From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:26:31 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.1 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20B8E49076 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SF1MM2014128 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:50 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0610C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 212777 Lines: 4901 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 00:20:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: mite fall question for Dee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Dee & All, "short lived & long lived varroa mite" Surely an interesting hypothesis but not one Denis Anderson or those doing current varroa mite research seem to be buying into. The hypothesis has come up but those running one sticky board test after another find those varroa simply on the sticky board. However the canabilistic hypothesis of my friends Marla Spivak and Dr. Harbo offer another explanation. The hygienic bees are munching those missing varroa ( and pupa). Its not hard for me to understand the concept of winter & summer bees as we all know the queen can live many years by a special diet. No proof exists (or that I am aware of) which suggests all varroa do not feed on the same food source. I guess my question is : What (in your opinion) creates the long lived varroa and the short lived varroa? Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 21:33:31 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 11 Oct 2006 to 12 Oct 2006 (#2006-268) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee, you said why import pseudoscorpions when they are already here - i.e. in North America. Yes there are numerous species of pseudoscorpions in North America as elswhere, but as far as in known, none in North America cohabit with honey bees in their hives. You also said that you watch for pseudoscorpions when working your hives. Do you see pseudoscorpions in your hives then? The October issue of The New Zealand Beekeeper will carry an article by myself and Wouter Hyink on Wouter's discovery of two species of native New Zealand pseudoscorpions that have taken to living on the top edge of supers just under the hive mat. When placed with varroa they eat the varroa, and just as readily as do Indian pseudoscorpions. However, the N.Z. pseudoscorpions have not yet been seen making nests in beehives. I would much appreciate any information about pseudoscorpions in hives in Nort America. Regardsto all, Barry Donovan, New Zealand. Visit our website at http://www.crop.cri.nz ______________________________________________________ CAUTION: The information contained in this email is privileged and confidential. If you read this message and you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of all or part of the contents is prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. Any opinions or views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not represent those of their employer. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 14:46:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: mite drop Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Dee and Bob, I'm still looking for any published study that has a continuous record of natural mite drop daily or weekly for an entire season without treatment. Can anyone help? Thanks, Randy -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 20:52:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Queen problems In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone wrote: > We can all split hairs such as you are doing but I think we are discussing Chemicals that are deadly and kill and are not > necessarily necessary in a hive. This type of tactic is an attempt to side track an issue of some concern. > Actually, it is an attempt to be more specific. "Chemicals that are deadly and kill " is very non-specific and confusing to me since I know of none that are added to a hive other than gasoline to kill a colony. Are we then speaking of killing mites? A whole group of miticides do that and many are used by "organic" beekeepers and all are chemicals, some of which are more toxic than the commercial, approved miticides. Plus, I mentioned the white death on purpose, since there are some on this list who feel sugar syrup should never be fed to bees and would group it right along with other "deadly" chemicals. Why is it so difficult to identify just which "chemicals" we are talking about. So far, I can see only one commercial miticide, which is cumaphos, that has a major effect on the queen and supercedure . My post is specific in identifying this. The question is queen problems and the answer is not "chemicals" but specific miticides or some other reason. Got to leave now and soak in some hot dihydrogen oxide, another chemical that is deadly and kills. I live on the edge. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 21:16:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping In-Reply-To: <20061013164938.57774.qmail@web31608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Grant Gillard wrote: > > The beauty of keeping bees is that whatever method you choose to raise your bees, it is the condition of your bees that will be the true indicator of your success. Is it possible there is more than one way to raise bees, even as we try to define it as "natural" or "chemical?" > > Just my 2 cents. I'm going back under the radar now. > A nice reasoned post and a philosophy I ascribe to. I appreciate people like Dennis Murrel (you may want to look in the archives) who do their homework and provide good research. In essence he has found the same thing that you have which is more in line with top bar hives than the way most of us keep bees, including the small cell adherents. He found cell size varies as does the size of bees. Don't stay under the radar. You learn more as a target. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:11:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Queen problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, > Actually, it is an attempt to be more specific. > Then you, yourself, should of and could of been more specific to save us = the bush beating and the discussion could of continued informed. To tell = the truth I can really care less about the specifics of these out of the = hive chemicals because I do not intend to use them, but it is = interesting to find out more of the details of them and add more to my = own personal reasons not to use them. I hear more bad about them than I = ever hear good of them. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 06:42:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >joe bossom wrote: >the natural vs. "assisted": beekeeping discussion is interesting even if it changes no one's mind. Can some scholar amongst you tell me what sort of bees are native to North America? Hi Joe & Peter, The definition of natural does not necessitate that something must be “native” in order for it to be natural. This defining the term natural continues,,, Peter Borst also writes: >Natural in the USA would mean: no honeybees… In biology, natural is defined as: “Biology. Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned: natural immunity; a natural reflex.” Nothing mentioned about native. Peter Borst writes: >I am a little tired of people getting up on the soapbox and claiming to be "more natural than thou". I know plenty of beekeepers who would just as soon stop applying chemicals… Please be more specific, as Bill Truesdell mentioned earlier that using the term “chemicals” is far too confusing and vague, and could interpreted to mean nails, wood, glue, coors beer and humans. The attempt here to define who is “more natural” by the degree of “chemical” or level of contaminates does not fit the definition. If beekeeper was claiming to be keeping bees in a more "natural" fashon. This would mean that the beekeeper is practicing beekeeping techniques that allow the honeybees own immune system to develop by the honeybees natural means. A beekeeper using natural beekeeping practices would be using methodry which promotes the healthy development of the honeybee colony and its natural way of living, together with the needs of the beekeeper, that do not serve to prop up bad genetics. Si IMO, natural beekeeping covers much more than the use of pesticides in the colonies. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 13:45:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 11 Oct 2006 to 12 Oct 2006 (#2006-268) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Barry, You also said that you watch for pseudoscorpions when working your hives. Do you see pseudoscorpions in your hives then? Reply: Always have..........just like some types of ants and centipedes, small lizzards, and spiders,they can be found under inner covers and in pollen traps and bottom boards. But, when taking off top covers to expose the inner cover or when taking off cracked back top covers you also look to see when taking off, other things there, as ants and black-widow spiders etc, bite sometimes. But the little scorpions under the covers that can be there, or even under bottom boards when moveing them are not fun either for ichy pricks. Have never really looked that hard for them in hives as we don't pull our hives down in working them. We just do to make sure they are healthy and queen right/brood right and no diseases and go on basically. Why look for problems or other things to take time when the bees act and seem healthy? Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 14:36:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: mite fall question for Dee In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison writes: What (in your opinion) creates the long lived varroa and the short lived varroa? Reply: Really Bob? That's like asking what creates long-lived honeybees and short-lived honeybees in a way. Haven't you heard that you are "What you eat". The varroa eat the blood of our poor honeybees, aka the blood meals that contain the JGH trigger for more mite reproduction the bigger the honeybee is. Honeybees have lowest JGH trigger in early spring and largest JGH trigger in late summer that is a progressively increased factor throughout the active main foraging year just to add in again here. But this long lived factor, with mites living time/age, relative to honeybees has been around for reading a long, long time. Back into the 1970s even and various authors have written on it. So it is easy for you to look up, whether it scientific publications or even the American Bee Journal. Start around 1978. But you say: "What (in your opinion) creates the long lived varroa and the short lived varroa?" Well, for opinion then.....IMPOV... the varroa feed on the blood of the honeybees and the honeybees are long-lived and short-lived depending upon the time of the year. We also know that bees like other animals are what they eat so to speak, and IMPOV here to I would like to add that in saying this, by being what you eat it also influences the DNA makeup, but that is another thing, but getting back,..... Bees basically forage differently thoughout the beekeeping year, and coincidently, just went thru this explaining with help of Joe Waggle over on the OrganicBeekeepers discussion list, as he posted some good links there. In early spring and beginning late summer, going into fall bees forage on the smaller medicinals and herbals and wild flowers, while with many main flows bees go for trees and other bigger blooming plants. This is interesting in a way, for broodnest turnover is early spring and late summer, and this type foraging then for plants, coincides with the bees needs for medicinal and herbals for better/stronger makeup of propolis for broodnest cleansing out and re-sterilization for the health of the colony while raising brood. Then during the other time of the year, for the main flow they go for non-herbals aka trees, other bigger blooming plants. But in doing so the bees are long-lived it seems when in association with the smaller herbals, etc, and short-lived when in association with the bigger blooms and main flows. This then passes thru the food chain thru the bees to the mites and possibly others in hives with co-existant relationships with our honeybees on the types of food stores, being here sourced from either long-lived or short-lived stimulating plants that gave either honey or pollen or propolis for storage within the colonies. So question back to you and others here then: Does this mean that the propolis taken/used early spring and late summer/fall is better for humans and other animals for promoting longer life? And the propolis taken other times of the year is a different quality that is relative to short-life bees? If so, then what is the missing element of the one that we then need to identify for us to live longer, healthier lives, Bob.......or simply just take the early spring and late propolis and enjoy!!! ....for lack of other words. But also like many say the darker honeys are better for minerals/vitamins too, as would be the pollens. So for personal usage sell the lighter and keep the darker. But for what makes/creates again the long-lived and short-lived varroa? Diet of blood meal,dependent upon time of year, that coming from the bees parallels their lives, that seems to be made from what the bees eat also, which breaks down to different plants at different times of year, and coincides with broodnest cleansing time. Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 20:21:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping In-Reply-To: <4532DD70.4000801@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: "Don't stay under the radar. You learn more as a target." What I've really learned is that it's easier for some people to be a critic rather than a composer. But you are right. And the times I've learned the most is when I was given the task of teaching someone else. Staying under the radar is simply the path of least persistance. Peace and Prosperity, Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 20:38:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Earthquake hits Hawaiian Islands MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all: Just had to post this and ask question since earthquakes and volcanoes have been going off in Southeast Asia, and one in Alaska is smoking. With El Nino coming in and underground heating working our way again........ If a similar wave of earthquakes was felt on West Coast of USA like in the islands of Hawaii, would it effect us in Agriculture depending upon time of year? http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/earthquake-hits-hawaii-knocking-out/20061015134109990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 08:32:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > The definition of natural does not necessitate that something must be 'native' in order for it to be natural. In biology, natural is defined as: Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned: natural immunity; a natural reflex. Nothing mentioned about native. * OK. Then why, when a non-native species is introduced into a new area, it is then referred to as "naturalized"? The term "nature" is used so much and in so many different ways, that it is essentially meaningless (or at least, it has multiple meanings). One person says: Nature is that which is not human-created. Another says that *everything* is Nature. We could debate this forever. But to say that bees are suffering from varroa because of the use of chemicals is absurd. The varroa came first, not the chemicals. I have watched hundreds of untreated hives perish. This is not some isolated phenomenon. When an introduced pest finds a niche, it's do or die. I would avoid any method or theory that claims to work always and everywhere. The situation is just more complicated than that. Each person must work out his or her own technique. And after being a close student of nature for 50 years, I afraid I know less about what THAT means than ever. pb A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803–1882) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:35:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: short-lived mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dee I read the article Hanel, H., and N. Koeniger 1986. Possible regulation of the reproduction of the honey bee mite Varroa jacobsoni by a host's hormone: juvenile hormone III. J. Insect Physiol. 32:791-98 However, Marla Spivak in Mites and the Honeybee, p.208 says this hypothesis has been disproved. >>>>> So it is easy for you to look up, whether it scientific publications or even the American Bee Journal I searched the Net in vain for any reference to long- or short-lived mites. Could you please cite a specific source? Thanks, Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:39:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: earthquakes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee lusby wrote: If a similar wave of earthquakes was felt on West Coast of USA like in the islands of Hawaii, would it effect us in Agriculture depending upon time of year? What a great idea, Dee! If the almond growers could time their harvest to coincide with major earthquakes, think of all the money they could save by not having to shake the nuts off the trees! Randy Oliver :) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 09:05:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter: Try acclimitized instead of naturalized for bees to fit into a local area. As for your saying: "But to say that bees are suffering from varroa because of the use of chemicals is absurd. The varroa came first, not the chemicals." Funny how this occurred with Apis mellifera in Southeast Asia in the 1960s transfered over onto upsized honeybees, that were then moved back to EU area in transport. It is true like you say chemicals followed to try to shortgap solve the problem. But putting the bees back down to sizings used prior to upsizing, now that is the big holdup from a failed experiment. Most in problem solving go back to point problem started and then redo wrong path taken. With beekeeping, we just seem to want short-term fixes until another can be found. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 17:23:54 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Queen problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Natural foods don't contain all the nutrients in > sufficient quantities we need to maintain wellness. Meat is the source of carnosine. Meat is natural, hence the statement makes no sense. Bill, you missed my point. I said nutrients do not appear in SUFFICIENT amounts in natural foods (plant, meat etc.). I did not say 'don't appear at all.' Carnosine does appear in meats - I said 'Good luck finding carnesine in plants !,' didn't ? - but, just like other nutrients, the amounts are NOT SUFFICIENT to have the health effects people seek. Hence, the need for supplementation. I hope have made this point clear. >>I will not answer any further posts unless beekeeping related. Me, too but you are welcome to have the last say. :)) >>I spoke of this a few years ago, that all spokespersons for natural cancer cures have had cancer and survived, so it obviously works... This is obviosly not statistically significant. A few cases of survivors can be had with just a placebo. I was talking about studies that found survival rates significantly higher than with orthodox approaches or placebos. >>The whole industry is anecdotal since it was moved away from the FDA by the natural food industry. You have to ask yourself why the FDA allowed itself to irresponsible of natural remedies. Don't the F and D stand for Food and Drug? :) Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 14:12:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Digitization of EF Phillips Beekeeping Book collection Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do you subscribe to the American Bee Journal? "The oldest English language beekeeping publication in the world established in 1861 by Samuel Wagner which has been published continuously since that time except for a brief period during the Civil War" http://www.dadant.com/journal/history.html With your help the first 20 Volumes 1861-1880 of ABJ can become the next volumes available for any beekeeper with a computer & network connection by dialing in to the EF Phillips Beekeeping on- line collection at: "The Hive & The Honeybee" maintained by Cornell University. http://bees.library.cornell.edu/ Recent gifts from beekeeping associations from across the US are adding up as we close in on our monetary goals needed for this digitization mile mark! We only need additional contributions of $2,050 to get all 20 volumes (1861 through 1880) of original American Bee Journal digitized. This digitized beekeeping library is the largest digital on-line collection of beekeeping materials thanks to the foresight of EF Phillips, the generous contributions by beekeepers like you and Mann library! And it is available to all! Imagine having access to 30 early America beekeeping volumes from your home computer? And soon you will be able to read the first 20 volumes of ABJ. Perhaps you, your Association or Sate beekeeping organization would like to help by contributing a small donation. By doing the entire 20 volumes at once the estimated cost for digitizing all 20 would be $150/volume. The cost goes up if we choose to do it in smaller, multiple groupings. A few of the local associations have chosen to provide a gift to the digitization project in remembrance of passed association beekeepers. If you or your association would like to help with this or need more information to take to other beekeepers, either contact me or look at "The Hive & The Honeybee" site at; http://bees.library.cornell.edu/ Mike Griggs President Finger Lakes Beekeepers mhg3@cornell.edu -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 15:05:19 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Queen problems In-Reply-To: <20061016.102425.25474.1037157@webmail52.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>I spoke of this a few years ago, that all spokespersons for natural cancer cures have had cancer and survived, so it obviously works... >This is obviosly not statistically significant. A few cases of >survivors can be had with just a placebo. It is also not truly significant either because the survivors of ANY treatment (including plecebo) are able to stand up and say, "My treatment worked". However, what WOULD be significant is if significantly more people survived because of one treatment over another. Then you have something to speak about. Which is why I can advocate small cell the way I do. More and more people are going small cell, or foundationless, and chem free, learning to follow the bees' lead, breeding themselves, and lo and behold although there are failures which Dee and Joe and I have explained why many times that converting has a failure rate due to having bees that are entirely dependent on modern beekeeping management treadmills, there are more and more people successfully keeping larger numbers of beehives productively and 100% chemical free. The list of things that I put into a bee hive is: Bees Feed (if a new package installation, and new package installation only) That's right, the hive is EMPTY, no foundation.... I make hives out of pine or oak (converting to oak as I can afford to), exterior wood glue and stainless steel screws. I do paint the hives with barn and fence paint. Been keeping bees this way in Top Bar Hives since 1999, before then I kept them in langs (1985-1995, and was in USNavy inbetween), but wasn't then a "knowledgeable" beekeeper and didn't put chems in my hives, because I didn't know any better...And hey I am glad I didn't know any better. I wasn't loosing bees then, and I am not loosing bees now, except as a normal part of operating letting weak ones go and working with the strong. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 18:24:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote: >* OK. Then why, when a non-native species is introduced into a new area, > it is then referred to as "naturalized"? Hello Peter, If used in it’s ‘proper definition‘, when a foreign or cultivated species spreads into the wild, where they multiply by natural regeneration, they become “naturalized” >The term "nature" is used so much and in so many different ways, that it >is essentially meaningless (or at least, it has multiple meanings). It has only one meaning when the term is defined correctly and used in it‘s proper context. “Naturalization, in biology, the process when foreign or cultivated plants have spread into the wild, where they multiply by natural regeneration.” >But to say that bees are suffering from varroa because of the use of >chemicals is absurd. The varroa came first, not the chemicals. If you look at research by the University of California, by Marla Spivak and co. IT has shown that the chemicals fluvalinate and coumaphos had negative affects on queen viability and health. Queens treated with high doses of fluvalinate weighed significantly less than low-dose or control queens. The queens exposed to coumaphos weighed significantly less and had lower ovary weights than the control group queens. A queen suffering from low viability and lessened health cannot be capable of performing at her full potential. And I would expect a colony with such an inferior queen to have MAJOR problems dealing with disease and parasites. Best Wishes Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 15:02:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: short-lived mites In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy Oliver: However, Marla Spivak in Mites and the Honeybee, p.208 says this hypothesis has been disproved. Reply: I have read this too, in the past, but since references used were, for example here's one: Effectiveness of Asuntol (coumaphos), Perizin (Coumaphos), Mitac (amitraz) and ppowder of sulphur with naphthalene for the control of bee mites (Varroa Jacobsoni and Tropilaelaps clareae) in Thailand,...... and other reference used: Mites, pests and beekeeping with Apis cerana and Apis mellifera in Thailand,....... and knowing how coumaphos effects/affects honey bee reproduction and would then effect/affect mite reproduction, besides probably side by tests in Thailand done with hives in same yards, I really don't by into the statement that the JGH III has been actually ruled out..................Just my POV due to reference given!! As for authors where to find more info on long-lived and short-lived mites well try: Dr Larry Connor Bernard Mobus Hennry Hermann And Alfred Dietz of course there are more! Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:16:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Swarms in inground water meter boxes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thought about an interesting phenomenon I came across this summer, and one that I have heard about occuring elsewhere. The water meters in the communities around here are located in a box under the ground; i.e. inline with the underground water lines. On several occasions this summer I have heard about and come across incidents where honey bees have attempted to establish colonies in these meters. As far as is known, my area (southwest Alabama) is still devoid of Africanized bees. This question is probably better directed towards our elderly statesmen in the beekeeping community. Have you heard of honey bees trying to establish colonies in underground cavities years ago? As far as is known, is this event something of a recent occurance? If this was a pretty rare event years ago, would this proclivity to colonize in underground cavities be an indication of the presence of possible African genes in our current local stock due to the purchase of open mated queens from those areas that have been infestated with Africanized bees? Something to ponder, Mike in LA (Lower Alabama) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:50:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Swarms in inground water meter boxes In-Reply-To: <20061016231649.32380.qmail@web53410.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mike >Have you heard of honey bees trying to establish colonies in underground cavities years ago? As far as is known, is this event something of a recent occurance? > It depends on the available sites. Bees in the Mojave Desert will make nests in ground cavities. Of course, they don't have much choice. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 20:55:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > But putting the bees back down to sizings used prior to upsizing, now that is the big holdup from a failed experiment. The whole notion that the size of bees was changed at some point by human tinkering is YOUR pet theory. You should treat it as such until there is some credible verification. I have pet theories, too, but I don't truck them out and proclaim them as final solutions to everybody's problems everywhere. Dave de Jong described the essential difference between northern and southern beekeeping: the much longer days we experience in the spring and summer. This causes a much more rapid expansion of bee population in the spring followed by a severe cutback in late summer. This steep rise and fall in bee population produces an echo in the varroa population such that they peak as the bees are starting to cut back, causing the colony to "crash". This simply doesn't happen in southern states because the population has a much more gradual rise and fall and the varroa don't overwhelm them. So what you experience in the south may simply not translate to northern beekeeping. I had to forget most of what I learned in California and replace that with the real experience of trying keep bees alive in the north. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 21:46:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Queen problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: >The issue is with store-bought queens and supercedure. To move it out >of that arena adds too many variables. Hello Bill, There may be several variables at play so we must add them. That they are “store-bought” queens in NO WAY eliminates or limit’s the variables that may be causing the supercedure. >if cumaphos is >present and queens come in contact with it they will be effected. >...If the miticides were not present at any time, the mites would still >affect the queen and other bees. In my experience, this is not true! I’m having NO problems with mites affecting my queens performance, and I never use any treatments for disease and pests. >The immune system is not at issue as to cumaphose or any of the miticides. Sure it is!!!! Fluvalinate (the active ingredient found in Apistan) belongs to a class of pesticides called synthetic pyrethroids. Pyrethroids are sodium channel modulators that have a mode of action affecting the nerve, immune system and the ATPase (an enzyme that allows basic cell processes to take place including the nerve and immune system). Research also backs this up. A study by Dr. Grosman showed that pyrethroids can impact the nerve and immune system on the most basic level. This study shows that pyrethroids alone and in synergistic interactions inhibit the enzyme ATPase (enzumes found in all insects and mammals) which allows basic cell processes to take place including the nerve and immune system. Best Wishes Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:21:41 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, The upsizing of bees is documented all over the magazines and literature of the period.... And lets just say it is a pet...why is it that when bees are allowed to build their own comb, it's smaller than conventional foundation cell sizes, and why is it that if you shake them down again out of comb back to foundationless building their own comb it gets smaller still until you get an average that falls between 4.8 and 4.9mm with core brood comb closer to 4.6 and larger brood comb no larger than 5.1mm? The above is READILY reproduceable by anyone...And it only take one try to see the step in downsizing, and only waiting say 8 weeks and doing it again on the same bees to see the downsizing yet again...on a foundationless system...no foundation is needed to see it for yourself that bees naturally tend toward smaller size than what we put in our hives as an industry.... With all due respect, you need to do some research before you call something a pet.... Oh...Dee lives in southern Arizona...that's pretty south....I lived in Southwest Florida, that's even further south...I had no winters to speak of...2 or 3 weeks at most of freezing weather, bees working all year round. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:51:01 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Re: Pseudoscorpions in hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee, because pseudoscorpions eat varroa, perhaps the pseudoscorpions you have always seen in your hives are contributing towards controlling your varroa? Research on pseudoscorpions in hives is needed to determine whether they could be managed for control of varroa, and also some other arthropod enemies of bees. Regards, Barry Donovan New Zealand. Visit our website at http://www.crop.cri.nz ______________________________________________________ CAUTION: The information contained in this email is privileged and confidential. If you read this message and you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of all or part of the contents is prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. Any opinions or views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not represent those of their employer. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 19:12:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: short-lived mites In-Reply-To: <20061016220205.70363.qmail@web51611.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy and whole list here: I have read this too, in the past, but since references used were, for example here's one: Effectiveness of Asuntol (coumaphos), Perizin (Coumaphos), Mitac (amitraz) and ppowder of sulphur with naphthalene for the control of bee mites (Varroa Jacobsoni and Tropilaelaps clareae) in Thailand,...... and other reference used: Mites, pests and beekeeping with Apis cerana and Apis mellifera in Thailand,....... and knowing how coumaphos effects/affects honey bee reproduction and would then effect/affect mite reproduction, besides probably side by tests in Thailand done with hives in same yards, I really don't by into the statement that the JGH III has been actually ruled out..................Just my POV due to reference given!! These two references by me are wrongly cited from my notes and I appolige for that and hope it does not wrongly hurt anyone. But I had them in my notes too since coumaphos is used in breeding and has given problems in rearing brood, besides queens. While I still believe that the JGH not working is wrong in thought, and the research showing this was done by Rosendranz and others in the early 1990s, since nothing has been shown in it's place, I have stayed with the JGH point of view, as the JGH was applied to worker larvae in the studies, which in a way is man applied and not bees applying, and there is a difference in my mind here, knowing applied means harveted and not bee directly used and this could be a factor from timing used by bees and storage by man. As for the authors then listed on long-life and short-life they are okay by relooking at my notes. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:15:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Queen problems In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell >The issue is with store-bought queens and supercedure. To move it out of that arena adds too many variables. Reply: Then basically you learn to either raise your own, or ketch feral bees.........but I'd like to ask a few simple questions then: Since all queens sold are technically "store-bought queens" how do you classify them pro and con to sort the good from the bad? Just what does one look for? What are you actually looking for in a store-bought queen? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:40:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst writes: I am sorry you are having a hard time from the way you are writing here now Peter, but fortunately many archives written on the subject matter of enlarging honeybees survive, from Bee World, to Gleanings in Bee Culture, and the American Bee Journal, to name a few. Some are posted at beesource.com from history under POV Lusby should you want to go and read, though I would think you have access to them already at colleges near you. As for your saying: "This simply doesn't happen in southern states because the population has a much more gradual rise and fall and the varroa don't overwhelm them.",..... unfortunately this too is not true, for it is written that for example "In countries without a true winter period, and wehre pollination of early-flowering fruit stimulates early brood rearing, varroa regenerates relentlessly." or "The build-up of mite population can be slow in difficult climates...or those with long winters and late spring, but it is very rapid in those parts where bees thrive best throughout the year." Now these statements above here quoted from print, I typed from The Varroa Handbook, and sound similar maybe to early Almond pollenation, or S. Calif/Yuma, or Texas, or Gulf Port States, or Florida that have varroa problems. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:55:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Swarms in inground water meter boxes In-Reply-To: <20061016231649.32380.qmail@web53410.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike: Have you heard of honey bees trying to establish colonies in underground cavities years ago? As far as is known, is this event something of a recent occurance? Reply: My husband Ed's grandpa that moved the family here in the 1920s from Oklahoma, besides being a beekeeper, was a well driller for many ranches around here in Southern Arizona. One way he got bees was from wells drilled down that went into cavaties and Ed was raised helping the local water company get bees out of water meter boxes here in Tucson, of which I helped with until recent years, when it became a no-no, due to so-called AHBs arriving. Since then the bees have been poisoned and destroyed for the most part and a big loss for source to local industry. So don't see it as anything new. Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 07:25:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > The upsizing of bees is documented all over the magazines and >literature of the period.... I have read the so-called supporting literature and I failed to see any proof that bees were permanently altered in any way. You can get slightly bigger bees using larger celled foundation, but the effect is superficial and not lasting. People have measured the cells from bees in frameless hives around the world and have established the natural cell sizes. These numbers simply don't support the whole "upsizing" theory. Be that as it may, there is no reason to suppose that these slightly larger bees are in any way disadvantaged. More likely, bees are larger in northern climates because it provides some advantage in over-wintering ability. If there is a gradient from smaller to larger correlated with warmer to colder climates, then it no doubt arose through natural selection, because these bees were more well suited to their environment. I have never said that human being have not done deleterious things to the honey bee species; they have. Keeping of hives in large apiaries, moving them to other continents, medicating, breeding for criteria like pretty color, all these have taken a toll on the health of the species. And these practices aren't going away. We need to counter-balance them with intelligent practices. IPM, for one. This is a technique where controls are based on an assessment of need, and non-chemical methods are tried first, hard chemicals last. The breeding of resistant bees is another area which needs to be supported. Putting health issues before all others seems to be the key. I simply think it is an error to allow theories to become so large that they overshadow the reality of the situation. Beekeepers in the north have problems that southern beekeepers simply don't have. And for people to boast about their successes and belittle the efforts of others is wrong, unless they've walked a mile in their shoes. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:52:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But Scot, Isn't that what Peter was saying you and Dee are in the South, whilst he is further North Ruary > > Oh...Dee lives in southern Arizona...that's pretty south....I lived in > Southwest Florida, that's even further south...I had no winters to speak > of...2 or 3 weeks at most of freezing weather, bees working all year > round. > > -- > Scot McPherson -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 20:07:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Brian_Fredericksen?= Subject: Re: mite fall question for Dee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is getting really wierd on this board lately, this thread along with what was originally the queen problems thread seems like something from the "Twilight Zone" with Cheech & Chong as this weeks guest experts. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 09:23:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ted_Hancock?= Subject: Re: Do comments on Bee-L reflect consensus views of the beekeeping industry? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 07:54:58 -0700, K&W Jarrett wrote: >Some keepers get on here and spread mis information, not knowing that it is >merly speculation. One comes to mind, the drought.... Anyone who passes on information about short honey crops, correct or otherwise, is ok by me, since it can only help push the price up. I have been hearing about droughts all over the place, plus an alien touched down in New Mexico and bought up a beekeeper's entire crop. Said it needed honey to power it's space ship. The beekeeper told me that the engine manual fell out as the alien blasted off. He is trying to get the manual translated before the oil companies steal it. Do any of you know how to read apis-speranto? The New Mexican said he charged the alien six dollars per pound for his honey in the barrel. The alien told him that it had first tried to buy product from a Canadian beekeeper but the Canadian said it would take a few days to obtained the proper export certificates. Apparently aliens are impatient beings cause it didn't wait. So no beating around the bush following your tracks in the snow if one stops in at your place, eh? Ted Thinking: Bee-l'rs may be from more than one planet. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 09:26:13 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I simply think it is an error to allow theories to become so large that they overshadow the reality of the situation. >Beekeepers in the north have problems that southern beekeepers simply don't have. And for people to boast about their >successes and belittle the efforts of others is wrong, unless they've walked a mile in their shoes. Interesting, I have experience in both the north and the south. Prior to Joining the Navy, I kept bees in New England (CT and NJ), after the Navy I kept bees in Southwest Florida. Now I keep Bees in the Midwest (Iowa). I have never put any chemicals in the colonies in any of my beekeeping experiences. You need to try the experiments yourself. You are right, the enlargement is a temporary thing...So long as you remove the enlarged combs...However, if you leave in the enlarged combs, I am afraid the bees size will remain as permanent as the combs you are using. Also if you reread my previous post, I did explain that one measurement from a single shakedown onto foundationless will show only so much reduction. Do it again with the same bees and you get more reduction. Do it a 3rd and 4th time and you have bees which average between 4.8 and 4.9mm... Sorry this isn't thoery, this is fact. Yes in alaska you'lol have naturally larger bees, yes in the tropics you will have naturally smaller bees. 4.9mm is a middle of the road measurement, with it topping off at 5.1mm and the smallest being 4.6mm. I am afraid that the facts are that this is smaller than the standard foundations available which range between 5.2mm and 5.4mm, and in somecased are extreme to 5.6-5.9 mm. Now if you take small cell comb, and fully regress the bees, then let them go to natural comb/foundationless, you do not get an "natural enlargement" they remain small cell EXCEPT in the far far north like Alaska. I am not belittling anyone, and as you said, you cannot judge until you walk in someone elses shoes. Have you worn organic beekeeping shoes, have you taken any steps in these shoes? -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 07:58:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Swarms in inground water meter boxes In-Reply-To: <20061016231649.32380.qmail@web53410.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I had a swarm call like this situation this past summer. Honey bees built a nest on the bottom side of a "man-hole" cover that was at ground level, then hung their comb about 12 inches on the bottom side of the cover. The rest of the sewer pipe descended six or eight feet to a large drain sewer. The maintenance men put their special tool in the hole and pulled the cover back, scraping a lot of the extended comb from the cover. That's when they called me. The hole in the man-hole cover was about as big as a silver dollar and at ground level. I vaccuumed the bees into a bucket, scraped the comb to be salvaged, then knocked the bees into a nuc box. As far as I know, these were not africanized bees nor displayed any unusual aggression. It was in late June and looked like a recent swarm. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 08:05:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: Do comments on Bee-L reflect consensus views of the beekeeping industry? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted wrote, > Anyone who passes on information about short honey crops, correct or > otherwise, is ok by me, since it can only help push the price up. Ted,with all due respect, these rumors are not ok. Many mis informed beekeepers run their business on such information. Just take a look at the last three years of the almond pollination mess . Supply was all over the board, the demand (almonds)is a solidified factor. The only volatility is the beekeeper and which way he or she is going to jump.Good sound info will help bring stability to the market place. Many beekeepers got hurt last year by this,which is why I'm cautioning some on BEE-L. Thanks again, Keith Jarrett Calif. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 08:53:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Pseudoscorpions in hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Barry and all here: While I think right now lookinat at pseudoscorpions in hives could be cute. Just how many would be needed seeing how they would have to eat the mites to control them? In badly infested hives would a beekeeper really want that many and then when eaten, what do they do with them as they like other animals would want more food and then turn to what?.....baby larvae to feed? Have you ever really held a few in your hand or had them crawl up your leg? To be going this route seems really grooping in a way .... Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 08:25:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping Comments: To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, S.M. wrote; > Now if you take small cell comb, and fully regress the bees, then let them go to natural comb/foundationless, you do not get an "natural enlargement" they remain small cell EXCEPT in the far far north like Alaska. > Scot you are correct, Packages of ("Small Cell Bees") from southern = locations when put on a foundationless system in my location = (South-Central Alaska), draw worker brood comb out in the area of 5.1mm = to 5.2mm. That in itself is much smaller than 5.4mm to 5.6mm that some = beekeepers use if using wax foundation. Plastic foundations being in the = range of 5.2mm really is not to far off and does give a beekeeper who = has some drawn out a tool to use in regressing. This you may have to = take as anecdotal presently because of the short active season up here = there is not much time where bees are drawing worker cells, I will = continue adding foundationless or starter strips to brood nests and = measuring comb to see where bees up here settle. Still it is no doubt to = me that bees do want a smaller cell than is normal in the industry be it = plastic or wax foundation.=20 . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:42:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > I have read the so-called supporting literature and I failed to see any > proof that bees were permanently altered in any way. You can get slightly > bigger bees using larger celled foundation, but the effect is superficial > and not lasting. People have measured the cells from bees in frameless hives > around the world and have established the natural cell sizes. These numbers > simply don't support the whole "upsizing" theory. > Dennis Murrell ran some exceptional trial of bees on small cells and found that bee size was not uniform but varied by season. Also, cell size varied. So big bees exist in a small cell colony. Truth is, in this discussion, we are continually going over the same paths. No big deal since there are always new people coming on the list, but for those that are new here, be careful. I would talk to local, successful beekeepers and listen to them before following some of what I read here. Dennis ended up with Top bar hives and let the bees build their own comb and seemed successful in controlling Varroa.. Generally, the center of the frame was small cell, some cells much smaller that 4.9, but as you moved either way, the size grew to beyond 4.9. So, it seems that natural cell size is really an average and is not uniform. The size may also be latitude dependent, or winter temperature dependent. So, if his trials reflect reality, any uniform comb, no matter what the size, is not natural., Maybe what is natural is what Dennis and others do with top bar hives, let the bees make their own (something I am going to trial next year). As you cull comb over several years, they will stabilize at the point which is "natural" for the local conditions. The problem with this is that the approach may be just fine in one location but may not work in others to control Varroa. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 00:06:29 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Bee brain researcher wins science prize MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A good win for an Aussie researcher. Those who attended the Asian Apicultural Conference in Perth, Australia earlier this year would have heard Professor Srinivsan as he was one of the keynote speakers. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Bee brain researcher wins science prize By Jane Bunce October 16, 2006 09:13pm A BEE researcher who used the insect's precision flying systems to overhaul robotic aircraft navigation has won the $300,000 Prime Minister's Prize for Science. Australian National University Professor Mandyam Veerambudi Srinivasan is working with the US Army and NASA to design tiny craft based on his research of bees' brains that could be used to explore Mars and reduce danger for soldiers on the battlefield. Prof Srinivasan said bees were expert navigators despite their small size and brains the size of a sesame seed, and could be trained to navigate through mazes, follow coloured signs and distinguish between patterns to find food. "What is amazing is these tiny creatures can learn something like that," said Prof Srinivasan, who trained as an engineer in India but began studying flies and later bees "purely out of interest and curiosity". "Nature has evolved these systems through a million years of evolution." He said humans judged distances by comparing the images from their two eyes, but insects could not use the same stereo vision system because their eyes were too close together. Instead they observed how rapidly objects appeared to move on the retinas in their eyes ? if they moved quickly, the object was close; slowly, and it was far away. "That seems to be the trick that's useful for robot navigation because it's very simple to put it into the computer, it's a lot simpler than stereo navigation," Prof Srinivasan said. "That's what allows us to put it into miniature vehicles to help with navigation." Prof Srinivasan said the navigation system could be used to control small vehicles carried by a larger spaceship and used to explore other planets such as Mars. "The idea is to have a lot of miniature cheap disposable exploring aircraft instead of one big machine, where if something goes wrong with it the whole expedition is jeopardised," he said. "It's also good for searching a much larger area of the terrain." The military was interested in the possibility of small disposable aircraft that could be sent ahead of soldiers to look for danger. Prof Srinivasan's team has already put bee-like navigation systems into model aircraft and is testing their ability to fly through narrow gaps, land and avoid collisions. It also has begun investigating how angry bees chased moving targets to learn how their guidance systems functioned, work that could eventually have an application for unmanned combat planes. Prof Srinivasan said the Prime Minister's Prize was totally unexpected as his research was "a bit of a niche". "That's what I value so much about this prize ... people are realising basic research can produce unexpected dividends," he said. In a speech at the award ceremony in Parliament House tonight, Prime Minister John Howard said Prof Srinivasan had revealed the working of the insect mind and helped redefine robotics ? traditionally expensive and complex ? in the process. "What started 23 years ago as basic research with no apparent application, is now followed closely by robotics experts around the world," he said. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:57:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Do comments on Bee-L reflect consensus views MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline There seems to be two point of views emerging from those few who have commented: 1. There is no harm, and perhaps some good, in everyones' comments 2. Some commentary has actually been detremential to beekeepers I have not seen any comments that have said 'pay attention, because what is said on Bee-L is THE WORD'. I am grateful to the latter and I hope that all have paid attention as some of the supposed-expert testimony on this forum is far from that. (And perhaps some would say that about some of my commentary.) Beware of those who speak with great certainty. As my Dad used to say, if they know so much why aren't they rich? Or...why are they beekeepers? -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:52:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Pseudoscorpions in hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Barry, We have always had pseudoscorpions and this includes prior to mites arriving. You know it is strange in a way. First to control mites we started first regression down in size and got thru trachael mites, then along came varroa. During this time dadant 900 come on the market and much was said about this approach then Next came so-called AHBs and it was said it wasn't the comb, nor management style it was the so-called AHBs. Now of course it is being broadened with pseudoscorpions, for a SC/wholebee way of maintaining is what? I have never seen the pseudoscorpions except around the top covers/inner covers and bottom boards, like I see the various ants in both places. So while we are at it let's say ants are helping too! and probably more for I see more ants then pseudoscorpions. I also see more small lizzards on the bottom boards and they are eating something, so let's then include them. And let's not forget spiders in and out both big and small. So what does this mean then? Well, written in Pests, Predators and Diseases you have many mutual relationships in and around and within a beehive. You learn to work with this and hence no treatments of any kind, no artificial feeding of any kind, and placement of bees on to combs within the natural spectrum of sizing, of which 4.9mm is in the center. We use SC 4.9mm top tolerance foundation that we handmake without the cells walls by the way, so our bees can since they are sized down already so many years go slightly bigger or slightly smaller individually by hive. And yes we work with acclimitized bees, that were worked back up from bottoming out at 104 from roughly 1,000 in shaking down, changing out only the combs for new foundation to restart over (twice we did that also by the way). In restarting both times, no outside bees were brought in. We retooled from own stock and added all the ferals we could ketch and still do as we have build our numbers back up. Are Pseudoscorpions eating a mite or two? Maybe if there. Are the ants? Maybe if there? Are the lizzards and spiders and small snakes eating a mite or two? Maybe if there. Do I care for the few they get? No. Do the bees eat mites? Well since it has been brought up before by Bob I think even....Maybe in cleaning out pupae in extreme cases and then the immature ones probably...........Do they eat the adult mites? ..... No I don't think so, for when you put a queen includer/excluder on the bottom of a hive and keep the drones in, the bees chew the drones to keep from clogging the wire grid, but only so much for they dont eat the hardened thorax for example, nor other beetles (large black or dark red just plain beetles) for they don't eat the hardened shells.....So I cannot see the adult bees eating the adult varroa mites, while I can see them biting them and hurting legs, and breaking shell then dropping them to the bottom debree for other in house co-relationship existing to gather and take care of aka the ants, snakes, spiders, roaches, normal beetles, regular scorions, pseudoscorpions, etc, etc. Now where does this end? It ends IMPOV with bees on normal sized combs for their area, that are acclimitized or naturalized to their local area/region, and maintained with real food they make and not artificial feeds, and not doped or medicated in any way be it even IPM. Then you follow the bees needs and not your own. You only take the surplus and not their personal needs and you don't upset the balance they work within by recognizing that all creatures seen in hives with them if not being attacked by them or fought belong there. Now if you wish to then say control mites with the pseudoscopions, then how many hundred do you need in a commercial production hive? or do you only keep mini-nucs with them for pollenation and hope to make profit, and same with making honey? If you can do it fine.......as for me, it's another one of those......if you ketch my drift! Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:49:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Bio fuels In-Reply-To: <005401c6f1fd$b922e6d0$fb5df604@wendyf10934cd0> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Relating to Bio diesel, Ethanol derived from Biomass and other agricultural materials. There is much debate about its rentabilty, supply mechanisms, production etc. within Canada (and other countries). Supply of raw materials to support such a future endeavour varies according to national crop types (Canada using Canola, US: Maize, UK: Rapeseed). Projects are being investigated. Where are the Beekeepers in the debate? Agricultural lobbies have policy statements, as I am sure so have other interested groups Where are the Beekeepers in the debate? As ever, crops need good soil, fertilizer, protection - all considered as normal practice for the farmer. Nowhere have I seen mentioned the need to ensure pollination. Granted that in the case of Canola, it is to a point self pollinating. But as always stated - pollination at an adequate level enhances better pod development, seed numbers and overall increase in oil quality. Presumably those investigating the potential for Bio diesel will be searching for a top quality end product with highest return for input. At the present the Manitoban Provincial Gov't is advocating diversification and support for "Green" production - especially if it helps support the rural production base. Not only do I see a potential for added income from pollination contracts if handled / developed in the correct manner - BUT: There is the potential for the honey market to be disrupted in the future as larger surface areas of nectar producing come into being. - Too much honey?? The addition of pollination within the Bio fuel sector may limit this potential development. Your thoughts. Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:33:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bee brain researcher wins science prize In-Reply-To: <000201c6f231$e73c0ef0$668d453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "What is amazing is these tiny creatures can learn something like that,"said Prof Srinivasan Reply: This is most gratifying to read and sure liked what I read. Bees learning besides basic fundamentals in research. Then application for others to use thru new path that seems less costly and just common sense but so expertly done. Intelligence shown in bees by basically teaching them something to do for help of man in navigation. Thank you so much for posting and making my day! I love reading about intelligent honeybees. Regards, Dee- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:18:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Do comments on Bee-L reflect consensus views In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We could have a consensus of views amongst ourselves here on Bee-L. But, I don't think that that consensus would be representative of anything other than a small portion of the beekeeping industry. I know very few beekeepers who spend any time on line. They may not be interested in sharing their views in this fashion. They may not be internet savvy. They may be too busy being beekeepers. Of course, there are exceptions. Mark --------------------------------- Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:52:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Current honey prices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, I have been keeping tabs on the Midwest Honey Hot line. Last month Richard Adee said 1.25 should be about right and that honey would go to a buck fifty before long. So far wishfull thinking. Has not happened. Around a dollar a pound has been tops and beekeepers are wondering why. The highest price quoted by a big packer was .78 a pound. Dutch Gold. The Midwest honey hot line has been very accurate over many years. Far more accurate than the bee magazines ON LARGE LOTS OF BULK HONEY. If you call the honey hot line the line thinks all the packers are getting together to keep prices down. Isn't price fixing illegal? Surely not! I personally do not think that's the case but rather because they are stocked up with foreign honey knowing the loophole was being closed. The packers also know beekeepers are still sitting on a huge portion of last years crop. A commercial beekeeper friend is sitting on the last four years of his honey crop. I believe if honey crops from before 2006 reach the market it will offset short 2006 crops but only my opinion. Like Brian said in an earlier post areas east of the Dakotas and north of me had bumper crops. The boys in the Dakota's have sit back and had honey crops many times over 200 pound averages while the rest of us were on a honey production "merry go round". The ones I spoke with said they never saw it coming. Many are hurting cash flow wise. Honey selling for around a buck a pound is a money maker in my book! Packers were offering 60-70 cents a pound ( and lower) last spring. hard to decide what to do: Buy now if you need honey or wait to see if price comes down. Sell now if you have got bulk honey or wait and see if price goes up. The regulars on the list ( Aaron, Keith, Randy, Lloyd, Mark ,Brian and others)can email me and I will provide the Midwest Honey hot line phone number. The number is mainly for members but many beekeepers have got the number. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 08:58:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Do comments on Bee-L reflect consensus views MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit U.S. or worldwide? Possibly the former, although I think it unlikely; certainly not the latter. The topic will also have an effect. There may be broad consensus on some points, but not on others. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 07:50:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:42:08 -0400, Bill Truesdell wrote: >Dennis Murrell ran some exceptional trial of bees on small cells and >found that bee size was not uniform but varied by season. Also, cell >size varied. >So big bees exist in a small cell colony. * Some problems with these measurements are method and accuracy. I wonder if the average beekeeper is capable of producing work as excellent and unbiased as someone like Friedrich Ruttner, for example. He writes: > It is not true that A. cerana is smaller than A. mellifera. These species greatly overlap in size. The northern types are generally larger than southern types. In Siberia where both species are kept together, [varroa] infested A. mellifera colonies and became a sever pest to the unadapted host. * This is important because it shows not only that the size difference may NOT be the key as to why A. cerana can tolerate varroa, but also that even A. cerana is larger in the north (or were they "upsized" too?) > Considering all measurements collectively, A. m. scutellata is a very well defined and relatively uniform race. This bee is believed to be the central type of the species A. mellifera, from which all the other races evolved. In consequence of the smaller body size, the cell diameter of the worker comb is smaller than the European races (4.7-4.9 mm). * This shows that the cell size is determined by the size of the bee. They make cells according to how big THEY are. (I know, it's a chicken and egg thing) > A. m. carnica is a large bee [with] characteristics which place this race at the extreme end of the C-branch in the multivariate analysis. * Here he sets it down, the Carniolans are naturally a bigger race. Of course, size varies from region to region, and perhaps from hive to hive and even within the hive. These measurements have to be done scientifically and subjected to statistical analysis. * I doubt most beekeepers have the knowhow to do it. And if the motive is to prove some point (as Ruttner was NOT doing), then the whole thing is supect, because the investigator would be tempted to throw out data that didn't confirm his or her hypothesis. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 07:59:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Chemicals and Farms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings Lest I be accused of being a booster of chemicals, I offer these highlights from Rachel's News: SOME CHEMICALS ARE MORE HARMFUL THAN ANYONE EVER SUSPECTED New evidence is flooding in to suggest that many industrial chemicals are more dangerous than previously understood. During the 1990s, it came as a surprise that many industrial chemicals can interfere with the hormone systems of many species, including humans. Hormones are chemicals that circulate in the blood stream at very low levels (parts per billion, and in some cases parts per trillion), acting like switches, turning on and off bodily processes. From the moment of conception throughout the remainder of life, our growth, development and even many kinds of behavior are controlled by hormones. Now new evidence is piling up to show that some of these hormone-related changes can be passed from one generation to the next by a mechanism that remains poorly understood, called epigenetics. * * * SCIENTISTS FIND FARM LINK TO BREAST CANCER A team of researchers who studied the occupations of nearly all the Windsor, Ontario women who developed breast cancer in a period from 2000 to 2002 found they were about three times more likely to have worked on farms than women who didn't have the disease. "If you were going to hypothesize about the No. 1 most likely cause of this elevated risk, I think you'd have to look at the whole chemical exposure that exists on farms," said Jim Brophy, head of the Occupational Health Clinics for Ontario Workers in Sarnia, and lead author of the paper. from Rachel's Democracy & Health News #876 "Environment, health, jobs and justice--Who gets to decide?" Thursday, October 12, 2006 www.rachel.org -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:33:35 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Current honey prices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>The boys in the Dakota's have sit back and had honey crops many times over 200 pound averages... Is this based on migratory beekeeping? What is the maximum, in your opinion, a stationary apiary can average in the best of locations? Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:53:51 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Chemicals and Farms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...Ontario women who developed breast cancer in a period from 2000 to 2002 found they were about three times more likely to have worked on farms than women who didn't have the disease. Farm chemicals such as fertilizers that make their way into the water farmers drink also interfere with female fertility. Is it any wonder some people strive to minimize their intake of toxic chemicals? Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:11:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: Do comments on Bee-L reflect consensus views MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was not so long ago that I was introduced to this site and signed on. There were times that I was going to unsubscribe because of what was posted and on occasion seems to have dragged on for too long. A tremendous amount of useful information has flowed from topics that we as beekeepers/researchers have been able to make use of and shared through meaningful continued on line discussion and some of that discussion has truly exposed the lack of knowledge of some basics that one would have expected some to know especially among those who have been into this for years from the way they respond. A conscensus -- not really Well thoughtout healthy discussion/debate should be the order of the day. Then again it's up to the moderators what they allow . Walter Ontario -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:37:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Current Honey Prices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, In summer North Dakota is wall to wall honey plants. The beekeepers use deep supers and 3-5 are filled. 200 pounds is an average. Many hives produce higher production. The Peace River area of Canada is similar. Even a bad beekeeper can be successful in those areas. Very few places on earth have had so dependable flows YEAR AFTER YEAR. This year the crop in the Dakota's failed. Lack of moisture the reason given me. First time for such a failure. The boys are taking it hard but few commercial beekeepers from other states are expressing sympathy. Our last big crop in Missouri was in 95 & 97 and still did not reach the 200 pound average. I had 157 pound average in 95. Although most hives in the Dakota's are on pallets the hives sit in a yard during the honey production. If I had to choose the best place in the U.S. to keep bees in summer for honey production it would be north Dakota. Beside honey production the honey comes off dry which eliminates the need to dry the supers before extraction. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:45:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: defining "artificial" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 22:38:53 -0700, Dee Lusby wrote: >wonder why bees are >artificially enlarged with oversized foundations, robbed of >all stores and fed artificial feeds,bred within unnatural >systems, and then medicated when they get sick, for nothing >is natural about all of doing this It seems like you missed my point completely. The point is that any and all agriculture is defined precisely by doing exactly the kinds of things you rail against (and cannot be agriculture without): "artificially" enlarging, "artificial" feeds, "artificial" breeding, "artificial" medical attention, and countless comparable such things. The point is that it's nonsensical to suggest an alternative beekeeping/agriculture free from "artificial" intervention/manipulation/management. If there's no "artificial" intervention in your "natural system," then you're not "keeping" bees any more, but harvesting wild honey. It's not just a pipedream; it's an oxymoron. I asked before what your rationale was for differentiating between this or that manipulation or management procedure, calling one "natural" and casting an evil shadow over the other. You seemed to recognize the point that all beeKEEPING is inherently (by definition) "artificial" when you said that "working with langs and even TBHs" is not really "natural," and, of course, it isn't. You didn't, however, provide any rationale for differentiating between what we ought and ought not to do. You did list several examples of what's natural, but we all know what's natural: sticking your hand in a tree hollow and tearing out a chunk of honey is "natural"; beekeeping isn't: box-shaped hives aren't natural, grafting isn't natural, bee yards with dozens of hives aren't natural, selected "breeder queens" aren't natural, moveable frames aren't natural, recycled wax isn't natural. Instead of randomly vilifying management practices for being "unnatural", shouldn't we recognize that all "management" is inherently "unnatural", and go about promoting better management? What I'm suggesting is that we should all stop saying, "do this because it's natural," and "don't do that because it's artificial," because that is tantamount to saying "beeKEEPING is bad," and that, we all agree, isn't what we want to say. But it's not as if this "natural" crusade is just harmless nonsense. It forms the basis for management decisions. It influences and intimidates all sorts of beekeepers. It influences customers. It leads consumers to unfounded fear and unfounded trust. And on the basis of what? I should be careful here not to suggest that all beekeeping practices are equal. That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm on the "organic" fringe myself, and I'd make all sorts of arguments for "organic" practices. It's only that asking the question "what's natural?" shouldn't determine all our beekeeping decisions. It might be helpful to consider other veins of agriculture. Apples are "artificially" grafted onto different rootstocks to keep the trees smaller. They're pruned to encourage disproportionate fruit set. Wheat has been bred for millenia to make the seed "unnaturally" big. Chickens are manipulated into laying more eggs than they could ever hatch or mother. Rice is grown in fields that are "artificially" flooded. Pigs are fed whey. Feed grains are ground smaller in mills. I'm not arguing that these practices are good, or bad, or neutral -- only that knowing what's "natural" isn't sufficient to know whether they are good, bad, or neutral. AND that trying to do so will surely lead us astray. It's the over-simplifying, the irrational justifications, the haphazard vilifying of beekeeping practices, and the false assurances that I object to. So I reject the blanket rejection and derision of all medications as "doping," even while I use no medications myself. I reject the utopian claim that untreated hives are necessarily "healthier" than treated hives. (To rephrase Peter's point, what about that untreated hive that's dead?) I reject the assumption that "artificial" practices must lead to things going wrong. ("Nature" does not and cannot tell us that sugar syrup is in any way inferior feed to honey; that can only be proven or disproven by actual evidence. "Nature" likewise does not and cannot tell us if and how much cell size matters; again, we must instead look to actual evidence.) I reject the blanket equating of "artificial" with "non-sustainable." I reject the assertion that, this side of the garden of Eden, we can "wear shoes" that "create no blisters," as Dee put it. If we reject that kind of utopianism, we should reject the conclusions that proceed from and are founded on those assumptions. I think Dee's argument for "small cell" rests on and collapses with these faulty assumptions. This isn't to say that "small cell" doesn't accomplish anything, only that Dee's argument for it is very unconvincing and potentially very misleading. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:13:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Chemicals and Farms In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > During the 1990s, it > came as a surprise that many industrial chemicals can interfere with > the hormone systems of many species, including humans. Organophosphates would be the key culprit on farms. They were a staple pesticide for years until exactly this problem was discovered. They are no longer allowed but are still around as exceptions. They were also in may pet treatments like flea and tick killers, including house "bombs" that you fogged the room. It would be interesting to see if the correlation also existed with farm women and if they had pets compared to those who did not. They could have as easily been effected by pet pesticides as the farm chemicals. Truth is, there are generally more controls over farm application of pesticides than household. It is not unusual to find that some chemicals that were thought benign are harmful, but care has to be exercised in blanket condemnations, since some of the tests are slanted to the ridiculous, especially when it comes to carcinogens. Just remember the whole saccharin fiasco. There are several so called carcinogens which are actually anti-cancer agents when found in their normal concentrations in food or cooked food (especially grilled food). However, when tested in the concentrations in a lab, they are carcinogenic. The same chemical can be good or bad depending on its application or concentration. Unfortunately, propaganda can cloud the truth in both directions. To me, that is the issue we are wrangling about in the whole "natural" beekeeping discussion. It seem to be an either/or issue with no rational middle. But that is not unusual. I practice "organic" beekeeping and gardening but have no issue with those who use pesticides or fertilizer, since I have used both in the past for specific issues. I will spray my peaches next year because of fungus and to save the trees. I do not spray my apples. But I do not sell them either since they all are damaged to some degree. I spoke to an organic expert about apples and his conclusion was just as I experienced, you need to spray to get clean fruit. (Yes, I know there are disease tolerant apple varieties, but have you tasted them? I chopped down the one I had just because it was so inferior to my other apples.) He would not let me quote him by name since he would have been condemned for going over to the enemy not so much from the leadership, but the members. Too many nuts among the berries. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:41:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: >> Dennis Murrell ran some exceptional trial of bees on small cells and >> found that bee size was not uniform but varied by season. Also, cell >> size varied. >> So big bees exist in a small cell colony. >> > > * Some problems with these measurements are method and accuracy. I wonder if > the average beekeeper is capable of producing work as excellent and unbiased > as someone like Friedrich Ruttner, for example. He writes: > Actually, for an 'average" beekeeper Dennis has done exceptional work. But then, many of those we now credit with laying the foundation for modern beekeeping were "average" beekeepers. I do consider his conclusions unbiased. His conclusions are in line with much of what you cite. My post was in support of what you said, but appreciate the additional info. One point I stressed, which is that he found a range of cell sizes, is, I think, a fundamental problem with any cell size discussion. I notice how the discussion has moved to bee size, not cell size. The reason is obvious, that bees differ in size by race as well as location, so one size no longer fits all. Now it is "small bee" but Dennis showed that bees in a "natural" colony differ in size by season and even during a specific season. That is found throughout nature, so I would not expect our bees to be any different. It is just we like order so give an average or mean as if it were an absolute. Which puts us long winter beekeepers in a quandary. I have 5.0 and sightly large foundation and have had it for years, but still have Varroa. It is interesting that the colony on the smallest cell size was the weakest and least productive of any of my other colonies even after re-queening. It died this spring so does that make small bees suspect in Maine? If I was a propagandist, the answer would be yes, but I have run many colonies on 5.0 with very good results, especially with Tracheal mites. I am trying some 4.9, which one colony has accepted and another rejected. So I figure next year I will let them make their own size. My guess is that I will not have Varroa tolerant bees any more than I have today, but we shall see. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:15:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bio fuels In-Reply-To: <45358840.4050409@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Most biodiesel (I own a vw diesel) comes from vegetable oils with soybean the greatest contributor. I do not know how much commercial pollinators are involved with soybean pollination, so that would be the the link of bees, pollination and education. Corn, obviously is not. Other players are canola, which is commercially pollinated as well as sunflowers, which have a major increase in seed production from honeybees. So the key is soybeans, and what I have seen is that there is an increase (small to .95x depending on variety) in production by bees, but not the many-fold increase as with other crops like sunflowers (3x or more). Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:11:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Chemicals and Farms In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Very good Peter for saying this, and all the more reason for beekeepers to go to organic beekeeping without all usages of the various dopes/treatments, now on today's market, so you don't have to touch the stuff, nor smell it in what you do. Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:22:24 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Re: Pseudoscorpions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In reply to Dee, the little we know about the species of pseudoscorpions that live right among bees in India and Africa suggests that if they are present in hives, they can eat sufficient varroa to control them. As far as is known, the species of bee-specific pseudoscorpions are the only creatures that can move freely among bees and over the brood. They are most active at night, so would be rarely seen among the bees during the day. I must emphasize that bee-specific pseudoscorpions are very small - only 6 mm long, and are nothing like real scorpions, so if pseudoscorpions were living among my bees and controlling varroa, I wouldn't care how many crawled up my leg. Not that any would, because they live in hives. It seems possible that pseudoscorpions in New Zealand and the U.S., that are seen during the day under the edge of cover boards and hive mats etc., might sally forth at night into the bees, there to eat varroa. But whether this happens we simply do not know. We need research to determine whether pseudoscorpions are doing some good, and by publishing on the topic, I and my co-authors Dr Flora Paul and Wouter Hyink are hoping to stimulate research. Until we gain facts, all is speculation. However we are speculating that research may eventually result in management of pseudoscorpions in hives so that varroa - and other arthropod enemies of bees- are controlled. Regards, Barry Donovan, New Zealand. Visit our website at http://www.crop.cri.nz ______________________________________________________ CAUTION: The information contained in this email is privileged and confidential. If you read this message and you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of all or part of the contents is prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. Any opinions or views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not represent those of their employer. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:36:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Current honey prices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:33:35 GMT, waldig@netzero.com wrote: >>>The boys in the Dakota's have sit back and had honey crops many >times over 200 pound averages... > >Is this based on migratory beekeeping? What is the maximum, in your >opinion, a stationary apiary can average in the best of locations? > Here in south central Mn folks who winter over or move in here for the season figure 3-4 supers per hive or 100-120 pounds as a year after year season average. This year 150 is more like it. West of here in the Dakota's the number is higher but highly dependent on rain and good weather. Keep in mind an average is just that a mathematical distribution where many hives can do 6-10 supers with good management and good weather. Of course the other tail of the distribution means we have some 1 or 2 super hives too. I mark my supers with a hive number and super ID using letters A,B,C etc to track floral sources. My record is M with 520 pounds (some were deeps), this year I had a H super hive. A large migratory keeper who lives nearby figures he can do better by staying here year after year rather then roll the dice with Mother Nature and try for a larger one season average in the Dakotas. We're fortunate here to have a long season. We have nectar coming in early May for colony build up and an occasional super to pull, some years we get a good June crop, July and the first 2 weeks of August is the main flow and some seasons we get a box or two in Sept also. But you talk to the old timers and they say honey production is off about 1/3 from the 50's & 60's before real estate development started en-mass. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:39:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit News from California to anyone wanting to bring bees into north valley. The ag commissioners have come to agreement--I will post it as soon as I get an electronic copy (probabaly tomorrow). They mentioned that the fine for circumventing the bug stations is $25,000, and they intend to enforce it. If you might have SHB, you may wish to go south of Sacramento. Randy Oliver Reporting from California -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:50:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe bossom Subject: pseudo scorpions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The local veggie farmers tell me that there is a small (tick size) = scorpion type bug living in the top 3" of the soil locally, (Southeast = New England by the Sea). It has been known to bite gardeners on = occasion causing no serious damage. Is this the same beast you all are = talking about that likes to east varoa mites? Obviously I am no = Entomologist and would not know the name of the local insect except that = it looks like the fellow in the photographs. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:26:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: defining "artificial" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric Brows: The point is that it's nonsensical to suggest an alternative beekeeping/agriculture free from "artificial" intervention/manipulation/management. If there's no "artificial" intervention in your "natural system," then you're not "keeping" bees any more, but harvesting wild honey. Reply: Like I said there is nothing wrong with langs or TBHs, and basic field management most all do. And I do go for the harvesting of wild honey free from fears, as much as possible of contamination by all various in house doping/treatments be it IPM or not, for medication of various pests, predators and diseases. I also do not believe in artificial feeds fed back by beekeepers, while taking the naturally harvested one the bees themselves gathered.I also dont believe in complex hybridization of honeybees as it doesn't appear in the true wild. Only simple ones exist next to races/strains. continuing: You didn't, however, provide any rationale for differentiating between what we ought and ought not to do. Reply: Basically you keep doing what your doing with exception of the usage of all various doping/treatments be it IPM or not for pests, predators and diseases. Also you don't artificially feed artificial sugar or pollen to your bees. You feed them real honey or pollen when they need it, which is seldom and usually only connected with new splits/divides. You also acclimitize your bees by local breeding be it splits or divides or utilization of feral bees caught. You also size back down to comb sizes by either TBH self drawing of combs or usage of SC 4.9mm top tolerance foundation to reach basic regression, and then let the bees come on from there once stabilized and queen shifted, with each sizing down, depending upon how many needed to get from present size one is currently on. This is done so environment is redone, so diet is redone, and breeding follows. Continuing: shouldn't we recognize that all "management" is inherently "unnatural", and go about promoting better management? Reply: Probably, but disease and pest/predator problems gone wild the past 100 years is a recent thing IMPOV and bees have been kept in various management ways okay for centuries. So containers really no problem, and normal everyday management most do no problem. So simply take away the artificial feeds and use real honey and pollen. Simply don't do all various treatments/doping methods. And other then simple divides/splits if one wanted to get away from simple grafting even this would be another option, so only simple hybrids are worked with in one's local area, acclimitized to your local area/region also. Then put the bees back onto sizing in the center of the natural sizing spectrum and when stablilzed let them go from there. That way you will end up with size range of small,medium.large needed for variability in your area. Also in size range remember that you split hairs with sizing and not dramatic differences and most don't do much distance in keeping bees.Only todays bees are seen with much variation and that is due to complex mongrelization, and so beekeepers think this is normal haveing seen nothing else many times and this is wrong. It is also why SC is recommended with 4.9mm top tolerance being in center of spectrum to give the bees a starting point to zero down to, to then come forward again depending upon where the bees are kept. continuing: (To rephrase Peter's point, what about that untreated hive that's dead?) I reject the assumption that "artificial" practices must lead to things going wrong. Reply: Bees inbred and closed population bred and upsized do have a way of no making it when put back. Bees in the wild do not inbreed, and only do simple hybrids, not complex ones. continuing: "Nature" likewise does not and cannot tell us if and how much cell size matters; again, we must instead look to actual evidence.) Reply: This is why it takes several regressions down to get to good acclimitized bees for ones area, and also dependent upon the spheres of influence in any one given area to amount of domestic LC bees kept to keep things off balance. It is why also those having problems are recommended to use SC foundation beginning,for an imprint to help the bees draw better more consistent comb, because of variability of subfamiles of worker bees in size,in same hives due to complex mongrelization in most localities. You use the foundation then to get size uniformity so with uniformity comes better breeding uniformity size wise to get beter mated into the feral populations for obtaining surivorship trait needs found there. Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:56:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter: In Siberia where both species are kept together, [varroa] infested A. mellifera colonies and became a sever pest to the unadapted host. Reply: Actually the Apis mellifera colonies did fine up until the 1960s thereabouts in remembering, living side by side quite well up until then. The change then was made to new comb in the 1960s of the Apis mellifera colonies to bigger by the way and problems slowly started, and it was also about this time that apis mellifera bees from this area were brought back to the EU area. continuing: In consequence of the smaller body size, the cell diameter of the worker comb is smaller than the European races (4.7-4.9 mm). Reply: Here one has to read the paper and note specific races vs lumping of of races as European races, besides the fact that many mediterranean bees are within this size range, along with those closer to sea level in western coastal areas according to texts in Bee World by various authors. continuing: (I know, it's a chicken and egg thing) Reply: Yes it is in a way. For you can only upsize or downsize about .2mm to .3mm each changeout up or down and it was decided way back in the early 1900s to upsize while selecting for bigger queens to to lock the sizings in. For those interested in reading more start with the Paris beekeeping conference in about 1933/34 internationally and continune from there in archives of Bee World, though other source are avail also. * Here he sets it down, the Carniolans are naturally a bigger race. Of course, size varies from region to region, and perhaps from hive to hive and even within the hive. These measurements have to be done scientifically and subjected to statistical analysis. Reply: Yes, the sizing broke down into small, medium and large and the small end is in line or smaller then 4.9mm by the way. Problem is when you cut off the small end you cut off quite a bit of variability when problems arise as we have today.You cannot just stay with large, or small even. YOu really need to take a middle ground, go to ground zero, and stabalize and then let the bees decide direction to take, which is why we regressed size down in stages and when we hit middle ground, with 4.9mm size problems stopped. Our secondary diseases cleared up, meaning back to 1-2% levels as we were living day to day with varroa prior to on 5.0mm to 5.1mm sizing but secondary diseases were getting to us from about year 7-8 on and knew we had to fine tool more. So decision was made to go to 4.9mm and begin retooling down all over again for the difference of .1mm to .2mm and that is small differnce for so much work. But then the secondary diseases cleared up also. We start year 11 this coming by the way...... on the 4.9mm Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 07:09:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: defining "artificial" In-Reply-To: <20061018222612.5723.qmail@web51611.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5F6A7473 > Also you don't >artificially feed artificial sugar or pollen to your bees. >You feed them real honey or pollen when they need it, which >is seldom and usually only connected with new >splits/divides. And what about years when the weather dictates the food stores within the hive? There are times, when it isn't the bees fault that they are light on stores going into winter...or at any time of the year. Drought, rain, cold....all can control the bees ability to feed themselves. And if you haven't honey to feed back, do you let your bees starve, because you refuse to feed sugar? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.5/483 - Release Date: 10/18/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 04:30:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Treating Wounds with Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Second in a series of articles on the presentations offered at APIMEDICA 2006 Treating Wounds with Honey APIMEDICA 2006, October 13, 2006, Athens, Greece Presenter: Professor Peter Molan, University of Waikato, Honey Research Unit SEE: http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:12:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Innovative approaches Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit STATUS OF POLLINATORS IN NORTH AMERICA, new from the National Research Council, assesses population trends among bees, birds, bats, and other animals and insects that spread pollen so plant fertilization can occur. Last year, honeybees -- millions of colonies of which are leased by farmers to ensure pollination -- had to be imported from outside North America for the first time in decades because of a shortage in the U.S. Excerpts: * Encourage innovative approaches to protecting honey bee health by * developing sustainable management programs for varroa mites, including methods for managing pesticide resistance in mite populations; * identifying additional natural and synthetic pesticides and least-toxic alternatives for mite control and bee management (for example, pheromones); and * developing non-chemical cultural bee management practices. * Improve genetic stocks of honey bees by * refining methods of identifying stocks with desirable traits for breeding, selecting, maintaining, and improving stocks with such desirable traits as disease and pest resistance, moderated temperament, and improved honey production, taking advantage of the opportunities afforded by the recently sequenced honey bee genome; * developing a third-party certification program to ensure the quality and effectiveness of commercial queens marketed or advertised as being parasite or pathogen resistant (or any other specific trait) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:19:48 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Innovative approaches Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...from the National Research Council... Last year, honeybees -- millions of colonies of which are leased by farmers.... had to be imported from outside North America for the first time in decades... Millions of colonies imported from outside of North America - is this accurate? Are they talking about package imports from Australia? I know over a million colonies are transported from out of state into the almond groves in California in January but I have not heard of colony importation from other countries. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:33:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Innovative approaches In-Reply-To: <20061019.082028.7754.708207@webmail47.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Millions of colonies imported from outside of North America - is this accurate? Not millions of colonies had to be imported, millions of colonies are leased by farmers. And again, that number is misleading. Not a million colonies are leased at one time, colonies leased for apples, can also be leased for stone fruits at a different time, and the same hives can later be leased for brambles, and then leased again for curcubits. Add up the number of colonies leased for multiple crops and the sum can total over a million. Aaron Morris - thinking lies, damned lies, maps and statistics! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:25:07 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: defining "artificial" In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20061019070152.0155de50@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The only time it isn't the bees' fault is when the beekeeper makes an error. Cycles of nature are things the bees need to negotiate. If you leave on a proper amount of honey, the bees should be able to negotiate a year of problems. If the climate is so bad 2, 3 or 4 years in a row, you might want to consider that the climate is changing, and not just "a bad year". Happened in Florida...Used to rain every afternoon like clockwork where I lived. Now you are lucky if it rains 3 or 4 times a year. Florida is becoming deserted, unless the weather cycle comes back and restores the floral landscape. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:38:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Innovative approaches Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: >Millions of colonies imported from outside of North America - is this >accurate? Are they talking about package imports from Australia? Waldemar, The sentence was confusing. Here it is: > Last year, honeybees -- millions of colonies of which are leased by farmers to ensure pollination -- had to be imported from outside North America for the first time in decades because of a shortage in the U.S. * The part between the dashes is a separate thought. It might better be stated thusly: > Last year, honeybees had to be imported from outside North America for the first time in decades because of a shortage in the U.S. Millions of colonies are leased by farmers to ensure pollination. Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:06:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: innovative approach Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>>>>>Last year, honeybees -- millions of colonies of which are leased by farmers to ensure pollination -- had to be imported from outside North America for the first time in decades because of a shortage in the U.S. That should read "tens of thousands." Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:45:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: defining "artificial" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Scot Mc Pherson wrote: > Florida is becoming deserted And I thought it had one of the fastest growing populations of any state... pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:06:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: defining "artificial" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:25 AM 10/19/2006, you wrote: >The only time it isn't the bees' fault is when the beekeeper makes an >error. Cycles of nature are things the bees need to negotiate. Of course the mere fact we are putting bees in a fixed location and with much higher densities (hives/yard or sq. mile) is artificial. Bees would naturally be able to cope as a whole population and could respond to even long (even decade long) weather cycles. The number of bees in an area would simply decrease and increase accordingly. This year's poor honey flow seems to be a perfect example of this. The percentage of hives I need to feed in each yard is directly proportional to the number of hives I have in the yard!. -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:47:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Brian_Fredericksen?= Subject: Re: defining "artificial" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:25:07 -0500, Scot Mc Pherson wrote: >The only time it isn't the bees' fault is when the beekeeper makes an >error. Cycles of nature are things the bees need to negotiate. If you >leave on a proper amount of honey, the bees should be able to negotiate Really thats quite a statement . I suspect you and Dee have not lived and kept bees in the northern USA. In the upper Midwest we typically see a dearth of nectar here in late August. This coincides with bee populations at their highest peak. Some years we get a Sept fall flow some years not. If you don't think bees don't need some manipulation or feed to winter over here in the North ah...what can I say. Then on to winter where our weather can vary from warm to cold or all cold and so on. Winter might be short (mid -Dec to mid Feb) or long from late Oct to early April . Its also impractical too to be digging into our hives here in winter to check or feed when temps are below zero into mid March some years, and snow depths can make access into bee yards difficult at best. If you do some research on bee feed in northern climates there are several studies that have shown that sugar syrup or corn syrup is equal to or superior to honey for winter bee feed. Running a succesful business requires decisions about how much to leave on and how much to feed at $0.17 per pound for syrup. When I here purist-like statements about how organic fruit should be grown and bees kept I always like to ask if the speaker knows of any operations like that which make a year around living. I grow apples and keep bees for a living, I appreciate the low useage of chems and medications and practice that in my business. Bottom line is I need to make a living. I also suspet that if it was so easy to be organic or 100% chem/med free there would a whole lot more folks doing it cause the retail price of products like that are looking good these days. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:52:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: defining "artificial" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >And what about years when the weather dictates the food stores within the hive? There are times, when it isn't the bees fault that >they are light on stores going into winter...or at any time of the >year. Drought, rain, cold....all can control the bees ability to feed >themselves. And if you haven't honey to feed back, do you let >your bees starve, because you refuse to feed sugar? This is a good question! I’m not going to suggest that one should or should not feed, because this is up to each individual beekeeper to decide. If you look at this from the perspective that “all beekeepers are breeders of bees“, and must therefore make critical decisions throughout the season to ensure he or she is breeding the best stock, some problems arise. When feeding implemented due to the extreme environmental conditions, you make impossible for any further effective assessments to be made for genetics that may be more fit for these swings in the climatic conditions that occur more often than not. And if all colonies are feed equally, this might equalize out the performance throughout the apiaries making it difficult for the beekeeper to make accurate colony assessments during the fall and spring on which colonies are outperforming for breeding purposes.,,, Any assessments that do identify the out-performers in fed colonies might be more reflective of which colonies are better at ‘taking up feed’ rather than at foraging in the fluctuating environmental conditions they must be compete and survive in’. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 07:33:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: defining "artificial" Comments: To: Dee Lusby Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric writes: You didn't, however, provide any rationale for differentiating between what we ought and ought not to do. Reply: Basically you keep doing what your doing with exception of the usage of all various doping/treatments be it IPM or not for pests, predators and diseases. etc. * You miss Eric's entire point. He is not asking for a list of practices. We all know what the practices are. * What is the *rationale*? What are the underlying reasons? The reasoning or principle that underlies or explains a particular course of action, or a statement setting out these reasons or principles? * You may have a clear idea in mind as to what is natural and what is artificial but can you say what the difference is? Because ultimately it sounds like: Natural is what YOU like and what you don't like isn't. * The definition of natural I prefer is "wild". It's easy to understand. Wild hives are natural, keeping bees with frames isn't. We humans aren't wild, we are a domesticated species and we have domesticated most of living creation. * We live in artificial environments, depend on fossil fuels for almost everything we do, are utterly dependent on "the system". The history of human destruction of wild ecosystems is long and just about complete. * The introduction of the African bee into the Americas and the introduction of the varroa mite into Apis mellifera are just two examples of human interference and the consequences of unnatural practices. * Bottom line, however, is there is no going back. Only going forward. Kneejerk rejection of current practices and blanket condemnations won't get us far, we have to climb the ladder to something better using the rungs we are on. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:28:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Saor Stetler Subject: Loss of Pollinators is Cause for Global Alarm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Published on Thursday, October 19, 2006 by the San Francisco Chronicle Loss of Species that Pollinate is Cause for Global Alarm, Researchers say by Juliet Eilperin Birds, bees, bats and other species that pollinate North American plant life are losing population, according to a study released Wednesday by the National Research Council. This "demonstrably downward" trend could damage dozens of commercially important crops, scientists warned, because three-fourths of all flowering plants depend on pollinators for fertilization. 'CAUSE FOR GLOBAL ALARM' Bees feed on pollen from a wild flower in Amman, May 31, 2005. Bees and other important pollinators such as birds and bats may be on the decline in the U.S., putting crops and other plants at risk, experts reported on Wednesday. (Ali Jarekji/Reuters) American honeybees, which pollinate more than 90 domestic commercial crops, have declined by 30 percent in the past 20 years. This poses a challenge to agricultural interests such as California almond farmers, who need about 1.4 million colonies of honeybees to pollinate 550,000 acres of their trees. By 2012, the state's almond farmers are expected to need bees to pollinate 800,000 acres. Gene Robinson, an entomologist at University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign and one of the 15 researchers who produced the report, said U.S. farmers had to import honeybees last year for the first time since 1922, underscoring the extent of the problem. "The honeybee industry is at a critical juncture," Robinson said. "The time for action is now." A number of factors have cut pollinators' numbers in recent decades, the researchers said. Pesticides and introduced parasites such as the varroa mite have hurt the honeybee population. Bats, which carry pollen to a variety of crops, have declined as vandalism and development destroyed some of their key cave roosts. John Karges, a Nature Conservancy conservation biologist who works with the federally endangered Mexican long-nosed bat in west Texas, said the bat's U.S. population fell from 10,000 in 1967 to 1,000 in 1983. The species feeds on nectar from the agave plant, which can be used to produce a sweetener as well as tequila. "This bat is rare and suspected of declining rangewide," said Karges, noting that it can now be spotted only at one protected cave site in Big Bend National Park. "I don't think anyone's looking at it annually or closely." The declines have been gradual and in some instances are hard to quantify, the committee concluded. But the panel's chairwoman, entomologist May Berenbaum of the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, said in a statement that there is already cause for alarm. "Despite its apparent lack of marquee appeal, a decline in pollinator populations is one form of global change that actually has credible potential to alter the shape and structure of terrestrial ecosystems," Berenbaum said. Animals carry pollen, which they pick up inadvertently while feeding on a plant's nectar, and transfer it from one flowering plant to another, sometimes over significant distances. The process not only boosts plant production but increases species' genetic diversity. Animal pollinators fertilize more than 187,500 flowering plants worldwide. Scientists believe these plants, called angiosperms, gained ecological dominance more than 70 million years ago in part because animals help them disperse their pollen so broadly. Other pollinators include hummingbirds and butterflies, as well as wild bees. In many ways pollination works as a chain, said committee member Peter Kevan, a professor at the University of Guelph in Ontario, in which even the largest animals depend on small insects. "Canadian black bears need blueberries, and the blueberries need bees" for pollination, Kevan said. "Without the bees you don't have blueberries, and without the blueberries you don't have black bears." Despite this crucial link, Robinson said, many ordinary citizens fail to grasp how important pollinators are to food production. European researchers also have documented serious declines: The diversity of bee species has declined by 40 percent in the United Kingdom and 60 percent in Holland since 1980. Europeans have more detailed records of pollinators than Americans, said University of Arizona entomologist Stephen Buchmann, partly because they have more amateur taxonomists keeping track of them. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:59:25 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: defining "artificial" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know of a beekeeper in alaska who doesn't feed his bees either. One in western canada who is upset due to causing a situation that will require feeding, but knows he/she created the situation by splitting x10 in the spring. The canadian beekeeper caused the situation by splitting 1 hive into 10 over the course of the beekeeping season. This beekeeper doesn't feed otherwise. This is a management fault, not a cause of natures cycles. These people do not feed when the bees are not able to gather enough, and they are quite far north. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 20:09:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Current Honey Prices In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all, See information on link below. Makes interesting reading. http://skamberg.com/honey.htm Regards, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:17:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: defining "artificial" In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20061019070152.0155de50@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Palmer: And what about years when the weather dictates the food stores within the hive? There are times, when it isn't the bees fault that they are light on stores going into winter...or at any time of the year. Reply: Gee glad you brought this up!... as we were technically in our 7th year of drought this year with only 1/2 rain from Oct 2005 to Jun 2006 and had no main flow for mesquite or spring build up with prickly pear this year for the first time in the history of our state. In June and July rounds to the bees we continued to give any honey surplus in strong hives to weaker ones of medium strength and let the weak ones simply go. For in years like this, and the past 7 you have your best chance to get rid of the ones that cannot survive for in Nature they simply die. So in our drought years we always let the lesser that cannot build up go and keep the medium to strong ones, so we keep getting better stock for local foraging in our area. Then the rains came and we had solid rain for two months and the most rain since back in 1954 which is over a half century ago. Try foraging in that! But the bloom with rains starting first part of July came starting by end of month and we have kept members posted on the organic list where we are. Our bees have had to refill completely the unlimited broodnest they keep practically from scratch during August and September. and now only with last flows coming on we are hoping and waitng to see if we get our surplus finally in the end and on the very last flows of the production year. But when we looked at our bees the middle of September they had stores and were coming and overall think we have to replace in bedding down maybe about 75 colonies thereabouts for average of 2-3 colonies in each yard which isn't bad. We took the boxes from the dead hives and being "no treatments" supered them on top of the 1/3 best in each yard to 5 deeps to hold equipment (they were all 4 deeps). Then come bedding down and seeing where we end up, all we have to do is take a box of bees and brood the old way and set back down from the best and pull boxes back off and resuper. Labor intensive, yes, but it keeps equipment and gives boxes for making fall honey extra, and then with late fall divides the old way you split best bees to make up numbers. Nothing hard........... But you follow the bees and only when full you take the surplus. Those in our area that went with calendar and took all honey and then fed back syrup are now working hard to make bees, and are going to have to feed all winter now. All we are going to do come 1 Nov is bed down, make splits and extract until done with all our 30 yards that should take about 2 + months to work thru and end up January sometime. So what about the weather dictating stores in the hive. That is for the bees to sort out, and then with the bees sorting out, we plan and do our work and strange though it was and is this year we feel confident it will still end well by following the bees and THEIR needs and not ours. This also is what unlimited broodnest managemtnt we do is for. Having the chance to work with the bees long-haul. Long winded in explaining here, maybe, but in natural management you have to learn to work with and follow the bees.....So far they have always come thru for us! REgards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:54:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: defining "artificial" Comments: To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, >These people do not feed when the bees are not able to gather enough, and they are quite far north. > Well Scot, I have many full-size colonies that are well stocked with pure honey for winter and a few nucs that were well stoked also, but to get the nucs through winter it is essential to feed and I use sugar syrup when I have no more honey to feed. I do not feed my full size colonies for evaluation reasons but the nucs need fed for reasons of our short season and the need I have for insuring winter survival of these nucs so they can show me the next season what kind of stuff their made of. Feed I find does have a purpose, but I am in agreement that feeding can skew evaluation of a colony for performance in local conditions when breeding to acclimatize a stock. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:33:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Innovative approaches In-Reply-To: <20061019.082028.7754.708207@webmail47.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "waldig@netzero.com" wrote:Millions of colonies imported from outside of North America - is this accurate? Now poeple, you know they got to sell papers. Total subscription rates are going down and they have to create interest in their product. Plus, sometimes they just don't get it right. When I read about a bee class I was conducting in my county, I suddenly discovered I was a professor at Auburn University. Boy! I surely did miss the pay I didn't get. [Big Smile] I think the journalist got two stories mixed up, all the migratory hives going in and the number of packages going in which origins down under. Mike in LA --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 00:04:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: defining "artificial" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Scott McPherson writes that he knows of "beekeeper in alaska who doesn't feed his bees either' He also doesn't take much honey either. Alaska's honey flow is basically the month of July, with maybe a little surplus at the end of June and a little at the beginning of August. There just isn't enough honey produced for a good harvest AND overwintering without feeding given the length of our winter. Even leaving ALL the honey will sometimes require feeding sugar. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 07:28:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: defining "artificial" In-Reply-To: <20061019221708.94654.qmail@web51612.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-30C83B1E > Michael Palmer: >And what about years when the weather dictates the food >stores within the hive? >Reply: > ... as we were technically in >our 7th year of drought this year >In June and July rounds to the bees we continued to give >any honey surplus in strong hives to weaker ones But the bloom with rains >starting first part of July came starting by end of month >Our bees have had to refill completely the unlimited >broodnest they keep practically from scratch during August >and September. >But when we looked at our bees the middle of September they >had stores I know there are extended quotes here, but... That is good, and your bees are lucky. The weather changed, and the bees were able to restock their hives. That is the point of acclimatized bees. They work with the weather/flows that they have. My point is...what if the rains hadn't come. What if the bees weren't able to gather enough to feed themselves. Once all the honey you have on hand is used up, then what? Allowing 2 or 3 weaklings to die, in each yard is one thing. Would you allow the entire yard to die? Would you allow your entire operation to die? What would be the point? I don't believe in taking all the bees hard earned honey, and replacing it with sugar. But, colonies that are too light to winter get what is needed. These colonies that need feed at the end of the season are still a valuable resource. They provide bees and brood for the next seasons' splits. Their genes are removed from the pool, but the colonies still have a place in my apiary. Come next June, these colonies of inferior stocks are split into 4 frame nucs. After building up for a month, they are further divided into 4 frame nucs, and given queens, raised from my best stocks. From that one colony, I can raise 8 - 12 nucs that are overwintered. The following year these colonies often go on to make the colony average...all because I was willing to feed each a few gallons of syrup to keep them alive during the extended winter. Tell me...you all who claim to never feed sugar...as if it were some immoral venture...how is that plan a bad thing? How does feeding sugar to these colonies effect my long term breeding program? If I let them die, as you all suggest, where will I get the bees and brood for my splits next summer? Should I split up my best colonies? I think not. These are my honey producers. I believe the goal of the beekeeper should be to maintain their colonies in top condition and strength as possible. That is surely the key to a successful apiary. By feeding a bit of sugar to the inferior stocks, I can maintain my bee/brood resource for next years' splits, and my best colonies for honey production. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.7/488 - Release Date: 10/19/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:49:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: What is 'North" In-Reply-To: <000201c6f231$e73c0ef0$668d453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I posted the following several years ago, so this is just a reminder to those who talk about "northern" or even Alaskan beekeeping that being there is not all it may seem to be as far as beekeeping is concerned. This was in reply to hive equipment in the North. Just one more thing to add that Alaska has a variety of climates including areas warmer than here in Maine, so one size does not fit all. Bill Truesdell (the archives are my friend) Bath, Maine Just a reminder that all beekeeping is local, and it is best to know the weather in the location that uses different equipment. Many parts of Europe are located much further north than much of the US, but enjoy fairly mild winters and have temps that are closer to Maryland than upper NY state or the Dakotas. Many parts of Sweden are warmer than parts of Maine, including one city close the the Arctic circle, all because they are intelligent and have their larger cities close to water and the warm Gulf Stream. Even in North America you can have exceptional differences - Maine vs Washington State. Upper NY State is cold, often colder than southern Maine, so I buy a lot of trees from that area knowing that if they survive there I have a chance here. So I would trust Lloyd's observations on wintering more than those from others, since our climates are close in temperature and other environmental factors. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:05:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Innovative approaches In-Reply-To: <20061020023300.67083.qmail@web53414.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There's no such thing as bad publicity. Or soI've been told. As long as they spell your name correctly that's about as much as you can expect. Journalists are only human, after all. Bill M., from Vermont, wrote a really good article about the effects of Varroa mites on modern beekeepers. He said that they are microscopic. He also described some really big crop averages. Two, what I would call, glaring errors in one two page article about bees and beekeepers ain't bad. I should probably go back and count the correct things that he wrote. Journalists are journalists, not beekeepers or whatever. Mistakes, typos and such will happen. My hat is off to them for taking an interest. Mark "waldig@netzero.com" wrote:Millions of colonies imported from outside of North America - is this accurate? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:30:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: Do comments on Bee-L reflect consensus views MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark wrote, > We could have a consensus of views amongst ourselves here on Bee-L. But, I > don't think that that consensus would be representative of anything other > than a small portion of the beekeeping industry. > > I know very few beekeepers who spend any time on line. They may not be > interested in sharing their views in this fashion. They may not be > internet savvy. They may be too busy being beekeepers. > > Of course, there are exceptions. Mark you may bee close to the mark on your thoughts. But here's something to consider, Kim Flottum of Bee Culture, wrote about BEE-L in this months Oct "almond pollination 2007" issue. Also both articles in A.B.J on almonds Oct & up coming Nov issues by myself & Randy O. came to life partly because of mis info being posted on BEE-L.That's what motivated us to do this article in the first place. Also some of the largest brokers & keepers read this list and forward many of our post, don't under estimate how far BEE-L reaches. Keith Jarrett Calif. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:08:53 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Do comments on Bee-L reflect consensus views In-Reply-To: <000e01c6f265$cc4f3700$fb5df604@wendyf10934cd0> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Jarret, You will find as you stick around that much of the material printed in both magazines are a result of what is discussed here. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 16:19:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Brian_Fredericksen?= Subject: Re: Chemicals and Farms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:13:17 -0400, Bill Truesdell wrote: >Organophosphates would be the key culprit on farms. They were a staple >pesticide for years until exactly this problem was discovered. They are >no longer allowed but are still around as exceptions. Organophosphates are still very much used in apple and berry production. California has implemented tighter controls and nationwide there are attempts to make them illegal but they are very much available and heavily used. Most verisons are not even on the restricted useage list so any person can purchase and use them. Bill you mentioned organic apples and spraying, excpept in drier climates like Washington, organic apples give about a 35% pack out rate compared to 80% or higher in conventional apple growing. As much as some "granolas" would like to claim and think otherwise organic apple growing is hardly economically feasible in most of the USA. I grow apples and feel that the general public needs to understand that in apple production there is a continuum with no spray on one end and heavy over use on the other. IPM works and can put a grower on the no spray side of the mid point of the continuum. The choice of pesticide and useage rate can vary considerbaly . I have found I can use 1/3 of the package application rate if timed well through the use of insect traps and have good results. I have had my apples tested by FDA lab and they could not detect any level of the pesticide or fungicide that I used. I reject the notion that farm chemicals are all bad and unsafe. I've stated this before on this list I have 20 hives on the edge of my orchard year around and have not had one single problem. I had more trouble with aerial spraying of peas and alfalfa and my bees passing through the drift. . I find it interesting that many people have such strong opinions about something they have only read about. Even some of the materials ok for organic certification still can cause a problem if the spray cloud is inhaled and if concentrated amounts find their way into a well or body of water. It realy is incumbent on the grower to be resopnsible and well informed. I beleive that there is a massive lack of education in the minds of the consumer and growers about chemical useage. I'm a firm beleiver in better living through chemistry, since if we are going to move towards safer ag chems it will come from the chemistry lab not from the Cheech & Chong crowd who want everything "natural" and appear sometimes to have no technical knowledge of how to move away from chems other then "no spray". -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:26:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Interesting but unknown trash removal In-Reply-To: <20061020180548.56940.qmail@web32105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Buddy of mine has a hive that is seeminly throwing out pollen from the hive. The hive is located in southwest Alabama. It has a solid bottom board. I didn't go into the hive but he said that it's a fairly strong hive. I gathered some of the trash and it really looked like, and felt like, pollen. All of this trash was being carried out of the north corner of an east facing hive. While we were looking a worker drug out a deformed pupa. It looked rather flattened vertically. It's eyes were just beginning to turn purple. I did not notice any varroa on it although there could have been. That was remiss of me for not checking thoroughly. Have any of you had any such experience? If so, do you know the causitive factors? Mike in LA (Lower Alabama) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:36:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: defining "artificial" In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20061020065820.02c9b378@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Palmer: My point is...what if the rains hadn't come. What if the bees weren't able to gather enough to feed themselves. Once all the honey you have on hand is used up, then what? Allowing 2 or 3 weaklings to die, in each yard is one thing. Would you allow the entire yard to die? Would you allow your entire operation to die? What would be the point? Reply: First of all even in our desert climate and hardest of years, your what-if still does not pertain to real world, at least out here. And the few years before, rain didn't come that much with monsoons, and we were behind with rain tallies, and only had even 6-8 inches or less for whole year. Still as bad as it is normally, some bees do gather honey quite well, and the bees are fast sorted out with surival of the fittest. It is something I think you would have to see in an extreme climate to be able to recognize it. But even so with about 30 yards to manage, in really bad years you do what you do with other livestock grazed on the open range. You simply move them to other available pasture, as there is always variability in pasture and plants during droughts/dearths. Did that with 3 yards this year by the way in first half. Had to relocate 3 truckloads to other valleys/maountain ranges we keep our beeyards in. Then after seeing paths started of first rains, then you have to move bees back from where taken and reset back up once situations straighten out. While we don't do migratory beekeeping, we do keep bees in 4 main valleys/mountain ranges in S. Arizona and work bees accordingly. It is same with cattle in open range grazing. You move them from pasture to pasture as needed..., with bees you try to locate using sites picked for full year diversity of plants, meaning plants applicable for good spring buildup, main flows, and late summer, and fall maintenance. You do not pick for one specific time of year for that is poor site location picking for good sustainable forage for your bees. Also like I said in previous post, you learn to work with unlimited broodnest management for carryover stores to get you thru most all lulls and droughts, to give the bees a chance to adjust themselves for what they have to do and most often times they will. continuing: I don't believe in taking all the bees hard earned honey, and replacing it with sugar. But, colonies that are too light to winter get what is needed. Reply: We too balance stores by robinhooding from the good produces to the lesser ones, by only to a certain point. New splits/divides are fed back, and those newly caught in the feral are also fed. But those hive being there all year and still in holding pattern are let go and phased out and absorbed. They must show they can build and sustain in our harsh desert climate. If they cannot then sorry, they go. continuing: Tell me...you all who claim to never feed sugar...as if it were some immoral venture...how is that plan a bad thing? How does feeding sugar to these colonies effect my long term breeding program? If I let them die, as you all suggest, where will I get the bees and brood for my splits next summer? Should I split up my best colonies? I think not. These are my honey producers. ..... By feeding a bit of sugar to the inferior stocks, I can maintain my bee/brood resource for next years' splits, and my best colonies for honey production. Reply: No offense, but if you are feeding the weak and keeping the best for honey production and not spliting from them for increase, or as you say: "By feeding a bit of sugar to the inferior stocks I can maintain my bee/brood resource for next years splits..........and my best colones for honey production" Who would want to do splits from the weaker side carried over that cannot feed selves? and then do honey production how----------by taking the honey and feeding back sugar? This is not honey production IMPOV with good strong stock. I like stock that even in the hardest of drought years has own honey to live on, and still makes surplus for me. But I get this stock by spliting/dividing from the strong only and not carrying the bottom 1/3 weaker if they cannot maintain themselves right througout the active year. To carry the weak end for longhaul somehow doesn't sound a good longterm path to go down. Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:53:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: a e Subject: sulfa drugs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Aaron & all of my friends on the list, Will I able to make use of sulfa drugs for the prevention or control of diseases in honey bee colonies? Sincerely, Abbas __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 07:42:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: sulfa drugs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Abbas, Where I keep bees the short answer to this question is, "Yes you can, = but no you may not." First, you do not state what disease (s) you want to prevent/control. = Prior to oxytetracycline, sulfa drugs were used to prevent/control = American Foulbrood. Sulfa drugs were effective, but left residues in = honey. With the advent of oxytetracycline (terramycin), sulfa drugs = were withdrawn from the list of approved chemicals in a beehive. After = 50+ years as the sole sanctioned antibiotic, Paenibacillus larvae is = becomming resistant to TM. The newest treatment to replace TM is = tylosin, which is also prone to leaving residues in honey long after it = is used. Furthermore, in New York we have a catch 22 in that tylosin is = only labeled to treat active cases of AFB, and New York State requires = that all active cases of AFB be burned. Sulfa drugs, as far as I know, can be an effective treatment for AFB. = However, in New York State I may not use them. Now please folks, don't use this post to fuel up the discussion about = natural/unnaturat/biological/organic beekeeping, that thread is really = quite worn out and seems to be going nowhere (less filling, tastes = great)! Can sulfa drugs treat AFB? Yes the can. In New York I may not = use them. Should one use them? That debate can go on forever with no = real answer. Please, lets skip that debate. Aaron Morris - thinking the label is the law! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 07:43:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: sulfa drugs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One more thing about sulfa drugs for AFB, I do not know what the dosage = would be for a honey bee colony. Sulfa drugs were withdrawn for use in = beehives before I was born (I think, I'm not positive about that), they = were definitely banned before I became a beekeeper. As far as dosage = and method of use, I would refer anyone asking to the label on the = package, where they likely will discover as I just posted that sulfa = drugs are not labeled for use in honey bee colonies. Aaron Morris - thinking the label is the law! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 08:46:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: defining "artificial" In-Reply-To: <20061020223614.34219.qmail@web51612.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7E7C39D4 > Reply: > Who would want to do splits from the weaker >side carried over that cannot feed selves? and then do >honey production how----------by taking the honey and >feeding back sugar? This is not honey production IMPOV with >good strong stock. Dee, I think you don't listen, and you think only your management plan is workable and correct. Did I say I take all the honey, and feed back sugar? No! In fact, I said just the opposite. Most of my colonies make 100 - 200 lbs of honey...all in a short honey producing season of 2 1/2 months They don't have to be fed any amount of sugar...either in the spring, or the fall. They don't have Chalkbrood, Sac Brood, Dysentery, or any other bee diseases. The queens are very prolific and long lived. They maintain large, unlimited broodnests...see, others run unlimited broodnests, too...so critical for our short northern bee season. Those that don't perform as I want, get culled. Now, doesn't this sound a bit like what you are saying? I would say so, with one exception. I don't let my weak, unproductive colonies..."go", as you would say. Instead, I use the bees and brood to make my splits...giving each a new queen raised from my best stock. Also, another difference... I no longer make my splits in the spring, as is traditional among beekeepers. Instead, I make my splits in mid to late summer. These splits are over wintered as 4 frame nucs. This plan allows me to manage my good colonies for honey alone, rather than for bees and honey. See, we have a very short season. If I split my strong colonies in the spring, it takes until the end of June for them to get built up for later flows. This pretty well eliminate the honey crop from Honeysuckle, Berries, Locust, and early Clovers. Another reason for making splits later in the summer...nucs winter better than full sized production colonies with Dysentery, Tracheal or Varroa. Those production colonies that can't make the winter are replaced or re-queened with an over wintered nuc. So, a question for you. Do you see the similarities in our management plans? Can you understand what I am doing here in Vermont...6" of snow last night. I approach things a bit differently, but only because I have to. We have a short season here in the north. The bees have about two chances to make it. I believe my management plan increases their success...certainly increases mine. Read and understand what I have written here. If I sound a bit annoyed, believe it. I am. I get tired of you and your disciples blasting everyone who doesn't follow your path. You all know nothing of beekeeping in the Champlain Valley of northern New York and Vermont. You should have more of an open mind about other beekeeping plans, and not think yours is the only way. Contrary to what you say...this IS honey production with good strong stock in the northern Champlain Valley along the northern US border...IMPOV. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date: 10/20/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:14:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Diotima Booraem Subject: Re: Chemicals and Farms In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:19 PM 10/20/2006, you wrote: >Bill you mentioned organic apples and spraying, excpept in drier >climates like Washington, organic apples give about a 35% pack out >rate compared to 80% or higher in conventional apple growing. > >As much as some "granolas" would like to claim and think otherwise >organic apple growing is hardly economically feasible in most of the >USA. Well, here in Hendersonville, NC, commercial organic apple production is alive and well. http://www.agr.state.nc.us/NCproducts/ShowSite.asp?ID=2471 I took a class with the owner of this farm at the Organic Grower's School, an annual event held here in Western NC. He said it is certainly possible to get a good crop using organic methods, but it is slightly more expensive, due to the cost of the sprays and other, somewhat labor intensive control methods used. However, his apples are gorgeous, and he said the price he gets for for them more than makes up for it. I can buy lovely, large unblemished organic apples in not only Coops and Whole Foods type supermarkets, but in just about any supermarket in this area, including the "gourmet" supermarkets. It can be done, and is being done. It will become cheaper to do this as economics of scale kick in. I've been saying this for over 30 years, since I was in graduate school in Agronomy -- the wholesale destruction of soil and other life caused by the use of broad spectrum pesticides, the use of petroleum-dependent fertilizers and the poor management of organic matter and soil health that are trademarks of conventional agriculture is simply not a sustainable way of feeding the world long term. And please do not reply that we feed so many more people with so much less land today. I am talking about sustainable, and long term. I won't even get into the nutritional value or flavor of what is grown. I will, for those of you who are interested, suggest this book: http://www.amazon.com/Hundred-Year-Lie-Medicine-Destroying-Health/dp/0525949518/sr=8-1/qid=1161438309/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9734107-1428806?ie=UTF8&s=books as a good first look at why I feel so strongly about this. It focuses more on medicine than agriculture, but does go into the chemicals that we cannot avoid that are now in our food, air and water due to modern agricultural practices. I am a new beekeeper -- got two packages in 2004, split them in 2005 and so now have 4. I have never used chemicals in them, though I have been feeding in Spring. (I may not do this next year, though.) While I've pretty much ignored my hives this year (my Dad died in June and it's just been one of those summers) they seem to be thriving. I have found much of interest on this list, and on Dee's Organic Beekeeping list. I will probably go back to lurking now (though I am sure there will be some thunderous disagreements with what I have written), but since I am writing, I want to thank those of you who are so quick and willing to share your knowledge. Beekeeping is quite an art, and it has been very helpful to me to be able to read these discussions. Regards, Diotima (Card carrying granola and tree-hugging dirt-worshipper) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "If there is a better solution...find it" Thomas Edison Virtual Assistance: The better solution for small business. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Diotima Booraem, CPVA Virtual Executive Assistance http://www.virtualhelp.biz E-mail: diotima@virtualhelp.biz -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:07:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: defining "artificial" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Someone Wrote: >* You may have a clear idea in mind as to what is natural and >what is artificial but can you say what the difference is? >….Wild hives are natural, keeping bees with frames isn't A good question and good comment also! I’m not going to suggest how others should define natural, because this is up to each individual beekeeper to decide. But I do wish to comment with my thoughts on the matter. Perhaps, one cannot separate human influences from the environment. If the void is available in the honeybees environment and accepted as a potential nesting site (man made or not), then it is a part of the bees habitat and therefore perfectly natural for bees to inhabit such a site weather in an old farmhouse or empty wine barrel. For bees to ignore a potential site within its habitat due to it being unnatural, would neglect their basic survival instincts which are to exploit what is found in the habitat for survival. And therefore avoiding ’unnatural voids’ just because they are human made would be unnatural in itself. Perhaps, to the bees, the hive box is ‘just another void’. It is already well documented that “neither cavity shape nor entrance shape is important“ when honeybees choose a nesting site. The human perception of ‘what is natural’ means nothing as far as the bees are concerned. Bees may build a nest in any suitable void no mater how it may be configured or 'who configured it'. And the nest structure and size will be determined by colonies needs as it expands in relation to the aspects of the void, and would make it natural nesting site as far as the bees are concerned. If a colony of bees happens to build a nest in a box with frames, OR is forced there by the beekeeper, they will still follow the natural set of rules while expanding and building their nest in this void. That the frames are spaced in a way so as to utilize the bees natural tendency to leave bee space and be manipulated should be of no consequence. An analogy I’ve been pondering: If it is natural for chimpanzees to make and use simple tools for ’chimpanzee interference’ in nature (primates are known to use short sticks for extracting honey from stingless bee nests, but choose longer sticks for extracting honey from AHB nests). Then why is it somehow unnatural for humans to make and use tools for ’human interference’ in nature? How can humans be said to be affecting nature, impacting the habitat and yet in the same breath are said not to be a part of nature? I choose to use a little ‘practical strategy’ when defining the term natural and unnatural. ‘unnatural’ - I choose to define as the line that when crossed causes ‘significant impact’ on the honeybees natural selection process that is essential for the promotion of survival of the fittest and acclimatized genetics. This I specifically define to mean anything other than routine beekeeper manipulations, and manipulations designed to encourage a colony to perform at its highest level that gives a colony an unfair genetic representation in the habitat. So “crutches” for example may prop up poor genetics (increasing or decreasing drone production or swarming, winter survival etc.) causing them to be misrepresented in the breeding sphere in relation to how nature intends them to be represented. This can hasten the acclimatization of honeybees thru breeding as Brother Adam states is essential for the long term health and survival of the honeybee. ‘Natural’ - I choose to define in beekeeping as the keeping of honeybees as much as possible under a system of harmonious relationship between the honeybee, beekeeper and the environment, by using beekeeping methodry that promotes the healthy development of the honeybee colony and its natural way of living together with the needs of the beekeeper. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 09:19:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Interesting but unknown trash removal In-Reply-To: <20061020192614.625.qmail@web53409.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike: This is a little different then when the bees chew out granulated honey in crowded conditions to make room and spit out front. Pollen does get thrown out from time to time but not often as it is necessary for brooding. So question: In the corner or north side it is on: Did it get wet and mold to make for cleaning out? Did it get moth larvae into it being on side where small slit or opening could be to get bees to want to clean the pollen out? Other small insect burrowing into it to make the bees want to clean it out? Is it outside frame and next to wall? Just thinking about what you wrote. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 09:42:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: defining "artificial" In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20061021075920.03d76ee8@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Palmer writes: So, a question for you. Do you see the similarities in our management plans? Reply: So why didn't you say this up front in the first place? continuing: I get tired of you and your disciples blasting everyone who doesn't follow your path. Reply: This could be said of other management styles where treatments and feeds are applied and thought to be normal courses of action for keeping healthy bees. continuing: HOwever if our styles are so similar, not that I wasn't raised in New York state and learned beekeeping there upstate, funny you didn't bring the similarities up prior in posting. Glad you are qualifying what you do with the weak colonies, for absorbing them into your outfit for the benefit of the stronger is certainly the way to go and a good way to get rid of them. One always splits/divides from the strongest to keep strong healthy bees and absorbs the weak and gets rid of them letting them go. In the mean time if they disappear on own merit thoroughout the active season, you pick up the equipment and upon examining if okay you reuse. But still, I am against the feeding of sugar and artificial feeds and will not be proded by you or others into seeing such actions as okay. But then you have your point of view and I have mine and what is natural to bees and the forage they are raised and kept upon. YOu hold back real of each for emergencies or know of where to obtain it. Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:45:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: defining "artificial" In-Reply-To: <20061021164216.87758.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-9417495 > Reply: >So why didn't you say this up front in the first place? I didn't? I said on 10/20, in my first post: "I don't believe in taking all the bees hard earned honey, and replacing it with sugar. But, colonies that are too light to winter get what is needed. These colonies that need feed at the end of the season are still a valuable resource. They provide bees and brood for the next seasons' splits. Their genes are removed from the pool, but the colonies still have a place in my apiary." Read it again. I think I described my plan quite clearly. > One always splits/divides from >the strongest to keep strong healthy bees and absorbs the >weak and gets rid of them letting them go. Not necessarily. Dividing strong colonies in my northern location guarantees a smaller honey crop. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date: 10/20/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 14:18:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: defining "artificial" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, In my opinion, natural beekeeping is constitutional in the structure of = honey bee biology, and artificial is honey bee biology produced or = modified by human skill and labor, in opposition to natural. I lean more = to natural but I am keeping bees in an unnatural location for honey bees = to naturally thrive and must incorporate some artificial means. I am = ammazed at how some honey bee colonies can actually thrive in Alaska, = This is what keeps me captivated and encoraged to continue more work up = here in breeding honey bees and developing better wintering methods for = my perticular location. =20 . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 18:20:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: defining "artificial" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 21/10/2006 22:57:45 GMT Standard Time, mpalmer@TOGETHER.NET writes: > One always splits/divides from >the strongest to keep strong healthy bees and absorbs the >weak and gets rid of them letting them go. Split the weak, use queens raised from the strong, and that way you don't lose much honey. Next year, the splits will hopefully have become strong colonies. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 20:09:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Re: defining artificial ( organic apples) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, I would like to add my two cents worth. I am in beekeeping to make a profit. I use similar methods to Michael Palmer. I used different methods when keeping bees in Florida. I feed fructose. What an asset! All the other beekeepers saying feeding fructose is bad for bees have dropped the issue after years of research on the subject by USDA researchers ( except maybe Dee & Joe). Countless research is refered to in the archives saying feeding fructose does NOT hurt bees. Also painting all treatments used in beehives as "dopes" does not help in getting the research community to look into your methods. I am on a first name basis with most of todays research community and they say you will not listen to what the have got to offer on a subject. I learned a hell of lot more by listening than I ever did by talking. I have read most the old beekeeping books and find little of value. A couple points in Millers books and maybe one point in Richard Taylors. Todays bee labs have got the technology. Mass spec and electron microscopes hooked to computers. those researchers have let me look over their shoulder and see what they are saying is so. I for one am not interested in going back again into the dark ages of beekeeping from which many of the organic beekeepers quote from. I have got many of the same books and keep the library for the Midwestern Beekeepers assn.. I venture to say one of the largest beekeeping assn. libraries in the U.S.. When many quote from those old books I can turn to the quoted page. I am sorry but I do not get the same message as many "organic" beekeepers do. About current beekeeping treatments ( called dopes by Dee): Its kind of like saying everything on the drugstore shelf is bad for people. you can not paint the whole drugstore supply as bad. Some save lives. Does the same use of medicene go for for yourself? None of my business but curious. Thirteen years ago I had cancer. A months worth of chemo and I have been cancer free thirteen years. Sure glad I took the treatment ( or dopes)! We are all interested in your opinions but I for one do not agree with most so we will have to: "agree to disagree" Beekeeping certainly has room for the "organic" crowd just like other types of agriculture. My answer to current organic apple post: I grew organic apples for around twenty years but converted to IPM as I had worked my butt off for twenty years without showing a profit. Once changed to IPM I started to make money. I have taken many courses on growing apples organic with the most recent being a course by the organic orchardist " Michael Phillips" ( author the book " The apple Grower"). I have had good luck with organic peaches, pears, asian pears but NOT apples. Organic apples are tough to produce. Many apples sold as organic have been sprayed. No one tests the end product. The organic group in our area (which is an honest group) has a member which is so sensitive to pesticides even picking up an apple with spray can make her sick. She had to be helped from the local Whole Foods store after picking up one of their organic apples. In our area a large packer sells his heavily processed honey as "raw" in the health food stores. Our efforts did lead to the packer pulling his "local honey" stickers and adding a sign saying "local product". My point is that everything you trust as "organic" or raw in health food and especially supermarkets is not what they claim! Go to your local farmers market and buy from directly from the producer! The FDA is an underfunded agency which does little (if anything) to police label violations and the large organic corporations police theirselves. Sorry for adding apples ( posted in another post) in the this post but leaving home for a week and need to get on the road. Will answer the roar from my posts next weekend! Maybe Michael & Bill can hold back the roar. Please be kind to those guys while I am gone! Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 18:22:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: defining "artificial" In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20061021173714.02c8ae90@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike writes: Not necessarily. Dividing strong colonies in my northern location guarantees a smaller honey crop. Reply: Not necessarily. Depends upon the time of year when doing so. You do any fall divides/splits at all when flows are over with your strong/strongest colonies? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:00:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: defining "artificial" In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20061021173714.02c8ae90@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Palmer wrote: These colonies that need feed at the end of the season ..... provide bees and brood for the next seasons' splits. > One always splits/divides from the strongest to keep strong healthy bees and absorbs the weak and gets rid of them letting them go. I think the point being made here is that the colony worker resources are used to make the splits but each split is headed up with a new queen taken from the genetics of the stronger colonies. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:20:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Interesting but unknown trash removal In-Reply-To: <20061021161931.79333.qmail@web51613.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote:Possible causes for discharge of pollen. We will try to investigate the possibilities that you have offered. If I get a reply back from my buddy, will let ya'll know the results from investigating your suggested causes. Mike in LA --------------------------------- All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---