From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:10:11 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DB5B4908D for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y76017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0805B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 268940 Lines: 5672 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:21:37 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: African bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter, Who has seen my bees personally and said they were africanized? As I don't know of any coming and saying such? Also, having been to many commercial yards with straight ripping and splitting with no smoke being used, I have repeatedly seen much worse going on. Other times of year I use smoker so they don't fly so much, but during fast split and roll thru yards, for key work in spring I don't hardly smoke, for I don't want to lose the nurse bees in doing what I gotta do.Here the fast rip is needed for control of nurse bees. Other then that, from what you say here.......question: YOu are commercial aren't you for working in larger yards? Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 02:38:35 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Would Formic Acid Treatments Reduce Nosema Spore Counts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst said: > But then, we all don't have African bees now, do we? An email > acquaintance wrote to me, upon watching the video of Lusby bees: > "Those bees are just like I remember them from my visit with the > Lusbys. I don't think you'd need an analysis to see if they're AHB's. > One encounter and you'd know by experience." I really must object. The comments above are both hearsay and utterly subjective. Such groundless accusations are unacceptable. A more objective approach would be to ask Jerry Hayes, the Florida State Apiarist, for the results of their genetic testing of the marked queens (and the progeny thereof) shipped by Ms. Lusby's operation to a certain Mr. Michael Housel in Florida. Mr. Housel was forced to call the State Apiarist's staff in a "call for backup" when he realized that he would be unable to approach his hives with anything less than a M113A3 Armored Personnel Carrier. As I recall, the results of the testing were clear, and a letter was written pointedly reminding several people about the need to obtain certain paperwork before shipping queens across state lines, and advising all concerned that no such paperwork would be issued by the state of Florida, as they had quite enough AHB already. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:50:15 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid Treatme nts Reduce Nosema Spore Counts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...i've been doing a little reading up (and thinking) on africanized bees, and a few questions come to mind, and i'd love some input. 1. i read from roger morse (the illustrated encyclopedia of beekeeping, p230, under "killer bees"), that "It is known that sperm from Africanized bees was introduced into the United States and was used to inseminate local queens in the 1960's without apparent adverse effect, and it is likely tht queens were earlier introduced from Africa to North America, again without problems". there is also an article from the Arizona Repbulic online from 1991 that says, " Government documents released to The Arizona Republic by the Arizona Beekeepers Association confirm that Africanized bee semen was shipped from 1959 to 1961 by Kerr in Brazil to Stephen Tabor of the USDA bee lab in Baton Rouge. "It was part of an ongoing program to breed superior honey-producing bees, just like Dr. Kerr's experiments in South America," Lusby said." and some other documents that say largely the same thing (I'd love to see the article on this subject in "Bee World" 1973, Vol 54 if anyone has a copy). are the bees that migrated north on their own from brazil different from these other introductions? do the morphometric and dna databases that are used to identify "africanized" bees discriminate between these different introductions? 2. the reactions i've been getting to videos of dee's bees is interesting and varied. i showed the video to a farmer where we have many of our bees. when i told him that a ny bee inspector thought they looked "africanized", his reaction was, "who cares when they are healthy and strong like that". from others, i've heard (from one single source) that they are not strong, yet they are probably africanized. at our local beeclub, i showed the videos, and most people were fascinated...people asked if we saw africanized bees while we were in arizona, they didn't say "oh, those videos look like africanized bees". what i'm most curious about is this: can anyone show pictures/videos of hives that are as strong as the ones in the videos that they think are gentle? what i see online, in the books, and in the journals are hives much smaller than this...1 or 2 boxes for the broodnest, bees just sitting on the combs (not out working), and likely fed and medicated. we spent 2 weeks going through virtually all of dee's hives with her (about 600 after we made splits, averaging 5 deeps each). it was different than what i'm used to, but not scary. what we hear from the media, researchers and other beekeepers is that bees are dying. these bees are almost universally medicated (one would hope with approved treatments used according to the label). why would anyone interested in the long term health of the honeybees not want to look at a population of bees that is strong, healthy, and bigger than most research samples, and that are not treated? i've heard members of the ccd working group speak, and it seems to me they are only looking at sick bees (ccd or not, the commercial stock does not seem to be healthy)...why aren't they looking at a demonstrably healthy population to compare the sick bees with? "africanized" or not...these are healthy, managed bees that have not been treated....is there a better "control" to compare the treated commercial stock with? if so, can you name it? do any of the bee labs keep hives as strong as these? who can demonstrate healthy bees like these? imho, this country has a great resource in dees bees. those interested in improving the health of our bees in general should look to this as a model, not a threat. i look forward to feedback on these issues. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 05:09:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Thymol, Camphor Add to Therapeutic Properties of Spanish Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Thymol, Camphor Add to Therapeutic Properties of Spanish Honey Study of the Essential Oil Components in Honey of Aragon (NE Spain) http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/05/thymol-camphor-add-to-therapeutic.html Due to its climatic conditions, Aragon is rich in aromatic herbs, in particular in labiataes (labiates). Many of these labiates are medicinal plants such as rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis), thyme (Thymus sp.) and lavender (Lavandula sp.) and their honey also has therapeutic properties. The objective of this study is to determine the essential oil components, in particular Labiataes, of 63 honey samples from Aragon... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 08:37:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: unreported microsporidian MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In a sample of 30 worker honeybees collected in southwestern Georgia, three specimens were infected with a previously unreported microsporidian. Insufficient material was available for successful transmission and pathogenicity studies but dried and wet fixed smears, electron micrographs of thin sections of infected midgut tissue, and measurements of fresh spores showed this parasite to be distinct from N. apis. A continuing search for additional specimens of this microsporidian which began in the spring of 1977 has not been successful. It is hoped that this report may interest others in the search. -- CLARK, TRUMAN B. (1979) "A Second Microsporidian in the Honeybee" Bioenvironmental Bee Laboratory, Agricultural Research, Science and Education Administration, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Beltwille, Maryland 20705 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 09:24:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid Treatme nts Reduce Nosema Spore Counts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, 8 May 2008 11:50:15 GMT, deknow@netzero.net wrote: >can anyone show pictures/videos of hives that are as strong as the ones in the videos that they think are gentle? I am sorry but those hives are simply not strong hives. The first one in the video at Mendoza Canyon: five deeps. The boxes aren't even stuck together. Almost no bees in the fifth box, no evidence of bees working in the top box, boxes look like they were piled on top with no regard for the strength of the colony. Fourth box, frames not stuck together, most of the frames have NO bees on them. The frame where she supposedly sees the queen has no visible brood. She knocks the queen off before we can see it. She makes a "split" with the third box without even looking at it, no inspection, nothing. This is not beekeeping but just tossing boxes around. The bees are obviously furious. She says the hives has 120,000 bees in it. I doubt if it has 20,000. The upward limit in a strong hive is more like 60 to 80,000 in nay case, but who has time to count them all? Look, this video is not a video of beekeeping the way it is practiced generally. Nothing in the narrative agrees with what we are seeing. The hives are not strong, the bees are vicious. I have worked bees for decades and have taken hives apart with many times that many bees wearing jeans and a T-shirt. If the bees were wailing at the camera within seconds of opening up one hive, I would think there is a PROBLEM there. I work for hours in yards ten times that size and never have bees as aggravated as that. Furious bees are the exception and as inspectors we are instructed not to let the bees get that out of hand. When bees are that angry either the beekeeper has done something to infuriate them, they are being pestered by skunks at night, or they are naturally vicious bees. By the way, it is illegal to keep African bees in NY State and we use the USDA as the authority on Africanization. So I would advise against bringing these bees to NY State. Look, this matter is deadly serious. Any experienced beekeeper who looks at those videos will tell you the same thing. The reason most are silent is because they know that this will quickly escalate into a flame war. I am VERY SORRY I got involved, but I am tired of false statements being issued out of ignorance. Everybody knows Arizona is completely Africanized, has been for almost 20 years. It is simply not plausible or feasible to keep European bees in an Africanized area without instrumental insemination -- like what Page did at Tuscon. And if you allow bees to raise their own queens, like in the video, you have absolutely no control over the lineage, and you get the bees from the area. African bees. If you want informed expert opinion I can get it for you. If you want a fantasy based fairy story, you will have to go elsewhere. These are my own opinions based on decades of beekeeping experience with hundreds of beekeepers California, New York, Chile and elsewhere. I have done bees for most of my adult life and if you think I am mistaken in what I am saying, then so be it. I APOLOGIZE for any discomfort I have caused or will cause by this discussion and have tried to keep it to the facts in the interest of the advancement of beekeeping and of knowledge in general. I would really like to bow out at this point and allow others to present their views if they wish. But please do not regard lack of contradiction as some sort of tacit approval. Some people simply have no stomach for a contentious debate, and are too busy with more important work in any case. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 09:45:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Bee Balm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Interesting tidbit -- Wikipedia > Bee Balm (Monarda fistulosa and Monarda didyma) has a long history of use as a medicinal plant by many Native Americans including the Blackfeet. The Blackfeet Indians recognized this plants strong antiseptic action, and used poultices of the plant for skin infections and minor wounds. A tea made from the plant was also used to treat mouth and throat infections caused by dental caries and gingivitis. Bee Balm is the natural source of the antiseptic Thymol. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:19:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ - LATEST NEWS ON N. CERANAE FROM MUSSEN'S NEWSLETTER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Kim Flottum [mailto:Kim@BeeCulture.com] Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:03 PM This ezine is also available online at http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2008.05.08.12.03.archive.html CATCH THE BUZZ This information was gleaned from Eric Mussen's UC Davis Newsletter. Information below on how to subscribe. It is one of the best there is. This article has good information on treating Nosema cerane. You need to know this. Colony Collapse Still Around Stories of collapsing colonies are still coming in. As in the previous year, they started in late summer and continued right through almond bloom. Involved beekeepers varied from some who never had problems before to others who were hit hard two years in a row. As in previous years, samples taken after the collapse don't tell us too much, because whatever happened occurred earlier. What we see is empty hives with no sample bees left to take. Something that quite a number of beekeepers have noticed is that Nosema infections are much higher than they anticipated. When I arrived fresh from the University of Minnesota, I really emphasized the necessity of controlling nosema disease, especially if a beekeeper was going to sell queens and bulk bees to other beekeepers. That made quite an impact, especially on our Bee Breeders. Sales of fumagillin rocketed up in California. Our Bee Breeders have been using fumagillin for decades to control Nosema apis with very good results. They had their treatment schedules worked out and samples sent to me for spore counts were nearly always ND (not detected). This year, Dr. Marla Spivak and her crew began a project, with the assistance of Sue Cobey, to help the Bee Breeders select breeder queens whose workers demonstrated elevated hygienic behavior. Marla was pleasantly surprised to observe how well that trait already is established in many of the stocks. During those visits to the beekeeping outfits, samples also were taken of worker bees and analyzed for Nosema spores. A few years ago, ND was the norm. This year, ND was a rare exception. Most colonies had levels of infection that required treatment, according to the old guidelines. Some counts were as high as we see in laboratory studies of caged bees. How did this happen? Did our old friend, Nosema apis, become resistant to the fumagillin? I doubt it. The few studies that have been conducted over time showed no problem of that sort. Perhaps this isn't Nosema apis. It is likely to be Nosema ceranae, according to verbal reports of the CCD researchers. The European studies suggest that N. ceranae is susceptible to fumagillin, but they use it at dosages up to four times stronger than we use for Nosema apis. The Bee Breeders are not the only ones to see increased Nosema infections this year. Other California beekeepers are reporting high spore counts. Some are reporting globs of bee feces on the fronts of hives and on the ground in front of the colonies. Last fall, Randy Oliver was taking some samples from his colonies. He found that returning foragers, captured around noon and especially if they were writhing around on the ground, had elevated levels of spores. However, workers taken from the brood nest (nurse bees?) did not have demonstrable spores. This follows the pattern that Dr. Higes presented at our MegaMeeting in Sacramento a few months ago. He stated that the nurse bees would appear to be uninfected during the spring and summer, but as late summer and fall approached, the bees inside the hive would start top build up spore levels, as well as the foragers. When nearly all the "house bees" were infected, the adult population would abandon the hive. Is this what we call CCD? As our beekeepers try to resolve this nosema disease problem, they have to con-sider three important factors. The first is that worker honey bees infected with Nosema ceranae apparently will not take feed, either syrup or patty. Thus, the bees have to have the medicated syrup applied onto their bodies to force them to clean themselves off and take their medicine. Since you can only apply a small amount of syrup per treatment, the researchers in Spain suggest four treatments at one week intervals. The second difference between treating Nosema apis and N. ceranae concerns the dosage of the medication. Without saying much about experimental trials, the Spanish have decided that the dosage should be about 2.5-3.0 times higher than that used for N. apis. Thus, they would mix the 95 gram bottle into 40 gallons of syrup, instead of into 100-120 gallons. The third interesting factor is the formulation of the fumagillin that now is available to us. Fumagilin-B(r) is imported into the Unites States from a Canadian company, Medivet. The product is not "registered" as such, but the FDA has worked out a type of memorandum of understanding so that the product can be imported and used in the U.S. The numbers on the label differ from those on the label of the old Fumidil-B(r), but the mixing instructions are the same for Nosema apis. However, since it is not likely that we have Nosema apis in our bees anymore, you should pay attention to the instructions for use against Nosema ceranae. The Medivet label divides its instructions into fall and spring uses. Fall isn't difficult, because they are the same instructions as for the old Fumidil-B in the fall. It is the spring use that demands careful study. The instructions say to feed "at a rate of 30 mg fumagillin activity per colony, 4 times at 1 week intervals." For our purposes, the next set of instructions is better. "Dissolve 454 g Fumagilin-B (one large bottle) in 40 US gallons of sugar syrup and feed each colony 1 pint (treats 320 colonies). Repeat 3 times at 1 week intervals." Schedule to complete treatment at least 4 weeks before adding honey supers." Yes, this means that the dosage is about 2.5 times stronger than we used to use for Nosema apis. Yes, this means many additional visits to the bee yards. And, if you notice that the bees in the colony just are not taking up medicated syrup, you may have to pour it on the bees. That is the procedure used by the Spanish researchers. Spraying the applications on the bees is being tested, currently, by Medivet. There are a few other Medivet suggests that bear repeating. Make sure the fumagillin is well blended into the syrup. This formulation blends into syrup much more readily than the old Fumidil-B - do not get the syrup very hot or the fumagillin will be inactivated. Check to see if the bees are taking the syrup. Nosema ceranae-infected bees often stop feeding, all together. You can subscribe to Eric Mussen's electronic Newsletter by visiting the address below. It is one of the best there is. http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/mussen/news.cfm **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:20:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid Treatme nts Reduce Nosema Spore Counts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 8 May 2008 11:50:15 GMT, deknow@netzero.net wrote: > are the bees that migrated north on their own from brazil different from these other introductions? do the morphometric and dna databases that are used to identify "africanized" bees discriminate between these different introductions? Debbie Delaney explained that formerly it was believed that there were four evolutionary branches of Apis mellifera based on morphology (anatomical features): M, from western Europe and related to A. m. mellifera C, from eastern Europe and related to A.m. ligustica and carnica O, from western Asia and related to A.m. caucasica A, from Africa and related to all the African races, like A.m. scutellata and A.m. adansonii. Using newer analytical tools, like mitochondrial DNA analysis, there seems to be only three ancient lineages, with the former O group belonging with the C group. Honey bees from the M group were introduced into what is now the U.S. in the 1600’s. Between 1859 and 1922, seven more races of bees were introduced into the country, including the well-known Italian, Carniolan, and Caucasian bees. Cyprian, Egyptian, Syrian and three races of African bees eventually were introduced into the country, as well. In the early 1990’s, M and C lineages could be found in southern and western lines, but A was not around. The bees in the southern and western geographic regions were genetically distinct. In the southern populations the C lineage is increasing and the M is shrinking. In the western lines the same phenomenon is occurring. What does this mean to U.S. beekeepers? The gene pools of commercial and feral populations, with the notable exception of the A group, are shrinking. Genes for important functions in honey bee life may be disappearing. In this researcher’s opinion, it would be a good idea to select some good stocks from the geographic origins of these [European] races and re-introduce their genetic material back into our stocks of bees. Eric Mussen Entomology University of California Davis, CA 95616 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 13:00:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ - LATEST NEWS ON N. CERANAE FROM MUSSEN'S NEWS... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with all that Eric has to say. He and I have had extensive conversations about these issues. Eric mentions researcher results. I will add that we have been sampling bees for N. ceranae since a member of our research team first announced its presence last April (2007). That annoyed researchers who knew it was in U.S. bees, but hadn't told the bee industry about it. Every CCD operation that we've sampled since August has had N. ceranae in some of the colonies - as verified by PCR by Dr. Robert Cramer at Montana State University - our sister institution. We weren't looking for this pathogen until Joe DeRisi found it last April. Robb got set up to look for it before end of the summer, and we've been screening for it ever since. After Dr. Highes and Randy Oliver reported a difference in the number of spores of N. ceranae in bees of different ages, we changed our sampling procedure. Last month I sampled several bee operations in CA. In each case, I took a sample of old bees and a sample of young bees from each marked colony. More often than not, we saw it in the older bees, only occasionally in young bees. Seeing 12 million spores in an old bee, versus none in a young bee is quite a contrast. I'm skeptical that any treatment is going to help the health of individual bees that are already infected, but this preliminary data indicates that treatment in the spring MAY help protect the young, uninfected bees. I can't say whether increasing the dose, frequency of application, or drenching bees will do the trick. I can say that we and many ID and WA beekeepers used fumadil/fumagillin last fall according to label directions for N. apis AND IT DIDN'T WORK. Huge overwinter losses, and LOTS of N. ceranae in the bees. N. ceranae seems to be a tough little pathogen. As I've said before, it doesn't account for all cases of CCD, but it certainly is widespread. When we find colonies that are in poor shape, tossing out dead/dying bees that are loaded with N. ceranae spores, it sure looks like what the Spaniards have been describing. Remember also, we are more focused on large bee operations in the WEST than are some of the other CCD researchers. Out here, we share one thing in common with Spain, lots of areas of semi-arid, relatively hot climate. Jerry **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 07:42:43 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: Terramyacin for the heck of it? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What's the pros and cons regarding treating with terramyacin when no signs of problems exist? Thanks. Howard **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:48:01 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ - LATEST NEWS ON N. CERANAE FROM MUSSEN 'S NEWS... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: Every CCD operation that we've sampled since August has had N. ceranae in some of the colonies - as verified by PCR hi jerry, i'm curious if you have been doing similar PCR tests for n.ceranae in non-ccd affected operations? deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 18:18:43 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Terramyacin for the heck of it? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit any use of antibiotics will eventually breed for a resistant strain of whatever you are scared of catching. unnecessary use of antibiotics will do this unnecessarily. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 01:21:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: A Spring without Bees In-Reply-To: <008001c8aee9$f0937df0$3f04010a@D70Y9L71Joe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable New book investigating imidacloprid/bee loss connection. =20 = http://www.globepequot.com/globepequot/index.cfm?fuseaction=3Dcustomer.pr= oduct&product_code=3D1%2D59921%2D432%2D6&category_code=3D Busy time in the bee business. Little time for net and return phone = calls. Tim, Brian, Andy, Joe, Maryam and others I will reply when caught = up. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:22:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Terramyacin for the heck of it? In-Reply-To: <20080508174231.C45D213A3FEE@ip-208-109-232-36.ip.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There are no pros. It's like your doctor presribing you antibiotics for your cold, just in case it turns into pneumonia. It does nothing for the cold and only helps breed antibiotic-resistant bacteria. Eugene Makovec > What's the pros and cons regarding treating with > terramyacin when no signs of problems exist? > **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 15:33:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ - LATEST NEWS ON N. CERANAE FROM MUSSEN'S NEWS... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 8 May 2008 13:00:56 EDT, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: >Eric mentions researcher results. I will add that we have been sampling bees >for N. ceranae since a member of our research team first announced its >presence last April (2007). That annoyed researchers who knew it was in U.S. bees, >but hadn't told the bee industry about it. > Why did they keep it under wraps - is there a conspiracy or what possibly could be the motivation? The weather here in the upper Midwest has been absolutely dismal and most wintered over colonies are not building up except my Russians. Might I have nosema in the sluggards or just poor weather? No time now to take samples etc Along that line a beekeeper in this state who probably has the largest number of Russian colonies (from Charlie Harper stock) recently had his bees checked for Nosema and the U/Mn found nothing. He operates in an area that is busy with large commercial operations and a family member also has bees which are not Russian. He does not use Fumidil either. Since the Russian bees overlapped with Apis Ceranae could they also have a natural resistance to N Ceranae? Jerry have you sampled any Russian colonies and if so what do you think of that hypothesis? Of course not all russians are true russians, hybrids do not count in my book. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 15:55:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ - LATEST NEWS ON N. CERANAE FROM MUSSEN'S NEWS... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We sampled Russian stock last spring BEFORE we had the capability of distinguishing N. ceranae from N. apis. We're always on the hunt for beeyards and stocks that DO NOT have N. ceranae or CCD. Unfortunately, that latter criteria is a tough one, since no one, including ourselves, know what CCD is. Keep in mind, we missed N. ceranae in our own bees last year because we weren't taking the samples that we needed to see it. Lesson learned, N. ceranae may be in sub-populations of bees. As I've said before, if you see dead/dying bees - look at them. If you've only one sample to take, make it old bees. If you can, take young bees for comparison. But check those dead/dying bees - may NOT BE pesticides. Jerry **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 16:06:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Terramyacin for the heck of it? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >What are the pros and cons regarding treating with terramycin when no signs of problems exist? As an NY Bee Inspector, I get this asked all the time. Shorter answers notwithstanding, this requires a longer response. First, if you live in an area where "no signs of problems exist", then -- lucky you! Where I travel, signs of problems are everywhere. But more to the point, the question is more whether you have foulbrood -- OR -- is there any in your area. Really, only contact with other beekeepers and bee inspectors will tell you if there is a problem in your area. Many beekeepers don't like to talk about it, and in NYS we do not give out the names of the people who have it. However, I can tell beekeepers if their township is apparently free of foulbrood, in which case, I recommend not using antibiotics as prevention. If there is AFB around, I recommend using terramycin spring and fall, especially when bees are robbing and dragging in honey from unknown sources. This is one way the disease is spread. Another way it is spread is: the beekeeper already has it and moves it around. If you have an occasional case of AFB, I recommend burning it up, and giving ALL the others TM as a prevention for a few years. Then you can slack off and see if it comes back. If, for some reason, you don't want to use antibiotics as a prevention (and there are many good reasons not to), then you damned well better learn about diseases so that if you do get them you can treat them. In NY State the recommended treatment for AFB is to kill the bees and burn up the hive. In other states, they are allowed to treat infections with drugs, but you run the risk of masking it and driving underground, only to pop up later after you have spread it throughout your outfit by comb swapping. A hive being worth $150 to $200, you simply don't want to leave it bare to every bacteria on the block. We don't have many chems that work and TM is one that does. TM resistant AFB is not common, I have only seen a few beekeepers that have it. If you do, all the more reason to burn up the resistant germs and use preventive measures on the rest. The issue of TM resistant foulbrood is thorny. No one has proved that regular use of TM caused this, although it is certainly logical to assume that it did. Many of us feel it was the use of extender patties left in the hive year 'round that caused this problem, but there is no proof (so far as I know) that it did. TM has been used on bees for at least 30 years, so it took a long time to develop resistance in any case. What I suggest is three doses in powdered sugar given in the spring and then again in the fall. It's illegal to give it during the honey flow, anyway. You have a short window of opportunity to medicate your bees and I recommend only what is needed. You will have to determine what happens if you don't use any chemicals. Maybe yours will be OK; maybe they will die off. Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 16:28:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Africanized bee questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>>Peter wrote: I am sorry but those hives are simply not strong hives.<<<< Let's see if we can get past any flame war and discuss. Let's assume that Dees' bees are Africanized. That she is working them at all should be the lesson, not whether the narrative matches the picture. That the work goes on without treatments merely underlines what has been seen in other countries. A friend of mine has worked Africanized bees without gloves in 3 countries. Another friend, Bill mares (Bees Besieged) demonstrated that he finally did so after finding the right bees in Central America. In Brazil, you couldn't give a European colony away. They are considered to be reservoirs of mites and disease. My source there with 100 hives told me that 80 percent of his hives were workable and the rest were psychotic. So. It is no secret that African bees vary; that they have resistance to mites and disease and that they are worked all over the southern hemisphere and exist in profusion from Kansas to southern GA. Peter wrote: >>>>Fourth box, frames not stuck together, most of the frames have NO bees on them. The frame where she supposedly sees the queen has no visible brood. She knocks the queen off before we can see it.<<<< It sounds like you think the 3 folks involved are being deliberately duplicitous. What would be the motivation to do that? >>>>Look, this video is not a video of beekeeping the way it is practiced generally. Nothing in the narrative agrees with what we are seeing.<<<< I don't have your experience Peter but have made splits with several big 'keepers. This sort of slam-bang approach is exactly what I expected. >>>>The hives are not strong, the bees are vicious.<<<<< And your point would be..? I've taken a lot of bee pictures. It's hard to see the bees in many of them. If you catch a swarm against the sky sometimes it can be done. The relative strength of the colonies may not be as important as the data that they are going from year to year without treatment. There's certainly enough to be "vicious." I assumed this was at least in part a set-up so that the camera could show the routine rather than show the struggle of breaking the seal loose. I have no inside info. >>>>I am VERY SORRY I got involved, but I am tired of false statements being issued out of ignorance.<<<<<<< If we just change that one thing-that the bees be assumed to be Africanized-then are we past the false statements? (After all, it is just a label) Great minds could disagree about colony strength. The data is: there are bees there that work. Ascribing their success to small cell, housel positioning, unlimited brood nest etc. may not be scientific but I don't think that gives you the right to call them false statements if Dee believes them and you can't prove them false. One large bee man I talked to this year has 1600 colonies committed to small cell operation in some degree. Others are watching closely. Put your hand behind you ear. Can you hear the buzz? The AHBs are coming. Dick Marron **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:57:56 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid Treatme nts Reduce Nosema Spore Counts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit deknow quoted Morse: > "It is known that sperm from Africanized bees was introduced into the > United States and was used to inseminate local queens in the 1960's > without apparent adverse effect, and it is likely tht queens were earlier > introduced from Africa to North America, again without problems". Is the clue in the word 'apparent'? Might it not take many generations before 'adverse effects' begin to show? Some hybrids in the UK now show bad temper that many suspect is on a par with Africanised bees. Although I have never experienced AHBs, I have handled bees in the UK that seem worse than the videos of AHB that I have seen, e.g. so many bees attacking my veil that it was difficult to see through it, coupled with following for up to 400 yards. From the literature, this did not seem to happen before imports became the norm. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 14:34:30 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Terramyacin for the heck of it? In-Reply-To: <20080508.141843.18030.4@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Consider the larger concern; the bi-directional selection of promoting poor resistance in your bees by the use of such treatments, and spreading this poor resistance by way of a genetic time bomb to your fellow beekeepers bees, including the feral population of bees. Perhaps, the concern about breeding resistant strains of bee diseases could be lessened, if not eliminated with responsible breeding practices. Best Wishes, Joe Feralbeeproject.com 1901, Fountain Ferry Park, Kentucky “A swarm of bees settled on Carey’s Face, folks thought he had smallpox.” http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 16:14:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid Treatme nts Reduce Nosema Spore Counts In-Reply-To: <20080508.075015.2476.1@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, Deknow, I agree with a lot of what you are saying and in my opinion, the beekeeping industry is failing miserably for not using, and breeding with AHB stock to improve it for the better of the industry. Instead they indiscriminately destroy and eradicate any thing that even looks AHB and in states considered AHB they even destroy colonies that are gentle in the fear that they are "AHB". The publics indiscriminate destruction of colonies is not helping for the long haul. As another said the informed experts have all the answers and have the situation under control and low and behold now we are in this sad state of misery with the beekeeping industry. Bees are in such a shortage that getting package bees and queens are getting harder to do, I get call here in Alaska from people in the lower 48 states thinking I can send them package bees from up here, crazy uh? AHB can be breed to the gentle side just like in Puerto Rico described in this link below; http://esa.confex.com/esa/2005/techprogram/paper_22428.htm Most beekeepers are afraid of AHB, and in turn they are scarring the public. Like I have said before, Beekeepers can be their own worst enemy as in this case. But hey, I am just a poor, dumb, uninformed beekeeper in Alaska, What do I know. God Bless, Keith Malone **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:31:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Bee Mortality -Pesticides Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, I am seeking information concerning past honeybee mortality by pesticides or other chemicals that have caused hardship to beekeepers and bees. An approximate date, and pesticide involved will be sufficient to aid in my search. Any information providing key words will help. Thanks! Best Wishes Joe Pennsylvania **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:50:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid Treatme nts Reduce Nosema Spore Counts In-Reply-To: <9C4DDB62-14B6-4FDD-A579-BC3BF774CDEF@gci.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I advocated this here on BEE-L before the AHB ever arrived in the US. As I recall my suggestion was dismissed by "better informed" folks. This stuff is probably still available in the 'stacks'. > . . . the beekeeping industry is failing miserably for not using, and > breeding with AHB stock to improve it for the better of the industry. But, then as now, I was just as dumb and uninformed as you, Keith. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 01:58:06 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: heather gamper Subject: Re: Terramyacin for the heck of it? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I appreciate Peter's recent response to this issue. It is possible that thi= s issue is not as cut-and-dry as.... "do not treat" if you do not have evidence of AFB.=20 After reading a little about Terramycin, it appears as if this type of anti= biotic suppresses growth of the bacteria in its active vegetative form. Ass= uming hives with active vegetative forms of the bacteria will appear sympto= matic to AFB (not sure if this true?), and perhaps non-active vegetative fo= rms of the bacteria will show no signs of AFB in your hives - maybe in trea= ting with terramycin to a non-symptomatic hives, you are actually doing not= hing to the AFB spores that are not active and are wiping away beneficial b= acteria that open the hive to other infection? =20 > >What are the pros and cons regarding treating with terramycin when no si= gns of problems exist? >=20 > As an NY Bee Inspector, I get this asked all the time. Shorter answers > notwithstanding, this requires a longer response. =20 _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr= esh_messenger_052008= **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 22:37:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Terramyacin for the heck of it? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8-May-08, at 4:06 PM, Peter L. Borst wrote: >> > If, for some reason, you don't want to use antibiotics as a prevention > (and there are many good reasons not to), then you damned well better > learn about diseases so that if you do get them you can treat them. Hi Peter and all Thanks Peter for your well written thoughts on "to treat or not to treat". Several years ago with 25 years of beekeeping under my belt, I decided to step closer to organic beekeeping by not using Oxytet. "I'm a good beekeeper" I thought, "I can keep the foulbrood under control without antibiotics". I was wrong! I learned very quickly what foulbrood looks like and what burning frames look like. I bought a small book published in New Zealand "Elimination of AFB Without the Use of Drugs" which I follow except that I resumed the use of Oxytet as recommended in Ontario. > Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 19:55:42 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > New book investigating imidacloprid/bee loss connection. The book will soon be reclassified and shelved where it belongs, with the rest of the fiction. "Evidence that Colony Collapse Disorder Is a Disease Expert: Pesticide Poisoning Wouldn't Roll Through Colonies This Way" http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/blogs/bees/colony-collap se-disorder-55050802 or, if the line-wrap monster ate the above: http://tinyurl.com/4ykwpm How many times does it have to be said that if it looks like a pathogen, walks through apiaries like a pathogen, and kills like a pathogen, the proximate cause is highly likely to be... [drum roll] a pathogen. Or maybe three. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 22:29:14 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid Treatme nts Reduce Nosema Spore Counts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter: I would be ashamed to work hives with frames stuck together and boxes stuck together, for it shows to me bad frame spacing and also bad spacing between supers. I am used to working colonies with plenty of bees and also very little burr comb, as I consider that caused by bad alignment of combs and positioning. I also do not light bees that boil up and out of boxes. Pulling out whole frames of capped brood shows me nothing wrong and if I want to tap the bees off prior to to make looking at cells easier I do it. So many times I see pictures of frames with junk all over them and sloppy to look at and work with......why? Bees don't have to be worked that way. Also if you think no bees in colonies by your assumptions, come on out and see......you might be surprised when you get inside to see what is actually there, but quiet working. As for foragers flying around, I see that as no problem. Now if stinging that would be another concern. But they do not normally do that, even when I go thru for quick splits once a year....... Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 20:53:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: FW: CATCH THE BUZZ - LATEST NEWS ON N. CERANAE FROM MUSSEN'S NEWSLETTER Comments: cc: Eric Mussen In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline To follow up on Dr Mussen's excellent newsletter: The key thing for summer treatment appears to be to get 30mg active ingredient into a colony each week, repeated for 4 weeks. That works out to the following dilutions and amount applied. 454g bottle/40 gal syrup =30mg/pt fed 454g bottle /20gal syrup = 30mg/cup drench 454g bottle /10gal syrup = 30mg/half cup drench Note that the product is not very stable in syrup, and should be used quickly! Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 03:39:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Manipulating Bee Behavior, Physiology May Improve Quality of Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Manipulating Bee Behavior, Physiology May Improve Quality of Honey Bee Choice of Food Source and Processing Inside the Hive: Two Essential Mechanisms to Determine Bee Product Quality http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/05/manipulating-bee-behavior-physiology.html Major components of honey derive outside of the bee hive. Nectar and honeydew have to be collected by the bees and brought inside of the hive where processing and maturation from food source sugar solutions into valuable honey occurs. Along with the most abundant sugars - glucose, fructose and sucrose - bees also collect other organic and inorganic compounds that are secreted from nectarous glands or by honeydew's producers... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 03:54:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Beeswax 'Ear Candles' Used to Clear Congestion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Beeswax 'Ear Candles' Used to Clear Congestion Hopi: A Candle Brought Music to My Ears Daily Telegraph (UK), 5/5/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/05/beeswax-ear-candles-used-to-clear.html Ear candling, a traditional therapy used by the Ancient Greeks, was popularised by the Hopi Indian tribe of the American south-west. The narrow, hollow rolled column of cotton flax is impregnated with beeswax. Now know as Hopi candles, they also contain honey, sage, St Johns Wort, and camomile. The patient lies on their side and a candle is gently inserted as far as is comfortable into the ear canal. It doesn't hurt, but it feels odd... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 07:49:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Informed Discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Greetings I have a great deal of fondness for this discussion group and feel it is one of the best around. I even like its name: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology". It should be borne in mind, however, that while many of the comments that appear in these pages are of the informed variety, many are not. I do not have the time nor inclination to address them all. One of the most informed beekeepers that I know is Dennis vanEngelsdorp. He has an excellent publication entitled: "African Honey Bee Action Plan" You can find it at http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/AfricanHB.html excerpts Characteristics of the Africanized honey bee compared to European AFRICAN HONEY BEE (AHB) Defensiveness Typically 10 x more stings then EHB Quicker response time Persistent (following up to 1/4 mile) May not respond to smoke Swarming 16 times per year Longer swarming season Absconding Common after disturbance and period of dearth/poor resources Up to 16 times a year Robbing Can be excessive at times Nest site Smaller cavity acceptable allowing for easier establishment in urban environment Wintering ability Poorly adapted to cold winters (but becomes adapted with time) Population density High colony density Colony takeover Queen usurpation common Drone parasitism of European colonies common Calmness on the comb Bees extremely nervous running and festooning on frames making management difficult EUROPEAN HONEY BEE (EHB) Defensiveness Usually gentle Defensiveness is manageable with Smoke Swarming 1 to 2 times per year Distinct swarming season Absconding Unusual (and not conductive to survival) Robbing Usually only occurs during dearth and is beekeeper caused Nest site Require relatively large nesting cavity (> 40 L) Wintering ability Highly adapted to cold winter Population density Low colony density Colony takeover Exceedingly rare Calmness on the comb Usually calm on the comb Risks AHB poses a serious threat to the Mid-Atlantic States. The potential adverse impact begins with, but is not limited to, potential loss of bees for pollination of crops vital to our economy and food supply. The pollination demands of regional fruit and vegetable producers require large numbers of colonies to be moved annually from regions in which Africanized bees are, or likely will be, established. The contribution honey bees make to the five-state agricultural economy is estimated in excess of $ 200 million. The vast majority of this value comes from the pollination services provided by the estimated 20,000 colonies moved into the 5-state region beginning with spring orchard bloom. These colonies return to southern states during the winter months to provide needed pollination in those states, to decrease over-winter colony losses, and to ensure colonies are sufficiently strong to meet northern fruit and vegetable producers' spring and summer pollination needs. AHBs also pose a potentially serious public health and safety threat. AHBs could adversely impact tourism and recreation within the five-state region. Educational institutions, emergency services, parks and recreational agencies, and others, all require training and AHB control plans to negate or reduce AHB risk to the public. Experience in other states shows that advance preparation and planned public awareness programs result in better understanding and cooperation that results in reduced negative impacts. Appropriate response rather than panic reduces the possibility of injury or death. Much can be learned from the Venezuela and Mexican AHB experiences. Human deaths due to stinging attacks reached a high of 100 per year in 1978 (three years after AHB introduction) in Venezuela, a country of ten million people. A public awareness program including cartoon posters helped reduce human deaths to 20 per year. Mexico prepared an even more effective public awareness program in advance, including cartoon spots on TV. A country of 95 million, Mexico has recorded just over 200 human deaths during the first 18 years of the existence of AHB in Mexico. A total of 14 fatalities attributable to AHB have occurred in the United States since AHB colonization in 1990. The reduced impact is thought, in part, to be from carefully planned educational efforts. One last concern that needs to be addressed is liability and its impact on the judicial system and insurance industry. Beekeepers will need assurance that they will not face unmerited litigation from an alarmed or overly sensitized citizenry; without such assistance many will be unable to continue their businesses. Finding suitable, secure locations for bee colony apiary sites will be an escalating challenge for beekeepers, particularly sites that will be able to accommodate apiaries with larger numbers of colonies. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 12:29:05 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Ac id Treatme nts Reduce Nosema Spore Counts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Dee Lusby wrote: I am used to working colonies with plenty of bees and also very little burr comb, as I consider that caused by bad alignment of combs and positioning. >>>my own observation/interpretation is that dee leaves plenty of empty room at the bottom of her foundation, and does not really cull drone comb. this makes it less necessary for the bees to keep putting drones in between the boxes, where most are used to seeing them. also, dee does harvest propolis (from the frames, not from a trap), so when frames make it to the honey house, they get scraped down. >>>when one only gives the bees worker foundation, and culls anything that has "too much drone" on it (for the beekeeper...clearly not for the bees), the bees have no choice but to keep putting drones between boxes. >>>deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 16:02:00 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Africanized bee questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick said: > Ascribing their success... But there has been no consistent evidence of "success". Dee's own large-scale losses are only the latest evidence that small-cell is much less a panacea than the claims made might lead one to believe. I've not heard any post-mortem data from Dee's bees sent for analysis, so I'm going to jump to the conclusion that the proximate cause of Dee's losses was something more mundane than "CCD-like symptoms". Why the focus on Dee's bees? Is this a "personal attack"? Not at all - Dee constantly offers her own operation as anecdotal evidence that her METHODS are the key elements in her miticide-free and medication-free operation, rather than the crossbred genetics of the bees themselves, the location, and/or other "passive" factors. > small cell, housel positioning, unlimited brood nest etc. may not > be scientific but I don't think that gives you the right to call > them false statements if Dee believes them and you can't prove > them false. The burden of proof is not on anyone else to "prove them false", the burden of proof is on those making the claims to provide strictly vetted data in support of their claims. I'll say it yet again: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." While the use of the term "false" may seem harsh, a prudent beekeeper can conclude that unproven claims are NOT proven true. And if something is "not proven true", then how would you have us describe it? But the bulk of the evidence at hand today certainly does tend to specifically "prove them false". I'll summarize below as best I can: 1) SMALL CELL The controlled studies done in both GA and FL (yet to be published) show more mites per 100 worker brood cells in small-cell colonies than in conventional control colonies. The small-cell camp heard of the GA results, and dismissed the study as "flawed" due to the co-location of the two types of hives, but they were unaware of the FL study, which isolated small-cell from conventional hives, and showed the same statistically significant trends. So, regardless of whether small-cell colonies are co-located with non-small-cell colonies or not, the results are the same. The next critique being trotted out is that these studies were "too brief" to show the impact of small cell, but this is contradicted by both the use of existing established small-cell colonies in both studies, and the claims of the small-cell practitioners themselves, who have never claimed that multiple years are required once one has "downsized" to see the "downsized" bees fare better than non-downsized bees. Just to confuse matters further, there have also been statements made by Randy about the new "HoneySuperCell" pre-drawn plastic small-cell comb, but his claims were based upon either 48-hr or 24-hr passive mite drop counts (his article text did not agree with his charts on this key point) rather than the more rigorous "mites per cell" data used in the two controlled studies. As a result, his drop counts cannot even be compared with the standard "72-hr drop and divide by 3" approach used in the bulk of studies that utilize passive mite drop data, and may have been skewed by the weather (which is why 72 hrs is the standard). It was also unclear where, except in bridge comb, drone comb might have been in the "HoneySuperCell" colonies. All other things being equal, the limited number of drones certainly would have a significant impact on mite counts, but limiting or eliminating drones would have long-term negative impact on the productivity of colonies deprived of the ability to raise as many drones as they would like. 2) HOUSEL POSITIONING This practice is far too dependent on the perception of the beekeeper, as combs tend to defy consistent evaluation and classification as to the "orientation" of the comb. "Housel Positioning" is the "N-Rays" of beekeeping. If you've never heard of "N-Rays", it is a tale of how some French scientists fell victim to self-delusion and hubris: http://skepdic.com/blondlot.html Even true believers among the small-cell faction have a hard time drinking the Kool-Aide on "Housel Positioning", here's just one: http://www.bwrangler.com/bee/shou.htm 3) UNLIMITED BROOD NEST I don't see this as a controversial practice as much as a misunderstanding of brood nest comb utilization. Diana Sammataro's "Beekeepers Handbook" rates one Langstroth deep frame as having 3350 cells per side, 6700 total frame. Your actual number may vary, of course, and small-cell frames would tend to have even more cells. Given an average of 21 days of maturation time for a worker bee, and a laying rate that would tend to max out at about 2,000 eggs per day, one can do one's own math, using any slop factor one wishes for the percentage brood-cell utilization within each frame, and any egg-laying rate you like. Bottom line, there is a limit to how much space needs to be allocated to brood chamber, as the queen can only lay so fast. Clearly, "unlimited" space is neither needed nor within the realm of possible utilization. So, the phrase "unlimited brood nest" evinces either a profound and willful ignorance of basic bee biology and behavior, or a psychological need to describe a complete LACK of management as a form of management with some sort of intangible advantage or benefit. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 16:47:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid Treatme nts Reduce Nosema Spore Counts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 8 May 2008 22:29:14 -0700, Dee Lusby wrote: >Peter: >I would be ashamed to work hives with frames stuck together and boxes stuck together, for it shows to me bad frame spacing and also bad spacing between supers. i would have thought the natural beekeepers would leave all that wax and propolis on the frames and hive bodies because thats you know "natural". Marla Spivak is in the midst of a study that is looking at how important or not important propolis is to maintaining a healthy hive. my frames and boxes are full of the stuff. Nature provided propolis to the bees for some good reason. so let me ask the obvious question since everyone is dancing around it and acting like the genie is still in the bottle - Dee can you comment on the Florida information posted here this week that your bees tested positive as AHB's ? Does this not throw a wrench in the small cell claims? As we all know AHB is resistant to mites so the implication is that your success with no treatments has more to do with the genetics then small cell. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 16:59:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Plan Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://audubonmagazine.org/features0805/pollination.html **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 19:58:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid Treatme nts Reduce Nosema Spore Counts In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, On May 9, 2008, at 12:47 PM, Brian Fredericksen wrote: > oes this not throw a wrench in the small cell claims? As we all know > AHB is resistant to mites so > the implication is that your success with no treatments has more to > do with the genetics then > small cell. No it does not, it does not have more to do with one thing or the other, 1/3 environment (cell size), 1/3 nutrition (no artificial), 1/3 breeding (It has been shown by several that strain does not matter). It seems to me that the ones dancing around this issue are those who are assuming that small cell has everything to do with SCB, when it is everything working together that makes the difference. This is where the studies on SC fall short, by neglecting the whole big picture of everything working together and not giving the colonies enough time to sort the mess out. God Bless, Keith Malone **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 21:20:53 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Ac id Treatme nts Reduce Nosema Spore Counts In-Reply-To: <20080509.082905.6797.0@webmail13.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dean (Deknow): when one only gives the bees worker foundation, > and culls anything that has "too much drone" on it > (for the beekeeper...clearly not for the bees), the bees > have no choice but to keep putting drones between boxes. reply: Right. It makes for plenty of burr comb and messes for working bees. YOu take SC foundation and put a 1/4 to 1/2 inch gap at the bottom above a solid bottom bar and let the bees have option of drawing out either drone or worker cells, you end up with more drone throughout the active beekeeping year for queening purposes. You get not only earlier drones but later ones too for a longer breeding year. You also eliminate when used with Housel Positioning over 95% of burr comb with drones being made, then couple this with proper spacing between frames with 10-11 frames to a box and proper spacing between supers/boxes and the hives become a delight to work without all the breaking apart routine that only makes bees upset for working. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 01:33:38 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Ac id Treatme nts Reduce Nosema Spore Counts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Nature provided propolis to the bees for some good reason. I certainly see this in the feral colonies I remove. Bees strive for continuous comb even around rafter beams and older comb is very tough from propolis. >>so the implication is that your success with no treatments has more to do with the genetics then small cell. Dee's bees may be African. On the other hand, Dennis Murrell (spelling!) had success with small cell and saw cell size variation centered on an average cell size smaller than standard foundation in his TBHs. As far as I know, Dennis was not in African territory. So we may be talking about 2 independent phenomena here. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 21:43:42 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Africanized Bee Questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jim writes: > But there has been no consistent evidence of > "success". Dee's own large-scale losses are only the latest > evidence that small-cell is much less a panacea than the claims > made might lead one to believe. Reply: Yes, I lost aprox 200 hives out of 300 in one area next to another commercial beekeeper that does migratory (almonds and other). This happened last part of Aug/Sep of past year. Found the bees spitting out the pollen and honey in the hives and propolizing everything squeaky clean. No dead bees on bottom boards. Some were in a clustering mode rather then out foraging with a good flow going on. Went overall from about 860 down too 660 going into winter, not counting having to carry another 6 big yards due to Kitt Peak Observatory fire that hit national press last summer and with plants burned down to ground, even with monsoon rains, they couldn't forage enough for going into winter. So both areas I had to feed to carry over winter so I took all honey from other yards and did what I had to. But I held numbers with Dean and Ramona's help to 600 plus and numbers are growing again, and all are 4/5 deeps and I am right now taking honey for coming year......even in these bad areas. But I didn't feed artificial feed to them. I fed back my crop last fall and took the hit up front. I also figure due to circumstances I lost about 25% compared to others doing worse with treatments and all. But losses happen naturally and with fire and CCD perhaps (dunno as no lab tests back to read), but I stil got bees and they are coming on and by fall hope to have numbers back for will do splits again after summer main flow over for going into fall, or at least try. also I am not working with 1-2 boxes like many. continuing: > The controlled studies done in both GA and FL (yet to be > published) show more mites per 100 worker brood cells in > small-cell colonies than in conventional control colonies. Reply: this is normal and I have talked about this in the past and posted same in discussion on various lists. For you want to see high numbers and with cell size the mites go to the smallest first and this has been written about in the past and is evident on first broodnest turnovers when regressing down and converting back. But it is a good sign and good thing to see. I have related this in the past even here, probably still in archives, of the broodnest acting like a living "LIVER" for filtering out diseases and pests in a hive.......nothing new.....But the mites go to the small first when drones kicked out and the seasons two major broodnest turns are done.Only way for naturally getting the mites out, with chewing out of varroa shortly following, and in archives will probably find that here too talked about in the past.......Anyway, when first year and first major turns are done then things taper down and then you don't normally see it so wild........nothing hard to follow. It just takes a good 2-3 years to see it....Nothing hard, you just follow the bees and watch. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 21:51:10 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid Treatme nts Reduce Nosema Spore Counts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > so let me ask the obvious question since everyone is > dancing around it and acting like the genie is > still in the bottle - Dee can you comment on the Florida > information posted here this week that > your bees tested positive as AHB's ? Reply: Intesting, For samples were sent to Florida and I still have samples in bottles taken officially by Arizona state employees still under lock and key that were signed off and sent thru mail in sealed bottles by hives and other. LIke in a time capsule sorta with one last box still remaining or is it two boxes still remaining!....But same samples sent to USDA and Fla were also sent to places in EU and Nordic States and other for testing and spots with a few private researchers in USA doing too. But interesting thing was no results the same for uniformity. Think this is in archives here on BEE-L too by the way as was talked about when done from time to time. Would think all testers would give same results......If not then why? Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 03:59:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Stan_Sandler?= Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >How many times does it have to be said that if it >looks like a pathogen, However, that does not rule out an environmental stress causing lowered immune response to pathogen (s). Bayer itself claims (or used to claim until I pointed it out) on the label of Premise, an imidacloprid product for ants and termites, that the product killed colonies by making them more susceptible to diseases. Stan **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 04:08:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Scientists Discover Why Honey Sticks to the Spoon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Scientists Discover Why Honey Sticks to the Spoon Australian News http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/05/scientists-discover-why-honey-sticks-to.html Melbourne, May 10: Ever wondered why honey sticks to your spoon when you take it out of the bottle? This is a question that has long been debated and now it seems scientists have reached a consensus, claiming everybody was right with their theory about the stickiness of the viscous fluid. According to an international team of researchers, sugar molecules in honey move like how cars move in a traffic jam - molecules can change lane but cannot move forward very far... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 04:36:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Propolis May Prevent Bone Damage by Anti-Epileptic Drug MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Propolis May Prevent Bone Damage by Anti-Epileptic Drug Fish Liver Oil and Propolis as Protective Natural Products Against the Effect of the Anti-Epileptic Drug Valproate on Immunological Markers of Bone Formation in Rats Epilepsy Research, 2008 May 1 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/05/propolis-may-prevent-bone-damage-by.html The aim of this work was to investigate the protective role of fish liver oil and propolis against the effect of the drug valproate that is widely used for treatment of epilepsy... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 00:15:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Africanized bee questions In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10805092248u1155d441xb40169114dffd28f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I have no desire to get into the small cell debate, however I will address an excellent question raised by Jim: but his claims were > based upon either 48-hr or 24-hr passive mite drop counts > > his drop counts cannot even be compared with the standard > "72-hr drop and divide by 3" approach I sincerely apologize if I was not clear. All but one count was in the 48-hr range. All count periods were measured to the nearest half hour, and adjusted to the 24-hr equivalent. I find that there is a problem with 72-hr counts due to hive trash making mites difficult to count, and sometimes giving them the opportunity to crawl off the trash-strewn sticky board. I used the 48-hr period intentionally, and other reviewers of my protocol had no problem with it. I doubt that weather was a factor in the counts, since there was not much weather change during the test period, and since weather would be expected to affect all colony mite drops equally. As Jim stated in a previous post, the passive mite drop is generally considered the "Gold Standard" in measuring varroa levels. I followed his advice in designing the trial--thinking that the data would not be questioned. I also did not present means and sd's, in order to allow readers to inspect each colony's individual data, and to draw their own conclusions. I did not run the trial to "prove" anything. I simply wanted to collect some sorely-missing rigorous data from a controlled trial. I am as curious as the next beekeeper, and willing to due the hard work to get answers. This trial was unfunded, and again I apologize if any part of the protocol was not to everyone's standards. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 05:41:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Re: Plan Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Brian & All, Its always good to have a plan B. I looked into native pollinators a decade ago as a possible replacement for honey bees(documented in archives) After several years of research I learned many things not pointed out by the USDA-ARS in Utah when I started. The article was on target but only touched lightly on why the project will have poor results in large areas or row crops. The*if its not a crop either spray it or disc it*mentality will be hard to change. I had to chuckle at the sitting a block of wood on a fence post with holes drilled and the first season half the holes were filled with native pollinators. Protecting our native pollinators is a good thing but native pollinators will never be able to replace honey bees due to the numbers needed in large areas of crops. The main reason ( not brought up in artticle) is that in some crops the weather is so bad during pollination that the pollination all takes place on an afternoon or two even though thousands of hives have been in the field for weeks. In perfect weather with a long bloom native pollinators might compete. Mason bees have got parasite issues never spoke of by those pushing mason bees. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 09:25:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Plan Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: >Mason bees have got parasite issues never spoke of by those pushing mason bees. Not only that, but if native pollinators rise to significant numbers, they will become a large host base for these and other parasites. It is hard enough to control pathogens in managed bee colonies. What will you do if nosema species run amok among the various native pollinators? -- which, by the way, are far less studied than honey bees. Will you administer fumigillin to bees in stumps? I worked for a spell for a guy that raises wax moth larvae for sale as fish bait. Believe me, they have problems, too. He was especially concerned about the effect of Bt corn meal in their diet. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 07:08:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Africanized Bee Questions MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, On May 9, 2008, at 8:51 PM, Dee Lusby wrote: > Would think all testers would give same results......If not then why? I would say, assuming of course, that the USA data base is incorrect because of possibly where the data was collected for the base. If collected in the Americas then they could be dead wrong as to their linage. A new data base needs to be constructed to give more accurate results in future testing. God Bless, Keith MAlone **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 11:17:25 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid Treatme nts Reduce Nosema Spore Counts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Keith Malone writes: A new data base needs to be constructed to give > more accurate results in future testing. Reply: Yes, most definitely. For since the beginnning when the data bases have been done, with many stating that they are localized data bases, and bees sent in from other areas need to be looked at differently testing wise and compared to their own areas taken from (aka even the original FABIS system), they still try to compare bees from other geographical regions to their own, knowing ahead of time the results are breached before even done. It's like comparing apples to oranges, instead of oranges to oranges. You cannot lump all bees in USA into one standard base. It simply won't work. You need it broken out region by region and latitiude to latitude and longitude to longitude. But what do common beekeepers know when politics is basically being played instead of actual analysis in a way. But should we even talk such things......unless we really want problems solved! Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 13:15:51 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Kitt Peak fire area burning again! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Okay, Question for you older beekeepers in western states. For some reason I have just now learned another fire has started and already in two canyons having gone over the saddle of one to next on the mountain range Kitt Peak Observatory is located upon. It got 6 of my biggest yards last year and so far now two of same again, that were just now getting back to making honey on own for this year, that I had to feed last years fall crop to, to carry overwinter until this year. How much damage can fires do back to back? Have any of you been thru back to back fires were ground vegetation was coming on good again? Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 10:07:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Terramyacin for the heck of it? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > >Thanks Peter for your well written thoughts on "to treat or not to treat". > Hi All, Re treating for AFB, I've tried it all over the years--winter/spring prophylactic treatments, dusting, waxed paper bags, grease patties, in syrup, etc. I also used to advertise and sell hygienic queens in the early 1980's, and have used Minnesota Hygienic stock. All methods can work. To me it boiled down to cost/benefit analysis, plus the market for my products (nucs and honey), plus landowner concern on the organic farms upon which I place my bees. Several years ago, as I was going down the grocery isle, with a cart filled with Crisco and sugar to make up grease patties, I was struck by just how much twice-yearly grease patties actually cost me. I compared that cost, plus the labor, to the loss of burning the percentage of colonies that come down with AFB without treatment. I also considered the impact of antibiotics on the beneficial gut flora in my bees. The main factor was that I sell hundreds of nucs a year, many to hobbyists. I don't want those nucs to seed new colonies with AFB spores from combs in which the active disease is merely suppressed by antibiotics. So now I am DILIGENT in detecting any AFB, and practice "shake and bake" (check the archives). I use TM in the new shook colonies, and sometimes in a yard that may have had an exposure to the disease. I sterilize my boxes in a hot wax tank at 325F. I incorporate much hygienic stock in my breeding program. AFB generally shows up when bees are nutritionally stressed, so I try to maintain good nutrition at all times. In every yard, if I see any colony lagging, I tear into the broodnest to carefully inspect for ABF. Also, any colony with a spotty brood pattern gets a close inspection. Since I nuc up all my colonies each spring, I and my son are able to inspect every single brood frame in my operation at that time each year--this really helps. I also have a nose like a bloodhound for the smell of AFB. These practices have worked well for me, and I know that my colonies are regularly exposed to AFB. Dr Mark Goodwin's book that Bob mentioned is an excellent resource--I've been trying to get around to publishing a review of it. With the approval in the US of Tylosin for AFB treatment, the situation has changed in commercial operations. Much of it is used off label--as a prophylactic. Since, unlike TM, it has a long life in the stored honey, it is effective at suppressing the symptoms of AFB. Soon, however, AFB spores are spread through the entire operation by drifting, robbing, frame swapping, and honey supers. At that point, the beekeeper is stuck with needing in perpetuity to regularly dose his colonies with Tylosin to keep AFB in check. This works for some, but I personally don't want to be in that situation. If one has regularly used an antibiotic, and decides to go "clean," expect to take frame losses as you burn equipment until you have cleaned up your operation. Hygienic bees will help a great deal, as will regular comb rotation. The question that you will ask is, What if I just see one cell of AFB in a colony, can I just remove that frame and treat?" I've experimented informally with this method, since it is so dang attractive, but did not find it to be effective. I now burn the entire multistory colony if I find a single cell of AFB. Extreme, yes, but it works well in practice. Last season, I finally cleared up an AFB infection that had spread after a truck wreck and the resultant robbing of some infected colonies. It took burning some 70 deep brood chambers worth of frames (the bees were shook and saved). This year, we have just finished inspecting every single frame in our operation, and haven't (knock on wood) seen a single cell of AFB! Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 18:53:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid Treatme nts Reduce Nosema Spore Counts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 10 May 2008 11:17:25 -0700, Dee Lusby wrote: " But what do common beekeepers know when politics is basically being played instead of actual analysis in a way. But should we even talk such things......unless we really want problems solved!" So if I hear what you're saying is that your bees are not really AHB genetics but rather there is a possible conspiracy of sorts within our government at not only the state but federal level to incorrectly define some peoples bees as containing AHB genetics. You know come to think of it there's been an awful lot of UFO sightings too recently in your region that our government will not acknowledge as real either. Why do you suppose they would do such a thing Dee? We really do live in bizarro times with dying bats and missing bees and so on.... What are they hiding? Another posting just the other day noted that researchers had hidden the fact the Nosema Ceranae has been in the USA for over a decade. An then there is the Bayer conspiracy known as the Dirty Seven. Who knew that beekeeping was full of such secrets and intrigue? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 19:21:01 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Terramyacin for the heck of it? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/05/2008 23:17:32 GMT Standard Time, randy@RANDYOLIVER.COM writes: AFB generally shows up when bees are nutritionally stressed Thought that was EFB. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 21:26:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Terramyacin for the heck of it? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit randy oliver wrote: >Dr Mark Goodwin's book that Bob mentioned is an excellent resource Here is a free pamphlet with some of the best photos of bee diseases I have ever seen Goodwin, R.M., Taylor, M.A., 2003. "Diagnosis of Common Honey Bee Brood Diseases and Parasitic Mite Syndrome". Produced under control for the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry by Dr Mark Goodwin and Michelle Taylor of the Horticulture and Food Research Institute of New Zealand Ltd http://tinyurl.com/3famly **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 19:08:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Jim & All, I find it very interesting Jim considers the book fiction without ever reading the book. The future testing being done on sub lethal effects of imidacloprid should provide findings U.S. beekeepers can approach Bayer with. I now have got a documented case with lab results of an imidacloprid kill in France. Indeed baby steps against a chemical giant but in my opinion beekeepers can not simply ignore the neonicotinods. In my area farmers are planting imidacloprid treated seed corn for the third time on the same field! What are the imidaclprid levels in the pollen of those plants! If Jim believes that some of the hardest to kill pest insects are easily killed with a imidacloprid systemic pesticide an yet by some yet by Bayer to be explained reason honey bees are not effected then I have got some ocean front property to sell you in Missouri. Commercial beeks have got a horse in the race. We need some relief from sub lethal problems from neonicotinoids. Jim Fischer and the research community are not seeing the bottom line shrink due to losses. Growers should also be concerned because growers may have to choose between using neonicotinoids or getting bees for pollination. commercial beeks are in a learning mode right now. Many doing pollination have sent letters to growers asking for a complete list of all products used. David Hackenbergs letter was four pages long. Example. Hives were killed in neonicotinoid treated pumpkins (2006) and Dave had hives die right after pumpkins. The next year he was talked into going back however because the USDA-ARS felt the neonicotinoids the grower used could not be the cause of the die off ( based on Bayer research) David returned (2007) but charged the grower * double*. After leaving the pumpkins those hives crashed. Now David will not pollinate neonicotinoid treated pumpkins and raising pumpkins without bees is not profitable. Guess what? None of the rest of us will either! Now we wonder how long will it take for the neonicotinoids to drop to a level after the grower stops use to be safe for beekeepers to bring bees into pollinate. In Florida beekeepers have always produced Orange honey. Now they worry and wonder which year will the systemic pesticdes from every year use reach the problem level while their bees are on the orange flow. The former *largest producer of orange honey in the world* told me this spring that the use of systemic pesticides on orange could end the production of orange honey for beekeepers. He spoke of the bee kills for years with the Bayer systemic product temik. Which is still being used on Orange (instead of banned like in the U.K. for all uses) and still contaminating Florida ground water. Thanks for the support Stan as speaking out is never a popular position. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 21:21:31 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Is Water Power for real and needed? Especially for commercial beekeepers! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just had to post this here, especially with gasoline going higher in price and many beekeepers drive a lot to get and work their bees. Dee A. Lusby Subject: run your car on water - its here To: You will be shocked - a Florida man who invented a gas and a car that runs on WATER: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMovXzVOzc4 So why don't we have the whole world and every government taking this and do away with 90% of the oil price madness? BECAUSE OF POWER, CONTROL & MONEY .... lots of money... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 21:30:13 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid Treatme nts Reduce Nosema Spore Counts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Brian writes: > So if I hear what you're saying is that your bees are > not really AHB genetics but rather there is a > possible conspiracy of sorts within our government at not > only the state but federal level to > incorrectly define some peoples bees as containing AHB > genetics. Reply: Brian I didn't say what you wrote above. But until I see lab analysis with same results instead of all different, then what does one believe is actually being seen? Actually if you look at early writings, all races in USA are in part africanized due to imports over the years several times by our own government. This I am not denying as happening, but it is interesting others are putting such information aside concernign early repeated imports, and saying that their bees are good european and on certain days they are probably just like mine in working. Yet here I am an old woman working bees like I always have since a teenager. So the bee work out here must be woman's work now and not for men!! Dee A.Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 02:00:08 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: > I find it very interesting Jim considers the > book fiction without ever reading the book. Ah Bob, YOU may not have a copy yet, but review copies have been distributed to "the press", and I am a member of "the press". The book blames CCD directly on imidacloprid, a theory nearly as outdated as the "cell phone" theory promoted by the UK Newspaper "The Guardian" and promptly debunked by the German newspaper "Der Speigel". The book promotes ignorant nonsense. It may doom some amount of funding that would otherwise be provided to find the ACTUAL cause(s) of CCD. As such, it is not merely nonsense, it is an insult to responsible beekeepers and ethical researchers everywhere. But no, as it happens, I've not yet read the book. My spies and informants are legion and are everywhere, including some who got review copies. These are people I trust, people with experience, education, skills, and judgment. They have read the book cover to cover. I'll likely read it when one of them sends me their copy, so I'll still read it before you. :) > If Jim believes... Jim does not "believe" anything. "Belief" and "faith" are not appropriate modes of thought in this area of inquiry, or in any area of inquiry undertaken outside of Sunday school. What we need here is conclusions based upon hard data, and the actual data on CCD points us AWAY from pesticides and towards pathogens. > We need some relief from sub lethal problems > from neonicotinoids. Funny how absolutely no one with any credentials at all agrees with this view, isn't it? Here's a typical quote: "Pesticides can't be an explanation for why organic beekeepers are losing their colonies." (Dr. May Berenbaum in "Science", May 18 2007) Note that the quote is from a year ago. Old news. Very common knowledge by now, even among the least well-read of us. > Hives were killed in neonicotinoid treated > pumpkins (2006)... I don't doubt for a moment that pesticide kills have happened, and will continue to happen with every possible pesticide, including the forms of neonicotinoids that are sprayed by the grower. But symptoms of neonicotinoid pesticide exposure, even low-level exposure from which the hives can recover, include cases of "the shakes", something never seen in CCD colonies. Let me quote the same article again. Recall that this was written a year ago, and published in "Science", which tends to be read closely by scientists of all stripes and loyalties, including a large number with an axe to grind about pesticides in general. "There are few data that imidacloprid harms bees in fields, however. And other lines of evidence argue against blaming these pesticides. In 1999, France banned imidacloprid after beekeepers complained that it was causing up to 40% of their colonies to die. Yet the colonies don't seem to be doing much better now, notes Yves Le Conte of the Laboratoire Biologie et Protection de L'Abeille, INRA, in Avignon, France. And in the United States, there has been no spike in imidacloprid usage that might account for the recent colony collapse." So, despite all the attention focused on imidacloprid, no one has found even a vague correlation between it and CCD. If they would have, headlines would have resulted. Big headlines. > Thanks for the support Stan as speaking out > is never a popular position. That's one of the really neat things about science - it is not a popularity contest. One either has data or one does not. People can drone on and on about "lowered immune response" until they are blue in the face, but they must first address the fact that honey bees don't have much of an "immune system" to weaken. The honey bee genome project revealed that bees have fewer known immune system genes than the much simpler fruit fly or malaria mosquito do. > Jim Fischer and the research community are > not seeing the bottom line shrink due to losses. Yes, it is interesting that no one in the "research community" has pointed any accusing fingers in Bayer's direction, isn't it? While I have been very critical of much of the CCD work done to date, and likely have been crossed off a few Christmas card lists as a result, everyone with the education and experience to be able to evaluate the data tends to agree that, much as we'd like to find an easy answer related to pesticides, we can't find more than trace levels, and inconsistent sets of trace levels, providing no correlation with incidence of CCD. You don't have to trust my word, you can ask Mary Ann Fraizer, who is riding heard on the pesticide testing. Sure, she wants to continue looking, and she'll need cash to do it, but she hasn't pointed any fingers yet, and she has run more toxicology samples than anyone through some very complex tests. And since you want to get "call me out by name", I'll point out that the only fingers being pointed at Bayer are fingers that also mix up homebrew potions for varroa that are much less-than legal. The stuff that Mary Ann >>IS<< finding includes a disgusting list of stuff that only a large beekeeper with a very small and underdeveloped sense of ethics would use. "Judge that ye be judged" is the appropriate warning here. (Matthew 7:1... [and Mets 12, Reds 6 today!]) But not to worry, even the home-brew potions and chemical cocktails don't correlate with CCD. CCD seems to be caused by a mix of exotic invasive pathogens that came to our shores in the same "world trade" that has turned our once powerful nation into a pauper state. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 03:22:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Stan_Sandler?= Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >"Evidence that Colony Collapse Disorder Is a Disease >Expert: Pesticide Poisoning Wouldn't Roll Through Colonies This Way" I went to the Bayer website, and noticed that they no longer claim on the Premise label that the imidacloprid kills termites by the "Premise plus nature" *trademarked* effect by encouraging diseases. However they do still have the following quote on their website (now the "Domino" trademarked effect): "Premise kills termites on contact but also has the added advantage of the transfer of toxicant to termites that have not been exposed to the Premise Treated Zone. As a result of normal social behaviour termites groom and feed each other and by this interaction termites transfer Premise amongst other termites from within the colony - this is referred to as the Domino Effect . Premise Termite Elimination is also assisted by nature. In areas of lower concentration of Premise, termites coming in contact with Premise eventually stop grooming and feeding themselves and die of fungal infection from soil." So, the colonies die of fungus. It looks like a fungus, kills like a fungus... For a really interesting look at how imidacloprid get transferred around in a colony of social insects that practise trophyllaxis just as honeybees do, I would suggest a look at this url, also linked to Bayer's Premise site: http://www.premiseguarantee.com.au/information/documents/Colony_Transfer.pdf Stan **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 04:44:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Propolis Reverses Oxidative Alterations to Liver, Kidneys MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Propolis Reverses Oxidative Alterations to Liver, Kidneys Propolis Reverses Acetaminophen Induced Acute Hepatorenal Alterations: A Biochemical and Histopathological Approach Journal Archives of Pharmacal Research, Issue Volume 31, Number 4, Published online: 1 May 2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/05/propolis-reverses-oxidative-alterations.html Abstract: The present study has been conducted to evaluate the curative effect of propolis extract, a honey bee-hive product, against acetaminophen (APAP) induced oxidative stress and dysfunction in liver and kidney... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 08:15:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: electromagnetic fields MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable got this from a friend in Scotland: =20 Good evening All The demise of the honeybee has been associated with electromagnetic=20 radiation ... short pdf file looking into this possibility can be=20 downloaded from our web site at ...=20 _http://www.moraybeekeepers.co.uk/downloads.htm_=20 (http://www.moraybeekeepers.co.uk/downloads.htm)=20 /Extract/ .......... HAARP is the abbreviation for a military project (High-frequency Active Auroral Research Project), that is used by the U.S. Air Force and the =20 U.S. Navy. Near the city Gakona in Alaska stand 180 towers in an uninhabited area,=20 which form an antenna complex. The frequency is about 2.5 =E2=80=93 10 MHz, the w= attage is extremely high at 3 million Watts ('high power, high frequency phased=20 array radio transmitter'). =20 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 09:49:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] Sagra del Miele MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The followinw was submitted to BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu. It was edited = to remove quotes of previously posted material. -----Original Message----- From: de roeck ghislain [mailto:gderoeck@euphonynet.be] Sent: Sat 2008.05.10 16:31 To: 'Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology' Cc: frapane@tin.it Subject: RE: [BEE-L] Sagra del Miele =20 You can ask it at Francesco Panella:=20 Francesco Panella [frapane@tin.it] He is the president of a very important Italian association of = beekeepers. Kind regards, Ghislain De Roeck. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 13:28:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: electromagnetic fields MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Scientists under the control of government officials and public figures who create, utilize, and promote falsified data regarding carbon being the causative factor in the increase of our beloved Earth's temperature will retract all statements and speak the truth about HAARP, microwave technology, and the involvement of numerous governments. > Your commercial honey bee colonies that have seemingly all but disappeared have only migrated to south of the Equator. Honey bees vibrate at a much higher level than most third dimensional creatures. They are sensitive to and respond well to love and nurturing much like flowers and plants do. > Honey bee colonies no longer have resilience to human lower-conditioned thought forms, environments of low electromagnetic radiation, and the dangerous pesticides that have inundated their existence. When your commercial beekeepers learn to value the honey bees and incorporate organic approaches and applications to the construction and care of beehives, the honey bees will return. > We are the Warriors of the Light and are acutely aware of your leaders' devious plans to undermine all Spiritual Absolute Truth as we sit among them in their private meetings and listen to them scheme strategies for lustful personal gain of power and money. We have stood by and watched greed consume them as they destroy your nations. Know that we do exist and we are not threatening. We are a benevolent race. It will soon become very clear as to the importance of your acknowledgement of our existence. > Currently our command lightship known as Cathereum is technologically equipped with liquid crystal computerization capable of transporting us at great speeds Posted in HAARP, ILLUMINATI, INTERGALACTIC COMMUNICATION **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 14:42:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Emerging bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all, Again, something else I have not observed before: Bees emerging from the cell abdomen first. Before some person asks, the cells were still capped in a manner that indicates that it was not some mis-directed adult becoming trapped head first. Also the "attitude" and hairiness of the individuals was such as to indicate a bee that was emerging for the first time. Observed approx. 5 individuals during the short period (5 mins. - time passes so quickly watching bees. Any other observed this ? Regards, Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 19:09:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Terramyacin for the heck of it? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline RE: foulbrood prevention and treatment There is a world of difference between these two. The idea with prevention is that the hives never really get foulbrood. The spores may be present in numbers sufficient to initiate the infection but as soon as they germinate, the TM present in the larva's mid gut kills the vegetative stage before it can produce spores of its own. This is effective in preventing infection due to spores introduced via robbing etc. Once the colony starts to break down, it is a different matter. If the colony has AFB so bad you can smell it, putting TM on it is probably a very bad idea because the infection will appear to go away but there is just so much contaminated material that it is unlikely that hive will ever really be clean. Now, in the middle is a problematic area. Some people (not me) will advocate treating what they call a "mild infection". The problem is, how do you determine what is treatable? Some will say "if you only find a few cells". I have seen many hives where only a few cells were visible. However, if you take your hive tool and rake it across the brood, you begin to realize that there may be many more dead larvae which the bees haven't uncapped. Furthermore, as shown in the pictures, the early stage is white, and looks just like a larva dead from other causes. So, I prefer to go with the old rule: they have it or they don't. If they have it, get rid of it. If they don't, well that depends on the potential for infection and your policy on antibiotics. If you live in an area with a low incidence of AFB, probably TM is a waste of time. If you are around a lot of it, you may avoid getting it by spring and fall TM dosing. If you cannot or will not learn to inspect properly, this might be a good plan. One of the things that I hear a lot when I do an inspection is that they have never seen a hive opened up so carefully and checked so thoroughly. Many beekeepers just glance at the brood on the way to putting it in a nuc or whatever. There is a heck of a lot they don't see. If your doctor did a 30 second checkup on you once a year, you'd be wondering if you were getting your money's worth. Some people even make splits without looking at the brood at all. That is an easy way to make a bunch of sick ones out of a few. Resistance to foulbrood L. Bailey writes: The process of removing dead larvae from sealed cells has been resolved into two components of behaviour of adult bees which may be controlled by two independent, recessive characters, one for uncapping the cells and the other for removing the larvae, homozygosity for both being required for the greatest expression of these traits and hence resistance. Aggressiveness of bees was associated with resistance in these experiments but the two characters probably depend on different genetic bases because they assorted independently in crosses between susceptible and resistant strains of bees. The efficiency of these hereditary qualities of resistance is affected by other circumstances; young bees of strains selected for resistance are most efficient at removing dead larvae, but when they are a few weeks old they remove dead larvae only when nectar is being gathered abundantly by foraging bees. This may explain the spontaneous recovery of some diseased colonies that has been noticed when bees have been collecting large quantities of nectar. Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 22:08:23 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan said: > For a really interesting look at how imidacloprid > get transferred around in a colony of social > insects that practise trophyllaxis just as > honeybees do... But if this was happening, then there would be more than the occasional random trace level of any pesticides found in "CCD hives". The pesticide would be very very detectable at high levels in dead insects, stored food, and so on. One can chant "sub-lethal effects" all one likes, but there would still be a need to explain the sub-detectable levels of any single pesticide or class of pesticides in the samples taken from the affected hives. In these days of parts-per billion and parts-per-trillion, one has to at least admit that anything with an impact of the bees would have to show up as measurable, at least at the trace level. When something is sub-detectable with modern gear, it is not just "sub-lethal", it simply is not there at all. Without a consistent appearance of pesticides in hives with CCD-like symptoms, the data at hand tends to compellingly exonerate imidacloprid specifically and neonicotinoids in general. The data that exonerates rather than implicates, while still not yet formally published, has been clearly explained and updated at multiple beekeeper meetings over the past year. If anyone has any data conflicting with the data openly discussed, they have not mentioned it in public. The lack of divergent data or analysis has been total. So, call, raise, or fold, but further bluffing is not going to work here. At some point in poker, one needs to have some cards that are worth a darn, and at some point in science, one needs to have some data that is worth a darn. The time has come and gone several times for someone, anyone to do more than sputter and accuse. So, show us the data that links a pesticide to CCD in any way. If you can't do that, please fold your hand, as this is a high-stakes game where many farms and livelihoods have been wagered. No one can expect the group to buy into a claim that something that cannot even be detected at the parts-per-trillion level is somehow still present in "CCD hives", and is the proximate cause of the problem. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 11:20:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Terramyacin for the heck of it? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >Thought that was EFB. Hi Chris, Pretty much any disease is more likely when bees are nutritionally stressed. My personal observations when I looked into hygienic bees and AFB years ago is that colonies with AFB-loaded combs would appear disease free when there was a good pollen flow, but would show signs of AFB when nutritionally stressed. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 22:39:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: africanized bee questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit interesting others are putting such information aside concernign early repeated imports, and saying that their bees are good european and on certain days they are probably just like mine in working. Nobody is putting the info aside. It's just that they see it differently. As I posted earlier this week: Honey bees from the M group were introduced into what is now the U.S. in the 1600’s. Between 1859 and 1922, seven more races of bees were introduced into the country, including the well-known Italian, Carniolan, and Caucasian bees. Cyprian, Egyptian, Syrian and three races of African bees eventually were introduced into the country, as well. In the early 1990’s, M and C lineages could be found in southern and western lines, but A was not around. In plain English: when they checked bees in the 1990s they found that there were descendants of the north European black bees (M) and the Italian/Carniolan type (C) but no traces of African lines (A). These probably failed to thrive, unlike the lines that Dr. Kerr brought into Brazil, which multiplied like jack rabbits and eventually ended up in your neighborhood. But it isn't the temperament that is the worst feature of Africans, although that would make it impossible to keep them in MY neighborhood but the fact that they swarm themselves silly and don't make enough honey to pay the bills. Unless you live in a hut or have some other source of income aside from honey or pollination fees. By the way, there is a yard of 24 hives a couple hundred yards from my house. People walk past it every day with their dogs and babies. No one has ever been bothered by those bees. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 23:34:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Stan_Sandler?= Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees Comments: To: bee-quick@BEE-QUICK.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, and James in particular; Your posting in reply to mine was full of rhetoric, but did not actually address anything in my post with facts, which is rather below your usual calibre of post (I must admit I DO enjoy your rhetoric, but I also like it when you post information that you have a great knack for obtaining.) Did you even read the paper at the url I posted? First of all, I don't believe that I have ever said that imidacloprid is the cause of CCD. But I do believe that it affects bees in very small amounts, and I know that in Prince Edward Island where about one in every five acres gets it about one year out of three, and it has a half life in the soil of about a year, that it is definitely in the environment. That being said, I have lost over a third of 3,200 hives this spring, and I am NOT saying that I have CCD, nor am I blaming it on imidacloprid. I was too late getting my mite treatments on in the fall and went in to winter with not enough winter bees. Yards that were treated earlier fared not too bad. But, if you had read the paper, you would have noticed that the termites in the colony did not tremor and shake and become incapacitated right away with the tiny dosage they received (so tiny it is frightening). They continued to share food and spread the insecticide to their hivemates. And Bayer has claimed for years now that this weakens the colonies and make them susceptible to other things. I do believe that imidacloprid caused the collapse of some of my colonies in the past when mucc higher amounts per acre were being used. I do not think that it acceptable to use something with such a long half life. >If anyone has any data conflicting with the data openly >discussed, they have not mentioned it in public. The >lack of divergent data or analysis has been total. I have no data pertinent to CCD, but I have posted data on imidacloprid. And I didn't use a lot of rhetoric, I just send the table showing that the year after potatoes were treated in New Brunswick, bees were picking up imidacloprid at a few parts per billions from nectar and pollen of canola grown the next year. Bayer never published this data and has never released the results of a full summer of testing my hives in canola following potatoes the next year in PEI. This infuriates me and I wish I knew what to do about it. It would not cost anything to the bee research community to make Bayer make public the research they paid for. > So, show >us the data that links a pesticide to CCD in any way. > >If you can't do that, please fold your hand, as this >is a high-stakes game where many farms and livelihoods >have been wagered. Well, I am not trying to link a pesticide to CCD. I just think this pesticide is problem, and that it has some rather nasty sublethal effects that are not helping our bees health. But, I don't feel the need to fold my hand, because I am not playing a game. Moreover, I have my operation and my livelihood and the livelihood of several people that work here on the line, so I do not appreciate that comment. What would be useful is advice on how to make Bayer release the data from that study. I have repeatedly asked to researcher at the University (Jim Kemp), and I have sent letters to the Pest Management Regulatory Agency. Is the University ethically involved? Is it "science" to just publish the results you want and bury the rest? Stan **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 00:17:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Emerging bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the early 1980s we conducted extensive tests of brood survival - marking patches, recording initial content of each cell (e.g., egg, larvae by day of age, pupae by day of age, nectar, pollen, or empty) and then re-examining 14 days later. We had to uncap pupae to determine age. We saw pupae that were head down in cells - not often, but enough to note that it happened. We didn't see these emerge - so we didn't know whether they would have survived if they'd gone to term. So, Peter apparently saw some of these emerging backwards. My question, in order to do this, did other bees open the cells? Jerry **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 07:24:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Emerging bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My thoughts here are,,, * The inability of the bee to chew itself out makes this unlikely. * It would perhaps be impossible for the bee to exit backwards, with that end still being wrapped in a cocoon. My best guess explaining the observation,,, A young bees first job after hatching is to clean its own cell out. I suspect that young bee 'just hatched', would also be very tired, spending more time cleaning out its own cell, and occasionally opting to rest motionless inside its cell where it feels most comfortable, as any "baby" would perhaps want to feel secure and rest up. ;) Best Wishes, Joe Some one calculates that an acre of buckwheat yields fourteen pounds of honey daily. -Home, Farm and Garden(1869) http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 04:59:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: China's Honey Product Output Declines Markedly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII China's Honey Product Output Declines Markedly China Industry Daily News, 12 May 2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/05/chinas-honey-product-output-declines.html China's honey product output will decline considerably in 2008, according to the latest information released by the China Chamber of Commerce for Import and Export of Medicines and Health Products. Some honey processing enterprises are now faced with serious raw material supply shortages, which are likely to affect domestic sales and exports of honey products. Insiders estimate that the domestic honey product price will be driven up further by the increasing market demand and the shortage of raw materials this year. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:46:28 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: electromagnetic fields MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The demise of the honeybee has been associated with > electromagnetic radiation... Really? Well, there was some very wide-eyed hype spread around in the press for a while, but it was quickly debunked. I would offer that the issue has gotten a great deal of attention, but the claims made have been found to be groundless. > short pdf file looking into this possibility can be > downloaded ...and it says for 5 Euros more, they will sell similar pamphlets with "more information". :) > HAARP is the abbreviation for a military project While the US Air Force and US Navy are involved, this is science without any actual "military" application, unless one has been watching too many James Bond movies, and confuses understanding the ionosphere and Aurora with having some sort of weapons-system implications. The number of agencies with overlapping oversight responsibilities is large. The list is here: http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/osite.html With so many civilian "overseers", one can't really call this a "military project" at all. > the wattage is extremely high at 3 million Watts 3 million watts is nothing compared to even a typical thunderstorm. Remember the movie "Back To The Future", where a single lightning bolt was said to contain 1.2 GigaWatts? Not an exaggeration at all. That would be 1,200,000,000 watts, 400 times the 3,000,000 watts HAARP can produce. Individual "puny looking" lightning bolts commonly carry 100 million watts each. Entire thunderstorm clouds can make hundreds of such lightning bolts in a half hour. (It is hard to measure the power of lighting, as it has a annoying habit of vaporizing the equipment that measures the lightning. Most estimates are based upon how much metal can be melted by each bolt that hits very fat "lightning rod" cables.) HAARP is laughably puny in terms of wattage. Paranoid people have accused the project of attempting "weather control", but HAARP can't even muster up enough power to make one lousy lightning bolt. (If you do the math, a table-top "science fair" Tesla coil needs about 1000 watts per foot of "lightning" discharge, and this is under optimal conditions with a nice fat ground within a few feet of the toy.) > HAARP transmits primarily on 2 frequencies: 3.39 MHZ and 6.99 MHZ. Yeah, right next to the 40 meter and 80 meter ham radio bands. And this is the big-give away that the HAARP project can't be harming bees. If it was, there would be a pattern of problems with bees at locations near various types of transmitters, such as Ham Radio. Here's the US frequency allocation chart: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf Remember, the power of any radio signal decreases with the square of the distance from the broadcasting antenna (the "inverse square law"), so you can get much more actual RF by being close to a less powerful transmitter than you can by being even a moderate distance away from a powerful one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law Just as a practical example, WCBS AM (at 880 kHz) radio in NYC broadcasts with 50 kilowatts of transmitter power, so here in NYC, the effective power of WCBS is much much greater than the effective ("radiated") power of the HAARP project antennas all the way up in Alaska. The HAARP transmitters may be 60 times the power of WCBS, but WCBS is right here in town. As another example, the Coast Guard LORAN-C transmitter at Station George in Washington state operates at 1.6 million watts of broadcast power, as have many of the other LORAN-C transmitters. (LORAN is a pre-GPS navigational scheme for boats, and has been in use for decades.) Once again, actually "doing the math" clearly illustrates why the phrase "Do The Math" is such an appropriate response to so many extraordinary claims. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:14:07 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Beeswax 'Ear Candles' Used to Clear Congestion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The bulk of the "apitherapy blog" blog-spam blindly posted to Bee-L in a transparent attempt to manufacture "links" back to that blog is harmless enough, but ethical beekeepers should stay far away from "ear candles": http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_098.html http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/candling.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ear_candling http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8849790?dopt=Abstract They do nothing, and while they might somehow be "relaxing" to those who can overcome the prudent alarm one tends to feel whenever there is an open flame near one's hair or face, it is all fun and games until someone burns an eardrum. That's why the FDA seizes and destroys ear candles whenever they run across them: http://www.fda.gov/ora/fiars/ora_import_ia7701.html **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:22:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Malone writes: It seems to me that the ones dancing around this issue are those who are assuming that small cell has everything to do with SCB, when it is everything working together that makes the difference. The success or lack of success of anything in nature may well be the result of many factors working together, but the whole idea behind any scientific analysis is to isolate single known factors to see how much and what kind of effect they might contribute to the overall picture. That is a necessary and worth while persuit. It is not dancing around the issue to want to see proof that something like small cell contributes to overall success, and if so how much, or if there are other factors that have not been taken into account that can just as reasonably explain that success or failure for that matter. To me lumping it all together is dancing around the issue because the issue is: Does small cell really contribute much if anything to successful beekeeping or varroa resistance and if so how much? This takes work involving carefully setting up experiments and trials with complete detachment from what the results might be. Dee writes: Would think all testers would give same results......If not then why? There is an answer to this question, Dee. If you want to know what it is though you will likely have to dig for it yourself. It might not be what you want to hear though so the question is do you really want to know? One of those tests might be wrong and it just might be the one that supports your theory. Me, I hope you have found the silver bullet, but you haven't proven it yet. Best wishes to all, Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 14:33:57 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Did you even read the paper at the url I posted? Yes. The paper said, very clearly: "In the first experiment, a worker (donor) was topically applied with a droplet containing a mixture of 500 ppm radioactive imidacloprid..." > Your posting in reply to mine was full of rhetoric I was trying to be gentle, and give a hint about the massive scale of difference between "not detectable at the parts-per-billion or parts-per- trillion" level, which is what we are finding in samples taken from CCD cases, and a whopping massive dose of 500 ppm (parts-per-million) directly applied to a termite. You didn't take my hint, so you said: > but did not actually address anything in my post > with facts So I'll be less subtle - you described the dose given the termites as: > the tiny dosage they received (so tiny it is frightening) How could anyone call a 500 ppm dose applied directly to a single termite "tiny"? To go further, the scheme where "Premise" kills a termite colony requires a crucial step to never fail. The termites that pick up the stuff have to BRING IT BACK TO THE COLONY. This means that the pesticide would be found in EVERY colony of termites killed by the pesticide. It also means that the pesticide had better not cause any navigation problems or create any tendency for termites to abandon their nest, as they want the maximum number of foragers to complete their foraging missions and deliver the poison to the nest. Does this sound like "CCD" to anyone? It sure doesn't to me. But let's go on - let me provide some more facts. Please recall that you demanded facts. :) For those who didn't pay attention at the time, Stan is a beekeeper from Prince Edward Island, where the sailing is wonderful once the fog lifts at about 10am every morning, and the steamed clams are cheap enough to feast upon every night. Stan petitioned for the ban of "Admire" (imidacloprid used in a ground drench on potatoes) in the 2001 timeframe. Jim Kemp of U of PEI and Dick Rogers of Wildwood Labs did a residue study that found "no exposure" (residues below the detection limit, which at that time was 0.3 parts-per-billion) for bees foraging in fields rotated from potatoes where Admire had been used. They did a follow up multifactor study of what was actually affecting bee health and cited a long list of management issues impacting Stan's bees, which in sum offered a much more plausible explanation of the problems Stan was having than any sort of pesticide kill from ground drench sprayed on potato fields. Sharon Labchuk, the person who spread the oft-repeated misinformed and incorrect claims that "organic beekeepers" weren't suffering from CCD also comes from PEI, so it seems fairly clear that there are a number of people on PEI who feel that they have unsettled business with growers over their choices of pesticides, yet lack any data other than data that undercuts their claims. There's the facts as they stand - I am happy to offer what I can. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:10:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim Fischer writes: The honey bee genome project revealed that bees have fewer known immune system genes than the much simpler fruit fly or malaria mosquito do. Could this be a matter that would require thinking out side the box as far as what constitutes an immune system goes? The ability of honeybees to fight pathogens of all kinds involves much more than antibodies being produced to kill foreign organisms that enter the body. Conceivably there could be any number of ways that a pesticide even at very low levels could alter some aspect of a bees or a colonys ability to deal with the constant onslaught of destructive organisms. Propolis comes to mind; the ability to maintain constant temperature and humidity in the hive. There is the antimicrobial quality of honey itself that must be a part of the whole disease fighting system. Also anything that adversely effects a honeybees overall vigor. There must be many more factors that I am not thinking of right now other than those specific genetic factors that the honeybee genome project conventionally considers to comprise the immune system of a given insect. Any one or a combination of these could, if altered in some large or small way, reduce a colonys disease fighting ability. It may not be proven that imidacloprid is a cause or a contributing factor in CCD. There are some very good reasons for some beneficiaries of it in the ag community, not to mention the chemical industry, to not have it be shown to be a problem for beekeepers, and it is an insecticide, so I would not be too eager to completely check it off the list. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 17:00:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: A Spring Without Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim is correct, a DROPLET of 500 ppm imidacloprid would be an enormous contact dose to a termite. We've done extensive contact toxicity testing, had many long conversations with Larry Atkins before he passed away. Dr. Atkins discovered, and we soon came to the same conclusion, that one has to keep the test droplet size VERY small - or else just the carrier chemical alone will be toxic. In this case, the carrier was ethanol, which in itself is toxic to bees. There's always a carrier chemical - you have to dissolve the pesticide in something to form a droplet, and its usually NOT water. Larry advised using nano quantities (dispensed from rather pricey pippettes). We agree. We've fielded many calls from labs trying to use Larry's contact toxicity assay - typically they use far to large a droplet, and end up killing a sizable number of the control insects (contact droplet same size as test droplet, but without the pesticide). Jerry **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 18:00:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Stan_Sandler?= Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >So I'll be less subtle - you described the dose >given the termites as: > >> the tiny dosage they received (so tiny it is frightening) > >How could anyone call a 500 ppm dose applied >directly to a single termite "tiny"? That is the dose the researcher applied. The dosages that the termites received by trophyllaxis were tiny. The only termite that did not show symptoms had 0.1 ng in its gut. The termites with 0.2 ng or more all showed symptoms after two hours. ng, nanogram, a trillionth of a gram. TINY. >But let's go on - let me provide some more facts. >Please recall that you demanded facts. :) >Jim Kemp of U of PEI and Dick Rogers of Wildwood Labs did a >residue study that found "no exposure" (residues below the >detection limit, which at that time was 0.3 parts-per-billion) >for bees foraging in fields rotated from potatoes where Admire >had been used. They did indeed even find some residue in clover leaves the third year after the potatoes. But grain was following potatoes. What I am saying is that when Jim Kemp looked at canola growing the year immediately after potatoes he did indeed find not only detectable, but quantifiable amounts in nectar, pollen and honey. And this has not been published. I have the table he gave me when he proposed to study my bees on canola, and I have posted it to the bee-l. >They did a follow up multifactor study of what was actually >affecting bee health and cited a long list of management >issues impacting Stan's bees, which in sum offered a much >more plausible explanation of the problems Stan was having >than any sort of pesticide kill from ground drench sprayed >on potato fields. They did not cite management issues impacting MY bees. They looked at management issues on PEI in general. However, unlike PEI in general, I had almost no AFB, we do not have tracheal mites, varroa was not a problem in my hives. The depopulated hives did show EFB and chalkbrood, but they had usually a half dozen frames of brood and a couple of hundred adult bees. It would be unusual if they did not break down with those. In all the times I asked Dick Rogers or Jim Kemp to explain where the bees had gone I never got any reply that seemed at all plausible. >There's the facts as they stand - I am happy to offer what I can. That is the facts as you interpret them. Perhaps Dick Rogers who posts to this list and was the main person involved in the "multifactor study" would like to offer an explanation for what "management issues" cause a hive of bees in the middle of summer to have a tiny hand full of bees and a queen who have abandonned many frames of brood and moved to a corner of the hive with clean comb. He did not indicate to me at the time that nosema levels were high in my bees. He may even have still been involved when the sampling of hives on canola was done in New Brunswick and could corroborate the information I posted (and maybe indicate why it was never published, when the study showing "no residues" got extensive discussion at the Canadian Houncil, CAPA, etc. However, he was not involved when Jim Kemp did the extensive studying of my hives on canola in PEI. When farmers started cutting down on amounts of imidacloprid by treating sets instead of injecting soil, I started having fewer problems. I do not believe that my management changed. Stan **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 20:55:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Terramyacin for the heck of it? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline according to Bailey & Ball (1991): Shaking adult bees from diseased colonies onto new combs has often been tried but the method is unreliable. In one investigation disease incidence could not be decreased below 2%; in another, 81 colonies out of 300 redeveloped disease in the following two years. The method was officially endorsed in Denmark but, after many years, American foulbrood remained the commonest honey bee disease in the country. The combs that have to be destroyed are at least as valuable as the bees. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:07:21 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: China's Honey Product Output Declines Markedly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > China's honey product output will decline considerably in 2008... > honey processing enterprises are now faced with serious raw > material supply shortages... "Raw materials" - that's an ummm... very interesting choice of terms. In other news, HFCS prices have gone up rapidly in recent months, due to the shortage of corn not turned into ethanol, prompting some vendors to switch from HFCS to beet and/or cane sugar, hence driving up the prices of all the sweeteners that China would consider desirable "raw materials" for "honey processing". http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121012103341272501.html?mod=googlenews_w sj Somehow, I see a connaction between the two reports. Call me paranoid, but in my operation, the only "raw materials" that go into my honey are flowers, sunshine, and rain. (By the way, putting "INGREDIENTS: Sunshine, Flowers, and Rain" on your honey label sells honey, and makes people smile, so feel free to steal my marketing.) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 19:38:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Terramyacin for the heck of it? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > >Shaking adult bees from diseased colonies onto new combs has often > been tried but the method is unreliable. Treating the shook colony with antibiotic during the first brood cycle helps greatly. Many of the reports of its unreliability did not use antibiotic. The shake method is not magic! Spores drift quickly between colonies, and it may take years to get infection out of your operation. However, countries that burn all diseased combs report very low incidence of the disease. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 02:33:05 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Terramyacin for the heck of it? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Shaking adult bees from diseased colonies onto new combs has often been tried but the method is unreliable. I believe the method calls for shaking bees onto undrawn foundation, not comb, without feeding. Bees digest the huge majority of foulbrood spores in their guts in an hour or two while they are making wax scales for new comb; the bees don't get an opportunity to redeposit spore-laden honey until some comb is built. I believe this method is practiced in Germany. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 00:19:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Perhaps the "Precautionary Principle" applies here. http://www.gdrc.org/u-gov/precaution-3.html This statement was drafted and finalized at a conference at the Wingspread Conference Center, Racine, Wisconsin, which took place 23-25 January 1998. The 32 authors of the statement are listed beneath the statement. The release and use of toxic substances, resource exploitation, and physical alterations of the environment have had substantial unintended consequences on human health and the environment. Some of these concerns are high rates of learning deficiencies, asthma, cancer, birth defects and species extinctions; along with global climate change, stratospheric ozone depletion; and worldwide contamination with toxic substances and nuclear materials. We believe existing environmental regulations and other decisions, particularly those based on risk assessment, have failed to adequately protect human health and the environment, as well as the larger system of which humans are but a part. We believe there is compelling evidence that damage to humans and the worldwide environment, is of such magnitude and seriousness that new principles for conducting human activities are necessary. While we realize that human activities may involve hazards, people must proceed more carefully than has been the case in recent history. Corporations, government entities, organizations, communities, scientists and other individuals must adopt a precautionary approach to all human endeavors. Therefore it is necessary to implement the Precautionary Principle: Where an activity raises threats of harm to the environment or human health, precautionary measures should be taken even if some cause and effect relationships are not fully established scientifically. In this context the proponent of an activity, rather than the public bears the burden of proof. The process of applying the Precautionary Principle must be open, informed and democratic, and must include potentially affected parties. It must also involve an examination of the full range of alternatives, including no action. Wingspread conference participants: (Affiliations noted for identification purposes only.) Dr. Nicholas Ashford, Massachusetts Institute of Technology Katherine Barrett, Univ. of British Columbia Anita Bernstein, Chicago-Kent College of Law Dr. Robert Costanza, University of Maryland Pat Costner, Greenpeace Dr. Carl Cranor, Univ. of California, Riverside Dr. Peter deFur, Virginia Commonwealth Univ. Gordon Durnil, attorney Dr. Kenneth Geiser, Toxics Use Reduction Institute, Univ. of Mass., Lowell Dr. Andrew Jordan, Centre for Social and Economic Research on the Global Environment, Univ. Of East Anglia, United Kingdom Andrew King, United Steelworkers of America, Canadian Office, Toronto, Canada Dr. Frederick Kirschenmann, farmer Stephen Lester, Center for Health, Environment and Justice Sue Maret, Union Institute Dr. Michael M'Gonigle, University of Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Dr. Peter Montague, Environmental Research Foundation Dr. John Peterson Myers, W. Alton Jones Foundation Dr. Mary O'Brien, environmental consultant Dr. David Ozonoff, Boston University Carolyn Raffensperger, Science and Environmental Health Network Dr. Philip Regal, University of Minnesota Hon. Pamela Resor, Massachusetts House of Representatives Florence Robinson, Louisiana Environmental Network Dr. Ted Schettler, Physicians for Social Responsibility Ted Smith, Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition Dr. Klaus-Richard Sperling, Alfred-Wegener- Institut, Hamburg, Germany Dr. Sandra Steingraber, author Diane Takvorian, Environmental Health Coalition Joel Tickner,University of Mass., Lowell Dr. Konrad von Moltke, Dartmouth College Dr. Bo Wahlstrom, KEMI (National Chemical Inspectorate), Sweden Jackie Warledo, Indigenous Environmental Network **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 21:54:05 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Steve Nobel: Me, I hope you have found the silver > bullet, but you > haven't proven it yet. Reply: Well, it's now 25 years since starting/doing going back to more natural sized foundations/combs in the middle of the spectrum range,and no chemical treatments. In fact it's also getting off of drugs,no usage of essential oils or Acids; no usage of artificial feeds, and no storage of extracted equipment to bother about. It's learning how to acclimitize bees back to local regions again for sustainability, with slight variation in breeding for modified out-breeding parameters. It's having clean hive products, including the beeswax ( if you know about the latest contamination beeswax problems with foundations Maryam Frazier talked about recently and now on internest in video movie). I'd like to see another person keep going over 25 years and at same time help others follow (over 2,000 now on the organic list and growing for clean beekeeping). As for the show me stuff. First it was we'll see if you can do it. Then show the proof with 300, then 500 and then........well, CCD symptoms last year with 200 hit in one spot bringing numbers down from about 860 to about 600. But held even with added overwintering normal hives to make up, and didn't artificially feed, though I fed my fall crop to carry them overwinter into spring while working with survivors, and now in process of working yards up for more hives and production this year; and I don't have to worry about the contamination in hives others do, and I am making splits with whole boxes of bees, brood, and honey now. Any way, you show me another person with over 25 years doing this in USA and other running clean and on a sustainable system (not that I havn't been a beekeeper for close to 48 years now). As for the small cell and regressing, remember I've always said with the small cell it's a whole bee management system and that means 1/3 diet, 1/3 breeding, and 1/3 environment, for you will never win doing soundbits and pieces........Nature works with a whole system in unison......maybe someday scientists will learn that....for this is one case were it's all or nothing sorry to say...and on that I will stand!!! Dee A. Lusby p.s. 61 year old woman, and proud of it. So if I can do it then you guys cannot say men cannot!! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 22:18:33 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: africanized bee questions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter Borst: > But it isn't the temperament that is the worst feature > of Africans, .........but the fact that they swarm themselves silly and don't make enough honey to pay the bills. Unless you live in a hut or have some other source of income aside from honey or pollination fees. Reply: Geeh Peter, with Housel Positioning they don't swarm that much. Even with Dean and Ramona here with me ketching swarms (less then 10-12 or so in 30 yards gone thru first round early). Haven't seen any since in the field, though I sure hope more show up. But I don't live in a hut and I do work bees full time, saving on good years to carry thru the bad years (but that is common in farming/ranching). You have to learn to manage the farm to cover all things needed doing what one has to for the way you choose to live. For me it's clean sustainable beekeeping with zero treatments and no artificial feeds. continuing: > By the way, there is a yard of 24 hives a couple hundred > yards from my house. People walk past it every day with their dogs and > babies. No one has ever been bothered by those bees. Reply: Geeh up until I/we moved from Tucson in 2005 and reset up the headquarters here in Moyza, I/we kept about that number or more in the center of Tucson with a million people or so all around. Tucson isn't a little old town you know. Even out on the ranches, the cattle and horses and sheep graze right up to the hives, with no problems. Right now with another fire burning now over 2,000 acres again where fire was with Kitt Peak area my hives are doing okay and not swarming away ahead of the fire (though 2 yards are surrounded with flames), and I had just finished working them up for production for mainflow starting for our acacia (mesquite/catsclaw). So will be interesting to see if I have to feed them, or they can fly past the fire area of 2,000 plus acres and get enough foraging over next couple of months with major brooding having to now be going on to feed let alone make a crop. But then those tiny, swarming AHBs shouldn't be able to do that..........so I guess we shall see what the year now brings......Would be nice they end up doing okay and I even extract some just to stick it sorta!,,,for who would want bees like that? Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 22:30:00 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Emerging bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jerry: My question, in order to do this, did other > bees open the cells? Reply: Why would they not do it? When doing lots of queen cells in same scenario, don't they at times help the queens? So why not a few workers here and there. Certainly they could hear the cry in distress for doing. Livestock are known for helping other livestock in general if they can, and bees are livestock. Sounds like a paper needing to be written and worked on... Dee **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 04:16:55 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Terramyacin for the heck of it? In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10805121938i455aa42eufc92f3168354145f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > >Shaking adult bees from diseased colonies onto new > combs has often > > been tried but the method is unreliable. Shaking of bees onto new combs would not be effective, because the procedure requires that you induce the bees to build comb to consume the spores by not shaking them onto comb and eliminating the comb, replacing it with foundation or starter strips. Secondly, the shake method for foulbrood originally described by Mr. Quinby also requires a “fasting” of the bees. With AFB, we ‘blame the comb’ and we ‘blame the disease’, but often neglect putting blame bees where 'blame also lies'. A policy that I adhere to is not to keep bees that are failing in AFB resistance, and add the additional procedure of requeening. > The shake method is not magic! Spores drift quickly > between colonies, and > it may take years to get infection out of your operation. > However, > countries that burn all diseased combs report very low > incidence of the > disease. Lets think this over for a minute,,, * The shake method allows the reusing of contaminated equipment. * The burn method does not. Perhaps, the very low incidence of AFB in countries that burn should not be credited ‘solely’ to the elimination of drifting spores, but to a higher degree, the destruction of the contaminated hive parts so they are never reused. Best Wishes, Joe ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 07:37:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Terramyacin for the heck of it? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Re: chromic use of antibiotics One side effect that I don't recall being mentioned Standard disclaimer: > The use of this antibiotic, as with other antibiotics, may result in an overgrowth of nonsusceptible organisms, including fungi. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 11:56:26 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: africanized bee questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Right now with another fire burning now over 2,000 acres again where fire was with Kitt Peak area... It's often reported that the forests in the west and south-west of the US are susceptible to raging fires because the huge build-up of dead, dry plant material on the forest floor. Paul Stamets of Fungi Perfecti feels that these forests should be sprayed with beneficial mushroom spores that would reduce this debris build-up following the rainy season. This would deny the fires fuel and make nutrients more quickly available to plants. Mycelia can effectively break down toxins, too. Is there any talk like this in your area? >>So will be interesting to see if I have to feed them, or they can fly past the fire area of 2,000 plus acres... Does fireweed pop up in post-fire areas in Arizona like in some other parts of the west? How long do fire-ravaged areas by you take to recover to provide surplus honey again? Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 05:21:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Pesticide Blamed for German Honey Bee Die-Off MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Pesticide Blamed for German Honey Bee Die-Off German Beehives Hit by Mass Die-Off Beekeepers are pointing the finger at a Bayer CropScience pesticide marketed under the name Poncho, but government tests aren't conclusive By Andrew Curry, Spiegel Online, 5/12/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/05/pesticide-blamed-for-german-honey-bee.html In Germany's bucolic Baden-Wrttemburg region, there is a curious silence this week. All up and down the Rhine river, farm fields usually buzzing with bees are quiet. Beginning late last week, helpless beekeepers could only watch as their hives were hit by an unprecedented die-off. Many say one of Germany's biggest chemical companies is to blame... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 12:22:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Emerging bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've come across a couple of queen cells with queens in backwards. it's rare but does happen on occasion. I've always guessed the bee or the queen got stuck in that orientation while spinning the coccoon and could not turn around. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 09:41:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: A spring without bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Yesterday I spoke with a close friend which runs a large pest control outfit. Quite an eye opener as to the way pesticides reach market. We discussed termite control. He said LD50 is the only concern and in the case of fipernil (spelling?) the registration test plot is around 10 years old and the termite control is still 100%. The registration is based on Japan which has a test plot which still is providing 100% termite control. He said the product the industry used after chloradane ( chloradane test plot still 100% TERMITE KILL AFTER 48 YEARS i THINK HE SAID) was dropped as the product only provided a barrier and repellent effect. he told me the small drill size area needed for termites to get in but control was better with a pesticide which was carried back to the nest. yes he said breaking down immune systems was a method of kill. Especially with a sub lethal dose. he also said that because fipernil works so good little interest has been shown by pest control outfits for the use of the neonicotinoids for termite control. He was not sure why the neonicotinoids were chosen over other chemicals for use in treated lumber. I spoke this morning with a large farmer/ seed seller. he said that he has been planting year after year roundup ready soybeans but because with roundup the weeds ( bee forage) comes up each spring. farmers used to be content to run a disc and no till but with the price of fuel many are burning those weeds ( bee plants ) off with another herbicide in fall. He said he still uses a disc as he feels all those chemicals can not be a good thing. Duh! As I was working bees yesterday I looked at a corn field (waiting to be planted in corn for the forth year in a row) and the ground is dead. Not a weed or an earthworm. The large farmer said that was because the herbicide used for corn left a buildup in the soil. So now we have got a buildup of herbacide & imidacloprid when corn is planted year after year in the same field. He laughed and said some farmers think the buildup might be enough to skip a year ever once in awhile when planting corn year after year in the same field. The seed seller said the seed sellers do not tell the farmers planting the same crop year after year will leave a buildup but at times say that disease and insect problems could occur with such a plan quote David Hackenberg: "it seems beekeepers keeping bees in areas of crop production are seeing the most problems with their bees" A true statement without a doubt! When I started in beekeeping almost fifty years ago beekeepers sought out fields of corn where farmers controlled weeds ( honey plants such as blue vine) by pulling cultivators through the fields until the corn was taller than the weeds. I made huge crops next to these farmers but those days are gone now. History will tell us if the widespread use of big ag by these chemicals was a smart move but most commercial beeks have allready seen the hand writing on the wall for beekeeping in those areas. I recommend to the public as I do and get a water purifier for your drinking water. All these chems will eventually end up in our water supply in my opinion. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 07:06:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since CCD colonies reportedly tend not to be robbed out by healthy honeybees, wax moths and other opportunistic insects immediately after collapse, a chemical in CCD hives must be driving the invaders away. Why is there apparently such limited interest in determining what this chemical is? It could potentially be the equivalent of a fingerprint left at a murder scene. Has anyone carried out basic experiments like determining what happens to healthy honeybees, wax moths and other invaders if they are forced to eat the honey / pollen of a CCD hive? Do they remain healthy or do they get sick and die? Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:40:01 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Pesticides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob quotes David Hackenberg: "it seems beekeepers keeping bees in areas of crop production are seeing the most problems with their bees" A true statement without a doubt! I'm sorry, but this just isn't true at the national level - although it may be true in a region or for specific crops. 1) The frenzy over pesticides whipped up by some beekeepers and researchers alike just doesn't hold up with respect to overall bee losses. In all of the presentations to date, there are reports of higher -than-expected levels of miticides plus a variety of agricultural chemicals, but NO CONSISTENT PATTERN in terms of either the levels or the types of chemicals identified (as verified by Jeff Pettis in the most recent USDA ARS Ag Res Bulletin). Most common finding - and our own data in a preliminary report to the NHB supports this - chemicals beekeepers throw in hives to control mites have left residues inside hives. And, our surveys show that beekeepers are using a far wider array of home brew chemicals than we ever suspected. 2) Our surveys of beekeepers indicate that on a national level, beekeepers attribute losses of bees to pesticides in about 5% of all cases. 3) Because of statements about pesticides by a variety of people, some large western beekeepers chose to pull their bees away from crops, out in the deserts. Didn't help. 4) Organic beekeepers in SW and W sustained CCD-like losses this past fall/winter/spring. Also, in terms of reports from Europe - remember, national politics enter into the picture. In countries like Germany, there are Green Parties whose platform has a STRONG environmental slant. Pesticides issues win votes. None of this means that I'm pro-pesticides. I've been very vocal about need to update the assays used in the label registration process - LD50 is a hold over from the 1960s when that was the only practical metric to measure. I also don't like the privatization of label registration testing. Unlike the days of Atkins, Johansen, and Mayer - when universities provided a 3rd party assessment, the companies now contract firms whose business is to make money testing, and whose results are proprietary. When was the last time you saw an update to the pamphlets listing comparative toxicity of pesticides. Access to test data results has to be by Freedom of Information AND you have to know the exact formulation when you make the request. We need an overhaul of the test assays, reviews of test procedures that because of cost cutting now consist of trials on as few as ONE colony of bees, and naive short cuts. The private firms argue - let's use emerging bees from brood comb rather than a mix of adult ages - its easier and MORE consistent. Yes, and its also tests immature bees, not the foragers that make first contact in the field. Let's do all of the test on subsamples of bees from the same colony - saves money, makes for a more consistent test. Yes, and you've now got an unreplicated trial, simply looking at subfamilies within same colony. Who knows whether that colony represents the norm, is resistant, or susceptible to the chemical. We can't publish results, they are proprietary. Which begs the question, why are they testing in the first place? Its to protect bees. Part of that PROTECTION is letting everyone know the results so beekeepers and growers can make informed decisions about the products available to them. I do believe that when Gene Brandi says he has problems with the bees on watermelons that there may be a problem with the chemicals being used on watermelon. I can believe that the Dave's in Florida may have problems with bees on orchards where specific chemicals are used (or MISUSED). We've consulted with beekeepers on many pesticide kill issues over the years, and reports in recent years are just as frequent as they were in the 60s - but we got in the mode of blaming varroa mite for all losses. Maybe CCD has broken us of that habit. We used to have an EPA lab that would receive and analyze bees from operations with suspected pesticide kills. There was also an indemnity program to compensate beekeepers for proven pesticide loss. That's ancient history. But, its something that the industry should ask to be re-instated - why isn't EPA testing bees for beekeepers? Jerry **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:58:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Re chemicals in CCD colonies that may drive out bees. We are working on this question, and we have filed our first report with NHB. We have identified more than 800 non-pesticide chemicals in 'apparently healthy', failing, and collapsed bee colonies from CCD operations. We've learned a lot, including mounting evidence of miticide related chemicals in 2006-2007 bee colonies when compared to 1,000s of analysis results from our 8 yrs of work in MD in the 1990s. We've also looked at specific contaminants like HMF and aflatoxins. We're still validating final results - but the answer to date, we've LOTS of odd chemicals, but haven't sorted out THE ONE from the 800 or so that we've looked at to date. You, more than most members of this list, know that there is no single analysis test that does all chemicals AND no one's sure what many of these chemicals are doing. So, we started with the most obvious and the most standard procedures. The chemical we are looking for may be buried in the 800+ chemicals that we've identified, or we may need to use other analytical methods to look at yet more categories of chemical. We've moved on to more controlled testing, having built a chamber that we can put a colony into, isolate it from chemicals in the ambient environment. We've some specific ideas about what may be producing the elusive chemical. All of this takes time and money. If you want a faster answer, we're always happy to take a donation to help the beekeeping industry. Jerry **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 11:44:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby said: Any way, you show me another person with over 25 years doing this in USA and other running clean and on a sustainable system Thats kind of the point here, Dee. That statement would indicate that there is something kind of unique about you and your situation. We all know that you are one of a kind, Dee. The question I have is more along the lines of just what is it that I can take from your unique situation to apply to my situation which is a lot different. If it is true that a lot of your success is due to environmental factors that dont apply to me, or heaven forbid, to the dreaded AHBs resistance to varroa, then Im thinking it is less likely that what works for you is going to work for me. That is why I would like to see a more comprehensive and rigorous analysis of just what factors are at play in your operation that make it work for you. If a big part of it is AHB then Im out. Also, I dont have the luxury of any degree of isolation from other beekeepers, if that is a contributing factor in your situation. Everyone knows it is always raining up here in the Pacific N.W. (Not really, but we like everyone to think that it is.) My bees are always fighting the dampness, though. On the other hand I am sure you have environmental stresses that your bees have to deal with that mine dont, such as desert heat. I have nothing but respect and admiration for your accomplishments as a beekeeper, Dee. You are one of the greats. I get a sore back just thinking about it. You are a better man than I. I mean a better woman. No wait, that didnt come out right either. Any way, keep it up for another twenty five. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 13:32:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Jerry ,Paul & All, While Jerry tries to determine which of the chemicals is the cause of CCD. or which combination of 1,2 or say 3 many of us have moved on to simply realizing old comb is a problem and replacing. I pushed hard on BEE-L for U.S. beekeepers to replace comb and then they would see the success I was getting. Took four years to replace my comb. However despite the findings of Jerry there are still plenty of bees being kept on comb like Jerry describes and many of those guys have got the best bees ever this year. Two years ago I would have bet money contaminated comb was behind industry problems. Sure bees do better on noncontaminated comb but it seems now that N. ceranae, virus and getting a low varroa control still are the main issues. I have taken quite a bit of kidding over my advice for guys with a huge number of hives to replace all their comb. Those guys delite in showing me how well their bees are doing. Despite the 37% hive loss statistic for last year. Most of us are fighting the same old issues. varroa, nosema and queen supercedure. Over the last five years I have not spoke with a commercial beekeeper which has not seen some of the documented CCD symptoms in his bees. I have seen nosema ceranae move through a yard effecting all hives. Thanks to Eric mussen I have found you can turn those hives around. I personally doubt I will ever have a problem with nosema ceranae again. I also think if researchers had gave us a warning when they discovered the new nosema many hives could have been saved but trying to find out who knew what and when will not help. The new problem is *virus issues in bees with low varroa load*. So far depopulating susceptable hives seem to be the only answer. Remove those genetics. back to the bee yards! Break over! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 14:00:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DAVID ADAMS Subject: Re: Pesticides In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very well said Jerry, i have to agree, something else changed or came on the scene to start all this.Pesticides are not helping no doubt. David H and I are great friends ,as you know from comming down here and getting the first samples with me out of David's bees which I had here, but we have to agree to disagree on the pesticides being the main "smoking gun". As you know as well as any other reasearcher, when one thinks they have the gun in hand ,they hear another shot fired in the other direction. I just wish some answers could be determined ,so we could maybe know how to do things differently to get back closer to normal and being able to maintain numbers. I have had a better year ,the last half of 07 and first of 08 ,a different group of beekeepers are having problems. My fear is when will the first ones of us to have ccd problems get them again,not to say our losses are normal ,but what is normal anymore?? May the force bee with you ,Jerry **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 18:04:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 13 May 2008 07:06:52 -0700, Paul Cherubini wrote: >Since CCD colonies reportedly tend not to be robbed out by >healthy honeybees, wax moths and other opportunistic >insects immediately after collapse, a chemical in CCD >hives must be driving the invaders away. As Jim points out, it is very hard to drive bees out of a hive with anything that doesn't have a strong odor. Personally, I doubt that there is anything repelling bees from these hives. Countless times I have been in apiaries with severe winter kill or autumn collapse and seen piles of honey apparently ignored by bees, ants and whatever. I suppose it has to do with several factors: not enough forage age bees left to rob? something else in the area interests them more? too cold to fly? just haven't stumbled on it yet? maybe bees are selected by and large not to rob, since robbing cause disease to spread and kill off heavy robbing strains. maybe there only a few hundred robbing bees in a given colony and they get the rest of the hive riled up maybe, maybe, maybe pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 20:02:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 13 May 2008 13:32:40 -0400, Bob Harrison wrote: >However despite the findings of Jerry there are still plenty of bees being >kept on comb like Jerry describes and many of those guys have got the best >bees ever this year. Over the last >five years I have not spoke with a commercial beekeeper which has not seen >some of the documented CCD symptoms in his bees. > having the best bees in years - what does that mean? does that mean they have decent hives going into the honey season and thats it? the bigger question is how many of those are around in Jan for the pot o gold in CA? or next spring? to me the best bees in years means having a stable number of hives year around and never having to buy bees or brood. IMO the best bees are headed up by queens that last 3-5 years, can make a big honey crop and then winter over without crashing cause of mites or nosema etc. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 20:37:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Pesticides Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 13 May 2008 10:40:01 EDT, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: >Most common finding - and our own data in a preliminary report to the NHB >supports this - chemicals beekeepers throw in hives to control mites have left >residues inside hives. And, our surveys show that beekeepers are using a far >wider array of home brew chemicals than we ever suspected. > qnd why isn't EPA >testing bees for beekeepers? I think Jerry hit it on the nail here with his overview of farm chems versus self contamination. I figure nothing is going to change though until the industry gets behind a new way of doing business. The supply houses like Mann Lake and Dadant should remove Apistan and Checkmite from their offerings. The two main bee and honey organizations ABF and AMHPA should strip their board members of their duties if caught using off label chems, support and push soft treatments and condemn the use of home brew treatments. Some of the regional packers are part of the problem too as they accept wax and honey with self applied chems and have raised internal specs over the years to accommodate the off label practices they know is going on. If you ask me its time for a new beekeeping organization to form. An organization that puts the health of the honeybee and clean name associated with honey as the main focus. I believe we have lost our compass bearings. An organization that believes that all beekeepers should be treated equal and importing pests from out of state to dump on your neighbor is unacceptable. An organization that gets back to the roots of regional beekeeping. This hypothetical organization would be a good place to bee associated with when the reports become public and show what kinds of chemicals are being self applied and the concentrations found. Remember the Alar scare in apples? Its coming soon and this time its going to be honey that's the concern. Maybe they can blame Bayer too for that one.........It will not matter if a real health risk is present in honey. Just the image of chemicals being used repeatedly in hives will be enough for Jane Doe to pass up honey on the shelf. Can we seriously think that ABF has any credibility petitioning the feds for a change in how the EPA qualifies pesticides? Its laughable really from my perspective, unless while they are at it they ask to get Apistan and Checkmite delisted as emergency Section 18 status. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 18:17:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Ac id Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...there is something kind of unique about you and your situation. We all know that you are one of a kind, Dee. 25 years is a long time. Arnold in Tennessee (www.arnoldhoneybeeservices.com/index.html) claims to have survivor Italians that he has not treated in 10 years. Has anyone used Arnold's queens?? To me 10 years without chems is as good as 25 years in a sense. Kirk Webster in New England has been doing well with his Russians, too. I have no idea if Dee has African bees or not. I would like to see a video of Dee's hives in the middle or at the end of her main flow. Are there any US beekeepers who successfully keep AHB and make a nice honey crop? And are there US beekeepers who have attempted to keep AHB but failed? Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 20:31:01 -0700 Reply-To: k.kellison@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Kellison Subject: web site corrections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII apologies,, screwed up both web site addresses http://www.pollinator.org/farmbill.htm http://agriculture.house.gov/inside/Legislation/110/FB/Conf/CRland.pdf **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:27:30 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: africanized bee questions In-Reply-To: <20080513.075626.14219.1@webmail20.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii waldemar: > Does fireweed pop up in post-fire areas in Arizona like in > some other parts of the west? How long do fire-ravaged > areas by you take to recover to provide surplus honey > again? Reply: Fireweed is up in the hills down the whole rocky mountain range into Mexico even. But last year were cactus and older trees made it thru the big fire burning over 8,000 acres, but with much dead limbs this year due to last years fire. This year's fire is now getting rid of these trees using the dead limbs for fuel to finish the act, so many oak, sycamore, and pine, besides acacia and older cactus are gone. As to how long to recover to provide surplus honey again, well it takes a full monsoon season to get ground cover going for the next season, not the one currently in. So where bees were just staring to get rolling again by March/April after I fed them real honey for going into winter, since new growth during monsoon wasn't enough, fast enough, will now have to watch three yards again for about 80 hives again. They were just coming on strong and lots of brood and honey going in when I worked them up week prior to fire. Now, they gotta hold the brood even if it means consuming the honey they were putting in to have then enought to run for main flow, which is now gone with second fire thru trees in high country, and monsoon needed to recover the groundcover again.......so will watch and see how far they can fly, and if they can do it..........For 2,000 acres is less then 8,000 acres and the bees being smaller can fly further. so will Watch adn see where things go, then act accordingly. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 20:20:31 -0700 Reply-To: k.kellison@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Kellison Subject: Final Farm Bill update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Final conference language can be viewed in its entirety at: http://agriculture.house.gove/inside/Legislation/110FB/Conf/CRland.pdf or for a great work up of excepts relating to honey bees and natives go to: http://www.pollinator.org/farmbillhtm scroll to bottom two documents in the Pollinator Provisions Among the research and conservation language is also authorization to compensate beekeepers for losses. We are still hopeful for a 2/3 override by House and Senate... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:43:20 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Acid In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Steve Noble: The question I have is more along the lines of just what is it that I can take from your unique situation to apply to my situation which is a lot different. Reply: Steve, the only thing we/I changed was the comb size, going thru two regressions back down to 4.9mm top tolerance. As for doing, well there are well over 2,000 members on the organic list now and many more in numbers are not officially signed up, with success stories in several foreign countries. It also means, like I have always done......no treatments and no artificial feeds and old-fashioned splitting and queen rearing like I have done my whole life, while following the bees and their needs....nothing hard. But if it can be done in the Nordic states, and Europe, and AFrica and S. America, carribean islands, and Far East, then don't see why you cannot do it also, if you want to........the problem is wanting to fwiw.......be it small cell for commercial doing, or just foundationless or TBHs even. I kept all my commercial equipment with liftgates and extracting, packing equipment. It all works fine.......like I said, basically just changed the comb size back down to pre-1920s or late 1800s era before the time of sizing up became popular for bigger is better!! And Like I said, ....if I now as a 61 year old poor old beekeeper woman can do it, then you can too for it's not really that hard a concept changing the combs, especially with all the contaminated stuff out there today needing to be changed! What have you to lose if gotta make changes anyway or get out of business? Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:55:21 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Ac id In-Reply-To: <20080513.141759.12144.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Waldemar: Bring our camera and come on out and simply see how the bees are during main flow like second half of June/first part of July for a few days if you want to find out and know. Good years with ample rains you do fine getting ahead with decent crops; average years and poor years you act accordingly holding. That's what agricuture is about. But I am a commercial beekeeper and have been a long time, and don't see changing anytime soon. And if I can do it out here in this so-called arid climate then you and others should have no problem back in yours. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 23:05:21 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Pesticides In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jerry: But, > its something that the industry should ask to be > re-instated - why isn't EPA > testing bees for beekeepers? Reply: Cannot reinstate with fence walking and too much homebrew going on. Also same reason EPA isnt testing bees for beekeepers probably, for the same chemicals used on crops are officially used in hives also and you cannot have it both ways.....actually.. Only when the bees are back majority to a clean system again, so the chemicals and dopes/treatments can be followed properly can something be done......seems like industry shot itself in the foot this time! and that includes both the free industry and the government one. But just my take on things and where going. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 23:16:22 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Pesticides In-Reply-To: <622471552.7209791210701624407.JavaMail.root@md15.embarq.synacor.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Brian: Concerning formic acid and miticide pads.........Dean (deknow)who posts here on BEE-L needs to update list on recent happenings/findings. Even Jerry should find it highly interesting! Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 03:32:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 13/05/2008 11:26:29 GMT Standard Time, amesfarm@HOTMAIL.COM writes: In this context the proponent of an activity, rather than the public bears the burden of proof. But where commercial interests are involved can the proponents ALWAYS be relied upon to reveal an inconvenient truth? Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 05:12:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Indians Use Bee Venom Therapy to Treat Arthritis, Multiple Sclerosis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Indians Use Bee Venom Therapy to Treat Arthritis, Multiple Sclerosis Bee Sting-New Treatment Regimen for Arthritis, Multiple Sclerosis By Anuradha Mascarenhas, The Indian Express, 5/13/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/05/indians-use-bee-venom-therapy-to-treat.html While most of us rush to the doctor if stung by a red coloured wasp, there are others who wait for the bee keeper to remove a live bee from its hive with a pair of tweezers, hold it next to the skin and wait for it to sting. And they do it as part of a treatment regimen - apitherapy, the medical use of honeybee products that include the use of honey, pollen, propolis, royal jelly and even bee venom... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 09:19:49 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve offered: > The ability of honeybees to fight pathogens of all kinds > involves much more than antibodies being produced to kill > foreign organisms that enter the body. This may be true, but no one has offered anything more than speculation in this area in specific regard to bees. Whenever I hear the phrase "honey bee immune system" I can only conclude from the context in which it is offered that there is a generalized and massive misunderstanding of the extent of the honey bee's "conventional immune system" (I'll call it that to make clear that we are talking about the one that uses antibodies and such.) The context talks about honey bees and disease in the usual way, breakdown of some postulated inherent resistance to pathogens of various sorts, etc. > Conceivably there could be any number of ways that a pesticide > even at very low levels could alter some aspect of a bee's or > a colony's ability to deal with the constant onslaught of > destructive organisms... You have set yourself on a steep uphill path here in that you have: a) Speculated into being some number of scenarios, with many of them being "behavioral" in nature, using as-yet undocumented behaviors that have somehow escaped then keen eyes of several hundred years worth of close observers of honey bee behavior. b) Further speculated that these behaviors have a positive impact of the survival of entire colonies, and that the impairment of these behaviors has a significant negative impact on health to the point of ending up in a deadout hive. c) Speculated even further still that the proximate cause of the impairment is specifically a pesticide. Which one, you don't know, but somehow, you remain convinced that it MUST be a pesticide. And somehow, everyone focuses on one pesticide. That is a lot of speculation to climb. > It may not be proven that imidacloprid is a cause or a > contributing factor in CCD. I think it would be more fair to say that all the data we have in hand tends to exonerates "pesticides" in general. It is not for lack of healthy suspicion, scrutiny, or even paranoid psychosis that no one can pin the rap on pesticides, that's for sure. > There are some very good reasons for some beneficiaries of it in > the ag community, not to mention the chemical industry, to not have > it be shown to be a problem for beekeepers, So let me see if I have this straight - the growers and the chemical companies "like" this pesticide, and so, they have created a very broad conspiracy involving hundreds of independent scientists working at different institutions in different countries, paying each one off to generate falsified data, all so they can make certain that it "not be shown to be a problem for beekeepers"? And NO ONE has spilled the beans? I simply cannot fathom how such a plot could exist outside of a very bad Tom Clancy novel. And even if it were all true, where is the pay-off for the growers, who might save money on pesticides, but end up having to spend much much more to hire human hand pollinators? And why should the chemical companies go to all that trouble, when there isn't even enforcement of the most basic pesticide "label laws" for conventional pesticides that are well-known to be highly toxic to bees? > and it is an insecticide, so I would not be too eager to > completely check it off the list. Just because it is an insecticide? But why just this one? Why not others? And how much data do we need before we can admit that we are wasting time and money on fruitless barking up the wrong trees? Wouldn't it be nice to focus attention on the pathogens that we CAN link to CCD? I really don't think that beekeepers understand just how kewl systemics are. They ELIMINATE some number of sprays, and the less poison that is sprayed, the fewer bee kills we suffer. They also reduce labor for growers, and the seed treatment types are much more profitable for the chem companies, as they can get away from "selling retail" grower by grower, instead doing some easy joint marketing with the seed companies. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 10:17:46 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Pesticides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee said: > the same chemicals used on crops are officially used in hives also I am forced to question the basic accuracy of this claim. I know of no crop pesticide application for any of the miticides and/or mite-related treatments approved for use in beehives. Could you please list specific miticides having the dual-usage you claim exists? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 09:19:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: A Spring without Bees In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10805140901w35c5a271td8a384abcc86c64d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >no one has offered anything more > than speculation in this area [bee immune system] in specific regard to > bees. Actually, there is a substantial body of research. I will be publishing an article on it soon. > > > I can only conclude from the context in which it is offered that > there is a generalized and massive misunderstanding of the > extent of the honey bee's "conventional immune system" > (I'll call it that to make clear that we are talking about > the one that uses antibodies and such.) Misunderstanding, yes, as demonstrated by the above sentence. Insects do not produce antibodies. Jim, I am not arguing with you in any way about your analysis of the pesticide issue. However, the honey bee immune system is more robust and complex than you have suggested. Randy Oliver Just trying to keep the facts straight **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 09:20:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Pesticides In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10805140918w72227711jb267b8e16988fa23@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >Could you please list specific miticides having the > dual-usage you claim exists? The two main chemicals used by commercial beeks are amitraz and fluvalinate. Fluvalinate is registered for hive use as Apistan, amitraz in not currently registered in this country, but was, under the name Miticur. Amitraz--the most commonly used by commercial beeks. Questions about its synergistic effects. "We have now discovered that mixtures of the pesticide, amitraz, with synthetic pyrethroids have valuable and unexpected properties. For example in the context of certain pests which attack crops we have observed that the pesticidal activity of the mixtures is greater than would be expected and synergism is exhibited." http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4517201.html Amitraz or BAAM is an insecticide and acaricide used primarily to control the pear psylla on Oregon pear crops. It also is used to control whiteflies and mites on cotton and pear crops; livestock ticks, lice, and mange mites on beef and dairy cattle and swine; and ticks on dogs. Formulations include a wettable powder, emulsifiable concentrate, soluble concentrate/liquid, and impregnated collar (for dogs). Fluvalinate--used to control some 30 pests http://www.kellysolutions.com/NY/showpests.asp?Basic_EPA_ID=2724%2D478&Product_Name=MAVRIK+AQUAFLOW+INSECTICIDE%2FMITICIDE Coumaphos--used as sheep and cattle dip The active ingredient in Hivastan is an ag chem (I choose not to specify here) There are several other ag miticides used off label by commercial beeks. I also choose not to list here. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 09:21:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Terramyacin for the heck of it? In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10805140843t2ce9cd0fk74c2f8b2cde3905f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >Lets think this over for a minute,,, > * The shake method allows the reusing of contaminated equipment. > * The burn method does not. Hi Joe, I'm sorry for not being clear. The shake method generally recommended does not reuse *contaminated* equipment--the equipment must be sterilized. Torched, hot paraffin, pressure wash, or bleached. The frames are still burned. Yes, Pete--as I'm sure you know, there is a substantial body of research indicating that certain gut flora of bees are important in suppressing infection by AFB and other pathogens. Antibiotic use would be expected to effect that gut flora. Historically, Terramycin has been used prophyllactically without any obvious negative effects. Tylosin is still relatively new in the bee industry, but has been widely adopted by the commercial industry the past few years. I would be very interested in seeing any study as to its effects on beneficial bacteria within the hive. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 12:32:00 -0400 Reply-To: Kathy Kellison Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Kellison Subject: EPA and testing bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We can ask EPA under what conditions they would be willing to reinstate testing bees... If anyone could advise me on some of the history on this thread ,,, I would appreciate it... k.kellison@earthlink.net **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 09:48:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Video: Honey Used to Treat Allergies, Heartburn, Coughs, Wounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Video: Honey Used to Treat Allergies, Heartburn, Coughs, Wounds A Honey of a Medical Treatment http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/05/video-honey-used-to-treat-allergies.html By Lisa Thomas-Laury, May 13, 2008 (WPVI) -- In laboratories all around the Delaware and Lehigh valleys, researchers are working relentlessly on new medical treatments. As it turns out, one of the most promising ones is 5,000 years old... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 10:00:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Ac id In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10805140850s5f3af5bcx87a716a8ccf2583@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >Are there any US beekeepers who successfully keep AHB and make a nice honey crop? Yes. A Tucson beekeeper, I believe his name was Fred Terry, presented at last year's WAS conference. He loved the African bees, and runs a successful business with them. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 16:59:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: A Spring without Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Insects do not produce antibodies." Haemocytes. We meant haemocytes. http://www.apimondia.org/apiacta/articles/2003/glinski_1.pdf Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 17:13:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10805140919l4bc9686aweddb2298aa4f33c6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit randy oliver wrote: >> no one has offered anything more > >> than speculation in this area [bee immune system] in specific regard to >> bees. > > > Actually, there is a substantial body of research. I will be publishing an > article on it soon. I may have read the posts incorrectly since you came to a different conclusion, but it looked like Jim was referring to the speculation as to "weakened immune system". I have been a bit troubled, as it seems so was Jim, by the cavalier use of the term when the writer obviously had no idea what an insects immune system is all about. I did a little reading on it when the bee's "immune system" was first mentioned several years ago. Even more interesting is that honeybees have fewer immune genes than fruit flies and mosquitoes. I would venture that what most are really talking about is a weakened bee, not an immune system. Think of what the bee has to endure from Varroa and Tracheal mites (punctures and loss of hemolymph); authorized (and unauthorized) pesticides added to the hive which attack their nervous system; beaten, battered and banged on long trips in an enclosed hive on a trailer which dislodges wings and legs; and have to forage on killer blooms like blueberries that both strip the hair off its body and give poor return on nectar. After all that you have a weak bee. It can have a perfect immune system, but the damage it has sustained allows a pathogen to overwhelm it. From there you can easily cascade (nosema is easily handled with low spore counts) as the dead and dying act as pathogen factories. Again, every bee there can have a perfect immune system, but any immune system can be overwhelmed. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 17:37:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Interesting observation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A little background- for the first time in 17 years of keeping bees I lost all my colonies. (It was also the first year I did not treat for Varroa since my small cell would fix that.) I asked about bee lines and found that I had lots of information but no bees in the area. I tried every bait in the book including a large slab of honeycomb and not one bee was attracted. I have checked bloom in the area and no bees. I did learn that there was another beekeeper in the area but they were beginners and lost all their bees. So if they do not start again, I might be able to have an isolated apiary in the middle of excellent forage with an excellent opportunity to control problems. Which led me to an observation. I wonder how many beekeepers who enjoy success are actually isolated beekeepers? That is one variable that seems to be missing from discussion of success. It seems that most who have problems have other beekeepers in the area. Tom Sealey talked to us at the Maine State beekeeper's meeting and talked about vertical avirulence http://vivo.cornell.edu/entity?home=1&id=31234 which is what he thought was the cause of survival of bees in the forest. As long as you have separation and the colony has no outside input of Varroa, a certain tolerance can take place. However, when outside Varroa is injected, the bees succumb just like managed colonies. I just wonder if, when I re-start in a week or so, if there might be some advantage and possible vertical avirulence because of my isolation. Will be interesting. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 17:46:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Don't believe the numbers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would take the 37% bee loss for the past winter with a ton of salt. Maine was reported to have lost 35% of our colonies and winter was not done nor had anyone reported losses! Turns out the number came from out of the posterior of the out-of-state reporter, but that was the reporter who gave numbers for the whole country which seem to have become factual when they are flatual. Also interesting that commercial operations who come into Maine for blueberries were counted in both Maine and their parent state as losses, so we ended up with more colonies reported than we have in the State! Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 18:46:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Honey Bee Immune System MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Bees, like many social insects, are relentlessly hygienic, removing alien organisms from their nests, and secreting antimicrobial substances that can reduce the viability and growth of pathogens in the colonies. Bees also raise their young in individual cells using, as a food source, substances with strongly antimicrobial properties. A testament to this hygiene is the fact that, even when facing severe colony-level infections by bacterial pathogens such as Paenibacillus larvae (for which < 10 spores are normally fatal to young larvae, the vast majority of larvae show no signs of exposure. > 'Social' barriers might also reduce exposure to minor, opportunistic, pathogens or saprophytes that have been proposed as generalized targets of insect immune defences. While bees do carry an assemblage of microbes, and bacteria in particular, exposure to these microbes is arguably lower than in free-living Drosophila (decaying plant material as larvae and adults) or Anopheles (septic aqueous environments as larvae). Further, bacteria found in bee colonies have only rarely been associated with disease pathologies, despite extensive study. In fact, some resident bacteria in colonies appear to add to external defences through their inhibition of bee pathogens. From Immune pathways and defence mechanisms in honey bees Apis mellifera J. D. Evans, et al Insect Molecular Biology (2006) 15 (5), 645656 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 18:49:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Hivastan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >The active ingredient in Hivastan Fenpyroximate, is used on apples, pears, grapes, raisins, citrus (orange, grapefruit, lemon, lime), mints (peppermint and spearmint), almonds, pecans, pistachios, hops, and tea. There is potential for chronic dietary exposure to fenpyroximate in drinking water. The EPA concluded that there is a reasonable certainty that no harm will result to the general population, and to infants and children from aggregate exposure to fenpyroximate residues. [I know that sounds like legal mumbo jumbo but it means they are saying it's safe] -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 19:05:46 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Pesticides Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Could you please list specific miticides having the >dual-usage you claim exists? It's not a miticide but Tylosin has been used on poultry for a long time. Some beeks started using it off label for AFB before it was recently approved for bees. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 19:29:00 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: A new ant wrecks havoc in Texas. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This ant even killed the dreaded fire ants. Since it likes sweet stuff, if may cause problems for Texas beekeepers. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080514/ap_on_re_us/texas_ants Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 19:12:02 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Ac id Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>A Tucson beekeeper, I believe his name was Fred Terry, presented at last year's WAS conference. He loved the African bees... Thanks, Randy. Just occured to me: are there any restrictions on knowingly keeping African bees in an apiary situation in the US? Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 01:44:21 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Interesting observation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >It was also the first year I did not treat for Varroa since my small cell would fix that. Just curious - am I right in understanding that your bees failed to survive one year w/o treatment for varroa or was it longer? I'd think 'standard' bees should go for for a couple of years, weakened perhaps but still making an effort, without treatments. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 18:54:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") In-Reply-To: <482B55E0.1040609@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >I may have read the posts incorrectly since you came to a different > conclusion, but it looked like Jim was referring to the speculation as to > "weakened immune system". I have no problem with Jim's arguments, and I also support questioning of anyone's speculations. I'm just keeping the facts straight on specific points, in case anyone is following. I'm a stickler for accurate information. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************