From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:53:56 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8BDB48781 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFhrpa016524 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:17 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0704D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 265127 Lines: 6214 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 04:59:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit An article about Imidacloprid and oranges in FL. http://www.palmbeachpost.com/business/content/business/epaper/2007/04/22/ a1f_bees_0422.html also this quote from the article: "And on Monday, bee experts and entomologists from all over the country are to meet for a two-day discussion of the disorder at the headquarters of the Agricultural Research Service in Beltsville, Md" ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:17:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Name Dropping (again) In-Reply-To: <7a790de80704211837m56a1dcc7l692e8865b2b08799@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There probably is truth on both sides of this hissy fit. Academia and science are fairly intolerant toward views out of their mainstream. They are closed societies with quite a bit of peer pressure to conform. That is not how it is supposed to be, but we are human, not automatons. Individuals do have opinions that are out of that mainstream and voice them privately. However, when asked directly and be put on record, they demure, since they know exactly what will happen. It can be difficult separating the two, opinion and "established fact", since both may coincide or both may differ. Plus, any good scientist knows that opinion, although it may be true, must be backed up with scientific proof. Even if fact and opinion match, most would not want to be quoted on an on line forum such as the BeeL. Just look at how many posts on this list are misread. It is difficult to capture nuance or differentiate irony from plain-spoken in our "occasional" less than well thought out posts. I have seen all of this on many occasions and sympathize with those who would not want to be quoted and be on the record whether the quote is accurate or not. Not worth the hassle. For those that do, I applaud your courage. Bill Truesdell (who hears a knock on the door- the thought police again!) Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 05:03:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Roses as bee forage In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Querry: On another bee discussion list the question has come up as to whether or not roses are a source of nectar and/or pollen. Looked in the archives and didn't see any reference to such. What is your opinion or experience in this? Mike in LA --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:59:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: A little misinformation goes a long way MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Did you know? "When it collapses and disappears without a trace, a lost colony leaves only a warning. That way, even robber bees stay away. Also, without bees for pollination, we will starve." "A lot of beekeepers just throw up their hands. But if everybody does that, the problem won't get solved. And we won't have food." from the Greensboro News-Record http://www.news-record.com/ [ A little misinformation goes a long way ] ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 08:27:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Midnight Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom & All, I had thought you would have had an answer by now Tom. I guess the old dinosaur of beekeeping ( closing in on fifty years among the bees and still a young man) will have to answer. I was in Florida when the project started and used many of both Starline & Midnight queens. I have pressed Dr. Larry Conner on several occasions for the *exact*lines used to create the Midnight and Starline. Each time I took notes. I think I have got close to the formula now. The method of a four way closed system I have down its the original combination of races which are missing. Trial & error would provide a close second but with the original Midnight program information to compare with the project would be easier. I am not considering a project to recreate those lines at this time but the thought has crossed my mind. I think if you asked Dr. Conner ( please ask Larry ) he would say Bob Harrison has always tried to find out about the secrets behind the project. Dr. Conner signed a non-disclosure agreement concerning the Midnight but I believe the agreement has run out yet he still keeps the secrets. I am under a signed non-disclosure agreement with Purvis Brother Apiaries I a retired USDA_ARS researcher (7 years of which 3 are passed I believe) but really was never told very much about which lines they used. I do know several. The Midnight bee is based on hybrid vigor. Hybrid vigor is amazing to see.Most researchers and bee breeding books rate hybrid vigor at a 30% increase in production. A huge increase in productivity. The only breeding program I am aware of today which uses hybrid vigor is the Purvis Brothers breeding program. After Dadant dropped the Midnight & Starline program a few breeders kept offering queens but after awhile without the Instrumental insemination queens from Dadant the program died off. Dann Purvis could easily run a midnight program as the original program was a four way closed system and the Purvis Gold line is based on a six way closed system ( a step up). >Anyone know who sells Midnight's these days? If anyone. I don't and would be leery of a breeder saying he can provide the same bee as the "Midnight" ( brand name for the Dadant hybrid vigor bee). My own comments on the Midnight are : A very prolific bee (very similar to Italian) but able to shut down in dearth ( similar to Carniolan). A gentle bee ( similar to Caucasian which was used in creating the Midnight) but a very nasty bee when superceded ( not always but enough to get your attention.) I also thought both the Midnight and Starline were worth the higher price ( easily) and was always surprised the price was not double production queens instead of only a few dollars higher. I got the best Midnight's from Howard Weaver in Texas. I believe the queens when placed on a quarter all legs would touch the edge. The legs also had a red tint. She was so large she was easy to spot on the comb. The defined *circle* was easy to spot as she moved across comb. The Midnight's drew white comb and produced beautiful comb honey. I found the queens had strong queen pheromones and the hive would quickly roar (increase noise) when she was removed from the hive for several minutes. In later years I found the Midnight's did not perform as they did when Dr.Conner ran the program so I started using other breeders queens. The Midnight program queens in the late years lacked the hybrid vigor of the earlier years and I heard from my sources that the program was having problems keeping the lines used in the 4 way breeding program pure. I used the lines until Howard Weaver stopped providing queens. Many on the list have heard of Roy & Binford Weaver but not Howard. Of the three I liked the queens and service of Howard best although I was always satisfied with the other Weavers queens I tried. I have always tried different queen producers queens. I still do! Howard and I spent hours on the phone and although I was only starting out I appreciated beekeepers of Howard's position taking the time to share knowledge. Perhaps other beekeepers which used and remember the Midnight's & Starlines will comment? BEE_L was started I believe after the program ended so would be a valuable addition to the archives. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:34:22 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: D McKinney Subject: TM Testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A recent post by Bill Truesdell stated: > VM gets the blame even >though it might have been TM (or a combination of the two). After the >failure, only Varroa will be present, so there is no problem blaming it. >TM disappears with the bees. > New Brunswick beekeepers have experienced large losses and TM could be a contributing factor. Can TM be easily detected in the dead bees found in the hive with the proper lab equipment? Dave McKinney Maugerville NB ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 11:42:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot McPherson Organization: McPherson Family Farms Subject: Re: A little misinformation goes a long way In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, I realize that there is a lot misinformation out there, but the subject here is less misinformation that you might think. There are already people starving now, while you and I might live abundantly. However if the agricultural beekeeping sector disappears for whatever reason or becomes much less effective because of a significant decrease in managed bees in agriculture, hunger will in fact increase. It might not make you or I starve, but the cost of food has a good chance of becoming more expensive and being available to less people than it is now. Although the statements you recorded here are technically inaccurate and don't hit the bullseye, they still hit the target. Scot McPherson McPherson Family Farms Davenport, IA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:49:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Roses as bee forage In-Reply-To: <302987.99306.qm@web53401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:03 AM 4/22/2007, you wrote: >On another bee discussion list the question has come up as to whether or not roses are a source of nectar and/or pollen. Looked in the archives and didn't see any reference to such. What is your opinion or experience in this? I have frequently seen them foraging on wild roses. These have very simple flowers with few petals. Only once have I ever seen them foraging on cultured roses with their complex layers of many petals. This occurred very late in the season when there was virtually nothing else blooming. It looked like they had a great deal of trouble crawling in between petals to try and gather any nectar (assuming they produce any). -Tim ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:13:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: TM Testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It depends on how long ago the bees died. Relatively freshly killed bees can be diagnosed for TM in the field with basic (X10 magnification) magnifying glass. A slanting cork, twin needles and a fine tweezers are the other equipment required. After a while autolysis changes the colour of the body tissue to black fluid and the mites cannot be seen Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "D McKinney" > Can TM be easily detected in the dead bees found in the hive with the > proper lab equipment? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:09:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Wild honeybees declared public nuisance in Arizona MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, Picking figures from a table in the back of Bailey's lecture. From all localities in the county of Hertfordshire (UK) over a 5 year period there were an average of 5.1 colonies per site and 6.1% of them were infested with A.woodi. During the same period the 18 apiaries operated by the Rothamstead Horticultural Research Station having an average of 14 colonies per site had 29% of them infested. In the county of Oxfordshire a few years later the overall density was 4.8 hives per site and 5.4% were infested whereas in 1 commercial apiaries averaging 29 hives per site there was 40% infestation. This was some years ago and I have no idea what size foundation was being used then. He doesn't mention propolis and I doubt if its antibiotic and anti viral properties were recognised then and people were trying to select for bees that gathered less propolis. I think some still are, despite its value as a bye product of the hive. Chris ChrisIn a message dated 20/04/2007 11:16:59 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: Chris: Some how I am not seeing this as written about in the bees I keep that are smaller. But then they have more access to varied propolis/resins from more varied floral sources,also that is critical to broodnest sterilization and injested by the bees themsleves. So am I wrong in assuming that the bees looked at by Bailey were on enlarged combs FWIW being maintained? What were the parameters of the bees looked at for living/maintenance? Ferals, or domesticated and then what type? Dee A. Lusby ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:17:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Virus research (was Wild honeybees declared MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 20/04/2007 11:19:37 GMT Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: Maybe Chris will provide the date Bailey said the above? I was quoting from the Gooding Memorial Lecture delivered by Bailey to the Central Association of Beekeepers in May 1984 and entitled 'The effect of the number of honey bee colonies on their honey yields and diseases'. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 17:21:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Starlines & Midnites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Larry Connor, Ph.D, wrote: For those of you who care but don't know, my personal background includes the leadership of a bee breeding program in Florida for Dadant and Sons and York Bee Company. Called Genetic Systems we mass produced instrumentally inseminated queen bees for production colonies. It was a noble effort, but we closed the business in 1980 because we proved we could not compete with mother nature. The genetic stock went to Hybrid Bees, and included the Starline and Midnite programs. from Bee-L Archives * * * Malcolm T. Sanford wrote: The Illinois breeding program that produced the Starline and Midnight varieties [used] hybrid lines originally developed under the guidance of Bud Cale and Dadant & Sons. Over the years, the breeding effort changed direction and focus The Starline and Midnight hybrids were not designed to be self-regenerating; the concept was for beekeepers to continually requeen with hybrids produced by the program. Over the years, this had varied success. from January 1995 issue of APIS * * * BP Oldroyd and RD Goodman wrote: Cale and Gowen (1956) mated hybrid and inbred queens [which] led to the development of the highly successful 'Starline' and 'Midnight' hybrid bee breeding programmes in the United States. See: Witherell, P. "A story of success - The Starline and Midnight hybrid bee breeding programs" Am. Bee J. 116, 73-5. (1976). In this study the performance of inbred honeybee queens was compared with that of their hybrids for brood area, colony weight gain and longevity, with a view to quantifying the commercial value of hybrid queens. The brood area and weight gain of colonies headed by hybrid queens were compared with those headed by their inbred parentals. Although the colonies headed by hybrid queens had increased brood production, this did not lead to increased honey production. from "Inbreeding and heterosis in queen bees in relation to brood area and honey production" * * * Dr. Roger Morse also told me that he thought the Starlines were heavy brood producers but that this didn't seem to translate into more honey production. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:19:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chrissy Shaw Subject: Re: Roses as bee forage In-Reply-To: <302987.99306.qm@web53401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last summer i, for the first time, noticed my bees working the native wild rose here for pollen. I observed the bees as they worked and instead of attemping to get nectar, the bees would rub through the pollen and on to the next flower. Since i never noticed this before and am new to this region with this sub of roses, i assume that it depends upon variety. Chrissy Shaw A fraction of a degree in error of movement compounds per-unit in spacetime and all true courses are determined by degree of error and its correction. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:27:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anita Gregory Subject: Re: TM Testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone know what low ambiant temperature threshold Dr.Rodriguez FGMO/ thymol fogging method works for controlling varroa mites. Also, has anyone tried this method inside wintering barns ? Paul Gregory Manitoba -----Original Message----- From: D McKinney [mailto:davmc@NBNET.NB.CA] Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 11:34 AM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: [BEE-L] TM Testing A recent post by Bill Truesdell stated: > VM gets the blame even >though it might have been TM (or a combination of the two). After the >failure, only Varroa will be present, so there is no problem blaming it. >TM disappears with the bees. > New Brunswick beekeepers have experienced large losses and TM could be a contributing factor. Can TM be easily detected in the dead bees found in the hive with the proper lab equipment? Dave McKinney Maugerville NB ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 21:46:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Roses as bee forage In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Chrissy Shaw wrote: > Last summer i, for the first time, noticed my bees working the native wild rose here for pollen. I have always wondered if honey bees get much from the wild roses around here (NY state). I believe they gather orangey red pollen from them. However, Rosa multiflora is not native and is considered an invasive pest by many. Funny how many invasives are favorites of beekeepers! Even black locust is listed as a pest! Invasives listed by NJ Department of Environmental Protection include Alliaria petiolata (garlic mustard) Berberis thunbergii (Japanese barberry) Centaurea biebersteinii (spotted knapweed) Cirsium arvense (Canadian thistle) Dipsacus fullonum (wild teasel) Elaeagnus umbellata (autumn olive) Lespedeza cuneata (Chinese bush-clover) Lonicera japonica (Japanese honeysuckle) Lythrum salicaria (purple loosestrife) Melilotus officinalis (yellow sweetclover) Polygonum cuspidatum (Japanese knotweed) Polygonum perfoliatum (mile-a-minute) Robinia pseudoacacia (black locust) Rosa multiflora (multiflora rose) pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 21:53:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Philip_Allen?= Subject: Catching wild bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Bee-l-ers I've been subscribed for a while and have finally decided to post a question(actually three). I had 2 colonies but they died out over the winter not enough stores in one and to much wind for the other.The one hive is still full of honey and the wild bees have found it and there is a lot of activity (robbing) there. Here is my question.Could I set up a trap hive and catch these robbers ,requeen them, and start a new colony? Is this an unethical way of increasing my colony numbers since I would be taking the foragers from other colonies? Also, since the wild bees have found this hive would it be a good idea to put a bait hive in its place in case of swarming activity? I'm really interested to hear your opinions. Thanks, Philip ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:52:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Starlines & Midnites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, Thanks Peter for the information! I would like to ad a few comments based on the years I used those queens. >The Starline and Midnight hybrids were not designed to be >self-regenerating; the concept was for beekeepers to continually requeen with hybrids produced by the program. I really do not yet understand why beekeepers could not grasp the hybrid concept but many did not. They thought they could buy one bunch of hybrid queens and raise ( and in some cases sell as Midnight or Starline ) queens and they would perform as the real hybrids did. Some actually thought both were races of bees! When used as intended both lines worked for me and the extra box of honey more than paid for the few extra dollars the queen sold for. I marked all my hybrids and tried to get two years out of the queens but then culled. Marking was important because the hybrid vigor could be lost with supercedure. Hybrid vigor is real! Has been documented many times. For those with access to the book "Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding" by Laidlaw & Page you can get an explanation of "hybrid Vigor" ( also called heterosis)on page 162-164. quote from pg. 162 " It has long been KNOWN that when you cross parents from different INBRED lines or from DIFFERENT races or STRAINS that the OFFSPRING can have characteristics that are SUPERIOR to both parents. This phenomenon is called HYBRID VIGOR. > colonies headed by hybrid queens had increased brood production, this did not lead to increased honey production. I saw increased honey production but honey production depends on many outside influences. Most queen breeders rate hybrid vigor at about a 30% increase in productivity. or maybe an extra super of honey. I think the hybrid vigor was better seen in the Midnight's rather than the Starlines. I have never been a big fan of the dark races in those days but I liked the Midnight's and they in most cases would out produce *production* Italians. Today I run many hives of NWC which I like. Sue Cobey has done an excellent job with those bees. >Dr. Roger Morse also told me that he thought the Starlines were heavy brood producers but that this didn't seem to translate into more honey production. I think Dr. Morse might have a point with the Carniolans as many times production Italians in those days matched the Starlines BUT when you installed a 100 Starlines they all were prolific and produced big crops of honey.( at least the ones I used did) What did Roger say about the Midnight's? Today in a 100 regular Italian production queens you *might* get half prolific and heavy honey producers, 30 average, 10 dinks needing the hive tool, 4-5 drone layers and 5 supercedures in the first few weeks. Only warranty is they arrive alive. Also if dead then the claim needs to be filed on the carrier. The Starlines ( when raised correctly) were an excellent tool for the profit minded beekeeper. I got the best Starlines & Midnight's when Dr. Conner ran the program. Good queens do not cost but instead pay. Excellent genetics pay. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:01:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Starlines & Midnites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, In the previous post I said: "I think Dr. Morse might have a point with the Carniolans as many times production Italians in those days matched the Starlines should have said: "I think Dr. Morse might have a point with the Starlines as many times production Italians in those days matched the Starlines" Sorry for the typo! I have been putting in long hours trying to get on top of things as I have got a surgery this week and will be on light duty for a month. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 00:17:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: fogging in barn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit re: FGMO/ thymol fogging method , has anyone tried this method inside wintering barns ? Good way to burn down a barn! Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:37:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Roses as bee forage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They certainly work the wild 'dog' roses here in the UK - these have single flowers - and solitary bees also work them. We are less likely to see bees on the cultivated roses, probably because they cannot get to the centre of the flower until it has opened fully (by which time many gardeners will have removed it). Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:44:30 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Roses as bee forage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>On another bee discussion list the question has come up as to whether or not roses are a source of nectar and/or pollen. Most sources mention that only 'simple' roses, such as rosa rugosa, are sometimes used and only for pollen. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:30:55 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Catching wild bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Could I set up a trap hive and catch these robbers ,requeen them, and start a new colony? What kind of trap did you have in mind? You'd need a screened funnel set-up to let the robbers in but prevent them from coming out. How many would you realistically trap? Foraging involves feedback. With no returning foragers, the flow of new recruits would quickly dwindle unless you release at least some robbers to take the message back to the parent colonies. You would then need to move the robbers to a distant location so they would not go back to their original colonies. In my opinion, this is not worthwhile. >>Is this an unethical way of increasing my colony numbers since I would be taking the foragers from other colonies? I think you know the answer by asking this question. :) I would not be happy if my hives were within a couple of miles of your location... If you are in the middle of nowhere with no other beekeepers in the area, the robbers could be from feral colonies. I'd suggest bee-lining back to the feral colonies. Once located, you could then remove and hive the ferals quite ethically. >>Also, since the wild bees have found this hive would it be a good idea to put a bait hive in its place in case of swarming activity? Absolutely. A typical bait hive consists of a single deep with minimum one drawn-out frame up in a tree. The entrance should be facing south or south-east. They say a queen lure makes a difference in attracting swarms. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:37:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Midnight Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Most researchers and bee breeding books rate hybrid vigor at a 30% increase in production. Bob, in your experience, is it sufficient to cross between two distinct populations of bees within the same race or do you have to have genes from different races to see the marked hybrid vigor increase? If you have to have different races how do you go about stipulating which combinations of races will give the greatest effect? Is it trial and error? Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:46:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Can someone help rehive? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I've never done it before, and I have a feral hive in a tree than needs to be moved to a hive. Unfortunately, I am in NY on the other side from Canandaigua. Can you describe the feral hive in more detail: - approx. size of entrance hole - approx. tree diameter at the entrance - approx. entrance height from the ground - type of tree I assume the tree is to be unharmed in the hive removal? Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:47:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Clear DayFor those of you who care but don't know, my personal = background includes the leadership of a bee breeding program in Florida for Dadant and Sons and York Bee Company. Called Genetic Systems we mass produced instrumentally inseminated queen bees for production colonies. It was a noble effort, = but we closed the business in 1980 because we proved we could not compete with mother nature. The genetic stock went to Hybrid Bees, and included the Starline and Midnite programs. from Bee-L Archives >From what I hear about drones being "dry", artificial insemination may = be the way to get GOOD=20 queens. A person told me he does do this for breeder queens and has = found a large number of drones that did not have any seamen. I know this = will send the price higher, but I think it will prove worthwhile. Lionel Evans ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:48:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: TM Testing In-Reply-To: <462B8E8E.1020408@nbnet.nb.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit D McKinney wrote: > New Brunswick beekeepers have experienced large losses and TM could be > a contributing factor. > Can TM be easily detected in the dead bees found in the hive with > the proper lab equipment? If you can sample before they all leave, you will see it, but after the colony dies, the only bees left will be mostly TM free. I asked the same question and that was the response. If there are still live bees, then you will probably see it. The level of "infection" will be low, but that is because all the other infected bees left. The absolute top expert on TM is right there in Canada, Medhat Nasr, who is also one of the most approachable scientists I know. I suggest you contact him. You will need a scope to see the mites and there is a procedure to make that easier so you can get a good assessment. I did it at the EAS short course. TM inspection requires more effort than Varroa so most do not even bother to check for it any more. Hence, we get the "after", which looks like CCD, and never know if TM were present for the "before". BTW, I have been told that as little as 10-15% TM detected prior to winter is more than enough to kill the colony. Remember, it is not the TM that does it but the ever present virus in the colony. TM can kill all by itself, but not the entire colony. Often, you will just get dysentery covered frames and a handful of lethargic, pitiful bees that made it through the winter. They do recover but you are only propagating TM susceptible bees which will keep the susceptibility alive. BTDT as a new beekeeper. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:50:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Coming To Gormanston this year ??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all For those of you that have already decided to make the trip to the best bee gathering on earth, I have just placed all the lecture timings and workshop details on this link... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/gormprog2007.html For those that are as yet undecided, a quick look at the wealth of useful items in the program may change your mind, the cost is very low and the beekeepers and their families all have a marvellous time, you can still book using... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/gormreservation2007.html I personally cannot wait for the intervening three months to elapse, because I know I am going to enjoy myself ! -- Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:10:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe Subject: swarming behavior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List, On Friday at about 6 PM I hived a package of bees with a marked queen. On Sunday around 11 PM all was peaceful when all of a sudden I looked = and there were about 2.3 gazillion bees flying over the hive and another = 1.9 gazillion on the front face of the deep. I watched and thought to = myself "it looks like there getting ready to swarm". When next I looked, = being otherwise distracted, the number had halved and in another 5 = minutes all was peaceful again.=20 My question is, how can a new hive swarm so quickly, if that is indeed = what happened? How could there be time between late Friday and mid-day = Sunday to raise a new qaueen to leave behind. Or what explanation could = there be from this behavior? It's the first time anything like this ever = happened to me. And what should I do now? Yours, John Howe ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:44:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Wayne Young Subject: Unbred Queen MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Hi all, I just found what appears to be a new queen stuck in some thick 2 to 1 sugar water that I left on my hive stand,which is a large lobster crate.At this point I haven`t seen any drones,so I have to assume that it hasn`t bred yet. My question is should I let it go free wondering if it might kill the old queen,or just let it die in the queen cage that I put it in? The queen in the hive I think is 3 years old,but still seems to be doing a good job. I would think that if the bees were going to produce a queen,that they would also produce some drones.This is all a little early for this to happen being on the coast of Maine the weather hasn`t been all that warm yet. This is a new one for me,so I really can`t quite figure it out. Thanks for any ideas. Wayne Young ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:03:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Current info on CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Some new files have been added at http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/ColonyCollapseDisorder.html What has been eliminated as a potential cause? Honey bee tracheal mites Feeding - HFCS, protein supplement Chemical use for mite and disease control Source of bees Source of queens -- pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:07:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: TM Testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/04/2007 18:17:28 GMT Standard Time, bhfarms@SUSCOM-MAINE.NET writes: BTW, I have been told that as little as 10-15% TM detected prior to winter is more than enough to kill the colony. "Field observations and experiments at Rothamsted from 1951 to 1960 inclusive (Bailey 1958;1961) showed that, contrary to the received opinion, A.woodi, [tracheal mite], whether in natural or experimental infestations, does not cause any outward sign of disease. It is detectable only by dissection and microscopical examination of individual bees. Moreover, although it shortens the life of an infested bee, it does so only by a barely detectable amount, an observation independantly confirmed in N.America (Royce and Rossignol 1990). Only the relatively few colonies that have more than 30% of their bees infested are more likely to die than uninfested colonies - because of the slightly shortened lives of infested bees - and then only in late winter or early spring......" Leslie Bailey 2002 , based on a lecture to the Central Association of Beekeepers on 14th October 2000. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:14:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: swarming behavior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/04/2007 18:19:20 GMT Standard Time, john.howe@EARTHLINK.NET writes: On Sunday around 11 PM all was peaceful when all of a sudden I looked and there were about 2.3 gazillion bees flying over the hive and another 1.9 gazillion on the front face of the deep. I watched and thought to myself "it looks like there getting ready to swarm". Why were you watching them so late at night? Normally they would crawl rather than fly at night; there isn't much moonshine at the moment. Had you disturbed the hive or shone a bright light at it? Did they go back in or leave? A check for eggs on Thursday morning will tell you whether the queen is still there. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:17:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Roses as bee forage In-Reply-To: <302987.99306.qm@web53401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Stoops wrote: > On another bee discussion list the question has come up as to whether > or not roses are a source of nectar and/or pollen. Looked in the > archives and didn't see any reference to such. What is your opinion > or experience in this? Hi Mike- Roses belong to a large family (rosaceae) which includes many varieties that are well known pollen and nectar producers such as strawberry, raspberry, apple, plum, cherry, etc. The family is huge. I'm certain that bees collect pollen and in some cases nectar as well from many of your wild and garden-variety roses. Some of the hybrids may not be that attractive to bees because of the densely packed petals. Here, my 3 of my bees are collecting pollen from a Rosa Rugosa flower. The pollen is sort of grayish colored: http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/Bees_On_Flowers/target66.html In this shot, the bee is burrowing down to the base of the stamens. I saw many bees doing this and I'm certain it's collecting nectar: http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/Bees_On_Flowers/target64.html George- --------------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:22:27 -0400 Reply-To: Stacy L Brockett Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stacy L Brockett Subject: Re: Can someone help rehive? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those that asked about the hive, this is the link to a site I set up with photos of the hive and a brief history from last fall. http://www.smthreepines.com/hive.html Stacy L. Brockett SM3Pines Farm - Canandaigua, NY http://www.smthreepines.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:41:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: TM Testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chris & All, I have great respect for Bailey but when TM entered the U.S. in the 80's half the commercial hives were lost. partly because Bailey had said the below. > (Bailey 1958;1961) showed that, contrary to the received opinion, A.woodi, [tracheal mite], whether in natural or experimental infestations, does not cause any outward sign of disease. >It is detectable only by dissection and microscopical examination of individual bees. A field test as suggested by Ruary gives a good indication of TM infestation. >Moreover, although it shortens the life of an infested bee, it does so only by a barely detectable amount, an observation independently confirmed in N.America (Royce and Rossignol 1990). In Europe you mostly run dark races which had been exposed to TM. In the U.S. we mostly run Italian bees which in the 80's had NEVER seen a TM. My Italian bees have always had problems dealing with TM. Treatment once a year costs around fifty cents plus labor. Left untreated for a couple years they start crashing in winter. I would rather use my high production Italian bees and treat than use so called TM resistant strains I have tried. Some are TM tolerant and some from the same breeder are not. A crap shoot! >Only the relatively few colonies that have more than 30% of their bees infested are more likely to die than uninfested colonies - because of the slightly shortened lives of infested bees - and then only in late winter or early Maybe in England but we test and spend big bucks for menthol to control TM in many large operations. We consider over 10% very serious but again all beekeeping is local. If the all the above Bailey said was true in the U.S. would we have lost over a million commercial hives to TM in the 80's when TM arrived? Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:07:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: TM Testing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris Slade writes: It is detectable only by dissection and microscopical examination of individual bees. Reply: Yes this is very much true but other signs in front of hives can be looked for concerning trachael mites, and simple field dissections can also be done, with hand held 10X magnifiers also to see if the dead bees had trachael mites by common everyday beekeepers. Further I am sure in the archives here this information for beekeepers for doing can be pulled up, as it has been talked about in the past. Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:25:02 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: TM Testing In-Reply-To: <000e01c78601$25157140$1abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <000e01c78601$25157140$1abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >In Europe you mostly run dark races which had been exposed to TM. Acarine mites (TM to you) are endemic at least in the UK. They have not been a major problem here in many many years. This has caused people to suggest the mites are of less vigour or have died out or whatever, which is also untrue. See below. > In the >U.S. we mostly run Italian bees which in the 80's had NEVER seen a TM. My >Italian bees have always had problems dealing with TM. Treatment once a >year costs around fifty cents plus labor. Left untreated for a couple years >they start crashing in winter. Well, even in Italian stock you find some tolerant (prefer that term to resistant) stock in the US. Back in the 1980's I used to buy a lot of queens (a lot in UK terms anyway, a tiny amount in your terms) from various breeders and races. Italians as you say were very liable to mite problems, and did not give much honey in our climate anyway. My personal favourite at the time was the Midnite (I got them from York's), which worked well here and gave good harvests. However, like all the US stock I tried up until I met the NWC, they were very liable to go fine for a season, and then over the next couple they died out in large numbers showing all the classic external symptoms which pointed the finger at these mites. The mites were still here of course, and as soon as susceptible stock appeared they showed their hand. However Bob, one of your current favourite suspects is viruses, and not too long ago this subject was discussed, and there was some valuable input from Norman Carreck, which finger viruses as actually the main cause of perceived TM symptoms, and that no real link was found between these symptoms and the mites. He stopped short of calling it coincidental but seemed to imply so, and that somehow the conditions that favoured the mite also favoured the viruses, and that they had been unable to show a direct mite related vector of spread. My personal opinion is that something must have been being missed somewhere.........it seems a very big co-incidence..........and the conditions for the virus in the US MUST have existed at times in the past when TM were not there, so why the huge die off when the mites arrived if mites are not a vector of spread.? >>Only the relatively few colonies that have more than 30% of their bees >infested are more likely to die than uninfested colonies - because of the >slightly shortened lives of infested bees - and then only in late winter or >early > >If the all the above Bailey said was true in the U.S. would we have lost >over a million commercial hives to TM in the 80's when TM arrived? > I did not know Bailey. However, in the UK we have a bit of a problem with some thinking our little island state has the answer to everyone else's problems and that 'foreign' research is somehow inferior. (We tend to extrapolate our local experiences into areas where it is actually invalid, and there is often a failure to appreciate the necessary cultural differences between real sharp end commercial honey producers and their ways of operating, and UK methods, almost all of which (some of mines included) are amateur derived.) Bailey's statement and your losses are not actually mutually exclusive, especially if you accept his statement being in a UK context and yours being in a US one. 'All beekeeping is local' (in terms of both location and timing) raises its head again. I suspect his quoted statement to be incomplete and I am sure this would have been clear from a full transcript. Talk was about UK experiences at the time. UK experience in the 1920's would have told you a very different story, and as regards the timeline of exposure that is where you were in the 1980's. I still remember my father showing me TM related symptoms as a boy back in the 1960's, when we still had occasional upwellings of it, and the relict susceptible stock was still causing vulnerability. Nowadays in native stock I never see symptomatic TM problems, and know what stock from other parts is likely to show similar qualities. ( Not naming names on list.) CCD related to TM? Don't know. However, the last really serious event of that nature in my local area, (a few minor ones have happened since) was spring 1986. I got off lightly here, although it might have been better if I had not. One neighbour lost 494 out 501 that year. Mostly the same symptoms...........very few bees and a queen remaining.....sometimes as few as 20 adult bees...a patch of brood hopelessly large for the bees to care for...........no mites (varroa was not present at the time). Cause? Summer 1985 was the cause. Nothing for the bees to get in terms of natural supplies from the start of July onwards. Weather truly awful (can also be caused by drought as one of the lesser events in the 90's showed) and not enough nutrients gathered. Not enough young bees raised. Old bees dying off, but still just enough of them to keep carrying away the dead, so you ended with largely clean hives with plenty of stores, usually pollen too as these old bees burned out and died once the weather opened up for them, so they gathered stuff but had very short lives remaining. Yes it started in autumn when very poor colony size and condition was already apparent. Rapid dwindling happened up to New year in many cases, and later many collapsed away to next to nothing as soon as spring 86 hit. No robbing? Yes it was the same. Why? There were not enough strong colonies remaining to do the robbing, and all the dead outs were a veritable smorgasbord to them. Too much available and not enough bees to exploit it. Why did I think I might have been better taking the hit like the others? Too many were so drastically weakened that it took most of 1986 to get them up to any level of bee power at all. Remember many were down to a single seam of bees, often even that partial, and we got them through 1986 in the hope of getting them through the winter................only to take a further heavy loss that winter too as they really had not built up enough to get through properly. Would have been better to clear the decks of these dinks and make fresh splits. Same as CCD? I don't pretend to know, but for sure, once we were over the hump into summer 1987 (when I still had a stock of stores filled dead outs sealed up in my yard) colonies established in these self same boxes prospered as normal and there was never any evidence of bees avoiding them. BTW, to anyone who wants to ask 'Why did you not feed them?'...........the hives were on our heather all through the dearth period. Heather yields like crazy in most conditions with adequate rainfall, with plenty of nectar and plenty of pollen. We had plentiful flowering, and all the bees were on a flowering crop.............all it needed to put things right was a week of reasonable weather....a lot less time than it would have taken to feed them all (closed hive top feeders here so you dont feed your neighbour too, which they would be happy to accept and not reciprocate!)......and it just seemed impossible that we would not get it. We didn't, and by the end of August the die was cast for the winter ahead. This year? CCD/ Marie Celeste syndrome? None. Best wintering in living memory. Many apiaries with zero losses. Overall maybe 3%..............and almost all of those are due to dud queens. -- Murray McGregor ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 22:34:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: TM Testing In-Reply-To: <000e01c78601$25157140$1abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison writes: My Italian bees have always had problems dealing with TM. Treatment once a year costs around fifty cents plus labor. Left untreated for a couple years they start crashing in winter. I would rather use my high production Italian bees and treat than use so called TM resistant strains I have tried. Reply: Geeh, sorry to hear you are still having problems with TM after all these years. Back in the 1980s, now a good 20 plus years ago, TM was the first mite we got to control easily by our first regression down in size to 5.0mm - 5.1mm sizing, besides eliminating most of our chalk brood. With our second regression down in size to 4.9mm top tolerance we gained control of varroa and the accompanying foul diseases. Hear you are talking about starting to use Small Cell this year from posts on this site. With luck then, maybe you will start to gain some control to your problems and not have to medicate so much. If you ahve problem drawing the SC foundation out, remember there is HSC now available for instant regression if need be. Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 05:33:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: TM Testing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Only the relatively few colonies that have more than 30% of their bees infested > are more likely to die than uninfested colonies - because of the slightly > shortened lives of infested bees - and then only in late winter or early > spring......" Leslie Bailey 2002 , based on a lecture to the Central Association > of Beekeepers on 14th October 2000. > > The observations that prompted the 10-15% are from what we have seen in Maine, a colder and longer winter than GB or even Stockholm. The bees are together much longer and much tighter. 20% seems to be the point that there will be problems. It is not the mite by itself, it is the virus. VM is another variable added to the mix which helps disease along and is usually in the colony. TM is actually less likely to be there. Most of the problems we have had in Maine this winter are VM related, but TM has been a larger factor than a few years ago. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 05:52:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe Subject: swarming behaviot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >On Sunday around 11 PM all was peaceful........ I meant 1 PM, not 11 PM . Sorry about the typo John Howe ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 04:27:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: TM Testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee & All, I had serious issues with TM when they first arrived mainly because of the research Chris posted of Bailey ( pertaining to the U.K.). We underestimated the impact TM would have in the U.S. (actually did the same when varroa arrived later). I lost whole yards to TM. Now easily controlled with menthol at low cost and not needed every year ( but was done yearly for awhile) Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 06:54:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Current info on CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What has been eliminated as a potential cause? > > Honey bee tracheal mites > Feeding - HFCS, protein supplement > Chemical use for mite and disease control > Source of bees > Source of queens > My understanding is that they have been eliminated since they are not common to those who have reported CCD . The problem then is did any of those on the list cause the problem for any who reported CCD and have those who reported been eliminated from the data base? It does work both ways- not common to all then any who lost bees because of the presence of any one of those is eliminated. Sort of a double elimination. I am sure the CCD group has the following from each of those who reported so they can eliminate some of the CCD reporters: 1. Records of beekeeper mite inspections and the result of those inspections prior to and after CCD. 2. Invoices for feed used and spec sheets on those feeds. 3. Invoices for pesticides used in the control of mites. 4. Records of application of pesticides and the method of application. 5. Independent verification of the losses. 6. Independent tests for pesticide resistance. 7. Independent tests of remaining bees for VM and TM. 8. Independent tests for virus and other disease. 9. Independent tests for mites prior to the loss. The first four are either required by law or are regular business practice so are available, so I am sure the group has seen them. The next four would be done by the group, and there appears to be some data on the website, but not the extent of that data. The last is available in several cases and is critical. At a minimum, if we do not have the first four items on the list from each one who suffered major losses, then all we are relying on is the report of the beekeeper. Without the rest, we are relying on insufficient or bad data which makes for bad science. Again, I do not doubt CCD exists since it has happened before but with a different name. My problem is with the extent of the problem and those who are piggy-backing on it, and the lack of credible information that exists before the problem was reported and even after. Add to that my own and others direct observations of those who report CCD when it is mites. Some of those who reported sincerely believed that it was CCD. But after reminders of the state of their bees prior to their loss and/or follow up inspections, they agreed it was mites. Only a few who had heavy mite loads and were told to treat prior to their loss have stuck with their story and made the news. They will be the ones who are rewarded with relief funds if approved by the Congress. If fund are made available, there will not be one mite or winter kill in the entire US. It will all be CCD. It almost is already. My colony qualifies. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:22:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: TM Testing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As usual, a great post from Murray. His comment on a lack of nectar reminded me that, at least in Maine, for those of us (in all parts of the State) who extract in late July/early August, there was no honey. Then, right after that, nectar came in and there was a significant and much greater than usual fall surplus. So add that to the possible causes for losses in Maine the past year. My guess is similar conditions were present in most of the NE US. I also have read all of the info on viruses not being associated with TM. It is not the virus in TM, it is the virus in the colony. It would seem intuitive that weakened bees will have a weakened immune system which would allow the spread of virus. From there on, it would not need the mite since the virus would spread from bee to bee when in close contact in their winter cluster. Works with most any confined group and the presence of virus. You only need a critical mass of carriers and it becomes an epidemic. Some virus symptoms are easily visible with an infected TM colony that survives the winter. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:58:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: TM Testing In-Reply-To: <000e01c78601$25157140$1abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > In Europe you mostly run dark races which had been exposed to TM. In the > U.S. we mostly run Italian bees which in the 80's had NEVER seen a TM. My > Italian bees have always had problems dealing with TM. Treatment once a > year costs around fifty cents plus labor. Left untreated for a couple years > they start crashing in winter. I would rather use my high production Italian > bees and treat than use so called TM resistant strains I have tried. Isn't this backwards? I read: > Soon after Br. Adam joined Brother Columban, thirty out of the Abbey's forty-six colonies were wiped out by a disease known as Acarine. All of the bees that died were of the native British black bee variety. This bee was renowned for being hardy, but somewhat ill-tempered. The bees that survived the outbreak were all of Italian origin. > In 1919, after Brother Columban retired, Brother Adam was put in charge of the bees, and he set about rebuilding the colonies. His intention was to use cross-breeding to develop a new bee which would be hardy like the black bee, but disease-resistant like the Italian bee, and a good honey producer. http://www.buckfast.org.uk/site.php?use=bees ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:18:27 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Can someone help rehive? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>a site I set up with photos of the hive and a brief history from last fall. http://www.smthreepines.com/hive.html You have a nice, 'easy' situation. I say this because the entrance is low and the tree can be sacrificed. [By the way, the reason for the frequent swarming is the relatively small size of the tree cavity. They quickly run out of room and cast a swarm.] Here is what you can do (long approach): - screen the entire entrace hole in the tree to prevent bees from coming out (old window screen works fine, caulk any side gaps between the bark and the screen) - chain saw 6-12" logs off the top of the tree until you expose the hollow top of the colony; make the cuts reasonably horizontal; screen this opening as well for now - cut a piece of 3/4" plywood (or other wood) the size of the footprint of a deep hive body; in it's center, cut a hole 4-6" in diameter - in a cold evening, unscreen the top hole in the tree and screw the plywood board onto the tree trunk aligning the center holes and making sure one of the widths of the plywood is facing south - place a deep hive body (it should have a south-facing hole for a bee entrance) on top of the plywood - cover the screened bottom hole in the tree trunk with tar paper etc. to block light from shining in Since they are crowded, the bees will soon expand up into the deep hive body. When they run out of room in the tree, the queen will go up into the deep as well. As soon as you seen the queen there, move the deep to a more desired location for a hive. At the same time, cut the tree down, move it to a different location to be robbed out. Once this done, you can cut the tree open and remove the wax combs. This approach may take a couple of months. Here is what I would do (being less patient): - smoke the bees, cut the section with the colony out - with a chain saw, make two, diametrically opposite, lateral cuts and stop just before the chain enter the nest cavity - smoke the bees some more and use steel wedges and a 2-lb hammer to finish splitting the log at the chain saw cuts - remove the combs with the bees You can dispense with the above menthods all together and try to drum the bees out. I've this can work quite well but I no personal experience with this method. Good luck! You have fun project on your hands. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:25:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Current info on CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Am I missing something on the MAAREC site? The new reports dated 4/23/07 seems to implicate Imidacloprid or at least indicates grave concerns by the researchers looking at purported CCD losses. I did not see mentioned anywhere that any possible causes were being eliminated. Perhaps I am not looking far enough? or the way I could read Peter's post is he was suggesting that list of problems has not been mentioned by the researchers as likely causes. Peter can you please clarify your initial post for us? Relative to the 4/23/07 report by Maryann Frazier: I would note that this is the ONLY report so far from the MAAREC group that is calling attention to one possible cause so I think its an important development and hints at what the researchers are focusing their efforts on. Their previous reports outlined the scope of the problem, listed the symptoms and also ruled out Bt corn. The FL article I posted the other day http://www.palmbeachpost.com/business/content/business/epaper/2007/04/22/ a1f_bees_0422.html describes the situation with Imidacloprid and oranges in FL.: "Dave Hackenberg, a beekeeper based in Dade City and Pennsylvania, believes that state regulators are starting to realize something needs to be done. UF researchers and state apiary inspectors plan to meet with Florida regulators within the next few weeks, he said." This quote would indicate to me that in Florida they are starting to take the Imidacloprid link seriously. So based on the little bit we can conclude from Maryann Frazier's report and the FL newspaper article this may be some of the first CCD mitigation efforts to come out of the research related to CCD. To those waiting for a 100% definitive report that X or Y is the cause of CCD, I would suggest that science and interactions with industry does not always work that way. We might instead see cases being built around several suspicious actors like Imidacloprid and/or possibly certian migratory practices and the solutions will lie in getting the AG and Bee industries to change some of their practices that are suspected to be sources of CCD like symptoms. I think if we had an obvious smoking gun that causes CCD symtoms that could be replicated in a lab we would have heard some indications of that by now that work was underway. Given the way the last few months have played out I just don't think that will be the case. I predict this will morph into a "what can we do to improve the overall environment that honeybees are living and working (pollination)". Studies to further link Imidacloprid to bee losses could take years, but given what circumstantial evidence we have now it would seem prudent for government agencies etc to move forward quickly on reigning in the use of Imidacloprid. I think for the public and many beekeepers the notion of delivering insecticides via living plants falls into the category of this does not make sense if we care about our honeybee or wild pollinator population. Forget the definitive proof, it just makes no sense to allow the agriculture and lawn and garden industry to continue using these systemic insecticides. Regardless of what more the science may say having an issue before the public that they can comprehend may be a blessing as many environmental and interest groups will sieze this and run with it and most likley get lots of public support. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:12:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: TM Testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 24/04/2007 02:24:58 GMT Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: If the all the above Bailey said was true in the U.S. would we have lost over a million commercial hives to TM in the 80's when TM arrived? Were the hives lost to TM or with TM? ie was it the TM that killed them or a virus that thrives under the same conditions? Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:13:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: TM Testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 24/04/2007 02:57:13 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: Yes this is very much true but other signs in front of hives can be looked for concerning trachael mites, Dee, What signs are these? Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:14:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: New NYT article on CCD 4/24/07 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is what we have been waiting for ....some insight into the science going on to find answers to CCD http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/24/science/24bees.html? em&ex=1177560000&en=f5ba22e773db984a&ei=5087%0A couple of tidbits "More than a quarter of the country’s 2.4 million bee colonies have been lost — tens of billions of bees, according to an estimate from the Apiary Inspectors of America, a national group that tracks beekeeping" Of course the obvious question is, is half of that loss normal winter loss? Wish we new the context of that statistic. Dr. Cox Foster is quoted extensively in the article "Genetic testing at Columbia University has revealed the presence of multiple micro-organisms in bees from hives or colonies that are in decline, suggesting that something is weakening their immune system. The researchers have found some fungi in the affected bees that are found in humans whose immune systems have been suppressed by the Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome or cancer. “That is extremely unusual,” Dr. Cox-Foster said. A MUST read for anyone following the CCD story. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 23:01:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: TM Testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst quoted from the Buckfast Abbey website: > Soon after Br. Adam joined Brother Columban, thirty out of the Abbey's > forty-six colonies were wiped out by a disease known as Acarine. All of > the bees that > died were of the native British black bee variety. We should remember that although many died, many colonies of native black bees survived - and are still doing very well - something that Brother Adam failed to recognise. I was also interested to note from the website that in 2004 they produced 'over four tons' of honey were produced from 240 colonies. Even if that was four and a half tons, 10080lbs from 240 colonies is only 42 lbs per colony - not much of a recommendation for the Buckfast bee? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:32:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: TM Testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 25/04/2007 00:16:05 GMT Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: 10080lbs from 240 colonies is only 42 lbs per colony - not much of a recommendation for the Buckfast bee? And I gather that their practice is to feed lots of sugar which logically ought to be deducted from the total when calculating productivity. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:42:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: TM Testing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter >> Soon after Br. Adam joined Brother Columban, thirty out of the Abbey's >> forty-six colonies were wiped out by a disease known as Acarine. All >> of the bees that died were of the native British black bee variety. >> This bee was renowned for being hardy, but somewhat ill-tempered. The >> bees that survived the outbreak were all of Italian origin. This was fiercely defended by Bro. Adam, but all the tests that I have conducted found the opposite, to the extent that it can be used as a selection tool. The British bees do get Acarine (TM) but it does not cause any major problem except perhaps to one colony in a few hundred (which is better out of the equation anyway). It may have been that the bees did have acarine, but that the cause of their demise was actually another problem. For some unknown reason Bro. Adam was prejudiced against the British Native bee. Bro. Adam also vehemently stated that the British bee had been wiped out by 'isle of white disease', but we now know this to have been incorrect. His work has been dressed up by some of his followers as some sort of project to produce a super bee, when all he himself actually considered that he did was to produce an ideal bee for the production of heather honey on Dartmoor (which specification the Buckfast bee as it was filled very well). Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:47:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Current info on CCD In-Reply-To: <462DE1D6.5060906@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: >>>My understanding is that they have been eliminated since they are not common to those who have reported CCD.<<<< Bill. The problem is they found everything, everywhere. You are of course correct that they eliminated the mentioned items because none of them were found at all sites. Just how they could effectively eliminate yards killed by over medication for mites, PMS or TM, stymies me. If they ever find a smoking virus, that may do it. As you pointed out in a previous post, TM could look a lot like CCD. By the way, that was the most well-reasoned, cogent explanation of TM (or anything else)as the culprit I've seen. Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:32:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Midnight Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Waldemar & All. Bee breeding is one of the most ( if not the most complicated aspect) of beekeeping. If we had a few days and sheets of paper for me to draw on and several beekeeping books to reference then I think you would see what I am talking about. Even advanced queen producers (those we get production queens from) are reluctant to produce inbred/hybrid bees like the Midnight/Starline program. >is it sufficient to cross between two distinct populations of bees within the same race Kind of a gray area but would work in a situation (in my opinion) which Dann Purvis is working on. Australian Italian bees & U.S. Italian bees. Dann Purvis traveled to Australia and set up a closed population instrumantal insemination II system. He II queens and those queens were shipped into Kansas City last year. We reshipped to Georgia. I believe the U.S. Italian gene pool is is such I do not believe (my opinion) you could use say Italian queens from a California breeder and a Georgia breeder and have luck at seeing true heterosis. > or do you have to have genes from different races to see the marked hybrid vigor increase? Two different races or strains works best in simple terms. using II improves the results Using traits from those races through inbreeding (using II)adds the frosting to the cake. >If you have to have different races how do you go about stipulating which combinations of races will give the greatest effect? "greatest effect"? This is where you need instrumental insemination (II). The simple would be a closed breeding program and several pure races/strains to draw from and use II> The next step complicated would be incorperating inbred lines from different races/strains. Maintaining these lines sounds easy but you can ask Lionel and he will quickly say maintaining the inbred lines is what fell apart in Florida. Is it trial and error? Waldemar you have really learned since you came on BEE_L. You ask the best questions. Trail & error for sure with a bit of luck tossed in. Perhaps one day my friend Dr. Connor will share what he knows about the lines involved when he ran the project Lionel ran. What would I like to know from Larry or Lionel? What inbred *traits* were maintained in what races? In other words a particular trait of say gentleness in the inbred Caucasian be might yield a bee so gentle you could brush the bees off comb without aggression. However the hive might not( for example only )gather honey and need fed to survive. If you follow my drift Waldemar I think you will see each inbred bee added a piece to the Midnight puzzle. To Lionel: I think the gentleness of the Midnight came from the Caucasian bee. Come on Lionel throw us a bone? Am I right or way off? Sincerely, Bob Harrison " not a queen breeder by any stretch of the imagination but is knowledgeable on bee breeding" -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:12:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: TM Testing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris: For in front of hives what to look for, see pg 43-44 in Apiacta XXV,42-45 (1990). Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 03:26:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: TM Testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > The bees that survived the outbreak were all of Italian origin. Every time I read about Brother Adam and his first revelation (as posted by Peter) I wonder what Brother Adams life might have been like had the first survivors in his bees been Amm . His first observation only included a small number of bees of both races and obviously from different queen sources. Brother Adams decision to look away from Amm was based strictly on the survivor aspect (which is what I would do starting out!). >From the year I spent on the Irish Beekeeping list I learned many things about the way Brother Adam is spoke about in England. They always treat Brother Adam with the respect due but on the internet do voice their opinions. Many English beekeepers ( some on this list) feel Brother Adam was too quick to toss the original Amm race in the trash can! Brother Adam has always been a hero of mine but I understand the place Amm lovers are coming from. Maybe one of these days I can travel to England and look at some of these bees today as the last time I looked at Amm was in 1978 I think when I got a couple hives in an very small operation I bought out from a beekeepers widow. He was around 80 years old when he died and I expect he had kept the Amm around for old times sake ( or into pain?). Those bees kind of reminded me of an x wife by always trying to find a way to get at me and ruin my day. Could never go around those bees with loose pant legs or tennis shoes. Very quick to sting. Back to Peters question: Again all beekeeping is local. I have had a microscope and jewelers 16 power hand scope and have done Tracheal mite (TM) tests for myself and at times others for MANY years. As a general rule I have found the Italian production queens I use are more susceptible to TM than both the Carniolans and especially the Russian bee. Perhaps the reason here is because of Sue Cobey's breeding program with the NWC ( widespread influence in U.S. Carniolans) and the Russian bee better able to handle the virus problems after years of exposure to both mites. Don't know. Only can report what I see. Regardless of the percent of infestations (which is the percent of the sample which tested positive for TM )you find or the bee lab sends back to you the figure they don't send back is the figure I look at with the microscope. After all as many as 200 TM have been found in a single bee trachea before I once read in a bee book. For certain TM tolerance could be found in the Italian bee but our U.S.queen producers only respond to TM selection (for the most part) when asked to do so by their queen buyers. Most commercial beekeepers want all these traits in their queens but are not willing to pay for the queen producers trouble. I certainly respect Dee Lusby, Joe Waggle & Scot McPherson's choice to not use any type of treatment in the their hives. Hopefully they can understand why others choose to travel the IPM road. Cleaning deadouts ( other than winter kill) is a hassle which I do not care for. Some winter kill provides the boxes with honey & pollen for spring splits and in Missouri the boxes are not bothered by moths etc. "Dinks" I do not winter provide the rest. To the commercial beekeeper random testing and treating with menthol/canola towels ( legal treatment) gives positive control over TM. Control TM and you control the virus. Gambling that your bees will not have an infestation of TM based solely on the fact some selection for TM tolerance has been done can be a slippery slope. The common menthol/canola oil treatment I think will be dropped for those using a formic acid (FA)treatment once a year as FA does a good job controlling TM( or so the maker says). Menthol has stood the test of time and has never caused contamination problems as dissipates quickly. Keep in a freezer or will dissipate before you can use it in my opinion. . Right now I am using a spring treatment of Miteaway 2 ( already done) and will check for TM in fall. I believe the FA treatment will make the need for other TM control not needed but remains to be seen. In beekeeping you need a system ( but a flexible system). I sit here with all my spring work none such as making sure all hives are queenright, no laying workers, all have got enough feed,pollen patties on, moved out of holding yard on to locations for honey flow (adjusted later if needed). Spring treatments completed. Others in our club are just now looking into their bee hives. When they are still making splits (mine done except for the small cell test) and feeding I will be putting supers on. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:15:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Current info on CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Brian Fredericksen wrote: > Am I missing something on the MAAREC site? > I did not see mentioned anywhere that any possible causes were being eliminated. See # Information for Growers of Bee Pollinated Crops (powerpoint presentation) (4/23/2007) slide number 8 pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:37:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Buckfast Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Peter Edwards wrote: > four and a half tons, 10080lbs from 240 colonies is only 42 lbs per colony - > not much of a recommendation for the Buckfast bee? I was always under the impression that the part of England where the Abbey is located is not a very good beekeeping region. I learned many years ago: "even a poor beekeeper will do well in a good location but ... even a great beekeeper will do poorly in a poor location" Furthermore, if a lot of those 240 colonies are mating nucs, that would pull the average down. from their website: > The ongoing objective of bee breeding at the Abbey is to produce bees that are more resistant to diseases, especially to Varroa, and ultimately more productive. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:57:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Midnight Bees In-Reply-To: <000701c786d9$8a82c680$2ebc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline G H Cale's ideas are outlined clearly in the Hive and the Honeybee (1975 edition) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:18:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Hybrid bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline G H Cale's ideas are outlined clearly in the Hive and the Honeybee (1975 edition): > The final evaluation of any inbred line must rest upon its performance in cross or hybrid combinations. Only a few lines out of many tested are retained because only a *few* show superior performance as hybrids. > When ordinary inbred lines are crossed, the progeny in some cases fail to show heterosis (hybrid vigor). More than that, with ordinary inbred lines there is no clear-cut way to achieve highly desirable lines that are compatible with each other during the inbreeding process. > The value of heterotic effects in a bee-breeding program depends upon the demonstration that hybrids may be formed having a greater productivity than the normally available honey bees. The average honey yields of the hybrids was 106 %. He goes on to state: > one must conclude that enormous opportunities in bee breeding are at hand. -- Peter L. Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:25:45 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Midnight Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob, Thanks for the input. I have one more question: is the increased honey production in hybrid bees due to the hybrid queen laying extra eggs and the colony raising extra workers or are the hybrid worker bees more productive? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:35:15 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Three-deep broodnests. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am running a couple of hives this year with 3-deep broodnests (the 'unlimited broodnest'). I have a couple of questions for folks here who've reported good success with this set-up: 1. Do you place a queen excluder on top of your 3-deep stacks or is the queen free to move up into the supers? 2. Do you find, by chance, that bees are content just to occupy the 3 deeps and don't move up into the supers above the queen excluder? 3. Did you see an improved honey production? And how many [medium] supers do you put on? 4. Have you ever tried creating the main entrance above the queen excluder in the 3-deep set-up? Please also advise in what part of the country you keep bees. Thank you. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:43:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. In-Reply-To: <20070425.073556.21820.2555668@webmail10.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I too am considering running 3 deep brood nests this season, as I am cutting back in numbers and will need bees to protect drawn comb from wax moths. I've been wondering how 3 deeps might impact over-wintering. Any sage input? Thanks, Aaron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:16:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Buckfast, revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline 1950: Buckfast is in the south-west of England, only a few feet above sea level and only a few miles from the Atlantic coast. Three miles to the north-west there is the wide plateau of Dartmoor, which rises to a height of 700 m (2 300 ft). Owing to our particular geographical situation we have an excessive rainfall, with an annual average of 165 cm (65 in.) compared with 58.5 cm (23 in.) for the south of England. The weather is extremely unsettled and changeable The average annual honey yield over the last thirty years has been 30 kg (66 lb.) per colony. Thus we have a favourable balance compared with the average production in America or in Europe. This year (1949) our average crop has been 72.5 kg (160 lb.) per colony, but 22 colonies with queens from the same breeding queen achieved an average of 92.5 kg (204 lb.) Brother Adam Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey Bee World 31(12), 1950, p 89-91 * * * 1991: In a recent issue of Bee World, the official organ of the International Bee Research Association, appeared a leading article by an American scientist expressing a fear that in the course of the winter of 1989-90 more than 1 million colonies perished, primarily due to the ravages of the tracheal mite (Acarapis woodi). He likewise stressed: "Losses from Varroa jacobsoni were predicted, but losses from Acarapis woodi were not widely expected." A few weeks later a letter reached me from a commercial beekeeper from Vermont, who reported that he lost half the number of his colonies in the spring of 1990, due to the tracheal mite, notwithstanding the use of menthol. He stated: "We have a bee capable of meeting our honey production requirements, but none able to withstand the diseases to which the honey bee is subject." In actual fact the loss of colonies recently suffered throughout North America could have been largely prevented if the necessary precautionary measures had been taken in time. In retrospect these reports remind me of the Isle of Wight epidemic, which according to official estimates, in the matter of about 12 years, caused a loss of more than 90 % of the colonies in the British Isles. The first outbreak of this disease was recorded in 1904 in the Isle of Wight. On reaching the mainland it spread like wildfire to every part of the British Isles. It reached Devon in 1913 and our own apiaries the following year. In the winter of 1915-16 we lost close to two-thirds of our colonies. The colonies lost belonged to the indigenous dark native variety, which had existed in this part of Europe since the termination of the last Ice age. Those that survived were mainly of Ligurian origin - the Alps of northern Italy bearing that name. The bees of this region are leather colored not bright yellow or golden. We had here a classic instance of a hopelessly susceptible race and in the Ligurian one manifesting, in identical environmental conditions, a high resistance to the tracheal mite. Moreover, before the demise of the native race every kind of disease of the honey bee could be found in our apiaries. With the eradication of the native variety, all the diseases, apart from acarine, vanished simultaneously. Needless to say, these findings proved a far-reaching turning point in our beekeeping and still more so in our efforts at improving the honey bee. Before very long we also found that the bright yellow or golden strains, irrespective of their origin, including a combination we developed ourselves, have proved invariably exceptionally susceptible to the tracheal mite. Also, we found that this extreme susceptibility will be transmitted by these bright golden drones and dominate when crossed with queens of highly resistant strains. Why this should be so, we do not know. Brother Adam An Inescapable Challenge American Bee Journal 131(8) 1991 p508-510 -- Peter L. Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:35:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Current info on CCD In-Reply-To: <462DE1D6.5060906@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bill Truesdell wrote: > Add to that my own and others direct observations of those who report > CCD when it is mites. Well, now, I don't know that CCD and varroa mites are not the same thing. Personally, I have seen hives disappear many times over the years and I always attributed it to getting the treatment on too late. I always thought what was happening is that the bees were flying off to rid the colony of whatever mites they could; maybe that's why some of these hives show low levels of mites. I have wondered to myself "what would happen if all these mite treatments stopped working altogether?" Or, if people switched over to treatments that don't really work. You could lose a lot of bees that way. By the way, I visited a beekeeper in a neighboring county on Monday. He lost 30 out of 30. Mostly the bees were just gone, but the few that still had bees, had very small clusters of dead bees. They used several different treatments against mites that they bought from a local bee supply store. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:25:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Einstein Quote Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here is a more extensive review of the now famous non-Einstien Quote http://www.snopes.com/quotes/einstein/bees.asp ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:37:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Current info on CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter L. Borst wrote: > > I have wondered to myself "what would happen if all these mite > treatments stopped working altogether?" Or, if people switched over to > treatments that don't really work. You could lose a lot of bees that > way. Amen. If you want to look at what may be happening, Peter has summed it up perfectly. I am having a hard time with this issue since some who are being quoted in the national news had high mite loads before they had "CCD". Their colonies died because of mites. Again, there probably is Fall Dwindle disease and all those other diseases that we had in the past and can easily have today, but some claiming CCD are not playing fair. They are doing a disservice to those who actually may have had CCD. For me, CCD has left science and the truth behind and is well into politics and there ain't much truth there. Follow the money. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:51:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Formic and Thymol info for poll In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My poll is done but I am going to continue it for one more week. I would like to hear from those who used Formic Acid (mite-away) or Thymol (Api-life-var) treatments and if they did or did not suffer losses over this past winter and numbers lost and total going in to winter. Also appreciated would be how many years you have used them to treat for mites. Your names and results will disappear into the electron entropy, so fear not. The compiled data will be a part of the first poll results. Again, do not post on this list but contact me directly at: bhfarms@suscom-maine.net Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:15:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: TM Testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 25/04/2007 12:55:20 GMT Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: Control TM and you control the virus. Do you know that there is a link between TM and virus? When this was discussed on the Irish list a while ago Norman Carreck was not aware of a connection other than that they both thrive under the same conditions. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:47:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Current info on CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Today's Kansas City Star had an article on CCD. Pretty much the same information again except the article said "taken up by Martians" had been ruled out. I am not kidding! I spoke today with a migratory beekeeper enroute from Texas to Nebraska. He said the bees in Texas look better than they have in years. He told me a few rumors but until I verify will keep to myself. He said most of the beekeepers wintering at the area we go in Texas still meet at the same restaurant each day for breakfast. Seeing those guys I miss! He said all those guys report excellent bees this year. Said to tell me "Hi" and a speedy recovery. For those which do not know I had another hernia operation. Second in five years. Had a destroyed rotator cuff three years ago. Those which have met me know I work in the bee yards. I have got callused hands and muscle tone. When I meet a commercial beekeeper ( at national meetings) for the first time if I do not fell callused hands or see muscle tone I can't help think he is an office dweller. My best information comes from the beekeepers with their heads looking in the hives. The Nebraska beekeeper seemed not worried about CCD. Said his family lost all their bees in 1989 to tracheal mites. He said they expected losses but not a total wipeout. He also said when varroa hit his hives went from around 2000 to less than 200. I will repeat one rumor. He said the talk in the over winter Texas locations is beekeepers with CCD losses *might* collect up to $35 per hive. The payoff for pesticide kill was $18 in the last year of the program ( 1978) so about double the amount almost thirty years later if happens. The amount would buy a small package (less shipping) but was the same deal in 1978. I repeat only a rumor at this point. However the package replacement figure is in line with what I would expect the government to do. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:19:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Aaron & All, The old master of three -deep brood nests was Dr. Basil Furgala. Outlined in a booklet from Marla Spivak published by the University of Minnesota Extension Service is his plan. "Beekeeping in Northern Climates" The book also lists Dr. Marla Spivak & Gary Reuter as co-authors( below Furgala). I set up some test hives exactly like the book said right after the book was published.(2000) and the bees wintered excellent and came out of winter strong. I did change the way the book said the next year and ran the overwintered hive in two deeps for honey production and ran a split with a new queen. In fall I combined the three back together with the *new queen on top* of the old hive and old queen. In a second hive I killed the old queen. Both wintered and both had the new marked queens in spring. In the book they say to build the new split up into three hive bodies during the summer to overwinter and then depopulate the old hive. Rather than depopulate you could increase numbers as I believe a queen should last two years if you do not mind a *few* queenless colonies, drone layers and laying workers in the second year. Not a big deal for the hobby beekeeper but each unit which drops from production during the honey/pollination season cuts productivity. If *not going to almonds* losses in fall & winter ( after honey season) only create the necessary boxes for starting new hives in spring. I figure each overwintered hive should yield one split in Missouri & two in Texas. 50% loss in Missouri = back to previous numbers 67% " rebuild in Texas = back to previous numbers if you take strong hives to winter in Texas and they come out of Texas winter strong even a greater number of splits can be made. When you limp into California in November with "dinks" its hard to rebuild. The bees are reluctant to brood up until after Dec. 23rd. when the days start to get longer which is the clue the bees are looking for. In Texas late fall flows are the norm. Bees brood then when they would be in a cluster up north. When you pull the nets in November in Texas the pollen starts coming in bringing the colony back to life. Within an hour you see the full pollen baskets coming in! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:00:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Current info on CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:47:02 -0500, Bob Harrison wrote: >I will repeat one rumor. He said the talk in the over winter Texas locations >is beekeepers with CCD losses *might* collect up to $35 per hive. > Sounds like a free for all if that becomes reality since any beekeeper can probably round up some empty hive bodies with comb. I wonder what the perequiste would be to claim a CCD loss? Inclusion of your state on the now world famous CCD map? Here in Mn we have no apiary program and hence no state record of hive numbers etc so how would someone qualify? Hey why not send any beekeeper a check as long as they have a business card or void business check indicating they are in business? or better yet start a USDA beekeeper supplemental income program like the corn and bean farmers get and most of them drive $400K tractors and new pickups. The feds subsidize so many questionable programs already why not subsidize a segment of agriculture that really has a history of problems. I'm sure we would see an increase in keepers and hives if the $$ is right. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:10:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: A very unscientific poll In-Reply-To: <461E2B37.6030505@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some have asked about the poll, so here is the original post. I will keep it open for another week in case you have the overwhelming urge to participate.. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine Bill Truesdell wrote: > We can run a poll of beekeepers on this list who have been effected by > CCD. > > If you have been effected by CCD, please email me. You will only be a > data point and your email will be trashed after you are counted, and > my memory is such that it will go no further. If you want to add more > info, such as number of colonies and number killed by CCD, that would > be appreciated but not necessary. > > My address is (to make it easy to reply): > > bhfarms@suscom-maine.net > > At the end of two weeks, I will report the very unscientific findings. > > Bill Truesdell > Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:37:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: TM Testing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Slade wrote: > Do you know that there is a link between TM and virus? When this was > discussed on the Irish list a while ago Norman Carreck was not aware of a connection > other than that they both thrive under the same conditions. > > You can say the same thing about Varroa. Were there no virus present, colonies could survive with just about one mite per bee. But that does not happen. Virus are present in most colonies with more different ones in some than others. Both mites weaken the bees. Weak bees are more prone to pick up disease. Weak bees will spread the disease without the further help of the mite. Just look at the mite levels that are considered critical. If I had 20% tracheal in my colonies and no virus they would survive the winter fairly well. But they do not because there is also virus present. If I recall what Norman was disputing was the mite as a vector of the virus. His research looked at that and he concluded that the mite was not the vector. During those days, the mite was blamed as a carrier of the virus. I spoke to a life long beekeeper who said that they knew about the different virus long before the mites hit in the US but never had a problem with them like we do with the mites present. He never or rarely saw any of the virus symptoms before mites and now they are commonplace. I look at this like pneumonia, which is the usual cause of death of those with long term illness, yet it really is not. It is all the other things that weaken the person before hand that allows pneumonia to kill. A healthy person will get past pneumonia just like a healthy bee colony will live with virus, just as they did before mites. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:39:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron & Waldig I over winter in threes and fours. take a look at the March abj ( pg. 179). I spit hives in late Jan with this method its been working well. Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 23:41:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Buckfast Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > I was always under the impression that the part of England where the > Abbey is located is not a very good beekeeping region. I would not agree with that (I was born and spent most of my early years in SW Devon) - but perhaps there are some Devonshire beekeepers lurking who might care to comment (I believe that Devon has more beekeepers than any other county in the UK - so it can't be bad!). > Furthermore, if a lot of those 240 colonies are mating nucs, that > would pull the average down. The website states: 'The total number of hives in production currently is about 240', so I assume that these are not nucs. >> The ongoing objective of bee breeding at the Abbey is to produce bees >> that are more resistant to diseases, especially to Varroa, and ultimately >> more productive. They are not alone! Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:18:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: TM Testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, I don't have access to that publication. Canyou paint a word picture? Chris In a message dated 25/04/2007 12:47:03 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: Chris: For in front of hives what to look for, see pg 43-44 in Apiacta XXV,42-45 (1990). ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:44:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Current info on CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >Sounds like a free for all if that becomes reality since any beekeeper can probably round up some empty hive bodies with comb. I wonder what the perequiste would be to claim a CCD loss? I have never filed a claim for a pesticide kill and have had a few. Usually a yard or two partial kill a year. half the hive bees dead in front of the hive is typical. Bees dying is one thing. pesticide contaminated pollen in comb is a horse of a different color! >Inclusion of your state on the now world famous CCD map? No although a beekeeper has reported dropping from 650 hives to a 100 last fall. He has wondered why Missouri is not on the map. Here in Mn we have no apiary program and hence no state record of hive numbers etc so how would someone qualify? I would imagine it would be a federal program and handled by the county CCC office. The same place which handles the government honey loan. Only a guess by they also handle crop disaster. >Hey why not send any beekeeper a check as long as they have a business card or void business check indicating they are in business? The government is about forms. They ask complicated questions on those forms. There are only two beekeepers registered in my county. For years I used my name. Then the form changed asking the number of beekeeping operations I was involved in. I then jumped through hoops and got the loan as a corporation. Then I said Busy Bee Acres Apiaires inc. had no other beekeeping interests and list my corp federal ID number instead of my SS number. > I'm sure we would see an increase in keepers and hives if the $$ is right. I doubt a lousy $35 package will make people flock into beekeeping. Danny Weaver is asking $90 for a package in the bee magazines plus shipping. Quote from a source on the CCD team to me personally: " Now might not be a good time to get into commercial beekeeping" He reads the list and I am sure he is glad I left his name out but what he said. What does he know we do not I have to ask? If it was not for California almond pollination many commercial beekeepers would have been out of business by now. Niche local honey sideline business will always survive. Unless they to can not keep their hives alive and CCD hits the queen rearing industry (which as far as I can tell has been untouched by CCD or reports very little loss). A report came from Georgia on BEE-L but was latter shown to not be enough of a CCD loss to cancel orders. *IF* the cause of CCD is systemic pesticide on seeds then the industry is in trouble. The price for corn when I last filled my livestock bulk bin was close to four dollars a 100 pounds in bulk up from a little over a dollar last year. I buy tons at a time. All the farms which planted soy beans are thinking corn with systemic pesticide treated seeds for corn worm. The chemical was not listed on the labels we checked. On purpose? Only read treated with systemic pesticide for corn worm. A beekeeper in our club which works for a company which is involved. He said they are prepared to fight removing the systemic pesticide corn from the market. Right now selling like hot cakes! Remember the replacement bee package and price comes from a reliable source but ONLY A RUMOR at this point. I heard about the find of varroa in Hawaii before it was ever posted on BEE_L but did not post because I wanted to be sure was not a rumor. By the time I got the official conformation the same was posted on BEE_L. In the case of the old indemnification program information can be found on page 147-148 of the book " Beekeeping in the Midwest" by Elbert Jaycox The program was handled by the Agriculture Stabilization and Conservation Service (ASCS ) department of the USDA. up until the program ended in 1978. The ASCS is now part of the Commercial Commodity Corporation ( CCC) or might still be in the county office but not handling honey loans. Don't know. CCC is the branch honey loans are made through now. The indemnity program was handled on a county basis. A rep from the office went to the beekeepers location to verify losses back then. It is possible ( only a guess) that if the indemnification program is used again that pass unverifiable losses (2006) will not be paid and only future losses with proper verification and with proper inspection will be paid. Don't know. I personally see the program as a good thing to help keep beekeepers afloat. Sends at least a small amount of money to help out to the beekeepers which need the help. If imadicloprid treated seed is the cause of CCD ( does the CCD team already know this?) then we DO NOT need research but protection from systemic treated seeds! Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:44:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Current info on CCD In-Reply-To: <000d01c78793$b2ad69c0$1dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe it is now called FSA (Farm service agency) Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 Bob Harrison wrote: > Hello All, > I would imagine it would be a federal program and handled by the county CCC > office. The same place which handles the government honey loan. Only a guess > by they also handle crop disaster. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:47:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: more CCD This is worth more than .02 since I paid $3 for 'slicing' I'll assume that BP is competent since OMAF paid her for testing (TM) all last year For me Apr 18 was first pollen, a warm day and I inspected all hives (left) The second round thru and I noted a lot of 'hoppers' in front of one of the nucs (and only one hive & BTW this nuc too was 'touched' by a skunk) (hopper = a living bee that cannot fly, not just catching its breath) 30 -40 for each of 2 days so I put a small formic pad on friday evening There were NO hoppers the next day -- none!! So my opinon was that CCD was TM -- but not now The sample was only hoppers (27) 0 DWV, 0 young bees, no obvious old bees (frayed wings,hairless,etc) 14/27 had TM, 7/27 severe TM So the questions are: Why did the 13 that did NOT have TM become hoppers? Why did formic make such a dramatic improvement? Is my intuition about skunks bogus? damn I dislike formic dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:07:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Law Subject: Vase made by bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Vase made by bees http://www.inhabitat.com/2007/04/24/vase-made-by-bees-by-studio-libertiny/ -- Dennis Law ( aka Paul D. Law ) Brooklyn South Community Emergency Response Team Logistics Section ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 23:26:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: CCD = Nosema ceranae & Iflavirus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit UCSF Sleuths Identify Suspects in Mystery of Vanishing Honeybees http://pub.ucsf.edu/today/print.php?news_id=200704251 By Wallace Ravven UCSF scientists have identified two likely suspects in the massive die-off of half a million bee colonies in the US. Joe DeRisi, PhD, and Don Ganem, MD, both Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigators at UCSF, have used a powerful combination of a "virus chip" — a microarray with DNA samples of most known viruses and fungi — and "shotgun" sequencing, which identifies telltale DNA from random samples of the biological sample. The Army's Edgewood Chemical Biological Center at the Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland sent DeRisi samples to analyze from bees in the Central Valley of California. DeRisi and Ganem identified a parasite known to have caused massive bee losses in the last decade in Asia and Europe, making it a strong candidate as a culprit responsible for bee collapse in the US. The parasite is called Nosema ceranae, a so-called microsporidian fungus — a small, single-celled parasite that mainly has been associated with affecting Asian bees, and is thought to have jumped to the Western honeybee in the last few years. The shotgun approach succeeded in this search, as the microarry does not include this species' DNA. Joe DeRisi The lab's search for culprits using the micorarray, however, also netted a second potential killer, a virus from the genus Iflavirus, which has been implicated in a number of problems in the bee industry. "The next — and very critical — step is to assay other failing hives around the country and the world to measure to what degree these pathogens we have identified are also associated with bee collapse elsewhere," DeRisi said. "We can't say that because the bees in Central Valley may have fallen to one or both of these pathogens that we have now proven that this is the cause throughout the United States." Don Ganem The virus chip gene-hunting technique is designed to identify a sample virus by comparing its DNA or RNA to more than 20,000 snippets of genetic material derived from all known viruses found in humans, animals, plants, fungi and bacteria. The microarry also has gene sequences from other microorganisms. The chip draws on computer chip technology, computation and bioinformatics, but in essence it is a simple 3 x 1 inch glass microscope slide. Onto the slide the scientists robotically deposit 10 to 12 different DNA sequences from all the viruses. Each sample appears as a microscopic dot, about a tenth of a millimeter in diameter — giving it the name micoroarray. Researchers then wash fluorescently tagged DNA from a sample of interest over the slide, and wherever the two sets of nucleic acid match up, they anneal to each other. The slide is then rinsed and visualized with a scanning laser microscope. The dots that have found a match glow with fluorescent light. During the SARS scare in 2003, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) turned to DeRisi for help in identifying the cause of SARS, or severe acute respiratory syndrome. His lab used the virus chip to confirm the culprit, a new form of coronavirus. Last year DeRisi and Ganem, in collaboration with scientists at the Cleveland Clinic, discovered a previously unknown human virus associated with prostate cancer. DeRisi is professor of biochemistry, and Ganem is professor of microbiology and immunology at UCSF. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:35:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: more CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave & All, Despite what has been said by Bailey TM has always shown symptoms in my bees. Hoppers are common and found as far a fifty feet from the hives. Usually they show wing damage but sometimes only hoppers or crawlers. Some even stagger or tremble. the questions are: Why did the 13 that did NOT have TM become hoppers? Not sure but a new virus has been found according to what I have been told. Yet unnamed. Symptoms unknown. Comes from a reliable source but still has not been announced so consider a rumor until offically announced. >why did formic make such a dramatic improvement? You would feel better if the mites in your trachea died! I have never done this test with formic but will explain the way we decided to buy menthol to treat bees for TM> Menthol kills TM fast! To test menthol the second largest beekeeper took several bees with tracheal mites and placed a few menthol crystals menthol in with the bees. Then about fifteen minutes later he discected the bees and the TM were all dead. He bought enough menthol to treat all his hives. >Why did formic make such a dramatic improvement? I suspect formic killed the TM. Hopping seems to be a method bees try to eject the mites from their trachea.I imagine they can spit the dead TM out but have never observed a hopper surviving late stage TM. Usually a hopper has some type of virus wing damage. In your case it would seem (only a guess) your hives became infested through forager robbing. Too bad you did not test a few young bees from the brood nest. Is my intuition about skunks bogus? Skunks can weaken a hive but only once in awhile have I had serious skunk problems. Telltale signs are scratch marks on the front of the hive. They claw at an angle and eat the bees when they run out. They like to come around at dusk and I use the skunks for target practice. Usually there are more than one. Peta people stop reading now! Once I killed five in a yard. I like to use a shoulder holster and quick draw on the skunks! I leave the dead skunks lie and other skunks get the message. After a couple days I dig a hole next to the dead skunk and push the skunk in the hole with a stick. I have seen possum eat dead skunk and even a raccon but only if fresh killed. >damn I dislike formic I wear a respirator under a bugg baffler when placing formic but the pads have little smell when removed. One treatment then done. 21 days and done! two treatments with with apilife var and apigaurd. I do not like the mess left on frames with api life var but it stays too hot in my area to use FA in August but not thymol.. Once you cut spacers (old bee boxes but wear eye protection and use old saw blades as flying pieces of nails happens and the nails ruin blades) then using mite away 2 is easy. With the spacers I also can place my pollen patties on top rather than between the two deep boxes which is a hassle or at least easier than between the boxes. Also easier to check when the pollen patty is about gone. I use old frame end bars for spacing the pads off the frames. David V. says getting the pad up off the frame is important. When we last spoke (ABF Austin ) he said 3/8 was probbably high enough off the frames but his video said half an inch I believe. Good luck with your bees this year Dave! I have decided to tell beekeepers my ways of keeping bees as many are having problems. if others on the list are having success with bees please share. The days for sharing are here and the days of not sharing secrets are over. These are tough times for beekeeping. Despite what many say commercial beekeepers are on the endangered species list in the U.S. 300 million people and the current estimate is 1700 commercial beekeepers! I would guess less than a hundred of the 1700 run over a 1000 hives but only a guess. We used to say their are two kinds of beekeepers in the U.S. " those with varroa mites and those going to get varroa mites" I hope the saying will not apply to our current unknown CCD problem: Lets all hope the below statement never becomes true! " those with CCD problems and those going to get CCD problems" True it seems the bees are out running CCD right now with queens laying several thousand eggs a day in many areas but what happens this fall? Hopefully we have seen the last of the die off! Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 00:35:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD = Nosema ceranae & Iflavirus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Iflavirus has more then one form and appears to be a variation of deformed wing virus DWV http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1472076 Finding Iflavirus then appears insignificant since most bees sampled in this Penn State study had DWV as did 100% of mites sampled. So the USCF report's significance then appears to be all about Nosema Ceranae.......or does someone have other information about Iflavirus? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 01:11:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD = Nosema ceranae & Iflavirus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit More on the UCSF information http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-bees26apr26,0,896792.story?coll=la-home- headlines Researchers link fungus to bee losses in U.S. By Jia-Rui Chong and Thomas H. Maugh II Times Staff Writers 5:06 PM PDT, April 25, 2007 A fungus that caused widespread loss of bee colonies in Europe and Asia may be playing a crucial role in the mysterious phenomenon known as Colony Collapse Disorder that is now wiping out bees across the U.S., University of California, San Francisco researchers said Wednesday. Researchers have been struggling for months without success to explain the disorder, and the new findings represent the first solid evidence pointing to a potential cause. But the results are "highly preliminary" and are from only a few hives from Le Grand in California's Merced County, UCSF biochemist Joe DeRisi said. "We don't want to give anybody the impression that this thing has been solved." Other researchers said Wednesday that they too had found the fungus, a single-celled parasite called Nosema ceranae, in affected hives from around the country -- as well as in some hives that have continued to survive and live. Those researchers also have found two other fungi and a half- dozen viruses in the dead bees. "N. ceranae" is "one of many pathogens" in the bees, said entomologist Diana Cox-Foster of Pennsylvania State University. "By itself, it is probably not the culprit . . . but it may be one of the key players." Cox-Foster was one of the organizers of a meeting in Washington, D.C., on Monday and Tuesday where about 60 bee researchers gathered to discuss Colony Collapse Disorder. "We still haven't ruled out other factors, such as pesticides or inadequate food resources following a drought," she said. "There are lots of stresses that these bees are experiencing," and it may be a combination of factors that is responsible. Historically, bee losses are not unusual. Weather, pesticide exposures and infestations by pests, such as the Varroa mite, have wiped out significant numbers of colonies in the past, particularly in the 1960s and 1970s. But the current loss is unprecedented. Beekeepers in 28 states, Canada and England have reported large losses. About a quarter of the estimated 2.4 million colonies across the United States have been lost since last fall, said Jerry Hayes of the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services in Gainesville. "These are remarkable and dramatic losses," said Hayes, who is also president of the Apiary Inspectors of America. Besides a loss in honey production, commercial beehives are used to pollinate one-third of the country's agricultural crops, including apples, peaches, pears, nectarines, cherries, strawberries and pumpkins. Ninety percent of California's almond crop is dependent on bees, and a loss of commercial hives could be devastating. "For the most part, they just disappeared," said Florida beekeeper Dave Hackenberg, who was among the first to note the losses. "The boxes were full of honey. That was the mysterious thing. Usually other bees will rob those hives out. But nothing had happened." Researchers now believe that the foraging bees are too weak to return to their hives. DeRisi and UCSF's Don Ganem, who normally look for the causes of human diseases, were brought into the bee search by virologist Evan W. Skowronski of the U.S. Army's Edgewood Chemical Biological Center in Aberdeen, Md. Dr. Charles Wick of the center had used a new system of genetic analysis to identify pathogens in ground-up bee samples from California. He found several viruses, including members of a recently identified family called iflaviruses. It is not known if these small, RNA-containing viruses, which infect the Varroa mite, are pathogenic to bees. Skowronski forwarded the samples to DeRisi, who also found evidence of the viruses, along with genetic material from Nosema. "There was a lot of stuff from Nosema, about 25 percent of the total," Skowronski said. "That meant there was more than there was bee RNA. That leads me to believe that the bee died from that particular pathogen." If Nosema does play a role in Colony Collapse Disorder, there may be some hope for beekeepers. A closely related parasite called Nosema apis, which also affects bees, can be controlled by the antibiotic fumagillin, and there is some evidence that it will work on N. ceranae as well. FWIW I take Jerry Hayes to mean that the 25% figure of national losses includes winter losses too. That would mean CCD losses is 10%-15% of the 2.4 million. I would still love to hear someone clarify that number. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 00:23:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Guys, I've run bees in 3 deeps for at least a decade. It's the best way to over winter bees and it provides an easy way to checkerboard the hives in the early spring. I've tried a few tests of overwintering in 2 deeps in the interim and have found that wintering in 3 deeps is the best way to go in my climate. I don't think it would be possible to use a 3 deep setup for a migratory operation unless the hives were split before transporting. And that's not an option in my climate. You can see a few pictures and read about how I run my 3 deep hives at: http://bees.farvista.net/gche.htm Regards Dennis Murrell http://bees.farvista.net ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:18:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: TM Testing In-Reply-To: <462FBC12.4010309@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill > If I recall what Norman was disputing was the mite as a vector of the > virus. His research looked at that and he concluded that the mite was > not the vector. During those days, the mite was blamed as a carrier of > the virus. The bees carry the virus, but the varroa mite allows the virus to infect the bee by injection which only takes about a hundred viruses to achieve. Normal oral infection of the same virus takes 10 to the power 13 to achieve the same effect. The direct route to the heamolymph is the important factor, the mite may or may not carry the virus itself, but it's penetration of the bee's defences is the route cause, allowing the smaller number an easier path. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 06:39:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092112EE35B7@UAEXCH.univ.alban y.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > I've been wondering how 3 deeps might impact over-wintering. I over-winter many in 3 deeps, more in 2 deeps and a medium. In our northern climate, I feel that two deeps is too small. Bees preparing their broodnests for winter, need to store honey, pollen, AND raise a large population of young bees. Hard to do all that in the same combs. With 3 deeps, the bottom 2 can be used for brood rearing, while the top deep is used for honey storage...and more inportantly...pollen storage. A large cluster of young bees going into winter, will need ample pollen the following spring. 3 deeps insures they have it where they need it for late winter/early spring brood rearing. One drawback might be slightly reduced honey crop. The bees will put more in the broodnest, and less in the supers...one reason I went to 2 deeps and a medium. But, honey left on the hives for winter means lots of young bees in the spring. Mike ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 04:17:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Malaysia to Study Medicinal Properties of 'Wild' Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Malaysia to Study Medicinal Properties of ‘Wild’ Honey Research on Wild Honey for Medicinal Values The Star (Malaysia), 4/26/2007 THE Federal Agriculture Marketing Authority (Fama) has signed an agreement with Universiti Sains Malaysia (USM), Kubang Kerian in Kelantan, to conduct research on wild honey for medical purposes. Fama chairman Datuk Abdul Rahim Bakri said that the two-year study, which started three months ago, focused on ‘tualang’ honey collected from Kedah... To read the full article, go to: http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/04/malaysia-to-study-medicinal-properties.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 07:17:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Mother Nature implicated in Honey Bee Die-Off MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline from the San Francisco Chronicle, Thursday, April 26, 2007 quote: Evan Skowronski, senior team leader for biosciences at the Army lab and a friend of DeRisi's, said that because the stake are high, every important lead in the search for the cause of the honeybee deaths needs to be pursued. Skowronski said there is no reason to think that the cause of Colony Collapse Disorder is "anything other than Mother Nature.'' -- Peter L. Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:24:49 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone keep a 3-deep broodnest through the honey flow and see an improved honey harvest with a lesser swarming tendency? I know overwintering in 3-d or 4-d is not a problem - the more space underneath the wintering cluster the more relatively draftless air for the bees. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:57:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: IFLAVIRUS Comments: cc: charles.h.wick@us.army.mil, mrwick@montana.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All: The LA Article is based on samples that I took from collapsing colonies in CA last month. I sent these to the Army via another small MT business, BVS, Inc. The Army came down to the Beltsville meeting to share their results, which were obtained last Friday and Sunday. For clarification, the IVDS system is not a gene-based system. Rather, it sizes and counts intact viruses - its fast, quick, and relatively cheap. It appears to have identified 7 viruses in FL, CA, and Australian bees. By itself, IVDS does not name viruses, so Charles Wick sent samples on to CA for sequencing. The identifications are still ongoing, but iflavirus, as I understand, is not confined to Dwarf Wing, looks like we have Black Queen Cell, Sacbrood, and some other things. The point of all of this, the IVDS system is reasonably portable. It requires simple sample prep - grind up bees with a coffee grinder or blender, spin-down, filter, shoot through instrument. It will flag every virus in the sample. Takes about 2 hrs, so if one had a mobile or transportable lab, it could be sent to problem areas, and samples could be processed for virus the same day. Each virus appears as a peak on an output chart. The height of the peak indicates the titer (concentration). This system has not been applied to bee viruses before. Its been about 4 weeks since we sent the first samples to the Army. They had to work up the sample prep steps. Now that they have that step complete, sample processing is easy. Once a peak is named, one can reasonably expect that when a peak for that size virus is found, it will be what the original I.D. said - so you don't have to continually do sequencing. Obviously, one will need to re-check periodically. Jerry Bee Alert Technology Dave VBS, Inc. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:00:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD = Nosema ceranae & Iflavirus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All, My two cents worth on the information Brian posted. >"N. ceranae" is "one of many pathogens" in the bees, said entomologist Diana Cox-Foster of Pennsylvania State University. "By itself, it is probably not the culprit . . . but it may be one of the key players." Again none of the beekeepers reporting bee losses treated their hives with Fumidl B according to the survey report. >"We still haven't ruled out other factors, such as pesticides or inadequate food resources following a drought," she said. "There are lots of stresses that these bees are experiencing," and it may be a combination of factors that is responsible. How can you ever rule any of the long list of things found ? So many problems found in those deadouts and bees! >Historically, bee losses are not unusual. Weather, pesticide exposures and infestations by pests, such as the Varroa mite, have wiped out significant numbers of colonies in the past, particularly in the 1960s and 1970s. I can't believe this statement is included in such a technical report! We had neither the tracheal mite or the varroa mite in the 1960's & 1970s. Hopefully this statement was only a reporter not getting his facts correct! .>But the current loss is unprecedented. NO ITS NOT! We saw higher losses when the U.S. bees were first hit by tracheal and then again by varroa. >Researchers now believe that the foraging bees are too weak to return to their hives. Thats what we have been saying all along! . Disappearing is not correct! Jerry B. realized this fact right off and changed the name! >It is not known if these small, RNA-containing viruses, which infect the Varroa mite, are pathogenic to bees. And really if significate at all! >Skowronski forwarded the samples to DeRisi, who also found evidence of the viruses, along with genetic material from Nosema. No news here! We knew the above right from the start! >If Nosema does play a role in Colony Collapse Disorder, there may be some hope for beekeepers. >A closely related parasite called Nosema apis, which also affects bees, can be controlled by the antibiotic fumagillin, and there is some evidence that it will work on N. ceranae as well. There is more than evidence! reports from overseas say although stubborn the new strain can be controlled with the proper dose of fumagillin. One gallon of fumagillin mixed as per label FOLLOWED BY ANOTHER GALLON OF UNMEDICATED SYRUP.Although what the label says very few beekeepers follow the treatment with the last gallon! Also many of my beekeeping friends try to treat more hives than the label says the product will treat which only knocks nosema back but does not eliminate the disease. I have always been able to control nosema by following the label instructions to the letter. You can not treat fall hives ( 60 per 9.5 gram bottle)with the same dose as spring nucs ( 120 per 9.5 gram bottle)and get good control although I have watched beekeepers try to use the spring dose on fall colonies! Reports from overseas I have got is that all signs of the new strain may not completely disappear with a single treatment and a second might be needed later around 6 weeks later. Possibly because of reinfection from bees cleaning nosema from the hive after the treatment period. Not sure but reports indicate a single treatment greatly reduces the problem. The price of Fumidil went up by around thirty bucks so many beekeepers quit treating and paid a dear price as far as nosema is concerned in my opinion! Every time a product used by commercial beekeepers goes up some dose low or do not treat at all until losses occur. Has been that way since I started in beekeeping almost fifty years ago! I remember Richard Taylor always said treating for nosema was a unnecessary expense in his Bee Culture column till the year he lost most his hives to a nosema outbreak! I really gained respect for Richard that year when he shared the cause of his loss in his column and said out of control nosema would wipe a yard of bees out! In the case of the European foulbrood (EF)found many of the CCD deadouts those beekeepers quit treating with terramycin and went to tylosin which will not control EF> Many thought they were only seeing Parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) when they really were looking at EF which many had perhaps never seen before or in so many years they did not recognize the disease. Step one in my opinion is to become better beekeepers. Reduce numbers of hives until you get a handle on your operation. I find it interesting that the CCD problem is believed to have started around three years ago. Exactly the time when almond pollination fees topped a hundred dollars. Outfits expanded beyond the numbers of hives many could handle! Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:52:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: CCD = Nosema ceranae & Iflavirus In-Reply-To: <000f01c7881c$0c9e20e0$25bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Harrison > Also many of my beekeeping friends try to treat more hives than > the label > says the product will treat which only knocks nosema back but does not > eliminate the disease. And is a recipe for resistance. [shakes head] Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:58:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: IFLAVIRUS In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am sure the team will take samples from beekeepers not affected by CCD as a control. And the CCD beekeeper's other colonies which were not affected. Would love to hear those results. My guess is they will not be much different from the CCD colonies except in degree. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:14:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD = Nosema ceranae & Iflavirus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I received some information today that some of the CCD losses had been fed Fumidil. My understanding is that the jurry is still out on the effectiveness of Fumidil on Nosema ceranae. Like there is no solid study from a researcher only field observations from beekeepers in EU. No/Yes? anybody comment? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:24:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Mother Nature implicated in Honey Bee Die-Off Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 07:17:21 -0400, Peter L. Borst wrote: > >Evan Skowronski, senior team leader for biosciences at the Army lab >and a friend of DeRisi's, said that because the stake are high, every >important lead in the search for the cause of the honeybee deaths >needs to be pursued. Skowronski said there is no reason to think that >the cause of Colony Collapse Disorder is "anything other than Mother >Nature.'' > I wonder if Mr. Skowronski, is a beekeeper? That comment does not address the steady decline and frequent "crisises" in the industry over the last few years. While there may and continue to be different opinions on CCD, I would hope many people involved would agree that the trends are disturbing and some things need to change. IMO the things that need to change are; Imidacloprid and systemic insecticide useage, harsh mite treatments and comb contamination, some migratory practices, subsequent stress on honeybees, and the inability to get Country Of Origin Labeling for honey to give beekeepers a better chance to run a profitable business . We are not operating in a sustainable environment and just solving CCD is not going to fix the bee industry. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:59:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: CCD = Nosema ceranae & Iflavirus In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian wrote: >>>>>My understanding is that the jurry is still out on the effectiveness of Fumidil on Nosema ceranae. Like there is no solid study from a researcher only field observations from beekeepers in EU. No/Yes? anybody comment? <<<<<< I worked on this angle when I was writing about this. If you Google Mariano Higes, eventually you'll come to a small well-done study that cleaned up Nosema Ceranae in three treatments. This was presented at a meeting in Switzerland. http://web.uniud.it/eurbee/Proceedings/Diseases.pdf In another place it was noted that it was likely that it had been present in France for years. A Dr Paxton has a paper coming soon in the Journal of Invertebrate Pathology that will state that it's about everywhere. I suspect we are just finding it now, but it's been around. Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:49:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. In-Reply-To: <20070426.052515.15626.2567943@webmail04.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > Does anyone keep a 3-deep broodnest through the honey flow and see an >improved honey harvest with a lesser swarming tendency? Answers to this will depend on where you keep bees...the strength and duration of your flows, and the srtength of your colony. Here, I see reduced swarming...for awhile. The bees aren't so apt to get ahead of you in spring...around Dandelion/fruit bloom. But, you still have to manage your bees, queens, and super properly. If the colony is strong, and the queen prolific, you will have improved honey harvest. But, if colony isn't a boomer, or the queen is slow, the top brood box will get much of the crop. As a compromise, I mostly use 2 deeps and a medium. Mike ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 21:00:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD = Nosema ceranae & Iflavirus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All Brian said; >I received some information today that some of the CCD losses had been fed Fumidil. All losses have been lumped together now and word of the national organizations trying for a package replacement has passed through the industry. However up until the Dec. 15th. report NONE OF THE CCD die off beekeepers had used Fumidil. Please look on page 5 (of the 22 page report) Under the heading feeding A. carbohydrates: " Some added antibiotics , NONE used Fumagillan" http://www.ento.psu.edu/MAAREC/PressReleases/FallDwindleupdate0107.pdf The first cases looked at by the CCD team all were similar symptoms . Now many want onboard wanting whatever funds which may or may not be passed out! Now I expect to see a big increase in CCD reports. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:07:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Mother Nature implicated in Honey Bee Die-Off In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: ......... I would hope many people involved would agree that the trends are disturbing and some things need to change. ........ inability to get Country Of Origin Labeling for honey to give beekeepers a better chance to run a profitable business . We are not operating in a sustainable environment and just solving CCD is not going to fix the bee industry. Thought just came to mind. For those of us who can, why not advertise on our label "Honey 100% produced in U.S.A."? I use a double fold label and advertise in it that my honey is produced in Monroe County, the county in which I reside. If imports are mixed in, can the label state that it is produced in one location? Mike in LA --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 00:41:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: more CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob: So many misunderstandings that I don't know where to begin! If I write more clearly will you read more closely? Formic: Yes I have experience, 10 yrs ago, hence my dislike A full size pad is best, but not for a nuc for a few reasons It does work very well, when too hot dilute a calculated amount and they won't kill Queen (down to 40%) Why does formic have an effect on bees that do NOT have TM??? Is n. cerena sensitive to formic??? Skunks: I was refering to the biological warfare aspect Since i'm in canada and since long guns are awkward to drag around I use eggs. BTW does anyone know how well cats handle an asperin OD? I can just see it: See bear, lift 22, say damn, damn, damn, should I or shouldn't I....... BTW most hoppers don't hop, its just a name Most crawl up a grass stem, fall, repeat until death in grass they usually only go 5 - 10', most <5' You can be sure that I checked the other hives very closely This was the only one with hoppers >Yet unnamed. Symptoms unknown. We might guess that it interferes with flying or homing or makes them restless (in that order) Yes my data strongly suggests an infective agent That's why I only picked hoppers & there were NO young bees in this nuc yet -- pollen apr 18 should be a good clue BP was very clear that if she did not see TM then it was not there dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:20:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070426063234.03cb9fd8@together.net > MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike: With 3 deeps, the bottom 2 can be used for brood rearing, while the top deep is used for honey storage...and more inportantly...pollen storage. reply: So are you moving the pollen to the upper top deep as I have always seen in unlimited broodnests I keep the pollen is always put to the bottom, the brood up the center gut and pollen and then honey in that order to the sides, with the cap overhead to the producer to extract in active year with fall last cap kept for bees. Very seldom see pollen placed by bees themselves in upper part of unlimited broodnest. So question again: You moving it there? Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 02:39:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD = Nosema ceranae & Iflavirus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dick & All, I also want to say you did an excellent job Dick with your "Die Off" article! Best CCD article I have read yet! Dick said: >eventually you'll come to a small well-done study that cleaned up Nosema Ceranae in three treatments. >Dr Paxton has a paper coming soon in the Journal of Invertebrate Pathology that will state that it's about everywhere. As I said earlier I have not had trouble controlling nosema in my bees with fumidil ( I treat ONLY as needed according to my tests) but have noticed I have had a low level nosema each fall for the last few years. This spring I also had a low level nosema so treated. I have not had the nosema tested to see if possibly nosema ceranae. After reading the MAAREC information and seeing what Dick has posted when I get on my feet again I am going to test and see if my spring nosema treatment worked. I posted on BEE_L around two weeks ago I detected a low level nosema in package bees out of California . Those bees had fumidil in the feed can with the package. I will recheck those bees also. I did not verify with a microscope those findings but the Midgut was off colored and slightly swollen in my field test. We did call the package producer and he said the hives the bees & queens came from had been fed Fumidil before almonds. I went ahead and did another treatment with fumidil to clean up the problem hopefully. I am not happy about the price increase on Fumidil and feel the product is overpriced but only one source so we have no choice. We have always been held hostage in Fumidil pricing! I remember when a 9.5 gram bottle was around twenty bucks but was quite awhile ago! Having to spend three times the treatment price (worse scenario) adds up. Right now figuring roughly $120 a 9.5 gram bottle ( $129 plus shipping in most catalogs today)will treat approx. 120 spring hives the cost is a dollar a hive spring and fall treatment at approx. 60 hives for the same bottle ( easy number to figure) the cost per hive would be approx. $2 per hive. Looks like my cost this year the way things are going is an annual $3 per hive. If I should need three treatments (as per Dick's post) instead of one spring & fall this year (worst case scenario) my Fumidil cost could run as high as $3 a hive in spring and $9 this fall which would be $12 a hive which would effect the bottom line of profitability. Could equal my feed cost in fall ( I only feed as needed for obvious reasons but fall feeding with the last two years of drought has been necessary due to zero fall flow in our area) and could be higher than treatment cost for varroa mite! HFCS has increased in price due to the current price of corn ( corn prices last year were slightly over a dollar a 100wt. and the last I bought by the ton in February was almost $4 a 100wt.). This time last year 55% HFCS delivered by tanker in the Midwest was .17 a pound.( Several cents higher in California for reasons I have yet to understand) Today's price locally for 42% is .28 a pound . The cost is expected to continue to rise making HFCS prices double for those commercial beekeepers needing to feed bees. Most of us have switched to sucrose but sucrose has always cost about twice what we paid last year for HFCS which although I personally think is a better bee feed ( as per my April ABJ HFCS article) is still making feed costs this year almost double last year. After learning of the widespread use of sucrose by California beekeepers I had planned to spend the extra money for sucrose but again paying double for feed makes profitability harder. Also fuel cost is still rising in our area although within .20 a gallon of this time last year but expected to rise. Like I said in a post a couple days ago I doubt a $35 handout for a verifiable CCD loss will make new people rush to get into beekeeping. The above are fixed cost on the rise. I can not get away without buying bee feed, fuel or fumidil at present. On the bright side it seems the drought has ended so less feeding might be done and I have consolidated yards ( higher numbers to start) trying to save fuel. If things turn dry I can always go and reduce hive numbers in yards later but cutting the number of yards saves labor and fuel for now. I realize most on the list are hobby and the above is not a consideration but even hobby beekeepers like to keep abreast of the current situation in commercial beekeeping. Another problem effecting large operations is getting Mexican help in. It seems ( I was made aware of last week)there is a problem getting those people into the country since George Bush visited Mexico last month. The problem has been reported to me by a good source and is only effecting the largest of commercial operations so of little concern to most on the list but I have no reason to doubt the information I was passed. Lack of help is a serious concern to those using out of country help. I am on a very small beekeeping business level these days but profitability and sustainability in business is important whether serious sideline or small commercial! Beekeeping for a living is hard work! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 04:36:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD = Nosema ceranae & Iflavirus In-Reply-To: <000601c78856$7f278590$6401a8c0@NOTEBOOK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Marron wrote: > In another place it was noted that it was likely that it had been present in > France for years. A Dr Paxton has a paper coming soon in the Journal of > Invertebrate Pathology that will state that it's about everywhere. I suspect > we are just finding it now, but it's been around. > > Dick, could you clarify the "it's about everywhere". Has it always been everywhere or has it spread so now it is everywhere? Everywhere- France/Europe/world? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 05:26:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD and reuse of woodenware In-Reply-To: <000601c78856$7f278590$6401a8c0@NOTEBOOK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was handed a "Catch the Buzz" CCD update at last night Bee School dated April 26th. It says that some have put the brood boxes of CCD hives on good colonies and "in some cases" they soon began to show CCD symptoms. This has been reported by "several larger beekeepers" and witnessed by the Florida State Apiarist staff. One group of CCD brood combs was irradiated, one fumigated with acetic acid, one left alone, and one was honey supers with no brood comb left alone. They were placed on healthy colonies. All are "doing well" except the untreated brood comb colony which "appears to be declining". The group suggests that the "prudent choice may be to set this woodenware aside" and a "very bad idea" to reuse CCD comb until their tests are complete. The last paragraph says that it may look like a pathogen but there may be other factors like "pesticides in the external environment" and the investigations are ongoing. My first reaction to the report was just that, that it it was pathogens. But I remembered that other reports have some CCD colonies recovering quickly after the initial hit so there seems to be a difference here, but maybe not since most of what we hear is preliminary or second/third hand.. The thing of most interest to me is that CCD supers seemed to be fine and only brood comb was involved. Bob's observations of problems with old comb that has gone through many miticide applications came to mind. I hope the group also looks for both labeled and unlabeled miticide residue. Many pesticides are broken down quickly when exposed to sunlight and air, so you could easily lower the pesticide levels on exposed frames with the boxes that were removed and moved for treatment.. Supers are not on when miticides are applied, but they seemed to be on when CCD hit yet they seemed not to transfer CCD symptoms. If it was an external pesticide or pathogen, you would think they would. The CCD group is proceeding slowly here and that is prudent. If the re-use of woodenware and brood comb is not a common problem but isolated to a specific area, factors other than CCD could be at work. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 05:49:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD and brood In-Reply-To: <000601c78856$7f278590$6401a8c0@NOTEBOOK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the Catch the Buzz that discussed woodenware reuse there was a reminder that "the primary indicator of CCD is lots of brood but few bees and no dead bees in the hive. If you have a dead-out with dead bees but no brood, you can't blame CCD". Please correct me, but that would appear to rule out most if not all winter kill since there is not "lots of brood" during most of the winter months in the North. It would apply to spring through fall, so CCD would seem to be a disease that only hits an active colony, similar to Disappearing Disease and Fall Dwindle Disease among others. For some winter kills you can have some brood, few bees and "no dead bees" (something hard to find since there always are dead bees on the bottom board- just a matter of degree) with colonies that survive the winter with mites, especially TM. The ones that do not survive will have dead bees and no or little brood. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:59:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Catch the Buzz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline from "Catch the Buzz": > Just to repeat, the primary indicator of CCD is "lots of brood, but few bees, and no dead bees in the hive". If you have a dead-out with "dead bees but no brood", you can't blame CCD. Hmm. But what if the colony collapsed after the brood rearing shut down? Or are we to suppose that never happens? -- Peter L. Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:17:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Diotima Booraem Subject: Re: CCD = Nosema ceranae & Iflavirus In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:00 AM 4/26/2007, you wrote: >UCSF Sleuths Identify Suspects in Mystery of Vanishing Honeybees > >http://pub.ucsf.edu/today/print.php?news_id=200704251 Here is another article on the same issue. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/04/26/MNGK7PFOMS1.DTL, Having read this article, I am confused, I admit. First, the article states that this researcher used "genetic material taken from a "collapsed colony" in Merced County". Is this a typo, I wonder? Would anyone actually extrapolate data from a single hive, or even a single beeyard to a possible "cause" for CCD? If the data really is that limited, announcing this to the press as a possible cause for CCD seems to me to be remarkably premature. Maybe Nosema ceranae is an opportunistic secondary infection that was preceded by some other issue that is the real cause for CCD? The paper on the university website mentions a virus, but the sfgate article makes it sound as though the researcher, DeRisi, is fairly confident it's Nosema. (I also note DeRisi is a biochemist, not a bee researcher.) Why is he so confident? "The bees must have been loaded with this stuff" he says. But that means nothing, really, if they succumbed because of a compromised immune system. Next, we are told that "Government scientists who have been tracking the phenomenon they call Colony Collapse Disorder were skeptical, however, saying the parasite had been an early suspect in the bee die-off but that they had concluded it probably was not responsible." OK. Would love to know why they came to that conclusion, and maybe even get DeRisi's reaction to their skepticism and the reason for it, but instead we get a couple of paragraphs that hype the CCD problem, and many paragraphs on DeRisi's background and some of the fancy biochemical techniques used. Bah. I am still confused. I want to know about bees, not SARS and microarrays and shotgun sequencing. Then we are told of research done in Spain with Nosema cerana. Googling that, I find this article on Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosema_ceranae which does not actually come out and say that this parasite is the cause of CCD, but certainly implies that this is the author's viewpoint. The author suggests that the symptoms are identical. WOW! But wait.... Back to the sfgate article -- finally, they talk to an actual bee researcher, Jeffery Pettis, who says that large quantities of N. ceranis have been found in large quantities in healthy hives. Oh. Well I guess that answers one question, which is why government scientists have concluded it is not responsible for CCD. Now, I've just read this whole article and I am no less confused than I was before (though I *am* considerably better educated on Dr. DeRisi's career). But I do have questions. So I wonder if anyone here knows more about the research done in Spain, and why the author(s) of the Wikipedia article find it so compelling as a possible cause, and how other bee researchers feel about the work done there. Since I can just about guarantee I won't find those answers in any piece in the media about CCD, I thought I'd post here and see if anyone would be kind enough to reply... Regards, Diotima ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "If there is a better solution...find it" Thomas Edison Virtual Assistance: The better solution for small business. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Diotima Booraem, CPVA Virtual Executive Assistance http://www.virtualhelp.biz E-mail: diotima@virtualhelp.biz ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 19:41:28 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Mother Nature Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...there is no reason to think that the cause of Colony Collapse Disorder is "anything other than Mother Nature.'' I would challenge this point. As it has been reported, CCD has been identified only in [some] managed colonies [which are not under exclusive Mother Nature's care!]. The commercial environment and exploitation of bees puts them under greater stress than the conditions in the wild. CCD would have to be identified in feral colonies for the statement to be true. I have not heard that it has been and I looking forward to this season's colony removals from structures/trees. Here in NY suburbia, I have not heard from beekeepers that I know are good beekeepers that they have experienced unusual losses in the last 12 months. The man-influenced environment likely plays a role too in any imbalances leading to CCD. GMO crops and pesticides are potential contributors. I recently read an article that said there was 'anecdotal' evidence from farmers that, presented with both, their livestock would consume non-GMO feed before even approaching the GMO type. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 06:49:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. In-Reply-To: <361477.87275.qm@web51609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > Very seldom see pollen >placed by bees themselves in upper part of unlimited >broodnest. So question again: You moving it there? I don't move it there. The bees put it there. I've extracted that top deep before, and under the honey is pollen. Mike ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:04:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Mother Nature implicated in Honey Bee Die-Off MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The EU will allow the staement 'Produce of EU and non-EU countries' makes a joke of country of origib labelling. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- . If imports are mixed in, can the label state that it is produced in one location? > > Mike in LA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:36:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Mother Nature Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 19:41:28 GMT, waldig@netzero.com wrote: I recently read an article that said there >was 'anecdotal' evidence from farmers that, presented with both, >their livestock would consume non-GMO feed before even approaching >the GMO type. > Here in the heart of GMO country wether its legend or not the claim is made frequently that livestock will head across a pasture to avoid GMO corn stalks and feed in favor of the non GMO varieites. Would be interesting to do that "test" with honey bees comparing regular HFCS from GMO and Guacho soaked corn and if it was available HFCS from plain old corn with no seed treatments and not a GMO variety. Would the bees avoid one over the other, would any other differences in colony health etc be visible? Also any liquid sucrose is likely from sugar beets which had the seeds treated with Imidacloprid. I'm coming to the point that both HFCS and liquid sucrose is all questionable to feed bees. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:50:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD = Nosema ceranae & Iflavirus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A more extensive discussion of the UCSF finding with some interesting quotes from Jeff Pettis. I was amused by the headline "Mutant Microbe Suspected in Honeybee Dieoff" , the mainstream media just has to put an apocalyptic spin on this story no matter what. http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2007/apr/27/mutant-microbe-suspected-in-die-off- of-honeybees/ "Fueling the UCSF scientists' interest in the parasite is a recent paper, published by the Journal of Invertebrate Pathology in January, in which a team of Spanish researchers infected hives of European honeybees with Nosema ceranae. Within eight days, the colonies were wiped out. 'Historical samples' The federal government's leading honeybee scientists, however, are not ready to conclude that DeRisi has found anything significant. Jeffery Pettis, research leader for the U.S. Agriculture Department's Bee Research Laboratory in Beltsville, Md., said reports suggesting that this parasite has recently appeared in the United States are simply wrong. "There are historical samples from the mid-1990s," he said. Before then, the parasite was seldom seen outside Asia, where it favored a species of honeybee found only there. It did not cause colony collapse in Asia. Now, Pettis said, tests have shown that Nosema ceranae has displaced a related strain that had been the dominant form of the parasite in the United States, Pettis said. However, large quantities of the microbe have been found in bee colonies that are healthy, as well as in those that have collapsed, he said. Pettis said the parasite could simply be taking advantage of a newly developed weakness in the insects' immune systems. "Mostly we think of Nosema as a stress disorder of honeybees," he said. It is possible that a more virulent strain of Nosema ceranae has evolved in the United States, but Pettis doubts it. "We can't rule it out completely," he said. Evan Skowronski, senior team leader for biosciences at the Army lab and a friend of DeRisi's, said that because the stakes are high, every important lead in the search for the cause of the honeybee deaths needs to be pursued. "We're not ready to say this is it, but it is a pathogen of interest," he said. Skowronski said there is no reason to think that the cause of Colony Collapse Disorder is "anything other than Mother Nature." However, he said that any natural threat to honeybees has major implications for the United States. "This needs a high level of attention," he said. DeRisi agreed that more tests will be needed to prove or disprove the parasite's role. "In our results, the control bees did not have it, and the sick ones were loaded with the stuff," he said. "It is going to take a lot of time to figure out." Also this email between Doug McRory and Jerry Hayes is of interest to the discussion: To Doug McRory Seems that they can't find N apis in samples but they always find N ceranae. Which raises other interesting questions. Not on the CCD Working Groups short list because some CCD suffers treat with Fumidil so it may not be N ceranae as the primary cause. Thanks Jerry Hayes, States Apiarist of Florida ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:31:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Timothy C. Eisele" Subject: Re: Mother Nature In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > > Also any liquid sucrose is likely from sugar beets which had the seeds treated with Imidacloprid. > I'm coming to the point that both HFCS and liquid sucrose is all questionable to feed bees. > > I can see being concerned about pesticide use in general, but it seems to me that treatments of the *seed* should be the least of our worries. Consider: we have a tiny sugar beet seed (about 100 seeds per gram, according to the references I can find quickly, or each seed weighing about 0.01 gram), with a dusting of imidacloprid on its surface. This then grows to a sugar beet that weighs up to 2000 grams, or 200,000 times the weight of the original seed. Even if we assume that all of the seed treatment stays inside the beet, we are still diluting it by a factor of at least 200,000 by the time the seed grows to maturity. Given that there is going to be a large fraction that will stay with the seed coat (which is shed as the beet grows) and/or washes away in the rain, the dilution is going to be more like a factor of several million. This is nothing like spraying pesticide onto a field. Any contamination of the final crop by the *seed treatment* is going to be so trivial as to be undetectable. Especially since the extraction and purification of the sucrose will reduce the concentrations by a factor of another few thousand. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:53:25 +0100 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Max Watkins Organization: Vita (Europe) Ltd Subject: CCD = Nosema ceranae ? In-Reply-To: <20070426191901.RHCV8957.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net@DIODESK.virtualhelp.biz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I quite agree with the sentiments of Diotima's reply. Nosema ceranae is a virulent pathogen and there is no doubt about it, it kills bees. I talked about this parasite at the ABF conference in Kentucky two years ago; in Europe it has been found in many countries and it is associated with large numbers of hive deaths - especially where it has been most thoroughly researched, in Spain. Microscopically you cannot tell N.ceranae from N.apis. DNA analysis has to be performed. Sampling in other countries indicates that N.ceranae is widespread, being recently identified in Spain, France, Italy, Germany and other countries. Monitoring and sampling continues and my company, Vita, is helping with that. Nosema ceranae infection can kill colonies but I don't think there is any evidence so far that says categorically that this infection is the real and only killer. Is it the "final straw" polishing off the bees once they have already been severely weakened by something else or is it a very potent pathogen which overcomes healthy bees in one fell swoop? It is certainly a problem which the bees could do without and although we are in R&D with a safe alternative that might help fight or prevent these infections, Nosema ceranae on its own has yet to be proved as THE cause of CCD. Extrapolation from such a small data pool in this latest study is not feasible. More sampling and analysis is needed before an accurate judgement can be made. Personally, I believe "CCD" is an effect of several interacting factors, which may differ in expression from place to place. You are very fortunate in the US to have the back-up and resources of the Apiary Inspectors of America and the USDA working on the case. From what we see it's clear they are committed to finding an answer and are doing a great job collecting as much relevant information as possible. In Europe, in general, because of the geography and politics there isn't that coordinated network that you have but we do have a Working Group examining the prevention of bee losses in Europe which aims to do that. Our researchers too are struggling to find solutions. Let's hope we can determine the culprit(s) soon so that fewer bee colonies will have to perish. Best to All, Max Dr Max Watkins Director Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke Hampshire RG21 7NE UK Tel.: +44 (0)1256 473 177 Fax: +44 (0)1256 473 179 Mobile: +44 (0) 7767 815 370 e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com web: http://www.vita-europe.com Skype: maxwatkins ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:54:15 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Mother Nature Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Also any liquid sucrose is likely from sugar beets which had the seeds treated with Imidacloprid. Is most of the sucrose sugar sold in the US derived from sugar cane or sugar beets. I know in Europe sugar beets are king. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:54:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Catch the Buzz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, > Just to repeat, the primary indicator of CCD is "lots of brood, but few bees, and no dead bees in the hive". If you have a dead-out with "dead bees but no brood", you can't blame CCD.. Maybe but maybe not. Is the above the *only* indicator when we really do not have a smoking gun? The above was the way CCD was explained to us at the ABF convention. Lance Sundberg said his first semi load to crash were very strong with lots of brood and ALL dead within two weeks of arriving in California WITH the CCD team definition of the CCD symptoms.. The above is NOT what the reported case in Missouri (not my bees) looked like but the beekeeper thought because he had such a big (and fast) die off he must have had some CCD. He found some abandoned brood in hives but due to drought all the Missouri bees shut down all brood rearing early last August. Regardless of CCD he dropped from 650 hives to a hundred which is a huge drop in numbers. He was picking up over fifty hives dead a week last fall at the same time the others were having problems. Myself and a police detective/beekeeper can verify he had the losses if needed. However those boxes have now got bees back in them which may cause an indemnity payoff to be for future losses. I have spent time trying to find out if the old program *WHEN STARTED* was retroactive. I remember the program but never collected and so have forgotten if those pesticide kills before the program started were retroactive. Until set in concrete the whole indemnity thing is based in *rumor* but I have heard from a reliable source that one national group wants to go back over two years. The survey is a tool the CCD team feels it needs but much of the latest CCD diagnosis on the survey is based on a beekeeper diagnosis. I personally think the "Catch the Buzz" symptoms should be easy to understand and use as a diagnosis tool. I have now got reliable information that both national groups have had many conference calls concerning CCD and the package replacement so word is moving through the industry fast so in my opinion now it will be harder for the CCD team to rely on the new survey information. The reason I refer to the early reports and information like Dick's article for the best source of information on the problem named CCD. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:12:50 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Mother Nature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Hi All Tim discussed pesticides applied by seed dressing and commented: > This is nothing like spraying pesticide onto a field. I'm not so sure about this, as seed dressing pesticide can be more or less neat, whereas sprayed active ingredient will be diluted before spraying, then, assuming no direct hit, possibly diluted through the plant before it reaches pollen or nectar. So both could be dangerous, but yes, small seeds may give less risky crops. The US had an unusually hot and dry summer last year. Murray mentioned the likely suppression of late summer brood and the lack of young bees for the winter. Weather stress could lead to increased disease problems directly, and the elderly nature of the bee population going into winter could exacerbate the problem. But might the hot dry summer make pesticides worse too? In a hot summer bees will be seeking out water to keep the hive cool. As far as I know they will spread the water about on the comb where it will evaporate. The water they collect will itself be evaporating and concentrating any impurities. Where were they collecting the water they needed last summer? If the main losers from CCD were large migratory operations, were they in locations where their bees would rely on irrigation water? Might the water used for irrigation itself be contaminated with pesticide? Or might the irrigation water be deliberately laced with neonicotinamides?? See here for ground water contamination in New York State: http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/insect-mite/fenitrothion-methylpara/imidacloprid/imidacloprid_let_1004.html And for the deliberate use of imidacloprid directly in irrigation water, try Googling for 'imidacloprid' and 'chemigation'. It appears to be an increasingly popular practice. Opinions anyone? Are CCD studies considering the possibility that contamination might be pesticides on dry comb rather than in honey or pollen stores? all the best Gavin. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 15:33:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Mother Nature Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:31:42 -0400, Timothy C. Eisele wrote: >. Any contamination >of the final crop by the *seed treatment* is going to be so trivial as >to be undetectable. Especially since the extraction and purification of >the sucrose will reduce the concentrations by a factor of another few >thousand. Thanks for your input and I see how you come to the ppm conclusion. Since Imidacloprid is a systemic insecticide when used as seed treatment, would not the material be inside the plant and not affected by rain etc? Can it bind on a molecular level in the beet? When you look at Atrazine for instance I have read I believe its .01 ppm can deform a frog. Not being able to comprehend the differences between atrazine and imidacloprid how do we know that some ppm of imidacloprid does not contribute to non-lethal effects on honeybees? Escpecially when we understand how Imidacloprid effects insect nervous systems and learning functions. Plus you wonder where else can our bees in farm country pick up other traces of Imidacloprid from fruit, corn, canola sunflowers and even lawn treatments. At what level is a cumulative trace of Imidacloprid a problem? What about interactions with other chemicals ? Their is some research that says fungicides and Imidacloprid applied simultaneously can magnify the lethal nature of imidacloprid. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:52:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: Catch the Buzz In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Peter said: Hmm. But what if the colony collapsed after the brood rearing shut down? Or are we to suppose that never happens? Medhat: This issue of dead colonies with dead bees and brood /no brood in the hives, especially in Northern Stats and Canada was brought up at the workshop. The definition of CCD needs to be revised or become regionalized. This confounding factor of bees in hives and presence/absence of brood will be sorted out. Scientists are waiting on results from sample analyses and cause of death associated with CCD is defined. It will be good to report descriptions of the colony death status and which region. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:07:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Mother Nature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin Ramsay wrote: > See here for ground water contamination in New York State: > http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/insect-mite/fenitrothion-methylpara/imidacloprid/imidacloprid_let_1004.html and asked > Opinions anyone? My first reaction was that I am so glad that I do not have to live there. Then I wondered about the levels of contamination here in the UK of which I might not be aware. Do any of us know the whole truth? Peter Edwards ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:44:24 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: more CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 26/04/2007 04:37:31 GMT Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: TM has always shown symptoms in my bees. Hoppers are common and found as far a fifty feet from the hives. Usually they show wing damage but sometimes only hoppers or crawlers. Some even stagger or tremble. ".....the notable entomologist Imms (1907) ......differentiated the disease from paralysis because of the lack of a dark appearance and trembly motion often alleged at that time to be characteristic of bees with paralysis." ".... Rennie et al (1921) had observed that many [TM] infested colonies apeared to be healthy and that many individual bees severely infested with mites also appeared to be healthy and foraging normally, whereas uninfested bees in the same colony often showed severy signs of the disease." Quotations from a lecture delivered by Dr leslie Bailey to the Central Association of Beekeepers on 14th October 2000 and entitled 'The Isle of Wight Disease'. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:55:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Harvesting Varroa & Infesting Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, I’m searching for procedures for harvesting mites and how to infest a specific bee. I have purchased some high end video equipment (well, hi end to me anyways) ;), and want to video tape a grooming event in one of my colonies that are exhibiting the trait. I don't know any good ways to do this,,, but,,, I plan on harvesting my varroa from capped drone cells, and choosing mature female varroa from the bunch. If these varroa are placed on a bee, how soon till they begin feeding? OR do you think that it is necessary for a varroa to begin feeding in order for the bee to ‘solicite’ grooming? Also curious if varroa tend to stay on the bee you place them on, and should I wait some time before reintroducing the bee to the colony? Also, I want to mark the bee with queen paint so I can track her easier with the camera, do you think this would pose a problem for the validity of the experiment? If so, I think I may be able to work around this problem as I discovered last season that the grooming bees are consumed in the event and can be carefully scooped off the comb and into a container, and they usually continue with the grooming sequence and fly back to the hive when finished. Anybody have experience with these types of experiments? If you could please send reply 'off list' I would appreciate it, so as not to use up archive space, and will be happy to share the video sequence deptecting the grooming of a mite with you if I should be so lucky to capture the event. Thanks in advance, for the help! Joe Waggle Derry, PA “Bees Gone Wild Apiaries” FeralBeeProject.com http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 19:42:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD = Nosema ceranae & Iflavirus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Diotima & All, We are all confused by CCD. A big problem has been the releases to the news media. I think at times CCD has a life of its own and many forget researchers are supposed to be looking for a solution FOR BEEKEEPERS by this fall to prevent a repeat of fall 2006. Right now you have got a meeting coming up of 60 so- called bee experts which as can be seen from the news releases can not agree on much of anything! Also they have not provided advice on what beekeepers are supposed to do when hives start crashing or what type of management of treatments might be useful in preventing CCD or turning the problem around if this fall is a repeat of fall 2006. In 3 short months the moment of truth will be here in the Midwest. Myself and other beekeepers have decided on several courses of action to possibly turn the effects of CCD around. >though the researcher, DeRisi, is fairly confident it's Nosema. Nosema has to be considered. Also a problem most beekeepers can deal with if they choose to spend the money for meds and treat. >But that means nothing, really, if they succumbed because of a compromised immune system. Only healthy bees have immune systems not compromised. Its kind of like which came first "the chicken or the egg". Did the many problems the CCD team find cause the compromised immune system or was the immune system compromised from some problem and the things the CCD team found then manifest ? Beekeepers have moved on but many are still trying to figure which came first. >, they talk to an actual bee researcher, Jeffery Pettis, who says that large quantities of N. ceranis have been found in large quantities in healthy hives. I have spoke with Jeff Pettis many times and the above does not sound like his wording. If the bees from healthy hives were found to be infected with N. ceranaes then the hives would *not* be healthy would they and treatment would be recommended by Jeff. Nosema IS SUSPECT in CCD mainly because nosema kills the adult bees in the last two weeks of life. That would explain the missing foragers. Controlling nosema is a big deal with a honey producer because the last two weeks of a foragers life is when they gather the honey crop. Actually I am shocked that up until the Dec. 15th. report none of the beekeepers reporting CCD had used fumidil or even had an idea of nosema levels. Without finding and testing the missing bees then it would be hard to say what the nosema load had been a few weeks earlier in those CCD die off hives. Commercial beekeepers which ignore nosema load in their apiaries are asking for problems sooner or later. My guess would have been that most of the commercial beekeepers with CCD would either have: 1. tested often for nosema and treated when needed ( my method!) or 2. like many in our area simply treat once a year in fall. Not watching nosema load in their bees makes those CCD beekeepers "bee havers" in my book. I think George Immire would agree! Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:32:33 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Harvesting Varroa & Infesting Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I’m searching for procedures for harvesting mites and how to infest a specific bee. I'd imagine dusting a hive with sugar over a screened board would yield many mites within a short time. You'd rinse the sugar dust off the mites afterwards. Presented with a bee mites go to it like a magnet. I once discovered a mite on a drone larva and tried to catch it. As soon as a worker bee came along, the mite run up onto it. >>...choosing mature female varroa from the bunch. Is it easy to tell a female from a male? >>If these varroa are placed on a bee, how soon till they begin feeding? I'd think that if you keep the collected mites alone for an hour or two, they should get hungry then. >>OR do you think that it is necessary for a varroa to begin feeding in order for the bee to ‘solicite’ grooming? I am not sure but heard they are only a few bee strains that actively groom. I recall that you've seen grooming in your bees. >>Also curious if varroa tend to stay on the bee you place them on, and should I wait some time before reintroducing the bee to the colony? I tried several times to pluck mites off of bees. These critters run fast and hide in every nook and crevice on the bee. It's very difficult to extract them without damaging the bee. It's easier to get stung before you get the mite. :) >>...they usually continue with the grooming sequence and fly back to the hive when finished. Do they leave damaged mites behind in the jar? It that's the case, you've got some great bees. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 08:39:14 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I am running a couple of hives this year with 3-deep broodnests (the >'unlimited broodnest'). I have a couple of questions for folks here who've >reported good success with this set-up: As is often the case, there is some good discussion in the archives that covers points that have not come up this time around. Try this search: (triple brood) OR (three brood) AND excluder with the Substring Search option checked. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:07:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: speculative etiology -Imid & N. ceranae In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is completely speculative based on a what I've read & my experience with bees in the lab. A number of years ago we were working with bees in the lab- testing dose mortality on recently emerged workers against Beauveria bassiana -an entomopatthogenic fungus. Bees being beneficial--we were testing potential for infection at doses a bee might encounter in the field. We figured that this fungus would be inactivated at normal hive temperatures. I was unable to infect bees at field doses but the longer I held bees away from the colony the higher Nosema levels became. Every bee, upon dissection, had a certain level which increased the longer they were held in an incubator below hive temperature. So if worker bees get Nosema through tropholaxis upon emergence, meet an environmental, chemical or multiple stresses this would initiate high levels & sicken bees---or produce the onset of disease. OK now we have a stressed colony --add a small level of imidacloprid (PPM or PPB) which has been reported to synergize with some pathogenic fungi. If it were to weaken bees & synergize with N. ceranae (a fungus) it would provide a further opportunity to grow & cause disease. Only young as yet uninfected bees would remain. Larvae might be ok--I admit that I do not know the specifics of Nosema--do larvae become infected or is it a adult bee disease? Depending on where bees are (or where they have been) certain bees or apiaries may end up with collections of Imid which would cause increased synergy. This might result in the variability amongst sites & affected colonies. Now the synergy with certain fungi has been shown--it needs to be verified & the mechanism needs to be elucidated. In our lab we are trying to utilize this synergy to reduce duel treatment costs. Can we cut the use of the Bb in half or 1/10 by pairing it with an insecticide? This may prove to have negative non-target effects in the wild! Mike Griggs FLBC ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:53:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Harvesting Varroa & Infesting Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit J. Waggle wrote: > Hello All, > > I’m searching for procedures for harvesting mites and how to infest a > specific bee. Your idle amusements are a waste of time, didn't your mother teach you that Joe? :) > I don't know any good ways to do this,,, but,,, > I plan on harvesting my varroa from capped drone cells, and choosing > mature female varroa from the bunch. You're doing pioneering work here Joe. I do know that your window of opportunity to harvest a mature female from a capped cell is going to be short. I think you'd want to be looking for emerging drones and then you're likely to get the foundress mite and 1 or 2 of her mature offspring, and some number of immature females. More than a few days before emergence and the female offspring might not be mature enough to survive. You might be just as successful putting a screened bottom on a hive and periodically checking it for naturally fallen mites that are still crawling around. I think that's what I'd do. I have heard that mites transfer a lot. I don't know if that's true. Their phoretic phase lasts from 3 to 10 days during which time they feed, usually tucked in between the abdominal segments on the ventral side of the bee. They're hard to spot in this location. They also won't feed on a dead bee for very long. I'll bet, if you could locate bees with feeding varroa on them (easier said than done), put them in a jar and kill them (as humanely as possible please!) then put some healthy young nurse bees in the jar that the mites would jump on them like a dog on a bone.. > Also, I want to mark the bee with queen paint so I can track her easier > with the camera, do you think this would pose a problem for the validity > of the experiment? I can't see how unless someone were to argue that the grooming bees were really trying to remove the marking paint instead of the mite, then your carefully orchestrated and photographically documented experiment would prove nothing! Hah! That might happen here on Bee-L, they're a tough crowd :) > If so, I think I may be able to work around this problem as I discovered > last season that the grooming bees are consumed in the event and can be > carefully scooped off the comb and into a container, and they usually > continue with the grooming sequence and fly back to the hive when finished. Presumably leaving behind a beaten and bloodied varroa mite.. This might be a good approach because I think your biggest challenge would be to initiate grooming, or having to wait for grooming to be initiated, in a controlled enviroment where you can observe and document the event. > Anybody have experience with these types of experiments? Not me Joe, but I've seen the kind of grooming behavior you're talking exhibited by my bees from time to time- on the landing board of the hive. I've thought of photographing the event. Now that I know you're going to do it, I won't bother! George- --------------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:54:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Harvesting Varroa & Infesting Bees In-Reply-To: <20070428.053238.29474.2584942@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: >>> I’m searching for procedures for harvesting mites and how to infest > a specific bee. > > I'd imagine dusting a hive with sugar over a screened board would > yield many mites within a short time. You'd rinse the sugar dust off > the mites afterwards. I think that might be hard on the little darlings- both the sugar which supposedly impairs their ability to hang on to a bee as well as the rinsing part. Not sure how' you'd do that. >>> ...choosing mature female varroa from the bunch. > > Is it easy to tell a female from a male? The males are smaller, white, and never make it out of the cell alive. Immature females are lighter in color and might make it out of the cell or they might not, but in either case they don't survive long so if you've got a live one on your hands, it's a mature female :) George- ---------------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:07:05 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Harvesting Varroa & Infesting Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I’m searching for procedures for harvesting mites and how to infest a > specific bee... and want to video tape a grooming event in one of my > colonies that are exhibiting the trait. You might like to contact some of the USDA lab people. They have been doing these things routinely and are happy to show off what they know, especially at field days, and pretty helpful by email. See http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2003/diary011003.htm for pictures of John Harbo giving beekeepers a demo of his varroa observation setup a few years back. Pretty well anybody at Baton Rouge lab should be able to give pointers, and I am sure that most of the other labs have dabbled at least in this sort of thing. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 18:28:30 +0200 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: A solution? http://www.ecbc.army.mil/about/features.htm#bees \vov ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 13:02:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070427064753.01cd7f60@together.net > MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIke: I don't move it there. The bees put it there. I've extracted that top deep before, and under the honey is pollen. Reply: so you tell me you are extracting combination honey/pollen cell frames? that the bees put there? Why? Don't you have frames of honey seperate to extract above the cap area? Why extracting premium honey/pollen cell combined frames that are perfect for only brooding and thus broodnest area? You that tight for honey? Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:17:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. In-Reply-To: <20070428200201.65791.qmail@web51602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > You >that tight for honey? >Dee Yeah Dee. Tight for honey. It just happens some times. That's all. Mike ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************