From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:13:31 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.9 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 863154909A for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y7S017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0810B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 148314 Lines: 3527 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 03:32:39 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: NZ News Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit imho, the best thing they could do is move all the managed colonies out of the area. setup swarm traps in 2 years (??3, ???4). whatever ends up in the traps is worth looking at. at least they didn't poison them (which was the plan). deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:35:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kirk_Jones?= Subject: formic pad application query... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bee-L list, I'd like to thank all contributors who share their thoughts and experience on the forum. My purpose is writing is to elicit others experience with formic. We are trying out formic for the first time. We have tried many things over the years to keep our bees healthy and have been quite successful the last few years. We do ship bees from Michigan to Florida and California every year, so we consider ourselves lucky(knock on wood here)to put that stress on our bees and still have healthy bees. Back to formic. I am trying meat pads that I picked up from Paper-pac Industries. www.paperpakindustries.com I am using the chicken pads that are supposed to hold 90+ grams of juice, but I find that they hold about 60+ grams well. (65% formic) I am putting 116 of this particular pads in a 5 gallon bucket and adding 2 gallons of 65% formic. I am also going to try another product they carry, a pad with a poly like covering with perforations on one side. One of the larger pads of this type will hold about 40+ grams and I will try two of these per treatment. This pad may release slower. I put a pad on a double deep last friday and found about 80 mites on monday morning. I cleaned the tray and regreased it on monday and checked it tuesday morning(24 hours later) and found about 20 more adults. Btw, it's in the 60's here now. I was happy with the results on laying the pad directly on the top bars. The knockdown was after a test hard miticide treatment two weeks ago. I don't know exactly what to make of the results so far and will just guess that formic is killing mites that were resistant to chemical. I like what I see. Our guys didn't complain about handling the formic under the cool conditions outdoors. I didn't mind diluting the 90% formic and preparing buckets of pads. I don't want to build thousands of riser rims and spend a pile of money on expensive application pads if I don't have to. Btw, we're using thymol spring and fall. We mix our own in powdered sugar and crisco and apply it on the back of the hive on the top bars. The bees eventually remove most of it. We also use a bit of tea tree and eucalyptus oil too in the mix. I am intrigued by the suggestion to tincture propolis and add it to feed. I also have mixed in some thymol in feed to preserve it as Randy has pointed out. We have always added something to our feed to preserve it, generally bleach. Thanks for your contributions, Randy. I like Bob's promotion of new combs in the hives. We are doing that too. It's nice to have the money now with the price of honey up. I like James F's .role of devil's advocate. Just kidding you, James. Any idea's or thought's would be encouraged. Kirk www.sleepingbearfarms.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:41:08 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: formic pad application query... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Ontario Beekeepers Association worked with University of Guelph on an approach using Homsote board in perforated Ziplock veggie bags, and they may have some tips that may be of value. There was a long and very detailed discussion about this on the UseNet group sci.agriculture.beekeeping, which can be searched with "Google Groups". The main issue is temperature versus "dose". For any specific pair of day/night temperatures, there is a does that will kill the most mites without killing bees. Problem is, no one has bothered to plot enough points to draw the line on the graph that would be useful for a homebrew formic user. I'd check out Marion Ellis and his work with Oxalic acid at U Nebraska. Easier, safer for employees, and cheaper on a per-hive cost basis than formic. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:55:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Canadian Honey Council asking for $50 million In-Reply-To: <000f01c928ab$0f34b180$0801a8c0@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Never quit listening to anyone, especially > to those who have credentials in science. > Look hard at the motivation of anyone who > demands that you ignore contrasting views. Jim, I'd like to thank you for what I feel was a particularly excellent post! Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:50:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: formic pad application query... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:41:08 -0400, James Fischer wrote: >I'd check out Marion Ellis and his work with Oxalic acid >at U Nebraska. Easier, safer for employees, and cheaper >on a per-hive cost basis than formic. > with the "crisis" in bee land whatever happened to the label for OA? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:45:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Mike_Bassett?= Subject: Re: formic pad application query... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:35:25 -0400, Kirk Jones wrote: >Our guys didn't complain about handling the formic under the cool conditions >outdoors. I didn't mind diluting the 90% formic and preparing buckets of pads. any idea when you include your time etc how much each application cost compared to mite-wayII? same with the tymol you are using? thanks mike bassett syracuse n.y. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 20:53:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: camelina Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I never heard of this oilseed before, but ran across an article how it is being looked at as a low input crop that can be grown with no tillage, or herbicide and produces an edible oil and also valuable as a bio diesel source. http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1993/v2-314.html It is highly suited to the upper midwest states like SoDak, Nodak and Mn. That got me thinking if this took off as a viable crop what the nectar potential might be for beekeepers in this region. Its from the Brassicaceae family which includes mustard and rapeseed so one would think it might be a nectar producer. Anyone have any information or experience with this plant? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 19:28:54 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: formic pad application query... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > with the "crisis" in bee land whatever > happened to the label for OA? Since Marion Ellis did his work, http://tinyurl.com/42j3tc or http://www.epa.gov/pesp/regional_grants/2005/R7-2005.htm not all that much has happened. By "not all that much", I mean "absolutely nothing at all". But we can all take heart in this advice from the EPA: http://tinyurl.com/3tjnde or http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/4070fact.pdf Which says, in part: "Oxalic acid is exempt from the requirement of a tolerance (or legal residue limit) when it is used as an inert ingredient in pesticide formulations that are applied to growing or harvested crops. EPA also is regulating oxalic acid under its Inerts Strategy." So one CAN use Oxalic Acid today under the regulations that exist if one reads carefuly. One applies a 3.5% solution of oxalic acid crystals dissolved in 1:1 sugar syrup to make the INERT carrier solution, and add a single drop of whatever ACTIVE ingredient one has chosen to kill mites. For an ACTIVE ingredient, one might choose anything from the fabled Food-Grade Mineral Oil to Formic Acid, to the melted wax from one of Dee Lusby's magical small cells. One can apply the solutions to the top bars holding the crop of wax one is growing down in the brood chambers, where bees are most enthusiastic about drawing new wax quickly. I tend to harvest the 2 oldest frames of wax from each brood chamber every spring, so I apply 50ml of the solution to the top bars of 2 frames in the lowest brood chamber. It does a WONDERFUL job of repelling the wax moth, and protecting my spring wax harvest. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. :) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:19:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] camelina MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Jim Smith [mailto:jims@cot.net] Sent: Thu 2008.10.09 23:47 Camelina is being tested at the OSU agriculture experiment station in Klamath Falls, OR. (I worked there until last July) I have bees at the station and gained a good crop of honey, however, there were other = species of oil seed in trials that contributed. I did notice bees working the = crop. http://oregonstate.edu/dept/kbrec/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 20:57:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: formic pad application query... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Brion, I did check with Dr Ellis, and registration attempts have been dropped. I like Jim's suggestion that it be added as an inert ingredient. Alternatively, it is apparently legal to use to bleach the top bars of your frames. If you happen to miss each stroke, and accidentally dribble it over the bees, I'm not sure that you'd be breaking any laws. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:17:41 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: formic pad application query... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> not all that much has happened. >> By "not all that much", I mean "absolutely nothing at all". > I did check with Dr Ellis, and registration attempts have been dropped. The ABF seems to think that they can get it registered by asking the EPA nicely. See Continuing Resolution 13: http://www.abfnet.org/node/10 (Note to novice beekeepers: Newcomers to the art of beekeeping may confuse the acroynms "ABF" and "AFB". One is a scourge of beekeeping that costs beekeepers thousands every year and is impossible to get rid of, while the other is a brood disease. [Its a joke, folks, just a joke.]) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:18:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Bee Viruses in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline [The] Spanish honeybee industry has been affected during the last seven years by a progressive disappearance of bees. Several factors are likely to be responsible for the observed high rate of bee mortality including infection by several viruses, some of which have recently been isolated in Spain. Samples from 294 bee colonies located in 14 of the 15 regions in which continental Spain is administratively divided were collected from 2004 through 2006. Each sample was obtained from a different beekeeper; some of the samples were located in the same geographical area, but no more than one sample from the same bee colony was analyzed. At the time of the sample collection, most (69.38%) of the bee colonies presented a wide range of clinical signs compatible with infection by at least one of the viral diseases assessed here. Recorded clinical signs included bloated abdomens, disorientation, and weakness, which ultimately led to the depopulation of the colony. -- Analytical sensitivity and specificity of a RT-PCR for the diagnosis and characterization of the spatial distribution of three Apis mellifera viral diseases in Spain Deborah Kukielka, et al Apidologie (2008) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:15:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glen Glater Subject: bees in a home in Pescadero, CA, anyone want to extract them? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Anyone out there interested in a free hive of bees? A buddy has bees in his attic, and is looking for someone who wants to extract them rather than kill them off. Any takers? --glen ----------------------------------------------------------------- Glen B. Glater mailto:glen@oldmoose.com So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself--nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. Franklin Delano Roosevelt, March 4, 1933 Out of life's school of war---What does not destroy me, makes me stronger. Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900) Looking for a 2008 tax deduction? http://www.ridingtowardacure.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 08:30:50 +1000 Reply-To: Trevor Weatherhead Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Analytical sensitivity and specificity of a RT-PCR for the > diagnosis and characterization of the spatial distribution > of three Apis mellifera viral diseases in Spain > > Deborah Kukielka, et al > Apidologie (2008) Peter, what were the three viruses? This paper is not on their website as yet. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 03:49:08 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Deborah Kukielka, et al Apidologie (2008) virus3.pdf is the above paper recommended by PeterB other viruses.pdf do not know yet ... http://std.kku.ac.th/4830900678/Virus/ -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 08:36:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor: >Peter, what were the three viruses? This paper is not on their website as yet. If you go to the Apidologie web site, you will find it in the "E-First" section at the very bottom. Oddly, they put the new papers at the bottom in "E-First" while they put the new ones in "Forthcoming" at the top. Go figure. > The occurrence and spatial distribution of deformed wing virus (DWV), black queen cell virus (BQCV), and Kashmir bee virus (KBV) were assessed in 294 honeybee colonies in Spain by employing a SYBR-Green based real time RT-PCR. 60% of them were positive for both DWV and BQCV, and those two viruses were detected in 84% and 68% of the samples, respectively. Conversely, KBV was detected in only 1.7% of the samples. -- from the abstract. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 19:45:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roni Subject: Re: Bees, pesticides and sugar beet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric, Would Imidacloprid be found in sugars like raw sugar or molasses? Roni **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 10:26:35 +1000 Reply-To: Trevor Weatherhead Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 60% of them were positive for both DWV and BQCV, and those two > viruses were detected in 84% and 68% of the samples, respectively. > Conversely, KBV was detected in only 1.7% of the samples. Firstly thanks to Peter for giving us the information. Not having access to the full paper, I wonder what significance we attach to the presence of the virus. It could be there as an inapparent infection but does it need something to trigger an adverse reaction? Is Nosema ceranae the trigger? This is assuming that these viruses are having an adverse reaction. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 22:25:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, Around six years ago I was involved with heavy losses in an operation in the south running around fifty thousand hives.( comments in the BEE-I archives) Samples were taken and sent to the UP.I. for testing. I spent many days looking over the return data from Brenda Ball & Norman Carrick. >From what I learned from the experience I feel qualified to comment. Virus are in all hives. None of the below are new or not common. DEW & BACK are very common and common in samples when bees are crashing. Were in those samples back then. Spain has been fighting a long battle against nosegay coronae. What the below research leaves out is my sources say around 100% of the below test hives had levels of nosegay coronae. Exactly like the COD dead outs. In COD 100 % of the COD hives tested positive for nosegay coronae. Norseman coronae weakens the bees immune system which most researchers agree. since we know samples taken in 1985 in Maine and checked last month found nosegay coronae spores in 30% of the samples one has to wonder the influence with the problem hives.. Yes fellow beekeepers nosema ceranae has been in the U.S. a long long time. At least 24 years and exactly how much longer is being looked at as I write. What does surprise me from the below is that KBV was only found in 1.7% of the samples. KBV killed thousands of hives in the Peace River district of Canada around five years ago or what was the suspected killer reported by Canadian researchers( Speedy Bee /ABJ & B.C.). Looking back the missing data which may provide a key to those dead hives is *if* was nosema ceranae was present in those samples back then. We need to go back and recheck those samples to confirm *if* nosema ceranae was present. Back then both Canadian researchers and the USDA_ARS said nosema ceranae was not in the U.S. & Canada. Opps! Danny Weaver ( president of the American Beekeeping federation at the time) said at the time in the ABF newsletter Sept./Oct. 2007 vol. 65 no.5 pg.4 "From the president" ( and quoted in my Dec. 2007 ABJ article pg. 1030) that the main findings by CCD researchers looking into CCD was the fact the Nosema ceranae and KBV was found in 100% of the CCD samples while ABPV was not. It is my opinion. *OPINION* that if researchers in Canada revisit those sample from the Peace River die off that nosema cerane spore levels will be found which *could* link those dead hives to CCD . Canada researcher still persist that the huge die off of bees in Canada is not linked to CCD ( which may or may not be true in my opinion) I guess if maybe we knew exactly what CCD is then Canada researchers could decide. > The occurrence and spatial distribution of deformed wing virus (DWV), black queen cell virus (BQCV), and Kashmir bee virus (KBV) were assessed in 294 honeybee colonies in Spain by employing a SYBR-Green based real time RT-PCR. 60% of them were positive for both DWV and BQCV, and those two viruses were detected in 84% and 68% of the samples, respectively. Conversely, KBV was detected in only 1.7% of the samples. -- from the abstract. The USDA-ARS said for years we had no KBV in the U.S. then Denis Anderson ( Australia world famous virologist) discovered KBV in U.S. samples. Opps! Then when older samples were rechecked KBV was found to be widespread in the U.S. 100% of CCD samples! It would be interesting to me to learn as close as possible to the number of years KBV has been in the U.S. five years? 10 years? decades like nosema ceranae? Moving on as viruses have always been with us ( Bailey) and no way to fight except: After days of looking at research from the U.K. and looking at the conclusion presented by Ball & Carrick ( U.K. virus researchers) the only path for beekeepers was to control mites and other problems ( nosema ceranae) and provide the best nutrition possible for our bees. Actually since then Brenda Ball & norman Carrick have been let go and the research on virus and bees has been stopped. Has the situation changed U.K beeks on BEE-L? As beekeepers we face many problems . Our CCD working team has listed four possible causes for CCD (which is simply a name for specific symptoms and in my opinion only muddies the water but at least has drawn attention to hives crashing and made possible much needed bee research we would not have been able to afford as an industry without public attention to our problems which is why I support the CCD team. Wall Street gets a 700 billion bailout ( now referred to as a rescue plan) and beeks get 4 million. Alaska fisherman received 160 million for their problems. However I do appreciate whatever beekeeping receives. Despite what some may say both national organizations ( and many beeks) have spent many days in Washington testifying and pushing for our cause. Countless beeks have pushed their reps for action. So far the best advice for our current virus problems came to me from the U.K. years ago and still works for me today plus the discovery of nosema ceranae ( 24 years after found in 30% of the Maine samples). Although my friend Randy Oliver and I do not agree on the the dangers nosema ceranae presents to beekeepers ( researchers in Spain are not in complete agreement also) I can say I have been fighting losses in my hives from nosema ceranae going on two years. I saw the problem but did not know what I was seeing until testing confirmed nosegay coronae. This fall I am only seeing bees not taking feed in two yards and hope to see the problem turned around this week after two drenches. if not I will drench again . Since I have adopted Randy Oliver's recommendations ( also Dr. Eric Mussed) I have not observed the dead bees in feeder symptom so I believe I am getting on top of my nosegay coronae issues. In my humble opinion the bee viruses in Spain causes no concern. Nothing new! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:34:39 -0700 Reply-To: edun99@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: a e Subject: If you have the time to read it MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Aaron, The Beekeeper’s Apprentice by Laurie R. King is an excellent detective novel. It is about Sherlock Holmes (& his hives). Not much in it about beekeeping. Sincerely, Abbas **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 05:42:28 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain In-Reply-To: <002501c92c01$30c70ab0$c121b47c@user96c8c0908f> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Trevor asks : "It could be there as an inapparent infection but does it need something to trigger an adverse reaction? Is Nosema ceranae the trigger? This is assuming that these viruses are having an adverse reaction." Past spring I left a bunch of colonies without any medication /treatment. By late winter (a mild one) I have lost 30% of them by starvation. With the first warm day and the cleansing flight i started to see lots of bees walking on the ground with deformed wings. The ones with wings that were walking on the ground could't fly, they have a stange abdomen, like with stomach ake. They have very low loads of nosema spores and huge loads of varroa. I couldn't resiste the no treatment option and I put formic pads on all but two of them. After a couple of new epissodes of "walking on the ground bees", now they are building beautifull. The two ones with out formic still have "walking on the ground bees" epidoses. So for me DWV is definetilly linked to varroa. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 05:56:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: george abbot Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain In-Reply-To: <8917FFF5258743F2BB38FE8EA41F1E89@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > nosema ceranae weakens the bees immune system which most researchers agree. > since we know samples taken in 1985 in Maine and checked last month found > nosema ceranae spores in 30% of the samples one has to wonder the influence > with the problem hives.. Yes fellow beekeepers nosema ceranae has been in > the U.S. a long long time. At least 24 years and exactly how much longer is > being looked at as I write. As noted in prior posts, CCD symptoms were seen in Maine back when viruses first became a major problem. They were reported to Beltsville and the symptoms could not be duplicated there but they were seen here and attributed to the deadly combo of virus and mites. Interesting to see the results of intuition by Tony J that nosema ceranae has been with us for much longer than thought (he sent the samples for testing). His is the one voice that has been right in this for the longest time. BTW, excellent post Bob. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 06:09:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: george abbot Subject: Re: Bees, pesticides and sugar beet In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > Would Imidacloprid be found in sugars like raw sugar or molasses? > Roni Feed either to your bees and they would do the job of killing them off much more effectively even with no added ingredients. Lots on this in the archives. Feeding bees raw sugar is a great way to reduce your bee population and go out of beekeeping.. Anthropomorphism is not a good way to keep bees (good for me good for bees). Also, lets keep it on beekeeping and not go off on a health food thread, which is where these kind of questions tend to go. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:29:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Not sure what happened to my post . correct version. > Hello Peter & All, > > Around six years ago I was involved with heavy losses in an operation in > the south running around fifty thousand hives.( comments in the BEE-I > archives) Samples were taken and sent to the U.K. for testing. I spent > many days looking over the return data from Brenda Ball & Norman Carrick. > > From what I learned from the experience I feel qualified to comment. > > Virus are in all hives. None of the below are new or not common. DWV & > BQCV are very common and common in samples when bees are crashing. Were in > those samples back then. > > Spain has been fighting a long battle against nosema ceranae. What the > below research leaves out is my sources say around 100% of the below test > hives had levels of nosema ceranae. Exactly like the CCD dead outs. In > CCD 100 % of the CCD hives tested positive for nosema ceranae. > > Nosema ceranae weakens the bees immune system which most researchers > agree. since we know samples taken in 1985 in Maine and checked last > month found nosema ceranae spores in 30% of the samples one has to wonder > the influence with the problem hives.. Yes fellow beekeepers nosema > ceranae has been in the U.S. a long long time. At least 24 years and > exactly how much longer is being looked at as I write. > > What does surprise me from the below is that KBV was only found in 1.7% of > the samples. KBV killed thousands of hives in the Peace River district of > Canada around five years ago or what was the suspected killer reported by > Canadian researchers( Speedy Bee /ABJ & B.C.). > > Looking back the missing data which may provide a key to those dead hives > is *if* was nosema ceranae was present in those samples back then. We need > to go back and recheck those samples to confirm *if* nosema ceranae was > present. Back then both Canadian researchers and the USDA_ARS said nosema > ceranae was not in the U.S. & Canada. Opps! > > Danny Weaver ( president of the American Beekeeping federation at the > time) said at the time in the ABF newsletter Sept./Oct. 2007 vol. 65 no.5 > pg.4 "From the president" ( and quoted in my Dec. 2007 ABJ article pg. > 1030) that the main findings by CCD researchers looking into CCD was the > fact the Nosema ceranae and KBV was found in 100% of the CCD samples while > ABPV was not. > > It is my opinion. *OPINION* that if researchers in Canada revisit those > sample from the Peace River die off that nosema cerane spore levels will > be found which *could* link those dead hives to CCD . Canada researcher > still persist that the huge die off of bees in Canada is not linked to CCD > ( which may or may not be true in my opinion) > > I guess if maybe we knew exactly what CCD is then Canada researchers could > decide. > >> The occurrence and spatial distribution of deformed wing virus (DWV), > black queen cell virus (BQCV), and Kashmir bee virus (KBV) were assessed > in > 294 honeybee colonies in Spain by employing a SYBR-Green based real time > RT-PCR. 60% of them were positive for both DWV and BQCV, and those two > viruses were detected in 84% and 68% of the samples, respectively. > Conversely, KBV was detected in only 1.7% of the samples. -- from the > abstract. > > The USDA-ARS said for years we had no KBV in the U.S. then Denis Anderson > ( Australia world famous virologist) discovered KBV in U.S. samples. Opps! > Then when older samples were rechecked KBV was found to be widespread in > the U.S. > > 100% of CCD samples! > > It would be interesting to me to learn as close as possible to the number > of years KBV has been in the U.S. > > five years? > > 10 years? > > decades like nosema ceranae? > > Moving on as viruses have always been with us ( Bailey) and no way to > fight except: > > After days of looking at research from the U.K. and looking at the > conclusion presented by Ball & Carrick ( U.K. virus researchers) the only > path for beekeepers was to control mites and other problems ( nosema > ceranae) and provide the best nutrition possible for our bees. > > Actually since then Brenda Ball & norman Carrick have been let go and the > research on virus and bees has been stopped. Has the situation changed U.K > beeks on BEE-L? > > As beekeepers we face many problems . Our CCD working team has listed four > possible causes for CCD (which is simply a name for specific symptoms and > in my opinion only muddies the water but at least has drawn attention to > hives crashing and made possible much needed bee research we would not > have been able to afford as an industry without public attention to our > problems which is why I support the CCD team. Wall Street gets a 700 > billion bailout ( now referred to as a rescue plan) and beeks get 4 > million. Alaska fisherman received 160 million for their problems. However > I do appreciate whatever beekeeping receives. > > Despite what some may say both national organizations ( and many beeks) > have spent many days in Washington testifying and pushing for our cause. > Countless beeks have pushed their reps for action. > > So far the best advice for our current virus problems came to me from > the U.K. years ago and still works for me today plus the discovery of > nosema ceranae ( 24 years after found in 30% of the Maine samples). > Although my friend Randy Oliver and I do not agree on the the dangers > nosema ceranae presents to beekeepers ( researchers in Spain are not in > complete agreement also) I can say I have been fighting losses in my hives > from nosema ceranae going on two years. I saw the problem but did not know > what I was seeing until testing confirmed nosegay coronae. This fall I am > only seeing bees not taking feed in two yards and hope to see the problem > turned around this week after two drenches. if not I will drench again . > Since I have adopted Randy Oliver's recommendations ( also Dr. Eric > Mussed) I have not observed the dead bees in feeder symptom so I believe I > am getting on top of my nosegay coronae issues. > > In my humble opinion the bee viruses in Spain causes no concern. Nothing > new! > > bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:31:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob writes: > In my humble opinion the bee viruses in Spain causes no concern. Nothing new! Well, it IS causing concern in Spain. The Spanish investigators wrote: The honeybee Apis mellifera is subject of many viral infections that have been increasingly investigated during the last decade. In general, honeybee viruses are widespread and most of them cause unapparent and persistent infections, and environmental factors or parasite infestations may activate virus infections and sometimes, lead to the appearance of clinical symptoms. These viruses affect honeybees and their production causing important economic losses In the last few years, the diagnostic methods for honeybee viruses changed from serological to PCR-based methods Since the pathological importance of the multiple infections is still unknown, this kind of quantitative molecular techniques will contribute to increase our knowledge of the relationships between the estimated viral load and the clinical symptoms and to a better understanding of the relation between the virus, the honeybee and their environment. Bob writes: > 1. make a map of the areas hardest hit in Canada. > 2. check with your agriculture people to see what chemicals etc. are being used. If you are like the U.S. beeks which have looked at your problems you will see a pattern. I think your Ag people might be right when they say CCD is not the problem. Have you made such a map? If you have, why don't you share it with us? (and if not ...) By the way, CCD is not the cause of anything, it is the result -- of something. It's like the blind men and the elephant; each thinks he knows what an elephant is. And the experts are saying the bee problem is -- all of these things. People like Michael Schacker ("A Spring Without Bees, How Colony Collapse Disorder Has Endangered Our Food Supply") are trying to make a case that imidacloprid is the culprit and if we all went "Organic" our problems would vanish. My personal viewpoint is that one cannot understand what is happening to the honey bee industry without understanding viruses. PS. The Spanish report has maps. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:17:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Mixed virus infections could lead to new viruses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Despite the fact that honey bees can harbor multiple virus infections simultaneously, gaps still exist in our current knowledge of the effects of such mixed infections on pathogenic processes in honey bees. Whether the viruses infect the same host but occupy separate physiological niches in the bees or infect the bee and share the same microenvironment to compete for host resources remain to be determined. Moreover, it is not known whether mixed virus infections could lead to genetic recombination between coexisting viruses and whether such recombination could result in the emergence of new viruses. -- "Multiple virus infections in the honey bee and genome divergence of honey bee viruses" Yanping Chen, Yan Zhaob, John Hammond, Hei-ti Hsu, Jay Evans, Mark Feldlaufer USDA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:41:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Simms Subject: Re: Bees, pesticides and sugar beet Comments: To: Roni MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Imidacloprid is more likely to be found in raw sugar and molasses than in r= efined sugar, without a doubt.=A0 Raw sugar will likely have background lev= els of whatever persistant pesticides (pesticides that do not decompose=A0r= eadily in the environment) whereas molasses will have these background leve= ls concentrated.=A0 The sugar refining process produces molasses as a conce= ntrate of the impurities removed from sucrose sugar.=A0 Thus toxins and pes= ticides will be=A0more concentrated in molasses than=A0raw sugar alone.=A0 = The extracted impurities (molasses)=A0also constutes almost all of the nutr= itious components from the extract of sugar cane or sugar beet as well.=0A= =A0=0ASo, for humans, raw sugar and molasses has the iron, vitamins, etc. t= hat are good for us.=A0 But for honey bees, it has all kind of indigestible= sugars and components that will cause them to get sick and weak by way of = gastric upset.=A0 Raw sugar and molasses are bad for bees.=A0 In fact, many= organic types will tell you that molasses is a great way to poison garden = pests, ants and such.=0A=A0=0AHappy beekeeping,=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Eri= c=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:46:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Spanish paper is a big first step - given the size and geographical distribution of their sampling. They looked at three viruses. Keep in mind, there may have been more - PCR requires a primer specific for each virus surveyed. So, three viruses= three primers. Since its pricey, most investigators can't afford to survey for all viruses. P.I.s have to choose which ones they want to look at. We're taking a bit of a different approach. We've continued working with U.S. Army and BVS, Inc. - its slow since we're (Bee Alert and Univ MT) are not funded to do this work - we didn't get any of the $4m, and the announcement and deadline for the Specialty Crops came two weeks apart in the middle of the summer, when we have to do the work that pays us (Army landmine). To short a fuse to respond with a competitive proposal. However, the good news is that we are in the final stages of sorting out virus, bacteria, fungal, and microsporidian (N. ceranae) data from the last two years. Its not simple, but we've got everything in the bee samples - data on all known viruses, fungi, bacteria, plus by using IVDS, a few unknown (un-named) viruses. Our first step was announcing the discovery of the presence of VDV-1 in North America in two colonies from the east coast. We've just found it in a western colony. We're working up papers and will be able to provide an overview at the bee meetings, starting with the MT annual meeting in Helena next Thursday and Friday. We'll present at the Research Luncheon of the CA Beekeepers. And at the AHPA in January. Don't mean to tease, but we get upwards of 15,000 lines of data per sample, and its slow going with little bits of funding. Most of the work has been done by Army on their own dime. The industry owes them a tremendous thanks. We don't want to set off any panics or launch some sort of witch hunt - but we've learned a lot in the last year. Biggest news, it looks like beekeepers can manage bees in ways to reduce/eliminate some of problem viruses. And, we can now tell you whether any diet, management strategy, etc. is having a positive, negative, or no effect on the entire suite of microbes in a colony (viruses, fungi, bacteria, both nosemas). For example, we found dead queens in packages - normally, we'd assume that the queen died in transient - rough handling, over heated or chilled, etc. Not so, everyone of the dead queens that we got were LOADED with a diverse array and very high titers of viruses. We've also found bees WITHOUT any signs of virus, and we've found one bee operation with extremely low mites, N. ceranae, and the lowest diversity and titers of viruses that we've seen across the U.S. - and the difference appears to be related to their management practices - and NO, they aren't organic, and it is a very big bee operation. Overall, they work their bees like Bob and others. But they have one very big difference in their management. We're getting clues as to how to better deal with the suite of microbes in bees. We'll keep you posted as we learn, understand more. FYI, I strongly disagree with Bob on this one. It looks like you can manage viruses in ways other than simply keeping mites in check. But, to do that, you have to be able to see what's going on in the colonies with respect to viral diversity, infection levels, and specific viruses. Think about AFB. Resistant AFB popped up a few years ago. Smart beekeepers don't try to medicate it out of existence, they cull it out of the colonies. How? Because they can see it, take action. We're entering an age where you can 'see' viruses and everything else. Jerry **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 13:41:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, Peter said: > Well, it IS causing concern in Spain. > Peter please fast forward to the location most beeks are at and answer : What possible solution for fighting virus is available?( other than what I stated) Control mites, N. ceranae and better nutrition to keep a healthy bee immune system. In humans? OK girls form a line for your annual shot to prevent virus. Branding each bee was considered in the early days of beekeeping but rejected (kidding!) Peter said. By the way, CCD is not the cause of anything, it is > the result -- of something. I think the entire list understands the above. By the way are you seeing the CCD described symptoms in New York? tens of thousands of hives crashing from CCD related symptoms? How many cases have you seen? CCD is simply a set of described symptoms. Cause unknown. Bob Harrison opinion: I think we can rule out a single cause for CCD to be found at this point. I also firmly believe that if you control mites, provide good nutrition for your bees and control nosema ceranae that you will end up with good bees. Myself and all the beeks I advise have got the best bees in years. We all agree that nosema ceranae was the missing link to getting good bees back. CCD as explained by the CCD working group was virus and N. ceranae in 100% of CCD samples. Beeks took nosema ceranae out of the equation leaving virus and like magic good bees. Now if we can find a solution for pesticides maybe we can move on. CCD symptoms are said by those looking at CCD to be caused by four possible areas of concern. " I do not know what CCD is but I know CCD when I see it" Jeff Pettis (ABF convention Jan. 2008) I wish I could say what I think about the method the 4 million is being used for CCD research but my post would not go through ( like many others) but I find it unbelievable Jerry B. did not get funding. I will use the grapevine to try and get you funding Jerry. At the very least make other beeks aware you were passed over! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:11:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain In-Reply-To: <939A41FFDBE84874B62A1AA6A2B9B7B3@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Myself and all the beeks I advise have got the best bees in years. Bob, I'm glad to hear that! However, you leave out yet another way to deal with viruses, indeed, the main way that bees have done so for millions of years--selection for resistance. Bees can do this by incorporating portions of viral genes into their genome, and then use them to produce short interfering RNA (I will cover in an upcoming article). This is the method that Beeologics has patented, also. I can guarantee that none of your friends has bred, or bought queens from, colonies that died of CCD. This means by default that your existing bees were bred from either (1) colonies that had been exposed to CCD pathogens (or whatever you blame CCD on) and survived, or (2) colonies that weren't exposed to CCD pathogens. If the former, then CCD may go the way of previous "Disappearing Diseases.) If the latter, I guess we'll see... Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:48:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain Comments: To: Jerry Bromenshenk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:46:57 EDT, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: >We've also found bees WITHOUT any signs of virus, and we've found one bee >operation with extremely low mites, N. ceranae, and the lowest diversity and >titers of viruses that we've seen across the U.S. - and the difference appears >to be related to their management practices - and NO, they aren't organic, and > it is a very big bee operation. Overall, they work their bees like Bob and >others. But they have one very big difference in their management. > Can you share the "big difference" in management you refer to without divulging other "personal" information? A Clue? Sounds interesting. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 03:57:55 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Randy and All Do you or does anyone know whether the queen breeders that supply Bob and his friends are indeed selecting for CCD survival? Bob's attitude when we asked him earlier was to ditch the dinks and buy anew, which left me believing that Bob's advice was not the way forward for those suffering CCD. Any sign that the US beekeeping industry is learning these lessons? I would imagine that trying to breed resistance to imidacloprid is futile (even if it was a factor in CCD, do bees vary for susceptibility?) whereas breeding resistance to Nosema ceranae and viruses is almost guaranteed to work. all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:52:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: first crash Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yet another set of symptoms As you know my bees have ccd Let's call this mid-fall crash I'm sure a few more are waiting in the wings but this is the first for 08 Why this particular hive I don't know There are others that should have higher exposure or exibit more overt symptoms (malaise, lack of production) By the time I got there it was robbed out (mostly) but it appeared normal all thru Sept No bees on BB, just wax bits On 8 brood frames 20-100+ dead, avg ~ 40 90% coloured pupae or emergents A few dead larvae 3+d, a few chalk but whiter, a few chewed, a few apparently full of royal jelly??? Gobs of propolis around flight holes, 3" D (most of my boxes have 3/4" hole & plug) This happened the first week of Oct I get the feeling that they really dislike cleaning out pupae corpses, could they be full of virus? Can they sense this?? Smell? So formic is no guarantee FWIW I think ccd is a virus dave **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 01:46:37 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Montauk daisy as a honey plant? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Anyone have experience with this plant? This year, for the first time ever, I see my bees quite happy to be working it. They ignored it in the years past. It seems they are primarily getting nectar from it. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:46:19 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Can you share the "big difference" in management you refer to without divulging other "personal" information? A Clue? Sounds interesting." Jerry: I also go with this plea -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 06:13:34 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: first crash In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Thompson wrote: > Yet another set of symptoms > As you know my bees have ccd > Let's call this mid-fall crash Hello Dave, The first rule in looking at symptoms: Symptoms are to be looked at without a predetermination of cause. Resist the urge to ‘force fit’ symptoms into a previously determined OR suspected causes. With each colony you analyze, ‘throw out all previously suspected causes‘ and start again from scratch, letting the symptoms lead you to the cause. IMO, CCD has become the name given to any unexplainable loss, often force fitting symptoms to the diagnosis, and this is too bad. > By the time I got there it was robbed out > (mostly) Congratulations, you do not have CCD. A requirement for CCD is that they DO NOT get robbed out so quickly. but it appeared normal all thru Sept > No bees on BB, just wax bits …This happened the first week of Oct I might perhaps, not call that normal. Wax bits observed in September, along with chewed out brood in October, suggest to me that the colony weakening all through September, and not a ‘rapid decline’ which is a requirement of for CCD diagnosis. No dead bees on the bottomboard can suggest a gradual decline. Wax bits can indicate the colony may have been low on stores, and needed to access new reserves quickly letting the caps fall to the floor in the process. OR caps on the floor can suggest that the colony was weak and already ‘resizing is broodnest area’ to what it is capable of protecting, and intentionally choosing to abandon some stores to robbers so that it may protect the core nest area. Next step is to investigate how low on stores they were. See how many frames were actually robbed out, vs, empty, and exactly how much brood was there. A colony short on stores in September, suggest to me that they were perhaps having difficulty several months earlier. And another symptom that would IMO negate CCD as a cause. It’s a strange thing, in all sciences, they have a category called ‘undetermined cause’. I have yet to see that category in beekeeping, it has been replaced with a cause; CCD. And this is too bad. Best Wishes, Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:45:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain Comments: To: manwithbees@GMAIL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I mentioned a bee operation with an unusually low incidence of mites, N. ceranae, and viruses. I will share that information, after I talk to the owners. They will be at the MT beekeepers meeting in Helena at the end of this week. We're working up management suggestions that we will begin to explain this week to the MT beekeepers who have helped us survive CCD, build on the topic at the CA meeting. I need to talk to our beekeepers, get their insights and permissions before we make any statements. Jerry **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:05:12 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit G_avinrbox-beel@YAHOO.CO.UK_ (mailto:Gavinrbox-beel@YAHOO.CO.UK) writes: would imagine that trying to breed resistance to imidacloprid is futile (even if it was a factor in CCD, do bees vary for susceptibility?) whereas breeding resistance to Nosema ceranae and viruses is almost guaranteed to work. Bees do indeed vary in susceptibility to pesticides of all types. That's the reason why the original label testing guidelines hammered out in the U.S. in the 60s, early 70s insisted on using at least three colonies for any testing aimed at protection of pollinators from the toxic effects of pesticides - a practice that has been more or less forgotten by some of the private labs conducting testing for chemical companies, and often overlooked by EPA. Some of these companies use ONE colony, sub-sample it, which is NOT true replication of populations. If that ONE colony is particularly susceptible, beekeepers win. If that colony is resistant, the dose that kills may be under-estimated. However, resistance to pesticides generally is reflected in differences in the dose needed to harm - e.g., how much is needed to kill 50% of the bees over an established period of time - 24, 48, 96 hours? A poison is a poison, many directly affecting the insect's nervous system, other basic functioning. There may be differences in susceptibility relative to dose, but bees are not likely to ever become truly resistant to any toxic chemical. Simply stated, if something chomps your head off, perforates your gut, is poisonous, you're not going to develop resistance. Bees may be bred for resistance to a variety of pathogens - although again, it will depend somewhat on the nature of the pathogen, how it injures the bee. With mites, one can readily see races of bees that seem to better tolerate them, maybe even see behaviors such as hygienic traits that affect the resistance. With N. ceranae - not sure that we've found any resistance traits, but time will tell. We're certainly looking for colonies that seem to tolerate this pathogen - and we've found a couple that have lasted for more than a year with heavy infestations - so it looks like there may be resistant colonies that could be bred from. Haven't a clue as to WHY these are resistant. With viruses, lots of ways that resistance to any one virus might occur. And, if its economically feasible to detect viruses, you may be able to cull the worst ones out - just as you do for AFB. Jerry **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:41:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain In-Reply-To: <588871.71160.qm@web86209.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Gavin, Randy & All, I will give my replies and Randy can his. >Do you or does anyone know whether the queen breeders that supply Bob and >his friends are indeed selecting for CCD survival? absolutely not! First we have to know what is causing the CCD issue. Perhaps a few U.S. queen breeders could breed the bee ( only a few as most are queen PRODUCERS). The hives on the east coast reporting CCD had somewhat different symptoms than those on the west coast. Samples displayed different problems. As far as nosema ceranae goes we ALREADY have got some bees which tolerate the problem. Randy & I were having problems understanding when we started looking into the new nosema why some hives could tolerate spore counts up to five million and not show symptoms while other crashed with spore counts in the million range. Randy and I both suspected at the start that the ONLY possible reason was that the *new* nosema was in fact an *old* nosema which would explain what we were seeing. Now our suspicions have been confirmed. Randy has some bees in his nosema test yards which possibly be used as breeders. None of know how long breeding a nosema ceranae tolerant bee might take. Over 20 years for varroa tolerant and still not the forever varroa tolerant bee. I do believe its possible ( as I believe has already happened on its own over the last 24 years ). Breeding a tolerant bee would be a good job for the Baton Rouge Bee lab. I personally will treat if needed (to stay in business) and cull hives which display a weakness to nosema ceranae ( really the best way for me to improve genetics other than bringing in new genetics or doing a costly breeding program myself) Breeding for nosema tolerant bees.Hmm. I can see the adds now. >Bob's attitude when we asked him earlier was to ditch the dinks and buy >anew, which left me believing that Bob's advice was not the way forward for >those suffering CCD. Maybe I would have a different opinion if I knew what CCD is instead of being given four possible answers. I am not a queen breeder. I am a commercial beekeeper. *When* a queen breeder comes up with a nosema ceranae tolerant bee I will try a 100. I certainly will not convert all my hives. Those days are over. Been burned too many times with claims. I really have never had dies with exactly the CCD symptoms except in a few random cases. I have seen those symptoms in other beeks yards. I also would not advise a commercial beek to quit trying to control nosema ceranae and simply let nosema ceranae kill off the dinks and then raise queens from the survivors for a couple reasons. 1. You will in most cases sustain heavy losses 2. those hives and the deadouts will contain high spore counts infecting new bees placed on those hives and also a reservoir for nosema ceranae problems to rise whenever the bees immune system is compromised.( hives which have crashed from huge nosema ceranae spore counts need acetic acid treatment *in my opinion*). *If* I was a queen breeder looking to find a nosema ceranae tolerant bee then I would do the above. >Any sign that the US beekeeping industry is learning these lessons? We need a higher number of queen breeders but because the work is hard with few rewards moneywise few are interested. Randy has learned the fact with his research. Projects take time and money and keeps you from your other bee work. Bee research has cost myself plenty in time and money. Beeks will buy disease tolerant bees but at only a few dollars over production queen prices. Selling disease tolerant queens can be profitable but a close friend selling varroa tolerant breeder queens sell only a few breeder queens ( a drop in the bucket compared to his costs) . He does sell quite a few varroa tolerant production queens but he has to not price himself out of the queen price range. So how does he recoup his losses from his research? Going on 10 years and still in the hole if you consider all the money lost in the first years. I doubt little of the 4 million in CCD funds will trickle down to queen breeders which could find a tolerant bee. Politics are already involved my sources say. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:56:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Live Drones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all of you in warm climates - do any of you still see drones in your hives? If so, I need a few live drones to test a new device. There's nary a drone in our MT colonies. Ditto for northern CA. Would need them drop-shipped overnight, with some type of insulation - its beginning to freeze overnight in western MT. I need them alive when they arrive in MT. Don't need many. But, the sooner the better - we need to move ahead with testing the device, and the longer we go, the more problematic shipping and receiving drones in good condition. If you can help us out, send me an e-mail. We'll cover the shipping. Thanks Jerry **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:58:17 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > does anyone know whether the queen breeders > that supply Bob and his friends are indeed > selecting for CCD survival? Mo one has yet speculated about survival among colonies classified as suffering from CCD, so even an anecdotal report of such "survivors" would be encouraging news. If anyone reports any survivors, I'm sure that there will be great interest, but the queen producers have yet to even work out a way to consistently offer even Tracheal Mite resistance in their queens, so I don't think we should build up false hopes about skills and abilities. > Any sign that the US beekeeping industry is > learning these lessons? The use of the term "lessons" seems to indicate that you feel that "breeding from survivors" has been a success. Please cite some examples, as I can't think of any unqualified success in this area. > breeding resistance to Nosema ceranae and > viruses is almost guaranteed to work. If this was true, why don't we today have bees that are resistant to at least Nosema APIS? Nosema apis has been around for a loong time, and has been proven multiple times to be a disease of significant economic importance to beekeepers, so where are the resistant bees? In regard to viruses, I have to point out that viruses mutate much more rapidly than the efforts to defeat them. Every year, "The Flu" requires a different vaccine, as it changes every year. I therefore have to take issue with the claim "almost guaranteed to work". **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:43:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: fighting viruses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob writes: > Peter please fast forward to the location most beeks are at and answer : > What possible solution for fighting virus is available? ( other than what I stated) As has been reported previously, Israeli scientists have developed a technique called RNA interference. They use small segments of RNA added to sugar syrup to knock out genes on the viruses which prevents them from reproducing in the host. This technique is already being used in plants and has been shown to work in fruit flies. It is entirely feasible to create a concoction which will knock out any number of viruses at once, using this method. It is also being tried on AIDS patients. One problem is that viruses evolve very quickly, they're sort of a moving target. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:53:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: first crash Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave, what kind of mite counts did you have in early Sept? Was this a second year colony? Lost of bees during the peak of the summer? The boomers are the ones that succumb more easily to an explosion in mite population. Hope the rest of yer bees are doing better. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:57:45 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: de roeck ghislain Subject: Canadian Honey Councils asking for $ 50 million. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > James Fisher wrote: > > >What has happened over and over is that the European "Precautionary > >Principle" is used to temporarily suspend use of specific chemicals, > >but things do NOT improve, so the suspensions are lifted. Yet people > >with agendas cite these uses of the "Precautionary Principle" as if > >they were "proof" of something, rather than what they are, which is a > >preemptive suspension, specifically taken in the > ABSENCE of proof. > >(Why do you think they call it the "PRECAUTIONARY Principle", for > >Pete's sake?) > James, Would you explain what you mean with 'people with agendas'? Who are they? What's their goal? Why do they what they do? You wrote this earlier, so it's good to be clear about it. Kind regards, Ghislain De Roeck. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:00:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:41:44 -0500, Bob Harrison wrote: >None of know how long breeding a nosema ceranae tolerant bee might take. >Over 20 years for varroa tolerant and still not the forever varroa tolerant >bee. > We might have that bee already - the russian bee. I don't have any data to support my statement but the Russians I wintered and others in the region don't appear to have high spores counts and winter very very well. If this bee coexisted with the varroa mite for 160 years that jumped host from Apis Ceranae why would they not also have been exposed to Nosema Ceranae? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:27:24 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: fighting viruses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It is entirely feasible to create a concoction > which will knock out any number of viruses at > once, using this method. I feel it important to make the minor side-point that the "Remebee" product is targeted at ONE virus, IAPV, so while one could go through the same process for multiple viruses and mix the resulting "serums" into one product, I haven't heard anyone make the claim that any one "Synthetic Small Interfering RNA" would be effective against any more than one specific virus at any one time. There are a number of viruses that are variants of other viruses, so perhaps one could target something like KBV, and, in the process, sweep up all the KBV variants, such as IAPV. I'm guessing here, as I'm >>NOT<< any sort of microbiologist, but there has to be a number of genetic snippets common to several viruses, and if one targeted one of the common snippets, then what Peter suggested might then become true, and one siRNA or shRNA could frustrate multiple viruses. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:22:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] Canadian Honey Councils asking for $ 50 million. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by maryamhenein@HOTMAIL.COM to = the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of = previously posted material. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Maryam Henein [mailto:maryamhenein@hotmail.com] Sent: Mon 2008.10.13 15:35 To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Subject: RE: [BEE-L] Canadian Honey Councils asking for $ 50 million. Things do improve, depending on who you ask. According to many = beekeepers that i've personally spoken to in France, they've had the = best honey production in ten years since Regent and Gaucho was taken off = the market. Why take risks with our environment if we're not absolutely = sure of what these chemicals do. Thank God for the Precautionary Principle. However in many places = including this country it's the Greed and Money principle that rules. Until you go to France and speak to someone directly everything is = hearsay. Well i've spoken to scientists and beeks. They were able to = detect IMD becuase their ability to suss out toxins in the pollen and = nectar is mucb more sensitive. The way you do the science effects the = findings, obviously. And as far as i am concerned that fact that the losses are happening in = France, Greece, Italy, Slovenia...etc... and that beekeepers = independantly come to the conclusion tnat toxins are effecting their = bees, serves as emprical proof. Are all these beekeepers nuts? I don't = think so. Let's give them some credit. =20 -- (\ {:|}{|||}--=20 (/ Maryam Henein Writer/Producer/All-around Raconteur www.vanishingbees.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:42:25 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Live Drones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry > To all of you in warm climates - do any of you still see drones in > your hives? That'll be Scotland then! Still have drones flying well from a couple of colonies (it turned warm here and they are packing the brood boxes with ivy honey, virtually unheard of in these parts). But I'm not expecting you to want them, given the quarantine and shipping issues! all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:53:24 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jim > Please cite some examples, as > I can't think of any unqualified success in > this area. Isle of Wight disease in the UK. Varroa in places such as E Russia, Tunisia, and also in Arizona. > If this was true, why don't we today have > bees that are resistant to at least Nosema APIS? I suspect that we do, and that once upon a time Nosema apis was the new (and devastating) kid on the block. These days Nosema apis is a minor irritation. It is probably the way with most pathogens, the race between host and pathogen, with a truce finally declared. We've heard talk on here of 'dinks' that seemed to survive a dramatic sweep of what you and I believe was some kind of pathogen sweeping through yards. Why do a few survive in the face of that pressure? Surely the best guess is that they have useful genetics. I'll go further - the habit of buying in bees in commercial yards makes the genetics mostly uniform in that yard, or even in that operation. That genetic uniformity may be part of the reason why the US has CCD. That's just speculation though - I can't provide proof. all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:55:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All, Jim Fischer made some excellent points in his post and points I agree with. Bob said: >None of know how long breeding a nosema ceranae tolerant bee might take. >Over 20 years for varroa tolerant and still not the forever varroa tolerant >bee. I might amend the above a bit. I find it very useful to incorporate stock which is tolerant of whatever problems i find in beekeeping. When your line of bees are even halfway varroa tolerant ( nosema tolerant) and you for one of countless reasons can not check and say control your mites or check and treat for nosema ceranae the few weeks which the tolerant bee gives you over the non varroa tolerant bee can save you from a serious crash. > the Russians I wintered and others in the region don't appear to have high spores counts and winter very very well. appear is deceiving. Spore counts tell the tale. I have not done testing for nosema ceranae spores in the hives headed by this years Russian queens but several went off feed so I drenched. They are back taking feed now but behind the others. I put those bees on deadouts from nosema ceranae killed hives which had not been treated with acetic acid. I will know before long if the Russian bee is nosema ceranae tolerant. >If this bee coexisted with the varroa mite for 160 years that jumped host >from Apis Ceranae why would they not also have been exposed to Nosema Ceranae? My Russian bees usually will go three years untreated for varroa. I thought varroa only jumped around a 100 years ago but I doubt researchers know for sure. We know very little about nosema ceranae and bees. Spain has fought the problem the longest and most of what we know comes from Spain. Nosema effects many insects and we do know quite a bit about nosema. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:32:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 14/10/2008 00:29:18 GMT Standard Time, gavinrbox-beel@YAHOO.CO.UK writes: Isle of Wight disease in the UK. Gavin, What do you understand by the term 'Isle of Wight Disease' ? Chris ************** **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:07:47 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Canadian Honey Councils asking for $ 50 million. In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA3414B9F45@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mentioning the CHC - Who from Bee-L,if any, is going to be there in Niagara this December ? Peter. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:49:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Canadian Honey Councils asking for $ 50 million. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What Peter's talking about: =20 Ontario Beekeepers Convention Announcement =20 Mark your calendar NOW, for a three-day Apiculture Conference, in = Niagara Falls, Ontario Canada. The Ontario Beekeepers Association (OBA) = will host the "Beekeeper's Research Symposium", on December 11-13, 2008. = This venue will also be host to annual meetings for the Canadian Honey = Council's - AGM and The Canadian Association of Professional = Apiculturist (CAPA). =20 =20 Some of the invited Speakers/Presenters for the "Beekeepers Research = Symposium" will include the following tentative topics: Super Markets: = Is Big Really Better, Nosema Ceranae Research, Using Ozone to Control = Honey Bee Disease and Applying Apitherapy just to name a few. =20 The conference offers an opportunity to attend Saturday morning ( 9:00 = AM to noon) "Break-out" session with the following categories: Bee = Breeding, Pollination, Honey Production and Apitherapy =20 Also plan to sigh-up for the Saturday afternoon Beekeeper's bus tour, = including lunch, a local honey house, butterfly conservatory and Niagara = meadery. =20 As more information is available, you can find the information posted = via various beekeeping media and journal postings, such as the Canadian = Honey Council's "Hive Lights" or the CHC web site www.honeycouncil.ca , = or the OBA "Ontario Beekeeping Journal (October edition) = www.ontariobee.com. =20 For information regarding conference location see = www.niagarafallshilton.com , as the hotel has already been booked for = the convention with rooms available for booking now. =20 You can book your room online at this site = http://www.hilton.com/en/hi/group/personalized/XLVNFH-BEE-20081206/index.= jhtml =20 An Early-bird (discount) Convention registration, will be offered until = about October 31, 2008, (check the official registration form when = posted). =20 >From page 6 of the August 2008 The Ontario Bee journal =20 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:55:41 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: nosema resistance? wasRe: [BEE-L] Bee Viruses in Spain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Please cite some examples, as > I can't think of any unqualified success in > this area. one that is worth looking at is the part of dee's operation that she lost last fall. officially, it was considered ccd and samples were taken. preliminary results showed nosema c in most of the crashed hives. the thing is, this was 200 out of 300 she had in this area (which is flying distance from other beekeepers). it isn't clear what other issues there may have been in these hives, or if nosema was a cause or an effect. the 100 left were split into the old equipment, completely (or almost completely) making up the numbers. the thing is...these splits were made into the deadout equipment (i was there for this in april...i probably have some video footage of these yards as well). i would assume that bob is correct in that this deadout equipment has high spore counts...yet the splits took, and they are thriving and productive. if we assume that there are high spore counts in the deadouts, either the hives in these yards that did not succumb last fall are resistant (in that it is hard to imagine they weren't exposed the same as the deadout hives), or their demise is imminent from the nosema c spores in the equipment. how long should this take? should they be dead by now if put in deadouts in mid april? obviously, no acetic acid or other treatment was made to these deadouts. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:32:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob > I thought varroa only jumped around a 100 years ago but I doubt researchers know for sure. Tom Glenn writes: In 1905 the trans-Siberian railroad was completed, opening eastern Russia to the rest of Europe. The European honeybee was imported into this area which had only been inhabited by the Asian honey bee Apis cerana, the natural host of Varroa mites. The Asian honeybee and varroa mites have co-evolved into a balanced host/parasite relationship without much harm being done. Varroa only reproduces on drone pupae in these bees, and drones are only available part of the year, so high populations of mites never build up. When the European bees encountered varroa, things were different. Varroa is able to reproduce on worker pupae which allows extremely high numbers of mites to build up. This high infestation eventually kills the colony. Every beekeeper can help in the effort by using some of these Russian bees in their hives. Drones are produced from the queen's unfertilized eggs, so all drones from the Russian queens will be 100% Russian. This fact will greatly help in the spreading of the resistant genes, as drones fly for miles in search of queens to mate. If all goes well we may see the emergence of Varroa resistant bees across the country. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:21:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: FW: [BEE-L] Canadian Honey Councils asking for $ 50 million. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maryam Henein writes: And as far as i am concerned that fact that the losses are happening in France, Greece, Italy, Slovenia...etc... and that beekeepers independantly come to the conclusion tnat toxins are effecting their bees, serves as emprical proof. Are all these beekeepers nuts? I don't think so. Let's give them some credit. In defense of science, I have to respectfully take exception to this view. First of all the author refers to scientists that she says she has talked to, but offers no specific reference as to their identity or their work. It makes it kind of hard to know how much weight to give it. Then there is the willingness to accept as empirical proof the conclusions of a whole bunch of people whether they are independent of each other or not. Specifically where is the empirical evidence, that we can all look at, that supports what all these beekeepers have concluded? I seem to remember from my history studies, a few cases where what almost everybody concluded turned out to be dead wrong. So I just have a different idea about what the term empirical proof means. I am making no claims about whether pesticides are killing bees in Europe or not, but I suspect that this may be a case where the dreaded agenda factor may be clouding the issue. This happens when people get attached to an idea, in this case the idea that all chemical pesticides are bad, and allow that attachment to affect what really ought to be raiser sharp objectivity in an area where that is what is called for. Beekeepers dont have to be nuts to be mistaken. At least as a hypotheses, what everybody thinks is true usually has some credibility, certainly enough to warrant some scientific research. But if you are going to invoke the name of science and empirical proof, you have an obligation to avoid confusing them with what amounts to something that appears, on the face of it, more like belief. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:51:44 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Canadian Honey Councils asking for $ 50 million. In-Reply-To: <000401c92aa4$6f15c2b0$4d414810$@be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ghislain De Roeck asked: > James, can you explan what you mean with 'people with agendas'? > Who are they? Why do they what they do? I would not have had a good answer a year ago. Science has made significant progress this year in answering the question "why". I think that a few studies are worth citing here, as the findings have a direct impact on many beekeeping discussions here and elsewhere on the interwebnet. "They" can be broken down into two major groups: "Impressionable Beekeepers" and "Money-Grubbers". Note that there are no "money-grubber-beekeepers", because step one of money grubbing would be the realization that anything would be more profitable than beekeeping. :) Nearly 100% of beekeepers can be forgiven for being so "impressionable". One needs to do some background reading to get a grasp of just how hard one has to work to avoid the traps of fuzzy thinking to which so many seem to fall prey: http://tinyurl.com/4myeyf or http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008/10/03/control-study.html "People turn to superstitions, rituals and conspiracy theories as a way to deal with complex or chaotic circumstances... ...when people feel like there is a lack of control... they are more likely to form strong conclusions, even though there is no pattern..." The paper I cite above may explain close to 100% of the surreal and confusing conversations I've had with certain beekeepers. It was quite an eye-opener for me. Why "the impressionable" are so persistent in supporting 100% fact-free stances is an easy 3-step process in the mind of the beekeeper: 1) I believe that xyz can save the bees 2) I want to save ALL bees, yours included 3) If I must make stuff up in order to convince you, then the lying is for your own good. The 3 steps can make bogus ideas "viral". The less experienced the beekeeper, the more likely the are to be passionately convinced that they know better than you, and willing to make stuff up to win you over to their way of thinking. The "Money-Grubbers" are a different story. None of them can be forgiven, as they are conning money out of the general public in our name. The specific agendas vary, but a common theme is a pre-existing goal, and an attempt to link the problems of bees to that goal, not for the sake of the bees, but for the sake of further promoting their goal. "See, the bees are dying, we were right all along!" they shout. They skip the part about correlation and causation, of course. Examples of this would be nearly all the environmental groups who continue to claim that pesticides have something to do with CCD, despite the clear disease-like ability of the symptoms to spread among hives. Sometimes, the money-gubbers are more naked in their greed and self-serving moves. A good example would be the NRDC, who merely put up a web page about "saving the bees", collected unknown millions in donations "for the bees", yet have done nothing to help. In fact, their suit against the EPA can do nothing but hurt, as it forces to EPA to divert scarce resources from doing their job to defending against an accusation that is nothing less than the sort of paranoid delusions that would prompt involuntary commitment for 72 hours of observation. http://www.nrdc.org/media/2008/080818a.asp "The NRDC filed a lawsuit today to uncover critical information that the US government is withholding about the risks posed by pesticides to honey bees. NRDC legal experts and a leading bee researcher are convinced that the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has evidence of connections between pesticides and the mysterious honey bee die-offs reported across the country. The phenomenon has come to be called 'colony collapse disorder'..." Exactly what sort of pathology would result in this level of paranoia? What sort of comic book super-villain would be required to subvert the entire EPA? How could such a conspiracy be kept a secret for so long? How much would all this cost? Who would gain anything from killing bees? But somehow, otherwise rational people don't even raise an eyebrow at such nonsense, and some are even willing to believe that such a conspiracy could exist. Its complete nonsense, of course, but somehow, people are taken in by it. How? Well, the good news is that science can even explain the reason for people rejecting reason itself, and also explain why beekeepers seem to be so "impressionable" in the absense of the usual several gigabytes of hard data: http://tinyurl.com/3sbcns or http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080924-does-ideology-trump-facts-stud ies-say-it-often-does.html Where it is shown that, in many cases, even refuiting false claims does nothing more than reinforce the false beliefs. (There are still two schools of thought on this point, but each side has some pretty strong data.) http://dmiessler.com/blog/the-dunning-kruger-effect Which explains why people knowing nothing at all about a subject think that they know more than those who know a lot about a subject. A LACK of expertise, education, and experience apparently gives one an very unwarranted sense of confidence. These findings alone could explain the bulk of my confusion in the period since 1994 when so many newcomers appeared on the internet with so many wacky views. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11009379/ Which shows that people are very adept at making decisions without letting the facts get in the way. To make matters worse, they get "a rush" from ignoring information that's contrary to their point of view. It is almost as if the human brain was wired to be stubborn in the face of facts. More detail on this is here: http://www.duke.edu/%7Ebjn3/nyhan-reifler.pdf So, suddenly one can comprehend the statements made by those who promote the idea that imported bees are the solution to the problem of imported pathogens, diseases, and pests of bees. The idea is utter nonsense, of course, as the easiest way to import even more exotic invasive diseases, pathogens, and pests would be in shipments of live uninspected bees like the ones we are shipped every year. A very clear example of what a bad idea this can be is the movement of Apis cerana into Australia from the nearby areas of Asia where it is native. (By "nearby", I mean that lots of trade on somewhat decrepit ships goes back and forth between the two points.) The bees have spread, and become established in the Top End of Australia: http://tinyurl.com/3ho7c6 or http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2008.09.28.10.45.archive.html despite attempts to kill them off, and multiple claims that they had found and killed the "last" hive: As a final note, I must make it clear that all of the above, taken together, clearly warns us that false and misleading information will follow the path of least resistance. It will get passed on by the people who are most eager to believe it, and are therefore ALSO least likely to do the homework to find out if any of it is actually true. So, even the simple case of the "eager beaver beleiver" turns into a person with "an agenda", spreading nonsense. No matter how earnest, nonsense is still nonsense. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:55:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: nosema resistance? wasRe: [BEE-L] Bee Viruses in Spain In-Reply-To: <20081013.205541.29128.0@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello Deknow & All, You ask excellent questions. I can only make guesses from my experiments. Not knowing the amount of time nosema ceranae has been in Dee's operation makes a diagnosis problematic. I have provided all I know and have learned since I discovered nosema ceranae in my yards and is in the archives. Randy Oliver has an excellent series in ABJ concerning nosema. I could send you his article which will be in the next Bee Culture with his permission which has the latest information. Dee is so against "dopes' that I hate to suggest treatment but obviously what I would do. As for the equipment: If heavily stained and Jerry B. has confirmed N. ceranae I would think in time N. ceranae would raise its ugly head again and take out hives. In my opinion Dee's methods will not help against the fungi which in the last stages causes the bees to go off feed and literally starve. However something has to be said for her keeping her bees on comb which have never had fluvalinate or coumaphos used however the comb in my hives has never had those chemicals used yet I have been fighting n. ceranae for around two years. I have devised a system for which the novice as well as the commercial beek can easily detect N. ceranae but Dee does not feed her bees so would be of little use to her. My method explained last Monday to the Kansas beekeepers at their meeting. * If* you have tested and know you have N. ceranae in your hives then. 1. feed a measured amount of feed at three month intervals. ( pint or quart would be enough as for test purposes) 1a. If the feed is gone in a week or next trip no treatment is needed. 1B. *If* when you return hives which are strong have not touched the feed are in the yard I would treat the whole yard with the recommended drench. Check in a week and repeat (as per label) until the hives go back on feed. 2. Hives not taking feed with feeders filled with dead bees ( starving and last stages of N. ceranae) I would depopulate those hives and treat with acetic acid before installing bees again. Beekeepers always say there as many ways to keep bees as there are beekeepers and some may not agree with my methods but the above is the method I use now and will until I find a better method. Randy what do you think of my method? Be honest its hard to hurt my feelings! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 04:57:57 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: nosema resistance? wasRe: [BEE-L] Bee Viruses in Spain In-Reply-To: <20081013.205541.29128.0@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "How long should this take? should they be dead by now if put in deadouts in mid april? obviously, no acetic acid or other treatment was made to these deadouts." Based on the Spanish researcher it will take some 18 months ... -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:58:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: 2nd crash Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A few more in the wings indeed, hopefully <6 Yes my bees really have ccd, read archives and save my temper. There are only 30 posts re ccd from me (2007-2008) This hive was also one of the 5 nucs that showed exaggerated symptoms 17 months ago (same Q, ~2yr old both) I caught it at the start of robbing and confess I didn't see the collapse happen It must have been recent On 6 brood frames 20-80 dead, avg~30 A few days younger dead in general, 20% 3.5d larvae, died in place, no one wiggled out Less emergents, a few failed Q cell It does look a first glance like a varoa collapse but there is a little bit more.... (when infection jumps, so does brood mortality) Is this what causes collapse or original infection? Both these hive were more Italian, Russians seem more resistant I'm starting to think that the Ontario method of formic is not adequate, need more They were both strong productive hives, 1st GP, 2nd VG. maybe I was a week or two late with the pads I certainly wish I could pick the most resistant, I'm not sure how? or how can you raise a healthy Q under these circumstances? dave **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:10:51 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Canadian Honey Councils asking for $ 50 million. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > According to many beekeepers that i've personally > spoken to in France, they've had the best honey > production in ten years since Regent and Gaucho > was taken off the market. It is a shame that more research was not done before speaking with the French beekeepers, as follow-up questions could have been asked. The complaints of French beekeepers were never about reduced honey production, but instead, about hive losses. I find it very strange that they don't mention better hive survival rates since the bans, but instead change the subject to production tonnage. I wonder why they avoid the issue now? Could it be that they still have about the same losses as they had before? In regard to honey production, it varies with the weather, all other factors being equal. Too much rain, and the bees don't get to fly enough and the blooms are washed out. Too little rain, and the blooms aren't as extensive, nor do they produce as much nectar. But no one has ever accused a pesticide of reducing honey production before. > Why take risks with our environment The systemics actually protect our environment by both reducing the amount of pesticide required to protect a crop to a tiny amount (as in seed treatments) and by eliminating the need to spray pesticides, which is how they kill bees, get into the groundwater and soil, etc etc. When pesticides don't get airborne, bee kills go to nearly zero. When growers don't apply pesticides themselves at all, bee kills get even closer to zero. And pesticide volume goes way down. The older pesticides that systemics can replace ARE a risk, one that only fools would continue to take. > if we're not > absolutely sure of what these chemicals do. Those who do their homework can assure themselves that we are very sure of what these chemicals do. The problem is that this takes hard work, and math is involved. Not everyone is willing to go to the trouble to understand, some are not even able to do the work. > Thank God for the Precautionary Principle. I feel obligated to point out that God and the Precautionary Principle DO have something in common, in that they are two very rare cases where faith in the face of a complete lack of proof (or even extensive contradictory proof) is openly encouraged, and discussions of proof are often overtly repressed. France also factors in here, as they have a consistent and very long-standing habit of taking such issues of faith to extremes. In regard to religious faith, they invented the Inquisition in 1184. No one expected the Spanish Inquisition because it didn't start until 300 years later. People died, people forgot. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:02:58 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: nosema resistance? wasRe: [BEE-L] Bee Viruses in Spain In-Reply-To: <20081013.205541.29128.0@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable deknow writes: how long should this take?=A0 should they be dead by now if put in deadouts= in mid april?=A0 obviously, no acetic acid or other treatment was made to thes= e deadouts. Reply: Walk away splits made and all equipment taken up/ No treatments and no arti= ficial feeds given. Been taking honey in yards concerned (that had samples = taken for Dr Bromenshenk), and will continue until first killer fall hard f= rost stopping bloom. Also, by the way, some of the equipment was taken to o= ther yards to take up, and taking honey in those yards too, with no problem= s seen using the equipment........But since nosema in USA since about 1914 = see no problem for what I did to correct things. Somewhere in last round of= honey taking will make a few more splits for going into winter too for mor= e numbers increase, as I don't mind doing Nov/Dec splits in strong colonies= . =A0 Dee- =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:43:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: fighting viruses In-Reply-To: <000d01c92d69$b903cda0$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 12:27 PM, James Fischer wrote: >I haven't heard anyone make the claim that any one "Synthetic Small Interfering RNA" > would be effective against any more than one specific virus at any one time. Jim, you are correct that there are common sequences. Also, a concoction can be made. Wait. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:05:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Bee Viruses in Spain In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >> Do you or does anyone know whether the queen breeders that supply Bob and >> his friends are indeed selecting for CCD survival? Absolutely! No one breed from dead colonies. Duh. The Danish beekeepers have had great success in breeding for bees nearly completely resistant to nosema (ostensibly apis, but not sure). Look at the graph in Kirsten Traynor's article in ABJ a few months ago. Took about a dozen years. > We need a higher number of queen breeders but because the work is hard with > few rewards moneywise few are interested. Amen! But time and again, bee stocks naturally-resistant to anything have been commercial flops, since commercial beeks are happier with strong honey producers that can be maintained as "no brainers" with regular application of antibiotics and miticides. I don't say that critically--simply as a matter of fact. It is good business practice for them. Despite the lack of any concerted breeding strategy, bees will continually evolve some resistances, if lack of such resistances eliminates those colonies before they pass their genes on. But resistances have costs, and there is no reason to expect bees to become completely resistant to all parasites (include bacteria and viruses under that definition). You will see resistance only when the benefits of resistance consistently outweigh the costs. In unmanaged populations, you will still see all the parasites to some degree, even though genes for resistance exist. When parasite levels are low, bees that don't expend energy on resistance can outcompete resistant bees. When parasite levels are high, the reverse occurs. Without human intervention, an uneasy equilibrium may occur, with oscillations. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:14:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: nosema resistance? wasRe: [BEE-L] Bee Viruses in Spain In-Reply-To: <44278B304F7147FCA809A09C09D6F40E@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Randy what do you think of my method? Be honest its hard to hurt my feelings! I see no problems with it, Bob. The only question that I have is whether N ceranae spores are as long-lived as those of N apis. I have seen some preliminary research that suggests that they aren't. If that's the case, it may explain why giving deadout combs a "rest" before restocking them with bees may be of benefit. Ditto with virions (live virus particles) in such combs. Acetic-fumigated combs appear to have some benefit in CCD cases, but not as much as one would expect. Note also that crashing colonies and dinks often recover, sometimes spectacularly. Don't know why, but I've seen it, as have many others who leave behind yards of dinks when they go to almonds. Could be that the colony finally ramps up an antiviral response, or who knows what? Bob, I still have far more questions than answers! Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 05:06:50 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: 2nd crash In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Yes my bees really have ccd, read archives and save my > temper. > There are only 30 posts re ccd from me (2007-2008) Hello Dave, Just because you had ccd in the past doesn’t mean you have it now. Researchers have stated that ccd has been known to disappear without a trace. So there is an ‘out’ if your looking for one. What is nice about diagnosing ccd, is when you can’t figure out the cause, you can blame it on ccd. It gives comfort to a beekeeper by giving them a ‘name’ to the undetermined cause of the problem. One of the symptoms of ccd is that when beekeepers are convinced they have ccd, they rarely will accept OR consider any suggestion that there may be another cause. So if you say your bees have ccd I will concede. > (when infection jumps, so does brood mortality) > Is this what causes collapse or > original infection? If you think you might wish to consider that it may perhaps have been varroa / DVW related, typically, a colony will tend to dwindle in population and crash during the fall. The inability of the colony to tend brood and keep it warm during this time will cause a brood mortality known as ’chilled brood’. But if you wish not to consider this, then we can still call it ccd, as symptoms prescribed to ccd colonies are so ambiguous, that almost any bee malady can be attributed to it. Best Wishes, Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:09:27 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Canadian Honey Councils asking for $ 50 millio n. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- James Fischer wrote: >When pesticides don't get airborne, bee kills >go to nearly zero hi jim, i agree with your post almost 100%...but the above, although i think generally is true, is not always true...and we have a situation in my area. the asian longhorn beetle has been found in worcester, ma and in some surrounding areas. the beetle has been here since at least 97, and the survey work (climbing trees, bucket trucks to visually inspect every host tree in the area) has just really begun. in the past, they took down a lot of trees, and treated some. because people don't want to lose their trees, they have decided they are going to cut down the infested trees, and treat the rest with injected imidacloprid. 90% of the trees in the city of worcester are norway maples. in nj, they found about 700 infested trees, and took down over 21,000 of the host trees in the area. thus far, they have found over 1500 infested trees in worcester...and since they are going to treat rather than remove the non-infested host trees, it wouldn't be unreasonable to conclude that we are going to have several tens of thousands of trees (maples, willow, horsechestnut, etc) that are injected with imidacloprid for at least 3 years running....and as i said, it's been in the area since at least 97, and the survey is really just getting started. the timing still seems to be up in the air, but according to aphis, this might have a negative impact on bees. there does not seem to be good data on the effects of this kind of application (how much ends up in the pollen, nectar, resins), nor the effects on the bees. we are working with aphis and with some researchers to analyze/monitor durring the treatment so that we can learn something...but this is an example of a pesticide application that isn't sprayed (not airborne) that i think will have a significant impact. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:10:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: fighting viruses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Insect virus researcher Michelle Flenniken, a postdoctoral scholar in the Department of Microbiology and Immunology at the University of California, San Francisco, is the newly selected Hagen-Dazs Postdoctoral Fellow at UC Davis. "We're hoping that Michelle Flenniken's expertise in molecular virology will lead to understanding one of the factors contributing to colony collapse disorder and lead to strategies that increase honeybee survival," said Lynn Kimsey, chair of the Department of Entomology and director of the Bohart Museum of Entomology. Skilled in multidisciplinary research molecular biology, microbiology, chemistry and cell biology Flenniken will focus on the biology of honeybee viruses, specifically the role of RNA interference (RNAi) in the honeybee antiviral immune responses, Kimsey said. * In 2006, Andrew Fire and Craig C. Mello shared the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for their work on RNA interference. It was evident from the very beginning that the significance of RNAi would be exceptional. The far-reaching consequences include: RNAi protects against viral infections. We know that this anti-viral mechanism is at work in plants, worms and flies, whereas it is still unclear how relevant it is for vertebrates, including man (2006 http://nobelprize.org) -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:10:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: 2nd crash Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Just because you had ccd in the past doesn’t mean you have it now I wish I have seen symptoms all thru 2008 low level because of formic trearments >keep it warm during this time Some of this dead brood in centre positions dave **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:07:28 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "honeyphil@juno.com" Subject: Re: 2 queen hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 I'm usually a reader and not a writer but I saw the two queen discussion= from a few months ago and would share my experieces. We converted 200+ = colonies to side by side, 2-deep, screened bottom colonies 4 years ago. = This winter we will change back to single deep- one queen colonies. Thes= e 2queen colonies are very difficult to maintain and keep queenright. If= one side gets stronger, even marginally, these bees will go through the= excluder and kill the other queen. If you don't use excluders this happ= ens even faster. You first dicover this queenlessness when your supers o= nly fill on one side. The workers do not mix in the supers but work excl= usively above their queen. If these colonies swarm, they both swarm at t= he same time giving two swarms to deal with. We don't treat for mites bu= t mite populations seem to be the same as a single queen hive. When thes= e colonies are right though, they will produce honey at an alarming rate= . Dealing with a colony of 100K bees can be a little daunting! Hey that = wasn't so hard. I may try this again. Phil **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:56:23 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: 2 queen hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>When these [side by side] colonies are right though, they will produce honey at an alarming rate. What were the high amount of honey you got with these colonies? Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:31:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: nosema resistance? wasRe: [BEE-L] Bee Viruses in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 14/10/2008 04:57:45 GMT Standard Time, busybeeacres@HUGHES.NET writes: * If* you have tested and know you have N. ceranae in your hives then. How would you know whether the Nosema you see is N.Apis or N. Cerana? They are very similar in a light microscope and not everybody has access to a PCR machine. Chris ************** **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:07:35 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: 2nd crash In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Thompson wrote: > I wish > I have seen symptoms all thru 2008 > low level because of formic trearments According to the researchers, colonies collapse from ccd in spite of (if I may quote from memory), “everything but the kitchen sink being thrown in the colonies” (meaning; every treatment being thrown at the problem did not help). What they have found is that there is no treatment for ccd, and formic would have no affect on it either, but might have an effect on varroa damage. > Some of this dead brood in centre positions Chilled brood is caused by more than just brood being chilled. The term is often used to describe starved brood, which if malnourished during the larval stage will cause bees to die in the cells nearing maturity, it can also be used to describe over heated brood etc. But I am seeing bee malady sites recently being more specific here, which is good. Best Wishes, Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:56:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: nosema resistance? wasRe: [BEE-L] Bee Viruses in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Dr. Robb Cramer at MSU in Bozeman has been working with us on this issue. Robb can do PCR for Nosema - and we can provide that service to beekeepers, working with him. We are taking samples, splitting them among our lab and others for various assays as requested by the beekeeper. All of the results go into a national database, so that we can look for trends and patterns. For any sample, we typically look for tracheal and varroa mites and both nosemas, Robb does PCR for nosema verifications, etc. as needed, Dave Wick of BVS runs viral surveys, and Army ECBC will do a complete analysis for all known viruses and most other bee pathogens. We can get pesticides and other analysis done, and we do our own HMF, as well as testing for about 400 volatile chemicals. However, I'm getting off the subject. The main reasons to use PCR are: 1) to positively ID the Nosema (which is important to any research on this pest, including evaluations of materials used to try to control) , and MORE importantly, because PCR is more likely to review emerging infections (Robb sees both Nosemas in samples that we looked at under the microscope and didn't find). The latter is a sampling problem - how much time, how many spots on the slide, and how many bees does one have to look at to get a given probability of detection - 50%, 75%, etc. From this perspective, PCR wins over visual inspection. However, visual inspection may be sufficient if you just want to know if you have a nosema problem. Randy Oliver, the investigators in Spain, and some in Argentina claim to be able to discriminate by the 'look' of the spores. I expect that they can, but they're not typical observers. It seems that IF you have BOTH species, you might see a difference. IF you've looked at lots of samples - as the aforementioned folks have, you MIGHT see a difference. But, if you've only one Nosema species, I doubt that most people could tell the difference based on visible characteristics. Certainly, we at Bee Alert don't feel that we can make that call with any confidence - and we've looked at lots of samples. Now, some say that Nosema apis has more or less disappeared from U.S. bees. Not so, although Robb wondered about this for some time - since he went some months without seeing N. apis. As always, we and he see N. apis in bee from some geographical areas, in the spring. Just like we'd expect. IF you see a NOSEMA at any other time of the year, its almost certainly N. ceranae. Chance of it being N. apis are VERY LOW according to Robbs data from the last year and half. And, in the spring, you can find bees with BOTH nosemas. If you've got Nosema now, good bet that its ceranae. Jerry **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000003) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************