From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:14:57 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, ALL_NATURAL,AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 218AB490AF for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3YXN017258 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0802A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 106513 Lines: 2365 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 11:48:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Varroa in South Africa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A little winter reading: "ANALYSIS OF VARROA DESTRUCTOR INFESTATION OF SOUTHERN AFRICAN HONEYBEE POPULATIONS" Dissertation submitted in fulfillment of the requirements for the degree of Master of Science in the Faculty of Natural & Agricultural Science, University of Pretoria by MIKE ALLSOPP upetd.up.ac.za/thesis/available/etd-08082007-153050/unrestricted/dissertation.pdf http://tinyurl.com/yteskf * * * EXCERPT: A final behavioural characteristic, the possibility that worker cell size was responsible for the observed tolerance in Africanized and African honeybees caused great excitement in beekeeping circles with beekeepers in Europe, USA and New Zealand producing African-bee sized foundation on which to keep their bees. African worker cells are approximately 4.7mm in diameter, compared with 5.1mm for European bees. The idea was that these African cells did not have enough room for varroa mites to reproduce, and originated with Message & Concalves (1995) who reported lower varroa reproduction and lower varroa infestation in the smaller Africanized cells. Medina & Martin (1999) also found increased varroa offspring mortality in worker cells of Africanized bees, compared to European bees, and suggested this was because of the reduced cell size of African bees. However, none of the early studies separated cell size with other African (or Africanized) characteristics, such as a shorter post- capping period. More recent studies (e.g Taylor 2005), using only European bees but with different cell sizes, has shown that smaller cells do not limit mite infestation or mite reproduction, and that smaller cells might actually increase varroa infestation rates. Taylor M (2005). "Varroa destuctor Not Thwarted by Smaller Cells". Scottish Beekeeper 82, 252-253. * * * Peter L. Borst Contact me if you are unable to use the link ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 20:42:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Neuroprotective Compound Found in Bee Products MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Neuroprotective Compound Found in Bee Products Presence of Kynurenic Acid in Food and Honeybee Products Amino Acids, 2008 Jan 30 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/02/neuroprotective-compound-found-in-bee_02.html Kynurenic acid (KYNA) is an endogenous antagonist of ionotropic glutamate receptors and the alpha7 nicotinic acetylcholine receptor, showing anticonvulsant and neuroprotective activity. In this study, the presence of KYNA in food and honeybee products was investigated... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 10:11:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Trial of HoneySuperCell small cell combs Comments: cc: "Dee A. Lusby" , Mark Hamby MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi All, I have just posted preliminary results of my trial of HoneySuperCell small cell combs to my website. Look for it under "Varroa Management" at www.scientificbeekeeping.com. Of interest to me is that apparent lower mite level in the treatment group is contrary to data by others who have tested beeswax small cell foundation. So I don't know if the apparent effect is due to the small cell size, or to some other factor of the plastic combs. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 16:59:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Trial of HoneySuperCell small cell combs Comments: To: randyoliver@infs.net Comments: cc: office@honeysupercell.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/02/2008 11:11:49 AM Mountain Standard Time, randyoliver@infs.net writes: > have just posted preliminary results of my trial of HoneySuperCell small > cell combs to my website. Look for it under "Varroa Management" at > www.scientificbeekeeping.com. > > Of interest to me is that apparent lower mite level in the treatment group > is contrary to data by others who have tested beeswax small cell foundation. > So I don't know if the apparent effect is due to the small cell size, or to > some other factor of the plastic combs. > Randy, I always got lower mite counts and those doing what I was doing also always got smaller mite counts. It's when they cannot seperate the normal yearly transfers of mites from drone cells to worker cells and then count and get higher levels that I think they are missing the boat..............Also some don't do proper ratios of number of cells per sq decimeter and then compare to size, while knowing that mites fan out first to 1 per cell and then go higher in each individual cell., so they do ether rolls or other etc and take a general count without looking at tech what they are counting and time of year. D- ************** Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp0030000000 2548) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 16:29:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Buckfast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Re. the Buckfast Bees in CO, I lived in Golden, CO for ~5 years and kept Buckfast I got from Weaver. They were great bees, but as Peter said, the second generation will not be pure Buckfast. The queens come artificially inseminated with the Buckfast genes so the offspring are pure Buckfast. When the queen dies (naturally or otherwise), the new queen mates with any old group of drones that might be flying around. So the next generation of bees will not be pure Buckfast. I didn't have any trouble with 'hot' bees in the second generation but I guess it depends on what drones mate with the queen. Just FYI. Mike ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 18:23:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Varroa in South Africa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst: Taylor M (2005). "Varroa destuctor Not Thwarted by Smaller Cells". Scottish Beekeeper 82, 252-253. Reply: Interesting!!!..... I found the Taylor work on beesource and recognised it. It's the bad New Zealand test worth nothing, in which different pieces of cellsize wax foundation were put into LC bees and drawn and brooded. ... Knowing that the mites go into different size cells by order of size and royal jelly trigger for JGH, funny in a way!.......... But then what do I know at my age! Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 14:01:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Screen Bottoms or Less Stresds? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank It has been touted by many that screen bottoms produce stronger = colonies. Is it the bottoms or the reduced mite loads that produce the = effect? I do not us them ( drone brood removal) and my colonies are also = much stronger and more productive. I am, until proven otherwise, of the = belief that the relieved mite load stress is to take credit.=20 I think on way to verify this would be to run an experiment with = solid against screen bottoms, using drone brood removal in both sets. = Would the screen bottoms be the winners? I have my opinions but will = wait for the evidence. Perhaps Randy would like to put this to test? BTW, Randy has a very informative site, Something that the industry has = needed for some time. Alden Marshall Hudson, NH ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 14:01:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Bee Venom Therapy Effective for Pain Management MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Bee Venom Therapy Effective for Pain Management Bee Venom Acupuncture for Musculoskeletal Pain: A Systematic Review The Journal of Pain, Published online 28 January 2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/02/bee-venom-therapy-effective-for-pain.html Abstract: Bee venom (BV) acupuncture (BVA) involves injecting diluted BV into acupoints and is used for arthritis, pain, and rheumatoid diseases. The objective of this systematic review was to evaluate the evidence for the effectiveness of BVA in the treatment of musculoskeletal pain... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 16:07:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Screen Bottoms or Less Stresds? In-Reply-To: <007601c86698$62a016a0$0201a8c0@BLINE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ALDEN MARSHALL wrote: > I think on way to verify this would be to run an experiment with solid against screen bottoms, using drone brood removal in both sets. You can do it. I have run my own trials but to compare overwintering in Maine with open or closed screen bottoms.So it is not rocket science.(Closed works better but bees can make it through a Maine winter with open screens.I can't.) Truth is, most of what I have seen shows that screened bottoms only delay the inevitable. You will also find that most who have success with them and credit the screens also treat, which is the real reason for low mite loads.I do use screens but closed below them so they act like a solid bottom. The best of both worlds. If the Fox pre-game show was not so lame I would never have turned on my computer.Anyway, Aaron, go the other guys. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 21:45:16 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Screen Bottoms or Less Stresds? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I think on way to verify this would be to run an experiment with solid against screen bottoms, using drone brood removal in both sets. Would the screen bottoms be the winners? I have heard it said that screen boards won't take care of the mites by themselves. No doubt they will eliminate some mites but the affect will be less than desired. My appreciation of the screened boards is for the much improved ventilation in the hot summer. Also, a lot of hive debris falls through the screens making it easier for the bees to keep up with the housekeeping. In the summer I have nearly full screens on the bottoms and tops of all of my colonies. With enough supers on, I rarely see a bee beard at the entrance. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 13:57:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Screen Bottoms or Less Stresds? In-Reply-To: <007601c86698$62a016a0$0201a8c0@BLINE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > Alden said: Perhaps Randy would like to put this to test? Thanks for the suggestion, Alden. Randy would like to put lots of things to the test, but Randy is currently buried in current tests plus data processing (months behind on processing hard-earned sugar dusting data). Good tests are time consuming, fraught with likely failure due to the learning curve and Murphy's Law, often require taking a lot of colonies out of normal use, may take hundreds or thousands of mind-numbing mite/spore/weight, etc counts, and then the hours to enter and process the statistics. Even after all that the results may be ambivalent, or don't meet a P<.05 level), or the highest hurdle of all, the James Fischer analysis : ) One does not take on a "test" frivolously, but must carefully choose where one spends their limited time and resources. The data to date on screened bottoms is mixed and inconclusive (see biotechnical control article on my website). One can easily make a case for, and possibly against. I personally find them to be positive, and would recommend for the hobbyist. Commercial beeks would need to take a hard look at cost/benefit. In any case, I am glad to see beekeepers asking for hard data, rather than touting various treatments and management practices based upon folklore and say so. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 19:03:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Varroa in South Africa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: >I found the Taylor work on beesource and recognised it. >It's the bad New Zealand test worth nothing You overlook the main point of the excerpt I posted: > none of the early studies separated cell size with other African (or Africanized) characteristics, such as a shorter post- capping period. What he means is that if if you use Africanized bees, you don't know if it's the small cells or some other factor, such as hygienic behavior, post-capping time, or perhaps an as yet unidentified character that controls varroa. Furthermore, it has been observed that varroa are far less trouble in a tropical or sub-tropical climate than they are in a climate like we and the Europeans have, further complicating the question. We have very long days in spring and summer and rapid colony build-up. This is followed by a huge increase in varroa which tends to overwhelm the colony in late summer when the colony is supposed to be raising winter bees. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 19:43:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Screen Bottoms or Less Stresds? In-Reply-To: <007601c86698$62a016a0$0201a8c0@BLINE> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3-Feb-08, at 2:01 PM, ALDEN MARSHALL wrote: > > I think on way to verify this would be to run an experiment > with solid against screen bottoms, using drone brood removal in > both sets. Would the screen bottoms be the winners? > Hi Alden and all I use screened bottoms on most of my hives and will convert the others this season. I don't believe that screened bottoms can replace drone brood removal or any other method, however, mites that fall through the screen to the ground are gone so that screened bottoms help. Several years ago the Ontario Beekeepers Association Tech Transfer Team did a test of several non- chemical methods to control varroa. As I recall, drone brood removal was the best of the methods tested. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 22:11:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: APIS MELLIFICA, OR HONEY BEE by Isaac Peirce Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Seeking a text copy of: APIS MELLIFICA, OR HONEY BEE. by Isaac Peirce, ,,,read before the Delaware Academy of Natural Science, and ordered published in May 22 of 1828 in Wilmington, Delaware. I have the article, it is quite wonderful, but 5% of it appears unreadable. I would love to know more about Isaac Peirce, and information about the proceedings of the Delaware Academy of Natural Science during the period would be extremely helpful. I will submit the article to BeeL readers when I finish the text file. Please send to: naturebee@yahoo.com Thanks in advance! Joe Waggle Historical Honeybee Articles ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 22:30:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Varroa in South Africa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst: You overlook the main point of the excerpt I posted: > none of the early studies separated cell size with other African(or Africanized) characteristics, such as a shorter post- capping period. Reply: Oh, I sorry, with your reading of these studies here. I thought having been through this before with me you would have remembered for shorter post-capping period what we had done with our bees way back in the early to mid-1980s even we had checked out with our first regression with smaller cell size to 5.0mm even. So cell size would already be seperated here from African as our state of Arizona wasn't even declared AHB on paper until about mid-1990s thereabouts. http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/abjnov1989.htm Also, Peter,you say: What he means is that if if you use Africanized bees, you don't know if it's the small cells or some other factor, such as hygienic behavior,post-capping time, or perhaps an as yet unidentified character that controls varroa. Reply: Here is some more of the other factors we were considering back then for controlling varroa in an overall program, that I am still following by the way and many I am helping! http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/apiacta1992.htm Also Peter here is some data showing smaller cell size making a difference in just months of using, since only thing changed was the cell size to smaller yet.Please note that the bees were already down much in size and we were now fine tuning for secondary control of fouls fwiw.OUr bees were living with 5.0mm to 5.1mm sizing, but we needed more control of stress items.Again, nothing changed but the size for putting in new to hives. I/we had spent most of '96 making the foundation for using getting equip ready, and spring '97 switched for secondary controls, again changing only the cell size. Bees still the same, and even today haven't seen differences fwiw for the worser, in fact only seen for the better. http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/abjdec1997.htm D- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 17:50:04 -0800 Reply-To: John Caldeira Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Caldeira Subject: Creative Beekeeping: Ideas from Eastern Europe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Beekeepers interested in the artistic, cultural or historical aspects of beekeeping may be interested in the presentation I gave a few weeks ago to my local beekeeping association. It was intended to inspire beekeepers to go beyond the white boxes. http://www.outdoorplace.org/images/Creative_Beekeeping_Europe_Caldeira.pdf Some of this material is duplicated in part on my website, but there are also some new photos, too. It's a 7MB file, so please be patient while it loads before paging ahead. Sincerely, John Caldeira john@outdoorplace.org http://www.outdoorplace.org/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 05:27:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Medical Honey-Producing Trees to be Planted, Studied in Australia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Medical Honey-Producing Trees to be Planted, Studied in Australia Medical Honey Trial in Dam Plan The Gympie Times (Australia), 2/5/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/02/medical-honey-producing-trees-to-be.html Whether the Traveston Crossing Dam goes ahead or not, part of 2000 hectares of land acquired by the State Government to offset carbon emissions will be used for a trial plantation of medical honey-producing trees. Medihoney, a world leader in the medical application of honey, has reached an agreement with Queensland Water Infrastructure to source the land for the trial and will begin planting Leptospermum - commonly known as Teatree - within the next six months... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 08:23:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Torrey Subject: CCD Research In-Reply-To: <331589.4635.qm@web51612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The 2009 President's budget contains $0.8 million dollars for research to determine the role of pathogens and stress factors possibly involved in ccd and mitigating their effects. BeeKeeper in Maine. --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 13:42:39 -0500 Reply-To: david.meldrum@verizon.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "David.Meldrum" Subject: Dyed cotton as smoker fuel MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My wife is quilter which means I have an infinite supply of cotton scraps. I have always been wary about using them for smoker fuel because of the dyes. Is it safe for the bees to burn dyed cotton as smoker fuel? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 15:22:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Dyed cotton as smoker fuel Comments: To: david.meldrum@VERIZON.NET In-Reply-To: <47A8AE1F.9080404@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello David & All, I can not see a health issue for you or the bees with dyed cotton. I have seen cotton used but I can not say I ever ran across a beekeeper which used cotton as his smoker fuel of choice. I have used cotton on rare occasions myself. An example would be the time I was moving bees in rain in hot weather. Bees needed smoke and the smoker fuel box was empty. Grass was wet. One of my favorite flannel shirts ( I was wearing) went up in smoke! In my opinion cotton burns strange and is either too hot ( flames when pumped) or going always out. I think there are better choices for smoker fuel but maybe on the list are beekeepers which use cotton exclusively for smoker fuel. Years ago I soaked my smoker fuel in salt peter and I believe I had better luck using cotton then. Now I prefer burlap but will use most dry grass as fuel if nothing else around. A funny story which I posted on BEE-L years ago but worth repeating. When the fiber smoker fuel plugs first came on the scene all the bee suppliers were handing out samples so I kept tossing in a box by my smoker shelf. Finally I decided one spring I needed to use the fiber fuel. So I did. I was going into a bee yard one day and the smoker was in a metal bucket on the flatbed. The land owner was standing by the truck talking to me. He kept talking about all the kids growing pot and the problems. He kept bringing the subject back to pot. Then he made a sniffing gesture with his nose. I laughed till I had tears in my eyes. he thought the smell of the smoker fuel plug was pot! I showed him a pound smoker fuel plug and then we both laughed. I am glad we settled his curiosity so word would not have been spread by the land owner about the pot smoking beekeeper. A metal smoker box is a good investment but I have only a smoker box on one of my trucks. I am not sure exactly how many times I have had a smoker burn up in a metal bucket on the box of a flatbed truck. The smoker get hot from the wind going down the road and sets whatever might be flammable in the bucket on fire. I know there is not supposed to be anything flammable in the bucket but even a wooden entrance reducer can cause enough fire to catch the bellows on fire! I usually use a spent 12 gauge shell casing to plug the smoker hole but those get lost over time. A hand carved piece of wood works too! Even the beekeepers favorite tool. Duck tape! Will help plug the smoker hole and save smoker fuel and cut down on a chance of fire. Ok lurkers here is a post all beekeepers can get involved in! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 16:38:36 -0500 Reply-To: david.meldrum@verizon.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "David.Meldrum" Subject: Re: Dyed cotton as smoker fuel Comments: cc: "waldig@netzero.com" In-Reply-To: <20080205.122748.21228.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Oh heavens no. But I doubt anything is natural anymore. Thing is I can get a lot more fabric than I would ever burn up. - Dave waldig@netzero.com wrote: > Can you determine if the dyes are natural or synthetic? > ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 19:59:07 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: From Kim Flottum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Column in the dailygreen http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/blogs/bees/save-the-bees-ccd-45013008 -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 17:44:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Dyed cotton as smoker fuel In-Reply-To: <77616B3B696C4A3596FE8AB8546CFC8F@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "I think there are better choices for smoker fuel but maybe on the list are beekeepers which use cotton exclusively for smoker fuel." My family's old blue jeans (also cotton) get cut up for smoker fuel. The denim burns longer than my other choice, pine needles, and gives off good smoke. I usually throw a handful of green grass on top before closing it for a cooling effect. Eugene Makovec Kirkwood, MO USA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 16:13:47 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Molokai Meli LLC Subject: Dyed cotton as smoker fuel Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > We usually have an abundance of stuff of the ground for smoker fuel, > but it doesn't always light easily. We use the lint from our clothes > dryer's lint trap as a great starter! > > Molokai Meli > Molokai, Hawaii ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 04:34:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Smoker Box In-Reply-To: <77616B3B696C4A3596FE8AB8546CFC8F@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote:A metal smoker box is a good investment but I have only a smoker box on one of my trucks. I use an old 50 Cal ammo box. Holds everything I need for my smoker, including starter. When I'm finished, I pop the lid on and lock it down. Airtight. I'm sure the fire suffocates within minutes. Never had a fire in the box, even with included combustibles. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 05:42:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Bee Venom Component Inhibits Spread of Tumor Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Bee Venom Component Inhibits Spread of Tumor Cells Melittin Prevents MHCC97H Cell Metastasis Through Inhibition of the Rac1-Dependent Pathway Hepatology, 31 Jan 2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/02/bee-venom-component-inhibits-spread-of.html Abstract: Melittin, a water-soluble toxic peptide derived from bee venom of Apis mellifera was reported to have inhibitory effects on hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC). However, its role in anti-metastasis and the underlying mechanism remains elusive... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 09:20:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DAVID ADAMS Subject: Re: food for thought In-Reply-To: <853964.87984.qm@web53403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After reading some of the information on all the different pesticide residue found so far in the bee hive, I am wondering if any of the deep thinkers have looked very closely at what residues are in the fruit and vegatables we are eating. I would think that if the bees are getting some of this from pollen,some of it in low levels would be in the end product( fruit or veggie).Anyone know of any studies on this ? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 10:12:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dan&jan Subject: Re: Dyed cotton as smoker fuel In-Reply-To: <269B48CC-D459-11DC-B87B-000A95DCAD7C@iglide.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Molokai Meli LLC wrote: >> >> We usually have an abundance of stuff of the ground for smoker fuel, >> but it doesn't always light easily. We use the lint from our clothes >> dryer's lint trap as a great starter! >> A cautionary note--. make sure the burlap is NOT from balled and burlap nursery stock- much is treated and will kill your bees. My favorite source is burlap from coffee roasters as it is clean. Dryer lint may contain polyester fibers as well as cotton. I would be nervous about polyester smoke. Dan V in the mountains of NC ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 10:22:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: food for thought Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DAVID ADAMS wrote: > I am wondering if any of the deep thinkers have looked very closely at what residues are in the fruit and vegatables we are eating. * The benefits of eating more vegetables and fruits strongly outweigh any potential risks from pesticides. * When it comes to cancer risk, there is no convincing evidence showing a difference between organic and conventionally grown foods. Market studies show pesticide residues on conventionally grown foods are almost always within safety tolerance limits. If you are concerned about pesticide residues and can afford to spend more, organic produce may be a choice for you as long as the higher cost will not lead you to cut back on eating fruits and vegetables. However, for better health eat generous servings of a large variety of veggies and fruits -- whether organic or not. Copyright © 2008 American Institute for Cancer Research 1759 R Street NW, Washington, DC 20009 1-800-843-8114 (202-328-7744 in D.C.) http://www.aicr.org/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 09:58:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: food for thought MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Veggies are washed before being eaten, most of the time. Bee hives are not ever washed while in use. Washing could remove some of the residual traces. However, if the residues are internal, then washing is useless. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 06:02:04 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Molokai Meli LLC Subject: Re: Dyed cotton as smoker fuel In-Reply-To: <47A9CE5C.7070905@skybest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Dryer lint may contain polyester fibers as well as cotton. I would be > nervous about polyester smoke. > > Dan V in the mountains of NC Thanks for the caution Dan. I didn't think about that, but we don't wear polyester here. Everything's cotton. Molokai Meli in Hawaii ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 08:09:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bman140 Subject: Re: Dyed cotton as smoker fuel In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eugene wrote: My family's old blue jeans (also cotton) get cut up for smoker fuel. The denim burns longer than my other choice, pine needles, and gives off good smoke. I usually throw a handful of green grass on top before closing it for a cooling effect. That's exactly what I use for smoker fuel. I cut mine up in approximately 4" strips across the legs & then cut once to make a long piece of material. I then roll them into a roll like a tootsie roll. I stand 3 or 4 up in the smaker. They seem to stay lit better this way because air can move through them. Without the grass on top, the smoke is a little too hot. I also have found that sissle rope works great too, especially if it's been raining & everything is wet. I buy a big roll of it at Home Depot. I take a 3 lb. plastic coffee can, cut the hand holds out of it & the roll fits in it tight. This keeps it from unwinding on me. I pull the string out of the center & wrap it around my hive tool until I get the size ball I want to use & cut it. Works great. I still put somethind on top to assure a cool smoke. It works for me. Just my 2 cent offering. Ed --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 08:22:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Dyed cotton as smoker fuel In-Reply-To: <47A9CE5C.7070905@skybest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Dryer lint may contain polyester fibers as well as > cotton. I would be > nervous about polyester smoke. I also use dryer lint as starter fuel. It burns up so quickly that I figure any polyester fumes are long gone before I approach the hives. Eugene Makovec Kirkwood, MO USA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 09:09:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: food for thought MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There has always been a vocal minority of scientists who claim even minor exposures to synthetic man made pesticides are dangerous. Hence the public continues to worry about trace amounts of pesticides in their food and the environment. Here's an example with regard to the garden insecticide Malathion: http://www.chem-tox.com/malathion/research/ Leukemia - Child leukemias develop after homes sprayed Kidney Damage- Physician finds kidney damage after patient sprays home Human Birth Defect - suspected from exposure to malathion lice shampoo Brain Damage - for unknown reasons malathion causes far more damage in older brains Chromosome Defects - found in human blood cells Gene Loss - malathion is able to literally "knock-off" genes from our DNA molecule Health Disorders found in Second Generation Offspring - evidence for harmful effects appearing in future generations Lung Damage - unusual effect from malathion ingredient - not found in other pesticides Birth Defects - occurs in hens after malathion feeding Immune System Weakening - thereby increasing risk of bacteria or viral infections (2 studies) Fish Heart Defects - heart defects appear in exposed fish Fish Gill Damage - low levels of malathion cause deterioration of Blue Fish gills Turtle Birth Defects - turtles unusually sensitive to birth defects Frog/Tadpole Mutations - evidence of genetic damage. Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 18:44:45 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Preston Adams Subject: Re: Dyed cotton as smoker fuel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi There In Ancient Egypt they used dried cow dung for smoking ,which gives off a pleasant fragrant cool low lying smoke and calms the bees Preston > > ****************************************************** > * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * > * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * > ****************************************************** ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 12:03:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: food for thought In-Reply-To: <36985523.517601202307629992.JavaMail.root@md15.embarq.synacor.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello David & All, David asked: > After reading some of the information on all the different pesticide > residue found so far in the bee hive, I am wondering if any of the deep > thinkers have looked very closely at what residues are in the fruit and > vegatables we are eating. As a small fruit grower and a grower which grew organically for around thirteen years I asked the same question. The last 17 years I have used IPM and usually 1-2 sprays in early spring. I usually spray a spray which says you can eat the fruit the next day ( like spectricide) and cut the spray (per label) in half with water( which is legal). other factors are used also such as disease resistant varities and only organic compost I make myself. Strong trees are essential. Better stop now as I love to talk trees. I can honestly say that before the new neonicotinoids came on the scene (imidacloprid in 1994 in U.S. registered by Bayer) the sprays used on most crops posed only a slight risk to the consumer. I attended for many years the Missouri fruit conventions although I was very small scale ( still are with around 60+ production trees) but was asked to speak many times on pollination. We had a medical doctor( and grower with hundreds of trees) in our group. He did quite a bit of testing on fruit as far as the levels of pesticides when sent to the consumer. I learned quite a bit from his presentations. In apples he said only the skin had dectectable pesticides and when applied according to label well within the range considered of no risk to humans. He went on to comment as Jerry B. has about the pesticides we are exposed to everyday in the environment and felt there was little risk back then to the consumer from current pesticide sprays. He was concerned about the risk to pesticide applicators and explained how dangerous application was. He had a new John Deere tractor with a cab and air filter system to protect the sprayer he showed us on one of the tours of his operation I attended. He felt current regulations on spray protection were lacking and spraying of chemicals were a big risk to the applicator. He quoted many times figures on health problems of workers involved with the spraying of chemicals and said many could be avioded if the industry had better protection for people applying pesticides. > I would think that if the bees are getting some of this from pollen,some > of it in low levels would be in the end product( fruit or veggie).Anyone > know of any studies on this ? Glad you asked David. I did the article no author of bee articles wanted to touch. An article on the new systemic pesticides (neonicotinoids) and will be published in the April American Bee Journal. I had to be very careful on wording. The big issue is that the chemical companies have quietly converted most of our pesticides to systemic over the last six years. Plenty of cases around of problems from systemic pesticides of the past . I did use one example in my article of one of the first attempts by a chemical company using a systemic pesticide (temik on citrus) and why the product was banned for use on citrus. Here is a documented case I wanted to use in my article but didn't: The reason I did not is that all I am trying to do is make the public aware. Make beekeepers aware. Systemic pesticides are so scary most people can only take a small dose at a time! Also its easier to prove a point by bringing up past documented problems with systemic to prove a point rather than try to point the finger at the new systemic which are so new we really know little about what problems they are currently causing . I will use the watered down Wikipedia version of things which all can easily check: "Temik is a pesticide ,the active ingredient of which is aldicarb. The effectiveness of temik depends on systemic activity. It is now owned & MANUFACTURED by Bayer Crop Science ( which also registered the systemic pesticide imidacloprid in U.S. in 1994 ), but was formally owned and produced by Union Carbide." "In the summer of 1985 nearly 100 people in the western U.S. & Canada were poisoned by residues of temik in watermelons" How dangerous is temik? from some research I found. " one teaspoon of temik is enough to kill a grown Rhino. This substance is more poisonous than arsenic" >From a northern beekeeper not wanting to provide his name when questioned about temik: He said he could put a teaspoon of temik on meat to kill a bear and the bear would be found dead a short distance from the hives. temik was finally banned in the U.K. in 2007. So to answer your question David. My *OPINION* based on my research doing the article for ABJ is that the new neonicotinoids with be found in fruits and veggies. First in PPB, then PPM, Then we will see poisonings similar to those with temik. However I am only a beekeeper and not a chemist. I will say I have passed on some documented temik research into chemical company circles so maybe the companies will police themselves. The neonicotinoid train is full speed with over 190 brand names. Slowing the train needed to have been done a decade ago with a wait and see policy in my opinion. I hope I am wrong in my *OPINION*. Why has not the health food crowd protested the use of systemic pesticides? I approached a local health food store owner and she did never heard of systemic pesticides. Imidacloprid is the new chemical of choice for treated wood (leaching into ground water?) and the new treatment for termites in Florida (leaching into Florida water supplies with a 14 foot average water table?). Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 13:35:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: food for thought Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Imidacloprid was first registered for use in the U.S. in 1992 and is possibly the most widely used insecticide of the [Neonicotinoid Pesticides]. It has a wide range of target pests and sites, including soil, seed, structural, pets, and foliar treatments in cotton, rice, cereals, peanuts, potatoes, vegetables, pome fruits, pecans, and turf. It is a systemic with long residual activity and particularly effective against sucking insects, soil insects, whiteflies, termites, turf insects, and Colorado potato beetle. Products are available in dusts, granules, seed dressings as flowable slurry concentrates, soluble concentrates, suspension concentrates, and wettable powders. The application rates for neonicotinoid insecticides are *much lower* than older, traditionally used insecticides. Because the neonicotinoids block a specific neuron pathway that is more abundant in insects than warm-blooded animals, these insecticides are more selectively toxic to insects than mammals. The most available toxicity data of the neonicotinoids is with imidacloprid. These data indicate that it is less toxic when absorbed by the skin or when inhaled compared to ingestion. It causes minor eye reddening, but is non-irritating to the skin. Signs of toxicity in rats include lethargy, respiratory disturbances, decreased movement, staggering gait, occasional trembling, and spasms. There are *no accounts* of human poisoning, but signs and symptoms of poisoning would be expected to be those similar for rats. A chronic toxicity study showed that rats fed up to 1,800 ppm resulted in a No Observable Effect Level (NOEL) of 100 ppm. The EPA categorizes imidacloprid as a "Group E" (no evidence of carcinogenicity). In animals and humans, imidacloprid is quickly and almost completely absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract, and eliminated via urine and feces within 48 hours. Of the neonicotinoids, imidacloprid is the most toxic to birds and fish. Both imidacloprid and thiamethoxam are highly toxic to honeybees. from Pesticide Information Office, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida. Original publication date October 2005. Visit the EDIS Web Site at http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 14:35:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Imidacloprid represents the new generation of neurotoxic insecticides, which exhibit more selective toxicity for insects relative to mammals. Since being introduced in the insecticide market in 1992, the use of imidacloprid has increased yearly. It ranked as one of the top selling pesticides in the world in 2001-2002. For the most part, it is replacing the acetylcholinesterase inhibitors, the organophosphorus compounds and methylcarbamates. Many organophosphates are potent neurotoxins, functioning by inhibiting the action of acetylcholinesterase (AChE) in nerve cells. They are one of the most common causes of poisoning worldwide, and are frequently intentionally used in suicides in agricultural areas. Their toxicity is not limited to the acute phase, however, and chronic effects have long been noted. Neurotransmitters such as acetylcholine (which is affected by organophosphate pesticides) are profoundly important in the brain's development, and many OPs have neurotoxic effects on developing organisms even from low levels of exposure. examples: * malathion * diazinon * phosmet (Imidan(R)) * chlorpyrifos (Lorsban(R)) Some of the organophosphates are very toxic. Parathion, for example, is 30 times more toxic than DDT. Each year organophosphates poison thousands of humans throughout the world, causing hundreds of deaths. Medical personnel caring for poisoning victims are also at risk. They may be seriously poisoned by the excretions of, and even the vapors emanating from, their patients. Carbamate insecticides are also inhibitors of acetylcholinesterase, but their action is reversible. Some examples: * carbaryl (Sevin(R)) * aldicarb (Temik(R)) * methomyl (Lannate(R)) Features: * These compounds are rapidly detoxified and excreted so their risk to warm-blooded animals is less than the other agents we have looked at. * They are degraded rapidly in the environment so persistence is not a problem. * They are, however, a danger to many useful insects, especially honeybees. -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 17:23:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, The subject line is misleading "imidacloprid vs organophosphates". The two are different in one important aspect and not talked about at all in Peter's post. Imidacloprid is systemic and the organosphates are NOT! If the neonicotinoids were not systemic then perhaps I would feel like the move to neonicotinoids over organophosphates is the right way to go. A lifetime in agriculture and attending many farmer family members funeral which died from rare forms of cancer has hardened me! The chemical companies said DDT was safe enough to drink. Safe enough to handle with bare hands. I personally do not accept what the chemical companies are putting out as fact. Go back and read what they said about DDT when released. Of course the record now has been changed but I was around back then! The organophosphates when first released. Little was said of the organophosphates and their war years mustard gas background. There are other choices for pesticides which are not organophosphates and are not the systemic neonicotinoids. Thanks for the post Peter! Keep the posts coming! All people need to be aware of what exactly our pesticides are! Most Agriculture chemicals are made in a laboratory from some pretty scary stuff and sell for over a $100 a gallon. A friend in the chemical business told me once that chemical companies at times only had a few dollars invested in each gallon. To save money most chemical companies want as many insects as possible on the label and the concoction is strong enough to kill the hardest to kill insect on the label which means overkill if your pest is fairly easy to kill. I attended many organic meetings years ago and the subject of chemical pesticides came up often. I personally would like to see all applicators of toxic class pesticides registered and go through training. Only the mildest pesticides available to the general public. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 19:13:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: food for thought Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 12:03:55 -0600, Bob Harrison wrote: > >I can honestly say that before the new neonicotinoids came on the scene >(imidacloprid in 1994 in U.S. registered by Bayer) the sprays used on most >crops posed only a slight risk to the consumer. I manage 1800 apple trees in Mn along with 300 colonies as my full time profession. I disagree with Bob's comments above. Organophosphates are an off shoot of nerve gas made in the early 1900's . Various environmental groups have pushed to have this class of chemicals delisted for use after about 2012. Ironically the neonicotinoids were developed as a more environmentally freindly alternative to the posionous organophosphates. Contrast this with neonicotinoids http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.pharmtox.45.120403.095930 ▪ Abstract The neonicotinoids, the newest major class of insecticides, have outstanding potency and systemic action for crop protection against piercing-sucking pests, and they are highly effective for flea control on cats and dogs. Their common names are acetamiprid, clothianidin, dinotefuran, imidacloprid, nitenpyram, thiacloprid, and thiamethoxam. They generally have low toxicity to mammals (acute and chronic), birds, and fish. In short neonicotinoids are safer to humans then organophosphates. In the upper midwest few apple growers use neonicotinoids since they are very expensive and only work on plant sucking pests. The 3 main disease and pest problems here are scab, apple maggot and codling moth ...none of which can be controlled with neonicotinoids. Its a non issue in my book at least with apples in this region. Citrus though is another story. There are several emerging new pests attacking the citrus industry. when I spoke to a FL Ag dept citrus expert last year he indicated that use of neonicotinoids is growing but the cost issue is real there too. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 20:26:04 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: food for thought Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...what residues are in the fruit and vegatables we are eating. I would think that if the bees are getting some of this from pollen,some of it in low levels would be in the end product( fruit or veggie).Anyone know of any studies on this? The Environmental Working Group compiled the 'dirty dozen' list of fruits and vegetables from thousands of USDA studies(http://www.foodnews.org/fulldataset.php) The dirtiest were peaches and apples while onions were the cleanest. The number of different pesticides is [suprisingly] high although the PPM levels appear not to be so. One needs to decides for oneself though - especially if your healthy diet is based mostly on vegetables and fruits. I looked into this a little more when a couple of years ago my right arm broke out in a nasty rash after eating a bunch of fresh strawberries from Chile. I have nothing against Chile or China or any other country but there is very little inspection of imported food by the FDA and I don't know if those countries follow even the US standards. Good advice is to eat mostly fruit that is in season so you have a higher propability that it was grown locally or at least in the US. Organic is better than conventional but if you use conventional, for whatever reason, use a good veggie wash to greatly reduce pesticides and pathogens. A basic, homemade veggie wash is a mixture of cider vinegar and hydrogen peroxide 1:1. Generously spray your fruits and vegetable with the veggie wash and let sit for about 10 minutes. Rinse thouroughly in warm water. We do it as soon as we bring the produce home from the supermarket. This, by the way, should reduce ecoli and other nasty bacteria. I peel the skin of fuzzy fruit like peaches before eating. I think everyone with a backyard should grow as many fruits and vegetables as they can. Not only will you be able to avoid pesticide residue, your produce will be properly ripened greatly increasing its enzyme, vitamin etc. content. Not to mention the psychological boost. We use horse manure from the lady two houses over as fertilizer and don't use any pesticides. Perishable fruit at the supermarket will have been sprayed with preservatives to prevent natural spoilage. It's better to buy the frozen versions - like frozen strawberries - since they will have much fewer preservatives and will be much more ripened. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:10:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob Harrison wrote: >I personally would like to see all applicators of toxic class pesticides >registered and go through training. Only the mildest pesticides available >to the general public. Yes, well, as I have said before, I have been certified in New York State to use and advise on pesticides. A phrase like "only the mildest pesticides" completely dismisses the complexity of the issues. Formic acid, for example, can peel off your skin, but when properly applied, it is safe for bees and kills mites. Coumaphos, an organophospate, is mild enough to hold in your hand, and is safe if applied correctly. However, if absorbed repeatedly over a period of time, Coumaphos affects the nervous system through cholinesterase inhibition, the blockage of an enzyme required for proper nerve functioning. Organophosphate insecticides include some of the most toxic pesticides. They can enter the human body through skin absorption, inhalation and ingestion. They can affect cholinesterase activity in both red blood cells and in blood plasma, and can act directly, or in combination with other enzymes, on cholinesterase in the body. Cholinesterase , or acetylcholine, produced in the liver, is one of many important enzymes needed for the proper functioning of the nervous systems of humans, other vertebrates, and insects. The health effects of organophosphates, carbamates, and other cholinesterase inhibitors are dose respondent: the amount of the chemical and the duration of exposure are directly proportional to the severity of the symptoms. Imidacloprid is notable for its relatively low toxicity to most animals other than insects. This potentially allows for lower concentrations to be used for insect control than other neurotoxins (particularly organophosphates) and enabling its use in applications as diverse as flea treatments for pets, control of beetle larvae in lawns, eradication or prevention of termite infestation in buildings, and other uses where animals and people may be exposed. It is rated as an "unlikely" carcinogen by the EPA (group E), and is not listed for endocrine, reproductive, or developmental toxicity, or as a chemical of special concern by any agencies. It is not banned, restricted, canceled, or illegal to import in any country. I am not FOR or AGAINST any particular pesticide. With pesticides, less is usually better. If a product kills pests quickly and dissipates, obviously that is better for the non-target organisms (birds, bees, you and I). Slow release chemicals are far more insidious, and especially ones that accumulate in the food chain, such as mercury and DDT. Does Imidacloprid cause colony collapse? I don't have any idea. It is certainly plausible, but that doesn't make it so. -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 15:47:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: food for thought In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > If you are concerned about pesticide > residues and can afford to spend more, organic produce may be a choice for > you as long as the higher cost will not lead you to cut back on eating > fruits and vegetables. However, for better health eat generous servings of a > large variety of veggies and fruits -- whether organic or not. > > Copyright © 2008 American Institute for Cancer Research > 1759 R Street NW, Washington, DC 20009 > 1-800-843-8114 (202-328-7744 in D.C.) > http://www.aicr.org/ Just in case you think organic is safe, a recent article in Science News found that E coli can transfer into plant tissues so washing will not remove it. This was discovered with the spinach that caused sickness recently. The spinach came from a field that was in transition from conventional to organic. So, if the fertilizer used is organic and not properly sterile, you can have transmission of E coli to the plant's tissues and impossible to remove unless you cook it. This has resulted in some draconian rules that attempt to totally eliminate all possible contamination to veggies in Cal and elsewhere, including the elimination of hedgerows, any vegetation within a certain distance, deer fences, etc. all to keep any possible E coli contamination from the crops.In effect, the rules remove all bee forage from the area and make it into a sterile wasteland. Needless to say, it has the native pollinators supporters and others in a uproar, for obvious reasons. However, it is market and safety driven. Hard to fight food safety. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 14:05:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: food for thought In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, I visited the site Peter posted doing my research. What I love about these sites (beekeeping also) is that they delete their former recommendations when new information ( problems?) comes up. If a member of the list has in the past printed off or saved what was on the Florida site about temik from the time period it was first approved for use YEAR AROUND for citrus I would very much like to hear from you. I was raised in Florida and owned acreage in the panhandle at the time. I had a well which I was getting drinking water from at about the 20 foot level. temik was in use around me. I found in several places Imidacloprid was registered in March of 1994. I am not sure why the Florida site says 1992? If I was to give a guess I would say the writer of the information made a guess as the person simply says a year without giving the month. > Imidacloprid was first registered for use in the U.S. in 1992 and is > possibly the most widely used insecticide of the [Neonicotinoid > Pesticides]. > The application rates for neonicotinoid insecticides > are *much lower* than older, traditionally used insecticides. The above statement has little to do with the issue but I am sure impressed the uninformed person. > The most available toxicity data > of the neonicotinoids is with > imidacloprid. its hard to find any data on many of these new neonicotinoids registered which kind of points to the fact they are being registered off information off other prior registrations. Painting all neonicotinoids with a broad brush. A very broad brush! >These data indicate that it is > less toxic when absorbed by the skin or when inhaled compared to > ingestion. Duh! > It causes minor eye reddening, but is non-irritating to the skin. Signs of > toxicity in rats include lethargy, respiratory disturbances, decreased > movement, staggering gait, occasional trembling, and spasms. > Not what I want in a glass of water! What about insect sub lethal doses and leaching into water supplies? > Of the neonicotinoids, > imidacloprid is the most toxic to birds and fish. Both imidacloprid and > thiamethoxam are highly toxic to honeybees. Amen! > from > Pesticide Information Office, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, > Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida. > Original > publication date October 2005. Visit the EDIS Web Site at > http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu. > I think concerning aldicarb its fair to say "last updated Oct. 2005". I would suggest those interested in the subject visit the above website Peter posted and take a look at : " Specifically Regulated Pesticides in Florida-Aldicarb" Also realize Temik was regulated very different years ago until problems started happening. The label I have from years ago reads very different. Nothing is said at the above site about *why* regulation of temik changed. Maybe one of Florida's best kept secrets! I will tell you. Serious water contamination and aldicarb found in oranges and orange juice. Temik ( the red haired step child of systemic pesticides ) bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 21:36:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter L. Borst wrote: > The health effects of organophosphates, carbamates, and other > cholinesterase inhibitors are dose respondent: the amount of the > chemical and the duration of exposure are directly proportional > to the severity of the symptoms. Yes, dose (concentration & time) dependent. And some organophosphates are not seriously toxic to people at the actual use dilutions used. Examples: A 0.5% strength Malathion formulation is EPA approved for use on childrens heads (with a doctor's prescription) to control head lice: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Final_Michigan_Head_Lice_Manual_103750_7.pdf "The lotion is applied to the hair, left to air dry, then washed off after 8 to 12 hours." This 0.5% strength that is approved for use on children's heads is 5 times stronger than the 0.1% strength typically used to spray crops and home gardens. Dichlorvos, another organophosphate, is EPA approved for fogging food processing plants and food storage warehouses. I've sold tens of thousands of gallons of it over the past 24 years to California's almond, walnut and pistachio processing and packing plants. Chlorpyrifos-methyl, another organophosphate, is EPA approved for post harvest use directly on barley, oats, rice, grain sorghum and wheat being conveyed into grain bins. Ditto for pirimiphos-methyl on corn. http://www.ext.vt.edu/news/periodicals/cses/2005-10/grain.html At least one organophosphate, Acephate, is a systemic as well as a contact insecticide. This evening I was at a Hope Depot that sold Ortho Orthene Systemic garden spray (contains acephate). Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 05:37:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Patient: Honey Wound Treatment 'Just Like a Miracle' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Patient: Honey Wound Treatment 'Just Like a Miracle' Honey of a Cure: Woman's Wound First to be Healed By New Treatment By Brett Dalton, Lee's Summit Journal (USA), 2/5/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/02/patient-honey-wound-treatment-just-like.html Having unsuccessfully tried various treatments, the medical staff at St. Mary's asked Overman if she'd be willing to let them administer a new type of treatment - one which they hadn't tried on too many patients. Overman, just wanting the wound to be gone, happily obliged... In late November 2007, Overman began receiving the Medihoney treatment, a wound dressing that St. Mary's recently began trying on a few patients, said Debbie Cobb, a registered nurse at St. Mary's who helped with Overman's procedure... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 05:37:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Bee Venom Peptide Keeps Neurons Alive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Bee Venom Peptide Keeps Neurons Alive Scientists Stop Brain Cells Dying By Anelle Miles, The Courier Mail (Australia), 2/7/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/02/bee-venom-peptide-keeps-neurons-alive.html ...Dr Coulson said a peptide found in bee venom called tertiapin had worked to keep neurons alive in the laboratory and in chicken embryos. But years of research is ahead before scientists can apply their discovery to humans... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:01:44 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Gmo Petition in Europe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The GMO situation in Europe culminated with a petition Dec/07 submitted to the German Government _http://itc.napier.ac.uk/e-Petition/Bundestag/view_petition.asp?PetitionID=603 _ (http://itc.na pier.ac.uk/e-Petition/Bundestag/view_petition.asp?PetitionID=603) The following is a rough translation . Is this matter dead in North America or what's happening? Biotechnology - genetic engineering: Cultivation and new permission of genetically changed organisms Submitted through: Bernhard Kletzenbauer on Monday, 17 December 2007 With the Petition it is to be achieved that genetically changed organisms (GVOs) are not patented and are not without exception legally forbidden in the land and forestry. With the Petition it is to be prevented that the biological variety is lost in of Germany soils and agricultural products through pollution with GVOs always. The sensitive ecological equilibrium of all natural organisms must remain preserved. Reason: Incontestable fact is that set free organisms are completely backgetable from nature never more; also not GVOs, which later prove as large danger. They remain limited not to the place of origin, but increase inexorably. Past, genetic changes in organisms show that the results are unforeseeable, and genetic manipulation in the agriculture no reliable method represents. Poison manufacturers and large seeds companies aim at a world-wide monopolistic position. By means of patented, genetically changed seeds, which are to become dependent on these companies only once out-germinated (terminator technology) farmers. The genetically changed plants cross with related wild plants and with kind-same plants from biological cultivation. Thus soon the entire existence of this kind is contaminated by foreign genes with unknown consequences. Release of genetically changed kinds makes breeding work for many decades worthless. Follow a genetic pollution are unforeseeable and often unfavorable for humans and nature. Genetic changes can be made purposefully, but work after the method of trial and error. Since an unimpaired coexistence of natural and for genetically is not possible changed kinds, German citizens at the end would be forced to eat exclusively genetically changed agriculture products. A freedom of election does not exist no more, as soon as all disappeared genetically unchanged products. Past purity requirements of the food cannot be kept no more. By unforeseeable education of new protein materials into the GVO it can come to the occurrence of new allergies. The combination of total herbicide and resistant useful plants does not produce ever dagewesene mono-kulturen. The susceptibility of these monokulturen opposite diseases and parasits one will try to adjust with more poisons and for genetic manipulation - a vicious circle develops. Nature will form fast resistant kinds against new poisons, to near-breed so that one new superweeds, instead of reducing it. Genetic manipulation in the agriculture produces no lasting values for later generations, but destroys their irreplaceable natural bases of life. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:17:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: food for thought Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Just in case you think organic is safe, a recent article in Science News found that E coli can transfer into plant tissues so washing will not remove it. This was discovered with the spinach that caused sickness recently. Bill is absolutely right. Organic is best when it comes to having food with least pesticides. One still has to take care of the hygiene aspect, or rather the lack thereof. All food should be washed with something like viniger/hydrogen peroxide mixture. It will drastically reduce/kill E. coli and other bacteria (http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-08022001-104536/unrestricted/JohnSchurman.pdf) This gives you an alternative to cooking to eliminate the bacteria risk. One should eat some vegetables in the raw form to get most of the nutritional benefit. One should use the veggie wash with one's home grown veggies, too, since bacteria can be transferred onto the plants from the natural fertilzers and the soil. Unfortunately, one can't take care of this when eating at restaurants where the staff is likely not to follow the ''staff must wash their hands thoroughly before returning to work'' signs. >>This has resulted in some draconian rules that attempt to totally eliminate all possible contamination to veggies in Cal and elsewhere, including the elimination of hedgerows, any vegetation within a certain distance, deer fences, etc. These desperate measures are misplaced IMHO. This greatly reduces the biodiversity. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 12:07:16 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: food for thought In-Reply-To: <20080207.061757.8109.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Waldemar You are cordially invited to visit Chile. I could arrange a great Technical Visit for you to see our food industry, specially vegs&fruts. Most of our export is produced under HACCP, ISO9001 and it is certified for Euregap and the like. However I prefer the local ones not for export as they are tastier. I love to spoon a fresh "sandia with harina tostada" for less than US$2 (Sandia: watermelon: Harina tostada: toasted wheat flour) and a "melon with white wine" cool in the river is a must over here after a long day in the bee yard!!! Come mucho, caga forte y no temas a la morte !!!! -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:09:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: <47AA98C8.39BE@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Paul & All, Thanks for your post! I always appreciate your input. You know far more about pesticides than I ever will. I only looked into the neonicotinoid issue for the American Bee Journal to inform beekeepers (and maybe others) about exactly what neonicotinoids are in terms beekeepers can understand. The pros in certain circles for their use are powerful such as systemic , deadly to most insects and easy to apply. fairly non toxic to humans unless you drink a glassful. The cons are they are systemic and deadly to most if not all insects (depends on dose but buildup in soil happens causing the next seasons dose hard to regulate.) Systemic is what most users of the product love about the product and what beekeepers dislike. We believe as Paul has pointed out there are better choices of pesticides to use around honeybees. Also I think all of us should be concerned with systemic pesticides in our water supply. Temik was one of the first systemic pesticides and basically was a failure. The product in liquid form kills people, Rhino or bear. The product was found both in oranges & the water supply. One chemical company employee said during our conversation: " You know about temik?" "I wish you would keep to yourself" The records of the problem on the net are fast disappearing but those growing orange trees at the time and users of the product are still around. The product is still available in the U.S. Its entirely possible the new neonicotinoids will not contaminate water if used correctly. Time will tell. However I think its fair to say the neonicotinoids will cause collateral damage to both honey bees and beneficial insects. It is my *opinion* that some in the chemical industry know this but are not interested in solving the problem (or even making an attempt at improving the situation through educating growers of better choices for pesticides from their arsenal.) In the small country of France it took 120,000 dead hives to get government and chemical company attention. The chemical company case was not good enough to keep selling the product. FACT! In the U.S. we have got a beekeeping family with hive numbers approaching the above number! 2 million hives maybe at risk. Why can't we simply sit down and work through the issue without all the battle. Yes we need pesticides! Yes we need the bees and beneficial insects! Has to be some common ground! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:06:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: food for thought, e coli, and a short rant In-Reply-To: <20080207.061757.8109.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: >>> I wrote- Just in case you think organic is safe, a recent article in Science News >>> found that E coli can transfer into plant tissues so washing will not remove it. >>> > > > All food should be washed with something like viniger/hydrogen peroxide mixture. It will drastically reduce/kill E. coli and other bacteria (http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-08022001-104536/unrestricted/JohnSchurman.pdf) > > This gives you an alternative to cooking to eliminate the bacteria risk. One should eat some vegetables in the raw form to get most of the nutritional benefit. To make it clear, the finding was that E coli is in the plant tissue, not on it, so washing does nothing. The problem is that organic fertilizers (manures) can have E coli if not properly cured. Also, hedgerows and strips of grasses and other vegetation harbor snails and the like which also can spread it. Add varmints, and you compound the problem. So many organic practices have a higher probability of spreading E coli than commercial practices. I do not doubt that some of the measure were taken just because it fits commercial practices, including large scale "organic" farms. Many of the large organic farms in Cal are both organic and not organic, such as the spinach that was between both worlds. Grown on a once traditional field which was in the process of becoming organic. It is nice to see posts on pesticides and GMO on this list since we seldom talk about them, and, when we do, the discussion is always so cordial. I just wonder where we are heading in this 100% safe, risk free culture. More and more studies show that all that crud out there in our environment can help, especially in things like asthma, digestive problems and even diseases if children are exposed to them early in life. Problem is we want an aseptic world where no dirt enters our child's mouth. Something as bad as intestinal worms has been shown to help with several diseases since they trigger the immune system to work properly. Many autoimmune diseases are not found in the third world where sanitation is poor because the immune system is trained properly. Let's not forget bee stings which kick up the immune system, helps with MS and arthritis, yet you can get sued if your bees take it out on the 1-800-SUE THEM crowd. Bill Truesdell (1-800-BEE NICE) Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 19:58:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob Harrison wrote: >> The application rates for neonicotinoid insecticides are *much lower* than older, traditionally used insecticides. > >The above statement has little to do with the issue but I am sure impressed the uninformed person. Nicely put, Bob. I emphasized the words *much lower* because this is a very strong selling point for imidacloprid. It is much safer for the *people* exposed to the insecticide. Especially attractive to applicators is pre-treated seed, since they don't have to handle the chemicals at all. I understand that as a beekeeper you are focused on the potential damage to bees, but all insecticides present a risk to bees. One also has to weigh the risk to the applicators, to non-target organisms and to consumers. If Gaucho-treated corn and sunflowers are toxic to bees, maybe beekeepers need to keep their bees away from them. Not every location is a "good location". -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:27:11 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: food for thought Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Juanse, >>You are cordially invited to visit Chile. I could arrange a great Technical Visit for you to see our food industry, specially vegs&fruts. Thank your for the invitation. [I'd like to visit Chile and Argentina in the coming years...] I hope you were not offended by my remarks. Those Chilean strawberries were very tasty and may have been raised to strict standards. I am thinking that they may have been sprayed with some sort of preservative(s) to stay unspoiled during transit and when they sit days in unrefrigirated supermarkets for days. My garden-picked strawberries would not last that long. >>Sandia: watermelon: Harina tostada: toasted wheat flour) and a "melon with white wine" cool in the river is a must over here after a long day in the bee yard!!! Come mucho, caga forte y no temas a la morte !!!! Mucho gusto. That's living to the fullest. :) Waldemar- Barros J. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 22:04:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6-Feb-08, at 10:10 PM, Peter L. Borst wrote: > > It is not banned, > restricted, canceled, or illegal to import in any country. > Hi Peter & all Is not Imidacloprid still banned in France? Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:47:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: I've had enough. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEE-L is closed. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************