From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:06:00 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 784B448754 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3YWT017258 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0807D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 315830 Lines: 7342 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 23:24:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: So-called feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What's interesting about the VSH too is the fact that anyone can breed good stock with local drones. >From Glenn Apiaries http://members.aol.com/queenb95/smr.html "The best way to get the maximum amount of the trait into a line of bees is to begin with a pure VSH/SMR breeder queen so her daughters mate with your local drones. Workers from pure VSH/SMR queens have a hyper-hygienic behavior where their workers remove more brood than is necessary or desirable. This will show up as a deterioration of the breeder's brood pattern after about six weeks. The regular addition of frames of sealed brood from other colonies will keep the colony strong. Daughters queens of pure VSH/SMR breeders who are out crossed by natural mating have good brood production and an acceptable level of mite resistance:" **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 04:24:03 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: resistance happens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sometimes, resistance doesn't just "happen", but happens for specific reasons. Pure happenstance that Scientific American ran an article on a subject discussed on Bee-L "Antibiotic Resistance: Blame It on Lifesaving Malaria Drug?" "Resistance to ciprofloxacin (Cipro) has emerged in people without access to the antibiotic, but who have taken a related antimalarial..." http://tinyurl.com/6c4f32 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:48:16 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: So-called feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Peter > All I am saying is if ferals are surviving > on their own, don't look to the genetic > makeup of the bees, because the fact is > they are usually not really isolated and > therefore not different from other bees > in hives in the same general area. Isolation can be subtle. Bees in trees may prefer to colonise holes in trees and spaces in buildings rather than hives on the ground. They may be partial to local mating rather than at distant drone congregation sites. They might tend to supercede late in the season, or swarm and mate at a slightly different time of year. Any behavioral isolation could be topped up by selection. Varroa may not benefit from such complex behaviour, so how isolated are they from the mites on these commercial stocks? I do my beekeeping in a land where Russians, VSH, and commercial queen breeders are not part of the system and don't look like becoming so soon. Also, we hosted real native honeybees, at least until beekeeping became organised enough to import strains from all round the world. I hadn't really paid a lot of attention until recently to the possibility that we still have native types, naturally selected for today's problems, persisting here and there despite being exposed to all that exotic genetic resource in our apiaries. Not necessarily the answer to beekeeping in the UK, but it might be part of the way ahead and that intrigues me. all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 23:09:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >but why go searching for what we already have, > already understand, and already have clear > metrics for optimizing the breeding of > the specific traits we understand and know > to work against varroa? I'm in general agreement with you on this, Jim! > The "Russian" lines and the Spivak/Harbo/Harris/Danka "VSH/SMR" bee breeding programs are going through the process of trying to make the traits more predictable for queen producers These stocks are excellent in their own ways. However, none are yet perfect--the Russians (as Bob Harrison has detailed) may not be suitable for early pollination. The Minnesota Hygienic are not very mite resitant, and Dr. Spivak is struggling with finding combinations of mite resistance and honey production that her cooperators are happy with. The Harris/Danka VSH bees have greatly improved towards being more productive, but would not generally be considered a great bee other than for mite resistance. Dr Harbo suggested them as carriers of a gene to be bred into an operation. In combination, sometimes one can get lucky, and get a nearly "perfect" bee. The devil is in the reproduction of the "magic" combination in subsequent generations. > > >We already have the genetics we need to solve > the problem, and have had them for some time. I'm not so sure about this. The above traits are only a fraction of the potential traits possible to use for varroa resistance. Dr Mike Allsopp details others that had an effect in South Africa, and Apis cerana uses yet others. Over time, ferals may well develop useful traits to add to those mentioned above. My guess is that the bee of the future will combine several traits to deal with varroa in some combination determined by natural selection. > > > >And we can't really compare the US to Australia > in terms of "feral" versus managed colonies, as > Australia hasn't had their feral stocks wiped out > by varroa, so they likely DO have more genetic > diversity in their feral stocks, mostly because > they have very large areas where there are no > managed hives at all. Due to this diversity, I feel that it might be wise to at least test a few ferals from Australia with a varroa challenge in another country before their ferals are wiped out by the domino effect when varroa arrives. > > > >Are the Spivak/Harbo/Harris/Danka "VSH/SMR" bees Magic Bees? No, but sometimes an II breeder sure looks like magic! And I have thanked Dr Spivak recently. Randy **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:45:30 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: So-called feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Gavin Ramsay wrote: >Huge selection pressure has revealed the very rare variants (probably new mutations) that can resist pyrethroids, but where has the variation for virulence come from? i don't know where it came from, but i don't think it's all that rare. the only time i saw hives that had a few years worth of apistan strips in them (new strips added every "treatment period", but none ever removed), they were crawling with mites. these were not hives where honey was ever taken. i'd be willing to bet that this would be a reliable way to breed for resistant mites. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:14:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany and ugly lawns and ...banned in Canada, but what isn't In-Reply-To: <4883A24E.4040806@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 20-Jul-08, at 4:38 PM, Bill Truesdell wrote: > > Truth is, I have no problem if the whole of Canada bans all > pesticides for any use. They could even ban free speech.... but > then again, they already have. Hi Bill and all If you consider free speech is saying what you want when you want, then you are right! Up here I guess we have banned free speech by being polite. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario CANADA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:20:54 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: resistance happens In-Reply-To: <002001c8ebd4$4db9de80$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I will like to remind the group that Honey+propolis are one of the best antibiotic. They for sure work agains Staphylococcus aureus (as an example http://www.medbc.com/annals/review/vol_16/num_4/text/vol16n4p192.asp ) We should persevere on the medicinal uses of bee products. Honey is more than Money. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:55:43 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10807212249r48194266pfd4867cc1da5491@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > These stocks are excellent in their own ways. > However, none are yet perfect The expectation of "perfect" is very unreasonable, and is one of the exact reasons why beekeepers have not tried these new breeds of bee, but have instead bought into the "magic beans" of claimed "solutions" to varroa that are "faith-based beekeeping" rather than "data-based beekeeping" (FGMO, small-cell, acetic acid vaporization, Dump-N-brush, et al). There is nothing that we can breed for that yields "perfect" results. Tall parents rarely produce offspring that are taller than themselves. Most often, the offspring are closer to the population mean. > Dr Harbo suggested them as carriers of a > gene to be bred into an operation. Exactly! As I clearly said, we already have the genetics, so we don't need to go on wild goose chases looking for the genetics among bees in trees, regardless of what mythology one wants to believe about so-called "ferals". The genetics at hand need to be integrated into the lines that are the best producers, or we need to admit that we can choose between mite and disease resistance and optimal honey production, and work out how to run larger operations of less productive, but more "bullet- proof" colonies. Even if we found some so-called "ferals" with even better abilities to resist the mites, they would likely also have traits that would make them less than "perfect", such as a tendency to be swarmy, late to build up, and other habitual offenses of bees would help them survive in a feral state without nice roomy boxes. > My guess is that the bee of the future will > combine several traits to deal with varroa > in some combination determined by natural selection. If that were the case, then areas in the so-called "3rd World" would have "survivor" hives already, and they would be selling their bees to everyone else. In fact, varroa tends to hit everything except the LUCKY hives and the isolated hives. There is no way to breed "lucky" bees, so it is going to take more actual hands-on breeding to breed adequate compromise bees. And the lucky bees are only lucky for so long, which is why all the beekeeping cult movements invariably consist of several waves of novice beekeepers in succession, very few with more than a few years of experience. It is not so much the bees that don't survive as it is the beekeepers who don't survive, and that's a darn shame, as varroa control is not such a big deal once one rolls up one's sleeves and admits that there are no magic bees and there are no magic beans. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:08:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: varroa tolerant bees (was So-called feral bees) In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10807212309p727278n1375b1fc5cd14d66@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, Randy said: > These stocks are excellent in their own ways. However, none are yet > perfect--the Russians (as Bob Harrison has detailed) may not be suitable > for > early pollination. The Minnesota Hygienic are not very mite resistant, > and > Dr. Spivak is struggling with finding combinations of mite resistance and > honey production that her cooperators are happy with. The advances in varroa control through breeding has been significant but we still have a ways to go. Dr. Shiminuki said we would be able to breed a varroa tolerant bee within twenty years. Next year will be the 20 year mark. I think Dr. Shiminuki knew the task would not be easy. Maybe the only researcher which did at the time! Most large beeks felt they could let varroa kill off the weak and breed from survivors. Was unsuccessful for the most part and the project failed when breeding from survivors was tried at the baton rouge lab( Dr. Harbo). According to Dr. Harbo survivor queen selection was the drawback. Breeding from the hives with the lowest mite loads was not a reliable method of breeder queen selection. Hence he looked to science for why certain hives can survive varroa as did Dr. Spivak. Hence the discovery of SMR/VSH which was a big step in the right direction. I also thanked Dr. Harbo last time we spoke! Dr. Harbo is now retired. I remember many queen breeders shaking their heads as to "Shims" time frame. Many believed they could produce a varroa tolerant bee faster. Including researchers from the Baton Rouge Bee lab ( if reading the post you know who you are!). Six years was the time frame those researchers predicted. "Shim" was saying one thing and other labs were saying another in the halls of bee meetings. Still "Shim" held his position. Again: The head of Beltsville was saying one thing and several other researchers were saying another. Very confusing! Most beeks sided with the other researchers simply because they wanted the time frame to be six years! "Shims" popularity was at a all time low! I kept an open mind myself but have always felt that "Shim" was the best U.S. beekeeping mind to step forward from U.S. researchers in my lifetime. Has beekeepers beside myself thanked Dr. Shiminuki lately? "Shim" now lives in Florida. His wife keeps hives of bees. Dr. Shiminuki was sure of his time frame. So sure he traveled to Russia to look into bringing in the Russian queens. Which has proved to be a smart move. The Russian import was met with criticism from most areas of beekeeping. Even myself doubted the project success at the time but did not speak out against the project. In fact you can search the BEE=L archives and see I have never said bringing in Russian queens was a bad idea. The Yugo bee import had went the way of the Yugo car so bringing in the Russian queen was a hard sell as was a big and expensive undertaking. Although some success was had in varroa control with the Yugo queens they had the same drawbacks as the Russians in that although varroa tolerant they needed checking for varroa loads and treatment at times. Not a bee which could never need a treatment. Such a line of bee *in my opinion* is not here yet but we have made giant steps in the right direction. The Russian line (if kept pure) might be the closest to success. > And I have thanked Dr > Spivak recently. I also have thanked Dr. Spivak and have taken a queen rearing course from her. I thank she was surprised to see my name on the list (as were others on the list like Michael Bush of beesource). A member of the Midwestern Beekeepers, Kansas honey Producers and Northeast Kansas Beekeepers (holds offices in all organizations) called to tell me after he attended the Master Beekeeping class which followed the queen rearing class that I had one of the highest graft takes in the class. I believe was mostly luck and Marla's one on one help as my old eyes have a hard time seeing the larva. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:52:47 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Volcanic Ash and Weather? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.adn.com/aleutians/story/471377.html http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//www.agfood.net/2008/07/estamos-subestimando-el-impacto-del.html&hl=en&langpair=es|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8 -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:49:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter L Borst wrote: > But we have been over this many times. All I am saying is if ferals are > surviving on their own, don't look to the genetic makeup of the bees, > because the fact is they are usually not really isolated and therefore not > different from other bees in hives in the same general area. I agree. I came away from Tom's talk that the change was in the mite, not the bee. If it were in the the bee then they would have done well with the introduction of outside pressure (horizontal) but they succumbed just like an apiary colony. They did not develop mite resistance, but the mite, when in a more or less closed environment, changed to accommodate its own survival. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:38:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Less bees = less beans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 22/07/2008 01:13:49 GMT Daylight Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: <> That's exactly what happened to my broad beans this spring. In the end I had a good crop. Last year I had Crimson-flowered Beans flowering in the worst of the weather, and from 40 beans planted, I harvested 20. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:46:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany Comments: To: james.fischer@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <00b401c8e83f$910e5b40$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said: The actual evidence found to date from > sample analysis shows exactly the opposite, that pesticides have > nothing at all to do with CCD. Quote from the EPA distribution of Pesticide Program updates ( Speedy Bee July 2008) "Based on discussions with the German authorities ,the EPA believes this incident ( neonicotinoids Germany incident) is not related to CCD. ALTHOUGH PESTICIDE EXPOSURE IS ONE OF FOUR THEORETICAL FACTORS ASSOCIATED WITH CCD THAT THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE IS RESEARCHING' What part of the above do you have trouble understanding ? Jim said: > And high losses have continued in France even after the ban of the > pesticide, illustrating neatly that the original accusations were > misplaced. I have a list of France beekeepers which say the opposite. > >> Professor Joe Cummins had warned specifically against this class >> of new pesticides (Requiem for the Honeybee)... If you can not silence the opposition then attack their c3reditability . Very old tactic. One has to wonder how many bee kills in the U.S. have been exactly like the Germany cases? Jim says that it was because of not applying a polymer seed coating known as a "sticker". I agree in the Germany case. News flash to Jim so maybe he will understand why U.S. beekeepers are upset with our EPA. quote from the above EPA memo: "Although the formulation used in the U.S. also does not require a "sticker" on corn seed , it is typical practice to use "stickers on corn seed in the U.S." DOES NOT REQUIRE A STICKER! So far I have not found a single farmer which is using pesticide treated corn seed with a polymer seed coating. Still trying! ACTUALLY THE FARMERS SAY THEY WERE NEVER OFFERED OR TOLD THEY NEEDED A STICKER. Hello EPA if reading this post. Lets require a sticker on ALL pesticide treated corn seed! You have to be pretty naive to believe the neonicotinoids are not killing bees in the U.S. in certain areas! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:33:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: >You have to be pretty naive to believe the neonicotinoids are not killing bees in the U.S. in certain areas! Hmm. Some folks are saying the same thing about the chemicals that beekeepers are dumping in the hive. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:42:29 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison quoted from the Speedy Bee (July 2008): > "Based on discussions with the German authorities, the EPA > believes this incident (neonicotinoids Germany incident) > is not related to CCD. ALTHOUGH PESTICIDE EXPOSURE IS ONE > OF FOUR THEORETICAL FACTORS ASSOCIATED WITH CCD THAT THE > U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE IS RESEARCHING" > What part of the above do you have trouble understanding ? There's no misunderstanding at all, unless anyone was hazy on the meaning of the word "THEORETICAL". :) MaryAnn Frazier has worked like a dog on the pesticide residues and analysis issue, and she does not have even faint dots to connect. Yes, it is true that USDA intends to keep looking at the possibility that pesticides might be involved, but CCD is clearly a pathogen problem, one that does not correlate to any single pesticide, class of pesticides, or specific combination of pesticides. MaryAnn has not yet published any results, but she has been very open with her preliminary findings, as is easy to reach. Why not argue with her about why she hasn't found even a lame excuse for blaming pesticides of any sort, neonicotinoids included? I hate to subject her to such hectoring as you directed at me, but perhaps her own words in her own voice will seem more authoritative than mine. >> And high losses have continued in France even after >> the ban of the pesticide, illustrating neatly that >> the original accusations were misplaced. > I have a list of France beekeepers which say the opposite. Ask them to explain the losses they've had since the pesticide was banned, then. The statistics are around somewhere, as growers are trying to get the pesticide "unbanned", and are waving the figures around. >> Professor Joe Cummins... > If you can not silence the opposition then attack their > creditability. This is a somewhat personal attack upon me, and is thereby unacceptable behavior. Manners, please. Joe Cummins' qualifications are easy to verify, and his work is easy to find in any citation database. Peter Borst and I have each independently checked out the CV of Mr. Joe Cummins, and a review of his writings show him to be an activist who does no actual research to support his claims, one who publishes no peer-reviewed papers to support his claims. Yes, he taught school some time ago, but he is retired now. He is claiming credibility he simply does not have. It is not an "attack" to accurately describe someone's actual qualifications. (Peter, care to add more on this?) > One has to wonder how many bee kills in the U.S. have been > exactly like the Germany cases? I haven't heard of any, and the amount of pesticide applied here in the US is much less than was used in the German incident. 0.5 mg rather than 1.25 mg per seed. The other difference here is that the seed are treated consistently by larger centralized plants, so there is less chance for variation. If the pesticide failed to adhere to the seeds, it would be very clear in lots of places that something was wrong. Note that everyone wants the pesticide to stick to the seed, as this is the only place it will protect against the rootworm and other pests. > Jim says that it was because of not applying a polymer seed > coating known as a "sticker". I agree in the Germany case. Please don't paraphrase me incorrectly. I did NOT say that no polymer was applied. I said it was applied incorrectly, and did not keep the pesticide attached to the seeds. Big difference. > News flash to Jim so maybe he will understand why U.S. > beekeepers are upset with our EPA. Jim writes many of the news flashes, so he is well aware of beekeeper feelings toward the EPA. Most of the run-around starts with the EPA having ceded the enforcement part of their job to the States, who are often the worst offenders themselves. > quote from the above EPA memo: > "Although the formulation used in the U.S. also does not > require a "sticker" on corn seed , it is typical practice > to use "stickers on corn seed in the U.S." > > DOES NOT REQUIRE A STICKER! Calm down - no one in their right mind would try to simply mix the pesticide in a pail of seeds, as that would not protect all the seeds properly. The "sticker" is the only way to assure a consistent per-plant dose. > So far I have not found a single farmer which is using > pesticide treated corn seed with a polymer seed coating. > Still trying! ACTUALLY THE FARMERS SAY THEY WERE NEVER > OFFERED OR TOLD THEY NEEDED A STICKER. A simple web search shows that a number of outlets have been offering corn pre-treated with the exact chemical used in the German incident, and of course, using a "sticker". Here's just one: http://www.icorn.com/corn-treatment-poncho.aspx And they say here: http://www.icorn.com/treatment-corn.aspx "All hybrids come pre-treated with Poncho 250 at no additional charge." So, my conclusion would be that the farmers you talked to were unaware that the seeds that they bought were pre-treated (using the polymer "sticker") and they can't tell the difference! Other outlets include: http://pfisterhybrid.com/index.cfm?pageID=19 http://www.garstseedco.com/GarstClient/GarstNews/news.aspx?NewsItem=10016 http://www.dahlmanseed.com/corn.html http://www.doeblers.com/05%20WEB/05%20WEB%20PONCHO.pdf http://www.dahlcoseeds.com/pages/agronomy.html http://www.lgseeds.com/lg_tech/tech_91.pdf I could go on, but anyone can use Google (except it appears, John McCain). Bayer's got a whole "program" for growers: http://www2.bayercropscience.ca/poncho/Index.aspx So if no one is using this seed, there are a lot of very sad salesmen and distributers out there sitting on massive unsold inventories of the treated seeds. > You have to be pretty naive to believe the neonicotinoids are > not killing bees in the U.S. in certain areas! No, the naive view is always the one that believes something without even a shred of hard data to back up the belief. If there are neonicotinoid pesticide kills in the US, they are certainly not due to treated seeds. They are more likely to be cases where neonicotinoids are SPRAYED. That's the thing about seed treatments - no spraying. I like that, and anyone who thinks about it for even a moment will too. The reason that the German incident made the news at all was that the event was highly improbable and unusual. That's why it was considered "newsworthy". **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:09:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: >You have to be pretty naive to believe the neonicotinoids are not killing bees in the U.S. in certain areas! Peter wrote: Hmm. Some folks are saying the same thing about the chemicals that beekeepers are dumping in the hive. Says you and Brian? Actually some folks do not have a clue what's being used in the 2 and a half million hives in the U.S.. Only a percent of a percent sampled? give me a break! How many hives do you look at when you check a commercial beeks bees? What percent? How many samples do you take and send off to the lab? Be honest please? Bee inspectors know the least! Certainly not in the loop of commercial beeks. Give me some examples. Have you busted any beeks in New York using illegal methods? How many? What were they using? Two in Minnesota I was told and was not even one percent of beekeepers. Come on and back up your statements with facts Brian . Not what you "think" is going on. Commercial beek *Lurkers* from Minnesota came on line to protest Brian's comments! I think some on Bee-L want to paint commercial beeks with the same broad paint brush! What percent of the New York beekeepers were they? You made the statement now back up your comment with facts please. My contacts said a few minutes ago that there has been no beeks busted for using illegal treatments in the last year. Are they correct? Please answer. My contacts said two in Minnesota but they did not know what was on the shop towels. The two most found compounds in the CCD comb samples were fluvalinate and coumaphos . both legal treatments for varroa. Why would you expect to not find those the most? Silence again? \ I said I would debate any member of the CCD working group on their findings. No takers yet! I ask the tough questions without a stutter! At national meetings some researchers make sure their presentations run long enough so they do not have to answer questions. They say they will be around all week to answer questions but seem to slip out quickly after the presentation. The head of one bee lab even left before his labs presentation was over at the National convention. Some on BEE-L did not have a problem with his leaving. Many beeks did! I have pushed for a debate between a commercial beekeeper and a member of the CCD team on CCD at a national meeting. I think would be very interesting. The heck with prepared presentations all the time! Maybe during the social hour when everybody has had a few drinks. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:38:45 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: So-called feral bees Comments: To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com In-Reply-To: <003c01c8ec02$a2bbde50$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jim Fischer, "solutions" to varroa that are "faith-based beekeeping" rather than "data-based beekeeping" (FGMO, small-cell, acetic acid vaporization, Dump-N-brush, et al). Reply: Interesting, you seem to like to confuse the treatment usage of FGMO, Acetic Acid Vaporization, Dump-N-brush doping treatments, etc are.....with small cell foundation and more natural small cell combs that don't use... and where beekeepers are told not to use ALL various treatments of drugs, chemicals, acids, fungicides, bacteriacides, viral inhibitors etc, including artificial feeds,or halfway between... like sugar dusting even!!!!! for crutches! And again, it is more then faith based beekeeping and many do keep track of their bees by observation, perhaps even more then just applying all the various dopes! Dee A. Lusby p.s. somehow over 2100 members and growing, wanting to go clean and sustainable cannot be too wrong! but only if one wants clean hives fwiw. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:23:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: So-called feral bees- A little turn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The mite resistant bees I have seem to have a trait that is hard to explain, but I have seen it enough to feel that it is a real pattern.....I have seen it for years so I feel a high level of confidence about it. It is this: My bees have a way higher percentage of drone infestation(varroa) in spring than in later summer...where many times it dwindles to a very low level. Hundreds of drone samples seem to confirm this(I wrote abut it earlier on Bee-L...maybe 5 years ago...or a reply to an Australian beekeeper who was on Bee-l) Anybody heard of that happening? John Horton N. Ala **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 02:41:19 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: 2 questions wasRe: [BEE-L] So-called feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit here is are two questions i have, i've hinted at them in the past, but would like to put them right out there...as answers would be interesting, and would help me sort out a few things in my own mind. 1. who is keeping productive bees that were bred by any of the researchers that have been mentioned, that are not using any treatments? clearly, we have at least a few examples (dee, michael bush, eric osterland) of people that have either bred their own stock, used commercial, or used feral stock that _do_ use small cell, and are not crashing due to varroa over the long term...so how do the results of these 20 year "breeding programs" compare? who isn't treating? i believe that the russian breeding program does not allow treatments..but what of beekeepers that are using russian stock...are they treating? 2. what happens when bees are put onto comb from deadouts due to nosema c. when no treatments, fumigation, or irradiation is used? do such bees tend to survive? thrive? die? what kind of timeframe? deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:54:41 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: 2 questions wasRe: [BEE-L] So-called feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 1. who is keeping productive bees that were > bred by any of the researchers that have been > mentioned, that are not using any treatments? Gosh, Dean - Dee just said: "over 2100 members and growing", http://tinyurl.com/6fukbo But you have to ask us over here on Bee-L for names of people not using any treatments with productive bees? Why can't you give us a list of at least a thousand happy beekeepers who meet your criteria? Most beekeepers would not willingly don the hair-shirt of the dogma of "no treatments", as they would end up with the same sort of massive losses to things like Nosema ceranae that Dee Lusby had. Beekeeping isn't a religion with dogma to most people. It also isn't a competition to find out who is the most faithful of the faith-based beekeepers. It is a simple pleasure for many, a labor of love for a few, and a struggle for profit for fewer still. None of them have much time for something that that is a bit like Scientology, but without the celebrities or extraterrestrials. For most beekeepers, flexibility is the best tool, and dogma of any sort does for beekeeping what the Spanish Inquisition did for Catholicism. If the past 20 years have taught us anything, it should have taught us to have a deep and robust toolbox of alternatives to deal with invasive exotic pests, pathogens, and parasites of bees. But the lesson is hard for the newer beekeepers, as they haven't seen so much look so promising and then turn out to be so disappointing. > clearly, we have at least a few examples > (dee, michael bush, eric osterland) of people > that have either bred their own stock... And there is a clear and compelling explanation from Tom Seeley about what they actually "bred" as opposed what they might THINK they were breeding. Bill Truesdell did a fine job of summarizing here: http://tinyurl.com/5e9ne9 But the bottom line here is the most plausible explanation for why the same results cannot be reproduced elsewhere is that Dee, Michael, and Eric have been unwittingly breeding for less virulent mites, and had the luck of being isolated from other beekeepers. This tidy explanation fits everything we've seen in terms of subjecting bees to varroa under controlled conditions. Colonies claimed to be "immune" proved themselves anything but by dying out more quickly than even the controls. > what happens when bees are put onto comb from > deadouts due to nosema c. when no treatments, > fumigation, or irradiation is used? The bees tend to become reinfected with Nosema ceranae unless the comb is fumigated or sterilized. Eric Mussen would be the authority here - check out his newsletter. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:14:45 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: So-called feral bees- A little turn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi John > My bees have a way higher percentage of drone infestation > (varroa) in spring than in later summer Is it the case that your bees have relatively few drone brood in spring and many in summer? A colony holding Varroa numbers stable would have a high proportion of drone brood infested when there are few, and a low proportion when there are many simply because there is an overabundance of brood for them then. all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:38:24 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All I suspect that trying to come between Jim and Bob will not be painless, but let's try .... Jim: 'MaryAnn has not yet published any results, ... ' Try this: http://www.ento.psu.edu/MAAREC/CCDPpt/WhatPesticidesToDoWithItJune08ABJ.pdf Bob: 'You have to be pretty naive to believe the neonicotinoids are not killing bees in the U.S. in certain areas!' I agree with you Bob, in that the use of them is so widespread that there must be problems somewhere. Not CCD though, probably. In the paper from the link above you will find that of the 17 most commonly detected pesticides detected in bee bread and trapped pollen not one was a neonicotinoid. Of the 11 most commonly detected pesticides in wax, not one was a neonicotinoid. Not that I'm not saying that MaryAnn Frazier, or me, is claiming whether they got there by legal or illegal means, it is just that if you want to point the finger at pesticides the first two (maybe the first three) are put there by beekeepers somehow. Now, let's all be nice to each other, eh?! all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 04:28:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Honey Gel Reduces Sting of Wound Treatment Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Honey Gel Reduces Sting of Wound Treatment Healing Without the Sting Keith Cutting Discusses the Renaissance of Honey as a Therapeutic Agent in Wound Management Journal of Community Nursing, 7/21/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/07/honey-gel-reduces-sting-of-wound.html …Melladerm® PLUS is intended for use in all types of wounds, including burns and is derived from Bulgarian (BULGARIA H) mountain flower honey. Bulgaria H has been selected on the basis of its excellent wound healing properties. Melladerm® PLUS is a proprietary wound ointment/gel that contains 45% BULGARIA H and a mixture of ingredients including glycerin and polyethylene glycol 4000 (PEG 4000) to make the honey dressing more user friendly. PEG 4000 is a blend of water soluble polymers and its use as an additive to honey has been assessed by Subrahmanyam (1996). Clinical evaluation reports prepared as part of a submission for CE marking on Melladerm Plus demonstrate healing without the disadvantage of occasionally incurring pain following application (Vandeputte 2007)… **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:04:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit me: >Hmm. Some folks are saying the same thing about the chemicals that >beekeepers are dumping in the hive. Bob: >Says you and Brian? No. Not me. I would prefer to see some actual evidence linking chemicals and the problems we see in honey bees today. I don't doubt there is a potential link, but no one has proved anything. That said, I think we should aggressively pursue any potential connection there. I believe this is being done at present. >How many hives do you look at when you check a commercial beeks bees? What >percent? How many samples do you take and send off to the lab? > >Be honest please? If you mean samples I send in for pesticide residues, zero. The NY apiary inspection program is not monitoring what chemicals are applied to hives. What I see in hives is strictly confidential in any case. The only samples I take are: smear and comb samples to confirm AFB diagnosis; adult bee samples to check for nosema; adult bees to test for Africanization. I do mite counts in the field. The NY state apiary inspection program is making a strong effort to regain the confidence of beekeepers and provide cutting edge assistance on assessing the current state of honey bee health in NY state. I am hoping to see some reports out of Albany in the near future but I can tell you nosema is widespread and the numbers are high. In my area, AFB is way down. Bee losses are all over the map and there is no smoking gun. Peter Borst PS. I did a little research on sampling size and it is really an argument you don't want to go into unprepared. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:47:59 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re- So called feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In his post of 21st July 2008, Randy Oliver referred to the situation of da= rk feral bees and yellow managed bees in Western Australia, with a referenc= e to the hope that I would comment. Although having been unable to comment = until now, I hope these comments will not be too late. I have certainly fou= nd the debate an interesting one, and agree wholeheartedly with all the com= ments Randy made in that posting. If I can, I would like to further explain= /describe the "feral" population we have. This is best done by referring r= eaders to New Zealand queen breeder David Yanke's excellent paper in the vi= ewpoint section of his website.=20 http://www.queenbees.co.nz/view3.shtml In his "Presentation to the 2002 Bay of Plenty Field Day", David wrote this= about the NZ situation, which mirrored exactly the situation here in Weste= rn Australia:- "The 2 races we have could not be more different from each other. During th= e evolution of Apis mellifera, as the bees moved west towards Europe and Af= rica from their origins in Asia, they branched apart with one branch moving= west and down into Africa to overwhelm that whole continent, while another= branch moved north and west into South Eastern Europe. Our Italians, along= with the Carniolans, belong to this northern branch, while our black bees,= the dark European bee of western Europe, shares it's evolutionary past wit= h the North African races, after crossing back into W. Europe when there wa= s a land bridge at Gibraltar. While Carniolans and Italians are very closel= y related, with Carniolans being described as the grey version of the Itali= an, our black bees are a whole different kettle of fish. It seems incredibl= e to suggest that our black bees are more closely related to the African ra= ces than they are to our yellow bees, but it is true. When you work with th= em, or try to breed yellow bees true to their race in their presence, then = it is easier to believe. So we have this situation where we already have on= e race at each end of the racial spectrum. One of the best, in our Italian = bees, and undoubtedly, the worst of the European races in our black bees. T= heir only redeeming feature is their hardiness, but then that works against= us as well, because it is why they exist ferally as well as they do. They = are always impossibly nervous, usually nasty, produce little honey, and hav= e little resistance to brood diseases, especially chalkbrood. They give dar= ker bees, or any bee they cross with, a bad name."=20 Back then, beekeepers in NZ, like those in Western Australia today, had onl= y those 2 choices; bees derived from (golden yellow) Italian breeding stock= (which was well maintained) or darker bees (black) with varying degrees of= heritage from the feral stock. Both contribute drones to the mix when virg= in queens are open mated, but for a variety of reasons, the darker bees gen= es dominate in the offspring, so without a continual effort to input the It= alian (highly selected and bred) genes into the managed stock, those behavi= oral traits of good behaviour, less swarming tendency and high productivity= are lost, and eventually the stock reverts to black. Which is why the fera= l population is black. >From various Bee-L postings, I have come to the view that this situation is= not unique to NZ and Western Australia. Others may wish to comment. Some beekeepers here in Western Australia, do not avail themselves of the I= talian stock from our Rottnest Island breeding programme, since in the cold= er, wet and windy parts to the south of our state (adjacent to the southern= ocean,) these bees do not thrive year round as well as the hardier dark be= es, which tend to be the bees of choice. Managing these dark bees requires = a much higher degree of fortitude, good gloves and gaiters (since they love= to attack the ankles!) than does managing the Italians. Swings and roundab= outs I guess. Our feral population has suffered quite serious population decline due to s= tarvation in the protracted drought we have experienced for the past severa= l years, but is now bouncing back since the rain came earlier this year. Ho= wever, it is still black! So will we find varroa resistance genes in the feral population here? Proba= bly not... but if we don't look we will never know. Randy has certainly enc= ouraged us to look for them in all our stocks, by testing a proportion of o= ur queens in other places where varroa is present. Suggestions are now bein= g considered as to how any genetically derived varroa tolerance could be ma= intained in the managed stocks in the absence of the varroa challenge, beca= use come the evil day that varroa arrives, we want to be as well prepared a= s possible. It appears our federal government is now aware of the magnitude= of the varroa challenge to our nation's agriculture and food security, so = funding may soon become available to help research ways to deal with the pr= oblem, even though as yet we don't have it! As in NZ, there those here (myself included), who believe that importation = of the proven varroa tolerant/resistant stocks that have been developed els= ewhere in the world is an important first step in achieving some defence ag= ainst varroa when the incursion comes. However, again as in NZ, there are t= hose here who vehemently resist this approach as a threat to the survival o= f their beloved Italian stocks, and their objections have certainly held sw= ay to date. Fortress West Australia stands resolute against the world...the= world of progress in my view! David Yanke's viewpoint pages highlight the = protracted 3 decades battle he had to achieve any new stock importation int= o NZ. He eventually succeeded in importing Carniolian semen which he has us= ed to good effect to produce the "Southern Cross Carniolians" line. Beekeep= ers there now have increased choice. Here in Western Australia we have reac= hed 3 decades of lock down on stock imports, but I fear we are still a long= way from achieving any change to that policy. "White Australia" has disapp= eared from our national immigration policy and attitude towards human popul= ation, which has broadened substantially, but there has been no such broade= ning of policy or attitudes in respect of the bee population here in the we= st of the wide brown land! If I wished to import new gene stock for cattle,= horses, sheep, pigs etc, the world is my oyster (within Biosecurity limita= tions of course). But not bee genes...not under any circumstances! Yet. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:37:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Simms Subject: Re: So-called feral bees Comments: To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dee Lusby has made many good points regarding withdrawal from chemical trea= tments to keep bees bandaged up to just stay alive.=A0 Let's face it, chemi= cals do not restore health in the apiary, they forstal the problem to a lat= er date when either the source of the problem overcomes the chemistry or th= e beekeeper isn't so diligent in applying the chemistry.=0AIf one were to c= onfuse beekeeping management strategies with religion, I would say that the= dogma of beekeeping is the belief and faith in chemicals to restore health= to beekeeping.=A0 That faith is poorly placed and a source of ongoing prob= lems in pest and disease management.=0AI have been abstaining from chemical= s in my sideliner beekeeping operation for more than three years now - expe= riencing losses of just under 50% per year, typically.=A0 If the weather ha= d cooperated better with queen rearing and splitting, I would be able to ma= intain my colony count under these conditions.=A0 My hope is to arrive at s= urvivor stock genetics, care of God's greatest creation mechanism: natural = selection.=A0 Better=A0genetics will survive and overcome.=A0 The biggest p= roblem and concern for my size of operation is that I may arrive at survivo= r stock, but in too small of a population of colonies to be a viable gene= =A0pool size.=A0 I don't know, it is an experiment in progress.=0A=A0=0AUnf= ortunately, most commercial beekeepers can't afford to experiment with thei= r livelihood.=0AEric in Howe, TX=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:40:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: 2 questions wasRe: [BEE-L] So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: <20080722.224119.21948.1@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Deknow & All, 1. I have tested all you listed. Over several years and have concluded I have not found a bee yet which will work for the commercial beekeepers doing migratory pollination without some treatemnts. IPM. However I still remian optimistic that a line will be found in the future. Deknow asks: . what happens when bees are put onto comb from deadouts due to nosema c. when no treatments, fumigation, or irradiation is used? I can say from personal experience that when nosema ceranae spore counts are high all hives placed on the comb are he least "dinks'. Or at least "dinks" as compared to hives on clean comb and free of high levels of nosema ceranae in the bees. Why would they not be? The first and foremost rule of commercial beekeeping. Also maybe the first time I ever posted the rule on BEE-L. RULE 1 YOU NEED HEALTHY BEES TO MAKE A LIVING FROM BEES! Bob Harrison Randy has found some exceptions and there are always exceptions but only healthy hives are used in commercial migratory outfits. "dinks" only fit in research yards and hobby back yards. Maybe shocking but I do not name my queens. Doing so makes a pet of a hive rather than a production unit. I name my dog/cat or horse. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:46:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maybe Bob is getting his info from this site http://www.naturalnews.com/023679.html wow! this is some of the most misleading sensationalistic junk I have seen yet on the web concerning CCD. I urge all of you to request it be removed from that site immediately. Very disrespectful to the many dedicated researchers who are working on CCD. I sent them an email requesting it be removed as it is so flawed. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:57:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: PS. I did a little research on sampling size and it is really an argument you don't want to go into unprepared. Samples are taken to find problems correct? Bottom line: If the beekeeper wishes to treat only the hives with problems then he/she needs to monitor ALL hives. A method never recommended by the USDA_ARS to commercial beeks. Once you move away from checking each hive for all disease at regular intervals then you move into sampling a few which has a margin of error. With 2 and a half million hives spread over a country 3000 miles wide a big margin of error. The commercial beek following the methods taught us by researchers is simple. You test and if you feel treatment is needed you treat ALL hives in the yard. I realize internet lists are mostly hobby beeks and the scope of commercial beekeeping is hard to grasp but I can say that I completely agree with Jim on his post that not treating for today's problems would soon put me out of the bee business or make beekeeping unprofitable. I need healthy bees to survive. Sampling as done by the CCD team has a margin of error. agreed? bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:53:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: posts with attitude MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks, The following is an editorial on the "attitudes" going about BEE-L lately. I try to keep a loose grip on "posts with attitude". Were I to keep as tight a grip as some feel I should there would be very little traffic on the list (some would opine this would be a good thing). After years of moderation I have learned to recognize very early on posts that have the potential to escalate into incivility. If I nip things in the bud, discussion suffers. Yet the further I let things go the harder it gets to keep things in check. Posts that attack one's knowledge of basic math, or posts that start out with, "So and so accused ..." are NEGATIVE posts. Regardless of the content that follows a negative assertion, once a slap is delivered it is hard for the assailed party to turn the other cheek. And responses that up the ante (I was assaulted so I have every right to hit back with more force) most often die in my inbox. Realize that sometimes the best way to handle an affront is simply to walk away (or on the internet, sometimes the best and most effective response is no response at all). Please folks, PLEASE! Check your ego at the door. Confront ideas, stupidity, theories, postulates, dogma, ... But DO NOT confront the authors. Keep the discussion civil or simply do not post! Aaron Morris - wishing we could all just get along! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:57:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany In-Reply-To: <596633.63687.qm@web86202.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try this: http://www.ento.psu.edu/MAAREC/CCDPpt/WhatPesticidesToDoWithItJune08ABJ.pdf Gavin this paper refers to CCD . CCD has yet to have a clear cause of CCD. Four possible areas the USDA is looking at. The neonicotinoids are a clear problem and not to be confused with a maybe "Ghost" problem which may even be a natural occurrence which has happened all throughout beekeeping history when bees die. Google "disappearing disease". Never solved. Sure everyone has an *opinion* on what is killing the bees. CCD is a name for a set of symptoms and nothing more at this time. end of story. Certainly no pathogen has been found and listed as the cause of CCD. Maybe one will be but at this time all claims of CCD being caused by a pathogen are strictly hypothesis! All statements on BEE_L about CCD being caused by a pathogen should start with "in my opinion" Neonicotinoid kills around the world are real problems and the 2 million dollar award in Germany says so! Does any member of the list believe what happened in Germany can not happen in the U.S.? Nosema ceranae is a real problem for beekeepers. NOT to be confused with whatever is CCD. As beekeepers we do not fight or chase ghosts. We deal with real issues. However it is my *opinion* that some of the reported CCD cases were in fact either nosema ceranae or neonicotinoid caused. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:25:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roni Subject: Queen introduction and acceptance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm introducing a new queen to a split. I do not have a nuc available. What things can I do to help the queen be accepted. This is one of Dan Purvis' queens going into a Buckfast hive. Roni **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:42:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison referred to: "What Have Pesticides Got To Do With It" June ABJ A direct quote: > Figure 4 summarizes our findings and highlights our major concerns regarding the *unknown consequences* for honey bee health. This means that the consequences are unknown at this time. Be that as it may, they go on to recommend: > Reduce pathogen and pesticide build-up in combs by regularly culling old comb, recycling comb and/or irradiation of old comb. This is particularly recommended for dead-out colonies. ! If you eliminate as much as possible the potential sources of contamination, you may have gone a long way toward either solving the problem, or narrowing down the potential causes. If we can get healthy bees through better management, we don't really need to know which of the various factors was the most responsible for making them sick. We do not have to wait for proof to begin to take action. Still, the recommendation to take action does not constitute proof of anything. Furthermore, I am also be recommending to beekeepers to either stay clear of cropland, or charge a hefty fee if you and your bees' services are required. If farmers want bees around, *they* had better make sure they are not the ones who are killing them. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:06:06 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Queen Introduction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Roni asked for information on how to introduce a valuable queen...gosh, it is nice to get a real beekeeping question instead (in addition to) all the research and opinion stuff! Roni, one of the best methods is to put the queen in between two frames, with the wire unobstructed (so the bees can get used to the new queen's pheromones) and leave the cork in BOTH holes. Leave both corks in for a minimum of 24 hours, 36 hours is better, but I'd say no more than 48 hours. Then gently remove the cage from the frame and look carefully at the bees on the wire. Are any trying to sting through the wire? If so, there is probably a virgin queen in the split...or a laying queen. If this is the case, make up a new split and repeat. If no bees are trying to sting through the wire, take the cork out of the candy end and put the cage back between the frames. Return in 48 hours. If the queen is released, and she almost certainly will be, don't look for her but take the cage out of the hive. In two weeks look for sealed brood. If you see it, your queen introduction was successful! If you don't see it...something happened or you got a bum queen. Hope this helps, Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:19:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Queen introduction and acceptance In-Reply-To: <200807231535.m6NCuT5Q005244@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Roni, You should request a copy of "Advanced Introduction Technique for hard to introduce or high value queens" from Dann. This is an instructional sheet done when Russians used to be harder to introduce and when we kept them. It is applicable now because it can give some folks information on how to introduce under difficult situations. There are as many different ways to intro as there are beekeepers. Some of our queens may be hard to introduce if you do not have our bloodline in your stock. This is occurs only occasionally. http://web.mac.com/dannpurvis/iWeb/Purvis%20Brothers%20Bees.com/Referenc e.html Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:59:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: 2 questions wasRe: [BEE-L] So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: <5E6DE035440642A99D62D924494B4541@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >RULE 1 > > YOU NEED HEALTHY BEES TO MAKE A LIVING FROM BEES! Bob Harrison Thanks, Bob, for your great Rule--I agree wholeheartedly! There are no exceptions. When I said that some colonies were thriving with nosema, the point was that those colonies were healthy, despite having some level of nosema. If those same colonies were to become nutritionally stressed, they would likely spiral downhill. In my own operation this year, we've had three things hammer us--our two main honey flows did not materialize, and because of that, toxic buckeye bloom knocked our 10-12 framers back to struggling 4-6 framers. Both of those problems were beyond our control, and not due to mites or nosema. But you can bet that those colonies are now UNHEALTHY, and sitting ducks for mites or nosema problems. Similarly to you, we are not interested in nursing dinks, and have already combined many. The rest we are moving to better pasture and/or feeding. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:15:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: 2 questions wasRe: [BEE-L] So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: <20080722.224119.21948.1@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dean asked: > 1. who is keeping productive bees that were bred by any of the researchers > that have been mentioned, that are not using any treatments? > Hi Dean, I just got off from a long phone call with a Southeastern migratory beekeeper whose family runs some 10,000 colonies. I mention this since his management reflects what I hear from many commercial operators. There are few operators who don't use at least one synthetic miticide treatment a year--they have too much at stake to take chances with varroa. But most all I talk to are concerned about chemical levels in their colonies, and trying to minimize treatments. Treatments are costly in labor, but better than having dead colonies, so they try to balance. The Southeast beek runs Russians, and is very happy with them. They allow him to keep treatments down to one synthetic, and two thymol treatments (Apiguard, or homemade). He also makes lots of splits, which is a common denominator of many successful operations. His operation is far from "organic," but it is indicative of the shift away from the constant miticide treatments common a few years ago in commercial operations. As the commercial stocks slowly get better (with regard to mites), treatment frequency can go down. I find this to be a very encouraging sign that we are making progress! This progress will become very important if Amitraz is pulled fromt the market, as mentioned by David VanDerDussen. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:25:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: Queen Introduction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here is a little more information on queen introduction. Feeding the colony helps if there is no nectar coming in. I prefer to use push-in wire cages so the queens are on comb and can start to lay eggs. Here is a description with pictures: http://members.aol.com/queenb95/QnIntroInstr.html **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:54:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Coumarin and bee sting therapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a friend who recently had knee replacement surgery, who is also an ardent proponent of bee sting therapy. My friend is now taking Dr. prescribed Coumarin and asked if I knew of anyone who might have first hand experience with a combined Coumarin/bee sting regimen? Anyone? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:40:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Queen Introduction Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Greetings: Lloyd's got good points also one other method to test if there is another queen present simply involves a three hole queen cage one simply removes the screen and replaces it with perforated foundation . the queen will be fed and released by other bees by chewing through the was if no other queen is present if another queen is present they will attempt to seal over the holes so you have to be vigilant to see that you don't loose the sealed in queen Walter Ontario ________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a good movie? Check out our 2008 Summer Movie Guide. http://entertainment.aol.ca/summer-movies/?icid=AOLENT00310000000005 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:49:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Coumarin and bee sting therapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: joe bossom [mailto:joebossom@hotmail.com] Subject: mis spelling I think that the drug you alluded to is coumadin, aka warfarin sodium = ,which is prescribed to diminish clotting in blood and thereby reduce = the risk of stroke in, among others, patients with irregular heartbeats. = I have used both coumadin and bee sting therapy for arthritic fingers = for about a decade and have not noticed any ill effects. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:27:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Coumarin and bee sting therapy In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA341025137F9@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > I have a friend who recently had knee replacement surgery, who is also > an ardent proponent of bee sting therapy. My friend is now taking Dr. > prescribed Coumarin and asked if I knew of anyone who might have first > hand experience with a combined Coumarin/bee sting regimen? Anyone? > Interesting , but google it and you get a lot of use of coumarin to counter bee and insect stings, so you may have a problem with one neutralizing the other. This is one of those questions that even your Doctor probably has no idea what happens. A bigger question is what are the bee stings for? If the knee, I would be very cautious since you are creating a wound with the sting which might allow bacteria to enter and that is terribly dangerous since they go right for the operation site. I would not do it, after seeing what a friend went through after a knee operation and bacterial infection. My wife had a knee operation and has to take preventative antibiotics with every visit to the Dentist. So bacterial infection and knee replacement are closely linked. I would use honey on the wound, however, with the Doctor's permission. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:00:13 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: > Certainly no pathogen has been found and listed as the cause of CCD. Pathogens are the ONLY credible suspects being considered as causes of CCD. Read this, from months ago: http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2008.04.25.11.04.archive.html The astute reader will note that pesticides are not even mentioned as being suspected. So will the non-astute reader. Even the theory of a "pesticide trigger" has been abandoned, and one need look no further than MaryAnn Fraizer's work to see why. There certainly might be a "miticide trigger", but pesticides like Neonicotinoids have a very good alibi - they have not been found anywhere near the scene of the crime by any of the forensic analysis. And while I said: >> MaryAnn has not yet published any results... Gavin said: > Try this: > http://www.ento.psu.edu/MAAREC/CCDPpt/WhatPesticidesToDoWithItJune08ABJ.pdf I'm sorry, when I said "published", I meant publication in a peer-reviewed journal, rather than a magazine for beekeepers. :) The information provided in the ABJ article is certainly encouraging, but it is not MaryAnn's "final results". Of course MaryAnn will keep looking, and of course she will continue to keep an open mind until she is satisfied that she has looked under every single rock. Anyway, the irony of the conspiracy theorists who want to blame pesticides is that they themselves are the ones producing the misinformation that causes people to believe in an alternate reality. Bob said: > Sure everyone has an *opinion* on what is killing the bees. Why is it that everyone with an preconceived notion or an agenda makes the error of reducing all scholarly inquiry to mere stances? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts. Facts are backed by hard data, and if Bob's persistent accusations against Neonicotinoids had any merit at all, MaryAnn's data would look very different from what it looks like. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:10:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Volcanic Ash and Weather? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, I have a collection articles from honeybee mortality years in the archives of the Historical Honeybee Articles Archive, appropriately placed in folder 13. As a side project to the mortality folder, I had spent a few moments last winter correlating some of the major die offs to volcanic eruptions. The project is shelved it for now, its basically winter work, and I hope to work on it more this winter. First heres a few links that are related: How a Volcano Eruption Wiped Away Summer 1816, the "year without summer." NPR Audio Recording: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15448607 Notable Volcanic Disasters http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Hazards/Effects/Fatalities.html Although there have been many years that have had bee dieoffs. Some of the more devastating dieoffs seem to be after a volcanic event. In certain years the losses have been excessive. The season of 1884-85 stands out in the history of American beekeeping as one of terrible devastation. Pg. 343, E.F. Phillips, BEEKEEPING (1915) Volcanic Activity: Krakatau Indonesia 1883 =====Some New During the Time==== The Galveston Daily News Tuesday, September 09, 1884 Galveston, Texas McKinney, September 8. The rainfall has been less this summer than any year since 1881... The honey crop of this county is a total failure this year. ===== Iowa State Reporter Friday, January 16, 1885 Spirit Lake, Iowa with great unanimity they denounce the honey dew as the cause of the unexampled and ruinous losses of bees during the past winter. One bee-keeper loses fifty-one out of fifty-three colonies, and the two left, are miserably weak. Others have lost ninety-five per cent Perhaps the excessive cold weather may have helped to produce these losses by destroying all the more readily the bees greatly weakened by disease caused by the unwholesome food. ========== During the winter of 1903-04 probably seventy percent of the bees in New England died Pg. 343, E.F. Phillips, BEEKEEPING (1915) Volcanic Activity: Soufrire St. Vincent (1902) Mount Pele Martinique (1902) Santa Maria Guatemala (1902) =====Some New During the Time==== Grand Rapids Tribune Wednesday, March 16, 1904 Grand Rapids, Wisconsin Hard on the Bees. Bee keepers report that the present winter has been an exceptionally hard one on the swarms, and that as a consequence there will be a great loss to keepers. Reports from other sections of the country are to the effect that the same conditions exist in many localities. Beekeepers are divided in their opinion as to the cause of the unusual mortality among the bees. Some ire of the opinion that' it is because the excessive cold has been so steady and long that the bees have not been able to move about enough to keep them in health, while others say that it is because there were very few young bees went into winter quarters, the consequence being that the natural death rate depletes the swarm until here is nothing left of it. Whatever is ,the cause, it is the general opinion that honey will be scarce next. season and that it will bring a high price. ==== The Galveston Daily News Saturday, May 20, 1905 Galveston, Texas DULL TIME FOR BEES. Hard Winter and Too Much Rain Curtails Industry. SPECIAL TO THE NEWS Beeville, Tex., May 19.Dr. C. S. Phillips, president of the Nueces Valley Beekeepers Association, states that the bee industry within the boundaries of his association is at the lowest ebb that it has reached in years. This condition Is due to the severe winter and the continuous heavy rains during the spring. Last winter the beekeepers suffered a loss, of probably 50 percent of their stock, and The rains during the spring have been detrimental to the honey flow in the flowers up to this time. Ho thinks, however, that the beekeepers will, if rains do not prevent, recoup their losses during the blooming season of mesquite in June. Mr. W. H. Laws, a committeeman from this association, has recently returned from a meeting In San Antonio of the committee of the National Beekeepers' Association of America. This association will hold its annual convention In San Antonio In October. An Interesting program has been prepared, and It is anticipated that a pleasant time and delightful entertainment, will be extended to the delegates In attendance, It being the first convention of the National association ever held in the South. Every State in the Union and the Dominion of Canada will be represented. Best Wishes Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:20:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids Banned in Germany In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe Bob is getting his info from this site http://www.naturalnews.com/023679.html First I have seen of the site. Of course the connection between the neonicotinoids and CCD at the site is suspect (at least in the U.S.) While at the site please take the time to review the six pages of lawsuits pending against Bayer. Like I said before bees dying takes a low priority to people dying. There is even a "Coalition against Bayer Dangers" but in the U.S. its business as usual. A Bayer aspirin a day will keep the doctor away! My favorite was the Bayer ad suggestion that perfectly healthy people would be healthier if they took a Bayer aspirin every day. Kind of like the shampoo twice makes your hair cleaner by the shampoo makers. Bob's future ad: A tablespoon of honey a day keeps the doctor away! Heck if each person would take a tablespoon of honey a day the beekeepers of the world could never keep up with demand! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:31:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Humic Substances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I have received information about a new product being sold to treat bees. It apparently contains humic substances, namely humic and fulvic acid, and 70 organic trace minerals. There have been many astonishing claims made about the value of humic substances. Evidently it can cure any number of serious disorders, as in this testimony: > For three years, I have been house bound due to Hepatitis C. Since taking [brand name suppressed], I have reduced my viral load in just 60 days. I feel more energetic, can travel again and have recovered from the side effects of past medications. Thanks for giving me my life back. Cass Sornson, Utah > Humic acid treatment for viruses that are linked to: Cancer, Influenza, Cold sores, Colds, Warts Flu, West Niles, Herpes (even under stress), Shingles, Hepatitus, HIV, Insect and rodent borne diseases, Yellow fever Norwalk virus (cruise ship sickness) > Humic extract deposits exist in areas where prehistoric vegetation was once abundant. These humic extracts (humic and fulvic acid) contain pure, preserved, prehistoric plant deposits found in approximately 77 trace elements and minerals. What they are talking about is an extract from peat. Peat is an accumulation of partially decayed vegetation matter. Peat forms in wetlands or peatlands, variously called bogs, moors, muskegs, pocosins, mires, and peat swamp forests. The idea of giving peat extracts to animals is not new: Peat as a feed supplement for animals > Peat is an easily available natural material and a source of biologically active substances widely used, not only in agriculture but in human and animal medicine as well. In recent years, interest in the use of peat as a feed supplement has increased. Beneficial effects of various peat preparations on digestion, growth and the immune systems of animals as well as the absorbent and detoxifying capabilities are associated with the high content of favorable humic substances. > Keywords: humate; humic substances; humic acid; fulvic acid; moor; mycobacteria; tuberculosis; Mycobacterium avium complex Swamp water cure. Wish I had thought of it. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:28:25 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: 2 questions wasRe: [BEE-L] So-called feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit sorry jim, i suppose i wasn't clear. when i said: "who is keeping productive bees that were bred by any of the researchers that have been mentioned, that are not using any treatments?" i did not just mean "people not using treatments", but specifically people not treating using stock from the researchers that have been mentioned recently who have been working for 20 years at breeding resistant stock. what have the labs come up with in 20 years? i know many people not using treatments successfully, but no one using stock that coming from researchers/labs. harbo, spivak, and others have been cited on this list over the last few weeks as researchers that have been working hard for years to produce mite resistant lines. -- James Fischer wrote: >The bees tend to become reinfected with Nosema ceranae unless the comb is fumigated or sterilized. well, this is intersting.....as the hives that dee lost last year (which you insist was simply nosema c.) have been repopulated from those in the same area that survived with no fumigation or sterilization, and are, according to dee, doing great. it's also interesting to note that these bees apparently are not "isolated enough" to prevent picking up nosema c. ...yet are apparently "isolated enough" to have bred for non virulent mites. anyone who is subscribed to the organic list will also have read that 17 hives in this area have had 5 frames from the middle of the brood nest "mysteriously disappear". illegals sometimes take a frame or 2 of honey from the tops of hives...but going down 3-4 boxes and taking 5 frames of brood is something else all together. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:38:00 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: 2 questions wasRe: [BEE-L] So-called feral bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi bob, i appreciate your response. this (from your "rule") jumped out at me: -- Bob Harrison wrote: "dinks" only fit in research yards and hobby back yards. how is research done on "dinks" applicable to strong production hives? i'm sure they are easier to work and to measure, but if we are looking for research to help us raise and care for strong, healthy bees, then it seems to me that is what should be used for research purposes. i have never seen seen a 'research yard' with my own eyes, so i'm only going on what you say here. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:59:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: 2 questions wasRe: [BEE-L] So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: <20080724.043800.8477.2@webmail13.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello deknow & All, I see a new list has came on the net for commercial beekeepers. About time. The commercial point of view is very different than most others. I have a close friend which says it takes around $200,000 dollars to simply open the doors of his bee farm for a month. When you enter a casino in Missouri the limit you can gamble is $500. Most take $20 to gamble with and when gone leave. beekeeping is high stakes poker today. Each hive is an investment. Equipment, support equipment, bees , feed, meds, fuel, a percent of the total cost of opening the doors is involved and the labor to maintain said hive. The same with all business but few beeks really look at costs. The first rule of commercial beekeeping is "healthy hives". The quickest way to bankruptcy is 80-90 % losses two years in a row. Once you get above the fifty percent dead out range you move into an area where you simply can not rebuild from your own bees and supply pollination contracts an produce honey as you did before. Rebuilding /cleaning dead outs and buying package bees takes money. Rebuilding costs run very high. In many cases you can buy hives cheaper than rebuilding old boxes with contaminated comb. Check the Bell Honey ads in the bee magazines. $100 for a single ( with top and bottom) in new Dadant equipment/ 2008 Kona queen and all new drawn comb which have never had a chemical treatment. Email me for contact info. The new method for keeping afloat today is constant splitting of hives. Dave Mendes (pres. ABF) has spoke on his methods. His losses since bees started crashing have been in the 50% range or higher. Dave makes splits after most major flows now. Instead of once a year like he used to. Some are now making splits both spring and fall. If you have not noticed package bee prices have risen like *oil* prices and in the Midwest we have to add around $10 a package for delivery! The dollar dropping to the Australian dollar has driven up Australian package prices. Today's commercial beekeeping is a complicated business world to survive in. deknow asks: >how is research done on "dinks" applicable to strong production hives? research hives are kept small for ease of checking. I keep hives in which you would be hard pressed to find the queen when full of bees. Hives coming out of pollination are boiling with bees. Often at a time when those left at home hives are on 4-5 frames of brood/bees. A big difference exists between varroa reproduction in a hive with 12 frames of brood and 60,000 bees being fed syrup to make the bees think a flow is still on and a research hive in a bee lab. However we understand why bee lab bees are kept the way they are. I can take you to bee yards where at times you can not get out of the truck without being stung as a semi has just been unloaded or the hives worked. You can not have sucn a situation around a university or even most bee labs. quote from the last page of the book "following the Bloom" "Across America with the Migratory Beekeepers" By Doug Whynott Doug speaking about the single hive he now keeps in his backyard: ( pg. 206) " I like to watch them,most of all,and now,when I see them making their sweeping arcs ,when they glide down among the crowds of bees at the hive entrance, I just watch." "Contraction has followed expansion, and I sometimes think of a Zen saying: "At first mountains were mountains, and then the mountains were not mountains, but some other thing, now the mountains are mountains again" Excellent book! From the above I can say for sure Doug has saw what commercial beekeepers see. One day the "mountains will be mountains again for Bob Harrison and not some other thing" bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:23:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: The Rules of Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob writes: > The first rule of commercial beekeeping is "healthy hives". > The quickest way to bankruptcy is 80-90 % losses two years in a row. > The same with all business but few beeks really look at costs. I don't think are many (if even any) beekeepers that don't "really look at costs". Only the astronomically wealthy or people with Alzheimer's aren't thinking about each and every dollar. Beekeepers usually diversify. Some get into other hive products, including the sale of bees. Some buy and sell honey from other producers. Some hold down other jobs. To define a commercial beekeeper as one who makes ALL his living from bees is unfair and wrong. I prefer a definition that includes anyone who is *trying to make most of their living from bees* and/or has at least 300 hives. Having this many hives or more is definitely no hobby. Your "first rule" is bit of a hard nut to crack. Really, the first rule is to have a business that is in the black. Naturally one can't hope to do this with diseased bees, but we are in an era where few people have really healthy hives, or if they do, they only have them by never letting their guard down. "Let alone" beekeeping is a thing of the past. As far as taking those sort of losses goes, that is precisely why beekeepers must diversify. In the past, beekeepers had plenty of bad seasons. That's why so many got big into pollination. There are plenty of locations that are fabulous some years and some years no honey is made. Beekeeping is not farming like raising raisins. You can get insurance on most crops so if you have a bad year you can ride it out. The savvy beekeeper is trying to make money a variety of ways: pollinate, sell nucs, bottle honey, teach, do research, you name it. In fact, I don't know anybody who doesn't "really look at costs". The days of driving into town because "we've run out of milk" are over when the gas to go and get it costs more than the milk. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:20:32 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: 2 questions wasRe: [BEE-L] So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: <3CA0EDF0131245DFB86F0CC157AE983D@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob Harrison > The new method for keeping afloat today is constant > splitting of hives.... His losses since bees started crashing have been in the 50% range or higher.... Instead of once a year like he used to. > Some are now making splits both spring and fall. Reply: This sounds like olden days of early 1980s and mid-1990s of bees starting to die and then when numbers couldn't be maintained due to ailments coming on, then the various treatments started and then got worse and worse. It was primary reason why Ed and I back then decided there had to be a better way, and a way also that stayed clean, for we just could't put the same chemicals we were lobbying against with BIPP into our hives and know we were doing it properly somehow. So we rationalized instead that management had to be changed to put things back into better harmony with nature and when reached, problems would stop, or at least could be bred thru, if willing to observe and follow what the bees were telling us they needed, which turned out to be simply a clean environment and in harmonoy field management wise with the environment, by latitude and altitude and own foraged food! Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:16:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The Rules of Beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: > Really, the first > rule is to have a business that is in the black. Naturally one can't > hope to do this with diseased bees, The above is not the same as my rule: You need healthy bees? Peter said: > Beekeeping is not farming like raising raisins. Bob replies with a grin! Raisins one needs to steer clear of in California. China raisens have run the costs down so much many California raisen growers have plowed perfectly good raisen grape vines out and are planting almond trees. I would definately not get into raisens! > Peter said: > In fact, I don't know anybody who doesn't "really look at costs". Lets say most do not look at costs the way I do. Saving money for some is driving 10 miles out of the way to buy 10 gallons of fuel 10 cents a gallon cheaper! Niche markets work well for sideline beeks but do not happen overnight. All the things you said take time away from the large beekeepers everyday operation of caring for many hives. Diversifying certainly hedges your risk. The big money in beekeeping will never be made in the size operation you describe. Although perhaps the most common operation. teach? My students usually quit after the first day. commercial beeks carry 10 lids at a time instead of a single lid many work all day without a break . hobby beeks use shallow supers. Many use deeps and they can weight 80 lbs. and up a piece. We work in 100F. weather and at times in rain with upset bees. Hobby beeks pick the perfect day. I have had two hernia surgeries and a rotator cuff in the last six years. has a member of a bee lab or hobby beek had those which are common in commercial beek circles. Most commercial beeks are getting older. Forty years ago I could (and often did) jump from the top of a semi to the ground. Now I need help getting down! Will my replacement please email , call or snail mail! bob Bob says with a grin: Perhaps Jim & Peter could become my students? Lets see. Free labor and worth a few grins and I could give each a certificate printed off my computer at the end of the season in a cheap wal mart frame. Hmmm. Perhaps I could even charge for teaching? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:00:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: 2 questions wasRe: [BEE-L] So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: <20080724.043800.8477.2@webmail13.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > Dean asked: how is research done on "dinks" applicable to strong production > hives? > When one gets rid of all the dinks, there are no sick hives left to figure out what went wrong with them. In my own research, dinks may be kept for comparison. In my nosema test yards, I have two universities comparing the differences in pathogens between the dinks and the thriving colonies. I lose money on the dinks. I lose money by not treating all colonies for nosema and mites. I'm letting nosema infection run its course in one yard--I lose colonies. Colonies in tests can't go to almonds if that adds a variable, or if they are too weak due to testing a treatment. Right now I'm looking for colonies with high mite levels, so that I can answer a sugar dusting question. If I allow some colonies to reach high mite levels, there is a good chance that those colonies will later die. The reasons above are why it is necessary for government or universities to perform some bee research--it is often costly for an individual beekeeper to take the loss of income involved. I know well. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:50:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Research hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob writes > Research hives are kept small for ease of checking. I keep hives in which you would be hard pressed to find the queen when full of bees. Hives coming out of pollination are boiling with bees. Often at a time when those left at home hives are on 4-5 frames of brood/bees. I don't know about elsewhere but at the Dyce Lab at Cornell, not true. I was there for 7 years and we always tried to keep the hives as strong as possible, and producing honey. There were some nucs and observation hives kept for various purposes, but any research that was aimed at commercial beekeeping was done with hives that were as good or better than commercial hives. Other times, we used commercial beekeepers' yards for precisely the same reason. You want to get results that can be applied to regular hives run by regular beekeepers. Look at what Randy is doing, he is using real hives for real results. Is he not a researcher? One summer at Dyce, we got 30 barrels off about 200 colonies. Not a fabulous crop but still pretty good considering all the experiments we were doing with the hives at the same time as trying to get a decent honey crop. If I work out a procedure that depends on opening the same hive every day for a month, or depends on it never being strong enough to get into the third story, what good is that? It isn't good for the big guy and probably not for the sideliner either.On the other hand, some of the things commercial beekeepers do to be expedient -- are definitely not in the best interest of the bees. But I understand we each do what we need to get the job done. I wouldn't criticize anybody without walking a mile in his shoes. PS: not only did I have to find the queens in hives boiling over with bees, but we often requeened the same hives several times during the same season. Got to love research! -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:04:22 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: 2 questions wasRe: [BEE-L] So-called feral bees In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10807241000y1d332a56yc631e0b4be0f6a1a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline For me the point apart from doing experimentation on the worst scenarios like Randy does, is to design "experiments" for the best scenarios. If I am doing good how can I do still better? Is it what I did this year replicable for the following? Read (study), Think, Decide and Act!!!! Allways act but left some hives behind with no "treatment" as a way to check if what you did (new) is better than before (old) or not doing anything. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:24:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: surprise wild bumblebees affected by managed bumblebees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601124&sid=aTRSdWWGdLOE&refer=home Bee Disease Spread From Commercial Hives, Study Finds By Alan Bjerga July 23 (Bloomberg) -- Wild bumblebees are probably contracting a disorienting and often fatal disease from their commercial cousins, contributing to the decline of pollinators in North America, a Canadian study concludes. Managed bumblebees, which pollinate crops worth about $19 billion worldwide, are introducing illnesses that have ravaged wild populations of the same species, according to the study, which is being published online today in the science journal PLoS One. Feral bee losses also harm commercial hives, which are built partly by collecting from the wild. Bumblebees are the second-biggest pollinating insect in the U.S. after honeybees, which are threatened by Colony Collapse Disorder, a separate ailment marked by the sudden, massive disappearance of bees that occurred in at least 35 states and three continents last year. The study's findings point to a need for commercial beehives of all species to be managed more effectively, said co-author Michael Otterstatter of the University of Toronto. ``Improved management of domestic bees is seemingly exactly what is needed -- greater attention to the types of parasites they have,'' said Otterstatter, who conducted his research with University of Toronto colleague James Thomson. Potentially `Devastating' ``Pathogen spillover, whether it's in bumblebees or in something like Colony Collapse Disorder, has the potential to be just devastating for the wild bee communities.'' In the study, the researchers examined bees at four Ontario sites near commercial greenhouses to see whether a parasite common in managed bumblebees was unusually prevalent in the wild population. The parasite robs bees of their ability to distinguish between flowers that contain nectar and those that don't, Otterstatter said. For commercial bees fed by their owners, that skill isn't important. For wild bees, its absence is deadly. ``Infected bees make an incredible number of mistakes,'' Otterstatter said. ``They visit empty flowers again and again'' as they slowly starve to death, he said. The study found that up to half the wild bees near greenhouses were infected with the pathogen, while no bees were infected far from greenhouses. The research model predicts that, over time, diseases transmitted from commercial bees will lead to widespread epidemics among wild bees. Pollination The finding is important because wild bees play a major role in pollinating crops ranging from apples to zucchini, Otterstatter said. And because it's nearly impossible to keep commercial bees of any species from mingling with feral cousins because of how they're used -- greenhouses have vents, and honeybees are released in open fields -- proper care and feeding of commercial beehives is essential, he said. Otterstatter said he hopes his study on bumblebees will spur similar inquiries on the disease relationship between wild and commercial honeybees. Scientists have gained little understanding about why more than a third of U.S. honeybees died during the past two winters, a phenomenon that may affect crop pollination next year, experts told a congressional committee last month. U.S. Research The University of Georgia received $4.1 million July 17 from the U.S. Department of Agriculture to search for the cause of Colony Collapse Disorder and find ways to improve bee health. ``Bees are an extremely valuable contributor to the overall productivity of American agriculture, but invasive pests, diseases and environmental stresses are putting U.S. bees at serious risk,'' Agriculture Secretary Ed Schafer said in a statement announcing the grant. The University of Toronto bumblebee study was funded by the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada and Ontario Graduate Scholarships. Nationally, the commercial honeybee population dropped more than 36 percent this year, according to a survey by the Apiary Inspectors of America. Commercial bees, which do most of the pollinating for a third of U.S. crops, have declined during the past two decades to about 2.3 million honey-producing colonies from about 3.5 million. Commercial bees add $15 billion annually in value to U.S. crops, according to the Agriculture Department. Pesticides, mites and viruses are the leading suspects behind colony collapse. Wild bees have a tougher time surviving than commercial bees, which are closely monitored, Pennsylvania State University beekeeper Maryann Frazier said last month. To contact the reporter on this story: Alan Bjerga in Washington at abjerga@bloomberg.net. Last Updated: July 23, 2008 11:56 EDT **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:11:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A friend gave me a magazine article which stated that the cause of CCD was Neonicotinoids. I would like to say I took a scientific approach and read more than the title, but I gave it back to them and said it was not. The debate is getting a bit tiresome since it is more heat than reason and just about zero science. The finger pointing started with Dave Hackenburg and has been propagated by his friends. There has been absolutely no indication of any Neonicotinoids found in his hives. He was told that year that he had high Varroa loads and would lose his bees. He did. A additional pesticide link with CCD came from one Penn State researcher involved with the Hackenburg bees and it was a toss off comment with absolutely zero science. From there we have the German incident, and now it is a given that CCD and Neonicotinoids are interlinked. Zero science, lots of emotion. Anyone reading this list will see that any discussion of pesticides yields lots of emotional response but little science. Pesticides bad, end of issue. Let us look at Neonicotinoids. The most interesting thing about bee kills from Neonicotinoids is that the symptoms are not like CCD but are, in fact, easily seen, measured, and fairly distinct. Medhat did some excellent trials of, if I recall, Gaucho and bumblebees in greenhouses. His observations were distinct and had little correlation with what Jerry has seem with CCD. Even the French beekeepers saw their bees and saw they were disoriented, something not seen with CCD. The German kill was measured, distinct and an obvious pesticide kill, not like CCD. Neonicotinoids are not found in colonies that have/had CCD, but lots of beekeeper supplied pesticides are. So we have all this science which states unequivocally that they are not linked, but some say they are. What evidence is suppled? Colonies are near corn fields. If bees are so affected, then so will all the other insects near the field, an easy test to perform. Bees are transient, but the other insects are there year around. The problem is, there seems to be no die-off of insects around corn fields that would indict Neonicotinoids. If there were, the anti-pesticide groups would have been all over it in an instant. There is just no science from the anti-Neonicotinoids front. It is emotion and supposition, but, thanks to them, CCD is solved. Jerry can pack his bags and all those organic beekeeper who lost their bees to CCD should stop driving by corn fields. Bill Truesdell (Full disclosure- I do take a daily aspirin, not Bayer but Walmart generic, but then again, Walmart, Bayer... hmmmm both have a as a second letter so there is an obvious link.) Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:46:06 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: surprise wild bumblebees affected by managed bumblebees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The paper http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0002771 the pathogen: *Crithidia bombi* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crithidia -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:45:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Neonicotinoids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, The August ABJ came today. interesting comments made by Jerry Hayes in reference to a neonicotinoids question from a reader in his monthly "The Classroom". I have to say Jerry and I have been friends for many years and I have the upmost respect for his opinion. I have sought his opinion many times! I completely agree with his response to the readers questions about the neonicotinoids! Jerry Hayes from pg.706 of the August ABJ. "I would agree with you that pesticides might be part of the puzzle. Neonicotinoids are everywhere. Check out dog & cat flea collars, ant and termite control, household bug spray and,of course ,lawn and garden sprays, along with agriculture. Are we impacting our environment including us and our children? Sure we are. Have you seen the movie "I Am Legend" a remake of the "Omega Man"? That is exactly where we are heading and you may quote me. Bob: I have seen the movie and also the original. I thought back in 1968 when the "Omega Man" came out that people having to drink bottled water and vast pollution plus massive food shortages was a bit much but it seems its coming to be reality. Jerry Hayes: ( Classroom Aug. ABJ) "An independent study will be done to investigate the neonicotinoids when a new class of chemicals is designed to replace the neonicotinoids and there is no more money to be made from them. Until then , enjoy being a guinea pig." It is my opinion also that we are all *plus our precious environment* guinea pigs as far as the new class of systemic pesticides are concerned. The FDA did no testing but simply rubber stamped the chemical company research. All those which support the neonicotinoids base their opinion on the chemical company research as there is no other research that has been done as Jerry Hayes has pointed out! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:05:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: surprise wild bumblebees affected by managed bumblebees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredericksen quoted: > Commercial bees, which do most of the pollinating for a third of U.S. crops, have declined during the past two decades to about 2.3 million honey-producing colonies from about 3.5 million. We have fallen farther than that: > Back in beekeeping’s heyday — around the end of World War II when Uncle Sam was teaching GIs to keep bees — there were nearly 5 million honeybee colonies. But by the 1950s, the numbers began to plummet. Today, it’s estimated that there are from 2 to 2.5 million colonies in the United States. -- "Adventures in Beekeeping", Plenty Magazine, 2006-02-01 That was 2006; might be less by now. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 22:20:51 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Neonicotinoids >>NOT<< Banned in Germany!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After all the hue and cry, here's a surprise - No pesticides at all were banned in Germany. There was only a temporary suspension of the use of certain pesticides on treated seeds in specific types of pneumatic seed drills. We have all been misled by a press that should fact-check more, and use more precise language. We have been further misled by people with agendas that don't really have any interest in the facts when the facts don't match their agenda. Here's one reporter who got his facts straight: http://www.cnbc.com/id/25367916 "Germany..... lifted a temporary ban on some of Bayer AG.'s insecticides for the treatment of canola seeds... Bayer's corn seed treatment Poncho, together with three other corn treatments, remain suspended until better seed treatment and sowing methods have been developed..." I was pointed to the MSNBC story by a chemist who can actually pronounce the names of all these pesticides. Here is a list of what was temporarily subjected to the initial suspension: Antarc, (imidacloprid [neonic] + beta-cyfluthrin [pyrethroid]) Chinook, (same as above) Cruiser (thiamethoxam [neonic]) Elado, (clothianidin [neonic] + beta-cyfluthrin [pyrethroid]) Faibel, (imidacloprid [neonic] + something else) Mesurol (methiocarb [carbamate]) Poncho, (clothianidin [neonic]) So more than just neonicotinoids were subjected to the temporary suspension. What was the common factor between all these different pesticides? The "seed treatment and sowing methods" mentioned in the article. Why were some of the pesticides taken off the suspension list? The article explains clearly: "...on the canola products was now lifted because the ventilation used in corn sowing machines, which aggravated the spread of the insecticide, is not used in canola sowing." Further, we have the original suspension order from Germany's BVL, which when combined with the MSNBC report, gives a much more clear impression of the intent of the temporary suspensions: http://tinyurl.com/6ktc9u Now, this is a Google translation, and the English is far less than a perfect. I'll paste a better one for the key paragraph. Where the Google Translation says "This examination revealed that the distribution...", a better translation would be: "The enquiry showed that the use of pneumatic sowing machines of a particular construction type for the sowing of seeds treated with insecticides led to a higher degree of bee exposure than was hitherto assumed in the registration process." So, Germany suspended only the planting of these seed treatments with specific pneumatic drills. The pesticides were still "approved for use" by farmers who use non-pneumatic planting equipment. But don't expect anyone to pay any attention to the facts, and don't expect to see it all explained clearly anywhere else but here. I'm sure it will become another myth that will be difficult to put a stake into the heart of, just like the nonsense about self-described "organic beekeepers" not having problems with CCD. Any people wonder why I can get a little testy about minor details like "the facts" sometimes... sheesh. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:39:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Bee Thrive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi All, It has come to my attention that a product called Bee Thrive is using my name, and that of Dr. Eric Mussen, in their promotional materials. I have sent them a cease and desist order. I was contacted by them to find out how to set up a controlled trial, and have proposed a suggested trial. I have never used the product. I have nothing to say about their product pro or con, as I know nothing about it, other than that it uses humic and fulvic acids, and has been used in livestock feeding. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 04:26:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Stings Lead to Arthritis Relief Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Stings Lead to Arthritis Relief By Joe Graedon and Teresa Graedon, The Hartford Courant (USA), 7/25/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/07/stings-lead-to-arthritis-relief.html Q.I was stung on my left leg five times by yellow jackets. I have osteoarthritis in my left knee, and the pain has been gone since I was stung. I'm hoping that it will last! If I had a choice, though, I would definitely pick honeybee stings over yellow jackets, as they're much less painful. A. You're not the first person to share such a story with us… **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:25:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Bee Thrive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bee Thrive contains humic substances. The company also makes several other products containing these ingredients including a hangover remedy. This is actual material from their web site: * Developed to address the causes of a hangover rather then the masking the symptoms. * Relieves queasiness due to excess drinking. (Must be taken at first sign of queasiness.) * Helps elliminate the toxins accumulated from alcohol consumption. Dear Polycil, I was recently given your product to take with me on a trip to New York for the holidays. I had almost forgotten about it but remembered to take it with me for New Year's Eve. Boy am I glad I did! I usually don't mix drinks but you know how it can get on New Year's. Champagne, mixed drinks and even some beer! Well, I can tell you that for the first time in my life I did not get a hangover! My friends were all jealous of me since they were feeling miserable. I got to watch the parade and enjoy a wonderful New Year's day dinner thanks to your product. You've got a real winner! Sincerely, Mark D. Hermosa Beach, CA These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any desease. Fraternity and Sorority Tested http://polycilhealth.com/antihangover.shtml **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:31:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: swarm takes over existing hive Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Greetings to all: long story short I brought back a swarm from another city that had built comb on a three inch branch. that unit was the size of a large beach ball complete with honey and lots of brood. The queen was caged -just lucky to get her When we got back all was sorted out and the queen released yesterday late morning Went to take honey off three hours later from other hives and saw mega bees arriving at the outer hive where a Russian breeder queen was Went back to the out of town hive and it was empty sure enough all these buckfast/Italian critters were invading the Russian hive I looked down in the grass and saw a light coloured queen, it was the one from the swarm I proceded to rip apart the hive and found it was on the verge of also swarming I shook some of the bees into the grass and a cluster of bees formed , under that was a black Russian queen I bagged her and sheared off all the swarm cells only to find one with the queen emerging so I had wire tubes handy with wine corks for the ends and that one came out of the cell and walked right into the tube. Got the whole works put together with the brood and frames from the abandonded hive on top of this one. Then I saw another cluster about a hand full of bees on the outside of the put together hive and pocked at it. Bagged another queen from that one. So why did the swarm take over this other hive? was it because it was also about to swarm and confuse and excited /in disarray? no fighting what so ever had taken place will be giving things a chance and then I'll be looking for that marked breeder queen. I'm banking all the queens except one in the top box cause it came handy for a queenless nuc that was nearby Walter Ontario ________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a good movie? Check out our 2008 Summer Movie Guide. http://entertainment.aol.ca/summer-movies/?icid=AOLENT00310000000005 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:43:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Southern Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids >>NOT<< Banned in Germany!! In-Reply-To: <000d01c8edfd$0fe258a0$0201000a@j> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 7/24/08 10:20 PM, James Fischer at bee-quick@bee-quick.com wrote: > After all the hue and cry, here's a surprise - > > No pesticides at all were banned in Germany. But this is not news. I was aware that this was not a permanent ban although I can't honestly say where I read that. I do think it's naive to think that companies like Bayer would not lobby against such a ban anyway. That's not "anti-big Pharma", that's just the reality of powerful corporations. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:08:52 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: surprise wild bumblebees affected by managed bumblebees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's not a "surprise" at all. A year ago, I pointed out how the claims of the alternative pollinator crowd about the utility of bumblebees and other so-called "alternative pollinators" or "native pollinators" had directly led to the extinction of at least two bumblebee species in the US: http://tinyurl.com/67nrdu http://tinyurl.com/68kx9v In brief, none of this would have happened if not for the insistence that native bumblebees were better-suited for US greenhouse pollination than imported species. Native species were exported, bred in Europe, where they picked up a nasty European strain of Nosema, and then imported into the US with the same lack of port-of-entry sampling and inspections that imported honey bees currently suffer. There is no doubt that these bumblebees are extinct due solely to the efforts of the "native pollinator" lobby, who so skillfully grabbed the overwhelming majority of the CCD-justified funding as a whole, and a significant slice of the research pie, all while damning honey bees with faint praise. Extinct is forever. When will they kill again? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:11:00 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Bee Thrive In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >From Policil ... "These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any desease. Fraternity and Sorority Tested" Peter My english doesn't seem to be good enough to understand this "Fraternity and Sorority Tested" Any idea on what should it means? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:11:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Bee Thrive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Polycil, the makers of BeeThrive posted at this LA Times article at http://polycilhealth.com/latimes.shtml As fears of flu thrive, so do pills and promises Los Angeles Times - Los Angeles, Calif. So irritated has the Food and Drug Administration grown that it decided to clamp down on some of the flu claims. Last month, the agency warned PRB Pharmaceuticals, Vitacost, Bodestore and six other companies to stop making claims about avian flu and other forms of influenza or face possible seizure of their products. Shortly before the FDA move, four leading trade associations for herbal and nutritional products also issued an alert about bogus flu product claims. "Consumers should be cautious. There are some unscrupulous players out there," said Steven Mister, president of the Council for Responsible Nutrition, which represents supplement manufacturers. "We are not aware of any products that can treat or cure avian flu." Some of the companies warned by the FDA have removed the flu claims from their sites. But some consumers are convinced that daily supplements, which can cost $1 to $2 per capsule, can prevent or treat the flu. Shortages of prescription antiviral medications for the flu may have added to the supplements' appeal. A little more than a year ago, Danee Shaheen of West Los Angeles had been fighting an uphill battle against what she said was a lingering flu. For days she had felt feverish, weak and congested. Then an acquaintance suggested Immunocil, a nutritional supplement at one time promoted as a way to treat or prevent seasonal or bird flu. Immunocil, produced by Westlake Village-based Polycil Health Inc., has been offered as an alternative to vaccination, the preventive treatment with well-established scientific credentials. Shaheen was so satisfied with Immunocil that she skipped her flu shot this season and said she believes the supplement will help if a bird flu pandemic strikes. Polycil was one of the companies warned by the FDA to stop making such claims. "Consumers should be cautious. There are some unscrupulous players out there," said Steven Mister, president of the Council for Responsible Nutrition, which represents supplement manufacturers. "We are not aware of any products that can treat or cure avian flu." Many infectious disease experts scoff at the idea of supplements as flu-fighting wonders. Dr. William Schaffner, chairman of preventive medicine at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, said boasts about products that cure or prevent any kind of flu are unproven at best. At worst, he said, they can be dangerous. "There are no standards for any of these products," Schaffner said. "There have been times when such products have been contaminated with material that has made them toxic, such as lead. I'm afraid it's caveat emptor, buyer beware." Some of the active ingredients of such products have shown medicinal effects. Humic acid in Immunocil demonstrates antiviral properties in lab tests, and lysine, an amino acid used in Flufront, can help prevent or heal cold sores. But scientific evidence on whether such products boost immune response, or relieve or prevent any type of flu, are "nonexistent, spare or conflicting," Schaffner said. "All of us would like to believe that there is a nostrum, a miracle ingredient that would either prevent everything or cure everything," he said. "In God we trust. All others must provide data." SEE: As fears of flu thrive, so do pills and promises Los Angeles Times - Los Angeles, Calif. Subjects: False advertising, Avian flu, Fear & phobias, Dietary supplements Author: Charles Piller Date: Jan 2, 2006 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:59:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: So-called feral bees- A little turn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin wrote: Is it the case that your bees have relatively few drone brood in spring and many in summer? A colony holding Varroa numbers stable would have a high proportion of drone brood infested when there are few, and a low proportion when there are many simply because there is an overabundance of brood for them then... thanks Gavin, the thought had crossed my mind, but I will dig into to it a little more and see if i can see any patterns developing with drone (varroa) load being a function of drone/worker brood ratio...or even a springtime exodus of the varroa to the drone cells from the workers.. John. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:54:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: <4888E1EC.5020503@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bill & All, There is not clear picture of what CCD is or caused by. However many of us believe that systemic pesticides are causing problems. Sub lethal except with assail & in Germany blown from seeds. Certainly with the Bayer product Temik. > The debate is getting a bit tiresome since it is more heat than reason > and just about zero science. It is for me also. I tire of presenting the majority of beeks around the world position to a FEW! .There has been > absolutely no indication of any Neonicotinoids found in his hives. We are talking sun lethal effects Bill. NOT LD50. ALL Bayer research is based on LD 50. Every time a post comes on saying the neonicotinoids are safe around bees I am going to post like above! You can believe what you like and I so far count maybe five members which think the neonicotinoids are not causing problems around the world while many many beeks in other countries are protesting in the streets. They are all wrong and the five of you are right? Until you post research saying the sub lethal effects of the neonicotinoids are not causing problems then expect a response from me. The burden of proof that the neonicotinoids are not causing sub lethal problems with bees is on you . Not me! Show me some sub lethal research? > From there we have the German incident, and now it is a given that CCD and > Neonicotinoids are interlinked. The German incident is pretty cut and dried. However the neonicotinoids have not been totally ruled out as a cause of *some* of the reported survey losses claimed as CCD. Without a doubt some of the reported CCD losses were directly related to the new nosema ceranae. The rest of the losses are unexplained. Jerry Hayes is a member of the CCD working group. > little science. Pesticides bad, end of issue. I say sub lethal effects of the neonicotinoids are causing problems . Prove me wrong Bill! Please do not point to chemical company paid for research! Their research is all about LD 50. They did no sub lethal research nor does Bayer labs own a single bee hive! I believe that in a few years I will pull some of these posts and we will see which side was right. Even the French beekeepers saw > their bees and saw they were disoriented, something not seen with CCD. disoriented and not able to find their way back to the hive is not a possible cause of CCD? Bayer loves the word CCD. CCD is a BIG unknown Bill. Bayer first fought French beeks by blaming varroa! At the time the French beeks had a excellent varroa control to use. Sorry Bayer. > So we have all this science which states unequivocally that they are not > linked, but some say they are. On sub lethal effects? We have none Bill! Please understand why beeks are upset. At least some sub lethal testing is soon to be done! Finally! Your side( the neonicotinoids cause no sub lethal effects to bees) has the weak position in the debate. The problem is, there seems to be no die-off of > insects around corn fields that would indict Neonicotinoids. Don't you read my posts! The three largest beeks in my area starting losing hives around corn that is teaseling! I have had emails from all over reporting the same! farmers using imidacloprid treated seed up to 8 years on the same ground! Planning to do again next year. Wake up people! > There is just no science from the anti-Neonicotinoids front. Where is the testing on sub lethal effects of imidacloprid on insects? How could registration have been given without such testing? Bob standing by to refute all claims that beeks around the world are all wrong about the neonicotinoids. Is the new research on sub lethal effects shows bees are not effected than I will back off. Until then I will not. The majority of beeks see the neonicotinoids as problems for bees. Highly toxic and found in all plant parts. A handful of beeks on BEE-L think they have no sub lethal effects but provide no proof to back up their hypothesis. I can't show the worlds beeks position much better than the above. Show us some research showing that the neonicotinods do not cause sub lethal effects (such as reported in France and Italy) and I will be quiet. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:00:27 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Proving a negative MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A statement was made "Show us some research showing that the neonicotinods do not cause sub lethal effects (such as reported in France and Italy) and I will be quiet." Am I remembering wrong? Does not the above statement ask for proof of a negative? Can't do it. I live in an area populated by lots of medium size to very large (by East Coast standards) migratory beekeepers. Those that take their bees south for spring build up and then move them into one or two pollination crops before settling for the summer honey production do not seem to be suffering CCD-like symptoms, nor do those that keep their bees home for the winter. Those that try to fill 6-10 pollination crops (with the same hives), then summer honey production, complain of CCD-like symptoms. All are subject to their bees being near crops treated with neonic's. Is it not possible that the neonics are adding an amount of stress that is the 'straw that breaks the backs', and the immune system collaspes? Let's give the bees a break. The old timers said 'treat the bees right, and they will treat you right'. I think some beekeeps are chasing the bucks so much they are not treating their bees right. I guess we will all wait and see and I count myself as one of the 'five' that does not believe the neonics are the problem. I lean toward 'too much stress', with possibly the neonics adding to that stress. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:30:22 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: surprise wild bumblebees affected by managed bumblebees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Whoa there Jim! > There is no doubt that these bumblebees are > extinct due solely to the efforts of the > "native pollinator" lobby, who so skillfully > grabbed .... Can I express some doubt?! That argument seems a little contrived. Here are some possible culprits: - anyone who ever converted the wild lands where these bees flew into farmland - anyone who built on those lands - anyone who contributed to a subtle change in climate - anyone spraying (oops, sorry!) pesticides on land near where those remnant populations struggled to get by and .... - the people who delivered the final coup de grace by permitting, encouraging, organising and delivering pathogen-infested imported commercial bumble bees Like CCD in honeybees, the loss of these species (something that I greatly regret) is likely to be multi-factorial and complex. It is also likely to be something we should all learn from, and even gives reason to build bridges and collaborate with people interested in conserving Apidae. best wishes Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:30:46 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: So-called feral bees- A little turn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi John and All John Horton wrote: > ...or even a springtime exodus of the varroa to the drone cells > from the workers.. Yes, another possibility. Other ways of explaining an apparent decline in infested drone brood as the season progresses could be a switching on of hygienic behaviour through the season, or even a particular bee forage plant affecting Varroa during its season. Nest dynamics would be the first to check for though. I have a question for all you bee brains out there. - how quickly do bees clean out vacated worker brood? - what if the cell was opened by VSH* bees prior to the pupa maturing and on a frame without emerging bees - would that cell be left uncleaned for longer, lacking nearby chambermaids? - can you easily spot the rooms with the 'Please make up the room' tags on the door handles, perhaps due to the unsmoothed rim around the entrance, from the rooms already serviced by chambermaids?! OK, that's three questions. I know, I know - I can't count. Why? Well, this weekend I'm making a second visit to a beekeeper with a lot of knowledge of (and also some stocks of) long-surviving untreated feral colonies from old buildings and trees in central Scotland. Last time I visited we saw some colonies that appeared to be cleaning out cells containing pupae, and had dropped pupal parts (eg antennae) on the floor board along with damaged mites. So now we're going to start assessing his colonies for putative VSH-behaviour. Number one on our list of things to try is counting freshly opened cells in slabs of sealed brood, and to try to determine the proportion of these cells that have white Varroa faeces in the bottom. Anyone else tried anything like this? Any better ideas for determining VSH levels in a relatively non-invasive way? That's five questions now. No! Six. I'm off to the pub now, and expect to see some answers when I return! all the best Gavin *VSH - Varroa Sensitive Hygiene, but you knew that, didn't you?! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:46:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Where is the testing on sub lethal effects of > imidacloprid on insects? Where is the testing on sub lethal effects of the shop rag treatments beekeepers use? Sublethal effects of migratory beekeeping practices? Sublethal effects of diesel truck smoke? Sublethal effects of malnutrition? Clearly a can of worms. Sublethal effects research may be counterproductive because it distracts researchers from spending their time and money on finding the pathogen that is most likely the root cause of CCD. Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:38:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Simms Subject: Proving a negative MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The problem with suggesting that neonics are=A0the underlying cause of CCD,= =A0having sublethal effects and combining with other stresses/phenomena to = create CCD symptoms has been disproved by every kind of survey data to date= .=A0 The=A0data=A0shows no relationship between the types of crops, kind of= beekeeper, region or other environmental=A0correlation to CCD.=A0 CCD is n= ot due to an environmental condition in combination with exposure to neonic= otinoids.=0ACCD is clearly caused by=A0a disease organism.=A0 As such, any = stresses whatsoever can act in concert with a disease to give it the upper = hand over the bees immune system, assuming they would have any helpful=A0im= mune response at all to this particular disease organism.=A0 Environmental = factors, including beekeeping practices, miticides, pesticides,=A0etc. are = equally but not-surprisingly an agravating factor in any disease epidemic.= =A0 Thus, assaulting any particular environmental factor (global warming, n= eonicatinoids, migratory practices, nutrition, flooding, draught, cold wint= ers, hot summers,=A0full moon, blue moon, etc.) without addressing the infe= ctious disease is pointless.=0A=0AEric in Howe, TX=0A=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 22:11:13 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: CCD and Rumsfeld MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2008/07/22/news/local/news05.txt Debnam and others spent 10 months preparing to go overseas to start locating the hidden land mines that threaten literally millions of people worldwide. A week before their scheduled departure, Rumsfeld called to say the mission was off. On Monday, Debnam also announced that exhaustive research has led to the conclusion that a fungus called Nosema Ceranae, combined with a pair of viruses, could well be the cause of Colony Collapse Disorder, which results in sick bees leaving their hives and not returning. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 22:14:11 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Local honey producer expands beyond farmers' markets Comments: cc: honey_australia@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.news8austin.com/content/your_news/default.asp?ArID=214955 There are certain things that generate plenty of buzz: trends, gossip, caffeine, bees and now you can add grocery store to that list. That's because Round Rock Honey's explosive growth has seen a 100 percent increase in sales every year for the last six years. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:24:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Proving a negative Comments: To: lloyd@rossrounds.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >A statement was made "Show us some research showing that the > neonicotinods do not cause sub lethal > effects (such as reported in France and Italy) and I will be quiet." Proving a negative? In Italy the research testing sub lethal effects was straight forward. Each level of expose caused certain problems in the bees. Sub lethal testing is not rocket science. Lloyd, I know far more about the issue than I put on BEE-L. My article in ABJ brought letters from beeks all over the world plus the U.S.. My email address in the magazine was not correct so I even had many phone. Dadant forwarded me emails! I have had crackpots contact me and chemical companies trying to act like beekeepers. Never a response from the other articles like the article on the neonicotinoids. Like David Hackenberg and CCD I have been pushed to the front of the fight of beeks against the neonicotinoids. The leadership of both organizations are convinced after looking into the neonicotinoids that they are causing problems through sub lethal effects. Hence the first program to get funding was the grant for testing the sub lethal effects of imidacloprid on honey bees ( paid for by Hagen das grant and I believe Mary Ann is doing the research). research in Italy showed serious sub lethal effects from imidacloprid on bees. The bees could not find their way back to the hive. Hello! I approached Bayer about funding sub lethal testing of imidacloprid on bees but the company declined. The national organizations tried! forty grand to Penn State to settle the issue seemed like chump change but the company declined. Beeks in France and Germany asked their Bayer reps to pop for the study. Declined. So now the study is coming. A company rep said off the record that they would denounce findings that sub lethal effects hurt bees on the grounds the study was funded by beekeepers and the researchers were biased. Why do you think Bill, LLoyd, Peter, Jim and the other beek the company does not want to see such a study? Wake up people. We have been down this road with tobacco and hundreds of products. All the beekeepers in the U.S. are asking for is some label changes. Bayer will not even sit down with us and talk. Printed company positions have been sent to both groups. In Europe they realize talking will not solve the issue so they are pushing for bans. I respect everyone's opinion but you need to keep an open mind. Do not confuse neonicotinoid issues with CCD . Off label use of temik ( Bayer) is killing many many hives in Orange in Florida. The situation is very serious to those beeks. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:55:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Stings Lead to Arthritis Relief In-Reply-To: <20080725042614.84d281a5f2f7df0ef38485a84124037d.7d2474dc0a.wbe@email.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If I had a choice, though, I would > definitely pick honeybee stings over yellow jackets, as they're much > less painful. I was picking elderberries and was bothered by some mosquitoes, pecking away at my legs in some brush. I decided to keep picking since they were not much of a bother, until I parted the brush and looked down. They were yellow jackets. I stirred up a ground nest. To me, bee stings are a bit more than a yellow jacket, but it might have been that I am just use to being stung. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:49:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: <21C49533AB04466AADE95D228BFC7FA6@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Hello Bill & All, > > There is not clear picture of what CCD is or caused by. I disagree, since it seems to becoming clear that it is a pathogen of some sort. My problem is with those who insist, as the article whose headline said, that it has been solved and its name is Bayer. I have no issue with the fact that pesticides can cause bee and human problems. As noted, I practice organic farming and do not use pesticides for that reason. I have, however, a very big problem with emotional responses against chemicals where there is no science. You asked me to prove, through studies, that minute traces of a pesticide do not kill or cause CCD. All we need to do is look at organic beekeepers who suffer CCD. But, even better, any beekeeper who has suffered pesticide kills knows that there are degrees to the kill. It is not black and white but you can have total or minor impact on a colony or apiary. In fact, often there are colonies that are not effected at all, since the bees did not go to that field while others are dieing out. Or a colony is partially affected since the dose was sub lethal. Lethal doses kill in the field, while sub lethal kill in the hive. There is just no correlation with a pesticide kill and CCD. CCD sweeps through an apiary, from one group of colonies to another until the whole apiary is in collapse. That is a classic pathogen response. You do not see a "little bit of CCD" which you would see with a sub lethal dose of pesticide. I was going to write a short essay on the scientific method and single data points, but decided that it was not worth the bother. But what we have here is an accusation that treated corn fields cause CCD, a single data point. This is not unlike the same accusations that come out about transmission lines and cancer, or being downwind of a nuclear plant and cancer. Very often you can show that there are increased incidences of specific cancer in some of those areas. But, when one looks more deeply, it turns out it is not universally true, but specific to one or more locations. When you look at those locations, often you find many relatives who live there and it is actually genetics that is the underlying cause of the cancer. Could it be that large beekeeping operations in the Mid-West farmlands are located near corn just because there is a lot of corn in the Mid-West farmlands? We know that large operations are more susceptible to CCD, so might it be the concentration of large beekeeping operations in the same farmlands with attendant mixing of pathogens that is the real cause of CCD with those operations? That seemed to be a characteristic of CCD with almond pollinators: all together to share a pathogen, get CCD, and carry it home, even those who never got near corn. In essence, the data point that is being used to show that corn and CCD are related is not a very good one, based on all the other variables at work. Truth is, if there were a pesticide smoking gun, that would have been obvious from the beginning. If you recall, it was hypothesized by the Penn State person who was working on the Hackenburg colonies, but dropped soon after. It would be too easy to identify any chemical agent as the underlying cause of CCD. A pathogen is a different story, especially a new one. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 00:17:20 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Proving a negative Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...even sub-lethal effects require the presence (or exposure) to the substance in question. my recollection from the penn state data is that they only found neonics in very specific orange grove situations. in these days of ppb detection, one would first have to either find the presence of these substances in the hive, or in the disappearing bees. these two approaches seem more productive than trying to "prove a negative". deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:44:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: <488A4A70.3030903@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I disagree, since it seems to becoming clear that it is a pathogen of some > sort. Then why does not the CCD team say so? My problem is with those who insist, as the article whose > headline said, that it has been solved and its name is Bayer. I have a problem with those articles also. CCD is a myth at present. Mostly smoke with little actual fire! Maybe just a common bee die off like Joe Waggle posted. As good a hypothesis as is around. Nosema ceranae is real and is wreaking havoc the systemic and other pesticides are causing problems. I have, however, a very big problem with > emotional responses against chemicals where there is no science. The worlds beeks are mainly upset with three of the neonicotinoids and temik. There is research showing bee kills related to all these. The grower using these products worries about his interests. I worry about bee kills. Lines are drawn in the sand. > All we need to do is look at organic beekeepers who suffer CCD. Many different things can cause the symptoms described as CCD. If you go back and look at the work of Wilson and Rothenbuler on "disappearing disease" the final answer which both came up was the problem was genetic in origin. GENETIC pathogens and pesticides were blamed back then along with taken up by aliens The CCD team to my knowledge has not looked very deeply into a genetic problem causing the die off ( I like the word die off better than CCD mainly because all CCD (the word) represents is a certain set of symptoms WITH four (at least!) possible causes .) I will say that none of the beeks which keep Australian queen headed hives in the U.S. have said they have had any CCD problems. They have had some nosema ceranae issues. The largest runs 13,000 and another has 6500. Both use Australian/Australian breeder queens. I do not know of any of the beeks which keep Russian/Russian bees with CCD type problems. Bees leaving the hives etc. I have seen absolutely no CCD type symptoms in my Russian/Russian or Australian/Australian hives. I have in hives headed by queens from U.S. queen producers. I have many contacts and I have not had a single beek running Australian/Australia or Russian' Russian queens having problems. Could it be the genetics are better? Could it be our U.S. lines which have been mixed since the border was closed in the 20's has a problem? I don't know but I sure have noticed those bees do not seem to be having their bees leave the hive. The final word from the USDA_ARS on "disappearing disease" was that it was not caused by a pathogen but was a genetic problem. Which would explain why organic and large migratory beeks are seeing problems. Jerry B. uses the explanation that an organic beek had hives die after he went into alfalfa pollination with a migratory beek. I expect the loss was from nosema ceranae rather than some unknown pathogen. The CCD team has NOT found a new pathogen and they have searched! Nothing new folks! CCD sweeps > through an apiary, from one group of colonies to another until the whole > apiary is in collapse. Not really. However nosema ceranae does! Nosema ceranae is a big problem for many including myself. Thanks to Eric Mussen , Shad & Jerry Sullivan & randy Oliver and their advice I nipped my nosema ceranae issues in the bid with only a loss of production but not hives. I was ready to depopulate and use acetic acid till I spoke with the above friends. > do not see a "little bit of CCD" which you would see with a sub lethal > dose of pesticide. The number one symptom of CCD 1. older field bees are missing from the hive. Classic case of bees dying in the field or disorientated and can not find the way home. The best book on the subject and the book I refer to the most : Pollinator Protection A bee & Pesticide handbook by Johansen & Mayer. The book describes 1. above with many pesticide kills. In the case of Penn cap M you never find the bees! > > I was going to write a short essay on the scientific method and single > data points, but decided that it was not worth the bother. I wonder why I bother with BEE-L. Really has little to do with the fight we commercial beeks are in to survive. Allen Dick walked away. I should quit beekeeping and go into an easier way to make a living like extreme martial arts. the data point that is being used to show that corn and > CCD are related is not a very good one, based on all the other variables > at work. CCD type symptoms starting at the exact time the corn has pollen does not turn on a light bulb? > Truth is, if there were a pesticide smoking gun, that would have been > obvious from the beginning. If only we could find the missing bees to test. A preacher told me the missing bees were the "bee rapture" and he was going next. As good a hypothesis as the rest. >A pathogen is a different story, especially a new one. The bottom line on a new pathogen. None has been found and plenty of people have looked! Using the best equipment available! No cigar! No new pathogen! No smoking pathogen gun! Although the USDA-ARS does not agree . Spain researchers which have been researching nosema ceranae for six years say nosema ceranae is the cause of CCD. Period! Randy Oliver is closer to Spain researchers than I am and maybe he will comment or maybe he won't but he knows Spain researchers believe the current die off is mostly caused by U.S. beeks not knowing a killer was in our hives until hives started crashing. Control by feeding fumidil alone did not work in advance cases and nosema ceranae kills in summer /late fall and makes it hard to winter bees. When you remove most known bee problems from the CCD deadouts do we really have a serious problem? Don't ask me but one has to wonder. Bottom line. We can always agree to disagree! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:28:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: CCD and Rumsfeld- NOT !!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All Scott works for me, gave a talk to a local service club while I was in D.C. This story is highly inaccurate. Rumsfeld DID NOT halt our landmine work, doubt he even knew who we were. The State Dept has imposed some restrictions on export of the technology, that we are working through. We do have the IVDS virus screening instrument up and running, and we have found 20 viruses in U.S. bees. Whether any interact with Nosema remains to be seen. I suspect this may be the case, but its too early to tell from the data. In the meantime, I'd like to get samples from other countries, see which of these 20 viruses occur elsewhere. Once again, a reporter takes bits and pieces out of context, and an editor adds an inflammatory headline. Please disregard this article. Jerry **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:25:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:49:36 -0400, Bill Truesdell wrote: > >All we need to do is look at organic beekeepers who suffer CCD. > we have no published proof of that either - if we do please provide the link or literature reference. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:36:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: Proving a negative Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob While I don't agree with your position on Bayer, I admire what you are doing. Push for the data - the requests you describe of Bayer is not unreasonable. This issue does warrant further independent research into sublethal effects and I can think of a bee researcher of two who feel that more data is needed. Brian **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 00:02:36 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>All we need to do is look at organic beekeepers who suffer CCD. >> we have no published proof of that either - if we >> do please provide the link or literature reference. Sure we do, happy to provide the citation: "Science", May 18 2007 Vol. 316. no. 5827, pp. 970 - 972 "The Case of the Empty Hives" Which includes the quote: "Pesticides can't be an explanation for why organic beekeepers are losing their colonies." (quoting Dr. May Berenbaum) Now I dunno about you, but when something's published in either "Nature" or "Science", it gets read by lots of people who are very skeptical, and well-paid to be skeptical. So, when speaking with "Science" and "Nature", one picks one's words with care. Now, it is true that you won't see a list of names. This is because confidentiality is promised to everyone who participates in "surveys" and "studies", and those promises are kept. But Jerry B. has confirmed the accuracy of the quote I quoted several times here on Bee-L, so there's no reason to continue to deny reality. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 00:21:10 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Proving a negative MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric said: >> The problem with suggesting that neonics are the underlying >> cause of CCD, having sublethal effects and combining with >> other stresses/phenomena to create CCD symptoms has been >> disproved by every kind of survey data to date. Bob H. said: > Sub lethal testing is not rocket science. True! Which makes the lack of "sub-lethal levels" in all the samples collected in all the survey work mentioned by Eric a significant clue that the fear and loathing that surrounds neonics is misplaced. So, before you make accusations about "sub-lethal", don't you first have to show some detectable level of exposure, at least at the parts-per-trillion level? Or are these "sub-lethal effects" going to be based upon a claim that the hives suffer "sub-lethal effects" from exposure levels below the detection threshold of even the most sensitive equipment man can fabricate? There is no question that neonics can kill bees, and there is no question that less-than-fatal doses can have sub-lethal effects, but this has nothing to do with CCD. In the recent case in Germany, the pesticide kill was obvious, but it is disingenuous in the extreme to confuse a very familiar pesticide kill scenario with a new disease. The sets of symptoms are not even similar. But the interesting thing about the CCD samples is that they also verify the mix of pesticides to which bees are exposed in a very broad way. The analysis tends to prove clearly that neonics are not generally present even in trace amounts in colonies. > My article in ABJ brought letters from beeks all over the > world plus the U.S. Is this a new phenomena for you? This is not unusual at all in my experience. Even if only 10,000 subscribers read an article, and only 1% of them are moved to write, that is 100 e-mails to answer. I make it a point to answer each and every one I get, so I spend roughly 5 times as much time answering letters about articles as I do writing the articles themselves. If this is the first time this has happened to you, it means that you have touched a nerve or simply written better than in the past. > Like David Hackenberg and CCD I have been pushed to the > front of the fight of beeks against the neonicotinoids. Who pushed you? Isn't more accurate to say that you pushed yourself to wherever you are? And which beekeepers are "fighting against" neonicotinoids? Why? Have you had any recent pesticide kills? There really have not been that many reported, and the ones that have occurred have been cases of SPRAYED PESTICIDES. All we see from you is claims about treated seed corn. What's that got to do with anything, except for the Marx-Brothers Film Festival level of screw-up in Germany? > The leadership of both organizations are convinced after > looking into the neonicotinoids that they are causing problems > through sub lethal effects. Then they need to listen to the qualified experts who are doing the actual work, and stop listening to rumors and unsupported accusations. > Hence the first program to get funding was the grant for > testing the sub lethal effects of Imidacloprid on honey bees > ( paid for by Hagen das grant and I believe Mary Ann is > doing the research). No one doubts for a moment that bees, IF THEY ARE EXPOSED TO AT LEAST MEASUREABLE LEVELS OF ANY PESTICIDE will suffer some sort of tangible effect. But no one is finding any neonicotinoids in the CCD samples of pollen, honey. brood, comb, or adult bees, which tends to show that not only is CCD not connected with neonicotinoids, but also shows that there aren't detectable levels to be found in the generic class of "migratory beekeepers" sampled. So, if and when bees are exposed to pesticides, yes, they do suffer. That's why systemics are so utterly kewl, as they eliminate the spraying that is the proximate cause of so much drift and so many pesticide kills. > Why do you think Bill, LLoyd, Peter, Jim and the > other beek the company does not want to see such a study? I just sent an e-mail to Dr. Jack Boyne of Bayer CropScience. I wonder what he has to say about your claims. I do know that Bayer has likely spent more than $40K just on time and travel expenses sending Dr. Allison Chalmers to the various CCD meetings. She is a honeybee toxicologist. If you may recall, my article on the initial meeting of the CCD Working Group mentioned that the combined assets of "bee research" in the US lacked a qualified toxicologist. Bayer was nice enough to provide her expertise and quite a bit of proprietary intellectual property for free to the effort. Just to confirm, you accuse Bayer of: a) Contacting you and "trying to act like beekeepers", one presumes to find out what an influential person like yourself "knows" of their secrets. b) Declining to fund sublethal testing when you approached Bayer yourself and asked for $40K c) Admitting to you "off the record" that they [Bayer] would denounce findings that sub-lethal effects hurt bees on the grounds the study was funded by beekeepers and the researchers were biased. Why would they engage in nonsensical impersonations of beekeepers on the phone, yet "admit" things to you "off the record"? I'm going to bet that Bayer has never heard of "Bob Harrison", aside from being sent copies of some of your more entertaining posts to Bee-L. > Bayer will not even sit down with us and talk. > Printed company positions have been sent to both groups. If I were Bayer, I wouldn't talk with you either, given the rabid and 100% fact-free nature of the claims being tossed around. > In Europe they realize talking will not solve the issue > so they are pushing for bans. I covered the whole "ban" thing in Germany in my recent post: "Neonicotinoids >>NOT<< Banned in Germany!". I covered the actual situation in both France and Italy in prior posts. I keep posting the hard facts, but you don't seem to pay attention, or even talk to primary sources. > Do not confuse neonicotinoid issues with CCD . This discussion thread was about CCD, so your post might confuse the two issues. > Off label use of temik (Bayer) is killing many many hives > in Orange in Florida. The situation is very serious to those beeks. Doesn't sound very "sub-lethal" to me! Off label use is clearly outside the law. Everyone can agree that off-label uses are criminal matters, and require harsh enforcement actions. And they spray temik, don't they? Spraying... bad. Beekeeper angry! Systemic... good. Beekeeper happy! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 23:17:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Maryam Henein Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Who are the organic beekeepers who have lost bees to CCD? Other than the = few hives Dee lost? -- (\ {:|}{|||}-- =20 (/=20 Maryam Henein Writer/Producer/All-around Raconteur www.vanishingbees.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 06:59:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: > CCD is a myth at present. Mostly smoke with little actual fire! Dear Bob, If you listen, as I did, to a beekeeper describe going from 2000 to 200 live colonies, to buying a semi load of bees to replace losses, to watching an invisible force move from one end of a holding yard to the other sucking the bees out of the hives, you will not think of CCD as a myth. This is a real problem causing real people to suffer terrible losses. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 07:44:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD Comments: To: Bob Harrison Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob: > The final word from the USDA_ARS on "disappearing disease" was that it was not caused by a pathogen but was a genetic problem. SEE: Disappearing Disease: III. A comparison of seven different stocks of the honey bee (Apis mellifera) by Kulincevic, Jovan M. Rothenbuhler, Walter C. Rinderer, Thomas E. Keywords: honey bees Apis mellifera bee diseases honey bee colonies Issue Date: Jun-1984 Variation in North American Stocks of Bees There seems to be a strong feeling among some beekeepers that DD is due to some hereditary deterioration. The same idea has been expressed by some scientists (24). Our investigations were designed to reveal such a deterioration of certain stocks of bees if it does indeed exist. Australia, over many years, has experienced severe "disappearing trouble". It appears when they have a winter-nectar flow from two species of Eucalyptus and no pollen flow. Death rate goes up because of an accumulation of old bees and poor nutrition, while birth rate goes down because of lack of pollen and perhaps lack of egg laying space. The primary cause of the failure of colonies to build up in the apiaries from which the 1977 HRDD stock came seems to be disease. EFB, sacbrood, and chalkbrood were seen. Some colonies showed all three. All 12 nuclei that we received showed chalkbrood. Furthermore, adult bees were sluggish and showed symptoms of hairless-black syndrome. Brood was abandoned in some colonies. >From our data we can offer no support for the genetic hypothesis of DD. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:07:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Malcolm Sanford wrote: > Reasons for decline in colony populations are numerous and might even be a combination of things including: pesticide poisoning, nutritional imbalance, genetic susceptibility, as well as diseases, pests and/or predators. In the past, names given to describe colony conditions such as "autumn collapse," "spring dwindling," and "disappearing disease," have not been helpful in determining solutions to perceived problems. > Some lines of bees are inherently more healthy and productive in specific geographic areas than others. The main reason one the almost universal recommendation for any problems, requeening, has a good chance of success is due to the great variability that exists in honey bees in the United States. > It is also a myth that better stock exists elsewhere. This has and continues to result in the practice of introducing bee stocks from one area of the world to another. Introduction of Africanized honey bees and the Asiatic bee mite, Varroa jacobsoni, to South America and now the tracheal mite, Acarapis woodi R., to Central America and the United States shows how dangerous this can be ... it is becoming more and more clear that the practice of importing bee stock must be stopped and genetic selection of stocks in specific geographic areas be substituted, if progress against bee disease is to result. * * * Maryann Frazier is coordinating research on bees and pesticides. She says one analysis of pollen that bees had stored in affected and unaffected hives has been completed, but the work didn't point to a culprit. The colonies with the greatest variety of pesticides at the highest concentrations "are doing quite well," she says. Some of Jay Evans' work, too, has touched on pesticides. He specializes in honeybee genetics, and he's approaching the problem by looking at activity in genes known to kick in when bees encounter certain stressors. He and his colleagues are checking bees from affected and healthy colonies for any heightened responses by genes known to indicate exposure to pesticides or pathogens. No clear pattern had emerged in either the pesticide- or pathogen-related genes. "I keep looking," Evans says. http://www.sciencenews.org/ * * * Dr. Charles Wick used a new system of genetic analysis to identify pathogens in ground-up bee samples from California. He found several viruses, including members of a recently identified genus called iflaviruses. It is not known whether these small, RNA-containing viruses, which infect the Varroa mite, are pathogenic to bees. Skowronski forwarded the samples to DeRisi, who also found evidence of the viruses, along with genetic material from N. ceranae. "There was a lot of stuff from Nosema, about 25% of the total," Skowronski said. "That meant there was more than there was bee RNA. That leads me to believe that the bee died from that particular pathogen." http://www.latimes.com/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 07:23:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, From what know I there are two types of Organic Beekeepers, those that do use treatments of chemicals and treatments, verses those that do not use chemicals and treatments. Of which group does this quote refer to? God Bless, Keith Malone > "Pesticides can't be an explanation for why > organic beekeepers are losing their colonies." > (quoting Dr. May Berenbaum) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:46:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone wrote: > From what know I there are two types of Organic Beekeepers, those that > do use treatments of chemicals and treatments, verses those that do not > use chemicals and treatments. Of which group does this quote refer to? Humor aways has truth which makes it funny. I have a good friend who is certified, sells organic honey, and uses more brand miticides than I ever have. I am much more organic then he is. As far as which ones they were, Jerry has that info and he is not talking to preserve confidentiality. Which I agree with, since it is a business. Way back when the Alar fiasco broke, Maine asked for those who used Alar in their apple orchards to let them know, then published the data. Killed off every honest orchardist and showed conclusively not to volunteer information to government. Jerry is absolutely right in keeping the info confidential. Especially with what some on this list are saying, that pesticides are the cause of CCD, so the hives and honey are obviously contaminated. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:53:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This is a hot discussion to step into, but I'll throw in my observations: In answer to Bob about N ceranae, there more I track progress of the infection, compare infected colonies, and compare treatments, the less I suspect it as a serious killer of its own right. This observation may prove to be in error, but that's what it looks like right now--I need to count a lot of spores this week to publish some actual data. It appears to me, and some others with nosema experience, that N apis may only be an issue during times of nutritional stress, or it another pathogen is concurrently affecting the colony (some viruses clearly are suspect). If N ceranae is indeed a problem only with nutritionally stressed bees, that might explain why colonies collapse from nosema in corn, alfalfa, sunflower, or white box (Australia). All of the above have incomplete amino acid profiles in their pollen. Re genetics and CCD, when some colonies survive a CCD wave through an operation, the most reasonable hypothesis is that those colonies were genetically resistant by some mechanism (I strongly suspect an siRNA mechanism, which I will cover in an article soon). Dr Ilan Sela brought the resistance of some bees to IAPV to our attention, and Rothenbuhler, Gilliam, the Danes, and others have detailed how it is possible to breed bees resistant to hairless black syndrome, chalkbrood, and nosema, respectively. If you can breed resistance to viruses and other pathogens, that is clearly genetic. So I'd say that genetics likely have something to do with the problem, or at least with the solution! I'll be writing more specifically about this issue soon. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 19:58:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 00:02:36 -0400, James Fischer wrote: > >"Pesticides can't be an explanation for why >organic beekeepers are losing their colonies." >(quoting Dr. May Berenbaum) > thanks you for the quotation Jim. Of course the obvious question is was there more then two organic beekeepers? Many of us are skeptical as a self diagnosis might be involved in this so called scientific sampling or survey. Lloyd Spears summed up my observations and those of many of my friends in a recent post. "I live in an area populated by lots of medium size to very large (by East Coast standards) migratory beekeepers. Those that take their bees south for spring build up and then move them into one or two pollination crops before settling for the summer honey production do not seem to be suffering CCD-like symptoms, nor do those that keep their bees home for the winter. Those that try to fill 6-10 pollination crops (with the same hives), then summer honey production, complain of CCD-like symptoms." I sell at the mpls farmers market and interact with probably 100 regional small to medium sized beekeepers over the course of the April-Nov market season. This in addition to university and bee supply house contacts and contacts within the migratory sector - so its not like I live under a rock and come into the big city twice a year. If we have a couple of big boys reporting CCD to Jerry B that must be about it for this area cause none of the beeks I talk to every weekend know of anyone who has CCD. It just is not present here in MN/WI/IA with the small - medium stationary folks. I suspect any data points that suggest otherwise are what we call outliers and might be self diagnosed ME TOO CCD. So while there may be some political reasons for this idea to be kept alive that its every where and affecting all beekeepers - out here on the ground there is zero evidence in this part of the USA and I get kind of offended when someone who lives 1000 miles away tries to convince me otherwise. Can other posters from other regions confirm or deny this in their area please? Lets skip over that old survey and hear from others "on the ground" as this could be very informative. Disclaimer: My comments should not be construed to mean I have no sympathy for those outfits that have been devastated, nor do I suggest CCD is not real. I am commenting on my region and the small- medium and or organic stationary claims. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:43:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maryam Henein wrote: > Who are the organic beekeepers who have lost bees to CCD? Other than the few hives Dee lost? > I think she lost more than a few. Perhaps she would divulge how many. Keith **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:04:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter questions Bob's statement: Bob: > The final word from the USDA_ARS on "disappearing disease" was that it was not caused by a pathogen but was a genetic problem. I have been in beekeeping since the fifties. My ABJ collection dates to the roaring twenties. Quote from pg. 215 of the 37th edition of the ABC XYZ.( time period of the phenomenon) If the below is not good enough I can start pulling ABJ & BC articles by both Rothenbuler & Wilson. Pg. 215 "Dr. William T. Wilson , of the USDA ( known to Bob H. as "Bill" and the lead USDA-ARS researcher on "Disappearing Disease") has suggested that the CAUSE of "disappearing disease" is a GENETIC SHIFT in the honeybee population. Undesirable GENES have caused a change in the physiology or behavior of the bees. Dr. Wilson has undertaken EXTENSIVE RESEARCH to test his hypothesis." With the above final word on "disappearing disease" ( after years of research) one can easily see why today's researchers decided to call the new problem other than "disappearing disease". The similarities between "disappearing disease" and CCD are eerily similar. Actually almost exactly the same! To date CCD is simply a name for a set of symptoms with no single cause. Not to be confused with nosema ceranae or the neonicotinoids. Which many of us consider real problems but a few do not. Also for Jim but I have posted same many times on BEE-L but here again: Temik comes in a bag and is broadcast. Was originally a product of Union Carbide then Bayer purchased the rights. Currently banned in the U.K. Was one of the first systemic pesticides. Many reported problems in Florida such as ground water contamination. Reportedly found in oranges and orange juice but still legal to use in Jan. & Feb. at harvest time. Many beeks in Florida report bee kills with bees in orange traced back to temik use. Some growers still using as the first label read instead of doing as the new label requires. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 02:10:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Bob Harrison wrote: Pg. 215 "Dr. William T. Wilson , of the USDA ... has suggested that the CAUSE of "disappearing disease" ... With the above final word on "disappearing disease" ==================== bob, i'm not sure how any language where a researcher "suggests" a cause can be construed as a "final word". "suggests" leaves a lot of wiggle room that "has proven" or even "has determined" don't...yet, "suggests" was the word chosen. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 02:18:35 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit in it's common usage wrt bees, "organic" can mean different things. if one is going to use this as a description wrt operations affected, it is necessary to reveal how the term is used. if it's used only for "certified organic" operations, that's an easy definition....others get more complicated....but given how the word is used by beekeepers, it does seem an important distinction between those that use no treatments at all, and those that use "approved organic" treatments such as formic acid, thymol, sugar dusting, etc. wrt confidentiality, i don't see how this is any bigger a problem than revealing that beekeepers that use "treatment x" have a correlation with "y problems". defining the terms you are using to classify where the samples come from has nothing to do with protecting confidentiality. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 02:30:36 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Keith Benson wrote: Perhaps she would divulge how many. ...she has, several times. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0805B&L=BEE-L&P=R3969&I=-3&X=035B3802FD25301310&Y=lrherboldsheimer%40hotmail.com CCD symptoms last year with 200 hit in one spot bringing numbers down from about 860 to about 600. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0804A&L=BEE-L&P=R3850&I=-3&X=035B3802FD25301310&Y=lrherboldsheimer%40hotmail.com Reference the 200 or of 300 I wrote about losing last Aug/Sep that I had inspected for CCD with Dr Bromenshenk, and then I wrote here what going to do to go forward in the 6-7 yards to get over. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0804A&L=BEE-L&P=R738&I=-3&X=035B3802FD25301310&Y=lrherboldsheimer%40hotmail.com I can easily go with what you say here, having been up front with losing 200 out of 300 or so hives in one general area this past Sep just prior to fall 2007. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:56:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: > The similarities between "disappearing disease" and CCD are eerily > similar. Actually almost exactly the same! Direct quote >From the same ABC XYZ pg.215 "The following symptoms are those most commonly associated with the condition called "disappearing disease" 1. Most or all cases of of "disappearing disease" occur during the fall or spring. bob Sounds like "CCD" to me 2.Affected colonies die out with plenty of honey and pollen stores available bob sound like CCd to me 3. Most of the bees die away from the hive in the field Wow sure sounds like CCD symptoms to me 4. Affected colonies are queen right wow exactly like reported CCD Jeff Pettis (National convention) " we have not got a clear picture as to the cause of CCD" bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 23:14:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10807261253t13c76079ufb1954d50afd5b2f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy said: > In answer to Bob about N ceranae, there more I track progress of the > infection, compare infected colonies, and compare treatments, the less I > suspect it as a serious killer of its own right. This observation may > prove > to be in error, but that's what it looks like right now- First let me say Randy and I email back an forth off list on many subjects and compare notes. I have the greatest respect for his opinion and have sought his opinion many times on a variety of subjects. It is true we report seeing different things and suspect we both are observing what we say we are and instead of disagreeing we are both trying to figure out why nosema ceranae is a killer in my area and not so much in California. Randy lists some of the things he feels could be the difference. I would add one other. It is possible that the beeks having the most troubles in my area have never fed fumidil and their hives are full of spores. Also possibly their original nosema ceranae issues date back many years as some of these beeks have been having dead out problems for around 5-6 years. Don't know and may never know for sure. Next I will say I have discussed off list nosema ceranae with Jerry. Jerry B. in my opinion has beliefs very similar to those randy posted. To quote Jerry B. from earlier this week: He feels nosema ceranae by itself may not be the problem but when combined with a couple of viruses then becomes the killer" CCD in my opinion is a big grey area and not a black & white area and both these guys have reasonable hypothesis which may well be correct concerning nosema ceranae and its relation to CCD. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:20:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Many beeks in Florida report bee kills with bees in orange > traced back to temik use. Some growers still using as the > first label read instead of doing as the new label requires. Bob, Temik is a Restricted Use pesticide..."For retail sale to and use only by Certified Applicators or persons under the direct supervision of a Certified Applicator, and only for those uses covered by the Certified Applicator's certification." In California, at least, that means the grower and / or applicator must first obtain a Restricted Use Permit and notify the County Ag Dept. of exactly when and how it will be applied. At it's option, the Ag. Dept. may come out, unannounced, to the growers property to make sure the product is being applied properly. So grower and / or applicator ignorance of what the label says and requires is virtually impossible. And growers realize that violating the label of a restricted use pesticide risks severe penalties. Also, orange juice packers, like other tree nut and fruit packers, routinely monitor pesticide levels in their products and growers know this. So that is an additional incentive for growers not to take chances violating the label. For all these reasons, I have a hard time believing that "some growers [are] still using as the first label read instead of doing as the new label requires." Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 19:47:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: So-called feral bees- A little turn In-Reply-To: <363325.48440.qm@web86210.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > Any better ideas for determining VSH levels in a relatively non-invasive > way? Hi Gavin, VSH is easy to spot by the presence of uncapped purple-eyed healthy-looking pupae, or uncapped, chewed out healthy looking pupae (not like chalkbrood, or any other disease--pupae look fresh and white). Lack of such doesn't mean that the bees don't have it, but it is very common to see during active brood rearing--generally at the level of a cell or two per frame side, and sometimes more. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 07:19:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Pg. 215 > "Dr. William T. Wilson , of the USDA ( known to Bob H. as "Bill" and the > lead USDA-ARS researcher on "Disappearing Disease") has suggested that > the CAUSE of "disappearing disease" is a GENETIC SHIFT in the honeybee > population. Undesirable GENES have caused a change in the physiology or > behavior of the bees. Dr. Wilson has undertaken EXTENSIVE RESEARCH to > test his hypothesis." Then > To date CCD is simply a name for a set of symptoms with no single cause. The same can be said about Disappearing disease, except its symptoms are more general than CCD. Jerry has refined the symptoms to identify something that has only recently been identified. That does not mean that the specific symptoms have not happened before, just that the discipline to segregate symptoms seems to not have been as rigorous. If the problem is a shift in genetics, then when was the shift, since DD has been with us since the late 1800s? Almost every time back then, a pathogen was the supposed agent. Jim posted counter views to Dr. Wilson, so I guess we have competing science. Could it be that the behavior has been with us all along? I take issue with it being undesirable, since it is a colony survivor behavior against a pathogen by infected bees leaving the colony which would save the remainder of the unaffected bees. Bees leaving the colony has been seen with Varroa and Tracheal heavy colonies, especially Tracheal in winter where you will find bees clustered outside the hive in sub-zero weather. We know it is the virus that infects the bees and causes colony demise. There is that pathogen again. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:06:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit wrt: "Pesticides can't be an explanation for why organic beekeepers are losing their colonies." (quoting Dr. May Berenbaum) ...i have no idea if these colonies were tested for pesticide (or miticide) contamination or not. but (as we have discussed before), there is more than one route to contamination. assuming that organic operations are not affected by pesticides is akin to assuming the 19 year old who wraps a car around a tree wasn't drunk because a 19 year old can't buy, posses or consume alcohol legally. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:22:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob writes: >With the above final word on "disappearing disease" I am sorry, but since Bob did not give the date on that snippet, I have no way of knowing if this is more final or not: JOVAN M. KULINCEVIC, WALTER C. ROTHENBUHLER, and THOMAS E. RINDERER WROTE IN *1984* A prominent hypothesis over the last few years has involved some sort of stock deterioration. It has been suggested that such deterioration may have resulted: 1) from the admixture of African bee genes to the gene pool of North American bees, 2) from excessive inbreeding of bee stocks, or 3) from the maladaptation to northern climates of bees reared over many generations in the South. If such genetic weaknesses exist, it should be possible to obtain evidence of them by a careful comparison of DD with non-DD stocks in the same location. Furthermore, such an investigation should reveal something about the range of variation in North American bees. Is there sufficient variation to insure success for a program of genetic selection, or are our bees reduced to a uniform genetic mediocrity? Do we have the genetic variation to deal successfully with Africanized bees? ... From our data we can offer NO support for the genetic hypothesis of DD. * I can send the entire 28 page report to anyone who wants it. I don't make this stuff up. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:02:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: <000501c8eff5$9eb9c5a0$dc2d50e0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline * 1979 -- Bill Wilson himself wrote: > The fact is that DD has a great diversity of signs and symptoms, not easily identified, and is often confused with other bee-mortality problems. However, this does not diminish the importance of DD to the beekeeping industry. It does indicate the need for more research and challenges our ability to solve the DD problem. Wilson, W. T. & D. M. Menapace. 1979. "Disappearing disease of honey bees: a survey of the United States", American Bee Journal March 1979 Reprinted with permission from American Bee Journal, March 30, 2007 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:35:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >... From our data we can offer NO support for the > genetic hypothesis of DD. No support from said researcher means little as few researchers agree on many hypothesis! I think Rothenbuler peer reviewed the paper as did Renderer. The genetic as a possible cause for DD in fact came from Rothenbuler ( a world renown bee geneticist). One sentence out of 28 pages proves little. it was common in those days to get all hypothesis peer reviewed. Dee Lusby's articles were all peer reviewed and had the peer reviewing person name AFTER the authors. I suspect Rothenbuler felt the opinion of the author should be passed on. peer review example: Eric Ericson's name was after the Lusby's in the Lusby's article and he constantly spoke out against small cell. Yet he peer reviewed the article and added his name. All the peer reviewer does for the most part is to make sure the hypothesis of the author could be a possibility as a person knowledgeable on the subject. Peer review adds creditability to research papers however are not always the views of the peer reviewer. Bee magazines used to peer review certain articles. The editor would simply send the article to a person qualified and the person would either add his name or reject the article and if happened most times the editor would reject the article also or ask for certain changes. Of course only Tom Renderer remains I think and could answer if he simply peer reviewed or actually composed the paper. Tom could be contacted but the general last word on DD was that it was basically a genetic problem. Wilson in his ABJ articles posed many possible scenarios but when Rothenbuler came into the picture the final answer became genetics. Which without further research could not be proven. Deknow. Researchers of those days always left an out when discussing a problem. The were taught in college to use certain words to give a way out if new research proved their position wrong. Some of today's researchers could learn a valuable lessen from the early bee researchers. Then the article in "Science" would not have been such an embarrassment to a few. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 12:42:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---- "deknow@netzero.net" wrote: > assuming that organic operations are not affected by pesticides . . . I don't believe anyone has made that assumption. Keith **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:20:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ---- "deknow@netzero.net" wrote: > -- Keith Benson wrote: > Perhaps she would divulge how many. > > ...she has, several times. I am aware of that. The point I was trying to make was that her losses were not minimal. If you divide her operation up into smaller segments, some parts got walloped. I would not feel comfortable quantifying someone else’s loss, that is for them to do, regardless of what is in the archives. Call me crazy, but I think it is discourteous. If memory serves someone requested documentation of an organic beekeeper losing hives to CCD. If that is what happened (and as Dee says, it is JB's call) then there ya go. Don't get me wrong I am sad for Dee losing a significant portion of her operation and wish it had not happened. Knowing a little bit of Dee’s history however I suspect she will rebound and forge on. Keith **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:54:56 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: <18038990.95271217179259274.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Keith Benson wrote: > If memory serves someone requested documentation of an > organic beekeeper losing hives to CCD. What they are really requesting is documentation of an organic beekeeper losing colonies which succumbed to symptoms normally associated with an unknown honeybee malady OR maladies often referred to as CCD. Its interesting in this world of beekeeping where diagnosing of bee maladies is inherently difficult and often confused by ambiguity of symptoms. Some of the most ambiguous symptoms, when assembled together make a positive diagnosis of CCD. I realize that the genies already out of the bottle,,, But it just isn’t sitting well with me how sure folks are of their diagnosis, as well how eager many are to accept them. I would feel at least a little better if those saying "diagnosed as having CCD” would replace it with the phrase; "diagnosed with symptoms normally associated with CCD”. At least it will allow some margin for error. Best Wishes, Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:58:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob Harrison: > One sentence out of 28 pages proves little Right. Unless it happens to be the bottom line, take home message, of the entire study -- which it is. But don't take my word for it. I can send this freely available document to anyone who wishes to read it. -- Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 12:22:51 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: So-called feral bees- A little turn In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10807261947o149bf4b0p88ad404cd425a6a1@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > VSH is easy to spot by the presence of uncapped purple-eyed > healthy-looking > pupae, or uncapped, chewed out healthy looking pupae (not > like chalkbrood, > or any other disease--pupae look fresh and white). This may not necessarily be suggestive only to VHS. I don’t discuss personal business much, but I will reveal that it was proven to me by our State Apiarist Dennis van Engelsdorp during a detailed inspection of my colonies. Using a simple technique, he clearly demonstrated that it was waxworm infestation of brood causing the symptom sometimes associated with hygienic behavior. Strangely enough, colonies that tested above 90% hygienic occasionally had one or two waxworm in brood during the spring inspections. Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:56:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: <27B10EC0BE444BD0A2474D3AFA568505@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I started this thread with science in the title for a reason. Interesting that science is being slammed, disparaged and discounted when the poster disagrees with it, but upheld as the fount of all truth when it agrees. What is obvious in the discussion of genetics as the cause of DD is that "suggests" and "hypothesis" are predominate with no research proving that conclusion. The data leads that way for the researcher, but it was not proved. However, now we have actual studies that show it was not the basis for DD. As far as peer review, it all depends on the publication. If it is the ABJ I respectfully suggest that the door is wide and the acceptance rate is high compared to most real scientific journals. When I edited our State newsletter, I read two articles lifted from it in the ABJ without attribution. So, as I said, the acceptance process is not stringent if they lift articles from a State newsletter. Flattering, however. The real issue is not if an article is peer reviewed, but scientifically proven. Take cold fusion. It was peer reviewed and published, but then the real work started. Did it work in other labs? It did not and that was the end of cold fusion. Dee can have her papers published, but, as Jim noted, when her queens exhibit AHB behavior in Florida, it tends to say more than any peer reviewed paper. So in the case of DD, we had a hypothesis, then an actual study and the hypothesis was disproved. How many people peer review a hypothesis is not as important as research that affirms or disproves it. especially when that research is repeatable in other labs. Science is not static. It is a continuing process with things being affirmed and disproved. Most science stands the test, but occasionally things that were thought to work one way are shown to work another or not at all. That is the exception, but those are always the cases that are brought up to show science is not to be believed, even if they are few in number. Actually, it was science that showed that it was incorrect, so the arguer is stuck in an irrational argument. "Science cannot be believed because science can prove itself wrong." Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:00:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Stewart Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maryam I am not too sure CCD is an organic or non-organic issue. At least nothing points to that yet. If it were Ohio would be seeing its share of CCD. Right now from the sounds of it Ohio has exploded this year (or at least a great year). I know in my corner bees are, literally everywhere...non-kept bees and kept bees alike. I am just pointing this out because it seems to get overlooked a lot. Ohio is no different than other State. Its super reliant on GMO and pesticides and has crops that require pollination. Two years ago it was one of the worst years for Ohio...all weather and mite related be they organic or non. I am just curious how organic is relevant to the discussion. You can be as organic as you want in how you treat your bees and keep them, but with usch a large forage area you have absolutely no control over what they bring back to the hive. Richard Stewart Carriage House Farm North Bend, Ohio An Ohio Century Farm Est. 1848 (513) 967-1106 http://www.carriagehousefarmllc.com rstewart@zoomtown.com On Jul 26, 2008, at 2:17 AM, Maryam Henein wrote: > Who are the organic beekeepers who have lost bees to CCD? Other > than the few hives Dee lost? > -- > (\ > {:|}{|||}-- > (/ > Maryam Henein > Writer/Producer/All-around Raconteur > www.vanishingbees.com > > > **************************************************** > * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * > * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * > **************************************************** **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:51:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Science, Really? Under the pretext of so-called science, one can huff and puff lots of hot air with fake orgasms; Creationism and Scientology, for instance, all claim how they too are kissing-cousins of Science while busy pushing and promoting their hidden monolithic world view: conversion, conversion, and more conversion, of others into their mold. When someone claims such unerring accuracy of being scientific, I get scared, for their understanding of science, for instance, is not science at all, as we understand the definition; rather, in such instances, science degenerates into a religion, of sort. Such pseudo-scientists fail to realize that the very essence of science is the unerring and underlying doubt that had started the inquiry in the first place; hence, even after repeatable experiment, science must humbly employ cautious verbs, such as suggests, it appears, and indicates, etc. and NEVER an absolute statement, knowing fully well that under different sets of circumstances or given long enough time, the results may vary or change. (Hence such statement as mites *appeared* to have learned not to wipe out its host, thus preventing their own demise.) Only religious conviction can provide definite/absolute answers, not science. While recognizing the dynamic nature of scienceScience is not static. It is a continuing process with things being affirmed and disproved. Most science stands the test, but occasionally things that were thought to work one way are shown to work another or not at alla poster here damns science for its suggestions and hypothesis without certainty. The ability to say we dont know what causes DD *at this point* is in and of itself a scientific statement, a cautious, honest, humble statement of facts. Being wish-wash is not cowardice, but being factual. To say CCD is caused by Nosema-C alone is a definitive statement with religious certainty, but we are not so sure yet. May be or may be not. So what? The same scientific poster makes another glaring sweeping generalization, an uninformed and unscientific assumption, in earlier post that agricultural chemicals, which had allegedly killed bees, did not affect other insects in the vicinity; therefore, the chemical must be harmless-not realizing different insecticides impact on different species of insects *differently* because their genetic make-up is different and unique, a totally idiosyncratic survival strategy in the game of producing the next generation. This *scientific* fact has been already well- recognized by entomologists as early as in the 1960s; in fact, Rachel Carson, among others, reiterates this important discovery in her seminal book Silent Spring. Little reading, just as little science, is indeed a dangerous thing. I do not post everyday on Bee-L, for I am getting tired of daily arm-chair philosophizing of this type of nonsense cloaked in the vestige of science, especially regarding the cause of CCD, about which anyone who can process food yields a pie of an opinion daily; this spinning of second-handed opinions, though interesting and good for time-killing for some, neither proves nor ascertains anything other than googled facts. For the record, I too have an opinion as to what may be causing CCD, but I bite my tongue, and being able to hold my silence, in my view, is much better than pretending I am doing some dubious, self-serving, scientific inquiry. Yoon **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:35:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Simon St.Laurent" Subject: data (was neonicotinoids, CCD) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Ames writes: > Of course the obvious question is was there more then two organic > beekeepers? Many of us are skeptical as a self diagnosis might be > involved in this so called scientific sampling or survey. In watching the blasting back and forth here, I've marveled at just how rarely these "obvious questions" get asked. There doesn't seem to be any central registry keeping track of these things, and pretty much all of the data seems to be anecdotal or at best sampled in ways that don't lead to statistically meaningful conclusions for beekeeping as a whole. CCD seems to be an epidemiologist's nightmare. Not just because of the large number of possible causes, or the potential conflicts with various interests, but also because many (most?) beekeepers don't seem particularly willing to publicly share details of what they're doing. There doesn't seem to be any momentum toward treating this as a public health issue where everyone involved _should_ be keeping track and sharing information. Even where there's decent data on hives that suffered CCD, there isn't great data on hives that didn't. Did neighbors have the same experience? Different? What was different? Right now, it seems like the answer is just "don't stress out your hives" - which means different things to everyone, and is often beyond our control. Thanks, Simon St.Laurent - Recent arrival http://simonstl.com/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:31:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Southern Subject: ACD - (was Neonicotinoids, science and CCD) In-Reply-To: <325712.85788.qm@web56411.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/27/08 2:54 PM, J. Waggle at naturebee@YAHOO.COM wrote: > I would feel at least a little better if those saying "diagnosed as having > CCD would replace it with the phrase; "diagnosed with symptoms normally > associated with CCD. At least it will allow some margin for error. Excuse me if this appears an insignificant question. Are "colony events showing symptoms normally associated with CCD" apparent only in collections of colonies - apiaries - or are there reports of single colonies (in backyards) showing the same symptoms? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:44:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan O'Callaghan Subject: Re: Bee Thrive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is anybody on the list familiar with this company? They recently contacted our local association wanting to place an ad in our newsletter, but none of our members has heard of them. (We don'taccept advertisements, but have discussed it on occasion)) Dan O'Callaghan **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 22:37:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Bee Thrive Comments: To: Dan OCallaghan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Re: Bee Thrive I have been trying to post info on this. The company has been trying to sell swamp water extracts for anything and everything, including the flu, AIDS, herpes and hangovers. They were told to stop making claims about its efficacy for human diseases. Now they are moving on the gullible beekeepers who are subjected to a variety of unsubstantiated claims and still will bite at anything that moves. Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 05:42:30 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Syntax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline What about if this CCD or the previous DD and all those other unsolved bee disapearing misteries are periodical, cyclic event linked to astronomical patterns and available energy in the living system of earth? Is this pseudo science? If so, they will solve unresolved. What about someone with time linking the bee data JWaggle provides with these other "sort of" scientific piece of information like the Haleor Landscheidt cycles? Does anyone have long term data of Australia or NewZealand, or 200 years is not long enough? Are we facing a global cooling? http://motls.blogspot.com/2008/06/sun-jupiter-saturn-spin-orbit-coupling.html http://hypsithermal.wordpress.com/2008/06/29/case-for-global-cooling/ Is saturn responsible for the current volcanic eruptions? Are there other views still posible in this debate? Do the virus morph on cool, medium or high temperature environments? I know Jim will kill me for not been scientific and will find all sort of conspiracy behind the links provided, he is probably rigth. Bob will kill me for not coupling with him against Neonic, but my enemy for the moment are carbamatos applyied to apples (SEVIN XLR of Bayer) tough. Randy will call me crazy for sending this mail, he is absolutelly rigth. Probably Aaron will not let it through, I hope he does!!. For sure Peter will laugh downunder there, this global cooling theory started there for me . We here in the south are facing a cooling. Didn't it hailat Syney? I bet this CCD will not be solved, bees will recover by themself and all this mortality is selecting the bees for the colder future that comes. It is just a matter of waiting, the answers are around the corner. In the mean time we have learned a lot about nosema, viruses and how to keep bees in this modern polluted time, changing and sanitizing our equipment, lowering our own chemical inputs, feeding (nurturing) our colonies, managing stress better for our bees and our selfs, and findings varroa resistant stock. We are better beekeepers today than yesterday!!! Anyone have photos of the Fruetel Bee Boom that can share? *Syntax* *A man staring at his equations* *said that the universe had a beginning.* *There had been an explosion, he said.* *A bang of bangs, and the universe was born.* *And it is expanding, he said.* *He had even calculated the length of its life:* *ten billion revolutions of the earth around the sun.* *The entire globe cheered;* *They found his calculations to be science.* *None thought that by proposing that the universe began,* *the man had merely mirrored the syntax of his mother tongue;* *a syntax which demands beginnings, like birth,* *and developments, like maturation,* *and ends, like death, as statements of facts.* *The universe began,* *and it is getting old, the man assured us,* *and it will die, like all things die,* *like he himself died after confirming mathematically* *the syntax of his mother tongue.* * * * *************************** *The Other Syntax* *Did the universe really begin?* *Is the theory of the big bang true?* *These are not questions, though they sound like they are.* *Is the syntax that requires beginnings, developments* *and ends as statements of fact the only syntax that exists?* *That's the real question.* *There are other syntaxes.* *There is one, for example, which demands that varieties* *of intensity be taken as facts.* *In that syntax nothing begins and nothing ends;* *thus birth is not a clean, clear-cut event,* *but a specific type of intensity,* *and so is maturation, and so is death.* *A man of that syntax, looking over his equations, finds that* *he has calculated enough varieties of intensity* *to say with authority* *that the universe never began* *and will never end,* *but that it has gone, and is going now, and will go* *through endless fluctuations of intensity.* *That man could very well conclude that the universe itself* *is the chariot of intensity* *and that one can board it* *to journey through changes without end.* *He will conclude all that, and much more,* *perhaps without ever realizing* *that he is merely confirming* *the syntax of his mother tongue.* * **************************** *From "The Active Side of Infinity" by Carlos Castaneda* *Copyright 1998 by Laugan Productions* -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 01:20:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: anonymous comment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Too much hearsay On this BBS only 3-4 admit to ccd, perhaps 1-2 witnesses, its hard to tell There's something wrong here. Instead of specificy me get theorizing Just my simple observation (unfortunately unconfirmed), that ants can be severely affected by ccd should give a clue as to what it is NOT (BTW this is a good "me too" test - 1 week) (Do ants rob or avoid?) You all know you can stop a yard crash with formic - right? If hot, weaker formic, add H2O. Pull supers, Fresh empties, any honey is bee feed How much honey can a sick hive make? Its better if they don't crash, less contamination I think formic is a mild viral fumigant, just a guess. (on the surface of the bee - all that hair - grooming) Me too -- is it really ccd? If there are still hives left, your choice is a sick, but not yet weak hive close to a (empty)dead out/collapse. Before inspection set up a ramp, as per hiving a swarm, a bit big. At end of inspection shake 2-3 frames onto ramp. Try to minimize nectar spray Close hive You are interested in the last 10-20% on the ramp, the laggards These bees will show symptoms or not or different If you see all 3 commonest(also unconfirmed), (STR, ankle rub, feet too close) get out the formic pads for all hives How sure do want to be and for what reason If you're really sure it was ccd, I recommend a 2nd formic treatment. (ie 6-8 weeks) I do wish there was something else, I quite dislike formic Fortunately the bees don't share my opinion I wish some of you would "get with it", as few as you may be Our little friends/servants/slaves are going thru their short lives with sore guts,perhaps a majority of their adult lives. Wake a mile.... And yet no one "sees them". Maybe X is 'released'/made more infectious by stress ie transport, mites, toxins (I'm not sure what) If they had nothing else but corn pollen that might be enough stress or is it the bees can't handle unusual stress well and fail? Then the infection runs wild, has lots of vectors Since I saw sedentary hives overwhelmed with ease (in retrospect) I guess more infectious via quicker cycle dave **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:45:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: <488B8D14.7000706@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Let me reply to some questions and points raised in this discussion: Brian: Can other posters from other regions confirm or deny this in their area please? Brian, in my operation, I started to see unusual losses 3-4 years ago when my bees were in irrigated alfalfa. Large losses of adult bees, poor brood. No indication of pesticides. Happened to others in the area. I first suspected spraying for mosquitos for West Nile Virus, and another large beek also suspected the same, unbeknownst to me. He suffered massive losses. Upon extensive investigation, the mosquito spray hypothesis became weak. However, the other beek had recently switched to stock from another country--not sure if his losses were due to the switch, or led to the switch. In any case, he had thousands of colonies die all around my ten yards. I assume that my bees were exposed to his problem, and my bees followed suit following his losses. I would not necessarily call our losses CCD, but colonies either did not build, or dwindled, or collapsed. Drifts of dead adult bees on the ground were noticable. Yes, I checked with the sole spray applicator in the area, plus county ag, plus mosquito abatement. I was not yet testing for N ceranae, so could have been nosema due to poor nutrition in alfalfa, perhaps coupled with a virus. Don't know. Bob: Also possibly their original nosema ceranae issues date back many years as some of these beeks have been having dead out problems for around 5-6 years. Yes, Bob, as noted above. I wish that I had samples of bees from those years! But since I started testing, my alfalfa colonies have less nosema than those colonies that I leave home in California dry conditions. Although I said that nosema doesn't appear to be the prime killer, having a new nosema in the bees all summer would certainly add an additional stress to them, and make them more susceptible to (at least some) viruses. I'm not letting N ceranae off the hook--just saying that it alone may not cause collapse, just as mites alone don't. Bill: since it is a colony survivor behavior against a pathogen by infected bees leaving the colony which would save the remainder of the unaffected bees. This sounds like a reasonable colony-level immune behavior. I've mentioned before that many dinks left to die before almonds this year rebounded later on their own. I've seen them clear up severe sacbrood unaided. Bob: The similarities between "disappearing disease" and CCD are eerily similar. Yes, which makes me wonder if the diseases are part of Pete's Red Queen hypothesis. Every so many years (perhaps associated with sun or weather cycles, Juanse), some combination of poor nutrition, nosema, a viral mutation, and perhaps a cold snap eliminate the genetically no longer fit colonies--leaving only those with immune systems adjusted for the new pathogen combinations. This would be simple host/parasite/pathogen evolution in action. If this is what is happening currently, it is exacerbated by several additional parasites and pathogens that didn't exist in the U.S. forty years ago. And perhaps a shift in plant patterns due to climate change, pollutants, or even sublethal effects of new pesticides and miticides. IMHO, the agent that would tip the balance would be a new, or mutated existing, pathogen--most likely a virus. Jerry's finally released the fact that his team has apparently found far more viruses in bees than has been previously reported in this country. So if the issue is indeed mainly viral, what can be done about it? Currently, little directly, although there is ample research that has demonstrated that a smart RNA virus lab should be able to produce a siRNA virus-silencing compound that could be applied to colonies. Indirectly, there are several things. Address colony nutrition and keep parasite loads low. But the final solution will again lie in genetics. The surviving colonies likely already have the cure for the problem in their genes. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:13:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD and I am not goring to start another thread In-Reply-To: <325712.85788.qm@web56411.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What they are really requesting is documentation of an organic > beekeeper losing colonies which succumbed to symptoms normally > associated with an unknown honeybee malady OR maladies often > referred to as CCD. Let us remember the title of the original thread (not my title commentary). Organic beekeepers were brought up because of their pesticide free regimen. They suffered CCD in Almonds like others did, as noted by Jerry. Jerry was there and noted the symptoms, so if you are saying he is incorrect in his diagnosis, then you have an issue with someone who was there and saw it against an opinion. I noted his comment on organic beekeepers also suffering to show that neonicotinoids were unlikely in that situation. A pathogen was. The original thread is all about Neonicotinoids and CCD and my issue with them being tied together with zero science and lots of opinion. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:25:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: data (was neonicotinoids, CCD) In-Reply-To: <488CF823.8070100@simonstl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Simon St.Laurent wrote: > There doesn't seem to be any central registry keeping track of these > things, and pretty much all of the data seems to be anecdotal or at best > sampled in ways that don't lead to statistically meaningful conclusions > for beekeeping as a whole. Welcome to the list. There is a data base and the arguments about anecdotal vs informed observations were covered in depth. (I said the same thing you did way back when.) There is an archive of all posts on the bee list which is an excellent resource to find what has happened before and also a lot of information on all sorts of things related to beekeeping. I use it often to answer questions I have on some practices. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/archives/bee-l.html Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 04:09:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Researchers Seek Varroa-Killing Fungi Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Researchers Seek Varroa-Killing Fungi Fungus Foot Baths Could Save Bees University of Warwick (UK), 7/28/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/07/researchers-seek-varroa-killing-fungi.html One of the biggest world wide threats to honey bees, the varroa mite, could soon be about to meet its nemesis. Researchers at the University of Warwick are examining naturally occurring fungi that kill the varroa mite. They are also exploring a range of ways to deliver the killer fungus throughout the hives from bee fungal foot baths to powder sprays… **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:39:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I agree with most of what you said, since it is what I said. But there is a context issue. Yoon Sik Kim wrote: > While recognizing the dynamic nature of scienceScience is not static. It > is a continuing process with things being affirmed and disproved. Most > science stands the test, but occasionally things that were thought to work > one way are shown to work another or not at alla poster here damns > science for its suggestions and hypothesis without certainty. There was no damning but the point was a prior poster did use the hypothesis as a certainty, which was pointed out by several others, not just me. Further research showed otherwise. Which was my point. Any hypothesis needs proof to stand up. There is a difference between a hypothesis and a further experiment that disproves it, especially when that can be duplicated by others. I do realize that some will cling to the original hypothesis, but they are on tenuous ground without further research. As far as certainty in science, it is mostly affirmation that is involved. But there is also some "certainty" in science, such as something as simple as NaCl and what it is and how it reacts in certain circumstances. I look at my CRC Handbook of Physics and Chemistry and there is a lot of "certainty" found in its pages. It is when you go, with something as simple as salt, from the macro world (of controlled conditions) to the micro world that uncertainties arise. As far as CCD. I probably missed it, but I have not seen any certainty as to its cause on this list. There are many camps but even they are circumspect. However, there are camps where the cause has been identified, which was the reason for my original post, that neonicotinoids were identified in a magazine article as the cause of CCD. No science, just opinion and the carryover from beekeepers who said it was the culprit. I will give you the neonicotinoids in the corn field. I was wrong. Bad example and less thought. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 04:57:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Researcher Looks at Antibacterial Activity of Argentine Honey (Spanish) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Researcher Looks at Antibacterial Activity of Argentine Honey Antibiotic Activity of Algarrobo (Prosopis spp), Eucalyptus (Eucalyptus spp) and Chilca (Baccharis spp) Monospecific Honeys Against Meticiline Resistant Bacteria of Staphylococcus aureus, Escherichia coli and Pseudomonas aeruginosa Fernando Esteban, ESPACIO APICOLA, Argentine Beekeepers' Magazine, 81 Edition (January-March 2008 in Spanish) http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/07/researcher-looks-at-antibacterial.html En función de los resultados obtenidos se puede recomendar el reemplazo del azúcar de mesa por estas mieles, en la preparación de apósitos para llagas, escaras o heridas de la piel, particularmente por su comportamiento frente a Staphylococcus aureus una de las principales y más resistentes bacterias que afectan las heridas cutáneas (además de su presencia en infecciones de las mucosas del tracto respiratorio) en consonancia con la experiencia publicada por Kirsten Traynor en el American Bee Journal. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:27:26 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: surprise wild bumblebees affected by managed bumblebees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I said: >> There is no doubt that these bumblebees are >> extinct due solely to the efforts of the >> "native pollinator" lobby Gavin said: > Can I express some doubt?! > That argument seems a little contrived. > Here are some possible culprits: > - anyone who ever converted the wild lands... > - anyone who built on those lands > - anyone who contributed to a subtle change in climate > - anyone spraying (oops, sorry!) pesticides... While it is true that these factors are valid contributors to the bumblebee problems in the >> UK <<, none of the above had any impact at all on the bumblebee species at issue in the US. They were doing fine and living in substantial numbers far away from the agricultural areas until what you called the "coup de grace", and far away from the effects of everything you listed, (except for the global warming, which doesn't have any impact on bees, which are happy in a wide range of climates and temperature ranges). > the final coup de grace... permitting, encouraging, > organizing and delivering pathogen-infested imported > commercial bumble bees There was no problem with these specific species in the US until the arrival of the "pathogen-infested imported commercial bumble bees". Read the reports I cited, and read the news reports. > Like CCD in honeybees, the loss of these species (something > that I greatly regret) is likely to be multi-factorial and > complex. In the UK, you have a different set of problems, as you have different bumblebees, and your bumblebees have been exposed to the European version of bumblebee Nosema for quite some time. But in the US, It was a simple tale of a single pathogen being imported across an ocean that would have otherwise been an insurmountable barrier, and a pathogen species jump that simply would not had happened if not for the high-density raising of the native US species of bumblebees in the same area where they had a nosema problem in the high-density raising of their European species of bumblebees that they sold elsewhere. It was a "toxic spill". A for profit-company shipped a contaminated product to the US, and let it "spill" all over, thereby contaminating the landscape. While one could blame the greenhouse owners for allowing the imported bumblebees to escape, it should be obvious that there is no such thing as perfect containment in a greenhouse. APHIS should have looked at a few working greenhouses before allowing the imports, and this "Andromeda Zone For Bumblebees" could have been avoided. Or, to further simplify, it was all about greed on the part of companies who sell bumblebees, combined with a childlike Disneyfied misunderstanding on the part of the "alternative pollinator" crowd of the risks of uninspected imports and their stubborn insistence that NATIVE species of bumblebees be used in agriculture. > It is also likely to be something we should all learn from, Yes! And the lesson is that biosecurity is the only part of "homeland security" we need to fund and enhance. I travel internationally quite a bit, and I get far more scrutiny than any of these imports would ever get. > and even gives reason to build bridges and collaborate with > people interested in conserving Apidae. Sure, but here in the US, we have massive corporate interests who pose as "farmers", but are better-described as "agribusiness". First, you have to wrap your head around just how much money is in play: The UK's total land area is about 243,000 square kilometers (59,520,000 acres). The current amount of active farmland in the US is 938,280,000 acres. So the US farms the equivalent of 15 UKs, and another 22 UKs are not farmed. Several of these UK-equivalent land masses are owned and/or controlled by single corporate entities, so the "solutions" being offered to the "pollinator problem" are influenced by the usual lobbying, pushed by the greed of the MBAs with spreadsheets that have been screwing everything up ever since VisiCalc came out for the Apple II. The "native pollinator" and "environmentalist" camps are chock full of people who do no homework, and sadly lack the judgment to tell fact from fiction (as we have seen so often in connection with CCD), so they are easy to convince that a fairy story about "Pollinator Corridors" and "Continuous Linear Habitats" or "Greenways" will somehow save the pollinators. What happens is that the large landowners get to enjoy tax credits and other financial incentives for "setting aside" land that they cannot farm anyway. The land set aside is little more than wasteland, and is far too close to the pesticide-soaked monocultures to be of any actual value as pollinator habitat. The environmentalists would be surprised to know that this concept of "set-aside land" was floated more than once to the USDA, and firmly rejected in scientific review as being of little actual practical value to the pollinators and environment. But like I said, these innocents do not do their homework, so they are easy to enlist as unwitting foot soldiers in the march towards profit and the appearance of being "green" on the part of the massive agribusiness interests that control both the bulk of US farmland, and the US "environmental movement". **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:21:10 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter quoted: > "The primary cause of the failure of colonies to build > up in the apiaries from which the 1977 HRDD stock came > seems to be disease... From our data we can offer no > support for the genetic hypothesis of DD." (From "Disappearing Disease: III. A comparison of seven different stocks of the honey bee" by Kulincevic, Rothenbuhler, and Rinderer, June 1984) There have been multiple events that were given the misleading and unhelpful label "Disappearing Disease" or "Dwindling Disease", but I doubt that any two events had the same exact cause. (The Penn State team put an article in Bee Culture a while ago that asked the question: "Colony Collapse Disorder: Have We Seen This Before?" http://tinyurl.com/6bwa3c ...but did not actually answer that question one way or the other. At least they listed most of the prior "events" that might have been confused with "CCD" by the press.) The quote from Rothenbuhler, et al was a good-faith statement from men of good character, but the curious wording was intended to say "no, not OUR fault THIS time". The context for these strangely-worded statements and surprisingly defensive assertions is a little-known tale of beekeeping intrigue that can now be told, as the villains of the tale can no longer extract revenge from anyone. Bill Wilson of the USDA tracked an earlier 1970s outbreak of "disappearing disease" to the door of the USDA Baton Rouge Bee Lab, where AHB genetics had been crossed with the hybrids of the time. Prototype queens had been distributed to operations all over, and Bill saw the connection between the new queens and the problem. The USDA was embarrassed by the exposure of their own messing around with "killer bees", and rather than face the music, they sidetracked him and his career in retaliation for exposing the USDA as the source of the genetic problem. Bill was right, but without the resources of a cooperative USDA, he had limited proof. The actual breeding work involving AHB likely posed little or no risk of having the same cataclysmic outcome as the work in South America that resulted in the "release" of AHB, but the USDA did not want the bad press inherent in any whisper that they were working with any AHB genetics at all. Beekeepers don't seem to realize that what appears to them to be a game or a mere series of arguments is played for keeps. Entire careers, Bill Wilson's included, have been sacrificed in an effort to serve the interests of beekeepers. Science is a full-body contact sport, and sometimes people cheat, draw fouls, flopp like Bill Laimbeer of the Pistons, and slide into 3rd base with their cleats in the air. In that specific case, the USDA itself treated one of its own like an expendable pawn. I offer a toast to Bill Wilson at every large beekeeper event, and hope that others do the same. We have to drink to Bill Wilson, as no one else is brave enough to do so, and it is our obligation to grant immortality to those who were brushed aside and swept under the rug along with the truths they found. The toast is simple - "Bill Wilson was RIGHT, and everyone knew he was right!" **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:23:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Syntax In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10807272042h5e141178sa8876166ed76b781@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison quotes: "What we do not know is so vast it makes what we do know seem absurd" "beekeeping is both simple and complicated at the same time" **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:30:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Joel_Klose?= Subject: Re: Local honey producer expands beyond farmers' markets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, First off thanks to everyone for a great deal of useful information daily. I do review information and find it useful in the management of our operation! I read this article with a great deal of intrest. At first glance I thought it was great to see a beekeeper moving ahead full steam. Makes me think I'm not completely nuts for choosing this profession. As I reread it though I see that if I'm interpreting the information correctly Round Rock is producing 1.5 million of income from 1300 hives of non-chemically treated hives. This means that in a time when many beekeepers are having difficulties keeping hives alive Round Rocks owner is doing the impossible twice. 1) Keeping commercial #'s of hives alive without ANY chemical treatments 2) Producing around $1154 of income from each hive (1.5 mill/ 1300) These numbers don't add up for me, perhaps someone else can show me the math? Are other commercial Beeks out there seeing this type of income per hive and if so from what sources. We are not doing any pollination which may be our shortfall. I just don't enjoy moving bees any more than I absolutey have to. We do produce nucs, honey, pollen and propolis, make hand cream, soap, tincture, lip balm etc., basically using everything but the buzz. (and I'm working on that) If we can gross $500/ hive a year (in good years) we think that's pretty good. With 200 hives if we could produce 230K, the equal to Round Rocks avg a year, I'd be a pretty happy beekeeper. Best Regards, Joel **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:00:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Bee Thrive In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > The company has been trying to sell swamp water extracts for anything and everything I'm also skeptical of overblown claims for any product. However, the company forwarded me independent research as to the efficacy of humic and fulvic acids when used as a livestock feed additive. A few beekeepers tried the product, and their anecdotal feedback encouraged the company to consider conducting an actual controlled trial on bees, which is why they contacted me. I have made clear to the company that I feel that they do not yet have sufficient evidence to promote the product to beekeepers. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:01:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Researchers Seek Varroa-Killing Fungi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit C Hooper wrote: > Fungus Foot Baths Could Save Bees > University of Warwick (UK), 7/28/2008 > http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/07/researchers-seek-varroa-killing-fungi.html For UK Midlands viewers there will be an item on Midlands Today at 6.30pm tonight. Dr David Chandler and I were interviewed this morning at HRI Wellesbourne. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:49:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Baton Rouge AHB ( was neonicotinoids In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA3414B9E34@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Baton Rouge AHB ( was neonicotinoids Hello Jim & All,=20 Wow that's quite a tale Jim. Tom Clancy could not have done better.=20 The subject has been discussed before on BEE-L and is in the = archives.=20 I have spoke directly with both Steve Tabor & Gary Reynolds on the = subject=20 as both were at the lab at the time. They told me quite a different = tale. =20 beekeeping history:=20 Dr. Kerr was the first to discover a way to ship semen. Also Kerr=20 was a geneticist and he shipped in a AHB gene he named the Y gene (If = i=20 remember the letter from my talks with the above researchers about = the=20 project) to Baton Rouge.=20 He had inbred to isolate the Y gene . A process which has been done = by=20 Harbo and others for years. By using the process you can eliminate the = aggressive genes in AHB. The process which SMR ^ VSH queens are = produced.=20 In fact many say the Midnight and Starline queen programs had thier = start=20 with methods learned from Dr. Kerr.=20 The project was halted when Steve went on vacation and his higher up = had=20 Gary R. depopulate ALL the experiment hives.=20 Jim is correct in a way as rumors about what was going on made the = project=20 unpopular with higher up at Baton Rouge which did not understand the=20 project. Baton Rouge USDA is not all about bees.=20 Steve Tabor verified what Gary R. told me. Steve was surprised when he = returned from vacation and found a USDA_ARS ( non bee lab person) had=20 ordered the project eliminated. Steve was never consulted on the = decision.=20 The beekeeper rumor mill had doomed the project which in my opinion = was=20 decades ahead of the time period. Many beeks it seems are quick to buy = into=20 rumors instead of the actual facts of the story.=20 Remember I was actively keeping bees at the time. I have done = business with=20 Gary Reynolds for decades. After he left the USDA_ARS he became a=20 commercial=20 beek in my area. We are close friends and are both members=20 of the Kansas Honey Producers. Gary was president of the Midwest = Honey=20 producers for around two decades. The largest group for which ONLY=20 commercial beeks can belong. Hobby ^ sideline not allowed.=20 bob=20 ****************************************************=20 * General Information About BEE-L is available at: *=20 * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm *=20 ****************************************************=20 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:08:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will affirm that many organic beekeepers have lost colonies with ccd symptoms. One of the first cases was from a NE organic beekeeper, and I've many more in our databases, with an increase in the 2nd year of this disorder. However, I am not going to say "WHO". If we divulge names, we've compromised confidentiality. Only way we get most beekeepers to cooperate, answer questions about what chemicals they do or do not use, what the true level of loss was is to protect their information. No one wants to be known as the source of CCD, a threat to a neighbor, or take a financial loss because he/she can't sell queens, packages, or rent colonies to customers who want good/healthy bees. I start giving out names, many beekeepers will stop cooperating. We view these results like medical records - the individual in entitled to privacy. Jerry **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:13:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob is playing word games. No one has said that CCD might not be related to Nosema ceranae. CCD is a symptom. Ceranae is a pathogen. The Spanish reports of ceranae symptoms don't match all of the CCD symptoms, but I've seen CCD, and I've seen the Nosema ceranae symptoms exactly as reported by the Spanish - the two are similar, but not the same. I've confirmed that the microsporidian was in astonishingly high levels in the colonies with the Spanish symptoms. Personally, I think Nosema ceranae has a role to play in CCD, maybe similar to the relationship of mites and viruses. So, Bob's word games are trying to say that CCD is not the disorder caused by Nosema ceranae. I'm not ready to say that - it may/may not be. Jerry **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:59:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: ACD - (was Neonicotinoids, science and CCD) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can argue the terms, but CCD symptoms are reported by beekeepers with only one colony, as well as those with hundreds, thousands, or even tens of thousands. Now, I have more confidence in reports of experienced beekeepers than in those who say, this is my first hive. Nevertheless, we've heard from all sizes and all kinds of beekeepers, from small to huge, those who migrate and those who don't, in all parts of the country. We did not update the map this year, but reports over the past months have filled in nearly every state. The only states not reporting are those with a bee inspector who insists that their state does NOT have CCD and where most of the beekeepers are very small operations. My guess, the small operations believe their inspectors. In states with large operations, regardless of the state's position, we hear from or get samples from large, experienced operations that make up their own minds. **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:39:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD and I am not goring to start another thread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: Jerry was there and noted the symptoms, so if you are saying he >is incorrect in his diagnosis, then you have an issue with someone who >was there and saw it against an opinion. You misunderstood what I was commenting on. Nothing to do with Jerry. I was commenting on the quote by Benson: > If memory serves someone requested documentation of an > organic beekeeper losing hives to CCD. Now, how do you obtain this documentation? Who is qualified and who is not? The thread says science and CCD and yet, much of the CCD colony statistics in the USA been done by persons that would perhaps never come close to meeting the scientific qualification set forth as a requirement by some on this list. The symptoms of CCD ambiguous as they may be, are compiled, and a diagnosis is made. There are no lab tests that will confirm CCD, and symptoms vary from area to area, so a diagnosis is therefore based much on assumption which increases the likelihood of error. Thats all I have to say, Ill await my scolding. Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:25:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, > Only way we get most beekeepers to cooperate, answer > questions about what chemicals they do or do not use, what the true > level of loss was > is to protect their information. Giving out information like whether chemicals were or were not used in an organic beekeeping community is not like names were named. In other words, of the organic beekeepers that were surveyed concerning CCD, what percent used treatments verses those that did not. This information may be useful. God Bless, Keith Malone **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 09:41:42 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: Syntax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Juanse, In Australian parlance there is a solution....."A cup of tea, a Bex, and a good lie down." http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=340661 Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************