From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:01:39 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.3 required=2.4 tests=AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C5B490A3 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFhrqG016524 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0710C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 164926 Lines: 3766 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:30:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Italianizing, Part I In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter You quoted... > these blacks with about one band to show trace of Italian blood are > the wickedest bees to sting that can well be imagined, being very > much more vindictive than either race in its purity It does not matter which way round the impurity arrives, it has the same result. Wrapped up in the quote is an important point, that any race, whatever it may be, in a pure and stable state tends to be docile. > they also have a very disagreeable way of tumbling off the combs in > a perfectly demoralized state whenever the hive is opened There are degrees of this behaviour that we rate separately these days... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/running.html http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/jumping.html http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/cwc.html Of these we only accept cool air clustering as typical of AMM and select heavily against running and jumping. > making a general uproar when they are compelled by smoke to be decent. Smoke is hardly needed with good examples of AMM and indeed if you use it you may upset them rather than calm them. There was a paragraph about wax moth and rather than quote it, I should just say I believe Italians may have an edge over AMM in waxmoth resistance, because I think this is to do with sheer numbers of bees in the box rather than the race of bee. Continuing to part II > They possess longer tongues and so can gather from > flowers which are useless to the black bee. This is true in the simplistic sense, but the tongue of AMM is able to gain nectar from an adequate number of sources otherwise they too would have developed a longer tongue, they have had more evolutionary years to adapt so if it were an important selection pressure it would have occurred. > They are more active and with the same opportunities > will collect a good deal more honey. This I find very difficult to understand, simple observation at the hive entrance (an enjoyable chore at any time) will refute that statement. > They work earlier and later. This is not only true of the > day but of the season. Again untrue and by a very large margin, so much so that we can use it for discrimination in matings, leaving our AMM queen raising later so that no Italians are flying. > They are far better to protect their hives against robbers. > Robbers that attempt to plunder Italians of their hard > earned stores Probably correct, but because they are inveterate robbers themselves, this is another point that diminishes in any race with an increase in purity. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:42:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited In-Reply-To: <000b01c80ecd$b9581060$08bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob > Both batches were exactly like Brother Adam > described in his writings. Perhaps Bro Adam had not seen the right examples, a lot of people in UK believe his writings, I have never understood why he reached the conclusions that he did, because I have never seen any of what he complained about. I have however seen most of what he did not like in Italian/AMM hybrids. Perhaps if he had the measuring tools that are becoming more commonly used, he may have discovered that what he was complaining about were not AMM in the first place, but we will never know that now either way. > The Italians I work today and replaced the A.mm with I can > work with open pants legs and only a smoker. The reverse is true in UK and is one reason why bee suits have become progressively more strong in their degree of protection. > Keeping a few hives of A.mm around for conversation pieces might be OK How convinced are you that what you have is actually AMM, have you kept records and done morphometry on them ? > in almonds showing the Australian bees flying to almonds in RAIN (while > several of our best Italian lines huddled at the entrance). > Flew and hour earlier and an hour later than our U.S. italians. The characters you describe here are more typical of AMM than Italian, certainly as far as UK conditions are concerned the Italians are the last to fly and the first to give up for the day. > Little has changed since the year I was on the Irish Beekeeping list I can > see! I still hear the roar of the members when I voiced my opinion on A.mm > and also my never ending support of the work of Brother Adam! I agree with > his methods completely and used Buckfast bees for years till the quality of > my Buckfast queens went south. We will "agree to disagree", I may be seen as bigoted or even fanatic by some, but I hope I do not roar, 35 years ago I held the same opinions as you yourself currently do (and many other US beeks do), but as I learned more and actually tested out what was written in the books I have changed my opinions to those you hear on this list today, however I have done it under UK conditions not US ones. If I can encourage others to check things for themselves, then I expect there will be a few that will also change their opinions, because evidence is better than any degree of conjecture. I consider it a pity that Bro. Adam did not put his attention to cleaning up AMM from the hybridisation that had already occurred, he was a great beekeeper, I think his talents were wasted in following the path that he took. But because he was well known and a dogmatic proponent of his method his statements made a disproportionate and damaging impact on beekeeping in UK. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 03:04:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 14/10/2007 22:28:52 GMT Standard Time, steverose@TISCALI.CO.UK writes: > The other reason is that Italian bees were chosen on the false premise > that 'more bees make more honey' and Italian bees are noted for their > inappropriate over production of brood. Another problem in the UK climate is that Italians and their hybrids tend to mate poorly or not at all in bad summers, which we get regularly. Native bees, on the other hand, will fly to mate at lower temperatures, will raise queens later in the season, and often use apiary vicinity mating, with short mating flights which take advantage of short breaks in the weather. They often keep several queens, which may well be an adaptation to situations where mating may have been poor due to bad weather. Italians were pushed a lot in the early part of the 20th Century, when it was being claimed that Amm had become locally extinct due to Isle of Wight Disease. When I look at old books, though, there is at least some evidence that some Amm strains were prolific and expanded quickly in spring. These would surely have been entirely suitable for modern commercial beekeeping; I wonder what happened to them? It may be unfortunate that the surviving strains tend to be the heather bee type, expanding more slowly, and with smaller colonies. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:37:19 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited In-Reply-To: <471288C6.5080909@tiscali.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 10/14/07, Steve Rose wrote: > > According to Beowulf Cooper and Wedmore (although I have not come across > the point in the only Wedmore book I have) AMM adult workers typically live > for 2 or 3 > weeks longer than Italians. This, in effect, about doubles their > foraging life. ............... All this results in a greater proportion > of > the nectar collected being converted to surplus honey. I have been reading this line about Amm bees with interest for the past few weeks and was not going to comment as we have all heard these stories of super Amm bees for years, I as a UK beekeeper have yet to find a Amm type of bee that has does not have at least three of the following traits: aggressiveness, high propensity to swarm, collects excessive propolis, slow build up and small honey crops. I have experienced Amm or near Amm bees from County Durham, New Forest, Shropshire Cornwall and Kent. None of these have proved suitable for even my small scale beekeeping (around 100 colonies) The story that Amm has a longer life than other sub species has no scientific evidence behind it, just the word of a enthusiastic amateur Mr B Cooper. Even back in 1940'sR.O.B. Manley proclaimed the Italian as the only bee suitable for commercial beekeeping The only areas that Amm beats pure import Italians is how they winter in the UK, but this is not a problem with the first cross. And areas such as Scotland where the main flow is Heather, then Amm is the bee that can cope with the conditions The Italian bee and hybrids produce bees and as Bob says bees make honey. Regards Phil ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 07:53:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Italianizing, Part I Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave wrote: > > They work earlier and later. This is not only true of the day but of the season. > untrue and by a very large margin, so much so that we can use it for discrimination in matings, leaving our AMM queen raising later so that no Italians are flying. Hi Dave Please bear in mind that I am quoting sources from 120+ years ago, so they were comparing the strains of Italians available to them with strains of Black bees that had been in the New World for some time. Not exactly the same thing as Italian bees now vs. Black bees now. My chief point is that *I doubt that* the Americans would have mounted a huge effort to replace the entire population of honey bees in the New World were it not for their perception that the Italian was a *much better bee*. That's all. I wasn't there, so I don't know. Pete ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 05:39:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Beebread in Apitherapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Beebread in Apitherapy By Priscilla Coe, Journal of the American Apitherapy Society, Volume 14, Number 3, September 2007 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/10/beebread-in-apitherapy.html Beebread is an extremely nourishing tonic made of pollen and honey that roughly simulates the beebread made by honeybees in the hive. Its high lactic acid content supports healthy digestion, which is a foundation of good health. The lactic acid also can be converted to glucose in the body, glucose being the main source of energy used throughout the body… ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:01:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Italianizing, Part I In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter > Please bear in mind that I am quoting sources from 120+ years ago, I appreciate that, but many people see such things 'in print' and then accept them as 'gospel'. > My chief point is that *I doubt that* the Americans would have mounted a > huge effort to replace the entire population of honey bees in the New World > were it not for their perception that the Italian was a *much better bee*. > That's all. I wasn't there, so I don't know. Likewise I was not there, but I do wonder how much the change was influenced by a few 'well known' and possibly over persuasive individuals that were revered at the time. There is a lot of rhetoric about bee races, but when all comes to all, very few can point to an apiary of bees (yard) and backup their claim that they are of some race or another with any certainty or evidential proof. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:11:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Queen II and Queen Longevity In-Reply-To: <002401c80c4e$9fef9480$1a37643b@new1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:35 PM 10/11/2007, you wrote: >>I have heard comments about II queens not being as long lived as free flight mated queens in the hives, and other comments dismissing this allegation. >Sue Cobey gave a good paper at Apimondia 2007 on this subject. Basically what Sue said was that there was no real difference. I just got a copy of the paper from Sue and read it over the weekend. In short there there are many subtle differences, but at the end of the day, if the queens are treated well pre and post insemination, II queens can be equal to and sometimes superior to (likely due to genetics), open mated queens. It's really a good summary of many of the other studies on the topic and a worthwhile read I think if you are serious about producing good queens with II. -Tim ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:55:34 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Rose Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited In-Reply-To: <5623fafd0710150137q575c1d9foa4e44526964c8e88@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phil Moore wrote: > The story that Amm has a longer life than other sub species has no > scientific evidence behind it, just the word of a enthusiastic amateur Mr B > Cooper. > I think you will find that Beowulf Cooper was a professional entomologist working for the Government's Agricultural Advisory Service. Steve Rose ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:12:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited In-Reply-To: <47137156.4010701@tiscali.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think you will find that Beowulf Cooper was a professional > entomologist working for the Government's Agricultural Advisory Service. > > Steve But where is the experimental evidence that Amm live longer? Phil ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:52:47 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave Cushman wrote :<< think his talents were wasted in following the = path that he took. But because he was well known and a dogmatic = proponent of=20 his method his statements made a disproportionate and damaging impact on = beekeeping in UK.>> I have to disagree totally with this outrageous statement. Maybe Bro = Adam realised that AMM had its faults and limitations and that these = could only be corrected by crossing and selecting until the breeder = reached his goal. Why do you think he travelled tens of thousands of = kilometers in his search for bees that he could put to good use in his = breeding work. He underwent many hardships in his quest and as a monk = wasn't on any sort of ego trip when he could have been safely in his = cell at Buckfast praying to God. I cannot imagine why you regard this work as damaging to beekeeping in = the UK. The result is that many beekeepers now enjoy the fruits of his = labours in that they have colonies of bees that are excellent producers, = are easy to manage and need a minimum of input from the beekeeper. The main reason for aggressiveness in the UK bee population (we have = been over this time and time again on other forums) is unselected AMM = and these probably of French origin, which you are unable to separate = from native AMM. =20 AMM is often presented by its fans as THE bee to end all problems, if = only it could be kept pure - the truth is that it isn't. No native = strain is - Buckfast comes close to it though. Regards Roger White Superbee bees Cyprus. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 18:42:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Rose Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited In-Reply-To: <5623fafd0710150812p5796f35co8e9641c52535af8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Phil Moore wrote: > But where is the experimental evidence that Amm live longer? > I have found Wedmore's take on this subject (para 19, Manual of Beekeeping): ...Some Italian strains imported into Great Britain have shown an effective life as low as five weeks, whereas the British black bee had an effective life nearer eight weeks, and some modern strains show a still better figure. Cooper: “If 100 workers are marked in May, some can still be found ten weeks later, in an average summer. Strains with long-lived workers also tend to beget long-lived queens. Queens of any native strain should live for 36 months in full production, and those of better strains should live for 48-60 months when kept on a single BS broodbox… Longevity is the mechanism by which bees kept in hives with relatively small broodboxes manage to get such large honey crops in poor as well as in good seasons. It is the long-lived bee which builds up to a populous colony at the season of maximum honey flow, which shows the need for prolificacy to be false.” Tinsley: "It is interesting to go through the pages of the British Beekeepers' Journal and compare the honey yields of the beekeepers in the years before the acarine disease appeared, and the present time. In 1899 Lancelot Quayle, in the Isle of Man, produced 352 lb of honey from a single stock, and had an average of 200 lb from 12 stocks. Again, in 1901-2 his average was 187 and 122 lb respectively, but after being cleared out with the disease, his average has, with other strains of bees, never been more than 50-80 lb. Similar yields to Quayle's were freely reported in the Journal. I doubt very much whether our yields of honey compare favourably with those obtained by the older beekeepers". All this explains why my less prolific colonies compare so well with the prolific swarms I occasionally collect. Although I don't know whether the tests Wedmore and Cooper had conducted were of sufficient rigour to be considered scientific, I can't see any reason why all races have to have the same longevity and in the light of the views of these august writers and my own experience I would require scientific evidence to show that all races are the same in this respect. Steve Rose ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:59:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 15/10/2007 16:23:00 GMT Standard Time, philmoore01@GOOGLEMAIL.COM writes: <> It's not experimental evidence, but Wedmore says that 'Although much less prolific than the more generally favoured races, [the British black bee] made up for this by increased longevity and would gather more honey, especially in a bad year, than larger stocks of more prolific races.' Justified or not, I think we need to go back way further than Cooper to find the source, Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:54:12 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Italianizing, Part I MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 15/10/2007 14:07:40 GMT Standard Time, da ve.cushman@LINEONE.NET writes: <> I also wonder whether Amm genes were really eliminated, given that they appear to have been well established by the Victorian era. I always suspect that what you really have over there is a variable hybrid which includes a good bit of Amm. For all their efforts at breeding Carniolans, the Germans never eliminated the influence of the native bee, and their work was far more intensive than anything I've heard of in the States. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 21:23:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Italianizing, Part I Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robert Brenchley wrote: >I also wonder whether Amm genes were really eliminated, given that they >appear to have been well established by the Victorian era. I always suspect that what you really have over there is a variable hybrid which includes a good bit of Amm. * Well, you are right about that. In the southern US, over 20% retained genetic markers from the original imports, here referred to A. m. iberica/mellifera, which could include bees from Spain, France, England, Germany, etc. Quoted material: > Restriction enzyme analysis of 422 feral honey bee colonies collected from non-Africanized areas in the southern United States revealed that over 21% of them had mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) derived from a European race established in North America by the 17th century, 77% of them had mtDNA common in honey bees maintained by beekeepers and about 1% exhibited African mtDNA. > The large percentage of carnica/ligustica haplotypes probably reflects the influence of commercial colonies that have escaped since the mid and late 19th century introductions of these races. In addition, as descendents of imported A. m. ligustica constitute the majority of current US commercial honey bees, they probably continue to provide genetic input to feral populations. However, the iberica/mellifera markers found in 92 of the 422 feral colonies remain from 16th and 17th century importations. See: Mitoehondrial DNA evidence for the 19th century introduction of African honey bees into the United States by N. M. Schiff and W. S. Sheppard Experientia 49 (1993) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:02:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Mongralizing makes bees hot In-Reply-To: <47134F60.1060107@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman wrote: > these blacks with about one band to show trace of Italian blood are > the wickedest bees to sting that can well be imagined It does not matter which way round the impurity arrives, it has the same result. Wrapped up in the quote is an important point, that any race, whatever it may be, in a pure and stable state tends to be docile. In my yard there are hives that were originally Russian (pure), VHS (don't know what mixture), Italians (not sure how pure they were), and Italian/Buckfast cross. That was two summers ago. Since then they have been superseded (the originals were marked queens) and even with these now hybridized queens I still have a yard of docile bees. I work the yard and use a minimum of smoke if any at all. The bees are calm on the comb. I have seen only one or two individual workers which seemed determined to be irascible during one or two visits to the yard. I don't think that a general statement can be made that bees that are not pure to the race are hot or difficult to work with. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:16:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Queen II and Sue Cobey paper In-Reply-To: <200710151307.l9FD7lE9018109@mail.watchtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tim Arheit wrote:I just got a copy of the paper from Sue and read it over the weekend. It's really a good summary of many of the other studies on the topic and a worthwhile read I think if you are serious about producing good queens with II. -Tim . Tim, Unfortuntely I was busy and was unable to attend Apimondia because I was busy (Tongue in cheek) so was unable to hear Ms. Cobye's presentation. Is the paper open to public dissemination or need we purchase a copy? I would like to read what was presented. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 23:34:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Italianizing, Part I Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst, whose instant access to the literature never ceases to amaze, quotes: “Restriction enzyme analysis of 422 feral honey bee colonies collected from non-Africanized areas in the southern United States revealed that over 21% of them had mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) derived from a European race established in North America by the 17th century” From: Mitoehondrial DNA evidence for the 19th century introduction of African honey bees into the United States by N. M. Schiff and W. S. Sheppard Experientia 49 (1993) Very interesting. I would like to get my hands on that paper. Am I right in assuming the 21% from "a European race" refers to A.m.m.? I am wondering what the above snippet tells us about the history of viability of feral colonies since the introduction of varroa, and I wonder what a more recent study of this kind would show. Is it possible that the persistence of A.m.m. genes is in fact handed down from the old days or does it come from continual replenishment by more recently imported European bees? How would they know that the A.m.m. markers came from bees that were imported in the 16th and seventeenth centuries and not from genes more recently brought over from say Dave Cushman stock? Or am I just reading it wrong? Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 04:36:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Apologies to all In-Reply-To: <576576.60055.qm@web53405.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike Stoops wrote:Unfortuntely I was busy and was unable to attend Apimondia because I was busy (Tongue in cheek) so was unable to hear Ms. Cobye's presentation. Just read my post written last night. That was me?!!!! I thought I had proofread it. I do apologize to all for the horribly written sentence. I'll try to do better in the future. Mike Out of it in LA --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 04:16:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Apitherapy in Iran MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Apitherapy in Iran By Behnam Kaviani-Vahid, Pharm.D., Journal of the American Apitherapy Society, Volume 14, Number 3, September 2007 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/10/apitherapy-in-iran.html …It is now common to see pollen, propolis, and royal jelly at exhibitions and in shops selling honey and traditional plant medicines. With the safety of bee products ensured by health officials, the bee industry has grown significantly, particularly the field of packaging. As the industry develops further, new standards will gradually be introduced… ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:14:18 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Italianizing, Part I MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just to add a bit on the old Amm versus Italian (so called) here in Australia. In the 1860 to 1880's the move was away from Amm to Italian because the Amm could not handle wax moth. I am assuming it is the greater wax moth and not lesser wax moth. There was also a move in the 1890's to Cyprian bees but these seem to lose favour becuase they were a little aggressive. So Italian has been the main ones with a lot of our ferals being still a big percenatge of Amm. If you leave a hive in the bush and let it supercede a couple of times, you will end up with a hive that is very cranky, does not produce a lot of honey, has a lot of black bees and tends to swarm. FWIW Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 23:57:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Queen II and Sue Cobey paper In-Reply-To: <576576.60055.qm@web53405.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:16 PM 10/15/2007, you wrote: >Is the paper open to public dissemination or need we purchase a copy? I would like to read what was presented. It doesn't appear available online for free: http://dx.doi.org/10.1051/apido:2007029 Maybe if you have access though a university? -Tim ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:34:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited In-Reply-To: <4713A66F.2020906@tiscali.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Rose wrote: >>If 100 workers are marked in May, some can still be found ten weeks later, in an average summer. Seems like pretty lazy bees - sitting around loafing. Good bees work their wings off with frequent flight. Pollinator aka Dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:32:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Italianizing, Part I MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Steve Noble wrote: > Mitoehondrial DNA evidence for the 19th century introduction African honey bees into the United States * Sorry about the typo, it was introduced by the OCR program and I missed it. (should be Mitochondrial, of course) > Very interesting. Am I right in assuming the 21% from "a European race" refers to A.m.m.? * Not exactly. They are looking at DNA "markers" and the ones they are tracking are particular to; 1) African 2) mellifera and iberica 3) ligusitca and carnica "Differentiation among African, A. m. mellifera/iberica, and A. m. carnica/ligustica haplotypes was based on EcoR1 restriction fragment length polymorphism. " "The majority of colonies exhibited EcoR1 fragment patterns typical of the Old World races A. m. carnica and A. m. ligustica" "iberica/mellifera markers found in 92 of the 422 feral colonies remain from 16th and 17th century importations" "The probable racial source for the [African] samples, the Egyptian honey bee, A. m. lamarckii, was first introduced into the eastern US in 1866" -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:49:18 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Italianizing, Part I Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Could the black bee in the US of the 1800s be a different bee than the Amm found in the UK today? According to the UK side, the Amm gathered more honey when compared to the Italians under less than ideal UK conditions. Are there any Amm imports into the US today? It would be nice to run the comparisons again in the US. A lot has changed. Back in the 1800s the Italians were reported docile. Not the case today. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:36:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Italianizing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote: >>>>Wrapped up in the quote is an important point, that any race, whatever it may be, in a pure and stable state tends to be docile.<<<< AM Scutellata. Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:28:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Rose Subject: Re: Italianizing, Part I In-Reply-To: <20071016.064918.6504.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: > Could the black bee in the US of the 1800s be a different bee than the Amm found in the UK today? I often wonder that. AMM's cover such a range of geography and climate that they are not all the same. And these days they vary even more because they all carry differing amounts of exotic genes. Can it be assumed that the reason Americans call them "German Blacks" is because the majority were imported by German settlers rather than Brits. If that were the case they would presumably be better suited to a continental than a maritime climate and might have quite different traits the the bees that I, for one, am familiar with. Steve Rose UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:47:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Italianizing In-Reply-To: <001401c81001$e390d2b0$6401a8c0@NOTEBOOK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dick > Wrapped up in the quote is an important point, that any race, whatever > it may be, in a pure and stable state tends to be docile. > > AM Scutellata. Even Scuts can be mollified with selection of the best and culling of the worst, there was a correspondent on this list a few years ago doing just this. However the word docile in this case might have to be used relatively rather than absolutely. Because the starting point is so bad it will take more years of such selection to achieve a tame bee. -- Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:45:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Italianizing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/10/2007 16:42:46 GMT Standard Time, dave.cushman@LINEONE.NET writes: <> Wasn't there someone who bred them to the point where he could handle them in a T-shirt, at least sometimes? I'm sure I saw pics of him doing so. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:43:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Italianizing, Part I MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/10/2007 14:54:37 GMT Standard Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: <> Most likely; it's very variable. I have heard they were German heath bees, but that may not be correct. i imagine there was a fair mixture there early on, even if they were all more or less Amm. Amm are good in UK conditions, meaning poor weather, but may not be so good for a continental-type summer. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:31:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: News story MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What Was Behind the Honey Bee Wipeout? http://www.alternet.org/environment/65289/ By Gina Covina, Terrain. Posted October 16, 2007. Article implicates the practices of migratory beekeepers, but the reporter didn't interview any to get their side of the story. Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:25:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Italianizing, Part I MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Could the black bee in the US of the 1800s be a different bee than the Amm found in the UK today? > I have heard they were German heath bees, but that may not be correct. According to N. M. Schiff and W. S. Sheppard: > Historical records support the successful introduction of A. m. mellifera into Virginia in the 17th century by settlers from England. During the period 1861-1922 seven additional races were introduced into North America. These included: A. m. ligustica from Italy, A. m. carnica from Carniola (Hungary, former Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Rumania), A. m. cypria from Cyprus, A. m. syriaca from what was then Palestine, A. m. caucasica from the Caucasus mountain region and two from Africa, A. m. intermissa from northwestern African (Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and Libya) and A. m. lamarckii from Egypt. There is also some indication that the honey bee race of Spain, A. m. iberica, may have been introduced. Despite these early introductions, only three races (ligustica, carnica, and caucasica) are generally available and presumably constitute the current commercial population. -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:15:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Saor Stetler Subject: What Was Behind the Honey Bee Wipeout? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What Was Behind the Honey Bee Wipeout? By Gina Covina, Terrain Posted on October 16, 2007, Printed on October 16, 2007 http://www.alternet.org/story/65289/ On Alan Wilson's table at the Oakland Farmers' Market, row after row of glass honey jars catch the early morning sun that angles down Ninth Street. Some of the honey gleams a reddish brown, some a paler amber, depending on the particular mix of flower species the bees foraged. All of it was produced by Wilson's colonies, which number a third of what he had last fall, before the infamous bee die-off that afflicted growers around the world. "I'd better get the honey while I can," one customer remarks. The flurry of media attention given this winter's bee losses, now labeled "colony collapse disorder," has updated the world of bees for a heretofore-clueless public. Our image of honeybees is a lot like our bucolic images of farm animals -- and just as far from the brutal truth of today's corporate agriculture. We picture fields of clover, blossoming orchards, the wildflowers beneath the trees, filled with happy bees industriously gathering nectar and pollen to take back to the hive. As the bees gather pollen, they transfer it from plant to plant, thus assuring cross-pollination. Fewer people can picture what happens at the hive, where the bees feed the protein-rich pollen to their developing brood. The adults live on honey they make from collected nectar -- sipped from the throats of flowers into the bees' honey stomachs, disgorged at the hive into the hexagonal wax combs made by the bees, fanned by bee wings to evaporate excess moisture until it reaches the perfect syrupy consistency, and then sealed with a wax cap to keep it clean and ready to sustain the colony over the winter. In order to do all this, bees rely on a diverse range of flowers blooming over a wide stretch of the year. The honeybee (Apis mellifera) is a European native, one of very few bee species in the world to store honey in bulk and live fulltime in large colonies (30,000 to 100,000 individuals). It is the only bee with a long history of intensive management by people. For almost all of this time, and continuing today in many parts of the world, the rosy picture of bee life painted above is largely accurate. But when beekeeping meets industrial agriculture, the result is very different. Colony collapse disorder may have many contributing causes, but it comes down to bees hitting the biological limits of our agricultural system. It's not so much a bee crisis as a pollination crisis. And we may end up calling it agricultural collapse disorder. It's a rare beekeeper in the United States who can survive by selling honey. The trade loophole that has flooded this country with low-cost Chinese honey for the past ten years guaranteed that (fortunately for beekeepers, that hole has just been plugged by new federal tariff regulations). The only income remaining has been in pollination services. Alan Wilson's bees are rented out for almond pollination starting in February. After that they go south to the orange groves, then all the way to North Dakota where they make clover honey. Wilson's Central Valley location near Merced has little to offer bees over the dry summer months except roadside star thistle and the brief flowering of cantaloupes in August. Nearby agricultural chemicals are a concern, especially the defoliant used on cotton before harvest. Just the drift from the defoliant has taken the paint off Wilson's hives. Still, this year he plans to keep his bees closer to home where he can manage them more intensively and try to increase their numbers. Every commercial beekeeper has different arrangements, but each involves long-distance trucking and the California almond crop. Almonds are entirely dependent on the seasonal importation of honeybees. Growers can't get crop insurance coverage unless they have at least two bee colonies per acre at almond blossom time; some growers use up to five colonies per acre for heavier yields. Over 800,000 Central Valley acres are planted in almond trees. As beekeeper Randy Oliver says, it is "monoculture at its absolute worst -- they don't allow one species of weed to grow": mile after mile of bare soil and almond trees. No native pollinators can survive on this wasted landscape to ease the honeybees' burden, and nothing lives to sustain bees before or after the almond bloom. Truckloads of bees begin to arrive as early as November from all over the nation -- it takes virtually all of this country's commercially operated pollination colonies to cover California's almonds. While the bees roll down the highways, hive entrances boarded up, or wait in Central Valley bee yards for the trees to bloom, they're fed a mixture of high fructose corn syrup meant to replace nectar, along with soy protein meant to replace pollen. (Some beekeepers, Wilson among them, have switched to beet syrup as a safer though more expensive alternative.) Oliver sums up the patent absurdity: "When bugs from the east coast have to be trucked to California to pollinate an exotic tree because California has no bugs, it's a pretty whacked-out agricultural system." Oliver's 500 bee colonies -- he was lucky, with losses under ten percent -- follow a relatively short migratory truck route that takes them from Central Valley almonds to Sierra foothill wildflowers to Nevada alfalfa. He attributes his success to fewer and shorter moves, reliance on pasture forage for much of the year, and avoidance of artificial feeding. "Some of these guys move their bees a dozen times a year," he says. Popular pollination routes include apples and blueberries, which rely on honeybees for 90 percent of their pollination, peaches (50 percent), and oranges (30 percent). Farmers won't bother planting squash or melons if they can't get beehives in place by bloom time. One-third of all US crops depend on honeybee pollination. It hasn't been this way for long. Even 30 years ago growers could rely on a combination of native pollinating insects and local honeybees for most crops. In 1970, there were 35 beekeepers in Alan Wilson's area; now there are two. As farms grew more and more of fewer and fewer crops, using petrochemical pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizers, vast tracts of land have gradually approached the reductionist goal of supporting no life at all except the target crop. It's not just the almonds -- every crop is grown this way. That's why it's called industrial agriculture, or factory farming. Bee researchers have been calling bees "the canary in this coal mine," a different version of the birds and the bees. A quote attributed to Albert Einstein has been popping up all over the Internet: "If the bee disappeared off the surface of the globe, man would have only four years of life left. No more bees, no more pollination, no more plants, no more animals, no more man." Einstein never said it, but the instant ubiquity of the sentiment says everything. Though the media only picked it up this year, bees have actually been in trouble for the past couple of decades. Mites -- parasitic insects small enough to use bees as their hosts -- jumped from other species to honeybees, another example of collateral damage from global transportation. First tracheal mites in the '80s, then varroa mites in the '90s -- even before last winter, the world's honeybee population had declined by half in 30 years. UC Davis apiculturist Eric Mussen points out that before the mites arrived, winter losses of five to ten percent of a beekeeper's colonies were the norm. The mites increased yearly losses to 25 percent by the late '80s, and now we're at 40 percent or higher, with some years better than average and others catastrophic. Randy Oliver says, "If we made a list of collapses of the last 20 years, this winter's would not make the top five." Last year's losses were bad for Alan Wilson, but the last four years together have decimated his colonies by over 90 percent. The only beekeepers doing substantially better are the very small percentage practicing non-chemical mite control coupled with little or no trucking or artificial feeding -- in other words, labor-intensive vigilance combined with lower pollination income. It's not a financially viable option for many fulltime beekeepers. The difference with this winter's losses is not having an identified cause, and therefore no quick (even if temporary) fix. For tracheal mites, beekeepers developed nontoxic preventive treatments -- Alan Wilson successfully doses his bees on a mixture of Crisco, sugar, and peppermint extract. Varroa mites proved trickier, and beekeepers started down the slippery slope of synthetic insecticide use. "Until the mid-'90s nobody dreamed of using chemicals in beehives," Oliver says. Once they did, the race was on, with insecticide-resistant varroa mites evolving neck-in-neck with the newest chemical treatment. European beekeepers, who have had the varroa mite longer, have pretty much given up on chemicals and use an Integrated Pest Management approach. US beekeepers who go this route find it labor- and attention-intensive, and effective within its parameters (not eradication but healthy bees living with a smaller number of mites). According to Oliver, "We're just prolonging our agony as long as we continue to use chemical treatments." Everyone agrees the honeybee buzzed into the 21st century carrying a heavy load of stress. Colonies were weakened by mites, perhaps by chemicals used to kill the mites, and probably by at least some of the 25 different viruses carried by varroa mites. Add in a fungus, nosema, that's tolerated by healthy bees but a problem for already weakened hives. Then there's the stress of long-distance truck travel, longer distances for more bees every year. The small hive beetle, an African native recently found in Florida hives, posed another challenge; aggressive African honeybees attack the beetle, but European bees, bred to be docile, let it overrun the hive. Cell phone interference has been proposed as a threat to bees, based on reports of a German study showing bees unable to find their way home in the presence of high-frequency electromagnetic radiation. This particular theory must be called inconclusive at best, since the study was not designed with enough apicultural knowledge to produce reliable results. No bee taken from the hive for the first time, as was done in the study, would be able to find its way back, since bees navigate primarily by landmarks, not electromagnetic homing sensors. Their first few excursions are short orientation flights, not blind trips in a box to a release point. Of all these factors, many beekeepers judge varroa mites the most consistently debilitating. But there's another weakening influence more obvious and more integral to the larger agricultural dilemma. It's the stressor Mussen calls the most important of all -- bee malnutrition. High-fructose corn syrup and soy protein are not any more nutritious for bees than they are for humans (see Spring 2007), and bees in transit and between pollination jobs often must subsist on nothing but these non-foods. Compounding the problem, we're talking genetically modified corn and soy, every cell of which contains a bacterial insecticide. Are bees not insects? US studies have indicated that Bt corn pollen does not kill healthy bees or brood reared on it, but a German study showed that Bt pollen led to "significantly stronger decline in the number of bees" in hives already weakened by varroa mites. We do know that corn pollen in general is poor bee food, high in fiber and low in protein. The Midwest, up until now the country's best bee forage habitat, this year is being planted much more aggressively to GM corn as a source for ethanol -- aggressive meaning planting marginal areas and edges usually left to the asters and goldenrods that are high-quality pollen sources in late summer when bees need to raise the generation that will overwinter. Even when bees are out foraging for real nectar and non-GMO pollen, for much of the year they are likely to be ingesting a monocultured diet due to their use as pollinators for industrial-scale agriculture -- nothing but almond, then nothing but apple, then only watermelon. They're exposed to pesticides used on their forage crops as well. Oh -- and one more influence to factor into the equation -- very hot weather can damage the protein content of pollen, decreasing its food value for bees. Global warming is kicking our butts from more directions than we can comprehend. Given these conditions, last winter's losses can hardly be considered a surprise. Neither can the failure of bee researchers to come up with one specific cause, much less a magic bullet cure. Still, the kind of thinking that got us this far continues. According to Mussen, "the only hope is the USDA Tucson lab" which is working on a liquid feed that bees can eat all year. Randy Oliver calls this the "holy grail" of bee research. The USDA's proprietary formula, if they come up with one that works, will be patented and licensed to a commercial producer, and the whole agricultural system may manage to lurch along for a few more years, complete with pollinators hauled from Florida to California in time for the almond bloom. How did all those almonds get pollinated this year, on the heels of beekeepers' discoveries that half (in some cases up to 90 percent) of their colonies had suddenly gone missing? It wouldn't have happened without a change in regulations that allowed bees to be imported from Australia. Bee businesses Down Under went into boom mode, sending 100,000 packages of bees to the States. A package is a starter kit of about 10,000 worker bees and a queen, enclosed in a small screened box with a sugar water feeder. The receiving beekeeper shakes the package into a waiting hive, and given proper nectar and pollen resources, within a month a new generation of bees will be expanding the colony. The Australian influx may be short-lived, as a colony of Indian bees (Apis cerana) was recently discovered living aboard a yacht off Australia. The Indian bee is host to yet another mite that could wreak havoc if it spreads to the European honeybee. Another factor in almond pollination this year was the rental price for a bee colony, which averaged $150, nearly twice what it was last year. This was the first year in which the income beekeepers realized from almond pollination surpassed the income received for the entire US honey crop. There's talk of opening the Canadian border for next year's almond season. To paraphrase Randy Oliver, we're prolonging our agony by continuing with this profoundly unworkable agricultural system. Suddenly terms like "organic" and "biodiversity" shift from boutique buzzwords to elements of survival. This country has 4,500 species of native insects that are potential pollinators. On the East Coast, where farms are much smaller, more diverse, and broken up by uncultivated land, native insects account for up to 90 percent of crop pollination. Studies done on Costa Rican coffee crops have shown that yields are 20 percent greater within one kilometer of forest remnants. Canadian canola farmers show increased yields by leaving 30 percent of their cropland wild. It's all about pollination. Fortunately for us, insects are quick to recolonize formerly dead areas. Hedgerows, windbreaks, wetlands, woodlots -- the particulars of restoration agriculture are easy and already known. It's the big picture that's harder to shift, from the extractive industrial petrochemical model to the biodiverse ecosystem model. Honeybees have upped the ante, giving us all the motivation we need to change -- do we want to continue to eat? The material appearing here is copyright Terrain magazine, which is published by the Ecology Center in Berkeley, California. (510-548-2235). The material is to be circulated for educational purposes only, and is not to be reprinted in any publication, or distributed for commercial purposes, including copying for sale, without the permission of the editor of Terrain. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:56:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: News story Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Our esteemed author wrote: > On the East Coast, where farms are much smaller, more diverse, and broken up by uncultivated land, native insects account for up to 90 percent of crop pollination. This is, of course, utter nonsense pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 07:32:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave, >The reverse is true in UK and is one reason why bee suits have become progressively more strong in their degree of protection. Many beekeepers have made their bees aggressive in my opinion because with stronger suits they have taken to getting lazy about using smoke. Smoke to me is the beekeeping tool which keeps the bees calm. Used correctly most hives can be worked without problem. When you enter a hive without smoke many times you quickly get a few stings to your suit. Without smoke to mask the alarm odor the bees get on edge. Just like the bees remember a skunk scratching the front of a hive to feed on bees or another hive trying to rob through a hole in a box the bees remember the clumsy beekeeper (banging frames around) and working hives without using a smoker. Two exceptions to the smoke rule I have seen. AHB and the old black bees of over forty years ago. Both would attack when smoke was used at times and boil out the entrance. >How convinced are you that what you have is actually AMM, have you kept records and done morphometry on them ? I have not but they were common when I was a teenager in the rural area of Florida I grew up in. Also the black bees in Missouri were kept by a lifelong beekeeper from a rural area in his upper seventies. The one thing I remember about those bees was the way they were constantly trying to get to you to sting. If you had a hole in your bee suit or your veil was loose those bees would find an entrance. Once in Florida I sat at the kitchen table while my mother scraped over 60 stingers from me. For many years I have worn only a bugg baffler to work bees (sold by Mid Con) and is used by campers to protect aganist missquitoes. Not much protection with aggressive bees. Was enough this year but once last year I had to get the real suit out but my new helper was really stirring up the bees with his behavior. With his suit of armor (duck taped at all entrances) and failure to smoke stings he was the source of the problem. Plus some robbing was going on with the supers we had pulled. Help is hard to find so I had to make the best of the situation. The young fellows problem is he was always talking instead of listening. I learned more from listening than I ever did talking! I firmly believe that I need at least a 150 stings a year and up to keep my full immunity year around. I have had friends which retired to the bee farm office after years of stings and then get a severe reaction from a single sting. It is my opinion you need to either. 1.avoid all stings if a hobby 2. get over 150 (number given to me by Steve Carlston MD.)stings a year if commercial. >I consider it a pity that Bro. Adam did not put his attention to cleaning up AMM from the hybridisation that had already occurred, In my opinion Bro. Adam paved the way for other queen breeders. Cleaning up Amm would have been of little value to me. I am on a first name basis with many of todays top queen breeders and none select for as many things as Bro Adam felt was important to breeding the best bee. Bro. Adam was totally absorbed in his quest (until the day he passed at 95). History says Einstein was working with figures on his death bed. I am not in a class with these people but I wake up at night thinking about beekeeping and beekeeping problems. I am most content in the bee yard. Least content doing the backbreaking manual work of beekeeping. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:48:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: What Was Behind the Honey Bee Wipeout? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dang, I hate it when people "paraphrase" what I said. I've learned a lot this past year--No. 1 is not to trust reporters with an agenda... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:59:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was enough this year but once last year I > had to get the real suit out but my new helper was really stirring up the > bees with his behavior. With his suit of armor (duck taped at all > entrances) > and failure to smoke stings he was the source of the problem. Plus some > robbing was going on with the supers we had pulled. You hit the nail on the head, Bob! I work big colonies fast all day, and it's rare that I put on a veil, let alone gloves (winter and rainy weather excepted). I'll be done going through other beeks colonies, with me wearing shorts and sandals, before they are done taping up with duct tape. Not that I'm especially tough, it's just that after you've worked bees without armor for a while, you learn how to "read" and handle bees. When it's no longer painful, you know you've finally got it right! I see the same with the occasional crew member who always manages to "find" the hot colony. Seems to me that he creates it. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:02:58 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Italianizing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Wasn't there someone who bred them to the point where he could handle them in a T-shirt, at least sometimes? Yes, Barry Sergeant. I was also very impressed by his report and photos. Here is how he does it (be sure to copy and paste the entire link): http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:Pw_hL3XkazQJ:www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/sergeant.htm+beekeeper+Barry+Sergeant+South+Africa&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:28:51 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Italianizing, Part I Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Most likely; it's very variable. I have heard they were German heath bees ... i imagine there was a fair mixture there early on, even if they were all more or less Amm. Amm are good in UK conditions, meaning poor weather, but may not be so good for a continental-type summer. There is a native dark bee in and around the Bialowieza primevial forest in Poland. The local beekeepers and some scientists are working to preserve it. I am not sure about its productivity but it overwinters well and runs readily on the comb. My uncle who keeps bees diagonally across (very far from Bialowieza!) the country in Poland has bees that are dark in color and run on the comb a lot more that my bees in New York. He practices short-distance migratory beekeeping - moving to canola/rape, black locust, linden, buckwheat - and does well averaging 5 tonnes of honey a year from his 75 colonies. Now, my uncle says *Italian* bees have been considered the best for Poland since Dzierzon brought the first queens from Italy. As far as he knows he has *Italian* bees. He and the local beekeepers all raise their own queens only acquiring a couple of queens a year from other beekeepers for drone source colonies. Has anyone heard of rather dark, runny Italian bees with almost black queens? It occured to me that perhaps he had Amm, or Carniolans. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:31:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- randy oliver wrote: after you've worked bees without armor for a while, you learn how to "read" and handle bees. When it's no longer painful, you know you've finally got it right! yeah, i helped a friend (and his 12 year old son) start beekeeping this year. my friend complained that the kid was too rough with the bees and equipment, and didn't know what to do. "take away his gloves" was my answer deknow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:40:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: What Was Behind the Honey Bee Wipeout? In-Reply-To: <003501c81018$23b98740$6b2c95c0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Saor Stetler wrote: > What Was Behind the Honey Bee Wipeout? > > By Gina Covina, Terrain > Posted on October 16, 2007, Printed on October 16, 2007 > http://www.alternet.org/story/65289/ > "Until the mid-'90s nobody > dreamed of using chemicals in beehives," Oliver says. Interesting article that is good in places but way off in others, especially in the "end of the world as we know it". But that is consistent with all these articles. Armageddon sells. But no chemicals in hives before the mid 90's, a quote from Randy. There was the first, sulfur, which was around early in the last century, and fumidil, terra and a host of others for Tracheal, all well before Varroa and the mid 90s. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:48:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/10/2007 18:47:46 GMT Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: <> I don't make a habit of opening hives without smoke, but I've been known to forget to smoke them. Most of the time, it it's my Amm strain, it makes no difference, and they're as quiet without it as with. I currently have one hive which I wouldn't want to do that with, but it'll be requeened as soon as I have a queen of the right strain available, unless I lose patience and combine it first. I've had Italian hybrids twice, of different strains, and found them unpredictable and frequently downright nasty; my last bad stinging was from such a hive. I've never had one I'd presume to open without a good deal of smoke. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:59:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Italianizing, Part I MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/10/2007 20:38:43 GMT Standard Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: <> No, but I don't know about Carnies. Has bee driving ever been practiced in the region? One reason some Amm strains can be runny is that driving was widely practiced in the UK during the last couple of generations of skep beekeeping. Bees that wouldn't run would have been sulphured, so in some areas there must have been considerable selection for runniness. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:19:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill wrote: > What we try to do is take a bee, which was settled in an area in some > other part of the world that is similar to our area, and try to make it > work. In some cases it works and in others it does not. This would appear to be a logical way forward - the problem occurs when migratory beekeepers, or neighbours, move in with other ideas. Here in the UK we do not have the problem of very large migratory outfits, but our beekeepers are probably in closer proximity than in the US and often favour a variety of different races of bee; this, combined with a considerable amount of 'local' migration makes it very difficult to maintain pure strains in some areas. > There was an interesting article in a recent Science News about California > Salamanders. An import helped in the survival of a native species because > of hybrid vigor. The problem is that there has not been enough time to > tell if that vigor is lasting. Although F1 hybrids often display very attractive hybrid vigour, F2 and subsequent generations tend to be far less vigorous and may, as you say, express many bad traits of their predecessors. Whilst this may not be a problem for agricultural crops where seed is routinely bought in each year , it is a problem for beekeepers because not only do they have to keep buying new F1 queens, but they are at the same time contaminating the gene pool in their area - making them even more dependant on the hybridising queen producer, as they are unable to produce good queens for themselves. > So bees in the UK can be bred for the area because they were there > "forever" Not that easy! The bees that have been here forever tend to be in small pockets and constantly run the gauntlet of the imported bees - Italians, Caucasians, Carniolans etc - not to mention Buckfast!!! You do have at least one great advantage in many areas - vast amounts of countryside with beekeepers well separated. Peter And there never will be > because of the tremendous diversity of climate and topography in the > Americas. Eventually there would be regional bees just like the rest of > the world. > > Bill Truesdell > Bath, Maine > > ****************************************************** > * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * > * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * > ****************************************************** > > ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:13:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Italianizing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/10/2007 16:50:45 GMT Standard Time, RSBrenchley@AOL.COM writes: Wasn't there someone who bred them to the point where he could handle them in a T-shirt, at least sometimes? I'm sure I saw pics of him doing so. Ken Hoare looked at some in Mexico and reported that they're no worse than we're used to. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:48:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Chemicals and Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bill wrote: >But no chemicals in hives before the mid 90's, a quote from Randy. There >was the first, sulfur, which was around early in the last century, and >fumidil, terra and a host of others for Tracheal, all well before Varroa >and the mid 90s. I am sure you must be thinking of Sulfa, which is short for Sodium Sulfathiazole. This was first promoted as a treatment for American Foulbrood around 1947. (By the way Alexander Fleming, Ernst Chain and Howard Florey shared the 1945 Nobel Prize in Medicine for their work on antibiotics). Sulfur, on the other hand, was used for fumigating bee combs and comb honey as least as far back as the 1880s. Root says that in 1887, they experimented with a variety of chemicals to treat foulbrood, including salicylic acid and carbolic acid. Carbolic acid was later used to drive the bees out of supers, possibly as early as the 1930s, I'm not sure about that. I have some Walter T Kelly catalogs from the late 1940s and early 50s, which are interesting: In 1947 they wrote: "Everybody is talking about the cures they have made with sulfa. This is the new wonder drug." In the 1948 catalog you can find "Para-moth" (paradichlorobenzene) and carbolic acid for taking off honey, although they wisely state: "This requires a careful operator and we do not recommend it to the average beekeeper." Fumadil (fumugillin) appeared in their catalog in 1954. In 1956, they offer "5% Chlordane" for ants and Cyanogas (cyanide) to kill infected bees. Terramycin was introduced in 1957. The 1958 catalog states: "Terramycin, Sulfa, and Fumagillin can all be mixed in the same batch of syrup." The good ole days. -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:53:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Italianizing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>>Ken Hoare looked at some in Mexico and reported that they're no worse than we're used to.<<<< If I remember correctly Dr Guzman states that you can make them a little more manageable but you have to keep requeening. This is far from "Breeding AHB to be gentler." ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:01:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Italianizing, Part I Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter L. Borst wrote: >My chief point is that *I doubt that* the Americans would have mounted a >huge effort to replace the entire population of honey bees in the New World >were it not for their perception that the Italian was a *much better bee*. >That's all. I wasn't there, so I don't know. Hello Peter, Here’s an article concerning the great Italian bee / Black bee debate from some who were there: The Cedar Valley Times February 16, 1865 Cedar Rapids, Iowa ====Start==== Agriculture Department Italian Bee “We would like to hear from the experience of our subscribes with the Italian bees; who have none for sale, as we find that these who make a business of rearing and selling these bees, are not as reliable as they might be under other circumstances. We have seen no evidence yet that satisfies us that apiarians would increase their profits by introducing Italian bees into their apiaries. It appears from general statements that these bees are stronger than our native bees, and can work in cold weather, also that they are great robbers of the hives of our native or black bees. To breed the Italian bees pure is scarcely possible, unless one takes them where no black bees exist within three miles of them. It is, therefore, a settled fact, that a single family, of Italian bees will soon destroy the purity of a whole apiary of native bees; and it is a question of importance, is such hybridizing beneficial of otherwise?” We cut the above paragraphs from an article on Italian bees in the Rural American. We are somewhat surprised to see such a query from the source from which it comes. We believe Mr. Miner, the editor of the American professes to have done more or less with bees for some twenty years past. We have done everything with the Italian bees, and, as we have none for sale, (not so much as one queen,) perhaps a brief statement of fact concerning our observations and experience may be deemed "reliable." In March last, we purchased of Mr. O. D. Bent of Iowa City, one stand of the Italians. They were received in good condition, though brought through by railroad and team fifty five miles by the latter conveyance in a common lumber wagon and over a rough road. The swarm was a light one, as we found on examination, both in numbers and stores, a condition which promised no very flattering success, on the start at least. We determined to give them a fair trial with our native bees, and among other things to test their honesty. The hive was placed upon a stand between two native swarms and distant from each about twenty feet—one a very strong colony, and the other a very weak one. Early in June, the Italians gave out a very heavy swarm in the natural way, which was immediately transferred from the bush to a Langstroth hive. Inside of twenty days subsequent, a second swarm came out, and which was placed in a box hive fourteen inches square in the clear, filled with movable comb frames. Early in August four full frames of honey were removed from the first new swarm, and their places supplied with empty ones, and at the same time, the six supers (extra boxes) put in place. At the close of the season the main body of the hive and three of the extra boxes were full, and considerable progress made in the other three. The swarm which came out last, filled every frame in the hive plump full—leaving between some of the combs scarcely space enough for a single bee to pass. We have never before seen combs packed so close. So much for the Italians, while we have no increase to report from either of the two swarms of native bees. Nor do we think that the stronger swarm of the two, stored so much honey, or were so strong in numbers at the time we housed them for the winter, as were either of the two Italian colonies. After what appears to us to be a fair trial of the two kinds of bees, side by side, we are forced to the conclusion that of two colonies of equal size, the Italians will accomplish a vest deal more than the natives. We find the former much more active and hardy than the latter. They are out at an earlier hour in the morning and work later night. We hare repeatedly visited the hives before sunrise and found the Italians moving in large force, while nary native was to be seen about. The Italians are charged with possessing an insatiable appetite for marauding, but so far as our observation goes, their propensities for robbing are not more manifest than those of the black bee. We watched them very closely, and the condition of ether swarms, from the time of their introduction to the close of the season, without discovering any molestation of neighbors. So far, we do not think the Italian bee has been over rated. However, we will see whether another season's experience will present a different phase. We would advise no one to dabble with queens alone for the purpose of improving their native swarms, because we do not believe that one person out of fifty would meet with success. Have a full swarm or none.—Iowa Homestead. =====End===== Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:05:44 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: Italianizing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Yes, Barry Sergeant. I was also very impressed by his report and > photos. Here is how he does it (be sure to copy and paste the > entire link): I took those photos, they been copied from my website: http://beeman.se/za/za-1-nf.htm When talking about gentle scuts, we have to remember they were compared to the real thing. Yes they were much gentler than wild bees, but not near what I would use in my operation. Barry had been selecting for larger bees, those built 5,2 mm comb instead of the 3,9 wild scuts build. I would hesitate to say those were "original" scuts... -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden http://beeman.se ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:51:08 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There has been some talk about Buckfast lately. It seems to me some don't understand what Buckfast really is. Br Adam was the inventor of a new way of breeding bees. He didn't look for the best pure strain or race, but instead searched for new combination of strains that would create a better bee for commercial use. Buckfast is an ongoing project to improve bees by incorporation new strains and evaluate the result. Same as we do with most other food production. The proponents of a.m.m. are doing the opposite, trying to revert back to something lost 100 years ago. World has changed a lot since then. I think we need different bees today to cope with the ever increasing movement of bugs and diseases due to our travel and transports. Vi need the vitality crosses between strains/races can create. But I'm afraid Chris, Dave, Robert might have a different view... ;-) Nobody becomes a prophet in his own country... Buckfast has changed beekeeping in large parts of Europe. We have had them here in Sweden more than 40 years. There is not one Buckfast line, but many slightly different, each adopted to the local conditions where the breeder works. I had US beek with me about 10 years ago. That person had previous season worked for a large operation in Texas producing "Buckfast" queen. Those Buckfast queens had been mated to the same drones as the Italian queens.... And in one of the mating yards there had been a drone producing hive so "hot" they wouldn't go near it. When talking about US large scale produced queens we should be aware it might not be exactly what the label say... -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden http://beeman.se ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:38:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andrew Johnston Subject: Re. Italiaizing,Part1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar wrote, Has anyone heard of rather dark, runny Italian bees with almost black queens? It occured to me that perhaps he had Amm, or Carniolans. Brother Adam wrote in "Breeding the Honeybee" - The Essential Characteristics of the Races of Bees - Ligustica:- first three lines, "This race embraces a number of clearly distinguishable varieties. From the commercial and breeding point of view the best is the dark, leather-coloured bee which has its home in the Ligurian Alps. The lighter coloured variety, which was at one time sent all over the world from the region round Bologna, proved satisfactory everywhere, but showed the drawbacks of the race more clearly than the darker bee". Fwiw Andrew Johnston ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:20:45 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited In-Reply-To: <4716053C.4030906@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi P-O > The proponents of a.m.m. are doing the opposite, trying to > revert back to something lost 100 years ago. There may be some people that seek to do what you say, but I and most of my friends are not trying to turn the clock back and go back in time. I want a bee based on AMM because nature tells me that it is right for the circumstances, I want a bee that is stable and breeds true, is fit for modern beekeeping and the pests it is going to encounter. Another way of putting it is that I seek the bee that the 100 year old stocks of AMM would have become if they had the advantage of a dedicated following like that which has grown up for the Buckfast cause, and bees that had been selected over that whole period of time would be considerably better than 100 years ago. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:51:26 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Italianizing, Part I Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>One reason some Amm strains can be runny is that driving was widely practiced in the UK during the last couple of generations of skep beekeeping. Bees that wouldn't run would have been sulphured, so in some areas there must have been considerable selection for runniness. I have never heard of bee running (with smoke?) in the area. My uncle's selection criteria are productiveness, good overwintering, and disease resistance. Runniness is not a big deal to him. I only noticed it because I don't see it in my bees. Thank you. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 05:34:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: News and reporters In-Reply-To: <1d5801c81025$22c1f4f0$47ab5142@MyPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit randy oliver wrote: Dang, I hate it when people "paraphrase" what I said. I've learned a lot this past year--No. 1 is not to trust reporters with an agenda... Hey Randy, My local paper promoted me to the status of a professor at Auburn University a couple of years ago. For about a week I had "high status" around here. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:17:04 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Amm [Was: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This question is for the folks who keep and/or breed Amm: do you use unlimited broodnest in your set-up or do you use a limited nest with queen excluders? Thanks, Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:31:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Propolis, Mupirocin Combination Reduced MRSA Cell Count MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Propolis, Mupirocin Combination Reduced MRSA Cell Count Antibacterial Activity of Propolis Against MRSA and Synergism with Topical Mupirocin The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. 2007, 13(7): 713-718. http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/10/propolis-mupirocin-combination-reduced.html Objectives: The aim of the present study was to investigate the activity of the propolis and its combinations with mupirocin against methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) in nasal carriage… ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:43:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/10/2007 11:24:44 GMT Standard Time, pogust@GMAIL.COM writes: <> Of course. If Amm had genuinely been lost in the IoW disease epidemic, whatever it really was, then we wouldnt be able to go out and find it still thriving! I do think something has been lost though. I read old books, and find accounts of prolific Amm strains that I'd give a lot to be able to try, if only to compare them with what we currently have. But as I said in an earlier post, I can normally handle them without worrying about stings. When I find Italian hybrids over here (not over there, three leagues beyond the wild world's end) which are as reliable, I'll start to consider them seriously. There are other aspects of the hybrids which I dislike as well, but my number one consideration, with close neighbours, is that I have to have bees which I can handle without donning full plate armour. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:27:29 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Queen II and Queen Longevity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I find the greatest difficulty to be drone production. No problem to inseminate queens, it's a matter of few minutes per queen. Artificial insemination is a big advantage in the late season, when in-air mating are typically not successful, provided good quality semen is collected earlier in the season. I've a couple of cases where, late in the seasons, virgins would disappear from nucs. My guess is they attempted a mating flight and failed to make it to the congregatrion area (provided they still exist in some form in late season) or failed to return successfully. I also have a theory that birds may pick off virgins more in the late season since fewer other insects are available... Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:07:34 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...in California( shown at the spring 2005 KHPA meeting) in almonds showing the Australian bees flying to almonds in RAIN (while several of our best Italian lines huddled at the entrance). My bees will fly in drizzle or light rain if there is a good flow. Flying in regular rain escpecially with cold temps can get a lot of bees grounded and dead. >>Flew and hour earlier and an hour later than our U.S. italians. I had a hive once that flew an hour earlier and later than the other colonies. Had me think at first it was going to do exceptionally well. As the season progressed, it lagged behind the other colonies which made up for shorter work days with more intense flying. The above is not my disagreeing with you all beekeeping is local. It's just my thinking out loud. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 19:02:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>When you enter a hive without smoke many times you quickly get a few stings to your suit. One of the drawbacks of a bee suit - unless you wash it often, the odor of stings from a previous inspection puts bees on guard. I wear shorts and a T-shirt unless is hot (then the T-shirt comes off). :) I may light up the smoker, if there is no flow, and keep it to the side. Its practical function for me really is to drive the bees in between the frames when putting the hive bodies back on so as not to squash bees by the dozen. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:24:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Amm [Was: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar asked: > This question is for the folks who keep and/or breed Amm: do you use > unlimited broodnest in your set-up or do you use a limited nest with queen > excluders? I use a single British National brood box with a queen excluder. It is rare for a queen to need more room than this provides, but without the excluder I find that they will make the nest more vertical in shape by using the first super. (...and before someone tells me that this will not produce enough bees to get a decent crop, have a look at the picture here: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/Newsletters/August2007.htm). Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 02:56:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Amm [Was: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/10/2007 16:34:02 GMT Standard Time, waldig@NETZERO.NET writes: <> I use excluders. My bees seem to like a fairly tall broodest, but not a big one; they nowhere near fill a 12x14 broodbox with brood, so I don't see that I'd gain anything apart from a bit of brood in my supers. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:38:45 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Robert Brenchley > But as I said in an earlier > post, I can normally handle them without worrying about stings. When I find > Italian hybrids over here Hello Robert, Thought we would hear from you..:-) I hope you don't refer to Buckfast as "Italian hybrids", as that would really prove my point of limited knowledge among some UK beeks of what Buckfast is. I get a bit frustrated with this kind of statements. And yes, I have had a.m.m. myself. Also Ligustica, Carnica and every mix between them in my commercial operation. To me, Buckfast is the best from different races mixed together in a bee that gives me the best possibility to make a living from them. And no, mixes between races don't produce hot bees if both lines are gentle to start with. Believe me, I have done it. Buckfast is here among most considered the gentlest of all races...and the race that best can handle mixing with other races without getting hot. We had a US friend visiting in August when we were taking last honey off and preparing for winter. He had one of those cameras that can record video, and I have uploaded some clips to Youtube that you can watch yourself and see how we work our bees. We rarely use veils, sometimes on a rainy day if we have to dig into the brood nest. Looking for a queen to change: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1CkEL1Cork Feeders on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3Bx-fn4Xxs When it comes to gentleness my criteria is bees that never fly up in your face. A sting on the hand if you move too fast is tolerated. This is Buckfast bees, not any mongrel you might have experienced in the UK....:-) -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden http://beeman.se ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 07:55:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Chemicals and Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A friend writes: > Don't forget the use of formaldehyde against AFB in the 1930s. I neglected to mention this one because I didn't have the references. It seems to have been been discussed widely in 1903 and 1904 in "Gleanings". Many methods were tried to fumigate combs with formaldehyde, liquid or vapor. This went for at least 30 years, always trying to get just the right method. For example, in 1930, the "American Bee Journal" ran an article on fumigating with formaldehyde vapor called "Two Years' Experience With Gas-treated Combs" and another with the bold title: "The Permanent Eradication of American Foulbrood". But by 1941, R. E. Foster wrote: > The State Plant Board of Florida first undertook eradication or control of American foulbrood in 1919. It was the first agency to require destruction by burning as the only adequate means of dealing with the disease. This practice is now almost universally followed and recommended by apiary inspectors throughout the country. * * * As to actually medicating the bees themselves, this is mentioned in the 1908 "ABC & XYZ": > Two antiseptics have been recommended. One is carbolic acid and the is naphthol beta. The former has such a strong odor that it is with difficulty, if at all, that the bees will take syrup medicated with it; but they offer no objection to whatever syrup having naphthol in it. I would advise every beekeeper who has once had foulbrood in his apiary to medicate all syrups he feeds to his bees. This ought to put a quietus on the worst nenmy with which bee-keepers have to contend. < So chemicals have been fed to bees for at least 100 years -- Peter L. Borst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:02:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Mongralizing makes bees hot In-Reply-To: <602184.637.qm@web53407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm hardly the expert on bee genetics, but it seems to be a rather fine line between mongralizing and hybridization. I would suspect creating a hybrid would involve positive traits, yet the genetic base of any insect is so diverse, we have no idea what lurks beneath the obvious and observable. A long time ago, I had a bunch of mean nasty bees from a nationally reputable queen breeder and package supplier. They were horrible to work with and impervious to smoking. Thinking all the bees from this supplier were this way, I went with another company to order a specifically "gentle" queen with the hopes of requeening. I paid big bucks for the one queen (shipping is outrageous), and when I placed the order, I killed off the old, mean queen to give the colony a period of queenlessness. The new queen showed up dead, even with overnight shipping. After vainly trying to contact the shipper, and after more delays, the queenless colony made themselves a new queen. To my surprise, after she mated with the bees in my yard, some no doubt from the mean nasty hive, the colony settled down to be very gentle. I'm wondering if all this hybridization/mongralizing is nothing but a roll of the dice. Grant Jackson, MO __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:02:31 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Dave Cushman > I want a bee based on AMM because nature tells me that it is right for > the circumstances, I want a bee that is stable and breeds true, is fit > for modern beekeeping and the pests it is going to encounter. Hi Dave, I do understand what you are trying to achieve, however I'm not so sure it's going to be that successful. I don't know about the UK, but I would assume it's not that different to what is going on here. I'm talking about the general change in beekeeping that's been going on for a while. The change from hobby towards commercial beekeeping. There are fewer hobbyists for every year, while those of us making a living from bees increase the number of hives. Total number of hives is fairly stable. This will mean demand for easy managed bees suited for larger operations will increase. Those bees that need swarm preventive actions etc, that takes longer time to manage will not be suitable. We live in a world where profit sets the rules, like it or not... And I have a hard time to believe our ancestors were fools. I believe they made their selection based on the knowledge they had at the time. They choosed to change from a.m.m. to other races because they found them to be better suited for the purpose. > following like that which has grown up for the Buckfast cause, No Dave, nothing "grew up for the cause", they simply were better bees. That's why we choose them. Now I do appreciate your work, and hope it will continue as we need variation and keep genes for the future. Who knows, you might prove me wrong :-) -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden http://beeman.se ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:11:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Mongralizing makes bees hot In-Reply-To: <606828.59412.qm@web31609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Grant Gillard wrote: > I'm hardly the expert on bee genetics, but it seems to be a rather fine line between mongralizing and hybridization. All in the eye of the beholder. Both end up with the same thing, a new mix of genes from the original "pure" strains. In the case of the hybrid, you try to (and nature might) stabilize it there. If it is not stable, it reverts backwards. In the case of the mongrel, you (and nature) do not care and keep on hybridizing toward stability. Also, calling it a hybrid tends to sell better. An unintentional "Labrador-Collie-Shetland mix" sells better than a "mongrel" even though it clearly meets that definition. Bill Truesdell ( a pure Scot-English-French-Italian-German-Dutch-Norse-African hybrid) Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:37:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Amm [Was: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited] In-Reply-To: <009c01c8110c$7370a120$9dbb6a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <009c01c8110c$7370a120$9dbb6a58@office>, Peter Edwards writes >(...and before someone tells me that this will not produce enough bees >to get a decent crop, have a look at the picture here: Very nice indeed, though very rarely would I ever let them get so tall as we would remove honey regularly on management visits. (10 is not unknown in our operation on blossom, though not in recent years due to the near extinction of the raspberry industry, and would have been taken off in 2 or 3 lots. Then there is the heather to be migrated to after that.) However, I do have pics of colonies up to 8 Langstroth deeps tall too, on the heather in 2006 (blossom honey previously removed). Now, as with your pics, I could give the impression that that is how I fare for crop, but that would be a false impression. All the dinks and duds, all the middle of the roaders, and all the top dogs (which are usually exceptional, or you and I would not normally be photographing them) go together to make your true harvest level. Bottom line is, having had a go with many types, including the so called low vigour long life types, I could not pay the mortgage and the staff working with the single BS deep type of bee. I need more oomph, I need a boom in population in August, I need a bee that can get me a crop in a week if that is the only window that opens. Maybe in your area you are in the happy position of being able to accumulate a harvest over a protracted period, but sometimes, and this year is a good example in our area, this long yielding period is not available. 10 days at the end of August and start of Sept was all we got for our main economic harvest. The bees got nothing from mid May to late August, and those of our bees which are the lower vigour types just did not do the business. But we will still have >26 tonnes of heather honey......and its the higher vigour colonies that did the business. As for bee life span? On the heather it is very short anyway, the old timers I met as a youngster said 'heather eats bees' and anecdotally it is said that the working life of a bee (regardless of racial type) once it emerges as a forager on heather is 'about 6 days'. We have a relatively short season with a spring and July breeding peak, so do not have the long intense load on the queens as is the norm in places further south. Perhaps that is a factor, but we see little practical difference in the *useful* lifespan of Amm queens and hybrids (mainly carnica). Italians do not do well in this area due to their lack of liking for the cold and often wild climate. Early and late flying is a thing I thought was an advantage in the past, and even have had bees that would forage in 7 and 8degC, in fact have some now. Bottom line is, as another poster stated, they do no better than those bees which wait until it is a bit warmer and there is actually something out there to get other than a bit of pollen before mounting an effort to forage. Often the later starters were more intense in their work in the peak of the day, and the early starters often went through a quiet spell. We DO use excluders. They are an important management tool for us where the bees need to be intensively worked in May and June and we need to know where the queen is. However, to achieve the August peak of foragers we remove all excluders at the examination closest to 1st July and allow the queen unlimited brood space at that time. It works for *us*, but as has been so often repeated...........all beekeeping is local, so would not presume to know what is best for anyone else in a different situation. Amm is no angelic bee. Its has strong points and bad points. It is looked back on with rose tinted glasses. However I could not do as I do in Eastern Scotland without at least SOME of its hardy traits. As a boy in the 60's I remember going to an old beekeeping lady ( a distant relative actually, her name was Bessie Skene) who kept a significant apiary at Ballater in Scotland. She died aged 89 or 90 (?) when I was about 11 (1966) but sold her honey to my father every year. See had worked the bees with her father when she was a young girl. She remembered the old black bee, she remembered Isle of Wight disease, she remembered the bees that came along later. Her opinion of the old black bee was not high, stingier and swarmier than the later bees, but beautiful comb honey. She also related about high losses during the IOW years, but never told of complete wipe outs. She preferred her 1950's bees to those of 50 years earlier, by the 1960's she was not fit any more and her family did the bees for her. FWIW, John Whent, who is probably without equal in the UK as a honey getter, at least in terms of effort to production, does NOT use the black bee. He is a carnica man, and reckons the ones he sourced in Germany are the best he has found for his purpose. I cannot argue with a man who gets 100 tonnes with only himself and two helpers. He is in Yorkshire, a good bit further south than us and about 4 degC warmer on average, plus he has Borage to go to, so has that subtle climatic and forage advantage that favours the bee he uses. Been following this thread from afar, and can only say I will have to agree to disagree with several posters, ditto the thread that seems to suggest that we migratory men are evil incarnate. However, that's a post for another day . -- Murray McGregor ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:08:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/10/2007 13:26:03 GMT Standard Time, pogust@GMAIL.COM writes: <> I've never kept Buckfast, and I certainly didn't intend anyone to think I was referring to them! They do have a reputation over here for producing nasty queens in the second generation, which is one reason why I've never tried them. I want a stable strain. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:19:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > They do have a reputation over here for producing nasty queens in the second generation, which is one reason why I've never tried them. I want a stable strain. This surprises me as I try all strains of bees I can get my hands on. I want to evaluate for myself and have found many times the information passed on does not fit my observations. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:29:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/10/2007 22:38:26 GMT Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: <> That fits my experience with Amm to a 'T'! With only a few hives I'm a bit limited as to how many types I can try, unfortunately. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:10:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Chemicals & Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A friend writes > in Egypt we use terramycin, sulfaquinoxaline, sulfisomidine, and tylosin for foulbrood. Sulfonamide drugs (known widely as "sulfa drugs") were the first antimicrobial drugs, and paved the way for the antibiotic revolution in medicine. The dye-based drug was synthesized by Bayer chemist Josef Klarer and tested in animals under the direction of physician/researcher Gerhard Domagk. Domagk quickly won the 1939 Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physiology Later it was discovered by a French research team at the Pasteur Institute that the drug was metabolized into two pieces inside the body, releasing from the inactive dye portion a smaller, colorless, active compound called sulfanilamide. The active molecule sulfanilamide (or sulfa) had first been synthesized in 1906 and was widely used in the dye-making industry; its patent had since expired and the drug was available to anyone. The result was a sulfa craze. For several years in the late 1930s hundreds of manufacturers produced tens of thousands of tons of myriad forms of sulfa. This and nonexistent testing requirements lead to the Elixir Sulfanilamide disaster in the fall of 1937, wherein at least 100 people were poisoned with diethylene glycol. This led to the passage of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act in 1938. As the first and only effective antibiotic available in the years before Penicillin, sulfa drugs continued to thrive through the early years of World War II. They are credited with saving the lives of tens of thousands of patients. Sulfa had a central role in preventing wound infections during the war. American soldiers were issued a first aid kit containing sulfa powder and were told to sprinkle it on any open wound. Approximately 3% of the general population have adverse reactions when treated with sulfonamide antimicrobials. Of note is the observation that patients with HIV have a much higher prevalence, at about 60%. People who have a hypersensitivity reaction to one member of the sulfonamide class are likely to have a similar reaction to others. -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:44:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Mongralizing makes bees hot In-Reply-To: <606828.59412.qm@web31609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Grant writes: I'm wondering if all this hybridization/mongralizing is nothing but a roll of the dice. Reply: Old rule of thumb is when bees can go no hotter, then in requeening by killing old queen, they pretty much can only go gentler with new queen produced mating. Normally this works better then 90% of the time fwiw. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:02:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Beekeeping in La Gomera, Canary Isles In-Reply-To: <006c01c80d13$d20baf60$9dbb6a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <006c01c80d13$d20baf60$9dbb6a58@office>, Peter Edwards writes >We are considering a holiday in La Gomera, Canary Islands and would be >grateful for any beekeeping contacts there. > Don't actually know of anyone myself, but my brother who worked with me at the time went to La Gomera on holiday. He visited a local bee place in the hills and brought me back some nice honey from the establishment. It was Erica arborea primarily. Its a small island and for sure if this is still an ongoing activity one or two questions of the locals should get you the leads you need. I ate the honey long ago and don't have the jar any more. -- Murray McGregor ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:47:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Amm [Was: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Murray Thanks for the interesting post. > due to the near extinction of the raspberry industry, I thought that raspberries were still big business in Scotland - plenty from Scotland in our supermarkets, even though they are grown here in the Midlands. > Then there is the heather to be migrated to after The colony in the picture went to the heather and collected 50lbs. > However, I do have pics of colonies up to 8 Langstroth deeps tall too, on > the heather in 2006 (blossom honey previously removed). That is certainly good - we never seem to get more than around 60lbs at the heather, but we do not prepare the colonies for it - just take reasonable looking ones and put on two supers. The heather is too far away for visits, so it is possible that some would get more if they had the space. Unfortunately, heather is not easy to sell down here (except to migrant Scots). > Now, as with your pics, I could give the impression that that is how I > fare for crop, but that would be a false impression. All the dinks and > duds, all the middle of the roaders, and all the top dogs (which are > usually exceptional, or you and I would not normally be photographing > them) go together to make your true harvest level. I plead not guilty! The picture was taken to go with the article which pointed out the great contrast between colonies this year - and the caption pointed out the small queenless colony in front of the tall one. I wrote 'but the average will be kept down by the rags - colonies that failed to mate a new queen and consequently dwindled to nothing'. In fact, my average this year dropped to 48lbs. > Maybe in your area you are in the happy position of being able to > accumulate a harvest over a protracted period, In theory the season here can be quite long - and it has been in the past. The problem now is that we (in common with everyone else) never know when, or if, a flow will occur. This year, for example, we had a wonderful early spring - far too early - and colonies started to build well for the rape which was well in flower before the end of April. Then we were hit by drought and there was nothing coming from the rape, even though it was in full flower. May brought rain - but far too much and there were cold temperatures and high winds. Colonies that had swarmed in late April failed to mate new queens. The poor conditions continued well into July, with colonies looking very sorry for themselves. It was only late July and early August that saved total disaster. > But we will still have >26 tonnes of heather honey Very nice - but as you said, it is the average that counts and you did not tell us that :-) > the old timers I met as a youngster said 'heather eats bees' Certainly eats the old ones - but that may not be a bad thing - and it does produce a flush of young bees for the winter. In 27 years, there have only been 2 when our heather colonies were not the best in the following spring. > Early and late flying is a thing I thought was an advantage in the past, I am not convinced that this is always desirable. Higher risk for little reward; not many bee plants (if any) produce nectar copiously at low temperatures. > FWIW, John Whent,...a man who gets 100 tonnes with only himself and two > helpers. Certainly is impressive by any standards I would have thought, but do we know his average (based on autumn count)? > he has Borage to go to, Borage can really skew the figures. This year my nearest borage was about 4 miles away, so little effect, and I do not move to it. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 17:12:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: CCD "...Australian honeybees may not be the source..." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Another, CCD Article http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/2007/s2064198.htm ====Start==== Honeybees may not be unwelcome tourists after all Friday, 19/10/2007 A top US Agriculture Department researcher says Australian honeybees may not be the source of a virus that's killing US bee colonies. National Program Leader for Bees and Pollination, Kevin Hackett, says his agency is within weeks of making a recommendation to USDA's Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service on whether to ban imports of Australian honeybees. But Hackett says there is so far no firm evidence the Australian bees are the source of a virus, suspected of destroying a quarter of US beehives last winter. "We're looking into seeing when the virus occurred in the United States," he says. "At this point, we could just as well assume that it came from the US to other countries, as other countries to the US." Mr Hackett says there is today an association between the virus and so- called Colony Collapse Disorder. Other countries importing the bees, including Canada, have not had the disease. Nor, has Australia. ====End==== Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:00:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Milkweed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Ran across an article about milkweed and honeybees, published in the The Fresno Bee, June 16, 1926 Fresno California. My children have a board game they like to play. It’s called ‘Fact or Crap’ I’m not sure that I am to believe the ‘last paragraph‘. Is it, Fact or crap? About the author Arthur N. Pack http://www.desertmuseum.org/books/scrapbook_p5.html Milkweed Article: http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/211d6017ef_0.42MB (PDF link at bottom of the page on this link) Or read partial clip of the article below: ====Start==== …In the case of the milkweed, we have a plant which is partially dependent on the help of insects, several classes of Insects, bees, beetles, flies and perhaps others, can each perform the necessary office. The pollen is carried on discs, joined In pairs, which are concealed in pockets around the center of the flower, and so placed that they can not be removed except by some such Instrument as the foot of an Insect. In the course of his search for the nectar, the foot of the visitor slips into narrow slits in the flower. In some cases the unlucky insect is unable to withdraw its member, and is held until it dies. Numbers of bees meet their death in this manner, and it has sometimes been necessary to destroy a field of milkweed to prevent the extermination of a valuable colony of bees. ====End==== Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:38:59 -0500 Reply-To: whalen-pedersen@mchsi.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "E. Whalen-Pedersen" Subject: Re: Milkweed In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit J. Waggle wrote: > milkweed and honeybees > > I’m not sure that I am to believe the ‘last paragraph‘. > Is it, Fact or crap? For your kids game ... "Crap" In fact, according to Elbert R. Jaycox in "Beekeeping in the Midwest" (p.70-71 of *Circular 1125* published by the University of Illinois Extension, 1976, with revisions by E.E. Killion, 1985) milkweed is considered a secondary nectar and pollen source for honey bees here in the midwest. Erik ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 06:42:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Milkweed In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit J. Waggle wrote: > I’m not sure that I am to believe the ‘last paragraph‘. > Is it, Fact or crap? I suspect it's crap Joe, but then I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some beekeeper somewhere mowed down his milkweed to save his bees. I don't believe it's common practice. Clearly milkweed pollen presents a very real hazard to bees. In several summers of watching bees on milkweed flowers, I have seen exactly 1 dead bee dangling by a foot from a milkweed flower and it was because a pollen ball had gotten caught in a fissure in the flower. I have seen many bees with milkweed pollen balls hanging off their feet however, some were even foraging on plants other than milkweed at the time. Here's a picture of a bee with milkweed pollen balls on their feet on (or I should say "in") a Penstemon flower: http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/pollinia5.1.jpg Here's a bee on a milkweed flower with a couple of pollen balls on it's feet: http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/pollinia2.1.jpg There are a few other "pollinia" pictures in that directory. So not all bees end up caught in a milkweed leg-hold trap. That said, I have seen many bees almost unable to fly because of huge ungainly pollen balls on their feet. Assuming they make it back to the hive, other bees may manage to pull off the pollen balls leaving the pollinia attached- then you see bees dragging themselves around on the landing board of their hive with "dishrags" hanging off their feet, barely able to walk and apparently unable to fly. I suspect that for many bees, one good day on the milkweed is all they get. George- ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 07:48:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Milkweed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe Waggle quoted: > In the course of his search for the nectar, the foot of the visitor slips into narrow slits in the flower. * I have seen them pull their legs off trying to get away from milkweed. You can see a photograph of a honey bee working milkweed at: http://tinyurl.com/2asjf7 Pete ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:10:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Milkweed In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 20-Oct-07, at 7:48 AM, Peter L. Borst wrote: > > * I have seen them pull their legs off trying to get away from > milkweed. You > can see a photograph of a honey bee working milkweed at: > Hi Pete and all Great photo Pete! Back in July the sticky boards that I use for Varroa counts were covered in small yellow flowers like the ones on your bee. Do those flowers make it back to the hive in the thousands? Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 23:42:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Stop Flesh-Eating Superbugs With Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Stop Flesh-Eating Superbugs With Honey By Brandon Keim, Wired Science, 10/19/2007 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/10/stop-flesh-eating-superbugs-with-honey.html Drugs might not work against methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus -- better known as MRSA, one of the flesh-eating superbugs -- but honey could… ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 07:06:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Amm [Was: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/10/2007 23:36:40 GMT Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: I use a single British National brood box with a queen excluder. My set up is similar to Peter's. Sometimes I use 2 brood boxes temporarily when making an artificial swarm or a comb change. Normal wintering is in a single national brood box on their own stores. The ampunt of surplus honey they gather depends entirely on the season: the last couple of years have been very poor, the previous year several hives were 6 full supers high. I wouldn't claim that my bees are Amm; they are local mongrels that from external appearance seem to have a good measure of Amm, but there is nearly always a proportion of yellower bees mixed in. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 23:03:31 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Amm [Was: Honey Bee Breeding, Revisited] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> the last couple of years have been very poor, the previous year several hives were 6 full supers high. And how many lbs of honey does your single super hold? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************