From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:05:07 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.8 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F398486E3 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y6g017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0807C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 178006 Lines: 3975 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:31:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar In-Reply-To: <200807141023.m6EAHo9L000379@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit michaeljaross@GMAIL.COM asked about a tool or machine made in Italy for applying atomized powdered sugar. joe carson [mailto:alaskaheavenlyhoney@hotmail.com] replied: I have imported them in the past. The market is not that strong so not financially worth the investment at this time. They do come from Italy and are used in much of Central Europe. I teach the use of them in Italy, Croatia, Slovenia, etc. You prop up the hive top lid about an inch or so. I use a closet rod dowel. Insert the flared tip of the bellows operated (similar to a fire place bellows) extension into the bottom entrance and manipulate the bellows the appropriate number of times to "poof" inject the powered sugar into the hive. With the top propped up, you will see the powered sugar cloud coming out the top immediately. It takes me perhaps 10 seconds per hive. The smaller model bellows operated duster holds enough powered sugar to dust about three hives before needing filling. There are three sizes available which have a greater capacity. Also I am working on an air compressor model with large reservoir which could be truck mounted. We have had great results using this method. With the cost of product, shipping, non-attentive attitude of manufacturer, and the American market, I have looked in other areas for a similar product with little success. I have mine for my operation and they work great. Joe Carson Alaska Heavenly Honey NOZEVIT.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:40:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Plan Bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "At last, an authoritative account of the vanishing bees. . . A great detective story, an object lesson of how to live in harmony with the living planet, our home." —Thomas E. Lovejoy, President, the Heinz Center for Science, Economics and Environment "A Spring Without Bees" Plan Bee, Chapter Fifteen of the book, will delight the nonscientific reader with easy-to-follow, simple but detailed ways to stop colony collapse disorder, bring back the bees and develop a sustainable future for the planet. Here are some of the highlights of Plan Bee: * ACT NOW. Ban or suspend use of imidacloprid (IMD), neonicotinoid pesticides and all neurotoxic chemicals on food crops and turf based on the evidence we already have. It is better to error on the side of caution than to unwittingly do irreversible harm to the environment or to endanger our food supply. * Biological controls and natural insecticides have already been proven to be effective solutions for the problems these toxic chemicals are now being used for. Change to organic farming, gardening and landscaping methods. Fund more research to improve biological controls and organic methods. * Form neighborhood organic lawn associations and Save The Bee groups "Your donation will help implement PLAN BEE to STOP colony collapse disorder and save the bees!" **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:36:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Plan Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit even if there is a lack of science behind the books claims - banning the use of lawn products would be a great day. our neighbors to the north have made strides already to rid their communities of these kinds of products. http://www.beyondpesticides.org/dailynewsblog/?p=333 http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/montreal/story.html?id=50a34c28-106f-4ced- 8376-619db1f348d9 i would expect a similar ban here in the USA to happen within the next 10 yrs. its one thing to claim the use of a chem to grow food, but using tons and tons of chems for cosmetic use is questionable at best. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:22:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: 'Case of the Missing Bees' (Penn State Agriculture Mag.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here’s a great article from Penn State Agriculture Magazine! I read the article previously this spring and had been waiting for it to be posted online so I could share it with you. 'Case of the Missing Bees' ‘How scientific sleuths at Penn State are helping to solve the mystery’ Among the great photography, included in the article are photos of: *Dennis vanEngelsdorp visiting Hackenburg’s apiary along the Susquehanna River. *Entomologist Diana Cox-Foster and doctoral student Rob Anderson inspecting newly placed colonies in a greenhouse at University Park. *Extension bee specialist Maryann Frazier talking to students in an apiculture class about colony management. *And some great bee pics. You can read Penn State Agriculture Magazine: article: ‘Case of the Missing Bees’ in link below: PDF of Winter Spring 2008 issue: Go to page 18 http://aginfo.psu.edu/psa/08WinSpr/AgMagWS08.pdf Penn State Agriculture Magazine online: http://aginfo.psu.edu/psa/ Best Wishes, Joe Waggle - Pennsylvania http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:52:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alf Bashore Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA34102198287@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd try buying one, if I knew where to go. It sounds like an essential beekeeping tool in the same class as a hive tool, bee brush, and smoker. Alf Bashore > joe carson [mailto:alaskaheavenlyhoney@hotmail.com] replied: > > I have imported them in the past. > We have had great results using this method. > I have mine for my operation and they work great. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:27:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: 1885 - The Dangers of Enlarging our Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, A cross-post from the Historical Honeybee Articles Archives list: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ I ran across an old obscure article published in the New York Times during the 19th century, while researching an 19c entomologists description of bee behavior, he described as 'bees crying'. Now, I’m not attempting to get involved in another small cell / large cell dispute, BUT the article does show there were concerns about the dangers of enlarging our bees as early as 1885. I can send the PDF of the original copy upon email request. Enjoy! The New York Times Monday, April 07, 1884 New York, New York =====Article Start===== Bees. It appears that some ingenious person has invented a method of producing bees of almost any desired size. If two cells, each one of which contains an embryo bee, are knocked into one, the two bees are consolidated, and the result is a now bee double the usual size. Of course, if this can be done there is practically no limit to the size of possible bees. By knocking four cells into one a bee four times the usual size can be made, and if an entire hive of embryo bees is subjected to this consolidating process we should have a bee about the size of a turkey—a size hitherto attained only by one species of bee, known as the Presidential bee, an insect inhabiting the bonnets of eminent statesmen, and never by any chance producing honey. Before recklessly undertaking to enlarge our bees we ought to ascertain what effect their increase of size will have upon their power and disposition to make honey. The bumble-bee is much larger than the honey-bee, but he is certainly not a success. An insect so dull that he fancies that " bumble" is spelled with an "h," and so lazy that he makes less honey in a whole season than a honey-bee makes before breakfast on a Spring morning, is by no means a model. It may be suggested that the bumblebee's lack of success in manufacturing honey is due not to laziness, but to the inability of his wings to carry with case the weight of his body; but no one who has been chased by an angry bumblebee will entertain this suggestion. It may also be suggested that the trousers pockets of the bumble-bee are so small that he can. carry very little honey in them; but there is no evidence that this is the case. We simply know that the bumble-bee is bigger than the honey-bee, and makes less honey. So, too, the wasp and the hornet are bigger than the honey-bee, and they make only enough honey for their bare necessities. Evidently the rule of nature has hitherto been that the larger the insect the less honey it makes. Now, if the honey-bee, after being developed into a two a two or three pound insect, is going to imitate the laziness of the bumble-bee, what shall we have gained? No one will care to have a score of big, lazy bees dawdling about his premises, upsetting furniture and children by flying against them and tripping people up by concealing themselves in the grass. We shall have to go armed with big clubs to keep off the bees, and though some sport may be obtained, by shooting bees on the wing, there would be no sport whatever should the bees undertake to hunt the sportsman with stings capable of penetrating anything less than an inch of chilled steel armor. Even if the mammoth bees should make honey in quantities proportioned to their size, we should have no use for such a vast amount of honey. It is true that honey is used to a small extent in the arts, and that when one has a personal enemy addicted to buckwheat cakes a horrible revenge can be obtained by sending him a bottle of pure Berkshire County honey to eat with them. Still, there is no such demand for honey as would justify an effort to largely increase its production. Our bees are very well as they are. If a hive is kept on a shelf over the front door, and upset on a book agent, the bees will perform as much work as is necessary. To upset a hive of four-pound bees, in like circumstances, would be simply murder, and would in many cases involve the trouble of a trial and acquittal in a court of law. It might be well to keep large bees in Cincinnati for the encouragement of jurors, and of respectable citizens who call meetings at which people are incited to rioting; but in this region we are satisfied with our local, bees, and will decline to have them enlarged. =====Article End===== ;) Best Wishes, Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:51:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar In-Reply-To: <487D2A3A.40606@evenlink.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You might take a look at these and see if they will work. http://store.doyourownpestcontrol.com/cgi-bin/Pestcontrol.storefront/487d61b905f5f3f0273f4200c15f068a/Catalog/1070 Harper's Honey Farm Charles Harper charlie@russianbreeder.org labeeman@russianbreeder.com (337) 298 6261 Alf Bashore wrote: > I'd try buying one, if I knew where to go. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:40:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar In-Reply-To: <487D6245.3000108@russianbreeder.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A Dustin Mizer might work well with powdered sugar. It is used to spray powders on plants. It is hand cranked. If you google it you will see pictures and descriptions **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:27:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Timothy C. Eisele" Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit randy wrote: > A Dustin Mizer might work well with powdered sugar. It is used to spray > powders on plants. It is hand cranked. If you google it you will see > pictures and descriptions > > I tried one of these for sugar dusting, it has a couple of problems: 1. The concentration of powdered sugar in the air that it blows out is low, so it is pretty slow in delivering the dust. This could probably be corrected by fooling with the screen in the feed hopper to make it convey faster. 2. It takes two hands to use (one to hold it, and one to crank it), so you don't have a hand free to hold frames, lift up hive bodies, or do any other manipulations. It is really pretty awkward to use for this purpose, although it would work just peachy for its intended purpose (applying insecticide dusts to plants). The same sort of thing, but with a powered blower and an adjustable feed rate on the powder hopper, would work a lot better. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:30:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Plan Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [The blurb on Plan Bee was posted by me with my tongue firmly in cheek. I find it mildly amusing to read what these self-appointed prophets would have us do to save the bees. I especially chuckled at the part about the donation. By the way, I have a plan, also. I am sorry but I have sworn myself to secrecy on the details, but if you want to send me any donations, I'm good with that.] **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:43:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 4 Jul 2008 to 5 Jul 2008 (#2008-183) In-Reply-To: <48722561.6B14.0080.0@crop.cri.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Is anyone looking for prions in bees? Hi Barry, I asked that very question some months ago to Dr Joe DiRisi, who was the proteomist who looked carefully at the bee proteomics, and was the first to report N ceranae in the U.S. He felt that if there was a prion, that he would have noticed it. Sounded like a good suspect to me, too! Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:09:15 -0400 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: A Sweet Story with Global Consequences (Jul 15, 2008) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This article is from www.farms.com=20 DiPietre: A Sweet Story with Global Consequences (Jul 15, 2008)=20 There is a crisis brewing in the world today that involves both = issues of economic justice and misallocation of global resources. It = centers on the fact that beekeepers throughout the world are getting the = shaft by a bunch of free-loading orchards, flower growers and backyard = gardeners. Beekeepers invest in bees, hives, hive maintenance, = protective gear and honey extraction equipment while placing themselves = in the sometimes mortal risk of killer-bee takeover of their hives in = order to produce their honey for a hungry world.=20 Despite this risky investment, with all of its financial and = health risks, millions upon millions of beneficiaries of the pollinating = activity of their little insect charges never pay a dime for critical = services rendered. They simply watch with a mixture of corporate greed = and abject moral turpitude while honey bees perform the critical role of = pollinating their backyard fruit trees insuring a bountiful and cheaper = than equitable harvest.=20 If you have a fruit three in your backyard, you share in the = oppression of beekeepers around your area that robs them of profits and = worse, results in the under-production of honey and its resulting = higher-than-optimal market price. This, of course, takes honey from the = mouths of the poor who would be able to pay for it had you not privately = captured the benefits, without compensation, that others so arduously = invested in and delivered to your backyard. Honey raises antioxidant = levels and, from time immemorial, has been recognized for its = antimicrobial activity. A spoonful is more effective in cough = suppression than a whole bottle of some over-the-counter, chemical = laden, commercial cough syrup. If you have never heard about this it is because this is the part = of economics called externalities that global politicizers never seem to = get to in their curious and one-sided analysis. Externalities occur = when either the full range of costs or benefits created in a production = process are not able to be internalized in the production function and = revenue/cost stream of the producer. When pork is shipped to China from = the United States, it is underpriced according to the politicizers, = since the pollution and greenhouse gases off-loaded on a sweltering = world are not paid for in the private cost function of your farm. = Therefore, you are not accounting for all of your costs and therefore = produce too much and price it too low.=20 In the case of honey bees (notwithstanding that some industrial = honey bee owners do transport their hives to commercial orchards for a = fee), the full benefit of the production function of honey (namely the = pollination of fruit and flowering plants) cannot be charged for since = the bee doesn=92t leave a little bill on each of the flowers it visits, = although if it did, it would surely make out like a bandit since it has = a built-in incentivizer on its backside to motivate late payers.=20 Imagine if the full benefits of producing honey could be captured = by the bee keeper. The revenue to honey producers would increase = dramatically as would their profits, and the production of honey as well = as the beneficial activity of pollination would be expanded. People in = poorer nations would have a cheap antibiotic and a natural cough = suppressant at very low cost. Because free riders take the benefit = without paying, the globe is left with misallocated resources in the = form of underinvestment and therefore underproduction of these sweet = activities. This misallocation of resources results in a whole chain of very = unfortunate global consequences. Notwithstanding the increased coughing = heard round the world, the backwardly linked suppliers of honey bee = producers who sell the equipment, gloves, smokers and the wood to build = hives have less demand for their products and services. This results in = fewer purchases at the grocery stores, clothing stores, gas stations, = car dealers, etc. as smaller than competitively optimal employment = results in less money circulating in the local economy. Less is given = to charity and the resulting less than optimal employment means that the = rural communities where producers live undergo a kind of attrition = leading to tipping points where local populations cannot afford to = maintain a local hospital, post office, movie theatre and public = swimming pool.=20 Old timers watch their towns drying up as honey producers and = young people looking for a better future have to move to regional = population centers to avoid driving 50 miles daily to rent a good movie = or fill up their tanks. All of this because you failed to pay for the = services fairly and equitably rendered by the producers and decided to = steal their products at zero cost.=20 The only way to prevent this global rip-off is to tax everyone = with a tree and after confiscating 75% of it for administrative = purposes, deliver the rest to the honey bee producers. Editor's Note: Dr. DiPietre is a consultant from Columbia, = Missouri. His commentary is sponsored by Elanco Animal Health. To = comment on this article, go to: www.farms.com and click on chat: swine. This commentary is for informational purposes only. The opinions = and comments expressed herein represent the opinions of the author--they = do not necessarily reflect the opinion of Farms.com. This commentary is = not intended to provide individual advice to anyone. Farms.com will not = be liable for any errors or omissions in the information, or for any = damages or losses in any way related to this commentary. =20 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:13:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Bee Story on NBC National News today MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Including comments from Randy Oliver and Jeff Pettis. Randy mentioned that beekeepers hit with CCD two years in a row could be put out of business. Jeff said: "no clear picture" has emerged about what¹s causing CCD. Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:19:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Story on NBC National News today In-Reply-To: <487E9CA1.1D5D@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Randy mentioned that beekeepers hit with CCD two years in a row could be put out of business. And once out of business they can become Wal-Mart "greeters" or perhaps get jobs pushing carts. if all you know is beekeeping then what other industry needs those trained to keep bees? On your job application: 1. can raise queens 2. can make splits. 3. can move bees. 4.repair bee hives. 5. can assemble bee equipment, 6. knows how to extract honey from comb. 7. knows how to make comb honey. 8. pour beeswax. 10.etc. Commercial beekeepers are on the endangered species list and have been since WW2. Not a penny for beekeepers to rebuild outfits with (even in the way of loans with interest). >Jeff said: "no clear picture" has emerged about what¹s causing CCD. With 2 and a half million hives in the U.S. there will never be a clear picture. Maybe Jeff needs to contact J.--------. as he is positive he knows what is causing CCD. a Pathogen. I still hear that some hives do not have problems with nosema ceranae. Certainly not from what I have seen! N. ceranae soon infects the whole yard with dwindling hives and many crashing. solution. use fumidil drench as per label if bees will not take feed. Repeat as needed and in cases of high nosema ceranae spore counts the bees may not thrive until comb is cleared of spores. We see hive populations many times dropping fast when corn starts to tassel. However usually only when the bees are surrounded by huge corn acreage with little other pollen sources. one solution: quit letting corn growers use pesticide treated seed year after year in the same field. Beekeepers in Florida reported huge problems with bees in orange groves and tell me the illegal use of temik is responsible. They say growers are able to buy temik for other label uses but are using on citrus. solution: ban temik in the U.S. like in the U.K. We know that all comb which has had fluvalinate & coumaphos used needs rotated out of brood nest and replaced. solution: stop selling those products. We know that if you use Miteaway 2 that varroa control fails between 4-5 months of heavy brood rearing ( David Vanderdussen) Solution: commercial migratory Beeks need to treat twice a year. You can not treat before almonds and then treat again in September if using soft treatments. We know that if your equipment is full of nosema ceranae spores you will most likely see nosema ceranae control problems fast when new bees are introduced to the comb. solution: acetic acid. I am only a beekeeper but if I was the representative of the USDA-ARS the above would be my advice to beeks. Use at your own risk and may or may not be the advice of others on BEE-L! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:30:58 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: National Geographic - "Bees Enlisted to Attack Crows in Tokyo" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does this seem slightly far fetched to anyone else but me? http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/07/080714-birds-bees.html **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:42:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Simms Subject: Re: National Geographic - "Bees Enlisted to Attack Crows in Tokyo" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This bee-havior does not seem far fetched to me.=A0 I have been reporting t= o Dr. Larry Connor for more than two years now that I see bees in flight ch= ange course to chase off dark colored birds flying through the apiary.=A0 I= have never seen a bee succeed at physically engaging the bird, but there i= s no doubt that they will pursue them.=0AEric in Howe, TX=0A=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:13:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nick Behrens Subject: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Not sure if the list has heard this, but it was just sent to our department. Nick Iowa Germany's emergency ban - ----------------------- The German Federal Office of Consumer Protection and Food Safety (BVL) suspended the registration of 8 neonicotinoid pesticide seed treatment products used in oilseed rape and sweetcorn. A few weeks after honeybee keepers in the southern state of Baden Wuerttemberg reported a wave of honeybee deaths linked to one of the pesticides, clothianidin (1,2). Professor Joe Cummins had warned specifically against this class of new pesticides (3) (Requiem for the Honeybee, SiS 34), widely used in dressing seeds and in sprays, and "highly toxic to insects including bees at very low concentrations." His contribution to ISIS' Briefing in the European Parliament in June 2007 (4) (Scientists and MEPs for a GM free Europe, SiS 35) drew attention to the danger of sub-lethal doses of neonicotinoids and Bt biopesticides in GM [genetically modified] crops, which could act synergistically with pathogenic fungi in causing colony collapse disorder in the honeybee, and resulted in a question to the European Commission by German MEP (Member of the European Parliament) Hiltrud Breyer (5) (Emergency Motion on Protecting the Honeybee, SiS 35), shortly after she had submitted an emergency motion to ban the neonicotinoids. Unequivocal evidence of pesticide poisoning - ------------------------------------------- Walter Haefeker, president of the European Professional Beekeepers Association, reporting to Chemical and Engineering News said (1), "Beekeepers in the region started finding piles of dead bees at the entrance of hives in early May [2008], right around the time corn seeding takes place." "It's a real bee emergency," Manfred Hederer, president of the German Professional Beekeepers' Association told The Guardian (2), "50-60 per cent of the bees have died on average and some beekeepers have lost all their hives." The incriminating evidence was so convincing that a press release from the Julius Kuehn Institute (JKI), the German federal agricultural research agency, stated: "It can unequivocally be concluded that a poisoning of the bees is due to the rub-off of the pesticide ingredient clothianidin from the corn seeds." Tests on dead bees showed that 99 per cent had a build-up of clothianidin (sold in Europe under the trade name Poncho) produced by Bayer CropScience, approved for use in Germany in 2004, and with some restrictions in the US in 2003. The pesticide was applied to the seeds in advance of being planted or sprayed while in the field. The company blamed an application error by the seed company, which failed to use a substance that glues the pesticide to the seed, resulting in the chemical getting into the air. Bayer spokesman Dr Julian Little told the BBC Farming Today that misapplication is highly unusual. It transpired that this year's [2008] corn seed in Baden Wuerttemberg was coated with a double dose to counteract a corn beetle infestation (2). Unusual circumstances yes, but the lethal effect of the pesticides has been suspected for a long time. Beekeepers had pointed the finger for a long time - ------------------------------------------------- According to the report in The Guardian (1), a group of beekeepers from North Dakota in the United States is taking Bayer CropScience to court after losing thousands of honeybee colonies in 1995, during a period when oilseed rape in the area was treated with imidacloprid. A third of honeybees were killed by what has since been dubbed colony collapse disorder. Imidacloprid is Bayer's best-selling pesticide sold under the name Gaucho in France, but has been banned as a seed dressing for sunflowers in that country since 1999, when a third of French honeybees died following its widespread use; the ban on its use in sweetcorn was imposed 5 years later. A few months ago, the company's application for clothianidin was rejected by French authorities. Bayer has always maintained that imidacloprid is safe for bees if correctly applied. "Extensive internal and international scientific studies have confirmed that Gaucho does not present a hazard to bees," said Utz Klages, a spokesman for Bayer CropScience. Last year (2007), Germany's Green MEP, Hiltrud Breyer tabled an emergency motion calling for this family of pesticides to be banned across Europe while their role in killing honeybees is thoroughly investigated. Her action follows calls for a ban from beekeeping associations and environmental organisations across Europe. As Cummins pointed out (3), these pesticides are nerve poisons and inhibit the brain enzyme acetylcholine esterase. Sub-lethal levels of the pesticide, which fails to kill the bee will nevertheless impair its ability to return to the hive. Furthermore, these and other pesticides also impair the bee's immune system, leaving it much more susceptible to attacks by parasitic fungi and other disease agents (6, 7) (Parasitic Fungi and Pesticides Act Synergistically to Kill Honeybees? SiS 35, Mystery of Disappearing Honeybees, SiS 34). References - ---------- 1. Alison Benjamin. Pesticides: Germany bans chemicals linked to honeybee devastation. The Guardian, Fri 23 May 2008. 2. Sarah Everts. Honeybee Loss. Chemical and Engineering News (C&EN), Wed 21 May 2008. 3. Cummins J. Requiem for the honeybee. Science in Society 2007; 34: 37-8. 4. Burcher S, Ho MW. Scientists and MEPs for a GM free Europe. Science in Society 2007; 35: 20-5. 5. Hiltrud B. Collapse of honeybee colonies worldwide. Written Question to the European Commission. Science in Society 2007; 35: 39. 6. Cummins J. Parasitic fungi and pesticides act synergistically to kill honeybees? Science in Society 2007; 35: 38. 7. Ho MW, Cummins J. Mystery of disappearing honeybees. Science in Society 2007; 34: 35-6. - -- communicated by: ProMED-mail rapporteur Mary Marshall [Clothianidin or (E)-1-(2-chloro-1,3-thiazol-5-ylmethyl)-3-methyl-2-nitroguanidine is an insecticide belonging to the nitroguanidine, a member of the subgroup of nicotinoids and is owned by Bayer Corporation. Clothianidin is registered for seed treatment use on corn and canola. Based upon a battery of acute toxicity studies, Poncho 600 is classified as Toxicity Category III. Clothianidin is classified as a "not likely" human carcinogen. There are no to low concerns and no residual uncertainties with regard to pre- and/or postnatal toxicity from clothianidin, and the FQPA (Food Quality Protection Act) 10X Safety Factor has been removed. However, due to evidence of effects on the rat immune system and that juvenile rats appear to be more susceptible to these effects, and due to the lack of a developmental immunotoxicity study, a 10X database uncertainty factor is applied to all dietary exposure endpoints. Available data indicate that clothianidin on corn and canola should result in minimal acute toxic risk to birds. However, assessments show that exposure to treated seeds through ingestion may result in chronic toxic risk to non-endangered and endangered small birds (such as songbirds) and acute/chronic toxicity risk to non-endangered and endangered mammals. Clothianidin has the potential for toxic chronic exposure to honeybees, as well as other nontarget pollinators, through the translocation of clothianidin residues in nectar and pollen. Clothianidin should not present a direct acute or chronic risk to freshwater and estuarine/marine fish, or a risk to terrestrial or aquatic vascular and nonvascular plants. The fate and disposition of clothianidin in the environment suggest a compound that is a systemic insecticide that is persistent and mobile, stable to hydrolysis, and has potential to leach to ground water, as well as runoff to surface waters. Clothianidin is practically non-toxic to the bobwhite quail on an acute basis (LD50 (median lethal dose) greater than 2000 mg/kg) and practically non-toxic to the mallard duck and the bobwhite quail on a sub-acute basis (5-day LC50 (median lethal concentration) greater than 5040 ppm (parts per million) and 5230 ppm, respectively). However, exposure to treated seeds through ingestion may result in chronic toxic risk to birds (exposure of 525 ppm adversely affected eggshell thickness for Bobwhite quail). Clothianidin is moderately toxic to small mammals on an acute oral basis (LD50 greater than 389 mg/kg). Chronic exposure to treated seeds through ingestion may result in reproductive and/or developmental effects. Clothianidin is highly toxic to honeybees on an acute contact basis (LD50 greater than 0.0439 microgram/bee). It has the potential for toxic chronic exposure to honeybees, as well as other nontarget pollinators, through the translocation of clothianidin residues in nectar and pollen. In honeybees, the effects of this toxic chronic exposure may include lethal and/or sub-lethal effects in the larvae and reproductive effects in the queen. Imidacloprid is a relatively new insecticide, having first been registered for use in the UK in 1993 and in the United States in 1994. It is a systemic insecticide, chemically related to the tobacco toxin, nicotine. It works by blocking the elements of the insect nervous system, which are more susceptible to the toxic effects of imidacloprid than those of warm-blooded animals. Imidacloprid is manufactured by Bayer CropScience. Since its launch in 1991, products containing imidacloprid have gained registrations in about 120 countries and are marketed for use on over 140 agricultural crops. With annual sales of more than Euro 600 million (2001), imidacloprid is one of the top selling products of Bayer CropScience. It is marketed under a variety of names including Gaucho, Admire, Confidor, and Winner. Imidacloprid has a wide range of uses -- soil, seed, and foliar. It is used to control sucking insects such as rice-, leaf-, and plant hoppers, aphids, thrips, and whitefly. It is also effective against soil insects, termites, and some species of biting insects, such as rice water weevil and Colorado beetle, but has no effect on nematodes or spider mites. It can be used as seed dressing, as soil treatment, and as foliar treatment in different crops including rice, cotton, cereals, maize, sugar beet, potatoes, vegetables, citrus fruit, apples and pears, and stone fruit. In European countries such as France, UK, and Holland, imidacloprid is widely used as an insecticide in sugar beet crops. Imidacloprid can be phytotoxic (toxic to plants) if not used according to manufacturers instructions, and it has a tendency to reduce seedling emergence and crop vigour. There have been restrictions on the use of Gaucho (imidacloprid) in France since the 1990s because of concerns over the product's toxicity to bees. In January 1999 the government suspended Gaucho for use on sunflowers. The insecticide retained its authorisation for use on cereals, sugar beet, and maize. The Ministry of Agriculture decision ruled that in the absence of sufficient technical and scientific evidence linking the use of Gaucho to the decline in the bee population, a temporary suspension of the product nationwide would help 'limit the risks of exposing bees to the potentially detrimental effects of Gaucho'. Early in 2003, the Ministry decided to prolong Gaucho's ban on sunflowers by 3 years as 'no distinctive scientific factor has emerged reversing this decision.' Bayer has expressed regret that the ban on sunflowers has not been lifted as 'no improvement has been observed' in French bee populations since the product was suspended in 1999. It is now thought that the replacement insecticide fipronil, is also having an impact on bee populations. There have been similar concerns raised in Canada. Prince Edward Island beekeepers have reported serious losses of bees, which they believe since 1995 is linked to residues from imidacloprid. Potatoes on the island have been treated with soil applications of Admire (imidacloprid) to prevent Colorado potato beetle. It is believed that the rotational clover and canola crops have sublethal residues of imidacloprid in the pollen and nectar, which cause slow death of bees in the colony. It may be that bees on the island may be affected by the cumulative effects of applications of Admire. Beekeepers have experienced high colony losses of 50-80 per cent since 1999. New Brunswick has been increasing the use of Admire since 1998. Beekeepers in potato areas have reported large losses of 50-60 percent in 2001 and 2002, which may be attributable to the use of Admire. Similar figures are reported in potato areas of Ontario. The reports from the chemical company that bees are sensitive to these chemicals indicate there are some insecticidal toxicity studies done. It is likely through these studies that it was identified that imidacloprid kills fleas, and later became the product marketed as "Advantage" by Bayer. However, bees are sensitive but this article provides presumptive conclusion these chemicals are responsible for colony collapse disorder. But it is not a study that provides conclusive and reproducible evidence. Nevertheless, the ban from bee areas may be extremely important to preserving the bee colonies. Portions of this comment were extracted from and . - Mod.TG] [see also: 2007 - --- Colony collapse disorder, apis - USA: (FL) 20071026.3490 Undiagnosed die-off, apis - USA (Multistate) (03): agent identified 20070907.2960 Undiagnosed die-off, apis - USA : (Multistate) (02) 20070503.1435 Undiagnosed die-off, apis - USA (Multistate) 20070208.0497] **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:28:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Bartlett Subject: Re: National Geographic - "Bees Enlisted to Attack Crows in Tokyo" Comments: To: james.fischer@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - "Bees Enlisted to Attack Crows in Tokyo" Not to me. I remember cleaning fish at my cleaning station over a tidal pond. I didn't realize that I was knocking into a wasp nest with the hose as I was cleaning the fish. All I had on was a pair of shorts, a hat and shoes with BLACK socks. The wasps could have stung me anyplace but they only stung me at the ankles through the socks. Billy Bee **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:11:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DAVID ADAMS Subject: Re: Bee Story on NBC National News today In-Reply-To: <33273747710E446EB720B7B4328E13DC@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Beekeepers in Florida reported huge problems with bees in orange groves and tell me the illegal use of temik is responsible. They say growers are able to buy temik for other label uses but are using on citrus. solution: ban temik in the U.S. like in the U.K." Bob, you must be mistaken about temik,it's labeled and legal. Here is a typical spray program, that is in this months(july 2008) Citrus Industry magizine, citrusindustry.net. This is put out in florida, I'm sure the Cali folks have a different program. As you can see it's a pretty nice mix of some pretty poisons for beekeepers to be around.This program is because of Psyllids, which spread Greening disease,which kills the trees ,I won't go into the disease,which can be googled easily. Month dec,jan Fenpropathrim(danitol) jan,feb Aldicarb (temik) april Carbaryl(sevin) may,june *Abamectin(agrimek,abacus) IMIDACLOPRID july Dimethoate aug,sept oil/Carbaryl(sevin) sept, oct * envido/IMIDACLOPRID I forget the pounds per acre of temik, but if you google it you can find the label, of which it says it will not harm bees ,not the I believe it, but here in Florida citrus has more pull than Us bees so they can do things that we (beekeepers) would be fined for ,such as spray against label laws. Go figure. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:32:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: National Geographic - "Bees Enlisted to Attack Crows in Tokyo" In-Reply-To: <738035.21390.qm@web36603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > I have been reporting to Dr. Larry Connor for more than two years > now that I see bees in flight change course to chase off dark > colored birds flying through the apiary. In my mating yard, bees chase House Sparrows, Blackbirds, and even butterflies. I've always seen bees chasing butterflies as they fly through the apiary. Mike **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:10:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dr. Joe Cummins http://www.i-sis.org.uk/index.php is often cited as some kind of neonicotinoids expert. yet I find no evidence that he has done any studies or collected any data or published any scientific papers on the subject . Am I missing something or is he mainly an environmental activist with a Dr. in front of his name? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:14:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: National Geographic - "Bees Enlisted to Attack Crows in Tokyo" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In late summer in a field of buckwheat, we have observed 1000's of butterflies competing with honeybees for nectar and seen our bees chasing butterflies also. it was one of the most amazing sites I have seen as a beekeeper **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:36:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 10:35:19 EDT, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > >I'm losing patience with these proclamations exonerating stationary >beekeepers (we know that they get CCD too) and pretending that CCD is a problem of >migratory beekeepers, who only experience CCD when in CA. The evidence is >clearly to the contrary. > Jerry Can you please share some of the "evidence" to back this statement up? I find it very hard to believe that the majority of hives affected by CCD are not owned by a relatively small number of beekeepers who are migratory. Are you implying that the numbers of CCD lost hives by non-migratory beekeepers is even significant in numbers? I'm curious as to what is the migratory vs non-migratory CCD losses in numbers of hives and number of beekeepers affected respectively? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:01:47 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yet more "reporting" on CCD that lacks basic fact checking. I'm surprised at Pro-MED, as they tend to get the story straight, or at least refrain from including wild speculation in their reports on diseases. Perhaps PRO-Med will issue a retraction and follow up with the many outlets who repeated this misinformation as if it were "fact" or "news". After reporting on the German incident, which was covered in much more detail here on Bee-L here: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0807b&L=bee-l&T=0&P=9898 The report makes the error of linking unrelated events by making them part of a continuous storyline: > a group of beekeepers from North Dakota... is taking Bayer CropScience > to court after losing thousands of honeybee colonies in 1995, during > a period when oilseed rape in the area was treated with imidacloprid. A true statement. Admire (imidacloprid) was sprayed on crops, bees foraged on those crops, and pesticide kills resulted. Fairly straightforward. The beekeepers are suing everyone they can, including the maker of the pesticide. > A third of honeybees were killed by what has since been dubbed colony > collapse disorder. Misleading in the extreme. The placement of the statement gives the impression that imidacloprid pesticide kills have "since been dubbed colony collapse disorder". The actual evidence found to date from sample analysis shows exactly the opposite, that pesticides have nothing at all to do with CCD. > Imidacloprid is Bayer's best-selling pesticide sold under the name > Gaucho in France, but has been banned as a seed dressing for sunflowers > ...when a third of French honeybees died following its widespread use; And high losses have continued in France even after the ban of the pesticide, illustrating neatly that the original accusations were misplaced. > the ban on its use in sweetcorn was imposed 5 years later. A few months > ago, the company's application for clothianidin was rejected by > French authorities. Yet again, placement of the statements about a pesticide tends to give the impression that pesticides have something to do with a disease of honeybees, one clearly caused by a collection of pathogens that are known to kill otherwise healthy bees even in lab conditions. > Professor Joe Cummins had warned specifically against this class > of new pesticides (Requiem for the Honeybee)... I think Peter Borst said it best here: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0806D&L=BEE-L&P=R2472&D=0&H =0&I=-3&O=T&T=0 "Joe Cummins is not a "key bee expert", and he is using the honey bee's problems to advance his agenda" But here's the punchline you've all been waiting for - the author of the article has extensive prior experience with the putting of one's foot in one's mouth. Kid you not, this is what Pro-MED says about her: MARY MARSHALL European Union funded Foot & Mouth Disease and Classical Swine Fever Coordination Action participant - UK But the level of misinformation being spread by those who wish to leverage the plight of honey bees for their own agenda is starting to overwhelm the factual information. Even Bee-L is not immune, as illustrated by this quote made about the book "A Spring Without Bees": > even if there is a lack of science behind the book's claims - > banning the use of lawn products would be a great day. So, even when there is: a) No science at all behind certain claims b) Lots of well-done science to refute the claims the claims are still thought to be "worthy", even by regular readers of Bee-L, where we tend to be perhaps too hard on speculation, fuzzy thinking, and jumping to conclusions. The problem, of course, is that, just like France, the US could ban any number of pesticides, but this would not solve the basic problem of Colony Collapse Disorder, or the more basic problem of all the OTHER exotic, invasive pests, pathogens, and parasites of bees that have come to our shores since the mid-1980s with all the "World Trade" that has been perpetrated upon us. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:19:36 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: National Geographic - "Bees Enlisted to Attack Crows in Tokyo" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I see bees in flight change course to chase > off dark colored birds flying through the apiary. > I have never seen a bee succeed at physically > engaging the bird, but there is no doubt that > they will pursue them. My dubious view of the Tokyo project was based upon the relative airspeeds of birds versus bees. But bees fly at about 8 to 10 MPH, and birds have much faster airspeeds, on the order of 15 to 20 MPH minimum. So how are the bees going to pursue any bird? Further, several types of birds are known to swoop across hive entrances, snapping up bees with each pass. Clearly, bees can't change course fast enough to avoid being eaten by a bird, so how would they be able to change course quickly enough to "attack" or otherwise drive off a bird? Could the bees be attempting evasive maneuvers to avoid the birds? Can you identify the type of birds? Note that even Monty Python would view the Tokyo project as dubious, in that they made clear to everyone in "Monty Python And The Holy Grail" that the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow is roughly 11 meters per second (or 24 mph). And that's an unladen EUROPEAN swallow, of course. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:52:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Story on NBC National News today In-Reply-To: <1070819721.4632511216321889372.JavaMail.root@md15.embarq.synacor.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello David & All, David said: > Bob, you must be mistaken about temik,it's labeled and legal. Here is a > typical spray program, that is in this months(july 2008) Citrus Industry > magizine, citrusindustry.net. > jan,feb Aldicarb (temik) real nice. Apply a systemic pesticide on orange while the fruit is on the tree ready for harvest. Last time the citrus industry was able to keep the aldicarb in oranges quiet I have been told. The FDA can't find the source of our tomato or ground beef problems so why would we think they would find aldicarb in oranges and orange juice. >f you google it you can find the label, of which it says it will not harm >bees ,not the I believe it, but here in Florida citrus has more pull than >Us bees so they can do things that we (beekeepers) would be fined for ,such >as spray against label laws. It sure would be a shame if a lab report on aldicarb in orange juice would find its way into the media. . Another solution would be to not produce orange blossom honey. I have heard from a few migratory beeks which are dropping moving into orange until the temick issue is resolved. I have heard from beeks which limped out of the orange groves last spring. The growers told said beeks that they used temick but the label said temick was safe around bees. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 06:56:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: resistance happens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > The last decade has seen the inexorable proliferation of a host of antibiotic-resistant bacteria, or bad bugs ... The problem was predictable--"resistance happens," as Karen Bush, an anti-infectives researcher at Johnson and Johnson puts it -- but that doesn't make it any easier to deal with. In 2002, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimated that at least 90,000 deaths a year in the United States could be attributed to bacterial infections, more than half caused by bugs resistant to at least one commonly used antibiotic. -- The Bacteria Fight Back Science 18 July 2008: **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:00:41 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: 1885 - The Dangers of Enlarging our Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Now, I'm not attempting to get involved in another > small cell/large cell dispute, BUT the article does > show there were concerns about the dangers of > enlarging our bees as early as 1885. BUT the article is clearly >>> SATIRE <<< !! Need I point out that two "embryos" would never become one bee? Other heavy-handed clues abound: 1) "two a two or three pound insect" 2) "stings capable of penetrating anything less than an inch of chilled steel armor" 3) "It is true that honey is used to a small extent in the arts" 4) "To upset a hive of four-pound bees... would be simply murder"... "involv[ing] the trouble of a trial and acquittal in a court of law." I think that someone's leg was pulled here. It seems that someone has been "punked" from beyond the grave in an earnest attempt to find something, anything at all in support of a pre-conceived notion about "small cell", "natural cell", whatever. Regardless, how could any attempt to "enlarge" bees, no matter what the methods, have any impact on isolated nations? If neither bees nor foundation were exported from nations where the "enlargement" was claimed to have been done, why wouldn't those bees still be smaller, and thereby be "mite resistant"? Lets look at the Caribbean, as this is clearly a place where both poverty and remote locations kept their bee stocks isolated, and kept their hives free of foundation and other purchased items from the industrialized world. Their bees are being ravaged by the arrival of varroa, just as ours were and still are. Why aren't their bees able to survive? The answer is simple - the claimed "enlargement" had no impact, and cell size does not bestow any magical properties on the bees that hatch from the cells of various sizes. If even part of what the "small-cell" advocates claimed were true, hives in poor and isolated areas remote from the US and Europe would be the source of bees with: a) smaller cell sizes b) inherent resistance to varroa c) inherent resistance to other things which small cell bees are claimed to be resistant or immune People who never had the money to buy foundation or import bees would be the salvation of us all. Instead, they are desperate for help with mite control. Why then, should anyone buy a story about bees worldwide somehow being "enlarged" by an effort in the industrialized world to modify products not available to the "3rd World"? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:18:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: resistance happens In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> The last decade has seen the inexorable proliferation of a host >> of antibiotic-resistant bacteria, or bad bugs ... The problem was >> predictable--"resistance happens," .... >> at least 90,000 deaths a year in the United States could be >> attributed to bacterial infections, more than half caused by bugs >> resistant to at least one commonly used antibiotic. The way most of these read is that we are in a fix because of developing resistance. Consider the world before antibiotics. With population of 300,000,000, to have only 90,000 deaths a year in 3 million people from bacterial infections would have been looked at as a blessing before penicillin. The battle is not being won by the bacteria. There have been new developments that could short circuit bacteria's ability to develop resistance. We are living longer, healthier, and fuller lives than ever in history. Why are so many so glum? I'm not. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:21:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DAVID ADAMS Subject: Re: Bee Story on NBC National News today In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, your right about putting all the systemic pesticides on and into the trees. By the way the temik is injected into the soil, under the canopy of the tree and it uptakes it ,so heavy rain can in theory, leach it to somewhere it should not be. I'm not a tree hugger, but I think we have way to much dependence on some of these chemicals. Interesting enough is that with all the pesticides one of the most used things in brazil for combating greening is copper and spray oil. That was a main stay here back in the 60's and 70's before the swing to all the new chemicals, which kind of tells me ,alot of the old school methods would still work if it weren't for good advertising and following your neighbors chemical truck. In regard to bees leaving citrus groves beat up, the worst problems came from growers spraying all of the different pesticides ,against the label, while bees were in the groves. And if you don't like it alot of guys were told to leave or some were told not to come back after the bloom in spring of 06 because the growers did'nt want any liability from beekeepers claiming spray losses.Even if you were in a grove which was not spraying during bloom, someone in the area might have been.You would know when you seen all the dead bees on the ground.Then they would give you a day or two to clear out at the end or get sprayed,for real . I've heard of a few guys that come here from georgia for citrus that have have alot of queenless hives once they got back for Gallberry, and blame it on picking up spray damage. Just another hurdle to deal with ,along with the rest . As for the OJ lab study, I'd be interested to see alot of our foods (friut and veggies) looked at by some private folks, I think the USDA and FDA , don't want to know and are lobbied heavy by big chemical brother not to want to look to hard. WHERE THERE ARE FRUITS AND NUTS THERE ARE BEEKEEPERS **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:01:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:01:47 -0400, James Fischer wrote: >But the level of misinformation being spread by those who wish >to leverage the plight of honey bees for their own agenda is >starting to overwhelm the factual information. Even Bee-L is >not immune, as illustrated by this quote made about the book >"A Spring Without Bees": > >> even if there is a lack of science behind the book's claims - >> banning the use of lawn products would be a great day. > my quote so I will respond did I attach any "claims" about bees to that statement? Jim you constantly put people down and turn words around to fit your own claims. it would be a great day for everyone, children, adults, wildlife etc if chemlawn and associated products were removed from the market place. there i said it, no science behind it just an opinion. or maybe you have some science to quote why it would be a great day to continue the use of the products for mere cosmetic reasons? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:40:38 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Price on the Rice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.skamberg.com/honey.htm -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:44:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Bee Story on NBC National News today In-Reply-To: <33273747710E446EB720B7B4328E13DC@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob, I've been following your discussion with Brian re corn pollen with interest. It is amazing how different the situations appear to be in your two states! In one, bees apparently rarely collect corn pollen, and in the other they pack combs full of it. > We see hive populations many times dropping fast when corn starts to tassel. However usually only when the bees are surrounded by huge corn acreage with little other pollen sources. I'm trying to sort out why N ceranae can be such a problem to some colonies, yet not to others. Your statement above may be a clue. N ceranae appears to be a major problem when the bees are under nutritional stress--read that, lack of protein. Corn, and sunflower, pollen are poor protein sources due to incomplete amino acid balance. It may be that nosema causes problems then due to malnutrition of the colonies. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:14:29 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Jim you constantly put people down and turn > words around to fit your own claims. I merely quoted exactly what was said, citing it as an example of the "science be damned, let's ban pesticides and herbicides" view, which was exactly the view put forth. No "put down" was even attempted. Here is exactly what was said, and what I quoted in full: >> even if there is a lack of science behind the book's claims - >> banning the use of lawn products would be a great day. I "turned around" nothing at all, and the proof is that the same claim was repeated yet again, as follows: > or maybe you have some science to quote why it would be > a great day to continue the use of the products for mere > cosmetic reasons? The qualifying phrase "mere cosmetic reasons" is a significant change from the broader claim quoted above about "lawn products" in general, but it changes nothing in terms of the rationale, and justifies no ban. "Lawn products", regardless of intent, are not going to make any impact on any significant number of colonies, as the overwhelming bulk of hives never come anywhere near suburbia. While a complete ban on all "lawn products" might make a few hobby beekeepers happy, it would do little else. It would impact maybe 3% to 5% of US colonies in total, and a negligible percentage of the pollination and honey production, perhaps 1% of the total. As for the usefulness of "lawn products", I need cite only a single plant - so-called "Switch Grass" or "Orchard Grass" common in rural areas of VA. The roots go deeper than excavated foundations, and one cannot keep the stuff at bay with less than an herbicide. If left unchecked, it can choke out a home garden, and also choke out a truck garden crop. It can destroy a sidewalk or driveway in a matter of weeks if left unchallenged. So, one man's "cosmetic reason" is another man's last line of defense to protect his families veggie supply for 2008/2009. Who are we to presume to judge? Times are getting harder, so I expect backyard gardening to take off again, just as it does whenever the economy falters. Sometimes, one NEEDS things like pesticides and herbicides. Need I mention Kudzu? Purple Loosestrife? Tartarian honeysuckle? Russian olive? Siberian elm? Tree-of-heaven? English ivy? Leafy spurge? Mile-a-minute? Tamarisk? Melaleuca trees? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:15:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Story on NBC National News today In-Reply-To: <1449903172.4740001216390888117.JavaMail.root@md15.embarq.synacor.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello David & All, > Bob, your right about putting all the systemic pesticides on and into the > trees. By the way the temik is injected into the soil, under the canopy of > the tree and it uptakes it ,so heavy rain can in theory, leach it to > somewhere it should not be. For those which are not following David and I. I will explain further. Temik comes in bags and is broadcast under orange trees by a spreader. it is then taken up by the tree and is found in all parts of the tree. (including the nectar & pollen). The Temik label was changed from the bag and label I looked at in Florida doing research for my article. The first label was a wide open anytime label. The new label restricts the distance temik can be used from water wells .( 300 ft. if I remember correctly) I also thought the new label restricted use to certain times of the year and I thought not at harvest time. Oranges are an interesting fruit. Oranges can be harvested even while blooms for the next crop are on the tree. I always pick a bunch of oranges to bring back in January and according to what David posted aldicarb can be legally applied then. Wow! How quick we forget the aldicarb in orange juice/oranges problems I was raised in Florida , have owned property in Florida, travel to Florida yearly for both business and pleasure and have many friends and people I went to school with in Florida. I love Florida! The water table in most places is around 14 feet which is why you do not see houses with basements! On our "ranch" we owned in the panhandle we drilled our own water well with one of those drills advertized in Mother Earth News (magazine). Had our water tested and was fine to drink. Hundreds of thousands of those ground water wells in Florida. The reason chlordane was banned but yet aldicarb is allowed. Maybe the public is not aware? Now the number one Florida State concern with temik has been aldicarb getting into ground water supplies. Killing bees (of which to me and Florida beekeepers is common knowledge) is kind of swept under the rug by growers and in my opinion would never be enough to ban aldicarb. However as I said in my Neonicotinoid article could spell the end of Florida being the largest producer of Orange Blossom Honey in the world. Google temik/aldicarb and in my opinion you will quickly see why the U.K. banned temik. The first label allowed year around use on citrus. Can you imagine the buildup of aldicarb from running trucks through the groves blasting aldicarb on the ground every couple months. The product was not carefully placed in a ring around the tree from what my sources have said and overlapping in areas was common. So aldicarb turned up in nectar,pollen, oranges and orange juice ( source orange growers). Then the label changed. However as David pointed out the growers can still pick up the phone and buy temik by the truck load and as David points out ( confirmed by my sources) old habits are hard to break and some are still using temik whenever they please. yes my friends beeks can simply not bring bees into orange. Florida home owners can buy bottled water. or as I have suggested temik can be banned, all temik recalled and growers can go back to what they used before temik (which did not contaminate ground water and kill bees). Was not found in oranges and orange juice. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:46:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany and ugly lawns and ... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > or maybe you have some science to quote why it would be a great day to continue the use of the > products for mere cosmetic reasons? Interesting that you want the burden to be on the consumer to prove they need it rather than the government to prove they do not. I am sure that women do not need makeup for the same reason, cosmetic in nature only and all those chemicals applied not to a lawn, but directly to their faces. Love to see the organic people fight that fight. Your proposal is the nanny state taken to its illogical extreme. Bill Truesdell (Since I will be turned in to the sexist police by comparing women and cosmetics to lawns...Did you hear that they found the oldest human fossil jawbone. The jawbone was well over several million years old. They determined it was a woman's since it was still moving.) Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:07:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: Pesticides on Sweet Corn In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10807180844u145dedb6yd5baf90805c66ca7@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This has nothing to do with CCD, NC or even beekeeping, but the link included here shows how many thousands of pounds of pesticide were applied to sweet corn in 2006 in just 14 states. The chart does not show what pesticides were used, or when in the crop cycle...but the numbers are telling. http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/ers/SweetCorn/TABLE92.xls Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 Kim@BeeCulture.com www.BeeCulture.com No virus found by AVG at Root Candles in this outgoing email. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.523 / Virus Database: 270.5.1/1560 - Release Date: 7/18/2008 6:47 AM **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:15:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bee Story on NBC National News today and, as usual, is way off topic but familiar territory In-Reply-To: <1449903172.4740001216390888117.JavaMail.root@md15.embarq.synacor.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DAVID ADAMS wrote: >Interesting enough is that with all the pesticides one > of the most used things in brazil for combating greening is copper > and spray oil. That was a main stay here back in the 60's and 70's > before the swing to all the new chemicals, which kind of tells me > ,alot of the old school methods would still work if it weren't for > good advertising and following your neighbors chemical truck. Might also be that copper is not the best thing to use since it can build up in the soil and kill earthworms and other organisms, as well as drain off and is deadly to aquatic life. It can also cosmetically damage the fruit. It is also taken up by the plant (systemic anyone) and "heavy metals" are not something you want to add to the list of ingredients. Copper sprays are still around in the US and sold by the same bad people that advertise it just like the other chemicals. Old school methods did a lot of damage but then, we did not live very long anyway, so who cared. I found this on the net as it relates to high concentrations of copper in the diet. "When the personality is not fully integrated or the copper becomes too high, negative traits show up. These include spaciness, racing thoughts, living in a dream world, naiveté, childishness, excessive emotions, sentimentality, a tendency to depression, fearfulness, hidden anger and resentments, phobias, psychosis and violence. Artists, inventors and other high-copper types often "live on the edge", in part due to their high copper level. The copper personality tends to accumulate copper easily. Copper functions as a psychological defense mechanism. It causes one to detach slightly from reality. This provides relief from stress for the sensitive individual. It works well as long as the copper does not become too high. Very high copper can cause a psychotic break from reality, a type of schizophrenia." Sounds like we have a lot of high copper people on the BeeL. So I would not want to use Brazil as a model for much anything, since they revel in the fact that they have saved on the use of trucks and diesel for sugar cane production by using peasants instead. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:09:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DAVID ADAMS Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany Comments: To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com In-Reply-To: <012a01c8e90a$8104f670$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sometimes, one NEEDS things like pesticides and herbicides. Need I mention Kudzu? Purple Loosestrife? Tartarian honeysuckle? Russian olive? Siberian elm? Tree-of-heaven? English ivy? Leafy spurge? Mile-a-minute? Tamarisk? Melaleuca trees? Hey ,Easy Mister, leave the Melaleuca trees off the weedkiller list, and Brazilian pepper,that's our fall honey crop here in good FLA/USA. Even if the state and tree huggers on the way left say it's EVIL and must be killed. WHERE THERE ARE FRIUTS AND NUTS THERE ARE BEEKEEPERS **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:23:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany and ugly lawns and ... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit the movement to ban cosmetic chem use on lawns started in Canada in Quebec and then spread to Ontario this spring. many eastern US cities were the early adapters. http://www.beyondpesticides.org/dailynewsblog/?p=371 here's a list of US Cities on board, banning the use on city public land. http://www.beyondpesticides.org/lawn/activist/index.htm#locali you can make fun of it if you want, but we're talking a large tonnage of materials that could be taken out of the environment. oh yeah - BTW - lots of women's cosmetics are full of nasty materials too. some of the more informed women buy all plant based products in a rapidly growing market. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:45:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Pesticides on Sweet Corn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kim, in what ways do you consider this data "telling"? http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/ers/SweetCorn/TABLE92.xls My interpretation is as follows: Example: ILLINOIS: Chart shows 7,000 acres (11 square miles) of sweet corn were planted. 4,800 of these acres (69%) were treated with 2,600 lbs of insecticide = ~1/2 pound per acre = a only a handful amount per year and most likely mainly granular insecticide for corn rootworm control (granules couldn't harm pollinating insects). The chart also shows practically no fungicide was used, but but considerable herbicide was applied. But corn herbicides are applied only once or twice a year either pre-plant or when the plants are small, hence adult pollinating insects are not actively foraging the fields and exposed to the spray (although some caterpillars feeding on the treated weeds could end up dying of starvation as the weeds wither). I find nectar flowers and nectar feeding insects and pollinators are reliably common along the margins of corn fields in the upper Midwest: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/syr3.jpg Close up: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/syr2.jpg Sometimes explosively abundant: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/iowac.jpg (these butterflies breed in the State of Iowa, they are not merely migrants passing through). Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:53:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Story on NBC National News today In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10807180844u145dedb6yd5baf90805c66ca7@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It is amazing how different the situations appear to be in your two > states! > In one, bees apparently rarely collect corn pollen, and in the other they > pack combs full of it. Simple really. Bees will pack in corn pollen if all there is too collect. No doubt about it! Apparenty in Brain's area the bees have got better pollen to collect. In a discussion with David Hackenberg on the subject we both agreed that in my area when the clover flow stops then its time to move the bees away from corn and into open range country. Problem solved! > I'm trying to sort out why N ceranae can be such a problem to some > colonies, > yet not to others. Your statement above may be a clue. N ceranae appears > to be a major problem when the bees are under nutritional stress- I don't think we can paint nosema ceranae with a broad brush. All my hives were exposed in California but only big problems in certain yards/areas. I keep track of dead out boxes and believe that a smart move would be to use acetic acid on ALL dead outs. Never simply stick in a nuc or package. Then in my opinion you would see less nosema ceranae problems but only a hypothesis so far. However deadout boxes from nosema ceranae seem to show nosema ceranae problems faster. When I find a few hives in a yard with nosema ceranae issues it seems most hives have got problems within a few weeks but usually not all hives. However when I see several hives in a yard with nosema I start treating and I can not see not treating all the hives in the yard. treating only a few simply does not make sense to me. Hope Dee is not listening! I also believe that the practice used in California of a drench every so often of fumidil might be a better control than simply feeding fumidil spring & fall (even if the bees are taking syrup). Cheaper too! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:18:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: resistance happens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bill writes: > The battle is not being won by the bacteria. There have been new developments that could short circuit bacteria's ability to develop resistance. > Almost as soon as penicillin was introduced in 1942, the bacteria it was designed to defeat began evolving to resist it. Now many common bacteria have acquired resistance to multiple antibiotics, making some infections extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible, to treat. So far, most of these pernicious drug-resistant infections have been confined to hospitals, where opportunities abound for resistant bacteria to spread and enter the bloodstream or infect open wounds. As the number of antibiotic resistant bacteria has increased, drug companies have been fleeing the field, leaving a dearth of new antibiotics, especially for the hard-to-kill Gram-negative bacteria. Short of a new wonder drug, the only near-term fix is to curb antibiotic use. -- from www.sciencemag.org on July 18, 2008 -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:58:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: 1885 - The Dangers of Enlarging our Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was wondering ‘which person’ was going to post the ‘just the facts ma- an’, or something similar as is typical here, because I knew it would be coming. I highly appreciate that the moderator approved the article. Perhaps they believed it had some entertainment value, as well as recognized that beekeeping past, even if satire, bees played a role in shaping our future. Perhaps they approved just for fun, I don’t know but thanks for helping me share the article. The article was posted for its bee humor, as well as to show the events of the time. The author cleverly attacked politicians, jurors for acquittals of murderers, the riots occurring in Cincinnati, door to door salesmen - all things that were current at the time. And used the knowledge at the time OR what was believed about the bee at the time to do it. Much like some here might do, as well as other places, bend facts about the bee to advance their own agenda. I started up the Historical Honeybee Article Archives for those reading the bee articles to interpret as they wish. And I do ocasionally post one to Bee-L. I did have serious concerns that some person may not appreciate history, or poke fun at our ancestors beliefs about bees. I hoped that they would read the articles, not make fun, or critic for errors. That would be far too easy to do, having the advantage of 120 years of knowledge over the authors of these historic prints. I am happy to say that know one so far as attempted to critic any historic article, and many have stated that they enjoy the articles for thier historic aspect. YES, the articles may be in error, they may be in satire, they may be fact, they may be in humor, but they are all part of our history to be cherished and enjoyed. At the Historical Honeybee Article Archives, we are now over 230 articles posted to the list OR archives. I will say that this is the first time someone has come back from the future to debunk a historic comedic article written in the past over 100 years ago, or any historic article posted to the HHAA site for that matter. If you need more work, I have a copy of a bee article Published in the Cueva de la Araña, Spain around 6,000 B.C that needs critiqued, works by Pliny, Paley, Philiscus, as well as the comic section from a 1924 New York times that is in serious need of debunking. The authors may be dead, but that should not excuse their work from being criticized right? ;) Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:47:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Powdered Sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I made a powdered sugar :dispenser" several years ago using a leafblower and clothes dryer outlet tubing(whatever its called-that aluminized 6in or so tube), a 5 gallon bucket and a honey super. It was real simple and worked real well. Basically you cause the inflow tube from the blower to be somehat buried in the sugar (in the bucket) and the outflow to come out the top through another section of tube into the super, which was placed on top of the hive....you could see a fog of powdered sugar come out the front of the hive. Never noticed it hurting the bees but it looked like it had snowed in the hive...... John Horton **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 07:47:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: resistance happens In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bill writes: >> The battle is not being won by the bacteria. There have been new >> developments that could short circuit bacteria's ability to >> develop resistance. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-07/ru-nab070208.php http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-04/uoia-usd043008.php http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-04/jhu-stz040808.php http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-04/acs-abm031108.php http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-03/uow-rcp031208.php http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-02/miot-bf022608.php I could go on with many other links. The current state of science in this area is just as Peter posted, but neither life nor science is static. Even the post is hopeful since most superbugs are fairly isolated and not common. We are not all dropping like flies from resistant bacteria. In any war, there is the ebb and flow of battle. At any one time during the war one side is ahead, but it is the end that actually determines the winner. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:53:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany and ugly lawns and ... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > the movement to ban cosmetic chem use on lawns started in Canada in Quebec and then spread to > Ontario this spring. many eastern US cities were the early adapters. Not banned yet in Ontario. It is proposed legislation. Plus, it is not a blanket ban, but selective in which chemicals are allowed and which are not. It also allows the "banned" ones to still be used in selected applications. Certainly is not a "ban cosmetic chemicals" since they do not ban them all, and for those they do they regulate their use. The important fact is they do so selectively and with scientific backing as to why certain chemicals are "banned", which was the whole issue with the original post, that science be damned, do it anyway. Truth is, there is not much new here. When pesticides show a problem, they are restricted or removed from use. But the reason is scientific. As far as women using plant derivatives for cosmetics since they are found in nature, orangutans are found in nature and are as unnatural to apply to skin as plants. Bill Truesdell (Will someone get this monkey off my back!) Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:15:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: resistance happens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill wrote: > We are not all dropping like flies from resistant bacteria. I know, but would it be comforting to know that you were one of "only" 90,000 who die from infections that year in the US? By the way, both my mother and her brother died from septicemia in the 1990s (in the hospital). The point of my bringing this up is that major drug companies have drifted away from such routine things as antibiotics and vaccines; meanwhile, resistance bacteria, ineffective antibiotics and vaccine shortages are cropping up. "Changes in natural ecosystems, including the release of large amounts of antimicrobials, might alter the population dynamics of microorganisms, including selection of resistance, with consequences for human health that are difficult to predict." Why So Many Antibiotic Resistance Genes? The huge number of antibiotic resistance genes found in the environment raises the obvious question of why so many have evolved. Recent work has shown a pronounced breadth of utilization of antibiotics as a source of nutrients by bacteria, and it seems natural that this should have led to considerable levels of resistance. FROM "Antibiotics and Antibiotic Resistance Genes in Natural Environments" José L. Martínez SCIENCE VOL 321 18 JULY 2008 sciencemag.org **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:31:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: resistance happens In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter L. Borst wrote: > Bill wrote: >> We are not all dropping like flies from resistant bacteria. > > I know, but would it be comforting to know that you were one of "only" > 90,000 who die from infections that year in the US? By the way, both > my mother and her brother died from septicemia in the 1990s (in the > hospital). I am truly sorry for your loss. I knew when I wrote that numbers never tell the whole story since each one is a tragedy, but we all can count the loss of family and friends to things that, in time, will be conquered. Even with resistance, we are fortunate to live at a time when medicine is providing antibiotics that work. A good friend recently had both MSRA and COPD and antibiotics got her through it. Twenty years ago, she would never have made it. Again, I am sorry for your loss. Bill **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 09:47:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >Jerry > Can you please share some of the "evidence" to back this statement up? Hi Brian, You can see Jerry's survey at beealert.blackfoot.net/~beealert/Updated* Survey*ResultsJune19_2007.pdf. Look at Figure 4. Brian, from Jerry's data, and conversation with plenty of beekeepers across the U.S., it appears to me that CCD, or CCD-like losses are not limited to large scale migratory operators. As Jim Fischer keeps trying to make clear, CCD has all the earmarks of a rapid-acting pathogen. One would expect such a pathogen to transmit more readily in large operations, and that does indeed appear to happen. However, small operations do not appear to be immune in any way. In general, small operations may have fewer problems, since the bees may experience less competition for nutritious forage, have less robbing and drifting, and often lower mite levels. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 06:19:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Sick bumblebees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Science Daily: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080715204730.htm Bees were divided into a control group and a group that were injected with lipopolysaccharide, a substance that stimulated an immune response without a need for the bee to be infected with a disease. Bees were offered the choice of blue and yellow artificial flowers only one type of which contained sugar water. An individual's flight was recorded over ninety visits to these flowers. Eventually the bees spent almost all of their time going to the rewarding flowers, but it took the immune stimulated bees longer to reach this point. Dr Mallon added: "This work has two important applications. Firstly, there is a lot of interest in the connections between the immune system and the nervous system in human biology. The Mallon lab was the first to show that these interactions also exist in the much more experimentally tractable insects. "Secondly, there is concern about both the decline in wild bumble-bee species and the effects of disease on the honeybee industry. It has been shown that learning is vitally important to how well a colony prospers. This effect of immunity on learning highlights a previously unconsidered effect of disease on colony success." Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:49:50 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Pesticides on Sweet Corn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ~1/2 pound per acre = a only a handful amount per year and > most likely mainly granular insecticide for corn rootworm > control A half pound of granular insecticide certainly is an excessive amount of insecticide as compared to alternative rootworm controls on the market. What if the seed corn had been equipped with a seed treatment rather than the tossing of a granular insecticide around on the ground? I have no idea what the current seeding rates for Illinois would be, but Iowa State seems to like 32,000 plants per acre. See: http://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/icm/2006/4-10/seedrate.html The normal rate for corn seed treatment for rootworm is a seed loading of 0.5 mg clothianidin per seed (this is from Bayer, who makes one type of clothianidin). So, 32,000 seeds at 0.5 mg of pesticide each... 32,000 * 0.5 mg = 16,000 mg = 16 grams = 0.035 pounds per acre, a mere 1/14th as much pesticide as used in the Illinois example cited above. This is the advance of technology, and we ought to stand up and cheer it, as it reduces the total exposure of everything, from the soil, to groundwater, to farmworkers, to harvested crop. Anything that uses less pesticides, and applies the pesticide only precisely where needed is a big step forward, as no pesticides are sprayed at all, and spraying is what tends to present problems for bees. > granules couldn't harm pollinating insects. I'm not sure that is strictly true. If a poorly-glued seed treatment of a "massive" dose of 1.25 mg of clothianidin per seed could turn into dust in the seed drill, become airborne, land on blooming canola in adjacent fields, and cause pesticide kills in several thousand German beehives, then there are also highly unlikely scenarios that could play out for a granular application. The easiest to imagine would be the same sort of "dust generated by sloppy application method" scenario what happened in Germany. But if the only pesticide kills are the ones that can only be explained with complex sequences of coincidence and unlikely errors behind them, then pesticide kills as "business as usual" are eliminated, and all pollinators are better protected. Dare I say it? "Better Living Through Chemistry"? I think it is true in these specific cases. Most beekeepers seem to want it not just "both ways", but "all three ways". They want zero bee kills, they want to ban systemics outright based upon rumors that everyone keeps refuting, and they want to eat. To me, systemics seem to be the only way to reduce bee kills and keep crop yields high. Remember, bees are not the only segment of agriculture reeling from multiple new invasive exotic pests, pathogens, and parasites that hitchhiked on all the world trade we've had forced down our throats since the 1980s. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:52:21 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Less bees = less beans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bumblebee numbers in Scotland are suddenly noticed as lower only because crops are suddenly going unpollinated. To my knowledge, CCD symptoms have not been found in the UK to date, but the mention of "inexperienced beekeepers" sounds appropriately curmudgeonly. ==================================== http://tinyurl.com/66tnzx "A spokesperson said: 'This is mainly due to loss of flower-rich habitats due to increasing intensification of land-use for agriculture, forestry and development.'" "Willie Robson at the Chain Bridge Honey Farm near Berwick said honey bee numbers could have dropped because fewer people were keeping them. As well as facing colony collapse syndrome, honey bees were threatened by inexperienced beekeepers, and insecticides." **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 19:22:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Southern Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany In-Reply-To: <012a01c8e90a$8104f670$0201000a@j> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 7/18/08 3:14 PM, James Fischer at bee-quick@bee-quick.com wrote: > "Lawn products", regardless of intent, are not going to > make any impact on any significant number of colonies, > as the overwhelming bulk of hives never come anywhere > near suburbia. While a complete ban on all "lawn > products" might make a few hobby beekeepers happy, it > would do little else. It would impact maybe 3% to 5% > of US colonies in total, and a negligible percentage of > the pollination and honey production, perhaps 1% of > the total. I was under the impression that imidacloprid (for example) was a component of products used both in commercial crop management and domestic "lawn care". As such, it's use would seem to quite definitely have an impact on backyard and commercial beekeepers. How many other nics come into similar categories? A W.A.G. dataset based on 600 apiaries with 2500+ hives, 1400 with 400+ hives, 10,000 sideliners with 25+ hives and 200,000 backyards with 3+ hives produces figures showing that the sideliner/backyarders could equal more than 20% of all colony ownership in the US, with a significant portion of that being well within the range of a domestic lawn-care pesticide user. My data is years old. No doubt you have figures that show a more accurate breakdown of who-owns-what-and-how-many. Look forward to seeing them in support of your 3%-5% assessment. I don't think bans are neccessarily to "keep people happy", as you curiously put it. They become part of an environment that should be geared toward management based on sustainability rather than the equivalent of "fishing by hand grenade". **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:55:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: resistance happens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The problem of the battle between mankind and a whole plethora of pathogens was touched upon in my January 2007 article in the ABJ. This is not a fight we can win; we make advances and then they do. This issue has implications for honey bee health as much as human and the health of all organisms that are affected by our care or lack of it. > Recent advances in molecular epidemiological methods have elucidated the evolutionary pathways by which modern methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus have evolved. Only five major lineages of hospital methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus exist, but these are globally distributed and evolving resistance to even the newest antibiotics. > Staphylococcus aureus (Staph infection) is one of the major resistant pathogens. Found on the mucous membranes and the skin of around a third of the population, it is extremely adaptable to antibiotic pressure. It was the first bacterium in which penicillin resistance was found -- in 1947, just four years after the drug started being mass-produced. Staphylococcus aureus can cause a range of illnesses from minor skin infections, such as pimples, impetigo to life-threatening diseases, such as pneumonia, meningitis, Toxic shock syndrome, and septicemia. * * * Antimicrobial Resistance Trends and Outbreak Frequency in United States Hospitals > We assessed resistance rates and trends for important antimicrobial-resistant pathogens (oxacillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus [ORSA], etc. Resistance rates were highest for ORSA (36%). Two-thirds of hospitals reported increasing ORSA rates, whereas only 4% reported decreasing rates, and 24% reported ORSA outbreaks within the previous year. Most hospitals (87%) reported having implemented measures to rapidly detect resistance, but only 50% reported having provided appropriate resources for antimicrobial resistance prevention (53%) or having implemented antimicrobial use guidelines (60%). The most common resistant pathogen in US hospitals is ORSA, which accounts for many recognized outbreaks and is increasing in frequency in most facilities. Current practices to prevent and control antimicrobial resistance are inadequate. > The data we report have important implications. A more aggressive approach to the prevention and control of antimicrobial resistance is needed. > The Antimicrobial Availability Task Force of the Infectious Diseases Society of America has viewed with concern the decreasing investment by major pharmaceutical companies in antimicrobial research and development. Although smaller companies are stepping forward to address this gap, their success is uncertain. The IDSA proposed legislative and other federal solutions to this emerging public health problem in its July 2004 policy report "Bad Bugs, No Drugs: As Antibiotic R&D Stagnates, a Public Health Crisis Brews." **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:16:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In support of my contention that so called ferals are not different from bees in colonies that are raised from locally available honey bees and/or simply allowed to requeen themselves: > Due to the introduction of exotic honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) diseases in the eastern states, the borders of the state of Western Australia were closed to the import of bees for breeding and other purposes >25 yr ago. To provide genetically improved stock for the industry, a closed population breeding program was established that now provides stock for the majority of Western Australian beekeepers. Given concerns that inbreeding may have resulted from the closed population breeding structure, we assessed the genetic diversity within and between the breeding lines by using microsatellite and mitochondrial markers. We found that the breeding population still maintains considerable genetic diversity, despite 25 yr of selective breeding. We also investigated the genetic distance of the closed population breeding program to that of beekeepers outside of the program, and the feral Western Australian honey bee population. The feral population is genetically distinct from the cl! osed population, but not from the genetic stock maintained by beekeepers outside of the program. -- Population Genetics of Commercial and Feral Honey Bees in Western Australia Nadine C. Chapman, Julianne Lim, and Benjamin P. Oldroyd Journal of Economic Entomology **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:46:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany and ugly lawns and ... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:53:45 -0400, Bill Truesdell wrote: >Brian Fredericksen wrote: >> the movement to ban cosmetic chem use on lawns started in Canada in Quebec and then spread to >> Ontario this spring. many eastern US cities were the early adapters. and Bill T. said >Not banned yet in Ontario. It is proposed legislation. Plus, it is not >a blanket ban, but selective in which chemicals are allowed and which >are not. Sir you are partially incorrect: (do you own stock in these chem companies you seem so fond of ?) from Ontario Provincial Site dated June 18, 2008 http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/en/news/2008/061801.php A province-wide ban on the sale and use of pesticides is one step closer today with the passage of the Cosmetic Pesticides Ban Act by the Ontario legislature. Over the summer, the government will consult on the specifics of the ban: The products to be banned from sale The ingredients to be banned from use The rules around exceptions for agriculture, forestry and golf courses, with conditions. The province will also develop rules for other exceptions, such as fighting West Nile virus, for example, and other health or safety issues. Once the ban is fully in place, it will take the place of existing municipal pesticide by-laws, bringing consistency across the province and protecting Ontarians regardless of where they live. The provincial law, unlike municipal by-laws, bans the sale of cosmetic pesticides, not just their use. It also sets out the rules for the transportation, storage and disposal of pesticides, requirements that municipal by-laws cannot control. The ban should take effect in spring 2009. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:25:32 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: resistance happens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is not a fight we can win. We certainly cannot eliminate or cure all disease, just as we cannot hope to eliminate all pests of plants. But I think it is important to realize that more than antibiotics and pesticides can prompt "resistance". The discussion about "Pesticides on Sweet Corn" prompted me to recall that the corn rootworm in the Midwest became "resistant" to not a chemical or drug, but a simple cultural practice. (I like early corn, so I keep up on the R&D.) If corn was rotated annually with soybeans, it was not infested with rootworm larval damage because western corn rootworm laid eggs only in cornfields. Also, rootworm larvae could not survive on soybean roots, so any larvae that hatched from eggs laid in corn the previous year simply starved. So crop rotation was the best tactic for managing western corn rootworm. But the rotation of corn and soybeans for decades in Illinois resulted in the emergence of a new strain of rootworm which lays its eggs in soybean fields. All this is very recent - 1995! Rootworm damage in corn crops rotated with soybeans appeared, and when samples were taken, rootworm adults were found in both corn and soybean fields. Tests on the new rootworm variant show that it also lays eggs in alfalfa, oat, and even wheat stubble. The mutants with less "picky" tastes survived, and the main population of the pest became dominated by pests with the mutation. This is a serious problem for corn farmers, but it does at least annoy the heck out of the creationists in the Midwest, as it is a prima-facie example of how a creature evolves, and can evolve quickly (over a span of mere decades) if conditions change suddenly. As a result, creationist corn farmers are now an endangered species themselves, and must evolve. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:38:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Bartlett Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While a complete ban on all "lawn >> products" might make a few hobby beekeepers happy, it >> would do little else. I think that this statement is shortsighted. Although this is a bee oriented site, the amount of pesticides, herbacides and fertilizer that is used in the US for lawn care is having a definate impact on our rivers and streams. Buill Bartlett **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 16:37:47 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Less bees = less beans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jim and All Being in Scotland, keeping honeybees, and knowing a bit about bumble bees and indeed beans perhaps this one's for me. > Bumblebee numbers in Scotland are > suddenly noticed as lower only > because crops are suddenly going > unpollinated. By recent standards we're having a poor summer and the spring was late. Bumble bees are around in numbers, but maybe when that gentleman's broad beans (= faba or fava beans) were in flower the bees were elsewhere. We hosted a 'Bumble Bee Walk' at my workplace earlier in the summer, and running up to the event I was a bit concerned that they were very thin on the ground. All that was happening though was that the early bees were off working the massively abundant resources offered by the local oilseed rape fields and, when they went over, the bees returned. Perhaps that is what happened in Selkirk. In the UK we regularly hear the cry that bumble bees are on the decline. That may be so in the S of England with global warming, urbanisation and an increasingly tidy countryside taking their toll, but up here we have some bumble bees (and butterflies) increasing their range and I see no sign of a decline in numbers. > To my knowledge, CCD symptoms have > not been found in the UK to date .... We have N. ceranae, and we have occasional reports of 'Marie-Celeste' or 'Disappearing Disease' but no-one (well, no-one who gets my respect!) is declaring that we have CCD. We did have high losses through much of the UK last winter, but most are putting that down to a poor summer last year, miticide-resistant Varroa now being widespread, and maybe new pathogens adding to those stresses. all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:47:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Pesticides on Sweet Corn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:49:50 -0400, James Fischer wrote: >Most beekeepers seem to want it not just "both ways", but >"all three ways". They want zero bee kills, they want to >ban systemics outright based upon rumors that everyone >keeps refuting, and they want to eat. > I can't resist this one: I think some beekeepers want it FOUR WAYS, number 4 being they want to continue using hard miticides without embracing new ways of mitigating varrora mite damage that we already know work. Russian bees Apiguard Formic OA (presuming it ever gets labeled for use) drone removal sugar dusting screened bottom boards **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 16:10:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: resistance happens In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter L. Borst wrote: > The problem of the battle between mankind and a whole plethora of > pathogens was touched upon in my January 2007 article in the ABJ. This > is not a fight we can win; we make advances and then they do. This > issue has implications for honey bee health as much as human and the > health of all organisms that are affected by our care or lack of it. My last post on this since it seems to be just Peter and I posting on it. If we maintain the same approach, I agree that bacteria will keep advancing to keep pace with our advances. However, even with the current approach, if you look at mortality statistics, almost all show that they have reminded fairly static over the years and, if there are trends, they are down. Plus, bacterial infection mortality is less than 2% of all disease related deaths. Most of those deaths are hospital cleanliness issues. Clean hospitals have a much lower incidence of bacterial infections. I read the literature on this very carefully since I volunteer weekly at a local hospital and have to transport people with MSRA and communicable diseases. Plus, my youngest son is very susceptible to staph infections and did have necrotizing fasciitis, or skin eating disease, a bacterial infection. He survived because of antibiotics. So we share a deep, personal interest in the subject. Current research is looking at the bacteria themselves and how they develop resistance. The research is very promising and the resistance mechanism could be bypassed. So I would be careful in declaring defeat in the war. There are a host of pathogen caused diseases that we seldom see anymore, yet were killers in their day. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:41:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline HI Peter, >The feral population is genetically distinct from the closed population, but not from the genetic stock maintained by beekeepers outside of the program. I am recently returned from Western Australia, and am surprised by the above finding! I'm not sure which beekeeper stock was tested, but from my observations, it was easy to immediately tell the difference between the mangaged bees and the ferals. I'm sure that Peter Detchon will support this. The managed bees were quite yellow (this is a major characteristic that they breed for), gentle, and calm on the combs. The ferals were darker, banded, bees which were much more defensive and active on the combs. Some beekeepers in the area apparently run feral stock--Peter Detchon would be able to answer this. I don't have a reference, but was told several times that the ferals in Australia have considerable A.m.m. genetics. This was a bit surprising to me, since the climate would appear to favor A.m. ligustica (Italians), or especially A.m. scutellata (the African savannah bee). Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:34:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: resistance happens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill >My last post on this since it seems to be just Peter and I posting on it. Right. I think we are just balancing each other out on this. It is not black and white and there is good news and bad news. What we are doing together on this discussion is painting a bigger picture; perhaps one that a particular individual would be unable to do alone. Long live group think! pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:36:47 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: So-called feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy wrote > I don't have a reference, but was told several times that the ferals in > Australia have considerable A.m.m. genetics. This was a bit surprising to > me, since the climate would appear to favor A.m. ligustica (Italians), or > especially A.m. scutellata (the African savannah bee). I have posted before re the feral population being derived from AMM. Do doubt there are some AML but as we breed "soft" they tend not to survive in harsh conditions. If a spotter hive is left on a bush site for any length of time, they then go black and cranky because of the influence of the old AMM when superceding. The history of the introduction of honey bees to Australia shows that from 1822 up to the 1870's AMM were shipped all over the country side. Here in Queensland, there are many reports of hives going to places and one of their "good points" was that they would swarm many times in the season. So feral AMM certainly got a foothold in many places. I will let Peter post re the Western Australia situation. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 16:38:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany and ugly lawns and ...banned in Canada, but what isn't In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > Sir you are partially incorrect: (do you own stock in these chem companies you seem so fond of ?) Wish I did, especially Monsanto. Unbelievable return on investment over the past couple of years. The key is still that the so called cosmetic chemicals are still not banned but have to be identified and the reasons for banning backed up by at least bad science. And that will not happen until next April. Which, and I repeat for the umpteenth time, was the whole reason for all the posts on this subject, your desire to ban all "cosmetic" lawn chemical, science be damned. Even the Canadians disagree with that since they have exceptions and those nasty chemicals will still be manufactured and used in Canada. And, if you did look at all the posts I have made on the BeeL you would know that I practice organic farming and do not use pesticides. But what I do as a small gardener has little carryover to large farming operations, just as what I do as a two to four colony hobby beekeeper has little to do with an outfit with 30,000 colonies. What I defend is not the large chemical companies, but the Luddite approach that some have toward manufactured chemicals and the painting of LARGE CORPORATIONS as totally bereft of any moral or scientific base. There are examples of that, but if you pick up your local paper you will see small time lapses of the same morality. The reason they make the papers are that they are the exception. Truth is, I have no problem if the whole of Canada bans all pesticides for any use. They could even ban free speech.... but then again, they already have. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:58:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 19:22:01 -0400, Mike Southern wrote: >I don't think bans are neccessarily to "keep people happy", as you curiously >put it. They become part of an environment that should be geared toward >management based on sustainability rather than the equivalent of "fishing by >hand grenade". > Nice post Mike Southern.... I'm pushing in my state (MN) for the ban on these materials for cosmetic use. Likewise we have an effort to convince county and state officials to plant native wildflowers and pollinator forage along roadsides in favor of mowing and spraying for thistles etc. Iowa has a successful program of planting the I35 media strip with wildflowers vetch and clover and is saving money on maintenance and also improving habitat for pollinators and song birds. I've heard Maryland also has a similar program. If every state would ban cosmetic use of chems and push efforts to minimize roadside mowing/spraying I think we could make a positive impact for ALL beekeepers. The average Joe/Jane can identify with these ideas too and are appealing to the general public for a variety of different reasons. No sense waiting around for the feds or a lab coat to solve CCD or fix the "bee problem". We pretty much have numerous tools at our disposal to effect positive change. Delisting Apistan and Checkmite is another do-able project I think would be beneficial to honeybees also. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 01:55:05 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: So-called feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>In support of my contention that so called ferals are not different from bees in colonies that are raised from locally available honey bees and/or simply allowed to requeen themselves. It depends on what you consider significant differences and if the managed local hives are regularly requeened with out of state queens. I'lI give you one example. It's been an extremely hectic colony removal season for me. I've had calls for removals from Rye, NY to the Hamptons (NY). If color constitutes a significant difference, I've removed 3 and 4 colonies, respectively, in distinct concentrated areas about 25 miles apart. Both groupings were in a radius of 1.5 - 2.0 miles. One grouping had mostly very dark queens with some bees almost pitch black. Great health, brood patterns, stores etc. The second grouping had queens and bees looking like the typical Italians. These carried some varroa, some brood patterns where gun-shot. [I have yet to find a marked queen.] Judging from the young combs, most of the colonies were started by this year's swarms. None had been sprayed. Yes, the drones from the managed hives pass some genetics onto the feral colonies. I do not know exactly which traits (feral vs. *imported*) are dominant in the feral survivors since I don't know if the ferals in my area outnumber managed hives. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 22:03:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: The Bee Boy Dance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Bee Boy Dance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m5vt07W2n4 Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 19:22:18 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: <009d01c8eac9$dbe01140$787ba53a@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter L. Borst wrote: >...so called ferals" Peter, What is the difference between what you describe as ‘so called ferals’ and ‘ferals’? Thanks Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 03:46:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Royal Jelly Antioxidant Activity May Prevent Cell Damage Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Royal Jelly Antioxidant Activity May Prevent Cell Damage Royal Jelly Peptides Inhibit Lipid Peroxidation In Vitro and In Vivo Journal of Nutritional Science and Vitaminology, Vol. 54 (2008) , No. 3 pp.191-195 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/07/royal-jelly-antioxidant-activity-may.html Summary Royal jelly peptides (RJPx) isolated from hydrolysates of water-soluble royal jelly proteins prepared with protease P exhibited significantly stronger hydroxyl radical-scavenging activity, and antioxidant activity against lipid peroxidation, than did water-soluble royal jelly protein (WSRJP) in vitro... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 06:57:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10807201041p42db7ab2p6c9cbcd0829f1f47@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit randy oliver wrote: > > The managed bees were quite yellow (this is a major characteristic that they > breed for), gentle, and calm on the combs. The ferals were darker, banded, > bees which were much more defensive and active on the combs. I am ready to be corrected on this, but I had the same problem that you have in reading the studies findings. The conclusion I came to is the bred bees are different, but the bees that are not bred through selection are not changed from the ferals. Or, put another way, the Laissez-faire bees are the same as the ferals even though they were physically separated and did not interbreed. So what you observed is the same as the study. The key to the study was that even thought they have been physically separated for years, both were still the same. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:02:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Less bees = less beans In-Reply-To: <154160.14730.qm@web86205.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin Ramsay wrote: > By > recent standards we're having a poor summer and the spring was late. > Bumble bees are around in numbers, but maybe when that gentleman's > broad beans (= faba or fava beans) were in flower the bees were > elsewhere. An excellent observation. The problem was probably not the lack of bumblebees but the lack of other pollinators, including honeybees. I have noticed that some bumblebee proponents tend to discount honeybees in the combined pollination effort. That came across clearly to me in a bumblebee pollination study in the blueberry fields in Maine. Really bad study that showed bumblebees could do what 60,000 honey bee colonies could do and even better. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 02:11:50 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: So-called feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>The managed bees were quite yellow <...> gentle, and calm on the combs. The ferals were darker, banded, bees which were much more defensive and active on the combs. I am surprised at the gentleness of the colonies that I remove from structures. I often don't use smoke [and the bee vac takes care of any bees coming out to defend]. Almost without an exception. On the other hand, my super strong *managed* [I breed from the ferals best performing under my care] colonies can be quite defensive when disturbed after the major honey flow. I have a few of thoughts on this: 1. My hives are close to each other. The different queens scents make the bees edgy. Ferals enjoy fairly good isolation. 2. Most drones in my breeding area must be yellow since most of my raised queens are yellow. [Black queens mated in my area tend to have yellowish daughters.] This *hybrid* result not only has vigor but also possibly higher defensiveness in adverse conditions. 3. My vertical, unlimited broodnest hives result in much higher populations that any ferals I have seen. Larger colonies can *afford* to be more defensive as losing a few guards is negligible. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 22:42:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >In support of my contention that so called ferals are not different > from bees in colonies that are raised from locally available honey > bees and/or simply allowed to requeen themselves: Peter, I greatly respect your opinion, but now that I've read the article that you cited, I don't come to the same conclusion. The authors state: "Our current genetic data support demographic evidence... that populations of Australian feral honey bees are self-sustaining and that they do not rely on escapees from commercial colo- nies for continued existence." Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:49:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: <48846B86.3070109@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bill said: > The conclusion I came to is the bred bees are different, but the bees that > are not bred through selection are not changed from the ferals. Right you are, Bill! I was hoping that Peter Detchon would hop in to clarify, since he has both the yellow "Better Bees" queens from the isolated Rottnest Island breeding program, and also some colonies of dark bees that he recently purchased from another beekeeper. I looked at each. I have a better understanding now that I have read the paper, and see exactly what they were referring to. It appears that the feral population can absorb the drones and swarms of the selected "yellow" managed bees, yet still maintain its separate genetic identity. Beekeepers who do not purchase the queens mated on Rottnest Island wind up running bees that are genetically similar to the feral population. Note that this situation is similar to what occurred in South Africa, as detailed by Mike Allsopp (posted previously by Peter Borst). Also similar to other countries in which the honey bee was not endemic. That is, the feral population of bees may be started by escapees from managed apiaries, but eventually attains its own genetic identity in many areas, despite the influx of further managed escapees. Beekeepers can maintain genetically distinct colonies in their operations by constant requeening (e.g., maintaining European stocks in Africanized states in the southern half of our country). However, without constant requeening with selected queens, generally from out of the area, the managed population will become genetically indistinguishable from the locally-adapted feral population. Varroa temporarily changes this situation, by decimating the feral population (in the case of European, as opposed to African, bees). When that happens, the "ferals" (as Peter Borst points out), consist largely of escapees from managed operations. However, each colony soon succumbs to the mite, unless they exhibit mite resistance through mechanisms such as VSH, small clusters, or frequent swarming. In this case, there is no true "feral" *population*, but rather a number of *individual colonies* that are temporarily living a feral existence, with limited life expectancy. However, after enough years, and given some sort of isolation from constant genetic influx, a true feral population will eventually reestablish, as reported by the likes of Tom Seeley and Joe Waggle. Such de novo feral populations will be a great resource in our search for the next generation of mite-tolerant honeybees. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:10:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe bossom Subject: apropos of bumble bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have noticed more activity involving bumble bees here in Southeast New = England than I have seen for the past decade. I do not what it due = to...perhaps weather conditions, perhaps flora..perhaps my new = spectacles. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:51:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10807210849v7dcaab88m67f84bfd9f6b6f09@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit randy oliver wrote: > a true feral population will > eventually reestablish, as reported by the likes of Tom Seeley He spoke to us at the Maine State Beekeepers meeting this year, and his NY ferals are alive because of what he said was vertical resistance, not horizontal resistance. I specifically asked him if the ferals would do well in an apiary and he answer was an unequivocal "No". In essence, vertical resistance is found in isolated colonies, where a balance is eventually arrived at between Varroa and host. However, if you bring in another colony with Varroa, you have horizontal Varroa input and colonies that seem to be Varroa resistant, crash. So Tom's bees are not the hoped for resistant bee that some might think. In time they might be, but not now. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 17:32:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: So-called feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >> my contention is that so called ferals are not different from bees in colonies that are raised from locally available honey bees and/or simply allowed to requeen themselves Randy: > I don't come to the same conclusion. The authors state: "Our current genetic data support demographic evidence... that populations of Australian feral honey bees are self-sustaining and that they do not rely on escapees from commercial colonies for continued existence." That isn't what I was addressing. I was referring to the view in the summary, which reads: >The feral population is genetically distinct from the closed population, but not from the genetic stock maintained by beekeepers outside of the program. The authors were trying to find out if the closed population was overly inbred and in some way inferior to bees not subjected to such a strict breeding program and/or ferals. My opinion is that non-selected bees in hives and non-selected bees are the same (by non-selected, I mean actually: subject to natural selection instead of human chosen for some particular criterion other than survivability). The bottom line is: how to get healthier bees. One could beat the woods for survivors, as Joe apparently does, or let susceptible bees die off like Mike Johnston and Kirk Webster does. While intensive breeding has not made bees that are vastly better than the ordinary, according to these authors it has not appreciably narrowed their genetic diversity either. Still, bees that are allowed to requeen themselves more closely resemble unmanaged bees. Genetic diversity within the colony, however, was not studied here and following the work of Dave Tarpy, Heather Mattila, and Freddie-Jean Richard -- this may be part of the key to success of non-inbred bees and so-called ferals. By the way, I use the term "so-called ferals" because it implies that bees in the wild are different in some radical way from bees kept in hives. As I mentioned earlier today, I am not trying to rewrite the Gospels here, just present different points of view. Better others should see things very differently than to all think alike and pat each other's backs. These are just observations that I make and I am not so afraid of being wrong that I won't write. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:30:19 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: So-called feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bill > So Tom's bees are not the hoped for > resistant bee that some might think. > In time they might be, but not now. I've always had a hard time seeing it this way. Yes, hosts and pathogens co-evolve. Yes, it is feasible that Varroa might become less virulent in time. But .... Varroa has very little genetic variation for selection to act upon. It came through a huge bottleneck when it jumped to Apis mellifera and left behind most of its accummulated diversity. Huge selection pressure has revealed the very rare variants (probably new mutations) that can resist pyrethroids, but where has the variation for virulence come from? Eventually, host and parasite may settle down to co-exist. It is better for both. The host clearly benefits from being able to tolerate the parasite. But where is the selection pressure for the parasite to be kinder to its host? Virulent mites multiply faster than non-virulent ones, and take over any mixed populations. Virulent mites cause their colonies to collapse and so virulent mites jump colonies more often. Virulent mites survive any emerging resistance in the bee better then avirulent ones. In an environment with mites jumping between colonies, I just can't see how avirulent mites could become dominant. Tom Seeley's bees might be tolerant of Varroa for other reasons, and perhaps these reasons are not stable - or effective enough - when transplanted from the forest. Keep an open mind, that's all I'm saying. best wishes Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:19:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Less bees = less beans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill and Gavin >The problem was probably not the lack of bumblebees but the lack of other >pollinators, including honeybees. The problem here was the weather - causing stunted plants and a lack of pollinators. This is the second time in recent years where we have seen beans in full flower when they were only six inches high. None of these flowers set, but when the warmer weather arrived the plants grew rapidly and continued to flower; these later flowers were pollinated successfully and set beans. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:22:07 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: So-called feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill did a fine job of explaining the finer points of "varroa-tolerant ferals" to those engaging in debate over the issue and said: > So Tom's bees are not the hoped for resistant > bee that some might think. Bill's right of course, and so is Tom Seeley, but why go searching for what we already have, already understand, and already have clear metrics for optimizing the breeding of the specific traits we understand and know to work against varroa? We already have the genetics we need to solve the problem, and have had them for some time. The "Russian" lines and the Spivak/Harbo/Harris/Danka "VSH/SMR" bee breeding programs are going through the process of trying to make the traits more predictable for queen producers, but as it stands (ABJ Jan 2008): "Throughout the three seasons of measurement, resistant stocks required less treatment against parasitic mites than the Italian stock. The total percentages of colonies needing treatment against varroa mites were 12% of VSH, 24% of Russian and 40% of Italian. The total percentages requiring treatment against tracheal mites were 1% of Russian, 8% of VSH and 12% of Italian. The average honey yield of Russian and VSH colonies was comparable to that of Italian colonies each year. Beekeepers did not report any significant behavioral problems with the resistant stocks." So why place hope in so-called "feral bees" or, the even more comically speculative "feral survivors" when Marla has 95% of breeding mites being removed by the house bees themselves as a normal outcome of her breeding program? And we can't really compare the US to Australia in terms of "feral" versus managed colonies, as Australia hasn't had their feral stocks wiped out by varroa, so they likely DO have more genetic diversity in their feral stocks, mostly because they have very large areas where there are no managed hives at all. And one would not want to look among ferals in Australia for varroa resistance, because, once again, they don't have varroa in Australia. Are the Spivak/Harbo/Harris/Danka "VSH/SMR" bees Magic Bees? Nope, but they aren't Magic Beans either. They are zero percent fraud and 100% science-based. Reams of stuff you can read. But they will require monitoring, as not all "VSH/SMR" colonies can be expected to have complete pure pwnage over varroa, and hence may will require some treatment now and again. But perhaps Bob Danka will even remove that small defect from the breeding program, and then, when the bees are "perfect" beekeepers will start to pay attention. Poor Marla. How many years has she been doing this, now? Anyone said "thank you" recently? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:02:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: So-called feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> So Tom's bees are not the hoped for >> resistant bee that some might think. >> In time they might be, but not now. I have been to the Arnot Forest. It is very small and there are a lot of commercially managed apiaries very close by. In fact, I was working in that area today. Wherever the drone congregation area is in that vicinity, I would bet any amount of money the "commercial bees" predominate. The fact that the colonies are up in trees and widely spaced could account for any effect seen. Commercial apiaries are just the opposite: hives very close together, down on the ground, many hundreds working the same forage areas, etc. But we have been over this many times. All I am saying is if ferals are surviving on their own, don't look to the genetic makeup of the bees, because the fact is they are usually not really isolated and therefore not different from other bees in hives in the same general area. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 17:49:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: So-called feral bees Comments: cc: randy oliver In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10807210849v7dcaab88m67f84bfd9f6b6f09@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, They could start right here with the bees talked about on this web page. http://esa.confex.com/esa/2005/techprogram/paper_22428.htm God Bless, Keith Malone On Jul 21, 2008, at 7:49 AM, randy oliver wrote: > Such de novo feral populations will be a great resource in our > search for > the next generation of mite-tolerant honeybees. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************