From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:54:45 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, FUZZY_PRESCRIPT,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0725482B1 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFhrpO016524 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:17 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0703D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 247125 Lines: 5511 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:32:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: World Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron Phipps has written this article - interesting reading to say the least! http://www.americanhoneyproducers.org/Articles/3-8-07%20CPNA%20Honey%20Market%20Report.pdf It maybe found on the AHP web site. http://www.americanhoneyproducers.org Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:30:02 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Both Bob and Waldemar asked about queen wing clipping in organic rules. EU organic rules are not only made to guarantee a clean product witout residues. Sustainable production and allowing animals their natural behaviour are important too. Organic cows and chickens must be allowed to go to pastute. Pigs have moore room than normally. I guess the wing clipping was denied because of these reasons. I clipped all before but stopped last year. I think that if I would clip the wings from just some queens and would get cought, all my honey would be dropped from organic status. I used to clip because of breeding work. If paint faded away I still knew from clipped wing that the queen was the one I put into the hive. Sustainability shows in demanding only wooden hives, no plastic boxes. Inspection cost depend on how big the operation is. Normally 200 - 500 euro/ year. PPM value are not set for oxalic formic and thymol. Organic rules say that these and some others can be used for varroa if national laws allow them to be used, which is the case in Finland. Ari Seppälä Finland ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:24:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Moisture and homosote In-Reply-To: <000e01c7666e$f976d9e0$2abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I really do not want to open the ventilation wars which seem to have a certain periodicity on this list. For me it is a "to each his own" issue. I believe much of the issue depends on the climate in your area. You can get by with upper or no ventilation depending on where you are. Here in New England, we have high humidity just about all year long, so moisture in the hive will be higher than other areas. We also have a more constant cold with less warming during the winter. On the other hand, I know of colonies that were buried under snow and survived. So I would be careful, as in all beekeeping, not to take too much from our techniques if you live in an area with shorter and more extreme weather cycles and drier air. All beekeeping is local. I use upper ventilation and a homosote board over the inner cover. The board absorbs excess water and the bees use it as a water source throughout the winter. If you take off the top cover in winter you will see a ring of moisture on the back side of the board. I leave it on all year long. There was a comment on bees in trees and that they did not have upper ventilation. Maybe yes and maybe no. I have seen bees in tree cavities where the entrance was a slit that ran fairly high up the tree. In any case, I think the homosote acts like the top of a tree cavity and absorbs moisture in the winter. It is then a close source of water during the winter and spring. Many now use it in Maine and it is a suggested, by experienced beekeepers, essential piece of bee equipment in Maine. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:41:18 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Moisture and homosote Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I use upper ventilation and a homosote board over the inner cover. What material is homosote board made from? >>The board absorbs excess water and the bees use it as a water source throughout the winter. Do you see bees diving into the snow on sunny, cool days in March (or April by you)? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:29:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: World Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Mr. Phipps ( CPNA International) has been making his predictions now for awhile. Some have been right and others have been way off. Kind of like the weatherman on the news. Also ( like our weathermen more correct than incorrect). Twice in the last week I brought in many pallets of boxes i did not want to get wet with the predicted rain and no rain! The day no rain was predicted it poured! I do find his opinion interesting and Mr. Phipps does try to get his facts correct. Some comments from his report: " As colony collapse became more apparent, pollination fees went up to $200 per hive" Got a chuckle here. The percent which went in at the above price was so small hardly worth talking about. " more darker grades were produced creating relative scarcity of the WHITE HONEY for which Argentina is FAMOUS." Aregentine is famous for white honey? News to me! The devil is in the details in the report one might say. The short version: At the end of 2006 U.S. beekeepers had 60.5 million pounds of honey in their warehouses ( Mr. Phipps report) In 2006 U.S. packers increased imports by 50 million pounds over 2005 ( Mr. Phipps report). " Viet Nam is rapidly developing its own domestic market" Surely the above will slow the flood of honey from Viet Nam into the U.S.? Also we all know that when tiny Viet Nam was the largest importer of honey into the U.S. a few years ago the honey was originating in CHINA. REALLY IMPORTANT AND ONLY A PARAGRAPH DEVOTED TO! " Evidence of "packers blend" from China entering the country" Packers blend is 49% honey & the rest HFCS. Mr. Phipps statements concerning CCD. " Some experts believe the collapse of bee colonies maybe due to resistance by mites and viruses to tradional treatments that in turn has lead to use of new and more toxic treatments" Is CCD a new problem or simply a new version of an old problem? Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:00:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: Moisture and homosote In-Reply-To: <20070322.044210.14368.2239224@webmail23.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>What material is homosote board made from?<<<< It's packed paper. Google Homasote. Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:46:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: World Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I thought the comments about corn and corn syrup was interesting. In the midwest Atrazine is every where, soil, air at times and in the water. Expectations are for corn acreage plantings to be at an all time high this year too with the ethanol boom so the atrzine we be abundant. Researchers reports tiny amounts can affect frogs, would not tiny amounts be present in corn syrup too? So its in the honey bees' environment and then perhaps we even feed them more in the fall. At this point it may be conjecture that Atrazine is a problem for honeybees but one thing is for certain proof either way will be slippery or impossible to find anytime soon. ...I think i'll switch to liquid sucrose if I need bee feed. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:42:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically In-Reply-To: <000701c76c16$ea70f4a0$03bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "How does the organic status change when the hive has a clipped wing queen as opposed to the hive which is headed by a queen without wings clipped?" I've wondered this too. I wonder if the "rule makers" have any idea what beekeeping is all about, let alone organic beekeeping. Sometimes I think there is a great conspiracy to make the process so absurdly cumbersome we simply throw up our hands and say, "Forget about it!" Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 15:04:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:42:27 -0700, Grant Gillard wrote: >"How does the organic status change when the hive has a clipped wing queen as >opposed to the hive which is headed by a queen without wings clipped?" > If you read or particpate in organic farming publications, conferences or organizations, you would learn that in addition to the production practices there is an ethic or philosophy inherent in the organic movement. Not that I think its cruel or inhumane to clip the wings of a queen, but realize that being an organic farmer in some of the publics mind is not as simple as filling out the blanks on some form and slapping the USDA logo on your products. My guess is that the queen requirement comes from the same issue of animal care that concerns people about the feedlot approach to farming, so it could be a consumer perception, driven parameter. IMO practices like long distance migratory beekeeping also would not be consistent with an organic philiosophy as the potential effects of things like drift, stress and frequent feeding do not put the bees health first. To some people conventional, industrial farming has only the ledger in mind when decisions are made. Organic farming attempts to turn that around and put the environment and animal and human health before profits. Look around the USA and we live in a time of immense greed with little thought at times given to how we achieve our prosperity. As perhaps a reaction to that a growing number of people will only buy product/services that fit their value system and organic attempts to address that movement. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 07:30:14 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >"How does the organic status change when the hive has a clipped wing queen >as >opposed to the hive which is headed by a queen without wings clipped?" Seems illogical to me. Here another one to ponder. Here in Australia, if an organic beekeeper buys a queen from a non organic queen bee breeder and introduces it into an organic hive, then the first extraction from that hive after the introduction is not organic. However, after that it is. Wonder what impurities the queen brought with her and introduced into the honey to make that first extraction not organic? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Have a look at www.apimondia2007.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:45:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Beekeeping Organically Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Clearly there is a range of what might reasonably be considered organic beekeeping. The fact that in the E.U., no clipping of wings has been included in what is acceptable for organic labeling, I would think is the result of wide ranging views trying to reach some kind of consensus. You can bet that some people feel very strongly about what they might consider cruel and unnecessary mutilation at worst and disruptive interference in a natural process at best. For some, and apparently for the E.U. organic beekeepers, it is about the process as much as the product. One might reasonably argue that a lot of what is text book beekeeping practice or maybe industry standard practice, while not resulting in honey that is bad or un-organic, is nevertheless shortsighted when it comes to the overall health of bees and beekeeping. For example, I can see how someone might feel that swarming is an important function in the interest of honeybees as colonies and as a species, and therefore should not be aggressively suppressed, if at all. I can see a lot of eyes rolling about now, but I think it really is high time beekeepers as a whole start to look past the immediate concern for this year’s crop and start really trying to comprehend the gestalt of bees and man’s relation to bees with the goal of understanding what is not right with beekeeping these days. Reading Ari’s posts, I got the feeling that in Europe at least, there is movement in that direction. It feels like the intention at least is to establish, not only a level playing field, but a common understanding of good stewardship of and reverence for the activity as well as the products of beekeeping. The fact that all those countries, much less all those beekeepers could come together in agreement of what will be considered organically produced honey is amazing to me as an American rugged individualist. A lot of comprimising must have been done. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:03:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically - first extraction In-Reply-To: <001e01c76cc9$4947ff70$b095453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit queenbee wrote:Here another one to ponder. Here in Australia, if an organic beekeeper buys a queen from a non organic queen bee breeder and introduces it into an organic hive, then the first extraction from that hive after the introduction is not organic. However, after that it is. Simple solution Treavor. Place the queen in the hive. Next day go pull some frames of honey, extract, replace. First extraction complete within three days of queen installation. Mike in LA --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 20:07:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: STEPHEN RICE Subject: water content of honey vs wintering problems In-Reply-To: <200703211425.l2LEPQ6S016618@smtp3.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tim Arheit wrote Second, if your bees consume 60 pounds of honey over the winter, they will emit nearly 40 pounds of water (if my chemistry is correct), or about 4.7 gallons of water. Regardless of the rest of the discussion, I don't think this is right. I recall reading in Winston's "Biology of the Honey Bee" that the bees fan the nectar until the water content is about 18 percent. In other words, less than one part in five. Of 60 pounds, then, less than 15 would be water. ...just did a google on this. wikipedia article on honey says between 14 and 18 percent. so adjust water content of 60 lbs down accordingly, to maybe less than10 lbs. Not saying this may not be a problem. We've certainly had some troubles because of it, here in the great lakes triangle of southern ontario. I'm going to look into the homosote board as a means of them getting some water when they need it. I've got a hive in my yard- that I maybe ventilated too much - with about a thousand dead bees outside it in a puddle of water. She's still alive, though. stephen ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:27:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: water content of honey vs wintering problems In-Reply-To: <174125.3990.qm@web88102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit STEPHEN RICE wrote about the water produced from 60 pounds of honey. Stephen, your calculation based on only the water content of the honey omits the water created as the sugars are metabolized. Tim's calculation is right. Here's how I validated his approximation: 1. 60 pounds of honey is approximately 16% water (9.6 pounds), leaving 50.4 pounds of sugars, etc. 2. Assume some ash and round down to 50 pounds of sugars. 3. Honey is about 40% fructose, 30% glucose and 30% maltose, sucrose, etc. 4. Fructose and glucose are C6H12O6 sugars for a molecular weight of 180. 5. During metabolism, the carbons are combined with O2 and exhaled. The twelve hydrogens and 6 oxygens combine to 6 water molecules (also exhaled eventually). 6. The molecular weight of the 6 water molecules is 108 or 60% of the sugar 's molecular weight. 7. Maltose and sucrose are C12H22O11 sugars with a molecular weight of 342, producing a water weight of 198 or 57.9% of the sugar weight. 8. Multiply the 50 pounds of sugars by the sum of the fractions of each sugar times the percent of water produced and you get 29.7 pounds of water created as a result of metabolism. 9. Add the original 9.6 pounds of water content of the honey and you're at 39.3 pounds of water. Mike Rossander --------------------------------- Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 03:58:58 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?Windows-1252?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > For some, and apparently for the E.U. organic > beekeepers, it is about the process as much as the product. > The fact that all those countries, much less all those beekeepers could > >come together in agreement of what will be considered organically > >produced honey is amazing to me as an American rugged >individualist. A > lot of comprimising must have been done. Steve is quite right about compromising. But it is good to know for everyone that the rules were not made only by beekeepers. Also consumers and government officials and representatives from other organic production were at the work. Wing clipping has go a lot of attention. I can easily understand why it is in the rules. Like Steve said many feel it as cruel and unnecessary mutilation. Not even all beekeepers are willing to do it for this reason expecially in the hobby sector. Trevor told about getting normal queens to organic beehives in Australia. EU rules say organic queens must be prferred, but allow 10 % of queens/ year to come from normal production. If more then the hives receiving queens are not organic anymore for one season. Clear comnpromise. The aim for limiting the animal material is like in the other organic farming. Organic chickens must in EU be born from organic eggs, also the same for pigs etc. Even when growing carrots or grass the tiny seeds must come from organic production ( can be normal if organic seeds do not exist on the market) . The idea is to have reliability in the eyes of the consumers. The whole production chain must be organic to be trusted by consumers.. I myself am not a true beliver in organic so that I would only use organic products, but prefer food without residues. And also food produced by minimum environmental effects. In shop organic lable is the only way to find easily food like this unless you know more about the producer. Also in Finland it is very dfficult for many beekeepers to understand the organic rules because they are not logical when loking only from residues. I advice them to think the rules as a moral code a bit like religion. I think it is very good from the marketing point that organic rules also include things about animal welfare and sustainability. In Finland about 2,5 % of beekeeping is organic, but the number is coming up. Ari Seppälä Finland ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:20:51 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: water content of honey vs wintering problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Hi Mike and All Much of the water generated by the metabolism of sugars will be lost as moist air circulates and escapes through the entrance or small spaces around the boxes. The remarkable warmth generated by the spring brood nest must be a potent factor in the removal of moisture from the hive. So, although a colony will be generating and releasing prodigious quantities of water, there must surely still be a considerable deficit at this time of year in many hives, as rapid access is required to essentially dehydrated stores. It is clear that bees do go out looking for water, and at this time of year it may be a risky activity. So - what about these absorbent boards? Do they greatly restrict flights out for water? all the best Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:17:40 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Here in Australia, if an organic beekeeper buys a queen from a non organic queen bee breeder and introduces it into an organic hive, then the first extraction from that hive after the introduction is not organic. However, after that it is. You are right about questioning this logic. Also, how do they *control* the drifting of bees from in-organic hives or the airborne pollution from industrial sources? Grant it, remote and isolated areas will minimize both but will not eliminate them. Both travel long distances. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:14:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Great book on bees, FREE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline You can download a PDF version of this 100+ page booklet "Beekeeping Basics" from MAAREC go to: http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/GenMgmt.html -- pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:54:47 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > You are right about questioning this logic. Also, how do they > *control* the drifting of bees from in-organic hives or the airborne > pollution from industrial sources? Grant it, remote and isolated > areas will minimize both but will not eliminate them. Both travel > long distances. There is no end to the list of demands if organic is defined maximally close to natural state and allowed 0 % potential for any residues. The line has to be drawn into somewhere. The organic customers don't normally know where the line exactly is but trust that the line made by experts makes product better. No or less residues, sustainability and animal welfare. Careful robbing of selected wild hives without bee clothes and metal/ plastic tools or buckets in remote parts of Africa could fill almost all demands. But this kind of demands are not practical. I strongly recommend beekeepers to try getting into the meetings where local demands are made. Beekeepers need to be there to see that the rules come out in such way that it is possible to produce honey accconding to them. I think that all countires should be able to produce organic honey for their own consumers. Ari Seppälä Finland ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:36:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: New Hivastan from Central Life Sciences Receives Section 18 Approval MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New Hivastan from Central Life Sciences Receives Section 18 Approval Schaumburg, IL, March 19, 2007 - The Environmental Protection Agency has granted Section 18 clearance for Hivastan, a powerful new weapon to help beekeepers protect their bees against Varroa mites, and in the process, become more profitable. Because Hivastan's active ingredient is not used elsewhere for Varroa mites, it eliminates some of the resistance issues that have plagued other treatments," explains Mark Taylor, business manager for Central Life Sciences. "Once it's applied, there's no need to go back to the hive to remove a used-up strip, so it's less labor intensive." Hivastan contains fenpyroximate, a highly effective miticide, that has been formulated into a "patty" delivery system. During testing with the U.S. Department of Agriculture, Hivastan provided up to six weeks of no-mess, easy-to-use Varroa control. When used as directed, bees transfer the active ingredient throughout the colony while they work to remove the product (which they perceive as a foreign substance) from the hive. To provide maximum control, Central Life Sciences recommends treating all infested bee colonies with Hivastan twice a year - prior to the first honey flow in the spring, and again in the fall after the last honey flow. "Varroa mite control requires integrated pest management," says Taylor. "Current alternatives are proving to be merely temporary solutions, and rotational products like Hivastan are necessary to control Varroa populations." According to the USDA, the number of honey bees and managed beehives is down so much that production of pollinated plants has fallen by about a third in the last two years. Varroa mites, a type of parasite which came to the United States in the 1980s, are considered the primary culprits for wiping out the honey bee population. Hivastan is available in a 30-patty tub. For more information call 1-800-248-7763. To find out if Hivastan has been approved in your state, please contact your local Department of Agriculture. To find contact infomation for your state, link up to http://www.beeculture.com/content/sci_links.cfm and scroll towards the bottom of the page, where every state department of Ag. is listed. About Central Life Sciences Apiary is part of the Central Life Sciences strategic business unit of Central Garden & Pet (NASDAQ: CENT). Central Life Sciences is dedicated to creating healthier environments and making life better for people, plants and companion animals around the world. As inventors of insect growth technology more than 30 years ago, Central Life Sciences pioneered biorational pest control: using the insect's chemistry as a means to reduce pest populations. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:40:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Hivastan to be allowed in New York State MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hivastan (fenpyroximate) has just received an Emergency Exemption from Registration (Section 18) from EPA for use in honey bee colonies for the control Varroa destructor. Dr. Calderone (Cornell University) has informed me that New York DEC will be providing a label next week that will allow NYS beekeepers to purchase this product. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 07:53:31 -0600 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: Honey Prices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All, I am currently looking for persons willing to provide honey pricing information for an electronic newsletter that will be published bi-weekly. What I need is the price you are selling 12 oz. bears, 1-lb, 2-lb and 4 or 5 lb. containers for and a grocer's brand or two, hopefully one's that are regional suppliers but if national packers, that would be o.k.. Prices from other countries are invited and all contributors will receive credit and a subscription to the newsletter. Looking forward to hearing from you. My email is tuckerb@hit.net. Tim Tucker ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:50:41 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: New Hivastan from Central Life Sciences Receives Section 1 8 Approval Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Hivastan contains fenpyroximate, a highly effective miticide, that has been formulated into a "patty" delivery system. This stuff appears to be somewhat safe for humans (http://www.inchem.org/documents/jmpr/jmpmono/v95pr06.htm) in small amounts. I use OA to effectively control varroa and don't plan to use the new chem. I assume they have tested how much of this chem ends up in honey and it's effect on the queen's viability. Is there a link where one can view the results? Thanks, Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:23:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: New Hivastan from Central Life Sciences Receives Section 1 8 Approval MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> I assume they have tested how much of this chem (Hivastan) ends up in honey and it's effect on the queen's viability. Fenpyroximate doesn't appear to get into honey, but it is lipophilic and, to quote the company rep, "very stable." This raises issues of comb contamination. Long term studies on sublethal effects on the bees have not been completed. Fenpyroximate is also available as an ag formulation, so we can expect commercial beekeepers to start applying it with shop towels, etc, soon. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 06:33:52 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Molokai Meli, LLC" Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically In-Reply-To: <012101c76d31$4f257b30$0300000a@ari71aa1cf24c5> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I strongly recommend beekeepers to try getting into the meetings where > local demands are made. Beekeepers need to be there to see that the > rules come out in such way that it is possible to produce honey > accconding to them. I think that all countires should be able to > produce organic honey for their own consumers. I agree with this. We have been able to positively (for the beekeepers) impact and change our local organic certification requirements. There are other requirements that no one seems to really have the answer to what constitutes the "organic benefit" of the ruling, but the requirements stand anyway. We have built our apiary from 100% feral hives (pretty natural and organic, I would think). Even though we use nothing inorganic in our capture methods, we are required to show documentation that we have maintained these hives for at least nine months before we are able to claim their honey is certified organic. The reasoning is that we had no control over the inputs to the hive prior to our capture (someone may have come along and tried to poison them). They are assuming that after nine months of maintenance using organic methods, any harmful substance would have worn off. We are, however, able to place these in our apiaries next to certified organic hives. Be active with your organic certification board and share your knowledge. No one on our board has beekeeping experience, so they welcome our input. ~Molokai Meli producers of certified organic "Premium Silky" white honey ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:39:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Tim Tucker Honey Price Newsletter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Tim has a great idea and I'd like to be among those contributing. That said, before contributing I'd like to know some more about Mr. Tucker in terms of his background, what he does for a living, etc. I'd also like to make two suggestions: 1. Include speciality products such as cut comb, Ross Rounds, creamed/spun honey, etc. 2. Reports on prices should include some notation about how many reporters are contributing to the data (by category reported). I am reasonably certain that in some cases the data reported by ABJ and Bee Culture is 'gamed', meaning that there are very few reporters (for a section of the country) and those reporting are deliberatly misstating prices because it best fits their objectives relative to buying or selling. There should be no reporting unless there are some minimum number of reporters for a section of the country, by variety, and very high or very low prices should be thrown out of the averages. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:48:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: water content of honey vs wintering problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The 'old timers' often did not know 'why' something worked, but they sure learned what works and what does not. Around here, many beekeepers who learned from 'old timers' use homosote boards for wintering. They come off the hives soaking wet, in mid to late April. They are kept in the barn for the summer and in the fall go onto the hives weighing 50% or less of their April weight. The claim is that the boards accomplish two things: (1) a means of wicking the water so it does not condense and drip onto the bees, (2) a source of water when bees cannot fly. I believe #1, and not #2. Despite believing #1 I also note that hives kept by there beekeepers usually are not at all bee tight and have lots of places for water vapor to escape. Thanks to Mike R. for a facinating discussion of the amount of water generated by metabolism. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:30:52 -0600 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: Honey Prices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Too Lloyd and All: Hello Lloyd, Thanks for the willingness to contribute. I guess you don't remember me but we met a few years back when you were our guest speaker at our Kansas Honey Producers meeting and I was the President of the KHPA then, who perhaps fumblingly introduced you on a couple of occasions. I served as president for four years and last October became the past president thankfully. I have served the KHPA as editor of the Cappings for 6 years and have contributed articles on the Youth Scholarship program last June. This program was presented to the Foundation for the Preservation of the Honey Bee by myself with the help of Marion Ellis and John Talbert and was adopted as a national program by the foundation to help initiate new young persons to our adventures in beekeeping. I have kept bees since 1992 when, after 14 years of killing and removing bees from buildings (operated an exterminating company which I sold in 1996), I attempted to keep two hives alive and raise honey. I hate to admit it but I am still killing bees. But this winter was a good one to us and out of 180 or so hives, I only picked up 6 deadouts, two of which starved to death. I am currently serving my second two year term as board representative of the Hobbyist and Sideliner group for the American Beekeeping Federation and serve as chairman of the membership committee. I will send you a copy of the newsletter in the next day or so as I am finishing up the last page. It is not just a "honey prices" newsletter but that will be a big focus in the coming issues. I am a sideliner beekeeper and manage an 1800 acre ranch two miles from our ranch where we produce registered bulls and pairs for sale. We sell our production to about 25 stores and gift shops across southern Kansas and do 4 farmers markets each week as well where we retail as much honey, honey products and produce as possible: Tuckerbee's Blue Ribbon Honey. Thanks for the great idea of including the cut comb honey and rounds. I will be glad to include that or any other ideas. Hope this provides you with enough info. If not let me know. Tim ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:36:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Charles_Duquette?= Subject: Test for fermentation of honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a half dozen 5 gallon pails of honey that have been stored for about two years. I was wondering if there is a way to test for fermentation before I liquify and bottle. Is fermented honey safe to feed to my bees? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 19:26:03 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Zerovar In-Reply-To: <31007222.1174671053119.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Someone who know what Zerovar is? \vov ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 18:15:45 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: New Hivastan from Central Life Sciences Receives Section 1 8 Approval MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Hivastan contains fenpyroximate, a highly effective miticide, that > has been formulated into a "patty" delivery system. Given the current problems with CCD, has anyone considered the effect of adding another chemical to the mix currently in hives? (If anyone really knows what chemicals are already in many hives!) Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:50:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey Prices Comments: To: Tim Tucker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have been a friend of Tim's for many years. We both think the newsletter will be of benefit to beekeepers. At times I have sent bee magazine articles to Tim to look over and give his opinion for which I am grateful. I have helped plan his newsletter and plan to contribute about bees and beekeeping from time to time. I will be providing honey prices from the Kansas City area for the newsletter. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:50:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bill bartlett Subject: ethanol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Beefolk, Has anyone tried making ethanol ( hooch/white lightning ) from honey? Bill Bee ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:35:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: water content of honey vs wintering problems In-Reply-To: <20070323082051.76915.qmail@web86206.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin Ramsay wrote: > It is clear that bees do go out looking for water, and at this time > of year it may be a risky activity. So - what about these absorbent > boards? Do they greatly restrict flights out for water? I've used homosote boards for 2 years and they clearly absorb water as evidenced by staining and slight warping, but mine never seem to be wet. Maybe that is in part because the bees are using the retained water? I was checking my hives today- the first time this spring- and when I lifted the homosote boards off, there were usually about a teaspoon full of bees clustered on it directly above the hole in the inner cover. Were they gathering water? I don't know. Contrary to Bill Truesdell's experience, my boards seem invariably dry whenever I check them; they never get sopping wet in my experience. I suspect more water is removed from the hives through ventilation, but in any case, whether they act as insulation or water absorbent material, I like them. FYI, spring is finally springing here in central Maine though we've certainly got some cold nights ahead. Today it was sunny and the temperature was in the high 50's in protected areas. The snow is largely gone from south and east sloping fields but it's still quite deep in the woods. What ground that isn't frozen is mud. I saw Pussy Willow flowers emerging on my way to work this morning, though they're not producing pollen yet. It was such a nice day I decided to leave work early and go check my hives. I'm happy to report that all my hives from last summer have made it through the winter and most appear to be in fine shape- 12 double deep colonies and 2 singles. One colony is very weak- it had tracheal mites rather badly last summer and I requeened it, hoping for the best. They've made it this far but the cluster is very small.. and probably won't make it. I also built 4 nucs late last summer and one of them is still alive and looking great. It was my first attempt to winter nucs and I'm very happy with the results, all things considered. All the hives still have sufficient stores- it seems these Carniolan mongrels of mine consume very little during the winter. I'm particularly interested in the 2 singles, they're doing every bit as well as the full sized colonies. I expect I'll try wintering more singles in the future. I did lose 2 colonies that were given to me late last fall by some friends that took up beekeeping last spring and then decided it wasn't what they wanted to do after all. The hives arrived in late September full of mites and light on honey, and not very well built up. I tried to correct that situation as best I could but didn't expect them to make it. They lasted until the end of February. The 2007 season is upon us! Tally Ho! George- ---------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:49:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: New Hivastan from Central Life Sciences Receives Section 1 8 Approval In-Reply-To: <20070323.075058.775.738271@webmail22.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: > I assume they have tested how much of this chem ends up in > honey and it's effect on the queen's viability. Waldemar, assume *nothing* :) I am not aware of any test results posted on line. I've searched. I have no intention of using Hivastan so I probably won't bother looking further but if I run across anything interesting, I'll post it. One interesting tidbit I came across- one of the synonyms for fenpyroximate is "dynamite" :) George- ---------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:51:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: New Hivastan from Central Life Sciences Receives Section 1 8 Approval Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 18:15:45 -0000, Peter Edwards wrote: >Given the current problems with CCD, has anyone considered the effect of >adding another chemical to the mix currently in hives? what current problems? in the heartland of america (midwest) the jury is still out on CCD as to it being a substantial or even real problem. please note we have established that the losses are small enough that the demand for packages etc is not above normal in the USA. the often quoted statistic of 22 states is in question since most of the affected colonies are migratory and were not "home" anyhow during the winter. in addition the news media is just recycling the same reports from Nov/Dec with the occasional journalist and hobbyist spinning a tale of mystery , fear and intruige. we have heard reports of real losses in CA, although few if any details are included and are lumped under a headline of CCD in XYZ area. now that many beekeepers are checking over wintered colonies in the north I have heard nothing from my contacts in MN,WI,IA that indicates any bees are missing. winter losses are average to above as we had some harsh weather for about a month. life goes on in the beeyard as normal. trying to keep it real here in MN - Brian ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:04:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: water content of honey vs wintering problems In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > > The claim is that the boards accomplish two things: (1) a means of > wicking > the water so it does not condense and drip onto the bees, (2) a source of > water when bees cannot fly. > > I believe #1, and not #2. Despite believing #1 I also note that hives > kept > by there beekeepers usually are not at all bee tight and have lots of > places > for water vapor to escape. At my first session of the Bee School Thursday night a 35 year beekeeper showed me a pictures of bees lapping up water from the homsote board. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 21:35:42 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: New Hivastan from Central Life Sciences Receives Section 1 8 Approval MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen: > what current problems? You must forgive me for being confused. On the one hand I read that vast numbers of colonies have died and that some new dreadful disease is sweeping across the US - then I read comments like 'what current problems?' Clearly, if there is a problem then we would all like to be 'Informed' of it; if not then perhaps it is time to move on. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 06:00:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: water content of honey vs wintering problems In-Reply-To: <20070323082051.76915.qmail@web86206.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gavin Ramsay wrote: So - what about these absorbent boards? Do they greatly restrict flights out for water? Gavin, Would the phrase "reduce the need for" work better in the sentence above than "restrict"? The first would indicate voluntary action and the second involuntary action. Mike in LA --------------------------------- No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 08:03:57 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Beekeeping Organically MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting there was a program on Australian television last night which quoted a study that showed that, nutritionally, there was no difference between organic and non organic food tested. I believe it would be the same for honey. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Have a look at www.apimondia2007.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 18:23:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Wayne Young Subject: Re: water content of honey vs wintering problems In-Reply-To: <460439F5.6050205@sweettimeapiary.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Hi George,and list, Today was certainly a pretty day for the bees to get out,and fly around to check things out. Today I saw something that I haven`t figured out yet. I haven`t seen a thing that the bees could find pollen in,but they were finding some from something.I did notice a little bright orange pollen which I was pleased to see.I went back after lunch to check things out a while longer,and noticed a fair amount of bees bringing in what looked to be black pollen.This pollen is really dark colored as compared to the light blue pollen that I sometimes see in the spring. Do you have any idea what plant the dark black pollen might come from?I have never really figured out the blue pollen either. My bees did winter well.If I can find some help I think it is about time to put the queen ,and her followers back down to the bottom on the bottom board.The bees didn`t really want to feed from the feeder as well as they would if they were all at the same level. I did notice a little robbing going on today. It may not be a big deal,but I just don`t won`t them to do it. I guess I feel that they are like a bunch of crooks.I hate people that are crooks,so maybe for the same reason I don`t want my bees doing it either. My thermometer got up to around 64 degrees in the sun today.I really could hardly imagine that. I write you personally later with my phone # . Bye Wayne Young ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 11:07:16 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: water content of honey vs wintering problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Hi Mike and All > Would the phrase "reduce the need for" work better Yes, of course. Perhaps this is something that could be investigated readily in an association apiary or a commercial yard: a third of hives with division board feeder-style internal water supplies, a third with absorbent boards, and a third with the usual crownboard. The question then to ask would be which hives fly in less than ideal conditions? all the best Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:20:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: water content of honey vs wintering problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 24/03/2007 11:13:02 GMT Standard Time, gavinrbox-beel@YAHOO.CO.UK writes: <> Not just which fly least, but what they're bringing in. I've had hives which responded to sugar syrup in spring by bringing in extra pollen. There was no sign of a reduction in activity, but almost every bee coming in was laden with willow pollen. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:28:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Water White Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why is such pale honey so especially valued in the US? Chris In a message dated 21/03/2007 23:33:14 GMT Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: For the U.S. migratory beekeeper finding locations for water white honey and getting the honey off before darker flowers bloom will get you 10-25% higher price. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:16:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Water White Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chris & All, Chris asks: >Why is such pale honey so especially valued in the US? To lighten the dark honey imported from Argentina. The usually combination is 8 drums Argentina with 2 drums water white. The large packer is not as concerned about taste as color. Water white honey (true water white) is always bought by packers. All honey is not equal in the eyes of packers. Despite what I read in the bee magazine honey prices about "amber " bringing a higher price than "white" I have NEVER been paid top dollar by a packer for an amber grade.( I mean amber and not light or extra light amber). Also try to get a packer to buy orange blossom, buckwheat or many specialty grades for his regular production and see what happens. Most will dock you because of the amount of other honey needed to change the flavor or color. Florida & California white orange has been used by packers to cut Argentine honey at times. In the old days in Florida packers bought many barrels of excellent orange blossom to only blend out the orange blossom flavor. Once the specialty market is at capacity what else can the packer or beekeeper do? Of course when a specialty market exists for orange then the honey brings a premium. I will harvest a small amount of dark bakery grade honey but do not want a warehouse full! Most packers will take the time to educate the beekeepers which sell to them exactly what they want in the way of honey. Right now many simply want water white to cut the Argentine honey with. YOU NEVER SEE WATER WHITE AS SOLD TO PACKERS ON STORE SHELVES! At times beekeepers can simple let the packer know the amount of water white honey you have got and the price and sit an wait. A friend got a dollar and a dime last week for a large load. Took awhile before the phone rang. Waiting for the market to go up is dumb. Instead let the packers know what you have got and the price YOU are willing to sell the honey for . Then wait. Most honey buyers are as hard to deal with as a used car salesman. They can always top the beekeepers tales of woe and almost make you feel sorry for all their problems. Bob ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:19:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: water content of honey vs wintering problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gavin Ramsay wrote: Perhaps this is something that could be investigated (bees flying in incliment weather to get water and the use of homosote boards as inner covers) The question then to ask would be which hives fly in less than ideal conditions? The above comment was refering to the use of a homosote board as an inner cover. The idea was to split the hives in 1/3's with one acting as your control, one with internal sources of water, and one with homosote boards as inner covers. Before splitting the test of hives to test the three different approaches, you should document the activity of every hive used in the test to set a base line for its activity in incliment weather compared to the rest that would be used in the evaluation. Mike --------------------------------- It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 12:05:25 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: water content of honey vs wintering problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Hi Mike and All > Before splitting the test of hives to test the three different approaches, > you should document the activity of every hive used in the test to set > a base line for its activity in incliment weather This would best be an activity for next winter, so that the absorbent boards get charged with moisture in the usual way. I suppose that you could cheat and soak some now to try it out if you are in a region still clinging on to winter. G. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 09:24:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Wound Care with Antibacterial Honey (Medihoney') in Pediatric Hematology-Oncology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Wound Care with Antibacterial Honey (Medihoney™) in Pediatric Hematology-Oncology Mr. Kai Santos, Department of Pediatric Hematology and Oncology, Children's Hospital, University of Bonn, Adenauerallee 119, 53113, Bonn, Germany, kai.santos@ukb.uni-bonn.de Presented at: 5th German Apitherapy Congress, March 23-25, 2007, Passau, Germany SEE: http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/03/german-hospital-treats-wounds-using.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:42:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: U.S. Congress Asked to Probe Farming Practices as Cause of Bee Die-Off MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII U.S. Congress Asked to Probe Farming Practices as Cause of Bee Die-Off Apitherapists issue ‘Passau Declaration’ on Honey Bee Colony Collapse Disorder (Passau, Germany, 3/25/2007) – An international group of researchers and practitioners of Apitherapy, the medicinal use of bee hive products, meeting in Germany today called on the U.S. Congress to investigate new farming practices as a possible cause of Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD). CCD, which results in a massive die-off of honey bees, was initially limited to hives in North America, but beekeepers in several European nations have recently reported a similar phenomenon. The cause or causes of CCD have not been determined. Experts say causes of CCD may include environmental stress, malnutrition, unknown diseases, parasitic mites, misuse of pesticides, or pollen and nectar collected by the bees from genetically modified (GM) crops that produce Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt). The problem could affect a third of the foods farmers produce and may have a severe economic impact. See: Are GM Crops Killing Bees? (Spiegel Magazine) http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,473166,00.html See: Bee Shortage Could Sting Food Production (Fayetteville Observer) http://www.fayobserver.com/article?id=257791 On March 29, the Horticulture and Organic Agriculture Subcommittee of the House Agriculture Committee will hold a hearing called "Review of Colony Collapse Disorder in Honey Bee Colonies Across the United States." See: http://agriculture.house.gov/hearings/schedule.html The “Passau Declaration on Colony Collapse Disorder” was issued today at the conclusion of the 5th International Congress on Bee Products, Apitherapy and Apipuncture in Passau, Germany. (See: www.Apitherapie.de) It states... To view the complete news release, go to: http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/03/us-congress-asked-to-probe-farming.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 14:57:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Molokai Meli wrote: > No one on our board has beekeeping experience Hmm. That seems to be it in a nutshell. That, and beekeepers that wish to forbid many conventional beekeeping practices whether actually harmful or not. Going backwards is not really a sensible option. I don't like the environmental effects of heating my house with oil -- but the alternative, burn wood, is probably worse for the environment. Plus, in a few short years my four acre lot wouldn't have any more trees on it. The answer to today's problems is in the future, not the past. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 18:12:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: American and French beekeeping practices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I have a very good customer in France. His firm Ickowicz, Et Cie, is the #1 or #2 beekeeping supply company in France. I shared with him that the number of beekeepers in the US today is estimated to be no higher than 50% of the levels 10 years ago, and that many supply houses are losing money and some are going out of business. His reply is below. What is remarkable is that their equivalent of the ABF is lobbying to ban all pesticides in beehives, and commercial beekeepers are getting $1.80 a pound (3 Euro a kilo) for honey in barrels! We (read, commercial beekeepers) in the US are so focused on pollination (only made possible by our cheap gasoline) that they actually lobby *for*pesticides. Here are his comments: " Here i can say that it is the contrary. of course many small beekeepers have stop, whose who have not treated varroa or where the agriculture is too much industrial whith lot of pesticides, but many people are interrested by beekeeping , on our web site we have every days many new customers. beekeepers association UNAF fight against pesticide and OGM ( genetic modified ) . they have call bees : sentry of environnement and they make many manifestations they contact the local and country administrations and they install hives on their buildings in the town. they explain that if bees desapear human are also threated ( Einstein wrote that when there will be no bees on the earth, human will have only few years to live ) actually people in europe are very concerned by climat modification. an other sign : a very important seller of plants and every thing for garden, animals... named BOTANIC has stop to sell pesticides, herbicides, they have employed technic people to teach how make garden without chimical. i have an order with 14 hives that will be installed in 7 BOTANIC shops to show bees at people. i think that all this is good for us. for commercial beekeepers it is not bad . prices of honey are correct, minimum 3 euro in drum and going to 7 euro for our lavendel honey from Provence." Something to think about. Murray...do you have any thoughts? -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 22:10:38 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: U.S. Congress Asked to Probe Farming Practices as Cause of Bee Die-Off Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...this is a strange press release. it seems to be saying that a group (with no mention of who the members are, or what their credentials might be) in germany is asking the us congress to "probe farming practices"...and at the same time tells us that the "Horticulture and Organic Agriculture Subcommittee of the House Agriculture Committee " is already scheduled to hold a hearing on ccd....so they can claim later that they called for this action and the action was taken??? i don't get it. if, as the release claims, that ccd is being seen in "several european nations", why are they not also asking those countries governments to look into this? also, if you look at the full release, it says that the group is convinced of: "Some of the most promising antiviral substances are found in bee products like Propolis and Royal Jelly. At the same time, bee products are among most effective methods to boost the human immune system. Given the growing danger of a global pandemic with new virus strains like H5N1, the availability of such products in large quantities and high quality will be a key factor in our ability to limit the spread of such a disease." ...this is quite a claim...i don't doubt that many bee products have health benefits, but claiming that propolis will be an important treatment for a global bird flu pandemic is "premature" at best. deknow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 18:11:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: U.S. Congress Asked to Probe Farming Practices as Cause of Bee Die-Off In-Reply-To: <20070325104257.84d281a5f2f7df0ef38485a84124037d.91a5556b95.wbe@email.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit C Hooper wrote: > See: Are GM Crops Killing Bees? (Spiegel Magazine) > http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,473166,00.html > From the article: Since last November, the US has seen a decline in bee populations so dramatic that it eclipses all previous incidences of mass mortality. Beekeepers on the east coast of the United States complain that they have lost more than 70 percent of their stock since late last year, while the west coast has seen a decline of up to 60 percent. News to me. The whole article is the stuff of a bad B movie. The problem with CCD, as most here have noted in one way or another, is that you can hitch your star to it for any kind of problem out there, since we do not know the actual reason. So GM corn in Iowa is causing CCD in Maine. Why not? Those black helicopters have not stopped circling my hives. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 22:21:49 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Another CCD article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit WASHINGTON-honey bees are vanishing from hives in several southwestern regions, and scientists don't know why. In the last two years be keepers in Louisiana, Texas, Alabama and in California's Sacramento Valley have reported losing half or more of their bees. No one knows where they go or what happens to than since no bodies have been found. Some these may not be reproducing. The United States agricultural department hopes to solve the mystery before it becomes a disaster for bee keepers and farmers. >>>now, this is a clipping that came in an old copy of "the hive and the honeybeee". the clipping doesn't have the paper name or the date, but there is a handwritten "august 1965" on the clip. >>>...could be reprinted today. also similar to what is described as "spring dwindling" in the 1888 "xyz of bee culture". >>>yes, i know i'm not the first to mention these two previous incidents...but reading the clip makes it seem more and more familliar. >>>deknow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 22:09:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: U.S. Congress Asked to Probe Farming Practices as Cause of Bee Die-Off Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >Those black helicopters have not stopped circling my hives. > >Bill Truesdell >Bath, Maine > http://www.commoditytrader.com/agriculture/beans_bees_and_flares.php "“Since October 2006, 35 per cent or more of the United States' population of the Western honey bee (Apis mellifera) - billions of individual bees - simply flew from their hive homes and disappeared." and the possible explaination is......increased solar flare activity! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 08:47:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically In-Reply-To: <001601c76d97$28c9c6b0$8594453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit queenbee wrote: > Interesting there was a program on Australian television last night > which quoted a study that showed that, nutritionally, there was no > difference between organic and non organic food tested. I believe it > would be the same for honey. > I for one have never been under the illusion that organically produced food was necessarily more nutritious though I'm sure many people believe that to be true. I can say from experience however that in side-by-side taste tests, organically grown tomatoes may not be more nutritious, but they do actually taste better than their chemically produced counterparts. I also know from side-by-side taste tests that pure, clean, unheated, unfiltered, unadulterated honey, free from chemical residues and antibiotics, just tastes better and smells better than the over-heated, over-filtered blended sweet-goo you'll find on supermarket shelves. I prefer organically produced food because by purchasing it, I am saying yes to smaller scale, sane, sustainable farming practices and a traditional lifestyle in the only way that really counts- with my dollars. I buy Fair Trade shade-grown coffee beans because I know that by doing so I'm supporting a small scale, hard working bean farmer in some impoverished under-developed country and helping them maintain a traditional way of life in the only way that really counts- with my dollars. So for me it's not so much about nutrition. It's more about chemical pollutants- I don't want them in my food and I don't want them in the environment where my food is grown and I make that statement in the only way that really matters: with my dollars. . . o O ( Hivastan... aren't there US troops deployed over there? ) George- ---------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 09:07:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically In-Reply-To: <001601c76d97$28c9c6b0$8594453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit queenbee wrote: > Interesting there was a program on Australian television last night > which quoted a study that showed that, nutritionally, there was no > difference between organic and non organic food tested. I believe it > would be the same for honey. Same was done for honey with the same result. Most impartial studies show little difference between organic or non-organic as far as nutrition, but there is some truth to pesticide residue being greater on the surface of some non-organic fruits and veggies, even though it is in ppb. Pesticides were also found on organic, just there were more incidences of it on non-organic. You should wash them no matter where they come from. The problem is, if there is bacterial contamination, you are out of luck unless you cook it. Interesting that the recent spinach problem came from an organic grower. The field was not yet certified organic but looked like it was being primed for that. That technicality has let the organic movement off the hook for now, but there will be future outbreaks as the amount of organic produce increases. Can't help it. Just think of what some use for fertilizer. The US Navy banned purchase of veggies from some Asian countries back in the 1960s because of their use of "night soil". But animals other than man can contribute to soil pathogens that can cause harm. Here is the report on what has been found to date with spinach so you can judge. http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/16963687.htm I have had personal experience with this problem. An acquaintance grew their own veggies organically (they wanted only healthy, natural produce) and their baby picked up a soil born pathogen which disabled him mentally for life. Could have used pesticides and same would have happened. I see no cause and effect either way. On these sorts of incidences, you hear nothing from the organic movement other than a lot of technicality covering of tails, such as with the spinach scandal. Truth is, it can happen to the best of people, no matter what their method. You are not safer or healthier if it says organic on the label. Only poorer. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 09:33:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: water content of honey vs wintering problems In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20070323175027.03c50e40@incoming.verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wayne Young wrote: > Do you have any idea what plant the dark black pollen might come from?I > have never really figured out the blue pollen either. Hi Wayne! Out there on the water, you're probably further along than the rest of us flatlanders. It's early but you could have a small variety of pollen available. Cedar is a possible candidate as well as alder and pussy willow. Nothing like that is blooming here on the mainland yet but it might be out where you are. As early as it is, skunk cabbage is likely if it grows on your island. From Wikipedia: "Skunk cabbage is notable for its ability to produce heat of up to 15-35° C above air temperature by cyanide resistant cellular respiration in order to melt its way through frozen ground, placing it among a small group of plants exhibiting thermogenesis." Facinating :) I also find Pollen.com to be a very useful site: http://www.pollen.com/ According to them, Cedar and Poplar are likely blooming, or about to, around Rockport. They tell you about everything there is to know about different kinds of pollen including whether or not it's generally used by bees, but they don't mention the color :( > I did notice a little robbing going on today. It may not be a big > deal,but I just don`t won`t them to do it. Nip it. In the bud. Enjoy the day, George- ---------------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 11:10:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: New Hivastan from Central Life Sciences Receives Section 1 8 Approval Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 21:35:42 -0000, Peter Edwards wrote: On the one hand I read that vast >numbers of colonies have died and that some new dreadful disease is sweeping >across the US - then I read comments like 'what current problems?' We have little real news reporting left in the USA. The same piece of information gets recycled by 100's of reporters who do little additional legwork, and errors and omissions are rampant in almost every article. Even the bee publications have limited resources and may rely on published reports of published reports. The media here is hardly a reliable source of information for a topic that is as complex as honeybee losses. While there are published reports of a potential new disorder affecting honey bees in the USA there is currently no published scientific proof. I have been in contact with a dozen beekeepers in the Midwest (commercial and non), several queen breeders on the west coast, university researchers and other professionals in the bee supply industry. No one has said they have any first hand experience with CCD or knows of anybody who has. The spring MN Honey Producers newsletter has no mention of its members experiencing CCD like symptoms. There is a reprint of an old article on CCD...thats it. The spring supply of honeybees in packages or queens appears to have normal demand. During the large varrora collapse of 04/05 no bees could be secured by Jan 1st. Thus any losses so far are minimal compared to the 04/05 period. With that being said, there are real losses occurring that may have left some unusual symptoms in the remaining hives. So the issue at this point cannot entirely be discounted. We need to keep it in perspective though that this clearly is NOT some raging epidemic affecting a large majority of beekeepers in North America. May I suggest that even at $140/hive in pollination fees in CA that if the majority of commerical beekeepers were concerned about CCD or the like that they may have kept their bees out of that highly concentrated region. I have NOT heard a single report of that occurring. What does that tell us? The overwhelming majority of lost hives appears to be from migratory operations which has been the trend in previous large losses. You may wish to draw your own conclusion from that information. Please listen to the interview in the link below for what I found to be a realistic overview of the CDD phenomenom. http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2007/03/08/midmorning2/ (FYI: the real player application (free online) will play this file) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 11:53:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Water White Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:28:47 EDT, Chris Slade wrote: > >Why is such pale honey so especially valued in the US? > >Chris > >From my perspective as a 300 colony operation that packages and distributes my own varietal honey, white honey is a commodity for the packer industry. They operate on the notion that honey should be light in color, sweet and of little flavor (sounds like I could also be describing HFCS?) . Therefore in that world darker honey or less sweet, or of stronger flavor is worthless. Perhaps as most of the world honey production is not "white" or pale its a way to further depress the overall price of honey to further assist the pricing structure of the commodity business. Meanwhile in the "foodie" and natural food circles, honeys from unusual plants or strong flavored honeys get a premium and are highly sought after. I find the market rather bizarre and laugh-able. Sadly many beekeepers large and small are defined by this upside down world of commodity honey and feel they need to mimic that in their operation and sell their products for cheap. Others have caught on that unblended, raw honey in which the different sources are packaged seperately can offer the beekeeper a fair and sustainable way to make a living from their passion of keeping bees. Americans are proud that they only spend about 6% of their income on food. The goal for many is to return from the grocer, not with the most healthy or fresh, real food they could find, but rather the largest (make that hugest) servings for the least cost. Unlike the EU or other places in the world where the percent of income spent on food is much higher, we have not figured out yet as a country that the true cost of food is hidden in clever processing and marketing schemes controlled by large agri-business. Real unadulterated food produced by real people who are paid a decent wage, costs more money then something processed and marketed by large corporations. Cheap imitations or substitutes are the order of the day in the grocery and food serving businesses as Americans gladly ingest these food byproducts and use their excess money for their resource intensive lifestyle wich has defined America. So the aura surrounding "white" honey in the USA is also part of this marketing/money machine that strives to offer a homogenous, inferior product while masquerading it as something homegrown American and special. Its a strange, strange world over here my friend. Perception rules over Reality....just look at Wash DC....... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 15:57:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Joel_Klose?= Subject: Re: New Hivastan from Central Life Sciences Receives Section 1 8 Approval Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings Randy and others, {Fenpyroximate is also available as an ag formulation, so we can expect commercial beekeepers to start applying it with shop towels, etc, soon.} Randy, should I conclude from this statement that as a commercial beekeeper you plan to take this approach? Of course not! Although I am well aware commercial beekeepers often get the blame for most of what goes wrong in beekeeping it is not a fair characterization when generalized like this. Yes it is likely there will be irresponsible beekeepers using this incorrectly (assuming it is viable to do so) and some of them will certainly be commercial. However I have seen mavrik on popsickle sticks in 10 hive apiaries, mysterious patty concoctions in 50 hive operations and 1200 hive operations with cough drops (menthol) and Apistan strips on throughout the honey flow. In the latter the company had their honey tested throughout the season to make certain it was "safe", yes it's getting the cart before the horse. Last year I became aware of a 25 hive apiary which had Checkmite strips on during a period hives had made 2 supers of capped honey. The world of hobby and sideline beekeeping is just as fraught with misues as the commercial aspect with the distinct possiblity of industry impact should contanimated honey reach the food supply and the media. My point is improper use of potentially dangerous chemicals should be attributed to irresponsible beeekepers as a caste, not commercial, sideliners or hobbyist. Everyone needs to be held responsible for using potentially dangerous chemicals improperly. Most of us have had lingering thoughts for years what the implications are from chemicals, poor queen breeding, varroa spread and many other aspects of our craft. In truth we don't have any real conclusion yet do we, CCD is the poster child for that fact. Let's keep an open mind on Hivestan as a possible "tool" until we get all the facts before us and make an educated decision. In the real world not every chemical is evil. Best Regards, Joel ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 10:22:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Margot Subject: Re: water content of honey vs wintering problems In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20070323175027.03c50e40@incoming.verizon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My northern New England bees were scouting the mixed seed on the bird feeders yesterday. Perhaps your bees are bringing in a substance other than pollen. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:02:54 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: water content of honey vs wintering problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>a third of hives with division board feeder-style internal water supplies, a third with absorbent boards, and a third with the usual crownboard. I had put in feeders with water several days ago. The weather was nice on Friday and Saturday and I saw reduces flying. A greater percentage of returning bees were loaded with pollen. I assume there were fewer flights for water. I'll check the hives this week to check the water level in the feeders. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 09:44:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Taste In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Several posts seem to be about taste. Some directly and some indirectly. In many posts I have pointed out that people who are casual users of honey prefer light honeys that have little flavor. The discussion on water white honey seems to bear this out. It is obviously used to get a uniform color, but it is also taste. The industry knows that it must capture the casual user. Dark honey will not do it. Dark honey is the preferred honey of the long time user and the industry has that person already. Allen's post on how he had many containers of the same honey but allowed people to pick their favorite flavor showed both good marketing and our own problems with taste. I trialled seeds for a Maine based seed company. Part of the trial was taste. With three different people tasting the same veggies, it was unusual to get a consensus that one stood out. (Try to differentiate between 12 different varieties of onions. Never did them again.) The post about organic veggies tasting better than commercial has more to do with variety and how long after picking than organic vs. non-organic. I can put out a Jet Star tomato locally grown and it will taste better than any tomato out there (at least to me) be it organic or not because it is a low acid, sweet tomato. You will not find it in a grocery store as it is not a keeper. Any farm stand tomato is superior to a store tomato because of variety and they do not have to be transportable and keep fresh over many days. That also is a factor in the sale of local varietal honey. If it says blueberry on the label, it sells, even if a darker, cheaper "wildflower" honey tastes better. It is the perception that you are going to get the blueberry essence that is important to taste. Plus, it costs more so it must be better tasting. My eyes were opened by the spinach contamination, that it came from an organic grower from a not yet certified organic field. The same grower had the same product grown the same way but one was organic and the other not, only because of the field, not how they were grown. Just one cost more. The taste would be the same but it would not be to the buyer. Taste is very subjective and often, as shown by Allen, can be manipulated. It was my method of choice when I sold honey for our State Beekeeper's Chapter. First I asked them if they ate a lot of honey. Let the customer try the both light and dark honey . Then tell them which they liked better. It helped sell a lot of honey. Taste or perceived taste can be an excellent marketing tool. I am not sure about organic honey. I recently priced honey at a local "natural" market. The non-organic honey was about $3 per pound. The organic ranged between $5-15 per pound. My guess was that only one may have been organic since it had granulated while the others probably had been heated since they wer still liquid. The granulated one had the USDA label and was the most expensive. The store only had three organic honeys, each in single file, while the local non-organic and no nutrition label filled about eight slots. It was obvious that price was dominant along with local (actually in State but not near) and variety which implies taste. Organic was not a selling point. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 09:54:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Test for fermentation of honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Duquette wrote: > I was wondering if there is a way to test for > fermentation before I liquify and bottle. Is fermented honey safe to feed > to my bees? > > I do not recall a response to your question. Fermented honey is not good for bees and should not be fed to them. As far as tests, I defer to the experts, but my guess is the moisture content would be a good indicator if you have a before and after reading. Higher moisture could indicate fermentation. If the honey is thinner than usual I would suspect fermentation. But that is also an indicator of honeydew honey which is exceptional. Like I said, I defer to the experts. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:28:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: CCD - real or fake? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>We have little real news reporting left in the USA. While I somewhat agree with the above statement, I would like to understand the extent of this [alleged] problem myself. It's always best to put a face/name to an issue. Is there a medium or large beekeeper on this list who has recently experienced usually high unexpalined losses and is brave enough to come forward and discuss it in this forum? In my neck of the woods, the only losses that I've heard of can be attributed to poor beekeeping practices. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:28:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD - real or fake? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:28:57 GMT, waldig@netzero.com wrote: >Is there a medium or large beekeeper on this list who has recently >experienced usually high unexpalined losses and is brave enough to >come forward and discuss it in this forum? > good question, the silence over the last 2 months has been telling. have you played that podcast I provided the link to? your questions may be answered after listening to that interview from an "affected" beekeeper. say i like to read the CCD news articles with the theme song of the old TV classic the "Twilight Zone" playing in the background........it kind of sets the tone. http://frogstar.soylentgeek.com/wav/twilzone.wav ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:36:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Nutrition, contamination etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I can say from experience however that in side-by-side taste tests, organically grown tomatoes may not be more nutritious, but they do actually taste better than their chemically produced counterparts. Nutrition is nutrients - all of the nutrients, or lack thereof, in our food. Some folks discount some nutrients as unimportant when defining nutrition.:) Could it be that the organic produce you tasted was allowed to fully ripen? When fruits and vegetable are allowed to reach maturity, certain key phytochemicals, such as antioxidants, will be much higher and the taste will be improved as well. It's too bad that a lot of our food needs to be picked before maturity to accommodate long-distance transit. Local produce, especially if raised organically, is the freshest and best. Just like local honey commands a higher demand than a lot of the overcooked stuff on the supermarket shelf. >>I prefer organically produced food because by purchasing it, I am saying yes to smaller scale, sane, sustainable farming practices and a traditional lifestyle in the only way that really counts- with my dollars. This is nice and I think this is right. Sustainable agriculture, including beekeeping and the grown plants bees forage on, is key if want to leave a decent, sustainable planet to our kids and grandkids. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:45:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: introducing virgins to mating nucs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Improved technique for introducing four-day old virgin queens to mating hives that uses artificial and natural queen cells for introduction. Juan Antonio Perez-Sato,William O H Hughes, Margaret J Couvillon, Francis L W Ratnieks 2007 Journal of Apicultural Research 46(1): 28-33 Abstract We compared the acceptance of 4-day old virgin queens introduced into mating nucleus hives using natural and artificial queen cells versus a wooden 3-hole mailing cage, a standard introduction method. The queen cell methods gave high acceptance (95% and 93% for natural and artificial, respectively) even though the queen was released from the queen cell approximately 10 minutes after being introduced into the mating hive. By contrast, success using mailing cages was significantly lower (47% and 73%) when the queen was released from her cage after 1 hour or 48 hours, respectively. The equal success rates of the reused and artificial queen cells suggests that high success is not due to chemicals present in natural queen cells transferring to the queens. To further investigate why queen cells give higher introduction success than cages, we introduced virgin queens into queenless observation hives.Workers attacked only 1 of 12 queens leaving a queen cell whereas 5 out of 6 queens leaving a cage were attacked. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:38:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: CCD - real or fake? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wrote: >Is there a medium or large beekeeper on this list who has recently >experienced usually high unexpalined losses and is brave enough to >come forward and discuss it in this forum? OK I'm coming out of the closet. I lost 15 out of 15 in one of my 2 apiaries. The other had 20% losses. (i.e. normal). There's a few handfuls of bees left in one colony that act strange and will be on the way to a lab in the next few days. Since I wrote about CCD it seems too easy to jump on that bandwagon but the symptoms are similar. I'm in Ct and the bees never moved. I interview a lot of people for my article. I have about 20 contacts that I won't name. When I asked a large operator if he had lost bees he frankly told me that he wouldn't tell me if he had. I wondered a bit about this answer but there are a number of reasons: 1. He may have pollination contracts he's scrambling to cover and he wouldn't want the growers to get nervous. 2. He wouldn't want competition to know he was weakened. 3. It's a bit like publicizing a financial statement; who wants to do that? 3. There may be a certain amount of guilt involved over not taking good care of the bees. Guilt is a common reaction when trauma hits. 4. He may not want to itemize the stuff that went in the hive that wasn't legal. 5. He may not want growers and potential customers to be suspicious of future bees or bee-products. OK out there, you don't have to come out of the closet, just add to my list. What is the reluctance? Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:34:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD - real or fake? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:38:28 -0400, Dick Marron wrote: >OK I'm coming out of the closet. I lost 15 out of 15 in one of my 2 >apiaries. The other had 20% losses. (i.e. normal). There's a few handfuls of >bees left in one colony that act strange and will be on the way to a lab in >the next few days> some of us need more then the stats......like DETAILED what happened and when. so far your post is the same vague information we have heard already. beekeeper looses bees. so whats new or unusual about that? what leads you to beleive its CCD? I think the list would be very interested to hear your story.......................... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:00:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: water content of honey vs wintering problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Wayne Young wrote: >> Do you have any idea what plant the dark black pollen might come from?I >> have never really figured out the blue pollen either. This may or may not be helpful! In the UK, black pollen will usually come from poppies. Blue pollens are unusual: Phacelia tanacetifolia gives a deep electric blue pollen, Rosebay willowherb (Epilobium angustifolium) gives a pollen described as 'Saxe blue' - a sort of greenish blue. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:35:50 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: CCD - real or fake? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I lost 15 out of 15 in one of my 2 apiaries. I sincerely thank you for coming out. Really! Losses are not necessarily an indicator of poor beekeeping practices. Is there anything in your management that you can attribute this loss to? I know this is a loaded question and I certainly don't mean to pick on you. The 20% loss in your 2nd yard seems a bit high. Were those losses analogous with the ones from your other yard? My colonies, for example, came through just fine but I was a bit concerned last October when I brought them back from late asters and saw quite a bit of crystalized stores. I supplemented with sugar water and, probably due to the mild winter, the bees did not starve. Can you elaborate on: 1. The strength & age of the clustering bees in the colonies last October 2. The amount and quality of stored honey and pollen 3. Cleansing flight frequency (I am south of you) 4. Were the lost bees in the hives or did they disappear altogether Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:08:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: Bee Publications In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I do not know who Brian Fredericksen is, but I do have trouble with his recent post on this list. Right off, I am speaking for myself, and not on record for the American Bee Journal, however, I suspect what I say would be supported by Joe Graham. Since both U.S. Bee Publications are monthly, there is an unavoidable delay of about 2+ weeks from the time we close an issue until it is in the hands of readers. However, both Journals have reliable reports as current as that timetable allows, written by scientists, beekeepers and reporters, and neither have simply reports of reports of this CCD event. Both had reporters at the meeting in Florida, and both now have reporters in the field finding and talking to beekeepers, researchers and others who have both a vested interest in this situation, and first hand knowledge of the situation. I do not know if this CCD event as serious as it seems or not, but I will wait until credible reports are presented before I damn the industry, or curse the media. Both publications may rely.....? I have trouble with that accusation, too. You have offhandedly damned both journals with your very broad brush, and discounted the credibility of both U.S. bee publications with one fell swoop...And, since the recent issues of both magazines have obviously not yet been read, you damn us further without proof of what either journal has done. I await with anticipation the next edition of your journal that absolutely relies on something other than assumptions. Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 Kim@BeeCulture.com www.BeeCulture.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:28:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: Test for fermentation of honey MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Truesdell" To: Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 9:54 AM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Test for fermentation of honey > Charles Duquette wrote: >> I was wondering if there is a way to test for fermentation before I >> liquify and bottle. Is fermented honey safe to feed to my bees? >> I have always been under the impression that crystallized honey, providing it has not separated does not ferment. here again let the experts intervene. Alden Marshall Hudson, NH ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:46:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Bee Publications Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:08:13 -0400, Kim Flottum wrote: > I do not know who Brian Fredericksen is, but I do have trouble with his >recent post on this list. i'm just some jackpine hillbilly with bee hives in the northern tundra of america and a computer hookup. lets see about my claim of reports of reports. page 107 bee journal feb 07 in world honey market quotes a report. page 181 bee journal march 07 "News Notes" quotes two reports, also page 199 nice piece by Chuck Norton who mostly quotes published reports. page 63 bee culture march 2007 appears to be entirely from published reports circulated widely. so maybe I should not have included bee culture. sorry for that, just one report of a report. my main point in that post was to get people to think and not just beleive everything in the media because its in print or on TV, not to discredit the bee mags. we desperately need some other views in print on this topic, in the last week the BBC and german publication Spiegel published grossly inaccurate reports of 35% and 70% losses nationwide in USA. Do you see an out of control story here? Some might use words like mania or hysteria, especailly when it comes to the scope of losses and the latest weirdo ideas of the cause. Who will set the record straight on the losses? have you written to the editors of these publications to call foul? I have....and asked for their source on the losses... Pick up any regional newspaper and read the latest nonsense of dead hives that by golly must be CCD. Some of it is truly funny and entertaining. IMO most of whats in print to date is speculative, inaccurate or a report of a report. I really am concerned about CCD and would like to hear some credible new information that answers my questions. I'm just not seeing it so far.... I'll be looking for a balanced article on CCD soon in upcoming issues of both Bee Mags, or would there be political implications for either publication to question the accuracy of reports relative to CCD as I have? I mean you must have to keep your sources happy. The ads must generate most of the income. I wonder how some of the advertisers would sit with a story critical of the reporting on CCD? or question whether the industry has self inflicted problems on themselves and then blame CCD? I sense a political correctness in the industry relative to CCD, like support the troops. I'm sure these types of issues are real in the publication of any industry journal and one must be sensitive to them. Would I expect an industry publication to question and beat to a pulp every claim made concerning CCD?...no realistically probably not, thats what the internet is for these days. Me I have no one to answer to so I can call it as I see it ....and gladly take the heat...bring it on. I'm here to learn, question and share, not blindly take in all reports as truth, epecially when most lack the neccessary factual proof we need to have a rational discussion on CCD. btw I feel both publications are invaluable to all beekeepers, I subscribe to them, read them, pass them on and encourage other beekeepers to subscribe.......even if reports of reports are occasionally utilized. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:53:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD - real or fake? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Although no smoking gun has been found so far ( or so we have been told) a problem in the Malpighian tubules of adult CCD bees has been seen. Private research looking into the problem have found the amoeba cysts.( as well as the CCD researchers I have been told). Confirmation with the microscope is not an easy test to run . The protozoan M. mellificae was suspected of being the possible cause for "disappearing disease" years ago. Always considered a non issue in the U.S. the M. mellificae infection is taken serious in many parts of the world. No known cure but you can disinfect equipment with acetic acid. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:41:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Test for fermentation of honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ALDEN MARSHALL wrote: > I have always been under the impression that crystallized honey, providing > it has not separated does not ferment. here again let the experts > intervene. It is more likely to ferment than liquid honey. When honey granulates, the glucose forms a lattice structure of crystals, leaving a more dilute solution of fructose within the lattice. As it is more dilute, yeasts are able to grow causing fermentation. This is one of the reasons that granulated honey can be a bad winter feed - the bees use the dilute fructose solution, leaving behind hard crystals of glucose. Honey with a max 18% moisture is normally OK (which makes the EU limit of 20% seem very odd, to say the least!). It is rare that I get honey >18%, but if I do then it is used first and blended with low moisture honey; our norm is around 17.5%, although 16% is common. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:59:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: CCD Real or fake MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian wrote: >>>>>some of us need more then the stats......like DETAILED what happened and when.<<<<<<< If you don't know the details of a CCD hit by now you haven't been reading enough. Only some of the details match my problems. >>>so far your post is the same vague information we have heard already. <<<< What's vague about 15 dead of 15? That's a CCD thing. Whole yards gone. >>>>beekeeper looses bees. so whats new or unusual about that?<<<< Nothing, unless they are yours. >>>>what leads you to beleive its CCD?<<<< To tell the truth I don't really believe it. >>>I think the list would be very interested to hear your story.<<< I don't really think so. But: 15 hives looked fine in spring. Some early splits some old hives and 2 packages. Treated all by sublimating O/A. Harvested honey in July. Mite drops low. 0 to 20 per day. Went hunting etc and came back in late sept. No more crop and mite counts too high. 20 to 50 a day. Treated the same way and again in a few weeks. Fed sugar syrup. They seemed not to take it. Nov. I found several (4/5) weak with: VERY SMALL CLUSTERS, A QUEEN AND NO BEES IN THE HIVE. I cleaned up the deadouts and spread the unused honey around. Then I went to FL to pay attention to the new CCD thing. Home in late Feb, I found most of them dead. Some had dead bees on the bottom board-most of them did not. They died in the midst of stores and in small clusters. One colony remains. No dead bees in the hive about 1 frame of bees, no brood. They are dying. I don't claim it's CCD. In answer to your query I told about my losses. Reread your reaction to my post and you will find another reason why people with losses don't post. They get jumped on. Your fingers are already twitching over the keys to tell me what killed my bees and what I should have done differently. Maybe not. Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:19:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: CCD - real or fake? In-Reply-To: <20070326.123646.14831.2283819@webmail38.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar wrote: >>>>I sincerely thank you for coming out. Really! Losses are not necessarily an indicator of poor beekeeping practices.<<<<< Thanks for that. I don't consider that my few hives could prove anything one way or the other. >>>Is there anything in your management that you can attribute this loss to? <<< Yes lots. I've been stubbornly trying to keep bees with minimal treatments. I settled on fuming O/A. No fumigillin, no menthol. I did well last year(05). I harvested 500 or so pounds by July 06. >>>>The 20% loss in your 2nd yard seems a bit high. Were those losses analogous with the ones from your other yard?<<< No. One hive was weak. The other should have been OK. There were dead bees in these hives. Winter was tough. Up here this is unremarkable. >>>>I was a bit concerned last October when I brought them (my bees) back from late asters and saw quite a bit of crystalized stores. ...the bees did not starve.<<<<< I saw crystallized honey. Also I saw a lot of open honey. More open cells than they had in the fall. Did they open them and not use them? Can you elaborate on: 1. The strength & age of the clustering bees in the colonies last October I was unhappy with them. They wouldn't take feed. I can't honestly say I know the age of the fall bees. >>2. The amount and quality of stored honey and pollen<< I was unsure if they had enough stores (I always am). It was a bad fall with no real honey flow from July on. >>3. Cleansing flight frequency (I am south of you)<< Winter was kind until late Jan but there was a clampdown of a month or so. No dysentery spotting. >>4. Were the lost bees in the hives or did they disappear altogether.<< In Nov/Dec I found empty hives (Practically) with a queen and very few bees. The one that is left now has very few bees. In other hives bees died in one small cluster. It looked like they cold-starved. Now I'm wondering if they couldn't move to stores for other reasons. Nobody was out of stores. Let me repeat. I think this may be mite damage that the later treatments were too late to cure or tracheal mites. I'll test the last bees and let you know. Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:53:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: introducing virgins to mating nucs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adony, Something to consider here. I did with husband for many years virgin queen cell drops into our colonies that had the queen cells contained in 3 dram bottles with not other bees allowed in contact. With queen cages normally other nurse bee workers are added. With the queen IMPOV never having been touched by another bee then no smell is on the queen with those queens released directly from queen cell containers only or bottle containers. With Workers in the same cage IMPOV the scenario changes and the queen takes on the smell of the first bees touched and while introducing same, many are rejected becasue of this. For the queen smells foreign and something to confront. Always said we had high 90% to 95% success rate in dropping in virgin queens and no fighting noticed while doing, for she would take on the scent of the first bees touching her and act like a supercedure queen FWIW, with royal court all around her within very few minutes. Sincerely, Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:49:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: CCD Real or fake MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Marron wrote: > Treated all by sublimating O/A. > Harvested honey in July. Mite drops low. 0 to 20 per day. Went hunting etc > and came back in late sept. No more crop and mite counts too high. 20 to > 50 > a day. Treated the same way and again in a few weeks. Is the problem here simply excessive use of oxalic acid - and using it at the wrong time of year? The general advice seems to be no more than 1 treatment per year and when the colony is broodless (or as near broodless as possible). We know that oxalic will both damage brood and suppress brood rearing. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:09:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: GM corn pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline * There are a number of news stories out which mention the possibility of bees being affected by GM corn pollen. Some refer to a "German study". Effects of Bt maize pollen on the honeybee (2001 - 2004) Jena University, Institute of Nutrition and Environment This project aimed to answer to the following question: Does large-scale cultivation of Bt maize have an impact on the honeybee? Overall it was not possible to prove the existence of any chronic toxic effects of Bt176 and Mon810 Bt maize varieties on healthy honeybee colonies. In view of the extreme conditions under which the trial was carried out (six-week duration, high Bt toxin content), the wide-ranging investigations carried out show that toxic effects on healthy bees under natural conditions can be excluded with a high degree of certainty. This result is further supported by the fact that honeybees only collect small quantities of maize pollen, even in areas cultivated with large maize plots, when other plants are available as sources of pollen (less than three percent). For monitoring purposes, nine bee colonies were located in the immediate vicinity of a Bt maize field in 2003. Nine control colonies were placed next to a non-transgenic maize field at a distance of approx. five kilometres to prevent any overlap in the foraging areas, whilst at the same time ensuring that the climatic conditions were as similar as possible. During the flowering period, the frequency of honeybee visits to the maize plants was recorded. The proportion of maize pollen was recorded using pollen traps and microscopic tests. The number of bees and their brood activity were established. Since the colonies remained at the location close to the respective trial plots, the bee colonies were also observed during the winter months. During the flowering period the bees collected only a very small proportion of maize pollen amounting to less than three percent (both Bt and non-transgenic pollen). The maize pollen had no negative effects on the number of bees or the development of the brood in the colonies. The two groups did not differ in their development during late summer or in their ability to survive the winter. http://www.gmo-safety.eu/en/safety_science/68.docu.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 05:14:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Austrian Spa Uses 'Bee Air' to Treat Respiratory Problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII An Austrian spa, called “Tiroler Bienen Welt,” offers treatment with “Bienenluft” or “Bee Air.” Visitors to the spa are given one-hour treatments twice a day for 12 days. They breath air containing volatile compounds released by nectar, honey, pollen and propolis in the hive directly from the hives and exhale so that their breath does not impact the bees in any way. Spa owners claim success in treating ailments such as asthma. SEE: http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/03/austrian-spa-uses-bee-air-to-treat.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:53:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Taste Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I find about 80% of my customers can discern the difference between a packer grade and raw honey. almost all of the 80% can also discern between 4 or 5 different varietals too. organic is part religon, a feel good thing, know you are supporting a small entity thats easy on the environment. so much food is produced in a non-environmentally friendly way that organic is a reaction to that. spend a day looking around the heartland of america and see the massive amounts of chems used and the disgust of the inside of a pork feedlot. after a day in the field what educated person could conclude that the industrial version of food production is the best we can do as a result of 100 years of Ag technology? its that realization that makes someone who can afford it pay $15 for a 10oz jar of organic honey and support the organic concept. for a growing number of people its like sending $15 to support a movement. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:45:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: CCD Real or fake MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: >>>Is the problem here simply excessive use of oxalic acid - and using it at the wrong time of year?<<< I was sublimating it. (Heating the powder) I've done this for years now without incident and good mite drops. This system is not as detrimental to the bees. I agree with the wrong time of year. I waited too late expecting a fall crop. Had I been home I'd have treated in Aug. Bob Harrison wrote on this list that if you don't clean them up in Aug, you are going to lose bees. SO: clean them up in early spring, then 2x in Aug or so will be my schedule. Any comments? Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 07:33:00 -0600 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: CCD real or fake Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Dick and all, Dick wrote: Back in the summer of 2000 we had an extremely dry spell here in Kansas that really endured throughout the fall. I had moved bees to soybeans and had hoped for enough of a flow to put the bees into shape and it just didn't happen. By the time I started feeding the first of October, it was too late. There had been little brood production during August and September, if any, and many queens were reluctant to restart laying in October as it turned cold very fast. It had been over 100 degrees the second week of Sept. during our state fair and then we had a killing frost around the tenth of Oct., quite unusual and extreme. By Thanksgiving I knew I was in serious trouble as clusters averaged the size of softballs. For a hive to maintain critical mass for a production unit the coming year we need basketballs at christmas, a good box of bees. Anyway almost everyone here in eastern Kansas and western Missouri lost from 80-90 percent of our hives because there were no winter bees produced during August and September and clusters were just too small to survive the resulting winter we had which was the last really cold one we have had. Since then I have made it a practice to feed my bees during the nectar drought of late July and August after pulling honey of course. We only have a fall flow once every three or four years that is sufficient to collect in supers. This keeps the queens producing brood and believe me this is the most critical time of the year for preparing for next years crop. Fall management begins when you pull your honey. Without stores of honey or a nectar flow, why should and how can the bees produce brood? I also have treated the those hives showing stress from mites when I pull my honey the last few years. If you wait till October........too bad. Hope this might help a little and provide a possibility of an answer. Tim ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:53:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: CCD Real or fake Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick, Thank you for sharing your experience. It shed some new light [for me] on what can happen. It's always good to learn from others. Are you planning to re-stock your dead-outs or will you wait until you get lab results? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:28:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: CCD Real or Fake In-Reply-To: <001001c77077$15dc3280$6401a8c0@NOTEBOOK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > (BTW did you note that a big > package supplier won't have bees this year?) That would be Schumans Apiary in Baxley, Ga. It's no secret, thay've notified all the customers that they cannot meet their orders. For those saying CCD is a myth, walk a mile in Schumans' shoes. Or mine for that matter. I suspect when I take final toll my losses will be over 80%. CCD? Maybe it's running more hives than I have time to properly tend (poor beekeeping). May be mites, can rule out AFB & EFB. I can take lots of SWAGS. I can't say anything with assuredness. Again for 5 years running, my best bees this spring are the nucs I set up last summer and did not push for honey production. I'm currently reading Rachel Carson's _Silent_Spring_ (ironic that she died of breast cancer, I didn't know that) and I'm being AMAZED that warnings written in 1962 has continued unabated for four decades since her death. I heard a CCD presentation this past Saturday given by Marianne Frasier. For those who missed it, surf to http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/ and read before you leap. A suspect (no smoking gun) is neonicotinoids that have become so prevalent in today's environment. Alas, still no answers. Aaron Morris - thinking about throwing in the towel! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:08:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Taste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > someone who can afford it pay $15 for a 10oz jar of organic honey and support the organic concept. for a growing number of people its like sending $15 to support a movement. For a growing number of people it's like selling snake oil and ripping off consumers. They also object to the suggestion that there is something inferior about regular honey sold at regular prices. > Snake oil is a traditional Chinese medicine used to treat joint pain. However, the most common usage of the words is as a derogatory term for compounds offered as medicines which imply they are fake, fraudulent, or ineffective. The expression is also applied metaphorically to any product with exaggerated marketing but questionable or unverifiable quality. In short, it refers to a product sold as one part of a hoax. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:08:47 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Bee Publications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: CCD I agree with Brian about the media spin, but don't blame Bee Culture or ABJ. I've been besieged with forwarded articles from friends. Clearly, the (minimally) adequate supplies of bees for almond pollination indicates the the US industry has not collapsed (yet). There are unrelated collapse problems worldwide--Nosema ceranae, pesticides, muck in Australia, unusual weather on the East Coast, monster drought in the Midwest, varroa kills, and poor management. All caused expected losses. However, there are compelling reports of losses with common symptoms (CCD) that can't be blamed on the usual suspects above. As Jerry Bromenshenk has said, they appear similar to previous (possibly cyclic) collapses. I have not personally seen a CCD yard, but have spoken with those that have. As the researchers look at recently (this month) collapsed yards, they are getting a better idea of what to look for. Neither I, nor any of my beekeeping buddies have experienced CCD. But I'm not about to discount that there may be something happening--Jerry, Dave Pettis, etc are smart guys, and unlikely to be working so hard on a wild goose chase. Just because the media have gone overboard doesn't mean that we can discount that there may be some recurring, mutated, or new virus or fungus out there. Or something else. The scary part to me, is reports that responsible beekeepers, practicing good management, are experiencing new losses this spring--past the point that one would expect poor fall forage to exert an effect. I support the investigation, and hope that the researchers can either discount CCD, or find the cause. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 15:32:50 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Taste Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>its that realization that makes someone who can afford it pay $15 for a 10oz jar of organic honey and support the organic concept. To a lot of people, natural/local/organic is their attitude, lifestyle, and philosophy. I had a customer tell me a couple of weeks ago that he does not mind paying extra for my natural honey - I can't be organic in suburbia - because he feels processed foods are one of the root causes of the health problems. He said we spent some $1.3 trillion on health care (his actual terms was 'disease care'!) in the US last year and we are not very healthy. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:50:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD Real or Fake In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092112013B26@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron Morris wrote: > http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/ and read before you leap. A suspect (no > smoking gun) is neonicotinoids that have become so prevalent in today's > environment. > I continue to go back to the fact that something like CCD has happened before. In the link, stonebrood is also noted as a cause and it has the same symptoms we see today. To quote: http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/pressReleases/FallDwindleDisTalkAustin.pdf Tentative Hypothesis Common denominator is the presence of fungi, likely Aspergillussp. (stonebrood) Burnside 1930 – Caused infected adult bees to fly from hive and die THIS IS AN OPPORTUNISTIC FUNGUS LIKELY ABLE TO ESTABLISH BECAUSE OF ANOTHER CONDITION Back when the same problem arose, there was no Varroa or the pesticides that are being considered today. Stress seems to be a helper, and commercial beekeeper's bees are subject to great stress. Plus, they can easily spread problems to another beekeeper pollinating in the same field. It would be nice to pin the rap on HFCS since Aspergillussp is used in its manufacture, but the link noted that HFCS was not a common element in CCD. Our recent beekeeping season in Maine was very bad with a damp cold spring and poor nectar flow in summer. We did not get any good honey until fall, and fall honey is not good for overwintering in Maine. So lots of stress and poor honey will be contributors to winter kill in Maine.So might CCD. Aspergillussp is naturally found in soil throughout the world. I agree that CCD is real, but the extent of it has not been determined nor has the cause. Without a cause, you cannot determine the extent, since beekeeper's have been losing colonies since beekeeping started. Several of the named possible culprits have been around for as long. It may be something new, but there are plenty of old "friends" which cause the same symptoms and my bet is on them. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:22:41 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Taste Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "superior" and "inferior" are issues for the consumer to decide. "regluar" honey almost always comes from colonies that are medicated (on a schedule...not on an as needed basis) with substances that _i_ personally would rather not be exposed to, and that i don't think are good for the long term health of honeybees and their gene pool...lets not even talk about what might be in "regular" honey that comes from other countries (that can be bought at "regular" prices). now, you don't have to agree with me...and you can very legitimately take the position that chemical cruthes are not harmful to bees, and that they are not present in honey in any ammount to be of concern...i'm certainly not trying to tell anyone what to believe. that said, i don't use chemicals in my hives, and i have no problem making people aware of what _is_ put in most hives (read: i'm happy to tell people everything that goes into my hives (bees, wood, glue, and the occasional unmedicated grease patty)...how often do you talk to customers and potential customers about fluvalinate and other treatmants you might use?), and what the differance is between those practices and what i do. if given the choice between equally priced honey that is produced with chemicals (and read those msds's), and honey produced without, i think most people would choose the honey produced without chemicals. some subset of those people are willing to pay more for it...i don't see a problem. now, those that say that their honey is so pure it will cure cancer is another story.... deknow -- Peter Borst wrote: They also object to the suggestion that there is something inferior about regular honey sold at regular prices. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:16:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Tom_Roberts?= Subject: Sterilizing Plastic frames Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would like to know how to sterilize plastic frames. If anyone has any experience regarding this topic; help, advice or pointing me in the right direction would be much appreciated. Thanks, Tom Roberts ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:45:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Austrian Spa Uses 'Bee Air' to Treat Respiratory Problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit C Hooper wrote: > They breath air containing volatile > compounds released by nectar, honey, pollen and propolis in the hive > directly from the hives They probably also breathe in fungi and moulds and many other nasty things! I seem to remember advice that beekeepers should avoid breathing in that first rush of warm air that rises when opening a hive. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:42:46 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Phipps Subject: Re: Bee Publications In-Reply-To: <013901c7708a$341f1b00$ad25fea9@jps.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe that until the investigators fully include colony collapses from abroad showing exactly the same symptoms as those listed for CCD, then the whole picture will never become clear. Agricultural chemicals, certain varroa and other treatments could readily be dismissed (at least in my case) where I live in the mountains of Greece and use only Apiguard. I lost about 30 colonies, most of them headed by that year's queens. I could put it down to poor mating as we had a cool spring and maybe there were not many drones flying; I could put it down to the fresh wax used in each of these colonies - but don't have the means of analyzing the wax. Maybe the emulsion paint on each of the new colonies was to blame . . . . but what ever the cause the exact symptoms as for CCD. Another bee yard 300 metres away no problems - but I retained the queens in each of these. As for beekeeping journals, my March issue of the BKQ carries a report, but copy dates and deadlines don't always allow us to hang around to wait to see what is happening. News has to be reported as it occurs and the facts sent to editors (which one tries very hard to verify) have up to a certain point to be taken on trust. I think we4 all manage pretty well in not sensationalizing the reports we make in the way that they appear in the national and international press. John Phipps > The scary part to me, is reports that responsible beekeepers, > practicing > good management, are experiencing new losses this spring--past the > point > that one would expect poor fall forage to exert an effect. I support > the > investigation, and hope that the researchers can either discount CCD, > or > find the cause. > > Randy Oliver > > > John Phipps Editor: The Beekeepers Quarterly Neochori, Agios Nikolaos, Messinias, Greece 24024 webpage: www.iannisphoto.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 15:43:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: taste Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter said: “For a growing number of people it's like selling snake oil and ripping off consumers.” Peter, if you want to convince people that emphasizing that “Organic” is better than “Ordinary” is like selling snake oil you have got your work cut out for you. Whether it is true or not it is what a growing number of people believe if for no other reason than because that's what they want to believe. And no amount of chemical analysis is going to convince them otherwise. So what if it’s a marketing gimmick. I haven’t seen “Ordinary Honey” on any labels lately. Maybe it just doesn’t sell. Or maybe it is associated with icky stuff that creeps people out. Personally I like all honey, but I like some honeys better that others. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:16:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: taste Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >if you want to convince people that emphasizing that Organic is >better than Ordinary is like selling snake oil you have got your work cut >out for you. Really, I have no interest in convincing anybody of anything. Quite the contrary, it bothers me that some salespeople have to put down good honey that is being sold in farm markets and shops all over the world. If people feel better about buying organic, so be it. That doesn't mean honey by and large is not a wholesome product. I am not talking about pasteurized over-processed honey here; but honey that has been carefully handled and packed, taken from bees that are raised in accord with standard practices. I know a lot of beekeepers who work very hard to produce a good product. Many would no doubt try to keep bees without treatments if it would work. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:24:18 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Bee Publications Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>if you want to convince people that emphasizing that “Organic” is better than “Ordinary” is like selling snake oil you have got your work cut out for you. I listened to NPR today over lunch and they mentioned a recent study by the University of Oslo (and another one in Sweden) that showed organic produce was richer in certain nutrients. I think one of them was polyphenols (spelling?). Unfortunately, there was no link to the study. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:51:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: CCD - real or fake? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" > No known cure but you can disinfect equipment with acetic acid. > Sincerely, > Bob Harrison > > > Bob, Do you think Ozone fumigation would work? Alden Marshall Hudson, NH > > -- > ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:34:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: taste Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Peter said: “For a growing number of people it's like selling snake oil >and ripping >off consumers.” Steve replied: >Peter, if you want to convince people that emphasizing that “Organic” is >better than “Ordinary” is like selling snake oil Let's keep Peter's quote in context. He wasn't talking simply about emphasizing that organic is better; he was responding to a mention of a 10 oz jar for $15. Is "organic" honey better? Probably, depending on the particulars. Is $15/10 oz "organic" honey snake oil? We could answer in the affirmative to both these questions, couldn't we, especially going by the definition of snake oil that Peter provided? I think it's a fair generalization to say that nobody buys $24/lb honey valuing that honey for food (as opposed to a souvenir, gift item, status symbol, etc.) I also think it's ridiculous to think that people are going to pay $24/lb to support the organic cause, i.e. that that would be people's real motivation. People don't pay 400%-600% of the fair value for items to support causes, do they? They just make separate donations, right? Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:32:41 -0400 Reply-To: Stacy L Brockett Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stacy L Brockett Subject: Pollen types? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there anything out there resource wise that might clue me in to what types of pollen my honey's are bringing in? We're just starting to get warmed up enough in my area that crocuses are out, and I know that's some of it... But what of the pale yellow pollen they are carrying? Looks a bit waxy, and the color of a light Labrador retriever, or a white wine... :-D I thought maybe coltsfoot, but wouldn't that be darker? Stacy L. Brockett SM3Pines Farm - Canandaigua, NY http://www.smthreepines.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:42:28 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Austrian Spa Uses 'Bee Air' to Treat Respiratory Problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...i've got an ulster observation hive on order with plans to add a mic/amplifier (i've done this before in regluar lang hive), and a "sniffer tube" (hopefully with a one way valve so the bees can't be breathed on)....observation isn't only done with the eyes :) i'd be suprised if the levels of any mold/fungi in hive air would be enough to cause any discomfort...they do tend to keep a clean house with lots of ventilation afterall. deknow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:54:15 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: taste Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Peter Borst wrote: ... but honey that has been carefully handled and packed, taken from bees that are raised in accord with standard practices. >>>well peter, i would submit that (at least the subset of people that buy organic or organicish) would be turned off to learn what the "standard practices" are. Many would no doubt try to keep bees without treatments if it would work. >>>well, let's assume that you get 1/2 the crop without using chemicals....if you can get twice as much per pound (or less, you don't have the added costs for the chemicals), it's a wash...and if by not using chemicals one can breed bees that are not dependant on chems (which you have no oppurtunity to do if you are using chems), you will do much better than 1/2 the crop in the long run. is it more or less profitable? really it depends on the beekeeper and the local market. >>>don't get me wrong, i'm not condeming those that do use chemicals...my point is that honey produced without putting chemicals in the hive is a differant product, one that many people are willing to pay more for. in fact, i would bet that most people that buy honey from beekeepers (or at health food stores) would assume that no chemicals are put in the hive...and would be shocked to learn otherwise. deknow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:11:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: CCD Real or fake In-Reply-To: <20070327.055347.375.2287432@webmail50.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>Are you planning to re-stock your dead-outs or will you wait until you get lab results?<<< I've already ordered the bees. I know it's not a brood disease. It's either restock the equipment or burn it. I'll gamble. Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:14:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: introducing virgins to mating nucs In-Reply-To: <20070327025331.84982.qmail@web51608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 26-Mar-07, at 9:53 PM, Dee Lusby wrote: > > Always said we had high 90% to 95% success rate in dropping > in virgin queens and no fighting noticed while doing, for > she would take on the scent of the first bees touching her > and act like a supercedure queen FWIW, with royal court all > around her within very few minutes. > Hi Dee & all What is the advantage of introducing virgin queens instead of queen cells? Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W PS: 19C today, all hives bringing in yellow pollen and tan pollen. Still snow on the ground but disappearing fast. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:32:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic has its problems too. In-Reply-To: <20070327.122442.1570.1784339@webmail07.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: > > Unfortunately, there was no link to the > study. > > I googled for any study (organic nutrients higher study) and found some interesting studies. Here is a recent one by the British gov. reported by the Independent. http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article2283928.ece which found that organic is not as friendly to the environment as it is supposed to be. Plus, the organic milk was higher in vitamin E, which is not necessarily a good thing, depending on whose study you want to believe. Most of the other "studies" were by organic groups so a bit suspect. There was one by the US EPA that found something interesting. There will be uptake of certain minerals by plants and some will be greater than others. The soil in the area is the first thing that determines this. Adding supplements is the next. You have to bring in things from away to do any good since all you do if you compost the plants that grow there is to maintain a static system. Think fertilizer, garbage and manure as being from away. That is where to get any mineral additions that the local plants might need for good growth. Turns out the one thing that works the best for a soil supplement, as found by the EPA, is sewage sludge. When Maine's Organic group tried to get it approved, it was shot down by the hobby growers. It should be welcomed as it completes the loop for human activity. Commercial growers use it. So one would think that they would have the healthier produce. (The "heavy metal" problem was solved long ago.) As far as nutrients go, it would be nice to say we get more nutrients from a stalk of organic celery than a stalk of commercially grown, but we will not eat just one stalk and will still get all the nutrients we need. (Those polyphenols are in most plants in varying degree. Grape juice will take care of any you might miss in that celery stalk. Or a glass of wine.) There is a basic fact. We are living longer, healthier lives. There are all sorts of diseases we just do not have that are caused by mineral deficiencies. If our soil was deficient, that would show in hospital admissions. Not so. Instead, our problem is not that we do not get enough nutrients, it is that we have too many and are overweight. Which gets us back to honey. There is no difference between my honey if I was organic or if I use oxalic acid (which is OK in the EU for organic but not the US).. Other than price. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:57:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Chemical honey In-Reply-To: <20070327.082337.1712.1373043@webmail42.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can we get a bit real on chemicals in honey. The way some are portraying it is that the bad chemical beekeeper, Snidely Whiplash, is pouring nasty stuff all over creation and poisoning us all, but mostly on Prucilla Pureheart who is always in danger. But they, Lance Sterling, will come to the rescue with their "pure" honey. The characterization is laughable. The characterizers slander the majority of beekeepers. They throw mud at all of us who are responsible but use "chemicals", whatever in the world that means. Truth is, most all beekeepers are responsible when it comes to producing honey for sale. If you think, for maybe a few seconds, you will realize that honey comes from supers, (pause while you ponder that) and those supers are not put on until a set period expires after any treatments are done to a colony. In most cases treatments are done well after the supers are taken off, not before, since most are fall treatments and are isolated to deeps, where the bees and brood are. Not the honey. The honey left with the supers (Pause for additional pondering.). Therefore, the supers never come in contact with anything added to the colony, and neither does the honey. That is why there has not been any difference between organic and non-organic honey when they have been tested. The argument that organic honey is somehow better is both not sustainable and Bienenfurzluft. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:37:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: CCD Real or fake In-Reply-To: <000001c7706d$c89ac1c0$6401a8c0@NOTEBOOK> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 27-Mar-07, at 7:45 AM, Dick Marron wrote: > > I was sublimating it. (Heating the powder) I've done this for years > now > without incident and good mite drops. This system is not as > detrimental to > the bees. I agree with the wrong time of year. I waited too late > expecting a > fall crop. Had I been home I'd have treated in Aug. Bob Harrison > wrote on > this list that if you don't clean them up in Aug, you are going to > lose > bees. SO: clean them up in early spring, then 2x in Aug or so will > be my > schedule. Any comments? Hi Dick & all My understanding of oxalic acid is that it cannot penetrate the cells to kill mites there. Shortly after your treatment a new crop of mites will emerge. This is why oxalic is used when there is no brood. Suggest you treat with formic acid in August followed up with an oxalic treatment in Nov or early Dec(weather permitting) when packing hives for winter. I consider the Nov treatment to be the most effective spring treatment as you are knocking down most of the mites remaining. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 03:07:01 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Chemical honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 1. i made it very clear that i wasn't painting the use of chemicals is bad...just differant. 2. "slander" implies a mistruth...the fact that most beekeepers use certain chemicals is truth....as is information regarding those chemicals. deknow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:53:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: taste, the value of Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is $15/10 oz "organic" honey snake oil? I’ll bet I pay pretty close to that for my own five to ten gallons of honey each year by the time all is said and done. But I get to decide for myself whether my honey is worth its weight in gold and the answer is “almost but not quite.” The enjoyment I get from replacing dead outs makes up the difference. It’s a bit like going fishing. By the time you buy the boat the tackle, the license and the gas, that fish probably costs you fifty bucks a pound. I agree that the label “Organic” does not by itself make the honey better. I also think that to a large extent it is the people who pay those high prices that create a mystic about organic for themselves. More power to them. I don’t think they would agree that they are being ripped off. Around here (Pacific NW) a lot of people who use organic growing methods are forgoing the hassle and expense of getting certified. They sell mostly locally to restaurants and at local markets, and count on establishing personal relationships with their customers. They are also discouraged by the fact that big box stores are getting on the organic bandwagon, putting downward pressure on prices. Many of them also feel that these big businesses are making the organic designation less meaningful by their influence on the standard. Organic farmers, beekeepers and customers are not just concerned with the end product as has been pointed out several times on this and other threads. So even if the quality of the product was the same, they would still choose a product for the way it is produced. Many of them go to great lengths to learn the whole story of how their food got their table. I respect that. I don’t necessarily do it though. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 04:45:41 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Chemical honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > that honey comes from supers, (pause while you ponder that) and those > supers are not put on until a set period expires after any treatments are > done to a colony. most are fall treatments and are isolated to deeps, > where the bees and brood are. Not the honey. The honey left with the > supers Therefore, the supers never come in contact with anything added to > the colony, and neither does the honey. That is why there has not been any > difference between organic and non-organic honey when they have been > tested. This above is not true. If bees are treated with things like fluvalinates or antibitics these will get easily into the wax of the supers ( fluvalinates) and honey (antibiotics) even in cases when supers are not on during medications. The supers get these residues by the bees. The Danes had a nice stude a few years back They coloured winter feed sugar at fall green with a food grade dye. Let the colonies overwinter and develop the normal way in spring and took first extracton of pale green coloured honey from supers that were added in spring. Bees do not use stored food without mixing it with the incoming nectar that they are handling at that moment. As the brood area is expanding in the lower boxes they will empty the winter feed cells and some part ot it will be stored with the new honey into supers. This will of course depend on the situation. Will be more if the hives gets throught the winter with lots of stores and very little in hives that fall near starvation before summer flow. Also some part of wax is taken from below and mixed into cappings and walls in new boxes. Also ropolis is moved this way. And the bees travel by foot in the hive passing from brood boxes into supers. Travel stain in supers is known by most of the beekeepers. Just walking from old frames into new will carry some residues. It is very good practice treating only when supers are not on. It will reduce dramatically the residues in supers. But it is an illusion to think that this will mean 0 ppm residues in wax and honey of supers. Bees use all that they have and mix it all the time with what is coming in. Remember the studies with radioactive markers. After feeding only few bees almost all bees had the marker into them after only few hours. These abowe are among the reasons that state in Finland that bee hives treted with antibiotics ( only tetracyclines allowed) can not be harvested for the honey collected within next 100 days. Not even form supers that were not on during the treatment. In our short summer this means that if hive is trated in spring honey from the whole summer can not be sold for human consumption. Ari Seppälä Finland ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 08:03:41 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Austrian Spa Uses 'Bee Air' to Treat Respiratory Problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii > i'd be suprised if the levels of any mold/fungi in hive air > would be enough to cause any discomfort I've heard it said that inhaled allergens (tiny particles of dried venom, bee hairs) may be linked to the development of life-threatening allergies to bee stings - in beekeepers and even family members that don't handle bees. Don't know if its true. Have the folk deliberately sniffing hive air considered this? all the best Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:05:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: CCD Real or fake MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Marron wrote: > Bob Harrison wrote on > this list that if you don't clean them up in Aug, you are going to lose > bees. Agree with that. This was the conclusion from work that Dr Stephen Martin spoke about at the Central Association Leamington weekend in November 2001. I wrote about it in our newsletter in February 2002: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/Newsletters/February2002.htm. My preference is for thymol crystals. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:26:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Chemical honey In-Reply-To: <4609854C.7030605@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill, I think we pretty much agree. Do you ever wonder if any honey/syrup/nectar gets transferred from the "chemical" brood chamber to the honey supers once the honey supers are put on? Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:29:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Sterilizing Plastic frames In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "sterilize?" Why? What are you hoping to cure/accomplish? I've put them in the freezer and scraped them pretty good. Wax moth do a real good job of cleaning them as well! Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:16:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: introducing virgins to mating nucs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob, What is the advantage of introducing virgin queens instead of queen cells? Reply: With a virgin you get queen with instant fight ability which with supercedure means alot in taking out old queen, though many times she will act like a mother daughter combo and both will lay on same frame even in beginning. With a queen cell you have something that can be torn down and chewed out by workers,and/or queen jostled inside to deform wings in transport prior to putting in. Also sometimes the queen cells never emerge a queen too for some reason. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:15:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I only wish you were right Lloyd, Oxalic acid may be 'permitted' in some countries, but it is not registered as a medicament in the EU. If you have any definite information regarding it legal use in the EU, I would appreciate your sharing it with us so that the Irish authorities might permit its use. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd Spear" > > In most (or all) of Europe, where it is not legal to use fluvalinate, > coumaphous, tylosin, and other dangerous chemicals that are perfectly > legal > to use in US beehives, Oxalic Acid has been extensively tested and is > perfectly legal to use. Moreover, it is a natural component of honey. > Any > statement that promoting its use in the US is a "cavalier attitude" is > just > wrong *WRONG*. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:19:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: correction and apology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All: I received this message this morning, with a request to forward it on to BEE-L. I too should apologize for passing on incorrect information. My sincere apologies to Shumans Apiary and all other who this has impacted, including all memberd of the CCD Working Group. Sincerely, Aaron Morris >Correction and Apology from Maryann Frazier >At the SABA meeting on Saturday, March 24, 2007 I gave a presentation >on Colony Collapse Disorder. In that talk, I stated that Shuman >Apiaries, Inc. had cancelled all of their orders for packages and >queens. On Monday, I had a phone conversation with Mrs. Shuman who >informed me that this is not the case. I apologize for presenting this >inaccurate information and for not contacting the Shumans directly >before making this statement. -- -- Maryann Frazier Senior Extension Associate Department of Entomology 501 ASI Building University Park, PA 16802 Phone: (814) 865-4621 Fax: (814) 865-3048 Email: mxt15@psu.edu ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:50:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: CCD Real or fake MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Darrel wrote: >>>My understanding of oxalic acid is that it cannot penetrate the cells to kill mites there.<<<< For a long time I didn't think anything did. Recently I read somewhere that Formic acid kills mites in the capped cells. Did I dream that? >>>>Suggest you treat with formic acid in August followed up with an oxalic treatment in Nov or early Dec(weather permitting) when packing hives for winter.<<< This is really helpful information. This is only the second time I learned this. My track record (of learning) says that I need 1 more time. I treated in Nov with O/A. I wouldn't recommend it in the cold. When I took hives apart, I found that the powder sublimated in a very limited area. Then I came to where Bill Truesdale wrote: >>>In most cases treatments are done well after the supers are taken off, not before, since most are fall treatments and are isolated to deeps, where the bees and brood are.<<<< The trouble I see here is that it presumes the season is over in July sometime. For some this may be true but commercial beekeepers aren't letting their bees sit idle. Having the equipment, they move to where there is a flow. In Aug. New England is rife with goldenrod. (I was hoping for a crop that didn't appear). So: A dilemma. Treat in Aug. and make winter bees. Don't treat in Aug. because you have honey supers on. What do you suppose happens? Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:10:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Pure Honey and Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I have to apologize if I misstated the facts. I was not aware that there might be a difference between "permitted" and "registered". AFAIK, in the US nothing is permitted unless it is registered. My sole source of knowledge concerning European use of Oxalic for Varroa comes from members of this list. That said, in the very recent past there have been comments from beekeepers in Italy, France, and the UK concerning the successful use of Oxalic, and I seem to recall similar comments from Germany in the more distant past. Didn't we just hear today that use of Oxalic does not disqualify honey from qualification as Organic in a European country? Doesn't that acknowledge that Oxalic is being used and is ok? -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:02:50 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Pure Honey and Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Didn't we just hear today that use of Oxalic does not disqualify honey > fromqualification as Organic in a European country? Doesn't that > acknowledge that Oxalic is being used and is ok? > No. It is permitted by EU organic rules and can be used if permitted by the veterinary officials. This differs a bit from country to country but vast majority permits its use. EU has many rules, and not all go exact the same way in every country. A bit like different state rules in US. Ari Seppälä Finland ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 17:29:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Pure Honey and Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lloyd, I was at the Ulster Beekeeper's Association convention at Greenmount last week, the main speaker was Preben Kristiansen,currently working in Sweden as a Disease Advisor for the Swedish Beekeepers' Association, and who has worked in a similar capacity in Denmark and Norway; In one of his lectures he showed a slide with the following information: Denmark Registered Medicament is Apiguard and the Allowed medicaments are The organic acids and essential oils, Bayvarol Finland Registered Medicament is Apistan and the The organic acids and essential oils. Norway Registered Medicament none Allowed medicaments are The organic acids Sweden Registered Medicament Apistan, Apiguard and the Allowed medicaments are The organic acids and essential oils >From my own knowlege: In Ireland (The Republic) the licenced medicaments are Bayvarol and Apiguard, In the UK the licenced medicaments are Bayvarol, Apistan, Apiguard there is ongoing discussions with the UK government about Oxalic Acid, the Medications Board are not at all keen to allow it to be used. As far as I know the only place where an oxalic acid mix is licenced is in Northern Germany where Andermatt have obtained a licence for Oxuvar which is a package of dilute oxalic acid and a packet of sucrose. The EU has decided that there is no need to place a maximum Residual level of oxalic acid in honey. I stand to be corrected Ruary ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:18:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Chemical honey In-Reply-To: <016001c770da$cff57560$0300000a@ari71aa1cf24c5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> I wrote- those supers are not put on until a set period expires after >> any treatments are done to a colony. most are fall treatments and >> are isolated to deeps, > Ari Seppälä wrote: > If bees are treated with things like fluvalinates or antibitics these > will get easily into the wax of the supers ( fluvalinates) and honey > (antibiotics) even in cases when supers are not on during medications. > The supers get these residues by the bees. (snip) > > The Danes had a nice stude a few years back They coloured winter feed > sugar at fall green with a food grade dye. (snip) > > Also some part of wax is taken from below and mixed into cappings and > walls in new boxes. (snip) > > It is very good practice treating only when supers are not on. It will > reduce dramatically the residues in supers. But it is an illusion to > think that this will mean 0 ppm residues in wax and honey of supers. > Bees use all that they have and mix it all the time with what is > coming in. Remember the studies with radioactive markers. After > feeding only few bees almost all bees had the marker into them after > only few hours. (snip) > > These abowe are among the reasons that state in Finland that bee hives > treted with antibiotics ( only tetracyclines allowed) can not be > harvested for the honey collected within next 100 days. First, it is always great to hear form you. Second, I apologize to the moderators for the long quote. I have no problem with your comments on wax since I agree with them, but the issue is honey. We both say the same thing about treating with no supers on and you note, as do I, that there is a time interval before supers can be put on. The problem with the study is the dye does not have a half life and it was dyed sugar syrup so went directly into becoming honey. You could check that colony years after the test and there may still be green dye, especially in the end frames. Some of the "chemicals" are not soluble in water or honey but they do end up in wax.. There they can last for a long time because they are not in contact with air or water. They break down quickly if exposed to air, water and light. Which means they would not last long in nectar or honey. so if the called for times were followed, the residue would be near zero before the supers went on. The approved chemicals in the EU, formic and oxalic, are soluble and oxalic is in sugar syrup, like the dye. I am sure there is a time specified by Finland to allow both to dissipate, which they do, so there is no contamination. That has been shown in studies which measured the level of the formic and oxalic acids over time. They drop to normal honey levels. You even allow antibiotics, but again, with a time after treatment before supers can be put on. In this area, I think the US time is much too short. I do not use them. Of all the things added to a colony when instructions are followed, I think antibiotics could end up in honey. They tend to be administered in spring while most other treatments are after the supers have been removed. It all gets back to the question, is organic honey purer than off the shelf honey? So far the answer is no, which means all the honey producers are following label directions. There may be honey that is rejected by packers. I leave that to the commercial folks to address since I do not know, but until another test comes along, we have one in the US and one in Europe that say beekeepers are ethical and responsible, be they organic or non-organic. That only makes sense, otherwise you are out of business. Which is my point. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:34:55 +0100 Reply-To: pencaemawr@f2s.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Burgess Subject: Re: Pure Honey and Oxalic Acid In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > > Didn't we just hear today that use of Oxalic does not disqualify honey > from > qualification as Organic in a European country? Doesn't that acknowledge > that Oxalic is being used and is ok? The Soil Association (the main UK Organic body) allows the use of : "Formic acid, lactic acid, acetic acid, oxalic acid, menthol, thymol, eucalyptol, or camphor for the control of varroa, and any veterinary treatments which are compulsory under national or community legislation." As far as I am aware only thymol is available as an approved treatment for varroa in the UK (Apiguard) I believe that Germany have now formally approved OA in solution, but I have no knowledge of the situation in other countries on the continent. So far in the UK OA has been categorised as a "non-medicinal curative substance", a sort of recognition that, despite the well established and safe use of OA, the cost of formal registration as a medicine will never be met by beekeepers or industry. The Irish authorities take a much more stringent view of these matters, and the UK situation could change. Regards, John Burgess ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:34:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD Real or fake In-Reply-To: <000f01c77140$1c343e60$6401a8c0@NOTEBOOK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Marron wrote: > Then I came to where Bill Truesdale wrote: > > >>>> In most cases treatments are done well after the supers are taken off, >>>> > not before, since most are fall treatments and are isolated to deeps, where > the bees and brood are.<<<< > > The trouble I see here is that it presumes the season is over in July > sometime. Not sure how you came to view July as the fall. I do not treat until November in Maine. Yes it is cold, but OA can be administered down to freezing. I extract twice, one in late July early Aug and once in September. Even things like Apistan have the strips go on after the last super is off, usually in September in Maine which means they would be removed in November. I hoped that Ari would step in on your use of OA, but my recollections on its use is only one time in the fall and you might get by with two in the spring. If you give two in the fall you are asking for disaster because you will weaken the bees and they probably will not survive the winter. This is an area which I hope Ari will address since he knows what is recommended in Europe. Plus, I do not like the vapor method. It seems the EU uses the drip method, but again, wait for Ari. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:00:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Juan_Carlos_Fern=E1ndez_Campos?= Subject: Long time out, ... back with question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi evrebody, Long time since last time i wrote, working very far from a PC, so... I=B4m glad to see a big lotof messages in may box, all of you were very buzzy!!! When otu i read an article, on floor types, and one of them call all my atention, "Happykeeper or Legris floor" from a french manufacturer named Jean Pierre Le Pabic, any expiriences outthere? The article said that this was very helpfull with Barroa, with no other treatment for 6 yers, the date of the article is arround 1993, from "Apicultura Moderna" in Mexico. Regards Juan Carlos _____________________________________________________________ =BB=BB Sistema de Correos Facultad de Cultura F=EDsica -- Camag=FCey -- Cuba =AB=AB =BB Administrado por GESPRO (Grupo de Estudio de Software y Proyectos) =AB =BB Este mensaje ha sido analizado con MDaemon Kaspersky Antivirus =AB ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:06:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Jeff_Peck?= Subject: Treating Packaged Bees for Mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Do any beekeepers on the Bee-L treat their packages before they are installed, with powered sugar or oxalic drip? Most beek's are anxious to hive their newly arrived packages, and worry about treating later. I think it would be better to treat while they are broodless and clustered, as all packages are. I have seen this in a German video on 'shook' swarms. They were laid on their sides for 24 hours to get a mite drop. Sounds like a great plan to me. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:10:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD Real or fake Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:45:16 -0400, Dick Marron wrote: SO: clean them up in early spring, then 2x in Aug or so will be my >schedule. Any comments? I've had success using Api-Var or last year Apiguard one time in early Sept (manufacturer reccomends 2 treatments) on high mite loaded hives to knock back the mite level until we do a single nov/early dec OA sublimation or drip (if warm enough). I have a freind who uses formic early in place of the thymol and then OA later and he too has good success. We only do the early sept treatment in yards with a high mite load, since they are out of production then and here we can have a decent sept flow. We do no spring treatment either and over winter. A good broodless OA treatment seems to be enough to skip the spring treatments. With brood building up in spring, my experience is no soft mite treatments are very effective, kind of an uphill battle. As they say all beekeeping is local, I would imagine your broodless period comes later in CT then here in MN so that could be important. Keeping a carniolan or russian stock is in your favor too in the schedule I describe. You want the brood laying to shut down early. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:41:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Fall treatment for Varroa and Fall Honey Flows MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Someone asked how producers treat for Varroa when they have important fall honey flows. In this immediate area we have good, but not substantial, Goldenrod flows beginning in late August and we are immediately adjacent (100 US miles) to areas that have very substantial Goldenrod flows. I have been part of and observed several stratigies for treating for Varroa while acknowleging those flows. 1. Pull supers and treat with fluvalinate or coumaphous for 1-2 weeks during dearths in August. Initially several beekeepers tried this, but I have not heard of its use in the past few years. Disadvantages were resistance to chemicals, a lot of extra heavy lifting, expensive when considering the necessity to treat again in the late fall, etc. 2. Forgo the goldenrod flow and leave it for the bees. Pull supers and treat in late August. IMO, this is gaining in favor. Some are treating in August with formic and again in December/January with Oxalic. Some are treating with fluvalinate or coumaphous in August and oxalic in December/January, and some are only using fluvalinate or coumaphous in August (there are fewer and fewer of these). 3. Go for the Goldenrod flow with no August treatment and treat with whatever in October. There are fewer and fewer of these as the result is numerous hive collaspes in September and October and high winter losses. High winter losses may be due to the inability of the hive to produce a full cycle of varroa free bees for the winter cluster. We have some areas of NYS where the Goldenrod flow is the only flow with a surplus, but the size of the surplus can be substantial. Some members of Bee-L are in these areas. I would love to hear from them what has and has not been successful. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 23:13:53 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Pure Honey and Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John wrote: > and the UK situation could change I t= Hi All=0A =0AJohn wrote: =0A> and the UK situation could change=0A=0A=0AI t= hink that it has.=0A =0AThere are three approved varroacides in the UK: Bay= varol (flumethrin), Apistan (tau-fluvalinate) and Apiguard (thymol), and be= ekeepers can legally apply them as long as they stick to the label requirem= ents. The advice on 'non-approved generic substances' is that, essentially= , their use by beekeepers is illegal. However Vets can prescribe the use o= f additional varroacides under certain conditions, and oxalic acid is one o= f these.=0A =0AThis document explains all, and is a good read anyway as it = explains non-chemical methods of control too and has nice pictures and diag= rams:=0Ahttp://beebase.csl.gov.uk/pdfs/managing_varroa.pdf=0A =0AThe crucia= l text explaining the official position on the use of non-approved substanc= es is below. =0AFWIW many UK beekeepers have already adopted the use of so= me of these compounds and persuading them to give them up to meet the curre= nt regulations will be quite a challenge. For example, oxalic acid is popu= lar, and from extensive research on the continent dribbling solutions betwe= en frames while there is very little brood well away from the honey season = has very little risk to the operator, to the bees, and is unlikely to leave= significant residues in subsequent honey harvests. When its use is unregu= lated things start to go awry, with mode of application, timing and amounts= variable and sometimes posing a risk to bees or beekeepers.=0A =0Aall the = best=0A =0AGavin.=0A =0AUse of non-approved generic substances=0AIn many Eu= ropean countries, including the UK, some beekeepers have used generic natur= ally=0Aoccurring substances including organic acids (such as formic acid, l= actic acid and oxalic acid) and=0Aessential oils (such as thymol) as part o= f their varroa control programme.=0AIn most cases, no formal testing of eff= icacy or safety of these substances has taken place, and=0Atherefore there = is a danger that they might be ineffective, harmful to bees, the environmen= t or=0Athe user, or leave harmful or otherwise undesirable residues in bee = products. Beekeepers=0Acontemplating their use need to be aware that person= al protective clothing (such as gloves, face=0Aand eye protection, and resp= iratory protection) may be necessary. Beekeepers should also be=0Aaware tha= t they may be liable to be prosecuted should the routine sampling and testi= ng of=0Aproducts for residues find positive results.=0AThe legal position r= elating to the use of such generic substances is complex, and is likely to = be=0Aaffected by changes in the veterinary medicines legislation due to com= e into force in October=0A2005. This legislation controls the manufacture, = marketing, supply, administration and residues of=0Aveterinary medicinal pr= oducts (VMPs).=0A =0AUsing varroacides=0AUnder the existing legislation, it= is not legal to market or to administer a VMP that is not=0Aauthorised by = the VMD. However, an exception exists under the =A1prescribing cascade=A2. = Where no=0AVMP is authorised for a condition in a particular species this a= llows a veterinary surgeon to=0Aprescribe or administer certain other defin= ed categories of medicine under controlled conditions=0Aof use. In circumst= ances where a veterinarian concluded, on the basis of his/her professional = and=0Aclinical judgement, that an authorised product was not appropriate in= a particular case (because=0Aof problems with resistance for example), thi= s may currently allow the use of lactic acid, but not=0Aformic acid and oxa= lic acid.=0AIn the new legislation it is anticipated that a provision will = be included to allow a veterinarian=0Aacting under the cascade to use a pro= duct authorised in another Member State (subject to certain=0Aconditions an= d restrictions) or to use an extemporaneous preparation provided the active= =0Aingredient has a Maximum Residue Limit (MRL) defined. As lactic, formic,= and oxalic acids all are=0Alisted as not requiring an MRL (in Annex II of = Council Regulation (EEC) No 2377/90) they will be=0Aable to be used under p= rescription by a veterinarian in accordance with the prescribing cascade=0A= provisions. Further information on administration controls and the prescrib= ing cascade is available=0Aon the VMD website (www.vmd.gov.uk). Advice on t= he current provisions is in AMELIA guidance=0Anote no. 8 and on the new pro= visions in Veterinary Medicines Guidance Note 15. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:20:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Treatment timing was CCD Real or fake In-Reply-To: <000f01c77140$1c343e60$6401a8c0@NOTEBOOK> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 28-Mar-07, at 8:50 AM, Dick Marron wrote: > > So: A dilemma. Treat in Aug. and make winter bees. Don't treat in Aug. > because you have honey supers on. What do you suppose happens? Hi Dick & all In Southern Ontario we get a heavy nectar flow in July till early Aug. August is a nectar dearth here until almost mid September, then the goldenrod flow starts(early goldenrod never seems to provide much nectar) and goes for several weeks and is usually almost as strong as the July flow(nothing last year). A well respected researcher(I won't identify the speaker without permission) told me, at the NY/Ont joint meetings several years ago, that August was the best time to use formic as the temperatures are high. She said to remove the honey supers then treat with formic for as long as you can, then replace the supers when the nectar flow starts. I do treat this way but only if my drop tests indicate high mite levels. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:34:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: House Hearing on CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI - derived from the Entomol list: A hearing on "Colony Collapse Disorder" is set for March 29, 2007. Live audio will be available. See below. The House Agriculture Subcommittee on Horticulture and Organic Agriculture has scheduled a hearing for March 29, 2007 starting at 10:00 AM in 1302 Longworth House Office Building to review colony collapse disorder (CCD) in honey bee colonies across the United States, and implications for agriculture and the food we eat and possible ecosystem impacts. Live Audio will be available at the start of the House Ag hearing, and can be accessed at _http://agriculture.house.gov/hearings/audio.html_ (http://agriculture.house.gov/hearings/audio.html) . FYI, the CoE has also prepared and submitted a statement for the record. The statement, an executive summary and media advisory can be accessed at _http://pollinator.org/press_kit.htm_ (http://pollinator.org/press_kit.htm) under "Colony Collapse Disorder." A significant part of the statement is focused on broadening the hearing record to encompass native pollinator and ecosystem issues-a desire indicated by Subcommittee staff. The witness list will include (1) Dr. May Berenbaum, who chaired a recent National Academy report on the "Status of Pollinators: Monitoring and Prevention of their Decline in North America;" (2) a panel of researchers; and (3) a panel of producers and bee keepers. The witness list will be posted on the Committee's web site at _http://agriculture.house.gov/hearings/schedule.html_ (http://agriculture.house.gov/hearings/schedule.html) on March 28. Key Hill Staff: + Subcommittee Staff Director-Keith Jones (202) 225-6238 keith.jones@mail.house.gov + Minority Staff Professional: Pam Miller (202) 225-0029 pam.miller@mail.house.gov CoE also alerted ag LA's and other hill staff about the hearing, again principally as a way of elevating the pollinator issue. Feel free to share this information with others who may be interested. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************