From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:53:56 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E851348754 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFkpIZ016612 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:17 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0705A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 471101 Lines: 10792 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:48:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: chemical free storing supers + thanks for queen marking info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Wrote: > John Horton tells us he has been successful at avoiding wax moth damage by > storing shallows 'staggered'. John, to help us understand: (1) do you > store indoors or outdoors? If indoors, what is your light source, if any. > If artificial, how many hours a day? (2) Do you have sustained nighttime > temperatures below 28 degrees F? If so, for approximately how many weeks? > (3) Do you store past your 'frost-free' date? If so, how many weeks past > such date? > > Thanks, > Lloyd 1)I store them indoors in an old block building that seems kindve damp at times. I have a friend, Charlie Cornileson, who has been keeping bees for over half a century who I THINK stores them outdoors-but semi enclosed to prevent rain etc. The guy who taught me this- Al Norton-learned it from some LA (lower Alabama) beekeeper years ago. 2) My only light sources are 2- roughly 4 x 2 foot windows(ttl 16 square feet per room)...I have them in rooms facing south and north...about 500 supers/room in these roughly 12 x 18 foot rooms. 3) I have stored before and after frost free dates in both autumn and spring.....my best memory, Lloyd, is that I have put them on well before frost(month or so) in late summer at times when I would have had a cobweb meltdown within a week or so in an abandoned hive in the field. I am fairly sure I have kept some of the medium supers over practically the whole summer with no problem, as I tend not to use them anymore. 4) As a rule I dont use excluders....yes many of my supers have plenty of cocoons(Alabama small cell) Do a test case See for yourself !!!!! For queen marking comments: Thanks to all for the recommendations-feel a little better about Testors now-except I have used the paint pen rather than the brush. Gonna try the uniposca. Thanks for the queen handling technique Bob, will attempt it as I am not very good with handling them..By the way I have been praying for your speedy recovery. Best to all John Horton ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:50:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: High end video equipment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit allen dick wrote: >You probably know this, but a typical, fairly cheap (>$200) mini camera will >take pretty decent macro video these days - with sound. Hello Allen! We looked at many of the smaller cameras, although many of the these cameras had most features suited for my purpose, I had difficulty finding a cheaper camera with all the features I thought were essential. I felt I needed at least 6 megapixels SLR (single lens reflex) With SLR, the same lens is used for viewing and taking pictures, and is essential for close up photography for correctly centering the object in the picture field. AVI (Audio Video Interleave) can be played on Media player So I bought the Fuji S9100 9 megapixel, wide 10.7x optical zoom, AVI, with a macro focus range 1- 100cm I looked at the camera you mention (canon SD600), it is a excellent camera. But I was concerned that because it was not an SLR, when in macro mode for extreme close-ups, this potentially can cause the photo lens to be recording an area other than what you are looking at thru the view finder lens. But it is a great camera, and I would have bought it had it been an SLR. The fuji S9100 is rather bulky, but had the features I needed. >Other uses? Well, I take pictures of newspaper articles, pages in books, my >computer screen (error messages, airline reservations, to-do lists), Do I detect a 'bee photography article' in the works? :) Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Derry, PA “Bees Gone Wild Apiaries” FeralBeeProject.com http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:24:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Harvesting Varroa & Infesting Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris Slade wrote: ..My memory says that the damage - typically the groove in the carapace that >looks as if it might have been made by bee mandibles - would have been made >by cleaners disposing of mites that have died for other reasons. Hello Chris! You have probably seen the nice photos of mite damage by James. It is fun to look at the different mite damage and try and explain what may have happened. The photo depicting a mite with identical mandible indentations on the mite carapace (IMO) would be more suggestive of a bee grasping a living mite that was adhering to a bee or another object. Whereas, indent on the top and bottom might be suggestive of a bee picking up a dead mite off the floor, as one might pick up a coin. Mites with several legs bitten off would be more suggestive of a bee purposely manipulating a mite in order to destroy it, and this would show ‘intention to destroy’ as opposed to simple damage done in the process of removing debris. So does the evidence really support that it was done by house cleaners? Perhaps, it may be difficult to say for sure either way. However, I >now recall that last year I was shown a few seconds of fuzzy digital camera >video taken by Dr Rodger Dewhurst of an ambulant mite showing such damage. Rodger was so very kind to share some of his fascinating work with me concerning grooming mites, a topic great interest to me. I’m not sure, but I’m assuming it was in confidence so I don’t speak in detail about it. I keep meaning to ask if the info is ok to share with others and if he has anything new on the subject to send my way. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Derry, PA “Bees Gone Wild Apiaries” FeralBeeProject.com http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:28:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: 3 frame observation hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I am in search of a three-frame observation hive. > They are easy to build, heres my portable Ob hive: http://new.photos.yahoo.com/naturebee/photo/294928803752007566/76 http://new.photos.yahoo.com/naturebee/photo/294928803752005987/75 Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Derry, PA “Bees Gone Wild Apiaries” FeralBeeProject.com http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:57:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. Comments: To: allen dick In-Reply-To: <003f01c78b80$92f716d0$0101a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen: Dunno. More and more we are seeing it in all USA states and several foreign countries so I cannot really say if your list is right or just ???? Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:25:18 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Dunno. More and more we are seeing it in all USA states and > several foreign countries so I cannot really say if your > list is right or just ???? Or complete, for that matter. I left off a few items. Seeing as you question my list and, I therefore assume, are more in touch with the facts, please tell us (rough estimate) how many 1.) migratory pollinators 2.) commercially successful beekeepers with over 500 hives 3.) non-Africanized beekeepers fall into that category? And for how many successful years so far? Can you name names? Lots of names, and names of beekeepers who do the heavy lifting in honey production and pollination? In light of the size of the industry, are the numbers you can provide a significant portion at present? If so, what percent of the beekeepers and of the commercial hives in the US, to your thinking, fit this category? How many went to the almonds? Just to make sure we are using the same measurements: by commercial, I mean hives run profitably and used to provide the primary (sole?) means of support to the beekeepers, their families and employees, and their banks. I don't mean hives operated by those who have significant outside and alternate means of support or who are just starting up and have no track record. Don't get me wrong, but from what I see, there are many more posers out there than actual successes when it comes to operating without at least some chemical assistance. Hopefully, the day when most beekeepers can exchange brood and super comb is coming back, but, for the vast majority, it is not here yet (or shouldn't be). Maybe you can prove me wrong with some solid numbers, but so far, I have just heard brave assurances and few if any names -- or real numbers. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:38:08 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of course I forgot to include beekeepers who are running the Russian bee in my latest list. As I understand it, many are able to run these bees without much, if any, treatment. I don't know how many are actually running them commercially, but do know a sideliner or two. Maybe Charley is reading this and can comment, and also, mention what cell sizes most people are using with Russian bees. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 07:51:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Mc Cool Subject: cage or not In-Reply-To: <002a01c78b74$820855c0$0dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 05:10:52PM -0500, Bob Harrison wrote: > I can catch a queen , mark her and release her in the time its taken to > type this sentence. Sometimes I cage them before resubmitting to colony, sometimes I dab on a blob of honey. Is there any need to cage them ? -- Thanks ____________________ Joe Mc Cool Snark, currently LEYC 028 37548074, 07802572441 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:35:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Harvesting Varroa & Infesting Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All > Dave Cushman was there too and may wish to come in and amplify what I > recall. My observation and recall are not any better than Chris, I was rather taken aback by the statement, as I instantly saw that much work being pursued by several groups in UK, may be flawed or wasted. However the statement was made with strong conviction by a guy who I have respect for as a diligent and persistent worker. So as far as I am concerned there is doubt to be cast on the work done originally by Friedrich Ruttner concerning mite damage. (Which will become a web page sometime in the future.) Having said that, there are things that are not explained if the damage is completely post mortem, in particular the escalating nature of what we have called mite damaging behaviour within a colony and the fact that we can breed for a higher incidence of it. So like many other things, the more we find out... The more we realise that we do not know. More work needs to be done and past data (slides of damaged mites) need to be re-examined using sharper statistical tools to analyse the visual defects observed so that the pattern of defect can be attributed to particular actions carried out by the bees. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 06:30:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. In-Reply-To: <20070430.045635.18248.2589486@webmail05.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > From what I've >read, you get a bumper crop with 3 deeps without an excluder. I don't use excluders. Rather, I super, reverse on Dandelion, and super, super, super. Bumper crops are made not just because of using 3 deeps. Using 3 deeps with a punky queen will never lead to bumper crops. Also, if the flow isn't there, you'll never get a bumper crop. It all comes down to the same thing as keeping bees in 2 deeps...1/3 management, 1/3 genetics, and 1/3 location. All must be good to produce your bumper crop. > And >they say that, if you engage in frame checkerboarding, there is very >little swarming. Even with older queens. Don't know about checkerboarding. Never did it, probably never will. Good management, and proper supering will solve most of your swarming problems. Mike ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 07:07:58 -0400 Reply-To: Rick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Subject: Black and Blue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Something I haven't noticed before. My partner got stung about 15 times on the inner leg and reacted not by swelling but by turning blue. Ive seen bruising around the welt of a sting before but this was her whole inner leg. There was no other reaction, has anyone ever seen this sort of thing before. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:24:23 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: 3 frame observation hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I am in search of a three-frame observation hive. You can also try Brushy Mountain and Betterbee. Does anyone know which race of bees is most adaptable to the conditions in observation hives (least propolizing, least swarming, not-so-large-but-stable population etc.)? Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 00:36:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Chuck_johnson?= Subject: 3-frame observation hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In Rossman Catalog 4-frame observation hive. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 01:32:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Marking Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>Marla Spivak likes the testors paint ......with a brush<<< I agree but use a "finishing nail" rather than a brush, the "dimple" = reservoir makes a nice neat round dot. Your preferred size nail driven = into a small block of wood for a handle works well. If you have a spare = lid with a hole the size of the nail drilled in it excess paint stays in = the bottle. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 01:54:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Joel_Govostes?= Subject: Three-deep broodnests. Storing supers without chemicals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit After about mid July here in eastern MA, staggering the extracted supers outside seems to work like a charm. It may have something to do with the light entering, but I suspect it has more to do with the abundance of yellow jackets (especially Vespula germanica). They seem strongly attracted to the wet combs and will be seen entering and exiting the stacks of supers in increasingly large numbers until frost, and even beyond. Wax moth larvae probably don't have much of a chance with so many wasps around. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 08:24:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Factory farmed honey bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Factory farmed honey bees? Despite continual admonitions from more levels heads, various groups around the world are each trying to make a case for their own special interests. We have heard from the NO GMO groups, the anti-cell phone clubs, the ban corn syrup faction, etc. Now so-called organic beekeepers are rallying and trying to make a case against the "factory farmed honey beekeepers" as the real culprits. I would think that, as beekeepers, they would have more sense, good will and camaraderie. QUOTED: > While no one is certain why honey bee colonies are collapsing, factory farmed honey bees are more susceptible to stress from environmental sources than organic or feral honey bees. Most people think beekeeping is all natural but in commercial operations the bees are treated much like livestock on factory farms. > I'm on an organic beekeeping email list of about 1,000 people, mostly Americans, and no one in the organic beekeeping world, including commercial beekeepers, is reporting colony collapse on this list. The problem with commercial operations is pesticides used in hives to fumigate for varroa mites and antibiotics are fed to the bees to prevent disease. Hives are hauled long distances by truck, often several times during the growing season, to provide pollination services to industrial agriculture crops, which further stresses the colonies and exposes them to agricultural pesticides and GMOs. > Commercial beekeeping today is just another cog in the wheel of industrial agriculture – necessary because pesticides and habitat loss are killing native pollinators, and vast tracks of monoculture crops aren't integrated into the natural landscape. In an organic Canada, native pollinators would flourish and small diversified farms would keep their own natural bees for pollination and local honey sales. The factory farm aspects of beekeeping, combined with an onslaught of negative environmental factors, puts enough stress on the colonies that they are more susceptible to dying out. * * * An example of real solid research: out of 1000 emailers, not one reported colony collapse to the organic bee list. Boy, that proves it. Probably never lost a single hive, having no idea why it failed. I wish I could say that. Of course our author is new to beekeeping and undoubtedly has not met any of the real decent beekeepers that keep bees in one location, don't move them at all, are not anywhere near large scale farming (I could name dozens here in Upstate NY). Even before CCD hit the news some of these people experienced losses up to fifty percent and had no real explanation other than a "bad winter". I have seen vanishing bees many times and it was usually in untreated hives. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 13:43:54 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: cage or not MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Mc Cool asked: > Sometimes I cage them before resubmitting to colony > Is there any need to cage them ? I hold queens for clipping and marking under a press-in cage. Use tweezers to grab a wing, then clip with dressmakers' snips (like minature sheep shears). Then mark and immediately remove the cage. Never had any problems and I have many two and three year old queens (one going into her fourth year) with the original paint mark. I started using the cage because I read that if you handle queens you can put the scent from the last one on to the next one you handle - and she could then be attacked. Bob might comment on this as he does so many that way. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:11:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: 10/lbs per month of NY pollen Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Is there anyone on the list who could & would like to supply 10lbs/ month of NY State derived pollen? This will be used as a homeopathic treatment for horses! New one for me! There are actually companies that supply pollen for horses at about $10/lb so this is about what it would be worth to the supplier ( maybe a bit more because of pollen source requirements ?). If you are interested contact me off list & I will turn this over to you! Mike Griggs ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 13:31:01 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: cage or not Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Sometimes I cage them before resubmitting to colony, sometimes I dab on a blob of honey. Is there any need to cage them ? I have not seen the need for it. I have the frame out with the queen on it. I pluck the queen off, mark her with white out, wait 15 sec. for the paint to dry a bit, and place the queen back on the frame. The bees immediately orient towards the queen [presumably not liking the new smell] but I've never seen bees turn aggressive towards the queen because of the marking. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 07:49:08 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Factory farmed honey bees? > > Despite continual admonitions from more levels heads, various groups > around the world are each trying to make a case for their own special > interests... Now so-called organic beekeepers are rallying and trying to > make a case against the "factory farmed honey beekeepers" as the real > culprits. I would think that, as beekeepers, they would have more sense, > good will and camaraderie. I didn't think that article was worth a comment, since there were obvious and deliberate untruths, but maybe I'll say something, and that is that there is an awful lot of intellectual dishonesty going around. People see what they want to see, and some twist anything to prove their pet theory. Others dig deeper, and ponder what they observe, I applaud those on this list who question, demand proof, and expect numbers. Sometimes it hurts to be challenged, and to have to adjust beliefs, but, ultimately, it is far more costly to operate on the basis of wishes or illusions. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:55:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: stored supers (relating to 3 deeps) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Are you talking about stored supers? Are you >saying that you don't have trouble with wax moths in your stored combs, >except if they had brood in them? Yes, that's exactly what I was saying/thinking. I assumed that that was an almost universally accepted truth, and that basically every commercial beekeeper at least knew that that was an option. Was I mistaken in that assumption? (To be technically precise, the only two exceptions I can think to make is if honey combs are stored together with former brood combs, then the honey combs may go down with the brood combs, and if there's pollen in the honey combs, they may be susceptible then, too.) I generally store my supers (dry, not sticky) stacked up tight in a storage building that stays pretty much at outdoor temperatures (here in the North Carolina foothills) from mid-August to late April. Some surplus supers have been stored the same way year round. I do separate out frames with very much pollen in them. I've really never had any trouble at all doing things this way. I know other sideline and full-time beekeepers that do the same. It seemed to me like a pretty wide-spread and well accepted practice. Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 13:53:35 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Bumper crops are made not just because of using 3 deeps. Using 3 deeps with a punky queen will never lead to bumper crops. I was reading Walt Wright's articles (www.knology.net/~k4vb/all% 20walt%20articles.htm) suggested by folks here. [I am trying this for myself this year.] He used 3-deeps to raise and hold lots of bees, without inducing swarming due to congestion, PRIOR to supering at the start of the honey flow. When supers went on at the start of the honey flow, the many foragers would right away fill the super above the broodnest without congesting the broodnest. The reported honey yields were much greater than from conventional set-ups. I find the concept very interesting and I am looking forward to my results. >>It all comes down to the same thing as keeping bees in 2 deeps...1/3 management, 1/3 genetics, and 1/3 location. All must be good to produce your bumper crop. I would add weather to this list. Last year it was cold and wet during the black locust bloom by me and I got very little locust honey. >>I don't know about checkerboarding. Never did it, probably never will. Good management, and proper supering will solve most of your swarming problems. The primary goal of checkerboarding is to increase the brood area [and consequently the number of foragers]. Inserting empty comb in between frames of brood during the spring expansion phase, will make the colony develop at a much faster rate. I've proven this to myself several years ago. The checkerboarded hives were boiling with bees compared to the ones left alone. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:21:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Of course I forgot to include beekeepers who are running the Russian bee in my latest list. As I understand it, many are able to run these bees without much, if any, treatment. And, of course, I forgot about those who are using non-contaminating chemicals like formic and oxalic. Since we are talking about the days when things were simpler and combs from the brood boxes could be interchanged with the super combs without worry, I suppose they qualify in that regard, if not in the rest of the criteria. As for going back to the carefree days when we didn't have the expense and inconvenience of having to schedule around treatments or monitor for tracheal and varroa mites -- in addition to having to worry about comb contamination -- in North America, I don't think many commercial beekeepers are anywhere near there yet. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:31:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit allen wrote: >> Factory farmed honey bees? >I didn't think that article was worth a comment, since there were obvious >and deliberate untruths Look, if I thought it would work, I would be the first and foremost practitioner of "organic" beekeeping. In this area, Upstate NY, I have never seen a colony survive that wasn't treated in a timely fashion. Even if you are late with treatment, the chance of survival is drastically reduced. If there is anybody out there within three hours driving time of my house (Ithaca, NY) that has colonies that have survived more than two years without chemicals of any kind, I would like to see them. You can write to me off list. I will photograph the hives and write an article about them for the bee journal, and eat my hat. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:28:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Marking Queens /really simple MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An excellent product is made by Elmers Products Inc. Columbus Ohio found in an art supply place "Painters" Opaque paint Marker it's permanent , acid free. fine or medium point will do the trick I use a queen depressor- a foam disk with a hole in it and a handle -works like a charm Walter Ontario ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:05:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Nosema ceranae In-Reply-To: <01dd01c789af$4481fc40$0201a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all, I have read on several occasions that resistance to fumagillin in Nosema apis will not occur. Where / when I read this is immaterial as my question is - Is there any truth in the above, and if so, why ? With a potential for increased "preventive" treatment procedures using fumagillin against Nosema ceranae, I would like to have this sorted and tucked into the memory bank. Regards, Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:32:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Black and Blue In-Reply-To: <5521099.1178017678430.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rick: Yes, it's more a woman thing and more on inner legs between knees and Hips, especially when old pants are worn and fray with color change is on fabric for some reason where legs rug together. Normally goes away in about a week, though the fat takes exercise to get rid of or better diet. Lost about 50 lbs to get rid of most of my problems and new pants. Though still might want to lose more weight to keep in shape. Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:32:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: chemical free storing supers + thanks for queen marking info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello John & All, >Thanks for the queen handling technique Bob, will attempt it as I am not very good with handling them. Practice with drones. Drones buzz and are harder to hold. Queens will try and act like they are going to sting which bothers many. I have never been stung by a queen but although rare it has been reported I completely ignore the queen curling like she is going to sting. Many people hold the queen different to mark her but I learned my way from a queen cager for one of the largest queen producers. If she is trying to twist between your catch fingers most likely you have not got her correctly. When done correctly you should see. 1. queen caught and not moving but abdomen curled up and 2. six legs trying to grasp hold of something. When you move your free hand thumb close you will see her grab hold of the free hand thumb with all legs. Then vary carefully pin 3 legs of one side. Only when the 3 legs are pinned release the "catch" hand. She will relax and wait to be painted. Reach for your marker and carefully place a dot. Many wait for awhile before releasing her but I do not (time is money). When I release her I have a little kind of toss I do which is hard to describe. Queens always land on their feet ( like a cat). The "drop" from a couple inches and disorientates the queen and most sit quietly for a few moments while I replace the frame in the hive. I like to be able to see the position on the frame of the queen when replacing the frame to prevent mashing etc. Many times I have pondered the queens thoughts during marking. Perhaps "doesn't that ---- --- beekeeper have respect for royalty!" There are many ways to mark a queen and the above method was not the method taught by Marla. Holding the queen between the fingers and marking is the method many use ( I think both Marla & Dann Purvis mark bees using the method) . The only problem with that method in my opinion is you need to release pressure on the queen and get another hold. Queens can twist free and fall. I am not saying my method is better or safer on the queen during marking than any other but only the method I prefer. >.By the way I have been praying for your speedy recovery. Thanks! I went to two bee yards yesterday to verify queens ( make sure queenright) in splits and package bees. One yard had 24 hives and the other 25. I found one queenless in each yard ( will install a nuc from the nuc yard soon) but no sign of disease or a drone layer. I have been worried about what I would find but the bees looked good. I love the bee yards! Spring is busting out! Bees are excited and building up! I saw nothing unusual so am happy. Raining today so will work around here ( I can't lift over 15 pounds) but will go verify queens in other yards if the sun comes out until all verified. I am always amazed that a small ball of bees can turn into a huge colony in a couple months! Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 14:18:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Factory farmed honey bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter said: "Look, if I thought it would work, I would be the first and foremost practitioner of "organic" beekeeping." The fact that you put "Organic" in quotes is revealing. To me it is an indication of: a) your understanding that "Organic" is not strictly defined as it relates to beekeeping and b) a certain degree of indignant skepticism, if not contempt, on your part toward the whole idea. I don't think all so called Organic beekeepers are as self righteous and dogmatic as you seem to indicate in your posts. I for one, although not labeling myself as Organic, simply see value in working to find solutions that involve less not more dependence on chemicals. I don't blame large scale commercial beekeepers for all the problems I am having keeping my bees alive. However, I do think that in as much as those operations are encountering difficulties, it would be prudent for them to examine how their practices might be a source of those difficulties. And I am sure that they are. I also think that solutions may very well result from asking "How can we accomplish what we want to do in a different, perhaps more natural and/or unobtrusive way?". It is not unreasonable to hypothesize that some pressures on the bees might be alleviated using some form of this approach. If it is true that you would love to keep bees organically, what ever that means to you, then instead of asking someone else to prove to you that it can be done under your exact circumstances, make it your goal to prove to yourself that it can be done. Otherwise I think what is likely to happen is that you will spend a lot of your energy trying to prove that it can't be done, which of course is a waste of time. Steve NOble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 14:53:49 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Harvesting Varroa & Infesting Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 In a message dated 01/05/2007 12:33:15 GMT Standard Time, n aturebee@YAHOO.COM writes: Rodger was so very kind to share some of his fascinating work with me=20 concerning grooming mites, a topic great interest to me. I=E2=80=99m not s= ure,=20 but I=E2=80=99m assuming it was in confidence so I don=E2=80=99t speak in d= etail about=20 it. I keep meaning to ask if the info is ok to share with others and if=20 he has anything new on the subject to send my way.=20 I have attended two lectures by Rodger in which he presented his work and =20 its prospects; the South West Counties Joint Consultative Committee and the=20= =20 Devon Apicultural Research Group amd he has also had an article published in= the =20 Beekeepers' Quarterly. This suggests that his findings are intentionally in=20 the public domain - but you could ask him. =20 Chris =20 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 15:08:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? Comments: To: Steve Noble Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steve wrote: >Peter said: "Look, if I thought it would work, I would be the first and > foremost practitioner of "organic" beekeeping." > >The fact that you put "Organic" in quotes is revealing. To me it is an >indication of: a) your understanding that "Organic" is not strictly >defined as it relates to beekeeping and b) a certain degree of indignant >skepticism, if not contempt, on your part toward the whole idea. Or c) I am not sure what it means. It is defined in so many different ways that it certainly means one thing to one person and something else to another. I really don't see how you got any indication of "contempt" from what I said. Try to ease up. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 17:00:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: standards for organic success Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In response to Allen and Dee's exchange about whether the "good old days" have returned, I want to first of all second Allen's request for numbers and hard information. From my perspective, and I talk to a pretty good sampling of over a hundred different beekeepers every week, Dee's claims seem ridiculously exaggerated. That said, and as fair as I think Allen's questions are, I'm concerned that some of Allen's implicit assumptions aren't consistent with real organic integrity (by which I mean something much broader than *any* set of rules.) Peter's recent challenge about keeping bees without treatment in New York left me similar reservations. For instance, I don't like the suggestion that the success of organic beekeeping should be judged by its ability to support huge monocultures thousands of miles away. Certainly, if we want to say that these kinds of beekeepers can solve all *their* problems by just using XYZ, then this is a very appropriate standard to judge by, but I think it's also perfectly fair to suggest methods and models that don't support distant, giant monocultures, so long as we're honest. In other words, why does organic have to prove itself on the conventional playing field? Wouldn't that be like calling Walter Payton a mediocre athlete because he couldn't hit a home run? What if organic beekeeping can succeed on an entirely different model? What if organic beekeepers don't keep 500 hives or make a living strictly from beekeeping? What if lots of small, diversified farms have 20 or 50 hives on the side? Why is that *by definition* not real success? I'm not saying organic beekeepers shouldn't have 500 hives, or that they shouldn't pollinate almonds, but one way or another, I think we should expect an organic model to look thoroughly different. In other words, I think if there's any value to organic at all it will run deep. I don't want to undercut Allen's very valid, implicit point that "n" matters if we're trying to prove something, but I don't think our pre- determined definition of success should determine the size/scale at which we keep bees. And I think meaningful organic integrity, if we value that at all, should be expected to lead to radical, fundamental differences. Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 17:09:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: 3 frame observation hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>>I am in search of a three-frame observation hive. Try my friend Jerry in Medina, Ohio YBCute@peoplepc.com I remember that, he enjoyed making a few OB hives during each winter when the bee thing is slow, and I understand has made special orders to specs, including wood type. However, I am not sure if he still makes them. I seen some pics of his OB hives, and I have to say they are quite beautiful. Best Wishes, Joe ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 15:50:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: standards for organic success In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric: You write: Dee's claims seem ridiculously exaggerated. But then you write in other vein.........So then me to you: Come on down and stay a few days and physically go to the bees and look and see. I stand and I don't think I am exaggerating.......Free room my place, I throw you in bee truck, and you have to eat my cooking while here on top of it. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:04:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Lots of information In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/mussen/news_index1.html There is a wealth of info here, especially on what is going on with treatments and CCD. You could spend weeks looking at all that is available. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:11:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 1 May 2007 08:24:28 -0400, Peter L. Borst wrote: >QUOTED: > >> While no one is certain why honey bee colonies are collapsing, factory farmed honey bees are more susceptible to stress from environmental sources than organic or feral honey bees. Most people think beekeeping is all natural but in commercial operations the bees are treated much like livestock on factory farms. > >> I'm on an organic beekeeping email list of about 1,000 people, mostly Americans, and no one in the organic beekeeping world, including commercial beekeepers, is reporting colony collapse on this list. The problem with commercial operations is pesticides used in hives to fumigate for varroa mites and antibiotics are fed to the bees to prevent disease. Hives are hauled long distances by truck, often several times during the growing season, to provide pollination services to industrial agriculture crops, which further stresses the colonies and exposes them to agricultural pesticides and GMOs. > >> Commercial beekeeping today is just another cog in the wheel of industrial agriculture – necessary because pesticides and habitat loss are killing native pollinators, and vast tracks of monoculture crops aren't integrated into the natural landscape. In an organic Canada, native pollinators would flourish and small diversified farms would keep their own natural bees for pollination and local honey sales. The factory farm aspects of beekeeping, combined with an onslaught of negative environmental factors, puts enough stress on the colonies that they are more susceptible to dying out. > I'm going to ignore the references to organic because to me that just clouds and inflames the issue. To me this is not strictly an Organic vs Commercial beekeeping issue. Many reports from researchers are indicating that the largest losses are the beekeepers with the most bees under management. So the claims in the quotes as to losses attributed to commercial beekeeping would seem fair. While beekeepers may be interested in the cause of CCD I'm not sure those details will be absorbed by the public once if or when they are published. General knowledge of how commercial beekeeping is done in the USA is being disseminated daily by the media. People will and are asking questions. The public is very aware of factory farming and the industrial-like practices they employ and the impacts on local environments and economies. Some consumers are making choices to not purchase products from Industrial Farming concerns. I see no reason why the commercial migratory beekeeping industry would not be included in that broad definition of factory farming where profits come first and animal husbandry second. There are many parrellels to livestock Factory Farming......high concentrations of bees, preventative antibiotic use, heavy reliance on "treatments" and some ethical issues that are 180 degrees from what the consumer perceives a beekeeper or farmer to be. Furthermore most of that honey from commercial beekeeping is then mixed with foreign honey and passed off as American. Wow thats just what most Americans would want given a choice....Eh? Kind of like did anyone ask the consumer if they want a little growth hormone with their milk or GMO vs conventional corn for their corn flakes? I have thought for several months that this will be a likely outcome of the CCD media mania.......that the cat may be let out of the bag for commercial beekeeping and many of the practices will be met with skepticism by the consumer public including the end product a blended honey from foreign sources (largely unknown to the buying public for now). The issue of food safety of imports is also in the news with the melamine contamination. IMO we could see damage control measures being pursued by Big Honey within the next 18 months as more and more scrutinty of the bee world is splashed across the media. Some of the news reports are very detailed in the explanation of chemical inputs into hives and other stressful management practices. In the end that kind of public debate may be the ONLY way to get the commercial beekeeping industry to create and embrace some Best Management Practices. Would not some large scale changes in commercial beekeeping practices be in every beekeepers best interest? Who thinks the industry can keep going on the harsh chemical treatment treadmill and last much longer? Hivastan anyone? or How about Amitraz? or maybe Sustainable Beekeeping anyone? Change comes slow...unless the issues are on the front page of every other newspaper every other week. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:17:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: standards for organic success In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can't somebody kill this horse? As has been stated many times on this list, it all depends on the meaning of organic. You will not get agreement even within the organic movement, so we obviously will not get it here. Formic, oxalic, lactic and other "organic" acids are approved for treatment in the EU in varying degree, and I do not doubt that "organic" honey in the US has seen a little extra help getting through the night. If you get down to the public concept of CCD it is all in the commercial pollinators, so Peter's and Allen's posts are valid in asking for the name of a large commercial pollinator who is all organic and makes a living from it. But that question has been asked and never answered. One would think if organic was all there is to great beekeeping that there would be plenty of organic commercial pollinators. As I have said before, I qualify as Finnish organic beekeeper but not US. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:23:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? In-Reply-To: <008b01c78bf7$804f4490$0101a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen mentioned Russian bees, but what we have seen in Maine is that you only buy time with them and they eventually fail, just it takes longer. They may do better elsewhere. Sort of reminds me of all the other sure fire Varroa controls that work fine for the first two or three years until they have built up enough to kill the colony. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:45:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Is this organic? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is a link to a approving agency for the USDA organic label in the US. It is sort of a stopgap set of rules since I know of no approved US standards. http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/organic_standards.htm These standards vary by state. This is almost a copy of the EU standards and allows all those things that are not considered organic by some of the more pure, like antibiotics, formic, oxalic and the other "organic" acids. Wonder why Carbolic acid was left out since it is organic. Or Glacial Acetic Acid which is organic and does a great job on warts, also organic. It is interesting that you could have lots of "organic" honey just by moving colonies, extract quickly and then all the rest is organic.Maybe that is why it is called the Organic "Movement". Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:58:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. In-Reply-To: <20070501.065415.2843.933801@webmail08.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >The primary goal of checkerboarding is to increase the brood area >[and consequently the number of foragers]. Inserting empty comb in >between frames of brood during the spring expansion phase, will make >the colony develop at a much faster rate. I have a hard time with "Checkerboarding." I, for one, would never split up my brood nests in such manner. I can't really see how this supposed increasing of the brood area will make a colony develop at a much faster rate. The queen will only lay so many eggs a day. Alternating combs of brood with empty combs won't increase that rate. Increasing the volume of the broodnest won't increase that rate. I would expect the bees to reform their broodnest to its original size, once the brood nearer the outsides hatches. Mike ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:05:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: standards for organic success Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Peter's and Allen's posts are valid in asking for the >name of a large commercial pollinator who is all organic and makes a >living from it. I'm not really seeing your point, Bill. Can you explain a little more carefully? The first thing that occurs to me is that there's no market, no premium, no demand for organic pollinators, right? So what's the point? Why do organic? Because you believe in it? I worked for a pollinator for a year. It's hard work, especially the loading, unloading, the moving, the trucking, etc. Does anybody enjoy driving big trucks through the middle of the night? People don't truck bees across the country for the good of creation. They do it for the money. And if it's about the money, why bother with things that don't help the bottom line? It's like asking ADM how many of the farmers that supply them with corn for their commodity corn syrup happen to be organic. The answer is obvious. On the other hand, I know two beekeepers from these parts that went to almonds the last couple years, and both of them use "organic" (by OMRI-type standards) mite controls. One uses an essential oil homebrew, the other used formic. Neither of them adheres to rigid standards, because neither of them is a pharisee; they're commercial beekeepers, they're practically oriented. My point, though, is that organic is a values thing. That's a simple truth, isn't it? If it's a values thing, isn't it significant if those values are consistent with distant monocultures or lots of trucking or high input management or mass marketing, etc? I'm not saying it's black and white, and I'm not saying these things are incompatible, but if organic is a values thing, it should be shaped by those values, and one way or another, we should expect organic business models to look different. If we're looking for a standard business model for a successful organic beekeeper, I think we're way off if we're talking about a conventional beekeeper minus the disqualified inputs. If we even need to have a standard type, I'd suggest a small farmer that keeps a few dozen hives on his own farm in permanent yards, labor-intensive and input-frugal, making his money from honey and keeping the pollination benefits for himself and for a free gift to his neighbors, mostly direct marketing to his community, and making enough profit to keep pace with other modest, local farmers and tradesmen. Such a beekeeper may not be very statistically significant when it comes to proving things, but I think he's a pretty good model of organic success. Most of all, I wouldn't want to rule out a model like that. Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:31:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: QUOTES, QUOTES, QUOTES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:21:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: standards for organic success In-Reply-To: <20070501225007.71152.qmail@web51608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > Free room my place, I throw you in bee > truck, and you have to eat my cooking while here on top of > it. > I think the most important question about this whole issue has to be . . . how good a cook is Dee Lusby? Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 20:36:18 -0500 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: Re: standards for organic success Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Standards for "Organic Honey" I would only ask a few questions; during the months your honey supers are on,just how do you know what's in a two mile flight path of any "Organic Honey Producing Colony" on any given day? Just what is an urban center? Is that the middle of a town? Can I place a hive two miles away from downtown Topeka and bee organic? The person who wrote this has obviously never been..........anywhere, anyplace out-side!!! I've never seen an apiary where ants aren't present or are "low activity ants". I want to see some of these critters!!!! "Low activity ants" Anyone ever seen "Killer Ants" on discovery channel?. I believe all of my hives are painted in a suitable color. If it wasn't suitable, I wouldn't have used it. They are (all paintable)and especially now after a year in the field. I've never seen a bee keel over from the paint on the side of a box in 15 years. < In other words, why does organic have to prove itself on the conventional playing field? Wouldn't that be like calling Walter Payton a mediocre athlete because he couldn't hit a home run?> "Organic" sets its own rules and asks for a premium, so it should have to prove itself. Walter Payton proved himself every game, every play, on the field of a football stadium.............. where he proclaimed he was a football player, the real thing, not a basketball player or hockey player or any other pretender. You ask me for $8.00 a lb. and up and the burden of proof is on you. You are no longer on a "conventional playing field." I haven't had a better laugh since I saw my first Marx Brothers Movie when I was 8 years old. Tim Tucker ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:54:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?JWG?= Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Interesting discussions. I first got interested in using triples when I had a few outyards and I didn't want to have to deal with feeding. The multiple brood chambers could hold a nice reserve of honey, year to year. But of late I am encountering a potential drawback to overwintering in triples. Provisioning them as C. L. Farrar, F.E. Moeller and others recommended leaves the colonies going nice and heavy into winter, with very large (90 lbs.?) sealed-honey and pollen reserves. However, if some colonies die during the winter, for whatever reason, you can end up with about two deeps' worth of old honey, in brood combs, which has either granulated or fermented. This can be a pain to deal with in the spring. Sure, you can restock, but it might be quite a while until all those combs get emptied so they are of use for brood rearing again. Some colonies such as Russians and Carniolans typically won't need such large reserves for wintering. On the other hand, in some years I have seen Italian types keep breeding well into the fall such that they burn up much of the honey in the top (3rd) deep and replace it with brood before the cold weather sets in. So it can be hard to say what the optimum amount of stores, or optimum size of hive, is. Of course, too, the food can be there, and if the placement isn't just right, they can still starve. This year, for us, some clusters didn't come close to burning through the volume of provisions they were left with. I am having to remove some full combs of honey, much of it granulated solid, to free up space for egg laying. But at least they didn't starve. Being an enthusiastic backyard hobbyist, I have the luxury of extracting more of the honey and leaving them with somewhat less, in the fall, since I can keep an eye on them and easily feed in spring if it becomes necessary. This can help do away with problematic excesses of granulated or spoiled stores, should the colonies succumb during winter. Plus I can harvest more honey to pack. $$ Sugar is cheap. It has become more difficult to predict overwintering success with confidence, with all the added stresses on the colonies in recent years. I have seen so many fine December clusters (mine and others') dwindle down to pathetic handfuls of bees by March. So as yet, it's not obvious what the ideal balance is between overharvesting and leaving "too much" honey. (Anyone, please chime in here.) Perhaps overwintering in two deeps, and leaving a full medium extracting super on top at the end of the season, like Mike Palmer has mentioned might be the very best compromise, at least in parts of the Northeast. Then they have a full medium of honey above their heads, plus whatever they can pack away in the upper deep from the fall sources. And they still have lots of room for pollen storage below. An unlimited brood nest (3 x deep), during buildup, anyway, is great, from what I've seen. If your stock is any good, it is conducive to building wonderful, booming colonies. Meanwhile, the extra large brood nest delays the onset of swarm preps. It certainly doesn't prevent swarming on its own, but the swarming doesn't occur so soon, and that gives you more time to manage things, IME. And if you don't do that, you might get to see some really cool big swarms. For overwintering, at least in some situations, triples loaded heavily with stores might be considered overkill. I once asked Roger Morse's opinion on three deep brood nests, back in the 80s when I was reading a lot of Farrar's old stuff. Dr. Morse wasn't so enthusiastic,; he considered triples "exorbitant" and not the best use of available equipment. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 07:27:32 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message , Brian Fredericksen writes >I see no reason why the commercial migratory beekeeping industry would >not be included in that >broad definition of factory farming where profits come first and animal >husbandry second. You really don't get the real picture here. I cannot square any idea that commercial migratory beekeeping is exclusive of good animal husbandry. Yet several on here seem to have enormous antipathy to migratory beekeeping, throw in the word commercial and you can hear the silver crucifixes being pulled out of pockets. Now, it is quite possible that UNsuccessful commercial migratory beekeepers do NOT use good animal husbandry, just as UNsuccessful amateurs, sideliners, and small scalers. However, to be a successful commercial beekeeper you MUST have the bees welfare very highly placed in your mind. I for one resent any suggestion that somehow my management practices are inferior for the bees welfare in general. However it IS true that compromises are made and being a hard line purist in one way or another and never compromising does paint you into a corner that can give rise to serious problems. Migratory is NOT a problem. Bees on an abundant crop to work are always more content and prosperous than ones kept in one place through all the flows and dearths that often means. Commercial is NOT a problem. Truly commercial maximises the positive conditions for the bees as the living depends on it. Only thing I hear about some US practices that I feel is alien to my thinking is the massive drops of colonies (what some are calling feedlot beekeeping) which just has to have the local resources overstretched. I get the impression some would like to eliminate commercial beekeeping. The denigrative term 'Big Honey' was used. Why so? Does the public not have a right to buy honey at an affordable price? Of course most of that comes from the bigger enterprises so are you proposing that honey should become a high priced rarity? Probably not, but it would be an unintended consequence and suck in even more imports. The term factory farmed is just so wide of the mark. Bees like to work. Give them suitable work and they will do it all the time. And btw..............those poor forced labourers that we coerce this honey out of in summer to the detriment of their welfare? Funnily enough there is a direct correlation between how much honey they bring in in summer with how well they survive the following winter. But then that will put my profits up so I suppose thats a bad thing.......... -- Murray McGregor ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 00:05:50 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Did I Say Anything About Organic? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did I Say Anything About Organic? I don't think so. I was talking about being able to switch combs around without worry about chemical contamination, like in the old days, and also keep bees without constantly monitoring for mites and interrupting other activities to treat. Someone said there are lots of people doing this. I asked how many, where, and who -- and if they contribute anything much at all to the productive output of the industry. That's all. I'm still waiting for answers to those questions, not other questions that I did not ask. Therefore, please disregard the mention of my name in the context of arguing about things I did not say -- or even imply -- and leave me out of any discussion of organic, at least until the term is understood by all to mean the same thing. Thanks. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 20:00:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: standards for organic success In-Reply-To: <4637CA73.3050507@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill: Formic, oxalic, lactic and other "organic" acids are approved for treatment in the EU in varying degree, and I do not doubt that "organic" honey in the US has seen a little extra help getting through the night. Reply: Well, as long as I can and with help from those on the organicbeekeepers discussion group, these acids will never be organic standards in the USA for continued burning holes in the soft exoskelton of our honeybees, let alone vectoring in secondary diseases, or destroying the gut for eating, or hurting tender breathing passages for breathing, for rates used is not natural, and if not natural level the bees normally in Nature come in contact with, then man's higher levels of usage are just plain old doping. Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:03:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: chemical free storing supers + thanks for queen marking info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As always, lots of different ways of doing things. Re: comb storage, bees like to store honey more in dark combs, but those combs are always a wax moth time bomb in warm weather. Any honey in dark combs I extract right away. I use queen excluders for much of my honey production, and keep those combs "white"--no cocoons or pollen. the white combs can be stored in any weather, honey-filled or empty, for years without moth damage--no protein for the larvae to grow on. Dark combs store best with lots of ventilation and light. Sealing them up creates perfect moth habitat. Safe to store as long as temps are cool. In spring, as soon as temps climb above 70°, I get them onto bees asap. Re queen marking. Lots of ways (like Bob's) work--try them all. My normal is Testor's sky blue for yellow queens, yellow for dark queens (I don't use year code). These colors show best. Drill hole in lid, and make a coathanger wire loop to fit tight in hole. Grind end square. Test drop on drones first, then kill them so they don't confuse you in the hive. Shake paint well each time. Consistency is important. I approach queen with left hand from behind (I'm a righty)and snatch her up by wings from behind. Get wings from each side, so she can't twist. Get paint dabber ready. Lower queen onto pants leg, and she will grab and hold still for a bit. Dab her once straight down with paint. Lift her and blow off solvent. Release her onto comb. If paint is left wet, workers will drag it over her wing bases. Watch her for a few seconds to make sure workers don't jump her. Paint will last a lifetime. Have only been stung once ever by a queen (have handled and marked thousands)--a young one I had chased and dropped a few times, and then pinned against my bare leg. Venom hurt. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:41:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen Dick writes: I don't think many commercial beekeepers are anywhere near there yet. Reply: Probably true, but the list is growing, and with the smaller commercial mom and pop, and not the larger commercial that park and bark. Though we shall see as a few larger are debating doing it though not happy about the doings necessary (grumbling can be hard at times). Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:47:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit JWG: C. L. Farrar, F.E. Moeller knew beekeeping and honey getting and one thing to consider here. When they were doing it combs weren't still so big, nor artificial feeds so rampant, nor various treatments either. Just something to thing about. Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 06:12:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: standards for organic success In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Brown wrote: > On the other hand, I know two beekeepers from these parts that went to > almonds the last couple years, and both of them use "organic" (by OMRI-type > standards) mite controls. One uses an essential oil homebrew, the other > used formic. Neither of them adheres to rigid standards, because neither > of them is a pharisee; they're commercial beekeepers, they're practically > oriented. > No problem with that and we are in agreement. Commercial organic, except in beekeeping, is "practically oriented". It has to be if the practitioner is going to earn a living from it. Both would be condemned by some in the organic movement. The standard argument in these threads is always the issue between practical and ideal. The idealist paints a picture of pure evil on the part of the commercial beekeeper, almost a parody. There are good and bad on both sides. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 11:38:04 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Increasing the volume of the broodnest won't increase that rate. I would expect the bees to reform their broodnest to its original size, once the brood nearer the outsides hatches. It is true that the queen will only lay eggs within the perimeter laid out by the bees. This perimeter is obviously limited by how much brood space the bees can cover. During the spring expansion the queen will venture out of this virtual brood space and lay eggs but the bees will eat those eggs if they can't maintain the temp/humidity/feeding in that area. I've moved frames with sealed brood to the outside and added a couple of frames with empty comb to the middle. (Sealed brood generates a lot of heat.) The empty comb is now in the 'perimeter' and the bees will not eat the eggs the queen lays in the empty comb. The brood area and the expansion rate both increase. Predrag has provided links in the past where the same technique has been used to encourage the bees to draw out more brood nest foundation faster. If I recall, there was statistical info there, too. This technique is more of an art than a science in one way. The nights can be cold during the spring expansion and one does not want to expand the brood nest to the point where brood will be chilled. I don't attempt checkerboarding until the night time temps are consistently above 40F. I keep the screened bottom sealed and the entrance reduced. When night time temps are still all, I will only add 1 or 2 empty frames to the middle area of the brood nest per deep and always in proporation to the colony strength. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 11:56:26 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>On the other hand, in some years I have seen Italian types keep breeding well into the fall such that.... One of my criteria for selecting queens to produce virgins from is shutting down brood rearing by November in my area. I had one queen that did not quit at all this past [somewhat mild] winter. I will not propagate her genetics. >>...they burn up much of the honey in the top (3rd) deep and replace it with brood before the cold weather sets in. There is no reason [in my area] to overwinter in 3 deeps. I use 2 and I overwinter nucs w/o a problem. I do believe that having a deep with empty comb under an overwintering colony can be beneficial for better air/water management by the bees in the hive. But it is not a necessity in my area. I'd add the 3rd deep to facilitate the spring expansion. >>Of course, too, the food can be there, and if the placement isn't just right, they can still starve. This is certainly true in the colder parts. >>I am having to remove some full combs of honey, much of it granulated solid, to free up space for egg laying. But at least they didn't starve. I've had mixed results with providing water in my hives. Roughly half took up the water VERY eagerly during the early, cold spring. They may have used it to liquify any crystalized honey. >>Meanwhile, the extra large brood nest delays the onset of swarm preps. It certainly doesn't prevent swarming on its own, but the swarming doesn't occur so soon, and that gives you more time to manage things, IME. They say the lack of a honey dome over the dome prevents major build- up of nectar in the brood nest which is a trigger for swarm prep. This is what I am verifying for myself this year. Chekerboarding breaks up the honey dome as does reversing. Reversing, however, slows down expansion. >>Dr. Morse wasn't so enthusiastic,; he considered triples "exorbitant" and not the best use of available equipment. I agree with Dr. Morse on this. :) Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 08:46:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: standards for organic success Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill: >Formic, oxalic, lactic and other "organic" acids are >approved for treatment in the EU in varying degree > Dee: >Well, as long as I can and with help from those on the >organicbeekeepers discussion group, these acids will never >be organic standards in the USA Right. The big problem the organic movement has had is the various factions can never seem to agree on anything. Seems as if each thinks his way is the right one, and they can never reach a consensus. This is why the term falls into the same category as "natural". It can mean just about anything you want it to, hence it becomes meaningless pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 08:48:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Did I Say Anything About Organic? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Did I Say Anything About Organic? I don't think so. No, you didn't use the word organic, and perhaps it's a good word to avoid. Implicitly and explicitly you talked about success, though. My concern is that we not limit our ideas of successful beekeeping to methods that work for almond pollination, 500+ hives, and full-time livings. I think this should especially apply to the broadly defined organic camp, which is why *I* emphasized organic. As for your questions of Dee, I think they were exceedingly appropriate for the purpose of proving that the days of beekeepers across the country having the option of switching combs around, not monitoring for varroa, and not interrupting other activities on account of varroa have not returned. And I agree with that point. (Correct me if that's not a fair summary.) I chose to pursue a tangent that related to questions like yours and the limits of how such questions should be applied. As to what you implied, I assumed you asked about almond pollination, 500+ hives, and full-time livings because they represented a kind of gold standard for success. And for a certain segment of North American beekeeping, I reckon they do. I wanted to point out that for other segments that might very well not. Aren't full-time livings connected to the prior discussion as a measure of success? >I asked how many, where, >and who -- and if they contribute anything much at all to the productive >output of the industry. I, too, would love to hear a direct answer to those questions. I was very glad to see you ask them. And I thought they were well posed, leaving very little room for evasiveness. I certainly hope my pursuing a tangent won't get in the way of that happening. I don't see why it should. Of course, the absence of an answer is one kind of answer, but I'd prefer to hear it explicitly. > and leave me out of any >discussion of organic, at least until the term is understood by all to mean >the same thing. I only meant to point out how what I took to be some of your standards of success would apply to (broadly defined) organic beekeeping. Of course, the term organic will never be understood by all to mean the same thing. Moreover, I think the usefulness of the term is directly proportionate to the degree that it's not tied to *anybody's* strict definition. Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 08:48:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: standards for organic success Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >You ask me for $8.00 a lb. and up and the burden of proof is on you. You are no longer on a "conventional playing field." I couldn't agree more. If anything, I might want to phrase that point more strongly. Generally speaking, I think $8/lb is ridiculous. I sell my certified-only-by-me-and-according-to-my-own-standards organic honey for $9.50/quart at the farmers market. That's my idea of a fair and reasonable price, and almost everyone that's even interested in local honey (around here) seems to find it very acceptable. But I wasn't trying to prove that organic honey is worth any kind of premium. I was trying to say that a good model of organic beekeeping success might not meet the standards of 500+ hives, a full-time living, and almond pollination--and that not meeting those standards shouldn't necessarily detract from its successfulness. Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 08:54:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2 May 2007 07:27:32 +0100, Murray McGregor wrote: >You really don't get the real picture here. > >I cannot square any idea that commercial migratory beekeeping is >exclusive of good animal husbandry. I never said its exclusive, I'm sure every kind of beekeeper can be put in that class (bee-havers), Its obviously harder to worry about your bees when you have 1000's of colonies and a large overhead to meet. Shop rag treatments and preventative antibitoic use is rampant in the commercial industry in fact it may be the unofficial standard method of operation for most commercial beekeepers (although there is no statisitics to prove that). These practices are documented by several reports. I see nothing that ABF or AHPA is doing either to promote sustainable practices in their membership. The facts speak for themselves and since the commercial folks account for most of the hive ownership the steps in the right direction or the losses are most felt in that sector. Getting hobbyists to move to more sustainable practices is not going to save the industry. I don't see how any one can defend the "overall" situation in the commercial world as sustainable. Are we to beleive that the industry has embraced soft chemical useage, moved towards resistant stock, avoids FB treatments and burns equipment, or is changing contaminated comb out from the checkmite era? Get real...... IMO the "affordable honey" is part of the problem in the commercial industry. You get paid dirt for your honey, need to do pollination to survive, the "affordable honey" creates the environment to cut corners and use off label treatments. Unless the commercial price of honey increases to a sustainable point and stays there I don't see how the number of commercial beekeepers will increase. I'll let the commercial beekeeper in the article below do the rest of the talking "Miller said neither scientists nor beekeepers understand what's at the root of the collapsing colonies. He believes about a third of collapsing colony disorder is due to poor management by the beekeepers. "They aren't following the new standards for hive husbandry," Miller said. "Things have changed."" BTW, I have been critical of the CCD map since many affected beekeepers where out of state when they saw CCD problems. How then does that loss get registered in the home state? http://www.helenair.com/articles/2007/05/02/ap-state-mt/d8oru96o0.txt North Dakota joins states with 'collapsing colony disorder' BISMARCK, N.D. - North Dakota now is among about a dozen states, including Montana, where beekeepers report some of their bees are buzzing away from hives for good. The phenomenon, known as collapsing colony disorder, affects crops that depend on bees for pollination. Judy Carlson, the apiary inspector for the state Agriculture Department, said North Dakota beekeepers are returning to the state after using their bees elsewhere to pollenate cucumbers and almond and orange trees. A survey of 15 out of the 179 beekeepers in the state found about half had poor or disappearing hives, she said. "Some are reporting that they are losing 50 to 80 percent of their hives," Carlson said. North Dakota, with an estimated 382,500 hives, led the country in honey production last year. "This is a really big deal for the honey industry here," state Agriculture Commissioner Roger Johnson said. "It's a real mystery because bees have an enormously strong homing instinct, but in this case, they are flying away and never coming back and nobody knows where they went." Randy Verhoek of Bismarck said he lost half his 13,000 hives this year, costing him about $400,000. "We'd go out one day and find full boxes, and a week later they would just be gone," he said. Verhoek said he lost money because he did not have his normal hive count for pollination in California almond orchards. He said he had to send weakened hives to Texas for rebuilding. Verhoek and Gackle beekeeper John Miller, with 10,000 hives, say the phenomenon of collapsing colonies may have many causes, including drought, disease and insecticides. Miller said neither scientists nor beekeepers understand what's at the root of the collapsing colonies. He believes about a third of collapsing colony disorder is due to poor management by the beekeepers. "They aren't following the new standards for hive husbandry," Miller said. "Things have changed." Carlson hopes government research will find ways to prevent collapsing colony disorder. "Our bees go to other states, so it affects everyone at some point," she said. In March, a leading Montana beekeeper said his business was taking a hit from a big loss of bees, which he attributed to mites and collapsing colony disorder. Lance Sundberg, a professional beekeeper for 24 years and the operator of Sunshine Apiary in Columbus, said that in a span of about seven months ending in February, his hive inventory fell from 5,600 to 3,800. A service of the Associated Press(AP) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 06:13:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have had great success with triples. 1) it gives you two seams to feed pollen, between 1-2, 2-3 , we can get about 12 pounds per box this way and only have to service them twice this way. 2) we can syrup feed heavy and not worry about plugging out the queen, which also saves time. 3) but the real sweet deal is you can spit them before the almonds, fill up your D.O. in Jan and shake all spring long while most are making up increase. 4) pallets never come back to the shop because you fill all the holes in Jan, before you have to move them. Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 09:52:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >If there is anybody out there within three hours driving time of my house >(Ithaca, NY) that has colonies that have survived more than two years >without chemicals of any kind, I would like to see them. You can write to me >off list. Peter--That might be me! Though I gotta say I have the luxury of income from a day job to support these efforts (failures) whereas a commercial beekeeper could not take the jump and the dip in productivity in their operations and stay in business. It may be the smaller keepers who define a different (scale) model to the commercial beekeeping paradigm. Anyone with bees is a beekeeper & the diversity of this base is a strength to the industry in my opinion. If everyone kept bees the exact same way we would be in a world of hurt. I'm picking up on several initiatives for my model. Obviously, a plan with a long way to go to fully implement. I do however maintain a level of production & sales that grows every year. This drives me to either succeed or pay out to maintain product for sales. SO: 01--I cannot be completely "organic" as I live in an area where people will be putting down insecticides on yards, to corn & on orchards. However I choose not to put chems in my hives--I do use insecticides here & there myself and know from my day job how well and cost effective a well placed chemical treatment can be. 02--I like what Kurt Webster says about not having all my bees in the same rotational cycle. This years splits are my packages for next year. This years bees are for honey production. 03--I have not used miticides for three years That said I have lost a lot of bees. 75% this year. 30% were lost following the 2 week April snow storm as these were weak colonies with small clusters & needed a "normal" April that they did not get. 04--my base stock needs to stop brood rearing quickly during a dearth. This is so I can have a "broodless" period of two weeks that coincides with our August dearth. I have been caging queens but this is too difficult for many hives. The break in brood cycle reduces mite loads. This coupled with drone trapping are my main methods for controlling mites. Local selection of survivorship is where I'm headed. 05--I am considering the use of Formic Acid as a spring treatment-- but im waffling. 06--Local bees are preferred I do not want to import problems. I like the Idea of a NE Queen breeding program--or just a local queen breeding program to suit localities with different climatic conditions. 07--Half my yearly sales are from beeswax candles, I harvest wax & have a strong wax recycling process. Plastic foundation is easy to scrape--wax is rendered in the garage. Not perfect --not for everyone! Tailored for my beekeeping! My hurdles include loss of bees, & where to replenish to maintain my apiaries. I am still buying bees to replace losses--but this is already reduced in occurrence as my methods & (hopefully) my stock improves. If I can become sustainable, again I draw on K. Webster's writings, then I will gain income out of the process & can write off some early losses. My biggest problem now is my day job where I travel every other week to Michigan --not enough time. Mike Griggs ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 07:08:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Murray, I couldn't have said it better! > Migratory is NOT a problem. I consider myself as a bee cowboy who hauls his herd to better pastures. > Commercial is NOT a problem. I make money on healthy bees. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 09:51:44 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen mentioned Russian bees, but what we have seen in Maine is that you > only buy time with them and they eventually fail, just it takes longer. > They may do better elsewhere. Last I talked to Manley (last winter) he wasn't having to treat. Charley? Where are you? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 11:29:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: Did I Say Anything About Organic? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2 May 2007 08:48:38 -0400, Eric Brown wrote: >>Did I Say Anything About Organic? I don't think so. > >No, you didn't use the word organic, and perhaps it's a good word to >avoid. Implicitly and explicitly you talked about success, though. I wrote about exactly what I wrote about, and chose my words exceeedingly carefully. If you choose to use my ideas as a springboard to a different subject and go on a tangent, then fine and good, but please do not argue with things I did not say or imply and attribute them to me. Please go back and read what I wrote and what you werote and think about it. > Implicitly and explicitly you talked about success, though. Of course I did. Commercial success over time is the gold standard, and commercial activity is one of the main reasons that honey bees are tolerated, considered important,and worried about greatly throughout the US. There are -- and always have been as far as I can tell -- far too many romantics, posers and pretenders in beekeeping who like a good story better than hard truth, do a great job of hoodwinking large followings, mostly for personal glory as far as I can tell. The criteria I gave weeds out most, but not all of that group. Organic (there I said the word), non-organic, slave to the chemical industry, or whatever, I don't care. RML. I asked how many people don't have to worry about mixing combs from brood to supers, and don't have to worry about checking regularly for mites or scheduling other important tasks around mite considerations and treatments. I know that Dee is in that small, exclusive, group, and respect her greatly, but am not sure that she qualifies on the other criteria I gave. She is a good cook, though, and an excellent hostess. I recommend that anyone invited take her up on that invitation post haste (Peter?). I'm not sure the summer is when you want to be there. See http://www.honeybeeworld.com/Lusby/ for a glimpse. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 09:42:22 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As much as I hate to get into this, and refuse to get into trying to define, "organic", I can see a humorous side to the whole thing, seeing as "organic" is a concept that has created a niche market with, for the most part, high prices. Assuming -- as seems to be the case -- that in many (most) cases, "organic" producers depend on there being a sometimes huge price advantage for their product over "non-organic" honey for their business model to work, then, if that price differential in their favour went away, their higher costs and smaller scale would kill them. How could that happen? Imagine, if all of a sudden, every beekeeper were to become organic, then the differential would evaporate, and the formerly niche market would be flooded, and become the mass market, driving prices down. Thus, except for those "organic" beekeepers with a low unit cost of production (of which I imagine there are relatively few, percentage-wise ) a mass adoption of "organic" production methods would be bad news for the current group. How about that? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 08:58:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Did I Say Anything About Organic? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric writes: As for your questions of Dee, I think they were exceedingly appropriate for the purpose of proving that the days of beekeepers across the country having the option of switching combs around, not monitoring for varroa, and not interrupting other activities on account of varroa have not returned. And I agree with that point. (Correct me if that's not a fair summary.) Reply: Oh but they have, and the numbers of beekeepers doing it exactly that way are growing daily, and expanding like a new industry rising up from the roots, with a coming back to enjoyable beekeeping again without all the gimicky of treatments, and artificialness that detracts from old doings. For once hives are re-established and mites and secondary diseases are not a problem there is indeed no need to waste time monitoring them. You go back to normal beekeeping duties of old. Same with queen rearing once bees are acclimitized again to local surroundings. Beekeeping becomes a pleasure again with sitting for hours and watching the little critters, thinking about life and enjoying and interacting/helping each other. Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:42:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Three-deep broodnests. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Keith & All, Beekeeping is always local. Even in commercial beekeepers the area you are in and your needs bee wise enter in to the methods you use. >We have had great success with triples. In out area those which use triples do so only to winter. The problem with triples can also be said for doubles at times. In a poor honey year most of your honey production can end up in your brood nest. 1) it gives you two seams to feed pollen, between 1-2, 2-3 , we can get about 12 pounds per box this way and only have to service them twice this way. 24 pound of pollen patty? I realize you guys have not got a choice as I have wintered bees in California (near Kermin) and zero pollen & nectar came in. However in many areas we simply drop the bees into a heavy fall flow (such as heartsease in the Black Water River bottoms near me) and the bees plug the box with brood/bees/ pollen and nectar. Zero cost and labor except for the trucking (40 mile round trip). 2) we can syrup feed heavy and not worry about plugging out the queen, which also saves time. Again a strong fall flow can help with heavy feeding. I looked for these when we went to California. Could not find any around the valley. The only option then was to feed both pollen & syrup. We heard rumors of fall honey in the North but did not pursue the idea. The best option and worked the best for both us and the almond grower ( said he had the best bees he had in years) was to truck bees into strong fall flows in Texas, winter in Texas and then truck into California. The plus side was Texas was only a stop on the way to almond pollination and after almonds the bees were trucked back into the Midwest ( saving the cost of a return trip from Texas but involved one extra loading & unloading beside placement in almonds). The beekeeper which wrote about the crystallized honey in comb has a problem many see with fall honey coming in from certain plants. Spanish nettle, asters & heartsease make an excellent honey for bees to winter on in our area. We move away from Goldenrod if possible for wintering. 3) but the real sweet deal is you can spit them before the almonds, fill up your D.O. in Jan and shake all spring long while most are making up increase. This is a good deal. Part of the problem with almond pollination is the time of year it happens for out of state beekeepers. Most bees are at their weakest point of the season (unless given the things Keith has said and written about). The beekeepers in states close to California are keen on almond pollination which I would expect as once the bugs are worked out almonds can be an important part of their income. Logistics get harder the farther away you are. Especially with overwintered colonies. The biggest success from a long distance for southern beekeepers to almonds has been in making up singles by cramming a frame of honey , 8 or nine brood and so many bees you can barely get the lid on. These go right into almonds and have brought the full price. The beekeepers say they care little what they look like when they return as long as they get their equipment back as they will equalize the mess when they return. In Australia queen producers move their hives around five times on average looking for nectar & pollen. The producer I spoke with has seen pollen analysis on different plants which help in decided which area to migrate to. Trucking in their opinion is cheaper than feeding and with the right pollen source produces better results. The person I spoke with said a few years back Australia had a "disappearing "type problem which their researchers traced to poor pollen from certain plants. Maybe Trevor will comment? Tests ( Weslaco bee lab) on the radiated pollen out of China which is fueling feedlot beekeeping has been disappointing . Not a lot of nutritional value but DOES make the patty appeal to the bees better. Quite a bit of research is going on now on nutritional needs of bees. The NHB funded a new research program on bee nutrition for 2007. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Missouri -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 14:03:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: No Silver Bullets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > ...the numbers of beekeepers doing it >exactly that way are growing daily, and expanding like a >new industry rising up from the roots, with a coming back >to enjoyable beekeeping again without all the gimicky of >treatments, and artificialness that detracts from old >doings. This is pretty well what we had all hoped for, but it has been slow in coming, partly due to the availability of chemical solutions. What many forget is that the use of chemicals, when originally permitted, was supposed to be a stop-gap or emergency measure. However, many have become dependant on them. This partly due to the fact that a profitable small industry has grown up around developing and distributing these short-term solutions, and considerable money and time is spent promoting them. The idea was that the chemicals could keep bees and beekeepers alive until beees were adapted to dealing with the mites. Unfortunately, the use of these chemicals has slowed the adaptation by keepinmg susceptible strains of bees alive and in the gene pool. It's one of those catch 22 things. Bite the bullet and take the drastic hit immediately, or pay -- possibly much more -- over an extended timeframe. Of course the choice was to take as little a loss up front as possible, and hope for a silver bullet. Unfortunately, that silver bullet has not come. For a solution to be the silver bullet, it would have to work for everyone everywhere and cost nothing after implementation. Good genetics was the big hope, but it turns out that the mite tolerant strains do not measure -- yet -- up for many jobs, since they lack some of the qualities necessary for profitability in some important commercial applications. Small cell works for some, but hasn't caught on in a big way with commercial operators, although many have tinkered with it. Lack of scientific confirmation has held this one back, as has the religious fervour of some proponents, and the seeming total absence -- even after many years now -- of any large commercially viable examples. Organic acids (there is that word "organic" again, this time used in its correct meaning) don't count, since they are just a more -- possibly -- benign part of the same chemical treadmill. Some beekeepers think that some minor addition to feed, like copper gluconate, could be ideal, since there is virtually no cost, and the mite problem goes away, however, unfortunately, there is no evidence that CG works, or that we can find such a benign and inexpensive talisman. Nonetheless, there are many beekeepers who add their own "magic potion" to hives in the belief -- and it is only that -- that they are doing some good. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 14:07:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? In-Reply-To: <02c201c78cd1$cbab4080$0101a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen There are quite a few of us Russian beekeepers that DO NOT use chemicals the number is at least 18 or more. I do not use chemicals on my bees here in south LA. and suffer no more than a 20% loss on 600 bees and still sold 125 nucs this year. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 allen dick wrote: > > Charley? Where are you? > ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 15:38:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: 3 frame observation hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/05/2007 12:42:59 GMT Standard Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: Does anyone know which race of bees is most adaptable to the conditions in observation hives (least propolizing, least swarming, not-so-large-but-stable population etc.)? If it is the objective of having an observation hive to observe doing what comes narurally, including gathering and using propolis and making swarming preparations wouldn't it be better to find an observation hive that suits the bees rather than vice versa? Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 17:40:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/05/2007 17:39:10 GMT Standard Time, pdillon1@MTS.NET writes: With a potential for increased "preventive" treatment procedures using fumagillin against Nosema ceranae, Peter, I don't think fumidil can be used as a preventative, and I assume that you don't either as you put the word in quotes. It may prevent it multiplying as rapidly where it is already present (therefore too late to prevent) and so be of some use, but if it is already present it is likely that it has reached the spore stage and so beyond reach of fumidil. The spores will infect new young bees as they clean combs and so the cycle will go on unless you break it by providing clean combs or foundation/strips. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 00:06:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message , Brian Fredericksen writes >Its obviously harder to worry about your bees when you have 1000's of >colonies and a large >overhead to meet. Why is this obvious? Having costs to meet and a living to make has the exact opposite effect. You HAVE to make sure your bees welfare is catered for. > Shop rag treatments and preventative antibitoic use is rampant snip > The facts speak for themselves and since the >commercial folks account for most of the hive ownership the steps in >the right direction or the >losses are most felt in that sector. I read and reread that lot several times......but cannot call it an accurate picture of the world as I see it. It is a rant, pinning blame on the one sector yet again. >IMO the "affordable honey" is part of the problem in the commercial >industry. You get paid dirt for >your honey, Pray tell, as you seem to know. What price do I get for my honey? > need to do pollination to survive, the "affordable honey" creates the >environment to >cut corners and use off label treatments. Unless the commercial price >of honey increases to a >sustainable point and stays there I don't see how the number of >commercial beekeepers will >increase. The price HAS to be sustainable all round! That does not mean the beekeeper gets all he or she wants. The only good business deals are ones where both parties come away with something that makes them feel it was good business. One party 'stiffs' another and its never forgotten. Yes, bulk prices in N. America are too low..........but the price spike of a couple of years back after the Chinese crisis was also destructive. It lured several countries into ramping up production, and when supplies come back on stream all round suddenly there is more honey on the market than before the spike, which is bad news. Post spike prices are usually lower than pre spike prices. Then of course you also run the serious risk of unintentionally promoting imports by pricing domestic product too high. >"They aren't following the new standards for hive husbandry," Miller >said. "Things have changed."" We shall see what the story is when the dust settles on this one. Conclusions are being jumped to on scanty evidence, or even none. Seems too good an opportunity for those with a pet hobby horse to miss wheeling it out. -- Murray McGregor ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 18:12:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Interesting John Miller would be your idol beekeeper. Unless he changed last year ( California almond fever) John has been killing off (or selling blow bees) each winter for as long as I have known him. He installs new packages in spring. He has spoke about his methods at ABF meetings many times and to me directly. He told me he never treats those packages and the last time we spoke has never treated for varroa. My comment was: "I guess will work great until the day if ever comes you can't get package bees" The last time we spoke at length if this email is relayed to John was at the Norfolk ABF convention. John & I walked across the street to eat lunch. My opinion of John back then and now is he is a smart beekeeper and a successful beekeeper. He has avoided many of the issues others of us have faced in the battle to control varroa by depopulating hives. My beekeeping partner ( which reads the list but does not post) would say that he and I have considered John Miller's method of survival (depopulating and repopulating) on several occasions. I just don't understand how depopulating hives each fall and replacing with package bees in spring takes new *standards for hive husbandry*? >"They aren't following the new standards for hive husbandry," Miller said. "Things have changed."" >A survey of 15 out of the 179 beekeepers in the state found about half had poor or disappearing hives, she said. And what did the other 164 say? >North Dakota, with an estimated 382,500 hives, led the country in honey production last year.. I don't think so! Maybe in 2005 but certainly not in 2006! 2006 was the worst year in N. Dakota honey production many have ever seen. ( source my N. Dakota beekeeping friends!) In support of commercial beekeepers: Marla Spivak's words taken from the Missouri State Beekeepers newsletter which just came out: "Why are Honey Bees Collapsing" Marla Spivak March 23,2007 "Finally, the beekeeping heroes that transport their colonies across the nation to pollinate crops for our nations food supply face extreme difficulties in supplying bees that are strong and healthy enough for pollination" Would all the interest in CCD be there if not for the valuable pollination commercial beekeepers supply? You can buy organic honey from other countries and also honey to put on pancakes but it takes U.S. beekeepers to do U.S. pollination. Despite all the crying foul against U.S. commercial beekeeping practices there has not been one case of chemical contamination from U.S. beekeepers! Many thought the three year honey watch put in place by the FDA would find many problems but was not the case. Instead of U.S. problems the watch turned up problems with China and Argentine imported honey. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 16:53:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? Comments: To: allen dick In-Reply-To: <028d01c78cd0$7bc283e0$0101a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen: Thus, except for those "organic" beekeepers with a low unit cost of production (of which I imagine there are relatively few, percentage-wise ) a mass adoption of "organic" production methods would be bad news for the current group. How about that? Reply: Allen, as the circle goes round and numbers grow and concepts become again mainstream isn't this what is supposed to happen anyway? Also personally I have never seen the nitch market you say except in local sales to chain health food stores and those buying direct, as I am commercial and one of the few that sell in bulk and in bulk I have always had to bear the common price over the years or other as offered. But then too think hard Allen for population expansion and less area for agric production will be in the formula for pricing increases,and/as packers cannot keep things low in USA to 1980s style indefinitely. So to me what you say makes sense! Am I in that odd ball nitch? with bulk pricing,Yes. So what does it say of market and wanting to do it right for the bees? Cannot have it both ways and go on now can we. I do know that clean sustainable beekeeping must become mainstream again for industry to survive the long haul. So questions to you in final is will it still be called organic once mainstream is reached? Then being mainstream will all the certs and fees be necessary when other with treatments one would think for human health reasons should be watched more and to me then become the cert and fees one to keep control over. Just food for thought..... Regards :>) Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 17:01:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen: Small cell works for some, but hasn't caught on in a big way with commercial operators, although many have tinkered with it. Lack of scientific confirmation has held this one back, as has the religious fervour of some proponents, and the seeming total absence -- even after many years now -- of any large commercially viable examples. Reply: Well, well Allen what can I say, Dr Levin used to walk up and down the halls and mumble "Why does it have to be the comb...." Isn't the the hardest thing to get commercial to change and we are all a bunch of hard heads you know generation to generation not wanting to give up anything. Also, there has to be a period of doing and watching and seeing how things go with the wind too, you could say. and that is know also in commercial beekeeping groups with the blow and go type! As for research, well it has been said if it works then it will stand the test of time, so I guess we are seeing both the return to SC and the stoppage of LC with a failed experiment of the 1933/34 Paris convention of sorts for getting the bigger is better movement going, for when things then go bad, does that mean the experiment failed? any way Allen my dear friend, you get the drift I think. So what else you thinking? Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 20:25:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee & All, Actually one large beekeeper is interested in Dee's formula. I am not sure if Dee saw when I posted about his going to small cell so will post again. Perhaps Dee has talked to Dave Mendez (Florida large commercial beekeeper) about small cell. I first heard of his intentions last fall by email from a lurker on BEE-L. I made a point at the ABF convention to speak with Dave. We spoke at length and here is what Dave said. He was converting his entire operation to 4.9mm in two steps. 1. put all hives on 5.1 mm 2. further reduce to 4.9mm Like I said in the earlier post if I was in the area of Dave I would document his success or failure for a bee magazine. Because I am not able to do such because of distance perhaps a beekeeper with writing skills in Florida might approach Dave about documenting his outfit changing from large cell to small cell. Tip: All you would really need to get is the data and pictures as I believe for such an important story either editor would help write the article or make it readable. If they are not able then I would help free of charge . I have read and helped many other beekeepers on articles they have written for bee magazines. I told Dave about the small cell short cut but he said he was going to follow Dee Lusby's directions posted at beesource to the letter. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 20:59:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chris & All, Chris said: I don't think fumidil can be used as a preventative I know that many beekeepers ( none with CCD problems last year) simply add fumidil to feed once a year ( some twice) but I am not sure *preventative* is the right word. Nosema can be found in most commercial operations by microscope but not at a level considered as harmful. In fact many if not most of the things detected in the CCD hives can also be found in healthy hives at anytime of the year but of course at small levels. I have always found nosema in beekeepers bees which do not treat. I consider nosema which can *only* be detected with a microscope to be low level. If the bees are not under stress,flying and no midgut discolor or inflammation then the beekeeper might pass on a treatment and recheck in a few months. I have with success ( no hive death) but will never be sure of the loss of honey production. Sometimes after a hard winter one in every 10 sample bees might have midgut problems but in a month of flying its hard to find midgut problems. I am not sure what it takes to increase nosema in bees OR make the level reduce. Stress I am sure of as well as hive confinement increase nosema levels. ,> It may prevent it multiplying as rapidly where it is already present (therefore too late to prevent) and so be of some use, Fumidil has always eliminated the midgut symptoms when used and backed up by my field tests. Like I said earlier fumidil and I go back decades. > Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets In-Reply-To: <002001c78d22$02925f20$19bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob: I told Dave about the small cell short cut but he said he was going to follow Dee Lusby's directions posted at beesource to the letter. Reply: Well Bob, what can I say as Ed and I did go down in two steps. Fist to 5.1mm (5.0mm - 5.1mm) on foundation I made by hand myself due to availability of same. And then after 8 years we hit a wall and decided for the bee's sake to go down again fine tuning to 4.9mm which was .1mm smaller or so and many thought us insane to go into the pit of fire with size related AHB and reap the rewards for doing so. If Dave does it in waves, his bees technically should get better, and if he doesn't hesitate for the next round going smaller already knowing it needs to be done where we had to find out the hard way, wouldn't think there would be a problem fine tuning, what with clean wax again in the hives and downsizing to gain strengths. So how you doing Bob on your project to 4.9mm. Need help? You know in the past I invited you here to see what Ed and I had and were doing. Offer still there FWIW if needed not that we wouldn't fight like cats and dogs whole time. Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 00:11:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chris & All, >the cycle will go on unless you break it by providing clean combs or foundation/strips. A old method for riding comb of nosema contamination without replacing comb is to treat a stack of boxes with 80% acetic acid. Place a pad (old rags) on top of the stack and pour a quarter pint of the acid. seal for a week. Air dry before using. 80% acetic acid can be found at most photo supply stores sold as "stop bath" or "glacial acetic acid" The above is also supposed to stop European foulbrood from reoccuring.. I have never tried the above but is spoke of being widely used in Europe. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 22:37:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> Good genetics was the big hope, but it turns out that the mite tolerant strains do not measure -- yet -- up for many jobs, since they lack some of the qualities necessary for profitability in some important commercial applications. C'mon Allen, you're generalizing a bit here. I've got mite-tolerant bees that are the best bees I've ever seen. Great in almonds, great for buildup for nuc sales and splitting, the best honey producers. Every colony gets trucked at least 6 times a year, and are exposed to the same kinds of problems that other commercial bees are (except largest holding yards are maybe 150 colonies). Plenty of exposure to every mite, disease, and pest. We get subfreezing winters and over 100° summers. What qualities do you feel that they are lacking? I'll admit, they don't cook me breakfast : ) But they sure pay the bills! Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 18:56:38 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Imagine, if all of a sudden, every beekeeper were to become organic, then the differential would evaporate, and the formerly niche market would be flooded, and become the mass market, driving prices down. This assumes that the organic and un-organic producers' costs are about the same. Are they? Organic farming is costlier that big ag, hence their prices are higher. I don't know that organic beekeepers and farmers have a higher profit margin. Do they? >>a mass adoption of "organic" production methods would be bad news for the current group. How about that? It would be grand if everyone went organic! :) It's not possible for most. It's certainly not possible for me. The 2-mile radius around my apiary would have to have only organic forage. That's an impossibility in my suburban environment. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 09:49:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: > Place a pad (old rags) on top of the stack and pour a quarter pint of the > acid. seal for a week. Air dry before using. Recommendation I have always seen is quarter pint per box. > 80% acetic acid can be found at most photo supply stores sold as "stop > bath" > or "glacial acetic acid" 80% is not the same as glacial (100%). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid > The above is also supposed to stop European foulbrood from > reoccuring..Best wishes 80% acetic is effective against everything (on combs) except AFB, but there may be a small risk that EFB could be sealed under wax or propolis and thus escape the treatment. For light EFB the shook swarm treatment seems the most promising, with burning probably the best option with heavy infections. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 11:57:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glacial acetic acid is 100% and to give 80% it should be diluted 4 parts acid to 1 part water Ruary ----- Original Message ----- > 80% acetic acid can be found at most photo supply stores sold as "stop > bath" > or "glacial acetic acid" > ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 11:46:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: 3 frame observation hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>If it is the objective of having an observation hive to observe doing what comes narurally, including gathering and using propolis and making swarming preparations wouldn't it be better to find an observation hive that suits the bees rather than vice versa? This would be the case if I was setting up an ob hive for myself. I have to set up an ob hive for a nature center that gets a lot of visiting children. Their primary interest is to excitedly find the marked queen and then quickly move off to another exhibit... Children had a longer attention span when I was little or may be they were less high on sucrose... :)) Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 05:27:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Clipping wings of queen In-Reply-To: <001301c78c6e$c95c2960$ad25fea9@jps.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A lot has been said about marking queens. What has been the experience with clipping the wings of queens. Last year, was just learning, clipped the wings of two queens, then promptly lost them in the grass at my feet. I had just mowed the grass, open field situation, and went over the entire area three times. I never found either queen. Took a lot of ribbing about that from some of my bee buddies. Anyway, have come to the conclusion that I need to use a muff made of netting to go over my hands (and queen) until I really get the hang of hanging onto the queens until I'm ready to replace them back into the hive. What are your thoughts, and experiences? Mike in LA --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 05:54:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: standards for organic success In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote: The big problem the organic movement has had is the various factions can never seem to agree on anything. ............... It can mean just about anything you want it to, hence it becomes meaningless Right on Peter. Until there can be a national concensus of standards, embraced by the entire organic community, the word "organic" has very little value except to those who don't understand the discord within the organic movement. Those who don't understand the discord would seem to apply their own definition to the word, and the product, whether or not that product meets the standards they have set in their minds. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 09:02:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2 May 2007 18:12:13 -0500, Bob Harrison wrote: >Despite all the crying foul against U.S. commercial beekeeping practices >there has not been one case of chemical contamination from U.S. beekeepers! >Many thought the three year honey watch put in place by the FDA would find >many problems but was not the case. Instead of U.S. problems the watch >turned up problems with China and Argentine imported honey. Guess it depends on what one defines as contamination. Its widely known that the EPA levels for Amitraz, Fluvalinate and Comaphous are high enough most beekeepers can skate by. Does that mean then the honey is not contaminated? My point is simple that many beekeeper practices have been flying under the radar until CCD came along and beekeeping is everywhere in the media. Yesterdays AP wire story on CCD as of this morning was picked up by 320 newspapers around the USA. I beleive that the American public will not be impressed when they learn of the typical formulation of Big Honey and the fact that the "typical" beehive in the USA is full of antibitotics and miticides wether its legal levels or not. We all know that better practices are possible as many are doing it. The problem is what is the overall perception of the public going to be? Sure there are plenty of examples of keepers using more restraint and utlizing soft treatments etc. But that does not represent the majority of the hives in the USA under management. Almost every major researchers statements about CCD include references to hive inputs and stressful practices as a source of concern. How then do we have people defending the OVERALL commercial beekeeping practices as if they were sustainable? If the overall commercial beekeeping picture is so bright and rosy when then have the losses been going on for years? Sounds like denial to me. Front page of LA TIMES today 5/3/07 Cleaning up China's honey An entrepreneur meets resistance in changing unhealthful practices. By Don Lee, Times Staff Writer May 3, 2007 http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-chinahoney3may03,0,2147834.story?coll=la-home- headlines "Wang knew that chloramphenicol was illegal, but he said he had no idea that penicillin was another type of antibiotic and that its use also had been restricted. He says he stores the honey he collects in iron and plastic containers. The government doesn't care what we do," he said, squatting under a tree as the sun was setting over the hills of Fufeng, an area redolent of apples and peppers where residents say the annual per capita income is about $400. Wang says he sells his honey to dealers who make their rounds in the woodlands. Some of these traders will bring antibiotics for the keepers, but it's just as easy for beekeepers to call a local drugstore and have someone deliver chloramphenicol or other medicines they request. "The reason these farmers use antibiotics is simple. It is very cheap and effective," said Wang Fengzhong, an expert on China's honey industry at the Chinese Academy of Agricultural Sciences in Beijing. No one knows what percentage of Chinese beekeepers still use antibiotics. In recent years, more farmers have switched to herbal medicines, said Li Chaohui, vice general manager of Huakang Foreign Trade Honey Product Co. in Fufeng. Li says his company collects honey from local farmers and sells it to factories along China's coast, which are supposed to test for contaminants, filter the honey and package and label it for export. Li thinks 30% of Chinese honey comes from bees treated with antibiotics, but Sun Baoli believes the figure is as high as 70%." ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 09:11:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank Peter & Ruary for the input. I think I would go with these guys recommendation rather than mine as I have only read about its use. Dilute the glacial and only use a quarter pint* to a box*. I would think acetic acid would really stink at 80% as similar to vinegar but vinegar is only 5%. Does the smell linger in the box or dissipate quickly? bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:24:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Clipping wings of queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike wrote: > Took a lot of ribbing about that from some of my bee buddies. Anyway, have come to the conclusion that I need to use a muff I think everybody has lost queens marking them in the field. I have had them get out of my hand when I was trying to get them out of the queen cage; oddly enough, they usually right back to exactly the spot where they escaped. If you are fast you can recapture her! I prefer to do it inside the closed cab of the truck. Then if she flies, she goes to the windshield. Or, if you buy queens you can mark and clip them before you leave home. A tip for getting the bees out of the cage: take a spare queen cage and place it over the opening on the cage with bees. Half the bees will run into the spare cage. You let them go and repeat until just the queen is is one of the cages. Sometimes the queen will refuse to come out of a cage. You can slowly lower the cage into a glass of water and she'll climb up and out. Clipping should be just a short nick off the tip. I have seen store-bought queens with wings clipped down to the stump. This is wrong. Finally: if you raise queens you can hatch the cells in cages and mark them before they get mated. (Don't clip the virgin queens!) I used to think this wouldn't work, but I can assure you that it does. And this way, you know you got the queen you wanted and not some stray. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 07:52:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Acetic Acid In-Reply-To: <002301c78d71$e548e8d0$2101a8c0@DF9MK81J> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ruary Rudd wrote: Glacial acetic acid is 100% and to give 80% it should be diluted 4 parts acid to 1 part water Ruary ----- Original Message ----- > 80% acetic acid can be found at most photo supply stores sold as >"stop bath" or "glacial acetic acid" Look at the lable to ensure the percentage dilution of the acid. And don't forget, when mixing acid with water, pour the acid into the water. To do otherwise might cause eruption of the liquid out of the container and onto you. Mike --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 08:52:01 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ... as I am commercial and one of the few that sell in bulk and in bulk I > have always had to bear the common price over the years or other as > offered.... So to me what you say makes sense! Am I in that odd ball > nitch? with bulk pricing,Yes. So what does it say of market and wanting to > do it right for the bees? Cannot have it both ways and go on now can we. I thought you were saying some time back that you were getting about five times the going rate in bulk, but that 9/11 ended that. At any rate I don't know what your production is, but your operation is, by all accounts, an unusual case, and I think it is fair to say that few, if any commercial beekeepers would actually class you as a commercial. You are very much in a class of your own. IMO, anyhow. > I do know that clean sustainable beekeeping must become mainstream again > for industry to survive the long haul. I have to agree, at least for it to grow and prosper. The part driven by pollination money can make many unhealthy compromises for a long time and still keep going somehow -- unless the price of almonds craters, which it must someday. > So questions to you in final is will it still be called organic once > mainstream is reached? Good question. I think so. The idea, in name at least, has gone mainstream, and national organic food distributors (oxymoron anyone?) are fast-growing businesses with great prospects on the stock market, last I looked. When Wal-Mart goes organic, which it is, then what are we to think? > Then being mainstream will all the certs and fees be necessary when other > with treatments one would think for human health reasons should be watched > more and to me then become the cert and fees one to keep control over. This has been coming a long time. With big buyers and fancy labs that can spot a few stray molecules in a swimming pool, and circling lawyers, all the big suppliers, including beekeepers will have to increasingly clean up their act. Interestingly, though, the small, local guys are not nearly as well monitored, and buying local at the market is a matter of trust. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 07:52:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: > Interesting John Miller would be your idol beekeeper. Unless he changed last > year ( California almond fever) John has been killing off (or selling blow > bees) each winter for as long as I have known him. He installs new packages > in spring. He has spoke about his methods at ABF meetings many times and to > me directly. He told me he never treats those packages and the last time we > spoke has never treated for varroa. John Miller's home is in Calif, a few miles from me. He summers in South Dakota. John sold blow bees 15 years ago. He no longer depopulates--he runs all his bees into almonds. He is one of the most state-of-the-art beekeepers I know. He tests for mites regularly, and is very careful with treatments. He is expert at varroa management. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 08:03:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: <20070502.115647.764.1034894@webmail25.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar This assumes that the organic and un-organic producers' costs are about the same. Are they? Organic farming is costlier that big ag, hence their prices are higher. I don't know that organic beekeepers and farmers have a higher profit margin. Do they? Reply: I see difference, but to me the costs for un-organic producer's costs are higher, much higher, though I am sure others would argue differently. Also once changed over, to me the costs for big agric would be smaller, giving higher return and less work. Yes we have a higher profit margin and easier to pull in in tight years and take it to the wall. continuing: It would be grand if everyone went organic! :) It's not possible for most. It's certainly not possible for me. The 2-mile radius around my apiary would have to have only organic forage. That's an impossibility in my suburban environment. Reply: Yes it would be grand if everyone went organic and all treatments stopped into a beehive so one wouldn't want to sort what is bought and sold like done today. As for the 2 mile radius in non- urban areas not so bad for bees can sort and don't willingly forage that which they know is bad nor return from same, however that assumes it's not in the makeup of the plant which nowadays is getting worse that can be carried back in the pollen mainly, to give hive detrimental results later in out of mode, off season kills, when the then stored pollen is eaten in brooding up, as much as 1-2-3 years later FWIW. Put the two together here like being in bed together and it's a no win for the bees and our industry too! Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 09:10:39 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Small cell works for some, but hasn't caught on in a big way with >> commercial operators, although many have tinkered with it. > Isn't the the hardest thing to get commercial to change Not the commercials I know. They are all over every new idea. > As for research, well it has been said if it works then it will stand the > test of time, so I guess we are seeing both the return to SC and the > stoppage of LC with a failed experiment of the 1933/34 Paris convention of > sorts for getting the bigger is better movement going, for when things > then go bad, does that mean the experiment failed? There have been many fads in foundation over the years. Some were for a cell intermediate between worker and drone, for honey, and some were for other purposes. Some enlarged combs were for easier extracting, since it is harder to get honey out of smaller cells. I hear there is currently a fad towards tiny cells. Personally, I am against foundation altogether. I am quite sure you will never convince me that bees have been upsized. I think you know that by now. There are just to many diverse things going on out there for that to have happened. I do agree, though that it is a shame that brood combs have been taken to the large sizes they have, and that this has had adverse effects on bees forced to live in them. > any way Allen my dear friend, you get the drift I think. So what else you > thinking? Well, I'm thinking that you have certainly challenged everyone's assumptions and had a positive effect on our beekeeping, and kept us well entertained throughout. As for whether your theories hold water and will be proved out, I wonder, but what you are doing certainly works for you, and some others. I'd sure like to get a better picture, though, of the extent of the adoption of small cell and see a list of success stories that involve more than a small circle of vocal devotees. We'll be watching Bob, and I'm sure he will give it a fair shot, and tell us all, (so you'd better keep a watch on him and make sure he stays on the path :) ) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 09:17:24 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Good genetics was the big hope, but it turns out that the mite tolerant >> strains do not measure -- yet -- up for many jobs, since they lack some >> of the qualities necessary for profitability in some important commercial >> applications. > C'mon Allen, you're generalizing a bit here. I've got mite-tolerant bees Didn't you just tell me that you treat? Or am I getting forgetful? > What qualities do you feel that they are lacking? Well, I don't personally know, but this is the buzz in commercial circles. These guys try every stock under the sun and decide what they like. For example, though, the Russian stock failed to make a huge hit due to slow build-up for almonds, and muted response to simulative feeding. I am just repeating what I have heard. I am sure Bob will have more to say on this. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:30:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All, > Its widely known that the EPA levels for Amitraz, Fluvalinate and Comaphous are high enough most beekeepers can skate by. Does that mean then the honey is not contaminated? I would have to say yes! Maybe not honey *you* might want to consume but the honey does meet the standards set for allowable amounts of the above chemicals deemed at low enough levels not to be a health concern. Atrazine is in my own water county supply and the reason I choose to use bottled water but the water department says not to worry the water is within limits. I personally would bet NONE of the three chemicals above can be found in *any* amount in the honey I sell (and eat) as I use none of those and have changed all my comb from the days I did use some of those. >I beleive that the American public will not be impressed when they learn of the typical formulation of Big Honey and the fact that the "typical" beehive in the USA is full of antibitotics and miticides wether its legal levels or not. I am not sure of the meaning of Big Honey? If you mean packers I agree they need to check closer on contaminates in honey. Especially from outside out borders. Chloramphenical was a nasty antibiotic. How long had China honey been contamianted with the nasty antibiotic? Year? decades? We need to deal with the facts and stick with realty. The fact is after the antibiotic contamination from China & Argentina was found. All honey coming in & U.S. honey was put on a three year watch and samples were picked up from about every producer whcih sells in stores. Mine was one of the first and picked up by the health department. Passed with flying colors. A jar was picked up a month ago and passed again. They were testing all samples for the three chemicals Brian listed. China honey: > Some of these traders will bring antibiotics for the keepers, but it's just as easy for beekeepers to call a local drugstore and have someone deliver chloramphenicol or other medicines they request. >Li thinks 30% of Chinese honey comes from bees treated with antibiotics, but Sun Baoli believes the figure is as high as 70%." China has serious problems with its food supply. If we keep importing more and more food from China we will in my opinion share in their problems. Many beekeepers think if a serious honey contamination happens that it will be found in imported honey. Packers are scared and have increased testing but all I have talked to worry a load might slip through. In my opinion our public water supply in many areas of the U.S. is far more contaminated (pesticides) than even honey from China with small amounts of an antibiotic. Sincerely, Bob Harrison U.S. honey producer -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:51:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, Thanks for the update! John was still selling blow bees within the last decade but glad he moved into real beekeeping with all its problems.. The industry needs beekeepers like the Miller family. Many still depopulate all their hives each fall and repopulate in spring ( like they have for decades). I never considered those beekeepers as beekeepers but bee havors but understood the economics of the method. Think about the method for a minute. Set the hive on location. Shake in package. No treatments. super & remove honey crop. depopulate and go through boxes. >From Gieco TV commercial: "So easy a cave man could do it!" When varroa hit John thought his method was the way we should all keep bees in the north.( From personal conversation at ABF convention in Norfolk). Let the package producers worry about varroa. I believe John would be still selling blow bees if he had not caught California almond fever. The current high price of almond pollination has changed the way many outfits operate. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 11:13:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Shawn Hoefer Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: <028d01c78cd0$7bc283e0$0101a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello, Hate for my first post to the list to be disagreeing with a long-term member who obviously knows his bees, but I have to chime in as this is something I'm passionate about. Organic can be sustainable! Now that I've said that, I'll agree with Allen... sort of... it's not that organic isn't sustainable The organic market is not sustainable. I'm going organic... as organic as I can get (I have no intention of being certified, but that's another story/rant)... but I'm doing it for myself and my family and if there's a little left over when we're done, we'll sell it at a farmer's market somewhere or store it for dry times. This is sustainable. If I were to choose to go commercial with my product, I could not keep up or compete without charging the outrageous prices or looking to non-organic means to boost production and extraction. That is no sustainable. Did any of that make sense? Shawn http://www.laffing-horse.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 12:15:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Did I Say Anything About Organic? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >If you choose to use my ideas as a springboard to a different subject and >go on a tangent, then fine and good, but please do not argue with things I >did not say or imply and attribute them to me. Please go back and read >what I wrote and what you werote and think about it. I really don't understand what you're saying here. Is there something you believe that you don't want to come out and say? What did I attribute to you that you object to? Whether you meant to or not, whether it was implied or not, your message suggested things that--apart from clarification--I object to, and so I said what I said. Specifically, I object to 500+ hives, almond pollination, and a full-time living as a universal (or even generalized) standard of success. I, for one, don't aspire to any of those things, and I don't think that makes me any less successful or any less a model of success (although plenty of other things do). And why should it? Moreover--and this is critical--I think those standards *tend* to run contrary to organic management principles--as one example of where the above definition of success runs awry. (Even if we want to define organic as a set of rules, there's at least some foundation in principle to those rules.) This list discussed the study comparing organic and conventional rapeseed not too long ago. Several people pointed out that the difference in the number of foragers could very well be due to systemic differences (i.e. big picture stuff) and not to any difference in plants from gene- altered seed. In any case, there are systemic differences, and in that study the organic system (as a whole) was favorable. My point is that beekeeping success is more consistent with some kinds of agricultural systems (including distribution and marketing systems) than others. Is organic beekeeping success consistent with large-scale operation; extensive, capital-intensive management and the correlated mass-marketing; large monocultures and the corresponding absence of agricultural diversity? Of course, the answer is that it depends on the specific circumstances, but in general, strong arguments can be made that these things aren't complementary. To define success by these things, then, *could* mean defining success as engaging in and supporting those things which undermine beekeeping success. That's a lousy definition of success. That's like growing two hundred bushel/acre corn and disregarding the loss of two thousand bushels/acre of topsoil to erosion. Growing corn that way is foolish, short-sighted, irresponsible "success," which is no real success at all. Does that compare to beekeeping? I'm not making the case that it does, but I am objecting to any definition of success that rules that possibility out and implicitly makes the counter-argument. A good definition of success won't be self-defeating. Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 12:39:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> Its widely known that the EPA levels for Amitraz, Fluvalinate and Comaphous are high enough most beekeepers can skate by. Does that mean then the honey is not contaminated? To put this in perspective, we are talking about parts per billion in a product that for most folks is a condiment. Speaking of tetracycline, one beekeeper pointed out that to get enough of it to treat an infection, you'd have to eat a semi-load of honey. Further, most of our food and beverage products have detectable levels of chemicals. This is not good but it may be unavoidable. In the following report, more than 60% of the food products had detectable residues, but only 0.2% (two tenths of one percent) exceeded legal limits -- that's 25 samples out of more than ten thousand tested. * * * A total of 10,154 fresh and processed fruit and vegetable samples, 668 soybean samples, 306 soybean rust/aphid survey samples, 674 wheat samples, 746 milk samples, 369 heavy cream samples, 704 pork samples, 378 bottled water samples, and 750 drinking water samples were analyzed for various pesticides including insecticides, herbicides, and fungicides. Overall, 73 percent of fresh fruit and vegetables and 61 percent of processed fruit and vegetables showed detectable residues. More residues were detected in fresh produce than in processed products and grains. Residues detected in dairy products and pork samples were primarily lowlevel residues of unavoidable environmental contaminants including DDE p,p' and dieldrin. Additionally, low levels of diphenylamine were detected in dairy products. Excluding drinking water, 34 percent of samples tested contained no detectable pesticides [parent compound and metabolite(s) are combined], 30 percent contained 1 pesticide, and 36 percent contained more than 1 pesticide. Low levels of environmental contaminants were detected in cantaloupe, cauliflower, green beans, heavy cream, lettuce, milk, pork, watermelon, and winter squash at concentrations well below levels that trigger regulatory actions. Excluding samples for which no tolerances are set (bottled water and drinking water), residues exceeding the tolerance were detected in 0.2 percent of the 13,621 samples tested in 2005 – 25 samples with 1 residue each. Residues with no established tolerance were found in 4.2 percent of the samples (570 samples with 1 residue each, and 2 samples with 2 residues each). In most cases, these residues were detected at very low levels and some residues may have resulted from spray drift or crop rotations. In finished drinking water, PDP detected low levels (measured in parts per trillion) of some pesticides, primarily widely used herbicides. Forty-eight different residues were detected in the untreated intake water and 43 in the treated water. The majority of pesticides, metabolites, and isomers included in the PDP testing profiles were not detected. None of the detections in the finished water samples exceeded established EPA MCL or HA levels or established FAO criteria. Pesticide Data Program Annual Summary Calendar Year 2005 www.ams.usda.gov/pdp ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 12:39:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Did I Say Anything About Organic? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2 May 2007 11:29:17 -0400, Allen Dick wrote: >Commercial success over time is the gold standard, and It seems to me like you're tying success to sustainability ("over time"). But then you seemed to object to tying organic success to sustainability. I think success and sustainability are properly intertwined in either case. Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:28:46 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?utf-8?B?QXJpIFNlcHDDpGzDpA==?= Subject: Re: Clipping wings of queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you drop a wing clipped queen in beeyard with tall grass its difficult to find her. Let the bees help. Shake young bees from some frames to the same spot and around ( If you are lucky you don't step on her) and wait them to gather. The queen will be in one of those balls of bees. Have tried this only few times but success rate this far 100 % Ari Seppälä Finland ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:13:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? Comments: To: allen dick In-Reply-To: <00b501c78d92$9ecd3a20$0301a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen: I think it is fair to say that few, if any commercial beekeepers would actually class you as a commercial. You are very much in a class of your own. IMO, anyhow. Reply: Probably, as we gave up most the normal work associated with what most all the other guys do and call commercial in their feed lot operations for the most part, and I am certainly now continuing that different path choosen we took a long time ago. Guess you are right sorta puts me in a different category for field management. But I got bees and healthy ones too and not the problems you all see. You are more then welcome to your opinion as I am mine, but sooner or later we will have to meet in a center somehow, but where and how is still to be played out. Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 12:38:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets Comments: To: allen dick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, >Well, I don't personally know, but this is the buzz in commercial circles. These guys try every stock under the sun and decide what they like. The speaker at the ABF convention in Austin on Russian bees is a bit shy to post on BEE_L but we had a discussion on the subject by email. His conclusion on the Russian was (and is also mine) that with the Russian bee you will without doubt need to treat less for varroa and the bee does not seem effected by tracheal mites. We agreed on most things two beekeepers which had experience with a race of bee would except for two points. Maybe the beekeeper will post especially if I have not got his position in the discussion correct. His position as I understand it: 1 the Russian bee will produce as much honey as the Italian bee. my position: Maybe in his bees but was not what I saw in four years of testing but with selective breeding perhaps some strains will His position: The shut down in spring with any adverse weather (while the Italian bee is still laying eggs) did not cause his Russian bees to be out produced by the Italians in the study he cited. my position: A week of loss queen laying cost me around 14,000 forager bees for the honey crop ( 2000 a day times 7 days.) Which in my opinion hurt my honey production. There were many things I liked about the Russian bee. The two things I didn't like above are the main reason why the Russian bee is not in all my yards. >For example, though, the Russian stock failed to make a huge hit due to slow build-up for almonds, and muted response to simulative feeding. I think the above is an honest assessment. Jerry Brown ( Adee family) used a Russian cross in 2005 and seemed happy with the cross. I do not know what the cross was. Both Jerry & Richard Adee requeen yearly so I do not know if still using Russian genetics in their queen line. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 11:59:05 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > But I got bees and healthy ones too and not the problems you all see. That is for sure. > You are more then welcome to your opinion as I am mine, but sooner or > later we will have to meet in a center somehow, but where and how is still > to be played out. Exactly. I wonder how your bees would do in Kenya-style (topbar) hives. Have you tried that at all, or are you totally committed to 100% foundation? There is or should be a huge market for organic cut comb honey. I know there is in Europe. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 12:08:50 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Did I Say Anything About Organic? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > please do not argue with things I did not say or imply and attribute them > to me. > I really don't understand what you're saying here. Apparently not. > Is there something you believe that you don't want to come out and say? No. I say exactly what I mean, and I object to having people try to second-guess and read between lines to find something that sets them off, then argue with their own imaginings and attribute them to me. > ...your message suggested things that--apart from clarification--I object > to. I give up. I am not responsible for what my messages suggest to you. I do take responsibility, however, for what I do actually say and appreciate it when people actually read my posts carefully, understand them, reflect on them, and then point out where I am mistaken, things I missed, and where I could learn something. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 14:23:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Quotes, Quotes, Quotes, Quotes, Quotes, Quotes, Quotes, Quotes, Quotes, Quotes, Quotes, Quotes, MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND!? Somebody PLEASE explain this to me! >From the "Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions": Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts may be rejected without comment or notice.=20 Sincerely, Aaron Morris, BEE-L Owner/Editor/Moderator/Janitor ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 11:26:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: U.S. Researcher Studies Use of Honey to Treat Diabetic Foot Ulcers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII UW Study Tests Topical Honey as a Treatment for Diabetic Ulcers University of Wisconsin (USA), 5/2/2007 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/05/us-researcher-studies-use-of-honey-to.html The sore on Catrina Hurlburt's leg simply wouldn't heal. Complications from a 2002 car accident left Hurlburt, a borderline diabetic, with recurring cellulitis and staph infections. One of those infections developed into a troublesome open sore that, despite the use of oral antibiotics, continued to fester for nearly eight months. Experts believe that treating wounds with honey has tremendous potential for the approximately 200 million people in the world with diabetes, 15 percent of whom will develop an ulcer, usually because of impaired sensation in their feet. Then Hurlburt's physician, Jennifer Eddy of UW Health's Eau Claire Family Medicine Clinic, suggested she try using topical honey. Within a matter of months, the sore had healed completely… With funding provided by the Wisconsin Partnership Fund for Health and the American Academy of Family Physicians Foundation, Eddy is currently conducting the first randomized, double-blind controlled trial of honey for diabetic ulcers… ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:08:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Did I Say Anything About Organic? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen, If you object to something I said, please specify. If I incorrectly attributed something to you, what is it? Just tell me! This reminds me of your heated exchange with Bob over what some researcher really said somewhere. Except this time, you're refusing to show your hand. Why? Am I unworthy of correction/instruction? What did I falsely attribute to you? If you can't tell me what, I don't think I or the list should trouble itself over it. Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 20:30:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob asked: > Does the smell linger in the box or dissipate quickly? It is very pungent and you need to be very careful if doing a large number of boxes on a still day as the fumes can be overpowering. However, the smell disperses quite rapidly and, surprisingly, does not seem to put bees off - I have had a swarm move into a couples of boxes that were at the end of their one week treatment but which I had not opened up to air (they found a gap between the boxes). I was amazed that they could cope with the remaining fumes, but they seemed quite happy! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 16:23:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Did I Say Anything About Organic? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Brown wrote: > This list discussed the study comparing organic and conventional > rapeseed not too long ago. (snip) In any case, there are systemic differences, and in that > study the organic system (as a whole) was favorable. Only if you are only looking at percent increase when pollinated. The organic had no increase and the GM self pollinating crops had 33% increase. So the self pollinating crops benefited from pollination. That is where the anti-GM folk jumped in and twisted the data. If they were honest and included the rest of the data, they would have to report all the non-organic crops had higher yields than the organic even without pollination. The organic crop also suffered from pests. The organic fields were much smaller than the other fields, had other crops/nectar sources around them, while some of the GM fields were surrounded by forest and had no pollinators. They still out produced the organic fields. That self pollinators benefit from pollination is not new. Nor is the finding that organic crops have smaller yields because of pest damage. If organic actually increased yields over other methods, everyone would be organic. Unfortunately it is not sustainable. There was a time when mankind was completely organic and enjoyed sustainable famine. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 16:41:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Did I Say Anything About Organic? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I forget what Allen said that Eric thought he said that Allen didn’t say. Allen Did say that he says exactly what he means and I take that for granted, although I must admit I sometimes think I might be misunderstanding a few posts here and there. I have always found Allen Dick’s contributions to be well reasoned, insightful, non-presumptuous, and well written. I also agree with the thrust of what Eric is saying about the measure of success. In fact I find it right on. I also find his argument quite understandable. I suggest that we take what lessons we can from this exchange and move on to the substance of what each as to say, while acknowledging the potential for misunderstanding even the most precise language. Regarding success, it occurs to me that it is in the eye of the beholder. It most certainly relates to what your goals are, and I doubt any two beekeepers have the same set of those. Regarding Organic, perhaps a new term should be used relating to beekeeping. How about Organicishness, you know, to sort of indicate a degree of attainment in the pursuit of the unattainable. One other thing, while I’m at it. Would Organicishness even be such a big deal if it weren’t for the fact that we have gotten so far away from what that might be? Not just in beekeeping, but in agriculture in general? If there is an organic movement, does it really matter if we all agree on a precise definition as long as it results in a general trend away from dependence on things that have unaccounted for costs to human and environmental health? Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 14:15:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? Comments: To: allen dick In-Reply-To: <017b01c78dac$bf5fb3c0$0301a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen: Been there and done that with TBHs and see nothing wrong with them. they also good for cut-comb honey, just like langs are FWIW. Just the difference between vertical vs horizontal set-ups of which the bees don't seem to mind either, at all, IMPOV. Perhaps not being opposed to them is why so many on the organic list do TBHs or both, though I mostly do langs. So do you do or have some TBHs now? Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 18:13:35 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: 3-deep broodnest. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee, Confirm for me, if you would, you don't use queen excluders over your unlimited brood nests, right? Do you practice 'nectar management' (manage colonies to keep nectar out of the brood nests)? Also, what swarm rates do you experience and how do you raise new queens? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 17:34:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: 3-deep broodnest. In-Reply-To: <20070503.124643.1953.206306@webmail07.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar No I do not use barbeque grills over my broodnest as I want the queens to have all the space they can have to lay and from time to time the queens do come up into the middle of the 4th box, which really makes for a nice convient split or brood for giving to a weaker hive to beef it up. Also I practice unlimited broodnest management like Farrar used to do with the bees up the center gut with all the honey and pollen to the sides and bottom they can do and stand, which makes for good security in poorer drought years and is one reason I came thru last year with bees as I had extra backup besides feeding practically the whole crop back to keep and hold the bees while others couldn't as it can get costly if not prepared. So a good 6 frames of honey/pollen feed stores or more per broodnest box is not uncommon. As for swarm rates, since Housel Positioning I really haven't seen swarming much in the bee yards I have (30), or signs or indications of it, and yet prior to repositioning combs and facing in order, 10 or more swarms per yard was common and the norm per year. But who would ever think that right and left side placement of comb could do that, so I could get above the 3rd box to 4-5 high, with better drawn out combs even. Now I just fight our desert climate of which last 7 have been official drought, but yet the bees keep coming slowing forward and I keep getting more combs back to have something to work with, and somehow it seems I am still here with bees to work.....Not that I am a so-called killer bee woman in area, while the men work with the gentler stuff. Such tuff woman's work! Regards, Dee Also, what swarm rates do you experience and how do you raise new queens? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 18:09:26 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>The organic market is not sustainable. It was apparently sustainable before chemical fertilizers and pesticides/herbicites were introduced. :)) Going back even further, the founding fathers in the US thrived on and lived long on what must have been organic food. Anybody know if any man-produced chemicals were in agricultural use back then? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 22:15:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Anybody know if any man-produced chemicals were in agricultural use back then? As people settled into established societies they began looking for ways to protect their crops. Sulfur was used as an insecticide long before 500 BC. Toxic formulations of lead, arsenic and mercury were applied to crops in 1400s. In the 1600s nicotine compounds were extracted from tobacco leaves and used as insecticides. By the mid 1800s, the heads of chrysanthemum flowers were used to obtain pyrethrum and rotenone was extracted from the derris plant. In the 1930s the crop yields in the United States were comparable to those of India, England, and Argentina. Since the 1950s the use of petroleum-derived pesticides, fertilizers and a host of governmental policies have vaulted the U.S. into the biggest farming economy in the world. Today, fewer farmers feed more people than ever before in the history of food production. from: Commercial Agriculture: Facts and Figures by J. Robert Hatherill, Ph.D, Environmental Studies Program, University of California at Santa Barbara ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 23:43:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: <20070503.124643.1953.206305@webmail07.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: > Going back even further, > the founding fathers in the US thrived on and lived long on what must > have been organic food. Google up the average life expectancy in at the time of the FFs and compare that to now. Thrived is not accurate and lived long is certainly an error. Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 00:08:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot McPherson Organization: McPherson Family Farms Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: <767640.21766.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organic beekeeping is far less costly than standard commercial practices. Less fuel costs, less medication costs, less lumber and wax replacement costs, healtier bees that don't need to be replaced as often and therefore build up faster since not new installations every year. I can't see the reasoning that organic beekeeping is costlier. That's a false statement in every sense of the word and and every sense of economic sensibility. Scot McPherson McPherson Family Farms Davenport, IA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 22:16:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter: Today, fewer farmers feed more people than ever before in the history of food production. Reply: So what happens if that falls apart due to insufficient bees to pollenate? or won't that happen you think due to genetically modifying plants... wouldn't you think there would be a rabbit and fox scenario someplace to consider with human population increases and now perceived CCD? Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 00:17:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot McPherson Organization: McPherson Family Farms Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> Toxic formulations of lead, arsenic and mercury were applied to crops in 1400s. So are we saying that because man has made innocent but costly mistakes that we shouldn't learn from them, or are we committed to continue the cycle of addiction to chemical crutches. Seems to me that the current cycle of cides is just as toxic as they have ever been. Do we realize that more farmers die of cancer than any other demographic? Scot McPherson McPherson Family Farms Davenport, IA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 09:10:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst > Today, fewer farmers feed more people than ever before in the history > of food production. The world's problems in a nutshell? Just too many people. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 07:16:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: pollination crops Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My parents (non-beekeepers) just forwarded me an MSNBC online article more or less about the end of civilization and the food supply. It contained the follwoing chart: Crop and value in billions 2006-percentage pollinated by honeybees Soybeans- 19.7 - 50% Alfalfa- 7.5 - 60% Cotton- 5.2 - 80% Almonds- 2.2 - 100% Apples- 2.1 - 90% Organges- 1.8 - 90% Peaches- 0.5 - 80% Cherries, sweet- 0.5 - 90% Grapefruit- 0.4 - 90% Tangerines-0.1- 90% Source: US Dept of Ag; AP Roger A. Morse and Nicholas W. Calderone, Cornell U. There's a lot more I could learn about the value of pollination, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that soybeans may produce some honey, but the soybean crop doesn't even substantially benefit from honeybees let alone depend on them. The value for alfalfa is surely the value of the leafy stuff, not the seed crop, which means its value doesn't even depend on flowering, let alone getting pollinated. Cotton, to my understanding, is more or less the same story as soybeans. Obviously almonds are a big deal for beekeepers, but I was surprised to see the value of the almond crop higher than apples. Personally, I eat 100 times the value in apples that I do in almonds each year. Is it just that we export so many, whereas apples are mostly just for the domestic market? It was also my understanding that peaches are self-fertile, and don't require a pollinator at all. And I thought citrus was more or less the same story. I'll be grateful to whoever can fill me in on any important details and/or correct me. Thanks, Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 06:39:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carl & Virginia Webb Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison, I will react to your comments on Russian bees. At Austin I presented the results of a two year study conducted by Deleplane and Ellis at UGA. The study involved 5 beekeepers in the coastal plane, piedmont and mountain areas of Georgia. The grant to do this experiment was for an "IPM" study. IPM methods used were, screened bottom boards and Russian bees. At this point I would like to refer those interested to "Proceedings of the American Beekeeping Conference". published in the May issue of ABJ page 438. The results of this study were so astounding that someone in Deleplane's position must tread carefully in order not to offend breeders of bees other than Russian. The speaker at the ABF convention in Austin on Russian bees is a bit shy to > post on BEE_L but we had a discussion on the subject by email. His > conclusion > on the Russian was (and is also mine) that with the Russian bee you will > without doubt need to treat less for varroa and the bee does not seem > effected by tracheal mites. Well the Russian bees not treated for two years with any miteacide had no more varroa mites than the Italian bees treated twice each year with chemicals,Check mite, Apilife-Var, and Apiguard. (Makes me wonder why you use chemicals at all). Keep in mind also that the Russian bees were at a distinct disadvantage for they were intermingled in the study with mite infested Italian bees. In spite of this the Russian bees excelled in every area measured. For example a slight increase in honey production the first year and doubled the honey production the second year. In short, when I see that the Russian bees excel in every way and especially that mite levels are comparable without chemicals to Italian bees treated each spring and fall I can not help wonder what is really wrong with this industry. Sure there is a problem with Russian bee crosses as there are with crosses of other races of bees. Why not use the pure Russians and enjoy all of the benefits. I have used Russian bees since purchasing my first breeder queen in 2000. I no longer have the energy to fight the battles that you folks do. I would not keep bees if I experienced high winter losses and filled my hives with poisonous organic and inorganic chemicals. I am not a purest for I did use one Apiguard application last Fall. I would not have had heavy losses had I not treated at all for this I have evidence from years without treatment in the past. I am going to now make a statement that will anger some and astound others. Why are we keeping a doomed race of bees alive artificially. Would it not be better to let them die and reserve only a small population for scientific purposes. Were it not for the use of mite susceptible bees kept alive artificially and consequently breeding super mites the keepers of mite resistant bees would never need to use any chemicals in their hives. A balance would be achieved between parasite and host. Russian bees are not the perfect bee according to the wishes of every beekeeper. They are the very best bee available. Those of you who would like a copy of Deleplane's power point presentation at Phoenix, Please send me a personal request. Carl Webb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 07:37:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: A sustainable feast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline 2007 is the centennial of Rachel Carson's birth. The Rachel Carson Homestead Association is planning four major events throughout the year including a May 27 birthday party and sustainable feast at her birthplace and home in Springdale, Pennsylvania. Rachel Carson was born on a farm in Springdale, Pennsylvania. She graduated from Pennsylvania College for Women (now Chatham College), earned a Masters in Marine Biology at Johns Hopkins, taught Zoology at the University of Maryland, and eventually took a job with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. While there, she wrote three books about the sea which gave her the financial independence to quit her goverment job and begin the book which made her famous -- and infamous. Disturbed by the profligate use of synthetic chemical pesticides after World War II, Carson reluctantly changed her focus in order to warn the public about the long term effects of misusing pesticides. In Silent Spring (1962) she challenged the practices of agricultural scientists and the government, and called for a change in the way humankind viewed the natural world. Carson was attacked by the chemical industry and some in government as an alarmist, but courageously spoke out to remind us that we are a vulnerable part of the natural world subject to the same damage as the rest of the ecosystem. Testifying before Congress in 1963, Carson called for new policies to protect human health and the environment. Rachel Carson died in 1964 after a long battle against cancer. Her witness for the beauty and integrity of life continues to inspire new generations to protect the living world and all its creatures. Even before Silent Spring was published by Houghton Mifflin in 1962, there was strong opposition to it. As Time Magazine recounted in 1999: Carson was violently assailed by threats of lawsuits and derision, including suggestions that this meticulous scientist was a "hysterical woman" unqualified to write such a book. A huge counterattack was organized and led by Monsanto, Velsicol, American Cyanamid - indeed, the whole chemical industry - duly supported by the Agriculture Department as well as the more cautious in the media. Houghton Mifflin was pressured to suppress the book, but did not succumb. Silent Spring was positively reviewed by many outside of the agricultural and chemical science fields, and it became a runaway best seller both in the USA and overseas. Again, Time Magazine claimed that, within a year or so of publication: "all but the most self-serving of Carson's attackers were backing rapidly toward safer ground. In their ugly campaign to reduce a brave scientist's protest to a matter of public relations, the chemical interests had only increased public awareness." Adopting Integrated Pest Management (IPM) is a way you can help yourself by helping the environment. IPM addresses pest problems through a step by step process, with the least toxic response as a first step. Pesticides are toxic, we use lots of them, we are exposed to many different kinds and we do not know much about their long-term health effects, especially in combination with each other and other chemical exposures. Home and garden applications account for more pesticide use on a per acre basis than agriculture. In the United States, non-farmers use over 163 million pounds of pesticide active ingredient, spending more than $2.1 billion per year sources: http://www.rachelcarsonhomestead.org http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Carson http://www.ecotopia.org/ehof/carson/bio.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 07:49:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: pollination crops Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric wrote: > The value for alfalfa is surely the value of the leafy stuff, not the seed crop Yes, but to plant it, you need the seeds > I was surprised to see the value of the almond crop higher than apples. Evidently 80% of the world's almonds are grown in California, while apples are grown more widely > I'll be grateful to whoever can fill me in on any important details and/or correct me. As much As we appreciate the free publicity and the increase in the public's awareness of the importance of bees, most of what has appeared in the news media is either greatly distorted or flat-out wrong: * more than 2.4 million bee colonies have disappeared * Even Albert Einstein, many decades ago, praised the invaluable insect * all Albrecht had to do was tell them there'd be no beer without the bee * Tom (her 16-year-old son) researched how to make a pyramid and coat it with something sweet and sticky to attract them. It's so they can get out of the sun, to rest. www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005115131 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 08:13:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Timothy C. Eisele" Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: <006901c78e0a$537b86d0$1000a8c0@mcpfarms.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot McPherson wrote: > Organic beekeeping is far less costly than standard commercial practices. > Less fuel costs, less medication costs, less lumber and wax replacement > costs, healtier bees that don't need to be replaced as often and therefore > build up faster since not new installations every year. A major cost item that I don't see on your list, is labor. My understanding is that "organic" is expensive because is more labor-intensive than standard commercial practice. Is your labor free? As a hobbyist, I don't have to worry about hiring help, but if I did, all the money I have invested in bees, equipment, and supplies in the last 8 years would barely be enough to pay for even one hired hand for 13 weeks in the summer (at minimum wage). Please, if you are going to make a strong statement about one beekeeping method being "cheaper" than another, don't leave out major cost items. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 12:39:17 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Today, fewer farmers feed more people than ever before in the history of food production. This is true but is this the optimum goal for humanity? This indirectly implies that there should be fewer beekeepers that produce honey for more people than ever. My opinion is that the goal should be self-sustaining communities that also include local farmers and beekeepers. There is no shortage of food - in the US and EU we pay farmers hefty subsidies not to farm. Since there are millions of hungry people in the US and worldwide, there clearly is an issue in food distribution. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 08:47:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There is a beekeeper north of me in Mn who has been buying Russian breeders and building his stock for several years. He has not had any substaintial losses, gets the same decent honey crop as others in the region and has only used formic and oxalic although he indicated this spring he may cut back on treatments as he adjusts to a resistant stock This past winter, wintered over losses were a bit higher here then normal he had 1:20 or so dead outs. The Russian line has also made it easier for him to succesfully winter over 4 frame nucs he makes up in May each year. So for northern stationary beekeepers the Russian appears to be a excellent choice and if incorporated into a queen riasing program can make a beekeeper self sufficient. Sounds like the future to me for northern beekeepers. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 06:59:20 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...so many on the organic list do TBHs or both, though I mostly do langs. You did not say so in so may words, but I take what you are saying to confirm that your bee stock have the same health and success rate in TBHs as in Langstroths? > So do you do or have some TBHs now? Sorry to say, I have almost no bees. I've been travelling a lot, and spent two months sailing around in the Atlantic, NY canals and the Great Lakes last year at this time -- a critical beekeeping season -- then spent the summer -- another critical time -- down East, so I have pretty much quit beekeeping for the time being. If I were to start over, and not plan on pollinating or other migratory wiork, I'd sure tale a good look at that approach. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 09:19:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Sanity In-Reply-To: <007b01c78d7e$98a00c90$0300000a@ari71aa1cf24c5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love the Internet but it tends to amplify, as does the 24 hour news cycle. So far my informal poll has not pointed out a serious problem. I will have the results out next week. Which prompted me to look closely at what we think we know about losses and you glean the following. News reports about CCD from those supposedly close to the problem seem to be coming to a maximum of 25% killed and even that is a guess. Currently we lose about 20% each year. 25% is not that unusual, especially compared to the early days of Tracheal Mites when 80% was thrown around. (Where do they get those numbers?) Interesting that before mites winter losses were still in the 10-25% area. I know that some of the reported CCD cases were caused by mites, so the numbers are suspect and probably why no one wants to commit. You are trusting the word of a person who possibly will be reimbursed if it is CCD but not if it is mites. ( I am not saying all, just some.) Bob has pointed out that some commercial operations intentionally reduce to 50% for winter and some to 100% , as did many Canadian beekeepers before the border was closed. (I know the problem with CCD is the when.) Breeders do not seem to be having a problem supplying bees. At least they are not acknowledging problems. Almonds were pollinated and blueberries will be even with CCD and mites. So all this excessive noise about the death of the commercial/factory/towel thrower/destroyer of the universe/takes candy from babies/ beekeeping seems more to be agenda driven than factual. There is a problem, what it is no one knows, but it or something very similar has happened before and commercial beekeeping is still sustainably pollinating and so are the bees. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 07:32:44 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for your report, Carl. We have been wondering why the Russians have not been more widely adopted, and concluded that one of the reasons is the differing varieties that are being distributed under the general designation, with some being out-crosses masquerading as Russians. Moreover, the stock was changing year to year, at least in the earlier releases. > I have used Russian bees since purchasing my first breeder queen in 2000. Maybe you could share with us the source or sources that worked for you, and also the number of hives of Russians you run, and type of beekeeping you do? > I am going to now make a statement that will anger some and astound > others. Why are we keeping a doomed race of bees alive artificially. > Would it not be better to let them die and reserve only a small population > for scientific purposes. Were it not for the use of mite susceptible bees > kept alive artificially and consequently breeding super mites the keepers > of mite resistant bees would never need to use any chemicals in their > hives. A balance would be achieved between parasite and host. I think you won't find much arguement here. We are all agreed that chemicals were not intended to be a permanent answer, and that the nasty ones have to phased out, even if some beekeepers are addicted and like being that way. I think that the economics will eventually achieve that result, though, as you point out, if only the word gets out and people are able to confirm that they can get by without these crutches and have good experiences with mite tolerant varieties. Encouraging reports from those with success, like your, go along way to saving others from the chemical treadmill. Approaches that involve simply changing stock are very appealing compared to approaches that involve melting all combs and doing arcane manipulations. Having said that, I wonder, what type of foundation do you use, assuming you use foundation? > Russian bees are not the perfect bee according to the wishes of every > beekeeper. They are the very best bee available. Glad to hear that. > Those of you who would like a copy of Deleplane's power point presentation > at Phoenix, Please send me a personal request. I, of course would like one, but, if you send me a copy and it would be OK with Keith, I can put it for download on a web site for a while to save you sending it out one by one. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 09:37:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>formulations of lead, arsenic and mercury were applied to crops >>in 1400s. >So are we saying that because man has made innocent but costly >mistakes that we shouldn't learn from them? Nobody said any such thing. The comments were simply presented to provide context and perspective. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 07:30:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: <463B2360.2070508@mtu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tim: A major cost item that I don't see on your list, is labor. My understanding is that "organic" is expensive because is more labor-intensive than standard commercial practice. Is your labor free? Reply: I am not seeing why you consider it more labor intensive? Can you explain why you think this? After all, the labor saved by not treating, and backtracking to deadouts, and constant feeding and nowadays replacing contaminated combs in rotation out, must off set something, or am I wrong? Also I run about 900 hives by myself and that therefore must be very labor intensive for me to handle being a woman, so please explain what is labor intensive? Dee- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 10:45:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Russian crosses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 4 May 2007 06:39:21 -0500, Carl & Virginia Webb wrote: >industry. Sure there is a problem with Russian bee crosses as there are with >crosses of other races of bees. What specific problem are you referring to? The problem I had in my very limited (statistically insignificant) experience with Russian crosses was that they were, for me, intolerably "mean." I wonder if others with statistically more significant experiences could relate similar stories. Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 10:02:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Carl & All, Thanks Carl for you thoughts! Also for your thoughts by direct email! Perhaps we all need to take a second look at the Russian genetics! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 11:43:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: <463B2360.2070508@mtu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timothy C. Eisele wrote: > > A major cost item that I don't see on your list, is labor. My > understanding is that "organic" is expensive because is more > labor-intensive than standard commercial practice. You have to add another factor which is yield. Most commercial outfits out produce their organic counterpart. Interesting to see if the same goes for beekeeping. Seems it should since you limit the forage area and type of forage. Plus, just about every organic beekeeper in my area no longer keeps bees. That tends to decrease the yields. There is nothing wrong with organic farming. I practice it, but as a gardener, not a make-your-living-from-it farmer. I enjoy pulling weeds by hand in the garden and listen to the Red Sox beat the Yankees. Or pick off the Japanese beetles, Hornworms and Potato beetles. That is labor intensive and just what happens in most third world counties where "millions" are starving. (Actually, most countries can feed their people, just some choose not to do it so they can eliminate the opposition. Just look at Rhodesia and the Sudan. Or the USSR before WWII and the Cossacks- a friend of ours lived through that but lost her parents.) Did you know that the over-all environmental impact of a Prius is greater than a Hummer, the most evil of the SUVs - a death spawn of Satan? But you feel better in your Prius since you think you are green. I toot along in my VW Diesel with better mileage and less impact than both. That has a lot to do with the organic movement. You feel good about yourself even if the impact may be worse. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 13:31:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Timothy C. Eisele wrote: >> >> A major cost item that I don't see on your list, is labor. My >> understanding is that "organic" is expensive because is more >> labor-intensive than standard commercial practice. When I had less than fifty hives I used to brush and shake the bees off the honey frames by hand. Very hard work in 90 degree weather and it usually ended up with a lot of robbing going on because the comb would dribble everywhere When I had hundreds of hives, I switched to Bee Go and I could take off at least twenty times as much honey per hour, with less mess and less robbing. Organic beekeeping does not permit the use of fume boards, so far as I know. In some regions bee escape boards are feasible. They weren't in So California because as soon as the bees cleared out ants would pour in. And boy are they hard to get out of the boxes. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 14:43:24 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/05/2007 03:04:13 GMT Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: Unlike many of my commercial friends I will not hesitate to spend the money to help keep my bees healthy BUT still like to use IPM and only treat when needed! Bob, Would you consider the provision of clean (possibly fumigated with acetic acid fumes) combs to be part of IPM? Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 15:07:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/05/2007 15:14:33 GMT Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: I would think acetic acid would really stink at 80% as similar to vinegar but vinegar is only 5%. Does the smell linger in the box or dissipate quickly? Seal around the boxes with tape to keep the fumes in for a week then air for a few days. It does smell of vinegar but doesn't last too long, depending on air flow, temperature etc. Alternatively put all the combs into a large plastic bag (there used to be bags sold for the purpose) chuck in half a pint of 80% acetic and tie the top. Remember of course that it is a strong acid and will take the skin off your fingers etc if you aren't careful, so take normal precautions. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 15:58:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Bill's Sanity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline To all Bill said, I say 'yep'. And Bill says it so clearly! BTW, in this small part of the world (near Albany NY) I am contacted fairly often by the press, but by no means because of any instigation on my part. I have recently been criticized by some for sharing my views on CCD and have been told that it would be far better to refer press inquiries to those at academic institutions. The thought is that the press never gets anything right so it is best not to discuss with them such matters as colony stress and the possibility that might have an effect on CCD...because it could be a small step from there to questioning honey purity. I think this is wrong-footed. By refusing to talk to the press one can also lead to the question 'is there something to hide here'? IMO it is best to be open, as accurate as the circumstances permit, and reassuring. And also try to keep clear distinctions between opinion and fact. (It is amazing how many have told me that honey bees are suffering because of cell phone use.) And the press will still get parts wrong! Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:34:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chrissy Shaw Subject: Re: Russian crosses In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Russian crosses with SMR and then OM to the feral Caucasian population does not seem that bad of bee. I speak of those from Olympic Wilderness Apiaries. In winter and in build up they are more like the Caucasians in size. Russian lines are said to be of Carniolan lines and they are rather testy Carniolan X Italian. I like the Russian X SMR X Caucasian bee in those regards, but of course, we can deal Caucasian out due to lack of base stock to work from. Everyone judges deffensiveness different. If i can sit in the yard on a warm day and not get stung, that is gentle to me, so use that as my base line. Chrissy Shaw A fraction of a degree in error of movement compounds per-unit in spacetime and all true courses are determined by degree of error and its correction. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 20:52:57 +0200 Reply-To: "gcaboni@tiscali.it" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "gcaboni@tiscali.it" Subject: nosema ceranae in sardinia 2001/2007 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi all and excuse me for my bad englishI give to mine two cent for the list. you I write the letter in Italian in how much ò many difficulties to make it in English, moreover I fear not to give them the just meant one. I hope that you have a friend who can translated in Sardegna abbiamo avuto delle fortissime mortalità dal 2001-2002 ( oltre il 60% , oltre 800 alveari) al 2005 (oltre il 40% ) in questi ultimi due anni siamo stabili a mortalità del 15% . la percentuale maggiore di perdite avviene in autunno. la fortissima e inspiegabile mortalità a costretto al acquisto di un microscopio e ad una approfondita indagine. il risultato e stato infezione da nosema. con istituti di ricerca abbiamo effettuato indagini più approfondite e abbiamo scoperto che il tipo di nosema era il ceranae. abbiamo effettuato diverse prove di efficacia con diversi prodotti fumagillina, apiherb, vita fed, protofil. sia in autunno che in primavera, inoltre abbiamo regolarmente fumigato i telai con acido acetico. il risultato delle prove e drammaticamente semplice. abbiamo potuto notare che se negli alveari campione, (cioè dove non e stato utilizzato nessun prodotto..) il numero delle spore diminuiva naturalmente , tutti i prodotti avevano una efficacia variabile ma soddisfacente, invece se il numero di spore negli alveari campione aumentava naturalmente, nessun prodotto aveva un efficacia rilevante. inoltre abbiamo notato che anche con un numero limitato di spore (800.000-3.000.000 ) ma con presenza di cisti di amebiasi lo spopolamento era molto forte e veloce portando alla perdita della famiglia (febbraio-marzo 2005). abbiamo provato il timolo seguendo la ricerca del figlio di norman rice (6grammi x 100kg di zucchero da diluire per fare sciroppo) abbiamo avuto dei risultati controversi e attualmente non spiegabili perchè il numero di spore aumentava, ma sembrava che le famiglie si sviluppavano benissimo, con covata tonica e con nessun apparente sintomo di nosema. da questi risultati abbiamo deciso di utilizzare il timolo ogni volta che le api hanno necessità di essere alimentate oltre che un buon numero di colonie di rimonta. in questi ultimi due anni sembra quasi che il nosema sia quasi scomparso e abbiamo per ora difficoltà a trovare un numero adeguato di alveari infestati da nosema per proseguire le ricerche. sembra che la patologia sia legata in maniera fortissima al clima della stagione. dimenticavo di dirvi che non abbiamo mai effettuato alcuna importazione o esportazione di materiale vivo, e stiamo ancora indagando su come questo parassita si arrivato in Sardegna e abbia avuto una esplosione simile e contemporanea alla Spagna e in altre zone d’Europa . sono a vostra disposizione per eventuali chiarimenti. saluti Giuseppe caboni gcaboni@tiscali.it www.apimed.com Naviga e telefona senza limiti con Tiscali Scopri le promozioni Tiscali adsl: navighi e telefoni senza canone Telecom http://abbonati.tiscali.it/adsl/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 18:11:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit wrote: >We'll be watching Bob, and I'm sure he will give it a fair shot, ....keep a watch on him and make sure he stays on the path >:) ) If I understand correctly, Bob is planning to insert 2 frames of small cell in the broodnest. At minimum, small cell is needed throughout the broodnest. Bob is off path right from the start. I’m predicting 'total failure' with this experiment the way it is planed. Joe ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 23:35:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: nosema ceranae in sardinia 2001/2007 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Giuseppe wrote: > I hope that you have a friend who can translated Alta Vista Babelfish gave: In Sardinia we have had of strongest mortalities from 2001-2002 (beyond 60%, beyond 800 stream beds) to 2005 (beyond 40%) in these last two years we are stable to mortality of 15%. the greater percentage of losses happens in autumn. the strong and inexplicable forced mortality to to the purchase of a microscope and to one deepened surveying. the result and state infection from nosema. with search institutes we have carried out deepened surveyings more and we have uncovered that the type of nosema was the ceranae. has carried out various tests of effectiveness with various products fumagillina, apiherb, life fed, protofil. is in autumn that in spring, moreover we have regularly fumigato the chassis with acetic acid. the result of the tests and dramatically simple we have been able to notice that if in the stream beds champion, (that is where and be used no product.) the number of the spore diminished, all the products naturally had a variable effectiveness but satisfactory, instead if the number of spore in the stream beds champion increased naturally, no product had an important effectiveness moreover has noticed that also with a limited number of spore (800.000-3.000.000) but with presence of amebiasi cysts the spopolamento was much fast fort and carrying to the loss of the family (February-March 2005). we have tried the timolo following the search of the rice son of norman (6grammi x 100kg of sugar to dilute in order to make syrup) we have had of turns out to you controversial and currently not explicable why the spore number increased, but it seemed that the families developed themselves very well, with brooded tonic and no appearing symptom of nosema. from these it turns out to you we have decided to use timolo the every time that the bees have necessity of being fed beyond that a good number of colonies of rimonta. in these last two years it seems nearly that the nosema it is nearly scomparso and we have for hour difficulty to find a number adequate of stream beds infests you from nosema in order continuing the searches seems that pathology is tied in the strongest way to the climate of the season forgot about dirvi that we have not never carried out some import or export of alive material, and is still inquiring on like this arrived parasite in Sardinia and has had one outbreak similar and contemporary to Spain and in other zones of Europe. they are to your disposition for eventual clarifications. Can anyone do better? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 13:05:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? Comments: To: Dee Lusby Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: >Also I run about 900 hives by myself and that therefore >must be very labor intensive for me to handle being a >woman, so please explain what is labor intensive? Ms Lusby You say you have 900 hives but do you harvest any honey from them? It is one thing to drive around making splits all day and another to bring in a crop. In the 1980s I kept 450 hives and got about 40,000 pounds a year, plus 4000 pounds of bee pollen. It was very hard work harvesting, extracting, filling drums, and trucking the honey to L.A. to sell. Why don't tell us how much you actually get from these bees? Then WE can decide how labor intensive it is. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:54:47 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Russian crosses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The problem I had in my very limited (statistically insignificant) > experience with Russian crosses was that they were, for me, > intolerably "mean." I wonder if others with statistically more > significant experiences could relate similar stories. I've heard the same, but look at this: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2003/diary011003.htm. (go to Friday). We were all tearing these hives apart repeatedly, without smoke or veils, as I recall, and I don't think anyone was stung. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if the bees that are being sold as Russians are really the Russians that we saw at the lab. Charley? You have the real Russians, but not everyone can afford one of your breeders. Would I be putting you on the spot to ask you to mention several commercial suppliers who get stock from you and have your confidence? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 13:39:33 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Molokai Meli, LLC" Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > When I had hundreds of hives, I switched to Bee Go and I could take > off at > least twenty times as much honey per hour, with less mess and less > robbing. > Organic beekeeping does not permit the use of fume boards, so far as I > know. I believe organic requirements are different for different certifiers. Our certifier, Hawaii Organic Farmers Association, worked with us to allow the use of fume boards with Fischer's Bee Quick. It works well for us, but we had to request them to look into it and allow it. Molokai Meli ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 18:30:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: nosema ceranae in sardinia 2001/2007 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, > nosema was the ceranae. has carried out various tests of effectiveness with various products fumagillina, apiherb, life fed, protofil. I guess the first product is fumidil. Doeas the list know what the other products are? >no product had an important effectiveness Very scary. >we have tried the timolo following the search of the rice son of norman (6grammi x 100kg of sugar to dilute in order to make syrup) we have had of turns out to you controversial and currently not explicable why the spore number increased, with brooded tonic and no appearing symptom of nosema. Sounds like *timolo * did the trick. I have not yet googled any of the above products yet but what is timolo? >from these it turns out to you we have decided to use timolo the every time that the bees have necessity of being fed beyond that a good number of colonies of rimonta. I also do not know if the nosema I found was * nosema ceranae* or not. I suspect so due to the difficulty in controlling. Regardless fumidil cleared the problem up which is the good news I have to report. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 19:02:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Allen talking to Dee: ....keep a watch on him and make sure he stays on the path The other night Dee & I discussed my project while the list slept. I was sitting at the computer in the middle of the night when an email from Dee came in. Was almost like we were in a chat room. She offered to let me come for a visit (again) and her help with small cell questions. I suspect in the future both might happen. Joe said: .>If I understand correctly, Bob is planning to insert 2 frames of small cell in the broodnest. This is the method used by several on the net and claim when done( when a flow is on) the bees downsize correctly right away. Dennis M. says I need a minimum of four small cell frames in the brood nest to see results others see with small cell. Another source says 6. If you run your bees in two deeps then you would need 8 or 12. The outside frames which for the most part hold honey most of the year can be large cell according to those beekeepers. The idea is too get the comb drawn correctly in one downsize. We shall see. A beekeeper in Oklahoma send me an email saying he got his small cell downsized the first time by getting drawn in 5 frame nucs! Dee's recommendation was to use the fully drawn small cell ( which was not available until the last year) and I agreed to test some frames of those also. >At minimum, small cell is needed throughout the broodnest. The normal broodnest of bees or what they like to keep is around 4-5 frames of brood. In Florida when I kept bees the bees always dropped back to four of five frames of brood unless we were pushing the bees to produce brood. > Bob is off path right from the start. I’m predicting 'total failure' with this experiment the way it is planed. Now Joe that's not what you said last winter when I first told you of the project. What has changed? You also said you would go along with my results which I thought you would as you know I would be honest. Others ( some reading right now) on BEE-L said if my results were not positive than the small cell beekeepers would reject the entire project. Dee Lusby knows I will be honest. I think its fair to say I am not testing Dee's method of downsizing but Dennis Murrels. Looking at the yards today I think I will have plenty of hives which could spare a couple frames of brood right before the main honey flow. I was afraid the bees would shut down during the last cold spell but did not happen. Each had a real pollen patty and light syrup and kept raising brood during our cold and rainy period. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 17:11:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter, I will let the packer tell you this fall when the crop is over and sold then. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 17:22:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: <463B549C.4030105@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill: You have to add another factor which is yield. Most commercial outfits out produce their organic counterpart. Interesting to see if the same goes for beekeeping. Reply: In beekeeping commercial artificial outproduce only when they take both their crop and their bees food also. But then they have to feed them back something, so do they then factor in the artificial syrups and pollens to subtract from yield? Here yield to me means nothing when nothing is left for the bees needs FWIW...... But then some say they make living doing other and only work bees parttime to play the honey shift game. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 18:34:47 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: High end video equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I felt I needed at least 6 megapixels SLR (single lens reflex) With SLR, > the same lens is used for viewing and taking pictures, and is essential > for close up photography for correctly centering the object in the picture > field. Right. I know what you mean. FWIW, I used to have several SLRs and a developing lab. Now I have a tiny camera, and I get better pictures -- and more of them -- in less time, no hassle, and almost no expense.. I used to think I needed a view finder, and I did, until the new cameras came out with bright LCD panels and batteries strong enough to drive them until the cows come home. Used to be the LCDs ate batteries in just a few shots, but no more. I now get hundreds of high quality shots to one charge. I actually have a view finder on this camera -- I insisted I needed it -- but find I never use it anymore. I can see exactly what I am shooting in the LCD, since it is looking thru the lens and showing details, centering and focus -- just like an SLR. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 19:47:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot McPherson Organization: McPherson Family Farms Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: <463B2360.2070508@mtu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >A major cost item that I don't see on your list, is labor. My >understanding is that "organic" is expensive because is more >labor-intensive than standard commercial practice. Fuuny, you are right. I didn't mention labor. I am not sure why you think it should take more labor. There is less to do in an organic operation, unless maybe you mean its more labor because the bees are more productive and you need to get to the bees to get the honey off, but of course I am not sure where you were going with this since you didn't say why you think organic beekeeping is more expensive. Of course higher productivity requiring more labor is a curse I think many would be willing to bear. My experience is that healthy happy bees are a very productive lot. Does your understanding come from a successfully sustainable organic beekeeper, an unsuccessful organic beekeeper, or from a non-organic chemical using beekeeper? Scot McPherson McPherson Family Farms Davenport, IA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 19:56:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot McPherson Organization: McPherson Family Farms Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot Said: >>So are we saying that because man has made innocent but costly >>mistakes that we shouldn't learn from them? Allen Said: >Nobody said any such thing. The comments were simply presented to provide >context and perspective. Yes, the comments certainly do put things in perspective...How long can we continuously repeat mistakes despite history's lessons... Scot McPherson McPherson Family Farms Davenport, IA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 20:02:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot McPherson Organization: McPherson Family Farms Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: <463B549C.4030105@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >You have to add another factor which is yield. Most commercial outfits >out produce their organic counterpart. Interesting to see if the same >goes for beekeeping. Seems it should since you limit the forage area and >type of forage Strange, organic beekeepers report an increase in forage without the bees having to travel as far. Seems to me that bees that have to travel less distance burn less fuel in their gathering. Seems to me this equates to greater yields. Not to mention the greater variety of forage which the small cell bees enjoy. Evidenced by beekeepers who have seen new colors of pollen in their hives when they switch from large cell beekeeping to small cell organic beekeeping. >There is nothing wrong with organic farming. I practice it, but as a >gardener, not a make-your-living-from-it farmer. Two of my bee yards are on an organic beef farm, the farm also is a "century farm" also, they seem to be doing just fine in the "Make your Living from it" perspective. I would say that a century farm could very well be considered sustainable. Scot McPherson McPherson Family Farms Davenport, IA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 20:03:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot McPherson Organization: McPherson Family Farms Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >When I had hundreds of hives, I switched to Bee Go and I could take off at >least twenty times as much honey per hour, with less mess and less robbing. >Organic beekeeping does not permit the use of fume boards, so far as I >know. I just shake the frames. Snap Snap, they are free of bees. Takes less time than using Bee Go... Scot McPherson McPherson Family Farms Davenport, IA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 20:11:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot McPherson Organization: McPherson Family Farms Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Why don't tell us how much >you actually get from these bees? Then WE can decide how labor intensive it >is. It is well known that the south west has been in an extended draught for several years now...Might be important that you compare Dees operation to other within her region's productivity. It is also another thing to mention that Dee still have bees literally smack in the middle of beekeepers going out of business because of extended draught...yet she's still increasing... Maybe draught conditions are hurting the margin, but she's still around while others have literally dried up last few years... In my case, I lost a LOT of bees last year, but I know why and I documented why on several lists BEFORE it happened that when I was going into winter that my general region in the Midwest suffered from a pollen famine. My hives had no pollen from early October until February...None...From here to nebraska that I know about suffered the same affects. Not a single person since October has disputed this fact either. So before you ask me how well I am doing, I am working on colony increase this season, not on honey production....in other words, not an excuse but a real, known and early documented reason. Scot McPherson McPherson Family Farms Davenport, IA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 21:12:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Reusing CCD deaouts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Interesting experiment is in progress in Florida by the USDA-ARS & Dave Hackenberg. 400 hives. 100 hives in each of four category. 1. CCD dead-out untreated 2.CCD dead out brood comb irradiated 3. CCD dead out honey supers (no brood) 4.CCD dead out brood boxes fumigated as I posted with acetic acid. All hives had new packages put in from same supplier. Irradiated & acetic acid doing fine. ( 2 & 4) problems in group 1 & 3 I have been told. I am really surprised of the trouble in group 3. A quote from Dave Hackenberg on the Bee Culture "Catch the Buzz" site " His initial observation was that the differences between treated and untreated colonies was day & night" I remind the list that these hives are about two months ahead of our Midwest hives depending on when the project was started. Many many beekeepers have dumped packages into CCD deadouts. I wonder what the next couple months will bring for those beekeepers? I did not have CCD in my hives although I had some winter kill . However I am keeping a close watch on my bees. No problems yet for which I am thankful. Again if you live in Missouri and you see your hives starting to crash with the CCD signs as posted on several places on the internet contact me and I will come and take a look and see if we can turn the situation around. The above USDA-ARS? David Hackenberg experiment should wake beekeepers up to *is CCD real?* Sincerely, Bob Harrison concerned beekeeper -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 23:00:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: Russian crosses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Carl and Charley both replied direct to me, since they each had attachments. I very much appreciate their input. Could be people have been evaluating the wrong stock, and thinkingv they are evaluating the russians? I've posted their comments and the powerpoint file at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/files/russian.htm ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 22:31:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot McPherson Organization: McPherson Family Farms Subject: Re: Factory farmed honey bees? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >An example of real solid research: out of 1000 emailers, not one reported >colony collapse to the organic bee list. Boy, that proves it. >Probably never lost a single hive, having no idea why it failed. I wish I >could say that. You know peter, I reported very high losses, I do however know why, and did know why early on and I posted my concerns about it early in October...***We had a pollen famine***. Confirmed famine across the midwest. No pollen in any of my hives in October...that's why I had losses, and I certainly DID report that fact both in October my concerns, and my relief that as many as did make it through. Out of 500 colonies I am down to 140. That's honest reporting, and I knew it was going to happen and I knew why and documented it early. Scot McPherson McPherson Family Farms Davenport, IA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 22:13:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: CCD or MVCAS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi BEE-L: Just had to bring this to your attention! I am now reading item #15, page 441 May 2007 American Bee Journal Last sentence says: "Assessing all of the factors that affect bee health at the correct time, and interpreting the results in relation to provisional thresholds and interactions, takes the mystery out of why honey bees are dying." Can this be true? Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 07:30:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: standards for organic success MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the UK the word 'organic' as applied to food products has in effect been patented by organisations who prescribe precise and exacting standards and methods that are endorced by local Trading Standards departments. For practical beekeeping purposes they are unmeetable, even by hobby beekeepers. Chris In a message dated 03/05/2007 14:06:28 GMT Standard Time, mws1112004@YAHOO.COM writes: Until there can be a national concensus of standards, embraced by the entire organic community, the word "organic" has very little value except to those who don't understand the discord within the organic movement. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 08:19:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: <20070505002207.75602.qmail@web51601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > In beekeeping commercial artificial outproduce only when > they take both their crop and their bees food also. But > then they have to feed them back something, In essence you are saying they do not follow your rules so they produce more. That is the point. Organic has its set of practices and commercial has theirs. You may not like the fact that they have few restrictions, compared to organic, but those are the sandboxes where each of us decides to play. Large commercial beekeepers have to make a living from it, so they use "Best Management Practices" (love that term) to do so. They get a larger return on investment by feeding cheap sugar or HFCS for overwintering (which is actually best for the bees) and taking off honey to sell at a premium. That is not bad but smart. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 08:28:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Green Subject: Midwest Beekeeper - Free Download In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The May issue of MIDWEST BEEKEEPER is now available for free download from www.IndianaBeekeepingSchool.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 09:01:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: Russian crosses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I've posted their comments and the powerpoint file at >http://www.honeybeeworld.com/files/russian.htm I should mentiuon that I altered the PowerPoint files to a self-running slideshow, so those who do not have PowerPoint installed on their computers or know how to run PP should be able to view it, under Windows, at least. I think I'll post an OpenOffice.org version too, for Linux users. Anyone having problems, please write me direct. In relation to the presentation: I now recall having seen it at the convention, and realise that I did not get the full significance at the time. One reason was that differences between the three treatments seemed more muted than I would have hoped, not 'night and day'. However, when we factor in that the hives of the three treatments were not isolated, but rather intermingled, though, we can see that the good hives helped the bad and the bad hives affected the good ones. I suppose this is therefore a good test, since it shows how the Russian stock with screened bottoms stands up when surrounded by other colonies. Of course it is only one test in only one place, but it does show a sizeable difference. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 14:04:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: nosema ceranae in sardinia 2001/2007 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob asked: > Sounds like *timolo * did the trick. I have not yet googled any of the > above > products yet but what is timolo? Thymol! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 09:39:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: CCD or MVCAS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Just had to bring this to your attention! I am now reading >item #15, page 441 May 2007 American Bee Journal > >Last sentence says: >"Assessing all of the factors that affect bee health at the >correct time, and interpreting the results in relation to >provisional thresholds and interactions, takes the mystery >out of why honey bees are dying." Those of us who don't get or haven't received ABJ yet have no clue what you are talking about. Please explain further. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 10:56:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carl & Virginia Webb Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen asked; The source of my Russian breeder queens? ---USDA annual release each year since 2000. Currently they are = available from Charlie Harper. Three hundred dollars is a small price to = pay for quality when you are raising your own queens. The Russian bee = program is one of continuous improvement. Breeder queens are selected = each year from the very best in mite resistance and honey production. We = are very fortunate to have this service provided by Tom Rinder and crew = at the ARS at Baton Rouge. You may wish to Google Russian bees for more = information on the program. What type of foundation do I use? --In the brood nest I use Pierco deep foundation coated with wax with = good results. The wax is evenly coated, clean and smells like fresh wax. = I use 10 frames per box because I believe spacing to 9 frames is = contrary to natural spacing and in addition to reducing brood space it = could be a factor affecting winter survival. Brood frames, if widely = spaced, can not be drawn to bee space as can frames for honey storage.=20 I have not tried small cell and am not aware of any research proving it = to be better in controlling mites. Dr. Delaplane is beginning an = evaluation of small cell. I'll wait for the results of his study. In = honey supers except for cut comb I use wired wax and 8 or 9 frames per = box.=20 Carl Webb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 11:33:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I will let the packer tell you this fall when the crop is >over and sold then. I guess that is your answer, Peter, for next year. Maybe you need to ask for the long-term historical average. That is what counts, because in some years, even unpromising hives can get bumper crops. I have seen it with my own eyes. In some years, you just can't miss, but what you accomplish over the long run is what counts. I realise that people often gauge themselves more by what they expect (or hope) to achieve than what they have actually done, *but* others gauge them more by what they have actually achieved, than what they might be able to do. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 12:01:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Not to mention the greater variety of forage which the small >cell bees enjoy. Evidenced by beekeepers who have seen new colors of pollen >in their hives when they switch from large cell beekeeping to small cell >organic beekeeping. Exactly what nectar and pollen flows are we are missing as LC beekeepers? I have read this claim by SC beekeepers quite a few times, but haven't read any documentation that supports this statement with reference to specific forage and pollen. When switching from LC to SC, what was the productivity gain in yield per hive due to the increased forage and pollen availability? Jerry Wallace Atlanta ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 12:38:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot McPherson Organization: McPherson Family Farms Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can't say I would know the specific flora that becomes available. But it does mean that during dearth periods that bees that were limited to choice of flora are not longer as constrained. I don't know the specific level of the increase, however the bees' algorithm for forage selection includes going only as far as necessary to get the goods, so decreased distance equates to decrease fuel consumption, and more frequent trips. Scot McPherson McPherson Family Farms Davenport, IA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 14:27:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Exactly what nectar and pollen flows are we are missing as LC >beekeepers? I have read this claim by SC beekeepers quite a >few times, but haven't read any documentation that supports >this statement with reference to specific forage and pollen. That is because there is none, and such evidence would be hard to produce, possibly because it is not true (who really knows?), but also possibly because other factors enter into the mix and would confound any simple test. Frank Eischen recently made a presentation revealing some of his findings in almond pollination. I don't recall the details well enough to quote, but there was a stunning difference in the number of varieties of pollen collected by different strains of bees at the same location. Some collected only a few varieties, while others collected many more varieties. So, even if a specific yard of SC bees collected more varieties of pollen, it would be hard to correlate that with the cell size, since the act of making bees into small cell bees may partially be a selection for compatible genetics. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 11:58:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: CCD or MVCAS In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen: Ok Allen, making me type: 15. Rogers, R.E.L. & G.R. Williams - Honey Bee Health In Crisis: What is Causing Bee Mortality?-Honey bee colony strength and health have been assessed by Wildwood Labs Inc. from hives in various locations in North America since 2001. Also, working visits to western Europe since then have provided a clearer understanding of the bee health situation there. The picture that is emerging is alarming - honey bee losses are severe in many countries. When honey bee colonies die in large nubers, the cause is often considered nysterious, and this leads to various allegations and theories as to what caused the bee losses. Using a Colony condition Assessment and Survival Prediction Analysis (CCA/SPA) approach, it as been possible to define the status of bee health in individual colonies and to predict the chances of surviving winter. A CCa is a process that measures a wide range of factors that can affect bee halth or can be indicators of a problem. This process must be performed in a living, managed colony of honey bees. Samples are also collected and aprocessed in the laboratory to complement the in-hive assessment. This informaiton combined with data related to equipment, apiary, environment, and management completes a data snapshot of colonoy condition at the time of assessment. Using provisional thresholds and interaction considerations, it is possible to do a SPA to realize the effects of multiple stressors. The system is objective, unbiased, accurate and comprehensive. What has become clear from using CCA/SPA is that honey bees are suffering from what is being referred to as Multiple and VArious Causative Agents Syndrome (MVCAS). This syndrome is caused by additive or synergistic combinations of more then one factor that affects bee health. The combinations may vary among hives, apiaries, regions and countries. The factors most frequently associated with MVCAS are parasitic mites, diseases (including viruses), managment, and nutrition. It is possible, using CCA/SPA, to determine the specific various factors that are contributing to bee mortality. As well, the system has been found to be a good predictor of the chances of colony survival over winter. Assessing all of the factors that affect bee health at the correct time, and interpreting the results in relation to provisional thresholds and interactions, takes the mystery out of why honey bees are dying. Now Allen, this is from the Proceedings of the AMerican Bee Research conference that took place January 8-13 at the Sheraton Crescent Hotel in Phoenix, Arizona and is an abstract of the conference. Rogers is from Wildwoods Labs in Nova Scotia , Canada Williams is from Dept Biology, Acadia Univ, Nova Scotia, Canada Found abstract interesting as we have discussed here on BEE-L list multiple stresses coming together for a final kill off, with last stress being the cause many believe, yet here it is simply explaining how to relate all together................ What a nice paper to get hold of I think and in CANADA where Allen Dick lives and I sure would want to read more in detail..... and then apply to ................."CCD"........ if I could get a full copy by any chance Allen, sir even! What you think? Best Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 13:56:52 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: CCD or MVCAS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Ok Allen, making me type: Sorry about that > 15. Rogers, R.E.L. & G.R. Williams - Honey Bee Health In > Crisis: What is Causing Bee Mortality?-Honey bee colony > strength and health have been assessed by Wildwood Labs > Inc. from hives in various locations in North America > Found abstract interesting as we have discussed here on > BEE-L list multiple stresses coming together for a final > kill off, with last stress being the cause many believe, > yet here it is simply explaining how to relate all > together Yes. I think I read this previously, and I thought that it was here, but a quick search did not find it. Frankly, I see nothing much new in it. It looks just like common sense to me, and the analysis is only useful the the extent that it can predict hive death, not explain it after if the analysis was not done beforehand. It could be useful in management to prevent loss, or in compliling stats, but not much use in the current post mortem. Nonetheless, if a number of parameters can be measured and reliably predict survivial prospects, I suppose that would be new, since it would imply that we can determine the probability of any one factor causing mortality, and also how they combine. Having written that, I realise that the system -- from what I know and have heard here -- has little chance of working well since we have pretty well established in discussion that there are too many interrelated variables and many unknowns in most cases. > What a nice paper to get hold of I think and in CANADA where Allen Dick > lives and I sure would want to read more in detail..... and then apply to > ................."CCD"........ if I could get a full copy by any chance > Allen, sir even! Nova Scotia is about 2,300 miles from me, and it seems that Arivaca Junction is almost exactly the same distance from Nova Scotia, too. So, maybe you could ask Dick for a copy. He may even be on the list still, and offer a link. At any rate, I doubt it will be much use unless you can analyse some hives, then manage somehow to have them die of CCD. Could be done, I suppose, but from what is leaking out, CCD seems to leave some undetermined residue, toxin or pathogen in the hives, one that can be disarmed by radiation or fumigation (or time?). ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 21:06:03 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: standards for organic success MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Hi All Chris described UK Organic Standards thus: > For practical beekeeping purposes they are unmeetable, > even by hobby beekeepers. Here are examples of the criteria which need to be met for certification as organic: Origin of bees: - must be from division of colonies or swarms derived from stock kept to these organic criteria (except for 10% of the stock which can be brought in from non-certified sources annually) Siting of colonies: - plants in a radius of 3km must be 'spontaneous vegetation' or organic crops or 'crops treated with low environmental impact' - the more stringent Soil Association standards require a 4 mile (6.4 km) separation, which may be why, in our crowded islands, no-one in the UK is yet able to produce organic honey to these standards - 'maintain enough distance' (unspecified) from urban centres, motorways, industrial areas, waste dumps etc Feeding: - must be left with sufficient reserves of honey and pollen to survive the winter - in extreme climatic conditions, can be fed with organic honey, preferably from the same unit (or possibly organic sugar syrup in some situations) Diseases: - prevent by using hardy stock and 'certain practices' including regular renewing of beeswax - phytotherapeutic and homeopathic products preferred to allelopathic ones - permitted allelopathic products (within the limits of the law) can be the acids and thymol, menthol, eucalyptol or camphor - if you need to treat with other chemicals, colonies must be placed in isolation apiaries, all wax replaced, and then you need to wait one year for re-conversion to certified organic Forbidden practices: - destruction of bees to harvest honey - mutilating the queen by clipping wings - using synthetic chemicals as repellants at harvest (sorry Jim) All in all, a fairly onerous set of criteria, which will have the effect of keeping organic production very restricted and relatively inefficient. Here in Scotland I could probably meet the criteria more easily than Chris, but then I'd be regularly travelling long distances to sites sufficiently isolated from conventional agriculture and other man-dominated sites - hardly sustainable beekeeping. best wishes Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 19:08:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Scot & All, Scot said: >I just shake the frames. Snap Snap, they are free of bees. Takes less time than using Bee Go... Some hobby beekeepers on the list might buy the above but all the sideline & commercial will get a chuckle from the above. There is no way removing each frame and removing bees from each frame is *faster* (let alone takes less time) than using a fume board. We use as many as 10 fume boards at a time. We place on the hive ssupers and move on. cross ways first to give bees a chance to exit. When we return (several minutes later)many times (in hot weather) we can pull two supers of 9 frames at once and toss on the pallet. Plus we do not have the problem of robbing bees trying to reenter the super. tip: We leave the fume board on top the removed super until the super is placed on the special honey house pallet( keep bees from reentering bee free super) . Then the fume board is removed and a special bee proof lid is placed on the bee free super. The pallet is loaded on a large flatbed truck and moved to the honey house. The pallet is removed by forklift and sat in the honey house. The special pallet is moved and lifted up to 32 in. in the air in the honey house by a special pallet jack. Each super is handled ONE TIME by hand. Off the hive and on the special pallet. I also have got a bee boom which would eliminate even handling the first time but the boys pulling supers would rather lift the boxes than mess with the boom. frames are ONLY removed from the box when they go in the uncapping machine. Does Scot and Dee's method use less labor? Certainly less bee go. My method works equally well with Fischer's bee quick. The fume board as no equal on speed of removing supers! Blowing bees (which we do when temps are too low for a fume board to work) is slower than a fume board and more work. Sincerely, Bob Harrison "approaching fifty years of beekeeping " -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 20:41:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: CCD resistant bees for $110/hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The North Carolina Department of Agriculture publishes a newspaper each month that consists mostly of free classified ads. One of the advertisements in the bee section this month--which I received today--reads as follows: 50 new beehives with bees resistant to colony collapse disorder, mites, SHB and AFB, $110/ea. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 04:04:09 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: standards for organic success MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The most important items in the list of UK organic rules posted by Gavin are: > - plants in a radius of 3km must be 'spontaneous vegetation' or organic > crops or 'crops treated with low environmental impact' This is most likely wrong and it should start like this: most of the plants ....... which means more than 50 % Also the end >'crops treated with low environmental impact' is important as this refers at least here in Finland to fields the are farmed according to EU environmental farming rules. These mean restricted amounts of fertilization and chemical use. As the farmers get a big part of subsidies from farming under environmental rules almost all field area here is included in this. When the first rule says more than 50 % is enough and the other includes most normally farmed fields this means that organic beekeeping is possible in Finland in most of the country excluding areas near cities, main motorways, waste dumps etc. The radius from these has been set here to 6 km. I recommend all English beekeepers interested in organic beekeeping to see what these points exactly mean in England, and would be interested to know the answer myself too. Maybe many of you are not limited by the restrictions about the beekeeping area for organic. Ari Seppälä Finland ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 07:03:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: standards for organic success In-Reply-To: <984483.64402.qm@web86210.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An interesting paper on Maple syrup reflects what they are going through, which is similar to honey. No national standard, conflicting local standards, no real reason for doing one thing or another, and it is all about money with nothing to do with the quality or purity of the product. http://counties.cce.cornell.edu/Washington/Ag/Hort/CCEWash_Hort.html Click on the link about Maple syrup. It is interesting that some maple syrup producers wonder why all the fuss about organic since they produce a product that is "organic' without going through all the organic hoops. Sounds familiar. Actually a balanced article. Plus, it is from Cornell, so you can trust it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 07:17:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: standards for organic success In-Reply-To: <984483.64402.qm@web86210.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wondered what "organic sugar syrup" was and came across this letter to the USDA on the USDA website. I excerpted it below but the link take you to the document. Interesting that you need organic sugar to produce honey sweetened organic produce. > nSpired Natural Foods currently uses organic evaporated cane juice to > produce Maranatha® brand > Honey Sweetened Almond Butter and Honey Sweetened Peanut Spread, as > well as Ah!Laska ® > brand Organic Chocolate Syrup. Evaporated cane juice of adequate > quality cannot be produced > without the use of calcium hydroxide, since there is no suitable > alternative processing aid. Being a > basic ingredient and a versatile sweetener with unique > (flavor-neutral, handling, etc) characteristics, > organic evaporated cane juice (made with calcium hydroxide) is > essential in our formulation without > which we would not be able to produce our honey sweetened nut butters > or organic chocolate syrup. > > In addition, please note that calcium hydroxide is permitted for use > in the production of organic sugar > under European Union regulation number 2092/91. The removal of calcium > hydroxide from the > National List and the resulting incompatibility between organic > standards would all but eliminate the > export of “organic”, sugar-containing products to the EU, the largest > market for US produced multi- > ingredient products. http://www.ams.usda.gov/NOP/PublicComments/Sunset/Handling/NSpiredNaturalFoods.pdf In some future time, historians will call this the "Age of Unintentional Humor". Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 08:55:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?Windows-1252?Q?Juan_Carlos_Fern=E1ndez_Campos?= Subject: Re: CCD resistant bees for $110/hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i think taht someone is trying to pull your legs boys, jajajajajaj Regards Juan Carlos Fernández ----- Original Message ----- > 50 new beehives with bees resistant to colony collapse disorder, mites, SHB and AFB, $110/ea. _____________________________________________________________ »» Sistema de Correos Facultad de Cultura Física -- Camagüey -- Cuba «« » Administrado por GESPRO (Grupo de Estudio de Software y Proyectos) « » Este mensaje ha sido analizado con MDaemon Kaspersky Antivirus « ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 09:01:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carl & Virginia Webb Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob & Scot, What not advise to blow out the bees if you object to fume boards? A = small hand held Stihl leaf blower will remove bees from shallow supers, = without the necessity of removing individual frames, about as quickly = and as completely as a fume board will. In fact some beekeepers carry a = blower to finish the fume board job. Carl Webb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 09:39:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: He lost half his 13,000 hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline North Dakota, with an estimated 382,500 hives, led the country in honey production last year. "This is a really big deal for the honey industry here," state Agriculture Commissioner Roger Johnson said. Randy Verhoek of Bismarck said he lost half his 13,000 hives this year, costing him about $400,000. "We'd go out one day and find full boxes, and a week later they would just be gone," he said. Verhoek said he lost money because he did not have his normal hive count for pollination in California almond orchards. He said he had to send weakened hives to Texas for rebuilding. Verhoek and Gackle beekeeper John Miller, with 10,000 hives, say the phenomenon of collapsing colonies may have many causes, including drought, disease and insecticides. Miller said neither scientists nor beekeepers understand what's at the root of the collapsing colonies. He believes about a third of collapsing colony disorder is due to poor management by the beekeepers. "They aren't following the new standards for hive husbandry," Miller said. "Things have changed." www.havredailynews.com -- Peter L. Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 09:52:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: > We use as many as 10 fume boards at a time. I used 16. You use as many as you can keep up with. If it's hot out you may have to run to get the supers off fast enough to avoid driving the clean bees out of the hives. > Blowing bees (which we do when temps are too low for a fume board to work)is slower than a fume board and more work. Also, very noisy, which I find the most annoying. I like to listen to the radio when I work, so bee blowers and weed whackers are not my friends. However, in cool autumn weather a blower is efficient. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 10:34:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? correction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter: If it's hot out you may have to run to get the supers off fast enough to avoid driving the clean bees out of the hives. What are the clean bees?! That should have read "driving the bees clean out of the hives" pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 14:42:26 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: standards for organic success MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Ari > This is most likely wrong and it should start like this: most of the > plants ....... which means more than 50 % In fact the full text of this part of the Compendium of UK Organic Standards published by DEFRA is: - be such that, within a radius of 3 km from the apiary site, nectar and pollen sources consist essentially of organic crops and/or spontaneous vegetation, according to the requirements of Provision 6 and Annex I of these Standards, and crops not subject to the provisions of this Regulation but treated with low environmental impact methods such as, for example, those described in programmes developed under Regulation (EEC) N° 2078/92 which cannot significantly affect the qualification of beekeeping production as being organic; So it is 'consist essentially of', not 'more than 50%', in the UK. As for 'low environmental impact methods', you are fortunate if in Finland almost all field area is included. Our main organic certifier is the Soil Association. They take a strong stance on criteria, and use very similar words to those above, extending the radius to 6.4km (4 miles). I doubt that they would consider all Agri-Environment schemes under regulation 2078/92 as acceptable. In the Soil Association's own standards they do say: <> My interest comes from an idea to produce honey to Soil Association standards so that a friend of mine, who runs an organic vegetable production and retail business (to Soil Association standards) could also sell my honey. He tells me that there is no UK SA-certified honey in the UK as yet, probably because of their use of a 4 mile radius and the standards they apply. I too would be interested to hear the experience of others in the UK. I know that there was one commercial outfit near me exploring the possibility of organic production, but I don't know if they were successful. The Soil Association's wish to force similar standards on other apiaries in the same outfit may prove too much of a hurdle for some: << With our permission, you may have apiaries in nearby non-organic areas, but you must manage them to all other aspects of these beekeeping standards. >> best wishes Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 08:55:35 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>I just shake the frames. Snap Snap, they are free of bees. Takes less time >>than using Bee Go... I thought you were using top bar hives, Scot? Do you use conventional supers on them? If top bar frames, then can they withstand shaking? > There is no way removing each frame and removing bees from each frame is > *faster* (let alone takes less time) than using a fume board. We use as > many as 10 fume boards at a time. IMO, It depends on your style of beekeeping, and your crop, Bob. For small operators, with clean equipment and no excluders, manual removal can be amazingly fast, and only the frames that need to go home go home. > We leave the fume board on top the removed super until the super is placed > on the special honey house pallet( keep bees from reentering bee free > super) Then the fume board is removed and a special bee proof lid is > placed on the bee free super. I've heard that these two things are not recommended, if the frames are at all uncapped, since they trap the repellant in the box and result in much higher absorption. > Each super is handled ONE TIME by hand. Off the hive and on the special > pallet ...frames are ONLY removed from the box when they go in the > uncapping machine. However, oftentimes, in my experience, the supers contain many frames that should not have gone the honeyhouse, sometimes as much as 2/3rs of them, on average. This is especially true in poor crop years, when pulling supers before moving, and at the end of the season or where excluders are not used. In these cases, an arguement can be made for hand-sorting in the bee yard, especially where an experienced beekeeper is doing the work, not half-trained labourers. > Does Scot and Dee's method use less labor? In some cases, I think so, and results in less trucking, which in Dee's case is important since she is way up in the desert across arroyos and through locked gates. It is also more targetted and gets some beekeeping done at the same time. > The fume board as no equal on speed of removing supers! That is true, but it is a shotgun approach. Abandonment is also quick. Each technique has its place. > Blowing bees (which we do when temps are too low for a fume board to work) > is slower than a fume board and more work. That's is for sure, and much more violent in many cases. In some yard layouts and conditions, blowing results in bees on the ground underfoot and clinging to everything. Chutes help, but don't completely solve the problems. One tip, though: I have used the blower to blow bees down in the boxes while still on the hive, just like a fume board. This can't always work, and sometimes could be damaging, especially with a strong blower right above the brood chamber. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 08:21:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Fume boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >We use as many as 10 fume boards at a time. When we pull honey on 100° days, two strong beekeepers are lucky to keep up with 5 fume boards! If we miss a step, we've got bees pouring out the entrances. We use BeeGo in cooler weather, benz in warmer. I also dislike the noise of the blowers, but find them useful to blow the remaining bees out when we're pulling deeps. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 11:27:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot McPherson Organization: McPherson Family Farms Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: <004601c78f72$a4eeb6e0$17bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>I just shake the frames. Snap Snap, they are free of bees. Takes less time >>than using Bee Go... >Some hobby beekeepers on the list might buy the above but all the sideline >& commercial will get a chuckle from the above. Bob, Its good to see you haven't lost your personal touch. You really could be more be careful when you make claims like the above, because not all commercial and sideline beekeepers do things like you. It might be accurate to say " **many** the sideline & commercial will get a chuckle from the above." However, what you have said is quite clearly false because "all commercial beekeepers and sideline beekeepers" don't all do things your way. Scot McPherson McPherson Family Farms Davenport, IA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 10:00:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: CCD resistant bees for $110/hive & Posted Bond In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric Brown wrote:advertisements in the bee section this month--reads as follows: 50 new beehives with bees resistant to colony collapse disorder, mites, SHB and AFB, $110/ea. Wonder if the person has posted a bond to cover those hives which do not comply with the ad? Mike in LA --------------------------------- It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 12:35:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: He lost half his 13,000 hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, >North Dakota, with an estimated 382,500 hives, led the country in honey production last year. . Like the Einstein quote the above is not true. In fact North Dakota did not lead the nation in 2005 stats. Fifth I think (from memory). Randy Verhoek of Bismarck said he lost half his 13,000 hives this year Miller said: He believes about a third of collapsing colony disorder is due to poor management by the beekeepers. "They aren't following the new standards for hive husbandry," Miller said. "Things have changed." Does the above mean John Miller thinks a third of his friend Randy V. hives died because of "poor management " and not CCD/drought problems? Also every beekeeper I have spoken with from North Dakota said they had NEVER seen a year in the Dakotas like 2006. John Miller is in North Dakota. Temperatures in the 120F. range. thousands of hives died on locations not close to water. Severe drought and lack of pollen & nectar.. Adee article in Jan. 2007 Bee Culture (pg.34): " honey production wasn't up to standard in 2006" Not much to glean here but a hint of problems. Those I spoke with were quite vocal about the empty drums of honey this year. I do find it interesting how a single beekeeper can be in the same area of drought and related problems and come out unscathed? What was the 2006 season and honey production like for BEE-L members from the Dakotas? Drought problems? Best honey year ever ( or at least average?) Please share your experiences with us. Across the South Dakota border in Nebraska beekeepers saw huge honey crops in the Eastern part of the state. East from the Dakotas saw bumper crops in areas of those states. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 13:54:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Pulling honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Some hobby beekeepers on the list might buy the above but all the sideline commercial will get a chuckle from the above. > what you have said is quite clearly false because "all commercial beekeepers and sideline beekeepers" don't all do things your way. Come on, it's just an expression, like "all my friends are democrats". Well, I don't know if they all are; some are probably non-voters. ;) Anyway, I think you can see what he meant. Most beekeepers with more than twenty hives should find another way to take off honey besides brushing and shaking. It's very hard work, tends to rile 'em up, and what's worst -- causes leakage. Any method of taking off honey which minimizes leakage and robbing is better in my book. I have three friends in my neighborhood who run around 400 colonies each. These are not sideliners in my book, though they supplement their income with other occupations. Two use fume boards and one uses bee escape boards. I understand the objection to fumes, so the bee escape boards seem like a very good solution to taking off large amounts of honey without pulling the supers apart. If you have enough escape boards, you can put escapes on part of the day and pull honey that was set up the day before. I don't like having to handle it twice in the yard, but taking off supers with no bees in sight is such a breeze that it's worth it. But -- you have to use queen excluders or you run the risk of escaping off the queen. By the way, I don't agree with everything Bob does or says, but I sure agree with him on this one. And I appreciate his presence on the list as a beekeeper with many years of experience. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 12:03:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: CCD resistant bees for $110/hive In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Eric Brown said 50 new beehives with bees resistant to colony collapse disorder, mites, SHB and AFB, $110/ea. Eric here is my question: is the $ for US$ or Pesos. This is the fastest breeding program for CCD I ever experienced. Beekeepers should be happy. A solution for CCD has been found. Medhat ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 13:26:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: He lost half his 13,000 hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter: Miller said neither scientists nor beekeepers understand what's at the root of the collapsing colonies.He believes about a third of collapsing colony disorder is due to poor management by the beekeepers. "They aren't following the new standards for hive husbandry," Miller said. "Things have changed." Reply: Boy, can I believe that one for not understanding how a natural system works anymore, as beekeepers have gotten more into factory farming with bees and more and more artificial knowingless dysorder. Don't think I would want to follow any new standards for hive husbandry seeing how things are going, while going back to good old-fashioned ways that have worked for years prior to 1930 while just keeping modern equipment for me seems to work just fine for this poor old woman. Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 16:08:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Russian crosses In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric Brown wrote:........... experience with Russian crosses was that they were, for me, intolerably "mean." I wonder if others with statistically more significant experiences could relate similar stories. Eric I don't have statistically more significant experience with the Russians, but I have had Russians in my bee yard. With neither the pure Russians (Charlie Harper) nor the queens which superseded them did I have any problems with meanness. I worked them the same way I did with VSH strain and an Italian/Buckfast cross and all were gentle most of the time. I can even remember working the bees up until it started raining with an incoming thunderstorm and had no problems with pestiferous bees. Of course, this was during a pretty heavy honey flow. Mike Located in the lower west portion of Alabama --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:09:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: standards for organic success In-Reply-To: <863092.16903.qm@web86206.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin Ramsay wrote: > My interest comes from an idea to produce honey to Soil Association standards so that a friend of mine, who runs an organic vegetable production and retail business (to Soil Association standards) could also sell my honey. He tells me that there is no UK SA-certified honey in the UK as yet, probably because of their use of a 4 mile radius and the standards they apply. > > Gavin, Can other countries sell "Organic" honey in the UK?. It would meet their standards but maybe (probably) not yours. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:14:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? In-Reply-To: <00a701c78ffb$81dc7320$1000a8c0@mcpfarms.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot said: " You really could be more be careful when you make claims like the above, because not all commercial and sideline beekeepers do things like you. It might be accurate to say " **many** the sideline & commercial will get a chuckle from the above." However, what you have said is quite clearly false because "all commercial beekeepers and sideline beekeepers" don't all do things your way." I have 42 hives, so I guess that makes me almost a sideliner. (Is 50 the switch from hobby to sideline?) When I first started, I would shake the frames to get the bees off. I must have tenacious bees because even after I got good at it, it took more than two shakes to get all the bees off. Then I tried bee escapes, which worked really well, as long as you got to the hives immediately after about 24 hours and took them off. That hive I forgot about...boy did the wax moth have a field day with my crop in that super. I've tried the blower, but again, I must have tenacious bees...that didn't get them all out. Fume boards work best for me. Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:34:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Gillmore Subject: Tracheal Mite - Colony Collapse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wonder if someone would describe what a dead out would look like due = to collapse from Tracheal Mite infestation. Excluding k-wing and bees = crawling in the grass, what might you discover "in the hive" of a colony = that succumbed to T-mites. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 17:12:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: CCD resistant bees for $110/hive In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Medhat: Hey, just thinking. What if it were simply small cell bees that are happy and healthy........;>) Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 17:17:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: CCD resistant bees for $110/hive & Posted Bond In-Reply-To: <625513.44171.qm@web53407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike: Wonder if the person has posted a bond to cover those hives which do not comply with the ad? Reply: Hey that would really make things interesting, especially for gov patented bee lines for those not fitting the mould for traits as stated and doind as supposed to do. So where would it end then for complying with the ad? Requeening then or supercedure or other? What would the parameters be you see? Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 00:20:45 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: standards for organic success MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Hi Bill As I understand it (never thought that I'd end up advising on 'organic' issues on here!), for food to be labelled in the EU as 'Organic' it needs to meet or exceed the European standards. http://www.food.gov.uk/foodindustry/farmingfood/organicfood/ As Ari has pointed out, different EU governments can interpret the EU rules in slightly different ways. It seems that he can produce organic honey more easily than in the UK - because of both the rural landscape in Finland and his regulator's interpretation of the EU rules. If his honey meets EU standards as interpeted by his regulators then he can sell honey in the UK, even if he could not find a certification agency in the UK which would have accepted that interpretation of the rules. That's my interpretation anyway! Because of its rather fundamentalist approach to the topic, the Soil Association in the UK (an independent campaigning organisation and one of the UK's organic certification agencies) is the Gold Standard and is widely trusted by organic buyers. Finnish organic honey might be slightly less attractive to the organic honey buyer than one with a Soil Association logo - but the latter seem to have gone too far on this one and made their product almost impossible to produce. all the best Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 20:19:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: CCD on CBS In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CBS is airing a report on CCD on the evening news tomorrow (Monday 7 May). George- ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 17:29:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Pulling honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst writes: It's very hard work, tends to rile'em up, and what's worst -- causes leakage. Any method of taking off honey which minimizes leakage and robbing is better in my book. Reply: Really, haven't seen that. So what are you doing to create such a mess Peter? Perhaps you need some hands on training for taking honey with a brush and doing then. Come on down anytime you want then and I will personally show you how, for it is easy and fast, and adds no more than an hour work on average to a yard, with full inspections of broodnest to know brood for knowing(any problems apparent) what each hive needs by personal analyis as you go thru your bees. Just come on down! Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 21:06:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: He lost half his 13,000 hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob Harrison wrote: > In fact North Dakota did not lead the nation in 2005 stats. Fifth I think (from memory). Nope, the numbes for 2005: North Dakota 33,670,000 pounds California 30,000,000 South Dakota 17,380,000 Florida 13,760,000 In 2006, the lineup was almost the same, with lower numbers ND 25,900,000 CA 19,760,000 FL 13,770,000 SD 10,575,000 -- Peter L. Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 20:21:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Janet & All, >I have 42 hives, so I guess that makes me almost a sideliner. The numbers of hives a person runs has little to due with beekeeping knowledge. However when you run larger numbers you find faster methods of doing many things which do not seem time consuming for the hobby beekeeper. See problems perhaps a smaller beekeeper might not encounter. I belong to the Bonsai Society of Kansas City. I own one small bonsai tree. The tree is around 12 years old. The tree is the only house plant I own. I am the only family member which cares for the small tree. There are members of the Bonsai club which keep close to 200 bonsai. Some are priceless. Mine is a common juniper. My tree would most likely not bring the price of a years membership in the Bonsai society. However I spent three years in Japan and am well versed in Bonsai. I like my Bonsai tree but feel sorry for it some times because I have to stunt its growth so the tree will survive in the ridiculas small pot I keep it in. My instructions to my family is to plant the tree outside on the hill on my farm if I should pass before the tree does. Bonsai tree require attention each day and can die easily. Owning a 100 would only be a huge amount of work. Trees dying each year no doubt. The beekeeper with only a hive or two I am sure feels the same way. I am sure they feel they can get the same enjoyment from a hive or two as they can from caring for a 100 hives. Janet said: > Fume boards work best for me. The use of a fume board needs to be done carefully and observations made. Once you learn the amount of chemical to place on the fume board changes with many things such as the temperature then you have greater success. carefully place the chemical on the fume board! When pulling supers only I put chemical on the fume board. Help is forbidden too place chemical on fume boards. They are fee to voice the opinion the boards need chemical. If help thinks the boards are too slow I place a fume board on a hive and time the time it takes to remove the bees. A fume board soaked in chemical is not correct. Less chemical is correct. Too much chemical has the effect of stupefying the bees and the bees do not leave the supers! Too much is not better with bee go nor bee quick! Always place the fume board crossways and let the bees on top escape the fumes. Then slide the board into position. Once you peek in and the bees have left the super then and only then remove the super for the honey processing area. My method is to pick up the super with the fume board still on and sit the super on the pallet. many times the remaining bees if still in the super will drop from the bottom to escape the fumes and fly out. Once on the pallet I quickly remove the fume board and cover the stack with a cover. I deal with young impatient help which do not want to wait until the bees exit the super. The problem late in the day is not so much the fume boards are not doing there job but rather the help is not waiting long enough. A common problem with bee quick is putting too much product on the fume board. I did quite a bit of experimenting with bee quick and two never released versions of the product named turbo & nitro. Both those products my help liked better than bee go or honey robber. Tip: If bee go or honey robber is making your eyes burn most likely you are putting too much product on the fume board. If you can still smell bee go or honey robber in the hot room the next day in my opinion you used too much product on the fume board. Bee Quick is the product I feel is safest. Jim Fischer says you could drink the product without ill effects. I guess I will have to take his word on that one! Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 21:31:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: standards for organic success Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > never thought that I'd end up advising on 'organic' issues on here Why is that? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 20:01:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Pulling honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm located about 90 miles north of the Gulf of Mexico in Alabama. Gets warm here. We have small hive beetles. Using a bee escape board really crimps the time one has to extract the honey and get the supers back on the hives so that the bees can dry 'em up, and to take care of the beetles. I've found that with the frames dry and exposed to light and air that I don't have any problem with hive beetles or wax moth (so far). I like it that way. Don't have to trouble with setting up fume boards for the wax moth crystal. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 22:34:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot McPherson Organization: McPherson Family Farms Subject: FW: [BEE-L] "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I thought you were using top bar hives, Scot? Do you use conventional >supers on them? If top bar frames, then can they withstand shaking? You are right I am a top bar hive beekeeper, and I almost made reference to that in response to Bob's chuckles. However I didn't want Bob to blow coffee out his nose when he read it. I do not use supers. Yes top bars (a.k.a. frames) can withstand shaking, however it requires care which means do it right the first time. I however only do it when I am harvesting that frame. There is no reason to shake bees off of a comb unless you are removing it. You only get one chance because although the comb might not break when shaking it (and you bet it can break), you will significantly weaken the midrib and you do not want to return it to the hive so it can break later while inside the hive. Scot McPherson McPherson Family Farms Davenport, IA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 23:01:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite - Colony Collapse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike & All, >I wonder if someone would describe what a dead out would look like due to collapse from Tracheal Mite infestation. I saw my first TM dieoffs in 1985. I had read for years about TM but had no personal experience. First experience: All hives in the yard were either dead with no bees or a small cluster of bees with a queen. I loaded the deadouts on the truck along with two hives still barely alive and returned to the home yard. I sampled the two still alive and sent the samples to my friend Horace Bell in Florida to check for tracheal mite ( as I did not have a microscope at the time). Horace checked and informed me of a tracheal mite infestation. The two hives at the house died within a couple weeks. Samples of other yards did not turn up TM . I got a microscope and began treating for TM. One yard ( 28 hives if I remember correctly) was the extent of my losses to TM. Half the commercial hives in the U.S. were reported lost to TM and most of the feral colonies. I have looked at other beekeepers bees and the small cluster (handful of bees and queen) with plenty of honey and pollen seems a common TM sign. Other than the crawlers etc. and wing problems. When varroa hit your strongest and best hives in fall would drop down to about 4-5 frames of bees. You could ad an apistan strip to check mite drop and fill a sticky board in a few hours and find plenty of varroa in brood. My first serious losses from varroa came in hives I had bought. The beekeeper had tried to reuse apistan strips a second time. I put in some new strips but the hives all still died. Twice when the mites became resistant to the treatments I was using and no other legal treatment was available I lost many hives. My friend Allen Dick said he thinks he never lost a hive to varroa. I wish I could say the same! Varroa is still causing beekeepers grief! I have got a copy of the CRS *Report to Congress* on my desk.(order code RL 33938) On page 7 under the heading "Possible causes for Colony Collapse Disorder" The number one possible cause is ( many others also listed) : parasites ,mites,and disease loads in bees and brood CRS stands for congressional Research Service Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 23:11:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: He lost half his 13,000 hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter and All, You are right! I was thinking per hive honey yield which I believe ND was fifth in 2005 when I checked and way down as reported by beekeepers this year. I should have realized the total amount of honey produced in the state might have been the highest amount. I didn't find any figures for 2006. How did you find those figures? Peter is correct and I am wrong. Stupid mistake on my part! Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 08:13:34 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: standards for organic success MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Hi Allen > Why is that? I'm pro-science (and indeed a scientist) and I react against faith-based approaches. Also, I believe that GM is one tool amongst many which mankind needs to make agricultural production more sustainable. The Soil Association is vehemently opposed to that view and has been at the forefront of the effort in the UK to remove GM from the food chain, as I once discovered when I shared a debating platform with its leader, Patrick Holden. all the best Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 09:16:03 +0100 Reply-To: pencaemawr@f2s.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Burgess Subject: Re: standards for organic success In-Reply-To: <463E6015.1030004@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > > > Can other countries sell "Organic" honey in the UK?. It would meet > their standards but maybe (probably) not yours. > The Soil Association are prepared to certify produce from other countries on the basis of comparison of the relevant local standards with their own, supplemented by local visits/discussions if necessary. To my knowledge they certify Organic Honey from New Zealand, Argentina, Mexico, and possibly some African countries. I don't know of any US honey being approved, possibly because of the ill-defined nature of "organic" in the US which is apparent from these discussions. You need to remember that the use of the word "Organic" applied to food in the EU is illegal unless it has been certified by a recognised body. John Burgess ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 04:57:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Pulling honey- wax moth In-Reply-To: <216713.5038.qm@web53405.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Need some help here. I keep reading on this list that those who store their supers open have no problem with wax moth. But neither do I since wax moth only bothers with brood supers. (We tend to use "supers" exclusively for honey supers.) I can get away with storing brood supers open over one winter but not necessarily one summer. If I do, even in Maine, I will eventually get wax moth damage. So do those who store brood supers open over more than a season have no wax moth damage? I think that the time they are not in use has more to do with it than method of storage. Even wax moths have a life cycle that would have to be matched with availability of empty brood comb. I do not like to store my honey supers open since it only encourages robbing. Lots on this in the archives. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 05:01:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/05/2007 23:32:33 GMT Standard Time, naturebee@YAHOO.COM writes: If I understand correctly, Bob is planning to insert 2 frames of small cell in the broodnest It would be simpler to put a complete box of frames fitted with the desired size foundation (or starter strips) above the brood box and let them move up. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 05:14:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD resistant bees for $110/hive & Posted Bond In-Reply-To: <625513.44171.qm@web53407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You could sell CCD resistant bees and guarantee them since they are more likely to die from mites than CCD. Florida reports that only 2% of beekeepers in the State say they had CCD, and small operations would be the ones buying these great bees. Add that even that 2% is suspect. Even the 2% that wanted their money back could not prove the bees died from CCD when no one knows what CCD is. It is a slam dunk. However I would advice the seller not to guarantee that the bees would not be beamed up by aliens, since that has a higher probability. BTDT Bill Truesdell (I find it best to cover your whole body with tin foil, not just the head.) Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 05:10:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: pulling honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Also Tim on our list makes and sells a Plexiglas top fume board with an battery powered motor. I field tested one he sent me. They work great, use less chemical and you can look through the Plexiglas top to see when the bees leave the super. I also paint the top of all my fume boards black. Simple to do and is well worth the time & paint. I have also cut a four inch hole in the center of the fume board before and added a 90 degree bend of stove pipe. The pipe is not attached to the fume board. Really helps speed the process. Turn the pipe in the direction the wind is blowing. These I use only when getting the bees to leave the super is problematic. Such as low temperature. Using a bee blower as suggested after using a fume board I have never tried. If I am in a hurry (rain coming or getting dark) I can bring a certain amount of bees in with the supers. I have got a screen door to the outside of the honey processing area on which the bees will leave the boxes and go to. I then have got one of those bee vacuums which does not harm the bees. I vacuum the bees and remove to one of the hives I keep around for those bees. Or one of the hives I keep around for any brood which we might have brought in. I have bigger problems with bees trying to get into the honey processing area after the supers are in than with bringing in with supers. We can always tell when the honey flow stops or slows down by the number of bees trying to get into the processing area. I have before piped air from the hot room 60 feet and let the air exit on the opposite side of the building. Works great most of the time as the bees try to enter the screened opening and are not hanging around the overhead door to the honey processing area. There are several methods of killing the bees in the processing area but do not use those. I have used the electric grid but find they stink and I hate the sound of a bee getting electrocuted! Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 06:28:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Poll results In-Reply-To: <863092.16903.qm@web86206.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you count only those on the list, and assume half of them viewed my two posts we start with a base of about 300. 16 participated or 5%, which is about the norm for something like this. Of those respondents, four reported CCD, but of those four, three were not sure it was CCD and were hobby beekeeper with few colonies. Only one large operation reported definite CCD loss and they lost over 500 colonies. My poll at our annual meeting showed 2 out of 154 reported CCD (both were hobby beekeepers) and after interviewing one, it was probably Tracheal. Even so, you have the 2% figure that Florida reported. Those who used Formic or Thymol products had no losses they could ascribe to CCD. They knew how to use both and they knew what killed the few colonies they lost. Few is the operative word here. The losses were pre-mite winter loss. These numbers track those of the CCD group. A few large operations have sustained the greatest loss. The problem is not wide spread, just the numbers from those who have it magnify the problem. I came into this poll with major bias problem. First, I know some who claim it is CCD have no idea what they actually have and are only blaming the newest buzz word. CCD covers a variety of ills. Second, some who claim it is CCD had heavy mite loads before their losses and were warned that they would lose their colonies that year. They did, but that did not stop them from claiming CCD. It appears the group has accepted CCD over mites. Third, reliance is placed on the word of the beekeeper of their prior state and there is no good pre-CCD data to rule out mites or other things that could have led to CCD symptoms. Since there is such a small number who may actually suffer from CCD, with no pre-collapse data taken by the group, we are looking at residue and not necessarily cause. As a chemist, I want to know not what the end compound is, but the beginning materials, process and end. Fourth, we really do not know the extent of CCD, mostly because of 1-3 and also because it has been hyped and amplified by fear mongers championing their agendas. It has hurt some large operations but a minority. It is not nearly as wide spread as the Tracheal kills of the 90s. Figures like 25% of colonies and 2% of beekeepers are not a disaster except to the beekeeper who suffers the loss. We recovered from Tracheal and it was worse than CCD. Fifth, those who I talk with, and I have talked (email and phone) with many across the country, have not seen CCD. I know the group has. My correspondents have seen supposed CCD but are much closer to those who claim that and know the practices of the affected beekeeper. They tend to discount CCD and blame the beekeeper since they know what is actually going on in those apiaries.In some cases it is more than practices, it is actual inspection. Sixth, CCD will be the cause of all colony losses as soon as an indemnity program is established by the government. That is only a start and probably mirrors others who have a problem with the hype, and I use that word guardedly, with CCD. It maybe nosema or stone brood or any of a variety of pathogens, but it has taken away the real beekeeping issue, and I will continue that thought in another post. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 07:06:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Losing the bubble or poll, part 2 In-Reply-To: <863092.16903.qm@web86206.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The English language has some great words and phrases. Ephemeral, will-of-the-wisp, CCD. I have a strong feeling that we are engaged in the pursuit of something that will not be found, while the real problem is right in front of our face. Let us say, even though I doubt it, we find the underlying cause of CCD. You would then be able to rule out most of the other colony collapses and the end result could be that the problem is manageable or seasonal. Nosema, use Fumidil. End of problem, end of funding, end of disaster relief. Meanwhile, the real problem of beekeeping in the US is mites and the pathogens that thrive in their presence. That will continue and all the attention will disappear, just as it has since the first Tracheal mite. The team seems intent on ruling out (to me, the obvious) mites. Over the past decades mites have been the real scourge of bees. All the pathogens we now suffer from were there before mites. The different virus were known to exist with bees but were considered a small problem since they did little damage. Most beekeepers, including Inspectors, had never seen virus at work in a colony. Now symptoms are commonplace and the only change is mites. In fact, some of the virus and other pathogens still have not had all their symptoms identified when a colony is under multiple infections and/or both mites. It really does not matter if he cause of CCD is some new pathogen. It may not even be new but just one more thing that can infect bees through mites. It might be something a simple as a natural control of numbers. Nature does not like one species getting too numerous, especially bugs. There are a variety of controls imposed by nature which include fungus, virus and other nasties that will spread rapidly within a group if they are in close proximity, which means there are too many of them. That would be aided by weakened immune systems. Mites again. The beekeeping community and the CCD group should change the emphasis from CDD, whatever it is or may be, to mites as the overriding problem and get Congress also interested. CCD is a subset of a problem suffered by most beekeepers world wide, not the major problem. We have a known problem that takes more bees every year from more beekeepers than CCD did, has, or probably ever will. That is the real beekeeping issue. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 12:19:48 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>formulations of lead, arsenic and mercury were applied to crops >>in 1400s. I'd argue that crops provided minimum forage to honey bees back then. There was no big agri-business. Most colonies were kept in bee trees in the pristine forests. A substantial part of the people's food in Europe came from forests back then. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 08:34:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: standards for organic success MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/05/2007 22:20:24 GMT Standard Time, gavinrbox-beel@YAHOO.CO.UK writes: Here in Scotland I could probably meet the criteria more easily than Chris, but then I'd be regularly travelling long distances to sites sufficiently isolated from conventional agriculture and other man-dominated sites - hardly sustainable beekeeping. Maybe Murray could do it as I think he is about 30 miles from the nearest public road. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 05:55:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bee-quick@BEE-QUICK.COM Subject: Re: CCD or MVCAS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > Last sentence [in an ABJ article] says: > > "Assessing all of the factors that affect bee health at the > correct time, and interpreting the results in relation to > provisional thresholds and interactions, takes the mystery > out of why honey bees are dying." No, it does not take ANY mystery out of it. The acronym "MCVAS" has been around for a while. It has nothing to do with the actual work of trying to find clues to what is causing CCD, and, like all the other preconceived notions floating around, it is "an answer looking for a question". I find the suggestion that MCVAS somehow "solves the mystery" to be laughable. What can it tell us, beyond the obvious point that honeybees are subjected to multiple "stresses" at the same time, and that they can have a cumulative impact? Everyone and their brother seems to want to tie their wagon to CCD in hope of getting funding, attention, or both. This lameOrz is no better than the wide-eyed purveyors of "Cell Phones" as a cause of CCD. Nothing of value is added to the "knowns", nor does it provide any testable statement to confirm or refute. It is not science at all, it is speculation, voiced in a smug tone. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 09:06:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: standards for organic success Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> Why is that? >I'm pro-science (and indeed a scientist) and I react against faith-based approaches. OK. Got it. For a minute there, I was afraid you were going to say that this list is too critical and cynical, like the faith-driven people from the feel-good lists and forums do. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 13:09:49 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: He lost half his 13,000 hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Temperatures in the 120F. range. thousands of hives died on locations not close to water. Severe drought and lack of pollen & nectar.. A California beekeeper writes in the latest ABJ, that colonies die in California unless fed pollen in the fall. Colonies not fed pollen in CA display the symptoms of CCD. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 09:12:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Re: CCD resistant bees for $110/hive & Posted Bond Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Guys, I wonder if a small, cell phone is included with the purchase of these hives? It could be important for the survival of these hives. ;>) Regards Dennis ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 09:14:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: Poll results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >If you count only those on the list, and assume half of them >viewed my two posts we start with a base of about 300. It is hard to really know how many read this list, since many read the web interface and are not counted. Before Aaron decided to stop the annual unsubscribe/resubscribe process, many were repeatedly kicked off the LISTSERV and went to lurking via the web. Moreover, I might mention here that many of that group do try to register and post via the web, but are frustrated by the unituitive, gotcha, aspects of that interface, which works tolerably well after a person gets to know its quirks, but can really put a person off initially when doing anything other than reading and searching. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 09:53:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Poll results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob The 2% figure of CCD in Florida is misleading. I talked to Jamie after your first post some weeks back, asking how he came up with that number. After some discussion about how survey results are computed, Jamie decided to remove that number from his review of CCD. Jerry ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 10:00:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: He lost half his 13,000 hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm still under the assumption that the 25% losses quoted by Jerry Hayes and the Apiary Inspectors of America includes winter losses as their statements say between fall of 06 and spring 07. divide that number in half ( say 12%) to account for winter losses and we have 300,000 hives lost from CCD. as has been mentioned here on Bee -L lately losses to tracheal in the 80's was 1 million, the 04/05 varrora collapes must have been higher too with the tight package and queen market that resulted. does CCD even rank in the top 5 major bee losses in the USA? it sure ranks as the most visisble loss thats for sure. I'll remember 2006 as the year of the drought and early 2007 as the big winter kill when the north eastern states dropped from 60F+ to minus 20F in a couple of weeks. These two acts of Mother Nature probably accounted for more losses then CCD. Whatever, the attention by Congress, public and Big Ag is well deserved given the downward trends of the bee industry and we can hope to see some policy changes ahead that reflect a concern for pollinators. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 10:09:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Poll results In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Somebody wrote, > It is hard to really know how many read this list, since many read the web > interface and are not counted. > I took less than half of the registered members so the actual number who saw it was probably about right based on your observations. Plus, 5% seems to be the normal response to something like this. > Moreover, I might mention here that many of that group do try to register > and post via the web, > Which is why I provided my email address for direct contact. Bypass the middle man. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 10:40:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ MESSAGE - ASIAN BEES IN AUSTRALIA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Kim Flottum [mailto:Kim@BeeCulture.com] Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 10:36 AM Subject: CATCH THE BUZZ MESSAGE - ASIAN BEES IN AUSTRALIA This ezine is also available online at http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2007.05.07.10.36.archive.html CATCH THE BUZZ Will Asian Bees in Australia threaten honey bee exports to the U.S.? APIS CERANA FOUND IN AUSTRALIA There's growing concern in Australia after the Queensland Department of Primary Industries finds a hive of Asian honey bees in the mast of a yacht that had been docked in Cairns in the far north of the state for two years. The Asian honeybee, Apis cerana, carries two breeds of the Varroa mite that have the potential to devastate Australia's honey industry. Australia is the last major honey-producing country still free of Varroa but the Asian bee is common in areas to Australia's north such as Papua New Guinea and Southeast Asia. The department believes the Asian bees came to Australia on a freight ship and colonized the yacht. Spokesman Ron Glanville tells the Australian Broadcasting Corp. the hive has been destroyed and officers are looking for others. "The biggest problem with Asian honeybees is they can carry exotic mites that can infect our normal honeybees and can be quite devastating depending on the strain or the species of mite," he says. "They can actually be quite devastating in terms of killing off our normal honey bees. "The procedure is to kill the nest at night when all the bees come back to the hive. The big question is whether there are any other bees in the vicinity And that'll be a longer term program for us and we'll be setting up pheromone traps in the vicinity to see if we can detect any other bee hives." Beekeeper Maurie Damon tells ABC Radio he is worried the pest may have invaded other areas. "A few months ago, a friend brought in some undersized bees from the Gordonvale area and I thought they look like cerana but they couldn't be cerana because I hadn't had any indication of cerana in the neighborhood," he says. "I'm going to have to go back now and talk to this beekeeper and get some more bees and have it checked out thoroughly, because it is a bit of a worry. "If it has been here so long that it has spread as far south as Gordonvale, we've got problems." Gordonvale is 15 miles south of Cairns and is the town where the cane toad - now one of Australia's worst pests - was deliberately introduced in 1935. Queensland has some 80,000 commercial hives that produce 165 pounds of honey a hive in an average year. The 6,000 tonnes of honey produced in the state each year is valued at A$24 million (US$19.8 million). Beeswax production is estimated at 100 tonnes a year valued at A$450,000 (US$371,500). Exports of 20,000 queen bees at A$15 (US$12.38) each represent A$300,000 (US$247,700) to the industry annually. Department biosecurity officer Hamish Lamb says in a briefing paper that the Asian bee is the natural host to external mites, Varroa spp. including V. destructor and V. jacobsoni. Both species of mites are very similar in appearance and may be distinguished only by microscopic examination. The Asian bees look very similar to A.mellifer but are smaller and have more predominant abdominal striping. They naturally co-exist with Varroa mites and have mechanisms to cope with them however honeybees do not and, once infested with V. destructor, the demise of the colony is rapid. This report comes from Bee Cultures's Alan Harman. Catch The Buzz Sponsored by Brushy Mountain Bee Farm www.brushymountainbeefarm.com Pass this message on to a friend, our use it in your Newsletter. This information is not Copyrighted. CATCH THE BUZZ is a feature of www.BeeCulture.com You received this email because you subscribed to Catch The Buzz Unsubscribe Change settings Report abuse ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 07:44:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: He lost half his 13,000 hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Colonies not fed pollen in CA display the symptoms of CCD. Not true, Waldemar. They are just weak and don't build up early enough for almonds. No Calif beekeeper is confusing this with CCD. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 07:45:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris: Here you are so right with what you stated. Even working by halfs would be better then 2 frames and like Allen said we will have to watch him close to see he does it okay. Have fingers crossed the short-term memory of the bees with LC each side won't hurt the process he is doing, but somehow 2 frames used is awful lean for doing something that really takes more to do it right. This is why I offered for Bob to come here for hands on and deep talk. But we shall see as things progress for the actual doings. Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 09:07:37 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: He lost half his 13,000 hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> Colonies not fed pollen in CA display the symptoms of CCD. > Not true, Waldemar. They are just weak and don't build up early enough > for almonds. No Calif beekeeper is confusing this with CCD. Lack of feed in the hive for any period of time, and the subsequent partial starvation will often lead to unexplained losses some time later, often months, and especially in late fall, if the deprivation happened in late summer -- even if the bees are fall fed. I've seen it. I've wondered how much of *apparent* CCD is the result of extracting too close or drought, or both, and partial starvation, since the effects are often delayed until late fall/early winter, but I hate to speculate while the CCD team is out in the trenches. There are some symptoms reported in bona fide CCD cases that would not occur with the scenario above. There has been too much second-guessing and speculation IMO. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 10:49:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ MESSAGE - ASIAN BEES IN AUSTRALIA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, This is indeed earth shaking news for U.S. beekeepers! The finding of varroa would not change things for U.S. beekeepers as we have got those and are surprised Australia is still varroa free. A finding of Tropilaelaps clareae in Australia ( has not happened yet and only doing a "what if" ) would in are probability close the U.S. border to Australian queens & packages. Our industry has come to depend on those packages & QUEENS. My beekeeping partner called around 10-15 queen producers Friday and finally found a small order of queens available in Alabama. The same thing happened last year and the only place we could find queens was out of Australia. We took a 500 queen order and they were gone within hours. The entrance into the U.S. of cerana would not upset * knowledgeable* beekeepers (myself) as a cerana import has been discussed before and by me on this list. However the subject has not came up in years (until now?). Cerana does not have problems with the varroa mite. The reason is that varroa for the most part (rare times have been reported by Anderson but only in a few worker cells) does not reproduce in cerana worker brood. In China I would guess a million cerana colonies are used for honey production. Also in some areas cerana strains are about the same size as mellifera. With selective breeding very productive cerana have been created in China (source the last China beekeepers tour). cerana and mellifera will not mate and cross . Cerana WILL NOT cross with AHB. Cerana can be kept in areas of AHB without fear of problems. Cerana needs no treatement for varroa as varroa numbers drop rapidly when the colony goes into a period of raising no drones. I have been shouted down every time I have pointed out the possible benefits from a cerana import. First I think brought up by me over twenty years ago. Friends say the beekeeping industry drives a model T and has trouble when they climb into corvette power. I have got a LS6 corvette engine in a restored 25 year old beekeeping flatbed. The truck came from a beekeeper in California (he bought new) and has no rust. I pulled his small engine (tired from years of faithful beekeeping service) and I installed the high compression piston ,not stock engine with 470 cu.in. , I bought from an auto repair shop. Bob going through a second child hood? I did all the work (including the interior) but the paint ( i prepared the truck for paint). Maaco did the paint. I use the truck in tough places so did not figure I needed a better paint job but Maaco did a nice job and the paint will soon be two years old. Paint has a few scratches from tall weeds. I talk to Australia by phone at least once a month so will try to keep updated on what kim posted and report. Maybe Trevor will keep us updated also. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 17:26:11 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> Colonies not fed pollen in CA display the symptoms of CCD. Not true, Waldemar. They are just weak and don't build up early enough for almonds. No Calif beekeeper is confusing this with CCD. Randy, Did you read the article? The beekeeper runs several hundred hives in California for almond pollination. He said bees that were not fed pollen supplements in the fall dwindled by January - old bees would use up their body protein reserves and disappear from the hives [perhaps on a death flight or looking for pollen?]. Perhaps some areas of California get more pollen that others? >From what I read, CCD manifests itself in worker force disappearance so the symptoms match. I did not mean to imply that all of CCD is caused by pollen deprivation. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 13:37:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ MESSAGE - ASIAN BEES IN AUSTRALIA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob wrote: >In China I would guess a million cerana colonies are used for honey production. China has 2 million colonies of A. cerana, some of that number still in traditional tree hives or in wooden boxes with fixed frames. The honey yield is usually smaller (10-20 kg per colony) due to its smaller colony size. Workers perform the "cleaning dance" more often and groom each other more rigorously, perhaps a reason why Varroa does not cause much damage in this bee, which is the original host of the parasite. http://znu.royal.4t.com/index.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 17:36:00 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ MESSAGE - ASIAN BEES IN AUSTRALIA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>The entrance into the U.S. of cerana would not upset *knowledgeable* beekeepers (myself) as a cerana import has been discussed before and by me on this list. I saw some nice photos of cerana in the last ABJ. They also showed that the Indians keep them in rather small hives (looked like our nucs in triples). Does cerana produce a large surplus of honey and do they overwinter in cold climates well? The Indians also keep Italian bees. Made me wonder if the Italian bees produce a larger surplus there. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 13:38:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD resistant bees for $110/hive & Posted Bond Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We do large Farmers markets and bring along observation hives. We have a sign on the table declaring it a cell phone free zone. Some folks freak out and pull out there phones and scramble to turn them off. We try not to laugh. This past weekend I heard a new story I have not heard before from a farmers mkt customer. The bees are disappearing because of ozone depletion and the increased UV light is destroying the eye sight of honey bees. Spend a day with an observation hive at a farmers market and you find out how much of the BS has been taken as real information by the public. There's a small segment that believes honeybees are now almost extinct and think we're selling off the last of our honey before closing shop. They are then almost disappointed or shocked to hear our bees are ok. On the other hand the interest in honeybees is at an all time high. We get folks stopping by that would not normally give a honey seller a second look. There is also the expectation of paying higher prices. The 2 mysteries of CCD then could be, what is the cause of the disorder, and how did a nationwide loss that is perhaps not even in the top 5 of all time hive numbers lost in US history become such a major story? possible answers: internet where everyone is a now a reporter and an expert, global warming as a backdrop which feeds the concept the world is coming to an end and/or CCD coincided with a larger then normal winter losses in NE USA, all of above? anbody have some other theories? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 11:01:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ MESSAGE - ASIAN BEES IN AUSTRALIA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If Tropilaelaps is indeed found in Australian bees, the implications for Calif almond pollination would be enormous. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 14:13:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ MESSAGE - ASIAN BEES IN AUSTRALIA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This months May 2007 Bee Culture issue in Steve Sheppard's columm page 21 makes a compelling argument that Australian imports have never had any Tracheal exposure and having them installed in almonds near the major Cailfornia queen breeding areas could create a new round of tracheal susceptibility in the USA if their drones mate with CA queens being shipped later aroudn the country. My way of thinking is close the border, the almond people should have had a plan for pollination rather then a hope and a prayer. Its this kind of Big Ag thinking that screws up American agriculture. We make desicions that benefit a few and hurt others in unrelated areas of agriculture. Stationary beekeepers like myself in the Midwest and other regions already get the junk thats hauled back from CA and now maybe other issues with Aussie bees. I feel for our CA keepers too who are affected in a different way. This is a Factory Farm kind of issue IMO. Huge mono-crops of almonds should be seen as a menace to American agriculture not some glory filled success story. We may see some big profits in CA almond growers for a few years until the markets glutted with over supply or China imports of almonds increase. Then the bottom could fall out and we're all left cleaning up the gold rush mess. What then is accomplished? we import Assuie bees for what...a short term gain? We need some long term thinkers to put a plan in place for US honeybees that is not overly influenced by Big Ag needs and stick with it and I am talking the use of systemics like Imdacloprid too. At least those with pollination or insecticide needs could be forewarned of the risks. Healthy Honey Bees should come first!!!! not as an after thought! We live in a time period of history where just because something is technically possible does not mean its implemantion is in the best long term interest of American or global interests. I thnk the EU and Canada is ahead of the curve in that regard to policy making. Money still talks here in the USA. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 13:04:36 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ MESSAGE - ASIAN BEES IN AUSTRALIA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...a compelling argument that Australian imports have never had any > Tracheal exposure... could create a new round of tracheal susceptibility > in the USA if their drones mate with CA queens being shipped later aroudn > the > country. Having had a variety of queens and packages from Ausrtalia, my experience has been that they seem as good or better than the US stock we have had over the years in regard to resistance to tracheal mites. I found this surprising, since I figured they might be more susceptible to diseases and pests they have not been challenged by in their home environment. I think they may not be as good as Kona queens for AFB, but not nearly as bad as some of the old US stocks. All things considered, I would rate them up there with the best. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 09:14:44 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Molokai Meli, LLC" Subject: Re: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ MESSAGE - ASIAN BEES IN AUSTRALIA In-Reply-To: <000d01c790bf$5b68da20$20bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On May 7, 2007, at 5:49 AM, Bob Harrison wrote: > Our industry has come to depend on those packages & QUEENS. My > beekeeping > partner called around 10-15 queen producers Friday and finally found a > small > order of queens available in Alabama. The same thing happened last > year and > the only place we could find queens was out of Australia. We took a > 500 > queen order and they were gone within hours. I'm curious to find out about the Hawaii-raised queens. Do they also run short on supply, or are they a different variety than what you need? Molokai Meli ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 21:47:03 +0200 Reply-To: "gcaboni@tiscali.it" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "gcaboni@tiscali.it" Subject: Re: nosema ceranae in sardinia 2001/2007 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi bob and all the translation with babelfish does not give the exact sense of the phrases. the type of nosema and be identified from the national institute of bee-keeping in italy (http://www.inapicoltura.org/online/) like nosema ceranae. the products use you have been apiherb (http://www.etnamiele. net/Attrezzatura/newImm/AH.pdf) , vita feed (http://www.vita-europe. co. uk/en/news/documents/Issue5.pdf pg 2) fumidil , protofil http: //www. apimondia.org/apiacta/articles/2004/chioveanu_1.pdf ) and thymol. (http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/01-046.pdf , http://www.rirdc. gov. au/reports/HBE/05-055.pdf the stream beds use you for the experimentation have been select to you for spore number at a distance begin them and final and of 30 days (with values that varied from the 4.000.000 to the 50.000.000) experimentations have interested various apiaries and various bee-keepers of various regions, turn out to you are agree to the Spanish experiences on the effectiveness of the fumagillina. I dont dictate that the fumidil he does not work, but that its effectiveness varied from 80% in the best one of the cases to 60 % and in all the cases was not resolutive even if sure he was greater of the other products moreover precise that the effectiveness of the products was obvious only when also in the stream beds test one was had natural reduction of the spore, moreover in case of presence of amebiasi (melpighamoeba mellificae )cysts no product was effective and the stream bed was become depopulated quickly . I would not want to open controversies, but task that this type of search is easy reproducible also in other states and could be useful in order to understand ulteriorly this pathology and the real effectiveness of the thymol, as far as uses it of the thymol has inasmuch as with those concentrations it is not toxic to the bees and above all coast 30 euro to kg and the bees seems that currently they are well Giuseppe caboni gcaboni@tiscali.it Naviga e telefona senza limiti con Tiscali Scopri le promozioni Tiscali adsl: navighi e telefoni senza canone Telecom http://abbonati.tiscali.it/adsl/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 15:48:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ MESSAGE - ASIAN BEES IN AUSTRALIA In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > This months May 2007 Bee Culture issue in Steve Sheppard's columm page 21 makes a compelling > argument that Australian imports have never had any Tracheal exposure and having them installed > in almonds near the major Cailfornia queen breeding areas could create a new round of tracheal > susceptibility in the USA if their drones mate with CA queens being shipped later aroudn the > country. > That is one of the reasons given for the upsurge in Tracheal in Maine over the past few years. Our "native" bee has gone through the rigors of Tracheal and Varroa but we bring in a bee that has seen neither. That scenario invites a crash. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 22:01:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: standards for organic success In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message , Chris Slade writes > >Maybe Murray could do it as I think he is about 30 miles from the nearest >public road. Hi Chris/Gavin and anyone else not driven to somnambulance by this already........... I was not going to enter this due to the amount of ill informed 'holier than thou so your honey must be bad' type stuff swilling about............I have better things to do. However, Chris brought my name up, so............as Gavin may be alluding to I had extensive discussions with the Soil Associations bee expert on this very subject and we were going to do something of a re-write on the rules to make the standards expected of honey of similar standard to that for fruit and veg crops. I also did a sizeable trial. It IS possible to do organic honey in the UK. I am lucky in that respect as both Balmoral and Lochan estates, our two main upland areas, are fully certified organic, and in both cases it is quite possible to site the bees far enough from any major roads, dumps, or conventional land use. (Note, even hill grazing that gets a light spreading of nitrogen is NOT organic and will prevent these colonies being organic that season). On lowland ground I am also the main beekeeping tenant of two of the three main estates in the Sidlaw Organics group, and one of these is 12500 acres of mixed use land. There the bees can be kept in preparation for the key upland crops then migrated. They must NOT EVER be used for honey harvest from conventionally grown crops, but they CAN be sited in non organic places OUT OF SEASON before they gather spring forage. This is very important as bee survivability in the upland areas is very poor........due to wetness it is like sticking them in a frozen swamp, with high winds, and expecting them to prosper. They just dont. The trials revealed that annual production if only those areas, and only organic treatments, are used is roughly halved. Work levels are higher (even the lack of wing clipping cuts the number operated as you have to be round them more promptly), and if they have to feed on only their own honey in many years there will be no harvest at all. Bee health is noteably lesser. Heather honey is bad winter food.if forced to winter on this stuff (its high in protein and the bees need to fly a lot to vent the faeces, which can be lumpy on this honey), and this makes for high dysentry levels in cold winters (not the last three though, which have been very kind) The main client is Duchy Originals, who are the driving force behind the project and who will probably get their way eventually, and a separate unit will be set up to meet their needs. We studied the costs, yields, and practicalities of doing this and came up with a price for the honey that left us margin neutral on a per colony basis. (Earning the same income) This meant a PREMUIM of 110% was required for the product, and heather honey is already expensive, so they went away and canvassed opinion from the key onward clients 9high end retailers) and came back with a 'yes it will sell.....................but the volumes predicted are...........response. Now these figures are Duchy ones and must remain confidential.......but we had calculated our costs on doing an initial 300 colony unit and the market estimate came back much lower.......actually below the point of viability due mainly to certification and admin costs. At this time they are trying to establish a better size of market in order to reach the critical level I have stipulated for the project to proceed.........but everything is in place for a fast start if the green light comes. We have everything we need either in hand or sourced. Yes, even the organic bee stock. Finally Chris....I wish I was 30 miles from a public road...........sadly not.......I am in a small town and two main A class roads cross not 200 yards from where I am sitting. But thats just home base.......the bees are over a very wide area and none are within a couple of miles of home base. -- Murray McGregor ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 16:05:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Poll results In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > The 2% figure of CCD in Florida is misleading. What is the number for all beekeepers? My guess is the 2% figure is correct for all beekeepers. The problem is the number of colonies is also misleading. We know that some large operations have had large losses so what percent of large operations have reported confirmed CCD? It would be interesting to know if any "before" snapshots have been or will be taken of operations before they venture out this year from Florida. But then, we had AHB in Maine blueberries years before it was acknowledged as being present in Fla., so not sure how accurate that snapshot will be. The AHB probably snuck on the trucks as they passed through Massachusetts. Maybe that is where they also pick up Varroa and Tracheal mites. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 15:49:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ MESSAGE - ASIAN BEES IN AUSTRALIA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Molokai & All, >I'm curious to find out about the Hawaii-raised queens. Do they also run short on supply, We book a certain amount each week starting around the third week of March. We are pleased with the Kona queens we get. They said Friday they were booked into July. Because we order queens each year they will ship to us if they can. We have no way of knowing last fall the exact number of queens we will need. Another large California queen producer we buy from is trying to get us some queens but he is booked to July also. Friday was a bad luck kind of day. We even tried for a Minnesota hygienic /VSH breeder queen from Glenn apiaries and they said they had problems so last of June would be the first shipping date. My beekeeping partner was on the phone for a couple hours and finally got 25 queens coming out of Alabama. He was asking for 200 I think. The same thing happened last year but a week earlier I think Once we went through the queen producers list in the U.S. we contacted Australia and we had 500 queens in a few days. All arrived alive. I really do not know why the queen shortage at this time the last two years. Queen producers try to produce about double the queens they book. Last year and this year is the first time we have not been able to go down the list of queen producers and find a producers with queens on hand very happy we called Usually we have got queens after four or five phone calls. Most years the queen producers call us trying to move extra queens. CCD? Poor queen mating? increased demand? Don't know but sounds like maybe increased demand. The only explanation I heard was from Glenn apiaires and they said they had some problems. They said they could ship a cordovan/ VSH. We passed . Pretty is not really what we were looking for in a breeder queen. We are caging some of our own breeder queens to raise some queens of our own but we really need some queens this week for some splits which were made from a Kansas commercial beekeepers hives. If the list knows of available queens please email me. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 20:03:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Dr. James Tew on Ohio Losses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I guess we can take Ohio off the CCD map afterall. http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/07/05/07/honey.bees.html “I very nearly don’t know what to say about this issue,” Tew said in the newsletter. “The publicity on this subject has exceeded any science supporting a causative agent. Giving it a new name and saying that it is worse than previous outbreaks have given the condition an emergency status that has elicited what I have called ‘electronic hysteria.’” “I’m not saying it isn’t serious,” Tew said Tuesday. “It’s like the flu. If you have it, it’s serious, and if you don’t have it, you don’t want it.” But Tew said Ohio’s bee problems do not appear to be CCD. “It’s kind of insulting, actually,” said Tew. “I think I’d notice that if it were happening in Ohio.” ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 19:15:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ken_Burrell?= Subject: Question about bee growth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings All, I am extremely new to the bee world and am trying to build a business plan for my bee venture. I have access to all the farm/agricultural land I need to grow. My question stems from basically "how fast and how many". I am starting with 10 hives, and would like your input as to how long it would take to grow those 10 hives to 300, by splitting hives, raising my own queens, and occasionally purchasing queens. I do fully realize all the unknown factors that can and probably will be involved. WITHOUT factoring in pesticide loss, disease, parasites, CCD, cost of equipment, etc., my question is basically under perfect conditions and having all the equipment needed, biologically how long could a person expect to take to grow their operation from 10 hives to 300 hives using colony splits and raising my own queens. I am located in Kansas, so weather is pretty fair. Thank you ahead of time for any responses/estimates you can provide. Ken ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 20:38:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Dr. James Tew on Ohio Losses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Interesting article, I guess. Did you read this part? This is the first time I have ever heard this particular scenario, and I think I have read almost all the articles in the past 4 months: "I’ve not had any of my customers report seeing the bees gathering around the entrance of the hive and then flying straight away in a group, as happens in colony collapse disorder," said Simpson. -- none of my customers reported that, either ;) pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 21:56:23 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: imidacloprid and corn Comments: cc: Anne Sherrod MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The followin quote is from a Canadian PMRA (pesticide management regulatory agency) information officer: >MRL (maximum residue limits) pertain to the human health risk = assessment >and are not determined by, nor impact on, the environmental risk >assessment. MRLs are established under the Food and Drug Regulations = (FDR) >of the Food and Drugs Act (FDA) only if Health Canada's PMRA has = determined >that the consumption of the pesticide residues that could remain on the >food as it is eaten will not pose an unacceptable human health risk. >Following review of the minor use proposals for the use expansion of >imidacloprid to corn (field and sweet) and eggplant, MRLs of 0.08 ppm = for >eggplant and 0.05 ppm for corn (field and sweet) were recommended. >Accordingly, Table II of the Food and Drug Regulations was amended to >include these MRLs (1367-imidacloprid). No other changes were made to = the >table. So, it is allowable to have 50 ppb imidacloprid residue in corn. This = is=20 above the LD50 (lethal dose to 50% of the test subjects) for bees . I = wonder whether or not imidacloprid is destroyed in the making of corn syrup? =20 Stan ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 22:04:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Howard_Kogan?= Subject: Any thoughts on what I found? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I live in the Taconic Hill Country on the NY/MA line. I finally was able to check my three hives this weekend and found two very strong and ready for a super but one had about 2 cups of dead bees on the bottom board and brood about the size of a softball on only 3 frames. Plus very little open brood, no eggs and no queen that I could find-but I am not very good at finding queens and it was windy and chilly so I did not look that long. All three hives had plenty of honey. In the past I would have assumed I have a poor queen and/or varroa mites/tracheal mites. Do you folks think that this is correct? Does requeening still seem like the way to go? Any thoughts from more experienced hands would be appreciated. Howard Kogan/ Falling Tree Farm ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************