From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:10:11 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3FF849090 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y78017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0804B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 270028 Lines: 6381 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 22:13:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > Bees not taking syrup and/or medication is one of the symptoms listed by > the > Spanish for N. ceranae. The Spanish researchers are way ahead of U.S. research on n. ceranae. Their disappearing bee research started in 2001. We have approached those researchers before. Why? Because Spain has more bee hives ( 2.7 million hives) and their country is about the size of California. Far higher concentration of hives than California almonds. Their researchers are among the best in the world. Spain is the ideal place to look at a similar situation as California almonds but California almonds is only crowed for a short period of time when Spain is crowded year around! Spain has had a disappearing bee problem since 2001. Has eliminated all but nosema ceranae as the problem. Has been able to actually document a hive losing adult bees from nosema ceranae. In the study the bees where flying out up to 700 meters to die. Those bees were found and tested and had severe nosema ceranae and died from starvation while the hive showed no problems other than missing bees. At the end of the study the hive had a queen and 133 bees. > I've heard of some beekeepers drenching bees (which I > believe is off label). A cup of solution four times at a weeks interval is the dose. The reason for drenching is sound. The bees will not take syrup and even die in the feeder trying to feed but when drenched they lick each other off and get some medication. drenching is simply a last ditch effort to get nosema ceranae under control. When ever I am feeding syrup with fumidil and I see the nosema ceranae signs of bees dead in the feeder and not taking feed I simply cut the syrup pump valve back and drench the bees. Eric Mussen recommends drenching as a last ditch attempt to save a colony ( 2008 MSBA meeting). My question - if the bees are so far gone that they > refuse feed, will drenching help? >From my experience I would say yes maybe twenty five percent of the time. Most are too far gone when they stop taking feed. Concerning nosema ceranae I believe Spain is way ahead of the USDA-ARS but then again why would they not be as they have got a seven year head start! If I were the USDA-ARS I would ask for their research and then take further. Why waste years doing the early research? bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:00:54 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "One beekeeper reports a decent spore kill with a 8 hour treatment." That is the basic reason why I have been adding acetic acid to the syrup. It is not for acidifying the food it is for fuming in the hive for killing nosema spores. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 16:24:25 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Kiling nosema spores (was acetic acid fumigation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote > 120 degree F. temp for 24 hours will kill the nosema spores also ( > USDA-ARS). One beekeeper reports a decent > spore kill with a 8 hour treatment. He said he does not understand the > reason behind needing 24 hours. He said once the comb has reached the 120 > F. > the spores are dead. I imagine that there is a heating up factor here. Is it that the nosema spores are killed once the temperature reaches 120F (49C) or is there a time needed at this temperature? If so, I would imagine there would be an extrapolation for higher temperatures. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 03:43:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Short Fuse! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/04/2008 01:30:48 GMT Standard Time, wildbranch2007@YAHOO.COM writes: Any way the hives were fine until they started a flow from this plant, and were nasty until they used up all the honey in the hive. I googled privot and it doesn't give when it bloomes? Privet has strongly scented small white flowers; however it also has extra-floral nectaries that are worked by the bees. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:37:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > As long as the stores are for the bees I see no problem. I plan to stack > the > deeps five high an place 150 mm of glacial acetic acid 60-80% on top. Should that not be 150ml per box? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 00:08:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >One beekeeper reports a decent > spore kill with a 8 hour treatment. He said he does not understand the > reason behind needing 24 hours. He said once the comb has reached the 120 > F. > the spores are dead. > What do the list say about his hypothesis? > Good question, since little work has been done on the treatment of N ceranae spores (see my article Nosema Twins 5). I recently received a note that ceranae spores may lose viability more quickly than N apis. A trial is planned. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:33:13 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Short Fuse! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I googled privot and it doesn't give when it bloomes? but it was just before goldenrod in my area. Thank you, Mike. Have not heard this about privet. Interesting though. Around here, privet is one of the last bloomers in the 'spring flow.' It's usually done by mid-July which would put it several weeks ahead of goldenrod. There might be possibly another bloomer that coincides with goldenrod. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 04:24:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Foraging Bees Use Return Flight to Begin Honey Production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Foraging Bees Use Return Flight to Begin Honey Production Honeybees Get to Work in Flight, Study Says By Henry Fountain, The New York Times, 4/8/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/04/foraging-bees-use-return-flight-to.html Honey making is much like maple sugaring. The flower nectar collected by honeybees is similar to maple sap - a diluted sugar solution that becomes concentrated through the evaporation of most of the water. With bees, most of the evaporation occurs in the hive. But a study from South Africa shows that in certain cases concentrating the nectar begins as early as the flight home from the flower... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:11:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Mike_Bassett?= Subject: Re: Short Fuse! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>>I googled privot and it doesn't give when it bloomes? but it was just before goldenrod in my area. > once everyone corrected my spelling I was able to find the reference in the archive. never could spell very well. Item #34430 (9 Feb 2001 10:02) - Re: Privet Honey(s)? and I was close it was someone from new zealand, mike bassett new york **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 09:25:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: Short Fuse! In-Reply-To: <20080408.033313.1061.0@webmail09.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There is a lot of privet in this area and the bees usually produce?a surplus from privet bloom.? I sat in a presentation where a researcher indicated privet honey as having?or causing ill?effects on bees.? I'm guessing that?was in reference to?pure privet honey as I've never observed any particular effect on my hives as far as irratibility or ill effects. Jerry **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 11:18:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ - HONEY CONTEST BEGINS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 ________________________________ From: Kim Flottum [mailto:Kim@BeeCulture.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:26 AM To: Aaron Morris Subject: CATCH THE BUZZ - HONEY CONTEST BEGINS This ezine is also available online at http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2008.04.08.09.26.archive.html CATCH THE BUZZ The Great Honey Hunt Begins The Hoople Group, Zuula Consulting and The American Honey Producers present the rules for the biggest gathering of honey varietals in U.S. History How it all began...=20 Working with our friends at Zuula Consulting, The Hoople Group contacted Mark Brady, president of the American Honey Producers Association (AHPA). Together we discussed our love for honey and our desire to help give great American honey the attention it finally deserves.=20 Together, we decided the best place to start: A contest to celebrate our country's dedicated beekeepers by searching for the tastiest honey in the nation.=20 How does it work?=20 The Great American Honey Hunt will award prizes for small, medium and large producers and everyone making delicious, American-made honey is encouraged to enter.=20 Send us a 1lb. sample of your best honey and include the following details:=20 1. Your name and contact information.=20 2. The honey's floral source and varietal.=20 3. The number of hives you maintain.=20 4. Your annual honey production.=20 Also, we'd love to get to know you and your honey better, so please share a little about who you are. Sample questions to answer:=20 1. How did you become interested in honey?=20 2. How long have you been producing honey?=20 3. What's the funniest/scariest/most unbelievable experience you've had while making honey?=20 4. How do you feel about your bees?=20 5. Do you have any special or surprising honey recipes to share?=20 Please pack your honey carefully. We don't want to lose a drop!=20 Send it all to:=20 The Great American Honey Hunt=20 c/o The Hoople Group=20 12105 Browning Court Richmond, VA 23233=20 All entries must be received before Memorial Day, Monday, May 26. Questions? Please email Peter at the World Honey Hunt Headquarters - peter@hooplegroup.com=20 If you'd like more information about the American Honey Producers Association, please check out their website .=20 This message brought to you by Bee Culture, The Magazine Of American Beekeeping www.BeeCulture.com =20 Subscribe to the Apis Newsletter http://apis.shorturl.com =20 =20 www.BrushyMountainBeeFarm.com - Supplying the beekeeping community for more than 30 years=20 You received this email because you subscribed to Catch The Buzz=20 Unsubscribe =20 Change settings =20 Report abuse =20 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:56:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10804072300u1b89e7f9v698e8164d0fc30bb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > That is the basic reason why I have been adding acetic acid to the syrup. > It > is not for acidifying the food it is for fuming in the hive for killing > nosema spores. has any research on your method been done? I made a call and the researcher said your concentration was to low a concentration to have any valuable effect on N. ceranae spores. Also worried about the bees storing and then the acetic acid getting into honey. Please don't kill the messenger Juanse! You can treat as you like but I needed to get a researcher opinion on your posting. Otherwise many beeks will be dumping acetic acid in their syrup. 80% glacial acetic acid is a far cry from 5% vinegar. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:36:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Kiling nosema spores (was acetic acid fumigation) In-Reply-To: <004d01c89941$32a383c0$c59de43c@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > If so, I would imagine there would be an extrapolation for higher > temperatures. Yes-see Nosema Twins 5. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:35:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > If I were the USDA-ARS I would ask for their research and then take > further. Why waste years doing the early research? Bob, I appreciate your report on the nosema tape. I was there, and have spent time with the Spanish researchers, and corresponded with them extensively. The US researchers are not as ignorant as you imply, and have taken note of the Spanish work. US researchers are currently trying to confirm the pathogenicity of N ceranae in North America. The answer does not appear to be simple. In my current trial of 7 different treatments given to N ceranae-infected colonies in fall and spring, the results are surprising me. I have not yet made final spore counts, but no single treatment stands out as being particularly effective. Supplemental feeding of a pollen substitute gives initial indications of helping. Some colonies appear to be able to recover from N ceranae better than others, regardless of treatment. However, this may be a case of Higes' "false recovery"--I'm going to track. To my eye, it appears that viruses are a larger issue in the nosema-infected colonies. I'm currently having tests run. The answers to collapses do not appear to be as simple as simply being N ceranae. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 11:14:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation In-Reply-To: <099d01c8995c$36d8d4c0$0200a8c0@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Should that not be 150ml per box? Although a method long used in the U.K. researchers now believe the method I use to work. The method is the current method being suggested by the USDA_ARS. The old method of 150ml. per box has been shown to be a bit of overkill but might work best *if* you needed to reuse the comb in a certain period of time. Their research has shown 150 ml will clear five deeps of spores. *if* however you are doing only one box then 150ml would still be needed . It is my *opinion* that because N.ceranae *is* the nosema U.S. commercial beeks are dealing with *and* some have never used fumidil ( mainly because nosema apis was a silent killer of bees and mainly only effected older forager bees) they are keeping bees on heavily N. ceranae spore contaminated comb. Because fumidil simply controls the active disease ( not the spores) and the bees in most commercial operations are stressed from many other issues the new nosema is even more problematic. I have outlined to beeks what the solution to N. ceranae is but they simply look down and slowly shake their heads. We are only at the tip of the iceberg with N. ceranae. The differences between nosema apis and N. ceranae are serious. N. ceranae spores can be picked up from blooms and from water sources. Open feeding spreads nosema. In the case of fumidil the label recommendations are on the lower border of control. mix a lower amount and you might only suppress the problem for a few weeks. In fall the fumidil goes in the last two gallons of winter feed. Not the first. First step: I would require all hives entering almond pollination and in California to be treated for nosema. Research in Spain shows that hives next to hives with high levels of N.ceranae will become infected. A big undertaking but a validation that the hives were treated for nosema shown at the border might help ease the situation. Last year many hives which crashed after almonds crashed from high n.ceranae loads ( USDA_ARS source). bob " legislation without enforcement is a waste of time and gives beekeepers a false sense of security" **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 11:21:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Should that not be 150ml per box? Athough a method long used in the U.K. researchers now believe the method I use to work. The method is the current method being suggested by the USDA_ARS. The old method of 150ml. per box has been shown to be a bit of overkill but might work best *if* you needed to reuse the comb in a certain period of time. Their research has shown 150 ml will clear five deeps of spores. *if* however you are doing only one box then 150ml would still be needed . It is my *opinion* that because N.ceranae *is* the nosema U.S. commercial beeks are dealing with *and* some have never used fumidil ( mainly because nosema apis was a silent killer of bees and mainly only effected older forager bees) they are keeping bees on heavily N. ceranae spore contaminated comb. Because fumidil simply controls the active disease ( not the spores) and the bees in most commercial operations are stressed from many other issues the new nosema is even more problematic. I have outlined to beeks what the solution to N. ceranae is but they simply look down and slowly shake their heads. We are only at the tip of the iceberg with N. ceranae. The differences between nosema apis and N. ceranae are serious. N. ceranae spores can be picked up from blooms and from water sources. Open feeding spreads nosema. In the case of fumidil the label recommendations are on the lower border of control. mix a lower amount and you might only suppress the problem for a few weeks. In fall the fumidil goes in the last two gallons of winter feed. Not the first. First step: I would require all hives entering almond pollination and in California to be treated for nosema. Research in Spain shows that hives next to hives with high levels of N.ceranae will become infected. A big undertaking but a validation that the hives were treated for nosema shown at the border might help ease the situation. Last year many hives which crashed after almonds crashed from high n.ceranae loads ( USDA_ARS source). second step: I would ask all beekeepers to add to their management plan the use of acetic acid fumigation for deadouts to try and lower N. ceranae spore counts in their outfits. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:29:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy I'll second this FWIW I have 3 consecutive zero nosema tests yet all my hives have ccd symptoms (now down to 16 + 12??) The two that threw 100 bees at -12C are deadouts, ~5 cups corpses Tests june24(11 hives), jan20, mar15 (snow angels) The Mar15 test cost $8, saves having to buy expensive fumidil Yet another 'embarrassing' symptom The feces of ccd bees are extremely stinky No wonder the chickadees don't eat the abdomen I've been in some dairy barns (a few %) malodorous like this, but this is worse In the second half of winter the dysentry picks up, probably another symptom dave **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 16:06:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: 3-year cycle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 In a message dated 08/04/2008 01:36:39 GMT Standard Time, =20 naturebee@YAHOO.COM writes: If you wanted to stick a pinin the problem it would be the apparent weakened immune system of our honeybees, caused by the =E2=80=98environmental factor=E2=80=99 , which can be any number=20 of accumulated stresses, One of which might be lack of available sources of propolis. =20 Chris =20 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 16:12:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/04/2008 04:08:06 GMT Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: I plan to stack the deeps five high an place 150 mm of glacial acetic acid 60-80% on top. Bob, Glacial acetic acid is 100% concentrated. 60 - 80% is fluid. Take good precautions whilst diluting if you value your eyes and skin. Do you intend it to be 150 mm deep or long? Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 17:57:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:29:08 -0400, Dave Thompson wrote: >The two that threw 100 bees at -12C are deadouts, ~5 cups corpses >Tests june24(11 hives), jan20, mar15 (snow angels) >The Mar15 test cost $8, saves having to buy expensive fumidil > >Yet another 'embarrassing' symptom >The feces of ccd bees are extremely stinky >No wonder the chickadees don't eat the abdomen a healthy cluster capable of wintering in the north should be able to shed a couple of 1000 bees before spring. 100 bees and five cups of dead bees (600 per cuo) was a small cluster (3100 bees) to start with if you're planning to over winter in the north. I'd recommend combing 3 hives that size in late Oct into one stack for wintering. we had 4 months of real hard winter this year in central Mn, with 30 nights or more below zero. all of my wrappings smell of bee waste. 80% of my hives made it through with another roughly 10% of dinks that lost bees as usual but stlll have a queen. been that way as long as I can recall going back 17 years now. one of the most common ways to lose a big chunk of the cluster is when they get a patch of brood going in early march and the weather turns real cold. the cluster does not want to leave the brood and they become less mobile as a cluster. many starve out until a big break in the temps. not much a beek can do about those other then get a northern strain of bee thats used to that kind of climate. IMO snow angels that end in death has more to do with the strain of bee, kind of winter feed and the location of the bee yard relative to sun. i find that the Russians lose less for winter cleansing flights . But intense cold snaps that last 2 weeks or more are hard on the bees and they head for the door once it warms up especially in the later half of winter. sometimes all of the bees leaving on cleansing fights die due to the circumstances. i have a yard at home here that faces south on a hillside and warms up fast in feb and march. problem is a north breeze comes over the hill top and pushes the bees down onto the snow. 50 feet away in a lower spot that faces south too i don't get the wind- kill cause of the lay of the land. you need extra bees to get a cluster through the winter. death is part of the cycle of life in keeping bees upnorth and some of the workers are expendable. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 20:33:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: where is spring? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit we're having one of the latest springs I can recall for many years. we only had one day of pollen coming in so far with a big snow storm possible for this weekend. today topped out at 43F. as of last weekend many colonies had larva less then 7 days old which is unusual this late (central MN). so much for global warming this year, the big news could be the late build up in the northern and north eastern states. the climate prediction center calls for below normal temps until 4/22 for the eastern half of the US. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 20:51:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian The 5 cups corpses was what was left in the box They started out in oct as normal population hives As to the stinkiness... I don't remember ever it being so ... stinky dave **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 15:28:22 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Short Fuse! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I'm guessing that?was in reference to?pure privet honey as I've never observed any particular effect on my hives as far as irratibility or ill effects. They also say - I have never tried it - that honey that's mostly privet has a very bad taste and is not liked by humans. There is an area of Long Island generally called the Hamptons where tall privet hedges [and expansive cedar-shingled houses!] are quite common. I imagine if one kept hives there, one could get a lot of privet in the frames. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 17:11:38 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Red Queen Hypothesis revisited Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I have never understood why, particular stationary beekeepers, draw comb on a nectar flow. <..> Sugar syrup can be had cheaper than honey any day, even if you factor in labor... Oh, but the bees will only makes enough wax to store what they are trying to cure. In your case, it will be cured sugar syrup. Bees will not make comb for the sake making comb after all. What do you do with all that cured sugar especially in the honey supers! There seems to be an assumption that drawing comb on a natural flow will greatly diminish the amount of stored honey. I have not seen that to be a significant case. Provided you have the bee numbers, the bees seem to work a little extra hard to get more nectar to build the comb. Very strong colonies will build many frames of comb almost overnight on a 'strong flow.' Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:48:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: where is spring? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I usually see tulip poplar bloom about April 1 here, but have yet to see a bloom this year.? The later arrival of major nectar flow has made the bees somewhat feisty and hives have been full of swarm cells. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:42:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Spain Way Ahead MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank>Concerning nosema ceranae I believe Spain is way ahead of the = >USDA-ARS but >then again why would they not be as they have got a seven year head = >start!=20 >If I were the USDA-ARS I would ask for their research and then take = >further.=20 >Why waste years doing the early research? IMO, this country seems to have a phobia about believing any results = other countries come up with. We're good at reinventing the wheel. = Perhaps we are not the only guilty ones.=20 A. Marshall **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 23:04:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Acetic Acid MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank>.has any research on your method been done? I made a call and >the = .researcher=20 >said your concentration was to low a concentration to have any = >valuable effect on N. ceranae spores. Also worried about the bees = >storing and then the acetic acid getting into honey. Perhaps an analogy, it is possible to keep the flu at bay with a nominal = amount of vitamin C but one would have a tough time using it as a cure. A. Marshall **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 23:10:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Short Fuse! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7-Apr-08, at 4:09 PM, Mike Bassett wrote: >>> I googled privot and it doesn't give > when it bloomes? but it was just before goldenrod in my area Hi Mike and all > My resource shows the privots producing a thick dark rotten tasting > honey in June-July. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:13:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Randy I'll second this > FWIW I have 3 consecutive zero nosema tests > yet all my hives have ccd symptoms (now down to 16 + 12??) ALL the CCD hives tested positive for N. ceranae. If yours are not positive for nosema then I doubt your problems are CCD. The true indicators of CCD would be in my opinion a KBV find with N. ceranae. Those two were found in all the CCD samples. > The Mar15 test cost $8, saves having to buy expensive fumidil Did you spend $8 testing each hive? If so then it seems it would be cheaper to treat. I would hate to think of all the money I have spent on fumidil. However when nosema levels climb I feel even with the old nosema apis fumidil was worth the cost. Take a hive with 60,000 bees and all the foragers die two weeks earlier than normal. The couple dollars to treat the hive was more than made up by the increase in honey production. Horace Bell is the most knowledgeable commercial beekeeper I ever met and I was told by Mid Con ( held the registration for years) years ago he was the largest buyer of fumidil in the world. being his former partner( over four decades ago) and life long friend I can tell you he would never buy a product which did not return his investment with interest. Rarely did nosema apis kill hives except in extreme cases but the new N. ceranae does. The reason today for control of n. ceranae is more than honey production. Those hobby and sideline on the list which have not seen the new nosema in their hives will in my opinion within a couple years. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:58:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring. In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10804080835v131a51f6o1dd5fa3a4751c064@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The US researchers are not as ignorant as you imply, and have > taken note of the Spanish work. I am not sure ignorant fits but arrogant might. Spain research is far ahead of U.S. research as far as N. ceranae is concerned. Spain has eliminated varroa and virus as the source of their disappearing bees and have recreated CCD in the field. I have not yet made final spore counts, but no > single treatment stands out as being particularly effective. You mean other than fumidil? Many of us have been so dissatisfied with U.S. research we have looked to other countries for answers. The U.K. for answers on virus and now Spain on N. ceranae. The thing that U.S. researchers need to remember is when you tell us a different story than those researchers from across the pond (which have got years of research on the subject) we start to wonder if you really have taken the time to read the research from those people. As higher numbers of beeks learn to use the net they find that they can quickly find information faster than simply calling the bee lab. Read research other than research published in the bee magazines. However information on U.S. beekeeping is still best found in ABJ & BC. I was out in the building getting boxes ready for tomorrows splits when Dave Hackenberg called saying he was impressed with my neonicotinoid article ( April ABJ) . Almost brought tears to my eyes when I heard his message. Dave was the inspiration for me doing the article. The world of beekeeping is a small world. Jim Fischer said it best on BEE-L years ago when he said that only in beekeeping could you attend an EAS or national meeting and meet most the people you read about in the bee magazines. I spent countless hours fussing over wording on the neonicotinoid article. I felt the article would be well received with the staff of ABJ (and Joe Grahams always valuable wisdom) and the proof reading of Randy Oliver and Tim Tucker. I received no hate email but did get a few requests for my sources on a couple subjects which I sent to those people. I am considering a part 2 and will include a new fight with Bayer taking place in France ( over a bee kill linked to imidacloprid this month) and research showing dead bees with neonicotinoids found in the mid gut of dead bees. Maryam of our list and doing the "vanishing bees" documentary is in France right now doing interviews. She is going to call me when she returns and report what she learned. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 08:25:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: 3-year cycle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote: >One of which might be lack of available sources of propolis. Or bees that have been bred not to collect it? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 08:31:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Short Fuse! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar wrote: > They also say - I have never tried it - that honey that's mostly privet > has a very bad taste and is not liked by humans. Not good, although it is supposed to be better when it granulates. The flowers certainly have a very unpleasant smell, but hedges are not normally a problem because people keep them clipped and so there are no flowers. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 03:43:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: where is spring? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/04/2008 01:42:59 GMT Standard Time, amesfarm@HOTMAIL.COM writes: we're having one of the latest springs I can recall for many years. we only had one day of pollen coming in so far with a big snow storm possible for this weekend. today topped out at 43F. Here in southern England we have had light snow covering twice this week which us unheard of for April. According to this morning's weather forecast last night was about the coldest April night on record. At 7am this morning there were still 5 degrees F of frost in my garden. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 05:51:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Coleene Davidson Subject: Re: where is spring? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Except for a brief visit this past weekend, it isn't here in Northern Michigan either, although I think the thunder storm we had last night sent the last of the snow on its merry way! Coleene Davidson **************************************************** **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 06:00:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tceisele@MTU.EDU Subject: Re: 3-year cycle In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > In a message dated 08/04/2008 01:36:39 GMT Standard Time, > naturebee@YAHOO.COM writes: > > If you wanted to stick a pinin > the problem it would be the apparent weakened immune > system of our honeybees, caused by the ‘environmental > factor’ , which can be any number > of accumulated stresses, > There were a lot of very helpful replies to my original question, which I am very grateful for. This is not one of them. You see, just saying the problem is "the apparent weakened immune system" doesn't (a) tell me what is weakening the immune system, (b) tell me what I can do to find out what is weakening the immune system, or (c) suggest anything that I can do about it. It's like saying someone "died of heart stoppage" without ever mentioning that the *reason* his heart stopped was because someone shot him. > > One of which might be lack of available sources of propolis. > I don't think so. The yard where I keep bees is surrounded by a well-forested area, with many species of trees, including a lot of pines, spruce, cedar, and other resinous plants. The bees have always had plenty of propolis to use in the hives, everything gets glued together with great thoroughness, holes get patched up completely, and all of the hives are well-coated inside. And before somebody says "pesticides", this is a rural, yet non-agricultural, area. The towns don't spray for mosquitos, the county doesn't spray the sides of the roads, there are no nearby farmers who would spray their crops, and the forestry companies are very much into the whole let-it-grow-with-minimal-intervention idea. If I've got a pesticide problem, then the only place where you *wouldn't* have a pesticide problem would be someplace like Kerguelen Island. I've got a harsh climate and mites (with whatever viruses the mites spread) and probably whatever other diseases have become endemic. Isn't that bad enough? So anyway, I'm going through the many helpful suggestions to decide what I should do next. One of the more intriguing suggestions (which I have recieved from a couple of different sources who are having good luck with it) is to make up nucs in the later part of the summer, and overwinter a large number of nucs instead of trying to overwinter a small number of full hives. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 05:17:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Study: Honey Boosts Wound Healing Through Reduction in pH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Study: Honey Boosts Wound Healing Through Reduction in pH New Study Shows the Use of MEDIHONEY(TM) Wound & Burn Dressing is Associated with Reduction in Wound Size PR Newswire, 4/8/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/04/study-honey-boosts-wound-healing.html PRINCETON, N.J., April 8, 2008 -- Derma Sciences Inc (OTC Bulletin Board: DSCI), a provider of advanced wound care products, announced today that the most recent study involving MEDIHONEY(TM) Wound & Burn Dressing shows that use of the dressings are associated with a reduction in wound size, possibly driven in part by a significant reduction in overall wound pH... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 07:59:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Weller Subject: Re: Short Fuse! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > They also say - I have never tried it - that honey that's mostly privet > has a very bad taste and is not liked by humans. There is an area of Long > Island generally called the Hamptons where tall privet hedges [and > expansive cedar-shingled houses!] are quite common. I imagine if one kept > hives there, one could get a lot of privet in the frames. > In this part of Louisiana, most of our honey comes from privet, and it's quite good. Maybe Long Island privet is a different cultivar from ours. Walter Weller **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 10:39:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Thomson writes: “FWIW I have 3 consecutive zero nosema tests yet all my hives have ccd symptoms (now down to 16 + 12??) The two that threw 100 bees at -12C are deadouts, ~5 cups corpses Tests june24(11 hives), jan20, mar15 (snow angels)” Dave, it would be helpful if you clearly listed the symptoms that you have seen in your hives so that we could compare them with the list of symptoms that have been agreed to add up to CCD. It is hard to tell from the above. For one thing 5 cups of corpses wouldn’t be symptomatic of CCD as I understand it, but then it might not eliminate the possibility either. Also, having read Randy’s articles on Nosema, my understanding is that you could have some hives testing negative right next to hives that are loaded so you can’t necessarily make a conclusion about all the hives in a yard by testing only three hives unless it happens to represent a random and statistically significant sample. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 07:41:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Privet Honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Darrell wrote: > My resource shows the privots producing a thick dark rotten tasting honey in June-July. > > Bob Darrell > Caledon Ontario > Canada > 44N80W . . We have a tremendous amount of invasive privet down here in southern Alabama. I believe it provides a main part of our spring honey flow. I have not noticed the production of any "thick, dark, rotten-tasting" honey here at all. It may be diluted with the flows from other sources so that it is not apparent, but I think we get a different kind of flow from our privet from what you are suggesting. Mike in LA (Lower Alabama) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:01:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Privet Honey In-Reply-To: <114654.12279.qm@web53412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in South Louisiana privet honey is clear and taste like the flower smells. It also sugars fast. Harper's Honey Farm Charles Harper charlie@russianbreeder.org labeeman@russianbreeder.com (337) 298 6261 Mike Stoops wrote: I have not > noticed the production of any "thick, dark, > rotten-tasting" honey here at all. > **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 17:03:27 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: heather gamper Subject: Re: Privet Honey In-Reply-To: <114654.12279.qm@web53412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Privet usually refers to plants in the family Oleaceae (Olive family), part= icularly in the Genus Ligustrum but there are several other plant genera=20 within Oleaceae that have the common name privet. I received a plant from a= beekeeper to plant in my yard that she called privet and it is not even a member of the Oleaceae family!, which makes me think t= hat privet is a very general common name. It might be best to try and look up the plant in a field guide and try to get an idea of wha= t group it is in, before we try to compare apples and oranges. I have also read that the Ligustrum privet can harbor a fair number of scale insec= ts and aphids, which if comparing the same privet species one might get floral nectar vs. insect honeydew as a forage that could contribu= te to differences in the honey? just a thought. > > My resource shows the privots producing a thick dark > rotten tasting honey in June-July. > >=20 > > Bob Darrell > We have a tremendous amount of invasive privet down > here in southern Alabama. =20 > Mike in LA (Lower Alabama) _________________________________________________________________ Going green? See the top 12 foods to eat organic. http://green.msn.com/galleries/photos/photos.aspx?gid=3D164&ocid=3DT003MSN5= 1N1653A= **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:18:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation In-Reply-To: <200804081807.m38GYlNh005583@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >From Wikipedia: "Acetic acid is one of the simplest carboxylic acids (the second-simplest, next to formic acid)." So my question is, "Might formic acid be as effective as acetic acid to fumigate equipment to kill Nosema spores?" I ask because it's not easy for small/mid-sized operations to come by the proper quantity and concentration of acetic acid for fumigation. I was thinking the plastic covers for Ross Rounds would make good containers to hold the CH3COOH but I am not sure if the plastic will react with the CH3COOH. Does anyone know? Hard data please, not opinions. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 15:36:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Mike_Bassett?= Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:18:15 -0400, Aaron Morris wrote: >From Wikipedia: >"Acetic acid is one of the simplest carboxylic acids (the >second-simplest, next to formic acid)." question for New York beekeepers, I was told today that it is not legal to use acetic acid in hives in N.Y. if so is it legal to use in brood chambers that are not on a hive?? thanks mike bassett new york **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:54:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Guys, Many of your acetic acid questions are addressed on my website for free viewing. See Nosema Twins 5. Aaron, ditto re formic acid. Re Ross Rounds--I haven't tried, ask Lloyd for type of plastic. The following are resistant to strong acids: PP, LDPE, HDPE, PMP/TMX Polystyrene is good for only a few days Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:53:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: where is spring? In-Reply-To: <008b01c89a27$42184cf0$92be0740@valuedb5f86e04> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here in SW Pennsylvania, spring is perhaps running 3 weeks late and maple bloom now 9 April is what would normally be occurring about 15 March, bees having missed some of the earlier blooming silver maple at lower elevations due to very poor foraging conditions. Now red and silver maple blooming in upper elevations is much more accessible, having a few warm days here and there,,, no dandelion yet. My colonies have come through winter in very nice shape. Late springs usually delay the buildup somewhat, but I am staying on top because they will build much more rapidly, albeit perhaps a week or so late. I kinda prefer the late springs because it shortens the lul between the end of maple and the start of locust, and the colonies come into the locust on a maple fueled, accelerated broodnest expansion. I’m getting several feral colony calls already, and happy to report an abundance of calls in my hometown which lagged in the feral recovery compared to better bee habitat places more distant. In similar seasons, swarms have been late about a week, but tend come on very strongly when swarming starts, as my extremely ’pro bee’ local pest company reports their take, when we discuss each bee call season. BTW, I often wonder why Penn State, and other bee research aren’t tapping this tremendous resource for the purpose of gaining data on early feral recovery areas, a simple zip code on each bee call can tell much. Best Wishes, Joe Feralbeeproject.com “Many-colored, sunshine-loving, spring-betokening bee! Yellow bee, so mad for love of early-blooming flowers. Till thy waxen cell be full, fair fall thy work and thee, buzzing round the sweetly smelling garden plants and bowers.” -Nicias http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 20:11:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: 3-year cycle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit tceisele@MTU.EDU wrote: >There were a lot of very helpful replies to my original question, which I >am very grateful for. This is not one of them. You see, just saying the >problem is "the apparent weakened immune system" doesn't (a) tell me what >is weakening the immune system, (b) tell me what I can do to find out what >is weakening the immune system, or (c) suggest anything that I can do >about it. Hello Tim, Thanks for the kind encouragement, but you are quoting a post in which I was talking to Chris, and is in NO way responding anything you asked! Well, now you have gotten my attention,,, You want me to name what is causing your problems??? Are you looking for Guesses? Visit any hospital and ask them to name “the cause” of a weakened immune system. I doubt you will get a single cause! I doubt you will get a dozen causes! I doubt you will have the patience to sit and listen to them all! To answer you’re (a) , (b), (c) s. >(a) tell me what is weakening the immune system, The case in my area, ferals not fully recovered from the varroa crashes, there was less variance, and too few feral bees to have proper queen mating. The problem was exacerbated by the tendency for beekeepers in my area to import all sorts of strange strains of bees to cover their losses. Which IMO only served to hinder good breeding and the feral recovery. Queens in Pennsylvania mating with too few drones that are from areas not northern adapted, are treatment dependant, varroa susceptible, and perhaps overly weighted by domestic breeding to the side of ‘industry’ at the expense of ‘survival traits‘, all made for a sickly sub population of bees, incapable of sustaining itself. In short, disease, mites, not locally adapted, and poor mating, will all weaken immune systems, at least I think it does in my area. >(b) tell me what I can do to find out what is weakening the immune system Just look at what’s making your bees look sickly, What stands out the most? Varroa? poor patterns? Brood viability is below 95%? Investigate, and compare with the ferals. If the ferals are wipping your bees butts, then would you think that would point to a direction to follow? (c) suggest anything that I can do >about it. IMO, you need to rebuild the entire sub population to fitness, or your yards, if they would happen to be so big. The collapse of large groups of bees indicates the population is of a pitiful, miserable state of existence. For starters, I can suggest: 1. Trap ferals, focus on feral recovering areas, and bring them in for assessment. 2. Use a cell size of 5.1 or smaller to help pressure varroa 3. Test for hygienic behavior, (I culled anything not near 100%) 4. Set a goal to drop all treatments. 5. And settle on local adapted stock, or a single domestic line that matches what types of ferals exist in your area. Good Luck, Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 17:07:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring. In-Reply-To: <7439052911A84CD6826AF793D6171403@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >ALL the CCD hives tested positive for N. ceranae. Only those in the Cox-Foster paper. Many more have been been found to be negative for nosema. I have tested several of my collapsing colonies. Some have high titers of nosema, some have none. If N ceranae were always present in CCD colonies, the research teams might have thought that they found the cause. But it does not appear to be so. Bob, after reading the European literature last year, and corresponding with the researchers, I intially thought that N ceranae might be the culprit behind CCD. IMHO, it is causing considerable problems, but there is something else going on. My guess is that it is viral. The situation is very complex. I will be detailing in my series in prep. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 02:57:08 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation In-Reply-To: <188370A35F004C4CBD2BA8867DA103EA@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Bob I understand partially what you are saying. Please remember that my mother tongue is spanish. I do not understand the expression "80% glacial acetic acid is a far cry from 5% vinegar" nor either the one "Please don't kill th= e messenger Juanse!" I do not want to kill any one. My reasoning have been the following: 1.- Ask my colleagues from Chile about their winter mortalitiess and symptoms. Ask my colleguess about their autum preparations and any special care for Nosema. The minimun comun multiple was that those that have low winter losses use acetic acid in their syrup and give some sort of protein/nutrition. 2.- About research on Nosema, my bilbe is an excelente argentinian research about Nosema Apis on the 50`s - 70`s from Cornejo y Rossi: Las enfermedades de las abejas profilaxis y prevenci=F3n (my edition is from 1975). There they aware the beeks about the "infectant mass". They recomend a.- to treat un used equipment with glacial acetic acid in autum and spirng= . They give the dose of 200 ml per one cubic metre of equipment if stored in = a proper shed (not ventilation: "camara de gas") or 200 ml per 8 standard lanstroth supers if staked out side (minimun circulation). b.- To change the colonies/families to saniticed equipment early in the spring. And sanitice subsequently the free d equipment. They recomend eithe= r flaming or acetic. c.- Minimice stress (opening when cold, moving, bad nutrition, etc) , Minimice re-contamination with syrup with dead bees or smashing bee when working the hive. d.- Autum feed fumagilin. My managment have been then: 0.- If colony in problem during winter dribble chlorine. a.- Change the colonies to saniticed material in early spring. For sanitizing I scraped the boxes and then let them soak for 5 minutes in chlorinated water (4%). Let dry for a day, then place new family. b.- Feed with acetic syrup 5% and nutrition (promotor-l). My reasonig for dosing. I say if 200 ml per one cubic metre of material or 200 ml per 8 boxes, then between 10 to 25 ml per box. If I feed between 2 to 3 litres pe= r week with 5 ml per litre, then I am puting in the box , between 10 and 15 m= l of acetic per week for at leat 6 weeks. In the time/temperature inverse relation discussed it should be ok. I will agree with you that this is just a guesstimation and that it will be lovelly to have scientific evidence. This is early spring feeding so there shouldn`t be any honey contamination. Then comes my multiplication time and most of the "collected" honey in the brood box" end up in new nucleos families. I do never harvest the frames that have been in the lower box. c.- I autum feed fumagilin to most of them. I have some with formic treatment and some with no nosema treatment. Mayor scale experimenting. I will report at the end of winter (august). --=20 Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 20:25:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Weller Subject: Re: where is spring? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I feel sorry for all of y'all who haven't had any spring yet, but here in central Louisiana we've had the longest, most beautiful spring in my eighty-year memory. It's fading now. Walter Weller **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:12:02 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: where is spring? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Here in southern England <...> according to this morning's weather forecast last night was about the coldest April night on record. At 7am this morning there were still 5 degrees F of frost in my garden. Is there a lot of talk in your neck of the woods about the slowing down of the North Atlantic Heat Conveyor due to global warming? This news piece is from a couple of years ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4485840.stm Here on Long Island (eastern US), our climate is also moderated by the N.A. Conveyor. So far this spring, we have only had a couple of relatively nice days. It's been cold although the bees are taking advantage of any days when the solar heat offsets the cold breeze. A delayed spring for us typically means a huge spring flow when plant species bloom one after another producing a seemingly seamless flow. The trick/art is to support the bees build up in the cold weather and keep them from building swarm cells... Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 15:38:15 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>you need extra bees to get a cluster through the winter. death is part of the cycle of life in keeping bees upnorth... Is anyone checking for or trying to control tracheal mites? I think I have tracheal mites which ground a good number of bees in March. The barely flying weather can bring a 50% drop in population (it seems the bees are [barely?] alive as long as they stay in the hive). It seems to me the perishing bees take a lot of t. mites with them. The colonies build up nice otherwise and go through the season with good results. This sort of steep 'spring dwidling/cleansing' cleansing is ok. 4-5 frames of bees at the end of March will get the hive ready for the flow on May 1st. I have heard that bees have more resistance of tracheal mites. Through the selection from the strongest colonies, I hope to get more and more resistant bees to tracheal as well as varroa mites. Waldemar PS. I am working with a friend of mine who has access to a microscope to verify the presence of t. mites. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 15:51:46 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>“FWIW I have 3 consecutive zero nosema tests yet all my hives have ccd symptoms (now down to 16 + 12??) At least in the late winter and early/cold spring, tracheal mites would cause a lot of bees to be weakened to the point where they will die in flight away from the hive. There will be brood and a queen left behind. Another possible scenario to consider. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 17:11:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >I was told today that it is not legal > to use acetic acid in hives in N.Y. if so is it legal to use in brood > chambers that are not on a hive?? If a substance is not registered for control of a pest, it may not be legal to use as a pesticide or treatment. Acetic acid has a long history of use, but is not registered in Calif, so cannot be legally recommended to control nosema. But it can legally be used as a "hive freshener" of brood chambers not on a hive. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:12:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Privet Honey In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9-Apr-08, at 1:03 PM, heather gamper wrote: > Privet usually refers to plants in the family Oleaceae (Olive > family), particularly in the Genus Ligustrum but there are several > other plant genera > within Oleaceae that have the common name privet. I have > also read that the Ligustrum privet can harbor a fair number of > scale insects and aphids, which if comparing the same privet > species one > might get floral nectar vs. insect honeydew as a forage that could > contribute to differences in the honey? just a thought. > >>> Hi Heather and all Thanks for pointing out that common names vary from place to place. I was talking of 2 privots found in Ontario. Ligustrum amurense(amur privot from China) and native L. vulgare(common privot). The original post was from New York where climate etc are similar to Ontario, and flowering times should also be similar. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:22:40 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bee Quick Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The old method of 150ml per box has been shown to be a bit of > overkill but might work best *if* you needed to reuse the comb > in a certain period of time. I'm not sure I understand the above. Using more acetic acid would allow one to put the comb back into service sooner? How's that gonna work? > Their research has shown 150 ml will clear five deeps of spores. *if* > however you are doing only one box then 150ml would still be needed. Wow, that's gotta be some research! Who did the work? I'm surprised I did not hear about it at the time, as they have apparently invalidated Boyle's Law, Avogadro's hypothesis, the Ideal Gas Law, and the rest of chemistry as we thought we knew it. I'm guessing that there's more to this and it will somehow all make sense with a full reading, so please post a citation or something. It is all fun and games until someone gives themselves a nasty chemical burn, and acetic acid ranks right up there with formic acid on the list of stuff you want to handle with care, use precisely, and store where the kids can't get into it. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:38:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: where is spring? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit blizzard and winter storm warnings for most of Minnesota 10-14" of snow with 40 mph winds http://www.crh.noaa.gov/mpx/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:14:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: An angry buzz across Maine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline SOUTH PORTLAND (April 10, 2008): The South Portland City Council voted Monday night to send the city's first beekeeping ordinance back to workshop for further review after it created an angry buzz across Maine. The Council's flight from establishing a local beekeeping ordinance happened after members received several letters and e-mails from hobbyists who say that Maine already has a state Beekeepers Association that educates the public, registers keepers and offers a comprehensive list of best practices for people to follow. The letter writers complained that local regulations, fees and a permitting process will discourage back yard honey bee operations and make them too costly. The beekeeping ordinance sets up an annual $25 registration fee. It limits the number of colonies that a homeowner can have based on property size. For example, a beekeeper can keep up to two colonies on a quarter acre of land or less. The ordinance details the types of hives and requires that colonies have a queen. Under the ordinance, beekeepers must provide the insects with a constant source of water, since they will fly to swimming pools and even outdoor pet dishes, if fresh water is not provided by the beekeeper. South Portland has a long and storied history of beekeepers. One of its most famous residents, Fred Hale, was an avid beekeeper. Known as America's oldest living man, Hale credited his longevity to eating honey and bee pollen [along with the occasional nip of whiskey]. Hale's honey came from bees he kept as a hobbyist. Hale died in 2004 at the age of 113. Web sites on Hale contain sweet memories of his beekeeping and honey making in South Portland. "I knew Fred when we both lived in South Portland, Maine, in the late seventies," wrote former resident Richard Johnson in 2007. "He sparked my interest in beekeeping. I visited him quite a few times and he talked about beekeeping mostly." http://www.keepmecurrent.com/Community/story.cfm?storyID=51743 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_H._Hale,_Sr. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:19:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bee Quick wrote: "acetic acid ranks right up there". He's right, y'know. ACETIC ACID POISON! DANGER! CORROSIVE. LIQUID AND MIST CAUSE SEVERE BURNS TO ALL BODY TISSUE. MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED. HARMFUL IF INHALED. INHALATION MAY CAUSE LUNG AND TOOTH DAMAGE. FLAMMABLE LIQUID AND VAPOR. SAF-T-DATA(tm) Ratings (Provided here for your convenience) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Health Rating: 3 - Severe (Poison) Flammability Rating: 2 - Moderate Reactivity Rating: 2 - Moderate Contact Rating: 4 - Extreme (Corrosive) Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES & SHIELD; LAB COAT & APRON; VENT HOOD; PROPER GLOVES; CLASS B EXTINGUISHER Storage Color Code: Red (Flammable) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Potential Health Effects ---------------------------------- Inhalation: Inhalation of concentrated vapors may cause serious damage to the lining of the nose, throat, and lungs. Breathing difficulties may occur. Neither odor nor degree of irritation are adequate to indicate vapor concentration. Ingestion: Swallowing can cause severe injury leading to death. Symptoms include sore throat, vomiting, and diarrhea. Ingestion of as little as 1.0 ml has resulted in perforation of the esophagus. Skin Contact: Contact with concentrated solution may cause serious damage to the skin. Effects may include redness, pain, skin burns. High vapor concentrations may cause skin sensitization. Eye Contact: Eye contact with concentrated solutions may cause severe eye damage followed by loss of sight. Exposure to vapor may cause intense watering and irritation to eyes. Chronic Exposure: Repeated or prolonged exposures may cause darkening of the skin, erosion of exposed front teeth, and chronic inflammation of the nose, throat, and bronchial tubes. Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions: Persons with pre-existing skin disorders or eye problems, or impaired respiratory function may be more susceptible to the effects of the substance. -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:02:55 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: First removal call of the season!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just got my first call to remove honey bees this year. The homeowner says that bees have been in the oak tree for 3 years. I suggested co-existing with the bees but she said it was not an option because her [dark, hairy] dog has been stung a few times and has had to be taken to the vet... We had a relatively mild winter here in south-eastern NY state (Long Island) and I believe a lot of feral/unmanaged colonies have survived just fine. It's good to get called this early in the season - the population should be just about at its smallest [although my strongest hive has 10 frames of eggs & brood!] and there should not be a ton of honey... Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:07:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ - HONEY CONTEST BEGINS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit this idea must of been conceived by honey packers or marketers instead of honey producers. most of us have old crop honey on hand at this time of the year, no mention of what criteria will be used to judge the honey and no mention of what "reward" is being offered either? are their classes of honey like amber or white? or is creamed honey or comb honey classes being judged either. i think they need to do some better planning on this concept and also have the cut off in sept like many state fairs do to capture the new crop. to me it sounds poorly planned like having a pumpkin contest in April. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:33:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We can verify Randy's observations. To date, we have more than 1000 samples from 70+ locations across the U.S. We often see Nosema ceranae in collapsing colonies, but NOT in all of the colonies. This may be a correct finding, or it may be a result that is an artifact of incorrect sampling - having to do with what is termed 'a representative sample'. In other words, how many bees, of what age, and in what part of the colony do you need to sample to discover something, if its there. Defining what is a truly representative sample takes some work. Based on the findings of the Spanish, conversations with Randy and Eric Mussen, we've changed our sampling, and put it to the test last week in CA. In many cases, we got decidedly different results, depending on the age of the bees that we sampled. As reported by the Spanish investigators, if N. ceranae was present in these samples, we found that it showed up in the old bees, and in dead and dying bees in front of the hive, but not necessarily in young bees. In really bad cases, it was in bees of all ages. I also recently saw what may be my first observed case of a bee kill from N. ceranae,. The colonies were doing poorly, dead bees on ground in front of hive (1-2 bees per square inch, for 1-2 feet out from entrance), dead/dying bees were of all ages, and they were loaded with N. ceranae - worst case that we've seen. In addition, this beekeeper and others who have sent us samples with high levels of Nosema often report that their colonies aren't making honey. Since last April, we've been finding N. ceranae in lots of colonies. Like others, we're having trouble finding any N. apis. From our findings, if a bee operation has CCD, we will see N. ceranae in at least some of the bee colonies. I still don't know if its a causal agent or a consequence of some other pathogen. We are seeing viruses in conjunction with Nosema in CCD colonies. Clearly, some bee operations have a Nosema ceranae problem, and it by itself, at the levels we've seen in some of these operations, reportedly is sufficient to cause major problems. And, we've seen lots of failures of various treatments in terms of ability to control this pathogen. Simply stated, we lost 90% of our colonies, and they were treated with registered products, at the doses, etc. on the label. Eric commented to me that some of the commercial products vary in terms of concentration of active ingredient, so read the label before making up any syrup. This reminds me of the days in which TM came in lots of different concentrations, with little or no labeling that would give you a warning that the product varied - eventually they started clearly labeling as TM as TM10, 25, or 100. Also, according to Eric, Randy pointed out to him that the last registration for fumagillin that we had in the US was when we were using Fumidil-B. The Medivet product, Fumagilin-B, is coming into the US from Canada under a veterinarian memorandum of understanding with the FDA. It is not registered. IF/when bees go off feed, they won't take any medication in syrup, since they won't eat. The Spanish drench their bees to treat severe cases of Nosema. That's NOT according to label in the U.S. I've heard rumors that the drench method is described on the label of one of the Canadian products - if so, maybe someone on this list has that information. Note, neither I nor Eric can recommend use of unregistered products nor off label applications. I'm not convinced that force feeding (by drenching) of sick bees is going to work - it may be too late. That said, even in the worst case scenarios, we found colonies with lots of Nosema in older bees, but the newly emerged bees were not infected - yet. So, treating these colonies may save these bees. Just don't expect it to help the old bees - they may be too far gone. However, like Randy, I don't think Nosema ceranae is the full answer with respect to CCD. Having seen a case of what appears to be a classic bee kill by Nosema, as reported by the Spanish - it was NOT the SAME as CCD. Nosema is of sufficient concern, unto itself, that we've set up to screen bees and comb for Nosema, with MSU doing PCR confirmations (is it ceranae or apis), as needed. So, check for Nosema, but don't blindly treat. Treat if you find it. You may have to treat now to protect the summer bees, treat again in the fall to get through the winter - again, according to our colleagues across the pond. Reportedly, if left untreated, it will begin to show up in bees inside the hive by mid-summer. Treating for Nosema twice a year should help, but it doesn't seem to cover all cases of CCD. DO NOT EXPECT it to protect you against CCD. Nosema may be a player in terms of CCD, but its not the full answer. We've re-sampled some operations that have had a long history of poor performance, as well as having had CCD. Operations with lingering problems (over months) frequently have Nosema. To summarize: We currently think that N. ceranae accounts for some of the poor performance and bee losses being seen. I think it may be a component of CCD. I don't think it causes CCD by itself - but this is clearly in the realm of OPINION. Best advice, start screening for N. ceranae, year round. Treat if needed, and follow up with Nosema screening to see if the treatment worked. Keep in mind, we've been finding Nosema all year round. Jerry **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:36:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Bee Quick wrote: "acetic acid ranks right up there". He's right, y'know. > > If you think taking the proper precautions for handling are too risky then > or course both of you should not consider acetic acid fumigation of comb. > > Acetic acid fumigation of bee comb is common practice in many parts of the > world (without problems I might add) and was recommended by the USDA -ARS > at the national meeting for *freshening* up old comb. > > If Bee Quick had taken the time to go back to the start and read all the > posts he would have seen that the recommended dose for use in the U.K. is > 150 ml for a langstroth box. Yes a single box. > > Also the the beekeepers in Chile have found they can use 200ml and treat > up to 8 boxes. The USDA-ARS said 150ml will treat up to 5 deeps. > > A hobby beekeeper might need to treat a single box which was why I said > what I did. > > The Shiminuki recommended method set a time limit when the new USDA-ARS > recommendation says to keep on until the acetic acid is gone. Which is why > I said *if* you need to reuse your boxes quicker then perhaps the > Shiminuki method might be better as you simply treat for a certain period > of time. > > I on the other hand would need to treat a pallet of comb. In fact the > 200ml for 8 might work better for me or some variation as I stack 6 deeps > high and six stacks to a pallet or 36 deeps to a pallet. > > Also kids can go to Wal Mart and buy a battery for their mini bike but > have to install the acid had home. Most use no protection but battery acid > is as big a problem as acetic acid as far as getting in eyes or on skin. > Properly handled adult beekeepers should not have a problem with acetic > acid or formic acid. > > bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:51:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: tracheal revisited Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DANKA, R. G. and J. D. VILLA. 2000. A survey of tracheal mite resistance levels in U.S. commercial queen breeder colonies. American Bee Journal 140: 405-407. Almost a decade old but still useful a reference for unexplained winter losses. Looks like a roll of the dice if you are buying queens. see link for graph http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=2744&page=12 A Survey of Tracheal Mite Resistance Levels in U.S. Commercial Queen Breeder Colonies "Research has shown that honey bee strains having genetic resistance to tracheal mites (Acarapis woodi) can be used to help to solve the problems resulting from parasitism by this mite. Colonies of resistant bees tend to withstand challenge from tracheal mites and remain productive without treatment, while susceptible colonies tend to become infested at damaging levels. Resistance to tracheal mites is of interest to bee breeders who are trying to improve stock quality. Identifying the level of resistance in breeding colonies should be a critical part of such breeding efforts. However, little is currently known about the resistance in the commercial breeding population used to supply queens for the U.S. beekeeping industry. Our objectives were to measure the range of resistance in a sample of U.S. commercial breeder colonies, and enable participating queen breeders to improve the quality of their stock by providing selection guidance. Eight commercial queen producers from five states submitted brood from 6 to 19 breeder colonies each so that emerging bees could be evaluated for relative resistance to tracheal mites. Young, uninfested bees from each colony of an individual queen producer, and also from colonies of two reference stocks (one known to be resistant to tracheal mites and one known to be susceptible), were marked and then simultaneously exposed to mites in infested colonies. They were retrieved after 4-6 days and dissected to determine resulting mite infestations. Results for the breeder colonies were adjusted to the average results of the resistant and susceptible reference colonies with which they were tested. The 83 breeder colonies varied widely in their responses to tracheal mites. About two-thirds were statistically similar to the resistant reference and one-fourth were similar to the susceptible reference. Three queen producers had 30 of 31 breeder colonies that were classified as resistant. The other five queen producers had breeder colonies that were very variable and of which 40% were susceptible. The most striking result of this survey was the variability in levels of tracheal mite resistance among colonies of U.S. commercial breeding stock. This breeding population can be expected to yield propagated queens that range widely in quality: some queens will be useful in improving stock by imparting resistance, while others will predispose their colonies to damaging mite infestations. In the absence of knowledge about the resistance levels of individual breeder colonies, the performance (vis-vis tracheal mites) of production colonies headed by commercial queens becomes largely a matter of the chance associated with a queen producer=s random selection of a grafting source from among his or her breeder colonies. Fortunately, the majority of colonies we tested had useful resistance to tracheal mites. However, queens propagated from susceptible colonies and then widely distributed through commercial sales may contribute to the lingering problems associated with tracheal mites across the country. The findings from this survey emphasize the value of testing in enabling effective selection for resistance to tracheal mites. Through testing, susceptible colonies are easily identified and can be eliminated. Several of the queen breeders who participated in this survey reported that susceptible colonies were removed from their breeding programs soon after they received the test results. " The russian lines were very resistant when looked at in the late 1990's http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=2744&page=8 are they resistant to nosema ceranae also? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:23:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: tracheal revisited In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > are they resistant to nosema ceranae also? My Russian bees always had very low levels of tracheal mites (TM). My Italians always needed treatment. My treatment for TM cost me around fifty cents a hive. I have found some N. ceranae in all my stocks and each group has had some hives crash. Too early for my thoughts right now but it seems the mixing and timing of fumidl is as important as feeding. When dealing with a large number of hives you can miss the hive showing the non feeding symptom. Realizing you have got a problem when you see a feeder full of dead bees or a hive or two (out of a yard) which should be taking feed is important. Not sure as jerry says right now what plan of action to take. Depending on the time of year killing the hive and bringing the comb in for acetic acid treatment might be the best move. Doing experiments now but in yards I drenched and left the N. ceranae problem hives the whole yard now does not look as well as the other yards. The hives I drenched for the most part ( 75%) died . The good thing is all the hives right now are taking feed. Beekeepers which do not feed bees might have N. ceranae sneak up on them. Eric Mussen said he believes hives with N. ceranae can recover if they are still taking feed. My question is like Jerry's " are the hives heavily infected worth the bother?". Left in the yard they cause problems for the other hives and what about spore counts in those hives. I believe my *final answer* will be to depopulate and use acetic acid on the boxes. What I find interesting is that I have been testing and feeding fumidil for many years (spring & fall) yet n. ceranae has displaced nosema apis and I see some hives having problems. My N. ceranae problems only involve a tiny percent of hives but if I would ignore the problem I believe the whole outfit would crash in a year or so. I do not believe I should be seeing any hives with N. ceranae serious problems but I am so trying to figure out why. My opinion is I have been too slow to act when I see the symptoms. Spain recommends if your bees test positive for N. ceranae you should treat regardless of spore counts. My final Missouri winter loss has been in the 6% range ( lowest since 2002). My problem this year is not enough equipment to make spilts. A good problem to have. I have found depopulating the "dinks" is a sound management practice and use the equipment to make up new hives headed by new queens. Moving brood from N. ceranae infested hives is not a good thing in my opinion. You could be dooming the new hive. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:45:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: >> but battery acid is as big a problem as acetic acid as far as getting in >> eyes or on skin. I think not. I have splashed battery acid (around 35% sulphuric acid) on my skin and washed it off with no ill effects; I would not want to try it with 80% (or higher) acetic which I understand will strip skin off in seconds. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:29:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Tracheal Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All There are some parts of the U.S. that seem to have a chronic Tracheal Mite problem. There have been a few reports of tracheal mites in recovering CCD colonies. To date, we have not seen Tracheal Mite in most of the CCD samples that we have taken. We can't blame CCD on tracheal mites, and these mites have not been the cause of this year's overwintering losses that we've looked at in the western states. That doesn't mean it has disappeared, but its not like it was 10 years ago, so I doubt that old studies of tracheal mite resistance in breeding stocks mean much today. I'm not sure why it persists in some regions, but I doubt that its gone - it has a tendency to pop up here and there. A few years ago, we had a tracheal mite problem in the Pacific NW, long after we thought it had stopped being a problem. My guess, under the right envionmental conditions, particularly in winter in the northern states, it can re-appear. But, it hasn't been seen in the CCD colonies we've looked at this fall and winter. Jerry **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:17:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry Bromenshenk writes: “Best advice, start screening for N. ceranae, year round. Treat if needed, and follow up with Nosema screening to see if the treatment worked.” As far as treatment goes does it matter whether you have N. ceranae or N. apis? I ask this because it seems like it is a bigger deal to determine which one you have than it is to just determine that you have Nosema. Also, I wonder if there is a way to test fecal material for Nosema spores. It would seem that if you had streaking you would be sure to have Nosema spores in the feces if that was the cause of the streaking. Of course just because you don't see streaking it doesn't mean you don't have Nosema. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:42:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: where is spring? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/04/2008 03:31:23 GMT Standard Time, waldig@NETZERO.NET writes: Is there a lot of talk in your neck of the woods about the slowing down of the North Atlantic Heat Conveyor due to global warming? This news piece is from a couple of years ago: It is mentioned from time to time. Generally our typical weather pattern is a series of low pressure areas coming east from the Atlantic but I have the impression (not having counted) that lately we have been having more relatively dry, cold northerlies. However, the rain gauge on my garden shed shows rainfall this year so far to be almost an exact match for 2004. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:55:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Dave Cushman In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Received an E-mail from Dave today. He is home from hospital but very weak. Bob darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:43:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Tracheal Mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:29:51 EDT, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: >That doesn't mean it has disappeared, but its not like it was 10 years ago, >so I doubt that old studies of tracheal mite resistance in breeding stocks >mean much today. > Are you suggesting that the Russian stock is not as resistant as 10 years ago? or merely saying that commercial stock resistance is not representative anymore of stock 10 years ago? I would think that given the hard work of what is now known as the Russian Honeybee Breeders Association that the same traits are intact. http://russianbreeder.org/ Its interesting to hear your observations and how tracheal can possibly flare up given environmental conditions. Form what you and others describe testing for nosema and tracheal is an important part of modern beekeeping now. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:28:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Also, I wonder if there is a way to test fecal material for Nosema spores. >Steve Noble Well, you could look at it under a microscope. http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/DSCN2076.jpg This is a photo I made of some bee poop. Squished the poop on a slide, diluted with a drop of water, and covered with a slip. I took the photo by holding my digital camera against the scope's eyepiece, and shooting. The bee was a random snow angel. Mike **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:58:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Palmer submitted: http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/DSCN2076.jpg Wow! Great photo, Mike! I never would have guessed you could get that good a shot by just holding your camera up to the scope. What magnification is that shot? I am thinking that bee had a pretty bad case of Nosema. Can you tell from the picture if it is ceranae or apis? Now I know I just gotta get a scope. Thanks for the tip. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:44:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation In-Reply-To: <017b01c89b4b$d5925a50$0200a8c0@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would not want to try it with > 80% (or higher) acetic which I understand will strip skin off in seconds. seconds? I would not want to not handle properly myself but what other choice does the larger beekeeper have? Burn? My friend Dave Hackenberg asked if I wanted to get a pallet of comb irradiated in Florida. The cost was around two thousand dollars a pallet.( 36 deeps) acetic acid fumigation: You make a stack of boxes. Use a spacer. install the acid in container and place, when gone you air out the comb. Not rocket science. However those afraid of the process need to find another method. I have got all new comb which has never had fluvalinate, amatraz or choumaphos used with all foundation less than five years old. Burning is not an option. irradiating might be an option if I was within 30 miles of the facility as Dave Hackenberg is but still acetic acid seems the best route. I see n. ceranae as a problem which will need monitoring for a long time. CCD (whatever CCD is?) has turned up many problems in our bees. I suggest beekeepers forget about waiting for the single cause and start working on solving the problems the CCD team has already found wrong in our bees. I am! I have got the face shield, full suit, gloves and respirator. however you figure it acetic acid is still the lowest priced treatment for nosema spores. In fact the above equipment has always been in my shop. Several sets if needed. I have run a small orchard business for years. However the protection equipment is easy to find and not expensive. The problem is most sellers of acetic acid will not ship to other than a business address but the product is available. Larger beekeepers should not have a problem ordering but others might. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:23:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Also, I wonder if there is a way to test fecal material for Nosema spores. > It would seem that if you had streaking you would be sure to have Nosema > spores in the feces if that was the cause of the streaking. Yes, you can test streaks. Scrape them off hive covers or a windshield. Dissolve in a drop of water to rehydrate the spores. View after a minute. >Of course just > because you don't see streaking it doesn't mean you don't have Nosema. Absolutely right! Thanks for the data, Jerry! Let me confirm that I have found that colonies that collapse with high nosema counts prior, can have low counts in the surviving handful of young bees (pers obs) Also, colonies with high levels in fall, can collapse down to one frame of bees, yet appear to recover in spring. I am currently tracking some to monitor the progress of their recovery. Re Juanse's observation that feeding vinegar plus pollen supp helps against nosema, I suspect that the pollen supp alone will do the trick! Everyone, we are all in this together, and learning as we go. There are no experts on Nosema ceranae in North America. If you have a scope, check for spores, follow infections, record symptoms, do controlled trials of treatments, and then share what you find. I will be happy to act as a clearinghouse for information on my website. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 01:19:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: hard to explain this one Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.king5.com/video/news-index.html?nvid=234583 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:18:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bman140 Subject: Re: Dave Cushman In-Reply-To: <27E50EE9-4B6B-4970-8CE0-33B954A063D1@interlog.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That's good to hear. It's always a good thing to come home. Thanks for the update. Ed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:06:29 -0700 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew Shepherd (Xerces Society)" Subject: Deadly bacteria threatens Western Washington bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I had the following news story sent to me yesterday. This was the first I'd= heard of a bacteria wiping out hives in western Washington. Does anyone on= this list have any more information or insight? Thanks, Matthew ******************************************************************* Deadly bacteria threatens Western Washington bees http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_040908WAB_bee_vaccination_KS.4ab75= 471.html 07:17 PM PDT on Wednesday, April 9, 2008 By GARY CHITTIM / KING 5 News YAKIMA - State beekeepers are taking emergency action to head off bacteria= that's wiped out almost all of the hives in Western Washington. It's a desperate last stand to keep it from spreading east. Eric Olson, of the Washington State Beekeepers Association, opened one of= the few hives that survived after pollinating Western Washington crops= last year. "Of the 4,500 hives we had in Western Washington, 80 percent were dead, and= the other 20 percent of them weren't any good," he said. Olson soon learned a new strain of a deadly bee bacteria is attacking his= hives. So far it's limited to bees that pollinate Western Washington's= famous berry crops. But if it spreads, it could decimate the many farms= and orchards that depend on bees in Central and Eastern Washington. "Oh my God, it's everything and that's what makes this such a huge= emergency for all of agriculture," he said. Olson is hoping a powerful dose of vaccine used to kill the more= traditional forms of the bacteria will attack this one. The bees' sugary= food is spiked with the vaccine. But nothing is for sure. No one knows if the same old vaccine will work for= a new bacteria. If it doesn't, Olson said: "We're screwed, there will be no any bees here= next spring." He thinks Western Washington will be the first place in the United States= that doesn't have pollination. Keepers on the other side of the Cascades will know in within weeks if they= were able to stop it from spreading. ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society for Invertebrate Conservation The Xerces Society is an international nonprofit organization that protects wildlife through the conservation of invertebrates and their habitat. To join the Society, make a contribution, or read about our work, please visit www.xerces.org. Matthew Shepherd Senior Conservation Associate 4828 SE Hawthorne Boulevard, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Cell: 503-807 1577 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:42:48 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Tracheal Mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>My guess, under the right envionmental conditions, particularly in winter in the northern states, it can re-appear. Do tracheal mites reproduce year round? If so, I can see how they wreck havoc with a downsized colony at the end of the winter. What are the recommended treatments for tracheal mites? I understand formic acid is pretty effective. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 05:00:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Flavonoid Profile Could Be Basis for Differentiating Honeys MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Flavonoid Profile Could Be Basis for Differentiating Honeys Flavonoid Pattern of Sage (Salvia officinalis L.) Unifloral Honey Food Chemistry, Volume 110, Issue 1, 1 September 2008, Pages 187-192 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/04/flavonoid-profile-could-be-basis-for.html Abstract: The aim of the present paper was to determine the flavonoids in monofloral sage (Salvia officinalis L.) honey which is characteristic and specific for the area of Croatian coast and islands... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:01:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Deadly bacteria threatens Western Washington bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A contact I have in Oregon who says that Eric Olson is referring to Nosema Ceranae. He had no other information other then saying there was big winter losses in the WA,OR area and that they had an unusually harsh winter. The video clip I posted is from the same news story. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:32:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Deadly bacteria threatens Western Washin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: >A contact I have in Oregon who says that Eric Olson is referring to Nosema Ceranae. Right, and nosema are not bacteria but microspodia > Microsporidia are a large group of microbial eukaryotes composed exclusively of obligate intracellular parasites of other eukaryotes. Almost 150 years of microsporidian research has led to a basic understanding of many aspects of microsporidian biology, especially their unique and highly specialized mode of infection, where the parasite enters its host through a projectile tube that is expelled at high velocity. Molecular biology and genomic studies on microsporidia have also drawn attention to many other unusual features, including a unique core carbon metabolism and genomes in the size range of bacteria. These seemingly simple parasites were once thought to be the most primitive eukaryotes; however, we now know from molecular phylogeny that they are highly specialized fungi. The fungal nature of microsporidia indicates that microsporidia have undergone severe selective reduction permeating every level of their biology: From cell structures to metabolism, and from genomic! s to gene structure, microsporidia are reduced. -- MICROSPORIDIA: Biology and Evolution of Highly Reduced Intracellular Parasites Patrick J. Keeling, Naomi M. Fast Annual Review of Microbiology, October 2002, Vol. 56, Pages 93-116 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:54:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Questions and Comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll try to respond to several issues. 1) Re: Deadly bacteria in WA. Either Matt Shepherd from Xerces Society got it wrong, or some reporter did. Some WA bee operations have lost large numbers of colonies. We sampled some in Jan, Steve Shepherd is currently shadowing some. Nothing particularly new - no new bacteria that I know of, but, Nosema is present, and bee losses running to 50% of colonies. 2) Its an open question of whether N. apis can be found in the U.S. anymore, or whether N. ceranae has partially or totally replaced it. Same treatment for both -- but N. ceranae seems to be much harder to control. 3) It takes another step to positively identify N. ceranae - our MSU colleague can do this. I think we still have both species of Nosema - I suspect a problem with the primers being used, since labs in other countries have been getting somewhat different results with respect to presence or absence of N. apis, and we still see spotting on hives in the spring. (If anyone has a particularly bad set of hives with heavy, fresh spotting, please contact me, I'd like to get bee samples to test for N. apis.) 4) The Spanish documented a shift from N. apis to N. ceranae, followed the change over some years. 5) To understand how N. ceranae is affecting U.S. bees, its important to know which fungus we are dealing with, rather than just assume its N. ceranae. That's a research question that would be assisted by confirmation from the industry. 6) There is a slight physical difference between the spores of apis and ceranae, but I doubt that the average person can accurately make that call. 7) Missouri is one of the regions that still has a tracheal presence - its not typical of all areas of the U.S. - sorry Bob. Jerry **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:57:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: N. ceranae hits Wa. state Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nosema ceranae hits Washington State hard. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004341374_bee11m.html This is a little too close to home for me, and I think I may have already been hit. I've lost two of ten hives late winter/early spring so far and one seems to have been from Nosema, although I haven't absolutely confirmed that. Haven't got that microscope yet. There was streaking so it might have been apis. I understand ceranae doesn't necessarily show signs of disentary. The thing is I treated with Fumagillin-B in the fall. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:31:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Questions and Comments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > 7) Missouri is one of the regions that still has a tracheal presence - > its > not typical of all areas of the U.S. - sorry Bob. For years I have fought tracheal mites(TM) but I am the *only* beekeeper in my area which treats for TM. If all of us treated then I would think I would have less of a problem. if you apply the same logic to nosema then I see a similar situation. I have been treating spring and fall yet I am having some nosema issues. If all beekeepers made an effort to control nosema than we would gain ground. I had the same problem for years with AFB. I controlled and others did not. My hives robbed theirs out. Same with varroa in the early years. I controlled and others did not and my bees got reinfested by robbing their weak hives. My thoughts on Washington problem: *If* N. ceranae is at the root of the 4500 hive beekeepers problems I would guess the beekeeper is one of those which have never used fumidil or just started. His hives are full of spores and he has serious issues. Simply replacing bees might not work *if* he works his bees hard. My advice if testing shows high N. ceranae spore levels in dead outs would be to take the time to use acetic acid on all dead outs. Then re stock hives. treat twice a year and use acetic acid on all dead outs. The small beekeeper can do diffferent but the above beekeepers hives will most likely come in contact with other commercial beekeepers bees which does make a difference in being able to control N. ceranae. My motto has always been: "Do it once and do it right" bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:50:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Tracheal Mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "What are the recommended treatments for tracheal mites?" I used menthol crystals before formic acid. The Menthol crystal packets are not cheap. Formic seems to work well though. In fact last spring I had a hive that was clearly suffering from TM. I put on a MiteGone pad and it cleared right up. More recently I've been using Mite Away II prefilled pads for Varroa control. The prefilled pads are more expensive but also way more convenient and the MiteGone pads are now only available in my area by mail order from MiteGone. Last I heard Bill Ruzicka was looking for someone to take over MiteGone and get maybe get it registered for use in the U.S. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:56:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit When doing acetic acid fumigation on a stack of hive bodies with comb, is it sufficient to stack on a board and use a spacer and normal cover on top or do we have to duct tape the cracks between hive bodies? Regarding drenching bees that do not take from a feeder, it seems plausible that drenching gets the medication to younger bees, bees that are not yet old enough to access a feeder. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:35:51 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Questions and Comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All I just love it when Bee-L turns to issues where folk exchange experiences and learn together. The mix of expertise and experience here, and the willingness to be open, is what makes this list great. Bob, you said: 'If all beekeepers made an effort to control nosema than we would gain ground.' I wonder. Everything I read about Nosema ceranae tells of a rampaging epidemic which pops up due to factors we don't understand and rips through apiaries and whole operations like a forest fire. Yes, sure, people have to treat to at least try to stay in business. Yes, if your neighbours keep things under control you might benefit. Yes, fumigation of comb - carefully if you're using a strong acid - may be necessary. But would coordinated treatment really hold back such an apparently virulent pathogen? It was tried here (UK) for Varroa (as most places I guess), a more slowly spreading and less virulent pest, and didn't work. The long-term solution for Varroa, simply put, is complex but includes breeding from survivors. Maybe your own survivors, or those from a local forest, or the VSH survivors that Harbo and Harris first identified, or the survivors in Primorski that were shipped to the US and developed for your queen and package industry. Same for tracheal mites - in the UK not a serious problem because our bees are descended from the survivors. If N. ceranae is such a virulent pathogen then treatment is even less likely to hold it at bay in any long-term sustainable way. Breeding from survivors has to be the key. I forget who it was, but one operation at least was mentioned which is deliberately building up again from its own survivors, and I guess that is what Dee may do from her 1/3 survivors in her affected yards which came down with something that might have the same cause (do you know Jerry?). Does anyone (I'm sure Dee has) have experience of those survivors - did they seem to survive for random reasons (eg they happened to have enough sealed brood to get through a sudden devastating wave of infection) or are there any signs that there may be genetic variation for survival traits? all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:58:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Questions and Comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree that breeding for resistance, selection of stock is the way to go - but many of our beekeepers and growers won't last long enough. Dee shows uncommon courage and perserverance in letting selection take its course. Most beekeepers and growers like to stay in business, avoid going bankrupt, want a pay check, ability to cover the mortgage. Treating for Nosema may be the only option at present to keep individual operations in business. It is a stop gap at best. I've got one colony that has made it through two waves of CCD - want to find more. We'll get these to Sue Colby, as we find them. Not sure treating comb with anything will help much. We're not recovering much Nosema from comb, we're finding it in the bees themselves. Jerry **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:27:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Questions and Comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:58:41 EDT, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > >Not sure treating comb with anything will help much. We're not recovering >much Nosema from comb, we're finding it in the bees themselves. > interesting piece of data question that comes to my mind is in the north you get some hives with dwindled cluster and heavy stains by the entrances. thick enough you can scrape it off with a tool. if a beek has a scope and can see nosema (not specific to apis or ceranae) in the poop what advice would you have before reusing the comb and equipment? simple washing of the equipment with soap and water? do nothing? or fumigate? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 20:57:03 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Questions and Comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Jerry > We're not recovering much Nosema from comb, we're finding it in the bees themselves. That seems to make sense, given that dysentery doesn't seem to be associated with N. ceranae. That smell that Dave Thompson mentioned - does that link with Nosema? Might it help early diagnosis? Bob had some kind words about scientists this side of the pond. Fortunately, we don't seem to be affected by N. ceranae in the UK on the same scale, yet, but it is here. We've also lost a lot of scientific expertise particularly in bee pathology in recent years, so we may be relying more than before on research from elsewhere. best wishes Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:21:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Questions and Comments In-Reply-To: <636593.92319.qm@web86201.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I just love it when Bee-L turns to issues where folk exchange experiences > and learn together. The mix of expertise and experience here, and the > willingness to be open, is what makes this list great. I agree! Now I am going to go into a realm I can not give the researchers name but I will give his advice. Some will recognize the advice . Because of label issues I think its best to let only me take the heat. Current advice is too treat for N. ceranae every three months. His research has shown even with label fumidil treatment N. ceranae levels are at high enough levels after three months to need a treatment. Drenching two cups four times at weekly intervals is recommended. My comments: many outfits are having troubles with N. ceranae. When asked I answer they should have seen the problem coming. N. ceranae being widespread came out in the first CCD research ( 2006/2007). Their nosema problem most likely came from almond pollination last year ( or the year before) as too soon for this year( based on the Spain research information). Many of those having troubles fed fumidil last Sept. (at the spring dose rate). By doing treatment early they cut their fall fumidil expense in half and did work to a degree with nosema apis but has not worked for n. ceranae. When going to California, Texas or Florida to winter it was common practice for those beeks to dose at the spring rate. Myself I use the winter rate for hives wintered in Missouri. I have used the spring rate for hives sent to winter in a warm area. I have went out on a limb and shared. Hope this helps. Most likely someone reading this post will think their bees are doing great and then watch hives start crashing. Get a sample and send off. If N. ceranae. then I would treat. Breeding for survivors is a good idea but most commercial beeks buy queens, packages or cells. Breeding for survivors is best left to those which are experts in the field. When they get a survivor line I will be the first to use. Right now N. ceranae is kicking some beeks butts but gradually the industry will survive N. ceranae. Working out a way to treat for N. ceranae when needed is going to be a problem for certain areas. Drenching buys time and can save some hives but not all. Drenching may be the only way to keep levels low enough to provide pollination or produce a honey crop before time to treat again. Drenching gets the antibiotic directly into the bees by the bees licking the syrup off. I have said the above to hopefully help a few beeks in trouble. Jerry and others have to be careful what they say. I am not bound by those rules and those in my circle know I only provide advice after careful thought. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:36:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring- question for M. Palmer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Micheal, May I ask the about the microscope you used? Kind, cost, what you use it for etc. I am now shopping for one for use in Nosema ,Tracheal etc and whatever other little beaasts arer out there. thanks John Horton N Alabama **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:01:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Questions and Comments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The staining of the front entrances in the spring in the north is usually indicative of Nosema apis, and nowdays, we only occassionally see this.? Nosema ceranae DOES NOT necessarily produce this symptom.? ? Even the colonies with an apparent kill from N. ceranae did not have stained fronts.? I've seen some staining, and I've heard reports of some operations this spring with this problem.? I'd suspect those are N. apis.? And, in that case, cleaning up the comb might make a difference. ? I was a bit too general in my statement - we don't see much evidence of N. ceranae in the combs. Actually, last week we finally got our first confirmed case of N. apis from the Cramer labs - so the primers are ok.? N. apis just isn't around much - certainly not like it used to be. ? Jerry **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:25:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Questions and Comments In-Reply-To: <70B965A8652743238663405F47A5B297@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: > For years I have fought tracheal mites(TM) but I am > the *only* beekeeper in > my area which treats for TM. If all of us treated > then I would think I would > have less of a problem. I was under the impression the TM problem was long solved. From my understanding, there is a belief amongst the breeders in the Northeast that TM are not a problem, and resistance is easily gained thru breeding (at least the major Northeastern breeders I have talked with told me so). I haven’t seen TM related symptoms in ferals, nor in any of my colonies (which are never treated for anyting) since about 2003, My question is, why is there a great discrepancy between those believing that resistance is easily bred, and those that believe TM must be treated for? Is one option any better than the other long term? Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Pennsylvania “In curious cells the bees digest their spoil, When vernal sunshine animates their toil“.-Meleager http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:19:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: this ones for Bob's file on corn and Imid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit this time in Italy http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2008-04-08_108198775.html **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:14:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Acetic Acid MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank>You make a stack of boxes. Use a spacer. install the acid in = >container and=20 >place, when gone you air >out the comb. How about wrapping stacks of supers with load stabilizing polywrap for a = good seal? Anyone know the acidic effects on plastic? Seems as if safe = for comb perhaps OK for wrap? A Marshall **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 08:52:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Questions and Comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob Harrison wrote: >Jerry and others have to be careful what they say. I am not bound by those rules and those in my circle know I only provide advice after careful thought. Did you think about this? It is illegal to disregard the label instructions on a registered pesticide. Each EPA registered product bears on its label the admonition: "It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling." In other words, it is illegal to use the product in any way except as instructed on the label. You must read the label or have it read to you before using any pesticide. Furthermore, you need to read all the label instructions, not just the rate of application. Then you must carefully follow all the instructions on the label. In addition, EPA sets tolerances or maximum legal limits for pesticide residues in food commodities and animal feed under the FFDCA. The purpose of the tolerance program is to ensure a reasonable certainty of no *harm to consumers from pesticide residues* in food. Besides training in pesticide use, licensed applicators must carry liability insurance in the event of property damage or personal injury from pesticide use. Unlicensed, non-certified personnel applying pesticides may have no liability insurance. Decisions about the application of pesticides on land are often shared between the pesticide applicator, the occupier of the land and a consultant who provides advice and direction on optimal pesticide application. Everyone involved in the decision-making for the use of a pesticide is responsible for ensuring proper use, and may also *share the liability* if the pesticide is misused. -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:55:09 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Acetic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Alden > Anyone know the acidic effects on plastic? In my small-scale hobbyist way, I simply dropped the brood box into a black polythene refuse sack and folded over the top, adding a roof to weight it down. The black polythene will help keep in the fumes, it might help warm the box, and it survives the experience unscathed save for the odd tear here and there. all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 03:11:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Study Looks at Anti-Cancer Effect of Propolis Component MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Study Looks at Anti-Cancer Effect of Propolis Component Evidence that the Anticarcinogenic Effect of Caffeic Acid Phenethyl Ester in the Resistant Hepatocyte Model Involves Modifications of Cytochrome P450 Toxicological Sciences, April 7, 2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/04/study-looks-at-anti-cancer-effect-of.html Abstract: Caffeic acid phenethyl ester (CAPE), a natural component of propolis, shows anti-carcinogenic properties in the modified resistant hepatocyte model when administered before initiation or promotion of hepatocarcinogenesis process; however, information about the mechanism underlying this chemoprotection is limited... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 05:29:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: tracheal revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/04/2008 23:47:54 GMT Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: I have found some N. ceranae in all my stocks and each group has had some hives crash. How do you know its Ceranae? The experienced Lab workers at the Central Science Laboratory find the 2 sorts are so similar that they check their results with a PCR device. I recently attended a microscopy workshop at which we could make slides and compare both sorts using material kindly supplied by the CSL. They look very similar indeed and, unless you had both kinds on the same slide it would be very difficult to make an accurate visual diagnosis. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 04:52:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/04/2008 13:23:40 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: ACETIC ACID POISON! DANGER! CORROSIVE. LIQUID AND MIST CAUSE SEVERE BURNS TO ALL BODY TISSUE. MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED. HARMFUL IF INHALED. INHALATION MAY CAUSE LUNG AND TOOTH DAMAGE. FLAMMABLE LIQUID AND VAPOR. Thanks for the warning, Peter. I have always bought and used it at 80%. However it is also available at 100% when it is known as 'glacial' as it isn't as runny. What would happen if a person decided to dilute glacial by adding water to it? Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 08:50:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Questions and Comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry wrote: > Not sure treating comb with anything will help much. We're not > recovering > much Nosema from comb, we're finding it in the bees themselves. There seems to be an anomaly here. We are told that most colonies that have died out from CCD have Nosema ceranae; if this is so, and these CCD colonies have no bees left, how was the Nosema ceranae detected if not from the comb? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:18:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Good bee management practice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Good bee management practice is fundamental for enhancing honey bees' natural immunity, which is the most useful tool in combating viral diseases. Stressful circumstances can favor outbreaks of viral diseases, thus any efforts that strengthen the colony health are expected to reduce the risk of virus infections. Since the varroa mite has been proven to be an effective vector in transmitting and activating viruses, timely and efficient control of the varroa mite population will reduce the incidence of viral diseases. A mathematical model proposed by Sumpter and Martin (2004) predicts that virus-associated winter collapses can be avoided if bee colonies are treated with varroacides in the summer to decrease the ABPV and DWV loads below a critical level. In addition to controlling the vector population, effective management of bee viral diseases can be achieved by maintaining good sanitation practices, feeding bees with the proper quantity and quality of food, and replacing combs and queens when the problem is serious. Honey Bee Viruses Yan Ping Chen and Reinhold Siede -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:36:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Questions and Comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Bob Harrison wrote: >>Jerry and others have to be careful what they say. I am not bound by >those rules and those in my circle know I only provide advice after >careful thought. In short, if you advise anyone to use a pesticide in a manner inconsistent with the label, you may be held liable for any harm that ensues. By the way, your recommendations are now archived at Bee-L. I would think you would more cautious about pesticides since you seem to feel they are at the root of our bee problems. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:21:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: this ones for Bob's file on corn and Imid In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All, I was made aware of the situation in Italy awhile back. The first report came from a lady beekeeper. She alerted the agriculture people to take samples. She has supplied varroa tolerant Italian queens to brown's bees (Australia) and then into the U.S. to me. I have got a shipment of her queens (crossed with Australian stock) in California right now waiting to be shipped to me on Monday. Too risky to Fed X over the weekend. I am most interested in the drones from those queens. I only say the above so those reading will realize I am very close to the problem in Italy. The reports I am getting indicate imidacloprid was found in the mid gut of her dead bees. I hope to get a copy in English of the lab results in the future. Not sure of the levels but it seems to indicate a LD 50 level. *If* so this would be a first to my knowledge. I indicated awhile back I was getting reports of a bee kill in which high amounts of neonicotinoids were found in the mid gut samples. If you monitor world beekeeping (as I do) you quickly realize the U.S. media seems to mostly focus only on U.S. beekeeping problems. Did the list know that : " it is estimated some 200,000 hives disappeared in Italy in 2007" "according to the UNAAPI, the latest disaster to hit the bees (which fell almost by half) coincided with the planting of maze crops. it said that 30-40% of hives had been affected" In my opinion many different issues are killing bees. Actually the conclusion of the U.S. CCD team. I believe the neonicotinoids are taking their share. N. Ceranae is taking its share. PPB will always take its share! I also tend to go along with Eric Mussen and think perhaps a new yet not figured out pathogen might be killing its share. It seems we might get the funding needed to research and hopefully solve much of the U.S. die off mystery. Changes are happening so fast now in beekeeping knowledge that most books are out dated even when first published. Save your 92 editions of "Hive and the Honey Bee" (1146 pages of small print) as the new edition will have to eliminate some old material to make room for the last 15-20 years of new material before the books update. My guess is the new edition might get up to 1400 pages if all the new information is included. The 92 edition is the book most commercial beekeepers rely on. Joe Graham struggled with all the information back then I am sure. The "75" edition contained 740 larger print pages. The information contained in the 92 edition was much greater than any before edition. I have read all the editions in my library and the 92 edition twice. I love to read but the internet now is a better resource in many ways than bee books. Also makes the world a much smaller place! I have make beekeeper contacts in all countries from my participation on BEE-L and other lists. Sincerely, Bob Harrison > this time in Italy > > http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2008-04-08_108198775.html > > **************************************************** > * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * > * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * > **************************************************** **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:34:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Bees not Taking Syrup in Spring- question for M. Palmer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit John Horton asked: “May I ask the about the microscope you used?” John, check out Randy Oliver’s article in the Jan. issue of ABJ or go to his web site. The articles are usually posted there. Great advice in there about buying microscopes. Then go on ebay and look up binocular microscopes. There are a ton of them there. I am also looking for one that is good that I can afford. Good luck. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:54:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Questions and Comments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In short, if you advise anyone to use a pesticide in a manner inconsistent > with the label, you may be held liable for any harm that ensues. >From drenching bees with syrup with fumidil mixed in? ( Eric Mussen) Acetic acid fumigation was discussed at the National bee meeting "nosema seminar" by the USDA-ARS . I have got the CD Peter. Beekeeping is a very small industry. Dave hackenberg statement from the National convention: " There are only around 1200 commercial beekeepers. Not enough people to even hold an election in a small town" Getting label changes and things registered is simply not possible many times plus time is usually of concern. To stay legal I approach my local vet for authorization to use a product to control a problem concerning an antibiotic or even parasites. I raise some exotic livestock ( sort of long time hobby/business) for which there is not registered label products. He sells me the antibiotics and parasite meds I need. Which he has the power to do. By the way, > your recommendations are now archived at Bee-L. I hope they are and hope other beeks find the information useful! I would think you would more > cautious about pesticides since you seem to feel they are at the root of > our > bee problems. Pesticides have always caused the commercial beekeeper problems but are not the sole cause of CCD. Nor is N. ceranae in my opinion. Only parts of a complicated picture. Sincerely, Bob Harrison **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:41:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob said (re acetic): I would not want to not handle properly myself but what other > choice does the larger beekeeper have? Bob, I'd seriously consider renting a commercial ozone generator--the kind used to sterilize houses with mold damage. If you have an airtight fumigation room, should be safer, quicker, and cheaper than acetic. Limited data suggest that it will work, but I have not yet tested. > CCD (whatever CCD is?) has turned up many problems in our bees. I suggest > beekeepers forget about waiting for the single cause and start working on > solving the problems the CCD team has already found wrong in our bees. I am! Seconded! Bob, this is something that we all admire about you--that you are of survivor mentality. You face problems head on, make a decision, and go with it. You don't paralyze yourself worrying if you are completely correct. IMHO, this is what makes successful beekeepers successful--you accept that we don't know all the answers, and just use your good sense to make management decisions. As long as you don't contaminate your equipment (or hurt anyone), you can always change your mind later. I don't know of any successful beekeeper who doesn't learn and change each year. I've made dumb mistakes, and made decisions that seemed poor in retrospect, hundreds of times. My feeling is that as long as I learn from them, and don't make the same mistake twice (OK, not more than three times), that I'm doing OK. If everyone on this List did things exactly the same, no one would learn much. The best thing is for us all to educate ourselves as best possible with what *is* known (e.g., my literature reviews), and try various solutions. Then share what we learn. The next few years are going to be a learning experience for us all, what with N ceranae, new pesticides, mite resistance to miticides, and viral mutations. As Bob points out, we can no longer turn to "the books" for the answers. These are truly "interesting" and challenging times in beekeeping. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:38:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Questions and Comments In-Reply-To: <00cd01c89c71$e70c4e40$0200a8c0@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry wrote: > Not sure treating comb with anything will help much. We're not > recovering > much Nosema from comb, we're finding it in the bees themselves. I've wondered this myself. The larger implications now deal with reusing (or destroying) comb from supposedly infected hives, even if Nosema c. cannot, or is not, detected. Grant Jackson, MO __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 06:45:30 -0700 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew Shepherd (Xerces Society)" Subject: Deadly bacteria? -- thank you Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to everyone who responded to my posting of the article about western= Washington bee losses. N.ceranae makes far more sense than a new bacteria= as the cause of these loses. Matthew PS. Jerry, it was the reported, not me, that said bacteria. I merely copied= and pasted the article into my email. ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society for Invertebrate Conservation The Xerces Society is an international nonprofit organization that protects wildlife through the conservation of invertebrates and their habitat. To join the Society, make a contribution, or read about our work, please visit www.xerces.org. Matthew Shepherd Senior Conservation Associate 4828 SE Hawthorne Boulevard, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Cell: 503-807 1577 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 08:00:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Questions and Comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: >Pesticides have always caused the commercial beekeeper problems but are not >the sole cause of CCD. Nor is N. ceranae in my opinion. Only parts of a >complicated picture. > Bee geneticists believe genetic diversity is key to deal with the myriad disease and pest pressures of honeybees in this country. Experts believe bees have a very weak immune system, and a wide assortment of enemies - Varroa and tracheal mites, viruses, a new strain of a disease known as Nosema ceranae, and now colony collapse - have all taken a toll. Cobey has tried to get the necessary USDA permits for years to import bee DNA from Europe, but her efforts have "bogged down in incredible bureaucracy." SEE: Honeybee act needs changes to help researchers Capital Press Agriculture Weekly http://tinyurl.com/6xodc9 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 04:47:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Invitation to Join New Apitherapy Discussion Forum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Invitation to Join New Apitherapy Discussion Forum The list currently has more than 500 members living in at least 50 different countries. http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/04/invitation-to-join-new-apitherapy.html **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 04:44:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Faster, Simpler Method for Quality Control of Royal Jelly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Faster, Simpler Method for Quality Control of Royal Jelly Refractometric Determination of Water Content in Royal Jelly Apidologie 39 (2008) 225-232 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/04/faster-simpler-method-for-quality.html Abstract - A correlation was found between the measured refraction index of royal jelly and its water content as determined by vacuum oven drying... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 06:17:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: first Florida fatality In-Reply-To: <265874.61332.qm@web31604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, http://www.sun-sentinal.com/news/loc...,3595607.story On another list beekeepers point out the person was allergic and in further tests some of the bees tested European ( I have not confirmed this with Florida). However I think this is a tragic situation for the mans family. A huge PR problem and could place further restrictions on Florida beekeeping in the area. The area is rural but an area in which many beekeepers I am friends with winter bees. The Kennedys from Georgia which had a load turned for a single dead small hive beetle (after me watching the Florida inspection service do the Spam test with no success and all hives cleaned and placed on new pallets to avoid a border problem) winter in the Florida area of the incident. Smart beekeepers realize trying to somehow place the blame on the person stung in this case is not a sound plan. Kind of like saying the women raped brought on the rape. Public awareness (like Jerry Hayes is doing) and a plan to get bees quickly removed (possibly with Florida State funding with a simple call to the state) is the best solution. Florida being a tourist state will not let stories of bee problems or shark attacks make front page news. If the back hoe driver had been able to make a quick call to get the bees removed then *if* he knew the bees were in the trailer the right person could have removed before the demolition began. Problem solved. Kind of like the program 1-800 Dig rite. The call before you dig program has saved many lives. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 10:49:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Dave Cushman In-Reply-To: <512704.15164.qm@web57701.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Many thanks for all the good will messages, it was a very humbling experience and I thank you all again for taking the trouble to try and raise my spirits. My recovery will take some time, but I will be monitoring this list and many others during the recovery process. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://www.dave-cushman.net (http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman) Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.01/2.01 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 05:02:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Questions and Comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/04/2008 21:05:56 GMT Standard Time, BeeResearch@AOL.COM writes: Not sure treating comb with anything will help much. We're not recovering much Nosema from comb, we're finding it in the bees themselves. How, then, is it transmitted from bee to bee? Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:15:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: tracheal revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote about nosemas: > They look very similar indeed and, unless you had both kinds on the > same slide it would be very difficult to make an accurate visual > diagnosis. Were you able to measure the spores? Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:12:55 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Questions and Comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry wrote: > Not sure treating comb with anything will help much. We're not > recovering much Nosema from comb, we're finding it in the bees themselves. Thinking about what Jerry wrote I would think that it does not say that combs cannot be a source of infection. I note that Jerry said "not recovering much Nosema". Does this mean that these small amounts are enough to start an "infection"? If these combs are not the source of the "infection" where would it come from? Does it mean there are always enough bees in the hive with the spores to have it flare up at the opportune time? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:01:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:41:28 -0700, randy oliver wrote: >The next few years are going to be a learning experience for us all, >what with N ceranae, new pesticides, mite resistance to miticides, and >viral mutations. As Bob points out, we can no longer turn to "the >books" for the answers. > >These are truly "interesting" and challenging times in beekeeping. > i agree, and for those who can keep their bees healthy, hopefully good economic times too with higher honey and pollination prices. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:06:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andrew Johnston Subject: Ozone Generators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone point me to information that says that ozone kills Nosema spores and how much and for how long Regards Andrew Johnston **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:02:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Questions and Comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter CCD colonies are not necessarily completely dead - remember, we usually see a queen and a small cluster of young bees. Typically, in a given bee yard, we see a few strong colonies, some moderate colonies - both of which visually look to be ok. Then we see failing CCD colonies - a queen, mostly young bees, an excess of brood (at the time of year when queen's are laying - often 2-4 frames with some beew). We also see some collapsed colonies (queen and small retinue of very young bees - barely cover 1/2 of one frame), and a few empty boxes. Over a period of a few weeks, we usually see more failing and collapsed colonies in a yard, with CCD sometimes taking out every colony, but more often, taking out 50-80% of the colonies within a beeyard or holding yard. In large holding yards, we've seen it start at one end and roll through to the other end like a wave. This past fall/winter/spring, we've seen a higher percentage of empty boxes (even the queen is gone). Remember also, I don't necessarily think Nosema and CCD are the same. The one case that I saw that looks like the classic Nosema ceranae kills reported by the Spanish had dead bees with lots of Nosema in them. Jerry **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:21:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: liability for advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: ..., if you advise anyone to use a pesticide in a manner inconsistent with the label, you may be held liable for any harm that ensues. Peter is correct about this. Those of us who are employed by universities or gov agencies have double jeopardy - we can be summarily dismissed for giving this type of advise, regardless of whether anyone holds us liable. Self-employed beekeepers can be held to be liable, but unless they fire themselves, they won't lose their jobs over distributing advise that is inconsistent with a pesticide label. Drenching bees with syrup with fumidil mixed would not seem to pose much risk, since the label permits feeding, but I know that Eric Mussen can not tell any of you to do this, nor can I. Best that Eric and I can do is to report what's public knowledge - the Spanish have been drenching bees that won't take syrup. We can not advise you to do this unless we can find it on the label of a product that is labeled for use in the U.S. Bob said: "Acetic acid fumigation was discussed at the National bee meeting "nosema seminar" by the USDA-ARS . I have got the CD. " Discussing the results of experiments to test whether irradiating or fumigating combs helps IS NOT the same as advising people to do this. The only way that we as researchers can use off label products is to conduct research on colonies THAT are not used for honey production. That's the reason I haven't owned an extractor for the past 30+ years. So, folks like Bob take a risk any time that they give advise that is inconsistent with a label. He may not fire himself for this behavior, but his risk of being sued if anything goes wrong is just as great, and his risk of losing if this goes to litigation may be even greater than ours. Remember, most universities and gov agencies have on staff legal council, with specialists in handling cases like this. Most beekeepers don't have access to staff lawyers. Jerry Jerry **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:32:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Drawing comb (was RQR) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry I don't check my email often enough. They have this marvelous device called an extractor, Q breeders have used it for years to recycle stored "sugar-honey", that they re-dilute, lessening the investment in sugar and maintaining a "heavy flow" for their "finishers" etc. The major difference being they reuse the drawn comb repeatedly, rather than foundation, and convert less sugar into wax BTY, unless you are using high fructose corn syrup, you better not wait too long to extract the new comb and get them "dried" up. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:40:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Plaisted Subject: Re: Questions and Comments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Then we see failing CCD colonies - a queen, mostly young bees, an excess o= f brood (at the time of year when queen's are laying - often 2-4 frames wit= h some beew)." =20 Has any effort been made to save these colonies, and has it been successful= ? It would seem that if placed into clean equipment, perhaps these could b= e saved? =20 Jim =20 =20 http://www.northernqueens.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM= _WL_Refresh_messenger_video_042008= **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:02:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: load of packages lost Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A load of aprox 2000 3# packages from OHbees got hung up in South Dakota with a mechanical problem as an unusual late winter weather system passed through. Somehow the driver continued to Mn before discovering the whole load was dead. Spring is finally coming to the Northland this week after a rough 2 weeks of April which finds us today with every lake in our state frozen over from IA to Canada, a possible record this late. Stationary colonies which survived winter have only had 2-3 days of pollen foraging so far and colonies have little brood for this time of the year. Reports vary greatly across the region with the big losses 50-80% appearing to be in SE Mn and Wisconsin. The high losses appear to be in an area that had record snowfall over winter close to 100 inches. Here in the NW 2/3's of Mn we had minimal to average snow and a dry cold winter. I wonder if the wet conditions east of here contributed to Nosema (A. or C.) outbreaks? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 08:56:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bman140 Subject: Re: Dave Cushman In-Reply-To: <4801D723.4010606@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You're very welcome & WELCOME BACK. Sometimes when One is down, a word from friends afar is better than a shot in the backside from a pretty nurse. And by the way, it was no trouble atall Ed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:55:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Peter_Dight?= Subject: Re: Questions and Comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Jerry wrote > In large holding yards, we've seen it (CCD) start > at one end and roll through to the other end > like a wave. Does this not suggest CCD is caused by a disease or parasite spread from colony to colony by drift, rather than through an external environmental event such as a pesticide poisoning? Peter Cambridge UK **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 10:28:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Ozone Generators In-Reply-To: <4801BF06.2060201@waitrose.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Can anyone point me to information that says that ozone kills Nosema spores > and how much and for how long Hi Andrew, to the best of my knowledge, there have been no trials, and I've been too swamped to do one. However, I have done extensive research into ozone disinfection, and spoken to researchers who have used it for other purposes. Here is some basic info: You can smell ozone at .05ppm. This concentation will sterilize air, and is at the top of the safe range to breathe. Strong sterilization is at 10-20ppm, although some recommendations are in the 40ppm range, or even higher. These levels are said to kill "everything." Efficacy is dependent upon temperature, amount of reactive organic matter, humidity, and duration of treatment. Too much or too little humidity decrease efficacy. Unfortunately, good ozone monitors are expensive. Check out http://www.ozonesupplies.com/Ozone_Monitors.html?gclid=CIHdz5XH2JICFScxiQodoBGU5w for some inexpensive testers. The test of the treatment would be to take smears of nosema spores on glass slides, expose them to ozone in the chamber, then feed them to bees and see if the bees become infected. Of course you would run controls. My guess is that if you could kill all mold spores, you'd be killing nosema spores. If anyone has access to a commercial ozone generator, suitable for killing mold, I would be happy to work with you. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:51:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Dave Cushman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gwt well wishes to my friend Dave, the 'Apiarian Laureate'! Welcome back! Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 14:44:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Ozone Generators Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy Oliver: “The test of the treatment would be to take smears of nosema spores on glass slides, expose them to ozone in the chamber, then feed them to bees and see if the bees become infected.” Is there no way to grow Nosema in culture? Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:19:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Questions and Comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Dight wrote: >Does this not suggest CCD is caused by a disease or parasite spread from >colony to colony by drift, rather than through an external environmental >event such as a pesticide poisoning? It is very difficult to pin down cause and effect in such cases as these. Almost everyone thinks the honey bee population is "immune compromised" on the whole. Just what caused that is in dispute, but even so, given a weakened immunity the bees could be much more susceptible to just about any pathogen. But then, the final knockout is not the "cause" but the agent of final demise. That's why we are calling it a "syndrome" -- which may have its root: 1) weakness due to sublethal pesticide doses; 2) weakened immune response caused by varroa parasitism; 3) narrowing of the gene pool = inbreeding = lack of viability; 4) your pet theory here. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:49:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Ozone Generators In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Is there no way to grow Nosema in culture? This has been a problem for researchers. As far as I know, it must be grown in living cells. In this case, gut cells of bees or other insects. Cell culture is more difficult than the simple bioassay. Besides, it is the bioassay in live bees that we are really interested in. Randy **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 16:45:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Peter_Dight?= Subject: Re: Questions and Comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PB Wrote It is very difficult to pin down cause and effect in such cases as these. Almost everyone thinks the honey bee population is "immune compromised" on the whole. Just what caused that is in dispute, but even so, given a weakened immunity the bees could be much more susceptible to just about any pathogen. But then, the final knockout is not the "cause" but the agent of final demise. OK then, what was the agent of final demise in these "wave across yard" losses? The wave effect suggests something that travels from one hive to the next. To be discernable as a wave it is unlikely to a wind born, which to my mind leaves bees drifting. Whatever the vector of their demise if it is carried by drifters it should be detectable, either parasite or disease? All the colonies will share the symptoms of the final agent, even if losses elsewhere, that are attributed to CCD, do not share those symptoms! How big are the holding apiaries where these 'waves' have been noticed and over what time scale does the wave advance I wonder? Peter Cambridge UK **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 17:28:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Dead Bee Trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There may be as many as 50,000 bees in a hive at the height of the season, we are told. They are all mortal, but generally we don't see many of the bodies. Many will have been snapped up by predators, many will have succumbed to old age and infirmity in the field and not make it back; others will feel death approaching and take themselves as far away from the hive as they can to die, taking any infection with them. Those that do die in the hive are removed by their sisters acting as undertakers, sometimes acting by teamwork to remove bodies. The Devon Apicultural Research Group, (DARG) is planning this coming winter to arrange for its members to treat pairs of hives matching as well as possible, one with an oxalic acid solution and the other with a placebo, in a blind test. We shall have for the previous month monitored for a 'normal' body count to obtain a weekly average. From the date of application for 10 days we shall do a daily count and then for the next month revert to weekly monitoring. The objective is to discover the extent to which bee mortality is accelerated by the application of oxalic acid solution. What we need before the start of the experiment is a good design for a dead bee trap that will prevent bees that die in the hive from being removed by their sisters. Does anybody have such a design that we could use? It would be helpful also to have an idea of its efficiency. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 18:50:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: tracheal revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 13/04/2008 15:16:56 GMT Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: Were you able to measure the spores? No. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 01:49:22 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Questions and Comments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "To be discernable as a wave it is unlikely to a wind born, which to my mind leaves bees drifting." Or beekeepers intervention spreading the malady within the feeding or with the hands, hive tool or swithching frames, etc ... -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 21:07:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Tracheal Mites In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:50 AM 4/11/2008, you wrote: >"What are the recommended treatments for tracheal mites?" Breeding works pretty well. Not always perfect, but better than menthol crystals or grease patties. Mike **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 22:08:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: Ozone Generators Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ozone does a number on rubber, so don't generate ozone in s space you use to store lids with rubber seals (Plastisol?). Also, computers, stereos and other valuable appliances can have important rubber components. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 23:00:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: liability for advice In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > Discussing the results of experiments to test whether irradiating or > fumigating combs helps IS NOT the same as advising people to do this. Have you heard the CDs? > So, folks like Bob take a risk any time that they give advise that is > inconsistent with a label. Despite what I have said on BEE-I and learned from the folks at the National convention ( also other beekeepers) *if* a beekeeper would purchase a container of acetic acid the container would have a label. The person is required by law to read the label. *if* they then decided to use in any other manner then how could they find me liable? This has been discussed on another list but not to my knowledge on BEE-L. The same holds true for methods about other off label methods talked about. The law is the applicator has to read the label. then follow the label. very crude example: If a beekeeper at a convention said acetic acid was safe to drink and the beekeeper went home and drank a glass without reading the label then the drinker of the acetic acid has know one to blame but himself as he broke two rules. he did not read the label and he did not follow the label. I understand what you are trying to say Jerry but I think I have approached the subject very carefully. I approached my ABJ neonicotinoid article the same way. A waste basket full of rejects before the final copy. As research becomes available to support my thoughts then the next article will point a stronger finger in a certain direction. I have finished rereading The Pollinator Protection Handbook of Johansen & Mayer. I am going to ask my friend Dr. Conner about another edition with the new neonicotinoid information. The book was well done but I read many things which were believed back then which have since been proven wrong about the effects of Temik, fluvalinate and coumaphos. I was going to list some points but the list is long. However here are the pages I found the most interesting, 42, 52, 76, 79, 84, 88, 94,96, and 97 for those with a copy. I took notes but am too tired tonight ( have been out of state) to post my comments for the list. The authors did an excellent job of presenting what was known back then. Busy week ahead! Truck loaded for making splits and queens in Tuesday. Unloading bees from Texas on Thursday. I think I have got another hernia from lifting a heavy commercial battery out of a loader. So I think I am going to finally retire from commercial beekeeping. Will be my third hernia in the same area. This is my 48 the year in beekeeping. I love beekeeping but have never been able to simply sit in an office and give orders. also: I expressed warnings in my posts concerning acetic acid use (which were not expressed about the use at the national convention) and talked about a face shield, rubber boots, gloves , respirator and full chemical suit. I stand behind what I posted in order to possibly help my fellow beekeepers. Those on the list which were at the nosema seminar or have purchased the 3 CD set will say the people doing the seminar did not explain the hazards of acetic acid like I have done here. I agree with Peter & Bee Quick that acetic acid fumigation might not be the best method for all beekeepers. If you go to www.conferencerecording.com you can order the 3 Nosema seminar CD set NBC98-317 >From the label Nosema Seminar: "Dealing with the new nosema ceranae" Drs. Eric Mussen, Stephen Pernal, Judy Chen, Mariano Higes Excellent information in my opinion and I thank all the presenters for sharing information! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:20:19 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: tracheal revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote that the group had not measured the nosema spores. I am wondering if this might be a way forward. N. ceranae spores are 4.7 +/- 0.46 microns in length (Fries 1996), whereas N. apis is approx 1 micron longer. Apparently there is only a slight overlap, so measuring a number (define?) of spores should be a reliable method of diagnosis. A simple graticule in the eyepiece of a compound microscope (1000x would probably be better than 400x) should be all that is needed. Comments? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:14:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Questions and Comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 13/04/2008 17:21:58 GMT Standard Time, pdight@AOL.COM writes: Does this not suggest CCD is caused by a disease or parasite spread from colony to colony by drift, Another project DARG members will be undertaking this summer is worker marking and one of the things to be recorded is the orientation of the hives in which drifting workers appear compared to the home hive. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:58:21 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Dead Bee Trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote > What we need before the start of the experiment is a good design for a > dead > bee trap that will prevent bees that die in the hive from being removed by > their sisters. Does anybody have such a design that we could use? It > would be > helpful also to have an idea of its efficiency. A design for a dead bee trap is to make a compartment that fits over the front of the hive. Galvanised metal is best. The one that we used when I worked for the Department of Primary Industries was the width of the front of the box (16 inches) about 8 inches tall and about 20 inches back as we covered the top with a queen excluder. It was punched metal excluder with wooden cleats about 3/8 inch thick around the edge. This was so it could slide in and out a rebate at the top. Towards the bottom of the trap, there was a baffle which was at 45 degrees to the top. The idea was that the bees came out of the entrance with the dead bee but could not fit it through the excluder. The dead bee was then dropped and it slide down the baffle at the bottom. It was 45 degrees so the bees could not easily see the dead bees. Under the baffle was a tray, into which the bees fell, which was accessed from the front. A few tricks with setting the hives up. If you have the hives in a group, you need to do all the hives with dead bee traps. If not, the bees do not like going in and out of the dead bee trap and so drift to the hives without the dead bee trap. If you have to set up a hive without the dead bee trap, it needs to be many yards away so that it will not attract those drifting bees. Also it was best for us to face the entrance to the north. So in the northern hemisphere you would need to face it south. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 01:14:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: liability for advice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well I for one cannot fault Bob for sharing information on treatment of Nosema ceranae even if it comes to us as off label advice. I kind of doubt there is much chance of his ever getting sued for what he said here on Bee-L. On the other hand if it comes down to having to follow that advice in order to keep my bees alive I am pretty sure I would have to let beekeeping go for a while, at least until a better solution arrives or a resistance to Nosema ceranae is established in honeybees. Aside from the expense and work of all that treating with Fumagillin or Fumadil, it seems pretty likely that some of it would eventually wind up in the honey. Good clean honey, the wonderful, sweet product of nature is what I am after, and hold the antibiotics please. If I have to, I will treat according to the label in the fall when I am really sure the stuff won’t be around when the blackberries come into bloom. If that doesn't work well I guess I'm out of luck. I treated in the fall without knowing if I had any problem. Before I treat again I will get that microscope and test my bees. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 04:58:22 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: CCD theory? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi all, i was reading jery hayes's classroom column to my wife (my wife as of yesterday), and she had an interesting idea that i have not heard discussed. jerry was describing how beebread is made (by fermenting the inside of the pollen grain via 20+ different yeasts and other microorganisms to break open the silica shell). there has been discussion of poor nutrition as a possible contributing factor to CCD..but what about this? is it possible that fluvalinate, coumaphos, antibiotics, or other treatment ("shop towel" or otherwise)...or a combination of these, is killing the microogranisms or otherwise affecting the action of these processes? that the transformation of pollen into beebread is somehow inhibited? with 20+ organisms involved in this process, and the numerous treatments being used, it seems a pretty good (albeit untested) theory to me...any thoughts? jerry? others???? deknow (and ramona) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 23:37:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Tracheal Mites In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>"What are the recommended treatments for tracheal mites?" I have used and before posted on BEE-L the method the USDA_ARS came up with using canola oil/menthol and shop towels. A legal method which is described in the 1997 or 1999 Feb. ABJ. Not sure of the year but believe 1997 but I am sure of the month. I have done tests before and after the method. The cost is about fifty cents a hive. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 06:36:36 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: liability for advice In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Acetic Acid (AA) is very strong and one should use all the protection. But after using at least 100 litres in the past year without any protection what so ever I can say I am still with no problem. I have put lots of OASIS pads soaked in AA in a 21 square meters "gas chamber" for sterilizing equipment (app 1200 supers) and have pour it in the feeding tanks. And no problems up to the present time. Rigth, it is not pleasant not to breath for a while and I am thinking all the time not to stick my nose in there. I also have plenty of running water close to wash my hands and face after using it. I must admidt that I love vinegar smell :) After all this experimentation and reading lots about the theme I am not really sure fumigation works if the frames have honey or pollen stored. I think the whole method is tougth for empty frames (empty cells really). I believe it works on the surface and won`t get "into" the honey or pass the wax cap. What do the rest think? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 22:17:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Ozone Generators In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Ozone does a number on rubber, I forgot to mention. Also does a number on plastic frames, according to Dr Joe Carson. I live in a high ozone area, and rubber and plastic fall apart quickly. Unfortunately, nosema can still flourish. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:50:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: liability for advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Juanse wrote: > I have put lots of OASIS pads soaked in AA in a 21 square meters "gas > chamber" for sterilizing equipment (app 1200 supers) and have pour it in > the > feeding tanks. And no problems up to the present time. > > Rigth, it is not pleasant not to breath for a while ... What is the strength (%) of the acid you are using? I cannot see how you could use 80% indoors without breathing apparatus! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:35:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Questions and Comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote: > Another project DARG members will be undertaking this summer is worker > marking and one of the things to be recorded is the orientation of the > hives in > which drifting workers appear compared to the home hive. You might want to check with the NBU first - they did work on drifting workers back in the days when they were based at Stratford-upon-Avon. The research was done, I think, just before varroa arrived here and they were interested to see how far workers would drift. As I recall, workers from a marked hive turned up in hives all over the district! David Wilkinson would have been around at the time and may well have relevant data. Stephen Martin said in a recent talk that 30% of the bees in any hive are from other hives - and he may well have details of the research that gave that figure. Might save DARG some effort that could be better employed elsewhere. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:27:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: liability for advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steve wrote: > If I have to, I will treat according to the > label in the fall when I am really sure the stuff won’t be around when the > blackberries come into bloom. If that doesn't work well I guess I'm out > of > luck. Seems we are all out of luck here, as research seems to show that autumn treatment with Fumidil does not control ceranae. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 04:00:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Propolis 'Fingerprint" Helps Determine Geographical Origin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Propolis 'Fingerprint" Helps Determine Geographical Origin Geographical Traceability of Propolis by High-Performance Liquid-Chromatography Fingerprints Food Chemistry, Volume 108, Issue 2, 15 May 2008, Pages 749-759 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/04/propolis-fingerprint-helps-determine.html Abstract: A rapid fingerprint method was developed for investigating and inferring geographical origin of Chinese propolis by using high performance liquid chromatography-ultraviolet detection (HPLC-UV)... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 20:05:35 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > he would have seen that the recommended dose for use in the > U.K. is 150 ml for a Langstroth box. Yes a single box. I saw what was posted, I am asking for sources, as the numbers are massively inconsistent with each other. They can't all be right. > Also the beekeepers in Chile have found they can use 200ml and treat > up to 8 boxes. The USDA-ARS said 150ml will treat up to 5 deeps. I'll restate the question in light of the ideal gas law and the law of partial pressures: All things being equal, the volume of 1, 5, and 8 deeps is a big variation in volume (5x or 8x) as compared to a range of liquid said to be 150 ml to 200 ml (1.33x). You only get so much gas out of any specific volume of liquid. >From any specific volume of liquid you get the SAME volume of gas every time, assuming equal temperature and pressure. Given that there isn't going to be much variation in temperature or air pressure for the case of comb being treated with acetic acid fumes, something's amiss in the numbers being tossed about. Is the difference here the difference between vaporizing the acetic via passive means at ambient temperature versus pouring it onto a pre-heated surface, as is done when fumigating fruits and veggies with acetic acid? There is a specific "parts per million" of acetic acid fumes in air that is going to kill Nosema spores, and the law of partial pressures and the ideal gas law are not subject to much debate these days. > I have splashed battery acid (around 35% sulphuric acid) on my > skin and washed it off with no ill effects; I would not want to > try it with 80% (or higher) acetic which I understand will strip > skin off in seconds. Nowhere near that scary to skin. Get some in a cut, and it will sting like the dickens. Get some in your eye, and you'll likely be posing for Hathaway Shirt ads: http://money.cnn.com/1999/07/21/companies/ogilvy/1ad2.jpg But you can apply 99% acetic acid directly to a finger, like I just did, and let it sit there until it evaporates, and you will feel no pain at all. (I get my acetic at B&H Photo.) In the interest of science, I took some turkey from my sandwich Friday, weighed out 5 grams, and immersed it 20 ml of 99% glacial acetic acid, enough to cover the turkey. I may have inadvertently invented turkey-flavor pickles, but as of Sunday night, there is no apparent "eating away" of the turkey in over 48 hours of immersion. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:57:45 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bee-Quick Subject: Re: liability for advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I approached my ABJ neonicotinoid article the same way. > As research becomes available to support my thoughts then > the next article will point a stronger finger in a certain direction. What indications do you have that Neonicotinoids have been anything more than a convenient scapegoat? To date, the results have been pretty succinct in terms of exonerating the pesticide from having anything to do with CCD. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:58:11 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: liability for advice In-Reply-To: <00b501c89e25$ae8f61f0$0200a8c0@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Peter The AA I use is 90%. And as said it is not pleasant not to breath for a while ... I put the oasis pads (no breath) run out ... breath, run in (not breath) and so on and so for, for a while. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:05:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Questions and Comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Drifting obviously occurs if the hives are all oriented in the same direction, in lines, with little marking, and is especially bad if a cross wind tends to blow acoss the hives. The end boxes will increase in numbers. That's the traditional description of drifting. Some years ago, we fitted a colonies with bi-directional counters and found another form of 'drifting'. It also occurred when abandoned bees (such as would blow off a semi going down a highway) found new homes in a nearby apiary. Within any beeyard are colonies that attract bees other than their own. They can be ANY place within the yard. Each day they have a higher number of bees coming into the hive than left (percent return rate is 1-5% higher than for their neighbors. In the same yard, some other colonies regularly lose a small percentage of bees each day, compared to their neighbors. When we released marked bees in 4 compass directions from the center of a test beeyard (the released bees came from another bee operation miles away), we found that many of these bees, from all 4 directions, found the apiary, and most of these bees went to the same colonies - which were often deep in the yard, Not on the margins. Whether this is 'drift' in the normal sense is a semantics question. But it does happen, and most beekeepers are unaware of it - except for the observation that in any beeyard there are always a few super achieving colonies and a few laggards. From our counter data, the over achievers collect bees from their neighbors. The others lose bees each day, presumably to the the better colonies. Jerry **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:08:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: kar Subject: diluting acid In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Careful with concentrated acids! Adding water to a concentrated acid can cause violent reactions - and with some acids, quite explosive results. Always pour concentrated acid into the water if you want to dilute it, even when making an 80% solution from a 100%. Diluting acids usually creates heat, so make sure you are diluting into something that is heat-safe. Kurt On Apr 13, 2008, at 12:00 AM, BEE-L automatic digest system wrote: > > Thanks for the warning, Peter. I have always bought and used it > at 80%. > However it is also available at 100% when it is known as 'glacial' > as it isn't > as runny. What would happen if a person decided to dilute glacial > by adding > water to it? > > Chris > **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:34:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation In-Reply-To: <000301c89dc3$43eb8070$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > But you can apply 99% acetic acid directly to a finger, like > I just did, and let it sit there until it evaporates, and > you will feel no pain at all. (I get my acetic at B&H Photo.) Glacial Acetic acid is used to remove plantar warts, but it takes a looooong time. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:50:07 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: CCD theory? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > is it possible that fluvalinate, coumaphos, antibiotics, or > other treatment ("shop towel" or otherwise)...or a combination > of these, is killing the microogranisms or otherwise affecting > the action of these processes? that the transformation of > pollen into beebread is somehow inhibited? This would not explain CCD, as a number of beekeepers who use no treatments at all who have had significant CCD losses (or, more to the point, CCD-like symptoms). The important point is that the only things that CCD has consistently correlated to has been the simultaneous combination of all of: 1) Nosema apis 2) Nosema ceranae 3) Kashmir bee virus 4) Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus (The above is not my opinion, this is the current "for publication" consensus. I personally find the inclusion of IAPV in the list to be a gratuitous attempt to save face on the part of those who made such a premature fuss about it last September.) One the other hand, researchers in Spain are claiming that they can reproduce all the "CCD Symptoms" with nothing but the deliberate introduction of Nosema ceranae. If you look at the list above, you'll note that the only "new" item is the Nosema ceranae. Everything else, we've had for quite some time. So we still don't have a cause. On the other hand, we've had varroa for over 20 years now, and the "solutions" are getting less and less attractive in terms of the labor required to implement them. I suspect that there is a whole lot of experimentation going on with oxalic acid dribbling, as so many people are interested in gathering research data to assist with the approval process. Yep, its all for science. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:34:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Weller Subject: Re: acetic acid fumigation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Glacial Acetic acid is used to remove plantar warts, but it takes a > looooong time. > > Bill Truesdell Bill, nitric works better on warts, but requires several applications. Walter Weller **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:25:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: tracheal revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 14/04/2008 09:46:49 GMT Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: Apparently there is only a slight overlap, so measuring a number (define?) of spores should be a reliable method of diagnosis. They don't always lie flat and so can give a foreshortened image. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:52:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: liability for advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Juanse wrote: >... I put the oasis pads (no breath) run out ... breath, run in (not > breath) and so on and so for, for a while. Thank you for the wonderful description. I hope you do not fall - or you may never run out again! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:51:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: liability for advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 14/04/2008 15:39:10 GMT Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: Rigth, it is not pleasant not to breath for a while ... If you have noticed then it has already damaged your lungs and tissues! Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:59:09 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Tracheal Mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike, >>Breeding works pretty well. Not always perfect, but better than menthol crystals or grease patties. What breeding stock to you recommend using or adding to your population? I think the Russians are supposed to be the most t.m. resistant but are there others? Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:09:19 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Are there tracheal mites in the UK and continental Europe? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The above questions is for the folks in Europe. If you folks have tracheal mites, are your bees resistant or do you treat? If you treat, how do you treat? Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:03:06 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Tracheal Mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I have used and before posted on BEE-L the method the USDA_ARS came up with using canola oil/menthol and shop towels. A legal method... Bob, Do you still use this method or has your breeding/selection process made it unnecessary? Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************