From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:31:18 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-80.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST,WHY_WAIT autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E89A49099 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SF1MMW014128 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:50 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0611B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 201247 Lines: 4764 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 07:46:38 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Old honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It would depend on under what conditions it has stored, and just how old is very old? Ruary >A friend just gave me several gallons of very old honey. Is it safe to >feed it to the colonies over winter? > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 07:29:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anne Brennan Subject: Re: Old honey In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed At 11:36 PM -0500 11/7/06, Joe Hayles wrote: >A friend just gave me several gallons of very old honey. It is dark and >very strong tasting. Is it safe to feed it to the colonies over winter? Joe, I am a new beekeeper and wondered about feeding honey to my bees, as it seemed "more natural" than sugar syrup. I was advised never to feed honey from other hives (including store-bought honey) back to colonies because it can introduce American Foulbrood spores to your colony. I don't know how likely this actually is, but considering the possible consequences, I have decided not to do it. Sorry to be negative, but it's something to factor into your decision. I look forward to responses from others on the list. Regards, Anne in PA -- -------------------------------- Anne Brennan anne.brennan@verizon.net -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 08:38:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Joe_Hayles?= Subject: Old honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The honey I posted about is about 10 years or older. Very dark and not at all tasty. Thanks,,, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 09:06:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Old honey In-Reply-To: <200611081356.kA8DaLu7028332@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'd not feed it to my bees. First, as others have pointed out, AFB spores are (or should) always be a concern when feeding honey of unknown origin. Honey is the most common vector in the spread of AFB. Secondly, the old honey may cause dysentery in your bees. You might get away with it in Alabama where your bees can take regular cleansing flights throughout the winter. Up here in the great white north it would be a death sentence. Why go there? Posted Tuesday in the "Old honey - still good?" thread was this frim Dick Allen: "I have an earlier edition of Leslie Bailey's 'Honey Bee Pathology'. Bailey writes on some of the causes of dysentery and has this to say: 'Even honey that has been stored at ambient temperatures for several years causes dysentery and shortens the lives of bees compared with those fed on sucrose.'" Aaron Morris - thinking out with the old, feed HFCS! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 09:25:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Can it be fixed? In-Reply-To: <200611071824.kA7Ch2tR005032@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks to all who responded to my query. Probably the "best" fix is brazing the pin hole. Not having the equipment and time (I'm in the middle of extracting and need it NOW!), I went the epoxy route. Epoxy puddy, workable for 5 minutes, set in 10, final cure in an hour, and I was back in business. So far, so good. I don't know how it'll make out long term, but for now it's sufficient. Perhaps I'll fix it properly in the off-season. Nah, I'll forget about it until the next time it's a problem! I was reminded to make sure to empty the canister when not in use; that sitting water is probably what did it in. Guilty as charged. Aaron Morris - thinking out of sight, out of mind! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 09:55:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Brian_Fredericksen?= Subject: Re: Old honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit With heat and or time HMF (hydroxy-methyl-furfural) is formed in honey. This compound is what makes honey un-usable as feed for bees. See this link for some limited info http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/hmf.html As a rule I only feed back honey from the current year. Why take a chance when you can buy corn syrup for around 15-20 cents a pound? The only use for large quanitities of old honey that come to mind would be to sell it as bear bait during hunting season or if you sell at a farmers market as bottom feeder bait (folks looking for cheap honey where price is the only factor in their buying descision) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 08:11:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: Old honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am very hesitant to feed honey from any source back to my bees. Can you be sure it does not have disease spores (AFB) If you think it might have been from "clean" hives are you sure the extractor etc were clean. Make mead from it or use it in baking Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 09:30:01 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Can it be fixed? In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092109A650E7@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Water is the universal solvent. It is both an acid and a base concurrently and will, although usually slowly, react with any material that reacts with acids and/or bases. Some elements react with water quite explosively, those generally found on the far left of the periodic table, such as sodium. Sodium in fact is VERY explosive when joined with water OR free oxygen. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:47:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Can it be fixed? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Scot Mc Pherson wrote: >Water is the universal solvent. It is both an acid and a base concurrently Broadly speaking, freshwater may be neutral, acid, or alkaline. The neutrality of water, or its degree of acidity or alkalinity, is known as its pH value. Much mystery has been made about the pH value of water, but, in reality, there is nothing very mysterious about it, nor is the subject so complicated, as some would have us believe. The pH value can be defined as 'a number used to express the concentration of ionised hydrogen in an aqueous fluid and is thus indicative of the reaction of that fluid, that is, the neutrality or the degree of acidity or alkalinity'. According to the theory of electrolytic dissociation all liquids of which water is a constituent contain free, positively charged hydrogen (H+) ions and negatively charged hydroxyl (OH-) ions. When the amount of these two ions present in a liquid is exactly balanced the liquid is said to be neutral. If there be an excess of hydrogen (H+) ions the liquid is acid, and conversely if the hydroxyl (OH-) ions be in excess, it is alkaline. Absolute neutrality has a pH value of 7.07 (usually taken as 7.0). http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/pH.htm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 07:42:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Old honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was advised never to feed honey from other hives (including store-bought honey) back to colonies because it can introduce American Foulbrood spores to your colony. I don't know how likely this actually is, but considering the possible consequences, I have decided not to do it. Reply: This has been gone over and over. Honey fed that the bees digest does not cause foul brood in itself for it is contained in the honey and then digested in the gut of the honeybee. HOney bought in stores can be fed and I have never seen a case of anyone doing so get their healthy hives sick. It is the robbing out of infected colonies where spores get on the bodies of the bees that then gets into cells of workerbrood that causes the problem. respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Try Netflix today! With plans starting at only $5.99 a month what are you waiting for? http://www.netflix.com/Signup?mqso=80010030 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 13:33:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Old honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Honey bought in stores can be fed and I have never seen a case of anyone doing so get their healthy hives sick. Comment: Very bad advice. Do not heed this. Honey from unknown sources should never be fed to bees. There is never a good reason to do this. Sugar is cheap and wholesome for honey bees. Their nutritional needs are primarily satisfied from fresh pollen, anyway. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 13:10:52 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Old honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pollen is the primary nutritive source for larvae, sugar is the primary nutritive source for adult bees. However, some pollen is digested by the bees, and honey is an ingredient of the bread given to larvae. And, like I asked Bob a few weeks ago, how would you like living on potatoes and beans an your sole food? You won't be very healthy for very long. Plants need only hydration and light to live, but they don't do well except for some of the very simple plants like algae which also DO show much improvement with vitamins. Plants need iron even though its not a primary food source. Bees have their own trace requirements, like we need iodine, and plants need iron...are these well known? No, unless you happen to be a doctor or botonist OR if you are concerned about your own health, the ecology, environment and study these things. No living things in nature are provided with purity of any sort, we evolved all of us over millions and millions of years with factors and traces and those factors and traces have become part of our requirements, same with the bees, same with the trees, same with us. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 13:48:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Feeding honey to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The drawbacks of feeding honey: "Usually diluted. Ferments rapidly; feed only the amount that will be removed from feeder within 48 hours." "Proven ability to spread American foulbrood (AFB) when taken from a contaminated hive. The spores remain alive and infectious for decades in honey, in combs, and on used equipment." On the other hand, 1 to 1 sugar syrup: "stimulates oviposition, encourages brood rearing, ensures drawing combs from foundation." from "Beekeeping in California" by Eric Mussen, Len Foote, Norman Gary, Harry Laidlaw, Robbin Thorpe, Lee Watkins pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 14:45:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Oxalic respirator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, I plan to treat some of my hives with oxalic acid using a vaporiser. The supplier tells me I need a mask FFP 3 S/L. I can see no reference to this in my cataloge of respirators. Could some one advise me to which type of protection I should use? Thanks, Peter (Canada) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:01:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Old honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Scot Mc Pherson wrote: >Pollen is the primary nutritive source for larvae, sugar is the primary >nutritive source for adult bees. However, some pollen is digested by the >bees, and honey is an ingredient of the bread given to larvae. Right. What I said was an oversimplification. But there simply is no credible evidence that bees on a diet of real pollen and cane sugar will suffer. Whatever trace elements there are in honey, are not required by them for their survival nor their prosperity. Furthermore, some impurities in honey can caused illness in overwintering colonies. To follow the human nutrition metaphor: sure, if you only ate white bread instead of whole wheat, you would miss out on the protein and vitamins in the natural grain. But if you put cheese, lettuce, tomatoes, and onions on the bread, you'll do fine. Honey is only the energy component of bees' diet and does not supply a meaningful amount of vitamins and minerals. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 19:55:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter, What about other books with entries on how to process for foul contamination in wax for reuse, neutralize woodenware, and give honey for feeding, as it digests in the bees gut the spores. For while your reference is to the negative for never to touch, there are others written with how to, in a different vein for how to handle. Just POV of the writers it would seem.... Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 19:58:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Old honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter, Sugar is also a good crutch to keep one from seriously going organic also........along with other things in the way of IPM with watered down soft chemicals... LIke I said I have never seen honey fed give a case of AFB, but perhaps your situation is different which those you know. Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 20:04:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Can it be fixed? In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092109A650E7@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron: Well the hot water heater is now fixed and hooked up to the silver queen extractor. It was simply fixed for small hole with "JB weld epoxy" though Jerry said "PC7" probably could have been used also, mixing with both is one to one. Cost for JB weld is about $5 by the way. PC7 is more costly...... Any way it is setting next to siver queen now with new hose lines on for circulating hot water thru the uncapper so I have no reason for not working now..... Respectfully submitted Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 14:56:34 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Usually diluted. Ferments rapidly; feed only the amount that will be removed from feeder within 48 hours." Honey should not be fed diluted. The reason why people dilute it is because the bees take it up quicker. They do because it's more like nectar when diluted, however feed pure undiluted honey, the bees will take it up slower and store it the way they do when combs break and make a mess or when a beekeeper makes a sticky mess in the hive. Making syrup 1:1 has the effects it does in brooding and comb building because it simulates nectar, diluting honey will do the same thing, and any syrup that simulates honey will have the same effect. HOWEVER, for winter feeding, we aren't trying to stimulate buildup, we are augmenting stores for winter, the honey should be stored and ready for use, not have to be processed and dried first. Sure bees have brood turnover for winter, but I don't want them stimulated into spring brooding because they think nectar is abundent. Also, sugar water is just as susceptible to fermenting as diluted honey is. However, yeasts do do better in diluted honey because of the nitrgen content and trace elements, which you say honey has so little of that it makes no difference. Anyone who ferments beverages can tell you what yeasts will do in different environments. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 07:31:33 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Old honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Honey fed that the bees > digest does not cause foul brood in itself for it is > contained in the honey and then digested in the gut of the > honeybee. What about the honey that is stored in the cells? This contains the AFB spores and is available to be fed to the young larvae which will in turn get AFB. Hives being feed are expected to store some and not just consume what is being fed to them. Bought honey should not be fed to bees. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Have a look at www.apimondia2007.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 17:17:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Law Subject: Beeman in Japan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Beeman in Japan http://funhight.blogspot.com/2006/08/beeman-in-japan.html -- Dennis Law ( aka Paul D. Law ) Brooklyn South Community Emergency Response Team Logistics Section -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 19:30:53 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Peter Borst et al: Question: So does this mean that honey from my hives crystallized in one pound sour cream containers ( from skimming the top off the good stuff) is harmful if I invert them on top of the frames in the spring? -remember that it comes from the same comb with sticky frames that is put back on the hives and or allowed to be robbed out in the fall before storing them. -besides, crystallized honey is put in nuc boxes for food source while they wait for the queen cells to hatch -never had foulbrood nor anyone in the area. Walter Ontario -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 19:34:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Old honey In-Reply-To: <006b01c70369$a3f46220$0700a8c0@workstation> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot Mc Pherson wrote: >how would you like living on potatoes and >beans an your sole food? You won't be very healthy for very long. > > Given that you didn't evolve to eat sch a diet, you would do poorly. Honeybees on the other hand evolved to use pollen as a source of protein, fats vitamins and minerals. Nectar and honey as a CHO source. >Plants need only hydration and light to live, > This is simply incorrect. > but they don't do well >except for some of the very simple plants like algae which also DO show >much improvement with vitamins. > Methinks you are slightly misusing the definition of vitamin. Having said that plants certainly do require more than hydration and light to live. There are many substances, both macro and micronutrients that they require. Algae too. >Bees have their own trace requirements, like we need iodine, and plants >need iron...are these well known? No, unless you happen to be a doctor >or botonist OR if you are concerned about your own health, the ecology, >environment and study these things. > > Tell me - what can be found in honey that cannot be found in pollen, except for CHO that is necessary for bee health? >No living things in nature are provided with purity of any sort, we >evolved all of us over millions and millions of years with factors and >traces and those factors and traces have become part of our >requirements, same with the bees, same with the trees, same with us. > > I don't think anyone disputes that animals including insecta require many different substances. Temember that they tolerate a great many others and these are not requirements. The point is - bees use nectar for CHOs, i.e.e simply calories, and pollen for the other stuff. In fact they go to great lengths to keep the two largely separated. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 10:59:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: [WL] [BEE-L] Oxalic respirator In-Reply-To: <000601c703a0$a3e20da0$c35ed4c7@homepc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This message was originally submitted by keithb.forsyth@HWCN.ORG to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. -----Original Message----- From: Keith B. Forsyth [mailto:keithb.forsyth@hwcn.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 8:44 PM To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Subject: Re: [WL] [BEE-L] Oxalic respirator Try calling 3M Canada 1-800-265-1840 (ext. 6137). I think this is their ag.safety division. 3M is not the only full face piece respirator manufacturer, but it might be a start. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 18:43:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Oxalic respirator In-Reply-To: <003301c7036e$83ed4780$3281a9d1@user> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter John Keating wrote: >Greetings, > I plan to treat some of my hives with oxalic acid using a vaporiser. Could some one advise me to which type of >protection I should use? > > Manufacturers of vaporizers claim, of course, that vaporizers are safe to operate. For (I assume) an independent opinion, Gumpp, et al. (2003), in Germany, found that “By appropriate use there is no risk to the health of the apiarist.” Their feeling was that the OA vapor quickly recondenses into an aerosol of tiny crystals, which are less dangerous than a vapor. They suggest wearing safety goggles, acid proof gloves, and a disposable cloth dust/mist mask equivalent to NIOSH N95 (“N95” will be stamped on the front—they cost anywhere from $12-$36 from Conney.com). Gumpp, et al. 2003 Evaporation of oxalic acid—a safe method for the user? http://www.alp.admin.ch/themen/00502/00515/00519/index.html?lang=en Randy Oliver > > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 22:38:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Joe_Hayles?= Subject: Old honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks to all who replied to my post about old honey. I should have known that the issue had been addressed earlier. Being somewhat of a newbie, I did not search the archives. Next time, I will. Thanks again. I will not feed this or any other honey to my bees. Maybe I can use it to mix with hay and cotton seed to feed the cows. I bet that issue hasn't been addressed already.... Take care,,, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 00:03:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting ?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello P.O., You and I have discussed the virus subject before. I have learned quite a bit since we last talked. Private research is way ahead of published research. In the first years of varroa Dr. Shiminuki simply called the virus problems associated with varroa "Parasitic Mite Syndrum" (PMS) because little was known. Simply bee lab ID of a problem without providing a solution. Or even looking for a solution. In fact the U.S. bee labs were of little help. U.S. Commercial beekeepers looked to the U.K. ( Brenda Ball & Norman Carrick and the work of Bailey) for help. After countless samples were shipped and countless phone calls and emails the virus issue began to fall in place. Dr. Carrick let me read his virus presntation before publication. The U.K. is light years ahead of U.S. bee labs on the virus issue. Also willing to help U.S. commercial beekeepers learn about virus issues. They sent pages and pages of research most of which I have read. The virus trail has led to the place we are at now. Virus spore contamination of comb. Never talked about on BEE-L but hinted at by me. What you report seeing now is what we started seeing a decade ago. Low varroa counts but bees with DWV, PMS signs and hives crashing. We still have got researchers going from bee meeting to bee meeting telling beekeepers the exact number of varroa in a test in order to tell when to treat. None ever speak of virus issues. What you saw with survivor bees ( Russian) is what I saw after four years. Bees with small clusters are much better able to survive varroa than prolific bees. We were certain of the fact from the late 80's. When you take a large number of hives and leave untreated (Live and let die method) then the result is always the same. Hive of bees which is not prolific ARE the survivors! The Russian imports are a mixed bag in imported form but have one important thing in common. The Russians keep a small cluster and shut down with every change of the weather. I have found a few exceptions to the rule in Russian stock but so far F2 offspring have returned to being not prolific. Reason I dropped both Russian bees and survivor stock. I still have got a yard of possible prolific survivor queens but am not holding my breath. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. I was going to send the above directly to P.O. but thought at the last minute the list might find of interest. The above has nothing to do with small cell! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 07:37:08 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Oxalic respirator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter, could you explain why you want to use a vaporiser. I have heard several experts talks and they all agree that trickling is safer for the operator and one person says that he can trickle faster that vaporise. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter John Keating" > Greetings, > I plan to treat some of my hives with oxalic acid using a vaporiser. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 21:00:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Oxalic respirator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > The supplier tells me I need a mask FFP 3 S/L. I can see no reference to this > in my cataloge of respirators. Could some one advise me to which type of > protection I should use? A little obscure Haz-Mat trivia is appropriate here... They referenced an outdated European spec, "EN149 circa 1991", which included separate designations for "Solid" (S) and "Solid and Liquid" (SL). EN149 circa 2001 raised the standards, requiring all particulate respirators to have protection against both "solid" (non-oil) and "liquid" (oil) aerosols, making the individual "S" and "SL" designations obsolete, and simplifying things to FFP1, FFP2, and FFP3, with all being capable of handling both "solids" and "liquids" in all their various forms. So, you want an "FFP3" respirator, if such designations exist in Canada. If not, you want at least something equal to the older "FFP3 SL" designation. You do not want the old "FFP3 S" designation, as oxalic vapor would be "liquid", regardless of which specs were lying about. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 07:08:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Honey a Safe, Satisfying and Effective Healing Agent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Honey a 'Safe, Satisfying and Effective Healing Agent' Wound Healing With Honey--A Randomised Controlled Trial South African Medical Journal, 2006 Sep;96(9):831-5 SEE: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 07:26:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Old honey In-Reply-To: <002a01c7037d$44918010$9090453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor, So your sold honey should not be fed to bees then you are saying? Shouldn't it be taught in meetings that badly affected honey should be marked and sold if at all as baking honey and not good quality honey or used for other purposes..... very little is normally extracted and normally one would think set aside from normal selling routes. But again, haven't seen it a problem with boughten honey, or honey from other locals. It's the robbing of honey that bees do for food gathering, and then the weaker yes sometimes don't make it, while the strong it doesn't seem to bother, but then normally it is the stronger ones that are healthy and can handle, that clean out the weaker that are sick and life goes on. This is how nature cleans up the mess. Regards, Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:25:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <20061109035512.28783.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > Peter, > What about other books with entries on how to process for > foul contamination in wax for reuse, neutralize woodenware, > and give honey for feeding, as it digests in the bees gut > the spores. The following is from the Hive and the Honey Bee and is a synopsis, not direct quotes. First, it is not he adult bee that is infected but 1 to 3 day old larva from AFB in the spore stage. It is in the honey fed to the larva. One spore is enough to infect a larva. Beekeepers often spread the disease by feeding honey or pollen. AFB can remain viable indefinitely. It is also interesting that different races of bees can handle AFB better than others, such as Africanized Honey Bees, found in places like Arizona and Texas. Now I am talking- If your honey is disease free, then there is no problem feeding it in the summer or late spring. But if the honey has granulated, you will take losses, but they will not be noticed because of the buildup during those periods. Fed as a winter feed in a cold climate, you will take a much larger hit unless the honey is mostly sugar with little else. This has been talked about at length, just check the archives. Plus there is lots of science that backs it up, not anecdotal assumptions. For me, the overriding fact is why play Russian roulette with your bees. The honey is fine for human consumption. My first honey (from my hives that I purchased and then burned up when AFB was found) was contaminated with AFB. Tasted fine. I turned the wax into candles. I did all the right things with the remaining boxes to "sterilize" them. But every time I saw one of those boxes, I worried that maybe some spores were not killed. All the boxes are all gone now, but I would have had more peace if I just threw them into the wood stove. Most of the issues here are back to the White Death (sugar), HFCS winter feed vs. "organic" beekeepers. Lots of that in the archives. I suggest reading it in the dead of winter since the heat generated will really cut your heating bill. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:37:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: Old honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Sugar is also a good crutch to keep one from seriously going organic also......<< Help me understand what is not organic about sugar?? Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:49:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: Old honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone found a way to disinfect hard surfaced items such as extractors, uncapping knives etc. Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 10:15:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Walter Zimmermann wrote: >To Peter Borst et al: >Question: >So does this mean that honey from my hives is harmful No. If you have your own honey and you are certain that it is disease free, you could use it. I just don't see any point. You would be better off selling the honey and buying sugar. Look, I raised thousands of queens back in the 1980s, and have I worked for beekeepers who regularly purchase semi-loads of sugar. This is a common practice and is not harmful. Feeding honey, on the other hand, brings a host of problems. Fresh sugar syrup does not contain significant quantities of yeast and does not ferment readily, as does honey. It will eventually, of course. The very smell of honey syrup stimulates robbing; much less a problem with syrup, though you shouldn't be careless with it. The economics of feeding honey is obvious; it's a case of penny-wise and pound-foolish, IMHO. The only reason I enter these discussions is to try to correct *bad information*. I can back up everything I say with reputable references. I simply don't equate that with "because I say so" anecdotes. "Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice: What I tell you three times is true." pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:49:06 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Burgess Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting ?? In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 05:03:08 -0000, Bob Harrison wrote: > > In fact the U.S. bee labs were of little help. U.S. Commercial beekeepers > looked to the U.K. ( Brenda Ball & Norman Carrick and the work of Bailey) > for help. Regretably, both Brenda Ball and Norman Carreck have been "let go" from Rothamsted Research as a result of budget cutbacks. As far as I know the work on viruses has come to an end. John Burgess -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 12:23:37 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Old honey In-Reply-To: <004601c7040e$4b08f540$6501a8c0@DanJan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Use a commercial sanitizing agent... -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 14:33:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting ?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello John, Always amazes me when such important research is dropped. Research in the U.S. is fueled by companies wanting to make a buck on beekeepers. Research on virus and on comb contamination sparks little interest at the bee labs. The labs do not even want to test our brood comb for contamination even though our tax dollars bought the mass spec machines. Wax contamination from years of using legal chemical strips (they recommended) and virus spore problems from failed controls IS the number one & two problems facing the larger beekeepers today. Comb replacement is the only solution but if the labs can not tell the beekeeper when the time to replace is then most commercial beekeepers are in the dark. The bee labs need to set up a department which can evaluate comb samples for chemical levels and for virus spore levels and which viruses. Beltsville tossed my last samples sent from commercial beekeepers for amount of wax contamination. Brenda Ball was taking U.S. samples and reporting virus levels and which viruses were present. I guess we will not be able to get wax tested in the U.K. now. Beltsville recommended private testing to me. Do beekeepers on BEE-L know of a private lab doing testing? have you had wax tested? If so what were the costs and turn around time? Are other beekeepers looking into brood comb chemical contamination as the root of some commercial beekeepers problems? Are others seeing packages hived on comb from hives which crashed from varroa ( showing PMS signs) crash again within a few months with a varroa load not considered high ( such as P O said he is seeing)? Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 10:38:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: AFB disinfection of extracting equipment In-Reply-To: <004601c7040e$4b08f540$6501a8c0@DanJan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dan&jan wrote: Has anyone found a way to disinfect hard surfaced items such as extractors, uncapping knives etc. Disinfect your extractor and uncapping box with a pressure washer with water hooked up to a hot water feed. Put a filter in before your pressure washer and it's a good way to clean out the bottom of your hot water heater. What you want to do is knock all the solids that have collected in your equipment off. It's in the solids that the AFB spores will remain. Those in the honey will be washed out by a thorough washing with hot sudsy water with some bleach thrown in just for good measure. The bleach won't kill the spores of AFB, but will do the job on other organisms. Scrub your uncapping knife with a soft abrasive (Think maybe baking soda might do) after washing thoroughly with soap and water. Rinse thoroughly. These comments are open to discussion, amendments, additions, and/or deletions. Mike in LA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 20:06:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Oxalic respirator In-Reply-To: <007001c703d1$dcbb9e80$0101a8c0@DF9MK81J> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-348854F0 > could you explain why you want to use a vaporiser....and one person can > trickle faster that vaporise. I'll tell you I vaporize, rather than trickle. Winter! OA by any application method, must be used when the colony is broodless. That means waiting until the middle of November, and even then there will be some colonies with brood. My hives are multiple stories...usually 3. I wrap my hives for winter. To trickle with OA, the hive must be taken apart, giving the bees in each box some of the solution. Which means not wrapping the hives until after treatment. Now, if I wait to wrap my hives until after I treat, there is a good chance that I may not be able to get to my bee yards. I expect snow any day now, and probably enough to prevent me from driving into many of them. With OA(v), I can get wrapped...should finish this weekend...and then I can treat. Carrying...or tobogganing...the vaporizers and batteries into a yard is way easier than trying to carry in all the wrapping materials and carrying out any feeders or extra equipment from unites, etc. As to speed...two of us can treat 150 colonies a day. Trickling may be faster with 1or 2 story colonies, but with 3 story colonies packed with bees? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.27/517 - Release Date: 11/3/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 14:11:07 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <20061109035512.28783.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote:What about other books with entries on ....... When were the books published? Have newer publications repudiated the statements of the previous books and/or previous editions? Situations change as we gain knowledge, mostly through controlled testing, sometimes anecdotally. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:07:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting ?? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison writes: Wax contamination from years of using legal chemical strips (they recommended) and virus spore problems from failed controls IS the number one & two problems facing the larger beekeepers today. Reply: Then may I recommend, to advise to change the combs out, and at same time replace with SC foundation and or HSC plastic fully drawn out frames when retooling of SC size, so at same time to reduce the level of mite problems and secondary diseases, so contamination might not build up so fast except where sprayed in mirgatory pollenation by (get-this) accident. Since might have to do anyways, nothing ventured, nothing gained.. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:15:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter, The very smell of honey syrup stimulates robbing; much less a problem with syrup, though you shouldn't be careless with it. Reply: There is a time and a place for honey syrup, probably in the spring if at all for stimulating broodrearing, but in the fall going into winter, one feeds granulated honey or honey still in the comb to those hives needing it. Many stores sell granulated honey cheaper, and at bargins, as for some reason many have been taught that honey has to be liquified to be sold........ Feeding granulated honey generally does not get bees robbing as normally the containers fed are filled prior to arriving at the hives and are simply put inside. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oganicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:19:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Brian_Fredericksen?= Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Most of the issues here are back to the White Death (sugar), HFCS winter feed vs. "organic" beekeepers. Lots of that in the archives. I suggest reading it in the dead of winter since the heat generated will really cut your heating bill. > >Bill Truesdell >Bath, Maine > >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- >===================================================== ==================== I agree...what I don't undestand is the organic folks have their own board. Why not stay over there and leave the Bee List board free of the sniping and back and forth on the same old stuff. Its like Jehovah's Witness here with viewpoints that are unpopular being shoved in our face all the time. Not once mind you but over and over and over again. I don't go over to the organic board and raise cane...I disagree with many of their viewpoints so I stay away. It seems like a cult like fervor of wanting to change the bee world. Its odd......and kind of detracts from the topics and info of interest that so many beekeepers engage in here. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:05:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Brian_Fredericksen?= Subject: Re: Oxalic respirator Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 07:37:08 -0000, Ruary Rudd wrote: >Hi Peter, > >could you explain why you want to use a vaporiser. I have heard several >experts talks and they all agree that trickling is safer for the operator >and one person says that he can trickle faster that vaporise. This was recently discussed at length on the board last month (safety and vaporizing vs trickle). In northern areas we can have brood present into early winter. Oxalic Acid wether dripped or vaporized is most effective when no capped brood is present. Hence if that broodless period is in winter when hives are already wrapped vaporizing is much easier then unwrapping and opening a hive in 30-40F weather. Note: it must be above freezing to use any of the two OA delivery methods. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 19:30:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Beeman in Japan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Beeman in Japan > >http://funhight.blogspot.com/2006/08/beeman-in-japan.html The movie is better than the book. :) http://today.reuters.com/tv/videoChannel.aspx? storyid=b77dbd444430f6c6c940241541c28c5897f32284 Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 06:58:47 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Old honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A thirty minute soak in a 50% solution of milton will do the job for you. Unfortunately it will also attack metalware Ruary > Has anyone found a way to disinfect extractors, uncapping knives etc. > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:53:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: PO Gustafsson Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting ?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello Bob, First I should explain that we managed to keep varroa away for a long time with a zone system in Sweden. Bees were not allowed to be moved from infected area to uninfected. This made it possible for me to stay free of varroa until about 5 years ago. So what I see now is what you experienced long ago. I have cooperated with prof Ingemar Fries at Uppsala university in some research projects. Latest involved how DWV is transfered from one generation to the next. Not allowed to say more until Ingemar has got it published. They are improving their tests for virus, and are now able to detect how much virus there is in a sample. Ingemar suggested they would test some material from me to monitor virus levels. I hope I will have the time next summer to do a proper research project, but I'm afraid my time will bee needed managing my bees for honey. I would like to study if there is any way to select for bees that can handle higher virus infections. > The virus trail has led to the place we are at now. Virus spore > contamination of comb. Do you know of any research on this? How long DWV are active on a comb. > When you take a large number of hives and leave untreated (Live and let die > method) then the result is always the same. Hive of bees which is not > prolific ARE the survivors! Yes that's what I believe too. Those bees will not be useful for anything other than pets. I had hoped that those on the list making claims that they have the solution were really making progress. So far I see no proof of it. On the contrary, by breeding for less productive bees there is a risk they turn the clock backwards instead. Brian_Fredericksen wrote: > It seems like a cult like fervor of wanting to change the bee world. Its > odd......and kind of detracts from the topics and info of interest that so > many beekeepers engage in here. I fully agree with this. After reading this list for near 15 years I been close to logging off lately. But then I realized those things come and go. We all remember the FGMO discussion. Different this time is the amazing talent by some of the participants to mix fact and fiction into a stew so thick even the most determent opponent eventually gives up from exhaustion. Quite amusing sometimes... But this list is about bee biology. Pet theory has it's own list. Personally I would appreciate if those favoring pet theory was considering discussing their theories on the appropriate place, and let us here continue with what this list was created for. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson pogust@gmail.com http://beeman.se -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:25:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Oxalic respirator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I didn't want to re-open the discussion on oxalic treatments. Thanks to Mike for explaining why I would be treating with a vaporiser, and thanks to Randy and James for the info. I should have been more precise in my question - should I use a half face or a full face respirator? I am looking at a 3M-7500 half or a 3M-6000 full. It's not a question of expense, but whether I wish to be alive and well after fumigating the bees! Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:16:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <20061110021532.49938.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > There is a time and a place for honey syrup, probably in > the spring if at all for stimulating broodrearing, but in > the fall going into winter, one feeds granulated honey or > honey still in the comb to those hives needing it. A classic response from a warm winter beekeeper. It will work in the south but not in the northern cold winters. A note of caution to those new on the list. Beekeeping, like politics, is local. What works in the south does no always work in the north. in fact, the advice above may kill off or seriously weaken your northern winter colony. I learned early from Tony Jadczak and George Imire about the essential nature of the kind of honey to go into a northern winter. Honey that granulates quickly is poor winter feed, as is honey with a high ash content. Granulated honey does not go into a liquid state all at once, but you get a slow transition especially in cold weather. This transition allows the honey to ferment and harms the bees. High ash content honey promotes dysentery as the bees have more solids in their gut and, without those southern cleansing flights, poop inside the hive. Many fall honeys have a high ash content. Most summer honey does not. You can prevent both by good honey management (which is labor intensive since it requires two extraction times, a technique posted many times in the archives). Before I shifted to managing the kind of honey my bees overwinter on, I would lose half my colonies every winter. Since then, I seldom lose a colony. Plus, the yields from each colony have tripled. If you do not care to expend the effort as a hobby beekeeper, just use HCFS or sugar syrup for winter feed, both of which have been shown to be the best winter feed through scientific studies. Plus, you only have to extract once. I do not feed anything in winter, even the white death. With good "stores" management, they have plenty to overwinter on. I do use sugar candy in the spring as insurance, mostly because of brooding up when long cold spells can happen. Another northern problem that southerners do not have. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:45:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: The list In-Reply-To: <2db732bf0611100253m2bca1553o4015ae4f0e7cd5ad@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PO Gustafsson wrote: > > After reading this list for near 15 years I > been close to logging off lately. But then I realized those things > come and go. We all remember the FGMO discussion. Different this time > is the amazing talent by some of the participants to mix fact and > fiction into a stew so thick even the most determent opponent > eventually gives up from exhaustion. Quite amusing sometimes... But > this list is about bee biology. Pet theory has it's own list. > Personally I would appreciate if those favoring pet theory was > considering discussing their theories on the appropriate place, and > let us here continue with what this list was created for. > As another 15 year plus member, I also was about to hang it up. But you really cannot let bad information go unchecked. The list is still "informed" beekeeping. Plus, sometimes there is gold in the dross, and it should not be discarded but appreciated and examined (which is the part that causes them problems). I was strongly in the organic movement in Maine, but learned early that there are really two organic movements. One is rational and based on good science while the other is faith based. In Maine, science tends to have the upper hand, but some times will be overruled by the zealots. What has happened is money trumps faith. To survive in the marketplace, there must be compromises and some of the organic practices are just as chemical based as any commercial farmer. I see the same here on the BeeL. The little hobby and fringe beekeepers are the defenders of purity, while those who must make a living from it recognize the realities of the marketplace. So I do not mind the chatter, but I do mind a lack of facts to back up posts. But then, anecdotal evidence always trumps the facts. BTW, if you ever look me up in Maine, just look for a 25 year old Adonis, winner of the Nobel prize, and NFL quarterback (I use the name Tom Brady) . After all, you read this on the BeeL so it must be true. Bill Truesdell (who is actually 26, but everything else is true. Just disregard the man behind the curtain.) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 20:35:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <20061109221107.30266.qmail@web53406.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike: Have newer publications repudiated the statements of the previous books and/or previous editions? Reply: Not that I know of, if you find any let me know. Regards Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 20:23:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Oxalic respirator In-Reply-To: <003401c704cb$b58f7b60$d080a9d1@user> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2AD43D4C > >should I use a half face or a full face respirator? I use a half face, with replaceable filters. he kind used by auto painters. Mike -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.27/517 - Release Date: 11/3/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:56:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: USDA and Honey prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Has there been any comment made to the USDA regarding this withdrawal of the service detailed below . > http://www.apitrack.com Click on US Prices "National Honey Report Starting in their report number XXVI #9 issued on October 11, 2006 the USDA isn´t providing any more detailed information about honey import statistics, publishing only information about prices paid per pound to certain countries, without any specification about the corresponding period." Regards, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 09:39:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <455497D7.5010708@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill & all > I learned early from Tony Jadczak and George Imire about the > essential nature of the kind of honey to go into a northern > winter. Honey that granulates quickly is poor winter feed, as > is honey with a high ash content. You are putting all the blame on the honey, when you should consider using bees that can cope with the conditions that you expect to keep them in. Bees that are natural inhabitants of northern climates can handle the types of honey that are available normally in that area. So instead of using bees that have been imported from southern climates, generate your own strains from those that can survive the conditions. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 10:10:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees Comments: To: Dee Lusby Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: >Mike: >Have newer publications repudiated the statements of the >previous books and/or previous editions? > >Reply: >Not that I know of, if you find any let me know. Comment: One of my heroes was A. I. Root. I have many editions of his "ABC & XYZ of Beekeeping". His goal was to provide the best information possible, and even once he had done that, he invited other people to read and correct it. In the back of his early books are long sections by other authors, notably C. C. Miller and G. M. Doolittle. In this sections, they comment on specific pages where the information is wrong or incomplete. Root took to continually revising his books in order to have them contain the best information available. These later editions combined the work of many researchers and never relied on the ideas and opinions of one person. Later, the Root Company handed the job of editor to Roger Morse, who completely revised the book, calling on many of the best minds working in the field. The new books do not repudiate the older ones? That is precisely what they do, why they are written and what they are for. That is the primary goal of the advancement of knowledge on any subject, to replace the good with the better. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:14:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: The list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PO Gustafsson wrote: ... But >this list is about bee biology. Pet theory has it's own list. >Personally I would appreciate if those favoring pet theory was >considering discussing their theories on the appropriate place, and >let us here continue with what this list was created for. > Hello PO, I don’t know that you can eliminate cell size as part of bee biology. Cell size is referenced many times throughout bee biology and also in works by Winston, 1987 The Biology Of the Honeybee. Bill Truesdell wrote: >I was strongly in the organic movement in Maine, but learned early that >there are really two organic movements.... The key point here is that everybody has the option of either ignoring, reading, and or responding to letters posted. Most members of this list are by now well aware of who’s who, and should therefore adopt the courtesy of ignoring posts from those they are opposed to. It takes two to tango. And the solution is simple, read those you agree with and ignore the rest. Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:57:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting ?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You wrote: >> When you take a large number of hives and leave untreated (Live and let die >> method) then the result is always the same. Hive of bees which is not >> prolific ARE the survivors! You wrote: >Yes that's what I believe too. Those bees will not be useful for >anything other than pets…. Hello All, This aspect of the colonies development of suppression is fascinating, and is where a major focus in breeding is directed. Another very high priority of mine is the collecting of feral honeybees from ‘all places’ and assessing them 'against each other' for comparative analysis of traits. And in these comparative assessments, I am seeing what appears to be two distinct and diverging selective responses that honeybee colonies are employing against varroa. Something to watch for that I am seeing: 1) Is the propensity thru ‘natural selection’ for traits affecting brood viability ranging from 82% to 87% to develop and or smaller brood areas as a means of varroa suppression. And the main driving force in this case as far as I can tell seems to be lack of most traits affecting colony fecundity which also have a correlating affect on varroa fecundity. 2) Another response I am seeing is one that fly’s in the face of conventional wisdom. Some feral varroa resistant colonies are exhibiting brood viability of an astounding 98% to 100% and are showing a much higher degree of traits associated with colony fecundity, but with no apparent increase in varroa population. Not sure what the driving force here is, but I am hypnotizing that these colonies have developed other traits associated with varroa suppression. And as a result, there was no pressure for the selection of traits that promote 'lack of fecundity' as a means of varroa suppression. I have a theory concerning the different ‘natural selective pressures’ that are associated with selective process behind each of these mite suppression tactics, but I assume it will be too controversial for this list. Those interested, I would love to discuss this, please contact me off list. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 12:52:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: The list In-Reply-To: <45549E83.7070300@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Bill Truesdell (who is actually 26, but everything else is true. Just disregard the man behind the curtain.)" - a fifteen year veteran. So you've been doing this since you were eleven years old? I'm impressed! I could barely read, let alone type, at that age! With regards to thoughts of logging off: The hard part for me is pondering how to respond to the ignorant zealots and reactionaries, if in fact, I should respond at all. Will my corrective *opinion* change them? Will it only inflame the issue? Should incorrect assumptions based on anecdotal musings stand uncorrected? I don't know. Some days I'm up for the foray and other days I let those sleeping dogs lie. I've preferred to lurk, glean the good stuff, and let the rest of the chaff fall to the floor. I still believe that if your bees respond favorably you must be doing something right, but that doesn't give you the monopolistic right to proclaim your methods as the definitive cause of your success, implying my methods are a recipe for disaster. There are a lot of variables. A little humility helps. I'm convinced two cooks can prepare the same recipe with different and unintentional results. I will always, and faithfully read EVERYTHING from Adrian Wenner, Joe Waggle, Jim Fischer and Bob Harrison. I read them, not because I agree with them, necessarily, but because I think they have something intelligent to say. There are others whose post I don't even bother to open. They get deleted right off the in-box list. I've read their opinions. They come from a different place than I do, but that doesn't necessarily make them wrong. Perhaps I ought to read them, if nothing else, just to hear a different voice. I read this forum because I consider it to be an on-going conversation, as if a couple of friends sat down over a cup of coffee (and I usually have mine handy when I'm on the computer). I've never really considered this forum to be the fount of all knowledge, but I've sure learned a lot. I think the beauty of this forum is that we can pick and choose, respond or ignore. And if I disagree, I don't need to make a federal case of it. I can always shut off the computer. Hang in there Bill. Someday you may give someone like me the exact answer I've been looking for. I continue to remind myself that it takes all kinds of people to make the world go around, even the nuts and flakes. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:35:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Chuck_Norton?= Subject: Re: Beeman in Japan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To All, In the "For What It's Worth" department the caption on both the website, http://funhight.blogspot.com/2006/08/beeman-in-japan.html, and consequently BEE-L should have read, "Beeman in Korea" not "Beeman in Japan". After consultation with a reliable source fluent in Japanese it appears that the gentleman’s' headband is written in Korean, that he is standing upon a Japanese flag in the third frame, and in the last frame of the five the banner over the beekeeper is written in Korean. The only thing that appears to be Japanese is the flag on the ground. Sorry to rain on one's parade with such trivial matters, just setting the record and the archives straight. Cheers, Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 16:23:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Beeman in Japan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chuck Norton wrote: >After consultation with a reliable source fluent in Japanese it appears >that the gentleman’s' headband is written in Korean, that he is standing >upon a Japanese flag in the third frame, and in the last frame of the five >the banner over the beekeeper is written in Korean. The only thing that >appears to be Japanese is the flag on the ground. Hello Chuck, Very observant! I already corrected this on another site, but not here. Here's what I wrote: Ahn Sang-gyu is from South Korea. He is protesting Japan's claims over the Tokto islands claimed by both countries. Ahn Sang-gyu covered his body with about 187,453 bees, which is the number of square metres the islands called Tokto in Korea and Takeshima in Japan consist of. He is saying in the video: “The honeybee dares to abandon its life when enemies are attempting to attack, to protect its own home. From now on, I hope these bees will contribute to protect our Dokdo”, Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 18:05:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <45558C4E.30309@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote: > > You are putting all the blame on the honey, when you should consider > using bees that can cope with the conditions that you expect to keep > them in. > Exactly what I do. > Bees that are natural inhabitants of northern climates can handle the > types of honey that are available normally in that area. So instead of > using bees that have been imported from southern climates, generate > your own strains from those that can survive the conditions. Please remember that we got all our bees from Europe (and now Africa) so there are no natural inhabitants in Maine. I started with Italians and shifter to NWC and grew my own from then on. So my bees are acclimatized to the area. There is a difference between survival and proper management. The problem in my specific area is a combination of cold winters with few if any opportunities for cleansing flights and poor final nectar sources. When I extracted at the end of the season, my home bred bees did "cope" but I would have small spring clusters and a minimal harvest. What was interesting is that I was no different than any other beekeeper around me, so I thought I was doing fine.In essence, I was exactly where you want me to be. I had bees that survived just like all the other bees in the area. When I took the advice of Tony and George and managed for the proper honey, my bees were healthier and did not just survive, but thrived. It is well known that there are honeys that can cause problems in an overwintering colony, especially honeydew, which is plentiful here in the fall. My fall honey is solid in a month while summer honeys will stay liquid for a year or more. Honeydew ferments and causes major problems with bees, as shown to me by Tony one spring. I really do not see what you are asking me to do. Go back to one extraction in the fall and let the bees overwinter on poor stores, or do what I have been doing and have both bees that survive but also thrive? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 20:45:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting ?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Joe & All, I will reply as my quote was the first in your post to P.O.. My concern with many beekeeping observations concerns the number of hives involved. Many studies published in bee magazines involve as few as five hives. Dan Purvis ( Purvis Brothers apiaires ) which has done as much research on survivor bees as any beekeeper in the U.S. and I agree a study needs to be ran with at least fifty colonies and a hundred is better. My testing of survivor bees was done with three lots of 100 different survivor queens and two lots of fifty survivor queens from different queen breeders. I based my statement on four years of observing those five queen lines. Four of those tests involved Russian bees. To sum the results up 425 queens kept small clusters and shut down brood rearing with every change of the weather. I found a single exception. In the spring I will see what the offspring are like. She is Russian/Russian. I brought 26 instrumentally inseminated "blue" line Russian queens back from Purvis Brothers several years ago. Three of us took turns inseminating the queens that day at Purvis Brothers so without checking her number with Purvis records I am not sure which one of us inseminated her. Both the queen and drone source were from Glenn apairies II Blue line Russian queens. Her hive wintered on 12 frames of bees last winter and I made two splits from the hive this spring. The hive produced over 150 pounds of honey when we saw the worst honey production ever in Missouri. Hard to find a varroa mite in her hive but every once in a while I can find a varroa in her drone brood. The hive has not been treated. One out of 426. I hate to think what it cost to find her. I put a hive tool to the other 25 II queens I brought back ( and many of the other 400). I read of a beekeeper in Germany which used the "live and let die method" and found a single hive alive out of 850. He based his queen breeding on the single queen and now has varroa tolerant bees. I do not know if his bees were prolific or not. I would guess not. I am a profit minded beekeeper and not interested in bees which are not prolific. I need bees I can rent for pollination. I look at many hives each year both of mine and other beekeepers. This week I traveled to Nebraska with two other beekeepers to depopulate 350 hives considered not worth hauling to Texas. All were started this spring as strong splits with new queens. We took every frame from every hive. one strong/one weak and one in the middle. All treated by the commercial beekeeper exactly alike. Privately researchers tell me their test hives are similar. Or as a beekeeper says when asked of the condition of his hives. " Some weak, some strong and some in between" My point is we can not read absolute truths about beekeeping without field trials (with controls) and a large number of hives. Then the experiment needs repeating and the results should be the same. Stress and added varroa pressure lets the queen breeder see which survivor line can resist varroa. Dan Purvis adds frames of varroa infested brood to hives considered for varroa tolerant breeder queens. I add the stress factor. I have not ever seen a experiment published (other than mine and Dan's) which involved stress & adding extra varroa to the hive. Hives in most USDA experiments sit in a single location by researchers and are feed both syrup & pollen patties. The hives of yours, Dee's and Dennis M. are never moved. Are never placed in areas of thousands of varroa infested hives with drifting drones. Dennis Murrel has suggested I test small cell. He has suggested a way I can test on a large scale with a small investment so I believe I will do the test next spring. I am going to take 25 pounds of small cell foundation and wire into new frames ( yuk!) and place in super strong hives at the height of brood rearing in May. Two to a hive or around 80+ hives involved. Once drawn and the queens lay in I will go in and pull pupa at the purple eye stage and observe and see what you are seeing ( or not). Dennis says the experiment is worth doing and I should see what you small cell people are seeing. Comments? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Missouri " Show me state" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 17:39:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <45558C4E.30309@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman writes: Bees that are natural inhabitants of northern climates can handle the types of honey that are available normally in that area. Reply: Meaning acclimitized honeybees to local/regional areas and not todays mongrelized/complex hybridized ones fed on fake/immatation bee food. And acclimitized for the most part by old books is smaller FWIW. Best Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 17:45:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: USDA and Honey prices In-Reply-To: <455557ED.5080701@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Dillion: Interesting you bringing this up. Who would it help? and who would it make things harder for? Is it a way to try to change politics? How does one follow world honey prices for relating to costs so one can price to be competitive? Regards, Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 18:55:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting ?? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison: 25 lbs with 2 mounted frames in center of brood in May in 80 or so hives to get properly drawnout..........I don't think so with short-term memory and that method, but for partial regression down in size and probably transition comb built too, it shall be interesting to see your results, knowing others trying similar and having lousy results drawn. Regards, Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 05:31:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Eating Honey Moral, Environmentally Sound Choice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Eating Honey Moral, Environmentally Sound Choice Buzz On Honey Tastes Sweet LAURA RANCE, Winnipeg Free Press, 11/11/2006 Just as meat producers rejoiced when the Atkins Diet caught consumers' fancy, the latest buzz about ethical eating tastes pretty sweet to local honey producers... SEE: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 12:46:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <4556571E.1020700@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill > Please remember that we got all our bees from Europe (and now Africa) > so there are no natural inhabitants in Maine. I am not concerned whether the bees were native to the area, only that they are 'suitable'... Dee used the word acclimatised, which would be suitable, but I'm afraid I do not agree with 'acclimatisation' being related to a smaller bodily size. > There is a difference between survival and proper management. The > problem in my specific area is a combination of cold winters with few > if any opportunities for cleansing flights and poor final nectar > sources. Here I am not concerned with survival in the terms of merely 'still being alive', for me they have to be alive and in adequate condition for the next season. However at the start of a program of breeding a bee for an area that they have not normally survived in, simply being alive at least allows further progress to be made. The cold winters require calm winter clustering that does not cause much consumption of stores and should be selected for. > When I took the advice of Tony and George and managed for the proper > honey, my bees were healthier and did not just survive, but thrived. So you are substituting management effort for further selection, but you will need to apply your 'management' every season henceforth, whereas if you selected those colonies that were acclimatised further (those that handled the honey of the region and were capable of adequate spring expansion). Once that is achieved the beekeeper's workload lessens, managing the honey type that is wintered on is then not required. > It is well known that there are honeys that can cause problems in an > overwintering colony, especially honeydew, Again It is not the honey that is wrong it the bees, but we can use it in UK as a selection tool, by deliberately feeding honeydew honey, Ivy honey and Heather honey to colonies of bees we can eliminate those strains that are unsuitable, this is helpful in weeding out Italian and Carniolan genes that otherwise tend contaminate stocks of AMM bees as well as getting rid of a few AMM strains that are not up to scratch. > I really do not see what you are asking me to do. Go back to one > extraction in the fall and let the bees overwinter on poor stores, I find it hard to imagine only extracting once a year at the end of the season, but I think that if your reasons for extracting are to alter the quality of honey left for the bees, you are to some extent 'ducking the issue'. If the bees cannot cope with the crop that they gather, they must be supported either by artificial feeding or by artificial management, both of which detract from the profitability and result in unnecessary man hours. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 08:41:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: The list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>read those you agree with and ignore the rest.<< I agree, but I still read the posts that I do not agree with so I round out my knowledge of others views. This approach helps me understand the wider viewpoints. I restrain myself from trying to "convert" one to my views. Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 08:34:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <455709AD.6090405@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman writes: Dee used the word acclimatised, which would be suitable, but I'm afraid I do not agree with 'acclimatisation' being related to a smaller bodily size. Reply: While the bees of the northern latitudes would be slightly bigger then what we might keep for the bulk of bees naturally raised, in the overall core of the broodnest there would still be breakout for variability for the bees to work with for problems of small, medium, and large size for the area acclimitized to. But in considering that there is only about a 2% size difference in the bee per each degree of latitude change which isn't much, and looking at how many latitude changes that would take to increase from south to north, and knowing that even in UK old archives show a size of about 5 cells within 1 inch (which technically means slightly smaller) then in looking at today's enlarged combs one might see a problem of for even our more northern climates of having bees today on average about .3mm oversize. But basically you follow the bees needs and what they draw, and things over a period of years straighten out with uniform body conformity in all worker familys of the hives, besides other characteristics. I totally agree with what you say concerning the honey, for bees in the natural would have to use it, and why put all that work into getting something that they cannot use. But to get bees acclimitized to ones own area first comes survivalability, and then building of numbers for variability, and then when enough numbers are built up and still following the bees and their needs and work habits, comes the chance to select the best for the overall honey production we seek while letting the poorest performers just go that cannot hold during even average years of working. Here is where sphere of infuence in build numbers comes into play, but then this you would be aware of along with acclimitizing. Best Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 11:37:21 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Temperature for winter clusters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many of us who experience real winters , i.e. with temperatures below freezing and lots of snow usually wrap our hives. I know some who don't and some who get quite elaborate. Question: based on going into the winter with what we all would consider adequate stores and a colony that is reasonably strong in most respects, is there a temperature inside the hive above which bees eat more and potentially end up starving before spring Walter Ontario -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 11:52:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting ?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: ...but for >partial regression down in size and probably transition >comb built too, it shall be interesting to see your >results, knowing others trying similar and having lousy >results drawn. Hello Bob & Dee, Bob, was it you that stated your bees are on 5.2 sizing or so? If so, he should be able to make 5.0 or better the first season. Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 12:20:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting ?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I have not ever seen a experiment published (other than mine and Dan's) >which involved stress & adding extra varroa to the hive. Hello Bob, How the stress factor plays into varroa infestations is something that needs looked at. I have witnessed this spring, a fascinating example of just how stress plays into a colonies ability to control mites. Under some extreme stress conditions, it seems a colony can temporary loose it’s hygienic abilities or other beneficial traits. >Hives in most USDA experiments sit in a single location by researchers and >are feed both syrup & pollen patties. The hives of yours, Dee's and Dennis >M. are never moved. Are never placed in areas of thousands of varroa >infested hives with drifting drones. I don’t know that any colony can cope with a sudden onslaught of varroa in very large numbers. What I am seeing is a gradual decrease over time of varroa. But it will be interesting to see what your results are in this area. >I am going to take 25 pounds of small cell foundation and wire into new >frames ( yuk!) and place in super strong hives at the height of brood >rearing in May. Two to a hive or around 80+ hives involved. Once drawn and >the queens lay in I will go in and pull pupa at the purple eye stage and >observe and see what you are seeing ( or not). I would recommend waiting till year 2 or 3 to make conclusions of what we are seeing. The first season will for some reason show an increase in mites for some reason and may include other stress symptoms that could be interpreted wrongly if judgments are made too soon concerning small cell. Most beekeepers regress with their survivors. Survivors tend to have low brood viability. So one needs to regress the first year, and then select for queen fundamentals and at least 95% viability, then the following season see the results. Many expect small cell as a cure all, it is not for it must be accompanied by good beekeeping practices and quality stock which I know you have already. >Dennis says the experiment is worth doing and I should see what you small >cell people are seeing. With your expert knowledge in bee biology, it will be fascinating to hear how you interpret what you are seeing. I’m on small cell for 6 years now. Because I have had bees on small cell long term, I am seeing things that I have not noticed in short term observations. Due to my observations with small and large cell bees, I am scraping ALL claims by researchers that varroa infestation is correlated to the amount of brood. I have found that varroa infestation is correlated to ‘the infestation rate of worker brood‘, not the amount of brood, there is a difference between the two. My thinking now is that the higher infestation rate of worker brood in larger cell colonies causes a selective advantage for queens with low brood viability, because these will be the survivors and usually have low mite counts. And any varroa suppression trait selected using mite counts in colonies where infestation rate of worker brood is high, will IMO inevitably include low brood viability, because of low viabilities influence on the varroa infestation rate of worker cells. >From what I am seeing my smaller cell colonies is that the selective pressure for low brood viability as a means of mite suppression appears to be eliminated from this natural selective process. This seems to have improved my ability to select colonies for their true mite suppression qualities, and I do not get the bi-directional unintentional selection for low brood viability many have stated occures. This has allowed me to easily and substantially increase my brood viability over all. Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:38:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Natural bee size... was, Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <20061112163454.46010.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee Your rule of thumb... > 2% size difference in the bee per each > degree of latitude change Does not stack up with the morphometry, I suspect that within some races it may be true, but it certainly is not true in UK, Parts of Europe and some regions of what was the USSR in days gone by. Yes, there is a variability in cell size within a nest with the smallest cells right in the core of the nest, but in UK that equates to 5.1 mm for Italianised bees and can vary up to 5.6 mm for some Amm types, with a good many Amm types around 5.3-5.4 mm (these figures are all regarding the smallest cells in the core of the nest). I have only seen one nest in more than thirty five years that had cells as small as 5.00 mm and none that had cells smaller than that (other than odd ones and transition cells). Freely built comb in UK is most commonly 5.5 mm. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 12:57:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I am not concerned whether the bees were native to the area, only that >they are 'suitable'... Dee used the word acclimatised I think the correct word is acclimated. Personally, I think this idea is tossed about loosely without clear proof. Do we know how long it would take for honeybees to become acclimated? I would think at least several thousand years. Then you have to contend with the constant influx (at least in the US) of bees from the South. So even if someone is trying to get acclimated bees in their little neck of the woods by inbreeding, they are bound to out-cross with their neighbor's bees. >If the bees cannot cope with the crop that they gather, they must be >supported either by artificial feeding or by artificial management All our interventions are artificial. The idea that some honey is healthier for bees goes way back. To leave the better quality (for bees) honey and harvest the other is not artificial management but taking care of your bees. The bees have no way of sorting honey by grade, even if they had a way of knowing which honey was more healthful. Too much has been made of feeding in the discussion of the past few weeks. There are plenty of beekeepers who never have to feed their bees, except to stave off starvation due to a crop failure. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 11:47:58 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, > So even if someone is trying to get acclimated bees in their little neck of the woods by inbreeding, they are bound to out-cross with their neighbor's bees. > This is what associations and good old cooperation is for in working together to overcome problems. I would like to see it happen but people are in some part, not all, are pretty stubborn. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 12:18:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting ?? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe Waggle and Bob Harrison: Bob, was it you that stated your bees are on 5.2 sizing or so? If so, he should be able to make 5.0 or better the first season. Reply: Yes, but remember here Bob Harrison said he was only using 25 lbs of SC with only "2" frames in each of about "80" colonies and with remaining combs bigger, this is not a true experiment for the varroa will equalize out over all the cells, thus the SC cells will help take the pressure off the bigger cells/combs. For Bob to do it right to actually see, he would have to actually do a broodnest conversion like you have Joe, and from what he has said he is not....and Bob being so experienced, should really know this to begin with. Regards, Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 12:25:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Natural bee size... was, Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <45574E0F.2050604@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman: Freely built comb in UK is most commonly 5.5 mm. Reply: So then the upsizing to be accomplished which had to also deal with breeding to lock in the necessary traits, as written about early on in Gleanings in Bee Culture has succeeded in your area then. This should make interesting watching over the coming years. Thank you for sharing this info with me. Best Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 20:07:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Natural bee size... was, Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <20061112202555.53402.qmail@web51611.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: Dave Cushman: Freely built comb in UK is most commonly 5.5 mm. Reply: So then the upsizing ....... has succeeded in your area then. This should make interesting watching over the coming years. Pardon me for butting in, but I think Dave was trying to convey a different message. I think he was saying that for Amm the naturally built comb in the beginning was around 5.5 mm, not that the bees had been upsized. Mike --------------------------------- Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 20:24:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting ?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: >Yes, but remember here Bob Harrison said he was only using >25 lbs of SC with only "2" frames in each of about "80" >colonies and with remaining combs bigger,,,, Hello Dee, I checked back on the post, that is what Bob said! Well, in light of this information, it doesn’t seem to me like a good faith effort to test small cell. But, there is still time to change. If Bob is getting advice from Dennis Murrell, I would surely expect Dennis to advise against a << single year, ‘2 frame’ test>>. Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 21:43:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting ?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Dee, I have discussed small cell many times with Dennis Murrel( to say our discussions have been heated would be an understatement). As far back as 1999 and also on other lists. Also with the late Bob Stevens. Dennis a former commercial beekeeper and the late Bob Stevens a longtime commercial beekeeper as well as owner of betterbee. The beekeeping industry lost a valuable asset with his death this year and I lost a longtime friend. Both have done what I am thinking of doing with success. Here is what Bob Stevens recommends: "Perhaps the easiest method of regressing bee size is to shake a package onto small cell foundation. After a few generations of bees have emerged remove the outer two frames. Push the remaining frames to the outside and insert two new frames with small cell foundation into the center. Repeat this until you have a brood nest of drawn comb measuring 4.9mm" ( pg. 19 of the 2006 Betterbee catalog). The place to get small cell foundation drawn correctly is in the center of the brood nest. Dennis, Bob Stevens and myself do not have a doubt. Shaking a swarm onto a box of foundation as recommended above is asking for larger cell comb. The smallest cells will be in the center and in my opinion the five or six outside combs will need remelting. Or at least that's what I saw when I tried the method as tought by the small cell group in "99". Also getting a box of small cell comb ( deep box 10 frames) drawn in an intense honey flow or heavy feeding is problematic. in my opinion to get the correct size using the swarm on foundation method you need to feed only as needed otherwise the bees will draw larger cell size to store the surplus. Haste makes waste! In my method once the first two small cell foundation are draw you add two more in the center. and push the first two to the sides. When you get to around six frames you can stop. The four outside frames ( 2 on each side can be larger cell) need not be small cell. I plan to mark small cell frames and always keep in the center of the brood nest unless needing replacement if I like the results of the experiment. I place cull frames always on the outside of the broodnest. If I don't like the results or see no benifit then the small cell will go to the outside and I will continue on as I have been. Most of my brood nest comb is now 5.1mm which is correct for my latitude. Although some measure 5.2. I want to see if 4.9mm will make me see what you guys are seeing? I have given advice to some of the largest beekeepers around. One piece of advice I have given since the arrival of varroa is to stop getting brood comb drawn as supers above the brood nest. Way too much drone size comb when drawn above. I draw all brood nest comb in the brood nest. The bees make the proper oval and draw 5.1mm. Yes I did buy pierco 5.1mm comb drawn in supers from Bell Honey Farms but the comb was run through a boganshutz uncapper dry and cut back so the bees would draw correctly. Once cut down and drawn in the brood nest a few combs at a time the combs are now the correct size. Those supers cell size was 1-2 mm. larger than the pattern when I measured in Florida before running through the boganschutz. Tip for the day for those running plastic foundation and have got access to a boganshutz. Running your deadouts through a boganshutz and letting the bees redraw is a wonderful way to get rid of contaminated wax in brood nest comb. The boganshutz cuts the wax down and leaves the cell about a quarter inch high. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:27:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: PO Gustafsson Subject: Re: The list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Joe Waggle wrote: >The key point here is that everybody has the option of either ignoring, >reading, and or responding to letters posted. Most members of this list >are by now well aware of who's who, and should therefore adopt the >courtesy of ignoring posts from those they are opposed to. Hello Joe, It has never worked that way on this list. BEE-L is focused on science, not just exchanging theories. A new theory will usually be challenged until proven right or wrong. If someone can't present evidence that what he claims is true, he will be challenged again whenever he brings it up. New ideas are always welcome, but people must realize that when they fail to prove their point, they should let go until they have proof to back up their theory. Continual repeating like a mantra will not make it true, either is it courteous to others who have heard the same thing over and over already. >It takes two to tango. And the solution is simple, read those you agree >with and ignore the rest. I have been ignoring posts from some "natural" advocates for a long time, thinking they will eventually realize few people are taking them seriously. But I also believe we have a collective responsibility to keep the list on course. Especially when there starts to come bad advice like in the feeding honey thread. (feeding honey-->AFB) It looks to me that there are few (if any) of the natural advocates that really make a living from beekeeping. Or that produce any significant honey crop / do any pollination. I think this should be made clear. It is not only survival that matters. If the bees don't produce any honey they are not useful to most of us. Small colonies will not do much pollination either. Now let's say we were to select for bees that were best adopted to survival without interference from man. Firstly they don't need to produce more honey that they can eat during winter. Much better use the energy on reproduction. That will benefit in the long run. So we would have bees that swarmed a lot, and didn't give any surplus honey. That is natural bees to me, what evolution would revert to if we stopped selecting. In an answer to Bob you wrote: >Most beekeepers regress with their survivors. Survivors tend to have low >brood viability. So one needs to regress the first year, and then select >for queen fundamentals and at least 95% viability Lets see if I got this right: small cells force beekeepers to select for bees with less brood production. Is that what you say? There is a question I asked before but didn't get an answer to. This is important to know, and I will explain why. There are beekeepers in Europe that put a lot of work in changing foundation in the belief that you are doing well and producing honey from your small cell operations. Some with 500+ hives, relying on it for their livelihood. There is nothing said by the advocates here about the need for changing to a different breed of bees during the process. I think it's fair to those to explain the downsides with the process, don't you also think so Joe? So will you please let us know how much honey you bees were producing before the varroa entered, and what average you are making now. If the other small cell advocates would also join with their results, it would give us a better idea of what to expect. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson pogust@gmail.com http://beeman.se -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 07:23:02 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Oxalic in cold weather MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Brian Fredericksen" > > Note: it must be above freezing to use any of the two OA delivery > methods. And why would that be in dripping method ? I have been using dripping method for several years and have done it many times in - 2 - - 10 C. Only noticed difference is that the person working is getting colder. I admit the efficacy might be a bit less when very cold as the bees then maybe do not spread the oxalic so well to each others. But we have not seen diffrerence. Vaporising in cold has been reported by beekeepers here in Finland to give less efficacy. Most likely because the cluster is the so tight that the oxalic does not get into the bees well enough, or it might turn too fast from vapour to solid because of the low temperature. Anyone seen any scientific tests about this ? Ari Seppälä Finland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:45:45 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter > I think the correct word is acclimated. Personally, I think this idea > is tossed about loosely without clear proof. Do we know how long it > would take for honeybees to become acclimated? I would think at least > several thousand years. It only take seven years to reach about two thirds acclimatisation, using positive selection and adequate culling, if your program runs twenty or more years you can reach figures as good as 95%-98%. However this takes work (interesting work, but never the less work). It is no accident that in my breeding outfit the ratio of hive types was... 80 full sized hives (used for honey production, queen raising and drone raising). 110 five frame nucs (used as mating nucs during early and late season, but as small colony assessment units during the rest of the time and also overwintering of nucs). 300+ mating nucs (each having 6,7 or 8 rounds of queen mating). It is those that are discarded from the queens raised that make the most difference and although I used to sell or give away maybe 20 % of the queens, the vast majority were deselected as being unsuitable. It seems to me that there are few US beekeepers that go to those lengths. > Then you have to contend with the constant influx (at least in the > US) of bees from the South. The problem is similar in UK, but most of the exotic stuff comes from continental Europe, but there are many many beekeepers importing queens illegally and a few that do it legally, but they are still imports from places where the grass may seem greener to some eyes. But even this problem can be overcome by use of morphometry and adequate selection. > There are plenty of beekeepers who never have to feed their bees, > except to stave off starvation due to a crop failure. You are implying that this is in some way due to action of the beekeeper, only leaving honey of a quality that the bees concerned can survive on, but in UK, for instance, we have late crops of ivy honey that occur well after extracting has finished, if the bees can't cope with that ivy honey as winter stores, they will not be around in following seasons, so nature has a way of finding the fittest. I too think that far too much stress is placed on winter feeding, when the population dynamics of the bees and their racial characteristics should be more explored to find or develop strains that do not require excessive winter stores. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:30:25 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Natural bee size... was, Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <20061113040703.95528.qmail@web53412.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike & Dee Thanks Mike you are correct > Pardon me for butting in, but I think Dave was trying to convey a > different message. I think he was saying that for Amm the naturally > built comb in the beginning was around 5.5 mm, not that the bees had > been upsized. To add a little... The upsizing started by using 5.45 mm foundation that had been heated and stretched to something in the region of 5.6 mm, then 5.7 mm foundation that was originally intended for honey storage was used as brood foundation, then 5.9 mm foundation was used, firstly imported and then made from copper matrix hinged moulds, some of which are still in use today. Bees that have been housed continuously on 5.9 mm foundation consider such cells as worker cells, but give them a holiday on smaller foundation or freely built comb and they will then treat 5.9 mm foundation as drone sized cells. Because AMM is a wide ranging race (geographically speaking) what I am saying is that the natural size of AMM bees is not a simple bell shaped distribution curve, but that different regional strains of AMM have means of cell size that differ somewhat, some being as small as 5.4 mm some being about 5.5 mm and yet others in the region of 5.6 mm, you can force these sizes to change both up and down, although there are some strains that will not go below 5.6 mm whatever you try and force them on to. The 5.6 mm size is also appropriate to some Russian strains (although they are not pure AMM) Many beekeepers in UK were (and some still are) unaware of what size of cell is impressed in the foundation that they are buying. The cell sizes that Dee quotes can only be consistently achieved using Italian bees or Africanised bees. UK mongrel bees can go down to about 5.1 mm, which I attribute to the presence a high percentage of Italian genes. As DNA analysis is still relatively expensive, it's use in often limited to bees that are good candidates for being AMM, but that situation is in process of modification and as the techniques become cheaper, we will no doubt find some more definite answers in the future. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:20:45 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 13/11/2006 13:12:40 GMT Standard Time, dave.cushman@LINEONE.NET writes: <> I couldn't agree more. the first bees I had wintered in clusters the size of a football, and needed feeding like mad just to scrape through. The ones I have now have clusters the size of a grapefruit, have just as many bees by about the middle of May, and overwinter on about two frames of honey. I wouldn't normally feed at all, though I confess to doing a little this year after a disastrous season. But what a difference! Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:29:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <455709AD.6090405@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote: > > If the bees cannot cope with the crop that they gather, they must be > supported either by artificial feeding or by artificial management, > both of which detract from the profitability and result in unnecessary > man hours. > > Which, to a very large extent, defines proper beekeeping. You manage the problems. I find it difficult to wrap my arms around "leave them alone" beekeeping since no successful beekeeper does so. We all manage our local problems. Also, please remember that there is a big difference between your winter conditions and ours in Maine. If I lived in Maryland, then your advice might be appropriate, since the climates are similar. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:31:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Natural bee size... was, Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 13/11/2006 13:26:43 GMT Standard Time, dave.cushman@LINEONE.NET writes: <> Mine are, I think, still near-AMM, and while they're currently on a pretty random mix of cell sizes, they're perfectly happy on 5.1mm. I've had colonies on badly-drawn 4.9 twice, and lost both from queen failure. I'm not sure whether this is coincidence or not, but I'll be trying again, if only to see what happens. It would be interesting to have a colony without foundation, to see what they drew when left to their own devices, but so far every time i've tried using strips, I've rapidly ended up with comb that was so far from straight I had to start bending it and cutting bits off so I could get the frames out! Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:52:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There have been a couple of posts about size of winter stores and number of bees. Before charging off to emulate them find out what the climate is like where they live. Bill Truesdell Bath, Florida (actually, Maine, but you get the point. I did live in Miami and Key West for most of my youth, where I swam in the ocean in winter instead of walking on it in Maine.) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:49:49 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Oxalic in cold weather Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Note: it must be above freezing to use any of the two OA delivery >>methods. >I have been using dripping method for several years and have done it >many times in - 2 - - 10 C. How (and when) do you verify your colonies are broodless? (I assume you don't break the frames apart in freezing wheather.) Regards, Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:01:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: The Law of Good Enough In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My new Law of Good Enough: If everyone in your immediate area of expertise has the same results as you then you may be a failure. When I first started keeping bees I had the same results as everyone I knew who kept bees. All were in the local Chapter of the Maine State Beekeepers Association. Hence, I must be doing things correctly. I selected for survival and continually got 20 lbs and occasionally 40lbs of honey per colony, which was slightly better than most in my area. My bees survived winters better than most, but that was between 50-80%, while some lost everything. I became a Board member of the MSBA and eventually the editor of the State newsletter. I also joined this list. With the MSBA I learned how Tony Jadczak kept bees and on this list, read George Imire's posts and got copies of his pink pages for the State newsletter. I took their advice and my survival rates went to near 100% (even when the State average was 20% one year) and honey production rose to 75-100lbs per colony. I now consider 40lbs to be a poor year. For me, the successful beekeeper has bees that are healthy, produce large honey crops and survive well in their area. If a group settles in on a "proved technique" and all get the same results, is it actually the best technique? The group tends to reinforce its own prejudices and anything counter to its findings is disregarded. It is content with the results and those results may only be one part of being a successful beekeeper. Even worse, the results may not even be associated with the technique. I appreciate a rational approach to new ideas which includes more than "It works for me." I reject dogma. A little science goes a long way. Which is why I have trialled about every one of the new ideas that have appeared on this list, including menthol cough drops to kill off Tracheal mites.(Only kept them from coughing all winter.) I have a 4.9 trial going on. I ran my colonies on 5.0 for years, well before Varroa and 4.9. So I am not adverse to new ideas, only unproven ones. I have seen the folly of investing everything into a sure fire cure for whatever and those beekeepers no longer keep bees. Just read the old FGMO posts from the beginning. It, in many ways, mirrors today's controversies. They all knew it worked since they all had the same results and they failed. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:52:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <4558814B.8010101@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill > Which, to a very large extent, defines proper beekeeping. You manage > the problems. I find it difficult to wrap my arms around "leave them > alone" beekeeping since no successful beekeeper does so. We all manage > our local problems. I am not suggesting leaving them alone, I am merely saying that those problems that can be solved, should be solved, rather than skirted around. Nor am I making comparisons between weather, if conditions are harsh... Look for a bee that can respond to such conditions by shutting down, or if conditions are harsher still, then look for a bee that can shut down even further. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:09:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > > All our interventions are artificial. The idea that some honey is healthier > for bees goes way back. To leave the better quality (for bees) honey and > harvest the other is not artificial management but taking care of your bees. > > Thanks, Peter. You reminded me that the fall honey I take off and do not leave for the bees is actually the best honey I harvest. It does granulate in a month or so, but is a good dark honey with exceptional flavor, so both the bees and I benefit. Plus, I never have to feed my bees, the best of all worlds. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:29:43 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Feral colonies in Vermont, upstate NY, Canada. [Feeding honey to bees] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Bees that are natural inhabitants of northern climates can handle the types of honey that are available normally in that area. This is my thinking, too. Do you folks up in Vermont, northern NY, or Canada come across many feral/wild colonies that survive from year to year? Please let me know. Such ferals should be your best source of genetics for your climate. I extracted my fall honey around Oct. 20th this year. The bees collected a lot of delicious honey from mostly, I believe, goldenrod. The honey started crystalizing with very fine grain in the buckets within 3 days after extraction! I have not seen this before. The bees had stored a lot of this fall honey in the broodnest. It's bound to be, at least, partially crystallized under the cappings above the cluster. I had to supplement very little with sugar syrup this year. I'll see how they fare this winter. I've been collecting feral colonies and raising my own queens from the feral mothers so these colonies should be ok. The only [major] difference I see between local ferals and my colonies is the amount of stored spring/summer honey. Ferals will have a larger proportion of spring/summer honey in their stores. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:11:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: PO Gustafsson Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dave Cushman wrote: >300+ mating nucs (each having 6,7 or 8 rounds of queen mating). Hello Dave, Interesting to hear how big difference there is between us. I get an average of 2,5 queens out of the mating nucs. If I really push it and take queens out as soon as they start laying eggs I can get 3 rounds. >I too think that far too much stress is placed on winter feeding, when >the population dynamics of the bees and their racial characteristics >should be more explored to find or develop strains that do not require >excessive winter stores. About 10 years ago I had exactly the same idea. I wanted bees that I didn't have to worry about running out of feed. They sat quietly during winter and started build up when they could fly for pollen. I bought my queen mothers from breeders that used insem and island mating. Then I started to have some problems with bees disappearing during summer, thought it might be related to inbreeding and started to mix different races in order to obtain maximum vitality. Just to test the first years, unfortunately it didn't help much, but as "by-product" I was getting better honey crops. So continued that path focusing on max vitality in my bees. This has led to where I am now, with an extra 5 kg winter feed I get 30 kg more honey. Bees start early brooding and are ready when the first flowers are coming. Would I go back to the more or less inbred bees? Don't think so. Can't afford it. Regarding honey for winter stores: it would be hazard here with bees confined to the hive for 6 months without any chance for a cleansing flight during that time. Worst possible scenario for me is when there is a late honey dew flow after I taken the last honey home. I had it one year, fortunately only on a few locations. Half of the hives died, the rest was so poor they didn't build up until summer was gone. And what a mess to clean up those dead hives were. Britain has a different situation with water all around creating milder winters and often unstable summer conditions. This affect your selection of bees, as well as my short and intense flow need another type of bee. Always interesting to compare, but I don't think we can say anyone is right or wrong here... -- Regards P-O Gustafsson pogust@gmail.com http://beeman.se -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:52:16 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Oxalic respirator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike, With such tall hives, what dose of oxalic acid do you give to each hive? Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Palmer" said >. My hives are multiple stories...usually 3. I > wrap my hives for winter. > -- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 13:51:55 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Oxalic in cold weather MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 13/11/2006 16:04:21 GMT Standard Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: <> I checked my colonies regularly last winter, and found that they were almost broodless (less than 12 capped cells) around New Year. Since they were never completely broodless, that's the best I'm likely to get. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 20:47:52 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Oxalic in cold weather Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I checked my colonies regularly last winter, and found that they were almost broodless (less than 12 capped cells) around New Year. 12 capped cells is not bad since, I believe, the OA concentration lasts for a couple of weeks. I checked my colonies over the weekend. They had 1-2 frames of mostly capped brood. They were broodless at this time last year. I guess I'll be applying the OA in mid-December. :) I'll wait for a nice day with above-freezing temps to check for broodlessness. I would not want to check the frames in sub-zero temps since some bees would try to fly and be lost. But I agree that, once broodlessness is confirmed, OA can be dribbled in below 0 C weather. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 19:02:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: How does one sort mites for accurate counting ?? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison: Since you are gearing up for the doing, then one more recommendation when inserting and spreading the small cell 4.9mm foundation. Please, housel position it and you will get better results FWIW as your SC comb numbers grow. Glad to see you know how to feed in to middle and then rotate to sides, and up and out the old way. So while your marking the frames it shouldn't take any longer to try the positiong thing also, and I bet when you see it in action with enough comb you will like it, like I do. Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 03:31:43 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <2db732bf0611130911m758e6f23ra3d9b38a4e516d8d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <2db732bf0611130911m758e6f23ra3d9b38a4e516d8d@mail.gmail.com>, PO Gustafsson writes >Interesting to hear how big difference there is between us. I get an >average of 2,5 queens out of the mating nucs. If I really push it and >take queens out as soon as they start laying eggs I can get 3 rounds. Hi P-O, I am UK too as you know and your experience is parallel to mines. 3 rounds of mated queens if i am lucky, and with the duds that never take, or turn out the odd drone layer, more like an average of 2 to 2.5. Yes it could be pushed higher by using the full bee season into Sept. to mate more and more queens, but after about 7th July the queens are of little use to us as you cannot practically get safe introduction on the heather (bees hostile and unreceptive in that environment). We fill the mini nucs on an opportunist basis from late April ( but more normally first 10 days of May) as soon as the first grafts are ready, and first time around a 70% success rate would be good, a lot need refilling that early. One which takes first time will possibly turn out 4 queens by early July, but average numbers has to include the failures, so yes, your figure is accurate. Average is an interesting and moving concept. True average is over ALL your units, not just the successful ones, including all the dinks. Anything else is skewing the figures, and deceiving others, and perhaps also yourself . >This has led to where I am now, with an extra >5 kg winter feed I get 30 kg more honey. Bees start early brooding and >are ready when the first flowers are coming. Would I go back to the more >or less inbred bees? Don't think so. Can't afford it. Of course this is correct. No way can you carry on as now following the stuff that comes out of the extremists. Their lack of stores is more often not the fault of the bees anyway. We keep them for the honey, to pay the mortgage, so we take it to sell, and give them back clean and perfect stores for wintering. All this twaddle about no trace nutrients leading to unhealthy bees just is not borne out in practice at all, and they seem to create an environment in their mind that somehow the bees will have ONLY the artificial stores, but of course this is rubbish as the bees will forage at every opportunity and will bring in pollen in particular at amazing times. > >Regarding honey for winter stores: it would be hazard here with bees >confined to the hive for 6 months without any chance for a cleansing >flight during that time. Worst possible scenario for me is when there is >a late honey dew flow after I taken the last honey home. I had it one >year, fortunately only on a few locations. Half of the hives died, the >rest was so poor they didn't build up until summer was gone. P-o, we are not so very different. I have mainly black bees, well adapted to the environment, but having had thousands and thousands of colony years experience of doing it both ways there is ZERO doubt in my mind that clean stores (syrup, we use mainly Api-Invert, you will know it, but for those who dont, specially developed for bees in Germany) is much better winter food than honey. The bees are healthier altogether. We even remove a lot of stores from the broodnest, leaving maybe 4 or 5 bars especially those with a lot of pollen, and give them approx 14Kg of syrup. This is enough for winter here, and does not cause overcrowding that prevents that last important brood cycle in September, which without feeding does not happen. Of course we do not have anything like as long a period without flight as you but can rarely, in a bad winter, get three months. Wintering with much heather honey you start getting really twitchy after 4 to 6 weeks without flight, and when they do get out, boy were they desperate. Not so with the cleaner stores. > And >what a mess to clean up those dead hives were. Not seen that now for many many years, but it is really sad and a huge amount of work. Used to be quite common under the old ways, the ones in the old books. Met one of the authors when I was young, he was one of the people who knew exactly what to do, and that there were set ways to do it. Turned out his annual loss rate and per colony production figures were worse than my fathers at the time, but my dad was still 'wrong' for not following the method. ( they operated in the same territory) >Always interesting to >compare, but I don't think we can say anyone is right or wrong here... Quite so, but have to say I am a bit guilty about not coming in to support you and others who are beset by the tiny group who continue flooding the list. They are astonishingly productive at least in terms of posting numbers, and if this is repeated on all the lists they are on I don't know how they have the time to get on with the main game, keeping bees and producing honey. They also seem to have endless time to look up obscure and often long obsolete and superceded writings, and little known research documents, some of which astonish me where they could find it. These writings and documents have one thing in common though, they are carefully selected, and sometimes it seems wilfully misinterpreted, to support their view, even if long superceded by other views. I remember Allen Dick asked a question similar to the one you did about colony numbers and productivity and so far as I am aware never got a direct answer from some. Seems to be a place not to go, as their measures of success are alien to those of us providing a product to the masses at an affordable price (which, if adopted worldwide as they would wish, their method would largely deny the public), and they do seem very touchy about it. ( My conclusion, based on no evidence at all except their own reticence, is that, Dee Lusby apart, they do not add up to a lot.) I know you said you were near to unsubscribing. I did. I was heartily sick of their list flooding and had had enough. I am not proud of that, I should, like you, have hung in there, but also like you, I am a sharp end commercial beekeeper and need to get on with things at the important times and not get involved in mud wrestling. Now the honey is all home, the bees are all off the mountains and fed, looking exceptionally healthy and sleek, and winter quiet descends, so I can now participate again. Murray ( Who is quite proud to have had myself and my ways of working called 'an obscene aberration' by one of the 'natural' group!) -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 19:45:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Natural bee size... was, Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <20061113040703.95528.qmail@web53412.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike and Dave: You go back even to the archives here on BEE-L and much has been said on this subject. and the old archives of Bee World and ABJ, and Gleaning in Bee Culture do indeed mention sizes a good .3mm smaller at least. Start with reading Wedmore and Baudoux ...Mike. Dave should already know who they are. Regards, Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:11:23 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Oxalic in cold weather MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > How (and when) do you verify your colonies are broodless? (I assume > you don't break the frames apart in freezing wheather.) > I admit. I don't brake all the hives open. I look some hives and when almost all checked are with out brood I start treating. The ones having late brood are normally the ones with new queen, so I use mainly them as control. Around where I live it is very rare to have brood in late November, but 200 km south much more common. Ari Seppälä -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:32:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Murray > We fill the mini nucs on an opportunist basis from late April ( but > more normally first 10 days of May) as soon as the first grafts are > ready, and first time around a 70% success rate would be good, a lot > need refilling that early. One which takes first time will possibly > turn out 4 queens by early July, As my system was more geared to queen raising than honey production, my mating nucs were stocked with folding frames that had come from full sized colonies. This takes effort and delay out of the equation, but at the cost of honey production. The nucs require little in the way of support or maintenance, but were fed syrup to reduce the amount of flying of workers. My earliest round of grafting would be about the third week in April, with quite a poor success rate. Mating in September and into October can be surprisingly good, when the bees have been selected for supersedure traits, but there is little chance of doing much assessment work on the last few batches, by which time the numbers of nucs involved has been reduced as the smaller mating hives have had their frames redistributed into five frame nucs and also back into full sized hives for wintering, again the use of folding frames makes this simple and not too time consuming. It may seem a strange way of working, but it suited me. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:49:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: PO Gustafsson Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello Murray! Good to have you on board again, I always appreciate your posts as they come from long experience and rational thinking. >We fill the mini nucs on an opportunist basis from late April ( but more >normally first 10 days of May) as soon as the first grafts are ready, >and first time around a 70% success rate would be good, a lot need >refilling that early. You are a bit ahead there. I can start queen production mid May, but usually wait until end of May. Otherwise I would have to combine hives to get cell builders. So around mid June the first mating nucs goes out to the mating yard. The last grafting is done around July 20. When getting into August the success rate is going down, September would mean queens that might not be properly mated. >True average is over ALL your units, not just the successful >ones, including all the dinks. Anything else is skewing the figures, and >deceiving others, and perhaps also yourself . This is very important. Proper records have to be kept, all hives (in my case all hives that made the winter and have a queen) have to be included. Every year there are some hives that look especially good, when out in the yards working I think those will be the ones to select for next years breeders. After the season is finished I sit down with Excel to organize the collected data and figure out who's going to be the queen mothers. Often those hives that looked so good don't get selected. We have a way of fooling ourself, even after many years experience. >We even remove a lot of stores from the broodnest, leaving maybe 4 or 5 >bars especially those with a lot of pollen, and give them approx 14Kg of >syrup. This is enough for winter here, and does not cause overcrowding >that prevents that last important brood cycle in September We do the same here, taking honey out from the brood nest. For me it's also part of recycling the brood combs. Old combs that has been in contact with fluvalinate are burned and newly drawn out are introduced. Yes we have Api-Invert and also a locally made bee feed with similar content of inverted sugars. I still use white sugar (400 kg bags) as it is cheaper and easier to handle. Those bee feeds you buy are higher sugar content than I manage to handle. I'm pumping feed and have a setup with a small water pump that works well with 65% solution if it's not too cold. Dry sugar is also better to store. I give my hives 20 kg dry weight sugar. Back in those days the black bees were still used, my uncle who introduced me to beekeeping, claimed 12 kg were the norm here. Your 14 kg of syrup would about equal to that. 12 kg would take my bees through winter too, the difference is that they start brooding early in the spring and quickly burn the feed on new bees. I could take an extra feeding tour early to the bees, like many hobbyists do here, but it's more rational to give them all in the autumn. >touchy about it. ( My conclusion, based on no evidence at all except >their own reticence, is that, Dee Lusby apart, they do not add up to a >lot.) If they do not produce any honey, or have large enough colonies to do any significant pollination, what is the meaning of keeping those bees? Reintroduce feral colonies is the only reason I can think of. They would be good for that, but not for much else. Dee has many hives, but I have never heard her say she is making much honey from them. We all presume because she has those numbers she also makes a good honey crop. But does she..? What makes me wonder is the way she was able to build up the numbers again after the initial crash due to varroa. Would you or me be able to do what she did? Loose the source of income and instead put a lot of work and money in slowly rebuilding up again during many years. I sure would not. I would go bankrupt. This lead to the question if she really is dependent of bees for her income, or if the honey production from her hives are of minor importance. Of course the best would be that the small cell natural advocates told us the truth and put facts up for all to see. Then we wouldn't have to speculate. But in this case, no answer would also be an answer..... -- Regards P-O Gustafsson pogust@gmail.com http://beeman.se -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 06:37:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Oxalic respirator In-Reply-To: <001401c7074c$750b4410$0101a8c0@DF9MK81J> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-433179F6 > With such tall hives, what dose of oxalic acid do you give to each hive? A little over 2 grams. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.3/530 - Release Date: 11/11/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 06:52:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Feral colonies in Vermont, upstate NY, Canada. [Feeding honey to bees] In-Reply-To: <20061113.082956.2383.1239917@webmail55.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-433179F6 > Do you folks up in Vermont, northern NY, or Canada come across many >feral/wild colonies that survive from year to year? No, none at all in Vermont. An occasional colony in a wall or roof is about it. Even the loggers tell me they haven't seen any in years. >>Such ferals should be your best source of genetics for your climate Maybe, maybe not. I think your best source would be your best colonies. Those that do best under your management and your area. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.3/530 - Release Date: 11/11/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:08:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Waldemar said "The bees collected a lot of delicious honey from mostly, I believe, goldenrod. The honey started crystalizing with very fine grain in the buckets within 3 days after extraction! " I believe the reason the honey granulated so fast was the presence of Aster nectar. As Goldenrod and Aster share part of the same blooming period, and Goldenrod is so spectacular while Aster is relatively inconspicious, Goldenrod get the blame for the fast granulation. But the culprit is really Aster. If one gets Goldenrod early in season, before Aster starts blooming, the honey is very light and does not granulate faster than most. But once Aster is mixed in, the honey will granulate within a week of being extracted! At least one company takes maximum advantage of this, see www.reallyrawhoney.com. However, the owners (who are marketers not beekeepers) attribute the fast granulation to Goldenrod and want to purchase honey from beekeepers in the NYS "Goldenrod Belt". Aster also flourishes in those areas. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:08:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Guys, >I remember Allen Dick asked a question similar to the one you did about colony numbers and productivity.... Ah, the old commercial versus little guy debate:>) I've been both, so have some experience in these areas. As a commercial beekeeper, I saw alot of hives in a variety of locations and circumstances. But there just wasn't much time to really observe a single hive in detail or through time. The experience was mostly extensive. As a hobbiest, I've had lots of time to watch a few hives. This experience is mostly intensive. Each system has it's place in beekeeping. But assuming colony count and making money somehow negates the value of others observations/experience is short sighted. It's a kind of commercial bigotry which is common in the US. And it's somewhat ironic for I know of many commercial beekeepers that would go to any end, including sacrificing colony health and/or product quality, to make a dime. And quite a few hobbiest follow their example, not knowing any better. So, the challenge is out. Just what are you 'big' guys producing? What were your colony counts/production before the mites. And what are they now? I've provided some numbers. Let's see who is willing to go there! Who wants to splatter these details over the internet where everyone, including your economic competitors can see them. Not many I'll bet;>) I too, had signed off Bee-L. And just signed back on again for my bees are looking good and are set for winter. And I have the time to do a little ebeekeeping. I appreciate a variety of views and experience. These provide me with the opportunity to evaluate new observations and ideas that I would never encounter in my isolated part of the world. Or that I would never think of myself. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 19:01:07 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>If one gets Goldenrod early in season....the honey is very light and does not granulate faster than most. But once Aster is mixed in, the honey will granulate within a week of being extracted! This is likely my case since we kept the hives out for an extra 3-4 weeks and aster continues to bloom after goldenrod has turned brown. The flavor & aroma are superb and the crystal structure very fine. It's a little on the hard side so not perfectly spreadable with a knife but very delectable by the teaspoonful. >>one company takes maximum advantage of this, see www.reallyrawhoney.com... At $12 a pound, that's great price! >>the owners (who are marketers not beekeepers) attribute the fast granulation to Goldenrod and want to purchase honey from beekeepers in the NYS "Goldenrod Belt". I should call them and sell them 200 lbs... as long as they don't offer $1 a lb. ;-) Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:47:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Guys, >I've provided some numbers.... Well, I provided them to somebody :>))) I used the internet form to submit them to the moderators. Maybe they didn't get approved. But I'll bet I probably didn't submit them properly. So here's the condensed version: Before mites, average yields in my area, were 60 to 80lbs. I averaged 80 to 100lbs/hive. I ran my hives in two deeps. Didn't migrate. And fed a little sugar spring and fall. The hives were run conventionally. Swarming was the biggest concern with minor amount of the brood diseases. No prophylactic antibiotic treatments were used. Honey prices were the other major concern. Overwintering losses were less than 10% and were made using splits. After mites, average yields decreased. Mine were 60 to 80lbs. Hives were run the same way with strips and prophylactic antibiotic grease patties. Wintering losses increases three fold. Swarming problems decreased as the bees weren't strong enough and/or were split more. Winter losses were made up by purchasing packages. Management was intensive with second season queen replacements, equilizing, etc.. After using small cell comb without treatments or feeding, and hives in three deeps, yields increased to 90 to 120lbs. Wintering losses decreased to a negligible level with the hives full of bees and ready to swarm in the spring. After incorporating checkerboarding, production increased to 140 to 160lbs/hive. Swarming is almost non-existent. And my early spring hive populations are huge. All of my equipment is full of bees. My management could be classed as almost let alone. I left commercial beekeeping right after I started using small cell comb. I 've shared these results with my commercial beekeeping friends and have been met openly with contempt and ridicule. Although, I've been asked privately for my advice. These guys won't share their production data. But I suspect, with the continued drought and their extensive use of packages, it's somewhere on the low end or below the area average of about 70lbs. It may be closer to 50lbs. These guys run a deep and a medium. Are migratory. Treat extensively with just about everything. The bees live on corn syrup. Winter losses are extensive and replaced with package bees. And they loose way over half their bees about every 6 years. Brood diseases are rampant. And my bees are surrounded by theirs. Regards Dennis Sorry for the missing post. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:22:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/11/2006 18:34:24 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: I think the correct word is acclimated. Personally, I think this idea is tossed about loosely without clear proof. Do we know how long it would take for honeybees to become acclimated? I would think at least several thousand years. Then you have to contend with the constant influx (at least in the US) of bees from the South. In the 'ideal world' of no artificial feeding and no imports the rate of acclimatisation should be fairly rapid. Those bees that are in tune with their natural local environment will produce more drones at the optimum time and possibly more swarms than those that are struggling. I think Haydak had something pertient to say about this in the 30s but don't have references. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:29:07 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Natural bee size... was, Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 13/11/2006 04:25:47 GMT Standard Time, mws1112004@YAHOO.COM writes: Pardon me for butting in, but I think Dave was trying to convey a different message. I think he was saying that for Amm the naturally built comb in the beginning was around 5.5 mm, not that the bees had been upsized. What did Wildman have to say about UK cell size in the 1700s? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:21:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dave, (Responding to Dave’s letter about solving problems, or skirting problems) I knew exactly what you ment Dave. Breeding a bee for fit your area will help solve the problem. Feeding bees to compensate for the honeybees lack of ability to cope with the conditions in it’s own environment is skirting the problem. Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:32:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Oxalic in cold weather MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 13/11/2006 18:58:54 GMT Standard Time, RSBrenchley@AOL.COM writes: . Since they were never completely broodless, that's the best I'm likely to get. Regards, Robert Brenchley I am about 150 miles south of Robert and broodlessness is a rarity in established queenright colonies. I treated a nuc with oxalic solution a few days ago by assaulting sealed brood with a hive tool before applying the solution which I made up to the recipe on Dave Cushman's web site. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 00:54:24 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message , D. Murrell writes >Ah, the old commercial versus little guy debate:>) I've been both, so have >some experience in these areas. Not the point Dennis. In any case so far as I see it, especially over here, a professional is in most cases still an intensive beekeeper who just works much faster. We get amateurs, big fish in those circles, who watch in awe at the speed with which we do things, yet we still see it all, and they think they see something we missed and ask us later, but have always seen it. UK commercial bee farming IS an intensive practice, otherwise poor or small harvests become your norm. The point is that for some reason more than one of these people decided to get shirty with him and no information was forthcoming. Now just how are readers, of whatever scale, supposed to form any kind of opinion on the status of the writer if they will not answer simple questions like that. They do not know if this is a small scale novice who swallowed a 'feelgood' manual, or a serious and experienced person carrying out proper control checked experimentation. >But assuming colony count and >making money somehow negates the value of others observations/experience is >short sighted. It's a kind of commercial bigotry which is common in the US. Its nothing really to do with that. I feel that it is fair to examine the credentials and agenda of a person making a claim before giving their statements the appropriate weighting in how it relates to my situation and practices. Do not turn this into any kind of a war. I and others doing the questioning are not those making a claim so do not turn the heat on the questioner. > >And it's somewhat ironic for I know of many commercial beekeepers that would >go to any end, including sacrificing colony health and/or product quality, >to make a dime. IMO that is not good bee husbandry you discuss, and if doom beckons them they probably deserve little better. In terms of husbandry a good amateur and a good professional should be essentially the same, just speed and time per hive that vary. There is however little correlation so far as I can see between minutes per colony per visit, and the quality of the attention given in those minutes. The experience, observational skill, decision making ability, and dexterity of the bee man/woman are more important. >So, the challenge is out. Just what are you 'big' guys producing? What were >your colony counts/production before the mites. And what are they now? I've >provided some numbers. Let's see who is willing to go there! Who wants to >splatter these details over the internet where everyone, including your >economic competitors can see them. Not many I'll bet;>) Classic small cell debating tactic............who did I hear make a claim there? Allen asked a reasonable question and got no acceptable type of answer. If you don't make a claim why should you have to stand scrutiny? Turn the heat back on the questioner. Not on. Make a claim and be prepared to justify it....otherwise you WILL get a lot of scepticism. FWIW, I have individual yard records, complete with yield, colony count, averages etc going back 35 years here, originally for interest, and lately as a by product of tracebility legislation that can trace every drum back to the yards of production, and follow the colonies back over the last 3 years. So I HAVE all the statistics to hand. I am happy with how things are going. And you are right, I am not going to splash it all over Bee-L, because firstly I dont want to bore people and secondly I am not claiming to have the cure all system. >I appreciate a variety of views and experience. These provide me with the >opportunity to evaluate new observations and ideas that I would never >encounter in my isolated part of the world. Me too, and the key word in there is evaluate. Once I have done so I will steal a good idea from anybody! To evaluate requires knowing something about the substance of the person giving the info. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:30:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit D. Murrell wrote: > > After incorporating checkerboarding, production increased to 140 to > 160lbs/hive. Swarming is almost non-existent. And my early spring hive > populations are huge. All of my equipment is full of bees. My management > could be classed as almost let alone. > Great to have you back. I thought you were shifting to top bars but from your post it appears not. What happened? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:40:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis, What is 'checkerboarding'? Chris In a message dated 14/11/2006 22:53:32 GMT Standard Time, demerl51@GMAIL.COM writes: After incorporating checkerboarding, production increased -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 21:29:12 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe said: >> Feeding bees to compensate for the honeybees lack of ability to cope with the conditions in it's own environment is skirting the problem. Reply: In fact I would call it contributing to the problem... -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 19:52:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Natural bee size... was, Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robert Brenchley wrote: It would be interesting to have a colony without foundation, to see what they drew when left to their own devices, but so far every time i've tried using strips, I've rapidly ended up with comb that was so far from straight I had to start bending it and cutting bits off so I could get the frames out! It would be beneficial, when talking about cell sizes and what we've tried, to include in the discussion the approximate local latitude and altitude (if applicable). This would give the rest of us an idea of what type of general climate the particular beekeeper is encountering during his/her bee year. Mike in LA (Lower Alabama) Very little freezing weather in the winter and no snow on the ground since at least 1998 when I moved here. --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:37:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Erin Martin Subject: egg laying in worker bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello all! I'm new here and had a question I thought somebody could give me some guidance on. I know that in distressed hives, workers can start laying eggs through their stingers. Does anybody know more about what happens physiologically during that change? Feel free to reply privately if you don't want to clutter the list with such basic information. Thanks for your help! Erin ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---