From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:08:01 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.8 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ALL_NATURAL, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8869F4907C for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y6u017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0806C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 130813 Lines: 2893 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:12:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Maus Subject: Almond Pollination Unsustainable In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10806141102o33c66c72v6337d37e40a33eeb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy Oliver is a very astute and accurate with his observations in all areas. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 08:26:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: The dances are never performed without an audience Comments: To: Ruth Rosin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ruth Rosin writes to Peter Borst > You are free to treat what I said here any way you wish. But, this is as far as I am willing to pursue this whole issue. Yes, well, you have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that you will never stop trying to recruit adherents to your anti-science, anti-understanding point of view. And to this day you choose to ignore the bulk of the evidence and misinterpret what little you do accept. No doubt you have read none of Donald Griffin's writing nor Tom Seeley's because they are deluded fools. SEE: "Animal Minds: Beyond Cognition to Consciousness" By Donald Redfield Griffin (2001) ISBN 0-226-30865-0 "The Wisdom of the Hive: The Social Physiology of Honey Bee Colonies" By Thomas D. Seeley Published (1995) Harvard University Press ISBN:0674953762 "Can an Insect Speak? The Case of the Honeybee Dance Language" By Eileen Crist (2004) Social Studies of Science 34/1 7–43 Eileen Crist writes The communicative nature of the dance is apparent in that dances are never performed without an audience (von Frisch, 1967; Seeley, 1995; Griffin, 2001). Rosin attacked the dance language on the grounds that it contravenes a clear-cut demarcation between human and insect realms: The controversy between [the] . . . 'language' hypothesis and . . . [the] olfactory hypothesis for the arrival of honey bee recruits at field sources, is essentially a controversy between a human-level hypothesis for an insect and an insect-level hypothesis for an insect. Since a hypothesis which claims human-level 'language' for an insect upsets the very foundation of behavior, and biology in general, the burden of proof for the 'language' hypothesis is, and always was, upon supporters of that hypothesis. (1978: 589) [This is Ruth Rosin, writing THIRTY years ago] Eileen continues: The meanings of a 'human-level hypothesis' and 'insect-level hypothesis' are assumed to be both clear and fixed. The author [Rosin] proceeds to make the burden of proof for a 'human-level hypothesis' an endless task for the proponents of the dance language. Rosin's grievances appear as an instantiation of H.M. Collins' idea of 'experimental regress', for the distinct impression is conveyed that no experiment could establish the dance language beyond all doubt, since a flaw might always be discerned in its design (see Rosin, 1978 etc. etc.) Rejecting the dance language, Rosin wrote, 'maintains honeybees at a state of ordinary insects, which may be disappointing. But then, it also retains our old-fashioned phylogenetic system in a relatively intact state, which is no small consolation' (1978: 600). One might well wonder, in the post-Darwinian life sciences, what an 'old-fashioned phylogenetic system' exactly is, and why it is a consolation to retain it (see for example, Gould, 1977: chapter 3, on Darwin's non-hierarchical conception of evolution and phylogeny). Rosin's critiques of the dance language are the most transparent in showing that the dance-as-code was objectionable for disturbing a priori hierarchical assumptions. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:07:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: The dances are never performed without an audience In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What the dance language does do is raise questions as to not what information it might convey, but where did it come from. That is not an easy question to answer, since it gets into the world of consciousness and intelligence. Only philosophers feel at all secure in that world since they all can disagree with each other since it is only opinion. There have been several interesting studies involving birds and their "language". At one time it was thought that the songs were instinctively hard wired into each species. But now, at least for some birds, it is a learning process. The young birds babble just like a human infant with no discernible pattern or transfer of information. But they learn from the adults until they master their species songs. No hard wiring and no instinct. Is the dance language a learned trait? It appears to have been around for a long time as it seems to be in different distinct honeybee races. But if it is a learned trait, then why have bees (along with other species) stayed in the same rut for literally millions of years with no upward progression? So it must be instinct? We are at one of those questions that has no answer... at least not today. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 21:04:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: The dances are never performed without an audience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bill Truesdell wrote: > [Birds] learn from the adults until they master their species songs. No hard wiring and no instinct. But they inherit the ability to sing and the capacity to learn: that part is "instinct". > why have bees (along with other species) stayed in the same rut for literally millions of years with no upward progression? So it must be instinct? Well, there is progression from species to species. Apis florea has one comb and dances on the top, pointing toward the food source. The cavity nesting bees normally are in complete darkness and they dance in a direction which is X degrees off vertical and *represents* that many degrees left or right of the direction toward the sun. Some wasps carry out simple buzz runs which serve to excite the colony. This buzz run is also used by honey bees to excite a swarm in preparation for departure. > Using slow-motion analyses of video recordings, we made a detailed description of this signalling behaviour: a buzz-runner runs about the swarm cluster in great excitement, tracing out a crooked path, buzzing her wings in bursts, bulldozing between idle bees and periodically performing a conspicuous wiggling movement. It seems likely that the buzz-run signal is a ritualized form of a bee's take-off behaviour, with the wing buzzing greatly exaggerated and other behavioural elements (running, butting and wiggling) added to increase the signal's detectability. > It turns out that the scout bees from the chosen nest site are responsible for producing both the piping signal to prime a swarm for take-off and the buzz-run signal to trigger the take-off. We suggest that these bees produce the signal that triggers take-off because they travel throughout the swarm cluster while piping and so are able to sense when the entire swarm is hot enough to take flight. The mechanisms mediating take-offs by honeybee swarms appear to present us with a rare instance where an action of a large social insect colony is controlled by a small set of individuals that actively monitor the global state of their colony and produce a signal triggering the colony's action in a timely way. > Readiness for flight to the new home depends critically on all the bees in the swarm having a thoracic temperature of at least 35 C, which is needed for rapid flight. Indeed, it is not until 100% of the coolest, outermost bees in a swarm cluster have achieved this temperature that the swarm takes off. How can 'all' the bees in a swarm know when they are 'all' hot enough? One way would be to have some bees travel all about the cluster, census the temperatures of their swarm mates, integrate this information to determine the global temperature state of the swarm, and produce a departure signal when their polling has revealed that the required warmth has been achieved. > It seems likely that this is how it works on swarms, for we now know that the scouts from the chosen site move quickly throughout the swarm cluster, with each one pausing every few seconds to press her thorax against another bee and produce the piping signal that stimulates warming. And, we now know that it is these same bees that strongly produce the buzz-run signal in the final few minutes before take-off, when all the bees are reaching the high body temperature required for departure. -- The buzz-run: how honeybees signal 'Time to go!' CLARE C. RITTSCHOF & THOMAS D. SEELEY (2008) ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR, 75, 189-197 PS But the whole notion of progress is all in our own minds. Nature is about successful adaptation. If a species is successful, no change is required. If there are challenges to that species from the environment (there usually are) such as climate, predators, disease, etc. then the species may need to adapt over time by developing better defenses, by getting smarter, faster, whatever is required. A species which buries itself in mud may not seem very progressive to us, but it may outlast us. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 04:17:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Honey Injections Used to Treat Pneumonia Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Honey Injections Used to Treat Pneumonia Treatment of Severe Pneumonia by Intravenous Honey in a Patient with Malignant Bone Tumor http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/06/honey-injections-used-to-treat.html Presented last week at APIMEDICA and APIQUALITY 2008 in Rome by Mamdouh Abdulrhman, Professor of Pediatrics, Faculty of Medicine, Ain Shams University, Cairo, Egypt …Because of its anti-microbial, anti-tumor and anti-inflammatory properties, honey was used for treatment of this case. Two forms of honey therapy were used: (1) Oral honey in a dose of 50 ml dissolved in water and given before meals three times daily, and (2) Intravenous injection of 5 ml 20% honey solution every two weeks (a total of 3 injections were given)… **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 04:24:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Traces of Antibiotics, Lead Found in Indian Honey Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Traces of Antibiotics, Lead Found in Indian Honey Honey Industry Stung by Traces of Antibiotics, Lead Sukhdeep Kaur, Indian Express, 6/16/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/06/traces-of-antibiotics-lead-found-in.html India’s flourishing honey industry, based primarily in Punjab, has pressed the panic button after over 90 per cent of export samples were found contaminated with residues of antibiotics and lead... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:11:30 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zen Mind Hive Mind Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't think there is much randomness in what bees do. All bees travel the colony pretty much all the time. This gives them a decent assessment of its size, state, resources, and season-adjusted needs. Then, they respond to the needs. Individual bees flex to the tasks most needing completion (in manufacturing, this is called demand flow technology). It's a management by common objectives organization. There is signal ling between individual bees and there is an overall signal ling based on the colony assessment. I wish I could read it better but bee buzzing is different depending on the state of the colony. Buzzing induces vibratory response in the comb which can be picked up from its one end to another by all the bees. This is complemented by odor communication. Bees excel at assessment and analysis of their nest's needs. This may all be hard-wired programming without much of what we think of as intelligence. And there is certainly a consensus building process as well since different races of bees have slightly different preferences. A colony consists of a number of patrilines with potentially differing goals and they all need to pick the common ones. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:23:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marianne Coursen Subject: Bees in a storm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been enjoying everyone's posts. I am by far a novice beekeeper = and maintain two hives where I work at the Farmers' Museum. Our = "pharmacist" observed a honeybee in a peony and saw that it went deep = down inside the flower at the same time of an impending storm. He = wondered if that was the bee's way of staying safe until the storm = passed. Any thoughts? =20 Marieanne =20 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:48:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Fischer wrote: >But the massively misinformed idea that "migratory >beekeeping" in general is anything new, or puts >some new "stress" on the bees is laughable in the >extreme, given that migratory beekeeping has been >around since at least 3,000 BC or so. Up until the late 1800’s and early 1900’s the movement of hives by beekeepers could be more accurately defined as ‘transhumance beekeeping’; vertical seasonal bee hive movement, typically to higher pastures in summer and to lower valleys in winter, or movement to extend the honey producing season or to new sources of forage. To say that migratory beekeeping of today is in any way comparable to traditional transhumance beekeeping from 3,000 years ago could also be termed, to those having such sense of humor, laughable as well. ==== According to The World History of Beekeeping and Honey Hunting By Eva Crane 35.1 Why hives were migrated “Practices of migratory beekeeping changed little until the late 1800’s and early 1900’s, when mechanical road transport was becoming reliable and movable-frame hives were in common use. By then, farmers were starting to grow monoculture and non-native crop plants, and beekeepers increased their honey production by moving hives on to some of them. Later, hives of bees were increasingly migrated to crops to pollinate them” “…through the centuries, most migration was undertaken to get an extra crop of honey.” ==== So, just to name a few differences between migratory beekeeping and transhumance beekeeping; *A reliable mechanical road transport allowing migration over greater distances. *The lengthening of the foraging season to a greater degree allowed by mechanical road transport. *The movement of hives for the purpose of , as opposed most migration in the past which according to Eva Crane was undertaken for the singular reason to get an “extra crop of honey“. *The switch since the late 8000’s to monoculture and non native crop plants, serving to reduce nutritional forage variety for honeybees. Best Wishes, Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:25:54 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Formic Acid reacting with plastic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all: Received this question over on the OrganicBeekeepers list and need a formal answer but so far, nothing.......can someone help here with references? Does anyone know when formic acid is used against Varroa mites and you use plastic frames in the boxes, if the acid can react in any way with the plastic and create and bad gas/chemical for the bees? Also, in thinking, would it react with various queen cell cups, wax over plastic like durigult? Since plastic does outgas, and plastic does breakdown (floating in ocean and in landfills so noted). What about other acids used in hives also? Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:59:05 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Cinder block colony removal - an update. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I thought I would share in my cinderblock removal experience. I have completed the removal of 2 out of the 3 colonies in the cinderblock wall building. About 10 lbs of bees, two queens, and the combs. On a relative scale, a cinderblock removal is not much more involved than a 2x4" wall removal. In some ways, I found it easier. We broke through the outer face of each cinderblock with a sledge hammer to expose the combs. After that, vacuuming the bees and cutting out the combs was straightforward. The larger of the 2 colonies was in about 14-15 cinderblocks. The other was a somewhat new swarm in 7 blocks. The facilities man will install narrow cinderblock in the space of damaged blocks - it's not difficult. The trickiest part was heading off the bees and queens retreating in the face of the assault into the blocks beyond the extent of the nest. Came up with a simple technique for this. One of the queens was very dark with only some orange-brown at the bottom of the sides. The other one less so. Both colonies were loaded with healthy looking drones - ~95% of them pitch black. [My drones come out light brown where I mate my queens.] All the bees were very healthy looking. Not a single shriveled wing or wings at 90 deg. to the body. Tight brood patterns. Good honey stores. With all the banging, these bees were well behaved. I had a surprise about the honey combs. I had expected them to be parallel to the blocks. Most on them run on a diagonal and they were mostly continuous in crossing over from one block to an adjacent one. It made sense to me afterwards, the middle comb provides the greatest surface area in this odd cavity geometry for optimum brood-rearing and overwintering. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:41:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Formic Acid reacting with plastic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit * European Organic standards forbid the use of plastic hives, frames, foundation, etc. They also forbid the use of paint. According to the EU Regulation: The conversion of traditionally managed honey farms to organic production methods must be carried out by substituting all the combs in the hive with foundation obtained from organic beekeeping. - No synthetic repellents; - Foundation sheet from organic wax only; - Hives from natural material only. Small components from plastics are allowed; - Painting or coating only with wax, propolis or plant oils is allowed; - For disinfection use only mechanical measures, heat or caustic soda. The focus is not just on product quality but also on sustaining bees' vitality and health as well as beekeeper's impact on the environment. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:22:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:12:43 -0500, Jim Maus wrote: >Randy Oliver is a very astute and accurate with his observations in all >areas. Especially in beekeeping! Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:08:12 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Fw: [BEE-L] Formic Acid reacting with plastic Comments: To: DeniseBenson@bobcats.net In-Reply-To: <540550.81719.qm@web63111.mail.re1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Denise Benson, Really, then you don't know the answer to the question, especially since formic acid comes in plastic bottles. By the way, does it react more with plastic frames of varying plastic, or wooden frames? Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:15:50 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Formic Acid reacting with plastic In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter Borst, European Organic standards forbid the use of plastic hives, frames, foundation, etc. Reply: Since this was a general question to me and many beekeepers being non-organic do use the acids, then no answer to the question, even though formic acid comes in plastic bottles. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:20:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Cinder block colony removal - an update. In-Reply-To: <20080616.115905.10141.0@webmail06.dca.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16-Jun-08, at 3:59 PM, waldig@netzero.net wrote: > > I had a surprise about the honey combs. I had expected them to be > parallel to the blocks. Most on them run on a diagonal and they > were mostly continuous in crossing over from one block to an > adjacent one. It made sense to me afterwards, the middle comb > provides the greatest surface area in this odd cavity geometry for > optimum brood-rearing and overwintering. > > Hi Waldemar and all What compass direction were the combs oriented? We have an old(even older than me) beekeeper in our association who claims that bees always orient their combs in an east west plane. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:41:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: africanized bee questions In-Reply-To: <12910198.1212850689182.JavaMail.root@m03> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter L. Borst wrote: >Just published, the authors looked into the genetic composition of the >bees in the 3 northwestern states of Mexico: Sonora, Baja California >North and Baja California South (BCS). African bees were first >discovered in Sonora (which borders Arizona) in 1993. > We (USDA-Tucson Bee Lab) had a tough time getting ANY info out of the Mexican gov't during the AHB march north through Sonora in the early 1990s. Some said it was because of the druglords controlling access to a wide swath of the border area. According to the little data we received from people who were supposed to be sampling in Mexico, the stream of "pioneer colonies" coming up the west coast of Mexico stopped at about Hermosillo (until they popped up south of Tucson and in my traps on the Pima Reservation east of Ajo, AZ prob a year later). Also, the one Mexican gov't trap I got a chance to examine, hanging on the border fence just east of Lukeville,AZ/Sonoita,Son.,Mex. had a very poor pheromone lure. In addition, beekeepers in Mexico were reported to consider "hot" queens very desirable, even back into the 1970s (see Roger Morse's published comments after the bee meeting in Acapulco in 1976, probably in Apidologie or Bee World or maybe in ABJ or Gleanings - I forget where, but definitely in print). Anyway, just as among the Florida beekeepers (sorry, boys), there was some "unauthorized traffic" in breeder queens to enhance the local stocks. As far as their comments about > Baja California > > >, which is a vast and inhospitable desert. How the African bees got >to the region is a question: > > I suggest that most deserts can support the AHB; I still believe I found a thin web of colonies surviving in SW Arizona with no free water, just barely hanging on in rocky areas until the rains came and they could jump across to more verdant pastures. These bees are real survivors. - Been There, - John Edwards **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:50:46 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: africanized bee questions In-Reply-To: <48572447.9000009@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii John Edwards: (until they popped up south of Tucson and in my traps on the Pima Reservation east of Ajo, AZ prob a year later). Reply: Actually the first so called sightings of AHB by size determination, etc. amazingly, were all within 1/4 to 1/2 mile of our bee yards and the first one south of Tucson in Sasabe was get this, small and black bees; as I was into deeply breeding to the black side then for small caucasian type bees (several thousand cells a year), until somehow that got stopped for us. But I still have maps of all original sightings marked and where in all counties. We moved out of the reservation area east of Ajo then, and later off the tohono reservation after being there since back to 1927 as politics changed. For more reading I believe much was written in the archives here on the original sightings and where found and how identified. I still stand as written long ago with results as noted from various laboratories. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:38:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Townsend Organization: TPLR Honey Farms Ltd. Subject: Re: Formic Acid reacting with plastic In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > * European Organic standards forbid the use of plastic hives, frames, > foundation, etc. They also forbid the use of paint. > > Then they are missing out, as plastic will not absorb anything like wood/wax. Canada allows plastic in it's organic standard. Tim Townsend Pierco Canada **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:13:50 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Formic Acid reacting with plastic Comments: To: Tim Townsend In-Reply-To: <4857403B.8090104@tplrhoneyfarms.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Tim Townsend writes: Formic and plastic frames create no problems for the bees or the frames. Reply: This is good to know then, especially coming from Pierco for the question was asked originally on the OrganicBeekeepers list by Erik Osterlund in Sweden. This then means to me, that leaves the woodenware for possible hurting, namely the frames with the formic acid for how the grains hold up for long life strength. It also means the plastic frames now with small cell are fine then (HSC here), for faster regression of bees back to a natural sustainable system again. Pierco is used as a first step down, along with Mann Lake plastic too. Also then the plastic is not outgassing hurting the bees itself or in combination with plastic/formic acid. But yet bees are being hurt by formic acid burning holes in their soft exoskelton and internal parts via breathing passages. Also young larva and eggs are being hurt by burning if in hives treated. Both here would then make for more diseases in a hive; and yet, the question still remains concerning negating the digestability of the pollen for good broodrearing (Ramon's earlier post here few weeks back); and I think Ari from Finland mentioned something: on was it honey or syrups or both? all which I think could be part of the CCD pot for disappearing everyone is seeing. Interesting! I feel better about promoting the pastic for usage and can now advise ERik to his original posting asking the question. Thankyou, Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 04:46:29 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Up until the late 1800's and early 1900's the movement > of hives by beekeepers could be more accurately defined > as 'transhumance beekeeping'; vertical seasonal bee hive > movement, typically to higher pastures in summer and to > lower valleys in winter, or movement to extend the honey > producing season or to new sources of forage. Yes, of course - what did you expect? Pollination contracts? > To say that migratory beekeeping of today is in any way > comparable to traditional transhumance beekeeping from > 3,000 years ago The only comparison I was making was that being "migratory" has gotten easier and easier on the bees with the advance of transportation technology. I can only think of one mode of transport that was "ideal" long ago, and that was the old trick of keeping bees on a barge on a North-South river like the Nile. That would have been easy on the bees. > The switch since the late 8000's to monoculture and non native > crop plants, serving to reduce nutritional forage variety > for honeybees. OK, lets pick a non-native crop that is grown in monoculture. How about Almonds? Go ask Randy, given that you consider him to be "astute and accurate" - ask him about the nutrition of putting bees on almonds. He will tell you that the bees will do GREAT on almonds, as long as the hives are not deployed when half dead. Let's pick another - Purple Loostrife. The bees go crazy over the stuff. But the Purple Loostrife makes its own monoculture by forcing out other growth. Up in Vermont, entire ponds are ringed with it and streams are "choked" by it. And recall that honey bees are not native to this continent, so when you say "non-native crop plants", are you claiming that a non-native pollinator will somehow do better on native plants? How's that work, exactly? Why wouldn't the bees do best on the plants that evolved where the bees evolved? Oh, that's right - the reason is simple - bees are generalists, and can make a living off whatever is making nectar and pollen at the moment, and switch between nectar sources multiple times per day. As a general rule, exotic invasive plants are the favorites of bees. If they did not offer better nectar rewards to pollinators, they would not spread so fast so as to earn the label "invasive", now would they? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 05:01:51 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Zen Mind Hive Mind MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > All bees travel the colony pretty much all the time. > This gives them a decent assessment of its size, > state, resources, and season-adjusted needs. > Then, they respond to the needs. Studies were done (as described by Gould and Gould in their book) where the bees had no ability to get to, walk on, or inspect empty drawn comb, yet the presence of the empty comb still had the effect of prompting more foraging sorties than control colonies with far less empty comb. So, it is comb pheromone that "informs" the bees as to the state of their larder, rather than individual inspections by each bee. Ditto for brood pheromone. The new "Bee Boost" product claims to enhance pollen foraging with the chemical alone, something that would have no effect if bees were wandering around counting open brood cells or estimating brood area themselves. Also, if you mark bees when they emerge in an observation hive, you will find that younger bees do not enjoy the run of the entire hive, but tend to stay in their age-appropriate "work areas". **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:36:40 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Cinder block colony removal - an update. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>We have an old (even older than me) beekeeper in our association who claims that bees always orient their combs in an east west plane. That's an interesting observation. It was mostly the same for the two colonies I collected from the block wall. I say mostly because the combs turned here and there to go around mortar etc. The combs I removed from what used be an icebox hollow under a window in an old brick apartment building in NYC last Friday, were oriented perpendicular to the entrance hole in the east-west direction. I am doing a colony removal from the hollow space above a bay window in a cape house tonight. I'll check on the comb orientation. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:50:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Zen Mind Hive Mind Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Fischer wrote: >So, it is comb pheromone that "informs" the bees as >to the state of their larder, rather than individual >inspections by each bee. Tom Seeley told me that foragers also produce a particular pheromone that regulates the number of bees deployed to foraging. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 04:18:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Honey Injections Used to Treat Osteoarthritis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Honey Injections Used to Treat Osteoarthritis Intraarticular Injection of Honey in Treatment of Hip Osteoarthritis: A Case Study http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/06/honey-injections-used-to-treat_17.html By Mamdouh Abdulrhman, Professor of Pediatrics, Faculty of Medicine, Ain Shams University, Cairo, Egypt A 56-year-old farmer came to my office on June 22, 2006, seeking for an alternative treatment for his right hip joint pain, which had been present for about 10 years. The condition was diagnosed as severe osteoarthritis of the right hip joint; based on symptoms (pain and limitation of movement) and radiological findings... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:44:54 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zen Mind Hive Mind Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...i thought the term "pheromone" specifically referred to a sent produced by an animal. certainly comb can have a smell, and is produced by the bees...but is this a pheromone? is the smell of empty comb really distinct from that of comb with something in it? (well, there is less surface area in used comb for sure...but with no way to compare the total amount of comb to the empty portion, i'm not sure how that helps). ...or is it a lack of other pheromones (brood, eggs, nursebees inspecting cells, etc) that does the triggering? in short, what is "empty comb pheromone" and how does it function? deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:07:02 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Zen Mind Hive Mind MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...i thought the term "pheromone" specifically > referred to a sent produced by an animal. Entomology does not always respect etymology, but bees make wax and also make the pheromone in the wax, so the concept can duck inside your strict definition. > is the smell of empty comb really distinct from > that of comb with something in it? Yes. I think Gould and Gould covered the whole series of experiments with comb to verify the influence of comb on the colony. Seeley also mentioned some of these experiments in "Wisdom Of The Hive". The specific impact of foraging enthusiasm is pretty clear, so the bees can detect the difference. Pretty darn good for a brain the size of a pinhead, huh? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:50:57 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Up until the late 1800's and early 1900's the movement > of hives by beekeepers could be more accurately defined > as 'transhumance beekeeping'; vertical seasonal bee hive > movement, typically to higher pastures in summer and to > lower valleys in winter, or movement to extend the honey > producing season or to new sources of forage. One is usually safe quoting Eva Crane, but in this specific case, she was wrong. I had a strange sense of Deja Vu about this discussion, and sure enough, back in 12/2007 Lloyd Spear started a thread called "Pimping Bees". I contributed this tibit: ================================ An entertaining story can be found in the collection of papers called "The Bureaucracy of Ptolemaic Egypt" (found at Columbia U, copies elsewhere), where a group of beekeepers petition a local official for the return of their asses, conscripted for some unnamed public works project. They pointed out that they had loaned their donkeys for 10 days, and 18 days had passed without their return. The growers were waiting impatiently for the beekeepers to move their hives, as the growers wanted to burn the weeds and brush and then flood the fields. The farmers were hinting that they would set the fires by some deadline, hives moved or not, so the beekeepers pointed out that their loss of hives would reduce the taxes that could be paid to the king. ================================ So, 3000 years ago, beekeepers were moving their hives to specific crops for a specific bloom of a cover crop overtly planted by a grower. (Or for the weeds that grew in fields left fallow for a year, it is not clear what the specific strategy was in this case.) This was not mere seasonal movement, this was a hive placement so specific that they had to move their hives to avoid the collateral damage from the growers' attempts at pest control and fertilization. Funny how absolutely nothing has changed in all the years that have since passed since 300 BC, ain't it? 1) Growers still don't give a darn about us or our bees 2) Appeals to the government are useless, as they are clueless sissy boys and cityfolk who think that they literally own our asses. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:57:57 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Formic Acid reacting with plastic In-Reply-To: <48573FDC.5070907@tplrhoneyfarms.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Tim Townsend: Canada allows plastic in it's organic standard. Reply: I have come to the conclusion I see no problem with this with food grade plastic frames, but would like to clarify sizing is still important, and am very happy, more and more products like HSC and 4.9mm plastic is available, or close there to, in sizing, for beekeepers to be able to regress back down their honeybees body sizing for healthier bees. Pierco is in the 5.2mm range to me and would be nice if it would come down more closer to the middle of the size specturm in the natural world for more usage. For if HSC can do it, Pierco can too! It is good to read Canada allow plastic in it's organic standard and though USA federal laws have not been finalized, that I think should be in the USA federal laws also. Besides Canada and USA have for the most part always worked together pretty much and should continue. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:02:17 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Formic Acid reacting with plastic Comments: To: Peter Borst In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter Borst: Go back to the original post concerning formic acid and plastic in combination outgasing for problems. Plastic is neutral here. Yes the acids hurt, but not in combination with the plastic......... Now if you can find differently and the combination is hurting: PLEASE LET US KNOW!! that is the references I was looking for........ Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:39:23 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All Can't possibly compete with Jim's humour (ok then, humor) in that last post, but on transhumance, don't forget the bees' own version which has presumably been practised for millions of years (would that be transapisance?). Apis dorsata migrates seasonally in some places and non-seasonally but following flowering patterns in tropical forests in others, often over large distances. In the case of the giant honeybee presumably it is more stressful to stay put, than migrate in search of better conditions. all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:11:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Formic Acid reacting with plastic Comments: To: deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by twiese@FHSU.EDU to the BEE-L = list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously = posted material. Formic acid would react more with wood (not very much) than with plastic (probably not any measurable reaction). Formic acid chemically is a weak acid, making its reactivity lower than, for example, battery acid.=20 One component of wood is cellulose, and that has a type of chemical bond that will be attacked by acids. I have many holes in my jeans (cotton is also cellulose) from other acids but didn't notice any holes when I've splashed formic. The ester linkage of waxes will also be attacked by acids but since formic is a weak acid the attack will be small at best and I would expect the amount to be not noticeable. Sincerely, Dr. Thomas J. Wiese Professor of Chemistry 600 Park St. Fort Hays State University Hays, KS 67601 (785) 628-4505 E-mail: twiese@fhsu.edu **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:08:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DAVID ADAMS Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable In-Reply-To: <237035.97385.qm@web86206.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have to think that, to say that the bees need to stay home and be rested is just a cop out for not having an answer for the problem. Back in the 80's forward large commercial beekeepers sent bees from Florida to Cali without problems,and have been running to and fro from all over the USA back to Florida. The weather that time of the year ,for most of the trip out and back is not hot,and some loads only took 2 1/2 days ,not much more than going to Maine from Florida(one of my own loads).Something else started happening the fall of 2006 ,and it wasn't a trip to Cali from Flori. Almond pollen seems to make Florida bees look pretty nice . So I think we need to have that USDA reasearcher in the back room rethink the source of the problems,nothing has changed in decades about the way we move and ship bees ,the bee genes and health ,and maybe virus's have. Resting them at home will just let them die without having to move them as much,the beekeeper more rested ,and more broke. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:37:37 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Zen Mind Hive Mind Comments: To: bee-quick@BEE-QUICK.COM In-Reply-To: <000501c8d083$6b1ee860$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mr James Fischer: Pretty darn good for a brain the size of a pinhead, Reply: But relative to the size of a bee's head, still pretty big. So bees smell which they then use for determining work to be done is being inferred. But could this be tied in with the dancing/communicating, and/or other bees scouting by walking around and observing, and then letting the other bees in hive know what is needed via communication aka dancing again? But then what really is communication in a beehive? Seems much still needs to be researched and learned. But with dancing: is it all external based for foraging, or could it be internal needs for going and getting?....or combination thereof? Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:43:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Formic Acid reacting with plastic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/06/2008 11:14:54 GMT Standard Time, Tim@TPLRHONEYFARMS.COM writes: European Organic standards forbid the use of plastic Possibly they are considering the environmental pollution that is associated with the use of plastic throughout its lifespan, especially the beginning and the end. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 05:30:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Plastic vs wood for sustainability In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Slade wrote: > Possibly they are considering the environmental pollution that is associated > with the use of plastic throughout its lifespan, especially the beginning > and the end. The Canadians are probably more organic than the EU, since plastic traps carbon for as long as it is around while wood does not. Wood rots, burns and generally adds to CO2 compared to plastic. Just look at where all your old wooden frames go. If you look at the whole energy process to make either a plastic or wood frame, it is probably very close. The main cost for plastic is the mold for injection molding. But wood needs machines to mold frames. Material costs are different now but at one time plastic was much cheaper than wood. With the volatility of oil prices, it is probably more expensive. Plastic lasts longer for the beekeeper and is recyclable or dump it in a landfill and get some carbon credits for removing it from the carbon chain and trapping all that CO2. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:52:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Fischer wrote: >So, 3000 years ago, beekeepers were moving their hives >to specific crops for a specific bloom of a cover crop >overtly planted by a grower. This is an assumption on your part. There is nothing in your quoted material that should lead one to conclude that the Egyptian beekeepers were moving their hives to cover a specific crop. >This was not mere seasonal movement, this was a hive >placement so specific that they had to move their hives >to avoid the collateral damage I will say that you are in extreme error here. This WAS seasonal movement of hives. And I will provide supporting evidence. The bees were NOT in the farmland to cover specific blooms, and the donkeys were NOT needed to transport bees to cover a specific bloom either. Evidence shows that a seasonal movement of honeybee colonies in Ancient Egypt was required for the purpose of escaping the Nile flooding which came every year from June to September, caused by the heavy summer rains in the Ethiopian highlands. So this makes the movement of hives in Ancient Egypt seasonal OR ‘transhumance beekeeping’. You write: “The growers >were waiting impatiently for the beekeepers to move their >hives, as the growers wanted to burn the weeds and brush >and then flood the fields.” You provide an erroneous statement. Farmers in Ancient Egypt did not ‘purposely flood fields‘, evidence shows they had NO control over this. The Nile, or as the Egyptians believed the God Hapi, was in total control, and they had to get around on boats for much of the time during the flooding. Each year, farmers would burn the fields prior to the flooding season. To water their crops they had to have a canal connected to a river, and to lift the water from the canal you would have a shaduf (a shaduf is a large pole balanced on a crossbeam, a rope and bucket on one end and a heavy counter weight at the other). Again, flooding was NOT 'controled' by farmers. If they were burning the fields, would this not suggest that the growing season as well past? and the beekeepers, if they were migratory should have had their hives long since ‘migrated’ to the next specific bloom, perhaps a month prior? Evidence suggests, they were basically stationary beekeepers with seasonal movement of hives in and out of the low lying cropland to escape the Nile flooding. Intentional flooding of fields by farmers in Ancient Egypt; debunked. The theory that the movement of hives by the Ancient Egyptians is not seasonal OR ‘transhumance beekeeping’ ; also debunked. Best Wishes, Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:30:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Formic Acid reacting with plastic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris Slade wrote: >Possibly they are considering the environmental pollution that is associated >with the use of plastic throughout its lifespan, especially the beginning >and the end. As stated in my original message: > The focus is not just on product quality but also on sustaining bees' vitality and health as well as beekeeper's impact on the environment. On the other hand, how can anyone consider the raising of bees inside plastic combs to be natural? Or even producing honey in plastic combs? Having plastic foundation is one thing (thought the EU forbids even this), since the rest of the comb is natural beeswax. But a complete comb made of plastic? Who would want that? By the way, when burning hives to control foulbrood, plastic frames are a nightmare. A nightmare which pales in comparison with the thought of burning up entire Styrofoam hives. Does anyone know how to disinfect these? pb pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 10:41:58 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Plastic vs wood for sustainability Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Bill Truesdell wrote: >Plastic lasts longer for the beekeeper and is recyclable or dump it in a landfill and get some carbon credits for removing it from the carbon chain and trapping all that CO2. mmmm, i must admit i'm pretty skeptical of the whole carbon credit business in general. with that said, i'm not sure what you write above is making sense to me. in the case of plastic, that carbon is already trapped in the petroleum used to make the plastic (and has been for millions of years). i can almost see some logic in "trapping co2", but there is no trapping involved in making plastic, as it's already trapped (or am i wrong?). wrt wood, growing a tree and making something out of the wood does in fact "trap" carbon. both require energy to manufacture. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 04:14:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Honey Beats Wound Care Gel in Reducing MRSA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Honey Beats Wound Care Gel in Reducing MRSA Randomized Controlled Clinical Trial Shows Derma Sciences MEDIHONEY(TM) Eradicates MRSA from Chronic Venous Ulcers 70% Elimination of the Deadly Superbug Provides Hope for Global Caregivers http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/06/honey-beats-wound-care-gel-in-reducing.html PRINCETON, N.J., June 17 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Derma Sciences, a provider of advanced wound care products, announced today that its key product, MEDIHONEY(TM) Wound & Burn Dressing with Active Leptospermum Honey, has been found in a large randomized controlled clinical trial to significantly reduce the presence of methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) in chronic wounds. The finding was published in the June 2008 issue of The Journal of Wound Care… **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:16:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Plastic vs wood for sustainability MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Greetings If you know the history of beekeeping, you will know that comb foundation was developed in the 1800s. Pretty soon beekeepers noted its tendency to sag, producing a big row of drone cells along the top bar. Also, combs tended to blow out in the extractor. So, many methods were tried to reinforce the comb, including wires, paper, wood, aluminum, plastic, etc. Surely the most successful of these has been plastic. A comb based on hard plastic is very tough, won't sag, and won't blow out. Very old combs are pretty tough regardless of the reinforcement method and old time beekeepers always thought their store of combs was one of their greatest assets. Nothing quite equals a ready supply of supers with drawn combs as a management tool. Drawn combs reduce swarming and increase honey production. Bees enter and occupy drawn combs much more quickly than new boxes filled with foundation of any sort, but they seem especially un-attracted to plastic. Modern beekeepers have learned that the comb is a reservoir for toxins of all sorts. Many beekeepers are trying to eliminate older combs altogether. In fact, in a recent MAAREC publication they mention 6 Steps that can be taken to help minimize stress on honey bee colonies and to improve their chances for survival. Number 2 two: "Reduce pathogen and pesticide build-up in combs by regularly culling old comb, recycling comb and/or irradiation of old comb. This is particularly recommended for dead-out colonies." So, if one is going to embark on a plan of frequently replacing combs, then durability is less of a factor, and what is wanted is a cheap and easy replacement. Naturally, this would be plain old fashioned hand wired foundation made from uncontaminated capping wax. Where will you get this? I wager if there is a demand for it, bee supply companies will produce it. They acquire large quantities of capping wax and still make plain foundation. It is an easy product to use, and is very easy to remove from the wooden frames and replace. If one has shelled out a bunch of money on plastic, one is going to be very reluctant to replace it every couple of years. I am quite certain that combs built upon plastic foundations absorb just as much toxins as all natural ones. Further, there are many forms of plastic and while some of them are considered "inert" or even "food grade", it is widely known that many give off toxic vapors and also, absorb them. I wonder how many people, given a choice would rather live in an all wood house versus and all plastic one? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 07:48:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Formic Acid reacting with plastic In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >By the way, when burning hives to control foulbrood, plastic frames are a > nightmare. A nightmare which pales in comparison with the thought of > burning > up entire Styrofoam hives. Does anyone know how to disinfect these? My county has strict burning rules due to poor air quality. Burning of plastics is prohibited. The smoke from burning plastic frames is nasty when the fire doesn't get enough oxygen. According to research by Dr Mark Goodwin, AFB can be sterilized by a 20 minute soak in 0.5% sodium hypochlorite. By my calcs, that's roughly 1 part 6% ultra bleach to 10 parts water. I don't know about rinsing, but I'm sending him an email now to find out. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:28:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Formic Acid reacting with plastic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >My county has strict burning rules due to poor air quality. Burning of plastics is prohibited. So does New York State. But get this, agricultural enterprises are evidently exempted. So are bee inspectors controlling foulbrood, which is an agricultural use anyway. Farmers, or anyone claiming to be an ag enterprise, evidently can burn tires, garbage, any sort of junk but homeowners, factories, non-ag businesses cannot. I don't WANT to burn plastic in any case. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:29:29 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: 'Cleaning' Styrofoam MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I was glad to see Randy Oliver's comments concerning using ultra bleach (I personally always use Clorox brand) in a 6% solution for cleaning up AFB. Early in my work experience I was in the food industry and learned the fabulous disenfectant qualities of bleach. For years I have told hobbyists to use a 20% solution 'because it will kill all bacteria and fungus' on wood and two years ago I also advised using it on Styrofoam. In the latter instance the hive was 'rotten' with AFB, but there has not been any recurrence. AFAIK it is both real cheap and real effective. As far as rinsing is concerning...I have said 'lots', meaning 100X or more of the cleaning solution applied. A job for a hose, but with a hose it is real easy. I have never had any problems that seem to relate to a difficulty with contamination because of an inadequate rinse. I have some Styro top feeders that I have been known to soak in a bleach solution for 48 hours and after rinsing have not had any apparent problems with contamination. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:24:04 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe said: > This is an assumption on your part. There is nothing in > your quoted material that should lead one to conclude that > the Egyptian beekeepers were moving their hives to cover > a specific crop. Sure there is - they had moved their hives, and then had their donkeys conscripted for "public service" for 18 days. They complained that they had only agreed to the loan of the donkeys for 10 days. Therefore, this was a planned 10-day placement of the hives, no more. Clearly, the bees were being placed for a specific bloom. A bloom that was over in about 10 days. > I will say that you are in extreme error here. > This WAS seasonal movement of hives. > And I will provide supporting evidence. You'll need to obtain access to the originals, and do your own translation then, as I can only rely upon the translation done by Columbia U. But the short-term nature of the placement, combined with the threat by the growers to go ahead with THEIR plan of action clearly indicates that both beekeepers and growers had accepted a short-term placement of hives. And of course Egypt had the ability to flood fields with the usual ditch/dike irrigation methods for those fields not within the floodplain of a river. The mere fact that the beekeepers say that the GROWERS are planning to "flood their fields" clearly indicates that these are irrigated fields, rather than floodplain land. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 08:12:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Townsend Organization: TPLR Honey Farms Ltd. Subject: Re: Formic Acid reacting with plastic In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Slade wrote: > > In a message dated 17/06/2008 11:14:54 GMT Standard Time, > Tim@TPLRHONEYFARMS.COM writes: > > European Organic standards forbid the use of plastic > > > No, what I said was that plastic frames/foundation are approved under organic standards here in Canada. > Tim Townsend > > > > **************************************************** > * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * > * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * > **************************************************** > > > **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:39:26 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Reducing swarming (was Plastic vs wood for sustainability) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote > Drawn combs reduce swarming and increase honey production. Do you have a reference for this? Here in Australia, it is common for beekeepers to take combs from the brood chamber and replace them with foundation in the belief that it will reduce swarming. They do not use drawn combs as they believe that the need to draw the foundation out is a mechanism to reduce the swarming impulse. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:38:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: Formic Acid reacting with plastic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >According to research by Dr Mark Goodwin, AFB can be sterilized by a 20 >minute soak in 0.5% sodium hypochlorite. By my calcs, that's roughly 1 part >6% ultra bleach to 10 parts water. I don't know about rinsing, but I'm >sending him an email now to find out. Presumably that soak is after the wax and other material has been removed from the surface of the plastic frames, perhaps by pressure washing. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:50:11 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > James Fischer wrote: > “The growers > >were waiting impatiently for the beekeepers to move > their > >hives, as the growers wanted to burn the weeds and > brush > >and then flood the fields.” I wish to comment a bit further here due to new evidence again debunking your claim of these ancient beekeepers being migratory. That the growers were wanting to burn the weeds. This indicates the time of the season as during the dead time of year: * well past bloom*, * well past fruit set*, and * after harvest was complete*. I ask the migratory beekeepers out there. What migratory beekeeper would leave their hives in one place on a crop till well past bloom, fruit set, and harvest? Would you even be called a migratory beekeeper then? You hold this example as proof of these colonies in Ancient Egypt being migratory and on specific bloom. But these beekeepers having had their hives in the farm lands at that time year would indicate that they are NOT migratory. And perhaps, only needed to move hives out only due to the pending flooding of the Nile and burning of the fields at seasons end. A great example of transhumance beekeeping, and not suggestive of migratory as often defined today. Until archeologists un earth a diesel powered barge from the tombs of Egypt, I’m afraid there is little comparison between Ancient Egypt’s beekeepers and their donkeys to today’s migratory beekeepers and their 600 horsepower Mac Trucks. ;) Keep on Truckin’ Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:38:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Fischer wrote: >Sure there is - they had moved their hives, and then had >their donkeys conscripted for "public service" for 18 days. >They complained that they had only agreed to the loan of >the donkeys for 10 days. Therefore, this was a planned >10-day placement of the hives, no more. > >Clearly, the bees were being placed for a specific bloom. >A bloom that was over in about 10 days. Hello Jim, OK I got it! You say: <>, a total of <<18 days have passed>>, and the farmers <> What crop goes from bloom to fruit set and harvest in 18 days? Tell us WHY they would burn the fields in 18 days, after the bloom and before fruit set or harvest? And then intentionally flood your crop? Where they growing rice? ;) Theres too many holes in your argument, and the evidence is not supporting what you say! It would make more sense that the hives were brought in for bloom, months earlier, left for the entire season, and now the donkeys are needed to take them out before the Nile flooding and burning at the <>, the end of the season. Also, concerning the article, I believe the article and those here have perhaps interpreted the situation wrongly. As politics goes, Many here are damning the growers for threatening the burn the hives. I see it differently. I would offer up the logical explanation that the growers where actually on the side of, and in support the beekeepers. And both were bluffing a threat to the government of burning, flooding and loss of taxes in order that the donkeys be returned promptly before the Nile flooding. You have *beekeepers, *growers, and the *government. Only 2 of the above would make the more logical allies. ;) If a grower is not your friend, then you have your hives on the wrong property! Why do you make the growers the enemy in this case, when clearly they were on the side of the beekeepers. Don’t you guys know politics works! ;) The mere fact that the beekeepers >say that the GROWERS are planning to "flood their fields" >clearly indicates that these are irrigated fields, rather than >floodplain land. You need to produce some evidence supporting that is was ‘planned flooding’, because you need to show that you are presenting the evidence in its original context. In either event, that you say bloom time to burn time was 18 days, this MUST be in error, therefore reason to suspect ALL you evidence may be in error. Back to the drawing board. ;) Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:37:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Formic Acid reacting with plastic In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > >Presumably that soak is after the wax and other material has > been removed from the surface of the plastic frames, perhaps by > pressure washing. The test was done on a suspension of spores, so the results may not be able to be extrapolated to combs. However, note that bees leave the cocoon in the cell wall after each generation of larvae. It appears to me that this is likely a colony-level behavioral hygienic method to entomb spores and toxins behind the silk/meconium/propolis barrier. It has been found to be effective at preventing miticides in the wax from killing varroa. What this would mean is that the hypochlorite may need to only penetrate the surface layer to be effective, depending upon how much actual wax reworking takes place after bleaching. I just tossed an AFB demo comb. When I find another, I could perform a test. For that matter, anyone on the List with an AFB comb and a bottle of bleach could do the same! Bleach it, and then put it into a nonhygienic colony, and observe if larvae get sick. Anyone up for it? Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 23:24:53 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Bees in a storm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > He wondered if that was the bee's way of staying safe > until the storm passed. Any thoughts? Anecdotes in this area of inquiry tend to describe a propensity for foraging bees to return to the hive en masse just before a major storm, and give the impression that a beehive is a barometer of sorts. If this were even half as true as claimed buy some, no bees would ever have to "wait out a storm", as they'd all detect the drop in air pressure (or whatever) and head home to the hive. Bees will rest on or in a bloom during their foraging sorties, as flying against a headwind can be exhausting. If caught by the rain, the bee certainly will stay put, as wet wings can't get a bee airborne. Sometimes, bees are caught by sundown, and are forced to spend the night in a bloom. I've seen bumblebees and carpenter bees resting in blossoms much more often than honey bees before or at dawn. In my personal experience, which includes many cases where unexpected rain caused an abrupt end to what was to be a full day's work in the yards, I've never gotten the impression that the bees were aware of coming storms. If you want a good severe weather detector, you need a Corgi. Corgis seem to have universal knack for it, and are also natural herding dogs, so the whole family is yapped at, nipped at, and harassed into the basement rec room whenever serious storms approach. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 06:51:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Plastic vs wood for sustainability In-Reply-To: <20080618.064158.21880.0@webmail13.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit deknow@netzero.com wrote: > mmmm, i must admit i'm pretty skeptical of the whole carbon credit business in general. Me too. It is Enron x 10 My post was a bit tongue in cheek. We get a bit carried away with the whole issue of what constitutes organic, as shown on many threads on this list. It is a bit amusing that the EU considers plastic verboten and we have others in the US and Canada, approving its use. Expediency tends to trump purity. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:20:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable-or transhumance beekeeping In-Reply-To: <905854.72276.qm@web56412.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love the BeeL. Conjecture reigns. Jim was making a point that bees were moved from place to place and had documentation to back it up. So the argument is with the documentation, and it seems fairly straightforward. The argument seems to be with the Egyptians and their farming and beekeeping practices as reported by them. The only way to resolve this was clear to me, so I discussed this with the Great Carnack who channeled with the Egyptian beekeepers and they affirmed Jim was right, and to quit disparaging their practices since all beekeeping is local. Plus, they are still angry with the growers about their pollination fees. Bill Truesdell (who lives in the Twilight Zone, otherwise known as Maine- the home of Steven King.) Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:24:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Dispute Over Medicinal Honey Ads Heats Up in New Zealand Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Manuka Honey Complaint Upheld NZPA, 6/19/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/06/dispute-over-medicinal-honey-ads-heats.html A continuing row about objective measurement of a chemical compound used to define the efficacy of manuka honey for medicinal purposes has spilled over into advertisements run in community newspapers… **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:33:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Faster, Simpler Method of Quality Control for Royal Jelly Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Faster, Simpler Method of Quality Control for Royal Jelly Refractometric Determination of Water Content in Royal Jelly Apidologie, 39 (2008) 225-232 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/06/faster-simpler-method-of-quality.html Abstract - A correlation was found between the measured refraction index of royal jelly and its water content as determined by vacuum oven drying… **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 08:26:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All this talk of migrating bees in Egypt and no one mentioned the use of the Nile to move bees up and back. They did do this you know. Dick Marron **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:23:52 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have gone far "afield" in this discussion. :) Regardless of Joe's arguments, placements of hives for mere days, rather than weeks or months, is a clear indication of purposeful hive placements for a specific bloom rather than mere "seasonal movement" from "high to low ground". Joe quoted Eva Crane: > Up until the late 1800's and early 1900's the movement > of hives by beekeepers could be more accurately defined > as 'transhumance beekeeping'; vertical seasonal bee hive > movement, typically to higher pastures in summer and to > lower valleys in winter, or movement to extend the honey > producing season or to new sources of forage. Well, I've been to Egypt many times, and there's not a whole lot of "elevation" to be had there. The highest point in the whole country is like 2,500 feet above sea level, which delays spring by a week or so versus the valley areas, not that anything much is gonna grow at elevation in Egypt. There is a North/South component to seasons, as Egypt is about 700 miles long in a north/south direction, which buys you about a month in terms of bloom delay due to latitude, hence the whole "bees on a barge" scheme I mentioned as perhaps the smoothest ride bees could ever get. Joe confused the use of burning and flooding between crops and wildflowers or weeds. Not surprising, as he's never farmed or trucked bees around. If one wants a field to lie fallow, one wants to burn BEFORE the weed plants go to seed, so as to not have those weeds in next year's crop. So, very quickly after bloom, one wants to burn the fallow field, and keeping it flooded for a while after that would also tend to kill any later-sprouting weeds. If your burn before or during bloom, some plants will re-bloom. So, migratory beekeeping in 300BC is well-documented by the papers cited, and anyone who knows even a little farming and migratory beekeeping can see that the evidence provided is unambiguous and clear. I admit that traveling in the 3rd world helps one to be more familiar with the whole "burn and flood" tactic, but one need go no further than Central Florida to see it in practice in the cane fields. Go west from Ft. Lauderdale on State Road 84 past the Weston development, and take Route 27 North to Belle Glade, and you'll see for yourself. The smoke from the burns made the road a death trap for drivers back in the 1970s and 80s. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:58:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, To those migratory beeks outside of California almond pollination is simply one stop of many. However in many ways almonds present the most challenge. Almond problems : The hives are needed at a time when most hives are in their winter posture( no dinks and only your best hives were sent in the old days). In the old days these hives supplied all the pollination requirements ( in fact many still enter almond pollination from winter cluster) without serious issues. Bumper crops in many years. The rush for the gold in California (Last few seasons of high fees) changed the scenario. Hives headed by poor genetics were loaded up and hauled to California to try and make grade. Combining as recommended by brokers to out of state beekeepers ( rejected by us as economically unsound) only helped keep inferior genetics in an operation. You might combine three hive together and get a pollination fee but you could end up with a "dink" queen hive ( poor genetics) and any way you look at it you had trucking for 3 hives involved and had 2 ( maybe 3) hives needing a package or nuc when returned to the Midwest. >From the start of out of state almond pollination those hives were depopulated. In the old days the Adee's depopulated between 50-75% of their hives at seasons end before spring Mississippi split.. In Texas in spring a few beekeepers shake dink colonies into large bulk bee boxes and then kill with soapy water. Making splits from bees with poor genetics and health issues does not make sense.The method has produced super strong hives. They also raise all their own queens. Not that they want to but they produce far better ( in their opinion) queens than they can buy. They control the genetics and the production queen selection process. Little has been said about genetics and CCD but genetics in many of our opinions is a serious problem in certain commercial outfits/ queen producers operations. There are many plus points about almond pollination which I point out in my ABJ article on *the pros and cons of almond pollination from a Midwest beekeeper perspective*published in the April 2005 American Bee Journal (Vol.145 no.4). The second largest commercial beekeeper in the U.S. ( which has sent as many as 20 semi loads into almonds) said at the time the article was the best and most accurate article on out of state almond pollination he had read and my best article to date. Sincerely, Bob Harrison **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:45:03 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Almond pollination In-Reply-To: <000001c8d207$b541c6d0$1fc55470$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Marron wrote: > All this talk of migrating bees in Egypt and no one > mentioned the use of the > Nile to move bees up and back. They did do this you know. Yes, a good point. I knew this, however it was not essential for my discussion. Plus you don’t what to give your opponent any more ammo. ;) This from an article around 1890 or so: “Thousands' of barges freighted with hives were floated up and down the Nile in order to afford the insects pasture on the flowers along the banks.” Although this movement up and down the Nile of thousands of barges would IMO be considered migratory, the reasons for migrating hives have changed: “…through the centuries, most migration was undertaken to get an extra crop of honey.” Eva Crane and “Later, hives of bees were increasingly migrated to crops to pollinate them” Eva Crane Take out the pollination fees, and are there any migratory beekeepers that could remain in business as the beekeepers of Egypt must have done without the fees. Best Wishes, Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:22:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Reducing swarming (was Plastic vs wood for sustainability) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:39:26 +1000, queenbee wrote: >Peter wrote > >> Drawn combs reduce swarming and increase honey production. > >Do you have a reference for this? Here in Australia, it is common for >beekeepers to take combs from the brood chamber and replace them with >foundation in the belief that it will reduce swarming. They do not use >drawn combs as they believe that the need to draw the foundation out is a >mechanism to reduce the swarming impulse. Well, I know better than to argue with an Australian beekeeper. However, I am speaking from personal experience here. One of the first beekeepers I worked for, back in the mid 1970s, was a very old timer named Forrest Thomas, of Vista, CA. He was one of a kind; if he lives, may he prosper. If not, may he rest in peace. Anyway, I was a youngster and I asked him point blank: "How do you control swarming." He sort of smiled in his way, and said, "We don't." By that, he meant of course, that he didn't believe in cutting queen cells and all that. But he had thousands of drawn combs and he gave plenty of room. All deeps, no excluders. This was the usual way of keeping bees in California back then. When I got my own bees, I did the same thing. I "learned" that if the bees have plenty of room and a good honey flow, they aren't too likely to swarm. If the hive gets plugged, or if they get shut in by bad weather, they start preparing to swarm. I am not much for getting combs drawn in the brood nest. I like to put three new ones in a super of drawn combs. If the flow is good they draw it right away. If it isn't, better to wait until it is to give foundation pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:59:29 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Fischer wrote: >Well, I've been to Egypt many times, and there's not a whole >lot of "elevation" to be had there. The highest point in the >whole country is like 2,500 feet above sea level, Again you are ignoring the entire quote as you typically do. Here is the ‘OR’ that you missed: “or movement to extend the honey producing season or to new sources of forage.” >Joe confused the use of burning and flooding between crops and >wildflowers or weeds. Not surprising, as he's never farmed or >trucked bees around. You haven’t answered my question. What crop matures in 18 days? And please do tell us your experience farming or trucking bees around that you can speak with such high authority on the matter? Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:22:27 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Plastic vs wood for sustainability In-Reply-To: <485A3A3E.2030009@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bill Truesdell: It is a bit amusing > that the EU considers plastic verboten and we have > others in the US and Canada, approving its use. Expediency > tends to trump purity. Reply: Perhaps it should be a list of what honeybees naturally have been found and documented to swarm into for setting up housekeeping then. For what works for them, then should work for us. Or perhaps, it should be a list of what honeybees have been known to have been kept in throughout history for what should be allowed for usage in and around them. Of course being organic then with zero treatments too, for full organic, with no artificial feeding once first new hive started up. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:28:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable In-Reply-To: <000001c8d239$a0986590$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >Joe confused the use of burning and flooding between crops and > wildflowers or weeds. I sure didn't detect any confusion. Seemed more like pointing out inconsistencies in a long stretch. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:12:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Bees in a storm In-Reply-To: <000101c8d1bc$0ad18820$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I've often wondered about finding chilled, dew-covered bees in flowers in the morning. In my area, they are very commonly found in Grindelia. When I've checked back later in the day, they were gone. Perhaps they were older bees that simply couldn't get their flight muscles warmed up due to the dropping temperature. My surprise is if they survived the nightime chill, and later were able to fly again. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:30:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Lord Subject: Honey house suggestions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I need to build a new small honey house this fall/winter. I run = approximately 250 colonies, and I want this to be my LAST honey house. = I am particulalry interested in getting advice on floor matreials and = finishes, wall materials and finishes, floor drains, unloading = doors/platforms, and ventilation to cool yet exclude and/or remove bees. = This will primarily be a DIY project,but I have a lot of experience = building and renovating houses. I do not need a hot room. We just = finished extracting in 100 degree heat and the honey really flows in = those conditions. I want it bee-tight, beetle proof (as possible), and = easy to clean. My preliminary thoughts are to build on a concrete slab with partial = concrete block walls (2-3 feet)for washing and sanitation), capped with = either stud walls and truss roof or metal walls and roof. Let me know what you think, Bill Lord Louisburg, NC **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 04:33:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Royal Jelly Helps Treat Oral Mucositis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Royal Jelly Helps Treat Oral Mucositis Topical Application of Royal Jelly has a Healing Effect for 5-Fluorouracil-Induced Experimental Oral Mucositis in Hamsters Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol 2008, 30(2): 103 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/06/royal-jelly-helps-treat-oral-mucositis.html The aim of this study was to evaluate the effects of bee products such as honey, royal jelly and propolis on 5-fluorouracil-induced experimental oral mucositis in hamsters… **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:54:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Lord Subject: EU Organic observations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just finished up a development project n Romania in which we helped = certify around 400 small (100-200 hive) beekeepers and get their = processing operations in compliance with EU food safety requirements. I = won't bore you with all the gory details, but I can say there is a bit = of a double standard in the realm of EU organic beekeeping. The EU = newbies are being held to the very letter of all the organic = regulations, and they are tough. One particular tour we took our = Romanian clients on was to southern France to see organic beekeeping = operations. Frequently, while the Romanians were getting the = long-winded introduction from the host (and translation) I would wander = around the honey house or better yet take a look around behind the honey = house to see what was really going on. Let me just say that all that is = 'organic' is not 'certified'. I saw a lot of oil based paint in use, = hive preservatives, non-certified wax, etc. Was I surprised? No. Was = all honey being run for residue analysis? No. Were the French = following the 'spirit' of the organic certification? Yes, but with some = fudging. What impressed me most was the intensity of French commercial = agriculture, from the bottle green weed-free wheat fields to the heavily = pruned, heavily fertilized home gardens. Almost all the beekeepers we = met told us that heavy ag and home pestidice use (and weed/honey plant = eradication)was their number one problem. The beekeepers I met were = going organic to make a point with the rest of the ag community that = maybe they were on the right, and sustainable track. The Romanians were lucky. They have reverted to a small-farm, mostly = organic agriculture and most of the communist era heavy industry is = dead, so they have a near-organic environment in which to keep bees. = They are getting about a 30% premium for their certified organic honey = and it is passing all (German lab) residue tests. Just some = observations. Bill Lord **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:47:02 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe asked yet again: > What crop matures in 18 days? Weeds. As I explained, one wants to burn weeds before they go to seed. It was jumping to conclusions for you to presume that the growers were burning an active field. Clearly, they were burning a fallow field. There is no other scenario where a burn would be done so close to a bloom. So, the weeds in the fallow fields were the nectar source of interest to the beekeepers. > And please do tell us your experience farming I will, and challenge you to do the same. But you won't, will you? I grew 550 acres of top-grade horse hay for more than 15 years, or, if rain came 'tween cut and bailing, top-grade cow hay. Two years out of three, I was lucky, and had horse hay to sell. I also had a quarter-acre each of blackberries and raspberries, several acres of heirloom apples, and a kick-ass little veggie garden. Wanns see the state fair ribbons? > or trucking bees around Over 15 years of doing apples along the blue ridge of VA. Not as glamorous as Almonds, but it does include lots of entertainingly steep gravel roads. > that you can speak with such high authority on the matter? Well, lets see... farming paid off the farm in less than a decade, so I must have been doing something right. :) Randy chimed in: > I sure didn't detect any confusion. Seemed more like > pointing out inconsistencies in a long stretch. I can understand your problem - living in California means that you've never seen a field burn, except when the several thousand acres around the field were also burning. But don't argue with me, argue with the translator of the document I merely quoted. Or, argue with Bill Truesdell, over here: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0806c&L=bee-l&T=0&P=612 7 So, to summarize - beekeeping is sustainable. So is almond pollination. Anyone who uses the term "sustainability" has an agenda that involves telling you and I how we "should" keep bees, most often involving practices that won't scale up beyond a few dozen hives, or mystical magical approaches that have yet to be verified by any sort of controlled study. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:32:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Honey house suggestions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill & all, When I constructed a honey house, I used 1/4" thick, 4X8 foot sheets of PVC board. You can screw these boards to the studs with 1" Stainless screws. At the seams, just cut some boards in 2" wide strips and get a bunch of PVC glue and primer and glue the 2" strips over the joints. For the shoe moulding, just cut 3" wide strips and glue these to the PVC board at the floor. If you glue the strips correctly, all seams will be water proof. Caulk the joint between the floor and 3" shoe moulding with silicone paintable caulk. Be sure to clean the PVC before caulking since the caulk will not stick to PVC as is. Then paint the floor with Sherwin-Williams 2 part epoxy. 2 gallons of epoxy will cover about 125 square feet of floor. This epoxy is food grade because of the toughness and hardness. I used this PVC board for the ceiling also. Lionel North Alabama **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:37:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: What happens to okl frames? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just curious from reading about who pressure washes frames to clean them up for re-use. What do you do with old frames? I have been buying or making new frames but have many that can probably be re-cycled and used again, but don't want to re-introduce any critters to the colonies. At my scale, it is no big deal to continue new, but am curious as to what others do, especially re-use and what is done to clean them up. BTW, they make exceptional fire starters in my wood stove. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:01:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable- burning fields In-Reply-To: <000201c8d2e4$80c2b6c0$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is still burning going on especially with berry fields, to control weeds. Blueberries here in Maine are classic, since the fields are burned even with the plants in place, to get rid of weeds. Sure beats spraying herbicides. So, yes, fields can be burned with the crop in place. One great farmer's tool is a cross between a hand torch and flamethrower used to burn weeds. If you want one... http://www.flameengineering.com/Red_Dragon_Propane_Torch_K.html Now this post can truly be said to add to the flame wars. Bill Truesdell (This poster is qualified to speak on the subjects noted- worked for a commercial farmer (volunteer when his son was away) for five years (corn, beans, peas, strawberries, cabbage, rutabaga, and parsnips). Know many blueberries growers and have blueberries on my and adjoining fields. Also worked on the blueberry fields as an observer of the inspection of commercial pollination colonies. Is often mistaken for Cary Grant. But, then, Cary Grant is dead so who knows what he looks like now. Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:44:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Looking for a host family for a German boy interested in Bee keeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This came to me in a circuitous route.... ________________________________ Hi=20 My name is Rod I'm the Calif Regional manager for Pacific Intercultural = Exchange (PIE)=20 We are a non profit organization looking for volunteer host families to = host 15 - 18 year old students from all around the world, they attend = the local High School and are here for the entire academic school year. We have a boy from Germany (Robin) who is interested and has been = involved with a Bee keeping club in Germany. I thought it would be nice = if we could find a host family that is also involved with bee keeping. If you know anyone that might be interested in getting more info please = give me a call.=20 Please see Robin's picture and profile on the cover sheet link above.=20 Rod W. Cowles=20 Regional Manager=20 FLEX Records Administrator=20 Pacific Intercultural Exchange=20 Toll Free 1-866-630-9857=20 Cell 1-619-807-5424=20 Fax 1-619-265-7323=20 e-mail rod@pieusa.org=20 web site www.pieusa.org=20 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:47:53 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Subject Lines on Bee-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a request for all posters to Bee-L to not use Subject lines as a quick Rely To shortcut. Subject lines are meant to help organize information, and on a list server these help to produce threads of related conversation, topics. But many posters to Bee-L just hit reply regardless of the subject. The result is that the comment often has nothing to do with the subject line. Now, I'm sure some will argue that they want to read everything. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to read every e-mail, I get up to 500 a day. Each morning, I sort and delete big blocks of e-mails. With respect to Bee-L, I delete all e-mails about subjects that have little or no interest to me, or that are simply rehashing the same old issues. But sometimes I look at one or two before deleting and find things that are of interest, but which have no connection to the subject line topic. Please read the subject line before sending a comment. If your comment is not relative to the subject, start a new subject line. It only takes a moment. Thanks Jerry **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:52:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable- burning fields Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >There is still burning going on especially with berry fields, to control weeds. Blueberries here in Maine are >classic, since the fields are burned even with the plants in place, to get rid of weeds. Sure beats spraying >herbicides. So, yes, fields can be burned with the crop in place. Years ago, when I picked wild blueberries for pay, the burning was done in the off season every third year and I believe it eliminated all the above-ground parts of the blueberry plants (and all other plants too). I suspect the fields were mowed first to cut down saplings of fast-growing trees. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************