From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:03:58 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.1 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A632148374 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y6Y017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0809B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 114783 Lines: 2597 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 21:26:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Unlimited broodnest hives and migration. In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10809062303ibce2ea8p65e0eda4d4922dff@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, > Back in the days of hand loading individual colonies, many of us ran one >> deep and one medium for the brood chamber. It balanced much better when >> you >> picked it up. The above was not said by me. I have never handled a deep and medium by hand. I have handled singles and deeps with a Payne loader years ago. Years ago I handled two deeps by hand. I have serious lower back issues from a life of heavy lifting. As I said before muscles have developed in my fingers from lifting boxes by the current industry hand holds which make my hands look cupped and hard for me to hold straight without feeling the muscles tighten. My beekeeping partner picks up two deeps even today moving from skid to another skid by hand but he stands six foot five and is around 300 pounds. Worked 17 years in police work. Is an expert marksman. If its legal to hunt most likely he has hunted the critter. Many people look for me at a national meeting by looking for the tallest person and I am usually close by. His hands make two of mine. The heavy work of beekeeping comes easy for Glenn due to his size and strength. both Glenn ( Bell Hill Honey) and myself have tried a deep and a medium but find two deeps better for our purposes. I will do a post on my opinions on keeping bees in two deeps if you will explain Randy why you prefer a deep and a medium. Maybe others will join in explaining why they prefer a certain config. Years ago (10?) when I was on the Irish Beekeeping List ( which I miss but like the *other* list have little time to read and post these days) I learned the Langstroth box is not preferred in the U.K. like in the U.S. and my U.K. friends were quick to point out why they preferred the boxes they used. Many did like the old Dadant tall deep which I have used but I do not know of a single beek still using. Are there beeks on the list still using the size? Will work on a post in response to Randy's question about "honey getting" in two deeps. My long time friend David Hackenberg uses two deeps and a shallow. he has explained several times why he uses the config but still does not really fit into my way of beekeeping but he has used two deeps and a shallow ever since we first met in Florida years ago by a semi truck. We were instant friends and his tales of trucking bees over decades can span hours without ever telling the same story twice. A well known commercial Midwest beek with which I have taken bees into California and Texas with tells people I can tell tales of beekeeping and the Teamsters ( I was involved for 31 years) for the several days on the road and never tell the same story twice. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 21:49:34 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis Used to Treat American Foulbrood - NOT! Comments: To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com In-Reply-To: <000601c91153$919c7f00$6402a8c0@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Propolis itself was NOT tested!Reply:Yes, understand and it's a shame ethan= ol was mixed with it, for certainly wouldn't want that in beehives as it wo= uld be non-orgnaic for sure. But never-the-less 1993-1996 until we shook down for second regression, all= we used for treatment of fouls, chalk, sac,nosema, etc., was propolis.Then= spring of 1997 after making SC foundation with 4.9mm top tolerance, we sho= ok down again fine tuning to get rid of secondary diseases.The hives were l= iving with varroa, but as have said before needed to get back to production= . Also we were told to prove it! and have stayed course!But it was simply g= round up propolis frozen and in a coffee mill ground into powder and mixed = into granulated honey in place of normal terrmycin treatment.Noting more!Wi= th regression to 4.9mm top tolerance levels of foul fell to 1-2% seeing and= have stayed that way, never being a problem since!=A0Dee A. Lusby=A0=0A=0A= =0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 09:28:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Propolis Used to Treat American Foulbrood Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: >Reply: No need to evaluate the effect of propolis for control of foul broods and other maladies as it works quite well. Have talked about that for many years How true! No need for any evaluation nor independent verification at all. A simple testimonial, especially from the latest media darling, has always worked as well or better to prove the usefulness of any product, technique, or theory. Check out the "Davie Brown Index" (DBI) to determine a celebrity’s ability to influence brand affinity and consumer purchase intent. All you need is the right endorsement and your idea is on its way. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 08:37:38 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Pollen gamma irratiation In-Reply-To: <00a201c9109c$829168c0$a51fd879@user96c8c0908f> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Concerning irratiation for maladies occuring in pollen.........if it kills = the problem with viruses and fungal, and bacteria for fouls, chalk, nosema = etc........then to me it kills the beneficial bacteria like with lactic aci= d bacteria for normal fermenting and digestion by larva and makes the polle= n worthless for food for growing new larva........ =A0 Someone correct me if I am=A0 wrong..........You irratiate the pollen you t= ake, or pollen left in frames, or honey even, and then what good is it for = food maintenance of both young and adult bees in a beehive? =A0 Again, some one correct me if I am wrong. (Same for acid usage too, might I= throw in.) We ahve been over this in the past..........and hence reason fo= r no/zero treatments stand. =A0 Dee A. Lusby =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 22:06:39 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Pollen gamma irratiation Comments: To: Trevor Weatherhead In-Reply-To: <002201c91131$f1633450$87d7a53a@user96c8c0908f> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This question was raised in Australia in the early 1990's when we started using irradiated pollen.=A0 There was work done to show that the pollen was= quite satisfactory for brood rearing.=A0 It has been found since then that the st= orage life of pollen can be greatly enhanced by irradiation.=A0 It has been used successfully in Australia incorporated into protein patties on pollen defic= ient honey flows to maintain brood.=A0 If not feed, then the bees go broodless.= =A0 =A0 Reply: Okay, then! How was the pollen then=A0shown to be=A0satisfactory for broodr= earing? Did the bee rework it somehow? Is so how reworked? Any beneficial o= rganisms added to aid fermentation for digestion by young larva/bees? No ch= anges needed to be made by the bees? You say successfully incorporated into= protein patties, so was it mixed with normal honey that could have had act= ive lactic acid bacteria in it to make it useable for digestion? If not mix= ed with honey for protein patties, then exactly how was it mixed for good u= sable natural patties? Any unnatural foreign ingrediants to a beehive or be= es used? =A0 Dee A. Lusby=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 10:05:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: kurt Subject: Propolis Used to Treat American Foulbrood In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed If you read further into the paper, the authors describe the =20 preparation of the propolis ethanol extract (PEE). Aside from the =20 funny acronym, extracting with ethanol or methanol and drying it down =20= to remove the alcohol is how most natural products research begins. =20 It looks like the final concentration of ethanol is 10%. I don't know =20= how that concentration may affect bees, but in typical cell culture =20 (more sensitive), you want to keep the ethanol concentration below =20 0.1%. I only scanned the paper quickly, but I did not see any mention =20= of negative controls (treatment with 10% ethanol) for comparison. from the paper: 2.2. Preparation of PEE A concentrated propolis solution was prepared homogenizing 400 g of =20 propolis in 1 l of ethanol 96%, and incubated for 10 days at 22=9625 =B0=20= C. Then, it was filtered through paper filter and incubated until =20 ethanol evaporated and the product obtained a honey-like consistence. =20= This extract was diluted in ethanol 96% to a final concentration of =20 10% of the extract to form the PEE (starting solution). cheers, Kurt On Sep 8, 2008, at 12:00 AM, BEE-L automatic digest system wrote: > Propolis itself was NOT tested! > > The paper addresses the use of a substance > called an "ethanol extract of propolis" > rather than propolis, so it should be clear > that there is quite a bit of ethanol in the > mix applied to the cultured AFB. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 07:47:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Unlimited broodnest hives and migration. In-Reply-To: <0794FB4B43B44F20AD09E5E4C31B11D8@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > > explain Randy why you prefer a deep and a medium. Bob, this was a common configuration in Calif when we still hand loaded. Bottom boards nailed on. The advantage was better center of gravity for lifting, and less weight. Far easier on the back than double deeps. However, it was a pain to have two different sizes of frames. When I started selling nucs each spring, I changed to all double deeps. Very hard on the back. I hand loaded by myself for some years--would put one on the ground at the side of the truck. Then you pick a double deep up, get a run at the truck, step up onto the double on the ground, and lift the double up onto the first double on the bed, stacking doubles two high. Then hand unload in reverse at the other end. Very awkward to set down a double deep! My record was 35 minutes from the time I reached the orchard to untie, unload 72 colonies at 6 drops, tie off the truck, and start the engine (the older I get, the better I was). Whenever I could, I'd hire a laborer to help--much easier with two men. Unfortunately, I paid for that kind of lifting with years at the chiropractor--I wouldn't dare do it today! Nor would I recommend it for anyone else--I was young and dumb. In Calif, we don't need as much honey for wintering as in a double deep. But the ideal configuration depends upon the beekeeper. Since I sell lots of nucs, I run everything double deeps, or even triples in the almonds, so that I can split them down in March. I've wondered if the hobbyist might do well with medium, deep, medium for the brood chamber, so that he/she could reverse the mediums in spring for swarm control. But I've never tried. Randy **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 08:58:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Propolis Used to Treat American Foulbrood - NOT! In-Reply-To: <000601c91153$919c7f00$6402a8c0@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim suggested >please at least read the abstract of the cited paper. Jim, I have the greatest respect for your analyses and comments, and do not want to distract you from your honeymoon, but I think that we could take this suggestion even a step further, and actually read the entire paper before leaping to opinions! I do not have the English version, but I read the original Spanish version before it was sent for publication. > While the exclusion zone for the extract seems to be non-zero, one is forced to wonder what the exclusion zone for pure ethanol alone would be. The authors did indeed test negative controls of ethanol alone in petri dishes, and they found that ethanol alone did not display antibacterial property. > The paper addresses the use of a substance called an "ethanol extract of propolis" rather than propolis, so it should be clear that there is quite a bit of ethanol in the mix applied to the cultured AFB. As far as the amount of ethanol applied to the colonies in the field tests, they added 6% percent propolis extract (at 10% ethanol) to 1:1 sugar syrup. By my calcs, that results in a final solution of about half a percent alcohol--roughly equivalent to the amount in "nonalcoholic" beer. Since the alcohol would quickly evaporate when it was sprayed on a warm bee cluster, I really doubt that it had much direct effect upon the AFB bacteria in the colony. Before you respond, it is clear that the researchers should have added that half a percent of ethanol to the syrup of the controls, but they didn't. However, research by Dr Mark Goodman has also confirmed that alcohol is not effective for sterilization against AFB. >and I'm not about to spray my combs with any amount of ethanol, thank you very much Well, luckily for you, the authors also fed the substance in syrup! It was also effective applied in that manner. Funny that you would be concerned about getting such a tiny amount of alcohol evaporating on your combs, since I haven't heard you express concerns about the benzaldehyde and other ingredients in a bee repellent sold in this country. It appears that at least some extracts of propolis may very well have activity against AFB. This is not surprising, since the reason that plants exude the types of resins that bees collect is as a means of defense against bacteria and fungi that might attack plant wounds or new growth. Research by Dr. Marla Spivak has also demonstrated that certain propolises (propoli?) exhibit miticidal effect against varroa when ethanoloic extracts are painted onto the insides of the hives, or onto the frames, and allowed to evaporate before introducing bees and mites (she is currently having several cooperating beekeepers collect propolis from additional locales for testing). It would not be surprising if propolis is a component of the bee immune system at the colony level. Of course, its efficacy would likely vary with the plant species available. Most respectfully, Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 16:54:33 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Propolis Used to Treat American Foulbrood - NOT! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- randy oliver wrote: >[wrt proplis] its efficacy would likely vary with the plant species available. not only with the plants available, but by _how_ the bees handle the propolis. i don't think it would be surprising to learn that genetics and/or learned behavior cause some colonies to use propolis more or less effectively as an immune system component. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 14:32:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Pollen gamma irratiation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > > Reply: > Okay, then! How was the pollen then shown to be satisfactory for broodrearing? "If not feed, then the bees go broodless". Not a bad endorsement. Now there are issues like longevity and such but it would appear that feeding it trumps not feeding it - if you want bees to raise brood at that place and at that time. As to the bees having or not having to "re-work it" and add things, does it matter? after all - they either did or did not, and it was efficacious. (There is going to be some "working or re-working" of the stuff simply in the act of moving it around). Don't get me wrong it would interesting to know the particulars, but the proof is in the rearing of brood or the lack there of. The real question is: "Was there a quantifiable and significant difference in colonies fed irradiated pollen vs non-irradiated pollen, with respect to colony size, bee longevity, harvest, disease incidence etc" One might speculate what the results to that experiment would be but that and $3.65 will get you a gallon of gas . . . Keith **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 14:43:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Unlimited broodnest hives and migration. In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10809080747o386a4e9j871cdb59211587b5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, I thought maybe you would say you used the medium as a food chamber through an exotic box rotation. I have heard such methods from beeks at meetings. In the Mississippi Delta areas I see a deep and a medium used but only as you use. A friend which runs Delta Bee ( the old Robinson outfit of Kennet Missouri) Neal Bergman uses the config but always keeps the medium on top or at least always used to. In Florida I have seen bees run in singles and then a medium of honey placed on top during periods of dearth but not by commercial beeks. The subject has people on both sides. Some commercial beeks feel its cheaper to feed syrup and the others usually run 10 frames and do not want to have to give up a couple frames for and inside feeder. A super of bakery grade honey ( Brazilian pepper)will keep bees from starving during the several month dearth in fall without the trips to feed. As Randy will attest in areas which bees can fly everyday bees use lots of feed. California, Texas and Florida fit the description. Feed requirements of a strong hive in a single can be hard to figure. We took a 100 singles into California in November one year ( part of three semi loads) and the bees were heavy as we open fed before leaving. A month later the bees were about to starve. The hives in two deeps were fine but we feed anyway as we would not be back until time to move into almonds. bob Ps. If you feed sucrose and buy from one of the large plants I have news. My partner and I buy directly from the same place as those which advertise tanker loads in the bee magazines. I ordered 10 totes filled at their Kansas plant the first day it rains this week. We used to buy HFCS by the tanker load and have delivered as we could not get the 55% locally. Now our HFCS tanks sits empty and we simply go directly to the plant for sucrose and get filled. The current price for the dry weight is .46 at the plant. mixing is not free as the plant does add for mixing. into the .46 The price last year was .37 or .38 a pound * DRY WEIGHT*. How does the price compare to California Randy? When we were buying HFCS off the tanker we always were under your prices by .02 to .03 a pound. I refused to pay the price at the plant last year and purchased sugar in bags and mixed myself but was a hell of a job. To mix right I need to put in a huge hot water tank with a 170-180F. temp. Winter is coming fast this year and the nighttime temps tonight are expected to be in the low 40F. which is almost unheard of for this time of year. If members of the list know of some scrap sugar or a cheaper way to get sucrose please email me directly. Thank! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 16:29:17 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Propolis Used to Treat American Foulbrood - NOT! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let's be clear here. The headline claim, that "propolis" had some sort of effect on AFB, was clearly untrue. Propolis had to be "extracted", concentrated, and purified. There is no question that there are significant differences between the final result of the "extraction" process and the raw material that bees collect, so the only question here is how MUCH difference there is between actual propolis as used by bees and the substance used in this paper. My concern was underlined by one poster, who has already seems to have jumped to the conclusion that simply taking propolis and adding it to bee feed has had some sort of positive impact on her hives. As for the extent of the differences, Randy, who says he saw a pre-print of the paper, says: >> The authors did indeed test negative controls of ethanol >> alone in petri dishes, and they found that ethanol alone >> did not display antibacterial property. Kurt says, based upon a review of the final article: > I only scanned the paper quickly, but I did not see any mention > of negative controls (treatment with 10% ethanol) for comparison. Both statements can't be right. I can't decide, I don't have a copy of the article handy. Randy says: >> they added 6% percent propolis extract (at 10% ethanol) >> to 1:1 sugar syrup. By my calcs, that results in a final >> solution of about half a percent alcohol--roughly equivalent >> to the amount in "nonalcoholic" beer. Kurt says: > It looks like the final concentration of ethanol is 10%. > I don't know how that concentration may affect bees, but > in typical cell culture (more sensitive), you want to > keep the ethanol concentration below 0.1%. Well, which is it - a half a percent, or ten percent? Kurt quoted the paper: "This extract was diluted in ethanol 96% to a final concentration of 10% of the extract to form the PEE (starting solution)." Kurt seems to have the final word on this. I've read lots of similar ethanol extraction work, and off the top of my head, they work hard to get the ethanol out. I think that they had a lot more ethanol in there than most studies would consider prudent. Randy went on to say: > It appears that at least some extracts of propolis may > very well have activity against AFB. But "extracts of propolis" are VERY different compounds from "propolis", The ethanol certainly is one big difference, but the process of the extraction itself needs to be examined, as there are lots of volatiles in resins and sap. Now, if one were to compare the extractions with the "raw" resins and sap, one might find out how the process created this new substance which certainly seems to not propolis Sorry, but I'm not buying this work as reasonable. I think we need to look at the spore stage and veg stage in light of propolis, and ask why this "effect" is being seen, if the actual use of propolis by bees seems to have no effect on any stage of AFB. > the reason that plants exude the types of resins that bees > collect is as a means of defense against bacteria and fungi > that might attack plant wounds or new growth. The list of things that are effective controls for AFB is very short, and I am doubting these results, given the long history of AFB surviving nicely when directly coated by massive amounts of propolis of various types from various sources. > concerns about the benzaldehyde That's actual product disparagement. I think you also accused me of a felony there without even realizing it. Benzaldehyde is something that the DEA restricts carefully, as it is one of the components that are used to make methamphetamine. There's none readily available any more without doing tons of paperwork, nor is there ANY benzaldehyde in ANY bee repellents sold in the USA. I think Thorne in the UK sold benzaldehyde in little 20ml bottles for a while in the 1990s, but even they stopped selling it, as there is a much less-smelly product that works just as well. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 15:35:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Unlimited broodnest hives and migration. In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10809062303ibce2ea8p65e0eda4d4922dff@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, I said: >> >However there is a way to get much better honey production with doubles. Unless you do as Dee does ( and many did before the days of treatments) and harvest honey directly from the brood area then one runs the risk of a couple supers of honey being first placed in the brood boxes. Bees will not place honey for the most part in supers until all useable space is filled below. The exception is usually frames on the far sides of the box in a strong flow which can remain empty and the bees chimney up in the supers. The 1946 book "honey Getting" by Lloyd Seachrist covers many of the high points of making a big honey crop and points out the drawbacks of producing honey over double deeps. The commercial trick is to get the bees to fill both brood boxes with bees , brood and honey before the flow starts. Losing a super of honey into the deeps is common. Many times mother nature helps by providing minor flows which fill the deeps before the major flow. Still in most cases it helps the bottom line to feed the bees and harvest the honey in commercial beekeeping. A hive on a scale gives information as to the amount of honey in hives but is only a general idea. Complete removal of most frames in a hive a couple weeks before the main flow gives me a better idea. When to feed and when not to feed is always hard to figure in commercial beekeeping. Feeding is a big expense(and. getting bigger) as more farmers in the South are not planting cane plants and going to corn. Several processing plants went off line due to flooding in Iowa and I have been told the last hurricane took a processing plant off line in the south. One of the large plants is currently out of sugar for sucrose I was told today. With the bees in a single deep ( Florida) most honey ends up in the supers but feed is needed as soon as supers are pulled in most cases. The George imirie spacer can quickly pay for its cost and is very easy to make. In a heavy flow you get better honey production by letting the bees enter the supers directly. Sticks, rocks or simply propping the tops works. Miller thought lifting the brood chamber off the bottom board allowing the bees a bigger bottom entrance was the best method. I prefer to open up the supers and even raise the top allowing the forager bees entrance rather then through the brood chamber. Miller has pictures of his hives propped up off the bottom board. I find the top much easier and easy to close when the flow ends. YOU HAVE TO PLUG THOSE HOLES AFTER THE FLOW ENDS TO PREVENT ROBBING. However I have found that when all tops are propped you get a similar effect as pulling all hive lids in a robbing situation. If all hives are normal strength. Dinks always need entrances reduced as bees will always rob dinks at flows end. Bees robbing a "dink" is not a concern to me at year end as the honey went to other hives and I would have most likely depopulated anyway. Two "dinks" rarely make a decent hive and you can quote me! In other words when combined which "dink" queen will survive and be around in spring. If both hives have not grown or produced honey why keep around? Letting bees bring in all honey through a normal entrance and travel through the area the queen is trying to lay and nurse bees are trying to feed larva does not make sense. Sorry old masters! Doing such causes ( from my experience) the honey many times to get placed in brood cells which is not the place I want the honey placed. We all know that when the hives normal way of functioning gets upset many things happen such as swarming among others. Bees crawling over the queen and nurse bees trying to get into supers or at least transfer nectar to the house bees. Feeding bees in late spring when starving: I like being able in early spring to add frames of honey to a cluster. About the only time George Imirrie and I ever had a disagreement on BEE-L was over my using frames of honey to save a starving hive. We had to agree to disagree. I would hate to guess the number of clusters I have saved by placing a frame of honey in touch with a starving cluster. Acts like a blood transfusion. You see the bees opening cells and passing feed. The bees are usually too weak to move the several inches needed to reach the honey but instantly get the feed they need. North of me they use candy boards but I have never used those. I see candy boards as a valuable tool for feeding starving hives as bees usually move upwards when starving rather than to the side but of course at times will move sideways. The old timers ( older than me!) are predicating a cold hard winter in the Midwest. Myself and Bell Hill Honey are trying hard to get the bees ready for winter early. My help complains and says "what's the hurry?" but I have seen years when fall is skipped and we go into winter early. Those reading in California, Texas and Florida disregard the winter warning! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 18:46:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Stewart Subject: A Question About Organic Labeling and Hive Products In-Reply-To: <078AEE4658194C0782983D6F1B90F95A@bobPC> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I came across an article on a blog about a noticed an add from Glory Bee for several organic hive products. How can they label the products organic? Is there a way to see documentation (a friend of mine was asking me this). Last time I checked there wasn't even approved organic labeling for honey in place. Cheers! Richard Stewart Carriage House Farm North Bend, Ohio An Ohio Century Farm Est. 1848 (513) 967-1106 http://www.carriagehousefarmllc.com rstewart@zoomtown.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:49:55 -0700 Reply-To: gfcg7312003@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Unlimited broodnest hives and migration. In-Reply-To: <0794FB4B43B44F20AD09E5E4C31B11D8@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I continue to use the Dadant "jumbo" frames in about six hives.=A0 They are= about equal to a brood box and not quite a shallow.=A0 I custom built the = boxes to fit the frames. =A0 Why do I still use them?=A0 The frames were part of a large acquisition, an= d curiously, I thought I would try them.=A0 Further, I'm too cheap to not u= se something that is still usable. =A0 If I didn't have them, I likely wouldn't use them. =A0 Grant Jackson, MO=A0 Where I continue to attempt to overwinter in a single deep/m= ed and on my larger hives, double deeps. =A0 =A0=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 20:59:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Super Size ( not the Mac Meal) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankMany of us here in New England have converted to all mediums for = brood and honey. We even encourage new beeks to go that route, three for = the brood chamber. Spring rotation can be done with less chance of = splitting brood nest. In my 60's could handle these with a breeze but = now there is no more breeze. Plenty heavy enough when filled with honey, = sometimes almost wish they were shallows, don't think that would be to = practical, to much wooden pieces. Alden Marshall Hudson, NH=20 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 01:16:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Unlimited broodnest hives and migration. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I found reversing colonies on the *weaker* side slowed down their build-up (a minus). Reversing strong colonies significantly sped up build-up and possibly delayed swarm prep by about 3 weeks. These days I only reverse strong colonies if more bees are needed. I found transposing strong colonies with weaker ones more effective in swarm prevention and equalizing hives. [It's also easier, safer and quicker.] The strongest ones can be transposed 2-3 times and still produce five 8-framers of honey. The queens from these exceeding hives make the best breeding base for the next generation of queens. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 01:33:13 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Unlimited broodnest hives and migration. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...the old Dadant tall deep which I have used but I do not know of a single beek still using. Are there beeks on the list still using the size? I know it's popular with a small percentage of beekeepers in Poland. The most popular hive box in Poland is Wielkopolski though. The Wielkopolski frames are taller and narrower than Langstroth's but the overall surface area is about the same. The reason for the preference is that bees build-up quicker on taller frames. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 01:46:38 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Bees in trouble news brief. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=9588546&ch=4226724&src=news **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 20:32:18 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Question About Organic Labeling and Hive Products In-Reply-To: <14896987-D232-4D61-B3D5-4125C073EBC9@zoomtown.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Richard Stewart: There and no Federal organic labeling standards, and as far as I am concern= ed there won't be with soft chemicals, or acids, or treatments as needed, u= nneeded hospital yards, and inbreeding, and ......well you get the point. W= e're over 2,200 members now going for 2,300 with organicbeekeepers list for= getting back to zero treatments and away from artificial feeds...and as lo= ng as our numbers keep growing while others aren't then eventually things w= ill change around. =A0 As for Glorybee, well individual states do have organic standards though IM= POV they are quite needing, and foreign certifiers have been known to come = in too and say, yep, your organic though I certainly don't see it that way!= ........ =A0 But then what do I know and do I care,=A0as in the end, what works will tel= l the true story and ending, for long-haul. =A0 Dee A. Lusby =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 20:41:46 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Unlimited broodnest hives and migration. In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10809080747o386a4e9j871cdb59211587b5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy and Bob: Why lifting by hand from grouond? To trucks especially? Weren't you ever sh= own liftgates and kelly floor trucks=A0for saving backs? I've used both who= le life and noting hard and I still wheel 4-5 deeps loading and unloading..= ....... =A0 Might lift a super doing spring splits or during spring workup when boxes a= re not so bad, but then I lift normally 2 or 3 position and with thighs for= balance/stability in doing. But never from the ground. and I don't load th= em, for when that time comes you use floor trucks and lift gates for bulk l= oading. =A0 Feel sorry for both your backs.............that adds up over the years.....= ..but doens't seem like logical beekeeping practices for doing! =A0 Dee A. Lusby =A0 =A0=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:00:57 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis Used to Treat American Foulbrood - NOT! In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10809080858l72322cc5s36cd8332c164fdc4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy Oliver: It would not be surprising if propolis is a component of the bee immune system at the colony level.=A0 Of course, its efficacy would likely vary wi= th the plant species available. Reply: It has been written back in 1960s even when many antibiotics play out only = propolis is=A0left for working concerning human health, so why wouldn't it = enhance the bee immune system also as the broodnest is the heart of the hiv= e like a living liver working in a human the way the bees use it. And, yes,= its efficacy would vary very much but dependent upon cell size for many me= dicinal plants are small and tiny and LC bees just do not fit into them unf= ortunately, and with upsizing 40-60% depending upon cell size used for toda= y's foundations, you change size that much physically, you also change flig= ht and foraging parameters and that means for research then, you have to lo= ok at the whole picture, which would include propolis from natural sized ho= neybees in tune with Nature, vs those overlly enlarged to see was has been = artificially changed to the detrikment of the bees by man. Until this is do= ne for long-haul research, the=A0 propolis being looked at would be questionable not knowing the cell size of the honeybees in tests and what = size bees on that propolis was collected from, like it or not..............= For propolis collected from bees on an enlarged system, then I cannot see p= aralleling the real world for good scienctific results........... =A0 Dee A. Lusby=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 00:09:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Transposing Hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar writes: “I found transposing strong colonies with weaker ones more effective in swarm prevention and equalizing hives. [It's also easier, safer and quicker.] The strongest ones can be transposed 2-3 times and still produce five 8-framers of honey.” Waldemar, I am thinking of trying this with a couple of my hives that happen to be side by side, one of which is weak and getting weaker owing mainly to having its queen accidentally removed (it has a laying queen of its own making now) and the other is strong and getting stronger. What are the important considerations in this maneuver? How close do they need to be to each other or how far away from each other can they be? Is there a point at which the difference in strength of the two hives is so great that you would be weakening the strong hive more than the strengthening of the weak hive is worth? Is it best to do this when there is a strong flow on? Any important tips would be greatly appreciated. Anyone else want to opine on this subject? Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:11:10 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis Used to Treat American Foulbrood - NOT! Comments: To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com In-Reply-To: <000601c911f1$916cffc0$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim: Let's be clear here.=A0 The headline claim, that "propolis" had some sort of effect on AFB, was clearly untrue. Propolis had to be "extracted", concentrated, and purified. Reply: You know, I agree with you here concerning this research effort. But being = me, would like to add: When I and Ed used propolis in place of terrimycin '= 93-96 until we shook down for second regression from 5.0mm-5.1mm to 4.9mm t= op tolerance.......... =A0 Note: I simply took propolis from insides of topbars, endbars, and boxes...= ...AS IS but simply smelled of propolis and not plain wax. I froze it, and = simply ground it in a hand coffee mill into powder and mixed into granulate= d honey and put over clusters/broodnests needing help after I pulled the co= ncentration of AFB leaving bees and any combs with 6 cells of AFB or less s= till there...............Nothing hard, propolis simply scraped with probabl= y normal beeswax in it but smelled like propolis like most beekeepers colle= ct and didn't even wash it for the bees in hives. I simply frooze it and gr= ound it. So I don't see the propolis as purified here, though I am an organ= ic beekeeper with no dopes in hive having phased out even terrimycin long a= go and hence why we were doing this! =A0 Dee A. Lusby (also cheap, not wanting to buy TM)=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 06:24:05 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Unlimited Brood Nest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I use mostly a medium and a deep for a brood nest. This started because of my emphasis on comb honey where the brood nest must be very restricted to hope to produce more than one box of comb honey a hive. (Gosh, I can remember in the 60's wondering if I could sell all the comb honey I was producing. I did, but that included large amounts for Richard Taylor. Today, I can't even begin to produce all I sell.) A medium and a deep is will hold more than enough honey for overwintering here in the cold Northeast. I keep the deep on top to facilitate making early splits, but I also rotate boxes for swarm control. I mostly do not move bees, so weight is not a major consideration. I have tried three deeps and it is wonderful for swarm control. But a whole lot of lumber, and worthless for comb honey production. I have also tried two deeps with moving one deep elsewhere when it is time to put on comb honey supers. But it is a pain to find our which deep contains the queen. Someone told me to forget finding the queen and just give each deep a cell. I may try that. Two deeps sure works better than a deep and a medium for early spring swarm control. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 07:19:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: Unlimited broodnest hives and migration. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Earlier, Peter pointed out that largest colonies, although they do tend to produce better crops than smaller ones, are not necessarily, pound for pound, the best producers. This interesting observation leads me to ponder then “What is the optimum number of frames one can give to a split in spring?” Imagine one has unlimited number of frames to make splits with; what will be the optimum number of frames? As I ponder this question, I realize the various responses will depend on the time of split, the strain, the level of feeding, the intensity of localized flow, and the weather condition, among others. For example, a three- or four-frame split, under heavy-feeding, with drawn combs given, will make about a super of surplus ideally around here, give or take, but that’s just too labor intensive for the relatively small return. On the other hand, two splits made out of two deeps (10 frames each) don’t always outperform say, seven to eight-frame splits. I have not yet tried anything beyond ten-frame splits, however. What happens when you make, say, fifteen-frame splits? Typically I make splits for the following year, a delayed investment, knowing that it takes about two years for the splits to produce surplus as they must survive the first winter on their own since I do not feed the larger splits—-anything beyond seven frames. Invariably, during the first year of split, they store up enough to survive the winter, but not enough for me to rob. (Given the sugar price, I do not want to feed them) Under these conditions, thus, I must feed late swarm-captures in my area, nevertheless. Obviously, to maximize the flow, we need the maximum number of foragers just before the flow although I would prefer my bees to peak during the flow, not before. The “spring-thinned” parent colonies, with older queens (a year or two) tend to swarm after the flow in my operation, typically during the heat of late July, which I find interesting, because these swarms must rely on goldenrod and aster, two very unreliable nectar producers in my area, and in the south, goldenrod blooms are not as heavy as in the north. Yoon **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 04:29:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Propolis Component Protects Neurons Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Propolis Component Protects Neurons Caffeic Acid Phenethyl Ester Prevents Cerebellar Granule Neurons (CGNs) Against Glutamate-Induced Neurotoxicity Neuroscience, 2008 Sep 9;155(4):1098-105 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/09/propolis-component-protects-neurons.html Caffeic acid phenethyl ester (CAPE) is an active component of propolis obtained from honeybee hives and is found to have the following properties: anti-mitogenic, anti-carcinogenic, anti-inflammatory, immunomodulatory, and antioxidant… **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 08:08:43 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: A Question About Organic Labeling and Hive Products MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > How can they label the products organic? > Last time I checked there wasn't even approved > organic labeling for honey in place. Even though the National Organic Program may not have final rules for USDA "Certified Organic" for some specific commodities, including everything associated with beekeeping, they can obtain certification from one of the certification firms that are authorized by the USDA to do the actual work of inspecting the facilities and certifying commodities sold as "USDA Organic". Glory Bee appears to have paid QAI to certify things: http://www.qai-inc.com/0_0_0_0.php They say so on their web page where they explain "Organic": http://tinyurl.com/695oun or http://www.glorybeefoods.com/gbf/OrganicProducts.cfm?Token=70.18.28.78:{ts_2 008-09-09_02:58:09}-154835 While this clearly is not as impressive as the real USDA Organic Certification, the companies like QAI engage in quite a bit of chest pounding over how respected each of their own certifications are. In fact, there are so many, I can't imagine the consumer knows one from another. I doubt that any of them are "well respected" beyond their own parking lots. If you had the ability to prove that your hive products were organic (highly unlikely anywhere in the lower 48 US states, more possible in areas like Alaska, or Hawaii), you could get the same sort of approval if you were willing to both endure the expense and hassle, pay the up-front fees, AND pay a percentage of the sales price for the organic products to the certifying agency as yet another fee. If you are a very small operation, you can "self certify", and simply set up your own record-keeping system. The above really bothers me - the certifying agencies have a financial incentive to approve products that will sell in large volumes, and less to certify smaller producers. The way the money changes hands does not match the high-minded posturing of the various players, and that's always a problem just waiting to happen. > Is there a way to see documentation (a friend of mine was asking me this). QAI will provide some sort of independent confirmation that the certification was obtained, but the specific records associated with what you would buy, for example some wax, would have to come from Glory Bee themselves. They certainly have the documentation, because the main annoyance of dealing with organic certification is all the record-keeping required. I know, as Bee-Quick went through the process for a group of Organic Honey producers in Hawaii. In that case, the Organic Association had its own in-house certification entity, and simply approved it as a "permitted material", which is much less paperwork-intensive. http://www.bee-quick.com/organic_approval_bee-quick.pdf As soon as the USDA and NOP gets their respective acts together, I'll likely go for the USDA certification, and put the sticker on the label. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 08:37:55 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: unlimited brood nest hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ">>...the old Dadant tall deep which I have used but I do not know of a single beek still using." AFAIK, it is still widely used in the midwest, and Dadant still makes foundation and frames for it. Moreover, it is the 'standard' brood box in France, and possibly other European countries. Their winters are much milder than our own, and this can easily hold 80 pounds of honey. Where used, it is not reversed and supers are what we would call 'mediums'. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 08:53:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Timothy C. Eisele" Subject: Re: Unlimited broodnest hives and migration. In-Reply-To: <20080908.213313.13049.1@webmail09.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.net wrote: > > The reason for the preference is that bees build-up quicker on taller frames. > > This might be a dumb question, but do you think there would be any benefit from having frames that turn the foundation sideways, so that the long dimension runs up and down instead of side to side? That would at least eliminate the need for making custom foundation, although the custom frames might still be a hassle. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 23:12:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Unlimited broodnest hives and migration. In-Reply-To: <078AEE4658194C0782983D6F1B90F95A@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > How does the price compare to California Randy? Bob, I can't justify the time and expense of driving down out of the foothills to purchase sucrose syrup, or even to drive to the discount store. Mann Lake also sells totes of dry sugar cheap, but again, too far to make it worthwhile to haul. So I just order 1000 lbs worth of 25# sacks at a time from my local grocery two days in advance, and pick them up on the way back from outyards. I got 1000 lbs today for about $495 = 49.5 cents a lb. The bakery nearby can order 50 lb sacks for about the same, but the 25 lb sacks are really easy to handle. With a bit of practice, it is easy to tear the top off in one jerk. Randy **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 18:04:27 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Unlimited broodnest hives and migration. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...do you think there would be any benefit from having frames that turn the foundation sideways, so that the long dimension runs up and down instead of side to side? Do you mean transposing the width with the length of standard foundation? Dadant uses the modified aspect ratio from what I understand iaw with your thought. >From what I have seen in feral nests, the narrow but tall colonies do better than wide and low colonies. Strong colonies pretty much will handle equally well any aspect ratio cavity but the median and weaker colonies benefit from tall, continuous combs in better overwintering and spring build up. Waldemar PS. I have no experience with Dadant hives. It occurred to me that inspecting Dadant frames might be less than optimum (extra heavy, greater possibility of rolling the queen when lifting frames out...). **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 18:28:13 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Transposing Hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>[Transposing hives to balance populations.] What are the important considerations in this maneuver? Take care not to have the stronger hive's flying workforce overwhelm the weaker unit and kill the queen. If I am doubtful about the outcome, I transpose about an hour before sunset to have some bee exchange before the night. The next exchange will still be slow in the morning, picking up speed as the days rolls on by which time the weaker unit will have picked up sufficient bees that will have acquired its scent. I never transpose in the middle of the day. >>How close do they need to be to each other or how far away from each other can they be? They can be as close as next to each other but you will have a greater exchange of bees if the hives are at least several feet apart. >>Is there a point at which the difference in strength of the two hives is so great that you would be weakening the strong hive more than the strengthening of the weak hive is worth? This may only be an issue in the spring. You don't want to depopulate a hive to the point where brood will get chilled at night. I like to start transposing at the start of the regular swarming season. I usually don't start transposing till 1st week in May. >>Is it best to do this when there is a strong flow on? It's better but not really not necessary. We usually have a pretty good flow in the spring when I transpose the production colonies but I will transpose nucs at any time in warm season. >>Any important tips would be greatly appreciated. I typically transpose after sunset when the bees have stopped flying and the cooler temps drive all the bees into the hives. I close the entrances and move the hives around with a hand truck. It's a rather easy task and it does not disturb the inner workings of the hives. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 11:13:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Propolis Used to Treat American Foulbrood - NOT! In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10809091109q68aaedecmb630e0293821c171@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim said:> concerns about the benzaldehyde > That's actual product disparagement. I think you also accused > me of a felony there without even realizing it. Oh my gosh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to disparage you in any way! And I certainly do not consider you to be a felon! I didn't realize that benzaldehyde is used in meth labs--I have enough trouble buying Sudafed for my hayfever. And I have nothing against benz--I eat plenty in almond cookies, and get it all over my hands when I prune my peach trees. And have used it straight in fume boards. I realize how poorly I phrased my questions to you, and I apologize. Let me try again. Jim, you are clearly an expert on vapors in bee hives, and on smoke in bee hives, and I greatly respect your knowledge. My question to you should have been, Based upon your knowledge of vapors in a bee hive, and now knowing what amounts of ethanol were used, and knowing that ethanol has little effect upon AFB spores, nor apparently upon the vegetative stage, do you still feel that it is likely that the small amount of ethanol applied would have had any effect on AFB in an in vivo trial within field colonies? And a second question: When I was researching how to dissolve thymol into syrup, I found that ethanol has a relatively low toxicity to insects in general. Now that you know the amounts involved, and based upon your knowledge of physics and biology, are you still of the opinion that adding the low concentrations of ethanol in the unfortunately named P.E.E. (this name could result in serious misunderstandings of instructions for application of the product to the hive), would have any probable deleterious effects on the bees that we should worry about? I apologize again for the poor phrasing of my previous post. Sincerely, Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 17:53:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: A Question About Organic Labeling and Hive Products Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At least is the coop intensive market place of the Twin Cities Mn, organic honey is irrelevant. Local raw honey trumps organic these days IMO . Unless you are intending to sell to Whole Foods or some other national chain I'm not sure what's in it for the typical honey producer/packer. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 22:59:34 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Farmers See 'Mark of the Beast' in RFID Livestock Tags MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Given the posting on the USDA National Animal Identification System (NAIS) at the end of August, I thought this might be of interest, an article entitled: "Farmers See 'Mark of the Beast' in RFID Livestock Tags". http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/09/farmers-decryin.html The moment I saw the headline, I thought to myself: "Yes, I agree completely. Any livestock tag would, by definition, be exactly a "Mark Of The Beast", now wouldn't it? :) As a beekeeper, I hope that no one writes a regulation that forces me to tag each and every one of MY livestock. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 06:27:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Valuing Insect Pollination Services MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Insect pollination is not only a critical ecosystem function but also an essential input in the production of a host of agricultural crops grown world-wide. However, the bulk of the world's staple foods are wind-pollinated, self-pollinated or propagated vegetatively. These authors therefore argue that global food security will not be threatened if insect pollinators decline or disappear. -- Valuing Insect Pollination Services with Cost of Replacement Mike H. Allsopp, et al PLoS ONE | www.plosone.org 1 September 2008 | Volume 3 | Issue 9 | e3128 http://tinyurl.com/6x7bre **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 08:11:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Apitherapy Course to be Offered in North Carolina MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ENKA - Asheville-Buncombe Technical Community College's Natural Products Business class "Healing from the Hive" will be held 12:30-3:30 p.m. Sept. 16 and 23 in Haynes 128 on the Enka campus. Hive products such as honey, propolis, royal jelly, and bee pollen are valuable medicines. Learn how people have used these gifts from the honeybees for centuries as well as recent scientific validation of their efficacy. Topics will cover family care, first aid, and marketing honey. Registration is $15. To register, visit http://www.abtech.edu/sbc/class_schedule.asp **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 07:18:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: COLONY LOSSES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Extraordinary colony losses have been reported in early 2007 from several eastern provinces of Turkey. Factors not related to colony losses We found no significant relation between colony losses of beekeepers and foundation comb used, bee feed type or source, source of queens, pesticide use, urban vs rural areas, presence-absence of industry, or presence-absence of known bee diseases. Factors related to colony losses We found that bee genetics or race of the bee was important even when the geographic region influences were statistically controlled. Highest colony losses in 2006–2007 winter occurred in A.m. caucasica from Turkey, and A.m. carnica or ligustica of European origin. The hybrid queens from Turkey, or local races, especially A.m. anatoliaca, showed the lowest levels of colony losses. Local genetic variation appears to be important in reducing the impact of any factor that may induce the observed colony losses, highlighting significance of preserving and studying honey bee genetic resources. Turkey, unlike United States, has a large bee genetic source. There are at least 5 bee races in Turkey -- PRELIMINARY SURVEY RESULTS ON 2006–2007 COLONY LOSSES IN TURKEY Tugrul GRAY, et al Uludag Bee Journal August 2007 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 22:04:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Unlimited broodnest hives and migration. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yoon asked: > "What is the optimum number of frames one can give to a split > in spring?" > Hi Yoon, I can only speak as a Calif beek. Given that there is a buildup flow on, time appears to be the most important factor. Back calculate from the start of the main honeyflow. The closer to the flow, the larger the necessary split. The sigmoid growth curve of colony pop has the greatest slope at about 10 frames of bees, so this would be the ideal size to keep splitting to. For my operation, I like to split just as the first colonies begin producing swarm cells. Any split less than 5 strong frames (once the queen is mated and laying) builds slowly. A 5-framer will explode 3 weeks after the queen begins laying. I know a lot about 5-framers since I use 5-frame nuc boxes. But this year I used a new style of split deep, so I could produce some 6 and 7 frame nucs. They really took off! Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 17:01:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Bayer - Movento - New Systemic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Movento is a new systemic Bayer product for use on citrus, nut trees and apples. Excerpts of interest from product label Environmental Hazard (section of label) "This product is potentially toxic to honey bee larvae through residues in pollen and nectar, but not to adult honeybees. Exposure of adult bees to direct treatment or residues on blooming crops can lead to effects on honeybee larvae". Application Information (section of label) " Movento is a suspension concentrate formulation and is active primarily by ingestion against immature insect life stages, in addition, fertility of adult female insects may be reduced". email me offline for complete product label pdf file **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 00:27:20 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Local pollen price. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What would you consider a good price for local bee pollen? Thank you. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 22:05:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Unlimited broodnest hives and migration. In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10809092204x11cb4951s4f34d0d50197bec@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Yoon, Randy & All, > Yoon asked: > >> "What is the optimum number of frames one can give to a split >> in spring?" Really depends on your goals. Chasing a honey crop can be troublesome in the Midwest. An old saying and one spoke often of by Michal palmer is one needs to choose between splits and a honey crop. The reason Michael makes fall splits. Brother Adam came to the same conclusion. Make up late and let the split grow at a slow pace after cold weather is past and nectar and pollen coming in.. Those selling package bees say they will likely make a honey crop the first year. I say maybe if you want to run in a single and add the second box after the flow. Not usually when the flow is early ( and ends early) and the package is placed on foundation and not fed heavily. Sucrose figures today at approx. three fifty a gallon. HFCS a buck cheaper. Feeding and trips to feed are getting expensive(fuel) without even figuring the labor. My method if the hive is not used for main honey flow to pull 2 brood and nurse bee frames from a strong hive building for the flow by moving the frames above a queen excluder less bees and let the nurse bees come up and cover. No worry about losing a queen and only removing young bees ( better queen acceptance) . After placing in the single deep brood box with *at least* a full frame of pollen and honey I *double check to make sure the donor hive queen is not in the new hive. When done in warm weather I eliminate the five frame nuc and use a single with a reduced entrance. Saves labor and because on pallets I simply move into a holding yard. Important: I mark a number on the new hive which corresponds with the donor hive. If I find the queen from the donor hive not a problem as I can return her or simply drop a new queen in the donor hive. I have used the system for decades. Do this as the main flow starts. Forget about the hive after the queen is accepted. I always add plenty of honey and pollen. After the main flow is over the bees are strong in a single. ( 4-6 weeks) Then add a second box and feed for winter. When I evaluate each new hive at flows end all dink queens get a hive tool and their box is used as a second box for a better hive. Many queens not pass my grading process. The above was also recommended by George Imirie in his "Pink Pages" with the exception of heavy feeding if placed on foundation. I like to replace the feeding by starting later and using a honey flow. My plan will also work using 4 frames drawn and the rest foundation but the growth is slower but less chance of a swarm if using Italian bees ( my preference). You get better queens from most queen producers in the second or third round of queen rearing in my opinion. Early queens are poorly mated * at times* and cold weather in early spring can be hard on a 2 frame start. I use the same formula as Randy when trying to make a honey crop off the start in the same year ( which I have spoke about in detail before and in the archives). bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:04:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Jim_?= Subject: Gotham City Beekeeper Cooperative Annual 9/11 Observance Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As has been tradition every year since 9/11/2001, the members of the Gotham City Beekeeper Cooperative will party in Manhattan until everybody falls down, or until they run out of tequila, whichever comes last. All are invited. Our reasoning should be obvious - If we don't party on 9/11, then the terrorists will have already won. This year, we will be hitting rooftop bars, starting with A60 (60 Thompson St) at 9ish, and and then moving to the Library Hotel (299 Madison Ave) rooftop lounge at midnight, which has a fireplace to take the forecasted chill off. If both places are dull, we will move to the "High Bar" at the Gramercy Park Hotel (2 Lexington Ave) Any and all beekeepers are welcome, but please RSVP, as A60 still has their brain-damaged "guest list" policy in force, still hoping in vain that an actual celebrity might show up. Neither traffic nor parking will be a problem, as a significant fraction of Manhattan wimps out and finds a lame excuse to be somewhere else every year. Public transit will run like clockwork due to a light passenger load, and the overly polite, painfully young, neatly dressed, and heavily-armed members of the NYPD will be in every subway station, on every subway train, and on nearly every street corner in full tactical gear. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:05:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Transposing Hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Anyone else want to opineon this subject? Steve, we do this all the time in spring to equalize buildup, esp of new colonies. But first, always check to make sure the weak one isn't diseased! We swap any time of day, anywhere in the yard. We never notice queen loss, but there is generally a light flow on. You could always cage the queen of a really weak colony with a candy plug. When we move out yards of new colonies in spring, we often do it during daylight, and leave a few week ones to pick up the drift. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 08:44:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Bayer - Movento - New Systemic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Brian > "This product is potentially toxic to honey bee larvae ... I've been sent the PDF of the label from a concerned beekeeper. There were two types of use envisaged (and approved): tree fruits and nuts, and vine fruits, after petal fall, and leafy vegetables of the type that would not be flowering. I guess that the company and the regulators acknowledge the danger to bees and so agree that it will only be used in situations where exposure to bees will not occur? all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 09:49:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Bayer - Movento - New Systemic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian quoted: > "This product is potentially toxic to honey bee larvae through residues in > pollen and nectar, but not > to adult honeybees. Exposure of adult bees to direct treatment or residues > on blooming crops can > lead to effects on honeybee larvae". >From FAQs: http://www.bayercropscienceus.com/products_and_seeds/insecticides/movento.html Q. Will Movento have any negative effects on benefi cial insects or honeybees? A. Movento is quite compatible with benefi cial arthropod species and is an ideal choice for use with Integrated Pest Management (IPM) programs. Studies have shown minimal risk to benefi cial insects including predacious bugs, parasitic wasps, lacewings, and ladybird beetles. In addition, no effects on pollinators have been observed. Some inconsistency there? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 07:40:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Unlimited broodnest hives and migration. In-Reply-To: <8227A38D8F6C4756A02121B21B592A93@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thanks, Bob, great points! Let me add some more: Bob's point about using singles rather than nuc boxes to avoid the labor of later transferring is a good one if you're making a lot of nucs. I mentioned that we've been experimenting with various ways of using a division board to make up our nucs in singles. One aspect of this method that impresses me is the amount of time saved when going from a nuc to a single--you can often save a step. Saving steps is everything in commercial (as Bob keeps pointing out). When we transfer 5-frame nucs, we pick up two outside frames together to move, then pick up the next three together. You get a chance to look at a center brood frame that way to check for laying pattern and disease, but you've only split the nuc in one place. Less queen loss, since you are only placing frames back together at on place. Also much faster! I still love my old 5-frame nuc boxes. They are a very easy unit to load up by hand, move to outyards, then make up into singles on site. We make them up with only four frames, then add the fifth two weeks later when we check for queen mate out. The fifth frame comes from unmated nucs. Another point is, as Bob noted, is that there is a world of difference between starting on foundation, or starting on drawn comb. We also mark the donor colony on nucs as Bob does, but only if she is a potential breeder that we missed. The "up through an excluder" method of getting queen-free young bees that Bob mentioned works great, but I don't often use, since it requires a second trip to the outyard. I have used that method also by taking shook frames of brood and honey, making up side-by-side nucs in a single with a divider, then placing the double nuc single over an excluder of a third colony to pick up bees (steal brood from some colonies, bees from others). My buddy Keith Jarret uses a similar method in January to split his huge colonies before almonds! However, we don't often use the above, since we practice "yard trashing," in which all strong colonies are broken down into nucs. We generally get a honey crop off those nucs, or at least draw out a deep super of foundation and fill it with honey above them. Yard trashing is extremely fast--two of us easily produce a nuc a minute until the truck is full. Again, location is everything. Mike Palmer/Kirk Webster make small nucs late in the season to overwinter. I really like this idea--probably the best method in general. However, in Calif we don't have any late nectar/pollen flow. There are also issues with whether you can take those nucs into almonds. Last point is that splitting can be an effective method to help manage varroa. The break in brood cycle really sets back the mite population. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 16:30:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: Local pollen price. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit in the mpls area bulk B-pollen in a bin at a coop store is $12-$14 a pound packaged is typically higher **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:13:41 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Local Pollen Price MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I wholesale mine in a case of twelve 8 ounce jars for $84, and easily sell out by Christmas. I also retail the same 8 ounce jar at farmers markets for $10. (Eight ounce of pollen fills a one-pound Queenline or Classic jar.) Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:37:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: On the other side of the pond MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline *http://tinyurl.com/4edtlg* http://tinyurl.com/4hhxo3 *http://tinyurl.com/4yll2g* -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:45:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: on this side of the pond MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://tinyurl.com/67cshr http://tinyurl.com/3eom7r http://tinyurl.com/663n9z http://www.misco.com/ MISCO Digital Honey Refractometer is designed for government honey inspectors, professional beekeepers, honey producers, honey mixers, honey brokers, or anyone requiring the absolute most accurate, repeatable readings of moisture content and percent solids in honey In theory, even honey made from oleanders' nectar is poisonous http://tinyurl.com/4ekoap -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 22:33:19 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bayer - Movento - New Systemic In-Reply-To: <608765.43979.qm@web86206.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay, see the after petal fall and when veggies not blooming,....but what a= bout other plants around these planted? like blooming weeds for example? Of= course nothing else in area when appled or used that might soak it up. =A0 Dee A. Lusby =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 22:36:39 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Interesting - Iron Age Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Recent interesting post on organics list........Wonder what size the comb i= s by rhombic measurements? =A0 Dee A. Lusby =A0 =A0 http://www.boingboing.net/2008/09/02/iron-age-beekeeping.html =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:11:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Mike_Bassett?= Subject: mite-way II Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have used since it was approved with no problem, anyone know if the formular or pads have changed?? I have never had bees and brood die using the product. I placed on hives last Wed. evening, temps were close to 50 degree faren., came back in the morning and had dead bees on the landing boards, 19 hives, temp overnight was in the low 40's, checked agian a little while ago and bees are still dying at two locations, temp has not gone above 78 degrees but has been humid. It has even turned the weed at the bottom board entrances white, looks like I sprayed with roundup but didn't. I do have a heavier mite load than I have seen in a number of years, but no pms or deformed wing?? would seeem than all the rain we have had this year and the bees not being able to fly has caused the mites to explode!!!! even hives started from nucs are loaded with varoa. thanks mike bassett n.y. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 11:02:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: mite-way II In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike & All, Without looking and taking a few samples I hate to venture a guess but really have no choice. 1. I do not believe the mite away two is the problem. I would look at other possible reasons for the die off. I think the die off is simply happening at the same time as your treatment. The only time mite way has killed brood ( my personal experience) has been in temps over 90F and then a small amount only really noticed when looking carefully. Bill Rusika in Canada has a huge amount of experience with formic acid and has traveled the world speaking on the subject. Bill has always said from our first conversation that seeing a *small amount* of brood kill simply shows the formic dose is correct. The brood kill spoke of by beekeepers with formic is related to eggs and larva (from my experience) and only happens *in my opinion* when temps are over 90F. *and* in the first 7 days of treatment. I have *never* seen brood damage in the last 14 days even if temps climb above 90F. Both Randy O. and myself report similar brood kill with the 50 ml, apigard dose in the first few days of treatment in hot weather. The kill (my opinion) does not happen with the 25ml dose. David Vanderdusen as well as Bill R. ( mite gone pads) and I have been friends and on a first name basis for many years. David V. , Bill R. might comment or Medhat N. as all monitor BEE- and have better knowledge than myself on use of formic. Unlike some of my fellow commercial beeks I only use mite away 2 & and apigard. I rotate use and this fall I am using apigard at the rate of three 25ml doses at 7 day intervals. The maker said the label would be changed to three 25 ml. doses but the label is still the same. Three doses is more work but legal and save money if doing a large number of hives. Less brood kill at high temps and *in my opinion* better efficacy. Both Randy Oliver ( ABJ article) and myself ( BEE-L) recommended the three doses *based* on our testing. The apigard maker representative said on BEE-L last year the change would happen. Max why no change? Also why are you still using those phony little plastic scoops which are not accurate? Max monitors BEE-L. I use mite away 2 in spring. Our Missouri hot weather at fall treatment time is why I *usually* use apigard most of the time in fall but i did use the formic product in fall a few years ago with success. I think both products work when applied correctly *and* before varroa loads climb over threshold. Neither has the killing power (my opinion) that apistan & checkmite had when first released. Knowing what I know now I would nicer use those products again. Their use cost dearly in time and money changing all my comb. Sincerely, Bob Harrison **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 09:48:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: mite-way II In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Mike, I put on a number of pads in some outyards the past few days. Our weather is at or over the upper temperature limit--low to mid 80's F. I'll check back to let you know if I see anything of note. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 12:34:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Jim_?= Subject: Re: mite-way II Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Treat the problem just as if it were a pesticide kill: 1) Sample the dead bees, get them in a ziplock and frozen. A hundred from each hive would be ideal, one bag per hive. 2) Ditto for the whitish dead-looking grass. Photos of the grass (to show that only grass in front of entrances was bleached) would also be a big help. Lots of things can kill bees, but only a very few things can bleach grass, so I'd take a lot of photos and samples of the grass. 3) Jot down the lot number on the Mite-Away II container, and perhaps post it here. Your description of bleached grass tends to support a massive "overdose" of formic, so the problem may be as simple as a "bad batch" of the stuff, where the Formic Acid was simply not diluted enough or not mixed as thoroughly enough. 4) Contact NOD Apiary Products, as they have taken pains to explain how easy and fool-proof their products are, and should be given the opportunity to address your complaint. Sounds to me like they owe you at least an explanation. Your temps certainly were not too hot, and you've used the product before, so my wild guess is that there might be a "bad batch" of product out there, where mixing was insufficient, and some pads got too much formic. (This implies that other pads in that same batch got not enough formic). Please post the batch number. Others might want to hold off on using it until NOD has a chance to review the situation. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 18:58:24 -0400 Reply-To: ik Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ik Subject: Re: mite-way II In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike and All, I've been using Mite-away II for a few years now here in Ontario. This year with my Russian bees there are fewer mites falling than my Carniolans, with all hives dropping fewer mites than other years Mike, so I appear to be the opposite of you. I had thought that all this rain had slowed the mites down. It sure had an impact on the honey as I'm down 20%. I have always experienced a few dead bees and brood out front and this fall is no exception. All hives seem to have 5-15 dead out front, maybe a bit more but not much. Never been a problem for me. Kent **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 19:03:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: mite-way II Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike I agree with Jim on this, dead grass in front of the hives is a very serious indicator of something gone wrong. And the first place to go about it should be the manufacturer. They may need to recall the product if it is faulty and the sooner the better, before others are "burned" pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 19:47:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Mike_Bassett?= Subject: Re: mite-way II Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 12:34:48 -0700, Jim wrote: >2) Photos of the > grass (to show that only grass in front of entrances was > bleached) would also be a big help. I'll take pictures of the grass tomorrow and post here if I can figure out how > >3) Jot down the lot number on the Mite-Away II container, > and perhaps post it here. Because the huricane changed our weather, I had to pull of the acid this a.m. but will be putting back on tomorrow a.m. I had two lot numbers bought from dadant 08032 and 08038 since I used the buckets to put the chemical into I can't tell which or both I used. > >4) Contact NOD Apiary Products, as they have taken pains to > explain how easy and fool-proof their products are, and > should be given the opportunity to address your complaint. > Sounds to me like they owe you at least an explanation I sent an email to them at the same time I posted to bee-l, but don't expect a response until this week. I'm not complaining, I think the dead bees are covered by the label, just never had it happen, nor the grass. > >Your temps certainly were not too hot, and you've used the >product before, I also had one pad left over from last year, the ones this year were colored blue, the old pad was clear. when I pulled the pads the hive that had the clear pad didn't have the same problem with the grass being white. another beekeeper has the same lot number and he will be treating next week, so we will see what happens. I'm using apigard on the rest of my hives tomorrow as the temp's are expected to go up. I also checked last years records and the temp's last year were higher than the temps during the first few days this year. One possiblility is that noramlly I treat later, if temps are to high i do one treatment of apigard, then do mite-way when temps are ok, this normally puts the mite-way treatment after goldenrod flow, the white grass is in a fan like shape out from the entrance of the hive, which could be the bees drying the honey, so its a possibility that since they normallly aren't faning later in the year I wouldn't get the same white grass. thanks mike bassett **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************