From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:06:57 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.1 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECCED48988 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y6o017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0807B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 179648 Lines: 3856 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:10:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: main account Subject: Re: colony collapse, viruses and microbes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ramona wondered: ' if the waxy coating on the bees is deteriorated by acids (formic/oxalic) thus providing a way in for pathogens and/or a way out for moisture, compromising the bees'. Dribbling oxalic acid is said to leave the bees coated with a fine powder so abrasive that it wears away the mouthparts of varroa mites. The UK National Bee Unit says that some types of virus are transmitted in winter when the closely clustered bees rub off body hairs from each other, and virus enters the wound. So it must be possible that oxalic acid could REDUCE transmission by mites but INCREASE transmission through wounds. Robin Dartington **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 07:22:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: seemingly unrelated behavioral differences, pleiotropic effects MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Heritable personality traits have been widely recognized in human behavioral sciences and in animal husbandry, but only recently is it recognized that such traits are probably ubiquitous in animals and behavioral correlations are important for understanding animal behavior. As many behavioral traits have a considerable genetic basis, it is important to study how far these behavioral syndromes are caused by direct genetic correlation, i.e., whether natural variation in a suite of behavioral phenotypes can be traced back to variability in the same genes. The foraging behavior of honeybee workers seems to comprise such a suite of correlated behavioral phenotypes. After initiation of foraging in their second to third week of life, workers make several decisions on each foraging trip by integrating their own behavioral and physiological status, social colony stimuli, and the external environment. Selection for high pollen hoarding coincided with workers specializing more in pollen collection, workers collecting heavier pollen loads, performing more recruitment for pollen resources, and collecting nectar of lower concentration. However, a suite of seemingly unrelated behavioral differences between the selection strains has also been demonstrated: high pollen-hoarding bees mature faster to become foragers, they have higher locomotory activity upon emergence, and they perform better at various learning tasks. [The] data present overwhelming evidence for pleiotropic effects of previously identified quantitative trait loci for foraging behavior and epistatic interactions among them -- The Genetic Architecture of Sucrose Responsiveness in the Honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) Olav Rueppell, et al **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 07:23:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: mid and late summer treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The ectoparasitic mite Varroa destructor is the most destructive pest of the honey bee, Apis mellifera, in Europe and the United States. In temperate zones, the main losses of colonies from the mites occur during colony overwintering. To obtain a deeper knowledge of this phenomenon, we studied the mites' impact on the vitellogenin titer, the total protein stores in the hemolymph, the hemocyte characteristics, and the ecdysteroid titer of adult honey bees. These physiological characteristics are indicators of long-time survival and endocrine function, and we show that they change if bees have been infested by mites during the pupal stage. Compared with noninfested workers, adult bees infested as pupae do not fully develop physiological features typical of long-lived wintering bees. Management procedures designed to kill V. destructor in late autumn may thus fail to prevent losses of colonies because many of the adult bees are no longer able to survive until spring. Beekeepers in temperate climates should therefore combine late autumn management strategies with treatment protocols that keep the mite population at low levels before and during the period when the winter bees emerge. Findings suggest that treatments with chemicals or organic acids intended exclusively to kill V. destructor mites in late autumn may fail to prevent losses of colonies because the physiology of the bees has already been impaired. Beekeepers in temperate climates should therefore combine late autumn management strategies with mid and late summer treatment protocols to keep the mite population at low levels before and during the period when the winter bees emerge. -- Altered Physiology in Worker Honey Bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Infested with the Mite Varroa destructor (Acari: Varroidae): A Factor in Colony Loss During Overwintering? GRO V. AMDAM **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 07:24:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: ethyl oleate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Leoncini et al. (2004) showed that the number of foragers in a colony is regulated by a pheromone, ethyl oleate, produced by existing foragers and spread to preforagers via trophallaxis. If there are sufficient foragers in a colony, the production of ethyl oleate is high, and the transition to foraging in younger workers is delayed. If there are insufficient foragers the production of ethyl oleate in the colony is reduced, and this increases the rate at which younger workers make the transition to foraging. "If the older ones don't keep them in check, the young ones can mature too quickly," Huang said. "It's kind of the same thing as with people, you need the elders to check on the young, even if the young are physically able to go out on their own, it's not the best situation for anybody and now we know how it works." Huang said the system makes sense for the health of the hive. Young bees – those in the first two to three weeks of life – are biologically better suited for brood care, thanks to some boosted blood protein. Bees forced out too early aren't great navigators, and since foraging is dangerous, they risk dying before their time. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 04:38:59 -0700 Reply-To: mws1112004@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: DWV not transferred by varroa mites? In-Reply-To: <004801c8e07f$037ab160$4001a8c0@Bees> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii One method of combating this avenue of infection is the use of hygenic bees which pull the larvae that have breeding mites within the cell, thus ejecting the infected larvae and accompanying mites. Mike in LA --- On Mon, 7/7/08, main account wrote: 'Instead, the infection has been found only inside > the gut of the varroa, suggesting that the mite > has merely eaten it from the bodies of infected larvae ... suggests the virus comes out of the mite the other way - in the feces. Might the mites then defecate into the brood food, so that the larvae eats virus and becomes infected? Perhaps that transmission mechanism explains why bees emerging from cells entered by more than one varroa show shriveled wings - their food was doubly contaminated. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:12:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: What infective agent could cause foragers to not return to hives? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > What infective agent could cause foragers to not return to hives? I have been writing about this for months. Fifty years ago, Bailey showed that sacbrood virus in the brains of bees can cause premature foraging. Jasna Kralj wrote in the ABJ about the "suicide hypothesis" which posits sick bees may deliberately fly off and not return, or at the very least -- engage in risky behavior. Pesticides can cause bees to become disoriented but the researchers have repeatedly placed this factor at the bottom of the list. It is much more plausible (to me, anyway) that an accumulation of toxins, chiefly viral, in the brains of the bees is triggering an early shift to foraging behavior, and possibly combined with neurological damage, their foraging period (which is short in any case) is drastically reduced. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:54:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Apiacta Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Juanse pointed out that I neglected to provide a link to the Apiacta reprints: http://es.beekeeping.wikia.com/wiki/Apiacta_trabajos_digitales pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:24:36 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: DWV not transferred by varroa mites? Comments: cc: deealusby1@aol.com In-Reply-To: <004801c8e07f$037ab160$4001a8c0@Bees> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Even the research found virus particles were concentrated in the gut of the mite, and could not be passed back to the mouthparts because of a membrane in the throat, it was also said, suggesting that the mite has merely eaten it from the bodies of bees already infected'. This would then put it in the mouth parts by way of actually eating and while eating puncturing the soft exoskelton or thin membrains of the soft tissue between the tergits, for vectoring in the problem. And to again note what Barry Donovan brought up on mites prior and prior seeings in old research papers. Along with the three species then seen by point of infestation broken out so far back then, besides the nosema was also DWV too! So this is not new history being made, but old being repeated even in sampling done by USDA labs back in 1960 era, prior to mites being formally announced and recognized as a problem. But they were more in check then too, please note!!! Seems to me the only thing physically changed in a hive to set things off, was another major upsizing of comb size, this time to 5.4mm sizing that shortly followed to hit the market, and then problems phased in as the size caught on, and more used and enough volume was made in the field in all states, to then really get things moving. But just my take on things. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:50:23 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: What infective agent could cause foragers to not return to hives? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> What infective agent could cause foragers to not return to hives? And the data shows that it is not just foragers in the case of CCD. House bees also are leaving never to return, which results in greatly reduced numbers over a short period, sometimes far fewer than required to support the brood one finds, proving just how quickly the population was depleted. While it is plausible that massive forager losses could prompt immature bees to take up foraging, this would be detectable through reduced stores of fresh nectar and pollen when the population is clearly depleted. So we can conclude that more than foragers are leaving, never to return. The implication here is that foragers (or robbers) are bringing one or more pathogens into the hive, as the spread is pathogen-like, and the symptoms are very unlike pesticide kills, where some bees survive, but show symptoms of pesticide exposure, such as the classic "shakes" associated with many of the neonicitinoids. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:14:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 4 Jul 2008 to 5 Jul 2008 (#2008-183) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Barry Donovan wrote: >Is anyone looking for prions in bees? > We do know that insects are particularly rich host sources for Spiroplasmas. Some insect derived Spiroplasmas double as insect pathogens as well. Two Spiroplasma species, S. melliferum and S. apis are highly pathogenic to honey bees. These species cross the insect gut barrier and reach the insect hemolymph, where they multiply abundantly and eventually kill the bee, seriously degrading beehive populations, thereby adding a commercial research impetus. > The distinct similarity between TSE (Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies) and insect derived Spiroplasma neuronal infection, plus the independent and reproducing nature of the TSE agent within the documented insects, demands that additional TSE-oriented Spiroplasma insect-vector investigations and concordant vertebrate impact research must be conducted. "Chronic Wasting Disease: A working hypothesis, the Agent and its Transmission R.A. Forrest **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:34:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Small Cell Size Myth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Excerpts from an article on foundation in the South African Bee Journal, dated May/June 1967: > What a blessing to beekeepers the invention of foundation in 1857 by Mehring. ... But it was not until 1875 that A. I. Root produced a machine to roll out was quickly enough and with cells perfect enough to be of commercial value. > It had one fault: the cells were too small, there being 5 to an inch. Though the bees used it, they preferred their natural comb. Mr. Root then measured the cells, and found there were 4.83 to the inch. These particulars refer to the Italian bee. > Our African bee is slightly smaller, 5.2 cells making up one inch. So the rolling of comb foundation becomes a highly specialised job, where all conditions must be perfect. > Forty years ago, the only place in South Africa where wax foundation was produced, was at Marianhill Monastery. * * * For the math challenged, 4.83 cells to an inch equals a cell size of 5.23 mm 5.2 cells per inch is 4.88 mm 5 cells to the inch, which is wrong for both sub species, is 5.08 mm These are the facts, which confirm what I wrote in the July ABJ, debunking the small cell size myth (ie., that European bees "used to have" smaller cells than they do now). Furthermore, as I stated in my article, little cells did not prevent South African bees from being ravaged by varroa, and the African bees resurged due to natural selection of mite resistant bees. -- Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 16:43:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Chalk Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do you use mesh floors? I had a strain with a little, and as soon as I put them on these, it disappeared. Of course, I have a rather damp climate, and fungi thrive in the damp. Putting hives in a shaded position can also encourage it. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:22:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >4.83 cells to an inch equals a cell size of 5.23 mm New calculator batterys needed? 25.4/4.83 = 5.2588 ~ 5.26 Little sign of ccd, lots of swarms (from apropriatly sized hives) Attributed to formic dave **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:51:24 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A few things to think about the article below: 1. "worker - comb measures very nearly 5 cells to the inch" and "true worker - comb generally contained five cells within the space of an inch" means that the size of worker comb is measured by the author as smaller than 5.08. 2. The last paragraph _seems_ to say that there was a push in 1888 to make the bees larger, that the author didn't think it possible simply by increasing foundation size...unless breeding were also brought into it. That the biggest problem was the propensity of larger bees to make too many drones, and that the use of all worker foundation overcame this hurdle, opening up the possibility to make the bees bigger. I dictated and typed this right out of the original volume. deknow The ABC of Bee Culture A Cyclopaeoia of Every Thing Pertaining to the Care of the Honey Bee; Bees, Honey, Hives, Implements, Honey-Plants, Etc., PAGES GLEANED FROM THE EXPERIENCE OF THOUSANDS OF BEE KEEPERS ALL OVER OUR LAND And Afterward Verified by Practical Work in Our Own Apiary. BY A. I. ROOT. MEDINA, OHIO: 1888 Under: HONEY-COMB Pages: 163-164 DIFFERENT KINDS OF CELLS IN THE HONEY - COMB The bees build two distinct, regular sizes - drone and workers cells. The worker - comb measures very nearly 5 cells to the inch, on average. Some specimens average a little larger, and some little smaller; but when the comb is that all irregular, it is quite apt to be a little larger. That's specimens of true worker - comb generally contained five cells within the space of an inch, and therefore this measure has been adopted for the comb foundation. If there are five cells to the inch, a square inch would give, on average, about 25 cells, and 25 on the opposite side would make 50 young bees that would be hatched from every square inch of solid brood. As foundation is so much more regular than natural comb, we get a great many more bees and a given surface of comb, and here, at least, we can fairly claim that we have improved on nature. The drone - comb measures just about 4 cells to the inch, but to be seen less particular about the size of it then with the worker. They very often seem to make the cells of such size as to best fill out a given space; and we, accordingly, find them of all sizes, from workers size all the way up to considerably larger than 1/4 of an inch in width. Drones are raised in these extra-large cells without trouble, and Honey is also stored in them; but where they are very large the bees are compelled to turn them up, or the honey would flow out. As the honey is kept in place by capillary action, if the cells exceed a certain size, the adhesion of the liquid to the wax walls is insufficient, of itself, to hold the honey in place. Where drones are to be reared in the very large cells, the bees contract the mouth by a thick rim. As an experiment, I had some plates made for producing small sheets of fdn., having only 3 1/2 cells to the inch. The bees worked on a few of these, the! same thick rims, but they evidently did not like the idea very well, for they tried to make workers cells of some of it, it proved so much of a complication for their little heads that they finally abandoned the whole piece of comb, apparently in disgust. Bees sometimes rear worker brood in drone comb, where compelled to from want of room, and they always do it in the way I have mentioned, like contracting the mouth of the cells, and leaving the young bees are rather large birth in which to grow and develop. Drones are sometimes reared in workers cells also, but they are so much cramped in growth that they seldom look like a fully developed insect. Several times it has been suggested that we enlarge the race of honey - bees, by giving them larger cells; and some circumstances seem to indicate that something may be done in this direction, although I have little hope of any permanent enlargement in size, unless we combined with the idea of selecting the largest bees to propagate from, as given a few figures back. By making the cells smaller than ordinarily, we can get small bees with very little trouble; and I have seen a whole nucleus of bees so small is to be really laughable, just because the comb they were hatched from, was set at an angle so that one side was concave and the other convex. The small bees came from the concave side. Their light, active movements, as they sported in front of the hive, made them a pretty and amusing site for those fond of curiosities. Worker bees reared in drone cells are, if I'm correct, sometimes extra-large in size; but as to whether we can make them permanently larger by such a ! course, I'm inclined to doubt. The difficulty, at present seems to be the tendency to rearing a greater quantity of useless drones. By having the hive furnished entirely with worker comb, we can so nearly prevent the production of drones that is safe enough to call it a complete remedy. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:20:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:22:22 -0400, Dave Thompson wrote: >>4.83 cells to an inch equals a cell size of 5.23 mm > >New calculator batterys needed? > >25.4/4.83 = 5.2588 ~ 5.26 No, just better glasses. Off by a thousandth of an inch, my bad **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 20:32:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Neonicotinoids In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I received a letter from beekeepers in Chile saying they are seeing CCD type symptoms from the spraying of acetamiprid on grapes in bloom. Seems the maker says spraying while the grapes are in bloom will not hurt the bees as acetamiprid (neonicotinoid) is only moderately toxic to bees. The Chile beekeepers are calling the product hurricane but on the net the U.S. product ( registered for grapes)is called assail. Assail (acetamiprid) was responsible for some commercial bee kills as the label says you can spray while in bloom.(source David Hackenberg). Those growers responsible dropped the practice in order to get bees for pollination but the label still says OK to spray while in bloom. If beekeepers in Chile on the list are aware of the problem please email me direct. Same for beeks in California grape areas seeing problems. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:34:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: Chalk Brood Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Last year I had extensive chalkbrood even with all hives on screened bottom boards. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 01:35:12 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit THE HIVE AND HONEY – BEE PRACTICAL TREATISE ON THE HIVE AND HONEY-BEE BY L. L. LANGSTROTH; FOURTH EDITION 1884 COMB Page 74 The size of the cells in which workers are reared never varies; the saying may substantially be said of the drone - cells, which are much larger; those in which honey is stored very greatly in-depth, while in diameter they are of all sizes, from that of worker to that of drone cells. As 5 worker, or 4 drone cells, will measure about one linear inch, a square inch of comb will contain on each side, 25 worker, were 16 drone cells. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:18:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dean, We have gone over this stuff a hundred times, we all know what the old arguments are and what they are based upon. What I have provided is independent corroboration that 5.0 mm cells are too small, that A. I . Root knew this, that the established average size for European bees was and is 5.2 to 5.3 mm and that 4.9 is appropriate for African bees. Ironically, I found this article while looking for something else. I was looking through an old volume of the South African Bee Journal for an article written by Warwick Kerr where he gives his side of the whole Brazil debacle. Interesting reading. He even gives advice on how to live with this monster which he, in a sense, created. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 02:34:38 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- "Peter L. Borst" wrote: >.. the African bees resurged due to natural selection of mite resistant bees. so why don't we have an intensive program in the united states to select for mite resistant bees? doesn't this sound like exactly what we need? i live in the town where johnny appleseed was born (leominster, ma). he made a career of planting apple seeds that would have a very, very small chance of being anything like a yummy fruit, as they were seeds from the cider mills, and apples don't breed true. these apples were for cider, and everyone needed a cider orchard (only safe thing to drink in some places, and aside from honey, the only real sweet). out of the hundreds of thousands of apple trees planted from seeds, a few stood out in the orchards, and grafts from these few trees are the great american apple varities...all by "rolling the genetic dice" and looking for the outstanding among the masses. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 20:03:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Assail (acetamiprid) was responsible for some commercial > bee kills as the label says you can spray while in bloom.(source > David Hackenberg). Those growers responsible dropped the > practice in order to get bees for pollination but the label still says > OK to spray while in bloom. Bob, the Assail labels in the USA state: http://www.upi-usa.com/upi-crop-protection/Assail_insecticide.asp "This product is toxic to bees exposed to direct treatment. Do not apply this product while bees are actively visiting the treated area." So although Assail may be applied during bloom, it cannot be applied when bees are actively foraging. See also: http://www.vegetablegrowersnews.com/pages/news.php?ns=1349 In the bee kill cases you mentioned, how do we know the grower / applicator fully followed the label directions and sprayed the correct dosage and sprayed only when bees were not actively visiting the treated area? Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:22:23 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: mid and late summer treatment In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter Borst: Beekeepers in temperate climates should therefore combine late autumn > management strategies with treatment protocols that keep the mite > population at low levels before and during the period when the winter > bees emerge. Reply: Boy, this is the wrongful thinking that I have heard so far, for if you take the chemicals and acids (which are wrong to begin with, instead of changing field management practices/equipment to handle the problem), and then use before and during the period when the winter bees emerge (Aug/sep/Oct depending upon local), you are doing this prior to major broodnest turnover of late summer going into fall. This means to me treating during honey flows, like main flows on the down swing, and treatment by most all labels requires taking off the honey supers fwiw to supposedly not contaminate them,... like the broodnest (Maryam Fraziers great talk), already seemingly done. On top of that, this action to me, besides, would then tend lessen honey crop to those doing, you also treat the broodnest already having problems with treatments of chemicals and acids IMPOV negating the active microorganisms in pollen and perhaps even the honey, or any supplemental feeds( if any in the hives to a lesser meaningful diet) that is wholesome for life, like making it useless to raise new brood upon (broodnest turn), or keep older bees going (shortening life), plus forcing them instead to live day to day foraging for fresh clean pollen/nectar, for a major broodnest turnover coming with no inhouse backup stores, that is not already contaminated, via these treatments,before and during the period when winter bees emerge, for really brooding up again, with older adult bees now sicker and in a weaker body health due to treatments and poor diet. Then say go into winter and live thru it? Yep, certainly will and then we wonder why bees die and beekeepers have lesser good honey crops? Some I just don't understand treatment protocols that keep the mite population at low levels before and during the period when the winter bees emerge, which is prior to Aug/Sep/Oct timing then....... Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:51:55 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter Borst writes: What I have provided is independent corroboration that 5.0 mm cells are too small, that A. I . Root knew this, that the established average size for European bees was and is 5.2 to 5.3 mm and that 4.9 is appropriate for African bees. Reply: It is not too small if the 5 cells seen is within an inch when measured Peter, for it means an average was taken and there is smaller, and even Prof Baudoux went into this early on with charts and graphs back in early 1920s/1930s laying out both worker and drone sizes. Also established average size means a center size except for one thing..........more forget. the measurement system for doing had to be established and the old rhomboid measurement system was set aside used early on for a more linear one that then was almost like a slide of hand for making one set of measurements done early on, fit a more modern enlarged on sorry to say and this I don't think is really explained to beekeepers, even those in many schools studying. Also established means set by man and not following what seen in Nature. and if 4.9 is appropriate for african bees, then this means a set figure vs another also........ So much room for meaning?????? of what you are saying IMPON Dee A. Lusby P.S. and I haven't even gotten into Wedmore and Phillips for what they saw early on. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 03:24:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Video: Honeybees Reared On Urine Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Video: Honeybees Reared On Urine ITN, 7/8/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/07/video-honeybees-reared-on-urine.html Indian scientists have found a novel way of rearing honeybees. Lynsey Hooper has the story **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 06:50:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dean writes: > so why don't we have an intensive program in the united states to select for mite resistant bees? doesn't this sound like exactly what we need? Dean, Your question is headed in the right direction. But it is slightly off the mark. The question should be: Why, after working on this for almost twenty years, are we not farther along? I would be interesting in discussing this, but you need to catch up on the background work. "SMR -- This Honey of a Trait Protects Bees From Deadly Mites" was published in the May 2004 issue of Agricultural Research magazine. > Aware of the need for healthy honey bee populations, John R. Harbo and Jeffrey W. Harris have spent almost a decade working to produce bees with built-in mite protection. Both are entomologists in ARS's Honey Bee Breeding, Genetics, and Physiology Research Unit in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. "Finding natural resistance has been our goal ever since the mite moved into the global population of honey bees," says Harbo. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 06:59:48 -0700 Reply-To: gfcg7312003@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Sugar dusting In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10807052316r7f3f5cf4r62d99863b74d5111@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, Randy for your clarification.=A0 You wrote:=A0 "In short, our findi= ngs were that sugar dusting is more accurate as a determination of mite lev= el in a colony...However, sugar dusting is not effective at reducing mite l= evels. To us, it is highly useful for quickly screening all colonies in yar= ds for mite levels." =A0 If I understand your position correctly, powdered sugar dusting is more eff= ecatious in getting a mite drop count.=A0 But to my line of logic, wouldn't= a dusting hasten and increase=A0the mite drop, that if done repeatedly, ov= er the course of the summer, reduce the mite levels? =A0 Grant Jackson, MO =A0=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:30:09 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- "Peter L. Borst" wrote: >The question should be: Why, after working on this for almost twenty years, are we not farther along? one clue might be (from you original post on this): "the African bees resurged due to natural selection of mite resistant bees." to me, natural selection does not imply a breeding program, it implies an unmanaged population, with the susceptible being culled via natural selection. i don't have the article you cited, so i can only comment on the excerpts you have posted. we do have some interesting examples to study in this country: 1. dee lusby, who of course, both regressed her bees in size, and let nature take it's course. lots of losses upfront (1000 to less than 100 colonies at one point), but has bounced back without treatments. we went through about 600 hives with her. i saw one mite, and then, in a photograph of the same hive after the fact, i saw one more on a bee. some of dees bees are quite isolated...these particular ones are not. 2. michael bush largely works with bees of feral origin. his claims are that even the commercial stock he has put on small cell has shown good enough mite resistance to not have to treat...and his official inspection reports are on his website, showing virtually no mites. he uses no treatments. ...our operation isn't old enough to draw any conclusions from, but i'm happy to go through it first hand with anyone if they are interested (email me offlist)....especially if they are interested in repeated visits to track things over time. >"SMR -- This Honey of a Trait Protects Bees From Deadly Mites" was published in the May 2004 issue of Agricultural Research magazine. ...the whole article can be found here: http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/may04/bees0504.htm what seems to be missing, is a comparison of how these bees do completely without treatments, vs the examples i cited above. michael's bees are not isolated, and some of dee's are not. how are they surviving without mites? how does michael bush either achieve near zero (or zero) mite counts? http://www.bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm it seems to me that we have breeding programs that are designed to produce bees that don't need to be treated for mites...yet they have not demonstrated having achieved this, have they? then, we have people, using a combination of sc and simple natural selection who have demonstrated populations of bees that do not require mite treatment. the example i gave of apples in this country (which is largely from "botany of desire" by michael pollan) is, i think, a good one. these apples are not the result of a breeding program, but a result of planting _lots_ of seeds, and selecting from the best results. yes, this is more complicated in honeybees (as mendel discovered), as the multiple drone matings make things...interesting :) deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:50:33 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Video: Honeybees Reared On Urine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a must-watch video! For those still suffering with brood diseases who own a herd of cattle, "Urine Luck"! I now understand why the fall honey from my Bronx Zoo hives has a slightly "off" taste - the bees are far too close to elephants, tigers, and several types of cattle. Time to talk to the Botanical Garden... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:13:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: Sugar dusting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Grant Gillard wrote: wouldn't a dusting hasten and increase the mite drop, that if done repeatedly, over the course of the summer, reduce the mite levels? I'll chime in because I've done some experimentation with this method, but have not published anything. The key question is whether your sugar dusting practice is eliminating enough mites fast enough. In my opinion, one has to make measurements and not just assume the dusting is getting enough mites. Conditions vary based on location, your bee genetics, and your other management practices. Mr. Dowda has claimed that weekly sugar dusting is sufficient and he is probably correct for many but not all situations. Here is a way to verify the performance of a mite control method, like sugar dusting or Sucrocide, that take out some portion of phoretic mites. Since this method is labor intensive, I use it to check out a treatment method but not routinely thereafter. Measure daily mite drops for the one or a few colonies to be studied. Do this for enough days to get a reasonable looking pattern established (in my case the natural mite drops were fairly consistently increasing from day to day, so 5 days of history was enough). Then apply your sugar dusting treatment. Keep tabulating the daily mite drops and do another dusting in 7 and then maybe 14 days. At this point you have enough data to do some analysis and see whether your efforts have a prayer of working. To do the analysis, here are some varroa population parameters that seem reasonable to me in the summer in the Northeast. Roughly one-third of the mite population is phoretic and vulnerable to the powder. Typical natural mite fall is about 3% of total mite population, with most of this mite fall associated with bee hatchout (immature mites and mites that die when in with the bee pupae) which for workers is about 12-13 days after varroa infestation of the cell. If your sugar dusting is perfectly effective, meaning it eliminates 100% of phoretic mites, (and there is no drone brood in the colony) then your natural mite drop counts will show a sharp decline around day 12-13 after the first dusting. Mite drops will then drift back up only to plunge again 12-13 days after your second dusting. If you do not see a significant plunge in natural mite drop counts at those points, then your sugar dusting is not effective. If it is not demonstrably effective, then you need to change something, either switch to some other method or dust differently. Not all brands of powdered sugar are equal and humidity can affect how the dust disperses. Parts of your state are famous for high humidity, unlike parts of California. You could also have a neighbor who is dusting regularly and letting the dust and mites fall to the ground where they are harvested by your bees. Bees quickly learn to forage for powdered sugar and other goodies under screened bottom boards. If you get modest declines in natural mite fall at the 12-13 day marks, you can estimate the frequency of dusting needed to get a steady decline in mite population over time in your circumstances. When you dust, you will notice it is quite disruptive to the colony (not quite as disruptive as Sucrocide) and so there are probably some negative side effects to dusting very frequently. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 16:46:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Video: Honeybees Reared On Urine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone for Indian honey? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:45:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: mid and late summer treatment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee writes: “Some I just don't understand treatment protocols that keep the mite population at low levels before and during the period when the winter bees emerge, which is prior to Aug/Sep/Oct timing then.......” Dee, That of course depends on where you are located. In my neck of the woods, Western Washington State, I doubt if any bees that emerge in July or even early August are going to be around going into winter. I think the whole point Peter and others have been trying to make is that by treating as early as possible AFTER you have taken off the honey supers, you get the mites knocked down before the winter bees are even hatched. That way when they emerge they haven’t suffered the effects of heavy parasitation. Anyway, I’m not sure why you would enter into a discussion of treatment protocols when you are so religiously opposed to any kind of treatment. For people who are interested in trying small cell beekeeping you are the “go to” person and you have a lot of valuable information to offer. But the religiosity of you viewpoint is impossible for me to ignore, and it belies sufficient scientific objectivity on your part when it comes to looking at methods that aren’t in alignment with yours. On the other hand I do think that we need to keep looking closely at what all the effects of what we are doing are, whether it be treating with chemicals or shrinking the size of foundation cells. There is still a lot we do not know. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 12:10:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA3414B9DE2@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dean wrote: >one clue might be (from you original post on this): "the African bees resurged due to natural selection of mite resistant bees." Dave de Jong has been working on this for more than 20 years. Mike Allsopp did his thesis on the subject. I recently wrote about it in the ABJ, and I am fully cognizant of the implications of what I wrote above. What do the bees of Brazil, South Africa, and Arizona have in common, besides apparent mite resistance? While honey bees CAN develop resistance to mite predation via natural selection, it is not clear that European honey bees will develop it to anywhere near the extent that African and Asian bees do. If you think you are the only one who has thought of this, guess again. Just look at who is putting money into the honey bee genome project. And why. (And imagine what they will do with the information.) -- SEE: INFESTATION AND DISTRIBUTION OF THE MITE Varroa destructor IN COLONIES OF AFRICANIZED BEES MORETTO, G. and LEONIDAS, J. de M. Distributed February 28, 2003 The mite Varroa destructor has been infesting Africanized bees in Brazil for almost 30 years. Soon after its discovery, although there were no reports of bee colony deaths, the levels of infestations detected were a source of concern for Brazilian apiculture. However, as the pest started to disperse through the country, the infestation level of varroa on Africanized bees was found to be low, causing no apparent harm to apiculture and requiring no use of chemical products to combat the pest. The high percentage of mites on worker brood of Africanized bees detected in the present study may also be associated with the grooming behavior of these bees, which causes the varroa to look for brood as a defence against worker attack, instead of leaving the adult bees, and to invade the brood to perform its reproductive cycle. This may be one of the causes of the small number of descendants produced by Varroa destructor on Africanized bees. References include DE JONG, D., 1984, Current knowledge and open question concerning reproduction in honey bee mite Varroa jacobsoni. Advances in Invertebrate Reproduction, 3: 347-352. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:20:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids In-Reply-To: <48742A96.EA5@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Paul & All, First let me say I always appreciate your input Paul. However please keep an open mind to what I am about to say. > "This product is toxic to bees exposed to direct treatment. > Do not apply this product while bees are actively visiting the > treated area." Many people can look at a tree in bloom and not see the insects working the bloom. A good example was a friend which said his apple trees were losing all their leaves and asked for me to take a look. We walked out to his trees and most of the leaves were gone. tens of thousands of tent catapillers (same color as leaves) were feeding on the leaves. I asked Don if he could see what was wrong? He said No! Thats why I called you! He was shocked when I pointed out his problem and embarrased. > > So although Assail may be applied during bloom, it cannot be > applied when bees are actively foraging. The above is a product which needs a label change. All beeks are asking for is a few label changes. If Bayer would meet and discuss then the tension would ease in my opinion. I do not know if you keep bees or not Paul but if not let me expalin about bees. You can walk into a field of Clover at the height of the summer honey flow at times and you will not see a single bee. Kind of like this morning after a couple inch rain. So the grower thinks the bees are not actively foraging. He starts mixing his posien and an hour later when he starts to spray the blooms the insects LOVE the bees are on the bloom. Not being a beekeeper himself and with no label police to check his work the grower sprays killing bees. > In the bee kill cases you mentioned, how do we know the grower / > applicator fully followed the label directions and sprayed the correct > dosage and sprayed only when bees were not actively visiting the > treated area? The sad truth is many growers which do not need bees for pollination do not care if bees die. Two things need to happen to protect the bees. 1. ALL spraying needs to be done in the evening after the insects quit working the bloom. Orchards need to be kept mowed under the trees right before spraying to eliminate the clover etc. the spray will fall on and the bees work. crews report in the daytime and many spray in the daytime. When I worked for a grower in Florida we only sprayed in the late evening. Never in the daytime. His son was a commercial beekeeper and a beekeeper I worked with in later years. 2. NEVER spray trees/plants bees work when in bloom. If you feel you have to only spray in late evening. 3. Always tell the beekeeper with hives in the area when a spray is to be applied. Although the above product is a neonicotinoid it has little to do with the issue except for what might be the result of the neonicotinoid spray hitting the ground and taken up into the tree. Most commercial apple orchards spray insecticide around 14-15 times in a season. bob bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:01:50 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul said: > So although Assail may be applied during bloom, > it cannot be applied when bees are actively foraging. Hey! There's a plan - make up a term that has no meaning to excuse the criminal behavior of spraying during bloom. Does "actively foraging" mean "right now", "today", or "this week"? The problem is that different plants put out nectar and different times of day, and growers are famous for not knowing this. How many of us have gotten the phone call where the grower claims that your bees are not working his crop, only to admit that he has not been looking at what you know to be the appropriate time of day for his plants to be producing nectar? But now the lowest-level employee in a farming operation, the one least likely to even read English, is being held responsible for either: a) Doing his job as ordered, and thus keeping his job b) Declining to spray because he saw bees on blooms. Yeah, that'll work. This, of course assumes that he can puzzle out the wording of the label, which is made difficult by design for even native English speakers, and is utterly impossible to fathom for anyone with even a tiny smattering of entomology education or the slightest familiarity with bees. That exact wording is exactly the same unrepentant word game that Cerexagri, maker of Assail, has played for years. I addressed this in the June 2007 Bee Culture: "...it shows how laws requiring warnings intended to protect bees have been twisted by pesticide ad men into phrases like: 'You can apply AssailR at any time during the season, even during bloom (when bees are not active).' Is this advice to fire poison at whim during bloom? It seems to imply the impossible - that bees will somehow not be 'active' during bloom! The misleading wording cynically subverts laws protecting pollinators." http://bee-quick.com/reprints/serial_killer.pdf So while the label may carefully dance around the language with meaningless nonsense terms like "actively foraging", the ads for the product are what prove the criminal intent of this company. As soon as we have an administration in office that will not "Actively Frustrate" the EPA, this sort of criminal behavior will stop. Right now, we have an administration that would rather issue EPA permits to drill for oil in your beeyard than enforce any EPA environmental or safety regulation. And this company now exports its criminal behavior to Chile. But there is no such thing as "actively foraging", even if the farmer might be expected to care to notice it happening. There is only bloom, and any/all blooms must be considered as being foraged, as the foraging is exactly what the blooms provoke and encourage. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:29:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Video: Honeybees Reared On Urine In-Reply-To: <200807091556.m69DxdKX004202@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Interesting enough video, although at first it wasn't clear exactly what brood malady the researchers were trying to impact with the application. I assume, given the mention of Terramycin that the malady was AFB. So I wonder what it is about cow urine that is effective against Bacillus larvae? Does the active agent impact both the vegetative and sporal stages? And if it's truly an effect treatment, why did the discovery take so long? Did the organic beekeepers know this all along? As far as Indian honey goes, well, if you've ever observed where your bees are getting their water perhaps you would not be so quick to judge. But seriously, is this for real? Aaron Morris - Wondering how they get the cows to pee in a bottle? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:40:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Fischer wrote: > Does "actively foraging" mean "right now", "today", > or "this week"? The problem is that different plants > put out nectar and different times of day, and growers > are famous for not knowing this. Jim, yes, "actively foraging" means "right now". There are many weather and environmental situations when bees will not be visiting a crop that is in bloom. For example, during years there is excessive cold and overcast during the bloom period in Feb-March, bee pollination of California's almonds is relatively poor. Likewise in mid-summer throughout the USA, there are days of heavy overcast when pollinators will not forage even if winds are calm and the ambient temperature is warm. The wording of the Assail label gives growers the option of spraying during bloom when the bees are not actively foraging. If I was a grower, I would appreciate that option. Of course, if the environmental conditions change quickly and the bees are out foraging by the time the grower has his spray rig set to go, then the grower would need to abort or be in violation of the label. Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 17:04:38 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Wanted: Beekeeper - $20,000.00 For 10 Days Part-Time Work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A producer at ABC TV has asked our help in finding a beekeeper that would meet the following criteria: 1) Married 2) One or more kids still living at home 3) Willing to be on "Reality TV" 4) One parent able to travel for 10 days The TV Program is called "Wife Swap", which we are told has been aired for several years, and does not involve anything untoward, in spite of what the name might imply. We are told that the participating family will be paid a base amount of $20,000.00 and has a chance of winning an additional bonus of $50,000.00 Please contact us rather than ABC, as we have been asked to put you directly in contact with the producer for an interview. Name, phone number, address, and e-mail is all we need at this point. They don't seem to care if the beekeeping operation is large or small, but please define your operation size in terms of number of hives. Thanks! joanne thomas and jim fischer bee-quick@bee-quick.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 17:25:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Video: Honeybees Reared On Urine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit So I >wonder what it is about cow urine that is effective against Bacillus >larvae? Perhaps its all antibiotics feed to cows. Poor Indian farmers were known to give strong doses of antibiotics for every minor illness. About 5 years ago the US granted a patent to a Indian product which contains distilled portions of cow urine said to increase the activity of antibiotics and anti-cancer agents. Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 18:29:28 -0500 Reply-To: whalen-pedersen@mchsi.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "E. Whalen-Pedersen" Subject: Re: Video: Honeybees Reared On Urine In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA34101FF2A51@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > it wasn't clear exactly what brood malady the researchers were trying to impact with the application. > I assume, given the mention of Terramycin that the malady was AFB. So I wonder what it is about cow urine that is effective against Bacillus larvae? I agree that it would appear to be foulbrood but it was not clear. Bee preferences for water tends towards the less than savory sources as first published as early as 1940. (Butler, CG; "The Choice of Drinking Water by the Honeybee" in _Journal of Experimental Biology_, *17*, 253-261(1940)) They are attracted to the decaying organic matter content of water as in roof gutters and also in cow urine and feces. In this study bees couldn't distinguish distilled water from dilute salt solutions (sodium or ammonium chloride) up to a concentration of around 0.5 N NaCl/NH4Cl. In cow urine there would be a good dose of various N-containing wastes including free amino acids. If we make an analogy to other spore-formers in /Bacillus/ they are known induce spore germination when exposed to L-alanine (an amino acid) and other substances (allantoin and urea which are present in urine?). Once they start to germinate they become vulnerable and this might be answer. Erik **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 16:53:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Sugar dusting In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Grant and Peter, I wanted to wait until I processed all data before I published results. Take anything below as a rough estimate of my preliminary perusal of the data. Unfortunately, I got distracted by Nosema ceranae before I could crank all the numbers. I found that dusting at 4-day intervals did not result in any *major* drop in natural mite fall after 12 days. Dusting singles weekly kept mite levels from increasing midsummer, but was not effective at making levels drop. Yes, dusting makes lots of mites drop quickly--I've seen 200 mites drop in less than a minute from a 5-frame colony! So sugar dusting does indeed drop a lot of mites (about half the phoretics, it appears, but I need to reconcile some data before I stand behind that number). Unfortunately, the remaining mites in the brood make up for the drop to some extent. So sugar dusting is useful to slow the exponential growth of mite populations, but was not effective in my trials at *dropping* mite levels. Yes, you are entirely correct about the individual situation. I have not tested in a high humidity area. Local hobbyists claim great success with dusting, but some also claim great success doing nothing! One thing is clear to me in California--varroa is more of a problem in large apiaries than in a hobbyist situation with a few colonies. Don't know why, it seems that drift and robbing issues should be similar. The mite drop for the first hour post dusting is an extremely accurate assessment of mite level in the colony--it appears to be far more accurate than natural mite drop, and likely more accurate than the alcohol was of 300 bees. Even the 10-minute drop had a 42% correlation with the alcohol wash. This method is an extremely fast way to compare mite levels in all colonies in a yard. We can test a yard of 36 in about 20 minutes--providing that all colonies have screened bottoms. We use dry corrugated signboard to catch the mites--no sticky. Then the boards can be slapped against the side of a hive to remove the sugar, and reused time and again. We glance at the boards and do a simple triage--zero to a few mites, 5-10 mites, more than 10. This sorts our colonies into potential breeders, normal treatment, or immediate treatment and mark to requeen, depending upon the time of season. Mite levels vary so much year to year that I dare not extrapolate management recommendations. Last year, most of my colonies did well with an oxalic dribble just after Christmas, dustings every second month or month as I checked mite levels, and a single Apiguard thymol gel application in August. Some required a second application. Some colonies required no thymol at all. However, there was considerable loss of colonies that I thought has low enough mite levels to make it without. I should add that I practice only minimal drone trapping in my management, since we nuc all colonies after almonds, and need large drone numbers in early spring for mating queens. I have been trying to perform a trial of drone trapping plus sugar dusting for the season, but have not yet been able to. Randy Oliver Ningaloo Reef, Australia **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 19:48:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Wanted: Beekeeper - $20,000.00 For 10 Days Part-Time Work Comments: To: bee-quick@BEE-QUICK.COM In-Reply-To: <006e01c8e207$670505d0$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The program "trick my truck" contacted Bell Hill Honey to find a beek which needed a bee truck face lift. I think I like the "trick my truck" deal better than "wife swap"! How would the custom paint hold up under bee poop all day. What would the velvet interior look like in a year with propolis stains? Reality TV. What a waste of time in my opinion! However takes your attention away from real issues like a 9% approval rating for our congress and the lowest rating for Bush in his term. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 19:57:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I think we need to wait and see what Jerry B. finds in Dee's bees. Despite the fact Dee's bees are in areas with commercial bees they certainly are not in the same holding yard. It would not surprise me to find Dee does not yet have nosema ceranae. When nosema ceranae comes calling things change. It is interesting Dee's level of varroa seems to be dropping from the time Allen Dick visited and said he saw varroa but the varroa seemed to be causing her bees little problems. (see Allen Dicks beekeeping diary) Having kept many survivor colonies I have found one common thing. Survivor bees keep small clusters. The "live and let die" method selects *in my opinion* for bees which keep smaller clusters and bees which shut down brood rearing with weather changes which is a form of varroa control. In experiments I have taken survivor bees which survived varroa when left alone ( same location and no feed) and then cranked up as we do in commercial beekeeping. Fed 4-5 gallons of syrup to stimulate brood rearing. sent into almonds , then apples , then honey flow with strong brood rearing for 7-8 months. By August those survivor bees were crashing from varroa. it is my opinion the the same would happen if Dee's or Michael Bush's bees were done the same way. Would be an interesting experiment. My last experiment 2007/2008 I will now share. Both groups of hives were given the same treatments last fall and this spring. One group sat on permanent locations and the other was sent into almonds and then apples. The stationary group you have a hard time finding a varroa mite. The other group had some DWV and high varroa loads after apples. The experiment involving a large number of hives makes me believe that a big difference exists in varroa loads when migratory beekeeping and simulative feeding is involved. It also makes me believe that to stay in business the commercial migratory beek needs to treat as needed. With treatment the migratory bees paid the mortgage. Pollinated the U.S. pollination needs. I am glad Dees and others bees are surviving without treatments however I have not seen any of those methods which will work for the migratory beek. Also high desert temps (heat) is a varroa control. You can kill varroa on bees with a temp around 120F.( if I remember correctly) Desert temps in Arizona reach these temps. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:34:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: Sugar dusting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 9 Jul 2008 16:53:36 -0700, randy oliver wrote: >We use dry corrugated signboard to catch the mites--no sticky. Then >the boards can be slapped against the side of a hive to remove the >sugar, and reused time and again. So, if I understand you correctly, the mites and sugar are left on the ground. How do you know what happens to those mites when bees show up later to harvest the sugar? I slapped my collection boards into a screened box so I could take the mites and used sugar home and treat it like hazardous waste. My box was actually a deep hive body on a screen on a deep hive body on an inverted cover. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 18:52:24 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob Harrison: It would not surprise me to find Dee does not yet have > nosema ceranae. When > nosema ceranae comes calling things change. Reply: First emails received from Jerry posted on organicbeekeepers list said nosema ceranae in many of hives, but not all and no final results, just preliminary, and only received witin past week fwiw and posted next day after getting, and further analysis to finish results still being done. No breakout of levels/percentages or other received so far..... But knowing research in 1960s with labs talked about mites and seeing nosema associated with same and DWV means it's nothing new Bob, and in 1960s/1970s it not considered much of a problem fwiw. Only big difference done at that time was sizing up to 5.4mm sizing with foundations sold on market from old 4 gilt edge Bob. But today it is a problem.......now why the difference? Also the bees I talked about losing, with earlier posting weeks/months ago are surviving so far, and are doing great with what I posted here I was going to do to correct problem, which also included seeing bees spit out pollen and honey stores and squeakingly cleaning all brood combs and whole hives for that matter with propolis........ So I not buying nosema something new with mites due to old USDA archives of mites and nosema and DWV seen together........ This means something else going on, and only reason I can see for spitting out the food or pollen/honey in this case is like in a fridge when it goes bad..............you get rid of it! and then go get new!!! if you can! and herein is the problem I think with others, and not so much me!!! Contaminated food making and compounding for what the bees can do and is why Maryan Frazier and Jerry need to work together to help you all! But I still awaiting on results and Dr J. Bromenshenk is doing a swell job and sure hope he gets ENOUGH MONEY FROM YOU ALL to do what he has to do!! Maryan Frazier also, as her work and Jerry's looks fine to me! Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:22:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote: … the established average size for European bees was and is >5.2 to 5.3 mm and that 4.9 is appropriate for African bees. An observation here with the feral recovery is that early rebounding ferals were very rare here, but were generally 4.9 to 5.1 mm. Now that the feral recovery is very well established in my area and ferals abundant, I have noticed an increase in feral cell sizes to an average of 5.2 and 5.3 mm and rare to find any ferals smaller than 5.2. Now how to explain the observation, I am not sure. But I am pondering a theory that it is because, as varroa suppression traits are being developed in these ferals, it no longer necessitates a varroa mode of resistance based solely on a single mechanism such as cell size. As of now, favoring the theory that as varroa resistance mechanisms develop in the ferals, the ferals will begin to return to a cell size that would enable peak efficiency in colony functions. Brings up questions like,,,, might better resistant traits be found in the 5.2 to 5.3 ferals? and might smaller sizes potentially indicate a lacking of traits, or perhaps indicate a strain lagging behind in development of essential traits of resistance? and was small cell perhaps. ‘natures stop gap’ solution for varroa, and may become no obsolete in the feral populsion as traits of resistance continue to develop? Best Wishes, Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:19:08 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: mid and late summer treatment In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Steve Noble: I doubt if any bees that emerge in July or even early August are going to be around going into winter. Reply: They are not. YOu missed the point of what I was saying. You see they are the bees that will do the broodnest turn, and if they cannot turn or in high enough numbers and healthy, things have a way of stopping.You DO NOT empeed the ones doing the work of the turn... You see this is what I am postulating happened to me by those hives of mine in a robbing mode that were weaker and of less stores, and then spitting out what they got or brought home that contaminated the whole house, in this case! And it does have bearing on me what others near me with yards do that effect my apiaries...........IMPOV or IMPON. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 05:00:37 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit a few thoughts: 1. wrt dee's CCD affected yards: what is the current thinking on reusing nosema ceranae deadout equipment without treating/fumigating? Ramona and I helped dee do splits in these yards in April. The splits were made directly into the deadout equipment still in the field. These splits are, according to dee, doing great. Is this along the lines that others are seeing when repopulating deadout nosema c. equipment? 2. wrt the original journal article cited: the author (whoever he/she is) never claims to have measured any cells at all (at least not in the excerpts cited), and loosely cites A. I. Root as measuring natural comb as having one, single size cell. Without typing directly from a more modern (1974 vintage) "ABC and XYZ", I can tell you there is more detail. Root made the foundation 5cells/inch, but noticed that the bees prefered their own natural comb in which the cells were bigger. Now, I don't know if there are first hand accounts of the details of this experement, but what I imagine is a hive with both foundation/worker comb and natural comb...noticing that the bees prefer the natural comb. Regardless of the proportion of foundation comb to natural comb, the bees would, by nature, build the 10-15% drone comb they are inclined to build if given the chance, in only the natural comb. In the early ABC article I posted, Root observes that if the comb is at all irregular, then the cells tend to be a bit larger...so it shouldn't be surprising that the natural comb, with a disproportionate amount of drone comb, would tend to be "more irregular" (and therefore with a tendancy to be larger cell) in a hive with also 5cells/inch worker foundation comb. Root observed that the bees preferred the natural comb. a. animals don't always "prefer" what is best for them (like a rat choosing the cocaine lever over the food lever, or an obese dog that eats and eats but never exercises...the dog prefers it, but it doesn't make it healthy for the dog). b. could it be that they preferred the natural comb because it wasn't made from processed wax? did it smell funny? Was the texture wrong? c. Root clearly stated in the early ABC article that worker comb generally "contained 5 cells within the space of an inch". This can be called an old argument, but Root wrote this. He also detailed a plan (and a mechanism) to make the bees larger. Is it really so surprising that after he wrote this original article he made the foundation (and bees) bigger?...he predicts it. "Several times it has been suggested that we enlarge the race of honey - bees, by giving them larger cells; and some circumstances seem to indicate that something may be done in this direction" d. So, let's concede (for the sake of argument) that "Africanized Bees" are a special case, and have a higher propensity for varroa resistance. So what? EHB and AHB are so close in appearance and behavior that lab tests are needed to identify the differences (and these results don't aways agree from lab to lab). You have cited a demonstrated instance of honeybees adapting to varroa. Why is this not worth doing with EHB stock? Who, besides Dee, has been willing to lose 90% of their stock and still not treat? The photos that go along with the article about the "artificial selection" being used includes II, and all that stuff...which has not been demonstrated to successfully lead to bees that don't need treatment for varroa....the bees built in inhive genetic diversity is there for a reason. I am not saying anything bad about the researchers in question, but I do think that it is amazing that given the evidence of actual mite resistance through natural selection, that ! more of the industry doesn't seem to think simple, demonstrated natural selection should be taken seriously...or sees the short term losses too expensive. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 23:12:24 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob Harrison then honey flow with strong brood rearing for 7-8 months. By August those survivor bees were crashing from varroa. Reply: Hey Bob, my dear old friend, my bees are currently building best since 2004 now with last three years terrible drought. But like early 1990s and have been building up and recovering since April when I started serious workups, that brought Dean and Ramona out here for hardcore handson. By 1Oct when Broom hits for normally last big run, unless fairyduster kicks in, it will be 7-8 months of strong brood rearing. So shall see this year if the bees surviving from last years crash come thru. That's what I keep referencing I am waiting to see. Will they come thru the hard last summer/fall turn or not......In meantime taking honey now, and not waiting until fall like last year or year before. So it is now July and another 4 months to go to see how story plays out. But so far so good........and they are all 4-5 deeps fwiw old commercial style. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:06:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth Comments: To: Dean Stiglitz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dean writes: > You have cited a demonstrated instance of honeybees adapting to varroa. Why is this not worth doing with EHB stock? Who, besides Dee, has been willing to lose 90% of their stock and still not treat? Again, you should study the background on this. Marla Spivak, John Harbo, Kirk Webster, Mike Johnston, and many others have been working on this for decades. By the way, my contention is that the natural size of EHB cells is and has always been 5.2 to 5.3. But whether smaller cells inhibit varroa reproduction is a separate issue. SEE: "The influence of brood comb cell size on the reproductive behavior of the ectoparasitic mite Varroa destructor in Africanized honey bee colonies" Giancarlo A. Piccirillo and D. De Jong Genet. Mol. Res. 2 (1): 36-42 (2003) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:07:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alf Bashore Subject: Re: Chalk Brood In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All my colonies have screened bottom boards, some type of ventilated outer cover, and most have the BetterBee slatted rack. The chalk brood started in my home apiary, which I suppose can be damp, though with the 4 or 5 (or more) years of drought in that location I haven't realized the potential for dampness. On the colonies that have had more shade than the others, I have removed or opened those small light shade trees. Next on the agenda at the home apiary will be to relocate all my colonies about 1000 feet away and elevated about 50 to 100 feet higher. In that location the bees will have very early sun and very late afternoon shade. A swale and snow fence will help break up the northern winter winds. Maybe I will be rewarded with higher honey yield next year. But for now, I am just monitoring. Only one colony seems to be currently afflicted on a small scale. I have a minor illness, which does not permit me to do much work in any bee yard currently. Yes, I am following all my physicians instructions, plus I use the honey my bees gave me last year. Alf **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 06:20:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Sugar dusting In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > So, if I understand you correctly, the mites and sugar are left on the > ground. How do you know what happens to those mites when bees show up > later to harvest the sugar? Good question, Peter! Hasn't appeared to be a problem. I've never seen bees go for the sugar on the ground--perhaps because I'm in a dry area. In my summer yards, ants get the mites quickly. According to research by Jeff Pettis, mites 2" below the hive have little chance of returning. Varroa are sensitive to heat. Perhaps they cook on the hot ground--I'll have to check. It would be a good experiment to paint a bunch of mites with fluorescent paint, and shake them around a hive. Then check combs later to see if any found their way in. I'll put it on my list! Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:56:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Peter Borst wrote: >By the way, my contention is that the natural size of EHB cells is and has always been 5.2 to 5.3. i know that is your contention, but the evidence you've used to support it thus far, is someone (unknown person) in the 60's, citing A.I. Root as claiming that natural comb worker brood is of one specific size. Root's own writings always (as far as i can find) talk about a range of cell sizes for worker cells in natural comb. it also seems (from my reading of things) that before starting to use foundation that Root measured the cell size as smaller than "5 cells to the inch", and after starting to use foundation (presumably in the same hive with some natural comb), found the natural comb to be a bit bigger...this isn't surprising (see may last post). and even if you are right, why are we using 5.4 foundation today? deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:51:14 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Sugar dusting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > According to research by Jeff Pettis, mites 2" below the > have have little chance of returning. This has since been proven false by a number of people. Jeff's assumption was the original assumption behind the screened bottom board design that was to be placed atop a solid bottom. "Open bottoms" have since been introduced. You can test this yourself with mites that fall onto a "dry" board (rather than a sticky board) as follows: a) Put the mites in a Tupperware container b) Watch them climb out, even out of a container 4 inches or more in height. Also, I said: >> an approach where powdered sugar is dumped onto the top >> bars.... will not create the fine particles that work, >> and will clearly never reach all the bees in the hive. And you agreed: > sugar dusting is not effective > at reducing mite levels... > sugar dusting along with drone removal appears > to be quite effective. The drone removal is > likely the major component... But I do not think that the reason for the failure of the "Dump-n-Brush" method can be said to be due to climbing mites, as I tried it over and over with open mesh bottoms. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:36:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alf Bashore Subject: Re: Sugar dusting In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A few years ago sugar dusting originally for me was a slow method with a small one handed sifter. Worked fine for six to eight colonies. Then after I read Randy's article in ABJ early last year, I went to that method. Works mostly fine except for the occasional clump, which I crushed by hand or the hard side of the brush. At that time I was temporarily up to about 18 colonies. This year 40 colonies. I have found that the sugar dust says under the colony. The bees do not retrieve any of the sugar. I've watched daily. Ants do the removal. Maybe during a time of an absent nectar source thee bees might, but I have not seen this. This spring I reset their concrete block foundations under most colonies in the home yard. There was still untouched, but mildewed sugar dust under the hives on the blocks and on the ground underneath. I have leaf mulch all around and under the hives, which sit eight or twelve inches higher than the mulch. The hives sit 4 inches above the bottom board in most cases. I also plant lots of various thyme plants around the colonies--sort of a holistic, spiritual treatment. If I step on a plant, the bees fly to the scent. If I am feeding them supplementary sugar solution and the internal bucket feeder leaks just slightly, I have seen the bees drinking the seepage coming out a corner of the hive. I add Honey-B-Healthy to this solution. With this they will fly to an empty clean bucket to the scent. The bees do not go under the hives for fallen sugar dust or anything else. Well, perhaps a few ill bees do, before they die. Birds clean up the yard of dead insects. Now, currently, it seems that I will not be able to do anything to my colonies for quite a while. Ha! I guess that will be a real trial for the bees over the fall and winter. We'll see how many survive. I just cannot do any bee yard work of any kind because I have this nuisance Bell's Palsy. I cannot blink my dominant eye. My none-dominate eye is worthless my whole life. Since I cannot blink the dominant eye, I won't dust, smoke, or do anything on my colonies. I wouldn't be able to see much, except blurs anyhow, because of the moisture ointments. After all this heals, then the bees will be getting super intensive care for while. For me the docs say about 30 days, maybe longer. Haven't been to the out apiaries for a few weeks. These bees are supposed to be my upcoming retirement business in a few years. Thank you all for your advice and suggestions. Alf Bashore **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:23:35 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob Harrison: Also high desert temps (heat) is a varroa control. You can kill varroa on > bees with a temp around 120F.( if I remember correctly) Desert temps in > Arizona reach these temps. Reply: In parts of Arizona yes for 1-2 days perhaps, but normally cities were asphalt is like Tucson, Phoenix, Yuma even, and the sand dunes areas/ large fields along main roads with mile after mile crops & surrounding airports average about 105F. Out in country side it is a lot cooler, for most keep bees up in hills more, though summer temps can get to 105F or odd days 110F in Jul until rains hit. But where I am what temps are in Tucson is normally about 10F cooler up in hills for most part. Unfortunately lab is in Tucson. With rain today was in 70s.But I liked the rain. Dee **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 01:26:54 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Wanted: Beekeeper - $20,000.00 For 10 Days Part-Time Work Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>However takes your attention away from real issues like a 9% approval rating for our congress and the lowest rating for Bush in his term. A direct result of having self-serving politicians who were elected on the presumption that they will serve the people. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:26:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Sugar dusting In-Reply-To: <487672C2.50107@evenlink.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Alf & All, you might consider joining a bee club in your area. When I have had health issues many members offered help. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 04:21:40 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit from: "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Beekeeping" Edited by Roger A. Morse, and Ted Hooper (this particular text appears to be written by the editors) 1985 Page 79 "BEESWAX is used to build hexagonal cells with three faced bases. Normal honeycomb is of two sizes: worker comb has cells 1/5 inch (5mm) in diameter, and drone comb has cells 1/4 inch (6mm) across" from: "First Lessons IN BEEKEEPING" By C. P. Dadant Revised and rewritten by M. G. Dadant AND J. C. Dadant Revised and Reprinted 1946 Reprinted 1947 Page 30 "The cells in which the worker bees are reared measure about five to the inch or a trifle over twenty-seven to the square inch. The cells in which drones are reared measure four to the inch." **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:54:54 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter Borst: the natural size of EHB > cells is and has always been 5.2 to 5.3. Reply: Question for Peter: What area may I ask do you define as natural to EHB in Europe then to set this standard by you without interference by other non-EHB? Is there a set boundary? Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:00:39 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Small Cell Size Myth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/07/2008 20:46:50 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: South African bees from being ravaged by varroa, and the African bees resurged due to natural selection of mite resistant bees. Peter, Can you please give us more details of this, particularly the time-scale? Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 08:46:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: no water, no bees - keep planting those almonds anyhow Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Turns out not only is it unclear where sufficient honeybees will come from to pollinate future almond orchards but the shortage of water could be another reality that forces this industry to reign in their big plans of exapnsion. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/11/MN7210D50A.DTL (07-11) 04:00 PDT Newman, Stanislaus County -- Standing on a ridge between a sluggish water canal and a swath of spindly, gray almond trees, farmer Jim Jasper has a good view of California's water crisis. Drought forced one of Jasper's friends to abandon these trees. The adjacent canal's flow has been reduced by more than one-third to protect an endangered fish. To offset the loss, Jasper has leased the land beneath the dying trees to use its water on his own 2,500 acres of almond trees, some of them "babies." Being a farmer in drought-prone California always has been a struggle. But 2008 is turning into one for the history books. This year, natural and man-made water shortages will cost the agriculture industry more than $160 million, not to mention the reduced plantings for next year and the ripple effect through banks, farming equipment businesses and consumers who could pay even higher prices for food. "We got through (droughts) in the 1970s and 1980s, but now we have the two-pronged attack of the drought and the Endangered Species Act," Jasper said. "With a row crop, you can park the tractor or say, 'This year I'm going to plant only 50 percent.' When you have a young orchard, you can't walk away from it." **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:26:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: William Sharp Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I was wondering if it isn't time to step back and rethink this whole ne= onic issue. =A0 Wasn't that just one idea that people came up with to explain CCD and now h= ave realized that it is without merit?=A0 Why are beekeepers still carrying= on about it? I understand that early neonics were quite toxic to bees, but that much pro= gress has been made=A0in that regard=A0(i.e. Assail and Calypso). =A0 Bill Sharp **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:15:25 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: de roeck ghislain Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids In-Reply-To: <546212.35039.qm@web53105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Sharp wrote: >I understand that early neonics were quite toxic to bees, but that much progress has been made in that regard (i.e. Assail and Calypso).   Do not know if this is true: thiacloprid (active substance of Calypso) has also been found in the honey from the colonies that crashed in the German catastrophe last spring. See also: http://www.imkerdemo.de/ Kind regards, Ghislain De Roeck **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 02:17:37 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Honey bees surviving Varroa destructor infestations in France Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit thank you for that peter...i hadn't seen that report before. am i reading correctly that these were collected feral colonies? that might explain the swarminess...as in managed apiaries the beekeeper takes over the role of making sure the hive reproduces itself (a really good hive is split many times and never has to swarm)...and swarminess is generally selected against. i would imagine that ferals would have some good deal of evolutionary pressure to reproduce, and i can imagine that such a contrast is stark when comparing the two. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 22:56:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: mid and late summer treatment MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Noble" AFTER you have taken off the honey supers, you get the > mites knocked down before the winter bees are even hatched. That way when > they emerge they haven’t suffered the effects of heavy parasitation. > Hi Steve, Perhaps just as important, compromised health of the house bees rearing those winter bees. Are the food producing glands glands up to the task? Alden Marshall **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 02:43:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Bacteria Unlikely to Develop Resistance to Honey Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bacteria Unlikely to Develop Resistance to Honey Study Reports that Honey Holds Potential for Healing Wisconsin Medical Society, 7/11/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/07/bacteria-unlikely-to-develop-resistance.html Madison - There’s one more reason to like honey, besides the taste. Researchers at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health call the gooey substance “a low-cost topical therapy with important potential for healing.”… **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:36:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Sugar dusting In-Reply-To: <487672C2.50107@evenlink.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi All, The point to take home about sugar dusting, or any other treatment, is to use bees that handle most of mite control by themselves. Any treatment is secondary, and only to assist colonies that aren't keeping up with the mites. Peter's question about returning mites is really rather moot in my operation, since we rarely see a mite drop of over 10 mites 10 minutes after a sugar dusting. Any colony with a mite level that high is either treated with a natural treatment, or moved to home to a mite treatment yard for treatment and requeening. The few mites that are dumped onto dry ground would likely have little chance at adding to reinfestation. Re Jim's question about distribution of dust onto the bees. Joe Carmen sent me photos of commercial sugar dust blowers sold in Italy. They blast dust into the entrance. I have not yet got one into my hands for testing. I guess that I should add building one to my to do list. I'm not suggesting that top dusting through a screen is the best way to dust, but just that it is simple and quick, and requires minimal equipment--a screen and a brush. I have personally dusted over 300 colonies in a day without hand fatigue. I'm not stuck on any method of beekeeping, and agree with Bill that all beekeeping is local. That point has been driven home here in Australia, where they do many things differently than we do in the States. Conditions are different, so their methods are different. By sharing different methods, we can all learn from each other, and try different things. Beekeepers these days need to evolve, since bees, pathogens, mites, nectar flows, and the market are changing each year. What worked perfectly the last two years may fail completely the next. I suggest that all beekeepers keep open minds and avoid being excessively critical of each other. Such criticism prevents many from sharing good ideas, for fear of being ridiculed. I, for one, appreciate hearing new ideas from which I can choose to test in my own operation. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:07:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/07/2008 17:53:41 GMT Standard Time, busybeeacres@HUGHES.NET writes: Most commercial apple orchards spray insecticide around 14-15 times in a season. If this is systemic, doesn't some end up in the apples? Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:16:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: mid and late summer treatment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Alden Marshall writes: "Perhaps just as important, compromised health of the house bees rearing those winter bees. Are the food producing glands glands up to the task?" That is a good question. It is what Dee seems to think may result from chemical treatments. And she may be right. My point is do we know? Not only is there the question of whether we know that said treatments have this effect at all, but if they do is it more harmful to the bees than a heavy mite load would be. For those who have solved their mite problem without using chemicals this is a moot point. For those of us who haven’t it is not, and we would like to see the scientific evidence. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:46:15 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Honey bees surviving Varroa destructor infestations in France In-Reply-To: <20080711.221737.13819.0@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dean: the original can be found (in a pdf) here: http://web.uniud.it/eurbee/Proceedings/FullPapers/EuroBeeYLCVarroa.pdf Reply: Dean, I read thru this and the paper does talk about unworked hives with combs being more then 8 years old and surviving varroa and how they rationalize this. It is an ongoing following of the bees still in works. It does talk about surviving ferals/swarms also, and hygenic behaviour being looked at, etc. The part on the honey production being less, to me means that field management needs to be changed back to similar of what Dr Farrar used to do and promote back in the 1960s or earlier too, rather then today's methods to get around this problem more. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:01:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:07:10 EDT, Chris Slade wrote: > >In a message dated 09/07/2008 17:53:41 GMT Standard Time, >busybeeacres@HUGHES.NET writes: > >Most commercial apple orchards spray >insecticide around 14-15 times in a season. > > > >If this is systemic, doesn't some end up in the apples? > As all beekeeping is local, I find that earlier statement about commercial apple spraying to be completely incorrect for the Wisconsin/Mn region. Most large orchards up here use IPM techniques and very few to none use the neonictinoids. The systemics are for pests that suck on leaves like aphids. Up here they are secondary pests if at all. The main 3 problems for growing apples here is scab (fungus) , coddling moth and apple maggot fly. The systemics are not the first or even second choice for these two pests. I am qualified to make these claims as I manage 1800 apple trees and participate in University and Industry conferences and also do apple pollination for many orchards. We keep hearing the same nonsense about corn. Around here bees rarely visit corn as we have an abundance of flowering plants when the corn is tasseling. If the corn coated seeds was such a bogey man - where are the dead or missing bees in the corn belt (MN, IA,NE,IL,IN,MO)? If anything the Corn Belt had very few reports of CCD. But the Bayer myth lives on and I find it to be the most comforting to those who are heavy into self contamination of their own hive's brood nests or at least support the idea-r that beekeepers need something beyond the soft treatments in order to stay in business. IMO apples are hardly a concern for beekeepers since bees only visit them during bloom and most growers are not concerned about insects at bloom - only scab. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:58:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >As all beekeeping is local, I find that earlier statement about commercial >apple spraying to be completely incorrect for the Wisconsin/Mn region. Or either you are not as knowledgeable about your fellow apple growers as you think? Most large growers will not even discuss their methods around organic or growers on the IPM bandwagon. Most do not becuase the organic and IPM are going to condem their methods. The most successful growers are not the organic and IPM growers but I wish was true. Organic and IPM methods involve risk. The large grower is not interested in taking risks. Small growers, organic and IPM growers and state extension people are interested in taking risks. it is what it is. Surviving in a tough apple business is the main concern for the large grower. In Washington State most of the small orchards like Brian speaks of have closed their doors. I watched a recent documentary on the subject awhile back. >Most large orchards up here use IPM techniques and very few to none use the >neonictinoids. Apples( from my over 30 years of growing) are a tough crop to produce pest free. The safest way to obtain the best fruit is with a spray plan set up at intervals so protection from pests is assured. A small orchard like Brian speaks of (or mine) can practice IPM. The large guys never take a chance from what I have observed. Apples need to be close to perfect to sell in todays market. For years I attended the Missouri large fruit growers meetings and 13-14 (and up) insecticide sprays is not unusual. Concoctions of diferent prays used together are not uncommon. Penn cap M is the insecticide of choice and as Brian says only a few use the new neonicotinoids. >I am qualified to make these claims as I manage 1800 apple trees and >participate in University and Industry conferences and also do apple pollination for many orchards. Usually when two qualified people meeting they agree on the basics. I see no need for assail use on apples in bloom. >We keep hearing the same nonsense about corn You are entitiled to your opinion and your opinion is based on what? The research to register the neonicotinoids has been proven not accurate. You offer no proof (other than your reading of the chemical paperwork) to support your claims that the neonicotinoids do not harm bees. For every person which believes as you do hundreds of others are in the streets complaining. How can you be so sure you are right and the rest of us are wrong? .>If anything the Corn Belt had very few reports of CCD. Totally not true for my area. The three largest operations are seeing bees crashing in areas of corn tasseling now. >But the Bayer myth lives on and I find it to be the most comforting to >those who are heavy into self contamination of their own hive's brood nests or at least support the idea-r that beekeepers need something beyond the soft treatments in order to stay in business. I personally do not believe you have a clue what commercial beeks are doing or using. Many beeks from your own state have posted the same opinion. The post on BEE-L from a Minnesota commercial beek said only two beeks were caught using shop rags (and it was never said what was being used). Like the beek said at the time. Not even a percent of the states beeks! >IMO apples are hardly a concern for beekeepers since bees only visit them >during bloom and most growers are not concerned about insects at bloom - only scab. I have real problems with what you say and have a hard time letting slip by unanswered. . Assail has been serious problems for beekeepers doing apple pollination. Your veiws (which may reflect your personal experience) may not include bee kills related to assail but assail was discussed at the commercial beekeepers meeting at the national convention and all greed posted problems. Bee kills were reported when growers sprayed during bloom while hives were in apples. I have dealt with apple growers for decades and they all start timed spray programs starting with the first insecticide spray as soon as the hives are pulled. Many varieties grow on the tree from April to Sept./Oct. in Missouri. 7-8 months 2 sprays a month is 14-16 sprays and in certain years sprays for insects are needed more often. The large orchards I deal with NEVER take a risk on a other than perfect crop. The funny thing is most growers plant disease resistant varieties but spray hell out of the trees anyway. Is this the IPM Brian speaks of? Of course many beeks do the same for current bee problems. If a bee can get the problem the beeks treat for the problem. Not my method but a common method of keeping bees. Call a bee supply house and most are happy to sell you all the meds needed to cover all possible problems. Very few say to test and treat if necessary! Quite a bit of likeness between many beekeepers and and growers. IPM to many means simply skipping a spray to save money but has a element of risk. I do all the time with my apples which is why most my apples become applesauce! As in poker never risk what you can not afford to lose! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 23:07:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Stewart Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've never heard anything about corn. Ohio is filled with corn and we grow hundreds of acres of it ourselves. Never sprayed a pesticide once on it. THis is my first year keeping bees but everything I have heard is that Ohio's bees are simply exploding. Not that that is proof, just an observation. I'd be interested in hearing more about corn vs bees. Cheers! Richard Stewart Carriage House Farm North Bend, Ohio An Ohio Century Farm Est. 1848 (513) 967-1106 http://www.carriagehousefarmllc.com rstewart@zoomtown.com On Jul 12, 2008, at 5:01 PM, Brian Fredericksen wrote: > We keep hearing the same nonsense about corn. Around here bees > rarely visit corn as we have an > abundance of flowering plants when the corn is tasseling. If the > corn coated seeds was such a > bogey man - where are the dead or missing bees in the corn belt > (MN, IA,NE,IL,IN,MO)? If anything > the Corn Belt had very few reports of CCD. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 05:02:50 -0700 Reply-To: gfcg7312003@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Sugar dusting In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10807111736t5ee0391ape7213eba7d55ef3f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy Wrote:=A0 "I suggest that all beekeepers keep open minds and avoid be= ing excessively critical of each other.=A0 Such criticism prevents many from sh= aring good ideas, for fear of being ridiculed.=A0 I, for one, appreciate he= aring new ideas from which I can choose to test in my own operation." =A0 I agree, wholeheartedly.=A0 But I might also add that just because someone = can't see your point, or disagrees because it didn't work for their local s= ituation, there's no reason to become defensive, confrontational, obstinate= or even retaliatory.=A0 And if someone should ask a question because somet= hing isn't clear, take a breath.=A0 Breathe.=A0 Then help them out.=A0 Igno= rance isn't always self-inflicted. =A0 Likewise, if you cast your pearls before swine, don't blame the pig. =A0 There's a lot of give and take to personal, face-to-face conversations that= , unfortunately, eludes this Internet thing.=A0=20 =A0 Grant Jackson, MO=A0 (where we're beginning to harvest an incredible crop of hone= y) =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:47:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Video: Disappearing Honey Bees Sting Food Prices Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Video: Disappearing Honey Bees Sting Food Prices http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/07/video-disappearing-honey-bees-sting.html July 12: Honeybees have been disappearing in droves since Octoboer of 2006. NBC's Anne Thompson explains why this is impacting food prices. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:15:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Dr. Tarpy / Delaney to Start N.C, Feral Bee Project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Bee lovers mapping state colonies. Observers can help by going to a new Web site that lets them report sightings of wild bees" "David Tarpy, an entomologist at N.C. State University, and Debbie Delaney, a bee researcher who works in Tarpy's lab, are collaborating with amateur beekeeper and Web developer Ronnie Bouchon of Raleigh to create a map of feral bee colonies." "They may be an untapped genetic resource that we can use in the industry," Tarpy said of the feral colonies he's trying to map. Read Article Here: http://www.newsobserver.com/print/saturday/city_state/story/1123358.html Joe Waggle Derry, Pa Feralbeeproject.com ‘I laid my head to ye tree and there was a humming, and I said "there is bees"!’ (Bee Hunter, 1641) Eva Crane **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:36:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids In-Reply-To: <44986137-802D-4E3C-AD70-85701923BEC8@zoomtown.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Richard & All, Ohio is filled with corn and > we grow hundreds of acres of it ourselves. Never sprayed a pesticide > once on it. Spraying a pesticide has never been the problem. However spraying sevin on sweet corn while the bees are working is a problem. The issue started in France where beeks seem to think that imidacloprid treated seed has caused the loss of around 120,000 hives. Some products of systemic insecticides were banned( much to the dismay of certain chemical companies). The German beeks claim losses from misapplication (according to chemical companies) of similar systemic pesticides and were awarded two million dollars. The U.K, has banned some systemic pesticides. Quite a few U.S. beeks claim they have lost bees in areas in which certain systemic pesticides have been used and in areas of systemic pesticide treated seed of both corn & soybeans. There is plenty of information on the subject in the archives. Did you use corn seed which had a tag which said "pesticide treated seed" Richard? Did you look or like most farmers do and simply pour into the planters. Many farmers we have spoke with have never noticed the tag and if they did only thought the tag was meant the seed was treated to prevent some kind of pest damage while in the bag. The neonicotinoids make all parts of the plant a killer of chewing insects and is found in both pollen & nectar. The amounts and degree of harm to bees is not yet understood but funding paid for by Hagen Das is supposed to research the sub lethal effects of the neonicotinoids in bees. To be fair: Research from the makers say the dose is too low to harm bees , Research in Italy seems to show the opposite. The roar against the neonicotinoids has been mostly from other parts of the world. However we had around 36% of our hives crash last year and if I remember correctly around 30% the year before on a yet to be found problem named CCD. Canada beeks have had similar losses but their researchers say the cause is NOT CCD but not sure the cause of the high losses. So far none of the researchers can explain fully the losses but even looking into the neonicotinoids presents "an inconvenient truth". In my opinion the neonicotinoids are here to stay and the most beeks can hope for is a few label changes. Hopefully further research will provide better information on if the neonicotinoids are problems to bees and what the sub lethal effects might be. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:01:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All the info concerning what's sprayed on corn or coated on the seeds does not mean jack if the bees don't visit corn. Via a SARE grant I had a university grad student analyze pollen samples from pollen traps for a whole summer here in central MN from 4 different bee yards 3 of them surrounded by corn. The data showed hardly any corn pollen. Up here in the Heartland of American honey production, the sweet clover is in major bloom while the corn is tasseling. In good seasons we can produce 5 supers of honey on average hives over a period from the end of June into early Sept, meaning we have a wealth of nectar and pollen sources, so our bees could presumably could care less about corn. Perhaps in the more southern range of USA corn growing areas this situation is different. Frankly the CCD mystery was never an issue here and continues locally to be nothing more then a media story. Stationary beeks around here had more issues over wintering with concern over nosema. Collapsed hives are things we hear about in the news and happen to our migratory beeks when they are out of state and the occasional novice who has CCD me Too Disease that the media interviews. My point is we have no crisis or mystery up here here in the MIDDLE OF CORN COUNTRY so this whole speculation about Neonictinoids, corn and people losing bees has nothing to do with reality IMO. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:53:14 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said, in regard to Neonicotinoids: > To be fair: > Research from the makers say the dose is too low to harm bees , > Research in Italy seems to show the opposite. This seems to be a new and highly unusual use of the term "fair", one to which we have hitherto been unexposed. :) Let's look at some accurate information, as one cannot ever be "fair" until one at least has facts in hand. There have been allegations related to corn planting exposure made in Italy. Unlike the recent case in Germany, it is NOT suspected that a seed treatment snafu was responsible for the alleged bee kills in Italy. Allegations of bee kills in Italy from seed treatment products go back a number of years (since at least 2003) and have been leveled against several different products. First it was Gaucho (imidacloprid). Then it was fipronil and thiamethoxam. Now it is Poncho (clothianidin). In the past, science panels have reviewed the evidence and found it wanting. They've concluded those products could not be blamed, nor could any pesticide. There are similar reviews going on regarding the most recent reports, but a conclusion has not yet been announced so far. Everyone who knows even a tiny bit of toxicology is very skeptical of some of the residue findings posted on the web and mentioned in press reports. Some are so far above expected levels for a pesticide kill that one has to wonder if the sampling, handling and/or analytical methods were valid. So to summarize, the German situation was an inexcusable and inexplicable sequence of errors that killed lots of bees, and SHOULD be the basis of some serious lawsuits against the company that failed to "glue" the pesticide to the seeds properly. The Italian situation has yet to be proven, and given the history of the prior claims, I think we can predict that these accusations will also evaporate into thin air. As for North American pesticide kills, what we need is less shrugging of shoulders, and more bees being put on dry ice or into liquid nitrogen to be sent to labs. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:47:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kevin Roberts Subject: When to make divides in Washington State In-Reply-To: <001101c8e532$da6d49a0$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi=2C this is Shawna Roberts using Kevin's email... When is the best time to make divides in Washington state? Near the coast = in the southern part of the state... like around=20 South Bend? When would a hobbyist or sideliner make splits there? A friend of mine is writing a story=2C in which he has a beekeeper making d= ivides June 4th=2C after a fine warm May. I have never kept bees in Washin= gton state=2C but I told him that I thought his character was going to lose= a lot of swarms if she waited until June 4th.=20 He thinks that June 4th is probably right=2C based on the information he ha= s been able to find about beekeeping in Washington State. But he wants to = get his timing right in the story.... and he is a self-admitted anal reten= tive=2C so... I said I would ask around. So=2C is June 4th good for making divides in southwest Washington State=2C = after a fine warm May? Or is there a more realistic time for the making of= divides? Thank you very much for your attention=2C Shawna Roberts _________________________________________________________________ Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM= _WL_messenger_072008= **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:16:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DAVID ADAMS Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit who has CCD me Too Disease that the media interviews. Wow, and I wondered about the new name before Jerry B ,explained why it was coined CCD, and I never knew the proper name. Brian, you seem a little hard and critical of those who have experienced a real problem and loss.It's one thing to have opinions (of which we all know what they are) but to throw darts, they hurt. Thanks alot Brother. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:18:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >all the info concerning what's sprayed on corn or coated on the seeds does >not mean jack if the bees don't visit corn. Brian in some years we pull frames full of corn pollen from hives. Myself and others have had pallets full of deeps of corn pollen. Doug Gabbert (Harlen, Iowa) on a visit to buy deeps showed me box after box of frames with corn pollen. However as Brian points out (and also my opinion) the bees prefer other sources of pollen. Of all livestock feeds corn has the least protein. Hell properly cut fescue hay can many times have a greater protein value than corn! The year we had the most problems was the last year of the two year drought. Almost no fall flowers and corn was about the only pollen source. In fall deadouts and winter deadouts we found plenty of corn pollen. When bees were placed on the comb the bees dwindled until fresh pollen was avalable. >The data showed hardly any corn pollen. I agree in a normal year with better sources of pollen available to the bees. > In good seasons we can produce 5 supers of honey on average hives over a period from the end of June into early Sept, meaning we have a wealth of nectar and pollen sources, so our bees could presumably could care less about corn. Corn pollen was suspect when drought happened in the Dakotas. You were lucky and missed the drought a few years ago I have been told and in fact have had (unlike in the Dakotas) normal crops for the last few years. >My point is we have no crisis or mystery up here here in the MIDDLE OF CORN >COUNTRY so this whole speculation about Neonictinoids, corn and people losing bees has nothing to do with reality IMO. If you want to see corn come to Nebraska & Missouri. Like I said in a earlier post I found farms which have planted imidacloprid treated seed in the SAME field for the last 8 years. With the blessing of the seed seller! Comments ? Is there even a slight possibility of imidacloprid buildup in the soil? How about after another 8 years in the same field? No comment? I can tell you from potatoes and imidacloprid that imidacloprid builds in the soil ( archives). Which would make it reasonable to assume that a larger dose in the soil would made a larger dose in the pollen. Why in the heck would it not? Systemic pesticides only need tossed on the ground around the plant to work. I wonder what researchers will find when they double dose with neonicotinoids? Twice the neonicotinoids in the pollen in my opinion? bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 01:26:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: When to make divides in Washington State Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Shawna Roberts asks: “When is the best time to make divides in Washington state? A friend of mine is writing a story, in which he has a beekeeper making divides June 4th, after a fine warm May.” Shawna, I’m up in the Puget Sound area and early June sounds good for making splits to me. Up here there really isn’t a good flow until the blackberries come in about the end of June or beginning of July, unless you have your hives in a huge fruit orchard and the weather happens to cooperate which it rarely seems to do. So by splitting in early June you give the hives you are going to make splits from a chance to gain sufficient strength to withstand pulling some frames from or splitting in half if that is what you are going to do. You may have to feed the splits until the blackberries come in but once they do and the temperature is getting above 70 degrees F, which is when the nectar starts flowing, they have all that time of good flow to build up. Earlier might be even better if you have colonies that are up to full strength. The earlier you can get to it the better chance you have of those splits being strong enough to give you a honey crop from the blackberries. But then also, the earlier you do it the more you are likely to have to feed them. You do have to take the usual swarm precautions as you get into June but hey, you would have to do that if you weren’t going to make splits. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 00:35:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Jaross Subject: Powdered Sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mention was made recently of a tool or machine made in Italy for applying atomized powdered sugar for a modified Dowda Treatment against varroa. Does anybody have more information about it and/or where to get one? Thanks. Michael NW WA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:49:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alf Bashore Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > We keep hearing the same nonsense about corn. Around here bees rarely visit corn as we have an > abundance of flowering plants when the corn is tasseling. If the corn coated seeds was such a > bogey man - where are the dead or missing bees in the corn belt (MN, IA,NE,IL,IN,MO)? If anything > the Corn Belt had very few reports of CCD. > I cannot say anything much about corn, neonicotinoids, & pollen gathering in relation to CCD. But the very first beekeepers meeting I ever attended we had pollen tasting. We had to ID the pollen to the plant. The small commercial beekeeping couple collect their own pollen for resale. They have noticed several things. Some colonies go right to the corn pollen no mater what else might be available. And then later a decline in colony strength results from using their stored pollen. I've read that corn pollen is one of the poorest and incomplete protein sources for honey bees. Poor protein=poor bees. Corn pollen tastes like, well, you know...corn. As for my various apiary locations, all are on organic farms. However all are surrounded by chem-ag methods of farming. Corn fields surround all but one apiary. Even my home apiary has large stands of corn up hill and up stream as close as 1/4 mile away. This is the first year for my out apiary location and the first year the neighbor has planted corn since the bear wiped out my first two colonies. You know I will be assessing the health and activity of my colonies carefully this coming fall, winter, spring. Just to say it differently, this will be a cautious, non-accusatory vigil. I am keeping activity notes for myself. This is not a scientific study...rather it is nature observation. Alf Bashore **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 04:42:48 -0700 Reply-To: gfcg7312003@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: When to make divides in Washington State In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please commend your aspiring author for his attention to detail.=A0 Nothing= bugs me more in any published work, even if it's fiction, than the lazines= s of ignorance and the presumption that the reader won't know or care.=A0= =20 =A0 Grant Jackson, MO =A0 =A0=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 07:21:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Comments: To: David Adams Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DAVID ADAMS wrote: > Brian, you seem a little hard and critical of those who have experienced a real problem and loss.It's one thing to have opinions (of which we all know what they are) but to throw darts, they hurt. Thanks alot Brother. Several people have mentioned to me that they like to read Bee-L but are tired of the arguing and the mean tone of some of the posts. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 08:52:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Stewart Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jul 13, 2008, at 10:36 AM, Bob Harrison wrote: > Did you use corn seed which had a tag which said "pesticide treated > seed" Richard? Did you look or like most farmers do and simply pour > into the planters. Many farmers we have spoke with have never > noticed the tag and if they did only thought the tag was meant the > seed was treated to prevent some kind of pest damage while in the bag. It was my understanding that, in fact the pesticide used was in the treated seed coating to prevent weevil damage that will occur when ALL corn is stored. I hate to question folks that probably have a whole lot more information than I do, but I'd find it difficult to get a neonictinoid into a plant from the contents of a seed. Now maybe a bug killing gene for a GMO product, that is not a neonic. After a many weeks of growth, I would imagine that if left unsprayed they plant coming from a seed with such a coating is not much of a threat, if at all. I've seen what weevils can do to corn after harvest if stored too long and you need to prevent it from happening to a seed crop for certain. So my question is...how would I know the difference? Because of flooding, poor weather, and cool temps, most of corn is not tasseling yet. All of our corn is dent corn, not sweet corn...as is most the corn crops grown...sweet corn is a fraction of the national crop compared to "yellow" corn or dent hybrids grown (not arguing or anything, just pointing it out to those that do not...you'd be surprised how many people do not understand the difference). Cheers! Richard Stewart Carriage House Farm North Bend, Ohio An Ohio Century Farm Est. 1848 (513) 967-1106 http://www.carriagehousefarmllc.com rstewart@zoomtown.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:25:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids In-Reply-To: <3068645C-CF20-4F5E-9601-46211BC88AF2@zoomtown.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Richard & All, Richard said: > It was my understanding that, in fact the pesticide used was in the > treated seed coating to prevent weevil damage that will occur when ALL > corn is stored. The above is what many farmers believe and may in fact be part of the issue but the neonicotinoids are on the seed Richard mainly as a systemic pesticide. The neonicotinoids are for the most part a replacement for the organophosphates being phased out. If you can get hold of the April 2008 issue of the American Bee Journal you can read an entry level introduction to the neonicotinoids. "Neonicotinoids-More Questions Than Answers" ( ABJ vol.146 No.4 pg.337) I explain in the article about one of the first systemic pesticides named Timek. Simply spread the granules on the ground around a oraange tree and all parts of the tree kill chewing insects. Of course the product was later pulled from orange use after found in oranges/ orange juice, nectar/ pollen and in ground water. Temick still has registration in the U.S. (on a very limited scale) but has been banned in the U.K.. The only factor about the neonicotinoids which makes sense is that they are safer for humans than the most (but not all) organophosphate products. I think one can sum up new neonicotinoids by saying like some drugs they have good qualities but have got some powerful side effects (of which we really have no idea what might be long term). Also ways to reverse any long term effects. I hate to question folks that probably have a > whole lot more information than I do, but I'd find it difficult to get a > neonictinoid into a plant from the contents of a seed. Smart move! We learn from asking questions! Busy time for me and days behind in emails and phone calls but will try to answer as will Jim,Peter, Brian and others which understand about the neonicotinoids. We all do not agree completely about the products but I think we do on the basics of systemic pesticides. The neonicotinoids are coated on the seed and then become systemic and then the neonicotinoid pesticide can be found later in ALL parts of the plant. Now > maybe a bug killing gene for a GMO product, that is not a neonic. correct! > After a many weeks of growth, I would imagine that if left unsprayed they > plant coming from a seed with such a coating is not much of a threat, if > at all. Not so. Once the neonicotinoid is in the plant material the plant is protected and the neonicotinoid can be found in the soil as is the case with potaotoes the next year and I have heard even the third year. > > I've seen what weevils can do to corn after harvest if stored too long > and you need to prevent it from happening to a seed crop for certain. Surely you realize there are and always has been other products you can use besides the neonicotinoids for seed protection. The neonicotinoids are on corn seed to do what they were designed to do. Make all parts of the plant posien to insects! > > So my question is...how would I know the difference? At first we found labels which said treated with imidacloprid but after France now all the tags say is pesticide treated seed. .you'd be surprised how many people do not understand the > difference). I grew up with "Dent" corn. ears 18 in. long and twelve ft. plants. The only real issue with the early dent in my opinion was wind damage. Always had areas when tall blown over. We ALWAYS saved the seed. Never bought any seed! Never used herbicides but pulled a cultivator through until the corn was higher than weeds. In my early days of beekeeping I tried to place bees next to these farmers. Those were the best locations for bees to be found in many areas. One summer I went to work for my uncle selling hybrid corn seed. I carried the bags from the truck to the farmers pickups. Not many buyers at first but eventually the hybrid seed took over the market. The hybrid seed was free at first but now the largest expense (with the chems) involved in growing corn. My uncle used to call the farmers suckers for a sales pitch. My uncle used to even like to tell the "farmers daughters jokes" to the farmers!( and would slip a wink at me!) I come from a family of farmers but my uncle only married into the family. He was retired military but was a salesman! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 10:35:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _amesfarm@HOTMAIL.COM_ (mailto:amesfarm@HOTMAIL.COM) writes: Collapsed hives are things we hear about in the news and happen to our migratory beeks when they are out of state and the occasional novice who has CCD me Too Disease that the media interviews. Saying something is so, doesn't make it so. We've a long history with at least several large MN migratory beekeepers who have been hit hard by CCD - and their losses WERE NOT restricted to WHEN they were out of state. Some were hit hard last year, had a portion of their operations hit again this year, and are still limping along with problem hives. We've just finished analysis of new samples from MN. I'm losing patience with these proclamations exonerating stationary beekeepers (we know that they get CCD too) and pretending that CCD is a problem of migratory beekeepers, who only experience CCD when in CA. The evidence is clearly to the contrary. Jerry **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:34:59 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Bees Take Pesticide Regulation Enforcement Personally MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Suddenly, "Do Not Spray When Bees Are Flying" was made crystal clear to at least one crop duster! Bee blamed for causing minor helicopter crash The Associated Press July 14, 2008 WISCONSIN RAPIDS - Wood County authorities say the pilot of a crop-dusting helicopter crashed after a bee got sucked into the cockpit and stung him. Deputy Ted Ashbeck says the chopper was only four feet off the ground, and the pilot was unhurt when the tail rotor smashed into the ground Friday. Ashbeck says the pilot was spraying a cranberry marsh, where beehives are set up to promote pollination. As the helicopter flew above the hives, at least one bee was sucked inside. Sixty-five-year-old Terry Solf of Aline, Oklahoma told investigators the bee stung him, diverting his attention just long enough for him to crash. No one else was aboard. Solf says he's flown helicopters for more than 30 years. Ashbeck says the chopper was "pretty banged up." http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080714/GPG0 101/80714077/1978&located=RSS **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:48:11 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian said: > All the info concerning what's sprayed on corn or coated on > the seeds does not mean jack if the bees don't visit corn. Bees clearly do visit corn for pollen. Others have explained this in detail. But visiting corn was not required in the German incident, as the seed treatment was not properly applied to the seeds, the pesticide dust was blown up into the air by the pneumatic seed drills used to plant the corn seed, and drifted on the breeze to adjacent canola that WAS in bloom. It was a complex sequence of improbable failures, but this sort of thing is going to happen more and more as farmers more and more adopt the same "best practices", rely on the same highly accurate weather information, and do things as a "herd", in this case, all using the same type of seed drills to plant the same type of "defective" seeds within days of each other in a 60 mile by 20 mile area. Richard said: > It was my understanding that, in fact the pesticide used was in the > treated seed coating to prevent weevil damage that will occur when > ALL corn is stored. In the specific area of Germany where the pesticide kill happened, they have a problem with the western corn root worm which prompted the application of "Poncho-Pro" to the seeds at a much higher rate than usual, 1.25 mg of clothianidin per seed. The western corn root worm is a soil pest that eats the developing roots of corn plants. The estimate I've heard is 1200 hives were affected out of approximately 20,000 in this region. The affected colonies did not die out, but there were large piles of dead bees in front of the hives. There's been a lot of misinformation written about these incidents and claimed incidents. Just to repeat, CCD has no connection to any pesticide of any type, and if there was any connection at all, the analysis done so far would have revealed a "smoking gun". CCD is a pathogen problem. Yes, misuse of pesticides is ALSO a bad thing, but my view of the situation is that systemics have greatly reduce the need to spray, and the reduced spraying has directly reduced the number of pesticide kills. More to the point, the neonicitinoids have directly replaced organophosphates, which were perhaps the scariest pesticides ever created by man. So farmworkers like the newer systemics just as much as well-informed beekeepers like them. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************