From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:04:41 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.0 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, ADVANCE_FEE_3,AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34130485FD for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3YWP017258 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0807E" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 155934 Lines: 3478 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:20:50 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Semen from Turkey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/news/cobeyturkeytrip.html -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 06:10:55 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Semen from Turkey In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10807282020x39fef903nae3228828bad2d9b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline VHVya2V5IHJpc2tzIGJlaW5nIGxlZnQgd2l0aG91dCBob25leQoKICBBIG5ldyByZXBvcnQgYnkg YW4gZW52aXJvbm1lbnRhbCBmb3VuZGF0aW9uIHJldmVhbGVkIHRoYXQgYmVlIGNvbG9uaWVzIGlu ClR1cmtleSBoYXZlIGhhbHZlZCBpbiBudW1iZXIgZHVlIHRvIHBvb3IgYmVla2VlcGluZyBwcmFj dGljZXMgYW5kIGNsaW1hdGUKY2hhbmdlLCBkYWlseSBSYWRpa2FsIHJlcG9ydGVkIHllc3RlcmRh eS4KCiAgQWNjb3JkaW5nIHRvIHRoZSogVHVya2lzaCBGb3VuZGF0aW9uIGZvciBDb21iYXRpbmcg RXJvc2lvbiwgZm9yClJlZm9yZXN0YXRpb24gYW5kIHRoZSBQcm90ZWN0aW9uIG9mIE5hdHVyYWwg SGFiaXRhdHMsIG9yICpURU1BLCByZXBvcnQgb24KYmVla2VlcGluZywgbWFzcyBleHRpbmN0aW9u IG9mIGJlZXMgaGFzIGJlZW4gb2NjdXJyaW5nIGZvciB0aGUgcGFzdCB0d28KeWVhcnMuIEZpcnN0 LCAzMiwwMDAgYmVlIGNvbG9uaWVzIGRpZWQgaW4gSGF0YXkgaW4gMjAwNy4gTGF0ZXIsIGluIEFk /XlhbWFuLApBcmRhaGFuIGFuZCBBbmthcmEsIHRoZSBiZWUgcG9wdWxhdGlvbiBkZWNsaW5lZCBi eSBtb3JlIHRoYW4gNTAgcGVyY2VudC4KCiAgVGhlIHJlY2VudCBkcm91Z2h0IHRocm91Z2hvdXQg dGhlIGNvdW50cnkgaGFzIGFsc28gbmVnYXRpdmVseSBhZmZlY3RlZApiZWVrZWVwaW5nLiBJbiAy MDA2LCB0aGUgZmxvcmEgYmVlcyBmZWVkIG9uIGZyb3plIGR1ZSB0byBjb2xkIHdlYXRoZXIuIFRo ZQpjb2xvbmllcyB3ZXJlIHVuYWJsZSB0byBjdWx0aXZhdGUgbmV3IGJlZSBzdHJhaW5zLiBUaGVy ZWZvcmUsIHRoZXkgZ290IHdlYWsKYW5kIHdlcmUgZXh0ZXJtaW5hdGVkLgoKICBBY2NvcmRpbmcg dG8gcmVzZWFyY2ggYnkgdGhlIFNjaWVudGlmaWMgYW5kIFRlY2hub2xvZ2ljYWwgUmVzZWFyY2gg Q291bmNpbApvZiBUdXJrZXksIG9yIFTcQklUQUssIEFtZXJpY2FuIEZvdWxicm9vZCBkaXNlYXNl IGhhcyBiZWVuIGRldGVjdGVkIGFtb25nCnRoZSBzcGVjaWVzIGluIEJpdGxpcywgRGl5YXJiYWv9 ciBhbmQgSGF0YXkuIEV1cm9wZWFuIFVuaW9uIHJlZ3VsYXRpb25zIHNheQp0aGUgY29sb25pZXMg aGF2aW5nIHRoaXMgZGlzZWFzZSBoYXZlIHRvIGJlIGluY2luZXJhdGVkLiBBbHRob3VnaCBUdXJr ZXkgaGFzCnNpZ25lZCB0aGVzZSByZWd1bGF0aW9ucywgaW5jaW5lcmF0aW9uIGhhcyBub3QgdGFr ZW4gcGxhY2UgeWV0LCBhY2NvcmRpbmcgdG8KVEVNQS4KCiAgVHVya2V5IGhhcyA0LjUgbWlsbGlv biBiZWUgY29sb25pZXMgd2hpY2ggcHJvZHVjZSA1MC02MCwwMDAgdG9ucyBvZiBob25leQpwZXIg eWVhci4gSG93ZXZlciwgdGhpcyBhbW91bnQgd2FzIGhhbHZlZCBpbiAyMDA3IGFuZCBUdXJrZXkg ZW5kZWQgdXAgaW4gYQpwb3NpdGlvbiB3aGVyZSBpdCBoYWQgdG8gaW1wb3J0IGhvbmV5LgoKaHR0 cDovL3d3dy50dXJraXNoZGFpbHluZXdzLmNvbS50ci9hcnRpY2xlLnBocD9lbmV3c2lkPTExMDc1 NQoKCgoKCk9uIFR1ZSwgSnVsIDI5LCAyMDA4IGF0IDU6MjAgQU0sIEp1YW5zZSBCYXJyb3MgPGp1 YW5zZWFwaUBnbWFpbC5jb20+IHdyb3RlOgoKPiBodHRwOi8vZW50b21vbG9neS51Y2RhdmlzLmVk dS9uZXdzL2NvYmV5dHVya2V5dHJpcC5odG1sCj4KPgo+Cj4gLS0KPiBKdWFuc2UgQmFycm9zIEou Cj4gQVBJWlVSIFMuQS4KPiBDYXJyZXJhIDY5NQo+IEdvcmJlYSAtIENISUxFCj4gKzU2LTQ1LTI3 MTY5Mwo+IDA4LTM2MTMzMTAKPiBodHRwOi8vYXBpYXJhdWNhbmlhLmJsb2dzcG90LmNvbS8KPiBq dWFuc2VhcGlAZ21haWwuY29tCj4KPgoKCi0tIApKdWFuc2UgQmFycm9zIEouCkFQSVpVUiBTLkEu CkNhcnJlcmEgNjk1CkdvcmJlYSAtIENISUxFCis1Ni00NS0yNzE2OTMKMDgtMzYxMzMxMApodHRw Oi8vYXBpYXJhdWNhbmlhLmJsb2dzcG90LmNvbS8KanVhbnNlYXBpQGdtYWlsLmNvbQo= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:38:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My reply about organic beekeepers and CCD was to the person who asked "WHO are the organic beekeepers", not what percentage used chemicals. The challenge was to NAME beekeepers. As per who used what chemicals and how, that's a full treatise unto itself. It ranges from no chemicals, to 'organically accepted chemicals', to so called soft chemicals -- from label approved chemicals, to everything ever mentioned on this list, and yet another 20 or so chemicals that don't appear in any of Bee-L discussions. And don't ask me for the list, some of the things were frightening. However, none of the beekeepers chemical treatments correlated with CCD, so not much sense stirring up everyone. My comment, not using chemicals is admirable, but it doesn't magically protect your bees from CCD. My biggest surprise, why more beekeepers don't have more problems with chemical toxicity, since the amounts, kinds, and mixtures of beekeeper treatments was down right amazing. The old Pogo refrain " We have met the enemy and he is us" certainly applies to some of the junk being dumped into beehives by beekeepers. Downright lucky that more bees aren't lost due to beekeeper over-dosing, home brews, and MIXTURES. And, the internet does not help. Used to be, there was the local font of all information who recommended things like illegal chemicals and influenced their neighbors. Now, someone in one part of the world may start a run on using something in any other place, with no testing, nor knowledge of outcome. Jerry **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:58:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: CCD and Bee Genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Fischer gave a good summary of this, and the lack of discussion by Bee-L indicates that the key points went right past most people on Bee-L. When I first started in bee research, I heard rumors of Disappearing Disease and a connection to AHB. Dr. Bill Wilson used to run the USDA bee lab in Laramie, Wyoming. One spring, MT, Dakota, and other northern beekeepers discovered a high incidence of bee loss. Symptoms, empty boxes, no bees. Bill found that many of these beekeepers had bees that could be traced back to genetic lines of bees distributed from the Baton Rouge lab. Bill thought CCD, aka Disappearing Disease, might be a genetic defect. Simply stated, these bees had AHB genes, and he suspected that they couldn't survive the cold winters. When things got tough, the bees did what AHB bees do, they left. Bad choice in a northern state with a winter climate. But USDA at the time wouldn't own up to the introduction. When CCD showed up, I again discussed this topic with Bill. Although he's hesitant to discuss the issues, Jim is correct, his discovery and trace back to Baton Rouge almost ended his career with USDA. Many of us suspect the re-location to Weslaco was the USDA version of sending him to Siberia. Bill did tell me that there is a mid-70s issue of ABJ that has two articles, one by Steve Tabor, the other by Harry Laidlaw. The two of them brought in AHB sperm from Brazil, introduced it into breeding lines. After they both retired, Bill says he talked these two bee specialists into describing what they did. My library does not have ABJ, and I haven't run these to ground. Maybe Peter Borst or some other person could run these to ground and post them. I should also note that the first wide spread, regional outbreaks of CCD occurred in LA and TX - the areas where breeders working with the Baton Rouge lab are located. Certainly makes one wonder. I also suggest that a good investigative reporter get the full story from Bill before it is lost to history. Bottom line, AHB genetics were apparently introduced to the U.S. long before the official, reported AHB introduction, and it was done by well known, U.S. bee researchers. Took me several years to run this story to ground. Finally, Bill suspected a genetic defect - but now that we know about vertical transmission, one might ask, could a virus have been introduced with the sperm? Maybe the right connection, wrong explanation? Regardless, haven't seen any serious genetic work done concerning CCD and bee lines, especially AHB. Jerry **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:40:13 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Baton Rouge AHB ( was neonicotinoids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have spoke directly with both Steve Tabor & > Gary Reynolds on the subject as both were at the > lab at the time. They told me quite a different tale. Yes, there are many people who would rather not admit to have participated in an effort that caused such a ruckus. The essential point glossed over by Bob has to do with the wide distribution of the queens for "trials", and the resulting cases of "Disappearing Disease" in those operations. I don't know of anyone who were worried about the "AHB" factor, except for the higher-ups at USDA who wanted to deep-six the whole deal when Bill Wilson started asking some pointed questions about the specific "African" genetics that seemed to be the root cause of that specific outbreak of "Disappearing Disease". As Bob implied, the use of very specific genetic techniques and the importation of semen rather than live AHB queens made the effort "mostly harmless" to everyone at the time, except, it seemed, the USDA "suits". But note that no one at Baton Rouge suffered any career impact at all as a result of the incident. Only Bill Wilson paid for his scientific curiosity with his career path, no matter if the science was right, wrong, or indeterminate. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:35:21 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: de roeck ghislain Subject: Neonicotinoids killed bees in Italy last spring. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No tales, but facts on the Italian bee crash last spring: State: Piémont: http://www.mieliditalia.it/n_piemonte_killer.htm States: Lomardie and Veneto: http://www.mieliditalia.it/n_prove_accumulano.htm State: Emilia Romagna: Not yet available Individual analyses: http://www.mieliditalia.it/download/analisi01.pdf Source: Francesco Panella [frapane@tin.it], Chairman Unione Nazionale Associazioni Apicoltori Italiani Kind regards, Ghislain De Roeck Geraardsbergen, Belgium. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:46:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: CCD and Bee Genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jerry wrote: > the lack of discussion by Bee-L indicates that the key points went right past most people on Bee-L. Hmm. Maybe it took some time to digest. The story of Bill Wilson is certainly chastening. However, one must separate the two issues: Bill may have been sidetracked for suggesting that Disappearing Disease might be related to work done by the USDA, but that hardly proves a genetic cause for Disappearing Disease. No evidence has been found to support the idea that northern honey bee populations are either polluted by African genes or that their genetic base has been precipitously narrowed, causing widespread collapse. Early on Steve Sheppard surveyed the US bee population to establish the genetic makeup of the bees BEFORE the South American strain became ubiquitous. He found a lot of African derived genetic material already here, but he points out that the types of tests cannot easily distinguish WHERE in Africa they came from. In fact, they could be traced back to Spain. Finally, as many have pointed out, widespread die-offs were reported in the 1800s, and every few decades ever since. Perhaps the fact that so many people were trying to make a living from bees made the huge fluctuations much more critical than they would have been otherwise. After all, honey keeps and if you got a good year yo had enough honey to last through several bad ones. Bees might regularly die off, but nature has adequately provided for that by giving them the urge to swarm. Steve Sheppard writes: > Over 25% of the Africanized colonies from Argentina expressed a composite haplotype (ALBA), that was found in north African honey bees, but not in sub-Saharan A. m. scutellata. This raises the possibility that the proportion of haplotypes reported to originate from A. m. scutellata may have been overestimated in other New World populations, as well. If true, this could partially explain discrepancies among studies based on allozyme, morphological and mtDNA data. > In our limited sampling of Old World populations, we found the haplotype (ALBA) only in colonies of the subspecies A. m. intermissa from Morocco. However, given that several studies report clinal variation or evidence of hybridization between the bees of North Africa and Spain, the possibility exists that the ALBA pattern arrived in Argentina with early Spanish settlers. > Further studies of Africanized honey bee mtDNA should be cognizant of the potential for erroneous assignment of subspecific parental origins, unless a combination of appropriate tests are used. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:42:26 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: CCD and Bee Genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: > No evidence has been found to support the idea > that northern honey bee populations are either > polluted by African genes or that their genetic > base has been precipitously narrowed, causing > widespread collapse. This is easy to explain if one realizes that the genetics in question were self-defeating, and would prompt the "extinction" of that hybrid line quickly. No evidence has been found in CURRENT stocks of bees, true. But a very high correlation between the USDA-bred bees and "disappearing disease" in that SPECIFIC year was found. High enough for a scientist to buck his own chain of command, going multiple pay-grades above his own. And remember, Bill Wilson wasn't just a rank-and file employee of the USDA, he ran a lab. He clearly had proven his expertise, judgment, and office-politics skills, or he would not have been given the post. There must have been some VERY compelling evidence to prompt him to act in such a "career-suicide" manner. So, I agree that these stocks did not survive long due to the exact defect that caused the "disappearing disease" symptoms, but I don't think that looking after-the-fact at something that was clearly the subject of a "cover up" is going to result in much evidence of the sort that would be "conclusive". > Finally, as many have pointed out, widespread > die-offs were reported in the 1800s, and every > few decades ever since. And the take-away here is that the die-offs have had different causes, and were poorly described, documented, and very poorly compared after the fact. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:22:30 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: CCD and Bee Genetics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jerry: Bill found that many of these beekeepers had bees that > could be traced back > to genetic lines of bees distributed from the Baton Rouge > lab. Reply: Yes, I have copies of much of this from when I used to have contract working with USDA Western Region on tech exchange of information. But it is not AHB related......and is why Ed and I ended up doing the world map we did plotting cell size and climatic zones and bees by race/strain in each zone. This phenonoma happens every so many years with weather shifts that run in cycles.......and it is genetically linked in a way. You see there are bees of the topics and bees of temperate zones and this fact has been known for centuries. The bees react like other animals with transitioning into and out of areas during times of climatic changes, just like other animals migrate naturally following nature! This was noted by researches early on, and used to talk about it with other researchers back in the 1980s........Simply put bees of the warmer climates fall back, like disappear, leave, go home, cannot hang out side their normal areas in times of dearth, etc or especially stressed times! This mean in bad year bees in say N. America to the yellower side with genetics will not winter as well as darker races strains of honeybees and NAME by man means nothing. Yellow is of tropic, and darker hues of mixing like with Italian, but still of warmer areas like mediterranean, and darker yet like brown to black of the more nothern climates. The bees simply adjust accordingly....so it you live further north and have want pretty yellow bees then what can I say, for they do not technically belong there with climatic transitioning in hard years............ Nothing new! and Bill Wilson noticed the yellower falling back.......Early on even I was told by Baton Rouge and still have letter........."Who would want those squichy small darker bees?" ........but smaller and darker(even the darker orange/brownish) are more bees of cooler climates....... So if beekeepers want the pretty bright yellow ones, and many artificially done to produce them..........then let the buyer beware! Especially if buying bees that do not fit ones locality and this used to be taught early on by Benson, and Br Adam, Ruttner and others........though no longer now............... Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:05:35 +0000 Reply-To: hpwilmerding@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harold P Wilmerding Subject: Re: Researcher Looks at Antibacterial Activity of Argentine Honey (Spanish) In-Reply-To: <20080728045754.84d281a5f2f7df0ef38485a84124037d.89a283dd63.wbe@email.secureserver.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: C Hooper Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 04:57:54 To: Subject: [BEE-L] Researcher Looks at Antibacterial Activity of Argentine Honey (Spanish) Researcher Looks at Antibacterial Activity of Argentine Honey Antibiotic Activity of Algarrobo (Prosopis spp), Eucalyptus (Eucalyptus spp) and Chilca (Baccharis spp) Monospecific Honeys Against Meticiline Resistant Bacteria of Staphylococcus aureus, Escherichia coli and Pseudomonas aeruginosa Fernando Esteban, ESPACIO APICOLA, Argentine Beekeepers' Magazine, 81 Edition (January-March 2008 in Spanish) http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/07/researcher-looks-at-antibacterial.html En función de los resultados obtenidos se puede recomendar el reemplazo del azúcar de mesa por estas mieles, en la preparación de apósitos para llagas, escaras o heridas de la piel, particularmente por su comportamiento frente a Staphylococcus aureus una de las principales y más resistentes bacterias que afectan las heridas cutáneas (además de su presencia en infecciones de las mucosas del tracto respiratorio) en consonancia con la experiencia publicada por Kirsten Traynor en el American Bee Journal. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:04:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Disappearing Disease, Dwindling Disease, Definitions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adding to the issues - it always pays to read the original sources. We've heard that Dwindling Disease and Disappearing Disease date back to the turn of the century. I recently pulled my 1945 ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture from the shelf and re-read the disease section. And, its interesting. Spring Dwindling disease was not considered to be the same as Disappearing Disease. It was defined as a malady affecting adult bees. Specifically "Unless there has been a very severe winter, spring dwindling is the result of ignorant or careless management". It is often accompanied by dysentery. Disappearing Disease is described as a malady similar to Acarapis disease. It was distinguished from Acarapis by two symptoms: 1) Unlike Acarapis disease, Disappearing Disease "disappears in from ten days to two weeks". Acarapis disease will "continue indefinitely until the colony succombs". 2) In Acarapis disease, sick bees with disjointed wings "in front of the hive run like crickets, apparently in great distress. Clearly, the definitions have changed. Jerry **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:50:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: CCD and Bee Genetics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Bill thought CCD, aka Disappearing Disease, might be a genetic defect. Simply stated, these bees had AHB genes, and he suspected that they couldn't survive the cold winters. Or it could have been due to some other problem with the hybrid. " Our goal was to determine if the frequency of asymmetrical individuals in workers that were offspring from the crosses was greater than in pure African or European workers. ... The higher frequency of asymmetric individuals suggests that European bees and their hybrids may be less fit relative to African bees. We also found that workers from crosses between European and African queens and drones differ in overall wing size and shape that could affect wing aerodynamics and flight ability." Schneider, S. S., Leamy, L. J., Lewis, L. A., DeGrandi-Hoffman, G. The influence of hybridization between African and European honeybees, Apis mellifera, on asymmetries in wing size and shape. 2003. Evolution 57(10). pp. 2350-2364. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:45:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Disappearing Disease, Dwindling Disease, Definitions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The first published record of this disorder appeared in 1869. An anonymous author reported loss of bees which left behind hives with plenty of honey. It was speculated that the death was due to a lack of pollen, poisonous honey, or a hot summer. Subsequently, Aikin described losses in Colorado in 1891 and 1896 where large clusters disappeared or dwindled to tiny clusters with queens in May, hence the name "May disease". Investigations at the time identified various fungi with these collapses. Burnside was able to isolate, culture, and reproduce symptoms very similar to CCD with a strain of Aspergillus fungi. In three epidemics between 1905 and 1919, 90% of the honey bee colonies on the Island of Wight in the United Kingdom died. Bees afflicted with this disorder could not fly, but crawled from the entrance. Researchers disagreed as to the cause of this affliction. Some concluded that the losses were due to acarine disease or the honey bee tracheal mite, Acarapis woodi. Others believed that starvation was the cause of the losses]; while still others thought Nosema disease caused the high losses . Some affected beekeepers over the years have blamed their losses on the so-called "Isle of Wight disease" whenever they could not find another cause Colony Collapse Disorder: Have We Seen This Before? Robyn M. Underwood and Dennis vanEngelsdorp **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:58:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: CCD and Bee Genetics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Or it could have been due to some other problem with the hybrid. Right. I have long thought that the African and European bees may be so distantly related that they *almost* constitute different species. Obviously, speciation occurred in the case of Apis cerana. Someday we may see a reclassification into Asian, European *and* African species. Why? Because it has been shown that hybrids between AHB and EHB, if and when they occur, fail to thrive. The same is true for many other species crosses. Heterosis can be positive or profoundly negative. It is entirely plausible that African crosses were tested in the north and simply vanished. If the cause was some genetic weakness, like asymmetry, we may never know. Orley Taylor writes: > Gene flow between neotropical African and European bees appears to be strongly asymmetrical. African bees have maintained their genetic integrity, in spite of hybridizing with European bees, as they have expanded their distribution over the last 40 years. Low acquisition of European traits into the African population can be attributed to pre and post zygotic isolating mechanisms, i.e. mate selection, queen developmental time and hybrid dysfunction. European bees become rapidly Africanized and nearly all traces of the nuclear and mitochondrial genome disappear from the feral bee populations following the arrival of African bees. The disappearance of the European traits seems to be due to a lack of pre reproductive isolation which results in extensive mating by European queens with African drones. This is followed by a pattern of queen development which favors hybrid rather than European queens. Matings by these F1 queens to African drones results in colonies with low fi! tness and the eventual loss of European mtDNA from the population. Displacement of European bees therefore seems to be due, in part, to a type of "genetic capture" in which one form, A. m. scutellata, eliminates the others by hybridizing with their females. This type of displacement may not be uncommon, a similar case is known for sulfur butterflies. * > The genetic and population consequences of the interactions between A. m. scutellata and A. mellifera subspecies from Europe suggest that A. m. scutellata deserves the status of a semi-species. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:15:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Genetic musings In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is no reason why CCD, DD and all the others cannot be genetic, because all describe a behavior. If bees are stressed with a pathogen, they clear out. As noted, we see it often in Maine in the winter with Tracheal. Bees leave even in sub-zero weather. Something triggers that behavior, and in most all the cases so far that we have documented it, it is a pathogen. When you look at DD, fall or spring dwindling, virus infections and departure (through Varroa or Tracheal), even stress related disappearing, they are seem to be triggered by something which results in the behavior. So there is a genetic factor to this behavior. It is hard wired into the bee, and maybe all honeybees. This could also explain the AHB disappearing. Something triggered it, and, I think it was Jim who said it, it could have been a virus. It had less to do with the race of bee than the thing that triggered it. I wonder if the symptoms of CCD are nothing more than a degree or subset of that behavior. (It is interesting that there is another set for winter CCD which is not the same as summer CCD.) Maybe we get the different sets of disappearing because of the degree of virulence of the pathogen or the way the pathogen works in the bee. If it stops the ability to fly, the bee crawls, if not, it flies. Disappearing can be witnessed in some cases, like crawling from the hive which has been seen with both Tracheal and Varroa infestations. It would be unlikely to be witnessed if the bee still had the ability to fly. As I noted before, the simple reason for this form of absconding my be nothing more than survival. It does make sense, especially for a dense community to segregate infected or diseased individuals to preserve the whole. From there, it is the working of the pathogen and the behavior of the bee. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:32:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:38:03 EDT, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: My biggest >surprise, why more beekeepers don't have more problems with chemical toxicity, >since the amounts, kinds, and mixtures of beekeeper treatments was down right >amazing. Would if be fair to say that we do not know what all of the symptoms of chemical toxicity look like in honeybees? So maybe you are seeing problems associated with self contamination? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:34:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Dave_Fischer?= Subject: Neonicotinoids, Science and CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear BEE-L readers, I’ve been following the discussion about neonics and CCD for some time and really appreciate the open exchange of opinions. In that spirit, I’d like to respond to some of the recent comments Bob Harrison has posted about neonics and Bayer CropScience. For those who do not know me, I’m the head of the Ecotoxicology unit in North America of Bayer CropScience. Bob wrote: “We are talking sub lethal effects. NOT LD50. ALL Bayer research is based on LD50.” Actually, Bayer’s research does address sub-lethal effects. Same is true of much non-Bayer sponsored research. Several summary papers by Bayer scientists have appeared over the years that discussed no observed adverse effect levels. These NOAELs are all based on sub-lethal effects. See Schmuck et al. (2001. Pest Manag Sci 57:225-238) and Maus et al. (2003, Bulletin of Insectology 56 (1): 51-58). Bob wrote: “They did no sub lethal research nor does Bayer labs own a single bee hive!” Bayer has a full time beekeeper on staff and owns many hives. We’ve had this in-house bee research capacity since before I joined the company 21 years ago. We thoroughly research the bee safety of every product we develop. Bob wrote: “Until you post research saying the sub lethal effects of the neonicotinoids are not causing problems then expect a response from me.” and “Show me some sub lethal research?” There are scores of relevant studies. Sub-lethal endpoints that have been evaluated include foraging behavior, fecundity, brood development, honey production, hive performance and yes, the ability of foraging bees to return to the hive (more on this one later). Sub-lethal endpoints have been evaluated in special experiments as well as in semi-field (i.e., tunnel or tent studies) and field studies. The review paper by Maus et al (2003) discussed results of 18 semi-field and 14 field studies with imidacloprid that were conducted between 1995 and 2001. The goal of these studies was to evaluate what happens when bees encounter crops treated with imidacloprid under conditions of practical use. In every case, no adverse effects were observed. Not even once. There have been many more such studies on imidacloprid and other neonics in subsequent years. For example, Elzen et al. (2004, J. Econ Entomol 97(5) 1513-1516) studied the response of bee colonies to imidacloprid treatment of melon fields and Cutler et al. (2007, J. Econ. Entomol. 100(3):765-772) studied the response of bee colonies to clothianidin seed-treated canola fields. Another bit of relevant research on “sub-lethal effects” was presented at the 2006 EurBee meeting and the abstract was posted to this list by Randy Oliver on 30 September 2007. This study tested whether exposure to imidacloprid in combination with other stressors including Varroa and Nosema ceranae, caused effects greater than those of the individuals stressors alone. Here again is the title, author list and conclusion. The full abstract is in the BEE-L archives (and also obtainable from EurBee.org). INTOXICATION OF HONEYBEES – INTERACTIONS OF PLANT PROTECTION PRODUCTS AND OTHER FACTORS. Martina Wehling, Werner von der Ohe, Dietrich Brasse, Rolf Forster “From the findings of chronic feeding tests and semi-field test it can be concluded that imidacloprid used as standard seed dressing formulation will pose no risks to honeybees.” Bob wrote: “Proving a negative? In Italy the research testing sub lethal effects was straight forward. Each level of expose caused certain problems in the bees. Sub lethal testing is not rocket science.” While Lloyd’s original point that you can never prove a negative is correct, you can test whether predictions of an underlying hypothesis are consistent with observations either generally available or generated via experimentation. The “sub-lethal” adverse effects that are commonly mentioned as being of concern are (1) disorientation (foragers not returning to the hive) and (2) suppression of the immune system with the result that the hive succumbs to common pathogens. If either of these effects occurred, one should see a dwindling of the population of imidacloprid-exposed hives. This has been looked for in >30 experiments and field studies and it has NEVER happened. That’s pretty compelling evidence this hypothesis is not correct. But what about the “Italian study” which showed bees didn’t return to the hive when feeding on syrup containing imidacloprid? I assume Bob means the study of Bortolotti et al. (Bull. of Insectology 56(1):63-67, 2003). They tested three exposure concentrations, 100, 500 and 1000 ppb and the number of bees returning was greatly reduced at the two higher test levels (500 and 1000 ppb). But these are concentrations far greater than anything bees are likely to be exposed to, and in fact it could be argued they aren’t even sub-lethal. Take the lowest published oral LD50 value for imidacloprid (3.7 ng/bee) and convert it to an equivalent food concentration (you do this by dividing by the amount of food (26 mg) bees ingest on average during acute oral tests). 3.7 ng / 26 mg = a concentration of 142 ppb. Looking at all available data, the threshold for knock-down and lethal effects in Bayer studies is about 100 ppb. With this perspective, the finding by Bortolotti et al. that bees don’t return to the hive when exposed to 500 and 1000 ppb is hardly a surprise. Nor does it support a conclusion that use of neonics will cause a problem. Bob said: “Bayer first fought French beeks by blaming varroa! At the time the French beeks had a excellent varroa control to use. Sorry Bayer.” A comprehensive multiyear study of the factors that caused the famous bee losses in France was made by the AFFSA (French Food Safety Agency) bee research unit. It concluded varroa was indeed a major factor. Their report was released in April and is accessible at http://www.afssa.fr/index.htm Search the news archives for the press release from April 2, 2008. There is a link to the full report (in French) in the press release. The AFFSA bee research team has also weighed in on the hypothesis that imidacloprid was responsible for the massive bee losses experienced by French beekeepers. Again, Randy Oliver posted an abstract on 30 Sept 2007 of this group’s presentation to the EurBee 96 meeting. You can check the BEE-L archives to get the whole thing. I’ve repeated the title, author list and main conclusion here. IMIDACLOPRID AND BEE MORTALITY IN FRANCE M. Aubert, J.-P.Faucon, A.-C. Martel and M.-P.Chauzat “We conclude that, if contamination by imidacloprid from sunflower cultures issued from treated seeds may have occurred simultaneously with a period of colony losses as described by several French bee-keepers, such occurrence has not been observed systematically, and no negative impact on bee colonies of the use of Gaucho® has been experimentally demonstrated in the field.” You may also want to read the following publication. Faucon, J.-P.; Clément, A.; Drajnudel, P.; Mathieu, L.; Ribière, M.; Martel, A.-C.; Zeggane, S.; Chauzat, M.-P.; Aubert, M. F. (2005): Experimental study on the toxicity of imidacloprid given in syrup to honey bee (Apis mellifera) colonies. Pest Management Science; 61 (2), 111-125 Bob said: “I approached Bayer about funding sub lethal testing of imidacloprid on bees but the company declined. The national organizations tried! forty grand to Penn State to settle the issue seemed like chump change but the company declined.” I find this a very hard to believe. Who did you approach at Bayer? I’ve asked around the company and nobody has any recollection of such a request. Such requests should get forwarded to me. Yours did not. I’m not impossible to reach. David Mendes has gotten through and I sent him a bunch of information. Others who post regularly to this list have talked to me on the phone as well. Also, nobody from the national organizations approach Bayer with any proposal. Bayer has never been asked to contribute funds to any of the Penn State work. When they were first getting started, they asked for analytical standards and advice on analytical methodology which we provided. Bob wrote: “So now the study is coming. A company rep said off the record that they would denounce findings that sub lethal effects hurt bees on the grounds the study was funded by beekeepers and the researchers were biased.” Any technical opinion from Bayer would come from my team. Our comments would be based on the scientific merits of the work. I find it very hard to believe a Bayer rep said what you claim. Bob wrote: “All the beekeepers in the U.S. are asking for is some label changes. Bayer will not even sit down with us and talk. Printed company positions have been sent to both groups.” Again, I checked around the company and no such meeting has been proposed to Bayer CropScience. If asked, and assuming the request came from the leadership of one of the beekeeping organizations, I’d be very surprised if Bayer wouldn’t agree to meet. We do however stand behind our labels as we have extensive research that shows our products are safe when used as directed. Maybe the label changes Bob seeks are for the product ASSAIL (acetamiprid) since the following is mentioned in a string of posts on July 9 about this product. “All beeks are asking for is a few label changes. If Bayer would meet and discuss then the tension would ease in my opinion.” Bayer does not sell ASSAIL or any other products containing acetamiprid. I do know quite a bit about this chemical however. It (along with thiacloprid) are the two neonics that are not very toxic to bees. They are 1000 times less toxic than the nitroguanidines (imidacloprid, thiamethoxam, etc.). If I was a beekeeper, rather than pressuring growers to use something else, this is a product I would be encouraging them to use. You aren’t going to find many alternative insecticide treatments safer to honey bees than ASSAIL. To comply with the label restriction, the application can be made late in the day or at night. Want more information on Neonics and honey bees? Bayer has a technical FAQ document on neonics and bees. It has much more info and citations than I have space for here. We sent it around to the CCD research community last year but I'm not sure if it was passed on. If anyone on the list wants a copy, drop me an e-mail and I’ll send it to you. Best regards to all, Dave Fischer Director, Ecotoxicology Research and Development Department Bayer CropScience LP 2 T.W. Alexander Drive PO Box 12014 Research Triangle Park, NC 27709 david.fischer@bayercropscience.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 19:02:13 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Disappearing Disease, Dwindling Disease, Definitions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Spring Dwindling disease was not considered to be the same as Disappearing > Disease. It was defined as a malady affecting adult bees. Specifically > "Unless there has been a very severe winter, spring dwindling is the result of > ignorant or careless management". It is often accompanied by dysentery. I've also read contemporary writers describe "normal spring dwindling" as the perfectly normal population drop-off when a colony is raising early brood, but not yet at a rate to replace normal bee deaths. So, the terminology could be said to be very "loose" in this area. The etymology of entomology is little more than epistemology. :) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 06:05:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Genetic musings In-Reply-To: <488F8878.3020904@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Add another thing to my thoughts. We do have yearly, observable disappearing of bees from the hive. We call it swarming. We have a large group that leaves and are left with queen, brood and bees. The thing of interest here is we are left with bees. I am sure an entomologist out there will answer this, but what signal is there to those who leave to go and to those who stay to stay? Since a colony can cast off multiple swarms, is it only the field bees, and if so why multiple swarms and that they all do not leave with the first one? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:24:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Waxworm in Brood Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waxworm in brood is often identified by a few uncapped cells that tend to form a row. When there is uncapping of brood caps of waxworm infested cells,,, Who is it doing the uncapping? In the case of waxworm in brood,,, Are waxworm responsible for uncapping the cells or the bees? I have heard some say that it is hygienic bees going after the worm, but I often still discover a worm under the cappings near the uncapped portion of cells. So this suggests to me that hygenic behavior is perhaps not responsible for the uncapping. I am going with the waxworm as the culprit. There is reason to believe it’s the worm… 1) If the bees uncap the worm, they not seem to taking the next step to remove the worm from the cell. 2) The cappings contain pollen and nourishment, this would be an irresistible meal to a waxworm, even if it does serve to expose them to danger. Who is the culprit going on this uncapping caper? Bees or worm? Best Wishes, Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:03:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Genetic musings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: >There is no reason why CCD, DD and all the others cannot be genetic, >because all describe a behavior. Right. Could be, maybe even probably is. But the genetic makeup of the bees who have exhibited this problem is extremely varied, including bees from several continents. Efforts to find excessive inbreeding in Australia and the US have failed to bear fruit in this regard. It is simply conjecture to suppose there is a genetic link to colony collapse of any sort. I don't say the solution to bee health issues is not genetic, most likely it is. A healthier bee would make all of our work easier. Even if our bees are not overly inbred, it seems obvious that more diversity would be beneficial pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:44:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:38:03 EDT, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: My biggest >surprise, why more beekeepers don't have more problems with chemical >toxicity, >since the amounts, kinds, and mixtures of beekeeper treatments was down >right >amazing. I do bee removals by using a screen wire funnel and a hive immediately under the funnel with a frame of brood with bees all the way down to eggs in the frame. The accompanying bees will keep the brood from getting chilled in cool weather and feed the larva until other bees are there to help. I had a man, who is a chemical salesman, call with bees in his house. They were going in under the soffit. He had tried to kill them a couple of times before calling. I told him since he had started trying to kill them that I would not be interested in funneling them out. I told him to continue spraying and if unsuccessful, call me about the fourth of July. He called and said he had failed with all chemicals that he had tried. Said he tried 3 that stated "harmful to honeybees". I told him to call March 1, 2009 and we would get them out. Bees are very good at defending against chemicals by several means. Lionel **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:41:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, Science and CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave & All, Why did Bayer refuse to be interviewed on film for sixty minutes and the vanishing bees documentary? Can you assure beekeepers that Midwest farmers planting imidacloprid treated seed year after year in the same field without rotation are not raising the risk levels as to the concentrations of the neonicotinoids in the plant? Fact: Just because you can not find the people I spoke with does not mean I did not speak with people at Bayer. Surely you can find the people I spoke with regarding the use of imidacloprid and two fungicides in above ground treated lumber? I called the number off the flyer. They spoke at first until they found out I was a beekeeper and then all I got was voice mail. If they record those conversations then there should be a record. I can provide the date and people if needed for the above ground treated lumber contact. I will not provide other contacts as I fear possible reprisals. I appreciate the Bayer reply Dave but in my opinion falls in line with other Bayer replies. Beekeepers are having a hard time trying to *prove a negative.* Bayer did not suggests that the die off in France (120,000 hives) was mostly caused by varroa? Europe beekeepers have been fighting varroa decades longer than the U.S. and had very good varroa control then. Also some say ( Bayer?) when those products use were suspended that the die off continued. My beekeeper contacts say the opposite. The reason they are fighting hard to keep those products use suspended. True losses are up in most of the worlds beekeeping but none in France of the magnitude of the 120.000 claimed losses at the time. Not even near half that many since at the time. Of course it depends on who you are talking to. My information comes from France commercial beekeepers. Many of the largest beekeepers in the Midwest are reporting dwindling hives which started at the time pesticide treated see corn ( planted in the same field for many years ) started teaseling. Coincidence? I do not know as I have said on BEE-L before but makes you wonder. Despite all the Bayer paid for research which you freely provide as beekeepers we have got serious concerns about some (not all) of your products. I lost family members to tobacco when tobacco companies provided research for years tobacco did not cause health problems. Fought all efforts for years to even put a health warning on packages . Finally the surgeon general of the U.S. stepped in to provide a warning on each package. Corn is at unheard of prices. Approached eight dollars a bushel at times. I took a ride in a new combine last year which has a gauge which displays the number of bushels the corn gaining into the combine harvesting in the field. I saw the gauge reach over 200 bushels an acre at times. Multiply 200 times 8 dollars times several thousand acres many of these large farmers farm. Mega bucks. As a livestock feeder corn has typically been priced slightly over a dollar a bushel for decades. I realize farmers need to feed the world ( and make big bucks doing so) and only ask for Bayer help in solving dying bees. If Bayer is not responsible then the beekeepers of the world apologize! If future research points the finger in your direction please help us by making perhaps some label changes in order to protect our bees. Unlike many of those behind me pushing me to the front armed with complaints against your products I realize the beekeepers of the world can not force Bayer to make changes. We are simply to small an industry. You are in a position Dave to help beekeepers. Surely you realize that the possibility exists the neonicotinoids can harm bees. Every researcher I have ever spoke with has said the possibility exists. The neonicotinoids are a gray area. I think if both the ABF & AHPA felt the first research needed was on the sub lethal effects of imidacloprid and funded forty thousand to Penn State this clearly displays Bob Harrison is not the only beekeeper in the U.S. which feels the neonicotinoids need looking at. Dave Mendes is the new ABF president and you have spoke with Dave. I believe Dave M. has his own concerns about some of your products but I assure you Dave M. is feeling pressure from members of the ABF. Some on BEE-L would like to paint Bob Harrison as the only beekeeper which feels the neonicotinoids need independent from Bayer testing. Luckily all that can happen to me for speaking out is some trying to make me look like a radical on a lone crusade. I have got beekeeper friends which translate problems in Europe and send to me. I follow Europe /Bayer issues with great interest. I have got one last question. Why after Bayer Europe has shown the same research papers you present here is it that beekeepers in Europe and some researchers are protesting in the streets? Thanks Dave for your reply! Sincerely, Bob Harrison "What we do not know is so vast it makes what we do know seem absurd" **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:47:46 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm reasonably sure that after 30+ years of looking at chemicals in bee hives, and pioneering ways to examine lethal and sublethal effects in real time, as well as unique sublethal end points, that we've a pretty good idea of what the symptoms of chemical toxicity look like. That's not to say we can't be surprised. Jerry **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:06:26 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, Science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr. Dave Fischer of Bayer CropScience said: > [ASSAil is] 1000 times less toxic than the > nitroguanidines (imidacloprid, thiamethoxam, > etc.). If I was a beekeeper, rather than > pressuring growers to use something else, > this is a product I would be encouraging > them to use. You aren't going to find > many alternative insecticide treatments > safer to honey bees than ASSAIL. It is not the pesticide itself that is objectionable, but instead, the way the maker plays fast and loose with the bee protection language to make it sound like there would be a time during bloom when bees would not be foraging, and confusing the matter with weasel words like "Actively Foraging", as is there was such a thing as "inactive foraging" or a bloom NOT being foraged by one pollinator or another from dawn to well past dusk. Even at 1/1000th the toxicity, the exposure levels inherent in the practices openly promoted in the ads (spraying during bloom!) would perhaps be more than 1000 times that of a pesticide applied in accordance with both the letter and the spirit of the law. Even if it could be shown that there was minimal risk, we beekeepers still have to make an example of them, as the attempt to undermine the bee protection language simply cannot be tolerated, no matter what is being peddled. Given that pesticide criminals have been perfectly willing to try to claim that foraging bees were TRESSPASSING by foraging areas where pesticides are improperly applied, as they did in the MN case, I see no reason to be even a little bit tolerant of anything less than strict compliance with bee protection language, both "in letter" and "in spirit". For the paranoid, "Fischer" is really a very common name, and lots of us have PhDs. Dave is not related to me. Any similarity of our views in regard to bees and pesticides can be blamed on the consistent bias that reality itself shows towards the arguments with data and facts behind them. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:38:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Waxworm in Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Waggle asked about waxworm (wax moth larvae to UK members) in brood. One of my selection criteria is tolerance of wax moth. Some colonies seem to allow waxmoth a free run of the brood nest, whereas others remove them. I have always thought that tolerance of wax moth is a good measure of the hygienic behaviour of a colony - and one that is easily scored by beekeepers. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:05:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Genetic musings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill wrote of swarms: > The thing of interest here is we are left with bees. I am sure an > entomologist out there will answer this, but what signal is there to those > who leave to go and to those who stay to stay? Since a colony can cast off > multiple swarms, is it only the field bees, and if so why multiple swarms > and that they all do not leave with the first one? If a queen is clipped and is lost when the colony tries to swarm, we often see a huge swarm emerge with the first virgin to emerge. It seems to me that the majority of bees leave with her because most of the brood has emerged and they have no future without her; the hive can be left virtually empty. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:08:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Genetic musings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > Even if our bees are not > overly inbred, it seems obvious that more diversity would be beneficial Is diversity the same as hybridisation? It seems to me that it is hybridisation that often causes problems. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:48:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Waxworm in Brood In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > In the case of waxworm in brood,,, >Are waxworm responsible for uncapping the cells or the bees? >I have heard some say that it is hygienic bees going after the worm, but I >often still discover a worm under the cappings near the uncapped portion >of cells. So this suggests to me that hygenic behavior is perhaps not >responsible for the uncapping. >Joe >>Some colonies seem to allow waxmoth a free run of the brood nest, whereas others remove them. I have always thought that tolerance of wax moth is a good measure of the hygienic behaviour of a colony - Peter Edwards<< It suggest to me that your colony is not very hygienic. I see tow examples in my colonies. In the first, the worm burrows along and just below the surface of the brood caps. You can see the web tunnel. Perhaps the worm has eaten the caps? There seems to be no attempt by the bees to remove the worm...until you run your hive tool along the tunnel. When the worm pops out, the bees go for it. In the second, the bees have uncapped the brood leaving what some call bald brood. The worm is often gone in this case. I would say the former is not hygienic, while the latter is. Mike **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:40:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, Science and CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Dave Fischer. & All, I am thrilled that a Bayer rep and a commercial beekeeper can discuss the issues in a beekeeping forum. BEE=L is considered the forum the worlds English speaking beekeepers read ( and post) and of late posts are in the archives in many languages. Dave Fischer said: But what about the “Italian study” which showed bees didn’t return to the hive when feeding on syrup containing imidacloprid? I assume Bob means the study of Bortolotti et al. (Bull. of Insectology 56(1):63-67, 2003). I can hardly believe you would offer this study as proof of imidacloprid not having effects on bees. This study was actually done in Florida privately with controls to confirm the Italian results. Although the study in Florida was primative and done by beekeepers many of the bees fed the 100 PPB syrup did not return to the hive. Dave said: With this perspective, the finding by Bortolotti et al. that bees don’t return to the hive when exposed to 500 and 1000 ppb is hardly a surprise. Nor does it support a conclusion that use of neonics will cause a problem. First let me say we are talking parts per billion and NOT parts per million. Big difference! This study is so simple a cave man could do it! ( saying taken from the geico TV add). A chemistry teacher made the solutions and foragers were marked at the entrance. Bortolotti study: Bortolotti simply added three amounts of imidacloprid to sucrose. Not rocket science. he could have added imidacloprid to nectar and still would be the same. Bees fed the 500-1000 parts per billion of imidacloprid in sucrose solution DISAPPEARED ALL TOGETHER. failed to return. Adult bees gone. Dave Fischer does not dispute the Bortolotti findings as to a 500-1000 PPB solution.. No bees at the hive with shakes as Jim F. has suggested before as a true neonicotinoid kill. The bees fed the 100 ppb did not show shakes either in Florida when they returned to the hive 24 hours later *if* they returned at all. Adult bees gone.with both the 500 and 1000 Parts per billion amounts . Then we get to the lowest amount of imidacloprid fed by Bortolotti in sucrose solution. 100 parts per billion . Bees fed the 100 parts per billion did return to the hive but only after 24 hours. Researchers I have spoke with (other than Bayer) seem to think 100 parts be billion is a very light dose of the neonicotinoid. Several were actually surprised about such pronounced and repeatable effects with parts per billion amounts. They would expect those type of results from parts per million. I am only a beekeeper and not on the level of expertise as Dr. Dave Fischer but one has to wonder . To sum up in my opinion: imidacloprid safe at parts per trillion. imidacloprid has some effects to LD50 at parts per billion levels Imidacloprid is a killer of bees at parts per million. Again with looking at the above figures maybe you can see why we worry about the systemic effect of imidacloprid on seeds being applied year after year in the same field. In Bayer's defense I doubt when imidacloprid was registered as a systemic that their researchers would have believed that corn and soy bean prices would go off the charts to record highs and farmers would discontinue their long time practice of crop rotation and instead sow corn after corn and beans after beans. Farmers realize that certain fields grow beans better than corn and other fields produce higher yields of corn. Beekeepers in California see little corn & beans like we do in the Midwest. Same for Florida. We had some flooding in Missouri this year and 3 million acres of corn and beans went under water along the Mississippi River. However only a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of acreage planted in those crops. Sincerely, Bob Harrison **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:16:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, Science and CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thank you for your unwavering honesty expressed in your Bayer defense. Frankly, I believe everything you say. >really appreciate the open exchange of opinions [on Bee-L regarding chemical issues]. Realizing the importance of 360 degree “transparency,” I too am convinced that you too are being transparent in you defense because you care about the bees and sustainable environment more than corporate greed and myopic stop-gap measures, and furthermore a person cannot say he enjoys something yet does not practice the same himself, right? >Actually, Bayer’s research does address sub-lethal effects. Same is true of much non-Bayer sponsored research. Several summary papers by Bayer scientists have appeared over the years that discussed no observed adverse effect levels. These NOAELs are all based on sub-lethal effects. See Schmuck et al. (2001. Pest Manag Sci 57:225-238) and Maus et al. (2003, Bulletin of Insectology 56 (1): 51-58). Of course, not. Not a single research done by tobacco industry has found its product either being harmful or addictive—till recently under mounting pressure from independent researches. >Bayer has a full time beekeeper on staff and owns many hives. We’ve had this in-house bee research capacity since before I joined the company 21 years ago. We thoroughly research the bee safety of every product we develop. Surely, you and your in-house bee research attest that you are one of us, indeed, just as tobacco industry nowadays even admits how its product is no good while pushing it deceptively and judiciously through unscrupulous under-handed advertisement to minors. They too are one of us, good guys, although they must make a sale to pay the rent. > Sub-lethal endpoints that have been evaluated include foraging behavior, fecundity. . . In every case, no adverse effects were observed. Not even once. Agreed. Not a single tobacco research has found any ill effect although the “semi-field study” was done inside a tent, a real life scenario. >Another bit of relevant research on “sub-lethal effects” was presented at the 2006 EurBee meeting and the abstract was posted to this list by Randy Oliver on 30 September 2007. This study tested whether exposure to imidacloprid in combination with other stressors including Varroa and Nosema ceranae, caused effects greater than those of the individuals stressors alone. Here again is the title, author list and conclusion. The full abstract is in the BEE-L archives (and also obtainable from EurBee.org). Ditto. Low tar cigarettes will significantly reduce the seeming ill effects, too. It is just one of the many stressors, your spouse being the number one, if you must find something else to blame. >The “sub-lethal” adverse effects that are commonly mentioned as being of concern are (1) disorientation (foragers not returning to the hive) and (2) suppression of the immune system with the result that the hive succumbs to common pathogens. If either of these effects occurred, one should see a dwindling of the population of imidacloprid-exposed hives. This has been looked for in 30 experiments and field studies and it has NEVER happened. That’s pretty compelling evidence this hypothesis is not correct. Compelling, indeed. Who/what/when/how/where/why/ did this study under whose *funding*? The study must have been transparent all around. Your strong word choice “never” makes it even more compelling and scientific and convincing. >Bayer has never been asked to contribute funds to any of the Penn State work. When they were first getting started, they asked for analytical standards and advice on analytical methodology which we provided. What a great research when an impartial corporation spoon-feeds what to look for, where to look for, and how to look at the data! I agree that all the researches should be done this way; sure, why not provide analytical methodology from an independent private research team that has no vested interest in the experiment? >We do however stand behind our labels as we have extensive research that shows our products are safe when used as directed. Sure, why change labels? The tobacco industry too stood by their labels for centuries, it has done extensive “researches,” and every one of them claimed that its products were and are safe when used as directed, and non- addictive. When the tobacco executives testified before the Congress, I believed every one of them. Yoon **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 04:39:03 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Dave Fischer (Bayer) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dave Fischer, Director, Ecotoxicology Research and Development Department Bayer CropScience LP said: "Take the lowest published oral LD50 value for imidacloprid (3.7 ng/bee) and convert it to an equivalent food concentration (you do this by dividing by the amount of food (26 mg) bees ingest on average during acute oral tests). 3.7 ng / 26 mg =3D a concentration of 142 ppb" From http://www.honeybeeworld.com/imidacloprid/canada.htm "In my initial presentation I gave you an appendix which was a paper by Bayer authors Schmuck, Schoning, Stork and Schramel , "Risk to Honeybees...." which I think will certainly be mentioned today. It says in the abstract that to bees imidacloprid has "...high oral toxicity...with values between 3.7 and 40.9 nanograms per bee, corresponding to a lethal food concentration of between 0.14 and 1.57 mg/kg." Those food concentrates translate to 140 to 1,570 parts per billion. This is a very important statement because Bayer is using it to relate an LD50 (an experimental valu= e of the dose weight per bee, which when taken orally is lethal to 50 % of th= e victims in 48 hours) to a toxic concentration in plants, and it is completely speculation. 3.7 billionths of a gram per bee only translates to 140 ppb in a plant if you dose the bees with the toxin in 26 milligrams of solution (or 20 mg of solution and apply the formula on page 235 of the paper). >From Bayer's book, The Life of the Bee: "Despite itself weighing barely 100 mg, it (a bee) is able to transport up to 75 mg of pollen and nectar. ... I= t can make 30 pollen-gathering flights daily or 150 visits to a source of nectar or 110 water collecting flights. If you use those figures, you can calculate that a forager bee can gather 10 grams of nectar or 4.5 grams of pollen in 48 hours. Now I would not be so foolish as to claim that we use those amounts. The bee does not metabolize most of the nectar it is carrying. Nor would I claim that the bee is contacting all the toxin in the pollen it is carrying (the contact LD50 according to Bayer's Schmidt is 81 nanograms/bee). Much would be in the endoplasm of the pollen and would only poison the nurse bees and the brood. But it is equally foolish for Bayer to claim that they can relate an LD50 to a ppb using a single dose of 26 mg. Their own book says that bee foragers will fly 800 km in a couple of weeks. They need to metabolize one honey stomach of nectar (75mg) for each 10 to 1= 3 km of flight, so they certainly metabolize many times more than 26 mg. in 4= 8 hours." >From a personal comunication (I can not disclose the source) when asking help about a contamination problem I had in Chile with Carbaryl (from Bayer). "You got to watch how the labs report stuff, UG/KG is parts per billion ppb= . MG/KG is parts per million. The chemical companies like to play games and try and make beekeepers do math to figure out how much carbaryl kills bees, this sentence quoted from the EPA IRED explains it much better because no math is needed. "Carbaryl is highly toxic on acute contact basis LD50 .0011mg/bee" Carbaryl is 10 times more toxic by ingestion, or .00011 mg/bee= . Converted that is 1.1ppb/bee. In my case the Lab reports the following Carbaryl contamination of my bees Sample N=B01 : 0.28 mg/Kg Sample N=B02: 0.04 mg/Kg. I ask the Lab how that figure compared with 1.1 ppb/bee and they answer: "We counted 20.000 bees per Kilo therefore would that be: 0.28/20000 =3D 0.00014 mg/bee / 1000 =3D 0.000000014 ppb/bee" Mr Fischer : Which is the correct figure? How can we trust Bayer research? How we transform from/to all this figures: ng/bee ug/bee mg/bee ppb ppm mg/kg and so on and so for? --=20 Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:33:01 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, Science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: > I will not provide other contacts as > I fear possible reprisals. Want to clarify? Do you fear for your own well-being? If not, who do you fear for? And who do you fear? > Beekeepers are having a hard time trying to > *prove a negative.* The claims you are making are claims which would be verified by a "positive", such as a consistent finding of specific pesticide residues in the MaryAnn Fraizer pesticide data, at levels above "trace levels" in something other than random cases, something that would correlate with a tangible problem. And the entire idea of "trying to prove" is a big part of the problem here. To "try to prove" is to abandon the entire premise of "science", perhaps even rationality as a whole. The data can speak for itself. No one needs to TRY to prove anything - one can simply seek a fair snapshot of the detectable stuff in each sample analyzed. Anyone who is "trying to prove" something is falling victim to the error of advocacy. Advocacy starts after Science finds something, not before. > ...as beekeepers we have got serious concerns... > I think if both the ABF & AHPA felt... Who exactly is "we"? Are you representing either the AHPA or ABF on this? > Unlike many of those behind me pushing me to the > front armed with complaints... Again, who is "pushing you to the front? The leadership of the ABF and AHPA seems to be taking a far less adversarial stance than yours. > Some on BEE-L would like to paint Bob Harrison > as the only beekeeper which feels the > neonicotinoids need independent from Bayer testing. Before we start testing neonicotinoids all over again with the intent to quibble over Bayer's numbers, wouldn't be a good idea to find some detectable level that correlates to some sort of problem? MaryAnn has run a lot of samples from a lot of places through the mill, and she just hasn't found anything in the way of a smoking gun. More funding for MaryAnn to "keep looking" is a fine idea, but this does not imply that Bayer has provided false data about their own pesticides. MaryAnn's data is the best data possible, as it shows us exactly what ends up in the hive, in the pollen, and in the bees. What better screening would you suggest for the detection of any level of pesticide problem? > Why... is it that beekeepers in Europe and some > researchers are protesting in the streets? Well, let's take France, just for example: May 16, 2008: Hundreds of thousands of French teachers and civil servants staged a one-day strike http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/16/world/europe/16france.html May 22, 2008: French rail workers on Thursday led a new nationwide day of strike... http://rawstory.com/news/afp/French_rail_workers_lead_nationwide_05222008.ht ml Oct 18, 2007: Hit by nationwide strikes... http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/18/asia/sarkozy.php Nov 13 - 29, 2007: Multiple nationwide strikes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2007_strikes_in_France 3/28/2006: More than 1 million people poured into the streets across France and strikers disrupted air, rail and bus travel Tuesday... http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-03-28-france_x.htm So, in France, nationwide strikes seem to happen more than once a year, and are prompted by a variety of things. (Sounds like a nice way to get a day off.) To contrast, the most beekeepers I've ever seen in one room in the USA was the 800 or so attendees of the Tri-County (Ohio) one-day beekeeping workshop, and the US has never had any sort of "nationwide strike" of the European type. Maybe we in the USA are too jaded. I know that I sent away for my "Free Nelson Mandela", and they never sent me one. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:10:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, Science and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Again with looking at the above figures maybe you can > see why we worry about the systemic effect of > imidacloprid on [corn] seeds being applied year after year Bob, what figures do you have that indicate it is a common practice for upper Midwestern farmers to plant corn in the same field for more than two consecutive years in a row? The evidence I have seen from Iowa State University indicates corn acreage in 2008 is down and soybean acreage is up due to rotation to beans http://www.extension.iastate.edu/CropNews/2008/0409AbendElmorePedersen.htm > Farmers realize that certain fields grow beans better than > corn and other fields produce higher yields of corn. The most recent Iowa State Report also says: "Corn following corn is in rough shape in areas across Iowa". "Over the last eight years, Iowa corn yields following corn have ranged from almost the same to 27 percent less than yield of corn following soybeans. The eight-year average is 14 percent less." http://www.extension.iastate.edu/CropNews/2008/0703Elmore.htm I have not seen any evidence to suggest farmers commonly plant corn for more than two consecutive years, hence I do not understand your concern "about the systemic effect of imidacloprid on [corn] seeds being applied year after year" . Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:53:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Nosema sampling update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi All, I finally got around to formally calibrating Topalska's "field of view" method of estimating nosema spore counts compared to the standard Cantwell method. I found that in my previous rough estimate, that I was off. Here is the actual conversion ratio confirmed by tedious counting of spores in the same samples by both methods: For every 10 spores in the field of view at 400x, you get a standard count of 2.86 million spores (2.86 x 10^6). Of course, significance to three figures is illusory--neither method is that accurate. Another way to calculate is that for every 3.5 spores per field of view, your bees have a spore count of about a million spores per bee. The big question is, at what level should you worry? My test yard is thriving untreated with pretty uniform spore counts (I now know) of about 5M spores per bee (about 20 - 25 per field of view). I've seen apparently healthy colonies with 300 spores per field of view in the spring (in another operation)! Bob H (and anyone else who has counted), can you tell us what level of spores the beekeepers are having problems with in your area(s)? Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 03:01:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Stan_Sandler?= Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, Science and CCD Comments: To: Dave Fischer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am pleased to note that Mr. David Fischer has posted to the list. I would like to take the opportunity to ask him why Bayer has not released any results of the samples taken about five years ago concerning levels of imidacloprid in canola following treated potatoes. Dr. Jim Kemp of the U.P.E.I tells me that the samples are all still in a freezer and that Bayer will not analyze them. His initial investigation in New Brunswick the previous year showed levels of imidacloprid in honey and pollen from bees on canola following potatoes that were similar to the levels of thiamethoxam, even though the canola had been seed treated with thiamethoxam, and the imidacloprid was just being taken up from the soil treatment of the potatoes the previous year. That was just a very small sampling (and has never been published to my knowledge). But the sampling on my hives the following year was extensive. They followed the hives from blueberries into seed canola pollination; they weighed them regularly, they took samples of bees, pollen, honey, canola leaves, flowers, soil. But unlike the previous study, which found very low amounts in clover two years after potatoland treatment (which has been very well used by Bayer) these results have never been made public. I gave free access to the researchers to use my hives in any way they felt necessary, even modifying a few of my stands to make it easier for them to weigh the hives. I think Bayer should have to make those results public. The issue is all the more important now because there is a growing movement to plant canola after potatoes here. It is not so much seed canola now, but field canola. They are planning to put in a crushing plant here on PEI very soon, and the acreage is growing every year. I welcome the opportunity to ask you directly about this, as I have posted regarding this matter before on the bee-l. Stan Sandler **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:22:19 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Waxworm in Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote: > I have always thought that tolerance of > wax moth is a good measure of the hygienic behaviour of a colony - Of course that should have been 'intolerance'! Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 06:15:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Genetic musings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Charles Mraz wrote: > The races of bees that we had 50 years ago were completely different from these same races in the U. S. today. All races of bees in the U. S., Italians, Carniolans, Caucasians, are really no longer like the stock that came over here originally. No new blood has been added to the genetic pool for almost 50 years from the country of origin of these different races. > Practically all of them through constant inbreeding and genetic degeneration have become susceptible to one or more diseases. Many strains of bees today cannot survive exc2pt under constant medication of drugs for Nosema, EFB, AFB, paralysis, etc. This is a dangerous situation. Drug therapy can never be a substitute for resistance to disease. > We now have a station in the U. S. that is supposed to be a bank for preserving genetic strains of bees for future use. Unfortunately, so far as I have been able to observe, most of the strains being preserved are various degenerate freaks. What we need is a storehouse of vigorous, hardy bees with completely new blood lines to create that genetic diversity to select and crossbreed new vigor and resistance into the bees which are now lost. To my knowledge, such genetic stock cannot be found in the U. S. at the present time. Gleanings in Bee Culture, December 1973 -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 03:21:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Educational Site Offers Honey Wound Healing Videos, Curriculum Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Educational Site Offers Honey Wound Healing Videos, Curriculum Honey to Heal Biotechnology Learning Hub http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/07/educational-site-offers-honey-wound.html You may have been spreading honey on your toast for a few years, but people have been using it to treat illnesses for thousands of years! Now honey is being used to make a product that can help wounds heal more quickly. Information Sheets How Honey Heals Wounds Honeybees and Manuka Trees Processing Manuka Honey >From Bees to Bandages Worksheets Experiment: Antibacterial Effects of Honey Experiment: Making Honey Crystals Experiment: The Osmotic Effect of Honey Experiment: The Properties of Honey Experiment: The Thixotropic Nature of Manuka Honey Experiment: The Viscosity of Honey Experiment: How Much Water is in Honey? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:21:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Genetic musings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In 1977, Steve Taber wrote :> My thought on the importation of bees into the U.S. is that we, the American beekeepers, have more to gain than we have to lose from honey bee importation. > In my opinion, there were no real Italian, Caucasian, or Carniolan bees in North America in 1963. In 1963 there were mixed ancesteries [sic] of bees that can bee called "American Bees." I thought then and I think now that it would be a benefit to the Americans beekeeper to be able to have "racial strains" of bees where genes of certain types were more concentrated. -- from "The African Bee in Louisiana" Stephen Taber III American Bee Journal, March 1977 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:59:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Genetic musings In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter L. Borst wrote: (actually Charlie Marz > >> Practically all of them through constant inbreeding and genetic >> degeneration have become susceptible to one or more diseases. >> Many strains of bees today cannot survive exc2pt under constant >> medication of drugs for Nosema, EFB, AFB, paralysis, etc. This is >> a dangerous situation. Drug therapy can never be a substitute for >> resistance to disease. (1972) But ferals abounded back then and they were the ones wiped out by Tracheal and Varroa. If the original strains were so healthy, they should have constituted the feral population, since all the others "cannot survive". I admire Charlie, but this was a bit of exaggeration to make a point with zero backup. Also, if he was looking for resistance to disease, he should never have stung himself for arthritis (drug therapy) but let the body develop resistance. Bill Truesdell (who is actually a disciple of Charlie's, and sting myself regularly) Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:30:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Genetic musings Comments: To: William Truesdell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Bill Truesdell (who is actually a disciple of Charlie's, and sting >myself regularly) Me too. Yesterday, despite being stung dozens of times during the day's inspections, I applied three stings to a wart on my finger to see if I could get rid of it that way. Just a "theory" I had heard of ... I'll let you know if it goes. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:52:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, Science and CCD In-Reply-To: <48914935.3A75@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bob, what figures do you have that indicate it is a > common practice for upper Midwestern farmers to > plant corn in the same field for more than two > consecutive years in a row? I went into both the Usda office in Lafayette & Jackson counties and asked and spoke with farmers which were in showing the USDA the location of the fields they planted in corn & beans. The USDA takes ariel photos of each farm. All real farmers have a farm number. My farm has a USDA county farm number. Farmers wait in line and then give their farm number. Then the USDA rep pulls the ariel photos. You know the government. They can tell you what crops have been planted in which fields for years and years. Then farmer points to the fields and tell the clerk what he planted. At the last trip I was on a first name basis with the farmers involved and the clerk. I had hives on the land of three of the farmers. The process is not exact as the USDA does not go and measure to less than an acre . Takes the farmers word. Example would be 240 acres in corn for the 5th year in a row. The photos are marked in sections. In the square for each section the clerk writes 40 acres corn , beans , other crop name or CRP. On my farm land they write pasture & orchard. > > The evidence I have seen from Iowa State University > indicates corn acreage in 2008 is down and soybean acreage > is up due to rotation to beans beans are a bigger money crop than corn on certain ground but is a dry weather crop and in my opinion harder to get planted in a wet year. many fields without a crop were intended for beans. I would say because of the wet weather the ratio this year is about 80% corn this year in my area. I we shocked when farmers tell me crop rotation is a thing of the past with the new chemicals. The farmers said the only reason for crop rotation in the past was to prevent disease. With the new seed and chemicals now not a problem. Farmers love the new products. making money (big money) and spending a greater amount of time at the Lake of the Ozarks at their weekend get away. : > "Corn following corn is in rough shape in areas across Iowa". Not in Missouri & Nebraska! If was true the farmers would not be doing! Studies are really not very accurate as farmers simply say what the want to say most of the time. The truth is that as a general rule the Iowa study *might* be true but when you consider by using bottom land for corn you might get a 100 bushels a year better yield than rotating corn /beans in a field with low yield of both. A ready market exists for corn and the beans market is a roller coaster ride. maybe up or maybe down. I have got help standing watching me on the computer. Have to go Paul or would address your other questions. Busy time for me. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:09:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: The CM Cult In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those who may not have known him or about him, Charlie Mraz was an exceptional man and probably the founder of Apitherapy. As I recall his talk, when he was in his teens, he was told that his Rheumatoid Arthritis would cripple him and he would need a wheelchair by the time he was in his 20s. He noticed that, in the summer when he was working bees, his RA pain seemed to decrease, but returned in the summer. Since the only thing different was the bees and being stung, he stung himself on purpose and noted a decrease in symptoms. He refined his technique by marking the location of his pain and stinging himself right there. From then on, he was pain free. And spry, when I saw him about 15 plus years ago. He was a kind, gentle man, with a good sense of humor and patient with those who asked countless questions. I ran the Annual Meeting of the MSBA the year we invited Charlie to speak. It was the largest crowd we ever had since it drew in lots of non-beekeepers (so made a ton of money for the organization, since they only came for the talk and skipped lunch). I have told this part of the story before, so forgive the repetition, but, at the time, my shoulder was giving me a load of pain and I was scheduled to see a specialist who was going to do surgery to relive me of the pain. When I heard Charlie describe his symptoms and summer relief, a very large light bulb lit over my head since they were exactly mine. When I got home, I got some bees and stung myself right where the pain was. I slept soundly on that shoulder for the first time that winter. No surgery, and no more pain since then. I do get twinges, but just grab some bees and all is back to normal. Like Peter, I do try stings on other problems, but have found that they do not work on many other joint or joint related pain. Forget bursitis or sciatic nerve pain- BTDT. But for arthritis, it has been a life enhancer for me. So thank you again, Charlie Marz. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:10:38 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David MacFawn Subject: Re: Genetic musings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 I guess I am more of an applied research person than a basic research =20 person. I must have a slightly different thought on how all this hangs tog= ether. =20 I believe that bees evolve to meet changing climatic conditions, pest =20 conditions , food conditions, etc. by the genes that are passed along. Whe= n we=20 treat, we perpetuate genes that may not be optimal and account for the weat= her=20 changes or pest changes, etc. Hence, we end up with a lot of colonies that= =20 cannot live on their own. This is what I believe happen when some of you s= aid=20 the feral bee genes are different than the domestic genes. We have done=20 this for what we say are economic $$ investment concerns, concerns about fo= od=20 supply, etc. The further we go down this path the more it is going to cost= us=20 in treatment, i.e. just keeping the colonies alive, and the more uncertain=20 the bees survival is....i.e. nature is better at figuring this out than man= is. =20 In the wild, the colonies that cannot adapt dies off and the survivors =20 perpetuate.....this is the Darwinian outlook. Hence, the bees adapt to the=20= =20 changing conditions. This is true of weather, pests, food, etc.=20 =20 I am attaching an article, that I started and never published. The second=20 part of the article is where I analyzed the cost of treatment. This was do= ne=20 two years ago and it shows the cost of treatment is more than the cost of=20 bees. As we discussed, this cost or savings can be looked at as an annuity= . I=20 really believe it should be run out for 20 years and I say that since it=20 took 10-15 years to adapt to the tracheal mite and about 18 years (since ab= out=20 1990) to adapt to the Varroa mite (it seems our feral colonies are on the=20 rebound). It is cheaper in the long run to let the colonies die and "graf= t "=20 off the survivors. Treatment catches up with you. Or use the feral colon= ies=20 as a gene pool. =20 =20 =20 In my own operation, I have one colony that I have not treated for anything=20= =20 for 3 years. I plan to let the remaining colonies "go wild" I will be=20 looking for feral colonies to add to my stock. But I am a sideliner not de= pendent=20 on bees for a living. =20 =20 =20 Case Study=20 Consider the cost of treating hives in an outyard. Keep in mind the =20 greater the number of hives in the outyard the less cost per hive. A twenty= hives=20 outyard will be used since this is the maximum number of hives one typicall= y=20 wants to work in one yard.=20 Mileage cost =3D cost per mile * total number of miles=20 =3D $0.44/mile * 20 miles one way * 2=20 =3D $17.60=20 Medication cost =3D varroa treatment cost + foulbrood treatment cost + Nose= ma=20 treatment cost + small hive beetle treatment cost.=20 In this example I am going to treat for varroa,=20 Foulbrood will not be treated since I am monitoring the hives and =20 only treating as necessary=20 Nosema will not be treated since I live in the south and this is not=20 typically an issue=20 Small Hive Beetle will be treated not by medication but by moving=20 the hives every 2 months. Moving will break the Beetle=20 pupation cycle in the soil around the hive. There is an extra =20 labor and mileage cost.=20 Using Sucrocide to treat for Varroa we have:=20 Three times every 7-10 days 2. One pint treats approximately 29 hives and=20 cost $19.95 This is $19.95/29 hives or 0.69/hive. Each trip to the outy= ard=20 takes approximately 1 hour with another 1 hour for treatment or 120 minutes= =20 (2.0 hours) total. For an $8/hour labor rate.=20 Total treatment cost is (this does not include overhead costs):=20 =3D 20 hives ($0.69 / hive) + ($0.44/mile * 20 miles one way * 2) 3 trips=20 + (2 hours) $8.00/ hour labor rate=20 =3D $13.76 medication treatment cost + $52.8 mileage cost + $16 labor=20 =3D $82.56 to treat for Varroa=20 Using Mite-Away II for the second treatment we have:=20 Page 52 of the 2006 Dadant Catalog, use one pad per 6-20 frames of brood =20 500F to 790F . Cost is two 10 pack pails =3D $34.95 * 2 =3D $69.90; 20 fra= mes *=20 2.25/frame =3D $45. Total for 20 hives =3D $69.90 + $45 =3D $114.90. Tota= l treatment=20 cost is:=20 =3D $114.90 + ($0.44/mile * 20 miles one way * 2) 2 trips + (2 hours) =20 $8.00/hour labor rate=20 =3D $148.5=20 If we treat for Varroa twice a year using Sucrocide, this would be $165.12.= =20 Using one Sucrocide treatment and one Mite-Away II treatment would be =20 $231.06. Note these numbers will vary depending on one=E2=80=99s bee opera= tion. Large=20 operations with more outyards will incur a larger cost with back yard opera= tions=20 only incurring the medication treatment cost and some labor.=20 Example Treatment Cost Per Pound=20 Assume the hives produce on average 50 lbs with only 17 of the 20 producing= .=20 This means the outyard will yield:=20 50 lbs * 17 hives =3D 850 lbs of honey. =20 The total Sucrocide additional treatment cost will add :=20 $82.56 / 850 lb =3D $0.10/lb to the cost of honey. =20 This figure would be $0.20 / lb if we treat with Sucrocide twice a year =20 for Varroa. =20 For 100 lbs/hive, we would have 1700 lbs honey. This would be $165.12/1700= =20 lbs=3D $0.10 added to a pound of honey for treating twice with Sucrocide and= =20 $100lb/hive yield. Using 100 pound hive yield, and treating once with=20 Sucrocide and once with Mite-Away II would be $231.06 / 1700 =3D $0.14/poun= d =20 The actual cost may be more if we have to treat for Foulbrood, Nosema, or=20 Small Hive Beetle. Note, this also does not include the cost of moving hiv= es=20 for Small Hive Beetle control. This figure does not cover the overhead cos= t=20 like accountants, extractor operations costs, honey house, woodenware cost,=20= =20 bottling cost, marketing and distribution cost. =20 This is an additional $0.10 / lb to $0.20/ lb off the bottom line=20 profitability of the bee operation. This may mean the difference from makin= g money or=20 losing money. =20 Resistant Stock Worth=20 If we can obtain bee stock (via requeening or buying packages) that are=20 resistant to varroa in this case, we should be willing to pay extra for tho= se=20 bees. Requeening with resistant stock for existing hives is by far the che= aper=20 way to go. If we do this we should be able to save :=20 Mileage cost =3D cost per mile * total number of miles=20 Labor cost: 2 hour to requeen 20 hives + 1 hour travel time=20 Resistant queens are, $additional resistant queen cost, more than =20 standard queens=20 Savings =3D $165.12 =E2=80=93 ($additional resistant queen cost * 20 queen= s + =20 ($0.44/mile * 20 miles one way * 2) + 3 hour * $8/hour).=20 =3D $165.12 =E2=80=93 ( $resistant additional queen cost * 20 + $17.6 + 24)= =20 =3D ($165.12 =E2=80=93 41.5)/20 =3D resistant additional queen cost=20 =3D $6.17 =3D additional resistant queen cost treating twice with Sucrocide= .=20 for: $231.06 treating once with Sucrocide and once with Mite-Away II would=20 be:=20 =3D $231.12 =E2=80=93 ($additional resistant queen cost * 20 queens + ($0.44= /mile * 20=20 miles * 2) + 3 * $8.00/hour)=20 =3D ($231.12 - 41.5)/20=20 =3D $9.48 additional resistant queen cost when treating with Sucrocide and =20 Mite-Away II=20 In this case we can pay up to $6.17 to $9.48 more for resistant queens over= =20 nonresistant queens and still save money the first year. A savings will be= =20 realized in following years also. Note this figure is based on an $0.44/mil= e=20 rate, 20 miles one way to the bee yard, a 20 hive bee yard, and an $8/hour=20 labor rate. If these figures change, this number will also change. =20 Conclusion=20 The cost of bees and chemicals in the hive, high gas prices, and labor rate= s=20 to name a few are quickly making the US uncompetitive with our costs; we =20 can only get so much for our honey due to world competition. Local honey is=20= =20 different than the world honey. We should continue working toward using m= ite=20 resistance stock with expensive chemical treatment use only in dire =20 circumstances and then only until an untreated =E2=80=9Csurvivor=E2=80=9D qu= een can be obtained. In=20 the long run, for queen breeders, B Weaver has the right idea by not using=20 chemicals and grafting off the survivors. It is cheaper for the industry fo= r the=20 queen breeders to graft off the survivors, and the producers requeen their=20 hives with the breeder survivors. It should be noted that in order to sav= e=20 medication cost, the bees cannot require treatment, i.e. they are resistant= not=20 tolerant. The short run will be painful but maybe not as financially=20 painful as the chemical route.=20 **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for=20 FanHouse Fantasy Football today. =20 (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=3Daolspr00050000000020) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:22:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Genetic musings In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In 1977, Steve Taber wrote > > :> My thought on the importation of bees into the U.S. is that we, the > American beekeepers, have more to gain than we have to lose from honey > bee importation. Steve taber was years ahead of his time in my opinion. I was in agreement with the above at the time and in agreement today. Steve was never afraid to say what he believed. I think after the higher ups at Baton Rouge really understood the reason for the inbreed gene import they realized they had made a mistake. I believe Steve was *right* and Bill Wilson was wrong. I observed the genetics but only in Florida. The bees were gentle but like SMR were simply too inbred and had poor brood viability. In the north F3 generations of SMR had poor winter survival because of poor brood viability. For those which do not understand it means because the bees were so inbred the brood pattern was shotgun and so the bees went into winter unable to raise enough winter bees to form the size cluster to survive. Only one hive of my SMR F3 survived the first winter and only in my opinion because I sent to almonds in California. Bell Honey and myself received two of the first SMR II breeder queens from Glenn apiaries. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:41:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: The CM Cult MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 31/07/2008 16:37:23 GMT Standard Time, bhfarms@SUSCOM-MAINE.NET writes: I do try stings on other problems, but have found that they do not work on many other joint or joint related pain. I tried it a few months ago for tennis elbow (lateral epicondylitis) and it worked for me. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:50:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, Science and CCD and Bayer In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Fischer wrote: > Dear BEE-L readers, And if I got the kind of response he got, I would make sure I told others in the industry and research community to stay off this list. Ah, but that is exactly what most researchers did way back when this list was started. It was a list about bee biology and "informed" was in the title. But science was so assailed back then by the Luddites, that researchers gave up and let the rest of us argue in a sometimes informed , but usually not, way. It would have been interesting to see informed back and forth discussion on Dave Fischer's post, but the response has been predictable, although a bit more vituperative than I have seen in a long time. His post laid out the research done so far including many non-Bayer studies. He also responded to the supposed non-responsiveness of Bayer not "answering the mail". All that is needed are some names to prove him wrong. So far, everything I have seen by non-Bayer scientist and researchers backs Bayer's position when you look at what actually happens in the field. The French researcher have no ax to grind since the pesticide was banned and they could have left it there. Instead, they showed the decision was mistaken. Truth is, if you look closely into that decision, it is interesting that a French competitor was very much in favor of the ban. And following the Bayer ban, a French company was implicated in a major French bee pesticide kill. My opinion is that politics and protecting the French chemical companies had more to do with the ban, than science. However, what is most unsettling about the response to the post is the broad brush indictment of Bayer as an unscrupulous company which would lie and not care about bee kills. Dave Fischer's post actually proves the opposite, since an unscrupulous company would never have posted on this forum. Why bother? The green revolution is so strong that any major company which knows its product is suspect and does not do good science on it to either confirm or prove it wrong, is in for a major hit. Especially bees. They are on everyones radar and no company would want to be the cause of the bees disappearing and suffer the condemnation and consequences. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:02:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Bees disappearing solved In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I enjoy watching Dr Who, a Brit scifi show, and have watched it for years, even back to the grainy black and white days. In this seasons finale, the cause of the bees disappearing is explained. Bees are actually an alien race, at least most are, and, at sign of trouble (in this case the pesky Daleks moving earth to another hidden part of the universe), bail out for their home planet. However, I am a bit concerned that our comrades across the sea had this information last year and did not let us know the real cause of disappearing bees. Would have saved a lot of discussion. Troubling. What else are they keeping from us colonials? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:51:24 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Genetic musings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 30/07/2008 22:08:47 GMT Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: Is diversity the same as hybridisation? No. Not necessarily. For example you could get a hybrid produced by II from 2 inbred lines. To get diversity you need open mated mongrels. I am using as definitions: hybrid = a cross of known parentage; and mongrel = a cross of unknown parentage. I know that usage of these terms seems to change as the Atlantic is crossed. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:02:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Genetic musings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 31/07/2008 16:37:47 GMT Standard Time, Dmacfawn@AOL.COM writes: I believe that bees evolve to meet changing climatic conditions, pest conditions , food conditions, etc. by the genes that are passed along. When we treat, we perpetuate genes that may not be optimal and account for the weather changes or pest changes, etc. You get what you select for. Treating does nothing to select resistant bees, only resistant pests. Similarly feeding bees does nothing to select for those that are more economic with their stores. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:11:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Our bee-l family MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear BEE-L Friends, It's said you can pick your nose, you can pick a guitar, but you can't = pick your family. I'm not sure of the schedule, as my invitation obviously got lost in the = mail. But today, possibly at this very moment, Jim Fischer is getting = to a wonderful woman, Joanne Thomas! I'm always grieved when there is news of a passing of one of our BEE-L = family members. I'm elated to pass on such joyous news! Congratulations Jim and Joanne! May you future be as joyous as you both = deserve!!! Sincerely, Aaron **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:10:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Genetic musings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 31/07/2008 16:38:31 GMT Standard Time, busybeeacres@HUGHES.NET writes: My thought on the importation of bees into the U.S. is that we, the > American beekeepers, have more to gain than we have to lose from honey > bee importation. Steve Taber was probably right genetically; however most of the problems with bees are caused by them being moved around the world taking exotic pests and diseases with them. A viable safe compromise would seem to be to import semen (which is not absolutely safe as it can carry viruses) and to use it in carefully controlled conditions until the resulting progeny are found to be disease free and suitable additions for release into the general gene pool as Sue Cobey is doing. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:33:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Genetic musings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > Yesterday, despite being stung dozens of times during the day's > inspections Perhaps you need to start selecting for better tempered bees? This week we have been working with the bees every day - all day! - have removed 1/2 ton of honey, returned wet supers and spent many hours setting up mating nucs etc. The weather has been very mixed. I have had just one sting. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:31:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Re- So called feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/07/2008 14:48:51 GMT Standard Time, homesteadhoney@WN.COM.AU writes: undoubtedly, the worst of the European races in our black bees. Their only redeeming feature is their hardiness, but then that works against us as well, because it is why they exist ferally as well as they do. They are always impossibly nervous, usually nasty, produce little honey, and have little resistance to brood diseases, especially chalkbrood. They give darker bees, or any bee they cross with, a bad name." Several points arise here. Colour is inherited independently and is little indication of the nature of the rest of the genes in a colony; also black is dominant over yellow. Often Amm, when mixed with Aml or others of the eastern line, produces a very cross cross as a result of hybrid vigour. So the bad name may be unfairly applied to dark bees when it is the addition of the unseen yellow strain that is the cause of the problem. Selection of docile lines is very achievable. The black Irish bees used to have a fearsome reputation, however, in recent years groups of beekeepers (mostly members of BIBBA, the Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders' Association) have 'tamed' them. Less than a week ago, John Hendrie (BBKA), Sue Cobey and I opened a hive of black Irish bees after tea at Gormanston without a smoker or veil between us. We took out a couple of well populated frames for examination and the bees virtually ignored us. Sue picked off a drone and showed us her technique for everting it for semen collection. After maybe 5 minutes or more we put the hive (a 5 frame nuc) back together again. None of us was stung or even buzzed at. Although we didn't notice any on that occasion, some people who have used some of those Irish bees have reported high levels of chalkbrood. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:06:17 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Bees disappearing solved MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bill > Would have saved a lot of discussion. It would indeed. However, you miss the point - we've known all along about the bees and their home planet. Over here we've greatly enjoyed watching the contortions as the debate unfolds and every possible whipping-post of the ill-informed gets airtime. The mobile phone outcry was, of course, deliberately planted by our German chums just to get the process underway. We were a little surprised that the GM angle was not taken up with quite the enthusiasm we might have seen in previous years, and intrigued how the intensity shifted fairly rapidly first to viruses then pesticides. Just wanted to say sorry to Randy, who valiantly tried to stay logical through all of this. What completely baffles me is how no-one spotted the inter-planetary link already. We've left enough clues - 11 year cycles anyone?! Ever wondered why the focus has been on a company with the rather odd acronym of BAYER? Don't let it be said that Germans have no sense of humour (OK then, humor). Bees Are Your Extraterrestrial Representatives of course! The trouble is, what are we going to do with this giant organisation now that we have infiltrated your food production system so comprehensively at a time of increasing worries over food security and presidential reshuffling?! > What else are they keeping from us colonials? Sorry - you'll have to wait for the next Dr Who series Bill! all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:46:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Genetic musings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > A long-term study was completed to compare the development of genetically diverse colonies (those with many patrilines) and genetically uniform colonies (those with workers that share only one father) after a swarming event. The results show genetically diverse colonies were more successful. > By the end of the summer, genetically diverse colonies had populations that were five times larger than those of genetically uniform colonies, they reared eight times more reproductive males, and they were significantly heavier, mostly because of large amounts of stored food. These surplus food reserves sustained the genetically diverse colonies throughout the winter months, whereas all of the genetically uniform colonies starved to death by December. > This research suggests that the use of poorly mated queens in commercial operations (mating quality includes number of mates, sperm stored, genetic diversity of mates) may have a large impact on the productivity of the colonies that they head. -- "Genetic Diversity May Be the Key to New Honey Bee Colony Success" Heather R. Mattila and Thomas D. Seeley Department of Neurobiology and Behavior, Cornell University **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:26:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Genetic musings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 31/07/2008 23:18:19 GMT Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: This week we have been working with the bees every day - all day! - ......... I have had just one sting. What type are your bees? Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:43:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Genetic musings In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chris & All, Chris said: to be > disease free and suitable additions for release into the general gene pool > as > Sue Cobey is doing. > I am not sure Sue sets the best example. Aphis had a talk with Sue this spring about her methods. Yes virus can be brought in with semen. Yes semen needs Aphis approval to be imported. So far Chris our knowledge of virus as virus applies to honey bees has not changed since the work of Bailey, Ball & Carrick. Since CCD several researchers which I could name but will not have *suggested* (hopefully the right word) that virus is part of our current bee die off ( CCD?). Back before CCD I helped with virus issues brought on because of varroa in the second largest bee operation in the world. We had quite a back and forth with Ball & Carrick (U.K.). Norman shared research with me he was to present at apimondia on virus. I read ,promised not to pass on, and gave my opinion. The bottom line and will be my opinion until those researchers pushing the *virus is a problem to honeybees* can provide support for their hypothesis is to rely on the long standing work done in the U.K. . My opinion will be based on the many years of research done by Bailey, Ball and Carrick. The research in the U.K. (which Chris is very familiar with) says all the virus of honey bees without the complication of varroa only cause minor problems in bees. The research presented at apimondia by Norman Carrick showed that bees can handle varroa without problems without virus. Norman ( also Bailey & Ball) also showed that virus without varroa has little effect on honeybees. The two combined is the issue. The bottom line has always been if you control varroa then you see little if any virus ( named PMS parasitic mite syndrome). It has been my experience over the last decade that PMS can be seen in colonies with less than threshold varroa loads but its also my experience that all virus issues disappear when varroa controls are in the high 90% range. Since the bee die-off named colony collapse disorder (CCD) some have said what we know from the research of Bailey ( has found and named more virus than any bee researcher on the planet) , Ball & Carrick *might* (correct word?) be suspect. However they present only hypothesis based on a couple years of research on a small number of samples. In the Florida case I worked on we found if we controlled varroa the virus issues went away EXACTLY like Ball & Carrick said. One CCD researcher said they have discovered new unnamed virus in CCD samples. So? What's to say they have not always been here. As a lifelong beekeeper I can say that most of us only looked at the work of Bailey with casual interest until varroa arrived. Dr. Shiminuki clearly explained that virus (PMS) is not an issue with bees unless varroa reaches high levels. However virus can play a role in hives weakened by other things. What does it mean. Until current research can prove that a certain virus is capable of killing bees in a hive free of varroa then the hypothesis that a virus is somehow responsible for widespread bee die off is strictly a hypothesis. Bailey found that virus issues in bees *before* varroa only cause minor problems. It is my opinion and from discussion with many commercial beekeepers that spending a great deal of research funds chasing the * a virus is killing our bees* hypothesis is a waste of funds. The cure for virus issues has always been better nutrition, control of varroa and a possible genetic solution. I do not post to hit a nerve but only to voice an opinion based on a large amount of dealing with varroa/virus issues. digging through stacks of correspondence from the U.K. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:53:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Die off in italy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I was informed today ( by phone) that a die off is happening in Italy in an area of tasseling corn. Systemic pesticides suspected and samples being taken. The commercial beekeeper is going to keep me posted on the results of the testing. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:45:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Lord Subject: I need help in Malawi with honey extraction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bee-Liners; I am working on a short term job in Malawi (East Africa) with a very = beginning honey processing industry, The project here has sought to = teach indigenous people to value forests and other natural resources by = introducing beekeeping and other skills that enable local people to use = the forests as sustainable resources. To make a long a story short, = introduction of top bar beekeeping has worked, and they have in excess = of 50 tons of forest honey on hand. The big problem here is poor honey = quality coming from the beekeeper. The beekeepers harvest at night. = Remember, African bees, poor protective equipment and smokers, as well = as co-mingling brood and pollen with honey combs). Now they 'extract' = the honey by pressing combs or by letting it drip through coarse cloth = into a bucket, with poor efficiency and some really dirty honey.We are = stuck with using top bar hives for the time being. Before I came out I = built a 'bush' honey extractor - see = www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2005/september/honeyextractor.htm out of a = plastic 50 gallon food grade barrel, two bicycle wheels, a steel rod = drive shaft and some other common parts. You set the wheels on a shaft = and let the wheels act as the extractor reel. I drove it with a 1/2 = inch drill and extracted 6 supers of honey last weekend. It worked like = a charm until I wore out the cheap bearings, but I got 4 - 5 gallon = buckets of very nice honey out of it. I am thinking what we might try here is a 'bush cappings spinner', to = wit:, grind the honey combs from the top bar hives and spin the ground = wax/honey mixture in a hand cranked cappings spinner. My thought is to = enclose the extractor basket in heavy wire mesh and slowly feed in the = crushed comb mixture to get even distribution. Can someone send me a = photo of a cappings spinner so I can show these people? Any ideas on a = simple grinder for honey combs? I thought of the old apple grinder and = press I inherited from my grandfather, but would like to spin the gound = up mixture rather than press it. Any, and I mean ANY help or ideas appreciated Bill Lord ususally of Louisburg, NC USA courrently, Blantyre Malawi **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:15:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Genetic musings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> Yesterday, despite being stung dozens of times during the day's inspections > >Perhaps you need to start selecting for better tempered bees? Maybe. Unfortunately, I work with other people's bees, not mine, as an apiary inspector. The beauty of owning your own bees is in having everything the way you want it. I run into such things as telescoping outer covers used without inner covers -- removing these is a nightmare. Hives with seven supers full of honey and the brood is in the first box under the queen excluder. Plastic frames that get stuck to the frames above and make separating the boxes nearly impossible. Hives that are opened only once a year, -- by me. All these things rile 'em up. But the day I was referring to was spent battling in dark forested woodland apiaries on an overcast day at the end of a spell of bad weather. I always worked bare-handed in ordinary clothes (well, light blue denim). Some days I don't get stung, others hundreds of times. No swelling or ill effects. not bragging, just telling it like it is pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:52:07 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Neonicotinoids, Science and CCD and Bayer In-Reply-To: <4891DF5C.5050107@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: The green revolution is so strong that any major company which knows its product is suspect and does not do good science on it to either confirm or prove it wrong, is in for a major hit. Especially bees. They are on everyones radar and no company would want to be the cause of the bees disappearing and suffer the condemnation and consequences. The above should be true - BUT: Often when a product is placed on to the market the science supporting the material may be 1.Erroneous due to lack of proper directed questioning (as result of the Regulating bodies not requiring testing in particular circumstances) 2. Limited investigative protocols. 3. Techniques and material involved in the testing not being at the time adequate to indicate potential weakness, flaws or failings. Historically, companies have been loathed, slow or unwilling to accept new scientific data which would impact the market position of their product. Maybe a little dated in its self, one should get hold of the CST report dealing with Imidaclopride in France. It independently invalidated much of the work done in the cited references mentioned in the open mail from the Bayer representative. It also did the same for other scientific work done in this field. Usually due to application of invalidating scientific protocols. AND this committee had a representative from the AFSSA as one of its members. Individuals must also be made aware that problems with bees in France was only placed into the public domain after much effort by the beekeepers themselves who had much better things to be occupied with than demonstrating on the street. But if it takes that to get a responsible authority to listen - then that what is/ was done. I have seen bee losses, dead hives and suffered the financial result from this period of time in France. Colonies well populated, arriving in sunflower fields from other sites that had been most productive, only to be without foragers several days later. Situation in the States: No personal involvement, therefore absence of comment from me - But France, a different story and that is in the archives and other places on the net + plus hours/ days and the rest in efforts to get to the truth. To end the mail - How many of the readers on this list have a copy of " A Propos de la sante des abeilles..." as produced by Bayer (About the health of bees) - a recommended read.I am holding on to my copy as it will possibly be a real "treasure " in the future. All the best, Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:30:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Bees disappearing solved Comments: cc: Bill Truesdell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_112_669639.1217554228541" ------=_Part_112_669639.1217554228541 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree. BTW, the true answer is 42. Now where did I put my Sonic Screwdriver? - John Edwards ----------------------------------------------- On Thu Jul 31 11:02:20 CDT 2008, Bill Truesdell wrote: > I enjoy watching Dr Who, a Brit scifi show, and have watched it > for years, even back to the grainy black and white days. > > In this seasons finale, the cause of the bees disappearing is > explained. Bees are actually an alien race, **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ------=_Part_112_669639.1217554228541--