From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:59:45 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84EE949098 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFkpJ3016612 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:17 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0705C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 260569 Lines: 6082 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 20:16:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Clarification of open mating In-Reply-To: <806750.23378.qm@web53412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike: Dee Lusbe talks about using her own queens for requeening. Dee, how do you set up your drone colonies with your mating nucs? Reply: I don't play that game with little mating nucs and drone colonies. That's for others to have fun with. I set up the old way! Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 20:32:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Breeding... In-Reply-To: <20070514.134218.1708.108000@webmail13.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar: when African bees kill a horse or a pet in the US it does absolutely nothing to boost their survival. On the contrary, it's an overreaction that needlessly destroys valuable resources (ie. worker bees by the thousands). Reply: Now wait a minute here this is nothing new and has been recorded in beekeeping magazines for years prior to so-called african arriving. So take the tag off since it applies to all races and strains of bees as previously written since ABJ, ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture, and Bee World have been around, and that is a long time. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 23:12:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Shouldn't have used the term "native", how about "current strain"? I don't think you are implying that the Aussies have the same genetics are you? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Slade" To: Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 4:53 AM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Varroa Free Bees > > But you don't have any native stock, any more than the Australians do. > > Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 20:36:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric: About what size pool of SC beekeepers would you consider adequate may I ask? Dee- ____________________________________________________________________________________Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 22:26:52 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...I would say to be considered the job was reasonably done well. Thus as > time passes and technology advances then things have to be redone and new > end results arrived at We are constantly re-evealuating previous conclusions. > like what actually were those fallen things from the sky? I have no idea what you are saying here. > As for what is native Allen,well more ancient things are being found in > various places, so one never knows how the books will end up as older > settlements are found in the Americas. True. However we have to go with the evidence at hand, while keeping in mind it may not be complete. Of course, one can decide to pursue a fanciful interpretation, dwell on an ambiguous text, or even depend on psychic powers to arrive at conclusions, however, at that point, most of us tune out. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 22:35:49 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I would like to see the evidence that leads one to assume bees “tend to > separate their colonies by about half a mile”. I would think that this is > within the chance of random for feral colonies to appear to be spread out > by that distance. Exactly. I don' t think the bees do this deliberately. I suspect it is a result of the climate, terrain, flora, and also the health and swarming tendancy of the bees in question. > There are many references that dispute this assumption There are many factors which can be expected to cause exceptions, one way and another. It may be a useless generalization. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 00:22:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: The latest on CCD In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE09211389218A@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would any individual who has reputable credentials related to the work being carried out at the present trying to identify the causative factors of CCD please indicate to what level is it believed that this (CCD) is a reoccurring event. I ask as on many occasions a statement that this is the case is made. Would it be more correct to indicate that depopulation of bee colonies have occurred before - the reason(s) in the past not being identified - and at each occurrence the underlying causative factors may/may not have changed. Reading the last report, I note that it suggested that problems could have been occurring for three or more years. It would be interesting to read an indication of how many years more than three. Related to the testing for residual amounts of pesticides present in corpses, wax, pollen etc. Since a statement of precaution mentions a class of pesticides that rapidly diminish after original intoxication - samples that show presence may not indicate original amounts present. I would be most interested to read on protocols that avoid the problems where pesticide levels present in samples would not necessarily be accurate indications of levels present at time of intoxication. I am not interested in arguments over numbers of bee colonies that have died - but in having information that indicates the root of the cause of so called CCD. Many regards, Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 00:30:30 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Tracheal Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote and asked Jose what the chances are that we could get an up to date evaluation of current US stock. >> We have been discussing tracheal mites again on BEE-L, and I'm wondering >> when that tracheal mite susceptibility study was done, and if there are >> plans to repeat it in the future? > The chart that you refer to was produced from evaluations of emerging > brood from breeder colonies in the spring of '99 (published in ABJ, > 2000). A formal rerun of colonies from the same anonymous sources was > never planned and probably would not be publishable in peer-reviewed > journals. However, I have tested through time, colonies from two > sources in that study, and from a few new ones. Given that the sources > are to remain anonymous, I can say the following and you can quote me on > it: > > One source has continued to show uniform resistance. One source > continues to show very large variability (spanning the range between the > resistant and susceptible standards). One new source shows high > variability and no improvement. And, one new source has surprisingly > gone from showing fairly uniform resistance to being highly variable. > The bottom line is we still have unresolved issues with genetic > susceptibility to tracheal mites. > > One anecdote to point out that beekeepers may not even be compensating > for susceptibility with appropriate treatments. A beekeeper checked two > extra queens and attendants for tracheal mites received from a queen > breeder in the southeast. Both queens and some of the attendants had > tracheal mites. In order for that to happen, in my experience, tracheal > mites need to be at moderate to high levels in mating nucs, and this > should not be happening in 2007, especially in the south! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 08:46:48 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Clarification of open mating In-Reply-To: <806750.23378.qm@web53412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike > It is my understanding that the queens go to drone congregation areas different for those that the drones from the same bee yard (area) go to. Basically correct, but the drones in any particular bee yard will already be quite a mixture, due to drifting. > how far away should the drone producing colonies be from the queen mating colonies? This is a slightly different ball game... A breeder using open mating will attempt to saturate a naturally occurring isolated mating area with drones, probably setting out several rings of drone producing colonies. Because there is good coverage of drones, many of the matings will be 'within strain' this must not be confused with inbreeding... Inbreeding is caused by the number of lines being used to produce queens and drones not being high enough (it is further complicated in US as the Italian race that is favoured has a low mating frequency). If you are setting up small numbers of drone producing colonies, I cannot think of a distance that might give any advantage in mating. I suspect the approach of a 'queen raiser' would be different (less drone colonies) to that of a breeder as the main interest would be getting the queen mated, not getting the queen mated within strain. http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/matingbehaviour.html http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/avm.html http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/multiplematings.html Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 07:35:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] Clarification of open mating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This message was originally submitted by gsferg@SWEETTIMEAPIARY.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material -----Original Message----- From: George Fergusson [mailto:gsferg@sweettimeapiary.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 5:35 AM To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Clarification of open mating Mike, if you haven't already, read this paper "Drone Mother Colonies- Numbers and Positioning": http://www.agric.nsw.gov.au/reader/1140 George- --------------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 11:18:15 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Breeding... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I wonder; many parts of Africa have very seasonal rainfall with long dry seasons. There must surely be months on end with little or no forage in some parts of the continent. How defensive are the bees there? I am not very familiar with forage conditions in Africa between rainy seasons. I have read AHB will readily abscond and move to more favorable locations when there is a nectar shortage. This is another trait that was not useful in Europe due to its nectar flow patterns and long, cold winters. Some say this disadvantage keeps AHB from spreading northward in North America, too. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 01:35:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Susceptible? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > So far, this debate has been driven by ignorance and questionable > assumptions about the Australian bees, and ignorance of the levels of > susceptibility in US stock. As I recall, the only "debate" was when you took exception to a reasonable concern voiced by a respected researcher in a magazine article in a posting on Bee-L, rather than in a letter to the editor of the magazine or a direct e-mail to the author of the article. ("Australian Stock vs. US Stock" Allen Dick, Tue, 8 May 2007 Bee-L) But rather than tossing around loaded phrases like "questionable assumptions" and "ignorance", consider the recourse possible for the beekeeper in each case. With a US (or Canadian) supplier, one can call up the producer, and ask why they shipped queens or packages that are susceptible to tracheal mites at all. One can even be indignant, and demand some form of partial refund for substandard products sold at full price. Many beekeepers are in areas where the use of grease patties is just not a very good idea at all any more, due to the small hive beetle. (If enough beekeepers started doing this, the producers would shape up in short order.) With an Australian supplier, one has no recourse, as it is obvious that he cannot test for resistance to a pest he gleefully advertises that he does not have. One cannot expect him to provide any level of assurance. So, just as "One Cannot Control That Which One Does Not Measure" (R) one cannot breed for that which one cannot test. So, regardless of what anecdotal information might be offered about the apparent "tracheal mite resistance" of Aussie bees versus bees from the US or elsewhere in this season or that, the essential point is inescapable - Aussie bees will only be tracheal mite resistant by >>>chance<<<, and can never be resistant by overt breeding. (They could be in a 100% AI shop using imported genetics with a closed breeding environment, but this sort of bee is much like a unicorn. We can all imagine one, but we will likely never live to see one.) Now I dunno about you, but I want tough bees. I want bees that will not only laugh at tracheal mites, I want bees that are so tough they will take your wallet and watch. I don't want bees with stripes so much as bees with gang tattoos. It is tough to bee a bee these days. We don't need no wimpy bees. Yes, it is shameful that bees sampled from US suppliers several years ago were all over the map in terms of tracheal mite resistance, but this is a very different situation to the one in Australia, where it seems that random chance alone is the sole factor governing tracheal mite resistance. If you are going to accept pure random chance as a reasonable way to provide tracheal mite resistance, why are you so worried about a few US bee producers who make no effort to breed and test for tracheal mite resistance? Aren't these US producers ALSO relying on random chance? But you know better in your heart, hence your critical comments about US producers. You expect more from the US producers. You know that they CAN test for the trait. It is clear that Australian producers can't. If there is any "ignorance" in this discussion, it is ignorance of the basic reasonable expectations one can have about bees from areas "free" of the pests and diseases we face. These bees are "bringing a knife to a gunfight", and the beekeeper who relies on them is putting himself between a bullet and a target. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:13:27 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Breeding... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Now wait a minute here this is nothing new and has been recorded in beekeeping magazines for years prior to so-called african arriving. All right. EHBs can also kill a horse although AHB will send out many times more suicide stingers and keep attacking for a longer distance. Why keep commiting suicide on a fleeing predator? There was a report from Florida where they found pounds of bees inside a horse. It's possible the report was exaggered I suppose... In any case, killing a horse (unless it's rubbing up against a beehive) is poor predator/threat recognition and, as such, an undesirable trait. If thousands of workers are sacrificed to kill a horse, it leaves the colony in a much worse shape should a bear come along the next day or should the winter's onset be a couple of weeks away. On the other hand, bees do not study and catalog mammalian species. Perhaps, by default, they can only respond to any large, smelly, dark mammal that get's a little too close to the colony by attacking. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 08:59:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: The latest on CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, A very interesting article is in the May issue of BEE Culture by Dr. Sanford. Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) an update by Dr. Malcom T. Sanford ( May 2007 Bee Culture) Dr. Sanford from the article says: " New documents at the Mid Atlantic Apiculture Research and Extension Consortium include the following advice:" ( and source for the below information) Then lists five different points & the *why*. Taken word for word from the article pg. 17 & 18. 5. "If you observe high levels of varroa mites ,treat then using soft chemicals ,such as Apiguard, Apilife Var, or Miteaway 2. We DO NOT recommend the use of oxalic acid, or homemade hard chemical mixtures" (The DO NOT is in capital letters) "Why?" "Colonies experiencing CCD have been shown to have kidney (Malpighian tubule) problems similar to those seen in colonies treated with hard chemicals. There are some reports that oxalic acid may damage bee Malpighian tubules" Early reports are starting to come my way Peter that beekeepers using old comb from CCD deadouts are starting to see problems ( or at least a big difference between performance between boxes reused and boxes of comb from NON CCD deadouts). The next few months will tell the tale if CCD is going to reoccur or simple go into beekeeping history. My personal opinion is CCD is not over yet! I also would suggest all beekeepers claiming to have CCD to visit the MAAREC site Aaron posted and look at the two pictures as true CCD deadouts. 7 frames of sealed brood with a tiny handful of bees. As the caption at the site says. It should be obvious these hives had a large population of bees not long ago! I personally have never seen such a situation in my beekeeping . Perhaps the MAAREC people chose to take the worst CCD case to post the pictures. Don't know. If not then a real case of CCD should be easy to spot! Please take a look! Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 10:19:39 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: The latest on CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter I'm not sure how you would classify my credentials. I, for one, have said many times that CCD may be an old problem, never resolved, simply cycling. As mentioned before, reports of disappearing disease go back to the 1890s. Widespread and severe DD was documented in LA, TX and other states in the early 60s. Bill Wilson's 1979 paper indicates that something virtually identical to what we are now seeing happened in 1975, was reported in 27 states. Interesting side note - for each outbreak, whether small or large, the probable cause changed with the decade. In the early 60s it was thought to be nutrition. Then it was pesticides (low level, chronic exposures), then it became a genetic problem. Now its mites/pathogens/new pesticides/nutrition/unknown - depending on the beekeeper or researcher. As per pesticide residues -- the questions you ask are always a problem working after the fact. One has to work with what one has. A beekeeper who sustains a massive bee kill from a pesticide application has only bodies and hive components to sample - often collected far too many hours, days, weeks after the exposure event. Its part of the reason why litigating pesticide issues in court is so time consuming and expensive. Neither side has perfect data -- not even close to what a scientist would like to have. Best one can do is chain of evidence and appropriate sampling protocols. I worked with both NIST (aka Nat Bureau of Standards) on banking honey bee reference materials in the 1980s, and with NBS and EPA's pesticide lab on sampling and analytical sample preparation issues in the 70s (before the EPA lab closed its doors). Unfortunately, much of what we learned seems to have been forgotten. A word of caution about about web postings on CCD. Members of the CCD Working Group have published some joint statements - such as describing the symptoms of CCD. These have been reviewed and approved by all. However, we are all individuals and have our own perspectives on the issues, research needs, interpretation of data. Individual projects, studies, reports generally express the views of the authors and may, may not reflect the views of other investigators. Jerry ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 10:35:12 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: The latest on CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A very interesting article is in the May issue of BEE Culture by Dr. > Sanford. You can read it here. http://tinyurl.com/yqkmtq > Dr. Sanford from the article says: " New documents at the Mid Atlantic > Apiculture Research and Extension Consortium include the following > advice:" ( and source for the below information). Bee Culture's whole series on CCD is here: http://beeculture.com/content/ColonyCollapseDisorder.cfm > "Colonies experiencing CCD have been shown to have kidney (Malpighian > tubule) problems similar to those seen in colonies treated with hard > chemicals. There are some reports that oxalic acid may damage bee > Malpighian tubules" Dr. Sanford merely repeats the advisory, and does not comment. This is interesting. There is no indication from where these reports have come, or their credibility. Does anyone have any real information? Or is this just one of those speculative rumours that goes around and gains a following without any evidence? I found this: http://www.ento.psu.edu/MAAREC/pressReleases/FallDwindleUpdate0107.pdf, but it does not link the abnormality to any cause. There is mention of amoeba and nosema, but none of chemicals or treatments. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 11:53:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joe & All, Joe said about the Russian bees: > but they were not suited for my location, queens tending to shut down everytime a cloud passed over. I personaly never such shuting down( cloud passing over) . However the queens do shut down quickly in my experience to weather changes & floral changes. They seem to respond poorly to pollen patties and stimulate feeding but I only tested Russians from four sources and has been awhile. Also there were exceptions to the rule. Joe said: >This is where you make the mistake of others and assume more than I am saying. Small cell, collecting ferals and breeding are key for my dropping treatments. But diseases, when they occasionally occur are handled by using NON chemical methods. NON chemical methods? I guess you mean burning for AFB? What about EFB? What about nosema ? ( I treated another yard yesterday to clear up a presistant nosema). Are antibiotics OK? Or simply not needed once you are on small cell? I HIGHLY RECOMMEND BEEKEEPERS WHICH ARE SEEING NOSEMA IN THE U S TO RECHECK AFTER THE TREATMENT PERIOD TO MAKE SURE THE FUMIDL CLEARED THE NOSEMA. I guess I am going to have to send a nosema sample to Beltsville to see if nosema ceranae. Those beekeepers which never check or treat or even give nosema a second thought go back to sleep! When I was doing survivor research (zero treatments) I lost a *huge* number of hives. I simply moved hives *over ver threshold* to a yard to basically *die*. So many needed to be removed that I started removing from the experiment and then taking to a hospital treat yard to see if the effects of high ver load could be reversed ( chemical treatments )and then the hive moved into a production yard. Why? Because watching hives started from brood I could have sold or used in production hives ( several frames of brood and a high priced queen) die let alone not produce a honey crop or even be used in pollination is an expensive experiment. Leaving hives over ver threshold in a yard of survivors greatly reduces the other hives chances for survival because of robbing and reinfestation from drifting workers and drones. Moving a weak hive with a high ver load into a strong yard of *chemical strip protected from ver* hives would surely result in the strongest hives robbing out survivor colonies (learned the hard way even with a reduced entrance in some cases). What percent of your untreated method hives get culled or simply crash in a year? I am very familiar with the search for a ver tolerant bee. I have written articles for both Bee Culture and the American Bee Journal on the subject ( can post the issues if members are interested). My search BEFORE the introduction of the Russian bee was mostly a big waste of resources. With the addition of the Russian lines survivor bees became a reality . HOWEVER success was only judged by the hive being able to stay alive without treatment for ver. in the early days I actually gave a few survivor hives (removed from buildings) frames of honey so they would still be around in spring. All of the above about my personal search for survivor bees is documented in the BEE-L archives. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 17:39:58 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Beekeeper needed to remove a swarm in Westchester NY. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There is a swarm in a tree at Irvington High School in Westchester, NY, if anyone is close to this area, please call them for directions: 914-591-9591 914-557-7183 cell Feel free to mention my name. :) Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 15:27:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Oxalic acid damage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > "There are some reports that oxalic acid may damage bee Malpighian tubules" >This is interesting. There is no indication from where these reports have come, or their credibility. Does anyone have any real information? I don't know whether or not oxalic damages Malpighian tubules, but it would hardly seem implausible or even surprising. This system is analogous to the kidney and bladder system in animals, which is notably sensitive to oxalic acid, among other things. >> Malpighian tubules secrete primary urine, most of which is passed into the hindgut where water, ions and essential metabolites are reabsorbed before the fluid is excreted. * Oxalic Acid may damage the kidneys and cause kidney stones. * Exposure to Oxalic Acid may affect the nervous system. * Oxalic Acid is CORROSIVE and contact can severely irritate and burn the skin and eyes with possible eye damage. * Breathing Oxalic Acid can irritate the nose, throat and lungs causing coughing, wheezing and/or shortness of breath. * Exposure can cause headache, vomiting, stomach pain, weakness, seizures, coma and death. -- Peter L. Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 23:16:55 +0200 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Oxalic acid damage In-Reply-To: > "There are some reports that oxalic acid may damage bee Malpighian > tubules" Source please? \vov ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 18:14:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Varroa Free Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't have first hand knowledge but I think that Australian bees tend to be Italian based mongrels and thus probably not too dissimiliar to the general type of the US. Chris In a message dated 15/05/2007 12:24:35 GMT Standard Time, b_line@VERIZON.NET writes: Shouldn't have used the term "native", how about "current strain"? I don't think you are implying that the Aussies have the same genetics are you? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 19:34:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Clarification of open mating Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike Stoops wrote: >It is my understanding that the queens go to drone congregation areas different for those that the drones from the same bee yard (area) go to. > how far away should the drone producing colonies be from the queen mating colonies? > Hello Mike, Research has shown, drones prefer DCAs nearest to the hive and queens tend to prefer DCAs that are furthest away. Drones will use fly ways, to travel between different DCA’s to find the best one, but rarely flying more than 3 miles from the hive. The average distance that queen matings take place was found to be 1.25 miles from the hive. Best Wishes, Joe ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 21:17:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: >NON chemical methods? Correct! >I guess you mean burning for AFB? If a minor infection, I will cut out the comb and wash equipment adding new foundation, and requeen. I found no need to burn unless a sever case exists and in the spore forming stage, or to satisfy the state requirement to burn or treat. Treatments would only serve to prop up susceptible stock, making selection of AFB resistant stock extremely difficult. >What about EFB? Had only a occasional very minor case of EFB, and EFB clears up on its own. Queen gets one demerit. Treatments would serve to cover up the symptoms, making selection of EFB resistant stock extremely difficult. >What about nosema ? I consider nosema symptoms as a ‘indicator’ of a colony that is not up to par in some or several areas, any colony exhibiting nosema type symptoms is automatic slated for requeen. Treatments would serve to cover up the symptoms, making selection of nosema resistant stock extremely difficult. ( I >treated another yard yesterday to clear up a presistant nosema). Are >antibiotics OK? Or simply not needed once you are on small cell? I’m of the opinion, when there are options available that would eliminate the need to use pesticide or antibiotics they should be implemented. >What percent of your untreated method hives get culled or simply crash in a >year? I won’t play the numbers game. More important than percentages is; ‘what was the cause’ Of my separate apiary where I move best stock to I diagnosed my winter losses and all were clear cases of isolation starvation and in line with historic records of PA colony losses. Was a very tough year here in Western PA for forage. I knew the colonies were going into winter a bit light. But the plan was to shift stores around in February from any deadouts that occur. But as things occurred, the weather, combined with house building, left me no time to visit the yards till late winter. In my assessment yards where I take my woodland ferals, city ferals and cut outs, most of these perished. Just too bad a year for colonies in early growth stage to build up (most beekeepers in my area lost most, if not all of their package bees to starvation). Also, contributing in these yards were some mite pressure. This is why I like to regress the new stock and wean them into my other yards when varroa levels are reduced somewhat, and assessments are complete. Best Wishes, Joe ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 21:27:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Oxalic acid damage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Olda Vancata wrote: >Source please? This is not the source, but is related material. "Determination of oxalic acid and other organic acids in honey and in some anatomic structures of bees" Best Wishes, Joe ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 21:58:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: No Silver Bullets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joe, Thanks for an honest reply! I lost quite a few hives to the spring ice storm in Missouri. Temps went down low at a time we have not seen in years. Found bees with heads in cells when honey was only a few inches away. Actually happened the same way a couple decades ago. I think I could have saved most if the hives had been wrapped, if i had been in Missouri to feed in January or had used candy boards. The brood nest moved up to the lid but neglected stored honey on both sides in the box. The severe cold kept the bees in a tight cluster. Clusters were smaller than I like seeing because in my opinion of a lack of pollen last fall (caused by severe drought) and I believe I only got for the most part 2 (maybe 3) brood cycles of winter bees. I like to see at least four cycles which is what the old masters always recommended for successful wintering in my area. I was in the south during most of the ice storm (four in. ice on ground) and waited three days outside Dallas, Texas for the roads to be free of ice. I am not sure some did not die from ice covering the entrance and top vent hole. Dan't know as I only had one yard still iced when I returned. The ice was still four in. thick and I wore shoes with ice cleats to even approach the hives. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 22:39:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Oxalic acid damage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joe & All, >"Determination of oxalic acid and other organic acids in honey and in some anatomic structures of bees" I think the last paragraph gives insight into the way OA kills varroa. Which I never quite understood before. I take away from the following paragraph from the article that perhaps some internal damage might happen as we are using oa to kill the pest without hopefully no damage to the host. " After topical administration ,there is an interval of time in which the oa concentration in internal organs of the bee increases. This demonstrates that,when hives are treated against varroa ,oa penetrates through the bee Keratin and can produce the toxic effect" The above toxic effect means to me toxic to the varroa. Also explains to me why when people use OA the varroa drop happens later and not in the first say 24 hours. Hopefully we will learn a great deal from current CCD research about our bees in many areas! Interesting stuff Joe! Thanks for the post! Bob "Beekeeping is both simple and complicated at the same time" -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 00:32:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Media coming around on CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.latimes.com/features/food/la-fo-bees16may16,1,1952323.story?page=1&coll=la- headlines-food IT'S like a scene out of a Stephen King novel: One sunny day, the happy buzzing sound of bees doing that spring thing that bees do fades to silence. The bees disappear, abandoning hives and leaving flowers unpollinated, never to bear fruits and vegetables. Gradually, the world starves. That's the picture some are painting this spring in the wake of heavier than normal losses by beekeepers. "Unless someone or something stops it soon," one recent wire service story speculates, we could all be living on a "bread and water diet". But though that picture may have a certain apocalyptic appeal, it ignores some inconvenient facts. For starters, California's almond farmers — who grow the most bee-intensive crop in the country — are forecasting a record harvest this year. In fact, the latest estimate, released last week, is for this year's crop to be almost 20% bigger than last year's. The state's plum, peach and nectarine farmers say that their trees are full of fruit too. And so do Washington state cherry, pear and apple farmers. In fact, though pollination is still continuing for a few crops, so far there has been no indication that the honeybee disappearances will have any effect whatsoever on any harvest this year. This is certainly not to suggest that there is no problem, but only to say it's way too early to start stocking up on canned fruit. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 01:30:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ed_Geels?= Subject: Damage to Kidneys by Oxalic acid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Its not surprising to me that oxalic acid could be damaging the kidney functions of bees since it is well known that the main component of anti-freeze, ethylene glycol is extremely toxic to humans because it is metabolized to oxalic acid which then shuts down kidney function sometimes permanently and the person needs dialysis to stay alive. An acquaintance of mine accidentally swallowed a small amount of antifreeze by attempting to start the siphoning off of the antifreeze in a car radiator. He was in the hospital, a very sick man for several weeks and eventually his kidney function came back and he was taken off dialysis again. (See the following URL for toxic effects of ethylene glycol and oxalic acid: http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/Torres/index.php and also: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db= pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=16417036 Ed Geels ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 01:32:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: STR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What about the SO2 Is this not pertinant? >Since acetic is hard to find I wonder >if SO2 would disenfect? Would certainly be cheaper So the nucs procede as they should, the 5th was only 1d following No apperant mortality, appear recovered, weak A few are capped now, I imagine I'll see more tomorrow. I'll certainly watch at months end There is one interesting set of observations They say crow is best et warm, I certanly have humbled myself Killing _stupidly_ two Q's The 1st was normal, 2 q in 1 hive (damn invisable Russians) The other was unusual several ways The hive was a loss this spring, the cluster was OK but the Q was dead, not a suprize, she had a red dot So I swapped a shallow frame with her daugther and the vigin emerged ~apr3. This by far the earlist I have ever had a Q. I doubted she could get bred 1st drones ~may10 this year Well on may 11 I saw eggs & 1d & 2d larvae Said -5, may 6 started laying, just over 1 month, where did the drone come from? Or did it? The cappings will tell So looking again may12, to my suprize only eggs & 1d larvae At this point I had a brain lock, thought "I'll boost it" but failed the execution, I should have made them walk in So of course there are no new eggs, she was laying as well as she had warm, < 1frame eggs (3.5 part shallow) The next 3days the observation is same Diminishing eggs & 1d larvae, none older No QC from "this" brood, early QC is on imported frame (again from daughter, daughter is very slightly infected-STR) (The imported frame does not appear to have mortality) Imported frame has some older larvae, I'll check that it caps or dies I will inspect tomorrow, even in rain (forcast) I guess I won't get to see the cappings of this Q! Is it mortality or drone brood? Would they eat _every_ drone larvae? Does dying at 2d implicate the nurse bees? If the imported frame larvae cap implicates Q? (they were older larvae) Is this a symptom of X: absence of older larvae, (lots of eggs and young larvae present) and the same 2days later? I certainly regret killing that Q even if she was infected, as seems likely. Clearly no drones over-wintered, there must have been a few early ones I think I'll put new Q in but tape candy, only let her out when observations are done eg mortality, QC completion, more than 1 QC? Will she become infected?? Shortage of Q's in Ont -- suprize, suprize dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 08:32:54 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Clarification of open mating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Waggle wrote: > Research has shown...The average distance that queen matings > take place was found to be 1.25 miles from the hive. Which race of bee was used for the research? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 05:14:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Re; Varroa Free Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would also concur with the questions about the distribution of feral colonies. Do bees really space themselves out with some intentional consciousness of moving a certain distance from their neighboring hive or the mother colony from which they swarmed? It makes logical sense from a human standpoint, but in two cases I've seen two colonies in the same tree, one high and one low, and if they were really part of the same colony, then that was one for the record books. Further, I was called to remove to colonies from a storage shed. Ond colony was between the 2x4 studs on the East side and the other was between the studs on the South side of the shed. As I removed the siding, both were two, very distinct colonies. But they were separated by 10 feet and a corner. What was really interesting with these two colonies is that both oriented their comb in a North-South direction. The shed was set under the deep shade of large trees so I doubt sunlight/heat had anything to do with their choice. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 14:02:25 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Oxalic acid damage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit After quoting from Determination of oxalic acid and other organic acids in honey and in some anatomic structures of bees by María Jesús NOZAL, José Luis BERNAL, Luis Antonio GÓMEZ,Mariano HIGESb, Aranzazu MEANA > " After topical administration ,there is an interval of time in which the > oa > concentration in internal organs of the bee increases. This demonstrates > that,when hives are treated against varroa ,oa penetrates through the bee > Keratin and can produce the toxic effect" > Bob said > The above toxic effect means to me toxic to the varroa. I don't think it is necessarily so , they are talking about BEE KERATIN so I presume they must mean the toxic effects of oxalic acid on bees. Ruary ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 07:06:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: CCD and Absconding Genes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It is my understanding that one characteristic of AHB is it absconds. I assume, perhaps I shouldn't, that this is a genetic trait. Yes, no? So, I am wondering if the absconding gene of AHB has some how gotten into the general population of our queens? Could this be one of the reasons for CCD? Has anyone seen CCD bees leaving? What does that look like? Are they going out to forage and not coming back or are they leaving emasse? The photos in the latest report seen here on Bee-L look like abandoned brood. It looks like someone went into a healthy thriving hive and shook all of the adult bees out of it. How does this happen? Mark Berninghausen --------------------------------- Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 09:07:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Oxalic acid damage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ruary & All, >I don't think it is necessarily so , they are talking about BEE KERATIN so I presume they must mean the toxic effects of oxalic acid on bees. I also wondered Ruary but figured I would get a storm of emails if I even suggested the term toxic as used was referring to bees. I have seen OA used for over a decade in many areas of the U.S.. As Medhat pointed out only when the wrong mixture has been used has the OA been toxic to the bees. However what might be the effects of OA just below the toxic level? On brood? >From Dr. Ellis reply he sees no problem with using OA at certain intervals all season except as Randy Oliver pointed out the reduced efficacy. I think Ruary would agree that on other lists *we both have been on* caution has always been used when using OA on brood and some toxic kills of brood and eggs has happened. One very large commercial beekeeper said on another list ( North Dakota) never to treat a colony in fall with 3-5 frames of bees or less as the colony will lose half its workers by spring. Best to pass over those hives in fall. Again only passing on what was posted. A large commercial beekeeper using OA on thousands of hives gets a clear picture in my opinion over a beekeeper with a couple hives as far as the long and short term effects of a treatment. Also incorrect dosing is always a problem with hired help if using non approved methods. OA use is widespread in the U.S. and has been for the last several years in commercial operations. Partly because of people going around the country explaining its use (but also saying the method is not approved) and articles both on the net and in bee magazines explaining its use. Actually OA seems like a cheap and effective way to treat varroa especially in the broodless period . Hopefully the M. tubule damage is not caused by OA or the damage will be minor compared to ridding the hive of varroa. At times I wonder if the no treatments methods of Dee Lusby, Dann Purvis and Joe are not worth another look. All say all we are doing is creating a varroa mite capable of out lasting every chemical we toss at it long run and breeding bees in the U.S. which can not survive without treatments. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 12:35:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: Oxalic acid damage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding oxalic acid damage, will be interesting to hear how many times those beekeepers with CCD used oxalic to control mites over the course of the year. Did they use only once or many times? I like to use minimum treatments necessary to achieve results, I have found more is not always better with IPM. I found when using Apistan that the majority of the mite knockdown through my screen bottoms occurred within 4-5 days and I didn't need to leave on longer for my hives to survive winter. Jerry Wallace Atlanta, Ga ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 18:04:19 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Oxalic acid damage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quoting from the UK Department for the Environment Food and Rural Affairs booklet 'Managing Varroa' re Oxalic acid Quote Ideally needs broodless conditions, 90% average efficacy possible, sugarless solutions have poor efficacy,DANGER OF SIGNIFICANT COLONY WEAKENING (my emphasis), more scientific trials needed.... End Quote >From the above I would not hesitate to suggest that oxalic acid could have some toxicity to bees. (toxicity does not necessarily mean kill) Ruary ----- Original Message ----- > I also wondered Ruary but figured I would get a storm of emails if I even > suggested the term toxic as used was referring to bees. I have seen OA > used > for over a decade in many areas of the U.S.. As Medhat pointed out only > when > the wrong mixture has been used has the OA been toxic to the bees. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 13:21:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I first heard about Oxalic Acid about 5 years ago from a Canadian researcher/beekeeper. Well respected. He said it should be applied only during a broodless period because (1) unlike Formic, it would not kill mites inside a sealed cell and (2) the *same adults* should not be treated twice with Oxalic because for some part of the population it would interfere with their digestive process and kill adults. The recent work by Marion Ellis seems to contradict the latter, but he did not say 'all adults', but only 'some'. This guy, again about 5 years ago, was recommending the use of Formic to 'knock down' Varroa populations in August (if necessary, after testing with sticky boards) and then using Oxalic as a polish killer in early winter. He said it would generally let him avoid any spring treatment (after testing with sticky boards). This is in an area of Quebec 100 miles north of the US border, so much different conditions from those in most of the US. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 17:05:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Clarification of open mating Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Edwards wrote: >J. Waggle wrote: >> Research has shown...The average distance that queen matings >> take place was found to be 1.25 miles from the hive. >Which race of bee was used for the research? Not sure, I remember reading this particular refrence in an article written by Bee-L member M. Sanford. And also found here: http://www.agric.nsw.gov.au/reader/1140 I don't see a reference to the race of bee used. Best Wishes, Joe ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 17:24:24 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Media coming around on CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some "media" have been much better than others in their reporting, even to the point of putting articles online before the print edition of the magazine is printed. http://beeculture.com/content/ColonyCollapseDisorder.cfm Note that my article will not appear until the June issue, and the Underwood/vanEngelsdorp article will not appear until the July issue. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 18:23:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Gillmore Subject: Acetic Acid Fumigation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a question for anyone who may be familiar with Acetic Acid Fumigation. If some of the frames being treated have small amounts of capped honey and some pollen, will the fumes penetrate the pollen or wax cappings and be effective against any organisms that may be in the honey or pollen ? If not, what do you do with these frames? Destroy them ? .... try to clean the pollen and honey out prior to treatment ? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:02:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Clarification of open mating Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Drones & DCA’s - “the nearer the better!” ====== http://www.springerlink.com/content/k4503054483137v5/ “At 2 drone congregation areas (DCA) the relation between drone presence and distance to the apiary of origin was studied. Two methods were applied. First, drones were caught and marked on the DCA and later recovered in the colonies. Second, drones which were marked before at the apiary (in the colonies) were subsequently recaptured on both DCAs. The 2 methods led to identical conclusions. Consistently in each of 3 years the majority of the drones from each of the 3 apiaries was found at the nearer DCA. There was, however, no direct correlation between the flight distances and the ratio of drones visiting from each apiary.” ====== Let me start by saying “perhaps”,,,, :) With drone mating flights taking 20-30 minutes, and an average of 2-4 flights per day. It would make sense that a drone would want to visit only a few nearby DCAs, and choosing closer DCA’s to conserve energy and increase the length of time spent in the chosen DCA. While queens tending to fly directly to the DCA, mating on average 1.25 miles away perhaps to reduce the risk. This is relatively a small area in which the drones and queens are choosing to mate. With DCAs tending to form at intersections of linear land features such as the a row of trees and a stream etc., and queens mating at an average of 1.25 miles from the nest, while drones tending to choose the nearest DCA‘s. The implications for woodland feral breeding separation from domestic colonies in the farm lands cannot be discounted. Woodland feral drones perhaps choosing DCA’s related to the nearby linear land features such as where ridgelines meet, and drones in the lowlands which tend to be domestic beekeeping areas choosing DCA’s related to nearby linear land features found in the lowlands. Considering this, you could potentially have a relatively decent degree of separation between woodland feral matings and domestic honeybees in an area of forest relatively small in size. Perhaps, the so called total “isolation” is really not needed. Best Wishes, Joe feralbeeproject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:24:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: CCD and Absconding Genes In-Reply-To: <600447.21335.qm@web32101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark writes: It is my understanding that one characteristic of AHB is it absconds. I assume, perhaps I shouldn't, that this is a genetic trait. Yes, no? Reply: Not as far as I know and I run about 900 so-called by others. But my bees stopped swarming/absconding when I housel positioned by the way and haven't had a problem since. So something to unformity in putting in foundations I would think........ Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 22:36:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Acetic Acid Fumigation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike & All, >I have a question for anyone who may be familiar with Acetic Acid Fumigation. I have never used Acetic acid and all I know has came from David Hackenberg or friends across the pond. Mike I would contact Jeff Pettis or Barton Smith at the Beltsville Bee Lab and ask your questions. They were involved with the tests on the 400 hives of David Hackenberg. David is the first to use acetic acid from the feedback I have heard (commercial beekeepers unlisted hot line). What I have heard ( maybe so or maybe not) is that David was going to have all his CCD comb radiated and the lab suggested trying the acetic acid. David approached me at the Austin ABF to see if I wanted to come in on the comb radiating. I have not spoke to David since Austin. I told David I had replaced all my comb which had ever had fluvalinate or coumaphos used so unless a new issue comes up I think my comb is fine. David's CCD seems to me to be virus related but only my opinion. I base my opinion on the fact when he sterilized his comb and dropped in a package he saw his old bees again. Not so with the untreated other 200 boxes in the test. Other CCD thoughts: Some CCD *seems* to be like what French beekeepers saw in France with imidicloraprid. What I have heard is that packages installed in those boxes are thriving without sterilization. Honey & pollen was reused. Which leads me to believe (only an opinion) that in those cases the adult missing bees died in the field from pesticides. The thing which struck me strange when I looked at those CCD brood comb pictures at the MAAREC site was the CCD folks said the only bees missing were the adult bees. To me almost ALL the bees were missing in the two CCD brood frame pictures! I said in an earlier post to Mark that AHB genetics *could cause* a large scale absconding but not a hypothesis I personally buy into as the reason for last years CCD. Although the subject has been discussed at CCD team meetings I have been told. AHB genetics are certainly in most yards. We heard at our meeting tonight about a hive so hot in our area whenever the lid was raised the bees boiled out. The two club beekeepers said they worked the hive in carhart heavy coveralls with all holes duck taped. I think the finally depopulated the hive after many attempts at requeening failed. I would have depopulated the hive right away and tossed the box on the truck instead of spending a summer jacking with those nasty bees! Get rid of those drones! It *seems* to me the CCD team has to figure out the solution for each CCD beekeeper. Very complicated situation. >From speaking with Lance S. (West coast) and David H. (East coast) they both had symptoms similar and fit the CCD description posted at the MAAREC site. Strong hives and then frames of brood and no bees in a couple weeks. We had our Midwestern Beekeepers Assn. meeting tonight and none of our members had deadouts as just described. However winter loss reported was higher than normal. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 23:34:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Oxalic acid damage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I've been waiting to see if anyone could cite actual data re oxalic damage to Malpighian tubules. Still waiting... Here are a few things I've learned since I wrote my article on OA in ABJ: 1. The paper by Nozal (Apidolgie 34: 181-188) cited earlier clearly demonstrated that OA is absorbed through the bees' cuticle, and makes its way to various organs. That study, when I read it some time ago, helped answer a few vexing questions, but not all. The data indicate that 6 microliters of 10% OA in water applied to a bee resulted in a brief spike in OA in the hemolymph at 2 hrs, after which it returned to normal. There was nearly no change in the amount of OA in the rectum, malpighian tubles, or digestive tract. 2. To my knowledge, the mode of action of OA on the mite is still not known, although studies by Ellis and Aliano demonstrate that it is quite toxic to the mite when topically applied. However, there are reports that OA syrup fed to bees (when they could be induced to eat it) also killed mites. The fact that OA gets into bee hemolymph suggests that a mode of action is likely by mites ingesting low pH hemolymph (since oxalic salts don't kill mites). However, in practice, OA dribble kills mites for about a week. Nozal's paper suggests that the OA in bee hemolymph spikes at 2 hours. Go figure! 3. The effect of the sugar in the OA solution is apparently as a humectant, which allows the acid to be absorbed more effectively through the bees chitinous "skin." Glycerine will do the same. Plain water when it's humid enough. 4. Several European studies found that spring buildup was slightly reduced temporarily in colonies that received winter treatment with oxalic, indicating that there was some sort of sublethal effect on the bees. 5. Anecdotal reports to me demonstrate that overapplication (too much per treatment) of OA can be frankly harmful to colonies. DO NOT EXCEED THE RECOMMENDED DOSAGES. Gregorc (Apidologie 35:453-460) found that OA caused increase cell death in bee larva gut epithelial cells. 6. Dr. Ellis's experience, anecdotal reports, and my own experience indicate that colonies can handle the recommended dosages well, even with multiple summer treatments. Anecdotal reports that they don't handle multiple winter treatments well. I have not seen any studies as to the effect of nectar or pollen availability on sublethal effects of OA. More studies need to be performed re prolonged wintering of OA-treated bees. 7. There are concerns about overuse of oxalic. First, that residues may build up in colonies (although I have seen data to the contrary). Where OA is used extensively and repeatedly in some European countries, some suspect it of causing harm to colonies. 7. The organic acids are rough chemicals! They clearly have side effects. However, the CCD team has not linked OA use to colony collapse, nor have I in my own operation. Oxalic is not a miracle drug--it is simply a relatively safe "natural" chemical alternative to synthetics. I recommend that it be used only if needed, in a comprehensive IPM program. Use it carefully (where legal), and do not overuse it. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 16:51:32 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: Clarification of open mating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even given the clues contained in Joe's listing, after many years of = queen rearing, with drone mother colonies placed at distances up to = 4.7km from the mating apiary where the nucs are situated (my property), = I still have no idea where the DCAs are! In fact, I can honestly say = that in 30 years of beekeeping I have never seen or heard one, although = I have been told that the sound of many drones flying is quite = noticeable. Does anybody on the list have any practical methods of how to find them? Peter Detchon in Western Australia ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 07:07:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Clarification of open mating Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit J. Waggle wrote: >Drones & DCA�s - �the nearer the better!� >http://www.springerlink.com/content/k4503054483137v5/ Following this link, you will find that in order to read the paper, you must pony up 32 bucks. However, my access to the University library permits me to read journal articles. In this one they say > The drone’s strategy to choose the nearer DCA would lead to a genetic over-representation of nearby colonies and increase genetic differences among the DCA’s within the region. In the context of this “drone clumping†*the choice of virgin queens among DCA’s seems to be of great significance*. < Basically, this proves drones are lazy, which we already knew. It is therefore up to the queen to seek out drones of non-local type by flying farther away. Nature has evolved this system to prevent inbreeding and excessively localized populations. This is why serious breeders set up mating yards in extreme isolation. And why it took a very long time for honey bees to develop racial types such as the carnica, ligustica, etc. These do not occur in isolated pockets but over large geographical areas. I really don't think you will see very much difference in bees "over on the next ridge". By the way, somebody recently asked if the aggressive behavior of African bees (scuts) was genetic. The African bee comes with a whole distinct set of genetically coded characteristics, these are all heritable as shown by its sweep across the Americas. It is smaller, has a shorter development time, is generally more aggressive, more apt to swarm and abscond. These and other factors contribute to its dominance in whatever area it enters. The drones may fly faster but I seriously doubt it is because they are smaller. These bees are just more vigorous overall than the European types. Unfortunately, they don't hoard as much honey, and they don't like beekeepers. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 11:33:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Clarification of open mating Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Drones & DCA’s - “the nearer the better!” Does anyone have tips on locating DCA's? Especially in flat, suburban areas. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 07:38:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: reproductive isolation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On the subject of drones and mating, one has to take into consideration the fact that different honey bee types may maintain reproductive isolation by mating at *different times of day* (1) or *different times of the season* (2) (1) In south India there are two distinct colour morphs of cavity nesting honey bees: the yellow Plain morph and the black Hill morph which are collectively known as Apis cerana. We show that the Hill morph is associated with a widely distributed mitochondrial haplotype that is present throughout mainland populations of south east Asian A. cerana. In contrast, the Plain morph, which is apparently confined to low to moderate elevations in India and Sri Lanka, is associated with a unique mitochondrial haplotype that is not present in other cavity nesting honey bees. We further show that in a region of sympatry (Bangalore, Karnataka State) the *drone mating flight times* of the two colourmorphs barely overlap. Evidence for reproductive isolation between two colour morphs of cavity nesting honey bees (Apis) in south India B.P. Oldroyd, et al. Insectes Sociaux, Volume 53, Number 4, December 2006 (2) In 1966, an ecotype of honey bees in France was described as adapted to the local floral phenology. Colonies in the Landes region had a bimodal peak in annual colony brood cycle, one peak in early summer and one in autumn. This brood cycle was determined to be of genetic origin. Conservation of a locally adapted population of Apis mellifera L.: ethology, morphology, and molecular markers James P. STRANGE , et al. PhD Dissertation ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 07:40:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Hives ferment a yeasty brew, attract beetle pest In-Reply-To: <000401c79800$93e9bf20$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-05/ps-hfa051607.php Research on the hive beetle and how the alarm signal (including yeast) attracts it to the hive. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 08:20:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD and Absconding Genes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Mark writes: It is my understanding that one characteristic of AHB is it absconds. AHB as always been known to abscond but mostly due to lack of nectar & pollen or even to escape pests. When doing the ABJ article on AHB in Florida ( March or April 2006) what the Florida Apiary inspection saw (besides hot bees) was AHB sending out a huge number of very small swarms. Up to 16 I was told in a season. The beekeeper at the root of the Florida problem had yards of small AHB hives from swarms he had mostly caught. His bees had stung to death an animal next door.I think a horse from memory. His situation from my understanding involved mostly AHB because he was collecting every swarm he could and AHB small swarms were in great numbers that season .The Florida apiary people I interviewed said they worked to requeen his hives with EU queens but about as fast as they got his hives EU queens he had got other AHB swarms. I do not know what the situation is today as my article was done over a year ago but at that time the Florida apiary dept. did not have a hard time finding AHB swarms. A wall in the lab was lined with AHB sample jars either already tested or waiting for testing. As I said in the article the bees which tested positive for AHB looked like our regular Italian bee and to me seemed no smaller from looking at the sample in solution in a jar. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 10:58:42 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Claude Hachey Subject: Mating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With all this talk of DCA's, just wondering if anyone knows if an artificially inseminated queen takes mating flights? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 08:54:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Oxalic acid damage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, >6. Dr. Ellis's experience, anecdotal reports, and my own experience indicate that colonies can handle the recommended dosages well, even with multiple summer treatments. I guess with the intense high level of testing being done by Penn State, Military and the research labs we will see before long if the above is harming our bees. I hope to learn a great deal from the CCD testing. Most bee magazine articles wait in line for about three months before publication and articles for bee research takes longer for publication. It could be close to a year for new things learned by the CCD team to be in print. I have got respect for the three beekeepers Marion, Nick & Randy but what we are talking about will be learned from real researchers in a lab and not by observing hives hit with OA only in the field.. Advanced lab work will tell the tale in combination with the field work in my opinion. Keep an open mind Randy as what we *think* we know can and might well change as new research on bees is found. I think its fair to say from what myself and others have posted on this subject that not all researchers and beekeepers agree with yours and Marion's opinion on using OA in summer on open brood. Maybe you are right. If new research proves the opposite I hope you at least caution beekeepers about using in summer on open brood. Nick A. (Ellis student) is giving a talk on OA use in our area first of June. People will be asking some tough questions and recording his answers. Bob PS. I have never been told an ineffective treatment by a researcher or a bee lab and the reason I depend on those people for the answers to most tough problems. I have had in my beekeeping very poor advice given to me by my fellow beekeepers at times (certainly not always)and have read things on the internet which are not correct as far as use of products unapproved to treat bees. Also as Randy posted different studies of the same bee subject can come to different conclusions. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 07:44:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: CCD and Absconding Genes In-Reply-To: <002301c79886$17948f00$14bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob: Wonder why I don't see that absconding due to dearth out here in our desert climate when food stores get low.....sure that isn't or wasn't a lack of space or confinement problem from another angle? Somehow doesn't sound right what you saying.... Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 09:45:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Mating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The University of Nebraska had students map out DCA's with helium weather baloons tied to heavy fishing poles. Each balloon had a capsule of queen phermone dangling via a string. They located them mostly at about tree height in places where there were "straight runs" like fence rows or rows of trees or someother structures forming lines and believe found they could identify "most likely" areas from aerial photographs. Dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 07:53:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Clarification of open mating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Does anybody on the list have any practical methods of how to find them? Jamie Strange at Univ of Washington found the easiest was to walk around listening up. IMO, this might be dangerous, due to tripping or walking into a tree. Perhaps, make a up-listing device with a funnel and plastic tube. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 12:02:50 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: CCD and Bayer Crop Science MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I looked at the Bee Culture article by Jim Fischer "Tracking a Serial = Killer", and noted in it that he states that Bayer has offered to do = imidacloprid analyses for the CCD group. This immediately brought to my = mind a few suggestions: 1. Some samples of HFCS 55 corn syrup should be sent to Bayer for = analysis. One sample from a batch lot represents a huge amount of corn = and is very significant. I noted in my last post (which no one = responded to) that the Canadian Pest Management Regulatory Agency has = placed the maximum residue level of imidacloprid in corn at 80 ppb, = which is above the lethal dose for bees (LD50). What I would really = like to know is what happens to the imidacloprid in the processing (it = is a very stable molecule, with a half life of 288 to over 400 days in = soil, depending on the amount of organic material in the soil). So a = sample before and after processing would be helpful. A few samples = taken from different plants (one per batch lot) would indicate the = variability in levels from different areas and therefore might explain = why one beekeeper would have problems with this feed while another = wouldn't. I have no idea whether this has any connection to CCD, but = I think if they are offering to do some testing it is worth = investigating. 2. Ask Bayer Crop Science for the results of Jim Kemp's sampling of my = hives in PEI in 2003. My hives were on canola following imidacloprid = treated potatoes and I asked Jim to sample hives with exactly the = symptoms that Jim Fischer mentioned in his article: tiny cluster of = bees with a laying queen and several frames of abandonned brood, lots of = stores. The brood was often beset with chalkbrood and EFB (naturally, = there were no adults to feed them or clean out the mummies) and the = queen and few remaining bees would often retreat to a small patch of = clean comb. I am sure that if you do a search of my postings on this = list and the right keywords you will find exactly that description of my = problems long before anyone was talking about CCD. =20 Bayer spent a lot of money funding Jim Kemp and Dick Rogers to study = hives here in PEI in 2001. The results of those tests have been used to = claim the safety of the product. But with all the testing they did for = viruses, diseases etc., they never came up with any suggestion that = remotely came close to explaining those symptoms. Back then = imidacloprid was not used on corn (it was first registered in Canada as = an emergency treatment for PEI potatoes!). I think it worth looking at = the level in corn syrup that we feed. Stan ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 11:11:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: drone congregation areas In-Reply-To: <200705171457.l4HCge9p024398@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A google search for "drone congregation areas" will keep most readers occupied for the afternoon: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGIC_enU S217US219&q=drone+congregation+areas Hits include (but are not limited to: http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/info/info/behaviour/what-are-drone-con gregati.shtml http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=article&access=standard&Itemi d=129&url=/articles/apido/abs/2005/02/M4070/M4070.html http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/rf/dca/dca.html http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2005NW.....92..578K http://esa.ent.iastate.edu/confreg/?gridaction=viewonepresentation&year= 2005&presnum=043 http://www.springerlink.com/content/k4503054483137v5/ And on and on. Aaron Morris - thinking watch the line wrap! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 11:04:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Zachary_Huang?= Subject: Anyone here has some high fructose corn syrup to spare? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Type 55 or 75. I do not need much, 5-10 lbs might be enough for me. Trying to compare bees feeding on sugar and the syrup and see if there is any difference. or if you know where I can obtain small quantities, that would help too. I called a few numbers today and they all sell by the truck loads... not sure if I can obtain syrup made of regular corn, or if they are all now from Bt corn. Thank you for your attention. Zachary Huang ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 08:13:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Oxalic acid damage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Keep an open mind Randy as what we *think* we know can and might well change Thanks. I always keep an open mind, ready to reconsider anything! *Please do not paint me as an oxalic "promotor." * I thought that I was pretty clear that organic acids are rough on bees, and that sublethal effects have been documented. I'd hardly be surprised if more were found. However, carefully applied oxalic has not been documented, to my knowledge, to cause CCD symptoms. I strive to keep bees without adding anything to the hive. I consider myself as a reporter (and analyst) of research and accurate information, not as a defender nor promotor of anything, other than good beekeeping. I have no problem in seeing both sides of nearly any issue. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 15:19:14 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Acetic Acid Fumigation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I said in an earlier post to Mark that AHB genetics *could cause* a large scale absconding but not a hypothesis I personally buy into as the reason for last years CCD. Have they seen absconding swarms in CCD yards with suspected AHB? In those cases, have they seen a lack of robbing by other bees or a reluctance by wax moths or SHBs to enter the abondoned hives? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 11:29:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: CCD and Absconding Genes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >But my bees stopped swarming/absconding when I housel positioned by the way Dee, I used housel positioning on my cut comb supers this year with great success--the bees did seem to draw them more uniformly and fill them faster. However, I haven't seen swarms myself or heard reports of swarms in our area this spring from our bee club members. I attribute this to a very dry spring and good weather. Do your bees fail to swarm even in ideal swarming conditions with the housel positioning? I understand you have had six or seven years of extreme drought conditions in your area. Jerry Wallace Atlanta, GA ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 10:06:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD and Absconding Genes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, To me it seems your bees to not fit into the common knowledge of what has been written about AHB in North America. Allen Dick told me your bees were not any different than other bees he had worked. Until his visit I wondered. I know Allen does not like his name used but is in archives and what he said on the list. Allen is the only person I know of which has seen your hives. I really don't know what to say other than your bees do not seem to fit the mold of AHB. In *west* Texas in areas of AHB my friends say they kill about one in 50-60 hives a year because of being so hot. However in the place most winter in east Texas ( Carthage south to Jasper) many say they winter, make splits using queen cells and never see hot hives. I am afraid the common knowledge about AHB constant swarming and absconding should be taken as fact. Dr. Orley Taylor spent five years researching AHB in Mexico and what he reported. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 15:56:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Clarification of open mating Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Jamie Strange at Univ of Washington found the easiest was to walk around listening up. That's a lot of acrage to cover which is especially not easy to do in dense suburbia where you can't walk across anybody's property and are restricted by fences and street layouts. I was hoping to learn an easier way of doing drone-lining. :) Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 10:21:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Acetic Acid Fumigation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Have they seen absconding swarms in CCD yards with suspected AHB? I have never heard the above discussed. > a lack of robbing by other bees or a reluctance by wax moths or SHBs to enter the abondoned hives? This is only my opinion: I have read that robbing of CCD boxes does not occur by bees. I would bet money if I tossed a CCD deadout box full of honey out in one of my yards on a day no plants are blooming the box would get robbed. Robbing is a big problem with the Italians I run. Picked up two weak hives which were overwhelmed by robbers yesterday. I had entrances reduced! I also can not see what could possibly be in those deadouts which would prevent the SHB from entering for the pollen ( maybe could be used to repel SHB?)but what do I know as only a beekeeper. I can believe that the hives around the CCD apiary were busy working a floral source to rob or maybe even too weak but the hypothesis some unknown thing in the CCD deadout prevented the robbing, wax moth or SHB from entering is tough for me to believe. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 17:28:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Mating In-Reply-To: <002701c7988b$7ad7af20$6401a8c0@homeclaude> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Claude > With all this talk of DCA's, just wondering if anyone knows if an > artificially inseminated queen takes mating flights? We stop this happening by using queen excluder over the entrance, after about 30 days they lose the urge to fly out. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 13:01:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD and Bayer Crop Science In-Reply-To: <004b01c79894$71b900c0$752e9aa5@stanshoney> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan Sandler wrote: > 1. Some samples of HFCS 55 corn syrup should be sent to Bayer for analysis. It is also used in food. I wouldn't be talking to Bayer but your equivalent of the FDA and USDA if you think they are contaminating our food supply. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 13:04:16 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: CCD and Absconding Genes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The "genetics of AHB" was the crux of Bill Wilson's point made in a series of articles he wrote for ABJ in the mid-1960s. The problem was called "disappearing disease" back then, but the symptoms were essentially identical to those listed for what we now call "CCD". (The significant unusual feature was the largish brood area, without enough bees to tend the brood, the frequent presence of the queen, and a lack of any other obvious symptoms.) The source of the "AHB Genetics" was not hard to find, it was the deliberate use of semen from AHB drones at the Baton Rouge Bee Lab. Bill was treated very poorly by his masters at the USDA-ARS, not for presuming to trace down the source of this problem on his own, but for following the fairly obvious clues from his lab in Laramie, Wyoming to the doorstep of another USDA research facility. You see, the folks at Baton Rouge had distributed their most recent hybrids for "field testing" all over the place, so the "clues" were many and compelling. Due to the hostile reception Bill got, the matter was never settled with any authoritative testing at Baton Rouge. To my knowledge, no one has witnessed "CCD bees" leaving. The question "Are they going out to forage and not coming back or are they leaving emasse?" Ignores that more than forgaers are absent from affected hives. Both "house bees" and "foragers" are gone in large numbers, so this is not merely a matter of foragers not returning. Affected hives do not have enough "house bees" to support the amount of brood present in the hive, so something is causing "house bees" to leave and not return. This is much less the stuff of horror movies than it may sound at first. Any bee that is ill or dying seems to be somehow driven to leave the hive. I've asked dozens of researchers about this specific point, and the consensus is that there are multiple scenarios where a bee will be "sick", but able to fly/crawl, and will leave the hive to die. And yes, photos DO show abandoned brood. They look exactly like someone shook all of the adult bees out As for "How does this happen?", as soon as someone figures anything out, I'm sure they will tell us. :) So far, all anyone has is vague suspicions. Data will be forthcoming soon, not to worry. Perhaps some of it will be conclusive. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 13:12:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Robbing, Swarming, CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: >Have they seen absconding swarms in CCD yards...? What's at issue, there are few reports of anyone seeing bees leaving CCD hives. We have a report from a squatter/homeless guy in CA who one day saw bees hanging on vegetation, being blown about in rivulets on sides of roads near a big stockpile yard that experienced CCD. We have a few reports of unusual swarming in CA hives in yards with CCD. Considering all of the depopulated colonies across the U.S., and reports of losses playing out in a couple of weeks, in one case 2-3 days -- seems like more people would have seen bees leaving. > a lack of robbing by other bees or a reluctance by wax moths or SHBs to enter the abondoned hives? I would bet money if I tossed a CCD deadout box full of honey out in one of my yards on a day no plants are blooming the box would get robbed. That's a bet I'd like to take -- I'd make money. We've CCD deadouts in CA, Fl, and TX where yards full of strong colonies (some were stockpile yards with hundreds of colonies) did not rob out CCD colonies less than 400 yards away. In TX, the beekeeper had lots of honey, so he took the lids off the hives, pulled up a honey frame, and left them open for two weeks in sunny, warm weather. NADA, no bees at all. In CA, three large stockpile yards in same field. One was in good shape, one failing, and the other failed. No robbing of the failed boxes, even though they had 30-40 pounds of honey. The few colonies that failed in the strong yard were robbed instantly. I revisted the failed yard about a month later, bees were finally robbing the stacks of deadouts. In FL, CCD colonies had no beetles or wax moth. The few strong colonies in the CCD yards, and strong colonies in nearby apialries (200 yards) had hive beetles - so much so that the pollen subs were moving masses. Same pollen sub in CCD colonies were untouched. In the most recent cases of failing colonies, with lots of forage, robbing was occurring, but only after someone opened up the weak/deadout colonies, and even then, we did not see the aggressive robbing that Bob would expect. So, there may be a seasonal component to the robbing issue. Jerry I also can not see what could possibly be in those deadouts which would prevent the SHB from entering for the pollen ( maybe could be used to repel SHB?)but what do I know as only a beekeeper. I can believe that the hives around the CCD apiary were busy working a floral source to rob or maybe even too weak but the hypothesis some unknown thing in the CCD deadout prevented the robbing, wax moth or SHB from entering is tough for me to believe. bob ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 13:18:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Oxalic acid damage In-Reply-To: <002901c7988a$e98ba3a0$14bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Hello Randy & All, > > >> 6. Dr. Ellis's experience, anecdotal reports, and my own experience >> > indicate that colonies can handle the recommended dosages well, even with > multiple summer treatments. > > I guess with the intense high level of testing being done by Penn State, > Military and the research labs we will see before long if the above is > harming our bees. > I hope to learn a great deal from the CCD testing. > You only have to go as far as the EU to see that. They have used OA for some time now, legally and according to instructions. They have done most of the research on OA and so far it has proved safe to use on bees. If it were not, they would have had CCD or whatever long before we did.They have everything else we do, including mites. They have also use other organic acid treatments. I remember reading of their use back when FGMO came on the scene. In essence, you have had practical application of OA and other organic acids with research, tests and trials for quite some time. Other than re-inventing the wheel, I doubt if much more will be learned in our labs that has not already been looked at elsewhere. Other things do cause the damage and are implicated as possible causes of CCD. The concern for OA is purely anecdotal to date since it is not common to CCD. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 13:33:59 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: CCD and Bayer Crop Science MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Jim Fischer... states that Bayer has offered to do imidacloprid analyses for the CCD group. No, sorry, I said that Bayer offered to supply their standard reference metabolite CHEMICALS of Imidacloprid to whatever group would do the analysis. ("Metabolites" are what the plants reduce Imidacloprid down to, and it turns out that there are only a few ways that plants can break it down.) Bayer has learned the hard way that any work they do, or even fund, will be dismissed out-of-hand as less-than legitimate, so they must sit and watch someone else do the actual work. There may be a segment that will think that Bayer will not provide the right chemicals, in an attempt to fool everyone, and I don't know, don't even want to know enough biochemistry to refute this. Suffice to say that no one would be so stupid as to try a lame trick like this, nor would anyone receiving these chemicals be so stupid as to not (somehow) verify that they are legitimate samples. So, in non-technical terms, Bayer has offered to come down to the police station and be fingerprinted, as they wish to prove that they are innocent. > Back then imidacloprid was not used on corn (it was first registered > Canada as an emergency treatment for PEI potatoes!). Funny thing about that - potatoes are also grown on Long Island, NY and there was so much Imidacloprid being applied there that the stuff was found in household water wells far away from the treated areas, proving that the stuff had gotten into the water table and persisted much longer than anyone expected. (Thanks to Dick Marron for stumbling upon this document) http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/insect-mite/fenitrothion-methylpara /imidacloprid/imidacloprid_let_1003.html Despite the widespread contamination and surprising high levels of persistence, no one had any problems with hives on Long Island at the time, nor have any "CCD" cases been reported to date. They used so much imidacloprid so often that imidacloprid-resistant adult Colorado potato beetles were found on Long Island as early as 2003. And I've seen an Imidacloprid kill. The bees that get a "low dose" get "Parkinson's Disease". They shake. Its obvious. So far, no one has ever reported this sort of symptom in any CCD hives, so until someone shows me a "bell curve" of pesticide poisoning, where some hives or bees get a non-fatal, non-leave-the-hive dose, but still show signs of classic Imidacloprid poisoning as they do in known cases of Imidacloprid kills, I don't think we have any sort of probable cause for even a search warrant on Bayer's offices. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 14:41:51 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: CCD and Bayer Crop Science MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > 1. Some samples of HFCS 55 corn syrup should be sent to Bayer for = analysis. =20 Bill wrote: It is also used in food. I wouldn't be talking to Bayer but your=20 equivalent of the FDA and USDA if you think they are contaminating our=20 food supply. First, I have three unanswered emails to the Pest Management Regulatory = Agency.=20 I also have three answered phone calls, despite the fact that the = message says "normally we will get back to you within 24 hours" Second, the maximum residue allowed in corn is 80 ppb. That is no = danger to mammals, only to insects. Potatoes can have 300 ppb. Tomatoe paste is allowed = 1000 ppb. But were they thinking of feeding corn syrup to bees when they set the = level????? Stan ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 18:13:49 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Clarification of open mating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 In a message dated 17/05/2007 14:25:19 GMT Standard Time, =20 peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: The drone=E2=80=99s strategy to choose the nearer DCA would lead to a gene= tic over-representation of nearby colonies and increase genetic differences among the DCA=E2=80=99s within the region BIBBA, the Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders' Association, was founded 40+ =20 years ago by Beowulf Cooper as the Village Bee Breeders' Association based o= n =20 his observation that local populations of bees on a village scale had their=20= own=20 distinctive characteristics; as the Welsh would say of their sheep, they=20 were footed for the hill.=20 =20 In his posthumus book 'The Honeybees of the British Isles' Cooper described=20= =20 in some detail DCAs and how they are formed. =20 =20 It would appear to be advantageous to have a reasonable degree of isolation=20= =20 as the colonies that thrive best under the local conditions (micro/ area =20 climate; vegetation) are likely to produce most drones at the most propitiou= s =20 time. However, in the British Isles (where the honeybee is native) there w= ould=20 nearly always be some overlap between local populations and so the =20 disadvantages of inbreeding were unlikely to show up. =20 Chris =20 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 18:29:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: CCD and Absconding Genes In-Reply-To: <600447.21335.qm@web32101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mark berninghausen wrote: > So, I am wondering if the absconding gene of AHB has some how gotten > into the general population of our queens? Could this be one of the > reasons for CCD? Hi Mark- I can't answer your question, but it caused me to I recall a discussion on Beesource in which Dennis Murrell related his experience with what sounds like CCD back in the early 70's. I thought it was relevant so I searched a bit and found it: > Hi Guys, > > I've experienced the same kind of bee trouble in the early 70's > before mites and beetles, treatments, etc. I'd inspect a beeyard in > the late spring. It would be a boomer. Returning 3 days later, all > the bees would be gone with only a few cups of young bees, lots of > honey and brood, and the occasional queen left in the hives. A yard > would be left with a hive or two of unaffected bees. > > There wouldn't be any evidence of pesticide poisoning as no dead bees > would be found in the yard. And this occurred before any pesticide > were applied to the crops. > > At the time, we called this disappearing disease. It was devastating > when, at its height, I lost about 400 colonies per week. Most of the > losses occurred in the Western states. > > Once the dandelions starting blooming the disease abated. > > It was attributed by researchers at the Laramie Bee Lab to an influx > of African genetics . The entire thread can be found here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200920 Oh. Now I notice the original thread was started by you Mark :) Anyways, I was surprised at the diagnosis of "African genetics" so I did some digging and discovered that the USDA had been importing africanized bee semen from Brazil to Baton Rouge as early as 1959 and africanized queens and semen were subsequently shipped to Madison Wisconsin in the early 60's. From "Killer Bees Live Calmly in U.S." August, 1991 - By Thomas Ropp - The Arizona Republic: > "It's common knowledge among larger commercial beekeepers," said Dee > Lusby, president of the Arizona Beekeepers Association. "The USDA bee > lab in Baton Rouge (La.) received Aficanized bee semen from Brazil 30 > years ago and made the offspring available to beekeepers in this > country and around the world." The entire Arizona Republic article can be found here: http://www.beesource.com/news/article/azrepublic.htm Interesting reading. Interesting subject. George- -------------------------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 19:14:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD and Bayer Crop Science Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit the brief research I did on Imidacloprid indicated it is also used extensively on sugar beet seed as a preplanting treatment. so if anyone is worried about HFCS you can include liquid sucrose from NoDak in that category too. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 19:33:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Mite treatment news release Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit News release today 5/17/7 Professor Helps Develop Techniques to Reduce Threat Against Honeybees http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/530140/ Newswise — Bees swarm through the smoke as Professor James Amrine attempts to hook a pollen trap to one of the 20 beehives used for research at West Virginia University. Amrine, not wearing any protective garb, picks up the small, metal firepot and blows more smoke through a nozzle into one of the stacked, wooden boxes placed near the tree line. The smoke is designed to keep the bees from attacking. It causes them to gorge themselves with honey – a survival instinct in case they must vacate the hive and recreate it elsewhere. As bees continue swirling around his head, Amrine explains that the bees aren’t angry but confused from the smoke. He looks for the hook to attach the pollen trap. “I was stung five times yesterday,” Amrine said, momentarily looking away from the hives. “On a bad day without my suit, I might get 50 to 100 stings. I probably get an average of 2,000 bee stings a year, but it doesn’t hurt me. I’m immune.” He patiently screws the trap to the box, finishing it off with duct tape to seal any small holes. Located in an unassuming area next to the WVU Greenhouse, one might miss the importance of this research site. But the honeybees are part of an ongoing research project at WVU that promises to put the University on the map in the world of apiculture (beekeeping) and aid the honeybees’ declining populations from what scientists are calling Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD). The ongoing CCD problem escalated in November 2006 and seems to have spread to 27 states and Brazil, Canada and many parts of Europe. This problem is not only important to beekeepers and to honey lovers; nearly one-third of the human diet comes from insect-pollinated plants, and the honeybee is responsible for 80 percent of that pollination, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. A congressional study said honeybees add about $15 billion a year in value to the U.S. food supply. Among the crops to be affected are apples, nuts, avocados, soybeans, asparagus, broccoli, celery, squash, cucumbers, peaches, kiwi, cherries, blueberries, cranberries, strawberries, cantaloupe and other melons. The shortage will potentially affect the beef industry too because the growth of alfalfa is dependent on pollination from the bees. Although scientists around the country are investigating several possible causes, including pesticides, viruses, genetically modified crops and even cell phones, Amrine said he is certain that at least 70 percent of the CCD is caused by tiny mites, roughly the size of a sesame seed, and the pathogens they carry. Amrine, an entomologist in WVU’s Davis College of Agriculture, Forestry and Consumer Sciences, and one of the nation’s foremost acarologists (mite specialist), bases that estimate on the research he has been doing on the bees since 1996. Working in conjunction with Bob Noel, a beekeeper from western Maryland, they have come up with a three-part, all natural protocol for managing honeybees designed to kill or deter the maximum number of mites while having very little impact on the bee colony. The results are slated to be published in the International Journal of Acarology June 1. The protocol involves first treating the hives with two essential oils: spearmint and lemon grass, (constituents of Honey B Healthy TM, a product now marketed by Noel). “African people used lemon grass to manage honeybees for the last 60,000 years. They deserve the original credit for that. We mix it with spearmint, and it helps the bees resist the pathogens the mites carry by possibly boosting the bees’ immune systems,” said Amrine. “The underlying mechanisms of action of essential oils are poorly understood. There are various reports that state they are cytophylactic or that they actively stimulate the immune system to help ‘fight off’ pathogens. We treat declining honeybees with Honey B Healthy, and within 21 days, we see improvement.” The next step is using a special wintergreen formula mixed with grease and shaped into patties. The grease is mixed with sugar, mineral salt, honey and wintergreen and placed inside the hives. “The bees will eat it,” Amrine said. “It also combats pathogens and gives the honeybees an edge in improving their health. It doesn’t kill bacteria, but it stops their growth. Also the grease gets on the bees and makes it harder for the mites to try to hitch a ride.” The final part of the protocol involves applying a formula of formic acid to the hive with soaked pads that trap the heat and cause the acid to evaporate. “Formic acid is present in the honey already in small amounts,” he said. “Heat from the brood causes the formic acid to evaporate and holds this vapor inside the nest. It kills 93 percent of the mites inside the hive in a one-day treatment.” Amrine has worked with beekeepers across the country and in Europe. In 2006, he was named Researcher of the Year by Florida State Beekeepers for the help he gave some members of the group. “Every time we went to Florida, we got at least a 93 percent kill of mites,” Amrine said. “The beekeepers were amazed to see how well this worked. They’ve been fighting the mites and CCD for the past several years.” Beekeepers, like any phase of agriculture, have to rely on the unpredictability of nature to make their living. One colony of bees is worth approximately $250, and pollination contracts with growers can earn a beekeeper as much as $250,000. “Those beekeepers using our methods have a lot of bees and are doing quite well,” he added. “They are amazed to see how well this works.” Amrine’s honeybee research can be accessed at http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa06.htm. He is one of the authors of what many feel is the defining mite guide, “Revised Keys to the World Genera of Eriophyoidea” (Acari: Prostigmata). The International Journal of Acarology has named a fellowship in his honor - the James W. Amrine Fellowship - and he is president-elect of the Acarological Society of America. Amrine teaches an apiculture class at WVU and will be teaching a forensic entomology class this fall along with ENTO 101, a bugs and humans class, which explores insects’ impact on humans. In addition, Amrine has worked with police in the past to help them ascertain the length of time a body has been decomposing based on the presence of insects and arthropods. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 17:36:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Robbing, Swarming, CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > the hypothesis some unknown thing in the CCD > deadout prevented the robbing, wax moth or SHB > from entering is tough for me to believe. Plus if someone ever isolated and mass produced this presumed mystery repellent chemical that is so powerfully repellent to pest insects, but not toxic to humans, that person could become an overnight multimillionaire. Why? Well just think of all the practical applications such a miracle insect repellent could have. Example: worldwide it could be used to protect all kinds of stored food products (e.g. bulk stored nuts, dried fruits, grains, etc.) from attack by food infesting beetles and moths. Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 17:58:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: CCD and Absconding Genes In-Reply-To: <001501c79895$15138ba0$29bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob: If you say it should be taken as fact because it is common common knowledge, somehow doesn't mean it is right, because common knowledge is just what is currently correct due to media in one's mind IMPOV and so common knowledge changes over time for the good, the bad and the ugly. So don't put down any wooden nickles here. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 18:05:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: CCD and Absconding Genes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry Wallace: They haven't really swarmed with 6-7 years of hard drought, and in good times as there are always a few good yards even in hard drought years, don't see it there either with me working 4-5 deeps high for honey getting. But then I use unlimited broodnest managment too and housel all the way to the top of 5 deeps or more if I would have too, and the bees just do. So again question: How does space requirements layed out relate to absconding for generating same?????? Can beekeeping be that haphazzard in field managemt in manipulation of combs? Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________Give spam the boot. Take control with tough spam protection in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 19:49:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: CCD and Absconding Genes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim writes: The "genetics of AHB" was the crux of Bill Wilson's point made in a series of articles he wrote for ABJ in the mid-1960s. The problem was called "disappearing disease" back then, but the symptoms were essentially identical to those listed for what we now call "CCD". The source of the "AHB Genetics" was not hard to find, it was the deliberate use of semen from AHB drones at the Baton Rouge Bee Lab. Reply: Gee Jim, one would think that after close to a half century of the USDA shipping so much AHB genetics around it would be common understanding that the bees have been here and have been handled by beekeepers and managed okay. So what is the problem today getting things out of control besides all the various treatments, all the various artificial feeds, and of course even bigger artifical comb size now, besides inbreeding toping out IMPOV? I didn't even mention association with migratory movement, but when does the industry just decide something needs to be changed, for it cannot be AHB up to fify years later shipped to all states by USDA in bulk. That problem long passed.......So what really is going on? Does anyone really know??? besides nature taking control again....... Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 18:57:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Media coming around on CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, I read the two upcoming articles. Both interesting reading. The following is from beekeeping history and many reading might find interesting. Despite all the things found so far about CCD if you were to go and ask "Grand Pa" beekeeper of the third generation beekeeping family about what we are seeing today I think he would say a single word. I was around in the fifties, sixties, seventies ,eighties, nineties and the last seven years of beekeeping. The single word would be "pesticides". Grandpa beekeeper would say: "Two signs of pesticide kills Sonny! " 1. bees dead in front of hive 2. brood and no bees In beekeeping in my opinion you always need to consider the simple answer first. The above is the simple answer. Once eliminated as the source of the disappearing bees then look to other causes. My first beekeeping mentor was in his nineties and had been a commercial beekeeper all his life. He started commercial beekeeping in the 1800's and his words still come to me. At times I even think I feel his presence in the bee yards. Have we eliminated pesticides as a cause of CCD and ready to look elsewhere? >From Dennis upcoming article: Dennis quotes from a 2003 article by Bortolotti: " when colonies are placed near crops of sunflowers treated with imidacloprid , foraging is disrupted and colonies dwindle and DIE as foragers FAIL to return to the hive" Sounds like CCD to me. I have got a very close friend which works at the huge Bayer office in Kansas. Several weeks ago I asked a single question and for him to keep his ears open. I asked: " How serious is Bayer about fighting beekeepers over imidacloprid IF (big what if!) its use becomes suspect in the recent die offs" I got my answer last night. My friends if our researchers point the finger at imidacloprid we are in for a fight. For every study done to show harm they have got a study to show otherwise. It seems pesticide treated seed is a big selling point and money maker for Bayer right now. Hopefully " Grandpa beekeeper" is wrong on CCD being a pesticide kill. Also if pesticides are source of CCD then nothing to research. Hmmm. "Grandpa Beekeeper" said back when varroa first hit the solution was genetic and not chemicals. The Dann Purvis solution of * breeding from survivors* was the long term solution because sooner or later with chemicals we would end up with a super mite, contaminated comb and bees which could only survive with chemical treatments. Was "Grandpa beekeeper" correct ? Did Grandpa not predict this day would come? Today's farmers are not the farmers I grew up with. Today's farmers farm in air-conditioned cabs listening to CD's. The days when we grew "Dent's corn" and replanted the seed the next year is gone except for a few organic growers. I have seen corn 10-12 feet tall with ears 12-18 in. The ONLY fault I could see is the corn back then would blow down in a strong wind storm. As a teenager I traveled with an uncle selling the new hybrid corn out of the back of his truck Sales were hard in the fifties. Why would you spend money on corn seed those farmers asked my uncle? My uncle was a super salesman. He used to laugh as we left about making another sale of seed corn. Now farmers are dependent on corn seed sellers and chemical companies for corn production now. Think of what farming profits on corn might be (for example) if you did not need to buy seed or herbicides. I bought a gallon of herbicide last week $120 a gallon. I think "Grandpa farmer" would roll over in his grave if he could see the hold the seed pushers and chemical companies have got on agriculture! I used to try and set bees for years next to the old style farmer. The guy who pulled a cultivator through the corn until the corn got higher than the weeds. Huge honey crops from Blue Vine in those fields! Tanker loads of chemicals dropped on fields! Atrazine in our water supply in my county. hate to think what the water supply will be like in a couple decades! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 22:46:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD and Absconding Genes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, Have you ever seen a really hot hive of AHB bees? With your method of beekeeping you can simply come back later. In ours we are forced to deal with the bees and even transport. Also from my years of beekeeping in Florida I learned that without feeding and a floral source ( like your long drought) bees drop down on a very small brood nest. In my opinion your hives are small populations compared to what we keep. Dr. Taylor always kept his AHB in Mexico in small nucs so they were manageable. Many people have experience with AHB and you seem to say they have got AHB all wrong? Maybe AHB might work for you but I want no part of an aggressive, absconding and constant swarming bee . I hire young men to help in summer. I helped a fellow beekeeper with his insurance after an employee was stung to death. The employee lay in a coma for three months. I take aggressive bees very serious. I keep some yards on friends farms. I would feel bad if my bees stung their favorite pet to death . Let alone a small child. If I get a call saying my hives are a problem I drop what I am doing and move right away. No questions asked! Risks are associated with bee yards on peoples farms & ranches. Why I insure each yard for a stinging incident. Also run as a corporation. I have first hand knowledge of the upset nature of a load of spilled hives. The most aggressive bees I see are in beekeepers yards which do walk away splits. Beekeepers which requeen either every year or at two years seem to have the best all around bees in commercial circles in my opinion because the queen producer is doing some breeder queen selection. One reason I am beginning to like the NWC queens better all the time. Same temperament in all the hives in a yard. I respect your beekeeping Dee but see it as very primitive. Kind of like keeping a bunch of bird houses for birds. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 07:24:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: CCD and Absconding Genes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> "It's common knowledge among larger commercial beekeepers ... " I think the term "common knowledge" is code for "a completely unsupportable statement". The statement is outlandish, and of course, unsupported. But beyond that, it is almost hilarious how many people refer to "genetics" without having the flimsiest of understanding of heredity - especially as it relates to honey bees. Better go back to the books. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 11:43:25 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Mite treatment news release Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>The next step is using a special wintergreen formula mixed with grease and ... sugar, mineral salt, honey and wintergreen and placed inside the hives. ... It doesn’t kill bacteria, but it stops their growth. I wonder what effect, if any, it has on AFB bacteria. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 12:23:28 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Media coming around on CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Also if pesticides are source of CCD then nothing to research. Hmmm. Provided pesticides are to blame, would this ever be exposed given the chem companies financial might? Sorry but asking Bayer to test honey for traces of their chemicals, is like asking the fox to guard the chicken house. To me, bees are the proverbial canary in the mine. If they are affected by chems from our food crops, humans are also affected. Forget about the safe ppm level numbers they come up with to push their stuff. >>Farmers are dependent on corn seed sellers and chemical companies for corn production now. I think "Grandpa farmer" would roll over in his grave if he could see the hold the seed pushers and chemical companies have got on agriculture! The rest of world sees this and does not always like it. One would think Africa is crazy to say no to GMO seeds that promise to boost yields. They would rather continue with their hardy seed which they can use from year to year without being enslaved to a seed producer. Nothing beats sustainable agriculture and sustainable beekeeping. >>Tanker loads of chemicals dropped on fields! Atrazine in our water supply in my county. hate to think what the water supply will be like in a couple decades! There is a good movie - I forget the title - out there about a farmer's daughter who had problems with miscarriage due to drinking local water. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 05:26:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Online Excerpts from Russian Apitherapy Book Explain 'Express' Method of Medicinal Honey Production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Online Excerpts from Russian Apitherapy Book Explain ‘Express’ Method of Medicinal Honey Production Curative Properties of Honey and Bee Venom By N. Yoirish This book examines the “express” method of honey production. “[N]ew honeys obtained by the ‘express’ method possess stronger disinfecting properties than natural and artificial honeys.” Page 58 SEE: http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/05/online-excerpts-from-russian-apitherapy.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 08:39:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Online Excerpts from Russian Apitherapy Book Explain 'Express' Method of Medicinal Honey Production In-Reply-To: <200705181232.l4ICJh3l019921@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit OK, so I went there. Made me wonder what is the "'Express' Method of Medicinal Honey Production"? I was pleased to discover that the book (_Curative_Properties_of_Honey_and_Bee_Venom_ By N. Yoirish) was available online! So I went to page 58 to get an answer to my question, onlt to discover, "pages 58-61 are not part of this book preview" So I have to ask, what is the "'Express' Method of Medicinal Honey Production" Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 08:46:29 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: CCD and Bayer Crop Science MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > First, I have three unanswered emails to the Pest Management Regulatory Agency. > I also have three answered phone calls, despite the fact that the message says > "normally we will get back to you within 24 hours" Don't expect PMRA to be anything like "responsive". I waited 5 years for PMRA to do what every other country on the planet has done in about a week - classify Bee-Quick as a non-pesticide product. Yep, 5 years. Long story short, they could not wrap their collective heads around the concept that bees are not "pests" to a beekeeper, moreso when they are managed bees in a hive, producing honey. After 5 years of exchanging letters, PMRA was forced to admit that there simply were no regulations that they could force-fit onto the product, that bees were not "pests" to a beekeeper, and that herding bees out of honey supers at harvest was not "pest control". If I were you, I'd go to one of the elected ministers with oversight authority over Health Canada, which includes PMRA. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 13:26:24 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: CCD and Bayer Crop Science Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim, >>After 5 years of exchanging letters, PMRA was forced to admit that there simply were no regulations that they could force-fit onto the product, that bees were not "pests" to a beekeeper, and that herding bees out of honey supers at harvest was not "pest control". Do you have any experience with using Bee-Quick to drive bees out of structures or trees? I can imagine trees might be easier if holes can be drilled above and below the nest on the side opposite the entrance. Bee-Quick could then be injected into those holes with the hope the bees would emerge at the entrance. Structures can be trickier since convection current in the often hollow spaces could carry the vapors away from the combs. Do you think sufficient Bee-Quick vapors could be blown into tree holes with Bee-Quick in an unlit smoker to cause the bees to move out? Penny for your thoughts. :) Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 09:33:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Media coming around on CCD In-Reply-To: <20070518.052330.9728.517664@webmail08.dca.untd.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline ----- Original Message ----- From: "waldig@netzero.com" Date: Friday, May 18, 2007 8:52 am Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Media coming around on CCD To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > >>Also if pesticides are source of CCD then nothing to research. Hmmm. > > Provided pesticides are to blame, would this ever be exposed given > the chem companies financial might? Sorry but asking Bayer to > test > honey for traces of their chemicals, is like asking the fox to > guard > the chicken house. I thought there were providing metabolites for others to use in their testing. Bayer hasn't offered to do the testing themselves. Why? Prolly because they know someone would say just what you did. I would be happy to be corrected if I am wrong about that detail. > To me, bees are the proverbial canary in the mine. > If they are > affected by chems from our food crops, humans are also affected. Yes, No and Maybe. There are a number of products that make use of the differences in mamalian and arthropod physiology such that it kills one and leaves the other undamaged. There are things that will kill bees and leave humans unscathed. Killing things is complicated business, let us not simplify it to the point that we make generalizations and lead ourselves astray. Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 11:52:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: CCD and Absconding Genes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > How does space requirements layed out relate to absconding for generating same?????? Can beekeeping be that haphazzard in field managemt in manipulation of combs? Dee: I can't comment regarding housel positioning in broodnest as I don't practice that at present. However, I do generally practice unlimited brood nest management and rarely see swarming/absconding. The absconding I have seen is always in weaker nucs/hives or hives with too much super space to defend against summer/fall buildup here in small hive beetle populations. Your field management practices work very well for you in your area, but might need some tweaking in other areas of country for local conditions. Respectfully, Jerry Wallace ______________________________________________________________________________ ______Give spam the boot. Take control with tough spam protection in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 13:28:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Zachary_Huang?= Subject: Re: Request for Status Report on Zach's "Spartan Mitezapper" Comments: To: "Lehr, Carl" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is a short update: 1. we have published an abstract in the American Bee Journal (May Issue, I think) on a 2006 summer field test. We got fantastic results. 2. right now we have about 90% survival of the mitezapper colonies from last winter, but about 20-30% survival from the control colonies and drone colonies (colonies which received a drone frame but not treatment). this is despite the fact that we treated for mites in October (thousands of mites dropped in 24 hrs). This says late treatment (late Sept to Oct) wont work in Michigan because we need the winter bees undamaged by mites to get through the 6 months winter time. I am continuing a 2nd year field study with overwintered bees (many more mites!). Hopefully I can write this one up soon for publication. 3. Mitezapper LLC in Detroit is producing the first batch of zappers now. Target date: about September, ready for spring of 2008. Zachary Huang Michigan State University and beetography.com On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 07:41:29 -0400, Carl David Lehr wrote: >Zach, > Could you give us an update on your Spartan Mitezapper? Have you >found a manufacturer for your product? .. >Dave Lehr >Carroll County Beekeepers Association >1st year Beekeeper >Westminster, Maryland ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 12:16:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: CCD and Media MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Like many of you, I am tired of media calls on CCD. While I think I have been generous with my time, and hope I have been accurate, I have also been criticized (by other beekeepers) for sharing my views that pesticide and other stress may be contributing factors. This article has been all over the web, but I don't recall it has been posted here. I just got around to reading it, although it is dated May 2. While there are some glaring errors, they do not seem to be substantive and I wish I had referred some media to it, as a means of reducing my time involvement. *http://tinyurl.com/2sdzkb* ** *Lloyd* -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 15:10:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: CCD and Media Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd wrote: >I have also been criticized (by other beekeepers) for sharing my views that pesticide and other stress may be contributing factors. Sorry to hear you have taken flak. It certainly surprises me that anyone would doubt that colony collapse *could* be caused by pesticides or stress. However, I do believe that no one really knows if there is a common thread or what it might be. Furthermore, it isn't clear which is worse: pesticides on the outside (from the environment) or the pesticides on the inside (introduced by beekeepers). It could even be an unexpected reaction between these (synergistic effect). The only ones I personally think are utterly implausible are: cell phones and genetic weakness. I think the gene pool in the USA (or Europe and Australia, for that matter) is so large and varied as to preclude inbreeding. The idea that there is an absconding gene from early importations of African bees is silly. Cell phones aren't worth discussing at all, IMO. The article "Colony Collapse Disorder: Have We Seen This Before?" by Robyn M. Underwood and Dennis vanEngelsdorp on the recurrence of disappearing bees is highly enlightening. They mention over twenty occasions when a similar die-off has been reported, going back to the 1800s -- well before widespread chemical spraying, cell phones, and at a time the bee population was no doubt much smaller and less varied than it is now. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 17:27:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Clarification of open mating Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter L. Borst wrote: >The drone’s strategy to choose the nearer DCA would lead to a genetic over-representation of nearby colonies and increase genetic differences among the DCA’s within the region. In the context of this “drone clumping” *the choice of virgin queens among DCA’s seems to be of great significance*. >Basically, this proves drones are lazy, which we already knew. Hello Peter, Could you please expand on how drones are determined to be lazy? Would you describe worker bees visiting the nearby acre of clover, instead of going a mile further for another acre of clover also to be lazy? I don’t see a drone as lazy. I see a powerful flyer resting in the hive gaining energy. And when conditions are right, perhaps taking 2 or 3 flights to visit several DCA’s and capable of bursts of speed in pursuing queens etc. I >really don't think you will see very much difference in bees "over on the >next ridge". Maybe not the next ridge, but I am seeing differences in traits in populations of ferals as close as about 5 miles or so. In some areas that I am more familiar with, I have been able to record particular traits that seem to exist only in these populations. Best Wishes, Joe FeralBeeProject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 17:05:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I heard on a national news program today that CCD is thought to be caused by Chinese melamine in bee feed. I wonder how long this story will run. Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 18:10:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Re: Anyone here has some high fructose corn syrup to spare? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zachary, I would think a bakery would at leat know where you could find some-. John Horton ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 16:27:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Mite treatment - Legal ingrediants? In-Reply-To: <20070518.044400.9728.517130@webmail08.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "waldig@netzero.com" wrote: >>The next step is using a special wintergreen formula mixed with grease and ... sugar, mineral salt, honey and wintergreen and placed inside the hives. ... Individually, are these items listed above approved for use in the hive? Are they considered food grade material and thus don't come under the eye of legal considerations? Now that we have this concoction, has there been tests run under the scientific method or are the results anecdotal? Not knocking anecdotal because sometimes that's the way things are brought to attention and tests run to either corroborate or refute the anecdotal evidence. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 11:15:35 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Apimondia 2007 registrations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable GREAT NEWS. The deadline for earlybird registrations for Apimondia 2007 = in Melbourne has been extended to 15 June. If you have not registered = already, go to www.apimondia2007.com and complete the online = registration. Do not miss out on this once in a lifetime experience. Trevor Weatherhead Organising Committee ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 01:39:22 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: melamine wasRe: [BEE-L] CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/state/pennsylvania/7566772. html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 18:40:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: CCD and Absconding Genes In-Reply-To: <001f01c798ff$0e7e7740$03bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob: Have you ever seen a really hot hive of AHB bees? Reply: Bob it is something you would just have to look over being you.... to assess. Bob: In my opinion your hives are small populations compared to what we keep. Reply: Bob, again it is something you would just have to look over being you....to assess and FWIW I just supered one yard today ahead of flow with several 6 deep, as I couldn't figure out what else to do there, so I laced the top two boxes with full frame honey, and then empty new foundations to try to hold them till I can get back for extracting as have to finish this round of workups to restart thru. But you should understand this! Again, anytime you want!! YOu are welcome to come on down!! Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 21:23:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Trait Differentiation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "J. Waggle" wrote: I am seeing differences in traits in populations of ferals as close as about 5 miles or so. In some areas that I am more familiar with, I have been able to record particular traits that seem to exist only in these populations. ********************************************** Joe, Can you expound on some of the differences in expressed traits that you are observing? How are they different from those traits that you see expressed in you own colonies? Mike in LA --------------------------------- Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 04:56:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Clarification of open mating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 19/05/2007 02:19:42 GMT Standard Time, naturebee@YAHOO.COM writes: Maybe not the next ridge, but I am seeing differences in traits in populations of ferals as close as about 5 miles or so. That would accord with Cooper's observations. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 08:05:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Clarification of open mating Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit J. Waggle wrote: >I don�t see a drone as lazy. I see a powerful flyer resting in the hive >gaining energy. And when conditions are right, perhaps taking 2 or 3 >flights to visit several DCA�s and capable of bursts of speed in pursuing >queens etc. I agree. That's what I tell my wife: I am not a couch potato but a powerful flyer resting on the couch gaining energy. Capable of great bursts of speed when my mug gets empty and I don't want to miss the play. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 10:46:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Trait Differentiation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike Stoops wrote: >Joe, > Can you expound on some of the differences in expressed traits that you are observing? How are they different from those traits that you see expressed in you own colonies? Hello Mike, It appears that there is a resurgence of micro populations of ferals in remote areas, with each population occasionally having different pronounced orders of traits. I have identified a remote area several years ago that was leading the feral recovery. I removed several colonies with massive nest structures of comb 4 plus years old from this area, at a time when no calls OR only one to two year old colonies succumbing to varroa were being discovered else ware. If I were to describe an area that would be prime feral habitat, this would be the place. Abundant large voids in the form of abandon farms, silos and old frame construction farm houses, massive border trees harboring voids, a variety of forage types and water. These colonies in this area have a spontaneous grooming behavior and are of cell size below 5.0. The line continues to maintain very low mite populations, and I have not seen the trait to this degree in any other population of feral or domestic colonies. In other feral populations where grooming traits seem lacking, I will generally see a very high degree of hygienic behavior and also with small cell size. In side by side assessments of woodland type ferals against swarm calls from populated areas, there was NO comparison. In this dry year that the assessment was done; woodland ferals maintained a very nice honey cap and abundant brood production, while ferals from populated areas had difficulty bringing in sufficient nectar to maintain even minimum brood rearing functions, and showed very clear signs of stress and reduced brood production. This is a potential indication of different foraging behavioral traits existing in the woodland ferals. The woodland ferals is where I am focusing my trapping, due to the enhanced foraging behaviors and the fecundity in the broodnest that does not seem to elevate varroa levels, indicating other modes of resistance may exist. Best Wishes, Joe ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 11:18:49 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: CCD and Bayer Crop Science MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do you have any experience with using Bee-Quick to > drive bees out of structures or trees? A number of beekeepers and a few of the more enlightened pest control companies use Bee-Quick to do this, but "product liability" concerns make these applications something that we cannot openly promote. It is not beekeepers that are the concern here, as we beekeepers inherently "assume a great deal of risk". It is the uninformed homeowner who stumbles upon the website, orders the product from a retailer, and approaches an entrenched AHB colony armed with nothing more than a bottle of Bee-Quick that concerns the legal beagles. One of the better methods involves the use of a shop-vac, a bee-vac, or a leaf blower. The hose is plugged into the exhaust port of the shop-vac or bee-vac, so they are blowing air through the hose. Soak a thin cloth with Bee-Quick, and rubber-band it over the end of the hose. Using a hole saw, cut a hole large enough for the end of the hose at the bottom or top of the cavity opposite the entrance. Blow, re-apply as needed, repeat. Small test holes may be required to find the actual extent of the cavity, but I like using a non-contact infra-red "spot" thermometer to detect the waste heat of the colony, best done in the evening, when surface temps are lower, and the difference is more obvious. For stud walls, a stud finder is also a big help. I use both the electronic and the old-fashioned magnetic types. That said, Bee-Quick is not going to remove comb, and the comb, brood, and stores are going to make a mess if left inside the walls of any inhabited structure. I guess it does make the eventual opening up and comb removal process easier, as there are far fewer bees (if any) in the wall. When dealing with trees, the recipe of a ladder, a chainsaw, and a colony of annoyed bees sounds like the start of a Darwin Award story, so once again, removing the bulk of the bees before cutting might make things less problematic. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 16:10:12 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > CCD is thought to be caused by Chinese melamine in bee feed Someone is misreading or mangling a factual AP news item. Beltsville did run a test or three, just because it was easy to do. AP ran the item, so it could run in many newspapers. http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/state/pennsylvania/7566772.ht ml Jeff's work in this area is clearly a mere formality. There is no way that all beekeepers affected would have bought the same "pollen supplement" without this being noticed in the initial round of fact gathering, and HFCS would never contain additives like wheat, now would it? I'm still annoyed that the FDA has the time and budget to investigate dog and cat deaths, but not to investigate unexplained bee colony losses. http://tinyurl.com/2slftt ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 23:24:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: A.m.m &small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Interesting new research published last year in Apidologie seems to support what Dee Lusby has been saying as far as cell size being enlarged since the late 1800's. The research was done in Ireland on A.m.m. by J.B. McMullen & M.J.F. Brown. "The Influence of Small Cell brood combs on the morphometry of honey bees ( Apis mellifera) Apidologie, 37-665-672 The study gives exact places of bee size reduction and the amount of the reduction. Bee size was measured at 5 months and then 24 months after placement on 4.9-5.0mm. small cell comb. The study was done only to see if cell size produced small bees and said nothing about things like varroa control other than there were reports of varroa control by those using small cell comb. The authors opinion was that small cell could help with varroa control. The authors clearly state that A.m.m was originally on 5.0mm. cell in the late 1800's in England & Ireland. Then in the 1920's foundation of 5.5mm. was introduced. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 06:40:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: CCD Comments: To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm still annoyed that the FDA has the time and budget to investigate > dog and cat deaths, but not to investigate unexplained bee colony > losses. Probably, because there are allot more dogs & cats drying than bees. Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 10:48:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: A.m.m &small cell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: >The authors clearly state that A.m.m was originally on 5.0mm. cell in the >late 1800's in England & Ireland. Then in the 1920's foundation of 5.5mm. >was introduced. It should be pointed out that it is Apis mellifera mellifera that they are talking about and not Italians or Carniolans, from which most US commercial strains are derived. These bees are larger. > The brood-cell size of the Northern European dark bee, A. mellifera mellifera, which was indigenous to Britain and Ireland up to the early part of the twentieth century, was in the range of 4.9–5.1 mm (Cowan 1904; brood-cell size was measured as the distance between the opposite faces of the hexagonal cell). The period from the late 1800s to the 1920s saw a major change in cell size with the introduction of commercially produced foundation of about 5.5 mm width (Erickson 1990). Erickson suggested that brood comb cell widths greater (or smaller) than normal might stress colonies making them more susceptible to parasites. > There was no evidence that the susceptibility to tracheal mite infestation of bees raised in small-sized brood cells was any different to that of those raised in standardsized brood cells and thus the hypothesis is rejected. The female mite abundance and fecundity in bees from the two cell sizes were similar. Hence, there is no reason to believe that the increase in cell size in the late 1800s—early 1900s period influenced the onset of tracheal mite infestation in the indigenous honey bee in Britain and Ireland, A. m. mellifera. from Brood-cell size does not influence the susceptibility of honey bees (Apis mellifera) to infestation by tracheal mites (Acarapis woodi) by John B. McMullan Mark J. F. Brown ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 10:16:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: RICHARD DIONNE Subject: Feeding sugar syrup Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed When feeding sugar syrup to bees in spring or fall and they pack it into the cells, does the syrup ferment, as it would if left in a drum over time? Can anything be added to syrup in drums to prevent fermentation? When the bees consume the syrup does it turn to honey, same as nectar from plants? Comments please: Thanks Richard ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 11:12:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Africanized honeybees have unique tolerance to Varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Excerpts: Varroa destructor is an ectoparasitic mite of the adult honeybee, which parasitizes the bee brood. This mite has killed millions of honeybee Apis mellifera colonies, worldwide, eliminating wild populations throughout Europe and North America, and resulting in the loss of billions of dollars in agricultural production. Varroa kills host colonies indirectly by providing a new transmission route for a few naturally occurring honeybee viruses such as the deformed wing virus. In Apis cerana (the original host of Varroa), mite reproduction occurs only in the small number of sealed male (drone) honeybee brood cells. Consequently, mite populations within an A. cerana colony are low (< 800) and no adverse effects are seen. In A. mellifera EHB colonies, V. destructor also reproduces in the much more numerous worker brood cells, enabling mite populations to increase up to 2000-fold annually, causing colony death within one year. However, mite populations in similar-sized AHB colonies stabilize at 1000–3000 mites per colony, allowing colonies to survive indefinitely, although the resistance mechanism, until now, has remained elusive. The Africanized honeybee (AHB) has a unique tolerance to V. destructor that is not present in the A. mellifera European honeybee. The short adult longevity of AHB (21 days versus 25–180 days for as a result of the tropical or sub-tropical climate indicates that >12,000 mites are needed to kill an AHB colony. Therefore, although Deformed Wing Virus is present in AHB and A. cerana colonies, mite populations stabilize at levels well below that required to kill the colony. It is unlikely that AHB evolved Varroa tolerance after the AHB hybrid was created as a result of increased hygienic behaviour or brood attractiveness because such factors are unlikely to lead to a stabilized mite population. Instead, tolerance has probably resulted from pre-existing resistance characteristics fortuitously coming together in the hybrid. That is a high level of mite offspring mortality in worker brood and a short life span in the adult honeybee. from Africanized honeybees have unique tolerance to Varroa mites by Stephen J. Martin and Luis M. Medina TRENDS in Parasitology Vol.20 No.3 March 2004 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 12:31:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: CCD MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline From: K&W Jarrett > Probably, because there are allot more dogs & cats drying than > bees. I am not certain that is true, and I suspect it has a lot more to do with the fact that they are already set up to do stuff like this, have more experts in the related feilds to call upon and there are more individual humans being touched by this directly that by CCD. This also falls squarely in what they understand as their percue and jurisdiction to uise the term perhaps a little inappropriately. CCD may not "feel" the same to them, and is certainly less familiar ground. And let's face it, the average american likes dogs and cats better than stinging insects. Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 11:01:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: CCD In-Reply-To: <001001c79ae4$6ed7b5c0$36a7ff04@wendyf10934cd0> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline ----- Original Message ----- From: K&W Jarrett Date: Sunday, May 20, 2007 10:42 am Subject: Re: [BEE-L] CCD To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > > I'm still annoyed that the FDA has the time and budget to > investigate > > dog and cat deaths, but not to investigate unexplained bee colony > > losses. > > Probably, because there are allot more dogs & cats drying than > bees. I am not certain that is true, and I suspect it has a lot more to do with the fact that they are already set up to do stuff like this, have more experts in the related feilds to call upon and there are more individual humans being touched by this directly that by CCD. This also falls squarely in what they understand as their percue and jurisdiction to uise the term perhaps a little inappropriately. CCD may not "feel" the same to them, and is certainly less familiar ground. And let's face it, the average american likes dogs and cats better than stinging insects. Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 12:51:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Africanized honeybees have unique tolerance to Varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Peter & All, Interesting hypothesis but I need to remind all that other than a very few people. AHB has had little actual research. Many researchers I have spoken with say they want no part of digging though hives of AHB counting mites & brood. Especially with larger AHB feral populations. When you read published information today on AHB at the end of the article most of the information comes from source material. I would like to see some new AHB research ( done by others of course!) Thanks to Peter for posting and would like to post a few comments. I read few research papers which I completely agree with. Even the book "Mites of the Honey Bee" which I endorsed for many issues of bee magazines I did not completely agree with. The book was done by simply gathering all the published research together in one place. The book really helped to place all the published mite information together. >In Apis cerana (the original host of Varroa), mite reproduction occurs only in the small number of sealed male (drone) honeybee brood cells. Since the recent research of Denis Anderson the word *only* does not now apply. Although not often Denis found varroa will move into worker cerana brood at times. >Consequently, mite populations within an A. cerana colony are low (< 800) and no adverse effects are seen. Actually most researchers would suggest the small colony size, period without raising drones AND the fact cerana uses a small hole in the cell of drone brood to remove and control varroa as big a factor as the above. Very little DWV and other virus seem problematic in cerana which still needs further research as to why. >However, mite populations in similar-sized AHB colonies stabilize at 1000–3000 mites per colony, allowing colonies to survive indefinitely, although the resistance mechanism, until now, has remained elusive. The above is painting AHB with a broad brush. With A.M. scutellata might be true although from what I have been told by my friends in South Africa constant swarming and sbconding away from varroa leaves most the varroa in the old nest ( which can then crash)and reduces varroa population greatly. Some researchers I have spoken with say some hybrid crosses of African genetics and European genetics are poor survivors. In my opinion hybrids can perform all across the scale. If speaking of pure "scuts' in Africa then much of what Peter has posted might be true but when using AHB ( meaning hybrid cross) I wonder. >The Africanized honeybee (AHB) has a unique tolerance to V. destructor that is not present in the A. mellifera European honeybee. Until a researcher tells us *exactly* what that might be causing a *unique tolerance* simply a hypothesis in my *opinion*. I will say that the day earlier post capping time of "scuts" plus smaller cell size *might* help in varroa control. Keep varroa down and viruses are not as much of a problem from my personal observation. >that >12,000 mites are needed to kill an AHB colony. So at 11,999 mites the hive can survive. Some researchers would get a chuckle here. Mite threshold *in my opinion* has been shown to be not very reliable. I would like to see some proof of the above. Certainly a level at which PMS usually appears. >Therefore, although Deformed Wing Virus is present in AHB and A. cerana colonies, mite populations stabilize at levels well below that required to kill the colony. The above is what was said back years ago. Numbers of mites = hive kill. Only virus problems in last stages (Shiminuki). I actually bought into the concept until I saw Parasitic Mite syndrum (PMS) in hives with low mite counts. The advanced virus research being done today is welcomed by beekeepers. Varroa problems and virus in my opinion keeps changing. Throwing many commercial beekeepers a curve ball. Stronger mites and virus showing up at lower levels of mites making research told us over a decade outdated. Many of us have privately said the gap between research and what we are seeing is getting wider. Hopefully with all the fuss about CCD research will catch up! Last falls CCD research has made a big jump in closing the gap! Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 14:46:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: A.m.m &small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 20/05/2007 15:53:25 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: <> Beowulf Cooper was just as convinced that Amm was larger! It would be interesting to see figures based on old museum specimens from the days before widespread hybridisation. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 21:33:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Mc Cool Subject: full super on top Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In some books I have read: that when adding a super, one should always put the full super on top of the new empty one. Please, why is this ? -- Thanks ____________________ Joe Mc Cool Snark, currently LEYC 028 37548074, 07802572441 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 13:32:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith B wrote, > And let's face it, the average american likes dogs and cats better than > stinging insects. Well said Keith B , this was the punch line I was making. We as a group can yell all we want, but it has been falling on deaf ears for a long time now. Maybe we should just let the public starve for food for a year or two and let price of food go through the roof then they would get the hint of the value of these little bees that we have? Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 07:24:20 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Africanized honeybees have unique tolerance to Varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>In Apis cerana (the original host of Varroa), mite reproduction occurs > only in the small number of sealed male (drone) honeybee brood cells. > > Since the recent research of Denis Anderson the word *only* does not now > apply. Although not often Denis found varroa will move into worker cerana > brood at times. >From my understanding of the situation, I think the operative word is "reproduction". As I understand it, varroa can be found in worker cells from time to time but they cannot reproduce in the worker cells, only drones cells. So there is only production of more varroa when drone brood is present. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Have you registered for Apimondia 2007 in Melbourne, Australia? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 22:31:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Africanized honeybees have unique tolerance to Varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: > AND the fact cerana uses a small hole in the cell of > drone brood to remove and control varroa as big a factor as the above. Is this correct? I have seen (and photographed: http://www.stratfordbeekeepers.homecall.co.uk/CeranaDroneBrood.JPG) the hole in the centre of the caps of drone cells and I cannot see how a varroa mite could be removed through it - just too small. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 14:36:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Africanized honeybees have unique tolerance to Varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>I actually bought into the concept until I saw Parasitic Mite syndrum (PMS) in hives with low mite counts. The advanced virus research being done today is welcomed by beekeepers. Ditto here--saw it this spring due to a poor nutrition event. Pathogens seem to be lurking, waiting for their moment. I see so much more of what appear to be viral problems these days. >Varroa problems and virus in my opinion keeps changing. Throwing many commercial beekeepers a curve ball. This is where Jerry Bromenshenk's Army machine for viral scans could be really useful. Get a good database across the country of what's out there. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 17:38:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: A.m.m &small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 20/05/2007 15:53:25 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: It should be pointed out that it is Apis mellifera mellifera that they are talking about and not Italians or Carniolans, from which most US commercial strains are derived. These bees are larger. Why? Generally creatures get bulkier the further they are from the equator or sea level. Or by 'these bees' you mean Amm. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 19:07:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Africanized honeybees have unique tolerance to Varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob wrote: > Interesting hypothesis but I need to remind all that other than a very few people. AHB has had little actual research. Many researchers I have spoken with say they want no part of digging though hives of AHB counting mites & brood. I beg to differ. It has been studied for decades, in Brazil, South Africa, Central America, even in the USA. Ten years ago, Dave de Jong wrote "Africanized honey bees in Brazil, forty years of adaptation and success" (Bee World 77 (2): 67-70). > Some researchers I have spoken with say some hybrid crosses of African genetics and European genetics are poor survivors. In my opinion hybrids can perform all across the scale. If speaking of pure "scuts' in Africa then much of what Peter has posted might be true but when using AHB ( meaning hybrid cross) I wonder. quote: > Initially, it was assumed that African and European bees would interbreed, giving rise to the "Africanized honey bee" of Latin America. However, although substantial hybridization occurs when African bees invade areas with European populations, over time European characteristics tend to be lost. ... the hybrid-swarm concept was seriously challenged when mtDNA polymorphisms revealed that over 97% of feral colonies from Brazil, Venezuela, Honduras, and Mexico possessed African mtDNA haplotypes; east European mitotypes were virtually absent. -- from THE AFRICAN HONEY BEE: Factors Contributing to a Successful Biological Invasion, by Stanley Scott Schneider, et al. >The Africanized honeybee (AHB) has a unique tolerance to V. destructor that is not present in the A. mellifera European honeybee. > Until a researcher tells us *exactly* what that might be causing a *unique tolerance* simply a hypothesis in my *opinion*. A hypothesis is an explanation for observed data, and it can never be "exact", The data show African bees surviving, where European bees don't. This is not a hypothesis, but an observed fact. The paper I cited attempts to *explain* why this is true. >12,000 mites are needed to kill an AHB colony. > So at 11,999 mites the hive can survive. Some researchers would get a chuckle here. No they wouldn't. They would wonder why you don't get this is just an estimate. I don't see how you can dismiss the work of people like Stephen J. Martin and Luis M. Medina. Luis did his PhD on this subject and he lived in the Yucatan. His work showed: > mite populations in AHB colonies stabilize at 1000–3000 mites per colony, allowing colonies to survive indefinitely (L.M. Medina, PhD Thesis, University of Sheffield, 2003) Back in 1999 work was published in Apidologie on this topic. See: Guzma´n-Novoa, E. et al. (1999) Susceptibility of European and Africanized honey bees (Apis mellifera) to Varroa destructor in Mexico. Apidologie 30, 173–182 -- Peter L. Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 20:23:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: A.m.m &small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris Slade wrote: >Why? Generally creatures get bulkier the further they are from the equator or sea level. Or by 'these bees' you mean Amm. No, I was wrong. A. m. m. and the others (carnica and ligustica) are about the same size. Tropical Apis mellifera tends to be smaller. All the African types tend to be smaller than the European ones. For a thorough education on this topic you can slog through this paper: "Phylogeographical autocorrelation of phenotypic evolution in honey bees (Apis mellifera L.)" by JOSE ALEXANDRE FELIZOLA DINIZ-FILHO , STEFAN FUCHS & MARIA CRISTINA ARIAS To summarize: * Size correlates to latitude. body size variables and the first principal component of total values of the 39 characters tend to have a large-scale geographical structure, with larger subspecies occurring in Europe and smaller subspecies in tropical Africa * Wing venation shows change over time. The characters of wing venation, on the other hand, show a very high phylogenetic correlation, indicating an elevated P component, but usually with lower spatial patterns. This can be interpreted by neutral (nonadap- tive) evolution, in which the magnitude of divergence is proportional to time of divergence. * Color is not correlated to anything. Colour variation usually does not show a significant correlation with either of the two referential dimensions [neither latitude nor time] This lack of correlation could result from small-scale random variation in these traits -- Peter L. Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 00:24:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: honey bee taxonomy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am looking for a guide, preferably a modern one, to the different species, sub-species and varieties of honey bees. It would be handy to have a chart, or a quick reference guide, that connects common names to scientific names and gives a brief description of distinguishing characteristics and maybe places of origin. You know, like a field guid to the honey bees of the world. Because, frankly I sometimes have a hard time keeping track of the relationships between all the different bees that are being discussed and compared here. Surely such a thing exists. Would someone let me/us know where to get a hold of something like that? Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 11:03:11 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: A.m.m &small cell In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter & Chris > No, I was wrong. A. m. m. and the others (carnica and ligustica) are > about the same size. Tropical Apis mellifera tends to be smaller. All > the African types tend to be smaller than the European ones. This is too general a statement to be useful... Each of the races has a range of cell sizes that it can use or accommodate to. Each range is represented by a 'normal distribution' bell shaped curve. The curves for each racial type overlap considerably. This is further complicated by the curve for AMM being of greater range than the others, to the extent that it almost encompasses the curves of the other races. The centres of the curves are represented in the Eva crane cell size figures that can be found in Bee-L archives under the subject heading 'Cellsize...More Information' message 033035. One of my gripes about the usefulness of FABIS is that the upper range for AHB overlaps considerably with Ligustica and the lower portion of AMM. Now on top of this comes the conjecture... I am of the opinion that the wide range exhibited by AMM is actually caused by two subsets of genes that perhaps ought to be considered as different sub races. I have no proof, all I have is an ever growing suspicion based on two types in each category of behaviour being found among stocks that are already well documented as to pedigree. Similar to the authors of... Phylogeographical autocorrelation of phenotypic evolution in honey bees (Apis mellifera L.) I am of the opinion that we will find out a lot more about this subject over the next few years, I am not worried whether I am right or wrong, but I would like more concrete answers than we have at the moment. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 06:29:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Africanized honeybees have unique tolerance to Varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob wrote: > Interesting hypothesis but I need to remind all that other than a very few people. AHB has had little actual research. Many researchers I have spoken with say they want no part of digging though hives of AHB counting mites & brood. Actually, plenty has been done on this topic. The question is not whether African bees are resistant to mites, but how. Apparently, the African drones can contribute this resistance to European bee populations. So if you are keeping European bees in an Africanized zone (like Arizona, Texas, or Florida), open mated queens pick up African genes and develop mite resistance. Think about this when you see claims of mite resistant bees! > Although the mite has caused severe losses of honeybee colonies and has eliminated wild bee populations in temperate climates, it does not appear to be a serious pest in regions of the world where the Africanized honey bees (AHB) exist. > the results showed that the addition of genes through Africanized males helps to confer resistance to European honeybees by means of changes in mite fertility and grooming behavior. from: "A multifactorial study of the resistance of honeybees Apis mellifera to the mite Varroa destructor over one year in Mexico" by Luis MONDRAGÓN, Marla SPIVAK, Rémy VANDAME Apidologie 36 (2005) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 08:19:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: full super on top In-Reply-To: <20070520203338.GA16431@benburb.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The usual reason given is to lure bees up to the top super to finish it off, which also makes the lower available and noticed. Another reason is to reduce capping travel stain by bees not wiping their feet before entering, so capping's are whiter. You will find beekeepers in both the upper super and lower super camps. I have had no trouble with bees filling upper supers. I uncap to extract so no need for whiter cappings. I tend to put two or three on at once and not one at a time. Best advice I got on supering is to look for burr comb on the deep's top bars before supering. Then you know they are ready. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 09:01:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: honey bee taxonomy In-Reply-To: <200705211023.l4LAHOBY010046@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Steve, AFAIK, what you requested (a chart that clearly shows honeybee taxonomy) does not exist, although if it does exist I am sure I will be corrected. One submission suggests Wikipedia, although after 15 minutes perusing their pages I did not find what you seek. From the BEE-L archives ( http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9801C&L=BEE-L&P=R144&I= -3 ), a wise poster points readers to Brother Adam's _In_Search_of_the_Best_Strains_of_Bee_ which contains about the best break down of strains and characteristics I've ever read, but again no short, concise chart as you requested. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 20:39:32 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Honey Bee taxonomy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Start here, and just keep following the links http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_honey_bee like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_honey_bee#Subspecies_originating_in_= the_Middle_East_and_Asia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_honey_bee#Subspecies_originating_in_= Europe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_honey_bee#Subspecies_originating_in_= Africa and these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_bee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_mellifera_mellifera http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carniolan_honey_bee Regards Peter Detchon ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 12:55:09 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Unlimited broodnest nectar management. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I do generally practice unlimited brood nest management and rarely see swarming/absconding. I am having some impressive results with 3-deep broodnest hives w/o excluders so far - 2 medium supers (8 frames/super) full of [mostly autumn olive] honey at the time when black locust has not started blooming! [It should start this week.] After the locust, there will be basswood, sumac intermixed with white clover, poison ivy, clethera, Japanese knotweed, losestrife and others. It may be a bumper year.:) I have one 3-deep nest hive that is super strong with lots of brood in all 3 deeps. It has 4 medium supers on it (2 full of honey, 1 partial with honey, 1 empty on top). I found queen cells in the nest that appear to be swarm cells since there was quite a bit of nectar in the brood nest (I'd expected them to push it up into the supers instead of backfilling the nest to prepare for swarming). I checkerboarded the top deep with foundation and moved the empty drawn-out super to just over the broodnest to switch off the swarming urge. Is this approach right? I had read Walt Wright's writing on how the wires in queen excluders are perceived by bees as barriers to upward nectar movement. What about 8 frames per super? Do they also make bees think there is a 'ceiling' at the bottom super? [In nature, bees are used to continuous comb from top to bottom.] Can the transition from 10 frames in the nest to 8 frames in the supers make the bees think they've run out of room? Your thoughts and insights will be much appreciated! Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 12:56:24 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Trait Differentiation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe, >>woodland ferals maintained a very nice honey cap and abundant brood production Unless you are already doing it, I'd set-up my mating nucs with virgins in this location. From what you describe, these may be the *best* bees in the US since they grooming for varroa. What kind of honey crops have you gotten from these bees? Would you consider selling some of this stock? >>The woodland ferals is where I am focusing my trapping... I'd be interested to know if this woodland population is steadily expanding. Do you have any way of gauging that? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 07:49:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Fewer swarms this year? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just curious -- How have the heavy bee losses over autumn and winter affected the number of swarms this spring? Here in eastern Missouri swarm calls are almost nonexistent compared to last year. I spoke the other day to the swarm coordinator for our local organization -- she said she'd only gotten two calls so far, compared with dozens by this time in a normal year. Eugene Makovec Kirkwood MO USA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 10:22:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ROBERT RAUCH Subject: Re: Fewer swarms this year? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii I think your lack of swarm calls will be due to a lack of any honey crop for this year. At least in my area (west central Missouri), the April frost has eliminated any honey flow up to this point. We experienced 3 days of below 20 degree temps during the main early bloom period. With supplemental feeding, I have maintained my hives at normal population levels for this time of year however it is touch and go to avoid starvation so far. There are no stores at all in most hives. No stores- plenty of space- no swarms. I would be very curious as to how large an areas is affected by the frost impact. Bob Rauch- Higginsville, Mo. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 17:55:30 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Fewer swarms this year? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>How have the heavy bee losses over autumn and winter affected the number of swarms this spring? Here in eastern Missouri swarm calls are almost nonexistent compared to last year. It's been the same here in south-eastern NY. Last year I received 3 bee calls in the 1st week in May and then it was almost non-stop for 5-6 weeks with calls every week. I've heard of only 2 swarms this year and they happened to other folks. I've received 2 calls that were false alarms - ground-nesting solitary bees. Not sure of the species. They look like carniolan honey bees although a little smaller. Fast flyers. Not easy to catch. Stingless. For us, the bee calls normally start after the first period of hot weather in the spring. The swarms hit the trees, bees fly more and are more noticeable to homeowners, the phone rings. The spring has come late here this year, it's been cool (in the 40's some nights). I have NO reason to believe we had any significant bee losses. I saw honey bees foraging on autumn olives 50 yards from the sea shore yesterday. The seashore tends to be cooler this time of year than further in-land. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 13:46:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Fewer swarms this year? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bob & All, Welcome to BEE-L! > I would be very curious as to how large an areas is affected by the frost impact. Bob Rauch- Higginsville, Mo. Both myself and Bell Hill Honey have been feeding bees to keep bees from starving. I spoke with Glenn this morning and he is moving his bees out of the holding yard and putting on supers. Mine have been on yards since the 22nd. of April. I last fed on the 16th of this month. In some areas the bees have been bringing nectar but not in the area yours and my bees border each other. I believe the White Dutch flow will start next week. Hopefully I will not need to feed again. Will check after memorial Day weekend. Like you I still am not ready to super. Still worried about bees starving. Bell Hill did the apple pollination North of you. The orchards say almost a total loss. My own small orchard is a total loss. No apples,pears, cherries, plums, peaches or Asian pears. The trees are producing new leaves. Also no ALMONDS! I planted some almond trees I brought back from California. Beautiful trees but have not got a single almond after five years. If we get rain this week I think we might get a normal honey crop for our area but will have to wait and see how much sweet clover bounces back from last years drought. I figured you had some winter losses because when I drove past your yard by Maple Leaf Park I did not see the numbers of hives you normally keep there. Hope you have the best year ever! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 14:56:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bman140 Subject: Re: Fewer swarms this year? In-Reply-To: <001501c79bd8$553c39c0$17bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm in S. E. TX and I've had more swarm calls this year than any of the five years I've been keeping bees. About 22 in all and mostly btwn March 15 & end of April. Usually only about 5 or6. Hate to hear all the bad situations from other areas and always wondering if it's gonna hit here too. Not gonna get my hopes too high but enjoy it while it's here. Ed --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 18:09:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: A.m.m &small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 21/05/2007 01:33:41 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: Colour variation usually does not show a significant correlation with either of the two referential dimensions [neither latitude nor time] Hpw about altitude? Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 18:16:39 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: honey bee taxonomy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 21/05/2007 11:25:42 GMT Standard Time, paramita@WHIDBEY.COM writes: I am looking for a guide, preferably a modern one, to the different species, sub-species and varieties of honey bees. Take a look at Friedrich Ruttner's book Breeding Techniques and Selection for Breeding of the Honeybee, the English translation of which is ISBN 0-905369-07-6. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 18:46:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Africanized honeybees have unique tolerance to Varroa mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A new generation of bee researchers is on the way and many have chosen the African bee as a subject for study. For example, from a PhD Dissertation by Maria Alice Da Silva Pinto: The spread of Africanized honey bees throughout most of South America, Central America, and the southwestern United States, in such a short time, is perhaps the most remarkable ecological event of the last decades. The nearly coincidental arrival of Africanized honey bees and the parasitic Varroa mite complicated understanding of the mechanisms underlying Africanization. Whether a greater dilution of A. m. scutellata genes would occur had the resident population not collapsed is unknown. However, it is possible that the event hastened the demise of "pure" European honey bees and had a major role in restructuring the post- Africanization population. In a crossbreeding experiment between Africanized and European bees, Guzman-Novoa et al. (1996) found differential susceptibility of brood and adult workers to Varroa mite. The authors reported: * Susceptibility to becoming infested by Varroa was least in Africanized brood followed by European, F1 of European mother, and F1 of Africanized mother. * Adult European worker honey bees were more likely to become infested with Varroa than were adult Africanized honey bees; whereas hybrid bees were infested at a rate not different from that of the Africanized honey bees. -- MARIA ALICE DA SILVA PINTO, PhD Dissertation ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 19:46:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Honey Bee taxonomy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nice site, too bad it's in German: http://www.buckfastimker.de/showstatic.php?file=brassen ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 21:03:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Africanized honeybees have unique tolerance to Varroa mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit More research on African Bees: scientists are even testing their IQ! excerpt: > In this article, we will briefly comment on what the study of AHBs can tell us about the evolution of intelligence. We will also discuss some history related to the release of the AHB and describe some of the behavioral differences between AHBs and EHBs. The article will conclude with a summary of our own research on learning in AHBs. from: "Behavioral Studies of Learning in the Africanized Honey Bee" by Charles I. Abramson & Italo S. Aquino ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 20:12:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Latest beekeeping news. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I just got off the phone with Australia. The test results are back from the cerana colony in the ship mast and the small swarm found about 200 meters away. No varroa. Both swarms had no mites. Cerana problem contained I was told. Also I learned a queen producer working in Australia from Quebec, Canada reported some die off problems back home. Not sure if related to CCD. Also a beekeeper in Italy has said they are having some die off problems in areas of corn. In about half their yards. They have sent off samples. Will try to post when those results come in. No CCD type problems being reported in Australia. I spoke to California today by phone and the bees look great. Making splits. Almond growers are reporting a bumper crop. All the news for now! Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 21:45:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: A.m.m &small cell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wrote: >> the African types tend to be smaller than the European ones. Dave Cushman wrote: >This is too general a statement to be useful What I "know" about sizes I got from Eva Crane. According to her, European A. mellifera cell sizes vary from 5.1 to 5.5 and African A. mellifera cells vary from 4.6 to 5.0. Obviously, the average of the Africans would be smaller than the European, and so is the range. She states: The Carniolan bee is rather large. Caucasica is the larger, dark or grey mountain bee. A. m. lamarckii, the honeybee of the lower Nile valley is small, with black and yellow abdominal bands. Monticola is the only African one approaching European A. mellifera in size, and exists at high altitudes. By the way, she describes all the various types at length in "Bees and Beekeeping: Science, Practice and World Resources". ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 22:37:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: honey bee taxonomy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_honey_bee This page has pretty much what I was looking for information wise. Its not a chart, but it could be made into one easily. Thanks Peter. I should have known to look on Wikipedia. I looked for Brother Adams book "The Search for the Best Strains of Bees" and found a couple of used copies on Amazon for about $40. I also found it in other places for over $100. It sounds like something well worth reading and I will keep an eye out for a cheap copy. Thanks Aaron Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************