From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:14:15 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.6 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ALL_NATURAL, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C46490AA for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3YXJ017258 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0810D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 189245 Lines: 4418 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:38:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Question: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "ALDEN MARSHALL" asked: >Do sub-lethal doses of pesticide amplify the effects of parasites, >bacteria, viruses, fungi and poor nutrition? We might also ask about the effects of sub-lethal doses of pesticide on 'parasites' in general. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:19:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Effect of oxalic acid In-Reply-To: <91B11B05D0E74AE2B62E8F7E50A77D63@homeclaude> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > I am aware of the effectiveness of dribbling oxalic acid or vaporizing it to > control mites during the broodless period but I have been unable to find any > answers in the way that it kills mites. \ Hi Claude, The mites are sensitive to acidity. It may affect them by contact, but it appears to me that they are also affected by feeding on the temporarily acidified bee haemolymph. The sugar acts as a humectant that allows the acid to better penetrate chitin. Glycerine will also work. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 07:02:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: SEVIN Carbamate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Without >further data I can only guess that the thinning mechanism is by killing all >pollinator around ;) An apple grower near me uses SEVIN for apple crop thinning several weeks after bloom ends, so the mechanism is not by killing the pollinators. It is my understanding that bees exposed to SEVIN die before returning to the hive. This 'feature' would make it better than insecticides that come back to the hive to poison house bees, brood and comb. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:03:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Crop insurance for Beekeepers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I see that an apiculture rain or vegetation index insurance is being offered to beekeepers in certain states for 2009. http://www.agroimaging.com/apiculture_2009.htm I have not had time to wade through the fine print. I'm curious to hear what other beekeepers think of this risk management tool. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:23:27 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: sub-lethal doses In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "ALDEN MARSHALL" asked: >Do sub-lethal doses of pesticide amplify the effects of parasites, >bacteria, viruses, fungi and poor nutrition I do not personally know of specific research into this, but Bayer's claim that "Premise plus nature" kills termites by making them more susceptible to disease would tend to indicate that. I found in my hives that disappearance of adults was often followed by appearance of chalkbrood and sometimes EFB, both of which are endemic here (in my equipment anyway). If I get a queen that becomes a drone layer, or laying worker colony, it is usually the same. Sub-lethal effects are still not well studied. There is a wonderful web-site for the journal "Apidologie" where you can look at the papers that have been written about this (very good search engine, and full papers with few of them that are blocked by needing a fee and goes back to 1958.) Here is one on "Modes of honeybee exposure to Systemic insecticides" that looks at the amounts of nectar and pollen consumed by different types of bee (nurse, forager, wax secretors and builders, winter...) and does some calculations based on the amount of material, it uses imidacloprid since it is so well studied, known to be in treated fields of sunflower and corn and then relates that to sub lethal effects. The full paper is at: http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/apido/pdf/2005/01/M4053.pdf Abstract - The hazard posed to honeybees by systemic insecticides is determined by toxicity tests that are designed to study the effects of insecticides applied on the aerial parts of plants, but are not adapted to systemic substances used as soil or seed treatments. Based on the available data found in the literature, this paper proposes modes of honeybees exposure to systemic insecticides by estimating their pollen and nectar consumption. Estimates are given for larvae and for the categories of adults which consume the highest amounts of - pollen, the nurse bees, and - nectar, the wax-producing bees, the brood attending bees, the winter bees, and the foraging bees. As a case study, we illustrate these estimates with the example of imidacloprid because its concentrations in sunflower nectar and in sunflower and maize pollens of seed-dressed plants have been precisely determined, and because its levels of lethal, sublethal, acute, and chronic toxicities have been extensively investigated. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:04:39 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bee Honey as an Environmental Bioindicator of Pestic ides=?WINDOW... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Honey is a poor indicators of most pesticides. Its ok in the sense that one wants to be sure that people don't eat too much contaminant, but that's usually highly unlikely, especially since most folks don't eat much honey. Yrs of our own research indicates that pollen or the forager bees themselves are better indicators of exposure for most pesticides. Jerry **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211625659x1200715650/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=82&bcd=emailf ooter) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:15:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Smith Subject: Re: SEVIN Carbamate In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10810212028g4e51960dw9fd6ab0eafb8f9c2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Juanse said: In fact a per label indication over here, SEVIN should be applied at "petal fall" which means that there is still some flowers left. I guesstimate around 10% to 20%. Apples blossom are very atractive to bees, pollen is very protein rich and nectar is thick. Labels here recommend use at 80% petal fall and up to 16mm size. However, there are three restrictions to its use regarding honeybees: 1. move them out of the orchard, 2. Do not spray if honeybees are working the orchard, and 3. If bloom is occuring on the orchard floor than mow prior to application. There are some alternatives, but I don't know how effective they are...Good luck Jim State of Jefferson **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:16:12 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: SEVIN Carbamate In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "It is my understanding that bees exposed to SEVIN die before returning to the hive. This 'feature' would make it better than insecticides that come back to the hive to poison house bees, brood and comb." SEVIN is an insecticide. It is a carbamate very poisonous to bees. Some of them die when directly in contact with the spray, but other actually come back to the hive and you continue seeing them die with spams and crawling some days after the contact. Some pollen comes back and you later (one to two weeks) see dead larvae. The main problem is that you loose most of your field bees, so the colony lasts easily one and a half month to recover strenghts. In my case colonies are in full brood box, with some 5 to 6 capped frames. Past season we didn`t receive any notice and we lost all the field force of 300 colonies. Only 5 died, the rest took a a month and a half to recover. We have to feed them during this time. This year we received notice the day before the first application (spray). We worked 24 hours non stop. Took some frames out and placed frame feeder. put mesh instead of roof and fill feeders with water. We close entrance for two days. On the third day, with the second application on 150 colonies we took all capped frames out and make some 180 nucs (frames with honey was taken from other colonies) We make the nucs with one frame of honey and two frames of capped brood plus bees atached. We had virgin queen available. The other half (150 colonies) were freed on the third day with out any managment of frames. We will inspect in 15 days to check damage. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:27:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: montveil Subject: Sevin and apples MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sevin carbaryl insecticide is NOT A BLOSSOM THINNER AND SHOULD NOT BE USED ANY TIME THERE ARE BLOSSOMS PRESENT. Typical thinning applications ,should begin when the fruit as about 3-5 mm in diameter or approximately 10 days AFTER bloom. Sprays should be no more concentrated than 2 X as the fruit must be covered for proper thinning. For Hard to thin varieties may may growers add a half rate of Natphalenic acetic acid. Sevin will thin certain varieties such as red delicious very readily ~ 1/2 pound active in 100 gallons (1 part active in 1666 parts of water by weight?) while golden delicious will take twice that amount for only fair to little thinning. Sevin ONLY thins apples, a kind of unique property. Dan V in the NC Mountains USA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:29:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: montveil Subject: SEVIN AND APPLE SPRAYING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BUT blooming weeds may be present and will cause significant bee losses. Mow before spraying and treat orchard floor in fall after picking ANY insecticide commonly used for apple insect control will cause problems montveil Dan V in the NC mountains **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:07:58 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: de roeck ghislain Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses In-Reply-To: <6A3AF186BDBB4DB1A0DD3FB3E3A2F347@AM1610E1202A> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan wrote: >I found in my hives that disappearance of adults was often >followed by appearance of chalkbrood and sometimes >EFB, both of which are endemic here (in my equipment anyway). >If I get a queen that becomes a drone layer, or laying worker >colony, it is usually the same. Interesting statement about drone layer and laying worker colonies. Do other bucks have the same experience? Ghislain. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:51:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Peter_Dight?= Subject: Re: SEVIN AND APPLE SPRAYING Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My 30 acre orchard owner hates chemicals, he's 80 years old and third generation owner of the orchard so knows his stuff, he sprays with "garlic and citrus" which apparently sorts out codling, scab, canker, and other problems and is bee friendly. He then mows sections of about 5 acres once a month in rotation so that there is a good variety of wild flowers for the bees to forage. He also uses insect traps that employ pheromones to target specific species (sorry I can't be more specific, but I'm just a beekeeper!) His orchard has a much wider diversity of wildlife than any others I know of in the area, especially those that keep the ground beneath trees clear using herbicides and insecticides.... there is another way! Peter Cambridge UK **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 09:02:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kevin Roberts Subject: Re: SEVIN AND APPLE SPRAYING In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I pollinated apples in Watsonville=2C California for years. They needed bee= s for the Red and Golden Delicious. Bees were not needed in the Newtown Pip= pins. The Newtown Pippins completed their bloom two weeks before the Delici= ous and required Sevin thinning when the Delicious were at peak bloom. Monterey County used a cut-off date for beekeeper notification=2C and publi= shed it in a local paper. When the time for the Newtown Pippin spraying cam= e up=2C they published the announcement=2C and after that Sevin could be sp= rayed anywhere in the county without notification to beekeepers. Pippin orchard blocks were interspersed throughout the county with Deliciou= s blocks=2C which meant that my bees were exposed to drift from right acros= s the fencelines and roads. The orchard floors were covered with blooming w= eeds=2C fiddleneck=2C chamomile=2C mustards=2C and so on. One of my orchard= growers had almost 40 other individual orchardists within one mile who gre= w Pippins. Coordinating with them was impossible=2C and they were not inter= ested in returning my telephone calls. The last spring I did it I just began to take my bees out of the county the= night before the spray date. This caused a great political crises=2C becau= se my growers had no bees at peak bloom. They woke up the Ag commissioner a= t midnight=2C who re-instated the Sevin ban for another week. The Pippin gr= owers howled. That was my last year. The orchards were awkward=2C with scattered bees=2C many blocks=2C mud=2C a= nd distance. At $15 per colony and the constant risk of spray=2C it just wa= sn't worth it. Kevin _________________________________________________________________ You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/= **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:08:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses In-Reply-To: <000001c934cd$50dc1370$f2943a50$@be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Stan wrote: >>I found in my hives that disappearance of adults was often >>followed by appearance of chalkbrood and sometimes EFB Stan, I've always noted the same in queenless laying worker colonies--EFB-like symptoms and chalkbrood. I've never seen this mentioned before now--do the rest of you see this? Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:07:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] No apples, no Honey, No bees : UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 21/10/2008 22:32:57 GMT Standard Time, AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU writes: <> Correct, and it's worth adding that this was the second very bad summer in a row. Some colonies will have gone into the previous winter short of stores, which will have exacerbated the problem. Add the effects of bad weather on queen mating, and the arrival of resistent mites in many areas - two autumns ago I was swamped with mites from someone else's collapsing hives, and some of my efforts have had to go into rebuilding stocks rather than producing honey - and you can see why there's a problem! That being said, this year was a little better than last, for me at least. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 16:43:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy Oliver wrote: > Stan, I've always noted the same in queenless laying worker > colonies--EFB-like symptoms and chalkbrood. I've never seen this > mentioned before now--do the rest of you see this? Yes, EFB-like symptoms - but not normally EFB. Surely there is a simple explanation for this? The colony is collapsing and the brood is all drone in worker cells, so it is neglected. Neglected brood is not properly fed, so the larvae twist out of position as they do with EFB where the larvae also starve. Chalkbrood will be exacerbated as the brood is not kept warm when neglected and the lower temperature suits chalkbrood better. Perhaps true EFB would be seen if the bacteria were present, as reduced feeding would cause the larvae to die from EFB. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 16:58:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] No apples, no Honey, No bees : UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Please do not believe all that you read in the papers. In my experience > this year the poor honey harvest is almost exclusively down to the cold > wet > weather prevalent for most of the "summer" . Agree completely. Last year's poor weather meant that colonies went into winter without adequate number of young bees - and with poorly mated queens, many of which failed during the winter. 30% losses meant that we had to rebuild our stocks this year, but the overwintered colonies were in a very poor condition this spring. We needed some good weather to get things going - but instead had very cold, dry winds for most of May when the oilseed rape was in flower. Then the rain started and we have been bogged down in mud for most of the year; some apiaries where we normally drive without problems have become unreachable - even with 4x4 and tyres with attitude! Looking back at the colonies that we had in April, it seems a miracle that we have managed to rebuild numbers - and have 50% of our normal crop. But now we are facing a similar situation to last year because the bad weather throughout the summer has left us with smaller colonies than normal with less young bees than normal - and potentially poorly mated queens. I will be surpised if we do not have losses of around 25% or more this winter. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:20:27 +0100 Reply-To: ruaryrudd@iol.ie Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Pictures of Varroa jacobsoni and Varroa destructor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I badly need photos of the two types of varroa. I have checked the archives and there was a link but it has gone dead. Can anyone help? Ruary **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 12:37:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: SEVIN AND APPLE SPRAYING Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I manage 4 orchards with a total of 1800 apple trees in addition to running 400 colonies. I have bees permanently in each orchard. I never use Sevin to thin, instead use NAA trade name Fruitone which is not lethal to bees like Sevin and is more expensive. We don't have the spread between bloom other posters discussed with the Pippin apple. So spray thinning is done long after the bloom. I have never had any issues with my bees in my orchards or experienced any losses. We also offer pollination services which we charge $60-$65 per colony, and move in and out as quickly as possible to allow before or after spraying for scab. Scab spray used in the Midwest here is mostly a combination of Captan for preventative and Nova or Sovram as a kick back. Since Captan will protect forward for up to 7-10 days and Nova or Sovram will "kick back" up to 72 hours its very possible to have bees in an orchard pollinating and over between scab sprays. Since scab is set off by rain and wet buds/leaves if the bloom period is dry the scab pressure is nil. I require in my contract that no spraying will occur while my bees are in an orchard. Here in Mn we have a apple scab hotline sponsored by the state apple growers association. The report will inform a grower if the level of scab spores are high enough to be concerned about an infection. Rain then is needed to set off an infection. Between the hotline and protective/kick back arrangement of sprays a grower and beekeepers can create a safe environment for bees to pollinate in. Many times we are below threshold during bloom and no spray is needed at all. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 13:42:17 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Bee Honey as an Environmental Bioindicator of Pestic ides=?WINDOW... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > Honey is a poor indicators of most pesticides. .... > Yrs of our own research indicates that pollen or the forager bees > themselves > are better indicators of exposure for most pesticides. Most likely true, Jerry (you're the expert!). But it is interesting that in the article I just sent an url for the pollen gathering bees take about seven days to accumulate the same amount of ng of imidacloprid as nectar gathers get in a day. I realize that these are theoretical figures, but the assumptions seem pretty reasonable to me. Stan **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:08:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: montveil Subject: Re: SEVIN Carbamate In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10810221616w6a73c654pd486d3e888f257e2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Juanse Barros wrote: Where is your reference?--- Below is a site where you will find a US Sevin label As some background, I worked for Union Carbide, the inventor of Sevin. followed by Rhone Poulenc for a total of 34 years mainly in the central and eastern US. YOU WILL NOTE THAT THE LABEL IS A LITTLE VAGUE ON THINNING. That is because every variety, growing block, vigor is different. Thinning is more of an art than science. It is wise to go slowly and see how each block/variety reacts and this stands true for any thinner.Sevin is the least affected by temperature. Even though the label suggests thinning at petal fall, in my experience, more uniform results are usually later. You can more easily evaluate the degree of thinning when small fruit is visible usually 2 but before 6 mm montveil http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld08M008.pdf **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:39:03 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote: > Yes, EFB-like symptoms - but not normally EFB. > Surely there is a simple explanation for this? The colony is collapsing > and the brood is all drone in worker cells, so it is neglected. Neglected > brood is not properly fed, so the larvae twist out of position as they do > with EFB where the larvae also starve. I believe you are quite correct Peter. What I see is chalkbrood and twisted larvae. They may be starved and not EFB infected. Stan **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 01:34:14 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: EFB-like symptoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline EFB-like symptoms It is not the same EFB than "EFB like symptoms". I have stated in a previous mail that at least in my case when I have send frames with "EFB like symptoms", all the times the lab have told me that they can not find M.pluton therefore it is not EFB. Have you check with a lab to know if it is EFB or only the "like symptoms"? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:35:22 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Pictures of Varroa jacobsoni and Varroa destructor In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ruary, Quick search revealed these http://www.forestryimages.org/browse/hostimages.cfm?sub=2629 - hope it helps. Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:08:34 +1000 Reply-To: Trevor Weatherhead Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The colony is collapsing and the brood is all drone in worker cells, so it > is neglected. Neglected brood is not properly fed, so the larvae twist > out of position as they do with EFB where the larvae also starve. I also wonder if the hive is demoralised and thus does not feed the larvae. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 00:17:32 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Pictures of Varroa jacobsoni and Varroa destructor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I badly need photos of the two types of varroa. The classic mug shots are here: http://bee-quick.com/reprints/varroa_oops.jpg For those who don't know the whole Marx Brothers Film Festival saga I like to call "Mite Bee, Might Not Be", one of the more embarrassing face-palm events in the history of "bee science" was the lack of any question from anyone for years about the massive differences in gross morphology between the upper mite (Jacobsoni) we were told we had, and the and the lower mite (Destructor) that we actually did have. Everyone missed it - me included. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 04:30:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: EFB-like symptoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 24/10/2008 01:39:38 GMT Standard Time, juanseapi@GMAIL.COM writes: Have you check with a lab to know if it is EFB or only the "like symptoms"? Vita (aka Max Watkins) do a simple diagnostic test kit that is almost affordable. Bee Inspectors use it. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 08:55:39 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Bee Honey as an Environmental Bioindicator of Pesticides=?WINDOW... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > in the article I just sent an url for the pollen > gathering bees take about seven days to accumulate > the same amount of ng of imidacloprid as nectar > gathers get in a day. I realize that these are > theoretical figures, but the assumptions seem > pretty reasonable to me. I read that paper, and the assumptions seem utterly silly to me. The reasoning, too. The apidologie.org link you provided was either broken or sluggish, so here's a different link to the same paper: http://umweltbund.de/pdf/modes_of_honeybees.pdf But the paper is utterly useless, as it contains nothing but guesses tied up in pretty bow to make them look more authoritative. I'm really surprised it made it to publication at all. Here's how they estimate the different levels of consumption of nectar: "Nectar foragers achieve 10 trips/ day on average, of about 30 to 80 min each... with a maximum of 150 trips/ day... and pollen foragers achieve 10 trips/day on average, of 10 minutes each..." Say what? Pollen foragers ALWAYS make shorter trips than nectar foragers? This faulty starting assumption is the sole reason for the higher figure for the foragers. Its a guess, nothing more, and it is a very bad guess, given than bees will always hedge their bets, foraging for BOTH pollen and nectar from multiple sources at all times, just in case the primary sources "dry up". (I'll cite Seeley's book for this, but the observation is noted everywhere by everyone.) Further, they make basic and profound errors in their assumptions of what food sources are available from where at any one point in time, and assume that all nectar, all pollen, and all honey are equally contaminated with the same exact pesticide, thusly: "As we do not know the bees' differential consumption of nectar and honey we related their sugar consumption depending on whether they consume nectar or honey." Translation - 'We guessed'. But the assumptions and poor reasoning gets worse... "With the example of sunflower, when a honeybee requires 1 mg of sugar, it will have to consume either 2.5 mg of fresh sunflower nectar or 1.25 mg of sunflower honey." But there is never going to be a hive that has both 100% of its nectar coming in from one source, nor will 100% of its honey have been made from one source, let alone the same source. No beehive is going to forage on one crop alone. It will fly miles away to forage on alternate sources, just because bees like the hedge their bets. So there would be no hive where the only choice is sunflower nectar. Further, it takes some time to make honey, so it is an absolute certainty that the honey in the hive will be from a prior bloom, rather than the same crop being currently foraged. This is basic beekeeping, and common knowledge. Bottom line, this paper bent over backwards to cherry pick a bunch of guesses and quotes from other peoples' papers to get the highest numbers possible. It is not science, it is politics wearing an ill-fitting lab coat and trying to look all pipe-smoking and professorial. There are holes in this paper that any beekeeper can drive his truck through. As such, this paper has value to beekeeping, but sadly, its only value is as smoker fuel. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:53:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Honey as an Environmental Bioindicator of Pesticides=?WINDOW... In-Reply-To: <001801c935d7$d1c8fa60$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said: > I read that paper, and the assumptions seem utterly > silly to me. The reasoning, too. > > Here's how they estimate the different levels of > consumption of nectar: > > "Nectar foragers achieve 10 trips/ day on average, > of about 30 to 80 min each... with a maximum of > 150 trips/ day... and pollen foragers achieve 10 > trips/day on average, of 10 minutes each..." > Its a guess, nothing more, and it is a very bad guess, > Translation - 'We guessed'. very bad guess? . Actually the above information the research is based on is the average given on pg.325 (pollen/ Parks, Ribbands, Singh) and pg. 327 (nectar / Herberle & Lundie) of the 1992 edition of the Hive and the Honey Bee. Sure there are variables and many studies and figures are quoted but only two average figures are given. I would say the above is an accurate figure for number of trips per day and time based on the research of the research listed in the book. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 14:32:02 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] No apples, no Honey, No bees : UK In-Reply-To: <76255F419D1D4980A52DF5DA05D07EDF@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards said:- "I will be surpised if we do not have losses of around 25% or more this winter". Peter, given your prediction and your explanation of the cause, do you embark on a protein/fat feeding regime to build up your winter bees, and if not, why not? Peter Detchon (in Western Australia, where extremes of weather are par for the course, and feeding supplementation is a normal part of my husbandry) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:40:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] No apples, no Honey, No bees : UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Detchon asked: > given your prediction and your explanation of the cause, do you embark on > a protein/fat feeding regime to build up your winter bees, and if not, why > not? I do not. This is some thing that has never been necessary in the past and I am reluctant to start now. I am gradually converting all my stocks to native bees (A.m.m.) as they seem better able to cope with these conditions. Most failures last winter were down to poorly mated queens - and native bees are generally able to mate satisfactorily under more adverse conditions (last year we had a batch of queens mate during October). I also feed very sparingly - on average 6kg of fondant per colony - and treat for varroa using only thymol crystals during August; all part of a selection process for bees that are not totally dependant on me for their survival. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 06:49:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "R.M." Subject: Treating Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is my first year with bees started from packages.=A0 They were origina= lly Buckfast bees started on 4.9 foundation which they drew out fine.=A0 I = have had a few hive beetles (most I've seen is less than 10 in a hive).=A0 = I had to requeen this fall both hives which I did with queens from Dan Purv= is.=A0 The colonies are very strong with no varoa mites, so far.=A0 There a= re no signs of noseama or any other diseases.=A0 They have plenty of honey = stored and pollen stores.=0AMy question is about treating the bees.=A0 Do y= ou wait 'till you see signs of disease before treating?=A0 I garden organic= ally, so my mindset is I don't want to give them medication if they really = don't need it.=A0 How do you make colony decisions about medicating your be= es?=A0 I was=A0first wondering about Fumagilin-B, trying to decide if they = really need to have it or not this fall.=A0 It is still warm enough for the= m to be foraging here in central GA.=A0 Can you give me pros and cons and a= dvice please?=A0 What about other medications and treatments.=A0 I did make= up sugar/shortening patties to give them.=0ARoni=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 11:27:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Treating Bees? In-Reply-To: <300383.79900.qm@web57413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline wrote: > The colonies are very strong with no varoa mites, so far. There are no > signs of noseama or any other diseases. How did you determine this? Because if you have no mites or disease, there is not much reason to treat. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 13:44:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 24/10/2008 01:33:03 GMT Standard Time, sandler@AURACOM.COM writes: <> I had something similar three weeks after gettiung my first nuc,and panicked, thinking it was EFB. I eventually found I saw the same every year, as long as I had that strain. They expanded too fast, and as soon as they encountered a bit of bad weather during the buildup, brood starved as they were unable to maintain it all. It only affected the older larvae, while chilled brood, which I also saw one year, affected larvae of all ages, and they all turned black. The chilled larvae were soon thrown out of the cells onto the hive floor, and were either eaten or thrown out. They remained a slightly yellowish white. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:51:51 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Bee Honey as an Environmental Bioindicator of Pesticides=?WINDOW... In-Reply-To: <001801c935d7$d1c8fa60$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim wrote: > given than bees will always hedge their bets, foraging > for BOTH pollen and nectar from multiple sources at > all times, just in case the primary sources "dry up". > (I'll cite Seeley's book for this, but the observation > is noted everywhere by everyone.) Canola flowers here at the end of the clover flow. Hives not in canola have little coming in. Hives in canola have hundreds of acres of canola surrounding them (only a few potato farmers here are rotating with it, but those that do have a large acreage). I would think for about two weeks the incoming nectar would not be 100%, but close enough to not have significant effect on the authors assumptions. > Further, they make basic and profound errors in their > assumptions of what food sources are available from > where at any one point in time, and assume that all > nectar, all pollen, and all honey are equally > contaminated with the same exact pesticide, They clearly state in the summary that the assumptions they made are not what would be encountered. They deal in fact with the exact criticisms you are making. The amounts calculated are so much above the sub lethal doses that they cite four papers for that they felt they could still make the conclusions they did. Stan **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 14:53:15 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] No apples, no Honey, No bees : UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you have to mollycoddle your bees because they can't cope with local environmental conditions then you are doing nothing to select for those that can cope. Of course, in some cases where bees are considered to be part of an industrial process involving grossly overstocking an area, you may have to match inputs to outputs, but I wouldn't call that husbandry. You may make more money though. Chris do you embark on a protein/fat feeding regime to build up your winter bees, and if not, why not? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:26:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Treating Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 25/10/2008 16:03:57 GMT Standard Time, rsssjm@YAHOO.COM writes: My question is about treating the bees. Do you wait 'till you see signs of disease before treating? Do you take an aspirin before you have a headache? There's enough chemical/unnatural stuff being put into hives already without adding to it unnecessarily. Why did you feed your bees when they have plenty of pollen and honey? Are you in an area with particularly prolonged and harsh winters? If you look at the list of pests and diseases that might afflict a colony of bees and try to treat all of them you'll end up out of pocket, with stressed bees and honey you (as an organic gardener) might think twice about feeding to your children. Keep an eye on those SHB though. Why did you find it necessary to requeen so soon after getting your bees? Had they superseded? Here (UK) Buckfasts have a reputation for producing a bad tempered second generation. It is interesting that they drew the 4.9 ok. Maybe it has something to do with Brother Adam's visits to Africa collecting breeding stock. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 18:48:59 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit EFB affected brood has the following as a field diagnostic: With a before collapsed larval stage, the tracheal lines are often visible through the surface. In brood that has been neglected - have not noticed this feature. What say the others? Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 04:22:51 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] No apples, no Honey, No bees : UK In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline do not mind LION, they are hobbist, they do not live out of bees, you do, Feed them, treat them make them love, lye tehm if necessary. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 08:42:34 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon asked? > the tracheal lines are often visible through the surface. In brood that > has been neglected - have not noticed this feature. No - but not sure that I have looked that carefully. For EFB I would usually look at the gut. If yellow OK, if white suspect EFB and look at under the microscope for bacteria. Neglected brood usually does not have a yellow gut - because it is not being fed - but laying workers/neglected brood would not normally lead me to suspect EFB - they look so different. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 09:55:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Treating Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > My question is about treating the bees. Do you wait 'till you see signs of disease before treating? I garden organically, so my mindset is I don't want to give them medication if they really don't need it. Hi Roni I am slated to do a talk next month on the subject of keeping bees without chemicals, to the NY association. I usually begin by explaining IPM. IPM is a system of pest control which is based on prevention and treatment only as necessary. This is different from the mindset that applies pesticides in order to prevent anticipated losses due to pests one may not even have. It is also different from the organic approach which attempts to avoid chemicals at all cost. IPM treats chemicals as a necessary evil to be used when all else fails. This being said, I would recommend using terramycin in the spring and fall because foulbrood is widespread and easy to prevent. The presence of small amounts of terramycin in the brood nest poses no real risk to you or your bees. (You will not get resistant bacteria this way, because in order for resistance to develop there has to be a viable infection. The terramycin *prevents* the spores from developing). As to the other problems, here's the deal. If you bought bees from someone else, you most likely already have nosema, varroa, viruses, and maybe even hive beetles. The question is: when will you treat? Will you wait until you can see problems? In the case of these pathogens, by the time you see it, it is usually already too late. You will need to learn to diagnose problems early and make a decision. Rolling the bees and counting mites is a good idea. If the number is very small (1-5 on 250 bees) not much to worry about; if it is high (25 or more) you have a problem coming on. I have seen very high numbers (80 on 250) and these bees don't make it. You can go 100% natural organic, but you will have to be ready to watch your bees dies off. This is easy enough to do! -- helps to rid us of susceptible bees, and perhaps they won't die in which case you will no doubt have good bees worth having. Personally, I place zero stock in small cell foundation, but drone cell foundation is a great way to trap varroa in order to get rid of them. You can hedge your bets a bit by buying resistant types like the Russians. Central to my approach is to imitate the life cycle of a colony in nature. Susceptible bees can be allowed to die off; if this gets out of hand I recommend treating enough hives so you still have some bees to get going again. The key, however, is dividing. Natural colonies swarm regularly and I believe this is partly to rejuvenate the hive (as well as to start new colonies and populate the woods). Evolution favors behaviors that ensure survival of the individual so it stands to reason that swarming must be good for a colony. The old queen and half the bees get separated from the old nest, which may be overrun by parasites. The original hive is purged of a lot of its older bees, gets a break in the brood cycle, and is repopulated by emerging young bees. Of course, we don't want our bees to swarm and head for the woods, so I recommend dividing every hive in the spring. If they bounce back quickly you can do more dividing in the summer. Old timers will tell you this will ruin your chances of a good honey crop but here's the deal: You want your bees to survive. Dead bees make no honey. Look after the survival of the bees and honey will come soon enough. If you need 100 pounds for your family's needs what do you care if it comes from one hive or four? Dividing bees is fun, and you will be surprised how fast a colony can go from four frames to four supers! To sum, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Taking aspirin to prevent headaches is certainly a dumb idea but taking aspirin to prevent heart disease is not. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 10:00:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 26/10/2008 13:33:32 GMT Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: If yellow OK, if white suspect EFB and look at under the microscope for bacteria And how would you know the bacteria you found were EFB and not something else? Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 12:09:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: EFB ( was Re: sub-lethal doses) In-Reply-To: <048EA95B82CC4F159A8DD6908B2C48A5@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards said; > No - but not sure that I have looked that carefully. For EFB I would > usually look at the gut. If yellow OK, if white suspect EFB and look at > under the microscope for bacteria. EFB is on the rise in the U.S. in commercial operations and for one simple reason. Easily mistaken for PMS & no preventive meds given in many operations. I always hesitate these days to describe the real world of commercial beekeeping as it has little in common with hobby beekeeping and the mindset of the "live and let die mindset". I do not mean to slam the mindset , quite the contrary, but in order to keep healthy bees when in holding yards of thousands then disease has to be held in check. Healthy bees are an absolute these days to survive. Moving on: EFB has long been a minor issue in the U.S. mainly because of the decades of use of terramycin which controls the disease. Things are now changing. When terramycin resistant AFB was found then many commercial beeks dropped terramycin use and either stopped using terra altogether as a AFB/EFB preventative or started using tylosin when AFB was seen (per label) or as a preventative ( against label). Stopping terramycin use gives rise to EFB getting a foothold in a large operation. True if caught in time EFB problems can be turned around but very little burning or sterilizing takes place in the U.S. Because tylosin as no effect on EFB then EFB once it gets a foothold can spread through an outfit. Now what has changed is that the larger operations are having problems controlling varroa. Why? Hives are being forced to raise brood for longer times of the year in order to make grade in almonds and also produce brood for splits. Raising brood means raising varroa. Some outfits are losing 50% of their hives yearly ( Mendes 2008 ABF convention speech) due to various reasons. Constant splitting after various pollinations has become a common practice( also from the Mendes speech). Keeping bees in hives by splitting whenever hives are strong enough to split has saved many operations. Most large operators spilt more than once a year now. Also a form of varroa control.( as pointed out by Peter B. in his post) When varroa issues rise then parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) raises its ugly head. PMS can be spotted at a glance by most commercial beeks. Common in hives these days. Talked about on BEE-L by both Randy Oliver and myself.(BEE-L archives) In fact we have both noticed that what is different today is that *virus* issues are *now* being found in hives which are *not* over varroa threshold. A fact Dr. Shiminuki (Ret. head of Beltsville and named PMS) never told us 20 years ago might happen. My *personal opinion* is the reason we now see PMS in hives with varroa loads below threshold is because of a bees weakened immune system. Once the beek gets control of nosema C. and other problems I see less PMS in hives with varroa loads below threshold. I see less EFB in strong healthy hives also but not sure exactly why this is. If still reading my point is that PMS and EFB look very similar and without testing ( as pointed out by others in the discussion) it can be hard to tell EFB from PMS which can lead to deadout boxes being repopulated later in the season (or right away) giving rise to new EFB problems in new splits. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 14:00:43 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Bee Honey as an Environmental Bioindicator of Pesticides=?WINDOW... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The amounts calculated are so much above the sub > lethal doses that they cite four papers for that they > felt they could still make the conclusions they did The amounts calculated were the result of adding up theoretical accumulated exposure over lengthy periods of time. But imidacloprid DOES NOT bio-accumulate in bees. This is a crucial point. It invalidates the conclusions completely. This adding up of theoretical accumulated exposure is thereby inherently invalid, as bees can metabolize imidaclopird. Suchail et all (2003, ("Metabolism of Imidacloprid in Apis mellifera" Pest Mnmgt Science; 60, 291-296)) found that the metabolism half-life of imidacloprid in honey bees was 4.5 to 5 hours with no detectable residues found in bees 24 hours after exposure I hope that I am being clear here - very basic assumptions made were wrong. The math was wrong, as it assumed bio-accumulation. >> bees will always hedge their bets, foraging >> for BOTH pollen and nectar from multiple >> sources at all times > Hives in canola have hundreds of acres of > canola surrounding them The example crop used in the paper was Sunflowers. There aren't any Sunflower plantings in France anywhere near the size of Canadian canola fields, so there certainly would be other blooms for bees to choose instead of Sunflowers. The uniquely massive Canadian canola fields would make the foraging times for both nectar and pollen both much shorter than the paper's estimates, so for canola, the nectar forager food consumption would be far lower, and any presumed contamination also lower. But none of the "math" matters, as any adding up of exposure over periods greater than a few hours was inherently invalid. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 07:21:39 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Bee Honey as an Environmental Bioindicator of Pesticides=?WINDOW... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> bees will always hedge their bets, foraging >> for BOTH pollen and nectar from multiple >> sources at all times > Hives in canola have hundreds of acres of > canola surrounding them The example crop used in the paper was Sunflowers. There aren't any Sunflower plantings in France anywhere near the size of Canadian canola fields. Also, the uniquely massive Canadian canola fields would make the foraging times for both nectar and pollen both much shorter than the paper's estimates, so for canola, the nectar forager food consumption would be far lower, and any presumed contamination lower. In fact, canola is an excellent example to illustrate to Bob H just how wild the guesses about foraging trips/times were. > The amounts calculated are so much above the sub > lethal doses that they cite four papers for that they > felt they could still make the conclusions they did But they neglected perhaps the most basic point of all - imidacloprid DOES NOT bio-accumulate in bees! The adding up of accumulated exposure over time would inherently be invalid, as bees can metabolize imidaclopird. Suchail et all (2003) found that the metabolism half-life of imidacloprid in honey bees was 4.5 to 5 hours with no detectable residues found in bees 24 hours after exposure ("Metabolism of Imidacloprid in Apis mellifera" Pest Mnmgt Science; 60, 291-296) I did not mention this before as I did not want to be so bluntly insulting to the authors of the paper, but the bare-metal truth is that they made, as I said, basic and profound errors, and the lack of understanding of the metabolization of imidicloprid is perhaps the most basic. Stunningly basic. Devastatingly profound. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:18:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Treating Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 26/10/2008 16:26:26 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: The key, however, is dividing. Natural colonies swarm regularly and I believe this is partly to rejuvenate the hive To amplify what Peter wrote: the shook swarm will separate the bees from many of their pests and diseases. If you shake them onto starter strips and leave it for a couple of days before giving them a feed (if there's little nectar coming it) they will digest any AFB spores in their guts. There will be a break in brood rearing so any mites they're carrying will be desperate to breed and will enter the first new brood cells just before they are capped. Time it right and you will be able to remove that first patch of sealed brood and take away the vast majority of the mites. You can do this at dandelion time so they have time to re-build their strength before the main flow. You've probably solved most of the usual problems for the season in one go. A less drastic method is the artificial swarm. This is done in the swarming season ie, when there are drones around. The queen, on a frame of unsealed brood, is placed on the old site and frames with starter strips fill the remainder of the brood nest. Add queen excluder and supers. All the flying bees will return to reinforce her. At first they will have a strong foraging force and virtually no brood to feed, and nowhere but the supers to put the incoming nectar (maybe it would be a good idea to add another super if there's a flow on). Again, remove the first sealed brood with the mites. The remainder of the colony will have plenty of stores [check - feed if really necessary] and nurse bees but no queen substance. They will rear queen cells. Sometimes in their rush they may choose larvae above the optimum age so be prepared to look in on day 4 and remove any that are already sealed PROVIDED that there are also some unsealed ones. The remainder are of known maximum age and so you can plan what to do next according to your needs. You could take a crop of queen cells to re-queen other colonies if you are satisfied with the initial colony's health and temper. You could split again to make further increase. Simplest would be to allow the new queen to emerge, mate and start laying. Again, remove the first sealed brood. After that you can run the two hives as separate colonies; you can use the daughter colony to reinforce the parent from time to time during the season by moving it to the other side of the parent. Towards the end of the season you can unite them, allowing the bees, in their own time, to choose between mother and daughter. Then you have only one strong colony to get through the winter. One last point: if you use starter strips the hive must be level. This is easily achieved with a spirit level (or a bottle of drink) and some wooden wedges. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:28:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: EFB ( was Re: sub-lethal doses) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 26/10/2008 17:47:10 GMT Standard Time, busybeeacres@HUGHES.NET writes: I see less EFB in strong healthy hives also but not sure exactly why this is. With EFB, the larva dies of starvation as the bacteria in its gut eat most of her food. It is then removed from the colony intact, taking its load of bacteria with it. In a strong healthy colony there are enough nurse bees to feed the larva enough for it to survive the larval stage, pupate (defecating in the process) and emerge as an adult which then cleans the cells, followed by feeding the next lot of babies, passing on the EFB in the process. The beekeeper won't see any sign of the EFB until the colony becomes stressed for some reason, leaving a shortage of nurse bees. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:27:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: EFB ( was Re: sub-lethal doses) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob Harrison wrote: > I always hesitate these days to describe the real world of commercial >beekeeping as it has little in common with hobby beekeeping and the mindset >of the "live and let die mindset". I do not mean to slam the mindset I, for one, have spent a great deal of time on Bee-L defending commercial beekeeping and the type of beekeeping that is done. To me, there doesn't have to be a sharp distinction, keeping in mind that small-timers may have more time to devote more attention to bees, while commercials have to keep the numbers up to stay in business. Further, whenever I talk about chemicals and bees, I always remind people that it may be impossible for them to keep their bees alive without treating with any or all the products on the market. It depends a great deal on your location. If you are surrounded by lots of beekeepers who are treating you may get away without treating, or you may end up with all their problems in your lap. Each person must work this out for themselves, what does it take to keep bees alive? Just like gardening. If you can grow stuff without spraying, who wouldn't? If you don't care if the deer eat up all your veggies, so be it. On the subject of terramycin, I agree whole-heartedly with Bob that it is a big mistake to switch to tylosin IF you don't have a problem with resistant AFB. I think a lot of guys did it because they thought newer is better. But as Bob said, you lose terramycin's ability to prevent EFB as well as AFB. In fact, some are recommending terramycin during build-up even though foulbrood is not present -- because the colonies seem to do better with it. Whether the use of antibiotics is natural or not depends on your point of view. In the real world there is no such thing as natural or artificial; there are winners and losers. The use of antibiotics goes back thousands of years in any case and many antibiotics are in fact naturally occurring substances; as we have pointed out before the gut of most organisms is teeming beneficial organisms whose function may not be known. > The first known use of antibiotics was by the ancient Chinese over 2,500 years ago. Many other ancient cultures, including the ancient Egyptians, ancient Greeks and medieval Arabs already used molds and plants to treat infections, owing to the production of antibiotic substances by these organisms. Quinine became widely used as a therapeutic agent in the 17th century for the treatment of malaria, the disease caused by Plasmodium falciparum, a protozoan parasite. In 1877 Louis Pasteur and Robert Koch observed that an airborne bacillus could inhibit the growth of Bacillus anthracis. The antibiotic properties of Penicillium sp. were first described in England by John Tyndall in 1875. However, his work went by without much notice from the scientific community until Alexander Fleming's discovery of Penicillin. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:02:29 +1000 Reply-To: Trevor Weatherhead Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: Treating Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote > This being said, I would recommend using terramycin in the spring and > fall because foulbrood is widespread and easy to prevent. The presence > of small amounts of terramycin in the brood nest poses no real risk to > you or your bees. (You will not get resistant bacteria this way, > because in order for resistance to develop there has to be a viable > infection. The terramycin *prevents* the spores from developing). Is AFB prevented? To me it is just masking the symptoms and it will break out again at a later time. This was shown in an experiment in Australia by Dr. Ben Oldroyd when hives with AFB treated with oxytetracycline cleared up initially but starting breaking down in a few months after treatment (from memory) and were still breaking down 15 month later. If the oxytet stops the spores from developing, then how did the resistance of the vegetative stage occur? There must have been some oxytet in the hive for the vegetative stage to become resistant. If AFB is so widespread, how does it survive in colonies to become a source of infection for other hives in the area? I would have thought that if the treatment is preventing the AFB, how then does it get spread around? It should be the case that if the oxytet is preventing the AFB, there must be a stage reached where there is no more AFB in the hive? It has been shown that if you treat with oxytet, you will get residues in your honey, not just in the brood nest. If someone eats that honey who is allergic to antibiotics, then they can have a severe reaction. The withholding period is a lot longer than we care to admit. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:19:12 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Treating Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote: > The queen ... is placed on the old site and frames with starter strips > fill the > remainder of the brood nest. ... At first they will have a strong foraging > force > ... and nowhere but the supers to put the incoming nectar. One small point: they will also have nowhere but the supers to put the incoming pollen. I prefer to give some drawn comb in the brood box to avoid this problem, although I believe that Chris may welcome pollen in his supers. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 20:27:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses In-Reply-To: <4903944B.8010605@rogers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline r> With a before collapsed larval stage, the tracheal lines are often visible > through the surface. Ditto here, plus typical twisting, and size of larva. These past two years I've seen sick larvae of all kinds of color (lots of yellows throughout the body), smells, twisting, sacking, etc. PCR has found SBV, BQCV, and a bit of AFB (but no clinical signs). I also suspect other viruses, esp since there appear to be multiple spikes under IVDS analysis (thanks to Dr Bromenshenk). Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 08:22:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Treating Bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Is AFB prevented? To me it is just masking the symptoms and it will break >out again at a later time. If you don't have AFB, and you use terramycin, it prevents it. For example, your hive robs a sick one and brings back spore laden honey. The terramycin prevents an infection from developing. The spores are eventually eliminated by house-cleaning. >If the oxytet stops the spores from developing, then how did the resistance >of the vegetative stage occur? There must have been some oxytet in the hive for the vegetative stage to become resistant. TM is used to treat advanced infections. This gives the AFB long-term exposure to TM and will allow resistant strains to develop. I am not recommending using TM to treat advanced cases though we know it works on light infections. >If AFB is so widespread, how does it survive in colonies to become a source >of infection for other hives in the area? For example, hive dies from foulbrood. Swarm repopulates it, fills it with honey, gets foulbrood and dies leaving large quantity of AFB honey. Your hive robs it out, gets foulbrood. >It has been shown that if you treat with oxytet, you will get residues in >your honey, not just in the brood nest. Perhaps, but I believe these amounts are infinitesimal. Far less that one would get from, say, chicken. OK, no need to use TM. But if you don't you will have to destroy what cases of AFB you encounter. Personally, I try to prevent that. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:19:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Treating Bees? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 26-Oct-08, at 9:55 AM, Peter L Borst wrote: >> , so I recommend dividing every hive in the spring. > If they bounce back quickly you can do more dividing in the summer Hi Peter and all Great answer Peter! I have read several times about splitting the queen and all the uncapped brood(with covering nurse bees) to a new location just before the main honey flow, leaving the original location with no brood to care for and additional emerging workers to join the foraging force. A queen cell is given to the original hive. The proponents, CC Miller, Warre and others, suggest that this hive will produce larger honey crops. I believe that with varroa today the 2 week break in brood is almost as good a reason. The split hive will likely be strong enough for the goldenrod flow. Any experience? Opinions? Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 08:18:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: EFB ( was Re: sub-lethal doses) In-Reply-To: <51A9568A0D5A4FE4BBDECD64EE261733@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Bob, I'm curious about this statement: > Because tylosin as no effect on EFB then EFB once it gets a foothold can spread through an outfit. Dr Mussen also told me that it is not effective against EFB. However, Tylosin has FDA registration against both AFB and EFB. The catalogs list it as a cure for nonspecific "foulbrood." An Australian paper lists it as being effective against EFB. I've been searching the literature, but am not finding much info on the efficacy of tylosin against EFB. However, in a few colonies that I've had that appeared to be suffering from EFB, a couple of tylosin dustings appeared to be effective at eliminating whatever disease they had. I'm interested in your field experience and reports. Are commercial beeks finding tylosin to be ineffective against EFB? > Hives are being forced to raise brood for longer times of the year in order to make grade in almonds and also produce brood for splits. Raising brood means raising varroa. This is a great point. Those new to late summer supplementary feeding will need to adjust their mite management strategies, since late feeding ramps up varroa levels. > Keeping bees in hives by splitting whenever hives are strong enough to split > has saved many operations. Most large operators spilt more than once a year > now. This is a common factor that I hear from successful almond pollinators. I also use it to good effect myself. Each time you split, varroa gets set back. > In fact we have both noticed that what is different today is that *virus* issues > are *now* being found in hives which are *not* over varroa threshold. Yes, something has clearly changed in the past several years! >Once the beek gets control of nosema C. and other problems I see less PMS in hives with > varroa loads below threshold. This recurrence of what we call "PMS" after not seeing it for a number of years (at least in my operation) is of great interest to me. I certainly saw it in a number of colonies in my nosema test yard, but not in the majority, despite infections in the 5M spore range. I do not doubt that nosema is a problem, but I'm suspecting that there are more important factors. > If still reading my point is that PMS and EFB look very similar I'm still reading : ) Yes, very hard for me to tell apart. I may be forced to learn some new microscopy methods. The big question is what actually is "PMS"? It's a syndrome, not necessarily a specific pathogen. > which can lead to deadout boxes being repopulated later in the > season (or right away) giving rise to new EFB problems in new splits. Good point! The main difference that I see in my nosema test yards is that colonies with good brood patterns appear to thrive, whereas those with spotty brood patterns (due to who knows what) stay stuck, or go downhill. Has anyone on the List used Mann Lake's premixed TM/crisco patties? Please contact me off list. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:20:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Treating Bees? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Pete, >>If the oxytet stops the spores from developing, then how did the resistance >>of the vegetative stage occur? I'm with Trevor on this one. Treating prophyllactically with oxytet will still allow only resistant AFB mutations to survive. Re the "Live and Let Die" method of survivor stock. This method is exactly the same as what occurs in nature. However, the beekeeper need not practice it to gain the same benefit. The way around letting unfit colonies die, is to go ahead and treat them. But don't let them produce drones or queens the next spring. The end result is the same--only fit genetics will be promoted. But you can still keep your unfit colonies alive until you replace their queens with more fit queens that you breed from those colonies that didn't require treatment. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:54:56 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Treating Bees? In-Reply-To: <860EE7AD162F4E94A3612FC43DFD294C@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One small point: they will also have nowhere but the supers to put the=20 incoming pollen.=A0 I prefer to give some drawn comb in the brood box to av= oid=20 this problem, although I believe that Chris may welcome pollen in his=20 supers. Reply:Peter and ChrisSee nothing wrong with pollen in supers and in fact it= would seem more natural for the bees and their health to have them put it = where they want it. How did beekeepers get into mode that bees were not all= owed to have pollen in honey supers? It certainly is not a naturalcollectio= n or storage procedure for them is it?=A0Dee A. Lusby=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 13:27:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alf Bashore Subject: Checkerboarding?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks, The recent Bee Culture issue contains an article that mentions queen egg laying rates. The author mentions building colony strength by checkerboarding. I have not seen this term in any of my numerous beekeeping books, new or old. Does anyone on this list have an explanation for the term "checkerboarding?" Thank you, Alf **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:20:08 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Checkerboarding?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Alf Walt Wright's technique is described here: http://www.k4vb.com/Walt's%20BIO%20reduced.htm And Dennis Murrell's take on it is described here: http://www.bwrangler.com/lche.htm all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:53:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: EFB ( was Re: sub-lethal doses) In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10810270818m5da813e3i5176566e3fd60c19@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Dr Mussen also told me that it is not effective against EFB. However, > Tylosin has FDA registration against both AFB and EFB. My experience and those of others has been tylosin does not control EFB. When I made my trip North last year in October stopping at commercial operations I heard of beeks which have had to go back to terramycin in order to control documented EFB. In two cases beeks have told me that the EFB problem surfaced after feeding tylosin both spring and the fall before. > I'm interested in your field experience and reports. Are commercial > beeks finding tylosin to be ineffective against EFB? I believe many beeks quit feeding terra when tylosin was registered. Also many quit feeding terra when the USDA-ARS said AFB resistant to terra had been found. Those new to late summer supplementary feeding > will need to adjust their mite management strategies, since late > feeding ramps up varroa levels. David Vanderdusen talked about the issue when using Miteaway 2. David said 4 months varroa control with constant brood rearing. I immediately went home from the convention and did my own testing and found that around 5 months you start seeing varroa loads approaching threshold and K wings starting to appear. More than one mature varroa in cells. Important: The above does not apply to the hobby beek which feed little and does not crank up his/her bees by feeding pollen patties & syrup prior to almonds/ 6 weeks in almonds/ then into other pollinations or feeding before making splits. It is my opinion that many hives need varroa testing and in many cases treatment twice a year when using formic or thymol. Three times in certain cases in commercial settings is not unusual. > Yes, something has clearly changed in the past several years! My *opinion* after almost fifty years of being involved in beekeeping ( and applies to CCD) is that we are seeing a breakdown of the bees immune system. Not a single cause will ever be found. Which makes research very difficult because a single scenario will never fit all cases. When I started beekeeping in the 1950's as a sideline migratory beek in Florida (working for commercial beeks) we NEVER saw bees like we see today. I have an excellent memory ( my doctor says photographic but only when I focus). I can describe the house I lived in when 3 years old and from then on. Sadly before 3 years is a blur. My point in is you could simply place a hive on a location, place supers on, remove the crop and maybe sprinkle terra once a year. Good bees! if the hive swarmed then 90% of the time you might not get a honey crop but the hive requeened. Not today! My opinion: Genetics today is a big issue and could explain quite a bit of the issue. Genetics was the final answer put forth by the USDA-ARS on "disappearing disease". The best bees I have seen lately have been from imported genetics. However most of the large queen producers do sell good bees but *in my opinion* survive poorly unless varroa and nosema are controlled. I have never seen PMS in my Russian hives and I have ran close to 500 over the years. The Russian bee can carry a close to threshold varroa load without virus issues. My last batch 2008 line comes from a Russian queen breeder which says he has used no treatments for mites for 9 years. I admit the Russian bee is not as productive as my other lines. In fact despite the Russian breeder claims are close to last place in honey production but still a big step in the bee we need to repopulate the feral population. Excellent winter bee. > This recurrence of what we call "PMS" after not seeing it for a number > of years (at least in my operation) is of great interest to me. I think first one needs to see if PMS or simple EFB. EFB was found in some CCD yards. The test kit from Dadant works from my excperience. Quick and essy field diagnosis. The big question is what actually is "PMS"? > It's a syndrome, not necessarily a specific pathogen. The Dr. Shiminuki description is what you see when virus issues arrise when hives are over varroa threshold and in the last stages of crashing. Also not any detectable known bee problem cause. Such as EFB. When samples were sent to Beltsville and no detectable issue other than high varroa load the sample was deemed PMS. PMS is a bit more scatered and the heads of larva are sticking from cells as compared to EFB but the new test is the best confirmation for the novice. Hygienic hives when strong can keep signs down and all you see can be holes in brood pattern with EFB. However with hives over varroa threshold and crashing PMS is easy to spot due to poor housekeeping. One curious fact when looking over pictures of CCD deadout brood comb was the lack of PMS symptoms which led me from the start to doubt a serious varroa issue was the main cause. However as I pointed out on BEE-L a few years ago ( archives) when a lady beek held up her (claimed) CCD comb on a program that the frames were all full of obvious PMS which led me to believe her problems might have been related to poor varroa control or possibly even EFB. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:47:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit back to the topic of sublethal in the latest ABJ Nov 2008 issue in Jerry Hayes Classroom Column Jerry comments about the use of Imid to fight insects on shade trees and says " I was just at a meeting today that shows the Imidacloprid in as little as 5ppb can result in as much as 70% bee mortality in developing pupae when the larval food includes Imidacloprid." Must be some new research in the pipeline - should be interesting..... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 07:43:39 +1000 Reply-To: Trevor Weatherhead Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: Treating Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote > If you don't have AFB, and you use terramycin, it prevents it. For > example, > your hive robs a sick one and brings back spore laden honey. The > terramycin > prevents an infection from developing. The spores are eventually > eliminated > by house-cleaning. How are the spores eliminated from honey by house cleaning? My understanding is that the hygienic bees remove the vegetative stage in the cleaning phase. If the spores are in the honey, unless that honey is removed e.g. eaten or extracted, then the spores must still be in the hive. As I understand it bees do not have a filter process where they can remove spores from honey. > For example, hive dies from foulbrood. Swarm repopulates it, fills it with > honey, gets foulbrood and dies leaving large quantity of AFB honey. Your > hive robs it out, gets foulbrood. If there was a feral hive there would not the wax moth destroy the comb so there would not be a source of AFB spores? If it was managed hive that died out then I could see the problem but if a beekeeper is "on the ball" then they should be picking up these hives before they can be re-colonised. Robbing of that hive could be source but if the treatment is working then the hive should not be getting AFB. This is where I disagree in the treating stopping the hive from getting AFB. It only delays the inevitable and the beekeeper is spreading infected material throughout the beekeeping operation. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:19:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Treating Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Based upon my experience resistant AFB is fairly rare; in my area most cases can be traced back to one original beekeeper who sold hives to the others. My theory is that resistant AFB is developed in colonies with long term infections in the presence of terramycin; either patties, syrup, or perhaps residual terramycin left from years of over-use. I do not see how a hive that never gets foulbrood due to preventative use of terramycin, could then develop resistant bacteria. The spores cannot develop anything in the spore stage. I am not sure if anyone has really figured this one out. Of course, you can get it from someone else, as I have suggested. By the way, it appears that tylosin can clear up EFB though it is not labeled for this use. Again, I would avoid tylosin unless you really need it, because it does build up in the hives. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:35:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Treating bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: >>> If you don't have AFB, and you use terramycin, it prevents it. For example, your hive robs a sick one and brings back spore laden honey. The terramycin prevents an infection from developing. The spores are eventually eliminated by house-cleaning.<<<<< This sounds good but how would you ever know they were eliminated? You are thus stuck treating forever. And stuck incubating resistant AFB >>>TM is used to treat advanced infections.<<<< In your scenario there would not be any >>>>This gives the AFB long-term exposure to TM <<<< Why. Throw away some comb and treat. It clears up. >>>>and will allow resistant strains to develop.<<<< Resistance develops when the occasionally germinating spores grow up with a low level background of TM to exist in. Such as is provided when the wax and the whole hive become imbued with the drug. Eventually hardier animals make it. Nature has eternity. >>>> I am not recommending using TM to treat advanced cases though we know it works on light infections.<<<< Cases are either clinical or sub-clinical. If you see it, it's clinical. If it (TM) works, it works. If you shake the bees to new comb you have a light infection. >>> OK, no need to use TM. But if you don't you will have to destroy what cases of AFB you encounter. Personally, I try to prevent that.<<<< What you are preventing is the possibility of recognizing bees that can handle the infection. This is how we got where we are, with resistant AFB. Tylosin will become a fading bullet too since it is already being used as you recommend for Terra. Can't we learn. As was mentioned: Better to treat piecemeal and change the queen and try again for a better bee. Dick Marron **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 20:15:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Treating Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 27/10/2008 11:55:10 GMT Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: they will also have nowhere but the supers to put the incoming pollen. ...I believe that Chris may welcome pollen in his supers. Certainly. It is delicious, nutritious and marketable. But I don't think that they will concentrate much on pollen collection with so little brood. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 20:27:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Treating Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 27/10/2008 12:32:34 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: For example, hive dies from foulbrood. Swarm repopulates it, Ah - wax moth - the beekeepers friend! Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 20:34:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Treating Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 27/10/2008 13:04:40 GMT Standard Time, bobbee@INTERLOG.COM writes: to a new location just before the main honey flow, This is ok if you have a regular, predictable and dependable honey flow, but in England.... Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:40:02 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Bee Honey as an Environmental Bioindicator of Pesticides=?WINDOW... In-Reply-To: <001801c9379d$26504e00$6501a8c0@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim wrote: > This adding up of theoretical accumulated exposure > is thereby inherently invalid, as bees can metabolize > imidaclopird. Suchail et all (2003, ("Metabolism > of Imidacloprid in Apis mellifera" Pest Mnmgt Science; > 60, 291-296)) found that the metabolism half-life of > imidacloprid in honey bees was 4.5 to 5 hours with no > detectable residues found in bees 24 hours after exposure The link that you provided to the paper that I referenced did not have the reference page for the paper. The apidologie link does have the reference page (you would have seen that Seely, who you referred to, and Suchail are both referenced). Suchail in fact, is the co author of the paper with Guez that has the lowest sub lethal dose I have seen for imidacloprid in bees. The following is taken from a government report (California) quoting Suchail: "Imidacloprid is highly toxic to honeybees (Apis mellifera), with a reported LD50 of 8 ng/bee. Actual toxicity varies widely depending on honeybee subspecies and type of exposure. Acute oral toxicity LD50 values for both Apis mellifera mellifera and Apis mellifera caucasica areapproximately 5 ng/bee, while contact LD50 values are 14 ng/bee for A. m. caucasica and 24 ng/bee for A. m. mellifera (Suchail et al., 1999). Imidacloprid is toxic in smaller doses when ingested over an extended period: chronic LD50 values range from 0.01-1.0 ng/bee (Suchail et al., 2001). Low doses of imidacloprid and imidacloprid metabolites have been found to negatively affect honeybee foraging and learning behavior (Decourtye et al., 2003, 2004). So, the author of the paper you represented as showing that imidacloprid "disappears" from the bee, is one showing a CHRONIC lethal dose50 down to an incredibly low 0.01ng/bee. Compare that value with the theoretical values in the paper on systematic insecticide risks and you will see that it is orders of magnitude lower. > But imidacloprid DOES NOT bio-accumulate in bees. > > This is a crucial point. > It invalidates the conclusions completely. Obviously the chronic lethality (many papers including those of Bayer show that the LD50 for 96 hours is far less than the LD50 for 48 hours) means that if it is not bio accumulating then it is pretty darn harmful to the bee in its metabolization. And that validates the conclusions. Suchail, S., D. Guez, and L.P. Belzunces. 1999. Characteristics of imidacloprid toxicity in two Apis mellifera subspecies. Environ. Toxicol. Chem. 19(7): 1901-1905. Suchail, S., D. Guez, and L.P. Belzunces. 2001. Discrepancy between acute and chronic toxicity induced by imidacloprid and its metabolites in Apis mellifera. Environ. Toxicol. Chem. 20(11): 2482-2486. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:00:17 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Bee Honey as an Environmental Bioindicator of Pesticides=?WINDOW... In-Reply-To: <001801c9379d$26504e00$6501a8c0@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > This adding up of theoretical accumulated exposure > is thereby inherently invalid, as bees can metabolize > imidaclopird. Suchail et all (2003, ("Metabolism > of Imidacloprid in Apis mellifera" Pest Mnmgt Science; > 60, 291-296)) found that the metabolism half-life of > imidacloprid in honey bees was 4.5 to 5 hours with no > detectable residues found in bees 24 hours after exposure Below is from the abstract for the Suchail paper on chronic toxicity. Judge for yourself whether "adding up accumulated exposure is inherently invalid": Environmental Toxicology and Chemistry DISCREPANCY BETWEEN ACUTE AND CHRONIC TOXICITY INDUCED BY IMIDACLOPRID AND ITS METABOLITES IN APIS MELLIFERA Séverine Suchail, David Guez, and Luc P. Belzunces ...To test chronic toxicity, worker bees were fed sucrose solutions containing 0.1, 1, and 10 μg/L of imidacloprid and its metabolites for 10 d. Fifty percent mortality was reached at approximately 8 d. Hence, considering that sucrose syrup was consumed at the mean rate of 12 μl/d and per bee, after an 8-d period the cumulated doses were approximately 0.01, 0.1, and 1 ng/bee (0.1, 1, and 10 μg/kg). Thus, all tested compounds were toxic at doses 30 to 3,000 (olefin), 60 to 6,000 (imidacloprid), 200 to 20,000 (5-OH-imidacloprid), and >1,000 to 100,000 (remaining metabolites) times lower than those required to produce the same effect in acute intoxication studies. For all products tested, bee mortality was induced only 72 h after the onset of intoxication. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 02:45:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Spain: Neurotoxic pesticides and bee dissapearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.ecologistasenaccion.org/spip.php?article12555 -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 02:25:48 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Checkerboarding?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Does anyone on this list have an explanation for the term "checkerboarding?" The premise behind checkerboarding is that bees want to have a continuous broodnest and honey storage areas. They plug away at any gaps in the nest continuity. You can take adavantage of this trait in one more way help weaker colonies or packages develop faster. If the temps are favorable and the nest is not drafty, you can monitor the queen's egg laying and add additional frames - one or two at either end of the brood nest - behind the outer most frames with brood. The queen will lay in those frames as soon as the bees prepare the cells. The bees will work extra hard to restore the nest continuity leading to a faster build-up. You must take that the night temps don't drop too low and chill the brood. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 03:27:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: the fungus Metarhizium Anisopliae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sioux Honey, researchers probe bee colony collapse http://tinyurl.com/6y4ekx -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 03:36:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: So, don=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=92t?= miss Randy Oliver MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.colfaxrecord.com/detail/96446.html -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 03:57:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: $2.8 million dollar research projec MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Prince George, B.C.- Genome B.C. has launched a $2.8 million dollar research project to find a way to stop the decline of bees. The announcement was made today at a special conference on bees underway in Prince George. http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/11055/1/buzzing+is+all+about+saving+bees -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 05:51:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Treating bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/10/2008 02:50:07 GMT Standard Time, dickm@SNET.NET writes: Better to treat piecemeal and change the queen and try again for a better bee. I remember, probably 20 years or more ago, Roger Morse telling me that he had colonies to which he couldn't give AFB! Incidentally I was standing behind the cameraman when the photo of the AFB roping was taken that appears in Hooper and Morse's Encyclopedia of Beekeeping. My only claim to fame! Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 07:02:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Checkerboarding?? In-Reply-To: <20081027.222548.26857.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > The premise behind checkerboarding is that bees want to have a > continuous broodnest and honey storage areas. They plug away at > any gaps in the nest continuity. > > The bees will work extra hard to restore the nest continuity > leading to a faster build-up. I wonder about this "checkerboarding" business. Personally, I would never break up the bees broodnest by inserting empty combs between combs of brood. I would think that any given colony would maintain a certain sized broodnest. Adding empty combs between combs of brood might increase the overall size of the brood nest, but when the brood hatches, the bees would go back to the size broodnest that they are able to manage. Why would adding combs lead to a faster buildup? would "checkerboarding" cause the queen to lay more eggs? And, "checkerboarding" the honey supers which is what I've been lead to believe is what "checkerboarding" is all about... Considering how much time it would take to "checkerboard" supers, why would you not just place an empty extracting super of comb above the broodnest. Would that not yield the same results, without the huge increase in workload for the beekeeper? Mike **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 07:30:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Treating Bees? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline When I started keeping bees, the colonies I bought had AFB. I followed the State Bee Inspector's advice: killed the bees and burnt the frames. That included a chimney fire with the supers which was fairly exciting. I did use Terra for about three years after that, but stopped and have never bothered to use it since. The incidence of AFB in Maine has stayed about 4% and that seems consistent with the commercial colonies that come in for blueberry pollination. The only time I have seen it since is with a beekeeper who had it, did not treat or burn his equipment, but took his bees to blueberries and contaminated the other pollinator's hives.He no longer keeps bees. As a hobby beekeeper, I would not, and do not, treat if there is no sign of the disease. If there is a sign, and it is fairly easy to spot, I would burn the infected equipment. My experience is that if you do that, you are free from worry over it still being in the boxes. This thread started a a question from a beginner who indicated he had no mites or disease and if he should treat.. However, my question still stands which is how do you know that you have neither mites or disease? For me that is really the key as to what action to take. My concern is, that as a beginner, you might not recognize that you have problems. I certainly did not. It took the visit from the Bee Inspector to inform me I had AFB. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:47:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Treating Bees? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > I do not see how a hive that never gets foulbrood due to preventative > use of terramycin, could then develop resistant bacteria. Pete, I feel that you are exhibiting Lamarkian reasoning : ) Bacteria don't become resistant from exposure to antibiotics. They become resistant by mutation, or by incorporating plasmids or viral genes. Constant exposure to TM, as with grease patties, may accelerate the development of a resistant bacterium, due to opening up an unexploited niche, or by avoiding competition with resistant bacteria. But it only decreases the interval for such resistance to occur. With regular "prophylactic" treatment, resistance will also surely occur eventually. The reason that we didn't notice such resistant AFB until grease patties were used was because the resistant bacteria pay a metabolic cost, and are quickly bred out when there is no active TM in the colony. Now Pete, I'm playing Devil's advocate here. Many of us used TM dust religiously spring and fall year after year, and it worked great. But I must agree with Trevor, that if you aren't careful, you can easily contaminate your whole operation with AFB when you use antibiotics by calendar, and don't remove infected combs immediately. I've done it myself, more than once! If I were a large commercial beek, I would likely use TM regularly. There are some currently applying both antibiotics simulataneously, which I cannot support. However, since a large part of my income is from the sale of nucs, and since I don't want to be buying back nucs that come down with AFB, I tend to use antibiotics minimally so as to flush out any infected colonies and burn the frames. My question is: am I now paying the price for this with a resurgence of EFB in my operation? That's why I'm having tests run to see if I indeed have EFB, or whether it is something else. In the meantime, I'm (obviously) breeding from colonies that don't exhibit signs of disease. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:59:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: EFB ( was Re: sub-lethal doses) In-Reply-To: <6687031295E94669B5A55D2253DAA57D@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob said: > I have never seen PMS in my Russian hives I had the pleasure of spending some time with Dr Tom Rinderer and Carl Webb in Georgia, and learned a great deal about the Russians. Impressed me enough that I'm going to set up a Russian enclave in my area. I had made the mistake previously of only testing Russian hybrids, rather than pure Russians. > PMS is a bit more scatered and the heads of larva are sticking from cells as > compared to EFB This description is of interest to me, Bob! In my experience, PMS looked like the simultaneous occurence of every bee disease known, and then some, all in the brood combs at the same time. It wasn't one specific symptom. If it were simply one symptom, I would suspect a virus alone (or in combination). When I see colonies under severe nutritional stress, I also see similar symptoms occur--generally to clear up when a pollen flow starts. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:02:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Must be some new research in the pipeline - should be interesting..... I've been told to expect interesting research on this subject to be released about the turn of the year.... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 08:59:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Treating Bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:47:37 -0700, randy oliver wrote: >> I do not see how a hive that never gets foulbrood due to preventative >> use of terramycin, could then develop resistant bacteria. > >Pete, I feel that you are exhibiting Lamarkian reasoning : ) > >Bacteria don't become resistant from exposure to antibiotics. They >become resistant by mutation, or by incorporating plasmids or viral >genes. I know, to say that foulbrood "becomes" resistant is a gross oversimplification. Anyway, the goal is to get away from drugs. I second that pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:43:34 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The findings cited by Jerry Hayes in ABJ will become something he will wish he had not mentioned in print, as by connecting "5 ppb Imidacloprid" and "bee mortality in developing pupae", he was potentially inciting riot. The reason why Jerry wrote what he did is that he wrote it well BEFORE last week's NAPPC meeting in DC and the presentations made there about work that is not yet published. I've requested overt permission to say more, and I am sorry to have to be so coy, but one doesn't talk about stuff that is "pre-publication" until you have specific permission from the researchers. Its simply good manners. Some journals can be very skittish about any mention of items submitted for publication. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:22:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses In-Reply-To: <200810281349.m9SCMKgD007882@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Fischer wrote: "... connecting '5 ppb Imidacloprid' and 'bee mortality in developing pupae', ... was potentially inciting riot...." Let the riot begin: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/business/content/business/epaper/2008/10/21 /a8c_beeresearch_1022.html Aaron Morris - thinking Bob might serve crow! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 07:13:18 -0700 Reply-To: gfcg7312003@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Checkerboarding?? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think Mike's questions and skepticism are valid, and 99% of the people I = talk to are just as reluctant to checkerboard.=A0 They tell me it just does= n't seem natural and seems to violate everything the bees would do on their= own.=A0 I've never encountered as much resistance, even indignant outrage,= to any other suggestion in beekeeping as this topic of broodnest manipulat= ion. =A0 Checkerboarding, or to a lesser extreme, slipping an empty frame into the b= rood nest, is simply a management technique.=A0 Most of what we do, in the = name of "management" is really a manipulation of the bees' best qualities t= o further enhance their production (which most of us do with other manageri= al options such as reversing brood boxes to thwart swarming). =A0 But for some reason, checkerboarding seems to rise our ire without much pro= blem.=A0 I find it somewhat ironic how checkerboarding takes on the heighte= ned nuance of a moral issue (manipulating the brood nest) when most of what= we do in the normal course of beekeeping is really for our benefit of push= ing the bees to greater levels of production than if we left them in the ho= llow of a tree. =A0 I checkerboard and the bees have responded favorably.=A0 Yeah, it's a littl= e more work but the benefits outweigh the labor.=A0=A0I think if you'd try = it, you might like it. =A0 Grant Jackson, MO=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:56:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: EFB ( was Re: sub-lethal doses) In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10810272159o2a589eb4r62dff315764e908a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PMS > looked like the simultaneous occurence of every bee disease known, and > then some, all in the brood combs at the same time. Over the years I have looked at a bunch of PMS comb.Most likely a 20 year anniversary of the first PMS comb this year. I have went through thousands of boxes with many frames with PMS displayed. After awhile a pattern emerges. At times there are several commercial beeks each looking and holding up frames for me to look at. from my experience: yes you can see signs of most disease in PMS comb at first look but at a closer look you see *my opinion* much PMS caused by brood nest effected by a loss of healthy bees which leads to poorly fed larva and unable at times to control brood nest temperature. If you look closely in the field many times you will spot the robber bees helping their selves . Moral is poor. Virus issues take hold when nurse bee and larva immune systems break down. Dr. Shiminuki told us 20 years ago that the hive at this stage is hard to save or simply in his opinion not worth the effort. Always varroa is found in many cells. I learned the most about PMS by field observations as the hive crashes . The least looking at the deadouts. A common PMS (maybe the first sign when you look at the PMS frame) sign in the Midwest when dealing with dark brood comb is the elongated older larva poking heads from the dark comb. Looks kind of like maybe the larva tried to crawl out or perhaps a nurse bee tried to pull and remove and then stopped. Usually these larvae are scattered over the brood area. Then you see larva with different colorations which can resemble EFB but the larva color is not uniform off colored (like usually in EFB) and not somewhat watery like EFB. The perforated capping which appear like AFB are caused many times by bees either checking the pupa or thinking of removing. Although these cells appear AFB ( and at times are!) usually the content do not rope. On severe PMS frames the frame can look like both AFB & EFB were present, chilled brood, stone brood,sac brood, chalkbrood and you will find mature varroa in large numbers in sealed brood when uncapped. Dr. Shiminuki and I discussed *if* the virus found in samples was the cause of PMS or the result following the crash from high varroa infestatation as we both agreed: The same virus was present in most those hives before the crash. A point which I always make and seems to go over the CCD teams heads when we talk. The CCD deadout samples had virus in samples as did the strong healthy hives 3 miles down the road which had the same virus in samples. Is virus the cause or simply the result. Humans are exposed to virus all the time but usually only have problems when our immune systems break down. I agree I tend to oversimplify things but in my opinion many researchers tend to over complicate many things. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:07:46 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron said: > Let the riot begin: Hold off on that rioting until you have a little more than a breathless "Palm Beach Post" article about a grad student's yet-to-be- approved thesis. Jamie Ellis went on record as being less-than happy with that article, and took exception to at least some of the quotes. To blow this out of proportion would be to put a grad student's PhD at risk, as excessive publicity would force the advisors to look more critically at the work of the grad student. So, let's wait for the actual work to be PUBLISHED, and then, after you read what it says, you can then decide if you want to riot. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:10:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Treating Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since mites did us the favor of really knocking out feral colonies in many parts of the U.S., one may be able to keep bees and equipment clean and free of Foul Brood without medication. However, when feral colonies were common - and we see a bit of resurgence amongst the feral colonies - if they weaken or die out from Foul Brood, your bees will likely get it via robbing. Personally, I found over the years that gifts of colonies from beekeepers were not a good deal. To the degree possible, we use only comb that our bees have drawn, and we treat packages when we get them. Jerry **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211625659x1200715650/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=82&bcd=emailf ooter) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:18:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses In-Reply-To: <001501c9390b$8e4c5340$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said: > I've requested overt permission to say more, and > I am sorry to have to be so coy, but one doesn't > talk about stuff that is "pre-publication" until > you have specific permission from the researchers. > Its simply good manners. Interesting but has little to say about what will soon be published concerning imidacloprid. Articles almost always are at least several months behind industry findings. 5 PPB ( parts per billion!) linked to bee mortality in developing pupae WILL soon soon to be released. Which is actually old news to those of us following the research but certainly not good news for those which believe imidacloprid does not harm bees at the ALWAYS * acknowledged* by Bayer 5 PPB levels. I am not always known for good manners in these matters ( and almost broke the story myself) but feel because the information has been approved for publication and being discussed in bee circles and has been out of the bag for quite a while should be considered for discussion if needed on BEE-L . Despite Jim's coy nature the above has NOW been published in ABJ. In my opinion Jerry Hayes , myself and Jim have heard/seen the results soon to rock the bee world (and possible a chemical giants world). I predicted several years ago that we would start proving problems from imidacloprid use to bees. The above is only the tip of the iceberg folks! Time to start digging up some of those old BEE-L posts? bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:28:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: EFB ( was Re: sub-lethal doses) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/10/2008 15:21:16 GMT Standard Time, busybeeacres@HUGHES.NET writes: The CCD deadout samples had virus in samples as did the strong healthy hives 3 miles down the road which had the same virus in samples. Which virus? Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:31:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: "5 PPB ( parts per billion!) linked to bee mortality in developing pupae WILL soon soon (sic) to be released." Boy, this is just the opposite result to what I've heard about a 'to be released study'. No significant effects, even at levels several fold higher than 5 ppb. Only time will tell. Jerry **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211625659x1200715650/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=82&bcd=emailf ooter) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 03:37:44 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Treating Bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Peter L Borst wrote: >I am slated to do a talk next month on the subject of keeping bees without chemicals, to the NY association. hi peter. there are a number of conferences/meeting upcoming that are based around keeping bees without chemicals. the 3 day nebraska state conference is coming up in november (registration deadline is november 14!), the organic conference in arizona in february, and apparantly this is also the theme for the eas conference in 2009 in new york state. i'm not privy to the speaker list for eas (nor have i seen an official announcement), but the other two events have speakers that are successfully keeping bees without chemicals. i would be remiss if i didn't suggest that if one is interested in keeping bees without chemicals, one should probably think about attending (or watching the videos of) one of these upcoming events. i'm sure your perspective is interesting and valid...but you clearly (from this post) don't advocate this thing that you are giving a talk about...one should at least look at the other side of the coin, imho. >This being said, I would recommend using terramycin... The presence of small amounts of terramycin in the brood nest poses no real risk to you or your bees. given the importance of the culture of microorganisms in the hive, i find this hard to believe. certainly terramycin kills bacteria (some of which is beneficial or even necessary). certainly killing those bacteria allow the yeast populations to rise sharply (as some bacteria produce substances that keep the yeasts in check. certainly some microorganisms produce essential nutrients for the bees, and create an environment hospitable for other microogranisms (some of which are beneficial/necessary and produce vital nutrients)......it's hard to imagine that tossing an antibiotic into the mix poses no real risks to this integrated system. >Taking aspirin to prevent headaches is certainly a dumb idea but taking aspirin to prevent heart disease is not. absolutely true for humans (where we treasure the life and identity of the individual...prolonging an existing life seems to be one of our highest ideals. when one is breeding bees (either commercially, or simply by letting one's bees and splits make their own queens), one must look at the long term...the next generation. treating to prevent disease or to mask symptoms of disease only makes selection for disease resistance impossible. human health care and sound breeding practices are not equivilent. wrt what randy said about requeening rather than letting hives die....i've thought a lot about this. the problem is (as i see it) sometimes hives start good and end weak...sometimes the other way around....a weak hive can turn around and leapfrog over others. you never really know what is going to happen. the other thing that occurs to me is that if the microorganism culture is as important as it seems to be, we probably can't always distinguish between good genetics and a good culture. requeening changes genetics, and it might influence some of what happens wrt microorganisms...but it certainly isn't the equivalent in this regard (the specific makeup of the microorganism culture) as making a split from a strong survivor hive. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:15:45 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Treating Bees? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry Bromenshenk writes:=20 However, when feral colonies were common - and we see a bit of resurgence= =A0=20 amongst the feral colonies - if they weaken or die out from Foul Brood, you= r=A0=20 bees will likely get it via robbing. =A0 Reply: All this means to me is that they are not true feral, but recently absconde= d colones from domestic bees kept by beekeepers themselves trying to get ba= ck to a healthy world. Unfortunately though, in my experience only 50% make= it first year, and then second year they are still fighting getting back i= n harmony with Nature so many times another 50% is lost.......but by third = year things seem to stabilize. =A0 So when you see and get ferals you have to note the size of the bees and se= e what stage they are at for dealing with as pertaings to mites and seconda= ry diseases.. But still free bees are free bees and also a lot more healthi= er then most/many LC hives I see and look at for others in todays world, sa= dly. You just keep them regressing down and feeding in the healthy new comb= s to make the change over farter for them,and here putting right on HSC rea= lly helps, or any drawn out SC combs you have. =A0 Dee=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:27:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Univ. of Florida grad student didn't conduct a neonicotinoid effects study under actual field exposure conditions, therefore the results are not relevant to what happens in the real world. In the real world we have situations like Kansas, a state with huge acreages of commercial (presumably neonicotinoid treated) sunflowers with pollinators galore on those sunflowers: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/sunc.jpg http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/sunb.jpg http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/suna.jpg http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/sund.jpg http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/sune.jpg And yet CCD is absent in Kansas: http://www.nebraska.tv/Global/story.asp?S=9181168&nav=menu605_2 "Kansas State University entomologist James Nechols said Kansas is among the states unaffected by the phenomenon, known as Colony Collapse Disorder. " Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 12:29:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alf Bashore Subject: Re: Checkerboarding?? In-Reply-To: <695432.85499.qm@web31607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I have checked into some of the links offered in a previous post to me. Checkerboarding to me seems that it will be easier for me to deal with my colonies. Especially since I deal and capture swarms from my own yard. If my out yards swarm, then I haven't yet seen the evidence of the act. Making splits have been my way of attempting to prevent swarms and expand my colonies. But this has always negatively affected my yields. After reading the article at: http://www.bwrangler.com/lche.htm I have realized that this is a very useful technique and not as disruptive as it sounds. Drawn comb is placed at the ENDS of the brood NOT in it's midst. and two supers above this brood has alternating frames of stored honey and empty comb or foundation. It is no more work than... No, it appears to be less work than going thru each frame looking for queen cells and/or reversing brood bodies. I have never gotten good yields on my colonies. Some is probably because of location. Some is probably because of weak colonies or new splits. Some is probably because of not monitoring the bloom cycles until this year to suddenly realize that I may have not been placing supers on early enough. But I want to try checkerboarding next year. Yes, along with relocating my home yard and one out yard, along with earlier supering, and while still expanding the number of colonies managed with Northern (USA) bred queens. Remember how long it took for Langstroth style equipment took to become standard. It was 70 or 80 years. And how long did it take for beekeepers to understand that bees mate in the flight and a few more decades to know that the queen mated with multiple drones? Though I am near retirement, but still a young beekeeper of 4 1/2 years, I think this technique deserves a a good study and a trial run by all beekeepers. It would be a worthy project for bee clubs to trial. Thanks for the help with finding the info on this intriguing topic. Alf Bashore > I think /the/ questions and skepticism are valid, and 99% of the people I talk to are just as reluctant to checkerboard. They tell me it just doesn't seem natural and seems to violate everything the bees would do on their own. > > /It is/ somewhat ironic how checkerboarding takes on the heightened nuance of a moral issue (manipulating the brood nest) when most of what we do in the normal course of beekeeping is really for our benefit of pushing the bees to greater levels of production than if we left them in the hollow of a tree. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 12:36:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Sub-lethal doses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mystery solved. Two papers are in the works on Imidacloprid, one mentioned by Bob, other by Jim F. and other sources. The two research trials found very different results. And Jim is correct - a thesis on a hot button topic will get some hard scrutiny. I'm sure that they're checking that every i is dotted, every t crossed. Glad I'm not the student. Hopefully the study was well enough funded that basic steps could be covered, such as confirming dose delivered by chemical analysis. All in all, should be interesting. Jerry **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211625659x1200715650/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=82&bcd=emailf ooter) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 12:00:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "R.M." Subject: Re: Treating Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been blessed to have a mentor that has been working bees for over 50 y= ears and has a commercial operation of over 2,000 hives.=A0 http://www.gaho= ney.com/=A0 He has been out to inspect my hives about four times this year,= the most recent visit about a week ago.=A0 There are no droppings, malform= ed wings, dead bees, EFB, AFB or any other visible signs of disease or pest= s besides the hive beetle I already mentioned.=A0 =0AI learned a lot at thi= s years Bee Institute: http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/bee_institute/Brochure-0= 8.pdf=A0 Passed the written and practical parts of the certified Beekeeper = exam where we did have to identify different bee diseases.=A0 It was pretty= cool being able to meet in person and ask questions of the authors of the = books I've read, such as Kim Flottum, Keith Delaplane and Ross Conrad.=A0 T= hese were=A0just=A0a few of the really knowledgeable people who came and ta= ught.=A0 I'm really looking forward to next years Institute.=0AObviously, t= his being my first year of beekeeping and having only two hives, I have a l= ot to learn, which is one of the reasons I'm on this group.=A0 I'm learning= a lot from reading your discussions.=A0 Thank you to all of you who take t= ime to answer my beginner questions.=0ARoni=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:51:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Treating Bees? Comments: To: Dean Stiglitz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 03:37:44 GMT, deknow@netzero.net wrote: >-- Peter L Borst wrote: >>I am slated to do a talk next month on the subject of keeping bees >without chemicals, to the NY association. > > i'm sure your perspective is interesting and valid...but you clearly (from this post) don't advocate this thing that you are giving a talk about... You clearly haven't read closely my articles in the American Bee Journal, nor have you followed my posts here. I consider chemical free beekeeping a goal, not a religion. I also consider the definition of what is and what isn't a chemical to be nearly useless. Furthermore, I consider this to be an ongoing discussion, not a matter of taking a stand one way or the other. I find that it is much better to keep an open mind than to exclude other points of view. Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 12:13:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: EFB ( was Re: sub-lethal doses) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris asks: > Which virus? CCD: Since Jerry B. is on the list today perhaps he could answer better but my understanding KBV was found in 100% of samples and IAPV (which we now realize and didn't at first could have been one of the three now found IAPV variations and all three could be simply a variation of KBV) was found in around 80 pus percent of samples tested. Only KBV and nosema ceranae was published as being found 100% of the samples. My early and kept quiet Florida involvement before CCD and looking back seems a different issue although some have said privately was CCD but in my opinion many things back then did not fit the pattern. The Florida research I was involved with several years earlier than the naming of CCD . Turned up three virus . However KBV was not one of the virus found then. The same virus was found in both the hives crashing and the healthy (or at least seemingly healthy ) hives. KBV was turned up in Florida by the USDA-ARS a couple years later. I do not believe the U.K. researchers would have missed KBV in the Florida earlier samples but it is what it is. What we were observing mostly back then was bee mortality in developing pupae. Because virus was detected in samples virus was suspected as the cause. Loss of adult populations was common. Temik was a prime suspect but time of year was suspect. Nosema ceranae no doubt was a factor back then but were not told was not in the U.S. yet and although I personally found high nosema spore counts we thought the nosema were nosema apis. I wish some of those samples were still around but they are not! We actually asked Beltsville if they were checking to see if nosema ceranae was in the U.S. They said yes they were checking as in parts of Europe hives crashing were being blamed on the new nosema strain. Not in U.S. yet. Then with CCD the new nosema was turned up. Only the new nosema now is traced back into the 80's. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 12:57:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Treating Bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 03:37:44 GMT, deknow@netzero.net wrote: > you never really know what is going to happen. requeening changes genetics, and it might influence some of what happens wrt microorganisms... but it certainly isn't the equivalent in this regard (the specific makeup of the microorganism culture) as making a split from a strong survivor hive. I sincerely believe that what we think we know about bee genetics is going to be overturned near term. The mechanisms which produce multiple subfamilies in bee colonies have only just been identified, let alone understood. It could be that everything we do and have done in the field of bee breeding is wrong. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:01:12 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: sub-lethal doses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those keeping score at home, Jerry B. was clearly mentioning the same results that I mentioned. Bob was speaking of the UFL PhD thesis reported in the Palm Beach Post, with the misquotes refuted by Jamie Ellis personally. The thesis may or may not be published outside UFL. > In my opinion Jerry Hayes, myself and Jim > have heard/seen the results soon to rock > the bee world (and possible a chemical giants world). I'm not going to be so bold as to judge data I've not yet seen in full, but I can say this - Prepare to NOT be "rocked". The results that Jerry and I mentioned have not yet been disclosed to the press or to rank-and-file beekeepers yet, so Jerry and I know of TWO studies, while Bob and other beekeepers know of only one. > The above is only the tip of the iceberg folks! Sorry, no iceberg here, the claimed "tip" is nothing more than a lonely ice cube. The point to note is that there are TWO new studies, to compare to and contrast with the existing data, and that one set of data does not match all the others. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:02:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: EFB ( was Re: sub-lethal doses) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Best that I know, Bob is correct about viruses seen. However, and we are working up articles on this - will show some of our results at the upcoming research luncheon of the CA Beekeepers - we see these viruses and more. Biggest difference, there are regional differences in which viruses are commonly seen and virus titers. We also now have evidence that we can see the effects of different management practices on viral loads. Some of these are not practical for all types of beekeeping or areas, but management can have a dramatic effect on virus diversity and viral titers. We're working as fast as we can - but we're nickel and diming this, so its as we get time. Jerry **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211625659x1200715650/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=82&bcd=emailf ooter) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:11:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: EFB ( was Re: sub-lethal doses) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/10/2008 17:57:24 GMT Standard Time, busybeeacres@HUGHES.NET writes: Only KBV and nosema ceranae was published as being found 100% of the samples No CPV then. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 15:06:12 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Treating Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I am slated to do a talk next month on the subject >> of keeping bees without chemicals > you clearly (from this post) don't advocate this thing > that you are giving a talk about... To refrain from advocating about what one is speaking or writing about is maintaining what is called an "impartial view". I find it to be a very valuable asset, so let me explain - it is a process by which much more than "It works for me" can be communicated to others. So, if one can't explain how something works, if one are forced to resort to "Try It - It Works For Me", one really has nothing much to say. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 18:03:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: EFB ( was Re: sub-lethal doses) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris asks: > No CPV then. We found CPV in samples sent to the U.K. but CPV was not reported to us in CCD samples. However from the start I gave all the researchers a big he haw about IAPV because the one thing all bee paralysis virus problems have in common is that the bees can not fly! From my observations not even walk from the hive! I have seen bee paralysis problems and its not pretty. Bees which can not hold on to frames. squirming like maggots on the bottom board or right out front of the hive. I realizing finding a new virus in bees is exciting but unless the bees crash from said paralysis virus proves nothing. A big deal was made in the Science article about IAPV and little about KBV (proven bee killer) and nosema ceranae ( proven bee killer from my personal experience and research) which was found in 100% of the CCD samples. I still get people coming up saying they heard CCD was caused by a virus brought in by imported bees . >From the start I thought Jerry B. & Jerry Hayes were too of the most logical and clear thinking of the CCD working group but I see now they have been pushed to the rear and the lead position given to the Georgia duo to dole out the cash to ------------.( I would sure like to fill in the blank but would not get posted) bob "Thinking Aaron has been giving Bob leeway so do not push the issue!" **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:06:06 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Rumor Control and Riot Control over "Sub-Lethal" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There has been quite a bit of confusion and a number of unfortunate statements made, so let me bring everyone up to speed on what both Jerry B. and I hinted at earlier. I now have permission from Galen Dively of U MD to summarize his "overall findings" as presented at last week's invitation-only NAPPC meeting, so long as I do not divulge any specific data sets or data summaries, such as charts or graphs. Dr. Dively asked me to stress that the findings presented at the NAAPC conference were only the first year of a multi-year study. They intend to repeat the entire process in 2009 to confirm their findings. Galen Dively, Mike Embry (of U-MD) and Jeff Pettis (of USDA) will be co-authors of the paper that will result. I'm going to keep it simple, so as to not introduce errors or misunderstanding due to my choice of words. The purpose of the study was to look at actual working colonies of bees exposed to imidacloprid. The study was funded in part by the Burt's Bees grant that NAPPC administered. They randomly assigned each of 30 nucs to 3 different treatment groups: a) Control Nucs fed pollen patties with zero imidacloprid b) Nucs fed 5 ppb imidacloprid in pollen patties c) Nucs fed 20 ppb imidacloprid in pollen patties The nucs were set up in an area with very little agricultural land to avoid any other pesticides. The bees consumed 30 grams per day of the pollen patties. Pollen traps were fitted to minimize the amount of natural pollen brought in. The pollen patties were fed starting in May and for 11 weeks (2 full brood cycles). They monitored a number of variables during the pollen-patty feeding and for months afterward: a) Amount of pollen brought in b) Number of foraging bees returning per unit time c) Amount of capped brood d) Overall colony strength There were no differences in colony performance between the treatments. The 20 ppb colonies and 5 ppb colonies are still doing fine and they are combining the nucs and will monitor them over the winter. None of the colonies died out. No foraging bees got lost and couldn't find their way home. Everything is entirely normal about them. The conclusion presented was that imidacloprid alone doesn't affect bee colonies, even at levels like 20 ppb, and even when bees are force-fed that level for extended periods like 11 weeks straight. Below is my analysis: ==================== Rather than any sort of "rock your world" results, these findings are in agreement with the prior work that some have dismissed as "Bayer-funded studies". The findings confirm and agree with the prior findings of Kemp/Rogers (2001-2004), Scott-Dupree/Spivak (2000), Elzen (2004), and Cutler/Scott-Dupree (2007). The findings are in stark contrast to what was reported in the "Palm Beach Post", but it seems that the reporter could not even quote Jamie Ellis correctly, so I think we should wait for something on genuine U-FL letterhead before we rush to the lifeboats in fear of the "tip of the iceberg" Bob thought he saw. So, to summarize, my understanding of the current scientific consensus on imidacloprid is as follows: The imidacloprid acute oral LD50 for bees is 192 ppb. At very high levels like 500 ppb, one can start to see "memory and learning" effects, but such high doses are also fatal. At 50 to 100 ppb, multiple studies have shown various negative impacts on honey bees. At 20 ppb and below, there coninues to be a lack of any detectable problems. No one has claimed that bees would be exposed to levels anywhere near 20 ppb in the field. Most people toss around "typical" numbers like "5 ppb" as a worst-case number. Long-term exposure does not imply a significantly greater risk than short-term exposure as neonicotinoids are rapidly metabolized by bees and do not bio-accumulate. In something between 4 and 24 hours there are no detectable residues left in the bees. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:20:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: EFB ( was Re: sub-lethal doses) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 29/10/2008 00:05:48 GMT Standard Time, busybeeacres@HUGHES.NET writes: No CPV then. We found CPV in samples sent to the U.K. but CPV was not reported to us in CCD samples. Why were they sent to the UK? Why was CPV found in those samples and not in others? Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:21:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: EFB ( was Re: sub-lethal doses) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why were they sent to the UK? Why was CPV found in those samples and not in > others? Well we felt we needed the best advice so we approached Dr. Brenda Ball & Dr. Norman Carrick for advice. CPV is a common found virus in bee samples. If you wanted advice on virus issues would you turn to the U.S.D.A which back then simply classed everything as PMS or go to the U.K. for virus expert opinion Chris? Be honest? I expect CPV was found in some of the CCD samples. Jerry would know better than me. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************