From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:26:17 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, ALL_NATURAL,AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19CA449075 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEr0Bv013917 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:50 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0610B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 175678 Lines: 3937 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 17:01:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote, > Bees in areas of drought (according to Lyle Johnston 60% of all bees used > in almond pollination spend the summer in the Mid west) are in rough > shape. info -- Bob, I don't know one keeper in northern Calif that had a decent year. We went from too much cold wet weather to a three week heat wave of 110. I took three loads of 168 doubles out of the safflower fields to the foothills in the first of Aug.They would only avg 7-8 frames of bees. I feed 5 gals syrup and two 6 pound pattie, not what I was looking to do in Aug. I thought I would be pulling supers of honey that month, NOT. What I'm trying to say is, it's been a hard year for allot of us. But, it's worth pumping your hives even though they should be in better shape, you can take a poor hive in Aug and still avg 8 frame in the almonds. Take a close look at my pictures in (ABJ pg 843) the blue boxes are the ones I'm referring to, do you notice that their's very little burr comb. In Nov (ABJ) there is a close up of these hives, I took 7 frame hive in first of Aug and turned into 18 frames by the end of Sept. I'm not saying this is fun and not back breaking work, but it can be done. At a possibility of 125 and rising for pollination (maybe), beekeepers are foolish for not pumping them back up. I also would like to caution all who are quoting massive shortage and sky high prices, this also was done last year by a group of keepers.We all know what happen last year, so please be careful. Timing is everything in this business, one needs to pin point any problems and act swiftly.Sitting around and hoping for a late honey flow is high stakes poker game, and almond pollinating is no game. Keith Jarrett Calif. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 20:13:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Almond Pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, The following is taken from a paper put out by Lyle Johnston ( broker/beekeeper which places around 40,000 -50,000 hives into almond pollination.) Lyle Johnston: " The devestating drought throughout most of the mid-west will cause stress on hives going into fall. There are a few areas that did produce but many beekeepers are reporting the worst crop since they began keeping bees. I would venture to say that 60% of the bees that pollinate almonds spend the summers in the Mid-west states. We have all had poor crops before and no matter what you do the bees after a bad crop ( pollen patties ,feed) the bees never seem to recover and look healthy." Hopefully Lyle is wrong about the above but exactly what I am seeing and hearing. This year will put a final nail in several outfits coffin. Many Dakota beekeepers are in Texas trying rebuild in time for almonds we were told at the meeting. One Mid-west beekeeper moved bees to the Dakotas to try and get a honey crop and met with disaster. Now he is in Texas trying to rebuild. On top of everything else we were told yesterday he fell off an RV roof and broke his leg and has had to have surgeries and pins installed! Keith Delaplane did a program at the KHPA meeting on pollination. His conclusion is the need for pollinators keeps growing and the number of hives available keeps dropping. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 18:21:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, A billion pound plus crop this year @ say 2.50 pound. I would say somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.5 billion dollars worth of almonds. Keith > ... more money ... from almond pollination alone, than from all honey > sales! How do these figures compare to the worth of the almond harvest? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 09:34:23 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Winter Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I checked three hives regularly right through one winter, and none of them was ever totally broodless. At about New Year, they were down to about 3-4 capped cells, which was the lowest. So I can reasonably say that my particular strain of near-Amm is never likely to be totally broodless in my particular area, but that around New Year it will be almost so. I can't speak for other strains or areas though. I do wonder whether they might go broodless if the winter was long and cold enough. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 11:23:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Almond Pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Keith & All, All of us are putting in the time (and money) to bring our hives back which really has little to do with California almond pollination. Package prices keep climbing higher and higher and queens (in the U.S.)are getting superceded after weeks and hardly last a couple seasons. I need strong hives in spring to fill Missouri pollination contracts and to make splits to replace winter losses. California almond pollination for the midwest beekeeper has never been a big money maker for us but created cash flow at a time when bees normally would be sitting idle. The promise of huge pollination fees last year were quickly dropped to below the year pricing before because of rejected hives. Almond growers (or brokers) are going to have to come forward with better ways of doing business before the current attitude with Midwest beekeepers is going to change. California almond growers crapped in their nest when they went to Florida and talked those beekeepers into sending hives and then many beekeepers only were paid for part of their hives or had loads turned at the border for small hive beetle( or had to pay big bucks for fire ant clean up). The answer is simple and wrote about by me in my spring ABJ article. HIVES BEING CONTRACTED FOR ALMONDS NEED TO BE INSPECTED BEFORE SHIPMENT FROM POINT OF ORIGIN AND PLACEMENT GUARENTEED. I amde the point in my spring article and see as the solution. One California broker said he would pay for an airline ticket so the midwest beekeeper can see the grading process and the hives rejected. Duh! We will pay for a ticket for the almond grower and broker to grade before shipment! The price will be set before shipment. Then we ship and end of problem! One large California broker told me by phone two different times in the last month he is hesitant to take our bees if we send to Texas first. The reason is simple! He knows border issues are increasing this year due to pressure from our fellow Northern California beekeepers. Fire ant issues (which cost time and money are solvable as loads do enter Calif.). How about all the loads which have went through over the last many years with fire ants which were either not checked or the fire ants did not like the spam?) The current California SHB policy of starting SHB inspections last year after 8 years of letting loads with SHB roll in. SHB IS coming to northern Calif. no matter what is done. To sum the situation up: The problems at the border combined with the chance of having hives rejected is not worth the risk of even not getting paid for trucking let alone not getting pollination fees. When in California I always stayed in the camp of the out of state beekeepers. A higher number of hives were involved than the largest California broker controls. I believe I understand their mindset better than most. The out of state beekeepers control the market. Many think it will take a year without enough bees to wake up California almond growers. Also many California brokers & growers think they can dictate pollination prices. Beekeeper sustainability will dictate future prices. True many beekeepers will keep dragging hives into California and taking whatever deal they are offered by brokers & growers but many will not. The number of those which will not is growing fast! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 11:50:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: Almond Pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob and all, > Package prices keep climbing higher and higher and queens (in the U.S.)are > getting superceded after weeks and hardly last a couple seasons. Bob you're correct, I think everyone is batteling this problem. > The promise of huge pollination fees last year were > quickly dropped to below the year pricing before because of rejected > hives. Rejected hives got rejected for a reason, there were too many hives here without contracts for them, due to poor busness practices by mostly out-of-staters. They set the tone when they were leaving thier phone # on almond growers trees by the road, saying they have hives for rent. This is how poorly some outfits are run, these outfits need to go under. > The out of state beekeepers control the market. Many think it will take a > year without enough bees to wake up California almond growers. First of all, good hives control the market and set the price. But you are right, on the supply side of the equation, with a tighter supply of hives, the growers will be waking-up. > Also many California brokers & growers think they can dictate pollination > prices. Beekeeper sustainability will dictate future prices. I sure hope your right on this. I'm tried of watching them give away their product and services, but this mostly happens when they're running close to the edge. Keith Jarrett Calif. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 15:38:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Almond article. http://www.Capitalpress.info/main.asp? SectionID=67&SubSectionID=616&ArticleID=27856&TM=78413.52 Mason bees will save the almond industry was discussed. I played with mason bees for four years and find the idea laughable! "Beam me up Scottie" Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 16:05:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Bob's last post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi folks, The last post from Bob Harrison should not have been approved, mea = culpa. It contains an incorrect URL. If you follow the URL and get the following: "Your access to this server=20 Your access to this server=20 and/or site has been denied You may have entered an invalid URL or your browser or service did not = meet the criteria required to enter our servers and/or web sites.=20 You could be blocking our server from reading your browser type.=20 Please submit the form below and we will respond with an explanation of = why cannot access the site you are trying to visit.=20 Thank you for your assistance.=20 1up!" DO NOT GO ANY FURTHER. I don't know where you are taken or what happens = if you fill out the 1up! form, but I advise stongly that you do not fill = out the form! I have requested from Bob to check the URL and resubmit. Apologies, Aaron Morris BEE-L Owner/Editor/Moderator/Janitor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 17:52:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Bob's last post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to all who have responded regarding Bob's last post. I do know = how to put a line-wrapped url back together, but erred in the process = and ended up at a location with which I was uncomfortable, hence my = warning (just in case anyone made a similar error). =20 Anyway, I sent the url to Tinyurl.com, which assigned the following: http://tinyurl.com/h4pqn =20 Thanks again, Aaron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 21:28:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Keith & All, I think beekeeping organizations need to offer seminars on "risk management" & "sustainability". As Keith pointed out many of last years problems could have been avoided by taking a few simple precautions. However those beekeepers had been sending bees to almonds for years with never a problem. Some were first timers and were simply unprepared. Those which do not learn from their mistakes will repeat their mistakes. Not long ago I was part of a large almond pollination done only on a handshake. I pressed the other two beekeepers for a contract but they said not to worry. We received half when the hives were placed and half when removed and paid no broker fees. Our share was around 67,000 dollars( back when hives were bringing around forty bucks a hive). I never heard of a broker in California which paid half when the bees were placed and half when removed. This year Missouri bees were back from almonds two months before final payment was made by the broker. Several heartbreaking stories were given to beekeepers around the country by California brokers about why they could not pay. Real heartbreaking stories and no way for the beekeeper to tell if true or not. When the time comes for almond brokers to broker Mexican bees and they say: " we will send your pollination check to Mexico after you are home a couple months " I think you will hear the Mexicans say: "let me introduce you to my little friend" ( from the movie scarface with Al Pacino) My ABJ articles are about beekeepers which always thought trouble in California and the California border always happens to the other guy. Some took out loans to ready for California, others put money on credit cards, others spent the money they expected to get (or were promised ) before earned and the big boys simply lost money and considered the loss a lesson. The big boys are still sitting at the table and figure they will recoup their 2006 losses with interest over the next five years. In poker you are not a loser until you fold your cards and get up from the table. Money will get out of state beekeepers to get into the almond game unless the deck is stacked and then better to pass and wait. Fact: All out of state beekeepers know that if bees are short in almonds growers & brokers will pick up the membership directories of the ABF & AHPA and start calling begging for hives the last week of January and into early February. Has happened twice in the last decade! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 22:22:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison said "Those with small hive beetle could get their loads turned as their own fellow beekeepers put pressure on Carla Markman for tighter border control." Your fellow beekeepers, Bob, are wondering why you are so insistant that we share the pain of SHB. There are only a few northern Calif counties that have restrictions, and that is because the survey shows that WE DON'T HAVE SHB YET! You may have noticed that queens were in short supply this spring. Do you think that giving northern Calif queen producers a major problem is going to help the situation? When they bring their colonies back from local almond orchards, they don't want to make up nucs infested with SHB that came from some out of stater who didn't give a dang about his "fellow beekeepers" in Calif. I spoke with one queen producer who produces 80,000 queens in mini nucs. He isn't enthusiastic about having to switch over to much more expensive, and time consuming, large nucs because some Missouri beekeeper is giving everyone maps showing how they can sneak into California undetected. It's just going to raise the price of queens for everyone. We Californians have no axe to grind with the midwesterners, in fact, many of us work hand in hand with them (Keith included). The main reason I wrote the ABJ article on pollination was to help out-of-staters so they wouldn't suffer disasters coming to our State. Maybe they could show a little courtesy in return by not bringing in fire ants, exotic weeds, or SHB into areas where it isn't already present. Respectfully, Your fellow beekeeper, Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 22:39:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron Morris wrote: ... more money ... from almond pollination alone, than from all honey sales!=20 How do these figures compare to the worth of the almond harvest? Well, a billion pound crop at $2.00 a pound (this price will not last too many years) would be $2 billion. Pollination would account for 8.5% of that gross income. Aaron, realize that this situation won't last forever. The demand for almonds is currently matching supply exactly, so almond nut prices are strong. Once prices start to fall, the growers won't be able to afford sky-high pollination prices. Western beekeepers need to figure out how to ramp up their numbers by getting a handle on varroa, doing more "feedlot" beekeeping, and mechanizing to minimize labor. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 23:08:36 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: D Thompson Subject: winter bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well Chris with a mild english winter and AMM you may be right , the queen in those circumstances lay all year Tell us what the Sottish fellows say, then you differentiate race vrs temp In northern US and Canada the bees certainly stop laying Some of mine have already 1 week stopped Today at least 3 had no unsealed brood, this seems early, I should have fed (: In other words Northern Queens get a 3 or 4 or 5 month vacation Strong hives start up to a month earlier, to me this suggest that it is temperature related. While bees can make a lot of heat, if they have to do it for a long time, it must wear them out About half the dead-outs have sealed brood, dead Nov-Dec 1/4 frame to 2.5 frames, avg ~.8 frame??? Some of this will be mischance of location, lots can be laid to weakness, but clearly the queen laid too long Darwin rules In my climate i don't worry if the Q doesn't start until Mar, less likely to run out of pollen, many are not so adapted but I'm near the northern limit, this skews the dates Hives that start too early often piddle along forever, only get going when its warm and barely (at best) gather average honey Heaters make big difference here, most respond Now my question is: Does it wear a bee out to make/draw wax? I made all my nuc draw 2 frames Sep20-30 lotsa feed, fancy frames etc Was it a bad move? As to varroa I am entirely satisfied with OA(v) if the hive can't withstand 1 year, good ridance dave -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 00:36:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Randy & All, The old dinasaur queen producer you speak of is the same beekeeper which attended all the meetings and learned all the information but still was wiped out by tracheal mites and rebuilt and then was wiped out by varroa. The first documented case of small hive beetle was in Charleston in 1995. Eleven years ago. We were told then that SHB would eventually infest most of the U.S.. If the person you speak of had started getting ready by converting less than 10% of his mating nucs to 2-5 frame mating nucs then he would be ready now. Instead he will wait till the SHB puts him out of business. Instead he has a huge number of small mating nucs for which there is no market for nor will there ever be again after SHB arrives. I saw stacks of these in Florida & Georgia for sale. Maybe your friend would like to buy another 10,000 real cheap! I have got a five year busness plan in my operation. Your friend is the type which will deal with the problem when it happens and so like with tracheal mites and varroa he is going to lose his shirt. Small hive beetle is coming to northern California (most likely next season if not already in hives as I can assure you the northern California package industry will be the last to admit SHB in their hives). I don't care what "survey says". The ONLY defense for queen producers against SHB is to convert to larger nucs with enough bees to protect the nuc. Ask the southern queen producers. Those with five frame nucs are not having problems. Those with mating nucs using a cup of bees are losing their shirts! The migratory beekeepers which are left are left because they quickly adapt to the fast changing beekeeping world. All the old dinasaurs are gone now in our business. SHB could change the face of the California queen & package industry. Raising queens in small mating nucs like Grandpa did will not work when SHB arrives. Your friend is "asleep at the wheel" in my opinion. I do not have SHB in my operation but I made changes for the SHB arrival several years ago and I am ready. Are you? Your queen producer friend is not! As far as I know I was the only out of state beekeeper to travel to Florida in 1998 to see first hand the first SHB infestation in Florida. I studied tracheal mites & varroa for years before they entered the U.S.. Just in case! If you stopped all loads from entering California the Northern part of California is still past due for SHB infestation. I do feel sorry for the queen producer but he needs to pull his head out of the sand and start getting ready for SHB. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:05:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: pencaemawr Subject: Re: Almond Pollination In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 16:23:22 +0100, Bob Harrison wrote: > queens (in the U.S.)are > getting superceded after weeks and hardly last a couple seasons. > There are plenty of theories as to the causes of this, but is any research going on to confirm what is happening? John Burgess (UK) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 09:28:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Queen problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello John & All, John asks about the queen problems Keith & I refered to. There has been research but for the most part our U.S. queen producers have ignored the research. Our commercial beekeepers also. I took the research very serious and started around four years changing all comb. Completed in spring 2006. Jeff Pettis of the Beltsville Bee Lab began using mass spec to test brood comb on which approved chemical strips had been used according to label. What he found was scary. Other research has been done by many others concerning chemical contamination trying to control bee pests. Jerry B. has gave many talks about enviromental chemical contamination of comb. Comb contaminated which has NEVER had a chemical used! At the last talk Jerry gave Allen Dick & myself commented that Jerry's talk was probably (in our opinion) the most important talk of the ABF convention yet less than 20 beekeepers attended. To sum the situation up most comb in queen producers hives & mating nucs needs changed. Coumaphos wax contamination has been proven to cause life shortening, poor performance and queen supercedure problems. I think Anita Collens did some of the research . Drones raised on comb which has had fluvalinate used can be sterile but a noticable effect has been proven beyound a doubt . Sure changing comb is expensive aand time consuming but while queen producers use the contaminated comb they still get top dollar for queens and the buyer sees early supercedure, poor performance, drone layers and shortened life span. In my opinion the situation will not improve until comb is rotated AND could get worse. Yes I said worse! Many have noticed I have quit attending national meetings. Why? Because beekeepers for the most part do not like to have a beekeeper stand up and ask the hard questions of ALL segments of OUR industry. What good is funding bee labs, letting the labs do the research and then ignoring the results? Common queen producer statement: "Why should I change my comb as I am selling all the queens I can produce for top dollar and there is no guarentee changing the comb will improve my queens" I love the internet! Any queen producers want to state why I have got the above all wrong? Didn't think so! Ask yourself: Why are all the queen problems happening since we started putting chemicals in bee hives if tthe chemical contamination is not part ( if not the whole problem) of the problem? Five years ago I was not crazy about queens from Hawaii but since then I have good luck with those queens ( from chemical contamination free comb) . Are the queens and bees still the same but queens raised in the mainland getting poorer? I wonder? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 12:19:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: SHB could change the face of the California queen & package industry. Raising queens in small mating nucs like Grandpa did will not work when SHB arrives. Thanks for the reply, Bob I'm sure that my "dinosaur" friend will be amused by your description of him--but I think you might have the wrong guy in mind. I admire your progressive attitude (especially from someone who's been keeping bees since before dirt!). I think everyone would do well to keep looking at the horizon, and adjust their operations and methods proactively. I will be speaking to the California Queen Breeders Association in a few days, and will pass on your insights about SHB and mini nucs (most are already aware--we're not really as dumb out here as you may think). I know that you are predicting that SHB will infest all of Calif, and that may well come to pass. However, we've been exposed to the beetle for some years now, and there is some evidence that it does not reproduce well in our dry climate and hard soils. A few Calif beekeepers I've spoken with who have picked it up in almonds have seen beetle levels drop in their operations, rather than increase. This may be wishful thinking, but we're hoping that without continued reinfestation by out of staters, that we might be able to keep beetle levels negligible, and continue producing "inexpensive" queens for the rest of the nation. Personally, I'm just a small-time beekeeper. But in speaking with the "big boys," I'm seeing that an agribusiness-style high-efficiency model of producing bees for pollination is likely to be the model for the future. We've had Bob Koehnen's operation locally to set an example of "feedlot" beekeeping. You can see how Keith has adopted it. I personally find it cheaper to move to better summer pasture, but I have a small operation that can find locations. Not so with the big boys. Brett Adee is setting down 5000 colonies in a yard here, and feeding the heck out of them. Beekeeping without flowers involved! He's managing them as pollinating units that require protein and carbohydrate inputs, and 5000 in a yard is an efficient way for his crews to manage that feeding. It also will equalize mite levels for uniform colony performance and treatment. California farmers have mechanized farming and harvesting. Trees are pruned, and fruit is harvested by machine in some cases. Lack of labor is the driving force. Much of Calif's pear crop rotted on the trees this year due to lack of available labor. Beekeepers are experiencing a similar problem--labor costs are killing us. I'm a dinosaur in that I love the keeping of bees, just like I like my little flock of chickens at home. But I don't imagine that little flocks like mine could produce all the chicken McNuggets demanded by our hungry nation. The small beekeeper who knows each of his colonies personally will not be able to supply enough bees for the huge pollination market. You said "The migratory beekeepers which are left are left because they quickly adapt to the fast changing beekeeping world. All the old dinasaurs are gone now in our business." I totally agree. I think the first operation that incorporates more mechanization will set a new model. Just look at Jim Payson's video of nuc making (John Miller has a similar nuc assembly line). Bob, I don't always agree with you on points, but appreciate your progressive suggestions for our industry. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 16:46:37 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Queen problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Why are all the queen problems happening since we started putting chemicals in bee hives... Chemicals of all sorts have an effect... I removed this summer one feral colony from a location that had had bees before and had been sprayed with a hornet spray years earlier. This colony was from a spring swarm. The colony numbers were not bad, there was no worker brood at all and only some last emerging drone brood. I figured they had lost their queen... I shook all the vac'ed bees into a bee hive and checked them frame by frame 2 days later. I was a little surprised to find a virgin queen on aframe. She *looked* mature but the abdomen was small. I kept her for another week and a half before dispatching her. I believe some chemicals cause queens to either not take mating flights or cause them to be sterile. It's another case for not using chemicals... Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:11:06 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>His conclusion is the need for pollinators keeps growing and the number of hives available keeps dropping. Not that it would satisfy the demand but are California beekeepers increasing their hive numbers? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:24:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Brian_Fredericksen?= Subject: Re: Queen problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This spring I purchased 200 Strachan queens and had about 30% superscede. Mating weather in CA was poor so might be hard to say if it was comb or weather. However during the same time period I purchased 50 packages from Olivarez who is just north of Strachan but nearby. Of the packages 1 or 2 supersceded and overall were way more prolific then the splits I made with the Strachan queeens.. The owner Ray I think his name is talked at length about the affects of chems in comb and his efforts to have new clean drone comb.. So my point is there are CA queen producers out there who hear the "data". -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:25:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Small Hive beetle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Randy & All, Maybe the most current research ( and older research ) which might help for your talk. Strong hivess are the key to SHB control! Private beekeeping research has found SHB is starting to pupate in the hive. Although calls to south Africa say they have never seen SHb pupate in other than the ground we are seeing pupation in comb (similar to wax moth). All you need is a band of gardstar across the ground in front of the hive entrance to control ground pupation. Closing all openings in bee boxes and reducing the entrance helps the bees to keep SHB levels low in hives.(Delaplane 2006) SHB flys in swarms ( Pettis 1998). SHb causes a yeast to develop in the hive which acts as an atractant for other SHB in locating a hive to slime ( Delaplane 2006). Coumaphos strips under cardboard are ineffective methods of SHB control( Delaplane 2006) SHB first moves into honey supers and then into the brood area ( Delaplane 2006) Most honey house SHB problems come from bringing mature SHB in with the supers. Bee go & honey robber do not repell small hive beetle like bees. The SHB will move into cells and hide instead of exiting the supers. We need research in this area. We are working on other solutions but only in research stages. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:26:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar wrote: Not that it would satisfy the demand but are California beekeepers increasing their hive numbers? This very same question was asked by a grower at the Almond Board seminar. The beekeepers all laughed--well, duh! We're trying our best. I asked for a show of hands for any who had made as much increase as they had hoped for. No hands went up! Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:23:47 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Queen problems In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> This spring I purchased 200 Strachan queens and had about 30% superscede. I think supercedure is a LOT more common and regular an occurance than people realize. Clean homes are a must IMO. No chems ever in my hives. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:50:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Queen problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:23:47 -0500, Scot Mc Pherson wrote: > >I think supercedure is a LOT more common and regular an occurance than >people realize. > >Clean homes are a must IMO. No chems ever in my hives. > I've had much better results in past years from the same queen producer and I agree with Bob and the general claim that superscedure rates seem much higher the last 2-3 years then in times past. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 21:44:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: nuc making Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd Spears said: Randy, you said "Just look at Jim Payson's video of nuc making (John Miller has a similar nuc assembly line)." Where can I see that video? JZ (Jim Payson) still sells it (I don't know if he's got it on DVD). The best commercial beekeeping video I've ever seen. It was before varroa. Go to: http://hometown.aol.com/jzsbzs/myhomepage/index.html Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 12:24:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Queen problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I think supercedure is a LOT more common and regular an occurance than people realize. I've been raising my own queens and I don't see frequent supercedure of YOUNG queens. Bees don't go through supercedure for the heck of it. The queen must be failing to warrant supercedure. When I used to buy queens from Strachan, I'd often see supercedure. When I asked them about treatments over the phone, they said they were using Coumaphos. If it's not chems alone then perhaps the trip stress makes the queens less than perfect? A fellow beekeeper with 42 hives in several locations has been alternating bet. Apistan and Coumaphos for the past few years. He told last week all his hives have shot gun brood patterns. I advised him to change his wax. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:48:11 -0400 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: Almond Pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Randy Oliver wrote: "I'm seeing that an agribusiness-style, high-effeciency model of producing bees for pollination is likely to be the model for the future." Enjoyed your latest response, Randy You are on the target and in the bulls eye area on your assessment of the situation. When market anomalies occur the immediate response is chaotic and unplanned, poorly managed responses....... initially. Then, with time, money goes to work and finds the most efficient model for response which will once again be the ultimate answer to filling the market monsters needs. Sometimes this takes a few years and the demand (for almond pollinators) fluctuates, perhaps less and less wildly until supply levels out with demand once again. With ever increasing costs of transportation, the answer to almond growers needs does not reside on the east coast of the country and perhaps eventually not even in the mid-west. As you already noted, large beekeeping operators or perhaps even growers may find the need to set up units for pollination that will reside in CA to avoid going in and out of the state and save transportation costs. It would make more sense to me for large mid-west o! perators to have base units in CA and make splits in the almonds and ship those splits back to the mid-west for production, kill them off and ship empty boxes back to CA in winter. Far less transportation costs than shipping live units both ways. Residing in CA will most likely be the ultimate answer to the industry providing enough bees to meet the expanding and growing orchards of almonds and other species as well. When we talked last spring, I asked you "Do you want another half a million hives in your back yard ?" They are coming and a half a million will be the short term. I would imagine that your shrinking foragable area will further deteriorate and create other problems locals and small operators will have to deal with. I sure hope you don't live within the "circle of foragable area" of a 5,000 lot "feedlot of bees". The competetive, world wide market that we are in requires larger and larger operations with the capitol to survive and adapt responsibly and! intelligently. Suppliers that don't respond die and the market finds cheaper models to fit. It may take another 3 to five years to work out the excesses in the market at the present but it will resolve itself in time and when it does the current high prices for pollination will balance out and restore normalcy. When market equilibrium returns it will be in the hands of the agri-business style, most effecient and competetive operators. Hope some of the small beekeepers can grab a piece of the pie in the meantime. I'm staying home with hopes of raising a honey crop in 2007. Enjoyed the ABJ article. I can appreciate the time you spent working on it. Headed to Wal-Mart for some groceries. Tim Tucker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 11:00:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: bee breeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit BobHarrison wrote: There has been research but for the most part our U.S. queen producers have ignored the research. Our commercial beekeepers also. Hi Bob, It is fairly typical of industry not to incorporate current research--there is often a 20- to 30-year lag time between research and application in technology fields, medicine, and agriculture. One personal observation is that I started and ran the insectary at Univ of Calif, Irvine in 1972. I mass produced insects in order to extract their developmental hormones--juvenile hormone and ecdysone--in order to develop environmentally-friendly insecticides. These insecticides didn't reach the market until the last few years--after the previous generations of insecticides were phased out due to regulation, inefficiency due to resistance, or politically due to consumer demand. Beekeepers usually won't change their ways until they are forced to by the fact that their established methods no longer work. Then they MUST change if they want to stay in business. There are a some, such as yourself, who are a few years ahead of the curve, and are able to experiment and set an example for the others. I commend you for that. Randy Oliver California -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:13:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Beekeeping in Evanston, IL In-Reply-To: <200610082308.37008.dthompson@nexusisp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yesterday the Evanston, IL city council passed an ordinance that restricts beekeeping in that Chicago suburb. Details at http:// www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/northshore/ chi-0610100108oct10,1,120751.story (registration required). The Tribune story does not include details on the actual restrictions imposed, but the draft ordinance would have effectively banned beekeeping in much of Evanston by establishing a 25-foot minimum clearance for the bees (many lots are only 50 feet wide). I see no indication in the newspaper article that there was support from any beekeeping organization. The action was precipitated by a 14-year-old beekeeper who has a blog at http://gobees.blogspot.com/. Reading his blog, I do not get the impression that this is the ideal spokesperson for beekeepers. I'm curious if any beekeeping associations were involved, and if not, why not. The vote was 5-4 and I expect that if there had been a coherent defense of beekeeping at the council meeting that this ordinance would not have passed. On the other hand, I'm basing my opinion on the newspaper article, and we all know how dangerous that can be. A related question . . . I was asked after the fact by a friend who lives in Evanston if there are materials available from any of the beekeeping organizations that could be used in a situation like this. What resources do exist? I know that ordinances like this have been successfully turned back in other locations; is it a case of the local beekeepers re-inventing the wheel each time? Steve Bonine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 11:14:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tim Tucker wrote: I would imagine that your shrinking foragable area will further deteriorate and create other problems locals and small operators will have to deal with. Hi Tim I was speaking last night with a large queen producer from the north valley of Calif. He says that the area is currently saturated with bee yards. He noted that any added load is felt by the locals. In his own operation, he doubled the number of colonies in each yard in order to run larger numbers--knowing well that it would effectively cut forage in half for each colony. It did, and it showed in his bees. He's being forced to summer his bees out of state to keep them strong for almonds. The question is: is Calif beekeeping going to go to the "feedlot" model that Keith is successful with (supplementing or replacing natural forage with vegetable protein and sugar syrup), or to moving bees out of state for the summer, if the prices of diesel and honey sales make it cost effective. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 13:07:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: Queen problems In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Maybe supercedure issue is not all due to chemical usage. Perhaps the introduction of AHB and Russian genetics into the gene pool has contributed to this problem by producing a mongrelized bee. Last issue of ABJ talked about crosses with AHB not having good survivability and pheromones of Russians are quite different according comments I've read on this list and in literature. Wouldn't be a all surprised if this is not having an effect. Jerry Wallace ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 13:24:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Randy & All, I have been around the industry a very long time. Beekeeping was my project in Future Farmers of America. I remember when Richard Adee was starting out to become "King of the Hill" ( as the Bee Culture article of the same name called Richard). "Older than dirt" ????? Editors of both ABJ & BC will say ( and they read BEE-L) I have got a huge industry contact base to draw information from. You spoke of Brent Adee so lets talk about what I see as going on in their operation right now. Adee Honey Farms was not always the largest beekeeper in the U.S. but is without a doubt today ( approx. 85,000 hives as told to me by Bob Adee ). I do not know the cost of opening the doors each month but Bell Honey Farms in Florida said their cost was approx. $200,000 a month. A few warning sounds are starting to come from the Adee Honey Farms location. What I have heard & seen: The worst honey crop since keeping bees. The asking price for Adee honey on the Midwest Honey hot line is higher than whats around by quite a bit. Two long time buyers of Adee honey have been calling around looking for honey. Bees coming out of the midwest are in terrible shape. I have dropped everything and spent many weeks getting mine into shape. All of the midwest beekeepers I have spoke with have been. California is the last chance of Adee honey Farms salvaging the season and creating cash flow. I know from doing research on an almond article last spring Brent Adee had trouble getting hives placed in almonds due to the tough grading standards. I believe the huge Adee machine is trying to turn things around in California after the failure of Dakota honey crops. The moves so far by Adee Honey Farms make sense but still a gamble. Success depends on two things. Can the stressed Midwest colonies be brought up to grading standards in time, can each unit be rented and can the huge Adee machine find enough cash flow to last until almond brokers pay up. Another problem for all of Midwest honey producers is how long will the drought and above normal summer temps last. Sub soils moisture levels are worse than the dust bowl days. Can a big payday in almonds sustain Adee Honey farms through another "even worse Dakota honey crop senario in summer 2007" due to prolonged drought if is what happens? If the Adee's get a big honey crop in summer 2007 will all their longtime customers (built up over many many years) come back? The above is only what I see and hear from my sources. Adee Honey Farms has weathered many a storm and most likely will again. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:45:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim T., Randy O and last but not least Bob H, & all, Let me start with some of Tim's thoughs on his last post,BTW nice to see your post again. Tim talks about keeping bees in Calif. for almonds and not trucking back and forth to honey areas. Keepers here(Calif) aready have to take their hives out-of-state because their is no room here in the summer time for them .Take a look at the data on how many hives are in Calif, then double it and that's about how are here( thier is no reg, and half dont fill out their county reg forms). As far as trucking back and forth goes, this is how I do it. I bring in double deeps from the Dakotas 544 a load, I have them pull out the side frames of honey ,so to lighten them up for trucking and to get rid of that honey that is no good to for wintering bees on.When I send them back in the spring, I use a thin divider boad with a bee way, and cell every box that doesn't have a queen.So, going back to the dakotas I have 1088 pockets per load. Randy, Feedlot beekeeping, I think I understand where you and Tim are going with this, but here's my thoughts on it. First of all, the guys in the north valley can't do what I'm doing as far as syrup feeding, you can throw a rock and hit the next keepers yard, up north this prevents a lot. What I do, is push them wether they need it or not. I don't say ooo these look O.K and leave and go to the next yard.The fall is the month's and time to throw everthing at them that you can.You are down to just 5 months away from pay day and going into winter. To all ,on this subject, I sure don't read much on many posts, on METHODS on how to achive these goels. I do here some pattying on the back from each other. Some, that think thier ahead of the CURVE in thier thinking are miles behind. Look around ,most of what has been said, I"ve been doing for years. And I'm only a part timer. Keith Jarrett Calif -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:51:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: Can the stressed Midwest colonies be brought up to grading standards in time, can each unit be rented and can the huge Adee machine find enough cash flow to last until almond brokers pay up. Hi Bob, I didn't mean any offense with the "older than dirt" crack :) I, for one, really appreciate your contacts and experience. I'll be the first to admit that I'm the world's worst businessman, and a second rate beekeeper. You big guys are in another league, and I really am in awe of the businesses you sucessfully run! That said, if the shortage is as severe as it looks, growers will be less picky about strength toward the start of bloom. I have only a short haul, yet I combine any weak colonies, so I can charge a premium on fewer loads. Labor intensive, yes. The big boys will have to see if the trade off of labor at home vs. freight to haul empty boxes both ways is worth it. My guess is that each unit will be rented, but have a signed, legal, contract first. You're too far away for handshakes any more. One ace in the hole for you is that the growers' crop insurance companies are requiring two colonies per acre to insure the nut crop! The growers need the bees. We're trying to give the growers out here the message that a shortage is in the works. The Almond Board is hearing us. A suggestion: some of us locals give a discount for a portion of, or full payment up front. This is a huge trust issue between the grower and the beekeeper. A history together helps a lot. It will be a hard sell if you don't. Here's a wild suggestion off the top of my head. Any chance of posting a "performance bond" that you will supply x number of colonies at a certain strength by a certain date? In that case, you could demand payment up front, secured by the bond. As far as beetle inspection, just head for the southern counties that don't care, and certify your loads for fire ant. We Californians feel your pain about the drought, and wish you the best of luck! Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:31:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Beekeeping in Evanston, IL In-Reply-To: <8F2D4DA1-231D-45DF-B107-8EB1CEC77762@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steve Bonine wrote: effectively banned beekeeping in much of Evanston by establishing a 25-foot minimum clearance for the bees (many lots are only 50 feet wide). Very simple my dear Mr. Watson. The ordinance does not specify horizontal distance I'd almost bet my last dollar. They aren't too swift with legal wording. Put your hives on a five foot high stand in the middle of the fifty foot lot and the hives will be 25 feet away from the line on the ground, 25.5 feet from the line in fact. An eight foot high stand gives a distance of 26.4 feet. Have it in the middle of the lot on a second story porch and ya got it made. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 00:03:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Brian_Fredericksen?= Subject: Re: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I keep hearing how bad the drought "was" blah blah blah and I know it "was" west of here. In the lower 2/3rds of Mn and part of Wisco many keepers had their best season since 1988 with 150 pound averages. We were just east of the big drought and had just enough moisture to keep nectar flowing into August. While we don't make up a real large percentage of hives and migratory keepers, I don't see or hear the doom and gloom that the "experts" are claiming in the Midwest. . Speaking of the Midwest around here south of Des Moines, Iowa is called the "South" were people talk a bit different then us northern folk.. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:08:59 +0100 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: Almond Pollination In-Reply-To: <31416998.1160488091665.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2006-10-10 at 09:48 -0400, Tim Tucker wrote: > base units in CA and make splits in the almonds and ship those splits back to the mid-west for production, kill them off and ship empty boxes back to CA Tragic news about how to do agri-business. http://www.kilty.demon.co.uk/beekeeping.htm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:29:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit With all the [real and unreal] issues of hired pollination, I am surprises almond growers simply don't keep their own bees. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 20:50:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Queen problems In-Reply-To: <20061010.052433.26276.634534@webmail49.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar: Well, with coumaphos being neuro toxic for jumping nerves and apistan (fluvalinate) a memory retardant, first used on crops to keep bees from foraging, and bees do get hurt in bumpy transit, with 10-15% of queens needing to be replaced on a lot of pollenation moves each year, sounds like you might be into what could be happening, and would certainly make for changing combs out, so maybe they want to work again. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 06:24:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar and all, > With all the [real and unreal] issues of hired pollination, I am > surprises almond growers simply don't keep their own bees. This concept has been tried before, the problem is beekeeping is totally another business. When oil went to 70 dollars a barrel did we all go out and buy drill rigs? One grower that I know bought into a bee business as a partner, this way the foundation and core of the business is in place and you only have to expand as needed. BTW this grower also reads this list. Keith Jarrett Calif -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:33:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: almond pollination In-Reply-To: <20061011.053019.18248.998742@webmail05.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And where would the Growers get beekeepers to keep them alive??? Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 waldig@netzero.com wrote: I am surprises almond growers simply don't keep their own bees. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:18:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Queen problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>sounds like you might be into what could be happening, and would certainly make for changing combs out... I was talking about a fellow beekeeper - I have never used Coumophos or Apistan in my hives - who has not replaced his combs in some 26 years and has used both chemicals in alternate years since varroa showed up. Even the supply houses recommend replacing the wax every 3-5 years... In removing colonies from homes, I am always impressed with how healthy the bees and the brood look on uncontaminated comb. Albeit it's subjective, you'd swear such bees were happier. They certainly display a happier disposition. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:34:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Beekeeping in Evanston, IL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Steve - > > You should not believe everything you read in the > newspaper... especially if it relates to honey bees. The > Illinois State Beekeepers Association showed a great deal of > support by attending meeting and making presentations. > Illinois beekeepers - and others - wrote city officials in > support of beekeeping. We even made appearances on the > Chicago radio shows. It seemed that the committee that was > drafting the ordinance had a significant change in attitude > after they had a chance to listen. I have excerpted a short > piece from the email sent by the mother of the 14-year-old > who wanted to keep the bees.... > > hi friends, neighbors & nature lovers-- > > my head is still spinning after last night's City Council > meeting...the back and forth was fascinating, the whispered > translations of what was happening enlightening, and it was > hugely entertaining to see our polite little old mayor > struggle with a citizen commenter who wouldn't stop talking > until the mayor finally shut off the mic, but the upshot was... > > only a reasonable ordinance passed! i can't remember every > piece of it, but it does NOT involve the 25 foot setback, it > does NOT require a 6 foot high solid fence, and it does NOT > mandate an 8 foot high platform...it also does not > grandfather in current beekeepers, adds a > registration/licensing fee, and includes a stiff fine for > beekeepers who do not comply with the regulations. so, in > effect, it places responsibility on the beekeeper instead of > trying to control the bees. > > i am so proud of Evanston, for not going the way of Oak Park > and Berwyn--for staying true to its progressive stance and > pledge to be a green city... > > neighborhood bee party soon... > > and thank you all for the good wishes, showing up at > meetings, contacting aldermen, sharing your thoughts and > ideas, stopping by to introduce yourselves and chat, and > basically being there to support this important and complex > issue. it has been a gift to have been involved in this > endeavor and to meet and make friends with the amazing people > we have encountered. > > and i hope we have honey to share soon. > > best > Susan > > Steve... the situation here turned out well. A resource for > others in this situation is the ISBA website - www.isba.us. > Support is available there. > > Larry Krengel -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:30:41 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>This concept has been tried before, the problem is beekeeping is totally another business. A friend of mine from Yakima, Washington has about 30 acres of apple trees on the side (he has a custom machine design & fab business during the day). He is trying to interest one of his children in beekeeping as a hobby. The hives would be used in the spring to pollinate the apples. This is sustainable agriculture with many benefits. >>When oil went to 70 dollars a barrel did we all go out and buy drill rigs? This would not be quite as cost-effective since one would also need a refinery to process the oil... ;-) >>One grower that I know bought into a bee business as a partner... Absolutely. This sort of partnership is very sustainable and should be beneficial to both sides. It also takes advantage of local resources which is always a plus for communities. I am not suggesting that out of state beekeepers should not make an income in CA almonds. Out of state hives will always be needed to satisfy the demand of the growing acerage. However, developing and using local resources has many benefits and should be encouraged. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 07:51:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To all,=20 FYI, thieves stealing almonds out of the groves. Article can be found on line at. www.almondgrower.com=20 Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:53:16 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>And where would the Growers get beekeepers to keep them alive??? Many growers could and should become beekeepers... Many apple orchard owners are also certified spray applicators - one has to go through training in a state-approved program in Washington - and some could be beekeepers. Realizing that orchards are subject to spray applications and offer little forage to bees outside of the almond bloom period, the hives would have to be kept in outyards some distance from the orchards. I have been to CA only a few times but I believe outyards can be established where colonies could thrive most of the year. If bees can be kept in Arizona, they can be kept in California. AHB thrives throughout southern California. ;-) In time, local bees would adapt very well, through natural selection, to sync their annual cycle to the local conditions. Having said all of this, I am mindful of the potential size of such an undertaking! If it takes 2-4 hives per acre of almonds and, a grower has eg. 200 acres, it may not be cost-effective for the grower to maintain 400-800 hives just for almond pollination... although if pollination fees reach $150 per hive then $150*400 hives = $60,000 in pollination costs per year. I don't know if $60,000 means a lot to the average grower but I'd love to be a local beekeeper asked to fill this need... Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 11:22:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: almonds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar wrote: With all the [real and unreal] issues of hired pollination, I am surprises almond growers simply don't keep their own bees. Hi Waldemar They've got no place to keep 'em. They've also already got their hands full. There are a few who do, and some have become full-time beekeepers! Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:51:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar & all > A friend of mine from Yakima, Washington has about 30 acres of apple > trees on the side (he has a custom machine design & fab business > during the day). He is trying to interest one of his children in > beekeeping as a hobby. The hives would be used in the spring to > pollinate the apples. This is sustainable agriculture with many > benefits. If the avg almond orchard was 30 acres then this farming might have a chance,but most almond groves are much larger. Their are many positives to larger outfits, buying power, large modern equipment where one machine can handle several sections of ground. I have no problem with out-of-staters filling the demand for almonds. It's the best way to use our resources.It's just the free market at work,and is why this nation is where it is today in such a short time compare to other countries. Keith Jarrett Calif. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:30:45 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Apimondia second circular MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The full Second Circular for Apimondia 2007 in Melbourne in September = 2007 can now be viewed at www.apimondia2007.com Look forward to meeting many of the Bee-lers in Melbourne. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:55:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Queen problems In-Reply-To: <20061011.071905.26494.1001483@webmail51.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar: Yes, bees on clean more right sized combs are healthier from cutouts, so are bees not treated with various doping methods. These bees acclimitized more with local mating too are healthier and happier, for better matching flora for better diet and propolis needs, rather then mixing. So why is it then, beekeepers do so much artificially in the opposite direction, that then effects the the food and environment (both in hive and outside)the queens raised are dependent upon, in which to survive well? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 21:26:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "If almond growers quit and become beekeepers, th=". Rest of header flushed. From: walter weller Subject: Re: almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Randy,=0D=0A=0D=0AIf almond growers quit and become beekeepers, th= e almond business must really be lousy.=0D=0A=0D=0AWalter Weller=0D=0A= -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:32:50 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Queen problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>So why is it then, beekeepers do so much artificially in the opposite direction, that then effects the the food and environment (both in hive and outside)the queens raised are dependent upon, in which to survive well? Why? Indoctrination and conformity! ;-)) It's the same in medicine - we don't focus on restoring/maintaining wellness preferring to focus on dealing with symptoms. Cancer is a good example. The overwhelming majority of cancer patients subjected to orthodox radiation and chem therapies, die within short periods of time. Both therapies indiscriminately attack cancer & healthy cells and seriously weaken the patients' immune system. On the other hand, as derived through double-blind research studies, there are nutritional protocols that allow the body to repair its DNA and bring degenerated cancer cells under control. In the studies, high percentages of patients recover. So why don't folks get advised by the doctors to use alternative protocols? The pharmaceutical establishment would stand to lose their profits. That's why pharmaceutical interests often sponsor studies to discredit natural approaches. I suspect the same happens in beekeeping. What's my excuse for not using 4.9 combs? Despite the fact that I have yet to hear about anyone who's tried 4.9 combs and had colonies succumb to varroa, I've resisted converting my outfit. Since the start, I've been using plastic frames. I'd have to buy wooden frames and install 4.9 foundation -- I am not ready for the new, EXPENSIVE, full cell depth, 4.9 plastic frames. OA treatments, once a year, take care of my varroa issues and I don't have contaminated combs. Should this benign method fail due to the parasite building up resistance, I may switch to 4.9 cell. I'd be inclined to do it now if Pierco had it but they don't have immediate plans to introduce the new size. I also read about pseudoscorpins from India that attack varroa in hives without harming bees. This could be a good natural control of varroa in North America one day... Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 12:48:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Queen problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:55:37 -0700, Dee Lusby wrote: > So why is it then, beekeepers do so much artificially ... Laying aside any issues with the premise to your question, I think the answer is that all agriculture is "artificial" in the sense you use the word. Agriculture is different from hunting/gathering precisely in that it is "artificial," i.e. agriculture is defined by intervention/management/manipulation of natural systems. I think fundamentally your argument condemns beeKEEPING in general, as opposed to bee-hunting, but that's obviously not the case you're trying to make. Is there any rationale for how you differentiate between this or that manipulation or management procedure, calling one "natural" and casting an evil shadow over the other? It seems to me that if you want to be a "natural" purist you should only hunt and rob wild hives. If you're not willing to take that position, then I think it's absurd to talk in absolutes. We need to be careful not to draw haphazard pharasaical lines in the sand. That would be misleading and wrong, wouldn't it? Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:42:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Walter Weller wrote: If almond growers quit and become beekeepers, the almond business must really be lousy. Well put! I wonder if they threaten their septic tank pumpers that they are going to go into that business, too? We Calif beekeepers have never worried about the growers threatening to keep their own bees--they threatened even before varroa, when pollination fees were only a few dollars! We just tell 'em that we'll buy their used equipment in a few years when all their bees are dead! Randy oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:08:24 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Williams Subject: Pollen Beetles? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to whomever made me aware of Pollen Beetles. I have been fighting them for about 4 years now thinking they were SHB's and lost every battle to them. At least I think its Pollen Beetles. I don't know how to combat them and have asked my local(Central Florida) bee inspector to have the lab identify them for me so I can be sure that Pollen beetles (PB's) are what I am vexed with. They surely look like the pictures I found on the web. There are so many kinds of PB's. These guys fly in by the hundreds, I think they come in out of the surrounding orange groves when there is no pollen there and they come in for the pollen the bees have stored. The bees shortly will abscond. Any suggestions? George Williams FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 19:22:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Pollen Beetles? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit George, SHB has the two club parts on the antenna which is different than pollen beetles. Most pollen beetles are longer. The small hive beetle (SHB) antenna go out and then turn out at about a fofty five angle AND they have a club on the end. If I have described what you are seeing I suspect SHB. You are in the SHB capital of florida in central Florida. I found SHB in every hive I looked into in Florida last January and April. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 19:29:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Queen problems In-Reply-To: <20061012.093255.375.1014630@webmail50.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar, At least you can appraise and see what is happening, and then choose a holding pattern until things can be worked around more for now with a more neutral treatment for contamination, and not hurting bees too bad if timed properly. In the mean time, you are cutting out established swarms, and collecting bees to keep stocks up that are more in tune locally and not so mongrelized. It's surprising how many would rather put the bandaids on, rather then try to see more natural means available, and how they work, though right now, it, to many, still isn't cost effective for retooling, though in starting up new, the situation is different, for there is nothing to have to throw away and flatout replace like many commercial would have to do. I see you have read about the pseudoscorpins in India, but they are also found in many places of the USA also, at least out here, and we watch for them at times when working colonies, just like the little or bigger real scorpins. Why import when something is already here? But then that is another topic perhaps. And will it ever really fly anyways? But getting back, the size of the cell has bearing in that it creates in a way, the size of the worker bee, that then sets the stage for the size of the drones and queens; and by changing/fine tuning back to more natural smaller sizings used back turn of 1900, you get more versatility for foraging smaller herbals/medicinal plants for better brood turns spring and late summer. You also get a different aerodynamic body build in your bees for both foraging, and mating. Besides You throw in the lessening of mite reproduction too,and yes, you have in a way an alternative protocol that many are not using and IMPOV should, and which you seem to be seeking. Would be nice if pierco would comply as you would seem to want if available, but pierco is stubborn at times and then too, retooling moulds is costly, and the sales would need to be there, just like with the new Honey Super Cell completely drawn out frames now on the market. By the way did you know that the bottom of the cells in the HSC frames are .1mm smaller so that with queens laying in, and knowing that the royal jelly is filled to a certain height, that you are within the realm of a decent 4.9 frame on the actual bottom of the cells, and by approaching 4.85 halfway up the inside of the cell, you have the royal jelly for the most part below that line, which helps to give it better control for what it is advertised to do. For the 4.9 ID on the opening is more in line with a 5.0 cell counting cell walls in 10 linear measurements, but with the reduction in the bottom due to the injection processing, it is more in line where actually needed for the brood, and on top is more in line for extracting, for more ease in getting honey out IMPOV having looked at the frames. Just take 2-3 frames to do an initial shakedown in small nuc, and put say SC 4.9 foundation around it later when queen laying in, and the bees have something to key to for queen to lay in automatically fully drawnout, and then feed in more economical foundation later to build up. Of course if you have the money from almond pollenation then just go for it and have brood comb and honey extracting combs both from an interchangeable standpoint that are durable. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 22:38:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Queen problems In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric writes: agriculture is defined by intervention/management/manipulation of natural systems. I think fundamentally your argument condemns beeKEEPING in general, as opposed to bee-hunting, but that's obviously not the case you're trying to make. Reply: You are right in that agriculture is defined keyed to "natural systems" which then makes me wonder why bees are artificially enlarged with oversized foundations, robbed of all stores and fed artificial feeds,bred within unnatural systems, and then medicated when they get sick, for nothing is natural about all of doing this for sure! then beekeepers want to know what is going wrong for some reason...........I can only wonder why. Eric continued: Is there any rationale for how you differentiate between this or that manipulation or management procedure, calling one "natural" and casting an evil shadow over the other? Reply: Well to me, to be natural for size for example, would be to be with foundation/comb sizing within the natural sizing spectrum/range of sizing and not above it. To be breeding one would be working with acclimitized local/regional stocks keyed to local/regional floras, and would be trying to undo complex mongrelization that has occurred over the years by so much mixing of the various bees on today's market many of which are quite inbred IMPOV. Also to be natural, once centainly wouldn't take most to all of the natural diet away from our bees and then feed back the artificial. So basically, the closer you can mimic the natural environment settings the bees are from, the closer you are to natural and the further away you are from doing it the more you are on an artificial non-sustainable system for the long-haul that then only creates problems. I'm not saying we can ever really get back to all 100% natural and feed a world, especially working with langs and even TBHs, for they are man created, but we certainly can let lose of much of the artificial gimicky that is hurting industry so bad, while keeping that which let's us keep our bees healthy and let's us do a decent day's work. So you like making many treatment runs? So you like making many feeding runs and food change outs? Do you do that to other animals taking all? As for size of cell/foundation, well, if the shoe fits and creates no blisters/problems then keep it. HOwever if it makes you hurt and then affects you health overall as many with bad feet say, then someday you have to change the shoes to fit to get well! Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 07:44:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Natural Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit quote: > So basically, the closer you can mimic the natural environment settings the bees are from, the closer you are to natural and the further away you are from doing it the more you are on an artificial non-sustainable system for the long-haul that then only creates problems. I am 56 and have been interested in Nature most of those years. One of my first heroes was Tarzan, Mr. Nature himself. Then I learned Thoreau wrote a book on our relationship with nature. Finally, in 1989, Bill McKibben penned "The End of Nature." Without going into it in detail, the book shows how nature is not really a separate entity from us, we have altered every corner of the planet, that nature is now a thing to visit in gardens and preserves. Occasionally she makes herself heard with hurricanes and other disasters. Natural in the USA would mean: no honeybees. Eat only vennison, corn and acorns. No almonds, no beef, etc. You get the drift. It is comical to talk about nature as we drive around in our big trucks and produce honey by the tanker load. I am a little tired of people getting up on the soapbox and claiming to be "more natural than thou". I know plenty of beekeepers who would just as soon stop applying chemicals if they could, but every time they do the bees croak. You can't do beekeeping with no bees. Keeping bees in northern climates is a whole different ball game from the south. I lived near the Mexican border and now near the Canadian border so I know what I am talking about. What works in your area often won't translate to another area. Natural beekeeping is great as a concept, but it doesn't really add up to more than a pipedream. It would be more natural to leave the bees the hell alone and go back to grinding acorns. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 07:21:34 -0500 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: Small Hive Beetle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Randy Oliver wrote, To all, We had a great opportunity to speak with Dr. Keith Delaplane this past weekend at our Kansas meeting. He mentioned that his work is now focusing on SHB instead of Varroa. He has spent the last ten years working on Varroa and establishing Economic Injury Levels and Thresholds for Varroa in colonies and IPM techniques that can help reduce some of the need for chemicals. He will be working on establishing the same for SHB and mentioned the difference in soil types. My first notice of a type of Nematoad that attacks SHB larvae in the soil was this weekend when Dr. Delaplane said Nematoads would be the area to investigate. If my notes are correct the Nematoad is Herohabditis - Megidis. It is his feeling that these nematoads thrive in certain soil types and not others and there will be research to determine if that is the case. If it is the soil type, unbalanced PH or perhaps natural hosts that thrive in these soils that the nematoads normally prey upon. It has been k! nown now for a time that something is going on in the spread of SHB and they are not as successful in some areas as compared to others. Perhaps this is the answer and providing the area around our hives with these nematoads will provide another non-chemical treatment for SHB in areas where soil nematoads are not present in large numbers. I certainly hope this is the case as I would like to minimize the use of residual pesticide soil treatment. I have not found this particular nematoad for sale at any of the sites I use for beneficials such as buglogical.com. I've used nematoads as they seem to cut down on pecan borers and affect as many as 200 types of insects that pupate in the soil. Last time I bought 10 million of the bacteriophora nematoads they shorted me by a few thousand however. The first time I saw a picture of a full blown infestation I was ready to give up beekeeping altogether, but after two exposures to SHB in the last two years, I can tell you they are not the horrific situation I feared and I don't think it will be anywhere near the problem that mites have been, at least in my area: hard clay soils in bottoms and pretty alkaline. The answer is keep hives strong and hived in space they can cover. When I have a hive that starts suffering, I requeen and knock back to a single during recovery period. If they don't fill a single, combine. I completely eliminated two infestations thus far by isolating affected hives in the fall and winter and manually knocking beetles off of frames into oil filled pan. Trapping didn't work at least in my situation. The beetles seem to like to winter in strong hives and will abandon weaker ones to almost cluster together in larger numbers in hives better able to survive the winter, kind of like ladybugs and box elder bugs. It is time consuming and something you can do if you don't have 100 hives affected. It's just not been the problem I anticipated. A yeast attractant is also coming soon that might make for better baiting of traps. Is anyone in California doing research on why SHB isn't taking off there? Tim Tucker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:35:18 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Queen problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>It's surprising how many would rather put the bandaids on, rather then try to see more natural means available, and how they work... It's how our society, through the media, the industrial complex & special interests, shapes the minds for passive acceptance. Critical thinking and taking responsibility for consequences are on the backburner... Very few beekeeping books truly inform on how to objectively gain insight into the state of a colony without jumping to pre-mature conclusions and reaching for dangerous remedies. And the hive - that dark, mysterious place guarded by its fearless citizens with pain- inflicting weapons - does not easily yield its secrets. Only patient, inquisitive minds uncover some of the mysteries. Having said this, I'll be the first to admit to not being an expert on bees. Every season I try different things and learn new aspects of bee behavior. >>I see you have read about the pseudoscorpins in India, but they are also found in many places of the USA also, at least out here... Really? Do you know if they also eat your varroa? >>Why import when something is already here? But then that is another topic perhaps. You are right. No need to import pseudoscorpions if they are already here. It would be great to know if the US types eat varroa and if they could overwinter in the hives up north. >>by changing/fine tuning back to more natural smaller sizings used back turn of 1900, you get more versatility for foraging smaller herbals/medicinal plants for better brood turns spring and late summer. Honestly, I don't understand how a smaller bee is more inclined to forage herbal plants but I don't dispute it, either. I do see wild colonies doing quite well around here. Their brood cells are typically 5,0 mm. >>Would be nice if pierco would comply as you would seem to want if available, but pierco is stubborn at times and then too, retooling moulds is costly... Retooling a mold (especially a multi-cavity mold) is expensive. I don't know how Pierco molds are set-up. I assume they have removeable pins for each cell so they can replace them as they wear out. Switching to smaller pins would be relatively easy if the distance from cell to cell did not have to change.... >>and the sales would need to be there... One quality study by a reputable lab that would show good varrao control, would ensure plentiful sales. >>For the 4.9 ID on the opening is more in line with a 5.0 cell counting cell walls in 10 linear measurements Pins used for molds do need to be tapered for the ease of ejection after the part is made. When you measure 4.9 mm on your comb, do you measure at the top or the bottom of the cell? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:53:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Williams Subject: Re: Pollen Beetles? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, My bee inspector advised this AM that I do have an infestation of Powder Beetles! He confirmed it with the lab at Gainesville, FL. However, as yet, we have no advice on how to control them without killing the bees too. The bees do not attack them at all. Any suggestions, other than to move? LOL George W -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 08:59:18 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Natural beekeeping is great as a concept, but it doesn't really add up to more than a pipedream. It would be more natural to leave the bees the hell alone and go back to grinding acorns. Peter, I am afraid that you are right. You are right because people like you (and I don't mean offense), just simply can't wrap their arms around it. There are many of us who've been chem free for several years now. Some people many several years, and even some who never put chems in their hive since the beginning of time (this is an expression obviously). We seem to be doing just fine and thriving. It's not about soapboxes and not about who's better than the next person. It's about the sustainability of the industry and feeding clean food to our children. It's about the industry accepting that it was wrong, and it IS wrong if there are so many of us doing so well without chems. We aren't an anomoly, we are a growing group. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:16:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Queen problems In-Reply-To: <20061012.093255.375.1014630@webmail50.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: > > Why? Indoctrination and conformity! ;-)) It's the same in medicine - > we don't focus on restoring/maintaining wellness preferring to focus > on dealing with symptoms. Cancer is a good example. The > overwhelming majority of cancer patients subjected to orthodox > radiation and chem therapies, die within short periods of time. Both > therapies indiscriminately attack cancer & healthy cells and > seriously weaken the patients' immune system. > > On the other hand, as derived through double-blind research studies, > there are nutritional protocols that allow the body to repair its DNA > and bring degenerated cancer cells under control. In the studies, > high percentages of patients recover. > I realize this is off topic, but I have a major problem with this unsupported statement, mainly because I am a cancer survivor and the comments are patently false and irresponsible. The following link addresses this well. http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/conspiracy.html The problem with cancer is that it is not one disease but many. Even specific cancers can progress differently. I have malignant melanoma which was found in a lymph node. It was confined to one spot for several years and did not spread and grew slowly. It was removed. After three years, I have no detectable cancer. But the majority of those whose melanoma is found in a lymph node found that the cancer spread and grew quickly. Most died soon after. It is one of those cancers that is still deadly. I did a lot of research on conventional and alternate treatments for cancer, especially my specific cancer. Most of the " natural"substances can inhibit some cancer's growth or kill it, but most of those studies are in a petri dish and not with people. Bourbon will kill cancer in a petri dish, but it is one of the worst cancer agents since it causes your cancer to spread faster. There is a similarity with natural cancer cures and natural beekeeping. You read about the successes but seldom about the failures. If you die from cancer under a Doctor's care, you are a statistic and a measure of the failure of modern medicine. Your single digit shows up in the database. If you die in a natural care center, your fate will never make it. We have seen the same thing in beekeeping. Those who go off the beaten path and fail, do not tell others about their failure but disappear. But the successes are reported with relish to the point that they seem to be the norm. So you try it and fail and it obviously is because you did not do it correctly, since all others obviously succeeded- when in truth, they did not. We have lost a lot of beekeepers that way. My wife talked to a friend who wanted to go down the natural cure route for her breast cancer. My wife told here about my arthritis and bee stings and that the stinging kept the cancer in check. Maybe so, but there are people who did not get stung and their melanoma did not spread. I got on the phone and told her to stay with conventional medicine. I could have touted bee stings as a cure for melanoma. But what cured me was surgery to take it out and that it had not spread. Many, if not most, cancers today have exceptionally high cure rates when treated under a Doctor's care. If you are diagnosed with cancer today, it is not a death sentence as it was only some 15-20 years ago. Chemo and radiation are much more tolerable and targeted to the cancer and not the body as a whole. They are not indiscriminate. Other agents reduce side effects and boost the immune system. If I were told today that my cancer had spread, I would not hesitate to go with either chemo or radiation, whichever could target it the best. I addresses the natural method with the surgeon who removed my cancer. He had a close friend when he was young who also had melanoma but easily seen on their ear. It had to be removed, but the patient did not want the physical scarring, so went from doctor to doctor until they found one who would treat them naturally. They died within a few months. Under absolutely no circumstances would I recommend or try a "natural" treatment. I value the lives of my friends and neighbors as well as my own. Plus, there was one more false statement. Many health organizations (including my HMO and the two hospitals in my area) promote preventative medicine. One hospital uses the local access TV channel to do just that, including managing and preventing specific illnesses such as diabetes. Doctor's do treat symptoms exclusively, but isn't that why you went to them in the first place? You are past education at that point. Finally. The majority of those reading this have cancer, it is just that you do not know it. Your body will naturally kill it off. You will get many diseases that will be cured by your own system yet will show no symptoms. The problem diseases are those which go into overdrive and overwhelm your system no matter what your lifestyle, natural or not. When you read the list of natural food gurus and what they die of, it is not much different than those who go down a different path. I love the books written by Euell Gibbons, on eating natural foods that are healthy and found in the wild. I still eat many of the plants he pointed out. Euell died soon after his last book of heart disease. The natural crowd tried to blame it on other things. But all those natural foods should have taken care of any disease. I love the latest research that show that an extensive exercise regimen and staying thin add 10 months to your life compared to moderate sloth and moderately overweight..You will gain 10 months in assisted care if you deny yourself, exercise regularly, just to end up sitting there for those months just like your already deceased counterpart did for most of their life, but you will be thin. A lot easier on the pallbearers. The key to living long is to pick your parent carefully and enjoy the life God has given you.. Please pass the chips. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:26:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe bossom Subject: interesting discussion. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the natural vs. "assisted": beekeeping discussion is interesting even if = it changes no one's mind. Can some scholar amongst you tell me what = sort of bees are native to North America? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:39:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > I am a little tired of people getting up on the soapbox and claiming to be > "more natural than thou". I know plenty of beekeepers who would just as soon > stop applying chemicals if they could, but every time they do the bees > croak. You can't do beekeeping with no bees. > > There has been excellent research on man's attempt to create a natural environment in the National Parks. The problem was that they took several parts of nature out of the parks thinking they were making them more natural or to preserve them. One was hunting. Through the ages, man killed quite a few deer, elk and other game for food. When man was removed from the "balance" the grazer populations exploded and changed the ecology of the parks so they were no longer in "balance". Fire is the same. It is natural, but we manage it into being unnatural. So now our parks are proclaimed natural but they are not like they once were when they were natural and men let the fires burn (or burned them on purpose) and killed game. We seem to exclude ourselves from nature and think, because we are not a tree, we are not natural. We create our habitat and it is our "natural" habitat, even if it is in a skyscraper. Everything we do is natural (except some things on Television), since we are a part of nature. Nature is never in balance. It is always changing, otherwise there would be T-Rex in your backyard. But the T-Rex would be on 4.9 foundation. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:03:20 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?Windows-1252?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Beekeeping to visit in Hawai / LA area MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am planning a trip for Finnish beekeepers For Apimondia 2007 in Melbourne. We have been planning of travelling back through New Zealand, Hawaii and California ( Los Angeles) . I know that New Zealand has many beekeeping places to visit so no problem there. But then we have to choose if we stop for about 3 days in Honolulu or in LA. I do think that Hawaii sounds quite exotic and nice place for most Finnish beekeepers whose hives are in snow for 4 –6 months / year. But we would like to see also beekeeping. Does anyone know how much there is to see in Ohau island about beekeeking ? Kona Queen would be nice, but maybe we don’t have time/money to go from Ohau to main island just for that. And if we end up thinking that LA is better, what would you recommend to see in mid-Sptember 2007 Ari Seppälä Finland ari.seppala@hunaja.net -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 07:21:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: interesting discussion. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, > Can some scholar amongst you tell me what sort of bees are native to North America? > All those that were born in North America. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 11:14:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: cave drawings of beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in search of an internet site that has the picutures of the early cave drawing of honey being harvested. The oldest one I believe is from Spain and others were found in Africa. I am sure I have seen them somewhere, but now I need them for a presentation and they seem to be hiding. Any help is appreciated. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 12:36:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: native bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe Bossom wrote: Can some scholar amongst you tell me what sort of bees are native to North America? Hi Joe, It may be presumptuous of me to qualify myself as a scholar. Nonetheless, it won't change the fact that there are about 4000 species of bees native to N.A. The vast majority are solitary, mostly ground-nesting species. No honeybees are native to the temperate North. Bumblebees are the only other honey-producing species (in small quantitites). Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 12:39:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Law Subject: Wired magazine article on medical honeys for wound treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Wired magazine web article on use of medical honey for wound treatment. http://www.wired.com/news/technology/medtech/0,71925-0.html?tw=rss.index -- Dennis Law ( aka Paul D. Law ) Brooklyn South Community Emergency Response Team Logistics Section -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 11:59:01 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: interesting discussion. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As Keith has pointed out, a native bee was born here. Nativity is where you were born. Endemia is where your "group" originated from or has been established for so long that you are an important part of the historic ecology. I.e. White Tail Deer are endimic to North America, but one can be born in Europe in a zoo, and it is a native of Europe in that case even though they are endemic to North America. The bees that were endemic to the americas are the trigona and melipona species of bees. These are stingless bees which build tiny nests in comparison to Apis mellifera. There are however records of european honey bees having been carried to the east coast of the americas as early as the vikings. And there is some supporting genetic evidence that bees crossed the asian/alaskan ice bridge along with people (ancestors of the inuits and other Endemic American Tribes). These people as well also have asian genetic markers. Don't ask me for references, I don't save them. It's important to me for me, not to prove it to others. Everyone here know that I don't often have references to share. Sometimes, but not very often. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 12:51:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: small hive beetle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is anyone in California doing research on why SHB isn't taking off there? Tim Tucker Haven't heard of any. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 17:22:45 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Queen problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I did a lot of research on conventional and alternate treatments for cancer, especially my specific cancer. Most of the " natural"substances can inhibit some cancer's growth or kill it, but most of those studies are in a petri dish and not with people. Bill, I am not an expert on cancer. I do know cancer is an abnormal growth of cells that outpace healthy cells. It seems to affect us more as we age since our DNA replication becomes increasingly imperfect. In my view, nutritional supplements that help the cells repair the DNA are key to reversing and then preventing cancer. >>cure route for her breast cancer. My wife told here about my arthritis and bee stings and that the stinging kept the cancer in check. Maybe so, but there are people who did not get stung and their melanoma did not spread. It seems to me that the stinging triggered something in the body that allowed it to help itself. Without chemo or radiation. This is good. Stinging is beneficial in a significant number of MS cases, too. I don't hold my breath that the medical establishment will warm up to it any time soon though. Beekeeping reps don't offer doctors/nurses free perks like dinners etc. I am not a big fan of the so-called 'quack-busters.' It's not a topic for this list. >>But what cured me was surgery to take it out and that it had not spread. I am glad that surgery was helpful. My wife is an RN in the operating room so I get a lot of first-hand info but surgery is the last resort for me. A lot of surgery is preventable with life style changes. As far as medical care and hospitals, I'd refer to a recent issue of Newsweek. There is an objective article on how some hospitals are starting to turn themselves around. It's encouraging. >>Plus, there was one more false statement. Many health organizations (including my HMO and the two hospitals in my area) promote preventative medicine. In a periodic circular sent to members or in practice? I am of a different opinion. If I had my way, medicine would primarly be used to evaluate one's health, provide healthy guidelines and then focus on monitoring one's well being. Those choosing to smoke, drink, use drugs, let themselves get obese etc. would be required to bear their disproportionate portion of today's healthcare costs. I realize this would not be easy to implement but it should be the goal. >>Euell died soon after his last book of heart disease. The natural crowd tried to blame it on other things. But all those natural foods should have taken care of any disease. This is wrong. Natural foods don't contain all the nutrients in sufficient quantities we need to maintain wellness. Good luck in finding carnosine in a plant food! According to quality studies, supplementation is needed. If you ever notice, strict vegetarians who don't supplement age quite quickly. >>I love the latest research that show that an extensive exercise regimen and staying thin add 10 months to your life compared to moderate sloth and moderately overweight.. Good exercise is 25% of the recipe. The other 25% is good nutrition. The remaining 50% is your mindset. >>The key to living long is to pick your parent carefully and enjoy the life God has given you.. ;-) I agree although I have not seen any evidence that the 1st part is possible... One has to work with what they have been given. If you continually strive to eliminate toxins (chem and stress), you automatically increase your chances of a long, healthy life. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:49:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I consider myself to be a "natural" beekeeper. I use no Apistan, Check-Mite, Terramycin, Fumidil-B, or any other pyrethroid or organophosphates (unapproved insecticides like Tactik or however you spell it). My bees prosper. I count mites under screen bottom boards and catch feral swarms to raise my own queens. More and more, I requeen annually. I run around 150 hives. Some colonies have no mites at all, others seem to have quite a load and seem to prosper just the same. And yes, some colonies die out in my yards, but no more than when I used chemicals. To me, my present practices are more of a winnowing process of the weaker, more susceptible hives. I use fogged mineral oil, fortified with a selection of essential oils. I place a shop towel soaked in canola oil over the top bars, and quite frankly, there is nothing "natural" about oily shop towels in a bee hive. And any oil is still a "chemical." And I must remind myself that essential oils, when used as a pesticide, are not approved either. I have not had much success with small cell, probably my fault in poor attempts at regression. I've had better luck using strips of foundation to allow the bees to draw out cell sizes of their own choosing (and it seems to be a fair amount of drone cells in some of the hives). I LOVE plastic foundation, but that's not very natural either. It may, in the end, simply be a battle of semantics. I'm not really interested in arguing or discussing issues. While I like to listen to the opinions of others, while I will gladly and joyfully affirm your success (whether chemical or natural), I think there is greater power in sharing our journeys rather than trying to predetermine the destination. I do find it easier to simply fly under the radar and do my own thing. While I try not to be "more natural than thou," or convert the chemically "heathen," it's hard to be "natural" in the face of "there's no way you can do it without chemicals," or "there are no more feral swarms left." There are some who preach the message of "more chemical than thou" as well, as if that was the only way to raise bees. The beauty of keeping bees is that whatever method you choose to raise your bees, it is the condition of your bees that will be the true indicator of your success. Is it possible there is more than one way to raise bees, even as we try to define it as "natural" or "chemical?" Just my 2 cents. I'm going back under the radar now. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:06:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ted_Hancock?= Subject: Future of beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have been following the discussion on almond pollination and current trends in our industry. There seems to be a general consensus that regulations are bad and beekeepers should be free to operate as they see fit. There is an analogous debate going on in B.C. over fish farms. The B.C. government is letting people set up "fish farms" along our coast. These involve nets full of fish which the fish farmer supplies with food. Research has shown that these farms produce great clouds of a parasitic sea lice that infect and kill up to 95% of passing wild salmon. So although fish farms are boosting our economy, they are killing off wild salmon. For this reason the Alaskan government (the darned communists) have banned fish farms. I give this example to show that there is at least one North American jurisdiction that doesn't have complete faith in the free market system. Currently in North America we have hundreds of beekeepers who make a living from honeybees without moving their hives. But we can see from recent posts on bee-l that the industry profile is moving towards large migratory operations. Some think we could improve the industry even more by allowing the free movement of beehives from souther Mexico to northern Canada and back. If this happens I believe it will squeeze out most 'stay- at-home' operations. They will have no pollination income and will not make a honey crop when someone drops 5000 hives in their area. I can buy some of the arguments (like you won't see the wife for six months at a time) that this is progress but for the fact that we will have gone from an industry that burns relatively little fossil fuel to one that burns a lot. Honeybees need a clean environment to thrive and this new beekeeping industry will have seriously increased the pollution of our planet by constantly transporting hives all over the continent. So why are beekeepers happily embracing this future for beekeeping? To please the almond growers? To prove we're not communists? Oh ya, I remember, to make more money before we die. I keep forgetting how important that is. Keep on truckin, Ted Thinking: Some of you may be using bad smoker fuel. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:18:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Do comments on Bee-L reflect consensus views of the beekeeping industry? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ted said "There seems to be a general consensus that regulations are bad and beekeepers should be free to operate as they see fit." and "we can see from recent posts on bee-l that the industry profile is moving towards large migratory operations." One needs to be careful with such generalizations. For example, I doubt that any of the largest 100 U.S beekeepers are members of Bee-L, yet they surely account for a huge portion of the hives maintained in the US. More precisely, there are fewer than five U.S. members of Bee-L that regularly submit posts that also have more than 1,000 hives. We should not presume that those who do submit posts speak for even a majority of all beekeepers who have at least 1,000 hives. That is not to say that I do not personally subscribe to the views Ted outlined. I just don't think that one can take views expressed from the few large beekeepers who share notes on Bee-L and extend those views to very many other large beekeepers. Perhaps...but perhaps not. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:46:08 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: native bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amber found in minnesota and NJ has samples of mellipona and trigona. These are temperate locations. Honey Bees are endemic to temperate climates including northern europe and asia. They might have originated from the tropics, however is has been shown also that ALMOST ALL life originated in the tropics (mostly africa) and moved out as it adapted over millions of years. It should also be noted that when life developed, the earth looked extremely different than today, climatically, geographically and systematically (meaning it's orientation and mode of travel and motion within the solar system) I believe the question was relating to honey producing bees. Not all bees store honey, and most that do are not edible for us, or at least distasteful to us. We are now approaching the limit of the scope of this list. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:54:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter writes: Natural in the USA would mean: no honeybees. Reply: So much for politically correct rather then what is born here and here yet so long. Peter continues: I know plenty of beekeepers who would just as soon stop applying chemicals if they could, but every time they do the bees croak. Reply: Yes, the addiction to the pesticide treadmill is rough and it is extremely hard undoing and going back. But this is still the road many pick unfortunately. But then that is what freedom to do and farm is supposedly about. Peter continuing: Keeping bees in northern climates is a whole different ball game from the south. Reply: Funny, I was born and raised in the north and now live in the south, and really don't see much difference other then time of year things are done. Peter ending: Natural beekeeping is great as a concept, but it doesn't really add up to more than a pipedream. It would be more natural to leave the bees the hell alone and go back to grinding acorns. Reply: You know Peter it is said to each his own for making one's way in life. Some want it fast and easy and always look for ways to cut corners, but in the end you learn to do what works, and that means for you, and how you live. Yes it is more natural to leave the bees alone and follow the bees and their needs...................but do you have that much time for grinding acorns, while they sort it out, so when done, you can restart working with them again, in tune what what they want and need in a co-existant relationship? Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:19:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Future of beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Hancock wrote: > > Currently in North America we have hundreds of beekeepers who make a > living from honeybees without moving their hives. But we can see from > recent posts on bee-l that the industry profile is moving towards large > migratory operations. The industry profile has been that way for along time. It is not recent at all. We have had migratory beekeepers in Maine for many years. Plus we had the same heat over Tracheal and Varroa that California is exhibiting over SHB. All we have is a repeat of history with a new cast of characters. The archives are wonderful, but also a little depressing. A lot like a person lost in a snowy wood that finds a set of footprints and know that all he need do is follow them to safety. Then he sees that someone else's footprints have joined the person he is following so knows he is even more sure of safety. Then another and he is elated to know how right he is in following the prints. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:59:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Queen problems In-Reply-To: <20061013.102326.10246.460538@webmail30.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: > This is wrong. Natural foods don't contain all the nutrients in > sufficient quantities we need to maintain wellness. Good luck in > finding carnosine in a plant food! According to quality studies, > supplementation is needed. If you ever notice, strict > vegetarians who don't supplement age quite quickly. > I checked out "carnosine" and find it is pushed rather strongly as a longevity supplement by the natural foods group. I found many "trials" of it but mostly from organizations I have never heard of. There is a trial published in the NIH records that discounts any tie of it to longevity. I am astounded by the statement > Natural foods don't contain all the nutrients in > sufficient quantities we need to maintain wellness. Meat is the source of carnosine. Meat is natural, hence the statement makes no sense. Last I looked humankind is still hunter-gatherer. We are going far afield, so I will not answer any further posts unless beekeeping related. > It seems to me that the stinging triggered something in the body that > allowed it to help itself. Without chemo or radiation. I would like that to be true, but it is not. If I had pushed this on others as a "natural" cure, I would be irresponsible. Any decent scientist would recognize it as anecdotal. I spoke of this a few years ago, that all spokespersons for natural cancer cures have had cancer and survived, so it obviously works, since they are standing in front of us and selling whatever natural food they distribute. The whole industry is anecdotal since it was moved away from the FDA by the natural food industry. You need no science to sell snake oil. The problem with those who tout their cure from cancer, and what most fail to grasp, is that the dead cannot refute the living. You can speak of your failures as a beekeeper, but you cannot when you fail to cure your cancer. You are dead and that spokesperson is still alive enjoying your money. So you will not find anyone who can speak to you about the fact that the cure does not work, since there are only the living to speak to. Science has to record its failures and publish them. There the dead do speak. Not so in the natural foods world. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:38:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: cave drawings of beekeepers Comments: To: Larry Krengel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Larry, Pic of cave drawing in Spain: http://www.dengold.co.uk/blog/2006/08/10/beekeeping-the-start-of-a-new- adventure/print/ Beekeeping in Egypt: http://www.texasdrone.com/Beekeeping/history_of_beekeeping.htm IF you go on this site, there is a free PowerPoint presentation of the history of beekeeping that includes several cave drawings. http://www.bee-commerce.com/downloads.asp Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 20:34:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote: >Natural in the USA would mean: no honeybees. Eat only vennison, corn and >acorns. No almonds, no beef, etc. That’s why I’m an Ecological Beekeeper. This way I can keep bees Ecologically in America. :) >Without going into it in detail, the book shows how nature is not really a >separate entity from us, we have altered every corner of the planet, OK, If the things we do make us an entity with nature, then you contradict your self, honeybees in America introduced by man would then be a part of Americas nature. I would say that when the natural environment changes, it becomes natural and part of nature weather we want to admit it or not. Rats feeding in dumpsters, completely natural! I know plenty of beekeepers who would just as soon >stop applying chemicals if they could, but every time they do the bees >croak. You can't do beekeeping with no bees. Well, it’s probably because the bees have been kept so unnaturally they now have become dependant unnatural things to keep them alive. I’m now on my 6th year without using any treatments and no feeding in my colonies, and they are thriving for me. >Natural beekeeping is great as a concept, but it doesn't really add up to >more than a pipedream. You can pick apart definitions to any term. No beekeeping is 100% natural, but I strive as much as possible to keep my honeybees under a system of harmonious relationship between the honeybee, beekeeper and the environment, by using beekeeping methodry that promotes the healthy development of the honeybee colony and its natural way of living together with the needs of the beekeeper. Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 21:17:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Queen problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry Wallace wrote: > Maybe supercedure issue is not all due to chemical usage. My feelings is that the weakened immune of the honeybee caused by chemical use and contaminates in comb is also permitting viruses to impact the health of the colony and queen, causing an increase supercedure rate. I have some clips from a few studies: In this study, researchers suggest a connection of viruses with queen supercede. “Localization of deformed wing virus infection in queen and drone Apis mellifera L” "Queen fecundity is a central element in colony performance for honey production that could be impaired by viral infections. For instance, the undesired queen supersedure observed regularly by beekeepers may be related to viral infections. There are several reasons for untimely queen changing by workers in a colony, such as pathological impairment of its reproductive functions, lack of pheromone emission and lack of fully active spermatozoa in the spermatheca and decreasing sperm viability with the ageing of queens. Very few investigations have been published regarding factors affecting the fertility of the queens and the drones" ---------> In this study, researchers find that some viruses were present on all queens tested. “Prevalence and Transmission of Honeybee Viruses” “Distribution of viruses in the body of queens. The results of RT-PCR analysis on tissues of hemolymph, gut, ovaries, spermatheca, head, and eviscerated body from 10 queens for the presence of six viruses are shown in Table 1. Among the six viruses screened, ABPV was not found in any materials. BQCV, CBPV, DWV, KBV, and SBV were detected in one or more queen tissues. Except for tissues of the head, which were negative for all six viruses, the other five tissue samples were found to be virus positive. The presence of DWV was found in 100% of hemolymph samples, 80% of gut samples, 100% of ovary samples, 80% of spermatheca samples, and 100% of eviscerated body samples. The presence of BQCV was found in 100% of gut samples and 70% of ovary samples. The presence of SBV was found in 40% of ovary samples, 20% of hemolymph samples, and 60% of eviscerated body samples. The presence of CBPV was found in 30% of hemolymph and 40% of eviscerated body samples. The presence of KBV was found in 20% of the eviscerated body samples.” Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:13:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Pollen Beetles? In-Reply-To: <315.d1f9ee2.3260f460@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit George W. You know in a way with SHB starting in Florida with troubles, and knowing that putting dopes/treatments into a beehive makes for imbalance with all co-existant relationships that the substances touch, and knowing that pollen beetles have like other so-called pests/predators and diseases only become that way by being put into an unbalanced situation...........then eliminating the pollen beetles, the bees really might not want to do in a way, yet they haven't learned how to cope with the imbalance thrown upon them by doping/treatmens for other beetles in the hives. Same could be said with mites of which some are beneficial in beehives also.. So the question would be how to get them back into balance? Any thoughts so far? Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:05:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: mite fall question for Dee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dee In a recent post, you suggested that people shouldn't freak out about a large mite fall during the late summer brood turnover. I see this in my colonies, yet can't find any studies with long-term stickyboard counts to document this phenomenon--a spike in mite fall, then a drop afterward. Could you please describe your observations, or post a study reference? Thanks, Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 07:54:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: Do comments on Bee-L reflect consensus views of the beekeeping industry? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted, Lloyd & all I enjoyed reading both of your last posts, I think it is worth noting. Some keepers get on here and spread mis information, not knowing that it is merly speculation. One comes to mind, the drought , my bees that I take on from N.D. this year made 145 pounds. A friend of mine that I unloaded for, from S.D earlier this week (three loads) made 105 pounds and look good with bee population when I set them on the ground here in Calif. One person is quoting another, saying up to 100 thousand hives short in the up coming almond pollination due to the drought, this same person last year was qouting 200 dollars for pollination by Jan.The funny thing here is, that his name was never mentioned before on BEE-L, because those beekeepers did not know who he was or exsised .It's merely posting a bunch of yic-yak (rumors) and trying to sound intelligent. I DON'T know how much of an impact the drought will have on the up coming almond pollination, the funny thing is, neither does anyone else at this time. Lloyd, I did not know that there was only a few of us that posted on BEE-L that ran over a thousand hives. On one of my last post (10-10-6) my last line reads, I'm only a part timer. P.S. @ 1500 hives Keith Jarrett Calif -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:18:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Williams Subject: Re: Pollen Beetles? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, Thanks for your concerns, I really enjoy your contributions to this list , I didn't ask for chemicals per se. I guess I could have said any suggestions about "control". Re: "your the question would be how to get them back into balance?" That's just too grand a concept for me to embrace. It's like fighting with the P.E.T.A. people that want us to turn all the bees loose because it's not natural to keep bee's in small portable labor camps and move them around the country(world). And just to help you out of bee keeping they turn your hives over and worse. You can see that I am not going into the virtues of 'Natural vs. Chemicals" with the two big citrus grove owners who own but never see these groves that I am nestled between here in FL. They are managed by Grove Management Co's that couldn't care less about my pollen beetle problem. Nowadays most oranges don't need bees to fruit! But I need bees to make citrus honey, I don't move my hives there's too much cost for my small doings. I did treat with nematodes so maybe that's why the SHB isn't present in my hives for now. As for SHB's starting in FL, chemicals etc, I'm not well versed on those matters. Thanks for your response, George W -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 15:33:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Queen problems In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Waggle wrote: > Jerry Wallace wrote: > > >> Maybe supercedure issue is not all due to chemical usage. >> > > My feelings is that the weakened immune of the honeybee caused by chemical > use and contaminates in comb is also permitting viruses to impact the > health of the colony and queen, causing an increase supercedure rate. > > I have some clips from a few studies: > > In this study, researchers suggest a connection of viruses with queen > supercede. > The issue is with store-bought queens and supercedure. To move it out of that arena adds too many variables. If queen breeders use comaphos in their operations or once used it and have not gone to new comb, then cumaphos is the problem. Cumaphos is an organophosphate, a group of pesticides that are noted for their effect on the reproductive system of just about anything they come in contact with. It does not take a rocket scientist to see that if cumaphos is present and queens come in contact with it they will be effected. I saw some store bought queens with Apistan tabs in the queen cage and wonder if they are also shipped with cumaphos tabs. If so, all that is occurring is an increased probability of a queen with reproductive issues. Apistan is fairly benign, and its class of chemical ( Pyrethroid) is used by organic gardeners. It operates much differently than cumaphos and the queen should be fine. It is interesting that cumaphos is in the same class as Sevin which is deadly to bees, and which we tell neighbors not to use since it kills bees. The immune system is not at issue as to cumaphose or any of the miticides. We know that many viruses are present in a colony but usually are at low levels. Add Varroa or Tracheal mites and then they can increase and the queen will be affected, but not because of the added miticides, since they decrease the mite load, but because of the mite. If the miticides were not present at any time, the mites would still affect the queen and other bees. And can we please get a bit more specific. A term like "chemical use" convicts every beekeeper who has ever added anything to a hive, including wood , nails or the white death, sugar. It also convicts the bees since they also bring chemicals into the hive, like sucrose, fructose, glucose and water. We are addressing miticides and specific miticides at that. Bill Truesdell (how can we be chemical free when we are composed of chemicals?) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 12:15:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Queen problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, > A term like "chemical use" convicts every beekeeper who has ever added anything to a hive, including wood , nails or the white death, sugar. It also convicts the bees since they also bring chemicals into the hive, like sucrose, fructose, glucose and water. > I think most of us here, at least myself, are completely aware of everything being a chemical and of which particular chemicals are the ones being used in a hive. I would also hope we know which ones the honey bees would not normally use in a hive or bring in on their own. >(how can we be chemical free when we are composed of chemicals?) > We can all split hairs such as you are doing but I think we are discussing Chemicals that are deadly and kill and are not necessarily necessary in a hive. This type of tactic is an attempt to side track an issue of some concern. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:14:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: mite fall question for Dee In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy Oliver, I just went thru this on the Organics List for beekeepers there, talking about broodnest turnover period and, with that the switch from short-lived honeybees to long-lived honeybees that happens then, like in the spring when our bees turn from long-lived honeybees to short-lived honeybees. At this time beekeepers look for bees dying off from preceeding season and then firing up in waves with small patch of brood and then with each succeeding wave of brood layed and cycle, more and more. But what most beekeepers don't key into is the fact that there are short-lived mites and long-lived mites that coincide with the honeybees, and the mites dying each session of turnover, hence a spike in their deaths when the broodnest is cleaned and resterilized with propolis. For the broodnest acts like a living liver in a beehive and all pests, predators, and diseases of the bees broodnest is thus filtered and cleaned thru it come turnover time of brood. Other then that the bees go in a holding pattern with the drones protecting the colonies by adsorbing the problems themselves first, to give time to the workers to raise brood the queen lays, and forage for food for the colony. Now with the upswings of brooding and food coming in the bees do more work associated with that. But on the downswings of brooding aka the lulls and food coming in, then the bees periodically chewout and clean and maintain the broodnest somewhat, but the main push for recleaning and resetup normally comes twice a year (spring and fall). Then the mite turnover of for example the short-lived mites like in the late summer HAVE TO GO SOMEWHERE and MUST DIE to turn over. It is a spike for lack of other words and yet few look at it this way, nor consider what is happening. For if the short-lived mites don't die......then where do they go? It's as simple as that, and large mite counts are therefore good to see at least for me and the FIRST regression down cycle in the fall is the hardest to explain to a new beekeeper to go thru for they are told it is bad. But in actuality it is good, for if you don't see the bees cleaning out the mites following an active year of regressing size down as much as you can for the bees to have smaller comb to help against varroa reproduction, then the mites go on. Seeing them thrown out and chewed out is good. Also, helping the bees to adjust back down to 10-15% drone cells is also good for it strengthens the chewing out phase and broodnest cleaning/turnover phase. This way first turnover with SC you get massive chewing out of varroa and I have talked about this much with seeing when we did it back in 1997, whole sheets of purple eye pupae looking at us, like someone had taken a hot knive and uncapped the worker brood. But this is not bad to see, for it means the bees are working for all they can to save larvae and pupae from varroa. Mites being taken out from both cells and off the bodies of bees are then seen in mass and this is nothing to be afraid of. You need and want to see it to know the bees are cleaning. Then by the time the broodnest turnover phase is done, the chewing out and mite drops slow down and is lesser come the following spring, and then progressively gets better the more the whole hive is converted back to a more natural sustainable system. Talked about it here even and it is in the archives I am sure, though you would probably have to add in the short-lived and long-lived mite part for understanding whole picture as back then I just talked about the massive chewing out of varroa and though everyone would understand what I was saying without getting more deep and specific into the turnover thing. But again, think about it. It is logical, it fits the time period and it is what is happening. The bees are throwing out/cleaning out the short-lived now fading away short-lived mites and knowing that colones turn brood at different timings means some start earlier and some later and while chewing off mites during the non-brooding lull, the as the brooding slowly restarts and gains speed, the bees then to keep them from reproduction during the firing up, then chew them out. Prior to that the drones took care of the problem by accepting the badness upon themselves, but during turnover the poor drones are sacrificed like offerings now and thrown out with duties done, until they are allowed to restart back up again to again work for the benefit of the hives with guarding besides mating priveliges. So be happy if on first regression down to SC if you see large mite counts and the bees working to get rid of them by chewing out. Now in saying this...........with LC the problem is unchanged and the problem worsens. For the tergits are better for the phoretic mites to get between and eat blood meal and the blood meal in late summer has a higher JGH level and hence better for reproduction. Then too many LC bees also don't chew out varroa like with SC bees haveing been thrown into a triggering mode to do so. So with mites having a blood meal to maintain high JGH levels and then with brooding restarting back up you get more mites left alive going into the few LC worker cells with each season. This then means that once the worker cells have one mite the first season, then the second you work up to 2 mites going in and 10 fold increases or more are not uncommon especially with treatments failing. so with 2 mites or more going in with brood restarting you get then the 2 original plus offspring then sucking blood of the larvae/pupae. This is bad on LC where there is reproduction vs SC where there is really no reproduction. With 4 or more sucking in a cell of worker pupae on LC you get shortened lives of the honeybees. many don't make it out of the cell alive as numbers progress. But you also have to consider that with 4 or more (basically 2 adults in plus offspring say from 2-3 year into process) you get the lives of the bees shortened by 1/2. This means foraging also cut in half and with main flows stopping and lulling late summer this can be bad for not having force to make broodnest turnovers and can lead to crashes. In winter too the 1/2 life is bad for having early spring crashes too. But also on top of this the bees chewed upon with LC are also sick and deformed and many do not besides even do house duties. Which then means lack of nurse bees, lack of house cleaning bees, besides lack of foragers, and what foragers are left have shortened lives now. Just a bad situation. Again on turnover you need to see large mite falls or spikes to know the bees are doing jobs, especially if field management is changed prior to to give the bees a chance to turn worker bees prior to going into turnover of the broodnest. So with SC we like to see LARGE mite drops this time of year. We like to see good patches of chewing out of varroa. For again the short-lived mites in late summer have to go someplace. To not see this means trouble, for if not spitting out and chewing out........where is the trouble with mites going to go??????? Food for thought..... Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 17:14:02 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob and all, As you have stated, colony strength is key to controlling SHB. The other key factor in controlling SHB is the old fashioned method of pest management which simply explained is, "Don't leave empty, untended combs on your colonies". That means don't over super, and it means if the bees aren't actively patrolling a comb in numbers, than it is not being patrolled. Beetle larvae are easily dispatched by the bees, but only if there are enough bees to cover the whole colony, and that means enough to peek in and check every cell regularly. SHB is one good reason for adopting a foundationless system that prevents the bees from being given too much foundation or comb and not having enough bees to patrol it. They only build what is needed. When you harvest the honey, you cut away the comb and let them rebuild it without foundation. They will attach it to exactly the same spots as used before similarly but more effective than using foundation strips. Does this effect production? Sure, but when you compare side by side the costs of increased wax production vs. lost production, entirely lost harvests and lost colonies from beetles, and include the costs of pesticides (and their effects) if that is your thing (and its NOT my thing at all thank you very much) I think you can see the savings quite readily. Going foundationless seems hard at first, but once you have a mature colony, installing foundationless frames is as easy as inserting one between two well drawn and capped frames. Once the frames have been used, cutting the honey out is all that is needed to start over. They will fill the frame just as they did before because they have a "starter strip" that runs around the whole frame. Plus the system inherently includes wax replacement which is a recommended practice anyway for healthy beekeeping. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---