From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:09:32 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16AB249088 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y72017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0806A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 324707 Lines: 7060 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 23:27:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Advanced Beekeeping Books? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >"Bees and Beekeeping: science, practice and world resources" I’m with Pete on that one. Truly one of the best. It’s a shame that it’s out of print, but there are copies available from used book sellers. It likely won’t be a cheap buy though. For what books cost nowadays it’s not a bad idea to get a copy from an interlibrary loan first before spending hard earned money on them. Regards, Dick Allen **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 04:17:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Advanced Beekeeping Books? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 31/05/2008 14:50:56 GMT Standard Time, murphy05@WINDSTREAM.NET writes: can you recommend books for the next level up? 'Form and Function in the Honey Bee' by Lesley Goodman published by the IBRA ISBN 0 86098 243 2 Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 04:28:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Fw: [BEE-L] tulip poplar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 31/05/2008 18:46:50 GMT Standard Time, wbartlett@MD.METROCAST.NET writes: Water table? Chris, That might be a good guess but I live next to a tidal pond I'll re-phrase that to fresh water table. Presumably your pool, being tidal, is saline. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:46:48 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: FW: [Pollinator] Pesticide Ban in Germany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian wrote: > ...the stupid UK line about bees perishing in a decade. this kind of > tabloid nonsense ... This quote came from our Agriculture Minister, Lord Rooker - not the tabloids for once. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 04:19:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: UK Bee Plague Could be Worse than Foot and Mouth Crisis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII UK Bee Plague Could be Worse than Foot and Mouth Crisis Beemergency! A Mystery Plague Threatens Britain's Bees and the Result Could Be Worse than Foot and Mouth By Vince Cable, Daily Mail, 5/31/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/06/uk-bee-plague-could-be-worse-than-foot.html ...Bees matter. And not just for honey. When they are collecting nectar to make honey they spread pollen, which fertilises many of our garden flowers and useful fruits. Apples, pears, cherries, raspberries, strawberries, blackcurrants, broad and runner beans depend on them. They are the unpaid workers whose labour supports many an orchard or garden. On the narrowest calculation, they help produce £165million a year of marketed products. Yet unthinking human activity is doing considerable harm. Britain's bumblebee population has been drastically reduced... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 07:43:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: tulip poplar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The relatively low bee activity in the pear orchards under the Israeli conditions cannot be explained by the "strength" (number of adult bee and brood area) of the colonies. Free (1993) and Mayer et al. (1986) recommended a minimum of 4–6 brood combs per colony for apple and pear pollination, whereas in Israel the minimum standard, as used in the present study, is seven brood combs out of ten populated combs per colony (Dag et al., 1999). It seems that the main reason for the relatively low bee activity was the competing blooms surrounding the pear orchards in Israel.The pear blooming season in Israel (March–April) is within the peak of that of wild flowers (Zohary, 1962), whereas in other countries with temperate climates, which grow 'Spadona', the wild flowers are only beginning to flower. Thus, a high proportion of the bees from the colonies introduced into the Israeli orchard forage outside in the open fields However, another reason for low bee activity on pear is the low volume and the low sugar content in the nectar (25% or less), which is below the threshold of bee attractiveness to flowers (Vansell, 1946; Free, 1993; Delaplane and Mayer, 2000). -- Sequential introduction of honeybee colonies increases crosspollination, fruit-set and yield of 'Spadona' pear (Pyrus communis L.) By R. A. STERN et al Journal of Horticultural Science & Biotechnology (2004) 79 (4) 652–658 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:02:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: Bees in the news In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear all, The more prosaic estimates are that the value of beekeeping in the UK to the UK economy via pollination in 2006 was £166 million (approx US$ 320 million), while the return to the beekeepers themselves was estimated to be worth £11 million in England in 2001. In other words the value to beekeepers themselves is about 10% of the value to the economy-not the nothing reported in the Daily Mail article. This disparity in value is indicative of the need for the UK government to support beekeeping more than it currently does-which is £1.25 Million annually. Regards Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorkshire UK > -----Original Message----- ] On Behalf Of Peter > L. Borst > Britain's 44,000 beekeepers are not very commercially minded. Like the > bees, they work largely for free. ***************** **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:04:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: Glucose Oxidase / was Manuka Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thank you for the reference. I just now read the composition of honey section of The Hive and the Honey Bee, 1999 printing. I found 4 relevant quotes which (IMO) neither fully support nor refute your assertion nor mine. The gluconic acid level in honey could be more a function of how long the honey had high moisture content and less a function of the amount of glucose oxidase added by the bees (above some threshold). Proline levels do seem to increase with each pass through the honey stomach but I did not see a statement of how the glucose oxidase gets added. pp 878: "The gluconic acid present in all honey originates largely from the activity of the glucose oxidase which the bees add at ripening...." pp 880, regarding glucoinvertase: "The consistently high sucrose content of some honeys (citrus, some clovers, and others) normally results from such heavy nectar flows or such high-sugar nectars that relatively little manipulation by the bees is needed to achieve honey density so that their invertase level is considerably less than most other honeys." pp 880, regarding glucose oxidase activity: "It is necessary to dilute honey to measure the activity." pp 883, regarding concentration of the amino acid proline in honey: "They related its concentration to the extent of manipulation by the bees in converting nectar into honey." **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:40:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Varroa control in late July or early August MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Brenda Ball carried out a five-year study of honeybee viruses before Varroa arrived in Britain. Some viruses were found only at certain times of year, others were confined to either the brood or the adults, while others were only found in colonies affected by Nosema. After Varroa arrived in Britain further studies showed there is a relationship between the presence of Varroa and/or viruses and colony survival. Colonies with Varroa, but no virus, can tolerate higher numbers of the mite than those with virus infection. Colonies with virus infection can survive with low numbers of mites, but colonies with virus and higher numbers of mites will die. Deformed wing virus has become a damaging disease since the arrival of Varroa. Only a small proportion of infected adult bees show the crippled wings symptom but by late summer most of the bees may have DWV. Infected bees have reduced life expectancy and this can cause heavily infected colonies to die during the winter. To break the cycle of virus infection brought about by Varroa mites, it is necessary to kill the mites. This needs to be done before the end of summer so the colony has time to produce enough healthy adult bees to provide the overwintering population. Brenda recommended earlier Varroa control than most beekeepers are currently doing and that this should be done in * late July or early August * [this is for a northern climate. in warmer climates it may need to be earlier still -- pb] **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:23:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Advanced Beekeeping Books? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would agree with Peters book recommendations for the works of Eva Crane, perhaps the ‘Indiana Jones’ of Apiculture. IMO, when moving into advanced beekeeping, it is important to review the past to have a better understanding of how and why things are the way they are in beekeeping today. Some of the older works go into detail not much seen in instructional beekeeping books today. The material can be dated, so it must be read with an appreciation for the knowledge at the time. A few of my favorites are: The honey bee; its natural history, physiology, and management (1827) Author: Bevan, Edward, 1770-1860 http://www.archive.org/details/honeybeeitsnatur00bevarich The honey bee: a manual of instruction in apiculture (1899) Author: Benton, Frank, 1852-1919 http://www.archive.org/details/honeybeemanualof00bentrich Beekeeping; a discussion of the life of the honeybee and of the production of honey (1918) Author: Phillips, Everett Franklin, 1878-1951 http://www.archive.org/details/beekeepingdiscus00philrich Best Wishes. Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:34:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kirk_Jones?= Subject: all ideas need to be voiced on this forum..... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Ya'll, Just a short note from an avid reader(lurker)..... I am the general mgr. for a migratory operation between northern Michigan and the panhandle of Florida. I would consider myself to be a progressive beekeeper, ie., one that is open to new ideas to keep my bees healthy, and that has included doing some things off label. The govt. and regulatory agencies are generally behind the curve, and if we had to wait for someone to tell us how to keep our bees alive and give us permission to manage for mites, bacteria, virus, bears, etc, we would be *out of business*. Not only would my employees lose their jobs, but the bees would be dead and that would reflect very poor animal husbandry. So my first job is to keep my bees alive and that also means I have to look ahead to the next year in terms of the combs getting contaminated, antibiotic resistance, etc. I started about 30 years ago and did get a few years in the "golden era" before the mites. But I'm still here and consider myself a survivor. I would like to drop all treatments, but that is not an option. Pragmatism rules in my world. I can appreciate the viewpoint of the "organic" folks. I buy organic food myself. But if I had to eat something or die, I would eat the whatever I had to to survive to fight another day. It's that way with the bees too. Win today's battle to fight another day. Alot of farmers depend on our organization to have "rockin'" bees to pollinate their crops and we do have good hives for them. All the families that depend on income from our operation to pay their bills can count on our operation to constantly think and rethink our management scheme that has resulted in positive results. Knock on wood....we are anxious about being the next casualty of collapse. My opinion on healthy bees....keep your eye on the ball. The ball is MITES. Don't go over 3 months without treatment. Never let mite rolls go over 5. Beat em back. We treat right before supering with thymol for instance. It's the last treatment we can get in thats benevolent. Earlier before honey time and after, use something that will beat the mites back without polluting your combs within reason. Mitecides have saved our behinds. If you don't find the use of chemical miticides within your mindset, well....don't beat up other beekeepers. March to the beat of your own drummer and keep an open mind. The same goes for other management programs. It's generally not an issue of right or wrong. I always like posts from guys like Bob H. who brings something to the table, but doesn't beat up other beekeepers if he disagrees. A good poster, in my opinion. I really appreciate postings from "hands on" front line guys, with one hive or 40,000. There is something to be learned from even the smallest beekeeper. Keep posting! Bee chill, Kirk www.sleepingbearfarms.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 21:50:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: africanized bee questions was: Re: [BEE-L] Would Formic Ac id In-Reply-To: <20080514.151202.15585.3@webmail02.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Just occured to me: are there any restrictions on knowingly keeping > African bees in an apiary situation in the US? You can't *knowingly* keep African bees in Missouri but who is looking. AHB genetics are widespread in the U.S.. Australia for sure does not trust our fabis testing and has refused to accept our DNA testing. In U.S. African hybrid stock you mostly see only some of the running on frames and swarming. On occasion you see extreme aggressive behavior and then depopulating the hive makes the most sense. Most commercial beeks with quite a bit of AHB genetics fight aggressive bees on a daily basis but are able to depopulate a hive in a matter of minutes if needed. Most commercial beeks make a higher number of splits than ever before due to the ever increasing yearly losses..Kill most queens and requeen all hives on a every year or every other year time table. In Texas killing all queens yearly and requeening with your own cells of known non AHB origin keeps the % of AHB at low levels. AHb has been a big issue mostly with . 1. the public 2. researchers 3.hobby beekeepers. Really not a big deal for commercial beeks. At a national convention a survey was asked about what was the bigger concern for beeks varroa or AHB. 90% said varroa. However *fresh off the boat scuttelata* like found in south Florida are very different than the AHB hybrid which made its way north from Brazil. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 15:42:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IMO, by seeking treatment > alternatives to these new diseases are perhaps neglecting the most > important contributor to the colonies immune system found in (behavioral > traits). In beekeeping we have always had those we call "crusaders". I have been friends with many of these types through out the years! Crusaders always need to remember the U.S. food production needs a couple million hives for pollination. its great for some to ignore new diseases and problems to hopefully find other answers but the industry as a whole needs treatments. Every year I hear the cry about our dependence on foreign oil ( which is serious but pickups and SUV's in many cases got better gas mileage a couple decades ago! ) but if the trend of unsustainable big agriculture continues a bigger concern of mine might be our dependence on the rest of the world for our food. I watched a documentary on the apple industry in Washington State the other day. Once thriving apple farms going out of business because they can't compete with apples from out of country. Raisin grape industry in California is history. Almond trees are being planted by the thousands of acres around the world. Cherry growers say they can't compete. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:47:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: all ideas need to be voiced on this forum..... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm sorry but selectively lifting quotes while conveniently leaving out the context (that a "rare" misapplication occured) is misleading to all readers. as far as treating goes - we have formic, OA and apigaurd which do not contaminate comb. russian bees are also proving to be a viable solution to those who wish to use no treatments at all. the idea that all beekeepers big and small have few options to treat mites successfully and have to use the hard stuff is just as misleading of a concept IMO. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:18:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: africanized bee questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: >You can't *knowingly* keep African bees in Missouri but who is looking. AHB >genetics are widespread in the U.S. I don't know what the basis is for this claim. If you are referring to spot imports, it is simply not the same thing as the mass invasion at the southern border. This was a wall of bees. Some of your statements don't agree with the work done on the actual Africanized bee invasion. For example, when bees were analyzed before AHB arrival in Arizona, there was no evidence of African DNA except from Egypt quoted material: We monitored a feral population in southern Arizona (Oracle Junction)from 1992 through 1999. This Sonoran desert habitat was well populated by EHB before Africanization, with a high of over 220 colonies in 1991. We sampled the population twice per year, by locating all observable colonies and checking all known sites where colonies had been located previously. Our data indicated a high percentage of A. m. mellifera mitotype (over 70%) (Loper and others 1999). A small percentage of colonies were also identified as A. m. lamarckii, the Egyptian honeybee, which was likely brought in over a century ago and has not been used in any appreciable level for beekeeping. African mtDNA first appeared in the feral Arizonan population in 1995, with the percentage of colonies exhibiting African mtDNA rising to 74% by 1999. The data suggest that African mitochondrial frequencies were still rising but approaching an equilibrium level. Consistent with this interpretation, a study in 2005 at another site in the Sonoran desert of Arizona reported African mtDNA in 86% of colonies. AHB colonies can fail during winter without running out of honey, so inadequate longevity rather than starvation may be responsible for the reduced ability of AHB to survive dearth. AHB have shorter lifespans than EHB in both summer and winter. EHB have much higher hemolymph vitellogenin levels than AHB, especially in winter. High levels of vitellogenin protect honeybees from oxidative stress and thus may be a key physiological trait necessary for extending lifespan sufficiently to survive long, flowerless periods. Throughout most of South America and Central America, the range of AHB expanded by 160–500 km per year. Waggle dances indicate that AHB reproductive swarms selected nest sites averaging 5 km from their nest entrance, 2 to 10 times greater than typically shown by EHB. AHB also exhibit an absconding behavior in response to short-term disturbance, and long-term migratory behavior in response to deteriorating food conditions, both of which are rare in EHB. Waggle dances prior to absconding communicate distances of up to 20 km from the hive, suggesting that this is the primary mechanism of range expansion for the AHB. -- Environmental physiology of the invasion of the Americas by Africanized honeybees (2006) Jon F. Harrison, et al **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:20:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: africanized bee questions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bob Harrison wrote: > >>You can't *knowingly* keep African bees in Missouri but who is looking. >>AHB >>genetics are widespread in the U.S. > Peter asked: > I don't know what the basis is for this claim. I am not sure what the question is? In Missouri we gave our state bee inspector the power to depopulate hives which test AHB. None has been looked at ,tested or depopulated to my knowledge. I depopulate all mine but not sure what the other guys do. AHB genetics can be found (if looked for) in most migratory operations I have been told. No restricitions of migratory movement in and out of areas of AHB has been done since the first 3000 hive migratory operation was held in Texas( Rio Grande valley) for a couple years (1989). A commercial beek in California reported several years ago in ABF he had AHB in his operation for over ten years. > African mtDNA first appeared in the feral Arizonan population in 1995, > with > the percentage of colonies exhibiting African mtDNA rising to 74% by 1999. > The data suggest that African mitochondrial frequencies were still rising > but approaching an equilibrium level. Consistent with this interpretation, > a > study in 2005 at another site in the Sonoran desert of Arizona reported > African mtDNA in 86% of colonies. > bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 23:01:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Advanced Beekeeping Books? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pheromones of Social Bees. John B Free. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 23:24:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Varroa control in late July or early August MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote about Brenda Ball's work: > Deformed wing virus has become a damaging disease since the arrival of > Varroa. ...Infected bees have reduced life expectancy and this can cause > heavily infected colonies to die during the winter. > > it is necessary to kill the mites. This needs to be done before the > end of summer so the colony ... > * late July or early August * I am surprised if everyone does not know this by now. Dr Stephen Martin re-inforced this work in his lecture to the Central Association (UK) in November 2001. I wrote about it in our newsletter in February 2002: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/Newsletters/February2002.htm see CENTRAL ASSOCIATION LEAMINGTON WEEKEND. What is perhaps more important is the fact that when varroa first arrived here there was very little virus around - so large populations of mites could be sustained because they were not carrying the virus. Since then, the virus has become much more widespread so it is much more likely that a mite will carry it. The effect is like playing Russian roulette. When varroa first arrive it was unlikely that the gun had any bullets - now it probably had a full chamber. Stephen lectured on this in a follow-up lecture to BIBBA in 2007. I wrote this up here: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/Newsletters/May2007.htm see VARROA TOLERANCE/RESISTANCE IN APIS MELLIFERA Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ At Apimondia in 2005 we were told that colonies could easily collapse with just 1000 mites. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:21:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: africanized bee questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steve Sheppard is one who knows as much as anyone about the genetic basis for honey bee identification. He coauthored a paper entitled: "Identification of African-Derived Bees in the Americas: A Survey of Methods" (2000) WALTER S. SHEPPARD AND DEBORAH R. SMITH. I didn't feel like counting all the different methods but the paper runs 18 pages, so you get the picture. What is interesting to me is > Currently, 26 subspecies of A. mellifera are formally recognized, based primarily on morphometric characters. The subspecies concept, however, relies on knowledge of the geographic partitioning of the overall diversity within a species. Some authors have argued that the subspecies is inherently subjective and thus its use and validity in systematics is questionable. The merits of this debate are beyond the scope of this article -- yet they are suggestive of the difficulties that have arisen in discussions of the introduced populations of honey bees in the New World. In other words, if the experts can't agree on what a subspecies is (formerly "race") -- then we are forgiven for not be able to get any of it straight pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:41:32 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>if ... unsustainable big agriculture continues a bigger concern of mine might be our dependence on the rest of the world for our food. I share this concern. If we continue to discontinue producing not only food but also manufactured goods, Americans won't have the money to buy cheap food from abroad... Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 02:20:33 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: africanized bee questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Peter Borst wrote: In other words, if the experts can't agree on what a subspecies is ...then we are forgiven for not be able to get any of it straight peter, are you saying here that you don't think there is a proven/legitimate way to define "races" (or subspecies) of honeybees? deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:33:13 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Alarm Pheromone / Aggressive Ferals Comments: To: Eric Simms In-Reply-To: <804075.4980.qm@web36606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Eric: So for commercial beekeeper working hives daily for the most part, no problem then I am seeing. Probably even working 1-2 times a week also. But seems the same with stings for size of redness, depending upon the frequency of the stings gotten. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 00:58:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Varroa control in late July or early August Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst writes: “[this is for a northern climate. in warmer climates it may need to be earlier still]” I would have thought that in warmer climates you would have a broader window of time within which to treat since brood production is able to continue further into the later months. I live in north western Washington State and I do feel I have to treat at least by mid September not only because I want to give the bees time to produce more healthy bees for winter, but because the weather starts to work against you with Formic Acid past that time. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 06:54:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Glucose Oxidase / was Manuka In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter de Bruyn Kops wrote: > Thank you for the reference. I just now read the composition of honey > section of The Hive and the Honey Bee, 1999 printing. I found 4 relevant > quotes which (IMO) neither fully support nor refute your assertion nor mine. The original point seems to be lost, that there are a lot of variables that would cause the honey to exhibit different anti-biotic strengths. We both seem to be proving that. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 04:19:27 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > In beekeeping we have always had those we call > "crusaders". I have been > friends with many of these types through out the years! I can tell you are good friends them by the use of the terms "crusaders" and "these types". Same loving words Grandma used to use. What is so bad about a beekeeper choosing a non-chemical approach, breeding for resistance in bees for varroa? Is it offending to you in some manner? food production needs a couple > million hives for > pollination. I’m not up on current figures, but with about 2.4 million bee colonies in the USA, is there data that shows 2 million colonies directly involved in food production? its great for some to ignore new diseases and > problems to > hopefully find other answers Please explain how breeding for resistance is ignoring any bee problem? Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:26:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Varroa control in late July or early August Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steve Noble wrote: > I would have thought that in warmer climates you would have a broader >window of time within which to treat since brood production is able to >continue further into the later months. The problem is not the window but staying a head of the curve. Anyway, I was just making a standard disclaimer: I am concerned primarily with the mite problem in the north. We have the fast spring buildup, the rapid expansion of the colony size, and the main honey flows occur in summer and fall. For many of the beekeepers in this area this produces a very large population of mites at a time when the supers are on. The point is, if you wait till after the flow to knock down the mites, it's probably too late. So something has to happen in mid summer to curtail mite buildup. Whether that is a brief but intense application of formic, diligent drone brood removal, splitting all of the hives, requeening, depends on the individual. But something has to be done or the bees are unable to properly condition the colony for winter. I have seen 90% losses this year and I think it is due to colonies being in poor condition going into winter. There has to be a large percentage of young winter bees. If they have a lot of virus damage in fall they can't pull it off. One of my neighbors allegedly went from 2000 to 1000 in fall and by the time they got Florida they were down to a few hundred. Others who stayed here had the same experience only they didn't find out until spring. They need something that will work, not just ideas. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:39:06 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Varroa control in late July or early August Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I treat for varroa w/ OA drip in broodless November/December. OA eliminates varroa very effectively then w/o residues. I checked some hives yesterday - not a single varroa in the drone cells [broken when boxes are separated] and I checked dozens of cells. I know many sources recommend treating in the late summer for strong winter bees. I believe treating in July /August gives the few remaining varroa a longer time into the following season to recover their numbers. By treating late - if you have strong colonies! - you can go through the next summer and into the fall w/o treatments. It also allows for selecting for strong/resistant colonies. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:32:07 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Varroa control in late July or early August In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Peter wrote: The problem is not the window but staying a head of the curve. Anyway, I was just making a standard disclaimer: I am concerned primarily with the mite problem in the north. We have the fast spring buildup, the rapid expansion of the colony size, and the main honey flows occur in summer and fall. For many of the beekeepers in this area this produces a very large population of mites at a time when the supers are on. Peter I will have a more numerical answers after this winter is past. But as I have the same problem in Chile, a long season with super on for a late summer almost autum honey flow, i give it a try this season by supplying proteins in the middle of the honey flow, in this way putting the bees multiplication ahead of varroa multiplication with a formic treatment. It seems to work ok. The logic is pristine. Give excess protein when the queen/colony is in full reproduction mode, use the "inertia" in your favor. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:35:27 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Varroa control in late July or early August Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >-- Peter Borst wrote: >Whether that is a brief but intense application of formic is that a trickle, or a vapor? what would you do differently than a normal application of formic to make it "intense"? >I have seen 90% losses this year this is a very large percentage for a given area. what numbers are you hearing about from other areas? what percentage of the bees in your area have you inspected? deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:06:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Simms Subject: Re: Alarm Pheromone / Aggressive Ferals Comments: To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dee Lusby: "So for commercial beekeeper working hives daily for the most pa= rt, no problem then I am seeing. Probably even working 1-2 times a week als= o.=0ABut seems the same with stings for size of redness, depending upon the= frequency of the stings gotten."=0AIt is primarily (but not entirely) an e= xposure frequency=A0issue - commercial beekeepers=A0thus aren't affected by= venom allergies, generally speaking, nor are the=A0apitherapy recipients.= =A0=A0Hobbyists and sideliners are probably=A0more at risk for developing a= n allergy to bee venom:=A0 our club=A0has lost many hobbyists that develope= d an allergy to bee venom.=A0 I personnally=A0can say=A0that as a=A0sidelin= er, I have had increasing reaction to bee venom and now carry=A0Benedryl ta= blets with me when ever I go into the apiary.=A0 I only get stung=A03 or=A0= four times per year because I wear the=A0layered mesh "african bee" suit fo= r reasons of heat tolerance.=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:03:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lesli Sagan Subject: Re: Alarm Pheromone / Aggressive Ferals In-Reply-To: <540039.71833.qm@web36601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Eric Simms wrote: > It is primarily (but not entirely) an exposure frequency issue - commercial > beekeepers thus aren't affected by venom allergies, generally speaking, nor > are the apitherapy recipients. Hobbyists and sideliners are probably more > at risk for developing an allergy to bee venom: ... Eric, can you clarify? Are you saying it's more dangerous to be stung a handful of times per year (as far as venom allergies go) than being stung many, many times? So a commercial beek, who is stung all the time is less at risk of developing an allergy than a hobbyist, who is stung occasionally? -- ***************************** Lesli Sagan lesli.sagan@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:21:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Comments: To: naturebee@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <84428.7881.qm@web56412.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > What is so bad about a beekeeper choosing a non-chemical approach, > breeding for resistance in bees for varroa? I think the above is needed. I myself have received 25 Russian/Russian queens from the Russian queen breeder program last month. I have worked with survivors for years however I have not found the combination needed for **ME** to drop treatments. > Is it offending to you in some manner? > Certainly not! However I am a realist and successful business man. I make a living from bees. Each hive is a production unit. Just keeping the hive around all season costs money. Actually turning the office lights on each day takes capital. Some survivor colonies are what I call dinks. If they survive varroa but will not produce honey or strong enough to split or sell into pollination then I depopulate and replace with a strong unit. Those on the list which make a living from bees know exactly what I am saying. Those which don't might not understand the tough bottom line involved with making a living from bees. The "live and let die' method makes only sense to me when searching for a breeder queen. No place in the commercial apiary. > I’m not up on current figures, but with about 2.4 million bee colonies in > the USA, is there data that shows 2 million colonies directly involved in > food production? There are no reliable stats! > Please explain how breeding for resistance is ignoring any bee problem? If those searching for the perfect bee find the bee then I will buy queens and convert. Commercial beeks are constantly testing queens advertised as resistant to varroa etc. In Florida last year I looked at the 2007 queens from most of the queen producers. New methods of control. So far we have not found a bee which can survive varroa untreated (in yards of 24-40 hives with queens from other sources) and produce up to our expectations. The Russian/Russian is close but when out crossing occurs resistance drops. Until the right bee is found most commercial operations are forced to monitor and treat for many problems. I am one of the few which keeps an open mind to new methods. Most commercial operators see leave alone beekeeping as unsustainable and a quick road to bankruptcy! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:49:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Simms Subject: Alarm Pheromone / Aggressive Ferals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dee Lusby asked: "If venom therapy is used to build immunity to bee stings = starting with one sting full dose or as quick as possible and out, and then= working up, taking more and more,... then for beekeepers wearing veils and= bees on veils doing same, or as in instance you refer to above.........how= does this create problems for developing sensitivity then which is opposit= e effect?"=0A=0AThe difference between building a sensitivity and developin= g an immunity to reaction is the frequency of exposure to bee venom.=A0 The= less frequent exposure runs a high risk of turning into a sensitivity (whi= ch is actually an unecessary immunilogical response to foreign protein) sim= ilar to what you would deliberately do when creating vaccines.=A0 Vaccines = work because the immune system is stimulated and has a memory for breif exp= osures to foreign matter.=A0 Continuous exposure to foreign proteins such a= s those encounted with our symbiotic bacterial infestations that we want li= ving on/in our bodies, tend to not evoke the histamine generating immunolog= ical response.=A0 It is all way more complicated than that, but I want to s= implify the apparent mechanism for the sake of conveying an understanding, = though our scientific types might bash my oversimplification/innaccuracies.= =0A=0AEric Simms, Howe, Texas=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:23:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Simms Subject: Re: Alarm Pheromone / Aggressive Ferals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Are you saying it's more dangerous to be stung a handful of times pe= =0A=0A>Are you saying it's more dangerous to be stung a handful of times pe= r year=0A>(as far as venom allergies go) than being stung many, many times?= =0AYes, the irregular and infrequent stinging is more likely to build a sen= sitivity, and frequent/regular stings are more likely to avoid and/or reduc= e an existing sensitivity.=A0 Allergic reactions are a kind of immune syste= m over-response to a foreign substance, usually a protein.=A0 Infrequent ex= posure to proteins that=A0are foreign to the human body are more likely to = result in an increasing immune system response, including the histamine res= ponse that we know as allergic reactions.=A0 Of course, being stung too man= y times=A0in a single event=A0can be dangerous to anyone, regardless.=A0 It= is probably more=A0the regularity that is key to avoiding=A0allergic react= ions.=A0 Thus, frequent stings (daily or weekly) is a de-sensitizing factor= to the immune system.=A0 The process that an allergy specialist doctor(MD)= =A0puts you through as treatment for an allergy is a frequent (3 to 5 times= a week)=A0and progressively stronger dosage of the allergen that=A0the pat= ient is sensitive toward.=A0=A0Starting at low doses and increasing the dosages,= =A0patients are injected with=A0the allergen=A0at=A0regular frequency to av= oid excessive reaction (anaphylactic shock).=0AOld time beekeepers are=A0 w= ell known for the practice of giving themselves (and some times family memb= ers)=A0routine bee stings to reduce sensitivity.=A0 MD's would worry about = this or any self treatment regimine.=A0 But it worked, and I suspect it was= relatively safe or word would have gotten out that Joe B. Keeper killed hi= mself or a family member with intentional stings.=0A>So a commercial beek, = who is stung all the time is less at=0A>risk of developing an allergy than = a hobbyist, who is stung occasionally?=0AYes.=0AEric Simms, Chemical Engine= er, Sideline Beekeeper, NOT and MD or immunologist=0A=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:17:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Alarm Pheromone / Aggressive Ferals In-Reply-To: <297545600806020803i65965942nfd6272988ad072ed@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are you saying it's more dangerous to be stung a > handful of times per year (as far as venom allergies go) than being stung > many, many times? I think so. However most people never have a problem and only get a few stings a year. All stings are not equal and placement of the sting can effect the reaction. I will share a dangerous sting area. A sting directly on a large vein which actually pumps venom into the bloodstream. I have had a few of these and the symptoms can include light headed and passing out even for the commercial beek. So a commercial beek, who is stung all the time is less at > risk of developing an allergy than a hobbyist, who is stung occasionally? there are no exact rules as each person is different but generally speaking I would agree. Those which only read of the full immunity to stings are skeptical until the get enough stings to see the effect. Today is a rainy day and the bees are not in a good mood. I spoke by cell to a beekeeper crew putting on supers in light rain in Lone Jack, Missouri. The answer to my call was "we are getting the hell stung out of us but about ready to head for home". However tonight when the day is over those beekeepers could hardly find a sting spot to show you. No redness or swelling. At times you can find a red dot where the stinger went in. Commercial beeks tease each other about stings! My partner and I used to play ( still do! ) a game we called pass the honey bee. When riding in a cab full of bees we catch a bee like you would a queen and pass the bee to the next guy. The beek which does not pick the bee up correctly gets the sting. Takes focus as she is hell bent on stinging you. Usually new help quits after the first day when the bees are not in a good mood. We are getting rain every couple days and so we are having to work even in poor weather. I think having to work bees in bad weather is the biggest difference between the hobby or sideline and the commercial beek. I took quite a few stings this morning checking yards to super and yards to install comb honey supers. Usually the rain washes the nectar from the clover and the bees do not visit for a day or two after a big rain. This week the bees are flying as soon as the rain stops and as I said in my articles the Australian bees I use fly in light rain. We usually pull a trailer with a swinger to super bees using pallets of supers. This season all work has been done the old fashioned way by hand. Double work but too wet to get into yards pulling a trailer and a 5000 pound forklift. I have cut some deep ruts in certain areas getting in and out with a ton and a half four wheel drive flatbed. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:39:21 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Alarm Pheromone / Aggressive Ferals Comments: To: Eric Simms In-Reply-To: <540039.71833.qm@web36601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Eric Simms: Hobbyists and sideliners are probably more at risk for developing an allergy to bee venom: our club has lost many hobbyists that developed an allergy to bee venom. Rely: Don't know if it is the bee venom here or possibly over the counter medications taken like Advil or Tylenol or other pain killers, etc., that breach the immune system causing the allergic reactions. You basically cannot take medications and work honeybees without expecting problems, especially pain killers. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:27:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Varroa control in late July or early August MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/06/2008 13:55:21 GMT Standard Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: I treat for varroa w/ OA drip in broodless November/December. In the UK we tend nowadays not to have a broodless period, although there may be a period with less brood. I haven't yet been brave enough to open a hive in December and destroy the sealed brood before applying the oxalic. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:33:45 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Alarm Pheromone / Aggressive Ferals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee wrote: > You basically cannot take medications and work honeybees without expecting > problems, especially pain killers. Do you have a source for this sweeping statement? I became allergic to bee venom (and have since been desensitised) but wasn't taking any medication. all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 00:14:33 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: What a Honey!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I produce Ulmo honey and didn't know that... http://www.riosanpedro.net/our_unique_ulmo_honey.html Manuka take care ... Ulmo has arrived!!! -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:55:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit regardless of what bee someone is using , there is no excuse any more to use mite treatments that contaminate comb. beekeepers must accept the role they have played in the demise of honeybees. contamination of comb with high levels of miticides is now documented and appears to contribute to the overall problems of recent bee losses.. we have apiguard, formic and OA depending on your situation which do work. i'm not saying i'm the worlds best beekeeper but I and others I know seem to be able to keep bees alive using these soft treatments. then there is the russian bee, for honey production the russian bee does not appear to have any drawbacks - I realize that for mid winter pollination of a tree that is native to Asia (almonds) that the russian is not going to work. but wait - maybe no bee will work given the requirements of almond pollination. nobody is forcing beekeepers to risk their operation to go for the "pot o gold" in almonds. frankly that whole operation out there looks grossly unsustainable. IMO almonds are ruining US beekeeping. unless we genetically modify the honeybee i don't see how there will ever be a way to congregate 100's of thousands of colonies in a small place and not wreak havoc. this is not the answer any one wants to admit so we go on with the silly notion that science will somehow find a way to allow an unsustainable method of agriculture to continue. over a period of 3 years I wonder how the loss statistics would trend if every out state beekeeper left their hives home over the winter and skipped the cluster in CA? leave those poor CA beekeepers alone and let the almond industry work with what bees they have in CA and stop transporting the latest bee crisis annually cross continent. i'm just tired of the notion that its everything else except beekeeper practices that are causing all of the troubles. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:43:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit J. Waggle wrote: >I’m not up on current figures, but with about 2.4 million bee colonies in the USA, is there data that shows 2 million colonies directly involved in food production? I am sorry but this is (unintentionally) funny. ALL the hives are directly involved in food production. That's what they DO. But you probably mean do they pollinate crops? Most also do this. Some hives are located away from crops but they still are involved in food production. Honey. By the way, that 2.4 million is a pre-CCD figure which the media loves to quote ad infinitum. I would guess the number ranges from 1 to 3 million but is continually changing, of course. >Please explain how breeding for resistance is ignoring any bee problem? Well, for starters, if the problem is you can't keep them alive, how will you breed with them? People have been talking about breeding for this or that since beekeeping started. As I state in my recent ABJ article, folks may need to keep the bees alive with mite treatments, while they are getting there. Some outfits have resistance/resilience; in others it may remain a goal for long time to come. This is not an issue that is owned by the so-called organic beekeeping group. Everyone wants pesticide free food, but we have learned to live with a certain level. Is it killing us? Maybe, but the food is also keeping us alive and it is a fact that good fresh food is the best weapon against natural and man-made environmental toxins, which there have always been -- even before the modern era. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:48:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: CAPABEES.CA =?windows-1252?Q?=96?= REDESIGNED Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit CAPABEES.CA has a new look! The new site features extension information that appears nowhere else on the web. Check out our featured content this month: - varroa treatment thresholds for the Canadian prairies, - an update on the biology and management on nosema - our Association's most current statement on Colony Collapse Disorder We are also in the process of digitising out-of-print publications. Currently we have completed our Crop Pollination publication, a host of publications on leafcutter bee culture and guides to growing clovers and overwintering colonies. We expect to add more content frequently so keep checking back. Please visit us and add us as your link. We appreciate any feedback you have. Enjoy the site. Communication Committee, Canadian Association of Professional Apiculturalists **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:13:23 -0400 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Re: [WL] [BEE-L] Advanced Beekeeping Books? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would suggest the following: Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding Laidlaw and Page Wicwas Press 1997 Ontario Queen Rearing Manual Skinner, Tam and Bannister Ontario = Beekeepers' Association 2006 Edition Elemental Genetics and Breeding for the Honey Bee Guzman-Nova Ontario = Beekeepers' Association 2007 Ontario Beekeeping Manual with an Emphasis on Integrated Pest Management = Skinner, Tam and Bannister Ontario Beekeepers' Association 2006 Edition **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:54:57 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Alarm Pheromone / Aggressive Ferals In-Reply-To: <389399.85054.qm@web86202.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Gavin: It has been gone over here before many times and is in the archives concerning painkillers, and by the way the research was for the most part published in the UK fwiw. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 21:06:40 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Brian writes: > we have apiguard, formic and OA depending on your situation > which do work. i'm not saying i'm > the worlds best beekeeper but I and others I know seem to > be able to keep bees alive using these > soft treatments. Reply: These are not soft treatments if they burn holes in bees bodies, creating wounds to vector in sedondary disesase. They also disrupt the inhouse beneficial co-existance of needed mites and other insects for co-existance living needed by our bees, for you cannot single our one or two to kill without killing all beneficial co-host relationships. Also, no one except Ramona and Dean recently have talked about the negating of beneficial microorganisms for making bee food (pollen and perhaps honey) eatable for long term survival.......... So just not buying what you are personally saying......for you only note the killing work done for what?....mites???? There is a whole lot more going on, sorry to say.........the truth is out there, and will eventually get out.... Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 21:40:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Colony Collapse Disorder Decimates Lebanon's Bee Population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Colony Collapse Disorder Decimates Lebanon's Bee Population Global scourge clips wings of Lebanon's beekeepers Crucial links in food chain are dying in record numbers By Esther Krenz Muller, The Daily Star, 6/3/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/06/colony-collapse-disorder-decimates.html BEIRUT: Many people think of bees as just another flying pest, but they are essential to modern civilization's ability to feed itself - and they are dying in unsettling numbers. "Since 2005, Lebanon's estimated 10,000 beekeepers have lost roughly one quarter of their 4 billion bees," Wadih Yazbek, manager of Yazbek Honey Est., told The Daily Star... Since 2006 baffled researchers have come up with a term for the mysterious phenomenon - Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD). In CCD-stricken hives, the entire adult population of worker bees (with the exception of the queen) flies off in search of pollen and mysteriously never returns to the hive. The bees aren't emigrating - they simply cannot find their way home due to disorientation and eventually succumb to exhaustion and cold, according to beekeepers and scientists worldwide... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 03:27:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Varroa control in late July or early August MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/06/2008 03:17:17 GMT Daylight Time, CSlade777@AOL.COM writes: <> I suspect that everything depends on the strain here, but I found that mine had less than half a dozen capped cells around New Year, so they're as near broodless as makes no difference. As I found out two years ago, the big danger is when there's an influx of mites in autumn, too late for the bees to raise a generation of unparasitised workers to overwinter. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 03:00:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Varroa control in late July or early August Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I haven't yet been brave enough to open a hive in December and destroy the sealed brood before applying the oxalic. Then how do you know they are not broodless in December? :) It won't harm the bees if you gently open the hive around 40F and sunny. Just don't cause too much commotion and you won't alarm the bees excessively. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:02:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: africanized bee questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob writes > AHB genetics can be found (if looked for) in most migratory operations I have been told. No restricitions of migratory movement in and out of areas There is a world of difference between bees with African DNA markers left over from spot imports of bees from Spain, Morocco, Egypt, and even Scuts -- and the massive invasion of essentially pure Scuts from South America. Advanced molecular techniques are required to uncover such genetic markers but the African bees in the USA have visible measurable characteristics that differentiate them from run of the mill US honey bees. By the way, the movement of African bees INTO New York State is illegal. Don't bring them here. SEE: Agricultural Research: What's Buzzing with Africanized Honey Bees? March 2004, USDA, Agricultural Research Service, by J. Kim Kaplan excerpts: Africanized honey bees are so called because it was assumed that the African honey bees spreading out from Brazil would interbreed with existing feral EHBs and create a hybridized, or Africanized, honey bee. This has always been a major question for researchers—what, if any, type of interbreeding would happen between AHBs and EHBs and how would this affect honey bee traits that are important to people, such as swarming and absconding, manageability for beekeepers, honey production, and temper. Many experts expected that the farther from a tropical climate AHBs spread, the more they would interbreed with EHBs. But it appears that interbreeding is a transient condition in the United States, according to ARS entomologist Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman. She is research leader at the Carl Hayden Bee Research Center in Tucson, Arizona, and ARS national coordinator for AHB research. "Early on, we thought the mixing would reach a steady state of hybridization, because we knew the two groups of bees can easily interbreed and produce young," DeGrandi-Hoffman says. "But while substantial hybridization does occur when AHBs first move into areas with strong resident EHB populations, over time European traits tend to be lost. Some African traits are genetically dominant, such as queen behavior, defensiveness, and some aspects of foraging behavior. This doesn't mean that EHB genes disappear, but rather that hybrid bees express more pure African traits. The persistence of some EHB genes is why the invading bees are still considered Africanized rather than African, regardless of trait expression, she points out. AHB swarms practice "nest usurpation," meaning they invade EHB colonies and replace resident queens with the swarm's African queen. Nest usurpation causes loss of European matrilines as well as patrilines. "In Arizona, we've seen usurpation rates as high as 20 to 30 percent," says DeGrandi-Hoffman. * * * SEE: Environmental physiology of the invasion of the Americas by Africanized honeybees Jon F. Harrison excerpts One of the best documented traits of AHB is a greater foraging preference for pollen relative to EHB (Winston 1992). This may be a central component of the higher growth rates observed in AHB in the tropics, as pollen serves as a nutrient source for brood production. Conversely, a focus on nectar collection allows EHB to accumulate larger stores of honey, enhancing overwintering capacity (Winston 1992). Differences in preference for pollen versus nectar between AHB and EHB are observed in co-fostered bees (providing a common environment), suggesting a genetic basis to these differences **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:17:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Rose Subject: Re: Varroa control in late July or early August In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Slade wrote: > > In the UK we tend nowadays not to have a broodless period, Hi Chris You live near the South coast. I don't think your experience is repeated in my district especially with bees carrying a decent proportion of native genes. It is certainly not repeated in my own apiaries where a broodless period can be almost guaranteed. Steve Rose Derbyshire, England. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:02:46 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Varroa control in late July or early August Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...when there's an influx of mites in autumn, too late for the bees to raise a generation of unparasitised workers to overwinter. On the other hand, if they are not broodless for most of your mild UK winter then they should start raising healthy bees following the OA treatment and recover their numbers by the end of April. I find that any colony that is on the smaller side going into the winter will continue raising more brood and longer that the larger colonies. [This is not in all cases but there is that general trend in my colonies.] I think bees have a clear concept of what they should maintain as a minimum critical mass cluster size and will strive to make adjustments by raising more brood in the winter given sufficient stores. I hear what Dee says about the potential loss of beneficial microorganism to acids. I have not read anything that said OA killed such organisms beyond recovery or what these organisms are. Anyone know of any online references to this? Are these microorganisms found exclusively in the hives or can they be re-introduced into the hives with the spring pollen? Thank you. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:45:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CAPABEES.CA =?Windows-1252?Q?=96?= REDESIGNED In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We appreciate any feedback you > have. Are you sure? The site provides good information but still is lacking in many areas or in other words quite a bit of valuable information has been left out *in my opinion*. To put it bluntly many beeks feel Canada is in denial about what caused their big die off. The rest of the beekeeping world thinks strange things are happening in their colonies and Canada blames the weather? Even China has stepped forward to report large unexplained bee die offs. As I have said before on BEE-L I have not spoke with a commercial beekeeper which has not reported seeing things in his/her bees over the last decade he/she has NEVER seen before. Trying to keep numbers of hives up is getting to be a problem in many operations. Dave Mendes reports constant splitting is his solution. My Canadian friends report the same situation. beekeepers are starved for up to date information on our problems. Thanks for the information you have provided! Spain has the best information on N. ceranae. Some Canadian beeks report bees not taking feed this spring but yet no mention on the site of the legal drench method? I f I was a betting man I would bet both IAPV and N. ceranae are in Canada and simply not yet found. Few can tell the spores of n. ceranae from n. apis by microscope. In the slide both look alike to me. Beekeepers need to know which nosema they are dealing with. In the U.S. the USDA-ARS has said most commercial migratory operations should consider they are dealing with nosema ceranae. Almost 100% of testing done has shown nosema ceranae and in many cases both nosema. We have been told nosema ceranae is somehow replacing nosema apis in our bees. It is my opinion that *if* you truly have not yet received nosema ceranae that it is only a matter of time so Canadian beeks need to learn all they can in advance of the problem. Hopefully you will find my criticism constructive and helpful. I would not have offered had you not asked. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:55:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: africanized bee questions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, All I can say is what % of the two and a half million colonies in the U.S. are our experts going to document. What % of the 30,000 bees in each hive? How often will the research be updated/ How many USDA-ARS researchers will be involved? My pet peeve right now is Nancy P. (congress) adding a 160 million dollar farm bill earmark to pay salmon fisherman for sitting on their butts while bee research gets not near enough research funds! 160 million dollars without a vote! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:53:29 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Varroa control in late July or early August Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>-- "waldig@netzero.com" wrote: Anyone know of any online references to this? Are these microorganisms found exclusively in the hives or can they be re-introduced into the hives with the spring pollen? http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=223733 is an interesting study on the effect of fa, oa, and hfcs on some fungi: "Given the competitive nature and high-sporing (conidia) activity of these species, our results suggest that alteration or disruption of the colony mycoflora can occur by use of thee compounds. This may indicate a possible link between compound application and incidence of bee fungal pathogens." ...also, lots of references cited in our paper at: http://www.BeeUntoOthers.com/NoBeeIsAnIsland.pdf note that there are over 8000 microorganisms found in a healthy bee hive...each with it's own tolerance for acids, temp, osmotic pressure, etc. a few other interesting facts i've come across: 1. formic acid is used to encourage lactic acid bacteria in the creation of silage (at least according to basf, who manufactures fa)...also gilliam cites other studies that show irradiated pollen inoculated specifically with lactic acid bacteria produces a beebread that is unattractive to the bees, as well as lacking in nutrition (it is postulated that yeast is important here). think of a small pond "fertilized" to the point where there is an algae bloom that chokes out other organisms. 2. in addition to the fa test we did, we also tested oa. we saw similar results. 3. in a recent nova episode profiling e.o.wilson ("lord of the ants"), he detailed an experiment where he fumigated a bunch of (i think mangrove) islands. the goal was to determine if/when the islands would return to their previous levels of habitation and biodiversity. he said that the number of organisms came back to the same levels...but the specific organisms were not the same. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:04:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Africanized bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote:>>>> the massive invasion of essentially pure Scuts from South America.<<<<< This would tend to lump all southern AHBs in the same basket. This would not jibe with the facts. They do have a beekeeping industry down there and there is much variation. I could attach a picture of a peasant beekeeper working bees in a T-shirt or refer you to my friend that has worked these bees in five countries without gloves. In a personal communication with a Brazilian beek: he said that: ".. of my 100 hives, 80 are manageable; the rest are psychotic." And you couldn't give an EHB colony away down there as they are regarded as wells of disease and mites. I'm not saying they are not "pure," just embellishing what is meant by that word. Dick Marron **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:19:54 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Comments: To: kgbenson@sc.rr.com In-Reply-To: <15793414.882081212494975694.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web18-z02> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Keith: Open up the books by Bailey, Ball, Gilliam.....i.e. Pests, Predators and Diseases and simply read. Nothing hard. Even Al Dietz wrote some on the subject matter. Much is interdependent within a beehive with insects and micro-organisms working together. Always has and always will be, no matter what man thinks shouldn't bee there. Break the balance and then you create problems; and man is certainly good at that with the bigger is better junk. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:23:24 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: africanized bee questions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter, Your last paragraph says it all, for what bees are, depending upon state in, and locale, IMPOV....For it says there will never be uniformity in USA! Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:18:34 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: africanized bee questions In-Reply-To: <12DC21C2AD764342AE3635B784AA7884@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob: Like your percentages quoted and years. Shows that with only small cell beekeepers left more and more the small cell size determines the makeup of the bees fwiw which means what for DNA and other? :>) Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:24:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---- Dee Lusby wrote: > Keith: > Open up the books by Bailey, Ball, Gilliam.....i.e. Pests, Predators and Diseases and simply read. Or conversely - since the idea was originally posted, the OP could simply provide a few examples. Nothing hard. I did not say it was hard. It would also not be hard for you to post a few species. and a breif phrase ebout their benefits to the hive. >Much is interdependent within a beehive with insects and micro-organisms working together. Always has and always will be, no matter what man thinks shouldn't bee there. No one said that there should not be anything like this going on in a beehive - I was merely asking for specifics. You seem to know of some. Perhaps you might share? Nothing hard.. > Break the balance and then you create problems; and man is certainly good at that with the bigger is better junk. And smaller, let us not forget nanotech . . . . ;) Keith **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:00:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: africanized bee questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: >Peter, >Your last paragraph says it all, for what bees are, depending upon state in, and locale, IMPOV....For it says there will never be uniformity in USA! I haven't written my last paragraph yet. They'll let you know when I did. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:50:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Alarm Pheromone / Aggressive Ferals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > You basically cannot take medications and work honeybees without expecting problems, especially pain killers. Well, I never heard that one before. I have heard that bees don't sting an honest man, and they don't like drinkers. To tell you the truth, I never saw evidence for those -- ouch! What was that for? pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:51:51 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit keith, there are many references in our paper...almost all are available to read online. http://www.BeeUntoOthers.com/NoBeeIsAnIsland.pdf deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:15:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings In-Reply-To: <200806031004.m539vOBR017471@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The claim that pain killers (specifically ibuprofen) exacerbate bee sting reactions got a lot of circulation back in the late 1990s, and my recollection is it was debunked as internet myth. But heaven knows how hard to die are those internet myths! Elsewhere on the internet you will find recommendations to take ibuprofen to relieve the pain of bee stings! "... taken from the book "Understanding Prescription Drugs", by Dorthy L. Smith, Pharm D., pp. 270 and 271; Reference: British Medical Journal 292:378, 1986." Original source, http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9803B&L=BEE-L&P=R2348&I =-3 Aaron Morris - thinking posted on BEE-L, it HAS to be true! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:32:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Simms Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't use any kind of painkillers, but as a sideliner, I am fairly allerg= ic to bee stings.=A0 I have even experienced systemic reactions from a bee = sting:=A0got itchy palms, itchy feet and broke out in hives (not bee hives,= unfortunately)=A0within 1 minute after being stung in the elbow.=A0 That i= s a bad sign and harbinger of a potentially dramatic reaction in the future= .=A0 So, I always have Benedryl and a cell phone with me in the apiary.=0AE= ric=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:13:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---- Aaron Morris wrote: > The claim that pain killers (specifically ibuprofen) exacerbate bee > sting reactions got a lot of circulation back in the late 1990s, and my > recollection is it was debunked as internet myth. There are a few cases in the literature of other NSAIDS, but nothing like an actual study. It may well not be a true phenomenon. Then again, it might. I don't think it happens often enough to generate any interest in studying it. > But heaven knows how > hard to die are those internet myths! Elsewhere on the internet you > will find recommendations to take ibuprofen to relieve the pain of bee > stings! Indeed - not just on the internet but in any number of texts. It works for me if I have a nasty sting early in the season. Stings are inflammatory in nature, and these are antiinflammatories! The Sensitization thing is supposed to occur with chronic use and resolves when the drug is withdrawn. Keith **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:38:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Varroa control in late July or early August MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/06/2008 13:28:35 GMT Standard Time, steverose@TISCALI.CO.UK writes: I don't think your experience is repeated in my district A few years ago Defra carried out an experiment in which hives were opened and brood areas checked at fortnightly intervals throughout the year. Ian Homer (now RBI south) and his wife Ruth were living in Northumberland and did the test there and found no broodless period. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:32:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Varroa control in late July or early August MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/06/2008 11:35:15 GMT Standard Time, waldig@NETZERO.NET writes: I haven't yet been brave enough to open a hive in December and destroy the sealed brood before applying the oxalic. Then how do you know they are not broodless in December? :) I've seen the brood but didn't have the heart to destroy it. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:42:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: CAPABEES.CA =?Windows-1252?Q?=96?= REDESIGNED MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/06/2008 16:30:17 GMT Standard Time, busybeeacres@HUGHES.NET writes: Few can tell the spores of n. ceranae from n. apis by microscope. The UK Central Science laboratory has been looking at old Nosema samples using their PCR machine and find that N. ceranae has been here for years. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:17:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lesli Sagan Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings In-Reply-To: <626068.75277.qm@web36602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I found a reference to this painkiller and sting issue on Dave Cushman's site: "Some beekeepers are reporting bad reactions to bee stings when they have taken pain killers or anti-inflammatory drugs. The drugs may reverse their immunity to bee stings. Such drugs include:- IBUPROFEN, FENOPROFEN, NAPROXEN, KETOPROFEN, SULINDAC, PIROXICAM, SUPROFED AND TOLMETIN. It has been recently reported that people who considered that they had an immunity to bee stings... Suffered much increased reactions to bee and wasp stings after taking a non steroidal anti-inflammatory drug. Beekeepers are advised to stay away from ADVID and TYLENOL and over the counter pain killers in general. If any pain relief is required... Then take only ASPIRIN." http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/beestings.html He doesn't have a reference to his source, unfortunately. -- ***************************** Lesli Sagan lesli.sagan@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:11:48 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All An interesting thread, all in all. Eric: > .... and broke out in hives (not bee hives, unfortunately) within 1 minute > after being stung in the elbow. That is a bad sign ..... Sure is! You might be lucky and have no further trouble, or you might not be. The problem is that your Benadryl and cell phone might not be effective enough or fast enough. Slight chance of it happening, but the possibility of serious consequences if it does. Your local hospital should be able to organise a RAST test for the wrong kind of antibody, and perhaps if necessary you can find a place willing to do desensitisation if you need it? Having been through the treatment - injections of vanishingly small doses of venom building up to two stings worth over 12 weeks, then a maintenance dose - it sure gives you confidence if nothing else that you can cope with the next bee sting to come along. Dee: > and by the way the research was for the most part published in the UK fwiw. Unfortunately not a guarantee of excellence in research! I'll go with Aaron and assume that this is an internet myth. Me (some time ago now): > Inhaling venom is thought by some to have a role in precipitating later > allergies. Having read some interesting posts from Eric and others, and Googled, I have to say that I might have been propagating an internet myth too. The idea came from an experienced commercial bee guy who has described the experiences of himself and his family to some of us on another forum. His experiences suggested that inhalation may sensitise and injection desensitise, but this doesn't seem to be the orthodox view amongst immunologists. And yes, I was speculating that the spraying of alarm pheromone *might* be associated with the release of some venom. They can certainly deposit venom on glass plates when given an electric shock by a sadistic beekeeper intent on collecting venom for profit, so perhaps they can do so when intent on stinging a veil? all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:26:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/06/2008 18:44:23 GMT Standard Time, ericdavidsimms@YAHOO.COM writes: I have even experienced systemic reactions from a bee sting: got itchy palms, itchy feet and broke out in hives Happened to me once about 25 years ago. The Doctor told me to give up beekeeping. I had hives again last year after a clutch of wasp stings and so now keep anti histamines in the car. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:57:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---- "deknow@netzero.net" wrote: > keith, there are many references in our paper...almost all are available to read online. There were footnotes, one or two to actual data, and yet, most of the questions I posed remain. Keith **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:43:06 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee said: > Much is interdependent within a beehive with > insects and micro-organisms working together. This appears to be a theme in some recent posts, so I'll go further than Keith and ask if there is any sort of peer-reviewed work that supports the claim that any SPECIFIC microorganisms are required for the uses claimed, such as "bee bread". Specific species. Merely finding a microorganism in a beehive or in "bee bread" is not sufficient, one must consistently find a unique species or set of species that perform a specific unique function. Any decent baker is familiar with "sourdough" breads and starters, where so-called "wild yeasts" are allowed to grow in a "starter" mix. The thing about sourdough is that, regardless of which yeasts happen to fall into the starter and grow, the bread is pretty decent bread. Any yeast will do, and it would surprise or disgust many readers to know what sort of yeasts are found as "significant" in many sourdoughs. Dekow's repeated claim that "No Hive Is An Island" is still lacks an acknowledgement of my observation that "No Hive Lives In A Vacuum". Specifically, even if one did the best one could do to "sterilize" a hive, such as with irradiation, the bees themselves would soon bring in an adequate mix of random yeasts, molds and other "microorganisms" to replace any that might have been killed off by the irradiation or other treatment (acid, fumes, whatever). Further, I don't ever recall anyone saying that the bees needed anything except enzymes to make "bee bread", and I expect from the many lab studies done to date that we could raise perfectly healthy bees on irradiated pollen, pure sugar water made from irradiated sugar and distilled water, and purified air in a sealed environment. It would be a boring life for the bees, but my point would be that bees can not just survive, but thrive in a "sterile" environment, where all microogranisms are deliberately hunted down and killed on a regular and consistent basis. If anyone wants to fund such an experiment, I'd be happy to help design the gear, and/or run the trials. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:01:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Honeybee Immune System MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read in a back number of the New Scientist dated 25 October 2003 that "A separate study in the same journal [Proceedings of the Royal Society] showed bees' learning abilities suffer if their immune systems are on high alert. Eamonn Mallon at the University of Zurich, Switzerland, and his colleagues injected bees with a bacterial protein that was not toxic but that did stimulate the bees' immune systems. Then they trained these bees and untreated ones to associate a flower scent with food. Twelve minutes after training, 60 per cent of the untreated bees had learned the trick compared with just 30 per cent of the treated bees. Mallon suggests their immune systems and brains compete for the same chemicals." Could it be that this points towards part of the explanation why bees are having problems? Their immune systems must be alerted as never before by the effects of varroa and all it transmits; by random environmental pollution; by sub-lethal doses of various agricultural chemicals applied to the land, to seeds and to growing plants; and by the substances secreted by some varieties of GM plants that are not found in conventional ones? Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:08:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Every Third Bite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.mediathatmattersfest.org/8/ mini documentary click on honeybee image in upper right matrix I've had trouble loading the site yesterday but today its working **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:36:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: > Open up the books by Bailey, Ball, etc. I have Bailey and Ball's book right here and I can see nothing in it to support any of your statements. In fact, Bailey was a huge proponent of fumigation of all sorts: formalin, acetic acid, ethylene oxide, and irradiation. He very briefly mentions beneficial micro-organisms: > Well-known symbiotes include those that dwell in the gut of termites and ferment cellulose, enabling the insects to subsist on a diet of wood. A related class of such organisms, but of unknown significance, live in the gut of honey bees. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:40:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim, it seems to me that you have set up a catch 22 situation when you say that it is impossible to isolate a colony of bees from its accompanying micro flora and fauna on the one hand and then say that bees can “thrive in a "sterile" environment, where all microorganisms are deliberately hunted down and killed on a regular and consistent basis” on the other hand. Furthermore, I’m not sure I see the difference between claiming that at least some microorganisms are beneficial if not vital to the health of honeybees without providing any scientific peer reviewed data in support of that argument, and claiming that no such organisms are beneficial without providing any supporting scientific data on that side of the argument. Actually I would tend to agree that such experimental evidence supporting either argument would be damn near impossible to come by for the reasons you mention; no way to construct a vacuum in which bees could live. So it’s kind of like proving or disproving the existence of God isn’t it. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:57:35 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Honeybee Immune System MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A... study... showed... 60 per cent of the untreated bees had > learned... compared with just 30 per cent of the treated bees. > Mallon suggests their immune systems and brains compete for > the same chemicals. A very good find! Now I have to go read that article. Regardless if I have an infection or merely the symptoms of an infection, I'm not likely to absorb new material very quickly either. One could say "sick bees don't learn well". There need be no specific impact on the by now, fabled "immune system", the one that is less complex than the immune system of a fruit fly from a simple count of the genetic base pairs allocated to the function. But what new material must a bee "learn" to be able to find its way back to the hive? Nothing. Bees learn their local terrain only once - when they first orient to their hive location shortly after hatching out. Bees can re-learn the UV-pattern coordinates of their hive every time they are forced to re-orient due to relocation of the hive. (See Bill Towne's work at U. Kutztown's website for details.) > Their immune systems must be alerted as never before > by the effects of varroa and all it transmits But varroa has been around since the mid 1980s in the US, and the problems that might be due to a "failure to learn" are very recent. > by random environmental pollution But pollution was much much worse in the 1970s and 1980s than it is today. > by sub-lethal doses of various agricultural chemicals > applied to the land, to seeds and to growing plants Now we are getting into areas where data is needed to support the contention. Given the simplicity of the experiments cited, one assumes that it would be easy to repeat them with each of a wide range of the usual suspect chemicals and pesticides. > and by the substances secreted by some varieties of > GM plants that are not found in conventional ones? What substances would be secreted by GM plants that are not secreted by the conventional ones? I'm no big fan of Monsanto myself, but I've yet to hear anyone come up with any tangible challenge to the EPA doctrine of "substantial equivalence", and actual differences in plant secretions would turn this EPA mindset on its ear, if even a tiny difference could be found and shown to be repeatable in the hands of multiple lab techs in multiple labs. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:59:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Benson wrote: >There were footnotes, one or two to actual data, and yet, most of the questions I posed remain. I have a copy of Martha Gilliam's 1997 paper. It is a fascinating piece of work. The honey bee colony is a miracle of complexity and it certainly is plausible that the dumping of chemicals into the nest would have a very deleterious effect. I thank Dean for bringing it to our attention. It is also quite certain that the presence of pathogenic organisms such as varroa, nosema, AFB and the rest have a devastating impact, which frequently results in the death of the colony. So which is worse, the cure or the disease? That is always what it boils down to. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:13:28 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Cinderblock colony removal. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'd like to run an idea by you folks to see what you all think. The cinderblock bldg company called back saying they want me to remove the bee colonies. In fact, they think there is a third colony in the wall judging by the distance of its entrance from the other ones... Anyway, my first instinct approach was to take the cinderblocks out one by one starting at the entrance at the top. That's a lot of work... I was brain storming alternatives while installing a window in a brick wall at my house yesterday and thought it would be a lot easier to use a masonary blade [on a saw or a grinder] to cut just through the exterior cinderblock walls at the sides of each hollow. Cutting down this way through the courses of cinder blocks should reveal the narrow combs in the hollows. Vacuuming off the bees and cutting out the combs should be a lot easier then, too. What do you all think about this approach? The only downside to this approach that I see is putting the cinder block sections back in although mortaring these cut pieces back in should be a lot easier than setting entire cinder blocks back in... Dee (and anyone else), I have 4 questions for you: - when you were extracting bees out of cinder block walls, were there two narrow combs in the block hollows? - how many feet - horizontally and vertically - did the combs extend? - did you drill pilot holes in the mortar between the blocks to judge the extent of the nest? - I think the convective chimney effect in the cinderblock hollow should carry smoke with a bee repellent injected at the bottom of the nest's extent up through the nest pretty effectively. Would the repellent drive the bees and the QUEEN up and out through the top entrance in your experience? This will be my first cinderblock extraction and I'd love to hear everyone's input and advice. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:05:34 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter Borst: . So which is worse, the > cure or the > disease? That is always what it boils down to. Reply: Would seem to me if the cure helps to bring on secondary diseases, and contamination, and malnutrition by creating imbalances then you have shot yourself in the foot with the various treatments. Also if going back to small cell and more naturally sized combs eliminates the need for the treatments, and puts the hives back into balance, and with contamination you have to change the combs out anyways, then why not just do it and be done with the continuing problem of out of balance hives with their co-existant organisms. D- **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:25:17 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Cinderblock colony removal. In-Reply-To: <20080603.161328.17702.0@webmail07.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Walemar: > - when you were extracting bees out of cinder block walls, > were there two narrow combs in the block hollows? Reply: Out here with codes there are solid filled cinder block every few feet so the width cannot go far, but the length sure can of the long and narrow combs.and mor then two narrow combs can be found in block hollows depending upon the type of block as 88s vary in casting. continuing: > - how many feet - horizontally and vertically - did the > combs extend? > Reply: They were limited by the solidly poured lines every few feet width wise for using, but vertically in a back and forth comb building mode, they could often extend vertically 8-12-16 feet or more, depending upon the height of the wall/building. continuing: > - did you drill pilot holes in the mortar between the > blocks to judge the extent of the nest? reply: Yes, and if judged too much work then I filled in the tops with newspaper crumpled up and jammed it in and then capped the section between the solid poured lines of cement, though it certainly makes a person cry to kill stuff that way. But other then that you have to then cut the section open with a circular saw and cement blade or pick ax it open, and then it has to be resealed back up and that is not much fun either. continuing: > - I think the convective chimney effect in the cinderblock > hollow should carry smoke with a bee repellent injected at > the bottom of the nest's extent up through the nest > pretty effectively. Would the repellent drive the bees and > the QUEEN up and out through the top entrance in your > experience? Reply: It gets bees flying for sure, but many times the queen is lost and then no one can work around the area for several days after doing this too! and so because of this, is reason why many would pay the extra to cap the tops off and or simply fill with foam or cement poured in and move on, for it means less time tearing apart, and less bees aggressively flying and stinging and in cities in high density areas you certainly don't want this happening..... Dee **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 23:47:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T'N'T Apiaries Subject: Re: CAPABEES.CA =?Windows-1252?Q?=96?= REDESIGNED MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob I don't know where you got the idea that we don't know we have Nosema Ceranae. Our Provincial Apiarist (Alberta) has been taking about it for a couple years and for some time has confirmed its presence in Canada. In fact the Provincial newletter arrived today reminding beekeepers what and how to monitor and treat for it. On the CAPABEES website, centre right on the home page is a picture of spores with the heading "Nosema Disease: Dignosis & Control". Click on that and the first paragraph under Basic Biology states: "Caused by two different spieces of Nosema apis and Nosema ceranae." Both spores are pictured on the right large enough that one can easily tell the difference in size. The article goes on to discuss both. Excellent point about the spray/drench, but hardly denial. Dave Tharle Ardmore, AB **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:00:47 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim was asking for studies showing that specific bacteria is used by bees to make bee bread. I don't have this, but believe it is most likely true because of recent find by Swedish doctor Tobias Olofsson. I was listening his talk in February. He is a microbiologist and as his grandfather is a beekeeper so he got interested to see if bees collected microbes from flowers into honey. He could not found them, but for his surprise he found several kinds of lactic and bifidobacteria in nectar that was under process of becoming honey inside the hive. He was able to backtrack that these bacteria had their origin within honeybee gut, and actually it looks like some of the species have evolved with bees as they have not been found in any other place. Bees use these bacteria to ferment nectar into honey and the bacteria have an big part in process of making the honey to keep well ( foe example lactic acid in honey). He stated that in his eyes honey is fermented product as these bacteria have a big part in production process. The bacteria live in new honey for few weeks but die and disappear after that. Only the end products of their work stay in honey. So the bacteria can not be found in old honey. He took samples during the whole summer and saw that the amounts of different bacteria varied according to main crops. Some bacteria grow better in other nectar than other. I asked if he had studied the bee bread fermentation and lactic bacteria in it. He said that not yet, but he will be working with it. Hope to be able see those results some day, but if the honeybees harbour lactic bacteria specific only to them, and lactic bacteria is involved in bee bread process I would be very surprised if these two things would not have anything in common. For the ongoing discussion. Tobias did not say anything about possible effects of varroa treatments to these bacteria. I have personal experience for 10 years of varroa treatments with oxalic, thymol and formic and must say that if there is effects they must be so small that I have not seen them. Ari Seppälä Finland **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 08:14:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: CAPABEES.CA - REDESIGNED MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote: > The UK Central Science laboratory ... find that N. ceranae has been here > for years. How many years? Do you have any references? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:59:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings In-Reply-To: <297545600806031117l747e100n125d36999293fa7b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lesli > I found a reference to this painkiller and sting issue on Dave Cushman's > site: Most of what is said about modified reactions on the page... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/beestings.html resulted from information widely spread during the late 1990s, if this has been debunked, I would welcome the recent information to enable me to produce an update for the page. I have no desire to propagate incorrect or misleading information. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://www.dave-cushman.net (http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman) Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.01/2.01 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 07:16:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CAPABEES.CA =?Windows-1252?Q?=96?= REDESIGNED In-Reply-To: <000801c8c606$8036af30$6501a8c0@Office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I don't know where you got the idea that we don't know we have Nosema > Ceranae. >From my sources but even your website **does not say** N. ceranae is in Canada. Instead in the first section under Biology you say: "N. ceranae *may* have been introduced" May? (should be positive find?) Has N. ceranae been found or not? If so how many years has N. ceranae been in Canada? Looks like at least 10 years in the U.S. Last I heard 1998 and still looking at old samples. Our Provincial Apiarist (Alberta) has been taking about it for a > couple years and for some time has confirmed its presence in Canada. Why not say so at your website? Some of you fellow beeks (even on BEE-L) might be finding right now that a confirmed find of N. ceranae has been found in Canada. > Both spores are pictured on the right large enough that one can easily > tell the difference in size. easily? I beg to differ. The spores are hard to tell apart and especially when both nosema spores are in the same sample. A couple other points which might help the site. Under the following you could post Spain research and opinions as Canada is only starting the fight against N. ceranae like the USDA-ARS. Capabees,ca-redesigned Biology 2. The seasonal cycle of N. ceranae remains unknown. ( years of Spain research pretty well sums up seasonal cycle) 3.The impact of N.ceranae has not been determined, but some early research suggests the effects are more severe. suggests? (I created waves with the USDA-ARS because they did not want to simply tell us what Spain had learned and instead make us wait six years till they had reinvented the wheel) Thanks to the research from Spain tens of thousands of hives dying from N. ceranae in the U.S. have been saved. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 07:24:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Capabees.Ca-redesigned In-Reply-To: <484616A5.3020905@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > http://www.cbc.ca/canada/prince-edward-island/story/2007/07/24/nb-nosemaceranae.html > > http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2007.11.23.14.17.archive.html > bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:02:41 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Cinderblock colony removal. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>often extend vertically 8-12-16 feet or more, depending upon the height of the wall This building is approx. 24 ft high and at least 2 of the colonies have been there since last year which means the nests could potentially extend the entire height of the wall... >>capped the section between the solid poured lines of cement, though it certainly makes a person cry to kill stuff that way. It comes down to practicality, I guess. I won't take the entire wall apart just to get the queens. >>bee repellent<< It gets bees flying for sure, but many times the queen is lost and then no one can work around the area for several days after doing this too! I would vacuum up the bees as they emerge from the entrance hole. Any airborne bees would try to re-enter just to get sucked into the hose. Thank you for sharing your experience. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:06:01 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit the m.gilliam references in this post come from: "Identification and roles of non-pathogenic microflora associated with honey bees" Martha Gilliam U.S. Department of Agriculture, Agricultural Research Service, Carl Hayden Bee Research Center, 2000 E. Allen Road, Tucson, AZ 85719, USA Recieved June 1997, accepted july 1997 -- James Fischer wrote: >>if there is any sort of peer-reviewed work that supports the claim that any SPECIFIC microorganisms are required for the uses claimed, such as "bee bread". Specific species. this is a very understudied area of bee research. m.gilliam did cite a study where pollen was irradiated and then innoculated only by lactic acid bacteria. while not exactly what you are asking for, it does show that not every microorganism (not even the obvious suspects) will produce suitable beebread: "The conversion of pollen to bee bread and the accompanying biochemical changes have been postulated to result from microbial action, principally a lactic acid fermentation caused by bacteria and yeasts. However, Pain and Maugenet sterilized pollen with (gamma?)-irradiation, then seeded it with Lactobacillus, and determined that a pure lactic acid fermentation produced an unappetizing product of poor nutritive value for bees. They thought that yeasts played the most important role from a nutritional standpoint." >>one must consistently find a unique species or set of species that perform a specific unique function. again, from m. gilliam, wrt chalkbrood: "A secondary mechanism of resistance is the addition durring pollen collection and storage by bees of antagonistic molds and Bacillus spp. that inhibit the pathogen. Bee colonies that are resistant or tollerant have more of these antagnists. Antimycotic substances active against A. apis were not produced by bees, larvae, bee bread, or honey. However, bee bread and the guts of worker bees, the major source of the pathogen, were the primary sources of the antagonistic microorganisms. Thus, antimycotic substances were produced by microorganisms that originated in worker bee intestines. These microorganisms were added to pollen by the bees."..."Twenty-seven strains of antagonistic endospore-forming bacteria were isolated and identified as belonging to six species (paenibacillus alvei, B. circulans, B. licheniformis, B. megaterium, B. pumilus, and B. subtilis)." >Dekow's repeated claim that "No Hive Is An Island" is still lacks an acknowledgement of my observation that "No Hive Lives In A Vacuum". actually, i responded to your observation. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0805C&L=BEE-L&P=R2326&I=-3 >Specifically, even if one did the best one could do to "sterilize" a hive, such as with irradiation, the bees themselves would soon bring in an adequate mix of random yeasts, molds and other "microorganisms" to replace any that might have been killed off by the irradiation or other treatment (acid, fumes, whatever). >>>with all due respect jim, this is not an observation, this is postulation....unless you have observed this. Further, I don't ever recall anyone saying that the bees needed anything except enzymes to make "bee bread", "Our studies of floral and corbicular pollen and of bee bread stored over time in comb cells of the hive, all from the same plant species, demonstrated that pollen from a flower changes microbiologically and biochemically as soon as a honey bee collects it. Bees moisten pollen with regurgitated nectar or honey to facilitate packeing inot he corbiculae, add glandular secretions, and inoculate it with microbes." >and I expect ...we could raise perfectly healthy bees on irradiated pollen, pure sugar water made from irradiated sugar and distilled water, and purified air in a sealed environment. although i'm sure the bees could survive for some period of time under such conditions, i seriously doubt that you could keep a colony healthy long term under such conditions....especially if one were to sterilize the bees themselves of microorganisms. >It would be a boring life for the bees, but my point would be that bees can not just survive, but thrive in a "sterile" environment, where all microogranisms are deliberately hunted down and killed on a regular and consistent basis. if this is your "point", what data is it based on? i think it's more of an assumption. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:35:41 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Peter Borst wrote: >The honey bee colony is a miracle of complexity and it certainly is plausible that the dumping of chemicals into the nest would have a very deleterious effect. I thank Dean for bringing it to our attention. thank you peter...and i should mention that most of the credit for going down this path of inquiry goes to my wife. as i've mentioned before, it was actually on our wedding night that things fell into place and started making sense. >So which is worse, the cure or the disease? That is always what it boils down to. as dee pointed out, you are ignoring the fact that many of these diseases often exist as secondary infections. killing off one microorganism can encourage another to grow rapidly (either through not being held in check by the target organism, or by the target organim's food source becoming available). in my wife's experience, she never gets a yeast infection _unless_ she is put on antibiotics for some reason. it is a pretty competitive environment for microorganisms in a beehive, and it's been clearly shown that antibiotics will increase yeast populations (indicating that the bacteria affected affect the yeasts)...this is too complex to look at as 1:1 relationships. in order to really study microbe biology of the beehive effectively, one must study hives that are not treated....just like if one were studying the microbe biology in a human, one would not start by looking at someone on radiation treatment or antibiotics...these are cases that are valuable to compare with an untreated baseline...but what value do they have unless compared to an untreated baseline? deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:36:09 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve said: > ... catch 22 situation... impossible to isolate a > colony of bees from its accompanying micro flora > and fauna This is "impossible" in nature, and in production beekeeping, but it would not be difficult at all in a "lab environment", even a low-budget one. > [You] say that bees can "thrive in a 'sterile' environment, > where all microorganisms are deliberately hunted down and > killed on a regular and consistent basis" Yes, this would be the essence of the test one could do to verify that "sterilization" of combs and hives do not have long term impact on bee health, and that outside "microflora and microfauna" are not mission-critical to colony survival/health. If the colony died out, the flora and fauna would be mission-critical. > experimental evidence supporting either argument would be > damn near impossible to come by for the reasons you mention; > no way to construct a vacuum in which bees could live. I don't see it as difficult at all to construct a sterile environment in which to keep a tiny colony of a hundred bees or so and a queen. Do you see a major hurdles? If so, what would they be? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:03:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lesli Sagan Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings In-Reply-To: <297545600806040705w5e7ab0f9td30a81ee57720a14@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 6:59 AM, Dave Cushman > wrote: > >> Most of what is said about modified reactions on the page... resulted from >> information widely spread during the late 1990s, if this has been debunked, >> I would welcome the recent information to enable me to produce an update for >> the page. >> >> I have no desire to propagate incorrect or misleading information. >> >> I don't know if it has been debunked; I think I've found a possible source of the "internet rumor": http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1339355&pageindex=1 "Sensitivity to insect stings in patients taking anti-inflammatory drugs" from The British Medical Journal, 1986. It isn't a study, though, but a couple of cases that are used as possible indicators for a need for a study. -- ***************************** Lesli Sagan lesli.sagan@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:12:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Looking for pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Global Patties plant in Butte Montana is looking for up to 20,000 pounds of quality US-produced pollen annually, for use in bee feed. Global is currently paying around $3 per pound for irradiated US pollen through middlemen and would like to contract directly with interested beekeepers for a reliable supply. Beekeepers or dealers wishing to supply pollen to Global should write to mike@globalpatties.com or phone 1-866-948-6084 toll-free. Global Patties is an innovative, low-cost producer of quality bee feed. Learn more about Global at http://www.globalpatties.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 08:21:12 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings In-Reply-To: <4846759F.2010106@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > resulted from information widely spread during the late > 1990s Reply: The information was published in the 1980s/early 1990s and not the late 1990s..........Even Bee Culture and ABJ published short paragraphs giving cites. Just go back and pull it up. D **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:50:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings In-Reply-To: <200806041218.m54CGQeY011769@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman asked for a definitive source for the debunking of the alleged rumor that ibuprophen exacerbates reactions to bee stings. Go to www.debunkrumors.org scroll down to "Cell Phones Cause CCD" click on that link, and search on subsequent pages. You won't find it. I was never able to find substantiation for the claim other than a reference to a publication I never read or even heard of. I discussed said rumor with my Md., who was quite surprised by the assertion and requested references. I was not able to find anything other a reference to a publication I never read or even heard of. Dee offered the helpful tip that "Even Bee Culture and ABJ published short paragraphs giving cites. Just go back and pull it up." Well, my collection of BC and ABJ is not as extensive as Dee's, and frankly the year end indices of the previous year's issues is too tedious for me to even think of searching for the obscure references. Furthermore, simply publishing it or citing references does not make it so. Lesli's observation that "It isn't a study, though, but a couple of cases that are used as possible indicators for a need for a study" offers the possibility that a mountain was made of a molehill. Admittedly, repercussions may be mountainous for the moles, but the more I looked into the assertion, the less substantiation I was able to find for the rumor. And today, if you look for references today you will find more recommendations to use any-prophens to relieve the pain of a sting than you will find warnings the any-prophens will exacerbate the reactions. The hub-bub about the rumors died down after its 15 minutes expired over a decade ago. I was never able to find solid substantiation of the rumor. It is my opinion that any regurgitation of the old, tired rumor should include reference to Einstein and cell phones. In the meantime, I take aspirin. Aaron Morris - thinking it's out there, just look it up! If you find it, it must be true. Forever. Regardless. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:07:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Ibuprofin. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron wrote: >>>>> In the meantime, I take aspirin.<<<<< Since aspirin is a blood thinner, one could make the case that it would spread the venom faster. Would that be good as in dissipating it; would it be bad as promoting a generalized reaction? Ginko would have the same effect. Mixing drugs (venom+aspirin) could have unintended side effects. Still, I use a combination of Ginko and Viagra so I can remember what sex was like. Dick Marron **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:16:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings In-Reply-To: <828202.64775.qm@web86204.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gavin >> Inhaling venom is thought by some to have a role in precipitating later >> allergies. One of the most impressive lectures that I have attended in recent years was one delivered by Prof. Peter Lachmann (a non beekeeper) in year 2000 at the Cambridge one day event, he came down heavily on the side of inhalation of dried venom being a serious risk. http://www2.le.ac.uk/ebulletin/publications/2000-2009/2005/08/orations/lachmann Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://www.dave-cushman.net (http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman) Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.01/2.01 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:39:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Varroa control in late July or early August MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ---- "deknow@netzero.net" wrote: > ...also, lots of references cited in our paper at: > http://www.BeeUntoOthers.com/NoBeeIsAnIsland.pdf An interesting read . . . but there are some inaccuracies in there and some analogies that simply don't work. > note that there are over 8000 microorganisms found in a healthy bee hive...each with it's own tolerance for acids, temp, osmotic pressure, etc. There are trillions of organisms found in a hive. There are prolly thousands of varieties in any given hive and prolly more than 8000 discrete species that could potentially be identified in any hive. A good number if not the vast majority are likely found outside hives as well. I think this is more likely what you meant. The same thing could be said about a house. Remember - just because you find something somewhere doesn't always mean it is part of some complex mutually beneficial arrangement (it also doesn't mean it isn't). It might just be there. Or it might be there to the detriment of other organisms that it is feeding on, competing with, parasitizing etc. And these relationships can change over time and with circumstances and perspective. > a few other interesting facts i've come across: > > gilliam cites other studies that show irradiated pollen inoculated specifically with lactic acid bacteria produces a beebread that is unattractive to the bees, as well as lacking in nutrition (it is postulated that yeast is important here). OK - so bees should not bee treated like cattle. OK, we can all agree to that. No silage for the bees. >think of a small pond "fertilized" to the point where there is an algae bloom that chokes out other organisms. Like when you are fermenting bread, wine, beer, sourkraut, bee bread etc. to a desired end point with a small number of select fermenters being selected for and others against? A product fermented in a controlled manner is a product, everything else is merely rotting. And then the question is: Do either of these acids, when used as per instructions, adversely affect the fermentation and nutrition of pollen stored in combs? Would Ozone? > 2. in addition to the fa test we did, we also tested oa. we saw similar results. About that test, I have a couple questions: How uniform were the drops you used? What concentration of FA and OA were in each drop? How did you verify this? What was the pH of the yeast suspension before and after the addition of the acids? The osmolarity? Is the activity of bread yeast and it's susceptibility to alteration in pH similar to that of the organisms that act on pollen to make bee bread? Or is their only similarity that we use the word bread when referring to either of them? How did you select the temperature at which you held the yeast solutions? (S. cerevisiae works best at about 30°C (86° F). There is little activity in the range of 0°-10°C. Above 37°C yeast cells become stressed and will not divide properly. Most yeast cells die above 50°C (122°F).- From wikipedia) Being temp stressed could certainly make them more susceptible to the rather large sounding (with the limited data available) dose of acid you hit them with. How did you select the sugar concentration you used? What was the osmolality? Do changes in osmolality affect the susceptibility of yeast to the inhibitory effects of these acids or pH shifts? I won't go on. But I think it is important to understand when an experiment in a "paper" is well designed and laid out and relevant . . . an when it is perhaps not. > 3. in a recent nova episode profiling E.O.Wilson ("lord of the ants"), he detailed an experiment where he fumigated a bunch of (i think mangrove) islands. the goal was to determine if/when the islands would return to their previous levels of habitation and biodiversity. he said that the number of organisms came back to the same levels...but the specific organisms were not the same. Makes sense. Particularly on an island. If you eliminate somethi9ng, and there is not a reserve population, they are not coming back. Given that a beehive is grand central station, and the proclivity of honeybees to share their gut contents with one another, does the analogy stand? I suspect it does, but to less a degree than you are likely to believe. Of course, we will have to await the data. No bee is an island indeed, there is too much sharing, drifting, flying about. Keith **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:23:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Cinderblock colony removal. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar & Dee, It is a much simpler operation just to funnel the bees out of the wall. You do not disturb the wall and get almost every one of the bees. On an old swarm it will take about 7-8 weeks to do the task. This way you can get the honey out also. I have several of these going in North Alabama. Removing bees from trees is very simple and you do not hurt the tree. Still takes 7-8 weeks. If any are interested, I can send pictures of this task to you off list. The queen does not exit the site unless they decide to swarm. She and a very small amount of bees will die inside the structure. Lionel **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:29:40 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: correctionRe: [BEE-L] A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems ") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Further, I don't ever recall anyone saying that the bees needed anything except enzymes to make "bee bread"," ...is a quote from jim, not my words. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 09:47:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Alarm Pheromone / Aggressive Ferals In-Reply-To: <297545600806020803i65965942nfd6272988ad072ed@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > > Are you saying it's more dangerous to be stung a > handful of times per year (as far as venom allergies go) than being stung > many, many times? So a commercial beek, who is stung all the time is less > at > risk of developing an allergy than a hobbyist, who is stung occasionally? Seems to be the case. I can't cite the sources, but here is some old information that I read. Family members of commercial beekeepers develop bee sting allergy far more often than the beekeepers themselves (1 out of 5 family members), due to infrequent stinging. Most beekeeper families develop such a member. A French study found that if you receive fewer than 25 stings per year, your chances of developing a sting allergy were about 40% in your lifetime. However, if you receive 50-200 stings per year, the chances drop to 10% If you receive over 200 stings per year, the chances of becoming allergic drop to zero! That said, I and others miss stings when we've gone without. The body seems to crave, although no one enjoys the pain. As Bob says, with enough stings, the swelling and itching reaction disappear. People often ask me if I ever wear a veil (I often do when doing production work). A sting to, e.g., my lower eyelid barely causes any swelling (but often an expletive). But I make all visitors always wear a veil. Once you build immunity to stings, it is a pleasure. You don't feel the need to wear hot, bulky gear. You have much greater dexterity, and can "read" the bees better. Plus, it appears to balance your immune system. As Bob says, we must work in all conditions, and I put on gloves without hesitation if I'm getting more than about 25 stings per day. Otherwise, no. Indeed, I recently looked for my gloves, and realized that I'd misplaced them for about two weeks, and hadn't noticed. This is while we are splitting colonies and checking nucs for queens every day all day, with a light nectar flow on. When the nectar flow ended, I looked for my gloves. Bottom line, by avoiding getting stung regularly, you are likely setting yourself up for developing an allergy. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:31:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") In-Reply-To: <001701c8c650$55d89600$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >I don't see it as difficult at all to construct a sterile > environment in which to keep a tiny colony of a hundred > bees or so and a queen. Do you see a major hurdles? > If so, what would they be? I'm with Jim on this. 5th instar bee larvae defecate, leaving the pupa with a virtually sterile gut. The surfaces of newly-moulted pupae could be sterilized (this is a fairly common lab procedure). Then they could be incubated in a sterile chamber, and given only sterile food upon emergence. My guess is that sterile bees may well thrive. However, such sterile bees would also not be challenged by pathogens, either. As Dean points out, there is plenty of data to support the notion that certain microorganisms can be quite beneficial to bees. As Ari and Pete indicate, in the balance, the benefit gained by treatment for the pathogens may outweigh any detrimental effects of killing the beneficials. As Jim points out, beneficials would likely be rapidly reincoculated (even if they were, however unlikely, completely extirpated within the colony). Work by Dr Jay Evans, however, showed that there is a clear colony-to-colony and yard-to-yard differences in colony flora. So there is apparently no single perfect microorganism profile for a colony. Perhaps the more important question is, how can we encourage beneficial flora, at the expense of pathogens? Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:02:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lesli Sagan Subject: Re: Alarm Pheromone / Aggressive Ferals In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10806040947t46fe23a4m260ed4192721e26c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 12:47 PM, randy oliver wrote: > > > As Bob says, with enough stings, the swelling and itching reaction > disappear. I'm curious in part because I've never reacted much to stings--after 10 minutes, I can't even tell where it went in, and I've never found them particularly painful, but that's been true since my first day of beekeeping--just a physiological quirk, I suppose. I've wondered if that bodes ill for future sensitivity. -- ***************************** Lesli Sagan lesli.sagan@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:13:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings In-Reply-To: <828202.64775.qm@web86204.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >And yes, I was speculating that the spraying of alarm pheromone *might* be > associated with the release of some venom. >From experience in collecting bald faced hornets, I can attest that they can fill the air with a fog of venom. Makes your eyes burn and water, and your lungs burn. Only a fool in a bee suit would remain in the area! I've heard that some yellowjacket species can do the same. I've never experienced it with honey bees. Have smelled alarm pheromone strongly, but never experienced venom in the air or squirted through the veil. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:54:59 -0400 Reply-To: david.meldrum@verizon.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "David.Meldrum" Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings In-Reply-To: <484679A9.6010406@lineone.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit For me the most complete explanation of Bee stings appeared in the Aug & Sept 2006 ABJ by Buddy Marterre, MD. The first part goes into all the chemistry while the second part talks about treatment. The biggest take aways for me were: 1. People can be roughly divided into three categories: I People who get stung, feel temporary pain which disappears after a few minutes. II People similar to category I but additionally suffer from itching and swelling for a few days after the sting. III People who suffer from systemic anaphylaxis shock. People can move from one category to another category. 2. "... this implies that half the beekeepers who have large local reactions might benefit from immediate administration of a leukotriene inhibitor (Singulair or Accolate), where as the other half would benefit from anti-histamines (Benadryl, Allegra, Claritan, Zyrtec) before or immediately after the sting" After reading the article I switched to Singulair when stung, and have not had any appreciable swelling since. Previously I was taking Benadryl with no relief. Dave Meldrum Andover, Ma. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:03:30 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- randy oliver wrote: >Perhaps the more important question is, how can we encourage beneficial flora, at the expense of pathogens? randy, i would submit that in many cases, one would find that a beneficial flora in abundance (ie, "encouraged") might well be a pathogen. certainly, in humans, certain microflora are beneficial in some locations, and pathogens in others. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:45:29 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Cinderblock colony removal. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>It is a much simpler operation just to funnel... it will take about 7-8 weeks... The queen does not exit the site... I am familiar with funneling bees out. Not getting the queen out is a main disadvantage for me (I like to collect ferals for evaluation). The multiple trips don't justify getting the bees (I have no shortage of bees). A person mentioned Joe Waggle's method of inducing swarming by heavy feeding to get the old queen. I am afraid there is so much space in the cinder block wall, it might take more than a 'ton' of sugar to get a swarm... I'll give the cinderblock colonies my best shot and may have to entomb them eventually. I was called to feral colony in the Queens borough of NYC yesterday. Much easier to get. :) The owner says the bees have been the continuosly since he got the place 5-6 years ago. He's very observant and said he's seen the bees flying from the nest on sunny winter days every year. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:12:42 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Comments: cc: Peter Edwards In-Reply-To: <05fb01c8c686$0df92c10$0200a8c0@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I said: >> I don't see it as difficult at all to construct a sterile environment >> in which to keep a tiny colony of a hundred bees or so and a queen. >> Do you see a major hurdles? If so, what would they be? Peter said: > May I ask how you would sterilise the bees - or would you allow > them to bring in all the outside "microflora and microfauna" > with them; if the latter, would this not invalidate the experiment? I'd start with a patch of sealed brood, a queen, and a few attendants to tend the queen until the brood hatches. Nothing's perfect of course, but it would be as "sterile" as the conditions under which doctors would cheerfully cut into your brain. :) It would certainly be far far less "contamination" from outside sources than your typical hive would have, but the proof would be in the samples of "bee bread" and "brood food" created by the bees. We'd be able to see far fewer microflora and microfauna, and see a very different mix of both than the usual population in a "non-sterile" hive, which would prove the point just as well. Perhaps to ensure a lack of microorganisms, we could add something to the water that would kill any trace levels of growth. Anti-bacterials are all the rage in the USA these days. We'd have to mess with it to find a level that kills bacteria but does not harm bees. Whatever level of "sterile" we choose, we should see some specific negative impact fairly quickly if microogranisms are mission-critical to the health and well-being of bee colonies. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:39:14 -0700 Reply-To: gfcg7312003@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Bees in a house, old lady needs help In-Reply-To: <004f01c8c665$7e793b90$7b6bb2b0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here's the news story of the day.  An old lady needs help.   http://www.kfvs12.com/Global/story.asp?S=8421016     Grant Jackson, MO **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:43:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: CAPABEES.CA - REDESIGNED MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This was told us by Ian Homer the Regional Bee Inspector at a County BKA meeting at Sherborne last Saturday. He didn't go into details and dates. I know he is in frequent communication with his employers, the Central Science Laboratory and so have no reason to doubt what he said. Why not ask the CSL? Selwyn Wilkins there is always very helpful and informative. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:03:41 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings In-Reply-To: <82B99FF22F9F444A8B381C2A83E5AEC401592303@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For anti-inflammatory drugs like ibuprofen, naproxen, advil, tylenol etc. Start here: British Medical JOurnal 292:378, 1986 concerning beekeepers taking nonsteroid anti-inflammatory drugs. After stopping drugs the problems ceased. D **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:11:09 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Looking for pollen In-Reply-To: <82B99FF22F9F444A8B381C2A83E5AEC40159222E@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Won't get much pollen that way for that is 1990 pricing for wholesale bulk, especially when bulk nowadays elsewhere offers closer to $5 for clean pollen without high humidity levels. D **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:14:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings Comments: To: deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dee suggested British Medical Journal 292:378, 1986 ... I repeat: Today (not two decades ago) if you Google Ibuprofen and bee = stings you will find very few obscure references to exacerbated = reactions to bee stings, and a preponderance of recommendations for = using ibuprofen to relieve the pain of bee stings. All who care to can = hang on to and embrace this little substantiated rumor are welcome to do = so. Personally I=92ve dropped it from my repertoire. I got tired of = appearing silly. Aaron Morris =96 thinking Dateline 1986: I had hair and weighed 180lbs! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:38:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit deknow >randy, i would submit that in many cases, one would find that a beneficial flora in abundance (ie, "encouraged") might well be a pathogen. Maybe, but the reverse is true. For example, Stonebrood is a fungal disease. Several fungi belonging to the genus Aspergillus are associated with the disease, the most common being, A. flavus and A. fumigatus. Apergillus fumigatis is the source of fumagillin, used to combat another gut resident: Nosema. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:42:21 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings In-Reply-To: <82B99FF22F9F444A8B381C2A83E5AEC43F69B1@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Aaron, Question: Since they have changed much with formulations over the years, even treatments beekeepers have been known to use, has the formulation of ibuprohen changed any, as I do know personally of commercial beekeepers who took it and ended up quite sick after getting stung and unable to walk even witin hours of talking it. Dee **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:13:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lesli Sagan Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings In-Reply-To: <82B99FF22F9F444A8B381C2A83E5AEC43F69B1@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Aaron Morris wrote: > Dee suggested British Medical Journal 292:378, 1986 ... That's the same article I gave a link to. Just to be clear, it isn't a study in any sense of the word. "We report two cases of sensitivity to bee stings occurring while patients were taking anti-inflammatory drugs." Two cases observed apparently started 20 years of rumor... -- ***************************** Lesli Sagan lesli.sagan@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:38:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings Comments: To: deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dee asked me if the formulation of ibuprophen has changed any. Beats = me. I've said all I care to on this topic. Aaron Morris - thinking long live the myth! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 04:37:29 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Peter said: "Several fungi belonging to the genus Aspergillus are associated with the disease, the most common being, A. flavus and A. fumigatus. Apergillus fumigatis is the source of fumagillin, used to combat another gut resident: Nosema" It is a typing error A. fumigatus / A. fumigatis, or are different species? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:51:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >"Several fungi belonging to the genus Aspergillus are associated with the >disease, the most common being, A. flavus and A. fumigatus. Apergillus >fumigatis is the source of fumagillin, used to combat another gut resident: >Nosema" It is a typing error. Aspergillus fumigatus is correct **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:11:09 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings In-Reply-To: <82B99FF22F9F444A8B381C2A83E5AEC43F69B4@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Myth or no myth, as long as the kidneys and liver have to get the toxins out and immune system suffers, medications that hurt this process are wrong, especially when things happen within 24 hours after taking, like one bee sting even that goes deep. But to not hurt your feelings more, I will now stop rantting! Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:49:47 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jim and All >> I don't see it as difficult at all to construct a sterile environment I do. Whole bees will be bursting with microbes, and in the gut of one queen you'll probably find some individuals of all the microorganisms that would be found in bee bread and pollen stores. I can't see that a cocktail of antibiotics could be designed that kills all microorganisms in the bee gut (and on the bee), leaving the bee alive and axenic (a better word than sterile which has other connotations). Taking plant tissue into axenic culture, something which I've done more times than I care to remember, is far from easy and brain surgery isn't an appropriate comparison as surgery does not require axenic conditions, just fairly clean ones. To clean the surface of plant tissue the usual approach is a quick rinse in ethanol, 10-15 mins submerged in hypochlorite solution, then half a dozen rinses in water previously sterilised in an autoclave. Even then, plant tissue from less than clean environments or tissue that has bacteria or yeasts already living internally can be close to impossible to get into axenic culture. I'd have thought that the only way to get axenic bees would be to surface sterilise eggs as noted above, and to nurture them and feed them by hand using properly sterilised bee food in an artificial environment where no microorganisms can re-infect the bee. It should be possible but it would be far from easy. all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:01:48 +0100 Reply-To: ruaryrudd@iol.ie Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: CAPABEES.CA - REDESIGNED In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris might I ask what was told to you? I know excessive quotes are not allowed but this is too brief. Ruary -----Original Message----- This was told us by Ian Homer at a County BKA meeting at Sherborne last Saturday. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 06:23:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Too late Dee, you already ranted yet again. And yes, when used in = excessive dosage, ibuprophrn DOES cause liver damage. That can be = easily verified. =20 =20 And I don't doubt there are cases, RARE cases of exacerbated reactions = to bee stings. But it simply is NOT FACT that this is routine, = verifiable and reason to shout far and wide that ibuprophen is directly = linked to exacerbated reactions to bee stings. Far more people get hit = and killed by cars while crossing the street than do people who have = ibuprophen linked exacerbated reactions to bee stings. Adamant claims = of a cause and effect relationship are simply silly. =20 Aaron Morris - thinking DO NOT CROSS STREETS, YOU'LL BE KILLED BY CARS! =20 Moderator Note: Last post on ibuprophen unless someone can offer = something concrete. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:02:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: communication between honey-bee species MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Now, for something completely diffeent > Honey bees from different continents can communicate by learning to translate the language encoded in one another's dance moves, according to new research. It's the first time communication between honey-bee species has been established and shows that bees have various cognitive skills and the ability to learn from one another. An international science team, including Australian National University researchers, discovered that a mixed hive of Asian (Apis cerana) and European (Apis mellifera) honey bees quickly overcame language differences. Bees can communicate by dancing http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/ * * * > This is the first report of the successful establishment of a mixed-species honeybee colony, with individuals of Apis cerana cerana and Apis mellifera ligustica cohabiting, foraging and carrying out normal hive functions, for the greater part harmoniously, for over 50 days. Several cross-species interactions, such as dance following, trophallaxis and queen tending were observed during this period, indicating that ours was a normally functioning hive. We believe that this is an important breakthrough in the study of honeybees, and that such mixed-species hives will open exciting new avenues of research into various aspects of this social insect's biology. > We studied details of the dance communication (dance angle, waggle duration and recruitment success) of Acc and Aml in the mixed-species hive. The dance angles were not significantly different between Acc and Aml in the mixed-species hive, which means that both dance dialects indicated the same food source direction. However, the distance-dependent waggle durations were significantly different between Acc and Aml honeybees, regardless of whether they were in a pure colony or the mixed-species colony. The dialect differences of honeybee species are therefore encoded in the difference in waggle duration. Environmental variables, such as wind velocity, temperature and the surrounding landscape can be ruled out, as all bees were made to forage along the same flight path, and all dances for a given experiment, whose waggle durations were analysed, were recorded within a short period of time. East Learns from West: Asiatic Honeybees Can Understand Dance Language of European Honeybees PLoS ONE. 2008; 3(6): e2365. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:21:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Using traditional methods to combat bee disease MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Many farmers remembered the first TBSV (Thai Sac Brood Virus) epidemic, struck Jumla around 1983-1984 but may have started as early as 1978, and some claimed that the recent epidemic [1996-97] was equally as devastating. The main symptoms of brood disease observed by farmers were: slowed activity at the hive entrance; larvae (likened to cooked rice grains) being carried out of the hive; the bees becoming black and more defensive (due to few young bees surviving); sour or bad smells coming from the hive; and inactive bees clinging to each other inside hives. Perceptions as to the cause of the disease varied. Some farmers blamed infection on 'pollution' of hives from the touch of menstruating women or 'untouchable' (occupational caste) people! Others associated it with the introduction of apples and peaches into the district by the District Agricultural Development Office. This may be because the first TSBV epidemic coincided with the introduction of apples but it may also be associated with the introduction of pesticide usage that accompanied agricultural developments. Others directly blamed insecticides. Information gathered suggested that indigenous hive baiting practices might also be responsible for rapid spread of brood diseases in traditional hives. Combs from absconded or dead colonies traditionally are kept aside for production of hive bait locally known as "ghosard". This is made from old combs beaten together in a pestle and mortar with honey and certain scented herbs. Combs with dried scales of dead larvae infected with TSBV and EFB become mixed into this mixture and probably inoculate the disease organism into baited hives. Extension workers tried to persuade farmers to dry-fry the combs thoroughly before they mixed them into 'ghosard' and to use combs from non-infected colonies in preference to combs from dead or absconded colonies. By providing training in beeswax processing to make candles and medicinal skin creams, and by buying beeswax from farmers for a processing and value addition enterprise in Jumla bazaar, combs from infected colonies were put to use and removed as a source of re-infection. Though farmers sold wax and used it to make creams and candles after receiving training, few accepted the practice of scorching inside their hives or of changing their method of making 'ghosard'. Some farmers claimed that scorching their hives in the spring of 1998 caused a lack of swarms to be captured later in the season. They said that the comb imprints from previous years attract swarms and that if these are removed by scorching the smell of the hive becomes unattractive to bees. It was impossible to tell whether the low levels of occupation by swarms in 1998 was due to the scorching practice or the decline in populations of wild bees as a result of the 1997 disease epidemic. Indigenous treatment of bee disease mainly involved smoking diseased colonies with Juniperus indica but various others herbs and organic material were also listed as smoking material by some farmers. These included: fish eggs, Jurinea dolonmiaea ('Bhut khes'), wild sheep horn, roots of a forest spinach known as 'ruga sag', Verbascum thapsus ('Gune Pucchar'), rice husks; Saussurea gossypiphora ('nau mukhi bhut khes'), lichens or fungi locally known as 'dinkine cheau' and 'chuna jurro', a species locally called 'Gokhal dhoop', and Juniperus indica ('dhoopy'); Swertia chirata (Pate Tito) / Swertia racemosa (Danthe Tito); Chillies; Aconite spp. (beek); 'Chuna mullo' probably another Aconite sp; Tobacco. The latter 4 smokes probably have a 'knock-out' effect on bees and their parasites. Feeding of bees with buckwheat and honey 'candy' in winter, applying a concentrate of a red turnip locally known as 'koira' around the mouths of hives, feeding very old honey and concentrates of peaches or forest fruits of Pyrus pashia, and infusion of pine needles (Pinus wallichiana) in sugar syrup, were said to be medicinal to bees. Sprinkling cow urine onto hives with special herbs is said to cure pollution from menstruating women! -- Battling with bee brood disease in Apis cerana in W. Nepal - Some findings by Naomi M. Saville http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/saville/brood_disease.htm **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:39:25 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good references, Dean. >>Bees moisten pollen with regurgitated nectar or honey to facilitate packeing inot he corbiculae, add glandular secretions, and inoculate it with microbes." That was a question in my mind. I started pollen trapping last season for personal use. I mixed it 1:1 with raw honey, mixed it thoroughly several times over the course of a week, and stored it in sealed jars in the refrigerator. The pollen pollen dispersed and the mixture turned into a nice paste. It tastes just like the beebread I tried from comb cells. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:45:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings In-Reply-To: <82B99FF22F9F444A8B381C2A83E5AEC43F69B5@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There have been some recent studies on allergies that seem to link nitrous oxide, NO, to the bodies reaction to allergenic substances. All the science about NO and its effect in human health is still in its infancy. The fact that we do produce NO in our bodies through different mechanisms and the kind of food we eat, might explain the reason we can have different reactions to stings at different times. As far as NSAIDs, which seem to be at issue, they cause stomach distress and the solution has been to reformulate them as NO-SAIDs, in essence NO has been added to them to decrease gastric irritation. So there is a link between NSAIDs and NO levels. Couple that with the link between NO and allergic reactions and there is a plausible, albeit tenuous without a study, relationship between someone taking ibuprofen and allergic reactions to bee stings. Also note that not all NSAIDs are the same. Ibuprofen has been shown to have more problems than others, especially cardiac issues. So you can be quite fine and take NSAIDs for bee stings with no problem at all if your NO levels are "proper" but have a reaction if they are not. Since most people seem to fit in the first category and only a few in the second category (only 40 people per year die of allergic reactions to insect stings in the US), then you are probably fine with NSAIDs, or maybe not. It is a possible risk and impossible to assess, because of the current state of research. Just as an aside, I asked, several years apart, two doctor's to speak to our BK group about allergies and bee stings. It was interesting how divergent their views were. Allergic medicine is not a settled science, as is obvious from the posts on the subject. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:49:42 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Alarm Pheromone / Aggressive Ferals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Family members of commercial beekeepers develop bee sting allergy far more often than the beekeepers themselves (1 out of 5 family members), due to infrequent stinging. ABJ ran an article on this. It seems the beekpeeping clothes (suit, veil) laden with bee venom, when brought into the house, causes this sensitivity in the beekeeper's family members through inhalation. The article recommended frequent washing of bees suites and not hanging them in the house unless washed first. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:25:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: Pollen Hoarding Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I found?Amdam's work on pollen hoarding strains of bees and their foraging activities, development,?etc.?in the most recent ABJ of interest.?The selection toward the nectar gathering lines of bees may be contributing to the differences we are seeing now vs 30-40 years ago when there were still plenty of wild bees to contribute pollen hoarding genetics into mix.? I note my feral bees?now produce honey that is quite different than that produced by my commercial bees in past years.? Some of them tend to pack pollen up into the honey supers as well. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:16:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim Fischer said: “Whatever level of "sterile" we choose, we should see some specific negative impact fairly quickly if microorganisms are mission-critical to the health and well-being of bee colonies.” OK so it would not be impossible. Would you think it necessary to follow said colony through at least one complete generation starting with your original brood and having them age completely to the field bee stage while raising new brood which the queen has laid? I am hypothesizing (speculating) that a truly symbiotic microorganism might depend on behavioral factors involved in brood rearing, or even egg laying, in order to serve its intended purpose. Perhaps the exchange of fluids between field bees and house bees might serve as a critical link. So then if the capped brood that you started with did not die before reaching field bee stage, it would not prove that microorganisms were not needed. They might play a critical role at a later stage in the cycle. It could also be that a prolonged absence of such beneficial organisms might gradually wear a colony down requiring more than one generation to finally do it in. The complexities of such relationships can be mind boggling. Never mind trying to figure out which of the thousands of micro organisms or combinations of them is actually vital or beneficial. For that you would have to be able to eliminate them one by one or eliminate all but one at a time. Other than the missing microorganisms, I’m trying to think of any other factor, the absence or presence of which could result in the death of such a very small colony in such an environment; a colony that certainly wouldn’t be expected to survive under normal field conditions. I can’t think of any. Can you? Then in the absence of any other factor, unforseen or otherwise, if the colony died right away you could say with a high degree of confidence that it was the lack of some beneficial microorganism that did them in. My whole point, I guess, is that proving that microorganisms are not beneficial or vital to the well being of honey bees would be at least as difficult as proving that they are. In any case it hasn’t apparently been done. There is an abundance of such relationships in nature, though, so assuming that one or more of them exists in honeybees is certainly not far fetched. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:51:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Southern Subject: Re: Ibuprofen and Bee Stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/5/08 6:23 AM, Aaron Morris at AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU wrote: > Aaron Morris - thinking DO NOT CROSS STREETS, YOU'LL BE KILLED BY CARS! Somewhat of a self-defeating analogy. Compare with DO NOT ROLL OVER IN BED, YOU'LL SUFFOCATE. Much better. There is a safety in bed that we can greatly rely on, in which we will stay alive unless some act of foolishness or negligence takes place outside of normal use. Streets and cars OTOH, represent an inherently dangerous place in which *unless* we take care each and every time, we are more than likely to get injured. There is nothing safe about that environment and despite the pedestrian's so-called right of way, we should take nothing for granted. Also comparing the car hit stat with ibu/sting stat is as silly as the donkey/airplane stat. Ibuprofen causes liver damage in any kind of dose. The diffeence between small does/large dose is the livers ability to deal with and repair the damage. When bee sting venom is also compromising the liver/immune system, the potential for further compromise is exponentially increased if ibuprofen is taken. That is measurable; it is not whether damage is caused but how great is the hosts ability to repair itself. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:53:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Warner Subject: black widow spiders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hives attract various "pests" and other fauna. The first year we had bees, we would see random roaches, beetles, ants and whatnot within and around the hives. No big deal. They were just there and not really a nuisance. We also had mites, but... everyone has mites. The second year, wax moths found us. Wax moths are very annoying and require more management. But, in the end, you can't rid yourself of them. You just learn to live with them. We also saw our first small hive beetle that year. I will take the SHB over the wax moth any day, frankly. They have not been a problem (yet). So... status quo for awhile and we are fine. This year: black widow spiders. What's up with black widow spiders? I never read anything about widow spiders being particularly attracted to beehives. But they are. I saw them on the hives of a larger commercial guy recently... and now they have firmly established themselves on our hives. They are harmless to the bees (as a whole), but holy cow they unnerve me a bit. I am no longer just grabbing hive tops without looking (that's how I found my first one). They are a gorgeous spider, but pretty harmful to us humans. And now I see them regularly on my hives (usually right under the lip of a hive top. Are other beeks seeing this same behavior with the widow spiders? Or is this something unique to my region? (I'm in North Carolina) Regardless, this is fair warning to folks to be careful when they grab equipment. A black widow spider bite is no joke. -todd -- The Carolina Bee Company http://www.carolinabees.com/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:46:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: Pollen Hoarding Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I note my feral bees?now produce honey that is quite different than that produced by my commercial bees in past years.? Please say more about how the honey is different. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:17:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: black widow spiders In-Reply-To: <50480f2d0806050653r19b21bb7we942eeb9f7d0b50e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 9:53 AM, Todd Warner wrote: > Regardless, this is fair warning to folks to be careful when they grab equipment. A black widow spider bite is no joke. Living in San Diego I got used to seeing multiple black widow nests under hives. (Don't put an ungloved hand down there). And an occasional rattlesnake. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:14:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Simms Subject: Re: black widow spiders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "What's up with black widow spiders?=A0... They are a gorgeous spider, but = pretty harmful to us=0Ahumans. And now I see them regularly on my hives (us= ually right under=0Athe lip of a hive top.)"=0A=0AWord to the wise and all = beekeepers in general:=A0 wear gloves.=A0 I got tired of getting stung by w= asps and hornets hanging out on bee equipment.=A0 Everything that bites and= stings is attracted to bees, beehives and equipment.=A0 Gloves don't have = to take away dexterity, pick the right glove for the job.=A0 That can inclu= de the tight fitting=A0thin blue nitrile rubber=A0gloves like EMTs wear - t= hey will protect you from bites, stings, chemicals, propolis, etc.=A0 Wear = your leather gloves where you can get punctures, cuts, etc.=A0 If you don't= wear your Personal Protective Equipment (PPE), you have made a conscious d= ecision to accept personal harm from all known sources and some unanticipat= ed sources.=A0 G'Luck.=A0 But you need more than luck: you need=A0PPE!=A0 = =A0 >8 )=0AEric the Chemical Engineer from Howe, TX=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:42:44 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Looking for pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Three dollars per pound? If you can't sell your fresh-frozen cleaned pollen for at least $1.00 per OUNCE packaged in nothing more than zip-lock bags with a label, you need to walk into a health food store, buy a bottle of whatever cardboard-tasting crud they are selling, and challenge the manager or owner to a taste test on the spot. If you can't stomach this level of marketing, or are allergic to Patchouli-oil perfume, Birkenstock sandals, or tie-died clothing, please contact me, and I be happy to buy all you can provide at a very fair price. Pollen, if handled as a perishable food product from the hive to the mouth of the consumer (and this means freezers at every step in the process), is a magical thing, like eating flowers. Nothing else comes close, and bottles of pollen sitting on a shelf at room temperature are certain to taste terrible and have "reduced health advantages" by comparison to fresh. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:55:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: communication between honey-bee species Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A month or so ago I posted this URL I ran across: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/25/science/25obwagg.html Could any of that be related to the issue of different species being able to decipher each other’s languages? Regards, Dick Allen **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:20:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lesli Sagan Subject: Re: black widow spiders In-Reply-To: <50480f2d0806050653r19b21bb7we942eeb9f7d0b50e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 9:53 AM, Todd Warner wrote: > > Are other beeks seeing this same behavior with the widow spiders? Or > is this something unique to my region? (I'm in North Carolina) > Regardless, this is fair warning to folks to be careful when they grab equipment. A black widow spider bite is no joke. > I haven't seen black widows (I'm in NY; I've read that we have them, but I've never seen one), but I did go from seeing no spiders to lots of spiders on the inner cover when I moved my hives from a sunny spot to a more shaded spot; the other difference was that the first spot had no grass (I put down a barrier and chips) and the second was in a grassy area. I don't know whether either of those two factors played a role (not knowing much about spider habits), but they are two variables to consider. ***************************** Lesli Sagan lesli.sagan@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:24:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Alarm Pheromone / Aggressive Ferals In-Reply-To: <20080605.084942.10189.1@webmail18.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The article recommended frequent washing of bees suites and not hanging them in the house unless washed first. Actually, the best practice is never to bring them into the house at all, until ready to wash, and then I do the washing separate from any other clothes. Then I hang them in the bee house. Another is to take a shower after working bees and wash your clothes if you are not using a suit. It is the detritus on your clothes and suit that, in small quantities, eventually cause your family to develop sensitivity to bee stings. It is not the stinging - it is the lack of stinging but still being exposed to venom and everything else you bring into the house from working bees. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:39:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Africanized bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a college intern from Brazil working for us this summer. She worked with a 1500 colony operation in northern Brazil. She has shared that they do not drive vehicles near hives and must leave hives with several meters of space between to cut down on aggressive behavior spreading to adjacent hives while working a nearby hive. She said everyone wears full protection and that our bees up here are girl scouts compared to the AHB down there. They don't raise queens as they swarm and raise their own periodically and catch numerous swarms to rebuild their colony count. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:23:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: black widow spiders In-Reply-To: <50480f2d0806050653r19b21bb7we942eeb9f7d0b50e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >Are other beeks seeing this same behavior with the widow spiders? They are extremely common in stored bee boxes, etc in the Calif foothills. We often see a dozen a day. We learn to recognize the feel of their extremely strong webs when we are barehanded. Luckily, they are nonagressive, and generally run from your hand. Their fangs are short, and can't penetrate gloves. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:42:27 -0700 Reply-To: k.kellison@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Kellison Subject: Black widow spiders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Yes, Todd out here in California those big girls love to propagate under the hive bottoms and lids.. with the abundance of food source always handy easy to see why I have been lucky,, if you don't wear gloves you will know you're close because her web is exceptionally "sticky"! So watch out.. I usually take a moment to release them a hundred yards away or so in exchange for sparing me... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:52:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: black widow spiders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In eastern Montana, I've found pallets of bees with black widows between the hives and a rattlesnake under the same pallet. Adds a bit of excitement to the day. Reason I always wear tall boots. Come shedding time, and the snakes under the pallet for a bit of shade DON'T rattle. One never kneels beside those pallets. Jerry **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:52:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: A Working Business Model - The Key to Breeding a Better Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >… I am a realist and successful business man. I make a >living from bees. Each hive is a production unit. Just keeping the hive >around all season costs money. Commercial beekeepers often put forth the above reason for not going forward with efforts to breed a bee that is not dependant on treatments to survive. It seems on the surface to be a perfectly reasonable excuse. But NOT when you consider what the essentials are when running a ’business’ or company. In 'successful business', it is required that funds be allocated towards research and development to keep up with the competition. In the business of commercial beekeeping, we perhaps need to start thinking of ’diseases of the honeybee’ as a fierce competitor. And need to develop working business plans to insure the integrity of the industry as a whole. IMO, the failure of some commercial beekeepers to develop a resistant bee can be attributed to a ‘failure to develop a working business model‘. The keeping of colonies for breeding varroa resistance should NOT be coming from ‘out of pocket’. But being essential part of keeping up with the competition, the 3 to 5% or so of the gross should be earmarked to research and development, and considered an <> and therefore not coming out of ones 'pocket money'. A working business model has been proven key to success throughout history: After WWII, when America was rebuilding Japans industry. A Corporate Executive from the USA went to Japan and taught some of the Cooperate Executives there to set strict guidelines for how capital gets distributed within the company. He put forth his business plan that set percentages determining the amount of funds going towards research and development, retooling, maintenance etc. Business in Japan embraced this new philosophy to the point of the USA Corporate Executive becoming famous icon in Japan, while he remains less known here in the USA. The name escapes me, maybe someone can provide it, perhaps he worked with Motorola, and perhaps was featured on a TV news magazine not long ago. Many businesses in Japan have followed the model, and are now a formidable competitive force as a result. So one might suggest, that the key to breeding a better bee is to FIRST develop a working business model, that will insure we keep up with the competitors. So IMO, the excuse that it would ‘cost a commercial beekeeper money to breed a bee not dependant on treatments’ is perhaps more suggestive of a failed business model than it is affordability. Best Wishes, Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:18:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: black widow spiders In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10806050923w1c81590au199e5b5b3cf9e55a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We often see a dozen a day. We see black widows in Missouri but they are not aggressive like the brown recluse. In my opinion the brown recluse is a bigger problem. The brown recluse feeds rarely and will bite anytime the spider thinks food is around. I have killed brown recluse the size of a half dollar. Fast and aggressive. I have been bit by Brown recluse as has most of the commercial beeks in the area. We started putting on supers a couple weeks ago which made room in fumigated storage. I move all old equipment from the building either out in direct sunlight (which cause the recluse to vacate the premises) or place on the container to kill all stages. With the whole operation on pallets it only takes a short time to set everything out and clean the area. really helps with recluse. I also never kill a wolf spider as they hunt and kill/eat brown recluse. In winter when equipment is moved into a heated area the recluse wakes up but is slow and clumsy and easy to kill. Not so this time of year! The violin marking is no longer considered the ID mark. Many recluse do not carry there violin but are recluse . (source pest control outfit). bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:08:15 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: communication between honey-bee species MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/06/2008 14:27:08 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: An international science team, including Australian National University researchers, discovered that a mixed hive of Asian (Apis cerana) and European (Apis mellifera) honey bees quickly overcame language differences. Somebody's got to ask and it may as well be me - was there any way that exchange of taste or scent could be part of the interaction? Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:08:15 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: Pollen Hoarding Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/5/2008 2:22:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bee-l@DEBRUYNKOPS.COM writes: >Please say more about how the honey is different. 1) I have observed my hives that come from feral sources tend to store more pollen in the honey supers, sometimes filling several frames with pollenized honey that extracts almost completely. I also note more pollen cells in the 5th and higher supers if the flow or the colony is a good enough producer to warrant them. 2) I have observed my feral colonies will tend to produce the occasional super of honey (not every year) in a time frame outside the main flows that my commercial stock never did. Most of the 80-90 members in our club run commercial queen stock and I don't hear of them getting any of these type flows....but could be a management issue perhaps. Therefore, I tend to agree with the comments about the pollen hoarding bees bringing back nectar that the nectar hoarding lines don't seem to work. 3) The honey tends more toward a more amber color than I have produced in the past, mainly I believe because they will work some of the tulip poplar tree flow, more variety of blooms, and they put more pollen in the honey frames. 4) However, I just extracted some of this years crop and had about 6 supers of extremely light honey that was not identifiable to local beekeepers. Would be even lighter if they had not put a few pollen cells in the comb. One beekeeper is a certified Welsh honey judge and another has shown honey and kept bees for approximately 50+ years. I plan to send a sample out for pollen identification next week. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:50:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Alarm Pheromone / Aggressive Ferals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> As Bob says, with enough stings, the swelling and itching reaction >> disappear. I don't get any itching and swelling anymore. Two nights ago, I was thinking about the oddities of a defensive nuc in my yard while sleeping. So I stopped by the yard on my way down the driveway that morning to run a 'test' on the nuc. I tapped 3 times on the hive stand, no reaction from the other nucs, but on the 3 rd tap, about 24 bees zipped out of the defensive nuc and went around to my truck tail light that was the nearest dark object to that particular nuc. I was quite amused by how they attacked the tail light, and didn’t even notice me standing 4 feet away! Just as I was thinking "they don't even noticing me" that’s when they noticed me. Well,,, as I was picking out stings on my way to work, I counted 11 stings from my face and arms. The only one that caused any hurt was a bee that got me on the ear, felt like my ear was on fire, it was weird, must have hit a major blood vessel. Anyhow, the test was a success! Next test, I want to place a few fresh stings near the entrance to see if alarm pheromone sets them off. I’m considering wearing a set of ear muffs for that test. ;) Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:54:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: A Working Business Model - The Key to Breeding a Better Bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >So IMO, the excuse that it would =E2=80=98cost a commercial beekeeper mon= ey to=20 breed a bee not dependant on >treatments=E2=80=99 is perhaps more suggestive= of a failed=20 business model than it is affordability. I don't have much confidence you will see this happen until the current=20 system totally fails and the large commercial pollinators/honey producers t= hat=20 truck their bees all over go out of business. The importation of the lates= t=20 bee disease/pest from elsewhere in the world into stressed out colonies mov= ed=20 for pollination or honey production is causing huge commercial hive loss an= d=20 also manages to export the newest disease into local bee stocks at the same= =20 time. These guys are losing millions of dollars of hives(probably exceeds=20= $50=20 million easily), but I don't expect much of anything will be done on a=20 federal/state level until they are willing to submit to and demand some rea= sonable=20 regulation regarding hive movement, disease inspections, etc. =20 **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with=20 Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. =20 (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=3D4?&NCID=3Daolfod00030000000002) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:05:46 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: Surprises was "black widow spiders" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in Hawaii we get scorpions and centipedes under the top lid. Watched a drama unfold once when I pulled the lid off, the centipede dived like a sea monster between the frames, came back up with above 5 girls trying to find the weak spots. Like being in a NatGeo environment. Centipedes I've seen approach 10 inches, hear it's a nasty bite. Howard in Hawaii **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:32:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: A Working Business Model - The Key to Breeding a Better Bee In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob said: > >… I am a realist and successful business man. I make a >>living from bees. Each hive is a production unit. Just keeping the hive >>around all season costs money. Keeping a bunch of "dinks' around does not help the bottom line. Most times it is cheaper and easier to simply treat for a problem than kill a 100 hives trying to find a hive which say resists varroa. In fact we were asked to send our survivor queens to Baton Rouge years ago for Dr. Harbo to find a varroa tolerant bee. His research failed as far as finding a varroa tolerant bee from *those* queens. Dr. Harbo then began to look deeper into why some hives handle varroa while others do not and came up with valid reasons why certain bees survive which made sense. Hense SMR & VSH. Others are still using the method the Baton Rouge bee lab found unsuccessful. Of course now you can buy Russian Commercial beekeepers often put forth the above reason for not going > forward with efforts to breed a bee that is not dependant on treatments to > survive. Do you understand what you are saying? Most commercial beeks are not queen breeders. A queen breeder searchers for bees not dependent on treatments. In other words you have to stop all treatments which is not wise. Wise is to monitor your bees health and use IPM treatments to control the problem if needed. There are only a handful of queen breeders in the U.S. but many queen producers. Some queen producers claim they are queen breeders but those of us close to those beeks know different. See an egg and in the cage the queen goes. Light colored Italian and dark colored carniolan! > In 'successful business', it is required that funds be allocated towards > research and development to keep up with the competition. Most of the competition has went bankrupt. Many in the early 90's using the "live and let die" method trying to find a bee to survive varroa. I leave the research and developement to those which will get a paycheck regardless of the bottom line. Marla Spivak with grants and the Baton Rouge bee lab. The search form the varroa tolerant bee does not pay very good . We all know the Russian bee has many good traits yet queen producers do not embrace. When asked they simply reply. Why should we as we can sell every queen we produce now without the hassle. In the business > of commercial beekeeping, we perhaps need to start thinking of ’diseases > of the honeybee’ as a fierce competitor. I think you underestimate todays commercial beek. In fact I usually only have this type of conversation with another beekeeper which makes a living from bees. I don't think Donald Trump could make it in the bee business. Most bee operations run on limited capital. A couple stupid moves and you are out of business. > A working business model has been proven key to success throughout > history: My banker would not make it in the bee business. keeping control of the bottom line is the key. Making the tough decisions is the key. And above all not doing what the others are doing is also key (or has been for me). Being able to change direction overnight is key today. Sticking to the same old ideas will cost you in the end. if your bees are starving you simply move to greener pastures. if your pollination contracts are lost you find new. Commercial beekeeping is always changing. So IMO, the excuse that it would ‘cost a commercial beekeeper money to > breed a bee not dependant on treatments’ is perhaps more suggestive of a > failed business model than it is affordability. I am still waiting for the worlds queen breeders to come up with a bee not dependant on treatments of any kind. Are you suggesting I would have done better? I have used over 400 Russian queens, hygienic bees, Marla Spivak queens, SMR queens, VSH bees, Purvis queens and others. Most my fellow beeks have done the same. I think purchasing these genetics is easier and better than relying of feral swarms (of unknown origin.) You have got to walk a mile in a commercial beeks shoes before you judge. Despite a working business model you can't be spending a higher amount of money than you are taking in! With the rising cost of fuel I have been making changes. Not simply business as usual. A businessman has to adjust quickly when things effect the bottom line. Dropping the far yards. making less trips and doing all work when at the yard. No unnecessary trips. Extra bee equipment on trucks. All trucks got a tune-up! In some cases increase of hives in yards. One important change fuel costs have brought on I should have went to years ago. Checking for floral sources and new yards on my motorcycle. 40 MPG motorcycle as compared to 9mpg on a ton and a a half truck. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 07:33:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Pollen Hoarding Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry Wallace wrote: >2) I have observed my feral colonies will tend to produce the occasional super of honey (not every year) in a time frame outside the main flows that my commercial stock never did. How do you differentiate between "commercial" and "feral"? Aren't ferals mostly escaped commercial stock? Why would they be different? pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 07:40:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: A Working Business Model - The Key to Breeding a Better Bee In-Reply-To: <825B77FD2692474EA297D6CB3E04F32D@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love these discussions since they usually are hobby beekeepers giving commercial beekeepers advice on how to conduct their business. Couple of truths. If they followed the hobby model, they would go broke. I see new hobby beekeepers post here every year and I see many who once kept bees, no longer here. Yet, while they were here they had truth and justice on their side. You can read about commercial operations failing, because they are businesses. Hobby beekeepers go away not "with a bang but a whimper". If breeding really works so well, where are the queens? The problem with breeding for specific traits is that other traits, just as important, can be lost. (BTDT) So if we want Varroa control, we already have a bee, which is AHB, as demonstrated by some of our SW US friends. But they bring along a load of other traits that do not fit the commercial pollinators blueprint. Plus, several of those commercial beekeepers who were managing AHB and touted as doing so successfully, no longer are. (Note that almost all of AHB management is in fixed locations and for honey, not pollination, so context is critical, but seldom brought up.) Lots of the anecdotal findings on no-pesticide beekeeping posted here are just that. They lack any good science and especially lack controls. Plus, they extrapolate findings well beyond any reasonable limit. You do not have to look far for examples. But from those wild assumptions comes advice on how to run a 1,000 order of magnitude bigger business. I have both a science and business educational background. It was interesting to listen, in both arenas, to those who had practical experience compared to those whose only background was academic. You could follow the advice of most who had experience, since it matched your observations in the world, but only a handful of those who eternally lived behind the cloistered walls were worth the bother. Final truth. Were it not for the commercial side of beekeeping, there would not be any major science and research dedicated to beekeeping. They are the driving force behind finding solutions. We hobby snipers should be thankful for their existence as well as their unbelievable persistence in the face of tremendous obstacles. I couldn't do it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:04:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roni Subject: Comparing Queen breeds? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, You said "I have used over 400 Russian queens, hygienic bees, Marla Spivak queens, SMR queens, VSH bees, Purvis queens and others." I was wondering if you could compare them for me and tell me what you liked and disliked about the different breeds? Anyone else with experience using these different breeds, I would love to hear your insight. I am hoping to split a colony in a little while and will need to order a new queen for it. I would like some advice as to which queen to order. I live in hot and humid central GA. Roni **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:19:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: communication between honey-bee species In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>>>In a message dated 05/06/2008 14:27:08 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: >>>>An international science team, including Australian National University researchers, discovered that a mixed hive of Asian (Apis cerana) and European (Apis mellifera) honey bees quickly overcame language differences.<<<<<<<< Something about this troubles me. My reading tells me that Apis Ceranae predate on EHBs and AHBs and eventually take over the hive by out producing Ceranae eggs. The eventual output of the situation is "no more Mellifera." There is a transition stage. I can't believe that the mentioned researchers do not know this, so something else must be going on. I guess they never actually said that the mix was viable. Straighten me out someone. Dick Marron **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 05:25:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Differing between commercial and feral colonies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote:How do you differentiate between "commercial" and "feral"? Aren't ferals mostly escaped commercial stock? Why would they be different? pb Peter, I am not too knowledgeable in this area, but think the loacation souce of the swarm would be an indicator. Swarms collected aournd habitable areas would probably be of commercial origin, though not necessarily so. But, swarms collected from areas of sparse human population could probably be considerd truely feral. Just my 6 cents worth. Mike in LA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:31:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: A Working Business Model - The Key to Breeding a Better Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There is no way one bee business can do significant R&D on all aspects of the operation. So we focus our R&D on one or two areas and rely on the industry around us to do R&D in other areas and then we buy their products and services. My primary R&D area has been equipment innovation, and yet there are many equipment areas (e.g., foundation) where I rely in the industry. Joe Waggle and others invest in genetics. I expect that a close look at major migratory operations would reveal high levels of innovation and R&D commitment in areas the owner bets are most critical. If the bets are sound, they get to stay in business. Over the past few years I've begun to invest R&D in queen rearing and stock selection. The goals are peculiar to my management practices and do not include development of a mite-proof bee that can survive without help. Time will tell if my bets are sound. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:57:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: A Working Business Model - The Key to Breeding a Better Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings, Bob et al. Recently there were two major posts explaining how commercial beekeepers must maintain the status quo because they must pay their employees, among others, so that their children too can go to school, etc. Given such “cut- throat” business environment, as Bob agrees to disagree, one must do anything and everything to keep his/her business afloat, including such unproven measures as shop-towel methods, perhaps, out of desperation. Hence the constant blame against the scientists for being so slow in developing a quick shot in the arm so that they can go on business as usual, and hence the rationale as to how the bee-researchers are always years behind the practical commercial beekeepers, as if the researchers were intellectually challenged blooming baboons. Not so. We are talking about short-term and long-term gains here. Micro-vision beekeeping celebrates instant gratification, here and right now, profit or sink, for I have mouths to feed, whereas the proponents of sustainable beekeeping are pointing out the long term survivability of bees and beekeeping beyond our generation and beyond our great grand children’s generation, not a myopic vision, but a macro-vision from a holistic point of view. Frankly people get laid off by the thousands due to this near-sightedness in any industry. GM and Ford had laid off a few hundred thousands because they have failed to envision the long-term sustainability of their business model: when people from other countries (Europe and Asia, for instance) were focusing on fuel-economy, they kept producing gas-guzzlers for a short-term gain, not realizing that the finite limit of the available fossil fuel and its potential price-hike that had happened once before, a CCD in auto industry they decided to ignore for immediate gain. GM and Ford, among others, are sinking because they were myopic in relying on SUV’s and F-150 pickups, respectively. Yes, I too have seen Hummer 2 caught in rush-hour traffic doing 5 miles per hour, which made me think, “Going off-roading somewhere, Buddy?” Ford has been proud for its hybrid SUV, arguing it is the first hybrid SUV in America when in fact Toyota Prius, though not an SUV, has been around far longer than its green frog. Frankly we are behind in innovative and long-term thinking in many areas, often blind-sighted by capitalism. Invariably, our so-called innovation is a market-dressing, a gimmick for suckers. What happened to American ingenuity? We lag behind because of our greed. Even if one has developed mite-resistant strain of queens, what makes you think that I would be selling them, knowing fully well they would be put right back into the same-old practice of commercial bee-having? All the papers indicate that mite-resistance takes time, at least a decade or so via natural selection. Even if one finds a mite-fighting or mite- resisting strain, the queens, having just barely survived the ordeal of vigorous selection, will not be so perfect that if one buys these queens, one will be off the chemicals overnight. Nothing is so black and white in real world. This is a pain-in-the-ass, gradual process, a gray area common in nature, demanding a long-term, delayed gratification, and patience. Thankfully, however, given bees quick regeneration, such strain is bound to come sooner than we might think, especially in the advent of AHB’s. In fact, such strains might be here right now, unawares. But how can you put these strains right back into the old practice and EXPECT a different result? Yoon, a sideliner with fewer than 100 and going for longer than twenty years **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:06:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: A Working Business Model - The Key to Breeding a Better Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit IMO a leading factor that contributes to mite problems with migratory beekeepers is the fact if they are doing almonds and brooding up their bees in winter they never get much of a break in the brood rearing and consequently have large mites loads in spring. Russian bees have survived for over 150 yrs with varroa mite - but they also had a long break in brood rearing in their native lands. Mite resistant genetics work for many northern beekeepers, not just hobbyists but within a limited set of circumstances. Its not rocket science to get ahead of the mite problem by using resistant genetics, giving the bees a break in brood rearing and only using soft treatments in fall or no treatments at all. The silver bullet will never be found IMO and over doping of bees will probably continue. We have solutions but they are not the solutions that fit with the unrealistic parameters of sending bees to almonds from afar. Massive losses by out of state beekeepers is part of the cost of doing almonds from afar. Meanwhile the industry has succesfully externalized the issue by hiding under the mystery of CCD and Imid. Between the pressure to do almonds and the contamination of brood comb you can find sustainable answers to the honeybee problems. But again not the answer some folks want to hear. Like all of nature, honeybees have limitations. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:34:51 -0700 Reply-To: k.kellison@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Kellison Subject: AB 771, the next chapter begins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII All, The Coexistence Working Group tasked with reaching a compromise regarding seedless Mandarin plantings had its last meeting with no results. The largest producers of seedless Mandarin are unwilling to make any changes in either management of existing plantings or intentions of planting anywhere they choose. It would cost the growers appox. $1500 an acre to net their trees with a shelf life of 3 years on the nets. The growers could still offer their fruit at competitive prices. If exclusion zoning goes into effect, beekeepers and all bees, could be blocked from the entire citrus belt of California. Because the governor signed AB 771 the matter will now go to the desk of the state Ag. Sec. Kawamura to develop regulations by February 2009. This is an incredibly dangerous slippery slope for our industry, all the industry community, not just California State Beekeepers! Kathy **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:50:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Comparing Queen breeds? In-Reply-To: <00ab01c8c7cd$6bf1a200$01fea8c0@YOUR75B8ED0EE6> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Roni & All, I was wondering if > you could compare them for me and tell me what you liked and disliked > about the different breeds? I will comment on races but not on stock of certain queen breeders. Mainly because their stock changes from year to year. Mainly due to the use of different breeder queens. I think the things written about Italians , carniolans and Russians are very accurate and should help make a decision. Check the Hive & Honey Bee or ABC XYZ of beekeeping. *All* (including Italians) have got their drawbacks in my opinion but I prefer the Italians (which are the most popular bee around the world I have been told). Others prefer the carniolan (of which the new world carniolan is a big improvement in my opinion although in some years I have been disappointed but thrilled in other years). I have quite a few NWC from 2007 in yards. I like the white comb they use for comb honey. A bit more swarmy and last years queens produced less honey than the Italians. with the Italians start cranking out bees it takes beekeeper management to keep the bees from swarming. Many times takes beekeeper management to shut down brooding in late fall. They are also in my opinion susceptible to tracheal mites in the lines I use. I still keep several releases of Russians and have received and installed some of this years release. I think the breeder said the yellow/white line (whatever that means). Too early to tell about those as most the bees are from the split. However the queens I looked at had good patterns and had been busy. One hive had the tell tale single queen cell with a good queen. I never remove their single queen cell. I never saw another race keep such a cell but insures that the hive survives if the queen dies. Most Russian single queen cells occur in the supercedure position but I am no expert on the Russian bee like some on BEE-L. I like the Russian bee( or I would not keep buying!) but they have got things I like and things I do not like but all beekeeping is local . The Russian queen breeder I received my Russian/Russian queens from says he has used no treatments for nine years but we both agree about the points which do not fit into my operation. All the Russian queen breeders I have dealt with have been very honest about their bee. In my operation the best bee is a bee which does not shut down egg laying with cool weather in spring. Both the Russian & carniolans do. The Italians do not. You notice these things when you keep different races in different areas and yards. I need all hives up to maximum number of bees right now. Not in two weeks. However I would recommend all races to a hobby beekeeper! Try the Russian! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:40:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Troy Fore Subject: Foundation Funding Habitat Research Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Foundation Funding Research on Honey Bee Habitat The Foundation for the Preservation of Honey Bees, is currently seeking research proposals related to habitat restoration and conservation to preserve honey bee pollinators. The Foundation is a charitable research and education foundation organized by the American Beekeeping Federation (ABF). The Foundation was the beneficiary of a generous gift from the Glenn and Gertude Overturf estate and is sustained by ongoing gifts from beekeepers and other supportive individuals. The Foundation Trustees recently received some one-time donations to support research on Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD). All researchers who are conducting experiments that directly address reasons for the recent collapse of honey bees are eligible to apply. The total amount available at this time is $10,000. Examples of studies might include (but are not limited to) research and extension on seed mixtures that bloom over an extended season and provide maximum nutritional value to bees that could be planted in agricultural and urban landscapes; and/or the value of CRP land on bee nutrition, honey production and colony health. Proposals must be received by the Foundation no later than Aug. 15, 2008. Recipients will be selected and notified by Oct. 1, 2008. For the complete Request for Proposals, contact Troy Fore, Executive Director, Foundation for the Preservation of Honey Bees via email: troyfore@honeybeepreservation.org. The Foundation Trustees solicit contributions from the beekeeping industry and the general public to support its work. The Foundation is organized under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, contributions qualify for tax-deductible treatment. For further information about the Foundation for the Preservation of Honey Bees, Inc., please contact the office at P.O. Box 1317, Jesup, GA 31598, ph. 912-427-4233, fax 912-427-8447, or via e-mail: info@honeybeepreservation.org. Visit our website at www.honeybeepreservation.org. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:57:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: A Working Business Model - The Key to Breeding a Better Bee In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >a leading factor that contributes to mite problems with migratory beekeepers is the fact if > they are doing almonds and brooding up their bees in winter they never get > much of a break in the brood rearing and consequently have large mites loads > in spring. Brian, I'm sure that this statement may apply to you northerners, but before varroa we westerners simply moved our bees to almonds each year, without feeding or stimulation. If the colonies were on a decent fall pollen flow, they could go straight into almonds in early February, and be quite strong for pollination. I recall some of the strongest colonies that I ever saw coming out of Colorado--hauled from freezing dormancy, then exploding in California. Bob's observations are again quite on point. Most commercial beeks are not breeders. Those who experimented heavily with avoiding mite control by using resistant stocks (such as Bob and myself) often suffered major losses for our efforts. On the other hand, I see hobbyists, with less mite external mite pressure, keeping bees successfully with minimal treatments. To me, they are a glimpse of our potential future. Meanwhile, it is dang tough to make a living as a beekeeper. I'm terrible at it. I could be making much more if I simply used a few off label treatments--they are highly cost effective from a business standpoint. But there are always some who are motivated by more than profit. They are willing to take the losses and do things the hard way. Kirk Webster is a model for me (although I've only met him once, briefly). We often look and feel foolish, but are just too dang stubborn. Many of us will likely fail, but a few are succeeding. I'm not about to tell my commercial friends who are far better beekeepers than myself (and far more profitable) how to run their operations. They are going to follow success, not theory or faith. I can assure the List that there are a large number of commercial operators who are smart, progressive, and would love to give up synthetic chemicals if they could. It is my personal challenge to run a small commercial operation without chemicals. I have been able to give up the synthetics for some years, and an now working on learning to minimize or eliminate any "natural treatments." I feel that I am making great progress toward that goal, but not enough yet to suggest it yet to larger operators. By sharing our successes (and failures), and learning from each other, without damning each other, we can all progress toward our common goal--keeping healthy bees profitably, and with the least chemical inputs. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:52:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: AB 771, the next chapter begins In-Reply-To: <380-22008656153451957@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathy Kellison wrote: > It would cost the growers appox. $1500 an acre to net their trees with a > shelf life of 3 years on the nets. The growers could still offer their fruit at > competitive prices. If exclusion zoning goes into effect, beekeepers and all bees, > could be blocked from the entire citrus belt of California. One thing I found when there were no more bees in my area was plants still got pollinated. How are they going to keep out all the native pollinators, other than massive uses of pesticide? As an aside, so far only my cherry tree has set less fruit that normal. The reason is there is just more to pollinate, so with no bees, the natives could not do the job, which is why I started keeping bees in the first place, for pollination of my garden and fruit trees. In any case, their absence did make a measurable difference. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:55:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Pollen Hoarding Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > How do you differentiate between "commercial" and "feral"? Aren't ferals > mostly escaped commercial stock? Why would they be different? Even worse, as soon as they are in an apiary, they are no longer feral. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:34:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: A Working Business Model - The Key to Breeding a Better Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit yeah Randy my comments are strictly from a northern perspective. the northern stationary beeks I know rarely treat in spring while the migratory keepers come back , split and need to treat and treat in the fall again too. . all the resistant genetics in the world don't seem to matter in an extended brooding cycle. i hear from stationary beeks who have success with minimal treatments or no treatments. not hearing that from migratory up here. most of the shop rag enforcement actions by MDA are in spring too. when bees from almonds arrive here in April or May we have a huge pollen flow from trees, shrubs and dandelion. its build up time and they explode with all of the incoming feed. if you wanted to control mites, giving your bees 2+ extra months on the front end to build up is not really a good strategy is it? we have another segment of migratory keepers who move south in winter and make up new hives to move here in spring and skip the almonds. they also sell cells and nucs instead of doing almonds to make it worth the move. i don't see much likelihood that a bee will be developed that can survive the rigors of cross country pollination and extended brood cycles. from that perspective you either choose to minimize the buildup of mites on your bees or skip over that in favor of income cash flow. i'm not making a judgement here i'm just stating the obvious facts. seems like ya can't have it both ways. optimal mite control or almonds. am i missing something here? I';m sure in CA or other warm regions the realities are much different. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:44:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: BREAKDOWN OF WORKER BEE DUTIES In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was talking with anopther bee person yesterday and we got to wondering, what percentage of the bee population are foragers, what percentage guard bees, nurse bees, etc. Does anyone have a breakdwon on thiis? I know things change during the seasons so let's just consider the time during honey flow and swaarming. Thanks, Mike in LA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 17:25:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: BREAKDOWN OF WORKER BEE DUTIES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The percentage of bees occupied with different duties changes with the season (time of year) and with the size of the bee population. Jerry **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:37:28 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: A Working Business Model - The Key to Breeding a Better Bee In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- On Fri, 6/6/08, Peter de Bruyn Kops wrote: > There is no way one bee business can do significant R&D > on all aspects of > the operation. I agree, that is why I propose a business model that reinvests 3 to 5 percent into breeding a better bee. Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:54:00 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: A Working Business Model - The Key to Breeding a Better Bee In-Reply-To: <825B77FD2692474EA297D6CB3E04F32D@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Do you understand what you are saying? Most commercial > beeks are not queen > breeders. I know exactly what I am saying! And they most certainly are breeders. Every beekeeper is basically a breeder of bees. The stock you keep around affects your stock as well as your neighbors, negatively, as well as positively. So choose wisely in implementing strategy, and ‘breed wisely‘ will follow. > Most of the competition has went bankrupt. Many in the > early 90's using the > "live and let die" method trying to find a bee to > survive varroa. That can be explained by a ‘failed business model’. What you are setting up as an example has nothing to do with the live and let die method. It does however, have everything to do with a failure to implement a working business plan, which necessitates a business NEVER places at risk all its resources to research and development. The recommended allowance for research and development is 2 to 5 percent, perhaps as much as 10% tops. So therefore, any business going bankrupt with a ‘live and let die method‘, did so by allocating too much of their resources towards research and development. And places the root cause for the bankruptcy on the failure to implement a practical business plan. Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:04:43 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: A Working Business Model - The Key to Breeding a Better Bee In-Reply-To: <4849222E.2020807@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > I love these discussions since they usually are hobby > beekeepers giving commercial beekeepers advice on how to > conduct their business. Here you are wrong. ;) I have many years experience running a sideline business not related to bees. I am speaking on equal footing as a ‘business man’ giving advice to others on how to run a business by creating a buisness model to follow. People can be expert commercial beekeepers and still fail as a businessman. The thread stared by me nothing to do with a hobby beekeeper giving advise to commercial beekeepers. ;) Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 08:10:57 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: communication between honey-bee species MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick wrote > Something about this troubles me. My reading tells me that Apis Ceranae > predate on EHBs and AHBs and eventually take over the hive by out > producing > Ceranae eggs. The eventual output of the situation is "no more Mellifera." > There is a transition stage. I can't believe that the mentioned > researchers > do not know this, so something else must be going on. I guess they never > actually said that the mix was viable. Straighten me out someone. Are you sure you are not mixing up the asian bee (Apis cerana) with the Cape bee (Apis mellifera capensis)? I am not aware that cerana predates on mellifera. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 00:07:49 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: AB 771, the next chapter begins In-Reply-To: <48499578.50006@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline As an aside, so far only my cherry tree has set less fruit that normal. The reason is there is just more to pollinate, so with no bees, the natives could not do the job, which is why I started keeping bees in the first place, for pollination of my garden and fruit trees. In any case, their absence did make a measurable difference. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine I believe the above also applies to the fruit industry and is the basis for renting bee for pollination. It is a matter of saturation, ideally fruit industry wants more pollinators than flowers to be pollinated. It is my challenge as a bussiness man to be able to provide this service. I= t is my challenge as a beekeeper to manage those hives to the highest standard. It is my challenge as a living creature to say no, that is enough= . I haven=B4t been able to design a strategy to become an organic honey produ= cer while at the same time been able to provide the pollination service. I haven=B4t develop a method to have my queen lasting two full season. I haven=B4t design a flower route that allows me not to feed. I haven=B4t be= en able to develop a bee line varroa free. So I pollinate for three month a year and produce "just" Honey for other four month and change my queen the second autum, and if I have energy each 7 to 9 months. and feed and treat. And believe I come close to perfection "next season". --=20 Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:21:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: A Working Business Model - The Key to Breeding a Better Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > seems like ya can't have it both ways. optimal mite control or almonds. am i missing something here? I';m sure in CA or other warm regions the realities are much different. I think several key points are being missed. The idea to breed better bees is hardly a new thing. Brother Adam spent a large part of the 20th century on this problem and explored the concept of crossing different races to produce hybrid vigor. There is a very real possibility that efforts to breed a better bee have failed simply because a better bee in NOT one that is bred but is produced by natural selection. And no, I don't mean so-called feral populations in the "wilds" of America. Real feral populations exist in other countries, however. Brazil, South Africa, Australia come to mind. But the key point that I would try (try!) to make is that commercial beekeepers successfully trucked bees around this country for decades. The problems they have are not caused by trucking bees. Honey bees are in a weakened state and no longer hold up very well to being trucked around. Good healthy colonies were available right up into the 1980s. When varroa hit, everything changed and we have not really solved that problem. Things have simply gotten worse. It is logical that they should, after all. You take an invasive pest, which vectors viral disease and knock it down about 90% over and over -- what do you get? You get tough mites, weakened bees, and a whole slew of opportunistic infections, like nosema, mutated viruses, possibly *combined* viruses. It is known that the risk of pathogens being formed by the deliberate recombining of genetic material (GMO) pales in comparison to the recombining that is going on all the time among natural populations of viruses, bacteria, microsporidians and the whole lot. Sure, beekeepers have contributed to the problem by abusing miticides and leaning to hard on the bees. Hives barely get back onto their feet and they are split repeatedly to get the numbers back. This situation was not caused by beekeepers. It is an unfortunate fact of life that the world is no longer a bunch of isolated continents and there are invasive pests everywhere. The honey bee as WE know it may not survive. It is very easy to imagine hive bees failing altogether in US and Europe. It won't mean the end of mankind, and yes, we will still have fruit and vegetables. But they may come from other countries where they have tougher bees. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 04:22:05 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: A Working Business Model - The Key to Breeding a Better Bee In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline You can allways import those tougher bees, don`t you?. If they exist and your country opens to the world!! You have created a nation out of inmigrants, why do you keep your door shut for bees? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:32:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: africanized bee questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just published, the authors looked into the genetic composition of the bees in the 3 northwestern states of Mexico: Sonora, Baja California North and Baja California South (BCS). African bees were first discovered in Sonora (which borders Arizona) in 1993. Baja California South is the southern end of one of the longest peninsulas in the world and has had an isolated population for decades, which makes it a haven for queen breeders hoping to raise and sell non-Africanized queens in Mexico. However, the study calls into question the status as an African-free zone, despite its nearly island status. The region is separated from the rest of Mexico by oceans on all but the northern end, which is a vast and inhospitable desert. How the African bees got to the region is a question: > It may be possible that swarms find it more difficult to travel to the southern part of the Peninsula given the extreme climatic conditions and the mountain barriers found across the area. However,evidence of AHB colonization such as a high number of migrating swarms has been recently reported in BCS. > In this study we confirmed the presence of AHB in NW México by both morphometrics and molecular markers. We also found a high frequency of colonies with European markers in the managed population and evidence of colonies with mixed morphotype and haplotype. These results are in contrast with the high frequency of African-derived markers found in tropical populations in México. > The southern part of Baja California Sur (BCS) remains officially as an Africanized free zone. However, the status as an Africanized honey bee free zone should be revised since there is evidence that hybridization is now occurring and soon the genetic composition of European breeding stock may include African genes. "Frequency of European and African-derived morphotypes and haplotypes in colonies of honey bees (Apis mellifera) from NW Mexico" by Omar Zamora, et al; in: Apidologie 39 (2008) DOI: 10.1051/apido:2008016 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:43:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: A Working Business Model - The Key to Breeding a Better Bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline What strikes me in all the discussions that I have on the plight of the honey bee, is that the most vocal seem to be the least informed, while the most informed have the least to say that is definite: "What's frightening about CCD is that it's not predictable or understood," vanEngelsdorp said. > As beekeepers travel with their hives this spring to pollinate crops around the country, it's clear the bees themselves are buckling under the weight of new diseases, pesticide drift and old enemies like the parasitic varroa mite, said Dennis vanEngelsdorp, president of the Apiary Inspectors of America. > This is the second year the association has measured colony deaths across the country. This means there aren't enough numbers to show a trend, but clearly bees are dying at unsustainable levels and the situation is not improving, said vanEngelsdorp, bee expert with the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:00:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: communication between honey-bee species In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Could any of that be related to the issue of different species being able to decipher each other's languages? Actually, very interesting work was done on this by Kirk Visscher. He found that when conditions are favorable, bees tend to ignore all the dancing and flight straight to honey sources. Ironically, this confirms Wenner's contention that bees ignore the dancing and use odor cues. However, when conditions are poor, the use of dance information is crucial to the bee's finding scarce resources, which shows that they do use the info when they need it. I would compare this to the use of advertising. For example, as I type this in GMAIL, along the right side of the screen is a whole lot of "targeted advertising" which reads my email (the snoops) and offers me what they think I want. Sponsored Links Honey&Beekeeping Supplies All your Beekeeping Needs Packages,Nucs and Queens www.nebees.com Best Swarm Removal Tool Easy to use, lasts for years, seals completly. Safe Transportation. www.NODApiaryProducts.com etc. I probably never even look there, but I know that if I want to buy something, the internet will serve it up to me in a microsecond. The information is always there if I "need" it. Same for the bees. If they need to know where good sources are, they can "read" the dance language and go there directly. Otherwise they just fly out and work the nearest stuff that smells right. * * * they say: No humans will read the content of your email in order to target such advertisements or related information. Because the ads and related pages are matched to information that is of interest to you, we hope you'll find them relevant and useful. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 22:06:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: U.S. Farm Bill to Include Funds for Honeybee Research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII U.S. Farm Bill to Include Funds for Honeybee Research Honeybee Researchers to Receive Additional Federal Funds By Susan Salisbury, Palm Beach Post (USA), 6/6/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/06/us-farm-bill-to-include-funds-for_07.html The chances are excellent that honeybee researchers will receive additional federal funds to help solve the mystery of Colony Collapse Disorder, a Florida congressman said this week... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:00:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: communication between honey-bee species Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Pete. Well I suppose Apis cerana and Apis mellifera are probably the two closest related species with mellifera being a bit larger. If memory serves me correctly, I’ve read (but can’t remember where) that cerana and mellifera bees have been shown to mate, although no offspring was produced. Eva Crane has a drawing, taken from Dade, in her book ‘Bees and Beekeeping’ of the drone endophallus of the four primary species--cerana florea, dorsata, and mellifera. The endophallus of cerana and mellifera look stikingly similar to one another, whereas those of the other two are noticeably different. I’m curious to know if the other species would cohabitate at all. It seems unlikely to me although I’m sure someone, somewhere has looked into it. Trevor, I think, perhaps, there was some confusion about the races and species between Apis mellifera capensis and Apis cerana. Regards, Dick Allen **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:54:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: communication between honey-bee species In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Although Cerana bees must have shared a common ancestor with Mellifera, they have evolved into separate species. It is not possible to cross Cerana with Mellifera even using instrumental insemination, because the two species are now genetically incompatible, and viable eggs do not result from the cross fertilisation. Other differences include their differing reactions to diseases, infestations and predators. Cerana can tolerate varroa and has developed an effective defence strategy against the Giant Hornet, against which Mellifera bees have no defence. Cerana is however, highly susceptible to the acarine mite, which arrived with the introduction of Mellifera bees into Cerana territory. It is also highly susceptible to sac brood and foul brood, but not markedly so to nosema. (c) BIBBA 1996 Ashleigh Milner http://www.angus.co.uk/bibba/bibborig.html * * * > Perhaps the best of all worlds would be a mellifera- cerana mix of bees. This controversial possibility was reported by Dr. Eric Mussen in his latest From the UC Apiaries. The same Dr. Wongsiri mentioned above has apparently reported that mellifera colonies will accept frames of emerging cerana brood. The cerana bees then groom their mellifera sisters in the colony, removing and biting the Varroa mites. What the beekeeper winds up with is a sub-population of honey producing mellifera cared for by a sub-population of cerana! > Many also favor bringing in African bees from Brazil or Africa. One reason is that both Brazil and Africa report fewer disease problems; however, as the article on the numbers game in this newsletter reports, there are disease problems in Brazil. Nevertheless, those promoting importation use the rationale that because the U.S. now has Varroa, and tracheal mites, nothing new could possibly hurt the U.S. beekeeping industry. For a fuller discussion of stock introduction, see the April 1989 APIS. > This concept is debatable. An interesting situation has arisen in Argentina, presumably due to importation of a large quantity of queens from the U.S. American foulbrood, previously unknown in that country, is now epidemic. (c)1990 M.T. Sanford http://tinyurl.com/6ow4u4 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:53:44 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Honey Insurance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline How many of you Canadians use this type of honey production insurance? http://www.agricorp.com/en-ca/uploaddocuments/d1433+2008_Honey_Web_en.pdf Does this type of insurance exist anywhere else in the world? Can you provide links? Would this production qualify as a subsidized production, and therefore subject to antidumping duties? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:23:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: communication between honey-bee species MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Allen wrote: > I'm curious to know if the other species would cohabitate at all. It seems > unlikely to me although > I'm sure someone, somewhere has looked into it. Not sure whether it can be classed as co-habiting, but I have had a bumblebee nest in the same brood box as a mellifera colony. The mellifera colony was really only a 5 frame nuc at one end of a full sized box and the bumblebees lived at the other end. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 07:37:08 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: communication between honey-bee species MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick wrote > If memory serves me correctly, I've read (but can't remember where) that > cerana and mellifera > bees have been shown to mate, although no offspring was produced. Yes there is a paper out from Japan, which I cannot put my hands on at the moment, which showed that Apis mellifera carnica queens mated with Apis cerana drones and there was no viable brood produced. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************