From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:14:32 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.9 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F05490AC for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y7W017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0801C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 128361 Lines: 2996 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 04:47:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Canadian Report Outlines Medical Properties of Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Canadian Report Outlines Medical Properties of Honey Honey and Health Benefits...Can We Make a Claim? http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/01/canadian-report-outlines-medical.html ...Upon request from The Alberta Beekeepers, with additional financial support from Alberta Crop Industry Development, Alberta Agriculture & Food has completed a critical review of the available literature on honey and health to determine if sufficient evidence exists to support the claims. This report outlines what is known about the medical properties of honey and what further research may be required before the Alberta producers can market honey with health benefit claims... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 04:16:16 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: biodynamic agriculture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell posted the facts invalidating the example given of thalidomide before I had a chance to even read the post that brought up thalidomide, which would imply to some people that Bill read my mind before I was even paying attention! :) Sorry to do it, but just to keep the record straight, I'm going to add insult to injury, and address the "virgin birth" issue. > if you were also willing to add "virgin birth"... There's really no need to doubt this, as virgin births occur on a regular basis, and are well documented by respected members of the scientific community: Sep 2002 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/09/0925_020925_virginshark. html May 2007 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/05/070524-shark-virgin.html Jan 2008 http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=83917&in_page_id= 34 It is also so common in religions and mythologies that I'm certain to miss a few if I try and list them - Romulus, Remus, Mithras (who by an amazing coincidence, was also claimed to have been born on Dec 25), Zoraster, Dionysus, Sathya Sai Baba, Maumoon, Huitzilopochtli, LaoTzu, and Montezuma, and that's just the ones that I am fairly sure pre-dated Jesus. (The burden of a classical education is that you can never forget such stuff.) But the basic statement made was perfectly true: > science benefits from people that do not believe in it's conclusions... > and oftentimes in such a case, scientific conclusions are proven "wrong". But things are proven only by someone who deals in "proof", which implies that the person uses what some refer to as "the scientific method" to make his or her case. This is absolutely fine, as science could be described as the art of being a skeptic about everything while somehow avoiding having to begin every day by waking up and starting out with "I think, therefore I am". On the other hand, people who just wander about spouting opinions and "beliefs" all day, or telling long pointless stories about what happened in their beeyard one fine day for which they can't quite even recall the date aren't going to prove or disprove anything. They will pass unregarded, and will not move the ball one inch down the field. A very heavy dude who reads Bee-L but declines to post has been e-mailing with me, and he apparently wants to blame folks like me and Aaron for each helping in our own tiny ways to bring this internet thingy to the unwashed masses and causing all this trouble. His exact words were: > I sometimes think that it has always been this way but one never > heard from the quacks because more rational people had control > of the avenues of expression--my grandmother had some peculiar > ideas but since she did not have access to the internet only > her family heard about these ideas. Yeah, he's right - the net was a very different place in the pre-1994 days. I'm not sure what we can do about it at this point, but if I'm not part of the solution, I must be part of the precipitate! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:41:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Internet Honey Scam In-Reply-To: <20080114.083903.21308.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar wrote: "I thought about placing shrinkable plastic bands on my jars. It's not a full proof way of assuring that no one else has tampered with the jar (and then installed a new band) but it's some control." I have a retail establishment that insisted on the tamper-proof bands. It was no problem to me as the bands were cheap enough and the volume at this gift store was fairly small. Despite the bands, they still have about one customer a year who thinks they need to open a jar and "sample" the honey. And of course who can take a sample of honey without leaving some kind of drip/mess? Sometimes you have to wonder about people. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:03:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Slim_Pickins?= Subject: Internet Honey Scams Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You mention shrinkable plastic bands, for honey a great idea I believe. Before they put plastic closures on Cottage Cheese it was common for people to open the lid and stick their finger in and taste the cheese, the more sanitary ones would open the lid and just smell. Saw this happen many times as a store dairy clerk. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 14:09:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Internet Honey Scam MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 15/01/2008 16:49:27 GMT Standard Time, gfcg7312003@YAHOO.COM writes: I have a retail establishment that insisted on the tamper-proof bands. It was no problem to me as the bands were cheap enough and the volume at this gift store was fairly small. Bees for Development sell tamper evident labels and customers like the idea that a few cents/pence of the purchase price is supporting a worthy charity. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:08:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] Internet Honey Scam MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This message was originally submitted by mtnhoney@ALLTEL.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. -----Original Message----- From: Carl & Virginia Webb [mailto:mtnhoney@alltel.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 3:02 PM Because the dollar value is so low, most local authorities are not concerned with this type of petty thief . People who get away with stealing little thing, graduate into stealing bigger things. The person from Merrick, NY has contacted several additional beekeepers throughout the country and it is possible that they are not only attacking the honey industry but other agriculture commodities. This effects us all, through higher mark up rates by retailers or higher interest rates from credit cards. For this type of Internet Scam, the one place individuals can make an official complaint is through the Internet Crime Complaint Center (www.IC3.gov). This is a co-operative center between the National White Collar Crime Center and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. IC3's mission is to address crime committed over the Internet. It provides a convenient and easy way to alert authorities of a suspected violation. The benefit of using this type of agency for reporting is that it will collect, review and refer Internet crime complaints to law enforcements with jurisdiction to aid in investigation. By filing a complaint you potentially reduce the amount of loss of other beekeepers throughout the US. We all work hard for our money and our honey. Don't let anyone cheat you out of it. Virginia Webb MtnHoney.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:46:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: ccd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit more tales from the front After murdering a few chickadees I was able to get a better idea of the mortality (snow is useful) It is odd to go to the yard when it is -4C,grey sky and see 3-4 bees in the air before you even get there About 1/4 of the hives are restless, these leak the most bees Perhaps not an excessive amount if there are no bodies within (>50, <200/d) 1/4 of the hives are properly dormant, no apparent leakage, no bees at entrance The rest leak less (10-20/d), are less restless All these flights are one way, I don't think I saw any returns There was a normal amount of spotting in the snow Only 2 have dysentery, both are nucs in same box The worst I didn't expect would survive the winter last fall (it was the "hard luck nuc" last summer It lost 2 virgins in a row + other mishaps Regularly 1/3 of the virgins disappear at day 10 or so, likely lost to birds or dragonflies. It is most annoying) But I digress. The point is that nosema does not seem to be a factor, at least there is little dysentery I continue to be disappointed that the dozen or more of you reading this that have ccd, KNOW that you have ccd, continue to be silent. We NEED an anonymous post here (heavily moderated) Maybe this would make no difference, but see groklaw (where it does) As to proof -- these are just observations, which you must have before you can ask any questions, let alone the right ones. In the spirit of Huber. dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:45:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: ccd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i've kept bees in central mn since 1995 and winter my colonies over. i'd rather enter a bee yard in mid winter and see some dead bees on the ground in the snow then nothing. nothing means deadouts, while some dead bees usually means healthy hives. those dead bees are probably from cleansing flights and has nothing to do with the published symptoms of CCD. you may wish to visit the MAAREC web site and review the FAQ's concerning CCD here is a web link to get you started http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/FAQ/FAQCCD.pdf a couple of hundred lost bees to cleansing flights per hive is nothing as new brood will be hatching in the next month or two. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:24:25 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: ccd and anonymous reports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We NEED an anonymous post here (heavily moderated) > Maybe this would make no difference, but see groklaw > (where it does) Anonymous would be easy: 1) Set up an account with gmail, hotmail, yahoo, whatever. 2) Subscribe to Bee-L from that account. 3) Think before you type, and don't give anything away in your posts themselves. > But I digress. The point is that nosema does not seem > to be a factor, at least there is little dysentery There are lots of serious cases of nosema out there that are not detectable at all with anything less than a microscope. Also, Dysentery should not be confused with Nosema. Either one can be present without the other. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:10:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: ccd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: >i've kept bees in central mn since 1995 and winter my colonies over. > >i'd rather enter a bee yard in mid winter and see some dead bees on the ground in the snow then >nothing. >those dead bees are probably from cleansing flights and has nothing to do with the published >symptoms of CCD. >a couple of hundred lost bees to cleansing flights per hive is nothing as new brood will be hatching >in the next month or two. I did say it didn't seem excessive numbers And I know you doubt I have ccd What is unusual is flights at 9am-11am and 3pm-5:30pm -- every day that its not "cold" I hope that there will be no brood yet or for 2 months or more I'm used to hives that appear dead unless you give them a thump to hear Some hives do very well with only a few bodies outside all winter, maybe most make it home But this is now dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:11:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: ccd and anonymous reports Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim >are not detectable at all with anything less than a microscope. I don't have a microscope, I'll have to change that I wonder if a "snow spot" would be a superior sample? And vis Chris (from memory) >and a nurse then feeds larvae with infected tounge Can larvae be infected with nosema? dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:08:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Liability Insurance MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThe new Hampshire Beekeepers Association has a policy with Farm = Family that has an umbrella clause covering all the local clubs in the = state as affiliates. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:40:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Grease patties? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I haven't heard anything about greece patties for a while. Does anyone still use them? I bought a big container of Crisco from Costco a while back. Costco Crisco. Now I'm wondering if it's worth the trouble. Grease is why I quit working on cars. What's a good recipe and what's the best timing etc? What would be the best reason for using grease patties now days? Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:23:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Bioactive Fraction of Manuka Honey Identified MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Bioactive Fraction of Manuka Honey Identified Isolation by HPLC and Characterisation of the Bioactive Fraction of New Zealand Manuka (Leptospermum Scoparium) Honey Carbohydrate Research, Article in Press, Corrected Proof http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/01/bioactive-fraction-of-manuka-honey.html Abstract: Using HPLC a fraction of New Zealand manuka honey has been isolated, which gives rise to the non-peroxide antibacterial activity. This fraction proved to be methylglyoxal, a highly reactive precursor in the formation of advanced glycation endproducts (AGEs)... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:53:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Grease patties? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I haven't used grease patties for a while myself, mostly because my bees didn't really care for them. I mixed two parts sugar to one part Crisco. I laid patties out on waxed paper just to keep things neater in the truck, then pulled the top sheet off when they went in the hive. Lately, there have been rumors that their use attracts Small Hive Beetles. I can't find that source or substantiate it. The ideal behind grease patties was that their use covered up the "smell" of the younger bees and confused the varroa mites. I switched to six blue shop towels soaked in one cup of canola oil. I fold the towels into "fourths," place them in a sandwich container, pour the oil over them and let them sit overnight. The bees shred the towels and get greasy. I'm not sure if they attract SHB. Grant Jackson, MO http://www.25hives.homestead.com --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:49:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Grease patties? In-Reply-To: <200801160241.m0G2e3wa013531@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit History/Controversy: Grease extender patties were first proposed by Dr. Bill Wilson as a means to deliver oxytetracycline for an extended period of time, thereby removing the need to make repeated trips to outyards, which for some commercial operations realized significant savings in labor and fuel. It has been argued that the prolonged presence of oxytet in hives in a grease patty may be associated with increased resistence to oxytet by the target bacteria, Grease patties without oxytet can be useful as a treatment for tracheal mites. "Smith and graduate student Diana Sammataro decided to investigate whether vegetable fat applications really were a practical method of mite control. They made ten-ounce hamburger-shaped patties of two parts Crisco and one part white sugar--the purpose of the sugar being to attract the bees. Then they put the patties in 20 infected honeybee colonies, replacing them as needed so the bees could wallow at will in the sweet and greasy mix. An equal number of colonies got sugar patties made without Crisco. After eight months, only 2 of the 20 colonies with a constant supply of shortening had died from mite infestation, while almost half the colonies without oily patties had died. How does shortening protect bees? "The mites, when they disperse, depend on bees rubbing up against one another," says Smith. "Under a microscope you'll see the mites crawl out to the ends of the long hairs of bees and wave their arms out in the air, trying to latch onto another bee. We aren't sure, but it may be that the oil prevents them from grabbing the bees like that." Originally it was recommended to leave grease patties in the hive year round. This recommendation was later changed to leave patties in when bees are confined (ie. winter); it is not necessary to use grease patties in when bees' populations are rapidly expanding (spring/summer). Formula available at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/extender/default.htm Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 16:19:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Grease patties? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "Under a microscope you'll see the mites crawl > out to the ends of the long hairs of bees and wave their arms out in the > air, trying to latch onto another bee. We aren't sure, but it may be > that the oil prevents them from grabbing the bees like that." > I believe it was later that the theory was more smell than catching on. Adult bees are shunned by the mite and young bees are grabbed onto quickly. They do smell different, so the Crisco masks the smell and the mite cannot tell one from another so just sits there and eventually dies. It is still one of the most serendipitous discoveries that led to a cheap and effective solution to the TM problem. If I recall correctly, when the mite was being investigated in the lab, it was difficult to confine them to a petri dish, so some oil or grease was spread on the lip. It actually repelled the mite and the rest is history. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 16:34:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bioactive Fraction of Manuka Honey Identified In-Reply-To: <20080116052312.84d281a5f2f7df0ef38485a84124037d.783fe75584.wbe@email.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > . > This fraction proved to be methylglyoxal, a highly reactive precursor in > the formation of advanced glycation endproducts (AGEs)... > It appears that methylglyoxal is in many honeys, just the concentrations differ. It is also in coffee, for what that is worth. Interesting that the press releases for the honey make it seem that it is unique and other honeys do not have what it has. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:43:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: New Zealand Varroa mite battle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Recently read this from New Zeland, http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/413551/1506705 What do you think? Does anyone know of the reaserch being done breeding vorroa-resistant bees at Hamilton's Ruakura Research Center in Zew Zeland? Could you send me some links Thanks ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:02:39 -0800 Reply-To: k.kellison@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Kellison Subject: grease patties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII HI Steve, The recipe I was taught is to whip one part Crisco shortening and one and half parts (by volume) granulated sugar with a bit (an ounce per pound of mix) of your own healthy bees' honey. Then load the stuff into a caulking gun and squirt a bead on the top bars of brood frames particularly August - October for soft management of trachea.. My experience is the bees consume it readily as opposed to a grease patty that might get nibbled on and I ended up chucking after a few weeks. Kathy ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:40:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Johnny Cox Subject: Fermented Syrup In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone on the list know how to salvage fermented syrup? All things are possible with Him. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:22:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Fermented Syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable He may be able to salvage fermented syrup but mere mortals should just = throw it away. Period. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:43:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: buying a new extractor In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I am thinking of replacing my 4 frame stainless tangential. The unit that catches my eye is the Maxant 3100 3/6/9. Maxant says that it is their best selling unit. I have not been able to find anyone who has used one. Comments please. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:01:29 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Grease patties? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm stunned. Grease patties? Double-you-tee-eff??? This is the twenty-FIRST century, and tracheal mite susceptible queens are nothing more than defective merchandise sold to unsuspecting beekeepers by queen and package producers who are selling substandard (diseased!) stock. Read this: http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=2744&page=12 Note that this was published in 1998 (for Pete's Sake!) I remember that Bee-L was informed of these findings by Allen Dick in advance of publication of the paper years and years ago. http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/tracheal.htm Sure, I sample for tracheal mites, and gosh it is tedious to peer at all those trachea. But if I ever found any actual tracheal mites, I would be on the phone demanding a full refund for that batch of queens, and that queen producer would not get my business again until they fixed their problem. Friends don't let friends buy cruddy queens. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:04:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lesli Sagan Subject: "Jiggling" nosema spores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In his January 2008 *ABJ *article, "The 'Nosema Twins'," Randy Oliver mentioned that under a microscope, nosema spores appear to "jiggle" (page 64, last paragraph), though Randy doesn't know why. My husband suggested Brownian Motion as a possible explanation (there a Wikipedia article on it, if you're interested). The short explanation is that water molecules are in a constant state of agitation, and will transfer that motion to any immersed particle. Particles that are small enough--including, perhaps, nosema spores--will be buffeted in an obvious way. While a small particle will visibly jiggle, a larger particle's jiggle will not be noticeable. On a related note, the *ABJ *article gave some wonderful advice on buying a microscope. Does anyone have advice on buying bee biology books with illustrations, to help identify the bits and blobs one observes with those excellent microscopes? Thanks, Lesli -- ***************************** Lesli Sagan lesli.sagan@gmail.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 08:32:35 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian Steppler wrote: > http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/413551/1506705 > > What do you think? I cannot believe that they intend to use just 50 breeder queens. Reduction in gene pool? Peter Edwards ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:23:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Grease patties? In-Reply-To: <000401c858b5$423ba870$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > I remember that Bee-L was informed of these findings by Allen Dick > in advance of publication of the paper years and years ago. > http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/tracheal.htm > > Sure, I sample for tracheal mites, and gosh it is tedious to > peer at all those trachea. From the article: "Through testing, susceptible colonies are easily identified and can be eliminated. Several of the queen breeders who participated in this survey reported that susceptible colonies were removed from their breeding programs soon after they received the test results." Unless the queens are tested, which means using mites, I wonder about the quality of queens even from a supplier who has "mite resistant queens". Unless the supplier sells the exact same genetic stock, in essence a clone, every year, there will be variability in the queens as time goes along. Since there does not seem to be TM pressure and the bees sold would be unlikely to have TM, resistance can diminish naturally. Also, each queen supplier does "improve" the stock. If there is no TM testing, that resistance could easily diminish with time without anyone seeing it, especially if the threat, Varroa, was seen as the main reason for the breeding program. My guess is there is no TM testing. The supposed unimportance of TM, because we have resistant bees, is especially dangerous now, with Varroa and CCD always blamed for colony failure. Unfortunately, here in Maine, TM has bee high on the list of the cause of winter kill, even now. In each case, and they have been fairly high losses over the past winters, Varroa was blamed, but under the microscope, TM were present and often the real culprit. It has shown up in both hobby and commercial yards, including colonies overwintered in Florida. It showed up in some of the CCD colonies inspected by Jerry and Co.in California. For a hobby beekeeper who grows their own, throwing on a patty in the fall is cheap insurance. It certainly removes one mite which is present in Maine (Cal. and Florida) from being an issue. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:34:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: grease patties In-Reply-To: <380-2200814172239546@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathy Kellison wrote: > My experience is the bees consume it readily as opposed to > a grease patty that might get nibbled on and I ended up chucking after a few weeks. The grease patty should be left on all winter.It may not (and usually is not) totally consumed, but that is not an issue. The key is that it is there the entire time that TM may be present, not that it disappears quickly. Truth is, if it is gone quickly, it is not doing its job over the long haul. It was pointed out to me that TM as a problem disappears when pollen starts in the spring and becomes one when it stops. Pollen may act as a mask, just like Crisco, but that is pure conjecture. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:52:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: grease patties In-Reply-To: <200801171443.m0HE8GhY026203@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > It was pointed out to me that TM as a > problem disappears when pollen starts > in the spring and becomes one when it > stops. As Diana explained it to me, it's not a function of pollen, it's a function of population growth. As bees become more abundant, TM becomes less of a problem because there are plenty of trachea for all. When bee populations are in decline or static (as they are in fall and winter) TM have fewer trachea to inhabit and become a problem. Hence the recommendation to keep grease patties in the hive year round changed to keep grease patties in the hive during periods of confinement (fall winter). Aaron Morris - thinking population dynamics! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:36:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: grease patties In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17-Jan-08, at 9:52 AM, Aaron Morris wrote: > Hence the > recommendation to keep grease patties in the hive year round > changed to > keep grease patties in the hive during periods of confinement (fall > winter). > Hi Aaron and all Hopefully no-one still uses grease patties all year nor mixes oxytet in the patty as was done in the past. Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food, and Rural Affairs(OMAFRA) recommends the use of formic acid for the treatment of both TM and varroa. When using formic for varroa, effective control of TM is also achieved. Why also use grease patties? Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:43:49 -0500 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Grease Patties ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I cannot say that I have a lot of in-depth discussions with those that call themselves 'Queen Breeders', but I think few do any testing of their breeders for resistance to Tracheal Mites. On two occasions I have raised the subject and have found it very difficult to get a straight answer. Most of those who sell queens to the like of ourselves are really Queen Producers, not Queen Breeders. Queen Breeders are those such as Glenn Apiaries, Charlie Harper, Sue Cobey, and others who are going through the long and arduous selection process for the queen breeders and then the equally arduous process for the $500 Breeder Queens sold to the Queen Producers. These guys, the true Queen Breeders, would not last long without testing for Tracheal Mite resistance. Sue Cobey used to make the results of her tests public...and may still, but I have not checked. SOME queen producers solely use the (tested) queens they purchase to produce (daughters) queens that they sell to us for $15-$20 each. Other queen producers will use the Queen Breeders they purchase to produce more queens, which they use to produce queens they sell to us. Still other queen producers will not purchase any of their queen breeders and will grow them all 'in house'. I have always felt that the best queen producers are those that produce queens for me directly from the II queens they buy from the true Queen Breeders. I have never been bashful about asking, and have never felt I have been lied to. (Some of those I have asked have said they do all their own selection of queen breeders.) As my personal preference is for New World Carniolans, I buy from those that sell daughters of Queen breeders bought from Sue Cobey. I agree with those who say 'put on a grease patty in late summer, and replace if necessary'. It is cheap insurance. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:02:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: buying a new extractor In-Reply-To: <96C7E7BB-D3A6-4C29-94ED-A452DABD5078@interlog.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob's looking for a Maxant 3100 3/6/9 My personal opinion is to buy two sizes too large. I was looking for a 9/12 when a 20 came up for sale. The 20 was close to my desired price, and in the absence of a reasonable 12, I went and spent the money and got the 20. Boy am I glad I went and spent the extra money. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:50:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 50 breeder queens are better than 10,? I guess? How many breeder queens would you expect? Within specific breeding programs in the US, how many breeder queens are typically used? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:04:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Breeder Queen Numbers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ian Steppler wrote:Within specific breeding programs in the US, how many breeder queens are typically used? I think Dan Purvis would be a good source concerning the number of breeder queens used in a breeding program. Mike in LA http://web.mac.com/dannpurvis/iWeb/Purvis%20Brothers%20Bees.com/Home.html --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:33:45 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: ccd and anonymous reports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/01/2008 01:20:39 GMT Standard Time, dthompson@NEXUSISP.COM writes: Can larvae be infected with nosema? The normal progress of work for a bees is first cell cleaning where she will use her tongue to clean up the bees you squashed or faeces, thus becoming contaminated with nosema spores if they are present. That's how she gets infected. Next she feeds the babies. Although the spores germinating in her own gut probably won't affect the food she produces for the larvae, any spores adhering to her mouth parts have a good chance of transferring to the larvae; however, it is not thought to affect larval stages, being a disease of adults. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:50:00 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian Steppler asked: > Within specific breeding programs in the US, how many breeder queens are > typically used? I have seen it claimed that virtually all the stock in the US has been bred from fewer than 800 queens, and that this lack of genetic diversity may be one of the reasons contributing to the current problems. To suggest that a national breeding programme should have only 50 breeder queens would therefore seem to me to be unwise to say the least. Peter Edwards ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:24:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Queen Breeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Queen breeding is a microcosm of the real world, of course. There are at least two pervasive pressures: quantity and quality. Some buyers need queens, now, as many as they can get. Some want the best money can buy. Now whether these goals are mutually exclusive, I suppose they are. But somewhere in the middle is what you choose to produce. You may go for large quantity and low price, or high quality and high price. Then the market sorts you in or out. What I am saying is you can't blame the producer for aiming at a particular goal, the one he thinks will keep him in business. If I could get a hundred bucks a piece for open mated queens, wouldn't I be lucky. As far as the number of breeder queens goes, one must bear in mind that the Africanized bees descend from a very few original queens and their vigor is not impaired. There are other isolated populations like Cyprus, etc. that do not seem to have failed due to inbreeding. Conversely, the USA is much larger and has a much more diverse bee population. How diverse it needs to be, no one is able to say. The only thing we seem to know for certain is that bees' natural mating habits seem to favor more diversity, probably to avoid inbreeding but also because diversity within the colony seems to promote vigor. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:27:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Edwards writes: "I have seen it claimed that virtually all the stock in the US has been bred from fewer than 800 queens,..." >From Purvis Bro's web site: "The Goldline bee represents one of the largest if not the largest and therefore most diverse line of bees available anywhere. We collected initial breeders from any and all credible sources to include feral, New World Carnolian, Russian, purebred Italians (via Australia), Carnolian, Caucasion, German Black and many other private and commercial sources. The bottom line is we gathered any bee that had potential and included it in our gene pool." Peter, although this does not necessarily contradict the point you were making, it does seem to indicate that a lot of diversity could be incorporated into 800 queens or maybe even less. Presumably a breeding program of any kind would have a certain goal; most likely to produce a few good queens. But starting from a broad field and narrowing it down to just a select few, the question becomes how much in the way of diversity is completely lost? How may genes drop out of the pool? Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:46:42 -0500 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Genetic Diversity (was New Zealand Breeding) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I don't want to try to get into detail, but there might not be much to get excited about here, whether 50 Breeder Queens for New Zealand or 800 for the US. I used to be ok with the maths involved, but no longer. Nevertheless, the more we learn about genetics it seems the more we understand that prior assumptions need to be revised. For example, not all that long ago there was much being said that the bans on intermarriage between first cousins cannot be scientifically supported as reducing genetic birth defects. Likewise, there used to be a lot of worry about lack of genetic diversity when animal populations were isolated by interstate highways, canals, suburbs, etc. The fear was that inbreeding would result in massive infertility or genetic defects that would lead to a lack of survival traits. My understanding is that the newer thinking is that the dangers of inbreeding as a result of such isolation have been considerably overstated. Finally, in some circumstances, such as with food fish such as catfish, tilapia, salmon, etc. the world population can be traced back to very few ancestors and these animals have gone through many generations without visible negative genetic effects. I am certain there are several persons on this list that can add to our understanding of whether it is reasonable to comment on whether 50, 800, or any other number of breeder queens can be said to provide insufficient genetic diversity. I'd like to hear them. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 23:28:44 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: ccd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>After murdering a few chickadees I was able to get a better idea of the mortality (snow is useful) Chickadees are very beneficial, beautiful birds! Sorry but I can't feel sorry for you... >>It is odd to go to the yard when it is -4C,grey sky and see 3-4 bees in the air before you even get there.... About 1/4 of the hives are restless... 1/4 of the hives are properly dormant, no apparent leakage, no bees at entrance Are you sure the restless ones are not going out for water to dilute their honey to feed to the brood? Many colonies, especially the weak ones, will start raising a small clutch of brood at this time. Stick division board feeders with an inch of water in your restless hives and monitor. >>Regularly 1/3 of the virgins disappear at day 10 or so, likely lost to birds or dragonflies. It is most annoying) You live in nature's backyard. Just raise more virgins. >>I continue to be disappointed that the dozen or more of you reading this that have ccd, KNOW that you have ccd, continue to be silent. Are you positive you have ccd? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:45:30 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Noble wrote: > Peter, although this does not necessarily contradict the point you were > making, it does seem to indicate that a lot of diversity could be > incorporated into 800 queens or maybe even less. Perhaps so, I am not a geneticist, but we were talking about 50 - not 800. > Presumably a breeding program of any kind would have a certain goal; most > likely to produce a few > good queens. This breeding programme seemed to have the goal of replacing the entire genetic stock of a nation with the progeny of 50 queens - or did I read it incorrectly? > But starting from a broad field and narrowing it down to just > a select few, the question becomes how much in the way of diversity is > completely lost? How may [should that be many?]genes drop out of the > pool? No idea. Perhaps we would need to know how many genes are being carried by the current number of breeders and how many of those are not being carried in the 50 queens. I suspect that this is a large number - and they would be lost forever. Any geneticists out there who can shed some light and put numbers to it? Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:49:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: ccd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Are you positive you have ccd? >Waldemar yes As to water, no one is returning My climate is cold enough that I hope there is no brood now or for at least a month dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:00:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Genetic Diversity (was New Zealand Breeding) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > > I am certain there are several persons on this list that can add to our > understanding of whether it is reasonable to comment on whether 50, 800, or > any other number of breeder queens can be said to provide insufficient > genetic diversity. I'd like to hear them. > > The assumption here, and its inherent problem, is that you have 50, 100, or 800 sets of identical bees. So there are, at most, 800 genetically different bees in the US or whatever country. That is obviously impossible. It also assumes that all beekeepers get their bees from these suppliers, another fallacy. Add isolation of some bees that became distinct races and were not "genetically diverse", a term that can only be applied in the broadest sense.They seemed to get along just fine. Add the impossibility of totally controlling swarms and open mating. When only two of those supposed pure bred bees mate, the permutations and combinations of their progeny would totally corrupt genetic purity. (Just check your brothers and sisters.) I think we are making much of nothing. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:54:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: New Zealand Varroa mite battle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ian Steppler wrote: >http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/413551/1506705 >What do you think? Quote from article: > It will take about two years for mother nature to build up numbers and work her magic. * Another vague article, very long on promises and short on facts. Sounds like a replication of Harbo's work. Not to belittle the work of anyone, you understand, but an 80% reduction in the breeder stock does not necessarily produce mite-resistant queens in the field. Big problem with the line-bred bees is lack of brood viability. You get colonies without mites that can't build up. -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:57:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell: " I think we are making much of nothing." I agree, a much better case would need to be made for the conclusion that lack of genetic diversity may have become a problem, especially when you consider those factors which Bill pointed out. For purely academic reasons, though, I do wonder what the potential is for diversity within a relatively small, closed mating system. I mean even if it came down to the last honey bee in the world, what would that mean in terms of diversity assuming you could expand out from there and re- establish honey bees in the world. In other words how much of the total honey bee genome is packaged within one queen? When you breed you are mostly making adjustments in the frequency of certain genes, not creating new ones or eliminating others although obviously as the population gets smaller and smaller some genes have an increased chance of dropping out altogether. But they would tend to be ones that you would not notice if you were selecting for what you considered desirable characteristics. They may become important later though if some new challenge were to arise. Likewise the population that has become isolated for long enough to have become a separate “race” may have no problems as long as it is able to maintain its isolation and its environment doesn’t change significantly. Otherwise the ability of a few bees to retain a significant representation of the total A.m genome may be a thing to consider as we try to reinvent the honey bee through breeding schemes like the one that was so poorly reported in the article that began this thread. The author of that article didn’t seem to have the foggiest idea of what he was writing about. Beyond that it didn’t seem like anything that isn’t already being done by high tech breeders all over the place; Purvis, Cobey, Taber, etc. Still the article mentioned 50 queens. How much diversity would be represented by such a number? How much adaptive flexibility would that population have starting out with only that many queens? I realize these are not easy questions to answer, but could they be more important than we realize? Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:17:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Irwin_Harlton?= Subject: Genetic Diversity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd said "Finally, in some circumstances, such as with food fish such as catfish, tilapia, salmon, etc. the world population can be traced back to very few ancestors and these animals have gone through many generations without visible negative genetic effects. I am certain there are several persons on this list that can add to our understanding of whether it is reasonable to comment on whether 50, 800, or any other number of breeder queens can be said to provide insufficient genetic diversity. I'd like to hear them." Not sure of all my facts here, as I am recalling from memory. PLEASE correct me if I am wrong. 20 or 75 African scut gueens were inported to Brazil in 1956.Some 30 years later a swarm found on a ship in california was determined to be african bees.The DNA of the swarm was compared to the DNA taken from Brazil at least 20 years earlier.The DNA was an exact match.It had not changed in that period of time.I found this hard to believe. I realize from studies done that africanized bees do not interbreed readily with Europen bees and when they do, they dominate or take out the European genetic's. Are we comparing apples and oranges or are they all oranges. I used to think that there was not enough genetic diversity in NorthAmerican bees.Now I guestion this thought.On the other hand Brother Adam obtained some remarkable stock by importing from many places. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 14:33:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carl & Virginia Webb Subject: Genetic Diversity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some breeders work with the genetic diversity within each race or group = of bees. Nature does that and enough genetic diversity is retained for = survival. Some breeders today are successful with this approach. Do we = have the experience to make the criticisms of these efforts? Are = mongrels better? Traditional animal breeders including natural selection = have not believed it to be so. Also can anyone really include the genes = from hundreds of queens into their selected breeding stock? It seems = that selecting for traits such as varroa resistance would mean that the = genes of the more resistant queens in the group would predominate.=20 For example , if I have a mite resistant queen and cross her through = repeated generations with non resistant queens while I cull out those = less resistant; then it seems logical that the most resistant final = product I would have would be no more mite resistant than my original = mite resistant queen. Sure, mutations happen and there are unexpressed = genes that may appear.=20 An example might be if I had a black mite resistant queen together with = 100 non resistant yellow queens and I selected for resistance I would = likely end with a mite resistant queen very similar genetically to the = mite resistant queen I started with and If I made no special effort to = select for color she just may be black also. I would likely finish the = breeding program with a queen that is genetically almost identical to = the original mite resistant queen. A lot can be said for selecting from within a race or naturally diverse = group. Isn't that what the most successful breeders in the US are doing = today? I see no contradiction when I say that to maintain genetic = diversity it is necessary to maintain the separate races as separate = genetic groups. If all are mongrels then where do we go for diversity in = the future. Carl Webb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:14:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Genetic Diversity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On honey bee genetics: I think the less said about this the better. One can put one's foot very far into one's mouth these days. The whole study of genetics is exploding and things are being discovered that no one in their right mind would have imagined > A particularly fascinating discussion is given of the role of transposable elements in the insect genome. These can alter the gene structure and function, and can transfer horizontally between species. The microbial symbiont Wolbachia's role in insect evolution is discussed, and the amazing fact that insects contain three or four genomes, namely the nuclear, mitochondrial, gut symbionts, and Wolbachia, raising the question of just what constitutes a biological individual. Some species of insects can have diploid males and females, or haploid males and diploid females, or only females. from Dr. Lee Carlson, Saint Louis, MO USA, reviewing: "Insect Molecular Genetics: An Introduction to Principles and Applications", Second Edition by Marjorie A. Hoy ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:26:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: ccd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:49:44 -0500, Dave Thompson wrote: >My climate is cold enough that >I hope there is no brood now >or for at least a month brood rearing in winter has more to do with longer days and the amount of pollen available in the hive not temp. how long you been keeping bees Dave? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 01:53:32 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: ccd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>As to water, no one is returning They may be heading out for water but getting hypothermic in the process and not returning. When I introduced water in the hives, cold temperature flying decreased substantially and they hives entered the spring strong. >>My climate is cold enough that I hope there is no brood now or for at least a month Right. Although you never know... Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 19:28:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a question I would like to toss out to the board, Quote from private conversation related to New Zealand project>>Their selection process was along the same lines as Harbo,uncapping cells in the later stages of development and counting the number of cells that had no reproducing mites,breeding up from these until they reached about 80% non reproducing. >>they don't know what causes the mites to be sterile Does anyone have any theory on how the bees are able to supress the mites ability to reproduce? Thanks ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 21:57:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Does anyone have any theory on how the bees > are able to supress the mites ability to > reproduce? I don't know about the New Zealand study specifically, although I agree = with Peter that it sounds a lot like the work John Harbo did. At first = John thought he had isolated SMR (Suppressive Mite Reproduction) = although he was never sure what were the means that suppressed the = reproduction (the gist of Ian's question). Subsequent work revealed = that the suppressed mite reproduction wasn't a function of some trigger = (or lact thereof) that was causing the mites to not reproduct, what was = keeping the mites from reproducing was the fact that the bees could = detect the presence of mite infested larvae/pupae and the bees were = pulling said larvae/pupae from the cells and ejecting them from the = hive. The mites didn't reproduce because they were evicted before they = got the chance. Hence the acronym SMR was replaced by VSH (Varroa = Suppressive Hygienic). Aaron Morris - thinking about cleaning house!=20 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 22:00:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Does anyone have any theory on how the bees > are able to suppress the mites ability to > reproduce? I don't know about the New Zealand study specifically, although I agree = with Peter that it sounds a lot like the work John Harbo did. At first = John thought he had isolated SMR (Suppressive Mite Reproduction) = although he was never sure what were the means that suppressed the = reproduction (the gist of Ian's question). Subsequent work revealed = that the suppressed mite reproduction wasn't a function of some trigger = (or lack thereof) that was causing the mites to not reproduce, what was = keeping the mites from reproducing was the fact that the bees could = detect the presence of mite infested larvae/pupae and the bees were = pulling said larvae/pupae from the cells and ejecting them from the = hive. The mites didn't reproduce because they were evicted before they = got the chance. Hence the acronym SMR was replaced by VSH (Varroa = Suppressive Hygienic). Aaron Morris - thinking about cleaning house!=20 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 21:16:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This article might explain a lot. http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=192535 Harper's Honey Farm Charles Harper charlie@russianbreeder.org labeeman@russianbreeder.com (337) 298 6261 Ian Steppler wrote: > > Does anyone have any theory on how the bees are able to supress the mites > ability to reproduce? > ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 21:25:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These articles might explain a lot. http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=171534 http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=192535 Harper's Honey Farm Charles Harper charlie@russianbreeder.org labeeman@russianbreeder.com (337) 298 6261 Ian Steppler wrote: > > Does anyone have any theory on how the bees are able to supress the mites > ability to reproduce? > ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:15:29 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron wrote > what was keeping the mites from reproducing was the fact that the bees > could detect the presence of mite infested larvae/pupae and the bees were > pulling said > larvae/pupae from the cells and ejecting them from the hive. The mites > didn't reproduce because they were evicted before they got the chance. > Hence the > acronym SMR was replaced by VSH (Varroa Suppressive Hygienic). This being the case, then I would assume the hive would not be building up too strong as the bees would be continually rejecting infected larvae. Corrcet? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRAlIA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:40:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Trevor asked about the build up of VSH hives. I wondered the same = thing. But the whole dynamics of Varroa changes with these bees (and = I'm speaking as a mathematician now, not from personal experience). VSH = are by nature highly hygienic. It is their nature to remove Varroa = infested brood. Constantly. Therefore the Varroa populations never = reach very high levels. The more the brood remove the fewer Varroa mite = remain, so the fewer subsequent infested brood have to be removed. The = bee population will pick up. Aaron Morris - thinking mathematics is the only true science. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:26:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: ccd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 19/01/2008 06:02:14 GMT Standard Time, dthompson@NEXUSISP.COM writes: I hope there is no brood now or for at least a month Have you checked? I lost a couple following a recent cold snap during which they retreated from their ample stores and starved among plenteous brood in all stages. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 05:05:54 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It would be a pity in my view if New Zealand effectively re-stocked with a limited gene pool that happens to fit the needs of the moment. I understand that there are pockets of Amm to be found that can trace their ancestry back to the original imports from the UK in the 1830s before the UK gene pool became contaminated with Aml and others. They seem to do well where local conditions suit their talents. I have not (yet) been there but gather that NZ, a collection of islands stretching from the tropics down towards the Antarctic, has an enormous range of climatic conditions for bees to cope with. If follows that they would do better with a large range of honeybee genotypes to allow Darwin to select those that do best in each locality. With climate change accelerating, flexibility should be the watchword. Varroa isn't the only problem on their horizon. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:30:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Genetic Diversity In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Irwin Harlton wrote: > The DNA of the swarm was compared to the > DNA taken from Brazil at least 20 years earlier.The DNA was an exact > match.It had not changed in that period of time.I found this hard to > believe. There is DNA and there is DNA. You can classify a species with DNA and say it has not changed, but you are looking at that part of the DNA that identifies that species. But within that species, you will not find exact matches, otherwise you have just invalidated the criminal justice system worldwide, where DNA is used to identify one individual from another, and there are over 6 billion of us. I agree with Peter, that we are beyond our depth in this area, since it is a moving target. Not nearly as simple as was once thought. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 16:24:36 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...bees could detect the presence of mite infested larvae/pupae and the bees were pulling said larvae/pupae from the cells and ejecting them from the hive... I also like another trait reported in some bees: bees pro-actively detecting and biting varroa mites. Anybody know anyone selling queens with this trait? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:17:26 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: ccd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote: > Have you checked? I lost a couple following a recent cold snap during > which > they retreated from their ample stores and starved among plenteous brood > in > all stages. Certainly breeding here in the Midlands. We lifted a few roofs the other day and you could 'smell' the warmth coming up through the feedhole - tells you that all is well. Put your hand on the crownboard and you can feel it. Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:00:19 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle/ proactive detection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar wrote >>also like another trait reported in some bees: bees pro-actively detecting and biting varroa mites. Anybody know anyone selling queens with this trait? The answer : a Russian breeder as per the following >From submission to bee-l by P. Borst last December discussing Sustainability This issue of sustainability has been brought up again and again. What is generally overlooked is that almost everybody is for sustainability; only a few of us go into an endeavor hoping to make a quick buck and get out before the whole thing collapses. We want to succeed, and into the foreseeable future. The future, of course, is anything but foreseeable, and hence the problem. However, it is worth examining what a sustainable beekeeping system would consist of (instead of pointing fingers at the bad guys). To start, one would want colonies that required less attention than they seem to do now. For example: > Overall, Russian honey bees regulate the growth of varroa populations. Russian honey bees are resource-responsive. Russian colonies build large populations in spring when pollen becomes available. Consequently, their honey production is comparable. However, unlike Italian colonies they either slow down or completely stop brood production in response to a lack of nectar flow (Tubbs et al. 2003). This resource sensitivity may contribute to Russian honey bees' varroa resistance. > Also, Russian honey bees have many more injured and dead mites on the bottom boards of their hives, suggesting that they have a greater tendency to groom mites from their nests and nest mates (Rinderer et al. 2001). In contrast, susceptible Italian bees continue with their brood production under the same circumstances. Extended brood production offers a constant supply of hosts for mite reproduction. Ritter (1984) reported a 10-fold increase in mite population in southwestern Germany where the brood-rearing period is longer than in southeastern France (as cited by Fries et al. 1991). From: Growth of Varroa destructor Populations in Russian Honey Bee Colonies LILIA I. DE GUZMAN, THOMAS E. RINDERER, AND AMANDA M. FRAKE ANNALS OF THE ENTOMOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF AMERICA Vol. 100, no. 2 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:46:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: ccd In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 20-Jan-08, at 4:26 AM, Chris Slade wrote: > > In a message dated 19/01/2008 06:02:14 GMT Standard Time, > dthompson@NEXUSISP.COM writes: > > I hope there is no brood now > or for at least a month > > > > Have you checked? > Hi Chris and all Dave lives 100-200km northeast of me. Tonight at 6:30 it is -14C cooling down from a high today of -10C. His weather will be cooler. As all beekeeping is local, no opening hives here yet. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:53:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>resistance mechanisms that scientists have identified. They include, .... hygienic behavior of removing infested pupae, ..., and suppression of mite reproduction >>http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/pub..._no_115=171534 >>This suggests that the SMR bees did not remove mites from brood cells if the mites did not lay eggs. By targeting the reproductive mites, bees with the SMR trait give the illusion that nearly all of the mites are non- reproductive. Therefore, our selection for a high frequency of non- reproductive mites may have produced bees that primarily remove reproductive mites from capped brood, not a condition that caused mites to be non-reproductive. >>http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/pub..._no_115=192535 >>We measured both the removal of infested cells and the frequency of nonreproducing mites in all colonies. An increase in the rate of removal of infested cells was strongly related to a decrease in all categories of reproductive mites, even mites that produced eggs too late to mature. However, removal rates were not related to the number of mites that produced no progeny. Maybe its seems straight forward to everyone else here, please straighten things out for me if you please. The way I seem to understand what is being said is first link suggest the two mechanisms are related, and the second link suggests they are not related. Am I misunderstanding that? Can you find SMR and VHS seperate from one and another, or are they always expressed together? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 16:34:53 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: 'Tis a puzzlement In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT I have a puzzlement. A new beekeeper, just started this year, went into winter with four colonies. Two are alive and well, two are dead. One dead hive is a particular puzzle for me. There were lots of bees pretty much filling three supers. They died spread out through the hive – not clustered, not head in. There were abundant stores and the bees had been able to fly, presumably one way, as late as a week ago. This does not look like anything I have ever seen. No dwindling, no starvation, no sign of disease (at least that I am familiar with), just lots of dead bees. All the colonies had the same treatment (as far as can be measured). Any ideas? “’Tis a puzzlement.” Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 03:04:56 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle/ proactive detection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...bees pro-actively detecting and biting varroa mites. Anybody know anyone selling queens with this trait? The answer : a Russian breeder... I should rephrase somewhat: are there Russian queen producers out there who will *guarantee* that I will find bitten mites on sticky boards after installing their queens? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:45:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: ccd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit more tales To my utter amazement there were a few bees flying today (>5,<10) I didn't stay long, my fingertips were starting to hurt (-12C/10F, windy) Later at end of day there were enough to count in front of 2 hives (approx 100) The others all less 5-20 Some managed to make 30 yds out This was all today 20 jan Yesterday as I was passing the S yard and as the snow has receded some, I thought I would visit There were only few bodies in snow, no bird sign When I rapped on all hives I heard .... silence After a moment of panic I realized that looking in the top hole moving bees were visible in 7 of 8 hives By comparison the N yard made noise, but quieter than I remember from past (if you didn't listen closely it was not audible) FWIW my average brood-free time is 130-135 days (p2e) It would be rather foolish for the bees to start brooding when the first pollen is 3 months on, let alone the delta T issue For those who forget, we had this discusion 16 months ago, check archives dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 03:14:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: 'Tis a puzzlement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 21/01/2008 04:11:44 GMT Standard Time, beeman@GCI.NET writes: There were abundant stores and the bees had been able to fly, presumably one way, as late as a week ago. Looking at your location I wonder whether there might have been a very sudden temperature drop. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 03:43:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle/ proactive detection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 21/01/2008 04:11:31 GMT Standard Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: I should rephrase somewhat: are there Russian queen producers out there who will *guarantee* that I will find bitten mites on sticky boards after installing their queens? I though that was normal! I have Amm mongrels in the UK. A proportion of the fallen mites always shows dents in the carapace that look mandible sized. I have monitored the proportion and found it increased over time. If this doesn't occur in some strains of bee then it suggests that it really is damage by bees and not, for example, dehydration of an already dead mite. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:48:09 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: 'Tis a puzzlement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Looking at your location I wonder whether there might have been a very sudden temperature drop. Or something uncommon like someone running a chainsaw nearby the hive... Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:35:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Genetic Diversity (was New Zealand Breeding) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:46 PM 1/18/2008, you wrote: >I am certain there are several persons on this list that can add to our >understanding of whether it is reasonable to comment on whether 50, 800, or >any other number of breeder queens can be said to provide insufficient >genetic diversity. I'd like to hear them. Most discussions on the number of required breeders center around maintaining enough sex alleles to have a minimum 85% brood viability Laidlaw & Page state that only 35-50 breeders are required to maintain the viability for 20 generations, 25 breeders if queens are replaced with their own daughters, and they suggest that even fewer would be required if brood viability was one of the criteria used for selection. At first these number may seem terribly small, but it's implied that the breeders are not simply daughters of the same queen (as you might get buying 50 queens from a large queen producer), and all are mated with a mixed pool of drones. So each queen may contribute 2 alleles of their own and 8-10 from the sperm they received with simple insemination. For 35 queens that's like pulling 420 letters out of a hat hoping to get one copy of the alphabet. You stand a good chance of having the full set of alleles (the alphabet) you started with in each generation. Of course sex alleles aren't the whole picture and many closed breeding programs have brought in outside stock with care to obtain traits not already in the selected breeders. I'm not sure how one would go about estimating the number of breeders needed for all traits needed now and for future needs, and no number could guarantee it. So Laidlaw & Page suggests 50 is perfectly fine for a breeding program (it's actually at the upper limit), but I would expect they will bring in outside stock periodically. -Tim ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:00:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Video: Israeli Honey Offers Hope to Cancer Patients MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Video: Israeli Honey Offers Hope to Cancer Patients By Nicky Blackburn, Israel 21C, 1/21/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/01/video-israeli-honey-offers-hope-to.html ...It took 30 years of research to develop LifeMel Honey. Produced by bees fed on a special nectar derived from 40 therapeutic herbs including Siberian ginseng, Echinacea,uncaria tomentosa, and other natural ingredients such as iron, protein and vitamins, the honey has been shown in a clinical trial to be effective in decreasing the incidence of anemia in cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:14:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: March 29, 2008 Albany NY Seminar, Southern Adirondack Beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guest Speakers & Topics:=20 Dr. Zachary Huang, Michigan State University: "Honey Bee Photography" = and "Do GMO Crops Affect Bees?"=20 Dr. David Tarpy, North Carolina State University: "Honey Bee Anatomy" = and "The Life of a Worker"=20 Dennis vanEnglesdorp, Pennsylvania State Apiarist: "CCD Update" and = "Hobbyists Are the Future"=20 Full details and registration forms are available at: http://www.adirondackbees.org/dl-docs/2008-03-29-seminar.pdf Aaron Morris - thinking SABA rocks! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:08:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron Taylor Subject: Question to beposted. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey: I am a Jouneyman Beekeeper from Cottageville SC. Over the years I have thought why is it that a feral bee colony can survive in the wilderness. Whereas if a beekeeper install a 3 pound package of bees with a queen. Feends them sugar water until comb is developed. A check to make sure the queen is laying. Using a deep brood box. Why can't these bees survive without the help of a beekeepers just as the feral bees have survived? Just a thougfht. I have yet got an answer. Ron Taylor Geechee Hobey Farm Cottageville SC ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:30:19 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: 'Tis a puzzlement In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Chris, Two things: I very aware of sudden temperature drops, but they have never had any significant impact on my hives. Four sides and top are insulated with 2 inch blueboard. We had some cold weather, but not anything sudden that would trouble the bees. Our climate here is milder than the northern interior states in the contiguous 48. A lot of marine influence. Thanks > Looking at your location I wonder whether there might have been a very > sudden temperature drop. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:32:26 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: 'Tis a puzzlement In-Reply-To: <20080121.054809.15224.1@webmail10.dca.untd.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Not as far as I know, these hives are in Anchorage - a normal city residential area. > Or something uncommon like someone running a chainsaw nearby the hive... Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:40:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: ccd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave I get the feeling that you believe that your evidence of CCD are these bees with cabin fever who are making cleansing flights and freezing up on the ground? how many years of experience do you have in over wintering your hives ? speaking from over a decade of wintering bees in central MN and sharing info with other stationary beeks up here I would say that anyone who keeps honeybees in the north with 3-5 months of winter has seen this behaviour time and time again. IMO this is normal behavior during winter. >From the FAQ's on CCD on the MAAREC website question number 1 "What is CCD? Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) is the name that has been given to the latest, and what seems to be the most serious, die-off of honey bee colonies across the country. It is characterized by, sudden colony death with a lack of adult bees in/in front of the dead-outs. Honey and bee bread are usually present and there is often evidence of recent brood rearing. In some cases, the queen and a small number of survivor bees may be present in the brood nest. It is also characterized by delayed robbing and slower than normal invasion by common pests such as wax moth and small hive beetles. " dead bees from cleansing flights in mid winter has nothing to do with the CCD symptoms described above. i wrapped 280 hives before winter and every single yard has dead bees on the ground right now as they do every winter that we have "normal" subfreezing temps for months. as i mentioned last week I'd be very concerned if my yards were free of dead bees on the ground. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:05:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Question to beposted. Comments: To: "Ronald W. Taylor" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ron Taylor wrote: Why can't these bees survive >without the help of a beekeepers just as the feral bees have survived? Just >a thougfht. I have yet got an answer. Hello Ron, All my bees are captured from feral populations and are doing rather well without treatments. Feel free to contact me off list for details. naturebee@yahoo.com Also, Check out: FeralBeeProject.com Best Wishes, Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:05:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Question to beposted. In-Reply-To: <00a001c85c58$950b91e0$0400a8c0@ronamd> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron Taylor wrote: > Why can't these bees survive without the help of a beekeepers just as > the feral bees have survived? Just a thougfht. I have yet got an > answer. > If all feral bees survived, we would be up to our armpits in bees. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:59:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Question to beposted. In-Reply-To: <00a001c85c58$950b91e0$0400a8c0@ronamd> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Dr. Keith Delaplane, U of GA Entomologist, newly established bee tree colonies have only a 25 percent survival rate through the first winter, and those that make it that far last about three and a half years on average. I've had many property owners tell me "those bees have been there forever". Chances are the tree or building in question has seen several die-offs and new swarms without the property owner noticing. "... why is it that a feral bee colony can survive in the wilderness. ... Why can't [package] bees survive without the help of a beekeepers just as the feral bees have survived?" ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:15:44 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: ccd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 21/01/2008 01:21:40 GMT Standard Time, bobbee@INTERLOG.COM writes: Have you checked? > Hi Chris and all Dave lives 100-200km northeast of me. Tonight at 6:30 it is -14C cooling down from a high today of -10C. His weather will be cooler. As all beekeeping is local, no opening hives here yet. I take that to be a 'No' then. When I learnt beekeeping I believed the books that said that brood rearing ceases in winter. Now I know that this is not so, at least in this area (southern UK). A beekeeper in the far north of England where it is much colder (by our standards) by way of study opened her hives all through one winter and found no broodless period. So it isn't true there either. Would you like to check yours, Bob, and report? If you don't want to tear your hive apart, how about surreptitiously dangling a thermometer in the cluster (or an electronic probe of you have one handy) and see if they are maintaining brood rearing temperatures (34C I think) in the centre? If they are maintaining that temperature can you think of any reason for that except for rearing brood? Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:10:27 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: ccd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 21/01/2008 20:51:19 GMT Standard Time, amesfarm@HOTMAIL.COM writes: It is characterized by, sudden colony death with a lack of adult bees in/in front of the dead-outs. Honey and bee bread are usually present and there is often evidence of recent brood rearing. In some cases, the queen and a small number of survivor bees may be present in the brood nest. It is also characterized by delayed robbing I saw exactly this several times in the early days of Varroa before I got into regular treatments, on one occasion 4 workers and the queen, with no robbing even though it was early-mid autumn and there were plenty of wasps about. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:47:25 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: ccd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>To my utter amazement there were a few bees flying today (>5,<10) Either these bees are desperately short on something or something inside the hive is driving them out. If they are not short on honey, pollen, and water, try to think of other factors (excessive varroa treatments, pesticide-laden pollen, excessive moisture due to inadequate ventilation). Chemical contamination may become unbearable to confined bees. I know it's cold and I don't know you apiary setting but, if you feel you may be losing this hive(s), I'd handtruck a hive into an unheated barn/garage and inspect it. Cover all windows so no daylight will attract the bees and set up an extension cord with a single cold/screened light right over the hive being inspected. If you smoke them well and go slow, you will not lose bees. It would behoove you to try to find out the root cause of your bees' untimely flying. You seem positive about having ccd but I just have not heard of ccd driving bees out into the cold. This could be something new but I would try to rule out as many of the more conventional factors as possible first. >>There were only few bodies in snow... When I rapped on all hives I heard .... silence ... I realized that looking in the top hole moving bees were visible in 7 of 8 hives You might want to put your ear up to the hive wall were you think the cluster might be. You should hear the bees 'rustling' inside. If you don't, put your ear to the opposite side. >>FWIW my average brood-free time is 130-135 days (p2e) It would be rather foolish for the bees to start brooding when the first pollen is 3 months on... How did you determine the length of your brood-free period? When you say brood-free do you mean 100% brood-free? A lot of colonies will start a small clutch of brood with the increase of daylight in January. This small patch will steadily grow with favorable conditions until it reaches the full-scale build-up stage when pollen becomes available. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************