From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:55:50 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.8 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS,URI_NOVOWEL,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D614838D for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFkpIT016612 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:16 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0701C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 59326 Lines: 1406 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:49:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: No Difference Between Honey and Intrasite Gel as Healing Agents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII No Difference Between Honey and Intrasite Gel as Healing Agents Study: 'Honey is a Safe, Satisfying and Effective Healing Agent' Reports from University of Limpopo Describe Recent Advances in Dermatology Drug Week, 1/19/2007 A prospective, randomised, double-blind controlled trial was carried out among goldmine workers. were healing times of shallow wounds and abrasions; side-effects; patient satisfaction with treatment; and amount of honey and IntraSite Gel used," researchers in South Africa report... SEE: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:51:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Are we in the same boat or just lucky so far? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have a lot of things in common with the European Beekeepers and it's not just honey. If you have time you can read this, it's in English and it says alot about the state of beekeeping now and for the future no matter where we are _http://www.kunstschwarm.de/thread.php?postid=1861#post1861_ (http://www.kunstschwarm.de/thread.php?postid=1861#post1861) Walter Ontario -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:58:52 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: www.beesurvey.com quick fix to login problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We've had reports from some people who could not login or got bumped out of the on-line beeloss survey. This appears to be related to the settings in your own browsers. We're working on a fix at our end, but in the meantime, if you have problems getting into the survey: The quick fix is to adjust the privacy setting to Low on the Privacy tab in the Internet Options. If that doesn't do it, let us know. Thanks Jerry J.J. Bromenshenk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 15:05:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Are we in the same boat or just lucky so far? In-Reply-To: <329.11189525.32dcef0f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Geee Walter, I just cannot pass this up: Is monitoring over there in Germany in EU, like the big BeeLoss Surveying now going on here? A jockying for position?................ Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never Miss an Email Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started! http://mobile.yahoo.com/services?promote=mail -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 19:23:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: Are we in the same boat or just lucky so far? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee and others If you read it carefully it's the Chemical boys vs the Beekeepers and it sounds like the Beekeepers are losing over there . Are we loosing also? Something is killing bees out there and we all have to do our part to try to understand how to overcome it. It's really mind boggling - all those variables. One use to say jokingly "ask a hundred beekeepers the same question and get a hundred or more different replies" Now that's no longer a joke! We all need to know the answer. That's why this site and others like the one in Europe is so important -we are able to share information. Walter Ontario -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 22:17:34 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Are we in the same boat or just lucky so far? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I may be wrong about over in europe, but I do know that here in the midwest, almost every beekeeper I know has reported that they had strong hives in oct/november, but that there was a pollen famine in fall. I also every hive going into winter was strong in population, but no pollen and no brood or just a patch leftover from when pollen ran out. For me and those here in the midwest it should be no mystery why colony loss might be high this winter. No brood going into winter, and no chance for bees to brood winter without any pollen. I don't think this has anything to do with organic or otherwise style of beekeeping. It's a pollen famine for us in the midwest. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA "If the girls don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 19:51:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Are we in the same boat or just lucky so far? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Walter, Yes it does seem like the chemical boys vs the beekeepers. Problem is defining who is with the chemical boys and/or under their control, and then how to undo it, while physically changing the direction things seem headed. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:14:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: Fall Dwindle Disease In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Could it be that some of the losses reported around the world are due to >limited genetic variability? Honey bees have certainly lost a lot over >the last few decades since the advent of Varroa. It might be time to >examine this in some detail, and that is partly the reason for The Global >Bee Breeders >Initiative , which is in >the planning stages for the upcoming Apimondia in Melbourne, Australia. Malcolm T. Sanford Professor Emeritus, University of Florida http://beeactor.vze.com 352-336-9744 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 08:24:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Sign Boards +Feeding bees by plastic Jugs + thanks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the informative replies, microwaving at low doses doesnt kill AFB-end of story.. As for the effectiveness of stmulative feeding..my search of the archives didnt produce anything of a decisive nature- In my opinion anyhow. One other thing... I have begun to wrap on gallon plastic jugs with about 5 revolutions of electric fence wire, then wrapping this with duct tape. Stiffens so that they dont collapse while feeding(inverted on top of hive.) Works with some other one gallon containers also-oyster containers etc. Maybe this will be of use to somebody else (You know the Good Lord in his infinite wisdom alllowed several years after the civil war to pass before duct tape was invented-he knew once he gave us good ol boys a roll o wire and some duct tape there would be no limits to what we would do:) John Horton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:23:53 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: Are we in the same boat or just lucky so far? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee: I'm glad to see you read the article carefully. before I sent the website to Bee-l I sent it to some researchers who are really doing some fine work up here Quote in a reply:"Thank you for the article. I think it is ideal that we work for the beekeepers and not the chemical companies!" That's what Europe is facing if one reads the article carefully. It's like in medicine where studies done by doctors are funded by the drug companies. Same sort of skewing. I feel confident that if sufficient information is supplied as with Scot's reply then those who know how to use it in a model for example will come up with some sort of fix be it short or long term. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 19:05:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Are we in the same boat or just lucky so far? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Walter: Concerning Scot's reply about shortage of pollen. This was written about by many concerning shortage of pollen and also honey on the organicbeekeepers discussion list. So let me bring out a few things to think about here! It is known that varroa and trachael mites chewing upon bees reduces life span of the bee, to the point with each added individual mite chewing upon them, you can shorten the life of the bee to only a few days from emergence if they emerge at all. This then impedes nursebee duties for even doing brood at all, not to mention foraging. On top of this shortening of life by action of mites, as I remember, even Jaycox talked and wrote a whole lot about artificial pollen substitutes reducing the life expentency of honeybees also. So add this to the pot, along with artificial syrups which certainly IMPOV don't contribute either. Then with life shortened by both mites and artificial pollens fed, add acids that burn holes in bodies and allow for vectoring in disease, besides IMPOV killing brood, and in weak hives that cannot clean up after the acid treatments, the delaying of next round of brooding, if at all............and if taught to be done during broodless periods (application of acids), then for weak hives already threatened with shorted lives of bees, you have a turnover delay added, not to mention breach of two key turnover periods, namely the turn from shortlived to longlived and vice versa, and those are key turns that make or break, spring and fall. Then think about this, with pollen and it has been researched I believe though cannot remember who, there is fall and spring pollen of darker colors, and then the lighter pollens of mainflow summertime. One is with long-lived honeybees and one is with short-lived honeybees, and coincides with honey eaten/taken at those times. In feeding in the artificial substitutes, how does one even know the diet helps with this cycle or could in fact negate it? Just something to think about! Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:23:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bman140 Subject: Re: sign board for tops In-Reply-To: <004201c73589$7a0fdc80$8380a9d1@keating> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter wrote: regarding using good quality plywood for tops, we have been using recycled plastic for tops for some years now without noticing any negative attributes. It comes in 4 x 8 sheets in various thicknesses, cuts like ply... Where might one find these sheets of recycled plastic? Who sells it? Ed --------------------------------- Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:00:09 -0800 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Are we in the same boat or just lucky so far? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You make some good points, Dee, but I wonder if you are carrying some of them too far. > It is known that varroa and trachael mites chewing upon > bees reduces life span of the bee, to the point with each > added individual mite chewing upon them, you can shorten > the life of the bee to only a few days from emergence if they > emerge at all. This then impedes nursebee duties for even > doing brood at all, not to mention foraging. This is, sadly, very true. > On top of this shortening of life by action of mites, as I > remember, even Jaycox talked and wrote a whole lot about > artificial pollen substitutes reducing the life expentency > of honeybees also. I don't think that this was a shortening of life. It was, rather that bees raised only on substitutes might not be expected to live as long as bees raised on a good pollen. Sometimes, when there is no pollen, there is a tough choice: Raise bees with reduced lifepans, or raise no bees at all. > So add this to the pot, along with artificial syrups which certainly IMPOV > don't contribute either. Study after study have shown that some syrups are supperior to some honies. Again, sometimes there are tough choices to make: Spend money and buy a good syrup or leave a poor honey on the hive and hope the bees can survive on it. > ...add acids that burn holes in bodies and allow for vectoring in disease, Again, careful studies have not shown how damage--if any--occurs to the bees, assuming that the acids are applied according to recommendation. > besides IMPOV killing brood, and in weak hives that cannot clean up after > the acid treatments, the delaying of next round of brooding, if at > all. This is where damage can occur, especially if beekeepers are not careful and observant. > ..........and if taught to be done during broodless periods (application > of acids), then for weak hives already threatened with shorted lives of > bees Timing is a problem. > you have a turnover delay added, not to mention breach of two key turnover > periods, namely the turn from shortlived to longlived and vice versa, and > those are key turns that make or break, spring and fall. Maybe you have some information that others do not have that makes this meaningful, but I can't see what you are seeing. Granted, there are transitions that take place between the pesence in the hives of 'summer bees' and 'winter bees', however AFAIK, the transition is not magical, but simply (is anything about bees simple?) related to the foraging conditions, temerature, and daylength, and the resulting changes in resources used in rearing the young, and the demands placed on them. > Then think about this, with pollen and it has been researched I believe > though cannot remember who, there is fall and spring pollen of darker > colors, and then the lighter pollens of mainflow summertime. One is with > long-lived honeybees and one is with short-lived honeybees, and coincides > with honey eaten/taken at those times. In feeding in the artificial > substitutes, how does one even know the diet helps with this cycle or > could in fact negate it? Without a citation, it is very hard to say, since to most of us, colour is not a major nutritional feature in pollen. There is some evidence, howebver, that the pollens do change nutritional characteristics with season in each region. Whether this has some magical importance, however has yet to be proven. > Just something to think about! Absolutely. Questioning is good. As the Bard said, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy" allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 22:03:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: recycled plastic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been buying the sheets in our local Ag CoOp. This is in a small town in Lac St.Jean, Quebec. If it's available here then it must be available almost everywhere on the planet. I think some products are made by Cascade. Peter > Where might one find these sheets of recycled plastic? > Who sells it? > > Ed -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 11:14:24 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good Morning Yesterday, a group of us formalized a working group and named the current bee loss syndrome being seen in the U.S. As of this time, I have reports that major losses have been seen in the U.S., starting in the spring in places like Michigan, Wisconsin, and Iowa. Its still ongoing in Florida, with major losses occurring in Oklahoma, and a number of reports from California over the last few days. We are no longer calling this Fall Dwindle Disease -- its not a fall phenomenon when looked at across the nation, its a rapid collapse (often in less than 2-3 weeks), and it may or may not be a disease in the strictest sense. So, we're terming it Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD). We, a group of researchers, extension agents, and regulatory officials have formed a group to investigate this problem and will call ourselves the CCD Working Group. This group represents a diverse number of institutions including Bee Alert Technology, Inc. (a bee technology transfer company affiliated with the University of Montana), The Pennsylvania State University, the USDA/ARS, the Florida Department of Agriculture, and the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture. We're planning on adding Eric Mussen to the group to represent California. CCD Symptoms Based on initial visits to affected beeyards, the CCD drew up a list of the following symptoms, typical of the disorder: 1) In collapsed coloniea, a. The complete absence of adult bees in colonies, with no or little build up of dead bees in the colonies or in front of those colonies. b. The presence of capped brood in colonies, c. The presence of food stores, both honey and bee bread i. which is not robbed by other bees, and ii. when attacked by hive pests such as wax moth and small hive beetle, the attack is noticeably delayed (days, weeks) 2) In cases where the colony appear to be actively collapsing a. An insufficient workforce to maintain the brood that is present b. The workforce seems to be made up of young adult bees c. The queen is present d. The cluster is reluctant to consume provided feed, such as sugar syrup and protein supplement Initial results from the online survey (_www.beesurvey.com_ (http://www.beesurvey.com) ) has revealed that beekeepers think that this started at least 1-2 years ago, in its present form. As this list has mentioned, similar syndromes have been reported in the U.S., dating back to 1896. It certainly looks identical to the disorder reported by Oertel in 1965 (from bee losses in 63-64). Finally, if you've experienced this, please fill out the survey - regardless of how convinced you are that you know what caused it in your bees. Too many factors, too few returns to sort this out without the help of the nation's beekeepers. Thanks Jerry P.S. We'd like to hear from beekeepers who HAVE not ever had this problem -- where are your bees, what are you doing different? So, again, fill out the survey, just be sure we know that your bees haven't had the disorder. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:10:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: National Apitherapy Conference to Be Held in North Carolina MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - 1/20/07 National Apitherapy Conference to Be Held in North Carolina American Apitherapy Society Selects Raleigh/Durham for April 26-29 Conference SHERMAN OAKS, CA: The American Apitherapy Society (AAS) has named the Raleigh/Durham area of North Carolina as the location of its April 26-29 Charles Mraz Apitherapy Course & International Conference (CMACC). Now in its 12th year, the annual apitherapy training course focuses on the therapeutic use of products of the beehive, including honey, pollen, propolis, royal jelly and bee venom. One of the most ancient of all healing modalities, apitherapy is gaining increased attention worldwide from medical professionals, academic researchers and lay practitioners as the efficacy of the hive products and treatments becomes better known. Charles Mraz Apitherapy Course & International Conference Dates: April 26 – 29, 2007 Course: An in-depth course running from Thursday night through Saturday morning will provide a comprehensive training by AAS faculty in the use of beehive products and bee venom therapy; includes extensive course manual. Those who pass a final exam will receive a Certificate of Knowledge. Conference: Recent advances in apitherapy worldwide will be presented from Saturday afternoon through Sunday afternoon. Venue: Radisson Hotel Research Triangle Park, 150 Park Drive, Raleigh/Durham, North Carolina. Call 1-800-333-3333 for reservations worldwide and mention the American Apitherapy Society’s CMACC for a discounted rate; complimentary airport shuttle available. Fees: Course and Conference: $225 by March 26, Late Fee: $275; Students with Valid ID: $175 Fees include a one-year, $45 AAS membership. Visit www.apitherapy.org for updated conference details as they become available. The AAS is a nonprofit membership organization established for the purpose of advancing apitherapy. The organization makes no claims about the safety or efficacy of specific honeybee products and does not endorse any specific type of apitherapy. The CMACC has been named in memory of Charles Mraz, an American pioneer in the use of bee venom to treat diseases. # End # Media Contact: Frederique Keller, Vice President, American Apitherapy Society Phone: (631) 351-3521; E-Mail: Kellerf@optonline.net Conference Info & Registration Contact: The American Apitherapy Society 4835 Van Nuys Blvd. Suite 100, Sherman Oaks, CA 91403 Phone: (818) 501-0446; FAX: (818) 995-9334; info@apitherapy.org ----- For the Internet's best source of information about the medicinal use of bee products, go to Apitherapy News at: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:24:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: fungus/mold/yeast with Winter Humidity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I know that in winter months when excessive moisture building up has to be vented out of hives and isn't it can create fungus/mold/yeast problems that the bees have to clean up later, and normally do on frames of foraged pollen/honey stores,....but? Does artificial pollen substitute do this also? Same way? Wouldn't expect same molds/yeast etc or should one? Just thinking.... Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 18:29:12 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: fungus/mold/yeast with Winter Humidity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis is looking at a soil fungus -- and I might buy that if this collapse was in a specific climatic zone, time of year. The grasshoppers I worked with years ago had a high attrition rate of nymphs when molting occurred in wet weather. But again, we've got all regions, all times of year, different soil types, etc. And, as you say, frames tend to get covered with fungus/mold in spring. So fungi in gut may/may not mean anything. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 18:48:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: fungus/mold/yeast with Winter Humidity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee makes good points about winter and fungus, mold, yeast. And I've seen some mighty nasty looking pollen sub, if it sits in the colony without being consumed. So, a fungus, whether in soil, in hive, could be involved, and I understand why its critical that we consider it. As I said, some of the Penn State folks are investigating that scenario. Others are looking at viruses, and still others at imidacloprid with respect to the bee losses -- and I'd have to agree that each or all are candidates. We're looking at HMF and some other things. Problem is, every factor that might be involved is nullified in some instances -- although we may be looking at a common syndrome with multiple causes. Dee did cause me to remember that we (UM), some years ago, did some work with Bassiana, a microbial pesticide. It didn't affect bees in strong colonies, but it was sensitive to elevated temperatures. It did affect adult honey bees in cages as well as bumble bees, but not adult honey bees in strong colonies. We thought it might be because the honey bee colony keeps the temperature too high for the fungus to survive. We did note that once we had inoculated hives with this fungus, we could still recover it some years later -- so it was persistent. It would be ideal if one of the many factors, like a fungus is common to all of the bee losses. I'm afraid I'm a skeptic with respect to many of the obvious variables, like toxic honey dew, new chemicals, chemicals inside hives, since I've already looked at too many cases -- we've now documented the bee losses in 16 states. My prejudice, all of the chemicals being thrown into hives has to have an adverse effect -- but an organic guy in one of northern states doesn't use lots of chemicals, yet experienced the same syndrome this fall. As we get samples from different regions, and as people fill out surveys, we hope to narrow down the field, with the Penn State and USDA ARS taking the lead with respect to possible biological agents and/or new generation pesticides. We're focusing on the bigger picture, trying to get out and sample over a broad scale, share samples with the rest of the group, overlay maps of affected locations with climate data, etc. (trying to find out whether a weather event may trigger, such as just the right conditions for a toxic fungus to take off. We're also trying some new approaches for identifying sick/weak colonies. So far, the CCD team has been freely sharing samples and results -- and we all plan on next going to California, since we getting reports from there, and USDA has a longer term study ongoing in California. If you've bees in California and are seeing this collapse, please let us know. We may want to visit you. Thank Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 02:46:18 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: fungus/mold/yeast with Winter Humidity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...i wonder. i've been reading about fungus problems with frogs (and other amphibians) that seems to be very widely spread. i don't buy at face value the contention that this is a "proof of global warming", but there may be some long term fungus cycles, or other factors as well. deknow -- Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: Dennis is looking at a soil fungus -- and I might buy that if this collapse was in a specific climatic zone, time of year. The grasshoppers I worked with years ago had a high attrition rate of nymphs when molting occurred in wet weather. But again, we've got all regions, all times of year, different soil types, etc. And, as you say, frames tend to get covered with fungus/mold in spring. So fungi in gut may/may not mean anything. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info -- - -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 19:50:54 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: fungus/mold/yeast with Winter Humidity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Dee makes good points about winter and fungus, mold, yeast. And I've > seen some mighty nasty looking pollen sub, if it sits in the colony > without being consumed. True. We've seen this in particular with Feedbee, at least while it was in the development stages. Maybe it is better now. Don't know. Other substitutes, like BeePro and standard soy/yeast formulae don't seem to mould much, if sufficient sugar is used and the water is not overdone--in my experience, anyhow. That considered, we don't know how various moulds affect bees, moreover, there are zillions of types of moulds and fungi. I would assume that some are beneficial and some toxic, just as with humans. After all, there are a number that are normally found in hives, and some are suggested to be used in the fermentation of bee bread. > Problem is, every factor that might be involved is nullified in some > instances -- although we may be looking at a common syndrome with > multiple causes. My guess--you heard it here first--is that we are seeing multiple phenomena, with multiple causes but similar effects, that happen to occur at the same time and are thus mistaken to be related (due to the associative nature of human thought processes) by more than coincidence. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 23:18:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Sad and Bad Bees - The Old Drones Musings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Guys, Unless your out in the Almonds, it's still a slow time for northern beekeepers. And that's a good time to do a little reading. The old drone's words are available at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/andy/index.htm And they are a good refreshing read. So, take a little time and enjoy Andy's style, wit and insight. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 20:39:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: fungus/mold/yeast with Winter Humidity In-Reply-To: <001501c73d06$f93840e0$4b00a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Okay Allen and Jerry, If as deknow says frogs and other water associated animals and insects (added insects) are in an exchanging contact, by drinking at same watering sites concerning fungi, etc, that then on bodies of bees for example from same, are carried back to hives and fungi, mold,and yeast growth get going in, and this is being seen all over, then bees in USA have same access, would this not be assumed? Okay then with also seeing badly looking pollen sub as Jerry said, and Allen saying: " Other substitutes, like BeePro and standard soy/yeast formulae don't seem to mould much, if sufficient sugar is used and the water is not overdone " Yet, Jaycox back in late 1970s/early 1980s used to teach at meetings that soy flour and other substitutes were only good for one bee generation I think and then on (with each cycle of brood) the next generations have problems, that get worse with each generation of bees produced, that included problems in feeding of the mixtures fed and also greatly shortened the lives of the bees. Would not this then when compounded with varroa chewing and sucking blood that shortens live cycle of bees make for increasing hive crashes as fall feeding starts and winter months progress, until the hives cannot turn brood at all, with old force dying off until no bees left (which depending upon the temperatures could be fast or slower, etc also with moisture? Also for Jaycox to teach this and talk about it, knowing who he worked for, what with Calif and Logan, wouldn't this information be on file yet for pulling up to look at for info to add to what is being considered by you all Jerry? Just thinking more since you two guys talking........ Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 01:44:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Croteau Subject: Re: fungus/mold/yeast with Winter Humidity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have fiber-board on top of inner cover to absorb moisture ( has a groove for top exit) .But even with the exit, I replace the fiber-board once a month because it is quite wet. Dave, Skowhegan, ME -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 23:45:04 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: fungus/mold/yeast with Winter Humidity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If as deknow says frogs and other water associated animals > and insects (added insects) are in an exchanging contact, > by drinking at same watering sites concerning fungi, etc, > that then on bodies of bees for example from same, are > carried back to hives and fungi, mold,and yeast growth get > going in, and this is being seen all over, then bees in USA > have same access, would this not be assumed? It is not unreasonable to assume that various microorganisms are shared around by numerous mechanisms, including sharing watering places. It is also not unreasonable to assume that trucking bees around will speed the process, and also possibly jump what would have been natural barriers to transmission of new parasites and/or toxic microorganisms, including possibly ones introduced from exotic locations by other mechanisms yet. > Jaycox back in late 1970s/early 1980s used to teach at meetings that soy > flour and other substitutes were only good for one bee generation I think > and then on (with each cycle of brood) the next generations have problems, > that get worse with each generation of bees produced, that included > problems in feeding of the mixtures fed and also greatly shortened the > lives of the bees. Well, I think we all agree, more or less, with this today, with the exception of several recent and unproven entrants into the market who hype their product as pollen substitutes or *replacements*, not just supplements. Justin Scmidt was saying last year in a meeting in Alberta that his recent work demonstrated that nothing has changed and that there is no *substitute* for real pollen that he has been able to find or create as of that date, but things can change. We'll see. Again, though, I have to make a distinction _and it is important_, The studies you cite were caged bee studies or studies with bees that had *no significant natural pollen* for one or more generations, AFAIK. The method was to supply bees which had NO natural pollen with claimed or intended *substitutes*. In each case, to varying extents, 1.) the bees raised brood they would not have raised otherwise and 2.) the brood of these and any succeeding generations declined in viability and vigour, and lifespan of these artificially raised bees were shorter than those of bees fed a pollen diet. This is very different than where free-flying bees on reasonably good forage are provided with a known-good supplement, in season, for a limiterd period, and according to best practices. In all these studies, I know about, including recent ones by Medhat, in Alberta, the hives provided with standard supplement (BeePro, or soy/yeast plus sugar) _in addition to what natural pollen they could find__did very significantly better in several important metrics than bees not so supplemented. These bees were followed for several generations, and honey production measured as well. There were no detectible adverse effects. There is absolutely no doubt: 1.) standard supplements can and do augment bee health and production without demonstrated adverse effects when used correctly, and 2.) no substitute has been proven long-term in the field to work--(yet)! > Would not this then when compounded with varroa chewing (etc....) In short, No. The assumptions underlying this premise are false. The idea that the cause of recent troubles are that new micro-organisms being passed around by various mechanisms--including common watering sources--has merit, though, is and an idea that is under consideration, BUT this idea is pure conjecture until one can be detected and isolated. There is so much we do not and cannot know. The last time we had this sort of thing (yes something like it happens regularly), I suggested that the oil companies could, one day, change an ingredient in gasoline, and it could conceivably have subtle effects throughout the entire country. Who knows what is really going on out there? I suspect it is something simpler, but... allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 00:35:01 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Sad and Bad Bees - The Old Drones Musings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The old drone's words are available at: > http://www.beesource.com/pov/andy/index.htm > And they are a good refreshing read. So, take a little time and enjoy > Andy's style, wit and insight. Also it helps us to realise that these problems are not new. Maybe each time it is a bit different, but there seems to be a commonality. And, FWIW, Andy posted the text of his talk to BEE-L on Thu, 1 Feb 1996 at 05:12:00 GMT, prefacing his text with, "Don't know if you have read this, but if not you may find it of "interest. From my own experience with bees and given as at my last talk "with at the American Beekeeping Federation at Las Vegas Jan. 1989 I think. "As for "PMS" thats pure USDA government regulatory bee science... And in "my opinion a real example of "BS" and not Bee Science. The entire original post was made available for easy reference at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/sadandbad.htm at the time and still remains there. There was more to the discussion, so going back in the archives might be interesting for some. Start at http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9602A&L=BEE-L&P=R2&I=-3&X=7BC8C2517E4E28D4AE allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 07:31:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: fungus/mold/yeast with Winter Humidity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to all, I've been reading this with great interest. I start feeding pollen sub (brewers yeast, 15% bee pollen and 77% solids sugar syrup) in first of sept, ALL the way till Jan 1. Right now they avg 20-25 frames, six to eight frames of brood. I put on about four rounds of 6 pound patties. I have done this for years.All this talk about disappearing bees is due to mainly to nutrition. Some still don't know how to put on pollen patties. I think lately, there has been allot of " blame game" going on about there bees. You mention Jaycox's, funny thing , him and my dad were roommates at U.C. Davis. Look at the A.B.J article pg 843, this is me feeding bees in late Aug because of nutrition problems. I pull loads out of the safflower to start feeding pollen, not a normal possess. Just my two cents worth. Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 09:05:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Casting Foundation Release Agent In-Reply-To: <799319.36185.qm@web31601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Grant Gillard wrote: Good luck! I built a beewax foundation casting box and could not prevent the cooled wax from sticking to either and/or both plates. I finally gave up and ..... Grant, Might try cleaning the mold really good and then spraying with Teflon ® paint. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:44:48 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Are Supplements Good for Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I start feeding pollen sub (brewers yeast, 15% bee pollen and 77% solids > sugar syrup) in first of sept, ALL the way till Jan 1. > Right now they avg 20-25 frames, six to eight frames of brood. I put on > about four rounds of 6 pound patties. I have done this for years. Just for the record, and for those who lack your years of experience, where exactly are you located, and when do you start feeding? How much, and how often? When do you stop? Why? Also, how much natural pollen is in the comb when you start, and available to foragers? Do you see natural pollen coming in? Steadily, or sporadically? Is any stored in the combs or is it consumed as it comes in? I recall Andy showing pictures of boomer colonies built up in fall by feeding yeast. In fact I had a picture on my site that he provided. Maybe it is still, there. We covered all this several times previously, and I summarised what we found on honeybeeworld.com at those times. (I went looking for the picture, and, although I got distracted before I found it, here are some things that might be useful: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/pollenpatties.htm ) Also, there is a lot more of interest at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/menus/topics.htm . Some is outdated, but most is still applicable. > All this talk about disappearing bees is due to mainly to nutrition. I find it hard to believe that *all* the lossses, including losses suffered by very well informed and successful long-term beekeepers, can be attributed only to nutrition, but who knows? We all agree that well-nourished bees can withstand stresses that weaker bees cannot. Some of us differ on what constitutes good nourishment. Nonetheless, it seems to me that even well-nourished bees can fall victim to disease. Our hope is that well-fed bees will be damaged less and recover sooner. > Some still don't know how to put on pollen patties. This is very (unbelievably!) true. No matter how extension people repeat the rules for supplementation, many beekeepers insist on ignoring them, then don't check carefully to see the effects of their 'custom' method. What a waste of time, material and bees. Fortunately, many more do follow the rules and also monitor their hives to make sure the supply is constant and being consumed properly. > Just my two cents worth. I value your contribution much higher than that. :) allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 15:42:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: California Freezin' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We've been hearing a lot about freezing temperatures and loss of citrus = crops in California. Is the any news on possible impact on almonds? =20 Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 13:06:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: California Freezin' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, The cold weather has not hurt the almonds, it has help put them into dormant stage which they need. They will however be about ten days or so behind last years bloom time. Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 15:49:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: Are Supplements Good for Bees? Comments: To: allen dick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, Glad you like those pics from today, maybe somehow we could share them here, but I'm not a computer wiz. > Just for the record, and for those who lack your years of experience, > where exactly are you located, and when do you start feeding? How much, > and how often? When do you stop? Why? Located in north central Calif. I start pollen feeding in Sept----Jan I put on 6-7 pound patties, as it gets cooler they drop in size to 3--4 pound patties. I stop in the first part of Jan, because I start working them (bees) around the 20th of the month and don't have time to work around the patties (mess). > Also, how much natural pollen is in the comb when you start, and available > to foragers? Do you see natural pollen coming in? Steadily, or > sporadically? Is any stored in the combs or is it consumed as it comes > in? There is pollen stored in the comb at all times , there is very little coming in. > I find it hard to believe that *all* the losses, including losses suffered > by very well informed and successful long-term beekeepers, can be > attributed only to nutrition, but who knows? I know successful second-third-and fourth generation keepers that cant keep varroa under control. I am amazed how slow keepers are responding to these changes. The 80's & 90's ways of doing bee business are long gone. I was out today making splits, if I only make up 300-400 @ eight frame avg for almond pollination, well , you guys can do the math. Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:27:37 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Are Supplements Good for Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Glad you like those pics from today, maybe somehow we could share them > here, but I'm not a computer wiz. Yes. These are similar to the ones Andy sent, showing the results of feeding supplement, but he had frames full of brood pulled out and leaned up against. I may still have the pictures on my site. Just haven't had time to look. For others who care to look, the ones you just sent me are now at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/images/2007/kj1.jpg and http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/images/2007/kj2.jpg > I put on 6-7 pound patties, as it gets cooler they drop in size to 3--4 > pound patties. That's really feeding! No fooling around. > There is pollen stored in the comb at all times , there is very little > coming in. And your patties contain pollen, you said, so there is always some available to augment with the supplements. > I know successful second-third-and fourth generation keepers that cant > keep varroa under control. I am amazed how slow keepers are responding to > these changes. The 80's & 90's ways of doing bee business are long gone. Yes. > I was out today making splits, if I only make up 300-400 @ eight frame avg > for almond pollination, well , you guys can do the math. How many are you making them from? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 18:59:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Are Supplements Good for Bees? In-Reply-To: <006b01c73db6$de456320$a4a7ff04@wendyf10934cd0> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Jarrett writes: I know successful second-third-and fourth generation keepers that cant keep varroa under control. I am amazed how slow keepers are responding to these changes. Reply: Now this changes the subject matter to another, and keeping the varroa under control is not hard if one is willing to change the combs to do it, away from the upsizing of the past 100 years. It would also help with contamination problems, and problems of not accepted feeds as talked about on the list here. But everything takes time and doing, and willingness to make necessary changes. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---