From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:53:36 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.2 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 859CD4850F for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFkpIV016612 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:16 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0701E" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 105149 Lines: 2523 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:46:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: How much do we need to know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >> To me, knowledge is always better than ignorance... > >But, does it make ignorance necessarily *bad*? How much do we need to know? Allen, isn't this the "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology"? Aren't we all proceeding under the assumption that it is better to be informed than not? And that most certainly does not mean just *more* information, but *better* information. What I seek and what I try to pass on is information of the highest quality. > I was trying to say that if the local bees are so persistent that they need to be hunted down and eradicated, that there must be some redeeming quality there I would liken the situation to feral dogs and cats. I can't think of any redeeming qualities there. They are just a source of rabies and babies. > And, I can't believe all those skep keepers were as ignorant as suggested. Some were, and some beekeepers remain ignorant today, but there were very smart and observant people as long as we had recorded history, and before, I would assume. And they thought the big bee was the King. -- pb ( Aristotle was the first to seriously study and record the behavior of bees, although many of his theories seem laughable today. He concluded that bee larvae came from olive blossoms; he believed the honey was gathered directly from the flowers; and he strongly asserted that bee colonies had to be presided over by a male, not a female. He couldn't accept that a female creature would be armed with a stinger. ) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 17:11:51 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Downsizing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Width of Endbars? 35mm which is about 1.375 inches > Spacing of Endbars? endbars are touching each other so no extra space between the combs. > and again, just > putting in foundation, and/or drawnout comb from previous > year? First year, 2004, it was foundation. Nucs died out over winter so saved the comb and used the drawn combs next year, 2005. Nucs died out again over next winter so used drawn combs (saved) in 2006. This season so far they progressed from the 4 frame nuc to the 8 frame box. They are both drawing comb but not on the foundation. As stated previously, one I let go across of its own accord. The other I split the brood combs and added the foundation between these. Both are drawing off the comb. So far both are on 6 combs with 2 still to draw out. > Foundation is straight also? Look straight to me. It is plastic waxed foundation that came from Dadant. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 21:16:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Downsizing In-Reply-To: <20070129025903.47332.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here's and old url for downsizing in someone elses words http://www.beesource.com/eob/4dot9/index.htm Dee- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:45:39 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...continuing bans against non-movable comb hives were and are steering beekeeping development on a different course than it otherwise would have taken, and, overnight, made beekeeping a much more expensive (industrial) pursuit. Although movable frames are great for close colony inspection, and thus were mandated as the only legal type justified by the need for official inspections for bee diseases, I wonder if diseasse control is not worse today... I have yet to see a feral colony with a case of American foulbrood or chalkbrood. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:55:00 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Downsizing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Here's and old url for downsizing in someone elses words > > http://www.beesource.com/eob/4dot9/index.htm This appears to be a success story, but a success in getting bees to draw 5.2 mm cells, not 4.9mm. Pretty well all the natural comb I find in the wild where I live averages around 5.2mm. Also, the article states, "Seeing that our country was founded upon and originally used 4.83mm cell sizing...". Really? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:49:32 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hopefully Aaron will not censor my email... :) >>Think about medicine, for example. Before antibiotics and vaccinations people died from minor infections. A lot of historians and doctors argue lethal infections subsided after sanitation and nutrition improved in overcrowded cities 20-30 years before mandatory vaccinations. >>Sure, modern medicine makes people less resistant to disease... ...and cancer. The immune system is also responsible for detecting and containing cancer cells. >>Yeah, well, I disagree on this. I think the idea that the "bees in the woods" are somehow better adapted, is nonsense. They are just escaped swarms anyway so they are no different than any old neglected bees. One would have to offer evidence to support either argument. Tom Seeley has seen bees survive on their own in the woods in upstate NY. Have you collected any marked queens in the woods? I've been collecting swarms and feral colonies for several years. I get the queen 4 out of 5 times. I have yet to see a marked queen. I know supercedure, beekeepers not marking queens etc. but it's an indicator. Most of my collections come from areas without known beekeepers. >>If somebody wants more vigorous stock, they can simply let the weak ones perish. Right. Nature does it on its own as well. >>A further disincentive to using wild hives is that these are a source of African genes. Perhaps in the southern states but not up north. There is a growing drive to raise northern queens for northern beekeepers. Not just to keep Africanized genes out but also to have more productive, mite resistant stock. None of the local beekeepers who have used stock from the south or California have been very happy with the inconsistent performance. >>no good will ever come from going back to the days when beekeeping was basically just catching swarms and robbing them, with no idea what was going on inside of the hive. I agree. One needs to do selective breeding on their own. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:15:47 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Is Foundation Good For Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> We have been over this and over this. There has been *no* universal >>> upsizing of bees in the Americas. >> Perhaps I missed the announcement of some sort of compelling proof in >> support of Allen's statement, if so, I'd love to hear about it. > The key words are, "universal", "of bees", and "Americas" (plural). > If you understand these words, and can parse what I said, little > proof should be requiired. Perhaps you should rephrase your statement. As it is, you merely repeated yourself. My understanding of factors not open to dispute is: a) Bees working without foundation will tend to draw comb no smaller or larger than the comb in the hive from which they came. b) If provided with a series of increasingly/decreasingly SLIGHTLY larger or smaller foundation, they can be coaxed to "downsize" to cell sizes as small as 4.7 - 4.9 mm (Lusby), or "upsized" to as large as 5.74 mm (Baudoux) c) Even early makers of foundation worked to make foundation that was of a specific size. AI Root's early foundation was 5 cells to an inch Later versions were 4.83 cells per inch, just to put some points on the graph. (From the ABC&XYZ of beekeeping [1945] pg 125-126) d) The current size of the foundation you use is larger than what was being sold back when Root standardized on 4.83 cells to the inch. If you want to posit some sort of mechanism by which bees left to their own devices would draw comb smaller or larger than the size "appropriate" for the bees building the comb, thus tending to perpetuate the size of any one hive and its "offspring" to a consistent size, you're going to have to explain it very slowly and carefully, as I don't know of any factor other than the size of the cell that would influence the size of the bee. It would have to be beekeepers and foundation makers that "made changes". > On the other hand a proof of universal and enduring upsizing of bees, > even > in the U.S. alone, is not at hand--AFAIK, and I have been looking. Well, there is the large collection of antique foundation mills I mentioned at the Ohio State Wooster, OH facility. That might be one place to look, which is why I suggested it. These mills were part of a highly centralized infrastructure, made more "centralized" by the practice of copying designs rather that redesigning mills from the ground up. Another place to look would be in the literature. Dee Lusby assembled a collection of interesting documents on the subject here: http://www.beesource.com/POV/lusby/celldata.htm > We all know that much commercial foundation is larger than some of the > cells > some bees would build if left to their devices. > What we don't know is that these efforts have had much--or any--effect. The effect of foundation size on bee size appears to be generally agreed to be significant, in that one can (if one wants) "upsize" and "downsize" bees at whim, as Baudoux reported in 1933 http://www.beesource.com/POV/lusby/bwapr1933.htm , and others have reported both on this listserv and elsewhere. It is reasonable to say (from Baudoux's work) that foundation is the only variable that one needs to tweak to vary bee size. > Going furrther, there are many feral and primitive hives throughout > the > Americas, including areas adjacent to the U.S. southern border.. The bees > now moving in and established in many Southern US areas have migrated up to > these areas, and they have been feral for portions of the trip. See (a) above. Given that bees use their own bodies as measuring instruments, why would you expect one specific swarm of bees to abruptly build comb significantly smaller or larger than the comb in which they incubated? Those who have attempted to "downsize" bees in recent years report that it is very a difficult task, which should be no big surprise. "Going feral" for a few generations might make for a gradual change, but where is the incentive for the bees? The incentive for the bees is to reuse and repair existing comb as often and as long as possible. > We have all kinds scattered around the U.S. from various sources and > importations. > Has any one effort had lasting effects? Someone, tell us how that can be. It should be obvious that anyone going to the trouble and expense to import (or even smuggle) bees would not balk at the price of foundation, perhaps even offering the bees considerable drawn comb to get the bees "established". Once again, the hand of man. > Is *any* foundation good for bees? Aside from "voting" by absconding, I'm not sure how the bees could register any dissatisfaction. > Is *any* foundation good for the beekeeper? I've found a direct correlation between maximum extractor RPMs and fondness for foundation of increasingly robust construction, up to and including plastic. :) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:41:09 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: How much do we need to know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> To me, knowledge is always better than ignorance. >> But, does it make ignorance necessarily *bad*? How much do we need to >> know? > ...isn't this the "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee > Biology"? That is the intent, but we often fall far short. > Aren't we all proceeding under the assumption that it is better to be > informed than not? There are things I want to know and things I don't want to know. Think Sherlock Holmes. There are other reasons, too. I suspect that I am not unusual in that regard. And that most certainly does not mean just *more* information, but *better* information. What I seek and what I try to pass on is information of the highest quality. No argument on that, and let me say right now, that IMO you do an excellent job. Thank you. >> I was trying to say that if the local bees are so persistent that they >> need to be hunted down and eradicated, that there must be some redeeming >> quality there > I would liken the situation to feral dogs and cats. I can't think of any > redeeming qualities there. They are just a source of rabies and babies. I'm going to have to think long and hard on that one, but personally, although it may be true often, I am pretty sure it is not true in all, or even most, cases. Remember, we disagree in some important details on the best approach to breeding bees. >> And, I can't believe all those skep keepers were as ignorant as >> suggested. > And they thought the big bee was the King... (Aristotle was the first to > seriously study and record the behavior of bees...) Actually, I really doubt that, although that is what people think, at least until they really think. It is easy to spot such errors in hindsight. Obviously, just as today, some got details wrong, but how many serious beekeepers wrote, and how much of the writing has lasted until the present? Was Aristotle a successful commercial beekeeper of his time? I'll wager that there were very effective and profitable beekeepers who knew what they needed to know and had ingenious, efficient methods, even if they did not know what a scientist today thinks is important. Besides, I will wager big money that a lot of what we think we know now is just as ridiculous. Our ignorance does not stop us from doing big things. Here's to ignorance! We could not function without it, and I am fortunate to have plenty to share. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:05:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Downsizing In-Reply-To: <001201c74374$c27c93c0$7195453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor: It is plastic waxed foundation that came from Dadant. Reply: Ah then. The stuff you need to be exact with as we found out, but good for press plates and mangle plates for making wax foundation that is accepted faster. Also better for working and using with already regressed bees. With the exact plastic foundation you will need to make your endbars narrower to hubers old size of about 1/14 inch and also make sure there is sequence to putting in. When I used it for a few to see, even I had to respray and coat the frames with syrup and then use only the plastic and nothing else until being worked with excluder on bottom. After acceptance onto the plastic,like acceptance onto other plastics, then it becomes easier but if anything else in nuc like drawnout combs or wax they will use it instead first. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:14:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Downsizing In-Reply-To: <00b601c743ad$1470abc0$652da8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen: Bees that are so big as 5.4mm only come down as waves in increment, as they did in waves of sizing going bigger. Most all today have to have a minimum of 2 sizings down to get there to 4.9mm and some three FWIW. That is why Dadant sells the 5.1mm size for intermediate first step down, and the only way to get around it faster is the new HSC fully drawn out combs...........other then that put the 4.9mm in and drawn out wrong it still is about 5.1mm to 5.2mm. Your call as to doing/using. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 11:34:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs -now feral bees In-Reply-To: <20070129.044601.3639.1786455@webmail33.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: > > Although movable frames are great for close colony inspection, and > thus were mandated as the only legal type justified by the need for > official inspections for bee diseases, I wonder if diseasse control > is not worse today... I have yet to see a feral colony with a case > of American foulbrood or chalkbrood. > They die. Wax moth cleans up the remains. Therefor it is hard to observe something that is not there. Habeas corpus.**** ** I run into people who point out colonies that have existed for many years in trees. If they did, they would be the holy grail that we search for, but they never are. After more detailed questioning, it usually turns out that there were years when there were no bees in the tree. There may be studies on the stability of feral colonies in the wild, but it would be difficult to control the primary variable of beekeeper's colonies in the area that replenish the feral population. You could lose every feral colony every year but replenish it with "kept" bees every year so it would look like you had a stable feral population. I love to hear from people who wonder what all the fuss is about disappearing bees since they have never noticed their absence. They are always near a beekeeper and do not know it. The feral bees did die off, as our Pumpkin growers here in Maine found out. Sort of makes you wonder about those who collect feral bees because of their ability to cope with all the stresses out there. Maybe those colonies are from good beekeepers who are selecting for just those traits.and all the actual "feral' colonies died off long ago. Or maybe they are their own bees and you have a closed loop recycling system. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 11:56:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Is Foundation Good For Bees? In-Reply-To: <000001c7435c$281e11e0$0301000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > > My understanding of factors not open to dispute is: > > a) Bees working without foundation will tend to draw comb no smaller or > larger than the comb in the hive from which they came. > > Dennis Murrel can comment better than I on this, but what I recall in his research on small cells is the bees tend to draw comb in a continuum rather that any kind of uniform and consistent cell size. They actually do build comb both smaller and larger than what they started with but it will be in line with what they started with. Bob Harrison commented on this as to what he was doing with his trails. I have seen it with feral combs. The bees are also not uniform in size but their size varies by season with the smallest in winter and largest during or after the summer flows. He has some nice pictures that show this. The winter brood nest is mainly on the small foundation and summer on large and small. But you did say "tend" so maybe I am nit picking. I have alway thought that Dennis work is the actual breakthrough in beekeeping for our time. The first company that presses foundation that matches his work will make money. Non-uniform natural comb. The problem is there will be several different sheets since the size also varies from the central frame to the distant frames. Bill Truesdell (always open to dispute- not my comments mind you, just yours) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 11:41:10 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Is Foundation Good For Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Perhaps you should rephrase your statement. > As it is, you merely repeated yourself. Exactly. Since you apparenty misunderstood what I wrote and wrote at length (very rapidly, I understand) to argue with your own ideas, not mine, (and this is not the first time), I patiently rephrased what I had said, even more carefully than before, and enlarged on it, hoping you might now get it. I write as cleary as can, re-reading, thinking, and revising often. Even then, some routinely have trouble comprehending what I am saying, and, instead are seemingly distracted by reflections inside their own minds. For that, I have no cure, and I apologise. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:35:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ad running in the Fresno Bee by Lyle Johnson, who brokers in 50-60,000 colonies: FOR almond growers who felt bees would be cheap in Feb. I have 8 frame hives, avail $200/hive. w/pymnt due on delivery. 200 hive minimum order. XXX-XXX-XXXX As of last week, brokers reported plenty of bees "on paper." Beekeepers will face reality these next two weeks as they check to see if there are really bees remaining alive in the boxes. It's going to be very "interesting" to see how this plays out! Randy Oliver California -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:26:52 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Downsizing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bees that are so big as 5.4mm only come down as waves in > increment, as they did in waves of sizing going bigger... I assume that you are responding to my observation that the article you cited appears to me to show nothing more than normal, everyday bee behaviour--so far as it goes at least--even though the starter was 4.9 and the heading in the article, "Retrogressing bees hived on 5.4mm cell size, to 4.9mm." In spite, also, of the claimed goals, the progress--so far as he wrote--has been simply to allow his bees to make 5.2mm cells which in my experience is the norm (+/-), except in regions where AHB is predominant. Moreover, the date of the most recent part appears to be Fri, 1 Sep 2000. What happened after that? Is there a piece missing? If the experiment had concluded successfully I should have expected to be reading all about it. Instead, the articles end there, with the bees building cells of free comb at about 5.2mm--exactly where most of the bees (in the Northern US and Canada, anyhow) are found to be. Additionally, the article repeats a ludicrous claim, "Seeing that our country was founded upon and originally used 4.83mm cell sizing, ". Not only is that number ridiculously over-precise, but it is improvable, and wrong. In looking around the (poorly organised and confusing) "Historical Data on the Influence of Cell Size" page at BeeSource, I saw that specific number, and I seem to recall that I found it in an article saying that, at one point, Root used 4.83 cells per inch. (Couldn't find it again, though). That is quite different from 4.83mm. The plethora of measurements and interpretations cited in comb discussions is confusing, and it is clear to me that many have confused themselves, and then others. (See http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/cellcount.htm for an easy chart to navigate through this measurement shell game). Refer also to http://www.beesource.com/POV/lusby/part6.htm for a pointer to one of the confusions--square decimeter vs. decimeter square--that is part of the mind boggling flim flam around this topic. Whatever the history of cell sizes truly was (if it can ever be really and fully be known) the history is really immaterial and a distraction from the real question. The real question is, "Does the 4.9 hypothesis really work, , and can it be commercially successful, especially in EHB stock"? I was hoping this article would have offered a clue, but either the author gave up the test, failed, or simply neglected, as is so often the case, to finish writing up the experiment. As for the founding of the country, seems to me --correct me if I'm wrong-- that foundation was not even invented then. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:27:14 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: foundation-less combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>They die. Wax moth cleans up the remains. Therefor it is hard to observe something that is not there. Habeas corpus.**** Well, Bill, it's not quite that simple. At a minimum, I'd like to observe them in the dying process in nature before they get wiped out. It should be possible at least every once in a while, right? Now you may argue that I only get called to thriving colonies because collapsing colonies are a lesser nuisance. A feral colony with AFB in August should still have a large enough workforce to be a nuisance to a homeowner though. >>I run into people who point out colonies that have existed for many years in trees. If they did, they would be the holy grail that we search for, but they never are. Are you saying a feral colony can't survive on its own for several years in this day and age? I don't think you can come up with the evidence, pro or con. I am only going by the observations of the homeowners. If an observant homeowner tells me he's observed bees, with pollen on their legs, coming into a hole in his house every April (about a month before the start of our swarming season) and through the rest of the season, it suggests to a continually occupied cavity. [Yes, there are some homeowners who are curious about nature and not afraid to approach a bee's entrance hole. I had one person say he did not mind having the bees but his roofer was scared to death of them and the repairs had to be done.] Of course, this is NOT the case with EVERY feral colony but it is a case with a lot of colonies. >>There may be studies on the stability of feral colonies in the wild, but it would be difficult to control the primary variable of beekeeper's colonies in the area that replenish the feral population. You'd just have to come up with a method of tracking the queen, and her supercedure descendants, in a feral colony for several years. The nature of natural cavities and comb do not make this easy. Sounds like a great research project to me. >>You could lose every feral colony every year but replenish it with "kept" bees every year so it would look like you had a stable feral population. You are assuming the local beekeepers are carrying strong colonies into the next spring and that they swarm. :) In my neck of the woods, the number of beekeepers has been decreasing disappointedly fast. >>The feral bees did die off, as our Pumpkin growers here in Maine found out. There is no question the feral population has shrunk in many areas of the country with the introduction of the mites. I don't know if they are springing back everywhere but I did get a record number of calls from Nassau County on Long Island last summer where beekeeping has been outlawed for decades. I know of 2 beekeepers in Nassau and both of them are 10-15 miles away from the area where I received most calls. Of course, there may be some beekeepers there under the radar. I don't know for sure. What I do know is that my purchased Italian and NWC colonies would succumb to varroa within a year to a point of being way understrength for the winter. Since I started raising queens from collected feral queens, they do much better. Perhaps I raise better queens but it's the stock that determines resistance to varroa. BTW, to me, a feral colony, is any colony NOT taken directly from a managed hive. They can be long-term established colonies or colonies started from recent beekeeper swarms. I don't have a way of distinguishing between the two - although the color of the collected colonies is often a shade different from what I've seen, it's not a reliable indicator - and, in fact, the origin does not matter to me. All I am looking for is stock that does well left to its own devices. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:41:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: >Tom Seeley has seen bees survive on their own in the woods in upstate NY. I have followed Tom's work very closely. After raising queens from those wild hives, he concluded that their survival was NOT due to genetics. I also have been to the forest where these bees are and I can tell you it is not what I would call isolated. I am pretty sure I know exactly where those swarms came from. Tom suggested other factors may account for the survival of wild swarms, including the possibility of the presence of less-virulent mites. Another idea (mine) is: the colonies are widely spaced and high in trees may be very important. We keep our hives in apiaries, close to each other near the ground. Try keeping them 25 feet up and a quarter mile apart. That should work Anyway, there is no difference from a wild hive and a hive that sits in somebody's back yard for 5 years without being inspected. And if you think those hives are immune, I would disagree. Besides, we are talking about better beekeeping here. Better beekeeping does not mean knowing less, doing less. Plus, I think the whole feral bee thing is a "mystique". As far as us not having to worry about African genes in those wild swarms, don't bet on that one! pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:46:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: How much do we need to know? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit allen dick wrote: >And that most certainly does not mean just *more* information, but *better* >information. What I seek and what I try to pass on is information of the >highest quality. > >No argument on that, and let me say right now, that IMO you do an excellent >job. Thank you. Hey, you too, Allen. Thanks! I will state for the record (as I have said before): There is no One Right Way. So I welcome this opportunity to hear a variety of points of view on the subjects at hand. As I have also said in the past, this what I believe right now -- until I can get better information! pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:51:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Downsizing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: >That is why Dadant sells the 5.1mm size Hmm. I think the items in the bee supply catalogs reflect what the companies think people will buy. It would be a mistake to suppose that they are endorsing a product or method over another, just because it appears in their catalog. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 11:02:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Jaross Subject: All Skep Films on DVD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, I asked if all the German films on Skep Beekeeping were available for sale. Here's the reply below. In USD, about $135. A bit steep, but fascinating material. Does anyone know if this apiary is still in operation? Daer Michael Jaross thank you for your inquiry. We are pleased to offer: * Z 16 Traditional Skep Beekeeping in the Heathlands of **Northern Germany** – The Skep Beekeeper's Management Tasks through the Year *(running-time: 153 min, language: german/English) *As DVD-Video for 85,50 €**+ 18,00 € *Air-postage to the United States This DVD consists of all beekeeping-films:* E 2879, E 2901, E 2946, E 2962 E 2994, E 2790, E 2802, E 2661 and E 394* Our terms of payment: If you like to order the films, we’ll need your VISA – or MASTER-Card-Number. If we’ll have the number, we’ll transfer the money from your account and than we will send the film to you. So you can send the number via e-mail or fax. With best regards, Katharina Gabel *IWF** Wissen und Medien gGmbH *Nonnenstieg 72, 37075 Göttingen Katharina Gabel *Vertrieb und Marketing *Tel.: 0551/5024242 FAX 0551/5024408 mailto:katharina.gabel@iwf.de -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:37:19 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Feral Bees (Again) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I run into people who point out colonies that have existed for many years > in trees. If they did, they would be the holy grail that we search for, > but they never are. After more detailed questioning, it usually turns out > that there were years when there were no bees in the tree. Seems our group is divided into two, some who think wish that feral bees are the answer to everything--a mystique as one writer put it, and others who insist there are no feral bees. I personally fall between and suggest that each position might be correct or incorrect for some specific region. Each person typically decides from his or her own, necessarily limited experience and imagination, but that this is a huge continent, and it is possible that both are right, in specific instances. Where it all goes wrong and debate lets us down is when categorical statements are made, one way or the other. Some large regions are wilder and friendlier to bees than others, and those living near such places may see things that might not occur in a heavily farmed and treeless region. Personally, to me it is obvious that all ferals must be escaped bees, but that the extent, in terms of time and distance, and degree of their independent existence is the real subject of interest--and of question. I suspect there is not just one answer. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:11:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, We are getting calls in the Midwest from brokers looking for bees. Just like last year those brokers know exactly what bees which have spent the winter in cold weather look like. I just came from looking at some of my Missouri bees. The are wintering well but have moved down to normal winter size winter bees cluster WHICH IS AROUND FIVE FRAMES OF BEES THIS TIME OF YEAR.( with some larger) Too cold (just above freezing ) to check to see the amount of brood but these hives will be boiling with bees for apple pollination & making splits IF we get a warm March.. Exactly what I want to see this time of year if not going to almonds. I do not believe brokers would be calling if a shortage would not be happening. Regardless of what happened to Midwest beekeepers getting ------- last year when they sent the same type bees they sent in 2005 I believe an 8 frame strength hive should bring a couple hundred dollars. I have NEVER said the guy with the best hives should not get a higher price. At the ABF convention were some almond growers. They told me they would NOT ever turn their nose up at a five frame healthy hive of bees for almond pollination. Why would they? Five frames is what the have got for the last decade in WINTER from the Midwest. Those hives explode in almonds! The next ad you *might* see in a California newspaper might read: "Field run five frame hives of bees for $200 cash on delivery" Again to take words from my California broker friends: "Supply and demand" I kept my cool at the ABF convention when California beekeepers said: "field run bees are bees you drop in the field and run" I have watched when nets are pulled on loads of those bees in warm weather both in California almonds and in Texas. Those bees swarm the blossoms. Those locked in contracts at fifty dollars less will have to wait for next year for the big money. As Randy says it will be interesting to see how things shake out. Did Lyle say how many of those hives he had? I didn't think so. Lyle ( I was told) got some really strong hives late from Minnesota and Wisconsin . Those areas made bumper honey crops, had strong fall flows and were unaffected by drought. I have not heard of Lyle calling Midwest beekeepers looking for bees. Many almond growers ( direct conversation) are not happy with the higher almond pollination fees regardless of the hype about you get what you pay for as the guys with the dinks will get the same money IF a shortage and they wait till last. THEY DID IN 2005. Supply & demand Also a shortage may not happen. As Keith Jarret said last year beekeepers hauled every hive they could get their hands on to California. Might happen again but at this point I don't think so. Still too early to get a clear picture. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:52:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs -now feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >waldig@netzero.com wrote: >> I have yet to see a feral colony with a case >> of American foulbrood or chalkbrood. Hello! I have yet to see a feral colony with foulbrood either. Some have suggested the disease will invariably kill a feral colony, and hence sampling only live colonies will not give a representative (Taylor 1992 & others since). But according to a research manuscript by GOODWIN, HOUTEN, & PERRY; “There is, however, no evidence for this assertion.” These researchers collected 30 bees from the entrances of feral and domestic colonies for testing. They tested feral colonies with known ages, having an average age of 6.7 years. Seven of 109 (6.4%) feral colonies tested positive for B. larvae spores. Whereas, ALL the samples (100%) of foragers taken from the 15 managed colonies tested positive for B. larvae spores. They also found that of the ferals that did test positive, they all had very low spore counts compared with the samples taken from managed colonies with clinical symptoms of American foulbrood disease, suggesting that most of the feral colonies may not have been diseased at all. The researchers conclude in the study that: “Perhaps feral colonies are at greater risk of contracting American foulbrood disease from managed colonies rather than the other way around.” So keep on collecting those wonderful Feral Honeybees! Best Wishes, Joe Waggle EcologicalBeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:23:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Feral Bees (Again) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit allen dick wrote: >Seems our group is divided into two, some who think wish that feral bees are >the answer to everything-- Hello Allen! NO type of bee including ferals are the answer to everything. But the best of the ferals, as are the best of 'any good stock' is the answer to many problems, a good selection process being key here. >Personally, to me it is obvious that all ferals must be escaped bees, but >that the extent, in terms of time and distance, and degree of their >independent existence is the real subject of interest--and of question. Ths is of great intrest to myself also. As Mozer has found feral bees with "non-commercial" lineage, suggesting naturalized "New World" ecotypes that are conceivably descendants of the earliest introductions. It is conceivable that ferals exist in other isolated places have lineages going back many years. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle EcologicalBeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:23:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Feral bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > > Another > idea (mine) is: the colonies are widely spaced and high in trees may be very > important. We keep our hives in apiaries, close to each other near the > ground. Try keeping them 25 feet up and a quarter mile apart. That should work > > > Interesting that I thought the same thing in regard to Waldig's comments. I could easily show that a swarm from one of my hives could, through further swarms, move ten miles from my home in a year or so. All that would be necessary then would be for the intermediate colonies to die off from whatever reason and the more distant colonies would, if there were no other beekeepers in the area, thrive because of the isolation. That group of bees would expand, naturally, until they came into contact with mites again. You could then have collapse all around the contaminated area, but that might just isolate the bees again so they continue to thrive. Separation is everything, as Peter surmises. It is not that the bees are genetically superior but that nature does not congregate even a few colonies of bees in a small area. It knows better and keeps the losses and problems far enough apart to maintain the health of the whole system. When you look at a forested area, the separation would be even greater, mostly because of the lack of forage. If feral bees are the answer, it is easy to prove. Just move them to your bee yard on their own comb and never treat. Bill Truesdell (who believes in feral bees but not Allen Dick, who actually is that man behind the curtain) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:58:33 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 29/01/2007 13:58:06 GMT Standard Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: <> Wasn't the high incidence of AFB a purely American problem? There was no disease issue in the UK, just a big campaign after World War 1 to persuade beeks to use 'modern' equipment and imported queens. I wonder if the real problem wasn't something unique to the way Us beeks were working, but I've never heard of any research into the question. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 17:31:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In yesterday's newspaper from Woodland, California: http://www.dailydemocrat.com/search/ci_5106980 =20 Also of beekeeper interest: http://www.dailydemocrat.com/search/ci_5106979 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 17:42:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >If feral bees are the answer, it is easy to prove. Just move them to >your bee yard on their own comb and never treat. Hello! I am doing just that! Keeping bees caught from the local ferals and No treatments for 6 years now, and on thier own comb. Again, I reiterate for the record; Feral bees or any other single type bees are not the answer. Well selected bees from those suited for ones area are the best answer we have to solving many problems. Joe (who knows from experience well selected ferals are better than the run of the mill ferals) Joe Waggle EcologicalBeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:05:13 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am doing just that! Keeping bees caught from the local ferals and No > treatments for 6 years now, and on thier own comb. Just curious, I imagine you've inspected and measured some of the brood comb. What are you seeing? Also, I checked out your area on Google Earth some time back and noticed a large wooded area near Derry, where I seem to recall that you are located. I've wondered if that has proven a refuge for bees, or if you find more in the nearby agricultural areas? I've also wondered what size of apiary you maintain with these collected bees. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:56:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob H wrote, Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: Almond Pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the info on the articles Aaron. They just never get it right, do they? I wonder how the almond growers make it renting two hives per acre for $ 150.00 and then selling almonds yielding $ 4.00 per acre. Does that figure out to 2.2 Cents per pound or 22 cents per pound? I think it's 2.2 cents per pound. They better start planting corn. It's at record levels,....... almost, and sells for almost 7 cents a pound. Ain't agriculture great? Tim Tucker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:55:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit allen dick wrote: >Just curious, I imagine you've inspected and measured some of the brood >comb. What are you seeing? Hello Allen! Not sure what you mean, but viability in ferals I have collected in the past tend to run abut 95% give or take. I’ve been rather disappointed with brood viability, but last season I identified an area of woodlands that ferals originating from there exhibit above 98% brood viability. I have not determined a mode of resistance in these particular ferals just yet, but it will be interesting to see if the correlation of varroa fecundity to colony fecundity causes mite pressure. If you mean measured did I measure cell sizes,,,, the ferals that assess well enough to keep generally run between 4.9 and 5.1 tops for my area. I have noticed last season an overall up tic in brood viability and largeness of patterens in queens mated that season. I don’t know the cause of this, but assume it is due to the ongoing feral recovery has something to do with it. >Also, I checked out your area on Google Earth some time back and noticed a >large wooded area near Derry, where I seem to recall that you are located. Yes, I am about a mile into the wooded area east of Derry. Feral resurgence is lagging a bit in my immediate area, but lately I’ve noticed more ferals beelining for the woodlands when bait is set out. >I've wondered if that has proven a refuge for bees, or if you find more in >the nearby agricultural areas? This is a great question, after the crashes of 95-95, the first ferals that I collected that survived without aids was in 2001. They were found in small faming area with a variety of forage and many voids in the form of old silos, abandon farm houses and large border trees (assuming several were hollow). I have only identified one more farming area providing good ferals, and the common denominator seems to be the presence of ‘abundant voids’ and ‘forage variety‘. I believe I may have identified what might be an intense allorgroomiing trait in these bees caught in 2001, but as such does not meet the typical description of allogrooming as described by Seeley and looks at first glance to be an aggressive behavior to many that have witnessed it. So this season plans are to attempt to evaluate the trait and see if I can’t film the actual grooming of a mite, or at least establish that it is either allogrooming or aggressive. Several seasons ago I began targeting woodland ferals, after I found them to perform very well during assessments in comparison against other ferals caught in the farmlands that season. I realize that these woodlands might be grading better simply because I am assessing them in the environment that they have adapted to. But because brood viability tends to be higher in the woodland ferals, I’m going with the assumption that this is the direction to focus catching swarms, and also to pockets of early recovery of ferals farmlands such as the area of the feral caught in 2001 >I've also wondered what size of apiary you maintain with these collected >bees. My apiary size runs 20 colonies. I assess up to 20 additional feral stock per season, which is usually culled down by the end of the first season to about 50%, then by spring, culling another 10 to 20%. I don’t enjoy culling to such a degree, but I only keep the best performers each season. These are either integrated into my Apiary by replacing bottom performers, or given away to nearby beekeepers wanting bees or staring just starting out. I’m expanding another 10 to 20 colonies next season into out yards, to reduce the risk a bit. The goal was to get the bees to performing at a respectable level before expanding the operation into breeding and such. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle EcologicalBeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:16:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Waggle wrote >>>>My apiary size runs 20 colonies. I encourage you to expand your apiary, Joe. But don't underestimate yourself--you are only counting your queen mothers. Your drone mothers are likely mostly ferals. It is a two way street--the ferals are inseminating your queens, and your colonies likely throw swarms and drones out into the woods. Even though you are small scale, it seems that you are doing great work! Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 01:29:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs -now feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If a natural population has a lower incidence of disease or parasitism than a managed population it does not necessarily mean that this difference has a genetic basis. Peter brought up a good hypothesis to explain low levels of colony loss to varroa in a feral population in NY State... low colony density in the feral population. Clearly more research will be needed to find out the fine-points of what is going on, but I bet you a dollar for a doughnut the mechanism will not be simple. There is another well-documented example of unmanaged colonies with varroa, although these colonies were located close together. I made reference to this ongoing study from Sweden in an earlier post. The study found unmanaged colonies survived varroa infestation, but the reasons are an unresolved mixture of swarming, and selection both on the bee and the mite. The abstract for this study is at the bottom. The fact that unmanaged colonies deal with disease is not proof that I would be better off not managing my colonies. There is a big difference between a managed and unmanaged system and the economics are just not there for honey hunting as a living. On the flip side I could never understand why Peter equated skep beekeeping with being unmanaged. They are VERY managed, they are just not on moveable combs. The fact that selection occurs in unmanaged populations is also not proof that I would be better off forgetting about purposeful selection. There are examples of how concerted breeding has yielded fruits. High levels of AFB-resistance were achived in the 1940s by selecting colonies inoculated with an AFB-comb insert. Steve Taber reported very good success selecting for low chalkbrood following inoculation with chalkbrood in pollen patties. Harbo and Harris were able to weedle VSH out of a relatively susceptible US bee populations by selection. Selective breeding works. It works with the mass selection strategy Allen was speaking to (breed off what ever lives and looks strong and gradually move the population along). It works even faster in the Page and Laidlaw closed population breeding model (I cite as examples New World Carniolans and maybe even Everett Hastings' Birch Hills Carniolans (Allen, that is Birch Hills, SASKATCHEWAN)). It works yet faster with breeding systems not yet contemplated by honey bee breeders but common in plant breeding, such as a tiered nucleus breeding scheme. What ever you might think of the green revolution, Norman Borlaug got his 1970 nobel prize for developing dwarf, high-yielding, disease-resistant wheat varieties using these same techniques (a link to a lecture by him): http://webcast.berkeley.edu/event_details.php? webcastid=9955&p=1&ipp=1000&category= So I think its great what we are finding out about feral bees, but I am looking farther onto how I can translate these examples into concrete selective breeding strategies or new ways to manage my colonies. Adony Survival of mite infested (Varroa destructor) honey bee (Apis mellifera) colonies in a Nordic climate Ingemar Fries, Anton Imdorf and Peter Rosenkranz Apidologie 37 (2006) 564-570 An isolated honey bee population (N = 150) was established on the southern tip of Gotland, an island in the Baltic sea. After infestation with 36 to 89 Varroa destructor mites per colony, they were unmanaged and allowed to swarm. For over six years colonies were monitored for swarming, winter losses, infestation rate in the fall, and bee population size in the spring. Winter mortality rate decreased from 76% and 57% in the third and fourth years, to 13% and 19% in the fifth and sixth years. Swarming rates increased from zero the third field season to 57.1% and 36.4% in the last two years. The mite infestation on adult bees decreased during the last two years, from 0.47% in the third year to 0.19% and 0.22% respectively. Our data suggest that a host-parasite co-adaptation has occurred ensuring survival of both the host and the parasite. The mechanisms behind this co- adaptation require further study. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 07:50:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs -now feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adony Melathopoulos wrote: > I could never understand why Peter equated skep beekeeping with being unmanaged. They are VERY managed, they are just not on moveable combs. Come one, Adony, that's easy. I just never looked into it! Now I see what you mean. Still, I can't imagine doing beekeeping that way! It's hard enough work, with frames -- I would never even attempt it without them! pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:16:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit randy oliver wrote: >I encourage you to expand your apiary, Joe. But don't underestimate >yourself--you are only counting your queen mothers… Hello Randy! I do recognize that I should make expansion a priority. My biggest fear is that if one apiary gets wiped out by some catastrophe, and I could loose my best stock in one swoop. Because I have limited number of colonies, I’ve been splitting my top ferals and moving them out to different yards as a way to spread out the risk a bit. I admit to being a bit lax in my efforts to expand, so I need to get working at this a bit more. Your drone mothers are >likely mostly ferals,,, I have been rather disappointed in the past with mating success, but last season I finally was able to get very nice matings, which I hope after waiting so long, is an indicator of adequate drone source from a recovering local feral population. The plan was to allow my better stock to raise what ever drone they wish as a way to get the genetics I like infused into my local feral population, which until last season, seemed to be lagging a bit in the feral recovery. Then if catastrophe happens, I can draw back bees from my local feral population, and this will also aid in feral drone source for future matings. I can’t go down to the bee store and buy more ferals if I need stock, so I am also considering the possibility of moving drone source colonies from early recovery feral stock captured in 2001 from farmlands into a woodland area (discovered last season and in my early stage of assessing them found them to have very nice performing queens) as added insurance. I want to see if I can infuse traits found in the perfered 2001 stock into the woodland bees, this to create another repository of genetics with traits I prefer that I can draw from if need be. Plus, it would be a bit closer to home. :) Best Wishes, Joe Waggle EcologicalBeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:15:08 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I have followed Tom's work very closely. After raising queens from those wild hives, he concluded that their survival was NOT due to genetics. I am not stuck on superior genetics although each colony has its own, unique characteristics/traits. Just like with feral cats, feral bees are just that - on their own for one or more generations. To me, the most significant point is NOT how the feral bees survive in the wild but the fact that they DO survive in my neck of the woods. This is a starting point. I keep my bees in Langstroth hives with plastic frames. The colonies derived from feral mothers have survived with mites longer that the purchased stock from Georgia, Florida, or California. Their ability to overwinter better - did not lose one colony last winter and none so far this winter - is nice. [But I do use OA once in the winter.] Last season I got 120lb+ per colony bet. the spring flow (poor) and the fall flow (very nice). That's significant to me, too. One more thing I'd like to try - this year if I get to making the set- up - is to let the bees build their own comb in Langstroth equipment. The feral comb, with one exception, from the brood nest area has averaged 5,0 mm. That's about 0,1 mm less than my Pierco frames. I am not out to make converts out of sceptics. I merely report my observations so that anyone interested can try working with local bees themselves. Having an open mind is a delightful thing. >>Another idea (mine) is: the colonies are widely spaced and high in trees may be very important. The colony spacing in managed apiaries is closer but I am not sure it affects mite survival. [The typically larger managed colony size is probably a bigger factor in a mite number explosion.] The closer spacing will affect foraging opportunities. As with regard to colony height, I removed one colony at ground level in a decaying tree on the north coast of Long Island 2 years ago. The homeowner reported seeing this colony swarm the previous 3 years and was getting tired of the spectacle. I think good nest thermodynamics make winter survival better and doubt the height affects the mites. >>Anyway, there is no difference from a wild hive and a hive that sits in somebody's back yard for 5 years without being inspected. And if you think those hives are immune, I would disagree. Besides, we are talking about better beekeeping here. I never said they were 100% immune. I only said that they survive better than the stock I had previously purchased. My beekeeping has not changed except that I am rasing my own queens and better raised queens do not equate to better mite resistance (as far as I know). >>Plus, I think the whole feral bee thing is a "mystique". There is nothing mystique - perhaps one can find collecting them "romantic" - about feral bees. Nature ruthlessly culls any ill- adopted stock. When a homeowner calls me to remove a nuisance honey bee colony, I believe I get to see & collect colonies that make it well through the gauntlet of nature's rigors. >>As far as us not having to worry about African genes in those wild swarms, don't bet on that one! You are right. They will likely be introduced in my area. Not sure if they will survive the winters in my area though. I am hoping not. And Africanized traits are not consistent - some in Africa and South America claim their bees are rather gentle although this does not seem to be the case in Mexico from what I've read. I perform feral removals without a veil after smoking and verifying the disposition of a colony. I do bring a veil just in case I eventually come across a nasty/Africanized colony. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:26:55 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Wasn't the high incidence of AFB a purely American problem? I've heard of cases of foulbrood (not sure if American or European) on the continent but I don't how often it occurs. Perhaps European beeks recycle their wax more frequently? Wax replenishment takes out significant amounts of foulbrood spores. In my neck of the woods, beeks tend to overuse Terramycine not recycle the wax. One beekeeper I am friends with has not renewed the combs since he started nearly 30 years ago. He's reporting high winter failures this year and so he may be realizing that perhaps it's the wax. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 07:44:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe wrote: I want to see if I can infuse traits found in the perfered 2001 stock into the woodland bees, this to create another repository of genetics with traits I prefer that I can draw from if need be. Plus, it would be a bit closer to home. :) Sounds like a great plan. Closer to home is always better, since apiaries closer to home always get more attention. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 07:56:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs -Gotland study MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is another well-documented example of unmanaged colonies with varroa, although these colonies were located close together. Hi Adony This is exactly what would be expected in a nordic climate. What you're doing is allowing the hand of selective pressure to shift the mite's reproductive strategy from horizontal transmission to vertical transmission (colony to colony by collapse, vs. parent colony to daughter colony by swarming), plus selecting for mite tolerant bees. It is a coevolution taking place. The key requirement is a nordic climate where mite-stressed swarms all die, where mite-stressed colonies don't swarm, and, most importantly, where colonies collapse during cold periods when no robbing takes place, thus eliminating horizontal transmission of mites. The only mites that are able to survive for multiple years are those that don't cause colony collapse. The only bees that survive are those that can tolerate a low level of mites. I would expect a situation as in Gotland to be the perfect place to find varroa and the EHB to establish a stable host-parasite relationship. Beekeepers in northern climes, where mites are not horizontally transmitted through robbing, are the most likely to experience a stable mite/bee relationship. In areas where major chemical control is practiced, the majority of mites that pass on their genes are those that cause a colony to collapse. Beekeepers there are inadvertently selecting for mites that cause colony collapse, since that would be the most mathematically efficient way to pass on their genes. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:45:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Gotland study Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >From the "Gotland study": Our results allow us to conclude that the problems facing the apicultural industry with mite infestations probably is linked to the apicultural system, where beekeepers remove the selective pressure induced from the parasitism by removing mites through control efforts. Further experiments must confirm whether selection experiments as described here can be used as a basis for further honey bee breeding programs. This is an interesting concept, but it has a couple of weak points. First, queen breeders *are* selecting for bees that do not require chemicals, or require limited application. Second, if you don't treat and all the bees die, you have nothing left from which to select. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:51:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Feral bees In-Reply-To: <003c01c74486$6952f7e0$ad25fea9@jps.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > Closer to home is always better, since apiaries >closer to home always get more attention. >Randy Oliver except the home yard, which gets the least. Mike -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 09:51:50 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 29 Jan 2007 at 16:58, Robert Brenchley wrote: > Wasn't the high incidence of AFB a purely American problem? There was no > disease issue in the UK, > Robert Brenchley > Birmingham UK The data from the statutory inspections of colonies in England and Wales show that in 1952-54 the incidence of AFB in England and Wales was 1.5% of the colonies inspected. The corresponding figure for 2004 was 0.3%. What is the definition of "high"? Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorks UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:47:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >The data from the statutory inspections of colonies in England and Wales show >that in 1952-54 the incidence of AFB in England and Wales was 1.5% of the >colonies inspected. The corresponding figure for 2004 was 0.3%. > >What is the definition of "high"? In the US, I think beekeepers would consider 5% or more to be high. here are some figures Table One NY Apiary Statistics (AFB) 2002 Apiary Size Apiaries Colonies Rate 1-10 405 1565 89 5.67% 11-20 90 1361 44 3.23% 21-30 73 2018 86 4.26% 31-40 68 2766 34 1.23 41-50 8 379 0 - 50+ 41 3593 06 0.17% Statewide Apiary Disease Rate 14.75% Colony Disease Rate 4.50% * * * Table 2. Comparison of American foulbrood disease and Varroa mite infestation in Iowa apiaries in 1992. *percent of E.R. tests pos. Number of: Examined AFB Varroa __________________________________________________________ Colonies 9,742 305 (3.1%) --- (13%)* Apiaries 1045 78 (7.5%) 136 (13%) Beekeepers 354 48 (14%) 63 (18%) Counties 95 38 38 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:05:06 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 30/01/2007 18:15:36 GMT Standard Time, cognant.mike@BTCONNECT.COM writes: <> Thanks for the figures, which sound about right. What was the incidence in the US when laws about moveable comb came in? Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:52:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Organic foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone know where to obtain foundation made from certified organic beeswax in North America? A google search only comes up with a New Zealand source with a large minmum order. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:04:48 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: OA In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I've been thinking about some of the previous mails re OA As others have said, often 1 treatment is enough for the whole year That is, after a winter treatment, there will be <500 mites the next fall Most hives can withstand this Given that: a mite generation is 1/2 month (or a little more) each generation doubles (") at least 12 generations are possable Well 2^12 is 4K... minus say 3/4 mortality? This strongly suggests that an OA treatment kills ALL the mites or else there would be more in the fall Can anyone point out error in my logic? dave -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:15:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: OA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Given that: > a mite generation is 1/2 month (or a little more) > The actual growth rate of the mite population varies from about 1% to 3% a day, based upon various studies. Often lower in warmer climes, higher with high intensity broodrearing in northern climes. Average temperate seems to be about 2-2.5% per day. A doubling each month is average. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:26:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Organic foundation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Are you certified? Or are you organic or plan to be? Or do you just want organic foundation? My suggestion would be to start with foundation-less frames and raise your bees organically (if that's possible for your situation, mine is not). then you would have your organic foundation as well as natural-sized cells. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:59:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic foundation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian: Not that I am aware of, for those in our circle are pretty much keeping it for their own usage or exchanging within the loop, as they help each other build numbers. Also, I am talking zero treatment beekeepers here. Don't see much being around for several years for actual marketing as it is too preciously needed. So if you can find it elsewhere get it FWIW. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:18:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Organic foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit After keeping bees for a decade I was astounded to find within a days drive of my home an isolated group of beekeepers who have no varroa/tracheal mites and no AFB. They have a pool of about 150 hives of a Buckfast/Carniolan cross and have cooperatively work together to keep nonlocal bees out. So I'm thinking of starting a small apiary in this area by purchasing bees from this group and laying the ground work for organic certification. The area is sparsely populated and the land free from ag and or industrial chemicals so I have the basic ingredients to go organic in this apiary without pushing the envelope of the definition organic. Here is the only credible source of organic foundation I found online. http://beeswax.co.nz/index.php?page=orgcomb I wonder what the response would be if I purchased a pallet and offered for sale the surplus I did not need? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:53:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Gotland study Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote: >This is an interesting concept, but it has a couple of weak points. First, >queen breeders *are* selecting for bees that do not require chemicals,,,, Hello Peter! In reading the quote over: “>Our results allow us to conclude that the >problems facing the apicultural industry with >mite infestations probably is linked to the apicultural >system” It appears they are suggesting it is linked to the “apicultural system”. If we are not assured that the breeders ‘and their neighbors’ that are contributing drone source to this system aren’t also selecting for 'ALL stock taht contribute drone source or not' that do not require treatments, the statement seems fit. or >require limited application. The problem here would be determining what a limited application actually is, or what level of assistance an application is actually providing. Second, if you don't treat and all the bees >die, you have nothing left from which to select. This is true, but IMO this is a potential risk that exists even if one does treat all their bees or provides limited treatments. Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:47:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Organic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All, >After keeping bees for a decade I was astounded to find within a days drive of my home an isolated group of beekeepers who have no varroa/tracheal mites and no AFB. You might also be surprised to find I have got some ocean front property to sell in Missouri.( Don't get upset only kidding but what reaction did you expect?) >I wonder what the response would be if I purchased a pallet and offered for sale the surplus I did not need? I would not be interested. I see nothing wrong with using fresh cappings wax from your own bees. I certainly would not pay top dollar for "organic" wax for foundation pattern for the bees make comb. The organic people you visited (in dead of winter and not looking at their bees yet I suppose) need to speak with our USDA-ARS researchers. No is highly suspect. I am very skeptacle of people with 150 hives of bees and say no mites and no AFB. I know you are looking for a "magic bullet" Brian but none exists for mites and AFB. A % of those hives most likely carry the AFB spores. Maybe only a small percent. I also would bet money samples of those bees in August would turn up most likely both tracheal mites & varroa if the hives have never had any kind of treatment. However the fact the hives are thriving ( as told to you) would warrant a close look at their methods of beekeeping. Have you looked at their hives and done tests? Good luck with your project and keep us posted. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:15:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen mentioned that some commercial beekeepers are making/using a screened bottom board that is more robust than most available on the market place. Would some one be prepared to send me some information ? I am using a bottom board that fits onto a 33"( by 48") pallet. Thanks, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:41:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Organic foundation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You might contact Donald Kuchenmeister AKA Fatbeeman and/or visit his Dixie Bee Supply website at: http://www.geocities.com/fatbeeman/ He claims to have been chemical-free since 1993 and sells home made chemical-free small cell foundation made from his own wax as well as queens and small cell nucs which he ships nation-wide. I understand he fogs with FGMO so he's not necessarily treatment free, but at least you can eat what he treats his bees with... and maybe even feel better for trying it too :) I've spoken to Don before, he's as nice a man as you'd want to meet. I don't know if the person inquiring about organic foundation wanted small cell or not but Don might be able to help out in any case. George- ---------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:08:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: Organic foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dan and Candice Tegart makes their own certified organic foundation. They are large Alberta honey producers who have their own foundation rolling line. I do not know who his certifying agency and, consequently, cannot tell you if his certification meshes with USDA's standard, but you can ask him this directly: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/tegart/dtegart/ Good luck, Adony -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:25:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs -Gotland study Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 07:56:08 -0800, randy oliver wrote: >In areas where major chemical control is practiced, the majority of mites >that pass on their genes are those that cause a colony to collapse. >Beekeepers there are inadvertently selecting for mites that cause colony >collapse, since that would be the most mathematically efficient way to pass >on their genes. Randy, I think you are completely in tune with the scientific zeitgeist with your thinking. It makes sense to me. I remember the first theoretical papers outlining these ideas for honey bee diseases was about 5-8 years ago. I am aware of some research groups that are beginning to develop experiments to test these theories out. I expect there many of these will yield results over the next decade. It should be interesting, particularily if this work gives us some practical guidelines for managing diseases and mites. Along this same line, about ten years ago there was a considerable interest to the connected field of Darwinian medicine... I wonder what ever came of this. These ideas were popularised in a book "Why We Get Sick: The New Science of Darwinian Medicine". Now that sometime has passed I wonder how the theory is holding up. Adony -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:22:18 +0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs -Gotland study In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: randy oliver > Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs -Gotland study > It is a coevolution taking place. The key requirement is a nordic climate Hello Randy, This is happening in other places too. In 2002 I visited Roger White in Cyprus that had a hive surviving without treatment. Roger said the small hive we were looking at didn't build up to produce much but was just sitting there idling. Maybe Rog would comment on what happened to that hive? From personal talk with Ingemar about the Gotland project, he leans towards the reason being lower reproduction rate with the surviving colonies. When bees don't produce much brood, there is not much mites produced either. And that's logical, bees don't need to produce more honey during the summer than is needed to take them through the next winter. Even a small colony will produce the 20-25 kg needed for winter in our climate. So left to natural selection the bees will revert back to smaller colonies that swarm every year. The swarming in unmanaged colonies is also a reason why they seem to handle the mites better. A broodless period of 3-4 weeks when the mites are unable to reproduce will cut back mite numbers considerably, and with only 1-2 brood cycles before winter with the new queen, there will not be so many mites going into winter. There is a number of very large queen producers in the US, I believe this has affected the gene pool negatively over the years. In Europe we have a larger number of smaller queen producers that also work with a greater diversity of bee races. It could be the reason for what some of you see with the feral colonies. When swarms from different sources fly into the woods their virgins will mate with a greater diversity of drones. Their offspring will have more vigor, and a greater genetic mixture will make it easier for further selection. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden http://beeman.se -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:24:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Organic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian Bob's right on. Tests of cappings wax show virtually no chemical residues even in chemically-treated hives. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:34:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Gotland study and sublethal fluvalinate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adony said: Randy, I think you are completely in tune with the scientific zeitgeist with your thinking. Thanks, Adony. We beekeepers seem to have an innate ability to keep shooting ourselves in the foot, as well as putting said foot into our mouths. Somewhat related--in researching for an upcoming article on chemical control, I'm finding that there are virtually no studies on the sublethal effects of miticides on WORKER bees or brood. Especially lacking are studies on fluvalinate--which appears to be the most widely used and abused varroacide on the planet. Again, if anyone's got any citations for sublethal effects of fluvalinate on worker (as opposed to queen or drone) bees or brood, or on colony buildup or honey production (other than Westcott and Winston 1999), please pass them on. Thanks, Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---