From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:15:07 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31B3A490B1 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y7a017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0802B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 150474 Lines: 3412 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 12:03:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: drivert and nulomoline Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am looking for a source of drivert and nulomoline to make candy with. I found a supply in Spokane, but the shipping was too expensive. Does anyone have a line on these products in W. Canada... or else have a name of a good bakery supply place they use for specialty sugar products (like fondant)? I've tried Mann Lake already and they don't have it. Please send responses directly to me at melathopoulosa@agr.gc.ca. Thanks in advance, Andony ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:08:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: bee-l is bacl online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thanks to all who sent words of encouragement while BEE-L was off line. There were more than I could answer individually. BEE-L was closed due to technical difficulties. The techinical difficulties involved loosely veiled threats of retribution in various and sundry forms and demands of what I must do to satisfy the allegedly aggrieved person. after tyring to reason with the alleged aggrieved party, I thought it best that I be quick to end the threat, hence the temporarily closing. After a very trying weekend, I have decided to satisfy the demands of the allegedly aggrieved party. Hereafter, any post submitted to BEE-L even vaguely mentioning said aggrieved party will die in my inbox. I had to make a long drive this weekend to address business of my State Beekeeping Association. While I was driving I thought of the following analogy. If someone requested a ride to my meeting, I would gladly accommodate the request and cheerfully give the person a ride in MY vehicle. I would NOT ask for gas money and I wouldn't tell my rider what they could or could not wear. I would tell my rider beforehand that they could not smoke in MY vehicle, and I would inform them ahead of time that I like to listen to audio books while I drive. If the rider told me that they must smoke and cannot tolerate audio books I would tell them, "Sorry, I can't give you a ride." My rider agrees not to smoke and looks forward to hearing a good book. So now my rider and I are driving in MY vehicle on a long trip, listening to an audio book (currently _Legacy_of_Ashes_ by Tim Weiner, a fascinating history of the CIA). But I digress. I'm listening to my audio book, and my rider keeps blabbing away any I'm having a hard time keeping focused on my audio book. After 40 miles I realize I really haven't heard any of the last few tracks, so with dramatic flourish I skip back a few tracks and politely tell my rider that the conversation is interfering with my desire to my audio book. My rider apologizes, and stays quiet for a few miles, then starts up a conversation again. After another 40 miles of distraction, I politely tell my rider that the conversation is not welcomed and I insist that they sesist. After five more miles my rider starts a heated conversation bsaying that if I would drive a little faster we'd get to Syracuse sooner and we wouldn't have to listen to this boring history of the CIA. After all, my rider knows all about the Bay of Pigs and could tell Tim Weiner how his perspective is all wrong, and how he is a real son of a bee for getting it all wrong! I remind my rider that we agreed that while we were riding in MY vehicle, we'd be listening to an audio book, and that when we ride in MY vehicle, as the driver of MY vehicle I set the cruise control at the speed limit so I can get a few more pages out of the trip, and that doing so assures I will not get speeding tickets and that audio books have helped curb former aggressive driving habits. Audio books have made me a "Reformed Vehicular Terrorist". So now my rider's beef with how Tim Weiner wrote HIS book that we're listening to in MY vehicle becomes a verbal attack on ME, with vague references of trying to wrest the wheel away from me so we can drive faster and lister to punk rock. Then my rider lights up a cheap cigar! As far as I know, my rider is still in Syracuse. With no fanfare, BEE-L turned twenty years old last June. I did not "own" BEE-L for all of those years, it was originally "owned" by Dr. Ed Southwick who worked at SUNY Brockport. BEE-L has always been hosted at the University at Albany. When Dr. Southwick passed away, BEE-L would have been retired had I not continued its sponsorship. LISTSERV lists hosted at the UAlbany require an annual renewal. If the sponsorship is not renewed, the list is retired and the archives are purged. Guidelines for posting are available at Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm If you ride in MY vehicle, smoking is not allowed and the rules of the ride are not open to discussion. Call me a fascist, some have, it's in the archives! Archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l Aaron Morris - 20 years and counting! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 19:59:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > However I think its fair to say the neonicotinoids will cause collateral > damage to both honey bees and beneficial insects. But CCD is appearing in places where Imidacloprid isn't hardly used. Example: I doubt there is any significant quantity of imidacloprid treated corn or sunflowers grown in western Montana and yet on Dec. 11 Jerry Bromenshenk said their Montana colonies: "were going down last week in our storage shed. One looked like classic CCD" Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 05:08:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Antibacterial Activity of Stingless Bee Honey Rivals that of Manuka MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Antibacterial Activity of Stingless Bee Honey Rivals that of Manuka Antibacterial Activity of Honey from Stingless Honeybees Polish Journal of Microbiology, 2007, Vol. 56, No 4, 281-285 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/02/antibacterial-activity-of-stingless.html ...In the present study, we clearly showed that honey from stingless honeybees possesses strong total and non-peroxide antibacterial activities using the same method for measuring the UMF number, suggesting that the antibacterial activity of stingless honeybees is powerful, even when compared to those of manuka honey... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:35:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: bee-l is bacl online Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here is a favorite quote of mine from Dostoyevsky's book "The Possessed": “Ah, my dear friends!....you have no idea how sad, how bitter one feels when a great idea to which you have devoted your life is taken over by inexperienced, clumsy hands that drag it out into the street and share it with other fools as stupid as themselves. Then you suddenly come across it in the flea market, unrecognizable, grimy, presented from a ridiculous angle, without sense of proportion, without harmony, used as a toy by stupid brats. Oh no, it was different in our time! That’s not what we were trying to achieve. No, no, that’s not at all what we were after! I don’t recognize anything today.... (Andrew R. MacAndrew translation) Thanks Aaron, for turning the list back on. I know you aren't actually the sad and bitter type, because I've met and talked with you a few times. But, like most of us, the urge can sometimes be pretty strong to just toss your hands in the air and say to hell with it. I'll say one more thing, you've certainly got a higher frustration tolerance than I do! Regards, Dick Allen ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:33:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: ccd almonds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit trying again And BTW Aaron who should we 'tiptoe' around? some thoughts, no observations I hope The almond guys know that full formic is a semi effective treatment for ccd (X) The hive will still be infected, but will not crash You'll probably end up putting 3 pads/year Welcome to the 21st century Effect is noticeable day 10, increased morale etc DON'T put on straight off truck, they would kill Q At least 2d to settle They may kill a few Q still, temp dependant mostly Remember X is fairly infectious, anything within 1/2 flight is at risk Luckily their flight efficiency is impaired too, many die on the ground The big problem with X is its long life I suspect that is a constant source of reinfection in the hive Is it carried on your hands, clothes? Ah Ken, you haven't been following my thread Read it all, you see I got about 20-25% ccd covered More treatments are needed, 2 is not enough Last year I was a bit slow off the mark, a few tests remain to try. But I have to patiently wait 3 months And to correct record I am retesting S, it may have long term effect If you use any of my ideas feel free to publish, that's the price dave **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:41:43 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: Hooray - the list is back! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was sweating, wondering if my most favorite of lists was no longer. BEE-L is my connection to the world of beekeeping. Here on Oahu, we don't have a lot of truly experienced beekeepers (we do have wonderful resources on the Big Island), so BEE-L is my surogate teacher, my mentor. I cannot hop in my car and go to one of the big events on the mainland, rub shoulders with big and little beeks. So, BEE-L, you are my conventions. I don't have TV, so BEE-L, you are my TV Guide. You let me know when PBS airs a special and provide good reviews from all points of view. BEE-L, you are my movie critic. I've not seen the Bee Movie, but I've watched it through your eyes. BEE-L, you rock my bee world. It's like having all the journals rolled up into one nice package, complete with discussion groups. Whether you agree on a subject or not, you provide food for thought. So when "BEE-L is closed" showed up, I panic. Where will I go? How will I continue to grow? Will I bee doomed to an isolated existence? BEE-L guy, thank you for your work. While the return on your investment in time (and possibly funds) may be minimal, know that out here in this big world, that I appreciate you. I appreciate all of you that make BEE-L what it is, something that helps me bee a better beekeeper. Mahalo nui loa! Howard McGinnis Oahu, Hawaii **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:02:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit an article pertinent to the discussion http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/349263_pesticide30.html?source=mypi the 100,000$ question of course is what does chronic low level exposure mean to animals bees and humans? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 18:10:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: <47ABD3A4.325A@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello paul & All, Paul said: > But CCD is appearing in places where Imidacloprid isn't hardly > used. CCD for the most part seems to be a name for bees dying or deadouts. Actually very little of those deadouts contained the symptoms which fit the CCD team description. Many beekeepers filled out the survey hoping for a government handout. Ask for a survey this year and say a 3 pound package will given for each hive claimed as lost and see how the CCD states light up! Now there certainly are problems with our bees. I am in contact almost daily with commercial beekeepers and I can honestly say that most of those having troubles this year had troubles last year. A few new beeks are reporting troubles but most have a good idea what caused their losses. Also if the problem in Dave Hackenbergs bees had been a new pathogen then radiation would have solved the problem and it did not. Davy hackenberg said they are down to around 900 hives with only a third strong enough to split. So all thats left in the Hackenberg issue is contaminated comb which could not be removed by radiation. Hackenberg suspects neonicotinoids. I never said neonicotinoids are the cause of the so named CCD. However neonicotinoids in my opinion are causing some problems and in my opinion will continue to cause problems. The reason is they are systemic and can be found in both pollen and nectar. Also that the amounts found can change with soil buildup. Pesticide issues are difficult to prove but the chemical company has provided beekeepers with a PPM number which will kill bees. When we find dead hives and those PPM numbers then we know who owes us for the hives. If happens then if the payouts get too high for the chemical company then I would imagine some use on plants bees visit will be pulled. What I just said is not coming from me but commercial beeks pollinating neonicotinoid treated crops. I am not sure what might be in the planning stage for sub lethal damage to bees but the actual hive kills with high levels of neonicotinoids found will for sure result in a claim. My source said that the chemical company is responsible as they have said neonicotinoids would never be found other than small PPB amounts. So beekeepers have a starting point. Do you agree Paul that if beekeepers find a yard of bees dead and when the comb/pollen/honey is tested the level of neonicotinoids are at the level the chemical company has said with its own research is lethal to honey bees those beekeepers have got a claim? I do believe CCD is not caused by a new mystery problem. The CCD issue has resulted in many things learned about our bee problems and hopefully the 4 million research dollars supposed to be spent will result in new information which will help beekeepers. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:56:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob writes: > neonicotinoids in my opinion are causing some problems and in my opinion will continue to cause problems. The reason is they are systemic and can be found in both pollen and nectar. So let me get this right: pesticide companies should stop selling this stuff and growers should stop applying it because "in your opinion, it causes some problems"? Isn't it "their opinion" that it doesn't? I am not saying it doesn't, but shouldn't there be some evidence provided, Bob? pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:08:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, > I am not saying it doesn't, but shouldn't there be some evidence provided, > Bob? Imidacloprid is found in in all parts of the plant. Chemical companies do not deny the fact. Although they kind of did at first ( from transcripts of the France imidacloprid issue I read ) . Other insecticides which we have used for years are a very different breed of insecticide. Early attempts at systemic pesticides like *timek* were failures. I am going to ear mark this post and in a few years we will visit the subject again and see if neonicotinoids have been a problem. Too early in neonicotinoid history for proof now. If I was wrong in my *opinion*then I will say so! I can not provide proof they are not safe long term and the chemical companies can not provide proof the neonicotinoids are safe long term. dealing with problem chemicals is not new for chemical companies. ( Bayer sells temik systemic pesticide now banned in the U.K. ) temik is still available in the U.S. despite the huge number of lawsuits from the people poisoned ( over a 100 documented cases) from eating watermelons on which the systemic pesticide temik was used. Also found in high enough amounts for the state of Florida to limit the temik use on citrus. >From what I have read doing my research I would move fast to ban temik use on citrus completely but only my opinion. I think will happen if a consumer dies! To use the auto industry as an example. We had a young highway patrol officer burn to death in his patrol car (Ford crown Victoria ) a couple years ago. 100's of people have died the same way from rear end collisions in crown vics. Ford came out with a protective shield which Ford said would prevent the fires. The young highway patrolman's car had one of these installed before the crash. Highway patrolmen forced to drive crown vics all park their crown vics with the rear end pointed to the outside back ( rear of car pointed away from road) when doing a traffic stop for a very good reason. In short the gas tank needs relocated but there has been many other gas tank location problems. Ford pinto and Chevy truck are two in which many many people were burned to death in their vehicles. The auto companies simply are content to pay the law suits rather than solve the problem. The Ford pinto, older chevy trucks and the current long run of crown vics never had the gas tank locations changed. Efforts to get the gas tanks relocated on crown vics has been unsuccessful. Evidence exists that chemical companies and drug companies work on the same principal as the auto companies. Will honey bees be collateral damage from neonicotinoids? Time will tell. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:03:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, If beekeeper(s) find dead bees (colonies) and then have pesticide amounts verified - which data do they then relate to? Accepted LD. levels change over time as more investigation occurs. Is it possible to back claim if losses occur at for eg. 20ppb but accepted knowledge indicated the lethal dose at 200ppb - which is then reduced after a period of time to 10ppb ? The sub lethal effects - if bees are not dying "en masse" after one exposure - but indicate problems (behavioural or other) leading to eventual death or limitation resulting in financial loss to the beekeeper - Is a partial payment due from the party causing such, with the remaining fraction being the responsibility of "X"? With "Innocent till proven guilty" being a most demanding procedure to deal with - Who provides data accepted by all parties! - Self supplied data from protocols that are not necessarily covering questions that beekeepers ask do not lead to amicable resolutions. Regards, Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 05:23:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: New Method for Detection of Antibiotic Residues in Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII New Method for Detection of Antibiotic Residues in Honey Multiclass Determination and Confirmation of Antibiotic Residues in Honey Using LC-MS/MS J. Agric. Food Chem, February 8, 2008 http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/sample.cgi/jafcau/asap/pdf/jf073236w.pdf ...The method has been validated at the low part per billion levels for most of the drugs with accuracies between 65 and 104% and coefficients of variation less than 17%. The evaluation of matrix effects caused by honey of different floral origin is presented. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:54:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A visible and vocal accuser of the Imidacloprid claims in the USA is Mr David Hackenburg. He has not offered up one tiny shred of evidence or data to support those claims, not even a scientific study showing damage somewhere else. Just his claims every time the media calls or another CCD related documentary is made. Its a compelling sad story every time you hear him and I hate to see the guy lose his bees and his way of living. But lets be frank He has never offered up his medications records either. Would not we all like to know what he used for mite control in the last year. OR how about the last ten years? I find my bees don;t do well on comb thats 20-30 years old. I wonder how old his brood comb is? We don't have any of these pieces of data though. Bob there's an interview and article waiting to happen...UH? The claims of dying bees continue in the EU where Imidacloprid was discontinued. Was there not recently a rigorous EU based study that looked into Imidacloprid and found nothing related to bee die offs? My own little research showed that the Corn belt IA, NE, IN IL southern MN/Wis, MO had few if any credible CCD claims, at least no huge losses this past year or in 06/07. Certainly that region is ground zero for Gaucho coated corn. The situation though in citrus IMO looks more concerning. They have this new greening pest, they don't need pollination either. In the apple industry they need the beeks and usually will work with a beekeeper, to not spray during bloom. The greening problem though actually calls for spraying before or during bloom as a method of control. When I called the FL dept of ag pesticide enforcement folks they acknowledged the risk but pointed out these class of chems the neonictinoids are very expensive and not the first choice when loading the sprayer. It would appear any beeks trying to collect orange blossom would want to know the grove owners and have some understanding of who is spraying what in the area during bloom as this new pest takes over. With trends in a new direction for citrus greening, wether systemic chems are used or organophosphates I would think beekeepers who have the citrus bloom as part of their annual strategy would want to think twice about the risks. Common sense and concern for our bees would make any beekeeper wonder about the safety of systemic pesticides but we really have remarkably little scientific evidence after years of finger pointing at Bayer. I've kept bees for about 14 years now and will admit that since about 2002 or so its been more difficult. Some bees did not build up as I was used to in spring. The quality of CA queens went down the tubes with 50% superscedure. It got more creative to treat for mites in the post strip era. What changed for me is stopping the use of widely used strips and tossing 1000's of brood combs in to the burn pile. We now burn comb ever year - I mean spring deadouts make you wonder how much the comb contributed - can't see any back lit daylight though the comb - burn it. I stopped buying conveyor belt poorly mated queens too and became more selective in my apiary locations. I started charging more for my products to cover my increased expenses. Since then I have seen a marked improvement in the overall vigor of my bees and the bees seem as prolific as they were in the mid 90's when I got started. I'm not saying I have all the answers but I do feel that these issues I mention are real and documented unlike the speculative claims made about systemic chems - which to me sounds like a scapegoat and possible denial or reality unless the comb contamination, mite treatment, queen vigor and site selection issues are not addressed first. It takes years to paint yourself into the cumulative corner on these issues and years to get out. If these issues are affecting Mr Hackenberg for instance I would expect it would take him 2-3 years to move to a different management style and see some improvement. If he's not looking at his operation in light of some of the issues I discussed and waiting for a magic bullet to stop the Imidacloprid bogey man, I would think he will not last long. Its a new era in beekeeping some will thrive and some will not. What a story line that will be if he goes down.....the hype will probably sound like its the end of the honeybee all over again. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:07:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Name dropping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The past few posts have mentioned a specific beekeeper, who as far as I know does not participate or even lurk on this list. I'll remind readers and contributors that all messages are welcome, but messages naming messengers may open me up to abuse from allegedly aggrieved parties. Please refrain from naming names unless the name is yours. Frankly I doubt Mr. X would give a bee's behind regarding posts on this list, but hey, you never know! Stranger things have happened. Aaron Morris - thinking paranoia is a terrible disease! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:45:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Name dropping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I here yah Aaron and will respect that. On the other hand when a person regardless of what industry goes on record repeatedly when ever the media calls, that leaves him/her open to the kinds of speculation and discussion that we are engaging. He was brave enough to come forward with his losses in 2006 and he will take some heat too as this mystery unfolds. His practices are part of the discussion I'm afraid at this point. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:56:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Other insecticides which we have used for years are a very different > breed > of insecticide. Early attempts at systemic pesticides like *timek* were > failures. Some minor corrections- Actually, systemic pesticides have been around for well over 30-40 years.I know, since I bought some over-the-counter back about 1970. There are lots of them now. Many contact pesticides are much worse for bees (Sevin is classic) than many systemics, even when used according to directions. Think pollen. It was Union carbide, not Bayer, that manufactured temik at the time of the watermelon posionings(1985). http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9E03E2DF1738F933A25754C0A963948260 As noted in the article it was not used according to directions. Plus it is still in use. Bayer owns it now. It is used on many crops. It is a nasty insecticide, but is one of the few that works against certain pests, hence Florida allows it with citrus crops.I am not sure you can call it a failure since it still is in use some 20+ years later. Even the PBS show noted that Frances bee problems had not gone away after the gaucho ban. The driving force behind the ban was not beekeepers but a rival French chemical company which had a competing product. The French company piggy-backed on the hysteria to drive out competition. There was a massive bee die-off after gaucho from another pesticide. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:23:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: <47B09A75.70405@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bill & All, Bill said: I know, since I bought some over-the-counter > back about 1970. I can say for sure you never used a neonicotinoid systemic back then. I personally have never heard of an over the counter systemic before the neonicotinoid revolution. I knew about temik and knew the product was registered first by Union Carbide and then sold to Bayer. However Bayer owned the product when problems started in Florida. > There are lots of them now. Yes but all I know about are neonicotinoids. 190 plus brand names. Systemic is fairly new to the growers I am in contact with. Sevin & Penncap M. are their chemicals of choice. Used correctly I have not got problems with either. > > Many contact pesticides are much worse for bees You make a point and a point the beekeeping industry thought was fact. Now we wonder. There still is not a lot of concern in beekeeping circles until we see bigger losses which can be traced back to the new lab created neonicotinoids which are in our plants. > Even the PBS show noted that Frances bee problems had not gone away Sorry but my contacts are beekeepers in France. PBS can say what they want. I tried to line up two noted French beekeepers to speak on imidacloprid at the convention in California but the people in charge seemed to think maybe learning to make lip balm or creamed honey was of greater value ( kidding!) My offer was rejected (maybe due to cost involved). >There was a massive bee die-off after gaucho from another pesticide. I will try and check this out but something I have never heard before. Can you share the source of your information Bill? Bill ( or another member with a high speed hook up) can you find and post why the U.K. has banned temik? Now is a busy time for me as I was gone for 5 weeks. I tried to find the information once for about a half hour but only found information that the product was banned but not the reason. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:19:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, The Insecticide that Bill is most probably referring to is Fipronil, (branded as Regent in France). Its history with beekeepers is as complicated as Gaucho, but never really caught the media headlines. Not only was there dispute regarding whether it was systemic in its mode of action but the method of application was called into question when higher than legal quantities were found after dispersal. Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:35:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:23 PM 2/11/2008, you wrote: >Bill ( or another member with a high speed hook up) can you find and post >why the U.K. has banned temik? Do a search on aldicarb (Temik contains aldicarb) and you'll find more information. It appears that is was responsible for several cases of poisoning from residue in the US and Ireland (in watermelons and cucumbers respectively), and was found at inacceptable levels in several crops. UK reduced the maximum residue level that was acceptable which required it being banned on crops that exceeded this level. UK Info on the ban: http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/food_safety.asp?id=2065 Information From: http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/briefings/pesticides_our_food.pdf : Aldicarb is a carbamate pesticide which acts as a nerve poison by disrupting nerve impulses. It is classified by the World Health Organisation (WHO) as “extremely hazardous”. It has been banned in Sweden, and the Netherlands has banned it from use in all catchment areas for drinking water supplyviii. At least 30 people were poisoned in Ireland in 1992 after eating cucumbers contaminated with aldicarbix. Aldicarb is used to kill insects and nematodes on crops. It is applied to the soil, but is taken up by the plant roots and circulated around the whole plant, so peeling does not make much difference to residue levels. Although usage of aldicarb in the UK has declined since the early 1980s, it is still widely used on potatoes, and is also used on carrots and parsnips. Since 1998 residues of aldicarb have been found in both new and main crop potatoes and carrots from the UK and overseas. Three per cent of potatoes sampled from 1998 to 2001 contained residues of aldicarbx. In a special survey in 1999xi, sampling 1000 individual potatoes, the level of residues varied between potatoes by up to twelve times. The levels in some samples exceeded the MRL, with a sample of microwaved potatoes containing such a high level that they exceeded the safety standard for toddlers and infants (the Acute Reference Dose). They had a high enough level to cause immediate health effects in young children eating them. Aldicarb is a broad spectrum insecticide, so it kills beneficial insects as well as pests. It is dangerous to game, wild birds and animals, fish and other aquatic lifexii. It has been estimated that one granule of aldicarb product may be enough to kill a small birdxiii **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:12:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian writes > My own little research showed that the Corn belt IA, NE, IN IL southern MN/Wis, MO had few if any credible CCD claims, at least no huge losses this past year or in 06/07. Certainly that region is ground zero for Gaucho coated corn. This is exactly what I have been thinking all along. If Gaucho was the culprit you would expect to see much more severe losses in some areas, like the corn belt and not in other areas, like here -- where there is very little agriculture. Further, if the problem was something as simple as that, we'd know it by now. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:13:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Young Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dimethoate is a systemic insecticide and has been available for purchase over the counter for several years and I believe it is still available at garden centers. http://www.wrpmc.ucdavis.edu/NewsAlerts/dimethoate.pdf Alternative chemistries have been shown to be effective tools, but the systemic nature of Dimethoate controls against aphid for a longer time, reducing the number of applications. The newer chemistry is double to triple the cost of Dimethoate. The producer must use multiple applications or must add Dimethoate to the mix to achieve effective control. This is neither economically or environmentally acceptable. Jim Young **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:24:12 -0800 Reply-To: k.kellison@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Kellison Subject: abandonment of imidacloprids in France MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Apologies if questions below have been previously asked and answered. France banned imidacloprid applications several years ago, correct? Does anyone know what growers there subsistuted and whether they are satisfied with the results? Thanks, Kathy Kellison **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:46:05 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: <200802120013.m1C0DDtk026525@smtp3.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >From France and the new figth agains insecticides http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jnYHkbb8uwChMDxy1rPRnEXEdUyQ -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:03:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Systemic insecticides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob writes: > I personally have never heard of an over the counter systemic before the neonicotinoid revolution. Systemic is fairly new to the growers I am in contact with. Systemics have been around at least since: 1950 Pea plants made toxic to pea aphid by systemic insecticides. 1951 Systemic insecticides found for use against aphids and spider mites on greenhouse ornamental plants. 1958 ronnel became the first systemic insecticide ingested by cattle to kill the cattle grub. 1965 Release of carbamate insecticide pirimicarb and pirimiphos ethyl, and the systemic fungicide dimethirimol for control of mildew on cucurbits 1966 Release of the systemic fungicide ethirimol for control of mildew on cereals 1972 The Environmental Protection Agency banned most uses of DDT . Scientists concentrated more on developing the organophosphorous and carbamate insecticides, which generally circumvented the problem of transmittable residues but were more toxic to man and animals during application. The Department of Agriculture also developed systemic insecticides to protect plants and animals. 1980s there were highly publicized incidents in which misapplication of aldicarb contaminated cucumbers and watermelons and led to adverse effects in people. 1990 the manufacturer of Temik (aldicarb), announced a voluntary halt on its sale for use on potatoes because of concerns about groundwater contamination. 1992 Neonicotinoids Imidacloprid was first registered for use in the U.S. in and is possibly the most widely used insecticide of the group. It has a wide range of target pests and sites, including soil, seed, structural, pets, and foliar treatments in cotton, rice, cereals, peanuts, potatoes, vegetables, pome fruits, pecans, and turf. It is a systemic with long residual activity and particularly effective against sucking insects, soil insects, whiteflies, termites, turf insects, and Colorado potato beetle. 1993 Greater than 504 insect species are known to be resistant to at least one formulation of insecticide and at least 17 species of insect species are resistant to all major classes of insecticide. 1996-2005 Farmers who used GM (Bt) insect resistant technology derived a total of nearly $9.9 billion worth of extra farm income; the majority of the farm income benefits (55%) have been earned by developing country farmers. Over this ten year period insecticide use on these two crops fell by 35.6 million kg of insecticide active ingredient which is roughly equal to the amount of pesticide applied to arable crops in the EU in one year. See "GM crops: the first ten years - global socio-economic and environmental impacts" by Graham Brookes & Peter Barfoot 2006 Bt crops (in corn and cotton) were planted on 281,500 km² (165,600 km² of Bt corn and 115900 km² of Bt cotton). This was equivalent to 11.1% and 33.6% respectively of global plantings of corn and cotton in 2006 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:55:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10802111646p77c75fc5m54d164e447984c22@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh Dear, I do not really wish to add fuel to an already burning issue - but cannot resist indicating these basic links for those interested. Position of UNAF and Fipronil in France http://www.apiservices.com/intoxications/comunique_unaf_fipronil_17_01_08.pdf Basic information on UNAF + Cruiser in France - http://www.apiservices.com/intoxications/manif_cruiser.doc What really is interesting is the active stance taken by French beekeepers and their associations to protect their colonies. They work at it, organize well and get results - they will tackle a perceived problem. The Principle of Precaution is evoked and well used as a legal procedure. Would it not be a wise action to study the manner in which these associations operate. Application of other "Best Practice procedures" is often sited as a way of getting results. Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 22:04:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Systemic insecticides Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In 1947 Martin described insecticidal chemicals that are absorbed and translocated in plants as systemic, and, although other workers have suggested terms such as chemotherapeutic and teletoxic, systemic has become the most generally accepted. Bennett defined a systemic insecticide as a substance which is absorbed and translocated to other parts of the plant, thus rendering untreated areas insecticidal. Whilst the term "systemic" is of recent origin the concept of such a method for pest and disease control dates back many centuries. The first systemic insecticides were found in plants, and the most fully explored chemical of this kind is sodium fluoroacetate which is found in the poisonous South African plant, Dichapetalum cymosum. David & Gardiner showed that sodium fluoroacetate acted as a systemic insecticide in broad bean plants but suggested that its mammalian toxicity was too high for it to be of practical importance. Selenium was the first systemic insecticide to be studied closely by entomologists following the observations that wheat growing on seleniferous soils was not attacked by aphids. >From THE BEHAVIOUR OF SYSTEMIC INSECTICIDES APPLIED TO PLANTS by S. H. BENNETT * * * Pest insect control, an essential component of crop protection and public health, has evolved over a recorded history of three millennia. Sulfur was first referred to by Homer in 1000 BC as a fumigant for pest control, and, in California, it is still used in larger amounts than any other pesticide. Nicotine in the form of tobacco extracts was reported in 1690 as the first plant-derived insecticide, followed by the pyrethrins from pyrethrum flowers and rotenone from derris roots in the early 1800s. Synthetic organics in the 1940s to the 1970s largely replaced inorganics and botanicals with the introduction of organophosphates, methylcarbamates, organochlorines, and pyrethroids. With each new chemical class, resistant strains were soon selected to limit their effectiveness. Genetically modified crops expressing Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) δ-endotoxin were introduced for pest insect control in 1995. Many of the remaining gaps in pest control capabilities were filled recently by the neonicotinoids, which combine outstanding effectiveness with relatively low toxicity to vertebrates. >From NEONICOTINOID INSECTICIDE TOXICOLOGY: Mechanisms of Selective Action by Motohiro Tomizawa and John E. Casida **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:23:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Systemic insecticides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter L. Borst wrote: > 1990 > the manufacturer of Temik (aldicarb), announced a voluntary halt on > its sale for use on potatoes because of concerns about groundwater > contamination. As of 2008 Temik is registered for use on potatoes in Florida and in several western states. It is also still registered for many other crops: http://www.bayercropscienceus.com/products_and_seeds/insecticides/temik.html Temik is a granular insecticide so it's not terribly hazardous to he applicator. The Temik label doesn't mention any hazards to bees. http://www.agrian.com/pdfs/Temik_Brand_15g_Aldicarb_Pesticide_(121603)_Label.pdf According to Bayer, the key benefits of Temik are: http://www.bayercropscienceus.com/products_and_seeds/insecticides/temik.html - Maximum return on your pest control investment. Temik has proven itself as a key to gaining higher returns on investment. - Peace-of-mind. Since its introduction in 1970, no other pesticide has been able to match the yield increase and profitability provided by Temik. On the other hand: "Reduction of food residue tolerances and the reduced drinking water advisory levels has had, and will continue to have, a profound effect of shortening the very significant commercial agricultural life of aldicarb." http://www.ehponline.org/members/1994/Suppl-11/baron-full.html Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:51:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > if the problem in [Mr. X's] bees had been a new pathogen then > radiation would have solved the [CCD] problem and it did not. And if the problem in [Mr. X's] CCD bees had been Imidacloprid then it should be a simple matter to analyze the comb/pollen/honey for Imidacloprid residues. Also a simple matter to experimentally contaminate some comb/pollen/honey with parts per billion amounts of Imidacloprid to see whether or not it stops robbing. > Do you agree Paul that if beekeepers find a yard of bees dead and when the > comb/pollen/honey is tested the level of neonicotinoids are at the level the > chemical company has said with its own research is lethal to honey bees > those beekeepers have got a claim? Perhaps, but I would think the beekeepers would need to acquire residue testing data that shows the nectar and pollen of Imidacloprid treated crops in the vicinity of the yard was contaminated with lethal or sublethal amounts of the chemical. Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:24:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Smith Subject: Re: Systemic insecticides In-Reply-To: <47B11119.41D9@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FWIW--Temik does have a label but it is very restrictive on days to harvest, especially in potatoes, such that it is not used anymore... It has such worker protection standards that it is packaged in load and lock type containers to reduce any exposure. It is also on the hit list for removal from EPA's use as an OP...Now back to the story of the neonicitinoids. Jim State of Jefferson California **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 07:38:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: honey bees & pesticides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A short excerpt from the writings of Andy Nachbaur Stress Accelerated Decline [SAD] and Bee Immune Deficiency [BAD] A few years later, now using enlightened treatments for Nosema, AFB, and EFB, my bees again were SAD. It could only be from pesticides. No antidotes were known, but I did get a government Pesticide Indemnification Payment, or PIP... Again several years later more SAD bees, still treating for Nosema, AFB, and EFB, but no more PIP's... SO I stopped going to summer pollination. {The surest way I know of gaining pesticide damage.} And since have tried to limit the time my bees are in the crop growing areas where pesticides are used. Successful keeping of bees in the ninety's will require several beekeeper skills or inputs. Two of great importance are: 1. Beekeepers ability to locate his bees in quality pasture. 2. Beekeepers ability to renew his colonies that die for whatever reason. * * * July 1990, M.T. Sanford adds: Although pesticide use in California is heavy, Mr. Nachbaur found SAD and BAD bees in areas where few pesticides are used and in some instances bees sent in for analysis showed no residues of toxic chemicals. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:15:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: bee-l is bacl online In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like the subject, bee-l is "bad"... Some truth there. I was going to write a short note on now that we are back together, could we please get back to what this list was all about in the beginning, "informed discussion". But before I did so, I decided to g back to the Bee-L guidelines and re-read them. Well, it is all there, to quote- "Furthermore, submissions must be "Informed"! BEE-L is not intended to be a substitute for beginning texts on keeping bees." "Submissions to BEE-L should not contain misinformation. Although slow to admit it, the moderators do not know it all. However, blatant misinformation is rejected without notice. Realizing there is a fine line between new, thought provoking ideas and misinformation the moderators strive for leniency in their judgment and prefer to err on the side of thought provoking ideas. Reader beware that if you read it here it ain't necessarily so!" I do enjoy Peter's posts that cite and quote chapter and verse from the literature. It is corrects a lot of the misinformation that gets posted here. Others also contribute their hopes-for-sanity corrections to the misinformation. It would be nice if we tried to keep facts facts and say "I believe" or "I guess" when there are none. I realize that our memories can be off, so there will be problems. I like the hypothesis (guesses) about certain subjects, like CCD which is still in the amorphous stage, because it does often lead to some good science. For example, the discussion on pesticide involvement with CCD has shown that it is only a tenuous connection as a root cause (IMHO) but still may be one of possibly many factors. I am happy that Aaron brought back the bee-l since it still is the most rational and informed source of beekeeping information on the internet. But I do not blame him at all if tomorrow he decided that "enough is enough" and shut it down. Personally, I believe that he will keep it going as long as we occasionally re-read the guidelines and try to adhere to them. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 08:15:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: <47B117C5.66D6@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul said: > And if the problem in [Mr. X's] CCD bees had been Imidacloprid > then it should be a simple matter to analyze the comb/pollen/honey > for Imidacloprid residues. First only limited samples of the reported huge number of CCD hives were taken. Why you ask> Because the beekeeper research funds are a percent of a percent of what big AG can spend. In fact the only CCD research funds spent to date has come from our regular sources. Very limited funds for beekeeping research. However if you turn to pg. 12 of the February Bee Culture you can read for yourself the pesticides found in those few CCD samples taken & tested. Look at the average number of pesticides in samples. What effect does a toxic soup of five different pesticides mean for bees. Both in lethal and sub lethal effects. No wonder other insect pests and other bees will not rob. . A couple of the pesticides (legal use on bees) which should have been found and the rest courtesy of chemical companies. One chemical company person suggested the average American might test similar. Maybe so! However few people seem to care. Proper funding and tests like Paul suggests could well direct us to the problem pesticide company door. I would also suggest testing bee samples from five years ago. ten years ago for comparison to see what is different. It seems (my opinion) that the bee problems started about the time the use of the *new* neonicotinoids were being released but could be only a coincidence. Or not. Large scale testing could answer these issues but like our toy testing. One tester named Bob ( as shown in CNN news ) can only do so much! I love the segment showing "Bob" pushing the to off the end of a table to test!. Without funding all testing can hardly effect big corporations. Reduced funding for the research and food testing is what certain companies want. Look at our meat processing plants. Each year less inspections are done instead of a higher number. Quietly so the general public will not wake up and for the most part unreported by our news media. I would like to know if "Bob" is still the only person testing toys from China. I personally (nine young grandchildren) am not interested in the toy makers word they will solve the problem. FOUND IN THE CCD SAMPLES; "Up to 17 pesticides /sample were found,with five the average. All told there were 43 different pesticides found ,and at least 14 were systemic.They found 17 different pesticides in pollen." Sincerely, Bob Harrison concerned beekeeper and citizen -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:16:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: The Hive and the Honeybee electronic library Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) The next addition to The Hive and the Honeybee electronic library will be the first 20 volumes of the American Bee Journal, covering the years 1861-1884. The ABJ was the first bee magazine ever published in the English language. It began as a monthly magazine, presenting theoretical and practical articles, engravings and sketches, as well as lively comments from readers, who contributed both their questions and their expertise. Its pages reported on new inventions of the day, such as the extractor, the smoker, and comb foundation. Featured contributors included L.L. Langstroth, Henry Alley, Moses Quinby, A.I. Root, Charles Dadant, C.C. Miller and other beekeeping leaders of the 19th century. Still being published today, the ABJ exists as a monument to the long history of beekeeping and the ingenuity of its practitioners. The cost of digitizing the first 20 volumes of the American Bee Journal is estimated to be about $3000. Mann Library welcomes the participation of beekeeping professionals and enthusiasts in making this important addition to the Hive and Honeybee collection possible. At present, a total of $2,150 has already been raised towards this goal. Contributing friends include: Dr. Dewey Caron (Newark, Delaware), Cornell Cooperative Extension of Tompkins County (New York), The Finger Lakes Beekeepers Club (New York), Mike Griggs (Ithaca, New York.), the Maine State Beekeepers Association (Maine), the Merrimack Valley Beekeepers Association (New Hampshire), the Mid- York Beekeepers Association (New York), the Montgomery County Beekeepers Association (Maryland), the Nevada County Beekeeper's Association (California), the Pawtuckaway Beekeepers' Association (New Hampshire), the Seacoast Beekeepers of New Hampshire (New Hampshire), the Sonoma County Beekeepers' Association (California), and the Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association (New York.), as well as Dadant & Sons, Inc. of Hamilton, Illinois--who continue to publish the American Bee Journal. The Hive & the Honey Bee http://bees.library.cornell.edu/b/bees/index.html Mike Griggs **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:25:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10802111646p77c75fc5m54d164e447984c22@mail.gmail.co m> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > From France and the new figth agains insecticides Juanse, Is there an english translation for the paper you posted? Mike **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:16:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 08:15:18 -0600, Bob Harrison wrote: >However if you turn to pg. 12 of the February Bee Culture you can read for >yourself the pesticides found in those few CCD samples taken & tested. Look >at the average number of pesticides in samples. What effect does a toxic >soup of five different pesticides mean for bees. Both in lethal and >sub lethal effects. No wonder other insect pests and other bees will not >rob. > I read it differently "they found high levels of pesticides in beeswax with the pyrethoids dominant. But the loads were amazing. Fluvalinate (with a half life in beeswax of 5 years) was found from 4640 to 53,800 oob, the two break down products from coumophos from 8-18,600 ppb. There were more but these were the biggies" The take away message for me is the beekeepers are killing their bees with mite treatments. Turning the page in the same magazine on page 14 an informal survey yielded a stunning 57% of respondents use "Regular chemical treatments" (apistan checkmite)!!!! Up here in the heartland of beekeeping the practice of buying those two products in bulk jug form and making blue shop rags is the status quo in the migratory world. We've had enforcement actions every single summer from MN Dept Ag. Nodak apperently swept up several this summer but never did a public news release. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:51:55 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote > What effect does a toxic soup of five different pesticides mean for bees. > Both in lethal and > sub lethal effects. > FOUND IN THE CCD SAMPLES; > > "Up to 17 pesticides /sample were found,with five the average. All told > there were 43 different pesticides found ,and at least 14 were > systemic.They > found 17 different pesticides in pollen." Maybe it is not the fact that the chemicals are present but the combined effect of these chemicals on the bees. As I recall (taking Bill's advice) from talks and reading, if there are a couple of chemicals present it is not just an accumulative effect. Say A is 1X lethal to bees and B is 2X lethal to bees. If you have A + B it is not 3X but can be say 6X. So if there were 5 pesticides present imagine what the cumulative effect could be if the effect is not just a matter of adding up the effects but a greater factor. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 17:22:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: <0784D536382D447ABF5140778878120C@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > FOUND IN THE CCD SAMPLES; > > "Up to 17 pesticides /sample were found,with five the average. All told > there were 43 different pesticides found ,and at least 14 were > systemic.They > found 17 different pesticides in pollen." An what is the norm? After reading all the things that are in a colony, based on Jerry's research with land mines, are we looking at the typical or the abnormal? Also, what concentrations? The nice problem we have with today's measuring systems is we can see things that never showed up when we were in the ppm world. So are we really looking at a disaster or the norm? We currently have a major Arsenic scare in a Maine town. They are slightly above government standards and everyone is frightened to drink the water. Problem is, it is the same Arsenic concentration they have been drinking for the past 200 years with no ill effects, but the threshold was changed a couple of years ago, so now what was fine and caused no problems is unsafe. Our bees may have been happily thriving with a load of unseen chemicals for years, but, now that we can see into the ppb or even lower thresholds, it is the EOTWAWKI (end of the world as we know it). But, now days, everything is. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 18:43:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: honey bees & pesticides Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter L. Borst wrote: >A short excerpt from the writings of Andy Nachbaur >Stress Accelerated Decline [SAD] and Bee Immune Deficiency [BAD] I had meant to include a few comments this AM but had to go to work! I thought the post was instructive in several ways. First, it reminds one that beekeepers and pesticide users have been at odds for many decades. You would think they would know each other a little better by now. Or perhaps, they know us, but we don't really know what they are up to. Secondly, Andy suggests that the beekeepers must take responsibility and get the hell away from the dangerous agricultural areas. I would add: if you are going to risk getting sprayed -- say, to do pollination -- you should build that into your fee. Make the growers pay for the bees they kill, instead of dreaming about government pay-offs or suing the chem companies. Third, as Malcolm Sanford points out, even bees in areas where there are NO pesticides have been suffering for many years. Before you go accusing someone else of killing your bees, you better be sure you had healthy bees in the first place. I know at least one beekeeper who got govt. payments in the 70s for dead-outs that would have died anyway, spray or no-spray. Which brings me to the final point: I think that the real problem is that we have not got healthy bees. Due to long term infestation by varroa, probably tracheal mites and/or nosema, the general bee population of US and Europe is sickly. Whether this is because of viruses, or just general parasitization, doesn't much matter. For the bee industry to be sustainable (and I mean the whole industry, not just particular individuals) there has to be an emphasis on raising healthy bees, either to sell or to use to replace one's own dead-outs. I think we have to start thinking about nursery yards whose sole purpose is to raise new healthy colonies. No doubt, isolation would be helpful: to avoid pesticides, new pests, and general reinfestation -- not to mention stock improvement. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 17:51:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: <47B21C1C.8000700@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bill & All, Problem is, it is the same Arsenic concentration they have > been drinking for the past 200 years with no ill effects, No provable ill effects! Death makes the news! sub lethal doses of arsenic is of little concern to the powers that be. I always wondered why you Maine beekeepers talked with an accent? (kidding Bill!) We have got atrazine in our water supply. The water company assures us the water is safe but I drink bottled water. Also every time I go into the water company office to pay my water bill the girls are all drinking bottled water. A friend of mine which works in the office tells me every time they see me pull up they all hide their bottled water. My friend at times calls me and tells me things are getting boring at the water office why not come in for a visit. I tell the water dept. girls: " Your water is so bad you have to drink bottled water?" > Our bees may have been happily thriving with a load of unseen chemicals > for years, Thriving? I would never say* happily thriving* . many large hive die offs have been at times of introductions of new pesticides. Twenty years ago Last year is the infamous anniversary of Penn cap M. Penn cap M. was unlike any pesticide beekeepers( certainly myself) had ever seen before . tens of thousands of hives were lost. Both national organizations fought an all out war to ban its use. I donated a substantial amount to the cause but Penn cap M. is still around. In my opinion beekeepers will end up having to live with the new neonicotinoids ( as we do now with penncap M.)by doing as Peter B. says by moving away from treated crops. Also trying to prove losses through testing to get reimbursed and get chemical companies to ban use of neonicotinoids on certain crops bees visit. Beekeepers are smarter now ( what's left at least) than in the days of the old indemnity program. A program partly pushed through with the chemical company help so the U.S. tax payers would pay for beekeeper losses instead of the chemical companies and the applicators. ( and now you know the rest of the story). A few of us saw what was happening but figured out getting the chemical companies to pay for losses would be a hard row to hoe and getting pesticide dead out claims faster would be a better way to go. I actually approached the chemical industry about using their clout to get reimbursement for the CCD dead outs but only minor interest right now. Maybe next year. The big difference between now and back then is that the U.S. beekeepers have got the public on their side. juries are in the habit of taking large sums of money from big corporations and giving to the little guy. Maybe John Edwards would help beekeepers. Big corps have lost a fortune in trials he has done! Last but not least we have got better ways to prove our case through new technology. Under the old indemnity program we called up the inspector , he came out and simply looked at a hive with a bunch of dead bees out front , the beekeeper was paid and life went on. The USDA did not even try to figure out the pesticide or the applicator which caused the problem. Things are very different today. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 19:07:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?GB2312?Q?Zachary_Huang?= Subject: Anyone still have bees to be moved to CA? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I know this might be way too late (almonds are to bloom around Feb 20th)....but if someone has bees still in FL/GA/AL (any place warm enough to take some brood out, hatch in the incubators and paint bees to be put back) and ready to be moved to the almonds in CA....please let me know. Just learned that I have some money to study the effect of migration on honey bee physiology. Thanks, Zachary Huang Associate Professor Michigan State University **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:08:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Anyone still have bees to be moved to CA? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="GB2312"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think you are too late for almonds. You could go to California and take a sample of some Missouri bees and I could maybe take a sample here and send to you last of March. Possibly the California beekeeper/broker might mark your bees. Email me direct if interested and I will see if I can help. I believe all bees coming from the areas you listed have been in California for awhile already. Dave Mendez sends bees to Blueberries from Florida and he might help your study but he does not ship till later. I am very interested in your study and have contact information for those I have talked about. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:21:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Background Facts: Bee Sting Therapy and MS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Background Facts: Bee Sting Therapy and MS Discovery Health http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/02/background-facts-bee-sting-therapy-and.html For centuries, honey, bee pollen, and bee venom have been used to treat a number of ailments that vary between chronic pain to skin conditions. Apitherapy, or the medical use of honeybee products that range from royal jelly to bee venom, was used by the ancient Egyptians as a homeopathic remedy for arthritis. Today, bee venom therapy, or bee sting therapy, has captured the attention of medical science as a potential homeopathic remedy for multiple sclerosis (MS) symptoms... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:21:12 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Molokai Meli LLC Subject: Nursery Yards Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed For the bee industry to be sustainable (and I mean the whole industry, not just particular individuals) there has to be an emphasis on raising healthy bees, either to sell or to use to replace one's own dead-outs. I think we have to start thinking about nursery yards whose sole purpose is to raise new healthy colonies. No doubt, isolation would be helpful: to avoid pesticides, new pests, and general reinfestation -- not to mention stock improvement. pb Aloha Peter, and all: I agree with this idea and am wondering if anyone has suggestions as to how to begin. We are on an isolated island with our apiary being the only commercial honey/beekeeping operation. I've been thinking this same thing. We may have an opportune location to raise a healthy stock to begin with that could at least start out varroa free. We've raised a few of our own queens just for our own replacement, but currently our whole stock is from feral hives. They produce, but they're pretty hot by US mainland standards. I'm thinking getting a few good breeder queens would be a great start........ Molokai Meli Molokai, Hawaii **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:22:11 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Nursery Yards In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I would go by importing droone semen and doing AI as the only way to get sure you are not introducing varroa or other parasites with the stock -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:20:51 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Nursery Yards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I agree with this idea and am wondering if anyone has suggestions as to how to begin. Kirk Webster of Vermont has a very sustainable operation. [He's described his operation in ABJ.] Essentially there is an isolated mating yard where he raises nucs using virgins from is his best queens. The isolation gives him good control over the drones. The forage in this isolated spot is reportedly much, much less than ideal so there is great selection based bee foraging ability. After heavy losses, he started out with Russion stock and varroa tolerance/resistance is a key characteristic in his selection process. He does not use any chems. Nucs and queens that do well are used to replenish any losses in his honey yards and/or are sold to other beekeepers. Very few of us have the benefit of being isolated but I believe most of us should be raising our own queens and selecting from the best. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:51:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: honey bees & pesticides In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Pete said: I think we have to start thinking about nursery yards whose sole purpose is to raise new healthy colonies. I'm in total agreement, Pete. Look at the graph of breeding for nosema resistance in Kirsten Traynor's article in this month's ABJ. We have the ability to breed for healthier bees! Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:36:03 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: honey bees & pesticides In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10802131151i13de9407m5610aeb2b162157b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Apart from isolation, what else would you ask those yards to have? Good pasture: early, summer or autum? Hot, Mild or Cold winter? close home or away (demand from nursery)? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:58:23 -0500 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I just wanted to pause long enough to add my thoughts to those of others on the importance of this list and my appreciation of the largely unknown job Aaron does to maintain the facility. Now, Aaron and I are physical neighbors, not quite next door to each other, but close. That means we have squabbled in the past and are likely to do so in the future. We both have faults, but mine almost surely are of more significance than Aaron's. In particular, I have a real tendency to not tolerate the slightest personal attack, while Aaron bends in the wind. Sure, there are other lists out there and the number of active members of some put us to shame (if that is an important ingredient). But commentary and questions on those lists consist largely of same old, same old...year in and year out. Commentary and questions on this list tend to be much more challenging. For the 48 hours or so that it appeared that this list was 'gone', I realized there is no real replacement and I am grateful that Aaron reconsidered. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:47:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: <001701c86dc1$7d5c3610$f431643b@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit queenbee wrote: > > Maybe it is not the fact that the chemicals are present but the > combined effect of these chemicals on the bees. As I recall (taking > Bill's advice) from talks and reading, if there are a couple of > chemicals present it is not just an accumulative effect Not always. They can also counter each other. I am not an advocate for any chemicals in a hive, but you cannot help getting them in there. Some may be beneficial and some may be harmful. Some may act together for good or bad. I hope everyone realizes that many plants brew their own pesticides and we eat them readily with no ill effects. If the same "pesticides" had to be registered, they would probably not make it. Fortunately God got there before the government. Appreciate the post that did ID the "pesticides" that had the highest concentrations and most prevalent to be those introduced by the beekeeper. Personally, and I have said this often, most of the pesticide problem in our colonies are of our own doing. Add that many do not rotate comb and you have the perfect storm to breed bad bees. Forget worrying about nursery yards or the like. Just get back to basic beekeeping which can be found in any beginning beekeeping book. Do not treat with home-brew miticides.There are plenty of excellent.but time consuming and costly treatments (Formic is one) that leave little residue and do the job well. Rotate comb. Select good queens. Have proper stores. But why am I prattling on, you all have read the books. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:58:57 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Uruguay: Fipronil kills 2700 beehives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://biodiversidadla.org/content/view/full/38725 In spanish -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:53:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Wintering mite behaviour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone have any information on the winter behaviour and habbits of the vorroa mite in a broodless wintering hive? Links or comments would be appreciated. Are they quite dosile, just hanging on, or do they move about frequently on the bee and between others, or do they dig right into the bee hard to reach and groom off and hard to stir? Thanks **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:49:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Nursery Yards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Molokai, Are you able to import queens from the maimland? John Horton **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:51:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:47:55 -0500, Bill Truesdell wrote: >Appreciate the post that did ID the "pesticides" that had the highest >concentrations and most prevalent to be those introduced by the >beekeeper. Personally, and I have said this often, most of the pesticide >problem in our colonies are of our own doing. Thank you Bill, another factor to consider is this "self induced contamination" can come around to bite a beekeeper a second time if they're buying queens from a producer who has the same problems in his/her brood comb. it can be REALY interesting to ask queen producers about their comb contamination levels and see if they have seen the literature concerning the effects on queen and drone fertility etc. based on my own observations about how many queen producers flunked my telephone questionaire on comb contamination and referring to that survey in Bee Culture on beekeeper miticide use, and what I see going on in the commercial operations here in the heartland; let me toss out the idea that maybe half of all U.S. beekeepers have infertile queens on moderate to heavily contaminated brood comb. In my view this is a much more plausible explanation of what's "killing the bees" then the idea that some huge percentage of beekeepers or hives are being exposed routinely to pesticides that are the root cause behind the downward trend in bee losses. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 05:27:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Honey Heals Canadian Horse's Wounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Honey Heals Canadian Horse's Wounds Honey Helps Heal Poet's Wounds By Eoin Callan, The Independent (Canada), 2/14/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/02/honey-used-to-treat-canadian-horses.html ...The sticky nectar was suggested as an ointment in a losing battle to heal an open wound on the right rear leg of Poet, a chestnut gelding who lost a fight with a fence..."The improvement was amazing. It has healed really well. The cut has closed up," she says... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:46:17 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Wintering mite behaviour In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ian I have the same questions, for the ones I do not have the answer. However past winter was very hard over here and I lost some 40% of my hives. The ones that survive stayed broodless for a couple of month (maybe a bit less) and in spring they have very few mites (less than 1%). I treat in autum and spring with amitraz. Usually winter is not that hard over here, and not all hive become broodless, and usually I start spring with a bigger mite load (>5%). So I am inclined to conclude that mites in a broodless hive subject to a hard winter get life tuffer and there survival rate is diminished. At the same time I have to consider that I have Nceranae in my hives, and lots of adult bees disapeared during winter, so a second conclution for the low mite count could be that they stay on the adult honeybees, and as they died out of the hive during winter, they take part of the mites out. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:37:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: Wintering mite behaviour/Amitraz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Juanse Barros J. wrote: in spring they have very few mites (less than 1%). I treat in autum and spring with amitraz. This substance is banned in Canada for use with bees, perhaps in the US also and elsewhere so how is it that Chile gets to use this when it contaminates the hive Walter Ontario **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:38:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > let me > toss out the idea that maybe half of all U.S. beekeepers have infertile queens on moderate to > heavily contaminated brood comb. > > Nothing new here either (except the "half" which seems excessive), since this was found with queens exposed to cumaphos. I am sure that Bob can talk about this better than I since I believe he brought it up long ago. So if combs were not rotated and cumaphos was used, you do have a problem. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:55:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Wintering mite behaviour/Amitraz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:37:50 EST, Walter Zimmermann wrote: >This substance is banned in Canada for use with bees, perhaps in the US also >and elsewhere >so how is it that Chile gets to use this when it contaminates the hive >Walter from a Randy Oliver article http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38 "The downside of amitraz is that it is somewhat more toxic to bees than fluvalinate, and shuts down the queen’s egglaying during treatment (Henderson 1998; pers comms). This is not surprising, since Bloomquist (1996) states, “Amidines cause an overstimulation of octopaminergic synapses in insects, resulting in tremors, convulsions, and continuous flight behavior in adult insects. Moreover, these compounds have the ability to cause a true anorexia in insects and also suppress reproduction.” The upside to amitraz is that it degrades quickly in honey and beeswax (Fries, et al 1998), and therefore leaves virtually no residues (although one of its metabolites, DMF, is quite stable, and is a common contaminant of European honey (Shroeder, et al 2004)). Vesely, et al (2004) analyzed beeswax in the Czech Republic for amitraz and its degradation products. They concluded “these quantities do not present amitraz as hygienic risk for bees and for humans even after 20 years of its systematic application.” http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38 from a comb contamination standpoint Amitraz is a better alternative the fluvalinate and coumapohos **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:15:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: Wintering mite behaviour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am wondering, how would a fellow go about and observe the behavour and habbits of wintering mites in a colony? It would have to be done without any disturbance to the hive, otherwise the behaviour of the bees along with the mites would change, Perhaps an indoor wintered obsevation hive? But then that still willnot give you a complete look at the wintering cluster, just a piece of it. Perhaps observing a piece or side of a wintering cluster is all that would be needed? Anyhow, all comments or suggestions welcome! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:37:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: <47B44469.50308@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Perhaps?far, far higher than 50% of bees are exposed to contaminated?wax.? I heard?recently?that some analysis work is?being done on foundation with results showing fluvalinate, coumaphos and lots of other toxics remain in the processed foundation.??Would appear to me from that remark that a lot of the contaminated?comb being rotated?is finding its way to processors and then back to the beekeeper.? I am going to?minimize my use of commercial foundation and?quit eating?cutcomb made with?commercial?foundation?after hearing this.?? ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:58:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Wintering mite behaviour/Amitraz In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > so how is it that Chile gets to use this [Amitraz] when it contaminates the hive All the research that I've seen found that Amitraz degrades rapidly, and does not cause appreciable contamination. See http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38 Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:41:02 -0500 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In regard to the possible presence of fluvalinate or coumaphous in comb honey wax, let's pause, take a deep breath, and understand what is going on here. First, when it comes to Apistan and CheckMite, both fluvalinate and coumaphous were deliberately formulated to be hydrophobic. In other words, not likely to be absorbed into a liquid (think...honey). As I understand the chemistry, when items are hydrophobic they are highly likely to be readily absorbed into solids (think...beeswax). Honey has been tested hundreds of time for trace elements of fluvalinate and coumaphous and, as I understand it, amounts found (if any) were infinitesimal. Even by FDA standards. Drop in a swimming pool kind of levels. When coumaphous first came on the market (as CheckMite) the label said (approximately) do not produce comb honey on a hive that had been treated with coumaphous. If you know of Ross Rounds (as do most beekeepers in the world), you can understand that I got slightly nervous. With some difficulty, I managed to find the person at the FDA who was responsible for the label wording and timidly asked 'where did this restriction come from'? She told me that the restriction was requested by Bayer, but they had no evidence to back it up. The FDA said they would allow it, but only if Bayer agreed to do studies in the first year to either support the restriction or have it dropped. Thankfully, the studies showed no evidence of coumaphous in comb honey (wax or liquid) and the restriction was dropped in the second-year label. Think about it, except for the foundation, all of the beeswax in comb honey comes directly from the bees' bodies. So unless some beekeeper uses coumaphous or fluvalinate *while comb honey supers are on the hive*, that portion of the beeswax will not contain the chemicals. How about the foundation? That really worried me and I spent a reasonable amount of money having comb honey foundation tested for the presense of coumaphous or fluvalinate. No measurable amounts were ever found. I understand the manufacturers of comb honey foundation have also done such testing, with the same result. Why aren't the chemicals being found when they are present in 'large' concentration in wax from brood combs? Dunno, I could speculate but I won't except to say that comb honey foundation can only be made from wax that largely comes from cappings...(which come directly from bees' bodies). Finally, it is real interesting to me that some on this list are really getting excited about the levels of the chemicals in brood comb. These levels have been widely known for about 10 years. They were not kept a secret, but neither was their presense the stuff of headlines. You know...the Alvar effect. I am coming up on my fourth year without using any artificial pesticides (I use acids, sugar and drone brood control), as are many of you. No, I would not buy comb honey from the gunslingers out there. But the comb honey you and your neighbors produce is one of the most wonderful foods the world has ever known. Let's keep it that way. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:43:04 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Nursery Yards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i'd rather have bees that have been exposed to varroa and "other parasites"....otherwise in breeding them, you have no way to select for those that can handle such challenges. imho, better to take some losses up front at the beginning of a breeding program rather than at the tail end when there are many more colonies at stake. deknow -- Juanse Barros wrote: I would go by importing droone semen and doing AI as the only way to get sure you are not introducing varroa or other parasites with the stock **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:01:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:37:28 -0500, Jerry Wallace wrote: I am going to?minimize my use of commercial foundation and?quit eating?cutcomb made with? commercial?foundation?after hearing this.? I'd encourage you to call Dadant's in Hamilton Ill I spoke with the gentleman there who handles foundation. While he had no hard data to share he did say they ran some known contaminated wax through their rendering and filtering system and claimed that the residues dropped to EPA ppm standards. I questioned him about cut comb since we produce 6-8000 pieces each year. He indicated they are very concious of these concerns and purposely segregate wax from known clean beekeepers to use exclusively in cut comb foundation. I came away with a favorable opinion of his answers and over all attitude. I suggested they should be advertising this information. He said they get few if any calls or concerns. I was surprised to hear that fluvalinate and coumaphous would degrade in a rendering operation. Can anyone comment on that? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:19:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All, Brian I am not going to argue but I will post what I have learned from many sources and my own experiments. Take it for what it is! > it can be REALY interesting to ask queen producers about their comb > contamination levels and see > if they have seen the literature concerning the effects on queen and drone > fertility etc. I agree there are documented problems in both areas! However we simply know about all there is too know about comb contamination from fluvalinate, amatraz and coumaphos. These three mitacides have been in use all over the world for decades. All roads to try and pin the 2006/2007 dieoffs to the above *three* chemicals have came to a dead end. I know as I have seen the research both USDA-ARS and more importantly private large commercial testing. The numbers for the above which BC posted and seemed to shock all are in the range which are found in most comb on which those mitacides have been legally used. I have attended many a USDA-ARS presentation and have watched the slide show many times. The two areas Brian talks about have been the areas testing has been shown (at least in hypothesis) linked to those mitacides. I was told by a USDA-ARS person he suspected comb contamination was causing a small amount of larva kill. I replied that to find out about about a hives problems you look through the hive trash. He looked dumbfounded. I asked if he had ever went to the hive right before daylight and looked at the landing board with a flashlight. You will find the dead plus varroa. All sitting waiting to be flown and dropped about 20 feet out. Half hour after the bees start flying is too late! The USDA-ARS researcher said he was glad he spoke with me and had learned a valuable piece of research information. The above piece of information has helped me in my research. In the circles I travel in we do real bee research by sticking our heads in hives and use microscopes when needed but the hive is the place the problem is not the lab. I have a close friend which lives in the deep south which is older than me and claims he has looked in a bee hive almost every day of his life. Armchair beekeeping produces poor results. I don't believe I have ever went to a bee yard and not found at least a small problem needing attention. I can safely say right now that there were more than enough hives to pollinate almonds this year. Many had to place hives held back for less tham $130 to get placed. The growers won out over the beekeepers sitting back hoping to make big bucks if a shortage. I have only spoke with three brokers but it seems most hives are grading fine. Sooo! If the hypothesis of Brian about those three chemicals were the case then we would be looking at a comb issue. Also I might point out to the CCD fan club there were plenty of bees in almonds last year. Many commercial beekeepers are not planning to stop what they are doing until there own research shows a problem. The effects on queens ( coumaphos) is documented but has been controlled by not treating hives when rearing queens. I know of not a single large beekeeper or queen producer which has used coumaphos in years. However most still have comb from the days they did. > is a much more plausible explanation of what's "killing the bees" then > the idea > that some huge percentage of beekeepers or hives are being exposed > routinely to pesticides that > are the root cause behind the downward trend in bee losses. " killing the bees". I keep hearing of problems from beekeepers but when I try to find the beekeeper the road in most cases leads to a rumor. I am not saying some outfits are not losing hives as I have found around 5=10 commercial outfits with problems but they represent a very small percentage of industry hives. We have had another hard winter in our area and many hobby beekeepers have found their hives dead with the bees heads in cells. All which have called and suspect CCD. They really are not excited when I explain their bees starved to death or went into winter with too small a cluster. I might add that from my perspective only beekeepers which do pollination have been concerned about pesticide problems through the years. We are the beekeepers which deal with the pesticide issues . However perhaps some of the CCD issues might be related to pesticides or the new neonicotinoids but in my opinion most was related to other issues of which none in my opinion are new. Also in the Feb. Bee Culture is an excellent article "The Year the bees Died" (pg.28). I have had serious bee problems every time we go through a drought cycle. Usually the first year we get a bumper honey crop if the drought comes after a rainy April and we have enough sub soil moisture. Then the second year the effects can be devastating for beekeepers. The bees will simply not brood up for winter despite pollen patties and feed. You can't fool the bees. Every bee book from the days of hard winters say you need at least four brood cycles of winter bees. I have taken bees through many Midwest droughts. 78-79 , 85-86 , 2005-2006. to name several. I have records still for these three and in ALL case in the second year of drought the bees only raised two cycles of winter bees and went into winter with small clusters. My advice for migratory beekeepers ( from experience) is to load the bees up in the second year of drought and winter south! The above comes from almost fifty years of keeping bees. There have been years when hardly a day goes by in *season* I have not looked in a bee hive. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:40:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Nursery Yards In-Reply-To: <20080213.112051.5.0@webmail07.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar wrote: "Very few of us have the benefit of being isolated but I believe most of us should be raising our own queens and selecting from the best." I couldn't agree more. And I'm not against buying good commercially-produced queens to bring in fresh genetics and a higher degree of selection. My preference of home-raised queens stems from the ideals of giving my newly mated queens plenty of time to mature and gives me the opportunity to fully evaluate. Since I'm not horribly rushed with a quick turn-over, I leave my queens in the nucs (six-frame nucs boxes) rather than cage them in a queen bank. And I also have the benefit of raising local queens that compliment and compensate my management styles and incompetencies. I think the benefits outweigh the mystique. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:49:22 -0500 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Comb Honey Foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Brian said: I was surprised to hear that fluvalinate and coumaphous would degrade in a rendering operation. Can anyone comment on that?" I think there is more than just 'ordinary' rendering going on. Just what are classified as trade secrets, but removal of chemicals seems to be a pleasing side effect. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 13:06:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > In regard to the possible presence of fluvalinate or coumaphous in comb > honey wax, let's pause, take a deep breath, and understand what is going on > here. Good post. I think you are replying to the "never eat wax again" comment. I have never seen a problem with wax from any of the foundation suppliers. The concern is with those who do not rotate foundation and keep it in their colonies forever along with continued application of cumaphos. Coumaphos has been implicated with reduced queen vitality, so it seems to make sense to get rid of comb from colonies that were treated with it.It is an organophosphate and they are know for their effect on reproduction. One standard observation from most who rotate comb is how healthy there bees become after new foundation is introduced. I think you get rid of a variety of ills, not just pesticide residue. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:48:49 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Molokai Meli LLC Subject: Re: Nursery Yards In-Reply-To: <002101c86eb4$5e8f5700$2ce84cd8@HortonFamily> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No, we're not, but I do have a possible source here on another island. On Feb 13, 2008, at 4:49 PM, John & Christy Horton wrote: > Molokai, > Are you able to import queens from the maimland? > > John Horton > > **************************************************** > * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * > * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * > **************************************************** > **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:57:27 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Wintering mite behaviour/Amitraz In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10802140758h48c679a7re88a6e8ca58ea2e9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sorry Walter Z, but I do not know how to respond to you. All I know is that it is legal to use amitraz here in Chile, that is a lab formulated solution (www.apilab.com.ar) the one I use, and that it work great. I have change to a new formic solution now, but keep on using amitraz for the nucs when the queen have just mated. I give them 21 days after the queen cell/cup have been put in the mayting nucs before cheking. If the queen is laying i put amitraz, if not i dismatle the nuc. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:12:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: Wintering mite behaviour/Amitraz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to those involved in the replies , I read the material so then Juanse Barros J. writes: If the queen is laying i put amitraz, if not i dismatle the nuc. from Randy Olivers suggested reading: "The downside of amitraz is that it is somewhat more toxic to bees than =20 fluvalinate, and shuts=20 down the queen=E2=80=99s egglaying during treatment (Henderson 1998; pers c= omms). =20 This is not=20 surprising, since Bloomquist (1996) states, =E2=80=9CAmidines cause an=20 overstimulation of octopaminergic=20 synapses in insects, resulting in tremors, convulsions, and continuous=20 flight behavior in adult=20 insects. Moreover, these compounds have the ability to cause a true anorexi= a=20 in insects and also=20 suppress reproduction.=E2=80=9D My question then is: How good are these queens?=20 or should we not give it much thought? =20 Walter =20 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:56:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: William Sharp Subject: skim milk for early spring feed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, I have read that in africa they use fresh skim milk as a pollen substitute. Is this a viable way to feed bees, and if so would you add anything to it to attract bees etc. thanks, Bill Sharp Shenandoah Valley, Virginia **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:19:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Wintering mite behaviour In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Ian Steppler wrote: > I am wondering, how would a fellow go about and > observe the behavour and > habbits of wintering mites in a colony?... Hello Ian! I hope this helps: ===start=== "Preferential distribution of the parasitic mite, Varroa jacobsoni Oud. on overwintering honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) workers and changes in the level of parasitism" http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=23647 Abstract “The distribution of Varroa jacobsoni on clustered, overwintering workers of Apis mellifera was investigated. The majority of mites were found between the 3rd and 4th ventro-lateral tergites of the abdomen with a significant preference for the left side of the host. This position would enable the mites to place their mouthparts in close proximity to the central portion of the bees' ventriculus. This may allow the mites access to nutrients at higher concentrations than would occur elsewhere in the haemolymph. At the start of winter, most infested bees carried only a single mite but towards the end increasing numbers of bees carried 2 or more mites. There was also an increase in the mite : bee ratio and more mobile mites (i.e. those moving about on the bees) were recorded. These results suggest that the mites suffer a lower overwinter mortality than the bees and are capable of transferring to a new host either before the original host dies or before it falls to the floor of the hive. This will have consequences for the transfer of diseases by Varroa within the hive.” ===end=== I have video of what appears to be a grooming sequence, showing the bee getting the attention lifting the left side of the 3rd. tergite just as a guard bee approaches that area during the event. Of course, it could simply be a coincidence, perhaps the bee exposing its vital parts during aggressive inspection behavior from a guard bee. ;) Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles FeralBeeProject.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 19:31:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 14/02/2008 12:55:27 GMT Standard Time, amesfarm@HOTMAIL.COM writes: ; let me toss out the idea that maybe half of all U.S. beekeepers have infertile queens on moderate to heavily contaminated brood comb. Queens are reared in their own, freshly drawn, cells. Granted there may be a degree of recycling of wax within the hive, but even so, the new queens are likely to have cradles much less contaminated than their plebeian sisters. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 21:44:53 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Wintering mite behaviour/Amitraz In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Which queens? . I haven=B4t observe "the shut down of queen=B4s egglaying d= uring treatment". --=20 Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 23:00:11 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Bob H says: "Every bee book from the days of hard winters say you need at least four brood cycles of winter bees. I have taken bees through many Midwest droughts. 78-79 , 85-86 , 2005-2006. to name several. I have records still for these three and in ALL case in the second year of drought the bees only raised two cycles of winter bees and went into winter with small clusters." We are entering one of those dry cycles that we relate to La Ni=F1a. I haven't come to one of those books from the days of hard winters where it is explain this four brood cycles of winter bees, could you please give mor= e details? you mean 21 x 4 days? starting the count on which date? thanks --=20 Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 23:32:22 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Amitraz / Amivar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This is the strip I use http://www.apilab.com/english/amivar.htm -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 21:30:47 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: skim milk for early spring feed In-Reply-To: <896851.67787.qm@web53104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline William Sharp ask: Hi all, I have read that in africa they use fresh skim milk as a pollen substitute. Is this a viable way to feed bees, and if so would you add anything to it to attract bees etc. ABJ reprint Vol99 No.4 April 1959 Pollen Substitutes - Still a Controversy? "...basic pollen substitute (soybean flour, dried brewers yeast, dry skim milk ....) "For practical purposes a pollen substitute consisting of three parts soybean flour (expeller processed or solvent extracted and heated afterward= s wit fat content 5-7% ), one part dried brewers=B4yeast (bitter for animal feeding), and one part of dried skim milk could be recommended. An addition of 10% dried egg yolk and 10% finely ground commercial casein will improve the food value of the mixture." " If one lives on the farm, with plenty of fresh skim milk available, one may use the latter instead of water in opreparing sugar solution." --=20 Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:23:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: skim milk for early spring feed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Supplemental feeding is a perennial topic on BEE-L. The topic is = covered extensively on Allen Dick's web page at = http://honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/default.htm There was also a lot of discussion on the topic at the recent joint = meeting in Sacramento, and mention was made of the good, the bad, and = the ugly bee feed formulas out there. Ingredients ranged from soy, to = dried milk, to even fish meal, representing again, the good, the bad and = the ugly. I have not checked my notes, but my recollection is that milk = protein was on the bad to ugly end of the scale. There was a very good comparison of different bee diets presented by the = Tucson Bee Lab, which has a vested interest in one particular diet, but = again as I posted a few weeks ago, the favorable data presented for the = Tucson Bee Diet was claimed to be unbiased and had the data been = unfavorable, the unfavorable data would also have been presented. There = was even data presented about a home-grown diet formulated by the very = same Mr. X who was mentioned the other day on BEE-L., one of the = ingredients being eggs. The data pertaining to the X-Diet was not very = favorable, yet more than a few beekeepers are experimenting with the = X-Diet based on, "If it's good for X it's good for me!" My point is there are many home recipes out there, many more than = commercially available recipes. But when there are so many good (and = convenient!) commercial formulations out there (BeePro, Global Patties, = MegaBee, FeedBee to mention a few, endorsing or recommending none) the = wisdom of using home grown recipes is questionable. Granted, the = home-grown recipes might cost less, but it's likely to be a case of = penny wise and pound foolish. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************