To: <20060911223908.64689.qmail@web53415.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike and Friends, Please tell us more about the nematodes you found for the hive beetle infestation. We are getting eaten alive here in Florida. Robert J. Bassett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 23:24:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Bee Warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike, Is the SHB a problem or simply found in most Vermont hives Mike? In California SHB can be found in those hives brought in in 1998 but not in near the numbers. 10-20 SHB were on each frame in "98" but now maybe only 10-20 found in the whole hive. Those with the SHB in California consider SHB about like wax moths. Deadouts can be a problem if left in the field. California is trying to shut the gate after the horse has left the field cconcerning SHB! Many areas of California do not have any bee inspectors. Tens of thousands of hives enter and leave California without paperwork or ever being inspected each year. If California really wanted to inspect all the million hives they would need a 100 times as many inspectors to even make a feeble attempt. Researchers are riding the SHB bandwagon for all its worth. The beekeepers blaming SHB the most for their woes (used to be the weather)have got other issues with thier bees also . Contaminated wax and varroa out of control. If they had strong hives SHB would not be an issue in my opinion. One of the largest beekeepers the world has ever seen told me the best way to fight SHB is to keep strong healthy hives with varroa under control! Not some damn roach chemical in your bee hive to prevent SHB infestation in a weak and dying colony! The " California Almond gold rush" has caused many commercial beekeepers to double & triple their hive numbers and like stacking domino's the whole thing is falling down for many. One beekeeper actually forgot he had a yard of around 600 hives (which he had not looked at all year). He ordered a crew to bring in hives to the yard and the foreman called to say the yard was full of hives. The owner of the hives looked over at me ( I was in his office)and said he might have too many hives. In California we had a holding yard we put hives in which were left by out of state beekeepers whcih forgot those hives. I hauled 72 hives to the yard which belonged to Perkins Honey Farm myself as Doug was already in Talow locations in Texas and had not missed the hives! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 01:06:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: breeder selection and varroa-related indications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Although most other beekeepers don't test as extensively as I do, if at > all, my rough impression is that most other hives in the area are about > like mine this year. I don't. I did, now I just monitor. Breeding aside. I owe a debt to a local side liner. He tells me that he requeens every August with his own queen cells. The advantages are many. During the break in the brood cycle, Varroa bottoms out. You go into the spring with fresh queens that lay up a storm. The risk of swarming with fresh queens is cut in half, over using a two year old queen. When you raise your own queens, you know what you are getting. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 06:27:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Bee Warning In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5535BF2 > Mike, >Is the SHB a problem or simply found in most Vermont hives Mike? The problem is in the honey house. I used to be able to fill the hot room with supers to be extracted, and extract on rain/cold days. No more. 3 or 4 days is about max on leaving supers in the hot room. After that, I start finding beetle larvae and slimed combs. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.2/442 - Release Date: 9/8/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 07:36:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: breeder selection and varroa-related indications Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric Brown wrote: ..I wonder what >the thoughts of others on the list are regarding the desirability of queens >whose hives tend not to develop bad varroa infestations relative to queens >whose hives survive bad varroa infestations. What do you all look for and >what trait carries more weight? Hi Eric, I have never selected queens based on varroa levels or the ability to survive bad varroa levels, I do however select them based on over all performance. The overall performance is a reflection of a colonies health, regardless of the varroa levels, and this approach is working very well for me. Here’s an interesting article by Steve Sheppard related to your question: ‘Selection and possibilities within honey bees – be careful what you are selecting for‘. http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=480 Best Wishes, Joe Waggle http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 08:49:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Bee Warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike, The honey house will always be a problem when SHB is present. I could fill pages of posts on possible solutions but the first is to not bring the SHB in with supers. Easier said than done. Second is the hot room. Once you crank up temps both moths and small hive beetle go into the egg laying stage. Third has to do with honey house humidity. Most beekeepers are simply dealing with the SHB/honey house problem but key to SHB/honey house problems solutions are the above. The best solution in Florida (besides pulling the honey in the morning and extracting in the afternoon) has been a bright light in a corner to which SHB is drawn and then the SHB is killed. Solution I have been considering with SHB: I am thinking of a commercial dehumidifier liked used to pull moisture out of overseas containers on ship. Can pull the humidity down to 10% in a short period of time. If you enter the area without a mask you get a nose bleed. Would bring the moisture out of the honey quickly and believe would effect the SHB but only something I have been thinking about. Has members of the list information on the use and dangers of those type of commercial dehumidifiers? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:55:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Bee Warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 08:49:44 -0400, Bob Harrison wrote: Has members of the >list information on the use and dangers of those type of commercial >dehumidifiers? > I worked in a "dry room" where lithium was being proccessed for making Lithium Ion cell phone batteries (Lithium reacts violently with water) . Humidity levels were in the range you described. This was a large Fortune 500 company that had an in-house Occupational Safety Group so most hazrds were well documented and mitigated. Anyhow the only precaution was wearing a cloth face mask to minimize the dehydration. I believe the reccomendation was 8 hours a day was max to spend in that room. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:06:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Greg Brown Subject: Re: Bee Warning In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Honey house humidity can easily be dealt with using a ceiling fan, a residential dehumidifier (in the south a window AC unit is needed also), and a pallet setup that allows for air flow through the stack of supers. To stop shb egg hatching you need to get the humidity in the supers below 50%. An added benefit (maybe) is that it will lower the moisture content of your honey. It also seems that migratory beekeeping is less susceptible to shb, picking up and moving hives causes the shb to flee the hives. I have seen graphs showing the spread of shb along the Interstate 95 corridor. Although Bob's friend didn't have many problems with shb, I know several beekeeper's who made sure that they moved their hives out of an area prior to Bob's friend moving his, a lesson they learned the hard way. Because of the humidity issues, I don't believe a lot of California bee/queen rearers will have the same problems, or at least to the same extent that their South Eastern US queen rearers have had with shb. If they are going to, it will show up quickly with the Almond pollinators, as shb "love" pollen supplements. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:21:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Bee Warning In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My experience with a commercial dehumidifier is good, keeps the SHB form laying eggs for over a week honey house at 80F (40F DP), Be sure to drink plenty of water as you loose a lot of water due to evaporation. The only down fall is any honey on the extraction equipment turns to taffy and is hard to remove. Any open honey is also more difficult to extract. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:04:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Bee Warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have access to a walk-in cooler and thought I would store supers there until ready for extracting if we developed a SHB problem here in Minnesota someday. I would think at 35F that no egg hatching would occur nor would crystallization be a problem either. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:49:14 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steven Goldate Subject: larvae in honeycomb? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Folks, I am a newbie', in fact I haven't statrted beekeeping yet, but am seriously considering it. I have a rather 'dumb' question. When harvesting honey, are there eggs, larvae and adolescent bees in the honeycomb that have to be filtered out? Thanks for any help, Steven Goldate -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 23:53:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jeff Stevens Subject: Re: larvae in honeycomb? In-Reply-To: <5DA5C1835BB4C844A31E4E9A30BFFCE0346B54@mercury.Internal.aasb.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 2006-09-13 at 10:49 +1000, Steven Goldate wrote:Hi Folks, > I am a newbie', in fact I haven't statrted beekeeping yet, but am seriously considering it. I have a rather 'dumb' question. When harvesting honey, are there eggs, larvae and adolescent bees in the honeycomb that have to be filtered out? In general, no, eggs and brood don't have to be filtered out from harvested honey. With a tiny bit of encouragement, honeybees store ripe honey *above* the brood nest. That is why supers are added to the top of a hive. There is an organized structure within the hive. Brood, ripening honey, capped honey, pollen, etc. all have their place within the hive. Most introductory beekeeping books will have diagrams of the 'typical' hive layout. I wish I could be as organized as a hive of bees! In practice, honey should be filtered. Having only a few hives, I use a simple double sieve as most hobbyists do. The first one filters out large chunks of wax and possibly a bee part or two. The second filters out the finer pieces of wax. Commercial producers use higher quality filters but for a hobby a double sieve is just fine. -Jeff -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---