From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:31:00 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.8 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SOMETHING_FOR_ADULTS,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E49549098 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEr0CP013917 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:50 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0611A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 126137 Lines: 2976 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 08:56:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: disappearing Email MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I have an unusual request Someone recently sent me a .pdf document about a presentation, the title of which was... "Using The 50% Formic Acid Fumigator To Control Varroa Mites In Florida, 2006.Jim Amrine, WV U, Morgantown, WV Bob Noel, Cumberland, MD David Webb, Cocoa, FL" I do not know who sent it, as the Email it was contained in 'evaporated' as soon as I separated the attachment and did not subsequently appear in the trash. As I would like to discuss some points that the presentation contains, I would like to re-contact the sender. It seems likely to me that the sender was someone on BEE-L so I crave the moderators indulgence in placing this request before you. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:12:21 +0000 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 19:47 -0500, J. Waggle wrote: > Now you have a tool that can help identify desired traits, and may help in > the selection process, instead of a bunch of numbers and slapping in > treatments. My colleague Rodger Dewurst, a co-founder with me of the Cornwall Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders Group, has been doing this for a couple of seasons now and has presented his findings to SICAMM Conference in Versailles and our work together in BKQ. He has shown that you can select these different behaviours for a breeding programme relying on open mating (our bees do Apiary Vicinity Mating in poorer weather) and improve the stock steadily. I have observed the chewing increase dramatically after selection in both magnitude in individual colonies and across an increased number of colonies. He has been selecting for bees that bite the beekeeper by tugging at his skin (I have seen this too increase using a different selection scheme) and finds that the amount of grooming and damage to mites increases in the subsequent generations. He has separated out the damage to mature adult, immature adult, and immature young mites of all ages and found differences between colonies and the proportions of the different aged mites damaged between colonies. He has also been using a "compression test", before and after removing supers, compressing the colony down to the (usually) single brood chamber and in some colonies this increases the damage rate to above the 60% figure Wallner found led to varroa tolerance. He argues that our weather patterns here in West Cornwall will often produce "compression" which may account for intermittent increases in damage, but also night will increase congestion and the likelihood of grooming. He has also observed, as have many on this list, social grooming dances and auto-grooming, where a bee removes a mite itself from its back using its hind legs and others then take the mite away after a "shiver dance". Like others, I believe the chewing, which is first observable in a "pepperpot pattern" of brood in the spring, is an attempt by the bees to get at varroa in a pupa which is showing the adults that it is distressed but cannot get to it without removing the pupa bit by bit. The evidence on the varroa tray shows antennae, legs and pupal cases as well as bits of body. This can, as Joe said, be correlated with the brood comb as long as you look at the tray and note where the evidence lies. In some cases, you see clusters of pupal bits and immature young mites, up to the stage you expect at the purple eye stage (around when the chewing takes place) but no immature adults, only mature ones. This implies the action is taking place in the chewed out cells and not as the bees emerge when you see the chewing out in progress or empty cells immediately above the debris. We argue that the bees' defence against small invaders is their mandibles, which I believe have 2 main components: the tips, which cause indents in the varroa's carapace and the sides. which have a scissor like action, sometimes cutting right through the mite. In 2001 I posted a question about bees biting the beekeeper and Aaron and Mike replied, but no-one said they bred bees with this character. Rodger has been doing this since soon after we found varroa in our bees in around 1996 and it is a great surprise to visitors, many of whom normally use gloves to inspect hives. Additionally, the hygienic behaviour, which includes removing adult bees as they emerge, attacking and removing wax moth larvae, bee larvae and pupae, chalk brood and so on, is much more easily observed with no smoke or very little. In the UK, we tend not to replace queens in the spring so we rely on 7-10 day inspections to deal with potential swarming and can observe such behaviour and patterns of mite fall and related debris on the tray. Incidentally, Rodger deals with nest expansion by removing sealed brood to above the queen excluder and replacing the comb with foundation both to assist the rate of laying and the total population of bees, and maintain clean comb, which makes observations on the tray much easier as it reduces other debris. A bit more intensive than using a second box, but it works for him, given his interest in the measurements he is making. As you say, work in progress. I shall be amending the page below with some of Rodger's pictures which he was holding back for the published papers. My thanks to all who have reported on chewing pupae in the past. It became starkly apparent this season. james kilty http://www.kilty.demon.co.uk/beekeeping/improvement.htm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:34:46 +0000 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: Keith's Polystyrene Nuc In-Reply-To: <20061101012107.14028.qmail@web31612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 17:21 -0800, Grant Gillard wrote: > Keith Malone graciously shared his polystyrene nuc plans. His thread came in on Oct 23, under the heading of "Commercial Success:" > > For those of you who missed it, his link/URL is: http://akbkeepr.blake.prohosting.com/styronuc.htm Does anyone use the Apidea or Swienty style of PS nuc over your side? james kilty http://www.kilty.demon.co.uk/honeymountain/queens.htm a couple of relevant pictures only (still page building) click for bigger images of Apidea and Swienty -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 17:27:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: The Honeybee Genome Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here's another pod cast on the genome from Australia http://www.csiro.au/csiro/content/file/pfm4,,.html Posted earlier: Streaming videos: The honeybee genome (4 videos) http://www.nature.com/nature/videoarchive/honeybee/index.html Hear more about honeybee behaviour and the significance of the sequencing of the bee genome in the 26 October edition of the Nature Podcast. http://www.nature.com/nature/podcast/v443/n7114/nature-2006-10-26.mp3 Insights into social insects from the genome of the honeybee Apis mellifera http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v443/n7114/pdf/nature05260.pdf Genomics: How to make a social insect http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v443/n7114/pdf/443919a.pdf >From hive to human. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v443/n7114/pdf/443893a.pdf Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 19:28:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit james kilty wrote: >My colleague Rodger Dewurst, ,,, has shown that you can >select these different behaviours for a breeding programme relying on >open mating (our bees do Apiary Vicinity Mating in poorer weather) and >improve the stock steadily. Hello James, When you look at the research being conducted on the honeybee genome. One thing that I find fascinating is that compared with other insects, honeybees have only one-third as many genes involved in recognizing and killing their microbial enemies. This is interesting considering a honeybee spends more than 95 percent of its life in a crowded, moist 94- degree indoor environment hospitable to bacteria and parasites. Scientist believe honeybees have no need for many immune system genes because they have evolved specialized traits in place of them. This illustrates just how very important it is for the beekeeper to select for traits essential for the health of the colony. I have had success in selecting behaviors that are showing up in daughter colonies. I was specifically selecting for grooming abilities after seeing how very intense grooming is in some feral lines. Wing power is another trait I have observed in some woodland ferals that is much more apparent during the initial 18 weeks of colony growth. This trait seems a bit tricky to select because I can easily identify which ferals forage further distances when I place them in a poor forage location for assessments. But when these colonies are moved to my apiaries in the farmland where nearby forage is very abundant, these lines tend to perform about the same, maybe only a bit better during the flow, but during the summer dearth, they do much better it seems because of the ability to forage a greater distance for meager forage. He argues >that our weather patterns here in West Cornwall will often produce >"compression" which may account for intermittent increases in damage, >but also night will increase congestion and the likelihood of grooming. This is interesting that you have observed this. I have seen this increase of grooming at certain times. Grooming seems most prevalent in my colonies during what I describe as ‘down time’ in the morning hours before flights begin in earnest, mostly during warm mornings on the landing boards, bees can be seen passing the time grooming. Compression is an interesting term to describe it, but perhaps grooming is a chore that is initiated mostly during down time, when the nectar drying and other chores are finished. >He has also observed, as have many on this list, social grooming dances >and auto-grooming, I’m seeing very little auto-grooming in my bees. But what I am seeing is a very intense propensity for allo-grooming. On some mornings, allo- grooming can be so intense on the landing boards, it can occasionally look like a robbing event. I have seen hundreds of bees so evolved in social grooming, and often grooming bees will be so involved they will fall off the landing board to the ground, then fly back up to the landing board. During these early morning hours there will be intence grooming and bee activity on the entrance, but not a bee will be found flying, indicating it is not a robbing event. >where a bee removes a mite itself from its back using >its hind legs and others then take the mite away after a "shiver dance". I have heard many describe this dance, but I’m not seeing this particular grooming solicitation as many describe. What I have seen can only be described as a ’freeze dance’. The bee will hunch it’s back and freeze, and immediately, 1 or 3 bees will begin to vigorously groom her. >Like others, I believe the chewing, which is first observable in a >"pepperpot pattern" of brood in the spring, is an attempt by the bees to >get at varroa in a pupa which is showing the adults that it is >distressed but cannot get to it without removing the pupa bit by bit. What perplexes me about chewing down is that there seems to be two separate behavioral components at play. The bees will uncap the cell to reveal the pupa in the purple eyed stage. BUT, they often choose to allow the cell to remain uncapped for several days before chewing down the pupa. Because the pupa is allowed to remain undamaged in the cell after the cell is uncapped, wouldn’t you assume from this that the pupa is alive and well?,,, and the cause for uncapping not pupa distress? And because the bees do not immediately chew down the pupa to get the varroa after uncapping, wouldn’t you assume from this that the bees are not after the varroa?,,, because if they were uncapping due to varroa, wouldn’t you expect them to rapidly continue chewing down the pupa immediately after uncapping the cell to get to the varroa? So my question is, what is the trigger to uncap the cell, and what is the separate trigger that causes the bees to begin chewing down the pupa a day or two later? Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 15:34:16 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Keith's Polystyrene Nuc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Grant, > A couple of questions arose as I looked into this. First, I asked locally at the industrial contractor's supplier about 60 psi high density polystyrene, and all I can get is 25 psi. They offered to order 60 psi, but they would be buying a whole stack. I only need a few sheets. > If you contact Western Insulfoam they can direct you to a distributor that would be able to sell individual sheets or boards I would think, I could be wrong but here they directed me to Polar Supply. Here I went for a whole stack since it was less expensive per board. High density expanded polystyrene 60 Psi. is more costly than lower densities of extruded or expanded. 60 Psi. Expanded Polystyrene is used under ground covering septic systems and insulating roads from frost. > how do I know the density of the extruded polystyrene? > You really do not know, you have to trust your dealer, that is why you would go to other places than the big box dealers. When you see, touch, and pinch the different densities you will know the difference. > I may have to settle for something less dense. > The less dense it is the more bees chew it. Even at 60 Psi they chew a little. There are higher densities but they coast more and are custom ordered. > Is there a correlation to thickness and "R" value? > Yes, but don't ask me how much difference, you would have to search it as I would. > Keith, your nuc appeared to be constructed with white polystyrene. All we have locally is blue and pink (and they told me colors will vary between manufacturers). Are there differences in the product, aside from density? > The white is expanded, http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/E/AE_expanded_polystyrene.html and the blue and pink stuff is extruded. http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/E/AE_extruded_polystyrene.html Because of the gasses in extruded I think expanded would be better to use although extruded has a high structural strength compared to other rigid insulation materials. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 10:45:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Advance Notice Of Meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All BEE-L readership is worldwide, so I apologise to those that are not able to attend, but there are a few readers in UK that I may be able to reach via this list, that it may apply to. Many of you will know of my interest in Instrumental Insemination... We have a group in UK known as BIIG (Bee Instrumental Insemination Group). The aims of our group are:- * The promotion and development of Instrumental Insemination Techniques. * The conservation of races and strains of honey bees. * The improvement of strains to suit local conditions and enhance resistance to diseases and pests. The group encourages members to share experiences and ideas, thereby raising the proficiency of beginners and experts alike, a sort of 'self help' education and training. If you wish to know more, we have our AGM on November 18th 2006 11:00 am start at BBKA headquarters on the Stoneleigh National Agriculture Centre campus. More details can be obtained by Emailing me at... morphometry@dave-cushman.net Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 07:19:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] disappearing Email MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by mayyah@GMAIL.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material.=20 =20 ________________________________ From: Dave Maher [mailto:mayyah@gmail.com] Sent: Wed 2006.11.01 23:49 To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Subject: Re: [BEE-L] disappearing Email Dave =09 http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa06.htm =09 http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/FormicAcid.pdf =09 Thanks, Dave =09 Hardy County, West Virginia -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 06:55:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > the bees do not immediately chew down the pupa to get the varroa after > uncapping, wouldn’t you assume from this that the bees are not after the > varroa?,,, because if they were uncapping due to varroa, wouldn’t you > expect them to rapidly continue chewing down the pupa immediately after > uncapping the cell to get to the varroa? Working as an inspector, I have seen this in hundreds of hives. My take on it is: the pupae are dead. I think the bees slightly open up a dead cell, whether it is dead from foulbrood, varroa or chalkbrood. However, a worker bee never finishes a task. They flit about doing a bit here and a bit there. So the dead pupae may be unattended to for some time. Eventually, it will get removed if there are enough workers available for this task. If there are too many dead, it seems that they get overwhelmed by the work. Or, in the case of foulbrood, they seem to have an aversion to the dead material, maybe because of the smell? pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 13:00:18 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/11/2006 13:29:33 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: <> I've seen it many times as well. The pupae look perfectly fresh and healthy, and don't discolour in any way. They're all uncapped at the same stage too, when the eyes are light purple, and they darken normally if the pupae are left alone for a while, which would be unlikely if they were dead. I've never had any bad smell at all from them. The odd time I did have bees uncapping a lot of dead pupae, they were a solid mass of chalk by the time they got to them. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 22:25:42 +0000 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2006-11-01 at 19:28 -0500, J. Waggle wrote: > I was specifically selecting for grooming abilities after=20 > seeing how very intense grooming is in some feral lines. Some of us over here have been successful in breeding this trait so a higher % are groomed, as demonstrated by damage. > Grooming seems most prevalent in=20 > my colonies during what I describe as =E2=80=98down time=E2=80=99 in the = morning hours=20 > before flights begin in earnest, mostly during warm mornings on the=20 > landing boards, bees can be seen passing the time grooming. Thanks. That's something we can look out for. I know Rodger goes out early before he goes to his work in a Planning Department > On some mornings, allo- > grooming can be so intense on the landing boards, it can occasionally loo= k=20 > like a robbing event. I don't usually go out early, perhaps I will next year. > So my question is, what is the trigger to uncap the cell, and what is th= e=20 > separate trigger that causes the bees to begin chewing down the pupa a da= y=20 > or two later? =20 I have no idea. We are looking for ways the ordinary beekeeper can identify a good colony to breed from in their locality, not do more exact science. Interesting they also build the cell walls a little higher after uncapping. My presumption, until told otherwise, is that the bees were able to reach the mite from close to the opening. This would not deal with the daughters though. Anyone have an explanation (last picture in a group of 10 pictures in the section characters of varroa tolerance on the page below)? james kilty http://www.kilty.demon.co.uk/beekeeping/improvement.htm=20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 18:22:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Milt_Lathan?= Subject: Fellow Hobbyists - Good price for 60 pounds? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am going to come up short on Christmas gift honey this year. What do folks feel is a fair offer price for 5-6 gallons of honey? (I'm just south of Seattle, Washington) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 20:14:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: brood removal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe Waggle wrote: >>>>So my question is, what is the trigger to uncap the cell, and what is the separate trigger that causes the bees to begin chewing down the pupa a day or two later? My question, too! One wouldn't think that they have a strong reaction to the odor of a mite, since they don't display one outside the cell. So it wouldn't be that the foundress mite escapes when they uncap, and they no longer chew. So once they have the capping off, why do they leave that purple-eyed, healthy appearing pupa just resting there? Has anyone marked any exposed pupae to see if the bees ever seal them back up? Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 21:49:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: brood removal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy Oliver wrote: …So once they have the capping off, why do they leave that >purple-eyed, healthy appearing pupa just resting there? Has anyone marked >any exposed pupae to see if the bees ever seal them back up? Hi Randy, That would be a good experiment! With chewing out brood I see in my bees, they uncap and leave the cell open in the purple eyed stage. But what is odd, is that I generally see either All uncapped cells on the frame unharmed, OR chewed out. I don’t see some pupa chewed and some not. This makes me think that chewing process is cued separately, maybe by acclimation of mite feces or something. That chewing out seems to occure all at once, there may be somting occurring around the 16 or 17 day of the honeybee pupa metamorphous to trigger chewing. Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 18:04:07 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robert writes: They're all uncapped at the same stage too, when the eyes are light purple, and they darken normally if the pupae are left alone for a while, which would be unlikely if they were dead. Reply: When just to parallel here and reading what is being said... When I do queen rearing with modified selection pressure in an incubator and then take to the field for open mating in the incubator, those queens that do not emerge within a certain time frame from first start when doing 200-300 in one incubator, I then candle to light and sort, which one can do to gain speed for selection for faster development time. But in candling to light I then take those near to emerging and by hand open the caps with special knife/cutter and then lay bottles down on side. Most all have last stages of eyes developing and I know within a certain period of time then wings will expand and the queen will come marching out. When I see uncapped worker and drone brood to me it is the same. The bees have removed the cap and at purple eye stage, if one wants to watch the pupae will continue to develop, and I have even taken frames to observation hives, in past back in 1997/98 when I wrote about seeing this in ABJ and called around what I was seeing. The pupae will continue to develop and then one by one you can see workers/drones coming out of cells by self. Maybe not all, but a large majority of them. Same parallel to what I see when rearing queens. Like I wrote, IMPOV it means the varroa was taken off the head and not finding lower nor wanting to go down and get by chewing, as life of bee not in trouble or hurting, so why sacrifice, the bees decided to leave it alone. Bees are very gentle, caring insects to me...for this is why those born with deformed wings are many times left to be on frames and still be with sisters and eat and live, though lives are short due to circumstances they raised in. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on the New Yahoo.com (http://www.yahoo.com/preview) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 18:19:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: brood removal In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy: Has anyone marked any exposed pupae to see if the bees ever seal them back up? Reply: Just like uncapping queen cells in a incubator to work with virgin queen drops into field for open mating, or even doing so in an observation hive to watch you can learn a lot. Putting freshly uncapped open worker brood or drone brood into an observation hive with nurse bees from 'same hive, same frame' with additional nurse bees shaken/brushed in off of adjacent brood frames, when you see patches actively uncapped (not man deciding what to uncap here, but the bees) at purple eye stage, you will see this if you want to do it and try it. When we shook down whole outfit and worked them back up we had a lot to play with and several observation hives back then to watch things, though don't do it anymore as hardly see the circumstances anymore to warrant it necessary, for our mites like secondary diseases are under control. Also, one more thought, we didn't work with normal observation hives. Ed had built special ones with fold open workings, so I could put 2-4 frames inside and then slide in glass prior to opening so I could see what I wanted to see and then put back together. So I could pick where I wanted to open some observation hives, then insert glass and look, then put back together to make for keeping better clusters and brooding similar to in field. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers? ____________________________________________________________________________________ We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 19:29:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Fellow Hobbyists - Good price for 60 pounds? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In southeast Missouri, around $75, upwards to $90. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited Try it today. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 22:30:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: brood removal Comments: To: RandyOliver@INFS.NET In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe writes: But what is odd, is that I generally see either All uncapped cells on the frame unharmed, OR chewed out. I don’t see some pupa chewed and some not. Reply: I have seen it both ways depending upon where in the broodnest the frame is positioned and here we are talking perifery being a key, also cell size in addition to perifery, and temperature, I would say also, as to where greater concentrations of varroa would automatically go first. With ones on brood perifery more chewed then others more central, as there seems to be an order here also besides the LC to SC factor,and positioning. Regards, Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited (http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 06:32:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: brood removal In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-C041B48 > This makes me think that chewing >process is cued separately... I wonder if there are two sets of bees doing the work...uncappers and chewers. To be a sufficiently hygienic colony to complete the job, there must be both sets of bees in ample numbers. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date: 10/27/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:14:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Fellow Hobbyists - Good price for 60 pounds? Comments: To: "Grant F.C. Gillard" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Re: price of a pail Price depends on whether you are selling or buying! Selling, I'd want $100; buying I'd want $50! pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 06:59:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Bee Honey Therapy in Diabetic Volunteers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Another in a series of articles on the presentations offered at APIMEDICA 2006 APIMEDICA Presentation: Bee Honey Therapy in Diabetic Volunteers October 12-15, 2006, Athens, Greece By Mamdouh Abdulmaksoud Mohamed Abdulrhman, Professor of Pediatrics, Ain Shams University, Cairo, Egypt SEE: http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 10:12:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Fellow Hobbyists - Good price for 60 pounds? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think the 'fair' price depends a great deal on (1) the beekeeper's price for a one-pound container and (2) how anxious she is to sell pails. In my case I prefer to not sell pails and my one-pound (wholesale) price is $2.30 a pound. I sell several pails (more than 12 and fewer than 100) for $2 a pound and have not had any complaints. One of the large packers nearby will deliver a pallet of 24 pails at a price that works out to $1.35 a pound, but that honey is labeled 'product of US, Argentina, and China'. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 14:54:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Fellow Hobbyists - Good price for 60 pounds? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit $90.00 for 5 gallons. Milt Lathan wrote: What do folks feel is a fair offer price for 5-6 gallons of honey? --------------------------------- Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on the new Yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 15:04:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Fellow Hobbyists - Good price for 60 pounds? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Who is that? Is this being delivered to a store or to another packer? Mark Lloyd Spear wrote: One of the large packers nearby --------------------------------- Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 15:08:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Fellow Hobbyists - Good price honey? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have been charging $4.00 for one pound jars, $7.00 for two pound jars, and $9.00 for three pound jars. I also charge $5.50 for one pint (1 1/2 lb) jars. Haven't made enough honey yet to consider selling in 60# pails. Maybe next year. Mike in LA (Lower Alabama) --------------------------------- Low, Low, Low Rates! Check out Yahoo! Messenger's cheap PC-to-Phone call rates. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 12:03:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: fellow hobbyists--good honey price? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Milt, A fair price depends upon what the demand for that specific honey is in your area. A fine varietal will cost more. Generally, the word "local" raises the price, but if the honey comes from somewhere else, it's not local. If the honey is "organically" produced without miticides or heat, it is worth more. In my case, I'm sitting on drums of nice alfalfa honey (not local to my home town), waiting for the price to go well above $1 per pound. But yesterday, I sold a 60# bucket of local organic honey to a good friend for a "deal" at $2 per pound, plus cost of bucket. Last year, I sold out my local organic (several thousand pounds), and very few drops went for less than $3 in bulk--most was repacked by local hobbyists who resold it at $5-6/lb. I sell out of my local each year, so I can ask and receive a large price. My "generic" alfalfa is a very good honey, but I process it with a little heat, and it's not local, so I don't get a premium, and sell most of it in drums. But again, last year I liquified several drums to repack into 5 gal buckets, for someone who resold it for $5/lb. To make up for my labor of repacking into 5 gal buckets, I charged $2-$2.50/lb. I'm not trying to bore you with all the prices--the point is: honey is worth whatever the market will bear. That depends upon location, quality, whether it's organic or heated, the time of year, alternative supplies, and salesmanship. I work hard at my bees, and try not to give away the product for less than it's worth. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 17:35:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Green Subject: Fellow Hobbyists - Good price for 60 pounds? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Oh, yum. The question must be, why would American beekeepers do business with them at all? At 12:00 AM 11/4/2006, you wrote: >One of the large packers nearby >will deliver a pallet of 24 pails at a price that works out to $1.35 a >pound, but that honey is labeled 'product of US, Argentina, and China'. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 13:30:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: fellow hobbyists--good honey price? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That's quite a good price, Randy. You must live in an area where alot of people can pay well and are demanding of the honey they consume. Good for you. What are your "organic " standards? Are your bees foraging on an organically grown floral source? Are you "Certified Organic"? Or self certified? You must be well situated to be able to sit on drums of honey until the price goes up. I've heard of such folks, but never met one. Mark Randy Oliver wrote: If the honey is "organically" produced without miticides or heat, it is worth more. --------------------------------- Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on the new Yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 16:02:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: fellow hobbyists--good honey price? In-Reply-To: <20061104213049.59036.qmail@web32101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit mark berninghausen wrote: >That's quite a good price, Randy. You must live in an area where alot of people can pay well and are demanding of the honey they consume. Good for you. > We have a vibrant natural foods community to sell to. > > What are your "organic " standards? Are your bees foraging on an organically grown floral source? Are you "Certified Organic"? Or self certified? > I don't call it organic--I was being brief for the List. I tell buyers that I cannot obtain organic certification, since my bees forage locally over houses in the country, where someone may spray. Otherwise, I use no synthetic miticides, and process in a 90°F room without additional heat (for my "natural" honey). That seems to be good enough for the buyers. However, the main selling point is always the word "local." > You must be well situated to be able to sit on drums of honey until the price goes up. I've heard of such folks, but never met one. > Not by choice--I pool my drums with a friend who sells by the semi load. I'm waiting on him, and he will wait for a good price. When the price spiked to $1.50 two years ago, he was sitting on 300 drums of honey worth about $1000 each. The proceeds paid for his new 9000 sq ft honey house, heated by a geothermal well. Randy -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 20:27:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Fellow Hobbyists - Good price for 60 pounds? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Oh, yum. The question must be, why would American beekeepers do business with them at all? Argentina has a modern beekeeping industry (Chile does too) and there is no reason at all that their honey wouldn't be every bit as good as US product. For that matter, plenty of junk is produced here. see: http://www.sweetnature.com.ar/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 09:15:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kevin Roberts Subject: Re: Fellow Hobbyists - Good price for 60 pounds? In-Reply-To: <20061103032914.32538.qmail@web31611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I sell at a downtown farmer's market in Columbus, Ohio. 16oz Gamber classic $7.00 6lb half gallon polyethylene $29.75 12lb gallon polyethylene $47.75 60lb food grade bucket $125.00 I have professional labels on the queenlines. Kevin Roberts, Belmont, Ohio --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited Try it today. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 10:27:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe Subject: honey prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List- As a hobbyist beekeeper in Brooklyn NY with three hives on my roof, I = think I top the list so far at $8/lb.I sell directly in my own = neighborhood. I don't use miticides and don't heat it and I would call = it organic except for the fact that some local Brooklyn gardeners may = spray.Who knows. I also began selling 1/2 lb.bears at $5 this year. People snap up my honey because very local urban honey is such a = novelty. I have never heard complaints about the price-- or the quality. Yours, John Howe The Brooklyn Bee www.thebrooklynbee.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 13:27:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: brood removal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Palmer wrote: >I wonder if there are two sets of bees doing the work...uncappers and >chewers. To be a sufficiently hygienic colony to complete the job, there >must be both sets of bees in ample numbers. Hello Mike, Intresting concept! This could be as bees may be specialist in detecting infected brood and others maybe the ’undertaker’ bees specialize in removing the brood. Something also interesting, in talking with some other small cell beekeepers, they have stated that the uncapping trait becomes more pronounced in their bees while regressing and after. Some describe seeing chewing down of the brood, and others describe seeing the pupa being removed intact and being discarded outside the colony. I wonder if removal of pupa as opposed to chewing down pupa are traits that could be selected for individually. Hypothesizing now, chewing down of pupa might be more labor intensive but may increase the propensity for the mite to be destroyed by chewing in the process. While pulling out of the pupa intact, might be less labor intensive which would allow for more infected brood to be discarded, but may also permit some of the mature varroa to escape destruction. Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 15:13:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Wrote: … We are looking for ways the ordinary beekeeper can >identify a good colony to breed from in their locality, not do more >exact science. http://www.kilty.demon.co.uk/beekeeping/improvement.htm Hi James, I looked at your site, very nice work! Nice pics of what appears to be characteristic of ’fall chewing’. It seems also from reading the page, that you have a well balanced approach to the selection process. james wrote: Anyone have an explanation >(last picture in a group of 10 pictures in the section characters of >varroa tolerance on the page below)? http://www.kilty.demon.co.uk/beekeeping/improvement.htm Many might suggest that there is evidence of chewing out of worker pupa in that pic as indicated by the pupa parts. I am just recently pondering the possibility that there may be two existing sub traits concerning the removal of infected pupa. Looks in your pic like honeybee pupa exoskeletons and large bee parts is evidence of ‘pulling and discarding’ of diseased pupa. Which as I hypothesize may somehow be related to, but may also be separate from the trait of ‘chewing and reabsorbing’ diseased pupa, as opposed to discarding the pupa (as I stated in my reply to Michael I state that some beekeepers report chewing out of worker brood and others occasionally report the brood being discarded). Also, looks to me like some wax worm feces. How a beekeeper should interpret what he sees in a honeybee colony has been a point of extreme interest to me lately. Lets for a moment consider how we should interpret this debris. First, if I may,,, Here’s an interesting article concerning bi-directional selection, written by Steve Sheppard. ‘Selection and possibilities within honey bees – be careful what you are selecting for.’ http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=480 I would like to expand what Steve wrote in his article to other varroa symptoms. Looking at the honeybees resistance to varroa as you would honeybees resistance to AFB, there are several lines of defense against AFB. 1 st. line of defense in AFB resistance might be filtration of spores by action of the proventriculus, midgut growth inhibitors and pollen and larvae food inhibitors. 2 nd line of defense might be the ability to remove infected larva during the vegetive stage (which not all hygienic bees seem capable of doing). And 3 rd line of defense might be removal of infected larva and pupa in the later stages of AFB. This is why simple selection of hygienic behavior itself, is often not sufficient for effective selection of AFB resistance. With Steve’s article in mind, lets look at chewing (that most consider a good thing) from a bi-directional selection aspect. Seeing a large about of chewing IMO is not always desirable for me because this may indicate heavy varroa pressure in worker brood and a possible less grooming efficacy or apparent lack of other essential mite suppression traits in earlier lines of defenses. >From my experience with varroa in small cell colonies, populations of varroa should steadily decline, especially a big drop in varroa population during winter and being observed during spring assessments. So, I would not necessarily want to see a high degree chewing out in spring because this might indicate something lacking else ware. So I may for example (along with considering the over all evidence) give more favorable grades to a colony having the trait exhibiting less pupa chewing in the spring. Let’s now consider the bi-directional selection possibilities that exist from selecting traits based on bottomboard debris as a main selective tool. By selecting colonies based on pupa and mite parts on the bottom board (which would certainly be a good thing, suggestive of traits concerning grooming and diseased pupa removal). Could we actually be selecting against colonies with a high degree of cleanliness, that tend to vigorously remove debris from the colony instead of letting it fall to the floor? For example, a colony vigorously removing debris from the hive as a result of a highly developed cleanliness trait, may not assess well for grooming and chewing out traits if selection based on bottom board debris is given too much consideration. The selection of colonies is based on the degree of mites, pupa parts and debris on the bottom board, could also result in a subsequent rise in harmful bacteria within the colony causing stress at the colony level due to the selection against cleanliness. This is something that I think about with every selective process I make, due the possibility that exist for making an unintentional selection of undesired traits as a result of bi-directional selection that could occur with almost every selection criteria. But I believe the chances of harmful bi-directional selection can be mitigated by adopting a well balanced approach in the selective process that places fundamental colony functions, queen performance and colony productivity in the forefront of any selective process. Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 16:01:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: recipe for the European hornet trap Comments: To: David.Rectenwald@WVCHAR.ang.af.mil, BEABOB61@ADELPHIA.NET, cbow3952@Charter.net, beesnbooks70@peoplepc.com, geniebee@juno.com, drectenwald@earthlink.com, j.rectenwald@earthlink.net, ebw104@juno.com, jacksoncountybeekeepers@earthlink.net, SBall10623@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit recipe for the european hornet trap 2 cups sugar 2 cups warm water mix these ingredients thoroughly add 1/2 cup white vinager then pour into a 2 liter soda bottle add part of a banana peel, not the whole banana peel. hang up outside by a rope or something Russ Dean H. A. S. 2008 @ Marshall University, Huntington, WV -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 18:56:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/11/2006 21:13:59 GMT Standard Time, naturebee@YAHOO.COM writes: <> I find that this depends on the time of year. Bees die overwinter, and are left until after misummer, when 'spare' bees are presumably available for cleaning. Cleaning then takes place, and piles of body parts appear under the mesh. It's worth adding that my strain overwinters in quite small clusters, so no bees will be available for inessential tasks early in the season. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 18:06:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe replying: Looks in your pic like honeybee pupa exoskeletons and large bee parts is evidence of ‘pulling and discarding’ of diseased pupa. Which as I hypothesize may somehow be related to, but may also be separate from the trait of ‘chewing and reabsorbing’ diseased pupa, as opposed to discarding the pupa (as I stated in my reply to Michael I state that some beekeepers report chewing out of worker brood and others occasionally report the brood being discarded). Reply: Okay, in following the discussion you are having may I interject another thought to add to the pot to ponder. Bees though insects are also animals and do have brains, and like other animals do get pressed for work having to make the best of short-time frames for accomplishing tasks to keep up with mother nature. There are slow moving years and fast moving years for lack of other words. Take the years when spring is coming on fast and plants are starting to bloom, and you find then bees quickly chewing out frames of granulated honey to make room for expansion of broodnest, vs those years when spring is coming on slow and they are having to save and use every ounce of food they have. They seem to know when to go into a fast track mode vs a slower paced one. Why wouldn't this then be similar to the brood chewing out/down variances you are describing, depending upon the needs of the individual hive it is occuring within, knowing that not all hives work at the same pace for spring buildup or other broodnest turnovers at other times of the active beekeeping year? Just like granulated honey chewing out seen in some years vs not in others. Intensive broodnest chewing and cleansing out in some years and not in others. Why not same scenario in pupae chewing out, or even secondary diseases too for that matter? A slow mode and a fast mode depending upon the time frame at hand, besides the amount of workers available, and strong hive vs weaker hive? LIke I said all animals do think and I think bees think more then many give them credit for................. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 23:11:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: powdered sugar question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All, I'm experimenting with powdered sugar. I've read Fakhimzadeh's 2000 paper, Aliano and Ellis's 2005 papers, and searched the archives. But I'm not finding a paper that details the efficacy (in percent) of mite removal by brushing a cup (more than Fakhimzadeh used) of sugar over the top bars (Aliano put bees in a cage). A simple test--does anyone know of someone who's done it? If I had a few collapsing colonies to sacrifice, I'd do the counts myself, but (knock on wood) my bees are finally looking pretty good! Any references out there? Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 20:17:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? In-Reply-To: <20061106020609.98984.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: >Take the years when spring is coming on fast and plants are >starting to bloom, and you find then bees quickly chewing >out frames of granulated honey to make room for expansion >of broodnest, vs those years when spring is coming on slow >and they are having to save and use every ounce of food >they have. > The chewed brood would be a good source of protein, and I assumed the bees would always utilize it. But in times of surplus pollen, maybe not--interesting thought, Dee. Randy Oliver > > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 09:23:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: PO Gustafsson Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This whole discussion looks a bit off topic to me. What is really killing the bees? Mites? Nope, it's virus. Mainly DWV. Mites are just the vector, transporters of virus between bees. I think we should look for how bees can handle the virus infection instead. My personal experience is that the initial high numbers of mites in the hives has declined, but virus infection remain or even increase. The first years of varroa there were a solid layer of mites on the sticky boards after treatment without seeing any virus damage on bees. This year I haven't seen more than a few mites on boards, but do see hives affected by DWV in August. And yes, I do backup treatment with oxalic later to ensure there is no resistance to fluvalinate. Varroa resistance - honey crop. There has long been known, at least on this side of the pond, that the so called resistant Russian bees didn't produce much honey. The reason is obvious; they have a lower brood production, and thus a lower mite production. To breed for lower mite numbers will probably also mean breed for less honey. There are hives that can live with varroa. But is there anyone that can honestly say they can breed for higher honey production without loosing the bees ability to handle mite infection? Now Dee, you are in a special situation in the desert. Are there any others, commercial or semi commercial beeks that has done it? And please, keep small cells out of this. If we are looking for better ability to handle virus infection, I would think vitality is important. It is for us, should be the same for our bees. All selection mean some inbreeding --> less vitality. I see a problem here. If we inbreed to select for special traits like grooming etc, we loose some vitality among the bees to handle virus. Thoughts? -- Regards P-O Gustafsson pogust@gmail.com http://beeman.se -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 08:04:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? In-Reply-To: <2db732bf0611060023k64f31d8fq9b0ba36a3febad14@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PO Gustafsson wrote: > But is there anyone that can honestly say they can breed for higher > honey production without loosing the bees ability to handle mite > infection? Excellent point, and in my experience, up 'til last year, that was the case. Resisistant bees produced poorly. Then two years ago I finally started getting from my own operation, and others, queens whose bees could do it all. Strongly mite resistant, and the best buildup, brood nests, and honey production I've seen. I haven't seen any "cost" for their varroa control. Danny Weaver, with 5000 colonies, hasn't used any varroa treatment of any sort for several years. After hard losses, his bees are doing great. So the answer to your question is "yes." Randy Oliver > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 07:39:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? In-Reply-To: <454EB745.60908@infs.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy Oliver: The chewed brood would be a good source of protein, and I assumed the bees would always utilize it. But in times of surplus pollen, maybe not--interesting thought, Dee. Reply: In periods of extreme needs for reproduction/living even humans throughout history have been known to revert to live. With today's artificial feeds at times it makes one wonder why bees do certain things, but then again lacking in certain nutrients they will certainly try to obtain what they need. Same would be true here for resizing down to allow for collection of fuller spectrum of propolis for fighting immune diseases, and viral and fungal problems and better sterility of the broodnest area, from which comes the life of our hives, not to say also better diet for enhanced health also, for the carrying out of day to day functions/work. Is it traits/characteristics you are looking at or other? That is the question and how does one seperate for study and learning and working hives? respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Get a free Motorola Razr! Today Only! Choose Cingular, Sprint, Verizon, Alltel, or T-Mobile. http://www.letstalk.com/inlink.htm?to=592913 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 13:32:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Milt_Lathan?= Subject: Re: Fellow Hobbyists - Good price for 60 pounds? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey folks, Thanks for your input on & off the list. To be clear, I am not a reseller of honey. I am down to 3 hives now and decided to leave the bees a little extra this year. I pulled enough to 'pay' my bee-landlords but I have gotten my friends back in clover country to expect some of "...that wonderful blackberry honey" every holiday. Sounds like friend to friend prices range from one to two dollars per pound in bulk. (To me, Sixty pounds is a lot to BUY). Related subject - I tried a local family's 'Fireweed' honey out of a plastic-lined drum. It tastes great - but, I am pretty sure it's from their 2005 crop. Does Fireweed just keep better than other honeys? I wonder - how much honey IS in storage around North America? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 17:07:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Old honey, still good? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Related subject - I tried a local family's 'Fireweed' honey out of a >plastic-lined drum. It tastes great - but, I am pretty sure it's from >their 2005 crop. Does Fireweed just keep better than other honeys? I have heard one or two beekeepers claim honey over a year old is "no good". This is not really based on fact, but I suspect it is a ploy to get people to buy fresh honey. It certainly keeps for years, though the blossom-like flavor of some honeys may fade in time. pb * * * Honey FAQ (from Sioux) Honey is by nature very low in bacteria and other microbes and does not benefit from a pasteurization process. Honey will keep indefinitely if stored in a sealed container. It is best stored at room temperature. Refrigeration promotes granulation. Honey darkens with age and becomes a bit stronger in flavor. It will not spoil. Granulation is a natural characteristic of pure honey which does not harm it or indicate any deterioration of the honey. It is also easily reversed by carefully heating the honey container in hot water. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 17:14:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/11/2006 11:39:17 GMT Standard Time, pogust@GMAIL.COM writes: This year I haven't seen more than a few mites on boards, but do see hives affected by DWV in August. And yes, I do backup treatment with oxalic later to ensure there is no resistance to fluvalinate. I'm not sure that this would necessarily have the effect you assume. Aren't you just selecting for resistance to 2 chemicals rather than one if you continue to use fluvalinate annually? I try to use it no more frequently than 1 year in 4 as part of IPM and I try to program it so the brood comb exposed to it is replaced the following spring. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 17:20:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: >Take the years when spring is coming on fast and plants are >starting to bloom, and you find then bees quickly chewing >out frames of granulated honey to make room for expansion >of broodnest, vs those years when spring is coming on slow >and they are having to save and use every ounce of food >they have. Hi Dee, Yes, this would probably be the appropriate explanation if ALL colonies in a bee yard or in same micro habitat were exhibiting seasonal behavioral characteristics that could be correlated to environmental conditions. But, in a group of hives, << all things being equal >> with similar colony strength etc, if some colonies exhibit chewing and others pulling, I would think that the behavior is more associated with a trait rather than environmental. But if all colonies are either pulling or chewing according to flows and weather conditions, then I might think the behavior is more associated with environmental influences. But it probably wouldn’t explain the chewing out behavior seen in my colonies during the fall, a time of abundance with the aster flow. …A slow mode and a >fast mode depending upon the time frame at hand, besides >the amount of workers available, and strong hive vs weaker >hive? LIke I said all animals do think and I think bees >think more then many give them credit for................. Division of labor and environmental conditions would certainly would influence many colony functions. But what I am seeing <<’in my colonies’>> is chewing out pupa as opposed to pulling pupa. I am seeing chewing out behavior in colonies as small as single frame nucs, on up to mature colonies. I also give all honeybees an abundance of credit for the ability to think things out. But when talking traits, ‘as smart as I know my bees are‘, I would not expect them to be capable of thinking up a trait (to use another example, theklytoky) if the bees do not carry the trait to some degree. What I have learned from the little experience I have with breeding, is that you cannot develop a trait, that is not already present in the genetics to some degree. Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 23:17:01 +0000 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2006-11-05 at 15:13 -0500, J. Waggle wrote: > I looked at your site, very nice work! Thanks - I replied off list. > Nice pics of what appears to be=20 > characteristic of =E2=80=99fall chewing=E2=80=99. It seems also from rea= ding the page, =20 > that you have a well balanced approach to the selection process. We have 2 parallel selection processes which seem to converge on the chewing. I am sure next season we'll take photos daily on a small selection of colonies to follow through the process and timings. I was told the 2-gene theory (one to uncap, one to remove) has been modified recently to multiple genes but have no source - anyone? snip > Also, looks=20 > to me like some wax worm feces. I left these in deliberately, on the grounds that the hygiene may not apply across the board (to wax moth as well) or there are insufficient bees with the trait to cope (as yet). However, there are colonies with no wax moth poo(p) and no wax moth on the floor. You mentioned > http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=3DStory&recordID=3D480 I reread this article and came to the same conclusion as I did the first time. The review seems to contradict itself. If the selection criterion was mite mumbers, they should NOT be able to deduce anything about the various VKFs (Varroa Kill Factors to use Wallner's code) at all. And obviously, we breed only from strong colonies that can produce us honey. We cannot say anything about AFB as we don't get it here - it is not endemic, though AFB is most likely to be so, though our local source was finally tracked down and few of us actually get it. We can make sure no colony with obvious viral infection is used as a breeder. We cannot determine without more detailed examination, if high chewing is high mite pressure. I have left most colonies untreated (low mite counts) in the hope that the chewing is part of the tolerance we are aiming for. In any case i became apparent in July, when the brood rearing dropped, perhaps because the mites piled into the same cells. > So I may for example=20 > (along with considering the over all evidence) give more favorable grades= =20 > to a colony having the trait exhibiting less pupa chewing in the spring.=20 I would expect it at all times the brood size was smaller than the mite numbers. I did wonder, like you, about colonies with NO debris and will look more closely at them - again no treatments this time. We had much lower mite falls this year - in some I never saw any on the floor! The spring build up will show if I was right. james http://www.kilty.demon.co.uk/beekeeping/improvement.htm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 18:37:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PO Gustafsson wrote: >This whole discussion looks a bit off topic to me. What is really >killing the bees? Mites? Nope, it's virus. Mainly DWV. >Mites are just the vector, transporters of virus between bees. I >think we should look for how bees can handle the virus infection >instead. Not quite, according to Penn State researchers. (I referenced in my reply some material I have saved): Researchers there believe that there is a combination of factors triggering colony deaths which includes suppression of the bee immune system by the mites. They have also found that simply having deformed wing virus does not cause bees to emerge from the pupa state with deformed wings, nor is the presence of the viruses sufficient to cause colony deaths. So a breeder might conclude that trying to breed DWV resistant bees would be a waste of time. They have found that a combination of mite infestation and deformed wing virus will cause deformed wings in about a 25% of the emerging bees. This however, according to researchers is still not sufficient to cause colony collapse. The focus of the research is centered on the chemical glucose oxidase or ‘GOX’ that is put into the honey by worker bees and sterilizes the honey and the colonies food. They have found that if bees have mites, their production of GOX decreases. They suspect as mites build up, not as much GOX will be found in the honey and the honey has more bacteria. They go on to say it is likely that the combination of 1) increased mite infestation, 2) virus infection and 3) bacteria that is the cause of the two-week death collapse of hives. A breeder could conclude from this ‘if you solve the mite problem, this increases nutritional foraging and GOX production, and you will solve the DWV problem‘. But is there anyone that can honestly >say they can breed for higher honey production without loosing the >bees ability to handle mite infection? Presently doing just that! I have managed thru intense selection to get 98% brood viability and still the colonies have a natural ability to keep varroa populations at very small numbers. This season fall I managed a harvest in spite of reports of a relatively bad fall flow from other nearby beekeepers. Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 17:57:08 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Old honey, still good? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Honey was found and in perfectly good condition in some ancient egyptian crypts iirc some 5,000 years old. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 21:10:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Can it be fixed? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an old Dadant electric steam generator https://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=3D35_69&products_id= =3D374 or http://tinyurl.com/wapcy =20 So old in fact that a small hole has rusted through the bottom. I am = debating if I should try to plug the hole with a wad of epoxy puddy, or = simply bite the bullet and buy a new one. I wouldn't mind saving the = $300. =20 Anyone been there, done that? =20 Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 22:14:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Varroa / Hypopharyngeal Gland Activity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On another thread that Waggle guy writes: ...Penn State researchers have found that if bees have mites, >their production of GOX decreases. They suspect as mites build up, not >as much GOX will be found in the honey and the honey has more bacteria. Hello Mr Waggle & All, If we look at what we know: We know that glucose oxidase produced in the honeybee hypopharyngeal gland, and is placed in the colonies honey and food as a bacteria inhibitor. We know that the size of the hypopharyngeal gland depends nutritional content of the pollen eaten by the newly emerged workers. Poor quality pollen is known to cause the gland to develop smaller in size. We know that varroa infestations can affect the nutritional health of the colony in the quality and quantity of pollen collected, smaller pollen loads were also observed on pollen foragers from varroa infested colonies. I understand that Zachary Huang has done some research on factors that affect hypopharyngeal gland activity. I wonder if any of his research may have been focused on varroa affects on hypopharyngeal gland activity? Just a wild guess, but,,, The effects of varroa on nutritional pollen foraging could intern cause a smaller less efficient hypopharyngeal gland to develop, which might result in less anti bacteria substances produced by the hypopharyngeal gland to be placed in the colonies food, which could make possible a rise in harmful bacteria found in stored food which when fed to larva may easily infect the developing bee due to its weakened immune system by way of the scars made by the feeding varroa, and varroa feces would only serve to accelerate this bacterial growth, leaving all the factors in place to cause DWV symptoms to appear. Remember now, its just a wild guess. Comments anyone? Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 18:19:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe Waggle, Good for you for following the bees closely to be able to rule some things out with environment and time of year. Now in chewing out are you seeing any pattern as to layout within your colonies, especially if they could be setup with housel positioning, with drone and larger culled to the periferies and smaller/more uniform to the center of the broodnest? Are periferies more attractive to mites with larger cells laidout/culled to there; also with more slightly cooler in hive temps, that then might make the bees chew out there first, thus being maybe a more reproductive zone to watch closer? If they, the bees can keep these spots in tact and under control with first reactions there, then could mites be kept away by the bees from the core of the working broodnest for better control during active year? It would seem so in a way, the way we talk on phasing in new frames SC and culling to sides and then up and out with straight culling when empty or culling when extracting, and perhaps a rotation scheme to follow when putting in new foundation to get drawn out. But for triggering traits and characteristics, how many do you thing might be involved? Seems there might be several beekeepers may want to look for. And how would it vary from type of bee used also? So many things to consider....though all very similar..... Regards, Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Degrees online in as fast as 1 Yr - MBA, Bachelor's, Master's, Associate Click now to apply http://yahoo.degrees.info -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 18:44:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PO Gustafsson wrote: This whole discussion looks a bit off topic to me. What is really killing the bees? Mites? Nope, it's virus. Mainly DWV. Mites are just the vector, transporters of virus between bees. I think we should look for how bees can handle the virus infection instead. Reply: Now that would IMPOV take a richer diet and richer propolis gathered, which would mean more extended foraging and more work force wouldn't it? Could also mean needing in a beehive more housecleaning bees for keeping better sterility in the broodnest with the propolis gathered, which would be different duties then those done by nurse bees wouldn't it? But how would you visualize getting more bees available for what seems to be more problems accruing to take care of what you are saying and seeing? How would one change the operating field mechanics of a beehive to help the bees do what you need? Joe Waggle writes Not quite, according to Penn State researchers. (I referenced in my reply some material I have saved): Researchers there believe that there is a combination of factors triggering colony deaths which includes suppression of the bee immune system by the mites. They have also found that simply having deformed wing virus does not cause bees to emerge from the pupa state with deformed wings, nor is the presence of the viruses sufficient to cause colony deaths. Reply: Meaning for suppression of bees immune system by mite? Could it be less foragers for propolis to keep the sterility of the broodnest intact? Or having propolis on hand to bees to eat? Having healthy bacterial and viral and fungal that are beneficial and not killed off by what to help the bees gut digest better and take control of internal problem? Just what is meant here? So what causes colony death then actually with DFW virus? What makes it kick in to hurt? or not hurt a hive? What does it do to a hive with them running around this way other then having an impact on division of labor for in house cleaning duties, etc, or maybe shorten life of bees? Make a hive need more stores that could hurt the hive? Divert attention away from other duties done by healthy workers still left, by having to care for invalid maybe? Just what is meant by presence doesn't cause colony death? What other in house factors are hurt like I have mentioned here? Regards, Dee a. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 07:20:54 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Old honey, still good? In-Reply-To: <000c01c701ff$45ae2f40$0700a8c0@workstation> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <000c01c701ff$45ae2f40$0700a8c0@workstation>, Scot Mc Pherson writes >Honey was found and in perfectly good condition in some ancient egyptian >crypts iirc some 5,000 years old. That is an apocryphal tale and not actually true. Yes honey was found, or more accurately a substance identifiable as honey, but NOT anything remotely in good condition. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 23:47:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Can it be fixed? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >debating if I should try to plug the hole with a wad of epoxy puddy >wouldn't mind saving the $300 You know Aaron I like a person who’s frugal. These guys have some pretty good stuff. http://www.marinetex.com/ Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 00:03:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Old honey, still good? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >It certainly keeps for years, though the blossom-like flavor of some honeys may fade in time It does degrade a bit over time although doesn’t seem to “spoil” as a food for humans. I have an earlier edition of Leslie Bailey’s ‘Honey Bee Pathology’. Bailey writes on some of the causes of dysentery and has this to say: “Even honey that has been stored at ambient temperatures for several years causes dysentery and shortens the lives of bees compared with those fed on sucrose.” Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 09:22:33 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Old honey, still good? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot Mc Pherson > Honey was found and in perfectly good condition in some ancient egyptian > crypts iirc some 5,000 years old. Certainly honey was found, but I have yet to see the results of any analysis. Is the 'good' just a myth? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 21:13:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Can it be fixed? In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092108BE11E3@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron: Yep, interesting as I am having one fixed right now by another beekeeper helping me out getting silver queen resetback up, so I can bed our bees down now. Hole on bottom too! So will get back with you on how hole fixed after I talk with him, as he tells me how he did it. All Jerry said was "Gee don't by another I can fix that!...easy!!!" Regards, Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Get an Online or Campus degree Associate's, Bachelor's, or Master's - in less than one year. http://www.findtherightschool.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 06:38:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Can it be fixed? In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092108BE11E3@UAEXCH.univ.alban y.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4B4956DD I have one of those, too. I would think you could patch the hole, or weld it. There really isn't much pressure that builds up, and the worst that could happen is a water leak. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.27/517 - Release Date: 11/3/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 05:36:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: Can it be fixed? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, Anyone been there, done that? Yes, Aaron, first braze the pin holes shut and smooth (grind) all edges,then put a patch about the size of a silver dallor and braze all round it . The pin hole area probably has weak spots around it so the patch will help strenghen it.I hope you have access to a torch, good luck. Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 13:41:49 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Old honey, still good? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I read that certain enzyme levels in honey start dropping after prolonged storage. The sweet taste certainly does not seem to be affected. :) Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 09:13:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Varroa / Hypopharyngeal Gland Activity In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Waggle wrote: >> their production of GOX decreases. They suspect as mites build up, not >> as much GOX will be found in the honey and the honey has more bacteria. >> > > If we look at what we know: > > We know that glucose oxidase produced in the honeybee hypopharyngeal > gland, and is placed in the colonies honey and food as a bacteria > inhibitor. > > I have never seen anything that shows it goes into "food" (pollen?). Also it is not a bacterial inhibitor. It is an enzyme that oxidizes glucose to gluconolactone which, in turn goes into equilibriums with gluconic acid, the principal acid in honey. In addition, hydrogen peroxide is produced and it is the production of the peroxide that kills off bacteria. The acid and high sugar concentration will kill live bacteria but will not kill the spores. > Just a wild guess, but,,, > The effects of varroa on nutritional pollen foraging could intern cause a > smaller less efficient hypopharyngeal gland to develop, which might result > in less anti bacteria substances produced by the hypopharyngeal gland to > be placed in the colonies food, which could make possible a rise in > harmful bacteria found in stored food which when fed to larva may easily > infect the developing bee due to its weakened immune system by way of the > scars made by the feeding varroa, and varroa feces would only serve to > accelerate this bacterial growth, leaving all the factors in place to > cause DWV symptoms to appear. Remember now, its just a wild guess. > What "harmful bacteria" are we talking about? The main issue with glucose oxidase in honey is more in its breakdown products acting as a preservative to prevent fermentation, especially at the honey/air/moisture interface. When honey is "thin" it will ferment as the hydrogen peroxide is used up. That will weaken bees. Honeydew gathered in the fall will ferment during the winter and you can shake it out from frames in the spring. Varroa have nothing to do with it. BTDT. Plus, the amount of glucose oxidase in honey is more related to the amount of glucose which is also related to the curing time of honey and the original nectar's glucose content.. That is the main selling point of the NZ research on their honeys wound healing capacity.It has lots of glucose to start with. We have a lot of things going on here and are mixing glucose oxidase, nectar's glucose content, bacteria, viruses, yeasts and the like to arrive at some Unified Varroa Theory. Too much going on for that. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 10:05:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: >,,,in chewing out are you seeing any pattern as to layout >within your colonies, especially if they could be setup >with housel positioning, with drone and larger culled to >the periferies and smaller/more uniform to the center of >the broodnest? Concerning housel now, with my personal observations of feral nest construction ‘in protected enclosures‘. I will generally see a center comb develop with a horizontal cell type construction. But looking at the many feral nests I have inspected, the rest of the combs built in voids will have cells will be positioned vertically and in an arrangement that I can only describe as a haphazard cell comb orientation. Years back when I first entered this new world of progressive internet beekeeping, the question was ‘how to cross check the information?’ I decided it would be best to crosscheck everything by looking for it in the local ferals. In knowing that the ferals will have developed the necessary traits and behaviors essential and best suited for survival in my environment, this is the rule I follow. Local ferals give me clues as to what traits may be lacking in my bees and give me the direction, but also the ability to independently verify all information as to what is best for the bees in my local environment, and this practice has not failed me yet. The local ferals are my partners and also my competitors, so I like to keep track of want my competitors are doing, lest they come up with a good idea I haven’t thought of. My philosophy is that “it must exist in the fearls in my location for me to adopt it“. Small cell sizes I am seeing in the thriving ferals population here which indicate to me the direction to go, and upper end small cell sizes I do see towards the outside, but still not seeing verification that housel existing in feral nest construction in ‘voids’. Which ‘by rule of the feral’ is telling me is not essential for what is best for honeybees living in my environment. I’m not saying housel does not exist in open air nests or in other areas, it’s just not being observed by me in nests found in closed spaces of feral colonies in my area, still looking though. > Are periferies more attractive to mites with larger cells >laidout/culled to there; also with more slightly cooler in >hive temps, that then might make the bees chew out there >first, thus being maybe a more reproductive zone to watch >closer? If they, the bees can keep these spots in tact and >under control with first reactions there, then could mites >be kept away by the bees from the core of the working >broodnest for better control during active year? Being on small cell, I am not having any mites infesting worker brood until drone rearing ceases. At this time most mites are phoretic and are pressed for time and less choosey needing to find uncapped cells of a specific age, but the time in the phoretic stage increases the risk to the female varroa. Varroa on average spend about 7 days in the phoretic stage before entering a cell. And at this time, they must find a worker cell to invade at the age of about 5.5 days or between 30 and 60 hours prior to capping. This correlates to what I am seeing in that varroa invading of worker cells during the fall is highly dependant on where the proper aged larva happen to exist, and not so much dependant on the size of the cell she chooses to invade. So if larva of the proper age happen to be in the core, she will enter those cells, ‘’. Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 10:41:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: >Reply: >Meaning for suppression of bees immune system by mite? >Could it be less foragers for propolis to keep the >sterility of the broodnest intact? Or having propolis on >hand to bees to eat? According to research, it is less quality and quantity of pollen and yes I would imaging quality of propolis collected, plus mites, plus bacteria the cause. >So what causes colony death then actually with DFW virus? >What makes it kick in to hurt? or not hurt a hive? According to researchers a combination of varroa, DWV and harmful bacteria ALL need to be present for it to collapse a colony, and DWV and varroa needed to show symptoms of DWV. What >does it do to a hive with them running around this way >other then having an impact on division of labor for in >house cleaning duties, etc, or maybe shorten life of bees? According to research that a varroa infestation can affect quality and quantity of pollen foraged. So a long lived or division of labor in itself may not provide adequate remedy if the bees are not getting the quality and quality of nutrition they need to begin with. >Just what is meant by presence doesn't cause colony death? Just what I said, same as AFB can be present and not show clinical symptoms. viruses can be present and not cause death or show symptoms. Supporting this statement is research that found viruses present in “100% of the queens tested“. In examination of 10 queens, researchers found the viruses BQCV, CBPV, DWV, KBV, and SBV were present in one or more queen tissues. The presence of DWV and BQCV was found in 100% of the queens tested Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 18:20:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: PO Gustafsson Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline From: Chris Slade > I'm not sure that this would necessarily have the effect you assume. > Aren't you just selecting for resistance to 2 chemicals rather than > one if you continue to use fluvalinate annually? I realize I wasn't clear there. Should have said I made some random tests with oxalic to make sure fluvalinate is still working. No, I wouldn't use 2 different treatments if the first is working. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson pogust@gmail.com http://beeman.se -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 18:11:53 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Can it be fixed? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In Ireland there used to a think called a 'tinker patch' basically two metal disc and a screw with I think leather to make the seal. Ruary -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 20:02:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: PO Gustafsson Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline J Waggle wrote: > Presently doing just that! I have managed thru intense selection to get > 98% brood viability and still the colonies have a natural ability to keep > varroa populations at very small numbers. This season fall I managed a > harvest in spite of reports of a relatively bad fall flow from other > nearby beekeepers. May I ask how big crop you got average, compared to what you used to get before varroa? Lots of talk about varroa resistant bees, but is any of those claiming success also getting honey crops possible to make a living from? I have been selecting mainly for vitality and honey production. My average for the last 4 years has been 95 kg that the bees collect in 3 months during our short summer at lat 60. This is not possible without very strong colonies. This means prolific queens. Lots of brood, but also very good breeding ground for varroa. If I had less prolific bees, less honey, I would get less varroa. Simple maths. If I had really low reproducing bees I would not have to worry about varroa. But I would not make a living either... So, for us that are dependent on bees for our living, we need figures and facts, not dreams and visions. The difference between colony survival and a good honey crop is huge. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson pogust@gmail.com http://beeman.se -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 18:10:09 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Old honey, still good? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A paper presented at Apimondia 2005 showed that after 20 months the free acid, HMF and glycerol content continued to increase in honey whilst their was a increasing decline in moisture and lactones. Ruary -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 20:10:15 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Extractor feedback. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I looked at a used Maxant extractor today. It takes two sets of any size 5 frames (for a total of 10) and spins them out radially. The set-up is mounted on a horizontal shaft. Has anyone used this set-up? I'd welcome any input on your experiences with such a unit. I could also use any recommendations on any good extractors that hold several frames. I currently use a 3-frame tangential extractor. Thank you. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 16:07:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Varroa / Hypopharyngeal Gland Activity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: (Referring to glucose oxidase.) >I have never seen anything that shows it goes into "food" (pollen?). Hello Bill, I did the favor of digging up some references that show that glucose oxidase is found in pollen “food”. Reference A: “…Certain bacteriostatic effects have been demonstrated (Chauvin et al, 1952) but this is attributed to the addition of glucose oxidase (the same enzyme responsible for most antibacterial action in honey) by the honeybee when it mixes regurgitated honey or nectar with the pollen (Dustmann and Gunst, 1982). Therefore, this activity varies between pollen pellets and is much higher in beebread. A very slight antibacterial effect can also be detected in pollen collected by hand (Lavie, 1968)….” Reference B: “…All amino acids essential to humans (phenylalanine, leucine, valine, isoleucine, arginine, histidine, lysine, methionine, threonine and tryptophan) can be found in pollen and most others as well, with proline being the most abundant. Many enzymes (proteins) are also present but some, like glucose oxidase which is very important in honey. have been added by the bees. This enzyme is therefore more abundant in "beebread" than in fresh pollen pellets….” >Also it is not a bacterial inhibitor. It is an enzyme that oxidizes >glucose to gluconolactone which, in turn goes into equilibriums with >gluconic acid, the principal acid in honey. ‘GOx’ is a bacteria inhibitor, according to my references. Please find in ‘Reference C’ a quote concerning the anti bacterial agent found in honey and pollen known as glucose oxidase or ‘GOx‘. Reference C: “The evidence for the existence of other antibacterial factors is mainly that the peroxide-generating system does not account for all of the observed antibacterial activity, but there have also been some reports of isolation of antibacterial substances from honey that are not hydrogen peroxide. Furthermore, it has been found that heating honey, which inactivates the glucose oxidase, causes loss of activity against some species whilst it is retained against others.” >What "harmful bacteria" are we talking about? As far as I am aware, researchers have not determined that as of yet and I won’t make any assumptions here. They state this on the page I submit as Reference D: Reference D: “Other researchers have shown that both harmful and harmless bacteria may infect the feeding location." http://www.psu.edu/ur/2005/beemite.html >The main issue with glucose oxidase in honey is more in its breakdown >products acting as a preservative to prevent fermentation, especially at >the honey/air/moisture interface. When honey is "thin" it will ferment Louis Pasteur made a discovery that fermentation is caused by a ‘bacteria‘. > Varroa have nothing to do with it. BTDT. Not getting what you mean by BTDT? Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 17:01:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe Waggle writes: Being on small cell, I am not having any mites infesting worker brood until drone rearing ceases. Reply: This is understandable, so where is the drone brood on your frames and positioned by you in your broodnests throughout the active year then? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Get an Online or Campus degree Associate's, Bachelor's, or Master's - in less than one year. http://www.findtherightschool.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 17:10:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting?? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe Waggle writes: I will generally see a center comb develop with a horizontal cell type construction. ..... the rest of the combs built in voids will have cells will be positioned vertically and in an arrangement that I can only describe as a haphazard cell comb orientation. Reply: Well this is good then you are seeing the non-directional type center, but haven't seen the Y down butting one yet so that one you will have to keep looking for as you do cutouts. It is also good the rest are positioned vertically. I can only imagine the haphazard cell transitional until things jell more in your area in years to come. Sure glad you are watching and keeping track. This said a lot what you wrote. Best Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 23:36:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Joe_Hayles?= Subject: Old honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A friend just gave me several gallons of very old honey. It is dark and very strong tasting. Is it safe to feed it to the colonies over winter? Thanks,,, Joe in S. AL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---