From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:29:46 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.2 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B69EB49092 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SF1MMO014128 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:50 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0609E" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 66151 Lines: 1570 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:23:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: Bee warning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My personal observation is changing location or bottom board on a hive and even moving to another yard does not clear all SHB from my hives here in Georgia. My experience is that SHB are attracted to hives that are stressed by removing honey and excessive manipulations. I have also observed beetles relocating to freshly hived feral swarms within minutes of shaking the bees into their new home and this continuing for several hours. I've also had the experience recently of having several SHB landing on me as I rendered my beeswax...they are readily attracted by scent of hot beeswax it seems. Jerry Wallace Atlanta, GA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 21:07:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: Bee Warning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brain & all, I could not agree with you more, well said. > I'm tired of the attitude by some commercial migratory beekeepers that > their way of keeping bees and making a living somehow is more > important for the good of American then other beekeepers who do not > want to deal with "another" foreign pest. Brain, My self and Randy have a in-depth article in Oct issue of A.B.J on almonds and how to get your bees ready for them. We hope you all get some good info from this story Keith Jarrett. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:26:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Winter Bees In-Reply-To: <20060928210225.29952.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, "...now with 4 or more mites..." Without getting into discussion about how to control mites - the answer is to ensure that mites are kept by a chosen method at such limited numbers to allow for adequate numbers of healthy brood. Is this a example of a politicians answer? Regards, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:40:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Winter Bees In-Reply-To: <20060928211857.71976.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, As I am sure that you are aware - Royal jelly and Worker brood food have different consistencies. I do not know - but it appears that certain metabolic processes undertaken by summer bees lead to the usure of a genetically controlled life length. I wonder if the absence or reduction of such processes slows the burning of the life fuse, stops it or reconstructs it - only to be rekindled and consequentially shortened to eventual final extinction later in the following spring. I am a simple beekeeper and as such would dearly welcome more researchers to publicly partake in forums such as this one, in the name of educating me. There are a few brave souls who appear to avoid the pitfalls allied in voicing their knowledge in public. To them, many thanks! Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:48:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: DDT In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, Thank you for your comments. Relating to label instructions: I suggest that label instructions attached to biocides are there for diverse purposes. To guide the end user into a more responsible mode of application, thus reducing the possible negative impact of novel molecules on the biosphere. To reduce the chance of legal complications falling upon the head(s) of the manufacturer(s). To limit the possible hazards a user opens themselves to during use of such products. Problem is, as you elude to, humans are involved. Instructions are not followed, understood or are ignored. Treated cereal seed with clear instructions to destroy packaging are left in fields, as are pesticide containers. The seed itself according to instructions must be buried to specified depth - only to be viewed in redundant piles again in areas where spill has occurred. Look into the multitude of "land tips" on private farm land - they are littered with various types of container leaching material into the local aquifers. One could continue "ad infinitum" with historical and present day gaffs. This jaundices my trust for the future when statements such as " things are better controlled nowadays" are flown. Especially if such statements are backed up with " .....as far as present day knowledge indicates.......". Being truly applied, this is possibly the ultimate let out clause. Beekeepers - use Checkmite (Coumaphos), then do what with the used strips. There is no organised method of recycling to ensure proper disposal after use. Historically the answer to disposal included dependence on natural dilution of toxic matter. That or destruction into some other form that was / is considered less harmful that the original material. The planetary condition is witness to the consequences. As you mention - tightening of regulations and procedures has reduced some problems that occurred in the past. I suggest that this has only occurred in jurisdictions that are tightly constrained - in many other regions this is not the case. Cash and profit have a loud voice. Once the molecules are released into free for all environment - we find it most difficult just to follow where they go, never mind attempting to follow the web of metabolite activity. Therefore regulations with built in safety factors may sound convincing but are often sitting upon the quicksand of vast unknowns. So, do we let the poor die? Where is the change? - its being happening for millennium. Taking Malaria bearing mosquitos as an example - it is not really believed is it, that they are going to be eventually wiped out! I suggest not - and after resistance appears, we will be left with an even more contaminated world with an increasing malarial problem. A gain of a number of years. Hindsight is laughing at human effort. It was known that dependence on toxic molecules was doomed to failure via. the ever present enemy of resistance. So, why not put more into novel techniques of approach (and my let out: Don't ask me what they would be because if I did I would not be sitting here doing this). Beekeeping is running the same historical line regarding control of AFB, Varroa for two simple examples. Keep on upping the dose, toxicity to fight the evil? Even that is running out on us. My opinion is that as a species we cannot go on polluting our home and something has to give. Yikes, this could get involved .........better stop here. Regards, Peter PS: Lloyd your mails are always read, thoughts and opinions respected. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 01:19:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Bee Warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Jerry & All, I agree switching to new pallets and moving does not clear all SHB. I think you would agree Jerry that once SHB is in your area they are not hard to find in even a strong hive. I don't know what part of Georgia you are in but I have looked through hives within 10 miles of the North border all the way to the south border. I rate small hive beetle as a minor pest of beekeeping except for honey house problems. I drove to DeLand , Florida in 1998 to look at the first SHB situation. When SHB first hits (or any pest) the situation looks bad but then beekeepers and bees adapt and life goes on. My friends in Georgia & Florida consider SHB about like they do the wax moth. My friends in South Missouri & Texas are having a tough time dealing with SHB the last two seasons but are starting to get a handle on the situation. Ray Batton ( Missouri boot heel) tossed in the towel the first season he got SHB. Every time a new pest hits some quit beekeeping and every time the price of honey goes up or pollination fees increase others come in to replace those which left. Times are better (although some will not admit) because for years in the 80's honey was around .37 to .41 a pound ( U.S.)in drums. A high pollination fee was 25/35 dollars. Many beekeepers left beekeeping. I started beekeeping over forty years ago. Back then the only real issue was american foulbrood (which was easily controlled by two different controls or burning). Still many beekeepers quit. Most new commercial beekeepers are well informed and don't really know how easy beekeeping was in the old days. I am impressed with some of the new generation of beekeepers. They realize the main truth about beekeeping. Even a bad beekeeper can be successful as long as he puts in the hours. You need to know when to work from morning till night ( or dusk to dawn) and when to pick up the fishing pole and leave for awhile to clear your head. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:31:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bee Warning In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > I am impressed with some of the new generation of beekeepers. They realize > the main truth about beekeeping. Even a bad beekeeper can be successful as > long as he puts in the hours. You need to know when to work from morning > till night ( or dusk to dawn) and when to pick up the fishing pole and > leave for awhile to clear your head. > and in another post > Did border controls stop tracheal mites? > > Did border controls stop Varroa? > > Did border controls stop africanized bees? I always enjoy Bob's posts because they inform. I noticed, back when Tracheal was the problem /de jour/, that new beekeepers took them in stride while many of the "set and forget" beekeepers dropped out. Same with Varroa. That is not unusual, since you are trained for the environment you are in, and not what was. The abnormal becomes the norm. As far as border controls go, usually if you the "follow the money" you will find the real reason for any controls. Sometimes they are legitimate, when there is an ocean acting as a border, but not when the States or countries are contiguous. Then controls seldom have anything to do with keeping a pest out, since the pest is usually there or almost there. It has more to do with the protection of the local industries from larger or more efficient outside sources. In beekeeping, this is classic when the advocates are hobby beekeepers or "organic" beekeepers. We (since I practice both), will fight to keep the "bad" commercial beekeepers from violating our space and bringing in all sorts of bad stuff that we probably already have but are too unobservant or ignorant to recognize. The local commercial people use that ignorance to protect themselves from competition. I saw that up here in Maine with the closed Canadian border and the "protection" of the Canadian blueberry pollinators from US competition. Varroa was already there but protection was put in place anyway. >From casual observation, it looks like the same with SHB and California. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:02:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Bee Warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith, Randy & All, Don't get a big head but you guys did do a good job on your article. Randy did let me read in advance and I thought part one was well done. Randy will tell you I did not suggest changes. In fact Keith we are considering getting one of those home depot machines like in the pictures to make pollen patties and ditching the cement mixer! Randy said you made two modifications to the machine. Mind telling us what they were so we don't have to reinvent the wheel? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 18:01:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Brian_Fredericksen?= Subject: Re: Bee Warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:48:50 -0400, Bob Harrison wrote: >Brian, >What part of "thousands of hives in California contain SHB" do you not >understand? > >Did border controls stop tracheal mites? > >Did border controls stop Varroa? > >Did border controls stop africanized bees? > >After over 50,000 hives were sent into California containing SHB over eight >years ago and the SHB is established in California. What is turning a load >for a single dead SHB all about? > Bob your overall message just sounds so self serving. So I and other non-interstate migratory beekeepers should roll over and let interstate migratory beekeepers do what ever they want ? Cause there's nothing we can do? Sounds like a lame excuse to me. Its a shame that beekeeping has come to this sort of nonsense just so a minority of beekeepers can make some sort of living from it. We are sacrificing much for the benefit of a few.....its not fair and IMO not right . Like why should I care if the almond people overplanted with no plan in mind for pollination other then shipping bees from 4 corners of the world and inadvertently helping to screw up the rest of beekeeping for the majority of beekeepers? How long before we have a half a dozen foreign critters in our hives? Its not like all problems in beekeeping are the fault of interstate migratory beekeepers. But no one can argue that they don't help move the problems along at a greater speed. I don't see them offering any solutions either. The way this is going I'd like to propose and see a new National beekeepers organizatioin formed that represents the interests of the non-interstate migratory beekeepers. I'm tired of having a few represent the masses. I'm tired of hearing there's nothing we can do.......IMO there would be more glory in finding solutions that last beyond a lifetime then bringing in bees from Austrailia or advocating a free for all in interstate movements...all for what could be a short term gold rush in almonds. Let me suggest that these are tough times in our industry and we need leadership that reflects all beekeepers interests and not lame excuses that are self serving. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:26:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Bee Warning In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote:Migratory beekeepers paid for quarentine stupidity (while the package shippers kept shipping packages with tracheal mites, varroa and now SHB) Quarentines did not stop AHB! Added to what Bob has written above, it is my belief that AHB genetics have been shipped by the package bee and queen bee producers that continue to ship open mated queens either by themselves or with packages and are located in areas that are infested with AHBs. I think that has been going on for more than a few years now. When, and if, I order packages or queens I will check to see if the producer is located in areas that lie within the AHB infested areas as indicated on current maps depicting the spread of the AHB. There are some producers with very good reputations and very good bees, but open mated queens in AHB areas will be a no-no for me. Mike in Alabama They aren't here yet but I'm afraid it's just a matter of time. --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1˘/min. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 20:44:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Bee Warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Brian & All, Sorry if I touched a nerve! I hope we can agree to disagree. I do believe you are missing the big picture with this statement: " Its a shame that beekeeping has come to this sort of nonsense just so a minority of beekeepers can make some sort of a living from it" Maybe the Chinese or Argentines which send honey into the U.S. (which the public grabs up despite the banned in U.S. antibiotics)will pollinate the crops when we are all gone. Pollination is the big issue here! If U.S. beekeepers can not do the job in California then the Mexicans from south of the border will. I am as serious as a heart attack. Almond growers are going to get bees. Supply and demand. One grower privately told me they could pay up to $500 a hive and still make money when almond prices are up. They are spoiled because of years of low almond pollination fees. Migratory beekeepers will play by the rules until its time not to play by the rules then they will drive around those checkpoints and move bees in refrigerated trailers. Exactly like when borders were closed for tracheal mites and when varroa first arrived. They will look through their rolladex for the driver they used in the past which drove around the checkpoints. If you think migratory beekeepers are outlaws then you should see some of these independent drivers with their own riggs. Moving bees around checkpoints for a higher fee gets their attention. Every truckstop sells an atlas for around $25 which shows the route to drive around every scale and inspection point in the U.S.. I get calls all the time from migratory beekeepers wanting me to plot a route for them from my copy. Kind of like beekeeper mapquest. He He. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 18:01:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Cell sizes in Russia etc, was: Ferral Bees [Frame Sp... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all: I sincerely hope the moderators post this email for me for I believe it needs to be in the archives of the BEE-L list here. Especially as discussion of Nosema causes relative to bigger combs and bigger spacing are in progress, besides worsening of parasitic mites and accompanying secondary diseases. This was posted today by me in reply on the Organicbeekeepers 29 Sep 06. Regards, Dee A. Lusby ---------------------- My my Predarg, this is interesting reading and most certainly different from that found in old archive writings, some of which are posted here for reading thru. http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/celldata.htm It seems like Russia then kept going forward then from the Apimondia XX International Beekeeping Jubilee Congress held in Bucharest, Romania in 1965, and further and further away from natural smaller cells workers build brood in. I also see the authors you quote below also say like Polish professors did back in 1965 "Statistical analysis showed that in the range of both types of bees there is a regular increase in the size of the honeybees from South to the North for every degree of latitiude - 0,010 mm for type 1 and 0,096 mm for type II. The correlationfiltered=0.589." Of course the Polish professors went on with more detailed changes of the bees from south to north also. and we also know that these changes also relate to changes in altitude. But it seems that with bigger comes problems of interaction with a natural environment and it's pests, predators and diseases too.......of which mites is a major player today, both for the damage it causes in itself in shortening the longevity of our honeybees, and secondary diseases they vector into bees as they eat. It shall be intersting to see in coming years as to where things go for our world wide industry for those that then follow Russia, and hopefully those that follow going back to more natural SC for clearing up problems. I am very glad you zeroed in and posted this Predarg ....... If gives some insite into what has been happening and what is going on, and should/will go on in the future years to come! Regards, Dee Predarg writes: Dee wrote: >Okay, now this brings up the question: Why did Russia just go to 5.6mm sizing >which is bigger then industry average of 5.4mm in USA which would now mean >wider spacing and bigger bees? >When did Russia turn around from natural sizing?........ and also, if there >was endless discussion it was in Europe then, and not the USA, if one flips >thru USA magazines like Bee Culture and American Bee Journal, as in the 1960s it >was when foundation was sized up over here to 5.4mm after trials in >Europe......... Dee and All Maybe it could be interesting for you: 1) An information from Russian beekeeping journal "Pchelovodstvo" 2005/8 Russia changed their GOST standard for wax from January 1st 2006. A paragraph about foundations for regions in Siberia had been added: 5.6mm. There are not information about foundations for other regions - I can suppose it wasn't changed. 2) Here are some quotes from the book: "Poluchenie i ispolzovanie produktov pcelovodstva" ("The Production and Use of Bee Products" - my free translation) N.I.Krivcov and V.I.Lebedev, Moskva, 1993. The authors say that wild bees build worker cells 5.12 - 5.66mm diameter, depending on the race. For North Russian bees, that are the largest ones, their average worker cells are 5.56 and drone cells 6.98 Smaller gray mountain Caucasian bees - their worker cells are 5.46, drone ones 6.69 N.M.Glushkov (1956) has measured worker and drone cells throughout the Russia and the results were: Siberia 5.55 (worker cell), (6.63)? (drone cell) (? - my remark) Central European part of Russia 5.43 (6.99) Far East area 5.43 (6.76) Ural 5.39 (6.99) Southern Russia 5.25 (6.93) The authors make a conclusion that a diameter of worker cells increases when we go from the South to the North and say that it is not valid for drone cells. On the basic of those data, Glushkov recommended three types of foundation: for Siberia and Northern areas: 5.55 - 5.60 for Central areas, Ural and Far East: 5.45 - 5.50 for Southern areas: 5.37 - 5.45 In this book the authors also say: However nowadays for all areas the same dimensions: 5.30 - 5.45 are in use. Maybe their knowledge/accesible information about situations in other countries (at that time when Russian beekeepers use 5.30-5.45) could be interesting: USA: 5.28, France, Yugoslavia: 5.30, Czechoslovakia: 5.35, Poland: 5.3-5.6, Germany: 5.4, Romania: 5.41, UK: 5.4 for frames in hive boxes and 5.7 for supers. Regards Predarg __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:04:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: breeder selection and varroa-related indications Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric Brown wrote: >Joe, you said you don't select for the ability to survive bad varroa >levels, but you're not intervening to "save" hives either, are you? Hi Eric, I don’t intervene at all to save a colony, they are combined, requeened quickly when I see a colony that performs poorly. > If you're letting hives die from varroa mites, I would say >you're selecting for some combination of abilities to keep mite levels low >and/or survive with higher numbers of mites. Numbers of colonies dying from varroa have steadily declined for me over the past 5 years. I haven’t had a colony die of varroa for about two years now. Could just be a good year, but this season I don’t detect any mite pressure what so ever, and only occasionally see a mite or two. All my colonies are caught from the feral population and are on natural cell sizing. The problem is with catching ferals is that they need to be assessed before you can integrate them. Also, the performance can vary widely, and it can be difficult to tell the bad from the good until much time has been invested in assessing them and waiting to see how they perform. I have a system of assessing ferals that enables me to rapidly assess the colonies in order to limit the time invested in assessing each colony allowing me to free up needed equipment. I place ferals I trap OR catch in my poorest forage location, here it becomes very easy to tell the best from the worst. This first assessment phase lasts from colony initiation on thru till the end of the first active season (a total of approximately 18 weeks after the colonies are established). During this initial assessment period, I may eliminate an average of 40 to 50% of these ferals due to deficiencies in colony growth or other reasons. At the initial assessment stage, I am mostly selecting for colony growth, fecundity and over all health. You may recognize the quote “Fecundity is an essential prerequisite for any exceptional performance, and adequate fecundity must be bound up with a series of other essential characteristics of economic value“. So here I assess fecundity, and management characteristics first, and then move on to include traits of economic value. By the end of the season, it becomes obvious which colonies have traits essential for productivity and the out performers really stand out above the pac when assessing bees in such a poor forage location. From here on out, colonies are moved to an out yard and assessed here on out for overall performance. >What I'm trying to say is that I'm sure selecting for overall performance >works, especially in the absence of intervention, but I wonder if you might >not be able to make a lot more honey by making some very marginal >sacrifices with your breeding program (if you wanted to). That is a very good point, and you are right! What specific sacrifices would you be referring to? Basically, I do select for overall performance, but… being a collector of feral bees what I was faced with in my breeding is a complete rebuilding from the ground up. And because I do not treat my bees for anything, I need to balance my breeding equally with traits of survival and traits of economic value. At first when rebuilding, I had to select strictly for survival characteristics. And when I finally managed to get the bees surviving varroa and thriving on their own, I then turned to selecting traits of fecundity with a major focus on hygienic behavior, brood viability, Queen performance and productivity etc. I now have colonies that a very populous and with most colonies exhibiting brood viability above 98%, this has resulted in increased productivity across the board. I’m not sure where to go from here, but I look at where the bees are lacking to determine this. Now I am looking at focusing again toward improving traits concerning industry, spring build up, early comb building etc. Some of these traits could not have been selected earlier due to the priority at the time in establishing traits fundamental to the overall health of the colonies. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA EcologicalBeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:16:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Honey Helps Problem Wounds - Article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "A household remedy millennia old is being reinstated: honey helps the treatment of some wounds better than the most modern antibiotics. For several years now medical experts from the University of Bonn have been clocking up largely positive experience with what is known as medihoney. Even chronic wounds infected with multi-resistant bacteria often healed within a few weeks." 'Honey Helps Problem Wounds' http://www.physorg.com/news73233240.html Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA EcologicalBeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 18:26:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Winter Bees In-Reply-To: <451CA063.1000202@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter: Is this a example of a politicians answer? Reply: A most fine example I would say, especially since with 4 or more you get life shortening at 50% or more, and also bees produced that never see nurse bee duties, or housecleaning duties, let along foraging duties. Yet they are there the hurting/deformed consuming attention and stores like other invalids many animal families have to contend with, humans included. One just has to choose the path they wish to take based on how they see life and wish to keep bees upon. regards Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 18:44:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Cell sizes in Russia In-Reply-To: <20060930010119.67942.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote:This was posted today by me in reply on the Organicbeekeepers 29 Sep 06. Predarg, ... authors you quote below also say like Polish professors did back in 1965 "Statistical analysis showed that in the range of both types of bees there is a regular increase in the size of the honeybees from South to the North for every degree of latitiude .... I"m no scientist, but from what I've read in this post and understand, it would seem that the further north (colder) one goes, the larger the worker bee cells become. Did I read amiss here? Mike in LA --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 18:44:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Winter Bees In-Reply-To: <451CA3CE.5070904@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter: As I am sure that you are aware - Royal jelly and Worker brood food have different consistencies. Reply: Aaah yes, for that of the queen vs that of the worker and even that of the drone. To see it noted so nicely the difference in worker brood is good. But in seeing it here so written for worker brood by you, then what is time frame in the actuality of Spring/Summer vs Fall/Winter queens and drones also? And bearing upon hives; and/or how approached by varroa? Just what is there in Aug-Oct time frame that is so different from the one firing up in the spring relative to the plants the bees forage upon? I know the JGH is more as season goes on and in fall it is much higher.........but are there other components involved? and where are they mentioned and written about? Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgnicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 18:51:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: bee warning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian, Very well said again, I think what you will find here is beekeepers, some even old, way behind = the curve. I have got many e-mails on this pollen feeding-almond article = (OCT A.B.J) I co-wrote with my good friend Randy. Many crying beekeepers with no bees in their boxes from last year are = now wanting more info on how I feed pollen and my recipes, imagine that. = I think maybe even survival mode is in place at times.They can only see = the sort term with no long range plan. I do not know one CA keeper that has small hive beetle. I've talk to = many keepers for my A.B.J report most are friends and not one has it = (75,000 hives). I think their self interest is more important than the industry. It's funny to listen to others, as out-staters flooded the almond market = and made a good size mess of CA and then leave.Then they cry about = getting back in. Well enough said, for those of you who get the ABJ please take the time = to read our article on almonds. Thanks to all P.S If you want to stop aids, do you try to slow the spreading while you = hunt for the cure or do you stick your head in a bucket of sand and hope = it goes away. Keith Jarrett CA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 19:15:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Cell sizes in Russia In-Reply-To: <20060930014415.65893.qmail@web53411.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike: Yes, size changes going north, like going south from the equator to the poles, and from sea level to higher altitiudes. It also has a range relative to small, medium, and large breakout within each race. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 04:23:27 +0200 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Cell sizes in Russia In-Reply-To: <20060930014415.65893.qmail@web53411.mail.yahoo.com> > I"m no scientist, but from what I've read in this post and understand, > it would seem that the further north (colder) one goes, the larger the > worker bee cells become. Did I read amiss here? Yes. Published allready 1920 by V. V. Alpatov (father of the bee morphometry) \vov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 02:03:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: Re: Bee Warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>>So I and other non-interstate migratory beekeepers should roll over and let interstate migratory beekeepers do what ever they want ? Every time we California beekeepers move from our "safe" home yards to almonds, it's like playing roulette--we never know what new pest or disease we're going to bring home. Kinda like going "unprotected" to a sex orgy with strangers each year! Due to migratory beekeepers seeing only their own self interest, new pests move clear across the North American continent from Florida to California in only a single year! Even if we know we are eventually going to get something, does every single beekeeper in the whole country need to become infested in the second year that a new pest makes an appearance? Randy Oliver Calif -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 08:44:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Honey Helps Problem Wounds - Article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Strange Crop Circle Found in Minnesota http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/business/15643737.htm -Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 09:19:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: bee warning In-Reply-To: <001301c6e432$fd702240$00df8304@wendyf10934cd0> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit K&W Jarrett wrote: > I do not know one CA keeper that has small hive beetle. I've talk to many keepers for my A.B.J report most are friends and not one has it (75,000 hives). http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/mussen/5-6-01.pdf#search=%22california%20%22small%20hive%20beetle%22%22 Well, the Department of Entomology at Davis in 2001 found SHB in California. That was five years ago. And not one dropped off the truck or colony? Interesting that the article says why they may not be a problem in CA, because of the soil and temperature. Until I went around the State of Maine with Tony Jadczak I thought there was no SHB in Maine, but he showed me otherwise. Just reinforces my post that we are really talking about money more than protection. Bill Truesdell (whose bees have never had Varroa, Tracheal, SHB, AHB, BVD's, PDQ, DDT, or halitosis and I dare you to prove otherwise.) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 09:35:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Cell sizes in Russia etc, was: Ferral Bees [Frame Sp... In-Reply-To: <20060930010119.67942.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let em see if I understand this. Natural cell size increases with latitude. So, here in Maine, it would be unnatural to go to 4.9, but something like 5.2 or higher would be natural. But if I do not go to 4.9, then it is unnatural? And if I go to larger cell size, which is natural for my latitude, I condemn the bees to death by Varroa and other pests. But the larger cell size is natural and natural is good since that is the size best for the bees to combat Varroa and other pests. I thought that 4.9 cell size is the natural cell size, as posted often on this list. Obviously, both my bees and I are confused. Well, at least one of us is. Bill Truesdell (I must need a larger house, since people cells should also increase with latitude.) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 09:37:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bee Warning In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > > The way this is going I'd like to propose and see a new National > beekeepers organizatioin formed that represents the interests of the > non-interstate migratory beekeepers. > > The Luddites beat us to it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 11:09:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Cell sizes in Russia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike Stoops wrote: >I"m no scientist, but from what I've read in this post and understand, it would seem that the further north (colder) one goes, the larger the worker bee cells become. Did I read amiss here? Hi Mike, The 'remote ferals' (honeybees remote from other domestic beekeeping operations) I collect here in SW Pennsylvania will have worker cell sizes ranging somewhere between 4.9 mm and 5.0 mm OR ocasionally just above 5.0 mm Cell size map: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/therm_map.htm Joe Waggle EcologicalBeekeeping.com 'Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 10:19:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Cell sizes in Russia etc, was: Ferral Bees [Frame Sp... In-Reply-To: <451E72AC.5040609@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Actually no Bill for what you wrote in assumption. They don't really go that big in most places except in honey cells, nor that small except in brood cells,and extremes seen doesn't necessarily mean good either. For then Nature culls out those that don't do well, as with bigger that don't fit one's local area acclimitization has to be done, and following the bees; and those that cannot adjust properly are then lost on the evolutionary chain, as parasites, and predators, and secondary diseases come in, to get rid of what doesn't fit! Same with smaller. This is why beekeepers have to be careful to not go too far in either direction and get out of tune with their honeybees. Sizing up was definitely done and how? Well, to resay from the 1965 era of Romania..." Experiments with a large cell honey-comb in the conditions of the Socialist Republic of Romania (5.65mm) show that a large scale introduction of such honey-combs represents an important reserve for the increase of the bee-hive's productivity in all sectors. To this aim it is necessary taht the honey-comb should be build up first - during intense harvesting - in other colonies or in the respective colonies for honey-storage, and only afterwards it should be used for broodrearing." This unfortunately is what happened in the USA and elsewhere. Combs drawnout in honeysupers were interchanged into broodnests over time with many beekeepers not attuned to what was actually happening... What this says.....and happened.......is that honey storage/drone cells were then fed into the broodnests to size up our honey bees.......and this was carried out worldwide in the quest for more honey production by countries and commercial beekeepers....but actually it was not! It was a red-herring trick on our poor honeybees! How? By optical illusion to us beekeepers. For you get less bees in a broodnest then, that have to expand out using more equipment to get same numbers of honeybees to do the work, and then in needing one cell of honey, one cell of pollen to also make a bee, it requires more equipment for honey storage, that WE THEN TAKE perceiving more honey, because we got more bees, seeing more space used, which is quite the opposite from what is really going on. Then on top of it we start getting out of balance with Nature and pests/parasites come in and problems then started like chalk brood, and foul broods across a spectrum, besides the mites and SHB now in mass expanding and more threatening. Yet, to get smaller you then have to feed into the broodnest to size down, by drawing combs in the area you actually want to work with them. Then of course you can take the smaller and smaller and use to go to extremes also. But thankfully bees left alone swarm out and restart new homes and adjust to what they want. So today many swarms come out of beekeepers colonies and in the feral state start regressing for what they want. Probably in the future they will swarm out and if too small will probably start retro-gressing bigger for want of another word to go slightly bigger to fit their local areas for acclimitization....... Mainly, what we need to do is simply follow the bees' needs to come to a harmonious state where they are happy and healthy and leave it be. Perhaps this is why we only regressed down in steps to finally come to middle ground in the spectrum of natural cell sizes, and didn't use cell walls to see what the bees themselves wanted to do. Then once regressed down, and with retrogression in breeding undoing the multi-complex bees established in ones area, you let them be and simply follow the bees so if they want to go slightly smaller you let them and/or slightly bigger you let them, for in each area you get small, medium, and large caste bees in all breakouts of workers, queens, and drones that then gives you local variability to work with for managing your bees in both breeding and production. As to size north to south Alpatov wrote in 1929 (not 1920) that there is a variance of 2% for each degree of latitiude thereabouts, and this is like splitting hairs in a way for the minute smallness in size difference it really is. Also it means that 4.7mm in the mediterranean area would to get to 4.8mm take several latitudes all the way up to the Nordic states to pass the 60th parallel, and is why the variation of comb is not that great as perceived/spoken about. Mainly it is the differece in worker vs drone that is perceived instead by most beekeepers which is a wrong assumption!!! In the end, to survive with food production we as beekeepers will have to learn to follow the bees and their needs, not ours if we are to eat! Other then that get out the paint brushes for food pollenation. Also, I really want to thank Predarg for his courage to post updates since the 1960s that many of us have had no access to, so more information can be put into the puzzle so we can solve problems our bees are facing, and talk Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 11:07:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Cell sizes and Climate In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "J. Waggle" wrote: The 'remote ferals' (honeybees remote from other domestic beekeeping operations) I collect here in SW Pennsylvania will have worker cell sizes ranging somewhere between 4.9 mm and 5.0 mm OR occasionally just above 5.0 mm >From the posts lately sent, from general observation and not scientifically proven, it would seem that the mass of worker bees increases the more the colony is subjected to cold weather, whether it be latitude induced or altitude induced. ASSUMPTION: The more mass a worker bee has, the better it is able to withstand colder temperatures and thus fly in cooler weather and better enable the colony to survive. Albeit that would expose the developing bee to a greater degree to infestation of varroa mite as apposed to the smaller cell bee (according to the small cell proponents). ASSUMPTION: The colder your climate, the bigger your worker bee needs to be to maximize honey production. The warmer the climate, the smaller the worker bee needs to be (dissipates heat faster from a smaller mass)l. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 15:07:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: breeder selection and varroa-related indications Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Eric, Since we are talking breeder selection: Here is an article from a study done by Tarpy and Seeley in the link below. It is rather interesting to me because it comes at a time when I have been emphasizing in my breeding an intense selection to increase my brood viability in my colonies. I have been seeing low brood viability in my coloneis which although testing above an acceptable 85% was rather sickening to me and I felt in needed to be increased. This realization came as a result of seeing brood viability of 100% in ferals found in,,,,. Well, we’ll just say an "undisclosed location" to try and avoid the inevitable argument that ferals are all the same in all areas. :) >From observing the brood viability in my colonies throughout the season, it seemed viability was higher in the spring, and then would get a bit worse in the summer, and then up tick again in the fall. The fluctuation seems not to be varroa related, but instead I think it might be queen related. Some queens had the ability to circle back and re-lay in these cells, and being fond of this trait, I spared these queens that were exhibiting this behavior. Not sure what the cause is, but I my suspicions are for the moment that the low viability might be possibly susceptibility to virus related. Which although NO clinical signs of a virus exist. According to the prevailing research, viruses might affect queen performance, and as the experts suggest could be a contributing cause of the high incidence of queen supercedures and failures noticed by some beekeepers lately. I moved up my integration of this feral stock exhibiting higher brood viability and am now seeing much higher brood viability in the daughter queens, testing between 98 to 100% season long. I am very happy now, and what ever the cause, I may have solved my viability issues for now and at least know that the proper breeding and genetics can solve the issue. Also, varroa symptoms have been at unnoticeable levels and colonies very strong. But it will be interesting to see if colonies maintaining high brood viability and large brood nest can manage to keep mites at unnoticeable levels. The article in the below link seems to suggest that increased brood viability as a result increased queen polyandry could help me accomplish just that. Promiscuous queen bees make healthier hives- http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10173-promiscuous-queen-bees-make- healthier-hives.html Best Wishes, Joe Waggle EcologicalBeekeeping.com 'Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 14:16:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Cell sizes and Climate In-Reply-To: <20060930180728.63077.qmail@web53409.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike writes: ASSUMPTION: The more mass a worker bee has, the better it is able to withstand colder temperatures and thus fly in cooler weather and better enable the colony to survive. Reply: Actually it has been proven that smaller bees fly in cooler temperatures both earlier and later and withstand colder temperatures quite well and warmer. But you are right for the LC bees developing are exposed to a greater degree of infestation due to higher JGH for triggering reproduction, where with SC one mite into a cell for reproduction is normally one mite out......... Mike continues: ASSUMPTION: The colder your climate, the bigger your worker bee needs to be to maximize honey production. Reply: Now this I don't understand for how big is big before you have to make the choice of carrying either pollen or honey and not both? Also more workers with smaller and faster development means more turn around time for making larger crops in areas of shorter seasons for gathering. Also large eat more brought home without saving. Besides it has been proven smaller makes more.... respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 10:05:38 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Cell sizes and Climate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee wrote > But you are right for > the LC bees developing are exposed to a greater degree of > infestation due to higher JGH for triggering reproduction, Can you give a reference for this statement to show that larger bees (read larvae) have a different JGH production than smaller bees (read larvae). Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Had a look at www.apimondia2007.com ? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 17:08:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: Bee Warning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote, > In fact Keith we are considering getting one of those home depot machines > like in the pictures to make pollen patties and ditching the cement mixer! > Randy said you made two modifications to the machine. Mind telling us what > they were so we don't have to reinvent the wheel? The changes I made were 4 inch lip on the machine so you don't spill over the top as it is mixing, also Bob, you will need to take a plasma cutter, cut the top off of the spindle, set it back down on the sleeve and make sure you are true to the drum then weld the spindle to the drive unit. Take your time and make sure you are plum otherwise the spindle paddles will rub against the wall of the drum. If you get lost give me a shout and I will help you through it, put it on BEE-L as my phone is ringing off the hook about this and they probably have the same question you have . Also a Leland 200 sausage mixer works great to, IF you can find a used one. Bob you said we, what do you have, a mouse in your pocket? Bob, I hope this helps. Keith Jarrett CA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 18:41:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Cell sizes and Climate In-Reply-To: <003301c6e4ed$55b70e40$7683453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor Hanel, H. 1983. Effect of JH III on the reproduction of Varroa jacobsoni. Apidologie 14:137-142 Hanel, H., and N. Koeniger 1986. Possible regulation of the reproduction of the honey bee mite Varroa jacobsoni by a host's hormone: juvenile hormone III. J. Insect Physiol. 32:791-98 "These researchers were able to show that mite reproduction hinges on the physiological condition of the infested honey bee larvae. Thus, the juvenile hormone titer in the blood of the honey bee prepupa dictates whether the female mite initiates egg laying after the first blood meal." from A. Dietz "Biology, Detection and Control of Varroa jacobsoni: a Parasitic Mite of Honey Bees, 1988 Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 22:53:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: bee warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith & All, Thanks for the information! I do cutting and welding so the modifications will not be a problem. The *we* is Glenn Davis (owner Bell Hill Honey). Our operations are run together in ways but seperate in other ways. We go together to buy in bulk and even buy beekeepers operations out together. We buy syrup together and share a crew of help during the season. Each week we plan the weeks work for the crew. We have been best friends for many years. We talk by moblie phone many times a day. If Bell Hill has a swinger or truck breakdown they are welcome to use my equipment until theirs are fixed. We are both retired but still run operations on a commercial scale. We like the challenge of beekeeping and working with the young beekeepers which help us. Both of us are not in the best of health (but we are NOT ready for the rocking chair yet!)and could not run our operations without the young beekeepers we hire to help ( or mentor if you like). All of the help has beehives of their own. The bee keeping help gets use of our equipment when needed and buys meds and syrup at our cost. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---