From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:53:36 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8586B48437 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFhrpW016524 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:16 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0702A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 330543 Lines: 7747 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 21:17:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs -Gotland study MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit P-O Gustafsson wrote: > > There is a number of very large queen producers in the US, I believe > this has affected the gene pool negatively over the years. Absolutely! The queen producers rely upon a very small number of queen breeders. Screening for mite tolerant bees takes effort--you've got to sample every productive colony to see if any of them have low mite levels. Few are willing to do the work. The few who do, can only supply a limited genetic pool. Promising mutations are very likely to be overlooked in the US bee population. My hat's off to the ARS researchers, and Marla Spivak, Sue Cobey, Tom Glenn, etc. But they can only sample a relatively small portion of the bee population. If we had thousands of small-scale queen breeder/producers, we'd progress toward mite tolerant bees much faster. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:41:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Gotland study and sublethal fluvalinate In-Reply-To: <00a801c745ba$440ec240$ad25fea9@jps.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy: Might want to look at the first two listed here: as fluvalinate has sublethal effect and works to negative as temps get colder with inverse toxicity for bees. http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/chemdata.htm Dee- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 03:34:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Organic foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:47:21 -0600, Bob Harrison wrote >The organic people you visited (in dead of winter and not looking at their >bees yet I suppose) need to speak with our USDA-ARS researchers. No is >highly suspect. > >I am very skeptacle of people with 150 hives of bees and say no mites and no >AFB. > > >Have you looked at their hives and done tests? > fine don't believe me...why should I care ? a lot of people were skepitcal too of claims made about GW being an idiot 6 years ago and now its considered pretty much common knowledge eh?.... anyhow to set the record straight they are not "organic people" (as in the birkenstock kind) just normal beekeepers very isolated from the typical beekeeping areas . they have not brought in any outside bees other then Kona queens. several raise their own queens and sell each other bees or queens. for several reasons I don't feel like divulging the exact details of this at the moment. they know what they have and are trying to protect it... I'll stake my reputation on the claim of no mites and no AFB, they have documented proof from outside credible sources. there are 9 or so beekeepers involved mostly hobby but a couple have 30-60 hives. lets just say its not a typical situation one finds in the Midwest, the location is obviously the key. this is not that unheard eh? Hawaii has no varroa and I would not be suprised that somewhere else in North America a few isolated pockets exist. anybody else know of any? or maybe they don't want to say....and why would we call in a fed lab coat guy? Don't we call them in after everything is all hosed up? please read this article (link below) and tell me organic is an idealistic notion...the guy is turning business away . plus he has a business to be proud of that does not make him more of a chemical applicator then a bee charmer, nor does he infringe on other beekeepers with smaller operations by moving hives back and forth across the country loaded with the latest bee parasite, virus, or roach. http://pacific.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2005/11/14/smallb1.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:07:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic foundation In-Reply-To: <45C10D20.7000205@sweettimeapiary.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Fergusson wrote: > > He claims to have been chemical-free since 1993 and sells home made > chemical-free small cell foundation made from his own wax as well as > queens and small cell nucs which he ships nation-wide. I understand he > fogs with FGMO so he's not necessarily treatment free, but at least > you can eat what he treats his bees with... and maybe even feel better > for trying it too :) Two observations. FGMO is a chemical so he is not "chemical free". Second. If small cell works, why does he need to use FGMO? If you look back in the archives, this is a common thread- I do this thing and it works but BTW I do this too. Generally it is the latter that is the reason it works. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:20:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Organic Foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>>chemical-free<<<< On Semantics: Most of us that try to protect our hives without the harder pesticides refer to Fluvalinate, Cumophos and Amitraz as "chemicals". Terramyacin as well. You knew that Bill. I've visited and written about Don and can attest that he does not use these "chemicals." He does use many of the essential oils and FGMO. I've just come from seeing his 300 healthy hives to Fl where hives are crashing that had all of the above "chemicals." In the last few days I've looked at 1000 of them. Not saying the treatments cause the problem-but they probably didn't help. Don may be ahead of the curve. On clean wax: Correct me if I'm wrong. 1. Commercial wax foundation is irradiated so that AFB is not a worry. Home grown foundation may harbor AFB. 2. I know a knowledgeable guy who says that cappings wax is the dirtiest wax of all. 3. I heard last week that someone, somewhere is considering a way to treat wax with ozone to remove pesticide buildup. Anyone know more? I just came from Dons after bringing down some cappings wax and making some pesticide-free foundation while I visited. Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:14:05 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Organic Foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > 1. Commercial wax foundation is irradiated so that AFB is not a worry. > Home grown foundation may harbor AFB. This is a common myth that should be busted. I have talked to several researchers about this and always come up with the same answer. No one has a proven case of AFB from foundations. Not even the trials where foundation was made only from the frames with full of AFB larva come up with a deceased colony. One trial could measure some spores in bees the next week after foundation was put, but not nearly enough to pop up a decease. So how can this be ? My vision is that to make a young larva sick it must be fed spores. The bees producing larval food do not eat ( ingest) wax, and therefore do not transmit decease from wax. We do know that there can be quite a bit of AFB spores in the wax coming from sick colonies. So the question is; has someone seen data that shows that foundations can introduce AFB to a colony ? By the way I believe that irradiation of foundations is rare. Beekeepers radiate built combs, but foundation ? Never heard of it. Ari Seppälä Finland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:06:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Organic Foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dick > 1. Commercial wax foundation is irradiated so that AFB is not a worry. Haven't checked this recently, but work I read years ago found that simply melting AFB spores into wax tends to make them not infective. As far as I know, there are no reports of ABF from foundation. I've never heard of manufacturers irradiating nowadays, but they didn't used to, and no one got AFB from foundation. > 2. I know a knowledgeable guy who says that cappings wax is the dirtiest > wax of all. All the tests I've read show minimal chems in cappings wax.. New wax drawn in chemically-contaminated boxes also is very pure. > Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:12:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Organic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill said: > If you look back in the archives, this is a common thread- I do this > thing and it works but BTW I do this too. Generally it is the latter > that is the reason it works. In interviewing beeks that are claiming success with various methods, I find this to be true. Many who claim that such and such is controlling mites, answer, upon further probing, that they are also using additional proven treatments, which they had not taken into account. Non scientists (and some scientists) often set up trials with too many variables, then interpret the results to support their favorite claim. Testing one variable at a time is slow and tedious, and you may lose colonies. But it gives clear results. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:22:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Organic foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 03:34:58 -0500, Brian Fredericksen wrote: >>Have you looked at their hives and done tests? > >fine don't believe me...why should I care ? ... >I'll stake my reputation on the claim of no mites and no AFB It seems to me Bob's question is extremely fair, and I think any of us would be a fool to trust in such mite-free pockets on the basis of the information you gave us. Have you tested the hives??? And why should we care if you stake your bee-l cyberspace reputation on a claim that can't be verified in a nondisclosed location. I don't believe you or disbelieve you. You just haven't given us enough basis to form any useful conclusions. So, to answer your question, why should you care if we believe you, I ask: if you don't care if we believe you, what's your point in telling us? >please read this article (link below) and tell me organic is an idealistic notion... from the article: "Currently, an eight-ounce jar of honey retails for $11 on the Web, $10 to $16 at Hawaii stores, and $20 in New York City." $20-$40/lb honey is entirely about "idealistic notions". And it's the furthest thing from "sustainable." Unfortunately, "organic" is far too often mostly about taking advantage of ignorant, paranoid people with too much money. There might be some Robin Hood-esque allure to that if the guy selling the honey weren't himself a lawyer. Reading about that kind of "organic" makes me want to go to Walmart and pay 99 cents for a genetically modified hamburger seasoned with MSG and artificial growth hormones and topped with "honey" sauce made of HFCS. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:26:41 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Organic Foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit with regards to essential oils and fgmo, there is an article in todays boston globe detailing evidence that some essential oils (or their components) act as hormones. clearly, if this is the case, they are not the "soft" or "inert" substances we assume them to be. deknow http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/diseases/articles/2007/01/31/oil s_may_cause_breast_growth_in_boys?mode=PF Oils may cause breast growth in boys By Jeff Donn, Associated Press Writer | January 31, 2007 BOSTON --Lavender and tea tree oils found in some shampoos, soaps and lotions can temporarily leave boys with enlarged breasts in rare cases, apparently by disrupting their hormonal balance, a preliminary study suggests. While advising parents to consider the possible risk, several hormone experts emphasized that the problem appears to happen infrequently and clears up when the oils are no longer used. None of those interviewed called for a ban on sales. The study reported on the condition, gynecomastia, in three boys ages 4, 7 and 10. They all went back to normal when they stopped using skin lotions, hair gel, shampoo or soap with the natural oils. It's unclear how often this problem might crop up in other young children. These plant oils, sometimes called "essential oils," are added to many health-care products, usually for their scent. The oils are sometimes found in other household products or sold in purer forms. Tea tree oil is sometimes used in shampoos for head lice. The suspected effect in this study is blamed on some chemical within the oils that the body processes like estrogen, the female hormone that promotes breast growth. The findings were being reported Thursday in the New England Journal of Medicine. The federally funded study came out of the University of Colorado and the environmental health branch of the National Institutes of Health. The findings were first released last year at a science meeting. The three boys were brought to their doctors with overdeveloped breasts that looked like those of girls in early puberty. They were sore in one case. For each boy, doctors could tie the problem only to their use over several months of the natural-oil products. The researchers suspected that the oils might be upsetting the boys' hormonal balance. So they did a series of laboratory tests to check how these oils work within human cells. The oils appeared to mimic estrogen and block the male hormone androgen. On product labels, the oils sometimes are listed by their scientific names: Lavandula angustifolia (lavender oil) and Melaleuca alternifolia (tea tree oil). Such products do not require government approval to be sold unless they make specific health claims. Marijuana and soy products also have been linked to gynecomastia. Dr. Clifford Bloch, a hormone specialist in Greenwood Village, Colo., who treated the three boys, recommended that parents "be cautious" with such products, especially for prolonged use. "I would not give these products to my children," he said in an interview. Bloch said he also suspects the oil played a role in a handful of young girls he saw for a similar condition, including a 17-month-old whose parents were washing her bottles with a lavender-scented soap. Others sounded less worried. "It takes very little estrogen to cause gynecomastia in a young child," said Dr. Richard Auchus, a University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center hormone expert who knew of the study findings. "If they're getting it for a brief period of time, that really shouldn't cause long-term problems." Also, the research did not pinpoint any specific estrogen-like compounds in the oils or look for them in a range of products. Chemist Steven Dentali, at the industry group American Herbal Products Association, said that warning people to avoid such oils "is premature without the additional basic research needed to bolster the case that the issue here is both real and significant." Gynecomastia is very common in boys during the hormonal changes of puberty. But it also occurs as a rare condition in younger boys, men, and girls before puberty. Bloch, the study doctor, said it's unknown if such oils could hurt women with estrogen-fed breast tumors. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:56:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Do you really know what essential oils do in a beehive -certainly not organic IMPOV MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Since deknow posted this on the organiclist I am bringing it here to see if it qualifies for discussion also. But now relative to BEES and poor drone/queen mating FWIW. This is one of the reasons, why the first paragraph on the organic site homepage is so strict. ALL treatments don't belong in a beehive. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby from today's boston globe: http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/diseases/articles/2007/01/31/oil s_may_cause_breast_growth_in_boys?mode=PF Oils may cause breast growth in boys By Jeff Donn, Associated Press Writer | January 31, 2007 BOSTON --Lavender and tea tree oils found in some shampoos, soaps and lotions can temporarily leave boys with enlarged breasts in rare cases, apparently by disrupting their hormonal balance, a preliminary study suggests. While advising parents to consider the possible risk, several hormone experts emphasized that the problem appears to happen infrequently and clears up when the oils are no longer used. None of those interviewed called for a ban on sales. The study reported on the condition, gynecomastia, in three boys ages 4, 7 and 10. They all went back to normal when they stopped using akin lotions, hair gel, shampoo or soap with the natural oils. It's unclear how often this problem might crop up in other young children. These plant oils, sometimes called "essential oils," are added to many health-care products, usually for their scent. The oils are sometimes found in other household products or sold in purer forms. Tea tree oil is sometimes used in shampoos for head lice. The suspected effect in this study is blamed on some chemical within the oils that the body processes like estrogen, the female hormone that promotes breast growth. The findings were being reported Thursday in the New England Journal of Medicine. The federally funded study came out of the University of Colorado and the environmental health branch of the National Institutes of Health. The findings were first released last year at a science meeting. The three boys were brought to their doctors with overdeveloped breasts that looked like those of girls in early puberty. They were sore in one case. For each boy, doctors could tie the problem only to their use over several months of the natural-oil products. The researchers suspected that the oils might be upsetting the boys' hormonal balance. So they did a series of laboratory tests to check how these oils work within human cells. The oils appeared to mimic estrogen and block the male hormone androgen. On product labels, the oils sometimes are listed by their scientific names: Lavandula angustifolia (lavender oil) and Melaleuca alternifolia (tea tree oil). Such products do not require government approval to be sold unless they make specific health claims. Marijuana and soy products also have been linked to gynecomastia. Dr. Clifford Bloch, a hormone specialist in Greenwood Village, Colo., who treated the three boys, recommended that parents "be cautious" with such products, especially for prolonged use. "I would not give these products to my children," he said in an interview. Bloch said he also suspects the oil played a role in a handful of young girls he saw for a similar condition, including a 17-month-old whose parents were washing her bottles with a lavender-scented soap. Others sounded less worried. "It takes very little estrogen to cause gynecomastia in a young child," said Dr. Richard Auchus, a University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center hormone expert who knew of the study findings. "If they're getting it for a brief period of time, that really shouldn't cause long-term problems." Also, the research did not pinpoint any specific estrogen-like compounds in the oils or look for them in a range of products. Chemist Steven Dentali, at the industry group American Herbal Products Association, said that warning people to avoid such oils "is premature without the additional basic research needed to bolster the case that the issue here is both real and significant." Gynecomastia is very common in boys during the hormonal changes of puberty. But it also occurs as a rare condition in younger boys, men, and girls before puberty. Bloch, the study doctor, said it's unknown if such oils could hurt women with estrogen-fed breast tumors. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:02:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Munson Subject: Re: Organic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To Brian and others, Yes there are at least two enclaves free of varroa that I am aware of in = North America. This is according to the Provincial Apiculture Branch = here in British Columbia, Canada. One is the Powell River Bee District, = just north of Vancouver, Canada. The second is the Bulkley-Nechako/ = Kitimat-Stikine Bee District, located in the northwest corner of BC, = adjacent to and below the Alaska Panhandle. However, it should be noted that both of these areas are mite free as a = result of a combination of geographic isolation and ongoing quarantine = efforts. In fact, we have just this spring discovered varroa in the far = eastern portion of the second district mentioned. It is assumed that now = that the mites have breached the height of land that is thought to have = prevented their westward migration, they will spread through the rest = of the district through natural means, swarming, robbing, etc. I mention this because I find Brians reference to the Hawaiian producers = business somewhat misleading, or perhaps just not relevant to a = discussion of beekeeping in most of the world where Bee-L's subscribers = do business. Hawaiis geographic isolation has so far offered beekeepers = there the opportunity to raise bees free of varroa. I suspect that most = Hawaiian producers would encounter the same challenges if, and some say = when (think New Zealand) varroa breaches their defenses. Rob Munson. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:33:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: USDA Certified Organic Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings Last February Bill Truesdell wrote in Bee-L: >There are no USDA standards that describe organic honey that have been approved. Now, honey is being sold as "USDA Certified Organic Honey" Can anyone point me to a description of what the actual standards are for producing organic honey in the US? Peter Borst -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:01:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic Foundation In-Reply-To: <001d01c7461c$e41b2000$0400a8c0@NOTEBOOK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Marron wrote: > > On Semantics: > > Most of us that try to protect our hives without the harder pesticides refer > to Fluvalinate, Cumophos and Amitraz as "chemicals". Terramyacin as well. > You knew that Bill. > > I have no issue with those who do not use things like cumophos, since I do not and will not. My guess that most of the current problems stem from that one chemical with prolonged use and not changing foundation. Unfortunately, the problem is not just semantics but the use of inflammatory words to separate one practice from another. A pesticide kills pests. When I go into my mostly organic seed sellers catalog the pesticide section is called "plant protection and pest control", but the items are chemicals that kill pests. It is obvious why the word pesticides is not used even though that is exactly what they are. I have noted here before that many organic pesticides are "harder" pesticides than some "chemical" pesticides. FGMO is not something found in honey, but the harsh chemicals, oxalic and formic acid, are. So which is "natural" or organic? The substance not found in the hive or the ones that are? My first issue here is the use of one "mild" pesticide in a hive and calling that "organic" or "chemical free" when it is not, especially if it does change the "chemical composition" of the wax and honey. At least I can label my honey "fat free". The second is that small cell is implied to be the reason for success while FGMO is applied to control mites. It is a given that FGMO with screened bottoms is a way to control mites, depending on the location and the number of applications. It knocks them down. It does not kill them. There are many other treatments that do the same thing including wintergreen oil and tobacco or sumac smoke. It cannot be said here that cell size is the reason for the control of mites. It is the pesticide, in this case, FGMO. Actually, the problem here is not semantics, but truth. Bill Truesdell (who is fully organic from head to toe, except for salts and the like which are inorganic, but that is just semantics.) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:56:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic Foundation In-Reply-To: <01ee01c745e9$b4ea02c0$0500000a@ari71aa1cf24c5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ari, This is a great post about foundations and AFB for not being harmful, and goes back to Wedmore's writings, and even early Dadant writings, and A.I.Roots, on the subject matter on how to process beeswax from deadout colonies and save the wax for reusage. Only problem is in today's world the processes are not taught much if at all anymore for waterbathing old combs and doing, and making own clean foundations. Best Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:37:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Organic Foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I asked for an education and I got one. Thank you kindly. I guess Commercial foundation makers don't irradiate. I think my source is reading this and leaving me to turn slowly in the wind. Correct me again if I need it but wax melts at 140 degrees or so. Boiling frames doesn't kill AFB. Perhaps the wax is brought to a higher temperature and held there? I seem to remember that it takes 50 spores (of the thousands produced by one infected cell) to infect a bee. If you got AFB from foundation, would you know? I think Ari, you have the proper analysis, it's there but entrapped. I suspect there a lot of it there. It makes a good case for melting down often and renewing frames. Dee: Thanks for the Lavender story. I have already removed anything that smells from the bathroom and have traded the deodorizer for one with a neutral base. One can't be too careful. I have no boys around but one can't be too careful. I already have a breasty tendency. Thymol kills mites and it's in Listerine mouthwash. Out it goes. I had some tea tree oil for my toenails. They were getting soft. Out it went. I take the point that materials derived from natural sources are chemicals too. Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:55:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Organic foundation In-Reply-To: <45C1E62B.9020002@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > > Two observations. FGMO is a chemical so he is not "chemical free". Don apparently makes a distinction between chemicals like FGMO and the nasty stuff the EPA has approved for use in bee hives. Purists like Dee (and I say that with nothing but the greatest respect for her beliefs) don't discriminate between good chemicals and bad chemicals, but between good treatments and bad treatments. And of course, there are no good treatments :) > Second. If small cell works, why does he need to use FGMO? You'd have to ask him. > If you look back in the archives, this is a common thread- I do this > thing and it works but BTW I do this too. Generally it is the latter > that is the reason it works. Yes Bill, it is a common thread, here and elsewhere. So in Don's case, to what should we attribute his apparent success? Small cell or FGMO? :) George- ---------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:52:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Organic foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >George Fergusson wrote: >Second. If small cell works, why does he need to use FGMO? Hello George! I don't think it was determined that he NEEDED to use FGMO’S. I understand that some like to use treatments with small cell because they 'think it gives them some type of additional advantage'. This in no way suggests that the honeybees actually NEEDED the FGMO‘s treatments, only that the beekeeper made this decision to do so. Annual requeening, over use of treatments, Illegal treatments are other examples of things some beekeepers do even when they are not needed, believing that it gives them an additional advantage. IMO, If someone is regressed their bees and still found that they needed to use treatments, I would be suspicious of an underlying cause for this such as bad breeding, bad management practices, OR just that the beekeeper is being overly cautious trying to gain an 'additional advantage' some think they need to do in order to succede. Remember, not to treat small cell as many attempt to do with treatments. It is not a replacement for good management practices, it is only one part to be included in the over all system of good management. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle EcologicalBeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:16:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Organic foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit George Fergusson wrote: >Yes Bill, it is a common thread, here and elsewhere. So in Don's case, >to what should we attribute his apparent success? Small cell or FGMO? :) Hello George! I would attribute the success small cell and good management practices. I have talked with Don on occasion, (BTY, Don’s about the nicest man in beekeeping) he has an excellent management and breeding strategy, but I feel personally that his use of FMGO as he described ‘very minimal’ is probably not necessary. But as a breeder, I believe he may just be being overly cautious wanting to be sure he has bees and queens ready for the customers, and not quite ready for the final step to no treatments just yet. Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:48:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Organic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joe & All, Joe said: >I would attribute the success small cell and good management practices. Possibly but his use of FGMO & essential oils makes the above suspect. Especially if done on a regular basis. Especially if his FGMO is laced with thymol ( common practice these days). My research done with a large number of Russian and varroa tolerant lines of bees involved zero treatment of any kind. The reason only around 12 hives are left and those are survivors but not very productive. Many which use both Russian and varroa tolerant lines also TREAT. Why they waste their money I am not sure. When you treat you can't even select a correct breeder queen. I NEVER saw a Russian,varroa tolerant or smr hybrid hive I could not find varroa or tracheal mites in in fall. Dee Lusby will tell you you can find varroa in her hives but not a problem. Dann Purvis will say you can find varroa in his lines. Charlie Harper will say you can find varroa in his Russian bees. Varroa once they arrive will not be controlled completely even with choumaphos or fluvalinate. The truly varroa tolerant bee will carry a varroa load but will handle the load. I have spent weeks talking to the worlds best researchers and they have formed my opinion. I found tracheal mites in my Russian bees but NEVER an infestation. Varroa in every hive but if pure Russian/Russian they handled varroa with no sign of parasitic mite syndrome. Russian and varroa tolerant bees are as Martha Stewart would say "A good thing". Sure there are points about the above bees we do not care for but NEVER the concept. The answer to varroa in my opinion lies in the varroa tolerant bee. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:30:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: USDA Certified Organic Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The certification houses QAI and Oregon Tilth web sites have more useful info then the USDA livestock guideline. There are other certification houses in the US but the 2 I've listed have the most credibility in the natural and organic food distribution & consumer circles. http://www.qai-inc.com/6_1_0_0.php http://www.qai-inc.com/pdfs/Apiary_companion.pdf http://www.tilth.org/ http://www.ams.usda.gov/nosb/archives/livestock/wildanimals.html http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/NOP/standards/ProdHandReg.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:27:57 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I want to see if I can infuse traits found in the perfered 2001 stock into > the woodland bees, this to create another repository of genetics with > traits I prefer that I can draw from if need be. Curious, what traits, and how consistent are they from colony to colony? Also how do you figure to infuse these traits into the woodland bees? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:32:44 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The feral comb, with one exception, from the brood nest > area has averaged 5,0 mm. That's about 0,1 mm less than my Pierco > frames. Is Pierco making 5.10mm foundation now, then? (5.1 - 0.1 = 5.0). Last Pierco I measured was 5.25mm. FWIW, I found that to be an ideal size cell. Maybe 0.05mm large, but closer than anything else I've tried. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:39:20 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: OA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Can anyone point out error in my logic? The logic is prolly OK. The assumptions are generally where theories go wrong IMO. ARS has a free program called VarroaPop which can be downloaded. Also we have discussed various models, including at least on online form here in the past. A quick search of the archives should turn these discussions up. They were fairly exhaustive, as I recall. Sorry I can't do it for you since I am not connected to the 'net at the moment I am writing this. (Maybe Aaron should change the tagline to include a pointer the archives or mention they are at the address mentioned there, since many don't seem to know about them). -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:50:14 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Organic Foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > No one has a proven case of AFB from foundations. Not even the trials > where foundation was made only from the frames with full of AFB larva come > up with a deceased colony. See the archives. This is a perennial fallacy. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:07:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic Foundation In-Reply-To: <45C25532.10900@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill writes: The second is that small cell is implied to be the reason for success while FGMO is applied to control mites. It is a given that FGMO with screened bottoms is a way to control mites, depending on the location and the number of applications. It knocks them down. It does not kill them. There are many other treatments that do the same thing including wintergreen oil and tobacco or sumac smoke. It cannot be said here that cell size is the reason for the control of mites. It is the pesticide, in this case, FGMO. Reply: Bill, you are right in that those doing half-? small cell, and saying it is the small cell, when it is other stuff they are still crutched to, is not small cell control. For when you modify and change what is suggested process/field mangement to do with zero treatments,and change the parameters of what you are doing and how........you have changed the game and therefore are into another one. Same with talkers and doers, and fence splitters. This is why those into wanting to do treatments on the organicbeekeepers discussion list are continuously asked to leave and go elsewhere, normally going to beesource.com where discussion to them is not restraining for so-called natural treatments of acids and essential oils, and that is sad in a way, but more for discussion in a way also. Yet those going zero treatments is growing and it is being physically done, and the work isn't hard, just labor consuming in first years. Regards to you, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:48:33 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Organic Foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Most of us that try to protect our hives without the harder pesticides > refer > to Fluvalinate, Cumophos and Amitraz as "chemicals". Terramyacin as well. Careful use of language and understanding of words, and respect for the accepted dictionary meaning is important if people are to understand one another and reach agreement. What are the dictionary and encyclopedia entries under "chemical"? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:54:54 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Organic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Yes Bill, it is a common thread, here and elsewhere. So in Don's case, > to what should we attribute his apparent success? Small cell or FGMO? :) Maybe neither, obviously. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:03:19 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the rundown, Joe, and the background. Sounds like an interesting project. > did I measure cell sizes,,,, the ferals that assess well enough to keep > generally run between 4.9 and 5.1 tops for my area. Curious. Have you done morphometrics on them to ascertain their probable origin? Also, if those are the best, what percentage of the total would you estimate them to be? As an note, we don't generally see those measurements around here. In fact I have never found any natural comb that size. Adony did a lot of close inspection up our way and is an acute observer. Any comments, Adony? (...Medhat?) allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:03:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: No Varroa (was Organic foundation) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1-Feb-07, at 3:34 AM, Brian Fredericksen wrote: > > this is not that unheard eh? Hawaii has no varroa and I would not > be suprised that somewhere > else in North America a few isolated pockets exist. > Thunder Bay region in Northwestern Ontario Canada have neither Varroa nor Tracheal mites Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W (1600 km by road to Thunder bay) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:20:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic foundation In-Reply-To: <45C26FE4.1050701@sweettimeapiary.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe writes: OR just that the beekeeper is being overly cautious trying to gain an 'additional advantage' some think they need to do in order to succede. Reply: To me it is still a mental problem most have to overcome that they can actually do it (the field work successfully), and then proceed, with the hardest part of getting off completely of all doping treatments and putting that part of beekeeping behind them. It takes a strong person to just say no, when all around are saying it cannot be done and constantly hammering at you to do something so they (ones telling you to treat) don't feel like they are wrong. But treatments in the end will not be used for long-haul control and sooner or later that will come to light for general industry usage path again. Sincerely, Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:27:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic Foundation In-Reply-To: <006f01c74651$a097d9b0$0400a8c0@NOTEBOOK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick: I take the point that materials derived from natural sources are chemicals too. Reply: Yes they are, and many times with greater killing power then normal chemicals used. But materials derived from natural sources and changed to me are no longer natural like thymol from thyme for instance. Change and isolate the one part and use it seperately you have changed the game, and that isn't then natural, especially when applied in the dosages used by man. REgards, Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 23:10:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic Foundation In-Reply-To: <006f01c74651$a097d9b0$0400a8c0@NOTEBOOK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick writes: Perhaps the wax is brought to a higher temperature and held there? Reply: Yes it is in water bath, and after holding for several hours it is pressed out (10-12 hours minimum holding temp after jacking to high heat for about 12-15 minutes or so before backing off heat and holding), but it gets the job done and much comb wax saved. Also it is a good way to process slumgum and save much wax left from inefficient solar wax melters (50% not uncommon salvaged from slumgum). Walter T. Kelly still sells the wax presses for this purpose by the way and they are not really hard to use. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:21:17 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Is Pierco making 5.10mm foundation now, then? (5.1 - 0.1 = 5.0). Last Pierco I measured was 5.25mm. I was recalling from memory what Nick Lissman (of Pierco) wrote me about their cell size. I should measure it! Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:19:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Breeding from tolerant bees In-Reply-To: <000701c7466c$448f4200$2abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I am replying to a post of Bob Harrison and I have changed the subject line from Organic foundation. > My research done with a large number of Russian and varroa tolerant lines of > bees involved zero treatment of any kind. The reason only around 12 hives > are left and those are survivors but not very productive. OK, you have 12 survivors... Now cross and re-cross all of these and select those that both survive and produce more honey. Repeat the process over several generations. OK it requires work and several seasons, but you will get there in the end. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 07:47:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: USDA Certified Organic Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings A very brief look at the guidelines available immediately point to great inconsistencies. A little grade school math will show you that version one expects you to monitor 13 square miles around the apiary while version two expects you to know everything that is going on within 50 square miles of each apiary. 6.11.2. Forage. Bees from which organic honey and other products are harvested shall have access to forage produced in accordance with organic standards, provided that the hives are located on certified land and are not within 2 miles of a sanitary landfill, incinerator, power plant, golf course, town or city, crops sprayed with prohibited substances, genetically modified crops, or other sources of contamination, as described in the Organic Livestock Plan approved by the certification agent. The minimum distance may be increased by the certification agent, if deemed necessary, on a case by case basis. (Organic Trade Association 2003) 1. Forage Requirements NOSB 205.240(d)&(e) You should maintain current certificates for all organically managed land on which bees will forage. In addition, documentation should show that surrounding forage areas, up to a radius of 4 miles from the colony location, comply with NOP wild crop requirements. Specifically, forage areas must be verified to have no prohibited substances applied for a period of 3 years preceding the start of honey flow. In addition, possible sources of contamination such as golf courses, landfills, and industrial facilities should not be located within 4 miles of the colony. (Copyright Quality Assurance International, Inc. 2001) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 07:47:39 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Going Zero Treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Yet those going zero treatments is growing and it is being > physically done, and the work isn't hard, just labor > consuming in first years. That is true. Other things to consider before committing are 1.) there is no guarantee of success; 2.) several apparently good years may be followed by a wipe-out; 3.) there is no guarantee of a crop with bees that resist varroa (AFAIK, no known example of a clear-cut commercial success has yet been presented to show it can be done). 4.) going to pollination or chasing crops may result in an overload of parasites or disease that cannot be handled without resorting to chemical controls; 5.) recovery from any setbacks may be slow, or impossible, especially if you depend on bees for a living and you run out of money; 6.) you are very limited in where you can obtain new stock; 7.) add your own sobering thoughts here... In skydiving they say there are old skydivers and bold skydivers, but no old, bold skydivers. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:13:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: USDA Certified Organic Honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > > Now, honey is being sold as "USDA Certified Organic Honey" > > Actually it was being sold as USDA organic back when I posted. A Hawaiian company was labeling their honey that way and they were correct to do so. I am not an expert in this so gladly yield the podium for those who are and equally accept correction. Here is how I understand it from reading the law. The problem is in the USDA standard. It is a general standard for organic produce. As each commodity comes under its own standard, then that commodity must meet that (sometimes) more stringent standard. I have not been following the honey standard, but the problem was between the "purists" and the "practical" (read commercial). So, even if there is no standard for honey, as long as you meet the general standard for organic, you can label it as the law specifies. If you trace through Brian's post you will see that there are certification agencies but that each has its own standard for honey, since there is no USDA standard. So you can get certified by the groups noted, or you can meet the USDA general standard. I would have to go back to the USDA law to see the wording but there is different label wording depending on how far you go and what you are doing. Plus, some might be mis-labeling their product. It can get confusing. So you can have "organic" honey that can meet the lax to stringent standards. If done properly, it will be labeled differently, but that will not register with the consumer who only sees "organic" and "USDA". Generally, the organic people do not like the way the USDA is doing their job but the commercial people love it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:07:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Feral bees In-Reply-To: <20070202.042158.8332.1825951@webmail24.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar, Allen & all I have Pierco samples of both 5.20 mm and 5.25 mm Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:18:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit allen dick wrote: >Curious, what traits, and how consistent are they from colony to colony? Hello Allen! In these early days of the feral recovery, results from assessments on captured ferals from different areas, suggests to me that breeding populations of honeybees can adapt traits specific to the micro habitats in which they live, and develop varroa resistance mechanisms adapted from resistance traits available in that breeding population to the degree and order in which they these traits are prevalent and or effective in relation to the environment factors found in the habitat in witch they live. So I am beginning to look at each feral assessed as ‘representing the attributes of the breeding population inhabiting a micro habitat’, as well as ‘representative of the genetic attributes of the individual colony’. Traits in these ferals seem to only be consistent withen a breeding population and can change from one breeding population to the next. Hygienic behavior and smaller cell sizes seem prevalent in most ferals assessed. But my interest is on traits that seem to stand out being much more prevalent in one breeding population and sometimes non existent in another. Traits identified so far existing in some populations and not the other, being the most obvious are: * Intense Grooming Behavior identified in a specific farmland feral population in 2001 and * High Brood Viability together with * Enhanced Foraging Abilities identified in a population of woodland ferals in 2005. Starting with grooming behavior, I found this behavior easily passed on to daughter colonies, while other ferals outside the line do NOT exhibit this behavior. The particular grooming behavior I am still in the process of studying because it does not meet the description of allogrooming previously described by Seeley. So experiments this year will be focused on filming an actual grooming of a mite, as a means to verify the existence and if there be a purpose to the trait. Because this line are my best performers I’m trying to find the reason why that is, so I am looking all things that stand out in this line. In 2005, I began to notice that woodland ferals were routinely and rapidly out pacing other swarms in growth and foraging abilities during 18 weeks of initial assessments, starting with ‘colony initiation’ throughout the first seasons ‘growth stage‘. So I am actively targeting woodland ferals and focusing assessments of all existing and new stock on brood viability and foraging abilities. It is possible that woodland ferals have a highly developed foraging strategy. Better able to scout and survey food source patches covering a vast area due to the need to routinely forage several miles from the nest, and the pool reconnaissance of its foragers to focus foraging force on a few small but high quality patches found within the vast foraging area. But the fact that they out compete in initial assessments suggests a honeybee that is highly competitive and potentially better acclimated, both traits of high interest to myself.. >Also how do you figure to infuse these traits into the woodland bees? The plan is to place a drone source colony in the area, and potentially releasing a swarm in the area. I don’t know if it will work, but if it is a useful trait, I suspect it will succeed in several years and become prevalent in that population of ferals. If it is not a useful trait, I suspect it will fad away in that population. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle EcologicalBeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:15:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Joe wrote In these early days of the feral recovery, results from assessments on captured ferals from different areas, suggests to me that breeding populations of honeybees can adapt traits specific to the micro habitats in which they live, Joe, keep up your observations. We need a thousand more of you : ) I imagine that we will start seeing the effects of kairomonal changes by the bees that you will not be able to observe directly, but rather indirectly by lower varroa reproduction. I'm sure the bees will come up with combinations of mechanisms that we haven't even dreamed of. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:25:17 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Breeding from tolerant bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > OK, you have 12 survivors... Now cross and re-cross all of these and > select those that both survive and produce more honey. Repeat the process > over several generations. OK it requires work and several seasons, but you > will get there in the end. That's the theory, but lots of things can happen along the way. Many have tried, and many are trying, but few have arrived there, and the permanence of their success is still to be proven. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:23:01 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>Is Pierco making 5.10mm foundation now, then? (5.1 - 0.1 = 5.0). > Last Pierco I measured was 5.25mm. > > I was recalling from memory what Nick Lissman (of Pierco) wrote me > about their cell size. I should measure it! I should add, since it is not obvious to many, is that the medium depth Pierco frame with foundation built in has a larger size cell than the one piece deep frames do. From talking to Nick some time back, I'm not sure he knows what size his cells are. He was just lucky to get good advice and make standard brood frames with an (IMO) optimal cell size. For some reason, the mediums were later made to a more standard US size. Can't recall. Are they 5.3mm? (FWIW, some people can glance at a piece of comb and guess the cell size within a millimetre, while many (most) can measure and still not get it right). allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:28:29 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Here's and old url for downsizing in someone elses words > > http://www.beesource.com/eob/4dot9/index.htm As previously mentioned, the story seems incomplete. I'm still waiting for the "Rest of the Story". Was this effort a success, or a DNF? Anybody? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 13:00:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic Foundation In-Reply-To: <006f01c74651$a097d9b0$0400a8c0@NOTEBOOK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick writes: I take the point that materials derived from natural sources are chemicals too. Reply: Yes they are and when isolated out and used are wrong, for there is no difference then between essential oils and acids from what other consider harsher chemicals, for all are found on this planet and thus in nature. So ban one you ban all for problem solving I would say, but few seem able to do that, and besides what are they treating, that if bees were put back in scenario prior to troubles starting, would the troubles just clear up on their own, which shows what?....wrongful path necessitating the treatments rather then redoing? Dee- ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:10:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit allen dick wrote: >Curious. Have you done morphometrics on them to ascertain their probable >origin? Hello Allen! I am interested in morphing the bees if I can find who does this service. An internet friend offered to morph these bees a few years back, but haven’t taken up the offer yet. Also, if those are the best, what percentage of the total would you >estimate them to be? Of the ferals collected over 4 counties, based on assessments of ‘actual colony performance’, that is NO feeding, NO treatments of any kind, side by side, single yard "comparative assessments". Probably around 80 percent fail on their own during the first 3 years. These are failures ranging from, failure of a swarm in ’colony initiation’ failure of swarm to ’thrive during the first 18 week growth stage’ or ‘succumbing to mites or other brood disease during the first 2 to 3 years‘ or ‘succumbing to my culling from comparative performance selection during the 2 to 3 years. Of all the ferals collected per season, I would bet that less than 10% are what I would call outstanding performance. By outstanding performance (as ambiguous as the term is), I am meaning colonies that out perform 'all others' by a good margin in assessments for that particular season, and also tend not to show any stress from fluctuating environmental conditions such as summer drought or winter, while others show stress these times or fail altogether. To illustrate the occasionally rarity of finding very exceptional colonies, I might go a year or two without stumbling on a feral that I regard as having very exceptional performance. So as Randy Oliver mentioned, I believe they can be easily overlooked if not assessed properly. Or they may exist right under our noses and sometimes be mitigated to blending in as “part of the usual pac” should treatments be applied, making assessment of “actual colony performance“ needed to identify these exceptional colonies a very difficult task. What is interesting, is that when the percentage totals of exceptional performers are looked at from a perspective which categorizes them to the particular habitat from which they were obtained from. Numbers appear to be reversed, with at least 80% to 90% of exceptional performers coming from woodlands, or remote type farmlands. Remembering now, getting a swarm call is highly dependant that there be “eyes” nearby to see the swarm to report it. So most swarms I've collected by far tend to be acquired from non remote areas that are near to human population zones. But it is still important to collect all swarms from all areas due to the possibility of stumbling onto exceptional genetics now and again, plus it’s allot of fun. :) Because it was only recently that I put 2 and 2 together and noticed that on average better performing honeybees coming from woodlands and remote areas, I have only just began to target these areas with swarm trapping and looking for traits residing in bees from these places. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle EcologicalBeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 17:05:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Organic foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: >Especially if done on a regular basis. Especially if his FGMO is laced with >thymol ( common practice these days). Hello Bob! I agree, using FGMO does make ones success with small cell suspect! And further more, even applying these things in a non regular basis effects varroa levels for several years, serving to disguise ‘actual colony performance‘. >I NEVER saw a Russian,varroa tolerant or smr hybrid hive I could not find >varroa or tracheal mites in in fall. Me either, and in the Spring also. IMO, we need to come to the realization that it is OK to see a few mites. In the spring, state inspectors are never satisfied until they have spent enough time in my colonies to spot a few mites. Required was the 10% inspected for my queen permit, but I was more than happy to let the State Apiarist inspect every colony! What I do NOT what to see is a colony exhibiting stress or pressure at the colony level or performance level because of the mites, a few mites and NO pressures I do not care much about. Dee Lusby will tell you you can find >varroa in her hives but not a problem. Dann Purvis will say you can find >varroa in his lines. Charlie Harper will say you can find varroa in his >Russian bees. You can find varroa in my bees also! It is wonderfully refreshing to see honest breeders admitting this fact, this is a credit to the industry! Yes Virginia, Mites can exist in out-performing colonies. :) >Varroa once they arrive will not be controlled completely even with >choumaphos or fluvalinate. Why do we have a zero tolerance for mites in the industry? IMO, Zero tolerance would be better off directed towards bad performing colonies. A goal of developing mite resistant colonies that keep varroa numbers to a level low enough so as to permit the colony to be productive and outperform is certainly good enough for me. Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:17:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? In-Reply-To: <02da01c746ce$080ceaa0$6500a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen: As previously mentioned, the story seems incomplete. I'm still waiting for the "Rest of the Story".Was this effort a success, or a DNF? Reply: Actually, Allen, I never called Miller to find out as many were into first step down, but then couldn't come up with the funds to go futher, and/or the desire to keep doing the field work needed as changing combs is no fun. But then others did continue. Also since pierco is the inbetween size and many are on that, many are halfway down now, unless they stopped. But then if they stopped and got recontaminated in the process then what is the worth now for the combs, for other factors are effecting the hives, and I have very verbally over the years said we lived with the bees okay, just didn't get production. But in saying this, if one is migratory and the production of honey etc is not a problem for consideration... for pollenation fees negate that out, then hives that live with the first step down might have kept many there..........for there is income in pollenation! So why don't you simply call and ask him? Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 19:35:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Chemicals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen: >Careful use of language and understanding of words, and respect for the >accepted dictionary meaning is important if people are to understand one >another and reach agreement. Dee: >there is no difference then between essential oils and >acids from what other consider harsher chemicals, for all >are found on this planet and thus in nature. Response: There is a very great difference. The key is NOT EVEN whether a substance is a "chemical" or not. As Allen says, you should understand what is meant by a chemical: generally, it is a product of chemistry. But if you want to call baking a cake chemistry, that's fine. The key issue in treatments is "what is the potential for harm". That is why substances have been selected that occur naturally in honey. Various organic acids and oils are already in honey. Of course, if these are concentrated they can become poisonous. Ordinary smoke is know to be one of the most hazardous substances you can make. The first identified occupational cancer was in chimney sweeps. But in small quantities, smoke is pleasant and harmless. Organisms have evolved the ability to to process and excrete all sorts of pollutants. Who will be harmed? If you can't prove that a substance is harmful when used in specific amounts, then it is a non-issue. Pure food and drug laws were established to test substances, determine the levels that can kill, levels that can harm, and levels that are harmless. In large quantities even drinking water can kill a person (as we all know); some poisonous chemicals, like sodium chloride, are actual required in small quantities for optimum health. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:31:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Organic foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:22:59 -0500, Eric Brown wrote: >$20-$40/lb honey is entirely about "idealistic notions". And it's the >furthest thing from "sustainable." Unfortunately, "organic" is far too >often mostly about taking advantage of ignorant, paranoid people with too >much money. There might be some Robin Hood-esque allure to that if the guy >selling the honey weren't himself a lawyer. Reading about that kind >of "organic" makes me want to go to Walmart and pay 99 cents for a >genetically modified hamburger seasoned with MSG and artificial growth >hormones and topped with "honey" sauce made of HFCS. > >Eric > So I gather you think this guy is ripping people off and making a fortune to boot? Do you have a concept of how food production has changed in this country in the last 3 decades? Do you have a concept of what the now legal definition of organic is for business? Maybe you like the Walmartization of the organic industry better....... There is a growing feeling in this country that the sorry state of our food production and associated obesity and diabetes etc is caused by the unrealistically low cost of food that is subsidized by US farm policy and a never ending corporate search for profits. Drawing my thoughts from Micheal Pollans new book the Omnivores Dilema there has been a unprecedented increase in processed corn and soybean byproducts consumption in the US diet since the 1970's. While companies laugh all the way to the bank my guess is 2/3 of our population has been hoodwinked into thinking they are getting "healthy" snacks, "natural" meat/poultry/dairy products that in reality contain a fraction of the nutrients they did 30 years ago. The fact is , is that real and or clean food is a becoming a relic of the past and as such commands higher prices in todays world. Please see a condensation of Micheal Pollans thinking published this week in the NYT's http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t.html? ex=1327640400&en=7c85a1c254546157&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss or search their site for the article titled Unhappy Meals Being able to jump through the stringent hoops of Organic Certification is not easy or the list would be long. Go to QAI or Oregon Tilth Web pages and see their client list and see how few apiaries are certified organic. I hear bellyaching all around that organic honey is a joke as honey is such a clean product. The fact is there is a contiuum of contamination from nasty to clean in the US food system and its impossible for a consumer to know what happened to their food or honey before they consumed it. At least with organic certification people have some reasonable expectation that their food is on the clean end of that continuum. The guy in Hawaii is somewhat isolated and runs a small operation producing a creamed varietal honey. My own plans involve a remote area that will not yield they same honey production as an ag region yard. So my expenses are high and I have a product that is hard to find. Basic economics says it aint going to be cheap. Whats wrong with a beekeeper making a decent living? Who decreed we can only be low paid wages? Geez man show me beekeeks who make what they think they should ? I don't get your disdain for this guy making out while doing what he loves? Is this not that the goal of most beekeepers who do it for a living? My guess is you're not doing bees for a living or you would be aware that profit is very very elusive in this business. Here this guy is a successful alternative model to the highly leveraged commercial guy who's competing with chinese honey. Citing our local Mpls newspaper the Star Tribune in an article today " In 2005, 1.8 million pounds of atrazine was sold in the state, said Yamin, and the chemical has been linked to reproductive and developmental problems in numerous animal studies. About 2.7 million pounds of acetochlor was sold in Minnesota that year, he said, and federal officials have labeled it a "likely human carcinogen." Chlorpyrifos, an insecticide that the Environmental Protection Agency banned for lawn use in 2001, is still used on crops and has been linked to brain and nervous-system problems" I bet most of us American beekepeers are surrounded by a cloud of Ag chemical useage, and this kind of statistic did not take into account industrial or home chem emmisions either. While I'm not suggesting the honey we collect in this kind of environment is unsafe to eat, it does not thrill me to be operating an apiary or living in this kind of environment. My point is honey collected from a pristine environment is special and getting ever more rare. In ancient history the pharohs and kings/queens ate the so called "best" honey. People with money will gladly spend it on something they feel is special. In addition to the notion of clean food etc people will also pay the money just to know they are supporting some guy who's out on a limb trying to do something different. It gets down to in the end you have some bees and you have a stack of bills to pay. Tell me please Eric how can I pay my bills and run a "clean" operation with minimal chems etc? Should I go out on a limb trying to go organic and sell it for $3.00/pound? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 20:29:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, pb said: > Various organic acids and oils are already in honey. Of course, if these are concentrated they can become poisonous. The ancient philosopher ,Paracelcus, adomonished that poisoning is a consequence of quantity,not substance. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 22:21:09 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Was this effort a success, or a DNF? > Actually, Allen, I never called Miller. ...many are halfway down now, unless they stopped. Halfway down would be what? 5.3, 5.2, 5.0, or ? > I have very verbally over the years said we lived with the bees okay, just > didn't get production. I'm not clear on exactly what you are saying here, Dee. Am I correct in reading this as referring to your operation, and that you managed to keep bees alive, but did not get production? If not, please clarify. > But in saying this, if one is migratory and the production of honey etc is > not a problem for consideration... for pollenation fees negate that out, > then hives that live with the first step down might have kept many > there..........for there is income in pollenation! So, if I read you right, people have gone to 5.2 or 5.25 (or ?) and been happy with the results, and not felt a need to go further? > So why don't you simply call and ask him? Well, I did not make the claim that this article demonstrated something it does not seem to. I simply read the article and tried to see what was supposed to be there. Then I mentioned that, as far as I could see, any proof of the point in question was entirely missing. Further, I think I can safely guess the answer without bothering the poor guy. He gave up, is my guess, and I'll bet most others reading this would guess the same. Am I wrong? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:34:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Am I correct in reading this as referring to your operation, and that you managed to keep bees alive, but did not get production? I realize the question is for Dee but will add my two cents worth about the search for varroa tolerant bees. I was very glad when I began my research into varroa tolerant bees I did not use all my hives. Only the amount I felt I could afford to lose production on.Certain traits are common to most varroa tolerant bees and in my opinion the Russian bee is the poster bee for those traits. Most shut down brood rearing at the slightest change in the weather, many are not prolific and many are hard to "trick into brood building" (yes trick is what commercial beekeepers do to get the populations needed for pollination and big honey flows). I believe in time varroa tolerant bees will be as productive as commercially available lines but right now I don't believe they are. My first experiments with daughters from my two SMR II breeder queens was pitiful. Production was out of the question with those bees. Even the F3 generation had poor brood viability. Zero production from 125 queens. Right now with most varroa tolerant bees you have to be willing to accept their traits in order to stop treatments. A trade off many hobby beekeepers are willing to make.but hard for those trying to survive in a very competitive bee business. I remember back in the fuel crunch of the 80's I bought a fuel regulator for the gas line on my truck. I was going to save fuel ! Which I did! Problem was I would floor the truck and barely had enough power to climb a hill. Needless to say I removed the chrome fuel regulator and it sits in my shop as a reminder of me not thinking things through. I should have known what the result of reducing the fuel line size in half would be! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:52:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, I could not reply off list because I did not have your home address. Chimney sweeps cancer was not from smoke but from the soot and creosote dusts from the chimney. Of course people die from smoke inhalation often. How much is too much for bees? Lionel -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:46:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Organic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organic HONEY should be an absolute. Honey bees inside a netted area could be forced to only visit flowers inside. Therefore it could be organic honey if this were the case. However, bees fly for long distances to get the nectar they make into honey. If someone has tossed a soft drink can and some drink still remains in the can, the bee will visit this can and carry this fluid back to the hive. If for no other reason, this would destroy the "organic" honey. Hunters will drink and leave cans in the woods. Don't think bees cannot find small amounts of sugars in small areas. I think that beekeepers could do as I think the oil companies have done, and get together and raise the price for local and specialty honeys. Someone could spread the word that this type of honey is in short supply and bingo, up, up, up. Store shelf honey will never fit in the same category. You will always have imported and artificial honey. Lionel -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 22:10:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Waggle wrote: I have only just began to target these areas with swarm trapping Joe, are you setting out swarm traps with lures in order collect colonies from remote areas? Randy oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 23:28:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: Organic foundation MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Munson" To: Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Organic foundation To Brian and others, Yes there are at least two enclaves free of varroa that I am aware of in North America. Was wondering when someone was going to mention "exposure". Well then it all over. Lets not confuse "mite free" with survival" Alden Marshall NH -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 12:39:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Feral bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Joe > I am interested in morphing the bees if I can find who does > this service. An internet friend offered to morph these bees > a few years back, but haven’t taken up the offer yet. It is not something that you can 'buy in as a service' because it is so heavily tied in with the records (breeding history and performance) from each individual colony. You can learn how to do this for yourself using a negative or slide scanner to generate the high definition images, then there are several alternative software packages that can do the rest of the process. You can download the software from... http://www.gbbg.net/downloads.html and others on... http://www.dave-cushman.net/computing/downloads.html http://www.dave-cushman.net/computing/lindownloads.html At the Gormanston summer course... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/gormanstonindex.html application form available at... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/gormreservation2007.html there is a morphometry workshop, you are welcome to bring 30, 50 or 90 bee samples that are suitably prepared... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/morphometric_sampling.html from each colony that you wish to test. Many of the most expert morphometricians will be on site and can guide/help you. I would suggest you get started on the learning curve as soon as possible, I know from personal experience that it is a bit tedious and as a result is easily 'put off to another time', but it does take a few years to fully understand some of the subtleties so the sooner you start the better. The tedium is less these days as we tend to use slide scanners rather than the 35 mm projectors that were the only way when I learned about the subject, but I would still recommend that you did the basic 'old fashioned' method a few times to start with as in doing so you will learn some of the mathematics that is behind the automatic scanner method and thus increase your understanding. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 07:17:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic foundation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > >> >> Drawing my thoughts from Micheal Pollans new book the Omnivores Dilema there has been a >> unprecedented increase in processed corn and soybean byproducts consumption in the US diet >> since the 1970's. While companies laugh all the way to the bank my guess is 2/3 of our population >> has been hoodwinked into thinking they are getting "healthy" snacks, "natural" meat/poultry/dairy >> products that in reality contain a fraction of the nutrients they did 30 years ago. >> >> The fact is , is that real and or clean food is a becoming a relic of the past and as such commands >> higher prices in todays world. >> We are moving rapidly from fact to ideology. One book does not represent the accumulated research of all science. Without reading the book, all you need to know is the shift from cane sugar to corn syrup probably has more to do with it than anything else. Pinning anything on soybeans it a bit much since most science shows soy to be a good food. (I just checked a review from the Washington Post, part of which reads: High-fructose corn syrup sweetens everything from juice to toothpaste. Even the alcohol in beer is corn-based. Corn is in everything from frozen yogurt to ketchup, from mayonnaise and mustard to hot dogs and bologna, from salad dressings to vitamin pills. "Tell me what you eat," said the French gastronomist Anthelme Brillat-Savarin, "and I will tell you what you are." We're corn.) Boy am I good. Most of these activist books start with something we can agree on, like corn syrup is bad, but it is the solution that causes problems. They leap from corn syrup to all of agriculture. Use a single data point. A fairly non-biased source like Consumer Reports which is not in any corporate pocket, tests all kinds of foods including meat and poultry for problems and finds both good and bad in both commercial and organic products. But it is the level of that good or bad that is important. We can test now and find contaminates that we were unable to detect in the past because they were in such small quantities. They were fine then and are fine now. If you want to go back to real organic farming, there are plenty of third world countries where that is practiced and you will die much earlier eating that "healthy" food. Can I make a modest request, that we keep the list closer to beekeeping than earnestly held beliefs that are more appropriate to other venues? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 07:13:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Varroa tolerant stock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: > the Russian bee is the poster bee for those traits.> > Most shut down brood rearing at the slightest change in the weather, many > are not prolific and many are hard to "trick into brood building" I'm sure noticing this very thing with my open-mated Russian x SMR queens this year. Huge difference between those started early in the season, and fed supplement in late summer, and those started later, and going into winter with smaller clusters and less stores. All from same mother. The early ones are 12+ frames going into almonds. The small later ones were sweet little clusters, but most were a waste of my time trying to get them to build up. There were a few exceptions, though. It appeared that there was a critical size for them to got into winter, and if below that size, there was no way to "trick" them into building up. > My first experiments with daughters from my two SMR II breeder queens was > pitiful. Production was out of the question with those bees. Ditto. My operation lost money for two years. Production is #1 requirement for commercial breeding programs, mite tolerance #2. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 10:08:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit randy oliver wrote: >Joe, are you setting out swarm traps with lures in order collect colonies >from remote areas? Hello Randy! Yes, lured traps! I will be doing more trap placement this season. I get allot of referrals from a local pest control company that is very pro honeybee. These swarms that citizens ‘see’ and report are fun to catch. But for some reason, many of these fail to thrive during assessments in comparison to the remote types that I collect, and I imagine many more go ‘unseen‘ and not reported. Prime remote areas, as I identify them are areas not near to commercial beekeeping, and bee prime forage habitat with abundant voids a MUST. On the link below I am working on a Feral Survey Part 1 ’Feral Honeybee Habitat Appraisal-2007’. The survey includes a grading scale, for the experimental purpose of assigning a ‘degree of remoteness’ to each collected feral to see if any patterns of performance evolve in the assessment process. The survey will obviously give the impression that most ferals reside in human populated areas, but where there are more eyes to see a swarm, this is to be expected. The survey can only be analyzed in a more complete form when it is viewed in conjunction with Feral Survey Part 2 ’Feral Colony Assessment Appraisal-2007’. Part 2 is intended to survey the level of performance of each feral starting with colony initiation, on thru 18 weeks of the growth stage. The surveys in conjunction, should show were the best ferals and bee habitats are located. http://www.stellarsurvey.com/response/s.aspx?u=8640 Best Wishes, Joe Waggle EcologicalBeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 10:24:15 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Corporate Corn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> Drawing my thoughts from Micheal Pollans new book the Omnivores Dilema >>> there has been a unprecedented increase in processed corn and soybean >>> byproducts consumption in the US diet since the 1970's. Obviously, there is something going on, and it would be obvious if we were no so immersed in it. >>> While companies laugh all the way to the bank my guess is 2/3 of our >>> population has been hoodwinked into thinking they are getting "healthy" >>> snacks, "natural" meat/poultry/dairy products that in reality contain a >>> fraction of the nutrients they did 30 years ago. My guess is that the amount of nutrients hasn't changed much, but rather that the nutrients have changed to favour simple carbohydrates and synthetic fats over fibre and vitamins. The fact that there is money in food processing guarantees that food processors will have many more advertisng, lobbying and "research" dollars to spend than the farmer who produces commodities. The resulting "research" has proven over and over that what are actually unhealthy choices are good for you, and the media, highly dependant on food processor money, pick up the theme. This is so endemic that beekeepers have to result to joining the trend, with research to prove honey is good, and a promotion board to compete with all the other BS out there. Don't kid yourself. The Honey Board's job is to spread manure. What we have to remember is that food promotion is not a new thing. The original food processors are the flour mills, and that they found that if they stripped much of the nutrition from grains to make an addictive, ultimately dangerous food which is predominantly just a simple starch (flour) from what started out being a healthy food, add a bit of mystique, and hire Norman Rockwell, they could make far more money than they could growing wheat. Advertising has convinced us that "Mom's apple pie and home-baked bread" are ideals, when, in fact, they have been the leading edge of a obesity epidemic and represent the road to diabetes. If you are overweight, thank an advertiser. > We are moving rapidly from fact to ideology. One book does not represent > the accumulated research of all science. Without reading the book.... They > leap from corn syrup to all of agriculture. Use a single data point. This is a problem. The author has a simple idea, (maybe it is correct, or at least part of the picture). That idea enough to fill a few paragraphs, but you can't usually sell a parqagraph. You have to pad it out into a book. > A fairly non-biased source like Consumer Reports which is not in any > corporate pocket... Hmmm. They appear very corporate themselves, and the the corporate mindset permeates the entire business and consumer world. > ...We can test now and find contaminates that we were unable to detect in > the past because they were in such small quantities... there are plenty of > third world countries where that is practiced and you will die much > earlier eating that "healthy" food. Good points, both, but I think that we may be confusing several issues here. > Can I make a modest request, that we keep the list closer to beekeeping > than earnestly held beliefs that are more appropriate to other venues? I'm sure we will, but BEE-L has traditionally let almost anything go a few rounds before closing the topic and this topic is far too important to simply ignore, AND it actually has a great deal to do with beekeeping (how and why we do things) and honey (what we produce, what we feed bees, and why we do it). The problem is that we are so totally immersed in and brainwashed by corporate myths and consumer psychology that we can no more see it than fish can see water. allen Opinions are Not Facts... -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 08:00:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? In-Reply-To: <001801c74744$477a63e0$29bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen: > Am I correct in reading this as referring to your operation, and that you managed to keep bees alive, but did not get production? Reply: Allen this has been gone over with you and others in the past and I have said it several times. In talking first regression down of which we did to the 5.0mm - 5.1mm mode coming off of 5.4mm in the beginning it looks good and you say, looks great for the bees. But in actuality it is a red herring FWIW as far as I am concerned for by year 8 it was close to back the other way that made us want to redo, and of course we did. By year 8 we were back to 50% losses and requeening spring and fall and knew we had only a certain amount of time to think through and retool again for that .1mm to .2mm change we did to try to get it right, realizing that things were complicated after studying all the various ways measuring combs had been changed for what we thought we originally had besides learning more in foundation making for the good and the bad part of it.Here suttleties meant a lot we found out. Course no one liked hearing that then, and then too we were told others might not agree with us fine tooling more. But with that much work in, hard as it was, and going down to break even with intermediate size after 8 years. We slip the sheet so to speak and just did it going then to 4.9mm and into the forbidden zone we were told to stay out of for top tolerance......... >From there on out we have come forward, though gates stopping at every turn we have tried to make FWIW..... So Keep the question you asked confined to the first step down............and those we had working relationships with knowing also, the SAME wall would hit others LATER. But then of course treatments can stave that off!! like ho ho, sure, my? Dee- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 11:52:34 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got to wondering about the language problem, and started reading and reflecting. At risk of being boring about this, the word "chemical" is a very interesting word and legitimately, it seems, means differing things to different people. One example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemicalhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical To those educated in the arts, the word has a different spin, and tends to refer to things that are synthesized or isolated from a "natural" object. Check out the dictionaries. They have a hard time with this word: A typical dictionary defines "chemical" in terms of "chemistry". See http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chemical and http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/en%3Achemistry, allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 12:37:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Organic foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 07:17:52 -0500, Bill Truesdell wrote: >We are moving rapidly from fact to ideology. One book does not represent >the accumulated research of all science. Without reading the book, all >you need to know is the shift from cane sugar to corn syrup probably has >more to do with it than anything else. >Can I make a modest request, that we keep the list closer to beekeeping >than earnestly held beliefs that are more appropriate to other venues? > Bill , ....Can I suggest that you read the reference(s) before commenting on the topic? Fact to ideology .....hmm and you never read one word? I provided 2 references, one online to make it easier for those who did not want to read the book. Also then how would YOU know if the topic is appropriate when you did not bother to fully comprehend it? Shooting from the hip which we all have probably done before just wastes bandwidth on the server eh? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 10:06:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa tolerant stock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, Randy said: > There were a few exceptions, though. The exceptions are the reason many of us keep searching. I lost my best exception queen this fall. I knew she was Russian/Russian because she was one of the 26 numbered inseminated queens I helped inseminate myself at Purvis Brothers apiaries in Georgia and hand carried back to Missouri. What amazed me about her was the huge amount of brood she produced, record honey production in a drought year and good brood viability. I waited a year too long to use her to create a hybrid bee. Dann Purvis keeps records of every queen he inseminates so perhaps I can raise her from the dead if Dann has still kept some of the first Russian/Russian Blue line stock released through Glenn Apiaries around. However maybe I should be looking to the future instead of looking back as looking back is kind of like trying to get back together with an X wife. Seldom works! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 11:29:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: HFCS (was Organic foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >High-fructose corn syrup sweetens everything from juice to toothpaste. HFCS is the subject of an ABJ article I just finished. Also the subject of recent studies by the Weslaco Bee lab presented to groups of the AHPA ( 2006)& ABF (2007). HFCS contains two sugars which shorten bees lives. In fact kill bees when spiked into syrup in certain doses (that can be found in off spec HFCS). The sugars: Stachyose & Raffinose These sugars ar not found in sucrose. This is NOT new news. The USDA-ARS told us of the problem back in the 70's from the research of Roy Barker at the Tucson Bee Lab. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 11:14:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: varroa tolerant bees (was Organic foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Alden & All, Alden said: > Lets not confuse "mite free" with survival" Excellent point! I might add that when ( notice I did not say *if*) the blood sucking new breed of varroa destructor slips into the Brian mite free zone the world for those beekeepers will change forever. Building an organic business on the notion the area will always be mite free does seem a bit risky. Many on the list know Terry Brown ( Australia) and I have become close friends ( talk weekly at times by phone) and Terry has came to visit me the last two summers (winter time down under). Articles about those visits in ABJ. The subject of many of our long conversations is VARROA. Terry realizes its not IF varroa will come to Australia but WHEN. Sooner or later a swarm with varroa will leave a ship and then the infestation will began. To prepare Terry Brown has been importing varroa tolerant Italian & Buckfast queens from Italy to incorporate into his breeding program. Italy has been fighting varroa almost a decade longer than the U.S.. On my advice Terry Brown has brought Dann Purvis (Purvis Brothers Apiaries) to Australia to head up a selection and instrumental insemination ( II)closed breeding program. Similar to Sue Cobey's and Dann's ( Dann learned II from Sue). Brought in thousands of dollars of new II equipment and has been teaching Terry's employees to do II. Beekeeping for the 21st. Century. I consider the Australian Bee import a good thing. Whenever you buy a package you are helping improve the worlds bees through the above methods. Something to think about. Australia has a strict import system. Australia will not allow the import of even our VSH or SMR queen stock. The reason they give is they do not trust even our DNA testing to assure our queens are AHB gene free . The not letting in queens from the U.S. through the import system was a blow to the improvement of the Australian queen line. Terry Brown was willing to invest the 4-5 thousand a queen ( the cost is paid even if the queen is killed during introduction or is a drone layer)to import the best queens to improve the line to *help*make varroa tolerant. However the Italy varroa tolerant line seems to improve the varroa tolerant qualities of the Australian line ( my personal testing) when sent into the U.S.. Ever since the first import I have been testing the varroa tolerance of the Australian import bees. I was surprised as was Bell Hill Honey that the first import Australian Bees (which had never seen a varroa mite) had varroa loads in August/ September low enough to not treat if so inclined. Bell Hill Honey chose to treat. I left the test hives untreated and they did get a high enough varroa load in late spring of the next year to treat. The last tested are needing treatment the fall of the second season. Sure the progress is slow but progress is being made. The hope by Terry Brown is when varroa arrives he will be prepared and ALSO to send the best bees he can into the countries he imports to. All of those countries have got varroa. Sincerely, Bob Harrison - This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 15:13:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Chemicals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote: >The key issue in treatments is "what is the potential for harm". That is why >substances have been selected that occur naturally in honey... Hello Peter! This is of great concern to all in the need to reduce harmful contaminates in our colonies. I sometimes fear that perhaps, by industry continuing the focus and all out efforts towards reducing contaminates by developing ever more effective “natural pesticides”. We are as focus often does; blocking our peripheral vision from seeing potentially greater harms lurking just outside the focal point. And this greater harm might well be, the contamination of the breeding pool with genetics not having earned representation, having been propped up by these ‘less harmful natural pesticides‘. Even the most harmless treatment in the world will still spread a major contamination, potentially contributing a greater long term harm to an entire breeding population of honeybees. Unfortunately going overlooked with the focus all going to selective harms. >From my point of view, a '99 % effective less harmful treatment', may just as well be as harmful to honeybees as a '99 % effective harmful treatment'. With the affects felt for years, having spread a contamination of less fit genetics throughout the breeding population. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 16:00:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Corporate Corn (bread) In-Reply-To: <062e01c747a8$3042f200$6500a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > > What we have to remember is that food promotion is not a new thing. > The original food processors are the flour mills, and that they found > that if they stripped much of the nutrition from grains to make an > addictive, ultimately dangerous food which is predominantly just a > simple starch (flour) from what started out being a healthy food, add > a bit of mystique, and hire Norman Rockwell, they could make far more > money than they could growing wheat. Milling to get white bread started in Egypt around 1000BC, so it is difficult to blame the more recent "them" or, in this case, "they". The reason the Egyptians milled to was not to reduce the nutrients, since the Egyptians were a few centuries behind in setting up the FDA or USDA, but to insure purity of the product which the consumer wanted. If it was white, then nothing else was added. It actually was more difficult to make it, so the whiter the bread, the better it was thought to be and the more expensive it became. Poor folk ate the cheap dark bread and the rich the expensive white. It has only been recently that dark bread became popular (as well as the white bread myth that "they" did it) and is now more expensive than white! Just think when poor folk could finally afford white bread. It was more a sign of the affluence of America than any conspiracy to destroy people's health. In one paragraph, totally off the subject of beekeeping, you have, and I appreciate it, validated my concern on keeping to beekeeping, which at least we have a modicum of knowledge and more than enough opinion. Bill Truesdell (who now wears a tinfoil hat while he reads the bee list and munches on his white bread with "them".) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 16:29:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Corporate Corn (bread) In-Reply-To: <45C4F7E7.6030205@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just one more note. Another of my hobbies is bread making. I was a member of several other lists on the subject. White flour is actually one of the easiest flours to work with. When you get into some of the dark breads, they can be difficult, so ad that to the list of reasons for white bread. Lazy bakers. The French peasants at the time of the Revolution wanted some of that white bread the rich folk were eating, instead of the "bad" dark bread they had to eat. Now we want to chop off the heads of the bakers because they give us white bread instead of dark! There are a lot of myths that suit our mindset. They have little to do with the truth but satisfy something in us usually dealing with our position in life and one or more of the seven deadly sins. None of us is immune. My son brought me up short when he reminded me of just that, that others can have valid opinions that are as good as mine, for they are just that, opinions. We all have opinions about things like football teams (even soccer teams) or even the direction of our nation, but those opinions are not fact, as Allen's tag line notes. When we are governed by opinion, we are truly lost, because there is truth, even if we do not want to believe it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 19:03:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Jobb Subject: Moving Bees Short Distances in Winter In-Reply-To: AAAAADZECoqcxRNFiktOpnCxhbKkID0A MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A beekeeper recently asked me about moving hives a short distance (possibly 10-50') in the wintertime. Aside from the hazards of breaking the cluster in subfreezing weather, the beekeeper wanted to know how long it would take for worker bees to "forget" their orientation and thus need to reorient. If bees stay in a tight cluster for 3 weeks or longer, will they "remember" their location or will they be required to do an orientation flight on the next "warm" day before or as part of their cleansing flight? I searched the BEE-L archives and could not find an answer to this moving winter question. Anyone have experience with this situation? Jim Bobb Worcester Honey Farms, Inc. Lansdale, PA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 20:56:10 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: cell size, OA(v) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Saturday 03 February 2007 05:00, BEE-L automatic digest system wrote: > Last Pierco I measured was 5.25mm.  FWIW, I found that to be an ideal size > cell.  Maybe 0.05mm large, but closer than anything else I've tried. Allen: Benson's, in Metcalfe 20 mi S of Ottawa ~5.18, using vernier & reading glasses the hex is most irregular (5.20, 5.18, 5.14) Wires stick out, cursing results (Pierco I think is 5.3+) All of my frames are marked (I hope I'm not lying) In the brood boxes only, are 6 of 5.2 in the center >The logic is prolly OK. The assumptions are generally where theories go wrong IMO.ARS has a free program called VarroaPop For Win? Just trying to figure out why OA(v) works so well, almost too well. Remember I'm a northern BK so fewer brood cycles I didn't think winter was coming, but in Jan it has been worthwhile plugging in the heaters since it almost has reached -30c twice Maybe 5-6d use (makes me feel less foolish) dave -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 17:28:28 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Am I correct in reading this as referring to your operation, and that >> you managed to keep bees alive, but did not get production? > Allen this has been gone over with you and others in the past and I have > said it several times. Very true, and thank you for your patience in going over this once again. We--even those who reject or question many of the ideas associated with "small cell"--are quite familiar with the general concepts, but, as they say, "The devil is in the details", so I'm hoping we can discuss some of the details that cause people the most trouble, and which repeatedly get glossed over, or omitted. This might also be useful to those who have just come onto the topic > In talking first regression down of which we did to the 5.0mm - 5.1mm mode > coming off of 5.4mm in the beginning it looks good and you say, looks > great for the bees. But in actuality it is a red herring. OK. Personally, I found, with Adony's help, that even going to 5.25, if that is what Pierco one-piece frames measure, made a difference, but, then that is close to what our bees seem to want to build when they get free. (Speaking aside, on another topic): Also the same tests seemed to indicate that using a dark foundation (even black plastic, instead of white) helped, too, and I know you use very dark wax when you make foundation. > FWIW as far as I am concerned for by year 8 it was close to back the > other way that made us want to redo, and of course we did. What year was that? 1994? > By year 8 we were back to 50% losses and requeening spring and fall and > knew we had only a certain amount of time to think through and retool > again for that 0.1mm to 0.2mm (zeros added to quote for clarity by Allen) > change we did to try to get it right That was the beginning of the final change down to your present size? And that current size is just under 4.9mm. (5.8 cells per inch or 31 cells per sq in (on one side of a comb). > ...realizing that things were complicated after studying all the various > ways measuring combs had been changed for what we thought we originally Now, are you talking about the confusion between a square decimetre and a decimetre square? Or, if not that, then which various ways, specifically? > ...had besides learning more in foundation making for the good and the bad > part of it. You make great foundation. Better than plastic, in many ways, IMO. > Here suttleties meant a lot we found out. Course no one liked hearing that > then, and then too we were told others might not agree with us fine > tooling more. Right. I can understand that. > But with that much work in, hard as it was, and going down to break even > with intermediate size after 8 years. You are referring to the 50% losses, I assume? > We slip the sheet so to speak and just did it going then to 4.9mm and into > the forbidden zone we were told to stay out of for top tolerance......... > OK. I'm wondering who was saying not to do that? > From there on out we have come forward, though gates stopping at every > turn we have tried to make FWIW..... I understand that to mean that you are now able to maintain the numbers and make a little honey? > So Keep the question you asked confined to the first step > down............and those we had working relationships with knowing also, > the SAME wall would hit others LATER. But then of course treatments can > stave that off!! like ho ho, sure, my? OK. Sometimes I have trouble understanding what your meaning is, but I take this to mean that those reducing cell size and stopping short at 5.2 or 5.0, are going to find that they have the same failures in a few years that you had when you got to 5.0 (was it 5.0) and thought that you had the problem licked--then found the problem reappeared? One other question that everyone asks. What role do you think that the ARS documented Africanization of Tucson and area may have had on the optimal size for your bees? Or was that a factor. Seems to me you dispute their observations. I'm hoping that I am understanding you correctly and that you will clarify any point where I misunderstand. Thanks. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 22:19:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: HFCS (was Organic foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bob wrote > HFCS contains two sugars which shorten bees lives. In fact kill bees when > spiked into syrup in certain doses (that can be found in off spec HFCS). I'm looking forward to your article, Bob. Northern Calif beekeepers got hit hard by bad syrup this year. Too much HMF, and possibly other problems. Many use 50:50 sucrose:HFCS. some pure sucrose syrup. Do you have any info re any differences to bees between cane and beet sugar? Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 06:41:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: cell size, OA(v) In-Reply-To: <200702032056.10247.dthompson@nexusisp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> The logic is prolly OK. The assumptions are generally where theories go > wrong IMO.ARS has a free program called VarroaPop > > For Win? Yes. http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/soft/vpop/vpop.html It's got some quirks but with a little head scratching you can figure it out. I'm no Varroapop expert but feel free to contact me if you have any questions. George- --------------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 22:29:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: varroa tolerant bees (was Organic foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bob wrote: > To prepare Terry Brown has been importing varroa tolerant Italian & Buckfast > queens from Italy to incorporate into his breeding program. Italy has been > fighting varroa almost a decade longer than the U.S.. > Thanks, Bob, for the info. I've been wondering how the Aussie bees have been faring so well against varroa in Calif. I'm glad to see that Terry is using this time before they get varroa in Australia wisely. Randy -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 20:34:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? In-Reply-To: <000201c74808$768c8f90$4d00a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit One other question that everyone asks. What role do you think that the ARS documented Africanization of Tucson and area may have had on the optimal size for your bees? Or was that a factor. Seems to me you dispute their observations. Reply: Role the Documentation of africanzation of Tucson and area had on the optimal size for our bees? Well, we didn't back away from following the bees and their needs, and breeding by older ways not followed much anymore, to see how they would fall out with the old archive sizes by latitude and altitude we researched and pieced together, which they have done fine. We also added a few things we learned by doing on our own accord. As for the documented africanization of local area, funny thing is all the early finds, which I noted by mapping, were only near those beeyards sized down with SC we were supplying back then, as we had free classes yearly many times a year and took our local bee club with us for foundation changeouts. Also knowing bees regress to the +/- of sizing with foundation with most all locally using the 5.0mm to 5.1mm sizing with us, and knowing some was smaller, but not enough(to stave off having to do it again better fine tuning) already for going on 8 years, a lot of bees both domestic and feral were already mating back and forth for the better and to the smaller. Then going smaller like we did and at this time the 4.9mm ruler measurers were being sold for africanization etc, with 5.0mm line being drawn for EU bees and 4.9mm being drawn for AHB bees for FAST ID, the game FWIW was set. Deciding to go smaller and having many locally follow us, then put us and others, into the forbidden zone FAST measurement wise, no matter what the bees were. On top of that testing in EU showed our bees to be caucasian like stock, while USDA showed it in blind testing to be AHB and personally I believe due to money needs for labs, the problem was never corrected FWIW..................also because I have never seen a change in our bees really behaviour wise, but color wise back to the old mediterranean colorations, and pretty uniformly too. As a side note: I also know that mixing several races/strains makes for hot bees. So does many chemicals put upon them, and also diet plays into the scenario. So with the hype for 20 plus years now, it's like who do you belive........well, most do as trained. Unfortunately I am before the time of training like other older beekeepers, and as we die off/leave, all the newer know is the hype and what they read, not what physically brought up and shown in the actual management of bees and how to compare and sort out, which to me is differnet, was then and still is. continuing: I'm hoping that I am understanding you correctly and that you will clarify any point where I misunderstand. Reply: I am replying, long winded maybe but trying to tell you how I feel and think about things. Let me add, we had to follow the bees needs and the sizing game we couldn't follow, we had to follow the bees needs to control the mites and secondary diseases and to that end continue to help our bees. If we had to do it all over again. We would follow the bees needs.......paper is nilch when it doesn't work, but that then makes life hard, for many cannot sort that out. Dee- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 22:22:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Moving Bees Short Distances in Winter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If > bees stay in a tight cluster for 3 weeks or longer, will they "remember" > their location When I've put bees in a closed observation hive for a week, they remember where they came from when they fly again. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 07:01:59 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Northern California Losses Blamed on Syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> HFCS contains two sugars which shorten bees lives. In fact kill bees when >> spiked into syrup in certain doses (that can be found in off spec HFCS). Note the mention of *off-spec* HFCS, not properly certified HFCS. > I'm looking forward to your article, Bob. Northern Calif beekeepers got > hit hard by bad syrup this year. Too bad they don't read BEE-L. Coulda saved them mega grief. There was a major loss throughout central Canada a few years ago, and this was discussed in depth here on BEE, including mention of the studies that Dr. Rob Currie in Manitoba did on HFCS feeding. He established that properly first quality documented HFCS of the type made with the enzyme process (as opposed to off-spec or syrup produced by an acid process) comes very close to sucrose in his longevity tests conducted with caged bees. I'm sure he has the slides somewhere and would provide them on request. > Do you have any info re any differences to bees between cane and beet > sugar? Rob would be one source, in regard to the effect on bees, and might provide other references, too. He, as with most researchers I've met, is very helpful and willing to share information. He is also a good speaker, for those looking to fill a convention or meeting slot. http://www.umanitoba.ca/afs/entomology/staff/faculty/curriepage.html > Too much HMF, and possibly other problems. Many use 50:50 sucrose:HFCS. > some pure sucrose syrup. If a number of syrups were involved, sounds to me like something else, with syrup getting the blame. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 05:41:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: HFCS feeding recommendations In-Reply-To: <002f01c747b9$3b337b60$0dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote:HFCS contains two sugars which shorten bees lives. In fact kill bees when spiked into syrup in certain doses (that can be found in off spec HFCS). The sugars: Stachyose & Raffinose These sugars are not found in sucrose. Bob, Are you saying then that you don't feed HFCS? Do you feed purely sucrose sugar syrup? Do you feed a mixture? Looking at the initial costs of feeding, sucrose would be pretty expensive for the beekeepers with large numbers of hives. What is your recommendation, your own and not a consensus, for beekeepers with just a few hives and those who have large numbers of hives? Mike in LA --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 07:08:23 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: cell size, OA(v) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Benson's, in Metcalfe 20 mi S of Ottawa ~5.18, using vernier & reading > glasses the hex is most irregular (5.20, 5.18, 5.14) Wires stick out, > cursing results (Pierco I think is 5.3+) Oh, yes. I built 125, 8 high, Farrar hives in the early seventies. Bought and milled the pine logs on the Sue Burn, out in BC, trucked them back and custom-milled the logs to planks of the right size to build those 6-5/8x20x20, 12 frame boxes, with Manley end bars. AND, I used Benson foundation, trucked all the way from Ontario. It was brittle, and the wires bowed it, but it worked OK. Didn't know they were still around and making that size. Thanks for reminding me. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 07:14:41 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Moving Bees Short Distances in Winter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I searched the BEE-L archives and could not find an answer to this moving > winter question. It is there. The topic has come up several times. One discussion contained reports that bees remember the former location very long times, and go to look at it, circling, but return to the new stand and don't pile up at the old spot except in cases where the beekeeper is particularly inept. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 07:44:07 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Corporate Corn (bread) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I take it that we are pretty well in agreement, then, Bill. Thanks for sketching in more detail regarding the timeframe, politics, etc. Nutrition is an interesting topic, since, as in beekeeping, money and politics steer the research and determine which questions we will ask and those we will not. As was pointed out here a short while ago, if we ask the wrong questions, the answers do not matter. An amazing phenomenon, seen in organisations (and by extension, society at large) is that the members of any organisation seldom see (or acknowledge, at least) any problem they cannot *profitably* solve with some certainty, or any problem that is not likely to be accepted and acknowledged by their superiors. To do so would be too dangerous to the organisation or their own tenure. The members do, however find lots of problems of the sort that will keep them (and their favourite associates) gainfully occupied for a long time, whether those problems are of any real importance or not, and whether the underlying assumptions are even valid. As a result, much of our research appears to me to be looking in the wrong direction entirely. However, the appearance of fact, based on limited, flawed, incomplete, and/or sometimes simply bogus studies satisfy the masses, telling them often what they want to believe, and what makes money for the Machine, not what they need to know, or what might throw sand in the gears. And the media finish the job. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is necessarily and universally a Bad Thing. It's been good to me--so far. But we shouldn't kid ourselves, most of what we 'know' about everything is wrong, or just part of the story. The epidemic of obesity and diabetes is here, and the culprits are right under our noses, except we are not allowed to see them. The Internet is changing that. Similarly, beekeeping has been rushing down some wrong roads. Can we manage to start from first principles and re-invent our craft? Some are trying, and whether they are right or wrong at this point in their efforts, I salute them! Let's dare to ask the right questions. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:11:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Greetings! I would hope that people contributing to an open forum would read over their submissions before sending them off, because they will be read by hundreds, if not thousands of people and will be archived for many years to come. Typos and misspellings are one thing but some of the postings lately fly in the face of modern science and the correct understanding of bee biology and animal husbandry. For the record, I support the goals and methods of "Organic Farming" but I most strenuously object to propaganda and a general anti-science bias that sometimes goes along with it. J. Waggle wrote: >Even the most harmless treatment in the world will still spread a major >contamination, potentially contributing a greater long term harm to an >entire breeding population of honeybees. This seems like the most extreme point of view I have heard yet. It is one thing to say "all chemicals are BAD" but now you say "all treatments are bad"? Are you saying no matter how harmless a treatment appears to be, it will harm the bees anyway? Do you forget the word "treatment" includes all sorts of non-chemical methods, such as freezing drone brood, etc. ? Better think this one over a bit more. D. Lusby wrote: > I am replying, long winded maybe but trying to tell you how > I feel and think about things. That response, which must be read several times, reminded me of the movie "Billy Madison" where the principal said: "At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it." My fervent hope is that we can help the bee industry by bringing to it more and better information, but there is enough confusion already. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:19:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Chemicals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings! I just a note about a great web site devoted to teaching the basics of chemistry http://www.chem1.com/acad/webtext/pre/chemsci.html quotes: Chemistry is too universal and dynamically-changing a subject to be confined to a fixed definition; it might be better to think of chemistry more as a point of view that places its major focus on the structure and properties of substances— particular kinds of matter— and especially on the changes that they undergo. The real importance of Chemistry is that it serves as the interface to practically all of the other sciences, as well as to many other areas of human endeavor. For this reason, Chemistry is often said (at least by chemists!) to be the "central science". pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:14:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: HFCS (was Organic foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, > Northern Calif beekeepers got hit hard by bad syrup this year. Part of the problem (as I understand it) involves the trucking. We were advised to check the temperature of all tanker loads on arrival. Seems some coming a long distance have been way too hot causing problems. >Many use 50:50 sucrose:HFCS. some pure sucrose syrup. These mixes have not been available to use in the Midwest but hopefully things will change. I was surprised to hear the number of beekeepers which have switched to sucrose already. Do you have any info re any differences to bees between cane and beet sugar? Both are sucrose so both do not contain toxic sugars. I did a couple posts on BEE-L through the years about HFCS containing small amounts of toxic to bees sugars. I was quickly put down by the HFCS lovers. Mostly by the younger generation of commercial beekeepers which do not date back to my era. I was around when we only used sucrose. I remember when the HFCS sellers entered the beekeeper marketplace. I remember when Roy Barker was asked to look at both HFCS & sucrose and report back. Bobby Worlycamp (not sure of his last name spelling) from Nebraska (large commercial beekeeper) has never embrased HFCS. He tried a small amount one season and to this day uses sucrose. I did switch to HFCS. All I have used for quite a while. My beekeeping partner and I get a tanker load in spring and fall which is normally enough for us. I did use some cane sugar when I had the freight damage sugar contract for the nationwide "Recovery Sales" outfit. Recovery Sales got all freight damage goods from Yellow Freight ( largest LTL hauler) & UPS at the time. A steady flow of sugar was coming in. In fact I had to resale some of the sugar as my warehouse was filling up. As far as the Weslaco research I am reporting on we need to fund additional research on HFCS. We need to find out exactly why bees live longer when fed sucrose than HFCS. OR Do as many California beekeepers already have done and move to the sucrose product. If many do then the price will come down and the availability will improve ( the selfish reason for my article on HFCS/sucrose). I will also be touching lightly on research comparing protein supplements to both fresh frozen pollen and the irradiated dried pollen. Hopefully my article will be published in the March issue. If not April ABJ for sure. The Weslaco research on both pollen substitutes and HFCS have been submitted to apidologie for publication. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:48:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: varroa tolerant bees (was Organic foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, Randy wrote: > I'm glad to see that Terry is using this time before they get varroa in Australia wisely. Commercial beekeeping is a small world. In fact a very small industry. Thinking ahead is the way we will survive. When Terry and I met we seemed to be on the same wave length. Kind of like you and I did. I encouraged you to write articles. I have been amazed at the articles you have done! Keep up the writing! I think the average reader of ABJ or BC would be shocked to hear the amount of time it takes to do an article. Both Kim Flottum ( Bee Culture) & Joe Graham ( American Bee Journal) have encouraged me to write. Beekeepers like articles by other beekeepers! We have no agendas other than helping other beekeepers. Beekeepers like Randy Oliver,Michael Palmer, Kirk Webster, Chuck Norton, James Fischer, Allen Dick, Dick Marion, Dee Lusby and many others taking the time to write. I have been an avid reader of old ABJ & BC. I have got magazines collections back into the 20's. Never have I seen so many larger beekeepers writing for the bee magazines as today. I hope when beekeepers 20-50 years from today reread old bee magazines they think. Wow! some of these beekeepers were on the right track and were years ahead of their time. Is that not what we think about Langstroth, Miller and Dolittle? Subscriptions to bee magazines are down which is mostly due to the declining number of beekeepers. Please subscribe to BOTH magazines! If you do you are supporting beekeeping! Beekeepers get most of their current beekeeping information from those magazines. Far more than they get from the AHPA & ABF conventions or local meetings. The internet reaches beekeepers but only a very small percent. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:25:20 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Dee. Since you did not respond to all the other comments and clarifications I made to your previous post on this topic, I trust that my guesses were correct. However, you have chosen to discuss the following question: >> One other question that everyone asks. What role do you think that the >> ARS documented Africanization of Tucson and area may have had on the >> optimal size for your bees? Or was that a factor. Seems to me you >> dispute their observations. > ...Well, we didn't back away from following the bees and their needs, and > breeding by older ways not followed much anymore, to see how they would > fall out with the old archive sizes by latitude and altitude we researched > and pieced together, which they have done fine. OK. In plain language, I take this to mean that you read old literature that claimed that someone or someones wrote somewhere that bees are distributed and adapt such that specific sizes and colours are found at various lattitudes and altitudes, and that there is a definite way of predicting this. Seems I recall that you wrote some articles on this. Can you tell us where to find this info? > ... As for the documented africanization of local area, funny thing is all > the early finds, which I noted by mapping, were only near those beeyards > sized down with SC we were supplying back then already for going on > 8 years, a lot of bees both domestic and feral were already mating back > and forth... So you are suggesting that the earliest ARS reports of africanization around Tucson were due to the fact that you and local beekeepers were using smaller cells, and that the identification method used initially was cell measurement as explained below? > Then going smaller like we did and at this time the 4.9mm ruler measurers > were being sold for africanization etc, with 5.0mm line being drawn for EU > bees and 4.9mm being drawn for AHB bees for FAST ID, the game FWIW was > set. So, you are saying that they saw your bees and escaped hives and measured and thought they saw AHB? > Deciding to go smaller and having many locally follow us, then put us and > others, into the forbidden zone FAST measurement wise, no matter what the > bees were. OK. Got that. I recall hearing that they are reconsidering some of the isolated early California finds on the basis that they are now finding cell size is not a totally reliable identifier. > On top of that testing in EU showed our bees to be caucasian like stock, > while USDA showed it in blind testing to be AHB So, you say that testing in Europe showed EHB, while US testing showed AHB. I suppose a logical question was what methods were used in each case, and whether the Europeans were looking for AHB markers, and, what amount of AHB would it take to make the call. One very curious thing--to me--is that in the US, AHB determination seems to be like the old racial segragation thing (remember that?): one black ancestor and you are a black. One white ancestor did not make you white. Go figure. By association, "African is bad?". Is this what is going on? I'm wondering if, in Europe, they go by degree and that a little AHB would not be worth mentioning, since, after all, there are African genes in Spanish bees. (And to get even farther off-track, the earliest bees in the Americas were Spanish!). Anyhow, I'm wondering if the European determination of "caucasian like stock" neglected any African heritage as being inconsequential, while the US anaysis seized on the tiniest trace of African influence and ignored the rest? > and personally I believe due to money needs for labs, the problem was > never corrected.. OK. That is water over the dam. Do you, today, dispute the claim that Tucson is "africanized", or the extent of africanization? Please expand on this. > FWIW..................also because I have never seen a change in our bees > really behaviour wise, but color wise back to the old mediterranean > colorations, and pretty uniformly too. As I understand it, many of you bees came directly from swarm traps on golf courses and around Tucson. Were these swarms from your hives and those of the remaining AZ beekeepers, or from wild AHB passing through? Or a mixture? And if the latter, then how did you "unafricanize" them? > As a side note: I also know that mixing several races/strains makes for > hot bees. So does many chemicals put upon them.. No arguement, altough this can be unpredictable. > and also diet plays into the scenario. Or, especially, lack of diet :) > So with the hype for 20 plus years now, it's like who do you > belive........well, most do as trained. You are preaching to the choir, here, but I have trouble believeing that where there is smoke, there is no fire. > Unfortunately I am before the time of training like other older > beekeepers, and as we die off/leave, all the newer know is the hype and > what they read, not what physically brought up and shown in the actual > management of bees and how to compare and sort out, which to me is > differnet, was then and still is. Well, not everybody can see that anymore, but I have to agree with you. I do have to say, however, that all the old info is not necessarily better than the newer info, or even necessarily true. Moreover, some of the old guys were bad at math or terrible writers, and we'll never know what they were trying to say. Our best guess is to assume the most cryptic writing was trying to say pretty much what the clearest texts say. > I am replying, long winded maybe but trying to tell you how I feel and > think about things. Well, Dee, you never have been the easiest person to understand, but I very much appreciate your sharing your ideas. > Let me add, we had to follow the bees needs and the sizing game we > couldn't follow, we had to follow the bees needs to control the mites and > secondary diseases and to that end continue to help our bees. If we had to > do it all over again. We would follow the bees needs.......paper is nilch > when it doesn't work, but that then makes life hard, for many cannot sort > that out. I have to say, from where I sit, that you are exactly right. A good beekeeper serves the bees and in turn they serve him/her. I can't count the times that I planned everything out, then went to a bee yard and was told otherwise by the bees. To the degree I was a successful beekeeper, I can attribute that to being able to read the bees and co-operate with them. On the other hand, you can count on me to dispute and question some, or even most of your conclusions, and question whether the course you have chosen will suit more than a specific sort of beekeepers, UNLESS we embrace (or simply forget about) race and learn to work the bees we are presented with instead, of trying to dominate by brute force. allen PS. I notice that not everyone understood your post -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:04:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Corporate Corn (bread) In-Reply-To: <01c001c7486a$eddff840$4d00a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > I take it that we are pretty well in agreement, then, Bill. > Yes, but the whole "white bread" story is a bit overblown. If you check nutrients and the like the differences are not as great as many would like us to believe. Classic is the contention that Wonder Bread has a high glycemic index while whole wheat does not. The difference is WW is 7 and WB is 10, both of which are low compared to most foods. You can play that game with just about any two foods. > > An amazing phenomenon, seen in organisations (and by extension, > society at large) is that the members of any organisation seldom see > (or acknowledge, at least) any problem they cannot *profitably* solve > with some certainty, or any problem that is not likely to be accepted > and acknowledged by their superiors. To do so would be too dangerous > to the organisation or their own tenure. They go where the money is. > > But we shouldn't kid ourselves, most of what we 'know' about > everything is wrong, or just part of the story. A bit over the top, but has the germ of truth. We are products of our beliefs, not necessarily of truth. If we do not allow other to challenge what we believe, then we are fools. Iron sharpens iron. > > The epidemic of obesity and diabetes is here, and the culprits are > right under our noses, except we are not allowed to see them. The > Internet is changing that. Actually, the problem is being addressed. It is the culprit that has only recently been found in research, since that does take time. It all deals with human metabolism and fructose vs. sucrose. We handle the white death (sugar not white bread) as a sugar but HFCS more like a fat. That was not clearly understood until recently when the obesity problem became more apparent. Before it was all on amounts of snack food, then colas but it was always metabolism. BTW, Mexico still uses sucrose to make Coke and there is a flourishing over the border trade of it to SW US. There are culprits here and they are both the sugar and corn lobbies. If we had open border for sugar, it would be cheap. But a lot of farmers would be out of jobs. Hawaii has just about gone out of the sugar business since the land is much more profitable with dwellings on it than sugar cane. Pineapples are next on the list. My oldest son has a home on an ex-pineapple field. > Some are trying, and whether they are right or wrong at this point in > their efforts, I salute them! I have a problem with this when agendas are involved. Reading the reviews on the book was interesting mainly in the solution to the problem. Not the problem. > > Let's dare to ask the right questions. I prefer right answers :) > > allen Now the rest of the story. Allen and I have crossed swords on this list, but we have more often been in agreement. What most do not know is Allen was the one who approved all my posts in opposition to his approach to the problem of off topic items on the Bee List. He did not keep the list to himself so only his view prevailed, but allowed dissent. Another reason I enjoy this list. We have exceptional moderators. If you wonder how I know it was Allen who approved my posts, the method is in the archives. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:07:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: varroa tolerant bees (was Organic foundation) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 11:14:22 -0600, Bob Harrison wrote: >Building an organic business on the notion the area will always be mite >free does seem a bit risky. > I will have several options "when" it happens, first the area is so remote (handful of year around inhabitants, no utilities either) and so void of any beekeepers that one infested yard would not take down all of the yards right away. if that were to happen pulling an infested yard out in fall and moving it south would be an option. the likelihood of swarms making it in a very northern climate is less likely also. its also a question i'd like to answer in the next few years ...do we have any so called feral colonies in this area. if I'm starting with mite free stock and there is no one around for 35-70 miles, I see no reason why I cannot remain isolated as this group of beekeepers has for the last 15-20 years. its not what most keeepers would see as a highly productive season or area so as long as no one moves in with "southern" bees we should be ok for a while. 2nd mites and organic certification are not mutually exclusive. the certification houses I listed do allow the use of formic, oxalic and thymol, plus as noted on this board resistant stock is improving all of the time and we may have readily available stock in the future. right now being able to run clean bees is a cost advantage (plus a walk down memory lane) as they really will not need the same support from a beekeeper as mite infested colonies do. in fact if I pull honey in august they are on there own after wrapping til next may. a far cry from the monkey business we have to do with mite drop testing, early fall treatment and then OA treatment in broodless period here in farm country. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 14:27:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Who is serving Whom? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I have to say, from where I sit, that you are exactly right. A good >beekeeper serves the bees and in turn they serve him/her. >From where I sit, I see just the opposite. A good beekeeper makes sure the bees serve him/her. That is, if he's trying to make a living out of it. (If you are just keeping them as pets, you can skip this.) This is the whole idea behind pollinating, migrating, moving to good locations, etc. Otherwise, why would anyone load up 500 or 3000 hives and drive them across the country? Obviously, this is very hard on the colonies AND the beekeeper. Having bees moving all over the place is bad for the health of the whole industry, too. But this is the modern world: your problem is my problem! One of my best friends used to move his bees four or five times a year, the whole 1000 hives. If he thought there was a good crop to be made in another county, up they went. In the final analysis, better forage means better bees, so the two are not separate: both the bees and the beekeeper need to prosper. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:00:46 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Off Topic: Glycemic Index MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Classic is the contention that Wonder Bread has a high glycemic index > while whole wheat does not. The difference is WW is 7 and WB is 10, both > of which are low compared to most foods. Gee, I don't know what sources you are using. In all the material I've read, white bread is the same as white sugar, and whole wheat bread is not much better. There are a few breads that are low glycemic, but the only way for sure the effect on yourself, is to measure your own blood glucose at half-hour intervals after consuming a specific amount. There are many, many foods that rate lower than bread as a class. Breads and pasteries generally are right up there with sugar. Some people can eat that stuff al their lives and stay skinny, but many people start gaining and soon develop varying degrees insulin resistance, syndrom X, and pre-diabetes that go undetected until it progresses into overt diabetes, since health screening is based on "normals" and "normal" in North America IS slightly insulin-resistant and a bit chubby. >> The epidemic of obesity and diabetes is here, and the culprits are right >> under our noses, except we are not allowed to see them. The Internet is >> changing that. > Actually, the problem is being addressed. It is the culprit that has only > recently been found in research, since that does take time. It all deals > with human metabolism and fructose vs. sucrose. We handle the white death > (sugar not white bread) as a sugar but HFCS more like a fat. Hadn't heard that. References? > That was not clearly understood until recently when the obesity problem > became more apparent. Before it was all on amounts of snack food, then > colas but it was always metabolism. I thought that it was a number of factors all combined: higher amounts of sugars of all types in the diet, more highly gelatinized starches, more trans-fats, and more food at a serving, combined with less exercise and more stress. Add to that the fact that kids now drink juices and sodas (little difference, really) all the time, and that food is dirt cheap. With increased high-powered advertsing, and many more convenience foods penetrating the market. Have you ever looked at the ingredient list and nutrient profiles of these imitation foods? They have little resemblance to the foods they are supposed to be, and the shelf life of a stone. I was looking into HFCS, but what I found said that the difference between sucrose and HFCS is that the type 55 yields about the same products as sucrose does on digestion--1 glucose and 1 fructose--except for the slightly higher percentage of fructose as in 55:45 vs 50:50 >> Let's dare to ask the right questions. > I prefer right answers :) These only follow right questions. > Now the rest of the story. Allen and I have crossed swords on this list, > but we have more often been in agreement. What most do not know is Allen > was the one who approved all my posts in opposition to his approach to the > problem of off topic items on the Bee List. He did not keep the list to > himself so only his view prevailed, but allowed dissent. Another reason I > enjoy this list. We have exceptional moderators. If you wonder how I know > it was Allen who approved my posts, the method is in the archives. Drat! Exposed! Actually, Bill is right, FWIW, I am not normally moderating--I quit BEE-L completely a year ago--and moderator@honeybeeworld.com is actually shared account that a number of moderators have access to, but Aaron is off on some R&R, and since I've been back on BEE-L lately, he asked me to ride herd on the list this weekend, or he'd let everything wait until he gets back ...so here I am. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:22:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: HFCS (was Organic foundation) In-Reply-To: <000701c7486f$1cc39d20$26bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Do you have any info re any differences to bees between cane and beet sugar? > Commercial beet and cane are sucrose and the same and fine for bees. There is good info on this in the archives. There is an issue with incomplete processed cane and beet sugar. HFCS was tested by the Brits long ago along with sugar and honey. Sugar was the best feed, HFCS second and honey last for overwintering bees. HFCS is an excellent winter feed, as has been shown for years. There is a lot of discussion on this in the archives along with off spec HFCS. Some beekeepers do not understand that there are two different processes to make HFCS. The acid method is a bee killer. Add to that, there are two different enzyme produced HFCS and, if you do not know what you are buying, you will harm your bees. My guess is the HFCS was not off spec, but either the seller or buyers did not know the product. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 07:55:14 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > And this greater harm might well be, the contamination of the breeding > pool with genetics not having earned representation, having been propped > up by these ‘less harmful natural pesticides‘. The beekeepers who manage most of the hives in North America--the commercials--don't have the time or resources to worry much about the gene pool, and they delegate the task to the scientists and the bee breeders. Beyond some simple selection and queen or cell rearing, most commercial beekeepers simply do what they can to keep their current stock alive and productive, and expect to be replacing it with appropriate selections from the above sources. The larger number of beekeepers, however--the hobbyists or amateur (in the best sense of the word)--have different objectives. Some are out to make honey, but many others don't care and others yet have undertaken to try to improve bees or maintain specific stocks. These are conflicting interests, and beekeeping being what it is, unfenced and portable, they often run into one another. Can they ever be reconciled? I guess that is a challenge for lists like this and bee forums. We seem to be making some headway. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 14:45:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Chemicals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote: >This seems like the most extreme point of view I have heard yet. It is >one thing to say "all chemicals are BAD" but now you say "all >treatments are bad"? Are you saying no matter how harmless a treatment >appears to be, it will harm the bees anyway? Do you forget the word >"treatment" includes all sorts of non-chemical methods, such as >freezing drone brood, etc. ? Better think this one over a bit more. Hello Peter! No matter how harmless the treatment, you will by nature of the treatment be "controlling varroa for the colony" (colony welfare support, propping them up etc.) and cause potentially piss poor genetics (PPG) to live on in your apiary potentially spreading PPG as long as you promote PPG by propping them up. Treatments also include many non chemical methods of varroa control such as drone freezing. Drone freezing IMO may potentially be worse because you are removing drones from the mating pool that may or may not be useful. How would your mating fair if you remove all the drones by culling them? Anytime you are freezing drone brood for varrao control, you ARE in fact <<“controlling varroa for the colony”>> same as the harshest treatments do the same in <<“controlling varroa for the colony”>> thus permitting colonies less capable of controlling varroa on their own (PPG) to reproduce. Also, when you control varroa for the colony, you remove any possibility of effectively assessing a colony on it’s “actual colony performance“ where the assessment of resistant traits is essential. Joe, (thinking more than happy to have this information archived forever, and for thousands to read misspelling and all. :) Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:50:44 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Who is serving Whom? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > A good beekeeper serves the bees and in turn they serve him/her. > ...A good beekeeper makes sure the bees serve him/her. > ...so the two are not separate: both the bees and the beekeeper need to > prosper. So it seems we're actually all agreed, then? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 15:26:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Chemicals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit allen dick wrote: >The larger number of beekeepers, however--the hobbyists or amateur (in the >best sense of the word)--have different objectives. Some are out to make >honey, but many others don't care and others yet have undertaken to try to >improve bees or maintain specific stocks. Hello Allen! I agree with your entire post, but only clipped the above portion for reference! Hobbyists like myself can sometimes have different objectives than the commercial beekeepers. Partly because while we tend to have time to experiment and take more risks in our beekeeping and breeding programs, commercial beekeepers and breeders must rightly so have supporting family a priority. In my bee improvement program, I see that some feral stock is showing promise for me. Although I may make headway in my improvement of stock, ultimately IMO it will be the competitive feral population providing a more powerful selective force than I could ever achieve on my own, pulling me along for the ride. When commenting on treatment threads such as this, I do tend to emphasize how treatments might effect the genetic pool due to my beekeeping and breeding philosophy that depends so much on competitive mating,,, and I know it is often at odds with professionals and scientists. Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 15:25:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Chemicals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 14:45:54 -0500, J. Waggle wrote: >Drone freezing IMO may potentially be worse because you are removing drones from the mating pool that may or may not be useful. How would your mating fair if you remove all the drones by culling them? First off, it is impossible to remove all the drones. Second, drone removal is usually not done in the spring when the varroa levels are low. Third, if you actually have mating yards, you should be putting drone mother colonies in these yards. Obviously, you wouldn't kill *these drones*. But you aren't really talking about controlled mating anyway, if you are championing the use of feral bees. In my opinion, using feral colonies is resorting to the lowest common denominator and is not a form of bee breeding at all. But I guess I have made that clear in previous posts. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 16:05:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Corn Syrup Research MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit There was a presentation at the recent ABF Conference relating to bee longevity and the comparison to feeding sucrose syrup and HFC. Does anyone know if these were bees in confinement or were they allowed to fly? Perhaps the reduced life span had to do with confinement? Even so this may not be good for us northern beeks? Alden Marshall NH -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 15:27:55 -0700 Reply-To: BEE-L Moderators Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L Moderators Organization: BEE-L Moderators Subject: Re: Corn Syrup Research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following message was submitted to BEE-L and has been edited to conform to the guidelines. --- > There was a presentation at the recent ABF Conference relating to bee > longevity and the comparison to feeding sucrose syrup and HFC. Does anyone > know if these were bees in confinement or were they allowed to fly? I was there and gathered it was in colonies that were allowed to fly. Might need to get the full study from the researcher. Dr. Joseph A. Carson Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 17:27:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Corn Syrup Research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by alaskaheavenlyhoney@HOTMAIL.COM = to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of = previously posted material. ________________________________ From: joe carson [mailto:alaskaheavenlyhoney@hotmail.com] Sent: Sun 2007.02.04 17:22 To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: RE: [BEE-L] Corn Syrup Research I was there and gathered it was in colonies that were allowed to fly. = Might need to get the full study from the researcher. Dr. Joseph A. Carson Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 19:35:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Chemicals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote: ,,,In my opinion, using feral colonies is >resorting to the lowest common denominator and is not a form of bee breeding >at all. It certainly is interesting that the major focus of bee breeding nowadays is breeding back in the survival traits that for many years were ignored in breeding operations. There is more to breeding bees than selecting for a narrow focus of traits pertaining to the beekeepers needs. My strategy is to bring the bee back into balance and allowing the bees to obtain traits for their own needs by permitting the feral population to provide some of the necessary survival characteristics that honeybees need to survive. But there are a few that seem to believe good breeding can only be achieved by those wearing a lab coat. Joe - (thinking, how did the poor beekeeper ever survive the more than 4,000 years of breeding and keeping bees without a lab coat) Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 20:24:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: Corporate Corn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I TOTALLY agree with Allen! I have concerns about marketing honey on the basis of health claims. This may come back to haunt us. Did anyone see the piece in the Berkeley Health News pointing out that any health benefits honey may have are outweighed by the fact that it is a caloric sweetener? They have a point. Not only am I critical of this approach to honey promotion, but I think there are far more honest and powerful ways to increase the value of our profession. There is nothing mysterious behind health eating. Control your intake of calories and spread those calories out across a diverse set of food groups... Health Canada and the USDA have been advocating this for decades. What beekeepers should contemplate is what would be the implications for the beekeeping industry if every American ate what was recommended by the USDA Food Guide Pyramid? I think we would witness huge growth. We eat far too few fruits and vegetables. Fruits and vegetables, particularily the ones we don't eat enough of, require pollination. A diet that is high in refined sugar and fats, by contrast, does not require much pollination. This issue is highlighted by one of my favorate studies is a USDA publication on this subject is: Moving Toward the Food Guide Pyramid Implications for U.S. Agriculture C. Edwin Young and Linda Scott Kantor (look up anything by Linda Kantor... it is all very good) http://151.121.68.30/publications/aib750/aib750t.pdf Go straight to Table 2. If Americans ate what was recommended on the food guide there would need to be a need to increase the amount of fruit and vegetable acres by 6 million acres. That would not only be a good thing for the general health of our citizens, but it would make for a brisk business in pollination. There is also the issue of sustainability and honey: http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=5507 After I wrote this article I discovered that Southwick and Pimintel tackled the same issue at the end of the last oil boom: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0006-3568(198111)31%3A10%3C730%3AEEOHPB%3E2.0.CO%3B2-G I think anybody who is simultaneously worried about their health AND sustainability should cut out all their refined sugar and substitute ALL those recommended 12 daily teaspoons of caloric sweetener with honey. We would sell more honey, people would be healthier and it would take far fewer non-renewable energy to sweeten our cookies. Slam dunk! The challenges of getting to this point are enormous. I once saw a figure that at the peak of the 'Five A Day' fruit and vegetable propomotion campaign they spent $2 million on advertising. This is about the same amount that Altoid mints spends and dwarfs in comparision to the ad budgets of McDonalds or Coca-Cola. Regards, Adony -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 20:33:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: HFCS (was Organic foundation) In-Reply-To: <45C62463.2020408@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell mentioned that "...Add to that, there are two different enzyme produced HFCS and, if you do not know what you are buying, you will harm your bees." Therefore the logical development to aid in identification of what would be acceptable to beekeepers: "Bee Grade HFCS". Regards, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 21:41:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Who is serving Whom? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen Write: >>I have to say, from where I sit, that you are exactly right. A good >>beekeeper serves the bees and in turn they serve him/her. PB Writes: >From where I sit, I see just the opposite. A good beekeeper makes sure the >bees serve him/her. That is, if he's trying to make a living out of it. At great risk of another severe lashing, I fear that I must agree here with Allen on this one. >From where I sit, a good beekeeper makes sure the bees can serve themselves and survive, by making selection of ‘bees needs traits’ essential for survival. Better balanced with essential traits, the beekeeper can then breed the economic traits needed for the bees in return to serve the beekeeper. Joe, thinking, why do we need to make slaves out of bees instead of partners? Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 21:00:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Feral bees In-Reply-To: <45C47472.2030400@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman supplied links to several interesting sites relating to Biometric analysis. "...You can learn how to do this for yourself using a negative or slide scanner to generate the high definition images, then there are several alternative software packages that can do the rest of the process." Various computer programs will indicate with varying degrees of usefulness raw data material. Once this has been collected, the problems arise for the average individual (or more correctly - for me!). What has to be done to translate the figures into a form that allows conclusions to be drawn. It's the maths! What do I really need to know? Then having been able to decide that, which statistical formula is used? Breeding queens, using chosen bee type to gain a high honey yield, V.j. suppression or whatever, requires selection. Crude massal selection from apiaries is often suggested. Is this the path to take to approach the ever shifting gold pot? Or, Pluck out the best colonies, measure, compute and breed from? If the latter is involved, then there is as far as I am concerned room for a text that lists, explains the statistical methods involved with indications on drawing useful conclusions. Regards, Peter PS:(03/02/2007) Temp. fell to -40.2 degrees Celsius here (Pembina valley, Manitoba) last night. No wind thank goodness. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 21:06:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Berseth Subject: Will Bees Chew Through Nylon String MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Will bees chew through nylon string or fishing wire? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 00:34:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Corporate Corn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Adony & all, I guess you have not heard about the new research being presented by a MD about the honey diet. Yep you eat a teaspoon a day and lose weight! The MD is related to a member of the Adee family ( Jerry Brown). I have been on the diet for three days but no weight loss yet and I just came from a super bowl party. Chips & dip and all the foods & drinks not on the USDA food pyramid! I am getting ready right now for my nightly dose of honey before bed! Those at the ABF convention either heard the lecture or visited the booth.( also researcher from Scotland at the booth) Maybe the good doctor which said he was at the ABF convention will comment? Off to take a teaspoon of honey and lose weight while I sleep! I am serious! Never was big on exercise! My kind of diet. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 21:21:38 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: Corporate Corn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "I guess you have not heard about the new research being presented by a = MD about the honey diet. Yep you eat a teaspoon a day and lose weight!" =20 Hey Bob, Its the "Hibernation Diet" (Google it), and the dose is a tablespoon, = not a teaspoon! (37 grams to be precise). This concept has the potential = to turn our industry around provided we link the consumption to local = varietal honey, not supermarket, blended, imported, sterilised, = dehumidified, neutralised, dewhateverised, real honey "substitute". = These guys have pulled a gem out of their sporran and its now up to us = to polish it! PeterDetchon=20 (in Western Australia, where temps have been into the forties, = (centigrade plus), for days in a row, and bushfires are making life = difficult for beekeepers and bees alike.) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:13:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Will Bees Chew Through Nylon String In-Reply-To: <477904.91812.qm@web33203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John > Will bees chew through nylon string or fishing wire? I've seen plenty of bees trying, I don't think I have seen an example of their success. I have come across the odd strand of nylon sticking out of a comb, but in most cases I have put that down to physical damage during beekeeper manipulation. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:08:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Feral bees In-Reply-To: <45C69DBD.50007@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter > Various computer programs will indicate with varying degrees of > usefulness raw data material. > Once this has been collected, the problems arise for the average > individual (or more correctly - for me!). This is where working as a group is helpful, some in a group are better at statistics than others, some are happy to do the wing scanning, so a natural division of labour occurs, with each suited to the task in hand. > What has to be done to translate the figures into a form that allows > conclusions to be drawn. That depends on what bees you are dealing with and what particular characteristics you are trying to discriminate... An easy example is the scattergram... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/scattergram.html This allows two dimensional plotting of CI & DS giving a spacial spread of data, that in turn makes visual recognition by humans, much easier (this tool is mostly of use in discrimination between AMM and other types). > It's the maths! > What do I really need to know? I did allude to the fact that some of the data analysis is tedious, but you have to use a method that is suited to the task in hand (generally this varies which variables are being compared). I thought that the modern versions all had their own built-in calculating ability. The morphometry is only used as a confirmation. morphometry on it's own will give you a set of measuring tools and methods of analysis. You apply this measurement to colonies that you have selected from the intensive data that has been kept on each colony, in order that you can say I have a colony with XYZ characteristics that also lies within the racial type of the bee we wish to propagate. When you have done this with a large number of promising colonies, you will be in a position to make choices about further steps in the breeding program. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 07:46:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Corporate Corn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adony Melathopoulos wrote: >The challenges of getting to this point are enormous. The idea that beekeepers need to "educate' the public is a very old idea -- one that won't go away -- but the public is fickle. The information is available, it is up to the public what they want to do with it. The NY Times Magazine had a long article on Jan 28 about how our food has been ruined by nutritional science. QUOTE: Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants. That, more or less, is the short answer to the supposedly incredibly complicated and confusing question of what we humans should eat in order to be maximally healthy. I hate to give away the game right here at the beginning of a long essay, and I confess that I’m tempted to complicate matters in the interest of keeping things going for a few thousand more words. I’ll try to resist but will go ahead and add a couple more details to flesh out the advice. Like: A little meat won’t kill you, though it’s better approached as a side dish than as a main. And you’re much better off eating whole fresh foods than processed food products. That’s what I mean by the recommendation to eat "food." -- pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 08:12:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Chemicals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit J. Waggle wrote: >It certainly is interesting that the major focus of bee breeding nowadays >is breeding back in the survival traits that for many years were ignored >in breeding operations. First, developing varroa resistant bees is not "breeding back in" since European honey bees *never* had this trait strongly enough to begin with. Developing varroa resistant bees therefore is going forward to a better bee. Survival was not ignored, in any case. Inbreeding, which is an important cause of loss of viability, has been thoroughly studied and is a factor which any bee breeder seeks to avoid. Traits such as disease resistance, wintering ability, etc. have always been sought. High levels of productivity can never be obtained with weak, inbred bees. Nobody wants bees that have to be mollycoddled. -- pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 06:53:08 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Morphometry as a Tool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The morphometry is only used as a confirmation. morphometry on it's own > will give you a set of measuring tools and methods of analysis. You apply > this measurement to colonies that you have selected from the intensive > data that has been kept on each colony, in order that you can say I have a > colony with XYZ characteristics that also lies within the racial type of > the bee we wish to propagate. If I'm reading that right, it looks to me as if you are saying that morphometrics is only good for comparison and selection within a known population of honey bees. If so, by extension, I would see that as suggesting that the technique is not well suited to identifying the race of unknown samples of honey bees. Can you expand a bit on what you are saying and clarify that point? Thanks. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:58:29 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: die off related? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...i came across this. note the last bit where it says: "When the two strains meet, confusion results. The killer bee queen stops producing eggs and eventually starves to death through lack of attention from the worker bees, which become reluctant to forage for nectar. This leads to the colony dying out." it was hard to take anything "hard" from this article, but this seemed an interesting interpretation of what was going on. http://www.theherald.co.za/herald/news/n10_05022007.htm deknow -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:04:11 -0500 Reply-To: brian.j.gallagher@comcast.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Gallagher Subject: Re: Will Bees Chew Through Nylon String In-Reply-To: <477904.91812.qm@web33203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will bees chew through nylon string or fishing wire? Yes, I have been removing colonies from houses for 10 years. I use heavy nylon string to hold the feral comb into deep frames. If I leave the old comb in too long they will chew through it in several spots. Using a dial caliper I measure the string diameter as about 0.030", maybe a little less. It is a multi-strand twisted string with a stiffness that makes stringing the comb with rubber coated Beekeeper gloves easier. Several weeks and it's OK, after a month or so, they have chewed through it. I have used up almost the whole spindle (thousands of feet) and can't find a replacement. Brian Gallagher Earlysville, VA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:16:31 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Wesley Voigt Subject: Re: Corporate Corn (bread) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Like so many things, it seems like so many people want to have someone to blame for their problems. I believe that it is the responsibility of the individual to make their own choices on what is "best" for them (even if they are wrong). I get the feeling that instant riots (verbal of course :-)) would occur on bee-L if we had some deciding how we kept our bees. Lets talk about bees so I can continue to improve my beekeeping - If I want to talk about the evils of white bread, Walmart, and advertising, I will go to other places for that. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 09:15:51 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Corporate Corn (bread) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Like so many things, it seems like so many people want to have someone to > blame for their problems. I believe that it is the responsibility of the > individual to make their own choices on what is "best" for them (even if > they are wrong). Very true, and making choices requires good information. These days, old ideas are being proven to be very wrong daily, and there is a lot of misinformation to confuse issues, so decision making is difficult. BEE-L is place where we can exchange information with people of similar interests who we know and trust (or not) from their writing, and often from personal contact that resulted from meeting on the list. > I get the feeling that instant riots (verbal of course :-)) would occur > on bee-L if we had some deciding how we kept our bees. Well, we do have some deciding how we are permitted to keep bees. There is legislation and enforcement, and peer pressure. If you felt like keeping skeps or gum hives--a prefectly valid and historically proven method--how would that work out? Mostly, the riots happen when someone, even quite legitimately, tries to limit discussion. There are times when such limits make sense, but everyone has his own idea of what should be allowed and what should not. The owner's the owner, and he has final say when things go too far, and that is how it should be. He is a reasonable man). > Lets talk about bees so I can continue to improve my beekeeping We do and I hope our contributions help you do so. If not, please feel free to add me (and Bill) to your killfile. > If I want to talk about the evils of white bread, Walmart, and > advertising, I will go to other places for that. Good. And you can hit the delete button if you think the article you are reading strays to far from beekeeping--Like this article and the one you just submitted and to which this is a reply. As for me, I'm for letting discussions roam a bit, as long as the central theme is beekeeping, or close, or looks as if it will return shortly to relevance, and things are civil. Frankly, human and bee diets, HFCS, sugars, and the effects on bees, humans, and the environment are pretty important to beekeepers, and we tend to have a unique slant, since our interests do tend to be a little off-centre. As for globalization, advertising and food promotion, these are topics with heavy impacts on beekeepers, both in everyday life, and as marketers of honey. I don't recall anyone having mentioned Wal-Mart lately, but Wal-Mart is an important buyer of honey, and one which has started pressure towards guarantees of quality, so maybe we need a new thread on that one. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:27:13 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Winter moves Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>A beekeeper recently asked me about moving hives a short distance (possibly 10-50') in the wintertime. >From my experience, bees will orient to the new location but still will visit the old site for several days. Before sundown, they will be back to the new location unless other colonies had been left near the old site. Then, they may join the nearby colonies which may leave the original colonies badly depopulated. Your friend may also want to consider moving hives only on good flying days in the winter to prevent any disturbed bees from freezing to death away from the cluster. Waldemar Long Island (where we've gotten very cold days and nights this week...) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:35:56 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Morphometry as a Tool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen > it looks to me as if you are saying that morphometrics is only good for comparison and selection within a known population of honey bees. If so, by extension, I would see that as suggesting that the technique is not well suited to identifying the race of unknown samples of honey bees. Morphometry can be used for fine detail within a closed population or to classify unknown samples into racial groupings, the measurements taken will be different for the two purposes, but both approaches are possible. I have caused some of the confusion as I am normally dealing with populations of bees that are already well known and documented as far as racial typing is concerned, whereas in USA there are a great many more possibilities as to race and sub races. Morphometry is no 'magic bullet' and should never be the final arbiter in decision making. Because of the very high incidence of crossings among what were never 'certified pure' stocks in the first place, there is a difficulty determining 'race' in US bees, but if sample numbers are high and the number of bees within the sample is also high, the first pass of morphometric examination, may or may not show clear cut results, but this first lot of data would at least show the way to further tests that would refine some of the detail. Any morphometry project is only as good as the database that it is founded upon, In Europe we use Ruttner's well established data and still argue over some of the fine details, but if you are trying to identify something like AHB, you will need a database that has been developed from colonies that are known to be AHB by behaviour that can be traced back to Kerr's experiment. I was going to try and apply morphometry to the feral bee stocks that have been mentioned a lot lately, but I fell at the first hurdle... There is nothing specific to bees that are living in the wild (feral), simply because bees are well able to survive without beekeeper intervention and being 'in the wild' is nothing special. I think that all the measuring would show is that such stocks tend towards an average or lowest common denominator. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 07:33:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Will Bees Chew Through Nylon String In-Reply-To: <477904.91812.qm@web33203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've "wired" my frames with monofilament fishing line, both 6 lb test and 30 lb test. The bees "ate" through each kind of line at the point where the line ran through the wood frame. But this occurred mostly when the nectar flow subsided or when I kept that super on too long waiting, and hoping, to see if there was anything more to the flow. Beside eating the fishing line, they had also nibbled away a good portion of the wax foundation and used it elsewhere. There were, however, some frames that the bees drew out and filled up and gladly accepted without any problem, but this was earlier during the nectar flow. My thought is this: if the flow is on, they'll cover them up and accept them. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:15:34 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Morphometry as a Tool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > it looks to me as if you are saying that morphometrics is only good for > > comparison and selection within a known population of honey bees. > If so, by extension, I would see that as suggesting that the technique is > not well suited to identifying the race of unknown samples of honey bees. > Morphometry is no 'magic bullet' and should never be the final arbiter in > decision making. > Any morphometry project is only as good as the database that it is founded > upon, In Europe we use Ruttner's well established data and still argue > over some of the fine details, but if you are trying to identify something > like AHB, you will need a database that has been developed from colonies > that are known to be AHB by behaviour that can be traced back to Kerr's > experiment. Thanks for confirming what I suspected, Dave. As I maybe mentioned here previously, on a vist to the ARS lab in Tucson, several years back,I learned (and observed) that they are using a morphometric technique as a primary method of AHB detection, and checking samples sent from all over. This surprised me, since my impression had been that the technique is limited by the factors you so clearly explained above. That having been said, and knowing the limitations, I might suggest that those in the US wanting to do such analysis or have it done, might contact The Carl Hayden Research Centre. They are very friendly and there to serve. http://ars.usda.gov/main/site_main.htm?modecode=53-42-03-00 allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 17:58:12 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Morphometry as a Tool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alen, Are you ignoring what dave said Quote: Morphometry can be used ....... to classify unknown samples into racial groupings, Quote > As I maybe mentioned here previously, on a vist to the ARS lab in Tucson, > several years back,I learned (and observed) that they are using a > morphometric technique as a primary method of AHB detection, and checking > samples sent from all over. This surprised me, since my impression had > been that the technique is limited by the factors you so clearly explained > above. Isn't what ARS were doing just what Dave has said was possible to be done? Screening an unknown sample into a racial group? Ruary -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 09:49:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: NYS State Apiarist Position Open MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It looks like we may have a State Apiarist in our future, here in NY. The position was posted about a week and a half ago. I a little surprised that no one else has posted this info here. Thoughs interested parties need to get their resumes in to NYS Ag & Mkts, Albany before March 5th. Good luck. Mark --------------------------------- Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:42:13 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Morphometry as a Tool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Are you ignoring what dave said > Morphometry can be used ....... to classify unknown samples into racial > groupings, I hope not. Dave wrote a carefully crafted, carefully qualified appraisal of the abilities and limitations of the technique, in his (IMO expert) opinion. Unfortunately, in quoting his words, you left out the qualification, and then, later, also omitted the subsequent discussion by him of those qualifications. To me these were the most meaningful parts, and exactly the reasons I am skeptical about many applications (misapplications) of morphometry. After all we all know that morphometrics has good uses--Dave pointed them out--but many tend to ignore the limitations of this tool, and try to use morphometrics to reach conclusions that require greater precision than may be possible, due to the difficulty in calibration--in absence of known and double-verified samples of the whole population (or populations) being examined, or even a full understanding of the entire make-up of those populations Dave said, "within a *closed* population (emphasis mine) or to classify unknown samples", also, "Any morphometry project is only as good as the database that it is founded upon", and "if you are trying to identify something like AHB, you will need a database that has been developed from colonies that are known to be AHB by behaviour that can be traced back to Kerr's experiment". > Isn't what ARS were doing just what Dave has said was possible to be done? > Screening an unknown sample into a racial group? Maybe, but I have strong reservations about the reliability of such an effort. What I wonder about, and what made me a bit surprised, was that I really doubt that Dave's conditions have been met. Does such a database exist, and how good is it? I leave it to you and others to re-read what Dave said, and perhaps Dave will say if he thinks I misundertood or ignored his expanation. I thought what he said was clear enough, and that I understood, but perhaps not. Thanks for questioning. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 19:45:44 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Morphometry as a Tool In-Reply-To: <45C74EDC.6060400@lineone.net> >...it looks to me as if you are saying that morphometrics is only good for comparison and selection within a known population of honey bees. If so, by extension, I would see that as suggesting that the technique is not well suited to identifying the race of unknown samples of honey bees. Oh yes, it does. It depends on which kind of morphometric method you choose. > Morphometry is no 'magic bullet' and should never be the final arbiter > in decision making. But pretty close. See abstract bellow. Abstract from Eurbee 2006. EUROPEAN BEES, THEIR MORPHOLOGY AND MICROSATELLITES Frantisek Kaspar1, Tomas Kott2, Kvetoslav Cermak1, Dalibor Titera1 1Bee Research Institute at Dol, E-mail beedol©beedol.cz 2Research Institute of Animal Production, Prague - Uhríneves, E-mail kott.tomas©vuzv.cz The protection and use of bees´ gene pool in special programs, in rearing and in beekeeping practice cannot omit the description of the belonging to races. The description of gene types were afore based only on pedigree records and phenotypical, morphometric analysis. The new feature for the genotype description is the microsatellite analysis. DNA was isolated from of worker bees conserved after the taking by drying, freezing or by inserting into 75% ethanol. Isolation was carried out on ABI 3100 Nuclei Acid Preparation Station using NucPrep™ Chemistry method. The analysis was based on tests of 14 locuses assembled in four multiplexes [A29, Ap33, Ap36, Ap43],[Ap1, Ap12, Ap55],[ A37, A7, A8],[Ap113, Ap16, Ap19, Ap34]. In this way 600 bees were analysed various geographical races [carnica, mellifera, ligustica] from various regions. The applied method offers data for very detailed discrimination of distances among populations. The results were compared and completed by morphometric analysis of wings using DAWINO method. The method of microsatellite analyzes is a good tool for very detailed discrimination of distances among populations. http://www.beedol.cz/ http://www.beedol.cz/dawino/DAWINO_prosp_EN.pdf http://www.beedol.cz/dawino/DAWINO_protocol_EN.pdf And the poster !!! http://www.quicknet.se/home/q-119076/BONUS/1-bonus.html -> Avel -> DAWINO; see point 5 \vov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:58:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: mating hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings: I'm presently building small mating hives. I am familiar with Apedia etc. I reread Jay Smith's book on queen rearing several times. In the book he states the following: Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Morphometry as a Tool In-Reply-To: <45C78968.24793.14897B00@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Olda Vancata wrote: >> ...it looks to me as if you are saying that morphometrics is only >> > good for comparison and selection within a known population of honey > bees. If so, by extension, I would see that as suggesting that the > technique is not well suited to identifying the race of unknown > samples of honey bees. > > Oh yes, it does. It depends on which kind of morphometric method you > choose. > My experience with Tony Jadczak and identifying AHB, was different when he started and got more refined and much more complex as time went along. So we may be speaking about an evolving discipline, rather than a fixed method. What Allen observed several years ago may not be what is being done now. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 17:12:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Bob in Hibernation MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit BoB: Just 1 teaspoon? You need to increase your exercise:>) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:35:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bob in Hibernation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BoB: > Just 1 teaspoon? You need to increase your exercise:>) I am going to increase the amount of honey tonight to a tablespoon. Still no weight loss this morning but after the super bowl party I expect the effect of the honey last night would be hard pressed to provide weight loss. My friend asks: How many shots of 100 proof Yukon Jack (Canadian honey based liqueur) would it take to equal a tablespoon of honey? Also would it not be better to exceed the required tablespoon rather than risk going under the required tablespoon of honey? He also asks what if he loses count of the shots half way through. Does he guess which shot he was on or start counting all over again? bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:34:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: History of Breeding Resistant Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Joe Waggle writes: > It certainly is interesting that the major focus of bee breeding nowadays is breeding back in the survival traits that for many years were ignored in breeding operations. The search for disease resistance goes back many years. In the American Bee Journal from January 1937, there's a story about efforts to develop bees resistant to American Foulbrood. The work was being done at the Iowa Ag. Experiment Station by O. W. Park, Frank Pellet. In March of that year, Charles Mraz outlined his efforts to develop resistant strains. He writes: "Prevent inbreeding and increase cross-breeding, not necessarily between different races, but between different hardy strains of the same race. Nature abhors inbreeding ..." Pellet comments on Mraz's article, saying: "we found resistant stock in all three of the races commonly kept and we also found susceptibility in all three races. Once resistant stock becomes generally distributed we are likely to hear much less about disease." It is true that the availability of antibiotics put "resistant bees" on the back burner. It was revived again with the onset of varroa, and its rapid development of immunity to chemicals. A lot of us "old timers" look back at the 1970s as the Golden Age of beekeeping. At least as early as 1994, mite resistance is mentioned in Bee-L: "Dr. Marla Spivak has shown that mite tolerance is a recessive gene which means that the trait must be constantly managed in bee lines to maintain it." Since 1997, Dr. Tom Rinderer and the USDA Baton Rouge Bee Lab have been importing, propagating, and developing a number of lines of Russian honeybees in order to breed bees resistant to varroa. -- pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:59:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Morphometry as a Tool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, In either the March or April 2006 American Bee Journal I did an article on AHB in Florida. You can clearly see the set up for testing morphometry from the pictures I have taken. The article provides an easy to understanding of the steps involved. 1. you need the computer program.( CD-ROM) 2. you need the slide with the known bee race three parts(AHB , Italian or others) 3. you need a screen to project the slides. To test for AHB: You need 10 sample bees. You dissect the three needed parts from each sample and place on 10 slides. Then you mouse click on many points and enter information into the computer ( this part can be done by math) Once all ten samples are entered into the computer then a number figure is given. The number given by the program is compared to a number on a chart and the degree of africanization is determined. Time consuming I found as I did some testing myself. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 19:48:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: BEE-L] mating hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings: Somehow the first posting lost some of the words so here is the correct form I'm presently building small mating hives. I am familiar with Apedia etc. I reread Jay Smith's book on queen rearing several times. In the book he states the following: Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: History of Breeding Resistant Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Another great post Peter! I love this history and I am glad you see value in dusting this work off for another look. The remarkable thing about the program that Frank Pellet and Dadant got off the ground in 1935 was how quickly their population responded to selection. The history of this program is covered briefly in the newest edition of Laidlaw and Page. It is reviewed in much more detail by: Rothenbuhler, W. C. 1958. Genetics and breeding of the honey bee. Annu. Rev. Entomol. 3: 161-180. Spivak, M. and M. Gilliam. 1998. Hygienic behavior of honey bees and its application for control of brood diseases and varroa; Part I. Hygienic behavior and resistance to American foulbrood. Bee World. 79(3): 124-134. I have often wondered how to square the moderate-low heritability of hygienic behaviour with the rapid increase in AFB-resistance in the breeding program Pellet started. One obvious difference is that Pellet's assay was a to put a 2 x 2.5 inch insert of AFB-infected comb into each prospective breeder. With a different assay it was likely that their selection "net" may have "dragged" in a number of other more heritable AFB- resistant traits... thus the rapid gain. This is of interest to me because it suggests that their may be considerable fruits to be picked by taking a second look at other AFB-resistance traits. I know of one excellent attempt, which was tragically cut short, to look at AFB- resistance in larvae. The preliminary work demonstrated considerable differences between two commercial bee stocks in Denmark (the heritability of this difference remains unknown). http://www.planteinfo.dk/bier/tolerance.pdf It is indeed interesting how breeding for disease-resistance has again entered onto the stage. The ABJs in the 1940s are a veritable battle of opinions for and against breeding vs. sulfa. Sulfa won the day. The last report from the aforementioned breeding program is in 1949, when it seems to have disolved into a hybrid breeding program... anyone know the rest of this story? Steve Taber was an avocate of breeding for hygienic behaviour, and then Dr. Spivak renewed this work in the 1990s with some absolutely top-rate research. The revival is in full swing. The lack of interest to date may have to do with the low priority AFB- resistance has among beekeepers. Denis van Englesdorp was the first to demonstrate to me how little interest there was. In 2000 he surveyed Ontario beekeepers. He gave them 100 points to allocate among a number of important traits. While they allocated 35 points to honey production and 10 points to varroa resistance, AFB resistance garnered a measley 7 points (behind overwintering ability, reisistance to tracheal mites, and more-or- less tied with spring build up). I suspect AFB-resistance has moved up in importance, but nonetheless it has a way to climb in the eyes of the beekeeping industry before queen breeders give it attention, particularily given its moderate-low heritability of HB. van Engelsdorp, D. and G. W. Otis. 2000. Application of a modified selection index for honey bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae). J. Econ. Entomol. 93(6): 1606-1612. I do not, however, believe that economics should be the only thing deciding whether a trait is bred for. There is an arguement that the decision to give up line breeding in corn in favour of hybrids was not a biologically-based decision, but rather one based on the fact that investment was more readily raised for the latter because the F2 are not- viable. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1132/is_v38/ai_4325182/pg_1 Thanks again Peter for brining this topic up. Adony -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 22:15:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Morphometry as a Tool In-Reply-To: <45C74EDC.6060400@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave et al, Many thanks for the discussion and comments. You have highlighted the problems that I was going to touch upon with my less that journalistic skills! Beekeeper sitting at home wishing to select better bees: Biometric measurements when undertaken will result in data. Simple; just measure, collate, compute and conclude. Beekeeper sitting at home who has tried to select better bees: These types of measurements may result in confusion - lots of data that is effectively useless. Hives that produce required features are noted, maybe put together in an apiary and eventually picked over to give up their microscopic secrets. Result: A scatter diagram that is a hit shotgun target at 500 metres. Maybe a unimodal curve with an average of 50% plus or minus 20. If selection has then to be based on more subjective items and scores and an individual is lucky, favoured characters will appear in the next generation. If not, they are diminished or lost. As Dave appeared to suggest, most bees in colonies are hybrids to the n'th degree. Measurements that result from such stocks are not going to indicate classic shapes or angles. Therefore for my bees, I need to gain a large indicative standard data base from which I can keep trying to replicate over different generations. Not having the luxury of others to apply the maths for me - a text is required for those who wish to proceed on their own. Allen introduced the situation relating to AHB - Bees with indicative behaviour traits but originally unknown biometrics. Applying biometric analysis to an unknown organism is different to applying analysis to one that has never been studied. The former gives data that may be correlated to previously collected data, then positioned into a set. The latter requires a novel data set to be created. When the "new" creature is then showing loose, unclear or overlapping characters - Biometric analysis maybe a liability if taken as the final arbitrator. Conclusion IMHO - score card with 1 to 10 and biometric measurements maybe used in tandem as long as one has friends with stats. skills and they are willing to devote time to ones selection objectives. Thanks again, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:40:51 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: BEE-L] mating hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I reread Jay Smith's book on queen rearing several times. > In the book he states the following: > in > through it and cause abscond. Not having read the book in question, I am answering from my own experiences. First up how small is small? What size nuc, what size frames and how many? I use what I call mini nucs which is four (4) nucs in a box which are separated by metal divides. It would hold six (6) normal length frames but we run the frames the other way. It is based on the experiences over many years of Norm Rice, now retired, who was one of the most innovative queen bee breeders in Australia. Each nuc holds three (3) frames which are full depth ( about 9 inches) and half length ( about 9 1/2 inches). They hold together very well. To winter, I just pull out the divides and run it as a 12 frame nuc with one queen. Each nuc has a ventilation hole about one (1) inch wide with mesh with two(2) mm holes over it. The entrance is down the bottom and is about one (1) inch long and about 3/8 inch high. I believe the ventilation is necessary to assist the bees. How climate is probably hotter than ours. At present we are getting days around 33-36 degrees centrigrade and nights about 20-23. > What's the opinion out there from your experience nowadays > Are ventilators necessary or is the -half inch entrance hole on an angle > in > the middle as he states -enough. Is this entrance in the middle, meaning height wise? If so, I would recommend that you have the entrance at floor level. If the entrance is half way up the side, then the bees find it very hard to get rid of hive debris and any water will pond in the bottom of the nuc. If it is at floor level, they can remove debris very easily and water runs out. FWIW. Trevor Weatherhead Hoping you have looked at www.apimondia2007.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 08:18:19 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Morphometry as a Tool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First I am not disputing Dave's expertise, I know Dave quite well from Gormanston. I think we have to revisit what he did say. What I understand Dave to say is that Morphometry can be used for TWO purposes the first is Morphometry can be used for fine detail within a closed population and the second is to classify unknown samples into racial groupings, further he goes on to to say that the measurements taken will be different for the two purposes, but both approaches are possible. What we are dealing with is the second use. Dave goes on to say if you are trying to identify something like AHB, you will need a database that has been developed from colonies that are known to be AHB by behaviour that can be traced back to Kerr's experiment. ARS would be able to develop the database by the measuring of colonies which were tainted by AHB, after all that is how Ruttner must have developed his criteria for the European races. Ruary > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:26:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Morphometry a clarification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I will try to straighten out things by describing in general terms how Morphometry can be used and the accuracy that can be expected. First of all, Morphometry is the precise study of anatomical characters by measurement. Morphology is merely the study of form and structure, although the word is often wrongly used to imply morphometry. If our objective is to sort unknown colonies of bees into racial types, there are various characters that can be measured that we already have databases for. (many of these characters can be viewed on... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/morphometry.html tools that are helpful are on... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/morphometrytools.html If your objective is to discriminate AHB from EHB, then the basic database is not enough, because the small body size of AHB overlaps the lower region of sizes that is also common to Ligustica, the genes of which are prevalent in US bee populations. Some very detailed studies have been done of island populations of AHB, to the extent that they can tell which village the colony came from, but a database of this type is only of any use on the island concerned. When two populations have portions of data that overlap we need to extend the database to include more characters in the measurements (things like inter-joint distances on legs, relationships of all wing veins) so that we can build an additional portion to the database. I say this glibly, because the amount of work involved is enormous and each finding has to be checked back to the original populations to make sure that it is valid. I believe that such morphometric databases do exist in US research labs (I would love to get my hands on them), but the information is very extensive... To check all possibilities for a 50 bee sample runs into hundreds of hours of lab time, so in practice the full ID job is rarely done. Then we come to FABIS If we have reasons to suspect AHB, our suspicions are first aroused by the behaviour of the bees and the colony in general, because the number of cases where AHB is suspected is quite high, and the government establishments are unwilling to invest the full effort required to make a positive identification, a streamlined identification system (fabis) is used which picks a limited number of characters, but because of the limitation an ID can only be made on a probability basis rather than certainty. I believe that cases identified as likely to be AHB were originally intended to be followed up with a full detailed analysis, but in practice, I do not think this happens. Closed or limited populations If we have adequate records of colony data that goes back many generations (of bees) for a limited population that we are already convinced of the racial type. Then we can look at this population to establish other things. Natural selection works right down to a village by village basis, but what can we expect to change in a bee over such short distances ? There are climate, geography, geology, forage that can all vary over short distances and we can map those changes and not on the map the locations of the colonies in our study. We can do a large number of dissections of bees measuring each part as we go. This data in turn can be compared to the map information of climate, geography, geology and forage to see if we can identify changes that match. If such a match is found we can then mount a study to examine that feature in yet more detail. To sum up... If you have a colony with well recorded behaviour, backed up by morphometry using the right database, you can have good confidence in your conclusions. One or the other on their own is not enough. I have not brought in to any of the discussion the use of DNA evidence (because we were talking about Morphometry). In recent years DNA has proved incredibly useful in confirming the high standards that morphometry and behaviour analysis can achieve. The automatic identification of wing vein junctions, coupled with extensive computer calculations can now give good results with much less tedium to the operator, but we should be wary that we do not believe a result just because it has been generated by the computer, everything still needs to be capable of being tracked back to a database that was generated from bee colonies. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 05:07:41 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As for coloration and latitude/altitude changes, might try Alpatov for > some reading, or even old Bergmann and his famous Rule! I'm not familiar with thes people, and I doubt their work is easy for me to find. Could you kindly outline where/when each wrote, whether their work has been corroborated by later writers, and, in a nutshell, what they found? Thanks. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 05:32:44 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It has been said that 1 mite makes for an infested colony. > Also that with a queen bee mating 10-17 times that 1 mating > also makes for technically saying africanized FWIW. But as > you brought up....what does it mean really here in USA? Is > it right or wrong when compared to how looked at in other > countries? That is a good question. I've been present at talks on how the process of Africanization proceeds, so I am acquainted with the theory, at least as much as is known, and as much of that as is told, but wonder: If what is being said is true, then the end point is a foregone conclusion. Much of the US will become africanized, and the rest will have regular and extended visits from AHB via the migratories. So, it seems to me that the solution is to tame the AHB, rather than fight it. Where did I read or hear that the reason that the AHB in Tucson are now less problem than when they first arrived was that the troublemaking swarms/hives were immediately killed, whereas the less troublesome ones were not detected and thus left alone. This selection, over a decade or more, apparently had a noticeable effect, so it seems that they respond to selection pressures fairly quickly, as expected. Maybe there is too big an investment in existing stocks, or a simple adversion to anything africanized, but if you cannot beat them, why not join them? There seem to be a lot of good characteristics there. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 08:14:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: History of Breeding Resistant Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adony Melathopoulos wrote: >I do not, however, believe that economics should be the only thing deciding whether a trait is bred for. No, I don't either. I was taking the position of the average beekeeper when I said that the bees should serve the beekeeper. I think there is immense value in the work that has been done to try to preserve and restore native bees in western Europe. Of course, there were no native honey bees here! However, disease resistance and overall vigor has something for everyone, whether you are pushing for maximum profit or just want a few hives in the yard that can survive without a lot of expensive treatments and endless monitoring of pest levels. But in the final analysis, it may be that the future belongs to the beekeepers that stay on the crest of the wave of new ideas. I love to pore over the old books and journals, but I am afraid the solution to today's problems aren't in there. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 14:53:53 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Morphometry a clarification In-Reply-To: <45C857E2.40700@lineone.net> > If your objective is to discriminate AHB from EHB, then the basic > database is not enough, because the small body size of AHB overlaps > the lower region of sizes that is also common to Ligustica, the genes > of which are prevalent in US bee populations. I have a friend who brings to Sweden some bees (dead) from Sao Paulo - Brasil. I've never seen so small bees (with so small vings) in my entire live. > I have not brought in to any of the discussion the use of DNA evidence > (because we were talking about Morphometry). In recent years DNA has > proved incredibly useful in confirming the high standards that > morphometry and behaviour analysis can achieve. What many beekeepers is not thinking on is that morphometry and DNA is both comparative way of testing. Many beekeepers wrongly believe tha DNA is some sort of ultimate truth. \vov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 07:17:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: HFCS (was Organic foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do you have any info re any differences to bees between cane and beet sugar? Thanks for the info, Bob. Still, I'm asking the above question. Allen--I'm moving bees. Will answer soon re HFCS meeting. Randy -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 08:25:48 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Morphometry a clarification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What many beekeepers is not thinking on is that morphometry and DNA is > both comparative way of testing. Many beekeepers wrongly believe tha DNA > is some sort of ultimate truth. That sums it up nicely. In each case, the comparison is only as good as the samples for comparison--and the validity of the assumptions made when labelling them. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:20:06 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mario Pittori Subject: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen Dick wrote If what is being said is true, then the end point is a foregone conclusion.  Much of the US will become africanized, and the rest will have regular and extended visits from AHB via the migratories. So, it seems to me that the solution is to tame the AHB, rather than fight it. unquote I fully agree. However, you seem to be rather lonely with this view, at least so far. And it can be done, tame them, I mean. Maybe change management methods here and there a bit. Less smoke, less banging around of hive parts, etc. quote Where did I read or hear that the reason that the AHB in Tucson are now less problem than when they first arrived was that the troublemaking swarms/hives were immediately killed, whereas the less troublesome ones were not detected and thus left alone.  This selection, over a decade or more, apparently had a noticeable effect, so it seems that they respond to selection pressures fairly quickly, as expected. unquote That makes a lot of sense, as AHB show individuality, therefore, not all need to be super aggressive. Brazil, as well as Mexico to an extent, are quite reasonable examples of it, if one is willing to look. quote Maybe there is too big an investment in existing stocks, or a simple adversion to anything africanized, but if you cannot beat them, why not join them?  There seem to be a lot of good characteristics there. unquote Again, I would say that is it, in a nutshell. They certainly appear to cope well with SHB here. From what I read they can handle varroa in South Africa - East Africa says they do NOT have varroa, we here tend to say we do not really know, could be here. Of course I am biased, living in Africa (Nigeria). Reading a lot about "Killer Bees" before I even came close to any of the local bees made me fear and clouded my vision. Right, they have a temper, but can be handled. What is more, selective breeding should produce gentler bees over a relatively short time span. Against this I have now seen a lot of reasonably tempered bees if approached with some "manners", very healthy and vigorous bees, despite zero treatments, etc. Organic Beekeeping, rather by force of circumstances than choice, but it seems to work well enough. All bees have never been modernized here - I only recently measured some cells when a hive was partially harvested; 4.6 mm for honey cells. I hope to get my hands on another colony soon, including brood cell. mp -- Mario Pittori empilolo@fastmail.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 17:58:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: die off related? In-Reply-To: <20070205.065849.757.880690@webmail37.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit deknow: I don't think so, but like the article for another reason for comparisons. lol Thanks for finding. Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 21:16:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? Comments: To: allen dick In-Reply-To: <029a01c74879$11606080$4d00a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Okay Allen: It has been said that 1 mite makes for an infested colony. Also that with a queen bee mating 10-17 times that 1 mating also makes for technically saying africanized FWIW. But as you brought up....what does it mean really here in USA? Is it right or wrong when compared to how looked at in other countries? As for coloration and latitude/altitude changes, might try Alpatov for some reading, or even old Bergmann and his famous Rule! Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 09:58:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Downsizing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: >>>Where did I read or hear that the reason that the AHB in Tucson are now less problem than when they first arrived was that the troublemaking swarms/hives were immediately killed, whereas the less troublesome ones were not detected and thus left alone. This selection, over a decade or more, apparently had a noticeable effect, so it seems that they respond to selection pressures fairly quickly, as expected.>>>> Allen: This is tantalizing. I am writing something on the subject and touching on this point. I've talked to several people that worked AHB in 4 countries with out gloves/veils. If the source comes to mind, drop us a line, won't you? Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:07:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: Bob in Hibernation In-Reply-To: <003301c74975$e4593000$12bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (snip) I am going to increase the amount of honey tonight to a tablespoon. Still (snip) I read the book. I thought it was a goofy fad diet. I'm not eating mackerel. (yuck) I skipped the "diet" and exercise plan and went straight for the honey. For six months I ate two tablespoons of honey at bedtime and lost 30 lbs. For the next six months I skipped the honey and gained 10 lbs. There is something to it, I think. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:20:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Morphometry a clarification Comments: To: allen dick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > In each case, the comparison is only as good as the samples for comparison--and the validity of the assumptions made when labelling them. Exactly! I have seen samples used in which the clear used had slight runs. The cuts of the samples were not perfect. These slides were sent to a state bee inspector by a bee lab. Also when doing tests there is a margin for human error. When I was running the test to get the feel for the way fabis is done I could feel the margin built into the computer program. Slide the mouse a quarter inch off and the program showed "error". In my opinion the margin was too large ( but what do I know as I am only a beekeeper). Basically when clicking on a wing venenation point and the spot you clicked on was out of the range for A. melifera the program would not take the entry. By playing with the mouse I could see the program would take a margin of human error. The technicians in Florida which use the fabis daily wish only one bee sample needed to be entered into the computer to determine AHB (instead of 10) which would speed up the AHB id process. Jerry Hayes told me the USDA-ARS was working on a field test for AHB genetics which would involve simply grinding up a bee and popping in a vial. Breaking the reagent and shaking. The color of the vial would give a rough idea if AHB. Now for the old commercial beekeeper lighter side way of making a AHB determination: 1. Kick the hive and if the bees boil out then AHB. Chasing you all the way back to the bee truck means those bees need a dose of "pixie dust" and the boxes tossed on the truck right away. 1.a If producing a large honey crop maybe better wait for awhile. 2. If you get a 100 stings on your bee glove trying to get a sample for the bee lab then those bees are AHB and forget the sample. 3. If you get the new reagent test Jerry Hayes speaks of and while waiting for the color reading you get a 100 stings on the hand doing the testing you toss the test device and get out the "pixie dust". I am not sure what "pixie dust" is but from what I hear the hive is dead in a few minutes. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 08:28:16 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? In-Reply-To: <1170775206.17715.1173186035@webmail.messagingengine.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mario Pittori wrote: > I fully agree. However, you seem to be rather lonely with this view, at > least so far. And it can be done, tame them, I mean. Maybe change > management methods here and there a bit. Less smoke, less banging around > of hive parts, etc. "At least so far," is correct. I suggested, here on BEE-L, years ago that the only real solution to the AHB was to apply selective breeding to them. I was pooh poohed then, but the idea is finally catching on. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:09:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Adrian Wenner Subject: bee colony die-off article In-Reply-To: <009b01c749c7$5c115db0$2101a8c0@DF9MK81J> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In yesterday's paper, the Philadelphia Inquirer had an article about the bee colony die-off: Mystery killer silencing honeybees If the die-off continues, it would be disastrous for U.S. crop yields. By Sandy Bauers Inquirer Staff Writer Here's a URL that worked for me: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/16623837.htm The article has a photograph of a bumble bee instead of a honey bee. It looks as if we have some educating to do. Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:20:05 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I fully agree. However, you seem to be rather lonely with this view, at > least so far. And it can be done, tame them, I mean. Maybe change > management methods here and there a bit. Less smoke, less banging around > of hive parts, etc. I suspect there are quite a few beekeepers in the US who are managing bees with a fair percentage of AHB in them, and in some cases, without much change in management. In some cases, they are now pretty much a non-event. In some other areas, particularly newly colonized areas, they are still a problem, and there may be several distinct invasions, some of which are more benign than others. The problem is that AHB in the US has been demonized by authorities, and there is an entrenched position--historical and current--to defend on the part of those who make a career of identifying, discussing and fighting them. I'd say the war against AHB is over and the time for reconciliation with the facts has arrived. allen Warning: Opinion, not necessarily fact -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:57:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? Comments: To: allen dick In-Reply-To: <002e01c749e7$68b3df00$4d00a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen: The information is not hard to find on Alpatov or Bergmann and it should be basic to those into breeding anyways! One can simply go to articles referencing Alpatov with Apiacta even, and for Bergmann and his what I thought "famous" rule simply type in Bergmann's Rule 1847 in search and pull up. For what I wrote about try: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/index.htm For map I took years laying out try: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/therm_map.htm for breeding in basics: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/apiacta1995.htm Now with the map above with sizes in feral layed out with climatic zones..........if one then takes FWIW a simple transparent overlay of natural race/strain breakout from the realworld and put on top you see the latitute bands of color break out from equator to poles, and from sealevel to mountain peak tops FWIW also. Nothing hard to see with straight overlays. Also, pertaining to the feral here in Tucson, we never stopped doing what we were doing and most all beekeepers have kept getting the ferals here though money was seen in condemming them as hot not wanted bees to have around, but this is expansion with housing tracts and commerce and other?, and by saying hot bees and making scenes this is how some operate, aka, pesticide operators and removal people looking for work, etc for money flow, for that time of year is coming upon us again like always does. New law now going thru legislature in Arizona with HB 2306 coincidently since fall and heating up of politics again, is making all ferals in Arizona a nuisance to now be done away with no matter where (though we managed to get the actual hives I hope protected, until next tizzy)......yet, you simply requeen the hot and go on FWIW and what beekeepers have always done.But I guess politics has to heat up again from time to time when it seems some start writing again from time to time. And some are determined that Native bees never existed, and in the wild must be done away with for job security. So the game repeats.So now if ALL feral bees in Arizona become outlaw.....let it become that way too in all other state FWIW, this time I won't stop it nor want to. D- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:04:30 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Corporate Corn (bread) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Obesity in the developed nations is a long, tangled tale of self-interest. (The impact on beekeeping comes and the end of the long tale.) Some could blame two sets of farmers (corn and sugar cane), but these farmers merely acted in their self interest, taking into account the US Government price supports for their crops. I would tend to file the story under "unintended consequences", with the proximate force behind the whole mess being commodity price supports. In the 1950s, US Agriculture Secretary Benson said to farmers, "Get big or get out." (Many people blame Earl Butz for this phrase, but he merely repeated what Benson said 20 years before. Butz's actual contribution to the quote books was the equally heartless phrase "Adapt or die".) So, agribusiness as we know it got going, and they looked at the price support programs, and saw that commodities, like corn, were the safest business decision for them. Problem is, everyone did the same math, and came to the same conclusions. Lots and lots of corn got planted, more every year. Not surprisingly, in the 1960s, corn prices tanked due to a massive over-production of corn. With corn so cheap, it was suddenly looked at as a raw material that could be processed, rather than a food to be simply packaged, preserved and sold. HFCS was developed as a way to make corn more "useful" to the processed-food industry. A corn-based sweetener was "cheaper" than other sweeteners mostly due to the price supports and subsidies for USA corn farmers. (Protectionist sugar tariffs and price supports kept and still keeps the price of sugar higher in the USA than anywhere else on the planet, making HFCS look even cheaper.) Fast-forward to the 70s, when "fat" was targeted as a problem in the diets of US citizens. Suddenly "low-fat" became the maketing mantra of nearly every packaged-food company. But take out the fat, and lots of packaged foods were tasteless as a result. So what to add to get some flavor back into the product? Artifical sweeteners were both expensive, and were tainted with scares over the long-term impact of complex chemistry on humans. (See http://bee-quick.com/reprints/sugar.pdf for a run-down on all the "sweeteners" out there.) The "answer" was HFCS. Cheap, easy to work with, and "stable" in nearly all manufactured food products. Conspiracy theorists note: The "USDA Food Pyramid" and the "USDA Commodities Price Support Program" both come from the same agency. Could it be that economics and price support policy had an impact on health policy? No tin-foil hat is required for this one. The USDA Economic Resource Service says the average annual per-capita consumption of HFCS among US citizen went from zero lbs 1966 to 63 lbs in 2001. During the same period, sugar intake decreased from nearly 100 lbs per person per year in 1966 to 64 pounds in 2001. So, the total sugar consumption per person went from 100 lbs to 127 lbs (63 + 64) from 1996 to 2001. An extra 27 lbs of sugar a year is a big increase in calories, and it simply does not matter if those calories come in the form of sugars (simple carbs) or more complex carbs, like bread. Sugar carries 110 calories per ounce, so 27 lbs would be (110 * 16 * 27) = 47,520 calories! It would take 118 hours on an elliptical trainer to work that extra 27 lbs of sugar off. Given that the cheapest foods are so cheap due to the replacement of more costly ingredients with HFCS, the bulk of that extra per-capita 27 lbs ends up being consumed by the less well-to-do among us. So, for the first time in human history, the well-off are thin, fit and "in shape", while the poor (not having health club memberships) are the fat and out-of-shape ones. It used to be that only the rich could eat well enough and often enough to be fat. The backlash came in the form of the new USDA "Food Pyramid" ( http://bee-quick.com/reprints/pyramid.pdf ) where ALL "added sugars" are condemned, tarring honey with the same brush as HFCS. What the USDA now says about these "added sugars" is: "Added sugars are sugars and syrups that are added to foods or beverages during processing or preparation. This does not include naturally occurring sugars such as those that occur in milk and fruits." Cows get two food groups all to themselves, "meat", and "milk", while bees don't even get credit for making a "naturally occurring sugar". To add insult to injury, cows are credited for naturally occurring sugars in milk! Under these conditions, marketing honey becomes very... difficult. Its enough to almost make one believe that the government should stay out "price supports". -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 17:53:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Smith Subject: Re: Corporate Corn (bread) In-Reply-To: <000001c74a4b$8a97df40$5941edcf@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very concise analysis of our "Green Revolution"-unintended consequences, ie, overproduction, leading to economic ruin in a very few short years. It is probably good some farmers survived, even though they became the cause of the other 'unintended consequences'! I for one like to eat regularly... Just for the record, I have enjoyed the discussions on Bee-L more in the last 3-4 months, and learned a lot--So thanks!! Jim Not that Jim The one on the Border between CA and OR State of Jefferson -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 22:10:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Re: HFCS Bob Harrison comment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: > Part of the problem (as I understand it) involves the trucking. We were > advised to check the temperature of all tanker loads on arrival. Seems > some > coming a long distance have been way too hot causing problems. Bob, what temperatures were experienced? What is considered overheating? Thanks John Horton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:46:34 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mario Pittori Subject: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tom Elliot wrote > "At least so far," is correct.  I suggested, here on BEE-L, years ago > that the only real solution to the AHB was to apply selective breeding > to them.  I was pooh poohed then, but the idea is finally catching on. I rather expected more non-agreeing comments as well. AHB does appear to have some useful genetics. Why not promote those, while "breeding out" excessive defensive traits. Allen Dick wrote > The problem is that AHB in the US has been demonized by authorities, and > there is an entrenched position--historical and current--to defend on the > part of those who make a career of identifying, discussing and fighting them. The media, or perhaps the hype they created about a "killer bee", should be included as well. I sincerely doubt the AHB issue in the US will be resolved on the battlefield (extermination, containment), but rather in the bedroom (selective breeding). -- Mario Pittori empilolo@fastmail.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 05:11:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Apitherapists, Researchers Asked to Join Malaysian Honey Science Network MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Apitherapists, Researchers Asked to Join Malaysian Honey Science Network Welcome to Honey Science Network http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/02/apitherapists-researchers-asked-to-join.html This site would be a common platform where surgeons, physicians, oncologists, gynecologists, dermatologists, microbiologists, dentists, pathologists and complimentary medicine practitioners can share their views on the therapeutic uses of honey. Again, we would like to invite you all to join our team for the development of honey science. Professor Dr Nor Hayati Othman -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:14:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? Comments: To: Dee Lusby Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >For map I took years laying out try: > >http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/therm_map.htm Where did you get the data on cell sizes? Surely, you didn't measure them yourself ... Also, this is a map for Apis mellifera, right? There are other species of honey bee, you know, that have completely different cell sizes. See Eva Cranes's work, for one. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:52:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: HFCS In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed For more on high fructose corn syrup, see: High Fructose Corn Syrup: A Revolution in the Making (Parts I and II )"Bee Culture (June and July 2004), Vol. 132 (5,6) http://www.squidoo.com/Bee_Culture/ Malcolm T. Sanford Professor Emeritus, University of Florida http://beeactor.vze.com 352-336-9744 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 07:56:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: HFCS Bob Harrison comment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello John & All, Bob, what temperatures were experienced? What is considered overheating? We were not given exact temperatures at the meeting but having unloaded many tankers I suspect warmer than 70-80F. Most loads simply feel warm to the touch but I have seen a load or two (mostly in spring) when you can see the heat coming off the HFCS and the HFCS was well over 100F. The problem is the end users have no idea how hot the HFCS was when loaded. Our loads come from the far north of us. Days drive. Also discussed was railroad tanker loads being too hot when moving across country or sitting on a railroad siding. Kind of like overheated honey its hard to tell without testing. I am new to the subject so I am still learning. Off spec has been big this season in California but I can't say a problem in our area. Big losses were seen by a beekeeper but others got HFCS off the same load. At the meeting they lumped off spec in the same category as overheated. To me they should be separate but similar problems. Toxic sugars (subject of my ABJ article) in HFCS is still another problem but a problem which we have known about for over 30 years but ignored. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 23:08:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: $40/lb Hawaiian honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Brian and list, I'd like to address a lot of the specifics you, Brian, brought up, but I don't want to distract from the bigger picture. As I see it, most of your arguments are defending $20-$40/lb honey producers (like the lawyer moved to Hawaii that you provided the link about) on the grounds that the conventional agricultural/food system is messed up. If we ignore any third options, overlook the lack of integrity of your recommended alternative, and make the entire question a simple yes-no referendum on the conventional system, then you'd have a case. So before we get too distracted with the evils of our current system, I want to be clear what I'm saying: one, there are other options besides conventional commodity honey that are at least as viable as $20-$40/lb honey from the far reaches of civilization; and two, $20-$40/lb honey is in no way remotely "sustainable". >So I gather you think this guy is ripping people off and making a fortune to boot? Seems exceedingly obvious to me that the guy is ripping people off. I'm sure you agree, at least implicitly, because I'm sure you don't buy $20/lb green beans, $40/gallon milk, and $60/lb pork, or do you? >Maybe you like the Walmartization of the organic industry better....... Better than what? Than the Starbucksization? Not much of a choice. >Drawing my thoughts from Micheal Pollans new book the Omnivores Dilema I read it, too. A farmers' market customer loaned it to me. A little long- winded, but good stuff, and an entertaining read. You're fundamentally distorting Pollan's argument, though, if you make it out to be an argument for extravagant consumerism among consumers isolated from the sources of their food. In fact, the book was largely about the shallowness of "USDA Organic" and other pastoral marketing gimmicks. It was about connecting with the source, which is practically the opposite of paying $40/lb in New York City in order to feel "safe" about eating honey in consumeristic oblivion. >So my expenses are high and I have a product that is hard to find. Basic economics says it aint going to be cheap. I think some more careful consideration is in order here. First, what's of real value, what's just a shallow marketing advantage, and what's just waste? Then, let's consider which expenses are necessary for producing what's of real value. Let's also consider whether we're trying to ride high on the waves of short-term supply and demand, or whether we're talking about real sustainability, based on producing simple food instead of the latest marketing fad with the most trendy label. >Whats wrong with a beekeeper making a decent living? If you're suggesting we define your "decent living" by the standards of the people that pay $40/lb for honey in New York City, I'll quietly think differently, but to call that standard "sustainable" seems absurd and an afront to real "sustainability". >My guess is you're not doing bees for >a living or you would be aware that profit is very very elusive in this business. I guess that gets back to how we define making "a living" :) >Here this guy is a successful alternative model to the highly leveraged >commercial guy who's competing with chinese honey. How much money did this lawyer take to Hawaii with him? And how many dollars are there to be earned selling $20/lb honey? I don't think you're presenting much of an alternative. Nor do I see any of the righteous appeal you seem to want to ascribe to it. >It gets down to in the end you have some bees and you have a stack of bills to pay. Tell me please >Eric how can I pay my bills and run a "clean" operation with minimal chems etc? Should I go out >on a limb trying to go organic and sell it for $3.00/pound? Maybe the answer is that your bills aren't sustainable. Maybe you can cut out some less profitable parts of your business and supplement your beekeeping income with something else, as opposed to following the monoculture model. At $3/lb honey is still one of my most profitable farm enterprises, and I'm on the organic fringe. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:01:06 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? In-Reply-To: <1170837994.25900.1173336959@webmail.messagingengine.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mario, > I sincerely doubt the AHB issue in the US will be resolved on the > battlefield (extermination, containment), but rather in the bedroom > (selective breeding). I think that consistent destruction of all bad tempered ferals would be a significant part of the selection pressure against the overly defensive genetics. Specific replacement of destroyed ferals, with selected mild manner AHB stock might, also help. Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:40:50 +0000 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: nutrition and minerals in honey In-Reply-To: <033101c7488e$c94ea980$4d00a8c0@Pericles> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 2007-02-04 at 12:00 -0700, allen dick wrote: Have you ever looked at the ingredient list and nutrient profiles of these imitation foods? I have heard modern food called "hollow food". I have often wondered about the effect of mineral depletion in soils on the mineral content of honey from agricultural crops. Minerals seem to be more important than we thought. Has there been any research on this over the years? Here is an extract from a 1936 submission to the US Congress (note as long ago as 1936) The Quality of Today's Food FARM LAND MINERAL DEPLETION AND SENATE DOCUMENT #264 1936 These are Verbatim Unabridged Extracts from the 74th Congress 2nd Session: Senate Document No. 264, 1936 "The truth is that our foods vary enormously in value, and some of them aren't worth eating as food. . . Our physical well-being is more directly dependent upon the minerals we take into our systems than upon calories or vitamins or upon the precise proportions of starch, protein or carbohydrates we consume." "Do you know that most of us today are suffering from certain dangerous diet deficiencies which cannot be remedied until depleted soils from which our food comes are brought into proper mineral balance?" "The alarming fact is that foods (fruits, vegetables and grains) now being raised on millions of acres of land that no longer contain enough of certain minerals, are starving us - no matter how much of them we eat. No man of today can eat enough fruits and vegetables to supply his system with the minerals he requires for perfect health because his stomach isn't big enough to hold them." "This talk about minerals is novel and quite startling. In fact, a realisation of the importance of minerals in food is so new that the text books on nutritional dietetics contain very little about it. Nevertheless, it is something that concerns all of us, and the further we delve into it the more startling it becomes." (N.B. Don't forget this was written in 1934!) "You'd think, wouldn't you, that a carrot is a carrot - that one is about as good as another as far as nourishment is concerned? But it isn't; one carrot may look and taste like another and yet be lacking in the particular mineral element which our system requires and which carrots are supposed to contain." "Laboratory tests prove that the fruits, the vegetables, the grains, the eggs, and even the milk and the meats of today are not what they were a few generations ago (which doubtless explains why our forefathers thrived on a selection of foods that would starve us!)" "No man today can eat enough fruits and vegetables to supply his stomach with the mineral salts he requires for perfect health, because his stomach isn't big enough to hold them! And we are turning into big stomachs." "No longer does a balanced and fully nourishing diet consist merely of so many calories or certain vitamins or fixed proportion of starches, proteins and carbohydrates. We know that our diets must contain in addition something like a score of mineral salts." "It is bad news to learn from our leading authorities that 99% of the American people are deficient in these minerals, and that a marked deficiency in any one of the more important minerals actually results in disease. Any upset of the balance, any considerable lack of one or another element, however microscopic the body requirement may be, and we sicken, suffer, shorten our lives." "We know that vitamins are complex chemical substances which are indispensable to nutrition, and that each of them is of importance for normal function of some special structure in the body. Disorder and disease result from any vitamin deficiency. It is not commonly realised, however, that vitamins control the body's appropriation of minerals, and in the absence of minerals they have no function to perform. Lacking vitamins, the system can make some use of minerals, but lacking minerals, vitamins are useless." "Certainly our physical well-being is more directly dependent upon the minerals we take into our system than upon calories or vitamins or upon the precise proportions of starch, protein or carbohydrates we consume." "This discovery is one of the latest and most important contributions of science to the problem of human health." Here are some URl's for those interested. Anyway a search for articles on mineral depletion in soils will turn these and many others up. http://cancer-info.com/colloidal.htm http://ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=32375 http://observer.guardian.co.uk/foodmonthly/story/0,,1481443,00.html http://www.organicgarden.org.uk/remineralisation/index.htm http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=10587 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:57:25 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: New Book Presents Beekeeping In The Worst Possible Light MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As if we beekeepers don't have enough problems already, there is a new book out that positions beekeeping as one of the basic influences that turned a young German boy into Adolph Hitler. Yeah, Hitler. The guy who brought you the Third Reich, the Holocaust, and the Blitzkrieg. "The Castle in the Forest" by Norman Mailer is fiction, but one need look no further than "The DaVinci Code" to realize that at least the population of the USA tends to misconstrue books clearly labeled "fiction" or "a novel" as a thinly-disguised factual accounts. (I blame the "Faux News"/"Fox Noise" Channel for this.) In the completely fictional account, a minor demon is assigned by the Devil himself to monitor and influence the household of Alois Hitler. The young Adolph Hitler (affectionately called "Adi") lives there too. The demon is the narrator of the story. Alois retires, and starts keeping bees. Beekeeping is not a detail in this book, it is one of the central themes of the book, clearly intended to be considered one of the major influences that turned little "Adi" into the "Adolph Hitler" of infamy. For example, Alois teaches Adi some twisted form of dogmatic pseudo-Darwinian "survival of the fittest" using the bees as the case in point: "....because they obey one law. It is so clear to them. This law says: Our colony must survive. So, nobody can dare to be lazy. Not inside this hive of bees." He paused. "Nobody, except for the drones. They are there to serve their one good purpose. But then it is all over for them. They are gone. Goodbye." "Are they killed?" The boy knew the answer. "Of course. All of those drones. Once a year, right about now - just after summer, they are gotten rid of. No charity." The novel even contains what might have passed for practical beekeeping advice of the time: "....The wise beekeeper does not wear dark clothing, lest it pick up light-colored pollen... Italian bees are gentler and more chic than the Austrian variety... The mating box, capping fork and spur-wheel embedded are essential tools for apiculture... ...all power in the beehive rests with a treacherous but fragrant bitch." At one point Alois gasses one of his hives, fearing it is diseased and (drift? robbing?) will infect his other bee colony. He tells Adi, "In nature, there is no mercy for the weak." Being a beekeeper with a very German name, I expect that I will soon be told with great authority that Hitler was a beekeeper as a child (fiction!) and his experience as a beekeeper is part of what turned him into such a monster. The good news here is that Mailer's book is nearly 500 pages long, and that the majority of people who talk about Mailer's work have never read an entire Norman Mailer book. Another "good" thing is that one must slog through quite a bit of incest and scatological (look that word up, I can't use clearer terms in public) content before one gets to the bee related passages, so many readers are sure to stop reading before they get to "the bees". -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:25:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: HFCS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I replied to Bob about the low pH of HFCS mixes in Calif, I intentionally left out one possible source of contamination, since I have no evidence whatsoever that this actually happened. Since Malcolm posted a link to his article, let me quote a couple of lines: "Although the vast majority of HFCS is produced via enzymes, there continues to be some manufactured by the older technology, acid hydrolysis.10 Some of this material (called in some cases "off spec," and thus rejected by food manufacturers) may still be available and has been found to be damaging to honey bees in Canada. Research by Dr. Rob Currie at the University of Manitoba showed that "although there is a good deal of evidence that off-spec syrup is indeed the culprit in the Manitoba incident (bees dying during the winter), Dr. Currie cannot point to the actual mechanism causing the problem. He does warn beekeepers, however, to be aware of two possible problems in off-spec HFCS: low pH (four or lower), and a colored syrup. Most HFCS is colorless; colored syrup may be an indication that it was manufactured by acid hydrolysis." Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:30:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? In-Reply-To: <45CA05D2.4010208@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tom Elliott: Then why the push within lower states to make all ferals a 100% nuisance statewide for destruction of late, for that certainly isn't picking and choosing? Yet, it is the acclimitized survival type ferals that are being used more and more by hobbysts and sideliners, and yes even commercial (though not big ones) to both get into and stay in business. So why the push in opposite direction officially, for that would make any talk here meaningless....FWIW, until the damage is done and cannot be fixed. Why is mother nature and her bees so fearful here in USA when in Europe I cannot picture it happening....or is it? Dee- ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:59:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: nutrition and minerals in honey In-Reply-To: <1170870050.5434.10.camel@Vigor12> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit james kilty wrote: > I have heard modern food called "hollow food". I have often wondered > about the effect of mineral depletion in soils on the mineral content of > honey from agricultural crops. Minerals seem to be more important than > we thought. Has there been any research on this over the years? > Lots of research. You can have natural mineral depletion since there can be different concentrations of minerals in different locations. All soil is local. I would take some of this with a grain of salt, since if we were really in such dire straits since 1936 there would be a host of dietary diseases directly related to mineral deficiency, but there are not. Instead we are in better health than any time in history. As a cancer survivor, I take much on the Internet with caution since much of it is quackery. There are good sites and most are specific disease related, government, or web md. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:08:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: $40/lb Hawaiian honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 23:08:14 -0500, Eric Brown wrote: If we ignore any third >options, overlook the lack of integrity of your recommended alternative, >and make the entire question a simple yes-no referendum on the conventional >system, then you'd have a case. So before we get too distracted with the >evils of our current system, I want to be clear what I'm saying: one, there >are other options besides conventional commodity honey that are at least as >viable as $20-$40/lb honey from the far reaches of civilization; and two, >$20-$40/lb honey is in no way remotely "sustainable". > Really the guy is turning business away what's not sustainable about his operation? Sounds more stable then most honey for sale operations I know of.... So I'm waiting .......you were being clear .........what then are the options you speak of ? Nothing in your post alluded to any options......... >>So I gather you think this guy is ripping people off and making a fortune >to boot? > >Seems exceedingly obvious to me that the guy is ripping people off. I'm >sure you agree, at least implicitly, because I'm sure you don't buy $20/lb >green beans, $40/gallon milk, and $60/lb pork, or do you? > What is obvious from a cornfield in Iowa is a different reality in NYC. Walk around NYC and see how much real food you find for cheap. Before you start ripping lawyers perhaps you should poll Bee-L ands see how many beekeeps are lawyers. Your generalization on lawyers is kind of juvenile as many are good people and work with all walks of life and for different causes. So I just don't buy your screed that the guy has no ethics because he is a lawyer. >>Maybe you like the Walmartization of the organic industry better....... > >Better than what? Than the Starbucksization? Not much of a choice. > If you knew much about organic food production in the USA you would know that Walmart is the largest seller of organic food and has promised to sell organic at pennies above the other non- organic slop they peddle. Many, many people feel that their push to keep the cost of organic at par with conventional will devalue the organic industry as large corporations start to work the USDA standards and look for, or create with lobbyists loopholes. Please note that these loopholes do not portray the organic ethic embraced by small to medium sized organic growers/producers. So who is ripping off whom? Walmart with their psuedo-organic, lets ride the latest marketing wave or some guy in Hawai who takes care of his employees, produces an organic varietal creamed honey which is hard to find as even a conventional product? >>Drawing my thoughts from Micheal Pollans new book the Omnivores Dilema > >I read it, too. A farmers' market customer loaned it to me. A little long- >winded, but good stuff, and an entertaining read. You're fundamentally >distorting Pollan's argument, though, if you make it out to be an argument >for extravagant consumerism among consumers isolated from the sources of >their food. In fact, the book was largely about the shallowness of "USDA >Organic" and other pastoral marketing gimmicks. It was about connecting >with the source, which is practically the opposite of paying $40/lb in New >York City in order to feel "safe" about eating honey in consumeristic >oblivion. One of the central messages in the Ominvores Dilema is that the cost of food is held artificially low and to maintian that low price the quality has gone down (or the amount of processed food has gone up). Case in point is honey, Has the average retail price of honey changed that much in the last 25 years? Not really. How about the quality ? One could argue its gone down considerably as the price of honey has stayed flat and foriegn honey flooded in. So small beekeeps that produce a raw or organic honey of high quality should do what? I guess your alleged option might clear that up? Obviously selling it cheap as you apperently imply.... would be stupid as our country is awash in bogus honey. You comments about making a living; Eric when or if you move up beyond your sideline operation and pay your bills 365 days a year with your bees maybe we can discuss some of the economics of producing, packaging and marketing honey. Your logic in your post just does not show any business acumen or even a cursory understanding of the issues. What truly baffles me about your disdain for pricey honey is how much the honey/bee industry has struggled in the past 2 decades. If we all are getting a fair price then why has the number of beekeepers in the last 15 years dropped like a rock ? I'm interested to hear your ideas Eric on how to make a FULL TIME living from beekeeping other then going commercial? I'm particularily interested in your production and pricing strategy. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:05:31 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: Re: $40/lb Hawaiian honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Damn, I missed something! Who's getting $40/lb for their Hawaiian honey? Isn't me, that's for sure. I'm making Hawaiian honey, so where can I sign up for the deal of the century? Howard Honolulu, Hawaii -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:18:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Nutrition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I couldn't resist posting on this as I've been researching the disappearing disease. Seems it appeared regularly in AU. On theory was that the poor soil in certain localities provided poor pollen. Bees were helped when their pollen was trapped out of the hive and supplements were fed. One wonders if it could apply in US right now. http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/04-152.pdf will get you started. Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:45:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: AHB (was Downsizing - The Rest of the Story?) In-Reply-To: <45CA05D2.4010208@gci.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7-Feb-07, at 12:01 PM, Tom Elliott wrote: > Specific replacement of destroyed ferals, with selected mild manner > AHB stock might, also help. > > > Hi Tom and all I attended a Queen rearing seminar at the University of Guelph in 1994. One of the speakers was Bob Page. Bob said that he worked for years in South America(Venezuela I think) with AHB and was never able to breed out the defensive traits of these bees. Has this changed? Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W(warmed up to -7C to-day, was -20C last night, sunny with flurries) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:30:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Stealth Small Cell Plastic Frame Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Guys, CS Shaw was measuring cell size on plastic frame/foundation and discovered that Mann Lakes standard plastic frame has a cell size of 4.9mm. It's small cell size. She notes her bees drew out the comb without any more difficulty than other plastic frames. Note: Mann Lakes Pro frame is large cell size. So, there's no more excuse! The only thing easier would be to have someone pour small cell untreated honey in one's mouth :>))) Regards Dennis Thinking some of you guys are small cell beekeepers and don't know it? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---