From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:13:10 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.6 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ALL_NATURAL, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF0E482B1 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3YXD017258 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0811A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 142084 Lines: 3189 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 05:33:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: epigenetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://tinyurl.com/63qfte -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 22:41:59 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Honey is Gold In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10810312000q1f29bbeaj11592ff2fb0b3a65@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So why then is Sioux Honey buying prices from beekeepers in USA slightly u= nder $1 now then with last letters sent out I am hearing about? Will this h= elp raise the pricing? Think packers in area prior to wording going around = were offering close to $1.50, but now price dropped......... =A0 D =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 08:48:22 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Honey is Gold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Juanse gave the link: > http://tinyurl.com/6dbbqq Looks pretty cheap to me - UK honey is selling at up to £2.30 per pound in bulk. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 05:36:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: sub lethal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/11/2008 03:29:46 GMT Standard Time, dickm@SNET.NET writes: In fact, where would one find clean pollen to set up a control group? Where indeed? I heard yesterday at a lecture at the National Honey Show that DDT is still showing up in hive products 40 years after its use was banned! Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 06:10:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Please Send Prince Charles some honey.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/11/2008 03:33:51 GMT Standard Time, bobbee@INTERLOG.COM writes: most people in the world are fed by farmers who save seed for next years crop. Try saving GMO seed and watch the corporate lawyers descend. A message was circulated some weeks ago, I think from the BBKA, that HRH's office was totally overwhelmed with all the donated honey and they had no easy way of passing it on to the needy and so people were asked to send no more. He has bees of his own anyway! I know far too little about GMOs to comment sensibly on whether or not they will save the World; however, there is much concern that patent laws are being applied to living organisms, or parts of them, that have been used as food or medicine by indigenous people for generations and this is reportedly being made illegal. Also, as Bob will know in Canada, Monsanto has pursued in the Courts farmers who have been the unwitting and unwilling recipients of GM pollen which contaminated their own cherished seed-lines. One problem with the 'Round up ready' gene is that after sowing seeds containing it, the farmer's next action is to treat the field with Round up, a broad leaved herbicide. This means that ONLY the desired crop will crow in that f ield for that year at least. If it is a crop that is of benefit to insect life, including honeybees, then there will be a local boom and bust as a desert is created when the brief flowering period is over. I understand from a lecture delivered yesterday by Dewey Caron at the National Honey Show that there is much concern in N. America at the decline in native pollinators and the 'round up ready' gene was cited as one of the causes. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 12:29:23 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Peter L Borst wrote: > Bt crops appear to be safe for the farmers and for consumers. ...Thus, Bt toxins are considered environmentally friendly by many farmers and may be a potential alternative to broad spectrum insecticides. yes,this is true. however, according to michael pollan (and others), bt was previously used mostly by 'organic' farmers and gardeners on an as needed basis (not for applying by the calendar). now that it has been incorporated into crops directly (where it is always present), resistance to bt is a certainty...one which even the manufacturers predict will give a very useful lifespan for these crops (20 or so years, if i remember correctly). never fear, they are already at work on the next toxin to be incorporated...which will likely have the same long term resistance issues...keeping those r&d folks in business as they must keep replacing the last product with one that resistance hasn't become an issue with yet. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:09:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Honey is Gold In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dee Think packers in area prior to wording going around were offering close to $1.50, but now price dropped......... Peter Edwards Looks pretty cheap to me - UK honey is selling at up to =A32.30 per pound i= n bulk. Thanks for the info. I am expecting above us$3 per kilo. How would the financial crisis affect the honey market? Would there be a drop in demand? --=20 Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 12:08:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] Reducing insecticide use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 ________________________________ From: Dick Marron [mailto:dickm@snet.net] Sent: Sat 2008.11.01 11:56 To: 'Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology' Subject: [BEE-L] Reducing insecticide use Deknow wrote: >>>> they must keep replacing the last product with one that resistance hasn't become an issue with yet.<<<<< This is true but implies that there is no end. I read that there is a = potato beetle that has become immune to 40 pesticides. Plants make their own pesticides. That's why propolis is antibiotic. It protected the trees = first. We are doing the plants' job but at a dizzying pace. I suspect we have a = big paintbrush and a smaller corner every cycle. BTW The USDA estimates that we are using 2.5 pounds of pesticide on = every acre of cropland. It's been going up, not down. And how do we measure = (say) the BT put out by corn and other GM plants. Dick Marron **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 06:27:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >> Environmental impacts appear to be positive during the first ten years of Bt crop use (1996-2005). One study concluded that insecticide use on cotton and corn during this period fell by 35.6 million kg of insecticide active ingredient It is my opinion that GMO's are not a black or white issue. Although the amount of pesticide saved is commendable, this paragraph does not say whether the same amount could have been saved by simply spraying Bt spores, or other management techniques. One problem is that Bt crops simply put us back onto a treadmill similar to the pesticide treadmill. It will likely only be a matter of time until Bt-resistant pests evolve, due to the massive plantings of Bt crops. Once that happens, natural Bt spores will no longer be of use to organic farmers. The problem is matter of scale. We tend to overdo everything. If we used only limited amounts of Bt crops, then a balance might be reached that would allow "natural" Bt to be still used effectively. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 15:58:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Mann library has scanned the first forty volumes of the American Bee Journal, and will be adding them to the Hive & the Honey bee site as time and resources allow!!!! While beekeepers supplied much money in the way of donations the library used some other funding sources to finish the balance & add on 20 more volumes than we originally started with. There are more volumes that we would like to digitize with your help! Please take some time to look over these old issues! I think there is still some very good info in them that is relevant to today! Mike Griggs President Finger Lakes Beekeepers Association email: mhg3@cornell.edu **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:02:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My point was not about whether or not GM crops are the solution to all our problems, which of course they are not. It was about the effort to reduce pesticide use and produce more food. Prince Charles is at the forefront of a "fear of the unknown" hysteria, which leads nowhere. He is suggesting that the continuation of genetic engineering will result in the "absolute destruction of everything". Come on, is this based on any observed events, rational thought, or just plain ignorance of the facts? > In his most outspoken intervention on the issue of GM food, the Prince said that multi-national companies were conducting an experiment with nature which had gone "seriously wrong". The Prince also expressed the fear that food would run out because of the damage being wreaked on the earth's soil by scientists' research. He accused firms of conducting a "gigantic experiment with nature and the whole of humanity which has gone seriously wrong. Why else are we facing all these challenges, climate change and everything?". Relying on "gigantic corporations" for food, he said, would result in "absolute disaster". > "That would be the absolute destruction of everything ... and the classic way of ensuring there is no food in the future," he said. "And if they think its somehow going to work because they are going to have one form of clever genetic engineering after another then again count me out, because that will be guaranteed to cause the biggest disaster environmentally of all time." In the interview the Prince, who has an organic farm on his Highgrove estate, held out the hope of the British agricultural system encouraging more and more family run co-operative farms. > Scientists claim the repeated attacks on their trials are stifling vital research to evaluate whether GM crops can reduce the cost and environmental impact of farming and whether they will grow better in harsh environments where droughts have devastated harvests. * MEANWHILE * > Norm Borlaug is still going strong, traveling the world to promote greater attention to, and investment in, rural infrastructure (particularly roads and bridges), agricultural research and education. Norm believes all these are essential if we are to have the next "Green Revolution," – the one which will lift the remaining one billion people out of the misery of malnutrition and end pandemic poverty. In his speeches he advocates biotechnology and the crucial role he sees for it in feeding and enhancing the nutrition of those still in tenuous food security situations, particularly in Africa. His dream is that a scientist will discover the gene in the rice plant that prevents it from developing rust disease, and transplant it into wheat and other crops devastated by this scourge. > Genetically modified crops are controversial, but, never one to back away from a confrontation, Borlaug argues that we must rely on science and research to answer the questions about whether GMO foods pose any environmental risks. Borlaug points out that with the earth's population increasing exponentially, all these new people can be fed in only one of two ways. Either we significantly increase yields on the land now in production, or we plow under the remaining rainforests and other habitats for wild animals in order to have more land to farm. Biotechnology, he stresses, will help preserve the ecosystem while also reducing hunger and malnutrition, by providing these increased yields. In that way, he once told a group of Iowa high school students, he may be saving more trees as a plant pathologist than he even would have as a forest ranger. Dr. Norman Borlaug was presented the Nobel Peace Prize in 1970 for his accomplishments in India and Pakistan and for his role as "Father of the Green Revolution." see: Dr. Norman E. Borlaug: 20th Century Lessons for the 21st Century World http://www.worldfoodprize.org/borlaug/borlaug-history.htm http://www.normanborlaug.org/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 23:16:35 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why are we not discussing the reduction of the world's population - the only real 'sustainable' solution? Increased food = increased population = increased food required - and so on. Foxes and rabbits? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:10:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros In-Reply-To: <0443B563-6D2C-4772-94D5-CE76857297F9@cornell.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Mike Where should we look for those old issues? "Please take some time to look over these old issues!" -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:46:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy Oliver: "One problem is that Bt crops simply put us back onto a treadmill similar to the pesticide treadmill." For an interesting perspective on how to get off the treadmill and work with the balancing act that nature is forever performing, I highly recommend getting your hands on and reading a copy of "One Straw Revolution" by Masanobu Fukuoka. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 05:00:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/11/2008 03:01:48 GMT Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: Why are we not discussing the reduction of the world's population - the only real 'sustainable' solution? Straying off topic somewhat: the economists tell us that the current money problems and recession might lead onto another great depression. The last one was ended only by a world war. Those that forget their history are condemned to repeat it (Geo Santayana). Chris (It's being so cheerful that keeps me going) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:18:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings, Bee Friends: In my neighborhood, on the outskirt of Shawnee (pp.30,000), about an hour east from Oklahoma City on I-40, there are pockets of abandoned homesteads, perhaps dating back to those days of Sooner Land Rush; the original wood-frame homes are shriveled, sunken into the ground, a grey half-collapsed lung that still houses and breathes the ghost smell of dirt and sweat, of those hard-working folks of days gone-by. Given another decade or so, the signs of these old homesteads will disappear, too, for all that stands now is choked by waist high weeds and a few stands of pears on their what used to be front lawns. People tell me how the old-timers used to have an orchard around their homesteads, of course, to help feed hungry mouths. They also tell me that at one point even the pear crops were wiped out by pathogens; homesteaders could not spray their way out as we could not drill our gas-guzzling way of life out. No matter. Abandoned pears are the only fruit-bearing trees still standing. One of my bee yards stands near one of these abandoned homesteads, a large acreage of unimproved pasture. Every spring, to my delight, my bees work those snow-white pear blossoms, one of the early producers of pollen and nectar, often coinciding with peaches, apples, apricots, and cherries; as a result, all these abandoned pears fruit angry fists of stone-hard, bell-shaped, native pears in the fall, transforming from hard green to copper bronze as they ripe—granted that their flowers had not been zapped by late April freeze, which is not uncommon in the plains since there is no mountain range that will stop the last Canadian spoiler. The size of an adult fist, these hardy fruits are not as palatable as those store-bought varieties of fruit; in fact, individually-wrapped Asian pears command the price of gold while these American pears are sold cheap by the pound. Although they are not the fanciest pears, they are doable, delicious, and juicy, and over the years, I learned to love them. Once refrigerated, nothing beats their 100% natural, mildly sweet, icy-cold juice. How could these pears have survived—without anyone taking care of them? I often wonder. I have never seen anyone weeding the underbrush or brush-hogging, much less spraying even garlic/red-pepper water. I also realize that these survival stocks will not be able to feed the hungry mouths globally since monocroping will inevitably usher in the pests. At the same time, I am painfully aware that there are now weeds and insects that have *survived* on their own, like these pears, DDT and now even Roundups—thanks to human science and ingenuity. Can I name one pesticide, the most recent, state-of-the-art insecticide, that will not create resistance in the long run? What should we do if insects become GMO-resistant? Do we know the long-term impacts of GMO on non-target species, such as bees? When will this treadmill slow down? Worse, can I name one aspect of our environment that our generation has improved ever since we have taken it over? Will it be even possible for us to hand it down at least the way we have inherited it? I am forced to be pessimistic against my positive nature. Obviously, to say it in a sweeping generalization, we need to strike a balance between nature and science, preferably more toward nature, so as not to disrupt what has taken over eons. Of course, like many of us on this list, I do not have any answers, either. Frankly I do not even know who owns these lands where the pears are waiting to be harvested as they often go unharvested as a worthless crop. Already, nearly half of the crops have fallen, littering the ground, and wasps, not my bees, of all kinds were going at them. Some have been bitten off by deer; others are simply rotting fast. By stealing some of these wonderful pears still on the limbs, these golden tears planted by the invisible hands of yesterday’s ghosts, I am brewing my first pear-wine this year to forget, momentarily, how our existence is caught between eating and not being able to eat, and nature and science, and a rock and a hard place, indeed. Cheers. Welcome aboard on our planet dirt. Yoon **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:15:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: The conviction that knowledge is good MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Our world is more complex, dynamic, and interdependent than at any time in recent history. Financial markets are in turmoil, geopolitical conflicts abound, and our pale blue dot is in serious peril. Yet these are also times for great optimism -- about what can be known and what can be accomplished, about our potential to discover and innovate. To navigate this new reality, to realize opportunity within this massive change, we need a new approach to governance and problem solving; we need a new way of looking at the world and a new set of values founded on the conviction that knowledge is good; and we need leaders who have the courage and wisdom to change their mind in the face of new evidence. > It is abundantly evident that science can refuel economic growth, address the energy and climate challenge, and help restore America's soft power around the world. President Bush dismissed this potential, turned the very act of defying science into an art, and in so doing diminished US competitiveness and disenfranchised the country's source of innovation. His administration not only disregarded evidence time and time again but also rejected and debased the very enterprise that offered that evidence. Renewing the promise of science starts first and foremost with restoring scientific integrity to government. > Sen. Obama understands that basic research is fundamental to how scientific advances are made. He sees the importance of expanding funding for "high-risk, high-return" work, strengthening tax policy to spur R&D, and encouraging the careers of young scientists who pursue innovative lines of thinking. He has offered a comprehensive plan to reinvigorate math and science education, and he recognizes the vital importance of re-architecting nationwide science literacy for these times. His positions on topics ranging from agriculture, alternative energy, and medical research to internet policy, patent law, and space are more robust and ultimately more in line with scientific consensus than those of Sen. McCain. FROM www.seedmagazine.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:54:55 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Checkerboarding?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Why would adding combs lead to a faster buildup? would "checkerboarding" cause the queen to lay more eggs? Yes. Checkerboarding the broodnest - 1 empty comb at a time every few days! - artificially enlarges the broodnest. To be safe temperature-wise, I only leave sealed brood on the outskirts of the broodnest when I want to have colonies catch up. If broodnest checkerboarding is not done, the queen will go ahead and lay around the outskirts of the broodnest but, if the bees feel that's too many eggs to handle, they will eat them out. Checkerboarding puts gives the bees the urgency to bridge gaps in the broodnest. The queen will lay up the empty comb and the bees' sense of a continuous nest will be satisfied. One more thought on broodnest continuity... This is a priority for bees but I have a couple of Pierco frames where one side was only reluctantly drawn out by the bees after considerable time and the queen never lays in that side. Even when the frame is inserted into the middle of the strongest colony. Must be some kind of scent... Otherwise, Pierco frames are very convenient. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:13:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Reducing Insecticide Use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit " I am brewing my first pear-wine this year ". Thanks, Yoon, for the vivid word-picture you paint. Can I suggest you try with your pears what I do with the apples from my lawn? I crush them for cider (5 gallons) (pears make perry) and that is set to ferment with its own yeast although sometimes I add a starter to get it going. The dry pulp then has large amounts of boiling water poured over it and it is allowed to steep for a day or 3. The flavoured water is then put into another keg and elderly honey is added at the rate of 20lb to 5 gallons (Imperial). It needs yeast as the boiling water will have killed any naturally there. I still have a little of last year's. It is tawny coloured, clear as a bell, dry as a bone, has a woody/appley flavour and is very warming on a cold evening. Half a pint is enough! Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:23:18 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hate to bring this up, given the eloquent comments on the delights of finding 'non-pesticide', original variety pears on an old homestead. However. there is one caveat. In the late 1890s until end of WWII, orchard's were often laced with heavy metal-based pesticides. Arsenic and copper-based products were applied, often with a heavy hand. Other inorganics such as sulfur compounds were applied. These inorganic chemicals are composed of basic crustal elements. They are not the long-chain carbon compounds found in modern (post-WWII) pesticides. The difference is that the carbon chains break up. The modern chemicals, even the most persistent ones like DDT, have relatively short (hrs, days, weeks, maybe years for the most persistent chemicals) life-spans. Inorganic chemicals, on the other hand break down to their basic elements - arsenic, copper, lead, etc. These metals are extremely persistent in soils. No surprise here, we extract them from the earth. We've looked at inorganics for more than 30 years. Old orchards almost always have high background levels of heavy metals. So, your beautiful pears may have been 'protected' by in soil inorganic pesticides, which may still be translocated up into the trees each year. The cycle of up from the soil, out to the leaves and fruit, drop in the fall, decompose, and go back into the soil is commonly known and seen. Sorry to bring in a downside, I can imagine the delight in finding these pears. Just don't assume that they are pesticide free. Hopefully, with time, the metals have leached away - they don't ever go away, but they may go deeper or get dispersed to the point that any specific area has very low levels. Jerry **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212416248x1200771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 17:36:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline We have been down this path often. Just a small reminder that in the days before pesticides started to destroy the planet, we lived to be about mid-forties, infant mortality was rampant, and famine was the norm around the world. One third or more of your budget was for food. Why is it that this whiny generation seems to think they live in the worst of times when we are actually in the best of all possible times in the history of the earth. The only famines are government induced, like the Sudan. We actually have the science, desire and affluence to do something about our problems. Now, for the Luddites, we do not need to spray anything. We just have to have no problem with people dieing of starvation as we keep insisting on blemish free fruit and vegetables. Same with bees. All you commercial operators, just stop treating and they will all applaud you as you go broke. Just a small aside. when I was a kid and lived in Key West, Fl, the DDT truck would come around weekly and spray a nice think fog and we kids loved to run through it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 00:22:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >in fact, individually-wrapped Asian pears command the price of gold while these American pears are sold cheap by the pound. Last year, I planted an Asian pear with 5 different varieties grafted on one tree for cross-pollination. It bloomed this year and produced fruit on 3 of the grafts. I was quite happy to see a dozen bees pollinating the flowers since one of my books pears list as a lesser nectar source compared to cherries or apples. The fruit was smaller than the store type but more flavorful. The branches were loaded with nice fruit. I think I'll need to thin out next year... >>I also realize that these survival stocks will not be able to feed the hungry mouths globally since monocroping will inevitably usher in the pests. On the other hand, there are millions of 'useless' back and front yards in America (and elsewhere in the world). If turned into mini orchards and gardens, they could produce food to feed millions. Like they once did. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 01:39:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell: “We actually have the science, desire and affluence to do something about our problems.” I agree. Do you suppose that we could use those assets to figure out how to feed everyone without burning the ecological candle at both ends? I'm concerned that if we take the position that everything is fine, and don’t agressively question where our practices might be taking us to in the future, we are going to be, and in fact have been, traveling blind. Human nature being what it is, science and technology are just as likely to be used to solve our most immediate need for material gratification as they are to be used for securing a healthy environment for the future. Perhaps it’s this short sighted aspect of our nature that needs closer examination, especially in relation to how, in our hell bent pursuit of wealth and comfort, we may tend to overlook certain inconvenient realities. I almost said truths. "Luddites" are of value in that they annoyingly force us to put the brakes on and examine more closely whether what we are doing really makes sense in a meaningfully broad context. I have no doubt that we humans are capable of racing head long to a certain doom - victims of our own insatiability. I also know that science and technology along with common sense and healthy skepticism will be indispensable to our continued success as a species, but we can’t be objective about the usefulness of our inventions without being able to examine our motives for using them with ruthless detachment. Maybe the reason we spend so little of our income on food is because we aren’t paying the full cost of that food. Maybe the reason we pay so little attention to the real cost of our food is because paying the full cost would mean having to give up something else. Do you see how objectivity gets lost in that shuffle? You don’t have to imagine how, without stiff resistance from the “Luddites” of the world, all objectivity on the part of chemical companies, when it comes to evaluating anything that might adversely impact revenue, would tend to suffer a similar fate? Steve Noble Thinking anything Bill Treusdell says will here-to-for be taken in consideration of the fact that, as a kid, he played in clouds of DDT. ;>) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:32:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Yoon and all: > Worse, can I > name one aspect of our environment that our generation has improved ever > since we have taken it over? Will it be even possible for us to hand it > down at least the way we have inherited it? I am forced to be pessimistic > against my positive nature. I understand that the condition of the ozone layer is much improved. The fact that people (countries actually) could come together and do this is encouraging. Our freon emissions must have been many orders of magnitude less than CO2. but still wanted to give you "one aspect" so you could let your positive nature out. Stan **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:14:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use In-Reply-To: <20081102.192259.14931.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On the other hand, there are millions of 'useless' back and front yards in > America (and elsewhere in the world). If turned into mini orchards and > gardens, they could produce food to feed millions. Like they once did. It was estimated, several years back, that the earth's population could go as high as 36 billion and still be fed. We do waste a lot of land. I wonder if Aaron left the system on and everything is getting through. First time I have seen blatantly political screeds on the BeeL.. Plus, I would have dumped my post. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:54:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use Comments: To: Steve Noble Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ahoy, Chris and Jerry: I appreciate astute insights from both of you. Thank you. The idea of making perry sounds tempting although not having a blender, I just don’t know how to crush the pears; maybe I will have to peel/slice them and then grind the meat in a mixer to pulverize. My “pear-wine” was done crudely by following my home-made, dirt-cheap, wine-brewing recipe, using cans of grape concentrates rather than real grapes. I peel and slice the pears, using a hand-cranked peeler/slicer, and then cover 1/3 of a bucket with these slices. Next pour hot water into a bucket, which I mix with ten to twenty pounds of sugar (the more the sugar, the more potent the venom later). Finally I put sticks of yeast into the mix when the water temperature reaches about room temperature to help accelerate the brewing process. Even as I type this, the pregnant bucket sits and naps there at the corner of our kitchen, brooding the possible onslaught of this incoming winter. By winter solstice, I hope to sample the antidote. I have never thought of adding low-grade/old honey, though. What a terrific idea, indeed. Jerry, I agree with your astute insight regarding the residual, long-lasting impact of inorganic compounds in the soil especially around the abandoned orchards. Granted your observation still holds, why is it that all the other fruit-bearing trees, especially peaches and apples, have failed when abandoned? Do pears tolerate/process these toxins better systematically by having a unique genetic and other makeup than the others? I wonder. These pears are old trees, rugged and gnarled octogenarians in human terms. Yet they put forth fruits, tooth and nail (maybe tooth and gum), each year. Chris, thanks for your eloquence (and humor; people used to chew "tar" for lacking chewing gums in olden days!) When I open my mouth for “natural” beekeeping, whatever that means, I typically get lots of flacks from German machine guns and English spit-fighters, but the overall tenor of this wonderful list has changed over the years, though, giving me a measure of hope that change is possible although it does take time, my good brethren Peter being the finest example. Thank you Peter (I know you did not even say a word for that). Yoon **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:08:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Weller Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve -- I can't speak for Bill T., but "clouds of DDT" were years in the future when I was a kid. Rather, we floated off to sleep then on clouds of paregoric (tincture of opium) when we were fussy from colic or teething, or just ornery-ness. Still available across the counter when my own kids came along; used it on them too. We know too much nowadays. Hard for me not to think we're often shying at shadows. Walter Weller > **************************************************** **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 02:21:32 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Please Send Prince Charles some honey.... In-Reply-To: <697164.55723.qm@web51606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Darrell said: > most people in the world are fed by farmers > who save seed for next years crop. I think it is more accurate to say that most of these farmers are feeding their own families in most years, selling a small surplus in extraordinary years, and thereby feeding others, and in poor years, they are living on US and EU food aid or dying. Saving seeds is part of the whole subsistence farming romantic cachet, and the problem with seed saving is that one must be able to at LEAST feed one's own family to avoid eating their seeds. What happens to a seed saver who eats his seed? What happens after one too many droughts or crop failures, where there is no seed to save? The newer drought-resistant genetics are likely going to allow more land to be used, land that otherwise would have been useless. This means more farmers, be they subsistence or "truck" farmers. Further, GMOs increase yields, turning subsistence farming into farming that creates a surplus to support more than the farmer and his family. Further still, reduces crop failures, which is when even the farmers starve unless the 1st world sends C-5A Galaxy loads of food aid. > Try saving GMO seed and watch the corporate lawyers descend. I don't see any reason to dodge the point about the technological advantages with speculative comments about intellectual property. But the neat thing about this type of technology is the low cost of entry, and the low cost to reverse-engineer things. If the corporations get greedy, they will find themselves undercut by local in-country knock-offs, legislated into legality by individual 3rd-world nations. (Check out early US history - we were a country of intellectual property tieves and gangsters of the first order in the early days of the USofA - no one ever paid any royalties, and everything was copied and "knocked off" by US copiers of imported goods.) > Having lived in Africa and travelled in all continents > except South America has shown me... You should have bought first class tickets, and ridden with me, the robber barons, the local strong-man dictator's henchmen, and the leaders of the usual revolution. They are all crooks, and each one is constantly trying to take advantage of all the others. Funny how you forget that the inventor of the seed is not the only person that might be greedy and unethical. In my experience, the corporate boys were the ones stupid and naive enough to bring fountain pens to a knife fight. (See Warren Zevon's "Lawyers, Guns, and Money") > Just noticed that the reply to box on > your post is set to yourself not to Bee-L. Hmmmm!! Yes, those of us who are Bee-L members from the days before the internet was opened up to the general public have a slightly different set-up. None of us did this ourselves, it is an artifact of having been here back before much of any else even knew what an "internet" was. :) Dee said: > ...helping rid our agriculture of the poisons > that are hurting human health worldwide. An accusation is not a fact. > I cannot see the technologies you write about here > continuing to feed a world if it is killing the honeybees, That's a very big "if"! No one with any credibility has ever even accused any GMO crop of containing anything that might hurt a bee. In fact, bees and beekeepers might be the vector that causes most of the GMO outcrossing that so many people fear. > hurting other agriculture animals More pure speculation. > organicbeekeepers list for reading and sending > of clean honey to Prince Charles. Jerry B? Could you please comment on the levels of various pesticides and pollutants that are certain to be found in samples of wax, honey, and pollen sent in by self-proclaimed "organic" beekeepers, given the incredible ability of bees to act as "pollution detectors" for the entire area where they forage? I know Jerry's standard after-dinner talk on this subject, so, for anyone anywhere in the lower 48, my retort to Dee is: "Clean Honey" my foot! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 10:07:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I wonder if Aaron left the system on and everything is getting through. Thanks for bringing this up Bill. Posts lately HAVE strayed far from BEE-L charter. Believe it or not, I have been weeding out some submissions. It's a fine line between keeping a tight rein and squelching the conversation altogether. Too loose and people observe (as you did) how far astray discussion has gone, too tight and people cry censorship (as some have recently). Crying censorship is almost an assured way to have a post die in my inbox. Regardless, please folks, try to keep on topic and not stray too far into left field. Aaron Morris - appreciating pear wine recipes but wishing to stay on topic. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 11:56:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Please Send Prince Charles some honey.... In-Reply-To: <004901c93d84$ccab0ff0$0501000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I know Jerry's standard after-dinner talk on this subject, so, for anyone > anywhere in the lower 48, my retort to Dee is: > > "Clean Honey" my foot! Could you back up the above statement with some facts? Honey was placed on a three year watch in the U.S. and was given a clean bill of health? Jars were picked up over and over during the period and tests ran. First a rant about our national beekeeping organizations on BEE-L which I as a member let ride but slamming the good name of U.S. honey really pisses me off! Let me get this right. U.S. honey is not clean but contaminated? Dee has been able to ship her honey into places many others have not been able to. Still the FDA gave all U.S. honey a clean bill of health. Please explain "clean honey my foot!" please. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:47:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >we need to strike a balance between nature and science Yoon, I tossed and turned last night about your statement above, and I understand that it isn't exactly what you meant. However, I think that we should clarify. There isn't a choice between science and nature, since science is merely a way of trying to understand nature. The most sincere and knowledgeable environmentalists that I know are scientists. I think that what you meant was the choices between nature and technology or policy. For example, the neonics are likely far more ecofriendly insecticides than arsenic, chlorinated hydrocarbons, and organophosphates. The science was good. The problem is in application--if they were only registered for a few crops, they could be of great benefit, and cause few problems. They would also likely remain effective for generations, since they could be relabeled for different crops (and the associated pests) from time to time. Unfortunately, due to policy, the patent expires in 15 years, so the company needs to sell as much as possible quickly to recoup their investment. Thus, the insecticide gets registered for far more crops than is ecolologically justifiable, and the environment gets flooded with it. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:12:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/11/2008 15:01:25 GMT Standard Time, ybshoney@ITLNET.NET writes: I have never thought of adding low-grade/old honey, though. What a terrific idea, indeed. Try a mallet for the pears. A trick I have used for extracting honey from cappings is to put them in a strainer bag and spin them in my Mother's spin drier. That might work for pear juice. I use honey for home - brew beer as well. I use a can of the cheapest beer kit (hopped malt extract) and substitute old honey or already-drained cappings at a rate of about 4lb of honey instead of a kg of sugar as the recipe usually suggests. I also chuck in a palmful of fennel seeds and a double handful of hops (I found some in a hedgerow last week and they are just about dry now). In the run up to Christmas I might add some mulling spice. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 15:31:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Sugar Free Honey Comments: To: beeman52@sbcglobal.net, z_browning@msn.com Comments: cc: Bruce_Boynton@nhb.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was in WalMart with one of our MT beekeepers, who was showing a visitor his honey on the shelf. Farther down the shelf, I saw bottles of Sugar Free HONEY. Somehow, that seemed a bit difficult to do - let's face it, honey is mostly sugar. Nothing on the label, other than the word HONEY in large print on the label, indicated that anything in the bottle had anything to do with honey. So, where is the honey industry at on this? How can anyone call a non-honey product, HONEY? This wasn't listed as Imitation Honey, like you see on Imitation Maple syrup. Nor was it using a substitute term like margarine for butter, since the dairy industry won't let you call imitation butter, BUTTER. Of course, Dairy Queen still gets away with using the word dairy, much to the frustration of my dairyman father, who would never go to a Dairy Queen while he was alive. Now, I remember many years ago when a large grocery chain suddenly decided to quit selling locally produced milk. My father and members of the MT Dairy Association came up with a novel strategy. They and their wives, family members, all went to this chain's stores, loaded up carts with groceries, pushed them up to the checkout clerk, then asked where their milk was. Of course, the clerk had to say - we don't carry it. At which time the dairy person would say - if you won't buy my milk, I'm not buying your groceries - and they'd leave, with the full carts still sitting in the checkout stations. Amazingly, in a few days, the grocery had a change of mind - and it was a national chain. Maybe beekeepers need to do the same to WalMart and anyone else selling Sugar Less Honey? :) Jerry **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212416248x1200771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:58:03 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Sugar Free Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry wrote: > I was in WalMart with one of our MT beekeepers, who was showing a visitor > his honey on the shelf. Farther down the shelf, I saw bottles of Sugar > Free > HONEY. It amazes me that you do not have legislation to cope with this blatant deception - it is not permitted over here and would very quickly result in prosecution. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:25:57 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Sugar Free Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Peter > ... it is not permitted over here and would very quickly result > in prosecution. I wouldn't be too sure about that .... http://www.twenga.co.uk/offer/30193/5194645281923700049.html http://www.virilityhealth.com/honey-aroma-250gm.php http://www.nectarease.co.uk/Nectar_Ease_Plus_Capsules_-_The_SUGAR-FREE_Option.htm Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:32:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Rumor Control and Riot Control over "Sub-Lethal" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim and all: > http://bee-quick.com/reprints/imd/Schmuck_2004.pdf It certainly seems from this paper that Suchail et al's figures are out of line with other results. However, to summarize the survey of investigators that Schmuck lists, the NOLEC (no observed lethal effects concentrations) from different investigations using lab feeding are (each number=one paper): 4 ppb, 24 ppb, 48 ppb, 10 ppb, 10 ppb, 0.1 ppb from chronic dietary toxicity studies. >From tunnel and field feeding studies (chronic): 100 ppb, 20 ppb, and >20 ppb. So, while 20 ppb (seems roughly a middle figure) is well below the 140 ppb for acute LD (or 192 if we take your average) it shows that the chronic toxicity is much lower (one order of magnitude) than the acute. But more importantly, as regards the "precautionary" principle, it is very close to what the amounts found in pollen and nectar from seed treated plants are (usually in the 3 to 10 ppb range). I can give references if you like, but it is also referenced in the "risk of systemics" paper. Also, these numbers that Schmuck gives are NOLEC (no observed LETHAL effect conc.). The numbers for NOEC (no observed effect conc.) are lower. Stan **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 04:58:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Nosema ceranae in Australia Comments: To: honey_australia@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.apitrack.com/pdf/Australia_Nosema_Ceranae_Giersch_Berg_Galea_Hornitzky_10_2008.pdf Nosema ceranae infects honey bees (Apis mellifera) and contaminates honey in Australia -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 05:20:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: AUSTRALIAN honeybee businesses continue to struggle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline *AUSTRALIAN honeybee businesses continue to struggle despite an improvement in income over the past six years, according to a new survey released today. * http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/article/2008/10/29/20781_business-news.html -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 05:22:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Australia: Birdwatchers join the hunt for Asian honey bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://nqr.farmonline.com.au/news/state/agribusiness-and-general/general/birdwatchers-join-the-hunt-for-asian-honey-bees/1345480.aspx -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 05:25:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: UK: Plea for more research cash as two billion bees die from rampant disease MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3333567/Plea-for-more-research-cash-as-two-billion-bees-die-from-rampant-disease.html The number of honeybees wiped out by virulent diseases which threaten their ultimate survival as a species reached almost two billion in the last year, experts have warned. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 05:39:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: NZ: Bee mite killer `no' welcomed (coumaphos) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/waikatotimes/4741813a6415.html -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 05:41:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Plight of bee causes buzz in Brussels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/876218?UserKey= THE European Commission has been told to come forward with comprehensive plans to prevent any further decline in bee numbers across Europe. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:22:33 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Sugar Free Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is it "Honeytree" playing fast and loose with red print on a lighter red background, and hence, the FFDC again? http://bee-quick.com/wall/w_honeytree.html Why should we care about such things? Funny you should ask: http://bee-quick.com/wall/why_care.html If it is not Honeytree again, please e-mail me a photo of the package, and another close-up of the ingredients list so they can be added to the "Wall Of Shame". We must make these people famous, as they cannot stand the light and fresh air of publicity. Their business is fraud. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 08:51:49 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Sugar Free Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin gave links: > http://www.twenga.co.uk/offer/30193/5194645281923700049.html > http://www.virilityhealth.com/honey-aroma-250gm.php > http://www.nectarease.co.uk/Nectar_Ease_Plus_Capsules_-_The_SUGAR-FREE_Option.htm Clearly these have not come to the attention of Trading Standards yet - but we can soon remedy that! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 09:18:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Nosema ceranae in Australia In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10811031958x3cde748cxff74b4ce85a89bf2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I think the main issue about N. ceranae is the way the worlds researchers missed N. ceranae. N. ceranae is not *new* and has a huge foothold around the world. Quote the last sentence of the Australian study (pg.14) "The extent of infected samples detected in multiple states indicates that N. ceranae has been in Australia for some time and that any attempts at eradication would be unlikely to be successful" I continue to fight N. ceranae in my two test yards. There clearly is a threshold level at which treatment of the colony is a waste of time and money. Also keeping dinks around with heavy N. ceranae problems hurts the entire apiary. I have drenched some high spore count hives up to four times (as per Dr. Mussen) and still seen the colony crash. One of the worse scenarios is when the N. ceranae infested bees jump ship and drift to other colonies at this time of year. Which infest again those colonies making their winter survival suspect. As the study says I also believe N. ceranae played a much larger role in CCD than many researchers want to admit. I have always tried to simplify beekeeping for those without microscopes or ways to test their hives. The easiest way to detect N. ceranae in your hives (other than testing) is to give each hive a certain amount of syrup. Strong hives which refuse to take feed almost always are heavily infested. However at this point some are over what I now *name* as NOSEMA CERANAE THRESHOLD . I am convinced such a threshold exists. Future research: Next year I will look at simply depopulating hives over Nosema ceranae threshold and see what effect it has on the apiary. Also ALL dead outs will get an acetic acid treatment before reuse and not just ones I think might benefit. Actually the Australian study was simply a study to detect N. ceranae spores with a PCR. Really tells nothing about levels in apiaries or even suggests a method for control of what seems to me to be an upcoming problem. I have discussed N. ceranae and ways to control with Australian beeks. *If* One ignores the several hives in the apiary with bees so sick they will not take feed then the problem will spread to other hives. I think there are some hives which display N. ceranae tolerance but when infested by robbing and drifting workers with high spore counts many of those crash also in time. Sincerely, Bob Harrison **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:11:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Reducing insecticide use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 In a message dated 02/11/2008 15:22:46 GMT Standard Time, =20 ybshoney@ITLNET.NET writes: <> They're pretty hardy. I have an allotment on a site which dates back to= =20 1840. There are seventy-odd old aple trees, plus pears and plums. Many of=20 them are very old, some are rare varieties. One is almost buried in recent=20= tree=20 growth. They've survived, with little or no care, for many decades, and=20 they're still flourishing. They really don't need mollycoddling. =20 Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:32:55 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Cause of CCD? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I think it was Juanse Barros who alerted the list to the paper: "How natural infection by Nosema ceranae causes honeybee colony collapse disorder". Mariano Higes et al., Environmental Microbiology 2008: 11 pp. In short, in Spain, after a long period without obvious symptoms, N. ceranae caused the sudden collapse of colonies, . Exhaustive testing of colonies for viruses showed they were few, and IAPV was not associated with the observed colony collapse. No adult or brood diseases were diagnosed, and no other parasites were detected. No colonies were exposed to pesticides. Further, N. ceranae spread to nearby colonies. There is no mention as to whether collapsed colonies were ignored by robber bees and other insects. Apart from this, do not the symptoms of colony collapse match those seen in the U.S? The good news is that N. ceranae in nucleus hives can be 100% controlled by fumagillin. However, the nuclei became infected again after 6 months. Does not this paper identify N. ceranae as the cause of CCD, and provide the control? Regards, Barry Donovan, New Zealand. Visit our website at http://www.crop.cri.nz ______________________________________________________ CAUTION: The information contained in this email is privileged and confidential. If you read this message and you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of all or part of the contents is prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. Any opinions or views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not represent those of their employer. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 01:26:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: 4,5 & 6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All 3 are ccd, N yard A revist to #3, no chewed comb found, not ccd Probably less mites in S yard Mites are the cause of the resurgence, 75%? MORE formic next yr!! All 6 probably 2 yr Q with lifelong exposure to ccd But I don't know whether to blame the Q for the dead brood So these 3: 2 from 5 nuc group 2 were russian cross 3-400 cells dead, 2-300 cells chewed (#1 & #2 had chewed cells too) Differences #4 Less brood, 3x normal on BB, small pile off end of BB #5 Younger brood, some dead on porch #6 Older brood, emergents, Cleanest BB Next to #1 Brood mortality pattern 5-8% emergents 60-70% coloured 20-30% just sealed or +1d, few cucoons 5% 3.5-4d larv, no wiggle 1-2% yuk, various fungi, bacterial very few translucent, purple eye (eaten?) not all in same hive!! In chewed comb the remains seem to be 80% coloured Eating these corpses is likely most unhealthy To bad they don't remove them intact I do know that they dislike this particular job, probably the smell? In any case, a potent vector for reinfection Maybe the trigger for exodus/abscond I could use a little help Vectors? Disinfection? Heat? Ozone? UV? Lysol? Bleach? dave **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 07:30:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Cause of CCD? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Barry Donovan wrote: >Does not this paper identify N. ceranae as the cause of CCD, and provide the control? Nosema can certainly cause colony collapse in bees, and it seems to be at the root of widespread collapse in Spain. It may also be the main cause of collapse in the US but it has not been proven to be the sole cause. Bees in the US have been found to be carrying a wide variety of pathogens. The media have made a lot of hay out of this, blaming modern agricultural, exploitative beekeeping practices, etc. Others point to genetic weakness as the underlying cause; poor health being a symptom. In NY State, nosema has been found to be widespread and at high levels. I think most progressive beekeepers have been treating for it for over a year now. Controlling nosema will no doubt go a long way to getting a handle on honey bee health. However, as Charlie Mraz warned forty years ago, modern agriculture has emphasized production over health; breeding for vigor has always been peripheral to performance. Beekeeping is not different from the rest of farming and he advocated practices that are worth reconsidering. There are many things we can do to get better bees; there is no one thing that is the underlying problem. I think genetic diversity is a good place to focus. Also, we must make an effort to keep bees away from pesticides and continue to raise awareness on the vulnerability of pollinators to pesticides and other environmental hazards. The public has our attention (for now) and doesn't want to contemplate a world without bees and all that would imply. But we can never become complacent and thing "problem solved, time to get back to what I was doing." -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 07:32:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: healthier colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Antibiotic substances are produced by a variety of organisms throughout nature. As I described in my ABJ article ("The Red Queen's Army") the battle between organisms is ongoing and endless, hence we should not even expect a single antibiotic or pesticide to work "forever". The development of resistance by organisms to *each other* is not new, had been going on for a couple of billion years, is called evolution. So, the problem of resistance is a double edged sword. The introduction of novel antibiotics can lead to bacterial and viral resistance to those substances. However, the opposite is not necessarily true: organisms may fail to produce needed defenses on their own and simply fail and die out. The survival of no species is assured; what is assured is that microscopic pathogens get better at killing more quickly than their hosts. Enhancement of host defenses may be the path to be on in the future. Apparently bee venom is very effective against a wide variety of microbes, and has been used against Lyme Disease, MS, and fibromyalgia. Maybe we could breed bees with more and stronger venom, which could lead to healthier colonies. Perhaps their is a direct link between colony defensiveness and colony health? * * * Animal peptide antibiotics are widespread in nature, occurring in mammals, amphibians and insects. These peptides are major constituents of the innate immune system for non-specific defence of the host against microbial parasites. They can be rapidly activated after injury or invasion of the host by microbial agents, combating parasitic growth immediately after infection. Antimicrobial peptides thus provide an important defence mechanism in lower animals and the first line of host defence during the time required for mobilization of specific immunity in vertebrates. Amphipathic cationic peptides are a major group of antimicrobial peptides and can be divided into four classes according to their structure. Genes for peptides belonging to the a-helix class have been identified in, for example, moths and mammals (cecropins), frogs (magainin) and honey bees (melittin). -- Antimicrobial peptides melittin and cecropin inhibit replication of human immunodeficiency virus 1 by suppressing viral gene expression -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 15:19:06 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: healthier colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Peter L Borst wrote: >...what is assured is that microscopic pathogens get better at killing more quickly than their hosts. i can recommend universally "the queen of trees" from the pbs nature series...everyone should watch this, and probably buy it. one of the nice things about this video is that it demonstrates (in organisms that are big enough to see...with the aid of fantastic videography) the parasite/host relationship, and the symbiotic relationship between the fig tree and various wasp species. if a parasite gets 'too good at stealing from it's host', it kills the host, and will threaten it's own survival. too many parasitic wasps taking advantage of the fig wasp in a single fig fruit will make for a bumper crop of parasitic wasps...but if they leave too few male fig wasps intact, they will die inside the fruit without reproducing....selecting against traits that lead the parasitic wasp too infest a single fruit too heavily. this same dynamic plays out with microbes....they strike a balance between stealing from their host and not killing the host. this is in contrast with what was stated above, that 'pathogens get better at killing more quickly than their hosts'. parasites can kill their hosts...but if they get too good at it, then there are no hosts left...and no parasites. it's also worth pointing out that many microbes are beneficial and/or necessary....even parasites. e. coli is both a pathogen in humans, and also a necessary symbiont. ...and remember, that even microbial parasites have microbial parasites that keep them in check. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:22:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Cause of CCD? Comments: cc: DonovanB@CROP.CRL.NZ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Barry & All, Barry asks: Does not this paper identify N. ceranae as the cause of CCD, and provide the control? The problem as I see it Barry comes from those researching CCD. When many of us point to nosema ceranae as perhaps the main problem behind CCD we are met with a described list of symptoms( which in reality most commercial beekeepers have never seen or see few hives with those *exact* symptoms.) Yet many have seen the dead hives with symptoms all over the spectrum. Finally researchers admit that what they call CCD symptoms do vary. What they label CCD on the East coast can (and usually does) have symptoms which do not match those on the west coast. At first commercial beeks accepted their diagnosis but we all talk (usually by cell phones) and we found that what the CCD team was calling CCD in the north east did not match what they were calling CCD in Florida which did not match what they were calling CCD in California. Very confusing! In conference calls commercial beeks came to the only conclusion they could based on the expert beeks opinions among them. Those conclusions were: 1. Nosema ceranae is a real threat and needs and all out plan to control. To be effective all beeks coming in contact with each other need to control nosema C. 1a. testing will be done by a few to find better ways to control and also cheaper ways. Test new methods to control Nosema C. Thanks for Randy O. for his research and for a couple unnamed others. The above has been very effective and completed without help from the USDA-ARS & the CCD team. 2. switch from HFCS to sucrose. The problems with HFCS were exposed by Dr. Gregory of the Weslaco Bee Lab (article ABJ April 2007 pg.323) at both national conventions. I received an email last month from the USDA-ARS (Kevin Hackett) saying that the Tucson Bee lab would soon be reporting interesting findings from the labs HFCS research. So far the USDA-ARS has not been able to explain why bees lived half as long when fed HFCS instead of sucrose. For details of the above research see ABJ April 2007 pg. 323 article by Bob Harrison. The article was approved by the heads of the USDA-ARS by reading before publication. For those thinking of writing an article on a bee lab you need to get approval first and then get final approval of the text to be submitted. 2a. despite many of us being skeptical a switch from feeding HFCS (after decades of successful use) to sucrose would produce better bees the list is long with beeks which all agree the switch provided better bees. 3. Commercial beekeepers decided to follow the lead of California beekeepers like Pat Heitkam and start looking at our pollen subs and share formulas. The bee industry owes Pat ( past ABF president) a debt of gratitude for funding and pushing the USDA-ARS for many years (four or five I think) to come up with a better pollen substitute plus better research into bee nutrition. Those commercial beeks which joined those in the above loop saw an immediate change in our bees. Again Pat had been feeding a brewers yeast formula ( which he sells) which I went to and highly recommend. To our surprise Pat had switched to sucrose a few years before (at additional cost ) and saw an improvement in his bees over feeding HFCS. Most beeks in the loop began looking for N. ceranae in their bees and treating. Some as a preventative. Dr. Eric Mussen was enlisted to help find better ways to control the new (now old) nosema and his help provided valuable input! The biggest problem I found in fighting N. ceranae was the fact that some hives could handle N. ceranae more than others. Both Randy O. and myself suspected that the N. ceranae had been in the U.S. for a very long time and some bees had adjusted to high spore loads. This was confirmed this spring and explains much. It is my opinion Barry that commercial beeks must keep nosema ceranae infestations low. Possibly need to treat at regular intervals. This statement will cause and outcry on a mainly hobby list but until better research comes along may be the only way to keep profitability up. When you keep bees for a living you must keep healthy bees. In closing let me say that what beekeepers need to hear at bee meetings all over the country is not from those describing CCD but rather from beeks which have got the best bees in years by controlling the above issues. Of course when your hives are boiling with bees you have little time for meetings. Sincerely, Bob Harrison **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 16:22:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: healthier colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline deknow@netzero.net wrote: >this same dynamic plays out with microbes....they strike a balance between stealing from their host and not killing the host. Hmm. Like HIV? Exactly what would prevent germs from killing their host? Do they think "hey boys, ease up on this guy, we might lose him"? Some species learn to coexist, some do not. Some species survive and others do not. Some parasites mutate and adapt to new host species. But closer to home, varroa doesn't kill bee colonies? In fact, Dr. Wenner took varroa mites to an island off the California coast for the express purpose of eradicating honey bees (a non-native species, off course). The bees died, and the varroa too. Perhaps he wished, like you, that the bees would develop varroa resistance so that he could propagate queens from that stock, but he was hired to get rid of the bees and varroa did it. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 19:01:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: healthier colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/11/2008 22:26:01 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: But closer to home, varroa doesn't kill bee colonies? Not if they're Apis cerana, which is the natural host for the pathogen. Thinking about it: as in the USA the principal economic use of the honeybee is pollination rather than honey production; and Am is an introduced species anyway, why not go the whole hog and introduce Apis cerana which should do as good a job at pollination and not be troubled by varroa? Labour would be saved by not having to perform anti varroa tactics and the honey would be unpolluted by beekeeper-applied chemicals. How does Apis cerana get on with Nosema cerana? Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 01:34:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Beekeepers protest outside Downing Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/11/05/eabees105.xml -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:09:40 +1000 Reply-To: Trevor Weatherhead Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: healthier colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote > Thinking about it: as in the USA the principal economic use of the > honeybee > is pollination rather than honey production; and Am is an introduced > species > anyway, why not go the whole hog and introduce Apis cerana which should do > as > good a job at pollination and not be troubled by varroa? Labour would be > saved by not having to perform anti varroa tactics and the honey would be > unpolluted by beekeeper-applied chemicals. How does Apis cerana get on > with Nosema > cerana? Are you sure that Apis cerana will do as good a job pollinating as Apis mellifera? From my experience, you would not want to have Apis cerana in the USA. They swarm prolifically, they would not produce a lot of honey, they would become established in houses etc. and would they survive the winters in the USA? Back to the pollinating, how would you establish them in boxes? It would look funny carting around a lot of log hives. If you could get them to stay in boxes, the numbers do not build up very well before they swarm. In defense, I suppose you could establish a breeding program that is if they would survive the climate. Not sure how they get on with Nosema ceranae. I know that Thai sacbrood killed a lot at one stage. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 21:12:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Law Subject: Newsvine - British beekeepers seek help to save honeybees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2008/11/05/2076385-british-beekeepers-seek-help-to-save-honeybees -- Dennis Law ( aka Paul D. Law ) Brooklyn South Community Emergency Response Team Logistics Section **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 21:19:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Beekeepers protest outside Downing Street In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10811051634q1903bb52s51de0865ffb1b824@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5-Nov-08, at 7:34 PM, Juanse Barros wrote: > Hi Juanse and all I must bee a slob. My veil(similar to those in the picture) is very dirty. Do British beekeepers make their bee suits spotless before visiting Downing St or are those hired activists in bee suits? More important than that, what is the state of Bee-L beekeepers' bees in Britain? Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 21:48:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: healthier colonies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote:>>> Exactly what would prevent germs from killing their host? Do they think "hey boys, ease up on this guy, we might lose him"?<<<< What happens is some of the germs kill the host and some of them are less potent and don't kill the host. The ones that kill drop out of the race. The ones that co-exist go on to infect again. They don't change in mid-stream they start out less potent. I hope you knew this Pete. Dick Marron **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 08:46:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Beekeepers protest outside Downing Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bob and All > Do British beekeepers make their bee suits spotless before > visiting Downing St or are those hired activists in bee suits? The former. These are real beekeepers with real concerns. > More important than that, what is the state of Bee-L beekeepers' bees in > Britain? The high losses cited for last winter come from real data and ring true around here with some beekeepers losing a high proportion of their stocks. I lost three out of five and that is unusual. After a wet summer with poor queen mating and continuing problems with miticide-resistant Varroa some predict a similarly poor winter to come. As far as I can tell the queen mating this year was not as bad, and there was a good autumn for many so the level of winter stores and the youth of the winter bees is better, so maybe survival will be better. Thankfully, some of the earlier hype has gone from the current campaign. For example the President of the BBKA was amplifying things said by a government minister and claiming that a series of similar losses would leave us with only 20% of the current bee stock. This was clearly unsupportable, as the current losses are driven mostly by poor beekeeping weather and that will change, and the calculation discounted the fact that most beekeepers make up colony losses during the next summer. It's not a CCD thing, and, although there are many that would like to think so, it doesn't seem to be a pesticide thing either. best wishes Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 08:53:23 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Beekeepers protest outside Downing Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Photos from the Reigate beekeepers. http://tinyurl.com/68u2vm **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 05:39:21 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Beekeepers protest outside Downing Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/11/2008 02:57:15 GMT Standard Time, bobbee@INTERLOG.COM writes: More important than that, what is the state of Bee-L beekeepers' bees in Britain? Patchy. This week I extracted over 90lbs of honey from a single hive (a CDB) that I artificially swarmed earlier in the year. Her daughter in the hive alongside has done reasonably well but not so as to produce a harvestable surplus. The other 2 hives in that apiary are putting on weight and might survive the winter but I wasn't able to take any honey. I went into last winter with 18 hives and came out with 7. Usually I don't lose more than the odd one or two, if any. I am now up to 19, but, the year having been spent re-building, there is a very small honey crop. I don't put my losses down to CCD as I haven't seen any hives with the symptoms ascribed to CCD for several years. I first came across it about 10 years ago. The weather this year has been upside down. Cold when they should have been out pollinating early fruits blossom (so I had very few pears and plums this year and am scouring the hedgerows to find enough sloes for sloe gin). We then had a burst of good weather promoting lots of swarms and a heavy apple crop. Summer didn't happen - it rained instead. They simply weren't able to forage when the main crop is usually gathered and many colonies shut down brood rearing for weeks at a time. (This may be a Amm trait as I am led to believe that they are more responsive to adverse weather then Aml). A colleague reported that hives he noticed were awash with varroa mites before the break in brood rearing had comparatively few afterwards. Currently they are foraging busily on the ivy (Hedera helix) at an ambient temperature of about 48F. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 05:42:46 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Beekeepers protest outside Downing Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/11/2008 02:57:15 GMT Standard Time, bobbee@INTERLOG.COM writes: Do British beekeepers make their bee suits spotless before visiting Downing St They were asked to wash them first so as to make a good impression; and to use fairly inoffensive fuel in their smokers. The Parliamentary officials were asked to provide a fire-proof bin for the smouldering fuel so the smokers could be extinguished before entering the building and setting off all the fire alarms. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 06:31:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Beekeepers protest outside Downing Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/11/2008 11:17:03 GMT Standard Time, gavinrbox-beel@YAHOO.CO.UK writes: the current losses are driven mostly by poor beekeeping weather and that will change This was confirmed at a lecture at the National Honey Show by Dr Giles Budge of the government's Central Science Laboratory. There is a very strong statistical link between weather and losses. The greatest peak on the graph for losses was 1987 but nobody made a fuss then! Whether the weather will change is imponderable and Gavin may as well send Mrs Gavin to ask the wether on the hill if the changing climate will wet her. We the possible (probable) cause of global warming are now finding it cooler than usual. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 07:45:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: healthier colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline What happens is some of the germs kill the host and some of them are less potent and don't kill the host. The ones that kill drop out of the race. The ones that co-exist go on to infect again. They don't change in mid-stream they start out less potent. I hope you knew this Pete. My point was that not all populations contain this potential. Obviously for a host -parasite relationship to develop all the virulent parasites and/or susceptible hosts will die first. Those hosts and guests will not adapt. What would remain is less virulent and/or more resistant guests and hosts. But the advent of such a relationship is by no means assured as evidenced by the experiment on Santa Cruz Island. It has taken place in populations of Apis cerana and Apis mellifera scutellata. My point was that while humans can use foresight to avoid killing the goose that lays the golden egg, "microbes" cannot. The problem with these discussions is that if you go into great detail and cover all the bases, the post is so long nobody reads it. But if you leave anything out somebody always pops in and says "Did you not KNOW that?". -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:46:04 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Beekeepers protest outside Downing Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Chris and All You keep Mrs Gavin out of this! > Whether the weather will change is imponderable .... Now you know that isn't right Chris. Our weather changes minute by minute, day by day and year by year. > We the possible (probable) cause of global warming are now finding it > cooler than usual. Unfortunately this isn't right either. The second part anyway. Last summer was still slightly warmer than the long-term average from recent decades: http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/2008/summer/maps/TMean_Anomaly%20No%20Stations.jpg It is the rainfall that was unusual: http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/2008/summer/maps/Rainfall_Anomaly%20No%20Stations.jpg best wishes Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 15:34:45 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Beekeepers protest outside Downing Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Darrell wrote: > Do British beekeepers make their bee suits spotless before visiting > Downing St or are those hired activists in bee suits? More important than > that, what is the state of Bee-L beekeepers' bees in Britain? Yes, we were asked to wash suits before going - but most beekeepers that I know wash their suits regularly as part of a hygienic approach to keeping bees. Ours go in the wash at least twice a week, often more, in the active season. I can vouch that there were no hired activists amongst us! As to the state of our bees, I think that Chris and Gavin have summed it up quite well. The year has been very patchy - our best queen produced 295lbs (4 produced > 200lbs, 12 produced 100-199lbs, 31 produced 50-99lbs), but many produced nothing (average 35lbs on autumn count going into winter, 50lbs on spring count) and we have finished at 50% of expected crop (i.e 27 year average). As to the reasons: Winter losses were 30% - most of it down to queen failure following the disastrous summer and autumn last year. The very poor spring made it difficult (and costly in terms of crop) to rebuild numbers. A very wet summer with very little sunshine then compounded our problems. We go into winter hoping that things will be better next year - crucially we need that spring build-up, something that we used to take for granted but no longer seems to happen. On the disease front we, like everyone else, worry about varroa - but we are perhaps more concerned about N. ceranae as we do not have the experience or knowledge to deal with it efficiently. We definitely do not have CCD, but given the association with IAPV (which is in Europe, but not yet we think in the UK) and N. ceranae it is something about which we have to be concerned. Meanwhile the price of bulk English honey in 300kg barrels has hit £2.40 per lb - how I wish I had some to spare! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 16:22:46 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Beekeepers protest outside Downing Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin wrote: > The Parliamentary officials > were asked to provide a fire-proof bin for the smouldering fuel so the > smokers > could be extinguished before entering the building... The fire-proof bin consisted of one small, empty, galvanised bucket and a plastic one with about an inch of water in it! Perhaps it was just as well that there were only 350 beekeepers there. We could have used a tank of water to cool the smokers as many were red-hot by this time. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 12:04:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: healthier colonies Comments: To: queenbee50@BIGPOND.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Before anyone decides to import Apis ceranae, remember - Kashmir virus came to us from that species of bee. Jerry **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 20:19:11 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: UK Honey Price MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Meanwhile the price of bulk English honey in 300kg barrels has hit =A32.40 = per lb - how I wish I had some to spare! PeterEdwards, for that price I can send you tons of chilean pure valdivian temperate rain forest honey (Tineo, Tiaca and Ulmo honey). Over here the price is around US$2.5 per kilo bulk in barrels, but with the still solid dollar exchange rate, it means lots of chilean money. Not as much as in 2002-2003, but getting closer. I am hoping that the dollar will keep firm till march 2009 and that the argentinian won`t have a bumper crop. Both assumption very risky, tough. --=20 Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 05:44:12 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: healthier colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Peter L Borst wrote: >But the advent of such a relationship is by no means assured as evidenced by the experiment on Santa Cruz Island. It has taken place in populations of Apis cerana and Apis mellifera scutellata. well peter, are you claiming here that this is proof that if left to their own devices, varroa would kill off all honeybees in north america? it's been 100 million years (and an asteroid impact to boot) and the bees are still here despite all the physical and biological challenges they have faced...only recently have they had any help from humans. >My point was that while humans can use foresight to avoid killing the goose that lays the golden egg, "microbes" cannot. this is of course correct...but microbes use something much more effective than foresight to avoid killing the host...they use hindsight. the only microbes that are on/in a given organism are ones that are born from microbes that have survived, reproduced, and transferred to another organism...humans are pretty close to being microbe free before birth (and they pick up different microbes depending on the birthing process), so any microbe on you is survivor stock, and probably didn't kill it's host. do consider that there are 500-1000 different kinds of microbes living in your gut alone..and many thousands more throughout your body...all without killing you (in fact they are feeding you). add to that the millions that we encounter every day..that a bee encounters every day...and how few we are scared of. it is just a fact that the vast vast vast majority of microbes are beneficial/necessary or benign. only some percentage of microbes that are alive today will be alive tomorrow...some strategies will not work for some microbes in some circumstances, and they will not reproduce. 100% of the microbes that are alive tomorrow were either alive today, or descended from microbes that are alive today. this is the difference between foresight and hindsight. foresight only works some of the time, hindsight works all the time. same thing applies to the host/parasite relationship...parasites that are alive today may or may not have traits that allow them to reproduce...those alive tomorrow are descended from those that did. aside from the current "ccd", and a few cases of disappearing diseases and spring/fall dwindle....most actual pathogenic bee diseases can be counted on your fingers. compare this to the at least 6000 microbes that live in a healthy hive...and especially since several of these are pathogens, but keep each other in balance, and are present in most hives without showing symptoms. ramona has been doing a ton of research on this topic...and we have been talking non-stop about microbes...both in and out of the beehive. we see where we got things wrong in "No Bee Is An Island". it isn't that the pollen grain needs to ferment in order to just "pop open"...it is the progression of many fermentation processes, each setting the stage for the next, that produces necessary substances for the other microbes, and for the bees. think of the fermentation of pollen as a tree rotting in the forest...there is a progression of bugs living underneath it, a few tunneling inside, molds and fungi, sow bugs, centipedes..... the exact makeup of this culture of microorganisms is a heritable thing...perhaps more so than the genetics of the bees, and perhaps more important. antibiotics, pesticides, and other treatments that disrupt the microbial balance (which seems to include sugar as a winter feed) will, over time, erode the diversity and functionality of this culture. the key (regardless of cell size) is not so much to breed a varroa (or nosema) resistant bee, but to allow the bees to build up their microbial culture without interference. keeping the bees alive long enough for this to happen is the trick....and perhaps that's what sc has to offer...perhaps it's a red herring, but we are both convinced that the microbes are the key. we think that sc might well give a head start (our experience suggests this). it may be that in some areas, some of the essential microbes have become extinct and/or rare due to the impacts of varroa, tracheal mite, and beekeeper practices...perhaps this points to why some have success and other failure. it's more than likely that these microbial cultures have some things in common, and some are localized. in any case, this is what ramona is going to be giving a talk on at the nebraska state conference...and it's going to be exciting. she will cover this stuff in much more detail. if you are interested in attending, the last day to register is the 14th OF THIS MONTH...and it's only $95. all the speakers are excellent (i won't speak for myself), and i can tell you that you won't think about bees the same way after ramona gets done with you :) deknow i should also say that i know that some parasites transfer to new hosts after they kill their old host. generally, this seems to be successful than moving from one live host to the next. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 01:31:21 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Beekeepers protest outside Downing Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > the current losses are driven mostly by poor beekeeping > weather and that will change So the funding will be needed to study the weather? :) I am confused at having a march for "more funding", yet admitting that bad weather and lackluster varroa control are the main problems. Neither issue needs more R&D funding. Regardless, beekeepers should take care on the streets, be it Downing Street or Park Avenue. For example, Joanne Thomas, President of the Long Island NY Beekeepers Club, returned home last night after spending the prior six days in an Intensive Care Unit. She slipped, hit her head on a curb, and suffered a nasty thing called a "subdural hematoma". She also got lots of blood on the sidewalk of Park Ave, which is likely an offense much worse than failure to curb one's dog. Lucky for her, she was in Manhattan, which has nearly as many hospitals as Boston, and some of them almost as good as those in Toronto. It will be a while before she is back to either beekeeping or personal training (her weekday business), but she will be back. The only reason I know any of this is that Joanne is my wife. Not to worry, while she is stuck with me as her home nurse, she has been issued an impressive array of sedatives to help her cope with the less-than ideal situation of being forced to endure me for 24 hours a day, seven days a week. She's a very tough cookie, so she'll hit the ground running soon, and likely be able to outrun all the rest of us when she does. I'll not complain about the weapons-system cost overrun level of expense associated with the last few days, as the majority of people left Intensive Care this week with a family member in a pine box, while I took home a live woman. So, send her a note if you have the time, as she will be bored with daytime TV in precisely 1.6 milliseconds, and needs some distraction between her physical therapy sessions. She demands that I teach her a new "bee fact" every day over breakfast, so highly obscure bee trivia from other beekeepers would be especially enjoyed. Her e-mail address is fitnyc@earthlink.net **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 09:22:44 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Beekeepers protest outside Downing Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jim > .. bad weather and lackluster varroa control are the > main problems. Neither issue needs more R&D funding. Exactly. It worries me that the public concern and the campaigning is partially built on hype. However it is true that the UK had international-level researchers in bee pathology and that this research has been dismantled, leaving us with practically-orientated researchers at another location but not the underlying knowledge-seeking research. This leaves us in a weaker position to meet future problems of course. Give Joanne a (gentle) hug from me. best wishes Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 07:21:44 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Please Send Prince Charles some honey.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I said: >> I know Jerry's standard after-dinner talk on this subject, >> so, for anyone anywhere in the lower 48, my retort to Dee is: >> "Clean Honey" my foot! Bob asked: > Could you back up the above statement with some facts? As I said, I point to Jerry's talks on this subject. To summarize, bees can and do pick up and bring home absolutely everything, so much so that they are excellent "pollution detectors", and Jerry often finds what they bring home in the honey, the wax, everywhere. So, face it. Nothing is "pure" any more. Our machines have gotten far to sensitive to play innocent. But don't sweat it, as we can now detect things at levels so tiny they are laughable to anyone with any education. Parts-per-trillion is a real detectable level, not a joke. To illustrate, the difference between parts per million, billion and trillion, it is the difference between owing me (in the USA or France or Canada): Parts per Million = One million dollars Parts per Billion = One thouand dollars Parts Per Trillion = One dollar Note that in the UK and Germany, a "billion" is 10^12, which the US and France call a "trillion". So, here's a handy converion table: 10^9 billion (US) - millard (UK) 10^12 trillion (US) - billion (UK) 10^15 quadrillion (US) - ???? (UK) 10^18 quintillion (US) - trillion (UK) The US system gives a name to each multiple of one thousand, with the UK system gives a name to each multiple of a million. More useful measurement schemes for US beekeepers are listed below. Some of them have to be said aloud to be understood: 10^21 piccolos = 1 gigolo 10^12 bulls = 1 terabull 10^12 microphones = 1 megaphone 10^12 pins = 1 terrapin billions and billions = 1 Sagan 10^9 lows = 1 gigalow 10^9 antics = 1 gigantic 10^9 questions = 1 gigawhat 10^6 bicycles = 2 megacycles 2*10^3 mockingbirds = 2 kilo mockingbird 10 cards = 1 decacard 10 dence = 1 decadence 10 millipedes = 1 centipede 10 monologues = 5 dialogues 10 rations = 1 decoration 5 holocausts = 1 Pentecost 2 bulls = 1 Pair a bull 2 homosexuals = 1 bisexual 1 centipede/second = 1 velocipede 10^-1 mate = 1 decimate 10^-2 mentals = 1 centimental 10^-6 fish = 1 microfiche 10^-6 scopes = 1 microscope 10^-9 goats = 1 nanogoat 10^-12 boos = 1 picoboo 10^-12 dillies = 1 picodilly 10^-18 boys = 1 atto boy **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 07:22:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: healthier colonies In-Reply-To: <20081107.004412.14480.0@webmail13.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 12:44 AM, deknow@netzero.net wrote: > -- Peter L Borst wrote: > >But the advent of such a relationship is by no means assured as evidenced > by the experiment on Santa Cruz Island. It has taken place in populations of > Apis cerana and Apis mellifera scutellata. > > well peter, are you claiming here that this is proof that if left to their > own devices, varroa would kill off all honeybees in north america? it's > been 100 million years (and an asteroid impact to boot) and the bees are > still here despite all the physical and biological challenges they have > faced...only recently have they had any help from humans. Bad argument, as there are literally millions of species that are extinct. This line of reasoning assumes a static universe. Also pathogens can wipe out one species as they have other hosts or leap species. Peter is right. Plus, it is not Varroa or other mites that are the main problem. It is the pathogens that do most of the killing. Mites weaken bees so they are more susceptible to anything that might be out there, including winter. We always seem to get back to Carrick who set most of us right way back with Tracheal.. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 22:45:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: healthier colonies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter L Borst wrote: > deknow@netzero.net wrote: > > >> this same dynamic plays out with microbes....they strike a balance between stealing from their host and not killing the host. >> > > Hmm. Like HIV? Exactly what would prevent germs from killing their > host? Do they think "hey boys, ease up on this guy, we might lose > him"? > Those that kill the host too quickly are wither not passed on, or are not passed on to as many new hosts as those that are less virulent. Simple math. In biology the name of the game is to spread far and wide. Killing one's host before it can pass on your progeny does not make for a bug that lasts. Keith **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************