From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:30:26 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.1 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,URI_NO_WWW_ANY_CGI,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1989449096 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEr0CN013917 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:50 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0610D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 138783 Lines: 3140 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 00:33:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Re: defining artificial (organic apples) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Many on the list from Missouri know I attend many fruit grower meetings around the state to advise on beekeeping problems. About five years ago I attended a meeting in Springfield , Missouri and we toured a large apple orchard ran by a medical doctor and his wife. The doctor ( I can't recall his name but can get his name from the Missouri ext. if needed) gave an excellent talk on pesticides and apples. He quoted quite a bit of research about residual effect of most sprays. The health hazard was almost non existant for the consumer and if the apple was peeled even less. The person most likely effected long term was by far the pesticide applicator. The doctor showed us his John Deere tractor with full cab, AC and a special air intake which made the complete interior safe from the chemicals. He said it should be made manditory for all people using pesticides on apples use the equipment when spraying. Now we can split hairs over zero tollerance for sprays which is fine but most people do not want to buy an unwaxed apple with a possible worm inside. I know as I have put thousands of bushels on the compost pile. Most people do not want to pay the high price growers require to produce fruit without sprays. I do the largest farmers market in six states and know what I am talking about! My IPM methods: I use one to two sprays on my apples depending on pests. I cut spectricide with 50% water( you can always use less of a products label but never a higher amount and be legal). Spectricide label says fruit can be ate the next day after spraying ( unlike others which the label says 14 days). I spray the first spray after pedal drop. If not successful about one out of four years I do another in 10 days. I never use another spray and harvest is FIVE months later. I put up with leaf disease and cut out fire blight. I TELL all my customers what I have done. The spray used and the amount. I get usually 90% sellable apples. The above is the result of over 30 years growing apples. Happy apple growing. And by the way five months later my friend with the serious pesticide issues can hold one of my IPM apples without a problem. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 00:06:24 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: defining artificial ( organic apples) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ( except maybe Dee & Joe) Don't forget me Bob. Here let me explain why we believe what we believe. I am going to anthropomorphize a bit here, but the analogy is apt. For the next 10 years I want you to eat nothing except white bread, beans and water. Is it bad for you? No not directly, but it deprives you of necessary nutrients for proper health. Is there a LOT of nutrition in honey, well in the parts per million counter no it might not seem like much...but there is something there that the bees have been eating besides pure sugar for millions of years. Those trace elements are a necessary part of the bees diet, just as Iodine is a necessary part of the human diet for brain development and continued health despite the fact that we take it in trace quantities. Sorry but Fructose and Honey are not equivilent, those traces are important. Again if you don't think so, then try the white bread, beans and water diet and get back to me in a few years...Forget that, get back to me in a few weeks and tell me how much "pep" you have. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:38:33 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: defining "artificial"/selection In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20061021173714.02c8ae90@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I am about to 'cherry pick' a statement out of Mikes post of 10/21/06 11:45 PM and use it to illustrate another point. > These colonies that need feed at the end of the season are still > a valuable resource. They provide bees and brood for the next > seasons' splits. Their genes are removed from the pool, but the > colonies still have a place in my apiary. I see this as excellent bee management practice and have done much the same myself under UK conditions, but the point I wish to make is about selection and culling for improvement of stocks. We are always talking about 'selecting the best' and 'culling the worst' this does not mean that we 'destroy' the worst. By selecting the best we are talking about deliberately raising queens and drones only from those colonies that we wish to keep or enhance the properties of. The other side of the coin is that culling the worst is arranging not to breed from those stocks that we have marked down as unsuitable for our purposes, for instance, drone brood destruction as a varroa control method can be practised quite severely in colonies that are not intended to be bred from. There will always be a percentage of drones raised to maturity in these colonies that will become involved in matings, but this is actually helpful in maintaining diversity. In the late season you make up the nucs and use freshly raised and mated queens that have been produced by 'selected' colonies, all that gets destroyed in this process is the old queens that we were unhappy with the performance of. The bees and brood have been raised recently and thus the impact of any previous winter feeding is out of the equation. I can also make a point about the artificiality of feeding sugar or honey... Whether honey or sugar is used for winter feeding, the process is still a support measure, you cannot magically make a poor colony 'good' just by feeding it honey. But there is a place for supportive feeding in the early stages of a breeding program that seeks to naturalize bees in an area where there was originally no natural background population. In the early stages of such a program we may have quite a mixture of colony types, some colonies exhibiting genes that we consider useful to our survival strategy, but not all genes are expressed in all colonies, in such cases we need to give supplementary feeding to ensure as many colonies survive as possible so that in subsequent generations the wanted genes may become more abundant in each colony. If such supportive feeding is carried out, sucrose may be a much better option than honey as the incompletely naturalized bee stocks may be unable to cope (during winter) with honey that has been produced from the plants available in the un-colonised geographic region. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 07:47:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: defining "artificial" In-Reply-To: <20061022012250.49822.qmail@web51613.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-46F27BDE > You do any fall divides/splits at all when flows are >over with your strong/strongest colonies? No way. You may be able to do splits/divides in Arizona, after the flows are over for the year, but not up here. The latest I made nucs this year was August 15...on early Goldenrod. Even those are iffy. Some will build up ok, and some will not. I just looked at those nucs. Rating strength from one to five, at least 1/3 are twos...probably not strong enough to make it to April/May, when I consider them to have "made it" through the winter. With 6" of snow already, and often snow in April, we're talking nearly 6 months confinement. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date: 10/20/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 21:57:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: defining artificial ( organic apples) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison writes: Does the same use of medicene go for for yourself? None of my business but curious. Reply: Yes, and when Ed had his major stroke in 2003 that changed things dramatically for us and our operation, I even signed off with the hospital for no medications (yes you can do that) and I would handcarry in meals cooked by me each and every day (Yes you can do that). Since he was sent to a hospice and not expected to come out, they were quite amazed that I took him home a month later and he has been recovering ever since, now doing normal woodenware retooling, loading and unloading of trucks, driving, extracting, etc Only medications I used were old-fashioned honey, propolis and pollen the way I was taught growing up for medicinal uses from our hives, and yes, no dopes within done by us.... For if we cannot live the life, we cannot talk about what we are doing with our bees. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:11:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: defining "artificial" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We are in a desert climate of which the last seven has been declared drought conditions. In such conditions you do not have weak nucs lasting very long as anything strong around them will quickly negate them out. You learn to absorb the weak, and/or let it go. You learn to divide/split from strong colonies and with whole deep 10 frame boxes with brood, bees, honey and pollen go from there. I have no time for constant feeding of nucs in our climate. Even swarms we cutout are put into whole deep 10 frame boxes with only bees and brood they have mounted onto cutout frames and given one frame of honey on each side.From there they are on their own to live or die. This is how I was also raised, but here it is necessary for life to be strong. Yet, in nature IMPOV this coincides fine, for if you cannot live on own you just don't make it. Again, I would rather parallel nature then go opposite for long-haul. To do otherwise somehow doesn't seem right. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahaoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:17:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: defining "artificial" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Malone writes: artificial is honey bee biology produced or modified by human skill and labor, in opposition to natural. Reply: Exactly, and why the weak die in nature or are absorbed in, while the strong to on........ I see nothing wrong with long-term following of our bees with as much similarity as can be done to how they actually work and live. Good comment that artificial is in opposition to natural! Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 08:00:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Diotima Booraem Subject: Research science and the Lusby methods In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Bob, Thanks for your interesting response about the apples. I do understand the need for some sprays, -- I requested, and got, the spray schedule for Windy Ridge farms, and will send it to you offlist, if you want. They are strictly organic, but they do use some sprays that are allowed in organic practice. But on to bees.... At 08:09 PM 10/21/2006, Bob Harrison wrote: >Also painting all treatments used in beehives as "dopes" does not help in >getting the research community to look into your methods. I honestly think the onus is on the research community in this case. Dee is a successful commercial beekeeper who keeps bees without using what she likes to call "dopes". The phrasing, in my mind, should make zero difference to a research scientist. Here is someone who rebuilt an operation that was decimated by varroa during the early years of this problem (if I recall correctly -- please correct me if I am wrong, Dee) into a successful, healthy operation of over 1,000 hives using her own unique methods. Not only that, but there are other beekeepers across the country who have used her methods with great success. She is not, nor does she pretend to be, a research scientist. She is a beekeeper who makes a profit in a difficult market without using chemicals to combat the pest that has decimated many operations. If I were a research scientist in this field, I not only wouldn't care what words she used, I wouldn't care if she painted herself in purple polka dots, spoke Esperanto, and said she learned her methods from aliens who landed in her back yard. I'd still be looking for what she was doing right and why it worked -- not only for her, but for others. But, in fact, Dee is an articulate woman who has taken the time and effort to read as much of the research and literature on the subject as she can. She also takes the time to generously share her knowledge with beginners and others on her Organic Beekeeping list. While I understand that her passionate certainty can be grating to some, I still think her successes, and the successes of those who use her methods should be of great interest to research scientists. Her method is not simple -- it's not a question of small cell, up or down, but also of breeding and feeding and even frame positioning. The point is that she is successful, as are others using her methods. In my mind, a scientist should not give a rat's rear end about how Dee, or anyone, presents her method. A scientist's job is to look for the answers to questions that have been posed, and one of the primary questions that most research scientists in this field have posed to themselves and others is how to keep bees from being killed off by varroa and the concomitant diseases. Dee apparently has at least one answer to this question. Perhaps some of her pet theories will not hold up under the scrutiny of a well-designed experiment, but I have yet to see any solid research done incorporating her three-pronged (feeding, breeding, small cell) approach over the amount of time that she advocates as necessary. In closing, let me say that scientific research is not a popularity contest -- it is an investigative procedure that, ideally, ignores personalities in the quest for solid information. Dee has something that seems to work, not only for herself, but for others in a variety of different climates. I would think this would warrant considerable interest on the part of the research community. Regards, Diotima ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "If there is a better solution...find it" Thomas Edison Virtual Assistance: The better solution for small business. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Diotima Booraem, CPVA Virtual Executive Assistance http://www.virtualhelp.biz E-mail: diotima@virtualhelp.biz -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 08:44:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Howard_Kogan?= Subject: Natural vs ??? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Members; Forgive me for extending what is already getting tiried but I would like to remind everyone that the distinction between natural and artificial is an 'advertizing' issue primarily rather than a scientific issue. It is not 'natural' for honeybees to be in the US at all. But it is natural for humans to move honeybees and whatever else can be moved to where we want it. Its not right and its not wrong-its just human nature. There is not one square foot anywhere on earth that is unaffected by humans and the culture, industries, etc we have created. So I guess purists would say that there is no natural only degrees of artificial (which some on this list seem to think means 'contaminated' by human hands). For me the question when considering what actions to take is; will this promote the overall health of my bees, my family and my small corner of the earth. Often the answer is not clear but you do the best you can with the information you have. Howard Kogan-thinking that'playing God' is very human! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:45:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Research science and the Lusby methods Comments: To: Diotima Booraem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I honestly think the onus is on the research community in this case. >Dee is a successful commercial beekeeper who keeps bees without using >what she likes to call "dopes". >She is not, nor does she pretend to be, a research scientist. There is a lot of negativity toward research in the beekeeping world and much of it is justified. When viewed from the outside, it appears that scientists spend an awful lot of time and money on things that don't matter much to the rest of us. However, when non-scientists start describing what "works" and what doesn't, it is worthwhile to examine their methods. Case is point: Dee has supposedly kept bees alive without treatment for years. Why is this so? It may have to do with reducing the size of the cells, or not. It may have to do with the fact that they have been breeding from the survivors and have developed a strain of bees that can co-exist with mites. It may be that they have an isolated population that has produced inbred weakened varroa which are no longer lethal. The point is, in all of this there is no attempt to ferret out the actual cause and effect. There are no controls, no peer review, no independent verification. Just endless championing of far-fetched notions based on anecdotal evidence. Good scientists make a great effort to gather unbiased information and construct theories based on the observations. In the scientific community it is inexcusable to doctor the results to fit some preconcieved theory. And recently, a scientist has been sent to jail for it. "Poehlman oversaw a lab where nearly a dozen students and postdoctoral researchers carried out his projects. At 50, with his career in ruins and his reputation destroyed, Poehlman could only hope to avoid one final humiliation: becoming the first researcher sentenced to prison for scientific misconduct. When scientists use their skill and their intelligence and their sophistication and their position of trust to do something which puts people at risk, that is extraordinarily serious, the judge said." -- www.nytimes.com In the bee industry there is no real accountability. In 30 years I have seen the most ridiculous ideas and products presented in the bee magazines, both in articles and advertising. I have seen people spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on these ridiculous ideas and products. Buyer beware. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 19:50:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Brian_Fredericksen?= Subject: Re: Research science and the Lusby methods Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 08:00:23 -0400, Diotima Booraem wrote: >Hi Bob, > >Thanks for your interesting response about the apples. I do >understand the need for some sprays, -- I requested, and got, the >spray schedule for Windy Ridge farms, and will send it to you >offlist, if you want. They are strictly organic, but they do use some >sprays that are allowed in organic practice. The spray schedule means absolutely nothing, why not make available their balance sheet at year end? or what about the pack out numbers? May I suggest much of it went into cider, sauce, pies etc. As I said in my earlier post, my reply to the granolas is show me the operation that is making money year around (not a sideline business) that are growing certified organic apples in the USA. I am a strong supporter of organic & sustainable growing, I also need to pay my bills. In my operation certified organic does not make any economic sense. We have the largest concentration of natural food coops in the USA here in Mn. We also have one of the largest and oldest farmers markets here in Mpls. In addition our Ag program at the U/M is quite old and has produced the Honeycrisp apple and numerous other research projects. My point is we have the resources , the market and the folks interested in growing organic apples and its not happening on a large or even small scale that is economically feasible Diotima, your comments just do not reflect the harsh economic realities I see every day in my business and we have a lot more apple growers here in Mn and the upper Midwest then North Carolina. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:30:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: defining "artificial" In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20061022074142.0155f5b8@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Palmer writes: You may be able to do splits/divides in Arizona, after the flows are over for the year, but not up here. The latest I made nucs this year was August 15...on early Goldenrod. Even those are iffy. Some will build up ok, and some will not. Reply: We will do some this year in each yard if possible. In other years, in the past, we requeened out whole outfit just to see what would happen, but you only do this in good El Nino waves/years in tandem and not in mass during long droughts. But I will take the top best, which normally gives about 1 -3 per yard at a ratio of about 1 divide for every 10-15 colonies. Then depending upon the strength of parent colony I will either set down with reduced entrance on bottom board, or simply put a double division screen inbetween. With the double division screen I then have option of setting apart come spring or simply pulling out screen to recombine as they will still be scented alike vs setting down which will be scented differently. But the double screens will give advantage to the ones together (normally slightly weaker then those actually put on ground) for the new ones now on top of parent colony will then have chance to brood more thoughout winter and will normally come out increased in size come spring (but you have to leave them adequate pollen frames/honey.). Will see how things progress come bedding down come 1Nov. But I like last fall divides for then you cross over into the more dark zone for matings where yellow drones if any have been kicked out and only black are left, which can dramatically change things in ones local area mating wise. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:53:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Research science and the Lusby methods In-Reply-To: <20061022120024.MBLP2254.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net@DIODESK.virtualhelp.biz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Diotima Booraem wrote: > They are strictly organic, but they do use some sprays that are > allowed in organic practice. Please note that both organic and sprays occurs in the same sentence. This has always been a sticking point with me when organic standards are discussed. To me, organic is no spray. The sprays that are allowed are chemicals that come from plants or other "natural' sources. Some of these are actually much harsher and dangerous that commercial sprays, which was brought to my attention by my friend in the organic movement. I would not use them and do not for my apples. i read the labels. Most of the problems with my apples are cosmetic and could never be sold.. The organic movement knows that many crops and animal products need modern agricultural methods and practices to survive commercially on a large scale. Hence, there are allowable sprays, antibiotics, and other "chemicals" that are allowed but are not really organic, at least to a chemist. If the same practices used by organic apple growers were transposed to bees, there would be a hue and cry on this list about the harsh "chemicals" that were being used in the hive. I would agree in light of the fact that the chemicals are dangerous, even though they are "organic". Most organic standards are fairly loose and allow a lot of leeway, except for bees. That standard is probably the strictest, but there are ways to get around it, as I have seen in Maine. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:26:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Darwin and beekeepers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is interesting that some of the posts on selecting for traits use Darwin and "survival of the fittest" as the underpinning of their management practice. Truth is, when the beekeeper is in the selection process, they are actually playing the part of "nature" and natural selection has nothing to do with it. What is happening is that the bees we want are the bees we select for, but they may not be the bess that do best in nature. I note that bees in Arizona are trucked from location to location in order to have good forage. That certainly has nothing to do with "natural" beekeeping but is a necessary management practice. However, will those bees do well if left alone and not moved? I know that I "select" for bees that do well in my area. But I also "select" for bees that produce an excess honey crop. But the bees I discard because they do not produce well may be the best winter and Varroa survivors. I had one colony like that. From year to year it gave little honey, but survived well every year. I finally gave up on it. I decided that excess honey was more important than survival, yet I select for survival. Those bees I discard may have attributes that would be best for years that are abnormal, such as too wet or too dry and too hot or too cold. In essence, each of us is selecting for what we want, not what nature wants. Beekeeping by its nature is unnatural no matter how much we want to make it so. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:59:29 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Apple flavor... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I planted an apple tree with 5 varieties grafted on it 3 years ago. It bloomed again this spring and produced several apples. [It was very gratifying to see a few of my honeybees on the blooms.] Most of the apples fell before maturing and we harvested 2 with blemishes. We peeled the blemished skin and ate the flesh. The flavor was unsurpassed. Now I need to find organic methods to control blemishes and worms... >>I won't even get into the nutritional value or flavor of what is grown. The soils are getting more and more depleted of minerals. Commercial farmers fortify the soil with the basic 3 fertilizers but don't replenish the minerals. Every time, we go to the beach (it's a 15 minute drive for us) I bring a couple of shopping bags and collect seaweed. I work the seaweed into my garden soil. I must say the vegetables grow very nicely and the flavor is superb. Seaweed is loaded with minerals. On the other hand, I can do nothing about the mineral content in my honey. >>...but does go into the chemicals that we cannot avoid that are now in our food, air and water due to modern agricultural practices. Many plastics prevelant in our lives our bodies recognize as estrogens. Elevated levels of estrogen, regardless of the source, can cause breast cancer etc. The Japanese have a diet rich in soybeans that counter the effect of the artificial estrogens and they have a very low incidence of breast cancer. Soy beans also produce nectar for the honeybees. :) >>I am a new beekeeper -- got two packages in 2004, split them in 2005 and so now have 4. Welcome to a unique club and enjoy the fine art of beekeeping! Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:44:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Commercial success In-Reply-To: <20061021141409.ZRIP6138.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net@DIODESK.virtualhelp.biz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The recent discussion on organic apples and commercial success made me wonder how much commercial success "organic" beekeeping has had. It seems that most of the support for all things natural on this list is from small time or hobby beekeepers. I wonder how many "natural" commercial and especially migratory beekeepers there are. It would also be interesting to see if that group makes money on a commercial sustaining manner that the large migratory beekeepers enjoy. One thing that has been consistent in my observation of "organic" farmers here in Maine is they are small scale and marginal as far as their impact on the market, mostly because their product is much more expensive and labor intensive. I keep seeing new faces as the old ones disappear. Most of the successful ones go for niche markets like a specific salad green that the big guys do not bother with. Same with "organic" beekeepers. I know many who were serious and vocal advocates but who no longer keep bees. I know of no "natural" pollinators who were successful or even tried. I do know of one "organic" beekeeper who makes a living at it but he is small scale and cheats. So, all you large scale successful "organic" or "small bee" continental US commercial beekeepers, let us hear from you as to the size of your operation and your bottom line. Commercial means it is your only source of income, and it is from which you make your living. Bill Truesdell (Disclaimer- I am not not have I ever been a commercial beekeeper.) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:21:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Commercial success Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good question Bill In a related comment, I had a customer give me a container of "John Mountain" USDA organic honey ...anybody seen this yet on any shelves.? I swear it looks and tastes like melter honey, dark looking like buckwheat but tastes like roofing tar. What a joke..its some of the worst tasting honey I've ever seen on a retail shelf. No hint on the label as to what country of origin the honey came from, packed out by a regional packer in Mn. High moisture too. I guess I won't worry much about losing any sales to "organic honey" any time soon. Products like this just blur and distort the organic philosophy, what a sham. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:45:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Commercial success MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill, > I know many who were serious and vocal advocates but who no longer keep bees. > Please, I know many and all are still keeping bees. There are many more coming along, and also some that are doing quite well you have never heard from. Please Bill, name a few that are no longer keeping bees? > So, all you large scale successful "organic" or "small bee" continental US commercial beekeepers, let us hear from you as to the size of your operation and your bottom line. > Since you ask Bill, you should be the first to answer your own question. I do not even enter into your query because I am not what you would consider commercial or continental US and my focus is in breeding bees for my location and developing wintering methods, and I can not even claim success yet because it will take many, many years to do the task seeing I am pretty much doing it on my own with my limited finances. The bottom line is not always the goal in keeping bees but as my breeding succeeds I can then focus more on the bottom line which will increase as wintering percentages increase. And Bill, as much as you would like to compare and make Maine equivalent to keeping bees in Alaska, Maine still has us beat as a better environment for keeping bees with longer summers and shorter winters. And yes I agree with you that beekeeping is local and a person can not compare one method of keeping bees in one location to another's someplace else. I would hope you would answer your own question first since you asked it but I will go first. At the present time going into winter I am keeping 22 full size colonies and 44 five frame polystyrene nucs of which half I built myself and half are the BetterBee Polystyrene five frame nuc. Since my focus and product for myself is breeding and gaining queens bred in Alaska and developing better wintering methods for my unique location, my bottom line is about 40 new queens and an experiment or trial with my new nucs. Not much, I know, but it is to me a lot. Here is a URL showing my hand built nuc. http://akbkeepr.blake.prohosting.com/styronuc.htm . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 19:10:41 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Color of goldenrod and aster honeys. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A beekeeping friedn and I have been moving our hives east to a nice acrage of goldenrod plants for the past 3 years. We have also seen some asters out there. Last year we had a very nice crop of very dark brown honey and this year we had a large crop of rather light amber honey. I was wondering about the floral source. I've read goldenrod honey color is light yellow-brown. Is aster honey dark brown? Could there be another nectar source? There is a strong 'goldenrod' smell in the air even quite some distance from the hives. Thanks, Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 16:46:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Commercial success In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline > In a related comment, I had a customer give me a container of > "John Mountain" USDA organic > honey ...anybody seen this yet on any shelves.? http://www.mel-o.com/ Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 16:52:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Hexagon squeeze bottles In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline Anyone know where these are from? http://www.mel-o.com/catbigjm43000.htm Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:13:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Darwin and beekeepers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Someone wrote: >It is interesting that some of the posts on selecting for traits use >Darwin and "survival of the fittest" as the underpinning of their >management practice. It‘s good to see some are interested in this! This is a fundamental principal of whole bee beekeeping. Colonies that do not have the desired traits or are not performing at the level needed for survival and productivity are NOT propped up with treatments or feeding. Instead, their resources are reabsorbed where they can be of best use to the goals of the beekeeper. Same as natures ’survival of the fittest’ would rid these poor genetics from the breeding pool, so does the whole bee beekeeper rid these poor genetics from the breeding pool. >Truth is, when the beekeeper is in the >selection process, they are actually playing the part of >"nature" and natural selection has nothing to do with it. It is impossible totally to eliminate natures ‘survival of the fittest’ from any beekeeping operation. There is continuing pressure from nature in the form of disease, pests, enviornmential and competition form other colonies. Was natural selection not playing a role during the winter of 1995-96, when domestic colony losses (according to Camazine)ranged from 40 percent in Delaware to 53 percent in Pennsylvania to 80 percent in Maine? This was a prime example of the force of 'natural selection' affecting domestic beekeeping. “As DARWIN pointed out, ” Survival of the Fittest „ is Nature's unrelenting law, and she admits of no weakening of this principle.” (Brother Adam) Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:18:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Color of goldenrod and aster honeys. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 19:10:41 GMT, waldig@netzero.com wrote: >Is aster honey dark brown? Could there be another nectar source? I doubt it's aster. Some people up this way were puzzling over some dark brown honey, having ruled out buckwheat and japanese knotweed (which is reddish anyway). A source of dark brown honey could be a related plant called smartweed or heartsease (Polygonum spp.) pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:01:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anne Brennan Subject: Re: Commercial success In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed At 10:45 AM -0800 10/23/06, Keith Malone wrote: > Here is a URL showing my hand built nuc. >http://akbkeepr.blake.prohosting.com/styronuc.htm > This is very interesting, Keith. Thanks for posting it. The acrylic inner cover does not allow for any top ventilation, correct? I assume you find that the screened bottom board is enough to prevent any problems with moisture under this acrylic cover during the winter? Anne in PA -- -------------------------------- Anne Brennan anne.brennan@verizon.net -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 20:25:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Hexagon squeeze bottles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Try Dahl Tech in Afton, Mn, they mold various plastic honey containers and supply Mello with some of their containers http://www.dahltechplastic.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 16:59:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Anne, > http://akbkeepr.blake.prohosting.com/styronuc.htm > Yes Anne, With the acrylic inner cover there is no top ventilation just = as there is on ventilation on top with the BetterBee Polynuc, which is = why I am trialing my design of my hand made Polynuc. I am hoping that = the screened bottom will prevent what I think is poor ventilation and = poor moisture drainage with the BetterBee Polynuc. In the spring when I = examined the BetterBee Polynuc I found a pool of water in the bottom of = the nuc, I did not like this. After three years Trialing the BetterBee = Polynuc I was Finally successful wintering 2/3rds of my nucs after = feeding liberally, but still there was pooling and wet dead bees in the = bottom. I am just trying this out to see if it can make a difference or = if it might hurt results. If it helps I will advance my wintering = success to a point where wintering bees in Alaska will be a viable = option to those who kill there bees in the fall instead of planning to = winter them. I am primarily working to advance beekeeping to a point of = being more sustainable in Alaska for our small but lucrative industry.=20 . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:21:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > a pool of water in the bottom of the nuc I have had similar problems, sometimes inches deep. It can get very = nasty! Sometimes I pour the water out by tipping the nucs up in late = winter. I've always wondered where this water comes from. The folks at = Betterbee speculate it's condensation. Inches deep water in the bottom = of the nuc box is a LOT of condensation. I suspect a solution would be = to drill a hole in the bottom and screen it over, although the bees = might (probably will) propolize the screen over, as they do the screened = ventillation holes at the front top and back of the nuc boxes. = Excepting the water pool, I have had good success with the poly nuc = boxes. The 5-frame nucs can overwinter with very little protection. I = overwinter many nucs in full exposure similar to (in fact right next to) = full double deep hives in upstate New York. The pooling water is my = only complaint. I have around 60 nucs set up this year in polystyrene = boxes with expectation of less than 10% loss over winter. Hard winter, = upstate New York winter, to rival Maine, Vermont, and Alaska! =20 Aaron Morris - thinking brrrrr! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 17:51:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron, > I've always wondered where this water comes from. The folks at Betterbee speculate it's condensation. > Last winter I decided to cut inner covers for the BeeterBee Polynuc out of acrylic so I can take the top off during cold weather and not expose the colony to the weather. When I did take the top off this is what I saw. Directly above the cluster it was dry on top under the cover, but under the cover where the cluster was not located there was droplets of water. Probably from condensation and I assume these droplets would build in weight and eventually drop to the bottom. > I suspect a solution would be to drill a hole in the bottom and screen it over, > I had considered this but did not want to jeopardize the value of the solid bottom for feeding purposes. I decided to trial a screened bottom instead, I top feed with a two gallon baggy in the fall with my hand made Polynucs. > Hard winter, upstate New York winter, to rival Maine, Vermont, and Alaska! > In temperatures yes but not with duration, which I think is where the biggest difference is in some locations, can make wintering tough. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 22:47:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Nucs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Those styro nuc bodies sold by Betterbee, I believe, were originally developed by Canadian beekeeper Dave Tegert (sp?) in Alberta. Dave was showing them at Apimondia ‘99 in Vancouver. The original ones he used only had one vent hole in the front above the entrance. If I’m remembering correctly, Dave said he trucked his bees south from Alberta and overwintered them in his nucs in British Columbia. They were designed to be fed syrup by simply pumping it into the front opening. Bees then comsumed the syrup that accumulated on the floor of the nuc. I have one of those early models and did overwinter it a couple of years back as an experiment. We’ve always been told that moisture in a hive in winter is deadly for bees, but those bees did come through the winter up here just a bit above the 60th parallel. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 07:15:56 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Hexagon squeeze bottles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > http://www.mel-o.com/catbigjm43000.htm I wonder why the honey was squeezed onto the wooden honey twirler! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:04:19 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Nucs In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092108BE11A5@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron & all > I suspect a solution would be to drill a hole in the bottom > and screen it over, although the bees might (probably will) > propolize the screen over, as they do the screened ventillation > holes at the front top and back of the nuc boxes. The bees are telling you something about their requirements for ventilation, they will only rarely propolise mesh fitted into floors (bottom boards), but almost always plug up upper vents. I am not a betting man, but I will bet you a pint of Guinness (to be collected or delivered next time you visit Gormanston) that if you try out your screened holes they will only attract a very minor amount of propolis, if any. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 07:24:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This message was originally submitted by davidlcroteau@MSN.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. > -----Original Message----- > From: David Croteau [mailto:davidlcroteau@msn.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 7:06 AM > To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Nucs > > >>after feeding liberally; How do you do that? > I have seven Styrofoam nuc's, made-up Jul 16, am going to try > over winter. > Would a few 1/8" holes drilled in the bottom take care of > that puddle? > DaveL-Skowhegan,Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:49:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard A Cartwright Subject: Nucs/condensation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" <> This discussion of the problems associated with condensation during the Winter makes me wonder if the bees actually rely on some amount of condensation as a water supply. Do they need to drink water during the Winter months, or do honey reserves provide them with enough. Along these lines, is a 'perfectly' ventilated hive (i.e. no condensation)a detriment to the Wintering survivability? Any thoughts? Dick Cartwright Stony Brook, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:15:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If one is designing a better inner cover consider putting the ventilation holes off to the sides. It might reduce winter condensation from falling directly on cluster. Also the cold air would be directed away from the cluster. I realize that one should manage the colonies for NO condensation. Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 15:17:36 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Build-up speed on wax and plastic foundation. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just got the latest issue of ABJ and read with great interest Tom Seeley's article on his findings in the rate of build-up of colonies on wax vs plastic foundation. He found that the colonies on plastic drew out 30% less comb and stored about half the honey of the colonies started on wax foundation. That's a significant difference. Since these colonies were started from scratch, Tom Seeley makes a good observation that another comparison should be run of colonies set up on already drawn out frames [that have plastic and wax mid- rib]. I've been using one piece plastic frames and perhaps should reconsider my approach... Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 07:25:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Nucs/condensation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dick, > wonder if the bees actually rely on some amount of=20 condensation as a water supply. > I would think they would, especially in colder locations where they = could not get out to gather water. > Do they need to drink water during the=20 Winter months, or do honey reserves provide them with enough.=20 > >From my knowledge, bees need water to assimilate honey, so water is = necessary to help keep the cluster warm as the bees utilize honey for = energy. > is a 'perfectly' ventilated hive (i.e. no condensation)a detriment=20 to the Wintering survivability? > I do not know what you mean by perfect because I no of very little that = is perfect except God and how nature works. One thing I do know is from = my own observations with non scientific experiments up here is that bees = need more ventilation than most beekeepers would think or provide. With = my trial I am doing this winter with the two types of nucs, one being = limited on ventilation and one having a totally open screened bottom = (Which has limitations to compared to completely exposed), I hope to = determine for my own location whether or not more ventilation is better = or not with this cavity size and material of hive used. In my opinion, I = think if a beekeeper provides plenty or enough ventilation the bees will = regulate it on their own, but if not enough ventilation is provided then = the bees will have trouble regulating it, maybe not. I will see if more = is better than less this winter, only it will mean nothing to anybody = but me up here in my own unique location. The other aspect to this discussion is moisture drainage, which is what = caused the ponding in the solid bottom nuc. This may contribute to more = condensation than would normally happen if there was more ventilation = and moisture drainage. Can't say for sure yet. In the winter when I peep = under the top and look through the acrylic inner cover of both types I = will be able to see if one type has more droplets than the other or if = one is even dryer. My assumption on the matter tells me that even with = an open bottom there will be droplets under the inner cover but with an = open bottom the moisture will drain. I will see, maybe not. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:30:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Nucs/condensation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard A Cartwright wrote: > This discussion of the problems associated with condensation during the > Winter makes me wonder if the bees actually rely on some amount of > condensation as a water supply. Do they need to drink water during the > Winter months, or do honey reserves provide them with enough. Bernard Mobus, NDB and Beekeeping Adviser for Scotland, wrote a detailed series of articles titled Damp, Condensation and Ventilation in the Beekeepers Annual for 1988,89,90. I have not had time to re-read them! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 07:42:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Hexagon squeeze bottles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, > http://www.mel-o.com/catbigjm43000.htm > Looking at that container, We used to use that same container years ago = when I was cooperate owner of "Alaska Honey & Pollen, Inc" working along = side John Liska & Chuck Klicker. Many here may know and remember the = late John Liska & Chuck Klicker from the ABF National Honey Show before = they both died a few years back. They used to boast about getting Blue = ribbons, auctioning off over $200.00 a bottle Alaska Fireweed honey, = meeting all the Honey Princesses, and seeing all the beekeepers who come = to the show. I miss John & Chuck, they were my foundation to better = beekeeping and they encouraged me to always learn.=20 Getting back to this container, I can't remember where exactly we got = that container but I do think it was from a Beekeeping Supply Company = here in the USA. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 15:52:18 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Nucs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Directly above the cluster it was dry on top under the cover, but under the cover where the cluster was not located there was droplets of water. Probably from condensation... I use wooden nucs - I believe wood is just fine for overwintering although styrofoam nucs seem to facilitate a quicker spring build-up [which may or may not be desireable in certain climates - that I set up with flat masonite inner covers with a 1 in. diameter hole at the front end. I place a newspaper on top of the inner cover and a short 1/4" stick in between at the front to create a ventilation channel. This set-up keeps the frames and bees fairly dry in our humid climate. The key to good overwintering is to provide slow ventilation that will eliminate most of the humidity BUT not create drafts. I close up the ventilation holes sometime in March when brood rearing is under way. The nucs don't get wet when brood rearing is underway and the sun occasionally warming up the nuc walls allows bees to walk through out the hive. The bees collect the extra moisture to dilute stored honey to feed to the larvae. I read a study that found that providing water in the hive in the late winter/ early spring is better for building up than feeding thin syrup [provided there is no shortage of stored honey]. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:05:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Research science and the Lusby methods In-Reply-To: <453CC95B.4030105@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell writes: Most organic standards are fairly loose and allow a lot of leeway, except for bees. That standard is probably the strictest, but there are ways to get around it, as I have seen in Maine. Reply: Since I have pushed for zero tolerance for all treatments for honeybees for years since the beginning and have stated many times that if we can do it, and do it commercially, then there is no excuse for others not being able to do it, perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to why others would want to get around tight standards where human health is concerned, since you have come right out and stated: "There are way to get around it". You talked big on the apples thread here for all the so-called natural treatments being bad and worse then conventional treatments, which IMPOV they certainly are....but this would be true also in beekeeping for the maintenance of the health of our colonies also, and future contamination problems....... So why are beekeepers in your area then working with "ways of getting around this" to put dopes/treatments into their colonies? Especially since the way you write it, it would seem like knowingly doing so........even though in practice it would be wrong? Just what is wrong with wanting a clean sustainable beekeeping system for healthy bees and/or any other livestock or agricultural product produced for that matter? Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://group.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:45:09 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Nucs In-Reply-To: <20061024.085221.8480.861848@webmail35.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I do know that ventilation in winter is just as important as in the summer, but for different reasons. Condensation within a hive is detrimental when the water "rains" down on the bees. I don't know how many people have noticed but water can and does evaporate directly from ice to gas. In the coldest of winters when the sheets of ice are coating the parking lots and untouched stretches of pavement slowly disappate even when the temps are -35F. Without ventilation in the hive, the condensation AND ice that may build up on the inside has no way to be vented out, but is captured at the roof since it is warmer than the air below it because of heating by the bees. I know water condenses from hot to cold, but heat rises and retained humidity cannot escape without proper ventilation. There are some beekeepers in the far north I know who use bottomless hives or screened bottom boards and report they have had better overwintering success because of the ventilation afforded. The bees retain the heat because heat rises and remains traped, but the free flowing very dry air below can draw the humidity out of the air the same way that ice magically disappates in sub-zero weather without seeming to melt first. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:30:01 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Re: Water in polynucs. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Concerning water in the bottom of polynucs, about 35 years ago when experimenting with polystyrene chilibins (picnic-type boxes for keeping food - and beer -cool on hot days) as nest sites for bumble bees, we had the same problem. The lids were press-in, much like a lid on a can of paint, and were so tight that they looked as if they should have been rain-proof. However, when placed in a domestic shower for 5-10 minutes, water accumulated inside to an inch or more. It appeared that despite the apparently tight fit of the lid, water was somehow getting through between the lid and the upper edge of the box. We surmised that water may have been pulled in by surface tension. The answer was to fit a lid that overlapped around the edges, just like conventional hive lids. Regards, Barry Donovan, New Zealand. Visit our website at http://www.crop.cri.nz ______________________________________________________ CAUTION: The information contained in this email is privileged and confidential. If you read this message and you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of all or part of the contents is prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. Any opinions or views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not represent those of their employer. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:43:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Nucs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Writes: >...Directly above the cluster it was dry on top under the cover, but under the cover where the cluster was not located there was droplets of water. Probably from condensation and I assume these droplets would build in weight and eventually drop to the bottom. -----> Hi Keith, I’m thinking that the Acrylic inner cover top may be contributing to your condensation problem, I have had the same condensation occurring with some homemade equipment that had smooth surfaces facing the inside of the hive. It seems nucleation and growth of condensate nuclei on smooth surfaces such as the Acrylic inner cover, can occur more rapidly by both the direct addition of molecules from the vapor and from those adsorbed directly onto the surface. I have seen some very interesting propolising patterns on inner covers of mine that had the smooth side facing in towards the nest. The bees covered the entire top side of these types of inner covers with propolis, as if tarring a roof to stop a leak. >From the pic, (if I am seeing it right), you have the Acrylic inner cover is extended out to the edge, exposing it directly to the cool air. This might chill the Acrylic inner cover causing more condensation to occur on the Acrylic near the cracks where cool are is penetrating. Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:10:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, > From the pic, (if I am seeing it right), you have the Acrylic inner cover is extended out to the edge, exposing it directly to the cool air. > Not to doubt you, but The acrylic inner cover I made for the BetterBee nucs are covered completely by the cover that extends over the edge even protecting the inner cover from weather. This is where I first saw the droplets on the inner cover, Not yet this year has there been a chance to see it on my hand made nucs, they have not gone through winter yet. I really do not think what you describe might be the reason for the droplets is the reason. I will know more this winter after January, 01, 2007. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:10:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Re: Nucs MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Cushman" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 3:04 AM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Nucs > Hi Aaron & all > > > I suspect a solution would be to drill a hole in the bottom > > and screen it over, although the bees might (probably will) > > propolize the screen over, as they do the screened ventillation > > holes at the front top and back of the nuc boxes. I have a number of made up nuc boxes with partial screened bottoms such that have not presented any significant propolization. Alden M. Hudson, NH -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:04:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Nucs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Malone wrote: .I really do not think what you >describe might be the reason for the droplets is the reason. I will know more this winter after January, 01, 2007. You also describe droplets of water forming on the acrylic ‘around the cluster‘, but ‘not directly above it’. The rising moist air is not condensing on the acrylic until it reaches the part of the acrylic that is cooler located outside the cluster. In my observations of production colonies that had roofs with smooth surface facing inward, I was quite surprised how big of an affect surface properties had on the formation of condensation. I found that the smooth surface caused about a cup of water to acuminate on the top of the inner cover each night, and the rough surface lids had minimal condensation. Perhaps wintering some with acrylic inner covers and some without will tell. Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 08:56:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Build-up speed on wax and plastic foundation. In-Reply-To: <20061024.081816.8480.861507@webmail35.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:17 AM 10/24/2006, you wrote: >He found that the colonies on plastic >drew out 30% less comb and stored about half the honey of the >colonies started on wax foundation. I have found that if you coat the plastic foundation with a relatively thick coat of wax they are drawn out quicker than when left with just the very thin coating of wax applied at the factory. The bees appear to actually use this extra wax to start forming the cell walls. I suspect the same may be happening with the wax foundation. I have not tested it side by side, but I would hypothesize that given a thick enough coat of wax, the plastic foundation may have the same yield, if not greater, than the wax foundation. Maybe the pierco people would give me a small grant to do a study to redeem their product : ) -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:13:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Commercial success In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian writes: "John Mountain" USDA organic honey Reply: Can you give name of who the regional packer is and location? Any more information on the product itself for either domestic or import? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:30:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline 'Way back when', I did a fair amount of work with Bob Stevens (Owner of Betterbee) in developing the Bee Max styro hive. Frankly, it was a pretty straight knock-off of one then being made in Finland. I was very concerned about it being 'too tight' and therefore causing too much condensation during the winter. I never did get an answer from the Finns concerning condensation, but they talked around the subject a great deal and ended up saying 'condensation is not a problem'. Since, I have often wondered if the reason their standard configuration included a bottom board with a screened insert was to (1) constantly introduce cold dry air to balance with the warm air from the bees respiration, and (2) drain any excess moisture that did accumulate. Bob subsequently developed the styro nuc without my input. As someone suggested, it was a knock off of one from Western Canada and the design was brought to Bob by the styro manufacturer. When I saw it I questioned Bob about excess condensation and, roughly, he said (1) the guy in Western Canada hasn't had any problems with excess condensation and (2) the guy in Canada wanted the solid bottom for feeding. Well...I have had just three of these nuc boxes. I consider them superb for establishing spring nucs and wish I could afford to replace my 75+ wood nuc boxes with them. But in this climate I have to think that using them to overwinter without some kind of top ventilation would result in the loss of most of the nucs. Besides, I have little difficulty over-wintering 5 frames nucs in my drafty wood boxes. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:57:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Law Subject: Secrets of the honey bee revealed in genome code MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Scientists have unraveled the genetic code of the honey bee, uncovering clues about its complex social behavior, heightened sense of smell and African origins. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061025/sc_nm/science_honeybee_dc -- Dennis Law ( aka Paul D. Law ) Brooklyn South Community Emergency Response Team Logistics Section -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 15:39:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Secrets of the honey bee revealed in genome code Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for the link. Pretty funny! > With its highly evolved social structure of tens of thousands of worker bees commanded by Queen Elizabeth, the honey bee genome could also improve the search for genes linked to social behavior. ... Queen Elizabeth has 10 times the lifespan of workers and lays up to 2,000 eggs a day. LONDON (Reuters) pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 16:07:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Commercial success In-Reply-To: <20061025161324.13760.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Brian writes: > "John Mountain" USDA organic honey > http://www.mel-o.com/MeloHoney.htm They appear to be packers not beekeepers and please note that they get some of their honey from foreign sources. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 13:54:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, > Perhaps wintering some with acrylic inner covers and some without will = tell. =20 > I have already done that with the BetterBee nuc, water either way. I have not done this with the hand made ones as I have already = previously mentioned, and as I have previously mentioned I have only = wintered one year with acrylic on the BetterBee nuc but I have used the = and wintered with them several years. The first years I used them was = without the acrylic cover and there was water ponding. It was this that = inspired me to build the hand made Polynuc. For whatever reason water = condensates and this results in water dripping down to collect in the = bottom. I believe that the water ponding in the bottom can only = compounds the condensation, whether or not this is essentially a problem = or not. At this point I do not care how the water gets there so I am = thinking the screened bottom will allow the water to drain and this will = hopefully help alleviate compounding condensation. I do like the fact = that I was finally able to successfully winter nucs using a Polystyrene = nuc, I would just like to improve results even further with them. I have = thought of maybe building a telescoping wooden insulated top but will = wait until I see the result of the simple changes I made. The BetterBee = nuc already proved that it works, I just want a little better results. I = really like using the acrylic inner cover because it comes off with ease = and allows me to do quick hive welfare checks without removing their = cover in colder weather. I have not had any trouble with them getting = burr comb built under them and I attribute this to have good top bee = space tolerances. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:08:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Color of goldenrod and aster honeys. In-Reply-To: <20061023.121142.17501.1087884@webmail28.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I quite often find my fall honey crop to be as light or almost as light as my summer honey. The 2005 fall crop was darker and didn't taste quite like goldenrod to me. I sent a sample to a friend who IDed it as bamboo. Maybe that is what you have there. Mark "waldig@netzero.com" wrote: I was wondering about the floral source. I've read goldenrod honey color is light yellow-brown. Is aster honey dark brown? Could there be another nectar source? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:50:13 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: PO Gustafsson Subject: nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > From: Lloyd Spear > 'Way back when', I did a fair amount of work with Bob Stevens (Owner of > Betterbee) in developing the Bee Max styro hive. Frankly, it was a pretty > straight knock-off of one then being made in Finland. I was very concerned > about it being 'too tight' and therefore causing too much condensation > during the winter. Well they were actually first made in Germany, I think in end of the 70s. Then copied in Sweden, the oldest I got is from 82. Finns then copied from us. There has always been a large vent hole in the bottom board during winter. Plastic hives need it. With wooden hives you get a movement of water through the walls that helps move moisture out, plastic doesn't allow any transport of water through it and thus need a better ventilation system. We never use top vent, as it is much simpler to have the bottom vent and never need to worry about it or use any extra gear for winter. I personally never use inner covers either, just the plastic hive lid and let bees propolis it tight. The fewer bits and pieces you need to carry around, the better... -- Regards P-O Gustafsson pogust@gmail.com http://beeman.se -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 22:47:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Betsy Klinger Subject: Re: Color of goldenrod and aster honeys. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark wrote: Mark, in the northeastern part of the US what people refer to as "bamboo honey" is honey with a main floral source of Japanese Knotwood, an invasive species related to buckwheat. The honey is dark and similar to buckwheat honey but not as strong. Is that what your friend ID'd the honey as? Was the ID from a pollen sample or by taste? Betsy, a hobbyist in Maryland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:44:14 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Color of goldenrod and aster honeys. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I quite often find my fall honey crop to be as light or almost as light as my summer honey. ...sent sample to a friend who IDed it as bamboo. Interesting, I did not notice Japanese knotweed (bamboo) where we move the hives to but there may be scattered pockets. I loved the color and flavor. It had a hint of this year's goldenrod honey with some additional tones. By the way, what's the shape of the hive inspection service upstate NY? As you know, we don't have an inspector down state on Long Island. I find the requirement for any inspector not to own any hives strange. By keeping my own hives, I can have a meaningful conversation with other area beekeepers about what's going on this season. It's easy to get out of touch if you don't go through your own hives. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:52:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Law Subject: Oldest bee fossil ever MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "*Melittosphex burmensis,* which has been trapped in amber for the past hundred million years, is the oldest bee fossil ever discovered." http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/10/061025-oldest-bee.html -- Dennis Law ( aka Paul D. Law ) Brooklyn South Community Emergency Response Team Logistics Section -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:41:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Color of goldenrod and aster honeys. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit waldig wrote: >I find the requirement for any inspector not to own any hives >strange. Well, there are pros and cons. But let me ask you, would you take your car to get it inspected by someone who buys and sells used cars? What would you think if he told you it was a hopeless wreck -- and then tried to sell you another? Trust is a very important thing. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:15:38 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Color of goldenrod and aster honeys. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Peter Borst wrote: Well, there are pros and cons. But let me ask you, would you take your car to get it inspected by someone who buys and sells used cars? >>>mmm, i think a better analogy would be, "would you take your car to get it inspected by someone who is not allowed to own a car?" ...keeping bees is not the same thing as selling hives and equipment. i wouldn't trust a vet to treat my dog if he/she didn't have a dog...and i wouldn't trust the advice of a bee inspector that doesn't keep bees. deknow -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:54:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Color of goldenrod and aster honeys. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit deknow wrote: I wouldn't trust the advice of a bee inspector that doesn't keep bees. Hmm. Well, to put it in perspective, most of the current inspectors have worked as employees of commercial beekeepers, some for over 30 years. I personally know of one who worked in a bee supply factory from 1975 to 1980; in 1982 he worked for one of the biggest queen breeders in California; during the 1980s he owned nearly 500 hives and harvested 40,000# of honey, 4000# of bee pollen, and 1000s of queen cells each year until he sold out in 1990. Then he worked at one of the most famous bee labs in the world for some 6 years. As an inspector, he found over 100 cases of AFB this summer. Would you trust him, even though he doesn't own any bees these days? pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 21:31:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Color of goldenrod and aster honeys. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As in anything, there are exceptions to every rule. Most inspectors are not 60 years old or older. If a person has been in the bee keeping business or just a hobby, they are more than apt to still own bees. Lionel -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 02:55:36 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Color of goldenrod and aster honeys. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit well, i wouldn't decide to "trust" someone or not by reading their resume...but to play along here, i want a bee inspector who wants to have bees, not a job. all that stuff might be impressive (or it might not, as he may have missed 300 cases of ahb as well). i'm much more "impressed" with having 500 hives and getting the good harvest than i am with "worked for queen breeder" or even at a lab....being an employee is very differant than having the final say (and responsibility). ...if said bee inspector doesn't own bees _because_ he isn't allowed to if he is to be a bee inspector, i think that's a shame...and if he doesn't have bees because he doesn't want them, but he wants the job as a bee inspector because he is "qualified", that also seems like a shame...it costs no more to pay someome who is passionate about what they do (and there are plenty of knowledgable passonate beekeepers out there), and in my mind, someone who is passonate is more likely to do a good job. -- Peter Borst wrote: Would you trust him, even though he doesn't own any bees these days? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:23:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Saor Stetler Subject: Pollinators Help One-Third Of World Crop Production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pollinators Help One-Third Of World Crop Production Honey bees (pictured), particularly ones in the wild versus those in managed hives, are negatively impacted by habitat loss and a variety of non-sustainable farming practices. by Sarah Yang Berkeley CA (SPX) Oct 27, 2006 Pollinators such as bees, birds and bats affect 35 percent of the world's crop production , increasing the output of 87 of the leading food crops worldwide, finds a new study published in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences and co-authored by a conservation biologist at the University of California, Berkeley. The study is the first global estimate of crop production that is reliant upon animal pollination. It comes one week after a National Research Council (NRC) report detailed the troubling decline in populations of key North American pollinators, which help spread the pollen needed for fertilization of such crops as fruits, vegetables, nuts, spices and oilseed. Of particular concern in the NRC report was the decline of the honey bee, a species introduced from Europe and a critical pollinator for California's almond industry. The report pointed out that it takes about 1.4 million colonies of honey bees to pollinate 550,000 acres of this state's almond trees. In an effort to better understand how dependent crop production is upon pollinators worldwide, an international research team led by Alexandra-Maria Klein, an agroecologist from the University of Goettingen in Germany, conducted an extensive review of scientific studies from 200 countries and for 115 of the leading global crops. Claire Kremen, an assistant professor at UC Berkeley's Department of Environmental Science , Policy, and Management, is co-author of this new study. "There's a widely stated phrase in agriculture that you can thank a pollinator for one out of three bites of food you eat," said Kremen, who is also a member of the Committee on Status of Pollinators that produced the NRC report and leader of a group at the National Center for Ecological and Analysis and Synthesis that co-sponsored the work. "However, it wasn't clear where that calculation came from, so we set out to do a more thorough and reproducible estimate, and we wanted to look at the impact on a global scale." What the researchers found fell in line with the dictum to which Kremen referred. Out of the 115 crops studied, 87 depend to some degree upon animal pollination, accounting for one-third of crop production globally. Of those crops, 13 are entirely reliant upon animal pollinators, 30 are greatly dependent and 27 are moderately dependent. The crops that did not rely upon animal pollination were mainly staple crops such as wheat, corn and rice. The NRC report notes that honey bees in North America have been decimated by infestations of parasitic mites that were inadvertently introduced to the United States. In addition, honey bees are battling antibiotic-resistant pathogens and competition from Africanized honey bees. Kremen added that honey bees, particularly ones in the wild versus those in managed hives, are negatively impacted by habitat loss and a variety of non-sustainable farming practices. These impacts also affect native species of wild bees. There are 4,000 species of native bees in North America alone. "We've replaced pollination services formerly provided by diverse groups of wild bees with domesticated honey bees," said Kremen, who recently co-authored another study showing that wild bees interacting with honey bees can lead to a five-fold increase in pollination efficiency. "The problem is, if we don't protect the wild pollinators, we don't have a backup plan." Kremen suggested an approach to a more sustainable form of agriculture, one that de-emphasizes the use of synthetic fertilizers and builds in more of a reliance on natural ecosystems. Some changes may involve mere tweaks to current practices, such as allowing weeds and native plants to grow and prosper along the border of the primary crop, she said. Such non-crop plants, which are currently killed off by herbicides, can sustain a variety of wild bee species when the primary crops are not in bloom. Another change could be to switch from flood irrigation, which drowns bee species that nest in the ground, to spray irrigation when feasible, said Kremen. The study in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B highlights what is at stake if steps to improve pollinator biodiversity are not taken. "Passion fruits in Brazil are hand-pollinated through expensive day-laborers as the natural pollinators, carpenter bees, are hardly available because of high insecticide use in the agricultural fields and the destruction of the natural habitats," said lead author Klein. Klein said that in the cities of Brazil, the high prices for fruits and vegetables are pushing people to turn to less healthy alternatives, including fatty meats and sugar products. As a result, she said, obesity rates seem to be rising. "The stability of crop yields not only depends on pollination, but also on further ecosystem services," Klein added. "Therefore, we need landscapes carefully managed for a diversity of functionally important groups of organisms that sustain many important ecosystem services such as pollination, pest, pathogen and weed control, and decomposition." This study was also supported by the Sixth European Union Framework program. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:47:27 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Color of goldenrod and aster honeys. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>As an inspector, he found over 100 cases of AFB this summer. Would you trust him, even though he doesn't own any bees these days? I just feel that, with the plethera of pests coming from all sides, an inspector with current hands-on experience will better advise beekeepers. I have always looked to my inspector to share information on latest developments. Overall, a good inspector doesn't need to won beehives but inspectors with bee hives should not be excluded. The shortage of inspectors in NY state has gotten even worse. My 2c. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:56:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: NYS Bee Inspectors (formerly, Color of Aster and Goldenrod Honey) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Earlier this year there was a lot of discussion on another list (Bee Source), and some discussion on this list, concerning whether 'commercial' beekeepers should also be permitted to be inspectors. The issue was whether the inherent conflicts of interest overcame the obvious benefits of their experience. A few or several beekeepers in upstate NY, where most of the honey is produced, told horror stories of such conflicts. I do not recall any such instances in the Long Island area. My understanding is that the NYS Ethics Commission was informed of a contemporaneous conflict by a beekeeper who had an unsatisfactory experience with an inspector who was also a commercial beekeeper. After consideration the NYS Ethics Commission ruled that hence no inspectors could be commercial beekeepers. "My understanding" is heresy so may not be accurate. I do not know the definition of 'commercial beekeeper'. Few matters are ever black and white and this is one that is not. While we have lost valuable knowledge, some beekeepers will benefit. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:08:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: mite drop Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 14:46:15 -0400, Randy Oliver wrote: >I'm still looking for any published study that has a continuous record of >natural mite drop daily or weekly for an entire season without treatment. >Can anyone help? I don't know of any studies, but I've been thinking I could probably run the experiment. I've got about 40 hives at my home yard I could count regularly. Is there anyone that would want to get involved with me in it? Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:25:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: NYS Bee Inspectors (formerly, Color of Aster and Goldenrod Honey) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was never given a written notice of Ag & MKts policy regarding Apiary Inspectors and owning bees. I was told over the phone, by a person in Human Resources, that as long as I owned bees (1 or more colony), I was not employable because of the conflict of interest that that would constitute. The NYS Ethics Commission supplied the Ethics Officer of AG & MKTS with examples of ruling on other conflict of interest situations that are in some ways similar to Apiary Inspectors owning bees. The NYS Ethics Commission did not make a Ruling, they left that to the AG & MKTS Ethic Office. I asked the Ethics Officer from Ag & Mkts if this whole thing came about because of a complaint and he said , "No." I asked him if it came from internal review of policy or something like that and he said, "No." So I still don't know from whence this came. I do know that Apiary Inspectors owning bees has been the norm since the begining of the program and other states have laws governing such. I pointed this out to the Commissioner and Deputy Commissioner. I also know that bob Mungari fought to keep us employed I was told that if I gave up my beekeeping business and returned to work there would be a job for Senior Apiary Inspectors through the winter. It was also stated that this was dependent on the State Apiarst Position being funded and filled. Don't hold your breath. I held mine for 20 years. Lloyd, I heard the same rumors. But who should I trust? The Ethics Officer or hearsay? Mark Lloyd Spear wrote: My understanding is that the NYS Ethics Commission was informed of a contemporaneous conflict by a beekeeper who had an unsatisfactory experience with an inspector who was also a commercial beekeeper. After consideration the NYS Ethics Commission ruled that hence no inspectors could be commercial beekeepers. --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:31:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anne Brennan Subject: Re: mite drop In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed >At 2:08 PM -0400 10/27/06, Eric Brown wrote: > >I don't know of any studies, but I've been thinking I could probably run >the experiment. I've got about 40 hives at my home yard I could count >regularly. Is there anyone that would want to get involved with me in it? Eric, I think it would be great to generate a collection of such data from a number of beekeepers. I only have one hive (first year beekeeper here) but I recently started recording weekly mite drop data for this hive so that I can look back in future years to see what was going on. I plan to have a couple more hives next year so I could contribute data for these to a larger data pool. Do weather conditions affect the mite drop numbers at all? Since the bees' activity level changes with the weather -- more bees staying in the hive on cool, cloudy days -- I've been wondering whether this is a factor. Perhaps any effort to track mite drop data should include a few other observations such as high temperature for that 24-hour period. I suppose all participants in such a group effort should use as similar a method as possible for counting the mites; I use a corrugated plastic board coated with vaseline placed under the screened bottom board from approx. 5pm one day to 5 pm the next, depending when I get home from work. I count the mites by scraping the board with my hive tool and counting the mites as I scrape them off. In doing so, I scrape off most of the vaseline but usually don't re-coat the board every time. I've also wondered if this variability in "stickiness" affects the number of mites that remain on the board. What are the particulars of your mite-counting method? Anne -- -------------------------------- Anne Brennan anne.brennan@verizon.net -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:19:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: NYS Bee Inspectors (formerly, Color of Aster and Goldenrod Honey) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > After consideration the NYS Ethics Commission ruled that hence no inspectors could be commercial beekeepers. No, it's not about commercial or not. They decided to be an inspector, you can't own any bees or work in the bee industry. Not even during the six month's when you aren't working for the state. They even went so far as to elicit promises that the inspectors wouldn't work with bees for two years after leaving the inspection service. Not very many people were willing or able to comply with such a strict ruling. Most people I know agree that there should be a threshold. I think it's 50 in Maine; to me that seems fair. That certainly would broaden the pool and bring in some qualified people. It should be kept in mind that just "owning bees" hardly makes you good beekeeper expert, any more than owning a car makes you a good mechanic. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:52:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Color of goldenrod and aster honeys. In-Reply-To: <20061026.195607.757.438263@webmail37.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Peter Borst wrote: Would you trust him, even though he doesn't own any bees these days? Reply: Though I read this and other here, with my mind on other things, I need to reply in a way having been through a few fights with inspection due to commercial (actively keeping bees commercially) while working on side inspecting neighboring commercial operations, with each doing things differently for control of problems, and each with bees in same county, and wanting more locations to be short. This is where the main problems occur and heads butt. It's not the new beekeeper getting instruction which is badly needed. It is the butting of heads for lack of other words in how to correct the problem professionally and hence clashes occur. Even with newer beekeepers then 5-10 years into beekeeping taught one method and then having another told to him to mandatorily do to correct a problem in direct confict to way they were shown by another. For some reason it can start clan fights and local hardships that can at times get going. Yet if both followed being different paths to correcting....problem would be solved and solution arrived at....be it a bee pest, predator, or secondary disease. Treatment routes do vary considerably.....FWIW. I know, for we have gone done the none treatment path to correcting problems while just doing simple colony manipulation changes to solve what has hurt us. Yet others, burn, kill and do other things to our poor bees. Will say no more on subject matter. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 15:15:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: My husband Edward W. Luslby MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all: It is with deep sadness that I now write this email as I am having problems thinking as I type. My husband Edward W. Lusby to my great sadness died this Wed 25 Oct 06 in the afternoon and I have had much to go though, and will have much more as I now get with the Rev Rick Lewis, in putting together a memorial service for him on, I believe 4 November, at around 2PM in afternoon, up here in the hills of Arivaca (small town) about 12 miles from where we now live in the little uncorporated town of Moyza. As word is leaking out and calls are coming in and I am trying to keep my head straight it is hard, but I know that my Ed would want me to go on with the bees, and I am going to try to do so with the bees, as I think he would have wanted to bring things thru to closure for what we have been doing for close to 23 years now., were shoe on other foot. I have already been told they don't delive flowers from town, unless in group deliveries, as so far up in hills away from nearest cities of Tucson and Green Valley, but I will get back with address for memorial for those that might want it living nearby. For those wanting address for cards I am simply giving our mailing address: Address: HC 65 Box 7450 Amado, Arizona 85645 I am sorry to write this but I feel you all need to know what is going on. Many already know Ed had a major stroke back in June 2003 that he was recovering from... I don't know what else to say for now, I am just taking it one day at a time. Only thing that really gets me is now that we got our bees back and 4-5 deep after all these years and then this happens...Just don't know what to say. Thank you for patience with me. Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited (http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:47:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: mite drop [collection methods] In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Anne Brennan wrote:I scrape off most of the vaseline but usually don't re-coat the board every time. Might place the scrapings in a coffee filter, place the filter in the top part of a jar, and microwave at a low setting. This would allow the vaseline to drain into the bottom of the jar for reuse, and would collect all the mites on the filter. As you pick them off you have an accurate count and can use the filter again. Just a thought, few as those are. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited Try it today. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:37:14 -0400 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: My husband Edward W. Luslby In-Reply-To: <20061027221522.73713.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm so sorry for your loss, Dee. I cannot imagine your loss, and hope you will persevere. I offer this folk poem: Honey bees! Honey bees, hear what I say Your master has passed away But his wife now begs you will freely stay And still gather honey for many a day Regards, Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 22:45:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: My husband Edward W. Luslby Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee, Sorry for your loss! Sincerely, Bob Harrison "None of us can predict the hour of our death so we should not fear death" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 08:08:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: NYS Bee Inspectors (formerly, Color of Aster and Goldenrod Honey) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-710061D2 > I think it's 50 >in Maine; 50 in Vermont too, Peter. Mike -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date: 10/20/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:23:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe carson Subject: Re: Nucs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed "I have thought of maybe building a telescoping wooden insulated top but will wait until I see the result of the simple changes I made." Keith: I have tried and use the insulated telescoping top and it works fine. Tried two winters now and on it's third. Checked them today and they downed a gallon of sugar water in 5 days. Tried with and without the vitamins and electrolytes and with the Honey Bee Healthy. Twice the consumption with the additives as without. Very Strong hive! I have others in a row that do not have the same top as a test for this winter in the bus. Installed the Kona Queens today as well. Another test is fall/winter requeening. Half the hives are poly and half wood. Also two insulated wood hives. Dr. Joe Carson Alaska Heavenly Honey _________________________________________________________________ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 07:18:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bman140 Subject: Re: My husband Edward W. Luslby In-Reply-To: <20061027221522.73713.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Dee..I am so sorry for your loss..The bee world has lost one of its great assets but yet not as great a loss as your's and only you can know it's value..As most of us cannot be with you in body, we will all be with you in spirit and keep you in our prayers in this most difficult time..May your bees watch over you in your time of need as you so diligently do for them.. With Deepest Sympathy, bman140 --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 07:29:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joe C., > Keith: I have tried and use the insulated telescoping top and it = works=20 fine. Tried two winters now and on it's third.=20 > I was replying as it relates to the hand made Polynucs and response to = Joe W. concerns with the acrylic inner cover I use on the Polynucs I = constructed. The covers on my Polynucs are already insulation seeing = they are simply a piece of high density 2" insulfoam board. There was a = concern that the acrylic would get cold because of the edges being = exposed under the top board cover to the weather. I really do not think = the acrylic will be affected as Joe W. thinks they will be under the = insulation boards and with the heat of the cluster keeping the underside = of the acrylic warm with the heat of the cluster rising.=20 Since the subject or thread is nucs here then are these hives you are = writing about here nucs or full-size colonies in one, two, or three = story units. > I have others=20 in a row that do not have the same top as a test for this winter in the = bus. > I have noticed with other beekeepers doing inside wintering that there = is a tremendous amount of extra and heavy work involved in doing this = and there is a whole set of problems that arise from locating them = inside and then transferring them outside again in the spring, or are = you going to keep them continuously inside? That in itself can also have = its difficulties, so how will you handle these colonies located inside = this bus? > Installed the Kona Queens today as well. Another test is fall/winter = requeening. > How are you doing this as temperatures are very low here in Alaska at = this time and brooding at this time should be shut down at this time of = season if a colony is to be expected to winter without using up much = needed stores of honey and pollen. I would think that requeening up here = should have been done in our Alaskan fall which occurs much earlier than = it does in the lower 48 states. When I requeen a colony I usually do it = during a period that colonies would be doing it on there own up here = which is during the swarm season, but I do breeding and requeen with my = Alaskan genetics so the genetics will be from colonies that have = wintered well previously. It would seem to me that it is much to late to = requeen at this time, how are you performing this task at this late date = in our Alaska weather? I do pray you well with doing this and look = forward to hearing more about this.=20 . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 18:37:15 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron & Eefje Subject: Re: My husband Edward W. Luslby MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee, My condolances for the loss of your companion! Yes I remember from your earlier reports in beekeeping groups that Ed had a stroke before, it was in that period that I started up beekeeping. I surely hope that you can continue with beekeeping in the direction that Ed and you had so clearly chosen, even if you perhaps would have to adjust the pace a little. All the best! Ron van Mierlo Sweden > Hi all: > It is with deep sadness that I now write this email as I am > having problems thinking as I type.......................... -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 14:06:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: My husband Edward W. Luslby MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can only say how sorry I am; I know how devastating you found his stroke, and this must be even worse. My thoughts are with you. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 15:56:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe carson Subject: Re: Nucs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed You are right that this is late. Too late but it is a test. The truth is that I have been way to busy and I thought better to test than wait another year. I will know if late fall/early winter is possible. I will leave them in the bus all year. The only problem I have read about is the potential for bacteria. I found pics of German wagons with bee in them (circa 1880's) all year and moved throughout the year. There were holes of various sizes and shapes on the outside of the wagon where the bees entered. I hope to do the same on the bus. As to nucs or full size, there are both. I hope to see positive results from both. The hives have no wind or snow on them so they are extremely active and downing the sugar water. Obviously a critical time. Honey stores are slim so hoping to see the sugar water carry them through. Carrying them into the bus was a bit of work and a bit exciting as well. I have steps now so no real crisis in the transferring. I now of a bus for sale cheap with a wheelchair lift that works well. That would be an ideal way to wheel the hive over and then just raise to bus floor level. I am going to try to devise a secure system to secure them to the floor should I move the bus to a field of fireweed. I do not want to be driving and have 30 hives, three stories high fall over. Would be a sight to be pulled over by the Troopers. As this is a Nuc thread I will humbly depart. Dr. Joe Carson _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch with old friends and meet new ones with Windows Live Spaces http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---