From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:53:12 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 345B94836B for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFkpIR016612 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:16 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0703A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 281811 Lines: 6126 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:15:32 -0800 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is an old question. I got hung up trying to answer it when asked by a student friend. I got started, but ...Help! > One thing I was hoping to get some insight on right now is surrounding the > idea of domestication. Since humans have had an interest in bees for such > a long time, can these bees be considered domesticated? I'm thinking about > this in terms of artificial homes, bee husbandry, selection and genetics, > which would suggest that they absolutely are. What are your thoughts? Domesticated? That is a real question. I think most beekeepers consider bees to be semi-domesticated, but our hives and management are largely designed to accommodate the bees needs, and to keep them around. After all, they are not fenced, not chained, not hobbled (although some beekeepers clip a bit off the queen's wing to prevent flight), and could abscond or swarm any time, or fail to thrive. As for breeding, there are strains that have been selected or bred and maintained for specific purposes, however many or most of them are not very stable and would revert quickly to a mongrel type in the absence of human management. As well,special hybrid queens are raised and sold. These queens are excellent, as are the colonies they produce, but their daughter queens and their progeny may be undesirable. The concept used to be quite popular, but seems to have passed out of fashion. All that having been said, honey bees do escape regularly and become established in nature quite comfortably in many areas, and are considered feral when they do so, somewhat like wild horses. Previous to the recent arrival of the killer mites, feral bees were well established in many areas of the US and parts of Canada. Some say that the ferals escaped destruction by the mites in some areas, others say that the ferals these days are all recently escaped 'domestic' (managed) bees. Of course North America is a small part of the world, and honey bees of one sort or another are found almost everywhere there is agriculture worldwide. The degree and type of management varies from very sophisticated to simple robbing of wild nests. So, this is not a simple question. ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 08:46:43 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Faith vs Reason - Swarm movement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian: > After all, when a swarm moves through the air, almost all bees are flying > pretty much in circles, being led as a whole by bees that have flown > repeatedly to the target site. That does not explain the behaviour of a swarm during the time when it is clustered and scouts are looking for the new nest site. We can watch dancing scouts trying to recruit for different sites and then gradually coming to a consensus with many bees dancing for the same site (to which the swarm moves - and which we can predict). All this can happen in quite strong winds which would remove any odour trails immediately - or even light winds which would, presumably, send bees off in the wrong direction and cause chaos! The wind can be at right-angles to the direction of the chosen new nest site. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 03:50:29 -0800 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Faith vs Reason - Swarm movement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope I won't be accused of taking a side in this matter, for simply asking questions and testing the answers, or unread for assuming that *any* hypothesis is open to discussion. >> After all, when a swarm moves through the air, almost all bees are flying >> pretty much in circles, being led as a whole by bees that have flown >> repeatedly to the target site. > > That does not explain the behaviour of a swarm during the time when it is > clustered and scouts are looking for the new nest site. We can watch > dancing scouts trying to recruit for different sites and then gradually > coming to a consensus with many bees dancing for the same site (to which > the swarm moves - and which we can predict). Let's divide that into two parts: 1.) what we see (the observation), and 2.) what we think we are seeing (the interpretation). First, we are seeing bees moving around in specific directions, speeds, frequencies, etc. ("the behaviour of a swarm during the time when it is clustered and scouts are looking for the new nest site. We can watch dancing scouts.."). AFAIK nobody disputes this, and we have all seen it. The various movements (called -- somewhat anthropomorphically, "dancing") have been analysed and documented, perhaps completely, perhaps not, and we seem to be able to predict, sometimes with great accuracy, when the swarm will leave and also when we can expect it to go. I understand, however that the accuracy of these predictions is not necessarily 100%. After all, swarms sometimes stay on the congregation point near the hive, sometimes return to the origin, and sometimes go to locations other than the one that seemed to be indicated. (Someone please comment). Second, we *think* that the bees are able to read the same information that is so obvious to even a slightly trained human. We have deduced this by conducting various ingenious tests and applying logic, and even using "common sense". This is much harder to prove conclusively, and while many proofs have been attempted, some tests have been found to be flawed in various ways, and others open to alternate interpretations. What many may consider proof absolute, others may consider to be merely persuasive, but incomplete or, possibly, flawed tests. Some people are easy to convince, while others demand a higher standard of proof or multiple proofs, and question them thoroughly. Some may never be convinced no matter how much proof is provided. That's just the way people are, and as they say, "It takes all kinds". Be that as it may, each serves a purpose, it seems to me, and we all have to get along. Personally, when I ride a commercial jet, I like to think that there are some hard-to-distract, hard-to-convince, extra-careful, take-nothing-on-faith people in maintenance and navigation. > All this can happen in quite strong winds which would remove any odour > trails immediately - or even light winds which would, presumably, send > bees off in the wrong direction and cause chaos! The wind can be at > right-angles to the direction of the chosen new nest site. Winds can definitely be a confounding issue for those who doubt or reject the language hypothesis, however the wind problem is not insurmountable inasmuch as the bees often mill around in large circles, flying through the general mass of the swarm in flight, so we can assume (there is that word again) that those who know may be able to somehow guide the group that way. (See opening quote). As a slight broadening of the topic, let me ask how relatives of the bees, ants, wasps and hornets find a picnic, and how they recruit their nestmates so quickly Again, let me reiterate, for those who skim rather than read pensively, that I have no position in this matter and an almost entirely open mind. I enjoy the idea that bees might have a language and take pleasure in watching a swarm getting ready to fly and thinking I can understand what is happening, however I am aware that my senses and knowledge are very limited. ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 13:25:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mario Pittori Subject: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 wiki on the process of domestication > There is debate within the scientific community over how the process of domestication works. Some researchers give credit to natural > selection, wherein mutations outside of human control make some members of a species more compatible to human cultivation or > companionship. Others have shown that carefully controlled selective breeding is responsible for many of the collective changes > associated with domestication. These categories are not mutually exclusive and it is likely that natural selection and selective breeding > have both played some role in the processes of domestication throughout history. The European Apis mellifera races (mellifera, ligustica, carnica, etc) of the Western Honey Bee species (Apis mellifera), have been subjected to selective breeding by mankind for at least 150 years. Therefore, and as far as I am concerned, they are domesticated. More so as the genetic original wild forms are no longer in separate existence, but have interbred with ferals for an equally long time. Those races have been kept in one manner or another for more than two thousand years. However, the sub-saharan bee races (notably scutellata and adansonii) were never really subjected to bee-keeping as we (Caucasians) understand it; with the exception of luring wild swarms into man-made cavities, the bees usually being killed at honey harvest time. As a result, we still have both, the domesticated races and the original wild form genetics. -- Mario Pittori empilolo@fastmail.co.uk ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 08:09:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit allen dick wrote: >> One thing I was hoping to get some insight on right now is surrounding the idea of domestication. Since humans have had an interest in bees for such a long time, can these bees be considered domesticated? I'm thinking about this in terms of artificial homes, bee husbandry, selection and genetics, which would suggest that they absolutely are. What are your thoughts? This subject centers around the question "In what way are they domesticated?" In other words, how are they distinct from a wild hive? If the answer is: no different, then there is your answer. African bees in hives seem every bit as wild as African bees in trees. So, the mere fact that they are in hives doesn't prove domestication. The pests living in my house are wild, even thought they have moved indoors. I used to point out to people that because our bees are "free to go", they cannot be called domesticated. But now, as they seem so dependent on us for survival, I consider them domesticated. Since they are most definitely a managed species, keeping bees certainly falls into the category of animal husbandry. Breeding in itself is not a clincher. People breed any number of wild animals. Selection is the most difficult point. If the bees are selected for qualities that make them more manageable, then this would be a process of *domestication*. But what if they are selected for health, vigor, and the ability to survive without undue management? I suppose the thing that attracted me to honey bees in the first place was the idea that one is exposed constantly to a "wild creature" and one must learn its ways to get along with it, and succeed. Gradually, I learned that the beekeeper is responsible for the bees in his or her care. This is an apt metaphor for our position on the earth. Whereas once we could stand at the edge of the wilderness, there now is very little of this planet left that does not feel our influence. Let us always seek to do more good than harm! pb ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:01:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Dictionary : 1. To tame 2. To civilize The only way number 1 could be applied to bees (in my opinion) would be in selection in breeding programs such as Sue Cobey, Marla Spivak or other queen breeders for gentleness, reduced swarming and other desirable traits. Domesticated is not a proper term to describe honey bees in my opinion. Stock improvement is certainly possible through breeding programs but unless kept up then the stocks ALWAYS return to a state similar to feral colonies. The best honey bee stock improvement programs have ALWAYS used instrumental insemination as open mating has always been a crap shoot. We have discussed on BEE-L many times that there are a handful of queen breeders in the U.S. and the rest are queen mass producers. They are different. However most queen mass producers now buy at least part of their breeder queens from the queen breeders which has improved our U.S.. stock. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 08:46:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? In-Reply-To: <002801c75bc0$b943df70$0aa0cf0a@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We did go through this discussion long ago. It all rides on the definition of domesticated. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source do·mes·ti·cate /dəˈmɛstɪˌkeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[d/uh/-*mes*-ti-keyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -cat·ed, -cat·ing. –verb (used with object) 1. to convert (animals, plants, etc.) to domestic uses; tame. 2. to tame (an animal), esp. by generations of breeding, to live in close association with human beings as a pet or work animal and usually creating a dependency so that the animal loses its ability to live in the wild. 3. to adapt (a plant) so as to be cultivated by and beneficial to human beings. 4. to accustom to household life or affairs. 5. to take (something foreign, unfamiliar, etc.) for one's own use or purposes; adopt. 6. to make more ordinary, familiar, acceptable, or the like: to domesticate radical ideas. –verb (used without object) 7. to be domestic. Bees fit only half of 1, and even there it is a stretch. None of the other definitions fit, so bees are not domesticated. In truth, they act the same in a tree as they do in a box in your apiary. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 15:15:01 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > Bees fit only half of 1, and even there it is a stretch. None of the other > definitions fit, so bees are not domesticated. > > In truth, they act the same in a tree as they do in a box in your apiary. what about: 'creating a dependency so that the animal loses its ability to live in the wild'? As I understand it from posts to this group, there are few feral colonies able to survive (at least for a reasonable timescale) in the US. The UK - and probably large areas of the world - is little better. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 10:32:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: CCD Causes, Concerns In-Reply-To: <748ea61b46317f4d745ac2f3b69efb27@lifesci.ucsb.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Few of these 'disappearing' diseases seem terribly well documented, and I'm sure not all 'disappearing' diseases are the same. Austrialia's Disappearing Disorder for example is a brood disease, and the adult bees are fine (http://www.rirdc.gov.au/pub/97comp/bee.html and http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/04-152.pdf). In there case it appears to be a nutritional problem. Our CCD obviously isn't related, and I'm wondering how many of the other terms are describing the same condition (and cause). Jim Tew noted report of such diseases that could be described as a disappearing disease as far back as 1915 ( http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=171 ) Unfortunately, personally I haven't seen any common thread between the losses. My own, and smaller beekeepers I've talked to (5-100 hives), mostly don't do the things the migratory beekeepers interviewed by USDA/ARS in their preliminary report. Many have newer comb, didn't feed HFCS, didn't treat (and some never have) with coumpaphos or fluvalinate, don't move their hives (stress), etc. -Tim ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 10:33:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: MAAREC Website Feb 2007 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Some new things have been added to the MAAREC website, including the famous CCD Map. Also, I wonder how many have seen this excerpt from the CCD Presentation. Boy, I hope they are wrong about this one: * * * Tentative Hypothesis 􀁺 Common denominator is the presence of fungi, likely Aspergillus sp. (stonebrood) Aspergillus sp 􀁺 Common in soils 􀁺 Can infect other animals including humans – Immune compromised individuals susceptible – Increase rates of infection are reported in people – Produces a toxin FROM: "Fall Dwindle Disease" by Dennis vanEngelsdorp, et al. ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:14:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mario Pittori Subject: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Peter Borst wrote > This subject centers around the question "In what way are they > domesticated?" In other words, how are they distinct from a wild hive? If > the answer is: no different, then there is your answer. African bees in > hives seem every bit as wild as African bees in trees. African bees have never been domesticated, so yes, if you put them in a hive, they are still every bit as wild as African bees. As I have said before, there is a difference between the European and the African races - the Europeans have been domesticated. Bill Truesdell wrote > In truth, they act the same in a tree as they do in a box in your apiary. But your bees in the tree are ferals (escaped domestibee's), so you can not really expect them to be that different, can you ? Peter Edwards wrote > what about: 'creating a dependency so that the animal loses its > ability to live in the wild'? You consider cats domesticated ? They have not lost their ability to survive in the wild. -- Mario Pittori empilolo@fastmail.co.uk ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 09:42:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Can we consider... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Domesticate" is a funny word. When an animal trainer gets eaten by a tiger in front of a large audience-I guess that proves it wasn't a domestic animal. An hour before the performance the cat would have answered well in most of the tests we can think of for being domesticated, and for years before. I've heard it said that cats can't be domesticated. They merely go where the food is. Cattle are definitely domesticated Right? Try being on a flat piece of pasture at night, without a tree in sight, and hearing a stampede of range cattle thundering at you. (I assumed a fox or a bear startled them.) I've seen a herd of Buffalo do exactly the same thing. If you take wild elk and capture them and raise calves from them, those born in captivity will be tame. They aren't domesticated. It is their nature to act this way. Aha! The dog you say. There's a domestic animal. The dog is a pack animal. Born in captivity and "imprinted" on a human being at or before the 15th day of life, the dog acts like a member of a pack. Its master is the alpha male. My son has a black lab that likes to sleep on the carpet. When the "boss" comes in he scurries into the kitchen like a shot. When I come in he hardly looks at me. We didn't change much with the dog. We merely "bent" his existing instincts and used them. Sheep dogs are raised with sheep from day one. They have the herd instinct plus the protective one. Six Great Pyrenees http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/greatpyrenees.htm amid a thousand sheep is a group you would be unlikely to think of as "tame." So. Are the bees domesticated? If you consider that very little else is, I'd put them last on the potential list. Dick Marron ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:01:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD Causes, Concerns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, The problem with the current CCD research is getting to the problem. Mixed in with possibly a NEW problem ( or not) is: The normal losses of these beekeepers from the usual causes: Up to 35% for many migratory beekeepers and 50% does not cause alarm in those which only winter their best stock but then that was before the gold rush to California almonds. Then toss in another 10-15% for drought related problems last fall. Then toss in problems last fall related to lack of fall pollen (drought related in Midwest). Not raising winter bees. Then consider the high number of beekeepers which claim they had super high queen loss last fall after using apiguard. Once queenless the bees drifted to other hives ( even leaving brood) creating the CCD look. How many were fed off spec HFCS? Then consider the accepted queen loss when bees are moved is 10% ( perhaps up to 20% if stressed). Then consider some African genetics is in many commercial operations. Would not the AHB genetics increase absconding causing the disappearing part. Ok now how many hives are now effected with this new problem? Note I did not speak to varroa & tracheal mites above. All the CCD symptoms are common to hives over varroa threshold and crashing. If varroa is the problem ( one of the commercial beekeepers involved said it could not be a varroa issue as he treated his hives with peppermint oil soaked shop towels------ Hmmm) then we are back to the PMS virus issue. Control the varroa and you control the virus. also: If a huge amount of virus contamination is on the comb then the next swarm will crash earlier than the normal four months of intense brood rearing. A few thoughts. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 12:48:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? In-Reply-To: <005801c75c14$62040380$d5d66a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: > > what about: 'creating a dependency so that the animal loses its > ability to live in > the wild'? Please explain how you do that with bees? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 13:18:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? In-Reply-To: <1172765687.3666.1177210031@webmail.messagingengine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mario Pittori wrote: > African bees have never been domesticated, so yes, if you put them in a > hive, they are still every bit as wild as African bees. As I have said > before, there is a difference between the European and the African races > - the Europeans have been domesticated. > Actually, if you look in Africa, Brazil and even Mexico and Texas, AHB are being managed just like EHB. AHB are not uniform in their aggressively habits any more than EHB. You get the good and the bad. And if you really think EHB are all sweet and loving, you never met the colony of Italians sold to me by a local bee supplier. Some of Brother Adams nice bees lost their pleasant disposition within a few generations. There are and always will be hot bees no matter the race. Nice program on the Discovery Channel on AHB about "Killer Bees" that was actually on target. Mark Winston was an adviser. Showed AHB colonies in Arizona and Mexico being tended by beekeepers with little problem. Aggressive colonies were selected out. Also showed a nice lady beekeeper in South Africa tending her AHB colonies and the monkeys nearby being stung when they ventured too close. So AHB are not of a uniform disposition any more than posters on the BeeL. Much more temperate than that. Again, we are confusing domestication with the kind of bees we are keeping. Just because they are less aggressive does not mean they are domesticated. Roy Horn of Siegfried and Roy would not call the tiger that mauled him domesticated, even though it was less aggressive than one found in the wild. Bees started in the wild. Men figured out how to keep them in containers so they could get to their product, honey. Bees in the wild (except in the Americas) were there before man. Bees that escape from man's containers are the same as those in the wild as long as there are bees locally. The only reason we call bees feral in the Americas is because they were never here in the first place. I do agree that my bees are domesticated only to the extent that they like their plasma TVs and lazy boys I provide them during football season. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:14:19 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: MAAREC Website Feb 2007 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter Borst: > Tentative Hypothesis > =F4=80=81=BA Common denominator is the presence of fungi, > likely Aspergillus sp. (stonebrood) Stonebrood is usually caused by A. flavus, occasionally A. fumigatus. A. fumigatus is used to make Fumidil-B. Just a thought. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 19:56:03 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: MAAREC Website Feb 2007 In-Reply-To: <00ef01c75c2d$6ea41800$d5d66a58@office> > Stonebrood is usually caused by A. flavus, occasionally A. fumigatus. Reaserches in Ukraine patented (patent Nr. 33532 A 01 K 51/00a ) a process how to add propolis to the wax. Labtest shows that 85 - 95 % of fungi (stonebrood, chalkbood) are killed within 5 hours. Tested even in a beeyard with 200 bives and 5 % of them having problem with stonebrood during 4 years. All stonebrood is gone. \vov ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:09:42 -0500 Reply-To: chrissy shaw Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: chrissy shaw Subject: Re: Can we consider... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is not domestic an odd idea at any rate? Humans are a species Homosapien s., since we are a species, any manipulation of any other species for our gain is the same as it would be for any other species. A honeydew ant variety is not domesticating aphids by moving them here or there, and would not be were that ant to attempt to breed a better honeydew producing aphid. We are more sophisticated, but i have never seen evidence that we are but another species which takes advantage of other species, simply in a more robust manner. I think the premise that we are somehow "special" only holds up if you ask us. If we are not special that means we have relationships that fir into biological standards regarding co-dependant, symbiotic or parasitic relationships with bees, and many other species. Chrissy Shaw ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:15:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: CCD Causes, Concerns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Maybe beekeepers should stop considering 50% losses normal. I'm an old cow man, 50% losses would have been unacceptable. Back in the old days before mites, hauling hives all over the country, 50% mortality would have been considered rather severe. Jerry


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:25:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Aspergillus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On aspergilli. It seems to be everywhere. Here it is in one of Bob Harrisons' sources. The writer is talking about HFCS is made. >>>Next, an enzyme called glucoamylase breaks the sugar chains down even further to yield the simple sugar glucose. Unlike alpha-amylase, glucoamylase is produced by Aspergillus, a fungus, in a fermentation vat where one would likely see little balls of Aspergillus floating on the top.<<< http://www.westonaprice.org/motherlinda/cornsyrup.html Dick Marron ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 20:14:15 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote: >> what about: 'creating a dependency so that the animal loses its ability >> to live in >> the wild'? Bill asked: > Please explain how you do that with bees? I can't believe that you asked that question! Let me ask: 'How many colonies in the US could live without the intervention and support (!) of beekeepers?' Peter ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 07:25:42 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: CCD causes, concerns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim Arheit wrote > Austrialia's Disappearing Disorder for example is a brood disease, and = the adult bees are fine=20 It is not a disease as has been shown by the research and I usually = refer to it as "muck". I have written on this on Bee-L before but = obviously it has not been understood. It affects brood but is not = transferable from hive to hive. This has been shown when an affected = frame is taken from one hive and put in another hive the new hive does = not get the muck. In my opinion, and I have had it in my hives, it is a = heavy metal poisoning caused by the ability of the plant to absorb these = heavy metals when the soil ph drops to very acid. The bees collect it = in the nectar and pollen and it affects their digestive ability. It = occurs on acid soils. If a hive is showing symptoms, which are very = similar to EFB, and you shift it onto better quality soil, then the = symptoms disappear with a day or so. If we get rain and the ph of the = soil becomes not as acid then it again disappears. Tim says it does not affect adult bees. This is incorrect as you can = have a thriving triple hive and within a few days it is down to a nuc = size. The adult bees disappear, hence that part of the name. A hive = can recover from the muck if shifted off the acid soil or it rains. It = normally occurs in spring from September to November, sometimes into = December. The only treatment is to not work the areas of acid soils in that time = period. Simple. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Had a look at www.apimondia2007.com ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:25:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? In-Reply-To: <012e01c75c3e$2f5c14c0$d5d66a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: > > Let me ask: 'How many colonies in the US could live without the > intervention and support (!) of beekeepers?' All that would normally survive if they all swarmed. Bees did pretty well for themselves for millions of years before man caged them. To think that their survival is dependent on a beekeeper is presumptuous. All the beekeeper is doing is tending the zoo. The animals are still wild. Your question could be turned by taking the Panda as an example. Let one loose from the DC zoo and it would die quickly since there is little bamboo in Washington.. Dung beetles, however, would have a field day. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:53:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Thanks to All for Responding Comments: cc: ltarver@beealert.blackfoot.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good afternoon We picked up over 60 new surveys since Saturday, pushing the total to over 200. Still a small sample size compared to the number of beekeepers in the U.S., or even on this list. My thanks to those who took the time. Our logs indicate some problems. Larry Tarver is trying to contact anyone who may have had problems with servers, time-outs, etc. If you need assistance, e-mail him at _ltarver@beealewrt.blackfoot.net_ (mailto:ltarver@beealewrt.blackfoot.net) . Also, I again need to remind everyone -- the address is _www.beesurvey.com_ (http://www.beesurvey.com) . If someone is trying to sell survey services to you, wants any information other than basic contact (which we ask so we can follow up leads, but do not require of you) information - you've got the wrong web site. Jerry


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:04:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: South American Honey crop In-Reply-To: <00ef01c75c2d$6ea41800$d5d66a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all, Any news about the volume of the expected South American honey crop? Peter ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:27:02 -0600 Reply-To: D Adams Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: D Adams Subject: Re: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think we can compare pandas to bees to well but it's something to think about. We have'nt for the most part had any new stock brought in since the pilgrims brought them here, then you add on the fact that for years Queen breeders have selected for low swarming , where has the vigor gone?? In my opinion not to search the world over for stock and obtain it ,we have weakened our bees. It's not like we (the USA) have kept out all of the bad pests from the rest of the world. ************************************************************************************* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * ************************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:57:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Irwin_Harlton?= Subject: poor crop in Argentina? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Taken from the apitrack web site http://www.apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm ARGENTINA- BUENOS AIRES PROVINCE BEEKEEPERS REQUEST AN APICULTURAL EMERGENCY STATUS Before a situation that the local honey producers consider worrisome, the beekeepers of Adolph Gonzales Chaves asked for to the municipal intendant to contact the provincial organism that corresponds, to declare an apicultural emergency, dice the thin yields in the honey harvest, that has been reduced remarkably; fact to which a decrease in its value is added. In to char it with producer and member of Center of Beekeepers of this city, Alberto Amoroso, extended that at the present time, the sector is happening through the worse moment with regard to honey production, this happens at least in almost forty years, that is time that I am in this activity, where never I have had harvest so bad as this year, which I believe that it becomes general in all the southwest, commented *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:35:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mario Pittori Subject: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Bill Truesdell wrote > Actually, if you look in Africa, Brazil and even Mexico and Texas, AHB > are being managed just like EHB. AHB are not uniform in their > aggressively habits any more than EHB. You get the good and the bad. actually, I happen to live in Africa, keeping Apis mellifera adansonii. Yes, we get the good and the bad, weeding out the latter. Beekeeping here is in it's infancy. The bees are what they are and whether we consider them domesticated or not does not change anything. To call them domesticated or not is nothing but a label awarded them by us. Chrissy Shaw wrote > If we are not special that means we have relationships that fit into > biological standards regarding co-dependant, symbiotic or parasitic > relationships with bees, and many other species. I think I like this version. -- Mario Pittori empilolo@fastmail.co.uk *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:29:48 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill wrote: > Bees did pretty well for themselves for millions of years before man caged > them. To think that their survival is dependent on a beekeeper is > presumptuous. Agree with the first sentence, but beekeepers have selected for a very different bee from the one that survived so well. If this is not true, tell me why there are so few feral colonies. Yes, it is likely - almost certain - that some escaping swarms would survive and, given time, I suspect that bees would thrive once again (whether they would have the same perceived economic value could be debated); but in the short term, if all beekeepers stopped tending bees now then I am sure that very few colonies would survive. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 20:06:46 +1300 Reply-To: rrb@xtra.co.nz Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Remco Bouckaert Subject: How long to keep oxalic acid syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi All, Having mixed oxalic acid syrup for trickling for a single hive, I was left with half a liter of the mixture. After half a year standing on the shelf in a clear bottle it starts to turn yellow now, so something seems to be going on in there. Is this still effective against varroa? Or should I just throw it away and make a new batch? Thanks for any hints, Remco *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 07:48:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: CCD Causes, Concerns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hello All, > The problem with the current CCD research is getting to the problem. > > The normal losses of these beekeepers from the usual causes: > Up to 35% for many migratory beekeepers and 50% does not cause alarm in > those which only winter their best stock but then that was before the gold > rush to California almonds. I agree. The March issue of Bee Culture shows colony loss at or below average (aprox 20%) and less than last years losses. I am not saying that CCD is not a serious problem, for those encountering the problem it may be devastating. But I wonder if it could be more media hype than is justified, as with many issues in our current society. Marc Studebaker *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:29:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? In-Reply-To: <007901c75cad$527f23b0$d5d66a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: > Agree with the first sentence, but beekeepers have selected for a very > different bee from the one that survived so well. If this is not > true, tell me why there are so few feral colonies. We seem, as is usual on this list, to get away from the subject. The issue is the term domesticated. If you cage a wild beast it is not domesticated even thought you feed and medicate it. As far as numbers of feral colonies, there are limited on the number of bees or whatever that can populate an area and survive. You see this ebb and flow in nature all the time. So the numbers of feral colonies does not determine if bees are domesticated. As far as bees surviving well in the past and not now, I would think that Varroa, an introduced pest, might have something to do with it. Again, that has nothing to do with the subject. Prior to the introduction of Varroa there were plenty of feral colonies. This issue is really not worth the time we have spent on it. So I would suggest just taking some of your domesticated bees to your neighbor on your next visit and let about 500 loose in their home. Your neighbors will provide the definition. Bill Truesdell (who remembers the domesticated cow in the home of Borat. No bees.) Bath, Maine *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:17:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: How long to keep oxalic acid syrup In-Reply-To: <200703021246.l22COWMr014350@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Remco asked about the shelf life of mixed Oxalic Acid Syrup. The shelf life of mixed Oxalic Acid Syrup is only a few days. My recollection is 4. All recommendation I've read state clearly to mix only what you will use immediately, do not store leftovers, mix a new batch for subsequent use. Aaron Morris - thinking know your tools! *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:10:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: How long to keep oxalic acid syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Remco > After half a year standing on the shelf in > a clear bottle it starts to turn yellow now, There is a document about degradation of oxalic/sucrose solution... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/oxalicstorage.html Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:14:24 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: CCD Makes the New York Times Op-Ed Page MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While it is encouraging to see this, I am disheartened to note that neither NYT piece has mentioned the shoestring budgets available for this important work. As no one budgeted for this project, I can only assume that funds allocated for other purposes have been "raided" to pay for all the travel and lodging, lab work, etc. Other than EAS, is there any beekeeping-related group that has 503(c) status, so that tax-deductible donations can be collected? http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/02/opinion/02berenbaum.html Getting past any "login" screens is eased with BugMeNot ( http://www.bugmenot.com/ ) or, even better, the Firefox BugMeNot plugin. *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:42:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Adrian Wenner Subject: New York Times editorial Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If anyone is interested in the Op.Ed. piece that appeared in this morning's NEW YORK TIMES, I have it as a file (.doc) and can send it off list as an attachment. Author of that editorial: May R. Berenbaum, head of the department of entomology at the University of Illinois, is the author of Buzzwords: A Scientist Muses on Sex, Bugs and Rock n Roll. Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm "Having one view prevail is harmful; it becomes a belief system, not science." Zaven Khachaturian 2006 *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:22:56 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: How long to keep oxalic acid syrup Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Having mixed oxalic acid syrup for trickling for a single hive, I was left with half a liter of the mixture. I always estimate how many beespaces I'll need to treat and make the corresponding amount of solution plus ~10%. >>After half a year standing on the shelf... Is this still effective against varroa? Or should I just throw it away and make a new batch? It may be effective against varroa but you must consider if it's safe for the bees. I don't mean the oxalic component of the solution. Sugar dissolved in water undergoes changes over time that are or can be harmful to the bees. You don't want to keep oxalic sugar water solution for more than a few days even in refrigeration. Always use fresh solution. It's cheaper than having to replace colonies. I make up my OA solution just before treating and discard whatever little I have leftover. Waldemar *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 10:28:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: A new "proof" for the existence of the honeybee "dance language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In a post of Feb. 28, Fischer, a staunch "dance language" (DL) supporter, brings up what he interprets as a new proof for the existence of the honeybee DL, based on a study on nectar-scents, published by Robert Raguso, in Ecology of 2004. Raguso tested nectars from 7 different types of flowers polinated by honeybees, and found scenet in only 4 of them. Fischer assumes that these means that the remaining 3 types of nectar are odorless. He, therefore, concludes that if honeybee recruits, (that have no visual information about the source visited by their dancing foragers), find odorless nectar, they can do so only by using DL information. The conclusion, (like all other evidence for the existence of the honeybee DL), is based on none other than wishful thinking. Fischer's assumption that if Raguso found no scent in 3 types of nectar, this means that those types are odorless, is totally ground. In fact, Raguso makes clear that the methods he used are not sensitive enough for each case. He explicitly states: "The sampling methodology was suitable for strongly scented flowers with tubular corollas or spurs and large nectar volumes. Alternative methods will be needed to study umbels or capitula of minute flowers with negligible nectar volumes. For example, I could not verify whether *Foeniculum*nectar is scented by using the filter paper-SPME approach. However, Patt et al. (1999)demonstrated that eulophid parasitoid wasps learn to find and feed from artificial flowers more effectively when they include honey water or * Foeniculum*nectar than when sugar solutions are used, providing behavioral data suggestive of nectar scent in this system". -- Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 15:07:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/03/2007 18:23:02 GMT Standard Time, bhfarms@SUSCOM-MAINE.NET writes: what about: 'creating a dependency so that the animal loses its > ability to live in > the wild'? Please explain how you do that with bees? Expose it to exotic pests parasites and diseases to which it has no innate coping strategy and so thus becomes dependant on human intervention for its survival. *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 18:40:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Open access for research papers In-Reply-To: <200703011532.l21FWb2f009077@smtp3.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A short article as found on the BBC web site makes interesting reading. Accepting that this is not directly implicating the world of Apiculture (i.e. Please Mr. Moderator, let this through) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6404429.stm Just in case - If this approach was to become recognized as more normal practice, then would those who are writing about less accepted material in the bee world find it easier to publish? Peter *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 18:48:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: CCD Causes, Concerns In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, The implications of this latest round of CCD has been questioned. Would it be possible to indicate approx. number of colonies that have been affected ? Regards, Peter *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 20:06:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Joel_Klose?= Subject: Re: Can We Consider Honey Bees to be Domesticated? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) Domesticate \Do*mes"ti*cate\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Domesticated; p. pr. & vb. n. Domesticating.] [LL. domesticatus, p. p. of domesticare to reside in, to tame. See Domestic, a.] 1. To make domestic; to habituate to home life; as, to domesticate one's self. 2. To cause to be, as it were, of one's family or country; as, to domesticate a foreign custom or word. 3. To tame or reclaim from a wild state; as, to domesticate wild animals; to domesticate a plant. Within beekeeping, at every caste, there is this romance. It is the art of the craft, the almost celebrity status we have among the populous for our unique endeavor, the days afield where time is measured by the experiance of the moment, the sudden emergence of a storm on the horizon or the impending dusk. Because of who we are, beekeepers, a part of us will wish our bees to remain wild creatures we interact with (and who interact with us) in a way significantly different from the more "domesticated" farmers who tend cows, heard sheep or raise chickens. We stretch our intelect to build fences around the impossible with words like religion, universe and domesticated. We struggle to accept that in a practical sense we can call whatever we choose domestic in a moment of seemingly controlled captivity. In truth all living creatures are wild except for the fences, hive bodies or houses that keep us. Any event may remove that barrier and all, even humans, would return to a wild state. Possibly different from others we would encounter who have lived longer in the wild, but still surviving or becoming extinct, based on deep drives that have been in the making, long before Mr. Webster and his dictionary. *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 23:42:55 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Open access for research papers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/2/2007 5:51:10 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, pdillon1@MTS.NET writes: Just in case - If this approach was to become recognized as more normal practice, then would those who are writing about less accepted material in the bee world find it easier to publish? Peter Open access for research papers is a great idea - until the other shoe drops. Today I received your e-mail advocating open access AND I also received a solicitation/endorsement for publishing this way. According to the open access memo that I received, it will only cost me $5000 to publish a paper -- maybe no more than $1000 if I pay annual membership dues, etc. And, there's still pressure to publish in conventional journals, first. What most folks don't understand, creative writers get paid to publish their work, researchers don't. We have to pay to publish. A few journals that sell ads actually publish for free. Most journals charge the author a stiff per page rate -- ever wonder why modern day journal articles are relatively short? Can't afford to publish long articles. Add color, charge goes up, etc. Open access is a nice idea, but it won't resolve anything if it just piles on additional costs. Jerry


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:25:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD Causes, Concerns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jerry & All, >Maybe beekeepers should stop considering 50% losses normal. I'm an old cow man, 50% losses would have been unacceptable. Many commerccial beekeepers are young queen beekeepers ( not old queen beekeepers). You depopulate at least 50% at season's end ( the worst hives ) as you need the equipment to split into in spring. If they die on their own not a big deal as long as wax moths do not trash the equipment. The Richard Adee reducing down to 10,000 hives . then splitting back into 40,000 is documented in a three part series starting in Dec. 92 in Bee Culture. If you are at a size you want to stay at ( trucks, help , supers etc.) then you have got no choice but to depopulate hives. Surely I am not telling you something you did not know ( or am I)? If the above is not done then Richard Adee using the method outlined in the Bee Culture article ( as an example of large scale beekeeping) would take 40,000 hives to Mississippi and need another 120,000 hives to make his splits and end up with 160,000 hives. Each smart beekeeper knows the max number of hives he can manage. I do not know exactly the way the Adee's operate now with California in the equation but using the plan outlined in the BC article 50% to 75% losses in late fall would not be an issue if the Adee's had 25% *strong* to take south to make splits from. Bob **************************************************************************** ********* * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Help with data collection regarding Colony Collapse Disorder at www.beesurvey.com * **************************************************************************** ********* -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 01:08:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Getting a handle on total bee losses from CCD, request to Bee-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter We are trying to get a fix on total numbers of lost bees, but is hard to get these numbers. People who fill out our survey tend to leave that question blank. Many large beekeepers deny having a problem, but we know that some of these same people have lost thousands of colony. I've had different members of the same family tell me different stories -- no problem, slight problem, yeh, we really lost thousands of colonies. Trying to get the loss numbers on a national scale is really tough. USDA Ag Stats don't collect these. The Op-Ed in the New York Times is on the mark. In a perfect world, these would be annual stats - important ones to collect, but they are not. During the Reagen administration, much of the funding for these kinds of stats went away in budget cuts. So, how do we collect reasonable estimates -- further complicated when some beekeepers think 50% or more bee loss is NORMAL? Even if the government suddenly decides to collect these numbers, it won't help in the short term. It will take months/years to get agencies like USDA to put this in place, and longer to get results. At the CCD meeting, there was discussion of hiring a firm specializing in surveys - nice idea, but these usually cost a lot of money, and there's currently not enough money available to even pay for the initial investigations (sampling bees, looking for viruses, chemicals, etc.). Personally, I'd rather see folks in the beeyards, looking at failing hives, trying to get a fix on the cause then paying some polling firm a million bucks or more to run a national survey. But, I think there is a way that within a week or two we could get a pretty good idea of losses across the nation - a rough order of magnitude approach (ROM). With the help of Bee-L and 1 person per state we could get this done. Instead of going after the nation, let's get a report from each state. For example, I'm convinced that I can make a pretty informed estimate of numbers of colonies lost this year in Montana by working with our state association, the state entomologist, and some key beekeepers. To date, I know of three large beekeepers who have had the CCD problem (defined as sudden colony collapse where bees vanish, few or no dead bees in box, absence of robbing, invading pests like wax moths). Two of the three called me, the third came to my attention because several other beekeepers called me, told me to contact the beekeeper. Now, there may be lots of small scale beekeepers who have lost bees and haven't told us, but the three large beekeeping operations have lost so many hives that even if all of the hobby beekeepers and sideliners in the state lost all of their bees, it still wouldn't make an appreciable difference in the total numbers of lost colonies. And our state entomologist also reports three beekeepers with heavy bee losses - so we're both hearing the same thing. Pennsylvania has done the same in their state and posted a summary of number of bees and beekeepers in their state, numbers of colonies lost. Again, their numbers are based mainly on the losses of large scale beekeepers . Jerry Hayes and crew have a pretty good fix on Florida. So, we've already got estimates from three of the 50 states. Some numbers may be low (since some beekeepers haven't looked at their hives yet, or just refuse to acknowledge a problem). So far, we've found more of a tendency to not report, then over-estimating losses (but that may not be true of all states). Since no one is likely to pay beekeepers for these lost hives, there's not much to be gained by inflating loss numbers. And for anyone guessing that the cause is a pesticide or bad syrup, even if that turns out to be the case, filing lawsuits is a good way to sustain even greater losses, since the lawyer fees generally tend to mount up rapidly, and the beekeeper finds that he/she has little chance of winning the case. This is ESPECIALLY true for something as widespread and vague (unknown) causes as the CCD. So here's my ROM (rough order of magnitude), rapid loss survey suggestion: I need one volunteer per state who will contact their state beekeeping association, state apiary inspection program (if one exists), and some volunteer beekeepers who are willing to hit the phones - talk to beekeepers who are/have experienced CCD (as defined by the posted symptoms - see _www.beesurvey.com_ (http://www.beesurvey.com) ). The objective will be to get a fix on losses since spring of 2006, preferably by time of year. Last week Bee-L managed to double our bee loss survey input -- so is there ONE PERSON per state who will take on the task of trying to get a count of colonies lost to CCD AND report it to me? I realize in urban states with hundreds of small beekeepers, this may be difficult, but simply getting the losses of the large beekeepers in each state would be most helpful. If you are willing to take this on for your state, send me your e-mail address, and we will post it on our survey site - asking beekeepers, association's, etc. in your state to contact you. I'd like one point of contact per state AND when I get a summary report from that person, I'd really like to see some form of confirmation of numbers from each state's beekeeping association and or/state apiary inspection. In other words, if Sue Brown volunteers for her state, she would contact her state association and state entomologist/apiary inspector/responsible person for her state. She would also conduct some follow up with calls to affected beekeepers, Sue would get an estimate of the number of colonies lost in her state with notes/comments about when the losses occurred and where. We don't want to count the same beekeepers twice - so it would be important to follow state of residency (of the beekeeper) and numbers of bee lost within the state and numbers outside the state (with the name of the state where the bees were lost). We could go on for days about what questions to ask, but this industry needs to get an estimate of total losses, more than anything else. Are we looking at a few beekeepers with heavy losses, or is this more widespread? Is this an emergency, or just something that is beating up some unfortunate beekeepers, but isn't all that important overall? The message that the beekeeping industry really needs an estimate of total losses this year, and quick, came through clearly at last week's CCD meetings in Florida. So back to my example. So that I know that Sue didn't just make the numbers up just to get some attention or to deliberately skew the numbers, I'd like to receive a memo from the state beekeeping association and/or from the state bee program (again, assuming her state has one) saying that they have talked to Sue, looked at her numbers, and agree that her loss estimate is a reasonable approximation of what's has happened in their state - fits the best information currently available. Does this approach fit the requirements of a poll where the pollster runs stats on reliability of the report -- no, because it will be biased by people willing to report, rather than a blind poll. But, this is something that we do it quickly -- I'd say this could be done in two weeks. Is this sort of survey accurate? All depends on the state, but it would give us a starting point, maybe enough information to push for annual polling, and maybe enough to get an ROM on the extent of the problem. Right now, we don't have even an ROM. Thanks Jerry J.J. Bromenshenk Bee Alert Technology, Inc.


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 09:02:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: domestication of animals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline An interesting brief summary of the domestication of animals which *includes* the honey bee: http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab57 http://tinyurl.com/2seahy -- pb picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 07:39:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: U.S. Group Forms to Promote Health Benefits of Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII U.S. Group Forms to Promote Health Benefits of Honey A group of American beekeepers, scientific experts and honey packers, producers and importers recently formed the Committee for the Promotion of Honey and Health in America. To read the entire article, go to: http://www.apitherapynews.com *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 10:16:23 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: A new "proof" for the existence of the honeybee "dance language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is nice to hear from Ruth again. I always enjoy her style. > Fischer, a staunch "dance language" (DL) supporter... This characterization is inaccurate and misleading. One can neither be a "supporter" or an "opponent", as science is not a democratic process. "Support" for specific statements comes from vetted data, not from people. I find it very revealing that the those who tend to ofer arguments in support of "odor" are quick to categorize others into "supporters" and "opponents". Any questioning, any rational inquiry at all gets one classified as a "supporter". Actual working researchers tend to use less polarizing language, such as "that data tends to support", or "that paper seems to contradict". Don't forget the ironic quotes, and (of course) never ever forget to call it a dance LANGUAGE. Funny how no one has ever suggested that dogs have language skills, yet somehow, when a dog growls, lowers his head, and raises the fur on his neck, multiple species (cats, small mammals, birds, and even humans) get the message. > Fischer assumes that these means that the remaining > 3 types of nectar are odorless. Something that is not even detectable with SPME can reasonably said to "not exist", given the detection levels possible with SPME collection and GC/MS, as it is common to detect chemical components at the parts-per-trillion level. Further, odors tend to be the result of volatile organic compounds, fairly easy things to detect. So, while the chemical components of "an odor" might be detectable with some future technology, it is reasonable to conclude that if we can't find them with SPME GC/MS, any compounds in a specific nectar that might generate "an odor" are far too faint to be useful in the sort of long-distance-odor-based navigation and foraging that Ruth consistently offers as an alternative to "dance" without ever having offered any sort of coherent explanation of how this scheme might work. Also, let me repeat the citation: "Why Are Some Floral Nectars Scented?" (Robert A. Raguso "Ecology", 85(6), 2004, pp. 1486-1494) included in: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~irwinlab/papers/Irwin_et_al_2004_SF_Intro.pdf The title of the paper clearly gives the impression that only SOME nectars are "scented". If only some nectars are scented, it follows that the author got the impression that other nectars are NOT scented as a result of his work. (And leveling accusations of "confirmation bias" is not going to work here, as this fellow says nothing about "dance" in his paper.) If there was a consensus that "all nectars are scented", the review process prior to publication would have forced a change to the title, making it something like "Why Are Floral Nectars Scented?". Therefore, we can conclude from the title of the paper that the general scientific consensus is that not all nectars are scented. (Input from botanists is welcome here.) And while it is true that some flowers did not present enough nectar volume for the analysis, this was a minor footnote. So, I will repeat: So, what percentage of plants that provide nectar have an odor at all? No one seems to know at present, but even a small number of such plants present significant hurdles to any proposed foraging and recruitment scheme where odor might be claimed to be mission-critical to the process. But Ruth avoided commenting on what I consider to be much more practical work done by William Towne of Kutztown University cited here: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0702d&L=bee-l&T=0&P=3632 My basic point was that if "odor" had any significant value in long or medium range foraging, Dr. Towne would have never seen any difference in either dances or directions flown by bees under overcast conditions, and it would have been impossible for the bees to be "fooled" into dancing, being recruited, and foraging in the exact opposite direction, away from the feeders. And I will repeat once again that of course bees utilize odor when selecting flowers within a patch, once the bees have arrived at a patch. So, I'm not a "staunch 'dance language' supporter", I am merely staunch proponent of non-fuzzy thinking. *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 10:17:54 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Open access for research papers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > According to the open access memo that I received, it will only > cost me $5000 to publish a paper -- maybe no more than $1000 if > I pay annual membership dues, etc. This assumes that the "Journals" continue as for-profit publishing entities without ads, and that the primary distribution method for science will continue to involve the quaint process of painting toxic chemicals on compressed dead trees. Both are very rash assumptions, and both are assumptions made in an attempt to preserve a business model that is becoming more and more outmoded. Pre-prints are flying around the net at the same speed as peer-to-peer shared movies and music, and in both cases, the publishers think that they can somehow impose their will and preserve their profits on the backs of a group of people who find it easier to copy and distribute "content" with each passing year. > And, there's still pressure to publish in conventional journals, first. I think it would be more accurate to say that there is pressure to submit one's work to peer review, and have it "approved". When universities and other employers of research labor realize that they have a choice between blowing $5K of a slim budget to "publish" and setting up their own peer-review process, I think that the "Journals" will find the Universities themselves will become competitors, "publishing" online-only Journals. > We have to pay to publish. What prevents you from sending out your paper to those who you know to be a good mix of peers, and publishing in ABJ (no payment required, in fact, Joe will buy you a drink!) with a listing of the names and titles of the peers who reviewed of the paper? While this certainly lacks the prestige of being published in "Nature", one needs to isolate the issue of "credibility" from "prestige" to be able to see how a brand name like "Nature" has no place in scientific discourse. Such brand names may do more harm than good, given that a paper reviewed by the same set of people can seem more or less "credible" depending upon where it gets published, when it is merely more prestigious. As far as "anonymous peer review" goes, that's trivial. Any geek over the age of 12 can set up an e-mail server that masks return addresses and header information. In fact, your field is so small that mere wording and syntax (if not specific arguments) can clearly identify the writer, making the anonymity a sham. The sound and fury over this issue is nothing more than the death screams of the "science publishing" houses who refuse to admit that publishing periodicals of any type, is an advertising-supported business, or it is not a business at all. *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 16:24:20 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: A new "proof" for the existence of the honeybee "dance language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim > It is nice to hear from Ruth again. > I always enjoy her style. I think that I know what you mean. > Therefore, we can conclude from the title of the > paper that the general scientific consensus is that > not all nectars are scented. (Input from botanists > is welcome here.) You can call me a botanist if you like, but I don't really know the answer to this. It is probably fair to say that flowers pollinated primarily by bees, wasps and moths usually have a scent noticeable to man. Plants in general seem to adapt their strategies for their particular pollinators, whether that is switching on scent suddenly in the evening to attract moths, producing pungent unpleasant odours for some flies, or releasing sex pheromone to lure frustrated male wasps. I think that we would both agree that scented flowers will be pollinated more effectively than unscented flowers, so it wouldn't be surprising if truly scent-free bee flowers are rare. Something on the intricate co-evolution of scent and pollinator here: http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/Entomology/courses/en570/papers_2000/pineda.html It is likely that bees will harvest nectar from species that don't have much scent if there is an opportunity. They will certainly gather resources - often pollen - from plants designed for wind pollination. They will not have scent for pollinators, but may have some kind of recognisable smell. Corn/maize, wild grasses and hazel early in the season on occasion. I have to say that the experimental approach using the manipulation of foragers or whole colonies provides a much more compelling case for existence of communication via the dance than a case based on the frequency of unscented flowers amongst plant species. all the best Gavin *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:42:48 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Response to Ques about Donations to CCD Working Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 A kind reader of Bee-L asked who's paying for the CCD work and where can=20 people send donations? This is a topic that I hesitated to bring up, but s= ince=20 a reader did, I'll answer.=20 First, as the Bee-L writer guessed, all of the CCD working group has been=20 taking this out of their own projects, borrowing to get to the field and=20 sample, inspect hives, conduct surveys. No one expected to have to travel=20= all over=20 the country getting samples, processing them, etc.=20 I managed to get the Army to extend a project and let us look at this - so=20 that's how we at Bee Alert are funding our bee loss surveys, travel (4=20 states, 7 weeks and five people in the field to date), colony sampling, sa= mpling=20 of air inside of hives shipping, and initial chemistry, . By end of April,=20= we=20 will have spent $50 of the Army's and our own company's resources. If no=20 further dollars are provided, we will have to end our participation at that= =20 time. =20 Penn State - MaryAnn Frazier and Diana Cox-Foster and others, and USDA ARS= =20 Beltsville - Jeff Pettis and Nathan have also contributed significant =20 resources, as have the Apiculture Service of PA, FL, and CA. Dennis VanEng= elsdorp=20 , the Acting Director of the PA Apiculture services has devoted substantial= =20 amounts of his own time and effort. Jerry Hayes in Florida has provided=20 full-time help to anyone looking at hives in FL AND he sent David Westervel= dt to=20 CA, where David worked with us and the rest of the CCD team for a week.=20 Two non-profit research organizations have stepped up to the plate to act a= s=20 'bankers'. The first offer came from Project Apis m. (PAms), the new =20 non-profit research organization that is asking almond pollinators and almon= d =20 growers to each contribute to a research fund. It is being coordinated by =20 Christi Heintz, who has many years of experience as the research coordinato= r for=20 the Almond Board. =20 The next offer came from the Foundation for the Preservation of Honey Bees=20 (ABF affiliation). Contact person is Troy Fore. Both Foundations have =20 pledged NOT to charge any fee.=20 So, if you'd like to help out the CCD Working Group,=20 Please send contributions to either the ABF Save the Bee Foundation or PAms= =20 (Project Apis m). Indicate in the subject line that the donation is for =20 the CCD. =20 The Foundation for the Preservation of Honey Bees Project =20 Apis m. (PAms)=20 Troy H. Fore, Jr. - Executive Director =20 Christi M. Heintz - Project Director =20 PO Box 1337 =E2=80=93 Jessup, Georgia 31598-1337 1= 750=20 Dayton Road=20 PH. 912-427-4233 =E2=80=93 Fax 912-427-8447 =20= Chico, =20 California 95928=20 E-mail: _foundation@ABFnet.org_ (mailto:foundation@ABFnet.org) =20= =20 PH. 520-829-6754=20 E-Mail: _Christih@cox.net_ (mailto:Christih@cox.net) =20 Thanks=20 Jerry=20 JJ Bromenshenk=20 Bee Alert Technology, Inc.=20


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AOL now offers free=20 email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at=20 http://www.aol.com. *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 16:10:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Massachusetts CCD analysis? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...this is an article in our local paper. our local inspector (according to the article) seems to think that it's a virus (unless he was misrepresented, but i think not, as our club's website links to the article). Ken is a fantastic beekeeper, but is the claim of "virus transmited via mite" a little premature?: http://www.telegram.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article? AID=/20070224/NEWS/702240347/1008/NEWSREWIND Virus ravaging bees, threatens food cycle By Lisa D. Welsh TELEGRAM & GAZETTE STAFF WORCESTER A virus affecting the states honeybee population is being closely watched to see whether it will have broader implications on prices. The bee population is being threatened and if that happens, food prices will skyrocket, said Kenneth Warchol of Northbridge, the state apiary inspector. Fifty percent of all food crops are pollinated by honeybees. Mr. Warchol is federally certified to check the 20,000 honeybee hives in the state. In July, when hives are at their peak, 60,000 honeybees are contained in one hive or colony. Mr. Warchols primary role is to keep the bee population safe, and that responsibility is being jeopardized by a virus of unknown origins. It has been determined that mites transfer the virus within the honeybee colony by attacking honeybee larvae and young adults. Once the parasites make contact with the hive, they cannot be eradicated, he said. Last fall, Mr. Warchol started receiving reports of healthy, thriving honeybee hives dying out within one or two weeks. Over the winter, the bees have been dormant, sealed in their beehives. The honeybees condition wont be known until the hives become active again by late next month. This virus is comparable to how the black plague wiped out people in the Middle Ages, Mr. Warchol said. There were a lot of dead hives in the fall, and the virus spreads from one beehive to the next. Left unchecked, it will wipe out the population. He added that he has notified the U.S. Department of Agriculture. According to Mr. Warchol, there were reports of a heavy mite population last year and mites have been a cyclical problem for bees since the 1990s. Last fall was the first major disappearance of entire hives, Mr. Warchol said. Researchers are trying to narrow the virus down. Big commercial beehives have been ravaged in Florida and Louisiana by this virus. The last time there was a heavy mite infestation in Worcester County was in 1995, when 80 percent of beehives were wiped out. Hopefully its not going to be that bad this year, but we could easily see 50, 60, even 70 percent of beehives totally wiped out, Mr. Warchol said. Theres a delicate balance here. Thriving crops are dependent upon the pollination by honeybees who seek nectar. Without the honeybees, without the pollination, crops will be sparse. *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:25:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Response to Ques about Donations to CCD Working Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not to diminish the need for contributions, rather giving credit where = credit id due there have been a number of contributions to investigate = CCD, including donations of $13,000 from the National Honey Board, $5000 = from the Eastern Apicultural Society (EAS), and differing amounts from = various state and local associations ($1000(?) from the Tampa Bay = Beekeepers Association comes and I believe also an amount from the New = Jersey state association). I am sure there are others, apologies for = those I have missed. Needles to say, funds spend quickly and theneed = exceeds the supply. Perhaps readers witth bring motions to their own = state and local associations to support the efforts. Aaron Morris - thinking support the cause! *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:37:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Massachusetts CCD analysis? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes This may or may not be a virus. If the CCD was convince that this was simply mites and viruses, we'd not need to go any further. Jerry


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:39:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Response to Ques about Donations to CCD Working Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Aaron for listing contributions already made: Yes, the NHB came up with the first contribution, and the CCD group sent all of it to PSU so they could get some advanced virus work done. I've heard that PSU also got some other funds - and your EAS, Tampa, etc. contributions seem about right. Jerry


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 13:18:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: A new "proof" for the existence of the honeybee "dance language" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gavin Ramsay wrote: I think that we would both agree that scented flowers will be pollinated more effectively than unscented flowers, so it wouldn't be surprising if truly scent-free bee flowers are rare. You seem to be forgetting that scent is only one way that flowers have of attracting pollinators. A strongly scented flower may be passed over in favor of one that produces more OR sweeter nectar. Pollinators are economists: they don't go where they don't get what they are after. By the same reasoning you can see why bees are attracted to patches of flowers. There may be individual flowers that produce much nectar or pollen, but the pollinators may find they can get more food from a dense patch of lower quality flowers. Size, color, these are all important. But there are two aspects to the whole process: the scouting and the actual foraging. A flower may get the scout's attention but if it doesn't contain the right stuff, it won't be foraged en masse. Of course, the information from the scout is passed on to the foragers via the "dance symbolic communication system". pb *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:40:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... Comments: To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Fischer assumes that these means that the remaining > 3 types of nectar are odorless. Does anybody know if sugar water has a scent? Bees have little problem informing other bees about its location during bee-lining, open feeding etc. I don't have a set mind on the dance language issue but I think bees must use at least one more mode of communication besides odor and taste. I assume scouts don't bring scents of several potential nest sites back to the swarm so how else do they share this information. With the 50F+ weather I got into my hives today. All made it through the winter, bee numbers are good, all queens are laying nice patterns. No varroa detected on the bees. Fresh orange and pale green pollen coming in. Evidence of fresh nectar in the cells. Crocus started blooming yesterday. :) Waldemar Long Island, NY *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 17:32:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... In-Reply-To: <20070303.114125.24612.2056828@webmail39.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline To Waldig, Sugar water has no odor, provided you use perfectly clean dishes, pure water, pure sugar, packed in bags made of paper chemically treated to destroy all odor-traces. The experiences you describe, did not involve any such uncontaminated sugar water. Why should honeybee-recruits need anything more than odor? Flying insects in general, including solitary insects, can find sources of attractive odors in the field by use of nothing other than odors. Why should honeybee-recruits not be able to do the same? Scouts certainly carry back to the swarm the odors of the prospective nest-site they inspected. But, each individual scout naturally carries odors only from the specific site it had itself inspected. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 22:52:17 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar asked: > > Does anybody know if sugar water has a scent? Bees have little > problem informing other bees about its location during bee-lining, > open feeding etc. I can smell it. Just put some sugar water and plain water in a couple of containers and sniff! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 23:16:32 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ruth Rosin wrote: > Sugar water has no odor... Anyone know how wasps detect sugar water - because they certainly can! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:25:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Adrian Wenner Subject: BEE-L, odor of sugar water Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mar 3, 2007, at 2:52 PM, Peter Edwards wrote: > I can smell [sugar water]. Just put some sugar water and plain water > in a couple of containers and sniff! My chemistry handbook indicates that pure sucrose solution prepared VERY carefully has a vapor pressure of zero (hence, no volatiles escaping). Did your run your sniff experiment as a double blind test? Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm "Having one view prevail is harmful; it becomes a belief system, not science." Zaven Khachaturian 2006 *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:20:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Troy Fore Subject: Contributions to CCD Research Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Everyone: The Foundation for the Preservation of Honey Bees has established a Colony Collapse Disorder Research Fund to serve as a mechanism to allow the beekeeping industry and the public at large to participate in the effort to find the cause and, we trust, a solution to the malady affecting so many be= e colonies and beekeepers -- and , by extension, all agriculture. The Foundation for the Preservation of Honey Bees Inc. is an education and research foundation that is sponsored by the American Beekeeping Federation and is organized under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code so that donations to it are fully tax deductible to the donor. It is governed by a board of 10 Trustees who are beekeepers and researchers. The current chairperson is George Hansen, a migratory beekeeper from Colton, Ore. On Feb. 19-20, the Foundation hosted a CCD workshop designed to bring together researchers working on CCD, affected beekeepers, and other scientists. About 30 people participated. As a direct result of the workshop, a presentation was made to the National Honey Board, which was meeting two days later, and the Honey Board approved up to $100,000 in new CCD research funds. Individual beekeepers, beekeeping groups, and members of the public are encouraged to contribute this effort. All funds designated for CCD research will be spent on CCD research. Contributions may be sent to the address below. Any questions you have should be referred directly to me. Thanks, Troy Troy Fore Executive Director The Foundation for the Preservation of Honey Bees, Inc. P.O. Box 1337 =8B Jesup, Georgia 31598-1337 USA Street Address: 115 Morning Glory Circle - ZIP: 31546 Tel. 912-427-4233 =8B Fax 912-427-8447 www.honeybeepreservation.org A 501(c)(3) education and research foundation sponsored by the American Beekeeping Federation=20 *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 20:16:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... In-Reply-To: <7dd5575e0703031432q26af08a0t48a457de7bf75f55@mail.gmail.co m> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Why should honeybee-recruits need anything more than odor? I've listened to this debate...for what seems years now. The same old things, back and forth, back and forth. I would never be so presumptuous as to say that I have the final answers. But... Of those who say it is all about odor answer me this. Why then do bees dance? For the fun of it? Mike *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 21:36:29 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ruth stated flatly: > But, each individual scout naturally carries odors > only from the specific site it had itself inspected. I've asked before, but I'll try again, in hope of getting an aactual answer rather than mere distain for daring to ask the question: How does one "site" have a unique odor, different from all other sites? Further, how does any bee somehow detect that specific and unique odor near the hive, and follow it to the site at issue? > Why should honeybee-recruits need anything more than odor? This is exactly like asking: "Why should a tautology need anything more than itself?" :) *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 01:52:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Contributions to CCD Research Comments: cc: christih@cox.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please bear with me again -- in my post of this morning, I put the contact =20 information for the two research Foundations in a double column format -- wh= ich=20 I see worked on one my mail systems, but got scrambled on the other. So, =20 it may be unreadable to many of you on Bee-L, my apologies. =20 This afternoon, Troy Fore provided the correct contact and tax information=20 about the Foundation for the Preservation of the Honey Bee. =20 I'm not sure that Christi Heintz, staff member for PAm follows Bee-L, so I'= m=20 sharing the brochure that she distributed at the National Meeting in =20 January, and her communications regarding contributions to CCD via PAm. =20 Many of you may not be aware of PAm. =20 Project Apis m. (PAm) is a Honey Bee Research Foundation, whose mission is= =20 to fund and direct research to improve the health and vitality of honey bee= =20 colonies. PAm is asking for a buck a hive from beekeepers and growers (in=20 particular, beekeepers and growers involved with almonds). =20 =20 For more information, you can contact PAm.Board members: =20 Dan Cummings (_dcummings@cvinc.ws_ (mailto:dcummings@cvinc.ws) ), Lyle=20 Johnston (_johnstonhoney@aim.com_ (mailto:johnstonhoney@aim.com) ), Steve Pa= rk=20 (_stevepark@frontiernet.net_ (mailto:stevepark@frontiernet.net) ), Joe Tray= nor=20 (_jotraynor@aol.com_ (mailto:jotraynor@aol.com) ), Joe MacIIvaine=20 (_joemac@paramountfarming.com_ (mailto:joemac@paramountfarming.com) ). Chr= is Heintz=20 (_christi@cox.net_ (mailto:christi@cox.net) )=20 =20 With respect to serving to accept donations, Chris sent this e-mail to me i= n=20 January: =20 Jerry =20 Per our discussion about the upcoming March ABJ article and PAm serving as= =20 the pass-through foundation to receive CCD funding, PAm passed the motion t= o=20 allow this to occur. No fee.=20 They recognize the timeliness of the situation and thank you for the=20 opportunity to build recognition for PAm and be of service to something th= is=20 important.=20 Please send contributions to:=20 Project Apis m.=20 1750 Dayton Rd.=20 Chico, CA 95928=20 Have the contributor put =E2=80=9CCCD=E2=80=9D in the memo line.=20 Let me know what happens next week,=20 Chris=20 =20 ****=20 Christi M. Heintz - =20 _christih@cox.net_ (mailto:christih@cox.net) =20 520.834.2832 cell =20 520.829.6754 home=20 ****************************************************************************= ** ***************************************=20 PAm was established by beekeepers and orchardists in Dec. 2006. PAm brings= =20 together representatives of the American Honey Producers (AHPA), American=20 Beekeeping Federation (ABF), the National Honey Board (NHB), California Sta= te=20 Beekeepers (CSBA), and California Almond farmers.=20 Additionally, PAm's vision is to:=20 1. Be a non-profit organization representing beekeepers nationally;=20 2. Be a pro-active, project-driven entity pursuing objective, timely, and=20 realistic solutions to beekeeping challenges including maintaining and=20 improving honey bee health and pollination strategies;=20 3. Maintain foremost in mind, the economic viability of beekeeping=20 businesses'=20 4. Maintain a well-coordinated research program, seeking maxmum value for=20 the research dollar, while also recognizing the need for California-based=20 research and the importance of California pollinated crops;=20 5. Support education efforts that effectively transfer research results to= =20 field practice;=20 6. Work collaboratively with other allied organizations toward common=20 goals.=20 So, people have a choice of two Foundations who have stepped up to the plat= e=20 and have offered to provide a mechanism for beekeepers, growers, and the=20 general public to contribute to work leading, hopefully, to a solution for=20= the=20 beekeeping industry and the growers who depend on bees for pollination.=20 Jerry=20 (mailto:christih@cox.net)=20


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AOL now offers free=20 email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at=20 http://www.aol.com. *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 20:17:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Townsend Organization: TPLR Honey Farms Ltd. Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... In-Reply-To: <004701c75de6$98d70c80$5d846a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: > Waldemar asked: >> >> Does anybody know if sugar water has a scent? Waldemar; We have added peppermint oil to our syrup for years, the bees are on it before I am done filling the drums. We practice open feeding, some beekeepers use vanilla extract and say it works the same. Tim Townsend *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:29:35 +0000 Reply-To: pencaemawr@f2s.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Burgess Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... In-Reply-To: <7dd5575e0703031432q26af08a0t48a457de7bf75f55@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ruth Rosin wrote: > > Flying insects in > general, including solitary insects, can find sources of attractive > odors in > the field by use of nothing other than odors. Or do they find food sources by random search? Solitary insects, by definition, do not need a mechanism to convey information about food sources to others. John B *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 09:59:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... Comments: To: mpalmer@TOGETHER.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Palmer wrote: >Why then do bees dance? For the fun of it? "Many animals have remarkable structures and/or behavioral patterns. The discovery of yet another remarkable event among animals will find a ready acceptance in a basically optimistic audience. One need observe bees for only a very short period of time before becoming impressed with the many human-like actions they have. An anthropomorphic interpretation may soon follow, even if subconsciously." In the case of bees, Wenner argued that the dance information "may well be only a symptom of what a foraging bee has experienced as it flies between hive and food place, not a signal for other bees. But for von Frisch, complex instincts demanded functional explanations. This deep-rooted commitment to evolutionary explanations marked what was perhaps the most unbridgeable difference between him and his young adversary. Wenner's admission of the bees' complex dances followed by his steadfast denial of their communicative function amounted to an incomprehensible, biological non sequitur for von Frisch. Von Frisch: "What always amazes me is that he finds so many supporters in the US, even though he maintains that the direction and distance information goes unheeded by the alarmed hive mates. Especially since there are no elaborate behaviors without specific functions. How could such a differentiated dance have evolved if it had no biological significance? Apparently Wenner and his followers don't trouble themselves with this." Griffin had been a long-time supporter of von Frisch. He commented on the debate with Wenner and Wells: "I continue to be amazed, even outraged, at the stubborn refusal of Wenner and his colleagues to face the 'fact of life' concerning your brilliant discoveries. I hope, but with no great confidence, that [James] Gould's recent experiments will convince even them. But there seems to be an almost ideological reluctance, bound up I suspect with the strong current of behavioristic reductionism that has been so prominent among behavioral scientists in America." Griffin linked Wenner's obstinacy to his behaviorist tendencies but felt the situation was not hopeless. He sensed that behaviorism had run its course and was giving way to other approaches: "I am convinced that this [behaviorist] tide has turned Gould in his Science piece recognized as much: "Some of the resistance to the idea that honey bees possess a symbolic language seems to have arisen from a conviction that 'lower' animals, and insects in particular, are too small and phylogenetically remote to be capable of 'complex behavior." But complex behaviors were coming back into vogue during the 1960s and '70s, and many saw von Frisch's work as an important arrow in the anti-behaviorist's quiver. But the dispute over the bee dances was never just about whether the bees locate foods by means of a dance language or simply by reacting to odor cues. At stake were competing visions of animals and their behaviors and how science could best come to know them. Von Frisch neither fought nor won the battle by himself, as James Gould's decisive role in the debate suggests. His theory offered an interpretive flexibility that allowed it to be incorporated into a range of programs, like the sociobiological perspective of E.O. Wilson or the more cognitive turn embraced by Donald Griffin. Indeed, von Frisch’s case was picked up by a range of scientists reacting to the overly restrictive behaviorism that had dominated much of the century’s American studies of behavior. FROM: The Bee Battles: Karl von Frisch, Adrian Wenner and the Honey Bee Dance Language Controversy By TANIA MUNZ History of Science Princeton University Journal of the History of Biology (2005) 38: 535–570 *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 12:07:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Don Cole Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John B wrote. Or do bees find food sources by random search? Wind direction might be considered random.The search behavior of bees,''zigzagging up wind while in the odor plume'' is consistent and predictable when a bee is searching for a land mine or a flower. When a bee loses the plume it switches to a casting mode; a wide zigzag or a looping up that drops it back downwind in position to relocate the plume. Bee researchers watching bees approach a feeding station with binoculars have documented this behavior. The recent BEE-L posts are an indication we will be looking at more experiments designed to prove the DL hypotheses .The millions spent on this type of research is creating it's own unsavory odor plume. Don Cole *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 19:06:22 +0000 Reply-To: pencaemawr@f2s.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Burgess Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don Cole wrote: > John B wrote. > > Or do bees find food sources by random search? > > Sorry, I wasn't completely clear. I wrote "Do they find food sources by random search?", referring to solitary insects, not bees. John B *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 15:32:10 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "In the case of bees, Wenner argued that the dance information > may well be only a symptom of what a foraging bee has > experienced as it flies between hive and food place, not a > signal for other bees." Well, if it is NOT a "signal", and is, instead, a mere "symptom", then why would bees exhibit starkly different dance behavior in tropical locations when the sun rises and sets to the North of the hive from their behavior when the sun is consistently South of the hive? http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/39/2/271.pdf Given that the dance angles associated with the same foraging area are different when the sun is near, at, or on one side or the other of zenith, one seems forced to accept: a) That there is a deliberate attempt to demonstrate a vector with a specific direction b) That the vector is consistently demonstrated in terms of an angle from the sun's position, subject to the limits of a bee's ability to sense and/or project the movement/position of the sun. c) That the bees are forced to make these changes in their dancing, and even dance less during periods when the sun is at or very near zenith exactly because it is more difficult to deliver information of value to other bees at these unique times. If the dances were a mere "symptom", then they would not change by a predictable amount as the sun moves through zenith on its seasonal path from north to south or south to north, nor would dances be less frequent and/or "confused" when the sun is exactly at zenith. If there are other possible interpretations, I'd sure like to hear them, as this is yet another case where conditions appear to force the bees to act in highly unusual ways, yet their actions consistently appear to be very good examples of expressing the same information using the same simple rules. Changing conditions that force obvious changes in the expression itself, in this case the "angle" of the waggle runs, tend to support the contention that there is purpose behind their actions, and that the information content is not some sort of anthropomorphic jump to a conclusion *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 17:37:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Gould's "proof" for the existence of the honeybee DL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Peter Borst very recently quoted Tania Munz's touting of Gould's claim to have experimentally confirmed use of DL information under v. Frisch's conditions. This is not surprising at all. The "proof", published by James L. Gould in *Nature* of 1974, *Science* of 1975, and *J. comp. Physiol. * of 1975, was capped by his publication in *Quart. Rev. Biol*. of 1975; where he claimed (highly prematurely) to have finally closed the DL controversy once and for all. His claims have been touted by him, and by many other staunch DL practically everywhere. And there seems no end to this. I have debunked his claims in several articles published in refereed journals in several articles (starting in 1978), and much more efficiently, on very many websites on the Internet, since then.different on the Internet; to the point that I thought I might have done so on Bee-L too. However, irrespective of whether I had, or had not done that, I shall dismiss Gould's claims through a very short shrift here. His claims are based on his interpretations of data concerning distributions of new-arrivals he obtained in various teats using small, man-made, sources of attractive odors (made identical in every controllable aspect), distributed at various sites in the field. His interpretations are, however, based on his own expectations from use of odor alone all alone, that make the interpretations totally irrelevant.to the whole DL controversy. He assumes that when recruits use odor all along, they still use information about the approximate site of their foragers' food-source. Except that instead of obtaining the information from foragers'-dances, they obtain it from the natural locale-odors the foragers carry into the hive from the locale of their food-source. How do they do it? They presumably identify that locale on a map of the "olfactory landscape" over the whole foraging area of the colony, which they stored in memory, based on previous experience in , simply because DL opponents have always taken it for granted that honeybee-recruits use odor alone all along to find attractive odor-sources in the field, just as flying insects in general do it. And this includes solitary flying insects, that have no one to provide them with any information about the approximate site of any source of attractive odors, through dances, or through specific natural locale-odors. Case closed! And this is not even the worst problem Gould's claims have. But for staunch DL supporters, any logical analysis which discredits claims for the existence of the honeybee DL is "evil", and they will "see no evil", "hear no evil", and "speak no evil". They have simply closed their minds, beyond the point of no return! Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 18:07:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: the existence of the honeybee DL, or not... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I for one have had enough. Is too! Is not! This published source = says, "Is too!" This published source says. "Is not!" Personally, "Is = too!" or "Is not!" hasn't swayed me one way or another, and frankly = whether it is or it isn't won't impact how I keep bees one way or = another. =20 Both staunch parties have written (and I quote), "Case closed!" And = both staunch parties have written that this is a controversy that just = seems to have no end. Neither the pro nor the con camp have been = swayed. Hint: To put an end to this endless debate, STOP POSTING ABOUT = IT!!! =20 I'd rather spend my time reading about something that will impact my = beekeeping. =20 Aaron Morris - thinking, "Is too, is not! It's endless!" *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 12:25:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: How long to keep oxalic acid syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>You don't want to keep oxalic sugar water solution for more than a few days even in refrigeration. Hi Waldemar, What data do you base this recommendation on? The study cited by Dave indicates that the refrigerated solution would not degrade to HMF almost indefinitely. Randy Oliver *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 18:49:15 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Phipps Subject: Re: Getting a handle on total bee losses from CCD, request to Bee-L In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would be quite willing to help by acting as a collection station for data from non-USA beekeepers so that CCD can be seen from a broader base. John Phipps Editor The Beekeepers Quarterly Neochori Agios Nikoloaos Messinias Greece email: jdphipps@otenet.gr *********************************************************************************** * BEE-L is hosted at the State University of New York at Albany. * * Please fill out the Colony Collapse Disorder survey at http://www.beesurvey.com * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:17:58 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Why should honeybee-recruits need anything more than odor? Honey bees certainly have exceptional 'noses' but can they smell a solitary stand of blooming linden a mile away, say, downwind? >>Flying insects in general, including solitary insects, can find sources of attractive odors in the field by use of nothing other than odors. But solitary pollinators don't communicate with each other. >>Scouts certainly carry back to the swarm the odors of the prospective nest-site they inspected. But, each individual scout naturally carries odors only from the specific site it had itself inspected. While this may be possible, I'd love read some good references on this. Waldemar *********************************************************************************** Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:26:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Getting a handle on total bee losses from CCD, request to Bee-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John That would be wonderful. Jerry


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:21:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Getting a handle on total bee losses from CCD, request to Bee-L Comments: To: Jerry Bromenshenk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry I wonder if you could give some pointers on what to tell beekeepers who believe they have experienced the Colony Collapse. So far as I know, there is no specific pathogen associated with it (speculation: aspergillus). Would you advise destroying combs? I believe you have already said to avoid putting good bees into hives that collapsed. So the question remains: what to do with the equipment? If the disorder has primarily to do with the honey bee immune system, then one can't really justify the expense of destroying combs. What is the recommendation at this point? Peter Borst *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:37:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Getting a handle on total bee losses from CCD, request to Bee-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter The CCD will have a FAQ list responding to questions and recommendations available in the next day or so. Jerry


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:57:28 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: the existence of the honeybee DL, or not... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I for one have had enough. Is too! Is not! This published source says, > "Is too!" This published source says. "Is not!" Personally, "Is too!" or > "Is not!" hasn't swayed me one way or another, and frankly whether it is > or it isn't won't impact how I keep bees one way or another. Interesting. In my life as a commercial beekeeper, the theories of how bees find and communicate their food sources have always been in the back of my mind when working bees. This topic is very central--more central than many we see here--to Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology. Someof these ideas were very useful, too when using abandonment to clear supers, open feeding, and also to locate hives. Moreover, the idea if bee language is fascinating to the public, and those of us who run exhibits in public places need to know whether we are informing the public correctly, or relating a fascinating hypothesis when we point out dancing bees in an observation hive. Many beekeepers are not even aware that ther are credible arguements against the hypothesis. > Both staunch parties have written (and I quote), "Case closed!" And both > staunch parties have written that this is a controversy that just seems to > have no end. Neither the pro nor the con camp have been swayed. I cannot really say much about the manners and attitudes displayed by some of some of the advocates, but for the many of us in the middle, trying to understand all the observations, speculations, proofs and disproofs, the debate-- where it has been a debate and not a mud-wrestle -- has turned up or revealed new sides to some pretty interesting concepts, not to mention the useful references. > Hint: To put an end to this endless debate, STOP POSTING ABOUT IT!!! I hope that people do continue to discuss this, but in a more tolerant and good-himoured way. > I'd rather spend my time reading about something that will impact my > beekeeping. Sorry. I realise that you have to read *everything*, but most of us are able to delete, and even killfile. This should IMO, impact everyone's beekeeping. Thanks for being there. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:13:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Getting a handle on total bee losses from CCD, request to Bee-L In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm curious too. How can anyone diagnose CCD for themselves and especially as an Apiary Inspector, like Peter? Knowing the NYS Apiary Inspection Service I would think that the powers that be (or the new State Apiarist when installed) would not want the Apiary Inspectors to say one way or the other as to whether someones colonies died from CCD. Not without lab confirmation anyway. It has been the NYS Ag&Mkts policy, in the past, to not make recommendations as to how to treat and what to treat with and especially how to manage ones bees. That's Cornell's job, Nic Calderones job. Ag & Mkts is regulatory and Cornell is Extension. I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who wish it were different, as I do, and maybe a State Apiarist will change that policy. But I don't see how he or she could because of liability. But as a beekeeper, "I wonder if you could give some pointers on what to tell beekeepers who believe they have experienced the Colony Collapse."? Peter Borst wrote: Jerry I wonder if you could give some pointers on what to tell beekeepers who believe they have experienced the Colony Collapse. --------------------------------- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:37:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: How long to keep oxalic acid syrup Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just throw it out, its cheap! No use risking your bee health over a few bucks:) *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:46:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Irwin Harlton Do you have a crop forecast from Argentina? About how much of a crop shortfall having to include old crop inventory? Is it due to hive health, or weather related? Cerious to hear what Argentian honey is being bought for, The grain markets arnt reacting to a poor Argentina crop yet, actually they have hardly moved on the Australian crop! *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:45:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: beekeeping "The ugly stepchild of agriculture" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, http//:www.sptimes.com/2007/03/03/State/Scientists-ask-where.shtml CCD Florida story bob =20=20=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free fr= om AOL at MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "pr.atwola= .com" claiming to be AOL.com.=20 --=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and=20 dangerous content by MailScanner, and is=20 believed to be clean.=20 --=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:10:16 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Message from Project Apis m. for Bee-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris asked me to forward this to Bee-L: =20 =20 Project Apis m. or PAm was established by beekeepers and pollinated-crop=20 representatives in December, 2006, to fund and direct research to improve t= he=20 health of honey bee colonies and thereby enable a greater supply of honey b= ees=20 available for pollinated crops. PAm=E2=80=99s research efforts will focus o= n =20 applied, project-driven studies with practical, realistic solutions for bee= keepers. =20 PAm represents a new vision in research. Traditionally, the Almond Board=20 of California has funded at least half of all U.S. pollination research=20 projects. PAm elevates the impact of beekeepers, as well as pollinated cro= p=20 stakeholders, in directing research. We are at the threshold of exciting ne= w =20 discoveries in bee colony management and PAm is poised to mine those disco= veries.=20 After conducting a thorough survey of research priorities, PAm=E2=80=99s t= op=20 priority is honey bee health and nutrition. To simplify the results of th= e=20 survey, much of what ails the beekeeping industry could be mitigated by str= ong,=20 robust colonies. Vigorous, healthy colonies translates to beekeepers obtain= ing=20 income from all of their available assets. =20 In the short term, PAm will embark on a comprehensive survey of syrup=20 feeding regimes. Samples will be taken at the manufacturer level as well as= at=20 various points within the supply chain, from manufacturer to beekeeper oper= ation,=20 in an effort to understand the variable results of feeding practices. =20 Syrups will be tested for their physical and biological properties as well=20= as=20 presence of contaminants and toxins. Feeding studies on bees will be condu= cted=20 to determine effect on bee health and longevity.=20 Dan Cummings, beekeeper and almond grower, currently is Chairman of the=20 Board for PAm. You may reach him directly at _dcummings@cvinc.ws_=20 (mailto:dcummings@cvinc.ws) . Serving as Executive Director is Chris Heint= z,=20 _christih@cox.net_ (mailto:christih@cox.net) . Board members include Lyle J= ohnston, Steve=20 Park, Joe Traynor and Joe MacIlvaine.=20 You=E2=80=99ll want to be a part of PAm=E2=80=99s research efforts. Contrib= utors will be=20 given the opportunity to have input into PAm=E2=80=99s research priorities=20= and will =20 receive complete reports of research results. The contribution request is=20 $1/hive, beekeeper or grower. PAm is a non-profit organization and your=20 contributions are tax-deductible. Please send your donations to Project Api= s m., 1750=20 Dayton Rd., Chico, CA 95928. =20 As noted previously in the Bee-L ListServ, PAm also serves as a =20 vehicle for contributions to the Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) effort. If= =20 you are contributing to CCD specifically, please make a note in the memo li= ne=20 on your check.=20


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AOL now offers free=20 email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at=20 http://www.aol.com. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:42:57 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe carson Subject: Travel to Germany Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I will be taking a trip to Germany, May this year, and would like to visit Bee operations. Any suggestions as whom to contact? I know no one there so any leads would be appreciated. Dr. Joe Carson Alaska _________________________________________________________________ Win a Zunemake MSN your homepage for your chance to win! http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 21:03:50 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Wax candles in the Boston area. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just had an inquiry from a person in Boston looking for real bees wax candles. Can anyone help? Thank you. Waldemar *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 21:36:24 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: beekeeping "The ugly stepchild of agriculture" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison gave this link: http//:www.sptimes.com/2007/03/03/State/Scientists-ask-where.shtml it should be: http://www.sptimes.com/2007/03/03/State/Scientists_ask__Where.shtml But what a PR disaster this man has caused! Consider some of the phrases used: "It's a lot like AIDS," Hackenberg said. 'And the variety of fungi, viruses and mites found in collapsing hives suggests a widespread failure of the bees' immune systems.' 'This may strain their ability to recover from infections, the report says, and expose them to a wider range of diseases and toxic chemicals.' "They forage over a large area so they pick up a lot of junk," Hayes said. '...an increasingly popular class of pesticides called neonicotinoids...' 'a new strain of fungus that has appeared in many of the failing hives.' I am certainly glad that I do not have to try to sell honey in the US! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:19:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Irwin_Harlton?= Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ian The folowing was taken from http://www.apitrack.com/noticias- 198_en_news.htm 2007-03-01 ARGENTINA- BUENOS AIRES PROVINCE BEEKEEPERS REQUEST AN APICULTURAL EMERGENCY STATUS Before a situation that the local honey producers consider worrisome, the beekeepers of Adolph Gonzales Chaves asked for to the municipal intendant to contact the provincial organism that corresponds, to declare an apicultural emergency, dice the thin yields in the honey harvest, that has been reduced remarkably; fact to which a decrease in its value is added. In to char it with producer and member of Center of Beekeepers of this city, Alberto Amoroso, extended that at the present time, the sector is happening through the worse moment with regard to honey production, this happens at least in almost forty years, that is time that I am in this activity, where never I have had harvest so bad as this year, which I believe that it becomes general in all the southwest, commented 2007-02-27 ARGENTINA- ACTUAL SITUATION OF THE HONEY MARKET Article written by Mr. Martin Braunstein from Malka Queens: The production of honey in Argentina during this season has not satisfied the Beekeepers expectations. Having finalized the harvest in the main zones of prairie, it is not listened to anybody comment about exceptional yields in any zone of the country. You can say that the harvest was late, below average and very erratic, also in areas normally with very good yields. I believe the poor crop was weather related Hearing reports of honey being sold for .65/lb FROM WESTERN CANADA ,hope no canadian beekeepers are giving their crop away. Let's get the news out, emailed CHC but nothing on their web site yet! I would bet prices are going to rise substantily Irwin Harlton *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:58:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Hearing reports of honey being sold for .65/lb FROM WESTERN CANADA ,hope no canadian beekeepers are giving their crop away. Wow! I doubt that! Especially if your talking Canadian. Even if your quoting US dollars, that about 75cents/lbs, way off what I am hearing. Even that is way low for darker classes of honey, Who gave you that quote? *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:12:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Irwin_Harlton?= Subject: Re: beekeeping "The ugly stepchild of agriculture" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Well here in CANADA we don't sell it, we give it away. Have just received a report of honey moving at .65 cents per lb. I see nothing wrong with the reports from these beekeepers , they are making comparisons of diseases and symptoms of illnesses. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:06:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: beekeeping "The ugly stepchild of agriculture" In-Reply-To: <003101c75f6e$535af660$18a16a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, The manner in which problems pressing upon apiculture does need sensitive treatment when put into the public domain. BUT: A problem arises with those who wish to hide problems and the causative agents. During the CJD episode in the UK, the fear of panicking the general public resulted in a Minister of Agriculture insisting that there was no problem with British beef and proved the point by eating a beef burger and stating that he had no problem with his children doing the same. History shows what happen - constant denial in the public domain by understating the facts eventually results in a mistrust culture bouncing back upon the industry concerned. Tell the truth. Vocabulary utilized is critical - but a daily journal is not a scientific publication. Bees are dying - and the comparison that will emphasis the fact results in "headline jargon". Better that than the gentile "Houston we think we have a slight problem". Regards, Peter *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:11:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian, At the risk of Bee_L being accused of price manipulation and cartel like action - what are the price quotes you are hearing? Regards, Peter *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 21:04:37 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: beekeeping "The ugly stepchild of agriculture" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > But what a PR disaster this man has caused! I disagree. I think David honestly described the lack of priority and attention that pollination has suffered with his artful turn of phrase. I'm impressed. I've met Dave, and I had no idea he was so savvy about giving a reporter a "quotable quote". > Consider some of the phrases used: > "It's a lot like AIDS," Hackenberg said. OK, perhaps a bit over the top, but like the "ugly stepchild" phrase, it is exactly the sort of short, pithy, punchy metaphor that is "quotable". If the general public gets the impression that our bees are suffering from an AIDS-like disease, this will be the first time in our lifetimes that the general public has been exposed to a message about bees that does not focusing on stings, Africanized bees, and so on. > "And the variety of fungi, viruses and mites found in > collapsing hives suggests a widespread failure of the bees' > immune systems." Nothing wrong with the above, as Dave is simply explaining HOW the disease at hand might be "like AIDS". > This may strain their ability to recover from infections, the report says, > and expose them to a wider range of diseases and toxic chemicals.' The above was the reporter's summary of the REPORT published by researchers, not a statement by Dave Hackenberg. > "They forage over a large area so they pick up a lot of junk," Hayes said. OK, not the best PR one might want for honey, but this was Jerry Hayes speaking, the State Apiarist for Florida and IF he was accurately quoted (a rare thing when one is quoted by the press), I'm sure he does not need any of us to remind him of the wider issue of protecting "the image of honey". > [The "prime suspect" for the collapse, according to Hackenberg, is] > ...an increasingly popular class of pesticides called neonicotinoids... > a new strain of fungus that has appeared in many of the failing hives. Nothing wrong with talking about pesticides being a possible cause of CCD, but I think that neonicotinoids have been ruled out as a "prime suspect" by now. > I am certainly glad that I do not have to try to sell honey in the US! The St. Petersburg Times is not even a "regional" paper like the Orlando Sentinel or the Miami Herald, let alone one with a nationwide readership, so I don't think that much damage has been done with these quotes. Regardless, don't beat up on Jerry - he's working hard to try and help find out what's killing the hives, and does not need a bunch of Monday-morning quarterbacks critiquing his skills as a spokesman. Forgot... Peter's from the UK... A "Monday-morning quarterback" is a guy who tells everyone at the office what the actual quarterback in Sunday's game of football (the US variety, not soccer) should have done. (Except we ought to call them "Tuesday-morning quarterbacks", given that the big games are now played and televised on Monday nights, but that's a whole 'nother level of detail you didn't care about.) *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 10:46:02 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? In-Reply-To: <45ECBFDA.1060005@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed 65c US...........that would be............USD 1430/tonne.....ex works. Followed by various incredulous remarks This weeks offers from Bremen Germany from a main broker. (Heinz Gruber, brokers for many of the biggest packers.) Canadian polyflora, white, max 25mm USD 1920 CFR Chinese white, max 34mm USD 1395/tonne CIF ! March shipment. So claiming the Chinese will not sell at these levels is clearly wrong. Thats 63.4c DELIVERED to Europe! For April May shipment they have Chinese white, max 25mm.........USD 1275/tonne................57.95 cents...delivered No price for Argentine this week, but they have been sending out internally generated warnings on crop level for some time, but the concensus in the European traders is that the picture in Argentina is very mixed, and they have been talking down their harvest to stem a crash in prices, which fell by 200 dollars a tonne in December alone. On 14th Feb Argentine white, max 34mm was USD 1410 FOB......so sea freight to add. Current cheapest is Vietnamese at USD 1250/ tonne Within Europe there are offerings at the following lowest rates Czech polyflora/ rape (canola) USD 2150...free delivered to buyers warehouse Romanian white polyflora USD 1985..free delivered to buyers warehouse I get these sheets of offerings once or twice every week.................so a purchase at 65cUS ex farm in Canada? Entirely possible given the rates quoted. -- Murray McGregor *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 21:45:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? In-Reply-To: <45ECBFDA.1060005@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: Argentinean crops: Quote from: http://www.ams.usda.gov/fv/mncs/honey.pdf Under the Californian section ".... combined with record to near record crops in Argentina and other Latin American countries prices actually dropped.." Confused! Peter *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:18:26 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: beekeeping "The ugly stepchild of agriculture" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Irwin Harlton" wrote: > Have just received > a report of honey moving at .65 cents per lb. Even the Chinese would not sell it for that price now! > I see nothing wrong with the reports from these beekeepers , they are > making comparisons of diseases and symptoms of illnesses. Fine in the beekeeping press - but this was an interview in the St Peterburg Times. What sort of an image did it create for honey? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 20:47:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Erin Martin Subject: CCD on Colbert! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Anyone else see this? Stephen Colbert mentioned the bee die-off and suggested bee hoarding for profit. ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 20:37:02 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: How long to keep oxalic acid syrup Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy, >>>You don't want to keep oxalic sugar water solution for more than a few days even in refrigeration. >What data do you base this recommendation on? The study cited by Dave indicates that the refrigerated solution would not degrade to HMF almost indefinitely. I guess I need to backtrack. :) I do recall reading that oxalic acid solution should not be kept too long even in refrigeration. However, the Swiss lab has looked into it and their work showed that, stored at 4C or colder, there will be a maximum of 22mg of HMF per kg of solution beyond some 48 weeks of storage. http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/sanidad/varroa/acido_oxalico_ rago_jarabe.pdf Since this may be a safe level to the bees, it appears you can keep OA solution at =< 4C short term. I treat once a year and I can treat all my hives in one day, it does not make sense to try to keep OA solution to the following year. Thanks. Waldemar *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:58:46 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "robin.dartington" Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray McGregor: "max 25mm USD 1920 CFR; CIF !; tonne" Interesting comparisons - could I ask for clarification of the commercial terminology - so an amateur can understand what the competition in UK is when taking jars to the local deli. Robin *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:43:50 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? In-Reply-To: <200703061158.l26BwceH026134@smtp3.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <200703061158.l26BwceH026134@smtp3.albany.edu>, robin.dartington writes >Interesting comparisons - could I ask for clarification of the commercial >terminology - so an amateur can understand what the competition in UK is >when taking jars to the local deli. These are standard trade terms used in trade contracts and quotations, and all are defined under international agreements in a form known as 'INCOTERMS 2000' For anyone's convenience here is a wall chart (its needs acrobat) that can be printed which gives a brief explanation of each term and the risks and responsibilities associated with each term. http://www.iccwbo.org/incoterms/wallchart/wallchart.pdf If you just want to read them then this link is good, and you can then click each term for a fuller definition. http://www.iccwbo.org/incoterms/id3040/index.html CFR, which related to the first Canadian item, means the Canadian seller was paying the freight as far as the European port. As regards an amateurs honey to the local deli? No relevance at all, its apples and oranges again..........your tonnage will not be on the radar as regards international trade, so get as much as you can for it. It IS relevant to sellers of bulk honey into the general trade, as this is the information that needs to be understood to work backwards to have an idea of what the beekeeper can expect to have been getting. It is important to most nations, as the larger producers need to sell in bulk (even here in the UK......I sold ALL my harvest in bulk in steel drums), and is of special interest to those in Canada, USA, South America, Australia, and New Zealand, where many are producing so much honey in areas of relatively sparse population, that the packed trade is NOT a viable option. -- Murray McGregor *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:05:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >Canadian polyflora, white, max 25mm USD >Chinese white, max 34mm USD I might add the above are top grades and lighter than most U.S. grades. Some white is produced in Argentina but most I have seen has been a bakery grade *color*. Sought by packers because of low price and mixed using 8 drums of the bakery grade ( darker honey for those not familiar with the term) mixed with two drums of the white to lighten up. If white is selling in large quantities (typical 10,000 Lb. shipments & up) at or around .65 U.S. on the world market then bakery grades should be lower unless the demand is high. One thing which has changed in my understanding of this years Argentina honey is that we were told by a packer panel at the ABF convention that honey prices were low because last Argentina season produced a larger crop then was expected which seemed to be the case aaaand some packers stocked up. Then we were told this years Argentina crop was expected to be a bumper crop which seems now not to be the case. Bob *************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * **************************************************************************** ******* -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:07:26 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: beekeeping "The ugly stepchild of agriculture" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer and Peter Dillon took me to task for criticising Dave Hackenburg's and Jerry Hayes' comments reported in the St Petersburg Times. I remain unrepentant! Beekeeping is having a hard enough time at present and we all need to be careful with our use of words when talking to the Press. As Peter said 'The manner in which problems pressing upon apiculture does need sensitive treatment when put into the public domain' - Q.E.D.! I am not suggesting that we should engage in some sort of cover up as I would hope that most of us would have nothing to cover up, but we certainly need to avoid associating our product with things like 'AIDS' in the mind of the public. Jim agrees that this was 'perhaps a bit over the top, but like the "ugly stepchild" phrase, it is exactly the sort of short, pithy, punchy metaphor that is "quotable".' Q.E.D. again! I have no problem with the "ugly stepchild", although Cinderella might have been better, but I do not want the comparison with AIDS to be quoted throughout the Press. Jim also implied that the AIDS quote was perhaps a good thing as it might divert public attention away from stings etc. I disagree - I would prefer to have bees associated with stings, rather than a devastating disease. Jim makes the point that 'The St. Petersburg Times is not even a "regional" paper... so I don't think that much damage has been done'. Maybe, maybe not; I do not know the paper - but I do know that it is on the Internet for the world to see and I know that reporters from the major national papers often pick up stories from small local papers. The world is getting smaller - and quotes travel faster then ever before. On the 'junk' quote Jim admits: > OK, not the best PR one might want for honey, but this was Jerry Hayes > speaking, the State Apiarist for Florida and IF he was accurately quoted > (a rare thing when one is quoted by the press), I'm sure he does not need > any of us to remind him of the wider issue of protecting "the image of > honey". Well, either he was accurately quoted, in which case he does need someone to remind him - or he was not accurately quoted, in which case he should have agreed to give an interview only on the condition that he would be given the opportunity to approve the article before publication. > Regardless, don't beat up on Jerry - >From what I read he is working very hard to help establish the truth and I, for one, will be very interested to see whether this really is a 'disease' (Jim says it is: 'Dave is simply explaining HOW the disease at hand...'), or simply a problem with the way the large beekeeping outfits is the US (and perhaps elsewhere) manage their colonies. Giving a set of symptoms a name and handy initials does not make them into a disease! It was interesting to compare these quotes with the language used by our World Honey Queen, Ceri Collingbourne in a recent clip on the BBC programme 'Broadcasting House' where she acknowledged that there appeared to be a problem, wisely refrained from speculation about new diseases, and simply stressed the importance of pollination. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/bh/?focuswin - click listen and then fast forward, items starts at about 36':34" into the program). January's ABJ, which I have just received, had this from Kirk Webster: 'Interest is really building now for a more self-sufficient, healthy and resilient style of non-migratory beekeeping in the northern states. Unstable honey prices, mites, Africanised bees, and the misguided efforts to make beekeeping fit into an industrial and business model have all converged to leave our community in a kind of smouldering ruin, and the number of colonies in the U.S. at dangerously low levels.' But I am sure that you all knew that. I also had this in an email from a Canadian beekeeper: 'I'm following what's on Bee-L and it seems to be the big guys who seem not to be able to manage what they have because of their size and they seem to be the contributing factor in their own demise (as usual).' I do not know whether that is a fair analysis and, until Jerry B comes up with an explanation, neither it seems does anyone else. Presumably, if it is shown that the 'problem' has not affected small beekeepers then we will have the answer? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 08:21:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? In-Reply-To: <002701c75ff0$353f9e60$1fbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Bob Harrison said: Sought by packers because of low price and mixed using 8 drums of the bakery grade ( darker honey for those not familiar with the term) mixed with two drums of the white to lighten up. I might add. "............ to lighten up and make it edible". I have seen that mixing in some honey packers places. Then honey is bottled and gets the label "Canada Grade 1". Interesting! Medhat *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 08:59:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: bakery honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I might add that most commercial beekeepers try to keep at least one bakery account. Mine is dependable. Somewhat picky at times. A few years ago they turned down some heartsease tainted honey I had purchased for their market. I hate to run white honey through the bakery outlet but have at times. About a year ago they said to reduce cost they were going to use some HFCS. I am sure they did as they reduced the amount of honey they were buying. I have yet to see HFCS on their label which is really none of my business but I have looked. The trend to increase HFCS in place of honey in cooking is on the rise. I am looking at a box of Sun Grams " Honey Grahams". The label lists honey towards the last (right after HFCS) which tells me there is a higher amount of HFCS in the product than honey. However on the front of the box is the picture of a jar of honey and honey dripping off a honey dipper. Also "Honey" in the name . I guess "High Fructose Corn Syrup Grahams" would not be a big selling point! I am a label reader when buying my groceries. I would guess (from personal observation) less than 10% of shoppers read ingredient labels. The print is simply too small. Label changes and programs to teach consumers the way to read and understand ingredient labels would be a step in the right direction (in my opinion) to improve truth in labels by having consumers put pressure on government to improve labels. Ingredients information needs to be the same size as nutrition information on labels! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:43:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T'N'T Apiaries Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Wow! I doubt that! Especially if your talking Canadian. > Even if your quoting US dollars, that about 75cents/lbs, way off what I am > hearing. Well, Manitoba must be special, because that is the latest offering to Alberta and Saskatchewan for <25mm from one of Canada's biggest packers. The others will quickly follow suit if they can. I had hoped that no one would bite in this "How low can we go" game and CANNOT confirm that anyone truly has. A pile of honey left beekeepers warehouses over the last 6 weeks at $.75 Can (including a good chunk out of MB), so why not line the packers/brokers pockets a little more. Guys who before Christmas wouldn't move "a" load for $.95, suddenly felt compelled to sell almost two years worth of crop twenty cents cheaper. Just when I thought that stampede was over, out came this latest offer, so am left to assume that the 75 cent supply must still be pretty strong. Dave Tharle Ardmore, AB *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:10:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: beekeeping "The ugly stepchild of agriculture" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter We will have some preliminary analysis available shortly from our surveys. However, this is NOT a problem restricted to large, migratory beekeepers. Beekeepers who experience CCD are big and small, migratory and non-migratory, some are organic, most aren't. Chemicals used to control mites range from none to every permutation on the theme. Of great interest will be what happens now that the weather is warming and beekeepers in the north start opening hives. Jerry


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:26:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: bakery honey In-Reply-To: <001b01c76000$163e5a00$22bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I share your lament about non-honey ingredients in pro-honey products. Perhaps if there is any good to come out of it, at least the manufacturers are keeping the name "honey" in front of the consumers. Subliminal public relations at best. Several of my favorite, childhood breakfast cereals like "Super Sugar Crisp" have gone the way of nutritional correctness even though these cereals remain loaded with sugar (except most of them have renamed the individual sugars, and when renamed, they appear to be in smaller quantities). I've not had much luck talking bakeries into buying honey. Most around here use HFCS. What has been your marketing angle? And how have you competed on the price? Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:46:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Talked to my packer today, in Manitoba, she maintained the honey market is trading 83-85cents Canadian. And she represents a very large sale of Canadian honey. Down considerably from December prices, yes Anyone selling at 65cents Canadian is foolish, and stupid if they passed over 95cents to take 65cents now. Doesnt it seem a little funny to you? Why we allow the packers walk over us every year, I frequent the MidWestern Honey Hot Line - 1-763-658-4193 Last update was Jan22, old news by this time. BUT it is one of many tools we as beekeepers have to utilize, the packers arnt going to tell us the straight up facts, nor are the traders. 65cents is just a scare tactic, and it seems to work everytime! Dad always said, lock in a profit, dont wait for the fortune, *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:16:21 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Subject: Princing and .65/lb???? Irwin Hamilton Wrote: > Hearing reports of honey being sold for .65/lb FROM WESTERN CANADA But no mention of which currency. Ian Steppler expressed confusion of the currency: > Wow! I doubt that! Especially if your talking Canadian. > Even if your quoting US dollars, that about 75cents/lbs, and then Irwin continued with, > Well here in CANADA we don't sell it, we give it away. Have just > received a report of honey moving at .65 cents per lb. But again forgot to mention a currency. Murray McGregor with a very informative response wrote: > 65c US...........that would be............USD 1430/tonne.....ex works. So Murray thinks it's US$ Dave Tharle reports: > A pile of honey left beekeepers warehouses over the last 6 > weeks at $.75 Can (including a good chunk out of MB), So it's looking like the original .65/lb quote is actually US$ given Ian Steppler's calculations. But Ian then states: > Anyone selling at 65cents Canadian is foolish, and > stupid if they passed over 95cents to take 65cents now. Doesnt it seem a > little funny to you? Why we allow the packers walk over us every year, Looks to me like the rumour .65/lb has become Candian $ and in turn has become "fact". Beekeepers don't need packers to walk over them, they do it themselves by not representing the facts clearly. Cheers, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:32:03 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: beekeeping "The ugly stepchild of agriculture" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > compare these quotes with the language used by our > World Honey Queen, Ceri Collingbourne in a recent > clip on the BBC programme 'Broadcasting House' where > she acknowledged that there appeared to be a problem, > wisely refrained from speculation about new diseases, > and simply stressed the importance of pollination. It is easy for someone far removed from the practical work being done to demur from speculating about the cause(s) of the die-offs. Statements from those directly involved in trying to find the root causes that "refrained from speculation" in a similar manner would be viewed as "stonewalling the press". As for the specific statements made by the Honey Queen to the BBC, she brought up the specter of >>>CROP FAILURES<<< as a direct result of the colony losses. "...if crops are going to fail, that's going to be a big problem..." Talk about an over-the-top scare-headline, blown-out-of-proportion, sensational over-reaction! No one has even speculated that CCD might result in any crop failures. If someone in a position of responsibility like Jerry Hayes had used the phrase "crop failure", several different commodity futures markets might have taken a brief nosedive, and the Florida State Department of Agriculture would have likely be forced to fire him for having made such irresponsible comments to the press. Perhaps the Honey Queen's intention was to express concern over honey crops rather than pollinated crops, but when one says "crop" to the general public, they don't think of honey, they think of veggies and fruits and grains. The phrase "crop failure" tends to conjure up an image of starving people waiting in line for USAID and UN food paracels, and Sally Struthers asking us all to send out money now. So, I'd give Dave and Jerry higher marks at "dealing with the press" than I'd give Ceri Collingbourne, as they did not make any statements speculating about widespread famine and the end of civilization as we know it. As Jerry Bromenshenk pointed out in a prior posting, there is a long list of things that are known to NOT the problem, and management practices are clearly not something that can be blamed. In fact, the folks working on the project have given us a few hints, and the term "pathogen" has come up more than once or twice. The lack of any discernable "common factor" between linking the affected colonies not only rules out "management practices", it seems to clearly indicate that the current thinking of those investigating is that we face: a) A pathogen of some sort b) A pathogen that can spread from colony to colony without much "help" from the beekeeper So, it is something new. Anyone want to give odds that we will end up seeing this called "Bee AIDS" in the press, just as Varroa seems to be called the "vampire mite" by the press more often than not? *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:48:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: beekeeping "The ugly stepchild of agriculture" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, Jim said: > and management practices are clearly not something that can be blamed. Not from the people involved with the problem I have spoken with. Many of us feel the problem has everything to do with management! Dann Purvis pretty well sums up what many of us think about CCD in his ABJ letter to the editor in the March issue! Bob **************************************************************************** ******* * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * **************************************************************************** ******* -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:44:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Irwin_Harlton?= Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Murray McGreger wrote. "It IS relevant to sellers of bulk honey into the general trade, as this is the information that needs to be understood to work backwards to have an idea of what the beekeeper can expect to have been getting. It is important to most nations, as the larger producers need to sell in bulk (even here in the UK......I sold ALL my harvest in bulk in steel drums), and is of special interest to those in Canada, USA, South America, Australia, and New Zealand, where many are producing so much honey in areas of relatively sparse population, that the packed trade is NOT a viable option." Sorry Murray I disagree that any local beekeepers price on the shelf influences any packers price, I could be wrong but I think whch ever packer has the most lowest priced inventory sets the price and he is usually after more market share with it."He who has the most gold wins" "Viable options" are even less in Canada and the USA where a beekeeper packer has to compete with the cheaper imports on the shelf with the grade canada #1 in bold letters on the front and the country of orgin in fine print on the back. We can thank our friendly CFIA for the present screwed up label laws , which they promised to change in 2002. Your information on prices from broker in Germany are all less than $1/lb, yet when I check the shelf prices in Germany they are 4 euros for 500gm, seems to be a large profit margin here.Am I right, please correct me if I am wrong. The packers in Germany also run a closed shop where by they elimate any foreign competition of packed honey , packed anywhwere else. The only solution I see is a honey cartel, it worked for the oil countries, why wouldn't it work for us.Many different countries were involved in the oil cartel. That .65 price was in Canadian funds as far as I know and is well below my cost of production and alot of others.Those selling at .65 or .70 or .75 are caught between a rock and a hard place. Irwin Harlton *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:05:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Irwin_Harlton?= Subject: Re: Princing and .65/lb???? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Bray; Sorry I might have confused you I thought it was pretty obvious that I was quoting a offer to buy at .65 canadian funds,I have not heard of any takers of this offer, and I hope there are none. THE OLD PACKER PLAY "WELL I GOT 30 -40 LOADS at.75 maybe I am paying too much , better drop my price, cause I know come sooner or later I am going to pay more" "Beekeepers don't need packers to walk over them, they do it themselves by not representing the facts clearly." Unfortunately we do need packers in this country, even if SOME are the lowest thing that crawls. SOME ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS. There is no one walking over anyone, those that sell for less know what there stuff is worth.The facts are represented as clearly as possible, I live in Canada, it was a canadian offer, no buyer in canada buys in another currancy. Perhaps things are done different in New Zealand, care to comment? Irwin *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:12:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: Princing and .65/lb???? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Beekeepers don't need packers to walk over them, they do it themselves by not representing the facts clearly. Got it straight yet Peter? I have got confermation of both prices being offered Canadian funds. We have seen the same situation happen to the packing industry not too long ago. Where the packing industry was caught so short, even a single shipment automatically became going price. I know of reports of beekeepers locking in 2.75$ Canadian of honey near the end of the whole episode. But this is far from that kind of situation, did talk to a packer who quoted 75cents Canadian, but he was not buying much honey at that. On a wait and see mode of action. I believe the market holds much higher than that. It will be interesting to see how the next few months influence the market place. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:54:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >That .65 price was in Canadian funds as far as I know and is well below my cost of production and a lot of others. Well below? Cost of production is an interesting term. A few thoughts about "cost of production" and the following does not pertain to Irwin and is only general thoughts on "cost of production" Many beekeepers have not got a clue what their "cost of production" is. They go about doing what they do each year and try to get the best price for their honey crop. Cost of production is not fixed. Can be improved when price of honey is down ( .65-.75)and not worried about as much when price of honey is up( $1-$1.50). Having been in the office of the second largest beekeeping operation in the world many times I have watched the operation reduce cost of production. Some ways: Less feed ( instead of blanket feeding only feed when bees absolutely need feed ) Less trips to bees ( stay longer and do the chores of two trips on a single trip) Use smaller trucks for checking bees. ( I use this method now ALL the time. I only use the size truck needed for the job) reduce hive numbers used for honey production. ( common method during times of poor honey prices and little packer interest) put off replacing equipment when income is down. ( very common during periods of low honey prices) Each operation has a different "cost of production" . Irwin knows his which is a big advantage. If the beekeeper is in the honey production* only* business then cost of production is tied directly to pounds produced per hive. In other words if you reach "cost of prodduction" at a fifty pound per hive average and the years production is a 100 pounds then you can make money selling at a lower price. Cost of production is important to understand. Maybe others will add ways they try to reduce "cost of production" in times of low honey prices if selling only bulk wholesale in drums such as Murray does. Bob **************************************************************************** ******* * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * **************************************************************************** ******* -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 21:26:35 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: bakery honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've not had much luck talking bakeries into buying honey. > Most around here use HFCS. Then you are wasting your time talking to the wrong bakeries. What you want is an "artisan baker", someone who is not as worried about "low cost" as about quality. These bakeries tend to be smaller concerns. > ...non-honey ingredients in pro-honey products I've been trying to keep up with the packaged food fraud of adding perceived value by putting the word "Honey" in large letters on the box, but putting little or no actual honey in the boxes. The goal here is to inform, ridicule, and shame, so we call it "The Wall Of Shame". http://bee-quick.com/wall > ..."Super Sugar Crisp" Well, at least they were up front about the type of sweetener used, so they have not been nailed up on the Wall Of Shame. They changed the name to "Golden Crisp" when sugar suddenly became a "bad thing", and then stopped selling it in most of the US. One can still buy it in Canada, and via mail-order. The amazing thing is that they actually DO use honey in "Super Sugar Crisp", yet unlike everything from "Honey Bunches Of Oats" to "Honey Smacks", they do NOT mention "honey" on the front of the box ("Ingredients: Sugar, Wheat, Corn Syrup, Partially Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, Honey, Caramel Color, Salt, Vitamins and Minerals") *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 21:54:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Irwin_Harlton?= Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ther are 5 beekeeping outfits, in western canada, that are going to cut their cost of production to zero.They are getting out of this bussiness.They are having their auction sale this spring, been there, done that ,got the t shirt. Reasons could be all different, or might be close to same. Most are medium size, none are what I call large operators. Perhaps they are wanting to retire, or maybe they are tired of producing honey with little or no profit.The industry does not seem to be healthy from the producer end. When the US border closed in 1986 to package bees things changed, but we canucks have every disease and pest the US beekeepers have, but we don't have any African bees, big deal,the border closure bought us time but made us very inefficent.Wintering costs more than package bees. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 01:28:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: SSDD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:48:56 -0600, Bob Harrison wrote: >Dann Purvis pretty well sums up what many of us think about CCD in his ABJ >letter to the editor in the March issue! > I just received my issue today and personally could not agree more with his letter....... I might ad I spoke with Marla Spivak by phone a week or so ago and she indicated a similar opinion of CCD which is not a surprise if you know her as she has been warning for years of impending problems. Check out Dann Purvis's website http://web.mac.com/dannpurvis/iWeb/Purvis%20Brothers%20Bees.com/Response%20to%20Letter %20to%20the%20editor%20of%20American%20Bee%20Journal%20March%202007.html or if link does not work try http://web.mac.com/dannpurvis/iWeb/Purvis%20Brothers%20Bees.com/Home.html and look under References heading to see what I felt was an amusing exchange he had with a CCD "victim" concerning his letter in ABJ. I was Rolling On the Floor Laughing (ROFLMAO) by the end. Its long but stay with it as the final exchange is way too funny. Earth to CCD victims come in ...! Over! *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:28:22 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Princing and .65/lb???? In-Reply-To: <45EE90F5.5964.1FD84E@Peter.airborne.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <45EE90F5.5964.1FD84E@Peter.airborne.co.nz>, Peter Bray writes >Murray McGregor with a very informative response wrote: >> 65c US...........that would be............USD 1430/tonne.....ex works. >So Murray thinks it's US$ I did not claim to KNOW it was USD. I merely speculated that.........as international trade in honey seems to be mainly conducted in USD or EUR......and given the way the market is going down, and the time lag for supplies to get far enough through the system for the German brokers to be placing it.............that the figure was not an inconceivable one in US currency. If its indeed 65c Canadian, then the European market probably still has some way to fall yet. The market finds its level............but 65c Canadian sounds LOW.............trouble ahead I suspect, but holding out for more with the creditors beating at the door, the diesel tank empty, and no syrup for hungry bees, is hard. The trouble will hit all honey competing for the same niche..........so NZ clover will take a kicking too. -- Murray McGregor *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:13:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: bakery honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Grant & All, Still saving souls? ( Grant is a preacher) If you run out of souls to save in your area I could point you in the direction of a few of my beekeeping friends! > Most around here use HFCS. In Honey bread using honey on the label? >What has been your marketing angle? My bakery sells some products made from local honey and advertises local honey as an ingredient. The bakery likes the fact I have never been able not to supply * local* honey. And how have you competed on the price? Lower price than other local beekeepers. If I buy local honey for the bakery I add a reasonable mark up for obtaining , processing and delivery. I prefer to sell honey (late fall) from my own hives but like last fall the supply was short. The fall honey I did get last fall I am selling as *wildflower* in a special pack. My *wildflower* sales are a small part of sales. My white Clover honey is what sells. Both to the public and to packers. The last two drought years have been below average honey production. I need a good production year to replace the surplus drums I usually keep around. I always tried to keep a surplus of honey around in case of a drought year but around three years ago when honey climbed to a buck fifty a pound I sold my inventory. I turn away buyers looking for large lots of drums on a regular basis but I doubt they would want to pay a buck fifty a pound so I guess I made the right move back then. I have got friends sitting on hundreds of barrels of honey waiting for the price to return to a buck fifty. Several packers told me they would NEVER get caught in a position they had to pay such a high price for bulk honey again. Its all supply and demand. To keep contracts packers will pay the going rate regardless. As an example of supply and demand today a honey customer said he bought fescue grass square bales for almost six dollars a bale last winter. Those go for fifty to seventy cents a bale at the sale barn when plentiful! To add insult to injury I told the customer my 2007 honey prices which were higher than last time he bought. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Missouri ******************************************************* * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * **************************************************************************** ******* -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:41:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: SSDD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All, Dann Purvis is not as the letter to Dann suggests *out of the loop*. Many of us have been put down for believing the beekeeping industry is on the wrong course to survive. Quote by Dann Purvis from letter: " I have temporarily given up on our government assisting us ( beekeepers). THEY TOO EASILY FUND FAILURE" I also am of the above mindset! Several years ago Horace Bell (second largest beekeeper in the U.S. and now retired) predicted the current crash. The crash will happen he told me. After spending days pouring over research from many sources he provided I agreed. The Dann Purvis plan outlined in his letter is real action and not simply the current ( survey sez) documentation. Once the labs return the verdict that there is no new beekeeping problem. Then I suggest the funds be directed to the Dann Purvis plan ( or similar plan). I might add that I do not believe Bee Alert Tech, Florida Apiary inspection, Penn State or the USDA-ARS has the people to pull off the solution outlined in the Dann Purvis letter. I mean no disrespect to those people but training would be needed when the Purvis Brothers Apiaries is ready to start as soon as possible. I believe many people with instrumental insemination skills would volunteer their help. Even myself. Check out Dann Purvis's website http://web.mac.com/dannpurvis/iWeb/Purvis%20Brothers%20Bees.com/Home.html and look under References heading Sincerely, Bob Harrison **************************************************************************** ****** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * **************************************************************************** ******* -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:28:08 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: SSDD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quite a choice here... One can buy into Dan Purvis' view of CCD, or one can read the ongoing updates and reports of the team actually working to identify the tangible causes. One can buy into Dan's dismissal of the entire concept of government-sponsored agricultural research, or one can realize that if not for the same research, Dan would not have the skills and techniques he used to get into the queen business, much of it being a direct result of such research. I'll be interested to see if any of Dan's speculation dovetails with the actual findings of the CCD team, but I think it is clear that the overt symptoms (queen present, significant brood, but not enough workers to even tend the brood) tend to refute any claim that CCD is merely "more of the same". I've certainly never seen a hive dwindle in the specific manner cited as symptomatic of CCD, and neither has anyone else I've asked, so I'd call the problem "new" and "unusual". Apparently, I am not alone in this view, given the large number of people who dropped what they were doing to focus on this problem. In a related matter, the House Agriculture Committee will hold a press conference call on March 8, 2006, at 2pm EST to discuss the introduction of legislation to clarify that livestock manure is not classified as a hazardous waste under CERCLA, otherwise known as the "Superfund Law." (Call-in number: 1-866-909-2663, Meeting ID: 6272115) I think that it is reassuring to know that manure is not dangerous. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:25:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Don Cole Subject: Re: the existence of the honeybee DL, or not... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron wrote, "I for one have had enough.", and '' Stop posting about it." Aaron, I disagree with your notion that the DL controversy has no impact on beekeeping. Von Frisch credited Aristotle for the first published account of honey bee recruitment to a food source. Before bee keepers managed their bees in clay pots and skeps, the honey hunters had theories and superstitions of their own . My point is that the foraging behavior of honey bees is a very important subject and will be continually researched. As for the ''case closed parties'', the DL hypothesis has been the ruling theory, "case closed". The challenges to the DL hypothesis, such as the odor search hypothesis, constitute a ''case open'' position. I find the subject endlessly fascinating. Don Cole San Marcos Farms Honey Co.


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:00:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: the existence of the honeybee DL, or not... Comments: To: Don Cole Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:25:20 EST, Don Cole wrote: > the DL hypothesis has been the ruling theory, "case closed". Actually, people like Tom Seeley are still studying it and modifying it as needed. He has found not only do bees communicate about potential nest sites, the "vote" on them. see: "Group Decision Making in Honey Bee Swarms: When 10,000 bees go house hunting, how do they cooperatively choose their new nesting site?" by Thomas D. Seeley, P. Kirk Visscher, Kevin M. Passino quote: "the quorum-sensing method of aggregating the bees' information allows diversity and independence of opinion to thrive, but only long enough to ensure that a decision error is improbable. These considerations illustrate how the study of group decision making by honey bees might help human groups achieve collective intelligence and thus avoid collective folly. Good group decisions, the bees show us, can be fostered by endowing a group with three key habits: structuring each deliberation as an open competition of ideas, promoting diversity of knowledge and independence of opinions among a group's members and aggregating the opinions in a way that meets time constraints yet wisely exploits the breadth of knowledge within the group." *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:05:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: South American Honey crop Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just to add a question onto Peters, Why has the price dropped to quickly? Where has all the honey come from? Seems like the market is reacting to a big South American crop, yet we are hearing otherwise,.? It was just around Christmas, I was reading about China's lower crop production and increased domestic consumption. Honey followed suit. I believe the US held lower inventories, and Canada, well, we are just a small guy playing in a big market, hardly ever make influence on the market. So whats going on? Sure would like to know where that promise of a 1$ Canadian went! *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:06:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: SSDD Comments: To: bee-quick@BEE-QUICK.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Fischer wrote: >In a related matter, the House Agriculture Committee will hold a >press conference call on March 8, 2006, at 2pm EST to discuss the >introduction of legislation to clarify that livestock manure is not >classified as a hazardous waste under CERCLA, otherwise known as the >"Superfund Law." I worked for 2 years at Cornell's Waste Management Institute and their main issue at the time was the spreading of sewage and/or manure on farm fields. Human sewage is very bad stuff, and animal manure is not much better considering all the antibiotics and mineral supplements that are fed to animals and wind up in the manure. I wouldn't want it my backyard -- or next door, which is a vacant pasture -- upstream from my well. pb *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:19:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: SSDD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Some beekeepers find it disappointing that CCD is getting over the top visibility when the underlying problems in the industry are not being addressed. Why not spend the money and resources to tackle the mite/chemical input/virus cycle affecting probably 90% of the beekeepers in the USA? For me CCD is a gas bag of misdirected concern when we have the myriad of problems associated with mites, contaminated comb and viruses etc that could be at least put on a path of sustainability with a nationawide push of government/academic and industry resources.. Dann's message could be implied to read lets focus on the cores issues and not get sidetracked in the weeds over trivial issues. I would concede that there may be a historical record of disappearing bees. So what. How big of a problem is that compared to the hole we are in with mites etc? I felt the exchange on his web page clearly illustrated the lack of understanding some beekeepers have of the state of honey bee heatlh in the USA. My sense is that the beekeeper he conversed with represents the typical migratory beekeeper. That's a scary thought. I just returned from a trip to CA where I met several beekeepers and queen producers. While I found no evidence of CCD I found plenty of Same Stuff Different Day (SSDD) mentaliity. My own opinion is the Fall of 2005 mite crash losses in the USA far outweighs the tiny number of colonies claimed to be afflicted with CCD. The bottom line is this media circus on CCD may do more harm then good by misdirecting the attention from the real core issues. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:38:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Kraus Subject: Re: CCD on Colbert, and now The Onion, too! In-Reply-To: <509408.46775.qm@web54313.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://tinyurl.com/2mvmbx --- Erin Martin wrote: > Anyone else see this? Stephen Colbert mentioned > the > bee die-off and suggested bee hoarding for profit. > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > It's here! Your new message! > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > > *********************************************************************************** > * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: > * > * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm > * > *********************************************************************************** > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:31:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T'N'T Apiaries Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Irwin, you said: > but made > us very inefficent.Wintering costs more than package bees. I was with you up to here, but this is where the train went off the tracks for me. I was just going to let it slide, but there are always new readers on Bee-L and we haven't kicked this can around for a while. Aaron is no doubt "thinking" DL and Canada/US Border Closure in the same month, spring can't come soon enough. Anyways, since there is as much chance of agreement here and significantly less relevance than the debate over whether bees have big noses or are just good on their feet, lets you and I just strongly disagree and refer people to the archives. The list has been down this road more than a couple of times, and both camps are pretty entrenched. David Tharle Ardmore, AB *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 16:19:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: SSDD Comments: To: Brian Fredericksen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: >My own opinion is the Fall of 2005 mite crash losses in the USA far outweighs the tiny number of colonies claimed to be afflicted with CCD. I think I would wait until we have some good reliable numbers before declaring them to be tiny. Here in the Northeast USA the bees are shut in and we won't know if we have a problem until April. Apparently some have it and some don't, about all I would say for now. pb *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 23:41:37 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: beekeeping "The ugly stepchild of agriculture" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim I really do not know how to reply to your last response. Whilst I - and many others I am sure - appreciate your acerbic wit, I am struggling to find any logic in your comments. > It is easy for someone far removed from the practical work being > done to demur from speculating about the cause(s) of the die-offs. Perhaps the distance allows for a more reasoned approach, rather than the intemperate language used by those directly affected? > Statements from those directly involved in trying to find the root > causes that "refrained from speculation" in a similar manner would > be viewed as "stonewalling the press". No. What is needed is a calm statement of the facts, e.g. 'we believe that we have a serious problem, we do not know the reason at this stage but we are doing everything possible to establish the facts and expect to be able to give a further update xxxxxxxx'. You could add that there are problems with funding necessary research if appropriate and point out the possible consequences for crop pollination if an answer is not found quickly. > she brought up the specter of >>>CROP FAILURES<<< as a direct result of > the > colony losses. Is that not true? IF there is a serious problem and there are not enough colonies to pollinate economically important crops then there will be crop failures. It is the message that I have been hearing from a distance of several thousand miles. Clearly it has also reached Ceri. > Talk about an over-the-top scare-headline, blown-out-of-proportion, > sensational over-reaction! I am sure that you do not even convince yourself. > No one has even speculated that CCD might result in any crop failures. > If someone in a position of responsibility like Jerry Hayes had used > the phrase "crop failure", several different commodity futures markets > might have taken a brief nosedive, and the Florida State Department of > Agriculture would have likely be forced to fire him for having made > such irresponsible comments to the press. Let me draw you attention once again to the article in the St Peterburg Times: 'Not only are the livelihoods of beekeepers endangered, Hayes said, but so is the estimated one-third of the nation's food supply that depends upon honeybee pollination - apples, almonds, melons, blueberries and some varieties of citrus, including grapefruit.' Have you warned Jerry that he is about to be fired? > Perhaps the Honey Queen's intention was to express concern over honey > crops rather than pollinated crops... No - she clearly said: 'even more important than the honey is the role of bees in pollination and if those crops are going to fail then it's going to be a big problem...' > So, I'd give Dave and Jerry higher marks at "dealing with the > press" than I'd give Ceri Collingbourne, as they did not make > any statements speculating about widespread famine and the end > of civilization as we know it. Now who has gone over the top? > ...management practices are clearly not something that can be blamed. Many would not agree that this is at all clear. Even if we were to accept that there are pathogens involved (and that is not yet clear either), we all know that there is a strong link between many diseases and management practices. > So, it is something new. You could be in a minority there. But if you are right, then it is indeed something not only new - but absolutely terrifying in terms of the speed with which it has spread across the US. I am afraid to blink in case I miss seeing it pass over the UK! > Anyone want to give odds that we will end up > seeing this called "Bee AIDS" in the press, We have - thanks to beekeepers using those words. Q.E.D. yet again? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:52:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 21:54:21 -0500, Irwin Harlton wrote: > When the US border closed in 1986 to package bees things changed, but we >canucks have every disease and pest the US beekeepers have, but we don't >have any African bees, big deal,the border closure bought us time but made >us very inefficent.Wintering costs more than package bees. > so you have lots of small hive beetles in Canada ? Eh? and TM resistant AFB? I live in central Mn and the cost to winter a hive is about $7 in materials, fuel & labor to wrap and about $12 to feed for corn syrup, labor and fuel (assuming an employee cost of $15/hr). Packages cost $44.00 delivered from California. I have never understood the big deal about wintering. Typically with a 20% loss over winter, 50% or more of the hives can be split out in spring. Assuming you buy a $15 queen and weather is good you have 2 producing hives. Help me with the math please..... *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 19:54:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Joel_Klose?= Subject: Re: SSDD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I read Dan Purvis's letter with interest. In it he presumes a great deal but on what he bases his presumptions we can't say. He says to follow the successful beekeepers who are thriving and in the same breath speaks about working toward the goal of 50% losses or depopulation. He indicates it's the same stuff different day yet many experianced beekeepers AND researchers with decades of success are scratching their heads over the unique symptoms. He further mentions distributing good mites and that a "few" beekeepers are surviving after stating this really is no big deal and losses aren't that great. Quite a contridiction since most beekeepers are still surviving and both his points can't logically be accurate. Lastly we hear discussion about research money being given to those who are testing (that would be him right?) and an advertisement for his queens. Then here on Bee-l we see repeated the implication research money should go to Purvis since he's already set up. I would propose Mr. Purvis could be dead right and should apply for research grants the same as everyone else or perhaps we could just let anyone with a strong opinion, not necessarily supported by fact or research, have the money and hope for the best. I think too often research comes too late but think it would be a bigger mistake to give money to private business with special interest and not expect tainted results. It's way too early to be jumping to these conclusions. Many of these successful beekeepers he speaks of may yet succumb to whatever is causing this affliction. I don't doubt the factors he mention are contributing to the losses but they don't necessisarily add up to his sum. We have a group of beekeepers and researchers agreeing there is something different going on here. Anytime beekeepers and researchers agree we should stop and pay close attention. I would propose nothing is the same in beekeeping in the 2 decades since I started and for what I know of before. Many new afflictions have come down the pike and some have combined to give us new maladies such as PMS. I'm certain more are to come, this may or may not be one but more time and information is needed to draw an accurate conclusion. I concluded the letter was an add saying "Buy our Queens", I hope that's all it was meant to be. Best Regards, Joel *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 21:33:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Tiny Losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> Brian, can you provide the numbers of colonies lost in the Fall of 2005 mite crashes in the USA? If you are going to list this as the benchmark, what is the number? Also, it appears that you live in Minnesota. I suggest that you talk to some of the large migratory beekeepers in your state who have reported CCD, some of whom we have investigated/sampled. I don't think they'd consider the losses as tiny. Jerry


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 21:39:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: >I live in central Mn and the cost to winter a hive is about $7 in materials, fuel & labor to wrap and about $12 to feed for corn syrup, labor and fuel (assuming an employee cost of $15/hr). Packages cost $44.00 delivered from California. You neglected to mention the 50-80 pounds of honey that you could harvest if you didn't try to winter-over the colony. But as someone else said, this topic has been debated for decades and it all depends on the value of the variables (price of honey, packages, labor, etc.) pb *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 22:04:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: SSDD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 19:54:24 -0500, Joel Klose wrote: >I read Dan Purvis's letter with interest. In it he presumes a great deal >but on what he bases his presumptions we can't say. He says to follow the >successful beekeepers who are thriving and in the same breath speaks about >working toward the goal of 50% losses or depopulation. please read all of the info on his reference page and even call him to talk. there is much more to his story then you can get from his letter. his apporach to selecting breeder stock is unique and extremely well thought out. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ***********************************************************************************