From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:52:27 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8A7480AA for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFkpIJ016612 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:17 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0704B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Status: RO Content-Length: 268016 Lines: 6273 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 21:04:48 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Anyone selling tracheal-mite susceptible stock is either lazy or incompetent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> ...if your queen supplier sells you queens that are >> still susceptible to tracheal mites, find a new queen >> supplier. This is the 21st Century, and anyone selling >> tracheal-mite susceptible stock is either lazy or >> incompetent. > I tend to agree with you, but I wonder, how one is to know, > until losses occur or bees are pulled apart? Is there any > sure way to know when purchasing queens, other than buying > strains known for the trait, regardless of other considerations? Simple. You ask. If they hem and haw, you hang up. If they laugh and say "of course we bred in t-mite resistance years ago", you place an order. I've yet to hear of a queen supplier lying about something so basic, as it would be trivial to verify the claim. > And, if a breeder has TM resistant bees this year can we > know that will be true next year? I'd say that once a producer gets decent stock, they tend to keep that stock from degrading, but this is yet another reason for my oft-repeated refrain: "The Price of Honey Is Eternal Vigilance". > Apparently the trait is all over the map in bees from > popular US queen suppliers, at least a few years back. Caveat Emptor. The popular saying "Trust in Allah, but tie your camel" is garbled and misleading in the extreme. The actual phrase, as used in places where camels are found, is "Trust in Allah, AND tie your camel". (The camel-owners know that faith aside, camels are sure to wander off.) Best of all, know your queen producer, look him in the eye on a regular basis, and listen to him. Let him look YOU in the eye and realize that you know where he lives, and are not hesitant about "visiting". Works wonders. :) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 18:29:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in cells In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst: Well said Peter concerning actual queens laying multiple eggs in cells. Happens with new queens, hives too small, early spring start ups, and sometimes following killoffs of field force with spraying forcing nurse bees to hit the field faster. Makes one wonder how many good queens are sacrificed when nothing wrong with them, and in actuality they may be the better queens for productivity and egg laying for large colonies. How does one seperate these type queens from laying workers by the way? Are there any keys to look for for differences? Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 20:58:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: globe and mail article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Anybody who relies on CNN is going to have a distorted idea of what is happening in the world, and this issue is sufficiently subtle that many are getting it very wrong. I doubt I am "getting it very wrong ". I think I have a clear picture of the people with their hands out. I guess CNN is not correct. The channel was close to the CNN channel. I think its called the "Washington today" channel. I believe it was last Wednesday around 730 Am the channel broadcast the entire ag hearings on CCD. I heard Wenger, Ellingston, Brandi, the beekeeper from New York which I have spoke with many times but can't recall his name right now and Richard Adee testify plus heard all the questions and answers. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 21:03:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: globe and mail article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Jim Doan was the other beekeeper at the hearings. The name came to me after I sent the email. Sorry! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 22:14:03 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: globe and mail article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Jim seems to think beekeepers are for the most part too stupid to > train. I resent that. I said nothing of the sort. What I said was that most beekeepers lack skills and/or motivation. I said nothing about ability. Let me provide some very specific examples of what I meant: 1) Please tell us where you currently get media appropriate for culturing foulbrood. If you make it, list your ingredients and recipe. 2) Please tell us what your favorite stain is for highlighting nosema spores on slides when looking at midgut contents. What is the stain you'd like to use, but can't afford? What are the minimum and maximum size of nosema spores in microns, and what does this imply for large-scale screening efforts? 3) Lastly, please explain to us in brief how you prepare a sample for an electron microscope. :) (Hey, you said "electron microscope", and you have not made any correction, so I'll take you at your word that you have some hands-on experience!) The above (except for #3) should be trivial if you are planning on teaching others how to "diagnose", so any delay in responding will indicate that you yourself lack specific experience and factual knowledge basic to even the simple types of diagnosis you propose to teach. (Note that I said nothing about intelligence.) > I really can not believe there are beekeepers around > (except maybe Jim) which believe that the current die off > is because of a single NEW problem. Something else for me to resent, as your summation is not only clearly at odds with what I said, but both puts words in my mouth I never spoke, and implies assumptions in my head that I would never make. (As always, I meant what I said, and I said what I meant.) I don't think that we have evidence yet to support a claim that CCD is or is not caused by a single factor, nor do I think that the evidence currently at hand supports any claim that the factor(s) are new. In fact, the exact symptoms being called "CCD" have been seen before, at least in the mid-1970s and in the 1960s. I'm not certain about "disappearing disease" symptoms prior to the 1960s, as I can't seem to find clear symptom lists prior to the 1960s. (Anyone with a clue on this, please e-mail me.) So, to summarize: 1) You proposed tooling up with tools that may not be appropriate, as no one knows what tools are required at this point. 2) You proposed educating and equipping beekeepers when a better investment would be to fund a ramp-up of capacity and throughput at existing labs, where "quality control" can be more than an empty phrase. 3) What we clearly don't need is yet another layer of bureaucracy to hold its hand out for the few dollars that will be allocated to "CCD", even if it has a laudable goal. We have existing groups that train people on a regular basis, so learn to play well with others, rather than creating yet another stand-alone effort. 4) We don't need ANY efforts other than "R&D" right now. When "R&D" comes up with something akin to "an answer", THEN we can decide how to socialize whatever best practices are considered appropriate. We may need every single dollar for the "R&D". But other than the above, we are in perfect agreement. :) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 00:31:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: comb replacement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >"2. Virus contamination on comb is real and only solved by comb replacement (boxes can be saved by power washing)" I have been replacing old brood comb this year, and I have some questions about how to go about this in the most effective and hopefully efficient way possible. Specifically: 1. How many years can you safely use brood comb? It seems like you could have virus infected comb after one season or if you are lucky it might not happen for three or four seasons, and even then you wouldn't necessarily know for sure. Having to replace comb every year would be a real drag. 2. I know that Varroa are always present in my hives even after treating. (I have been using formic acid) I try to keep the levels down below threshold, but if viruses are carried by the mites is there really any threshold level below which we are safe? If so what is it? Has it gotten lower recently? 3. I have been cleaning up the frames and boxes with a hive tool and then flame torching all the surfaces with one of those butane torches; the kind you use to sweat copper tubing. Is this an effective enough sterilization measure? It seems to me it would be more effective than power washing. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 01:06:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Disappearing Disease MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob: I'm not going to disagree with you about adversity causing people to be more proactive with respect to bee management. Still, its a hard way to learn to be better beekeepers, if one has to suffer drastic losses of bees in order to do so. That approach is what happens when you have to guess as to cause. And yes, I agree, the disappearing disease of years ago, especially the cases in the 1960s sound exactly the same as CCD, from symptoms of the disorder, to beekeeper reactions and postulating of causes, to the inability of scientists to find a cause. It was also severe and in many states. And its that exact (not simply similar) set of symptoms that cause me to question whether we need to invoke anything new to explain CCD. Maybe we have something new, but the simpler answer is that its something we've never solved, just cycling through, but over a larger area and more severe than usual. So, if its NOT new, then remember -- presumably we didn't have either mite in the 60s, no imidacloprid or other neonicotinics, and the scientists did not find any evidence of high virus loads at that time. Best that could be thought up at the time was improved nutrition -- and the lesson from that, if its nutrition, we sure haven't made much progress in 40 years. But no one said it was a mite/virus PMS issue in the 60s. I also know that genetics were suspected at the time -- and I have been talking to Bill Wilson about what happened back then, not just reading papers. It could still be a genetic issue. I'm betting we've been missing something important all these years -- and I hope that 40 years of advances in analytical technology - covering everything from virus detection, to improved ways of examining chemicals, to protenomics and genomics may finally give us an answer -- and you can fault the CCD Working Group for not being able to move faster -- but you have to realize that many of these new approaches are waiting in the wings, waiting to be applied as soon as some funds become available. Last that I checked, at least 12 projects were on the list of those that needed to be funded in order to complete the first level screening of acquired samples. The $100k approved by the NHB on March 23 will cover about 1/2 of these, the others will have to wait longer. The CCD is looking for another $122k just to cover the rudimentary work that needs to be done to cover the most likely causes. However, I think I've said all of the above before. And I don't think that Bob and I are that far apart on most issues. That said, some of today's statements just aren't true or can't be substantiated: "All the CCD hives contained mites & virus." That's just not true. Many had mites, but many did not. My team has looked at many CCD hives in several states and its not simply mites out of control. We've seen several operations where mites probably were a factor And we've seen operations where you'd be hard pressed to find any mites, now, at the time of collapse, or even months before. For example, how do you explain a large operation that had so few mites in the fall that a test of a new mite control agent couldn't be conducted as planned, yet 70% of the bees collapsed in Jan/Feb - still with virtually no mites in any samples. And this isn't an isolated case. The last CCD colonies that I saw two weeks ago in CA had never been to the east coast, had records to prove that mite control was being practiced, and that the effectiveness of the mite treatments was assessed in Nov and Jan by testing. These were colonies that collapsed in the midst of a rapid growth phase with new stores of nectar and pollen, lots of brood, and still no mites, and no evidence of a mite problem. As per all CCD hives having virus,, to the best of my knowledge, the CCD group only has the virus results from east coast samples from the fall and mid-winter. That's only a fraction of the samples taken to date. Since the west coast samples were collected in Feb and March, to the best of my knowledge, the analysis for virus has not been completed - or the results are just coming in. So, we just don't know whether ALL of the CCD colonies have virus. Please keep in mind, the presence of common viruses at background levels in bees does not mean that these viruses caused the CCD. However, I wouldn't be surprised if a virus was found to be the cause, given the symptoms, but it hasn't been identified yet. We also need to differentiate between seeing evidence of viruses in bees, and virus being a problem. If someone were to do PCR work on you, they'd likely find some smallpox virus (I assume like most of our generation you were vaccinated), maybe cold sore virus, etc. That doesn't mean you are dying of viruses. And most tests won't tell you if the virus is viable or not -- which is why a vaccination for smallpox could produce a detect. And, as to allegations that Dave had mites out of control in July of 2006 and the allegation that the CCD Group ignored this, wouldn't even take a peak. The CCD Working Group was not even constituted until January of 2007. Its a little hard to ignore something that allegedly happened months before the group was formed. And no, I don't want a bottle with pickled mites supposedly taken in July -- we can't do any meaningful analysis on this type of sample. And Dave was the first to admit to having problems with mites in 2006, as does the other beekeeper that you keep mentioning. In fact, as I said earlier today, many beekeepers admit to failures in management that may have contributed to the problem. But Dave and the other beekeeper that you keep bringing up aren't the only beekeepers in the U.S. with CCD problems. I've 169 others, and the list grows each week. I'm convinced that they didn't all have uncontrolled mites. You may contend that all of the bees are fine in CA and that they came out of the orchards in good shape. Many did, but some did not. Listen to Richard's testimony before the Congressional Committee. Talk to the beekeeper who got back 4 loads of dead outs over the last two weeks. Ask the growers who are threatening to sue for lost crop productivity this year (not many, thankfully, but some). Ask the beekeepers who struggled to replace failing colonies in the almonds (either their own or those of other beekeepers). Tell me that I didn't inspect and sample colonies still collapsing in the almonds 2nd week of March. We're not done with this thing yet. Jerry ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 01:24:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: USB microscopes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With Peter's help, we seem to have at least three choices. Rick's prices don't quite match. The MiScope is $275 for the basic scope. The higher price buys multiple light sources, etc. Since its compact with no objectives, parts hanging off, it seems to be tough, able to sustain being carried about. The QX5 at $29 would be a real bargain, where did you find it at that price? List is $99, discounted to $79. At $29, I agree, it could be a throw away. The Novatech price is in pounds, and I didn't look up the conversion. Has anyone used this scope? I like the over/under illumination of the QX5, and $29 would be a great price. At that price, I'd try one myself. The MiScope has some good software - it can take still photos, movies, and has built-in drawing and measurement tools. Do the others offer something similar? Rick said he could post some images - it would be interesting to compare all three. We'd be glad to publish a set of pictures taken by each scope on our web-site so that people could take a look - I certainly want to take Rick up on his offer. Thanks Jerry ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 05:29:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: "Disappearing Disease " MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/04/2007 02:00:34 GMT Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: virus contamination of comb ( directly related to varroa ) I know very little of viruses but my understanding has been that they can't exist viably (I am not sure whether they can be said to 'live') for very long separated from their victims. How do they persist on comb? For how long? Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 07:30:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: CCD- new symptoms or not In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some have posted that CCD is new while others note that it has happened in the past. One says the symptoms have not been seen before. Which is it? From what I have read so far, from people who have been involved in the work, is that it does have the same symptoms of other bee diseases and pathogens like stonebrood (a postulated cause of disappearing disease), a virus, and, to a lesser extent, mites. Certainly like to hear if the symptoms have never been seen before. The only place I have seen that is on this list. I realize that the cause might be new, but even that is still in the guess stage, at least from my perspective. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 07:45:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: "Disappearing Disease " In-Reply-To: <001401c77954$c4ded4a0$27bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > The CCD team totally discounts the Penn State inspector which reported a >high infestation of varroa in the hives of David Hackenburg in July of 2006 >( report on file). He recommended immediate treatment to save those hives. >If not the hives were doomed. A high level of Varroa and HTM was found in his bees in May. The samples are still available. He was told to treat at that time, too. Must be that he didn't, because the levels were still high in July. Now, that's two state inspectors saying the same thing, two months apart. I just have to wonder why their findings are being ignored. Mike ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 09:33:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in cells Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >How does one seperate these type queens from laying workers >by the way? Are there any keys to look for for differences? The difference between a colony with a queen laying multiple eggs and a colony of laying workers would be 1) queen-right colony has a queen 2) laying worker eggs are usually scattered, often on the sides of the cells 3) laying worker eggs develop into little tiny drones, queen eggs hatch out workers 4) queen-right hive will pick up if there are enough bees, a drone layer will fail If the queen looks good you can BOOST the colony by adding bees and brood from another hive. If the hive is very weak, you may want to cage the queen. Otherwise, just place the new brood frames next to the brood that is there. My treatment for laying workers is: DUMP them out away from the apiary. By the time the colony is that far gone, there really isn't anything left worth saving but the frames. pb PS. I don't believe that a laying worker hive will ever set itself aright; even if it could, it's extremely rare and not to be depended upon ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 14:51:25 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: comb replacement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Hi All Bob wrote about Diana Cox-Foster, reminding us that comb can be virus-contaminated. Steve asked: > 1. How many years can you safely use brood comb? It seems > like you could have virus infected comb after one season and Chris asked: > How do they persist on comb? For how long? Here (http://www.bbka.org.uk/articles/bee_diseases.php) it is stated that Sac Brood Virus becomes non-infective within a few weeks. Longer than many viruses away from their hosts, but not long enough to for re-infection from equipment vacated in the winter and re-occupied in the subsequent summer. Of the other picorna viruses more strongly associated with Parastic Mite Syndrome, I know nothing. Does anyone? Bob mentioned that Diana Cox-Foster's research, suggesting that comb renewal could be important to reduce virus load. Reading her papers (this one in particular): http://vir.sgmjournals.org/cgi/content/full/86/8/2281 .. it would seem that Varroa and its saliva does carry some picorna-like viruses and could be a vector, but also the queen lays virus-contaminated eggs and that worker to larva transmission takes place. Simply renewing comb is unlikely to break the cycle of infection with this and related viruses, and so I doubt that comb renewal could be justified on this issue alone. One of our regulars wrote this back in 1999: "Destroying older combs that are still in good shape is another of those things small-time beekeepers do to make sure that they stay small-time." Yet comb renewal has become a popular call - does anyone have concrete evidence of a benefit from comb renewal, beyond the possibility of relief from Foulbrood, Nosema and perhaps Chalkbrood? all the best Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 11:38:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: Anyone selling tracheal-mite susceptible stock is either lazy or incompetent Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> ...if your queen supplier sells you queens that are >>> still susceptible to tracheal mites, find a new queen >>> supplier. >> Is there any >> sure way to know when purchasing queens, other than buying >> strains known for the trait, regardless of other considerations? >Simple. You ask. Not to argue, since I agree, but I advocated and even tried that approach and, found that it is easier to accomplish at the keyboard than in the real world. Although I did not talk to many, I found that most of the top guys I encountered would not make outright statements one way or the other, and none of my small sample used the facility set up to test for TM susceptibility on any regular basis. They did say that they got any stock additions from breeders with good reputations, or that they had no complaints, or that they had spot-checked a year or more back. Also they said nobody ever asked. >Best of all, know your queen producer, look him in the >eye on a regular basis, and listen to him. Looking him in the eye and asking seemed to cause almost universal discomfort, even on the part of those we assume should be confident. >If they hem and haw, you hang up. I have problems looking people in the eye over the phone, (other than on Skype, which is still not in widespread use by beekeepers). >If they laugh and say "of course we bred in t-mite resistance >years ago", you place an order. Seeing as we know that TM resistance is an invisible trait that is not persistent (it can occur in some daughters of a top-notch queen and not others) I'm thinking that this is a crap shoot. "Years ago" is not now, and this trait disappears fast. Add to that the fact that the queens often pass though several hands on the way to the small beekeeper (and often even large orders) that the queen suppliers often swap queens when short, or source from other queen raisers on short notice when making up packages, that plans change on short notice, and what might seem a clear-cut certainty becomes increasingly hazy. >I've yet to hear of a queen supplier lying about something >so basic, as it would be trivial to verify the claim. It's not lying that is the problem. It is the uncertainty and the 'slip betwixt the cup and the lip' that is so frequent and confounds us. >as it would be trivial to verify the claim I am not aware of what trivial verifications are posible. The survey done by the researchers a while back was a big job, I should think. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 11:53:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: CCD- new symptoms or not Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Some have posted that CCD is new while others note that it has happened >in the past. One says the symptoms have not been seen before. Which is >it? Certainly like to hear if the symptoms have never been seen before. >The only place I have seen that is on this list. If I have read all the contributions correctly, the only novel symptom reported has been that the comb and boxes from the collapsed colonies (the ones with CCD, not others that died for the usual reasons) typically contain lots of fresh stores, are not robbed, and, curiously, don't attract moths or SHB. Moreover, anecdotally, shaking a package on them without airing them out for weeks is not successful. Did I get that right, Jerry? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 11:58:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: globe and mail article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >see what Marla Spivak says in a recent article called Why are Honeybees Collapsing? posted on the U of M Entomology Dept. website. >http://www.extension.umn.edu/honeybees/components/03-26- 2007_whycollapsing.html Great article. Not a word wasted, no BS and no ambiguity! BTW, giving credit where credit is due, the co-author is Gary Reuter. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:03:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: Now if Odor is required by bees - then is this the cause of CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Hoping to help shed light onto a thorny topic. Maybe killing two birds with one stone! >http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/mg19425984.300?DCMP=NLC- nletter&nsref=mg19425984.300 Well, some years back, I wondered here on the list, that if there was a change, say, in the formulation of gasoline, how long it would take for subtle effects to show up nationwide -- or even worldwide. We have no idea of all the possible effects of the thousands of new substances being distributed throughout the environment on an annual basis, or even what these new substances are! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:17:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Immunosuppression MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone sent me this _http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/102/21/7470_ (http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/102/21/7470) Any comments /discussions about this and it's relationship to possibly being the beginning of CCD Walter Ontario ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 14:51:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Disappearing Disease Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry your comments on genetics I thought was interesting. Can we assume that the majority of affected hives (not beekeepers) are from migratory operations? If thats true can we also make the assumption that the migratory folks prefer an Italian line over others? If this line of reasoning fits with your observations, I wonder then if the affected hives do represent a rather small pool of genetics. While genetics may not be the "answer" to CCD it would be an interesting piece of data to add to the puzzle. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 15:29:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Status of Pollinators in North America (2006) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I discovered that the National Academy of Sciences Report titled Status of Pollinators in North America (2006) is now available online http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309102898 Notes of interest to current discussions page 77 talks about concern of imported bumble bees and cross transfer of pathogens to other bee species. page 180 talks about reccomendation to improve honeybee health. including 3rd party certification of queen producers. ties in with discussion on tracheal mite resistance and how do you know if your breeder selects. this sounds like an excellent idea. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 13:41:15 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: comb replacement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > One of our regulars wrote this back in 1999: > "Destroying older combs that are still in good shape is another of those > things small-time beekeepers do to make sure that they stay small-time." > > Yet comb renewal has become a popular call - does anyone have concrete > evidence of a benefit from comb renewal, beyond the possibility of relief > from Foulbrood, Nosema and perhaps Chalkbrood? I wouldn't want to argue with that guy, but one thing has changed greatly in the meantime, and that is the known chemical load in beehives, much of it applied by the beekeeper with or without the blessings of the extension people and regulators. Many beekeepers are putting some pretty toxic things into their hives, and there is always the danger of chemicals from the environment, too, and so comb contamination is a prime suspect whenever anything is out of whack. The legal treatments are -- with the exception IMO of organic acids and some and by no means all essential oils -- bad enough, but many have tried using other formulations as well. Since most won't admit it, for fear of regulatory action, the assumption made, unless proven otherwise is that all hives contain toxic combs. Thus the advice to change combs. Absent chemical contamination, there are plenty of proven ways to decontaminate combs that are suspected of carrying all but the most persistent bee diseases, using acid fumigation or even simple airing out, and radiation will deal with even that. Good drawn combs are an essential asset to a beekeeper, in the North, at least, (maybe not so much in the South) and should be conserved, except when known or suspected to be contaminated with substances like coumaphos. Good diseased comb should be irradiated, aired out, or fumigated -- or, barring AFB, given to a strong hive on a good flow early in the season. IMO. YMMV. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 22:09:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: USB microscopes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Bromenshenk: > The Novatech price is in pounds, and I didn't look up the conversion. > Has > anyone used this scope? $83.62 excluding VAT and postage. I will try to find out more about it. Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 17:43:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: USB microscopes-Question 8 question for Jerry bromenshank MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Previous quotes: > Rich said For one tenth the price the QX-5 does JUST AS well and is a > much > better bargain. > > We've not tried that unit, would like to see some images for comparison to > the MiScope. It is a better price, with a greater magnification range - > according to the blurb. > > The MiScope form factor is probably a bit more conducive to being hauled > around without things getting knocked out of alignment - but that's just a > guess. Have you had much experience with the QX-5? > My question: Are these scopes capable of use in examining bees for tracheal mites? Thanks for any input. John Horton PS And one more question for Jerry Bromenshank: Jerry , have you found any races/strains/common origin of bees that seem to have avoided the CCD, or conversely, that seem to show susceptibilty? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 18:49:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Where do they get these numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline quote: "Nationwide, more than a quarter-million hives were found empty in March after bees abandoned them." -- Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved source: http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=local&id=5191107 -- Peter Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 20:44:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Honeybee colonies achieve fitness through dancing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A while back Allen Dick asked for an experiment which could falsify bee dance communication. If an experiment could be designed which could provide evidence that the bees don't use the information in the dance, that would blow a big hole in the idea. Well, it appears that the following study does that: it tests what happens if the bee dance is scrambled so that the bees can't really use it to find food sources. Does it make a difference? The answer may surprise you. It depends. (The title is funny too...) * * * Honeybee colonies achieve fitness through dancing Gavin Sherman & P. Kirk Visscher Department of Entomology, University of California, Riverside, California 92521, USA EXCERPTS: The honeybee dance language, in which foragers perform dances containing information about the distance and direction to food sources, is the quintessential example of symbolic communication in non-primates. The dance language has been the subject of controversy, and of extensive research into the mechanisms of acquiring, decoding and evaluating the information in the dance. The dance language has been hypothesized, but not shown, to increase colony food collection. Here we show that colonies with disoriented dances (lacking direction information) recruit less effectively to syrup feeders than do colonies with oriented dances. For colonies foraging at natural sources, the direction information sometimes increases food collected, but at other times it makes no difference. The food-location information in the dance is presumably important when food sources are hard to find, variable in richness and ephemeral. Recruitment based simply on arousal of foragers and communication of floral odour, as occurs in honeybees, bumble bees and some stingless bees, can be equally effective under other circumstances. Clarifying the condition-dependent payoffs of the dance language provides new insight into its function in honeybee ecology. After honeybee dances were first decoded by von Frisch, controversy arose about whether bees that follow dances actually decode the distance and direction information, or instead rely exclusively on odour. Subsequent experiments established that bees can decode the dances, but the relative role of odour and vector information has been little studied. Mechanistic and descriptive studies suggest that the dance makes the nest an information centre where communication allows a colony to direct most of its foragers to the richest sources found, increasing the colony food collection, but this hypothesis has not been effectively tested. To test the effect of the dance language, we established a diffuse light treatment in which bees performed completely disoriented dances, and an oriented-light treatment in which bees performed well-oriented dances. Former studies comparing disoriented and oriented dances compared vertical and horizontal hives, which may differ in factors other than dance orientation. We used two frame horizontal observation hives that could be illuminated with either treatment: light from three 25-W bulbs diffused through white translucent Plexiglas suspended above the colony, or unidirectional light from one 75-W bulb above a sheet of transparent Plexiglas plus a fluorescent 'black light' providing short wavelengths. The results demonstrate that under natural foraging conditions the communication of distance and direction in the dance language can increase the food collection of honeybee colonies. They also robustly confirm that bees use this directional information in locating the food sources advertised in the dance. However, the study also demonstrates that this advantage does not always hold. In the feeder-recruitment experiments, dance-language vector information increased the number of recruits that found the feeders, but about one-third as many recruits came even without directional information, presumably relying on learning the scent of the feeder from the dancing bees and then searching for that scent in the field. During summer and autumn, there was no significant difference in the food collected, as measured by mass changes, when colonies did and did not have directional information from the dance. However, in conditions like those in winter in this study, communication of food source location does increase a colony's food intake. We note that this difference does not just reflect food abundance. The seasons (summer and autumn) in which oriented dancing was not associated with greater food gain had average mass gains that were greater (summer) and less (autumn) than the season (winter) in which oriented dancing did lead to greater food collection. (c) 2002 Nature Publishing Group NATURE | VOL 419 | 31 OCTOBER 2002 www.nature.com/nature -- Peter Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 21:04:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Immunosuppression Comments: To: Walter Zimmermann Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I looked over the paper and some key points seem to be: Xiaolong Yang and Diana L. Cox-Foster: To our knowledge, this is the first example of an ectoparasite immunosuppressing its invertebrate host. Given that ticks immunosuppress their vertebrate hosts, ectoparasites not only immunosuppress their vertebrate hosts but also immunosuppress their invertebrate hosts. Thus, immunosuppression of the hosts may be a common phenomenon in the interaction and coevolution between ectoparasites and their vertebrate and invertebrate hosts. We propose that varroa mites may cause collapse of honey bee colonies as follows. Varroa mite infestation may reduce the expression of genes encoding antimicrobial peptides and immunity- related enzymes, eventually leading to depressed bee immunity for both cellular and humoral immune responses. Thus, the bee colonies may become more susceptible to various bee pathogens, especially DWV [deformed wing virus]. * * * Comment: I have been wondering about the presence or absence of varroa at the time of colony collapse. Some of the collapsing colonies reportedly do NOT have heavy loads of mites. However, this neglects a key point: they may have had them earlier, which could have caused a compromised immune system in the colony, leading to eventual collapse -- even if the varroa were well reduced by treatment or died off in some other way. Perhaps, the colony collapse is less a factor of the *number* of the mites and more due to the virulence of them or the pathogens they carry. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 19:22:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Wayne Chang Subject: Reconditioning Hive Woodenware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have just acquired two hive deeps and a couple of honey supers without frames. As a precaution I plan on scorching the insides of all of the boxes. I also plan on coating everything with lindseed oil and am asking if this is acceptable or discouraged. Thanks in advance, Wayne Chang ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 21:44:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter says: AP article says: Nationwide, more than a quarter-million hives were found empty in March. And he asks where they get their numbers? Who knows where the press gets its numbers. Reporters nowadays think fact checking consists of getting the correct spelling of the names of people they often misquote. National publications, including most scientific journals, have a policy AGAINST providing a copy of the article to the people quoted prior to publication. That came through loud and clear a few years ago at a Journalist's Symposium held in conjunction with a National Animal Behavior Society in Missoula. What I learned was: many of the major journals, newspapers, and magazines can and will fire a reporter who sends an advance copy back to the people interviewed. They argue that they have the right and an obligation to write stories without undue influence by the people contacted, while putting the story together. All of which seems bogus to me. No reporter or editor has to make changes suggested by the source(s) of their information. Fact checking should be just that -- get the facts straight. Reporters and especially their editors will put whatever spin on a story that they like, but they should be required to be factual. That's why a few years ago, relative to some of our other work (not CCD) a magazine like Forbes got the story all wrong, while ironically the Enquirer actually it right. Jerry ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 22:19:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: CCD and races MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John asked: And one more question for Jerry Bromenshank: Jerry , have you found any races/strains/common origin of bees that seem to have avoided the CCD, or conversely, that seem to show susceptibilty? Answer: I'm not sure. Surveys to date tend to list one more than the others BUT that may be an artifact of how we are asking the questions. We're working on normalizing the results. Simple answer, we haven't found a resistant race or queen supplier - yet. We may have some evidence of susceptible races, only time and more surveys will tell. So, keep those surveys coming in, especially as we enter spring/summer, when CCD should be easier to distinguish from overwintering loss. I'm assuming that CCD isn't going away, unfortunately. To illustrate the queen origin problem, using a somewhat different issue - if we look at the CCD colonies across the nation, we seem to have a high percentage of CCD colonies originating from some very specific parts of the U.S. Many seem to have a common link back to a few very specific states, where they were summered. (And no, the common link is not necessarily CA or Florida). Except, given the main migration routes in the U.S., the apparent connection may just reflect common movement patterns, rather than any real link. So a link back to a region of the U.S. may not hold up. Similarly, too many large beekeepers use queens from several suppliers, and don't keep the records needed to trace colony performance to specific queen lines or suppliers. On the other hand, sidelines and hobby beekeepers often do know who, what, where -- mainly as a consequence of their smaller scale operations. So, they may have the more useful information - if there is any queen influence. For those of you who like to dig in the literature, Bill Wilson's ideas about a possible genetic basis for disappearing disease were eventually addressed in articles in ABJ, I think in the early 70s, not by Bill, but by the Steve Tabor and Harry Laidlaw (I think in the same issue). And if anyone on Bee-L doesn't know who Bill is, he was the Research Leader at the Wyoming Bee Lab (no longer in existence), and later at the Weslaco lab. He lives about an hour and 1/2 out of St George, Utah. He's in good health, and he's been putting together some notes about what happened all those years ago. I need to get back to him. Cheers Jerry ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 23:15:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: comb replacement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 14:51:25 +0000, Gavin Ramsay wrote: >Steve asked: > >> 1. How many years can you safely use brood comb? It seems >> like you could have virus infected comb after one season > >.. it would seem that Varroa and its saliva does carry some picorna-like viruses and could be a vector, but also the queen lays virus-contaminated eggs and that worker to larva transmission takes place. Simply renewing comb is unlikely to break the cycle of infection with this and related viruses, and so I doubt that comb renewal could be justified on this issue alone. On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 14:51:25 +0000, Gavin Ramsay wrote: >Yet comb renewal has become a popular call - does anyone have concrete evidence of a benefit from comb renewal, beyond the possibility of relief from Foulbrood, Nosema and perhaps Chalkbrood? The case for the three diseases you state above have been demonstrated experimentally. The level of comb replacement used to get the reduction in these studies, however, is fairly high (typically all the comb is replaced). I know of only one study tracing the benefits of disease reduction by routine replacement of *a portion* of a colony's comb... it was from Sweden, it involved annual replacement of some of the combs for Nosema reduction. I recall the partial replacement resulted in significant Nosema reduction, but it underscores the dearth of research into the benefits of partial comb replacement. RE: the benefits of comb replacement will extending to viruses. I disagree that recent findings that point to the agency of the workers, queens and drones in the transmission of these viruses, means that comb replacement won't have any benefits. Remember the transmission of AFB, EFB, Nosema and chalkbrood ALSO depends on the activity of nestmates... these diseases don't just waft out of the comb on their own... nonetheless the evidence suggests that comb replacement can reduce all of these diseases. I am unaware of any study that has *even* investigated the benefits of comb replacement in reducing viral infections... we are far from a verdict in this area. Then, of course, there is Allen's point about residues. Dr. Pettis at the USDA has done a nice job determining the lethal and sublethal effects of coumaphos residues on the colony. The work suggests that colony performance would benefit from comb replacement, but again, this has not been investigated directly and experimentally. It would be nice to see more work looking at the benefits of comb replacement in the absence diseases, so as to focus on *all other factors* associated with comb repacement. To round this discussion out I think it is useful to revisit the work from the Univerity of Georgia (Berry and Delalane 2001) looking at the development of colonies on new and old comb. I recall that they observed higher survival for brood reared on dark old comb compared to new comb. The picture is made even more complicated when you factor in the economics. I think there is a lot more to know about comb replacement. I am equally concerned when people evoke comb replacement as a panacea as when people write it off as inefficient. I agree with Gavin... comb replacement will only become adopted more widely when the accounting of the benefits accrued by partial comb replacement are better defined. Adony ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 19:22:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: globe and mail article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Like I said in my previous post I have got two trained professionals to do the actual teaching on the microscopes for my area. I personally would like one of the newer 5 KV Transmission electron microscopes ( TEM) for my personal lab but for now the compound & dissecting I use will have to do. I would not throw rocks at any of the other three types SEM, REM or STEM. but harder to find used. For those not familiar the TEM is the original electron patent design. Like the old first university computers the first electron microscopes were HUGE! Using the word electron microscope did get attention but would not fall into the $1500-2000 package pricing. Duh! With the proposed bill of Hastings for 75 million then even funding a few electron microscopes might be possible. All that is needed by beekeepers now is a basic package to test for the things already found in hives. The scope Jerry B. suggested might be enough with a few other items. 1) Please tell us where you currently get media appropriate for culturing foulbrood. If you make it, list your ingredients and recipe. Actually I would put the AFB & EFB Diagnostic kits in each beekeeper package. Both cost around $22 from page 48 of the Dadant catalog but the ad says *call for pricing* for over 50. I wonder the cost for 500? Culture is not necessary and is time consuming. I can walk buy a hive with AFB and make a diagnosis which is SELDOM wrong! The smell of AFB is unusual. 2) Please tell us what your favorite stain is for highlighting nosema spores on slides when looking at midgut contents. I personally have never used a stain. Many amateurs do I have been told. In fact an electron microscope is not needed. A compound scope with 400 power does a good job. I suppose a stain might help some see better. Using an electron for a simple diagnosis of nosema seems a bit overkill. In fact I have never heard of one used but surely could be. I have seen nosema pictures in books with a light red stain but not sure what they used as I am a beekeeper and not a lab person. I have never made a field diagnosis of nosema and not had my hypothesis not confirmed with the microscope. 3) Lastly, please explain to us in brief how you prepare a sample for an electron microscope. Many ways involving many procedures. As in all microscope diagnosis the slide prep is the important part. The three types of prep I have seen done concerning bees has been: (although there are over ten named methods to prepare a specimen for an electron microscope.) 1.sectioning. 1a. What I have looked at most is bee sections with water in specimen replaced with a chemical.( like alcohol) 2. staining done (mainly for contrast) using lead, tungsten or uranium. 3. dehydration is easy & common 4.cryofixation which is easy to do in a complete lab environment. To test for amoeba disease I believe a compound microscope would do but would like to see amoeba disease under an electron scope. If the Bob's down and dirty test is not enough: Infected malpighian tubules are usually swollen and appear shiny ( as opposed to normal malpighian tubules) then ( Test I have never done) The tubules are teased from the digestive tract and a drop of water is added. A cover glass is placed over the tubules and pressure is added. Malpighamoeba mellificae can be decerned using a high dry objective and then changing to the oil immersion objective for more detail. My training in the above has been self taught or looking over the shoulder of a researcher. If members of the list want to add or correct the above please do as I am here to LEARN. >The above (except for #3) should be trivial if you are planning on teaching others how to "diagnose", Like I said *PRIOR* to reading this post I have arranged for two trained professionals to do the actual teaching. I think they would do a better job than myself. One has been teaching college level biology for a couple decades. >I'm not certain about "disappearing disease" symptoms prior to the 1960s, as I can't seem to find clear symptom lists prior to the 1960s. (Anyone with a clue on this, please e-mail me.) I could share as "disappearing disease" was the first new disease I heard about after starting beekeeping. I believe I have read everything Wilson & Rothenbuler have written on the subject. At the time I never saw a hive which fit the described symptoms nor ever met a beekeeper which did! I was involved at the time period with an 8000 hive migratory operation running bees in Florida and Fireweed locations in Minnesota. Excellent bees! 1) You proposed tooling up with tools that may not be appropriate, as no one knows what tools are required at this point. The above is almost to dumb for me to answer! Everything we learned about the problems found in CCD hives *so far* can be tested for but some tests the average beekeeper needs equipment and training to do. On the lighter side: What if the answer you seek never comes "grasshopper"? What will you do while waiting and watching your hives die? Search for the missing bees and send to Jerry B. is always and option. Bees being taken up by aliens has not yet been suggested. Possibly the aliens will use an anal probe and release the bees back into our apiaries. Do not give up hope that the missing bees will not return! 2) You proposed educating and equipping beekeepers when a better investment would be to fund a ramp-up of capacity and throughput at existing labs, where "quality control" can be more than an empty phrase. The turn around time on simple problems is simply too long. Beekeepers need to be able to diagnosis a problem fast so a treatment can be decided on. Many believe that if they five labs looking so far have not found the smoking gun then????? I am lucky I can dial a member of each bee lab from a cell phone in the field but most beekeepers have not got those kinds of contacts. 3) What we clearly don't need is yet another layer of bureaucracy to hold its hand out for the few dollars that will be allocated to "CCD", My point exactly. Send the money needed for testing equipment and training directly to the people needing the help. Instead of building a new 20 million dollar CCD facility ( proposed in Hastings bill) let the researchers rent a building! Maybe a building which used to house a MOM & POP business before Wal-Mart put em out of business!How long do researchers plan to look for the CCD solution. Lets not make the researchers so comfortable they forget the mission! Beekeepers waiting for CCD answers! Also. How much money will be left after the bill pays for a million package bees a few times? Once a payoff for CCD deadouts is announced I expect a million more hives than in the U.S. will be claimed loss to CCD. The amount asked for CCD IS 75 million dollars ( not that we will get a single penny). If the *groups* ( EAS, Has or Was) you speak of are willing to take their show on the road and provide FREE training to beekeepers then perhaps they might fit into the plan! Attending EAS is not cheap for beekeepers to attend and is only once a year! Also without providing the free equipment needed and charging not many will attend. You need to dangle a carrot in front beekeepers to get many to arrange time to attend. The bulk of commercial beekeepers are busy when EAS and the other two meet. Reason I have turned down all offers to speak at those. Business first! Rob Mountain asked about the Midwest and Adrian asked about the West last year. Unlike many I really have got too busy a lifestyle for speaking. I do however speak for FREE at the clubs I belong to and often. 4) We may need every single dollar for the "R&D". This depends on what your position is. Researchers want ALL the money. The largest commercial beepers want all the money but a token amount to research ( as most really believe CCD is a witch hunt) >But other than the above, we are in perfect agreement. :) On the above as usual I hope we can agree to disagree. Are you ready to help Virginia beekeepers become better beekeepers Jim? Beekeeping needs you! Bob ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 00:01:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Reconditioning Hive Woodenware Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wayne writes: "I also plan on coating everything with lindseed oil and am asking if this is acceptable or discouraged." As a matter of fact the new owner of the Beez Neez Apiary Supply in Snohomish Washington, the place I get a lot of my stuff, is now offering to dip new wooden ware in a heated solution of bees wax and lindseed oil. Not sure of the proportions, but he said he learned of it from some folks at the University of Washington. He is recomending it to his customers. It sure smells good. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 09:00:03 +0100 Reply-To: pencaemawr@f2s.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Burgess Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > quote: > "Nationwide, more than a quarter-million hives were found empty in > March after bees abandoned them." -- Copyright 2007 by The Associated > Press. All Rights Reserved > If it's copyrighted, it must be a work of fiction? John B ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 06:31:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: comb replacement In-Reply-To: <307315.50879.qm@web86204.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin Ramsay wrote: > > Yet comb renewal has become a popular call - does anyone have concrete evidence of a benefit from comb renewal, beyond the possibility of relief from Foulbrood, Nosema and perhaps Chalkbrood? > > It seems that nature has made that its practice with bees. Waxmoth does a great job of cleaning out natural dead outs so bees start fresh. All the books I have read call for it, generally over a five year cycle, so somewhere back in pre-history there must have been a reason. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 09:15:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter says: AP article says: Nationwide, more than a quarter-million hives were found empty in March. And he asks where they get their numbers? Who knows where the press gets its numbers. Jerry wrote: Reporters nowadays think fact checking consists of getting the correct spelling of the names of people they often misquote. John B. wrote: If it's copyrighted, it must be a work of fiction? My reading of the AP article quoted by Peter, http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=local&id=5191107, is different. In the opening paragraph, it is stated that "an ailment has killed off tens of thousands of honeybee colonies in 24 states." The rest of the article then proceeds to both quote and, it seems, paraphrase James Tew, and my reading of the rest of the article was that the rest of the information was attributable to Tew, including the statement (although not clearly attributed) "Nationwide, more than a quarter-million hives were found empty in March after bees abandoned them." The author is stating two facts that contradict each other and is guilty of ambiguous writing which does not clearly indicate where the facts came from. But for list members to condemn all journalists is like condemning all beekeepers for using bad management procedures. I know one immigrant beekeeper who has very poor English skills. Most of his bee management practices are sound. However, he uses apistan strips every year and leaves them in all winter and while honey supers are on his hives and has developed extremely resistant varroa mites. He has done this because he cannot read English well enough to understand how to properly use the product. Should we just assume then, that all beekeepers are idiots and don't follow package directions? Additionally, "fact checking" is just that. Go to ANOTHER, DIFFERENT source to confirm the facts you have gathered from one source. Come on guys...there are good journalists and bad ones, just as there are good beekeepers and bad ones. Yes, they make mistakes. Usually when their mistakes are pointed out, responsible journalists will provide either a correction or retraction. Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ janet@rapseik.org ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 08:32:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: comb replacement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Adony & All, > Simply renewing comb is unlikely to break the cycle of infection with this and related viruses,. I agree with Adony with the reservation that we really do not know everything about the current virus issue. Comb which is showing PMS signs when placed back in service the next spring seems to cause the hive to crash from virus the next fall. Why I don't understand. Should not be happening . >Then, of course, there is Allen's point about residues. Dr. Pettis at the USDA has done a nice job determining the lethal and sublethal effects of coumaphos residues on the colony. Allen is right on about residues. Now we have got many beekeepers jumping on the Hivastan band wagon. I suppose in a few years Jeff Pettis will be back in meetings showing slides of comb on which Apistan/Checkmite & Hivastan have been used. If fluvalinate effects drones ( hey we need those guys!) and coumaphos effects queens ( spoke with a beekeeper last night which marks his queens and he rarely has a queen last 2 years since he used coumaphos). I ponder what effect hivastan will have on our bees? I for one are done with chemicals from Welmark & Bayer. Is not Bayer the people providing imadicloprid and fighting us saying its safe around bees? > The work suggests that colony performance would benefit from comb replacement, but again, this has not been investigated directly and experimentally. Actually it has privately in commercial yards with success. Getting bees off comb on which coumaphos & fluvalinate has been used really gives the bees a boost. Getting bees off comb which before has had high levels of EU or PMS has been shown to me to be worth the effort but the effort is expensive and time consuming. I am anxious to see the result of my friend David Hackenburgs radiation treatment on all his brood comb. He has been willing to spend the money to see if radiation of comb might be a solution for many problems. In Australia radiation of comb is common. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 09:36:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit More numbers, up to 700,000 now. > Beekeepers have reported the abandonment of about 700,000 hives throughout the country, including 35 percent to 40 percent of the colonies in Florida. > On the drive home, Hackenberg called fellow beekeepers, a blueberry grower, an importer of queens from Australia. To all, he passed on the latest, which suggested the situation was even worse than he had thought. > "I've been talking to guys in Canada and New York who have just gotten out to check their hives," he said to Danny Weaver of Texas, the current president of the beekeepers federation. "Seventy percent seems to be the magic number on bee losses." Dan Dewitt St. Petersburg Times http://tinyurl.com/38l8pj ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 09:44:49 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: globe and mail article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quite a few words Bob, but you named NO stains, and you named NO media for culturing AFB. You were 0 for 2. This evinces a distinct lack of the knowledge and experience that would be required to set up even a basic lab for bee disease diagnosis, let alone teach others. > With the proposed bill of Hastings for 75 million then > even funding a few electron microscopes might be possible. But what possible application would they have for bee disease diagnosis? I thought you mis-typed, but you appear to be serious about this. I know of no possible use for such expensive and complex beasties that would yield any advantage in the case of bee diseases. So please tell us why anyone would need such a costly device. > I would put the AFB & EFB Diagnostic kits... The question was about growth media, because such knowledge would be basic to the skill set required to set up a lab. The weaving and dodging won't do. Test kits just don't screen like culturing does. Too many false negatives. This is why the Bee Labs have yet to throw away their Petri dishes. > I personally have never used a stain. Then question about stains was yet another question that would be "basic knowledge". And yet again, you tried to dodge and weave. You may think you don't "need" a stain, but when you are looking at large numbers of samples in a high-volume production environment, it can reduce the eyestrain. It would be a cheap and easy way to enhance detection when the work was being done by a relative neophyte of the sort you say you want to train. > Many amateurs do I have been told. You are the first that I've heard claim that the use of stains was limited to "amateurs", I've considered it a requirement if one wants to take decent photos, or if one wants to decrease false negatives when one is doing it all day long, as the little buggers are simply hard to see. > I have seen nosema pictures in books with a light red > stain but not sure what they used as I am a beekeeper > and not a lab person. Yes you are, and no you aren't. :) > I have never made a field diagnosis of nosema and not > had my hypothesis not confirmed with the microscope. That's not surprising, but the take-home point about nosema is that you can find it with a microscope in cases where the colony itself does not show any symptoms at all. Many cases of nosema simply have no symptoms, other than the weaker state of the colony. The whole "midgut test" has been debunked as too often missing the low-intensity cases. One needs to be sampling and testing for nosema when one does NOT see the overt symptoms. >> 1) You proposed tooling up with tools that may not be >> appropriate, as no one knows what tools are required >> at this point. > The above is almost to dumb for me to answer! No, it is not "too dumb". It is a very basic point. You can only screen for what you first identify, and as I have often intoned, "You cannot control that which you do not measure". I find it foolish in the extreme to make claims that one can equip beekeepers to detect CCD before anyone has told us how it might be detected prior to the onset of "collapse". We also have the question of how one can "cure" the problem. Detection is of no value unless detection can prompt action(s) that result in a positive outcome. > Everything we learned about the problems found in CCD hives > *so far* can be tested for but some tests the average beekeeper > needs equipment and training to do. The wide range of known bee diseases have been found may or may not be contributing factors in "CCD". The problems with Bob's many assumptions are many: 1) We are finding things in the hives SURVIVING CCD long enough to be the source of samples. The empty boxes may have contained bees with much better clues. 2) None of the diseases found have any symptoms that match the symptoms of CCD, which are very unique. 3) None of the diseases in combination are known to produce the symptoms of CCD, either. (Did I mention that the overt symptoms of CCD are very unique?) So if Bob were the Chief of Police in Miami, he would react to an increase in the murder rate by taking funding away from the skilled professionals of the "CSI Miami" team, and distribute "test kits" to the general population (consisting of a pregnancy test kit, an AIDS test kit, and perhaps a Herpes test kit), as many of the murder victims had been found to be suffering from AIDS or Herpes, and some were even pregnant! > The turn around time on simple problems is simply too long. > Beekeepers need to be able to diagnosis a problem fast so a > treatment can be decided on. Yes, but first one needs to have something specific to diagnose, and THEN one can look at issues like throughput, turn-around time, and so on. > Many believe that if they five labs looking so far have not found > the smoking gun then????? To date, no one has been confident enough to make any public statements, so I'm going to have to answer this one "yes". If you are sitting on knowledge of any "smoking gun", please feel free to enlighten the rest of us. > I am lucky I can dial a member of each bee lab from a cell phone > in the field... Why don't you let them work rather than pestering them? >> 3) What we clearly don't need is yet another layer of >> bureaucracy to hold its hand out for the few dollars >> that will be allocated to "CCD", > My point exactly. Send the money needed for testing equipment > and training directly to the people needing the help. Your posting itself was clear proof that such an approach would dissipate the money on efforts that don't have any clear connection to CCD. The trick here is to FOCUS the money, not spread it out, and build a bureaucracy that would merely repeat education already available from multiple sources (Cornell, NC State Beekeepers Master Beekeeper courses, EAS, HAS, WAS, multiple extension efforts, the list of places to get exactly the training you propose to re-invent goes on and on and on). > If the *groups* ( EAS, Has or Was) you speak of are willing to > take their show on the road and provide FREE training to beekeepers I was not aware that "free" was a requirement here. Do you think that cost is an issue? Given that decent student-grade microscopes can be had for $20, how cheap does something have to be before "cost is not the issue"? I still submit that the big problem is motivation among beekeepers. > The bulk of commercial beekeepers are busy when EAS and the other > two meet. Well, you have the ABF and AHPA meetings in winter, and you have the EAS/HAS/WAS meeting in late summer. At some point, you have to stop slinging boxes around, and take a "break", dontcha? If you can't leave the bees to trusted employees and associates for one lousy week a year, what kind of operation are you running? > Researchers want ALL the money. The largest commercial beepers want > all the money but a token amount to research So you want money too? For an effort that is premature, an effort that apparently needs to enroll you as the first student? I think there are better ways to spend money, and as luck has it, others agree, getting the money scraped up so far to existing qualified research folks. There certainly is some basic lab work that any beekeeper CAN do, such as culturing AFB, and looking for nosema in a repeatable and reliable way, you don't seem to know much about either. But none of the existing stuff has been linked to CCD in any compelling way as yet, so we simply don't know what sort of test(s) we might need. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 10:00:16 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Anyone selling tracheal-mite susceptible stock is either lazy or incompetent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > tried that approach {asking queen suppliers about Tracheal Mite > resistance] and, found that it is easier to accomplish at the keyboard > than in the real world. Maybe it was that you had no intention of actually buying any queens. Another problem may have been that you were not well-known to them. >> I discovered that the National Academy of Sciences Report titled >> Status of Pollinators in North America (2006) page 180 talks about >> recommendation to improve honeybee health. including 3rd party >> certification of queen producers. ties in with discussion on tracheal >> mite resistance and how do you know if your breeder selects. this >> sounds like an excellent idea. Yeah, it would be a great idea. Right now, there is far too much of an "old boy network", where "who you know" seems to be an important factor. But would the queen/package producers cooperate? I think some would foot-drag, if not sue for "product disparagement" when results of certification tests were published. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 07:02:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Honey Injections Used to Treat Rheumatoid Arthritis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Honey Therapy for Rheumatoid Arthritis: A Case Study Presented at: 5th German Apitherapy Congress, March 23-25, 2007, Passau, Germany Mamdouh Abdulmaksoud Mohamed Abdulrhman, Professor of Pediatrics, Faculty of Medicine, Ain Shams University, Abbasia, Cairo, Egypt E-Mail: mamdouh565@hotmail.com Among honey benefits are its anti-inflammatory, antimicrobial, antioxidant, and wound healing effects. Therefore it is worthwhile to try honey in treating the disease. SEE: http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/04/honey-injections-used-to-treat.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 10:45:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit what is it with the east coast and florida? its real quiet here in the mn/wis/ia region (please if someone else has info we'd love to hear it) the regional papers have not had any reports of massive local losses either. for the stationary folks i've been in touch with, winter losses are mixed with some reporting normal and others higher then average losses but pretty much typical stuff. i have a friend with russians north of here and he has very low losses (1:20) and he also winters lots of 4 frame nucs too. of course many of the migratory keepers are still on their way "home" yet so that part of the equation is missing. i still don't get why there was never a big run on packages/queens before late march. sure most are sold out now but thats normal for April. 'Janet, many of us have commented on the bizarre claims made in several news stories. people with conspiracy theories of gmo's and emf "noise" have seized on this canary in a cold mine story. many writers have ignored academic and industry leaders who were being cautious and instead the more spectacular sources of info were included in the news. one thing does seem certian and that is conditions vary considerbly between beekeepers and regions. that "fact" has not been evenly covered. instead the stories appear to be mostly over- worked variations of the "sky is falling", i mean really i'm not sure what that map tells someone who is not a beekeeper. john or jane doe public could infer from the map that CCD is taking a major toll all over the USA. the map really shows where beekeepers who have CCD in their hives call home, not neccasarily where the losses are as we are finding out here on bee-L. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 08:38:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? In-Reply-To: <001201c77aa9$2764fd20$0203a8c0@D84KC3C1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit " ... for list members to condemn all journalists is like condemning all beekeepers for using bad management procedures." I have to agree with the basic premise, but as one who has been interviewed several times for bee-related stories I find it difficult not to paint journalists with a broad, unflattering brush. Let's talk quotations. When I majored in journalism (25-plus years ago) I was taught that quotations were sacred -- you just did not put anything between quotation marks that the interviewee did not actually say. But that seems to have changed. Now the tendency is to take what the guy said and paraphrase it, summarize it or even change it to what you wish he had said. I base this on several of my own experiences and those of others I've talked to. IMHO, reporters are taught (if not in J-school, then at the papers where they work) that putting words in quotes gives a story an aura of authenticity. But unfortunately, people don't always say what you want them to say, so sometimes you just gotta get creative. Eugene Makovec Kirkwood, MO USA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 11:24:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: globe and mail article Comments: To: bee-quick@BEE-QUICK.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, Thanks for the post! Always like to hear your opinion! Jim said: >But none of the existing stuff has been linked to CCD in any compelling way as yet, so we simply don't know what sort of test(s) we might need. I think we need to get those blinders off and get you to understand we need to get started fixing the things which the CCD team found. Such as European foulbrood ( EF instead of the typo Eu in a post today), Varroa problems, tracheal mite issues, contaminated comb and poor nutrition. You asked me about what I know that about CCD you do not. Ok. >From conversation from those involved and close to the problem I have learned that it is very doubtful anything new found through research *if found* can be proven ( beyond a doubt) as the cause of the current die off. The recommendation I have been told is too fix all the "existing stuff" ( Jim's description of known problems) and then the CCD team can do a better job of searching for the missing bees.( and yes taken up by aliens was a joke Jim). Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 12:27:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? Comments: To: "Janet A. Katz" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Janet A. Katz wrote: >Peter says: AP article says: Nationwide, more than a quarter-million hives >were found empty in March. And he asks where they get their numbers? >But for list members to condemn all journalists is like condemning all >beekeepers for using bad management procedures. * Just for the record, it was never my intention to impugn journalists. I have immense respect for the profession and agree with what Janet is saying here. * NOR do I necessarily disbelieve in these numbers. It seems utterly plausible to me that a million hives will be dead by the time this plays out. * I just want to know: who is handing out these numbers and what are they based on? I'd like to see the sources. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 13:57:17 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: globe and mail article In-Reply-To: <002f01c77ac3$aa6b0420$2dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From conversation from those involved and close to the > problem I have learned that it is very doubtful anything > new found through research *if found* can be proven > (beyond a doubt) as the cause of the current die off. OK, whoever you spoke with is discouraged at not finding something clear and compelling so far. That's understandable. But soldiering on is the only possible move anyone has. No one said it would be "easy", no one said it would be "quick". > The recommendation I have been told is too fix all the > "existing stuff" (Jim's description of known problems) > and then the CCD team can do a better job of searching > for the missing bees. We all know the story of the fellow who came out of the bar and was trying to find his car keys that he had lost somewhere on the street. His friends came out and found him looking under the lamp post and asked "Why aren't you looking elsewhere? You haven't found them here." And he replied, "Well, this is where the light is." The proposed approach is every much like that old joke, exactly like that old joke. Except for not being the least bit funny in this context. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:20:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit heres some math to ponder if we go with the often used number of 2.5 million "mid-summer" hives in USA and subtract 20% for average winter losses, that leaves aprox 2.0 million hives going into spring and almonds which needed aprox 1.1 million hives which we hear was met. that leaves 900,000 "unknown condition" hives in addition to the 1.1 million we have some reason to believe were alive enough to collect pollination fees in CA in March. now consider the piece of data that package and queens were not oversold early in spring and I'd say its hard to believe numbers beyond 250,000 hives potentially empty for CCD, unless you want to add the winter losses of 500,000 like they do in some media articles or for bee lab funding requests. If the 2.5 million and 1.1 million are good guesses then its hard to make a case that CCD losses have surpassed the total number of an average nationwide winter kill. numbers like 700,000 gone now from CCD (plus factor in some winter kill) would mean that there's not much left except whats on the semi's moving east and north from CA. i think we'd know in a hurry if the numbers were that big...and no I don' t mean knowing from the media. the bee supply houses would be in trouble and there would have been massive shortages of spring queens and packages. from my perspective we're still a ways away from the fall04/winter05 mite crash..at least for now ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:24:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > > * I just want to know: who is handing out these numbers and what are they > based on? I'd like to see the sources. > > Same thing has been bothering me. The team should know the number of colonies that collapsed from the data they have collected. From that they have the number that were probably mites or other causes; the number that show CCD symptoms; and the number that do not fit anything, if there are such colonies. I realize that the numbers will be very rough, since all have not been directly observed by the team. I have a feeling that there has been some extrapolation of the numbers. "We have x number of reports and y% are CCD so that is the % of all colonies in the US that suffer from CCD". If that happened then the problem that several of us have, that the problem does not seem as widespread as the press reports, is answered. It may bee that the majority of those who had/have CCD have reported and that is close to the actual extent of the problem. Or not. But without any hard data and only press and individual beekeeper's speculation, any number has merit. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 18:11:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I tracked down the source of the big numbers (I guess): ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Dewitt@sptimes.com Date: Apr 9, 2007 1:15 PM Subject: Re: 700,000 hives > Jerry Hayes, Florida apiary inspector, said it was between 650,000 and 800,000. -- Peter Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 18:48:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/04/2007 12:38:09 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: How does one seperate these type queens from laying workers by the way? Are there any keys to look for for differences? I would expect a queen to lay in a reasonably tight pattern and laying workers to have more of a random scattering of eggs. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 20:47:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: globe and mail article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, Jim wrote concerning my need for access to an electron microscope: >But what possible application would they have for bee disease diagnosis? I thought you mis-typed, but you appear to be serious about this. I know of no possible use for such expensive and complex beasties that would yield any advantage in the case of bee diseases. >So please tell us why anyone would need such a costly device. I would be happy too! Also why I would like access to an electron microscope. I was hoping a researcher lurker might step forward to share ( Diana Cox Foster maybe). Several years ago when I was researching PMS and virus and in contact on a regular basis with virus research in the U.K I learned the real virus research is done with an electron microscope. I have seen some pretty fancy commercial beekeeper labs but none has an electron microscope to my knowledge. To prove the above please turn to page 1109 of the 92 edition of "The Hive and the Honey Bee" quote: " Electron microscope observations suggest that sacbrood virus can accumulate in the heads of infected adults ,with much of the virus accumulating in their hypopharyngeal glands ( Bailey ,1969,1968a)" We actually would know very little about virus without the electron microscope. I was very skeptical about the implications Norman Carrick & Brenda Ball were making six years ago but Norman took the time to send me information and educate me. I am amazed that both researchers have been let go and the research of Bailey sits idle. We are so fortunate to have a researcher of Diana Cox Fosters abilities in the U.S.. I suppose so many years ago the researchers of the day were spell bound with all the revelations F. Huber ( Blind ) made about the honey bee. Perhaps Huber has made the most *first time* discoveries about the honey bee than any other person. His observations through the eyes of his servant have stood for over 200 years. When people indicate I should be content to be a follower instead of a leader I think of F. Huber. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 23:00:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: Honeybee colonies achieve fitness through dancing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 20:44:45 -0400, Peter Borst wrote: >To test the effect of the dance language, we established a diffuse >light treatment in which bees performed completely disoriented dances, >and an oriented-light treatment in which bees performed well-oriented >dances. I had a similar experience at a dance club last weekend... and fortunately I was able to later locate my hive (and my keys). Sorry, I couldn't resist. Thanks for the post Peter. Adony ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 20:25:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lanfeust Subject: virus spread by contamination on flowers In-Reply-To: <002f01c77ac3$aa6b0420$2dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Most of us are more concerned today with the work of Diana Cox Foster on > virus and virus contamination of comb ( directly related to varroa ) than we are some > mystery CCD problem. Her presentation at ABF did not fall on deaf ears! > 1. virus is spread by contamination on flowers I understand this assertion comes from a presentation. But I took a look at the article pointed out on the list "Intricate transmission routes and interaction between picornia-like viruses....." by Shen, Cui, Ostiguy and Cox-Foster. The article relates pollen (pollen as food source given to larvae) tested positive for the 2 viruses analysed. It seems not clearly precised if pollen was sampled on flowers or in hives. I am under the impression it was in hives (see artcile's table 3), so I guess (but it is just a guess) in the forme of a mix of pollen and saliva. I just want to make sure I understand correctly. From Cox-Foster researches, are there really viruses in pollen on flowers ? Or are the results limited to pollen in hives (mixed with secretions) tested positive for viruses ? Thanks for clarification, Hervé Laval, Qc, Canada -- Hervé www.emelys.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 22:26:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in cells In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laying workers place their efforts often on the side of cell walls, at odd angles. Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 21:28:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in cells In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris, Since there are laying workers and then again there are intercaste laying worker types with decent brood patterns would you look for anything else. In my mind comes seeing the difference in the size of the brood patter also. But can you think of anything else? Dee- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 21:44:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian said: from my perspective we're still a ways away from the fall04/winter05 mite crash..at least for now Seems that way to me, too. Surprises me, though, following the midwestern drought--I expected worse. CCD is a is apparently not a large factor yet, but I'm curious as hell about it, and hope that Jerry and all can nail its cause. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 23:47:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: virus spread by contamination on flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > 1. virus is spread by contamination on flowers Herve asked: >I understand this assertion comes from a presentation. In her presentation Diana Cox Foster said the virus was left on the flower by a bee and then picked up by another bee. She also said a bee could carry the virus back to the hive without contracting the virus. I attended both presentations plus spoke privately with her. I also reviewed my notes before commenting. I am not sure nor was it in my notes exactly how long the virus remains viable on a flower. The implications in almonds are huge but keep in mind that if you can control varroa ( keep load very low) then the vector aspect seems (my opinion) to reduce virus impact. Which is the beekeeper position. The other side of the coin: The work of the U.K. ( Norman Carrick) was designed to prove that if you can control virus then honey bees can control varroa. Norman ran experiments with hives surviving quite well with a really high varroa load when virus was controlled and was the subject of his apimunda paper (which he trusted me to read months before presented to the beekeeping world). The year I spent on the Irish beekeeping list I learned quite a bit about virus as Norman Carrick was on the list also. Lloyd Spears, Ruary and Murray ( on BEE-L now) were also on the list back then ( five years ago I believe). Perhaps they might add their comments from what they remember of Norman's posts. A search of the Irish Beekeeping List from around 2000/2001 using my name and Norman Carrick should pull up some of those posts. I was very skeptical back then so I warn those doing a search. I think Lloyd and I were about the only Americans on the list which did posts but I am sure there were many lurkers. If you are on BEE-L now and remember those discussion please comment. . I hated to leave the list but time is my most precious asset. I still have got many of the friends I made back then! Talk of beekeeping and meeting at the local pub! The work of Diana Cox Foster is bringing attention to the virus issue. It is my opinion that researchers in the U.S. never embraced the work of Bailey, Norman C. or Brenda B. Volumes of virus research are available in the U.K. through Rothamsted Research of the U.K.. Rothamsted is 160 years young! www.rothamsted.ac.uk Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- . -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 00:11:22 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Anyone selling tracheal-mite susceptible stock is either lazy or incompetent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> tried that approach {asking queen suppliers about Tracheal Mite >> resistance] and, found that it is easier to accomplish at the keyboard >> than in the real world. > Maybe it was that you had no intention of actually buying any queens. > Another problem may have been that you were not well-known to them. Hmmm. Why would you think that? At the time I was buying queens and also influencing quite a few purchases, and I have been on a first name basis with these people for many years. That's why I asked them. Maybe you can share the results of your queries in this regard that make you think differently? Maybe list some suppliers who have given you such assurances? I'm still guessing that the answer probably lies right where I first suggested. Specifically, it appears to me -- from my limited sample -- that surprisingly few U.S. queen suppliers are actually actively monitoring TM susceptibility in their product to the point where they can comfortably and honestly say they are dead certain that they have it in all their shipments, when asked directly. * * * * * (At this point, I'm hoping that there will be a flurry of email to the list saying, "No, Allen, you are wrong, I asked my supplier -- even looked him in the eye over the phone -- and did not have to hang up. I have his (her) assurance"). Also, maybe a few queen suppliers or breeders on the list can attest to their own efforts in that regard. I happen to know that some do read this list -- sometimes at least -- and that they are of the sort most likely to be monitoring for the trait. (But they also are of the sort who hate to blow their own horn). ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:34:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in cells Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>How does one seperate these type queens from laying workers by the way? Are there any keys to look for for differences? I don't think anyone mentioned that a queen will typically attach the eggs to the bottom of the cells whereas laying workers' shorter abdomens allow them to attach their eggs only to the sides of the cells. You can find good pictures if you google 'laying workers.' Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:28:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Does anybody know WHERE or IF Dr. Einstein actually said, ''If all the bees disappeared tomorrow, humans would have only four years left on the planet.'' * leaving aside for the moment the obvious: there isn't any way that ALL the bees would disappear in one day, except nuclear holocaust, and I doubt we would survive even four years after that Also, I saw this one: "One project uses the famous honeybee dance language to explore the underlying foundation for addiction in humans." * the source of this seeming non-sequitir may be: "Octopamine modulates honey bee dance behavior" by Andrew B. Barron, Gene E. Robinson, et al. "In mammals, responses to all rewarding stimuli, such as food, safety, and sexual gratification, share common neural circuitry and mechanisms. These generalized reward-responsive circuits ramify extensively through the mammalian forebrain, and when stimulated, they release dopamine, a biogenic amine with structural similarities to Octopamine ... Perhaps there exist octopaminergic generalized reward-responsive circuits in the honey bee brain that mediate reward perception, learning, and reward-seeking motivation. ... If this hypothesis is correct, it would suggest a framework for unifying the diverse roles of OA in the learning of rewarding stimuli, motivation to forage for floral rewards, arousal, and the evaluation of floral rewards communicated by dances (this work)." "There has been much speculation about how dance behavior in honey bees might have evolved from the simpler behavioral patterns involved in food searching. Esch (40) proposed that the waggle dance evolved as a ritualization of simpler intention movements that partly reenacted flying to flowers. Octopamine modulation of honey bee dance behavior supports this hypothesis by identifying a commonality between the neurochemical mechanisms motivating personal appetitive behavior and the social dance response." -- Peter Borst see: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/104/5/1703 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:31:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: Anyone selling tracheal-mite susceptible stock is either lazy or incompetent Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Correction: "... surprisingly few U.S. queen suppliers are actually actively monitoring TM susceptibility in their product to the point where they can comfortably and honestly say they are dead certain that they have it in all their shipments, when asked directly". That should have been, "...do *not* have it in all their shipments". ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:47:28 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: globe and mail article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Once again, and I hope for the last time... Advocating that dedicated electron microscopes be funded for the exclusive dedicated use of regional/local beekeeper groups is not at all practical. It is a little comical to think of, rather like keeping a Gulfstream jet crewed and on standby around the clock just in case one might decide to go on a weekend trip. The wizards, priests, and acolytes required to tend the equipment, speak the incantations required to get it to work properly, and interpret the imagery would all want pay checks, and they don't work cheap. It is rare to find a electron microscope facility that is dedicated to any specific effort. Nearly all of them are "shared facilities", jointly funded by all the groups that make occasional use of the equipment. > "Electron microscope observations suggest that sacbrood virus can > accumulate in the heads of infected adults ,with much of the > virus accumulating in their hypopharyngeal glands..." > (Bailey, 1969, 1968, via Dadant's "The Hive and Honeybee") > > We actually would know very little about virus > without the electron microscope. > > I learned the real virus research is done with an electron microscope. Yes, in the 1960s an electron microscope would have been one of few appropriate tools, but we now have molecular microbiology techniques - molecular markers, genetic analysis, and so on. Much cheaper/better/faster/gooder. Microbiological techniques make it possible to >>> screen <<< for viruses, where electron microscopes are not practical for screening, due to the expense and time required to prepare samples. Let's compare your circa 1968 quote with the summary of a more recent paper, one by Judy Chen, Jay Evans, and Mark Feldaufer, circa 2006: "Using molecular techniques, we have detected viruses in various tissues of honey bee queens, indicating a vertical route of virus transmission, where infected queens can transmit virus to their offspring. We also present evidence of a food-borne contamination route of virus transmission..." http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=19 1919 So, think "electrophoresis", rather than "electron microscope". The only possible modern use I could think of for an electron microscope in this context would be to look at the physical "attachment hardware" of the virus, which is sometimes of interest to those who might want to create anti-virals. Regardless, the complexity and expense of any electron microscope is such that even the US federal government, which is not at all shy about spending our tax dollars, hesitates to buy more than one unit for all of USDA to share in the rare event that such technology is needed. "Because few individual research laboratories have the facilities and personnel to support and maintain this equipment, centralization of support is a very effective means of providing electron microscopy broadly within an organization. This project supports the Beltsville Electron Microscopy Unit, which provides high quality and timely research support and collaboration with ARS scientists..." http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/projects/projects.htm?ACCN_NO=408528&showpa rs=true&fy=2005 But not to worry, the same project description cited above also says: "Obtain EM data on Varroa jacobsoni mite immuno virus, Bee Research Laboratory, Plant Sciences Institute." So anyone who needs such imagery will have it, and as the work will be done by the USDA, it will all be "public domain", free for all to use. > I was hoping a researcher lurker might step forward to share > (Diana Cox Foster maybe). Well, she can wander over to the shared facility set up by Penn State, over at the South Frear Building on the University Park Campus: http://www.lsc.psu.edu/stf/em/home.html It is not like it is hard to "get time" on a microscope, ya know. It is just that the cost of ownership is mind-numbingly high. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:08:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Does anybody know WHERE or IF Dr. Einstein actually said, ''If all the bees disappeared tomorrow, humans would have only four years left on the planet.''<< We contacted the Einstein library/museum in Israel and got back a letter from an archivist saying that this quote is NOT one of Einstein's. Sorry Jerry ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:34:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: globe and mail article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Microbiological techniques make it possible to >>> screen <<< >for viruses, where electron microscopes are not practical for >screening, due to the expense and time required to prepare >samples. Ooops. Shouldn't have said that. Now Bob will want the government to buy him a Microbiological Technique. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:08:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >We contacted the Einstein library/museum in Israel and got back a letter from an archivist saying that this quote is NOT one of Einstein's. .I think the quote actually came from a beekeeper named A. (short for Al) Einstein while selling honey at a farmers market! Bob ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:41:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in cells In-Reply-To: <20070410.043515.21820.2420030@webmail10.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar: So question then: With intercaste queens that are between workers and queens, is it the same scenario? What has been photographed here? Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:45:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in cells In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris: Then question: What would you not expect to see then? Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:59:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: The Science, The Politics , The Keepers and the Missing Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:24:51 -0400, Bill Truesdell wrote: >Same thing has been bothering me. The team should know the number of >colonies that collapsed from the data they have collected. From that >they have the number that were probably mites or other causes; the >number that show CCD symptoms; and the number that do not fit anything, >if there are such colonies. When I worked in an R&D lab for 3M company I routinely saw different goals of the different participants. We had the science which backed up our product development, we also had the version of our Science presented by the lab Politicians to upper mgnt in order to maintain funding of our lab. Sometimes the spread in the story was straining relationships within the lab. I see a similarity here, I would not expect the CCD "team" to be releasing the statistics before the federal funding picture is more clear, then there is that sticky question of maintaining that funding or providing reports to the "funders" So just as in the corporate lab some of the Scientist are also required to wear the Politician hat to interact with the funders. These Bee Politicians also include the ABF and AHPA who have a real vested interest in the outcomes of the funding (kinda like the Marketing Dept at a big company) . If "related" losses need to be shifted to the CCD column, whatever, if it helps massage the funding story. We also have the Science which is work in progress and also includes related work from around the world. Those removed from the "Politics" would be most free to pursue the Science they wish and give pure data to the rest of the bee world to interpret free of the Politics and personal goals. Finally we have the Keepers on the ground who are either dealing with CCD or wondering what the heck is going on and why all the fuss...at least we have one good measure of the industry and its hard for any of the players in all of this to mess with the reality of package and queen availability and the price of almond pollination. The market determines these factors and does not care who is saying what, its pure supply and demand oriented although the rumor mill can temporarily affect the markets during times when little supply data is available (late fall & winter). To all the beekeepers worried about CCD, I would say use these measures to "filter" the wide range of reports you hear from the pelthora of sources. I forgot to mention the media, thats something we did not have in our R&D lab to contend with. In this circumstance the media is collecting Missing Bee information form all 3 of the players, the Bee Policitians, The Keepers and The Scientists. Sometimes their choice of sources biases the story in one way or the other, sometimes one of the players gets his/her message out in print/video. Sometimes a fringe player is interviewed and we get stories of bees becoming extinct from GMO's or EMF signals. As the downward trend in the supply of bees dwindles, I predict a new more visible world for the Bees, The Science, The Bee Politicians and The Keepers. The spread in "reality" (# of missing bees) may vary over time, bee sure and use the market filters to help make sense of the information and guide you in your beekeeping. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:02:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in cells Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit See "Stealth Bees" in the archives. "We found bees with characteristics of both workers and queens in African honey bee, Apis mellifera scutellata colonies, African usurpation swarms and in colonies of European honey bees, Apis mellifera, in the southwestern United States. We call these females intermorphs. Intermorphs might influence worker-queen interactions and possibly influence the invasion of European honey bee colonies by African bees." pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:39:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: virus spread by contamination on flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: Norman ran experiments with hives surviving quite well with a really high varroa load when virus > was controlled Thanks for the virus info, Bob. How did Norman control virus in the experiment? Randy ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:29:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Same thing has been bothering me. The team should know the number of >>colonies that collapsed from the data they have collected. Well, the number that they are citing is "between 650,000 and 800,000". Yes, it is based on extrapolation of data. That's what is done whenever the actual number can't be determined. Like polling a thousand voters to see which candidate will probably win. It may not be perfect, but it's pretty good at projecting. I find the numbers and the method to be entirely credible. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:03:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Vander Dussen Subject: formic and wintering losses In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Original message subjet line was "[BEE-L] globe and mail article" by --- Rob Termeer who wrote the main lines indicated by ">": Response by David VanderDussen, NOD Apiary Products > Prov. Apiarist Doug > McRory's report indicates > to me Fall symptoms common to the Varroa/PMS > collapse that I have gone > through to varying degrees beginning in fall/winter > 2000/01 at 25% with the > most severe loss of 70%...750 dead of 1100, > occurring in 2002/03. 25% losses every winter since 2000/01 is very high and very expensive. I consider under 20% workable, under 10% normal and under 5% to be the goal. My beekeeping is just West of yours, north of Trenton, Ontario. In the same time period my winter losses have been from 1 to 7%. Occasionally a bad year or yard can raise the numbers due to environmental issues, since long before mites hit winters still had to be dealt with and bad losses would sometimes occur. I've raised and sold nucs for 20 years, so making sure the bees survived winter in a strong condition is an important part of my income strategey. >I am very curious as to what > stock and mite > management systems are/were being used where major > losses occurred. Here is a link to the youtube site, showing the nuc box we use for our rapid colony production program. I used this design for seven years before we decided to try to mass produce and market it. New out this spring, just took the first of the production line to the Ontario Beekeepers Meeting last week. Have a look: http://www.youtube.com/NODApiaryProducts > Today I am totally relying on the 2 acids > (Oxalic,Formic) since I now have > varroa resistent to both Apistan and Coumaphos and > chemical wise I prefer > the acids if I can get sufficient control to stay in > business. It would be > prudent to have another reliable alternative > treatment I have used just the MiteAwayII formulation of formic for mite control since 2002 and the bees are doing great! Better than with Apistan. We just drop on a pad in the spring when we unwrap (start unwrapping around April 20th, weather permitting) and in September when pulling the last boxes we drop on one for a fall treatment. Last fall there wasn't any sign of DWV and bees looked clean and healthy. I was concerned with the lack of pollen in the hives (and they were light) and perhaps I should have put on a pollen suppliment, but I didn't. The bees I've seen this spring, just by cracking innner covers, look like they came through in good shape again. Five years in and MiteAwayII has proven very reliable and simple to use. We did a survey last week of our customers that have gone onto the MiteAwayII treatment program. The average is just under 7% losses. Beekeepers that go through the adjustment off strips and onto our rims and pads have a sustainable future ahead of them. More and more commercial beekeepers are making the switch. I'm glad you prefer the acids but it is unfortuate you had to go through the resistance to Apistan and CheckMite losses before making the switch. Do not be content with a 25% loss! However you are applying formic acid it is not doing the job. There is a proven better way! Hopefully other beekeepers in Canada will learn from you sharing your experiences and will not suffer the same pain. yours in beekeeping, David v. === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:47:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: CCD in Ont Just my .02 CCD seems to be a bit less a problem farthur north. I have 2 yards, 1 & 2 hrs NE of Toronto The south yard had 100% CCD The north yard none(CCD), but 1 loss was 'suspicious', bees more active (late) than they should have been. All loss was early in winter (15% at north) The nearest other BK (south) lost 10/11 The 11th is very strong, will it survive? The only common factor I can see is skunk (visits) maybe its: sick skunk -->t-mite -->restless 'itchy' bee??? Did anyone using formic late summer have any CCD??? please reply, negative info as valuable as positive On a more cheerful note I'm still pleased with my electric heaters, all the nucs survived They are running as I type. I did stuff a pollen frame into most(nucs) since they had none No pollen here yet (see archive for details re heaters) dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:22:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in cells In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter: Since they also found them as you say in colonies in the southwestern united states when actually looking in past recent year and Mackenson found similar in all he looked at earlier on with EUropean bees then what is so new? and why not looked into deeper for all races? Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:55:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Varorra Mites in Hawaii Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron here is the source of the Hawaii reports Hi everyone, Good Friday was not so good for beekeeping on Oahu Island , State of Hawaii. On April 6, 2007 the HDOA staff received a report from Dr. Michael Klicks (honey producer, Island of Oahu) of a potential infestation of the varroa mite on colonies he recently obtained from the Makiki Nature Center, Oahu Island. The hives were obtained on April 5, 2007 from the Makiki Nature Center at the Nature Center's (Oahu Island) request. The boxes were being damaged by termites and were brittle. On the afternoon of the 6th, Klicks examined one hive and discovered red mites >1mm in length. Dr. Klicks immediately contacted HDOA. Upon examination of a brood frame, adult mites were found and sampled. The mites were tentatively identified as Varroa destructor. Collections of bees were made from the three hives he obtained from Makiki Nature Center. Brood and samples of live and dead bees were taken for examination of varroa mite and screening for tracheal mites. The material was then taken to HDOA Quarantine Facility for examination. The dead bees were screened for varroa mites following standard alcohol shaking sampling procedures. The three hives were found to be heavily infested with Varroa mites. Screening for tracheal mites was initiated but not completed up to this hour. More details will be posted as we progress in the survey. Aloha, Mohsen _____________________________________________ Dr. Mohsen M. Ramadan Exploratory Entomologist State of Hawaii Department of Agriculture Division of Plant Industry, Plant Pest Control Branch 1428 South King Street, Honolulu, HAWAII 96814 (USA) Tel: (808) 973 9526 Fax: (808) 973 9533 email: mohsen.m.ramadan@hawaii.gov__ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 18:16:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I did some background research on Imidacloprid and here are the trade names sold in the US Used in seed treatments: Akteur®, Amigo®, Baytan® Secur, Chinook®, El Hombre®, Escocet®, Gaucho®, Gaucho® Blé, Gaucho® CS, Gaucho® Maícero, Gaucho® MZ, Gaucho® Orge, Gaucho® Primo, Gaucho® T, Gaucho® MT, Gaucho® XT, Genesis®, Faibel®, Ferial® Blé, Férial® Orge, Imprimo®, Manta® Plus, Monceren® Extra, Monceren® G, Monceren® GT, Montur®, Prestige®, Prestige® M, Raxil® Secur®, Seed-one®, Sibutol® Secur, Yunta®, Zorro®FS 236,3 Used on Citrus, coffee, cotton, fruits, grapes, potatoes, rice, soybeans, sugarcane, tobacco and vegetables as a insecticde spray: Admire®, Confidor®, Connect®, Evidence®, Leverage®, Muralla®, Provado®, Trimax® I did some calling around in Mn to the 3 main Ag Chem distrubtors and no one has heard of these, or sells them. I'd be curious what other beekeepers know about Imidacloprid use in their area. Especially with the fact that there is no real CCD reports around here and no Imidacloprid use apperently either. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 21:09:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit After I posted I received more information. Gaucho is used extensively as a seed treatment on sweet and/or field corn, canola, sunflowers, green beans and sugar beets here in MN. There are trials being done on soybean treatments too but it sounds like its not been approved yet. We don't have much canola or sunflowers growing here so it would appear we don't have many crops that bees might find possible tainted nectar. The sugar beet use is disturbing as the use is almost 75% is what a salesman told me. I have been concerned about atrazine traces and gmo corn as inputs into corn syrup on top of other recent infomation. Given that recent information I was thinking of moving to liquid sugar. Up north in NoDak were its sugar beet country the liquid sugar would be mostly from Gaucho soaked sugar beet plants. Wonderful we can't get away from chems anywhere. Sure would be nice to see some HFCS and liquid sugar analysis done to see what levels of these (atrazine, imidacloprid) chems are in the bee feed. There is also a spray-able apple product called Provado I was aware of but it does not cover the main spectrum of insects we have trouble with in apples. Its main use is for leafhoppers or leaf sucking insect which are a mid summer post bloom concern and consequently is not frequntly used in Mn. At least I feel a little better knowing that we probably don't have many spray applications being done with Imidacloprid nearby. Question is where is the heaviest concentration of Imidacloprid as a crop spray in USA? or also where is a heavy concentration of the seed treatments in nectar source plants like cotton, canola, sunflowers? fortunately alfalfa is not on the list of approved seed treatment uses. Here is a snippet from Cornell's website for apples http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/ent/treefruit/html/2006TF04/2006TF04_55.php *IMIDACLOPRID (Provado) is a broad spectrum contact and locally systemic chloronicotinyl insec- ticide with low mammalian toxicity. It is primarily effective against aphids, whiteflies, thrips, scales (crawlers), pyslla, leafhoppers, mealybugs, some beetle and weevil species, and leafminers. The flow- able formulation is labeled on apples for aphids (except woolly apple aphid), leafminers, leafhop- pers and San Jose scale and on pears for aphids, pear psylla, mealybug, and San Jose scale. It has also shown activity against pear midge when applied at petal fall. This material has no effect on any mites, beneficial or phytophagous, but is hard on Stethorus. High bee-poisoning hazard, exhibiting toxicity on contact plus repellency and hive disorientation. wonder where that disorientation info originated from? For fun tomorrow I think I'll give Bayer a call and see what they have to say about Imidacloprid use in the USA and honeybees. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 21:43:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: CCD in Ont In-Reply-To: <1176234428.3528320082@matrix.start.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, Hoe did you have determined that your north yard was culled 100% by CCD ? Regards, Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 19:55:55 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: tracheal mites in queen cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We do not have tracheal mites on Prince Edward Island, as far as we = know, and we test a considerable sample of the bees here annually. = There are beekeepers wishing to import queen genetics from areas which = do have tracheal mites. We approved a protocol last year for importing = frames with eggs for grafting, as long as those eggs were held away from = adults for at least 12 hours. Now apparently there are beekeepers applying to import capped queen = cells, and they are saying that this is safe and unlikely to import = tracheal mites. =20 I do not know enough about the biology of tracheal mites to have an = informed opinion about this, and although I intend to find out more, in = the meantime I would be interested in hearing the opinions of others, or = would appreciate any pointers to good information, or even a good search = term to use with the bee-l archives. Thanks Stan=20 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 07:19:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: tracheal mites in queen cells In-Reply-To: <200704111106.l3BAb1uk010983@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Stan, My guess is there would be minimal concern importing tracheal mites in queen cells. The Tracheal Mite life cycle is mature mites leave infected bees' tracheal and "hang out" (the actual term is "quest") waiting for a bee of proper age (3 days or less from emerging from the cell). When a bee of proper age comes by, the questing mite grabs on and makes its way into the host's tracheal tube. Crisco patties (solid vegetable oil patties) work by impairing the mites' ability to detect a bee of proper age. They spend more time questing and less time finding, which increases the likelihood that they will meet a natural demise (mainly desiccation). Since the queens have yet to emerge from their cell, I don't imagine Tracheal Mites will be a concern. I suppost a mite could be questing on a queen cup, but would guess if so the mite would die in the incubator. Aaron Morris - almost positive, but not willing to bet Johnson! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 07:09:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Irwin_Harlton?= Subject: Honey price up in Argentina Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ARGENTINA BY THE GREAT DEMAND THE HONEY INCREASES ITS PRICE IN THE SANTIAGO DEL ESTERO PROVINCE >From the Apicultural Department of the Ministry of the Production of the Province one inquired that the kilo of honey is being sold to $3.80 (US$ 1,22) in the province, paid by the exporter. Improvement in price has his origin in situations in the national and international markets, which it happens through the shortage of honey as a result of climatic questions that affected their yield by beehive, among other causes. http://www.apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 07:51:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: virus spread by contamination on flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, > How did Norman control virus in the experiment? I don't believe virus is controllable with what is known today. At least the conclusion we came up with in Florida in 2003. >From memory I believe the research at Rothamsted included the constant monitor of hives for virus and with certain management procedures such as starting new hives on foundation, some hives & bees when tested had little or no virus detectable. To do the type of testing Rothamsted did privately you need need a way to test for virus. When these (none or low virus load )hives had their varroa loads increased the bees were able to tolerate varroa without crashing. A similar situation I have observed with the Russian bee. High varroa load but no PMS signs. Sadly I had no way to test virus load back then nor has the subject of the Russian bee and virus load ever researched although I have suggested the same to several researchers. After Dr. Harbo I gave up. Has our researchers been looking at varroa control wrong as Dr. Carrick suggested? Was the use of chemicals to fight the growth of varroa by researchers in the 80's the wrong approach and we are paying now? Is Havatan ( new untested *long term* chemical) the current varroa answer or simply the industry accepting a temporary fix which we may pay for later? Norman Carrick thought his findings would be very exciting to the beekeeping world and was disappointed in my opinion when little was ever made of his research. In fact I have been told that both Norman Carrick & Brenda Ball no longer do research at Rothmsted. Perhaps if funding happens in the U.S. these people could be involved? If you pull out all the deadouts which died from beekeeper mismanagement and those deaths related from lack of good pollen and nectar last fall from drought in the Midwest and look at the rest called CCD then: If the current named CCD problems are mainly mite/virus related ( as I predicted a very long time ago on BEE_L) then commercial beekeepers have got big problems. As always I am taking the research of Diana Cox Foster very seriously and have already started to making new changes besides the changes I started in 2003 ( completed in 2006)after seeing first hand what virus problems did in Florida. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:19:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: tracheal mites in queen cells In-Reply-To: <000201c77c0b$b77ac7b0$442e9aa5@stanshoney> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Stan said: Now apparently there are beekeepers applying to import capped queen cells, and they are saying that this is safe and unlikely to import tracheal mites. Tracheal mites don't live in or on capped queen cells. The mites only live on or in live honey bees.There is zero risk of introducing HBTM through the importation of capped queen cells. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:49:20 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: virus spread by contamination on flowers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I don't believe virus is controllable with what is known today. At least the conclusion we came up with in Florida in 2003. Due honey bees, like humans, produce antibodies when exposed to virus? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 07:51:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Kraus Subject: Re: Imidacloprid Comments: To: amesfarm@HOTMAIL.COM In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Brian Fredericksen wrote: > "I did some background research on Imidacloprid and > here are the trade names sold in the US" Imidacloprid is found in granules for controlling lawn grubs, liquid for tree and shrub pest control, and even in some potting soil mixes and fertilizers. Available at every Walmart in the country, I bet! http://ipm.ncsu.edu/current_ipm/palert40.html http://www.yardener.com/Tree&ShrubInsectControlbyBayer.html http://forums.lawncare.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=44&threadid=11683&enterthread=y FWIW, David Kraus ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:10:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Colony Collapse and Virus Control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings It seems quite obvious that to control the collapse of honey bee colonies, you have to control the viruses. This means getting rid of the mites which carry & transmit the virus. Although honey bee colonies vary on the number of mites that will kill them, having large numbers of parasitic mites would be harmful even without the viruses. * * * In the first five years after V. destructor was detected in Britain SPV infections appeared in severely infested colonies, whilst towards the end of that period DWV began to be detected. In the second five-year period, SPV continued to increase in prevalence, and DWV became almost universal. The markedly greater prevalence of SPV in experimental colonies in comparison to the national average in infested colonies may be explained by the absence of mite control measures in these colonies and the natural spread of mites containing virus to neighbouring colonies also used in studies. – VIRUS SUCCESSION IN HONEYBEE COLONIES INFESTED WITH VARROA DESTRUCTOR. N.L. CARRECK, et al * * * If you have found several of your hives dead or moribund, for no apparent reason, you are not alone. Often, there are hardly any dead bees, never mind live ones. Norman Carrick, from Rothamstead, said it was almost certainly due to virus infection, probably vectored by varroa. Paralysis virus or deformed wing virus are the most likely culprits. In the latter, the bees can be infected as adults as well as larvae, which greatly shortens their life span. If the autumn bees are infected they simply do not live long enough to get through the winter, but crawl out to die, or are cleaned out by healthy bees. Hopefully, any remnants that have survived so far will pick up as the weather improves. -- THE APIARIST May 2005 * * * Autumn is the time at which the colony is at greatest risk to viruses and maintaining a mite population below 2500 will prevent APV epidemics and confine DWV to low levels. To prevent DWV epidemics would require treatment at smaller mite populations, i.e. reducing the mite population to below 700. If prevention of DWV is an aim then this may be more easily achieved at the start of the summer when the threshold mite load required to eliminate DWV is larger. It is, however, difficult to eliminate completely any bee virus from a colony, since the reduction of the mite population does not affect the normal cycle of bee to bee transmissions that allows the virus to persist at inapparent levels within the colony. Sporadic appearance of overtly infected bees will always occur and if sufficient mites are present the viral-mite transmission route will become re-established. -- The dynamics of virus epidemics in Varroa -infested honey bee colonies. D. J. T. SUMPTER, et al * * * Because most if not all infested EHB (European Honey Bee) colonies are unable to prevent the relentless growth of the mite population they all eventually die. The timing of colony collapse is dependant on the presence of overt infections of key bee viruses such as DWV, slow and acute paralysis viruses. Under temperate conditions in autumn, when the colony is at most risk, a mite population of 700 mites is needed to sustain a DWV infection within a typical colony, while 3000- 4000 mites are needed to actually cause the death of the colony. However, under sub-tropical/tropical conditions where brood is almost continuously reared then over 2000 mites are needed to sustain the infection, while 6000-12000 mites (depending on the size of the colony) are needed to kill it. However, this increase in mite threshold level under subtropical/ tropical conditions is more than offset by the mite's better growth potential under these conditions. This explains why all infested EHB colonies collapse as they are unable to prevent either the mite population growth or appearance of the viral pathogens Peter Borst NY State USA -- INTERACTIONS BETWEEN HONEYBEES, BEE VIRUSES AND VARROA Stephen J. Martín ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 06:22:29 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Molokai Meli, LLC" Subject: Mites in Hawaii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Yes, we were just notified of tracheal mites found in hives on Oahu, Hawaii. We have had strict agricultural laws forbidding importation of bees to the state to keep from mite infestation. I have yet to find out the origin of the infected hives. We are the largest commercial honey producers on one of the smaller islands and have up to this point not had to concern ourselves with mite problems. We would like to keep our island free of mites. My guess would be we need some further restriction of transporting bees from one (infected) island to another (noninfected) island. We're just beekeepers and not politicians. Anyone out there have some advice as to where to start in saving our hives? Molokai Meli ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:27:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: Re: Anyone selling tracheal-mite susceptible stock is either lazy or incompetent Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Queen breeders are going to produce only what the market demands. The market does not now, and has not in the past, demanded tracheal mite resistance, AFB hygiene, nor varroa mite tolerance. Hobbyists ask for these traits, but not the bulk of queen purchasers. Great lines of bees have been developed, only to be ignored in the market. Varroa, AFB, and tracheal mite could be minor issues if we shifted the genetics of the north American bee population. Unfortunately, this is unlikely to happen until the consumer demands this from the producers. I have personal commercial experience over the past 25 years with bees having the three traits, either alone, or in combination. I have found them to be profitable to run, with greater colony survival and production, and less labor. I can't understand why everyone doesn't demand them. Once such lines are developed, they are no more costly to produce. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:53:58 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: How nurse bees feed larvae. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It's written in many places that honey bees prefer to feed nectar [instead of honey] to larvae [after the royal jelly feeding period]. Does anyone know what sugar concentration in the nectar bees prefer for this feeding? I assume they make moisture adjustments to get an optimal concentration. Thank you. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:43:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: pollen as disease carrier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Over the years, our work with pollutants clearly showed that pollen was a route of entry of many things into the hives, especially anything in particulate form. Whereas some chemicals are systemically translocated into pollen, much of what we saw were particles interspersed among the pollen grains. This was especially pronounced in the case of heavy metals like lead, arsenics, cadmium - in bee colonies in semi-arid regions, where as the weather got dry and windy, air-borne dust fell on the the flowers, and the pollen, more than the nectar, became contaminated. Some good rains would usually end any bee loss problems -- we saw many cases of accumulation of metals in beehives to toxic levels during these periods. For the most part, the source of the contaminants was industrial and vehicle pollution (smelters, lead in gas, cadmium from tires, composted materials used as fertilizers). The Italians were the first to demonstrate that honey bees and pollen could be used to detect the presence of phytopathogenic microoranisms in the environment (Porrina et al., 2002; Merighi et al., 1999, 2000). They showed that bee gathered pollen could be used for prevention and to help in epidemiological studies of Erwinia amylovora (a bacterium caused severe disease among Rosaceae, Fire Blight). The study was based on the assumption that bees might spread the disease by carrying the bacteria, but turning this around so that the bees were used to provide the earliest indication of a pending outbreak. We later conducted and published several studies on the electrostatic uptake of small particles (from microbeads to bacteria to virus) by bees, even modeling the rate of uptake and the phenomena of adsorbing onto the body of the bee relative to particle size and the charge on the bee (Lighthart et al. in early 2000s). For what its worth. Jerry ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:52:22 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Intricate transmission routes and interactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There has been a lot of interpretation and speculation involving the name Diana Cox-Foster. A quick Google turns up a number of references, including articles: http://tinyurl.com/28qjja Including this one: http://tinyurl.com/22nwpw >From the horse's mouth. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:05:52 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > > Gaucho is used extensively as a seed treatment on > sweet and/or field corn, canola, sunflowers, green beans > and sugar beets here in MN. > I have been concerned about atrazine traces and gmo corn > as inputs into corn syrup on top of other recent > infomation. > Wonderful we can't get away from chems anywhere. I visit the upper Midwest frequently to monitor migratory butteflies. Butterflies are susceptible to very small amounts of pesticides. Nevertheless, I find butterflies are spectacularly abundant in the intense GMO corn and soybean regions of northern Iowa and southern Minnesota. Examples: http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/mastertech/gilc.jpg http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/mastertech/trua.jpg http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/mastertech/monod.jpg http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/mastertech/gilb.jpg http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/mastertech/plbestt.jpg Thus I feel the margins of GMO crops are excellent habitats for butterflies and other pollinators. Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:20:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: Mites in Hawaii In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Molokai Meli said: Yes, we were just notified of tracheal mites found in hives on Oahu, Hawaii. We have had strict agricultural laws forbidding importation of bees to the state to keep from mite infestation. Molokai: Our information is that finding was Varroa mites. It is not Tracheal Mites. Please check with your Hawaiian Dept of Agriculture. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:21:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > Well, the number that they are citing is "between 650,000 and 800,000". Yes, > it is based on extrapolation of data. That's what is done whenever the > actual number can't be determined. > Not true since it is a biased sample. You first ask for those who suffer from the problem then extrapolate from that? Your result will be biased high since most who do not have the problem will not report. For extrapolation to work the sample should be random and unbiased. Neither are at work here. Plus, what I asked for is simple- what are the actual numbers of reported collapsed colonies and how many are definitely CCD. I think those would be nice numbers to know to get some perspective. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 16:57:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry TRURO, Thursday, February 14, 2002 The bee population went through a crisis. They were looking at one of the pesticides that was used on potatoes. Mr. Vautour: Yes. That pesticide is called imidacloprid. It is used on potatoes as an interval or full-year spray. We just came back from a study that was done on it on Prince Edward Island and in New Brunswick by Dick Rogers and Dr. Jim Kemp from UPEI. They could find no evidence that bees could get at it, so we were relieved. We thought that was the source of the problem. It causes a nerve problem in the bees. If they get it in the pollen, in the honey, the plant absorbs it, bugs eat it and it disorients the bugs. It started in France. When they started using that product on sunflowers, people noticed that their bees were becoming disoriented and not finding their way back to the hive. We thought that was a problem that was restricted to Prince Edward Island and then we noticed it in New Brunswick. These were only observations, and they were not based on scientific data. The scientific data seems to indicate that is not the problem * * * Kentville, N.S., March 8, 2002. A collaborative research project recently found that imidacloprid (Admire) was not found in pollen and nectar of wild flowers and clover flowers in years following an in-furrow application of the product. The research project was undertaken as a result of a question raised by beekeepers – whether imidacloprid or its plant metabolites was the cause of the dwindling bee populations reported by beekeepers in Prince Edward Island and other areas. Admire is a popular insecticide for control of Colorado potato beetle and other insect pests in potatoes. Results of the Imidacloprid Residue Study were presented to the Canadian Honey Council and the Canadian Association of Professional Apiculturists in Banff on January 30, 2002. "In response to the beekeepers question, we investigated to see if there was detectable residue in clover leaves, clover flowers and wild flowers following an imidacloprid application. This was a big concern for some beekeepers," says Jim Kemp, a researcher of pollination biology and floral morphology in the UPEI department of biology and a co-principal investigator in the study. Dick Rogers, the other co-principal investigator and consulting entomologist with Wildwood Labs Inc. in Kentville, N.S., says, "Our answers to the question are based on determining the residue levels in parts per billion after imidacloprid was applied in-furrow. Measurements were taken in the current year and the first and second year after application." Imidacloprid and its two main metabolites (hydroxy and olefin forms) were not found in clover flowers and wildflowers, bee collected pollen and nectar, and uncapped honey. Residues can be measured when they are at or above the detectable limit of 2 parts per billion. "Some beekeepers had concerns that metabolites were an even larger problem than imidacloprid residues, and that's why they were included in the analysis," explains Kemp. "You have to feel for members of the agriculture industry like beekeepers who are going through a problem that's as mysterious as it can be devastating," says Veldon Sorensen, director of research for Bayer Inc, makers of Admire. "We're pleased to have done what we could toward solving one part of this problem, by funding independent research into whether Admire affects the environment of bees. By all appearances, it does not, which supports previous research on how Admire performs in the field." The study took place during the summer of 2001 in PEI and New Brunswick. It included sampling and analysis of over 3,800 soil cores, over 8,000 clover leaves, over 2,000 clover flowers, over 480 grams of wildflowers and over 6,000 honeybees. The Imidacloprid Residue Study was funded in part by the governments of Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick, with major funding by Bayer Inc. Additional partners and collaborators in the study included the Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada Research Branch, Cavendish Farms Research division, Jasper Wyman & Son and the potato growers and beekeepers of the Maritimes. For more information: Jim Kemp Professor Department of Biology University of Prince Edward Island Charlottetown, PEI jkemp@upei.ca Dick Rogers Consulting Entomologist Wildwood Labs Inc Kentville, Nova Scotia info@wildwoodlabs.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:45:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Gillmore Subject: Re: Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Fredericksen" > At least I feel a little better knowing that we probably don't have many spray applications being done with Imidacloprid nearby. < But don't overlook the residential sector. I toured my local Lowes the other day and was shocked after checking the labels on the lawn care products they are selling for insect control, dry and liquid. I have read that the residual properties of Imidacloprid in the soil can be 2 year or longer. Dandelions, Dutch Clover, Chick Weed,..... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 18:51:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: CCD:reality check Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit we interrupt our ongoing discussion on CCD to bring you..... http://www.registerguard.com/news/2007/04/11/a1.bees.0411.p1.php?section=cityregion ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 19:05:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> it is based on extrapolation of data. That's what is done whenever the >> actual number can't be determined. >> >Not true since it is a biased sample. You first ask for those who >suffer from the problem then extrapolate from that? The investigators have made it clear they are getting data from people who have it and from ones who don't. Obviously there is some degree of skewing in ANY survey. I am NOT a statistician so I cannot talk intelligently on that (I do know that this one of the major concerns of survey experts). If a third of the bees are gone from a few hundred beekeepers' hives in 20 something states, it is not far fetched to speculate that a third of the all the US bees may be gone. If there were 2.5 million colonies and a third died, that makes around 830 thousand dead (Jerry's number was 650 to 800). >Plus, what I asked for is simple- what are the actual numbers of >reported collapsed colonies and how many are definitely CCD. I think >those would be nice numbers to know to get some perspective. How can anyone say that the cause is definitely CCD if no one knows what it is? No causative agent, no test, no diagnosis, no treatment. Bottom line: all the clubs in the country should start surveying their own members. Don't wait for the big picture, because it will be pieced together from the small picture anyway. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 19:37:23 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Mites in Hawaii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The distance from the site where varroa were first found to Honolulu Airport (5 miles) forces me to wonder if any of those "plane changing bees" from NZ might have escaped, flown towards a light (assuming that they are still only allowed on planes that land at night) and formed a swarm. The proximity of the site to the Honolulu harbor is closer (3 miles), but the length of even the fastest ocean voyage to Hawaii from anywhere makes me wonder how a swarm could survive that long. While an AHB colony certainly could set up shop in a cargo container and put up enough stores to survive the trip, this seems unlikely, as the varroa-infested bees were not described as "defensive", and we have to give AHB credit for expanding more quickly than varroa can. Does anyone know someone involved in USDA APHIS at Honolulu Airport that could be able to confirm/deny any "incidents" in the transshipment of bees from overseas? Alternative scenarios for the introduction of varroa to the island of Oahu are welcome, but varroa can't be kept alive for long away from bees, even in lab environments, so I think we need to focus on how bees infested with varroa could have gotten past the various plant/animal inspections, and thereby rule out sources other than the transshipment of bees forced upon Hawaii by APHIS as a part of the WTO process. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 19:48:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD in Ont Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'd be interested to know too how CCD would express itself in wintered over northern hives. Is anyone anywhere claiming the bees vacated once temps moved into the 40F to -20F range for "winter" ? or upon the first warm spring weather? I wonder if Jerry B has any info from his survey and contacts. Unless I hear a credible report otherwise I find these winter CCD claims baseless as it adds an additional dimension to the CCD symptom list. Like a death wish to leave the hive in very cold weather? I doubt it, seems like a me too story. Its not consistent with the list of CCD symptoms. There are dozens of possible reasons for winter losses. I know because I have them too in MN and this past winter was a bit higher for me then other seasons. Such is beekeeping and the weather. All my deadouts have dead bees in them, to less experienced beekeepers on this list that is classic winter kill not CCD where the hive would be basically MT with few if any live bees. Jerry B, can you please verify what I am saying and comment? we seem to be getting some northern post winter CCD reports like this thread that don't fit the pattern. I think it would be helpful to some list readers to clear this up. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:20:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 19:05:29 -0400, Peter Borst wrote: > >If a third of the bees are gone from a few hundred beekeepers' hives in 20 >something states, to me the map of 20 something states says nothing more then at least one beekeeper who has a mailing address in that state reported "apperent" CCD symptoms. it does not even imply that the hives affected were in that state at time of said CCD discovery. until numbers/state are attached to that map and the widely cited claim of X number of states are affected, its all worthless chatter as it does nothing to define the SCOPE of the problem. >all the clubs in the country should start surveying their own members. that could easily lead to more erroneous data collected in areas which have a real winter. unless the survery was limited to asking about last season and into fall I have asked many times here..if you have over wintered hives in the north and they had bees in them in fall, how would CCD happen after temps fall below 40F and stay there until spring? I don't see bees leaving hives at winter temps as part of the CCD symptom list. like had bees in fall, wrapped and came back in march to empty hive.? come on folks we have ZERO reports of that. . in fact I would say all these over wintered CCD claims are the most bogus of all. its CCD me too syndrome. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:27:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Mites in Hawaii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Anyone out there have some advice as to where to start in saving our=20 > hives? >=20 > I think importation of resistant stock or cells is certainly an option = to at least consider( I dont know what hoops you would have to jump = through however to import them). An aggressive program with these = lines-based on my experience- could probably give you an essentially = resistant population in 4 years...at least for varroa, and there are = tracheal resistant strains also. John Horton ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 01:24:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: CCD in Ont Brian: >CCD where the hive would be basically MT with few if any live bees. exactly so -- about 1 cup only of corpses A normal deadout will have ~ 1 gallon corpses A varroa crash will have 1-2 liters No bees (bodys) in frames 95% of the feed still there No corpses on 'porch' No apparant pile in front of hive? When did they go? My guess is Oct/November Peter: try reading more closely dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 02:56:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I received a number of back channel responses thanks, some of the other insidious uses of this material not posted yet are: poplar, cottonwood trees and also ash trees for emerarld ash borer a growing problem moving west into the great lakes region blueberries citrus: oranges i happened to reread the Diana Cox-Foster report Allen Dick posted on 4/11 and was struck by how significant of a potential cause of CCD she felt Imidacloprid might be. the fact that the east coast and florida seem to be ground zero for CCD makes one wonder with the rotation of migratory keepers from FL citrus to blueberries in the NE. That would also imply a spring dose and a late summer too. Yikes. As an apple grower I can tell you that a product may be labeled for use on such and such a fruit for a wide list of pests. But that does not tell the whole story. Whats missing for me in the question of citrus and blueberries is an understanding of the pest cycles and what growers prefer to use etc. Imidacloprid may or may not be widely used on these crops during times close to bloom, or the material could be used long after bloom periods. Colonies left in these areas long after the bloom could have been exposed in that scenario to this material while those who pulled out after bloom may be unexposed. Then the issue of clover or flowers blooming under post bloom fruit trees getting sprayed. Lots of different scenarios and maybe little to no chance at all of encountering this stuff. The only way to find that out is to survery some growers or chem supply houses in those regions. I wonder if anyone is documenting the spread and use of this material in the last 3-4 yrs other then Bayer? might be public info too if state ag depts are tracking. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:55:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > If a third of the bees are gone from a few hundred beekeepers' hives... > Were they from CCD? That is the number I would like to see, just the number of colonies that actually died from CCD. There are specific symptoms of CCD. Granted that there is some similarity to mite and virus problems, but I will give you that ambiguity. Just like to see an actual number not an extrapolation. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 08:38:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD in Ont In-Reply-To: <1176355463.1686083428@matrix.start.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are assumptions here, that the mite collapse occurred during the winter and then you will have lots of dead bees. If you collapse in the fall, bees can fly out and die, plus bees will clean out the dead in the hive. So you can have CCD symptoms but the actual cause is mites for a winter kill. CCD is tied to fall dwindling but you can get the same from mites. Tracheal will leave a "cup of corpses" and lots of honey if it kills most of the bees off in fall. I have one colony that died this past winter that has a cup full of bees left and plenty of honey, but know it was mites and probably tracheal, not CCD. This was the second winter that I did not use Crisco patties, so I put the blame where it should be, on the bad beekeeper. I have no problem in acknowledging that CCD exists especially since it has the same symptoms of past diseases for which no definitive cause has been found. Plus, it has appeared with a certain periodicity. I remember back some 10+ years ago when Andy spoke of it on this list. But it was just another problem beekeepers faced and it was not the end of bees and beekeeping. It happened and disappeared for another 10 to 15 years. That sounds a lot like the life cycle of some organism and not anything new. You could blame it on sunspots, since they have an 11 year cycle. The warming associated with sun activity could trigger fungal growth. It is easy to hypothesize. For any scientific inquiry, it would be nice to have a good baseline before the disease hits, and from what I have seen and heard, that is questionable. We are relying on the reputation of the reporter and not hard facts. From my observations of some large beekeeping operations, the beekeepers, although large, did not possess superior knowledge and could not recognize problems in their own operations, or chose to ignore them. That will bias the data significantly. To rely on reports is bad science when you are trying to find a definitive cause, but is, unfortunately, the situation that we are in. So I still ask, how many confirmed CCD colonies have died? Add another question, how many of those were observed before collapse by the CCD team? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 08:51:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: A very unscientific poll In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We can run a poll of beekeepers on this list who have been effected by CCD. If you have been effected by CCD, please email me. You will only be a data point and your email will be trashed after you are counted, and my memory is such that it will go no further. If you want to add more info, such as number of colonies and number killed by CCD, that would be appreciated but not necessary. My address is (to make it easy to reply): bhfarms@suscom-maine.net At the end of two weeks, I will report the very unscientific findings. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:42:02 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > a study that was done on it on Prince Edward Island and in New Brunswick > by Dick Rogers and Dr. Jim Kemp from UPEI. They could find no evidence > that bees could get at it, so we were relieved. > Results of the Imidacloprid Residue Study were presented to the > Canadian Honey Council and the Canadian Association of Professional > Apiculturists in Banff on January 30, 2002. > Imidacloprid and its two main metabolites (hydroxy and olefin forms) > were not found in clover flowers and wildflowers, bee collected pollen > and nectar, and uncapped honey. Residues can be measured when they are > at or above the detectable limit of 2 parts per billion. > The study took place during the summer of 2001 in PEI and New > Brunswick. It included sampling and analysis of over 3,800 soil cores, > over 8,000 clover leaves, over 2,000 clover flowers, over 480 grams of > wildflowers and over 6,000 honeybees. And the admissibility of study was brought into serious doubt in the question period almost immediately after presentation, when Dr. Bromenshenk stood up and asked -- since apparently all the results had come back, rather surprisingly, showing levels as "non-detectible" -- whether *any* of the *many thousands* of samples sent to outside labs had been spiked with known concentrations to test and verify that the lab actually did the analysis properly. The researchers blanched, and replied, "No". Enough said. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:00:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Marie Celeste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline When John Chapple, one of London's largest keepers of honeybees, opened his 40 hives after the winter, he was shocked: 23 were empty, seven contained dead bees, and only 10 were unaffected by what seemed to be a mystery plague. Beekeepers are used to diseases sweeping through their colonies, and, nationally, nearly one in seven colonies dies naturally each winter. But this seemed very different to Mr Chapple, who is head of the London Beekeepers Association and has 20 years' experience with the insects and their diseases. "The problem was that most of the bees had just disappeared. It was like the Marie Celeste. There was no chance they had been stolen," he said yesterday. "The ones that were left did not seem to have been attacked by varroa [the tiny parasitical mite that beekeepers have learned to live with since it arrived from Asia 15 years ago]. I really do not know what happened". Government bee inspectors met yesterday, but Mike Brown, head of the national bee unit based in York, reported no signs of CCD in Britain. "There is no evidence in the UK right now of colony collapse disorder," he said in a statement. "The majority of inspectors said that they can put the current mortalities in honeybee populations around the UK down to varroa or varroasis." "I just don't know where they get their information," said Mr Chapple. "They took away some of my bees but I have heard nothing. All I know that something is very wrong with our bees." http://environment.guardian.co.uk/conservation/story/0,,2055067,00.html -- I like the name "Marie Celeste phenomenon" so much better than CCD -- pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:43:12 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Marie Celeste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Brits know how to apply humour to any thing even (CCD) _http://www.wiltshirebeekeepers.org.uk/Melksham/Chuckle%20With%20Chad.htm_ (http://www.wiltshirebeekeepers.org.uk/Melksham/Chuckle%20With%20Chad.htm) Walter Ontario ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 16:54:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Wayne Young Subject: Re: CCD in Ont In-Reply-To: <461E2833.1050107@suscom-maine.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed At 08:38 AM 4/12/2007 -0400, you wrote: >There are assumptions here, that the mite collapse occurred during the >winter and then you will have lots of dead bees. If you collapse in the >fall, bees can fly out and die, plus bees will clean out the dead in the hive. Hi Bill, Do you know of any definite cases of CCD in Maine? That is I know a hard question to determine an answer for being that the bees might have suffered from other problems. I haven`t kept myself up to date to know how far this has gone. I guess a big problem is going to be the trucking of bees up into Maine for pollinating.This is something that can`t be avoided,but I hope that CCD doesn`t cover the whole Northern area of the country. As I mentioned earlier being in my location I don`t use Apistan or any other chemical on my bees,and have had know problem. Wayne Young ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:37:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD in Ont In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20070412163844.0102d810@incoming.verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wayne Young wrote: > > Do you know of any definite cases of CCD in Maine? None that I know of. > > I guess a big problem is going to be the trucking of bees up into > Maine for pollinating.This is something that can`t be avoided,but I > hope that CCD doesn`t cover the whole Northern area of the country. We will be talking about that on Saturday at our Annual Meeting. Will let all know what we find out. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:26:58 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: virus spread by contamination on flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If the current named CCD problems are mainly mite/virus related > (as I predicted a very long time ago on BEE_L) then commercial > beekeepers have got big problems. First, I'm not clear on where the link has shown between detectable virus on combs, and the same virus infecting hitherto virus-free bees placed upon that comb. Given that we have the technology to detect specific viruses in specific bee tissue and mites without extraordinary effort or expense, I don't feel that this is an unreasonable expectation. Second, we know that the absolute best way to communicate viruses between bees is via varroa, so we've had excellent opportunities to see worst-case scenarios of viruses for decades. Why would the build-up of viruses on comb result in symptoms never before seen, when the much more direct transmission mechanism of "bee to varroa to bee" has never produced such symptoms? Even if we had a "new virus" behind CCD, why would the virus not be transmitted in "traditional" ways? I have a hard time buying both "a new virus" >>>and<<< a new mechanism for transmission of that virus, both newly appearing at the same time. So why would the symptoms associated with CCD show up now, if this were a virus-driven problem? And how could the problem be so widespread "all at once", defying the usual pattern of epidemiology (not to be confused with entomology, epistemology, or etymology). I have similar doubts about many of the theories being put forth about CCD. When diagrammed, they seem to defy the usual mechanisms of both "disease spread" and "environmental contamination". To compare and contrast, we have the contaminated pet food situation to show us just how quickly answers can appear when there is a clear pattern common to multiple cases. We don't seem to have any statement from anyone that would lead us to understand "the pattern to CCD". Not to date, anyway. And to make matters worse, these same symptoms have been seen before in the 1970s and 1960s, long before varroa showed up in North America. In these prior "outbreaks", the problems apparently went away on their own before the cause(s) could be found. I need a stiff drink. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 20:17:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lanfeust Subject: Re: Colony Collapse and Virus Control In-Reply-To: Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just read Mr. Borst's post about collony collapse & virus control review through articles extracts. Thinking about this topic, I remembered I read something about mathematical modelisation of varroa & viruses in hives some years ago (I'm the kind that like maths, equations and models). My memories pointed me to Mussen's newsletters. I found the article back in his sept. 2004 newsletter. " Mathematicians Predict Colony Collapse It is always interesting to see how experts outside the usual realm of apiculture can apply their expertise to beekeeping topics. In this case, a group of mathematicians built a model to determine what number of varroa mites (vectors) would be needed to cause a virus epidemic in a honey bee colony. [...] The mathematical model was pretty complex, since a whole lot of factors are involved in the process – aspects of the life cycle of bees, life cycle of mites, virulence of the chosen virus, etc. Their general conclusions were: The more virulent the virus (the quicker the infected bee died), the more mites were needed to get an epidemic started. Acute paralysis virus (APV) and Kashmir bee virus (KBV) re virulent types. A less virulent virus, like deformed wing virus (DWV), allows the bees to live a longer time, thus giving many bees and mites a chance to become infected. So, their predicted numbers of mites to cause serious problems in the summer are 12,289 for the virulent viruses and 2,315 for the less virulent ones. In the fall the numbers of mites needed to cause trouble are reduced, as are the bee and brood numbers. Then, the numbers are 6,830 for virulent viruses and 737 for less virulent ones. Can our colonies reach these levels of mite loads? It is quite likely. The literature has many articles describing counts above those levels. Also, the mathematicians' model suggested that the only modifications to the model that impacted the epidemic potential were changes that reduced mite numbers. Decreasing numbers of infected bees (resistance or tolerance) or removal of dead or infected brood (hygienic behavior) were not effective, unless the mites were removed as the brood was being removed. This suggests that we should place the greatest emphasis of our studies on how to reduce the number of mites in a colony. This information sounds similar to malaria, where if there are no mosquitoes (vectors) around, there isn't much of a disease problem. The complete citation for this article is: Sumpter, D.J.T. and S.J. Martin. 2004. The dynamics of virus epidemics in Varroa-infested honey bee colonies. Journal of Animal Ecology 73: 51-63. Hervé Laval, Qc, Canada -- Hervé www.emelys.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:55:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Someone passed this story on to me today. http://ellsworthmaine.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7503&Itemid=31 hey Bill T is ellsworth near you? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:17:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Imidacloprid In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > hey Bill T is ellsworth near you? > Downeast, which means further up route one along the coast. It is amazing how many things are blamed. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:01:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: CCD and where do the bees go ! In-Reply-To: <1176423462.26532.1184362461@webmail.messagingengine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Part of the CCD problem that causes a problem for me is the often quoted symptom that the bees disappear. Realizing that it is difficult to visit fields and spot dead bees (that is if they are actually there) - several beekeepers have suggested that they have been in proximity of working hives that were loosing bees. Would it not have been possible to follow / observe these foragers, hopefully before finally disappearing and recording their behaviour on blooms that they were working. This was undertaken in France during periods of study relating to effects of Imidaclopride and Fipronil on honey bees. They were digitally filmed in areas of no application and treated crops. The resulting sequences were most interesting in helping demonstrate the reduction of harvesting ability and overall co-ordination of the individual bees. Bees do not disappear - We are not finding them ! Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:05:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Bee losses in Spain In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those wishing to improve their Spanish: http://www.laverdad.es/alicante/prensa/20070405/provincia_alicante/sindrome-abandono-afecto-colmenas_20070405.html 120,000 colonies lost in Spain. Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:16:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: CCD in Ont In-Reply-To: <1176355463.1686083428@matrix.start.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, Re-read your mail - sorry about reading north rather than south (late nights moving out bees is my excuse !). Still would like to know since : You wrote on 10/04/2007: "The south yard had 100% CCD" Have you had the losses confirmed as CCD, or is this your personal diagnosis ? Regards, Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 08:25:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Colony Collapse and Virus Control In-Reply-To: <1176423462.26532.1184362461@webmail.messagingengine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hervé's post on the mathematical model and Varroa collapse triggered my thoughts on controlling the variables in any trial. The paper dealt only with Varroa so variables were controlled. Several of the collapses we have seen in Maine were a combination of Varroa and Tracheal. It is a given that Tracheal has been around for a long time and most bees deal with it fairly well. Unfortunately, there were years before Varroa when widespread collapse occurred for no good reason but Tracheal was the apparent cause. 50 to 80% losses were not unusual. Tracheal modus is a gradual weakening of the colony and collapse during late winter. Varroa can cause collapse in any season. Tracheal seems to operate on a cycle, that for quite some time everything seems under control then a year comes along when everyone loses bees. Then all goes quite again. If Tracheal were added to the mathematical model, my guess is the Varroa mite load could be much less to cause collapse in a short time. That seems to be just what happened to one beekeeper who had high mite loads in the spring and lost most of his hives later in the year. CCD was blamed, but it is obvious that it was mites. Most of the CCD symptoms were there, so it is easy to pin the tail on that donkey. Others in Maine lost bees, and mostly because of the dynamic duo, not Varroa alone. In most if not all cases, Tracheal was not treated for, since we all know that Tracheal resistant bees are the only ones we have. I treated the hive I lost for Varrao (OA) but not Tracheal for two years and the symptoms were classic Tracheal. It is interesting that some CCD symptoms are also Tracheal symptoms (as well as Varroa collapse symptoms). This post is not to discount CCD, since it has been around several times before, or at least its identical twin (Disappearing Disease and Fall Dwindling disease). We live in interesting beekeeping times, and I would not discount a combination of mites to give rapid colony death which mimics CCD. Especially since that is exactly what happened to one CCD statistic. We have a whole load of variables out there, all out of control and that include the beekeeper. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:04:48 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Bee losses in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For those who have no wish to improve their Spanish, there is have "google translation". No claim that this is CCD-related. ============================ ALICANTE/the syndrome of the abandonment affected 120,000 beehives of the Community The syndrome of the despoblamiento that affects to the beekeeping world-wide level caused the death of more than 1,000 million bees. This syndrome had a negative repercussion in 120,000 beehives in the Valencian Community during last the three years, according to it indicates the Union of Farmers and Cattle (Coordinating of Organizations of Agriculturists and Cattle dealers). Union, worried because the rate of loss of life of bees has risen to a 50%, took samples during the last months to collaborate in projects with the purpose of deciphering the origin of this massive despoblamiento. Although the causes of this syndrome are not clear, it is associated to them to two types. On the one hand, are the sanitary reasons (virosis, nosemosis, varrosis) and, by another one, the environmental-productive ones (adverse climate, use of fitosanitarios, deficiencies of honey and polen). The continuous climatic changes and the drought could act like detonating of a general decay of the beehives. In addition, in the Valencian Community another cause is added: the one of decrees to limit the polinización crossed in plantations of citruses. The European Union recognizes within the framework that the beekeeping is essential for our environment and that straight must own to be including within the new Program of support to Rural Development 2007-2013, of the agroambientales measures. For this reason, Union hopes that the Conselleria de Agricultura makes specific its proposal of directed aids to the sector as they already have other independent communities with certain apicultural relevance. The Union trusts that the Generalitat guarantees the viability and beginning of the commitments acquired in the matter of agroambientales aids since the situation is very serious. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:01:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: How varroa kill bees In-Reply-To: <461F76D1.10403@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This from MSN this morning buried in an article on varroa in Hawaii.... Varroa mites, indigenous to Asia but spreading on the U.S. Mainland, bore holes in a bee's body for the blood. The bee's wings then fall off. Until now there have been no Varroa mites in Hawaii. So now we know..... Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 Kim@BeeCulture.com www.BeeCulture.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:41:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Bee losses in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I translated the article myself, a little better than Google I hope: ALICANTE / Honey bee disappearing disease has affected 120,000 colonies in the Valencia Region The "Disappearing Disease" or "Colony Collapse Disorder" that is affecting beekeeping at a world-wide level has caused the death of more than a billion bees. This phenomenon has harmed some 120,000 colonies in Valencia during the past three years, according to the Union of Farmers and Cattle Raisers (COAG). COAG, worried because bee mortality has risen to 50%, took samples during recent months in order to collaborate with projects aimed at finding the cause of the massive loss of bees. While the causes of this syndrome are not clear, there seem to be two categories. First, health issues such as viruses, nosema, varroa disease. Second, environmental factors such as adverse weather, treatments, and shortage of honey and pollen. Continual climate changes and drought could also cause a general decline in the colonies. Further, in the Valencia Region there is another possible cause: laws limiting bee pollination in citrus groves. The European Union recognizes that beekeeping is essential for our environment and it has a right to be included in the new Agro-Environmental Program of Development for 2007-2013. For this reason COAG hopes that the Agricultural Counsel fulfills its proposal of direct help to the sector as they already have for other regions with importance to beekeeping. The Union (COAG) trusts that the Government will back up their commitments in the matter of Agro-Environmental Assistance since the situation is very serious. -- Peter Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 08:26:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Where do they get these numbers? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst said," That's what is done whenever the actual number can't be determined." But isn't there some idea of what the actual number is amongst those who got this ball rolling in the first place? He also said, "Like polling a thousand voters to see which candidate will probably win." When this is done the poll publisher usually tells us the error rate. Plus or minus some number or percentage. What's the error rate in CCD loss projections? Mark Berninghausen --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:56:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just got off the phone with Gary Tucker, Insecticide Product Coordinator Florida tuckerg@doacs.state.fl.us (850) 487-2130 He indicated that Imidacloprid (Provado) use in oranges is minimal in past years mainly because it is a very expensive insecticide and most of the groves are for juice so the margins are low and the concern for cosmetic is low also. He did say that a newer pest the citrus psyllid pest is a growing concern as its a carrier of a serious disease called citrus greening http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/chrp/greening/minutes9-8-05.pdf Thus he thought there may be more possible use of Provado this season and in the future. More specialty citrus for eating would be the groves where Provado use is most likley as the margins are higher and fruit damage is more critical to keep low. FWIW they would be spraying now for this pest. He also noted the increased availability of the home owner version of Imidacloprid. Next is a similar call to the NE to see about Imidacloprid use on blueberries. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 15:23:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: As if CCD isn't enough! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/13/AR200704 1301227.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 19:51:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Small percentage of beekeepers affected by CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For those whom do not subscribe to Dr. Malcolm T. Sanford's informative and useful Apis Newsletter http://apis.shorturl.com/ The link below came from the most recent issue. http://pestalert.ifas.ufl.edu/Colony_Collapse_Disorder.htm This report published 4/10/07 from Dr. Jamie Ellis at the University of Florida and offers some new insights on CCD. most notably this quote: " Even though thousands of honey bee colonies are dying, a small percentage of U.S. beekeepers are reporting significant colony losses. However, these beekeepers typically manage commercial operations with thousands of colonies. Therefore, the data represent a minority of beekeepers but a large number of colonies. For example, less than 2% of all Florida beekeepers as of April 2007 reported colony losses to a disorder with symptoms matching those of CCD. Yet collectively, these beekeepers lost thousands of colonies." ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:42:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Mites in Hawaii Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit here is a new update on situation and its effects on Canada. the following is an email circulating from Hawaii dept of Ag. I have been advised by Dr. Medhat Nasr to relate these results to you regarding shipments of honeybee queens from the Big Island of Hawaii after the new finding of varroa mite on the island of Oahu, State of Hawaii. These are the result of a recent inspection of honey bees apiaries on the Big Island of Hawaii used for shipping queens to Canada and mainland US. All samples collected on April 9-10, 2007. Adult honey bees were collected from the brood chambers and processed for varroa mite using the alcohol shaking procedure. The distance between the Kona Queen to the Hawaiian Queen is about 57.2 km. This recent survey on the Kona side of the Big Island of Hawaii is to reinforce the negative finding of varroa and tropilaelaps mites during my last survey in January 2007. 1) Kona Queen Company: No varroa mite or tropilaelaps in Kona Queen samples [(honey bee sample size: two apiaries, 8 hives, 581 ± 107.2 workers per hive ( Mean ± SD)] 2) Big Island Queens: No varroa mite or tropilaelaps in Big Island Queens samples. Big Island Queen apiaries are 4.8 km south of Kona Queen. (three yards, three apiaries, sample size: 470 ± 68.2 workers per hive) 3) Hawaiian Honeybees: No varroa mite or tropilaelaps in Hawaiian Honeybee samples. Hawaiian Honey Bee apiary is 12.1 km south of Big Island Queen. (one apiary, four hives, sample size: 563.8 ± 140.8 workers per hive) 4) Hawaiian Queens Company: No varroa mite or tropilaelaps in Hawaiian Queen samples. Hawaiian Queen is 40.3 km from the Hawaiian Honey Bee. (one apiary, four hives, sample size: 421.5 ± 116.2 workers per hive). Kona Queen and Hawaiian Queens companies are preparing shipments to Canada and we urgently need your approval to proceed on these shipments. We appreciate your effort to help us with the varroa mite situation. Aloha, Mohsen _____________________________________________ Dr. Mohsen M. Ramadan Exploratory Entomologist State of Hawaii Department of Agriculture Division of Plant Industry, Plant Pest Control Branch 1428 South King Street, Honolulu, HAWAII 96814 (USA) Tel: (808) 973 9526 Fax: (808) 973 9533 email: mohsen.m.ramadan@hawaii.gov ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:04:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit add Clothianidin to the list of scary's, its from a similar class of insecticides called nicotinoids as Imidacloprid read what the EPA has to say about this material and honeybees "Clothianidin has the potential for toxic chronic exposure to honey bees, as well as other nontarget pollinators, through the translocation of clothianidin residues in nectar and pollen. " http://www.epa.gov/opprd001/factsheets/clothianidin.pdf how can they simutaneously put this warning in their documents and also approve it for use? where are our bee lobbysists when we need them? or maybe we don't have any? its stricly a corn & CANOLA seed treatment from Bayer's website Poncho® 250 For corn producers who want a safer, more convenient and effective method to control a wide range of corn insect pests, Poncho™ 250 seed-applied insecticide is the answer. Poncho 250 seed-applied insecticide protects both seed and seedlings from the damaging effects of wireworms, cutworms, white grubs, seedcorn maggot, grape colaspis, flea beetles (to the 4th true leaf), southern corn leaf beetle, chinch bug, southern green stinkbug, aphids, thrips and other insect pests through both systemic and contact activity. Unlike most other corn insecticides, Poncho 250 is applied to the seed by the seed conditioner and delivered to the farm, on the seed, in the bag. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:39:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Orchardists in a panic over CCD? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A grower called me today and left a message on my answering machine saying that he needed to speak to me immediately. So, my wife called me as soon as she got home to this message. I, of course, called the apple grower as soon as I hung up from talking to my wife. The apple grower was all excited about whether he was going to get his bees because the local television station had contacted him for his response on CCD storys. I reassured the grower that my bees are fine and that he and the other growers who I provide pollination for will have their bees. Everything will be fine. Also, all of the other growers in his area get bees from beekeepers that I know and I know that their bees are fine too. My apple grower wanted to send me an advance to insure that he would get his bees. We have a very good working relationship and he has been very helpful monetarely and friendship wise in the past. I hope that their aren't too many panicy growers out there, but I suspect that there are. Have any of you others experienced this? Mark Berninghausen Squeak Creek Apiaries Brasher Falls, NY p.s. the second time in my career that I was contacted by local news media was last week about CCD in Northern NY. --------------------------------- No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 01:08:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: CCD in Ont On Saturday 14 April 2007 04:00, Peter wrote: > Have you had the losses confirmed as CCD, or is this your personal > diagnosis ? And I would test for what? In any case the symptoms are quite clear-cut. if it was a varroa collapse there would be 1 or 2 frames with (partially canabalized) pupae These frames are clear & empty For me, last fall laying ceased up to 2 weeks earlier than usual (there's even a letter in the archive, I don't claim to have seen the signifigence then) Only 1 person has replied re formic late summer, it sounded like No (CCD) dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 03:48:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: And we think we have problems... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070413/ap_on_sc/france_hungry_hornets Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 16:33:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD in Ont In-Reply-To: <461EB4A9.7070300@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > Wayne Young wrote: >> >> Do you know of any definite cases of CCD in Maine? Took a poll at out Annual Meting and of the 154 there two said they had CCD. Talked to one and his could also have been mites. Did not see the other who raised their hand so could not talk to them. So from a poll point of view, a bit over 1% have something like CCD in Maine, but from a scientific point of view it is questionable if there are any. Also asked for those who have ever suffered collapse from virus at any time and half raised their hands. So most know what to look for. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 20:15:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: What do Tree Huggers & Honeybees have in common? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit the answer is: GMO's sierra club letter http://www.sierraclub.org/biotech/whatsnew/whatsnew_2007-03-21.asp some very interesting links in this article on the Sierra Club, GMO's and an attempt to relate to CCD losses. http://reason.com/news/show/119622.html the links appears to make a solid argument that GMO crops are not a risk to bees. the issues related to Imidacloprid though continue to be of concern. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 20:29:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller Subject: Swiss newspaper clipping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mgyr@aol.com=20 To: grumpy7@msn.com=20 Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 6:33 PM Subject: bees Hi Walter, How funny, I wrote to you about bees in my first mail I just = sent to you a few minutes ago, then I switched to the Neue Zurcher = Zeitung which has an English page, and guess what I find? More bee = stories. Here a copy: 14. April 2007, Swissinfo=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Concern mounts over falling bee population Fears among Swiss beekeepers and experts remain high following = reports from other countries that many bees have died or mysteriously = disappeared during the winter. =20 =20 =20 The bee mortality rate in Swiss hives has been above average in = recent years and it is still not known what is killing the insects, = which are important for the ecosystem and the rural economy. In the United States, many beekeepers have reported that they = opened their hives after the winter to find the colonies were either = completely empty or that only the queen bee and a few workers were left. The extent of the deaths ? 60:70 per cent of the swarm ? has = alarmed beekeepers all over the world.=20 Other countries, such as Spain, Germany and Britain, have also = confirmed higher than average bee mortality rates, although not as high = as in the US. The problem also affects Switzerland. "A death rate of ten per cent is normal," Jean:Daniel Charri=E8re, = a scientist at the Agroscope Liebefeld:Posieux agricultural research = station, told swissinfo. "But for about five to six years now this percentage has been = higher. For example, in 2003 or 2006 it went up to 25 per cent," he = added. Charri=E8re said that, although the situation this spring seemed = to be better, the general decline in the bee population was still = worrying and could cause a change in the ecosystem. Bees play a very important role in the natural world. Many plants = and vegetables, such peppers, pumpkins, rape and sunflowers, depend on = the insects for their pollination. "In the cases where the loss in bees' habitat is not compensated = by repopulation by beekeepers, repercussions on productivity in various = agricultural sectors cannot be excluded," said Theo Nicollerat, = president of the Ticino Beekeepers' Association. Cause unknown The exact cause of the high mortality rate is still not known. "We think that the causes are pathological above all," said = Charri=E8re. "Many organisms can weaken bees, the question is which = ones." One candidate is the Varroa destroyer, a bee parasite that arrived = in Europe from Asia in the 1980s. However, Charri=E8re says that, although it has not yet been = eradicated, the pest is under control in Switzerland ? so it cannot be = the sole reason. Other theories include viruses but these are very difficult to = diagnose. Bacteria, fungus, moths, lice and birds are also under = consideration. Another foe is man ? not only has he modified the insects' genes = making them more susceptible to illnesses, he has also "domesticated" = the insects, making them reliant on him. "Bees, at least those in the northern Alps, cannot survive without = beekeepers," explained Charri=E8re Fewer beekeepers Beekeeping is, however, declining in popularity. "Most of the 19,000 beekeepers in Switzerland do it as a hobby. If = we keep losing bees for the next few years they could become discouraged = and drop everything," added Charri=E8re. Nicollerat says part of the problem is that it is still uncertain = whether the sector will receive any state help. "Compared with our European neighbours, where beekeepers receive = direct aid for buying materials or bee colonies for repopulation, we are = still light years away," he said. The government supports research and training in the bee sector. = It finances the research centre at Liebefeld:Posieux to the tune of = around SFr900,000 ($738,000) a year and reserves SFr100,000:150,000 per = year for information campaigns. Many cantons also contribute = financially. But all is not lost. In mid:March the Swiss Parliament accepted a = motion calling for more support for beekeeping in Switzerland, but it is = still not yet clear how the measures will be carried out. swissinfo, based on an Italian article by Anna Passera =20 =20 = nach = oben=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- See what's free at = AOL.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************