From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:56:33 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-80.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SOME_BREAKTHROUGH,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9081849060 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFhrpi016524 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0711D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 250846 Lines: 5382 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:53:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: smoker In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I picked up a small smoker from an antique shop in Texas. The smoker is unlike those I have seen before. I believe the smoker dates to 1903. 1903 was a year of change in the smoker industry. Root added the junior smoker to its line. The root junior can be easily spotted because of the top not having a hinge, small size and the Root trademark snout. The little smoker I found is not a ROOT junior smoker but is very similar. The snout is like the 1903 (Woodman) Bingham. Yet the top does not have a hinge ( like the same year Root junior). Beekeeping smoker history from 1903: In 1903 the direct draft smoker was maunfactured by the Woodman company UNDER the Bingham patent. Its easy to see the 1903 Woodman/Bingham does not look like the earlier Bingham smokers. The 1903 Woodman model had a top which could direct smoke on the hive in an upright position . Once the difference is shown to the novice the two smokers are easy to tell apart. At least for me until this little fellow happened along. The little smoker I have got looks exactly like the woodman bingham except for two details which are no hinge on the top and the upper bellows mount is upside down . Both look factory to me and others which have looked at the smoker. The diminsions for the unknown smoker are three inch for the stove (the stove size was two and a half for the Root 1903 junior by comparison). The bellows diminsions for the unknown smoker are four in. by five inches. The height of the stove is five and a half inches. does the list know if Woodman made a junior smoker? My 1903 Woodman Bingham smoker I own has a four inch stove and the stove is seven inch tall. The bellows is five inch wide and eight inch tall. hinged top with correct bellows mounts. I have just returned from a trip. Thought I would ask as quicker than calling Paul Jackson or Wyatt M. Did Bingham/Woodman make a junior smoker? If so when? Root made an improved junior in 1926 which had a three and a quarter inch stove and five inch high but had the Root snout still and the top hinge was correct. I am trying to figure out who had the junior first. Root or Woodman. Using an idea with a slight change was common with the early masters. Thanks in advance. bob bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:55:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: migratory beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Sending bees to almonds. If there is a beekeeper/broker or almond grower on the list interested in getting a semi load. (448-480 hives depending on weight of the hives) email me direct and lets talk. You unload, put into almonds, bring out and load back on our truck. We will net the load. Contract required. Hives need returned to the Midwest around the 20th. of March to go into apples. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 01:02:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think I have to side with Peter on this one. The burden of proof is on the accuser. There may be intuitive reasons to believe migratory beekeeping at least contributes to some of the problems we face today, but what I am seeing here is trial by assumptions based on what people think MUST be the truth because how could it not be. I see a lot of statements being made as facts with no backup at all. I see no actual documentary evidence being presented for the argument that all we have to do is get rid of, or regulate more strictly, migratory beekeeping, and most of our problems will go away. And all this without much consideration for any adverse impact. Randy Oliver raised some good points in his post on this subject, but again, not much offered in the way of proof of a connection between widespread problems and migratory beekeeping. We may think it "stands to reason", but that in itself is pretty weak, especially when it concerns messing with someone’s livelihood. Perhaps the proliferation of hobby beekeepers is as much to blame as anything. We hobbyists let our hives swarm, many of us don’t know starvation from PMS much less what to do about it, and we are always having to buy new packages to keep our fantasies of pastoral living alive. Not me of course, and certainly no one else on this esteemed list :>). But before I go asking for more regulation, I want to KNOW that it will help, not just have a feeling that it might help. That means being shown the smoking gun that I didn’t know was in my hand, and that it is, in fact, the very gun that shot Liberty Valance. I am not UN-interested in what people’s beliefs are about things like migratory beekeeping, but I am more, much more, interested in knowing if what someone says has any real backing, especially when they are presenting it as fact. The only way to know if a statement is backed up by evidence is if the person making it provides the sources of their information. Some people on this list do a good job of that, and Peter Borst is one of them. Others, quite frankly, do not. It would go a long way toward helping me distinguish someone’s knowledge from their intuition if they would. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:27:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: The problem with CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If there is something > that causes CCD, the answer is in the west, not the east. Bill, I am in total agreement with you re a large number of colonies die as a result of mite infestation. The point that I was trying to make was that recurring collapses preceded either mite. Again, refer to Andy Nachbauer's SAD bees, BAD bees. Mites have just made the situation worse. I'm hoping that the CCD researchers can pinpoint what goes wrong--could simply be nutrition/nosema/virus, could be something else entirely. If they can identify the critical agent or cascade of events, then we can go about trying to avoid, mitigate, or treat. I'm greatly supportive of CCD research--even though teams may be barking up different trees. The end result is that we are learning a great deal about bee nutrition, immune function, viruses, nosema, epidemiology, etc. Smart beekeepers will benefit from this knowledge. I feel no need to second guess or criticise any of the CCD researchers. They are all working damn hard, and in earnest. I've learned valuable lessons from them all. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:31:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Commercial Pollinators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Can you imagine some government employee somewhere writing > regulations regarding rational responsible behavior for those who produce > honey bees for pollination? I can't. The thought makes me wince! Anything of worth will need to come from the industry. Randy ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:23:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: migratory beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > Either show me some facts that conclusively prove > migratory beekeeping does > more harm than good, or else get off my case. Ditto in regards to the unsubstantiated speculation about pesticide residues being the cause of CCD. The Dried Fruit & Tree Nut Association of California, has a lab in Fresno that for the small sum of ~ $500 can screen samples of food (such as honey) for the presence of approximately 300 different kinds of pesticide chemical compounds at concentrations as low as 5-25 parts per billion. http://agfoodsafety.org/laboratory-services-pesticide-residue.htm Why hasn't this inexpensive pesticide residue screening been done? Especially since the CCD team visited bee yards near Fresno last spring that had CCD? Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:12:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: The Hard Evidence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good Morning and a Happy Thanksgiving to all. Why is it that Ohau has now found varroa mites in 2007 when in fact they have been devastating honey bees across America since 1987? How have the beekeepers on that island managed to DELAY the advent of mites for as long as twenty years? Was the secret a tight regulation or free movement? (For imports, I am all for microscopic sampling at the port of entry, not mere a visual inspection) Or could it be their geographic isolation that has disallowed migratory mite-infected bees in the vicinity? Is this evidence not hard enough? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:18:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: The Hard Evidence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Good Morning and a Happy Thanksgiving to all. Yes, we all have lots to be thankful for! > Why is it that Ohau has now found varroa mites in 2007 when in fact = they > have been devastating honey bees across America since 1987? DUH! The Pacific Ocean perhaps? I wonder how Varroa arrived in Hawaii. Obviously it wasn't on a semi. = Many suspect imported bees. I have heard one speculate it was on bees = used for apitherapy. Regardless the point is moor. Whether train, = plane or automobile, Varroa has arrived. Aaron Morris - Wondering what they're going to do about it, that's what = I'd like to know! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:19:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: migratory beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Regarding unsubstantiated speculation about pesticide residues being the cause of CCD: I hear a prominent researched state last weekend that if one looks hard = enough for pesticide residues in honey bee pollen, they WILL find it. = The researcher did NOT attribute pesticide residues to CCD. Neither was = it ruled out. Aaron Morris - thinking I should be watching the Thanksgiving day = parade! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:55:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: migratory beekeeping In-Reply-To: <47453C66.7F92@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Paul & All, > Ditto in regards to the unsubstantiated speculation about > pesticide residues being the cause of CCD. If I remember correctly Paul you said you were an employee of a chemical Ag supply company ( please correct if I am wrong.). I speak with others employed at big Ag regularly and we have a "mole" in one of the largest companies feeding us information. I also speak with entomologists on a regular basis. With all do respect to those people which have earned the degree those people have told me it takes more than a degree in entomology to keep bees on a large scale. many of those friends have contacted me asking questions about keeping their university bees healthy. So have USDA-ARS researchers at times. After speaking with entomologists and USDA-ARS researchers the same question keeps popping up and I will ask you later in the post. Big Ag (company name withheld) tries to "muddy the water" when I ask the big question but even their scientific complicated answers (which do not go over the head of some USDA-ARS entomologists heads like over mine) some entomologists think are not reasonable and honeybees should be effected by the pollen from those plants and yes the chemical residues are found in the pollen . The chemical argument is when does the amount of pesticide become toxic to bees and should be instead (our opinion) . What effects on bees ( maybe not lethal) does the use of the product have. Disorintation from chemicals has been widely documented by Jerry B. & Mayer. The big question which big Ag studders when asked: The top suspect chemical (beekeepers fear) lists 12 insects it will kill . Kill by those insects visiting the plant. Some of those are tough to kill insects my entomologist friends tell me. However the chemical company says the chemical will not in any way harm insects like honey bees and butterflies which also visit those plants. You need not answer Paul but like a good lawyer I need to keep the other sides position in the BEE-L record. > Why hasn't this inexpensive pesticide residue screening been > done? Surely you are not suggesting no pesticide residue will be found? I grow apples, peaches and pears on my farm for sale to the public. I grew organic for thirteen years but had to switch to 1 or 2 well timed sprays as I became larger. I have had fruit tested at the lab in Columbia , Missouri (as well as honey). The lab informed me that traces of any chemical spray ever used on an apple can be easily detected. Although the amounts may very due to rain ect.. the chemical residues will be found by the high tech testing. Pesticides we ingest in our food usually stay in our bodies for a very long time. All of us would test positive for pesticides but I doubt the amounts would kill us but what are the long term effects? The whole organic food movement is based on people not wanting chemicals in their bodies in any amount (although chemical co. research says the amounts will not hurt you). The systemic pesticide in question (bees) comes in touch with the bees and butterflies which visit the plant and residues are found in the pollen. Big Ag can't really dispute this except by saying *their* research shows the amount does not harm bees and butterflies. What is the effect of any pesticide our bees are exposed to is our question to big ag. Last month I attended a presentation by Jim Tew at the KHPA meeting. it had been 20 years since Jim had done a presentation for the KHPA group. Jim started by saying how different the situation was today because 20 years ago we were stirred up over the new pesticide Penncap-M. and today the subject is in another direction CCD. The growers won the Penncap-M battle ( with commercial beekeepers)and the product is still killing bees around orchards but after huge bee kills beekeepers and growers solved most of their issues. Growers mow under trees and DO NOT spray until ALL hives are gone from the orchard. No exceptions! The big difference between Penncap-m and today's nicotine based products is that the new chemicals are sold over the counter even at Wal-Mart. Used on yards etc. Use is growing! In the case of Penncap-M we were dealing with less people ( orchards & farmers which understood the issue easily). The situation is different with the new breed of pesticides as the chemical companies are searching for new ways to sell the chemical. After a lifetime of beekeeping I know of nothing other than pesticides which will depopulate a hive so fast. Nothing! Spray Penncap-M on blooms bees are working and your hive will look like CCD and if none of the workers make it back no residue will be found in the hive. Thanks for your posts Paul. We really want to hear your position and thoughts. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:10:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: commercial beekeeping, facts please MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > The nation's beekeepers have been classified by USDA as (a) hobbyist, (b) part-time or sideliner, or (c) commercial or full-time. Hobbyist beekeepers own fewer than 25 colonies and keep bees for a hobby or for small-scale pollination of orchard or field crops. > Most honey produced by hobbyists is consumed at home, given away, or sold directly by the beekeeper. Part-time or sideliner beekeepers each own between 25 and 299 colonies and market their honey either through direct sales to consumers or retail outlets, or through bulk sales to honey processors. Commercial or full-time beekeepers each own 300 or more colonies and, according to the USDA, are responsible for about 60% of the extracted honey produced in the United States. > Beekeeping is heavily concentrated along the U.S. northern border from Michigan to Washington, where there are large areas of alfalfa and clover nectar, and in Florida, California, and Texas, where fruits and vegetables are sources of nectar and the growers need pollination services. The four leading states (ND, SD, FL, CA) account for nearly 50% of U.S. honey production. In 2002, there were 12,029 beekeepers with 2.4 million honey bee colonies, and they produced 175 million pounds of honey. > Honey imports were negligible until the early 1970s, when they began to grow rapidly. In 2005, honey imports reached a record high of 233 million pounds. The top five foreign suppliers in 2005, accounting for 80% of total imports, were China (28%), Argentina (22%), Vietnam (13%), Canada (10%), and India (7%). * * * > In 2006, commercial migratory beekeepers along the East Coast of the United States began reporting sharp declines in their honey bee colonies. Because of the severity and unusual circumstances of these colony declines, scientists named this phenomenon Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD). Reports indicate that beekeepers in [at least] 35 states have been affected. Recent surveys indicate that about one half of surveyed beekeepers have experienced "abnormal" or "severe" colony losses. > Diana Cox-Foster of Penn State University says there are some reports now of CCD making a reappearance, though mainly in the colonies of less experienced beekeepers. If CDD continues, researchers like Cox-Foster are concerned that we could see major problems in honeybee numbers next Spring. She explains that beekeepers were able to restore colony numbers this year, but the weather was in our favor. * * * Comment: These facts show that the bulk of the bees in the US are owned by commercial outfits, that they produce more of the US honey than the small timers, that even more honey is imported than is produced here. CCD is not limited to the areas where most of the commercial operators operate, nor is it only commercial beekeepers that have it. Also, so-called "organic beekeepers" have not been spared. sources: Congressional Reports RS20759 and RL33938 www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/bees/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:51:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 01:02:41 -0500, Steve Noble wrote: >I think I have to side with Peter on this one. The burden of proof is >on the accuser. There may be intuitive reasons to believe migratory >beekeeping at least contributes to some of the problems we face today, but >what I am seeing here is trial by assumptions based on what people think >MUST be the truth because how could it not be. I see a lot of statements >being made as facts with no backup at all. I see no actual documentary >evidence being presented for the argument that all we have to do is get rid >of, or regulate more strictly, migratory beekeeping, and most of our >problems will go away. Steve do you keep hives in areas where migratory beeks operate? If not I would suggest you don't know what you are talking about. so you're expecting to find volumes of scientific studies correlating the movement of large numbers of hives into an area and then proving the new comers left disease, mites or whatever? you're dreaming, the number of variables is infinite, every situation is unique. if you live in the upper midwest or CA and experience rapid increases in hives moved into your area one does not need a scientific study to prove the obvious. there is ample scientific evidence that AFB, mites and SHB spread from other hives. the final proof that movements of bees spreads problems is that we have an African Hive Beetle in North America and varrora mites that originated in Asia now around the world. doing a study to see if migratory beeks spread problems is like doing a study to see if people need food to survive. its inherently obvious. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:50:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The Hard Evidence In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (For imports, I am > all for microscopic sampling at the port of entry, not mere a visual > inspection) You are entitled to your opinion and freedom of speech makes the U.S. great! However holding up package bees at the port of entry is in my opinion very stupid! A pallet belongs to the beekeeper at that point and is worth approx. forty five to fifty thousand dollars!(uninsured dollars!) All of us involved with import bees ( I was involved with the first import) want all the inspections on those bees which can be done done but ONLY before shipped into the U.S.. \ The flight is 18 hours direct through for California. What changes happened along the way that makes inspection at point of entry needed? Why would you even suggest holding up those bees? Getting airport inspections is simply another headache (of many) in getting live bees shipped around the world. Aphis did not show up for the first import arrival nor has been at any other arrival to my knowledge. They trust the Australian inspection service and the Australians check for everything asked for. However we have been over this before and frankly I am getting tired of the same old drumbeat! Or could it be their geographic isolation that has disallowed > migratory mite-infected bees in the vicinity? We are talking about an island in the middle of an ocean! Duh! > > Is this evidence not hard enough? No! Our politicians could in my opinion (from a recent conversation with one and off the record and with friends can be blunt) care less if a remote island has varroa , those beekeepers have to deal with varroa and if they can't learn to live with varroa have to buy imported honey (like most of America ) as their voting block is very small. Maybe I am being too blunt but after awhile I get blunt when it seems my point is not being made. I clealy understand what you are saying. Do you understand my position? Losing a huge amount of money by bees dying at the airport when the inspecting could be done (and supposedly is being done despite what Jim Fischer says) before shipment is simply not a risk those beekeepers importing bees are willing to accept. Surely you understand our position. Are you going to sample all 400 packages on a pallet at the airport? Only one bee per package? get real! I guess we are going to have to "agree to disagree" Yoon. As I posted before despite what Jim F. calls the lack of regulations letting those bees be inspected once installed in hives in the U.S. every beekeeper I have spoken with has said they would let the USDA-ARS inspect those package bees after arrival ONCE INSTALLED! not a single beekeeper objected! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:51:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 22-Nov-07, at 10:51 AM, Brian Fredericksen wrote: > > Steve do you keep hives in areas where migratory beeks operate? If > not I would suggest you don't > know what you are talking about. Hi all It was reported, by a provincial official, at our local beekeepers group, that one of the largest migratory beekeepers in the US moved 50% of his bees 17 times last year. The other 50% were moved 21 times. After being moved to Florida in October, then to California in January/February a further 15-20 moves in the remaining 7 months. This type of migratory beekeeping is being included with the type that moves from the south to north and back each year. Obviously there is little in common. How common are these methods? Is our report true? Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:21:24 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: Re: The Hard Evidence In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:12:30 -0500, Yoon Sik Kim wrote: >>Good Morning and a Happy Thanksgiving to all. >> >>Why is it that Ohau has now found varroa mites in 2007 when in fact they >>have been devastating honey bees across America since 1987? How have the It's my belief that varroa has been on Oahu for at least 2 years, maybe 3. It's also my belief that they may have entered in the Ewa/Kapolei area where the oil tankers berth (although I believe most of them moor offshore and transfer crude via a pipeline). I base this on the level of destruction I see/hear with Kapolei being maybe the hardest hit with damage radiating out from that area. Although the Big Island queen rearing hives are inspected every six months, Oahu has not had any inspections since 2001 (hearsay - I've only been at this since 2004). Last year I attempted to put a proposal together to place bait hives around the ports of entry, not for varroa, but for AHB. Because our Coop is "for profit" and the grant monies were for non-profit or recognized research organization, I never submitted it (me bad). Howard on Oahu ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:30:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Brian Fredericksen wrote: >there is ample scientific evidence that AFB, mites and SHB spread from other hives. the final proof that movements of bees spreads problems is that we have an African Hive Beetle in North America and varrora mites that originated in Asia now around the world. Foul brood was very bad 100 years ago, before bee migration was common. In the American Bee Journal for June 1914, they report that in Wisconsin: of 9070 colonies in 285 apiaries, 3117 were diseased in 151 yards. C. C. Miller wrote: In 1913 he had 24 cases of European foul brood. As there were 83 colonies, that made 29 per cent. The mites spread all over the USA in a few years; this rapid spread has never been satisfactorily explained. Probably the vector is foraging bees, whose range overlaps. How could have that been prevented? Quarantines didn't stop it. Now we live with it. Small hive beetle is definitely moved around by migratory beekeepers, as well as by the sale of packages and nucs. Nosema ceranae, on the other hand, could have been spread by the distribution of queen bees. Seriously, does anyone really think that by stopping the movement of bees, that these problems will go away? Pollination is essential to food production, and migratory beekeepers do this job. They not only need to go in and out of the crops but they need to go south to build their bees back up. Finally, what are our priorities? For me, I am a beekeeper and I care about all the many people who keep bees, not just myself. Fortunately for us all, level heads will prevail. pb -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:39:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: The Hard Evidence Comments: To: Bob Harrison Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron, Peter, Bob, et all: Bob, as a practical beekeeper, you point out some of the sharp challenges involved in the logistics of microscopic sampling at the port of entry; the labor, the time, the cost, and most important, the welfare of the shipped bees themselves, just to name a few. (Perhaps the time-consuming examination process can be done at the country of origin before shipment) That granted, though, I just don’t see how a visual examination serves much purpose as the pathogens do not seem to come from the normal suspects any more, a point I believe Jim has been making. SHB serves as a good example. Peter, as I have once praised you for your indefatigable source-checking, I thank you for all the hard data-mining you have been doing, and I know how hard that homework is; for instance, I tried to Google “Migratory Beekeeping Problems” this morning, but I could not find too many sources hitting the nail on the head. Certainly I can think of many reasons for such lack of objective look at the migratory beekeeping and its impact to the beekeeping industry as a whole. To name one, when such practice started around 1922, as you say, nobody felt the need to do research on the practice since such beekeeping seemed then “natural” because the external variables were not as challenging as now. Another reason may be that researches on beekeeping have been on helping them do better in migratory operation, given its financial value; after all, they contribute largely to the national economy. They are the sanctum sanctorum in beekeeping; thus, nobody dared to examine their practice until the arrival of CCD recently. Sideliners and hobbyists cannot even form a unified front so far, let alone organizing their voices at the national level. This can and probably will change. Steve, the argument that many people’s livelihood depends on migratory beekeeping appears to me a non sequitur to the issue of the impact of migratory beekeeping and its mite dispersion, the focal point of this thread; even species go extinct regularly. People get downsized under challenging circumstances, as well. Finally, Aaron, thanks for your response. As you well aware, the bone of contention was not the modus operandi—-how the mites came ashore on the island. Nor was it to reconfirm the presence of mites on the island. These points are indeed moot. Rather, it was how the island has *delayed* the mites through, for the lack of better word, self-quarantine, thanks to geographical isolation from the infected bees. To wit, their QUARRENTINE successfully DISALLOWED the mites from coming ashore for as long as twenty years, helping them buy time to draw the battle plan in advance, evidence that seems to attest that proximity matters. Yoon ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:06:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: commercial beekeeping, facts please Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter L. Borst wrote: >CCD is not limited to the areas where most of the commercial operators >operate, nor is it only commercial beekeepers that have it. Also, >so-called "organic beekeepers" have not been spared. Where is this factual information showing CCD occurring in so called Organic Beekeeping operations? Or break down of percentages of cases diagnosed by expert analysis? I do not dispute that the so called “CCD” is occurring in organic operations, in fact, I agree with you strongly here, but by what evidence supports this statement? Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:59:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: migratory beekeeping Comments: To: Bob Harrison Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob: You have, however inadvertently and however we often agree to disagree, provided the list two wonderful examples of my assertion: the first quote bears witness to the changes in external variables in beekeeping over the years; and the second, the importance of some form of regulation in agricultural practice (as much as I hate the federal KGB): “Last month I attended a presentation by Jim Tew at the KHPA meeting. it had been 20 years since Jim had done a presentation for the KHPA group. Jim started by saying how different the situation was today because 20 years ago we were stirred up over the new pesticide Penncap-M. and today the subject is in another direction CCD.” “The growers won the Penncap-M battle ( with commercial beekeepers)and the product is still killing bees around orchards but after huge bee kills beekeepers and growers solved most of their issues. Growers mow under trees and DO NOT spray until ALL hives are gone from the orchard. No exceptions!” Thank you for agreeing to agree with me for the second time (the first was when I have identified your sumac honey). Yoon ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:30:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian retorts: “Steve do you keep hives in areas where migratory beeks operate? If not I would suggest you don't know what you are talking about.” Brian, if you will notice I never said that migratory beekeeping is not the cause of much of the problems we, and that includes migratory beekeepers themselves, are facing today. The reason I didn’t say that is because I don’t know. For all I know you are right. But you are just shooting from the hip. There isn’t any depth to your analysis. You make highly inflammatory, exaggerated statements about almond growers when in fact there are many more crops dependent on migratory beekeepers than that. You dismiss as insignificant the extent to which our food supply is dependent on the work these guys do, and you totally ignore the costs which would accompany your proposals. I am sure you have altruistic motives, but your approach is so simplistic as to appear self serving. When I stop to think about it, relative to the economic importance of migratory beekeeping, what you and I do is what seems insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I have no facts to back that up, by the way. I do not live in an area that is impacted by migratory beekeeping, but I am never the less subjected to all the common bee maladies, and I have to be constantly on my guard against them. I seriously doubt that eliminating migratory beekeeping is not going to change that for me. What may be obvious to you is obviously not obvious to a lot of people who have a completely different perspective on the matter than you do. What is needed here is less hyperbole and more facts. If all you want to do is vent your frustration or preach to the choir then that’s one thing, but if you are trying to convert the skeptics you need you be considerably more thorough. That is all I am asking for here. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:08:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: migratory beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon, the first quote > bears witness to the changes in external variables in beekeeping over the > years; External variables but also the old issue of SSDD. SSDD has been around since the start of beekeeping. Only now every deadout seems connected to the new plauge CCD. Will some researcher please explain why CCD is new? Why CCD is not simply the combination of many problems which have been here for awhile ( yet the U.S. best researchers seemed to miss) and if commercial beekeepers were aware of some of the last falls deadouts could have been avoided. examples are N. ceranae and KBV were found in 100% of the CCD samples! Should we not have been warned? Who knew and when did they know it? Why were we not told at the 2005 meetings of ABF & AHPA? I hate to air the U.S. dirty laundry but it is what it is. The worlds bee researchers told us that without a doubt Varroa jabcobsoni killed bees. Then along came Denis Anderson and proved the opposite with the discovery of varroa destructor. and the second, the importance of some form of regulation in > agricultural practice (as much as I hate the federal KGB): I can see you are one of those people which think we can legislate away our bee problems. Most bee movement is unregulated even if laws are in place. Not enough enforcement and even if there was funding to increase enforcement it is impossible to police the migratory beekeepers. We can't even police our borders so what makes you think the government can police bee movement between states. Are all the hives in all states with registered locations on registered locations? I don't think so! I live in Missouri. St. Louis is the 2nd. most dangerous city in the U.S. ( bet your guess was L.A., Miami , New York or our capital). Killings happen daily across the state. If you don't die from a shooting or mugging you are not news worthey. Last year I visited a friend at Truman West Hospital in Kansas City. Five gunshot victoms came in while I was visiting. The nurse said a normal night. The next day I searched the KC Star newspaper and not a word about those shootings ( maybe because the people lived?). A couple days ago I turned on CNN ( motel on the road) and the news was that down under they passed a law store santa's could not say Ho Ho Ho! CNN said they would be arrested as Ho Ho Ho was offensive to women. Slow news day around the world or simply trying to mask the real problems? maybe next week on CNN I will see a Santa was sent to jail for refusing to stop saying Ho! Ho! Ho!. Mary Jane is the largest cash crop in Missouri ( Kansas City Star) and Missouri is the Meth Capital of the U.S. ( KC Star). My point is we have got laws on the books which are supposed to stop these problems but yet these problems grow each year. I travel the roads at night and frankly make my pitstops along side the roads as the rest areas are dangerous in the middle of the night. I could share stories from the road but enough said. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 19:36:50 -0500 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Commercial Pollinators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob Darrell, a Canadian, reported of hearing of a US pollinator who moved his hives approximately 20 times (each hive!) to serve pollination contracts. Perhaps this is the same guy who lost 80% of his hives in late 2006/early 2007, and has publicly stated how many times he moves his hives. I have heard such a presentation and it seems he is saying 'see the results of good management'. He publicly claims 20 moves a year for every hive! This same guy said that in 2007 he grossed approximately $2,400,000 on Maine blueberries alone! He also pollinates cranberries, apples, Jersey blueberries, cucumbers, pumpkins, etc. Perhaps he is lying about all of this, but I think not. I also know several or many beekeepers who move all or some of their hives to Florida, or So. Carolina for part of the winter and then then back north to pollinate apples or apples and blueberries, or apples and pumpkins, etc. I think a good case can be made that the latter are practicing reasonable animal husbandry, while the former is a danger to himself and all beekeepers who cross his path. Unfortunately, there are 'several' who strive for the 10/20 moves per year, but most are smart enough to keep quiet about it. I am glad to have the former as neighbors and have learned a lot from them. The other guys may ruin beekeeping as a way of life, or as a hobby. There is absolutely no question that they spread maladies faster than they would otherwise spread. I think the jury is still out on whether their actions 'cause' the maladies. All commercial pollinators are not 'bad', nor is commercial pollination an unwise or unsafe practice. But there are sure some questionable practices out there, as well as some questionable characters. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 20:54:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Dreamworks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Who has got to see _Bee Movie_ (http://www.beemovie.com/main.html) yet? I think its funny and great to take the kids to see. It's got a lot of Hollywood in it, but also bee fact till I think the message gets out about the importance of the Honeybee. Russ Dean the webmaster for the _West Virginia Beekeepers Association_ (http://www.wvbeekeepers.org/) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 18:04:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: migratory beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Why hasn't this inexpensive pesticide residue screening been > > done? Bob Harrison wrote: > Surely you are not suggesting no pesticide residue will be found? No, several pesticides might be found in miniscule trace amounts (parts per billion). Miniscule amounts like that in the honey / pollen of CCD affected hives wouldn't stop ants, moths, beetles, flies and healthy honeybees from robbing. Much higher amounts would be needed to stop the robbing. Pesticide residue screening could quickly and inexpensively tell us whether or not the honey / pollen in the comb of CCD affected hives is contaminated with more than miniscule trace amounts of any particular pesticide. I think it is important to know what chemical is stopping the robbing and whether or not it is a commonly used pesticide. > The big question which big Ag studders when asked: > The top suspect chemical (beekeepers fear) lists 12 > insects it will kill . Kill by those insects visiting the plant. > Some of those are tough to kill insects my entomologist > friends tell me. However the chemical company says > the chemical will not in any way harm insects like honey > bees and butterflies which also visit those plants. Bob, I don't have alot of experience with imidacloprid but my understanding is that when used as a seed dressing, the imidacloprid accumulates in the plant tissue and kills visiting insects that suck on the tissues (aphids, whiteflies, leaf and planthoppers, thrips, scales, mealy bugs, psyllids etc.). According to Bayer, only miniscule parts per billion traces of imidacloprid accumulate in the nectar / pollen so visiting bees and butterflies are not harmed even though they are inherently more susceptible to insecticides compared to the whiteflies, thrips, etc. Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 22:49:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: commercial beekeeping, facts please MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jow Waggle wrote: > Where is this factual information showing CCD occurring in so called Organic Beekeeping operations? Or break down of percentages of cases diagnosed by expert analysis? Is this what you require? I don't think anyone can give an "expert analysis" on CCD since nobody knows what it is. But look: the whole thing was blown up by the press to begin with. The news reports were saying that no one from the 1000 members of the "organic beekeeping" yahoo group "was reporting CCD". Like that proves ... what? That they don't have it? Or, that they don't report it. Or, that they don't know what it is. Right, it doesn't prove a single thing. We don't know who is in this group, if they even have bees at all. And since nobody can agree as to what an organic beekeeper is, or should be, the whole thing is meaningless. Someone actually came up to me and said organic beekeepers haven't lost any bees. Who in the world owns bees and hasn't lost a colony? Good grief. But low and behold, some of the organic beekeepers have come forward. Jerry Bromenshenk wrote here, on Wed, 13 Jun 2007: > Non-migratory beekeepers have sustained CCD, as well as migratory beekeepers. Organic beekeepers do report CCD, as well as beekeepers who throw everything and the kitchen sink at their bees in attempts to control mites. Beekeepers with mite problems, out of control, experience CCD. Beekeepers with mites under control, or with almost a total absence of mites, also experience CCD. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 20:48:52 -0600 Reply-To: davehamilton@alltel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DaveHamilton Subject: Re: Dreamworks In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But why all the inaccuracies? Why all males bees, why describe them as all cousins/second cousins? Why make the beekeepers out to be dump jerks and the honey industry as a bunch of robber barons? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 05:42:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Royal Jelly May be Useful in Treating Neurological Disorders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Royal Jelly May be Useful in Treating Neurological Disorders Royal Jelly and Its Unique Fatty Acid, 10-Hydroxy-Trans-2-Decenoic Acid, Promote Neurogenesis by Neural Stem/Progenitor Cells In Vitro Biomedical Research, 2007; 28 (5):261-266 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/11/royal-jelly-may-be-useful-in-treating.html ...These observations suggest that RJ contains plural components that differently influence neuronal and/or glial lineages and that HDEA is one of such components of RJ that facilitates neurogenesis by NSCs. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:08:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Some small points In-Reply-To: <47453C66.7F92@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pesticide in pollen- Jerry pointed out that it has been found in pollen. But that is pesticide in general, so do not leap to specifics pesticides. He also has pointed out that just about everything in an area is picked up by bees and found in hives, including heavy metals, so pinning all on one thing brought in is not too scientific. Government regulations- AHB came into Maine in a generator packing crate from Brazil well before it even came close to central America. Plenty of regulations but the only thing that stopped any spread was the shipment came in the middle of winter which tends to slow down even native bees. Invasive species come into every country every year, for better of for worse in spite of all the government regs. To stop the spread, stop all travel and commerce (after we visit my son in Hawaii). CCD is spread by "migratory beekeepers". Maine gets 60,000 + colonies every year and so far no CCD has been found.Plenty of Varroa, Tracheal, SHB, AFB, EFB, KBV and every other XXB/V in the book, as well as "off spec" mite treatments but no CCD. Regulations will stop pests- Too often we do not know the pest until after it arrives and becomes one in the new location. No organic beekeepers suffer from CCD- check the original reports form Jerry and Almonds in California. CCD was not discriminatory. Turkeys are doomed like bees. Wild turkeys are in every state except Alaska and Hawaii and legally hunted since there are now so many of them. (Had to add that in keeping with the season and Yoon's comment.) I saw 25 walk in a nice tight line behind the house a year or so ago. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:12:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Proposed ban on GMO Corn in Europe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PARIS, Nov. 22 — European Union environmental officials have determined that two kinds of genetically modified corn could harm butterflies, affect food chains and disturb life in rivers and streams, and they have proposed a ban on the sale of the seeds, which are made by DuPont Pioneer, Dow Agrosciences and Syngenta. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/23/business/worldbusiness/23gene.html? _r=1&ref=science&oref=slogin Imagine this - a government that cares about insects and the environment instead of corporate profits. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:31:54 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Bee Movie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _Bee Movie_ (http://www.pluggedinonline.com/movies/movies/a0003488.cfm) **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:33:16 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: Dreamworks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/23/2007 4:41:16 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, davehamilton@ALLTEL.NET writes: But why all the inaccuracies? Why all males bees, why describe them as all cousins/second cousins? Why make the beekeepers out to be dump jerks and the honey industry as a bunch of robber barons? Like I called it Hollywood. All the bees was not male. So the genealogy of a hive is different. Explain it to a child who this movie will be seen by also. And we do call it robbing the hive. And we could look like that to the bees. But in the end we learned to get along. some notes from plugged in review.... Bee Movie is colorful, packed with positive messages and less predictable than your typical family tie-in. As for Seinfeld, the comedian's humor remains sharp, even if his nasally sketching wears thin by the final act. But a qualified Bee. **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:22:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Almer's Apiary Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Referenced statement from an earlier post: "Small hive beetle is definitely moved around by migratory beekeepers, as well as by the sale of packages and nucs. Nosema ceranae, on the other hand, could have been spread by the distribution of queen bees. Seriously, does anyone really think that by stopping the movement of bees, that these problems will go away?" ************************* Alabama has closed boarders relative to the inward movement of honeybees on the comb. We lag the four surrounding states by years on occurrences of new disease and other honeybee pest. We expected the Small Hive Beetle to move in from all sides and converge somewhere near the center. However, our first occurrence of SHB was quiet close to the center of the state. Alabama A&M University upon researching this phenomenon found that all new occurrences were near truck stops. It seems that no state is allowed to stop interstate transport on federal highways. I offer this information as a point of reference regarding the movement of honeybees and it's relationship to the spread of diseases. I can only conclude that the free movement of honeybee colonies does expedite the spread of honeybee problems. I do not wish to enter discussion as to whether or not a state should have the right to close boarders however in 2000, as president of the Alabama Beekeepers Association I did make several trips to our state capitol and did address the Alabama Legislature and convince them NOT to resend the "closed boarder" law. Bob Fanning North Alabama USA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:14:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: migratory beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Beekeeping in California Drastic County Ordinances > Ventura County has passed an ordinance that "all bees not bearing an inspector's certificate will be destroyed on arrival," while Imperial County Board says no more bees shall be brought into that county. It is rather laughable to read how some of our county boards are going to block the trade or kill it when it arrives. If every county in the State should pass an ordinance identical with that of Imperial County, there would soon be a condition that would be intolerable. Migratory beekeeping is a part of our modern-day progress -- has come to stay, and cannot be stopped by a few county boards. Such drastic ordinances, in my opinion , will hasten the day when we shall have a State law that will be effective without trying to prevent free movement ... Gleanings in Bee Culture. Mar. 15, 1912 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 19:07:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Proposed ban on GMO Corn in Europe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Brian Fredericksen wrote: >Imagine this - a government that cares about insects and the environment instead of corporate profits. I saw the article in the NY Times. Another example of lame reporting, and knee jerk reaction to inadequate information. The article states: > research this year indicates that larvae of the monarch butterfly exposed to the genetically modified corn "behave differently than other larvae." They NEVER give any indication who did this research, where, etc. I spent an hour this morning trying to find it, to no avail. I sure hope that public policy is based on something more substantial than unspecified research showing monarch caterpillars "behave differently". It's quite obvious that there is a large group of people who will latch onto anything that implicates Bt crops and are oblivious to the bulk of the evidence. I did find the study that they refer to later in the article: > recent research showing that consumption of genetically modified "corn byproducts reduced growth and increased mortality of nontarget stream insects" In this study they write: "we used laboratory feeding studies to examine the effects of Bt corn byproducts on selected aquatic insect taxa commonly found in headwater streams." Those of us who remember the original Bt/Monarch episode remember that the Cornell researchers found effects in the lab but that further studies failed to find the predicted effects in the field. > In response to the furor in the media and the public, a group of public and private scientists designed multi-faceted studies to answer questions about Bt corn pollen and the monarch butterfly. They published their findings as a group after rigorous scrutiny of their work by the scientific community. > Their scientific evidence shows that the risk to the monarch butterfly by Bt corn pollen is negligible. The steps taken by these scientists represent a model for risk assessment research of genetically modified plants. Further, the work represents an important example of allowing science to guide decision making. SEE: http://www.ars.usda.gov/sites/monarch/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:55:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Proposed ban on GMO Corn in Europe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit there are other variables then just science in developing public policy. values as simple as don't mess with Mother Nature are also valid public opinion. I applaud the Europeans in taking a stand against Big Ag. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:11:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Imadicloprid (was migratory beekeeping) In-Reply-To: <47463514.67E5@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Paul & All, > According to Bayer, only miniscule parts per billion traces of > imidacloprid accumulate in the nectar / pollen so visiting > bees and butterflies are not harmed even though they are > inherently more susceptible to insecticides compared to the > whiteflies, thrips, etc. Taken from apixinfosource.com- Background on Imadicloprid " other studies indicated that concentrations were especially high when the plant is young. These would often be: 10-20PPB in upper leaves 100-200 ppb in other leaves less than 1.5 ppb in nectar 2-3ppb in pollen Bayer ( in court proceedings in France) then agreed that imadicloprid may cause disorentation of bees at levels above 20parts per billion. Studies by researchers at the Institut National de la Recherche Agronomique (NRA) suggest that BEE BEEHAVIOR IS affected at levels between 3-16 ppb or possibly even 0.5 ppb. source: http;//apixinfosource.com/index.php?option=com-content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=51 bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:19:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Imadicloprid (was migratory beekeeping) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > 10-20PPB in upper leaves > 100-200 ppb in other leaves > less than 1.5 ppb in nectar > 2-3ppb in pollen > Bayer ( in court proceedings in France) then agreed > that imadicloprid may cause disorentation of bees at > levels above 20 parts per billion. > > Studies by researchers at the Institut National de la > Recherche Agronomique (NRA) suggest that BEE > BEEHAVIOR IS affected at levels between 3-16 ppb or > possibly even 0.5 ppb. Bob, the NRA study did not say 3-16 ppm caused disorentation of bees. The study only "suggested" 3-16 ppm caused unspecified behavioral effects. This NRA study also sounds like it was a lab study. Lab studies commonly have little or no relevance to actual field conditions. I do tend to agree with you that the "bathtub" type varroa treatments some beeks use might be capable of bringing on CCD like symptoms and I would further suggest they might also be capable of stopping ants, moths, beetles, flies and healthy honeybees from robbing. That's why I think pesticide residue screening might quickly and inexpensively tell us whether or not the honey / pollen in the comb of CCD affected hives is contaminated with more than miniscule trace amounts of any particular pesticide (such as the miticides used to control varroa). Practical example: If pesticide screening revealed only barely detectable single digit parts per BILLION amounts of several common ag chemicals in the honey / pollen of CCD affective hives, where robbing insects are also absent, but parts per MILLION quantities of one or more varroa miticides then we could say: "Wow that's probably the chemical that's stopping the robbing and may have also caused the CCD". Conversely, if no large concentration of any pesticide is found in the honey / pollen of CCD affected hives where robbing insects are also absent, then we can probably rule out pesticide contamination as the factor that's stopping the robbing. I have a hard time imagining how any "natural" chemical produced in a CCD affected hive (e.g. a chemical produced by an active fungus in the CCD hive) could stop the robbing, because normally fungal growths and molds in food products are associated with INCREASED insect feeding activity. Example: moldy dried fruits, nuts and grains are especially susceptible to attack by ants, moths, beetles (not the reverse). Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 02:05:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Fanning wrote: “I can only conclude that the free movement of honeybee colonies does expedite the spread of honeybee problems.” Assuming your conclusion is correct, and I have no reason to doubt it, I wonder if there is a way to determine how much economic benefit Alabama has gained or lost by taking this approach. Certainly some beekeepers will feel that they have benefited by not having to deal with some problems for some extra amount of time. Some of these and others may feel that they might have been able to benefit by being able to ship their bees out for pollination and bring them back for winter or for valuable flows. It may have been done, or it may be worth doing, an analysis of what has been saved over what may have been lost by this approach. Questions that would need to be answered include how many seasons free of the various pests have been gained, what are the additional costs associated with having to deal with each pest or, perhaps more realistically, the incremental accumulation of pests. What costs have been incurred in enforcement? Was there or would there have been interest on the part of some Alabama beekeepers in moving hives out of and back into the state for pollination or to gain additional honey crops, and if so what kind of income might this activity have brought into the state? There are certainly other parameters I am not thinking of right now that would contribute to a cost benefit analysis of the whole approach. It might also be worth looking at how having Alabama’s neighboring states take this same position would effect the situation for Alabama beekeepers or for Alabamans in general. There are a lot of things to consider, and I can imagine Alabama looked at this fairly carefully when they created this statute and again when they reaffirmed it. A lot of times it is the squeaky wheel that gets the grease in matters of legislation, but it is not always clear that the greatest good is served for the greatest number. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 05:29:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Honey as the New 'Silver' Dressing in Wound Care MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Honey as the New 'Silver' Dressing in Wound Care By Sylvie Hampton, The Journal of Community Nursing (UK), November 2007, Volume 21, Issue 11 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/11/honey-as-new-silver-dressing-in-wound.html ...Although honey has been used since ancient times some practitioners still hesitate to apply honey for treatment of wounds and some clinicians are under the impression that there is little or no evidence to support the use of honey as a wound dressing although positive findings on honey in wound care are widely reported. Honey has been shown to give good results on a very wide range of types of wounds and it is therefore mystifying that there appears to be a lack of universal acceptance of honey as a wound dressing... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:29:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: dreamworks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) >But why all the inaccuracies? I was upset with the portrayal of bees beekeeping & pollination. I thought they could of had some fun with facts that were closer to reality than they did. Perhaps it shows the ignorance of "media " america to farming and specifically to beekeeping. I know many of you have seen or found the "why Honey is not Vegan" site. At one point many years ago it was a point of contention on Bee- l. see: >http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm<. I swear the writers for the bee movie ( probably not having a clue about bees started with a web search & bumped into this site which was subsequently used for some of the materal. They may have pulled their ideas of beekeepers from it! It is interesting that some added pages by >Noah Lewis vegetus@vegetus.org < show that he is growing up & seeing that his very specific view of a few years ago does include the possibility that more is happening out there. An interesting read here as is that this is the other side of the coin. Not everyone is a bee hugger! Mike ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:50:46 -0000 Reply-To: rrudd@eircom.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would have though that this statement was axiomatic: consider the spread of varroa throughout the world and how the incidence would be found to have jumped continents and jumped over countries. or even within countries: I first found varroa in my colonies when the nearest reported incidence was over 50 miles away! If you allowed for natural transmission the rate of spread would be no more than 6 miles per year. Ruary -----Original Message----- Bob Fanning wrote: “I can only conclude that the free movement of honeybee colonies does expedite the spread of honeybee problems.” To which Steve Noble replied "Assuming your conclusion is correct, and I have no reason to doubt it, Steve Noble" ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:19:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Imadicloprid (was migratory beekeeping) In-Reply-To: <4747C27B.F09@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Paul & All, I love civil discussion on BEE-I (as do most members in my opinion) Thanks! I am going to go a bit further than most beekeepers would go in a public forum but feel we need to go there for better understanding of an area little spoke of except in meeting hallways. My point in posting both sides is for members to get a feel for the way the issue went down in France. Bayer lawyers and researcher/beekeepers. 120,000 documented dead hives. This NRA study also sounds like it was a lab > study. Lab studies commonly have little or no relevance to actual > field conditions. Excellent point! I think pertands to CCD lab research as well. Think about what Dr. Caron said at his presentations several attended from BEE-L (and myself at the MSBA meeting). Researchers have so far not been able to produce CCD symptoms in lab conditions. > > I do tend to agree with you that the "bathtub" type varroa > treatments some beeks use might be capable of bringing on > CCD like symptoms I don't think I ever said the above was the problem but could be in a small number of CCD cases. Unlike most likely 95% of the list I know what these treatments consist of (as does Randy Oliver in my opinion). Most of these are made from chemicals which were *registered* for use on bees the world over. Only now perhaps applied in gels or patties but still chemicals which use and their contamination of wax (PPM) is well documented. Some of these concoctions and methods of application have came from researchers (off the record) trying to help beekeepers. Their illegal use has been going on for decades. Jeff Pettis reported at several meetings I attended that a single use of fluvalinate had the same contamination as repeated use. The USDA-ARS in my opinion looked at but discounted early in the CCD issue that high concentrations of fluvalinate or even amatraz caused CCD. Shop towels and wooden sticks were used by the USDA-ARS in their research of chemicals for varroa. I am not condoning their use but rather trying to say blaming a cause for CCD without *proof* does the industry little good! In my *opinion* the USDA-ARS does not believe the current CCD issue is caused by missuse of fluvalinate or amatraz by beekeepers (personal conversation) The two most common will NOT repel bees from robbing. The varroa handbook published by Larry Conner (1988) listed all the known chemicals which would in some form kill varroa. For the most part beekeepers the world around are still trying to use the top five chemicals. In the fall of last year I observed hives said to be CCD.( Hundreds of hives). I personally could not find a cause for these hives problems using all my resources. These hives were dwindling and would not take feed. Those which did not die over the winter would not take feed in spring. Around May these hives finally came to life and started normal expansion for the beekeepers. Robbing for the most part did not happen in both fall and spring but these yards of bees seemed not interested in feed. The timing of last years CCD in the north is a time little problems (robbing) happen to deadouts in the field. The not removing feed from feeders and storing in the hives suggested to me either a problem with the HFCS or the bees themselves. Experiments with removing the untouched feed and replacing with fresh HFCS or succrose did not solve the problem. It was like the bees were disorientated or had a honey stomach ache. When in fall a strong colony will not touch syrup when the weather is warm, nothing blooming for the bees to work and plenty of room to store in comb the problem suggests a problem with the bees themselves. Fresh pollen was in short supply except for pesticide treated seed corn. The bees were packing in large amount of the corn pollen (like they do when other pollen is not available). We checked the empty seed bags labels for several areas (where possible) and all the label said was "pesticide treated seed" and the chemical was not listed. > (such as the miticides used to control > varroa). Jeff Pettis has been asked many times this question at national bee meetings i have attended. Jeff said many times the only time they have found huge amounts of other than normal amounts of a registered for bee chemical (fluvalinate or amatraz) has been with off label use of the choumaphos product which would only be used by an idiot as the product is too low a conocentration to effect control when used on a strip and when sprayed in a hive kills bees and puts around 38 ppb of the product in wax. Jeff Pettis has spoken on the subject in many of his presentations on the subject. One such case happened in Florida in a case the USDA-ARS looked at and is the only case I am aware of. The beekeeper which killed his bees and later had to replace all his comb kind of helped the industry as word spread fast that using the liquid choumaphos product would not work! chemicals in the honey / pollen of CCD affective hives, where > robbing insects are also absent, but parts per MILLION quantities > of one or more varroa miticides then we could say: "Wow that's > probably the chemical that's stopping the robbing and may have > also caused the CCD". David Hackenberg ( personal conversation) and myself believe chemicals caused many of the last fall die offs ( and the blackened tracheal and blown out tubules or bee kidneys are the result). I do not believe these bees died from off label use of chemicals which have been used for decades around the world to control varroa. Jeff pettis and others would have quickly spotted if was so. We suspect the new chemicals released since 2003 in the U.S.. When seasrching for a CCD answer you have to ask yourself "Whats different today" and one answer would be the new nicotine based pesticides. True they are sold in seventy countries and also true as many have posted on BEE-L actual CCD symptom hives are only a small part of claimed CCD deadouts but what about in the future. > I have a hard time imagining how any "natural" chemical > produced in a CCD affected hive (e.g. a chemical produced > by an active fungus in the CCD hive) could stop the robbing, Me to! I always felt the fungus as a cause for CCD was a stretch but led the list for causes for awhile. Even the use of OA led the race for causes for awhile but many of us could not make the connection. OA use is common worldwide ( although not registered for use in the U.S. as OA is in Canada but for the most part little interest in getting registered if *money* is involved as the chances of getting caught using OA on a hive is very very small). bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:39:34 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: dreamworks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Bee Movie is a fun movie to go see. It was meant to entertain children and Adult alike. I recommend seeing it for just that. For educational reasons I suggest watching "Tales from the Hive" or Silence of the Bees" on public TV. It was a Fun movie to watch. Russ Dean **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:36:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Otis's article on CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On another thread Bob wrote: > I love civil discussion on BEE-I (as do most members in my opinion) > Thanks! I second that! When posts are heated and abusive, many members just hit the delete key. Uncivil discourse also prevents many from sharing what might be useful information. As a great example of such civil analysis, the article in the new ABJ, "Comments About Colony Collapse Disorder" by Dr Gard Otis is perhaps the most reasoned summary that I've seen to date. He suggests that the factors that caused "CCD" in one area may be different than those that caused it in another. This certainly fits my observations, and those of others on this List. In my opinion, this does not detract from all the excellent work done by researchers in their quest to "solve" CCD. Each in their own avenues of inquiry have added greatly to the state of knowledge of bee health and disease issues. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 13:29:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rury Rudd writes: “I first found varroa in my colonies when the nearest reported incidence was over 50 miles away! If you allowed for natural transmission the rate of spread would be no more than 6 miles per year.” Rury, The exact axiom that you are trying to show here is not exactly clear to me. If it is that moving bees results in moving their pathogens, then yes that is obvious. Could you describe what you mean by “natural transmission rate” and how you arrived at 6 miles per year for that? Certainly we know that even if we stop moving bees, bees will not stop moving. How long did it take for the varroa you found in your colonies to travel the 50 miles? Or did those varroa come from a source much further away by unnatural means? Does anyone have the figures for how fast AHB has expanded its territory since its introduction? Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:10:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Imadicloprid (was migratory beekeeping) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: >Unlike most likely 95% of the list I know what these treatments consist of I assure you that plenty of people know about this; not many want to talk about it publicly though. I don't. > I always felt the fungus as a cause for CCD was a stretch but led the list for causes for awhile. Yes, well maybe you should read a little about Aflatoxins (naturally occurring mycotoxins that are produced by many species of Aspergillus) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:06:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Steve Noble wrote: >Rury, The exact axiom that you are trying to show here is not exactly clear >to me. If it is that moving bees results in moving their pathogens, then >yes that is obvious. The whole issue is a non-starter. If a stationary beekeeper wanted to make a case against interstate bee movement, he would have to prove 1) that he would somehow benefit from the non-movement of bees and that 2) his benefit is so significant that it would outweigh the damage to the migratory beekeepers AND to the rest of us who are served by those same beekeepers. If it could be shown that a given pathogen would work its way through the bee population even if bees were not transported and regardless of quarantines then his case evaporates. If it could be shown that his group's economic impact in slight in comparison to that of the much larger group (migratory beekeepers and people who benefit from their services), then his case is null. > Following the find of a single varroa mite in Maryland in 1979, the Division of Plant Industry and H.L. Cromroy, University of Florida, made an inspection of Florida bees in 1984. The varroa mite was not found at that time, but in 1987 it was detected in Wisconsin and Florida. It remains unknown how or when the varroa mite was introduced into the continental U.S.A. In Florida, the varroa mite has been found on flower feeding-insects Bombus pennsylvanicus, Palpada vinetorum, and Phanaeus vindex. Although the varroa mite cannot reproduce on other insects, its presence on them may be a means by which it spreads short distances. VARROA RULE--WHAT HAPPENED? The proposed Varroa rule published in the Federal Register on March 16, 1989 was abruptly withdrawn by APHIS on April 13. According to Dr. Eric Mussen, the following is his analysis of what really happened: > APHIS was very much involved in the northern and central California medfly eradication program and the Africanized bee eradication program around Bakersfield a few years ago. So why are the bee mite problems different? > In simplest terms, the beekeeping industry is too mobile to control. That statement may not be accepted by long time honey producers and noncommercial beekeepers who keep their hives on a single location 12 months of the year. That type of beekeeper requested protection from having mites brought into their areas and the state regulatory personnel are doing their best to provide protection. But the bigger picture involves the need for honey bees in commercial crop pollination. While a few states, like California, have much greater demands for bees than most other states, some commercial pollination occurs in all states. > The source of the bees is the interesting part of the story. Communications that I have had with people in eastern states suggest that out-of-state, migratory beekeepers provide pollination services in many states where there are more than enough "local" bees in the neighborhood to get the job done. The resident beekeepers simply have neither the equipment nor the desire to move their hives to the orchards. Since our agricultural industry, nationwide, depends so heavily on highly migratory beekeeping operations, it proved to be impossible to regulate the spread of the mites by quarantine and eradication. > So the intended regulations are history, and it is obvious that the federal government probably will stay out of the bee pest and disease eradication business from now on. Remember that it is the state of destination (or states that are passed through to get there) and not the state of origin of a load of bees that determines the critera for letting out-of-state bees into that state. It is up to the regulatory personnel in the state of origin to certify the bees using the state of destination's criteria. sources creatures.ifas.ufl.edu/misc/bees/varroa_mite.htm APIS Volume 7, Number 6, June 1989, M.T. Sanford ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:07:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 24-Nov-07, at 2:05 AM, Steve Noble wrote: > > It may have been done, or it may be worth doing, an analysis > of what > has been saved over what may have been lost by this approach. > Questions > that would need to be answered include how many seasons free of the > various > pests have been gained, what are the additional costs associated with > having to deal with each pest or, perhaps more realistically, the > incremental accumulation of pests. What costs have been incurred in > enforcement? Was there or would there have been interest on the > part of > some Alabama beekeepers in moving hives out of and back into the > state for > pollination or to gain additional honey crops, and if so what kind of > income might this activity have brought into the state? > Hi Steve Bob and all Coming from Canada makes me an expert on putting decisions off until we have all the facts. This qualification allows me to say: "do it now before its too late then change it later if the decision needs tweeking". If all the surrounding states and the feds are reminded of the effectiveness of closures, even for a short time, they might get the idea and act. Bob says that Alabama has delayed several problems, some for years. Canada had a closed border for many years (Jim really liked it!!!!) to all honey bees from the mainland USA initially because of TM but extended because of varroa etc. Some areas in Canada still don't have Varroa. We have not found SHB yet in Ontario even though varroa and TM came across the border fairly quickly. The border is still closed to bees on comb but queens are allowed. NZ and Oz are experts on introduced pests and are now enforcing strict restrictions on importation of agricultural products. I have previously said, on this list, how impressed I was with the knowledge of the customs officials in NZ when we visited. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:17:39 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Proposed ban on GMO Corn in Europe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Those of us who remember the original Bt/Monarch episode remember that the Cornell researchers found effects in the lab but that further studies failed to find the predicted effects in the field. Why were the results different? How was the design of the study changed? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:20:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Otis's article on CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would second Bob Harrisons and Randy Olivers comments on keeping discussions as civil as possible. As i have stated earlier, this forum(and other beels in my association) has helped to cut years off my learning curve. Happy Thanksgiving to all John Horton N. Alabama USA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 22:32:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Proposed ban on GMO Corn in Europe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Why were the results different? How was the design of the study changed? You can read all about it at: http://www.ars.usda.gov/sites/monarch/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 06:27:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: USA: 1st International Symposium on Honey and Human Health MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII USA: 1st International Symposium on Honey and Human Health http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/11/usa-1st-international-symposium-on.html The 1st International Symposium on Honey and Human Health features scientists, researchers and physicians from around the world presenting studies that underscore the role of honey as a functional food providing healthful benefits when consumed regularly. .. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:41:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Honey as the New 'Silver' Dressing in Wound Care In-Reply-To: <20071124052913.84d281a5f2f7df0ef38485a84124037d.e6de5320f1.wbe@email.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit C Hooper wrote: > > Honey has been shown to give good results on a very wide range of types > of wounds and it is therefore mystifying that there appears to be a lack > of universal acceptance of honey as a wound dressing... As one who has twice used honey for wound dressing under a Doctor's observation (after my hand operations), I think the reason is simple- application. Unless you know what you are doing and are dedicated to doing it correctly, the use of honey is a pain compared to ointments and other antibiotic commercial medications, such as Neosporin or its cheaper clones. Honey does more than them and heals faster, but think about the difference of containing the honey over the wound, extensive dressing, more changes of dressing, and the mess of seeping honey sticking to everything in the universe and one can easily prefer the quick, easy and cheap alternative. I did add cheap, because even though the honey may be free, the additional dressings are not. Neosporin may not even require a dressing for some wounds. And almost all drug stores sell the clone for half or less the price. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:06:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Proposed ban on GMO Corn in Europe In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter gave the butterfly link. Here is the study that caused the concern; http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-10/iu-ssg100807.php Note that it follows the butterfly study since it is a lab study using leaves, not pollen, and they do not find the same results in the field. Also, those involved in the study seem to have an agenda, but what is new there. One would think that BT sprayed corn (approved for organic growers) would have a greater run-off problem than the small amounts in pollen. Would be nice to see a study on that. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:14:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Steve Noble wrote: > Does anyone have the figures for how fast AHB has expanded its territory since its introduction? * Bees were brought from Africa to Brazil in 1956 by prominent Brazilian scientist, Warwick Estevam Kerr. By 1970 the super-aggressive African bees had blanketed Brazil, totally replacing local colonies. They reached Central America by 1980, Mexico by 1986, and Texas by 1990, having conquered 5 million square miles in 33 years. In the process they killed an estimated 1,000 people and over 100,000 cows. The first American to be killed, a rancher named Lino Lopez, died of multiple stings in Texas in 1993. (source: Dr. George B. Johnson, Biology Professor at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri 63130) A map is at: http://www.txtwriter.com/Onscience/OSpictures/killerbees.jpg -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:12:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Carroll Subject: indications of swarming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi All, I am relatively new to beekeeping and have a couple of basic questions for the group. The first question is how do you tell if a colony has swarmed, if you are not near the hives to check them frequently, or perhaps see them swarm? I assume that if you mark your queens, and upon subsequent investigation, an unmarked queen is found in the hive, and the population of bees is smaller than it was, that this is indication enough. Does anybody have other observations than this? Thank you. Brian Carroll ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:18:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Carroll Subject: indications of honey flow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Everyone, Another of my basic beekeeping questions. I was wondering how you tell if a honey flow is on? I assume that if you are knowledgeable about the major honey plants in your area, and see them blooming, that this is the best indicator. Are there indications in the hive, other than there being more nectar in the cells than the last time you checked? Thank you. Brian Carroll ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:25:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Meanwhile, down in Florida MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Meanwhile, down in Florida ... > Africanized bees, called killer bees because of the dramatic death they can inflict, have become the dominant wild bee in Florida, say state officials. "These are mean bees," said Jerry Hayes, chief apiary inspector for the state Department of Agriculture. "And it's not going to get better. It's going to get worse." Two years ago the department recommended that all wild bees be exterminated. > But now beekeepers are divided - with some ignoring the call to exterminate - saying they're in the midst of the biggest crisis their profession has ever seen. "It's a double-edged sword," said Dade City beekeeper David Hackenberg. "I understand why you would be concerned about public safety. Unfortunately, we need these bees." > Jeff McChesney, a Gulfport pest exterminator and bee enthusiast, has helped place a dozen wild bee hives with beekeepers struggling to rebuild their devastated colonies. "I have people from as far as the state of Oregon who are willing to drive here once a month to get our bees because they are collapsing elsewhere," he said. But last month the state warned him about the risks. "I'm kind of at a standstill now," he said. "I don't know if we should kill them or save the bees." excerpted for review purposes from KILLER BEES RULE IN FLORIDA St. Petersburg Times - St. Petersburg, Fla. Author: CRISTINA SILVA Date: Oct 3, 2007 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:11:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Proposed ban on GMO Corn in Europe In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You can read all about it at: > > http://www.ars.usda.gov/sites/monarch/ I think this site should be a must read for all beekeepers. Also the research was mostly paid for by big ag. Mainly because the USDA-ARS lacks funding for such projects and the end purpose of the research was do get the EPA on Oct. 16, 2001 to extend the registration of BT corn. I am very familiar with the research as I watched with interest as I have concerns over BT pollen and honeybees. What should be considered as you read the USDA-ARS above site is the fact that honeybees in my opinion are more susceptible to problems from BT pollen that the Monarch caterpillar. Especially in drought years when no other pollen is available. The above research makes a point which may pertain to Monarch caterpillars but certainly does not apply to honeybees. The above research says the window for pollen problems is around a week for Monarchs and is effected by rain. I agree with the rain part but with honey bees (especially in drought) the bees gather the pollen all day long and bring back to the hive. The researchers in the research ( also the research presented to the EPA to help get the 2001 registration ) tend to only present the hypothesis that the pollen does not cause a problem for reasons other than saying the truth which is if Monarch caterpillars or honeybee larva are fed mostly on BT pollen the pollen can and does cause problems. In my area BT corn use is most of the corn. Also cattle country. With field corn the corn pollen is with the plant for more than a week. Takes 120 days for field corn to be ready to combine. Also I see bees in fields after combining getting the pollen. A certain amount of the pollen goes into the storage bins with the corn. I have a bulk feed bin on my farm and unfortunately am forced to feed GMO corn to my livestock ( as I have not been able to find a source of non GMO corn other than a long way off organic supplier). When pollen is in short supply the bees visit my livestock feeders picking up pollen. At times I get calls from the poultry people abut my bees being a nuisance in their corn feeders. I do not believe researchers would argue that bees do not pack in corn pollen when other sources are not available as about every beekeeper which has been around a chicken feeder in spring has seen the bees picking out the pollen dust. In * my opinion* bees are greater effected by BT corn pollen than Monarch butterflies. I am not saying BT corn pollen is the cause of CCD but do believe that the BT pollen does raise health concerns for honeybees. The reason being that non BT pollen does not harm Monarch caterpillars or bee larva and not disputed by researchers (even in the above study) BT pollen does. I lost my best stud animal this year. The vet could not find a problem. I lost five of my best breeding stock a few years back. I sent two remains to MU for study. The cause of their death was not found. The only thing which was told to me was that since BT corn has come into livestock feed more of the these cases are happening. Shortened life span. I recommend the GMO Trilogy sold at health food stores for further reading. Especially the documented stories of Farmers in the Midwest seeing livestock problems from feeding GMO corn. Enough said! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:24:33 -0500 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Meanwhile down in Florida... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline So, Dave Hackenberg is quoted as saying he 'needs Africanized bees'. Dave pollinates in New York, where we have a regulation authorizing the Inspection Service to kill bees found to be agressive (not requiring that they be killed, but authorizing them to be killed (if necessary). He also pollinates in Maine, where the State Inspector has long felt that some hives brought in for pollination are so agressive they seem to be Africanized. Is it responsible to pick up wild swarms that are likely to be Africanized? -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:32:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey as the New 'Silver' Dressing in Wound Care In-Reply-To: <47497BA3.40501@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have been reluctant to post my experience due to skeptics but I will. Missouri has a huge population of Brown recluse spiders. No known cure says the medical community. Huge scars are normal and many times the volcano core feeds all the way to the persons bone! The site usually gets red and about the size of a quarter with a small (at times not so small) volcano type opening which has puss. I have seen many of these sites but until this year never had a bite myself. The farm cure for such bites dates back to pioneer times in the Ozarks. Make a bandage with honey and change twice a day. The honey will disappear between changes and if you do not put enough honey on the site the puss will start to come back. In about a week the site will heal and all will be left is a small scar where the site was. My bite was on my back and I will be happy to show all the tiny scar at a bee meeting for the skeptics. The hypothesis is the venom feeds on the carbs of the honey instead of you. I called my doctor before beginning my treatment and the nurse said all the doctor would do is give me a script for antibiotics. She said the bite had to run its course and the site could be filled with puss for around six weeks. Glad I chose the Ozark remedy! have others on the list heard of using honey to treat a recluse bite? bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:06:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Proposed ban on GMO Corn in Europe In-Reply-To: <20071124.151739.17338.1@webmail08.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Why were the results different? How was the design of the study changed? In the original "research", monarch caterpillars were fed a steady diet of the Bt pollen. But in the real world, not only does the corn not produce pollen at the same time the caterpillars are feeding on adjacent milkweed, but even if it did they would not be consuming anywhere near the levels the lab subjects were fed. Unfortunately, our media thrive on doom and gloom, so while the initial "sky-is-falling" reports were broadcast far and wide, the subsequent refutation was largely ignored. Eugene Makovec Kirkwood, MO USA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:10:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Meanwhile, down in Florida In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter and all: How will this effect how perception is about AHBs by the way, not that I haven't been saying this for years in the Saga I did? But Bill just posted this over on the OrganicBeekeepers list so thought you might like to read it here. For you see bees are bees and rule of thumb always has been, if it is hot requeen it and to me the birds and the bees are free and always will be. Happy reading, but how will it fit with what Florida is doing? Dee Now from Bill posted today: FWIW. I'm not qualified to judge that, and I'm not ashamed to say so. http://researchnews.wsu.edu/physical/149.html Honey Bee Genome Project Reveals Possible African Origin of All Honey Bees An international consortium of researchers announced this week that it has finished sequencing the entire genome -- all the DNA -- of the honey bee. Washington State University entomologist Walter S. (Steve) Sheppard, a member of the sequencing team, also co-authored a study that strongly suggests that honey bees originated in Africa and spread to Europe and Asia during at least two major migratory periods during their history. ...The honey bee genome results appear in this week's issue of the journal Nature, and the report on honey bee origins appears in this week's issue of Science magazine. ..."It's a huge amount of data, and the statistical basis for how to analyze it is in the developmental stages," said Sheppard. ...By looking at more than 1000 SNPs in the DNA of each of hundreds of individual bees, the researchers were able to develop a distinctive DNA profile for bees from each region. ...Sheppard said the traditional view of honey bee origins held that they first arose in western Asia, the area comprising current-day Turkey, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzistan, and migrated from there to Europe and Africa. Among the surprising results of the new analysis was that the type of honey bee common to northern and western Europe is more closely related to modern-day African honey bees than to its geographical neighbors in central Europe. Such discoveries led the researchers to conclude that honey bees probably originated in Africa and migrated into Asia and Europe on at least two different occasions. After hundreds of thousands of years in their new homes, with no interbreeding among the populations in different areas, they evolved into today's subspecies whose DNA is unique enough that the SNP analysis can tell to which group they belong.The researchers also examined honey bees captured at various sites in the U.S. They found that the SNP analysis could track the invasion of "Africanized" bees, which have both European and African subspecies in their pedigree. * All honey bees in the Americas are relative newcomers, Sheppard said. Human settlers first brought western European subspecies in 1622. A Mediterranean subspecies was imported in the mid-1800s, and an African subspecies was brought to Brazil in 1956. *[My emphasis for those skimming only--note that is HUMAN settlers, not HUHMAN :) ] Regards, Bill [only] Huhman ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:16:16 -0000 Reply-To: rrudd@eircom.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -----Original Message----- Steve Nobel says "The exact axiom that you are trying to show here is not exactly clear to me. If it is that moving bees results in moving their pathogens, then yes that is obvious." Yes that is my understanding of the statement made by Bob Fanning when he wrote: “I can only conclude that the free movement of honeybee colonies does expedite the spread of honeybee problems.” and which you said that were inclined to accept. I then gave the example of varroa which spread throughout the world was enabled by the movement of bees which had been infected with the mite. This spread jumped countries in its spread. I further pointed out that in Ireland varroa mites were found in a colony some 50 miles away from the nearest known source of infested bees. I made the assumption of 6 miles per year as being the distance an infested swarm might travel before settling down. The fact that there are heather plants both erica and ling nearby might have accounted for a more rapid transport of the mite, or a more likely probability was the purchase of colonies from infested areas. AHB is a different scenario as I understand that colonies from a swarm will swarm again within the same year Ruary ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:06:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Proposed ban on GMO Corn in Europe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here's another example of pesticide impact research conducted by a beginning assistant professor that was not fully relevant to actual field conditions: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-04/uopm-rhl040105.php "assistant professor of biology Rick Relyea found that Roundup®, the second most commonly applied herbicide in the United States, is "extremely lethal" to amphibians.... and the results may provide a key link to global amphibian declines." The anti-GMO groups announced: "Monsanto's Roundup Killing Frogs, Amphibians Worldwide" http://www.rense.com/general67/mons.htm But what all these alarming reports and websites fail to mention is that frogs continue to be abundant in exactly the areas where Roundup is used the most heavily: around the Roundup Ready corn, soybean and cotton fields of the Midwest USA. Frogs like this one http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/frogb.jpg were so abundant last summer in southern Minnesota and Iowa I estimated the density to be up to one frog per two square yards of Roundup Ready crop margin. I also observed frogs in abundance recently around the margins of Roundup Ready cotton in western Texas. Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:39:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, The state of Alabama is not a state with a lot of monocroping that needs to be pollinated or that produces an abundant amount of nectar. Therefore bees in large numbers are not needed necessarily. Cotton will produce about 10-15% greater yield with bees as proven by studies at Alabama A & M University. Cotton is a large crop in North AL. Crops in Alabama that need bees are strawberries, apples. peaches, pumpkins, watermelons, cantaloupes, and probably some I have not named. Some orchard owners have their own bees and some rent. I rent some to people that stay in the same place all year. I cannot speak for the people in South Alabama that raise watermelon type crops, but in North Alabama we have some, not as many as years ago, feral bees that help local farmers. We have beeks in towns that have bees on other people's property because they do cannot keep bees at home. I cannot keep bees at my house because my wife is very allergic to bees. Almost lost her once. Can't afford to take another chance. I have bees in several places around that stay all year. Some move bees from one area to another within about 30 or 40 miles radius. This does not cause much problem as far as spreading disease and pests. Most pests just get there some way on their own. Lionel N. Ala. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:48:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Meanwhile, down in FL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter provided a quote from Dave Hackenberg: "It's a double-edged sword," said Dade City beekeeper David Hackenberg. "I understand why you would be concerned about public safety. Unfortunately, we need these bees." I may be wrong but I think this illustrates the danger of taking something out of context. I can't imagine the man to be referring to any specific bees. i.e. Florida bees. Rather, I believe the intent to be that we need the bloodlines of another race of bees to create resistance to disease. One can't give European bees away in Brazil and they still have an industry. McChesney used up his credibility on another list. Don't bring him in here. He tries to provoke attention. Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:06:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Meanwhile down in Florida... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd Spear: > in New York, where we have a regulation authorizing the Inspection Service to kill bees found to be agressive (not requiring that they be killed, but authorizing them to be killed (if necessary). I am sure that as you re-read this, you will think, "that's not exactly clear". The way the NYS Law is written, it is illegal to keep African Bees, but nobody would be forced to destroy bees just because they're mean. By the way, anyone can kill their own bees, if they think it's necessary. I found an extremely mean one this summer, and the procedure is: Send a sample to have it analyzed. If the Bee Lab says it's African, then the beekeeper is supposed to destroy the bees with an Apiary Inspector there to see that it is done correctly and they don't move the hive into the woods somewhere. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:45:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Meanwhile, down in FL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Marron wrote: >I may be wrong but I think this illustrates the danger of taking something >out of context. I can't imagine the man to be referring to any specific >bees. i.e. Florida bees. Rather, I believe the intent to be that we need >the bloodlines of another race of bees to create resistance to disease. Maybe. I was pretty surprised that he seemed to be siding with the crowd that wants to save the wild African Bees in Florida. But don't blame me. If anyone is at fault for creative editing it's the author of the piece: http://www.sptimes.com/2007/10/03/State/Killer_bees_now_rule_.shtml ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:42:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Proposed ban on GMO Corn in Europe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > I am not saying BT corn pollen is the cause of CCD but do > believe that the BT pollen does raise health concerns for > honeybees. Bob, what specific bee health concerns do you have about BT corn pollen? Earlier this year Galen P. Diveley at the University of Maryland (a researcher who also had previous experience evaluating the effects of BT corn on the monarch butterfly) published an article: "Bt corn cleared in Colony Collapse Disorder" http://www.americanfarm.com/TopStory5.01.07f.html Excerpts: "The endotoxins currently expressed in Bt corn (Cry1 types against caterpillars; Cry3 types against beetles) are not biologically active against hymenopteran insects such as the honey bee, nor do the CCD symptoms resemble those expected in Bt intoxicated organisms. Exposure is also very low because the expression of endotoxins in pollen is barely detectable in most Bt corn hybrids and corn does not produce nectar. For these reasons, bees are not commonly found foraging in corn fields." Numerous laboratory studies have examined the potential non-target effects of Bt corn on honey bees by feeding high doses of the pollen or purified endotoxin mixed with honey or sugar syrup directly to larvae in brood cells. Published studies and other technical reports submitted to EPA have all shown no adverse acute effects. In particular, recent laboratory studies in New Zealand and Switzerland exposed bees by feeding on pollen treated with purified Cry1 endotoxins at doses considered well above the maximum environmental exposure levels encountered in the field. Results showed no negative effects on bee survival. Laboratory feeding studies at the University of Maryland also showed no effects on the weight and survival of honey bees feeding on Cry1Ab-expressing sweet corn pollen for 35 days. A two-year field study (soon to be published in the European bee journal Apidologie) conducted by this author and his graduate student represents the first attempt to expose functional colonies of honey bees to Bt corn pollen under open field conditions. In this Maryland study, colonies placed in Bt sweet corn plots were allowed to forage on corn pollen and also fed Bt pollen cakes for 28 days. The pollen cake consumption alone represented approximately 44 percent of the expected daily pollen requirements of each exposed hive. Results showed no adverse effects on bee weight, foraging activity, colony bee strength and brood development. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:06:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit seems silly to me to even debate if moving bees spreads problems, how else did varrora and SHB get from Asia and Africa all over the world in a very short time? Peter argues its for the good of the people. That may have been the case at one time but as the transfer time of problems speeds up around the globe how many more pests and disease can the honeybee tolerate? When I hear people Like Pettis, Spivak, and Munsen say that honeybees are under stress, I take it to be stress from frequent movement and increased spread of pest and disease etc. Anything that causes stress is THE problem. I feel we have to look at what's happening since 2000 and find new ways to mitigate the problems. Saying that migratory beekeeping will never change and show me the data is just dragging your feet as Rome burns. We need leadership and vision not stonewalling and SSDD in the bee industry. Peter I sense you feel science will solve all of the problems we face now and in the future? or do you have other suggestions to help the plight of the honeybee? You poo poo any ideas of restrictions so what's your solution then? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:24:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Honey as the New 'Silver' Dressing in Wound Care Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison Wrote: "Glad I chose the Ozark remedy! have others on the list heard of using honey to treat a recluse bite?" Bob, although I am a classic skeptic, I give a lot of weight to someone’s first hand experience. A few years ago I had some kind of bite on my leg that would not heal and the sore just kept getting worse. I was living in East San Diego County at the time and had traveled up to Espanola, New Mexico to visit the Sikh community there. They grow a lot of medicinal herbs in greenhouses. A young American Sikh doctor took a look at my leg and I seem to remember him saying that it was probably a brown recluse bite. Anyway he told me to go to the greenhouses and get one of the attendants there to give me some Plantain leaves. That's a weed that grows everywhere. He told me to crush the leaves and rub them on the bite area. I did this and the sore began to heal immediately and was gone in a very short time. I wouldn't hesitate to use honey on a wound to control the bacteria, and ever since then I let the plantain weeds grow in my yard even though we don't have any Brown Recluses up here in Western Washington. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 05:09:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Proposed ban on GMO Corn in Europe In-Reply-To: <474A32B0.1F4@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Paul & All, I do not disagree with his research but have doubts about his conclusions. Bi Ag fights all bad publicity. Like with tobacco, refined sugar and in the future HFCS it will be hard to prove beyond a doubt these things cause problems. I believe corn pollen from Neonicotinoid treated seed and *possibly* corn pollen from GMO corn to contain health hazards for honeybees. However in areas when bees can gather pollen from other sources the problem (my opinion) seems to only display itself as dwindling. When forced to rely only on Neonicotinoid corn I have seen CCD type symptoms. The paper you site Paul is in *my opinion* simply another attempt tp protect the corn interests because as you well know when CCD happened in areas of GMO corn last fall the first finger pointed by researchers was at GMO corn. I personally did not buy into GMO corn as the cause alone for CCD but not so sure about Neonictinoids. > nor do the CCD symptoms resemble those expected > in Bt intoxicated organisms. I agree but still not concrete proof bt corn is not problematic to bees. Exposure is also very low because > the expression of endotoxins in pollen is barely detectable in > most Bt corn hybrids and corn does not produce nectar. He says *most* corn hybrids leaving out the fact not low in all corn hybrids. Also tries to throw the reader off by pointing out that bees do not get nectar from corn as far as his limited knowledge of bees is! Entomologists many times know little about the actual workings of bees and most their knowledge comes from biology. Taken from pg. 200 of American Honey plants by Frank Pellet; CORN: " It funishes an abundence of POLLEN in mid-summer and the bees work upon the tassels so freely as to give rise to a very general impression that it furnishes honey in abundence. At times aphids are to be found upon the stalk and the bees get a sweet substance from the axis of the leaves" Frank Pellet The book lists four other beekeepers claims of nectar from corn. I have my doubts but I have no doubt about the bees getting the corn pollen. Elisha Gallop wrote in Bee Culture: "One season in Iowa , my bees gathered honey from the corn.' ( Now its hard for most beekeepers to tell exactly the plant bees are getting nectar from espeically if pollen is also produced by the plant. However bees get into almost a frenzy at times when on a flow so I tend to believe the four beekeepers Pellet wrties about could have seen bees getting a liquid substance from the corn but may have been honeydew). reading on E. Gallop says" The bees gathered large quantities of pollen from the tassles, but the honey was gathered at the silk. The silk faily glistened with the sweet -so much you could taste it with your tounge, an aslo see it with your naked eye." In ABJ A.H. Pering wrote of instances when corn was growing rapidly the stalks had split and permitted the sap to run out . At such times the bees gather the sap. In conclusion frank Pellet says: " There are so many similat reports from different localities that the fact that bees sometimes store surplus from corn can hardly be questioned" ( I still have my doubts ) Bees at times frenzy while working corn pollen but personally I think getting nectar or heneydew is rare (if happens at all with the new hybrids). Pollen gathering I see only when no other sources are around. >From American Honey Plants by John Lovell" (pg 43) "Corn produces no nectar (1926), but is frquently visited by multitudes of bees for pollen". Under special conditions bees may store great quantities of corn pollen, filling whole frames with it" ( at times in Missouri i have got stacks of boxes full of frames of corn pollen filled frames I have removed from the hives to open the brood nest). J. Lovell says although plenty of reports are around of beekeepers getting honey from corn he has his doubts (as do I} I suspect what those beekeepers thought was honey was in fact honeydew. Possibly from plant lice or a leaf hopper. For > these reasons, bees are not commonly found foraging in corn > fields." Pure BS! > > feeding on pollen treated with purified Cry1 endotoxins at > doses considered well above the maximum environmental > exposure levels encountered in the field. Results showed > no negative effects on bee survival. Exactly like with all research. If the bees are not dead then the bees are not harmed! >" no negative effects on bee SURVIVAL" > A two-year field study (soon to be published in the > European bee journal Apidologie) conducted by this author > and his graduate student represents the first attempt to > expose functional colonies of honey bees to Bt corn pollen > under open field conditions. I guess we will have to wait on the real study. With all today's beekeeping problems (as shown in the CCD team samples ) it would be hard to prove bt corn or neonicotinoids are sources of bee problems. Especially when big ag wants to prove the opposite. After reading the CCD team reports and seeing all the things found in so called healthy bees I really can't call most of the U.S. bee population "healthy". A point used by Bayer lawyers in dealings in France! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 05:30:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Bee Bread Used to Treat Child with Rare Genetic Disorder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Bee Bread Used to Treat Child with Rare Genetic Disorder The Benefits of Beebread for T.J. An apitherapy case history of a child born with a rare chromosomal abnormality By Priscilla Coe, Journal of the American Apitherapy Society, Vol. 14, No. 3, September 2007 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/11/bee-bread-used-to-treat-child-with-rare.html Donald Downs, a long-time apitherapist in Wellington, Ohio, and member of the AAS board, has, at several AAS conferences, presented a brief case history on his work with T.J. Born with a virtually unknown genetic abnormality, T.J. was given a brief life expectancy. Beebread was introduced into formula via his feeding tube at age two by his maternal grandmother, Angie Gebhart Bittner. A distinct turning point for the better was noted almost immediately in his overall health... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:05:50 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Imadicloprid (was migratory beekeeping) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Lab studies commonly have little or no relevance to actual field conditions. If the GMO pollen in large amounts was harmful to the caterpillar, that's enough evidence for me that it's harmful. I assume regular pollen in large amounts did not have the same effect? Why allow something that's harmful at all? None of the studies I've seen - lab/field or otherwise - ever take into account the COMBINED effect of different harmful substances, even in individually low ppm amounts, on organisms or humans. Why not? It's silly to presume that folks are exposed to these poisons selectively or one at a time as done in studies. The mentioned studies may be a good first step in the evaluation process but should never be accepted as adequate for releasing new chemicals or organisms into the food supply or the environment. Give me well designed studies that mimic the actual exposure of wildlife or humans and then we can have a meaningful discussion. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:31:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Brian writes: > Peter I sense you feel science will solve all of the problems we face now and in the future? or do you have other suggestions to help the plight of the honeybee? You poo poo any ideas of restrictions so what's your solution then? Given a choice between science and superstition, I choose science. No, I don't think science will solve *all* the problems. I don't think *all* the problems will ever be solved. The biggest problem -- too many people -- can't be solved by science, hasn't been solved by politics, religion, or TV. I think that the restriction of movement is unworkable and at this time, unjustified. You can't quarantine unless you have proof that there is something there and it is not already here. If the cause of bee die-off is pesticides, modern agriculture, global warming, or sunspots, quarantines won't do a bloody thing. If it is caused by trucking, too many moves per year, overcrowding, feeding corn syrup or drugs, then don't do it. Nobody requires beekeepers to do these things. If a guy wrecks his bees by overworking them, that's his problem and he will fail in business. Natural selection will take him out of the gene pool. * I am a firm believer that the solution to the bee industry's problems lie in better bees. How this is going to come about, I don't know. We have restricted imports of bees for decades, at the risk of narrowing the genetic diversity of the bee population. If this is part of the current problem, I don't know. Letting bees in from other countries is fraught with peril (tropilaelaps). When I first heard about genetically modified organisms, I thought the same as you: this is seriously wrong, we are tinkering with things we don't understand. But as I studied it, I saw that it held vast potential for good (along with stem cell research) and that the GM crops haven't caused terrible problems so far. Most of the opposition to these scientific breakthroughs is based on fear of the unknown, outmoded moral precepts, and peer pressure. So when I first heard about the effort to map the honey bee genome, and efforts to genetically modify bees, I thought: bad idea. But the people that are at the forefront of this activity -- people like Sue Cobey and Gene Robinson -- are not relatives of Dr. Frankenstein. These are intelligent people and if they find a way to incorporate some vigor from honey bee stock A into honey bee stock B, then I am all for it. But I can already hear the hue and cry about that. -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:54:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Proposed ban on GMO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, Your points about bees working corn in a dearth of other pollen reminded me of something. I had never considered the possibility of corn being the only thing available before. In 2004 in Germany they fed large amounts of GM pollen to bees. Under these conditions IN THE PRESENCE OF NOSEMA the BT pollen affected the digestive system negatively and permanently. http://www.gmo-safety.eu/en/news/577.docu.html >>>In the first year the bee colonies happened to be infested with parasites (microsporidia). This infestation led to a reduction in the number of bees and subsequently to reduced broods in the Bt-fed colonies as well as in the colonies fed on Bt-toxin-free pollen. The trial was therefore discontinued at an early stage.<<<< ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:56:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Brian writes: >> You poo poo any ideas of restrictions so what's your solution then? OK, real world situation: migratory beekeeper loses most of his bees, moves down to Arizona, Texas, or Florida, and decides it is cheap and easy to restock with wild swarms from the woods, knowing that these are probably African. What do we, up here in the North, do about it? Close the state borders to bees from out of state? I don't think so, since this would ruin the business of countless other beekeepers who are not keeping African bees. Here's what I would do: Launch a campaign to educate the public about wild swarms. Many times I have heard people say that honey bees are protected, exterminators aren't supposed to kill them, etc. Untrue. Bees don't belong in your walls or attic and the quickest and cheapest way to deal with them is to spray now. I have heard of people charging 300 to 500 dollars to remove bees from walls, when 5 bucks worth of insecticide would work. Educate the beekeepers. While I support their right to move about the country and into communities, the communities have rights too. Bringing African bees into a safe area is irresponsible and stupid, and can lead to anti-beekeeping ordinances in towns. Beekeepers have the public eye right now and a lot of support. But that could evaporate over night, if the public thinks they are moving African bees from other states right into their neighborhoods. Finally, fines for violators. Right now, in NYS if a beekeeper moves 25 African colonies in with 2500 hives, probably nobody will even find out, since bee inspection is understaffed and sporadic. If an inspector does find one, all he can do is compel the beekeeper to kill it. I had a beekeeper tell me point blank that they don't kill them, "bees are too valuable these days". If they think they are going to get fined, or if the public is going to ban beekeeping in rural towns, maybe they'll smarten up. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:29:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: African Origin of Honey Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Honey Bee Genome Project Reveals Possible African Origin of All Honey Bees > Peter and all: How will this effect how perception is about AHBs by the way, not that I haven't been saying this for years in the Saga I did? Dee, You may have misunderstood the significance of this finding. Finding remnants of African genes in European bees is not the same as proving there is no difference in the European and African types. For example, it has been thought for years that the human race originated in Africa, too. That doesn't mean we are all African Americans here in the US. The populations left Africa hundreds of thousands of years ago and hence we have many races with quite different characteristics. There is a world of difference in the appearance of, say a Norwegian, whose ancestors left Africa maybe a million years ago, and someone who can trace his roots to Africa in a few generations. Same with African and European bees. The European bees have lived so long in a temperate climate that they developed the ability to overwinter in cavities, which tropical bees do not need to do-- as well as other characteristics that make them quite different. Some African and European lines have been separate so long that they are quite nearly different species. In the case of the African and Asian bees, they ARE separate species. Following DNA research, you will see that the DNA of organisms today (people, bees, whatever) contains a sort of historical record of their ancestry. We share characters with our human brethren throughout the world, as well as chimps, gorillas, etc. It can be shown when these branches diverged, by studying the number of markers we have in common and the number we don't. So European bees may have some African markers, but these are traces from the very distant past when they crossed into Europe, maybe at Gibraltar. But they are no anywhere near as closely related to African bees today as the bees in Arizona are. * * * > The African and European bees are supposed to be the same species and should therefore be completely genetically compatible. Our studies show that there are a number of barriers to gene flow from European bees into the African bee population but that the converse is not true, European bees are vulnerable to hybridization with African bees. This asymmetry in hybridization combined with low survival of the hybrid bees evidently leads to a rapid elimination of European bees and their genetic traits. (Orley Taylor) * * * > The Africanized honeybee (AHB) has a unique tolerance to V. destructor that is not present in the A. mellifera European honeybee (EHB), from which the AHB hybrid was derived. This unexpected tolerance mechanism provides a valuable insight into the evolution of host-parasite interactions. > It is unlikely that AHB evolved Varroa tolerance after the AHB hybrid was created as a result of increased hygienic behaviour or brood attractiveness because such factors are unlikely to lead to a stabilized mite population. Instead, tolerance has probably resulted from preexisting resistance characteristics fortuitously coming together in the hybrid. (Stephen J. Martin and Luis M. Medina) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:56:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey as the New 'Silver' Dressing in Wound Care In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Steve and All, I think what made me less of a skeptic about the honey use for recluse spider bites was two things. 1. the honey was always gone when time to reapply. 2. On about the 3rd day my wife said (bite was on back) the volcano & puss was starting to come back. We then went back to a generous amount of honey on the site and then volcano and puss went away. healed in a week. To sum things up I believe if I had started treatment earlier I would have had less of a scar (although about a eighth of an inch in diameter now) . I ignored the bite for about 24 hours as had been feeding bees and did not feel the bite as I thought the irritation was simply from a sting on my back. I do not wear a bee suit but simply use a "bug baffler" which I pull off and keep in the truck. I found a dead recluse in one of my bugg bafflers and think the spider was in one of several bugg bafflers and bit me when I pulled the Bugg baffler over my head and leaned back against the truck seat (but only my hypothesis as I do not remember the bite). Another possible hypothesis has nothing to do with the bugg baffler , feeding bees and my feed truck. The day before I found the bite I was wearing overalls and going through around a 100 deep brood boxes of frames needing foundation. These had been sitting outside and I saw a few recluse. I had a fire going and was burning old frames and culling boxes not worth the time and money of repair. Possibly a recluse crawled up an open pant leg and then bit when I bent over pressing the spider between my back and the loose fitting overalls. Regardless I have seen many recluse bites. Another beekeeper helper Ted Slacker ( does not own bees but works for my beekeeping partner and I when needed for extra money from his regular job) has a recluse bite on his leg right now. Recluse spiders are hard to rid from your property. Sprays will only kill if shot directly on the spider. Sticky glue traps are the most effective. My building is full of bee equipment stacked pallets high this time of year and the perfect place for a recluse spider to call home. I don't really worry about being bit as I have got plenty of scars and comparing scars (like guys do) I usually end up the person with the most scars. My beekeeping partner (reads the list but never posts) will not like me telling on him but we bought out a 2000 hive operation in Anderson, Missouri and part of the equipment was stored in three semi trailers (with plenty of recluse spiders) . As we worked to unload the semi trailers onto our truck he kept saying " lookout for the recluse!' " I never seen so many recluse!" AND he always wanted to load on the outside truck and seemed uncomfortable working in the dark semi trailer so Brian & I worked the inside. The recluse spider is about the size of a quarter and very fast. hard to kill with a newspaper similar to trying to kill a sitting fly. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:45:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: African Origin of Honey Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit RE: >> Honey Bee Genome Project Reveals Possible African Origin of All Honey Bees This really is old news, the article cited came out in Oct 2006. Based upon findings in Science Magazine: > Results indicate that A. mellifera originated in Africa and expanded into Eurasia at least twice, resulting in populations in eastern and western Europe that are geographically close but genetically distant. A third expansion in the New World has involved the near-replacement of previously introduced "European" honey bees by descendants of more recently introduced A. m. scutellata ("African" or "killer" bees). -- Science. 27 October 2006 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:12:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Timothy C. Eisele" Subject: Re: Honey as the New 'Silver' Dressing in Wound Care In-Reply-To: <3AE6228781A2443D9D805208FDD6AD1B@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Hello Steve and All, > I think what made me less of a skeptic about the honey use for recluse > spider bites was two things. > > 1. the honey was always gone when time to reapply. > > 2. On about the 3rd day my wife said (bite was on back) the volcano & > puss > was starting to come back. We then went back to a generous amount of > honey > on the site and then volcano and puss went away. healed in a week. > Two things: 1. I believe you when you say that the honey application helped clear up your necrotic lesion, but 2. I'm not so sure that you should be quite so quick to blame the lesion on a spider bite, unless you actually see the spider biting you (or feel the bite and actually see the associated spider or its corpse shortly afterwards). There is a nice article at http://www.xs4all.nl/~ednieuw/Spiders/Agelenidae/BennettVetterCFP.pdf by a couple of Canadian entomologists explaining how people all over the world are convinced that necrotic lesions come from spider bites, even though the vast majority of the time they are caused by things like bacterial skin infections. I've had some nasty sores that start as splinters or thorns that embedded in the skin and got infected, for example. There's apparently a lot of people in Canada who claim to have been bitten by brown recluse spiders, even though these spiders have never actually been found in Canada. Basically, honey is good for clearing up infections, and necrotic skin lesions are usually caused by infections, so putting one on the other is just good sense. Spider bites, on the other hand -- well, I am in Michigan, which I grant is not within the range of the brown recluse, but we have lots of spiders of comparable size that should be at least able to break the skin, even if they aren't that toxic. I've never been bitten by a spider, and it sure isn't for lack of opportunity (I regularly poke, prod, and pick up large spiders that I find around the place). I once asked over 200 people on an email mailing list if anybody had ever seen a spider actually in the act of biting them (or scurrying away from a bite), and exactly two could actually confirm a bite. Both had been bitten on the hand while unstacking firewood, and both said the bite was minor, less serious than a wasp sting, and cleared up quickly with no wound. I think that spiders are getting a bad rap for very little cause, and we really shouldn't blame them for a bite unless it is a sure thing. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:01:16 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I can't believe I am reading this from Peter! >>...decides it is cheap and easy to restock with wild swarms from the woods, knowing that these are probably African. Is it easy to catch dozens or hundreds of Africanized swarms in the Southwest? I'd imagine it would takes weeks if not months. Would it be worth your time? I'd rather re-stock with packages and use the time doing actual beekeeping. >>What do we, up here in the North, do about it? Close the state borders to bees from out of state? This would not stop cheaters. You would probably discourage most, catch a few law breakers, and still some would get through. It would only slow down the process. >>Many times I have heard people say that honey bees are protected, exterminators aren't supposed to kill them, etc. Untrue. It's true that honey bees are unprotected by law but only foolish exterminators try to kill an established colony in a house structure. >>Bees don't belong in your walls or attic and the quickest and cheapest way to deal with them is to spray now. Oh, yeah? Why now and not before? Go ahead and spray. But then you have to deal with the liability when the homeowner calls and yells that there is honey dripping from her chandolere and the ceiling and wall are stained. Not to mention the stench of rotting bees. It's not just the public that needs to be educated... :-))) [It's also foolish to have insecticide vapors linger in your house. So what you can buy a can of wasp spray at Home Depot - it does not mean it's good for your health to spray the stuff in your walls.] I've cleaned up these grave sites and it's no fun. And I charge extra for being exposed to insecticide vapors. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:37:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ted_Hancock?= Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think there are some parallels between this discussion concerning migratory beekeeping and the debate over the health effects of cigarettes. The evidence that cigarettes killed people was irrefutable by the mid 70's but it took another twenty years to change peoples' attitudes and make it socially unacceptable to light up in a public place. Arguments used by those in favour of the large scale, long distance movement of beehives have a familiar ring to those used by the pro-smoking lobby. "If the ciagarette companies are killing off their customers they will go out of business", "There are two kinds of humans, those with lung cancer and those waiting to get lung cancer", "People should be free to do what they want because it's only hurting them", "The cigarette industry employs thousands and generates billions in taxes, to regulate it would be unthinkable." "You can't ban smoking or my industry (restaurants/bars) will be put out of business" etc. And through those twenty years of debate there were a few individuals who persisted in standing up in public to point out the falacies in all these arguments. I sometimes found such individuals annoying and shrill but I now appreciate their determination to stop smoking in public. I enjoy being able to eat a resturant meal without someone at the next table puffing away, and I know it's better for everyone's health. And speaking of clean air, it is something that seems to be missing from this discussion. Some have even suggested that migratory beekeeping is harmless because it is a tradition going back three thousand years. But we're not using dhows now, brown cow. Trucks pollute the very environment bees need to thrive, not only with what comes out the stack but through tire and brake wear. I know, I know, trucking bees is a such a small slice of the trucking industry that it is hardly worth mentioning. But is there anyone who doesn't think there are too many trucks on the road? If you're not part of the solution... In my most recent issue of The Hive and the Honey Bee, E. L. Atkins mentions research done in the late 70's (pg 1200 - 1203) that shows air pollution damages plants and shortens honey bee lifespans. The research indicated that pollution's effect increases with an increase in temperature. Does anyone know of more recent research on this subject? Or how pollution affects mites? I don't feel it is my place to suggest how Americans organize their beekeeping industry because I live in Canada. However I can tell you that closing the Canada/U.S. border to the importation of bees in 1987 slowed the spread of mites in Canada. I did not get varroa in my bees until 1997 and have still not found Acarapis woodi. And I am not unique among Canadian beekeepers. During those ten years, when I was mite-free, our national beekeeping organization was able to get formic acid registered for use in Canada so I could treat mites when they arrived. I'm thinking I must now be close to one of the longest bee-l messages ever by now. Maybe even right up there with some of Alan Dick's and old whatshisnames (226 lines?!?!!). So I will make one more observation just to try and break that record. I read bee-l by going to the University of Albany website and clicking on a few messages I think I might find interesting. And sometimes if I'm really bored and procrastinating about doing something useful I'll read them all. And I have noticed I tend to read debates on this sort of divisive topic rather than reading C. Hooper's latest update on the benefits of hive products ('Oh, something about the health benefits of propolis from C. Hooper, yawn'). Yet it is the low return on hive products relative to pollination fees that is largely driving this whole migratory beekeeping industry. How to get more money out of a stationary beehive is what we should be discussing. So C. Hooper, whoever you are, I am making it my New Year's resolution to start reading your posts. That only leaves me about a month to continue wallowing in the mud here. Till then, keep up the good work. Ted Thinking - social attitudes make all the difference. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:01:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Waldig: >Is it easy to catch dozens or hundreds of Africanized swarms in the Southwest? I'd imagine it would takes weeks if not months. Would it be worth your time? I'd rather re-stock with packages and use the time doing actual beekeeping. Well, so would I. But according to what I have heard, you can set out empty hives in the areas where African bees are, and they just fill up with bees. Also, Africans swarm much more frequently than Euros and build up much more quickly. Plus, these guys are down in Florida for up to 6 months out of the year > Dr. Steven Thoenes, who runs a commercial bee-removal service, is quoted as saying that in three years, the frequency of swarming in the region increased tenfold due to AHB influence (see April 1993 APIS) > In the Neotropics, African colonies can increase 16-fold per year, whereas maximum increases in feral European colonies in temperate areas are only three- to sixfold (Stanley Schneider, et al) -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:10:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >>Many times I have heard people say that honey bees are protected, exterminators aren't supposed to kill them, etc. Untrue. > It's true that honey bees are unprotected by law but only foolish exterminators try to kill an established colony in a house structure. >>Bees don't belong in your walls or attic and the quickest and cheapest way to deal with them is to spray now. > Oh, yeah? Why now and not before? Go ahead and spray. But then you have to deal with the liability when the homeowner calls and yells that there is honey dripping from her chandelier and the ceiling and wall are stained. Perhaps I was unclear. What I meant by NOW, is that the homeowner should deal with it right away before the bees get established. Or at least, get someone to do it right away. There are products on the market that use detergent spray to avoid the poison issue. Homeowners can deal with their own pest problems, I do. Exterminators should be knowledgeable enough to do it, and have liability insurance as well. Once the swarm is entrenched, a beekeeper will no doubt be required. But try to find one who will do it. I agree that 300 to 500 bucks is fair for a hive that has been there for more than a few weeks. And that doesn't include repairing the wall. > I can't believe I am reading this from Peter! Well, sorry. I don't know everything ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:01:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Honey as the New 'Silver' Dressing in Wound Care MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all. Brown recluse spiders are the only spider that you cannot feel the bite. Therefore you will not see them or feel it bite. Blood test will confirm brown recluse bites. If any are interested, I have some pictures of a brown recluse bite that was not treated . Ugly!!!! Email me off list and I will send them. I pasted them in an email that is good for printing. High resolution. Lionel ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:42:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredrickson writes “seems silly to me to even debate if moving bees spreads problems: I don’t recall anyone saying that moving bees does not result in spreading of problems. At issue here is whether shutting down the movement of bees solves more problems than it creates, given all the factors to be considered, including how to enforce it, who benefits and who is harmed by it, and how effective it would be at solving the problems. In order to arrive at a decision as a society, the case for halting what is now a very integral part of a very firmly entrenched agricultural system will have to be a much stronger one than I have heard anyone on this list make yet. At least that is my impression of the current reality and I could be wrong. I do not think what some consider just plain common sense will be enough to counter the argument against disrupting the system as it currently exists. It will have to be shown that keeping bees stationary can result in a significant fulfillment of the nations pollination needs. If the economics of this possible shift in our way of doing things can be shown to work for more people than it doesn’t, then things will gradually move in the direction Brian and others would like to see, even if the heavy hand of politics doesn’t come into it. And it is always better if the politicians can be kept out of it. That path can be so inefficient. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:05:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Corn Pollen and Bees In-Reply-To: <000501c83033$efe692f0$6401a8c0@NOTEBOOK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Last summer I at times I was huge numbers of bumble bees working the corn tassels on the sweet corn in my garden. It seemed there were three, four, even five bees working the tassels of each corn stalk. I did not notice any honey bees around, but then considering my location, I'm sure there were other sources of pollen available. Point is, bees do work the tassels of corn for pollen, sometimes quite vigorously. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:38:35 -0600 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: Re: Honey as the New 'Silver' Dressing in Wound Care" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Tim Tucker [mailto:tuckerb@hit.net] Sent: Mon 2007.11.26 19:53 To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Honey as the New 'Silver' Dressing in Wound Care Tim Eisele wrote: "I'm not so sure that you should be quite so quick to blame the lesion >on a spider bite, unless you actually see the spider biting you. Hello Tim and All, Not living in an area where brown recluse spiders or black widows are prevalent you most likely have simply not been exposed to the bites of Lexoceles reclusa. Having been in the exterminating business for 18 years in Kansas and Missouri which are heavily infested with this spider I have seen dozens of bites and been bitten at least 10 times over the years, one time twice in a period of several months. When you spend much of your day snaking through crawl spaces you tend to get into the hunting area of these "aggressive spiders". Most homes that are 15 year old or older have brown recluse spiders in their basements, crawl spaces and attics. They are known as hunters as they spin a very poor web and actually drop onto their victims when possible and the opportunity presents itself. Many mistakenly link the spiders reclusive nature and ability to go long periods without food with a shy or non-aggressive nature which isn't the case when they have the need to once again f! eed. The severity of the bite depends upon the amount of venom injected at the site and can vary from spider to spider just as the sting of the honey bee can vary from bee to bee as to their venom content. It will also depend upon the persons response to the venom as to how the bite develops and progresses, exactly the same with the sting of the honey bee. The most significant identifier is that initially, the bite will become swollen, very hard to the touch and will feel warm to the touch. It may be the size of a dime or in one case that I had on the back of the neck, the size of a softball. Treatment is limited to just a matter of 24 to 36 hours, but each time I had a large bite, there was pain and no doubt as to what it was. Like many others, my doctor wanted to just proscribe an antibiotic but I refused and insisted on a cortisone shot in the site and in the hip. Antibiotics will not stop the progression of tissue death but simply help you avoid serious infection once the bite starts to open up. This had been recommended by one of my friends who had been in the business many years. Within 24 hours the swelling was gone and the ulcerous lesion never developed and all tissue death that might have resulted was stopped. Last summer I had a small one on the leg and treated it with 1% Cortisone Cream and it also prevented! tissue death and I had only a small scab at the actual bite location. While very aware of the seriousness of cortisone, especially for some, it can be a useful treatment and can for many prevent the destructive tissue damage that will result from a severe bite. These bites are not to be fooled with when the reaction is large and while I agree with you that many falsely blame infections and lesions of other cause to spider bites, there are many of these that have caused serious lesions and resulting infections. It's best to get sound professional advice when the suspicion is that you've been bit by a brown spider and not make light of the situation. While it is true that 90% of all brown spider bites heal without problems and there's no proof that anyone has died from a brown spider bite, there's the 5 - 10% that can really produce some ugly reactions. OSU fact sheet with a pretty good picture for i.d. at following address: http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2061.html There's a link in this report to an Amednew.com report where a Dr. Bush from Loma Linda School of Medicine says he hasn't ever seen a brown spider bite and I would simply say that he needs to serve at K.U. Med Center for a year or two. But he is correct in saying that most doctors would most likely mis-diagnose a brown spider bite. Tim Tucker ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:07:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey as the New 'Silver' Dressing in Wound Care" Comments: To: Tim Tucker In-Reply-To: <18855118.1196127515813.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tim T. & All, Thanks for the recluse information. I have been told that the large wolf spider will seek out and kill brown recluse. True or false? I see a couple other spiders in my area that look similar to the brown recluse but do not have the violin and the color is off. I have been told that for some reason not all recluse today have got the violin mark. True or false? These other spiders I do not believe are recluse because they come out at night in the country under lights. These spiders are slow and do not seem aggressive. At the Missouri state fair I asked the Missouri conservation people about a small wolf spider which is black with a red dot on the back. They said I must be talking about a black widow. I said no as the black widow is similar in shape to a recluse except for the thin legs and the spider I see is a wolf spider. Ever see a black wolf spider with a red spot Tim? bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:12:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: SPIDER-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Folks, =20 The spider thread started as "honey as a treatment for wounds", brown = recluse spiders got introduced to the thread, remotely relating to = "honey as a treatment for wounds", and has now taken on a life of it's = own albeit completely off topic. Maybe it's time to let this thread die = or move it to Spider-L? =20 Aaron Morris, BEE-L Janitor ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:41:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Case Report: Bee Venom Therapy Helps Relieve Pain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Case Report: Bee Venom Therapy Helps Relieve Pain Bee Stings-A Remedy for Postherpetic Neuralgia? A Case Report Regional Anesthesia and Pain Medicine, Volume 32, Issue 6, Pages 533-535 (November 2007) http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/11/case-report-bee-venom-therapy-helps.html Objective: This case report describes the effects of bee stings on painful postherpetic neuralgia in a 51-year-old man... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:37:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Proposed ban on GMO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick said: Under these conditions IN THE PRESENCE OF > NOSEMA the BT pollen affected the digestive system negatively and > permanently. This is a very interesting point, Dick. Nosema makes the gut more permeable. The author of the German paper stated that nosema shouldn't be a problem since the disease is absent when corn is producing pollen. That only applies to N. apis, but not to N. ceranae, which can have high levels during the summer. We checked 125 individual colonies for nosema infection levels yesterday. It is surprising to see the differences yard to yard, colony to colony, and bee to bee! Some yards had 90% of the colonies highly infested. Some yards averaged very low levels. A colony with high infestation can be sitting next to a colony with extremely low spore levels (it is rare to find a colony in which you can find zero spores). Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:41:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: African Origin of Honey Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Honey Bee Genome Project Reveals Possible African Origin of All Honey >> Bees What this suggests to me is that the European bee may have some old African genes in the back closet, which could be selected for to breed for the pest resistance that scutellata demonstrates. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:50:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: migratory beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An interesting note (thanks to Janet Brisson). Honey bees were well established in New England by 1654. They still didn't made it on their own to California during the ensuing 200 years, and had to be shipped in. This was a rate of dispersal far slower than the AHB. Again, the geographical barriers surely played a part. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:28:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: migratory beekeeping In-Reply-To: <0f9301c8310d$2d0642a0$3eaa5142@MyPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit randy oliver wrote: > An interesting note (thanks to Janet Brisson). > Honey bees were well established in New England by 1654. They still > didn't made it on their own to California during the ensuing 200 > years, and had to be shipped in. This was a rate of dispersal far > slower than the AHB. Again, the geographical barriers surely played a > part. Different routes, different barriers. To get a good comparison, it would be interesting if bees were found in Ohio before settlers came in. One interesting fact is the honeybee was called the "white man's fly. So did they precede the settlers or were they concurrent? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:30:22 -0500 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: Honey as the New 'Silver' Dressing in Wound Care In-Reply-To: <00c001c8306f$870a2030$8a3f4945@bige953ca8f8be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lionel Evans wrote: > Hi all. > > Brown recluse spiders are the only spider that you cannot feel the bite. > Therefore you will not see them or feel it bite. Blood test will confirm > brown recluse bites. Just a heads up, a recent article in the medical literature analyzed brown recluse numbers vs reported bites for my state, SC, and found far more bites than spiders, some of which were in fact methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA)infections. From the discussion: "However, considering the recent emergence of MRSA as a skin and soft tissue pathogen, MRSA infections may represent a larger portion of suspected brown recluse bites in South Carolina than previously suspected. Physicians should maintain a high level of suspicion for MRSA in any patient with a skin or soft tissue infection, but especially if the patient presents with a complaint of spider bite. A common misconception is that brown recluse spiders can be found anywhere in North America because they could be inadvertently transported during commerce, but the arachnological evidence shows that Loxosceles spiders are rare outside endemic areas.[5]" From Journal of the American Board of Family Medicine Reports of Envenomation by Brown Recluse Spiders Exceed Verified Specimens of Loxosceles Spiders in South Carolina, Posted 10/29/2007, Ivar L. Frithsen, MD, MS; Richard S. Vetter, MS; Ian C. Stocks, MS http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/563630_1 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:40:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Corn Pollen and Bees In-Reply-To: <70286.3875.qm@web53406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting quote concerning the finding that GMO pollen had no effect on healthy bees but did effect bees with gut parasites (not Varroa) more than non-GMO pollen. > > According to Hans-Hinrich Kaatz, a professor at the University of > Halle in eastern Germany and the director of the study, the bacterial > toxin in the genetically modified corn may have "altered the surface > of the bee's intestines, sufficiently weakening the bees to allow the > parasites to gain entry -- or perhaps it was the other way around. We > don't know." > > Of course, the concentration of the toxin was ten times higher in the > experiments than in normal Bt corn pollen. In addition, the bee feed > was administered over a relatively lengthy six-week period. > Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:56:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: migratory beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy Oliver writes: “This was a rate of dispersal far slower than the AHB. Again, the geographical barriers surely played a part.” The geographical barrier issue would seem to be a significant one. AHB has been for the most part traveling in parallel to the big mountain rages, while the movement of European bees would have been going perpendicular to them. So we would need to look more closely to get an accurate picture of just how fast EHB is capable of spreading out before it encounters some geographical or climatologically barrier. Never the less it’s clear that AHB is capable of expanding within its habitable range much more rapidly than EHB would be within its. The rate of expansion of AHB, then, may only be useful in providing a benchmark in terms of how rapidly bees COULD travel on their own under suitable conditions. Even scaling this top speed of AHB back for the EHB case I think we would get, under more or less ideal conditions, a potential rate of expansion of greater than 6 miles per year which is the top rate that Rury mentioned. I realize that is kind of speculative on my part, but it’s a starting point. All this has significance in terms of how rapidly parasites and diseases could spread over the continent or large sub regions of the continent if transporting bees could somehow be controlled. What we are talking about here is how much time does trying to stop the unregulated human transport of bees, using enforcement measures, buy us, and is it worth the price we would have to pay. It’s not clear to me. This whole matter might eventually become moot if the rate of attrition of beekeepers in itself results in sufficiently less human transport of bees. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:01:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: migratory beekeeping In-Reply-To: <474C61E3.2010308@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: , it would be interesting if bees were found in Ohio before settlers came in. One interesting fact is the honeybee was called the "white man's fly. So did they precede the settlers or were they concurrent? According to a local historian (NE Ohio), they preceded but not by much. The presence of honeybees in your area was a reliable indicator that the settlers were coming. Logically, they would have to be coming soon enough that the established residents could make the connection between honeybees and the coming of the settlers so you're probably talking a few years difference. Just to be a contrarian, though, I could offer a hypothesis that the presence of honeybees in your area only meant that you already had one settler in the area who you did not yet know about but who brought the bees with him. The one settler then attracted others until there are enough new people that you notice the incursion. To you, it seems like the bees came first even though they were concurrent with the first settler. I don't know of a way to prove or disprove the hypothesis. Mike Rossander --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:29:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Corn Pollen and Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Several years ago I received an ag related grant to buy a microscope to use for identifying pollen floral sources in my pollen traps and honey. long story short in a normal non-drought season in central Mn we found minimal traces of corn pollen for a period of 2 weeks. this region is rich with pollen and nectar sources from early April to late Sept and we average some nice crops. corn is a fairly common crop here although maybe not as densely planted as southern MN or IA etc.. so while I don't worry much about my bees eating corn pollen here it could be a much different story elsewhere. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 23:42:25 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Bees and settlers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>To get a good comparison, it would be interesting if bees were found in Ohio before settlers came in. One interesting fact is the honeybee was called the "white man's fly. So did they precede the settlers or were they concurrent? One of the books by James Fenimore Cooper - I think the title was Prairie - has a secondary character who is a young beekeeper hunting bees in Indian country on the frontier. Perhaps not historically accurate but this reference indicates the swarms somewhat preceded the settlers. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 23:45:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Corn pollen & bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>According to Hans-Hinrich Kaatz, a professor at the University of > Halle in eastern Germany and the director of the study, the bacterial toxin in the genetically modified corn may have "altered the surface of the bee's intestines, sufficiently weakening the bees to allow the parasites to gain entry... There are references online about the potential of GMO genes jumping to bacteria in the digestive track. This modified bacteria could be quite dangerous [to humans and bees]. This week Japan, moved to require calling out GMO ingretients on food product labels and against allowing growing GMO crops in Japan although they still import GMO foods from the US. Europe, on the other hand, has been steadily increasing their GMO acreage although it's still a drop in the bucket compared to US GMO acreage. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:06:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: African Origin of Honey Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit randy oliver wrote: >What this suggests to me is that the European bee may have some old African >genes in the back closet, which could be selected for to breed for the pest >resistance that scutellata demonstrates. Except for the fact that they use mitochondrial DNA to trace the lineage. This material is not recombined in sexual reproduction so it remains relatively unchanged for thousands of years. Hence, it would not be expected to contain any information that reflected local adaptations such as one would see in specific geographic races like scutellata. The genetic component to specific behaviors is not entirely understood nor is the reason why scuts resist pests tied to one specific behavior. It may be due to a shorter development period as some suggest, or due to their tendency to swarm and abscond. Absconding is good way to get rid of pests. Finally, not all bees in Africa are scuts, and there is no suggestion that all these bees descended from them, either. They undoubtedly all descended from some ancestral race which is the source of the mitochondrial markers which have been found in the descendants. From that ancestor we get the races we now have. It could be that the original tropical ancestors were in fact more like monticola. As they dispersed they evolved needed characters wherever they went. If they went far north, they needed to become larger and learn to live in cavities. If they went to the desert they needed to become smaller and be able to survive long spells of hot, dry weather. If they went into the savanna, they had to become fierce. It would be nice to think that there is a specific gene for pest resistance, but following the studies of Dave Tarpy, Heather Matilla and all, it looks as if it's crucial for a colony of honey bees to have a variety of lineages and a variety of techniques for combating pests. The best breed may be a combination of all of them, the ultimate super mutt. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:29:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: migratory bees, frontier version In-Reply-To: <474C61E3.2010308@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote:One interesting fact is the honeybee was called the "white man's fly. So did they precede the settlers or were they concurrent? This is an annecdotal response, but as I remember reading somewhere the native Americans called the honey bee the "white man's fly" because when they found them they knew that white men would be following them in short order. In other words, the honey bee preceded the settler according to what I understood. Can't tell you from what source that info came. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:19:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: SPIDER-L Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >....let this thread die or move it to Spider-L? Well, what do you know...there is a forum out there for spiders. On a whim I Googled “Spider-L” and came up with a URL directing me to the Target store web site. At the Target web site a search listed 88 matches for “Spider-L”, mostly Spider Man stuff for sale. So, I Googled “spider forums” and came up with “forums/insecthobbyist.com”. They’ve got all kinds of critter forums there. However, they have only one forum lumping the Hymenopteran: bees, wasps, and hornets together. Interestingly though, the Hymenopteran: ant has a forum all to itself. There are six Arachnid sites--four spider sites, one scorpion site, and one tarantula site. (And, of course, there is a Spider Man forum out there in cyberspace, too.) Regards, Dick Allen ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 00:02:16 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Proposed ban on GMO In-Reply-To: <0f5c01c8310b$78204080$3eaa5142@MyPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Randy Based on the research I been doing on my colonies, the threshold for nosema varies colony to colony, or maybe strain to strain. I am sure we can develop bees more resistant to nosema but for this, as with varroa, we need to stop treatments for a while (accepting loosing some or lots of colonies) for selecting the resistant stock for further multiplication. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:06:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: migratory beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve wrote: What we are talking about here is how much time does trying to stop the unregulated human transport of bees, using enforcement measures, buy us, and is it worth the price we would have to pay? Couldn't have stated it better myself! Randy ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:28:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: African Origin of Honey Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great points, Pete, but I would still guess the implication that there are likely genes that could be tweaked or adapted. I wasn't thinking when I mentioned scutellata--it's the ancestor of AHB in th eAmerica's, not the EHB's in Europe--thanks! I saw a map recently on the distribution of varroa in Africa, but can't locate it. I'm wondering what the tolerance for varroa is among the various African races of bees. Randy ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:41:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Proposed ban on GMO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Juanse said: I am sure we can develop > bees more resistant to nosema but for this, as with varroa, we need to > stop > treatments for a while (accepting loosing some or lots of colonies) for > selecting the resistant stock for further multiplication. Hi Juanse. I was thinking of you today--enjoying the beginning of summer as the weather turns cold in my hemisphere! This is a common misconception--that it is necessary to let colonies die in order to develop resistance to a pest. In my own operation, I try not to let any colonies die. I do kill a lot of queens though, since what I want to die out is poor genes, not the bees themselves, since they die on an individual basis soon enough. The point is, you can screen for resistance by letting nonresistant colonies die, OR you can screen for resistance by another method (e.g., stickyboards, microscopy), then breed only from those showing resistance. Keep the best bees isolated as best you can in breeding areas, and run the rest for production (with appropriate treatments) to make a living. Each spring, replace all nonresistant queens with resistant queens. A beekeeper who is not making a living cannot well further stock improvement! As Bob Harrison has pointed out, you need to breed from good producers to stay in business. Breed for any other trait secondarily (unless you are a researcher, who enjoys the luxury of getting paid while accepting such losses in the search of promising genes, as John Harbo did for SMR). Randy ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:16:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: migratory bees, frontier version Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_5385_15565914.1196230562448" ------=_Part_5385_15565914.1196230562448 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but.... in discussions of this, it is often overlooked that the Spanish were in Mexico in about 1535, and brought the Catholic church, with the attendant (mandatory) use of beeswax for candles. Ask you local priest. How many years does it take for bees to work their way from Monterrey to the (now) USA? Besides, Spanish ships were travelling the Pacific coast. - John Edwards On Tue Nov 27 16:29:33 PST 2007, Mike Stoops wrote: > Bill Truesdell wrote:One interesting > fact is the honeybee was called the "white man's fly. So did they > precede the settlers or were they concurrent? > ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ------=_Part_5385_15565914.1196230562448-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:22:01 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Nosema sampling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Based on the research I been doing on my colonies, the threshold for > nosema > varies colony to colony, or maybe strain to strain. How much of the variation is in the sampling? Way back in the 80's when I was with the Dept of Primary Industries, one of the things I was hoping to look at was the sampling error for nosema within the hive. Several times I had taken samples and out of curiosity I took a second sample. Back at the lab, one would be negative and the other would often be in the millions of spores. It was one thing I would have liked to take further but I left before I was able to do the experiment. Has anyone else looked at this sampling error? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:45:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: AHB Origin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote: >>> If they went to the desert they needed to become smaller and be able to survive long spells of hot, dry weather.<<<< Here's a great chance for a scientist/math major type to chime in and prove that larger bees hold more moisture per unit of mass. Back to something sensible. Can anyone explain why AHB become gentler at altitude? (Dewey Caron) Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:11:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Nosema sampling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor asked: > Has anyone else looked at this [nosema]sampling error? Hi Trevor, I've looked at hundreds of samples and subsamples over the past several weeks, and I've gone over the mathematics of "detection sampling." I just sent off two articles detailing all my findings and recommendations to ABJ--it will be published in Jan. A third article on treatment methods will follow. In short, I think the standard sampling method with a 10-bee sample is woefully inadequate! What part of the colony you sample from, and even the time of day are critical. The articles will describe, with a series of photos, three different sampling techniques and preparation for individual colonies, yards, and whole operations. I also describe the microscopy involved, and make recommendations for microscope models (and have swung a small bonus for beekeepers from one microscope vendor). I'm about to set up a 100-colony test of various nosema treatments. I'm also going to standardize a quick "triage" method of determinining nosema levels in the beeyard, or back at home. I am happy to accept donations to help fund my research, the results of which will be published in ABJ, and subsequently posted to my website for free access by all. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:27:03 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Proposed ban on GMO In-Reply-To: <106e01c83179$02d90500$3eaa5142@MyPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well Randy that was the idea but your english is far better than mine. The point is that we can develop bees more resistant to Nosema apis or ceranae. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:23:31 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Nosema sampling In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10711280814n25534788y307ee2c370e4a3e2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > You are absolutelly rigth. It will depend on the age of the bees, as older > the higher the spore count. But also it will depend on the time that you > left the sample to rest before taken to the microscope. It seem that the > spores float, so if you give enough time (more than 10 minutes) you will > have higher counts. > > I always take the samples from the bees that return in the afternoon with > polen loads and left the sample to rest the same amount of time (10 > minutes). > > Juanse > > > Trevor Weatherhead > > How much of the variation is in the sampling? Way back in the 80's when I > was with the Dept of Primary Industries, one of the things I was hoping to > look at was the sampling error for nosema within the hive. ..... > AUSTRALIA > > -- > Juanse Barros J. > APIZUR S.A. > Carrera 695 > Gorbea - CHILE > +56-45-271693 > 08-3613310 > http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ > juanseapi@gmail.com > ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:55:29 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: African Origin of Honey Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > but I would still guess the implication that there > are likely genes that could be tweaked or adapted. What part of the term "mitochondrial DNA" was unclear? :) Peter explained very clearly, so I don't need to rephrase: >> they use mitochondrial DNA to trace the lineage. >> This material is not recombined in sexual reproduction >> so it remains relatively unchanged for thousands of years. >> Hence, it would not be expected to contain any information >> that reflected local adaptations such as one would see in >> specific geographic races like scutellata. Maybe we need to add "Genetics" to the presentation and workshop schedules at all regional bee meetings from now on. If nothing else, it would avoid the embarrassing sort of basic errors like the one above, and the ones made by the authors of the paper in the journal "Science" that resulted in IAPV being accused, tried, and convicted as having anything at all to do with CCD based upon such a limited number of samples. (The irony here is that the older samples analyzed by Evans and Chen that showed IAPV in US bees as early as 2002 were likely stored in the same exact freezer where the more recent "CCD" samples were stored.) When Langstorth came along, beekeepers had to learn woodworking. When mites came along, beekeepers had to learn pest control. When HPLC/Mass Spec came along, beekeepers had to learn statistics. Now that genetics seems to be trendy, we need to learn that, too. Beekeepers may end up being he last "Renaissance Men", merely as a survival skill set. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:19:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: migratory beekeeping In-Reply-To: <102101c83174$14fc5e30$3eaa5142@MyPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The issue of bee movement when there are pests involved has been handled in the past with both Varroa and tracheal coming into Maine. You had the problem with transport from State to State and the States in between. Government was involved, since the ones who worked it out were State Bee representatives. It was done fairly amicably with inspections mandated on both ends of the trips. One or two States along the way forbade any stops for pollination but, because the Feds regulate interstate commerce, could not stop the transit of bees. What I find interesting is the seeming desire of some Florida beekeepers to use AHB for pollination. I cannot see growers willing to accept that additional liability and the attendant bad publicity.We all may know that there is some AHB in colonies coming to Maine, but not because they are allowed but in spite of it. Make it formal and good luck getting past Jacksonville, much less any other Southern State. You would have the Feds move in and border controls to keep AHB in check in Florida. CCD may be hurting beekeepers and AHB may be a solution, but Public safety, perceived or real, trumps CCD every time. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:58:54 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron & Eefje Subject: Re: Nosema sampling In-Reply-To: <10bf01c831d9$5ea5af40$3eaa5142@MyPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While on the subject of Nosema: Some of us should perhaps be made aware of the fact that the Nosematidae family has through history produced about 100 names of which Nosema apis Zander and Nosema ceranae are just 2. Most have their own hosts, spore sizes, coils in the spore etc. and some can even find their way inside us humans! About two years ago I made a study of the Nosema family and collected some of the information in a spreadsheet that can now be found at: http://resurfacingscan.be/bee/enosema.htm I don't believe that anyone else has ever put "them" side by side in this way....... Pleasenot, I lost the most recent spreadsheet and some data in a computer crash a year ago, so some reference links got lost...if anyone wondered. Ron van Mierlo ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:31:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: African Origin of Honey Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Many people have recently argued that, after a century of extraordinary productivity, the concept of the gene has begun to outlive its usefulness. Among the reasons generally given is the great difficulty that we encounter today in trying to reach any sort of consensus about what a gene actually is. Here is what we read in a recent issue of Nature: > "Where the meaning of most four-letter words is all too clear, that of gene is not. The more expert scientists become in molecular genetics, the less easy it is to be sure about what, if anything, a gene actually is." -- Helen Pearson SEE: "Beyond the Gene" Evelyn Fox Keller, David Harel PLoS ONE 2(11): e1231 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:03:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Migratory beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill wrote>>>Make it formal and good luck getting past Jacksonville, much less any other Southern State. You would have the Feds move in and border controls to keep AHB in check in Florida.<<<<< Just how would you check the million hives that move to almonds? How many move to blueberries, 60,000? To think that federal or any other troops could check this many colonies doesn't seem to be in reality. It seems to me that all this talk about migratory beekeeping is a waste. It's here to stay and we need to figure out how to live with it, not blame it for all the ills it no doubt moves around. Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:37:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: AHB Origin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Marron wrote: >>>> If they went to the desert they needed to become smaller and be able to >survive long spells of hot, dry weather.<<<< >Here's a great chance for a scientist/math major type to chime in and prove that larger bees hold more moisture per unit of mass. Well, that's not me. But maybe you'd like to try to explain why A. m. lamarckii (Egypt) and A. m. yemenitica (all across African from West Sahara to Saudi Arabia) are the smallest bees and the bees of the colder climates (A. m. carnica, etc.) are the biggest? And don't tell me it's because they were artificially enlarged by honeycomb foundation. I don't buy that one. But remember, the colony is the unit, and the make or break period in northern climes is probably winter, when the bees are inside. As for the desert bees, it may be colonies that can shrink down to very small units and bounce back that are favored ... pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:12:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Young Subject: Re: Nosema sampling In-Reply-To: <474DE49E.4080604@tele2.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:58 PM 11/28/2007, Ron & Eefje wrote: >While on the subject of Nosema: Interesting spreadsheet. Do you have any information on which essential oils can be used as a treatment against Nosema apis and other Nosema species? Are there any dose recommendations for the essential oils? Thanks, Jim Young ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************