From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:27:06 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,FUZZY_CPILL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62EEC4907D for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SF1MM6014128 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:51 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0612D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 151984 Lines: 3653 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:42:29 +0000 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: Some Questions In-Reply-To: <000201c72524$aec98040$bc04e440@PC1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 2006-12-21 at 11:23 -0600, VEPEX, Lambert van der Veen wrote: > Somebody mentioned to me that honey has an expiring date of 3 years and > he was very serious about it. I may be mistaken but does honey have an > expiring data at all? We are obliged to put a "best before" date (EU). Then it is a matter of judgement. Are we likely to get a complaint if the lid is left off and it ferments or goes cloudy or sets if it starts as clear? My preference is to set a couple of years for clear and 3 for set. I also add to the label after the best before date, a suggestion that the lid is replaced tightly after use and if it goes cloudy to warm it overnight. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:46:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Some Questions In-Reply-To: <000201c72524$aec98040$bc04e440@PC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VEPEX, Lambert van der Veen wrote: > I may be mistaken but does honey have an > expiring data at all? > > Beekeepers do. Honey doesn't. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 08:06:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: glass vrs plastic for packaging creamed honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Scott seems to feel that packers use OPAQUE plastic packing instead of plastic because it is less expensive. Sorry, not true. Clear plastic is just as inexpensive as opaque. Take it from someone who knows. If opaque is used, it is to hide. With regard to milk being packaged in glass instead of plastic, Scott also ventured "Nothing different about the milk, but its twice as expensive as the milk in plastic...why? Other than the novelty, because glass is expensive." Again, I beg to differ. All plastic outgasses. Some much much less than others, but it all does so. Glass is inert. Moreover, glass does not cost appreciably more than high-quality plastic. I am not in Scott's market, so can't be sure but I guess the reason why milk costs a lot more in glass than plastic has to do with recylcing. Often a game is played...if you buy our milk (in glass) we will give you a credit of $.XX for every jug you bring back. (Surprise...the net cost (after credit) is just about the same as if the milk were bought in plastic.) But it costs almost as much for the producer to recycle the milk glass as to buy it new. So, why the elaborate 'deposit' and 'credit'? Duh...it is to build brand loyalty, something almost impossible to do with plastic! I know the milk business reasonably well, although I know nothing about conditions where Scott lives. Milk is milk, is milk. How to build brand loyalty? Go back to returnable bottles is one way. Interesting. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 14:06:07 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: packing crystalized honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I think rather that since glass is expensive and creamed honey is not transparent at all that choosing a plastic container instead of glass is more a choice of economics. Would you put cottage cheese into a glass container? No but then again cottage cheese is not as acidic as honey. Personally, I don't like any plastic containers for food regardless of FDA's position. Petroleum-derived plastics have compounds that act like estrogen in the human body and there is plastic everywhere these days. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:02:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: packing crystalized honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:36:22 -0600, Scot Mc Pherson wrote: >I think rather that since glass is expensive and creamed honey is not >transparent at all that choosing a plastic container instead of glass is >more a choice of economics. Plastic says "Cheap, Cheap Cheap" and while may be less expensive then glass does nothing to distinguish a higher quality, local product from a mass produced , cooked, blended and bland product from a big packer. Of course if you are just a hobbyist and not competing on a grocery shelf you would not appreciate this distinction and using plastic might make more sense for home sales or give away. In reference to your analogy of milk in a traditional, glass, returnable container having the same milk but costing twice as much......, here in Mn we have several milk producers who are doing the same, but its milk from a grass fed cow without BHT, non-homgenized with the cream on top...... and guess what .......it has more flavor and substance then the mass produced watered down Kemps milk. Scott I'm not sure you have a good understanding of how the natural & organic food segment of food production & marketing is different then the mass produced items you find at the big box or IGA type stores. In general most smaller producers take the extra steps to insure a unique quality product with full flavor and because of the "economics" of being a small producer find that a nice package (i.e. glass) while incrementally more expensive allows them to price their product at a substantial margin over the mass produced, comparitive item they are competing against. Trying to compete on a grocery shelf with a big packer and doing it on price alone IMO is a losing proposition. The packers have 60 cent honey from China and an automated line to fill and label in addition they have the distirbution system the small guy does not. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 12:21:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cosman and Whidden Honey Limited Subject: Re: glass vrs plastic for packaging creamed honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We use both glass and plastic packaging for creamed honey. The plastic tubs are a little less expensive, especially so if they are printed saving the cost of labels and the time applying them. We prefer plastic tubs for sales to supermarkets because creamed honey packed in glass will sometimes get a frosted and unsightly appearance which definitely detracts from sales. At our farmers market table and from our farm where we sell 500 gram containers in both glass and plastic side by side and at the same price, plastic tubs outsell glass jars by a very small margin. Tom Cosman -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:48:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Bees Dying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello ALL! Anybody have a copy or a link to the "report published last week by researchers in Pennsylvania and Florida" mentioned in the article? Thanks! ----------> ANOTHER ARTICLE: "Jerry Bromenshenk, a researcher from the University of Montana, examines a hive afflicted with "fall dwindle" near Brewster." "The phenomenon, termed "Fall Dwindle Disease," is discussed in a preliminary report published last week by researchers in Pennsylvania and Florida." ARTICLE "Bee Losses Puzzle Experts" http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article? AID=/20061222/NEWS/612220347/1178 ----------> Best Wishes, Joe Waggle PA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:58:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: glass honey containers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Brian Fredericksen wrote: >Trying to compete on a grocery shelf with a big packer and doing it on price alone IMO is a losing proposition. Hi When I was in Slovenija in 2003 I was surprised to see the *variety* of glass honey containers. All sorts of shapes and sizes. Something to say "buy me" other than price, I guess see: http://www.cebelarstvo-mlakar.si/images/nasi_izdelki_01.jpg http://www.fao.org/docrep/w0076e/w0076ec1.jpg http://www.thistledewfarm.com/images/honey/Fancy%20Jars.jpg -- pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:39:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Bees Dying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, My apologies. I read the article over a couple of times, and the link was 'open access'. Now I see they have changed the link to "subscribe to view". The article had a pic of Jerry Bromenshenk inspecting a frame of bees and some comments. Sorry bout the 'prompt to subscribe', I didn’t know that would happen. Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:06:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Bees dying in Florida, Georgia In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20061214070832.048f4bc0@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Bee Losses Puzzle Experts" http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061222/NEWS/612220347/1178 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:59:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Bees Dying In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-364D4ACB > Anybody have a copy or a link to the "report published last week by >researchers in Pennsylvania and Florida" mentioned in the article? >Thanks! I have the pdf. I'll send it to whoever wants it. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.22/590 - Release Date: 12/16/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:35:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: My Survivor Bees are Darker Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All! Beekeepers in these days are often quoted as saying, “My survivor bees are darker”, or “My bees are getting darker than they once were”. In the fascinating article by Steve Sheppard, “Selection and possibilities within honey bees – be careful what you are selecting for”. Steve writes: “In 1929, a Russian honey bee scientist visiting the U.S., Dr. Alpatov, noted that Italian honey bees bred and sold in the U.S. were more yellow in color than populations he had studied across Italy. He attributed the color difference to U.S. queen producers who actively selected for this trait. The tendency of U.S. breeders to produce and sell a brighter queen is perhaps understandable, given that such a 'product' could be more easily differentiated from the dark bee commonly used by beekeepers prior to that time.” (Steve Sheppard) Talking only of the Italian honeybee race here,,, We have breeders starting in the early 1900’s actively selecting for the yellow trait in Italians to help differentiate them from the German black bee. With bi-directional selection, is it possible that merely by selecting yellow Italians to differentiate them from the German black bee, breeders would also have been narrowing their genetic base by selecting against the diversity found in the Italian feral population? In affect, excluding the Italian feral population from the genetic pool which will have not undergone a change to yellow from domestic breeding practices. Because beekeepers are now seeing survivor Italians tending to be darker. Does this suggest that the feral Italians are leading the recovery in this race? IF it were a domestic honeybee led recovery, wouldn't one expect the yellow Italian types to be noticed as the survivors? Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:12:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bees Dying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe asked...Anybody have "report published last week by researchers in Pennsylvania and Florida" I don't know that the report has been published, released for general distribution. I have a copy, suggest that you contact Jerry Hayes. I'd be glad to publish it on our web site, if Penn State and the Florida participants give us permission. The report DOES not provide any answers - it acknowledges that this is a real problem, but no one knows the cause. I've just spent the week in Florida, and my colleagues have been to Pennsylvania and Georgia. We hear reports of the same in Texas - hope to get down there next month -- and possibly California. First impressions -- affected colonies have NO old bees, nor are there any dead bees in the hive or in front of the hive -- often not even the normal die off. In most cases, the queen is still present, and a cup or two of young bees are working hard to re-establish the colonies. Brood chewed out, emerging adults stuck in cells, some with tongues out. Curious note, even the hive beetles are gone -- and none of the hives are being robbed out. Occasional wingless or deformed wing bee. Colonies are in all types of habitat and crops, no common denominator. Most cases in Florida are migratory bees from New York, Maine, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania. No common management -- i.e., mite treatments, etc. Some evidence that there may be transfer of problem from hives set side by side, but so far has not spread to nearby (few hundred yards) beeyards. We see some clues concerning colonies, points of origin. We ask anyone on the list who experiences this set of problems to contact us. We want to try to map out the origin, distribution, and spread of this phenomenon. Thanks Jerry J.J. Bromenshenk Puzzling -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:31:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Re: Bees Dying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In regards to the bees dying ...I am sure they have, but I will mention it anyhow: Have they looked for a common source of food/syrup? John Horton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:44:24 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Wayne Morris, Hamilton, MT beekeeper, Memorial Comments: cc: ltarver@beealert.blackfoot.net, jglassy@lupinelogic.com, robert.seccomb@umontana.edu, steven.rice@beealert.blackfoot.net, dplummer@beealert.blackfoot.net, sdebnam@beealert.blackfoot.net, adisperser@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Im sorry to have to pass on sad news - this arrived today Dear Beekeepers: Our dear friend and vice president of the Montana State Beekeepers passed away on Mon. 18th from a drowning accident in Mexico. He was there with his family playing on the beach when he got caught in a riptide and drowned. He has been cremated and a memorial service is planned at his house on Jan. 6th at approx. 3pm. Details at this time are still in the planning stages. They also plan a memorial service in CA at a later date.The obituary will be in the Missoullian and the Ravioli County news on Dec. 26th or 27th. More information will be available then. In lieu of flowers there has been a fund established for Little Wayne the Little Wayne -college fund at the Ravioli County Bank PO Box 150, Hamilton, MT 59840. At this time his daughter Nikki will be running the business. She has very little knowledge and would appreciate any and all help. ... We sent this e-mail to the e-mail addresses we could find. IF you talk to other beekeepers please let them know. The family did not want to try and notify everyone. Right now they are very overwhelmed and in shock. Sorry for such sad news at Christmas time. Please keep the Morris family in your thoughts and prayers. Sincerely, Andy and Jodie Drange -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 05:36:23 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Bees Dying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This seems similar to what happened to some of my hives in the early years of Varroa. It seemed to affect the colonies that had earlier produced the most honey and had seemed prosperous at the previous inspection only a few weeks earlier. An extreme example was just 12 (I counted them) workers and the queen being left. The problem hasn't re-occured since I have been practicing anti varroa methods (except in one instance last year when I neglected to do so). I would suggest that with the diligent application of IPM the problem may go away. Chris In a message dated 23/12/2006 04:42:44 GMT Standard Time, BeeResearch@AOL.COM writes: First impressions -- affected colonies have NO old bees, nor are there any dead bees in the hive or in front of the hive -- often not even the normal die off. In most cases, the queen is still present, and a cup or two of young bees -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 05:44:48 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: packing crystalized honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian I DO happen to use only glass. I did not write that I would choose to pack in plastic. I pointed out why a packer/producer might make the choice in the case of creamed honey, and I gave to good reasons why that choice might be made (not to be understood as plastic being a good choice, just solid reasons why that choice is made). Please don't replace the messenger with the subject discussed. It's a habit too many of us have here on the bee-l. Perhaps what Brian should have said was (and I am shortening and paraphrasing), "I don't think those people who use plastic understand the economics." Instead of "Scot, you don't......" If I were writing about Walmart's employment policies, and I said their policies are meant to save them money. I am in no way sympathizing with Walmart. I am making a statement about Walmart and their position. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 05:54:06 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: glass vrs plastic for packaging creamed honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How can I be more clear here....... I was talking about why a choice is made, not that I make the same choice....When I say "choosing plastic is a choice of economics", it is NOT the same as me saying "I choose plastic" We use glass. We buy the milk in the glass containers. We buy veg from the local farmer's market. We keep bees without chems. How in the world you could decide that I like plastic over glass after the years of heated organic discussions about traces of "abc&xyz", I can't imagine. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:58:45 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: My Survivor Bees are Darker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/12/2006 04:40:44 GMT Standard Time, naturebee@yahoo.com writes: <> What sort of climate do you have? Being in the UK I'm no good at US conditions. There have been numerous anecdotal reports here over the years about strains getting darker with time; for instance, I remember reading somewhere that UK bees got darker during World War II, when of course imports were impossible. I've always assumed the likelihood of selection against at least some of the inherited characteristics. What could be going on in your area? Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 08:44:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Bees Dying In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-60E039A6 > >I don't know that the report has been published, released for general >distribution. I have a copy, suggest that you contact Jerry Hayes. I'd >be glad to >publish it on our web site, if Penn State and the Florida participants give >us permission. The copy arrived in my inbox, from a friend. I didn't realize it wasn't for general release, so I guess I shouldn't send it out. I will say, that they looked at just about everything. All were migratory beekeepers. All fed, but not the same sugars. All used antibiotics, but not the same type or the same methods. All but one used miticides. All used some purchased queens from 5 different states and 2 foreign countries, while one raised their own. The investigators looked at everything...the bees, the combs, the stored pollen, the beekeepers activities in the preceding season. So far, they have found no positive connection, but I assume they will. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.26/598 - Release Date: 12/22/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 09:24:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Bees Dying In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Slade wrote: > > This seems similar to what happened to some of my hives in the early years > of Varroa. The symptoms sound similar to acute varroa infestation however when I've seen this, there were always lots of dead bees and dead mites on the bottom board and house cleaning suffered. Nobody has yet mentioned seeing lots of dead mites in the hives, something that is hard to miss. And where are the dead bees? And the hive beetles? Sounds suspiciously like rats leaving a sinking ship. I guess I wouldn't be jumping to conclusions just yet. George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 09:58:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Bees Dying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wrote: >My apologies. I read the article over a couple of times, and the link >was 'open access'. Now I see they have changed the link to "subscribe to >view". I discovered that if you view the page several times, it will block you and prompts you for a password. All you need to do then, is delete your 'cookies' and the page can be viewed again. BUT,,, AHH! you have to re-log into Bee-L to post! :) Article: Thanks to Jerry for his contribution and in sharing observations. First impressions that he wrote about are intresting, and I have seen some of these symptoms in some colonies in my area as far back as July. I MUST get back later with some questions, got to go for now. PS. I can probably get a copy of the report from Dennis E,,, Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 10:47:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Bees Dying In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You should be able to just delete the cookie for that site only, not all your cookies. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 J. Waggle wrote: > BUT,,, AHH! you have to re-log into Bee-L to post! :) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 08:53:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bees Dying In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry writes: First impressions -- affected colonies have NO old bees, nor are there any dead bees in the hive or in front of the hive -- often not even the normal die off. In most cases, the queen is still present, and a cup or two of young bees are working hard to re-establish the colonies. Brood chewed out, emerging adults stuck in cells, some with tongues out. Curious note, even the hive beetles are gone -- and none of the hives are being robbed out. Occasional wingless or deformed wing bee. Reply: Interesting! Would seem to me to be almost a failed semi-annual broodnest turn driven by climate with majority non-acclimitized bees and subfamily left the most in tune, but then if they do successfully continue, will the queen lay more subfamilies again not in accord, or will the bees try to sift to hold. Also makes me wonder how much the artificial additives of treatments/feed/movement is effecting the needed acclimitizing. Sincerely, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 10:23:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Bees Dying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, > First impressions -- affected colonies have NO old bees, nor are there any > dead bees in the hive or in front of the hive -- Report from Calif. Last year and the year before some of us experienced big die offs, but thought it was from West Nile Virus spraying. I've been working with Mosquito Abatement, and I'm not so sure that pesticide is what caused it. Perhaps a virus??? But I did see dead bees in front of the colonies--otherwise symptoms similar. I hadn't fed my bees anything at the time. Honeyflows were poor. This year I'm not seeing the problem, but honeyflows were much better. This year in Calif, some HFCS was overheated by the blenders and caused bee mortality in northern Calif on a large scale--Eric Mussen will be reporting on this. Randy Oliver Calif -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 19:01:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Bees Dying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All! Having inspected some colonies with these symptoms and reviewed Jerrys great observations, I will post my ‘first impressions‘. As WRONG as I know they probably are, I consider them as first impressions, and do not stand firm on what I suggest as the situation evolves my impressions will evolve also. Jerry wrote the symptoms = * *NO old bees. *No dead bees inside or outside the hive. Here in my area,,, What comes to mind is our Chief Apiarist mentioned to me in a email the curiosity of lack of pollen in these affected colonies here in Pa, and I support this observation in the colonies I have seen exhibiting symptoms starting sometime around June-July. IMO we are looking at something that was potentially affecting the colonies several months ago (damage done and or gone) and only now investigating the 'after symptoms' as they appear in the present, and therefore symptoms observed now may not reflect the actual cause. We are investigating in many cases a dead or dying colony that may have been exhibiting clear symptoms several months ago and the death or symptoms we are seeing NOW potentially caused by other factors such as starvation, dwindling and failure to thrive ect. complicating and deceiving the investigation. >From my observations earlier this season, there seemed to be a perplexing inability for the affected colonies to collect pollen or sufficient nectar to maintain minimal brood nest functions. Due to the clear stress signs caused by this apparent lack of nutrition, I assume the colonies would have been doing all they can in reassigning of younger and younger bees to forager status, and reducing egg production due to lack of nutrition. The symptoms of dwindling I observed in some colonies was very gradual, and few dead bees inside or outside the hive was obvious to me over the length of several months. This observation therefore does not support an absconding event or rapid dwindling from varroa suggested by many, which IMO would have exhibited distinct symptoms associated with such an event had varroa been the cause. Its as if something is affecting these colonies ability to find or communicate the locations of nutritional forage, it’s as if foragers are getting confused, lost and misdirected in the field which may explain the lack of dead bees near the colony over worked and dying out in the field or lost. One thing, they certainly are not bringing sufficient pollen and nectar back to the colonies. *A cup or two of young bees are working hard to re-establish the colonies. This I am seeing also. And I may add, what small amount of bees that are left look healthy and very small broodnest seemingly healthy, EXCEPT for the apparent inability to manage adequate brood production, honey or pollen near the nest. *Brood chewed out. *Occasional wingless or deformed wing bee. My gut tells me, depending on severity, this could potentially be normal symptomatic of varroa and minor DWV and perhaps related, or perhaps not, but the timing certainly is right. *Curious note, even the hive beetles are gone. This is a great observation!!!! Due to this obvious lack of SHB in these colonies, and considering the SHB keen ability to select colonies from amongst the group that would have sufficient food. I assume the SHB voluntarily abandoned theses colonies weeks earlier as the colony was in decline due to an apparent lack of food / attractants (pollen honey). This is a great observation, because the fact that the hive beetles are gone in these colonies suggests to me that a reduction of the SHB attractants (pollen and honey) also preceded the bee dwindling event!!! If it had been a rapid dwindling or absconding event, with all the pollen and honey left behind and less bees to protect it, the SHB would have made short work of the infected colonies. This IMO is important information showing the symptoms of lack of pollen possibly occurring several months earlier. The development stage of any existing SHB could be noted and may suggest an approximate SHB departing date. It would be interesting to compare stored pollen levels in these colonies with that of unaffected colonies and also pollen content in recently stored honey. *Emerging adults stuck in cells, some with tongues out. Perhaps, this could be unrelated to the actual event and symptomatic of the later event of chilled brood caused by dwindling or stress, OR perhaps not. *And none of the hives are being robbed out. Another great observation, worthy of noting!!!! In the colonies that I have inspected here in PA, robbing was also observed to be rather non existent. I assume here the cause was because there was almost NO uncapped honey or nectar, and very little capped honey, much less odors that would cue a robbing event. This important to note because this particular observation does NOT support a rapid dwindling or absconding event. This observation is more suggestive of a gradual reduction in stored honey preceding or coinciding with a gradual dwindling of bees to match, which are IMO a prerequisite for maintaining colony stabilization and protection from robbing while the colonies fundamentals are being eroded. *Some evidence that there may be transfer of problem from hives set side by side, but so far has not spread to nearby (few hundred yards) beeyards. That these die offs are affecting single beeyards and not a yard several hundred meters away, could potentially suggest a breeding or management related factor due to the propensity for beekeepers to split colonies, leaving the daughter colonies in the same yard. So perhaps this might need investigated also, perhaps not. It might be important to find colonies that are still healthy and exhibiting symptoms in the early stages, checking pollen foraging rates and comparing levels of stored pollen, nectar. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 19:34:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Bees Dying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Interesting! Would seem to me to be almost a failed >semi-annual broodnest turn driven by climate with majority >non-acclimitized bees and subfamily left the most in tune,,,, Hello Dee! Here in PA we had a rather great early start to the first flow followed by a near ceasing of incoming nectar and pollen during the second half of the first flow. Although many packages and swarms were clearly suffering in July indicating a weather related broodnest stress. I did however notice feral swarms coping better during that time. Also makes me wonder how much the >artificial additives of treatments/feed/movement is >effecting the needed acclimitizing. Well, the majority of my feral colonies (although clearly showing sings of a reduced flow) still managed a surplus. Mid summer was different also in these feral colonies as they brooded up extremely heavy, while affected colonies I looked at had minimal brooding! I feared the ferals might brood themselves into starvation, but it was clear upon close inspection that they were managing to maintain broodnest fundamentals and a honey cap, because I specifically checked for this in these heavy brooding colonies. Although I was concerned that they were light on stores during summer and yet brooding up. Inspections revealed that these colonies were managing sufficient nectar intake to maintain broondnest build up and honey cap. And I believe this strategy actually benefited the ferals because it gave them the forager population needed to collect sufficient winter stores during the last short weeks of the season. In affect, the ferals were hedging their bets as ‘bet hedging’ is a common strategy in all of nature. Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:15:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: kathy cox Subject: Re: Bees Dying In-Reply-To: <008601c72632$165332c0$1ae84cd8@HortonFamily> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1C547EAF Are the syrups on the market from corn syrup that is genetically altered???? This has been a question I have been wondering about. Anyone in the know??? Kathy Cox Wine Country Honey www.winecountryhoney.com www.bloomfieldbeeshoney.com www.nelsonfamilyapiaries.com At 05:31 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: >In regards to the bees dying ...I am sure they have, but I will >mention it anyhow: >Have they looked for a common source of food/syrup? > >John Horton > -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.18/584 - Release Date: 12/12/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 08:27:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: My Survivor Bees are Darker In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6FFE6E5F > Beekeepers in these days are often quoted as saying, "My survivor bees are >darker", or "My bees are getting darker than they once were". I've often said this. I witnessed the "darkening" of my bees, as the yellow strains died out in the winter from Acarapis. But, this was in no way selection by me, the beekeeper. I merely introduced darker strains into my mix, and let the chips fall where they would. The dark bees survived. > >Because beekeepers are now seeing survivor Italians tending to be darker. >Does this suggest that the feral Italians are leading the recovery in this >race? How do you know these "survivor" bees are Italian? I breed from survivors, without concern for color. After years of seeing the "darkening" of my stock, I believe I'm seeing yellow bees making a comeback. I'll be watching to see where this all leads. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.26/598 - Release Date: 12/22/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 08:46:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Bees Dying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris Writes: >I would suggest that with the diligent application of IPM the problem may go >away. Hello Chris! The symptoms I am seeing in my area of Pennsylvania, whether much different than that that seen in the south, I do not know. But it seems at least in my area, we are not dealing with a typical varroa infestation. In early August when I inspected some of these colonies, I remember commenting to the owner of the bees about the strange absence of varroa or associated symptoms. July / August are time when varroa peak in our area, and the apparent lack of varroa was something that I thought was ‘out of the norm’ for the time of year. This suggested to me the possibility that varroa may not be a prime suspect in these cases, and that symptom of depressed brood rearing may have extended several weeks to more than a month earlier, well into the early flow! My explanation to the owner of the colonies was that apparently the lack of brood production was having a devastating effect on the varroa. Actually, the evidence 'as I saw it' seemed to point towards varroa, as a potential victim in this event and not a culprit. On the drive back home I was compelled to stop several times to check out the local bee forage. It seemed, although forage was not as abundant for the time of year as I would have liked to see, the affected colonies were exhibiting symptoms that I would tend to associate with severe drought. IMO, the level of bee forage available (again, not as abundant as usual) was not matching the level of stress I was seeing in these affected colonies as far as forage availabilities are concerned. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 10:42:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: My Survivor Bees are Darker Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike Writes: -- I merely introduced darker strains into my >mix, and let the chips fall where they would. The dark bees survived.-- (MP) Hello Mike! When talking the “darkening of our bees“, if you are introducing ‘darker races’ from non local sources into your bees. This IMO is comparing grapefruit to oranges, and not necessarily related to the darkening of bees often observed by beekeepers to naturally occur ‘within a group‘ of survivors. For example: In my honest opinion, it would not be an accurate assessment, if I were to obtain desired genetics from Weaver Apiaries, let the chips fall, and claim the resistance in my bees as ‘naturally occurring event’. >How do you know these "survivor" bees are Italian?--(MP) These bees are best described as Italian. Queen markings, worker markings and most associated characteristics match that of the Italians or wild Italian type more than any other strain found in my area. As breeders all over the world continue to identify and sell queens of a ‘specific race’ based solely on their knowledge of a characteristics associated with races of bees, I too am highly confident in my abilities to assess these bees as wild Italian types based solely on my experience and knowledge of associated characteristics. ,,,After years of seeing the "darkening" of my >stock, I believe I'm seeing yellow bees making a comeback.--(MP) This is true! But it is extremely important that we note, "yellows are NOT leading the recovery". When collecting ferals over a several county area, I have noticed that the ferals captured years ago that were leading the early recovery have the most interesting traits and continue to perform the best for me. So, although I am seeing a general recovery in all places, I continue to focus most bee collection efforts in these identified ‘early recovery areas‘. That yellows are lagging in the recovery in my area, is a clear indication of a corresponding lagging in traits associated with varroa resistance and survival. Perhaps, as all breeders are well aware, it can potentially be counter productive to select from a group of laggers when there are leaders to choose from. So a focus in leading recovery areas is important, as well as assessment of new feral stock to weed out those lagging, or otherwise not the best stock. My goal is to identify and select from the ‘Alpha group‘, the competitive group, the leaders in the recovery, not the followers and laggers. Have a Merry Christmas! Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 11:09:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bees Dying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Waggle has put a lot of thought into this problem. My colleagues in Penn and Georgia all report the same syndrome. All of the possible factors mentioned by Joe and others are reasonable explanations - except none holds up when you look at the different states, scenarios. Joe comments on lack of pollen and nectar -- that was the case in some of the affected colonies in Fl, but definitely not the issue in others. Beeyards managed identically - some had the problem, others did not; some had lots of nectar and pollen, others didn't. Beekeepers involved had been in different areas, used different management; some threw everything, including the kitchen sink, at mites and colony nutrition - others used virtually no chemicals or supplements. Although mostly in migratory operations, one big hit was NOT. Also, loss was no necessarily gradual - colonies moved into FL - some crashed in a couple of weeks. Joe notes that surviving queen, brood looking healthy. We saw one dramatic example of that -- and they were making good pollen/nectar stores. Yet, we also saw 'survivor colonies' that looked ok a week or two ago, but almost all were dead on re-inspection -- no bees at all. We want to know how the recovery proceeds -- will the problem re-appear when the colonies once again have old bees? We're looking at HMF and some other chemicals in the hives -- but the affected beekeepers vary so much in management practices, crops bees are near, locations, that none seem likely to be a common denominator -- over all of the operations displaying the loss. It seems we need to backtrack these colonies. So fa, I know that some were in Maine, New York, Penn, Wisconsin -- all crashed when returned to Fl. We know of losses in Penn. Has anyone seen this in Wisconsin, Maine, New York? I realize your hives are probably not available for inspection -- but keep your eyes open this spring -- and I recommend checking if you get a weather break -- for those who don't send their colonies to warm climates. Again, we want to locate any place where this is occurring. Please contact us, if you see or have seen this syndrome this year. Some report the problem as early as August of 2006. Thanks Jerry J.J. Bromenshenk Bee Alert Technology, Inc. 406-544-9007 - cell 406-541-3160 - business -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 11:47:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: My Survivor Bees are Darker Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > What sort of climate do you have? Hello Robert! My climate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Pittsburgh,_Pennsylvania > What could be going on in your area? >From my observations in collecting ferals in the early recovery process over a several county area. It appears that to the most part, darker Italian types which are more uniform looking are recovering quickly in remote type areas. More yellow types, and un-uniform yellow /dark mix subcast types are commonly found in populated areas where beekeeping is more prevalent and seem to be lagging the recovery and not performing as well in assessments. This suggests to me, a feral led recovery of darker type Italian looking bees having not been selected for the yellow trait and naturally selected for survival traits. And not suggestive of a domestic led recovery which tend to be more yellow, generally selected for yellow traits and that of economic value. Do not misunderstand me, I am not seeing any evidence of a separate darker race recovering ahead of the Italian looking types. “Italian types dominate my area and for some reason the occasional dark race colony that I collect ‘seem to do poorly for me’ and tend to get brood diseases under a system of no treatments“. What I did notice was the very earliest feral recovery occurring in what I would describe as prime bee habitat. This is overgrown farm land with a variety of forage from low growth, to shrubs, small trees and large trees. This is relatively common habitat in my area, but what I identified as being different in this area, is that it seemed to have a very large number of potentially prime voids in the from of abandoned silos, un-insulated old structures, farm houses etc. dotting the landscape, and also 100 year plus border trees with potential cavities lining the fence rows and property lines. However, seeing a recovery here first does not preclude an early recovery occurring in remote woodland areas and similar places where there are no citizens to report a feral nest or swarm. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 12:43:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: My Survivor Bees are Darker In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-41F54A50 > >For example: >In my honest opinion, it would not be an accurate assessment, if I were to >obtain desired genetics from Weaver Apiaries, let the chips fall, and >claim the resistance in my bees as 'naturally occurring event'. But, how about 15 years later, after not buying any queens in that time, and having most colonies supercede many times, and breeding from survivors...not selecting for color, but only by performance... Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.26/598 - Release Date: 12/22/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 13:10:53 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Bees Dying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 24/12/2006 14:30:16 GMT Standard Time, naturebee@YAHOO.COM writes: On the drive back home I was compelled to stop several times to check out the local bee forage. It seemed, although forage was not as abundant for the time of year as I would have liked to see, the affected colonies were exhibiting symptoms How many colonies are kept in one location and have to compete for the available forage? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 14:30:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: My Survivor Bees are Darker Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit J. Waggle wrote: >These bees are best described as Italian. I would suggest that none of the bees in the United States are "best described as Italian." We haven't imported bees from Italy in almost a hundred years. Color has been artificially enhanced by selection so that yellowish bees are yellower and black bees are blacker than they would be, even in their native ranges. (See my article in the American Bee Journal on honey bee color.) By stopping this color selection process, bees tend toward a muddy brown that accurately reflects the mixed parentage of the bees. I suggest that the honey bees of the US be called "honey bees of the US" with the exception of the Russian types which are a recent import, and perhaps some of the strains that have been isolated by instrumental insemination. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 14:36:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Bees Dying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: >Has anyone seen this in Wisconsin, Maine, New York? Towards the end of the inspection season I saw a lot of bees that were headed south and I thought to myself "it's a good thing they are moving because they wouldn't have made it through a NY winter". I thought they were tanking due to very heavy mite loads and the related illnesses. The beekeepers who were not moving generally had better looking colonies, though not all were well above par. Of courser, you need a lot of young bees to winter over, and if the mites are getting the upper hand, they probably don't have this. Happy Holidays! pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 11:38:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: My Survivor Bees are Darker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Beekeepers in these days are often quoted as saying, "My survivor bees are > >darker", or "My bees are getting darker than they once were". Years ago, when I stopped selecting for color (in my mostly Italian bees), and simply started selecting for the best performing bees (this was before varroa), I noticed that the color tended to drift toward a darkish leather. My recent mite-resistant lines are yellowish, with an unusual pattern of black markings. I'll be interested to see if there is a color drift over the next several generations. Randy Oliver Calif -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 15:23:42 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Rose Subject: Re: Bees Dying In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all I don't normally post here but I wonder if the problems are associated with Imidacloprid poisoning. In France it has affected the bees' nervous system and rendered them incapable of navigating their way home after foraging missions. In such circumstances one might expect the colonies to dwindle with no sign of dead bees. It would also explain the pollen deficiencies. The varroa may have been affected by the same insecticide. Just a thought - I'm no expert. Steve Rose, England -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:45:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Bees Dying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Rose asked about Imidacloprid poisoning. I asked the same, since our work indicates similar results to that seen in France. But, its hard to imagine that the nicotinics have suddenly been used all over the NE U.S. And, I looked at colonies (yards) on different sides of the same field, orchard, etc. -- some are affected, others aren't. If it were something being administered to the plants in a field, the other yards should have shown a response. If it were a long term effect -- from a previous location -- that still leaves us with several eastern states and Wisconsin. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 17:35:07 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Bees Dying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 24/12/2006 21:05:42 GMT Standard Time, steverose@TISCALI.CO.UK writes: the problems are associated with Imidacloprid poisoning. In France it has affected the bees' nervous system Steve, Is this proven fact or supposition? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 18:03:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: My Survivor Bees are Darker Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I would suggest that none of the bees in the United States are "best >described as Italian." We haven't imported bees from Italy in almost a >hundred years. Color has been artificially enhanced by selection so that >yellowish bees are yellower and black bees are blacker than they would be, >even in their native ranges. Hello PB! You may well be correct, but leafing thru the ABJ, I see many breeders selling what they describe as Italians. I’m not sure what name breeders would be expected to use in place of the name that would best reflect the Italian characteristics of this bee sold in America they are calling Italian. Feral Italians were no doubt thriving in the woodlands, having escaped domestication 100 years ago, and out of mans domain escaping yellowazation of our bees to some degree. We could go thru the ABJ and say the same thing about most breeds of bees being sold today. But for now, I am content to call my bees best described as ‘wild Italian ferals’. Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 13:26:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bees Dying In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Still looks like a failed compounded broodnest turn and in the spring will happen that corresponding time per local again. Dee- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 22:00:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Bees Dying In-Reply-To: <20061224212636.15286.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-61E2757B > Still looks like a failed compounded broodnest turn and in >the spring will happen that corresponding time per local >again. > >Dee- What?? Could you say that again. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.26/598 - Release Date: 12/22/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 10:40:32 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Rose Subject: Re: Bees Dying In-Reply-To: <4bf.797141e.32c05a9b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris Slade wrote: > Is this proven fact or supposition? > I have seen so many references to it that at the time of posting I thought it was fact. However, I think the French beekeepers managed to get the chemical banned for use with sunflowers and the BBKA article (snippet below) by Graham White indicates that imidacloprid does have an effect in the right concentrations. “Klaus Wallner confirmed in his study of Imidacloprid prepared Phacelia with a burden of 50 g/hectare, that the bee’s honey-sac average contamination was 5ppb and the pollen taken from the 'pollen baskets' of the bees contained 7ppb. The centrifuged honey contamination level could not (yet) be ascertained. The level was less than the 3ppb trace ability level for honey. * Clarification in ** France**: * In a report issued by the French Agriculture Ministry it was stated: According to the sunflower variety the residues in the flower on the 65th day (at start of blossom period) varied between 2.5ppb (Pharon) and 8.7ppb (Natil). These values could possibly be higher at point of harvest. The sunflower pollen is contaminated at an average level of 3ppb (up to 11 ppb max.). In untreated plantings (sunflower, rape and corn), which were planted in Imidacloprid-contaminated-soil, up to 7.4ppb was detected in the flowers. “The Bayer study produced a mortality rate due to Imidacloprid for bees as follows: The LD 50 (the lethal dose which kills 50% of test organisms within 48 hours) lay between 3.7 and 40.9 Nanogrammes of Imidacloprid per bee. Long term injury was investigated by Bonmatin. He achieved an LD 50 after 8 days by feeding individual bees an Imidacloprid/ sugar solution of 0.1 ppb. The substance showed itself to be highly toxic when delivered over time.” The complete article can be found here : www.bbka.org.uk/articles/imidacloprid.php It also includes some useful references. All the best Steve Rose -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 11:21:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Brian_Fredericksen?= Subject: Re: Bees Dying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Its hard to know what to believe on this topic Effects on Other Animals (Nontarget species) Imidacloprid is highly toxic to bees if used as a foliar application, especially during flowering, but is not considered a hazard to bees when used as a seed treatment (3) (3) Kidd, H. and D. James (eds.). 1994. Agrochemicals Handbook. Third Edition. Royal Society of Chemistry. Cambridge, England. internet source: http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/haloxyfop-methylparathio n/imidacloprid-ext.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 12:34:38 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Insanity in the Family Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am pleased to report that my son Charlie survived the experience of dashing into the sea dressed as a bee, complete with a Bees for Development logo. It was a very grey and foggy morning and the unfortunates in the continent were probably cut off again. The only colour was from Charlie and the other idiots who included a number that started out blue, being annointed with woad or similar; there was a whale with 8 legs; a complete wedding party including cake; and of course Santa. Charlie took some trouble over his garb, copying the wing shape from Snodgrass, but unfortunately he got the veins wrong, and, to be frank, he was tarsally and abdominally challenged. His eyes and antennae looked good though. The air temperature had fortunately risen to about 5C and the sea was warmer still. Nevertheless he was very chilled when he emerged after 10 mintutes or so and I gave him a large sponful of honey to help fight off the hypothermia. Many thanks to anybody who chose to donate on line to Bees for Development and apologies that this is being posted to two lists; I crave the indulgence of the moderators. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 14:31:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Bees Dying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Steve! Heres some stuff: ====ARTICLE====> The Union of French Apiarists (Unaf) is campaigning against pesticides, which it says are destroying the industry. "These molecules are neurotoxins which disorientate the bee and make it impossible for it to find the hive again," Unaf president Henri Clement told AFP. But others have blamed diversification for the decline, saying attempts by beekeepers to increase production by importing unadapted foreign varieties of bee have backfired. Bees reared in cities 'healthier' http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4621184.stm =======END=====> I would like to find if there are manuscripts related to the statement by the UNAF president. Also I have comment by Thiele Consult PR-Team in Germany (peaking of pesticides and contamination) “,,,,can not only lead to communication - disorders within the colony, but causes by that also till now unexplainable phenomena. Because, if the communication is disturbed, the nectar - and pollen foragers can not decipher that "bee language" in the hive anymore, or too less foragers react on the bee dances (which show up the distance and quality of the feed source), thus too less nutritious pollen resp. nectar is going to be collected and the colony dies by starvation.” Looking for manuscripts related to this also. Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 19:18:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Bees Dying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Jerry & All, Thanks for all the help! For this letter, I wish to place colonies with associated absconding type symptoms in a separate category, and consider for a moment only colonies that tend to have symptoms of small clusters with egg laying queen. Since there is such a wide ranging of associated symptoms, I feel it is essential to separate and categorize them accordingly. Looking to gather some opinions and first impressions related to observations described below so I can better focus on symptoms I find interesting, and observed earlier this season in some colonies. Sorry bout so many questions. Review again, observations by Jerry: = * * NO old bees * nor are there any dead bees in the hive or in front of the hive * often not even the normal die off * In most cases, the queen is still present, and a cup or two of young bees are working hard to re-establish the colonies Would those having observed similar symptoms, especially the emphasis on NO old bees and small clusters in the hive. In your opinion, do you think it is suggestive of broodnest worker depletion due to intense forager recruitment (reassignment in division of labor)? In my view, it is not suggestive of an inward reinforcement due to young bee depletion caused by broodnest disease. Which one might expect to see forager bees in the broodnest, reassigning to fortify failing broodnest fundamentals. Instead, the lack of old bees suggests an intense outward forager recruitment behavior. I’m also interested if those observing these symptoms noticed signs of fresh nectar near the brood, (indications of very recent foraging)? ,,,, and proximity and quantity of very recent pollen? Were ‘old pollen stores’ located within the broodnest area (apx distance of 3 or so frames each way) near the small cluster tending to be depleted? * Brood chewed out, emerging adults stuck in cells, some with tongues out. Just wondering what better describes this symptom, to get a better feel for what is happening. 1) Is this symptom more suggestive a chewing out of pupa for the purpose of colony clean up and expansion? In other words, a recovery event, and clean out advancing towards the broodnest peripheral? If so: Is it suggestive of a rapid contraction of bee population and abandonment of brood, followed by chilling or malnourishment of the brood, and re-expansion, cleaning out of this chilled brood in a recovery effort? OR 2) Is this symptom more suggestive of an attempt to remove dead brood for the purpose of containment of some disease, In other words, a clean up towards the core of the broodnest and not for colony expansion? Also wondering, in the observation of “cup or two of young bees are working hard to re-establish the colonies”, are we also observing an ’obvious’ lacking of larvae in any particular stage of development?,,, or an unbalance level in the egg, larvea, and pupa stages? I know that you stated these bees were “working hard to re-establish the colonies”. Please define more clearly, does this statement mean there was a ‘recovery’, in progress? In other words, were they on the upswing? OR Do you mean, working hard to reestablish the colony that is best described as in decline, or on a down swing? OR Recovering with no clear inclination of colony growth or decline? Very Best Regards, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 17:51:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bees Dying In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20061224215907.018ef998@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Still looks like a failed compounded broodnest turn and in >the spring will happen that corresponding time per local >again. > >Dee- What?? Could you say that again. Mike There are two critical times to bees for continuance IMPOV, 1) the late Summer/Fall broodnest turnover going from short-lived honeybees to long-lived honeybees; 2) the early Spring broodnest turnover going from Long-lived honeybees to short-lived honeybees. You breach any/or all of the requirements and you have trouble, and many beekeepers nowadays breach more then you can count on the fingers of one hand leading to bigtime troubles. For the broodnest turnover is also a broodnest cleansing time and resetup time for stores for continuance.All factors have to be taken into consideration that effect the turn and I just don't see it being done anymore.......FWIW. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 05:19:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Hugo_Thone?= Subject: sick people Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This makes me sooooo sad http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1845064&page=1 Especially the comments are scaring . peaceful X-mas, Hugo (half a bee) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 00:42:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Bees Dying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, I am on the road so may not be able to respond to comments often. Diagnois of beekeeping problems *out of the ordinary* are difficult when looking at the deadouts and almost dead hives. A close look into the hives left alive might provide valuable information. Like Joe W. said the *lack of old bees* seems a clue to the problem. However the old bees are the first to *jump ship* when problems happen in a hive. They simply drift to other hives. The absence of old bees could be from shortened life span which could come from a variety of sources. Kieth suggested nosema which can take weeks off a bees lifespan. A possiblity but should be easily detected by our experts. An insecticide kill and the bees not making back to the hive would be my first guess a decade ago. Because Jerry says most the problems come from commercial migratory beekeepers I suspect those beekeepers are not being truthful about every treatment which has been applied. Without *all* the facts the diagnosis is hard. The current $10,000 fine for illegal treatments could cause many to remain silent on every treatment which has been used. One of my close friends was fined around six years ago. The only time the fine has been used to my understanding. Kathy suggested fructose. The only time I have heard of fructose kills has been in a couple isolated cases of beekeepers shipped the wrong mix and a couple times with beekeepers using plant scrap. Fructose would be low on my list of causes. Many of my friends from over the pond are wondering if a *new* beekeeping problem is happening. I do not believe so. My opinion is beekeeping is simply weeding out the *business as usual* beekeepers. Those beekeepers which are not rotating out comtaminated comb. Those testing and keeping varroa loads low are not seeing virus problems. Those which are running the same comb they have been using chemicals on for the last fifteen years. Never monitor varroa load and treat in late October ( instead of August in Midwest) seem to be having the most problems. Those trying to reuse brood comb with a high amount of virus contamination seem to be having problems. Jeff Pettis tells of seeing everything the experts have observed this go around as far back as 2002 in his presentations. Abscounding Jeff says in common in hives with contaminated comb. Abscounding has always been rare in EU bees so why becoming more common? >From my sources I hear (although the USDA is now hearing of the problem) some of these beekeepers are in their third or fourth year of trying to keep bees alive on the same brood comb. A Georgia beekeeper said his problems like above went away when comb was changed. A trip to Florida to see the largest pile of contaminated comb in the U.S. will show the amount of comb recycled by a former large beekeeper when he saw many of the problems being discussed. I had hoped my friend Jerry B. could have came up with a concrete answer to what has happened but understand not a single problem may be the source but a combination of problems. Beekeeping continues to get complicated. Seems a long time ago when all I had to worry about was foulbrood and the weather. Happy Holidays! Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 06:41:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bees Dying In-Reply-To: <897917.99755.qm@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting guesses going on here. One of my hobbies is repairing things, from TVs to clothes washers. In most of these repairs, I have to start with the obvious first, otherwise I waste my time chasing the esoteric. Some of the things I look for are: Has it happened before? I like to keep records of my repairs since often it is the same part that fails and I can see that the symptoms are the same. There are records of massive bee kills. Some culprits were Tracheal/Varroa mites, off spec HFCS, AFB, pesticides, and a slew of other bacterial and viral diseases. What is common to the problem? So are the bees dying on the west coast or just the east? If so, what is common to them? Jerry noted that they have moved between Maine and Florida, so it would not be unusual to have the symptoms along the east coast. If they are dying all along the coast, you can eliminate the weather since it certainly is not common in every location. It is also obvious that beekeepers vary in their practices in keeping bees, so that can be eliminated. What is common to what is still working? In my electronic repair do I still have sound, horizontal sync, color...? For the bees, what is common with the surviving colonies? Is a specific race not effected? Is a specific location (away from possible pesticides) free from the problem? Then I start measuring voltages and continuity, so with bees it will be Beltsville or other labs to check on disease or pesticides. When all else fails, I might easter egg the problem, which is to put a good part in place of the bad one and give it the smoke test, a very bad practice which I would have chewed out the sailors who worked for me if they did it. And they did. Just like I did. So move good colonies into the effected areas and see what happens. I think the key in this problem is to stay away from agendas, which I see too much of on this list. We take a problem and assign our prejudices to the solution. This is really a detective story (which is how I look at my dead appliance) where the clues are sifted, evaluated and accepted or discarded. Just because we do not like one of the characters in our story, that does not mean they are guilty. For that we need proof. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 10:24:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Bees Dying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: >I think the key in this problem is to stay away from agendas, which I >see too much of on this list. Right. I try to avoid making conjecture on things I know nothing about. There are some excellent minds working on the facts of this problem and I am eager to hear their conclusions. Of course, the real question is whether the colonies will be able to recover. The big plus of moving to the south in winter is getting the opportunity to resurrect colonies. Having the field force wiped out is nothing new. Beekeepers in San Diego move their hives to the irrigated desert areas in summer to get alfalfa honey. They get a fair crop but the bees are wrecked by the heat and sprays. Then they bring them back to the coast into the avocados or eucalyptus and in a few months they come back around. So this story is just starting. If the Florida bees bounce back there'll be a happy ending. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:27:52 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: bees disappearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All =20 I'm changing the subject -- bees dying implies dead bees at/near hive. I=20 saw clean bottom boards, no piles of dead bees anywhere. Beeyards were=20 uncHello Jerry & All, Joe had lots of comments, questions: =20 =20 These are not different observations. The small clusters with egg laying=20 queen appear to be the remnant populations following absconding. These wer= e=20 all colonies that in a matter of a few days went from populous, with all ag= es=20 of bees, to a remnant with very few bees -- all young. =20 =20 These colonies are struggling to meet all of the=20 requirements -- there are foragers, and they also are very young. =20 =20 We saw everything from copious stores of pollen, nectar, honey - to=20 shortfalls. But none of the variations on this theme explain the losses --= we had=20 yards with lots of old stores, yards with abundant new stores, and yards ba= rely=20 making resource needs -- all displayed the same syndrome.=20 *= =20 The chewed out brood appeared healthy - not rotting, discolored. Bees head= s=20 out, etc. All seem to be more an artifact of insufficient bees to tend, feed - than o= f=20 a disease per se. =20 Also, there often had been a brood break, but recoverying colonies had all =20 stages of brood. =20 =20 =20 =20 We saw both -- 'survivor colonies' that appeared to be still going downhill= ,=20 'survivor colonies that perished in the last week AND 'survivor colonies'=20 that were slowly coming back -- brood, foraging, etc. My opinion, this has NOT played out yet. Whole yards were wiped out, other= =20 yards are still in the downward spiral, and some colonies are coming back. =20 Obviously, the ones on the downward path, and any new locations are of =20 interest - 'catch it in the act' so to speak. Otherwise, as Bob Harrison =20 commented, we were mainly conducting autopsies. Need to move to diagnosis. =20 Since Monday, I have reports of this having occurred in Ohio and =20 Connecticut. We really need to backtrack this to its origins, track its di= stribution=20 regionally, maybe nationally. My concern, with the high rental prices for=20 almonds, east coast beekeepers have been moving bees to California and back= --=20 fundamentally changing migration routes. One of my team will be in Califor= nia=20 this week to check out report bee losses - don't know if its the same=20 syndrome or something else. =20 We also need to get to Texas, where we have further reports of bee losses. =20 The list can help us locate beekeepers with this problem (over the past =20 year). Some of the losses occurred as far back as August, maybe even earli= er in=20 northern states. =20 Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:48:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Bees Dying In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-FD24475 > The big plus of moving to the south in winter is getting the >opportunity to resurrect colonies. Yes, true. But, is that part of the problem to begin with? My only experience moving bees to Florida was, in my opinion, a disaster. Rather than, in some way, helping my bees stay healthy through the winter, it took 2 years for my bees to recover from the chalk, and queen losses. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.28/604 - Release Date: 12/26/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:45:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Bees Dying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> The big plus of moving to the south in winter is getting the >>opportunity to resurrect colonies. > >Yes, true. But, is that part of the problem to begin with? Maybe, but my point was that those colonies, if they weren't moved south, would never come back. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 16:04:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bees Dying In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20061226124425.036f8ad0@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike writes: is that part of the problem to begin with? Reply: Probably! For which area of the country are they then getting into sync with for acclimitizing to local flora for better health/broodturns? Do you want them in tune with local flora your area for working locally (including local region), or southern in a different region with different timings basically, not counting other things that could be not natural. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 08:06:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard Kogan Subject: sick people MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Hugo and friends; That story was indeed sad!=A0 Was it Einstein who said "the difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits"? May our new year be filled with joy and honey!=A0=A0 Howard Kogan -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:16:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Re: bees disappearing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Guys, I've experienced the same kind of bee trouble in the early 70's before mites and beetles, treatments, etc. I'd inspect a beeyard in the late spring. It would be a boomer. Returning 3 days later, all the bees would be gone with only a few cups of young bees, lots of honey and brood, and the occasional queen left in the hives. A yard would be left with a hive or two of unaffected bees. There wouldn't be any evidence of pesticide poisoning as no dead bees would be found in the yard or in the hives. And this occurred before any pesticide were applied to the area crops. At the time, we called this disappearing disease. It was devastating when, at its height. I lost about 400 colonies per week. Other beekeepers experienced the same. Most of the losses occurred in the Western states for a few years and then the disappearing disease disappeared. Once the dandelions starting blooming the disease abated. It was attributed by researchers at the Laramie Bee Lab to an influx of African genetics. Writing about this on beesource, Loggermike, a NE California beekeeper wrote: "I remember being told about this in the 70s by a Chico,Ca. beekeep who called it 'fly away'. He said it was due to African genes and the bees would fly out in cool weather never to return. They had to do 100% requeening to get rid of that strain. No personal experience with that, just what I was told." Regards Dennis Thinking maybe this could be another clue to this mystery -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:11:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: News from George Imirie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I thought I'd pass on this new from George Imirie (GImirie@aol.com) to BEE-L. Happy New Year all! Aaron Morris >From George: Christmas Eve 2006 Merry Christmas and Happy New year Hi Y'all, Yep, I am STILL ALIVE, and the esophageal cancer is in partial remission. I thought that I would write one letter to several of my close friends who would spread the word among the myriad number of friends that I have, particularly among the MASTER BEEKEEPERS, bee SCIENTISTS, QUEEN breeders, and bee EQUIPMENT dealers. The FIVE strokes that I had between 1990 and 1999 were far more injurious to my mental health than the cancer discovered 2 years ago! I lost my ability to WALK in 1996, and get around in electric scooter and now a "walker" in the house; but the loss of VOICE in 1999 is FAR WORSE, because I can no longer LECTURE, TEACH, or COMMUNICATE. The cancer in my throat just gives me a minor sore throat, but lots of heavy phlegm. My voice is little more than a whisper, and my diction is so bad that few can understand me in telephone conversation. Upon discovery of cancer, and being in the CENTER of United States foremost medical centers, the Washington-Baltimore area with Johns Hopkins, National Institutes of Health, and the Lombardi Cancer Center at Georgetown University Hospital, I chose Georgetown, notably because it is a TEACHING hospital with its OWN staff of a multitude of speciaiist physicians and research physicians, and they SELECTED me as a patient because of my SCIENCE background in ATOMIC medicine. First, I was given RADIATION therapy for 5 days per week for 6 weeks, followed by CHEMO therapy. Not satisfied with those results, they asked me try LASER BEAM therapy of by esophagus. ONLY Johns Hopkins and Georgetown have been doing this for about 3 years, and Mayo Clinic just started. You are injected with chemicals that make you EXTREMELY sensitive to any type of light, particularly DAYLIGHT. Two days later they put an endoscope down your esophagus. take biopsies of the throat and upper stomach, burn the cancerous cellls with LASER BEAMS (no pain whatsoever), and 48 hours later, do another endoscopy of the throat looking for missed spots and taking all kinds of photographs. The worse part is that I dare not let any part of my body be exposed to any bright light for the next 30-45 days in fear of a bad sunburn, so I read, study, and watch TV in a dark room at home. My next treatment is January 15th, and "who knows", maybe I might go in long term remission of cancer, or maybe conditions are worse. In spite of all these problems, I am in GOOD SPIRITS. WHY? When my wife of 59 years of marriage died of pancreatic cancer and diabetes 4 years ago, I being unable to WALK or TALK really thought of suicide because of depression and LONLINESS. Three momths after Valerie's death, a Nevada beekeeper e-mailed me that MarJeanne, an "employee" of mine when I was testing atomic bombs back in the 1950's was widowed. I had not had any contact with her for 49 years, but the Mormon Church gave me her address and phone number. I telephoned her and she too was alone in her big house with swiming pool and very LONELY, so she flew from Las Vegas to Washington to visit me. She has 2 Great grandchildren, and I have 4 almost teenage. We spend about 12-16 weeks per year with each other and planned to marry, until I was diagnosed with cancer, where upon I canceled those plans. She will be here for 2 weeks over New Years, and return again for 8 weeks in May and June for traveling together in my van for DISABLED. We go both to the Mormon services and the Presbyterian services every Sunday "keeping in touch with God", and the Catholic medical staff at Georgetown treat us as "royalty". GOOD SPIRITS? YOU BETCHA! Out of my graduating class of 106, only 17 are thought to be alive and I was to only one of my class to make HOMECOMING last October, and the spectators ROARED when I "paraded" down the field on my motor scooter, Both MarJeanne and I CRIED. Although I only have 8 Colonies of bees now (I had 30 on December 7, 1941 PEARL HARBOR) all are strong, raring to go after the first nectar in April, I surely MISS "educating" beekeepers, and instructing them how to KEEP bees. I am ashamed to say that our NON-AGRARIAN society of today know little more about honey bees other than "sting", and the majority of our new beekeepers just REFUSE to learn or spend much time with bees, and constantly blame mites, bad bees, lousy queens, the goverment, neighbors, disease, even full moons for their loss of bees. Meanwhile, I don't lose hardly any bees and have to give them away to keep bee population down. I MIGHT have a plan to announce to Maryland beekeepers this spring to get them more "educated" about bees, but I want to talk to Dewey Caron about it first. My January cancer treatment will be a factor in my decision. THAT'S ALL! Except it would not be me if I did not CHALLENGE each of you knowledgeable beekeepers; SO each of you start giving some TIME and HELP to those fairly new to beekeeping, so they start getting some EDUCATION about how to KEEP bees and ENJOY bees. I can no longer do it, and there are precious few really trying to help this education PROBLEM. SHUCKS, there are still hobbyists out there that believe Terramycin KILLS American Foul Brood, nor realize that their infected colonies are spreading AFB to wild bees and other beekeepers colonies! What about those beekeepers who don't mark their queens, and have no idea of the age of any queen in their apiary? I sure MISS going to the meetings of ABF, EAS, NHB, and AHP, where I learned SO MUCH year after year!!! NEXT year will be my 75th year of beekeeping at my home in Maryland, which predates the founding of any of these bee associations Have a great year and lots of fun with your bees in 2007! George W. Imirie, Jr. 12705 Circle Drive, Glen Hills Rockville, MD 20850 GImasterBK. AOL.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 08:45:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Bees Dying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>For which area of the country are they then getting into sync with for acclimitizing to local flora for better health/broodturns? I would assume that these beekeepers have been practicing the same migrations for years, without experiencing this problem. This appears to be an unprecedented problem. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:10:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: bees disappearing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A little history is in order: Excerpts: Disappearing Disease by James E. Tew Some History The condition was first described in 1915 and was called Disappearing Disease because the disease was self-limiting and disappeared. Through the years, that name has increasingly been broadened to describe any mysterious instance where adult bees disappear - not the disease. Confusing isn t it? If the bees have disappeared, then the disease is gone, too. Right? From 1915 until this time, no single pathogen has even been isolated. Other possible names for the ailment are: Spring Dwindling, Fall Dwindling, May Disease, and Autumn Collapse. The Isle of Wight Disease, caused by tracheal mites, has many similarities to Disappearing Disease. The reported symptoms are broad and indistinct appearing to be a collage of characteristics. In 1915, after a particularly wet Spring, significant colony losses were reported. One beekeeper lost 400 hives. The problem was noted in multiple states from Florida to California. Hives came out the Winter in good shape, but adult bees began to vanish at the beginning of the Spring nectar flow. In afflicted apiaries, at best, honey crops were reduced. At worst, colonies were essentially emptied of adult bees. During subsequent years, now and then, reports were posted presenting Disappearing Disease as the cause of occasional colony losses. Characteristics of Disappearing Disease Adult bee loss with no accumulation at the hive entrance. Adult bee loss after a cool damp Spring - though losses have also been reported in the Summer and Autumn. Queens are the last hive individuals to be affected. Pollen and honey stores are strangely normal. A disproportionate brood/adult bee ratio. etc see: http://www.orsba.org/htdocs/download/Dtew.htm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:26:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Migratory Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: >Probably! For which area of the country are they then >getting into sync with for acclimitizing to local flora for >better health/broodturns? Do you want them in tune with >local flora your area for working locally (including local >region), or southern in a different region with different >timings basically, not counting other things that could be >not natural. But, we are talking about *migratory beekeeping*. The idea of acclimation really doesn't apply here (if anywhere). One of the characteristics of honey bees (and people) is their ability to adapt to almost any climate. Some species even migrate -- hundreds of miles -- in order to take advantage of seasonal changes. Of course, the African bee has colonized almost every country in the Americas, without need of the help of migratory beekeepers. Migratory beekeeping has been carried on for thousands of years and the miracle is that bees put up with it. Henry Thoreau wrote in 1842: > The keeping of bees, for instance, is a very slight interference. It is like directing the sunbeams. All nations, from the remotest antiquity, have thus fingered nature. > "Columella tells us," says he, "that the inhabitants of Arabia sent their hives into Attica to benefit by the later-blowing flowers." Annually are the hives, in immense pyramids, carried up the Nile in boats, and suffered to float slowly down the stream by night, resting by day, as the flowers put forth along the banks; and they determine the richness of any locality, and so the profitableness of delay, by the sinking of the boat in the water. > True, there is treachery and selfishness behind all this; but these things suggest to the poetic mind what might be done. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 13:37:31 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Migratory Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 27/12/2006 17:43:19 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: But, we are talking about *migratory beekeeping*. The idea of acclimation really doesn't apply here (if anywhere). One of the characteristics of honey bees (and people) is their ability to adapt to almost any climate. Nevertheless there is evidence that bees become accustomed to and thrive better in conditions to which, as a colony, they have been bred. The late Professor Len Heath kept bees on the high moorland of Dartmoor (SW UK) and also on lower ground nearer the coast of Plymouth. He reported that bees moved from one location another didn't do as well as those that were already there. There were reports from France a few years ago that when bees from the Paris area were moved to the SW and vice versa it was a couple of years before they caught up with the locals. Certainly bees are very adaptable: this is how they have managed to survive so long and so widely spread through very severe climate changes over millennia but there is a difference between surviving and thriving. We tend to measure things from our own point of view - usually how great a honey crop we can extract from a colony of bees. Or whether they have enough frames of brood at a certain time to entitle the beekeeper to pollination payments. Thus bees that are taken chasing crops or are artificially fed to stimulate accelerated out of season brood rearing and don't die in the process are likely to be accounted successful. Perhaps we need another bee-centric measure. As Peter reminds us; some species of honeybees do naturally migrate with the climate. Apis dorsata and laboriosa in India spring to mind as well as scutellata in parts of Africa; however this is not a characteristic normally associated with Apis mellifera mellifera, ligustica or carnica which are the ones with which most beekeepers are familiar and aim to stick with. In another mail Peter quotes Tew in associating Isle of Wight Disease with tracheal mites. Leslie Bailey, the author of Honey Bee Pathology, casts much doubt on this linkage and suggests that one of the paralysis viruses was the most likely cause of that dwindling of bees; however the symptoms do not exactly match those currently described, but many more viruses are now known each with their own set of symptoms or none. Bailey is very insistent that the more colonies of bees kept in one location the more likely trouble is to arise. I expect that those looking into the present disappearances will be aware of this and be able to say that, where there are problems, how many hives there are within, say, a kilometre, or were before the colony was moved. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:47:49 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Migratory Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> "Columella tells us," says he, "that the inhabitants of Arabia sent their > hives into Attica to benefit by the later-blowing flowers." Annually are > the > hives, in immense pyramids, carried up the Nile in boats, and suffered to > float slowly down the stream by night, resting by day, as the flowers put > forth along the banks; and they determine the richness of any locality, > and > so the profitableness of delay, by the sinking of the boat in the water. May I just thank all those who tried to help me find beekeepers in the Luxor area? Apparently, despite the quote above, there is no beekeeping around Luxor - it is all in Lower Egypt (perhaps why the bee was the symbol of Lower Egypt). We saw plenty of bees, but they were all hieroglyphs! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 14:39:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: AFB in Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Greetings! Winter is a great time for reading over stuff we might have missed over the years! I stumbled on this little bit of info. I have always opposed the "shaking method" of treating AFB as penny-wise and pound-foolish ... Dr. Steve Pernal, who works in one of the last Canadian government funded bee research facilities in Beaverlodge, Alberta, Canada, arrived at his job when American foulbrood (AFB) was really causing problems for some commercial beekeepers. Steve found that the best sample to take for AFB spores in a colony is the nurse bees. They turn out to be very good indicators of the level of contamination in the boxes. In some cases, 100% of the bees in a sample were contaminated. Eric Mussen Mar./Apr. 2004 -- pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 17:55:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Migratory Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris Slade wrote: >Nevertheless there is evidence that bees become accustomed to and thrive >better in conditions to which, as a colony, they have been bred. Yes, well, I would hesitate for a moment before attributing cause and effect. These are quite frequently difficult to ascertain, as so much of life is inextricably interconnected. For example, what appears on face to be "bees acclimating to an area" may in fact be selection by the beekeeper. The bees didn't change, he simply picked out the ones that did the best for him. As we all know, Brother Adam tramped the world over to find bees to "create" a strain for his area. If any bees would have been acclimated, it would have been the ones he was trying to replace. Bottom line: once we stick our hands into to the mix, evolution is relegated to the back seat. I consider the African bee to be evolution's answer to the problem of honey bee survival ;) pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 23:09:12 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Migratory Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote > Nevertheless there is evidence that bees become accustomed to and thrive > better in conditions to which, as a colony, they have been bred. The late > Professor Len Heath kept bees on the high moorland of Dartmoor (SW UK) and > also on > lower ground nearer the coast of Plymouth. He reported that bees moved > from > one location another didn't do as well as those that were already there. Presumably Len was moving colonies up on to the heather from the coast. As there is always some loss of adult bees resulting from a move, I would expect that those colonies would not do as well as those that had not been moved, especially given the unpredictability of when heather will yield and that colonies would have little time to recover from the move, as they are usually on the moor for only perhaps 4-6 weeks at the most. I have been taking bees to the moors for 25 years and, except for one year, those colonies have always been the best in the following spring, probably because the late nectar flow produces plenty of young bees for the winter and the honey stored from the heather is particularly rich in proteins from the pollen. I suspect that if Len was moving colonies from the coast up on to the moor for the heather, then those colonies would have benefitted from the move and been good for the following spring, regardless of their performance on the heather versus the high moorland resident colonies. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 00:04:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Bees Disappearing Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My team got together after covering Pennsylvania, Georgia, and Florida. Another member will be looking at hives in California tomorrow. So far, no simple answers, but it does seem to have connections, showing up in beekeepers who work together, seemingly spreading, at least within yards. We've traced this syndrome to Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, Connecticut, South Carolina, and the aforementioned states. The reported losses in Texas are not nearly as severe as we initially heard, and the bees appear to be recovering. Either the Texas incidents are something different or represent a much milder situation. The Texas beekeepers have agreed to let us know if this changes. We've heard rumors of losses in California, but at least some seem to be a result of the stresses of moving, with dead bees in boxes, on the ground. I'll know more next week when Larry Tarver gets back from California. I've just finished reading the discussion on Bee Source, but I can't respond to that group until they approve my registration. They discussed mapping the problem, confidentiality, and are talking about a making up their own reporting system. That's fine, but it may be a duplication of effort, and we hope that beekeepers won't get confused. Two weeks ago we launched a national survey of this problem. We developed and carried a detailed survey form to Florida, Pennsylvania, Georgia. We asked lots of experts to review our form and responded to their comments. After seeing the problem firsthand, we're revising our initial questionnaire - we anticipated issues that are no longer relevant, and we missed others that are critical. We will be at both the National Bee Meetings and will have copies of our revised survey available for distribution. We hope to get the survey form published in the bee journals, magazines, and we will be posting it on our web page, soon -- but first we have to finish a bunch of year end reports. Then, we will need your assistance. Its obvious that because there are so many factors, we will need lots of beekeepers to tell us what and where their problems are, and tell us about their management practices. And, we need to backtrack affected hives at least 3-6 months, maybe a year. We have a well-developed, multi-media, database system that is geo-referenced. For every location, we can tie in everything from reports to pictures and video. We've got analytical tools to process this information, which is one of the reasons we've joined this investigation. So, we're not just running a survey, we're building an information database that hopefully will help sort this all out. We are well aware of confidentiality issues in terms of any survey, mapping exercise. We are conducting this investigation via our small technology transfer business, rather than the university. As a private business, we have much more control over data, who gets it, and in what form; than we do under our University projects. It is not our purpose to point a finger of blame, single out beekeepers, 'turn in' beekeepers who use illegal materials. It is our purpose to try to isolate factors responsible for or contributing to the current problem. We need to run to ground the origin, current distribution, and possible spread of this syndrome. We're particularly interested in seeing if this is spreading to nearest neighbor yards, or if there's a common denominator such as sudden weather changes that may induce the disappearance of the bees, or use of some chemical or food material that is common to those suffering from this. We need to find the leading edge, so that we have a chance of catching colonies before and as they are failing. We need to move from autopsy to diagnosis. We hope you will participate in our national survey, and we hope that the national beekeeping associations will support our efforts. If nothing else, getting a handle on how widespread and severe this phenomenon is may help raise its visibility among beekeepers, the general public, and policy makers. Currently, its appears to be throughout many of the eastern states. Let's hope it doesn't jump to the west coast. Thanks Jerry J.J. Bromenshenk CEO, Bee Alert Technology, Inc. "Putting Technology to Work" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:50:05 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Migratory Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As we all know, Brother Adam tramped the world over to find bees to > "create" > a strain for his area. If any bees would have been acclimated, it would > have > been the ones he was trying to replace. They were! Now some of us are trying to undo the damage that the imports have caused. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 05:14:24 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Migratory Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/12/2006 00:08:52 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: Bottom line: once we stick our hands into to the mix, evolution is relegated to the back seat. I consider the African bee to be evolution's answer to the problem of honey bee survival ;) The fact that we may have interfered with nature doesn't mean that nature is destroyed. It just has a different set of bricks for Darwin to build an edifice. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 05:23:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Migratory Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/12/2006 00:09:08 GMT Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: The late > Professor Len Heath kept bees on the high moorland of Dartmoor (SW UK) and > also on > lower ground nearer the coast of Plymouth. He reported that bees moved > from > one location another didn't do as well as those that were already there. Presumably Len was moving colonies up on to the heather from the coast. As there is always some loss of adult bees resulting from a move, I would expect that those colonies would not do as well as those that had not been moved, Peter, My impression, which was I think gained at a lecture a long time ago, was that this was in the context of longer term moves, not the annual heather migration. But I may be wrong. I think Brian Gant lurks on this List and may be able to provide better information. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 06:55:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Migratory Beekeeping In-Reply-To: <00bf01c72a0c$094576f0$c2ff6a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An observation. The bees do not stay at the place where pollination is carried out but return to the same place where they started. It is a round trip. So they are still "acclimatized" to the place they spend most of their time. Plus, wouldn't a set routine- Florida-Maine -NJ etc- also "acclimatize" the bees to that sequence of floral nectar sources? But rethinking this, maybe it is the visits to New Jersey that is doing it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 07:02:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: News from George Imirie In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092109A65241@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is wonderful hearing from George. I am only sorry that many new beekeepers are not acquainted with him and his teaching. He has done many things for me in my beekeeping life. He has made me a better beekeeper but, by his example, has shown me how far I have to go. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:38:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Migratory Beekeeping In-Reply-To: <4593B0AD.8020000@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3B6F3685 > But rethinking this, maybe it is the visits to New Jersey that is doing it. Well, let's not bash New Jersey, the "Garden State," and Pollution Central, too hard. There can't be much worse that you can do to your bees than taking them to the blueberry barrens of Maine...the "Pine Tree" state. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.28/605 - Release Date: 12/27/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:39:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Testing for AFB in Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote:Dr. Steve Pernal, ... Steve found that the best sample to take for AFB spores in a colony is the nurse bees. Eric Mussen Mar./Apr. 2004 Query: 1. To test the samples taken, has anyone used the new that Dadant sells? If so, what are your impressions? 2. How many tests does one kit run, just one or can you get more than one test from one kit? Mike in LA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:06:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: bees disappearing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote: A little history is in order: Excerpts: Disappearing Disease by James E. Tew Characteristics of Disappearing Disease Adult bee loss with no accumulation at the hive entrance. Adult bee loss after a cool damp Spring - though losses have also been reported in the Summer and Autumn. Queens are the last hive individuals to be affected. Pollen and honey stores are strangely normal. A disproportionate brood/adult bee ratio. QUERY: Has anyone taken the stores, frames of pollen and honey and empty brood comb, and tried to start package bees or a shook swarm on those stores? Would the same thing happen to these bees that happened to the originating hive? Just wondering. Mike in LA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 11:45:10 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rossy Castillo Subject: mating place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi : I 'd like to know if is there any information or experiment made to know how could we find the mating places, distances, from the apiaries, the queen find it for the feromones I know, but how could we find the mating places. It would interesting for the queen breeders to know how to find it. Talking with some queen breeders from Brasil they seem very interested , it would be good for them , because perhaps they could choose those places where there are no many african drones and saturate with italian or other races of drones , you know they have that big problem but they are working hard. If any body knows something about it y would appreciate their answer. Here ,where I live ,in Chile , south america , we do not have the african problem, and we hope we will never have it due to the geographical isolation of our country. Thanks a lot beforehand. and happy new year to everybody. Rossy Castillo -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 10:07:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: bees disappearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike asks: Has anyone taken the stores, frames of pollen and honey and empty brood comb, and tried to start package bees or a shook swarm on those stores? Would the same thing happen to these bees that happened to the originating hive? Just wondering. Answer: Yes, that has been done. Some failed, others look like they are recovering, but its too soon to tell what will happen in the long term. Remember, many of these beekeepers had nothing left to shake from their hives. We saw losses approaching 100%. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:13:33 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Testing for AFB in Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To answer the queries 1 The test kit is made by Vita and is for testing for EUROPEAN Foul Brood, Vita also make one for testing for AMERICAN foul Brood. The test is done by using a sample of a bee larva (up to 3 larvae may be used) or scale from and infected cell. I have demonstrated the AFB kit at the beekeeping course at Gormanston ,Ireland. I have also used it in the field. The kit is accurate and fast to work, results being available within 3 minutes. 2 It works for only one test. Apart from Vita supplying me with the demonstration kits, I have no connection with that firm Ruary -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:48:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: bees disappearing In-Reply-To: <20061228000643.16168.qmail@web53405.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike Stoops You can take the hive setup EXACTLY as is and put in acclimitized feral caught bees if SC brood comb and they will do fine stores as is, but if LC brood combs they will repeat. Change out the LC brood combs to SC brood combs and even if LC storage combs they will do fine, though it is recommended to then continue changing out the food storage combs as they become empty also to SC combs FWIW as food stores differently in both sizes. Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:10:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Testing for AFB in Bees In-Reply-To: <175130.97653.qm@web53403.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not to deny Dadant any income but, what's wrong with the old field tests of visual identification and rope testing? Are beekeepers misidentifying AFB and destroying equipment needlessly? I've IDed hundreds, if not thousands, of AFB cases over the years and never used a "kit". Not bragging, just saying that knowledge and familiarity should serve you better. Mark Mike Stoops wrote: Query: 1. To test the samples taken, has anyone used the new that Dadant sells? If so, what are your impressions? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 12:22:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Coleene Davidson Subject: Re: Bees Disappearing Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I noticed Michigan was mentioned. I installed 4 packages this spring and noticed dwindling problems in 2 of the 3. The other 2 seemed ok. I requeened the 2 suspect hives but they dwindled away as did one of the other 2. The third went into the winter strong and heavy. I took nothing from it and have the honey from the other that did marginally with the possibility of a split in the spring. Coleene -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 13:43:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: AFB in Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here is a bit more information from Steve Pernal that Eric Mussen included in his newsletter. Notice that scorching is not as foolproof as some people believe. “ He first looked at possible ways to decontaminate woodenware from hives containing dead larvae, scale, and contaminated food stores. 1. Scorching and Virkon S ® were about 84% effective. 2. Powered water was 81% effective. 3. Scrubbing was 77% effective. 4. Steam and lye were nearly 100% effective, as is irradiation.” Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:01:24 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bees Disappearing Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Coleene Can you provide an address for the location where your bees failed? Also, dates, and who you get your queens from. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 21:07:14 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Migratory Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdale > Plus, wouldn't a set routine- Florida-Maine -NJ etc- also "acclimatize" > the bees to that sequence of floral nectar sources? Given that the individual bees live such a short time, how would they acclimatize? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:12:12 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Migratory Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/12/2006 13:15:53 GMT Standard Time, bhfarms@SUSCOM-MAINE.NET writes: So they are still "acclimatized" to the place they spend most of their time. Plus, wouldn't a set routine- Florida-Maine -NJ etc- also "acclimatize" the bees to that sequence of floral nectar sources? I think it is not the individual bees that acclimatise to a location but the colony as a whole measured over several generations of queen. This increases the chances of new queens being mated with local drones that are produced in appropriate numbers at appropriate times for the local environment; those being more successful there achieving better mating success. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:49:31 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: mating place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/12/2006 14:54:50 GMT Standard Time, rossybee@TERRA.CL writes: I 'd like to know if is there any information or experiment made to know how could we find the mating places, distances, from the apiaries, the queen find it for the feromones I know, but how could we find the mating places The best reference that I know is 'The Honeybees of the British Isles' by Beowulf Cooper. He describes the conditions he found in drone congregation areas. Minor local assemblies may be formed where there are 'bubbles' of warmer air. Major, distant, assemblies are formed by the interaction of wind and topography producing a vortex of twisting rising air. Cooper was concerned chiefly with Apis mellifera mellifera. I imagine your bees may predominantly be A m ligustica and it is possible that their habits may differ slightly. Chile being the shape it is there must be a very wide variation of local climates and in the cooler parts your bees may behave as Cooper describes. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 19:55:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Coleene Davidson Subject: Re: Bees Disappearing Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, I live in the Cadillac, Michigan area which is in the central lower Peninsula. The packages were late packages from Georgia-mid to late April-and I attributed the failure to poorly mated queens. Since the purchase was last minute and late I had to take what I could get. I am not certain as to where in Georgia the packages came from. I picked up the packages from a beekeeper in Indiana who had brought them from Georgia. The packages were all Italians which was all that was available, but I prefer Carniolians so I purchased Carnie queens from a beekeeper in Florida, a Mr. Miksa. They arrived on May 18 which was cold and rainy and our wonderful UPS delivery person left them outside in spite of the "Keep at Room Temperature" notations on the package. I guess that is better than having them bake in a mail box. I installed within 48 hours as I did not remove the old queens until the new queens arrived. They were accepted without issue but the hives still dwindled. One of the hives that I had expected to do well was full of brood at the end of July and had put up 2 mediums of honey which I had intended to leave. Hope this helps. Coleene -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---