From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:00:51 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-81.1 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, ADVANCE_FEE_3,AWL,FUZZY_AMBIEN,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3, SARE_FRAUD_X4,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24C9A490A0 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFhrqE016524 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:17 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0710A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 184410 Lines: 4108 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:12:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Two abstracts of interest from the 2006 EurBee conference Intoxication of honeybees - interactions of plant protection products = and other factors Martina Wehling, Werner von der Ohe, Dietrich Brasse, Rolf Forster LAVES Institut f=FCr Bienenkunde Celle, E-mail: = martina.janke=A9laves.niedersachsen.de In recent years colony losses reiterated in Germany. Besides Varroosis = many other causes like other bee diseases, nutrition supply as well as = effects of pesticides have been discussed. A chronic feeding study was conducted to find any indications to what = extent negative effects of pesticides in sub-lethal doses can be defined = from effects of other stressors (pathogens, drugs, mix of plant = protection products, malnutrition of proteins) or if there will be found = any interactions or coactions. In screening programme effects of chronic dietary exposure to sub-lethal = doses of the insecticide imidacloprid were studied in honeybees being = loaded with a potential stressor (Varroa destructor, Nosema apis, drugs, = lack of pollen supply). The results confirm a chronic oral toxicity of = imidacloprid at concentrations which have in several previous studies = reported to be toxic to bees (100 ppb). However, no indications were = found for significant differences in sensitivity to imidacloprid between = bees being loaded with different stressors and control bees. Results confirm previous findings that optimizing of protein supply can = soften negative effects of stressors. In addition it became apparent = that bees from different colonies of the same apiary which were fed in = parallel varied in sensitivity. Semi-field experiment was conducted to asses the risks of mixing plant = protection products by simulating commercial application during blooming = on bee colonies foraging in commercial seed dressed rape with potential = residues in nectar and pollen. No adverse effects on mortality or on development of exposed bee = colonies had been found when bees foraged on rape of dressed seeds and = plants were sprayed with one single plant protection product alone = (pyrethroid resp. azol-fungicide) or in combination (tank mix pyrethroid = plus azol-fungicide). >From the findings of chronic feeding tests and semi-field test it can be = concluded that imidacloprid used as standard seed dressing formulation = will pose no risks to honeybees. -----=20 Imidacloprid and bee mortality in France M. Aubert, J.-P.Faucon, A.-C. Martel and M.-P.Chauzat=20 AFSSA, E-mail: m.aubert=A9afssa.fr In 1997, several beekeepers reported that colony death and weakness were = the consequence of the use of imidacloprid for seed dressing. This = product is indeed very toxic for bees as confirmed by laboratory and = semi-field tests. However, several field studies were conducted in = France and elsewhere with colonies kept close to cultures issued from = seeds dressed with imidacloprid. None has shown any adverse effect of = this product. This has been confirmed by some bee-keepers that testified = that they suffered no adverse effect from such cultures. Additionally, = observations in France revealed imidacloprid in pollen loads of several = surveyed apiaries with no acute adverse effects on them. An expert panel gathered by the French Ministry of agriculture studied = several scenarios of contamination of bee colonies by imidacloprid. = Experts concluded that several PEC/PNEC ratios were very preoccupying. = However the experiment we had conducted on colonies for mimicking the = natural consumption of contaminated nectar (the most risky scenario = according to the expert panel) did not show any adverse effect on the = tested colonies. This apparent discrepancy probably originates from the = security margins used in the above mentioned risk analysis. We conclude that, if contamination by imidacloprid from sunflower = cultures issued from treated seeds may have occurred simultaneously with = a period of colony losses as described by several French bee-keepers, = such occurrence has not been observed systematically, and no negative = impact on bee colonies of the use of Gaucho=AE has been experimentally = demonstrated in the field. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 00:33:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: Cameras for apiaries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't remember the price but WalMart had some good ones for a good price too. Russ Dean _WV Beekeepers Home Page_ (http://www.wvbeekeepers.org/) ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 02:25:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Prevention of rat damage to beehives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My solution, after having a hive trashed a few years back, is consistent use of rat poison. My hives are more accessible than yours though, so it might not work for you. After seeing what rats can do to a hive, it's alway puzzled me that bee books don't often mention them. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:47:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Prevention of rat damage to beehives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Rowbottom asked: > Does anyone have any ideas or (better) experience of controlling > rats in Winter in an outdoors rural situation. Both sites are 10-15 > miles from my home base so attendance at them will be > relatively infrequent. I have stopped them with wire netting, but the hives were stood on a solid concrete base, you might need to bury the netting if on earth. Alternatively, you could try traps, but they will need to be covered so that birds are not caught. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:11:39 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Prevention of rat damage to beehives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Mike I'm clueless on culling rats in such a situation, but if you are going to follow the advice to protect the hives with wire netting, remember the risk of Weil's disease entering through cuts to the skin. Rats spread this potentially fatal bacterium in their urine, and the disease is certainly in the UK. http://www.leptospirosis.org/ http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg84.pdf best wishes Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 04:06:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Development of Honey Hydrogel Dressing for Enhanced Wound Healing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Development of Honey Hydrogel Dressing for Enhanced Wound Healing Radiation Physics and Chemistry, Volume 76, Issues 11-12, November-December 2007, Pages 1767-1770 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/10/development-of-honey-hydrogel-dressing.html …Gelam honey attenuates wound inflammation; and re-epithelialization was well advanced compared to the treatment using silver sulphadiazine (SSD) cream. To enhance further the use of honey in wound treatment and for easy handling, Gelam honey was incorporated into our hydrogel dressing formulation, which was then cross-linked and sterilized using electron beam at 25 kGy… ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 07:28:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tceisele@MTU.EDU Subject: Re: Cameras for apiaries In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I don't remember the price but WalMart had some good ones for a good > price > too. > WalMart also had some really bad ones, so be careful. The $100 model we tried had terrible image resolution, and would only trigger about a quarter of the time on a human passing by within 10 feet. It was next to useless for actually photographing anything in real life. Luckily, WalMart has a very good return policy. When we returned it, the clerk mentioned that they had an extremely high return rate on those cameras. If you want a decent one, you'll probably have to go up to the mid-range models (about $200-$400), and if it is at all possible to test it out before buying it (or at least make sure that you can return it if it doesn't work right), I would advise doing so. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:01:25 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Prevention of rat damage to beehives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Has anyone in the US seen rat damage to their hives? A friend of mine keeps several hives close to a water recharge basin that has many rats but they have never attempted go into the hives. [Perhaps because he also keeps chickens and the rats tend to steel food from them.] Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:28:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: An open letter regarding Colony Collapse Disorder and science In-Reply-To: <813830.49016.qm@web31603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "I have received a request to disassociate Jeff Pettis, Jay Evans, and Dennis van Engelsdorp from 'An open letter regarding Colony Collapse Disorder and science' forwarded to BEE-L on Saturday, September 22, 2007. As public employees of federal and state governments, there is a risk that their association with this letter could lead readers to believe that the views represented reflect opinions held by their respective agencies. They do not." Aaron Morris, BEE-L Owner/Editor/Moderator ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 17:18:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD Circus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 19:04:51 -0400, James Fischer wrote: Jim its always a pleasure to get the depth of info from your posts. > >So, when you gonna send some bees in to Beltsville >for a Nosema test? > i'll admit i skipped the test, i had a fair amount of nosema symptoms this spring (staining in and outside the hives and dink cluster remaining) . that plus other regional reports of other beeks finding nosema from testing caused me to fork over the relatively high cost to treat all of my colonies this year. in fact today we are out today feeding with fumagilin. also today Doug McRory sent out some nosema survey results which show both variations of nosema in Ontario fairly prevelant. Brian ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 22:38:19 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Prevention of rat damage to beehives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Brenchley wrote: > My solution, after having a hive trashed a few years back, is consistent > use > of rat poison. OK if you can guarantee to find and dispose of the bodies safely, otherwise you will kill birds that prey on them. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 07:35:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD Circus In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > i'll admit i skipped the test, i had a fair amount of nosema symptoms this spring (staining in and > outside the hives and dink cluster remaining) . Can also be dysentery and not nosema, which is what I have generally found to be more prevalent in the North. It could be due to winter feed or Tracheal. I still have fumidil from years ago that I no longer use since the problems were not nosema. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 04:55:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Honey and Medicine: Past, Present and Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Honey and Medicine: Past, Present and Future P C Molan, Professor of Biological Sciences and Director of the Honey Research Unit University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/10/honey-and-medicine-past-present-and.html [Editor's Note: This is the first in a series of abstracts from the 1st International Conference on the Medicinal Uses of Honey (From Hive to Therapy) held by Universiti Sains Malaysia in August of 2006. The abstracts have been published by the Malaysian Journal of Medical Sciences (Vol.14 No.1, January 2007).] …It is predicted that in the future it will be widely used prophylactically to prevent infection of patients with "superbugs" in hospitals, and will come into use as standard treatment for: leprosy; for all surgical wounds to prevent infection, prevent scarring, and speed healing; for burns, to prevent infection and prevent further damage to tissues caused by inflammation resulting from the thermal damage; to minimise burning from radiotherapy for cancer; to minimise effects on the gut of chemotherapy for cancer; and will be fully accepted by the medical profession as a legitimate modern medicine. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:00:40 +0100 Reply-To: rrudd@eircom.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: CCD Circus In-Reply-To: <47022D07.9010302@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is it still viable? Any Fumidil I have seen has had a very short shelf life indicated on its label. Ruary -----Original Message----- I still have fumidil from years ago that I no longer use since the problems were not nosema. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 08:02:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: sustainable operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Brian Fredericksen wrote: >the non sustainable operation is so screwed up that all the CCD studies in the world will only be a band aid even if they do find something definitive to hang a hat on. Mr Fredericksen, You have repeatedly stated that large scale beekeeping operations have essentially created their own problems. I have inquired as to what practices you are referring to and what proof you have that any of these practices are actually causing any of the problems that have been observed. So far as I know, you have never really responded with specifics. A non-specific them vs. us diatribe may work on naive customers in the local farmers' market, but here you will have to provide a little more meat with the bread. I am not saying that there aren't practices that should be changed; I am wondering what evidence you have. Because if there isn't any, your argument boils down to "because I say so". For example, it is apparent that viruses may be transmitted vertically from queen breeding operations overseas to queen breeding operations in the USA, and thence to the customers' bees via the queen, her eggs and her drones' semen. This is a very real threat and what are we to do about? Some beekeepers don't buy queens from outside their operation which may be a good solution or not. It may be a defense against unwanted pathogens, but it would prevent the influx of new and better strains of bees. So, someone needs to look at how to break this vertical transmission route. Moving bees from south to north and back causes the movement of pests like the hive beetle. Perhaps a solution is to go back to moving only bees without comb. I am quite certain, however, that many people would prefer to control the pests rather than give up the ability to move their whole operations several times a year. In other words, specific problems have to be identified and specific solutions have to be developed. It is pointless to just go on about the big boys and their non-sustainable practices without identifying them and proposing realistic alternatives. Or perhaps you would just as soon see them all fail so that price of honey goes up to that of maple syrup. -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:16:08 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: sustainable operations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I have inquired as to what practices you are referring to and what proof you have that any of these practices are actually causing any of the problems that have been observed. Lloyd has recently mentioned a pollinator with 8,000 colonies who has treatments going all season and requeening with cells 8 times a season. That's about a queen cell per month in the active season! To me, that borders on the increadible if you think that a virgin will take about a week to emerge, another week to mature/mate/start laying. She's gotta be laying for about 2 weeks when another queen cell is inserted... I have a feeling that either a lot of the cells are torn down by bees happy with their queen or the treatments are screwing up the queens so badly the bees go for a new queen every time a cell is presented. You'd think they are raising their queen cells, too. Anyway, I would consider this operation very unsustainable. The wax in these colonies has got to be a toxic reservoir. From what I have seen elsewhere, this operator may likely be a master beekeeper. >>Perhaps a solution is to go back to moving only bees without comb. They have found small hive beetles in packages. Not a perfect solution. >>It is pointless to just go on about the big boys and their non-sustainable practices without identifying them and proposing realistic alternatives. Just want to add that there are a lot of small [and master] beekeepers to engage in unsustainable practices, too. A local beekeeper recently bought a queen from me because the previous one failed after some varroa treatment obtained from Germany (not sure if the treatment was not used per instructions). Well, my queen failed shortly after laying up both sides of a single frame. The bees raised some queen cells but these got torn down soon after being capped. My guess is the queen larvae were damaged by treatment residues. I raise a handful of queens and sell the extra ones over testing them (3-4 frames of good pattern and emerging brood) so I know my queens are good. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 08:36:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: sustainable operations In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Regarding statement or inferences that "You have repeatedly stated that large scale beekeeping operations have essentially created their own problems. I have inquired as to what practices you are referring to and what proof you have that any of these practices are actually causing any of the problems that have been observed." I have a hunch that much of what is being conveyed is an erroneous sense that large agricultural producers of (fill in the blank) are so hurried and harried, stretched so thin as to surrender their individualized attention to their animals/hives/fields, and thus, they are poor managers by virtue of their size. I don't necessarily share this point of view, but I've seen construction contractors and soybean farmers with such large operations that they race around like their butt was on fire, cutting corners, trying to beat the weather, mismanaging details, and generally doing a poor job. They'd probably make more money with less business and more attention to their work. And in a sense, they do create their own problems. Some people can grow too large or they get too greedy. And then there are some large producers that succeed because they possess a sense of good management. As I speak for myself, I know I gave more individualized attention to my bees when I had 4 hives, than when I grew to 150 hives. With 4 hives, I could take more time, and I had more focus to notice the small things. I could open a hive and examine each frame for ten minutes, counting brood, marking queens, etc. Today, I can't afford to fawn all over my bees and give each of them the T.L.C. I would like. But this doesn't make me a bad producer. As I work my bees, I frequently skip over some of the non-essential details in favor of working more hives. Yes, there is the potential for me to miss some things that could grow into larger problems, in a sense, creating my own problems. But with a larger operation, I've also become a better observer, a more astute manager of my time, and a better equipped juggler of my obligations and family responsibilities. I raise my own queens, make my own nucs/splits, produce both extracted and comb honey. I also retail and wholesale my honey. I like to think of my operation as sustainable. If I get much larger, I can foresee becoming more specialized into a niche in which I'll have to subsidize a lot of my activities to outside suppliers. Such a move would make me more efficient, but perhaps not more sustainable. And size doesn't necessarily convey a sense of being a poor manager. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 08:51:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Cameras for apiaries. In-Reply-To: <20070930.110235.4450.3@webmail06.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm curious why you want or think you need a camera in an apiary? Is this something I should be thinking about? Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:13:53 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: 2008Beekeeper_of_theYear MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _2008 Beekeeper_of_the Year_ (http://www.wvbeekeepers.org/2008Beekeeper_of_theYear.html) Russ Dean _WV Beekeepers Home Page_ (http://www.wvbeekeepers.org/) ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 10:33:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I answered Peter Borst's posting off-line; he'd noted that he checks for mites in his strongest hives. I thought his response of general interest and copy it here: On 10/1/07, Mea McNeil wrote: > > On the face of it, this seems to not make sense -- but this is what I do. > > Peter, It makes sense to me, as the mites are reproducing in a larger > > number of brood cells. Mea Hi Mea What I meant was, it doesn't *seem* to make sense to look for mites in the best hives, since one might think that these would be the best able to defend themselves. Unfortunately, a big strong happy hive is perfect for mites to thrive in, and they quickly get the better of them. A lot of times a hive that is pretty far gone from mite damage won't even have all that many mites in it, giving a false reading. I suppose the mites may start to jump ship as the colony fails -- but who knows? Nobody has really studied the movement of mites between colonies. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:49:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ted_Hancock?= Subject: Re: Prevention of rat damage to beehives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 23:19:14 +0100, Mike Rowbottom wrote: >Hi > >Two years back my wife and I lost two hives that were trashed >by rats (rattus norvegicus) on one apiary site-they were the only >two hives there. On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 23:19:14 +0100, Mike Rowbottom wrote: Two years back my wife and I lost two hives that were trashed >by rats (rattus norvegicus) on one apiary site-they were the only >two hives there. Hi Mike, I have never had a problem with rattus norvegicus in bee hives nor have I ever heard of anyone having such problems in Canada. Beekeepers in the province of Alberta are especially lucky in that their provinces has no rats and the government employes a crew to wipe out any incursions. Here in B.C. we have Pack rats ( Neotoma cinerea ). I have never had one trouble an occupied beehive but they will try and move into empty equipment. Pack rats like to move things around - take some end bars and replace them with cow dung for example. Because of this I once lost a bunch of end bars I had stored in a barn. I think they ended up underneath the floor boards. I live in ranching country and there are many stories of cowboys having epic battles with pack rats that have moved into cow camp cabins. Pack rats can be extremely difficult to trap if they learn what a trap is through a close call. I know of one cowboy, Hank, who spent a winter, alone, off in cabin at the back of a ranch with such a pack rat. The final straw, so to speak, came one night when the rat peed on Hank's one and only tea towel. I guess living in isolated conditions like that can help a man get inside a rat's head because the next day Hank had his epiphany. He realized that pack rat piss is Neotoma's kryptonite. So that night he placed the soiled tea towel over the trap and the rat dove right in to roll and was killed. Hank saved the towel and found it never failed to catch a rat. Eventually he began to loan it to others and it proved equally successful so that the towel has now taken on mystical proportions and is refered to reverently as 'The Shroud of Urine'. I don't think Hank will let me send the shroud overseas but I pass on the information hoping it will be of some use. Ted ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 18:05:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: CCD Circus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/10/2007 23:56:50 GMT Standard Time, amesfarm@HOTMAIL.COM writes: So, when you gonna send some bees in to Beltsville >for a Nosema test? You don't need to send them off as you can easily check at home. All you need is an 'every schoolboy should have one' microscope giving 400x magnification and some recently dead bees. In fact you could ask school kids to do it for you. What I don't think you can do at home though is to distinguish between Nosema apis and N. ceraneae. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 18:47:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: sustainable operations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think the one practice that makes little sense is the interaction of fall/winter movements of bees, and the amping up of the hives for almonds and the reality of mites. I have not met or heard via publications of many commercial beekeepers who use mite resistant strains of bees and minimal to no mite treatments. Instead many migratory beeks prefer an Italian strain which likes to keep brooding when ever stimulated with feed. While there are many many different operations out there in general I beleive its safe to say that they run a bee that's not very resistant to mites, keep them brooding all year around and are forced to treat in spring and fall. If you wanted to keep your bees healthy Peter would you keep them brooded up all winter? Do you like to treat in spring? It makes little sense without a $150/hive check for almonds in the spring cause your bees are not always going to look great in the spring if you maintain them like that. What I am saying is in the varroa mite environment we all operate in here in the USA, the migratory method of operation *in general* does not make much sense if you're trying to keep healthy bees and not be constantly replacing bees. The practices of migratory pollination do not fit with the realities of the mite/bee world we live in. This has a trickle down effect as most of the package bees and queens offered to all beeks tend to be the kind of bee a commercial operation uses. Furthermore its obvious that the frequent movement of migratory colonies spreads pests and disease..........VERY QUCIKLY. I'm sorry Peter but I'm not going to pull out some literature or fancy science study to back up my opinion because in this case its my opinion. Take it or leave it. I'm not alone either and I find more and more beeks that agree with me in some way. Its a growing disparity that I see growing wider with time. The migratory segment and the sustainable/stationary/hobbyist segment have completely different goals and values. Some of us are growing tired and weary of the effects of Feedlot Beekeeping is having on the rest of beekeeping in the US. We're dissapointed as many common sense measures are employed around the world with success and here we sit beholden to the needs of an unsustainable industry which was behind the importation of bees into the USA for self serving needs and not IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF ALL U.S. BEEKS. If commercial beekeping is so wonderful and sustainable Peter why then import bees for the first time in decades? Most statistics paint a dismal picture of the indsutry. I'd be ROFLMAO if someone tried to claim here that everything is rosy and migratory beekeeping is sustainable economically and environementally. Its a predictable and likely coming disaster really. Just wait, the best is yet to come IMO, the industry and media cried wolf over a 5-10% loss over CCD. What will they do when they have a really contagious problem? You think any beek would have turned the semi around last Jan when the media was full of CCD? Not with the golden rainbow of $150/Hive at the end of the trail. Next time the boogie man may be for real and every beek with a truck load of bees can get a dose of it in CA in Jan and we WILL have a big problem. You compare this circus with ANY ag animal industry and you find we have few if any common sense measures in place....its the wild west out there with little to no oversight which ultimately puts every beek at risk, and for what? a bunch of nut farmers in CA who over planted with no plan for how they would pollinate? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:33:39 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Sarah and Simon Peacey Subject: Re: Nosema In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris, We have the 400 power microscope but have never known how to prepare a slide for checking for Nosema and what to look for. We would really appreciate it if you could you give me a "microscope for dummies" version of how to prepare a slide and what to look for etc or refer me to somewhere that would provide this. Thanks Simon and Sarah Peacey, Wairua Apiaries, 76 Malone Road, R.D.9 Whangarei, New Zealand. Ph/fax 09-4346344 0210319127 or 0210319129 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 20:41:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juan Carlos =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fern=E1ndez?= Campos Subject: Bacillus thuringiensis ...Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi everyone! Recently, i have found an article about solving Varroa problem in Cuba using Bacillus thuringiensis, any coments? Juan carlos _____________________________________________________________ »» Sistema de Correos Facultad de Cultura Física -- Camagüey -- Cuba «« » Administrado por GESPRO (Grupo de Estudio de Software y Proyectos) « » Este mensaje ha sido analizado con MDaemon Kaspersky Antivirus « ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 19:48:15 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Cameras for apiaries. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I'm curious why you want or think you need a camera in an apiary? Is this something I should be thinking about? I'd like to see what opposums and raccoons do around my hives. I've noticed some light objects (pieces of wood) moved a short distance overnight. That's in my backyard. In my front yard, we've recently had a couple of cases of vandalism - like someone pouring herbicide (I assume) that killed my great blooming cat mints or someone pouring some asphalt sealer on my concrete driveway - and I'd like to catch the culprit(s) red-handed. So this camera would be dual use. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 22:42:08 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: sustainable operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen persisted: > I think the one practice that makes little sense is the > interaction of fall/winter movements of bees, and the > amping up of the hives for almonds and the reality of mites. The almond growers would tend to disagree, as would the beekeepers who pollinate almonds. To comply with your wishes, should they all close up shop, and walk away from their livelihoods? I'm sure once they listen to you, they will all see the light, drop their hive tools, and go get jobs as greeters at Mall-Wart. > Instead many migratory beeks prefer an Italian strain which > likes to keep brooding when ever stimulated with feed. You clearly have no clue about what migratory beekeepers prefer. > While there are many many different operations out there in > general I beleive its safe to say that ...you haven't seen any of them, you haven't ridden with any of them, and you don't know any migratory beekeepers well enough to make any statements about them. > If you wanted to keep your bees healthy Peter would you keep > them brooded up all winter? Funny you should mention that little point, as it evinces a very basic misunderstanding of bee biology and behavior. No matter what tricks you try, you can't keep a hive "brooded up" all winter. You can provide all the feed and fresh pollen you want, the bees and queen still know about the winter solstice, and obey the seasons. You could move the bees to the equator, and it would not help. > What I am saying is in the varroa mite environment we all > operate in here in the USA, the migratory method of operation > *in general* does not make much sense if you're trying to keep > healthy bees and not be constantly replacing bees. Again, a lack of exposure to the very practices you condemn is revealed. Migratory beekeepers understand that their hives need to be strong if they are to earn a decent fee for pollinating. The beekeeper that shows up with weak hives does not get paid full price, and does not get called back next year. > The practices of migratory pollination do not fit with the > realities of the mite/bee world we live in. Once again, claims are being made and accusations tossed out without even a basic understanding of the subject matter behind them. The "reality" is that migratory beekeeping is the only possible way to serve most crops, as one must flee with one's bees in dark of night to avoid the spraying of poison scheduled for dawn. To allow a change in the way the overwhelming majority of bees are kept, one must change much more than the minds of beekeepers. One must understand that the beekeepers are very much the tail being wagged by the large dog of agriculture. No one is about to change the way they grow things for the convenience of mere beekeepers. > I'm sorry Peter but I'm not going to pull out some literature > or fancy science study to back up my opinion because ...there isn't any that backs up your opinion. > The migratory segment and the sustainable/stationary/hobbyist > segment You once again present a false choice - migratory need not be "unsustainable", no matter what contrived definition you want to assign to the term. Also, very few stationary beekeepers could be called "sustainable", and almost no hobbyists. The problem here is not the difference between migratory and stationary, or sustainable and "unsustainable", it is merely the difference between "large" and "smaller". Larger beekeepers would gladly adopt many of the practices you might advocate, if only these practices would "scale up" to larger operations without labor levels that bankrupt the operation. > ...the effects of Feedlot Beekeeping A meaningless, but emotional nonsense phrase, pure disparagement, and 100% fact-free. Apologize. You insult your fellow beekeepers, when you could not survive even a week on the road with them. "Feedlot" and "sustainable" are meaningless words, used with no other intent than to hurt others without cause. The terms are merely an expression of your rage, not a description of the way anyone keeps bees. > If commercial beekeping is so wonderful and sustainable Peter > why > then import bees for the first time in decades? Ah, you stumbled upon something interesting there - the imports. The imports were FORCED upon the US by US membership in the WTO. Meanwhile, the almond growers were expanding their acreage steadily. There was no "bee shortage" as much as there was an "almond grove over-expansion". I'm sure that the Almond growers thought that their problems were going to be solved by these imports, just toss 'em in a box, and haul 'em up to the almond groves. It didn't work out that way. Packages make lousy pollinators as compared to "overwintered" colonies. The almond growers' attempt to turn the beekeepers' value-added into a commodity failed. The value-added was still required. So, trying to position imported bees as some sort of desperate measure taken by beekeepers who had no other choice is just silly. Beekeepers never had, and never will have the clout to make such things happen. Yes, some beekeepers decided to give these imports a try, and another source of bees, even at higher cost, might have seemed a good idea at the time, moreso because they could be delivered "early". But no one was desperate for these imports. The almond growers just thought that they could force the price per hive down with "migrant labor". Another point - what forced beekeepers to adopt practices that you would dismiss as "unsustainable"? Most of them are approaches intended to keep their hives alive in the face of all the exotic invasive diseases and pests that have appeared in the US as a direct result of all this so-called "free trade" that has been going on since the 1980s. Agriculture in general has faced the same problem to a lesser extent. So, if you want a "bad guy" to blame, don't blame the poor migratory beekeeper who was FORCED to do things that his father or grandfather did not do by all these new invasives. Blame the people that backed the WTO, NAFTA, and now, CAFTA. > Most statistics paint a dismal picture of the indsutry. Which ones? We'd like a list please, as the rest of us have been dismayed by the lack of up-to-date statistics on the industry. But you don't know any, do you? You're just making stuff up again. > Its a predictable and likely coming disaster really. Funny, I think that "the end of beekeeping, film at 11" has been announced about 5 times in the past 20 years. Strange how we all just keep plugging away, isn't it? > Just wait, the best is yet to come IMO, the industry > and media cried wolf over a 5-10% loss over CCD. The statement above is about as ignorant of the facts as could be. Deny all you want, you are outnumbered by guys who have first-hand experience. You should thank whatever God your might worship that you have not been hit. I thought that this was a mailing list for the INFORMED discussion of beekeeping. How could this possibly be an INFORMED view? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 23:53:21 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Rogers Subject: Re: Nosema In-Reply-To: <000b01c8054c$a9ac16a0$0201a8c0@mainpc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Preparation and Examination of Honey Bee Samples for Detection of Nosema Spores http://www.wildwoodlabs.com/viewer.php?article_id=3D84 On 10/2/07, Sarah and Simon Peacey wrote: > > Chris, > We have the 400 power microscope but have never known how to prepare a > slide > for checking for Nosema and what to look for. We would really appreciate > it > if you could you give me a "microscope for dummies" version of how to > prepare a slide and what to look for etc or refer me to somewhere that > would > provide this. > > Thanks > > Simon and Sarah Peacey, > Wairua Apiaries, > 76 Malone Road, > R.D.9 > Whangarei, New Zealand. > Ph/fax 09-4346344 > 0210319127 or 0210319129 > > ****************************************************** > * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * > * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * > ****************************************************** > --=20 R.E.L. (Dick) Rogers, MSc, PAg, PhD Candidate Wildwood Labs Inc NS, Canada Skype: wildwoodlabs 902.679.2818 (Can) drogers@wildwoodlabs.com www.wildwoodlabs.com -- NOTE: This e-mail message is intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify the sender and delete this e-mail message. NOTE: Ce courriel est destin=E9 exclusivement au(x) destinataire(s) mentionn=E9(s) ci-dessus et peut contenir de l'information privil=E9gi=E9e, confidentielle et/ou dispens=E9e de divulgation aux termes des lois applicables. Si vous avez re=E7u ce message par erreur, ou s'il ne vous es= t pas destin=E9, veuillez le mentionner imm=E9diatement =E0 l'exp=E9diteur et= effacer ce courriel. -- ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 00:00:45 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Rogers Subject: Nosema article in press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline First detection of *Nosema ceranae*, a microsporidian parasite of European honey bees (*Apis mellifera*), in Canada and central USA doi:10.1016/j.jip.2007.08.005 --=20 R.E.L. (Dick) Rogers, MSc, PAg, PhD Candidate Wildwood Labs Inc NS, Canada Skype: wildwoodlabs 902.679.2818 (Can) drogers@wildwoodlabs.com www.wildwoodlabs.com -- NOTE: This e-mail message is intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify the sender and delete this e-mail message. NOTE: Ce courriel est destin=E9 exclusivement au(x) destinataire(s) mentionn=E9(s) ci-dessus et peut contenir de l'information privil=E9gi=E9e, confidentielle et/ou dispens=E9e de divulgation aux termes des lois applicables. Si vous avez re=E7u ce message par erreur, ou s'il ne vous es= t pas destin=E9, veuillez le mentionner imm=E9diatement =E0 l'exp=E9diteur et= effacer ce courriel. -- ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 22:37:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: sustainable operations MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Peter wrote: For example, it is apparent > that viruses may be transmitted vertically from queen breeding > operations overseas to queen breeding operations in the USA, and > thence to the customers' bees via the queen, her eggs and her drones' > semen. If I understand correctly, most of the viruses that are causing the problems may not be new, and they may always be with us (the bees). IMO it is fundamental to limit ALL stresses that cause the viruses to propagate to the point they become problematic.. Until I can be shown otherwise I will attempt to practice this kind of beekeeping. I find it interesting that my beekeeping acquaintances who do use chemical control, probably to late, are bemoaning dwindling colonies and poor honey crops, just the opposite of my experience. We have the same races of bees and very similar foraging environment.some overlapping. I practice mite control all season, and only use veg oil for trachea mite. I am not advocating my procedures only that it is evident to me that excessive V mite loads may be much less than what is published. I have culled out most all previously chemical treated comb and on second year of management practices. I find that come mid/late August mites are extremely scarce in drone brood. I consider any deficiency or excessive manipulations to be a stress but do not have a quantitative handle on them (who does?) My last statement: IMO viruses are not going away! Alden Marshall Hudson, NH ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 21:26:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: sustainable operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian said: While there are many many different operations out there in general I beleive its safe to say that they run a bee that's not very resistant to mites, keep them brooding all year around and are forced to treat in spring and fall. I also am very surprised at the lack of demand for mite-resistant queens--those are the queens that are most profitable for me. However, as you say, there are many different ways of operating. I've been migratory for nearly 30 years, but not as in the model that you describe. Almonds are only two hours from me. I migrate further to good summer pasture for natural feeding. I have only in the past few years done much feeding, and that is mostly of singles that would otherwise not brood up when left here in dry California. The feeding that I do is to try to duplicate the natural situation that those east of the Rockies naturally experience--pollen and nectar from July 'til frost. Strong colonies with plenty of natural pollen need no supplemental feeding for almonds whatsoever. They can shut down naturally about Nov 1, and naturally start brooding up in Calif just after the winter solstice. The only reason to feed them in January is if you plan to split them, or if they went into fall deficient in natural pollen. Bees that spent the fall on good pasture build naturally for almonds with no help from the beekeeper, other than a good winter location. My point is, not all migratory beekeepers fit the "unsustainable" mold. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 08:06:47 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Nosema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Simon and Sarah > if you could you give me a "microscope for dummies" version ... Squish bee guts in water and look for rice grains - but I'm sure that there are much more experienced folk that can give you a more exact protocol. Before you get the microscope slide out, you can tell from inspecting the midgut: http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/nosema.html Anyone with an interest in Nosema would be well advised to look at this 2Mb PDF, particularly the second presentation by Ingemar Fries: http://www.dipucordoba.es/medioambiente/pdf/XJornadasApiPonencia01.pdf It seems possible to distinguish N. apis from N. ceranae from the spore size, the presence or absence of empty spores and the exact tissue infected. The rapid worldwide spread of N. cernae seems amazing if true, I wonder if oriental honey rather than trade in live bees might be responsible? all the best Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:29:48 +0100 Reply-To: rrudd@eircom.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Nosema In-Reply-To: <000b01c8054c$a9ac16a0$0201a8c0@mainpc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The sample of bees required is 30 per colony. All the abdomens are separated and crushed with some water, use a shallow dish or watch glass and a spoon (or glass rod to do the rushing). Tilt the dish so that the dirty water separates from the debris of the crushed bodies. Take a drop of the dirty liquid ( use a glass rod) place it on slide, cover and examine at X400, nosema spores have been described as being the shape of 'rice grains' with a hard bright edge. There will be a lot of much pollen grains, hairs from the bee etc. Shift the focus slightly up and down and the 'rice grains' will become very clear. Most colonies of bees will have some nosema grains, it is when you see numerous grains that you should get worried. Treatment is by the use of fumigillan and the 'Baily shift', the latter gets the colony onto clean frames with minimal disruption of the colony. Sterlise all brood combs when removed from the colony with fumigation with 80% acetic acid, (food grade will suffice). Ruary -----Original Message----- We have the 400 power microscope but have never known how to prepare a slide for checking for Nosema and what to look for. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:04:36 +0100 Reply-To: rrudd@eircom.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Nosema In-Reply-To: <3a51f42e0710021953q76466439jf583c929b045a1d7@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a very exacting protocol to determine the number of spores per bee. Unfortunately the protocol then refuses to co-relate number of spores to need for treatment. I doubt if anyone checking for nosema spores in a colony goes to the extent of washing the mortar with 70% ethanol etc, and very few would use a haemocytometer. Ruary -----Original Message----- Preparation and Examination of Honey Bee Samples for Detection of Nosema Spores http://www.wildwoodlabs.com/viewer.php?article_id=84 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 07:55:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: sustainable operations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > For example, it is apparent that viruses may be transmitted vertically from queen breeding operations overseas to queen breeding operations in the USA, and thence to the customers' bees via the queen, her eggs and her drones' semen. > If I understand correctly, most of the viruses that are causing the >problems may not be new, and they may always be with us (the bees)... Until I can be shown otherwise I will attempt to practice this kind of beekeeping. Right, but that was my point. Viruses *may be* transmitted this way, but to stop buying queens and bees from other people is simply not a sensible option even so. That would be like stopping international air travel to prevent the spread of human diseases. Cure worse than disease, etc. I lived during the last years of the polio epidemic and I remember the crazy paranoid things people did, like not let their kids go swimming in public places. In fact, out of the five in my family, only I caught it. So, isolation is not the key but getting at the underlying cause of the problem. Finally, while I commend people for thinking and talking about "sustainable farming" you would have to be a crystal ball reader to really know the consequences of any particular practice. I think it is a safe bet that beekeeping in one form or another will be around as long as people are. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 13:59:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Nosema In-Reply-To: <135215.6786.qm@web86204.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gavin & all > http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/nosema.html What that page lacks in content will be more than made up for in it's successor, which I have been working on for more than a year, the new page will have a comic strip like succession of drawings giving the full life cycle along with many other details that have been picked up, including write up by an expert on Micro Sporidia that has been specially commissioned. I have just moved the page further up the queue, but do not expect it will be finished very quickly, however, I can give you a link to one of the images which may help... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/jpg/nosema_spores.jpg Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:12:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: sustainable operations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim Fischer writes: “Also, very few stationary beekeepers could be called "sustainable", and almost no hobbyists.” As you have already stated, what is sustainable and what is not do not have universally accepted definitions. If by sustainable we mean someone who keeps doing it year after year no matter what then I’m sure we can all agree there are a lot of us glutens for punishment out there that have to keep buying packages every couple of years who would fit that definition. I know a lot of hobbyist beekeepers, and I can’t say any of them have broken out of this cycle yet, although we still think it should be possible. Most of these people resist using any kind of chemicals in their hives, and yet they don’t do much alternative stuff either because it would involve really concentrating on beekeeping. I mean you should see the line of crusty old beekeepers at the Beez Neez Apiary Supply store every year at package pickup time. The other thing that needs clarification is what is the difference between a hobbyist and a commercial beekeeper. I think it makes sense to define commercial as anyone who at least tries to break even financially at beekeeping. The reason I say this is because anyone who has more that fifty hives and still thinks of himself as a hobbyist probably needs some kind of counseling. That includes a lot of sub-corporate, non migratory beekeepers who couldn’t fill a 1 ½ ton, flat bed pick up, much less a semi truck, with hives. But as a hobbyist, being really small kind of puts you at a disadvantage as far as keeping it all going year after year without outside help goes. A real breeding program is kind of beyond the scope at this level. A hard winter, or any one of the multitude of dreaded be maladies can wipe you out or at least put you down to one or two hives which doesn’t leave you with much to build back up with. I really appreciate the package bee industry out there trying to give us the best bee for the job. And I do like cheap almonds although I could live without them… if I had to. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:15:30 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Nosema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Before you get the microscope slide out, you can > tell from inspecting the midgut: No, you can't. The midgut test was completely discredited years ago. Here's the problem - the "mid-gut test" was thought to be a good idea, but was later found to only reveal evidence of the very worst cases of Nosema The microscope approach is the way to go, and even the cheapest child's microscope you can find will work just fine. (But do get yourself a nice bright light source for it, like a halogen desk lamp. I dunno about the 400x - that would make for a very small field of view. I've always used 100x. But clearly, 1000x is too strong, and less than 100x might not reveal the detail. Now, Eric Mussen (who seems to be the US specialist on the subject of Nosema) says that it is hard to "calibrate" one's home microscope with lab results, and he's right - when you focus the microscope, you are focusing on a very narrow range within the drop of liquid - like maybe a 1-foot slice of a 20-foot deep "pond". So you have to look all over the drop, and may see only a few paramecium-like Nosema spores. The good news is that nothing else looks even close to a Nosema spore. The other good news is that it does not matter which kind of Nosema you see, the treatment is exactly the same. So, you really don't need to care which kind of Nosema is which. Now Eric wants to convince us all to look at some bees from a sample, and send the rest of the sample in for analysis, and thereby calibrate how many spores we see with how many spores the lab tests reveal, but again, not to worry - Nosema has been so bad recently, I'd treat if I saw ANY spores in ANY samples. Nosema has been just that prevalent in the US and Canada recently. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:51:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: sustainable operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have been busy lately so only have had time to read BEE-L. Trying to get things caught up with getting the bees ready for winter. I am doing an update article on the Australian package Bees of Browns Bees of Australia. The article will be in the December issue of the American Bee Journal. I have been provided a list of beekeepers (over 40 )which received packages from Browns Bees. I have already spoke with a couple and will speak with most of the rest. >From the current issue of the "Speedy bee" by Troy Fore: " Why don't all U.S. beekeepers who have Australian bees in their outfits also have CCD? Some of these beekeepers report the best bees ever this season" I have spoke with the Sullivans running 10,000 Australian hives and they report excellent bees with no out of the ordinary problems and six percent losses last winter. They have got 4,000 package bees on order for this season. I spoke with Dennis Potts and he got Australian packages , did almond pollination and four other pollination's and then made an average of over 200 pounds of honey each in South Dakota. I leave Sunday to meet with Dennis and go through hives of this years package bees. Dennis is the nearest beekeeper which got this year packages to me but Dennis is still a two day drive. The rep of Browns bees said all the feedback was positive this year. Dennis Potts is pulling and extracting honey now so will travel to check his bees for the article. Take pictures. Possibly visit others as will be stopping at commercial operations in Nebraska and Minnesota. I saw many names I was familiar with and some old friends on the list provided. Two beekeepers which used package bees from Browns Bees this season were David Hackenberg & Lance Sundberg which I am going to contact also. >From what I have seen so far it seems the package bees form Australia are getting a bum rap but will report honestly what the beekeepers say and use names. The problem seems to be that if you do not have a need for package bees in January ( none available other than Australia) then you are dead against the import regardless. If you are one of the beekeepers which need those bees to replace deadouts or get hives up to standards for almonds then you are for the import. I think its fair to say the bee outfits with the most hives want the Australian bees and they have got the most to lose from a new pest entering the country. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 19:41:31 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: sustainable operations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>“Also, very few stationary beekeepers could be called "sustainable", and almost no hobbyists.” ...what is sustainable and what is not do not have universally accepted definitions. There are some broad concepts of sustainable agriculture accepted throughout the world. Here is what the University of California at Davis thinks www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/concept.htm Beekeeping falls under agricultural practices and the majority of concieous hobbyists can certainly aspire to keep their bees in a sustainable way. One does not need to lose bees every year to be sustainable. Resistant bees and OA are sustainable. In the method and concentration OA is used it is not toxic to the environment (except the hive inhabitants - very damaging to mites and much less so to the bees) or people. >>The other thing that needs clarification is what is the difference between a hobbyist and a commercial beekeeper. Both can be equally sustainable. I guess a sustainable commercial beekeeper could make a claim he is not profitable (enough). I would dispute that because there is a ready market for products raised in a sustainable way. >>And I do like cheap almonds although I could live without them… if I had to. One does not have to. You can raise hardy almonds in your own backyard. :) It does not get any cheaper than that. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 17:23:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: sustainable operations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit * Isolation, even if it were possible, may be exactly the opposite of what is needed right now. Despite the fact that the constant transfer of bees leads to the transfer of pests and disorders, the exchange of honey bee stock may actually increase the vigor of the bees themselves. Quoted for review purposes only: > Some researchers are wondering if commercial honey bee stocks are based on too narrow a genetic base— and that this makes them vulnerable to diseases. Honey bee colonies comprise a large number of related animals that live at high densities and exchange food by mouth; these are ideal conditions for the development of epidemics. Workers have numerous defences against disease, including an innate immune system and behaviors in which some workers seek out disease brood and remove it from the colony. To be effective, behavioral defences in particular require a high level of genetic variation *within* colonies. This allows colonies to respond resiliently to the variety of pathogenic and other challenges they face. If all workers are the same, they may solve one problem brilliantly but be more vulnerable to others. from What’s Killing American Honey Bees? by Benjamin P. Oldroyd PLoS Biology | www.plosbiology.org ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 19:28:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Nosema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/10/2007 01:46:43 GMT Standard Time, peacey@XNET.CO.NZ writes: We have the 400 power microscope but have never known how to prepare a slide for checking for Nosema and what to look for. We would really appreciate it if you could you give me a "microscope for dummies" version of how to prepare a slide and what to look for etc or refer me to somewhere that would provide this. This rough and ready method will bring down a horde of sneerful, scornful mails from the posh folks who do it the proper way. As you're Commonwealth I can use terms with which our host might not be too familiar. Invert a teacup. Into the concave base crush with a teaspoon the abdomens of a few bees from a known hive. Add a few drops of distilled water (ice scrapings from the freezer wall allowed to melt). Stir. Transfer a drop of the fluid to the slide. Add a cover slip. Place on the microscope stage. Focus. Look at the fluid. You will see all sorts of floating gubbins: vacuum cleaner hoses; leafless fir trees; silver balloons; rounded geometrical shapes of varying complexity and size; grains of rice. These are tracheae; plumose hairs; air bubbles; pollen grains; nosema spores, in that order. I hope that helps. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 04:54:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Study: Honey Has Greater Inhibitory Effect than Antibiotics on Some Bacteria MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Study: Honey Has Greater Inhibitory Effect than Antibiotics on Some Bacteria Antimicrobial Effect of Bee Honey in Comparison to Antibiotics on Organisms Isolated from Infected Burns Annals of Burns and Fire Disasters - vol. XX - n. 2 - June 2007 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/10/study-honey-has-greater-inhibitory.html The present study aims to evaluate the antimicrobial effect of bee honey on organisms isolated from infected burns in comparison to the antibiotics used in treatment of burn infection, and to evaluate the effects produced when bee honey is added to antibiotic discs… Topical Application of Honey for Burn Wound Treatment - An Overview Subrahmanyam M., Department of Surgery, Bharati Vidyapeeth University Medical College and Hospital, Sangli, Maharashtra, India Annals of Burns and Fire Disasters http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/10/topical-application-of-honey-for-burn.html SUMMARY: The use of honey in the treatment of burn wounds is discussed and an attempt is made to assess honey's current status as a burn wound dressing. Various kinds of honey are considered, as also the history of its use for this purpose since ancient times. The scientific reasons for honey's appropriateness in burns treatment are reviewed and an account is provided of the main benefits of such treatment. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:27:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Nosema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When you find your nosema spores, as you surely will, what, in New Zealand, are you going to do about it? I am presuming (without knowing) that antibiotics are not used by beekeepers in NZ. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:21:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: sustainable operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/10/2007 22:33:04 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: Workers have numerous defences against disease, including an innate immune system and behaviors in which some workers seek out disease brood and remove it from the colony. The brood nest is warm, moist, and full of food of the sort that makes the hive environment particularly suitable for micro bugs of all sorts. And yet the genome shows that the honeybee immune system has less genetic input than in the few other insects studied so far. From this one would expect honeybee colonies to be riddled with diseases far more than they usually are. Why are they normally so disease free? One possible answer is they they are 'borrowing' the immune systems of the plants they forage on, especially for propolis which is known to have anti viral and anti bacterial properties. Could it be that one of the factors pre-disposing colonies to collapse might be shortage of propolis? This might be because they are in an agricultural environment where little is available; they have been bred selectively not to collect it; they are kept in such numbers that there isn't enough of the right quality (whatever that is) to go around. Has the amount and quality of propolis found in CCD hives been compared with those that appear to be healthy? Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:02:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: William Farler Subject: Irradiation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does irradiation (food grade gamma irradiation) of honey kill all spores that may be present in honey? (EFB, AFB, various virus', etc.) --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 20:19:43 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Better pollen digestion and storage? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A beekeeper from Europe mentioned to me that it's best to mix pollen with honey in a jar. Supposedly, the acidic honey dissolves the pollen 'shell' making it more digestable/nutritious for humans. I suppose it also prevents mold from growing on the pollen. Anybody know more about this approach? Does it preserve pollen nutrition and make it more available to us? I mixed a jar of pollen and honey last night but placed it in the fridge just in case. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 18:06:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Propolis & immune systems In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris Slade wrote:............. especially for propolis which is known to have anti viral and anti bacterial properties. Could it be that one of the factors pre-disposing colonies to collapse might be shortage of propolis? Has the amount and quality of propolis found in CCD hives been compared with those that appear to be healthy? Chris Hey Chris, Way to go. You have a brand new paddle with which to stir the pot. It surely is something upon which to contemplate. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 18:20:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Irradiation In-Reply-To: <656309.175.qm@web52212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit William Farler wrote: Does irradiation (food grade gamma irradiation) of honey kill all spores that may be present in honey? (EFB, AFB, various virus', etc.) Where can you find food grade irradiation sites? Will the process prepackaged hive units (packaged with plastic bags so that there no danger of dropping debris)? What level of irradiation needs to be used to ensure the demise of all spores in the honey, in the equipment, in the pollen packets? Does irradiation degrade the quality of the pollen? Mike in LA --------------------------------- Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 21:39:39 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Irradiation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Does irradiation (food grade gamma irradiation) of honey kill all spores Yes, it kills everything that might be alive. The trick is getting the correct beam flux to penetrate both the container and the honey. I'm not sure why anyone would want to bother to irradiate honey if the honey was to be eaten by humans, and I couldn't think of a more expensive way to feed bees than to take something very valuable, like honey, and add cost by irradiating it. Also, note that consumers have a very negative reaction to food that has been irradiated even though the process does nothing but good. (Yet another example of the price of a of basic science education.) So, what's your idea here? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 21:22:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Formic Acid and brood destruction In-Reply-To: <485543.21012.qm@web53404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brood loss has been indicated as a possibility when using Formic acid as a miticide. Since I have used this acid as a treatment for low level varroa mite control (my colonies, as last year are showing a low level of brood presence at this period and temperatures have been near perfect), I would be most grateful for any information on what Formic acid damaged brood looks like. Has it any particular characteristics? Thanks in advance, Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:55:54 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Irradiation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike asked > Where can you find food grade irradiation sites? I cannot speak for the USA but here in Australia we have three sites at Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. >Will the process prepackaged hive units (packaged with plastic bags so that >there no danger of dropping debris)? We have certain protocols that we must adhere to for the gear we send to be irradiated. One is that the frames inside the boxes must be in plastic bags to stop any debris or honey dripping out. >What level of irradiation needs to be used to ensure the demise of all >spores in the honey, in the equipment, in the pollen packets? For us 10kgy will kill AFB, 15 kgy for chalkbrood and EFB. I haven't seen any figures for nosema but as we ask for 15kgy I would imagine nosema is being zapped also. >Does irradiation degrade the quality of the pollen? Apparently not. Actually it can enhance the life of pollen. If you have frozen pollen, after about a year the fats start to go off. If you seal a container of pollen and then have it irradiated, it will last for several years and be suitable to feed back. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 23:16:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: sustainable operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I said in previous post: > Two beekeepers which used package bees from Browns Bees this season were David Hackenberg & Lance Sundberg which I am going to contact also. The above is not correct. David Hackenberg got his 2007 Australian bees from another supplier (other than Brown's bees)and those bees entered through Miami ( and had the single Australian IAPV find). At least four different shippers ship packages into the U.S. and the import is painted with a broad brush. The reason for my mistake. David and I have spoke a few times about his last years CCD problems (ABF convention) but not about this years Australian bees. So I will not be contacting David about his 2007 import as his bees are not from the supplier I have been documenting since the import started. Lance Sundberg did get around a pallet and a half (approx. 600 packages) from Browns bees so will attempt to contact Lance and see if he has had problems. was reading the "Briefing Paper" CCD & IAPV published by Diana Cox-Foster Dennis VanEnglesdorp Jeff Pettis Published in the ABF (Sept./Oct.) newsletter and see a clear disregard for their recommendations happening around the U.S. as to no. 3 below. The three recommendations (page 7 ABF newsletter) 1. control varroa 2.control nosema 3. do not reuse equipment from dead hives. >From what I see beekeepers are really working to control varroa and fumidil is on back order the demand is so high as beekeepers which have never treated are treating. However I know of zero beekeepers which are *not* reusing the deadout boxes (number 3 recommendation above) but all I have spoke with are reporting the best bees in years. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 08:32:00 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Formic Acid and brood destruction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Formic acid damaged brood has no particulat charasteristics, its just dead. Easiest noticed when bees start to eat large larva / pupa away. Would be found very near the applicator used, not all over the box. Ari Seppälä Finland > what Formic acid damaged > brood looks like. > > Has it any particular characteristics? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 06:45:52 -0400 Reply-To: Rick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Subject: treating with fumidil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe I missed this, has anyone heard about spraying fumidil on the bees to get more bag for the buck. I was told the Canadians are using this method. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 08:46:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: treating with fumidil Comments: To: Rick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Maybe I missed this, has anyone heard about spraying fumidil on the bees to get more bag for the buck. I was told the Canadians are using this method. Part of the beekeeping problems today come from beekeepers not following label. Besides being a waste of money the way you get the most bang for your buck this time of year for winter nosema control is to feed the fumidil in TWO gallons of syrup so the bees winter over the solution. EXACTLY AS TOLD ON THE FUMIDIL LABEL. Not as important in the south but very important going into northern winter. Why when I get calls from my area beekeepers worried sick over the fumidil backorder I say that its really a bit early to feed the solution in the lower Midwest (90F. todays & tomorrow). Relax you have got time yet. As for spraying I might remind the list that the small amount of fumidil sent in syrup with packages has not proven to clear a 4 pound package of nosema (IF they have got a nosema problem in the hive they left). A shelf full of products not applied correctly is a waste of time and money. " Do it once and do it right!" Trying to save money on meds can be expensive.(voice of experience from when I was young and foolish and listened to the so called wiser beekeepers!) Choose your mentors carefully! I have found no other way to clear a hive of severe nosema than fumidil! I get asked a hundred times a year for another solution due to fumidil expense. There are things you can do which many claim help prevent nosema but once nosema is throughout a yard fumidil has proven to be the solution for me. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 10:43:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: Irradiation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:02:57 -0700, William Farler wrote: >Does irradiation (food grade gamma irradiation) of honey kill all spores that may be present in honey? (EFB, AFB, various virus', etc.) I am assuming that you are contemplating irradiating frames with honey rather than honey for human consumption, otherwise James' comments supersede the ones I am about to write. We did a study with electron beam (e-beam) radiation of comb a few years ago with AFB to determine guidelines for W Canadian beekeepers. I understand that e-beam has less penetration for a given kGy dose than electron beam. The study was published in ABJ. We had the operators shoot beams through a stack of 9 empty combs or 9 combs containing either liquid or crystalised honey. While the effective dose (10 kGy) was maintained across all 9 empty combs, the beam decayed to an ineffective dose as soon as it passed through one frame of honey, regardless of whether it was crystalised or liquid. We also embedded vials containing either chalkbrood mummies or AFB scale within frames containing varying amounts of honey and discovered both remained viable if situated on a full frame of honey. This is how we put in the paper: "Beam penetration through limited amounts of honey in comb is important to beekeepers, for frequently a 2 – 10 cm arc of honey crests frames of disease-infected brood. Apiculturists currently recommend frames with honey be extracted prior to irradiation to ensure adequate exposure across the entire frame (Hornitzky 1994). Our preliminary findings suggest that two-sided irradiation of frames containing small amounts of residual honey along the frame tops (< 9 cm) results in the decontamination of A. apis or P. l. larvae located in the nest area below. Whether spores of either organism trapped within honey remain viable following radiation, however, hasn’t been tested. Before guidelines can be established for the irradiation of brood comb containing small amounts of honey, research must determine the extent of decontamination within the honey itself". In absence of the aforementioned "more study" we recommended that any beekeeper irradiating comb with e-beam should cull out all the honey-full frames for rendering and only send forward combs that are fairly free of honey. Other jurisdictions recommend the same thing. It is certainly a lot easier and convenient to turn around deadouts for irradiation without sorting them, particularly in W. Canada where the time between collecting the deadouts and the arrival of packages is tight. These deadouts, however, often have a few outer slabs of honey. I suspect that if the infection were high enough in the deadout, that package would end up being reinfected and the $5/box spent on irradiation, the cost of preparing and shipping the deadouts and the price of the package may be partially or completely all be wasted. We ran dose responses on chalkbrood mummies and AFB scale and found both organisms dead well below the 10kGy dose (no P. larvae growth when irradiated above 6.25 kGy and no A. apis growth at doses above 8 kGy). When I did a literature search on Nosema and irradiation I found no studies specifically with N. apis (which is all we knew about back then), however studies with other Nosema species suggests a 10 kGy dose would be lethal. The inconsistency with Trevor's post may have to due to differences with equipment in Australia and Canada. Adony ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 11:50:52 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Irradiation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...why anyone would want to bother to irradiate honey if the honey was to be eaten by humans ... expensive way to feed bees .... While I agree with the above position... >>... consumers have a very negative reaction to food that has been irradiated even though the process does nothing but good. (Yet another example of the price of a of basic science education.) ...I don't agree that it is conclusive that irradiated food is safe for consumption (www.ccnr.org/food_irradiation.html). The groups pushing for irradiation also have requested that irradiated food be label as pastuarized since the 'process is essentially the same.' As a consumer, my demand is to have every food, processed or otherwise, to be clearly labelled as having been irradiated, containing GMOs, etc. And to have a choice. I don't accept the FDA's position as the absolute truths. They have reversed their positions way too many times. As for science and scientists I respect good science and scientists with integrity (the same goes for medicine and its pratitioners). My wish is that the design of scientific experiments be done more rigorously; good science should be R&R (repeatable and reproduceable). If I, as a non-scientific person, look up scientific studies that tested a particular hypothesis and find 8,000 studies with one conclusion and 2,000 studies with an opposite conclusion which group do I trust? How do I determine which group applied better methodology and controls without repeating their experiments myself? It does not take much to skew a study to lead to one's expected conclusion. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:06:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Irradiation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Also, note that consumers have a very negative reaction >to food that has been irradiated even though the >process does nothing but good. (Yet another example of >the price of a of basic science education.) I'm sure comparable things were said about asbestos fifty years ago (or about above-ground testing of nuclear weapons), and I'm sure skeptics were similarly derided as lacking even basic scientific knowledge. In any case, the "nothing but good" claim is as preposterous as the claim of complete knowledge that it rests on. It may be true that narrowly considered *so far as we can scientifically prove to date* irradiation "does nothing but good," but plenty of things are true that we either haven't tested or haven't been able to prove. (Yet another example of the price of a basic history education.) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 08:44:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: treating with fumidil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick asked: > Maybe I missed this, has anyone heard about spraying fumidil on the bees > to get more bag for the buck. I was told the Canadians are using this > method. There are various anecdotal recommendations going around. Medhat Nasr suggests that some are at far too high a concentration. He recommends using the product about double strength. The label suggests 1:1 syrup, but beekeepers prefer 2:1. The recommended rate is 1 lb (454g) Fumagilin to 45gal heavy syrup. Dribble 4 oz per colony, or up to 8 oz for strong colonies. Repeat after a week. My note: the general strategy for fumigillin is to have bees store it as "honey" above the contracting brood nest in fall, so that they will later eat their way up into it (fumigillin is very stable in solution), and thus dose themselves through the winter. When using the dribble method, you may get a quick kill of the vegetative form, but there will be little left to deal with that which germinates later in the winter/spring. As the bees clean out the broodnest during spring buildup, they ingest spores, and for N apis, the disease peaks in early spring. A fall dribble is unlikely to affect the spring explosion of the disease. Medivet and I are in communication, and they are sending me answers to a list of my questions. I will share. Other beekeepers are reporting nosema control with Honey B Healthy or equivalent (but I don't know if they are actually counting spores). I'm researching the use of thymol or bleach in syrup for nosema control, and will report to the list soon. I'd appreciate any info on either. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 13:09:40 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Claude Hachey Subject: Fumidil B dusting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use open barrel feeding and to medicate with Fumidil B, I plan on dusting. Here is the recipe from a reliable source who would prefer to remain nameless due to liability issues as they are closely associated to production of the product. one bottle 9.5 gram Fumidil B one lb soya flour 13 lbs icing sugar For fall medication...3/4 cup per colony for proper dosage. I use a wax paper roll cut on a chop saw in two inch strips to hold that quantity of mix on the ends of top bars. The soya flour is for preventing clumping. Any concerns with this method?? Claude Hachey New Brunswick, Canada ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 14:17:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: treating with fumidil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 08:44:54 -0700, randy oliver wrote: >There are various anecdotal recommendations going around. Medhat Nasr >suggests that some are at far too high a concentration. He recommends using >the product about double strength. The label suggests 1:1 syrup, but >beekeepers prefer 2:1. The recommended rate is 1 lb (454g) Fumagilin to >45gal heavy syrup. Dribble 4 oz per colony, or up to 8 oz for strong >colonies. Repeat after a week. Just to expand on both Randy and Bob's good posts, the label recommends that one jar Fumagilin-B covers 50 wintering colonies. One jar (454g) contains 9.5 g of fumagillin active. Label dose ~ 190 mg fumagillin active per colony. Following this spray recommendation, the dose per colony is 8oz (0.230 L) x 9.5g fumagillin/170L (45 gal) x 2 weekly treatments = 26mg fumagillin active per colony. Consequently the spray treatment would have to be ~7 times more effective than the syrup treatment to still be effective. While it is possible that this mode of application is more effective I know of no study that supports this claim. A dose roughly twice this spray recommendation (42 mg/colony) was applied in spring sugar dust in a study at Beaverlodge in the 1980s and colonies still maintained infections of about 4 million spores/bee 1 and 3 weeks following treatment. Furthermore, a number of older studies suggest that bulk feeding at 190 mg/colony in the fall is the smallest dose you can get away with before efficacy begins to drop off. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 14:28:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Irradiation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "even though the process (irradiation) does nothing but good." "the "nothing but good" claim is as preposterous as the claim of complete knowledge that it rests on." Lets see some evidence to support these rather charged statements. I ain't takin nothin for granted. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 13:27:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Fumidil B dusting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will give an opinion . >I use open barrel feeding and to medicate with Fumidil B, With open feeding the strongest hives gets the lions share and a weak hive might not get the required amount to control nosema. The only time I see open feeding as valuable is after all other feeding is done and I want to shut down Italians. Feed is expensive (especially now many of us have moved away from HFCS.) In my opinion keeping barrels full uses quite a bit more syrup than only giving the hives needing feed. When shorthanded or time is a concern open feeding is certainly a viable option. In California before almonds one year a beekeeper next to us (we had three semi loads) was open feeding 10 barrels. We had to do little feeding that year! Our bees were always at the neighbors. When you open feed you can end up with back breaking hive bodies filled with syrup in spring in the lower Midwest. May work in Canada but I prefer to feed as needed. 60 pounds stored honey will winter in our area. Open feeding can put 120 - 160 pounds in each hive.If going to almonds in January then stored feed can cost you semi space. I also believe moving hives onto a fall flow is better than feeding or pollen patties and well worth the fuel and labor costs. I feed when needed and only when needed in my area. I feed to stimulate but about 10 pounds over what it takes to winter is plenty for my area for winter. Very rare with a four wheel drive feed truck and as much hose as needed I can't get feed to bees in spring. It is my opinion that the bees come to life quicker in spring with syrup than stored honey. Gets the girls adrenaline pumping! Summer feeding: After a pollination or honey flow a strong colony at maximum strength needs a half gallon a week to keep from shutting down brood production. This may be the most valuable information I ever posted on BEE-L for the commercial beekeeper. Took me years to get the amount correct. > I plan on dusting. >Any concerns with this method? I don't see why dusting would not work but most of us would like to give all meds in syrup AND ALL AT ONCE! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 16:30:42 -0400 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Re: [WL] [BEE-L] Fumidil B dusting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Several years ago, Eric Mussen was a speaker at an Ontario beekeeping = shortcourse. The question about dusting fumagillin came up. Dr. Mussen = stated that this method is ineffective.=20 Bailey in Honey Bee Pathology p.94-95 states "Applying the antibiotic as = a dust or in solid sugar candy is ineffective (Furgala and Gochnauer, = 1969b) [ Am. Bee J. 109, 218-219] Perhaps, there is newer research with another answer? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 13:52:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Baton Rouge Bee Lab Open House In-Reply-To: <001801c8077d$714f7bc0$29bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is anyone from the southwest Alabama, west Florida panhandle going to the Baton Rouge Bee Lab open house on Saturday the 13th? Mike in LA --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:08:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I want to ask the experienced beekeepers on the list for some practical advice related to the thread I've continued above. I'm going to be moving soon, about 25 miles, and I'm going to want to move my bees closer to my new place. My question is, particularly with regards to mites spreading from more to less heavily infested hives, how do I ideally want to locate my hives? I'll be running about 80-150 production hives plus about 50 nuc boxes divided 2 or 4 ways. I'd like to have all my bees within 5 miles of home, certainly no more than 10 miles. I would consider it a nice benefit if I could gain more control over the drones my queens mate with. The way I keep bees I know I'm going to have a percentage of hives with fairly high mite loads that I won't always want to deal with immediately, so there will be potential for mite problems to spread. Insofar as I can find a practical way to do it, should I try to isolate my colonies with heavy mite loads? With other beekeepers (mostly small numbers) and wild nests in the area, will it matter how I locate my hives? The study Peter cited indicated that proximity within a 2 mile radius didn't really matter when it came to mites spreading, but I'm thinking drift might be a bigger issue in larger yards. What do you all think about numbers of hives per yard and distance between yards (especially when it comes to spreading mites)? Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:09:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Irradiation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >"the "nothing but good" claim is as preposterous as the claim of >complete knowledge that it rests on." > >Lets see some evidence Steve, if you're asking for evidence, you missed my point. It's because of all the evidence we *DON'T* have that the "nothing but good" claim is preposterous. As an aside, it should be noted that what evidence we do have is largely limited by (and potentially biased by) financial incentives to fund the research. The financial incentives to "prove the safety" of a new technology (i.e. to not discover any statistically significant dangers) greatly exceed the incentives to prove the uselessness of a new technology. My original point, though, was to defend the reasonableness of maintaining doubts about the safety of irradiation in the absence of complete knowledge (omniscience), especially given the newness of the technology. The scientific process which "proved the safety" of asbestos some fifty years ago is the same scientific process that would offer any evidence of the safety of irradiation today. In the face of unknowns, history is a much better guide than inflated science. Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:09:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Irradiation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As another aside, even if radiation of honey is "harmless," what would the effect on beekeepers be? Pasteurization of milk may (or may not) have made milk safer and healthier for consumers, but I think it's indisputable that pasteurization requirements have played a huge role in eliminating small dairies and consolidating control of the dairy industry in the hands of the processors/bottlers, to the detriment even of the large dairymen. I'm sure a honey radiation requirement would be even worse in terms of putting small beekeepers at a "lethal" competitive disadvantage and leaving larger beekeepers even more at the mercy of a small number of honey packers. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 15:25:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Fumidil B dusting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: > Summer feeding: > After a pollination or honey flow a strong colony at maximum strength > needs > a half gallon a week to keep from shutting down brood production. This may > be the most valuable information I ever posted on BEE-L for the commercial > beekeeper. Took me years to get the amount correct. Just want to let you know that I sent an article off to ABJ last week with exactly the same figure (that I arrived at independently). I shoulda searched the archives! Anyway, great when I stick my neck out to find that the old master is in concurrence. : ) Thanks, Bob! Randy ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:40:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: [WL] [BEE-L] Fumidil B dusting Comments: To: "Keith B. Forsyth" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Bailey in Honey Bee Pathology p.94-95 states "Applying the antibiotic as a dust or in solid sugar candy is ineffective (Furgala and Gochnauer, 1969b) [ Am. Bee J. 109, 218-219] Not sure about solid sugar candy due to the temp etc. but as far as dusting go dusting IS the recommended way most antibiotics are recommended used. Tylosin is best dusted. I have a hard time believing fumidil would be ineffective by dusting unless the fumidil is too grainy. In a real fine powder I would think fumidil mixed with powdered sugar would be effective but I am only a beekeeper. What do the researchers on the list say? Dusting has *long* been the recommended method of delivery of antibiotics to honey bees. Beekeepers keep trying to put the antibiotics in syrup. Putting antibiotics in syrup is similar to us taking all our bottle of antibiotics the first day instead over a period of days. By three correctly timed dustings the bees are exposed to the antibiotic for a period of time. Surely fumidil is intended to be used by the bees for a period of time or you would simply dump the fumidil in a single gallon instead of the recommended two gallons. I am not sure *ineffective* is the right word to describe fumidil dusting and maybe saying dusting is not the best way to use the product would have been better. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 01:20:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] treating with fumidil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by Medhat.Nasr@GOV.AB.CA to = the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of = previously posted material. ________________________________ From: Medhat Nasr [mailto:Medhat.Nasr@gov.ab.ca] Sent: Fri 2007.10.05 22:11 To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Subject: Re: [BEE-L] treating with fumidil Randy said: There are various anecdotal recommendations going around. Medhat Nasr suggests that some are at far too high a concentration. He recommends using the product about double strength. The label suggests 1:1 syrup, but beekeepers prefer 2:1. The recommended rate is 1 lb (454g) Fumagilin to 45gal heavy syrup. Dribble 4 oz per colony, or up to 8 oz for strong colonies. Repeat after a week. I would like clarify the above statement. I did not recommend any of the above. A commercial beekeeper from the US inquired about a recipe used in Canada. I tried to find any scientific root for the recipe. I found = his recommendation is completely far from any recommendations on any label = in Canada, The only close recommendation that mentioned spraying of fumagillin was on the Medivet label. Therefore, I faxed the label to the US commercial beekeeper including information provided by an Albertan beekeeper who used this method. The recommendation on the label states the following "Heavily infested colonies that will no longer take syrup may be sprayed repeatedly, directly onto the bees, Frame by Frame with = 1:1 sugar syrup (one part sugar to one part water) contain 2 g of fumagillin/liter of syrup." In fact my question to the few beekeepers who are using the above = method, was "How much do you apply each time? The answer was Hummm It is a good question. Then, I got the answer Oh well 2- 4,... oz....and it depends = on the colony size......, etc. I would also like to add the above recommendation mentioned "may be sprayed repeatedly". Question till WHEN??????. If I was the reviewer of this label I would absolutely question that statement and remove it from the label. In fact, my general recommendation is that is the recommendation on the label for fall treatment. Feed 2 gallons of (2:1) (sugar: water). The fumagillin concentration is one bottle of 454 g / 95 gallon of syrup). This comes to about 190 mg/hive of two brood chamber. If the bees = required further treatment in the spring, Please follow the label for spring treatment. The fumagillin mixed in sugar syrup recommendation was = tested against mixing fumagillin with powder sugar, or patties, but the = efficacy was always significantly higher when bees fed fumagillin in sugar syrup. Do we need to test other effective means to apply fumagillin and update the label, I would say YES, YES. Simply, When Alberta beekeepers tried = to feed their bees with fumagillin medicated sugar syrup last fall, the = bees did not take down the feed because of no room. Hives were jammed with honey. As a result, treatment failed and higher percentages of colonies died from Nosema. This is an example to show a draw back on relying on this method for feeding bees. I understand that some beekeepers like to find an easy and inexpensive = way to control Nosema. Unfortunately, so far, there is no easy quick fix for nosema. Here it comes all of anecdotal recommendations with no follow up and no spore counts.Unless the method is tested I would suggest to = refrain from wasting your money. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 17:45:42 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: [WL] [BEE-L] Fumidil B dusting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Not sure about solid sugar candy due to the temp etc. but as far as > dusting > go dusting IS the recommended way most antibiotics are recommended used. > Tylosin is best dusted. As I recall Tibor Szabo did some work when he was at Beaverlodge on dusting with fumagillin. Does anyone else recall this or is my memory in need of a good defrag? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 02:47:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Study: Antibiotics Showed Less Antibacterial Activity Than Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Study: Antibiotics Showed Less Antibacterial Activity Than Honey In Vitro Anti-Staphylococcal Activity of Honey and Two Standard Antibiotics (Cloxacillin And Ampicillin) Annals of Burns and Fire Disasters - vol. XX - n. 1 - March 2007 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/10/study-antibiotics-showed-less.html …Cloxacillin recorded higher antibacterial activity than ampicillin but both exerted less antibacterial activity than honey. The therapeutic application of honey, following clinical trials, should be of relevance in treating bacterial infections and, in particular, those due to the two Staphylococcus species tested. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 08:35:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Irradiation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Brown wrote: > The scientific process which "proved the safety" of asbestos some fifty > years ago is the same scientific process that would offer any evidence of > the safety of irradiation today. In the face of unknowns, history is a > much better guide than inflated science. Actually, scientific evidence does show that asbestos is not the problem. There are villages in Turkey built with high asbestos concentrated clay and no problems. However, add smoking to the mix and you will have major lung problems. But add smoking to just about any air borne particle mix and you have problems. But you have problems with smoking alone. The death rate for those who came in contact with asbestos and who smoke is slightly higher than those who only smoked. Asbestos has the bad rap because of junk science and friendly juries. Look at the same results with breast implants. Bad science, litigation and bad results. Nothing new here. I do have some trouble seeing just what irradiation does to food to make it unsafe. If we want un-irradiated food we better change Earth's atmosphere to lead. Better yet, let's sue the sun. BTW, I worked in shipyards back when there was no requirement for face masks while asbestos pipes were ripped out and dust was all over. No lung problems, but I do not smoke. A friend does have breathing problems but they smoked and never came close to asbestos. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 09:07:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Nosema Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit wrote: >When you find your nosema spores, as you surely will, what, in New Zealand, >are you going to do about it? I am presuming (without knowing) that >antibiotics are not used by beekeepers in NZ. <> Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feralbeeproject.com http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 12:17:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Asbestos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, You are wrong about junk science and friendly juries. Asbestos causes cancer. Tell those who have lost loved ones from mesothelioma. It is just like thorns in side the lungs. Lungs become as hard as concrete. Breathing becomes impossible. Lionel North Alabama ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 18:01:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: treating with fumidil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whether you treat with fumidil or not, you should still put your bees onto clean (fumigated with acetic acid fumes for example) comb in the spring as fumidil will do nothing to prevent reinfection from soiled comb. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 18:23:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Irradiation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Irradiation of combs might well severely reduce the reproductive capacity of many miniature organisms sat thereon. What does irradiation do to honey, especially the more subtle parts such as enzymes or "UMF" ? Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 18:34:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Invasion of Varroa mites into mite-free colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you go for the larger radius that gives you about 60 square miles to play with. My inclination would be to have a larger number of small apiaries - at least it gives the back a rest between apiaries. Your bees will be in competition with those already in the area. You don't say what the area is like for forage throughout the season. If you have more hives than there is natural forage, your bees will be stressed with all the attendant problems, and you will have to resort to artificial feeding which brings more work and expense and the risk of contamination of next year's crop. I suggest you read Bailey on the optimum number of hives kept in an area. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 18:48:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Nosema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/10/2007 14:11:42 GMT Standard Time, naturebee@YAHOO.COM writes: <> Can you suggest which particular genetically inheritable characteristics might make a strain of honeybee less susceptible to nosema? Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 19:54:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: [WL] [BEE-L] Fumidil B dusting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 6 Oct 2007 17:45:42 +1000, queenbee wrote: >As I recall Tibor Szabo did some work when he was at Beaverlodge on dusting >with fumagillin. Does anyone else recall this or is my memory in need of a >good defrag? NOTE: Most of this is scavenged from an article I wrote (one of my better ones)... the dusting is addressed right off the bat... Nothing wrong with your hard drive Trevor. Oddly in the March 1987 issue of American Bee Journal two articles appeared regarding the efficacy of feeding fumagillin in a dusting powder in the spring. One study was conducted in British Columbia’s mild Lower Mainland (Wyborn and McCutcheon) and the other was the one you remembered from Beaverlodge, Alberta (Szabo and Heikel). In both studies colonies were medicated with 200 mg of fumagillin in syrup the previous fall (slightly above the label rate on Fumagilin-B) and, yet, nosema had become detectable by the spring. Colonies were evaluated for nosema levels in the beginning of March and in Langley each bee had approximately 360,000 spores and in Beaverlodge the count was 15 million. The colonies in Langley were either left untreated or treated with a total of 300 mg fumagillin applied weekly over three weeks, beginning on March 14th. The same dose of fumagillin was either applied in powdered sugar or in syrup. The nosema levels among untreated colonies shot up and by April 12th levels had reached 1.6 million spores per bee, a four-fold increase. By contrast, both methods of administering fumagillin, either in syrup or dust, resulted in nosema levels below 100,000 spores per bee. Clearly, dust was as effective as syrup. The research in Beaverlodge came to a similar conclusion. Their experiment involved either leaving colonies untreated or treating them with a total of 58.8 mg of fumagillin in powdered sugar applied on April 4th and April 14th. Three weeks after the second treatment, treated colonies had 4.5 times fewer spores per bee. Although fewer spores were found the treated colonies were left with a fairly high number of spores (4.8 million). It is important to remember, however, the dose used in the Beaverlodge study was five times lower than the study in Langley and initial nosema level in Beaverlodge 40 times higher. As the authors of the Beaverlodge study speculated “perhaps an application of 100 mg fumagillin in icing sugar during early spring would eliminate Nosema disease”. Think, however, what it would cost to treat with 200 mg in the fall and 200 mg in the spring? It would mean ~$2.50 per colony per treatment, thus ~$5.00 per colony. Whew. That's a lot. Springtime management would be easier to direct if it was possible to know which bee yards had nosema. Unfortunately, sensitive detection of nosema is only possible by looking for the microscopic spores from crushed bee guts. Not guts exactly, but specifically the part of the gut to the rear of the honey sac called the ventriculus (to the rear of the honey sac, but in front of the big brown rectum). Although the white soft and swollen ventriculus of infected bees is easily distinguished from the straw brown color of healthy bees, this symptom is not reliable unless bees are heavily infected - I have run cages of bees inoculated with nosema and often bees with seemingly normal guts are full of nosema. Microscopic analysis is essential. Where should be samples be taken from a colony and what do they mean? Swedish research by Ingemar Fries and his colleagues sheds some light on these two questions. Their research involved careful analysis of bee samples collected from several dozen colonies in the early spring followed by measurements of the total summer honey crop. The research tied summer honey production to spring nosema levels to determine what level of nosema would reduce beekeeper honey revenues. Each colony had samples of 60 bees taken from either the bottom board (dead) or from the cluster (live). The live bees were then analysed for the number of infected bees in the sample OR the number of spores in a pooled sample of bees. The important results of the research were that: 1) live adult bees taken from the cluster are more predictive of than dead bees from the bottom board and 2) the number of infected bees in a sample is more predictive than the total number of spores in a composite sample. The researchers determined that summer honey yield was reduced by half if pooled samples had approximately 15 million spores per bee or 48% of the bees in the sample had nosema. Clearly the prospect of testing each of your colonies for nosema is daunting, and probably not economically viable. Nonetheless, the finding leaves the door open for new research to evaluate different schemes to sample of a more realistic management unit, perhaps a bee yard, to determine if treatment is necessary. Spring comb replacement is another area which appears to hold promise for managing nosema. Dr. Fries investigated the benefit of replacing all brood comb with foundation early each summer for five consecutive years. Each May the levels of spores in a group of unmanipulated colonies was compared to colonies in which the brood comb was replaced. Over the five years, comb replacement resulted in a 30% drop in the number of colonies with detectable nosema levels each spring. The replacement of comb did not influence honey yield and the five year average production was 173 pounds. I do not expect many beekeepers will go out and replace their entire inventory of brood comb this spring, however the study is useful in pointing out the importance of implementing routine brood comb replacement. Furthermore, irradiation and fumigation with 60% acetic acid have been shown to kill nosema spores on unoccupied comb and both techniques may help reduce carried over infection. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:20:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: Nosema Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 6 Oct 2007 18:48:54 EDT, Chris Slade wrote: >Can you suggest which particular genetically inheritable characteristics >might make a strain of honeybee less susceptible to nosema? There have been a number of studies on this issue, most of the work was done in New Zealand on caged bees from colonies of different racial types. The NZ work suggests that differences in bee longveity in cages differs by race, but the relative decline in longevity when bees are infected with nosema is the same among races - suggesting there is no basis for breeding. They tested an older hypothesis that the levels of the enzyme chymosin were higher among bees that had high longevity despite being infected, but could not find enough evidence to support it. Rinderer, Collins and Brown determined that heritable variation in bee longevity was strongly correlated to increased longevity in the presence of N. apis. In the Louisiana population they were making their estimates from heritability for longevity was estimated to be 0.32, which I understand to mean that 32% of the variation they observed in longevity was additively genetic - if an estimate was 1.0 (it never is) then every time you select a good breeder, all its progeny will express the same good qualities. They concluded that "these data suggest longevity would respond to selection and that correlated responses... to N. apis would probably be favorable". ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:34:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: Irradiation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 6 Oct 2007 18:23:41 EDT, Chris Slade wrote: > > What does irradiation do to honey, especially the more subtle parts such as >enzymes or "UMF" ? The thing is Chris... your suppose to AVOID irradiating honey on comb because it reduces the penetration of the beam, thus weakening beam strength, resulting in the poor clean up of bee pathogens. I know of no instance of anyone irradiating honey for human consumption - why spend money on something you don't need to do - it is not like steaks which can harbor O157:H7 E. coli or mangos from Hawaii that might contain pests like fruit flies. This is a NON ISSUE. The only use of irradiation is for comb and bee-feed pollen for AFB and other diseases... and in this context you should not be sending combs full of honey or else you would be defeating the purpose of the exercise. A ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:34:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leif Woodman Subject: Re: Irradiation In-Reply-To: <001d01c806f0$99371220$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I work with gamma radiation on a daily basis. Because it is a wave similar to light there is no such thing as "food grade". Also, because it is free to me I routinely irradiate my equipment. In the spring I irradiate my supers before putting them ion the hives. When I did get SFB I burned the frames and then irradiated the boxes because I did not want to have the AFB mess still in the frames, and it made the NYS inspector happy. When I irradiate my equipment use a Cobalt 60 source for the radiation, it has the best penetrating power of all of the sources we have, and place a dosimeter on the opposite side of the equipment from the radiation source to measure the amount of radiation is received through the equipment. I irradiate the equipment until at least 5 rem (roentgen equivalent man) has been received. I wont do boxes that have honey in the frames because the honey will reduce the amount of radiation that will pass through it. As far as honey being edible after being irradiated, there are times when people will leave there lunch near where we are using the radioactive materials and they will come up to us and tell us about there lunch being in the area and ask us if it is ok to eat. We then notify them that we will have to confiscate there lunch and dispose of it properly, we are nice enough to give them back there lunch bucket after we have disposed of there lunch, we just hope that they left a good lunch for us to eat. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 21:14:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: treating with fumidil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to Adony for the information on fumidil dusting! Chris said: >Whether you treat with fumidil or not, you should still put your bees onto clean (fumigated with acetic acid fumes for example) comb in the spring as fumidil will do nothing to prevent reinfection from soiled comb. Actually most old commercial comb *in my opinion* has nosema contamination to some degree. Checking spore load and spring & fall treatment will control nosema but if a treatment is skipped or for whatever reason is not effective then you have got problems. Many hobby beekeepers will cringe at what I am about to say but it is what it is. Chris makes an excellent point but fumigation is not normally done by commercial U.S. beekeepers but many will burn severely contaminated comb. Time is money and I have seen bon fires many feet high of comb burned by beekeepers which do not considered fumigating worth the time. Also many of the largest outfits believe in never letting nosema contamination get a start. From the time equipment is put in service nosema is controlled. Treat spring & fall. If an outfit does not treat for nosema for years and then is wiped out ( happened to Richard Taylor from Bee Culture and Richard detailed his problem in several articles) then because of the comb contamination the outfit will always be fighting nosema problems (which usually shows itself with poor honey yields even if no outward signs are visible.) Its really hard to keep healthy bees on comb which has a high level of nosema contamination. Also comb from a hive which has crashed from varroa leaving signs of parasitic mite syndrome (virus contamination). My research has shown when varroa control drops hives with virus contamination from the former hive deadout will show virus symptoms first. Interesting virus point: The U.S.( USDA-ARS ) not long ago said it had no KBV. Denis Anderson came and checked and KBV was in every place he checked. Denis said at the meeting last month in Australia he thought IABV could simply be a variation of KBV. Also from page 4 of the current ABF newsletter: " Likewise, Kashmire Bee Virus (KBV) was found in all CCD samples (100%) and in 81% of the healthy samples tested." I think the above points to the fact these virus capable of killing hives exist in most U.S. hives. We know KBV is a killer of hives ( ask the Canadians!) If the CCD researchers consider hives with KBV healthy then why the concern over apparently healthy hives testing positive for IAPV? bottom line: Control varroa and virus is a non issue. The only exception would be a strain of bee like the Russian be which it seems is not effected by virus despite fairly high varroa loads. I have seen Russian hives crash from varroa and show PMS but not the norm. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:04:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Irradiation o honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric Brown wrote: As another aside, even if radiation of honey is "harmless," what would the effect on beekeepers be? I could be wrong, but I don't think there will ever be a requirement of all honey sold to the public be irradiated. "Raw" honey has been on the market so long, without any discernible or pr oven detrimental effects that I don't think irradiation will ever be a requirement in order to sell to the public. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 08:59:49 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Nosema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Can you suggest which particular genetically inheritable = Hi Chris=0A=0A> Can you suggest which particular genetically inheritable=0A= > characteristics might make a strain of honeybee less=0A> susceptible to n= osema?=0A=0ALogic might suggest that the ability and inclination to fly in = poor weather would help. Perhaps even, given the etiology of the disease, = a large rectum and powerful sphincters!=0A=0AExperience dictates that there= will be useful genetic variation amongst bees for tolerance of the Nosema = species, and that predicting the traits in advance that are responsible for= any resistance will be difficult.=0A=0Aall the best=0A=0AGavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 00:10:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=3D=3FISO-8859-1=3FQ=3FIan=3F=3D?= Subject: Re: US and Canada and CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I just spent some time in Canada. I was surprised to see petrol at $US 1 a liter. We are mightly complaining about prices of $US .70 a liter. 43% higher in Canada! What would our pollination industry look like with petrol prices 43% higher? For what its worth, We pay ALOT of tax per liter of fuel. But the farmers are cut a break on alot of that tax. Last drop I paid .73 cent dyed diesel, and 88 cent dyed gas. Its getting harder to penceil the fuel bill every year. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 01:21:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?John_Sheridan?= Subject: Woodenware treatment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In treating woodenware with Copper Naptheate mixed with mineral spirits are there any negitive side effects to the bees or pollen/ honey? Also what other treatments are there to protect woodenware ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 05:23:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Nosema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/10/2007 10:10:23 GMT Standard Time, melathopoulos@YAHOO.CA writes: Rinderer, Collins and Brown determined that heritable variation in bee longevity was strongly correlated to increased longevity in the presence of N. apis. Interesting. Amm is considered by some to have relative longevity. Does Dave C have any figures on this? Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 11:04:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: US and Canada and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We pay ALOT of tax per liter of fuel. Oh no you don't! Diesel in the UK would now cost you just over $2! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 03:31:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Royal Jelly Contains Complex Steroidal Composition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Royal Jelly Contains Complex Steroidal Composition Compositions of Royal Jelly II. Organic Acid Glycosides and Sterols of the Royal Jelly of Honeybees (Apis mellifera) Chem. Pharm. Bull. 55(10) 1528-1531 (10/1/2007) http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/10/royal-jelly-contains-complex-steroidal.html Royal jelly is a secretion from the hypopharyngeal and mandibular glands of worker bees, and it is the exclusive food of the queen bee for the entire span of both her larval and adult lives...This study showed that royal jelly contains a very complex steroidal composition… ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 10:51:34 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Was: US and Canada, Now: Fuel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > We are mightly complaining about prices of $US .70 a liter. = Hi All=0A=0A> We are mightly complaining about prices of $US .70 a liter. = =0A> 43% higher in Canada! What would our pollination industry=0A> look li= ke with petrol prices 43% higher? =0A=0AI wonder how sustainable the US po= llination industry would be with UK fuel prices? Our average at-the-pump p= rice is 97.3p per litre for unleaded petrol. At today's exchange rate that= 's 198.7 cents (US Dollar cents) per litre, in other words 2.84 times the p= rice over your side of the pond.=0A=0A> We pay ALOT of tax per liter of fue= l. =0A> But the farmers are cut a break on alot of that tax. =0A> Last dr= op I paid .73 cent dyed diesel, and 88 cent dyed gas.=0A=0AFor us, domestic= customers pay 98.3p per litre of diesel. Farmers get a tax break on that,= which I believe may roughly half the cost. Not sure whether or not commer= cial beekeepers benefit from red diesel.=0A=0AFWIW, high taxation of transp= ort fuel is, in my eyes, one essential step towards making the planet susta= inable, despite the damage to individuals and businesses. I see that Wal-M= art is starting to look at the carbon footprint of some of the products it = sells, so these global sustainability issues may impact on beekeeping in ne= w ways.=0A=0Aall the best=0A=0AGavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 10:56:59 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Nosema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Interesting. Amm is considered by some to have rel= Hi Chris and All=0A=0A> Interesting. Amm is considered by some to have rel= ative longevity. =0A> Does Dave C have any figures on this?=0A=0AAlso, bear= in mind that the NZ study Adony mentioned compared races of individual bee= s in cages and found no difference in the effect of dosing with Nosema. Le= t colonies fly and things will be different. Amm is likely to fly in poore= r conditions than other races and so deposit the spore load away from the c= olony.=0A=0Aall the best=0A=0AGavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 07:41:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Asbestos In-Reply-To: <001601c8083c$d2375240$8a3f4945@bige953ca8f8be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lionel Evans wrote: > You are wrong about junk science and friendly juries. > Asbestos causes cancer. Tell those who have lost loved ones from > mesothelioma. My point was and is that it is extremely rare, not that it does not exist. As someone who currently has no detectable cancer, I have nothing but sympathy for anyone who has to go through that valley. Mine is not that rare. The lawsuits and awards were more because of smoking than asbestos even though asbestos was blamed by juries. That was and is junk science. As I noted, there are a lot of things that we inhale that cause problems, just smoking moves them from rare to common. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:10:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Nosema In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris > Interesting. Amm is considered by some to have relative longevity. Does > Dave C have any figures on this? Not any figures on longevity as such, but I can say that in AMM, the purer the specimen the longer life tends to be. As regards Nosema, I think the shortening of life is proportionate whatever the race. But as regards ability to handle nosema the best point is raised by Gavin... > ability and inclination to fly in poor weather would help. This would discriminate in favour of AMM compared to most other races and Italian strains in particular. Not withstanding that AMM may survive Nosema more easily, I prefer to let those few colonies that suffer with it die, rather than propagate the disease by use of antibiotics. The Beowulf Cooper document that was mentioned on the Irish list recently has a paragraph on Nosema and springs to mind as appropriate... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/winter_losses.html Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:04:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Irradiation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric Brown writes: “ Steve, if you're asking for evidence, you missed my point. It's because of all the evidence we *DON'T* have that the "nothing but good" claim is preposterous.” Eric, I think the reason I may have missed your point was because I was thinking more of irradiation as it applies to getting rid of persistent diseases on used equipment, and not as it applies to irradiation of honey for consumption by humans. As has been pointed out on this thread, the latter would be unnecessary, and in any case I don’t think that was what Jim Fischer was referring to in his post. “As an aside, it should be noted that what evidence we do have is largely limited by (and potentially biased by) financial incentives to fund the research.” I agree it is wise to be skeptical of studies that are done by non independent parties, but financial incentives can include fear of getting a class action suit against you if it is shown that you did not perform due diligence before introducing a product that could harm consumers. I don’t think you can automatically throw out studies of this kind, but they can and should be subjected to the highest level of peer review that good science demands. “the reasonableness of maintaining doubts about the safety of irradiation in the absence of complete knowledge (omniscience), especially given the newness of the technology.” Maintaining a healthy degree of skepticism is always a good idea in anything where “omniscience” is lacking. However since complete certainty is seldom the case in anything (at least for me), rejecting or even calling into question, something that is new and presumably exists because of some potential benefit that it might offer, should require at least some evidence or basis for hypothesizing that it could be harmful under the prescribed conditions. All I am saying is it would be nice to know if there are substantiated reasons to think either that a technology under discussion is potentially harmful or that it is absolutely 100% beneficial. Stating that because asbestos turned out to be harmful, we should be suspicious of irradiation doesn’t get it for me, nor do I take it for granted that because Jim Fischer, a very knowledgeable guy, said it is nothing but beneficial, it must be so. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 18:34:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Nosema Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris Slade wrote: >Can you suggest which particular genetically inheritable characteristics >might make a strain of honeybee less susceptible to nosema? Hello Chris, Besides the previously mentioned and most excellent responses to this question. IMO, there is a simple technique anyone can employ. And that is ’breed from your (overall) best stock’. Has proved to be a remarkably effective technique for thousands of years. For several years now I have been employing methods promoted on this list and others to select a higher varroa resistance. Strangely enough, hundreds of pin pricks, mite counts and other techniques later, I find varroa resistance correlated directly with my best performers. Simply by selecting from the top 10 % overall performers, would have been effectively selected for high varroa resistance. As a result, I am placing much more weight on selection for over all performance and much less weight on time consuming testing and counting techniques. Best Wishes, Joe ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************