From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:57:55 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.1 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C8DD48864 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFhrpc016524 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:17 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0709D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 216956 Lines: 4676 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 22:51:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pete wrote: > Our authors don't speculate on how the mites are transferred, but if > it is by robbing, then you would expect them all to have about the > same amount, whether the distance is a meter or a mile. That's seems > to be what they found. Excellent point, Pete, especially since the most distant colony (nearly a mile away) picked up dang near as many mites as the 1-m colony. This point is also supported by Goodwin's data from New Zealand--that robbing is of far more consequence than drift. Also supported by my own observations--that I see heavily mite-infested colonies sitting side by side with very low infestation colonies for the season. You not only need to monitor *your* mites, but to also monitor your neighbor's mites (as many commercial beeks already do surreptitiously). Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 04:13:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Use of Honey in Surgical Wards 'Highly Recommended' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Use of Honey in Surgical Wards 'Highly Recommended' Honey: Nutritional and Medicinal Value International Journal of Clinical Practice Volume 61 Issue 10 Page 1705-1707, October 2007 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/09/use-of-honey-in-surgical-wards-highly.html Summary: Honey is not only used as nutrition but also used in wound healing and as an alternative treatment for clinical conditions ranging from gastrointestinal tract (GIT) problems to ophthalmic conditions... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 03:33:50 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: English ivy revisited. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks from the UK mentioned last year that, in their areas, English ivy can produce a super of surplus honey that crystalizes quickly. I checked my local English ivy stands then and was disappointed not to see honey bees on them. What a difference this year! I stopped by some old black locust trees in ivy's strangle-hold by the library today. Some blossom clusters had 2-3 honey bees not counting wasps and butterflies. There is not much old growth ivy by me but whatever stands we have seem to provide some good, late nectar to the bees. Interestingly, there was no pollen in the leg baskets. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 18:55:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Comments: To: Randy Oliver Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Pete wrote: > Our authors don't speculate on how the mites are transferred, but if > it is by robbing, then you would expect them all to have about the > same amount, whether the distance is a meter or a mile. That's seems > to be what they found. Hello, Now that we know from the study that many varroa are transferring ‘ahead of winter weather’ and at least to “distances up to 1.5 km” as the study states. This is strong evidence suggesting that the so called “virulent varroa” in the Arnot Forest certainly DO have somewhere to go, and ARE GOING. And if we are to believe the study, apparently these “virulent strains” would NOT all succumb during winter as was assumed the case with the feral bees of the Arnot Forest. And such a great transfer rate would certainly mitigate selective pressure for the non virulent mites in a small forest. If the ‘Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies’ study is to be taken as factual, we must then consider there would also be a GREAT transfer rate of varroa, and mixing of varroa genetics (throughout the summer) in and out of the Arnot Forest, and over great distances within the known range of robbing bees (foragers, as we know well have a range of two miles and more). This research appears to contradict Tom Seeley’s Arnot Forest, ‘non- virulent mite theory’ which relies heavily on the assumption of virulent mites <<<‘succumbing in winter with the colony’>>> and a ‘non transfer of mites between colonies‘ as the bases for the assumption that non virulent mites are the sole cause for the feral honeybee survival in the Arnot forest. Because the study found that varroa are transferring to other colonies at a great rate “From August–October”. One could certainly assume that Seeleys colony of Carnolians would benefit from lower levels of varroa found in this feral population, and likely equalizing in varroa numbers to a similar infestation rate found in that population. Since this study appears to have struck a great hole in the non virulent theory. One must now entertain the potential for a cause other than non virulant mites. Perhaps, just perhaps, an adaptive varroa resistance mechanism may exist in the feral honeybee population of the Arnot forest. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles FeralBeeProject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:11:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe wrote: this study appears to have struck a great hole in the non virulent theory. This study certainly reaffirms the one unsolved aspect of varroa management--immigration from susceptible colonies. But I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that it demolished the non virulent hypothesis. In my area of California, robbing occurs any month of the year, and it would be extremely difficult to imagine nonvirulent mites evolving here, especially with the constant influx of managed bees. However, I don't know if we can extrapolate the conditions in my area, nor in Germany, to short season, cold winter areas, where colonies don't collapse until after it's too cold to rob, such as on Gottland Island. There's no reason that nonvirulent mites couldn't evolve there. So I'm not sure that the theory is universally dead. It's pretty obvious to me that it is far more probable for mite resistance and tolerance to evolve in the bee, especially since I see it happening (with the help of directed selection) in my own apiaries, and, in your feral colonies, Joe. In the study cited, 12 colonies apparently picked up phoretic mites by robbing out 2 collapsing colonies, or a 16% loss of the entire bee population in the area during the short period of the study. I'd be curious as to the rate of fall collapse in feral colonies in the Arnot forest, or in your area. If a resistant colony picks up an extra 200 mites late in the fall, it may indeed be only a relatively moderate increase in infestation if they are already carrying say, 1000 mites at that time of year (a typical load for a mite-tolerant colony at that time of year). If the colonies exhibit strong varroa sensitive hygiene and grooming behavior, they may well be able to tolerate that degree of influx. Some 2000 mites were apparently picked up from two collapsing colonies--an average of 1000 mites per colony. It would be of interest to model the dynamics of a feral population, as to what percentage of colonies could collapse while it's still warm enough to rob, what the infestation level at time of collapse was, the efficacy of transfer of the surviving mites, and the degree to which the receptor colonies were able to expel them. The result of interest would be to maintain a stable population of colonies. Any modelers out there? Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 04:28:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: English ivy revisited. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/09/2007 06:03:47 GMT Standard Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: What a difference this year! I stopped by some old black locust trees in ivy's strangle-hold by the library today. Some blossom clusters had 2-3 honey bees not counting wasps and butterflies. On the Irish List we are conducting a survey of when the first ivy blossoms are seen as it seems to work from north to south and we aren't sure whether it is light level (latitide) or temperature that is the trigger. Perhaps you could let us know the latitude, altitude and current temperature range of your ivy flowers as well as the first date you saw the blossoms open. Thanks. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 03:50:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Study: Propolis Showed 'Significant Protective Effect' on Intestinal Lining MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Study: Propolis Showed 'Significant Protective Effect' on Intestinal Lining Propolis Reduces Bacterial Translocation and Intestinal Villus Atrophy in Experimental Obstructive Jaundice World Journal of Gastroenterology, 2007 October 21; 13(39): 5226-5231 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/09/propolis-reduces-bacterial.html AIM: To investigate the effects of propolis on bacterial translocation and ultrastructure of intestinal morphology in experimental obstructive jaundice… ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 08:41:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Joe Waggle writes: > If the 'Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies' study is to be taken as factual, we must then consider there would also be a GREAT transfer rate of varroa, and mixing of varroa genetics (throughout the summer) in and out of the Arnot Forest * I don't see how any of us can intelligently discuss "varroa genetics". Supposedly varroa mites basically clone themselves, so apparently there is very little variation. Unless one specializes in mite biology, it's just talk. > This research appears to contradict Tom Seeley's Arnot Forest, 'non-virulent mite theory' which relies heavily on the assumption of virulent mites <<<'succumbing in winter with the colony'>>> and a 'non transfer of mites between colonies' as the bases for the assumption that non virulent mites are the sole cause for the feral honeybee survival in the Arnot forest. * I don't think Tom or anyone pointed to "non-virulent mites" as the "sole cause for the feral honeybee survival in the Arnot forest". There are a great many factors and he only studied one, which was that the bees themselves may have developed heritable resistance to varroa. This seemed not to be the case, so he offered a possible alternate explanation. Tom never developed nor promoted any "non-virulent mite theory" as you call it. Personally, I can think of many other factors that could lower mite levels, such as the fact that the bees are living high in trees and swarming on a regular basis. Annual swarming has a very strong negative effect on mite buildup. > Since this study appears to have struck a great hole in the non virulent theory. One must now entertain the potential for a cause other than non virulant mites. Perhaps, just perhaps, an adaptive varroa resistance mechanism may exist in the feral honeybee population of the Arnot forest. * Or maybe one must look for another cause of the non-virulence. You seem to leave out the chief reason mites are so destructive and that is the virus load they bring. Maybe in isolated spots bees do well because of the lack of new strains of viruses. We know that some isolated bees can survive for years without treatment, whereas bees in areas with there is a heavy bee population -- and especially if there are a lot of migratory operations -- develop severe mite problems much more quickly. I have seen firsthand this phenomenon. I have seen isolated colonies where no-one has opened the hive in years (but me) and the bees are fine. This summer I saw a yard of nucs just ruined by varroa mites (nucs normally don't crash the first year). We attributed this to the likelihood of their having picked up high mite loads from crashing hives in neighboring bee yards. In the area there are dozens of apiaries, many only a mile or two apart, and most of them are migratory, moving back and forth between NY and FL. If you are going to talk about virulence, you have to understand what that means. Since mites are so inbred, it would seem less likely that it has to do with "mite genetics" than it has to do with other infections. As we have said, mites are a vector for a variety of viruses and other pathogens, and they weaken the honey bee immune system. There is an immense amount of work that needs to be done on the immune system of the honey bee, as well as the vectoring of these many pathogens. I haven't even mentioned the Nosema connection, which further complicates the whole story. It would great if beekeepers could all move into the mountains and maintain isolated apiaries; a lot of the problems might sort themselves out. It would be great if all you had to do was install mountain grown queens into your hives and all the problems would go away. However, many of us realize that there are large-scale beekeepers and they still have a right to keep bees the way they do, moving about the country and doing pollination for hire. With the price of honey so variable, pollination has been the main source of income for many companies for decades. There is also a huge market in the North for early queens, which can only be supplied by beekeepers in the South. I also realize that this is all very hard on small timers, especially those who wish to forgo miticides. As a bee inspector, I am called upon to recommend treatment for mites. I point out that if you are in a remote area, you can probably get by with little or no treatments but if you are around commercial beekeepers you pretty much have to do what they do. Whether this has to do with virulent mites, susceptible bees, or rogue viruses, I DON'T KNOW. But one study on mite transfer due to robbing, frankly, proves nothing. -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 08:50:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Guys, I've moved varroa free hives near infested ones and observed the same results. Within a few weeks, natural mite fall will be essentially the same. But here's something else to think about. My small cell hives were surrounded by hives that migrated from CA almonds. Two semiloads were dropped within 2 miles. The last remanents of them would be moved to out yards toward the end of May. And up to 400 hives would be placed around my small cell yard on about a 1/2 mile spacing. There are two commercial beekeepers who have grandfathered locations. And suitable bee habitat is scarce. Yet, my small cell hives thrived without treatment, even when hives surrounding mine were collapsing from varroa. Some of the surrounding yards would normally have 40 hives. And would be left with just a couple after the collapse. Regards Dennis ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 08:52:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Beekeeping around Louisville MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Greetings A friend of mine is moving to Indiana, and wants to know if his bees will do well there. He will be living close to the Louisville KY area and I wonder if there are any beekeepers who could share a bit of experience about bee plants, seasons, and whatnot. He has about 80 colonies and wants to take them with him. -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 08:57:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Guys, Here's a second point to think about. My small cell hives thrived when surrounded by a large number of varroa infested hives that collapsed. This occurred twice. But large cell hives, surrounded by small cell hives and left untreated in my small cell yard, would follow the normal 2 1/2 year pattern to decline and collapse unless treated. Regards Dennis ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 09:08:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Guys, I've recently moved from Wyoming to Florida. And I gave my small cell hives to one of those commercial beekeepers. They were put incorporated into one of those typical yards I talked about. It would be interesting to know how they do when actually placed inside such a beeyard. It's only been about 5 months, but I'll see what I can find out and post it here. Regards Dennis ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 09:18:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: health, pleasure and a comfortable living! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A little note from the past! > Dr C.C. Miller of Marengo, Ill., who is regarded as the American authority on bees, has harvested 18,150 Ibs. of honey from 124 colonies. However, his warning is that the man whose sole aim is the accumulation of wealth would better let bees alone; but all bee keepers agree that health, pleasure and a comfortable living are found in intelligently raising honeybees. > Profit in animal raising, like profit in all other lines of business, depends largely upon the time and attention given to it and the willingness of the worker to study, to observe and to profit by experience. from A LITTLE LAND AND A LIVING (1909) BY BOLTON HALL Author of THREE ACRES AND LIBERTY Pete ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 09:46:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Comments: To: Randy Oliver Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit randy oliver wrote: ,,I don't know >if we can extrapolate the conditions in my area, nor in Germany, to short >season, cold winter areas, where colonies don't collapse until after it's >too cold to rob, Hello Randy, The ‘time of the collapse’ means little, the research shows the belief that virulent mites are ’ALL dying during winter’ a false assumption. The researchers found that from the dates “August–October 2006” The infestation rate into other colonies averaged about 200 mites. These mites are scattered over the population of honeybee colonies and are not ALL dying back at the original colony from which they came. To make the non virulant mite theory work, one has to make some great assumptions that robbing NEVER occurs, and that it never occurs in colonies that have bees in them ,,,and robbing never occurs during August thru October,,, Testing, drifting etc.? The new study proves that mites ARE being transferred between colonies during the summer months at distances of at least 1.5 K and therefore is in direct contradiction to the non virulent mite theory, which relies heavily on the assumption of virulant mites are staying in their colonies and succumbing in winter. ,,,such as on Gottland Island. There's no reason that >nonvirulent mites couldn't evolve there. So I'm not sure that the theory is >universally dead. I don’t think we can assume that robbing and transfer of mites does not occur on Gottland Island and Nordic areas during summer months. However, I do agree that an island or ‘totally isolated’ areas would perhaps select for the so called non virulent mites, but Seeleys 4200 acre tract of forest with domestic beehives known to exist right outside the borders is a far cry from isolation. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles FeralBeeProject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 14:20:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst writes: “Or maybe one must look for another cause of the non- virulence. You seem to leave out the chief reason mites are so destructive and that is the virus load they bring.” I am wondering if this is absolutely, undeniably, categorically, irrefutably true or if, on the other hand, the fact that mites suck most of the life out of bee pupae has anything to do with it. Has there been a direct cause and effect connection made between the viruses that are associated with high mite levels and the symptoms that we see in colonies that are heavily infested with both? Or is this still largely to somewhat in the hypothetical stage. I know this has been batted around before, but I can’t remember if science has finally settled the matter. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 14:39:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter L. Borst wrote: >* I don't think Tom or anyone pointed to "non-virulent mites" as the >"sole cause for the feral honeybee survival in the Arnot forest". Hello Peter, It sure sounds like Seeley is proposing this in his abstract with no mention of any other potential factor. “Evidently, the stable bee-mite relationship in the Arnot Forest reflects adaptations for parasite (mite) avirulence, not host (bee) resistance.” And also sounds like Jim Fischer is supporting Tom's mite avirulence as the cause with no mention of other potential factor in a letter posted to bee-L Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 09:25:58 -0400 Subject: Re: CCD in Ferals? swarm identification “The survival of the "feral colonies" was not due to any unique trait of the bees, but instead, due to traits in the local population of the >>>VARROA mites<<<.” Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles FeralBeeProject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 18:29:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe Waggle and all I did not post the abstract of the study to get into a discussion about feral bee survival, but Joe raises some questions that need to be addressed. As I have said before, I am a big fan of Tom Seeley and not just because he's from Ithaca and was Roger's protege. And as I have also said, when he undertook to study the bees in the Arnot forest to see if their survival was due to some heritable character (or not) I was a bit skeptical. I have been to the Arnot forest and I could not see that there had been time or isolation enough for bees there to develop any unique characteristics, but I thought, hey -- he's a scientist, he'll figure it out. Well, then, I wasn't that surprised when he concluded that the queens he raised from "wild stock" didn't perform any better than the commercial bees to which they were compared. And, his suggestion that the answer might lie with the mites rather than the bees raised more questions than it answered. When I posted the short abstract on the movement of mites from infested to clean colonies, I didn't think it bore much connection to the feral bee question. Certainly proving that bees rob or that mites evolve *doesn't change Tom's conclusion*, that the Arnot bees didn't have "the right stuff". These issues are peripheral to *that* question, but of interest nonetheless. So far as I know, Tom has gone on to other things and bee breeding is not some he has focused on at all. So, we are free to speculate as to what else causes this feral bee effect. As I said, it could have to do with the bees living high in trees, or the annual swarming. It appears that distance between colonies is not an important factor . The following abstract shows how swarming might be the cause. When shook swarms were made, the swarms had far fewer mites than unsplit hives. The unsplit hives had about 5 times as many mites despite having only twice as many bees. The colonies that had the lowest number of mites were set up without brood. Nucs made with brood had almost as many mites as the control hives. * * * Effects of colony splitting swarms on population development and health status of honey bee colonies. I. Illies, et al Nucleus colonies and artificial swarms are used to increase the number of honey bee colonies in apiaries. Colony regeneration this way simulates the natural colony reproduction by swarming. The new colonies are physically separated from the old, possibly pest- and pathogen loaded brood nest of the mother colony. The shook swarm method (i.e., one technique of producing an artificial swarm) has a disease preventing and sanitizing effect. Our study aims to test the effects of such manipulation practices on colony population dynamics, and on the number of Varroa destructor mites and secondary viral infestations. In July 2006 artificial swarms were generated from 12 honey bee colonies. Six swarms were shaken on to combs with unsealed brood (group A). Another six swarms were shaken on to fresh wax foundation (group B). The remaining brood from the swarm donating colonies was used to established six nucleus colonies (group C). Six untouched colonies were used as control (group D). The mite infection rate in October was significantly lower in A and B (A: 1.6 mites per 10 g bees. B: 0.9 mites per 10 g bees) than in the other two groups (C: 5.0 mites per 10 g bees, D: 5.7 mites per 10 g bees,. Colony strength was significantly affected by the swarm simulating manipulations: The colonies in treatment groups A and B had 8000 individuals on average in November, while the mean of C and D was approx. 16 000 bees. No winter fatalities occurred. * * * The abstracts were excerpted for review purposes only from: Association of Institutes for Bee Research Report of the 54th seminar in Veitshöchheim 27–29 March 2007 Apidologie 38 (2007) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 18:33:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>>>I don't see how any of us can intelligently discuss "varroa genetics". Supposedly varroa mites basically clone themselves, so apparently there is very little variation.<<<<< If mites just cloned themselves, there would be no variation and they could not adapt. Since it's obviously true that mites DO adapt, especially to our pesticides then they are not just clones of each other. Variance can take place in the formation of an egg, and does. Pieces of DNA get dropped and others picked up. Recombination of existing DNA yields new phenotypes. I don't pretend to be up on the details but it is obvious that they are not "basically clones." Stop saying that. People actually read this list for information. Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 19:12:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/09/2007 17:03:23 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: Personally, I can think of many other factors that could lower mite levels, such as the fact that the bees are living high in trees ..... .....where they might be able to obtain and make good use of propolis as an anti viral agent. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 19:15:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "The survival of the "feral colonies" was not due to any unique trait of the bees, but instead, due to traits in the local population of the >>>VARROA mites<<<." I talked with Tom about this. The other candidate was bee behavior. Small colonies that swarmed often breaking the brood cycle. Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 19:49:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steve Noble wrote: > I am wondering if this is absolutely, undeniably, categorically, >irrefutably true or if, on the other hand, the fact that mites suck most of >the life out of bee pupae has anything to do with it. Well, it would take some time for me to dig up irrefutable proof. In the meantime there's this from an old article: > Researchers [are] not certain exactly how -- or even whether -- the mites themselves cause bee colonies to die. For instance, damage by varroa mites to individual bees is difficult to detect. Instead, researchers blame the colony deaths on "parasitic mite syndrome." > "We believe tracheal and varroa mites are the major contributing factor in these colony deaths, but viruses and other pathogens, possibly transmitted by the mites, also may be involved," Camazine says. "We need to solve the mystery of exactly why these mite-infested bees are dying. Do infested bees have a lower cold tolerance? Do the mites directly damage bees? Do they spread viral infection or weaken the bees' immune system, allowing other diseases to kill them?" > Bees always have been subject to diseases, parasites, and predators. Some affect the brood, while others affect adult bees ... but the researchers suspect that mites may put stress on the colony, raising the impact of otherwise minor diseases. The end result is poor brood production, a dwindling colony population, and eventual colony death. http://www.aginfo.psu.edu/PSA/ws98/bees.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:31:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: How do varroa mites affect honey bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > How do varroa mites affect honey bees? Several avenues have been proposed. First, varroa mites immunosuppress honey bees. Second, the mites live on bee haemolymph, which may cause reduced adult body weight and protein content. Third, varroa mites are implicated in many bee diseases. The mites are blamed for causing a so-called parasitic-mite syndrome. More importantly, the mites have been suggested and demonstrated to vector various bee viruses. > It has become clear that varroa mites have a keystone role in this four-way interaction between bees, mites, viruses and microbes. Clarifying the role of varroa mites in bee survivorship is needed given this complex interaction. Is the death of bee colonies only due to the interaction between bee immunosuppression and pathogens or are impacts of the mite parasitization on physiological traits also involved? > Our results suggest that the primary cause of bee death and colony collapse may be due to the immunosuppression of the bees by the varroa mites and the continued impact on the adult bees. We are currently exploring the correlation between varroa mite parasitization, virus infections, and microbial exposure. from: Effects of parasitization by Varroa destructor on survivorship and physiological traits of Apis mellifera in correlation with viral incidence and microbial challenge by: X. YANG and D. COX-FOSTER Parasitology 134(3):405 (2007) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:46:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dick Marron wrote: >If mites just cloned themselves, there would be no variation and they could >not adapt. Since it's obviously true that mites DO adapt, especially to our >pesticides then they are not just clones of each other. Variance can take >place in the formation of an egg, and does. Pieces of DNA get dropped and >others picked up. Recombination of existing DNA yields new phenotypes. I >don't pretend to be up on the details but it is obvious that they are not >"basically clones." Stop saying that. People actually read this list for >information. Right. Clone is a bad choice of word. However, the varroa life cycle is a closed circuit, where the female mates with her own offspring. But I think it is an error to describe resistance as a response to pesticides as much as it is a weeding out of susceptible individuals. > Varroa enters the prepupal cells one to two days prior to capping and hides from the nurse bees by submerging in the remaining liquid brood food, lying upside down. > Varroa produces its first egg 60 hours after the cell is sealed. The first egg is usually a haploid male, and the subsequent female eggs are laid at 30-hour intervals. (1) * * * > Resistance occurs when a pest population -- insects, for instance -- is exposed to a pesticide. When this happens, not all insects are killed. Those individuals that survive frequently have done so because they are genetically predisposed to be resistant to the pesticide. > Repeated applications and higher rates of the insecticide will kill increasing numbers of individuals, but some resistant insects will survive. The offspring of these survivors will carry the genetic makeup of their parents. These offspring, many of which will inherit the ability to survive the exposure to the insecticide, will become a greater proportion with each succeeding generation of the population. (2) references 1. PARASITIC MITES OF HONEY BEES: Life History, Implications, and Impact Diana Sammataro, Uri Gerson, and Glen Needham 2. Pest Resistance to Pesticides Robert G. Bellinger, Department of Entomology, Clemson University ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 19:52:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > But I think it is an error to describe resistance as a response to > pesticides as much as it is a weeding out of susceptible individuals. "Resistance" is a *genetic* response to the selective process of pesticides. Varroa clearly has genetic diversity--note the various haplotypes. It must also have either diversity or a measurable mutation rate in order to develop resistance to pesticides. Sela's paper on viral gene insertion into the honeybee would imply that viruses play with mite genetics too. Mites are also hosts of viruses, notably DWV and IAPV. Despite their frequent brother/sister matings, I suspect a considerable degree of genetic diversity once they have been on a continent for some time. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:05:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Evaluation of SC colonies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "D. Murrell" wrote: Hi Guys, My small cell hives were surrounded by hives that migrated from CA almonds. Two semiloads were dropped within 2 miles. And up to 400 hives would be placed around my small cell yard on about a 1/2 mile spacing. Yet, my small cell hives thrived without treatment, even when hives surrounding mine were collapsing from varroa. Have you run a study to see what kind of mite drop you get on your small cell hives? Or what kind of mite load they are sustaining? Mike in LA --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:19:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Beekeeping around Louisville In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Peter L. Borst" wrote:A friend of mine is moving close to the Louisville KY area........ Are any beekeepers who could share a bit of experience about bee plants, seasons, and whatnot. Used to live just north of Indianapolis. He should do well there continuing the management practices he used in New York and then modify as conditions require. He will find a lot more flying days in the winter than in New York and spring buildup will commence maybe a month earlier. The major honey producing plant in most of Indiana is sweet clover. Get that started in fallow ground and roadsides and that will provide plenty of forage for the bees. There usually is a lot of dandelion around and if he lives close to suburbs there will be a lot of the early blooming bulb flowers. These and maple tree blooms provide some good early spring buildup pollen. There are a lot of excellent sites in Indiana and he and his bees should do well there. Indiana seems to have a very good state beekeeping organization as well and he should make contact with them for additional info/help. Indiana Beekeeper's Association, Inc. http://indianabeekeeper.goshen.edu/ Mike in LA (Lower Alabama) --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:13:32 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: SC test In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We were talking about SC tests last winter, and I said I would try to make my bees draw out 4,9 the way Dennis suggested. Well I did try. I gave 12 hives SC foundation early in spring, one by one in the center of brood nest. They didn't like that foundation at all, made a total mess of it trying to rebuild to 5,3. One colony actually managed to get a nice looking 5,3 pattern and used it for brood through the summer. But almost all colonies left the frames empty all summer. SC frames were sitting there in the middle of the box totally empty except a few drone cells! Looks like the queens didn't lay in them due to the strange cell sizes. Workers kept cleaning them and leaving them empty. After 3 SC frames in each hive I gave up, the bees were not building up properly. There were only brood on one side when the empty SC frames were acting like dividers in the middle of hive. So I moved them to one side, where they were sitting still empty until autumn. I decided to give it one last try when wintering. Moved all brood frames down to bottom box and gave them a full frame of SC foundation on top. Same result, bees totally rebuilt it to the same mess. So Dennis, it doesn't work here with my bees. From previous experience I know they are reluctant to draw even 5,1 so it didn't come as a big surprise to me. But you need to try to know... Seems an average of what my bees regards as natural is 5,3 mm. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden http://beeman.se ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:22:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: pesticide resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline At issue is whether insects *change* in response to pesticides or if the resistant individuals are already there. Entomologists seem to agree they are already there "when a pesticide is first used". > Repeated use of the same class of pesticides to control a pest can cause undesirable changes in the gene pool of a pest leading to another form of artificial selection, pesticide resistance. *When a pesticide is first used*, a small proportion of the pest population may survive exposure to the material due to their distinct genetic makeup. These individuals pass along the genes for resistance to the next generation. Subsequent uses of the pesticide increase the proportion of less-susceptible individuals in the population. Through this process of selection, the population gradually develops resistance to the pesticide. Worldwide, more than 500 species of insects, mites, and spiders have developed some level of pesticide resistance. The twospotted spider mite is a pest of most fruit crops and is notorious for rapidly developing resistance to miticides. > Selection for resistance can occur if a small proportion of the insect population is able to survive treatment with insecticide. These rare resistant individuals can reproduce and pass on their resistance to the offspring. If an insecticide with the same mode of action is repeatedly used against this population, an even greater proportion will survive. Ultimately, the once-effective product no longer controls the resistant population. Excerpt from "Fruit Crop Ecology and Management", Chapter 2: Managing the Community of Pests and Beneficials by Larry Gut, Annemiek Schilder, Rufus Isaacs and Patricia McManus. * * * > How Do Pests Become Resistant? > Pest population is exposed to pesticide > Some members of the pest population survive because of a genetic predisposition to be resistant to pesticide > Surviving members of the pest population pass along the genetic resistant to their offspring Pesticide Resistance Stephen J. Toth, Jr. Wayne G. Buhler Department of Entomology Department of Horticultural Science North Carolina State University North Carolina State University ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 10:40:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: US vs Canada on CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I find it interesting that Canada which has well run provincial apiculture departments can make concise assessments of the CCD situation in their respective provinces. This contrasts with the circus in the US where we rely on commercial interests and a yes/no survey from anyone with a hive of bees to collect data that we deem as proof we have CCD in 35 states. We heard from Ontario earlier this season on the assessment there here is the Alberta assessment. >From AgriSuccess Express 5. Canadian beekeepers dodge colony collapse disorder by D. Larraine Andrews This spring Canadian beekeepers were on the alert for a potential new threat to their colonies called colony collapse disorder. The mysterious illness, which decimates the worker bee population in the hive, was responsible for the collapse of thousands of colonies across the United States. Paul Laflamme, unit leader with the pest management systems group at Alberta Agriculture and Food, reports that to date there have been no reported cases of CCD in Canada. A survey this summer of Alberta beekeepers showed that over-wintering losses, which are normally about 15 per cent, were almost double that amount this past winter. Laflamme says there were a number of factors that combined to produce this result, but CCD was not one of them. A major factor was a longer than normal winter with early snow and a cool wet spring. This delayed flowering as much as three weeks and limited foraging sources. Another cause of the high losses was the failure of varroa mite treatments that were not as effective as hoped. Now a consortium of researchers in the U.S. has found a significant connection between the Israeli acute paralysis virus and CCD. Bees imported from Australia are being implicated as a source of the virus. Laflamme says that Australian bees have been imported into Canada for over twenty years with no serious problems. "Now we know a possible cause (for CCD) we can investigate if the bees have any potential to carry the virus." He points out that the Canadian climate is so different from the U.S. that the disease may not manifest itself in the same form. He adds that anecdotal evidence suggests that Australian bees do not over-winter as well in Canadian hives. This spring, provincial apiculturist Medhat Nasr collected samples from colonies with high over-wintering losses for analysis. His article on best management practices appears in the August issue of Alberta Bee News published by the Alberta Beekeepers Association. Check the website at www.albertabeekeepers.org . ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:47:09 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...he concluded that the queens he raised from "wild stock" didn't perform any better than the commercial bees... <...> his suggestion that the answer might lie with the mites rather than the bees raised more questions than it answered. This can be shown to be one way or the other by: - placing a few managed colonies, with marked queens, that are collapsing (presumably from virulent mites) in the middle of the Arnot forest - placing several artificial, frameless top-bar type bee hives with swarm lure around the same location - feeding the collapsing colonies like crazy to get swarming due to crowding conditions - observing the artificial hive colonies started with marked queens for survival for several years If you don't see collapse in the top bar hives with marked queens, you'll know it's not the mites or viruses. I expect, you will not see a collapse. By the way, you don't have to do this in the Arnot forest. Just set up a few top bars. Dennis Murrell's untreated top bar hives do just fine. I live an area where managed hives with mites will collapse. And yet, feral colonies seem to do all right. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:53:21 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I talked with Tom about this. The other candidate was bee behavior. Small colonies that swarmed often breaking the brood cycle. This behavior is of some benefit to the swarms where most of the mites will stay behind in the capped cells of the swarm-source colonies. Common logic would say these swarm-source colonies should collapse much faster once the new queen's offspring started emerging. Did Tom observe this? The swarm-source colonies in the Arnot forest, I think, survice just fine for years. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:29:22 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: English ivy revisited. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Chris, >>Perhaps you could let us know the latitude, altitude and current temperature range of your ivy flowers as well as the first date you saw the blossoms open. I am not sure of my precise coordinates (Smithtown, NY) but I am 1.5 hours almost directly east of NYC. My approx. location is 40.45N and 73.85W. Our daytime temps are in the 70's and 80's F and nighttime temps in the 50's and 60's F. I saw the bees working the ivy over the weekend. Judging by the % of the open flowers (about 25% last weekend), the bloom probably started in mid-September. I hope this is helpful. It's been another mostly dry August and September. [Do dry conditions trigger ivy to secrete better?] I am just glad there is something for the bees to work. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:47:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: English ivy revisited. In-Reply-To: <200709241642.l8OGV8Zn029449@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I am not sure of my precise coordinates (Smithtown, NY) 40°50'49.31"N by 73°14'8.38"W Aaron Morris - thinking Google Earth ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:35:32 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: English ivy revisited. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have seen ivy used here as a ground cover and a tree trunk climber. From what I've seen, it's only the latter that produces lateral branches that have blossoms. Is it also the case in Ireland and the UK? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 10:54:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: SC test In-Reply-To: <46F7639C.5080200@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit P-O Gustafsson writes: I decided to give it one last try when wintering. Moved all brood frames down to bottom box and gave them a full frame of SC foundation on top. Same result, bees totally rebuilt it to the same mess. Reply: Geeh, sorry to hear you had problems following what Dennis suggested for drawing out SC. But hearing this, perhaps you should contact Erik Osterlund in Sweden or Hans-Otto Johnssen in Norway for learning how to get it drawn out properly as they have done so okay with help from me. Then with hands on and actual seeing maybe you will learn what to do better. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 16:39:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: English ivy revisited. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've never noticed flowers on ground ivy; they'd be most unusual, but I can't say for certain that they never occur. Flowers do appear within a couple of feet of the ground at times. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 22:00:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: English ivy revisited. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar wrote: > I am not sure of my precise coordinates (Smithtown, NY) Try this: http://www.satsig.net/maps/lat-long-finder.htm Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 22:17:45 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: English ivy revisited. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron wrote: > 40°50'49.31"N by 73°14'8.38"W > > Aaron Morris - thinking Google Earth At least the co-ordinates will be up-to-date - more than can be said for the images! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 00:09:33 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: US vs Canada on CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I find it interesting that Canada which has well run provincial apiculture > departments can make concise assessments of the CCD situation in their > respective provinces. This contrasts with the circus in the US where we rely > on commercial interests and a yes/no survey from anyone with a hive of bees... Well, lacking anything even close to a complete set of state apiarists and inspectors in every state in the USA, might it not be better to recognize that what resources are available are giving much of themselves, without really asking anything in return? Might one think to say "Thanks!", rather than dissing those who are giving of their time and effort with terms like "circus" and "commercial interests"? And yeah, it is easy to make a concise assessment of the number zero. Its much less easy to assess non-zero integers. Now, you might dismiss the survey work as "imaginary numbers", but I think it is fair to at least agree that we have a more than trivial count of cases in the USA. The detailed data is being kept close to the chest to protect the privacy of those who report, but there are some pretty significant operations that have reported, been contacted, and have offered samples which will be the basis for figuring out exactly what the problem is. And no one offers the survey alone as "proof" of anything. Everyone realizes that the data is self-reported, and has an inherent error rate. So what exactly is your beef here, other than a realization that the US has starved beekeeping extension and research to the point of not really having much of anything in the way of a "force" to deal with something like this when it crops up? Yes, it is a very different world in Canada. They apparently have universal free health care, not just for humans, but also for bees. Good for them! We should do the same here, but let's not insult what resources we do have, moreso when they volunteered for this duty, and are under extensive fire for some apparently sloppy work that may or may not turn out to even be correct in basic assumptions. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:52:16 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "waldig@netzero.com" > > This behavior is of some benefit to the swarms where most of the > mites will stay behind in the capped cells of the swarm-source > colonies. Don't forget the colonies that swarmed will have 3-4 weeks without laying queen until virgin is mated. During this time many mites will die and no new produced. Wouldn't surprise me if the parent colony is the one that loose most mites due to swarming. Mites only have flying field bees to live on for some time. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden http://beeman.se ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 06:48:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Irwin_Harlton?= Subject: Re: health, pleasure and a comfortable living! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit How do you compete with chinese honey which has been entering canada and the US,in January it was .34/lb and may .27/lb ? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:30:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lanfeust Subject: Re: SC test In-Reply-To: <46F7639C.5080200@gmail.com> Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > They didn't like that foundation at all, made a total mess of it > trying to rebuild to 5,3. About same experience with same results here (Qc, Canada, Russian bees). I tried 2 years in a row with nucs. Sometimes they ignore 4.9 foundation frames, sometimes they re-built combs in between 2 foundations. I'll keep trying anyway to make my own mind on the question. Nevertheless, if someone around had 4.9 drawn frames, I would save time and effort. Hervé Laval, Qc, Canada -- Hervé www.emelys.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 08:07:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies In-Reply-To: <000301c7fe31$b80ef8b0$6401a8c0@NOTEBOOK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Marron wrote: > If mites just cloned themselves, there would be no variation and they could > not adapt. Since it's obviously true that mites DO adapt, especially to our > pesticides then they are not just clones of each other. There is a revolution going on now in the genetic world. Much of what was thought to be true is not. One interesting find is that bacteria can "infect" the egg DNA of invertebrates with their DNA so the mites could easily be clones but get pesticide resistance from the bacteria! So you can have clones and you can have adaptation at the same time. Prior studies found this but discounted the DNA bacteria snippets as contamination of the sample. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 08:08:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Re: SC test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi PO, Thanks for the report. I suspect that different bees draw out different minimum cell size. Do you run a variety of the dark northern bee? It could be very different than the more southern type bees we run in the US. Do you still run a tbh? If so, do you see the decrease in cell size down the length of the comb? What are the minimum cell sizes seen in the natural brood comb? I think the proper fit between the seasonal change in bee size and brood rearing in the appropriate cell size is more important than an absolute cell size. I also suspect that some problems result when forcing bees to an arbitrary size. That's one of the differences between natural cell and small cell beekeeping. Eric Osterlund, in Sweden, has experienced success with a traditional small cell approach. He's one of the propagators of the Elgon bee and an editor of the Bitidningen. The bees he uses might be different than yours, as he traveled with Brother Adam and incorporated several different races into the Elgon. Regards Dennis ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:47:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: health, pleasure and a comfortable living! Comments: To: "Peter L. Borst" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings Folks: Peter astutely quotes, "However, his warning is that the man whose sole aim is the accumulation of wealth would better let bees alone; but all bee keepers agree that health, pleasure and a comfortable living are found in intelligently raising honeybees." In a similar vein, Rachel Carson, too, warns against the human obsession to BEND the nature, ultimately, to our own demise: "Under prmitive agricultural conditions the farmer had few insect [or mite] problems. These arose with the intensification of agriculture—-the devotion of immense acreages to a single crop [such as almonds]. Such a system set the stage for explosive increases in specific insect [or mite] populations. Single-crop farming does not take advantage of the principles by which nature works; it is agriculture as an engineer might conceive it to be. Nature has introduced great variety into the landscape, but man has displayed a passion for simplifying it. Thus he undoes the built-in checks and balances by which nature holds the species within bounds. One important natural check is a limit on the amount of suitable habitat for each species. Obviously then, an insect [or a mite] that lives on wheat [honey bees] can build up its population to much higher levels on a farm devoted to wheat [monocrop pollination] than on one in which wheat is intermingled with other crops to which the insect is not adapted"(Silent Spring 10; emphases are mine). Just a thought, as the bee-season grinds down gradually to a halt. Yoon ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:20:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies In-Reply-To: <46F8F9F6.2040902@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill wrote: >>>>One interesting find is that bacteria can "infect" the egg DNA of invertebrates ...<<<< Bill, did you mean bacteria? Virus perhaps? I want to research something on this. Do you have a source? Thanks, Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:17:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: FFA & AG Class presentations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks, I am planning to do a number of presentations at schools in our area. These will be in the Agro business classes. Does anyone do the same thing? Does anyone have a guideline to follow? If any would, please send me some guidelines or format that has proved to work that will be of more interest to the students. I would like to encourage some to get into beekeeping at an early time in life. If the presentation is interesting to them I believe we can get some interest started. At least I will give it a try. If you would send the guidelines or special things to discuss to me off list. smoothevans@pclnet.net Thanks, Lionel ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 22:31:51 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick said: > Since it's obviously true that mites DO adapt, especially to our > pesticides then they are not just clones of each other. and Bill: > so the mites could easily be clones but get pesticide resistance > from the bacteria! There is evidence out there of Varroa adapting to pesticides, but that adaptation seems to be via old-fashioned mutation rather than anything more exotic. Zach Huang's group's work for example: http://www.cyberbee.net/huangpub/2002JAR.pdf shows that there were six mutations which appear to have happened since the separation of the two main types of V destructor. The assumption is that this variation has occurred since the jump to A. mellifera, and shows that there is some diversity reappearing in this mite since its massive bottleneck at the point of the switch from A. cerana. One or more of the changes in this gene could have converted the sodium channel protein to a pyrethroid-insensitive version - simply by mutation and not involving any other means of affecting the expression of a gene. There is a useful discussion of the multiple sites of change which can lead to resistance here: http://lasi.group.shef.ac.uk/pdf/Martin%2057.pdf The starting point for this discussion was the likelihood of Varroa adapting, in an isolated situation, to become less virulent. I doubt very much that Varroa could achieve this for two reasons: - Varroa may be accumulating mutations in genes under heavy selection, but it still seems unlikely that this kind of variation can easily yield less virulent forms - less virulent Varroa will almost always be at a selective disadvantage when types that multiply more effectively are around. In mixed colonies, as where such types arise through mutation, how can it out-compete the established type if it is less virulent? all the best Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:07:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Bill wrote: >>>>One interesting find is that bacteria can "infect" the egg >DNA of invertebrates ...<<<< This is another new field of discovery and one that may require a complete rewrite of the text books on genetics, agriculture, and medicine. > As if natural variation were not enough, microbes also "cheat." Not content to rely on their own genetic defenses, bacteria and many viruses are capable of "borrowing" the resistance of other species. Many researchers believe that this process, known as horizontal gene transfer, is the real cause of the rapid growth of antibiotic resistance in a host of organisms, from the farmyard to the hospital. In horizontal gene transfer, the resistance genes from one bacterial strain are transferred as an intact plasmid (a circular pseudochromosome frequent in many bacteria) or as a portion of pseudosexually transmitted piece of broken DNA to a close relative or even to a comparatively unrelated species. Researchers think that the bacterium Haemophilus influenzae, the cause of ear infections, picked up resistance during a natural gene transfer from a harmless strain of Escherichia coli, the gut bacteria. from The Red Queen's Race http://pubs.acs.org/hotartcl/tcaw/99/jan/queen.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:37:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I talked with Tom about this. The other candidate was bee behavior. Small colonies that swarmed often breaking the brood cycle. That would be highly dependant behavior as well as the size void. Ferals that I keep very close tabs on (one in a bee tree and several others in logs slated to be cut-out) in my front yard, threw a single prime swarm and the impulse subsided the rest of the season. IMO, it is false to insinuate that ferals are all small colonies. >Don't forget the colonies that swarmed will have 3-4 weeks without >laying queen until virgin is mated. Not necessarily true considering the varied environmental influences. Also, I am not aware of any study concerning the swarming impulse in feral honeybees found in a woodland habitat. The nest structures would be vastly different from that found in domestic bee hives, and may have an influence on swarming impulse Or delaying of departure. So there is really not sufficient evidence YET to support the suggested candidates for resistance in feral colonies. Regards, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles FeralBeeProject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:38:08 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: US and Canada and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I personally have no doubt that CCD is is a 'real thing', but I know for certain that the reported incidents are greatly exaggerated. That is to say that the number of hives lost following an observation of lots of brood, a laying queen, and almost no nurse or worker bees is far lower than the numbers being reported. I recently saw one report of 400 hives lost to CCD where the 'evidence' was 'empty hives', no brood and no queen and without hive moth or SHB damage. Clearly not the symptoms agreed as evidence of CCD. Nonetheless, I think the differences reported between Canada and the US are significant and IMHO speak loudly for CCD being stress related. I just spent some time in Canada. I was surprised to see petrol at $US 1 a liter. We are mightly complaining about prices of $US .70 a liter. 43% higher in Canada! What would our pollination industry look like with petrol prices 43% higher? Might it again be economical for farmers to again 'keep their own bees', or lease local bees because the long-distance guys can't compete due to petrol prices? One of the largest pollinators on the East Coast, with 8,000 hives and full-blown CCD, once said at a meeting that his hives *averaged* 20 moves a year and *eight queens each (a year)*. If that is not extreme stress, what is? (This is not beekeeping...but I don't know what else to call it.) So, the real culprit in CCD is unreasonably low oil prices...AKA, Saudi Arabia and the US political system. Want to bet on whether we will ever see a research paper with such a conclusion? Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 15:54:04 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Don't forget the colonies that swarmed will have 3-4 weeks without laying queen until virgin is mated. During this time many mites will die and no new produced. Wouldn't surprise me if the parent colony is the one that loose most mites due to swarming. Mites only have flying field bees to live on for some time. The time span from the last worker brood emergence to new eggs is about a week in my experience. Mites get really concentrated on the last batch of brood from the departing queen's last eggs. [Upwards of 75% of all the mites in a hive are in capped brood.] This weakens the last emerging nurse bees. Likewise, the majority of the phoretic mites attacks the first batch of brood from the new laying queen weakening them. During the broodless period between the queens, a lot of the bees are idle or prepping cells for new eggs. [There is no open brood to demand extra nutrition.] Flying is much decreased compared to other colonies. A lot of mites survive to do more damage. Literature seems to support this. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:24:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: An open letter regarding Colony Collapse Disorder and science MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEE-L members: I received the following from Dr. Diana L. Cox-Foster (who is not a subscriber to BEE-L, hence she cannot post to the list) with a request to forward it to BEE-L. Sincerely, Aaron Morris An open letter regarding Colony Collapse Disorder and science September 25, 2007 We encourage constructive discussion and welcome re-examination of our findings and conclusions regarding CCD, as reported in Science magazine. However, common sense and ethical rules in science require that such critiques are made with full disclosure of methods and conflict of interest. The beekeeping community should accept no less, and we feel that this has sometimes been overlooked in the case of CCD discussions. In particular, Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk of Bee Alert Technology, Inc. has commented extensively on specific strategies for assessing the causes of Colony Collapse Disorder and on our recently published study on CCD correlates. He has been interviewed frequently in the media and has provided quotes to Science magazine as well as other media that have been widely cited. Among those comments were vague statements to the effect that he has evidence relevant to the distribution of Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus (IAPV) in CCD and healthy bee colonies. These claims are fleshed out in his open letter of Sept. 10 (published online at www.beeculture.com), but are missing critical elements (i.e., data) for evaluation. The work reported in Science magazine was performed by academic, federal and state investigators who have no vested interest in its outcome. None of us have patents or intellectual property of any kind that would benefit from finding any result. We have no instrument to sell or rent. We do not offer fee-for-service screening. We have not applied for patents, grants or contracts. The USDA has an internal budget, and Penn State has modest support from USDA and the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture. The Columbia site volunteered hundreds of thousands of dollars in supplies and personnel time because, as faculty in a School of Public Health, they were persuaded by Drs. Cox-Foster and Pettis that the need was urgent and that this was an appropriate area for them to contribute to global health and welfare. Our survey was initially performed using pyrosequencing. Although this technology is not yet widely available it is based on standard molecular biological techniques that are accepted by the scientific community. Recent prominent examples that include sequencing of the genome of a Neanderthal and of James Watson, Nobel laureate and co-discover of the DNA double helix. We followed our initial work with well established testing methods that included culture, manual spore counts, polymerase chain reaction (PCR) measurements of multiple gene regions of the disease organisms, and extensive sequencing by conventional means. The PCR measurements were performed in two independent laboratories by scientists blind to sample codes. Thus, we have reported results that are consistent and objective. Contrary to some claims on the web, these analyses were performed on hundreds of bee samples from multiple operations having CCD and healthy bees from different origins. PCR has become one of the best established tools in microbiology. Since Kary Mullis received the Nobel Prize for discovering PCR in 1993, it has literally revolutionized management of outbreaks of infectious disease and environmental surveillance. The method is sensitive, specific, and inexpensive. Hundreds of assays have been approved by the FDA and other regulatory bodies concerned with monitoring disease, blood products, and food and water safety. The term "PCR" retrieves more than 299,000 articles in PubMed, the database of the National Library of Medicine. In contrast, IVDS is a method available only through Dr. Bromenshenk and colleagues. The term IVDS retrieves no relevant articles in PubMed (only references to "in vitro devices" and "intravertebral disks"). A search for IVDS on the more inclusive 'Scopus' database yields 5 relevant publications authored by IVDS developer Charles Wick since 1999 (four involving sorting of a single bacteriophage isolate, and one involving bacteria) and 7 patent citations. A query using "PCR" in the Scopus database retrieves 265,394 research articles and 252,155 patent citations. PCR is a widely used technique in bee pathology and disease, that relies on specific matching between diagnostic 'primers' and any DNA (or processed RNA) source. This technique has worldwide acceptance as a regulatory and research tool. Given the sequencing of the bee genome as well as the genomes of the major bacterial, fungal, and viral pathogens of bees, the potential targets for PCR-based diagnostics are almost limitless, allowing multiple tests to confirm or refute the presence of pathogens. Most importantly, PCR is easily followed by the determination of exact DNA/RNA sequences of the targeted pathogen or parasite. There is simply nothing more diagnostic of an organism than its genetic code. For several months, we have encouraged the primaries behind IVDS (Dr. Bromenshenk at Bee Alert Technologies, Dr. Charles Wick at the U.S. Army's Edgewood Chemical and Biological Center, and Mr. David Wick, the President and CEO of Biological Virus Screening, inc., the business arm of IVDS, http://www.bvs-inc.us/) to carry out experiments showing that IVDS is specific, sensitive and reliable with respect to bee viruses. Given the identification of over 19 different viruses in honey bees worldwide, it is not an easy matter to confirm specificity. These encouragements have been made in good faith, since it is always better to have alternate technologies on the table. Based on published research, IVDS specificity has not been adequately tested against bee viruses. Such tests could start by analyzing pure, known viruses and should be followed by attempts to recover viral signals from bees with known infections. Such evaluations have been completed on every diagnostic test for bee viruses since the 1970's, and they are also required for IVDS before adopting this technology. We and other researchers are concerned that the tight size variation of most bee viruses (28-30 nm) and the relatively large error implicit in IVDS (+/- 4 nm) precludes a completely specific diagnostic. The next stage is to assess sensitivity. PCR is currently considered to be the most sensitive method available for diagnostics, capable of capturing even single nucleic acid molecules. Such sensitivity may not be needed here; however, we must at least know the extent to which IVDS is able to distinguish viral particles from one another and from the natural material found in ground up samples. From the available postings (again restricted to http://www.bvs-inc.us/), it is not apparent that the required calibration tests are planned, let alone conducted). These are urgently needed prior to using IVDS to weigh in on viral distributions in bees in different regions of the US or the world. It is conceivable that IVDS may prove useful; and we encourage the development of new and complementary diagnostic techniques. However, it is premature to state that IVDS has ruled out a pathogen found by accepted methods. Dr. Bromenshenk and colleagues claim to have found 4-6 new viruses in Australian and American based on IVDS size peaks. This is intriguing, and we and others look forward to seeing the data when it is reported for peer review. According to their own press reports, we understand that they found Nosema ceranae and an unidentified iflavirus in CCD bees (http://pub.ucsf.edu/today/cache/feature/200704251.html). IAPV and KBV are dicistroviruses, not iflaviruses. Dicistroviruses are easily distinguished from iflaviruses using molecular methods. Discistroviruses have an intergenic region and encode structural proteins at the 3'-end rather than the 5' end of their genomes. It has been stated in this and other forums that we have been secretive. Our initial findings were presented in meetings of the Institute of Medicine in Washington DC in April 2007, and at the annual meeting of the Regional Centers of Excellence in Biodefense and Emerging Infectious Diseases in St Louis In April 2007. IAPV was identified as a candidate in these presentations. Regretfully, we could not do more than list all candidates prior to conducting a more detailed analysis and submitting the data for rigorous peer review at Science magazine. These experiments added months to the process but served to downgrade the importance of tens of candidate pathogens and parasites. We hope our paper, the first published on CCD research, helps pave the way for additional field, lab and survey approaches to understanding CCD. Many researchers have become attracted to this problem, a good thing for beekeepers and for the resolution of this and other bee maladies. We have not claimed that IAPV is the cause of CCD. We have said that IAPV is highly associated with CCD and should be pursued as a potential trigger for disease. We also have not said that bee imports from Australia should be banned; in fact, this is not a decision to be made by any of the members of this research group. Indeed, the fact that IAPV has now been found in the US, Australia, Israel and China (royal jelly samples) means that the virus may already be globally distributed. The IAPV finding does, however, provide the community with an opportunity to test for the presence of this virus in colonies, imports and exports, using inexpensive, specific assays. No one would argue that unwitting transfer of infected materials-whether bees, food products or animals-is a good thing. Thus, we have published detailed descriptions of the PCR sets we used and have already provided standards at no cost to laboratories who wish to set up their own tests. This is the same policy the Columbia group (then at the University of California) applied when West Nile virus was discovered in 1999, and in subsequent work that has received less media attention. The bee industry deserves state-of-the-art accurate science and full disclosure. W. Ian Lipkin Thomas Briese Sean Conlan Gustavo Palacios Columbia University Diana Cox-Foster Edward Holmes Pennsylvania State University Dennis van Engelsdorp Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture Jay Evans Jeffrey Pettis United States Department of Agriculture Nancy Moran University of Arizona, Tucson ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:33:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > The movement of genes between unrelated species (horizontal gene transfer, or HGT) may happen much more frequently than previously believed, allowing species to acquire new genes and functions extremely quickly, say scientists from the University of Rochester and the J. Craig Venter Institute. > Their new study, appearing Science, is based on the discovery of a copy of the entire genome of a bacterial parasite residing inside the genome of its host species. If such gene transfers happen frequently between bacteria and multicellular organisms, it will have dramatic implications for evolutionary theory. > "It didn't seem possible at first," says Jack Werren, professor of biology at the University of Rochester. "This parasite [Wolbachia] has implanted itself inside the cells of 70 percent of the world's invertebrates, coevolving with them. And now, we've found at least one species where the parasite's entire — or nearly entire — genome has been absorbed and integrated into the host's. The host's genes actually hold the coding information for a completely separate species." Horizontal Gene Transfer Vastly Underestimated, Suggests New Study http://tinyurl.com/267x87 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:52:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: … the majority of >the phoretic mites attacks the first batch of brood from the new laying queen weakening >them. That’s a good point Waldemar! Also, as mentioned earlier by a poster, a brood break after swarming, potentially 3 to 4 weeks can perhaps contribute to mite reduction. But in my observations, most varroa invasion of cells during swarming season is concentrated very heavily in drone cells which take about 24 days to hatch, basically carrying most mites through most of the broodless period. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles FeralBeeProject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 01:00:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: An open letter regarding Colony Collapse Disorder and scie nce Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...thoughtful, well written, and reassuring. this gives me some confidence that there is some good research happening. deknow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:30:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit J. Waggle wrote: >Also, as mentioned earlier by a poster, a brood break after swarming, >potentially 3 to 4 weeks can perhaps contribute to mite reduction. >But in my observations, most varroa invasion of cells during swarming >season is concentrated very heavily in drone cells which take about 24 >days to hatch, basically carrying most mites through most of the broodless >period. At issue is not whether the mites will survive a broodless period such as exists in both a swarm and the parent colony that swarmed. It is the long break in varroa reproduction that prevents the varroa population from getting too large. They are unable to reproduce in broodless colonies. As I pointed out: In the study of shook swarms, the unsplit control colonies had twice as many bees at the end of the season but FIVE TIMES as many varroa mites. I think that natural swarming is an ideal mechanism for ridding a colony of bees of many pests, and the parent gets a new queen out of the deal. I discussed the idea of splitting colonies annually (thereby simulating this process) in my July article in the American Bee Journal. -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:32:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies In-Reply-To: <46F8CC40.8020905@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit P-O Gustafsson wrote:Don't forget the colonies that swarmed will have 3-4 weeks without laying queen until virgin is mated. The time may be less than this. Usually, there are queen cells in various stages of development, some pretty advanced, before the parent colony swarms. And, seeing that the mites enter the cells when they are being capped, the time could be less than the three weeks stated above. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:38:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: SC test In-Reply-To: <1190719841.23179.1212465193@webmail.messagingengine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lanfeust wrote: > They didn't like that foundation at all, made a total mess of it > trying to rebuild to 5,3. About same experience with same results here (Qc, Canada, Russian bees). Hervé Laval, Qc, Canada I'm not a particularly enthusiastic proponent for small cell, but haven't I read earlier in some postings that to get from LC to SC about two intermediary stages need to be gone through before the bees can adapt to SC? Might try running from large cell to small cell through two intermediate, downsizing cell foundations to see what happens. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:32:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: SC test In-Reply-To: <829918.29439.qm@web53411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike Stoops: Since I posted earlier for giving references to beekeepers in Sweden and Norway who had SC drawn out okay to go see and talk to. Let me now say, with piece meal tactics of 1-3 frames SC wanting to be drawn out, the odds for good drawing out, due to short term memory of bees from sizes LC immediately adjacent each side, makes for majority done wrong most times. The ones that were serious and visited like Erik Osterlund and Hans-Otto Johnsen for hands on and seeing first hand, have done fine and are now helping others in their respective locals/regions. Further if you really want to do it and cannot do full shakedowns, or full package startups with culling for 1-2 years to accomplish, let it be known again that HSC Honey Super Cell for 4.9ID is now on market for instant regression down with fully drawnout plastic frames! While the top is ID 4.9mm the bottom of cells is 4.8mm ID and right on, and is where the royal jelly is anyways for trigger for varroa reproduction, with halfway up the cells 4.85mm ID and thus pretty close to old 4.83mm sizings of long ago, pre-malady times for the most part. So start packages or shakedowns on HSC and then when started with even 3 frame nucs, then feed in the waxed 4.9mm from Dadant and just keep building back up. Lot simpler then when I did it and made own foundation from scratch back thru first and second regressions down...... So play with 1-3 or go for it whole hog and roll on!!! Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 01:39:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: US vs Canada on CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 00:09:33 -0400, James Fischer wrote: Might one think to say >"Thanks!", >rather than dissing those who are giving of their time and effort with >terms like "circus" and "commercial interests"? > whoa down boy! i was commenting on how trumped up the whole CCD story has been here in the USA and alluding to possible reasons why that might be (the now infamous CCD map and survey). my comments did not question the science but questioned the hype. you know with all of the crap published on CDD in the media it would be refreshing to see a piece on how *commercial* interests have distorted the CCD story every step of the way. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:31:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: CCD Circus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Brian Fredericksen wrote: > the circus in the US where we rely on commercial interests and a yes/no survey from anyone with a hive of bees to collect data that we deem as proof we have CCD in 35 states. * I simply do not see how anyone who was familiar with the methodology and the thoroughness of the work would say something like this. To characterize it as a "yes/no survey" is plain wrong. > The number of respondents to the Bee Alert National Bee Loss Survey has increased steadily. The data base now includes a total of 625 valid surveys, received as of 1 June 2007. Because of the voluntary nature of data accumulation, the data do not represent a statistically designed sampling effort. > Despite these limitations on the data, the large number of respondents has provided us with extensive coverage of the current state of the CCD problem in the U.S. and Canada. To date, we have received surveys from beekeepers in 43 states and five provinces, obtained obtained more than a quarter of a million data points, and have reports of CCD occurring over the last 16 months in 35 states and at least one province. > Respondents across all sizes of operation indicate high frequencies of severe bee losses over the past six months. Reversing our earlier report, smaller operations are more likely to have suffered more severe losses than normal. The extent of severe losses increases in intermediately sized operations, but drops again among the largest beekeepers reporting through our survey. Overall, however, 40 percent of respondents report severe losses this past winter compared to 48 percent who reported average or lower losses. > We are continuing to extract information from the more than a quarter million answers to our surveys. We're currently looking at medications used, which is a complex task given the diverse array of management practices, ranging from organic beekeepers to those who use multiple materials in attempts to control or treat for diseases and mites. > All in all, we are impressed by the candor of our reporting beekeepers. Our preliminary observations are that the use of fumagillin and related products to control nosema is on the rise among large scale (>1,000 colony) beekeepers. Also, some organic beekeepers have experienced CCD. see: National Honey Bee Loss Survey Updated Survey Results, June 1, 2007: Correlation of Common Pathogens with CCD http://tinyurl.com/yohbft ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 07:55:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: An open letter regarding Colony Collapse Disorder and science MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Thanks to those which took the time to author the "open letter"! >We have not claimed that IAPV is the cause of CCD. Vauge wording in press releases indeed gave the impression. The Science article gave the impression. CNN gave the impression. Papers all over the country gave the impression. Those of us familiar with bees & virus said. " Now just wait a minute!" when the news broke. The IAPV/ *cause of CCD * hypothesis was pulled from CNN within hours. >We have said that IAPV is highly associated with CCD and should be pursued as a potential trigger for disease. Bailey tried for decades to stir beekeeping virus research but his pleas fell mostly on deaf ears. Mainly because all you can do is document. The only solutions for virus issues are well known among most beekeepers. We will never be able to drop by Mann Lake and pick up a cure for IAPV (or other viruses) in our hives. >We also have not said that bee imports from Australia should be banned; in fact, this is not a decision to be made by any of the members of this research group. There are indeed reasons why an Australian import in the future could be stopped but IAPV is not the reason. >Indeed, the fact that IAPV has now been found in the US, Australia, Israel and China (royal jelly samples) means that the virus may already be globally distributed. Why was the above left out of news releases? The best point about the CCD research going on is that we will learn things about bees we never knew before. Many will not have a bearing on CCD but will be valuable in the future. > The bee industry deserves state-of-the-art accurate science and full disclosure. The bee industry is on the endangered spiecies list. Less commercial beekeepers each year. The number one value of the industry to the U.S. is pollination. We still have not figured a way to replace the lost feral colonies. The USDA-ARS has said over and over the U.S. lost over 90% of the feral colonies after mites entered the U.S.in the 1980's. Many areas seem to getting small isolated populations back but the last estimate I heard said we are still missing 80% of feral colonies twenty years later. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Midwest beekeeper -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:45:01 -0500 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: FFA & Ag Class Presentations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hello Lionel, > I have a number of presentations that are on power point that > I'd be happy to share with you. They run about 30-45 > minutes in length if you do some elaboration along the way. > Are these one time presentations? > Does your local club or state association have a youth > scholarship program? > If not I'd be happy to provide you with guidelines for > starting one in your area. Anyone interested can contact me > for the forms and study info. > Glad to help get kids started. We have now started over a > dozen youngsters in Kansas and Texas. One of them now has > 200 hives. It's priceless to see kids get excited about bees > and do well. > Also have a guideline for a talk without power point that > I'll send to you or anyone wanting help with youth presentations. > > Tim Tucker > tuckerb@hit.net ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:49:25 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: An open letter regarding Colony Collapse Disorder and scie nce Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Vauge wording in press releases indeed gave the impression. The Science article gave the impression. CNN gave the impression. Papers all over the country gave the impression. And caused politicians like Chuck Schumer from NY to push for banning Aussie imports. This was reported by Newsday and other NY papers. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:58:47 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: US and Canada and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline With reference to the commercial beekeeper who reported his hives averaging 20 moves a year and eight queens, Waldmer asked "Do his queens perish on long trips or due to chems?" I do not believe he was reporting on 'deaths' of queens. I believe he was saying how many times a year he felt it necessary to replace a queen in order to keep hives with young, vigorous queens capable of producing large brood nests. Queens start to 'fail' he said, because of frequent moving, bad mating, and chems in beeswax and otherwise. (Some, and perhaps most, of these guys have active chemical treatments going on 'most' of the time.) Bees primarily forage to support their brood. Small brood nests require fewer foragers, aka fewer pollinators. These guys (large pollinators) do not look for old queens. Typically, they install a cell in the upper part of the brood nest, preferably in a frame packed with honey, and rely on the emerging queen to replace the existing queen. I have attended presentations with claims that the success rate of this procedure exceeds 90%. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 12:20:33 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: US and Canada and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Waldemar wants to know more about how large commercial pollinators introduce new queens. In the spring, when the pollinators are moving hives to new sites every 2-3 weeks, the hives are not usually supered (lots of exceptions, here). But it has been found that a queen will not usually bother a queen cell that is pushed into a frame full of honey. (She would not have any reason to be on that frame.) No, of course, the pollinators cannot and do not mark queens after they emerge. They judge whether the new queen has successfully mated and survived by what happens in the brood nest. When one 'manages' 1,000-8,000 hives it becomes a 24/7 operation and one knows what is going on almost by instinct. Believe me, a hive headed by a new well-mated queen behaves entirely different than one headed by a hive with a queen that has been laying for 3-4 months and has endured 3-5 moves. These guys do things 'by the numbers', and pay little attention to individual hives. If their experience says they do better requeening every 3 moves (as an example) they will requeen an entire truckload (or more) on that schedule, without regard to how individual hives are doing. If a few hives do not have their new queen 'take', they catch up at the next requeening. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:49:22 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: SC test In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" > I suspect that different bees draw out different minimum cell size. Do you > run a variety of the dark northern bee? It could be very different than the > more southern type bees we run in the US. Hi Dennis, My bees were deliberately a mix of many races some years ago when I started this closed population breeding program I'm running. Also mixed in "Elgon" bees, I still see some sooty dark drones from Monticola. Not much (if any) left of the old Scandinavian bee in my mix as they didn't perform well. Mostly Buckfast left, selected to do well in my short intense season on lat 60. > > Do you still run a tbh? If so, do you see the decrease in cell size down the > length of the comb? What are the minimum cell sizes seen in the natural > brood comb? Never tried tbh. Not enough time for testing everything... Guess I could try some frames with starter strips? After 3 frames with drones they might do some worker brood too in spring... > Eric Osterlund, in Sweden, has experienced success with a traditional small > cell approach. Erik is lucky to live in an area where Varroa arrived very late. I doubt he has had mites long enough to experience the problem that comes with the increased virus load after the first years of relatively harmless mite infestation. Time will show. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden http://beeman.se ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:18:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD Circus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Why is it that 95% of the media reports of affected beekeepers typically include information that makes it clear to an experienced beekeeper that the reported bee loss is not CCD? how many of these uninformed beeks filled out the survery? Its a self diagnosed problem reported in a survery with selected follow up due to the lack of resources. Additionally the commercial interest behind the survery has services ready to sell to solve the alleged problem. How many readers would beleive a report from a drug company who claims various maladies are a problem and should be treated with a new drug? One must look carefully at how the information is collected and how it is being used. Anyone have restless leg syndrome? We've been over and over this before. There WAS NO BEE SHORTAGE THIS SPRING! The numbers in the bee loss estimate simply never added up with the real world situation on the ground with almonds/packages and queens. I'm not the only beek that feels this way either. Peter you can beleive what ever you want to believe but I am not taking printed materials on face value. I like to test the results with real world information and in my opinion its a circus. We've had larger losses in the past and will continue to in the future. The amount of attention this loss received has made it a circus. THe real story is the unsustainable practices migratory feedlot beekeeping has sunk to and CCD is IMO a distraction from the core issues that are not being addressed. We've had virus issues relevant to varroa mites for some time and this so called "new virus" should come as no surprise. But somehow this one is supposed to be THE big deal? come on.............. If you read the mass media on this with the spooky, mysterious disappearance one can get sucked into the idea this is a major issue. When taken in the perspective its another virus brought on by suppressed immune system the perspective of the situation is much different. If the losses from CCD become a flash in the pan in the histroy of US beekeeping and do not return I rest my case. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:55:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies In-Reply-To: <002a01c7ff90$0ef3a310$6401a8c0@NOTEBOOK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Marron wrote: > Bill, did you mean bacteria? Virus perhaps? I want to research something on > this. Do you have a source? Peter cited it in his post. It is bacteria. They actually invade the egg and transfer some of their DNA to the host. As I noted, there is a lot going on with genetics and DNA. even more, scientists have found that all the DNA that seemed to be not doing anything is in fact doing something. RNA is doing even more that thought. It is as if most all the original assumptions are not quite what was thought. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:32:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD Circus In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > THe real story is the unsustainable practices migratory feedlot beekeeping has sunk to > I keep reading this mantra on the BeeL about "unsustainable practices" but migratory beekeeping has been going on for some time as has commercial agriculture. The argument is something I heard when I was in elementary school and was told that we would run out of oil, food and metals in the early 1970's and mass starvation around the would would be common by the bicentennial. The problem with all these Luddite like predictions is they rely on a static universe where all thing remain the same. That just does not happen. The only thing that remains the same are the predictions of disaster every decade.That you can take to the bank, which the predictors do, since bad news sells a lot more books than does good. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:10:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: CCD Circus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:18:18 -0400, Brian Fredericksen wrote: >Why is it that 95% of the media reports of affected beekeepers typically include information that makes it clear to an experienced beekeeper that the reported bee loss is not CCD? * I am glad you lead off with the question of the news media. I will state here and now that anyone who relies on the news media for information about their specialty is going to the wrong source. Any beekeeper that wants to stay up to date, in my humble opinion, should be here. Subscribe to the bee magazines, go to the club meetings, do a lot more listening. >THe real story is the unsustainable practices migratory feedlot beekeeping has sunk to and CCD is IMO a distraction from the core issues that are not being addressed. * OK. What proof do you have that these practices are the cause of any of these problems? Migratory beekeeping has been practiced for many decades. Bees have been shipped from South to North for generations. Again, if you actually talked to large scale beekeepers and listened to their stories, you might be a little less eager to constantly bring this whole thing back to THEM and US. If you have ideas that you want to share that you think will work, then by all means, you should share them. But if you think the answer to everybody's problems is to not have so many bees and not move them around, then you might as well just stay home and not get involved. > If you read the mass media on this ... * Yes, well, I don't. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:36:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, As we move to the time last year many hives crashed I feel I should share knowledge about virus and bees. Dr. Shiminuki (retired head of Beltsville Bee lab) gave the name "PMS" to virus issues in bees. He said if you control mites for the most part PMS is a non issue but when control drops then PMS is seen. I have personally seen thousands of frames of PMS since varroa arrived. Only in my hives in the early years except for "leave alone" survivor hives. A friend had over 4,000 PMS frames in his operation last fall. I searched the latest books to find a reference I agree with and the best was in chapter 20 on page 300 of Dr. Dewey Caron's book " Honey Bee Biology & Beekeeping". The book was published in 1999 and shows how similar "PMS" can be to CCD symptoms. quote page 300: " Colonies that are apparently healthy and productive suddenly experience a crash in ADULT population , often during the FALL , resulting in heavy loses . Dead colonies have plenty of honey stores but FEW ADULTS and a very spotty , unhealthy looking brood area. This condition has been labelled PMS" Highlights are mine. The above sounds like a description of CCD yet the above is Dr. Caron's description of PMS. Hmmm. quote: " PMS mimics other diseases , So far ,no specific pathogen has been identified , so confirmation of field symptoms with lab analysis is not yet possible" Samples sent to the U.K. for testing have always detected several virus. Never a single virus. Further quote: " If a virus is ultimately found responsible, no chemical treatment will be possible. Management techniques (such as reducing mite levels) and resistant stock will need to be developed to reduce negative effects of a VIRUS." Now if I had said the above the list might have turned on me so I found in the words of Dr. Caron what I have been trying to say since this virus issue came up. PMS was rarely seen in hives when Apistan and Checkmite were killing 98-99% of varroa in a hive. Last fall for reasons I have said before varroa control was at a level at which PMS symptoms were common. At first glance PMS is usually a "shotgun" brood pattern. The sealed brood can look similar to AFB. The larva can be yellow and mimic EFB. All the adult bees can be gone except for a queen and some young bees. With PMS prevention is best. Test before and after your chosen varroa treatment to make sure you have got a high varroa kill. The maker of Miteaway 2 recommends treating every four months when brood rearing is heavy. Apigard & api life var kill varroa slowly over a period of time so do not wait too late in season to treat. In the old days a chemical strip could drop 3000 varroa overnite. Today in our area those strips maybe will drop a couple hundred varroa. Tests ran in Georgia (Dr. Delaplane and published ABJ) with Apistan found the mite load continued to increase during the treatment period when apistan was used on hives which had fluvalinate resistant varroa. Tip: With varroa you can usually get by with only testing the strongest hive in the yard as varroa always takes out your strongest hives first. Test before treatment and after treatment! Tip: Treat early in late summer and if you find your hives still have got a high varroa load after the end of the chosen treatment period use another treatment to clear the hive of varroa. It is my opinion (and was the opinion of Dr. Shiminuki) that if you control varroa PMS will be a minor issue. Hope the above helps. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:39:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD Circus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:32:38 -0400, Bill Truesdell wrote: >I keep reading this mantra on the BeeL about "unsustainable practices" >but migratory beekeeping has been going on for some time as has >commercial agriculture. The argument is something I heard when I was in >elementary school and was told that we would run out of oil, food and >metals in the early 1970's and mass starvation around the would would be >common by the bicentennial. sure, great look around Bill what portion of the population is either overweight or diabetic? corn syrup rules. yep thats progress in agriculture and feeding America. geez its a disgrace.... likewise on the bee front 1/2 the colonies we had in the US in the 1960's, every other year another bee crash/crisis. looks good eh? sustainable yes sir. here's a definition for you, perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept. "Sustainable development is defined as balancing the fulfillment of human needs with the protection of the natural environment so that these needs can be met not only in the present, but in the indefinite future" what so Luddite about that? where is the glory in commercial beekeeping or conventional agriculture you are so fond of Bill? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:32:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: An open letter regarding Colony Collapse Disorder and science Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison >We still have not figured a way to replace the lost feral colonies. Hello Bob, I once had a fear that ferals would have trouble recovering,,, But from what I am seeing, I don’t think we need to worry about that one bit, it appears they will recover on their own, and with great force. I am happy to report that ferals seem plentiful in my area the last few seasons. I am now accepting only FBC’s (fun bee calls) OR HRC‘s (high reward call$). I have resurrected from cold storage my standard answer to the cheepo’s, that I buried away after the varroa crashes of 95-96,,, “I don’t need the bees”. I’m going this weekend on a FBC to a turkey farm to investigate what I thought a humorous complaint that there are ‘too many feral colonies on her property‘, she’s claiming 3 bee trees, one in a large Locust tree in the immediate vicinity. Last week, answered a HRC to remove 2 mature colonies from the south side of an old farm house, and the past few years calls for bee removals are rapidly increasing (turning down many more than I'm taking). I’m rechecking bee trees in in the sounding woodlands and finding a few being habited with bees again. I'm seeing scouts testing and robbing, beelining back to the woodlands,,, Seems, the good old days are coming back! Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles FeralBeeProject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:55:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: An open letter regarding Colony Collapse Disorder and science MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Seems, the good old days are coming back! Glad they are in your area but I get many calls from people which never see a bee (when they used to be plentiful). I had two calls from gardeners which said they had to pollinate their mellons this year by hand to get mellons. I think for the most part we are a long way from the feral population in the U.S. we had before mites. In the south it seems AHB is filling the feral spots of EHB. I did not get one swarm call this year in my area but with my beekeeping methods swarms from my bees are rare. Last year I think I had three. One was kind of funny. The swarm was in a pine tree about a mile from my house. The farmer drove his tractor under the tree and hit the swarm in his face. The bees had made comb so he got stung a couple times . He was upset (and swollen) and said the swarm must have been from my hives. I said no way of knowing and he calmed down. I later checked and the queen was one of my special marked queens. Guess he was right! Another strange swarm happened years ago. I had a bee yard up on a hill in some black Locust trees. I had to drive through some high sumac bushes climbing the hill to the yard. The bushes were shaking as I drove up the hill and a swarm on a high bush was dislodged and fell right in the open window into the front seat with me. Bees all over me and the inside of the truck but did not get stung but took awhile to get all the bees in the swarm box. Years ago I used to deal in antiques and had been at a sale in North Missouri. I stopped on the way back at a place called Jamesport. I was sitting in the truck when I got a knock on the window. Seems there was a swarm in a low bush in front of a store and was not a beekeeper in the town. They saw the bee business name on the truck and wondered if I would help. The swarm was only about three feet off the ground in a Lilac bush. I didn't have any beekeeping equipment or smoker with me. A crowd gathered when I said I would help.I walked over to the swarm (which had built a small comb) and shook the swarm into a drawer of an antique chest of drawers I had on the truck and then slide the drawer in the chest of drawers and left. Took only a couple minutes. jaws dropped watching. especially when they saw I was stung 5 or 6 times. As I waved to the crowd one bee was injecting her stinger in my forehead. part of the crowd was saying I was crazy and the other brave. I had a good laugh as I drove off. I drove the 100 miles home with the swarm in the drawer and put in a hive and they made honey the first year. I wrote about the swarm on BEE-L when happened years ago. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 01:07:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: CCD Circus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Frederickson writes: “likewise on the bee front 1/2 the colonies we had in the US in the 1960's, every other year another bee crash/crisis.” Like I said before Brian, the pendulum has been swinging in the other direction for a while now, and an adjustment continues to be taking place as we speak. Things may have gone passed a limit in the time when there were more bees in North America than there are now, and if so, that might in large part explain why we are seeing the difficulties that we clearly are seeing. It is hard to make a living at beekeeping now, especially if your practices are bucking nature too much. To some degree we all have to deal with the problems that bucking nature too much has brought upon the world, but when it comes to beekeeping at least, it is those who continue to try to fit a square peg into a round hole that are most at risk and often have the most to lose. You seem to have a strong belief that the practices you use are sound and sustainable, not only in terms of being able to keep some bees around, but to make a living at it. If so, you needn’t get in too much of a lather about others who haven’t figured out what you have because your practices will be among the ones that survive. I am convinced that there are kinds of beekeeping operations out there that are capable of surviving anything that has been visited upon us so far. These will be the future of beekeeping. I understand that your frustration with the state of modern beekeeping extends to much more than that. It goes to the way humans have been relating to nature in general for a long time. But if you get in too much of a fret about it, you risk losing that vital degree of objectivity required to judge the big picture in terms of the facts on the ground, and with that goes your ability to convince the skeptics. Some of what you say may be true, but a lot of it seems pretty hypothetical at this point. Like the idea that commercial migratory beekeeping is causing all the big problems in beekeeping today. I would like to see more facts and rational argumentation to support this supposition. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 06:30:35 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob quoted Dewey Caron's excellent textbook in his posting: > quote page 300: > " Colonies that are apparently healthy and productive suddenly > experience a crash in ADULT population , often during the FALL, > resulting in heavy loses. Dead colonies have plenty of honey > stores but FEW ADULTS and a very spotty unhealthy looking brood > area. This condition has been labeled PMS" > The above sounds like a description of CCD yet the above is > Dr. Caron's description of PMS. Hmmm. No, that does not sound like CCD at all. Cases of CCD have a high occurrence of large and healthy brood areas. The largish brood area is one of the indicators that the departure of the adults was sudden and recent. There aren't even enough adults to have tended the brood area, let alone have capped it all. > ...if you control varroa... Yeah, we get it. Varroa is a serious issue. We all "got it" a long time ago. Those who didn't aren't beekeepers any more. Everyone tries their best to control varroa, so what more can we do? > I feel I should share knowledge about virus and bees. I think that this is "jumping the gun", as I don't see any reason to conclude at this point that any virus is the primary causative agent of CCD. Even if one accepts the major points of the paper in "Science" as gospel: a) the very shaky claim that a specific virus correlates to CCD ("shaky", due to results based upon samples highly likely to have been misclassified as "CCD" or "Healthy") b) the identification of the virus named. (Just as "Stripes Do Not A Tiger Make", an ID based upon mere fragments of RNA or DNA do not provide a firm ID, nor do they even prove that any actual virus was found.) c) the leap of faith required to position mere correlation with care, making it shine like causation in the sun, or at least blind the viewer with glare to cover all the hand-waving required to imply causation. It is just as likely that this virus is nothing but an opportunistic infection that gets out of hand after to the actual root cause(s) of CCD do their damage. If CCD is a "dead body", the virus(es) could be nothing more than a new form of invasive, exotic "maggots", a very tiny version of Wax Moths. Further, the authors of the paper engaged in reasoning that was inherently self-contradictory. The virus at issue here is said to be: 1) Connected to CCD 2) Found in "CCD Colonies" often enough to be a "marker" 3) Not found in healthy colonies 4) Found in packages from Australia 5) Therefore, introduced into the US from Australia Yet the up-front assumption of the paper, that irradiation of comb killed a pathogen of some sort, and thereby proved that the root cause was a pathogen was based upon: 1) Taking CCD dead-outs 2) Irradiating them with gamma radiation 3) Installing packages >>>FROM AUSTRALIA<<< 4) Claiming that these colonies were more robust than packages (also >>>FROM AUSTRALIA<<<) installed in non-irradiated woodenware/comb. Hint: How many bees are from Australia? Which ones? Which ones have a nasty virus? If any of us engaged in this sort of "reasoning" here on Bee-L, the hoots of derision would be loud, many, and well-deserved. Now, I'm not saying that a hitherto undetected virus is not at all interesting, I'm just pointing out that the paper in "Science" was a very sloppy piece of work, and did not provide data to back up the claims presented as "conclusions". Now, there have been murmurs about additional data that better supports the claims made. If this is the case, all I can ask is "Why wasn't this data in the paper?", and wait for someone to bring this rumored data to the table. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 06:58:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: >Tip: >With varroa you can usually get by with only testing the strongest hive in >the yard as varroa always takes out your strongest hives first. On the face of it, this seems to not make sense -- but this is what I do. He's right Pete ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:55:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) In-Reply-To: <000501c8009e$75bb48a0$18bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > quote: > " PMS mimics other diseases , So far ,no specific pathogen has been > identified , so confirmation of field symptoms with lab analysis is not yet > possible" Bob's quote of Dewey Caron and Jim's response are instructive. One of the major problems with CCD identification is that PMS comes very close to the same symptoms, so much so that many, if not most, beekeepers would have no trouble in thinking they have CCD when it is PMS. The initial samples of KBV and what became PMS came from Maine and the reported symptoms were identical to CCD. It is interesting that the symptoms found by those in Maryland differed only in degree from those found initially in Maine. Which gets me back to my postulate that "All beekeeping is local". PMS is not a discrete set of symptoms that are apparent in every colony at any time there is an infection. We all know that PMS symptoms can appear without colony collapse or can occur and never be seen until after the collapse. It is a continuum. The close it gets to its extreme, the close it gets to CCD in its symptoms. If you have a mild winter and fall like Maryland compared to Maine, you may be closer to CCD symptoms in the more extreme climate since conditions would favor a more rapid collapse of the colony. The key to fall and winter mite kill is the closeness of the bees in the hive. The close they are the quicker disease spreads. Northern falls and winters have a much quicker onset of cold which would tend to cause a quicker onset of symptoms and collapse. So Northern reported CCD may be mostly mite and virus related. Jim's reply is correct, in my opinion, since I agree that CCD, as reported by Jerry, is not mite related but is exactly what has been identified in the literature well before mites ever visited our shores. It may still be viral related, but that is questionable. The issue of discrete CCD symptoms also rules out insecticides, since they also are a continuum of symptoms. You will not find an abrupt collapse but will have colonies in different states as well as bees with different degrees of symptoms, as was seen in France with gaucho. It was fairly easy to see the symptoms in various stages compare to CCD which is quick and lethal. All that said, the incidence of CCD is probably very small, especially compared to mite related problems. Maybe the work done by the Penn group will be beneficial, but only if they work the mite part of the problem. Otherwise they will be like a group of scientists looking at the impact debris from a meteor strike and assume it to be the cause while ignoring the large smoldering rock in the center. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 08:35:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Correct Subject Headings In-Reply-To: <46FAA9B2.3050805@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit After reading many posts which reply to previously posted subjects, I'm going to push a request to those making such responses. Sometimes the replies to previous posts do not pertain the the subject listed in the previous post. Instead the reply pertains to subject matter which is not referred to in the "Subject:" heading at all. All posts are saved at BEE-L and can be searched for in the archives. However, if the subject heading is not changed when reposting, then it is very difficult to retrieve the message through a search of "The subject is or contains:" headings. Please, when you change the subject being discussed in the body of your submission, change the subject heading title as well to reflect the new topic of discussion. Makes searching the archives for submissions on a certain topic a lot easier and a lot more inclusive. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:11:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: CCD Circus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > "Sustainable development is defined as balancing the > fulfillment of human needs with the protection of the > natural environment so that these needs can be met > not only in the present, but in the indefinite future" > where is the glory in commercial beekeeping or conventional > agriculture you are so fond of Bill? I don't understand what's "unsustainable" about conventional agricultural practices. Example: along the margins of the GMO corn and soybean monocultures in the upper Midwest USA I find native bee and butterfly pollinators are still abundant: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/pods.jpg http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/trumi.jpg http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/trumh.jpg http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/trumf.jpg http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/trume.jpg http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/trumk.jpg http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/trumc.jpg http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/trumd.jpg Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:18:27 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: CCD Circus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I don't understand what's "unsustainable" about conventional agricultural practices. Ask farmers to drink water from the wells on their farms and try to conceive babies. The ground water has been poluted and that's 'unsustainable.' Women who want to have babies have to drink filtered water or buy clean water. Who is going to clean up the aquafiers and ground water? Does anyone care what kind of environment our kids and grandkids will inherit from the 'baby boomers from hell.'? The honest truth is the same baby boomers can start setting things right. Oversized animal stock feedlock have polluted ground water and rivers. Never mind the stench from hog farms. The way we raise & process food is unhealthy to the land and ourselves. But we stick our heads in the sand and blame the 'genetics.' I don't buy the theory that viruses are the root cause of CCD. They may be one of the nails in the coffin but not the root cause. Viruses have been around for a long time and are not going anywhere. Bees have developed immune systems to deal with them. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:48:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ted_Hancock?= Subject: Re: CCD Circus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 01:07:35 -0400, Steve Noble wrote: I am convinced that there are kinds >of beekeeping operations out there that are capable of surviving anything >that has been visited upon us so far. These will be the future of >beekeeping. Steve seems to be suggesting (forgive me if I'm wrong Steve) that commercial beekeeping does not need any rules or regulations, that it is best to let market forces determine which beekeepers will live and die. I think this is analogous to a beeyard that has descended into robbing fever, where all the bees fight to the death and all the honey is lost. We need some rules and regulations to maintain a civilized society. The trick, as I see it, is to decide what regulations are needed to guarantee a sustainable future for beekeeping, without unduly cramping the entrepreneural spirit. If we follow the mantra that there should be no rules of behaviour/hive management practices, I think our industry will end up looking like the robbed out beeyard. I guess it won't be a total loss. We'll probably still have a couple of drones crawling around in the grass saying, " It was the only way, at least we can say we're not liberals". Some of what you say >may be true, but a lot of it seems pretty hypothetical at this point. Like >the idea that commercial migratory beekeeping is causing all the big >problems in beekeeping today. I would like to see more facts and rational >argumentation to support this supposition. My beef with large migratory beekeeping is that their operating practices have a negative impact on beekeepers that don't move their hives. I think these impacts are self evident so won't list them here. Fact is that if we allow someone from Mexico to set 4000 stressed, diseased hives down beside my 300 during the honey flow then I'm not going to get much of a honey crop. So to survive I'll have to run 4000 hives and start chasing pollination contracts all over the continent like the guy from Mexico. I don't think this method of beekeeping is a sustainable or desirable way to make a living. And I don't see the sense in letting market forces figure this out the hard way when we can already see it. Ted ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:04:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD Circus In-Reply-To: <20070927.101827.12635.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Ask farmers to drink water from the wells on their farms and try to conceive babies. I am on a farm with well water and admit I find it difficult to conceive babies. But it ain't the water. Mostly gender. But this actually has to do with the subject line. We now live in a world dominated by "news singularities". One person who has a problem is put in front of a camera and the singularity is elevated to the entire population. CCD is classic. A small, in relative terms (it is never small when it happens to you), bee die-off was elevated to 80% kill-off on the east coast of the US, and bees disappearing nationwide, when none of this was true. Well water is contaminated in some places and is not in others and not because of pesticides. But all you need do is put a person in front of a camera and it becomes gospel. The environmental/organic/holistic/natural/sustainable/you-get-the-drift groups know this and perpetuate myths on the public to foster their agendas. All you need is one victim, real or not. All they need is to be fed the buzz words. Just look at the word "Commercial" or "Big" and all they do is add whatever they want after it to taint them. Big Agriculture, Commercial Beekeeping- easy isn't it. I have many commercial and organic farmer friends. I have helped them by working for them for free.The sane one have to make a living from what they do. The crazies are the hobbyists who work at jobs outside of the farm, since they cannot make a living from their practices.They are also the ones who rail the most. Real farmers, organic or otherwise, know how hard it is to make a living. I practice organic beekeeping and farming, but I could never make a living from either, unless I could sell my hand-picked Tomato Horn Worms and Japanese Beetles. I have loads of them. All my apples are cosmetically marred, because I do not spray. Same goes fro Beekeeping. Like Dee, fortunately my money comes from elsewhere. There is a truism- the further you go from the farm the more fervent you are for "animal rights". You could paraphrase that with- the further you are from making a living from farming or beekeeping, the more fervent environmental/organic/holistic/natural/sustainable you are. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:23:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: sustainability; from CCD circus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Paul Cherubini writes: “I don't understand what's "unsustainable" about conventional agricultural practices.” Well, Paul, why don’t you ask some of those beekeepers who have gone out of business recently because they kept loosing too many of their hives to unexplained causes what is unsustainable about “conventional” agricultural practices?” To have a chance of seeing what might be problematic about some of these modern practices you have to let go of wanting it to not be true, and then look at the larger picture in a time frame that goes further out than a sunny day on the side of the road. You have to be able to accept that a snap shot of some butterflies on a given day may not be enough to show you what is really going on over the long term. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:16:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD Circus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:11:29 -0700, Paul Cherubini wrote: >I don't understand what's "unsustainable" about conventional >agricultural practices. Example: along the margins of the >GMO corn and soybean monocultures in the upper Midwest >USA I find native bee and butterfly pollinators are still abundant: it takes more then bees and butterflies in the fencerows to make farming sustainable. most of the landscape here is *owned* by monsantao, cargill, ADM and their like. through a monopoly on seeds, seed/chem systems, distribution and pricing a farmer almost has to resort to the latest chemical or GMO crop to make a go of it. many local rural communities have seen a massive loss of population as big ag takes over the landscape. the profits are pushed upstream to the processors while the producers get the scraps. IMO the feedlot operators are also mere tools of the system, they are told what to feed, what to inject and how much they will get per hundred weight. conventional farming has been reduced to a mindless robot like exsitance for many who also have huge payments to keep up with the big equipment, feedlot buildings etc that are required. the big joke is the Feds subsidize these operations. much of the ouput from this kind of agriculture is slowly killing many people via obesity and diabetes. the heavy use of antibiotics and hormones is an unknown but possible growing risk also. many farmers have been turned into tools of the system. they have little choice of how to play the game and make a living. likewise in the large migratorry operations get squat for their honey, while the packers move in foriegn honey into the country. the lifeline many are clinging to with their over medicated bees on contaminated comb is polllination. SEVERAL leading bee researchers have been quoted in the last 9 months as saying these migratory bees are stressed from the frequent movements and poor nutrition. how much more can we push this overall system? who can make a claim that American beekeeping IS sustainable? we have far less bees then are needed, there are constant hive crashes and crisis. the price of honey no matter what always seems to be in the barely do-able range. Is there some one on the list that thinks CCD would even be in our vocabulary if 95% of all US colonies were never moved and never had any regular or overdoses of TM, Checkmite, Apistan or jacked up blue shop rag treatments? a big part of the problem is Americans notion that food should be cheap. it is cheap nowadays because of the heavy use of corn syrup, corn & soybean by product fillers and other imported fillers from China. as aulluded to earlier the water quality in farm country is horrible, many streams and rivers here are undrinkable and do not sustain aqautic life. sure life goes on but at what cost? who owns the water, sky and quality of overall life? i'm just saying that we have the knowledge and capacity to have a more earth and people freindly system of producing food. it has to start with the consumer who rejects the junk that sits in the grocery stores or rejects some of the producer practices. the beggining of that trend is already happening, some are on the wagon, some are posers, some are left on the side line clueless. i don't think for a new york minute that big ag farmers or migratory beeks are "bad people" they are ordinary people that are trying to make a living. we all have to decide how we feel comfortable making a living and the ethics and so on that goes with that choice. if someone feels good about stesssing their bees, using harsh chem treatments or dumping atrazine on their land to make a living they have to live with that each night when they turn the lights off. IMO its the legacy we will leave for the next generation thats important not the money that was made now at any cost. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:49:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: CCD Circus Comments: To: Waldemar Galka Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Said water pollution has been well documented even as early as in the 1960’s, but where is this ground water, a chemcial time-bomb sitting in the aquafer, such as Waldemar describes, gonna go? “Although the sudden death of thousands of fish or crustaceans in some stream or pond as the direct and visible effect of insect control is dramatic and alarming, these unseen and as yet largely unknown and unmeasureable effects of pesticides reaching estuaries indrectly in streams and rivers may in the end be more disastrous. . . . We know that pesticies contained in runoff from farms and forests are now being carried to the sea in the waters of many and perhaps all of the major rivers. But we do not know the identity of all the chemicals or their total quantity, and we do not presently have any dependable tests for identifying them in highly diluted state once they have reached the sea. Although we know that the chemicals have almost certanly undergone change during the long period of transit, we do not know whether the altered chemical is more toxic than the original or less” (Silent Spring;151-2). “The whole process of sprayinhg seems caught up in an endless spiral. Since DDT [We have sprayed stuff far far far worse than DDT now] was released for civilian use, a process of escalation has been going on in which ever more toxic materials must be found. This has happened because insects, in a triumphant vindication of Darwin’s principle of the survivial of the fisttest, have evloved super races imune to the particular insecticide used, hence, a deadlier one has always to be developed—and then a deadlier one tha that . . . because destructive insects often under go a ‘flareback,’ or resurgence, after spraying, in numbers greater than before. Thus chemcial war is never won, and all life is caught in its violent crossfire.” (Silent Spring; 8) “Violent Crossfire,” such as being unable to concevie a young; although our intended target was a “bug,” the intricate web of life must also deal with the consequences of a few industrial farmers who too must bring bread to the table no matter what. The bullet, alas, boomeranged and backfired at us, the humans, the control freak. Let's not talk about the incrased risks of cancer here. The Dutch Elm disease was the direct result of planting one species (monocrop) all over the US, on the streets, on the campuses, and in the backyard, offering an endless buffet for the fungus to explode, riding on the back of elm bark beetles—all, thanks to us. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:21:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tceisele@MTU.EDU Subject: Re: Edible insects on the farm In-Reply-To: <46FBFEC1.1020003@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > I practice organic beekeeping and farming, but I could never make a > living from either, unless I could sell my hand-picked Tomato Horn Worms > and Japanese Beetles. I have loads of them. Well, hey, maybe that's a thought. How do Japanese beetle grubs and tomato hornworms taste when, say, sauted in garlic butter? Is there an untapped market here? It might be easier to produce hornworms in quantity than tomatos. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:58:33 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Fw: Re: [BEE-L] CCD Circus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I am on a farm with well water and admit I find it difficult to conceive babies. But it ain't the water. Mostly gender. I should realize by now you are a subborn nay-sayer or you have not heard of the quite common farm well contamination. Google for yourself. http://ipcm.wisc.edu/Portals/0/Blog/Files/30/363/wn-Free%20well%20water%20testing%20and%20water%20information.pdf Not only do we have allegedly unexplainable bee collapse situations, we have humans plagued by cancer, allergies, obesity, or autism. Put healthy wild animals in a polluted environment and feed them garbage and see if you won't start seeing ailments common in humans. Honey bees are just one species but the same factors affect other species as well. >>Well water is contaminated in some places and is not in others... Clearly the once wholesome quality of American water has not been sustained. >>I practice organic beekeeping and farming... I am frankly very surprised. Why are you organic? You say there is no problem with contamination and yet employ sustainable practices. I hope you are not joking. >>the further you are from making a living from farming or beekeeping, the more fervent environmental/organic/holistic/natural/sustainable you are. I disagree. The small farmer in the US and Europe who has been making a living from farming for generations cares a lot about the environment. The big agri business' first priority is profit. If farmland will be utilized to grow crops for biofuel, the land and water will get polluted even more. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:58:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > The above sounds like a description of CCD yet the above is > Dr. Caron's description of PMS. Hmmm. Jim said: No, that does not sound like CCD at all. not at all? I think the description fits except for the brood problems. The spotty brood etc. only are seen in the late stage of virus issues(Dr. Shiminuki). I killed a hive today and brought in for examination tomorrow. The bees had CBPV. None of the bees could fly. The hive was a top hive nine days ago. 40,000 plus bees. Once the brood boxes were removed the floor of the hive was filled with dying bees. Unable to fly. Looked like worms in a ball. I placed a huge number of dying bees in a screened box on the truck as I went on too other yards. All were dead by the end of the day. Hopefully this was an isolated case. Tomorrow I will remove each pupa and check for varroa to try and see if the varroa treatment (already completed) had somehow failed. When virus is associated with varroa the name PMS fits.Once done I plan to burn the frames and sterilize the woodenware. If I had hundreds of these frames I would sterilize but only 18 I will toss in burn barrel. Also the virus "Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus" although unknown to me uses the wording "acute paralysis" so I can only assume the description fits the several other* named* paralysis virus. If so then the bees are unable to fly and if were a possible cause of CCD then the bees would be found in the hive or in front of the hive. Bailey, Shiminuki and others ALL agree that bees with acute paralysis virus in the stage symptoms are observed CAN NOT FLY! So please tell me how they could disappear? >Cases of CCD have a high occurrence of large and healthy brood areas. Many which claimed their loss from CCD did not report large areas of brood left but rather missing bees with small areas of brood.(personal conversation.) As I said before I have seen hundreds of hives ( I started beekeeping in the fifties )which fit the *EXACT* ccd description in which the adult bees flew out to forage and were killed by pesticides. Two types of pesticide kill: 1. bees fly out and die and only brood remains.(common with this type of kill) 2. bees return to die or die from the contaminated pollen and are tossed out the entrance by the bees.( this description is the type I see the most.) >We all "got it" a long time ago. Those who didn't aren't beekeepers any more. Many of the beekeepers reporting CCD did have varroa issues.(personal conversation with the two of largest beekeepers reporting) last year was the first use for many of thymol or formic acid. Both are a big step down from chemical strips. To put it bluntly. Thymol needs three correctly timed treatments ( my research) and one size does not always work with formic acid. My long time association with Mitegone and Bill R. has shown that the amount of formic needed to control varroa needs tested on a few hives and then the amount ( on pads) decided on to treat the yard. Bill R. found when he advised beekeepers in different countries on formic acid different amounts of formic were needed and one amount on a pad did not always provide control although both formic and thymol will drop mites (as will citrus leaves and tobacco when smoked in the entrance however not at a level to give proper varroa control)). Of course my experiments with formic acid have been in the interest of learning about the product. I would never endorse an illegal method on a bee list. You will get a kill with Api Life var, apiguard and miteaway 2 but many factors can make you get a kill far below advertised kill rates. Which makes many beekeepers simply think if you buy the product you will always get the top kill rate advertised. NOT SO! However I think its safe to say Apistan and Checkmite when first used would clear a hive of varroa fast with a 98% plus kill rate. It is my opinion that when varroa control drops below 90% virus issues happen. >Everyone tries their best to control varroa, so what more can we do? I read your article in this months Bee Culture (twice in fact). Well done! I agree with most you said. I think *you* have got a clear picture of the problems we face but not sure about the industry as a whole. I especially liked the tough warning to beekeepers in the last part. I would of liked to see the first rough draft as the article seemed to lack the fire you use on BEE-L and the "other" list! Maybe because of Kim's influence? Both bee magazines are now running articles which tell it like it is for which I applaud both editors. When I first started writing quite a bit was edited out of my articles and deemed as too controversial. You stepped on a few toes Jim but I think those toes needed a gentle step to let those people know we are keeping tabs on what is being said and will object when needed. I was also impressed with Randy Olivers article in ABJ. Many going to the almonds are armed with the articles about almond pollination in bee magazines as their only source of information. I might clarify the part I told Randy about singles. Hives in two deeps are reduced into singles in South Georgia. Extra sealed honey is removed ( can amount to 60-80 lbs. of weight) and the only honey sent is the ovals around the sealed brood and one frame of sealed honey. The purpose is to be able to send 700 hives on a semi instead of 450 doubles. The income from the extra 250 will cover trucking. We had one load of 480 doubles once from Missouri but most over wintered hives in doubles are heavy so even if there is room the load is over gross. The shipping cost is less per hive with 700 singles. Second the hives are easy too grade in California as 8 frames of bees.(simply lift the lid). Also with mainly emerging brood when set in almonds (directly off the semi and almonds in bloom) the frames of sealed brood become places for the queen too lay as they emerge and most of the bees become foragers right away. Our experience with Australian package bees has shown us a deep will contain the pollen and nectar from the almond flow. We have had some swarming issues on return from almonds but not a big deal in March if those hives bring top dollar as our main honey flow does not start until June 1st. to 15th. I have counted as many as 18 swarms hanging in trees in the holding yard after the return from almonds but all were caught and dropped in equipment. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:42:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Pollen Nation - pollination documentary, migratory beekeeping Comments: To: sherrie.wright@mso.umt.edu Comments: cc: troyfore@abfnet.org, kim@beeculture.com, dbeeweaver@gmail.com, jsa.cmhf@juno.com, ecmussen@ucdavis.edu, randyoliver@infs.net, james.fischer@gmail.com, robert.seccomb@umontana.edu, vicki.watson@umontana.edu, colin.henderson@mso.umt.edu, steven.rice@mso.umt.edu, dcummings@cvinc.ws, christih@cox.net, mrwick@montana.com, beeresearch@hotmail.com, David.Firth@business.umt.edu, HnyBnyMT@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Singeli & Josh" To: info@beealert.blackfoot.net Subject: Pollen Nation screening in Missoula Dear Friends, We wanted to let you know that our short film Pollen Nation will begin screening at the Montana CINE festival in Missoula next week. We hope you can make one of the events or spread the word about the film. Please feel free to pass this message on to other people you think may be interested. For those of you who haven't heard us talk about the film, Pollen Nation follows one migratory beekeeper and a semi-load full of honeybees from Minnesota to California. It's a science documentary disguised as an American road movie, and also the first film to take a look at the phenomenon of industrialized pollination, and the way it is beginning to unravel with dire consequences for all of us. Check out the website for more: _www.pollennationthemovie.com_ (http://www.pollennationthemovie.com/) _Montana CINE Film Festival_ (http://www.wildlifefilms.org/festivals/mtcine/index.html) Wednesday, October 3, 7:00 pm at the Blackfoot Theater in Missoula Sunday, October 7, 7:00 pm at the Blackfoot Theater in Missoula Pollen Nation was given an honorable mention by the festival for "Promotion of a Critical Issue." The film will precede a film called Chimpanzees: An Unnatural History Our Best, Singeli & Josh ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:43:19 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: CCD Circus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Nobel said: > It is hard to make a living at beekeeping now, especially > if your practices are bucking nature too much. The claim that anyone is "bucking nature" is a very weak accusation when the root cause of the bulk of our problems has been the moving-target nature of nature itself. Nature just ain't natural no more, and the future's not what it used to be. All these invasive exotic diseases, pests and pathogens have traveled from far, far away to get here. Without their unwelcome addition to "nature", everyone would be bothered by nothing more than what our fathers and grandfathers were - foulbrood. So, given that "nature" is now so "unnatural", why is there such a wide-eyed group of true believers who think that they can "keep bees in tune with nature", or some such other nonsensical phrase? Everyone keeps bees in boxes, and smokes their bees when they open the hives, and these two universal activities are massively "unnatural". I (gasp!) harvest honey from my hives, yet another very unnatural activity. Worst of all, even the colonies kept in bee gums and tended by nudist beekeepers who refuse to use smokers will go out every day and gather nectar and pollen from plants that are themselves invasive exotic species. Look at Purple Loostrife. A great honey plant, but one that is the target of multiple expensive eradication efforts. The promise of "natural beekeeping" lures many wannabe beekeepers down a path that seems attractive, but ends up one of two ways. In rare cases, isolation alone protects the colonies, and they appear to survive and thrive, or the colonies are not isolated enough, and the beekeeper soon disappears off the radar. The choice of (a lack of a) treatment program does not bother me as much as the willful and deliberate lack of any monitoring/testing effort. At some point, this will become understood to be "cruelty to bees", just as not taking your pet to the vet for a checkup would be "cruelty to animals". Online discussion groups prove this point clearly. After some period of strident advocacy and parroting of dogma, the "all-natural" beekeeper actually gets a hive or two, and goes into a period of crowing about how his or her hives have survived for a whole 6 months without any "treatments". Of course, there's no monitoring or testing going on either. Why should they bother to run any tests on their bees? They just know that they are doing the right thing. Then, suddenly, the beekeeper is no longer heard from. We've lost another beekeeper. The hives all died, and the person gave up in frustration or embarrassment. There have been a few who have been brave and honest enough to report on the inevitable failure of neither monitoring, treating, or even feeding their hives in times of drought. They were been quickly jumped upon by the other true believers, the ones who have not yet lost their hives to the first problem to wander down the road and into their back yard. So, the combination of a mind so "open" that the first damn-fool idea to wander in can take over, and hives so unmanaged that the first pest or disease to wander in can take over and kill the hives is a bad one. There are some who want to blame migratory operations for providing free transport for pests and diseases, and their criticism is valid. It is true that the migratory operations internalize their profits while externalizing their costs on beekeepers unlucky enough to be in their path, and even beekeepers who happen to merely be near their path. But the migratory guys would not have all those "costs" that they choose to externalize on the surrounding countryside if not for much larger enterprises that brought the pests here to North America in the first place, and externalized their costs on everyone else (while, of course, internalizing the profits). You can shrug and say to yourself that there is nothing we can do about all this, or you can realize that I presented this exact same reasoning back in 2002, and warned that a lack of inspections and sampling of imported bees would introduce "the next varroa" (at that time, my favorite poster pest was Tropilaelaps clareae). Sadly, I was generally ignored at the time. And here it is only a few years later, and we have 23 researchers standing up and pointing an accusing finger at Australia as the "source" of a new pathogen that they claim is connected to CCD. Regardless of what you think about CCD or the claims currently being made, the Australians have admitted to several incursions of Apis cerana into Australian ports since 2002, and this is just the bees that they FOUND. It is simply impossible to inspect 100% of cargo containers entering any port, so it there is not just a chance, but a statistical certainty that Apis cerana will get into Australia, and bring Tropilaelaps clareae along for the ride. That's a shame, but that's no reason for a sense of hopeless despair here. We can inspect and test imports. Do the Australian's inspect for Tropilaelaps clareae, or even know what it looks like? Dunno, as they continue to stand on ceremony and make the flat statement that they are "free of this pest". Just like they stood on ceremony and declared that they were "free of Small Hive Beetle". Until of course, it got into Australia, and spread to aperies all over. Whoops. If they can't see SHB, they certainly won't see the tiny Tropilaelaps clareae mite, now will they? The price of honey remains unchanged from 2002. The price of honey is (still) eternal vigilance. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:51:55 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> The above sounds like a description of CCD yet the above is >>> Dr. Caron's description of PMS. Hmmm. > Jim said: > >> No, that does not sound like CCD at all. > not at all? > I think the description fits except for the brood problems. That's like saying that a paper cut is just like a shotgun wound, except for the inconveniently large gaping wound in the chest of the shotgun victim. After, all both bleed, don't they? The stark LACK of brood problems has been the unusual thing that makes "CCD" unique from anything else we've ever seen. If you ignore this evidence, then, yes, it could look similar to all sorts of things. But there lies nonsense. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:34:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: CCD Circus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ted Hancock , Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:48:42 -0400 writes: “Steve seems to be suggesting (forgive me if I'm wrong Steve) that commercial beekeeping does not need any rules or regulations, that it is best to let market forces determine which beekeepers will live and die.” You are wrong, Ted, and I forgive you. It’s not that I am against regulation per se. I just don’t see it coming to our rescue any time soon. No one seems to be able to agree on what the problem is, and there are conflicting interests in the beekeeping industry that make settling on what to do about anything pretty difficult. Also, even though I have my doubts about the wisdom of large scale migratory beekeeping and modern monoculture agriculture in general, I don’t think the case has been made yet that doing away with migratory beekeeping, or banning imports from Australia will make life a lot easier for the rest of us, your particular case being the obvious exception. That leaves the market and its effect on good and bad beekeeping practices. I am saying that those effects will be shown to be pretty direct when it comes to beekeeping. Not perfectly direct, but more direct maybe than we have yet realized. At a certain point, a point that may already have been reached, the cost of making some of these more bizarre practices work will be too high. Emotional tirades, therefore, may prove to be as unnecessary as they are ineffective at getting people to see the light. I hope that clarifies my view of the situation a little. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:02:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: CCD Circus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Fischer writes: “The claim that anyone is "bucking nature" is a very weak accusation when the root cause of the bulk of our problems has been the moving-target nature of nature itself” There is a point beyond which what we demand from nature is more than it is able to give. If we are always viewing nature as the problem, and we think of a problem as something that must be eliminated, we will never consciously find that point of optimal balance between what we need from nature and what is practical or even possible to get from it over the long haul. That point will be found for us though, and we will have to live with it. If you want to highlight the ridiculous extremes, go right ahead, but I don’t see how that gets us anywhere. Let’s just take a simple example. If stress is a significant factor in making those things in nature that are moving targets cause beekeeping catastrophes, then maybe we will have to take a second look at how much stress we can get away with subjecting them to. You don’t have to go back to the primal state for that. But that in its self could result in a big change in the way the beekeeping industry looks. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 19:49:06 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: CCD Circus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is a point beyond which what we demand from nature > is more than it is able to give. Huh? Is it too much to ask that our "nature" not be polluted with invasive, exotic pests, diseases, and pathogens from other ecosystems on the other side of the planet? > If we are always viewing nature as the problem, No one said this, no one even implied this. A bit of a strawman there. > and we think of a problem as something that must be > eliminated, No one said or implied this, either. Well past strawmen, and into the "hay barn" range, now. > we will never consciously find that point of optimal balance > between what we need from nature and what is practical or > even possible to get from it over the long haul. But using the conscious mind might be your whole problem here. You really can't ever find any sort of "balance" via conscious effort, you have to "let go" and allow your unconscious mind and your crown chakra to guide... No, I just can't sling new-age jargon around as if it had any meaning. I have no idea what you are talking about, so you'll just have to try again if you have a point about beekeeping buried somewhere in all those generalities. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:30:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If you ignore this evidence, then, yes, it could look similar to all sorts of things. I have always found it interesting the pictures at the web site with a huge number of frames of brood and no bees. Does not fit for the time of year in the north. Because both Lance Sundberg and David Hackenberg (the two beekeepers which spoke directly to the media) sought out my opinion at the ABF meeting in Austin I have got first hand knowledge of their loss. Missing bees and strong hives two weeks before was the way both described their loss. Lance had moved his bees from Montana at a time most bees are broodless so I have a hard time thinking 7-8 frames of bees were left in his hives. Hives strong and then dead was the main issue presented at the ABF meeting. I am not sure about Pennsylvania in October. However we have all seen the report from the state bee inspector of Pennsylvania posted on the net saying David Hackenberg had varroa issues in July. Lance really had not checked his hives close after pulling supers but had treated his hives with a essential oil for varroa ( told to us at the ABF meeting). I have been friends with both these guys for many years and both are respected commercial beekeepers in the world of beekeeping. I believe when they say they had not seen hives crash so fast before. However the hives crashing in two weeks scenario was seen by me in Florida as far back as 1998. I personally looked at the 1200 deadout deep hive bodies reported as CCD from Missouri (not every box but the owner and help kept showing me frames). The vast majority showed PMS. I have long kept quiet on the CCD issue as I felt all research on honey bees would benefit the industry but I so far have not spoke with a beekeeper which had a large number of hives which fits the CCD description of 7-8 frames of brood and missing bees. I guess I will keep asking! Has beekeepers on BEE-L which filled out the CCD loss survey had deadouts with the *exact* CCD description. If so please say so! However I have spoke with a huge number of beekeepers which had unprecedented losses last fall and winter. Most think they have got an idea the source of their losses ( drought, hard freeze in spring and of course varroa)but signed the CCD survey hoping to get paid for their losses. In my opinion the first step to help beekeepers would have been to pay for a replacement package for those beekeepers ( instead of building a research facility to research CCD but what do I know). 75 million ( senate bill) sank the CCD help ship in my opinion when less than a million would have provided packages to those beekeepers with documented losses. Looks like little (if any ) real help for CCD is going to happen. Whatever we get in the Farm bill , from the honey board and almond board will most likely be it. Again I would love to hear from a beekeeper which filled out the survey and had 7-8 frames of healthy brood and NO bees. Go over what varroa and other methods he used and see if another reason might be explained for his losses. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:43:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD Circus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >It is simply impossible to inspect 100% of cargo containers entering any port, so it there is not just a chance, but a statistical certainty that Apis cerana will get into Australia, and bring Tropilaelaps clareae along for the ride. statistical certainty? I would think the U.S. would get pests off containers before Australia! Australia only gets a *tiny* percent ( population big difference)of the containers we get in the U.S. from areas of T. clareae. All of our current pests could have come off swarms on containers! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************