From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:59:57 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.1 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D04274909C for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFkpJ7016612 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0712B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 113912 Lines: 2656 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:31:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: CCD question from Europe(Non chem super storage) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit .Bob wrote: > Small beekeepers use para crystals to protect comb for the most part but > most (not all) large beekeepers use a form of phosdin gas or the product > in > tablets. many brand names are sold in the U.S. and around the world. Bob, I may to try to bring this up on an annual basis since I think it is such a great idea that cuts down on chemical usage: With , at least, shallow supers even with the blackest comb, I cross stack the supers, ensuring I have a little light in the room.My light is supplied solely by the sun. My experience in North Alabam(and I have heard others from different locations who concur) is that besides using rat poison-and I am working to eliminate that- one can safely store supers without any fear of significant wax moth damage(say, less than 1%) Without any chemicals. I have done this for at least 5 years , and have friends that have done it for decade. We have not , as far as I am aware of, had CCD in Alabama. I know that was not the exact topic pusued, but I think it may be useful to some John Horton ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 23:29:42 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: phostoxin In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Peter Does it mean it is safe? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 23:36:16 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: drosophila : Usefull for bee inmunolgy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Here is a good compendium of Dhorosphyla studies. Any usefull use for Apis M.? http://www.nature.com/nature/focus/drosophila/index.html -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 19:25:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: a e Subject: bird control = Merops In-Reply-To: <003601c83870$3611adc0$8680a9d1@pkeating> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Peter, In British Guiana (now called Guyana) snakes were used. Sincerely, Abbas --- Peter wrote: > Greetings, > does anyone in the group have any experience with controlling bird predators > in tropical climates? Specifically Merops. > I would be grateful for any information, which could be sent directly, to > save cluttering Bee-L. > Peter > > ****************************************************** > * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * > * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * > ****************************************************** > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 09:07:53 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: bird control = Merops MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In Cyprus they use shotguns. Best regards Roger White Cyprus. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 17:49:05 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: phostoxin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Does it mean it is safe? At this stage there is no reason to believe it is not safe. Phostoxin breaks down to an aluminium powder so you have to make sure that the phostoxin is applied as per instructions. If you get the aluminium powder into the combs, you will end up with aluminium residue in your honey. Otherwise there are no residues. You have to make sure you air the supers before using them. Phostoxin is not something to use in a home situation. Here we when you purchase it, you have to take it home in the back of a ute (pickup for those in the USA) as you are not allow to take in home in a sedan vehicle. Follow the instructions and it works well. However I prefer to use a refrigerated container to keep wax moth and small hive beetle at bay. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 07:04:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Green Subject: Midwest Beekeeper - Free Download In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5E846CD3 The Nov-Dec issue of Midwest Beekeeper is available for free download at www.IndianaBeekeepingSchool.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1177 - Release Date: 12/7/2007 1:11 PM ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 06:42:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Propolis May Help Flowers Last Longer in Beeswax Vase MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Propolis May Help Flowers Last Longer in Beeswax Vase The Honeycomb Vase By Alice Rawsthorn, The New York Times, 12/8/2007 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/12/propolis-may-help-flowers-last-longer.html ...Libertiny is convinced that flowers last longer in them, because beeswax contains propolis, an antibacterial agent that protects against biological decay. "We found out by accident," he explains. "We had a bouquet, which was too big for the beeswax vase, so we put half of the flowers in a glass vase. We noticed the difference after a week or so. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 07:53:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Smith Subject: Re: phostoxin In-Reply-To: <001b01c8396e$d06d9f10$c993453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [BEE-L] phostoxin > Does it mean it is safe? California requires a hazmat certified transport Someone should explain the mode of operation of this chemical--directly related to safety... Jim Smith State of Jefferson ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 09:58:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: phostoxin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Does it mean it is safe? > California requires a hazmat certified transport > Someone should explain the mode of operation of this chemical--directly > related to safety... The pill like tablets are held in aluminum flasks. About 30-60 minutes after a flask is opened the tablets slowly begin to give off hydrogen phosphide gas and continue to do so for many hours. So if you are involved in a car wreck while carrying Phostoxin you have about 30 minutes to spare before the pills give off dangerous gas. BUT if the pills get wet with water, they will catch fire immediately and spraying water on the fire will just enhance it. Most of California's almonds and other nuts and some dried fruits are fumigated at one time or another with hydrogen phosphide gas. Fumigated foods are subject to immediate insect reinfestation because the hydrogen phosphide gas doesn't leave any residue. Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 15:17:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: latest CCD hyperbole Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://media.www.lugazette.com/media/storage/paper816/news/2007/12/05/News/The- Honeybee.Hunt-3134172.shtml Dr. Gnanambal Naidoo, an assistant professor in the department of biology at Langston, is disturbed by the disappearance of so many honeybees. Naidoo said that colony numbers seen after this winter will be important to determine the extent of the problem. "Based on spring 2008 scout [surveyed] bee numbers, new strategies to address CCD will become evident and put into action," she said. There is talk of the possible crossing of honeybees with Africanized bees since the latter seems to be resistant to CCD. This will be one method of raising colonies to replenish dwindling ones." "If honeybee numbers continue to die at the same rates documented from 1989 to 1996, managed honeybees will cease to exist in the United States by 2035-completely wiping out fruit and vegetable production," warns Dr. May R. Berenbaum, head of the department of entomology at the University of Illinois. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 17:47:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] bird control = Merops MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Wayne Young [mailto:wfy1@verizon.net] Sent: Sat 2007.12.08 16:52 Hi Peter, I had a summer tanager eating some of my bees last summer.I placed a plastic owl near my hives,and the bird left the next day.If you can`t = find a fake owl probably a hawk might do as well. Wayne Young ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 19:41:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: American Bee Journal & Bee Culture Editors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, Looking information concerning who the editors were for these magazines since the first issue, and years spent as editor. Thanks in advance! Best Wishes, Joe ~ http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles FeralBeeProject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 03:12:10 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: CCD question from Europe(Non chem super storage) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...on an annual basis since I think it is such a great idea that cuts down on chemical usage: With , at least, shallow supers even with the blackest comb, I cross stack the supers, ensuring I have a little light in the room. In parts of Europe, beekeepers often hang deep frames in open air under makeshift roofs. There is very little, if any, moth damage. Perhaps it's the light. It occured to me that perhaps yellow jackets and wasps gain access to moth larvae and remove them as food. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 22:39:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: phostoxin In-Reply-To: <475ADB29.5BBE@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Paul & All, Thanks to all which provided information to the list. Fumigated foods are subject > to immediate insect reinfestation because the > hydrogen phosphide gas doesn't leave any residue. We have always been told there is no residue but I wonder. A friend of mine has a blood disorder and his doctor thinks exposure to phostoxin might be responsible. The only exposure he has had has been in handling comb or going in areas a long time after the initial treatment. he hired the chemical applied. Another friend uses the phostoxin in Nebraska but hired the gas applied to his container. I think in certain states not everyone can get nor apply phostoxin but I do not know that for sure. I checked into the gas bottles at the local gas (welding etc.) supplier and they said they stocked the gas but I decided to use para on my stored supers in container. 6 pounds does a 40 foot container if the inside vents are duck taped shut. A couple years ago when unloading I found a mouse nest. when unloading. I could not believe he had survived. Then I found a hole he had chewed in the one inch cedar floor. I figure when he found himself trapped in the container he chewed his way out. Then he started coming and going from looking at the hole. Ever see the movie "Mouse Hunt". Very funny movie! My friend in Florida s buildings contain around 20,000 deep supers each . Once the supers are inside the building the building is gassed with bottles of phosphide gas. Takes three 100 pound bottles I believe to fumigate 20,000 supers. The building is 50 feet wide and 150 feet long I believe. The entire building is coated (on the outside) with around six inches of spray foam to make airtight. Strange looking to say the least! Before phostoxin cyanide was used (even by the bee labs) to store comb and kill hives. We were told cyanide left no residue either. Cyanide is still in use in many part of the world and I suspect in the U.S. as beekeepers were busted a couple years ago with drums of cyanide and fines were over a 100,000 dollars U.S.. The papers (and some beekeeping publications) said the use was most likely varroa control. I don't think so! Comb fumigation and killing off hives like has been done for decades would be my guess. Comb is a sink for chemicals. I gave my opinion to the beekeeper from Europe that phostoxin leaves no residue but I could find no research on the net to support the "no residue claim' voiced by Paul. can you point to any research Paul where comb has been tested after fumigation with phostoxin? I found information like Peter posted but not the actual research showing testing (which should have been done to get the product approved for comb used to store honey) Although cyanide crystals were sold for decades by bee supply houses in the U.S.for use to store comb and kill off hives I was always told the product was never registered for use on comb. True or false? If the product was registered why was the registration dropped? Residue issues? In response to Brian's CCD post: If there is a positive side to CCD it would have to be the industry taking a hard look at all the current large scale beekeeping practices. I personally welcome any and all research into honeybees. The USDA-ARS has always been a friend of the commercial beekeeper but they seem to always be late at finding problems *before* they become problems. Examples would be KBV, IAPV and N. ceranae to name the most current missed finds. On the plus side Dr. Pamela Gregory (USDA-ARS Weslaco, Texas) did research which proved HFCS shortened the life span of honey bees. However she only repeated the 1974 research done at the USDA-ARS ( Tucson, Arizona) with the same results. Unlike when the first papers ( Considerations in selecting Sugars for Feeding to Honeybees ABJ ) of Roy J. Barker were published in the seventies the industry took notice of Pamela's research and a large part of large beekeepers now feed sucrose. You can find the research in the article I did for ABJ last April ( I believe from memory) about the Weslaco Bee lab. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 07:18:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: latest CCD hyperbole Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian If you read the article you cited, you would note that it is a student newspaper. (The LU Gazette is published weekly except during extended school breaks and examination periods). Our hapless reporter cobbled a story together using old news and misquotes. For example, this: > If honeybee numbers continue to die at the same rates documented from 1989 to 1996, managed honeybees will cease to exist in the United States by 2035 - completely wiping out fruit and vegetable production Berenbaum has been widely quoted as saying "If honeybees numbers continued to decline at the rates documented from 1989 to 1996, managed honeybees ... will cease to exist in the United States by 2035." Which is true, of course, that's just simple math. But they aren't declining at a steady rate. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 23:05:17 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: phostoxin and paradichlorobenzene MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote > I decided to use para on my stored supers in container. If this is paradichlorobenzene (PDB) then this definitely leaves a residue which comes out in the honey when extracted. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 07:02:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Video: Bee Sting 'Cures Pain' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Video: Bee Sting 'Cures Pain' http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/12/video-bee-sting-cures-pain.html Doctors in Beijing believe they have found a cure for rheumatism, arthritis, back pain, and even a way to improve liver problems and cancers.It is called bee venom therapy, part of apitherapy... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 09:28:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carl & Virginia Webb Subject: comb storage (Phostoxin and Para.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For the past 20 years I have stored empty supers by cross stacking them = in an open shed. I have used no other moth repellent. Currently there = are approximately 700 supers stored in the shed. Each spring I will = have only a few combs damaged and those will be ones where brood was = reared or with large amounts of pollen.. There is more apt to be damage = from mice than from moths. I have no need to use moth poisons on the = combs. Carl Webb Georgia ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 11:17:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: phostoxin and paradichlorobenzene In-Reply-To: <004801c83a64$267e9670$ca94453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If this is paradichlorobenzene (PDB) then this definitely leaves a residue > which comes out in the honey when extracted. I agree phostoxin and even cyanide gas leave less residue than paradichlorobenzene. However Para is approved for use on comb in the U.S. and if aired properly on comb without stored honey then residues are small if any. The idea with all fumigants is to use enough product to kill all pests and eggs and then the beekeeper needs to prevent reinfestation. Not to maintain a constant supply of para in the stack (although some beekeepers actually do this. Wax moth eggs can be found in many supers brought into the honey processing area in late fall. Add heat and a week and you get wax moth hatching many times. In fall you can see wax moths around hives hoping for a chance to enter and lay eggs. I agree with Carl that if only trying to protect a small number of supers and if content with some comb loss then ways exist other than fumigants. However using my friends example he had around $400,000 worth of uninsured comb in the building in Florida. hard not to protect your investment with a legal approved program. Another friend had a used semi trailer full of deep supers in Nebraska. he had saw my container method and thought he would do the same. Only a ocean container is very different than a used semi van body. He hired the van body fumigated with phostoxin but the van body was not sealed (he later found out) and had a few openings around a quarter inch. Wax moths got in and ruined most his comb. Huge loss in many ways. In the Northern part of the prime beekeeping areas honey is pulled many times after wax moths are a problem and no treatment is necessary other than letting the comb go below freezing for a period of time. Florida is a different story. After my honey house fire in December of 1996 I was able to buy insurance for my stored drums of honey and my supers against everything BUT *wax moths and small hive beetle*. The firewall I had built held against the fire so my supers in the next room did not go up in smoke. After the fire I went to container storage away from the building which protects the comb better but I still insure. Losing your comb can put you out of business and despite prices seen in bee magazines for comb most is old junk with loose corners and 20 year old comb. Most my comb is less than five years old and in new boxes. I would have to put a high dollar value at today's prices for a new box,frames with freshly drawn comb in a treated box with a coat of primer and two coats of a good paint. Not the kind of supers you see advertised in bee magazines for 12-15 dollars U.S.. The hobby beekeeper with a few supers can run through the freezer in a trash bag super with frames and then store with all entrance points to pests sealed. hard to do on a large scale. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 15:47:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] comb storage (Phostoxin and Para.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From : Thomas Kaechele [mailto:praderas@gmail.com] Sent: Sun 2007.12.09 14:12 Friends We have a 600 hive + operation in Uruguay. We have been operating for the last 15 years without greater damage in the overwintered combs. Our way to deal with moths is to put nine combs in a shallow or a full super, stand them sideways (short end), in close contact one super and the next, in a well aerated shed. In this way we build a 3 or 4 super high stack. To avoid them falling apart, put some boards on the last row. No need to tie them up. The shed should have open ends, to assure a strong air flow, at all = times. Low temperatures, and mostly low moisture content in the combs will deter the moth eggs to hatch, until the supers are set on the hives, then it is up to the bees to control the moths. I agree that mice are a greater problem than moths, but to deal with them you must have cats. Thomas Kaechele San Jos=E9, Uruguay ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 15:49:35 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: CCD question from Europe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob I have been on constant travel, so I'm a few days out on e-mail returns. 1) We've seen and sampled CCD cases in AZ, ID, WA, CA, and MN, with reports of it in TX, CO, ND, and FL. One change this fall, far greater number of colonies completely empty, even the queen left. 2) Some east coast bee operations showed high levels of paradichlorobenzene in the wax - so heavy handed wax moth control isn't helping - but its NOT in all of the CCD operations. Phosdin gas -- we'll have to look again at the volatiles, don't remember seeing it. Jerry **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:24:02 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: phostoxin and paradichlorobenzene MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > However Para is approved for use on comb in the U.S. and if aired properly > on comb without stored honey then residues are small if any. Para is not registered for use in Australia. In fact the last State to have it registered has withdrawn the registration just over a year ago. I doubt that airing will remove the residue. There was a case in Australia recently where some supers that had been treated with para many years ago were used and the honey still showed up para residue. Most supers in Australia are stored as "stickies" so it could be that is adding to the problem. However, if they were to be "dried" by allowing them to be robbed, then there is the risk of spreading disease. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 19:13:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD question from Europe In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jerry & All, > 1) We've seen and sampled CCD cases in AZ, ID, WA, CA, and MN, with > reports > of it in TX, CO, ND, and FL. One change this fall, far greater number of > colonies completely empty, even the queen left. If the hives are empty (which is not uncommon in fall in the Midwest as those hives have went queenless and the bees have drifted to other hives) are those hives classed as CCD? So far I have got reports of a single large beekeeper with serious hive loss. he has not returned my calls yet so hard to confirm. I have heard of a Texas beekeeper with hives like you describe but he raised his own queens this year and suspects queen failure. The country in Europe is seeing dwindling hives but not CCD symptoms like 7 frames of brood and almost no bees. . Phosdin gas -- we'll have to look again at the > volatiles, > Thanks Jerry! I will report what you find to the beekeeper in Europe. Thanks for all your years of help to beekeepers! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 02:04:41 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Fw: Re: [BEE-L] CCD question from Europe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>1) We've seen and sampled CCD cases... One change this fall, far greater number of colonies completely empty, even the queen left. A good friend of mine said two of his hives moved to goldenrod on the edge of suburbia and farms, absconded in October and November. Might be due to the heavy yellow jacket predation this year although it made me think the vicinity of the agricultural land (or rather the chemicals used on it) might be a factor. Bees must be driven pretty hard to abscond right before winter... Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 21:14:18 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: CCD question from Europe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We're working up our observations of CCD over a full year. The symptoms may change somewhat with season. For example, a CCD colony in the fall or winter, when the queen has shut down or only producing a small amount of brood looks very different from a CCD colony in mid-summer when the queen is laying as fast as she can. In the first case, you get depopulated colonies; in the latter you get what appears to be slow growing colonies. Excess of brood occurs during seasons when queen was laying right up to the time of collapse. This symptom is not necessarily true in an area with limited forage and the queen more or less shut down for the season. If the colony has throttled back on brood in anticipation of winter, and the colony then collapses, you may not see an excess of brood. The absence of dead/dying bees, the lack of robbing, the lack of invasion by pests seem to be more consistent symptoms. Again, we've seen some variation -- CCD colonies in mid-summer will be robbed, but you've got to trigger the robbing. We've had some of our own colonies collapse with CCD, recover, then collapse again during mid-summer, fall, and early winter. Symptoms change a bit with season relative to egg-laying/brood rearing status and time of collapse. In all cases, the collapse is a loss of older bees. Finally, many of the most recent collapsed colonies from which we obtained samples had N. ceranae. Jerry **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 01:10:27 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Mice control (comb storage) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree with Thomas K from Uruguay about the way of stacking to control wax moths. Put the first and last box of cord with head of frames facaing inside the cord. For controling mice apart from cats it is usefull to put concret powder with wheat flour. Mice disapear very fast!!! Ahhh, put the water out side the shed so they do not smell bad when dead. > -- > Juanse Barros J. > APIZUR S.A. > Carrera 695 > Gorbea - CHILE > +56-45-271693 > 08-3613310 > http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ > juanseapi@gmail.com > ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 09:51:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD question from Europe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 21:14:18 EST, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: >Finally, many of the most recent collapsed colonies from which we obtained >samples had N. ceranae. > >Jerry > I'm confused why we are not just calling CCD, Nosema Ceranae? Its found in all CCD samples and the symptoms of N. Ceranae appear to fit your descriptions. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:16:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Mice control (comb storage) In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10712092010m4fe42024yea86223e1e29d6e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Concrete powder with wheat flour? Very interesting. I've tolerated a high population of mice, but don't favor conventional poison because of the large volume of snakes that inhabit my storage shed. I can't wait to give this a try. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 11:04:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: CCD and N. Ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ames Farms asks: I agree that N. Ceranae is a possible candidate for CCD, but we don't know whether its a cause or a consequence of CCD, or maybe it is just coincidental. No one has shown that N. ceranae causes CCD, that requires us to follow a procedure call Koch's Principles. In essence, we have to extract the pathogen, introduce it into healthy colonies, induce CCD, then recover N. ceranae. Our Bozeman partner lab just got the equipment and primers in place to positively identify ceranae versus apis and will be working on culturing the pathogen under a grant received last week from the CA beekeepers. Regardless of my personal opinions, we can't yet say that N. ceranae causes CCD. I can say, it certainly is associated with the syndrome in the colonies that we've sampled. FYI, in S. African, a combination of a specific virus and N. ceranae has been named 'suicide disease'. FYI, Randy Oliver has a good overview of N. ceranae in the Dec ABJ, and Dr. Robert Cramer at Bozeman is also looking at alternative fungicides - question is still open about the effectiveness of fumidil. We're all working together on this pathogen - regardless of the role it plays with respect to CCD, it in itself appears to be a problem - we tend to believe the Spanish investigators, especially in our drier, warmer, western states - where the climate is often similar to that of Spain. Jerry **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 09:51:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: phostoxin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > but I could find no research on the net to support the > "no residue claim' voiced by Paul. can you point to any research > Paul where comb has been tested after fumigation with phostoxin? Bob, I don't know of any research where comb has been tested after fumigation, but testing has been conducted on dozens of other foods including sugary foods like dried fruits. In these tests phosphine residues "will typically be non-detectable with adequate aeration, i.e., <0.004 ppm." http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/fumigant/aluminum-phosphide/PhosphinePest.html Adequate aeration generally = 48 hours. Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:26:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: Mice control (comb storage)-Question for Juanse barros MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: John & Christy Horton [mailto:johnhort@bellsouth.net] Sent: Mon 2007.12.10 16:09 Juanse wrote ... it is usefull to put concret powder with wheat flour... How fo you mix it Juanse? Gracias! John Horton ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:33:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: CCD vs Nosema Caaranae In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 21:14:18 EST, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: >Finally, many of the most recent collapsed colonies from which we obtained samples had N. ceranae. > >Jerry > I'm confused why we are not just calling CCD, Nosema Ceranae? Its found in all CCD samples and the symptoms of N. Ceranae appear to fit your descriptions. Look at the highlighted words in both statements above. There is a contradiction. Nowhere can I see where Jerry said "all". He said "many". That's not to say that all the colonies might have had NC. I don't know and can't say. But in what I've read in the commentaries here I can't recall anyone saying "all" the collapsed colonies that were called CCD affected had Nosema Ceranae. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:55:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Mice control (comb storage)-Question for Juanse Barros MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Juanse, How do you mix the concrete and wheat flour to make this rat killing mixture? Gracias! John Horton ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:21:43 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: CCD vs Nosema Ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Based on the information I manage from Randy Oliver and Mariano Higes et al - that I can not disclose - we must take all available measures to control Nosemas Apis and Ceranae. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:32:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD vs Nosema Caaranae Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:33:05 -0800, Mike Stoops wrote: But in what I've read in the commentaries here I can't recall anyone saying "all" the collapsed colonies that were called CCD affected had Nosema Ceranae. > >Mike in LA Without getting too convoluted in who said what when please refer to: http://bee-quick.com/reprints/practical.pdf Mr Fisher references the paper “A Metagenomic Survey of Microbes in Honey Bee Colony Collapse Disorder” (“Science”, 09/06/07) and says " Although the authors dismissed Nosema as a possible correlating factor for CCD, their tests found Nosema to be surprisingly common. Nearly universal. Every apiary affected by CCD was found to have Nosema, and 90% of them had both types of Nosema at the same time. Even among apiaries said to be “free of CCD”, 92% of them were found to have Nosema ceranae, and 47% of them had Nosema apis. " Apiaries Apiaries With CCD Free Of CCD Nosema apis 90% 47.6% Nosema ceranae 100% 92.1% ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:46:18 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Mice control (comb storage)-Question for Juanse Barros In-Reply-To: <002401c83b88$24855cd0$7fe84cd8@HortonFamily> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline John Horton asks : How do you mix the concrete and wheat flour to make this rat killing mixture? By hand I should say :) I do not really know, say 50-50 then place like a cup of the mixture on the floor on different places of the shed. In winter I refill each 15 days or so. And each time I see mices or find fresh eaces (cacas, drops?) I put again. If they do not eat on the shift it I take it out. If it gets wet I take it out. I use to do it with wheat grain but mices learn and leave the portland cement. Now I do it with wheat flour and it works much better. You can probable try with other palatable material to mix with the cement. It is easy to see if it works you find Mice Monuments hard like rocks!!! -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:46:36 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry said: > Regardless of my personal opinions, we can't yet say that N. ceranae causes > CCD. I can say, it certainly is associated with the syndrome in the colonies > that we've sampled. If you look at what data has been published so far, BOTH kinds of Nosema have been consistently present in CCD colonies at the same time. Are you also finding both kinds of Nosema in every CCD case, or have you seen CCD colonies with only one kind of Nosema or the other? Paper: http://bee-quick.com/reprints/dapaper.pdf Supplemental Data: http://bee-quick.com/reprints/dedetails.pdf English Translation: http://bee-quick.com/reprints/reads.pdf > FYI, in S. African, a combination of a specific virus and N. ceranae has > been named 'suicide disease'. Do you know which virus this is? Also, given that the meeting is going on this afternoon, I guess that it can be confirmed that Ian Lipkin, the fellow from Columbia U. who did the "metagenomics" work associated with the unfortunate paper in "Science" claiming that IAPV was "strongly associated" with CCD, (and "wink-wink, nudge-nudge, we are not saying it causes CCD, BUT...") pulled out of the Entomological Society of America symposium on CCD. http://esa.confex.com/esa/2007/techprogram/session_6417.htm My understanding is that they suddenly said that they are "too busy". He didn't even send a grad student to represent the group. Could the actual reason have been this data? http://www.dadant.com/documents/ChenandEvansarticlefromDec07ABJ.pdf Sure hope this wasn't the cause: http://bee-quick.com/reprints/claims_collapse.pdf ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:43:12 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae Comments: To: james.fischer@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James We are mainly seeing N. ceranae. However, Dr. Cramer's ability to differentiate apis from ceranae is a recent development, so we don't have data from a lot of samples - yet. FYI, last week we sent Robb Cramer samples from two or our own collapsing colonies in MT - the colonies were going down last week in our storage shed. One looked like classic CCD, the other had all of the visible signs of N. apis. Curious to see the results from Robb. Also talked today to a ND beekeeper, down to 2500 colonies from 6500, with no end in sight. He did his own sampling for Nosema - some colonies and yards were heavily infected, others tested negative. However, I assume that Randy Oliver is correct -- where, when, what part of a colony is sampled, how many bees are examined, all influence end result of sampling. Obviously sampling protocols are something that we need to address if we are to get reliable data. Jerry And yes, I'm being intentionally cautious. N. ceranae is certainly in U.S. bees, sometimes at remarkably high levels. My gut sense is that it is part of the CCD syndrome. Even if it isn't, we need to get a handle on it. N. ceranae by itself is a big enough problem, if we believe the folks from Spain. Finally, as to suicide disease - I'll buy dinner for anyone who can help me relocate the reference. In April, when we found black queen cell virus and sacbrood in some of the CCD bees, I did a major Google Search. Somewhere down about 2500 listings, I found one paper that termed a mix of one of these viruses and Nosema - suicide disease. I've looked for it again, but can't seem to shake it out - although I've not waded through 2500 references to find it. I should have marked it at the time, but that was before I knew just how common N. ceranae was in U.S. bees. So, I know I saw the reference, but I can't put my hands on it. **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:01:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae In-Reply-To: <000a01c83c04$a1f36dc0$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, One of the first business I ran and owned was a speed shop (five years). I also worked at an automotive dealership for a year and was sent through the General motors training school. Ways to diagnosis problems were taught. In tests we were presented with automobiles with several to many problems and judged on the amount of time taken to solve the problems. The next year my brother won the Kansas State Chrysler trouble shooting contest at the high school level (after being schooled by me and still has the trophy). I had high hopes for my brother in the world of business but he went to school for over a decade and became a corporate 6 figure lawyer and vice president of the firm. However having a brother which is a famous lawyer and being able to get free legal advice has come in handy the several times I have strayed outside the law or been involved in a lawsuit. When faced with problems you simply start to fix the most glaring first. When you fix all the problems then the car runs great. What we were taught was that when several problems are the source of the problem then symptoms can be very different than a single problem. In the case of CCD it would be nosema and in my opinion mite control. from speaking with beekeepers for my current article these were the two problems they worked hard to control in 2006/2007 and all said they had the best bees in years. Despite what many on this list have pointed out concerning stress ( number of moves etc.) and nutrition ( pollen patties etc.) the beekeepers I spoke with felt getting control of varroa and using treatments for nosema control could be the reason for their best bees in years. I know many beekeepers are out of the loop and still use Apistan ( totally useless in many areas)for varroa control and say they do not *see* signs of nosema ( widespread to almost epidemic in parts of the U.S.) My point is that I am asked to help through the year many of these beekeepers. I assure the list an hour of discussion with me and their beekeeping will improve. > If you look at what data has been published so far, BOTH kinds of Nosema > > have been consistently present in CCD colonies at the same time. I don't disagree! However the spore count is high enough either one alone could have killed the colony. As I have said before I am very tired of researchers calling bees healthy just because at the time of sample taking the hive appeared normal( despite serious nosema and virus issues). Also tired of seeing acedemics showing slides of blackened trachea and blown out tubules. The trend in 2008 is going to be (conversation with heads of many state beekeeping organizations such as georgia) is to bring in commercial beekeepers which are NOT having problems with their bees and let those beekeepers share what they are doing to keep their bees healthy. I have been asked to speak at the Georgia meeting ( which I could not schedule be might still show up) and two others. groups are wanting to hear from beekeepers like Randy oliver and Michael Palmer. When I first started writing for BC (two articles pending) and ABJ ( two articles pending) you could not get an article published about a non registered method of treatment ( even sugar dusting for varroa control or blowing tobacco smoke in the entrance_). I advised both editors ( as did many others ) that to keep pace with the fast changing world of beekeeping these articles need to be published. The days when Dee Lusby's article on small cell was butchered by acedemics is over. The articles of randy Oliver are for beekeepers information. I know from being a friend of randy that he researchs carefully advice he publishes. Not all beekeepers are computer literate. In fact I would guess most are not BUT almost all serious beekeepers read either one or the other of the bee magazines. Iam very pleased both editors of the bee magazines have seen fit to publish many articles. Even some on FGMO which I personally think is a waste of time. Beekeepers have come up with more solutions to our beekeeping problems than researchers ever have. The FDA moves too slow for many and will not accept documented research from around the world. If your information on beekeeping problems comes only from research papers then consider what one bee magazine editor confirmed to me. quote: " the beekeeping grapevine is around three years ahead of published data". I heard tonight of a South Dakota beekeeper found around fifty percent of his hives dead when unloaded in Texas. Nothing new here as happens every year in some commercial operations but the only Texas case I have heard of and the only one spoke of at the Texas bee meeting last night. Lets see 2 million hives in the U.S. and 500 have crashed? No problems (CCD) were reported at the MSBA meeting. Nor at the KHPA meeting. despite what some have said many now are more likely to say in a bee meeting they have got CCD because it can mask poor beekeeping and not getting your treatments on in time. New mysterious problem is no fault of mine. Used to be called winter kill but research has shown bees can handle cold if properly prepared and healthy. The above is my opinion and not based on beekeeping researcher science but based on conversations with many many beekeepers over the last several months. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:39:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Question: Are you also finding both kinds of Nosema in every CCD case? I've been curious about the same thing. The trend appears to be that ceranae completely displaces apis, and that in some areas, apis is apparently no longer present. I have not seen classic CCD, but I have looked at hundreds of nosema samples from my own operation, and colonies of others. I noticed that there is substantial variability in nosema spore morphology. Basically, they appear to come in two "flavors." I asked the Spanish lab about this, and they say that they can differentiate by eye--confirmed by PCR analysis. They sent me descriptions and photos, which exactly match the "flavors" that I've been observing. I will be sending samples off soon for PCR confirmation. Until then, I don't want to mislead anyone, so will not yet mention the differences I see until I can confirm. If I'm correct, than any fool with a scope can differentiate! However, if I am indeed seeing the species differences, then most of my colonies have N ceranae. A few have apis. I'm not sure about mixes, but will now start looking. I'm redoing my website, and will be posting nosema articles and photos--hopefully by the end of the week. The differences in spore morphology are obvious in my photos, but not identified. Randy Oliver California ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:57:21 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae In-Reply-To: <08a101c83c5f$cd753770$2daa5142@MyPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I spend a year and a half reading Bee-l through the web ( www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l) before subscribing to the list. On that time, exactly on june 8th I manage to send a question through Randy O. to the list. The post said: A friend in Chile has been experimenting with using bleach (sodium hypochlorite) in sugar syrup to control nosema. He would like to know if anyone else has heard of this. I still do not know if I have N.Apis or N.Ceranae in my colonies but I am absolutelly convinced that feeding sodium hipochlorite to the colonies help to control nosema. Randy: I can=B4t wait to see the pictures on your site! = to learn to differenciate between the twins!! If you do not want to use antibiotic on your colonies (like me) or find fumagilin too expensive, give a try to bleach. You can use it either on the syrup if feeding or dripple (drenching) in between the frames. If feeding put 500 ppm, if drippling put 2%. On both cases bleach desactivates very soon so you need to ensure that as many bees as posible will have its part of the solution. In that sense it is wiser to dripple (drench it). Repeat treatment as need minumin 3 weeks!!! I know D.Adams (subscribed to BEE-L) from USA have been using it with success, maybe he can explain further his results and method of application= . I also know a friend from argentina have been giving chlorine to his 2000 colonies and also report success (some 80 pound of honey and expecting a total of 200 pounds). I been giving my colonies chlorine and acetic acid (1 litre per dum of HFCS) and manage to grow from 700 colonies to 2000 colonie= s and still colecting honey. I also know Dr Higes from Spain will make a formal test of chlorine next northern hemisphere spring. I will love to ear from anyone of you giving it a try. saludos --=20 Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:09:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:43:12 EST, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: >FYI, last week we sent Robb Cramer samples from two or our own collapsing >colonies in MT - the colonies were going down last week in our storage shed. >One looked like classic CCD, the other had all of the visible signs of N. >apis. Curious to see the results from Robb. > last week it ranged below zero to mid teens F in the upper Midwest. as a stationary northern beekeeper, i'm curious that you're saying that CCD is affecting a clustered, broodless colony in winter? so you're saying they're vacating the hive in the shed? like en masse or dribbling out a few every day? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:38:23 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae In-Reply-To: <08a101c83c5f$cd753770$2daa5142@MyPC> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This is an interesting discussion. However I get the feeling that people want to tie dying hives to immediate presence of nosema and to a lesser extent, the presence of nosema to CCD. However this overlooks the mechanism of nosema's effect on the hive. Nosema's vegetative stage infects the gut thereby decreasing absorbtion of nutrients - more importantly - amino acids (protein building blocks). Higher infection, less absorbtion and vice versa. But with lots of the right pollen with good quantities of the right amino acids, bees are still able to absorb enough (or nearly enough) of the right protein building blocks - even with quite high infections. But poor pollen sources (or pollen lacking one or more essential amino acids) may cause a light infection to be a significant problem. Good protein bees live longer. Work done by Graham Klienschmidt in Australia in the 70s directly correlated raw crude protein levels of bees to lifespan. From memory, good protein (50%+) and workers lasted 6 weeks on a flow. Poor protein (less than 40%) and that didn't make it to 3 weeks with obvious implications for hive populations, winter bees, time to rebuild populations etc. (Doug Somerville has continued to build on this work and I highly recommend becoming familiar with these concepts. Look at http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/05-054sum.html) Bees without enough protein sources to feed brood are able to mine the protein in their own bodies to feed brood, so a short dearth of protein (or even a specific amino acid missing from the presently available pollen) can be overcome and hardly a hiccup is seen in the hive population as low protein bees give way to high protein bees once good protein sources become available. Likewise a short term nosema infection can present minmal effect on hive populations as long as the oncoming generations are able to receive sufficient protein of the right sort. The point here is that the collapse of the hive is not due to the immediate ravages of infection but rather the premature death of an entire genaration of bees (due to a greatly reduced longevity from poor protein levels) that may be one or more generations removed from the cause - and here we are talking nosema but it could be poor pollen source. By the time this happens, the nosema infection may be mostly history........ and insignificant enough to be overlooked as the smoking gun. Regards, Peter Bray PS It would be very interesting to test the raw crude protein levels of bees that are left after a CCD diagnosis. _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:51:49 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If I'm correct, than any fool with a scope can differentiate! I, for one, am happy that both Bob and Randy can call themselves correct at the same time. Yes, it is possible to see the difference between Nosema ceranae and Nosema apis, and this has been known for a bit. Problem is, to tell one from the other, you need a lot of experience looking at one or the other. Eric Mussen was the first (to my knowledge) to state that he had seen what, in the 20/20 vision of hindsight, should have prompted him to investigate further, but at the time, was cause for no more than a shoulder shrug about "strange looking" Nosema. After all, Nosema ceranae had been positioned as something that killed colonies in days, and we certainly did not have anything like that happening in US/Canada. It is going to take some training to get everyone doing their gross morphology consistently for Nosema, but the situation is nowhere near as embarrassing as it was with Varroa destructor versus Varroa jacobsoni, as the two kinds of Nosema do look very very similar. But on a practical level, the two problems are treated in the same way, so I am not sure what value differentiating would add to the process. > The trend appears to be that ceranae completely displaces apis Isn't this more of a function of when one looks at a hive, with Nosema apis "getting out of hand" in spring, while Nosema ceranae "gets out of hand" in summer? Has anyone seen any seasonal data to confirm the statement/claim about "seasonality"? > "the beekeeping grapevine is around three years ahead of published data". Like Nostradamus, the various beekeeping "grapevines" say so much that it impossible for them to have not included comments that later might seem to appear "insightful" in retrospect. It even has a name - "hindsight bias". But there is this little thing I like to call "data" that turns out to be kinda important to making actual forward progress. So, while the grapevine may seem 3 years ahead on selected things, it is also 25 years behind, in a apparel universe, and stuck in a black hole - all at the same time! Add the internet to the equation, and we end up with a good reason to invest in Reynolds Aluminum, maker of the closest readily-available thing to tin foil that can be made into a hat. The problem of favoring the fantastic over the plausible does not appear to be unique to beekeepers, it seems to be a general problem of the "marketplace of ideas" when the market has very few brokers of fact among all the completely bogus ideas floating around looking for completely open minds to wander into and take over. Or maybe the problem here is that the minds are "empty" rather than "open". :) When even the American Medical Association notices the problem, it seems clear that the problem is serious. http://tinyurl.com/yrkolo ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 18:38:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron & Eefje Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are we on the wrong track? Going on the recent posts from beekeepers on BEE-L the suggestion is given that the cause for the CCD has to be found in the presence of "Nosema ceranae" in our hives. But is that suggestion really correct? What then about a science magazine article like the recent one taken up by the Moray Beekeepers Association on their website at: http://www.moraybeekeepers.co.uk/ccd1.htm ? That describes the "Israeli acute paralysis virus" as a possible cause for CCD. Ron van Mierlo ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:38:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > However this overlooks the mechanism of nosema's effect on the hive. This is an excellent point. I have been wondering whether such an effect occurred in the French sunflower fields. the colony collapses that were blamed on Gaucho occurred at the same time that French bees were invaded by N ceranae. Sunflower pollen is noted as being nutritionally incomplete to bees. I've been wondering if nosema simply caused the massive colony deaths by exascerbating the problem of poor amino acid availability in the sunflowers. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:34:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all, Information relating to the behaviour of bees in hives whilst in storage (in my case, wintering in single, langstroth boxes in a temperature / ventilation regulated building) is difficult to come by. Activity varies a lot, ranging from tight clustering through to reasonable activity with casual suicide due to wandering over the front of boxes. Bee population loss seems to occur periodically with mass evacuation of individuals lasting for several days. Followed by inactivity. Jerry's passing comment indicating some activity that may be leading to colony loss needs to be developed - please more detail! Comments on how bees in wintering shed behave would be most welcome to read. Weather here in Southern Manitoba, Canada - General high pressure leading to daytime highs of around -15 to -20, reaching -30 degrees Celsius during the dark hours. Reasonable snow cover (40 cm). Bees being held at +4 degrees/50% relative humidity. Regards, Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:10:36 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > the suggestion is given that the cause for the CCD has to be found > in the presence of "Nosema ceranae" in our hives. > But is that suggestion really correct? No, it isn't - even the data published in "Science" (09/2007) shows that Nosema ceranae ALONE has been found in many hives that did not show CCD symptoms. What was striking was that every hive showing CCD symptoms tested positive for BOTH Nosema apis and Nosema ceranae, and this correlation was better than the correlation between CCD and IAPV that was the focus of the paper. Peter Bray offered: > But with lots of the right pollen with good quantities of the right > amino acids, bees are still able to absorb enough (or nearly enough) > of the right protein building blocks even with quite high infections > [levels of Nosema]. Peter thereby explains in his own words why reports of new cases of CCD dropped off during the summer months when nectar and pollen were in good supply, as a good bloom can make even the sickest hives look much better. What I don't know is if anyone has any data that contradicts my little theory about "Nosema apis + Nosema ceranae = CCD", but I am honor-bound to do my best to kill this idea before it grows legs and starts wandering around. :) > What then about a science magazine article like the recent one... > That describes the "Israeli acute paralysis virus" as a possible > cause for CCD. That specific speculation was utterly refuted only weeks later by the very next set of samples they pulled out of the refrigerator. Here's the paper: http://www.dadant.com/documents/ChenandEvansarticlefromDec07ABJ.pdf and here's the English translation: http://bee-quick.com/reprints/claims_collapse.pdf ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:23:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Nosema A/C MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit So far it is anecdotal that chlorine is effective against either of these nosemas. If it turns out that experiments prove it so great. On the other hand it may also be possible that some of the essential oils would be as effective with possibly longer exposed shelf life (slower outgassing) and possibly easier application methods, without syrup feeding and dribbling? Hopefully someone will take the time and effort to investigate this. I use oil of wintergreen in veg oil soaked napkins for trachea mites. Have next to zero nosema 'symptoms'. Not very scientific but at least a glimmer of possibly being effective. Alden Marshall ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 17:36:46 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The post said: A friend in Chile has been experimenting with using bleach > (sodium hypochlorite) in sugar syrup to control nosema. He would like to > know if anyone else has heard of this. The first point that stands out is what about residues of the sodium hypochlorite in the honey? Has any work been done in Chile to see if there are residues? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:37:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae In-Reply-To: <000101c83d0b$d37d06a0$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > What I don't know is if anyone has any data that contradicts my > little theory about "Nosema apis + Nosema ceranae = CCD", but > I am honor-bound to do my best to kill this idea before it grows > legs and starts wandering around. :) It could also be "Nosema apis and/or Nosema ceranae + X = CCD". That was one of the suppositions given to me since it fits with "Tracheal + Nosema = massive bee kill" which was observed in Maine many years back. So the X could be any stress factor like mites, drought, etc., but the underlying requirement is Nosema. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:52:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: Nosema A/C In-Reply-To: <008d01c83d40$73e5f230$0201a8c0@BLINE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Chlorine is used for surface disinfection. it is used to sterilize silkworm eggs from any nosema spores. For feeding bees to control nosema, Not sure. There is one study on acidified food and Nosema infection, Please check this paper Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:39:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill said: > So the X could be any stress factor like mites, drought, etc., but the > underlying requirement is Nosema. An attractive aspect of this hypothesis is that it could possibly explain the historical collapses prior to mites, especially if one takes into account that viral transmission in bees and other insects is closely associated with nosema infection. This hypothesis requires nothing but poor weather prior, and a reservoir of nosema and viruses (which bees have apparently always had at low levels). It would also handily accept periodic viral mutations that could cause temporary epidemics. Nosema infection creates a positive feedback loop. Poor nutrition makes bees more susceptible to nosema. Nosema then impairs digestive function, hampering nutritional uptake. Nutritionally-stress bees are then even more susceptible to nosema... At some point, viruses might then reach critical levels to kick off an epidemic (see my article on mite population dynamics). The combination of bees then dying at an early age, due to nosema and virus infections, would lead to rapid collapse of the adult bee population. The presence of mites, pesticides, and other stressors would serve to exacerbate the potential for collapse. Let me make it clear that this is a hypothesis to be tested. I am not in any way claiming that this explanation has merit until tested. Perhaps we could hear from any lurking researchers how the data fit this hypothesis. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:40:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Nosema A/C In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems a bit counterintuitive to feed both an acid (acetic acid) and a base (bleach- sodium hypochlorite) since you will get a chemical reaction and end up not getting the benefit expected. What probably will happen is the ph of the bleach will overpower the weak acid and you will end up with an alkaline solution, so it would have been better feeding the bleach solution alone. The paper Medhat cited is interesting since it confirms another guess that just adding acid to the bees gut will make little difference since their food, honey, is acidic. But it would be interesting to see what would happen if a base were added to neutralize the acid. Pollen seems to be a Nosema control, and some pollens are better than others. It might be that some pollen is more alkaline and lead to an less hospitable environment for Nosema. Lots of guesses. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:46:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: Acids and bleach... In-Reply-To: <47617CB1.8080502@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just as an aside, years and years ago I used to be a janitor and there were two cleaning agents on the cart I pushed around...one a bleach, one an acid. There were huge warning labels on both that said DO NOT MIX them when cleaning bathroom fixtures (which I was cleaning at the time), because the combination resulted in the formation of chlorine gas...somewhat of a health hazard for the applicator...and I would suspect for the bees. Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 Kim@BeeCulture.com www.BeeCulture.com No virus found by AVG at Root Candles in this outgoing email. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.1/1183 - Release Date: 12/13/2007 9:15 AM ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:30:11 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae In-Reply-To: <00f001c83d5a$eb8cbfc0$ad32643b@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The first point that stands out is what about residues of the sodium hypochlorite in the honey? Has any work been done in Chile to see if there are residues? I agree with you Trevor in the sense that there are potencially residues of chlorine detectables (paradiclorobeneze leaves chlroine), BUT, if applied with the precaution of fumagilin, which residues do you think could be? Juanse ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 07:35:46 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Nosema A/C MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is one study on acidified food and Nosema infection, I notice that there is no data on the PH of the solution once the acetic acid was added. As honey is acid in the first place, what effect on PH does the adding of the acetic acid have? Would the solution of sugar syrup and acetic acid be as acidic as natural honey? Also there is a variation in PH of various honeys. There is a quote to say that honey is in the range of 3.2 - 4.5. If the theory is that the acidification of the sugar solution would help reduce nosema, why wouldn't another acidic food i.e. honey be just as effective? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:49:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: Acids and bleach... In-Reply-To: <8518F15BB956014C90B2E2CC0D4C4F9F02C3AF24@w2k3telnet.root.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Kim mentioned: Just as an aside, chlorine gas...somewhat of a health hazard for the applicator...and I would suspect for the bees. How about acid and sugar forming HMF. Isn't it toxic to bees. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:53:09 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Nosema A/C In-Reply-To: <47617CB1.8080502@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Probably my email was not well written. My mother lenguage is spanish I am advocating the use of chlorine ALONE for controling nosema. I did the spore counts before and after the treament with control. I wish I could pos= t the graph, but no attachments allowed. I also used on other tests Acetic Acid. How ever I do not believe on acidic feeding I do believe that if enough acetic acid in the syrup the fumes will control spores as indicated for stored material. I also used a mixture of both for testing and no gasing nor dead bees. I proposed the following scheme: Early spring / late winter (Lat -39=B0) (4 moths before the honey flow): chlorine 2%: dribble 5 ml per space between frames with bees. repeat 6 day= s later, repeat again 6 days latter. Following promotion feeding: syrup+acetic acid (0,5%) + protein till at least a month before honey flow Honey flow: do nothing After honey flow feed with syrup+chlorine (500 ppm). We do no want spores o= n the winter / nor spores left in the honey for spring build up. --=20 Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:11:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Nosema A/C MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would the solution of sugar syrup and > acetic acid be as acidic as natural honey? Acetic acid is not a strongly dissociating acid. Adding vinegar to syrup is only going to drop the pH to about 3. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:23:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: Nosema A/C In-Reply-To: <00a801c83dd0$20f99aa0$1432643b@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Trevor said: I notice that there is no data on the PH of the solution once the acetic acid was added. As honey is acid in the first place, what effect on PH does the adding of the acetic acid have? Answer: True honey PH range is 3.2 -4.5. It does not hurt bees. There is no study about acetic acid and acidification of sugar syrup, but there is a study on oxalic acid and sugar syrup hydrolyzes. Please check the following article on oxalic acid and sugar syrup http://www.apimondiafoundation.org/cgi-bin/index.cgi?sid=&zone=download&action=download_file&file_id=230&categ_id=109 . or apidologie article 32 (2001)451-452 Same idea when beekeepers used to feed bees inverted sugar. It has to be enzymatic inverted sugar. Acid hydrolyzed sugar can be toxic to bees. Just, I sent my early note for precautions. Medhat ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 08:19:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Dance Language, Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I don't know how many people out there still care about the dance language controversy (maybe 1 or 2). However, reading the little book "Communication Among Social Bees" by Martin Lindauer (1971. Harvard University Press), I stumbled upon a very interesting little fact. The book is devoted mostly to the honey bee (Apis mellifera) but there is a section on work with stingless bees (Trigona spp). These bees do not communicate with dancing and lead their nest mates by marking a scent trail. Hence, they could not lead recruits across water until Lindauer strung a rope with leaves across a pond, which the bees used to make a scent trail. Lindauer shows that the stingless bees' use of odor trails can be used to lead nest mates in a vertical direction as well as horizontal. He set a feeding station on a tower about 65 feet up. Stingless bees could bring recruits to it (88 bees in 30 minutes). Honey bees could not bring recruits to the top of the tower. The dance language only contains horizontal (2 dimensional) information and so completely fails when the food source is not on or near the ground. They have no way of indicating a food source is far above the ground, so the recruits follow the direction to the base of the tower and look there. If they could use scents as well as the stingless bees do, they would have found the food source a mere 65 feet away. -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:34:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Dance Language, Revisited Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote: //“He set a feeding station on a tower about 65 feet up.” Peter, interesting study. I wonder how often honey bees would have to find a source 65 feet up on a tower? 65 feet up in the air is a long way up. What about 35 feet up? 15 Feet? //“The dance language only contains horizontal (2 dimensional) information and so completely fails when the food source is not on or near the ground.” Again, couldn’t it be a matter of degree? It just seems to me that the two mechanisms are likely to be working in different combinations of varying degrees in different species. It’s hard for me to accept after seeing how quickly my bees descend on a dripping frame of honey left out on a warm day, that they are not smelling the stuff to some degree. If the sense of smell is so strong in one species of bee is it not rather unlikely that it would be absent in another, especially when the two species are after the same food? For this reason I am skeptical of what this study seems to imply; that honey bees lack a sense of smell. But maybe that’s not it. Maybe the study is only showing the degree to which Honey bees rely on dance to locate their food, not that they don’t ever use their sense of smell. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:43:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD and N. Ceranae In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It also explains why there are different subclasses of symptoms for CCD, at least from what has recently been posted. Nosema + X can give CCD, CCD like symptoms, or other symptoms depending on X. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:12:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Dance Language, Revisited Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steve Noble wrote: >Maybe the study is only showing the degree to which Honey bees rely on >dance to locate their food, not that they don�t ever use their sense of >smell. No one is denying that honey bees have an acutely fine sense of smell. We all recognize the role that odors have in the lives of bees. The question is, does the language work? Here is a perfect example of how it fails. Any mechanism that works will have a logical breaking point and this is it. If the language never worked, you would not see this obvious breaking point. That is, the dance only indicates a two dimensional plane and cannot indicate height. Lindauer points out that the tropical stingless bees spend a lot of time in very tall tress, hence the marking technique works well for them. Presumably, honey bees would also be able to locate large patches of forage in tree tops if they were flying above the trees. However, there seems to be no way for them to use the dance to say: "go NW one mile and then STRAIGHT UP 65 feet" -- hence they arrive at the base of the tower and can't find the feeder. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:03:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Nosema A/C MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I checked the pH of white vinegar with a test strip. Ph is between 2 and 3. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:37:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Dance Language, Revisited + Smell In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steve Noble wrote:...... that they are not smelling the stuff to some degree. If the sense of smell is so strong in one species of bee is it not rather unlikely that it would be absent in another, especially when the two species are after the same food? Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk and his company use bees to smell out land mines and cadavers. Bees can detect those odors at a lot smaller concentration than a dog can. Ought to use them to smell out drugs at points of entry. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************