From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:52:44 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.2 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A9E48293 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFhrpM016524 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:16 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0703B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 217380 Lines: 4753 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 23:12:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Tiny Losses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 21:33:58 EST, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: ><USA far outweighs the tiny number of colonies claimed to be afflicted with >CCD>> > >Brian, can you provide the numbers of colonies lost in the Fall of 2005 mite >crashes in the USA? If you are going to list this as the benchmark, what is >the number? > I don't have access to numbers just my own gut feel of talking and reading and absorbing what I see and hear. The fall I should be refering to also is 2004. By Jan 1st of 2005 you could not book a queen or package anywhere in the USA. Most of my friends and contacts were scrambling for bees in December already. Here we are in early March 2007 and I don't see any rush for bees going on. The queen producers I have frequent contact with had room to book yet a couple of weeks ago. Demand seems average. I visited some producers in CA last week and no one was breaking a sweat. So comparing bee availability and backroom chat with others in the business I'm not hearing the same magnitude of losses of Fall/Winter 04/05 to our current 06/07 situation in fact I'd say its no where close. Anyone having trouble finding bees this spring? am I missing something? does the situation look way different somewhere else? Please tell us as I have not heard of any news here on Bee-L or anywhere else. I would not trivalize anyones loss. I'm sure we have some here in Mn...we always do...maybe they are staying quiet. Most of the big boys are not here anyhow so I guess some bees really are missing from Minnesota eh? The reason for the loss though is the point in question as we wait with bated breath for the "answer is....." *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 23:19:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Irwin_Harlton?= Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredericksen wrote "so you have lots of small hive beetles in Canada ? Eh? and TM resistant AFB? " We do have TM resistant AFB, it's not rampant but it isn't going away either. I believe one small hive beetle was found in 2005 in manitoba, in a bee yard in which Australian packages had been installed the year before, Anyone please correct me if I am wrong.Previously several years back an infestation of beetles was found at a wax rendering plant,a load of wax had come from one of the southern states, all the beetles were eradicated but not before infesting one of the local beekeepers hives. As it has been stated before the wintering verses package bees is whipping a dead horse.The pros and cons have been well debated. Eh? Perhaps it is a good thing that border is closed ( thought I would never say that) we would only have more colonies and more honey to sell.Did not agree with the way CFIA did it or their logic behind it.Africanized bees have yet to be proven as a threat to the Canadian honey industry and that was 20 years ago.I guess we all better get used to more government involement in our buissness and personal lives,after 9/11 the world definetly changed. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 22:19:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chrissy Shaw Subject: Re: SSDD In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Were this any other situation i can not imagine a scene of these supposed crimes of colony losses not yielding the weapon (smoking gun). There is no consistant toxicology, vauge mention to remove old combs, yet there is no factor, or cause found. Now there is mention of money, a per colony cost to help out finding what so far has shown to be a ghost killer that leaves no one poison. I think it is time to examine the motives at this point. At least with bird-flu they have an influenza, we are being told there is a disease, or poison that is so stealth it leaves no clues one event to the next. Either the investigation is missing the obvious, or this is an improperly identified random event with no common factors outside of the victims. Mr. Purvis may not have it all together, but it agree it is time to look at what we have been told thus far. Chrissy Shaw > > > *********************************************************************************** > * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * > * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * > *********************************************************************************** A fraction of a degree in error of movement compounds per-unit in spacetime and all true courses are determined by degree of error and its correction. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:10:07 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Tiny Losses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I visited some producers in CA last week and no one was breaking a sweat. Does this mean the almond groves have received sufficient bees? Waldemar *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:09:46 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: CCD and Bee Losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I suspect that the main difference between CCD and the fall of 2004 is timing, economics. In 2004, overall low numbers of bees combined with a lack of communication between the growers and beekeepers created a shortfall. At the then going price of $35-38 per colony, beekeepers weren't shipping bees from the east coast to CA. When the price tripled, bees started coming to CA from far away. Last year, Australian bees were added to the mix. So last year and this, there were many more colonies in CA, buffered the need. CCD has been playing out all year. Those who had the problem in spring, early summer, maybe even early fall managed to recover. Just before Christmas, there was a projected surplus of bees in CA. Best that I can tell, almonds were adequately covered. As the Feb 14 deadline neared, there was some scrambling, more planes out of Australia, calls to east coast, Bob H. admitted on this forum that he sent last minute bees. I'll be out in a few days to look. Conversations with folks in CA -- no severe shortage, but no surplus either. There have been some continued collapses in the groves; beekeepers are working hard to fill in to make up any shortages. Overall, in terms of the 2.6 million colonies in the U.S., the losses, while moderate to severe for many beekeepers, putting at least two large operations out of business (at least that's what these beekeepers said to us), are still a small portion of the total number of beekeeping operations in the country. As a clarification, the general (state shaded in maps) that we produce are intended as a history of the CCD, where its been, is at, hopefully where its going. Just because a state is listed does not mean that there is any widespread or current CCD outbreak in that state. The maps cover the whole of the U.S. and a 12 month period. Shaded states are places this has been observed since last spring. The maps are part of our attempt to determine whether this is contagious, and whether factors such as clmiate trigger collapses. Jerry


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:49:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 7-Mar-07, at 6:52 PM, Brian Fredericksen wrote: >> When the US border closed in 1986 to package bees things changed, >> but we >> canucks have every disease and pest the US beekeepers have, but we >> don't >> have any African bees, big deal,the border closure bought us time >> but made >> us very inefficent.Wintering costs more than package bees. >> >> > > > so you have lots of small hive beetles in Canada ? Eh? and TM > resistant AFB? > Hi Brian and all Not lots of small hive beetles, but, small hive beetles arrived in Alberta and Manitoba in packages from Oz. TM resistant AFB in Alberta from ????? in empty drums???. Is the "world's longest 'unprotected' border" the only defense left? Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W(Hmmm south of the 49th and Mn, but still the Great White North -25C this week but climbing soon) *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:23:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD and Bee Losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jerry & All, I agree with Jerry's assesment of the California issue. The die offs are real and continuing and need our attention. We need every beekeeper to be successful! If not a new problem then we still need to help beekeepers to keep hives alive. If a new problem we need to address the new problem but still need to help beekeepers solve the old problems. Varroa remains a big problem for many operations. Soon I will have fought varroa for 20 years! I have lost half my hives twice( documented in archives). Control varroa and virus problems seem to go away. Randy Oliver has an excellent article in the March issue of ABJ on testing and managing varroa. The beekeepers which seem to be not seeing CCD are keeping a tight control on varroa from my observations. I am not saying CCD is totally related to varroa and virus but only pointing out what I am hearing from those which are not seeing CCD. My personal observation includes queens not lasting over two seasons and bees not as prolific as in the old days. I applaud those which have been looking into the die offs ( as do all beekeepers) but a drop in the bucket as far as the help the industry needs. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:42:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Irwin_Harlton?= Subject: Price of honey is about to rise Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >From a good friend....... who knows..... Perhaps there is finally some good news that we heard about last night. USDA estimates that there are 30 million pounds of white honey left in the US currently, and estimates put Canada at around 25 million pounds. This being said, European retail prices for honey have just increased by 25%. With only 55 million pounds of white honey left in the world, the prices should be up drastically very soon. The next “white honey” crop will not be available for almost half a year. This means that there is roughly 20% of the honey that was used in the first 6 months left available. Should help prices sooner than we thought! What about the Argentina crop Yes, Argentina does produce some white honey, as does China and Austrailia and so on. Primarily speaking, North America produces the majority of the worlds white honey as Argentina produces a lot that is ELA or Amber. Many beekeepers that we have talked to from Argentina are saying they have been getting 80mm honey this year. By comparison, I don’t know if this is normal, darker, or lighter than usual. irwin *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:02:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Berseth Subject: The Colors A Bee Sees In-Reply-To: <8D36A36F-EDBA-4F78-8C34-21B93DF58DEC@interlog.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Are there colors that bees would see more acutely than humans which I could use to decorate a hive body with? Can bees differentiate between kinds of white? Are there colors that bees can distinguish that our eyes cannot? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:12:26 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Subject: Re: Princing and .65/lb???? In-Reply-To: Irwin wrote > Sorry I might have confused you Snip/ > The facts are represented as clearly as possible, I live in > Canada, it was a canadian offer, no buyer in canada buys in another > currancy. > Perhaps things are done different in New Zealand, care to comment? And then a day later wrote: > That .65 price was in Canadian funds as far as I know The fact is that honey is usually traded around the World in US $. Many Canadians we talk with sell directly to the US and lapse between Can cents/lb and US cent/lb. On an internaltional malling list it is never clear unless stated, that a currency is other than US$ for pricing. At least two other respondents to the post were unclear of the currency. The one currency that is vital in marketing is information. Clear, factual and corroborated information. Smart operators run rings around you only where they are ahead of the game. FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) is the tool of the market disrupter. Accurate information is the weapon against FUD. Supply and demand ultimately is the determining factor for price setting. Facts like : Argentina has increased from 1.4 million hives to 4 million hives since 1990. China and Argentina supply 57% of all World trade in honey. The EU takes half of all World trade in honey. We are in a global market where all countries are affected by all other countries, their crops, the exports and their imports. Accurate, timely and clear information is one of the few tools that the producer has at his disposal. Regards, Peter Bray_________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:05:19 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: SSDD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Were this any other situation i can not imagine a scene of these supposed > crimes of colony losses not yielding the weapon (smoking gun). Might I mention that the "crime scenes" are still being investigated, and that the "CSI guys" are not yet done their work? And while we are on this metaphor, who sez we have only a single "smoking gun"? I, for one, don't see gunmen behind EVERY grassy knoll, but neither am I going to assume a "lone gunman". > There is no consistant toxicology, Give them time to sort it all out. > vauge mention to remove old combs, This is a long-standing advisory. Anyone with even half a clue has been doing this for more than a decade now. I have not heard any such suggestion mentioned as a way to prevent/defeat CCD, but it certainly can't hurt, now can it? > yet there is no factor, or cause found. Again, give them time to sort it all out. > I think it is time to examine the motives at this point. At least with > bird-flu they have an influenza, we are being told there is a disease, > or poison that is so stealth it leaves no clues one event to the next. I think it would be more accurate to say that there is an over-abundance of "clues", and slogging through them all is what is taking so long. > Either the investigation is missing the obvious, or this is an > improperly identified random event with no common factors outside > of the victims. Another possibility is that the investigation is simply taking longer than you'd like, and your impatience is showing. > Mr. Purvis may not have it all together, but i agree it is time > to look at what we have been told thus far. Well, what has been said to date has been admitted to be highly speculative and preliminary in nature, so the odds of any analysis of these very tentative statements yielding anything useful is about as likely as the chances of a dog urinating a faithful copy of the Mona Lisa into a snow bank. :) *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:06:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: The bees are just gone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FROM: Bee-fuddling by John S. Adams http://www.missoulanews.com/ EXCERPTS: For the last 35 years Lance Sundberg has devoted his life to honeybees. The Columbus resident started his first beehive in 1972 as an eighth-grade 4-H project. The next year he added a second set of bee boxes and spilt the hive into two. The year after that he added two more hives—also known as colonies—and again doubled his bees and increased his honey production. Over the course of the ensuing decade Sundberg added more and more colonies to his thriving apiary (the technical name for a bee yard), and by 1983 his passion for bees had outgrown his childhood hobby and become his livelihood. Now with 5,600 honeybee colonies of his own, plus an additional 2,000 hives leased from beekeepers in Washington and Nebraska, Sundberg runs one of Montana's largest beekeeping businesses. Every year in late October he packs his bees, loads them onto trucks and ships them to California where, from February through spring they go to work pollinating the state's almond and fruit crops. For five to six months out of the year Sundberg lives on the road, traveling from California's Central Valley almond orchards north to Washington's apple orchards. He usually returns home to Columbus, a small mining town west of Billings, for no more than 10 days during the season. "We're kind of like gypsies in a way," says Sundberg in his easy Central Montana drawl. "We pack our houses and all of our trucks and machinery and all our bees and migrate around the country." But now a mysterious ailment afflicting the nation's honeybees is threatening Sundberg's livelihood. Across America, millions of honeybees are abandoning their hives and flying off to die, leaving beekeepers like Sundberg facing potential ruin. In at least 24 states beekeepers are reporting inexplicable disappearances of entire colonies. Some beekeepers have lost more than 80 percent of their colonies already this year, the bees simply disappearing from hives without a trace. The malady, which researchers have dubbed "Colony Collapse Disorder" (CCD), is not only threatening the livelihoods of beekeepers, but could have serious impacts on the production of the country's fruit and nut crops, many of which depend on honeybees to pollinate their blossoms. And so far no one has a clue as to what's causing this troublesome and mysterious disorder. "I'm in the middle of it," Sundberg says from California, where he's been unloading pallets of beehives. "It's a real volatile business right now, and we don't understand the cause of some of the deaths of our colonies." Sundberg says of the 21 semitrailer-loads of bees he hauled to California, five truckloads worth have died. In each case, the bees have up and left the boxes without leaving any trace. "The bees are just gone," he says. "The unusual thing about this phenomenon is that you don't know where the bees went. You know they were there last week, and you go and look the next week and they've just disappeared." Sundberg is one of the hundreds of migratory beekeepers across the country who each year load millions of bees onto semitrailers for contracted pollination work. In Montana there are about 50 such beekeepers, and Sundberg's Sunshine Apiaries is one of the largest with 64 contracts with various California almond growers. "Almonds are the biggest money game in the business," Sundberg says. The high demand for bees, coupled with increased death-loss ratios of colonies due to parasitic mites, hive beetles, wax moths and now the mysterious CCD, has led to skyrocketing costs to rent pollinating bee colonies. In 2004 Sundberg rented boxes of bees to almond growers for about $53 per colony for the season. The last two years the price has been closer to $140 per colony. But despite nearly tripling his rental fees in the last three years, Sundberg says for the first time in his career he is more than $100,000 in the hole. Due to the heavy CCD losses he sustained last month, Sundberg says he spent about $120,000 importing bees from overseas just to maintain his contracts with growers. That's money he's never had to spend in years past and it's hitting his bottom line. "That will turn around when the growers start making payments to me for my pollination services, but I've never had to buy supplemental bees in that kind of volume," Sundberg says. "I've never had these kinds of death-loss ratios before." During a normal year, once Sundberg's bees are in the orchards, he returns home to Columbus for 10 days or so while his bees do the work. But this year that's not going to happen. Instead he'll stick around and monitor the boxes for signs the colony is dwindling because he knows if his bees can't fulfill his end of 64 contracts, there are plenty of competitors waiting to pick up his work. It's an unsettling time for beekeepers like Sundberg. Because the almond industry isn't acknowledging the problem, and many beekeepers don't want to talk about it, researchers are scrambling to solve one of the greatest mysteries the beekeeping industry has ever seen. And every time Sundberg goes into the orchards and opens a box of bees he's not sure what he's going to find. "If you can imagine raising horses or cattle…" Sundberg says, "and a third of everything you raised died on you before you ever get to do anything with it, but you still entail the costs of raising it. That's daunting." That's why Sundberg, along with thousands of beekeepers and agricultural producers throughout the country, is counting on Bromenshenk and his interstate team of researchers to find a cause -- and a cure -- before CCD turns the collapse of individual colonies into the collapse of an entire industry. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:34:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: South American Honey crop Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Vuisited my chem/fert dealer today. Found out that the price of Nitrogen has almost doubled in price from 320 $canadian/tonne in November to 600$canadiac/tonne priced tommorrow. Reason being,? Big acres of corn taking alot of crops out of rotation, needing more N in US. Compounded with ofshore fertilizer companies mainly in Russia, holding back fertilizer for domestic usage. We are starting to see large crop producing countries invest into the production of thier land, by finally providing farmers with credit to buy the inputs. This will mean big crops grown world wide in the near future, I imagine honey production will follow suit, *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:45:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: The Colors A Bee Sees In-Reply-To: <602663.48195.qm@web33211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bees, like many (all?) insects, can't see red but do see into the ultraviolet spectrum. So yes, bees can see different colors where you see only white. If you look at many "plain white" flowers in the near-ultraviolet spectrum, you will actually see that the flower petals are colored like targets - the colors form stars and lines to direct the pollinators to the nectar. I remember reading an excellent article some years back that included pictures of flowers as seen by humans and as they would be seen by the bee. They were stunning. I think it was in Scientific American. Mike Rossander --------------------------------- Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 16:44:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: Tiny Losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brain wrote, > So comparing bee availability and backroom chat with others in the > business I'm not hearing the > same magnitude of losses of Fall/Winter 04/05 to our current 06/07 > situation in fact I'd say its no > where close. Brain, I could not agree more. There seems to be hero's here, crossing the globe to find the lost silver bullet . Taking in account, the drought, mites and nosema. I see no change in beekeepers I've talk with. Some that have not done the prep work, have lost 50-70 percent. That's just about the right percentage if you neglect them. I hope we don't sound the cry of wolf to loud, we may need some help in the further. Keith Calif *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 05:02:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Newspaper Profiles Canadian Apitherapist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Newspaper Profiles Canadian Apitherapist A Beehive of Activity By Katrina Simmons, The Hamilton Spectator (Canada), 3/8/2007 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/03/newspaper-profiles-canadian.html Honey has been around since the beginning of time. The pharoahs of Egypt were buried with honey, says beekeeper and apitherapist Annie vanAlten of Dutchman's Gold honey and maple products, and this powerhouse of nutrition is even mentioned numerous times in the Bible… In recent years, vanAlten has turned her attention to the health benefits of other products of the hive, and added Annie's Apitherapy to the Dutchman's Gold label. She started attending international workshops and congresses to learn and lecture about the therapeutic use of bee products (apitherapy). "Royal jelly is B-complex and a pick-me-upper," she instructs. "Propolis is a natural antibiotic, and bee pollen boosts the immune system, is an energy booster and a multivitamin." Even honey itself is an anti-bacterial, she says, that can be used as a wound dressing... *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:09:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dick_Allen?= Subject: Re: The Colors A Bee Sees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here are some remarks from the archives: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0301C&L=BEE-L&P=R2605&I=-3 Regards, Dick Allen *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 09:44:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Wintering costs more than package bees It would be real interesting to see, if the boarder did open to packages, again as once before, how many beekeeper remained to overwinter their hives as they do now. Beekeepers have spent alot of time and money, and have acquired a pile of expertise with wintering bees indoors. I wonder if all that would be dropped when the boarded opens? Somehow I doubts it very much. What I could see is beekeepers using both in combination, wintering and importing packages, to help maintain wintering losses to varroa and other factors. Sure bring the costs down, There would be less of a reliance on making up losses from the survivors, taking alot of pressure off they heart of the operation. You can argue $ back and fourth, creditably, yes. But routine sometimes takes the boat. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:28:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Cell Punching Frame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All In my message of 12/14/06 10:09 AM I mentioned a frame that uses 'Terry tool clips' to hold cell punches. I apologise for the delay in completion (recent illness), but the information is now available at... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/roger_punch_frame.html -- Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:18:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Bee-Fuddling http://www.missoulanews.com/News/News.asp?no=6345 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All The rather long Missoulian article provides some good information about Montana and CCD, as well as beekeeper comments. And, before anyone jumps on captions, article comments, remember, newspaper editors always look for something to pull in readers. Over the top comments are often those of the editor, not the reporter, researcher, beekeeper, etc. If you doubt this, just give an interview and see what comes out the other end. Follow an article on Google news from a press service like AP press, and you will see that the same story gets cut, chopped, re-arranged, and re-titled at will - and the initial story producer has no say. Reality check. Jerry


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:45:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: Price of honey is about to rise Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Argentina produces a lot that is ELA or Amber. Many beekeepers that we have talked to from Argentina are saying they have been getting 80mm honey this year. Yes, ELA and Amber is typically collected from the Argentine crops, reason being primarily Soybean crops grown there. Soybeans being the crop of choice because it requires so little input to grow the crop, and prices well in the world. But 80mm seem a little dark to be collected from soybean. Can you get 80mm from soybean? Perhaps the 80mm is being influenced more from the wild flowers, than collected from crop due to the dry conditions? *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:37:11 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Montana Stories on Colony Collapse Disorder Comments: To: rehmbees@3rivers.net, troyfore@abfnet.org, kim@beeculture.com, Tommy.Shedd@us.army.mil Comments: cc: aaron.lapointe@nvl.army.mil, ERosen@ida.org, dcummings@cvinc.ws, pdenke@mt.gov, pernals@agr.gc.ca, rpalmer@iastate.edu, ray@ohbees.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit More on-line articles that may be of interest: 1) Our use of bees to detect poisons -- article has an error -- this work was sponsored by an SBIR Phase II award to Bee Alert Technology, Inc. from the U.S. Army's Center for Environmental Health Research at Ft Detrick, MD. They've also provided us the opportunity to apply some of this technology to investigating the CCD. The Night Vision lab funds our bees and landmine work through the University. The Kaimin will publish a correction on Tuesday. _http://www.montanakaimin.com/index.php/news/news_article/prof_finds_promise_i n_poison_detecting_bees/_ (http://www.montanakaimin.com/index.php/news/news_article/prof_finds_promise_in_poison_detecting_bees/) 2) Another Montana-based story on CCD _http://www.montanakaimin.com/index.php/news/news_article/no_answers_in_case_o f_missing_bees/_ (http://www.montanakaimin.com/index.php/news/news_article/no_answers_in_case_of_missing_bees/) 3) The earlier, but longer story on CCD _http://www.missoulanews.com/News/News.asp?no=6345_ (http://www.missoulanews.com/News/News.asp?no=6345) Thanks Jerry J.J. Bromenshenk The Billings Gazette should have a major article this weekend.


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:27:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: The Colors A Bee Sees Comments: To: "H. Higgenbotham" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To see some colorful hives got to: http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst [please note: this being an active website, it will change from time to time] *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 22:33:44 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: South American Honey crop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This will mean big crops grown world wide in the near future, > > I imagine honey production will follow suit, Dear Ian I suspect not. The buoyant market for corn is due to the demand for crops for biofuel. I don't see much impact on the beekeeping industry from that, although here in Europe the requirement for biodiesel may keep one of our main honey crops -oilseed rape or canola - high on the list of rotational crops. Gavin. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 19:49:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: South American Honey crop Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes I realize the bio fuel market buying up corn, taking nectar producing crops out of production in the US I am talking about foreign crop production. Seeing higher commodities prices, mainly due to the world bio fuel industry, US just beginning their program, those farmers will start to invest into the land, and grow bigger crops. Russia has alot of potential, which they are starting to explore again. If we think Argentina grows alot of grains and oilseeds now, just wait until they start investing into the land. Its basically toss the seed and harvest the crop, no inputs, or very little. If the farmers start investing into the land, look out, we have no idea their potential for food production. And then comes the quality, and then they take all market share. we think 4 million hives is alot now,.. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 19:29:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: South American Honey crop In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian, See Bee-L archive http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0610C&L=BEE-L&P=R1917&I=-3 Peter *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 21:42:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: The bees are just gone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would note that these are just the same beekeepers in the news for the last 3-4 months. I have seen little new losses reported in any of these stories. Mr. Sundberg has been the topic of several news articles now. It would be hard to tell as a casual reader you would think wow this thing is huge and everywhere. Here's our local article contributing to the noise on CDD. http://www.startribune.com/357/story/1029875.html that really says absolutely nothing new. I expect more hyperbole in the coming months and years. Read the link I posted to see how the mysterious and the scary have taken over the reality that many beekeepers don't know what they are doing with mite treatments yet after more then a decade. But that would not make for the most interesting news story would it? Like the headlines could be "Beekeepers in Disorder on how to Care for Bees (after EPA approved strips that contaminate comb stop working)" or maybe "Bees Dying by the Hundreds as some Beekeepers stand by Clueless" (even with a copy of Randy Olivers latest mite article(s) in their back pocket). or my favorite: "Beekeepers move 60% of all Colonies In the USA into one Concentrated Area to Ensure Quick Disemenation of the New and Deadly Colony Collapse Disorder" *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:53:42 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: CCD, "Marie Celeste" Syndrome and Queen mating problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In following the lists' discussions on CCD from afar (Western Australia, = where there are no mites and no chems used in hives), it has been very = hard to get a true picture of the real magnitude of this problem, and = therefore difficult to make any useful input to the debate. But I will = try nontheless. There does seem to be a remarkable similarity between the symptoms of = CCD and those associated with "Marie Celeste Syndrome" in the UK (see = http://www.defra.gov.uk/hort/Bees/pdf/bees-meeting2005.pdf ). =20 Dave Cushman's website carries an extensive list of problems being = experienced in the UK with queen matings and drones health and fitness = as observed by Roger Patterson ( = http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/rogerpatterson.html ). He makes the point very clearly that these problems are abnormalities = that every beekeeper raising numbers of queens will observe over time, = and accept as par for the course. What appears to be happening now is = that their frequency is much increased, and that this change has = occurred in such a subtle manner over time, that even many well = experienced beekeepers have not appreciated the significance of the = change until it is pointed out to them. He also links these observations to "Marie Celeste Syndrome". Perhaps = these are also early symptoms of CCD, which many beekeepers so far = unnaffected by full blown CCD may recognise?=20 For what it is worth, I raise many queens both for my own use and for = sale, and have done for more years than I care to admit. I have never = seen queens or drones such as those pictured in the Roger Patterson link = except where they have hatched from cells that were physically damaged = by wax moths.=20 Also, another "usual suspect" in this debate has been the neonicotinoid = pesticides which are in widespread use here in Australia, and have been = for many years. Whilst I too view these with great suspicion because of = their great potential for sub lethal effects on our colonies, I = personally have yet to observe any problems that I can associate with = them. However, I do not work my bees on Canola crops. Beekeepers here = who do, always report major problems with uncontrollable 'swarming' and = subsequent problems with drone laying queens when those hives are = restocked. I have put swarming in paretheses because the description of = previously strong hives, full of honey with no bees left, sounds awfully = like the absconding observations in CCD! These beekeepers always blame = "Canola" and never question to my knowledge any chemical associations = with that crop. So, are experienced beekeepers here in Western Australia also seeing CCD = without having recognised it? Roger Patterson's observation that even = experienced queen rearers have accepted abnormal results for some time = without realizing that there has been a change, makes that a very real = possibility. My observations FWIW. Peter Detchon *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:23:50 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: South American Honey crop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Biofuels? Honey going cheap?! Just thinking out loud ... 4 million colonies in Argentina. Guessing at production: 50 kg/colony? Too high? Argentina's production maybe 200 million kg. Theoretical yield of ethanol 200*0.48 = 96 million kg Ethanol by volume 96/0.798 = 121.7 million litres bioethanol. (Just remembered that honey isn't pure sugar, so round this down to 91.2 million litres) Is this a lot? In 2004 Brazil produced 16.4 billion litres on 4.5% of their crop land. The country currently produces about 37% of their transportation fuel needs from sugarcane bioethanol. Brazil, if you're still with me, has 188 million people and Argentina 36 million. So Argentina should need 3.06 billion litres to get to the same self-sufficiency level as Brazil. Could they do it on honey alone? It seems as if they could already be 3% of the way there! (100*91.2/3064) Or 1% of the way to full self-sufficiency. So, is this the way forward for the industry internationally?! I'm kidding! Though it does make you think ... Gavin PS The back of the same envelope that generated the data above also suggested that the raw material (honey) cost for 1 litre of bioethanol would be $3.13 at a honey price of 65 cents per lb. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:49:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: The bees are just gone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Across the U.S., Keepers Say Their Bees Are AWOL" Story on the radio (Talk of the Nation's Science Friday) with Danny Weaver, May Berenbaum, etc. Listen at: http://tinyurl.com/37ytyf *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:32:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Painted hive fronts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Greetings Several people wrote to me about the colorful hive pictures. Thanks! Here is a link to some really pretty hive fronts: http://www.panjske-koncnice.si/page_2.html -- pb *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:01:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ted_Hancock?= Subject: Re: The bees are just gone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >FROM: >Bee-fuddling by John S. Adams >http://www.missoulanews.com/ >"We're kind of like gypsies in a way," says Sundberg in his easy >Central Montana drawl. "We pack our houses and all of our trucks and >machinery and all our bees and migrate around the country." By the irony of fate the farmers had rain when they needed sun, and sun when they needed rain. And by the irony of fate the bees exhibited the beekeepers behaviour. Don't you see? The gypsy bee is flying free, no home, no hive, just thinks of "me". Oh lordy what a travesty, that darned annoying gypsy bee, must be the cause of CCD! *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:35:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: South American Honey crop Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gavin, not quite following you, All I am saying, these countries arnt putting inputs into the land historically, until now, than means bigger crops for the future. Bigger crops means more potential for honey production, along with investment into higher yielding crops, and more diversity in crops. This will lead into having potential into producing whiter honeys as they start exploring into canola production aswell as soybean. All speculation, but, bottom line, they are buying a tremendous amount of fertilizer. Its the start. no speculation of them getting into the biofuel market, jsut feeding the already hungry food market. With the investment, they will produce higher quality products, then we are in trouble. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:48:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: South American Honey crop Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Not only do I see a potential for added income from pollination contracts if handled / developed in the correct manner - BUT: There is the potential for the honey market to be disrupted in the future as larger surface areas of nectar producing come into being. - Too much honey?? We might possibly be heading into that direction, there is alot of land out there undeveloped, and alot of people who could take the production off that land if just given the chance. The beekeepers will follow, no doubt about that. Lets just hope we can narrow our cost to compete with their productions. I agree, this might be were pollination comes into play. Many beekeepers in the US already rely pollination as a stape to thier existence, we have always had the ability to produce big crops to make the numbers work. Perhaps a more diversified income is down the pipe. BUT, I cant see farmers paying for pollination up here, any different than they dont already now. The benefit of pollination is so hard to measure to the farmer, they dont see that its the bees within the area providing them with the well pollinated crop. We already have more than enough bees in this are to cover all the pollination requirements needed. It would be nice to have an almond industry up here, that REQUIRES bees to produce a crop. Do you see the opening of the boarder a potential advantage to Canadian beekeepers in terms of pollination services we can provide California? Or do you perhaps see the advantage far outweighed by the easy migration of Small hive beetle and Americanized bee populations to establish? Not taking any sides, just asking for discussion, *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:30:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Irwin_Harlton?= Subject: bakery honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What is bakers blend The term was used on the Mid US Beekeepers Honey Producers Hot Line last fall, describing barrels seen in a packers warehouse. A friend tells me of receiving used drums from south america several years ago with the label on them stating the contents were Honey and corn syrup. Is THIS WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS BAKERS BLEND? Irwin *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:50:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: The bees are just gone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: >many beekeepers don't know what they are doing with mite treatments yet after more then a decade. But that would not make for the most interesting news story would it? I would be careful about making statements like this before the jury is in. People like Lance Sundberg are not newbies. Anyone who has accumulated more than 5000 colonies is certainly not someone who doesn't know what he's doing. Really, the last thing we need right now is a lot of beekeepers saying that the thing is a hoax. If it turns out to be a tempest in a teapot, so be it. On the other hand, those who think it's no big deal now may have to eat their words later. I suggest a wait and see approach, at least until the spring inspections are over. pb *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:00:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: bakery honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What is bakers blend I have always used the term baker's honey to mean darker honey. I sell it to people who what to use in cookies and the like. Bakers prefer this because is has more taste and the eater can tell there is honey in the product. Because honey makes it special, they want it to me more noticeable than the lighter, milder honey is. Now, the "blend" part would make me worry. Unless it means a blend of honeys including darker honey... Many recipes call for honey and other sweeteners. I guess that is a blend. But I would be unhappy to have the honey and other sweeteners premixed. Come to think of it, I have some dark honey that would be great in oatmeal cookies. Thanks for the thought. Larry Krengel *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 19:07:46 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: South American Honey crop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ian > Gavin, not quite following you, Don't worry about it - I was just indulging in wild speculation on a quiet Saturday morning and not making any serious comment on the state of the beekeeping industry. It was interesting to think that bees were harvesting an energy crop on such a scale that that it could conceivably make a contribution to man's need for energy as well as food. Technically, but not economically unless the cost of energy changes enormously. I'm not someone who thinks a lot about markets, but I do see the points you are making. It is far from clear-cut of course, as you suggest. Highly intensive agriculture can be bad for pollinators, and it isn't clear that a random sample of crops will yield more honey than the forest which they replace. But, if nectar-yielding crops form a significant part of newly-intensive agriculture, honey production would rise as you say. Looking further ahead and returning to the biofuel question, such crops will likely become an established part of agriculture. However, most observers seem to think that new fermentation technologies will mean that crop and forestry wastes can be converted into bioethanol too, changing the economics fundamentally. Harvested corn plus its straw may become a very useful source of energy rather than the marginal one it is now. The grass Miscanthus looks as if it would provide a more efficient energy source. The oil crops - which tend to be the energy crops which can also provide nectar for bees - may decline in relative efficiency and drop out of the biofuel market. If that happens you can stop worrying about biofuel crops distorting honey markets, but that may be a decade or two away yet. On your response to Peter's points on pollination of canola/oilseed rape, you are probably right about the prospects for pollination services. Where pollination is absolutely essential, such as in canola hybrid seed production (as Allen well knows!), a fee can be negotiated for the service. But normal cropping doesn't have such a need for bees. In the UK and probably beyond, oilseed rape farmers will welcome or encourage beekeepers but not be prepared to top up any income they get from their honey harvest. best wishes Gavin *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:28:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Bakers Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Most often when I hear of Bakery Honey, the producer is referring to honey taken from wax melters, or otherwise slightly (more or less) overheated. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 21:26:20 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Bakers Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 'Baker's Honey': must be labelled for cooking or industrial use only. Outside the normal limits for HMF and diastase: http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/hmf.html Gavin. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:53:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: South American Honey crop Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>The grass Miscanthus looks as if it would provide a more efficient energy source I have heard grasses, even waste wood clippings, straws could be soon utilized. Sure is an interesting time in agriculture right now, there hasnt been any encouraging noose for such a long time. It will surely be interesting to see how everything unravels. I am also looking at this whole "promise" with a pinch of scepticism. But I get more of a kick out of forward thinking, dont you? I do believe, aside from all this talk, the biggest challenge is not necessarily honey crop price, but rather keeping my bees well and alive! Chow *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 23:41:52 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: CCD, "Marie Celeste" Syndrome and Queen mating problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Peter Detchon" There does seem to be a remarkable similarity between the symptoms of CCD and those associated with "Marie Celeste Syndrome" in the UK (see http://www.defra.gov.uk/hort/Bees/pdf/bees-meeting2005.pdf ). Dave Cushman's website carries an extensive list of problems being experienced in the UK with queen matings and drones health and fitness as observed by Roger Patterson ( http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/rogerpatterson.html ). I would urge caution here. Roger Patterson has managed to gain considerable publicity for his claims, but little actual support as far as I can see from beekeeping organisations (amateur or professional), or from the National Bee Unit - there is no Jerry Bromenshenk look-alike rushing around the UK! I believe that there have been queen failures, but whether they are higher than might be expected is not clear and may well be down to natural events or beekeeper incompeetence, e.g. the weather for the last two springs were very poor and queens raised early may well have failed to mate properly; there are known effects of some varroa treatments on the fertility of queens and drones; many beekeepers are still using Apistan in areas where there are resistant mites; some beekeepers are experimenting with multiple treatments of oxalic acid. Numbers of drones are down due to the loss of feral colonies and, to make matters worse, some beekeepers are removing large amounts of drone brood to keep varroa levels down. Last year I reared over a hundred queens. Of those, one had a deformed wing (probably due to my clumsy handling of the queen cell) and a couple failed to mate satisfactorily - the rest were fine. Of course, I use only thymol for varroa treatment - and I did increase the drone population in my mating apiary by using additional drone comb. So far this spring I have visited around 130 of my colonies (too cold to open them) and found two dead. One had been destroyed by a rat and the other could have been called Marie Celeste as it was virtually empty - but closer examination showed that the queen (from 2004) had become a drone layer and the colony had dwindled to nothing and then died. Most colonies were very active in the sunshine this week, with good pollen loads going in. I have had one or two reports from other beekeepers of Marie Celeste hives - not many, just a handful - and in each case it has been easy to establish the true reason, e.g. no varroa treatment ("there were none in the autumn" - oh yes?) or problems with very late swarms where the queen, unsurprisingly failed to mate. I remain to be convinced that we have any problem in the UK that cannot be explained fairly easily. Something that might help would be the keeping of proper records (both of colonies and the weather) so that beekeepers could look back and, with just a little effort, see that much of what happens today could have been predicted some time ago. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:37:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: The bees are just gone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _amesfarm@HOTMAIL.COM_ (mailto:amesfarm@HOTMAIL.COM) writes: these are just the same beekeepers in the news for the last 3-4 months. I have seen little new losses reported in any of these stories There's a big difference between beekeepers who have the problem, and the few beekeepers who are willing to talk to reporters. Lance and Dave Hackenberg are unusual in their willingness to share their stories of the importance of beekeeping and their insights into the lives of beekeepers as well as their losses. The NY Times reporter called me last week to say that the front page story featuring Lance and other beekeepers generated more letters and e-mails than any other recent report -- and that the public surprised them in the outpouring of concern and suggestions for helping beekeeping. That one story gave beekeeping in the U.S. a real boost in terms of public awareness of the importance of this industry. Lance and Dave ARE not the only beekeepers sustaining these losses. New losses occur every day - one of the nation's large and most respected beekeepers lost most of his operation two weeks ago, another joined the ranks last Wednesday. MANY large beekeepers DO NOT and WILL NOT talk about this with the press, or even many of their fellow beekeepers. Some will report it to the CCD or via our survey site. The most common request on the returned surveys - DO NOT SHARE my answers with any state bee inspector. Others are concerned about sharing any information with other beekeepers. Beekeepers have told us that they worry that the growers will hear that they have CCD and refuse to contract bees from them. They don't want to see inspectors looking for off-label chemicals. They think, and rightly so, that other beekeepers will think that they are poor managers of bees. They also think other beekeepers will object to having their hives nearby. Jerry


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 21:01:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: The bees are just gone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all. I have talked to some beekeepers in our area that have lost some and just did not have any bees left in the hive. Just as the others have had with CCD. While losses are the norm, and I have had a few here in North Alabama this Winter, I had a swarm on Thursday of this week, March 8, 2007. That is as early as I have ever heard of around our area. Anyone else having swarms?? Lionel Evans *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 06:39:23 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Bakers Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the EC honey with a HMF content over 40ppm can be sold only as baker's honey. With attention to marketing it fetches the same price as ordinary honey. Chris *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 10:51:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: CCD, "Marie Celeste" Syndrome and Queen mating problems In-Reply-To: <002c01c7636d$ae56fcf0$c7cc6a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Peter Edwards wrote: > I would urge caution here. Roger Patterson has managed to gain > considerable publicity for his claims, but little actual support as far > as I can see from beekeeping organisations (amateur or professional), or > from the National Bee Unit Although I have no experience of the last two seasons, I have done a considerable amount of queen raising in the timescale covered by Roger Patterson's report. I have not experienced any of the problems that have been raised, although I have had some poor matings... I do not consider even the poor matings to be in any way unusual. One of the reasons for raising excess numbers of queens is to take care of those that fail or are culled. However, my breeding work has been with stock that had a higher native content than occurs in the more southerly parts of UK. It may be a consequence that my stocks were better suited to the conditions that they were kept in. Peter also said... > Something that might help would be the keeping of proper records > (both of colonies and the weather) so that beekeepers could look > back and, with just a little effort, see that much of what happens > today could have been predicted some time ago. I echo that... It is pointless trying to compare seasons without having records for reference. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 07:57:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Cell Punching Frame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/03/2007 14:58:45 GMT Standard Time, dave.cushman@LINEONE.NET writes: http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/roger_punch_frame.html Hi Dave, I don't know of a source of 9.5mm brass tube. Will .38 special do? Chris *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:35:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: The bees are just gone In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter, I agree with your closing comment that a wait-and-see approach will be best. But your preceding comment that "the last thing we need right now is a lot of beekeepers saying that the thing is a hoax" seems to imply that it's somehow worse to be a naysayer (and be later proven wrong) than to have cried wolf (and been wrong). There are many media stories about a "mass disappearance" but from what I can tell, they all trace back to a few anecdotes with no supporting statistical evidence. The limited numbers I've seen so far indicate the opposite - that winter losses so far look to be quite typical especially given the weather last summer and fall (and thus, given the state of winter stores). I'm not ready to call it a hoax but if I'm going to be wrong, I'd rather be labeled skeptical than gullible. Mike Rossander --------------------------------- We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 06:56:31 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: The bees are just gone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Lance and Dave ARE not the only beekeepers sustaining these losses. New > losses occur every day - one of the nation's large and most respected > beekeepers lost most of his operation two weeks ago, another joined the > ranks last Wednesday. I seem to recall (I've been to too many conventions) talking to Lance in Reno several years ago about the same time there was a big round-table meeting of beekeepers dealing with the disappearances that were going on at that time. As I recall, he was *not* having any problem then, and when we discussed chemicals, it appeared he was very knowledgeable, conservative and careful about mite treatment chemicals. Misapplication and over-use of chemicals was the prime suspect of the empty hives at that time. I think if we check the archives, we will find at least three reported massive die-offs in the last decade or so in the USA. In each case, the claims were that the losses were unusual, huge and widespread. Tracheal mites were blamed, but never convicted in one case, and I'm not sure what people decided in the most recent one (before the current losses), but chemicals -- both applied and environmental -- were the prime suspect. Seems widespread disappearance is a regular occurrence, and at the time widely reported, then, each time, almost forgotten after. It is said that a recession is when your neighbour loses his job, and a depression is when you lose yours, and maybe this is somewhat like that? The events are most real to those affected, and a non-event to those spared? At any rate, I made a few stops while in California recently, and met a few people, including a broker, a researcher, and some beekeepers, and I lifted some lids. Couldn't resist. What I saw confirmed rumours I have heard from many places. There are good bees, there are bad bees, and there are some empty hives. Plus la change... I saw doubles with 12 frames that were very consistent through the yard (with some at 8, and only a few at 4-6 frames, but healthy) and I saw drops from a different beekeeper or two that all seemed to be weak or dead or on the way to that condition. The best ones *in my very limited sample* and where I could identify source, were from out of state and the worst were local. As far as adequacy of hive numbers to meet grower needs, I heard of no shortages, but I did hear *rumours* from several sources of at least one large shipment arriving dead or nearly so, and cancelled cheques. I also saw orchards in bloom with no apparent bees on site, although sometimes the drops are in the centre of the orchard where they are not obvious, and also some orchards may have just suddenly come into bloom. Almonds are not a monolithic crop, grown by one operator, but rather scattered fields (orchards) -- large and small -- of various almond varieties and ages, owned and run by diverse interests -- large companies, and individual farmers of varying size and ability -- just like other farm crops. Almond orchards -- large and small -- can be seen here and there while driving the interstates and look just like any fruit crop to the casual observer. Consequently, it is not easy to determine whether the growers' needs are being met on the whole, since it appears that the expectations and attention levels on the part of growers varies widely from those who are casual or even negligent about pollination, to those who are fanatic about having adequate bees. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:04:07 +0000 Reply-To: Mark Lowes Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Lowes Subject: Re: The bees are just gone In-Reply-To: <004901c76389$973bb350$15ebbad8@D98T9541> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Mar 10, 2007 at 09:01:39PM -0600, Lionel wrote: > While losses are the norm, and I have had a few here in North Alabama this > Winter, I had a swarm on Thursday of this week, March 8, 2007. That is as > early as I have ever heard of around our area. Anyone else having > swarms?? I moved my hive this morning (Somerset, UK) and they're very very active with lots of bees on the outside of the hive which I tend to find indicates they're congested inside. I'll be sticking a super on shortly (this is double brood setup already) to try and postpone the chance of them swarming until it's a little warmer and I can take a nuc or an artificial swarm. I wouldn't be surpised to see swarms in the UK at the moment. -- Mark Lowes FreecycleSheptonWellsandStreet@yahoogroups.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreecycleSheptonWellsandStreet/ *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 14:16:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: The bees are just gone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dr. Marla Spivak and CCD poster boy David Hackenberg interviewed on a local public radio call in show http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2007/03/08/midmorning2/ FYI: RealPlayer will play this file which is close to an hour long. I feel this exchange further validates my feelings that CCD is a flash in the pan malady. I thought Marla did an excellent job of stating the facts. I'm not sure the beekeeper did much to promote the bee industry as good stewards of bees or producers of a wholesome, clean, food product (see what you think). Also my comments about CCD on this site are not directed at any beekeeper that may be spotlighted in the media or any single person. My intentions are to point out that this moment of high visibility in the public and beekeeper circles rarely mentions the self inflicted troubles and ignorant practices that have been going on for some time in the US. I truly and deeply believe that mite related and bee heatlh issues are far more serious and far reaching then a disappearing phenomenon which historically has come and gone. I'm afraid CCD is becoming another external problem for some beekeepers to point to instead of turning a loss into a self reflecition and learning experience. The mysterious hocus pocus attached to this "new" maladay in the media is almost Twilight Zone material and not helping the situation IMO. My strong feeling is that the US bees industry is experiencing a bad case of "indigestion" concerning the after affects of moving from ineffectual strips to new mite treatments. Many beekeepers I have contact with are not fully digesting the fact that these new materials are time or temp sensitive and unlike their predeccesors cannot be applied any time and at "double strength" to be most effective. It may take a few seasons for some to work out the nuances of these new treatments and integrate that into their operation. P.S. Writing from Mn where winter is winding down & temps are close to 50F and our colonies are out on cleansing fligths. All looks normal from here with typical winter losses. over *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 01:04:32 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron & Eefje Subject: Re: The bees are just gone In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Brian for that link. I'm wondering: Has anyone seen a report that shows the world-wide situation for the disappearance of bees from their hives so far? My observations: Since I only own a few hives it is harder to make accurate conclusions, but my losses this year are so far 70% and thereby my highest losses so far. For my situation it is important to name that the hives are stationary in a mixed bushy/farmland area with no professional farmers nearby and to my knowledge no chemicals used on any of that farmland. The hobby farmers here have not used any gene-modified crops either. Since I started beekeeping 4 years ago no chemicals of any kind have ever been used in the hives to control pests or diseases and so far I have not been able to find any Varroa in my hives. Of course there could be mites present that would only show up after forcing a drop down by chemicals, but I have refused to use them so far. With large scale infestation, some specific signs would have been found and I would have found some dead mites between the droppings on the floorboards. My hives are not in the vicinity of any other apiaries so there was no direct danger or concern either that my hives could cause problems to other apiaries. I am not completely organic yet, since the foundation that I have bought could very well have contained residues of Apistan or other substances that originated from other beekeepers. No requeening has taken part in 2006 by my hand that could have introduced a new problem. My bees have in the past years not been fed syrup or sugar solutions for the wintering, enough honey is left behind for them in stead. But with all the previous taken in account, whatever caused the fleeing of my own colonies it seems fair to conclude that it had nothing to do with: - chemical use on my part - pesticide use of farmers - gene-modified nectar or pollen sources - requeening - winter feeding - lack of varieties in nectar and pollen When the weather conditions improve and temperatures rise I hope to get a chance to dive deeper in the hives and see if anything out of the ordinary can be found, like a disease or external causes like mice or pests. Ron van Mierlo Sweden Brian Fredericksen skrev: > Dr. Marla Spivak and CCD poster boy David Hackenberg interviewed on a local public radio call in > show > > http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2007/03/08/midmorning2/ > > ............ *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:37:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Faith vs Reason, Part 3 =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=97?= Odor recruitment Comments: cc: sam.cook@bbsrc.ac.uk, phwells@earthlink.net, Kim Flottum , PayneT@missouri.edu, "Laszlo Pentek (DISB)" , Ruth Rosin , Joe Graham , tpaine@ucrac1.ucr.ed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear BEE-L subscribers: On March 4th, Aaron Morris wrote: “I'd rather spend my time reading about something that will impact my beekeeping.” Dick Allen responded: “Interesting. In my life as a commercial beekeeper, the theories of how bees find and communicate their food sources have always been in the back of my mind when working bees.” For decades now I have attempted to point out the importance of odor during recruitment of bees to food sources, findings that can really impact beekeeping and should interest people like Aaron. For instance, does one really have to distribute colonies throughout an orchard for effective pollination? Or can hives be placed upwind or downwind (or both) from an orchard to achieve the same result? An expanded resolution of that question could mean a great deal of difference in expenses to those who rent colonies out for pollination. Whereas some language advocates in this country, in Britain, and in Germany still resolutely refuse to consider seriously the value of von Frisch’s 1930s odor-search hypothesis (see: beesource.com/pov/wenner/bw1993.htm), others are not so constrained. I don’t think it an accident that I was Keynote Speaker at an international meeting in St. Petersburg, Russia in 2005 and Plenary Speaker during opening ceremonies in Kusadasi, Turkey last fall. My talks were very well received (except for a strong objection from a German who had been involved in the radar tracking experiments). I gave much the same address as president at the WAS meetings here this past summer and encountered no objections. See: beesource.com/pov/wenner/odorabstract.htm for the content of those talks. I think one can see much potential practical application for beekeepers. My co-workers and I spent more than a decade documenting the role of odor during recruitment and search behavior of recruited bees. We followed the rules that I posted in my part 2 of this series and did not attempt to prove a hypothesis true. We instead sought to learn how undisturbed bees behaved in the field. We gathered data as thousands of those bees searched and published our extensive results in refereed scientific journals. Unfortunately, “giants” in bee research were disturbed by the implications of our research; that is, the dance language hypothesis was not necessary to explain our results. We have now seen more than three decades of futile attempts by believers to “prove” that hypothesis true, with results obtained from the performance of only a few dozen bees in most cases. In all cases I know of, “they tried to fit facts to the hypothesis.” By contrast, we had discovered how well the von Frisch odor-search hypothesis facts we had obtained. Language advocates have embraced the results of such rather trivial “success” experiments, even though beekeepers still reap no benefit from such research. More peculiar, they welcomed publication of a review by sociologist Eileen Crist, who did her best to accumulate positive evidence in favor of the hypothesis (and interviewed only language supporters, while ignoring our substantial evidence about the role of odor). Curiously, advocates also welcomed the Emily Smith and Gard Otis “resolution” articles (which relied heavily on the Crist article and also ignored all of the evidence we had published on the search behavior of thousands of “unmolested” bees). Such behavior constitutes a great disservice to beekeepers. The same holds true of various bee books published these past three decades. Beekeepers will find little or no mention about the results we obtained from the behavior of thousands of searching bees. I consider it highly unprofessional for researchers to omit results that might help beekeepers understand their craft. Ignoring or dismissing hard evidence does not make it disappear. Now, thanks to Barry Birkey, most of our extensive experimental results are readily available to beekeepers at beesource.com/pov. One example, beesource.com/pov/wenner/sci1969.htm, shows a tally of more than 2,000 recruit arrivals in a blind, “crucial experiment” design. We also provided every bit of the data we gathered during a 17-day sequence of experiments (no “cherry picking” of data there!). I am certain that bright readers on this list who studied those results and design could well see that the conclusions derived follow from the results — should they choose to spend the time studying that publication. Any bee researcher or beekeeper, with the help of some student volunteers, could easily repeat that experiment in a few weeks during a slack time of nectar in summer. (I don’t expect that to happen.) Those who would like a more general summary of the implications of our research can access: beesource.com/pov/wenner/az1991.htm (an invited review paper). In there I show how results obtained by language advocates can fit nicely into the von Frisch odor-search hypothesis. For how swarm movement fits into the odor-search hypothesis, one can read: beesource.com/pov/wenner/abjjan1992.htm Others have attributed to me such notions as “bees conduct a random search” and “odor can explain everything.” Not true — beekeeper Don Cole’s comment on this list rings more true: “The challenges to the DL hypothesis, such as the odor search hypothesis, constitute a ''case open'' position. I find the subject endlessly fascinating.” My attitude is that we actually know almost nothing about the strange world of bees and should distrust anyone who comes up with “irrefutable” answers. On that point see: beesource.com/pov/wenner/jib2002.htm The honey bee genome analysis yielded 170 odor receptor sites (but none for bee use of other dance maneuver information). Let us now exploit that great lead ! Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm "No one can walk backward into the future." (Chinese fortune cookie) *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:56:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: spring activity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, Beautiful warm and sunny here in Eastern Ontario Canada today and I was = heading back into the bush to cut some trees. Must have been around +5 = C today and the snow was melting. All hives were busting out the top = entrance and flying around. Nice feeling watching the ladies since I = haven't seen them for a few months. I see some early spring flowers = just starting to pop their heads up. I have a mix of Russian and = Carniolan. Have to keep a sharp eye out for the food situation, my = grandfather used to call this month "hungry March". All in all things = look good here. Kent Stienburg *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 21:42:19 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: The bees are just gone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > many beekeepers don't know what they are doing with mite > treatments yet after more then a decade. But that would > not make for the most interesting news story would it? Mite problems, even serious ones, would not present the symptoms being seen with CCD. > My strong feeling is that the US bees industry is > experiencing a bad case of "indigestion" concerning the > after affects of moving from ineffectual strips to new mite > treatments. If this were true, then one would see a less confusing type of colony losses, one much more familiar to nearly all beekeepers. > I think if we check the archives, we will find at least three > reported massive die-offs in the last decade or so in the USA. With very different overt symptoms. Compare the 2001/2002 die-off (thought to be an imidacloprid problem at the time) on Prince Edward Island with the situation at hand. Compare and contrast. It is apparently easy to sit back and wax philosophical about someone else's disaster. But I am not at all happy about comments that blame the victims, such as: > the headlines could be "Beekeepers in Disorder on how to Care for > Bees (after EPA approved strips that contaminate comb stop working)" > or maybe "Bees Dying by the Hundreds as some Beekeepers stand by > Clueless" *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:29:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Cell Punching Frame In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris > http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/roger_punch_frame.html > I don't know of a source of 9.5mm brass tube. Will .38 special do? I thought about this while assembling the page... .38 special is a bit short, but .357 Mag would be about right, use a Dremel tool to cut the head off... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/dremel.html The thin walled tube that results can then be sharpened on one end using a de-burring tool... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/deburringtool.html or alternatively, sharpen using a carrot cutter... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/bradrad.html#cone Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 05:38:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The bees are just gone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, >Mite problems, even serious ones, would not present the symptoms being seen with CCD. I realize we have been over the above before but many of us believe that past chemicals used to control varroa are suspect ( Jeff Pettis ABF presentations). Parasitic mite syndrome ( Dr. Shiminuki) as explained to us can display itself as many symptoms. "Shim" said from the start that once virus gets a start then all researchers can do is say PMS symptoms are present. The one "new" part of PMS ( virus & fungi included as per "Shim") is the research of Diana Cox Fisher (Penn State) which proves bees can spread PMS contamination while pollinating and can bring the contamination back to infect new hives. We always suspected such but now we are sure. Also we now know once the queen is infected with virus the whole hive can be infected through the egg. I have only spoken with Dr. Shiminuki once since his retirement and have not now got contact information for "Shim" but would love to hear his opinion on CCD. I believe his opinion would be valuable to the CCD team. I have got quite a bit of varroa and PMS experience. Both from my own bees and other operations. I believe quite a bit of CCD can be traced back to the above ( maybe not all for sure). An emergency room nurse told me heart attack symptoms are expressed in many ways other than pain directly over the heart. A sharp pain in the shoulder blade is common. Symptoms can vary with disease making diagnosis hard. We are taking a closer look ( Penn State) at "PMS" than we ever have before. Learning new things but still "PMS" is not new. Varroa is in all the CCD hives. With varroa comes "PMS". Parasitic Mite syndrome might explain the die off better than colony collapse disorder. CCD points simply to a big unknown. What if no new unknown problem is found? What do the test results say? I think after being in the bee business over forty years if a new problem had been found we would have been told by now. Tests take hours or days not MONTHS! PMS points to what Diana Cox Fisher has found in the deadouts of the CCD hives. Virus & fungus. She points out that PMS is present even if the classic symptoms are not displayed. Hypothesis: New forms of virus may be only effecting the adult bees. Also we have long known that older bees would rather fly from the hive to die than die in the hive. I started an article years ago about the curious phenomenon of "suicide" bees. As I said before I welcome all the current bee research! Sincerely, Bob Harrison "What we don't know is so vast it makes what we do know seem absurd" **************************************************************************** ******* * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * **************************************************************************** ******* -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 22:01:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Wild Bees Reject Genetically Engineered Crop--Potential Major Impact on Pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all: Just had to post this from Ecological Society of America, Dec 23, 2006. >From Ecological Society of America Referring to a June 2005 peer-reviewed article. Has there been any research on GMO seeds, and what they do to our industry bees seeing how wild ones reject them? Also, if rejected and bad, how would this then relate to recent discussion of pollenation of crops relative to bio-fuels or am I missing something? http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_3665.cfm Respectfully submitted: Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 10:49:34 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alastair A Botes Subject: Re: The bees are just gone In-Reply-To: <004901c76389$973bb350$15ebbad8@D98T9541> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Yes , In Cape Town , South Africa, Ive had 3 swarms arrive outside the honey room in old supers in the last week . odd but welcome . ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lionel Sent by: BEE-L 2007/03/11 05:01 AM Please respond to Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu cc: Subject: Re: [BEE-L] The bees are just gone Hi all. I have talked to some beekeepers in our area that have lost some and just did not have any bees left in the hive. Just as the others have had with CCD. While losses are the norm, and I have had a few here in North Alabama this Winter, I had a swarm on Thursday of this week, March 8, 2007. That is as early as I have ever heard of around our area. Anyone else having swarms?? Lionel Evans *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:49:27 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: The bees are just gone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>They also think [because of CCD] other beekeepers will object to having their hives nearby. Just as with AFB. If CCD has a microbial basis and you have not seen CCD in your hives you might want to put some distance between yours and the affected apiary. I can understand the fears but knowing who is suffering in your neck of the woods might be useful in limiting the problem. Waldemar *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 07:56:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Wild Bees Reject Genetically Engineered Crop--Potential Major Impact on Pollination Comments: To: Dee Lusby Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This has already been discussed here. See archives. However, it is worth pointing out how the title you present skews the impact of the actual report. > WILD BEE ABUNDANCE AND SEED PRODUCTION IN CONVENTIONAL, ORGANIC, AND GENETICALLY MODIFIED CANOLA by Lora A. Morandin,a, 1 and Mark L. Winston > Our study has demonstrated an interesting pattern in which wild bee abundance is related to improved crop yields, but a genetically modified crop variety designed to improve yields through weed management might have the undesired consequence of reducing bee abundance in the field. However, it is important to note that other factors may be correlated with field type and be as important to bee abundance. For example, organic farmers tend to locate farther from established farm areas in order to satisfy minimum distance regulations regarding proximity to GM fields, possibly resulting in greater amounts of seminatural habitat around fields. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:35:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: The bees are just gone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: >What do the test results say? I think after being in the bee business over >forty years if a new problem had been found we would have been told by now. Maryanne Frazier, a honeybee specialist in Pennsylvania and member of the newly formed Colony Collapse Disorder Working Group thinks that there is something unique about what is happening this year. "The sheer magnitude suggests that this is something new. The bad year we had last year is likely playing a part in this — but it is unlikely that that stress alone would cause such a big a problem. Maybe there is an unknown disease that wasn't a problem before and now, coupled with the stress, it has become a big one," said Frazier. http://www.chroniclet.com/ -- pb *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:06:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The bees are just gone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Member of CCD teams says: "The sheer magnitude suggests that this is something new. What sheer magnitude? I think we have established the die off is not larger than in the past AND not near as widespread as media hype. Middle of March and most beekeepers have at least had a peek into hives. Plenty of queens and packages available yet from last report.( true indicator in winter losses). California reports hives still alive in almonds. Many Midwest will be returning in another ten days. bob * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * **************************************************************************** ******* -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. *********************************************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * *********************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 10:52:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ted_Hancock?= Subject: Re: The bees are just gone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 05:38:49 -0600, Bob Harrison wrote: > >An emergency room nurse told me heart attack symptoms are expressed in many >ways other than pain directly over the heart. A sharp pain in the shoulder >blade is common. Symptoms can vary with disease making diagnosis hard. > Hi Bob, One unusual symptom of CCDD seems to be the lack of robbing by other insects for a period of time. On hearing this I immediatly thought of cows that die from eating Hemlock. Hemlock is a very poisonous plant that grows along creeks etc. in our area. Around this time of year a cow may eat some Hemlock root while rustling for shoots of grass and get poisoned. Ranchers always know the cause when no coyote or crow will eat the carcass. Somehow they smell the poison. In an earlier email you said: "If a huge amount of virus contamination is on the comb then the next swarm will crash earlier than the normal four months of intense brood rearing." I am not sure what you meant by this. Are you saying comb can become contaminated with virus? I had thought viruses needed a host to live(if viruses really are alive). I have had hives crash from varroa and re-used the equipment with no noticable problem. While on the topic of poisonous plants I wanted to mention Mountain Pine Vetch that also grows in my area. It is poisonous to bees. I have been keeping bees in this area since 1984. For the first few years I noticed when I moved bees to the top end of one valley they always dwindled. I put it down to elevation and cold nights so stopped moving them up so early. But one spring the bee inspector came driving in that way and noticed a lot of Mtn. Pine Vetch blooming ( blooms in May). He told me research has shown this vetch is poisonous to bees. Ted ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:38:15 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Wild Bees Reject Genetically Engineered Crop -- NOT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Has there been any research on GMO seeds, and what they do to our industry > bees seeing how wild ones reject them? As Peter pointed out, we discussed this study here on BEE-L earlier and some had a closer look at the study, itself and not just the abstract. After some balanced consideration, we concluded that this study does not prove, or even suggest that the bees "reject them". That would require another, different study. What this study did was compare *cropping systems*, not cultivars. To quote: "Pollination deficit ...and bee abundance were measured in organic, conventional, and herbicide-resistant, genetically modified (GM) canola fields". Previously, some people, perhaps reading too quickly or with an agenda, concluded that the study somehow compared the cultivars, however, that would require making other things equal, and the other things not being equal were precisely what this study was trying to evaluate. When we looked at this study carefully, the confusion became apparent, and, as I recall, someone communicated with one of the people involved. Our conclusion was that, although this is an interesting study, and something to ponder, that the take home message is not so much about the cultivars in question, but the entire management surrounding each. That is not news to beekeepers. We have big problems with monoculture and sprays of all sorts. FWIW, it seems from closer reading and rumination of the facts, that the likely cause of differing bee levels of wild bee activity in the crops examined were likely due to 1.) the amount of attractive weed in the crops, 2.) the surrounding environment (wild areas, weeds, etc.) 3.) the levels of chemical use before, during, and after the crop and, 4.) the cropping history of the land. Also, remember that these hybrids are designed to be sprayed in early stages, before flowering, so any weeds, or volunteer non-hybrid canola that might be training bees to the crop area or sustaining them would be gone. I live and work around these canola crops, and I can testify that, even if the non-organic crops are not sprayed for pests during bloom, they may be right after, and if that occurs, then the pilots often take a run down the margins, as well, to empty the tanks, sell more spray, and get rid of any pests that might be in the fencelines or adjoining crop. The effect of that on wild insects living in the area lasts a year or more, particularly where the insects do not forage far. In other words, anywhere near a non-organic crop is not an easy place for wild species to build or maintain populations. As for whether the hybrids are any more or less attractive than other domestic varieties, we have little or no useful info. We know that attractiveness varies even within samples of the same cultivar after undergoing selection, but do not know if the differences are significant. >From my own experience, I can assure anyone concerned that honeybees are attracted to and pollinate *any* canola, GMO or not and seem to thrive on the nectar and pollens. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:11:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: the demise of beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am not what you would call a seasoned veteran of beekeeping like most of the contributors to this list. I’m a hobbyist. I’ve been at it for about five years now and I am up to about six hives in my back yard and elsewhere. I do have a degree in zoology but I never pursued a career in the life sciences. I only offer this in the way of a grain of salt to be taken when considering what I am about to say. A couple of years ago I mentioned to the list a prediction made by Rudolf Steiner, almost a century ago, regarding the collapse of beekeeping, which was, according to him, to take place right about this time. At the time I had no way of gauging the accuracy of his prediction or the soundness of his basis for making it, and I still don’t. He was an influential occult spiritualist whose teachings have a wide following even to this day. As I remember, his main concern for the future of beekeeping was due to the rising popularity of the practice of artificial insemination, which he thought was a bad idea. I don’t think I give Steiner any more credit that he has coming to him for making a prediction that may or may not be coming true before our eyes, but it has given me food for thought when I read about all the beekeeping bad news, and contemplate what bees are, and how their relationship to humans came to be what it is. My main understanding of the current state of beekeeping comes from reading this list. From it I have formed a general impression that beekeeping has evolved into something quite different than it was a hundred years ago when Rudolf Steiner made his prediction; not for everyone but just in general, and especially in the developed nations such as the United States and Canada where agriculture is so… so big. Obviously commercial beekeeping and agriculture have evolved together, emerging as very large scale operations which have a degree of codependence upon each other. From my background in biology I have a very general understanding of the complexity of the evolution of biological systems, and of the dynamics of populations. If I think of the honey bee as a naturally occurring organism which has evolved over vast expanses of time to adapt to a somewhat broad, but never the less limited range of environmental conditions, I am able to vaguely imagine a set of parameters which are ideal for the species as a whole. It would be tempting to exclude human intervention from this picture, but it can not be denied that, at least up to a point, the success of Apis mellifera is, in fact, due to human exploitive activity. Having said that, it is at the same time hard to see how the current extent of this exploitation can further the long term interest of the honey bee species. There are many aspects to this dilemma, but one that surely can not be ignored is the discrepancy that exists between how bees would distribute themselves in nature, and how they are forced to exist in medium to large scale beekeeping operations. Beyond that there are the processes that are involved in generating enough bees and queens to keep this industry supplied. How close to nature, or should I say how far from nature have these techniques and processes become? I would not argue, as some do, that we should get our honey, like the bears, from trees and hollow logs, but I do think that it is a mistake to think that there is no limit to how far you can take a living system from its naturally designed way of existing, without eventually finding yourself way out on a limb with it. That is where it seems to me beekeeping and agriculture in general, is going or has gone; out on a limb. No one knows, least of all me, just how far out on a limb we are, nor how long we can stay there before it breaks, but it seems clear that a correction is being made even as we speak. It also seems clear that this correction will be motivated by purely economic reasons, not by any highly conscious level of understanding of what is optimal for bees. In fact that doesn’t seem to be the main thrust of the conversation. It’s more about how can we keep this ship flying with parts missing. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:24:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: The bees are just gone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted wrote: Are you saying comb can become contaminated with virus? I had thought viruses needed a host to live(if viruses really are alive). Judy Chen showed that viruses do indeed contaminate the comb. Queens also carry viruses, so all the bees have some degree of exposure. The key point is whether the viruses are inactive (latent) or active (apparent). Bee colonies generally don't have much problem with viruses unless there is an added vector. Varroa fits the bill for the vector. Once the varroa infestation gets high enough, the vectoring allows the virus to go epidemic. See my article in Feb ABJ for reference. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:50:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The bees are just gone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ted & All, Bob Harrison said: >"If a huge amount of virus contamination is on the comb then the next swarm will crash earlier than the normal four months of intense brood rearing." I actually have been saying the above for around four years on BEE-L. Many might remember a long time ago I mistakenly said virus spores which caused a stir as virus do not have spores. I based my statement above on two experiences. One the crash of 1000 of hives in Florida trying to use PMS comb again. and On a couple thousand boxes of PMS comb in Missouri which *seem* to show PMS signs before what is assumed to be varroa treatment threshold. A third experiment will be done this year by placing 200 package bees on old PMS comb.( these are not my bees). We are hoping to control varroa at a high enough level that PMS will not be an issue. At the ABF convention in Austin, Texas Diana Cox Foster gave two presentations on new virus research done at Penn State. I also spoke at length with her about her research. She told us the information I posted earlier . She said PMS comb needs replaced and the boxes power washed OR varroa needs to be controlled at a level virus issues do not come into play ( or at least the above is my understanding after attending both presentations and personal conversation). Dr. Brenda Ball & Dr. Norman Carrick ( U.K.) have said 1. bees can easily control varroa without virus. 2. If you can control varroa at a high level then virus issues are not a problem. Also Dr. Shiminuki said PMS is a late stage varroa infestation issue. However as I told Dr. Delaplane last year we are seeing virus issues today in hives which do not carry a high varroa load so the symptoms are changing. I firmly believe if you control varroa you will not have virus issues. Replacing virus contamination comb in my opinion reduces the need for such a high varroa control. My comb which had PMS contamination was replaced a few years ago and I have not seen PMS IN MY HIVES since. Plenty in other beekeepers hives. In fact in my leave alone *survivor* hives they might crash from varroa but I see no PMS signs. I will also say the Russian/Russian bee seems to tolerate varroa loads which would kill most races and not display PMS. I wonder if varroa survival with the Russians has something to do with being able to tolerate virus associated with varroa ( PMS>) Sincerely, Bob Harrison " What we don't know is so vast it makes what we do know seem absurd" ******************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:31:58 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe carson Subject: Re: The bees are just gone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Does this lead us to believe that powder sugaring our packages prior to installing would be a good practice? As opposed to sugar water wetting? Or is sugar water with Honey B Healthy added achieve the same results? Dr. Joe Carson Alaska _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:55:59 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: the demise of beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > ...a prediction made by Rudolf Steiner, almost a century ago, > regarding the collapse of beekeeping... He was an > influential occult spiritualist... > ...his main concern for the future of beekeeping was due to > the rising popularity of the practice of artificial insemination, > which he thought was a bad idea. But is there any area of animal husbandry where artificial insemination has not been employed? If Steiner's concerns were valid as applied to bees, why would that same concern not apply to all animals that are bred for agriculture? I'm not knocking those who employ "traditional breeding", but let's face it if you want a consistently good-quality stock (and who doesn't?), open mating one's breeder queens has a historical failure rate approaching what one would expect for origami condoms. > it has given me food for thought when I read about all the beekeeping > bad news, and contemplate what bees are, and how their relationship > to humans came to be what it is. "The Death Of Beekeeping, Film at 11" has been announced so many times, I've lost count. The bees have paid no attention. > it is at the same time hard to see how the current extent of this > exploitation can further the long term interest of the honey bee > species > No one knows, least of all me, just how far out on a limb we are, Not to play "dueling metaphors", but "out on a limb" is where the fruit is always found. >it seems clear that a correction is being made even as we speak. While it is possible that moving bees around and keeping them in close proximity helped CCD spread, even this would be mere speculation at this early stage. But if we do run up against a serious problem with significant implications for the "future of beekeeping" or "the future of bees", my money will be on our ability to use tools like artificial insemination (tools EXACTLY like artificial insemination) to save the day. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:56:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: Wild Bees Reject Genetically Engineered Crop -- NOT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think this study has significance beyond telling us something we already know... or more to point, telling something people farming canola think they know. There has been a significant shift in canola cropping systems since a lot of the canola pollination work was last done. The canola industry still operates under the paradigm of these studies - ie Brassica napus does not benefit from supplemental honey bee pollination. This study suggests there may be need to revise this paradigm now that they largely farm GM. The paper describes a significant pollination deficit in Round-Up Ready fields arising from fewer pollinators (~1.5 times greater yield compared to a coventional field and ~6 times greater compared to an organic field). What does a ‘pollination deficit’ mean in the context of this study? It means a difference in the average number of seeds per fruit between supplementally pollinated (what would happen if you had unlimited pollinators) and open-pollinated flowers. Overall GM seedpods had around 6 fewer seeds per seedpod when open-pollinated compared to being supplementally pollinated, whereas in organic fields the difference was just 1 seed per seedpod. Clearly the GM fields would benefit from having more pollinators. I am not sure GM canola, as a rule, run pollination deficits compared to conventionally grown canola... this requires additional study. If it turned out to be true, might it not offer beekeepers an opportunity to revaluate their relationships with their canola-growing neighbours? Currently Canadian beekeepers are not paid to put bees on production canola fields, only in the fields used to produce hybrid seed for planting. A persistent pollination deficit in GM fields would no doubt be a potential boon for beekeeping. Rather than write the study off as being common sense, I think it should be repeated. I think this was a nicely-done study. It was conscice, well executed and conducted one of Canada's most significant crops (argueably the most imporant honey bee forage). I agree with Peter and Allen that it was a shame that it got yanked out of context and used to make the case for GM crops repelling bees from fields. This careless arguement distracted from the very carefully laid and supportable case that the yield increases from Round-Up Ready canola cropping systems may be subverted by their inability to sustain large populations of pollinators. For anyone who is still interested (and I doubt there are many) I have attached a summary of the state of knowledge on this issue as of 2001 from a Bee World review by Don Nelson and Lynn Westcott (sorry for the spaces). In the Morandin study, the organic field was B. rapa (ie the self-sterile cultivar) whereas the conventional and GM fields were B. napus (ie self-pollinating). Regards, Adony The need for insect pollinators in canola and rapeseed crops. It is generally considered that cultivars of B. rapa are self-sterile and require insect crosspollination to set seed11,19,28,42,92, but there are conflicting views on the need for insect pollination in B. napus. Brassica napus is considered self-fertile and produces good seed yields without insect pollination19,23,92. Despite their assertions that insect pollinators are not necessary for good seed yield in B. napus, Free & Nuttall reported a 13% seed yield increase in B. napus plots with bees compared to those without bees23. They did not feel that this was a large enough increase to justify the use of bees for pollination23. Downey et al. reported that B. napus is 70% self-pollinated, but this presumably leaves the remainder in need of insect- or wind-mediated cross-pollination19. Canola and rapeseed have sticky pollen typical of plants requiring insect pollination20, which suggests that wind activity is not the only means of B. napus pollination. Windpollinated species usually have smooth, dry pollen grains that are readily dispersed through the air. Eisikowitch found that B. napus cv. Maris Haplona pollen adhered to the flowers’ anthers under wind velocities as high as 5.0 m/sec20. He suggested that selfpollination must be the result of direct contact between the long anthers and the stigma with little pollen transfer through the air20. He concluded that insect pollination is important in setting seeds in this particular B. napus cultivar. Many researchers have concluded that insect pollination of B. rapa and B. napus is necessary to provide high seed-meal lipid concentration78, higher seed set and yield43,45,58,78, higher numbers of seeds per pod and higher numbers of pods41,92, earlier pod formation21,96, earlier cessation of flowering 58,96, faster and more uniform seed maturation 46, and increased germination of seeds39. All of these factors may contribute to a higher-quality crop that ripens more evenly and is easier to harvest95. Most of the canola hybrids and open-pollinated cultivars currently produced and sold to Canadian growers are B. napus. Farmers who purchase and grow these hybrids may be interested to understand the pollination requirements of their crop, especially if B. rapa hybrids are developed and become commercially available within the first decade of the 21st century50. Canola growers may find it beneficial to work co-operatively with beekeepers to maximize their seed yield. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:16:00 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Wild Bees Reject Genetically Engineered Crop -- NOT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I think this study has significance beyond telling us something we already >know... The paper describes a significant pollination deficit in Round-Up >Ready fields arising from fewer pollinators (~1.5 times greater yield >compared to a coventional field and ~6 times greater compared to an organic >field). Thanks for pointing this out. It is easy to miss, but the implications for beekeepers struggling to make ends meet is enormous. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:49:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: the demise of beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Rudolf Steiner was a very interesting person. Considered by many to be the father of biodynamic farming . Also known for his eight lectures on bees. I was told Steiner wrote over fifty books in German ( some of which have been translated into English ) The eight lectures contained in the book " Bees" were translated by Thomas Braatz. Available in book stores. Little is said about his well known physic abilities. Reports i read said Steiner worked with several intellegence agencies during the war years in Europe. I won't go into detail about his war predictions but the reports said he provided valuable information. His prediction on bees was done two years before his death in 1925. The prediction is so close too what is happening it is chilling to read: The below taking from page 86 of *the Apple Grower* by Michael Phillips in 1998 ( almost a decade ago). "Agriculture is deeply indebted to the honeybee. Yet there's tradgedy brewing in the hives. The gentle honeybee has been bred for profit to the point where it has become easy prey for viruses and parasitic mites that are destrying the species. Pesticides take their toll as well. Rudolf Steiners prediction in 1923 that mankind would lose the honeybee in eighty years time is looking ominnnously correct" The exact wording is in the book " Bees" but past my bedtime and I do not have the passage marked but have read the passage and points to the above reasons for a possible future collapse of the honeybee. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:05:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ted_Hancock?= Subject: Re: the demise of beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:55:59 -0500, James Fischer wrote: >But if we do run up against a serious problem with significant >implications for the "future of beekeeping" or "the future of bees", >my money will be on our ability to use tools like artificial insemination >(tools EXACTLY like artificial insemination) to save the day. Hi Jim, I appreciated many of the points made by Steve Noble but agree that artifical (instrumental?) insemination is a bit of a red herring. But if we could get our minds of sex for a minute... I don't see how AI is going to solve many of the problems beekeeping is facing. The problems I see are polluted hives, polluted air and polluted soil. We know bees thrive in a clean environment. So you would think beekeepers would be the biggest environmentalists around but their not. Instead we're solving problems short term by trucking bees around the country, flying bees around the world and using drugs up the ying yang. And I do think we are way out on a limb. Another metaphor that comes to mind is "having all your eggs in one basket". Modern agriculture is depending pretty heavily on honeybees for pollination. If the environment is posioning them I don't think instrumental insemination is going to save the day. There are lots of books around these days that chronicle the collapse of civilizations that over exploited their environments. ( eg. Collapse by Jared Diamond, History of the World by J.M.Roberts, dare I mention Al Gore?) It is easy to be fatalistic about what will happen with our civilization and say we can't change our path but I appreciate Steve for at least discussing the matter. And thanks for the laughs. Your posts always make me laugh somehow. Ted ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:38:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: The bees are just gone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob, >>If you can control varroa at a high level then virus issues are not a problem. If new bees are put on the combs from a PMS colony and the varroa is controlled for say 6 months, will the new colony's activities on the comb make the virus less accessible? Will the cocoons and new coatings of wax/propolis seal the virus to a large degree? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:48:19 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: the demise of beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>The problems I see are polluted hives, polluted air and polluted soil. A fellow beekeeper has been keeping a few hives on farms east of here. He does it for the pollination of crops. He says, unlike his hives in suburbia, the farm hives never build up well in the spring/summer and the queens get frequently superceded. This changes in the late summer, after the farmers stopped using chemicals, but the colonies don't get strong enough to gather the fall crop in the adjacent fields. Clean hives and pastures are key. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:35:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: the demise of beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > " Rudolf Steiners prediction in 1923 that mankind would lose the honeybee in eighty years time is looking ominnnously correct" Interesting discussion. Seems to me, however, that this list often gets focused on North American problems, and assumes that they are representative of the entire world. As far as I know, worldwide beekeeping is growing and thriving. One simple indicator is in the price of honey and wax. There is no shortage, and the glut is growing. Maybe we need to consider the rest of the world before we declare a worldwide disaster? To note just one large gap in our perspective, Asia is home to over 60% of the world's human population, has a huge and divese land mass and is home to several honey bee species and numerous races. We do have some members from Europe, Great Britain, Australia, Africa, and Greece, plus people who have been to other spots in the world on extension or missionary work. Do we have any Asian representation, or enough information to draw conclusions about the state of bees and beekeeping in Asia? How about Africa? We have at least one person there, but Africa has numerous very distinct regions and honey bee races. In South America, there are several races, a number of distict and separate climactic zones, and the number of hives is growing at an alarming rate (from a North American beekeeper's perspective) . Anyone in South America care to comment? Australia is, last I heard, doing OK. In fact they are exporting bees to North America, as is New Zealand. Anyone care to comment from that region? I realise that I am leaving out other significant regions of the world (Malaysia?) and I apologise for that. I am short of time, and, as I started out saying, quite ignorant about worldwide beekeeping. Hopefully some others will fill me in. How about speaking up from your corner of the world with your location and a status report? In short, does it look as if we are in danger of losing the honeybee (sic) this decade or anytime soon, (and which race/species of honey bee is your local favourite). http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/info/info/species/honey-bee-species.shtml ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:34:58 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Wild Bees Reject Genetically Engineered Crop -- NOT Comments: To: allen@honeybeeworld.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...i don't think you are correct (unless i read the study wrong). it isn't that the fields are "roundup ready", it's that they spray the "roundup ready" fields with....roundup, killing all the weeds and border plants. as someone said before here...there would have to be a very differant study to determine if any of this is due to being "roundup ready", or if it just has to do with actually using roundup. deknow -- allen dick wrote: The paper describes a significant pollination deficit in Round-Up >Ready fields arising from fewer pollinators (~1.5 times greater yield >compared to a coventional field and ~6 times greater compared to an organic >field). ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:32:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: the demise of beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A warning to beekeepers: I would steer clear of Rudolph Steiner. Example: > When a person has advanced to the stage of seeing into his inner self, he can sink his consciousness into other beings. For this he must have gained control of the point midway between the eyes and from there direct his consciousness downward into the heart. Then he can transfer his consciousness into other things; for example, he can then investigate what lives in an ant heap. Then he can also perceive the life in a beehive. > Here however a phenomenon presents itself which is otherwise not to be experienced on earth. In the way a beehive functions one experiences something which is outside our earthly existence, something which is not found anywhere else on earth. What takes place on the other planets cannot be discovered merely by thinking. One cannot for example experience what is taking place on the Sun or Venus if one is unable to transfer one's consciousness into the life and functioning of a colony of bees. > The bee has not gone through the whole course of evolution as we have. >From the outset it has not been connected with the same evolutionary sequence as the other animals and man. The consciousness of the beehive, not of the single bee, is immensely lofty. The wisdom of this consciousness will only be attained by man in the Venus existence. Then he will have the consciousness which is necessary in order to build with a substance which he creates out of his own being. > The ants build the ant heap out of all sorts of things, but as yet build no cells. The building of cells is on higher planes something absolutely different. Through transferring one's consciousness into the beehive, through taking on the Venus consciousness, one learns something entirely different from anything else on earth, the complete recession of the element of sex. > With the bees what is sexual is vested only in the one queen. The kama-sexuality is almost entirely eliminated; the drones are killed. Here we have the prototype of something which will actually be accomplished in a future humanity, when work is the highest principle. It is only through the impulse of the spirit that one gains the faculty of transferring oneself into the community of the bees. [just the tip of the iceberg] ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:02:23 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: The bees are just gone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The comment is often made, if you control the mites, the virus issues are not a problem. How then, do we explain new reports that we have received from long-term, experienced beekeepers in Hawaii, who are also seeing what looks like CCD? Presumably, mites don't occur in Hawaii. Jerry


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:28:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: the demise of beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, I see Steiner's writtings still cause fear. Can you imagine the roar back in the days of WW 1 and model T's. The below is only related to beekeeping to maybe show insight into the mind of a Rudolf Steiner. Steiner lectured on bees often. I grew up close to Cassadaga, Florida. There is no exit off Interstate 4 for Cassadaga. Those people wish to be left alone. They were good neighbors and it has always upset me when people would drive through their small town throwing rocks or shooting the place up. Of course the same was common back then in the Negro section of the town I grew up. A childhood friends mother was a Spiritualist. I was always amazed when we returned form playing in the area she could tell us every place we had been and what we had done before we could tell her. Hollywood distorts mediums for drama but I have got friends in police work ( Kansas City homicide detectives) which use mediums on a regular basis in cases without clues. Mary Binklemeyer was the medium used the most in Kansas City. I met her once and she is a devoted Christian woman which reminded me of my grandmother. All she needed to put herself in touch with the problem was a piece of clothing of the missing person or be in the place the crime happened. Many leads have been given by these people to police agencies. bob "what we don't know is so vast it makes what we do know seem absurd" -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:53:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: Wild Bees Reject Genetically Engineered Crop -- NOT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >...i don't think you are correct (unless i read the study wrong). it >isn't that the fields are "roundup ready", it's that they spray >the "roundup ready" fields with....roundup, killing all the weeds >and border plants. I think that item is included in the list of factors I presented, so please explain a little more which part was incorrect. >...as someone said before here...there would have >to be a very differant study to determine if any of this is due to >being "roundup ready", or if it just has to do with actually using >roundup. Actually I said that, but my comments were not just restricted to Roundup Ready(tm), but to the whole bunch of hybrids designed for use with weed sprays, including Liberty Link, etc. I am not sure which hybrids were examined in the study. Possibly a range. I would hope so. >-- allen dick wrote: >>The paper describes a significant pollination deficit in Round-Up >>Ready fields arising from fewer pollinators (~1.5 times greater >>yield compared to a coventional field and ~6 times greater compared >>to an organic field). Actually, I did not say that, Adony did, and I quoted him, then added: "Thanks for pointing this out. It is easy to miss, but the implications for beekeepers struggling to make ends meet is enormous." When I wrote that last sentence and left it at that, I wondered if I should have spelled it out further, but assumed (there is that word again) that beekeepers would get what Adony and I both saw, namely that there is that there appears to be an exploitable pollination deficiency in the predominant canola crops, and I will reiterate what Adony said here: "What does a 'pollination deficit' mean in the context of this study?... Overall GM seedpods had around 6 fewer seeds per seedpod when open-pollinated compared to being supplementally pollinated..." That is HUGE. Consider this: from http://www.canola-council.org/soilmoisture.aspx, the normal number of pods in an average pod can be assumed to be roughly -- for our purposes -- in the range of 15-20. If this is true, then six additional seeds per pod amount to a 30% to 40% increase in production! Or six less, an equally impressive reduction. If adding honey bees to a canola crop can increase yields this much, and our reading of the study implies that, then just think of the pollination opportunities right in your back yard! (mine, anyhow). Can beekeepers get paid for canola pollination if this proves out? That was what Adony was hinting at. Of course, we have to consider if more seeds in a pod might be offset by fewer mature pods, or smaller seed -- maybe the plants can only crank out so much seed mass each? -- but that is fodder for another study. someone needs to get on that right now! Also, the relationship between beekeepers and neighbours is often delicate. We depend on them for locations year around, and also tolerance for yellow spots on cars and garden furniture, bees in feed troughs and stray swarms. Can we ask them for money? Further, although we have always known that bees can increase canola yields, it is also suspected that bees can spread canola maladies, so beekeepers in Alberta, at least, have shied away from promoting canola pollination except for production of hybrid seed, where it is essential. Now, if this study is correct, and bees can increase canola yields by this much (hard to believe), then we are in a situation comparable to alfalfa production years ago, before leafcutters were introduced, where the beekeeper got half the alfalfa seed crop, just for pollinating. Not to say that such a high return could be expected, but in these days of low returns from honey, any additional income could make the difference between surviving and having an auction. (I just received 5 auction fliers in the mail -- the most I've seen in other years is 2) Something to think about. --------------------- I've been experimenting with posting from the web interface (the archives) to BEE-L, and have learned that, although I can get a password on the web, I am not actually subscribed to BEE-L and thus cannot post until without first subscribing the same email address I use for the web login, using email. In other words, if you are reading on the web and cannot post, then send an email to LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu saying only SUBSCRIBE BEE-L YOUR NAME Send from the same email address as you log onto the archives, and of course, use your own name in place of "YOUR NAME" Then you should be able to post! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:44:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: The demise of beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Again, I think it is useful to keep a picture in mind of how the “domestic” honey bee evolved in nature. Because I think the honey bee is more closely defined by this than by the things that man has introduced into the equation in what is a fairly short period of time in evolutionary terms. What strategies has the species developed to ensure its success, and to deal with problems such as parasites and communicable diseases. What are the dispersal mechanisms, and what are all the advantages that these mechanisms convey? What are all the specific survival benefits that are served by the unique way that bees breed in nature? When you really get to looking at it you are struck by what a complex set of interrelationships go into constituting the honey bee species. And you can’t see what a honey bee is, in its naturally occurring condition, without seeing as much detail as you possibly can of the environment that it chooses under those conditions. Once you have sort of grocked all you can of that, then you look at the situations we humans put bees in, and you can begin to see where some of the problems we are having with what we are trying to do with them are coming from. Also, if you really do understand the complexity we are dealing with here, you might be a little more skeptical, as I am, about whether breeding techniques will be the silver bullet that some think. Again this is not to say that any level of human exploitation of honey bees is detrimental to the species. Bees have used us to their advantage to a large extent. And as far as other forms of animal husbandry go, the same basic principle applies. They are also having their problems as is agriculture as a whole. And now it seems cloning is entering the picture, and I can say for certain that limb will not support the weight of the livestock industry and the weight of an ever shifting microbial world. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:21:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ted_Hancock?= Subject: Re: Wild Bees Reject Genetically Engineered Crop -- NOT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I attended a presentation by someone from SFU on this topic several years ago. I am assuming it was Lora Morandin and have pasted the abstact below. I cannot quote Lora given the time that has passed since I heard her presentation but ..... I remember her research seemed to suggest that an organic farmer could make more money by leaving an uncultivated area in the centre of his crop. ( I believe she suggested 160 acres uncultivated for 480 acres cultivated). This uncultivated parcel of land, free of pesticides and growing a mixture of native plants, would act as a nursery for wild pollinators. The theory being that the increase in wild pollinators would act to increase yields in the surrounding crops, hence profits. People seem to interpret this research in two different ways. One view is that we can best produce food by nuking a crop with pesticides to kill the weeds (and local pollinators), then bring in our nice healthy honey bees to do the pollination. Or we can try and limit pesticide use and encourage the growth of wild pollinators to help with the job. The 64 million dollar question seems to be what system is safe and sustainable? I expect further research will present some compromise solutions. A food production system that kills most wild insects may not be somewhere that honeybees can thrive in the long term. The only concern amongst many beekeepers in this debate seems to be how much money they can make in their short lives. I think there are many other factors to consider, not that I don't like money. Ted Value Language contributor.author Morandin, Lora en date.accessioned 2006- 03-17 - date.available 2006-03-17 - date.issued 2005 en identifier.uri http://hdl.handle.net/1892/2386 - description Thesis (Ph.D.) - Biological Sciences Department - Simon Fraser University en description.abstract Research in agriculture often focuses on development of new technologies rather than on potential environmental impacts. Pollinators, primarily bees, are essential to agriculture, providing significant yield benefit in over 66% of crop species. Currently, dramatic losses of managed honey bee pollinators in North America along with suspected world-wide losses of wild pollinators are focusing research attention on an impending but still poorly documented pollination crisis. Essential questions include: How important are wild bees to crop production? Are current agricultural practices harming pollinator populations? Can agricultural methods be modified in ways that promote pollinators and food production? In this thesis I examine the interaction between modern agriculture and wild bees through 1) laboratory experiments on effects of new genetically modified (GM), systemic, and bio-pest control products on bumble bee (Bombus spp.) health and foraging ability, and 2) field experiments on the impacts of agricultural landscapes on wild bee abundance, diversity, and pollination efficacy. I developed a new method of assessing bee foraging after exposure to pesticides that is a useful and sensitive test for sub-lethal impacts on pollinators. The GM pesticidal proteins Bt Cry1 Ac and chitinase did not negatively affect bumble bee colony or individual health or foraging ability. However, the pesticide imidacloprid in the new chloronicotinoid family of pesticides impaired bee foraging when bees were exposed to elevated doses during larval development. The new biopesticide spinosad, which is widely marketed and approved as an organic insecticide, rapidly killed bumble bee colonies at elevated doses and impaired foraging ability at realistic exposure rates. In field studies, herbicide-tolerant genetically modified canola agroecosystems had fewer wild bees than organic fields, and there were an intermediate number of bees in conventional fields. Low bee abundance in GM fields and to a lesser extent, conventional fields was associated with low seed set and reduced yields. Weed cover in fields and amount of uncultivated land around fields were positively related to bee abundance in fields. We determined that crop landscapes with uncultivated areas could have greater yield than homogenously tilled landscapes. These data can be used to design agroecosystems that benefit both conservation and crop production. Copyright remains with the author en title Wild bees and agroecosystems ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:25:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ted_Hancock?= Subject: Re: the demise of beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "The consciousness of the beehive, not of the single bee, is immensely lofty. The wisdom of this consciousness will only be attained by man in the Venus existence. Then he will have the consciousness which is necessary in order to build with a substance which he creates out of his own being." Hopefully when humans reach this stage the girls will realize males have more to offer than just fertilization. I'd be willing to contribute ear wax, navel lint and even some nose hairs if it kept me from being kicked out of the colony. I just hope we evolve with a queen more along the lines of Nicole Kiddman rather than say, Margaret Thatcher or Margaret Atwood ( "news from Venus, drones refuse to leave congregation area.") ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:31:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: The bees are just gone In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry wrote: "How then, do we explain new reports that we have received from long-term, experienced beekeepers in Hawaii, who are also seeing what looks like CCD? Presumably, mites don't occur in Hawaii." Taking the above from the perspective of an individual with very limited second hand to say the least knowledge relating to CCD, the comment raises some questions. 1. How is it confirmed that a defunct colony has suffered from CCD? 2. Should the presence of the Varroa mite be searched for in the Hawaiian Islands ? 3. If it is accepted that Varroa mites are absent in the Hawaii Islands and CCD is present, what conclusion may be publicly stated ? 4. Is it possible to state that if Varroa is absent and CCD is present, that viral infections transferred from mites to bees are no longer a causative factor in the development of CCD ? 5. Is this piece of new information welcome or a complicating factor to those investigating CCD ? I do note that it was stated that the beekeepers are looking at what looks like and not what is definitely CCD - there is a BIG difference! Regards, Peter. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:36:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: What is the average and max amount of brood in a hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was looking through my hives and was wondering if anybody knows tha normal amount of brood + eggs that one would find in a hive in springtime conditions. What would the maximum? I have seen one with about 1000 square inches in one of my few hives thats a double-this is all brood and all aggs. Didnt see much in the archives. Any informed comments appreciated. Thanks John Horton ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:50:52 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: The demise of beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Once you have sort of grocked all you can of that, then you look at the > situations we humans put bees in, and you can begin to see where some of > the problems we are having with what we are trying to do with them are > coming from. You are absolutely right. The problems we see are *our* problems, not theirs. The bees have a long history of successfully solving their own problems. I doubt that will change. (But maybe they won't solve ours -- that is up to us). ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:52:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: What is the average and max amount of brood in a hive In-Reply-To: <003c01c765d9$367ae200$5ce84cd8@HortonFamily> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, Accepting that most beekeeping and colony condition is governed by local environmental factors, an indication of your location would be beneficial. Then, perhaps somebody could help you with the information you are searching for. Here in southern Manitoba at this time of the year, the maximum would be a few square centimetres. Regards, Peter Central Southern Manitoba Canada ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:54:45 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: the demise of beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A childhood friends mother was a Spiritualist. I was always amazed when we > returned form playing in the area she could tell us every place we had > been and what we had done before we could tell her. .. Now I can see how you have been able to solve the CCD problem from the comfort of your armchair. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:33:56 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: CCD in Hawaii In-Reply-To: <45F7424B.3040609@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd be interested in who is reporting CCD like losses in Hawaii, which island and to what extent. I manage (or mismanage) 120 hives on Oahu and haven't seen any hive losses that I can't seem to explain. I've asked our coop members to pay more attention to any hives that they lose, to do a post mortem and not just write the hive off. I've not seen signs of mites in any of my hives. Howard ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:57:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: Wild Bees Reject Genetically Engineered Crop -- NOT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >...her research seemed to suggest that an organic farmer could make more money by leaving an uncultivated area in the centre of his crop. ( I believe she suggested 160 acres uncultivated for 480 acres cultivated)... Interesting idea. I'm not sure how it would work in practise, though, assuming crops are rotated, many pollinators don't travel far from their homes (like ants, some flies, and leafcutters). Also, many crops in North America -- more than beekeepers like to think -- don't need (and some do not want) uncontrolled insect pollination. Organic apples, for example, have to hand-thinned if over-pollinated. * * * * While discussing the influence of honey bees pollination on food production, let me say that I'd be *most* interested to see the data underlying the oft-repeated claim that 1/3 of our food requires bee pollination. I wonder if that estimate is by plant species count, by bulk tonnage, by dollar value, or ...by what measure? I also wonder also how many of those foods are staples, and how many are non-essential. Are crops which do not need (or even want) pollination in the production fields, but which depend on pollination for their seed crops (maybe 1/100th the acreage). After all, we all know that 96.859% of all statistics are made up on the spot. Is this one among them? * * * * Going back to the the question of potential yield increase on GMO fields were were discussing in an earlier message. I have since been wondering if pollination is often the *limiting* factor in canola yield, since moisture, temperatures, available nutrients, plant density and other factors can have a large and limiting influence on the pods per plant, seeds per pod, oil content, protein content, and seed fill. Some of them are mentioned at the site I gave as a reference last time. And, going on to something else since we often quote studies here like scripture (which is another topic)... We tend to forget that studies are just studies, and although a particular study may well examine and analyse a specific situation and point to trends or influences, studies often as not fail to prove anything conclusive. Subsequent extrapolating and applying the findings requires careful consideration of the many things that may not have been present or which may have been controlled. Besides, sometimes the same study, when repeated, gives different, conflicting or non-confirming results. Moreover, a study that shows a clear trend, may not show the scatter. Scatter, while often ignored in presentations, is important in real life -- especially if you just happen to be an outlier -- a specific instance that falls far above or below the line. Lastly, and unfortunately, sometimes -- too often, maybe always -- part of the data has been massaged or discarded. The devil is in the details. Caveat emptor. * * * * I finally discovered how to subscribe and unsubscribe and change BEE-L settings from the web interface! Although the "Subscriber's Corner" does not work, the link from an icon at the top of each post does work, at least when logged in. I've been trying to have the LISTSERV send me copies of my own posts for along time, with no success. I found a setting error when I accessed the options from the subscribe/unsubscribe icon, and hopefully rectified the problem. Also, when posting from the web interface, I recommend either writing in notepad, then pasting into the box on the page, or clicking the pane, selecting all, then copying rthe article and pastingh it into notepad and saving locally before pressing send. Otherwise, if you web connection happens to have died, all you work will be lost! Also check the whole page and the recipients before sending. By default, the receients box seems to be blank! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:10:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Wild Bees Reject Genetically Engineered Crop -- NOT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ted Hancock wrote: >The new biopesticide spinosad, which is widely marketed and approved as an organic insecticide, rapidly killed bumble bee colonies at elevated doses and impaired foraging ability at realistic exposure rates. I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but it appears that "Organic Gardners" may be offering their own hazards to bees: * * * Spinosad: An Insecticide to Make Organic Gardeners Smile By Lynn Rawe County Extension Agent-Horticulture Texas Cooperative Extension in Bexar County Still looking for an environmentally-friendly insecticide that won't harm beneficial insects, but still sticks it to pesky pests? You may need to look no further. Spinosad (pronounced spin OH sid) is a relatively new organic insecticide that quickly and safely controls a variety of caterpillar, beetle and thrips pests. Spinosad is especially effective on caterpillars and thrips. If you're a flower gardener, your ears should perk up on this one. Thrips and caterpillars are the two most bothersome pest groups on annual and perennial flowers. Perhaps the best thing about products containing spinosad is the safety factor for use around people, animals, and beneficial insects. Spinosad is safe even to use around adult butterflies and many insect predators and parasites. * * * Safety: Has a "Caution" signal word, which implies reduced risk to applicators and workers. Studies on spinosad show very low impact to mammals, the environment, birds and predatory beneficials. However, spinosad may be toxic to bees. (honey bee LC50 = 11.5 ppm) Applications to areas where bees are actively foraging should be avoided. Dow AgroSciences LLC. Conserve SC InfoSheet. Indianapolis IN. * * * The topical acute activity of spinosad against honeybees places spinosad in the highly toxic to bees category of the EPA. Gary D. Thompson, Scott H. Hutchins and Thomas C. Sparks Dow AgroSciences LLC ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:28:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Wild Bees Reject Genetically Engineered Crop -- NOT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, Allen said: >We tend to forget that studies are just studies, and although a particular study may well examine and analyze a specific situation and point to trends or influences, studies often as not fail to prove anything conclusive. I think the Disappearing disease fell in the above description but instead of the researchers saying it was perhaps a witch hunt they simply let the quest for the problem disappear into beekeeping history ( after around five years of all of us waiting for their conclusion). The A.I. Root publishers speak of the disappearing disease ( ABC XYZ & Pests & diseases ) but hard to find in the Dadant books. Hopefully todays current research will provide answers to the CCD die off. If not maybe we will learn new information on the old honey bee problems. It has been said that more has been written about bees than all other insects combined! Bob Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:49:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: The bees are just gone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does CCD affect AHB? Chris (thinking that there's yet another TLA to remember) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:24:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: What is the average and max amount of brood in a hive In-Reply-To: <003c01c765d9$367ae200$5ce84cd8@HortonFamily> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 13-Mar-07, at 8:36 PM, John & Christy Horton wrote: > I was looking through my hives and was wondering if anybody knows > tha normal amount of brood + eggs that one would find in a hive in > springtime conditions. > What would the maximum? > > I have seen one with about 1000 square inches in one of my few > hives thats a double-this is all brood and all aggs. > Hi John & all I assume that you are located in the southern US. I am located in southern Ontario Canada. We are in the middle of a thaw(+14C = 57F and sunny). My bees were out for their first cleansing flight yesterday. Our snow dropped from 30" to about 12". This weekend will be down to -4C(25F). Obviously our weather, climate and bee season is very different than yours. Your question can only be answered by your close neighbours unless you give your location and other bee related facts. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44 north 80 west ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:46:36 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Wild Bees Reject Genetically Engineered Crop -- NOT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > While discussing the influence of honey bees pollination on food > production, let me say that I'd be *most* interested to see the data > underlying the oft-repeated claim that 1/3 of our food requires bee > pollination. Hi Allen McGregor was the source of the quote: 'it appears that perhaps one-third of our total diet is dependent, directly or indirectly, upon insect-pollinated plants'. See here for more details: http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/book/econ.html I looked at the FAO figures, and it is clear that the big crops are wind or self-pollinated - but that large numbers of crop species (many more than a third) are insect pollinated. I'll paste the relevant text and table from a book chapter below - with apologies for the table formatting. all the best Gavin. From: Ramsay, G (2005) Pollen dispersal vectored by wind or insects. In: GM Crops and Gene Flow, Eds GM Poppy and MJ Wilkinson. Blackwell Scientific Press, Oxon. Although the world’s most important food crops are cereals, clearly adapted for wind-mediated pollination, a very large number of other crops require insects for efficient pollination and seed or fruit production. McGregor (1976) estimates that about one third of all food consumed is attributable, directly or indirectly, to insect pollination. In Table 1, most of the crops listed in the top 51 require, or benefit from, insect pollination, at least during the seed production phase. In most cases the primary insect pollinators are bees. As agricultural production has intensified, populations of native pollinators have declined, due to both habitat loss and the use of pesticides. Bees have been noted to be pollinators for 77% of 82 species commodities, and are the most important known pollinator for 48% of them (Prescott-Allen and Prescott-Allen 1990, Delaplane and Mayer 2000). Various figures have been derived for the value to the economy of this pollination effort. In the US, the value of honey bee pollination was placed at US$9 billion in 1989 (Robinson et al 1989). For the EU, the value of honey bee pollination was placed at €4.3 billion in 1989 (Delaplane and Mayer 2000). Such a high dependence on managed and wild bee and other insect pollinators for sustainable cropping requires more than managing crop agronomy effectively. An integrated approach to the whole system is required, ensuring that introduced, managed pollinators are not damaged by agricultural practices, and that wild pollinators together with the surrounding habitats which support them are maintained for current and future generations. Table 1. World crops: their pollination requirements and production in 2003. Crop 1. Production Harvested product Pollination 2. Mt x 1,000 cereals Maize 638.0 seed wind Rice, paddy 589.1 seed self (wind) Wheat 556.3 seed self (wind) Barley 141.5 seed self (wind) Sorghum 59.6 seed wind Millet 29.8 seed wind Oats 26.3 seed self (wind) Rye 14.9 seed wind Triticale 10.2 seed self (wind) roots, tubers and vegetables Potatoes 310.8 root/tuber n/a 3. Cassava 189.1 root/tuber n/a Sweet potatoes 121.9 root/tuber n/a Cabbages 66.0 vegetative insect Onions, dry 52.5 root/tuber insect Yams 39.9 root/tuber n/a Carrots 23.3 root/tuber insect Lettuce 20.8 vegetative self (insect) Cauliflower 15.9 vegetative insect Garlic 13.7 root/tuber n/a Spinach 11.9 vegetative wind (insect) fruit Tomatoes 113.3 fruit self (insect) Watermelons 91.8 fruit insect Bananas 69.3 fruit parthenocarpic Grapes 60.9 fruit insect 4. Oranges 60.0 fruit insect Apples 58.0 fruit insect Cucumbers 39.6 fruit insect Plantains 33.0 fruit insect Eggplants 29.0 fruit insect Melons 26.7 fruit insect Mangoes 25.6 fruit insect Capsicum 23.2 fruit insect Other citrus 21.0 fruit insect Pumpkins, sqshs 19.0 fruit insect Pears 17.2 fruit insect Peaches/nectrns 14.8 fruit insect Pineapples 14.6 fruit parthenocarpic 5. Lemons and lmes 12.5 fruit insect Plums 10.1 fruit insect grain legumes Beans, dry 19.0 seed self (insect) Peas, dry 10.2 seed self oil and industrial crops Sugar cane 1333.3 vegetative wind Sugar beets 233.5 vegetative wind (insect) Soybeans 189.2 seed self Oil palm fruit 143.4 fruit insect and wind Seed cotton 56.1 fruit insect Coconuts 52.9 seed insect Rapeseed 36.1 seed self and insect Groundnuts 35.7 seed self Sunflower 27.7 seed insect Olives 17.2 fruit wind and self (insect) 1. Of the 144 commodities monitored by FAO only those with production of at least 10,000 Mt are presented here. 2. Where a vegetative part of the plant is harvested, this refers to pollination during seed production. 3. n/a - not applicable, propagated and harvested vegetatively, although potatoes are grown from true seed in some parts of the world. 4. This and other fruits may have parthenocarpic forms. 5. Wild and seeded forms are pollinated by hummingbirds. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:16:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: The bees are just gone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:31:07 -0500, Peter Dillon wrote: >1. How is it confirmed that a defunct colony has suffered from CCD? That may be the crux of the problem with the whole concept of CCD. How can you expect to use a survey, phone call or email to poll a diverse group of people like beekeepers to inquire if they are seeing the same behaviour? As we say here alot on Bee-L "all beekeeping is local". IMO prefacing the survery with the title "bee loss" or something equally suggestive makes for a biased audience plus now the impact of the news hype. I mean would our health system or government poll people if they thought we might have the Bird Flu? I think not... Its especially tough to make a case too when you have no dead bodies....... the bees just apperently disappear into a Twilight Zone of sorts where no one knows where they go..........this seems to be the major symptom of CCD......... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:24:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: What is the average and max amount of brood in a hive-Clarification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the replys....Let me clarify what I was trying to say but probably didnt make clear at all: There comes a particular point in time in the beehive where there exists the maximum brood/eggs of any time of the year...this will be later/earlier of course depending on the environmental conditions etc. In your experience or knowledge, what is the maximum amount of brood/eggs (inches or cm. squared) that exists at that point in time...also what is a "rough" average in your experience for the amount of brood/eggs at that same point in time. I know the second figure will be a rough guess..thats OK....However I would think the first figure would be fairly well known. I just read an article by Steve Tabor( sp?) in ABJ saying he found a maximum of much as 900 in2 of sealed brood in certain locations...apparently he didnt include eggs in his estimate. Thanks for your replys again. John Horton ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************