From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:59:34 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AD2749097 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFhrq6016524 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:17 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0705B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 281644 Lines: 6700 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 20:19:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Any thoughts on what I found? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Requeening is always an option, but if your mite control is lacking or insufficient, just requeening won't pull the hive out of this downward spiral. Further, some hive populations get so low that there are not enough workers to care for new brood and forage, and thus they never really catch up. Requeening would be fruitless. My thoughts? First, treat for mites. Then pull one, maybe two frames of sealed brood from each of the other two hives to equalize, then perhaps requeen. Just a boost in the population may help the old queen do her job. An alternative? Order a package with a new queen to add to this hive. Of course, this time of year it's hard to find packages available on such short notice. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 23:43:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just read Malcolm Sanfords monthly newsletter for May. This was in it: "Organic Maple Syrup Concerns: See how parallel are the concerns of maple syrup and honey when it comes to the organic designation" . Regards, Dick Allen ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 20:33:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: STR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit sore tummy rub -- STR Yes I know this is a ridiculous name, that's on purpose to be a pin in the ass of my fellow CCD suffers who are either sitting on thier hands or walking about with thier eyes closed Do you have no sick hives? Are they doing nothing unusual or odd? Too shy -- or busy? I'm a northern bk I should be seeing this last Come on people I know of NO disease that have only 1 symptom I'd much rather be a lurker thank you so much, but .... I'm making 2 assumptions CCD is caused by mystery organism X I have X in my beeyard If CCD is infective then it is clear that it is an organism, poison plays a minor or no role There is tacit acknolegment already (don't unite, don't reuse equipement yet) If the Florida experiment confirms then there will be little doubt Symptoms of STR First seen on hoppers A clumsy, uncorridinated attempt to groom abdomen, repeatedly The rear legs seem stiff and wooden More severe: rubbing lower inner surfaces of rear legs together, repeatedly The feet are put down too close together Most severe: the rear legs are dragged, dragging cannot be seen easily on comb, set them on a piece of paper or lid Many bees display this behavior More signifigantly newly emerged also show this Over 90%, its hard to say all If X causes STR symptoms then this throws out nosema (a or c) since newly emerged will not have nosema Formic helps slightly, an OD (accidental) helps more (probably by killing worst infected) If I was to bet: X is a virus X's vectors are Nurse to larvae TM adult to adult Control TM and it fades away in 2-4 wks, depending on other factors Since acetic is hard to find I wonder if SO2 would disenfect X? Would certainly be cheaper dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 07:05:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > He said bees that were not fed pollen supplements in the fall dwindled by January That kind of normal dwindling is entirely different than CCD. We've experienced it forever. Randy ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 09:00:37 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Australian Stock vs. US Stock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> ...Australian imports have never had any Tracheal exposure and having >> them installed in almonds near the major Cailfornia queen breeding areas >> could create a new round of tracheal susceptibility in the USA... Is there any proof backing this up? I have had years of extensive experience with stock from a number of Australian suppliers, and I have not found their stock to be particularly susceptible to tracheal mite. Au contraire. This sort of speculation -- unless there is some real evidence to back it up -- IMO is irresponsible, and -- if spoken in public at all -- should always be accompanied by a disclaimer that it is merely an idea, and there is no proof -- until there is, at least. Most scientists are really careful not to say hypothetical things like this, since people fail to understand that it is merely speculation, and immediately believe that -- since it came from an authority -- it must be true. I'm betting, though that the Aussie stock is not worse than the run of the mill US stock, and it actually, from my experience may be better. Of course there some US suppliers who consistently offer bees that are strongly resistant to TM, and maintain a quality control on that trait, but I doubt that they are more than a small minority. TM resistance is a trait that can fade fast unless actively maintained. If anyone wishes to find the source of tracheal susceptibility in US bees, one need look no further than this chart: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/tracheal.htm which examines tracheal susceptibility in US commercial breeder colonies. That data is a few years old now, but there is no reason to believe that things have changed. Maybe it is time to ask Baton Rouge to do the study again. If they did, I would bet nothing has changed, and I'd even bet things have gotten worse in some quarters, since the spotlight has been off tracheal mites for a while. Although I'm not suggesting that CCD *is* due to TM, there are enough similarities that TM could account for some of the reports of disappearances -- ones that mimic CCD in some symptoms, but are not actually CCD. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 08:09:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ MESSAGE - ASIAN BEES IN AUSTRALIA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >If the list knows of available queens please email me. There is a very small new queen producer in N. Calif with extra on hand. I'll send his phone to those interested. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 10:43:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Missouri flooding & beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Strange to turn on world news as see pictures of your area. Fair to say the drought has ended for my area. Torrential rains has always followed a drought for as long as I have lived in this area. Comparisons to the 100 year flood of 1993 are not correct. We have had 7 in. if rain since the start and then the rain stopped yesterday and things are drying out. In 1993 we had 7in. of rain two days in a row (14 total) and the rain kept coming. Missouri Beekeeping: Most yards are too wet to get into. Will probably be the first of next week before the ground dries enough. I am lucky all my bees are out of the holding yard and on to locations. I sit here working in my building putting wax in frames listening to the radio. Very unusual for this time of year for me. I feel blessed I am not in the situation of a close friend beekeeper which has been splitting bees from California and coming out of the apple orchards in rain. I mean rain you need to wear a raincoat. The temps were in the 80's so the rain bothered the beekeepers more than the bees. The rains are really causing the white Dutch to grow. I expect an early White Dutch bloom. Yellow & White sweet clover produces the second year and was knocked back last summer from drought. I worry we will not get a big white & yellow sweet bloom ( main honey plant). If this crop fails (like last year) I am moving bees to better forage. Possibly the Nebraska/South Dakota area. Also we get many plants growing and blooming after this type of rain we only see in this kind of year. Heartsease (smart weed) is one and will darken any grade of honey its mixed with and also add a undesirable odor. In "93" I saw drums of dark off flavor honey harvested. After two years of drought there has not been enough smartweed in the river bottoms to warrant a fall move into the bottoms. Mother nature will change the scenario this fall. The area I place bees in late fall for winter stores will look like a big pink waving carpet producing heartsease. Over a 1000 acres of smartweed! Excellent winter feed for bees and they really brood up! The U.S. Farm report weather predicts our weather pattern to change to dry to normal. If so we will get a better honey production year than we have in the last two years which is my prediction if the change to a dry pattern happens. Their report has never been far off before so I choose to depend on their weather over local programs. Farmers make business decisions off the U.S. Farm report. However getting up at four AM to catch the report limits its weather information to mainly farmers. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 15:38:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Oak over fruit trees and dandelions? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I run a good sized apple orchard which is in full bloom today, dandelions are at their peak of flowering too, temps in upper 70's. Yet our large oak trees are humming today, covered with our honey bees. The trees are too tall to see if they are getting nectar or pollen. I've noticed before that dandelions and other plants don't give much nectar until later in their bloom cycle. Anyhow thought this was interesting. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 16:53:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Small spring clusters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Howard Kogan describes a hive with a very small cluster and asks what is going on. I find several of these every year (out of approximately 200 hives). I always place the blame on trachael mites. Starvation is out of the question as there are plenty of stores, including those near the cluster. If the hive were dead I'd blame Varroa, but it is not dead. The hive was strong in the fall (lot's of stores), dwindled rapidly, and is not building up. I think trachael mites are at work here. During the summer and fall the queen could out produce the mites. Not so, from late fall through the winter. She is probably infected, so can't gear up her laying to match the incoming pollen. As Grant suggested, I give them a frame of emerging brood plus shaking 2-3 frames of nurse bees, kill the old queen, and add a new queen. AFAIK that has always 'solved the problem'. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:07:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Oak over fruit trees and dandelions? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I once read that the oak supports more insect species than any other tree. Not sure if this was just UK. Anyone have any accurate information? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 18:28:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: symptoms I'll try again. Hopefully it was a misunderstanding I am (bitterly) complaining ONLY to my fellow CCD sufferers NOTE WELL if you don't have ccd the following does not apply I'm a northern bk, I've only been looking hard for 3 weeks and found 4 major symptoms. Why am I the first?? Maybe I'm nuts or deluded but I think not Please, prove me wrong Syptoms in header only (if this post gets thru I'll fill them out) 1)hoppers 2)STR + family (of symptoms) above is acute, below chronic 3)emergent mortality 4)brood balence I know of no disease with only 1 symptom Its bee suggested that its KBV (thanks Bill) No, the adults all look normal And as I said before Since acetic is hard to find I wonder if SO2 would disenfect? Would certainly be cheaper dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 20:46:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Subject: 3-frame obersation hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone who is looking for a 3-frame obersation hive can contact = petewanda1@earthlink.net . They are master carpenters. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:57:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: symptoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave, What is your location? I might have a friend which could take a look. You can send to me direct if you like or give a general area first. Others on the list close to you might take a look. First question: Is what you are seeing the same as you saw last fall but earlier? second question: Is the comb the bees are on the same as the CCD bees were on? Third question: Are these the survivors from last year CCD and have never seemed to thrive? Also: You are not the first to report a repeat of last year. also: Many on the list will not like what I am about to say but I think Jerry B. will agree. Some CCD problems have been linked to OA use. Possibly even formic. Both OA & formic could be causing the M. tubules problems I have been told. The industry has shifted to those products. I am NOT saying those products are the source on the M. tubules problems but only sharing what I have been told. Something is damaging the malpighian tubules ( bees kidneys). Damaged M. tubules was found in most CCD bee samples. Suspect are OA treatments during the brood season . OA has been around a long time around the world and is a legal treatment in Canada. I myself have trouble thinking OA could be causing problems but researchers have expressed concern. Marion Ellis ( researching OA for several years) has expressed concern at presentations I have attended over treating bees with OA at any time other than the broodless period which is around Thanksgiving in Nebraska. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 22:47:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: The outside frames which for the most >part hold honey most of the year can be large cell according to those >beekeepers. If you can exclude the broodnest from moving into these larger cells, then this may work. BUT, I doubt most beekeepers are vigilant enough to see that this is prevented. >Now Joe that's not what you said last winter when I first told you of the >project. I like the project. But the broodnest MUST be restricted to small cell. It can be difficult to prevent the broodnest from moving into large cell by mixing cell sizes, so I must renege my support of the experiment if it is carried out in such a manner with mixed cell sizes. >Others ( some reading right now) on BEE-L said if my results were not >positive than the small cell beekeepers would reject the entire project. Your statement troubles me. When I mentor new bees, I find that these new bees are faced with a barrage of advice on what they “should be doing with their bees“. Advice ranging from “treat your bees for varroa or they are going to die” TO “requeen every year”. Then, I find that I need to visit the new bee and open up the hives and let them see for themselves. In most cases the evidence shows that the queen performance is fine and they do NOT need treatments OR other such advice given. So the first thing I teach a new bee is always “base your decisions on what your assessments of your colonies conditions reveal, and NOT by what others say you should do”. Why a small cell beekeeper having all the evidence at their disposal, would depend on ‘some guy on the internet’ to tell them what is working for them in their own hives, without basing the decision on the their own colony assessments, is simply NOT conducive to good beekeeping practices. >,,, I am not testing >Dee's method of downsizing but Dennis Murrels. You say above that you are testing ‘downsizing’. This is not a ‘small cell test’ then? Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Derry, PA “Bees Gone Wild Apiaries” FeralBeeProject.com http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:14:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: symptoms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >What is your location? North of Linsay (Ontario) >Is what you are seeing the same as you saw last fall but earlier? Unknown >Is the comb the bees are on the same as the CCD bees were on? No > >Are these the survivors from last year CCD and have never seemed to thrive? No > Some CCD problems have been linked to OA use. Possibly even >formic. I use OA(v),partly because then they don't swallow acid, also don't have to open hive in Nov, breaking proplis seal dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 00:29:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: STR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Some furthur thoughts: If you wish to call STR something like 'wooden legs' (or clumsy grooming) I will not be offended Perhaps I was over optomistic >and it fades away in 2-4 wks, and should say 4-8 wks, depending ... Another symptom (of X ??) is excessive emergent mortality (~5% ??) At age 0, cell uncaped, head out, dead in cell In a strong hive you will not see this, the corpses will be carried away. These corpses seem light. 1.49 grains, .097 gm (10) And, of course, varoa could be a vector for X These nucs (showing strongly) had no OA(v) last year I didn't expect such large loss, wanted to see which nuc handled varoa best. and more thought later I must have caught an infection peak (how can there be a peak in this type of infection?) Anyway now is much less STR and none with young Its not hard to find though, with a short search As the legs regain flexability the bee can groom top of abdomen but it still is a 'tipsy' movement (and now they mostly groom the top, when they do the bottom legs are more flexable & appears more effective) it stops < 10 STR, few ankle rubs, legs are not stiff And more I can kick myself for being unobservant Looking at one of the nucs -- what a lot of eggs(not really, 2/3 frame) but hey where's the larvae? None to be seen Next nuc same, etc, etc in all nucs no/very few larvae (<10) (I actually didn't see any but could have been hiding behind bees) If this persists it would well explain dwindling I'm now rather pessimistic Prevelant (ie in your face) STR lasts about 5-7d, emergent (young bee) STR lasts 2d, I can't imagine why it disapears so quick I think ccd came with NZ queen spr06 no slur on NZ, X is probably widespread Its 80-90% my fault for not controlling TM excuse my sp please dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 05:49:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Queen longivity In-Reply-To: <000501c791d5$10e122c0$1cbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.news.uiuc.edu/news/07/0508queenbee.html Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 06:32:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Susceptible? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you bring bees from somewhere that has never seen Varroa or Tracheal are you better off or worse? Short term, you are probably better off since you start at zero infection. So you see good results right off but in time nature will take its course.You postpone the inevitable if mites are able to move into your area, or have been there all along. But, in time, you will be worse off than if you used local bees or stock that has been confronted with mites. That can be seen in humankind with diseases unknown to one group infecting another on first contact (i.e. smallpox and Native Americans and syphilis and Europeans). It is opposite of all the research into making a tolerant bee, such as Medhat's work with Tracheal, or importation of Russians, Yugo and other bees that might be mite tolerant. It is also opposite all of us who try to raise our own from survivors, trying to get a healthy bee that survives in local conditions. As with Native Americans and Europeans, it works both ways. You may bring in a bee that is tolerant of diseases found in the old area but not in the new area. You think you are bringing in healthy stock, but really have no idea what pathogens may be present since the bee has dealt with them long ago, or has never been stressed by mites for the disease to appear. The bees in the new area are susceptible and may die off in large numbers. So it is not far off the mark to question the advisability of bring in a bee that has never seen Varroa or Tracheal, especially since it seems counter to everything else that is going on in the "stressed" rest of the world. It seems more advisable to use stock from stressed areas, just as most researchers are doing. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 06:40:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anne Brennan Subject: Re: Oak over fruit trees and dandelions? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed At 3:38 PM -0400 5/8/07, Brian Fredericksen wrote: >I run a good sized apple orchard which is in full bloom today, >dandelions are at their peak of >flowering too, temps in upper 70's. Yet our large oak trees are >humming today, covered with our >honey bees. The trees are too tall to see if they are getting nectar >or pollen. My understanding is that oaks, which are wind-pollinated, produce little or no nectar, because it is not in the plants' interest to do so. Nectar production is meant to attract pollinating insects, but oaks don't depend on insects for pollen transfer. By the way, it is this mechanism of pollination by wind that's responsible for the tremendous amount of pollen produced and released by oaks, and which subsequently causes so much misery for certain allergy sufferers at this time of year. I have actually never observed bees collecting pollen directly from oak flowers, but I'm glad to hear they do. Anne -- -------------------------------- Anne Brennan anne.brennan@verizon.net ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 05:52:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Presentation on Use of Honey in Modern Wound Care MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Presentation on Use of Honey in Modern Wound Care ‘New’ Remedy – New Evidence Presented at the Symposium on Advanced Wound Care (SAWC) in Tampa, Florida (USA) By Keith F Cutting, Principal lecturer, Buckinghamshire Chilterns University College International Board Member AAWC SEE: http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/05/presentation-on-use-of-honey-in-modern.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 07:02:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe: You say above that you are testing ‘downsizing’. This is not a ‘small cell test’ then? Reply: Joe, technically NO it is not testing downsizing here. Bob is merely putting two frames of Small Cell into the center of a few hives to see if the bees will work them. From there due to the bees short term memory on each side being Large Cell, Bob will have lots of fun. Dee- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 07:27:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Oak over fruit trees and dandelions? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >The oak trees are too tall to see if they are getting nectar > >or pollen. Oaks are major pollen source in my area--tasty pollen, easy to sell when trapped. Bees work honeydew from aphids on young oak leaves in my area. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 11:11:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: CCD in the Honey Market Report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > In New England, beekeepers that have experienced heavy losses attributed to unseasonably warm weather causing starve outs and not colony collapse disorder (CCD). This new killer has been associated with perhaps over stressed bees for commercial pollinators and a possible link to a midacloprid [sic] chemical that poisons honey bees. Additionally, genetically modified insect resistant plants could be playing a role with a possible connection between genetic engineering and diseases in bees. This phenomena is being coined as a potential "AIDS for the bee industry". The characteristics of this sudden loss of colonies vary and what applies in one case may be different elsewhere. Generally speaking there is almost a complete lack of adult bees yet evidence of recent brood rearing. In some cases the queen and a small number of survivor bees may be present in the brood. Honey is usually present with an unusual delay in hive robbing and slower than normal invasion by common pests s! uch as wax moth and hive beetles. This suggests there is something toxic in the colony itself, (a pheromone) repelling them. There is evidence of almost all known bee viruses in the few surviving bees found in the hives after most have disappeared; a sign that the bee's immune system may have collapsed. The jury is still out on this serious epidemic pathological condition. [This certainly is an interesting synopsis, being distributed in the USDA Honey Market Report for April 2007] -- Peter L. Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 11:20:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Oak over fruit trees and dandelions? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Anne wrote: >My understanding is that oaks, which are wind-pollinated, produce >little or no nectar, because it is not in the plants' interest to do >so. Nectar production is meant to attract pollinating insects, but >oaks don't depend on insects for pollen transfer. "The oaks are frequently reported a sources of nectar. The fact is that it is usually honeydew, rather than nectar, which the bees gather. Pollen is produced in abundance by these trees and all species may be regarded as valuable for pollen." -- from "American Honey Plants" by Frank C. Pellett * Bees will collect high quality pollen wherever they can find it, regardless whether the plant produces nectar or is normally an insect pollinated plant. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 10:50:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Oak over fruit trees and dandelions? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Anne & All >My understanding is that oaks, which are wind-pollinated, produce little or no nectar, because it is not in the plants' interest to do so. Reports very on the value of Oaks to the trees. Most books say honeydew is most often gathered. However I don't think so as Brian describes mainly because usually takes a better source than dandelions to draw bees away from dandelions. In Florida I have seen what Brian describes when Live Oaks bloom. I love the Florida Live Oak tree. Grew up climbing on those. Wonderful shade tree. While in Texas this year I went and took pictures of the largest Live oak tree I ever saw. 40 feet in circumference! The tree is in a small park north of Galveston Island. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 12:05:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Joe & All, > so I must renege my support of the experiment if it is carried out in such a manner with mixed cell sizes. I had hoped Dennis Murriel would have commented on our earlier discussions but Dennis did not. Dennis has been a small cell advocate from the start. Dennis believes all the small cell needed to see what you and others report is 4 frames in the brood nest. He uses no treatments. He dose report the things you say you see. Although because he goes about small cell differently he is the "black sheep" of small cell. To use a page from your beekeeping on feral comb. Have you ever seen small cell size throughout the colony? I NEVER have. To me forcing small cell throughout the hive (honey storage) is unnatural. >New bees are faced with a barrage of advice on what they “should be doing with their bees“. Advice ranging from “treat your bees for varroa or they are going to die” TO “requeen every year”. Treat without testing I do not recommend. I have always practiced IPM and recommended IPM. However most commercial beekeepers realize IF they do not treat at least once a year then hives today hives start crashing with varroa. Most base treat decisions on the amount of varroa found in drone brood. Requeen each year has value to commercial beekeepers but certainly does not apply to the hobby and sideline sector. 90% of my hives have got young prolific queens settled in and laying. If I had had the time the other 10% would have been requeened. I am only talking about production colonies. I feel young queens pay dividends instead of cost. Even two year queens like to hit the trees. > In most cases the evidence shows that the queen performance is fine Also shows today queen supercedure is higher than anytime in our beekeeping history. I am running a test with 75 marked queens to see exactly how bad early supercedure is. So far only two I have found with supercedure cells and queen laying. In one case the queen had a good pattern but lacked the brood of the other queens . In both cases I left the large nicely formed supercedure cells. Mistake? Does the beekeeper know better than the bees? >and they do NOT need treatments OR other such advice given. Many would argue about telling new bees that small cell is the answer to all their problems. To simple for one reason. A well rounded knowledge of beekeeping is needed today. Even on various lists I have seen small cell advocates recommend a possible varroa treatment until the bees are fully on small cell. New bees depend on their mentor for sound advice. If you look in the various catalogs selling small cell foundation you see a warning is given that small cell should be used with caution by new beekeepers. > So the first thing I teach a new bee is always “base your decisions on what your assessments of your colonies conditions reveal, and NOT by what others say you should do”. I do agree with the above but went you have got a mentor you blindly follow along. >Why a small cell beekeeper having all the evidence at their disposal, would depend on ‘some guy on the internet’ What small cell evidence? Real proof of the benefits of small cell has been lacking. Could you point us to some real evidence other than what we are told by "some guy named Joe on the internet"? >,,, I am not testing >Dee's method of downsizing but Dennis Murrels. You say above that you are testing ‘downsizing’. This is not a ‘small cell test’ then? Once the frames are drawn then I can arrange in any fashion I want. Dee understands what I am doing even if she would prefer simply following her footsteps. The reason Dee wants at least some testing done of the fully drawn small cell. I have seriously considered a trip to Dee's but she is 1300 miles each way. I test small cell mostly for my own information. I have tested many beekeeping hypothesis before and never even spoke of those tests on the internet. Sound science does not support the small cell hypothesis. One of the reasons I am planning on testing. Many colonies were on 30-50 year old black comb when varroa hit and they mostly died. Very small cells size from years of brood rearing. Worker bees raised in drone cells which I have seen for over four decades when the bees run out of worker cells are normal size when they emerge. Bee grow during the first week after emerging. Genetics play a bigger roll than cell size our researchers have always said. Science does not support small cell as the answer for all our beekeeping problems. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 13:08:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: symptoms In-Reply-To: <000501c791d5$10e122c0$1cbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Bob Harrison mentioned: Both OA & formic could be causing the M. tubules problems I have been told. The industry has shifted to those products. I am NOT saying those products are the source on the M. tubules problems but only sharing what I have been told. Something is damaging the malpighian tubules ( bees kidneys). Damaged M. tubules was found in most CCD bee samples. Bob: I will be interested to get a copy of any published information to show oxalic acid and formic acid damaging the Malpighian tubules. Does this information indicate beekeepers who used oxalic acid and formic acid have bees suffered from CCD? I know beekeepers who have high losses in the USA and they say that is "CCD". These beekeepers have never used formic acid or oxalic acid. It would be nice to back some of these statements with some preliminary research results. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 19:48:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Also shows today queen supercedure is higher than anytime in our beekeeping history. This is true of today's managed hives. I was recently reading Walt Wright's articles on using 3 deeps for the brood nest. Swarming is insignificant in such hives but supercedure does occur quite frequently (I assume it's not due to chemical treatments in the wax). It would be interesting to study supercedure trends in large cavity feral colonies. >>In both cases I left the large nicely formed supercedure cells. Mistake? Does the beekeeper know better than the bees? Bob, please report on the outcome with these cells. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 15:54:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] "Organic" is not "Sustainable"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot, Have you tried inverting the top bar and comb before shaking? Chris In a message dated 07/05/2007 13:26:11 GMT Standard Time, scot.mcpherson@GMAIL.COM writes: Yes top bars (a.k.a. frames) can withstand shaking, however it requires care which means do it right the first time. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 16:33:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: CCD in the Honey Market Report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit * I think that it is very interesting that these sentences which appear in the USDA Honey Market Report appear to be "copy quotes" from a news article ! which was translated from the German. Is that where USDA gets their info? >> This phenomena is being coined as a potential "AIDS for the bee industry" << >> There is evidence of almost all known bee viruses in the few surviving bees found in the hives after most have disappeared; a sign that the bee's immune system may have collapsed. << * * * Excerpts from "Are GM Crops Killing Bees?" By Gunther Latsch Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan > Scientists call the mysterious phenomenon "Colony Collapse Disorder" (CCD) … like Dennis vanEngelsdorp, an apiarist with the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture, they are already referring to the problem as a potential "AIDS for the bee industry." < > In many cases, scientists have found evidence of almost all known bee viruses in the few surviving bees found in the hives after most have disappeared. Some had five or six infections at the same time and were infested with fungi -- a sign, experts say, that the insects' immune system may have collapsed. < Der Spiegel Online http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,473166,00.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 15:38:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: symptoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Medhat & All, >Something is damaging the malpighian tubules ( bees kidneys). Damaged M. tubules was found in most CCD bee samples. >I will be interested to get a copy of any published information to show oxalic acid and formic acid damaging the Malpighian tubules. There is not any to my knowledge as the cause to CCD remains a mystery. The kind of testing I am about to suggest should prove one way or the other. Oxalic is more suspect than formic. I am using formic and am not seeing any problems with my bees. Perhaps you could run a test Medhat and take a look at the Malpighian tubules on some bees in Canada before and after oa treatment. two issues: 1. are the tubules changing oa after treatment? 2. if damage is found at what level of damage would the bee be affected? If researchers are even considering OA a problem then I think the above tests need ran. Does this >information indicate beekeepers who used oxalic acid and formic acid have bees suffered from CCD? I am not sure about formic but I can say yes on the OA from the people involved I have spoke with. Maybe Jerry B. will comment? > I know beekeepers who have high losses in the USA and they say that is "CCD". These beekeepers have never used formic acid or oxalic acid. Were their bees checked by the CCD team for damaged malpighian tubules? My sources I have spoke with are many concerned about the bees they have looked at an tested. Its hard to tell about those claiming CCD on the survey as researchers have not looked at most of their bees. We all know many beekeepers are blaming all their losses on CCD this time instead of the many other beekeeping problems which might be the problem. The symptoms are clearly posted yet many clain CCD yet when asked they say they saw none of the symptoms but still had deadouts. Must be CCD! >It would be nice to back some of these statements with some preliminary research results. Most all the CCD research reports I have read speak of the damaged malpighian tubules. Is this the first you have heard of the damage? Those have been posted on BEE-L. The cause of the damage is debatable but the fact that damaged tubules is constantly being found is documented for all to see at several sites. Have you ever looked for damaged malpighian tubules when testing oa or formic? bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 17:24:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Pulling honey- wax moth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A local (UK) beekeeper who has since emigrated to New Zealand showed me his set up. He kept a chest type of deep freeze specifically for beekeeping. After extraction (and I guess a period back on the hives for cleaning) he would put the supers of comb into the freezer for a couple of days or so and then remove them and wrap each one securely in a plastic sack stacked up until needed. It worked for him. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 19:39:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: more CCD math fun! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A131848 MAY 9, 2007 David Tarpy Crisis for honeybees—and our food BY FIONA MORGAN David Tarpy N.C. State University entomology professor David Tarpy has studied honeybees for 14 years. He's seen bees die off due to mites, pesticides and a wide array of problems—but he's never seen anything like today's crisis. Tarpy is part of a national working group of scientists and federal officials investigating the causes of colony collapse disorder, or CCD, an affliction causing more than a quarter of the country's bee population to become disoriented, fail to return to their hives and die. Reporters Querstion: What's the scope of this problem? Dr. Tarpy's response: "The problem appears to be nationwide, in over half of the states. About 20 to 30 percent of the colonies that died this past winter seem to have been afflicted by what appears to be a CCD symptom." Ok so we have the often quoted statistic of 25% of national hives, from Jerry Hayes and Apiary Inspectors of America, which perished from fall of 06-spring 07. from LA Times: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sci- bees26apr26,1,367041.story?coll=la-headlines-nation "About a quarter of the estimated 2.4 million commercial colonies across the United States have been lost since fall", said Jerry Hayes of the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services in Gainesville To me this statistic has always been a big question mark because when its cited we never have any context of where they are coming from. Does it include winter kill? Then we have Dr. Tarpy saying 25% of the dead from winter is due to CCD. Mind you both of these gentlemen are part of the CCD working group. If both are claiming the same actual numbers of hives then there would have to be another 75% presumably winter kill according to Tarpy. So no that does not seem right......we'd have all 2.4 million dead then. Ok how about going with the Hayes numbers as including winter kill too with a total of 600,000 hives empty. Then apply Tarpys 25% and geez we only have 150,000 to CCD. I guess it comes down to no one knows for sure how many....its getting obvious we're just making the numbers up as we go along and ask two different CCD working members and we might hear two very different estimates. Ask a reporter and its thousands of bees, or no wait its wiping out the bees, or maybe its a lot, yeah thats its a lot of bees missing yes and its real bad yes sir all across the world now. The CNN report of Brazil, Europe and Canada still lives on in other reporters reports of reports. Funny thing is I have seen Canadian and EU officials stating there is no CCD in their respective countries. Is that all it takes is one half baked report of CCD somewhere and hundreds of android news reporters all over the world regurgitate the latest CCD reports? For me this has been a lesson in how broken our world news reporting has become. There is very little actual reporting done. NYT stands out and occasionally a local reporter digs up some real factoids, the rest is one big rumor mill. Imagine how the rest of the so called news is misrepresented. Scary really the way people will accept it as fact and form opinions or make desicions based on this crap. It may go down as the biggest mystery of all...the actual number of hives affected by CCD ? No one may ever know..... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 17:54:04 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Susceptible? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If you bring bees from somewhere that has never seen Varroa or Tracheal > are you better off or worse? > So it is not far off the mark to question the advisability of bring in a > bee that has never seen Varroa or Tracheal, especially since it seems > counter to everything else that is going on in the "stressed" rest of the > world. Very true. Questioning is very wise, especially if the questioning leads to testing and learning based on facts. There are facts available, and it would not take a lot of testing to verify them. Firstly, it is not as if Australian bees have not been brought into North America previously over a long period, and even transported to the US previously as a result of sales of bees from Canada. Moreover, those who did the first package imports into the US consulted with Canadians about their extensive experience with Australian stock before doing so, and the potential effects of mites was definitely one of their concerns. As I stated previously, in my experience, there is little -- in that regard -- to distinguish the Australian bees I have owned from the US bees I have owned. Secondly, it is not as if the USA is populated on average by bees which are highly tracheal resistant. It is not. We've been through this before. Please refer to the chart at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/tracheal.htm and take a good look. Ask questions if you do not understand what is portrayed very clearly there. It seems very obvious to me, but I guess others can't interpret the data. What it says very clearly, in simple terms, is this: Yes, there are some very resistant lines for sale in the US, BUT there are also some *very* variable suppliers on the chart, and even some breeders that proved *more susceptible* than the line that the lab intentionally selected to be terrible! You don't need to have Australian bees to be vulnerable to TM. Some of those loser US strains may be in your yards right now, or last fall, at least! Any US beekeeper -- other than possibly those who have the Russian stock and several other lines which are known for strong and consistent resistance -- who is not checking and/or treating for TM regularly and rigourously is playing Russian roulette. There are just too many susceptible strains for sale in the US to be confident that TM will not strike, so how does bringing in a stock of unknown resistance change things? * * * * * I also do not share the certainty that tracheal mite resistance cannot exist in the absence of challenge by the mites. Inasmuch as it is a combination of traits, not AFAIK, a special trait, I assume that it can occur to varying degrees anywhere. * * * * * Further, I question the assumption that the Australian bees are, by default, susceptible due to lack of challenge. For one thing Australian breeders have been importing stock over the years (not always legally) to address exactly these issues, and also receiving reports from Canada as to customer experience and satisfaction. Australian suppliers also visit our yards to see for themselves, and there are even family members of Aussie breeders running bees in Canada. * * * * * So far, this debate has been driven by ignorance and questionable assumptions about the Australian bees, and ignorance of the levels of susceptibility in US stock. The only thing that will resolve it is facts. What is needed to put all the conjecture to rest is a repeat of the study Baton Rouge did some time back. I think it would point to the cause of many continuing losses. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 18:42:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: more CCD math fun + reporter's facts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredericksen wrote:Is that all it takes is one half baked report of CCD somewhere and hundreds of android news reporters all over the world regurgitate the latest CCD reports? For me this has been a lesson in how broken our world news reporting has become. There is very little actual reporting done. If you have ever been interviewed and then read the resulting news story, the above enlightenment would not seem so mind boggling. At one time I was an Auburn professor and I've only been on Auburn's campus for a total of about three days for my state's annual spring workshops. People ask me about CCD here and I always tell them to take things with a grain of salt keeping in mind that newpapers are out to make money, and sometimes that means jazzing up the news. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 23:11:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I was asked for my veiws on CCD today by a reporter from a large circulation newspaper. I tried to provide the latest information. Especially the news about the USDA-ARS Florida 400 hive experiment published in the "catch the buzz" newsletter. Hopefully the reporter will get it right. What has been found in CCD samples: I thought I would put in our archives . The below is word for word. No wonder the exact cause can not be found! >From the Congressional Research Service Report to Congress: March 26th 2007 (page 8) " HIGH levels of bacteria, viruses, and fungi have been found in the guts of the recoverable dead bees" CCD report Dec.15th,2006 Not all samples had these things but these things were found in the CCD samples looked at: 1. crystal-like formations were observed in the thorax where muscles are located 2. Malpighian tubules were found to be swollen and discolored 3. Pyloris scarring was evident in between 0%-45% of the samples examined 4.PA cursory examination of the gut reveled many pollen grains of unknown origin. The pollen grains seemed largely intact and many did not appear digested 5.ALL PA samples were found to have nosema spores in their rectal contents 6.The sting gland of many examined bees were obviously scarred with distinct black "marks".( H. melanois and B melanosis depending on the casual agents) 7.In addition to their sting glands, evidence of melanosis was found in the ovariies of infected queens 8. distinct debris clumps in the tracheal network examined in the abdomen of bees.Mycelium was observed growing from a tracheal branch into the larger tracheal trunk 9.Other potential fungal mycelium was observed in other tissues such as the sting gland ,the body wall ,etc. 10.dead brood from Georgia had both chalkbrood & stonebrood 11.analyses were done on five queens and five workers from the living colonies that were declining in the PA operation. These samples reveled extensive viral and fungal co-infection, with all bees being infected by DWV, nearly all infected by BQCV,a significate number having KBV,some SBV, and almost all having chalkbrood infection. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 07:13:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Susceptible? In-Reply-To: <002201c7929d$b62b99e0$6401a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great post from Allen. But both of us missed the mark on this. I had the germ of it in my post and should have listened to myself. It is not the mite. We have said this often on this forum, but we tend to point to the mite as the problem when it is the virus. Varroa and Tracheal mite resistance focus on the mite, generally with bee grooming. You want to limit the virus. Mites are a secondary problem when you are buying bees to bring into an area that is, or recently was, mite free. If you bring in bees that have been stressed by the virus to an area that does not have the virus, you may be bringing in good bees but the bad virus. So where you had no virus problem before, now you do. Hence, bees from Hawaii, Australia and NZ, even if those countries have mites, would be better than stressed stock which might harbor virus. This is born out by the fact that there are mites in Canada, but many places do not have the viruses that are the problem in the US. They can postpone the problem by bringing in virus free (or reasonable so) bees. Where my original conclusion comes in is when the mites and virus are present in an area. Then you probably will be worse off bring in non-stressed stock. Probably is operative since they may have great grooming behavior, so can reasonably handle the mites. Same with bees bought from any supplier, as Allen noted. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:38:31 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: CCD in the Honey Market Report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>This phenomena is being coined as a potential "AIDS for the bee industry" I hope this does not become common speak! AIDS is a funny thing... The AIDS test does not check for specific viruses, it checks for antibodies. Some 70+ conditions, not related to HIV, will give you a positive AIDS test - you take the flu shot and you will test positive for AIDS! People have committed suicide or have been abondoned because of the AIDS test results. In Africa, people with malaria or tb test positive for AIDS and are not given clean water or treated for those conditions but get treated with deadly AIDS drugs instead. We don't want this kind of mendacity in beekeeping. The beekeeping community needs to keep CCD as real as possible. Isolate the real root causes, if any, and address them in safe, effective ways. The public's knowledge about honey bees and their importance benefits from the media coverage of CCD. I keep hearing about it all the time from people at work. On the other hand, investigative reporters should do their homework and not emulate the story over and over. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:45:43 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: symptoms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Were their bees checked by the CCD team for damaged malpighian tubules? Were large commercial beekeepers with big CCD losses in the US using OA? I guess we won't know since OA is not registered. By the way, I've been using OA for the past 3 years. All my colonies came through this winter w/o losses. Several people have said bees don't ingest OA. Can OA reach kidneys in other ways? Ari, do you see anything like CCD in Finland where OA use wide-spread? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:54:32 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>"HIGH levels of bacteria, viruses, and fungi have been found in the guts of the recoverable dead bees" Would it not make more sense to look at the live bees in collapsing colonies? Bacteria and fungi thrive on dead organisms. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:29:31 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: CCD in the Honey Market Report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit this is _very_ off topic, but so blatently untrue that it needs to be addressed. yes, i know that there is a "movement" of sorts that doesn't believe that aids is caused by the hiv virus, and they publish data that supports your claim below...but they are the only ones (in my mind, it's akin to the "holocost never happened" stuff). most of the "data" that supports your claims are written by 1 person (Christine Johnson...who does not believe that hiv causes aids), and most (if not all) referances to her position are very outdated (ie, no one is really making these claims since the mid 90s). if you want to read more (with citations to where the data came from), check out: http://www.thebody.com/content/art31898.html ...that said, calling ccd the "aids of bees" is unfortunate all around. deknow -- "waldig@netzero.com" wrote: Some 70+ conditions, not related to HIV, will give you a positive AIDS test - you take the flu shot and you will test positive for AIDS! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:42:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Howard_Kogan?= Subject: BCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All this talk about CCD and nary a word about another problem that has troubled me for years-BCD Beekeeper Collapse Disorder. Symptoms range from backaches to one's hair turning white and even falling out to a pronounced difficulty in lifting oneself out of the furniture. Once you start to see them posting on Bee-L you know its just about all over! HK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:08:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Pulling honey- wax moth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I worked in New Zealand myself a season when I was first getting started with bees. The beekeeper I worked for did something with his supers that I didn't know to wonder about at the time, but it's puzzled me since: he stored his supers "sticky," in other words, with the residual film of honey left after extracting. I remember him lamenting that due to a poor year the year before he was having to put a lot of dry supers on the hives, which didn't work as well as the stickies. Since then, I've never heard of beekeepers putting stickies out at the start of the season. I was in the storage shed more than once. There was nothing noteable about it. It wasn't heated or cooled. It wasn't anywhere near airtight. I guess it was at least dark enough inside to deter the nearby bees from getting in and cleaning the honey off. The shed was just a rough, stand- alone shed that his brother-in-law happened to have had available, sufficient simply to keep the supers from getting rained on. The only noteable thing about the situation that I can think of is that it was a very dry area. I wouldn't ever think of doing what he did, first of all, because I'd assume the honey would sour and possibly make my next crop more likely to sour, and secondly, because I'd figure I'd wind up with a huge insect problem (ants, etc.) Does anybody store supers sticky or know of others that do? What are the necessary preconditions, and the advantages, and disadvantages? Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:38:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Would it not make more sense to look at the live bees in collapsing colonies? Bacteria and fungi thrive on dead organisms. Many live bees were looked at by the CCD team. The CCD team has taken a closer look at bees than at any time I can remember in beekeeping history. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:44:38 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, the same initial reports from last fall/winter keep getting cited and re-cited, often inaccurately. The majority of samples taken by CCD team members have been live bees -- remember, CCD doesn't leave many bodies. Also, PA bees were readily available to PDA and PSU and as such were the first to be examined and the results reported. PA bees may/may not turn out to be representative of CCD in other parts of U.S. And Fl bees with CCD have lots of connections to PA. Similarly, in the initial draft of the AIA survey, 50% of the returns were from PA, 60% from PA and OH, 66% from PA, OH, and FL. So PA has lots of data for their state, and the PA investigators have served their state well. Contrast that to states where you can't find anyone to even talk to about CCD or any other bee problem - since bee inspection services have been cut back or eliminated. Also, we drew up a map of fed, state, acad, and private bee research facilities. Not surprising, the eastern half of the U.S. has the majority of the bee research groups and probably the most beekeepers when you count all of the hobby and sideline operations. Interestingly, in the west, not only are the states geographically large, but so are many of the bee operations (large, mostly migratory), but very sparse in terms of availability of bee research groups. Jerry ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:46:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Storing supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I also store my supers sticky. I got started on this by a guy who claimed that when supers were put on the hive 'sticky' the bees were much less hesitant to go through a queen excluder. After several years, I'm not at all certain this is true but have continued the practice. What I like about it is that I never have to content with the odious mass of robbing bees and yellow jackets. But...this is in the icebox of upstate NY where wax moth is mostly not a problem after extraction in the fall. I put my supers on pallets with a solid floor, so mice cannot set up shop. I got several tarps made with elastic corners that just fit across six supers, and they go on the top. Some yellow jackets and bees get under the tarps, but the mass robbing behavior never appears. I store supers as high as I can reach. I recall eight high. I know someone else who goes up 15 high with the help of some kind of front-end loader. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:47:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Beekeeper CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, beekeeper burnout is part of the CCD syndrome. Several of the large migratory bee operations in CA before the almond blossom had another type of disappearing disease - their crews. Every time they looked at their colonies, more had dwindled or succombed. That started endless rounds of inspect, combine, re-grade - every day, every week. More than one beekeeper lost crew members who tired of the long days, just quit, and went home. Jerry ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:48:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Mites morphing into CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstarphoenix/news/local/story.html?id=c827c7cb- c3c6-4a25-8700-e5a51968855a&p=2 Mites killing Sask. honeybees Michelle Martin The StarPhoenix Thursday, May 10, 2007 CREDIT: Richard Marjan, The StarPhoenix Blake Rooks checks a hive of healthy bees south of Saskatoon Trevor Rehaluk expected to hear the familiar buzz of thousands of honeybees when he checked his hives this spring, but most were quiet. The majority of his 1,200 hives were empty. Rehaluk, a Nipawin-area residence, believes a persistent parasite called the varroa mite is to blame for the bees' disappearance. The phenomenon is similar to colony collapse disorder, the name given to the mysterious loss of more than a quarter of the U.S. honeybee population. Mysterious honeybee disappearances have also swept Canadian provinces, particularly Ontario. "The mites put such a large stress on the bees that they almost go crazy and they seem to leave the hive to get away from them," said Rehaluk, who is in the midst of unwrapping his hives in preparation for the summer honey flow. This is the second media article I read this week where the beekeeper has apperently morphed mites into CCD. The other article was an Illinois source I beleive. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 07:02:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: symptoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote:> > Marion Ellis ( researching OA for several years) has expressed concern at > presentations I have attended over treating bees with OA at any time other > than the broodless period which is around Thanksgiving in Nebraska. > Bob, I didn't think that Dr Ellis had ever suggested that he suspected m tubule damage due to oxalic, so I checked with him. His reply: Randy, I have never suggested that OA treatment affected the bees Malphigian tubules. I have stated that in the North Central Region treatments applied in late November to broodless colonies are most effective. Treatments applied at other times are less effective, but we have not observed any colony injury, even when treating 3X at 7 day intervals....feel free to post my reply. Marion ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 10:05:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I found a pretty good summary of what is known about CCD as of 05/08/2007 http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=15325 Unfortunately, they refer to several items of interest which they neglected to include on the page. If anyone can figure out how to get these graphics, please let me know. > Varroa mite levels are given below in the figure below. [no figure] > However, with the samples collected from colonies in CA (see figure)[ditto] > The table shows infection prevalence in live adult bees (no table] pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 07:32:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Name dropping revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Aaron and all contributors to the List: Certain contributors have gotten into the habit of attributing quotes or hypotheses to researchers or other beekeepers who don't normally follow Bee-L. In the past two weeks, I've checked with some of those whose names were dropped, in order to determine if the quotes attributed to them accurately reflected their views or research. In each case, they did not appreciate being quoted without permission, and felt that the the quotes did not reflect their views. In my opinion, this constitutes a serious problem for the List. If researchers who follow Bee-L, such as Drs. Nasr or Bromenshenk, are misquoted, they will reply in order to correct the misinformation. Unfortunately, researchers or beekeepers who don't subscribe are unlikely to do so. So that leaves the readers in a quandry: do we all need to check with the source quoted to confirm the accuracy of each attribution? This would overwhelm the researchers. If we don't check, we must either accept the attributed quote as accurate, or discount it out of hand due to lack of faith in the contributor who submitted the quote. In my opinion, these misquotes give the entire List a black eye. There are reasons that most researchers don't subscribe to the list! This is truly our loss. Researchers and commercial beekeepers are justifiably concerned about their reputations. They word their written results and opinions carefully. On this list, we should feel free to discuss opinions, wild ideas, or be able to change our individual opinions as much as we want. However, this does not give us license to misquote others in an effort to support our own views. May I ask the moderators to reject posts that attribute opinions to a named researcher without substantiation? Any accurately quoted published material would, of course, be appropriate to post. Failing that, could any questionable post be forwarded to the appropriate researcher by the moderator, so that the readers know that the researcher has been given the chance to respond? Or better yet, could the contributors show some restraint in name dropping, and contact the researcher themselves to obtain permission to quote them. I have, in my research, found that they are happy to be accurately quoted. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:59:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Beekeeper CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jerry & All, Thanks for the CCD post! help problems: Many commercial beekeepers had trouble getting out of country help this last year. Especially out of Mexico. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 13:23:13 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: symptoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Last fall about 60 % of 60 000 beehives in Finland were treated with OA. OA use has grown during past 4 years from about 50 % to 60 % today . We do good statistics in beekeeping. Last 3 year smaller than average winter losses ( about 10 %, 20 year average about 15 %) Winter 2002 - 2003 we lost 37 % of hives. 2002 fall only 36 % were treated with OA. The fall was warm and dry, no nectar and limited pollen. The winter was colder than average. I think main reason was that winter bees were weak because they developed with low quality pollen or with low amount of pollen. We could see that bee amounts were dropping already in fall. Had this happpened this winter we would be high in CCD list. CCD is a media hit also here. I give 2 - 4 interviews for media weekly. Reporters are unhappy when I tell them that we have not had recent bee losses in Finland. 2002 - 2003 also many other European countries had high winter mortalities. Ari Seppälä Finland ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:22:57 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Pulling honey- wax moth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The beekeeper I worked for did something with his supers that I didn't > know to wonder about at the time, but it's puzzled me since: he stored his > supers "sticky," I actually don't know any commercial beekeepers in Western Canada who do not store their supers sticky. Nobody I know of would go through the bother of taking them out to be robbed or putting them on hives to be licked out. That would be expensive. Supers go direct from extracting to storage, which is usually bee-tight. There are a number of advantages beyond the savings in labour and bother. The honey coating seems to keep the wax softer, and combs get less brittle over winter -- and, of course the bees are quick to go into them when they are put on the next spring. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 15:49:55 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: CCD in the Honey Market Report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>yes, i know that there is a "movement" of sorts that doesn't believe that aids is caused by the hiv virus Did I say HIV does not cause AIDS? Although quite a few epidemiologists say it, I did not say HIV does not cause AIDS. I don't know if it does or does not. I do know AIDS victims typically die of secondary diseases resulting from seriously weakened immune systems. There are many factors in weakened immune systems (just read the AZT insert - AZT side effects mimic the symptoms of AIDS). I did say the standard AIDS test often results in misdiagnosis. On the other hand, the grave predictions from the 1980's that AIDS would become an epidemic in the general society have not materialized. And I am not convinced that people have become more faithful or celibate because you'd see a significant dent in STDs. AIDS being unrelated to bees and CCD, my original comment had to do with improper comparison of CCD with AIDS. Similarly to AIDS, some of the dire predictions in the media about CCD are unfounded AT THIS TIME. Something is causing some colonies to lose its workforce. As far as I can tell, it will be some time before we know some concrete facts from the CCD team. My point is that we should not jump to premature conclusions and just wait for the facts. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:52:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Storing supers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > I also store my supers sticky. Same here. No problems but we are in the North where it does get cold and no bugs to deal with until spring. By the time they are bothersome, the supers are on the hives. I put them on an upside down cover and cap them with another so mice cannot get in. Plus they were in a barn but now in a shed so enjoy below freezing weather most of the winter. In the barn some bees would come in to see what he odor was all about but lost interest when they could not get into the supers.Absolutely no problem in the shed. A long time ago I would put them out for the bees to clean up, but my neighbor called and asked why all the bees were congregated at her door and she could not get out. I learned that once they think there is something out there, and there is nothing late in the fall, they start looking and were attracted to her home. So I stopped the practice. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:57:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: symptoms In-Reply-To: <006c01c7930b$d3df5260$ad25fea9@jps.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Randy: Thanks for posting Marion's response. I would like to add the following. I have been testing and working with oxalic acid since 1999 in Canada. There are more researchers in Canada doing similar work. We did not ever find that type of colony kill in our experimental colonies. Beekeepers who use oxalic acid did not report any high kill as side effects of OA. High kill could occur when the use of OA is abused and/or misapplied. I have been swarmed with many questions about the OA & M. tubules. My answer has been "I have no research info on that aspect". Antonio Nanettie from Italy did a lots of studies on oxalic acid including using radio active OA to determine the pathways in bees. In his presentation in Alberta last February he did not notice any effects on M. tubules. I hope that who ever has a scientific report on OA & M. tubules can share this information with us. I am getting bees from an operation that has been using OA for the past 4 years as the sole mite control method. These bees will be examined for any M. tubules damage. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:06:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: symptoms In-Reply-To: <20070510.044552.1953.348049@webmail07.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: > Were large commercial beekeepers with big CCD losses in the US using > OA? I guess we won't know since OA is not registered. A problem the team faces. Who is going to admit they are using illegal treatments? Add that some use multiple OA treatments and you are asking for trouble. CCD and OA just do not fit since the EU has used it for a long time without CCD showing up. Same with Formic. Plus, wasn't the non-commonality of mite treatment an initial finding, which would seem to rule OA? Or, since CCD seems to be an evolving problem that takes on new parameters as it goes along, maybe OA now fits. By the time this gets done, hiccups will fit under CCD. Since that is my current condition, I ask for indemnification. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:38:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: symptoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, Bob Harrison wrote:> > Marion Ellis ( researching OA for several years) has expressed concern at > presentations I have attended over treating bees with OA at any time other > than the broodless period which is around Thanksgiving in Nebraska. > >Bob, I didn't think that Dr Ellis had ever suggested that he suspected m tubule damage due to oxalic, so I checked with him. I agree! I never said he suggested M tubule damage. Read again what I wrote above. I have sat through many of his presentations and the above statement as written I think Marion would agree to. CONCERN " Marion Ellis researching (oa for several years) has expressed **concern** at presentations I have attended ( ABF. Missouri State . Midwestern beekeepers) over treating bees with oa any time **other than** the broodless period which is around Thanksgiving in Nebraska" Marion never said oa could be causing tubule damage. You did! I know you said how harmless OA was in your articles and *may* be so but researchers are looking hard right now at problems. Closer than at any time in history in my opinion. Just because beekeepers around the world say any product is safe to use in a bee hive does make it so. Look at the problems caused by apistan & checkmite. Has Marion checked in his oa research for damaged M. tubules before and after OA use? Has Medhat? Has any researcher (other than the CCD team). I don't think so or I am sure ehey would have shared the results. Findings from the CCD researchers could possible teach us many new things about honey bees and the way we care for our bees. What are the effects of current treatments ? short term? long term? His reply:(Marion Ellis) Randy, I have never suggested that OA treatment affected the bees Malphigian tubules. Marion never did and I did not say he did. You are jumping to conclusions Putting words in my mouth! >I have stated that in the North Central Region treatments applied in late November to broodless colonies are most effective. He has and has spoke on other times (summer) and the benefits and effects. > Treatments applied at other times are less effective, but we have not observed any colony injury, even when treating 3X at 7 day intervals....feel free to post my reply. Marion I guess this might be another case where all the beekeepers at the Midwestern meeting need their hearing checked. I just contacted a couple Marion has always told us the safe time and most *effective* time to treat is in the broodless period. Are you saying some brood and eggs are not hurt during summer treatments? Give me a break! Would then say as Marion says above that you could treat 3X at 7 day intervals all summer without any injury to the colony. Remember there are MANY beekeepers on this list listening which have experience with OA further back than either you or Dr. Ellis. Opps! If I misquoted my long time friend Dr. Ellis I apologize. Why don't you post the email you sent to Dr. Ellis saying your version of what I said on BEE-L? Did it go like this: " Bob Harrison said you think oa is causing M. tubule damage in honey bees!" If so no wonder he said what he said: Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:59:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: symptoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, This is the post which caused the stir. I knew it would as once the industry embraces a treatment they swear buy it. Bob Harrison said: >Many on the list will not like what I am about to say but I think Jerry B. will agree. Some CCD problems have been linked to OA use. Possibly even formic. I believe in past discussion Jerry B. said the CCD was looking at OA use and CCD problems. Jerry correct me if wrong. Of course what have the team not looked at searching for a possible cause? Very few things. >Both OA & formic could be causing the M. tubules problems I have been told. The industry has shifted to those products. I am NOT saying those products are the source on the M. tubules problems but only sharing what I have been told. I AM NOT SAYING THOSE PRODUCTS ARE THE SOURCE ON THE M. TUBULES PROBLEMS BUT ONLY SHARING WHAT i HAVE BEEN TOLD. Notice I left the name of my source out! I am sure Jerry B. and others would love to know who is feeding commercial beekeepers information. Sorry! These are my thoughts exactly: I MYSELF HAVE TROUBLE THINKING OA COULD BE CAUSING PROBLEMS BUT RESEARCHERS HAVE EXPRESSED CONCERN. CONCERN. >Suspect are OA treatments during the brood season . OA has been around a long time around the world and is a legal treatment in Canada. I myself have trouble thinking OA could be causing problems but researchers have expressed concern. Quote Randy had fault with.: >Marion Ellis ( researching OA for several years) has expressed concern at presentations I have attended over treating bees with OA at any time other than the broodless period which is around Thanksgiving in Nebraska. Nothing about Marion saying he thought oa was causing tubule damage in bees. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:10:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Pulling honey- wax moth Comments: To: allen dick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, >I actually don't know any commercial beekeepers in Western Canada who do not store their supers sticky. I do not know of any commercial beekeepers in my area which to do store their supers sticky. I place mine on a forty foot ocean container and fumigate. Taking a load of wet supers into a strong bee yard after a honey flow would cause serious robbing. Sticky supers in my opinion keep comb soft and entice the bees to move quickly through queen excluders. I will say the big Dadant extractors spin comb a lot drier than most hobby beekeepers can get with a 2 frame handcrank. Also slipping out around dark and putting wet supers on a couple hives with reduced entrance most likely would work. I might consider putting on hives despite the problems if the honey I had extracted from those boxes was quick to granulate honey. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:16:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: symptoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Medhat & All, Thanks for the reply! Nobody has used the words "high kill". My CCD source only expressed concern with what might be causing the tubule damage. Which alone I doubt could be the sole cause of CCD. Please let the list about the results of your tubule testing! What do you think might be causing the CCD M. tubule damage/ What would be your guess? With respect, Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:23:06 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: symptoms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Medhat, >>Antonio Nanettie from Italy did a lots of studies on oxalic acid including using radio active OA to determine the pathways in bees. Did Mr. Nannettie's study determine if honey bees ingest OA syrup or not? And did he use the trickle method or sublimation? Thanks, Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:25:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Oak pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oak, be it honeydew or pollen, is a big item with bees and a big problem = in some areas. While state apiarist in NJ, I found Blueberry = pollination was adversely affected in southern NJ by the concurrent oak = bloom. The native forest in the commercial blueberry growing areas is = almost virtually pure pine and oak. After a day or so on site the bees = were all in the oaks leaving the blueberries to local native non-apis = bees, mostly southern blueberry bees and various bumble bee species = which were more effective and common on the field margins. Timing of = the arrival of naive pollination units to peak bloom was the key to = successful pollination, too early and they had scouted the area and = moved to the oaks before the blueberry bloom.=20 Further there is antedocal evidence of a correlation between oak bloom = and EFB. That is a CORRELATION not proof of a cause and effect. (As an = aside, the "small cell" crowd might want to make sure they understand = the difference between the two terms. They are very heavy on = CORRELATION and very short on PROOF.) Most areas where chronic EFB is a = problem also tend to have large oak populations. It is a common misconception that bees don't collect pollen from wind = pollinated species. Corn, sorgum, various grasses and other "wind = pollinated" species are often very attractive to bees in general. = Likewise the misconception that there must be an attractive nectar = source for pollen collection to occur and that POLLEN COLLECTION is a = "side effect" of nectar collection is dead wrong. The problem is people = fail to understand the difference between POLLINATION and POLLEN = COLLECTION, two very different matters, which may or may not occur at = the same time. Just to make things even more "murky" is that corn like cotton has extra = floral nectaries. If you doubt me, see Mr. Pellett. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:27:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: symptoms In-Reply-To: <008b01c79327$044e5ac0$09bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Bob said: What do you think might be causing the CCD M. tubule damage/ What would be your guess? The sample size was too small to drew any conclusions. What reported is an observation. The question of CCD and M. Tubules is a big question considering all pathogens and stressors found in these hives. The bee venom shut down the guessing centre in my brain! I examine some bees. I hope that If I find M. Tubules with symptoms as described, we will analyze the "Kidney stones!" to find out if they are oxalate or something else. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 15:10:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: OA damage In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The only issue with OA that I have ever seen is multiple use or either too much or too little OA in solution. Multiple use before winter in cold climates can be harmful and lead to overwintering problems mainly because of bee loss. If the bees are out and about in warmer climates they can replenish their numbers, but they will suffer a setback. Too high a concentration will kill bees. Too low will not kill mites. The optimum time to apply it is when the colony is broodless or nearly so. There was a concern that you should not use both a fall and spring treatment, but that appears to have been dismissed. I do not know of anyone who has lost bees to Varroa or suffered major bee loss here in Maine who uses OA. I do know those who did lose bees and used OA, but they lost them to Tracheal mites. It seems that OA does not give the one-two punch that Formic does and handle both mites. This issue seems to fit nicely with CCD in that it goes from a published problem into a major scare in milliseconds with little or no reliance on what has already been published and is available in the literature. CCD has been seen before but has been elevated into hysteria. Even comic strips are lamenting the disappearance of all the honey bees. There needs to be clarification by the team, but I doubt we will hear it since this issue has moved from science to politics and left reason behind long ago. Too much possible money is a stake, so why tell the truth? Mites are our problem. CCD is only a subset of that problem. When CCD has been identified, the mites will still be there, still killing bees in greater numbers than CCD ever has. We still do not know the real extent of CCD and how many colonies it has killed. We do know the extent of mites and the damage they inflict. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:45:46 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Name dropping revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Marion Ellis ( researching OA for several years) has expressed concern at >> presentations I have attended over treating bees with OA at any time >> other >> than the broodless period which is around Thanksgiving in Nebraska. >> >>Bob, I didn't think that Dr Ellis had ever suggested that he suspected m >>tubule damage due to oxalic, so I checked with him. > > I agree! I never said he suggested M tubule damage. Read again what I > wrote above. Well, when you look at it with the context removed, it seems you did not, BUT, let's be honest and look at the whole thing in context. It looks much different when you don't conveniently edit out the previous paragraphs. Unless you suddenly were entirely changing topic in the last paragraph, the context indicated to readers that you were implying a relationship between using OA during brood season and tubule damage. You then explicitly mentioned Dr. Ellis's recommendations, which appeared to be intended as a backup for you own speculation. Otherwise, why name him, unless he somehow was involved, since the advice to use OA in the broodless season is general and not something that is at all unique to Dr. Ellis. Everyone says the same thing. Let's look at what you wrote: --- You wrote: "Both OA & formic could be causing the M. tubules problems I have been told. "The industry has shifted to those products. I am NOT saying those products are the source on the M. tubules problems but only sharing what I have been told. "Something is damaging the malpighian tubules ( bees kidneys). Damaged M.tubules was found in most CCD bee samples. "Suspect are OA treatments during the brood season . OA has been around a long time around the world and is a legal treatment in Canada. I myself have trouble thinking OA could be causing problems but researchers have expressed concern. "Marion Ellis ( researching OA for several years) has expressed concern at presentations I have attended over treating bees with OA at any time other than the broodless period which is around Thanksgiving in Nebraska. --- Looking at the whole thing, there was no apparent justification for mentioning Dr. Ellis, or place his remarks in that context. Randy was entirely right. Speculation is one thing, but using peoples' names in the context of speculation is very risky and can reflect very badly on the writer, if not carefully qualified. Personally, I hate namedropping. I much prefer that people NOT use my name to back their own ideas up, and I try to be very careful when it is sometimes necessary to quote or use the names of others. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 15:33:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: more CCD math fun + reporter's facts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There's a difference between a reporter misquoting someone and being lazy and using other news articles as sources. How many times has the cell phone, Einstein, and EU,Canada, Brazil remarks been recycled? There is no proof for any of these in fact if a reporter or john Q public does just a few minutes of searching online one would quickly see that there are numerous other reports debunking these so called facts. In fact weeks later these same myths are being recirculated in articles almost every day I had a reporter call here a couple of weeks ago and left a message. I called back 15 minutes later. Too late big hurry, never heard from him agian. The resulting article said something to the effect, Mn honeybees are still hibernating so beekeepers are not sure what they will find when they open hives. This was late April . Not a single beekeeper was interviewed. A bunch of the familiar recycled junk from the internet was cited as news. This is not unique to the bee story and a big reason why Web 2.0 is taking off as people are fed up with junk news. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 15:46:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Australian Stock vs. US Stock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >> ...Australian imports have never had any Tracheal exposure and having >> them installed in almonds near the major California queen breeding areas >> could create a new round of tracheal susceptibility in the USA... > Is there any proof backing this up? What part of the word "could" was unclear in the article? :) The Aussies promote both their country and bees as "disease and pest free", which implies that they have no ability to even test for tracheal mite resistance. They claim they have never seen a single tracheal mite in Oz. > TM resistance is a trait that can fade fast unless actively maintained. Yes, and this is why it is so highly unlikely that Aussie queen and package producers have any chance at all of producing tracheal mite resistant bees. (If they were using breeder queens and semen imported from the USA or elsewhere, it would be much more possible, but they have a near 100% ban on bee-related imports.) > I have had years of extensive experience with stock from a number of > Australian suppliers, and I have not found their stock to be particularly > susceptible to tracheal mite. But did you have ANY tracheal mite issues at all in those yards? The mites have to come from somewhere, ya know, and they just don't live for long away from live bees. If you did have other (non-Aussie) colonies suffering from tracheal mite infestation near the Aussie bees, and if you really did sample and test for tracheal mites, finding that the Aussie bees seemed resistant, please tell us about it! > This sort of speculation -- unless there is some real evidence to back it > up -- IMO is irresponsible, and -- if spoken in public at all -- should > always be accompanied by a disclaimer that it is merely an idea, and there > is no proof -- until there is, at least. Again, what part of "could" was unclear? Anyway, the whole issue seems to be moot, given the report of Apis Cerana in Australia in Bee Culture's most recent "Catch The Buzz" newsletter. What with all the concern over Nosema Ceranae, I'd guess that both Canada and the USA will shut down Aussie imports until they can prove that the situation with Apis Cerana is not going to turn out to be the same sort of Three Stooges Film Festival scenario that unfolded with small hive beetles in Australia. > Most scientists are really careful not to say hypothetical things like this, Clearly, you don't get invited to the sort of places where real science is discussed. This sort of speculation is constant. Properly qualified (as was the comment to which you object was), there is nothing wrong with such speculation. > since people fail to understand that it is merely speculation, and > immediately believe that -- since it came from an authority -- it must be > true. I don't think that the beekeeping community needs anyone to translate from English to English for them. I suspect that the readership is much smarter than you seem to think. > I'm betting, though that the Aussie stock is not worse than the run of the > mill US stock, and it actually, from my experience may be better. How much, exactly are you wagering? What sort of odds are you giving? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 16:01:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Survival of the rarest In-Reply-To: <46436E33.4080703@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting article on foraging behavior and survival of a species. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-05/uot-sot050807.php There are two types of foraging genes, "rover" or "sitter" type The last sentence really caught my attention. "The researchers' next step is to show that this phenomenon is also taking place in the wild. In addition, since the foraging gene is found in many animals, including honeybees, mice and humans, the researchers are examining how variations in the human foraging gene may be linked to food-related disorders." I knew I had something in common with my bees. At least the sitters. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 16:20:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Pulling honey- wax moth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 10 May 2007 12:10:13 -0500, Bob Harrison wrote: >I do not know of any commercial beekeepers in my area which to do store >their supers sticky. I place mine on a forty foot ocean container and >fumigate. Thanks, everyone for the information on storing supers. Bob, could you clarify what you meant to say here? Allen, Bill, and Lloyd, thanks for your responses, too. Can anyone tell me why the residual honey doesn't take on moisture and ferment? Wouldn't that, at the very least, mean higher osmophilic yeast counts in next year's honey? Maybe I need to try storing away a stack sticky at the end of this year. Anybody have any warnings before I do? Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:18:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: storing sticky supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Eric wonders why sticky supers don't show signs of fermentation. Good question. I'm sure the yeast spores are there. My guess, for my supers, is that it is too cold and too dry. But that is in upstate NY after freezing in the fall. In the spring/summer they get on the hives before fermentation can set in. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 23:38:00 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Susceptible? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Firstly, it is not as if Australian bees have not been brought into North > America previously over a long period, and even transported to the US > previously as a result of sales of bees from Canada. Moreover, those who > did the first package imports into the US consulted with Canadians about > their extensive experience with Australian stock before doing so, and the > potential effects of mites was definitely one of their concerns. As I > stated previously, in my experience, there is little -- in that regard -- > to > distinguish the Australian bees I have owned from the US bees I have > owned. Back in the early days of Australia sending queen bees to Canada, some queens were sent to Ontario for testing against tracheal mites. Some lines were very "resistant". Others were not. Probably puts them in the same situation as most lines in the USA. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA The cut off date, 15 May, for early bird registration for Apimondia is fast approaching ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:18:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Pulling honey- wax moth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Eric, >I do not know of any commercial beekeepers in my area which to do store >their supers sticky. I place mine on a forty foot ocean container and >fumigate. I am sorry for the above. I meant to say. "I do not know of any commercial beekeepers in my area which don't store the supers sticky" Thanks for pointing out my mistake Eric. Today has been a zoo around the bee farm. Maybe I have never posted about seas going containers. The container is placed on 6 in. of gravel. The container is airtight. The container is food approved. Not all are. You can tell food approved as they have got a steel floor covering in the front floor. The container will hold 20 pallets of 48 medium supers shrink wrapped. I could go higher but 48 lets me put 960 to a container. The door opening is 8 foot so I drive right in the container. I place a cardboard box with a pound of paradiclorabenzine in the nose, middle and rear of the container on top of the pallets. By covering the four very small air vents in each upper corner with duct tape the 3 pounds of crystals protect the 960 supers or always has. Most beekeepers using containers like mine use phosden gas ( legal treatment) but a nasty chemical so I choose not to. I have got a friend which blames his current illness on constantly going into an area of phosden gas. I usually put all the supers on the hives so no treatment is needed in summer as on the bees but If I do not use all I usually put with pallets of supers in the building . The supers in my building ( all won't fit on the container)are on special pallets 48 mediums or 36 deeps. Nothing can enter from the bottom as three quarter plywood or the sides as shrink wrapped. I place para crystals on each stack of individual supers on the pallet. On top of each individual stack is an inner cover with the center hole sealed with duck tape. Deep side down with the crystals on a piece of paper. My supers are my biggest beekeeping asset. They are fully insured ( Farm Bureau ins). I lost a stack of 18 brood nest supers a decade ago in the building because they were not on a pallet and I forgot to renew the para. We had been busy and when I went to grab the stack yuk!. Wax moths through the stack! I have never returned supers to be cleaned by the bees. The supers off the container can go right on the bees. The supers coming out of the building need aired out. Hope the above helps! Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:54:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Cleansing of bees antennae In-Reply-To: <008301c79326$13c70980$09bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whilst spending a few moments observing the comings and goings from the top entrances of the second boxes added to my colonies last week, I noticed something that I have not seen before ! A high percentage of bees leaving the hive quickly wiped over their antennae before launching off to where ever they were flying to. Appeared too many to be just "chance activity" - but no figures at present to back up statement. I am being observant in picking this up - or not very having just noticed it. Is this occurring in other peoples colonies ? If it is me who has first noticed the activity - then I claim it to be nominated as "Dillon's Wipe". Yikes, possible fame at last. Regards, Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 00:23:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Oak pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rip Bechmann wrote: > Further there is antedocal evidence of a correlation between oak bloom and > EFB. That is a CORRELATION not proof of a cause and effect. We know that symptoms of EFB usually appear in the spring at the time of the first good flow. (This is because more bees are recruited to foraging and larvae get less feeding.) Could it be that the flowering of the oak occurs at the same time as your first good flow - which is the real reason for the symptoms appearing? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 20:43:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Bob and All, Dennis is actually more main stream than many of the other approaches to small cell I have seen come down the pike. Some of these approaches to small cell are in fact so different, they IMO will end in catastrophe if one were to adopt such an approach. >To use a page from your beekeeping on feral comb. >Have you ever seen small cell size throughout the colony? I NEVER have. This is a good point, and no I have not. But if one looks at the configuration of an elongated feral nest. During the seasonal progression of the broodnest, nearly the entire broodnest, or at least a large majority of it will be situated on the smallest cells, and generally durring some part of the season. This seems to occur in feral nests I have observed starting sometime in June, and lasting thru into late August, the time that it will be most effective against mite reproduction. Makes no difference if the bees rear brood up in the storage cells during spring and early summer due to mites low population, and preference for drone at this time anyways. The configuration of domestic beekeeping hive bodies, necessitate that all the comb be small cell, due to the lack of this type of seasonal broodnest transition found in elongated feral nests which tends to reduce brood rearing in the larger cells at the right time. >However most commercial beekeepers realize IF they do not treat at least >once a year then hives today hives start crashing with varroa. I agree, but Penn State is now advising, to treat ONLY if needed. And when treatment is necessary, they are recommending soft treatments. >Many would argue about telling new bees that small cell is the answer to all >their problems. No need to promise new bees anything. I am seeing new bees coming to small cell on their own because they are looking for organic methods of keeping bees. >Even on various lists I have seen small cell advocates recommend a possible >varroa treatment until the bees are fully on small cell. I would agree that some type of control of varroa would be wise during regression. The reduction in varroa seems to be greatest during winter in small cell colonies. It took my bees about 3 seasons to get varroa down to very low levels coming out of winter, but I used no controls. If you look in the various >catalogs selling small cell foundation you see a warning is given that small >cell should be used with caution by new beekeepers. I think it reads ‘for experienced beekeepers’ due to the degree of difficulty newbees may have in regressing. “Caution” is the term commonly used on the Apistan label and other pesticides. >when you have got a mentor you blindly follow >along. Yes, this is a problem. I encourage the new bees I mentor not to blindly follow what I say, and some will question my advice, and I always encourage that. I focus on helping newbees to be independent as soon as possible by teaching them how to evaluate “what they see in the colonies performance“. My goal is to give guidance and course correction when needed, while prompting the new bee take the lead in more decisions as experienced is gained. ‘I stand behind the new bee, not in front of them’. >What small cell evidence? Real proof of the benefits of small cell has been >lacking. Read what I wrote again. I said: “small cell beekeeper having all the evidence at their disposal”. Now this could be evidence FOR or AGAINST. But what I am saying is the evidence is there for them to make their "own decision" for or against. That’s why I found it odd that they would want to wait to see your results,,,, didn’t make a heck of allot a’ sense to me. Could you point us to some real evidence other than what we are >told by "some guy named Joe on the internet"? We are referring to these small cell beekeepers that you said they would scrap small cell if your testing of small cell failed. These beekeepers should NOT listen to you nor “some guy named Joe” “They can LOOK in their own colonies for the answer, whatever the answer may be”. >Many colonies were on 30-50 year old black comb when varroa hit and they >mostly died. IMO, The influx of varroa and virus etc. from colonies from populations crashing is something few colonies can withstand. I know there are stories of the hive that did, but experience tells me that it is few. >From what I am seeing in the bees here, is perhaps a single colony of bees is as much a part of the srounding population of honeybees as the surrounding population of honeybees is a part of the colony. Due to the new rules here on Bee-L about quoting others and name dropping, I can mention his name. But a friend of mine has a fascinating description of what he termed ‘virus bombs’, and how a micro population of honeybees under certain conditions can bring down healthy colonies in the surrounding area with them. ….Genetics play a bigger roll than cell size >our researchers have always said. I don’t know that you can assign which is more important when they are all essential parts in the entire scheme of things. But what I have found was that being on small cell allowed me to drop all the treatments. This enabled me to better assess the colonies genetics on their true merits, and without treatments elevating a colonies performance to something it is not. Enjoyed the discussion! Good luck with your experiment! Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Derry, PA “Bees Gone Wild Apiaries” FeralBeeProject.com http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 20:27:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: symptoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If I misquoted my long time friend Dr. Ellis I apologize. Why don't you post > the email you sent to Dr. Ellis saying your version of what I said on BEE-L? Bob, I consider you a friend, and respect your bee knowledge greatly. I mean no offense, I just want to keep Bee-L posts up to a high standard of accuracy. Opinion and speculation need to be clearly separated from factual research results. At times like these, with colonies collapsing, and livelihoods at stake, people latch on to any explanation, especially from a well-respected authority such as yourself. Just look at the press reports about that silly cell phone study. Loose words can get rumors raging. I think that any reader of the list read your inclusion of Dr. Ellis' name as support for your hypothesis that oxalic acid damaged malpighian tubules. Frankly, sometimes I feel that your enthusiasm to do good things for the industry leads you into indiscretions. You may note that in my posts, and in my articles, I personally quote what authorities "said" only with their permission. I suggest that you do the same. Since you asked, I will post in full the email that I sent to Dr. Ellis. I attached your Bee-L post unedited. "Hi Marion, Bob has a habit of misquoting people. Do you have a concern about m. tubules, or were you just suggesting lack of efficacy? Randy" ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 23:02:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Joe and All, >The configuration of domestic beekeeping hive bodies, necessitate that all the comb be small cell, due to the lack of this type of seasonal broodnest transition found in elongated feral nests I would say if keeping bees in a single Lang then you might need all the frames small cell but in two deeps the bees mainly use 5 frames up and five down for brood rearing max. IF Not pushed to brood up by heavy feeding. Also If you add enough supers most colonies will stove pipe up the middle their brood nest *when in two deeps*. Bob said: >However most commercial beekeepers realize IF they do not treat at least >once a year then hives today hives start crashing with varroa. Joe said: >I agree, but Penn State is now advising, to treat ONLY if needed. I think its wonderful Penn State and many places with so called *beekeeping schools* make these recommendations. However those people do not make a living from bees. Big difference! Like I said earlier most commercial beekeepers will treat for varroa at least once a year without giving a second thought. Say you have got a large number of hives are you going to treat as needed? Only treat a few hives in each yard? Pay help making 10-17 an hour to place sticky boards in each hive?Go back and pick up? Count mites? Fuel cost are close to $3 a gallon and most bee trucks get less than 10 MPG.? Commercial beekeepers will most likely test a few hives ( some only look at drone brood)to see if treatment is needed but then all I know will treat the whole yard. University researchers simply walk outside to care for the hives most of the time plus like a hobby beekeeper the hives to not need to support themselves. Bottom line is not a problem. > It took my bees about 3 seasons to get varroa down to very low levels coming out of winter, but I used no controls. I remember you have said the above before. I am willing to keep some small cell hives around for three years to see what you are seeing but wouldn't just installing some Russian bees in large cell hives be easier? I left 400 hives of Russian bees untreated without varroa & PMS problems. I sent a large sample of bees to the Wentworth Military college biology lab for TM checking . One TM was turned up. I could never turn up any TM in the Russians so sent the samples out to a friend to test as a classroom project. The Russians always had a varroa load but I never saw a Russian hive with PMS. The Russian bee is a genetic solution to varroa but some of us hard headed beekeepers always looking at the bottom line figure an Italian and a treatment makes better business. >That’s why I found it odd that they would want to wait to see your results,,,, didn’t make a heck of allot a’ sense to me. I don't believe the list is waiting for my results. They did not wait when I tested the Russian bee. I am sure the list will be interested in my observations. Some will say proves nothing. Words never bother me so not a problem. If a single beekeeper gleans a useful bit of information from me then I am happy! I will be fair and honest as I have got no agenda. Also like I told Dee the night we talked. I am in no hurry to test. I run a beekeeping business first and test second. Hopefully I will feel like I can spare 165 frames of brood this year right before the honey flow to start the test. If not I will start after the main honey flow. When Peter inquired about my supercedure test (150 colonies) I said off list . I care about finding out exactly the amount of supercedure of queens but not enough to spend days digging through strong hives of 60,000 bees at my busiest time in August to find each queen. I will verify marked queens next spring when she is easy to find and I have got plenty of free time. I also plan to run the test two years unless I see a huge amounts of queen problems. >We are referring to these small cell beekeepers that you said they would scrap small cell if your testing of small cell failed. You guys have begged for a test! So far I am the only person to step forward. I will do various ways of testing small cell and share what I see. I have no agenda. Also I have been very honest about what I plan to do. 2 frames of small cell (wood frames with crimp wire small cell foundation) in the center of the brood nest of a hive on a flow thinking of swarming. 82 hives involved. 165 frames sitting ready to go in the building right now. Once drawn correctly I can configure the hives however I want to test. Dee wants me to try some fully drawn (which I agreed to) but I am not a big fan of fully drawn.. However a friend in Australia ( Terry Brown)and another in California ( Shad Sullivan)is testing the fully drawn small cell also. So the three of us can compare notes. I spoke with Australia this morning (night in Australia) and they said the would call as soon as new information on the cerana find happens. > Due to the new rules here on Bee-L about quoting others and name dropping, I can't mention his name. There are no new rules to that effect only what Randy posted. I have attended many presentations of Marion Ellis and his workshop in Nebraska. I first met Marion Ellis when he came to do a presentation when I was president of the Midwestern Beekeepers in 1993. We have been friends a very long time. If I did not get what he was trying to say in his presentations correct then I apologize. I would say I have attended 10 or so presentations of his. Mostly on varroa mites and treatments. Always had the utmost respect for his beekeeping skills. . I have been on this list a very long time. I would guess over 6,000 posts. I attend many beekeeping meetings and like to report what I hear and learn for the benefit of those which are unable to attend. Over the last almost fifty years I have made beekeeping and researcher contacts from one end of the U.S. to the other plus out of country. The moderators on BEE-L are fair. They keep a close leash on me. I also after so many years know what I can get approved and what I can't. Not all my posts are approved! Surely comes as no surprise! Some times Aaron tells me why but usually does not. I never argue but go back and rewrite the post. >and how a micro population of honeybees under certain conditions can bring down healthy colonies in the surrounding area with them. I happen to agree with your friend as I have seen the above with my own eyes. > But what I have found was that being on small cell allowed me to drop all the treatments. In my opinion this is the part which causes you and Dee problems. You both surely can see how complicated beekeeping problems are today. varroa,tracheal mites,Virus, nosema ceranae, chalkbrood,EFB & AFB. Those of us which keep bees for a living fight the above all the time. Usually when something sounds to good to be true I have sound my gut feelings were correct. I was around when all we worried about was foulbrood. Sadly those days seem a long time ago! Enjoyed the discussion! Me too! I will talk beekeeping for days on end. Dee said her and I would most likely spend countless hours talking beekeeping.if I came to visit. I am sure we would. >Good luck with your experiment! Thanks! You have my word I will be honest and only report exactly what I see. I actually would like to get the results you see! However I won't report things I do not see. I won't do a test with 4-6 frames of small cell in the brood nest and say all the frames were small cell. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 07:53:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Cleansing of bees antennae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon wrote: > A high percentage of bees leaving the hive quickly wiped over their > antennae before launching off to where ever they were flying to. Normal behaviour as far as I know. I am sure that I read it in one of my beekeeping books many years ago, but I do not have time to try to find it. I suspect that you will have to look for fame elsewhere - sorry! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 07:58:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Oak pollen In-Reply-To: <01b401c7935a$2f4c0780$8bcc6a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: > > We know that symptoms of EFB usually appear in the spring at the time > of the first good flow. (This is because more bees are recruited to > foraging and larvae get less feeding.) Could it be that the flowering > of the oak occurs at the same time as your first good flow - which is > the real reason for the symptoms appearing? EFB is also seen on the blueberry barrens in Maine, but it has been associated with blueberries, which are difficult for bees to pollinate. I have oaks all over our yard and immediate area with no apparent EFB, so not sure if there is a correlation. But they leaf out when dandelion is at its peak, so not a good data point. Our actual first flow is maple, well before oak. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 09:56:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: more CCD math fun + reporter's facts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here's todays does of misinformation. Now we have all 2.4 million hives affected. http://www.wwmt.com/news/bees_35891___article.html/says_bee.html SOUTH HAVEN (NEWSCHANNEL 3) - Dead and dying bees are littering the water at the beach in South Haven, raising questions about what's killing them. Scientists are calling it colony collapse disorder. It's a serious problem. Two point four million bee colonies in America have been decimated or lost, and this could affect you. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 10:10:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: symptoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, >as support for your hypothesis that oxalic acid damaged malpighian tubules. I you read carefully I was only sharing information I received directly from a member of the CCD team! Take it for what it is. I also said I had a hard time believing OA caused the tubule damage. I still do. Medhat i believe (there I go again using a name ) I believe (in my opinion) understood the issue and is going to take a look at some M. tubules. "Hi Marion, Bob has a habit of misquoting people. I don't think most on the list would agree with the above. After the huge number of posts only two or three instances have happened and they were challenged by the same person. BEE_L does know I will share what those researchers have said in presentations. I have NEVER had a researcher ever approach me by email ,phone or at a national meeting about what I have said on BEE_L concerning their work and many do *read* BEE-L. Some on this list try to fight every new idea that comes out (except their own). When you travel to national meetings you hear the bee labs give their reports on what they are working on. The virus work at Penn state was eye opening this year. SMR research was when first presented. Hygienic was. If you look in archives many fight all but the old ways. News of new discoveries and problems in bees are always fought at first. What is causing the m. tubule damage in CCD bees? Will be out of the office for the next few days. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 11:46:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: STR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was going to rant about OA, I'll spare you All methods are not equal, read, study & judge for yourself Now a update on the lack of larvae 1.5 d later,w/ extra strong reading glasses, in 4/5 nucs I see no larvae older than 1.5d, most 1d & <, plenty doubles (2-3%), plenty of large "puddles" (>5%?) One nuc no larvae So why did the older larvae die? Formic? Nurse failure? Infection in egg, or royal jelly? So all my planned experiments fall down, no easy way to judge success or failure, no sure control Almost no STR to be seen dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 17:21:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Symptoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm reading a lot here about CCD and O/A. When I first heard that we should be careful using O/A on bees in this CCD environment I assumed it was because the M. Tubules were already damaged and it would be wise not to stress the system any more. At that point no-one knew which bees were struggling. Remember, some bees threw it off. Anyway, that's the way I read the caution. Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 18:35:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Pulling honey- wax moth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/05/2007 00:33:51 GMT Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: I place a pound of paradiclorabenzine in the nose, Isn't PDB carcinogenic? Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 18:44:49 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Cleansing of bees antennae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/05/2007 00:33:52 GMT Standard Time, pdillon1@MTS.NET writes: A high percentage of bees leaving the hive quickly wiped over their antennae before launching off to where ever they were flying to. Peter, If you look closely (with magnification) at the foreleg of the bee you will notice at the proximal end of the basitarsus a semi circular notch with a comb inside. This is the antenna cleaner. Look slightly further towards the bee and you will find at the distal end of the tibia a small fibula and in the cleaning action this closes over the notch to complete the circle through which the antenna is drawn. The bee invented the Swiss Army Knife before Switzerland was invented! Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 18:52:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Cleansing of bees antennae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/05/2007 00:33:52 GMT Standard Time, pdillon1@MTS.NET writes: If it is me who has first noticed the activity No, it's not, but have you wondered why they do it? Speculation (unproven AFAIK) is that the antennae, being important and sensitive scent detectors need to be cleaned of the adhering scents of the smelly interior of the hive to help them operate more effectively in the more rarified scent evnironment outside. Anthropomorphising, they are cleaning their palates. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 19:06:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob wrote: >Penn State is now advising, to treat ONLY if needed. > >I think its wonderful Penn State and many places with so called *beekeeping >schools* make these recommendations. However those people do not make a >living from bees. So what are you saying? It's OK to treat when it's NOT needed? This is a sensible recommendation and is the cornerstone of any IPM plan. Non-chemical controls first; chemicals only when absolutely needed. Only a fool would use poisons when they weren't needed. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 19:09:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 In a message dated 11/05/2007 11:27:43 GMT Standard Time, =20 bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: Fuel cost are close to $3 a gallon and most bee trucks get less than 10 MPG.? Have you worked out your business/beekeeping plan for when US fuel gets =20 scarce and expensive? Here in the UK fuel costs about =A34 ($8) a gallon an= d the=20 vehicle I use for my (hobby) beekeeping yields almost 60 mpg although our =20 gallons are a bit bigger than yours. =20 Chris =20 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 08:15:48 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Cleansing of bees antennae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote: > to help them operate more effectively in the more rarified scent > evnironment > outside. The Organs of Johnson on the antennae are, I believe, used in the measurement of speed and possibly distance. Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 09:18:39 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Good news! The CCD Team can go Home Now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you believe this piece, the problem is solved. http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/archives/06-07/may12.html#2 allen ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 11:58:11 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: symptoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I was only sharing information I received directly from a member of the > CCD team! Take it for what it is. I also said I had a hard time believing > OA caused the tubule damage. I still do. What you shared was speculation, AFAIK, not information. There is a difference. An important difference. > Medhat i believe (there I go again using a name ) I believe (in my > opinion) understood the issue and is going to take a look at some M. > tubules. Medhat is heavily involved in research into OA delivery methods and has to look at anything that comes up. I took his response as being highly skeptical. Nonetheless, he and all of us have to consider any and every idea, no matter how unlikely. Therefore the fact that the idea is getting some consideration does not indicate anything more than that it is not totally implausible. Maybe you are right, and have some early info, but who knows ? What we all do know is that it had nothing to do with Marion. >> "Hi Marion, Bob has a habit of misquoting people. > I don't think most on the list would agree with the above. You might be surprised, then. People are polite, and, besides, we understand that when you attribute ideas to others you may be a bit of, and we either politley ignore that attribution and consider the idea on its own merits, or contact the person named, if we think it is important. Out of good manners, we don't usually challenge you unless a person's reputation is at stake, but I can assure you that there is a lot said off-list. > After the huge number of posts only two or three instances have happened > and they were challenged by the same person. I have challenged you numerous times, especially when I was a moderator and felt some responsibility to the people being implicated, but I thought that -- contrary to what you just claimed -- another person just stepped forward to challenge you, leading to this discussion. > BEE_L does know I will share what those researchers have said in > presentations. I have NEVER had a researcher ever approach me by email, > phone or at a national meeting about what I have said on BEE_L concerning > their work and many do *read* BEE-L. Trust me, they keep their heads down and hope you won't notice them any more than you have. > Some on this list try to fight every new idea that comes out (except their > own). This list gives every and any new idea a good workout. Any objections I ever hear are as to the presentation of the idea, the attribution, or the claims made for the idea. The ideas themselves are well appreciated, well discussed, and, if discredited, even then brought up again and again for (usually respectful) reconsideration. Nobody objects to your mentioning OA or formic as being candidates for scrutiny where bee damage is concerned. In fact, this has been a constant source of concern, and also wonder, since none has been obvious. This has been particularly of interest, since we know we could not administer OA or formic to ourselves the way we do to bees with impunity. > When you travel to national meetings you hear the bee labs give their > reports on what they are working on. The virus work at Penn state was eye > opening this year. SMR research was when first presented. Hygienic was. This is very true. We get a glimpse into what is going on, and get to talk face to face with the people doing the work. Let me go on record here as appreciating the work you do to spread the ideas around. I have no problem with that. My main bone of contention with you has to do with repeated unnecessary namedropping, offering quotes that the person supposedly being quoted won't confirm, and claiming to know people better than they will admit to, when asked. > If you look in archives many fight all but the old ways. News of new > discoveries and problems in bees are always fought at first. I prefer to think that the new ideas are examined and debated and examined on their merits, which is how it should be, especially on a university-sponsored list. Of course, given the wide range of personalities, education and experience on the list, misunderstandings often occur, but, nonetheless, the discussion is usually civil and respectful especially if the rules are folowed. There are some who occasionally enjoy indulging in hyperbole, rhetoric, pettifogging or bombast, but that is seldom, and usually curbed by moderation. > What is causing the m. tubule damage in CCD bees? I guess we will have to wait to find out. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 17:47:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Cleansing of bees antennae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/05/2007 10:46:52 GMT Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: The Organs of Johnson on the antennae are, I believe, used in the measurement of speed and possibly distance. There is a lot that isn't known about Johnston's organs. Actually I am wondering whether the area of the antennae where they are located is in fact swept during the cleaning process. Peter D - you have been studying them - do they clean Johnston's organs? Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 18:16:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Cleansing of bees antennae In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris and Peter, Even though I am aware of the particular corporal structures fashioned to clean the antennae, you can't start to imagine the disappointment being felt at the present in having my observation already known in the wider world of the beekeeping fraternity. What caught my eye was the activity was being performed just before the bees flew off. Logical activity - which bee would wish to fly around with residual hive dust hanging on causing don't know what problems. Thanks for your comments. Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 18:48:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Cleansing of bees antennae In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris and others I should be able to get a few minutes re-observing time early next week. At present rushing around putting on second brood boxes, equalizing, and making floors and inner covers that should have been done during winter. This morning - took varroa counts and this pm. grafted 80 queen cups. My first typical Canadian (Manitoban) spring - most of the Canola is in the ground. Had residual snow drifts until last week, now the apple trees are just in bloom, as are Plums, Pin and Choke cherries amongst other pollen sources. Oh yes, clouds of pollen coming off the White spruces which the bees are going crazy over. Any info. on nutritional values of the latter would be welcome. Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 20:36:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: more CCD math fun! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/529966/ Source: Cornell University Released: Sat 12-May-2007, 14:00 ET Newswise — Scientists are working hard to understand the sources of a staggering decline in honeybees in as many as 27 U.S. states and countries in Europe and Asia this winter, said Cornell associate professor of entomology Nicholas Calderone, during a media teleconference May 10. In the United States, half a million to a million colonies out of a total 2.4 million colonies have died this winter. Both tracheal mites (Acarapis woodi) and varroa mites (Varroa destructor) have threatened the bee industry since the 1980s, causing similar catastrophic die-offs to bee populations in the winters of 1995-96 and 2000-01. The mites feed on U.S. honeybees and act as a vector for a number of bee viruses, though varroa mites are especially deadly. While many bees this year exhibit symptoms of mite damage, about 25 percent of the deaths this year cannot be attributed to mites or any other known honeybee pest, Calderone said. (end of article quote) Ok we now have two researchers using the aproximate of 25% of this past winter losses are attributed to CCD. Dr. Calderone uses a wide range of .5million -1.0 million for total winter losses so the CCD estimate using his information is 125.000-250,000 hives affected. I highly suspect now that the Apiary Inspectors of America estimate of 25% of colonies is out of context and it should really read 25% of the TOTAL winter losses. So there we have it 2 researchers corraborating the same general statistic which can also be indirectly referenced back to Jerry Hayes and the AIA. I think we can now safely say that an estimated 10% of hives in the USA were lost to Colony Collapse Disorder since fall of 2006. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 21:15:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Varroa Free Bees MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Allen Dick posts " As I stated previously, in my experience, there is little -- in that regard -- to distinguish the Australian bees I have owned from the US bees I have owned." This being the case, is it not true we are continually watering down our native stock that is trying (hopefully) to develop genetics to cope with the mites? Alden Marshall Hudson, NH ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 21:35:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Almer's Apiary Subject: Re: storing sticky supers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you happen to be in an area where you get either Cotton or harvestable Aster honey late in the year you might want to rethink storing wet supers. The wet honey crystallizes and in my case seemed to be seeding the spring honey resulting in early crystallization. I had always assumed that the bees would clean all that out before storing spring honey but it appears that in my case the good strong spring honey flow was changing the bees' priority from cleaning to storing honey. Or it could have been that they did clean the cells and stored the Cotton honey along with the spring honey(which would not be seeding but the result might be the same). This is totally non scientific and completely based on experience and assumptions as to the cause and effect BUT when I discontinued storing wet Cotton honey supers, the problem went away. Bob Fanning North Alabama USA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 01:40:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Irwin_Harlton?= Subject: honey market april 13 2007 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.fdl.co.uk/main_content.asp? id_content=403&id_subitem=26&id_division=6 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 22:47:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: <001d01c794fc$40038370$0201a8c0@BLINE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Alden Marshall: I do that think that good bee stock received from Australia is watering down genetics here in North America to preclude bees from handling mites, either trachael or varroa. I say this because all races/strains looked at so far by beekeepers using SC for such, do not seem to have a problem with either mites, once their bees are regressed down in size and queen shift is completed. Also, no one is reporting problems continuing with secondary diseases either. Also I would like to add that watering down, as I see it, wouldn't apply here, as new stock received would add to, and not take away, in a watering down mode in a genetic pool. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 04:53:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But you don't have any native stock, any more than the Australians do. Chris In a message dated 13/05/2007 02:58:11 GMT Standard Time, b_line@VERIZON.NET writes: This being the case, is it not true we are continually watering down our native stock ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 07:31:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: <483077.34727.qm@web51605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > once their bees are regressed down in > size and queen shift is completed. How can you assume they are the same race of bees you started with unless you use AI? You might clear this up for me since I have trouble understanding how the queen "regresses" unless she is is a new queen raised on the next size down. If they open mated, it would seem you are back to local bees. After a couple of "regressions" you would be more local than what you started with. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 08:04:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: more CCD math fun! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > > I think we can now safely say that an estimated 10% of hives in the USA were lost to Colony > Collapse Disorder since fall of 2006. > > Nice diagnosis. I would love for there to be at least a plausible number, but as long as you rely on the beekeeper's input and not direct observation of the condition of the colonies before CCD, even that reasonable number is suspect. Especially now that money may be involved. It is obvious that there is no good number and most of what we hear are guesses based on, in my opinion, unscientific extrapolation. Or repetition of what may have been reported before, which may have had no basis in fact. You only have to look at the reports from Ohio, with little or no CCD or major CCD reported. It all depends on the observer and their conclusions/extrapolations. Too often you can take your own observations and think they are universal. It is interesting that CCD was first reported in three mid-Western States and they seem to have fallen off the map. All the investigation seems to be concentrated in Pa. and Fl..I would think that it would concentrate on those operations where it first appeared. Has the team looked at those operations, created a baseline and continued the observations with periodic inspections? If CCD is a recurring problem and not Disappearing disease, which is here and then gone, that would seem the route to take.Too many later reports are suspect. It will be interesting if we see CCD with bees in the blueberries. They are coming from all over the US and especially Florida where CCD is either 2% or 25% or more. So we should see it, if it is a recurring problem. Plus, we have the best Bee Inspector in the country on scene. I will repeat my mantra- mites are the real issue. If you read Dr. Calderone's comments, that comes across clearly. CCD is only a subset. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 08:16:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re; Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ALDEN MARSHALL wrote: >This being the case, is it not true we are continually watering down our native stock that is trying (hopefully) to develop genetics to cope with the mites? As another pointed out, there is no such thing as native honey bees in the US. And bees are not "trying" to develop genetics of any kind. Beekeepers may be trying to get bees more suitable to their uses, but natural selection does not work *toward* a goal -- though it may to appear that way to the human mind. Without complete isolation, there is little chance of any sort of separate type of bee developing on it is own. Geographic isolation seems to be a prerequisite of classic Darwinian evolution. In most locations you have a continual influx of bees from a variety of sources due to people buying queens from other areas. For natural selection to take place, and the traits to become fixed, a great deal of time must pass. This is the whole reason that in most cases, when a person wants particular traits in the plant or animal they are raising, they resort to breeding. With the breeder selecting and isolating the traits he wants the process can be accelerated and directed. If you are really interested in resistant bees, I would suggest buying from queen breeders that have already made good progress along these lines. I mean, think about it: if you wanted to have peaches in a region where peaches usually aren't grown, what would you do? Plant regular peach trees and hope for the one or two out of ten thousand that might survive in your area? Or go down to the nursery and buy hardy trees? Plenty of people have been selecting bees locally and are raising queens for sale. Why not try these, if you are serious about getting resistant local bees? You can still do selection on your own. By the way, Tom Seeley debunked the notion of finding bees in the woods and getting varroa resistant stock that way. He found the bees were not better than ordinary bees when he brought them back to his apiary and tested them side by side with "regular" stock. In my opinion the chief reason that bees may be able to survive better in the wild is because they are usually widely separated and up high in a tree. It is not beneficial for bees to be grouped in apiaries and living so close to the ground. * * * Apidologie 38 (2007) Honey bees of the Arnot Forest: a population of feral colonies persisting with Varroa destructor in the northeastern United States by Thomas D. Seeley Abstract - Feral colonies of European honey bees living in the Arnot Forest, a 1651-ha research preserve in New York State, were studied over a three-year period, 2002 to 2005. This population of colonies was previously censused in 1978. A census in 2002 revealed as many colonies as before, even though Varroa destructor was introduced to North America in the intervening years. Most colonies located in fall 2002 were still alive in fall 2005. The Arnot Forest colonies proved to be infested with V. destructor, but their mite populations did not surge to high levels in late summer. To see if Arnot Forest bees can suppress the reproduction rate of mites, colonies of Arnot Forest bees and New World Carniolan bees were inoculated with mites from an apiary and the growth patterns of their mite populations were compared. No difference was found between the two colony types. Evidently, the stable bee-mite relationship in the Arnot Forest reflects adaptations for parasite (mite) avirulence, not host (bee) resistance. -- Peter L. Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 08:45:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: more CCD math fun! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill wrote: If you read Dr. Calderone's comments, that comes across clearly. CCD is only a subset. "We don't really know what's going on. If there is something new going on, we need to identify it so we can develop a proper treatment" Calderone said. It sounds to me like he is saying "We don't really know" pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 09:22:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit He also placed a few bait hives around the forest so he could monitor mite drop. There were the peaks and troughs. What was unusual was that there was no large fall (autumn) peak. Chris In a message dated 13/05/2007 13:27:28 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: In my opinion the chief reason that bees may be able to survive better in the wild is because they are usually widely separated and up high in a tree. It is not beneficial for bees to be grouped in apiaries and living so close to the ground. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 08:05:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris: Here we go again with what is Native and how looked at, depending upon who's heritage for discovery one is looking at. Also, I personally still do not believe that the original testing (FABIS) and DNA looked at and set up was done with base stock properly FWIW. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 08:09:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: <4646F718.3030300@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill: How can you assume they are the same race of bees you started with unless you use AI? Reply: Just now what has this got to do with regression, except that it muddies the water, for it actually keeps regression from going forward, though somehow you just cannot see that; that is how it complicates the picture for getting better. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 08:14:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst, Sir Even: but natural selection does not work *toward* a goal -- though it may to appear that way to the human mind. Reply: What is evolution then going forward in a live and let die mode, where what works goes forward to perpetuate while the ones that cannot hang, don't? This is not working towards a goal of sustainable living? Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 08:18:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris: Depending upon the terrain the bees regionally and locally live in, bees do live in ground cavities and rocky places and can get quite populated with several feral colonies within an amazingly short stones throw of each other. Not all places have trees like you are used to seeing you know. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 12:07:01 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 'Working towards' implies purpose rather than just an occurence dictated by events. The result is the same. Chris In a message dated 13/05/2007 16:58:21 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: a live and let die mode, where what works goes forward to perpetuate while the ones that cannot hang, don't? This is not working towards a goal of sustainable living? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 12:11:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Seeley, not me. It seems that given plenty of available nest sites scattered over a wide area bees will tend to separate their colonies by about half a mile. However, without that 'given' they would have no choice but to use whatever is available even though it might not be their first preference. Chris In a message dated 13/05/2007 16:58:21 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: with several feral colonies within an amazingly short stones throw of each other. Not all places have trees like you are used to seeing you know. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 12:15:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So 'regression' ie, breeding bees on 4.9 comb, works in curing many problems whatever race or mongel mix? Right? Chris In a message dated 13/05/2007 16:58:49 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: Just now what has this got to do with regression, except that it muddies the water, ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 10:19:49 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Depending upon the terrain the bees regionally and locally > live in, bees do live in ground cavities and rocky places > and can get quite populated with several feral colonies > within an amazingly short stones throw of each other. Not > all places have trees like you are used to seeing you know. Interesting you should point that out. The characteristics you describe are exactly those widely ascribed to AHB by those who have studied them in various places. (AHB, coincidentally is considered by the authorities on the subject to be the dominant bee in your area, Dee). On the other hand, EHB, while able to accept any cavity of appropriate size, does not tend to ground dwelling or high density, partially due to their much lower swarming propensity. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 10:30:53 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Here we go again with what is Native and how looked at, > depending upon who's heritage for discovery one is looking > at. Are we going to redefine words, and twist their meaning? I hope not, > Also, I personally still do not believe that the > original testing (FABIS) and DNA looked at and set up was > done with base stock properly FWIW. This is possible, since to do such a task 100% correctly is virtually impossible. Some assumptions had to be made. However, the consensus is that the job was done reasonably well. Moreover, as time passes, there are new methods of checking back To date, however, there seems to be no evidence for stinging-type (European) honey bees in the Americas before the White Man, other than imaginative readings -- and likely misinterpretations -- of obscure documents. If you torture the data enough, you can get it to say anything, even that bees have been universally and permanently 'upsized', or that our common honey bees were here all along. If you don't torture it, though, and believe it speaks clearly and freely with its own voice, neither of these ideas has much credibility. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 10:54:31 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What is evolution then going forward in a live and let die > mode, where what works goes forward to perpetuate while the > ones that cannot hang, don't? This is not working towards > a goal of sustainable living? In a word, No. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 13:40:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Mites morphing into CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.record-eagle.com/2007/may/13bees.htm TRAVERSE CITY — Bill Hathaway pulled a wooden frame from one of a dozen beehives in a cherry orchard north of Suttons Bay. There weren't as many honeybees clinging to the frame as he expected, and the hive's lack of eggs was troubling. "This colony could be going into collapse,” Hathaway said. (end of article quote) Its taken over a decade to educate beekeepers about varrora mite and even longer on AFB and we still have over use of antibitiotics and miticides and annual losses due to a lack of knowledge. Now we will have more confusion in the beekeeper world as they deduce their own causes of a supposed malady they heard about in the 10 oclock news (see previous post on this topic). The misinformation on this malady could live on for another decade as the ignorance persists. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 15:11:15 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: CBC science show about bees/Florida s.h. beetles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yesterday May 12, Bob McDonald of the CBC science show Quirks and Quarks intervied a researcher about his work on small hive beetles Dr. Peter Teal is the Research Leader of the Chemistry Research Unit at the Center for Medical, Agricultural and Veterinary Entomology of the US Department of Agriculture in Gainesville, Florida. People can listen to the interview on work done _http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/archives/06-07/may12.html_ (http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/archives/06-07/may12.html) Walter Ontario ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 10:11:53 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bill: > How can you assume they are the same race of bees you > started with unless you use AI? > > Reply: > Just now what has this got to do with regression, Please, then, *clearly* define "regression", describing both the method and the mechanisms believed to be at work. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 17:23:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin asked me off list what was the cell size in Seeley's forest bees. As far as I remember he told me that it varied but was about 5.1 - 5.2 towards the middle of the brood nest. He also told me his latitude but I forget what it is. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 14:28:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: <015d01c7957a$8903b9e0$0301a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen: Even more interesting Allen is that such known places of dense bee populations were well known in Arizona even back in Ed's grandpa's time and we and other older beekeepers helped note these places to the local lab. Over the years they were written about also in the magazines by Loper and Levin and others too! My how people forget what they want to! and then only remember what they want to also as best suits their needs..... Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 14:56:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: <017301c7957c$1636ec50$0301a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen: Reply: Yes, assumptions had to be made within the parameters of politics of the times I would say to be considered the job was reasonably done well. Thus as time passes and technology advances then things have to be redone and new end results arrived at, like what actually were those fallen things from the sky? As for what is native Allen,well more ancient things are being found in various places, so one never knows how the books will end up as older settlements are found in the Americas. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 15:05:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris: Regression with what I call 4.9mm top tolerance and no playing, meaning all or nothing for combs in broodnest, top to bottom,with 1/4 inch spacing for foundation above bottom bars for drone option, works just like you asked, for curing problems of secondary diseases, and accompanying pest and parasites, whatever race or mongel mix. Yes. Then culled combs from same are rotated to sides and then up and out during extracting, in a continuous cycle as necessary .No other foundation size is placed into the hives for bees for base for keying to. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 15:09:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris: Seems to me, trying to remember here, that the Tucson lab wrote years ago of much more then that in bee density per square mile, which would coincide with higher density for our rocky mountainous areas of the southwest. Bear in mind that Seeley is writing of seeing ferals in quite a different region and plant growth area. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 15:14:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris: Good then. If the result is the same, as similar to evolution by live and let die, then regression back and taking away all treatments becomes meaningful to do then for working forward to achieve one's goal in combating mites and accompanying secondary diseases, regardless of race/strain or those mongrels you deal with. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________Give spam the boot. Take control with tough spam protection in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 20:02:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris Slade wrote: > >Tom Seeley, not me. It seems that given plenty of available nest sites >scattered over a wide area bees will tend to separate their colonies by about >half a mile. However, without that 'given' they would have no choice but to use >whatever is available even though it might not be their first preference. I would like to see the evidence that leads one to assume bees “tend to separate their colonies by about half a mile”. I would think that this is within the chance of random for feral colonies to appear to be spread out by that distance. There are many references that dispute this assumption, such as this account from an article appearing in the Fort Wayne Sentinel, Saturday, October 09, 1909 Fort Wayne, Indiana. “In removing the timber from three acres of land the owner found nine trees with bees and honey. Of these nine trees the largest amount of honey stored was about ten pounds, and on two of the trees the bees were storing honey by building it fast to small twigs outside the hollow in a tree!” Best Wishes, Joe ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 17:58:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: <015001c79579$6d3b4210$0301a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen: Please, then, *clearly* define "regression", describing both the method and the mechanisms believed to be at work. Reply: Passage back, return. To go back,move backward, return to state in this instance of previous size. Method here being to insert and use SC foundation, though each step in regression down/back is only about .2mm to .3mm sizing each jump down. (by the way HSC gets around this buying time) Why, Allen then? Here please note page 433 under honeycomb in ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture 1920 edition, right column, bottom paragraph "Several times it has been suggested that we enlarge the race of honeybees by giving them larger cells; and some circumstances seem to indicate that something may be done in this direction, altho there is little hope of any permanent enlargement in size unless is combined with it the idea of selecting the largest bees from whcih to propagate."..."Worker bees reared in drone-cells are sometimes extra large in size; but as to whether they can be made permanently larger by such a course is bery doubtful." Now Allen, course this was done with a series of upsizing over the years, though some seem to not think so, my man!! and today we are paying the consequences for this trend, especially since the 1933/34 era. and first Paris convention for beekeeping. Regression here is to merely size back down the comb sizes to the center of the natural size spectrum again,and away from various foundations in usage today to the bigger made in succession over the past several decades one might say. This then sets the stage for massive change within our honeybees again by changing their aerodynamics in flight and therefore in mating; change in foraging and what can be foraged patterns; therefore change in diet; change also in propolis which then changes hive suceptability to diseases/maladies, sterility of broodnest from bacteria, fungal, and viruses; also changes by size physical attraction for pests and parasites; also changes longevitity of the bees to longer and less development time in broodcells to emergence. Could go on I suppose but see no reason to keep listing as you will probably question all anyways. Now Allen, my reply to Bill was: > Bill: How can you assume they are the same race of bees you started with unless you use AI? > > Reply: > Just now what has this got to do with regression, So since you will probably want to know why I want to know what this has to do with regression let me then now go into for Bill and you here: Many wrongly believe that hybaridization is progressive breeding. It is not! In today's world, hybridization is for the most part mongrel breeding that produces only a short burst of hybrid vigor and then quickly falls apart with each succeeding generation. The final result is nearly always total mongrelization of local area bee stocks and an uncontrolled mixture of overly aggressive bees which makes beekeeping more and mroe impossible in todays urbanizing world. Then add to this the huge variance in so many treatments going on at same time, besides artificial diets of sugars and pollen substitutes and one is asking for disaster and I have not even mentioned that in a long term program of stock improvement, artificial insemination and various closed-population breeding methods should be avoided, as they lead to severe inbreeding, resulting in poor brood patterns, poor preouct averages, weak winter cluster carryover (not that some now don;t see this!) and colonoy collapse over a period of 20-30 years (another take on CCD maybe?). Nature breeds evolutionary chages that are progressive, retrogressive, or clones when race/strain survivability is at stake. But who talks about this Allen? for to go back to progressive breeding or even retrogressive breeding one must have acclimitized honeybees FWIW and this is what I was eluding to in replying to Bill and the AI bit. Will stop for now. You want more specific regressing down in size of combs go to: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/ and bring up the "Way Back to Biological Beekeeping" and read......... Regards, Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 22:04:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >once their bees are regressed down in size and queen shift is completed. Dee, Do the SC bees also reduce the size of the queen cells and queens as you regress the bees down from the larger cell size? Also, do you need to replace the queen each time you regress the cell size down? Percentage wise, how much more honey do the SC bees produce than LC since they are at optimum health, better flyers/foragers in your experience? Jerry Wallace ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 23:43:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chrissy Shaw Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: <015d01c7957a$8903b9e0$0301a8c0@Pericles> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick mentions that EHB does not live at ground level while implying that AHB is why Dee sees cavity dwelling bees in the ground and rocks. In the mid-seventies i was in Hawaii (Oahu and Hawaii) and every feral colony i saw was near the ground, often in rocks. There was no implied AHB population in Hawaii, nor is there any reported at this time, so one might as easly argue that EHBs do nest near the ground in warmer climates. I have seen more than one swarm take up location in western Washington near the ground level, in walls and high up in rock faces. It is my opinion that swarms respond to the attraction of the scouts regarding a sight. They most often will take prebuilt comb and in areas where there is a substancial addition to outside populations from beekeepers colonies on a yearly basis, such areas do not develop resistance to diseases and pests because there is always a source of empty infected combs. At least in the process of cell size regression there remains a difference in how a strain handles mites. I can not state that 4.9 levels this out, but i have no reason to assume that Dee would make up this advantage in using the smaller size. I am passing a great many breeds and trains through here and will keep all abreast as to my own results. Not only is isloation a key factor in developing a native-style bee, the genetic base from which that bee develops must be rather massive as that breed develops lest all the problems of narrow gentic base genetics come into play. In nature such a broad base allows enough varriation for these random genetics to eventually fix, if the base is too low there will be no native-style bee found. Chrissy Shaw ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 21:51:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry Wallace: Yes SC bees also reduce the size of the queen cells and also drone cells when you regress the bees down from larger cell sizes. Then to lock the size in you also need to sift queen so that born in the smaller sized down cells thus changing the aerodynamics of flight and hence mating, helps to make the size sift more permanent. This is done basically because smaller flys faster, meaning while smaller drones can ketch larger queens, it is harder for larger drones to ketch smaller queens in flight. So artificially enlarged LC queens and drones are then at a disadvantage in nature for always being pulled apart FWIW. As for production, it is hard to compare to outside of local region, as for example our desert climate though I get normally more in our area then others, in comparing to other regions of non-desert flora, some might say I do not get a lot. Yet, I am fully commercial and make living that way. I am not migratory either FWIW but keep permanent locations year round also. I also only take the honey above the cap or broodnest, and that honey that is in the broodnest in unlimited broodnest management, I do not change out and feed back sugar syrups either, being organic IMPOV, which if taken and sugars fed back could probably easily double what I yearly do. But then that would not be sustainable beekeeping to me, nor right ediquette for keeping healthy stock. Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 11:25:36 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: storing sticky supers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I had always assumed that the bees would clean all that out before storing spring honey... Perhaps the bees dissolve the crystals from aster honey in fresh spring nectar as way of reducing the nectar's water content in the honey ripening process? This would let them take care of 2 issues in one step. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 07:56:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Bee Breeding & Natural Selection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Nature breeds evolutionary chages that are progressive, retrogressive, or clones when race/strain survivability is at stake. But who talks about this Allen? for to go back to progressive breeding or even retrogressive breeding one must have acclimitized honeybees FWIW Concepts like "breeding" and "progress" are human activities and have nothing to do with evolution. Evolution is a process of natural selection that weeds out individuals who are not as well adapted to the environment. This process may take hundreds or thousands of years, so I hardly think that there are many bee populations in the US that can be considered acclimated, particularly given that most so-called ferals are escaped swarms from commercial stock which was probably raised in Georgia or California. The ability to survive a New England winter, for example, is a trait that developed thousands of years ago in Europe. Despite hundreds of years of being raised in Georgia, for example, bees have not lost this trait. So, it may take a very long time for *any* trait to develop via natural selection: that's why humans resort to breeding. And naturally they will have specific goals. Being short-sighted and narrow-minded, they may emphasize one character at the risk of losing other important ones. For example, a breeder may select for color, or size, and neglect health or viability. But back to nature! The honey bee evidently evolved in the tropics, where there are a lot of different types of plants and a lot of predators. Most species of honey bees live in the open, high in the trees. Some of the coping mechanisms they have are extreme aggressiveness, a high rate of swarming, and the tendency to abscond. These were not developed as breeding concepts, but by the weeding out of bees that were less aggressive, reproduced (swarmed) less often, and stayed put rather than flew off to evade predators or poor floral conditions. During the course of thousands of years, the bees in Europe were separated from Africa and subjected to a different problem they didn't have in the tropics: winter. Again, over a very long time, bees gradually developed the instinct to seek cavities, hoard large amounts of honey, and stay put during bad conditions. Swarming became reduced, because larger colonies are needed to maintain heat and gather sufficient surplus. In a warm climate, colonies needn't be so large. The bees probably became less aggressive because living in cavities protected them from a lot of the predators that would attack them in the open; at any rate it is easier to defend a colony in a cavity than one hanging on a branch. Now, the biggest problem beekeepers see in their bees these days is susceptibility to new pests that have been introduced as a result of modern migratory beekeeping. If we didn't keep bees in hives and move them all around the world, we probably wouldn't have trouble with most of the diseases we now have. As bee breeders, our *goal* is to have bees that can cope with these pests while *living in our hives*. Natural selection, if allowed to proceed, might produce very different results! Swarming is one of the best mechanisms the bees have to rid themselves of pests. Absconding, too, is another way of getting away from an infested nest to start clean somewhere else. Bees that can abscond can leave the region entirely, if necessary. Of course, very aggressive bees tend to be healthier as well, being intolerant of foreigners of all types. Maybe you can guess where this is headed: the healthier, more disease proof bees may already exist in Africa and Asia, in their original range. It may be that the European branch is an evolutionary dead end. It may be that the traits of cavity nesting, infrequent swarming, docility and the tendency to stay put could ultimately spell doom. And nature cares not a whit for her creations. They just slip quietly off the face of the earth and there are plenty of other creatures waiting to take their place. So it is we, not nature, who want healthy bees that are content to stay put and work for us. We don't want them swarming out and flying off to other counties! We don't want them sending out the entire population of adult bees to attempt to sting us to death every time we crack the lid for a peek! But look, it might be better for their survival -- their "fitness"-- if they did. -- Peter L. Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 08:11:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, Does this mean that generally your bees are bred in combs that are not many years in use? Chris In a message dated 14/05/2007 00:23:11 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: Then culled combs from same are rotated to sides and then up and out during extracting, in a continuous cycle as necessary ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 08:12:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: <20070514045101.14176.qmail@web51603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > Yes SC bees also reduce the size of the queen cells and > also drone cells when you regress the bees down from larger > cell sizes. When this started the question was that different races do well on small cell and my question was how you can preserve the race when the queen is open mated. Dee clarified that with the above. It appears you are actually selecting for the local bee, if I you are letting them raise their own. I have no problem with that since that is what I do, but I certainly cannot claim that I am preserving whatever the race of bee was when I started. If there were AHB in the area, we know that it will prevail when there is open mating. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 08:14:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, What would be the availability of natural nest sites be like in your area compared with forest? Chris In a message dated 14/05/2007 00:23:56 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: bee density per square mile, which would coincide with higher density for our rocky mountainous areas of the southwest. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 08:21:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Treatments, if successful, must delay the Darwinian evolutionary process. Chris In a message dated 14/05/2007 00:24:25 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: taking away all treatments becomes meaningful to do then for working forward to achieve one's goal in combating mites and accompanying secondary diseases, regardless of race/strain or those mongrels you deal with. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 08:26:01 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Were these the only 3 acres of woodland and therefore nest sites available to the bees or were they in the middle of a much larger area of woodland? Chris In a message dated 14/05/2007 01:05:36 GMT Standard Time, naturebee@YAHOO.COM writes: In removing the timber from three acres of land the owner found nine trees with bees and honey. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 08:30:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: <20070514045101.14176.qmail@web51603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline ----- Original Message ----- From: Dee Lusby > This is done > basically because smaller flys faster, I would like to see the data that leads one to this conclusion. I have heard it often enough, but would like to see the data. > meaning while > smaller drones can ketch larger queens, it is harder for > larger drones to ketch smaller queens in flight. So > artificially enlarged LC queens and drones are then at a > disadvantage in nature for always being pulled apart FWIW. What are the determinants of the size of a queen cell? It is often stated that queens with larger abdomens have more ovarioles and will produce more eggs. How does that aquare with the desire for smaller queens? Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:36:56 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Breeding... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>The honey bee evidently evolved in the tropics, where there are a lot of different types of plants and a lot of predators. ... Some of the coping mechanisms they have are extreme aggressiveness, a high rate of swarming, and the tendency to abscond. While this is very true of the African honey bees, the European honey bees have well adapted to what used to be the vast European woodlands. The survival traits they display today, such as swarming periods, tendency not to abscond, lowered defensiveness, huge honey stores, are all tied to surviving in temperate woodland conditions. Assuming bees evolved in Africa, how long did it take the descendants of Africanized bees to adopt to the European forests? Who knows but the selection process at the fringe must have been ruthless. The traits must have been available in the original bees or they became available through mutations during the adaptation period. Who is to say the same selection process cannot bring out in European bees the traits for survival with the new parasites? I would not rule it out. >>Maybe you can guess where this is headed: the healthier, more disease proof bees may already exist in Africa and Asia, in their original range. It may be that the European branch is an evolutionary dead end. I am not a betting man but I would speculate that it would be easier to select for parasite tolerance in European bees that to select African or Asian bees for: - good overwintering in our northern regions, - large spring population build-ups for the huge honey stores we are used to, - reduced absconding rate (EHB must be very desperate to abscond), - lowered defensiveness. As long as feral colonies survive in upstate NY forests and I get called every year for removal of very healthy colonies in suburbia, I would not write the European honey bee off. The feral selection process may be the best thing we have going. I am not sure our best breeding programs can select for all the key traits as well unless you get bands of beekeepers raising queens together locally in every region. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 09:54:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 12 May 2007 22:47:56 -0700, Dee Lusby wrote: >this because all races/strains looked at so far by >beekeepers using SC for such, do not seem to have a problem >with either mites, once their bees are regressed down in >size and queen shift is completed. Also, no one is >reporting problems continuing with secondary diseases >either. Beekeepers using persimmon lumber for their frame parts aren't reporting any problems with mites either. Then again, they aren't reporting much of anything, because there aren't enough of them to make very many reports. My point is that the above statement is only as significant as the pool of beekeepers doing the reporting (or non-reporting). My understanding is that they're all but completely insignificant. Can anyone show us evidence to the contrary? Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 11:57:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Breeding... In-Reply-To: <20070514.063725.1953.418253@webmail07.dca.untd.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline ----- Original Message ----- From: "waldig@netzero.com" >The survival traits they display today, such as lowered defensiveness, are all tied to surviving in temperate woodland conditions. How is lowered defensiveness tied to survival? I am not saying that they are not less defensive, nor am I saying that when moving to the forests of europe that they did not become less defensive, I am wondering why you feel this is a survival trait. Where is the advantage over more defensive bees (and there should be one, even if it is merely that it is more costly in terms of calories or resources to mount a spirited defense when it is needed less often). Given the reputation of A.m.m. as being rather cross, I suspect that much of the gentility we see may be the result of our tinkering through the millenia. I have no data to that effect, but hey, a little speculation never hurts, as long as it is labled as such. >Who knows > but > the selection process at the fringe must have been ruthless. Natural selection is *always* ruthless. There is not thought to it, therefore no compassion, no ruth as it were. > Who is > to > say the same selection process cannot bring out in European bees > the > traits for survival with the new parasites? I would not rule it > out. Nor should you. Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 14:30:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Breeding... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith wrote: >How is lowered defensiveness tied to survival? Lowered defensiveness in some strains could have arisen by 1) Lack of need. If a trait is not needed, natural selection tends to let it die out. Obviously, a high degree of defensiveness is costly to the organism and if there is no payoff for it, it causes that organism to be less fit since it allocates energy to a behavior that has no payoff. So an organism that doesn't waste energy on defensiveness could be *better fit*. 2) Reallocation. If hoarding is more important for survival, a successful colony might allocate more bees to foraging than to defense. In an area where the chief obstacle to survival is a six month dearth and very low temperatures, excellent hoarding and the ability to generate heat from the calories would give an edge to survive. But they might have fewer guards on duty as a result a higher percentage of bees being out foraging. You have to view these factors as all *interconnected*. Like, what makes a good car? Is it fuel efficiency, handling, safety, etc.? They are all interconnected and one can't be improved without some sacrifice of another. So, the colony must balance factors like foraging efficiency, ability to select a proper nest, defensiveness, ability to return from long distances, mating attractiveness, swarming, hygienic behavior, the list goes on. It simply isn't good enough to be very good in only one thing: the hive has to be really good in the things that matter for the environment in which they are trying to survive. Different conditions will require different coping mechanisms. If there are flowers year round, hoarding is not so important. If the bees are well protected then defensiveness is not so important. They may not lose a trait altogether, but they may become much better at other things. People have bred bees that were better at pollinating. Now we are trying to get bees that can handle a predator against which they don't have a good defense. This may or may not even be possible. You can't breed pigs to fly, for example. As we have said, perhaps the colony selection process is actually selecting less virulent mites. One has to establish attainable goals in breeding. When you talk about leaving bees alone and letting nature takes its course, you might remember that WE are a product of evolution, that evolution is still going on and we are a major force in it. Of course, with that realization comes responsibility for the the many species that are now under our care. We have certainly proved our ability to muck things up. Warning: some of my ideas are sheer speculation, so if anyone has a problem with what I am saying, it's just Sci Fi, OK? pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 15:38:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: The latest on CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Posted last Saturday at MAAREC: http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/CCDPpt/PathogenSub-GroupProjectMay142007.pdf ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 20:41:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Breeding... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...are all tied to surviving in temperate woodland conditions. >How is lowered defensiveness tied to survival? My reasoning is simple. African bees are hyper when it comes to nest defense. In Africa, there are many more predators than in Europe and being hyperdefensive may be a requirement for survival there. However, when African bees kill a horse or a pet in the US it does absolutely nothing to boost their survival. On the contrary, it's an overreaction that needlessly destroys valuable resources (ie. worker bees by the thousands). While in Africa, worker numbers can be rebuild on good forage in season, this sort of blind defensiveness in Europe would deprive colonies of much needed workers in Europe's forests where significant forage availability is limited to spring. A colony facing a cold winter in the temperate European region, couldn't afford losing a significant portion of their workers if it wanted to survive the cold till spring. This African trait did not cut it in the old, cold European forests. >>I am not saying that they are not less defensive, nor am I saying that when moving to the forests of europe that they did not become less defensive... I believe the European environment was tough on the overdefensive colonies from Africa and selected for colonies with a more targeted defense. >>...the gentility we see may be the result of our tinkering through the millenia. Until the skeps, Europeans 'managed' colonies in scattered bee trees that they located in forests. The harvesting of honey was often rather unmanaged and brutal, often resulting in the kill of colonies. The dead colonies were naturally replaced by swarms the next season. In my opinion, bees' defense evolved more in the face of animal predators - rather than humans - that could be discouraged by a high level of defense. If man could be discouraged, his unsuccessful attempts at robbbing would have selected for a more defensive stock. But man was the most persistant predator who also found smoke and other aids to help his robbing. A colony robbed out by man in Europe in the 2nd half of season, stood very little chance of rebuilding and preping for winter. It's genetics would have been lost in the winter. Waldemar PS. The above are my personal opinions or speculation. :) I have no actual proof that this was how honey bees evolved in Europe. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:26:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Natural selection and evolution In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection A good read on natural selection and evolution. We are not evolving a new bee on small cell. We are not even naturally selecting. Nature naturally selects. We are breeders. Think Bob and his bonsai trees. You can make just about anything small by confinement. We are starting with a bee that has been around for millions of years, long before man. It has not changed much nor has it evolved into something new. Bees are bees and there are races of bees just as there are races of mankind. But the basic person or bee has the same genetic makeup with variations in how the genes are expressed. When you select for a trait you are selecting from something that already exists, so you are not creating something new. Can a tropical bee survive in cold? Remember that we have gone through many ice ages over the million year span of the bee, so it was not always tropical. It has demonstrated that it can survive in a variety of climates. The genes are there. As far as stinging, that is only degree and has nothing to do with a new or different bee. I have had Italians that would give AHB a run for their money. The beekeepers in Mexico and the Southwest US are breeding AHB for gentleness, just the opposite of its supposed survival trait. It is the same basic bee. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 18:08:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Breeding... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 14/05/2007 22:05:16 GMT Standard Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: <> I wonder; many parts of Africa have very seasonal rainfall with long dry seasons. There must surely be months on end with little or no forage in some parts of the continent. How defensive are the bees there? Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 09:48:34 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Apimondia 2007 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That magical date of 15 May has almost arrived. By now you should have = registered for Apimondia 2007 in Melbourne to take advantage of the = earlybird registration. If not, go to www.apimondia2007.com and hop online to register. Look forward to catching up with beekeepers from the Bee-L list in = Melbourne in September. Trevor Weatherhead Organising Committee AUSTRALIA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:59:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Clarification of open mating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'd like to have something cleared up if that is possible. I hear talk about open mating the queens. It is my understanding that the queens go to drone congregation areas different for those that the drones from the same bee yard (area) go to. Am I mistaken in that understanding. And, if they go to different congregation areas, how far away should the drone producing colonies be from the queen mating colonies? From what I have read, most queen producers set up their drone yards at least 1/4 of a mile away from their mating yards, and some even a mile. What is the concensus out there? Dee Lusbe talks about using her own queens for requeening. Dee, how do you set up your drone colonies with your mating nucs? Mike in LA --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 21:01:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Breeding... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter L. Borst wrote: > Keith wrote: > >> How is lowered defensiveness tied to survival? >> I was sort of asking tongue in cheek. It gets lost in the email translation. > Lowered defensiveness in some strains could have arisen by > > 1) Lack of need. > > 2) Reallocation. > You have to view these factors as all *interconnected*. Indeed - though as a more direct mechanism, I suspect that the lack of need is the major player. As you say - if it costs an organism to have a trait, but there i no survival advantage to said trait, it's expression in the population tends to decrease. Many bacteria do the same thing as some resistance factors are quite metabolically expensive. When the antimicrobial is present, having said factor is favored even if it is expensive. Drop the pressure of the antimicrobial and the population rapidly ceases to express the trait, as the bugs that spend that energy reproducing eventually dominate. The other big thing to note here is that this is a population thing, not an individual organism or colony thing. Sometimes folks get this confused (not that you do, but we have been down that road on this and other lists.) > > It simply isn't good enough to be very good in only one thing: the hive has > to be really good in the things that matter for the environment in which > they are trying to survive. Yes - life is a balance sheet. Being a superstar at a single thing rarely gets you anywhere (unless you are a human and that trait involves throwing a baseball at ludicrous speeds. Roger Clemens is getting 7K per pitch under his new contract.) Being "good enough" at a great many things tends to get you much farther ahead. > As we have said, perhaps the colony selection process is > actually selecting less virulent mites. If varroa follows common host-parasite interaction dynamics over time, and there is no reason to suspect it will not, then we are breeding both mite-resistant bees, and less virulent mites. > When you talk about leaving bees alone and letting nature takes its course, > You realize I didn't say anything of the sort right? > you might remember that WE are a product of evolution, that evolution is > still going on and we are a major force in it. Yep, corn, marijuana, most dog breeds, domestic cattle, chickens, white tailed deer, racoons etc. Our foot prints on other species are legion. Some would not exist without us as a pressure that makes their particular phenotype advantageous. Bananas anyone? > Of course, with that > realization comes responsibility for the the many species that are now under > our care. I would argue that they all better all be under our care, as opposed to being merely there for our use, but then I am a bid of a tree-hugger, comes with the job. Standard caveat about speculation applies. Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 21:11:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit wrote: > >Were these the only 3 acres of woodland and therefore nest sites available >to the bees or were they in the middle of a much larger area of woodland? The story was written in 1909 at a time when the passing of great forests was believed to reduce the feral population. But the bees simply adapted to what nest sites were available in the environment in using voids located in smaller growth trees. The area mentioned in the article was in Illinois where forested areas still existed throughout the state at that time. My friend keeps asking, and I keep declining to help him remove some 4 plus colonies said to be living in an abandon church. So the ½ mile spacing rule seems not to be a rule the bees want to follow. 1909: "Bee hunting is a thing of the past, but the bees are here more plentiful than ever. The old-time colony with 50 and 100 pounds of honey is not found. They have been compelled to use the smaller trees for storehouses, which soon become overstocked and a new home must be found. Thus the colonies are smaller and more numerous." Best Wishes, Joe ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 21:34:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Bob, …wouldn't >just installing some Russian bees in large cell hives be easier? I tried Russians. And on the system I use with no treatments for varroa, the mite population soared in these bees same as any other strain, and ending in crashing. Russians in my area tend to swarm several times a season, and shutdown in the summer clogging the broodnest, and lacking a pre flow buildup can put a hurt on fall surplus. For my area, I need a bee that doesn’t do the things mentioned above. They may work fine in other locations having one strong single flow, but they were not suited for my location, queens tending to shut down everytime a cloud passed over. Joe writes: >> But what I have found was >that being on small cell allowed me to drop all the treatments. Bob writes: > In my opinion this is the part which causes you and Dee problems. You both >surely can see how complicated beekeeping problems are today. >varroa,tracheal mites,Virus, nosema ceranae, chalkbrood,EFB & AFB. Those of >us which keep bees for a living fight the above all the time. What, you mean to say that there are NO methods in place to deal with the above problems without using treatments? This is where you make the mistake of others and assume more than I am saying. Small cell, collecting ferals and breeding are key for my dropping treatments. But diseases, when they occasionally occur are handled by using NON chemical methods. My queen permit has a statement of my opperation: "All colonies were successfully maintaining low levels of varroa mites through the use of cultural controls". Why then, should these claims of dropping treatments cause me problems with you, and not the Pa State Apiarist who inspected all my colonies? Usually when >something sounds to good to be true I have sound my gut feelings were >correct. I assume here that you believe it is "impossible" to keep bees alive without using treatments? Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Derry, PA “Bees Gone Wild Apiaries” FeralBeeProject.com http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************