From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:12:30 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA444909E for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3YX7017258 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:36 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0811D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 365875 Lines: 7856 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 04:57:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: FW: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 22/11/2008 00:49:13 GMT Standard Time, murray@DENROSA.DEMON.CO.UK writes: <> On the whole I agree with you there, but I am curious as to how much outcrossing actually does happen. My experience of hybrids has been worse than yours; I've tried them twice, and had bad-tempered bees both times. But I may well be fussier than you; I have close neighbours, and make it policy to requeen any colony which tries to sting (as opposed to the odd sting on my hand) when opened. It seems to work; I've kept colonies on my allotment for ten years now, and never had complaints. I almost replied to another post of yours just now, when you said your bees build up in May. Did they do so at the normal time this year? Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:28:12 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: FW: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad In-Reply-To: <2ySonae2Z1JJFwja@denrosa.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All A few points cherry picked form Murray's post to Robert. > just our tough local bees, The bees in Murray's area have background genetics that have been in that region for thousands of years (I'll let others argue over whether it is 9,000 or 15,000 years, but they were not brought by the Romans as some are currently suggesting). > I have never done any morphometry and > probably never will. Its fine detail that does not really concern me as > all I want are robust vigorous and hard working bees. In our climate > this invariably means dark but does not HAVE to mean Amm. Morphometry can give additional information, but should never be the final arbiter of the usefulness of a bee. The behaviours and traits that the beekeeper recognises in the bees and matches to the circumstances is what matters, racial purity should not be a goal, although as it increases stability becomes easier to achieve. There are some that seek total racial purity, but I feel that they are chasing rainbows, stable and repeatable (predictable) characteristics are what is required. > I have never noticed any of the reputed > problems attributed to crosses, in fact crosses are often great. Dark > phase NWC virgins (see earlier posts about open mating and Italian > drones. Only choose the dark ones as they have an NWC dad as well) > crossed on local dark bees ( which are predominantly Amm) is a truly > excellent cross, and its vigour takes two or three generations to revert > back to the local mean. Maybe the crosses that I have played with are different to Murray's, but first crosses in my area are often quite nasty in temper and will meet you on your way to the apiary. Murray's comment about predominantly Amm drone making good fathers to his NWC stock is born out by what happened as my breeding operation came to a close, My breeding apiary was less than three miles from an apiary run by my local beekeeping association, ten years ago I was still actively putting high numbers of A. m. mellifera drones into area and matings at the association apiary produced calm bees that did not exhibit the nastiness usually associated with crosses, as my health and activity declined the number of drones fell and ceased altogether about five years ago, the matings that now occur at the association apiary give rise to nasty and untrustworthy colonies. > I would say just persist with the bees you like, no matter what the > morphometry says. Its all a bit nazi to me, perfectly good bees rejected > because their wing venation is not as desired. If things become bigoted to the extent that Murray mentions, I agree, but we should be looking at behaviour first and foremost, Morphometry may tell you information about hybridisation, but should never overrule behaviour. We are on the threshold whereby DNA becomes more important in beekeeping, but again this tells us additional information, it is the behaviour and its fit with the environment that the bee has to live in that matters. -- Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 11:34:02 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Dave's queens question In-Reply-To: <7kPLy9bDNyJJFwTK@denrosa.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Murray > Way off topic on this thread Dave, It was interest, not a red herring > to do ONE bar of grafts every day. A graft is 32 cells. My grafting frames were originally 16 cells on a National width, but I ended up ignoring the two end positions as they were the ones that failed most. > Average > acceptance is 22 to 26 ( though we have had 31 a few times, never a 32, 14 out of 14 in a row was common enough, but acceptance thought to be slightly higher, difficult to say as I used to count the number of failed cups or if the take was very low the number of cells. Majority were less than five failures out of 28. Middle range numbers were rare and anything as low as five or less cells was usually scrapped. I did not graft every day, but to a pre arranged schedule and did a batch of two cell bar frames at a time (56 grafts) this number dwindled to 30 to 35 a batch by the time we were counting mated queens. My motherlines were a number of lines kept in five frame nucs, usually about seven, but only about half of the batches came from these queens, the rest coming from queens of developing colonies that were in five frame nucs or any other colony that attracted my attention. (if I was doing this over again I would have had six frame and eight frame nucs for final assessment purposes rather than just five framers) The work of raising the cells was done in the full sized hives, often using Harry Cloake's method, the cells being transferred to mating nucs (bigger than Apidea) > As I mentioned earlier we try to mate the queens away from the apiary of > their birth, I did not have that luxury, because my drone raising was done in a group of 55 hives that were used as cell builders (and anything else that was needed). Apart from these hives that were overproducing drones, most of the other colonies on site were nucs of some sort or another and so would be producing very few drones. > 'guidelines, not tramlines' I have not heard it stated that way before, but I wholeheartedly agree! Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 09:02:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Plaisted Subject: Re: Law of the Survivor In-Reply-To: <411818.71374.qm@web56401.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Nice to hear from you. I know that you were into the feral bee thing=2C an= d I encourage you to keep up some ongoing efforts in this area. But=2C I=92= m not sure that =93no treatments=94 equates to =93dead bees=94. I see this = equation made by beekeepers all the time. The problem is=2C that beekeepers= tend to want to blame a single event for there problems=2C and beekeepers = that have hives die in years they use no treatments have a convenient scape= goat=2C partly because everybody makes assertions that bees will die witho= ut treatments. This gives false comfort and good cause for future failure b= y ignoring the real cause=2C which perhaps is bees lacking in resistant tra= its." =20 Joe=2C think you missed my point. You can treat for everything or nothing= =2C it's the pest you don't know about that will kill your hives=2C and it = seems there is a new pest imported every few years. You can't breed out of= these problems=2C even bees with some nosema restantance have problems wit= h nosema cereana. =20 =20 I also offer a jar of honey to any hunter who gets a bear in my area... =20 Jim http://www.northernqueens.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious emai= l. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safe= ty_112008 = **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 09:53:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Informed Discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Greetings I would like to say one thing apropos to the recent discussions. To me, it makes no difference if so and so is a commercial beekeeper or not. I am not, and I view my role as an educator. I have been a commercial beekeeper, among many other things, and commercial beekeepers, as a whole, are no better nor worse than any other beekeepers. What matters to me as an educator is this: it really bothers me when somebody takes something I said and does it, and fails. I want people to succeed. Therefore, I preface everything I say with the warning that beekeeping is local, one size does NOT fit all, your actual mileage may differ, find out what works for you. On the other hand, I see beekeeping, and knowledge in general, as a synthesis of what we know: which includes what we thought was right and discarded. We must never forget the mistakes of the past, but never cling to the outmoded. We can either barge into the future, or get dragged their, but we are going there nonetheless. 'Nuff said. Thanks to all of you who wrote and asked for my article. I have decided to post all three parts as well as some stuff by Charlie Mraz and Leslie Bailey at: http://groups.google.com/group/upstate-new-york-beekeeping **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 11:36:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kirk_Jones?= Subject: requeening time frame and pollen patty value Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, I caught some discussion on requeening from Bob H. and thought I would comment. We don't kill off queens as long as they are doing the job. When we do our splits in Florida, we will let good queens keep on laying and only kill the duds. Then we put in queen cells s couple days later and the new queens mate with the general drone population of the survivor hives. The survivor hives are the ones that make it through Cal. pollination, then Michigan tree fruit pollination, then a summer honey crop. During the spring and early summer we requeen as needed, as we can start to see what hives have robust laying queens and what doesn't. We can count on losing 10% of the hives by the time we finish the year and blow out the duds when we harvest honey. In Florida, we raise thousands of queen cells, and install them in all new splits. We pick out the breeders that have at least 9 combs of Brood in January in the panhandle of Florida. We also graft from some of Glenn's breeder stock that has the VSH traits. We only target an installation of about 10% or less of the VSH stock because we don't know how they will measure up for monster brood laying and temperment. Our goal is to introduce the VSH traits for the next years drone population for inseminating our new queens. We only run about 400 mating nucs in three way deeps for harvesting queens for checkbacks on the cell installations and end up buying lots of laying queens too. It's fun to make the new laying queens, but man...what a lot of work. We only get 2 out of 3 as a rule. Believe me, queen breeders earn their money. We do get a lot of swarming in Florida, but that is kind of normal with the Ti Ti nectar flow. We started giving the bees more room but supering the singles early. Many of the singles we make end up doubles by the end of the year to go to Cal. Some stay singles all summer so we can send them back to Florida, double them up in January, and feed non stop for a late Feb. split. We use the patties too. Has anyone done any trials on the Mann Lake patties compared to Dadant's new super duper Mega Bee patties? I will this spring. I thought that we could feed half the yard one and half the yard the other. I would kindly appreciate any comments. Mann Lake claims that dollar for dollar they are a better buy. See ya, Kirk www.sleepingbearfarms.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 08:39:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Personal Attacks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I very much appreciate all the constructive input contributed by all on this thread, as this has been an unresolved question for well over a decade Specifically, the problem has been deciding what constitutes personal attacks, and what is legitimate examination of issues and determining the credentials, experience and evidence of a writer making claims, and where the line should be drawn, or if there even should be an attempt to moderate. Speaking for myself, there should be no place on the list for personal attacks in any of the many subtle or overt forms, but the legitimate examination of issues and determining the credentials, experience and evidence of a writer is essential to understanding issues and central to the function of this list as a venue for "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" . 'Balanced' and 'Civil' should be in there, too, but that makes for too long a description. All but a few agree that abuse should be verboten, but the problem is deciding where the line is drawn, and by whom. There are cultural differences and also degrees of personal sensitivity. Some, particularly the well credentialed expect and welcome any examination of their background and experience, and some others are uncomfortable if anyone so much as glances their way. Like beauty and humour, to some extent the determination of what is an attack or abuse is in the eye of the beholder. Some consider almost any scrutiny of their ideas or background -- or those of others -- to be rude and abusive. Others revel in some rough and tumble and find things dull if they cannot get something going from time to time. When these differing types get together on one list, there is bound to be squabbles about what's fair or foul, and major headaches for the moderators. I like to think that, on BEE-L, since it is a university-based list with some pretenses to being based on science, any honest, relevant and politely worded request for, and polite examination of credentials and/or documentation is entirely to be expected and welcomed. That is what makes this list special and respected, and also what makes this list very annoying to a few. That simply cannot be helped if the mandate is to be respected. I also very much appreciate the high quality discussion ongoing between experienced beekeepers from various places around the world at present. It is particularly remarkable that, even though there are huge differences in philosophy, purpose and experience, and disagreement on a number of topics, that the discussion is level, respectful, informative and constructive. Words are deliberately neutral, and the comments reflect some considerable thought, not just a reaction. Moreover, the posts are well-edited, quotes are clearly set out as such and pared to the minimum necessary, and opinions are shared and respected for what they are: opinions. This is BEE-L at its best. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/hygienic.htm --- We need not to be let alone. We need to be really bothered once in a while. How long is it since you were really bothered? About something important, about something real? -- Ray Bradbury (1920 - ), Fahrenheit 451, 1953 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 19:09:22 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: FW: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message , Robert Brenchley writes I almost replied to another post of yours just now, when you said your bees build up in May. Did they do so at the normal time this year? ......................................................................... ............. Re Allens post about edits and quotes. Sadly this time I could not as the post I am replying to turned up below my signature line on list and if i hit reply it vanished. However, back to the subject matter. Build up this year was close to its historical normal time, with egg laying accelerating from mid April onwards, and in full swing during May. In apiaries on the rapeseed/canola the build up was perfectly normal albeit a little behind recent seasons, in the handful of ones (only 4 out of 68 yards) on other duties (such as ones paid to be on a couple of strawberry farms) build up was slow and never got into the almost explosive phase we get mid May time most years. In the context of recent seasons however this could be deemed a bit late. In 2007 brood nest expansion was well under way in early April and swarm preparations were in hand by the third week of the month in any groups that had not been attended to in time. In both seasons the wheels came off in June, although I would suggest that 07 was worse than 08 in that respect, at least in our area. In 07 it rained horizontally for much of the month, daytime max of 11 to 14 C was pretty normal, and there were no decent flowers about. Colonies not stimulated by feeding syrup which were split in early June and left with 3 bars of brood had only 3 to 6 bars of brood at month end. ( Normally about 20 to 25 days is the time it takes to be back at a full and congesting nest requiring further action. Note, these are the half with the old queen, left on the position of the original colony and get all the flying bees back to mother.) In 08 the June build up was slow and colonies split in early June DID prosper in time for going to the heather, but never needed any more serious attention. The splits themselves were either made before the fourth of June and prospered with good early mated queens or those made from 5th June onwards till the end of the month just failed to mate for protracted spells, often turned drone layer, and never built up properly. Those ones which did mate are going into this winter on a bit of a wing and a prayer, being a bit smaller than I normally like to see. I understand what you say about the need for quieter bees than we tolerate due to them being on your allotment. We are wary of anything TOO nasty as at heather time we are on estates with a very high footfall of walkers so serious followers are not accepted, nor are types who are in attack mode on days with good bee handling conditions. -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:32:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Comparing Pollen Patties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Has anyone done any trials on the Mann Lake patties compared to Dadant's > new super duper Mega Bee patties? I will this spring. I thought that we > could feed half the yard one and half the yard the other. I would kindly > appreciate any comments. Mann Lake claims that dollar for dollar they are > a better buy. Actually, there is a third source you might want to include in your trials. I should warn you in advance, I am biased. I think for good reason, but you can decide. Global Patties, ( http://globalpatties.com/ ) located in Montana and Alberta, and supply or have have supplied patties using a wide variety of materials, including BeePro, FeedBee, MegaBee, and simple yeast/sugar and yeast/soy/sugar patties. All of these, other than MegaBee, have been offered with and without pollen as well. All Global patties contain approximately the same proportion of sugar as well, for preservation and to encourage consumption. The formula for the yeast/soy/sugar patties -- the favourite -- is not secret and the details are freely available at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/. It is the formula we used ourselves in the past, and was initially adopted by Frank and Mike, since they originally began by custom-making patties for me and some friends. Global were so well appreciated by beekeepers, that they grew from there into an international supplier with very little advertising. Interestingly, even after trying many different highly rated products, the original simple yeast/soy/sugar/pollen formula has proven the most popular and enduring product by far. There may be better formulas out there, but as far as bang for the buck is concerned, this seems to be the beekeepers' choice. Besides cost, another big plus is that, with this simple formula, you know exactly what the ingredients are, and that they are high quality food-grade, non-spoiling, and fresh. You are not putting unspecified ingredients into your hive. Moreover, these patties do not dry out or drip down. Global is the originator of the rectangular patty and punctured paper design, which has more recently been widely copied by competitors (without anyone asking). They are neat and simple to use. Global is also the price leader. Their low-cost approach and low margins have driven down the prices of products offered by competitors. They also custom-make patties, so some proprietary patties offered on the market have actually originated at their plant. Patties made up with MegaBee, FeedBee and BeePro although, and offered as Global products in the past, failed to maintain sufficient interest to justify being made in the volumes Global requires, and have been dropped from the price list in the US, although Global will make up anything you want on request, assuming the minimum batch size is met. You actually might save money by buying a competitor's ingredients and having the patties made by Global! These various feed combinations that Global has made up in the past, in response to requests by beekeepers and/or feed product owners or dealers, have been widely tested in Canada and the US, by beekeepers, and the clear choice, if volume of sales is any indication, seems to be for the yeast, soy and pollen patties. As to be expected, though there are some who prefer some one or another brand name product, and some have custom batches made. Price, texture and customer preference for the basic, lower cost patties were the main reasons to drop the other lines. Even though Global offered them very competitively, the volume simply was not there. Beekeepers found overwhelmingly that the simple yeast/soy/pollen/sugar formula provided the best results per dollar and keep well both in the box and on the hive. Global requires minimum volumes in any product they make because they have to source fresh ingredients direct from the manufacturer if possible, and their policy is to get the finished product to the beekeeper ASAP, since proteins degrade over time, and warehousing of either ingredients or patties for anything longer than a few months has been demonstrated to result in very diminished efficacy of patties! Global's products are available factory-direct by truckload lots, or from depots around North America for smaller amounts. One thing to consider, since you mentioned Florida, is that there have been reports that pollen patties are enjoyed by Small Hive Beetles, just as much as by the bees under some circumstances, and that this must be considered when feeding patties there. I am not entirely conversant with the details, but asking around might be in order. One last consideration, when obtaining protein feeds, be sure to ask how long the ingredients were warehoused and what the manufacture date of the patties was. I don't know how long it takes for these things to degrade to where they have absolutely no benefit, but I think a year is too long for unrefrigerated storage. Maybe some of our scientists can comment. In the interests of full disclosure, I continue to do some consulting for Global and consider them good friends, so I am not unbiased. I hope this does not sound too much like a commercial, but I am really impressed with this outfit. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/ --- We are indeed much more than what we eat, but what we eat can nevertheless help us to be much more than what we are. -- Adelle Davis (1904 - 1974) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 14:02:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Law of the Survivor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim P wrote: >>> I don't really have a mite problem, even after 2 years of no treatments(nothing, no drugs introduced into the hive), I saw maybe 20 mites in my hives all summer. I do however have a problem with Noseama Ceranae....a big problem. Lost 85% of my hives last year to that bug. Did I treat for it this year? You betcha. <<<<< Jim, We've talked a bit on another list and I know you to be experienced and a serious beekeeper. If you were not I'd ask the following questions. Then I thought: why should I spare you? How do you assess the mite numbers? How high would you let them get before treating? How do you know Nosema Ceranae killed your bees? It's not new and exists sometimes without harm. I treated 25 hives at the end of Aug with Miteaway-2 because I had 15 to 20 dropping on a sticky board daily. I think it was too little, too late. Dick Marron **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 21:19:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Bee-L at its best MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "I also very much appreciate the high quality discussion ongoing between experienced beekeepers from various places around the world at present." I been wondering for a while how many are we? From which latitudes?. Which percentaje "writtes and shares opinions" of those subscribed? Are there any statistics of Bee-L? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 17:26:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Personal Attacks Comments: To: Allen Dick Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Specifically, the problem has been deciding what constitutes personal >attacks, and what is legitimate examination of issues… Hi Allen, Nice to see you back on the list! I’ll also forward this to your inbox, because me email or perhaps computer isn’t working right and the letter might get lost in the mail. I think your statement answers your own question. Legitimate examination of the issues is just that, ‘examination of the issues’. Examination of the person, or assumptions made on the person, is a personal attack Take these few hypothetical quotes I conjured up just for example: “we can simply start e-mailing Mr. xxxxx” “I think that we can change xxxxx’s mind.” “xxxxx still doubts” “xxxxx blames the victims” “make it possible for a amateur like xxxxx” “problem seems to be that xxxxx” “So, xxxxx is a crackpot” The above is an example, (be it totally fabricated) is what constitutes a personal attack. Another indication that “might suggest” a personal attack is occurring, is the repetitive mention a persons name or assumptions made on that person over and over and over and over,,,, again, again and again in a single post. A persons name is for addressing them only at the top of a letter, or crediting a quote or an idea as belonging to that person. Anytime you are examining the person and not the issues, that is a personal attack. ...experience and evidence of a writer making claims, and where >the line should be drawn, or if there even should be an attempt to moderate. Line should be drawn at examination the evidence and subject matter, and not examining the person. This is Bee-L not Human-L But I will say, when personal attacks are made, it will become Person-L. LOL Some, particularly >the well credentialed expect and welcome any examination of their background >and experience, and some others are uncomfortable if anyone so much as >glances their way. IMO, The value of what a person has to say, should not always depend upon credentials. How many on the list have a collage degree in anything related to honeybees? I doubt there are more than a few. How many here have credentials in science or somewhere else, and assume these credentials are transferable to honeybees?,,, probably 3,000 or so. What criteria does one use to determine credentials? When my State Apiarist came to inspect my bees. He appeared to be extremely interested in hearing about my beekeeping methodry, as well as what mechanisms I thought were the reason for ‘some things occurring’ in my beehives. Now, he may or may not have chosen to believe me, but he was very generous towards sharing his views with me, as well as hearing what I have to say and discussing bee topics with me. I don’t recall him asking for credentials. IMO, Bee-L is blessed to have a wide variety of members with different backgrounds, this is an asset, and should not be limited by the exclusion of those not having what is perceived to be ‘credentials‘. Perhaps, a requirement for credentials could be left out altogether. With or without credentials, wouldn’t you expect the issue being discussed to stand up to scrutiny? Best Wishes, Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 14:53:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Walk-Away Splits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ... I have decided to post all three parts as well as some stuff by > Charlie Mraz and Leslie Bailey at: > http://groups.google.com/group/upstate-new-york-beekeeping Good stuff. Thanks. Reading Chas. Mraz's article, I recall we had many hot discussions here years back, about the wisdom of raising queens by emergency impulse. I took a lot of lumps. In Chas. Mraz's article at http://tinyurl.com/5gs2pf, I see this: > When we divide, we pick the colonies that were the best producers the > season before. We winter our colonies in 2-1/2 or more brood chambers so > that even in early spring the colonies are strong and divisions of good > strength can be easily made with one full hive body containing plenty of > bees, honey and sealed brood and enough eggs to produce cells. This > division, without the queen, is placed on top of the parent colony > above a solid cover with an entrance. This saves the need of extra covers > and bottom boards. > We do not graft, but just let the bees produce their own cells, and do > not look at them again until a month later with queens will be laying. > After the queens are laying, the nucleus and queen can be moved anywhere > needed for requiring or replacement. We find queens produced in this > manner are equal to those produced by any other system. By letting each division raise its own queen, we reproduce only one daughter from each mother queen. This helps greatly to prevent in-breeding and prevent losing our basic stock of breeding queens. I never did recall where I got the idea of walk-Away splits, but it must have been from him, as he had quite an influence and he was up to Alberta a time or two. I remember being on stage with him one time when he requested a volunteer for an apitherapy demonstration and being marked with a pen, then stung in the elbow. I tend to get 'tennis elbow' by picking up supers with one hand. The sting did not have any effect that I recall -- FWIW. He was one of the greats and shared his ideas freely far and wide. Thanks for the reminder. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/spring/splits.htm#Comparing --- In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted. Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 18:26:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Bee-L at its best MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Are there any statistics of Bee-L? Raw numbers are: * Total number of "concealed" subscribers: 32 * Total number of users subscribed to the list: 754 (non-"concealed" = only) This is down from its high when BEE-L was the only game in town and used = to carry about 1200 subscribers. The decline may be attributed to an = oversaturation of beekeeping related lists, althugh some have opined it = those rat bastard moderators who drive everyone away. AFAIK, BEE-L is = the only list that makes an attempt to maintain its subscription by = automatically deleting subscribers who leave the list without = unsubscribing. If mail is undeliverable for 10 days in a row LISTSERV = automatically deletes the undeliverable subscriber. So the numbers = reflect actual people and do not include phantom subscribers. =20 As far as where we are from, one could do an analysis of the addresses = to get an idea, but the subscription list was made private years back = when a former subscriber harvested the list for commercial purposes. = Suffice it to say we are many, diverse and scattered. =20 Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 15:36:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Personal Attacks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Note: I really don't want to keep this going any longer than necessary, since it is a meta-topic, but, seeing as I see it is still going, I'll reply one more time. --- Hi Joe, I have been enjoying your posts as well lately. > The above is an example, (be it totally fabricated) is what constitutes a > personal attack. I tend to agree, with the _possible_ exception of > “xxxxx still doubts” depending on tone and context. > Another indication that “might suggest” a personal attack is occurring, is > the repetitive mention a persons name or assumptions made on that person > over and over and over and over,,,, again, again and again in a single > post. Yup. Again, the context and tone are significant factors. > A persons name is for addressing them only at the top of a letter, or > crediting a quote or an idea as belonging to that person. Anytime you are > examining the person and not the issues, that is a personal attack. In general, this is true, however, In some cases the person's circumstances or behaviours may be germane to considering the context and unavoidably involved in the analysis' of an idea. Also, where an idea is being promoted and there is less than full disclosure of the history and financing behind it, those matters may need to come to light. Generally, my policy is to leave names out of my posts, and address only the ideas, but there are cases where names are appropriate and necessary. This post is one. > ...experience and evidence of a writer making claims, and where the line > should be drawn, or if there even should be an attempt to moderate. > Line should be drawn at examination the evidence and subject matter, and > not examining the person. I agree to the extent that a person's family or sex life is not relevant, but where a person's bee activities and beekeeping financing are part and parcel of the question and the conclusions are necessarily based on those facts, they are relevant. > This is Bee-L not Human-L > But I will say, when personal attacks are made, > it will become Person-L. LOL Hehehe. > IMO, The value of what a person has to say, should not always depend upon > credentials. How many on the list have a collage degree in anything > related to honeybees? I doubt there are more than a few. How many here > have credentials in science or somewhere else, and assume these > credentials are transferable to honeybees?,,, probably 3,000 or so. What > criteria does one use to determine credentials? Maybe I used the wrong word: "A credential is an attestation of qualification, competence, or authority issued to an individual by a third party with a relevant de jure or de facto authority or assumed competence to do so. "Examples of credentials include academic diplomas, academic degrees, certifications, security clearances, identification documents, badges, passwords, user names, keys, powers of attorney, and so on. Sometimes publications, such as scientific papers or books, may be viewed as similar to credentials by some people, especially if the publication was peer reviewed or made in a well-known journal or reputable publisher. I meant it in the broadest sense, and include diplomas from the School of Hard Knocks, and the League of Dirty Fingernails. Most of us have some sort of credentials among beekeepers. You do, I do, and so do all the rest. Some are more impressive than others. > When my State Apiarist came to inspect my bees. He appeared to be > extremely interested in hearing about my beekeeping methodry, as well as > what mechanisms I thought were the reason for ‘some things occurring’ in > my beehives. Now, he may or may not have chosen to believe me, but he > was very generous towards sharing his views with me, as well as hearing > what I have to say and discussing bee topics with me. I don’t recall him > asking for credentials. He did not need to. He was looking at them. He saw your bees, he saw your neighbourhood, and he saw how you handled the bees and equipment and heard what you thought > IMO, Bee-L is blessed to have a wide variety of members with different > backgrounds, this is an asset, and should not be limited by the exclusion > of those not having what is perceived to be ‘credentials‘. It is wide open and should be, but some speak very convincingly from limited experience or without revealing what supports and drives their activities. Some of us feel it reasonable to make sure that all the facts are apparent so that those who are unwary can make decisions based on fact, rather than an incomplete or distorted version of affairs. > Perhaps, a requirement for credentials could be left out altogether. With > or without credentials, wouldn’t you expect the issue being discussed to > stand up to scrutiny? If a person is used as an example, or claims to be one, the person becomes part of the issue. Don't worry. You have creds with me, and I am impressed that you are as interested in this topic as you are. Thanks. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/loader/loader.htm --- It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers. James Thurber (1894 - 1961) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 15:42:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Bee-L at its best MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > * Total number of "concealed" subscribers: 32 > * Total number of users subscribed to the list: 754 (non-"concealed" > only) We must remember that BEE-L is also increasingly read through the web interface by lurkers -- possibly hundreds a day -- and that activity leaves no count. Moreover, some of the better (and worst) BEE-L posts are widely forwarded around the 'net and show up in many influential places. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/cutter_build.htm --- A thinker sees his own actions as experiments and questions--as attempts to find out something. Success and failure are for him answers above all. Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900), The Gay Science, section 41 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 19:55:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Comparing Pollen Patties In-Reply-To: <049309135C63449B9496C4F6406D2CD2@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > Interestingly, even after trying many different highly rated products, the > original simple yeast/soy/sugar/pollen formula has proven the most popular > and enduring product by far. There may be better formulas out there, but as > far as bang for the buck is concerned, this seems to be the beekeepers' > choice. Good info. Way back when there was a discussion on feeding patties from a feeding station instead of directly in the hive. Any new or old thoughts about that? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:27:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: FW: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad In-Reply-To: <2ySonae2Z1JJFwja@denrosa.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Don't confuse visibility with scale or quality. Ask Bob. Even in the US > some of the breeders are virtually invisible if all you do is a web search > or a read of the US bee press. In Texas during spring many beeks raise & sell queens/cells. Most of us prefer cells due to the lower cost and time is not an issue as it will be a couple months before the hives will be shipped north. Later in the spring mated queens are preferred. Almost none of these beeks advertise. Brad Folsland from Oldham, South, Dakota does not advertise but produces for himself and other beeks as many queens and cells as many small producers which advertise. Brad gets his breeder queens new each season from Marla Spivak. Brad is a fourth generation commercial beekeeper and claims Fosland Honey is the oldest still running operation in South , Dakota. I have seen both brad's and his Brothers registered bee locations in South Dakota and they report a 55 gallon of honey from every pallet of four hives in most years! At times Brad has an over abundance of queens & cells. other times only enough for his commercial operation and his growing circle of friends. When you winter in Texas or Florida queens & cells are usually available. Especially cells. None of these commercial beeks advertise. Every morning in places beeks winter the beeks meet at various restaurants. At nights at the local watering holes! Extra queens & cells are usually available. Also I would say Murray has a rather large queen rearing operation as compared to most U.S. commercial beeks as most prefer to buy cells and queens. > I would say just persist with the bees you like, no matter what the > morphometry says. Its all a bit nazi to me, perfectly good bees rejected > because their wing venation is not as desired. I am a perfectly happy > local strain/mongrels owner. I consider most commercial queen producers bees in the U.S. to be mongrel . beeks which have worked for a few have said dark queens go in a carniolan queen cage and light queens go in an Italian queen cage. In Texas we buy queens which we call "striper" queens. Very unusual markings. The commercial beek (which does not advertise) uses a deliberate cross between NWC & Italians. Excellent bees those queens produce. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 19:19:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: FW: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In Texas during spring many beeks raise & sell queens/cells. Most of us > prefer cells due to the lower cost and time is not an issue as it will be > a couple months before the hives will be shipped north. Later in the > spring mated queens are preferred. Bob, I know we have discussed this before, but am not sure we ever reached a consensus. Personally, I figure that there is very little difference in timing or acceptance between mated queens and ripe cells. It is maybe a matter of a few days in the first matter, assuming ripe cells are used, and assuming that the queens are not direct into'd, (which some brave and capable beekeepers do if conditions are right), and a few percent in the second matter -- if the cells are good and checked in advance. I figure the cells have an advantage in that the queen emerges and is mated in the hive without introduction and travel stress. Moreover, most production yards have lots of drones, but we always wonder about the drone supply at the breeders' yards. What is your experience and your thoughts? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/nutrition2.htm --- It is not every question that deserves an answer. Publilius Syrus (~100 BC), Maxims **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 19:33:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Comparing Pollen Patties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Interestingly, even after trying many different highly rated products, >> the original simple yeast/soy/sugar/pollen formula has proven the most >> popular and enduring product by far. There may be better formulas out >> there, but as far as bang for the buck is concerned, this seems to be the >> beekeepers' choice. I might add that the formula resulted from our conclusions long discussions here on BEE-L and input from many list members. I am amazed at its success. I know it really helped us and made wintering a much less variable proposition since feeding patties in spring seemed to -- somehow -- give the bees a health advantage that lasted all season. >Way back when there was a discussion on feeding patties from a feeding >station instead of directly in the hive. Any new or old thoughts about >that? I can't recall such discussion, but it seems unlikely to me that bees would reliably collect chunks of patty from outside the hive, but we did have reports that bees will gather wax on occasion, so I have to say simply that I do not know. I do know that BeePro and other dust mixtures are fed successfully from feeders in spring and are about the only way to keep bees out of cattle and other livestock feeder and bins. That does remind me, though that I have heard reports that California beekeepers are feeding Global's patties _on the bottom board_ in warm weather with good success. I would never have believed that, since I always advocate having the patties within two inches of brood, but apparently it is true. Can anyone corroborate this? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/pollenpatties.htm --- The most erroneous stories are those we think we know best - and therefore never scrutinize or question. -- Stephen Jay Gould (1941 - 2002) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 04:16:36 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Personal Attacks In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8;format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In message , J. Waggle writes > Anytime you are >examining the person and not the issues, that is a personal attack. Shades of grey area this. If a person is a prominent advancer of a particular idea, one which is controversial in any way, you can expect their name to be mentioned many times in a variety of postings ranging from the cold, to the warm, to the downright hot. Yet most times they are examining the issues, not attacking the person as such. If its Fred Blogg's assertion that such a thing is a fact we would all benefit from, and many disagree, I would expect to see 'Fred' crop up all the time. Its not as if anyone is calling Fred fat, or ugly, or a soap dodger, just questioning his ideas. >Perhaps, a requirement for credentials could be left out altogether. With >or without credentials, wouldn’t you expect the issue being discussed to >stand up to scrutiny? > Sorry for apparently bringing small cell into it a gain, but REALLY, in this case its a coincidence and an example of why credentials really DO count. Just today I was doing a bit of a search about varroa on the Big Island of Hawaii. I was wondering how far it had spread and whether it might compromise me getting a renewal on my (unused for a few seasons now) import license for Kona carniolans. I came across a local (Hilo) discussion board from the very start of the incident. As early as only the 7th post a mainland small celler found it and started spreading the gospel on how the islands bees could be saved. Immediate change to small cell, no treatment for any colonies, and he had had a briefing from, or consultation with (not specifically about Hawaii), the prime figure in the movement. He was even talking of travelling over there to meet them and show them how it was done. He had made a success of small cell and thought Hawaii could too. Now this may or may not be true, but turns out this guy, who may indeed be a perfectly good beekeeper as I dont know who he is, went on to reveal he had been out of bees since tracheal mites hit the US, had restarted with two colonies in 2006 and added more in 2007 and now had 15 colonies. Credentials don't count? I can imagine this guy turning up in Gus Rowse's office to spread the word, and the reception it might get. -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 08:40:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Credence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-13 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe Waggle recently spoke of the importance of trust but later derided the notion of credentials. How one can there be one without the other? credence 1. Acceptance as true or valid; belief. 2. Claim to acceptance; trustworthiness. 3. Recommendation; credentials: a letter of credence. from Latin crçdere, to believe and this, from Wikipedia: > Sometimes general life experience can be regarded as a credential. For example, when prospective authors submit examples of their writing (such as a book) to publishers, they may be asked to present credentials or other proof that their book has benefited from their life experience (for example a person writing a fiction story about a future civilisation may be helped during the selection process if they tell the publisher that they regularly write for futurology journals) [ futurolgy? Guess I'll have to look into that. Later ] **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 09:36:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: Comparing Pollen Patties Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >That does remind me, though that I have heard reports that California >beekeepers are feeding Global's patties _on the bottom board_ in warm >weather with good success. This sounds reasonable as long as the colonies are not weak. In a strong hive in summer, nurse bees will walk much farther than a few inches to get pollen. Consider a brood nest in three deeps with only a bottom entrance -- most of the pollen will be in the bottom box yet it does get eaten. IMO, the factors affecting in-hive feeding include (a) the right bees have to find the feed, (b) the route has to be warm enough, and (c) it has to seem worth the effort (to the bee). To the extent we can reduce the amount of time the nurse bees spend walking, we presumably increase colony efficiency. For colonies with brood in two boxes, I've found it most effective to put patties between the two boxes. When putting patties on the top bars, it helps to have insulated covers (at least in cool weather) and it also helps if the brood comes all the way up to those top bars. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:12:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Bee Pollen could be the answer to World Hunger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I found this amazing article on bee pollen which contain so many benefits I simply cannot imagine not wanting to eat it three times a day: Karl von Frisch won the Nobel Prize in 1973 with his study of the honeybee dance. The honeybee by instinct and nature goes to and collects only the most nutritive and healthy pollens. The bee can only work with what it has, and many of the world's pollens are now inferior in quality because of pervasive pollution and depletion of the soils. The Bee Pollen used by EarthKeepers is the most potent pollen in the world, from the oldest mountains on earth. The Russian biologist and experimental botanist, Nicolai Tsitsin, discovered that Bee Pollen has the ability to promote youthful feelings, build resistance to ailments, help boost healing powers and provide dynamic energy. He said, "There are more than 200 people living in the Soviet Union who claim to be over 100 years old. We sent letters to them to answer three questions, 150 out of the 200 replied. All of them, without exception, said that their principal food always had been honey." Tsitisin explained that it wasn't the honey they were eating, but almost pure pollen, which had fallen off the bee's legs while they deposit their honey. It has been demonstrated those who use pure Bee Pollen experience increased sexual vitality. The natural hormones contained within this rare pollen cause increased hormonal production. Dr. Remy Chauvin, of the Institute for Bee Culture in Bures-sur-Yvett, France, reported to the French Academy of Medicine in 1956, the use of Bee Pollen gave animals increased vitality and improved powers of reproduction. Dr. Chauvin gave Bee Pollen to a test group composed of young people, mature adults and the elderly, and reported the following: * Clinical tests showed improved bowel function, relief from constipation and flatulence. * Anemic children showed a rapid increase in red blood cells. * A natural antibiotic function is associated with Bee Pollen. * Bee Pollen has the ability to destroy unwanted microbes in the body. * A natural antibiotic cleansing occurred in the internalorgans. Bee Pollen contains folic acid along with an impressive vitamin array, which cannot be artificially duplicated. Not only does Bee Pollen contain a complete complement of nutrients, its glucoside content helps to transport nutrients into the bloodstream. Bee Pollen cannot be reproduced in the laboratory. Its chemical makeup is so complex that synthesizing it artificially has eluded even the best modern-day technology. Bee Pollen is so impressive that it contains many nutrients not found in animal products. Linoleic acid is the only fatty acid essential for human nutrition that cannot be manufactured by the human body. Bee Pollen contains linoleic acid in relative abundance. A chemical analysis of Bee Pollen reveals it contains every nutrient required to sustain life. Bee Pollen is so impressive in its nutrient array that some experts believe it could be the answer to World Hunger. Bee Pollen contains an unbelievable concentration of vital elements and seems to be the most complete food found in nature. French Agricultarist Professor Alin Callas has stated that "A person could literally live on 35grams of Bee Pollen er day, satisfying all the human body's nutritional requirements." Due to the high quality of nutrition contained within Bee Pollen, we are assured it slows down the effects of the aging process. http://www.earthkeepers.net/horse/herbalProducts.html **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 11:05:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DAVID ADAMS Subject: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: When you winter in Texas or Florida queens & cells are usually available. Especially cells. None of these commercial beeks advertise. Hey Bob, Where are all those commercial beeks at? I'm in central Florida and all the guys I know buy cells from one of only three places that raise cells. I would love to go back to raising my own cells ,but just can't find time to do it and run bees right. Most all the "highrollers" around this area all the way down to Fort Myers buys cells,(and the guys advertise) from which they are bought. There is a couple of guys that raise there cells but when you need a large amount at a set time you need to know you'll get them when you need them **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 12:15:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Bee Pollen could be the answer to World Hunger Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter submits: "I found this amazing article on bee pollen which contain so many benefits I simply cannot imagine not wanting to eat it three times a day:" (link follows) OK, now we're in the realm of pure advertising. I've heard that if you wash it down with a little snake oil you will live forever, but you have to have taken it every day from early childhood. Long term studies are pending. I just can't wait for the results. Sorry I have no references and my credentials are not applicable. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:31:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Credence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="ISO-8859-13"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Joe Waggle recently spoke of the importance of trust but later derided the > notion of credentials. At risk of beating this subject to death, I have to suggest that 'derided' may not be the right word. de·ride Pronunciation: \di-?rîd, dç-\ Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): de·rid·ed; de·rid·ing Etymology: Latin deridçre, from de- + ridçre to laugh Date: circa 1526 1 : to laugh at contemptuously 2 : to subject to usually bitter or contemptuous ridicule Joe said > IMO, The value of what a person has to say, should not always depend upon > credentials. How many on the list have a collage degree in anything > related to honeybees? and > IMO, Bee-L is blessed to have a wide variety of members with different > backgrounds, this is an asset, and should not be limited by the exclusion > of those not having what is perceived to be ?credentials?. and > Perhaps, a requirement for credentials could be left out altogether. With > or without credentials, wouldn˙t you expect the issue being discussed to > stand up to scrutiny? As I see it, that was not derision, but an honest argument for detaching the ideas from specific persons and suggesting that we not address or examine the credentials of those advancing theories on the list I. of course, do not agree that the matter is so simple. In fact, I totally -- but respectfully -- disagree. We talk about Einstein's General Theory of Relativity We talk about Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle We talk about Lusby's Small Cell Theory The names and personalities are inextricably linked with the theories (and they all are theories). Some think Einstein was wrong, or only partially correct, and when they discuss his ideas, it is always with his name and credentials in mind as well as how he arrived at his conclusions. His life story is of great interest. I am uncertain about Heisenberg , but his name is always mentioned And I am convinced that Lusby is wrong about Small Cell, or "Smallcell", if you prefer, but because her life story and activities are part and parcel of this influential theory, her name and personal experience is of interest as well. If I were to publish a theory, I would expect constant scrutiny as well. Moreover, I am not offended if someone challenges my experience and my right to make a statement. It keeps me thinking. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/feedqueens.htm --- I happen to feel that the degree of a person's intelligence is directly reflected by the number of conflicting attitudes she can bring to bear on the same topic. -- Lisa Alther, Kinflicks, 1975 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 12:06:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Comparing Pollen Patties In-Reply-To: <21DB4A6AE1B04172A93159C12CB30095@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >That does remind me, though that I have heard reports that California > beekeepers are feeding Global's patties _on the bottom board_ in warm > weather with good success. Yes, can corroborate. Several beekeepers are reporting good results, with various patty formulas. I haven't tried personally, since I have screened bottoms, and fear ant problems. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:54:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Credence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit allen wrote: >> Joe Waggle recently spoke of the importance of trust but later derided the notion of credentials. > >At risk of beating this subject to death, I have to suggest that 'derided' may not be the right word. Quite right. Dismissed would be better. Credibility is crucial; even Joe W. will agree to this. In order for a relationship of trust to develop, one has to establish credibility in the other. Of course, credentials do not automatically do this, nor does the lack of them. But, for example, Dee L. is always going on about being a commercial beekeeper of many decades experience. Why does she do this? Because it lends credence to her statements, of course. Alas, a picture is worth a thousand words; so much more so, video. Seeing the videos that Dean S. shot in Arizona pretty much sent it up in smoke for observant beekeepers. Seeing is believing (or not, as the case may be). pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 23:36:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Bee Pollen could be the answer to World Hunger In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "A person could literally live on 35grams of Bee Pollen er day, satisfying all the human body's nutritional requirements." My hives collect around 100 gr of pollen per day, during late spring and middle summer, lets say 3 months per year. Therefore I will need 4 hives to collect my yearly requirement, without killing the colonies. If that is a common average around the world, we will need some 6.000.000.000 x 4 = 24.000.000.000 hives to feed the world with the best protein source around. How far are we from that figure? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 21:20:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Comparing Pollen Patties In-Reply-To: <21DB4A6AE1B04172A93159C12CB30095@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Placement of pollen patties from my experience depends on: The state of colony. Period in colony season. Strength of colony. % of pollen content. Quantity of honey present in box when in double configuration. If the colony is Queenless: position changes little regarding the rate at which the material is consumed - relatively slow/ total disregard. Before a natural spring shedding of pollen, a one pound patty will be munched away over several days. Onset of supply of natural material may seriously slow down or effectively halt consumption. As ever, there are colony examples where this is not the case - they continue as if no natural supply is available! Where queens are laying in expansion stage and in a period of inclement weather (Climate) - the bees will make quick service of a one pound affair. Weak colonies in too roomy containers usually tackle the patty as if it is a real chore - a bit, maybe, just to show willing or ignore totally. The higher the pollen content - the more vigour shown in consumption. Full boxes of honey reserves extend period of time over which the patty disappears - unless it is placed in between the boxes (i.e. between the top bars of the lower box and below the bottoms of the upper box.). Perforated paper covering enables the bees to start on the patty from all quarters - an advantage when rapid consumption is required. Global have given good advice regarding storage, content of patty and delivered when required. Dry powder delivery in open barrels appears to be very attractive on good flying days during early spring - until natural pollen appears on the scene. After which there is a definite reduction in forager numbers. Actual proof that patties deliver what increase in bee longitivity - can only say that colonies during spring build up with a healthy vigour. This fall, some splits were done a little too late. Combined with a poor nectar /pollen flow they did not get to a stage where they are expected to survive. Lack of winter bees. They were supplied with ample sucrose feed and patty material but did not develop. The above was my experience formally in Manitoba, now on PEI, Canada. Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 21:30:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Queen cells and candling In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having used Queen cells as a source of required queens in the past and suffered from lack of mated individuals, I wonder what causes the loss to occur. Age of cell. Transport conditions. Cell rejection. Emerged queen rejection. Failure to mate. Non return to home colony are factors to take into account. Some cases show that a queen never emerges - and when opened, a stunted object is present. Presuming that the pupa was dead on insertion into the colony, I wonder if queen cell providers routinely try to ensure that cells are viable at point of delivery by candling the cells. Any comment? Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 02:35:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Nice Honey site Comments: To: honey_australia@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.benefits-of-honey.com/index.html -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:19:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Comparing Pollen Patties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree, Peter. > If the colony is Queenless: position changes little regarding the rate at > which the material is consumed - relatively slow/ total disregard. This is one of the huge advantages of patty feeding. If patties are placed on hives in an early quick round, on a subsequent visit, deciding which colonies are fine and which need work is simple. That means there is no need to disturb the good colonies, but attention can be focused on those which have not consumed patties. The savings in labour and colony disturbance alone pay for the patties. Plus, the bees do better -- the ones that ate them, at least. > Before a natural spring shedding of pollen, a one pound patty will be > munched away over several days. Onset of supply of natural material may > seriously slow down or effectively halt consumption. As ever, there are > colony examples where this is not the case - they continue as if no > natural supply is available! I have never noticed any reluctance to consume patties right through to the end of June. Each area and operator is different. I suspect that they would be eaten in July and August some places, and the idea of feeding in the entrance makes this potentially feasible. > Where queens are laying in expansion stage and in a period of inclement > weather (Climate) - the bees will make quick service of a one pound > affair. Too fast. Most people simply do not pile enough on to ensure the bees never run short. Running short can result in brood cannibalization. > The higher the pollen content - the more vigour shown in consumption. Yup. The downside is that if you have fast consumption and don't get back in time, the bees are sitting waiting -- and eating their brood. Why won't beekeepers acknowledge and deal with this fact? Fast consumption is NOT a good thing -- if food supply is not continuous. Feed often and feed lots, or use slower consumption patties. > Dry powder delivery in open barrels appears to be very attractive on good > flying days during early spring - until natural pollen appears on the > scene. After which there is a definite reduction in forager numbers. Yes. Drums on their sides, and used as shelters, I assume? > Actual proof that patties deliver what increase in bee longitivity - can > only say that colonies during spring build up with a healthy vigour. Hard to prove such things. Several years of improved success is an indicator, but not rigorous proof. > This fall, some splits were done a little too late. Combined with a poor > nectar /pollen flow they did not get to a stage where they are expected to > survive. Lack of winter bees. They were supplied with ample sucrose feed > and patty material but did not develop. In Canada, splits after July 31st are just a matter of luck. One year I was very lucky and so went whole-hog the next year. I got slapped -- 50% losses on those splits! Never again. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/spring/unwrap.htm --- I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it. Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826), (attributed **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 05:12:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Honey price Comments: To: honey_australia@yahoogroups.com, lapisada@gruposyahoo.com.ar Comments: cc: Rodolfo Klaassen , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gerardo_L=FCckeheide?= , Waldo Gonzalez MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A new report from Skamberg http://www.skamberg.com/honey.htm (Highlights are mine) *November 2008* A good US raw honey crop has helped the world raw honey supply a bit, but the demand is still high for honey. The Canadian raw honey crop is comparable to last year, which was well below average. Brazil is just starting to sell honey into the world market and India will be getting some honey into the market very soon. This too should help on the supply side, but somewhere down the road it is believed that demand is going to have to drop to equalize the supply or allow supply to overtake the demand. At that time prices will most likely soften. We are not at that point yet. We are probably several months to a year away from that, so some would argue that raw honey prices have not yet peaked. What we have seen though, is that as new crop honey enters the market, it tends to be offered at a lower price than what has been typical, but prices quickly firm up and start to rise as demand warrants. This is a slightly different trend than what we have seen in the past, where prices start high and then are reduced when buying stalls. If this trend continues, this could help to stabilize prices down the road. The Argentina drought is still a concern, although they have had some beneficial rains recently. It is still too early to get a good prediction of that crop. The bottom line feeling is that raw honey prices are still trending higher, though not as dramatically as we have seen since last February. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:35:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK. I've been away, but have had a chance to look at the videos that were recommended to me. I don't know if the URLs were posted to BEE-L. If they were my search did not turn them up, so here they are. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5106409524033235587 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6129663215037522414 They are long, low res and unedited -- apparently, so for those who are short of spare time, I recommend going to about 3/4ths to 7/8ths through the second one. That's where it gets good. Priceless, actually. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2000/diary031500.htm#Spring%20Checking,%20Feeding%20&%20Unwrapping: --- It is nobler to declare oneself wrong than to insist on being right - especially when one is right. -- Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900), Thus Spoke Zarathustra **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:15:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Thanks To All "Bee Trivia" Buffs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to everyone who sent obscure bee facts and also to those who sent what I suspect might have been a few pieces of very creative "bee fiction". Joanne is getting much better, and well on her way to being back to 100%, with no apparent permanent artifacts from her injury. Best of all, she is well enough to travel, so she will not miss our traditional Thanksgiving week in the Caribbean. (Neatly avoiding any argument over which parents to visit by fleeing the jurisdiction for the duration, starting tomorrow, dawn patrol.) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 01:05:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Queen cells and candling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Presuming that the pupa was dead on insertion into the colony, I wonder if > queen cell providers routinely try to ensure that cells are viable at > point of delivery by candling the cells. In our own case, we found that our own cells or cells from nearby neighbours typically did well, but cells purchased from a distance, even if they looked OK on arrival, were less successful. We usually raised our own cells, but we did buy some on occasion and bought a very large number one time. The temperature and transport conditions (personal delivery in coolers) in that last case were controlled within acceptable limits and monitored by hi/lo thermometers, but the success rate was not what we might have wished. We bought a smaller number twice from 500 miles away which were delivered by a bus ride taking 24 hours, and found that they were less successful than we would have liked, but they did get cooled a bit by arrival. See the link below which searches various diary notes on our experiences with cells and comments, if you like. Some claim that cooling cells is not a problem, within a range and at later stages near emergence, but just slows development. , For that matter, cells often find it a little cooler than we might think, at night in mating nucs, and they turn out OK. Some beekeepers apparently even delay and control emergence deliberately by manipulating temperature. However that is not a particularly good thing IMO and just adds to a list of things that might go wrong along the way. On the other hand, even what might seem to be slight overheating quickly becomes deadly. One thing we did regularly to monitor quality and condition was to carefully twist open mature cells to take a glance at the queen. When using JayZee BeeZee cell cups, which everyone was doing, the process was easy, as was pressing them back together. If done right, and when the pupae were known to be in their less fragile states, the queens were unaffected by the inspection. We also got a good look at how much excess royal jelly was left in the cup when looking at queens near emergence. We seldom found that there was nearly as much in purchased cells as we considered optimal in our own, and often, none! That examination can be done with natural or wax cell cups, too, but the shear line is less pronounced and more care required. Of course, candling is fast and easy and less likely to do harm. Your question and associated ones have been discussed on the list previously, but I am not sure the questions were ever fully answered here. An archive search might turn up some useful discussions. There are several experienced beekeepers posting recently here who have had more extensive experience than I with cells, and who might be willing to add to this, and correct me or add where appropriate. allen http://tinyurl.com/58n5sm --- Whenever a man does a thoroughly stupid thing, it is always from the noblest motives. Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900), The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 06:50:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen Dick: > Moreover, her "bounce back" was more of a 'creep back" and was accomplish= ed over a long period, with great cost, > Reply: I keep getting many emails on this one sentence by Allen Dick, But realize = he was gone awhile from the list here. I am being told to clarify the time = frame so this is what I am doing pertaining to the recent CCD loss I had an= d have moved on from. It occurred Sep 2007 with Dr Loper taking samples Oct= 2007. Dr Loper came back out 29 Oct 2008 and went thru colonies again with= me and saw no further problems, and infact helped me take a barrel of hone= y to extract. . Prior to this Dean and Ramona came out in April 2008 to learn handsm on h= ow to do walk away splits from strong colonies, and to workup colonies for = spring management. t =A0Old eqjuip from the 7 CCD yards was reused, with nothing done to it. Jus= t splits from strong colonies surviving merely put back into it with conten= ts of bees, brood, and stores.. Nothing hard. Weak colonies had left to die= and/or live, and strong surviving I went on with that made it thru. Saw no= sema NO PROBLEM as identified by Dr Bromenshenk,...... and by the way with = recent discussion here saying DeLaplane had found both types of nosema in m= ost all samples looked at for nosema now, taken years ago, I went into my f= iles and found even older samples taken,..... that if still avail..... labs= and Dr Bromenshenk might want to look at more also, to see how far back bo= th kinds of nosema can be found. =A0Oldest samples I have found Id for nosema were in 1959 at Beltsville, Md= , looking at samples from all around the USA from bee colonies kept in the = USA, that for some reason showed origin of bees also from Australia! Total = samples of bees analyed for problems was 214 accessions for diagnosis in th= e period July-Sept 1959 and GET THIS.............of the troubled samples se= nt in for analysis for problems of AFB, EFB, Para, Sac, Nosema, Sept, Insec= ticide poisoning andn Acarine, etc, .................the ones from Austrail= a were nosema SPECIFIC with 17 positive of 23 samples looked at from the be= es/hvies.............so question in my mind: What they doing in USA? but th= en also know research back then traded around so...........perhaps no big d= eal. But other states in USA then showing POSITIVE=A0 samples for Nosema th= at also included the other maladies from same samples and showing positive = for AFB, EFB, para, Sac, Sept, Acarine, insective poisoning were: Maryland, New York, North Carolina with the states checking and showing ne= gative for nosema: Arizona, Louisiana, Montana, New Jersey, New Mexico, Uta= h, Wyoming..........oddly all these places in my mind have research or had = research labs. So Dr Delaplane needs perhaps to go back to these old sample= s too to look at to see how early both nosema varities are to be found in o= ur USA. But getting back to what Allen Dick said for creep back over a logn period.= ...........this was just not true, but was last fall in 2007 with turn arou= nd in spring aleady with splits being made with coincides with old recommen= dede ways of dealing with nosema, except I did not use treatments as don't = beleive in then, nor artifricial feeds but instead used live and let die an= d breed from the strong and let the weak go.and also for the record each ya= rd has made a barrel of honey and some more!! immediate year following. So what Allen is thinking of what I was doing in 1980s and 1990s certainly = needs to be updated in his thoughts. But knowing how he was gone, see no re= al problem for he was out of the loop and until someone explains more the t= ime frame he is just responding as he is aware. .....though not current, bu= t hopefully this will update the matter and also with recent discussions he= re give others reading a chance now to go back further officiall looking at= nosema to see how long both types have actually in in USA and being in USA= knowing that Canada and Austrailia interchange, perhaps records should als= o now be looked at in Canada deeper for knowing also!=20 Now, let me say, I can dig deeper into my files should it be wanted with mo= re for discussion. respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby=20 =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:06:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad In-Reply-To: <1631157334.752251227456306082.JavaMail.root@md06.embarq.synacor.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter, David, Allen & All, > Where are all those commercial beeks at? Ask Jerry Hayes as Jerry usually ( not always) knows the area of large beeks overwintering in Florida and their location. May even provide a cell number. I do not winter in Florida but have considered it. I have spent time (4-5 weeks) each winter in Georgia/Florida for years. Many out of states beeks come south to winter and make splits using cells they produce. Cells are so easy to produce I am surprised a market for cells even exists. We use the best and toss the rest . The general rule for beeks wintering in the south is the interstate 20 line. Bees winter good south of I 20 in Georgia or I 20 in Texas. Yet some in Florida want to go all the way to Fort Meyers. Going as far south as Fort Meyers might help as far as getting hives ready for almonds but basically anyplace south of I 20 will winter bees. Fort Meyers does not make sense to me for beeks from the Midwest as hives (other than those needed for apple pollination) need not be back before April in Missouri and maybe even May in the Dakotas. My good friend Dann Purvis winters in south Georgia and sells cells. He does advertise but can provide all the cells you need if given notice. Reg Wilbanks used to sell early cells. Both these guys are only a few hours drive from central Florida. If getting a large amount I would pick up and transport myself. Texas: Commercial beeks in large numbers winter mostly from around Paris, Texas all the way to the coast with the largest concentrations in my opinion between Carthage and jasper. When we raise cells in Texas we use the jenter system and need around 6-10 systems. My eyes (as well as my partners ) are not the best so we have dropped grafting except for the eggs the queen lays between the cups. The problem with the jenter system is you need the comb cell box drawn before using to raise queens. A mistake often made by first time cell raisers trying to raise cells on new plastic with the cells undrawn. Also cups need cleaned before reuse by the bees or you can simply use new cups (which is what we do if in a hurry). Timing is the key to success plus prolific queens when caged and super strong cell builder and cell finisher colonies. if a strong flow is not on then you need to provide excellent nutrition for all parts of the operation. The only queen rearing system I have use (other than grafting) has been the jenter. Others will need to comment on the Mann lake system which is advertised to raise I think four times as many cells as the jenter. > I would love to go back to raising my own cells ,but just can't find time > to do it and run bees right. I think because cells are so cheap most would rather simply buy cells. Would you find the time to raise cells if cells were around ten bucks a cell? Cells can be pricey if cells are not viable ( 50% is not uncommon) or poorly raised and the queens are dinks and soon superceded. > There is a couple of guys that raise there cells but when you need a > large amount at a set time you need to know you'll get them when you need > them Cell raisers usually start about twice as many as ordered so when you get 90% raised (happens at times ) then you look for a place to sell those cells as if not sold or used most are tossed. Cell use 101 for commercial beeks: 1. order cells but far more than you need. 125% ? 150%? if candling. 2. Pick up cells from cell raiser soon after sealed and transport in a Styrofoam heated incubator if possible (12 volt to truck cigar lighter) to your location. Use wet sponge for humidity. 3. at your location have a G.O.F. egg incubator (used $125- 250 but can be homemade as all the parts can be purchased from the maker) set and ready for the cells ( takes usually 48 hours to get temp & humidity correct) On mine I use the timer which turns the heat off and on with a single degree of accuracy . I used to hatch exotic bird eggs for my self and others and found the better timer worth the money over the wafer type. 4. carefully place the cells in the incubator. You should have around 3 days to make your splits ready. You obviously can leave the cells in the cell finisher but using an incubator makes raising a large number of cells faster. 4.a Havoc will happen if you get queens hatching the the incubator. If happens catch and cage the virgins and place in queen cages and release after a few hours. simply releasing right away does not produce the best takes in my opinion but others may have had better results. 5. Place the cells in the nucs after dark the day before emergence and candle each cell. Toss cells which queens show no movement when candled . If you candle night is the time to candle fast. 6. Important: Do not move the nucs for at least two weeks for best take or until queen is laying solid patterns. It is my opinion bees will blame the move on the new queen and supercede her until they have totally accepted her. Others may disagree or perhaps disagree with everything I have said. If others on the list use a better method please post as I am here to learn also. Also the longer the time the queen is in the hive laying before shipping north seems to help take. I have seen 3 out of four hives on a pallet queenless when back in the north when moved to quickly when using cells. Using mated queens hives can in my opinion can be moved sooner with success. Rarely is the take better using cells than with mated queens but using cells is certainly cheaper. We have done everything right and still at times end up with less than a 25% take using cells. Certainly something was not right but whatever the problem was it was not obvious to us. hope the above helps! Sincerely, Bob Harrison **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:10:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Thanks To All "Bee Trivia" Buffs In-Reply-To: <006001c94df3$ac5a98e0$0501000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bee trivia: All the hives in the U.S. could be wintered on a single property in the U.S. owned by one family. The King Ranch in Kingsville, Texas owns property larger than the state of Rhode island. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:37:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I keep getting many emails on this one sentence by Allen Dick, But realize > he was gone awhile from the list here. I am being told to clarify the time > frame Thanks, Dee. Nice to see a complete essay. > Old eqjuip from the 7 CCD yards was reused, with nothing done to it. I have heard conflicting reports. Was it really CCD? If so, then your comments, above, seem to conflict with one of the defining criteria for identifying bona fide CCD. > Saw nosema NO PROBLEM as identified by Dr Bromenshenk, Dr. Fischer reported a different version of the story here recently and that a treatment was used if I understand him correctly. Can you address that? > and by the way with recent discussion here saying DeLaplane had found both > types of nosema in most all samples looked at for nosema now, taken years > ago, Yes, the nosema story is starting to look a lot like the varroa jacobsoni/destructor oversight. > Oldest samples I have found Id for nosema were in 1959 at Beltsville, Md, > looking at samples from all around the USA from bee colonies kept in the > USA, that for some reason showed origin of bees also from Australia! That is interesting, I wonder how they were able to establish that in a period previous to current DNA methods, or is this recent work? (Citations please). > ...the ones from Austraila were nosema SPECIFIC with 17 positive of 23 > samples looked at from the bees/hvies.............so question in my mind: > What they doing in USA? Maybe some samples were sent over from Oz, and not taken from US bees? > ... other states in USA then showing POSITIVE samples for Nosema that also > included the other maladies from same samples and showing positive for > AFB, EFB, para, Sac, Sept, Acarine, insective poisoning were... Positive for acarine in 1959? Citations please. > ... except I did not use treatments as don't beleive in then, nor > artifricial feeds but instead used live and let die and breed from the > strong and let the weak go.and also for the record each yard has made a > barrel of honey and some more!! immediate year following. OK. I have already asked about the conflicting information received via the list and also backchannels. I'm sure you will clarify. You mention no stats on how many were originally standing and when, how many died and when, How many splits were made and when, and when the recovery was complete and count was made, what the numbers were. I know commercial beekeepers keep detailed notes, so I'm trusting you can give us numbers. For the record. A barrel of honey from 60 hives is not much, but maybe the yard is only ten hives? Seems to me that your yards are much larger than that, though. > So what Allen is thinking of what I was doing in 1980s and 1990s certainly > needs to be updated in his thoughts. But knowing how he was gone, see no > real problem for he was out of the loop and until someone explains more > the time frame he is just responding as he is aware. .....though not > current, but hopefully this will update the matter and also with recent > discussions here give others reading a chance now to go Thanks for taking the time to write this out clearly. I look forward to details that will help me understand this in real terms. I was thinking of the earlier period. However, let me add that my understanding is that recovering numbers in the south is not hard if no honey is to be produced. In the north, successfully splitting up to 16 from one has been well-documented and in a short season area. So please explain why recovering numbers as reported is so remarkable? I must be missing something. > ...back further officiall looking at nosema to see how long both types > have actually in in USA and being in USA knowing that Canada and > Austrailia interchange, perhaps records should also now be looked at in > Canada deeper for knowing also! I don't recall when we started getting Australian stock. Seems it was in the seventies, since that is when we got chalkbrood, and I seem to recall that was where we figured it came from. > Now, let me say, I can dig deeper into my files should it be wanted with > more for discussion. Dig away. If you can answer my specific questions above, that would be much appreciated. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/oxalic_drip.htm --- I have long since come to believe that people never mean half of what they say, and that it is best to disregard their talk and judge only their actions. -- Dorothy Day (1897 - 1980), The Long Loneliness, 1952 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:19:55 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: <290530.38972.qm@web51608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, >>>does anyone else (besides dee) have a "bounce back" story from ccd (repopulating deadout equipment from survivors without fumigating or treating, and getting a good honey crop the same year...in the desert)? >>> >>Moreover, her "bounce back" was more of a 'creep back" and was accomplished over a long period, with great cost, >> > But getting back to what Allen Dick said for creep back over a logn period............this was just not true, but was last fall in 2007 > Thanks Dee, for setting the record straight here on list, so it seems I was not off in my remembrance of events in my thoughts of this statement being off base. I made no assertions to no one. Glad you clarified this for those reading here and maybe thinking the statement was true in regards to the reply from a member on BEE-L to Dean's remarks of your quick bounce back recently. Let me also say that I regret and am sorry it all played out later as it did. God Bless and Happy Thanksgiving to all, Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska klm@gci.net **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:57:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Mated Queens vs. Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Cells can be pricey if cells are not viable ( 50% is not uncommon) or > poorly raised and the queens are dinks and soon superceded. Yes, I have found that even people with very good reputations have lower standards than we would have expected, judging by results and by the amount of royal jelly left in the cups. > Cell raisers usually start about twice as many as ordered so when you get > 90% raised (happens at times ) then you look for a place to sell those > cells as if not sold or used most are tossed. You have to do that, but many cannot bear to throw away good cells if too many develop. Some cull the smallest, and most of us just use two per colony or nuc until the extras are gone. > Cell use 101 for commercial beeks: Great article. Thanks. > Do not move the nucs for at least two weeks for best take or until queen > is laying solid patterns. It is my opinion bees will blame the move on the > new queen and supercede her until they have totally accepted her. ...Also > the longer the time the queen is in the hive laying before shipping north > seems to help take. Worth noting. Moving bees can be hard on queens at the best of times. > Using mated queens, hives can in my opinion can be moved sooner with > success. Point noted. > Rarely is the take better using cells than with mated queens but using > cells is certainly cheaper. We have done everything right and still at > times end up with less than a 25% take using cells. Certainly something > was not right but whatever the problem was it was not obvious to us. That is low. Seldom do you see acceptance that low a take with mated queens, but fairly prompt supercedure of mated queens has been widely noted. I suppose that there is continuity during supercedure, but the original queen is lost. Also, when supercedure is underway, the virgin may get lost if moving is timed wrong. I was hoping to get your comments on the differences in time from splitting to full laying between cells and mated queens. Have you any numbers? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/cor.htm --- Don't be too timid and squeamish about your actions. All life is an experiment. The more experiments you make the better. --- Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803 - 1882) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:37:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >does anyone else (besides dee) have a "bounce back" story from ccd > >(repopulating deadout equipment from survivors without fumigating or > >treating, and getting a good honey crop the same year...in the desert)? > Thanks Dee, for setting the record straight here on list, so it seems Not so fast. We are still waiting for the details. 1.) We think we heard (on good authority) that the bees were treated, 2.) We do not know the magnitude of the 'bounceback', 3.) Some of us don't think a drum of honey per yard is 'a good honey crop', and 4.) one of the criteria of CCD is that bees will not thrive in the equipment until some considerable time after the loss. Other than that... allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/pkgnucs.htm --- I always admired atheists. I think it takes a lot of faith. -- Diane Frolov and Andrew Schneider, Northern Exposure, Seoul Mates, 1991 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:12:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: <8AE8A7E6EAB349C2947D23AE770AED34@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen, Dee & All, I thought Allen was referring to the early days of rebuilding the outfit going from large cell to small cell also. The well documented return to a large number of hives on small cell was certainly a long process with little monetary returns from where I sit. I do feel compelled to comment on nosema because I think maybe Dee might not fully understand how quickly nosema ceranae can wipe out an operation. >> Saw nosema NO PROBLEM as identified by Dr Bromenshenk, Do you mean spore counts were less than a million per bee? Were both nosema ceranae & nosema apis present in samples? >> Oldest samples I have found Id for nosema were in 1959 at Beltsville, Md, >> looking at samples from all around the USA I have been searching myself and so far nosema ceranae dates to around 2000 ( maybe farther but not confirmed by the USDA-ARS to me). I would say most likely the 1959 date was for nosema apis. As far as nosema apis goes it was always the silent killer. Adult bees heavily infected died in the last two weeks of life which for me meant I needed to control nosema to get a large honey crop and heavily infected bees winter poorly. I always tested and controlled nosema apis in my hives and thought fumidil use payed dividends rather than cost money. Then nosema ceranae poped up its ugly head and has cost beeks millions in lost hives and production. Never given its proper due concerning the role it played in CCD in my opinion. I lost most of two yards this fall to nosema ceranae by reusing boxes not treated with acetic acid. Live and learn. I do believe that nosema ceranae has been around long enough that some hives can tolerate a spore level which will kill another hive. However those hives which seem to tolerate those 5 million spore loads ( Randy Oliver personal conversation) WILL NOT *in my opinion* survive a hard winter in the north. Maybe California, Florida or Texas but not two months of winter confinment. You could control nosema apis when wintered on two gallons of per label fumidl but per label fumidil WILL NOT from my tests control a heavy nosema ceranae problem at per label strength during a long winter confinement. Because: When heavily infected the bees quit feeding and STARVE to death. If they can not feed on honey then they can not vibrate their wings and generate heat. THE hive found in spring dead from nosema cerane will look exactly like a hive dead from cold mainly because cold was what killed the hive as the bees could not consume honey to generate heat. It is my opinion that nosema cerane has been killing hives for a long time in commercial operations but the losses were blammed on other causes. I do not by any maens have all the answers concerning nosema ceranae but have learned a few things along the way. Some bees have certainly adjusted to high N. ceranae spore loads (reasons unknown) *but* even those bees when transfered to comb which needs a acetic acid treatment soon crash from my tests. "Live and let die" is a wonderful thought but when I am really sick I seek the help of a medical doctor and medicene! bob Ps. What I have said above has been discussed and agreed as fact by some very large Midwest beeks. There are two types of beeks. Thsoe with nosema ceranae and those soon to get nosema ceranae. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:34:25 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, >> >does anyone else (besides dee) have a "bounce back" story from ccd >> >(repopulating deadout equipment from survivors without fumigating >> or >treating, and getting a good honey crop the same year...in the >> desert)? > >> Thanks Dee, for setting the record straight here on list, so it seems > > Not so fast. We are still waiting for the details. You forgot to insert your incorrect statement made about Dee concerning the statement Dean made about her recent "bounce back", of which you were referring to her ancient "bounce back" in the 90's. The statement below should have been included above so a chronological order of discussion could be seen by others so no deception would be implied. Here is your statement of untruth. >>Moreover, her "bounce back" was more of a 'creep back" and was accomplished over a long period, with great cost, and, moreover, most people do not know that it was accomplished to a considerable extent through the addition of swarms captured from a golf course and around the City of Tucson -- and by sacrificing any hope of a significant honey crop. >> I am satisfied with Dee's remarks concerning the statement above that was made. The other details I am also well aware of. > 1.) We think we heard (on good authority) that the bees were treated, Where was this said and by who, could you please cite this so we all know of which you are talking about? I think and am very sure that no such claim was made and there were no treatments made of chemical or antibody made that anyone in the know knows of. If someone claims bees were treated they are unfounded. Again I am sure Dee will set this straight too. > 2.) We do not know the magnitude of the 'bounceback', Most here do, but I am sure Dee will remind everyone. > 3.) Some of us don't think a drum of honey per yard is 'a good honey > crop', and Depends on how many hives are in a yard. At any rate a drum of honey from even a large yard in the same year of a bounce back from heavy colony losses is fairly good. > 4.) one of the criteria of CCD is that bees will not thrive in the > equipment until some considerable time after the loss. What is considered "considerable time", one, two, three, four, five, ??? years, maybe a lifetime? Just how long will it take to satisfy those who doubt Dee? Many are succeeding with the methods she subscribes simply because they use her methods and follow her free advice. God Bless and a Happy Thanksgiving to all, Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska klm@gci.net **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:07:57 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, > I thought Allen was referring to the early days of rebuilding the > outfit going from large cell to small cell also. > The well documented return to a large number of hives on small cell > was certainly a long process with little monetary returns from where > I sit. He was, but he was referring to what Dean was referring, of which was her most recent bounce back from her losses in the Fall of 2007 with what might have been CCD. See how confusing this has gotten because of someone misunderstanding a remark made, it seems very few understand the truth. I can see now it is snow balling into miss-information. > I do feel compelled to comment on nosema because I think maybe Dee > might not fully understand how quickly nosema ceranae can wipe out > an operation. Some apparently think it takes considerable time, here is a quote from a BEE-L member; " one of the criteria of CCD is that bees will not thrive in the equipment until some considerable time after the loss." Nosema Ceranae or CCD, which ever she had or was diagnosed having, she came back to numbers in those yards affected and made honey of a fair amount the following season after the Fall crash. This I think happened in close to a year period. > I would say most likely the 1959 date was for nosema apis. I think some are wondering if some of this was not Nosema Ceranae that was simply miss-diagnosed or was unknown of at the time. > I lost most of two yards this fall to nosema ceranae by reusing > boxes not treated with acetic acid. Live and learn. Well then, I think we may all see if Dee's methods do work if she has no loses in her Nosema Ceranae infected yards this fall. Dee simply reused untreated equipment in the same yards as had the losses and split from the survivors of the infection, thus propagating the resistant genetics left from the live and let die method Dee subscribes. Instead of treating and replacing stock with outside sources, she used what was left and built back up to numbers fast. > "Live and let die" is a wonderful thought but when I am really sick > I seek the help of a medical doctor and medicene! This is a common mistake to anthropomorphize bees to human conditions. This is a case of talking apples when we are speaking oranges. Dee is proving that the "Live and let die" method does work concerning bees and breeding bees, but that is hard for some to grasp on to. God Bless, Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska klm@gci.net **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:24:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Torrey Subject: Pricing locally produced honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I produce about 250 lbs. of honey. It is mostly from raspberry with a bit of wild flower mixed in. It doesn't crystallize and I have bottled it in 1 lb. skeps. I have made a label for the bottle and it is quite attractive. How much are beekeepers charging these days for a quality honey? I am having trouble selling mine. Currently selling to friends. Guess I need to develop a marketing plan. I am located in Maine, USA. David **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:30:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:37:32 -0800, allen wrote: >Other than that... Other than that is the small matter of stock. What kind of bees are being used? If I told you I came back from 90% losses in one year and made a crop of honey in NY state you would rightly assume I was using European stock. If I was writing from AZ or NM, you would be safe to assume I was using Africanized stock. So we would be talking about two different things. African bee keepers seldom do splits, as the bees fill the hives back up quicker than it takes to talk about it. So if it is simply a matter of getting the hives going again, having done this in an Africanized area is what you might call: no big deal. So if we are going to talk about restocking, shouldn't we ask: with what kind of bees? If an AZ beekeeper does not have African bees, then he or she has a very interesting story to tell. How is it possible to keep Euro bees in a totally Africanized area? People from all over surely want to know this. I simply don't see how letting the bees raise their own queens could produce anything but wild type stock. Many beekeepers in AZ or TX have made a success with wild type bees, and have given up chems as well. But they are African bees, so getting the numbers back up is like I said: no big deal. While we are on the subject, I might add that it is now generally accepted that restocking with survivors is the best and quickest way to get resistant bees. It has been successful in many areas. This is not really a management tool, though; it's more of an anti-management tool. But hey, if it works I am all for it. My point is, there is no need to look further for the root of success with these bees. According to Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is the best: Bees bouncing back on their own, through no particular talent of their keepers. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst groups.google.com/group/upstate-new-york-beekeeping **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:33:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad In-Reply-To: <5B5C70400724485D9FE813E4BDA76FBD@bobPC> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 24-Nov-08, at 11:06 AM, Bob Harrison wrote: > > Do not move the nucs for at least two weeks for best take or until > queen is laying solid patterns. Hi Bob and all Thanks Bob for a great 101. My response is by and for small beekeepers. I usually will buy 4-8 cells in late May or early June. My supplier grafts on Fridays so that he needs the order by Thursday. The cells are ready for pickup(30km from me) Tuesday morning 11 days old. Monty Smith from BC wrote in to ABJ a few years ago about his ideas on splitting. I remember it well as I thought he was nuts in his timing. I was wrong! Monty said; " once the cell is installed, leave the split alone for 25 days. Check the hive entrance activity, if you must to see what is going on, but don't open the hive". Figuring on 2 days for the queen to emerge, 7 or so for the mating flight, another 7 before she starts laying and 9 more for first worker cells to be capped. If you check on the 25th day and find brood in all stages, the cell took. I find that if the cell wasn't accepted for some reason and the bees started their own cells, there are lots of polished cells on the 25th day and open brood about a week later. This happens to about 1 in 4 splits Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 03:48:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline " I find that if the cell wasn't accepted for some reason and the bees started their own cells, there are lots of polished cells on the 25th day and open brood about a week later. This happens to about 1 in 4 splits" This means that you made the split with open brood + eggs? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 07:29:52 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed >> But getting back to what Allen Dick said for creep back over a logn >period............this was just not true, but was last fall in 2007 >> I presume the objection was to 'creep' rather than 'bounce' Several posts extracted from a brief search of the Bee-L archives. Whatever the timescale be it the long game over 7 years OR the short one post 'ccd', 'creep' seems the appropriate term. 660 to 'about' 700 seems a very small increase this year to call a bounce. Esp, if with the exception of the last season, losses are only 1 to 2% and swarms are collected. No allegations, no claims by the uninformed, just Dee's own writings ............................. Tue, 25 Dec 2001 09:24:48 -0800 From: Dee Lusby Does small cell size work. Well, we are now 700 colonies with three deep unlimited broodnests plus honey supers and planning to expand this year to 900-1,000 colonies. We are now also going into 6 years plus on this second regression. ............................................ Thu, 30 Sep 2004 02:06:39 EDT From: Dee Lusby close to 800 colonies going successfully now ............................................. Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:52:15 -0800 From: Dee Lusby Saying this, right now I have to say that even with our severe drought here in Arizona the past 5 years coupled with mites, things have tappered off and losses seem in the past few years down to only 1-2% now and the bees are humming along. ............................................. Fri, 9 May 2008 21:43:42 -0700 From: Dee Lusby Went overall from about 860 down too 660 going into winter, .............................................. Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:49:51 -0800 From: Dee Lusby Recently it was said I was not commercial but yet I keep about 700 hives and anticipate increasing this coming year. ................................................. Seems its all in the perceptions.......yet again. The believers believe..............despite the evidence. The disbelievers disbelieve...................despite the evidence. The pragmatists wait and see and examine the evidence. ( The cold numbers extracted from Dee's own writings with the feelgood stuff stripped out.) -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:32:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Mated Queens vs. Cells In-Reply-To: <6972DD68F2524F759887EFB498F25A7B@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen asked: > I was hoping to get your comments on the differences in time from > splitting to full laying between cells and mated queens. Have you any > numbers? I would guess at least a week and at times two weeks. Important: If you make your nucs up too early ( 24-48 hours before cells placed) and do not cut out the cells the bees raise or even start the bees will honor the cells they have made. When this happens you might say up to three weeks to get a queen in full production due to the time difference between a mature ready to hatch queen cell and a cell started by the bees using a 24 hour old larva. In Missouri we only use mated queens. Hives returning from almonds need split. Some swarm when the nets are pulled. We had 30 some swarms at the holding yard the first week after return last spring. Our first queens are from Hawaii and arrive around the 20th of March which is the time the bees usually return from almonds. Once each hive is worked those hives are placed in apples. Hives wintered in Missouri are split first and second week of April. We normally start raising our own queens around the third week of April due to poor mating weather. Hives returning from almonds are weeks ahead of Missouri hives in size. A much different scenario for bees in Texas but for another post. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 23:16:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Pricing locally produced honey In-Reply-To: <267553.81265.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello David, Rule number one is to not bottle to far ahead of your market. Applies to you and also to myself. 250 jars with only friends for a market will leave you with jars starting to crystallize. I would look around for a Church Christmas sale in December or maybe even ask a merchant to sell your honey until gone. If the market knows your honey is local and not over processed around five dollars a pound is not too high. You may have to give the merchant a cut for selling. Put a Christmas bow on the jars and go higher. I have walked into restaurants and had restaurants sell honey for me. All they need do is sit a couple jars on the counter with a price on the jar. One restaurant started using the jars on their tables and ended up buying a couple cases a month for their customers. After all they buy ketchup and mustard so why not honey for their customers? Honey these days sells best in squeeze jars which will sit upside down for future reference. You need to stay away from stores needing a bar code unless you plan to go large sideline producer. You might get a call from the health department to see if you have a food approved processing area but I would bet will not happen. Even so all they do is ask you to stop selling until you get the proper area. Sitting in the parking lot of a plant at shift change sells plenty of jars in a short period of time. At the auto plant in kc i used to sell a couple cases at shift change in a matter of minutes. I used to bring a friend to pretend he was buying a jar to break the ice. People do not want to be the first to buy but are always curious when they see a person buying a product which makes people stop. Just a few ideas to help you. If you do not move the 250 jars over the next couple months you might need to make a hot box to keep the jars clear. I did an article for Bee Culture years ago with plans with part numbers from Walter Kelley, Simple to make. Good luck with honey sales. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 01:15:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Murray, You are right it is a creep back when you have bad droughts and no major bl= ooms for 2-3 years, like main flows, and then on top of that also 8,000 acr= e plus fires, but leaving that out of the equation, I still came forward. C= an others say that? Also this year isn't over yet with 18 more to bed down = and get fall honey off of still. But the equipment is in usage though hives= are all 5 deeps in yards now where probably could be 4 high instead. But t= hat will change soon I think by spring.....and yet, it is chemical free, an= d artificial feed free by me in how I keep my bees compared to others. Coul= d they do anybetter given same circumstances? Also, one more thing, I did d= o stimulating feeding of honey/pollen frames to these hives........but I do= not treat my beehives....... =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:16:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Stewart Subject: Re: Pricing locally produced honey In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David The honey I took with me to market I sold as follows: Black Locust 4oz - 5.50, 8 oz - 9.00, Pint Jar - 14.00 Wildflower 4oz - 3.50, 8 oz - 6.00, Pint Jar - 11.00 I'm just outside Cincinnati, OH with a regional population of 2.5 million and sell from the farm and two farmer's markets. Which I think has a major impact on what prices you can charge. Hope that helps. Happy Thanksgiving Everyone! Richard Stewart Carriage House Farm North Bend, Ohio An Ohio Century Farm Est. 1848 (513) 967-1106 http://www.carriagehousefarmllc.com rstewart@zoomtown.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 05:59:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Pricing locally produced honey In-Reply-To: <8CECC62A-1779-41BD-81AB-668452AD39C6@zoomtown.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I sell to a local farm market in suburban St. Louis. I don't set up a table there -- I sell it to the major vendor there, who sells it for the following prices: 6 oz bear $3.25 12 oz bear $5.00 24 oz bear $8.00 I set my sell price and their sell price (about a 30 percent markup), both of which I raised by about a dollar last year when supply was short, and did not reduce this year. They can't keep it on the shelves, because it's LOCAL honey, labeled unheated and unfiltered. The labels are very primitive and that's part of the charm. I occasionally have someone call me and ask what it would cost to buy from me direct. I explain that it's the same price, that the farm market buys in quantity and makes money on the markup. Eugene Makovec Kirkwood, MO **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 09:54:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: Pricing locally produced honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I produce about 250 lbs. of honey. I am located in Maine, USA. If you are in a populated part of Maine, I suggest you look in natural food stores and upmarket supermarkets to see pricing for specialty honey. Some natural food stores are happy to add another line of honey to the shelf and will have customers who seek out "local" and "unheated" or "raw" honey. I sell quite a bit of honey through farm stands but that season is about over. Honey does make great gifts, so you might try Christmas tree vendors. My customers have shown a strong preference for glass over plastic containers. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:42:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: Pricing locally produced honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I live in the Mpls MN area. My and other raw local honey goes for $4-6 for 8oz container $8-$10 for 16 oz container The key to a good price is staying away from plastic and the ubiquitous honey bear. Plastic and honey bears says "cheap" and then you are marketing on price against foreign honey. I produce 30,000 pounds a season and make my living from my bees. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:30:30 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Honey bee Veterinarians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As an old livestock and diary farmer/rancher, I'm aware of the lack of =20 veterinarians for bees in the U.S. =20 I see parallels between beef operations and large migratory beekeepers, and=20= =20 dairy with queen producers or small scale beekeeping. =20 In a feedlot (we once had 1100 cattle), one tends not to notice a sick cow =20 until its down on its knees. I see the same in large bee operations with b= ees=20 spread out over hundreds or even thousands of miles. Just too many to =20 closely watch. =20 In a dairy, one sees each cow twice a day, and its easy to spot subtle =20 changes - she's off her feed, lethargic, etc. Something comparable occurs=20= with=20 queen producers, hobby bee, small bee operations - lots of personal attenti= on,=20 few enough colonies to check often. =20 In both bee and dairy, the owner self-medicates the obvious, and you can bu= y=20 the drugs at the local ranch supply. =20 But, there are cases that extend beyond the capability, experience of the =20 owner, or that may require additional testing. In those instances, one cal= ls a=20 veterinarian. =20 I don't see any such option for beekeepers in N. America. I have heard tha= t=20 something like a veterinarian for bees may be available overseas. If that'= s=20 the case, I'd like to know more, and I assume I'm not the only one on this=20 list who might be interested. =20 How does it work? Is it government or private? What are the services? What= =20 are the charges, and how charged - per hive, per apiary, on a service =20 contract? =20 Thanks Jerry **************Check out smokin=E2=80=99 hot deals on laptops, desktops and m= ore from=20 Dell. Shop Deals=20 (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1213345834x1200842686/aol?redir=3Dh= ttp://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;209513277;31396581;l) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:08:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Pricing locally produced honey In-Reply-To: <7A054AD8FC9D47FE8804FDAF09B24617@bobPC> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 25-Nov-08, at 12:16 AM, Bob Harrison wrote: > Hello David, > Rule number one is to not bottle to far ahead of your market. > Applies to you > and also to myself. 250 jars with only friends for a market will > leave you > with jars starting to crystallize. > Hi David Bob and all I sell only Raw honey. No filtering or heating. The honey goes from the extractor to the tank, where it is left for 2 weeks to allow the wax etc to settle to the top. After skimming the top, the honey is bottled. By this time it is starting to crystallize and does so in the jars. I sell my honey from an honour table in front of the house (most years over 1000 pounds). People used to wonder what that white stuff in the jars was. Now they ask, if I have some uncrystallized honey on the table, "don't you have any of the white stuff, its far nicer". Once people find out you have local honey of high quality, they keep on coming back year after year. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:52:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ed Reiller Subject: Re: honey bee veterinarian Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi all, As a veterinarian, and a hobby bee keeper, I would also be very interested in any information that anyone picks up. I can tell you that apiculture is not part of any veterinary school curriculum that I am aware of. However, that doesn't mean that a group of well meaning beekeepers and veterinarians cannot create a program. Thanks, Ed Reiller, DVM Western NY ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:10:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Honey bee Veterinarians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry wrote: As an old livestock and diary farmer/rancher, I'm aware of the lack of veterinarians for bees in the U.S. I don't see any such option for beekeepers in N. America. I have heard that something like a veterinarian for bees may be available overseas. If that's the case, I'd like to know more, and I assume I'm not the only one on this list who might be interested. Sometimes someone writes something makes you go "buzz". the above comment by Jerry does that. There are so many opinions floating around, I think it would be simply wonderful to have someine who taught a course of hands on disease diagnosis. for bees.that could include an eye for genetic influences as well(disease and genetics being so closely related at points) I know some of the major things such as sampling for varroa and Foulbrood etc from reading books, but am certain that I would be greatly helped if such a course were put together....and hopefully I could put together enough money to take it.....or at least know where to find a person who has taken it Beekeeping can be so complex and there are so many variables that it would be nice to see a course available that has been favorably "peer reviewd" by both commercial beekeepers and academic types as well. May it be so. John Horton N. Alabama ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:22:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Cutting Subject: Re: Pricing locally produced honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ________________________________ In 1992 my wife and I = =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AIn 1992 my wife and I = revised our farm business plan away from bulk wholesale accounts.=A0 We who= lesale case lots to local businesses and retail directly to customers.=A0 W= ithout looking at my numbers I'll estimate that 80% of our hive products ar= e direct marketed (candles, liquid, comb and creamed=A0honey).=A0 Our hive = product business has grown past what we can produce, so we purchase hive pr= oducts for other local beek's.=A0 Several of whom post here occasionally.= =A0 We also produce beef, pork, poultry (eggs) fruits and veggie's that are= 100% direct marketed.=0A=0AWe are heavily into local farmers markets.=A0 A= ll these markets have local product requirements.=A0 We sell in several sta= tes as well as maintain apiaries in these state.=A0 To maintain compliance,= =A0we segregate the products by the state of origin.=A0 Its a pain in the = bottom, but it keeps me compliant and when I'm looking directly at the cust= omer, I am honest with them.=A0 I don't lie worth a darn.=0A=0APricing of p= roduct.=A0 I usually get into trouble with other local beek's on this one.= =A0 Investment (Expenses$)=A0X Return on Investment (profit margin %) / pro= duction =3D pricing.=A0 A simple formula, but does require good record keep= ing.=A0=A0If you are efficient, your pricing will be lower than the other l= ocal beek's.=A0 My purchased hive product bid is figured on my own producti= on cost.=A0 If the beek I'm buying from has greater efficiency than I, we a= re both profitable.=A0 This method allows me to maintain a relatively stabl= e pricing structure.=A0 Constantly bouncing your pricing up and down will t= urn customers away.=A0 Repeat business is what you will survive on in the d= irect market model.=0A=0AThe best free advice I can give is to contact your= local Ag Extension office and work with them in building a business plan.= =A0 Other wise enjoy your bees and find 250 friends to give it to.=0A=0Akei= th ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:47:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: FW: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 22/11/2008 19:11:53 GMT Standard Time, murray@DENROSA.DEMON.CO.UK writes: I understand what you say about the need for quieter bees than we tolerate due to them being on your allotment. We are wary of anything TOO nasty as at heather time we are on estates with a very high footfall of walkers so serious followers are not accepted, nor are types who are in attack mode on days with good bee handling conditions. -- Murray, I, too, keep bees on an allotment as well as other places that are likely to be within reach of the public, including a teaching establishment (permaculture)where twice last year I hived swarms with audience participation of which only anybody actually 'hands on' was protected. Normally, for me, bees are well behaved and at that site where my own (the owner has a WBC) hive is a TBH, as often as not I don't bother with a smoker and sometimes not a veil. Colonies of bees are as individual as people. It is years since I experienced really stingy bees (my record is 55 stings in one go). Once a Bee Inspector asked me 'Do your bees always follow like this?' but it was HIM, not me that they were following, not me, although we had both been equally working the hives. I am coming around towards the view that 'bad temper' in bees is a combination of genetics, hive design, handling, body odour and luck in varying proportions. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:26:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: honey bee veterinarian In-Reply-To: <8CB1D4609D5ACD8-DB4-761@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 25-Nov-08, at 1:52 PM, Ed Reiller wrote: > . I can tell you that apiculture is not part of any veterinary > school curriculum that I am aware of. Hi Ed Jerry and all The Ontario Beekeepers Assoc Tech Transfer Team do contract (for a fee) beeyard analysis throughout the Province. They are supported by the University of Guelph Apiculture Professor Dr Ernesto Guzman(a veterinarian and bee researcher) who's services are shared by the OBA and the U of Guelph. Recently they have been working on funding for an improved lab and technician to work solely on diagnosis of honey bee problems. Both Dr Guzman and Alison Skinner(head of the Tech Transfer Team) will be speaking at the CHC, OBA, CAPA convention in Niagara Falls Ont Dec 10-13/ 08 Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:22:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Pricing locally produced honey In-Reply-To: <5B50A653-1A81-43B6-94E6-D0DC38E72CD4@interlog.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bob D. & All, I always say do whatever works for you and your business. I have supplied the area health food stores for decades and every one let the suppliers use heat to 120 F. if needed. I have explained my methods for crystal free raw honey before on BEE-L but will again at the end of the post. By this time it is starting to crystallize and does so in > the jars. Creamed honey which basically is honey with small crystals (Dyce method) is easy to remove from the container. Properly done the honey is heated to 150 F. to remove all the large crystals and then seeded ( usually 10% by volume) with crystallized honey with small crystals produced by grinding the large crystals smaller. placed in a frig at 57F for usually eight days and if enough seed is added you get creamed honey. Honey which crystallizes with large crystals (typical) is almost impossible to remove from most containers. Perhaps Bob D. produces a honey which granulates fine but here in the Midwest most honey which granulates with large crystals is almost impossible to remove from the jar without heating. Especially queenline jars. I realize some honeys are slow to granulate and others granulate fast. I also sell a unprocessed honey from July through end of the season at my market for those wanting unprocessed honey. What I find funny when talking to producers of so called raw honey is they use a hot heated knife to remove the cappings. Does not a hot knife hot enough to remove cappings from both sides heat the honey? I think so which would make the honey not raw. My method involves a processing area which is maintained at 90 F. day and night. We have summer days in Missouri when the outside temps are 100F but do usually drop at night. I still believe that 90F. does not harm honey. In fact I have read the first thing killed by heat are the yeasts and it takes a 100F. to kill the yeasts. My pumps will easily pump honey over 80F. I use no heat on the raw honey sump. I use a Dakota Guiness chain flail uncapper. NO HEAT. I pump first into a 300 gallon tank to settle. Then into a 210 gallon tank. No heat. Before starting the process: I flush the entire system with 170 F. water to remove all crystals. I remove the bottling valve before each batch and place in boiling water to remove any crystals. I then pull from the middle of the tank the honey into 55 gallon drums which I have washed with 170F. water and like I do all my drums : important point: When I place a drum in service I fill the bottom crack where the coating does not penetrate with food approved epoxy. If you do not crystals hide in the crack and provide seed for the raw honey. I do ALL my drums like this. My drums do not have the crack but look and fell like a window chalking. Usually the drum is not solid the next spring but does have swirls in the honey. I slowly heat to remove swirls or remove crystals. I always tell my customers wanting raw honey the amount of heat used to produce a product which will remain clear for approx 30-60 days. The honey I sell to bakeries or in drums to other beeks is done like all other commercial beeks. I use 120F. heat on the sump and usually 120 F. heat in the settling tank and pump into drums. I still use a flail uncapper on all comb and drums with the epoxy seal in the bottom. I store ALL honey in an unheated building allowing the honey to drop to a temp of around 35-40 F. over the winter. Most is not solid in spring. I have seen beeks try to store drums in a building heated to around 57F all winter. The exact temp at which honey crystallizes the most. Duh! My extractors leave the comb very dry. I also place the supers on the bees before the flow starts so the bees remove all the cappings left by the Dakota and clean the cells of any crystals. I purposely do not feed my bees for weeks before adding supers so the bees move into and clear the supers of crystals quickly. I have found putting supers on too late after a strong flow has started the bees will not always remove all crystals before filling. When I find crystals in the settling tank I have to pump out , wash out with 170F water and boil the valve and start over. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:22:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? Comments: To: klm@gci.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/24/2008 5:34:33 PM Mountain Standard Time, klm@gci.net writes: > .) We think we heard (on good authority) that the bees were treated, Reply: No treatments in a beehive I keep nor artificial feeds......period and on that I will stand and I don't care who does lab testing to prove........... But Who was this "good authority" that the bees were treated?.....now this I would like to know who the mouth is? Comments anyone? Dee A. Lusby ************** One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com today!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212962939x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com/? optin=new-dp%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:21:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Torrey Subject: Pricing locally produced honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks to everyone who responded. Attending Farmer's Markets was a popular suggestion. I also found out that I have been "giving away" my honey. Need to raise my prices. This list has many friendly and helpful people willing to share information. Best regards, David ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 07:48:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Leadership Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think this is the kind of leadership our industry badly needs. Thank you Jerry Bromenshenk! >From Kim Flottums newsletter Bayer and Beekeepers Meet to Discuss Pesticides and Honey Bees by Randy Oliver Scientists from Bayer CropScience met with representatives of the national and California beekeeping associations, commercial beekeepers, bee scientists, the Almond Board, and a state agricultural official at South Lake Tahoe during the California State Beekeepers meeting on November 11, 2008. This meeting was the first in a series of workshops intended to provide open and honest discussion of pesticides and to overcome preconceived perceptions by both sides. Key goals for improved interactions included: 1) improving trust through greater transparency from manufacturers regarding products and testing protocols, 2) establishing better communications between all parties, 3) providing improved education to applicators for bee- friendly practices, and 4) addressing regulatory and enforcement systems to ensure adherence to label directions and to establish a nationwide system of reporting, tracking, and correcting misuses. A priority action item was appointment of a Honey Bee Advisory Board (HBAB) by the two national beekeeping associations. The HBAB will work with Bayer on setting priorities, as well as the design of tests that better address beekeeper concerns. Other immediate action items included development of models for a national database for pesticide incident reporting, and ideas for web site posting of bee information, including regular notices to appear in beekeeping trade journals. Bayer also agreed to pull together publications and conduct a briefing concerning clothianidin, imidacloprid, and Movento at the next meeting, which will be in conjunction with the upcoming American Honey Producers Association meeting in Fresno, in January. This first meeting was a result of an invitation from researcher Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk (The University of Montana) to Dr. David Fischer (Chief Scientist, Ecotoxicology, Bayer CropScience) to participate in a stakeholders meeting in conjunction with the California State Beekeepers Convention. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:19:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > I still keep queens two years and (like Brother Adam) believe queens > produce better in the second year (but are swarmy so precautions need taken > over first year queens). We yard trash every colony into nucs each spring. We kill all poorly performing queens, but leave the best ones with a frame or two of brood in a double of drawn comb. These pick up the drift in the yard, build up huge, but don't get there until swarm season has passed. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:41:17 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Pricing locally produced honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >250 jars with only friends for a market will leave you with jars starting to crystallize. I jar the honey within hours and days of extracting. As soon as we can. [Actually my wife does just about all the jarring these days.] I do not want the honey to sit in food-grade plastic buckets too long since plastic compounds act as pseudo-hormones in the human body. I sell raw honey only. It's not heated and not even warmed up. It will start crystallizing in the jars - the spring honey is the last to do so. No big deal. My customers know that this is normal/natural for raw honey. Sell all of your honey directly. Craigs list work great unless you are sitting on top of many barrels of honey. Eventually you will develop a good base of repeat customers. Farm stands in suburbs will move many cases each if you have extra. >>If the market knows your honey is local and not over processed around five dollars a pound is not too high. My direct price is $7. Wholesale to farm stand is $6, farm stands sell for bet. $9 and $10. Other beekeepers here in NY suburbia sell directly for bet. $9 and $16. Only some will fill their customers jars for $4. [All the prices above are per pound.] Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:47:31 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Comparing Pollen Patties Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>California beekeepers are feeding Global's patties _on the bottom board_ in warm weather with good success. <...> Can anyone corroborate this? I take pollen-packed section of feral comb that I collect and prop against the hive on the bottom board. 2-3 chunks at a time. In minutes, they are covered by bees. The pollen is eaten out in 1-2 days. This is saves the hives an equivalent pollen-gathering effort and there is no wasting of a valuable resource. Another way, if you have extra equipment, is to stand up a few chunks on top of the inner cover and put an empty super around them. A pro: the pollen is not exposed to the damaging sun rays. A con: the bees will often store nectar in the comb chuncks. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:38:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Bees declared the winners in Earthwatch's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.earthwatch.org/europe/newsroom/science/news-3-result1.html Bees were declared the most invaluable species on the planet at the Earthwatch debate last night, November 20, at the Royal Geographical Society, London. Members of the audience had to make up their minds whether to vote with their heads or their hearts as five eminent scientists battled it out during the exciting evening. An initial vote put Professor David Thomas in the lead with plankton, followed by Dr. George McGavin representing bees; then the pair were each given another five minutes to win over support for their species - and everything changed. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:49:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Honey export from Argentina OCT 2008 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline See page 39 for statistics in english http://www.apitrack.com/pdf/Argentina_SENASA_Informe_Octubre_11_2008.pdf -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:53:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Composition and Antioxidant Activity of Trigona carbonaria Honey from Australia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline Kmh0dHA6Ly93d3cubGllYmVydG9ubGluZS5jb20vZG9pL2Ficy8xMC4xMDg5L2ptZi4yMDA3LjA3 MjQqCgoqCioKCipBQlNUUkFDVCoKClN0aW5nbGVzcyBiZWVzIChUcmliZSBNZWxpcG9uaW5pKSBh cmUgYSBkaXZlcnNlIGdyb3VwIG9mIGhpZ2hseSBldXNvY2lhbApiZWVzIGRpc3RyaWJ1dGVkIHRo cm91Z2hvdXQgdGhlIHRyb3BpY3MgYW5kIHN1YnRyb3BpY3MuICpUcmlnb25hCmNhcmJvbmFyaWEq aG9uZXksIGZyb20gQXVzdHJhbGlhLCB3YXMgY2hhcmFjdGVyaXplZCBieSB0cmFkaXRpb25hbApw aHlzaWNvY2hlbWljYWwKcGFyYW1ldGVycyAoYWNpZGl0eSwgc3VnYXJzLCBkaWFzdGFzZSwgZWxl Y3RyaWNhbCBjb25kdWN0aXZpdHksCmh5ZHJveHltZXRoeWxmdXJmdXJhbCwgaW52ZXJ0YXNlLCBu aXRyb2dlbiwgYW5kIHdhdGVyIGNvbnRlbnQpIGFuZCBvdGhlcgpjb21wb3NpdGlvbmFsIGZhY3Rv cnMgKGZsYXZvbm9pZHMsIHBvbHlwaGVub2xzLCBvcmdhbmljIGFjaWRzLCBhbmQgd2F0ZXIKYWN0 aXZpdHkpLCBhcyB3ZWxsIGFzIHRvdGFsIGFudGlveGlkYW50IGNhcGFjaXR5IGFuZCByYWRpY2Fs IHNjYXZlbmdpbmcKYWN0aXZpdHkuIEZvciB0aGUgQXVzdHJhbGlhbiAqVC4gY2FyYm9uYXJpYSos IHRoZSB0cmFkaXRpb25hbCBhbmFseXRpY2FsCnBhcmFtZXRlcnMgd2VyZSBzaW1pbGFyIHRvIHRo b3NlIHByZXZpb3VzbHkgcmVwb3J0ZWQgZm9yIG5lb3Ryb3BpY2FsCnN0aW5nbGVzcyBiZWUgaG9u ZXkgYW5kIGNvbmZpcm0gdGhhdCBob25leXMgcHJvZHVjZWQgYnkgTWVsaXBvbmluaSBiZWVzCnBv c3Nlc3Mgc2V2ZXJhbCBwaHlzaWNvY2hlbWljYWwgcHJvcGVydGllcyB0aGF0IGFyZSBkaXN0aW5j dGx5IGRpZmZlcmVudApmcm9tICpBcGlzIG1lbGxpZmVyYSogaG9uZXksIHdpdGggaGlnaGVyIHZh bHVlcyBvZiBtb2lzdHVyZSAoMjYuNSCxIDAuOCBnIG9mCndhdGVyLzEwMCBnIG9mIGhvbmV5KSwg d2F0ZXIgYWN0aXZpdHkgKDAuNzQgsSAwLjAxKSwgZWxlY3RyaWNhbCBjb25kdWN0aXZpdHkKKDEu NjQgsSAwLjEyIG1TL2NtKSwgYW5kIGZyZWUgYWNpZGl0eSAoMTI0LjIgsSAyMi45IG1FcS9rZyBv ZiBob25leSkgYW5kIGEKdmVyeSBsb3cgZGlhc3Rhc2UgYWN0aXZpdHkgKDAuNCCxIDAuNSBkaWFz dGFzZSBudW1iZXIpIGFuZCBpbnZlcnRhc2UKYWN0aXZpdHkgKDUuNyCxIDEuNSBpbnZlcnRhc2Ug bnVtYmVyKS4gVGhlIHN1Z2FyIHNwZWN0cnVtIHdhcyBxdWl0ZQpkaWZmZXJlbnQgZnJvbSB0aGF0 IG9mICpBLiBtZWxsaWZlcmEqIGhvbmV5LCB3aXRoIDIwLjMgsSAyLjkgZyBvZgptYWx0b3NlLzEw MCBnIG9mIGhvbmV5LiBUaGUgdmFsdWVzIG9mIHBIICg0LjAgsSAwLjEpLCBsYWN0b25pYyBhY2lk aXR5ICg0LjcKsSAwLjggbUVxL2tnIG9mIGhvbmV5KSwgc3Vjcm9zZSAoMS44ILEgMC40IGcvMTAw IGcgb2YgaG9uZXkpLCBhbmQKZnJ1Y3Rvc2UvZ2x1Y29zZSByYXRpbyAoMS40MiCxIDAuMTMpIGZl bGwgaW4gdGhlIHNhbWUgcmFuZ2VzIGFzIHRob3NlIG9mICpBLgptZWxsaWZlcmEqIGhvbmV5LiBD aXRyaWMgKDAuMjMgsSAwLjA5KSBhbmQgbWFsaWMgKDAuMTIgsSAwLjAzKSBhY2lkCmNvbmNlbnRy YXRpb25zIChpbiBnL2tnIG9mIGhvbmV5KSBvZiAqVC4gY2FyYm9uYXJpYSogaG9uZXlzIHdlcmUg aW4gdGhlCnJhbmdlIGRlc2NyaWJlZCBmb3IgKkEuIG1lbGxpZmVyYSogaG9uZXkuIEQtR2x1Y29u aWMgd2FzIG1vcmUgY29uY2VudHJhdGVkCig5LjkgsSAxLjMgZy9rZyBvZiBob25leSksIGluIHRo ZSByYW5nZSBvZiBJdGFsaWFuICpDYXN0YW5lYSosICpUaHltdXMqLCAqCkFyYnV0dXMqLCBhbmQg aG9uZXlkZXcgaG9uZXlzLiBGbGF2b25vaWQgY29udGVudCB3YXMgMTAuMDIgsSAxLjU5IG1nIG9m CnF1ZXJjZXRpbiBlcXVpdmFsZW50cy8xMDAgZyBvZiBob25leSwgYW5kIHBvbHlwaGVub2wgY29u dGVudHMgd2VyZSA1NS43NCCxCjYuMTEgbWcgb2YgZ2FsbGljIGFjaWQgZXF1aXZhbGVudHMvMTAw IGcgb2YgaG9uZXkuIFRoZSBhbnRpb3hpZGFudCBhY3Rpdml0eSwKZXhwcmVzc2VkIGFzIHBlcmNl bnRhZ2Ugb2YgMiwyJy1hemlub2Jpcy0oMy1ldGh5bGJlbnpvdGhpYXpvbGluZS02LXN1bGZvbmlj CmFjaWQpIGNhdGlvbiAoQUJUUy4rKSBkZWNvbG9yaXphdGlvbiwgd2FzIDIzMy45NiCxIDUwLjk1 ICrsTSogVHJvbG94CmVxdWl2YWxlbnRzLCBhbmQgZnJlZSByYWRpY2FsIDEsMS1kaXBoZW55bC0y LXBpY3J5bGh5ZHJhenlsIChEUFBILikKZGVwbGV0aW9uIHdhcyA0OC4wMyCxIDEyLjU4IGVxdWl2 YWxlbnRzIG9mIGFzY29yYmljIGFjaWQuIEFsbCByZXBvcnRlZAp2YWx1ZXMgYXJlIGF2ZXJhZ2Vz ILEgc3RhbmRhcmQgZGV2aWF0aW9uLiBUaGUgYW50aW94aWRhbnQgYWN0aXZpdHkgY2FuCnJlcHJl c2VudCBhbiBpbXBvcnRhbnQgYWRkZWQgdmFsdWUgZm9yICpULiBjYXJib25hcmlhKiBob25leSwg dG8gaW5pdGlhdGUgYQptZWRpY2luYWwgYXBwcm9hY2ggZm9yIGJvdGggbnV0cml0aW9uYWwgYW5k IHBoYXJtYWNldXRpY2FsIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucywKYmVzaWRlcyBmdXJ0aGVyIHBoeXNpY29jaGVt aWNhbCBjaGFyYWN0ZXJpemF0aW9uLgoKCi0tIApKdWFuc2UgQmFycm9zIEouCkFQSVpVUiBTLkEu CkNhcnJlcmEgNjk1CkdvcmJlYSAtIENISUxFCis1Ni00NS0yNzE2OTMKMDgtMzYxMzMxMApodHRw Oi8vYXBpYXJhdWNhbmlhLmJsb2dzcG90LmNvbS8KanVhbnNlYXBpQGdtYWlsLmNvbQo= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 10:30:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad Comments: To: Randy Oliver Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit randy oliver wrote: >We yard trash every colony into nucs each spring. You want to elaborate a tad on that? I assume this is after Almonds, but well before May (spring doesn't arrive here until May) pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:47:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Honey price MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Juanse wrote: India will be getting some honey into the market very soon. However: A European Council directive issued in 2001 (2001/110/EC) defines honey as "the natural sweet substance produced by Apis mellifera bees from ........" Does the Indian honey come from Apis mellifera or Apis cerana (or one or more of the other Indian species of honeybee). Are there similar regs in N. America? Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:51:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Kirk_Jones?= Subject: using queen cells and timing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, I read Bob H.'s post with interest and wanted to comment on the use of queen cells and timing issues. Bob wrote: Important: If you make your nucs up too early ( 24-48 hours before cells placed) and do not cut out the cells the bees raise or even start the bees will honor the cells they have made. When this happens you might say up to three weeks to get a queen in full production due to the time difference between a mature ready to hatch queen cell and a cell started by the bees using a 24 hour old larva. I often install cells after up to three days of queenlessness (sometimes we have to play catch up) and of course the bees are already raising cells. It seems to me that they often take the new queen from the cells regardless. I usually like to wait at least 24 hours until I install the cells, thinking that the bees would be more receptive. I never tear down cells that are already started. Often I will release "walkers" that have hatched out in the incubator into new splits, that are very fresh, and the bees ignore them. They just walk on down. I have had success with releasing virgins, provided the bees have been queenless for a while and the virgins have just hatched out that morning. Sometimes we spray them with sugar water. I would like to hear from others as to their experience with cells. I am always curious what others have tried with success, even though conventional thought is otherwise. Bees never cease to surprise me. Kirk Jones ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:07:43 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Honey price MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris asked: > Does the Indian honey come from Apis mellifera or Apis cerana (or one or > more of the other Indian species of honeybee). Depends which part of India - mainly mellifera in North and cerana in the South. Honey from stingless bees (Trigona) is very highly valued (6 times the price - it is 'Ayurvedic')), but there is so little that I doubt much could be exported. The EU ignores its own rather illogical definition - honey from cerana has been imported for a long time. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:23:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Mike_Bassett?= Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:06:14 -0600, Bob Harrison wrote: >When we raise cells in Texas we use the jenter system and need around 6-10 >systems. My question is how do you address the wax that is added to the end of the plug that is inserted into the jenter box. After a while a large number of the plugs when pulled out the back leave the egg and wax in the cell. I have tried new plugs with new wax, cleaning out the hole with q tips etc and still lose a large # of eggs due to this problem. other than that it works very good. >The only queen rearing system I have use (other than grafting) has been the >jenter. Others will need to comment on the Mann lake system which is >advertised to raise I think four times as many cells as the jenter. I use both and both work well, the Mann lake system doesn't require that the cells be drawn out first. I put both in a few days early and they seem to work better that way. The mann lake system is hard to remove there equivilent of the plugs, but I ran across a real old fly tying material holder that has rubber on the ends(hold the plastic cups better) that lets you remove the cups slick. just listen for cracks some times the plastic cup will crack, throw it away and never try and resuse the cups to time consuming. I have tried to train the queens to enter the box on there own so i don't have to find them but thus far no sucess. mike bassett syracuse n.y. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:24:30 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Honey price MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 26/11/2008 18:18:44 GMT Standard Time, peter.edwards@HOMECALL.CO.UK writes: honey from cerana has been imported for a long time. Would the average customer, or even a Honey Judge, be able to distinguish Ac honey from Am? Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:23:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Honey from mellifera vs cerana In-Reply-To: <502A6D2E1B12423FBBF13C892200D715@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Does the Indian honey come from Apis mellifera or Apis > cerana. > The EU ignores its own rather illogical definition - honey > from cerana has > been imported for a long time. Is there a detectable difference between honey from these species? Assuming they're working the same blooms, what if anything are they doing differently? (Isn't honey from scutella the same as that from mellifera?) For that matter, if we could coax bumblebees into storing honey, would it be different from that stored by honeybees? Eugene Makovec Kirkwood, MO ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:12:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: 3 year old HFCS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a little(20 Gallons ) of HFCS that I was going to "top off" a yard. I wouldnt be averaging over about 5 lbs/hive in this yard......the HFCS looks clear and tastes good-doesnt seem bitter. I make it clear I am asking for simple opinions. Any reasonable red flags raised would be appreciated Thanks John Horton Thinking I bees thankful that I put 10 gallons of gas in my truck for 17 bucks!!! N. Alabama ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:24:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: 3 year old HFCS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If your 20 gal of syrup ever got hot - tank in the sun, heater in tank, etc. - you run the risk of high HMF levels. If its been in a dark, cool corner of a basement, its probably ok. Jerry **************Finally, one site has it all: your friends, your email, your favorite sites. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000006) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:16:47 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Harrison: I have been searching myself and so far nosema ceranae dates to around 2000= ( maybe farther but not confirmed by the USDA-ARS to me). Reply: Has already been confirmed going back further, and posted here too I believ= e; so far the mid-1980s, and is why I opened files I have, to see how furth= er back findings in USA were. For if both types Nosema found in looking at = old samples in 1980s,... then why not look further back and believe it or n= ot it does go back even further beyond 1959 for Nosema in USA, just like wi= th mites fwiw? Also, the time frame for initially finding in EU matches tra= nsitions in industry for what they doing in both USA and EU, so we should h= ave known what to expect before hand.........at least in my thoughts!! =A0 Regards, =A0 Dee A. Lusby =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:03:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: <200811262242.mAQMYfEL015976@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dee, I'm having trouble deciphering your response to Bob where you assert Nosema ceranae was confirmed in the mid-1980s as posted here on BEE-L. Who confirmed it? As we all know, merely psting something on BEE-L does not make it so. I have to assume that the samples were taken in the 1980s and only recently confirmed? Was anyone even looking for Nosema ceranae in the 1980s? Similar logic must apply the "beyond 1959" samples you allude to? It seems that you are using "beyond 1959" to mean earlier than 1959 (1958, 1957, ...) although beyond 1959 would actually be 1960, 1961, 1962... I think what you are getting at is establishing a definitive date as to when Nosema ceranae can be verified in the US, but again I'm having trouble deciphering what you wrote. And if/when that date is determined (is that date of mites or Nosema ceranae), what exactly was transitioning in the industry in the USA and EU. I'm not sure what it is that we should have known to expect beforehand. If you will answer in the President's English, perhaps we can comment. Respectfully asked, Aaron Morris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 23:45:01 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Honey price MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote: > Would the average customer, or even a Honey Judge, be able to distinguish > Ac > honey from Am? Probably not, although the honey would have a different flavour - much cerana honey from S India comes from the rubber trees (extra-floral nectaries) and is not, to my taste, a particularly good flavour; I believe that much of it goes in things like breakfast cereals. It also tends to have a very high moisture content (I measured 23.75%), but this can be reduced with appropriate equipment. In Thailand I saw what was, effectively, nectar being harvested - but processing quickly reduced the moisture to whatever the customer wanted - 15% - 18%. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 23:49:28 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike asked: > My question is how do you address the wax that is added to the end of the > plug that is inserted into the jenter box. I am not sure why you would let them draw out the comb - queens are happy to lay in the box without it being drawn. Pictures here: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/Newsletters/August2006.htm Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 23:57:26 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Honey from mellifera vs cerana MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eugene asked: > Is there a detectable difference between honey from these species? > Assuming they're working the same blooms, what if anything are they doing > differently? If kept in the same area, it is quite likely that they will work different plants. In the Western Ghats (mountains S India) we saw carana working cardamom in deep shade at 7.30am. When they tried importing mellifera they would not work it at all. The stingless bees work another group of plants. > (Isn't honey from scutella the same as that from mellifera?) Yes, scutella (or scutellata) is Apis mellifera scutellata! > For that matter, if we could coax bumblebees into storing honey, would it > be different from that stored by honeybees? They don't store 'honey' - just nectar - so we will never know. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:15:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 26/11/2008 23:53:46 GMT Standard Time, peter.edwards@HOMECALL.CO.UK writes: Pictures here: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/Newsletters/August2006.htm Peter, a) The bees look rather like Amm, dark with narrow tomenta. Is it their reputation for bad temper that made the operator wear gloves? b) (Off topic) I produce a newletter but don't know how to include pictures. perhaps you could enlighten me (off List). Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:21:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Nosema hair splitting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dee Lusby wrote: > [Nosema] Has already been confirmed going back further, and posted here too I believe; so far the mid-1980s, and is why I opened files I have, to see how further back findings in USA were. For if both types Nosema found in looking at old samples in 1980s ... then why not look further back and believe it or not it does go back even further beyond 1959 for Nosema in USA, just like with mites fwiw? Hmm. You are now saying that nosema ceranae has been here "all along" just like you claimed for varroa mites and of course, honey bees were in the Americas "all along" as well. A minor point, but nosema ceranae was not even named until 1996 and cannot be positively identified without dna tests. Having not looked for it and therefore having not found it, doesn't mean that it was "probably there all along". In fact, it is entirely plausible that nosema ceranae, whatever it is, has only recently evolved as a branch species from another nosema species, which has definitely been suggested here at Bee-L. We are talking about microsporidia. These organisms have been classified and re-classified, identified and re-identified. Once thought to be one-celled animals, now thought to be minute fungi. The differences between them in terms of ID are beyond the scope of the average person. We are talking about specific regions of their dna! However, the key point here is: what are the symptoms? Are we seeing radically different symptoms? If so, it is a new problem *regardless* it is a new organism or a new more virulent strain of a previously identified one. Best not to get bogged down in taxonomy, especially if you don't know anything about PCR. > Microsporidia infections in hymenopteran pollinators > Phylogenetically, Microsporidia are now considered highly specialised parasitic fungi. They are all intracellular parasites with a characteristic and unique mode of infection. Microsporidia may infect all life forms and undoubtedly, only a small fraction of the actual number of species have been characterised. In Hymenopteran pollinators, microsporidia infections have been described from four host species only: Nosema apis infecting the European honey bee, Apis mellifera; Nosema ceranae infecting the Asian honey bee, Apis cerana; Nosema bombi, infecting Bombus spp. and Antonospora scoticae infecting Andrena scoticae. N. apis and N. ceranae are cross infective between hosts. However, N. apis does not do well in A. cerana, whereas there is a worldwide process of N. ceranae replacing N. apis in A. mellifera. > N. bombi has recently become of particular interest for conservationists, since this parasite may be distributed to areas assumed free from this parasite, thereby presumably endangering endemic bumble bee spp. Furthermore, within-genome rRNA variability in N. bombi suggests that to characterize intraspecific genetic variants in the Microsporidia based on RNA sequences is not straight forward. A. scoticae infects the fat body tissue of A. scotica and may occur with an extreme prevalence in its host. ALSO SEE: http://www.bwars.com/Andrena_scotica.htm ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:28:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Nosema Ceranae in US In-Reply-To: <8518F15BB956014C90B2E2CC0D4C4F9F02CDB14E@w2k3telnet.root.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -- Hello All, So far below is the earliest confirmed nosema ceranae find to my = knowledge.=20 The editor of a bee magazine sent the information to me. =20 Just an FYI....Tony Jadczak, State inspector from Maine, submitted = samples of bees to USDA he collected in 1985 to check for T mites while = in Maine for BBerry pollination...tests recently ran show that 30% had = NC back then...this just fyi...maybe puts a different spin on colony = deaths in the last 25 years....or not. I was in the nosema ceranae bee yards today and picked up some = deadouts. Feeders full , hives dwindling and dead bees in feeders. I am = convinced you need to use acetic acid on dead outs before adding new = bees. This spring all equipment going back into production will be = given an acetic acid treatment.=20 Since nosema ceranae has been found in my hives I suppose I have lost = around 40-50 hives I could not save using the drench method ( Eric = Mussen & Randy Oliver).=20 I will say all my other yards are the best bees in years and using the = drench method has worked to keep N. ceranae issues only in the test = yards.=20 In areas in which you are trying to winter bees in cold and expect a = couple months of confinement I think depopulating late stage N. ceranae = hives, treating with acetic acid and starting new in spring is the best = method. By spring I will have a good idea of which n. ceranae hives = will survive and which are a waste of time and money. In my opinion what I see parallels Spain. a hive can be full of bees. = The first signs of a problem is after summer supers are removed comes = with the first gallon of feed. The hive obviously needs feed and is = strong enough to empty a gallon feeder in 24 hours but does not touch = the feed.=20 When I check the yard next visit I find all the other hives feeders = empty but certain hives. I mark the hive as "feed still in feeder". On = the next visit I find the feeder still full but the feeder full of dead = bees. Dr. Mussen explains that the bees have serious N. ceranae in the = Mid gut and can not feed and in fact are starving which explains the = dead bees in feeder. Meanwhile you see a big decline in bees each week.=20 *If* I start the drench early enough ( at first signs) then the = problem can at times be reversed. However once you see dead bees in the = feeder then the hive is doomed in my opinion. I can honestly say I personally only know of a handful of people in = the U.S. looking at the problem ( other than the USDA-ARS ). Dr. Eric = Mussen, Randy Oliver and myself for three. If others on the list are = setting a few yards aside and doing testing I would love to hear from = you. In California Randy and Eric seem to be seeing a different scenario = than me. Close but not exactly the same. I trust what they are seeing = and I believe California trusts what I see.=20 I have worked out a course of action for the commercial beek in the = Midwest but will be better able to fine tune after I get results of = trying to winter certain N. ceranae colonies. =20 I plan to end the nosema ceranae experiments in spring and simply = stick to my game plan. Once the boxes with high N. ceranae spore counts = are treated I believe N. ceranae can be controlled with a drench when = needed. Some of the boxes I brought in today are dysentary stained along with = dead bees in feeders. I do worry that problems might occur in other = colonies as two were robbed out. Some of these hives were drenched four = times but continued to dwindle. I only post so if in the future others start seeing signs of N. = ceranae you can go back and reread my posts on N. ceranae. I am doing = the testing for mainly selfish reasons but willing to share what I have = learned. I certainly have not got all the answers but have learned quite a bit = over the last two years of testing. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 02:35:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: using queen cells and timing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "I would like to hear from others as to their experience with cells. I am always curious what others have tried with success, even though conventional thought is otherwise." I got tired of using cell cause you are never sure that they will hatch and that the bees will accept it. I change from JZBZ cups to Nicolet because this latter system have a nice tube as a queen cage so as to allow the queen to be born caged. The only trick is take the cell out of the cup the day after emergence cause some queen are traped when going out after feeding in the royal jelly. I check the virgin queens, bank them for up to 7 days if need, and then install the virgin in the nucs using Amonium Nitrate (nitrato de amonio) with the smoker. Check here (in spanish) for the use of Nitrato http://www.sada.org.ar/Articulos/Tecnicos/Nitrato.htm Very fast, very clean. This year out of 1700 nucs we had an 85% fecundation rate and we are sure that the queen in the nuc is the one we installed. Question: Can I paint the queen when virgin? Will the painting interfere with the fecundation? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 21:29:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: using queen cells and timing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Juanse Barros wrote: >Can I paint the queen when virgin? Will the painting interfere with the >fecundation? Hola, Juanse! Yes, you can paint; no, it won't hurt. Working at the Dyce Lab, our standard practice was to emerge queen cells in cages in an incubator, mark them and introduce them to nucs in cages. By the way, we used old based model airplane paint, applied with a sharp wooden toothpick, just a small dot. Some outfits color code; I think Wilbanks uses only light blue, which is very easy to spot on yellow bees. Bright orange or yellow are good colors for black bees. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 21:59:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Pricing locally produced honey In-Reply-To: <8A643ADA07F548C799AD106A10331029@bobPC> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 25-Nov-08, at 7:22 PM, Bob Harrison wrote: > What I find funny when talking to producers of so called raw honey > is they > use a hot heated knife to remove the cappings. Does not a hot knife > hot > enough to remove cappings from both sides heat the honey? I think > so which > would make the honey not raw. Hi Bob and all I totally agree with you. When my uncapping knife packed it in a few years ago I decided to use an uncapping fork and have used that method only for years. My decision was made even easier when I learned they wanted $150 for a new uncapping knife. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:48:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US In-Reply-To: <8E9D70DA2AEB44F0B02B184BB48DC9F1@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I trust what they are seeing and I believe California trusts what I see. Sure do Bob. Your experience is more akin to what Higes reports from Spain. It's hard to believe that our strains are different, what with me being exposed in almond pollination--U.S. commercial bee diseases are pretty well homogenized in Calif. Bob, I'm really curious about the nutritional connection. Have you tried testing colonies fed a good pollen supplement continuously to see if that has an effect (would have to start before infection gets out of hand). I'm wondering if it could have to do with your corn pollen, or something else regional. I'm just back from the scope. I moved 100+ plus colonies from summertime irrigated alfalfa last night to winter yards this morning. The last load tested zero nosema from net samples, this one tested about 1M spores. None of the yards has ever been treated for nosema. I'm clearly in your group of those beekeepers who *have* N. ceranae, but it acts like a different animal here during the summer. If we could figure out why your bees are more affected than mine, we might be able to start making sense of this critter! Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:45:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US Comments: To: deealusby1@aol.com In-Reply-To: <8E9D70DA2AEB44F0B02B184BB48DC9F1@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Harrison: The editor of a bee magazine sent the information to me. =A0=A0=20 =A0 Just an FYI....Tony Jadczak, State inspector from Maine, submitted samp= les of bees to USDA he collected in 1985 to check for T mites while in Maine for B= Berry pollination...tests recently ran show that 30% had NC back then...this just fyi...maybe puts a different spin on colony deaths in the last 25 years....= or not. Reply: Well then, like I said with samples still on file in many places then here'= s some more places/writings Bob you or others might want to be reminded of.= If nothing else, you can read in your old magazines/publications many of u= s still have,=A0and compare to what you are physicaly seeing in your hives.= =20 =A0 Thanks for pulling this back up for me so here's more for you. =A0 Dee- =A0 =A0 =A0 Farrar, C.L. 1947. Nosema losses in package bees as related to queen supersedure and hon= ey yields. Journal of Economic entomology 40:333-338 =A0 Jay, S.C. 1962. A survey of nosema disease in package bees, queens, and attendant bee= s entering Manitoba (1963-1966) Entomol Society of Manitoba proceedings 22:= 61-64 =A0 Jaycox, E.R. 1960. Surveys for nosema disease of honeybees in Calif. Journal Economic En= tomology 53:95-98 =A0 Lehnert, T. and Shimanuki, H 1973 Production of Nosema-free bees in the South. ABJ 113:381-382 =A0 Shimanuki, H., and Knox, D 1973 Transmission of nosema disease from infected workers of the honeybee, = to queens in queen mailing cages. ABJ 113: 413-414 =A0 Michael, A.S. 1974 Status of the Joint United States-Canada Nosema Disease Committee. ABJ= 114:291-292, 300 =A0 Moeller, F. E. 1956 The behavior of nsema-infected bees affecting their position in the wi= nter cluster. Journal of Economic Entomology 49:743-745 =A0 1962 Nosema control in package bees. ABJ 102:390-392 =A0 1972 Effectsof emerging bees and of winter flights of nosema disease in hon= ey bee colonies. Journal of Apicultural Research 11:117-120 =A0 Moffett, J.O. and Wilson, W. T. 1971 The viability and infectivity of frozen nosema spores. ABJ 111:55-70 =A0 Mussen, etal 1975 Enzootic levels of nosema disease in the continental United States. AB= J 115:48-50 =A0 Oertel, E. 1964 Nosema disease in the Baton Rouge Area. Gleanings in Bee Culture 92:42= 7-437 =A0 Shimanuki, H etal 1973 transmission of nosema disease from infected honey bee workers to quee= ns in mating nuclei. Journal of Ecnnomic Entomology 66:777-778 =A0 White, G. F.=20 1919 Nosema disease. U.S. Dept Agric Bulletin 780, 59 pp=0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:16:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10811261848n5b155b15r226c41695a7992fb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy If we could figure out why your bees are more affected than mine, we might be able to start making sense of this critter! =A0 Reply: Randy/Bob, not that I would say this, but I am....our honeybees and hives r= eact to the way we manage them in the field working up and down, besides mo= ving which changes flora, and also the way we treat and feed them. All this= has impact on the inter/intra-relationships of all living organisms within= our colonies that include beneficial bacteria, fungi, viruses, etc that ev= olved together and co-exist. You cannot treat one without treating all and = thus breaking the balance and this has been tete tete for years now it seem= s, and reason for my stand on NO dopes in a hive, and no artificial feeds. = You might not like it, but you cannot overcome problems with soundbite trea= tments and research fwiw...........at least in my point of view! You must l= ook at the whole-bee picture and not for short durations....but for the lon= g-haul. =A0 Anyway, just had to add that! =A0 Dee=20 =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:49:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Nosema hair splitting In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter Borst: just like you claimed for varroa mites and of course, honey bees were in the Americas "all along" as well. =A0 Reply: I still claim this Peter and always will,... from analysis of files I have = and in archives in libraries in Washington D. C.and other places. You see m= ites are identified by point of infestation and as we go more modern, more = breakouts/determinations seem to fall out with new names then given as we k= eep noting differences in size (besides it time frame in so doing!), shape,= placement, etc. As for honeybees in the Americas prior to so-called Columb= us, well many various sites and artifacts have been found from more then on= e early civilization here with links to bees; besides a major continent/lan= dmass cannot split apart and all have except one!....even if man hasn't tra= velled so much. =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:05:25 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob commented on dead bees in the feeder of Nosema affected hives. Is that a common experience? If so I wasn't aware of it. I have noted when feeding using plastic frame feeders, in some hives many bees drown in the syrup, yet most others in the same apiary do not, and their feeders are clean. I assumed this was because the internal surface of some feeders was too shiny for bees to grip and they fell into the syrup. So equipped all feeders with plastic ladders made from "Gutterguard" mesh. Reduced the problem but didn't completely fix it. Am I missing the possibility/probability that syrup drowning is indicative that these hives have a Nosema problem? And if so, would this hold for Nosema apis, since testing has revealed that although N.ceranae is present in some eastern Australian states it is not present here in Western Australia, although N. apis is. (I should add that we do not observe any extreme Nosemosis symptoms, although variations in productivity within the apiary are usually ascribed to other causes, perhaps in error?) I guess I will have to drag the microscope out from under the bed, and start testing! PeterD ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:13:09 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: using queen cells and timing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fascinating post Juanse....I'm off to the ag. chemicals store straight after lodging this reply! Between you and Peter Borst, you may have changed my whole approach to use of queen cells in queen rearing. (I'll call into the model planes shop for the paint on my way to get the ammonium nitrate). You never know...I could end up laughing all the way to the bank! PeterD ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:37:14 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris asked: > a) The bees look rather like Amm, dark with narrow tomenta. Is it their > reputation for bad temper that made the operator wear gloves? Yes, working towards A.m.m. They are very good tempered - these can be worked without smoke and probably without a veil, although I do not risk that. The reasons for the gloves are twofold: first propolis - we do not want it all over the steering wheel etc when moving between apiaries second hygiene - we use soda wash to clean gloves and hive tool after each hive, and discard the disposable gloves after each apiary. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 23:14:46 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Geoff Manning Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "randy oliver" > I'm wondering if it could have to do with your corn pollen, or something > else regional. In Australia we don't have mites. And we enjoy a mild climate. With that out of the way I am always amazed at how little attention pollen gets on this list. Whenever, at least competent Oz beekeepers talk about bees, pollen is part and parcel of that conversation. After all pollen is the source of almost all the bees nutrition. The boss of a leading outfit I worked for years ago, preparatory to writing up his daily diary, would invariably ring up that night if he had not been out with us. Always was asked the question, "what was the pollen like"? To paraphrase an American politician-its the pollen stupid. To adhere to the thread. We regard pollen or lack of it, as a major part of the nosema story. Geoff Manning ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 23:58:49 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Geoff Manning Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I said amongst other things- We regard pollen or lack of it, as a major part of the nosema story. And we don't use Fumigillin! Geoff Manning ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 07:14:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: using queen cells and timing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have always assumed that, say, a 10 day old queen cell in a hive with queen cells that are younger would hatch out first and most likely tear down the other cells. I have never observed it to be otherwise. Since only a small percentage of my nucs that are recieving queen cells have cells already started i could have overlooked the impact. I would like to hear more on this. I have howevre definitely noticed a tendency to not build new queen cells if one is already present. Juanse, Brother Adams wrote the following: "I have found that a queen which emerges in an incubator is never as good as one who spends her first few hours in her normal environment.....So also a queen which has been caged for any length of time is seldom, if ever as good as one which has never been confined-the the extent of the injury depends on the age and condition of the queen when she was confined." From "Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey" page 89 by Brother Adams ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:32:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: using queen cells and timing Comments: To: Peter Detchon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:13:09 +0900, Peter Detchon wrote: > (I'll call into the model planes shop for the paint on my way to get the ammonium nitrate). I just want to correct a small but potentially misleading typo in my post. I wrote "old based paint" where it should have been "oil based paint". I think the oil based stuff sticks better and is perhaps safer for the queen. Modern water based paints and "white out", for example, have weird stuff in them. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:39:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Nosema hair splitting In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dee Lusby wrote: >I still claim this Peter and always will,... Well, Dee, this is where we part company. In science, as in life, one must be willing to drop everything one believes in the face of incontrovertible evidence. To not do so is to live in a fantasy. Back to subject of hair-splitting, a very interesting discussion on the "Species problem" at Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem with great references like: Gregg JR. 1950. Taxonomy, language and reality. American Naturalist 84:419-435. Burma BH. 1954. Reality, existence, and classification: A discussion of the species problem. Mayden RL. 1997. A hierarchy of species concepts: The denouement in the saga of the species problem. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:54:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: using queen cells and timing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 07:14:53 -0600, John & Christy Horton wrote: >I have always assumed that, say, a 10 day old queen cell in a hive with >queen cells that are younger would hatch out first and most likely tear down >the other cells. I have never observed it to be otherwise. Not true. Bees frequently keep queens trapped in queen cells for several days after others have hatched, for the queen's protection one would assume, although they may have "preferences" as we now know. Regarding Brother Adam's comments, I have a great deal of respect and admiration for him and what he did, but nobody is always right. As one very experienced beekeeper once told me: "There is a wide range of practices that you can get away with, but it is best not to abuse your prerogatives". Still, it is logical and reasonable to attribute poor queen performance to sloppy queen rearing practices. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 09:15:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: using queen cells and timing In-Reply-To: <003601c95092$23d811e0$2ebb4d0c@greenbripi7wfd> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > I have howevre definitely noticed a tendency to not build new queen cells if >one is already present. I wish I could say this. I have too many virgins rejected in my mating nucs. I give the cell the next day. I know it hatched. The bees destroy my virgin, and raise their own. It seems strength of the nuc...too strong leads to higher rejection of my cells, or the use of cell protectors...same here...has something to do with it. Sometimes I have a significant reduction in the mated queens I can catch from any batch. Mike ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 09:37:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Kirk_Jones?= Subject: Nicolet queen system for raising virgins Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, Juanse wrote: I change from JZBZ cups to Nicolet because this latter system have a nice tube as a queen cage so as to allow the queen to be born caged. The only trick is take the cell out of the cup the day after emergence cause some queen are trapped when going out after feeding in the royal jelly. __________________________________________________________________________ I have been trying out different systems to raise virgins to install in splits. The last spring in Florida I drilled out 2x4's to put in hair rollers and set the JZBZ ripe cells to hatch out in the incubator. Then I would transfer the board into the middle of a powerful hive in the second story between brood frames and feed them. The problem I encountered was trying to pull out the hair roller with the queen in it. They would be in the hole and it was difficult to get them out. I'm interested in what you have tried, Juanse. Could you send me the web address where I could find the Nicolet system? Very interesting. I would appreciate any input on systems to raise virgins for splits with corresponding nuggets of wisdom gained from experience. We get about 75% take on queen cells, sometimes as high as 90+%. The one that don't accept the cell usually make their own queen and some of those are stubby runts. It is time consuming to try to find the virgins at our checkback period (about 18 days after installation is my preference)and I prefer to wait another 5 or 6 days until they are laying and settled down. We use laying queens for the "no-takes" to get them up to speed. see ya, Kirk ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:16:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Nicolet queen system for raising virgins Comments: To: Kirk Jones Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi I could write about this at length, how to make cages, emerging in incubators, emerging in nucs, etc. But while I was looking for a nice picture of a tube type queen cage I stumbled upon this Web Site which might interest you. http://www.vycage.com/ On the other hand, one has to weigh the cost of losing a certain number of queens by introducing cells into nucs _versus_ the additional cost in terms of time and effort trying to avoid such losses through extraordinary measures. Beekeeping is, and always has been, about percentages, nothing is ever perfect. One of my mentors, Shannon Wooten, told me that if you don't have enough queens, you need to raise twice as many as you are. In other words, plan for a 50% shortfall. Good advice in any case. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:49:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Mike_Bassett?= Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 23:49:28 -0000, Peter Edwards wrote: >I am not sure why you would let them draw out the comb - queens are happy to >lay in the box without it being drawn. the instructions I got with the jenter were in German, I had them interpreted and thats what they said to do, and to put wax on the end of the plug. But thinking about it, the queen has no trouble laying in the cells next to the plugs that have no wax, so I guess next year I'll remove the wax from the plugs b/4 inserting and see if it changes anything. thanks mike bassett syracuse n.y. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:17:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US In-Reply-To: <007701c95089$d79752d0$52e1140a@podargus1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Geoff: In Australia we don't have mites. =A0 Reply: Is this your opinion or actual technical truth pertaining to mites from wha= t you have been told or understand? I ask this for I comprehend mites actua= lly being in Australia. Please correct me if I am wrong to thinking this. =A0 Dee =A0=0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:47:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee writes: "You cannot treat one without treating all and thus breaking the balance and this has been tete tete for years now it seems, and reason for my stand on NO dopes in a hive, and no artificial feeds." Happy Thanksgiving Dee and all, Dee, I certainly understand where you are coming from with regard to the complexity of natural balances in biological/ecological systems. However I think it is important to keep in mind that these balances are never static. Having to maintain a static balance between all the macro and micro flora and fauna within the “whole” system would mean certain failure for that system. There is considerable flexibility and resilience within these systems. Flexibility is vital, and yet there are limits to that flexibility as I’m sure everyone knows. That is why, in order to stay well within the limits of what can be considered balanced, it is smart beekeeping to do as little as you think you have to in order to manage your bees and reach whatever goals you have set for yourself. Smart beekeeping also means having a really good, well thought out reason for doing something to a hive, with more than just passing consideration for the long term implications. I think it’s really important to keep in mind also that, everything we do in bee management has an element of experimentation in it. So you are always messing with the balance. You are as natural as you think you can get away with being, but every time you make a split you are violating nature, upsetting the balance as it were. Now, it may be that, in the effort to control everything within the complex biological system which is a bee hive, many have reached a point where they are doing more harm than good, especially in the long term. But it is not necessarily true that anything one might put into a hive that the bees wouldn’t put there themselves is going to “break” the balance past what bees can sustain, even over the long haul. The balance will shift, but the balance shifted when you put your bees into a box on sheets of stamped out wax. Gobble gobble, Steve Noble ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:02:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US In-Reply-To: <007701c95089$d79752d0$52e1140a@podargus1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Geoff, After all pollen is the source of almost all the bees nutrition. Reply: Really? What percentage? No nutrition received from royal jelly or honey? H= ow do you view royal jelly or honey for the bees ongoing nutrition? =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 13:24:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: No varroa in Australia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dee writes: > Please correct me if I am wrong to thinking this. Wrong again! > The Australian Government this [month] announced the sentinel hive program, which will alert authorities when foreign bees potentially carrying varroa arrive, will be funded for the next two years. The tiny varroa mite has wiped out wild-bee populations across the world, most recently in New Zealand. Experts fear if it arrived in Australia, the cost of pollination for crops such as stonefruit, almonds and pome fruit could double overnight. Free pollination from wild bees could become a thing of the past. Honeybee Research and Development Advisory committee chairman Des Cannon said baited hives would attract newly arrived bees, so an extermination could be carried out by the Australian Quarantine Inspection Service. "It would be good if (the sentinel-hive program) were topped up with a baited program," Mr Cannon said. "Our effort (at keeping varroa out) has been good but if you look at what NZ spent on the South Island alone, they spent $800,000 on surveillance." > Agriculture Minister Tony Burke said the Government "recognises the importance of rigorous quarantine and biosecurity measures to protect our valuable agriculture, fisheries and forestry industries. The Australian honeybee industry is fortunate to be free so far of varroa," Mr Burke said. -- November 12, 2008 -- http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 07:36:56 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: using queen cells and timing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote > I think the oil based stuff sticks better and is perhaps safer for the > queen. Modern water based paints and "white out", for example, have weird > stuff in them. I have used "white out" or "liquid paper" as we call it for years now with no observed problems. I think it does not stay on as long as what the paint will do but it serves it purpose. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 13:19:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Nicolet queen system for raising virgins In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kirk, Virgin queen introduction done right should get closer to 95% acceptance, b= ut to do this you don't use rollers, you use 3dram bottles and a simple che= ap chicken incubator. This way you don't have the smell of the workers to d= rop your acceptance level.The incubator also allows for culling to get rid = of queens with deformities or not up to standards wanted in body uniformity= , and attention to race/strain details. =A0 D =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:03:31 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, Geoff (or Trevor) can speak for eastern Australia. Here in Western Australia we definitely do NOT have mites. We take biosecurity very seriously. Sugar rolls testing as well as examination of worker and drone larvae and pupae, is done as part of our annual screening and testing procedures for a number of diseases and parasites. This programme encompasses both commercial and non-commercial beekeepers and is done on both a scheduled and randomised sampling basis. The program isn't cheap, and is funded from a levy paid by all beekeepers and performed by inspectors and laboratories from our state department of Agriculture. The results of this testing as well as inspections of the source apiaries is what enables AQIS (The Australian Quarantine Inspection Service) to sign the required international health certificates for exports of Queens and Package Bees. So in a nutshell, when we say we ain't got mites, you can believe it. If you need further confirmation, ask Randy, 'cos he sure looked closely for them when he was here!! Regards PeterD ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:33:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Happy Thanksgiving! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Happy Thanksgiving to All! I'd especially like to thank Aaron for his time, hard work, and patience in moderating this List! Thanks for Bee-L, Aaron! Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:30:23 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: No varroa in Australia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, The sentinel hive programme is not new, having been in place for quite a few years. What is new, is the Federal Government's appreciation of its value. They have now agreed to fund it, in order to guarantee its continuation. It was previously part funded by state departments and partly by beekeepers, and relied very heavily on volunteers to provide bees and maintain them. As a consequence there were some problems with maintenance of uniform standards. Hopefully the new funding guarantee will enable further expansion of the scheme to more points of entry and more remote regions in Northern Australia. Although this is a "canary in the coalmine" approach it is seen as having value, and is only one of several mechanisms that have been incorporated in our biosecurity efforts. Biosecurity is one of the bigger words in the Australian language, and is on the tip of most beekeepers' tongues here! PeterD ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:36:23 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: Nicolet queen system for raising virgins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, Wow, 3 dram bottles. Neat idea. Presumably it works for you? Have you got any pictures you can send off-list? PeterD ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:03:20 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: using queen cells and timing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message , Peter L Borst writes >I think the oil based stuff sticks better and is perhaps safer for the >queen. Modern water based paints and "white out", for example, have weird >stuff in them. Never seen any ill effects from the 'weird stuff' in the likes of tip-ex for marking. However it has only ended up here as a result of queens purchased, either as trials or breeders, from other peoples units. It does seem to wear off quicker than proper paint. In our own unit we go to Halfords (car and cycle spares outlets) and they have a paint matching service where they mix any colour you like for auto paintwork touch ups. We get it in little bottles with a brush inside the cap, buy three bottles, one for each of the beekeepers to carry around with them, and do the whole unit with that. We ask them to only half fill the bottles so there is only paint on the brush itself and not the length of the brush shaft as well. I note some posts have gone on to how the queen is restrained for marking. We catch her by the wings with the right hand, get her to grip the left hands index finger with her legs, pin at least the two big legs on one side with the thumb so she is immobilised, clip at least the two wings on one side about two thirds back (one side or two, makes no difference), dab on the paint, and drop her back onto the combs. Done. Sounds long but actually its extremely fast and no mess. Reverse the lot if you are left handed of course. ( Include that as I just KNOW someone will come in with that point). -- Murray McGregor ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 05:23:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 27/11/2008 11:32:52 GMT Standard Time, peter.edwards@HOMECALL.CO.UK writes: second hygiene - we use soda wash to clean gloves and hive tool after each hive, and discard the disposable gloves after each apiary. That's good practice. I spent a day doing the rounds with a Bee Inspector, Meg Seymour, recently and that's the way we did it. I also washed my bee suit in bleach and had a spare with me which I used after we had found EFB. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:27:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: using queen cells and timing In-Reply-To: <001e01c950d8$46625fe0$c0adb37c@user96c8c0908f> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It is raining here, so I have more time to write in the middle of an increadible good season. Painting: I also use modeling paint, but bought on a quarter litre jar on a painting store. The trick: any painting based on ENAMEL . Almost odourless and dry very very fast. As a painting tool I use a nail , nailed to a wood handle, then the head of the nail is filed leaving a 1 mm non sharp flat surface. The nail leaves on a hole on top of the pain jar. I also use a "press in cage" bought from Thorne. Again fast and clean. No need to catch the queen. Each beekeeper have one of them an set of paint+nail tool. When checking a hive, if the queen is not painted and we happen to spot her, we paint her. Again fast and clean. Colors: I am stick to international color code: white, red, blue, green, yellow. However as said by PeterB some color work better than other depending on the color of the queen. As I have ALL colors, I have learnt that light color (ie, base color + lots of white) are very easy to spot. I must admit that dark queens with a blue spot look great. I love blue !! :) Brother Adams: Probably he is right and caged queen (ie. born in incubator) are worst than a natural system, but I do not have time. I produce 30% more than what i need and then select the best ones. On a country with an average of 20 kg per hive I am quite happy with an average of 60 kg, plus two nucs per hive in average. Timing: Timing is everything for me. I give the virgin 15 days to mate. After that if not mated I mix the non mated nuc with a mated one on a brood box. I use 5 frames nuc boxes. Only if I have spare virgin I give them a second chance to those nucs. Any drone lying nuc is dissasembled. Bees to the floor, frames to a super. Nitrate: Yes it is a restricted agrochemical because it is used for making bombs. Also restricted here. I ask a farmer friend for it. We use around two kilos per season. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 22:57:49 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Geoff Manning Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dee Lusby" >Reply: >Really? What percentage? No nutrition received from royal jelly or honey? >How do you view royal jelly or honey >for the bees ongoing nutrition? I will rephrase the statement slightly,- After all pollen is the source of almost all the beehives nutrition. The bees can use their body reserves if there is no pollen coming in, subsisting on honey. But before they can effectively work again they must rebuild those reserves. Royal jelly of course is produced in the hive, from food gathered from outside the hive. Geoff Manning ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:03:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Raising the bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Subscribers, As Moderator and list owner I have been taking excessive flack lately from all sides regarding the care and feeding of BEE-L. BEE-L cannot be all things to all people, nothing can. This is a repeat conversation, it is a perennial topic in the archives. Each time things come to a head I remind everyone that although I would like to accommodate everyone, it comes down to as I already stated, BEE-L cannot be all things to all people, so when push comes to shove I have to insist that BEE-L follow the owner's perception of what BEE-L should be. My ideals for BEE-L are posted at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm where among other things readers will find the guidelines for posting at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm which have been suggested reading for as long as I can remember. More important to this posting is the page that outlines misconceptions about what BEE-L is and what BEE-L is not. "Dispelling Common Misconceptions About BEE-L" can be found at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/misconceptions.htm and I urge all subscribers to go there and read it. I will open up BEE-L for the remainder of the weekend for any and all comments. I will weigh all input, although I've considered for years what I want BEE-L to be and I'll state right now that I doubt I will be impacted much by objections that may be raised this weekend. There have been discussions over the years, lists have splintered off in protest, and today there are more lists than I have the time to monitor, and I understand soon there will be another one. So be it. As of midnight Sunday night, Monday morning I will begin to moderate BEE-L as described at honeybeeworld.com. Thereafter, any objections regarding the job I do will be unwelcome in my mailbox. If this is not to the liking of subscribers, there are other lists wher you can participate and other list owners who you can abuse. I apologize for the tone of this post and offer in advance my apologies to BEE-L fans, be they active contributors or silent contributors. Sincerely, Aaron Morris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:41:33 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: spreading diseases by glowes or by hive tool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > second hygiene - we use soda wash to clean gloves and hive tool after > each > hive, and discard the disposable gloves after each apiary. This might help something but in real life it is very, very close to 0. It is more just a show off and gives wrong message to beekeepers. If the beekeeper changes just one frame from hive to another or put an extracted frame from other hive they risk their hive health much more than what they do by not washing the glowes. Deseases ( AFB;EFB ) travel mostly with honey, how much honey is going with glowes from a hive to an other ? With ectracted frame can easily go 50 g. Havent' seen any studies about spreading diseases by hive tool or by gloves. Has someone else seen ? Ari Seppälä Finland ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:45:20 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I will rephrase the statement slightly,- After all pollen is the source > of > almost > all the beehives nutrition. > I could ask if there is any other source of protein to bees than pollen. Anyone know how much there is proteins in nectar ? Honey has, but it comes from pollen in honey. Royal jelly is proteins from pollen, just made into different form. Ari Seppälä Finland ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:01:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: soundbite treatments and research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dee Lusby wrote: > You might not like it, but you cannot overcome problems with soundbite treatments and research fwiw...........at least in my point of view! You have repeatedly used the term "soundbite". I don't really know what you are referring to, but many of us here have spend hundreds of hours explaining in great detail what we see are the problems, potential solutions and various dead-ends. If anyone is prone to sound-bites, it is you. "Nothing hard" -- You wrote What we are doing that can be read by anyone. It is based on honeybee field management on a "wholebee concept" and not doing field management by soundbites in bits and pieces. 1. In a colony that has been restored to health, the natural defense systems of bees are fully operational again 2. No secondary infections by foulbroods, chalk broods, etc., can take place because infected brood will be destroyed by the bee's own natural communal defense system. 3. The size of the worker bee returns to normal and again fits the natural flora of the region. * * * Maybe you would like to explain these in detail. Here you claim that bees have a "natural communal defense system" and that it prevents "secondary infections". Does it prevent nosema? How can the size of the honey bee be related in any way to the size of the "natural flora of the region" if a) the honey bee is not native to the region; and b) flowers come in all sizes, being utilized by creatures from the tiniest insects to birds and bats, etc. ?? * * * Maybe you could explain this: > In areas of complex mongrelization where several races/strains of bees are determined, retrogressive breeding should be a multi-step process. It should start with the separation of yellow races/strains from dark races/strains. Next, beekeepers should separate colour by caste size, to be lastly followed by separation of remaining bees by phisical characteristics other than size. ??? pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 17:29:45 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Re: Raising the bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="ISO-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe it is a case of the Abraham Lincoln quote: "You can please some of the people all the time ............................etc etc! ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:15:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Raising the bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > As Moderator and list owner I have been taking excessive flack lately from all sides regarding the care and feeding of BEE-L. I am sorry to hear this. I have always been a big fan of Bee-L and one of the things I like about it is the even handed moderation. I may not agree with all of the posts, but I think there has been an effort to be fair. Plus, Aaron is a good friend and he deserves credit for his effort, not a ration of shit. I have said repeatedly that I find most unmoderated lists are a waste of time. I am involved with only one other list besides this one and it rarely experiences flame wars despite being unmoderated; no doubt because the topic is not controversial so we seldom disagree on key points. However, disagreement should be seen as the beginning of a instructive and rewarding discussion -- not the end of it. Hoping to keep moving forward Yours truly Peter L Borst ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 17:31:45 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US In-Reply-To: <002b01c95167$f00af0e0$0500000a@ari71aa1cf24c5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1;format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In message <002b01c95167$f00af0e0$0500000a@ari71aa1cf24c5>, Ari Seppälä writes >I could ask if there is any other source of protein to bees than >pollen. Anyone know how much there is proteins in nectar ? Honey has, >but it comes from pollen in honey. Protein levels of up to 0.4% are common, however two types in particular stand out with levels much higher than that. Calluna vulgaris and Leptospermum scoparium (Ling heather and Manuka) normally have protein levels above 1%, sometimes close to 2%. These types are thixotropic, partly as a result. No direct experience with Manuka, but Calluna makes a less than ideal wintering food due to the protein content. The bees are unable to digest it properly and need be void their faeces more often as a result. Most winters this is not an issue but in the event of long periods without flight, esp if combined with other stresses, can result in dysentry. This is where this subject comes back to the thread title...........dysentry spreads nosema (of the apis type at least) fast. . -- Murray McGregor ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:56:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Antimicrobial Defense in Insects MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Antimicrobial Defense and Persistent Infection in Insects Eleanor R. Haine, et al http://www.sciencemag.org > During 400 million years of existence, insects have rarely succumbed to the evolution of microbial resistance against their potent antimicrobial immune defenses. We found that microbial clearance after infection is extremely fast and that induced antimicrobial activity starts to increase only when most of the bacteria (99.5%) have been removed. Our experiments showed that those bacteria that survived exposure to the insect's constitutive immune response were subsequently more resistant to it. These results imply that induced antimicrobial compounds function primarily to protect the insect against the bacteria that persist within their body, rather than to clear microbial infections. > Constitutive defenses, including haemocytes and cytotoxic enzyme cascades, are responsible for "frontline" physiological defense against microbial insults. Our observations imply that induced antimicrobial effectors do not function to clear bacteria, but rather "mop up" those that have survived selection via the host's constitutive defenses ... recent work on Drosophila melanogaster showed that haemocytes, rather than antimicrobial peptides, are responsible for the protection against secondary infection. Comment: This study describes antimicrobial response in insects as the last line of defense. In essence, insects use IPM in employing a tiered response saving the most toxic and possibly most effective responses for the last resort. This probably helps to prevent invading microbes from developing resistance to these, but also may reflect the additional metabolic cost as well as the potential harm that such more sophisticated and toxic responses may inflict on the very organism that delivers them. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:11:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: kirk jones Subject: raising virgins for stocking splits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dee wrote: ________________________________ Virgin queen i= Hi all,=0A=0ADee wrote:=0A________________________________=0AVirgin queen i= ntroduction done right should get closer to 95% acceptance, b=3D=0Aut to do= this you don't use rollers, you use 3dram bottles and a simple che=3D=0Aap= chicken incubator. This way you don't have the smell of the workers to d= =3D=0Arop your acceptance level.The incubator also allows for culling to ge= t rid =3D=0Aof queens with deformities or not up to standards wanted in bod= y uniformity=3D=0A, and attention to race/strain details.=0A_______________= __________________=0A=0AFascinating idea, Dee. Can you share some ideas on = 3 drams bottle holders? Like boring our 1 to 2 inch closed cell foam(blue b= oard)? =0ABTW, do all 3 dram bottles hold a JZBZ cell cup? =0A=0AWould you= suggest that one could put a piece of marshmallow in the top of the jar as= a release mechanism? =0A=0AJuanse did suggest an additive to the smoker. W= as it ammonium nitrate? I was thinking a very thin syrup with anaise oil to= spray on the bees and just immediately release the virgin in splits that w= ere queenless at least a couple days. I have been successful with that. =0A= =0AI'm going to have to build a new incubator or a second one to do the cel= ls in bottles. I just use small refrigerators and put in sensitive thermost= ats(2) and 2 bulbs in parallel with a small fan. =0A=0AI did find some 3 dr= am bottles on eBay. Ebay also had some 3.5 dram bottles for a better price.= They were plastic with a 13/16 opening. I'll have to check the JZBZ cup s= ize to see if it will set on top without falling in. =0A=0Asee ya,=0Ak=0A= =0A=0A Kirk Jones www.benzieplayboyz.com=0Awww.sleepingbearfarms.com=0A= =0A=0Agreetings from Northern Michigan!=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________________= ___________=0AFrom: BEE-L automatic digest system =0ATo: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu=0ASent: Friday, November 28, 2008 12:= 00:01 AM=0ASubject: BEE-L Digest - 26 Nov 2008 to 27 Nov 2008 (#2008-328)= =0A=0AThere are 26 messages totalling 900 lines in this issue.=0A=0ATopics = of the day:=0A=0A 1. Nosema Ceranae in US (8)=0A 2. Nosema hair splitting= (2)=0A 3. Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder=0A 4. using queen c= ells and timing (6)=0A 5. The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abro= ad (2)=0A 6. Nicolet queen system for raising virgins (4)=0A 7. No varroa= in Australia (2)=0A 8. Happy Thanksgiving!=0A=0A*************************= ******************************=0A* Search the BEE-L archives at: = *=0A* http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *= =0A*******************************************************=0A=0A=0A=0A-----= -----------------------------------------------------------------=0A=0ADate= : Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:45:22 -0800=0AFrom: Dee Lusby =0ASubject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US=0A=0ABob Harrison:=0AThe e= ditor of a bee magazine sent the information to me.=0A=3DA0=3DA0=3D20=0A=3D= A0 Just an FYI....Tony Jadczak, State inspector from Maine, submitted samp= =3D=0Ales of=0Abees to USDA he collected in 1985 to check for T mites while= in Maine for B=3D=0ABerry=0Apollination...tests recently ran show that 30%= had NC back then...this just=0Afyi...maybe puts a different spin on colony= deaths in the last 25 years....=3D=0Aor=0Anot.=0A=0AReply:=0AWell then, li= ke I said with samples still on file in many places then here'=3D=0As some = more places/writings Bob you or others might want to be reminded of.=3D=0AI= f nothing else, you can read in your old magazines/publications many of u= =3D=0As still have,=3DA0and compare to what you are physicaly seeing in you= r hives.=3D=0A=3D20=0A=3DA0=0AThanks for pulling this back up for me so her= e's more for you.=0A=3DA0=0ADee-=0A=3DA0=0A=3DA0=0A=3DA0=0AFarrar, C.L.=0A1= 947. Nosema losses in package bees as related to queen supersedure and hon= =3D=0Aey yields. Journal of Economic entomology 40:333-338=0A=3DA0=0AJay, S= .C.=0A1962. A survey of nosema disease in package bees, queens, and attenda= nt bee=3D=0As entering Manitoba (1963-1966) Entomol Society of Manitoba pro= ceedings 22:=3D=0A61-64=0A=3DA0=0AJaycox, E.R.=0A1960. Surveys for nosema d= isease of honeybees in Calif. Journal Economic En=3D=0Atomology 53:95-98=0A= =3DA0=0ALehnert, T. and Shimanuki, H=0A1973 Production of Nosema-free bees = in the South. ABJ 113:381-382=0A=3DA0=0AShimanuki, H., and Knox, D=0A1973 T= ransmission of nosema disease from infected workers of the honeybee, =3D=0A= to queens in queen mailing cages. ABJ 113: 413-414=0A=3DA0=0AMichael, A.S.= =0A1974 Status of the Joint United States-Canada Nosema Disease Committee. = ABJ=3D=0A114:291-292, 300=0A=3DA0=0AMoeller, F. E.=0A1956 The behavior of n= sema-infected bees affecting their position in the wi=3D=0Anter cluster. Jo= urnal of Economic Entomology 49:743-745=0A=3DA0=0A1962 Nosema control in pa= ckage bees. ABJ 102:390-392=0A=3DA0=0A1972 Effectsof emerging bees and of w= inter flights of nosema disease in hon=3D=0Aey bee colonies. Journal of Api= cultural Research 11:117-120=0A=3DA0=0AMoffett, J.O. and Wilson, W. T.=0A19= 71 The viability and infectivity of frozen nosema spores. ABJ 111:55-70=0A= =3DA0=0AMussen, etal=0A1975 Enzootic levels of nosema disease in the contin= ental United States. AB=3D=0AJ 115:48-50=0A=3DA0=0AOertel, E.=0A1964 Nosema= disease in the Baton Rouge Area. Gleanings in Bee Culture 92:42=3D=0A7-437= =0A=3DA0=0AShimanuki, H etal=0A1973 transmission of nosema disease from inf= ected honey bee workers to quee=3D=0Ans in mating nuclei. Journal of Ecnnom= ic Entomology 66:777-778=0A=3DA0=0AWhite, G. F.=3D20=0A1919 Nosema disease.= U.S. Dept Agric Bulletin 780, 59 pp=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A =0A=0A************= *******************************************=0A* Search the BEE-L archives a= t: *=0A* http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S= 1=3D3Dbee-l *=0A*******************************************************=0A= =0A------------------------------=0A=0ADate: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:16:22 -= 0800=0AFrom: Dee Lusby =0ASubject: Re: Nose= ma Ceranae in US=0A=0ARandy=0AIf we could figure out why your bees are more= affected than mine, we might=0Abe able to start making sense of this critt= er!=0A=3DA0=0AReply:=0ARandy/Bob, not that I would say this, but I am....ou= r honeybees and hives r=3D=0Aeact to the way we manage them in the field wo= rking up and down, besides mo=3D=0Aving which changes flora, and also the w= ay we treat and feed them. All this=3D=0Ahas impact on the inter/intra-rela= tionships of all living organisms within=3D=0Aour colonies that include ben= eficial bacteria, fungi, viruses, etc that ev=3D=0Aolved together and co-ex= ist. You cannot treat one without treating all and =3D=0Athus breaking the = balance and this has been tete tete for years now it seem=3D=0As, and reaso= n for my stand on NO dopes in a hive, and no artificial feeds. =3D=0AYou mi= ght not like it, but you cannot overcome problems with soundbite trea=3D=0A= tments and research fwiw...........at least in my point of view! You must l= =3D=0Aook at the whole-bee picture and not for short durations....but for t= he lon=3D=0Ag-haul.=0A=3DA0=0AAnyway, just had to add that!=0A=3DA0=0ADee= =3D20=0A=0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A =0A=0A*************************************= ******************=0A* Search the BEE-L archives at: = *=0A* http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3D3Dbee-l *=0A*********= **********************************************=0A=0A-----------------------= -------=0A=0ADate: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:49:14 -0800=0AFrom: Dee Lusby = =0ASubject: Re: Nosema hair splitting=0A=0APet= er Borst:=0Ajust like you claimed for varroa mites and of course, honey bee= s were=0Ain the Americas "all along" as well.=0A=3DA0=0AReply:=0AI still cl= aim this Peter and always will,... from analysis of files I have =3D=0Aand = in archives in libraries in Washington D. C.and other places. You see m=3D= =0Aites are identified by point of infestation and as we go more modern, mo= re =3D=0Abreakouts/determinations seem to fall out with new names then give= n as we k=3D=0Aeep noting differences in size (besides it time frame in so = doing!), shape,=3D=0Aplacement, etc. As for honeybees in the Americas prior= to so-called Columb=3D=0Aus, well many various sites and artifacts have be= en found from more then on=3D=0Ae early civilization here with links to bee= s; besides a major continent/lan=3D=0Admass cannot split apart and all have= except one!....even if man hasn't tra=3D=0Avelled so much.=0A=3DA0=0ADee= =0A=0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A =0A=0A******************************************= *************=0A* Search the BEE-L archives at: *=0A*= http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3D3Dbee-l *=0A**************= *****************************************=0A=0A----------------------------= --=0A=0ADate: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:05:25 +0900=0AFrom: Peter Detchon <= homesteadhoney@WN.COM.AU>=0ASubject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees i= n feeder=0A=0ABob commented on dead bees in the feeder of Nosema affected h= ives.=0AIs that a common experience? If so I wasn't aware of it. I have not= ed when =0Afeeding using plastic frame feeders, in some hives many bees dro= wn in the =0Asyrup, yet most others in the same apiary do not, and their fe= eders are =0Aclean.=0A=0AI assumed this was because the internal surface of= some feeders was too =0Ashiny for bees to grip and they fell into the syru= p. So equipped all feeders =0Awith plastic ladders made from "Gutterguard" = mesh. Reduced the problem but =0Adidn't completely fix it.=0A=0AAm I missin= g the possibility/probability that syrup drowning is indicative =0Athat the= se hives have a Nosema problem?=0AAnd if so, would this hold for Nosema api= s, since testing has revealed that =0Aalthough N.ceranae is present in some= eastern Australian states it is not =0Apresent here in Western Australia, = although N. apis is.=0A(I should add that we do not observe any extreme Nos= emosis symptoms, =0Aalthough variations in productivity within the apiary a= re usually ascribed =0Ato other causes, perhaps in error?)=0A=0AI guess I w= ill have to drag the microscope out from under the bed, and start =0Atestin= g!=0A=0APeterD =0A=0A******************************************************= *=0A* Search the BEE-L archives at: *=0A* http://list= serv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A****************************= ***************************=0A=0A------------------------------=0A=0ADate: = Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:13:09 +0900=0AFrom: Peter Detchon =0ASubject: Re: using queen cells and timing=0A=0AFascinating po= st Juanse....I'm off to the ag. chemicals store straight after =0Alodging t= his reply! Between you and Peter Borst, you may have changed my =0Awhole ap= proach to use of queen cells in queen rearing. (I'll call into the =0Amodel= planes shop for the paint on my way to get the ammonium nitrate).=0AYou ne= ver know...I could end up laughing all the way to the bank!=0A=0APeterD =0A= =0A*******************************************************=0A* Search the B= EE-L archives at: *=0A* http://listserv.albany.edu:80= 80/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A**********************************************= *********=0A=0A------------------------------=0A=0ADate: Thu, 27 Nov 200= 8 08:37:14 -0000=0AFrom: Peter Edwards =0A= Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad=0A=0AChris = asked:=0A=0A> a) The bees look rather like Amm, dark with narrow tomenta. = Is it their=0A> reputation for bad temper that made the operator wear glov= es?=0A=0AYes, working towards A.m.m.=0A=0AThey are very good tempered - the= se can be worked without smoke and probably =0Awithout a veil, although I d= o not risk that. The reasons for the gloves are =0Atwofold:=0Afirst propol= is - we do not want it all over the steering wheel etc when =0Amoving betwe= en apiaries=0Asecond hygiene - we use soda wash to clean gloves and hive to= ol after each =0Ahive, and discard the disposable gloves after each apiary.= =0ABest wishes=0A=0APeter Edwards=0Abeekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.frees= erve.co.uk=0Awww.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/=0A=0A****************= ***************************************=0A* Search the BEE-L archives at: = *=0A* http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3D= bee-l *=0A*******************************************************=0A=0A----= --------------------------=0A=0ADate: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 23:14:46 +1100=0A= From: Geoff Manning =0ASubject: Re: Nosema Ceranae = in US=0A=0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: "randy oliver"=0A=0A=0A> I= 'm wondering if it could have to do with your corn pollen, or something=0A>= else regional.=0A=0AIn Australia we don't have mites. And we enjoy a mild= climate. With that=0Aout of the way I am always amazed at how little atte= ntion pollen gets on=0Athis list.=0A=0AWhenever, at least competent Oz beek= eepers talk about bees, pollen is part=0Aand parcel of that conversation. = After all pollen is the source of almost=0Aall the bees nutrition.=0A=0AThe= boss of a leading outfit I worked for years ago, preparatory to writing=0A= up his daily diary, would invariably ring up that night if he had not been= =0Aout with us. Always was asked the question, "what was the pollen like"?= =0A=0ATo paraphrase an American politician-its the pollen stupid.=0A=0ATo a= dhere to the thread. We regard pollen or lack of it, as a major part of=0A= the nosema story.=0A=0AGeoff Manning=0A=0A*********************************= **********************=0A* Search the BEE-L archives at: = *=0A* http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A*******= ************************************************=0A=0A---------------------= ---------=0A=0ADate: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 23:58:49 +1100=0AFrom: Geoff Ma= nning =0ASubject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US=0A=0AI said= amongst other things-=0A=0AWe regard pollen or lack of it, as a major part= of=0Athe nosema story.=0A=0AAnd we don't use Fumigillin!=0A=0AGeoff Mannin= g=0A=0A*******************************************************=0A* Search t= he BEE-L archives at: *=0A* http://listserv.albany.ed= u:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A******************************************= *************=0A=0A------------------------------=0A=0ADate: Thu, 27 Nov= 2008 07:14:53 -0600=0AFrom: John & Christy Horton =0ASubject: using queen cells and timing=0A=0AI have always assumed that= , say, a 10 day old queen cell in a hive with=0Aqueen cells that are young= er would hatch out first and most likely tear down=0Athe other cells. I hav= e never observed it to be otherwise.=0ASince only a small percentage of my = nucs that are recieving queen cells have=0Acells already started i could ha= ve overlooked the impact.=0A=0AI would like to hear more on this.=0A=0AI h= ave howevre definitely noticed a tendency to not build new queen cells if= =0Aone is already present.=0A=0A=0AJuanse, Brother Adams wrote the followin= g:=0A"I have found that a queen which emerges in an incubator is never as g= ood as=0Aone who spends her first few hours in her normal environment.....S= o also a=0Aqueen which has been caged for any length of time is seldom, if = ever as good=0Aas one which has never been confined-the the extent of the i= njury depends on=0Athe age and condition of the queen when she was confined= ."=0AFrom=0A"Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey" page 89=0Aby=0ABrother Adams=0A= =0A*******************************************************=0A* Search the B= EE-L archives at: *=0A* http://listserv.albany.edu:80= 80/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A**********************************************= *********=0A=0A------------------------------=0A=0ADate: Thu, 27 Nov 200= 8 08:32:12 -0500=0AFrom: =3D?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?=3D =0ASubject: Re: using queen cells and timing=0A=0AOn Thu, 27 Nov= 2008 15:13:09 +0900, Peter Detchon =0Awrote:=0A= =0A> (I'll call into the model planes shop for the paint on my way to get t= he=0Aammonium nitrate).=0A=0AI just want to correct a small but potentially= misleading typo in my post. I=0Awrote "old based paint" where it should ha= ve been "oil based paint". =0A=0AI think the oil based stuff sticks better = and is perhaps safer for the=0Aqueen. Modern water based paints and "white = out", for example, have weird=0Astuff in them.=0A=0Apb=0A=0A***************= ****************************************=0A* Search the BEE-L archives at: = *=0A* http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1= =3Dbee-l *=0A*******************************************************=0A=0A-= -----------------------------=0A=0ADate: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:39:42 -0500= =0AFrom: Peter L Borst =0ASubject: Re: Nosema hai= r splitting=0A=0ADee Lusby wrote:=0A>I still claim this Peter and always wi= ll,...=0A=0AWell, Dee, this is where we part company. In science, as in lif= e, one=0Amust be willing to drop everything one believes in the face of=0Ai= ncontrovertible evidence. To not do so is to live in a fantasy.=0A=0ABack t= o subject of hair-splitting, a very interesting discussion on=0Athe "Specie= s problem" at Wikipedia=0A=0Ahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem= =0A=0Awith great references like:=0A=0AGregg JR. 1950. Taxonomy, language a= nd reality. American Naturalist 84:419-435.=0A=0ABurma BH. 1954. Reality, e= xistence, and classification: A discussion=0Aof the species problem.=0A=0AM= ayden RL. 1997. A hierarchy of species concepts: The denouement in=0Athe sa= ga of the species problem.=0A=0A*******************************************= ************=0A* Search the BEE-L archives at: *=0A* = http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A*****************= **************************************=0A=0A------------------------------= =0A=0ADate: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:54:13 -0500=0AFrom: =3D?UTF-8?Q?Peter= _L_Borst?=3D =0ASubject: Re: using queen cells and t= iming=0A=0AOn Thu, 27 Nov 2008 07:14:53 -0600, John & Christy Horton=0A wrote:=0A=0A>I have always assumed that, say, a 10 da= y old queen cell in a hive with=0A>queen cells that are younger would hatch= out first and most likely tear down=0A>the other cells. I have never obser= ved it to be otherwise.=0A=0ANot true. Bees frequently keep queens trapped = in queen cells for several=0Adays after others have hatched, for the queen'= s protection one would assume,=0Aalthough they may have "preferences" as we= now know.=0A=0ARegarding Brother Adam's comments, I have a great deal of r= espect and=0Aadmiration for him and what he did, but nobody is always right= . As one very=0Aexperienced beekeeper once told me: =0A=0A"There is a wide = range of practices that you can get away with, but it is=0Abest not to abus= e your prerogatives". =0A=0AStill, it is logical and reasonable to attribut= e poor queen performance to=0Asloppy queen rearing practices. =0A=0Apb=0A= =0A*******************************************************=0A* Search the B= EE-L archives at: *=0A* http://listserv.albany.edu:80= 80/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A**********************************************= *********=0A=0A------------------------------=0A=0ADate: Thu, 27 Nov 200= 8 09:15:08 -0500=0AFrom: Michael Palmer =0ASubject= : Re: using queen cells and timing=0A=0A> I have howevre definitely notice= d a tendency to not build new queen cells if=0A>one is already present.=0A= =0A=0AI wish I could say this. I have too many virgins rejected in my =0Ama= ting nucs. I give the cell the next day. I know it hatched. The =0Abees des= troy my virgin, and raise their own. It seems strength of the =0Anuc...too = strong leads to higher rejection of my cells, or the use of =0Acell protect= ors...same here...has something to do with it.=0A=0ASometimes I have a sign= ificant reduction in the mated queens I can =0Acatch from any batch.=0AMike= =0A=0A*******************************************************=0A* Search t= he BEE-L archives at: *=0A* http://listserv.albany.ed= u:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A******************************************= *************=0A=0A------------------------------=0A=0ADate: Thu, 27 Nov= 2008 09:37:23 -0500=0AFrom: =3D?UTF-8?Q?Kirk_Jones?=3D =0ASubject: Nicolet queen system for raising virgins=0A=0AHi all,= =0A=0AJuanse wrote:=0A=0AI change from JZBZ cups to Nicolet because this la= tter system have a nice=0Atube as a queen cage so as to allow the queen to = be born caged. The only=0Atrick is take the cell out of the cup the day aft= er emergence cause some=0Aqueen are trapped when going out after feeding in= the royal jelly.=0A_______________________________________________________= ___________________=0A=0AI have been trying out different systems to raise = virgins to install in=0Asplits. The last spring in Florida I drilled out 2x= 4's to put in hair=0Arollers and set the JZBZ ripe cells to hatch out in th= e incubator. Then I=0Awould transfer the board into the middle of a powerfu= l hive in the second=0Astory between brood frames and feed them. =0A=0AThe = problem I encountered was trying to pull out the hair roller with the=0Aque= en in it. They would be in the hole and it was difficult to get them out. = =0A=0AI'm interested in what you have tried, Juanse. Could you send me the = web=0Aaddress where I could find the Nicolet system? Very interesting. =0A= =0AI would appreciate any input on systems to raise virgins for splits with= =0Acorresponding nuggets of wisdom gained from experience. =0A=0AWe get abo= ut 75% take on queen cells, sometimes as high as 90+%. The one=0Athat don't= accept the cell usually make their own queen and some of those=0Aare stubb= y runts. It is time consuming to try to find the virgins at our=0Acheckback= period (about 18 days after installation is my preference)and I=0Aprefer t= o wait another 5 or 6 days until they are laying and settled down.=0AWe use= laying queens for the "no-takes" to get them up to speed.=0A=0Asee ya,=0AK= irk=0A=0A*******************************************************=0A* Search= the BEE-L archives at: *=0A* http://listserv.albany.= edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A****************************************= ***************=0A=0A------------------------------=0A=0ADate: Thu, 27 N= ov 2008 10:16:01 -0500=0AFrom: =3D?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?=3D =0ASubject: Re: Nicolet queen system for raising virgins=0A=0AH= i=0A=0AI could write about this at length, how to make cages, emerging in= =0Aincubators, emerging in nucs, etc. But while I was looking for a nice=0A= picture of a tube type queen cage I stumbled upon this Web Site which might= =0Ainterest you.=0A=0Ahttp://www.vycage.com/=0A=0AOn the other hand, one ha= s to weigh the cost of losing a certain number of=0Aqueens by introducing c= ells into nucs _versus_ the additional cost in terms=0Aof time and effort t= rying to avoid such losses through extraordinary measures.=0A=0ABeekeeping = is, and always has been, about percentages, nothing is ever=0Aperfect. One = of my mentors, Shannon Wooten, told me that if you don't have=0Aenough quee= ns, you need to raise twice as many as you are. =0A=0AIn other words, plan = for a 50% shortfall. Good advice in any case.=0A=0Apb=0A=0A****************= ***************************************=0A* Search the BEE-L archives at: = *=0A* http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3D= bee-l *=0A*******************************************************=0A=0A----= --------------------------=0A=0ADate: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:49:59 -0500=0A= From: =3D?windows-1252?Q?Mike_Bassett?=3D =0AS= ubject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad=0A=0AOn Wed,= 26 Nov 2008 23:49:28 -0000, Peter Edwards =0A wrote:=0A=0A=0A>I am not sure why you would let them draw out the comb - = queens are happy =0Ato=0A>lay in the box without it being drawn. =0A=0Athe= instructions I got with the jenter were in German, I had them =0Ainterpret= ed and thats what they said to do, and to put wax on the end of =0Athe plug= . But thinking about it, the queen has no trouble laying in the =0Acells n= ext to the plugs that have no wax, so I guess next year I'll remove =0Athe = wax from the plugs b/4 inserting and see if it changes anything.=0A=0Athank= s mike bassett syracuse n.y.=0A=0A*****************************************= **************=0A* Search the BEE-L archives at: *=0A= * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A***************= ****************************************=0A=0A-----------------------------= -=0A=0ADate: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:17:48 -0800=0AFrom: Dee Lusby =0ASubject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US=0A=0AGeoff:=0AI= n Australia we don't have mites.=0A=3DA0=0AReply:=0AIs this your opinion or= actual technical truth pertaining to mites from wha=3D=0At you have been t= old or understand? I ask this for I comprehend mites actua=3D=0Ally being i= n Australia. Please correct me if I am wrong to thinking this.=0A=3DA0=0ADe= e=0A=0A=3DA0=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A =0A=0A************************************= *******************=0A* Search the BEE-L archives at: = *=0A* http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3D3Dbee-l *=0A********= ***********************************************=0A=0A----------------------= --------=0A=0ADate: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:47:05 -0500=0AFrom: =3D?windo= ws-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?=3D =0ASubject: Re: Nosema Cera= nae in US=0A=0ADee writes: "You cannot treat one without treating all and = thus breaking =0Athe balance and this has been tete tete for years now it s= eems, and reason =0Afor my stand on NO dopes in a hive, and no artificial f= eeds."=0A=0AHappy Thanksgiving Dee and all,=0A Dee, I certainly understa= nd where you are coming from with regard to =0Athe complexity of natural ba= lances in biological/ecological systems. =0AHowever I think it is importan= t to keep in mind that these balances are =0Anever static. Having to maint= ain a static balance between all the macro =0Aand micro flora and fauna wit= hin the =93whole=94 system would mean certain =0Afailure for that system. T= here is considerable flexibility and resilience =0Awithin these systems. F= lexibility is vital, and yet there are limits to =0Athat flexibility as I= =92m sure everyone knows. That is why, in order to stay =0Awell within the= limits of what can be considered balanced, it is smart =0Abeekeeping to do= as little as you think you have to in order to manage your =0Abees and rea= ch whatever goals you have set for yourself. Smart beekeeping =0Aalso mean= s having a really good, well thought out reason for doing =0Asomething to a= hive, with more than just passing consideration for the long =0Aterm impli= cations. I think it=92s really important to keep in mind also =0Athat, eve= rything we do in bee management has an element of experimentation =0Ain it.= =0A So you are always messing with the balance. You are as natural a= s you =0Athink you can get away with being, but every time you make a split= you are =0Aviolating nature, upsetting the balance as it were. Now, it ma= y be that, =0Ain the effort to control everything within the complex biolog= ical system =0Awhich is a bee hive, many have reached a point where they ar= e doing more =0Aharm than good, especially in the long term. But it is not= necessarily =0Atrue that anything one might put into a hive that the bees = wouldn=92t put =0Athere themselves is going to =93break=94 the balance past= what bees can =0Asustain, even over the long haul. The balance will shift= , but the balance =0Ashifted when you put your bees into a box on sheets of= stamped out wax.=0A=0AGobble gobble,=0A=0ASteve Noble=0A =0A=0A****= ***************************************************=0A* Search the BEE-L ar= chives at: *=0A* http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-= bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A*****************************************************= **=0A=0A------------------------------=0A=0ADate: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:02= :06 -0800=0AFrom: Dee Lusby =0ASubject: Re:= Nosema Ceranae in US=0A=0AGeoff,=0AAfter all pollen is the source of almos= t=0Aall the bees nutrition.=0A=0AReply:=0AReally? What percentage? No nutri= tion received from royal jelly or honey? H=3D=0Aow do you view royal jelly = or honey for the bees ongoing nutrition?=0A=3DA0=0ADee=0A=0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A= =0A=0A*******************************************************=0A* Sea= rch the BEE-L archives at: *=0A* http://listserv.alba= ny.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3D3Dbee-l *=0A***********************************= ********************=0A=0A------------------------------=0A=0ADate: Thu,= 27 Nov 2008 13:24:53 -0500=0AFrom: Peter L Borst =0ASubject: No varroa in Australia=0A=0ADee writes:=0A> Please correct me = if I am wrong to thinking this.=0A=0AWrong again!=0A=0A> The Australian Gov= ernment this [month] announced the sentinel hive program, which will alert = authorities when foreign bees potentially carrying varroa arrive, will be f= unded for the next two years. The tiny varroa mite has wiped out wild-bee p= opulations across the world, most recently in New Zealand. Experts fear if = it arrived in Australia, the cost of pollination for crops such as stonefru= it, almonds and pome fruit could double overnight. Free pollination from wi= ld bees could become a thing of the past. Honeybee Research and Development= Advisory committee chairman Des Cannon said baited hives would attract new= ly arrived bees, so an extermination could be carried out by the Australian= Quarantine Inspection Service. "It would be good if (the sentinel-hive pro= gram) were topped up with a baited program," Mr Cannon said. "Our effort (a= t keeping varroa out) has been good but if you look at what NZ spent on the= South Island alone, they spent $800,000 on surveillance."=0A=0A> Agriculture Minister Tony Burke said the Government = "recognises the importance of rigorous quarantine and biosecurity measures = to protect our valuable agriculture, fisheries and forestry industries. The= Australian honeybee industry is fortunate to be free so far of varroa," Mr= Burke said.=0A=0A=0A-- November 12, 2008=0A-- http://www.weeklytimesnow.co= m.au/=0A=0A*******************************************************=0A* Sear= ch the BEE-L archives at: *=0A* http://listserv.alban= y.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A**************************************= *****************=0A=0A------------------------------=0A=0ADate: Fri, 28= Nov 2008 07:36:56 +1000=0AFrom: Trevor Weatherhead =0ASubject: Re: using queen cells and timing=0A=0APeter wrote=0A=0A> I = think the oil based stuff sticks better and is perhaps safer for the=0A> qu= een. Modern water based paints and "white out", for example, have weird=0A>= stuff in them.=0A=0AI have used "white out" or "liquid paper" as we call i= t for years now with =0Ano observed problems. I think it does not stay on = as long as what the paint =0Awill do but it serves it purpose.=0A=0ATrevor = Weatherhead=0AAUSTRALIA =0A=0A*********************************************= **********=0A* Search the BEE-L archives at: *=0A* ht= tp://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A*******************= ************************************=0A=0A------------------------------=0A= =0ADate: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 13:19:46 -0800=0AFrom: Dee Lusby =0ASubject: Re: Nicolet queen system for raising virgins= =0A=0AKirk,=0AVirgin queen introduction done right should get closer to 95%= acceptance, b=3D=0Aut to do this you don't use rollers, you use 3dram bott= les and a simple che=3D=0Aap chicken incubator. This way you don't have the= smell of the workers to d=3D=0Arop your acceptance level.The incubator als= o allows for culling to get rid =3D=0Aof queens with deformities or not up = to standards wanted in body uniformity=3D=0A, and attention to race/strain = details.=0A=3DA0=0AD=0A=0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A =0A=0A**********************= *********************************=0A* Search the BEE-L archives at: = *=0A* http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3D3Dbee-= l *=0A*******************************************************=0A=0A--------= ----------------------=0A=0ADate: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:03:31 +0900=0AFrom= : Peter Detchon =0ASubject: Re: Nosema Ceranae= in US=0A=0ADee,=0A=0AGeoff (or Trevor) can speak for eastern Australia.=0A= =0AHere in Western Australia we definitely do NOT have mites. We take =0Abi= osecurity very seriously. Sugar rolls testing as well as examination of =0A= worker and drone larvae and pupae, is done as part of our annual screening = =0Aand testing procedures for a number of diseases and parasites. This =0Ap= rogramme encompasses both commercial and non-commercial beekeepers and is = =0Adone on both a scheduled and randomised sampling basis. The program isn'= t =0Acheap, and is funded from a levy paid by all beekeepers and performed = by =0Ainspectors and laboratories from our state department of Agriculture.= The =0Aresults of this testing as well as inspections of the source apiari= es is =0Awhat enables AQIS (The Australian Quarantine Inspection Service) t= o sign the =0Arequired international health certificates for exports of Que= ens and Package =0ABees.=0A=0ASo in a nutshell, when we say we ain't got mi= tes, you can believe it.=0A=0AIf you need further confirmation, ask Randy, = 'cos he sure looked closely for =0Athem when he was here!!=0A=0ARegards=0A= =0APeterD=0A=0A*******************************************************=0A* = Search the BEE-L archives at: *=0A* http://listserv.a= lbany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A**********************************= *********************=0A=0A------------------------------=0A=0ADate: Thu= , 27 Nov 2008 11:33:00 -0800=0AFrom: randy oliver =0ASubject: Happy Thanksgiving!=0A=0AHappy Thanksgiving to All!=0A=0AI'd e= specially like to thank Aaron for his time, hard work, and patience in=0Amo= derating this List!=0A=0AThanks for Bee-L, Aaron!=0A=0ARandy Oliver=0A=0A**= *****************************************************=0A* Search the BEE-L = archives at: *=0A* http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cg= i-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A***************************************************= ****=0A=0A------------------------------=0A=0ADate: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:= 30:23 +0900=0AFrom: Peter Detchon =0ASubject: = Re: No varroa in Australia=0A=0APeter,=0A=0AThe sentinel hive programme is = not new, having been in place for quite a few =0Ayears. What is new, is the= Federal Government's appreciation of its value. =0AThey have now agreed to= fund it, in order to guarantee its continuation. It =0Awas previously part= funded by state departments and partly by beekeepers, =0Aand relied very h= eavily on volunteers to provide bees and maintain them. As =0Aa consequence= there were some problems with maintenance of uniform =0Astandards. Hopeful= ly the new funding guarantee will enable further expansion =0Aof the scheme= to more points of entry and more remote regions in Northern =0AAustralia.= =0A=0AAlthough this is a "canary in the coalmine" approach it is seen as ha= ving =0Avalue, and is only one of several mechanisms that have been incorpo= rated in =0Aour biosecurity efforts. Biosecurity is one of the bigger words= in the =0AAustralian language, and is on the tip of most beekeepers' tongu= es here!=0A=0APeterD =0A=0A************************************************= *******=0A* Search the BEE-L archives at: *=0A* http:= //listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A**********************= *********************************=0A=0A------------------------------=0A=0A= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:36:23 +0900=0AFrom: Peter Detchon =0ASubject: Re: Nicolet queen system for raising virgins= =0A=0ADee,=0A=0AWow, 3 dram bottles. Neat idea. Presumably it works for you= ? Have you got =0Aany pictures you can send off-list?=0A=0APeterD=0A=0A****= ***************************************************=0A* Search the BEE-L ar= chives at: *=0A* http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-= bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *=0A*****************************************************= **=0A=0A------------------------------=0A=0AEnd of BEE-L Digest - 26 Nov 20= 08 to 27 Nov 2008 (#2008-328)=0A*******************************************= *****************=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:47:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T'N'T Apiaries Subject: Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In one of his posts regarding the use of cells, Allen stated that if = they had extras, he would occassionally double cell. When I worked in = California, that was considered a bad practice and I have held onto that = belief. The reason being that you have two virgins hatching at = virtually the same time and of equal strength. Like two well matched = prize fighters, winning does not come easily or without scars for the = victor. It was done once in my own outfit by staff and acceptance was down in = those nucs, but it was only a small group. I would like to hear peoples thoughts & experiences. Dave Tharle Ardmore, AB ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 13:35:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Cells In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have noted the same bad acceptance when using extra cells in nucs, would not like to do a large number of nucs that way. Now I throw the extras away. Harper's Honey Farm Charles Harper charlie@russianbreeder.org labeeman@russianbreeder.com (337) 298 6261 T'N'T Apiaries wrote: acceptance was down in those nucs, but it was only a small group. > > I would like to hear peoples thoughts & experiences. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 13:45:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ari said; "Royal jelly is proteins from pollen, just made into different form." I thought royal jelly was a secretion from the bee itself? Lionel ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 21:58:21 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes I agree royal jelly is bee secretion, but to make it bees need protein, and that comes from pollen. No pollen no royal jelly, or ok, little can be made from bees own proteins which also originate from pollen. I am quite sure that in pollen deficiency, affects royal jelly quality, and definitely amounts of royal jelly go down. Ari Seppälä ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 18:07:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: spreading diseases by glowes or by hive tool In-Reply-To: <002401c95167$68c48240$0500000a@ari71aa1cf24c5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ari Seppala said: > Havent' seen any studies about spreading diseases by hive tool or by > gloves. Has someone else seen ? I think your comments are quite correct. "At Ottawa, experimental inoculations (Gochnauer and L'Arrivee, 1969b) were tested in an apiary with uninoculated healthy colonies located adjacent to the inoculated ones to detect cross-contamination of colonies. Although subject to routine management of checking for queenlessness, stores or need for supering , uninoculated check colonies did not develop infection, which suggests that spore transfer by drifting bees, contaminated hive tools, or other equipment is not always sufficient to transfer infection from diseased to healthy colonies" regarding biological control of AFB from Hive and Honey Bee Goes on to make exactly your point about comb transfer being main vector. Regards Stan ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:35:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: raising virgins for stocking splits In-Reply-To: <749561.79143.qm@web58704.mail.re1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kirk, The queen cell cups sit right on top of the open bottle with queen cell han= ging down normally. But I use wooden cell cups too, so might want to check = this out more. =A0 But all I do when adding virgins is smoke in the bottom of hive until smoke= comes out top and then crack lid, or even down further between boxes at to= p of broodnest area and simply release queens by fast dropping in. Have nev= er seen fighting with virgins released this way and with her with no scent = from any worker bees prior to, she immediately picks up scent of hive place= d into for instant acceptance, and it is just beautiful to see with immedia= te courts all around her. Now if not wanting=A0 to smoke during daylight, I= have put in queens at night with no smoke and see no difference. She just = goes in and have never really seen a problem with acceptance. Also, I don't= mark my queens as normally one can tell by looking the difference between = old and new queens and banding differences. =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:51:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: 2nd Annual Organic Beekeepers Meeting, Oracle, Arizona 2009 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii As the Organic Beekeepers yahoo.com discussion group has now grown in numbers to over 2350+ members, we have put together our 2nd annual meeting for an American Beekeepers Association, for beekeepers into organic beekeeping, to come together to associate for clean sustainable beekeeping with NO treatments. Meeting to be held in Oracle, Arizona at the YMCA Triangle Y Ranch Camp and Retreat Center 27/28 February thru 1March 2009. Meeting will start Friday afternoon with Friday Night Hello's/Dinner, run all day Saturday, and thru Sunday afternoon with keynote presentations, general sessions, breakout sessions, hands on workshops, with 6 catered meals. Dinner for Friday night Hello's will also have speakers, along with Saturday night dinner with a requested party/dance. Vendors welcomed. Speakers so far confirmed: Michael Bush (bee breeding), Dean Stiglitz(experiences in regression), Ramona Herboldsheimer (microbes in the hive and their importance), Arthur Harvey (organic regulations, NOSB draft honey standards), Dee Lusby (Wholebee management,box/super workups) The fee for meeting includes: choice of accomodations in cabins (dormitory style 6 bunks 2 singles per cabin in 4-5 cabin groupings,....with bring your own sheets/bedding/blankets boy/girl scout style) for as low as $80 per person dependent upon particiation; six catered meals, and no fee for attending meetings since meeting room(s) are free relative to booking of accomodations. Also no fee for vendors other then normal lodging costs for meeting/catered meals. For more information see: http://www.tucsonymca.org/site/c.grLOK1PJLqF/b.691235/k.D62C/Retreat.htm or http://www.tucsonymca.org or visit OrganicBeekeepers at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ or contact Dee Lusby for information/registration at: 520-398-2474. For payment of registration per person of $80, due in advance of attending, send to Organic Beekeepers % Dee Lusby, HC 65, Box 7450, Amado, Arizona 85645, with stamped self address envelop for returning receipt and more information on YMCA to sender. Note: $80 fee is a straight fee whether sleeping/eating at camp or not. For general information concerning the meeting other contacts are Keith Malone (Alaska) 907-688-0588, Ramona/Dean at 978-407-3934 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 23:13:31 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: spreading diseases by glowes or by hive tool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ari and Stan There are other diseases than AFB (which I agree is actually not easy to transfer unless you move combs), but whether the risk is low or not, having clean gloves and a hive tool free of wax and propolis makes inspection a great deal easier and more pleasant. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 10:23:06 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Geoff Manning Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murray McGregor" > > Ari Seppälä I could ask if there is any other source of protein to bees > > than pollen. Anyone know how much there is proteins in nectar ? Honey > > has, but it comes from pollen in honey. > > Protein levels of up to 0.4% are common, however two types in particular > stand out with levels much higher than that. Calluna vulgaris and > Leptospermum scoparium (Ling heather and Manuka) normally have protein > levels above 1%, sometimes close to 2%. These types are thixotropic, > partly as a result. No experience with heather. Manuka, called Jelly Bush here by beekeepers, flowers in the spring/early summer. There are around eighty sp. in Australia, but almost all the active product comes from a very small area of coastal heath. Early in the spring this area has ample supplies of a variety of pollens, but the Leptospermum itself tends to be deficient. Later in the season Leptospermum is the only sp. flowering and there is thus a lack of pollen available to the bees. They start going downhill. This means that there are hard decisions to be made by the beekeeper. To encourage beekeepers to work the crop a higher base price is paid, with a bonus if the honey 'goes active'. But does one take the chance, or work the normally available grey ironbark flow for a bigger crop. Grey ironbark is also pollen deficient, but with some care sites can be selected that have good pollen from other sp. thus keeping good bees for later. Geoff Manning ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 10:37:03 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Geoff Manning Subject: Re: raising virgins for stocking splits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have used queen cells to requeen hives for years. I am a tad lazy and find it the easiest way, and as good as any other. It is my view that it is very cost effective, and I expect the bees to keep me. This is done when convenient in late summer/autumn. I attempt to do all hives yearly. We almost never have broodless hives so that there are too many that will fail in the second year. It is amazing how fast a hive will collapse headed by a failing queen when it hits a honey flow. I normally place the cell in the hive when I remove the queen. Sometimes I will delay for a couple of hours if that is convenient, but it mostly isn't. I use a cell protector made from a short piece of plastic tubing. A mate in Victoria (Australia) just places the cell into the hive without removing the old queen. Not sure if he uses a cell protector, and appears to be a successful beekeeper. I have heard that some New Zealanders do the same thing, and the claim was made to me that they had an eighty percent success rate. I am unclear as to whether this was a gut feeling or based on some controlled experiment. Is there a New Zealander in the house? One of the attractions of using cells is that there is no need of mating nucs., something else to have to prepare and maintain. The brood is in my opinion better used in the honey producing hive. And now with the advent of Small Hive Beetle, maintaining mating nucs has gone up an order of magnitude. Geoff Manning Ps. PeterD said, (about ammonium nitrate) -I could end up laughing all the way to the bank In Oz you could also end up laughing all the way to the slammer. GM ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 15:57:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: spreading diseases by glowes or by hive tool In-Reply-To: <4A3B79C6109D46659C4728C90F1A56F5@AM1610E1202A> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stan Goes on to make exactly your point about comb transfer being main vector. Reply: Interesting this being said. For I would see it as a positive management ma= nipulation, like exposing young children in too steril an environment to a = sand/dirt box to get sublethal dosages of pathogens to in a way keep them h= ealthier.=20 =A0 So relate this more to inter transfer of commercial extracting combs/wets b= etween hives, yards, or simply drawn out combs with empty frames or pollen = even. Does it give colonies so introduced good or bad vectors of pathogens?= For if never exposed, how can one get/stay healthy??? Also, one more obser= vation that needs noting: How does it change relative to cell size?........= ...have you looked? Noted?......:>) =A0 Dee A. Lusby =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:07:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US In-Reply-To: <006e01c95193$aa80a610$0500000a@ari71aa1cf24c5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ari ok, little can be made from bees own proteins which also originate from pollen. Reply: With no pollen and bees using own proteins you can quickly shorten life of = bees so doing 50% in about 2 weeks, which adds what to colony collapses....= ..for these same bees are then following nursing duties to do foraging late= r on?......somehow don't think so =A0 D- =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:44:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Raising the bar In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Actually, the recent discussions have been what BeeL is all about- informed and, for me, exceptionally interesting. Whoever is complaining needs to sit back and breath deeply before posting...in a couple of years. As for the rest who are getting through, as noted, this has been an exceptional period in the quality of the BeeL posts, and I have been around here for a long time. Well done, Aaron. Non illitigimus carborundum (Don't let the bastards wear you down.) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:16:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Weller Subject: Re: Raising the bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, I'm with you all the way. And to keep up with Bill T's classical erudition, here is the equivalent phrase in Cajun: Tracasse-toi pas. Walter Weller ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 10:27:34 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: Raising the bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I heartily agree with Bill T's comments, and would like to both thank and congratulate Aaron for what I appreciate is a major effort. At times of heightened activity, stress levels always rise, and I guess thats whats happening at present. If there is any advice I can offer to posters, its perhaps to lighten up a little....if you can't be all things to all people at least try and make 'em smile! Happy Thanksgiving to all those on the other side of the pond. I will certainly raise my glass this evening and say "Thanks" for Bee-L! PeterD ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 21:21:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Raising the bar In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, I suspect there is a shadow army out here that appreciates what you do but never posts. Don't make your judgments based on a few loudmouths. I for one appreciate you and Bee-l and those that post here. Have a fine holiday season. Dick Marron ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:42:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: using queen cells and timing In-Reply-To: <003601c95092$23d811e0$2ebb4d0c@greenbripi7wfd> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Juanse, Brother Adams wrote the following: > "I have found that a queen which emerges in an incubator is never as good > as > one who spends her first few hours in her normal environment... As a general rule I agree. I have found it is not wise to use the word never describing bee behavior. Few commercial beeks which use an incubator let the queens hatch before using Although virgin cages are sold. One very large beek who's name all would recognize is so convinced he trashes virgins if things go wrong and virgins hatch in the G.O.F. incubator. Placing a single cell has worked best for me. After destroying all cells the bees have started. I do however have a area beek acquaintance which does use virgins and also sells virgins. He uses mated queens for his early nucs he sells ( mainly as mature drones are not available then). I have never used his virgins so not sure of his success rate. He mainly sells to hobby beeks. Although he is within 60 miles of me and runs around 1200 hives he does not attend our bee meetings and has never called me. I should give the beek a call but have never had a reason so I have not. He advertizes in our newsletter. Having tried both a new jenter system without drawn cells and a jenter with the fully drawn comb we always get a better take with the( as per jenter directions) fully drawn queen area. However most queens will lay eggs in the area between the plugs. We always hand graft these which is easy for even old eyes. different strokes for different folks and many different methods to keeping bees. I think information on BEE-L is best when newbees can see the different methods used and decide which method they want to pursue. Not really one way to keep bees which is best under all circumstances. Try each as see which works best for your operation is what I recommend. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 21:45:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Raising the bar Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I appreciate Bee-L. I appreciate that it is moderated, and I appreceate that it is not me doing the moderation. Thanks Aaron. Steve Noble ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 21:19:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder In-Reply-To: <61524D3D82BB414CAAE6EF6CB63695C4@peter007> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter and All, Although Peter D' answered his own questions by saying maybe he should drag out the microscope I feel compelled to comment. Spore count is about all you have to work with *after* a confirmed N. ceranae find in you bees has been confirmed. It is my opinion that rare would be the hives in the U.S. which would not test positive for N. ceranae in the hives of migratory beeks. 100% of the CCD samples tested were positive for n. ceranae . Still did not cause much of a red flag for the researchers. They were SURE after the Science article that IAPV was killing our bees AND the import from Australia had caused the problem. Only a couple others besides myself said "now just wait a minute". > Bob commented on dead bees in the feeder of Nosema affected hives. > Is that a common experience? Not with nosema apis but I would say yes in the late stages of a hive crashing from Nosema ceranae. Spore counts are usually in the five million per bee range ( although not always) and according to Dr. Eric Mussen ( California research explained to beeks at the November 2007 Missouri State Beekeepers meeting ) is caused by desperate starving bees going into frame feeders. Tests done on those bees showed the bees were starving and unable to take syrup. All my inside frame feeders have a full length V of 8 mesh hardware cloth. Has always prevented drowning before I had serious nosema ceranae issues. > Am I missing the possibility/probability that syrup drowning is indicative > that these hives have a Nosema problem? It is best to test and confirm nosema ceranae as nosema apis does not seem to produce the bees in feeder issue. I might add for my friend Randy's information that the syrup in those feeders quickly turns black. Do you see a change in the color of syrup in California when you find dead bees in syrup? I note no off smell but I always dump and wash out the feeders. I washed some out today and wonder what I should use to kill nosema ceranae spores before reusing those feeders gain or is necessary. What do you think Randy? Randy also asked about if feeding pollen helped turn the nosema ceranae hives around. Randy has suggested such to me before. I honestly have not tried feeding a pollen/substitute as we are finding hives with an above normal amount of high quality pollen this year. I was happy not to find corn pollen in the hives I checked! Which is why I believe we are not seeing problems with the neonicotinoid corn pollen that we did in the two drought years when the bees packed in the seed treated corn pollen. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 21:34:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US In-Reply-To: <216965.77394.qm@web51610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy If we could figure out why your bees are more affected than mine, we might be able to start making sense of this critter! Be sure and thank Dr. Mussen for me as both of you have helped me learn what I have learned so far! By sharing with me what you have learned has helped me work through my nosema ceranae issues. Dee's Reply: Randy/Bob, not that I would say this, but I am...You must look at the whole-bee picture and not for short durations....but for the long-haul. I appreciate your advice girlfriend but very different methods than I have always used. trashing yards has worked for Randy and myself in the past and treating problems as we find problems. Other than a couple nosema ceranae test yards i have got the best bees I have had in years which did not happen by accident. Randy I have been given the basic formula for pollen sub you guys are using so plan to try in spring if I can find some inexpensive powdered eggs. Food grade powdered eggs are expensive! bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 23:32:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Natural Enemies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings My biggest objection to the so-called Organic Farming movement is that they self-righteously claim to have a monopoly on the ideas of pesticide free farming and biological controls. Actually, the major Universities have been at the forefront of some of the best ideas in these fields for years. An example is this new book from a Cornell entomologist. Furthermore, they are open to other non-pesticide solutions such as genetic modification, to enhance the defenses of plants and animals to the wide variety of pests and diseases. Natural Enemies An Introduction to Biological Control Ann E. Hajek Cornell University, New York Excerpt Synthetic chemical pesticides aren't always the answer > There are some situations in which chemical pesticides are not the most appropriate choice for controlling pests. One example would be introduced exotic organisms that become pests; it has been estimated that 30,000 exotic organisms have been introduced to the USA. In fact, invasive species are now considered a major problem worldwide due to the increasing human population frequently moving organisms around the globe and thereby altering ecosystems at an increasing rate. Many invaders become pestiferous largely due to the fact that they are no longer associated with the natural enemies with which they coevolved. Among pests in agriculture, approximately 20–40% have been introduced from elsewhere. Most are accidental introductions, although a small percentage of these were purposeful introductions such as crop plants and honeybees. Some were purposeful introductions with unexpected side effects. For example, the weed kudzu was introduced to the southeastern USA to control e! rosion and has since spread rampantly through most of the southeast, becoming a problematic weed. Introduced organisms are not always identified quickly, so they establish and become ubiquitous before it is possible to eradicate them. It is difficult to imagine how a synthetic chemical pesticide can easily solve such a problem as a fast-growing weed, without continual human intervention and its associated costs. Problems due to such pests are therefore often not readily addressed using synthetic chemical pesticides because more permanent control is what is needed. Classical biological control has frequently been successfully used against such pests (permanently introducing natural enemies from the land of origin of the pest). Unfortunately, by all predictions, accidental introductions of invasive species will only continue with the increased global movement of humans and materials. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 23:33:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Raising the bar Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I also extend complements to Aaron for a job well done! Being a moderator of a few lists myself, I know that the main body of rules are in fact crafted to protect others from abuse, and this protection is clearly exhibited on the Bee-L rules for ALL to follow. I’m with Bill when I also say; Don't let the bastards wanting to skirt the rules wear you down. Best Wishes, Joe ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 23:33:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: hardware cloth in feeders with bleach Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Bob Harrison wrote: >All my inside frame feeders have a full length V of 8 mesh hardware cloth. This is a chemistry question. Assuming the hardware cloth is galvanized and not stainless, what is the chance that bleach in syrup eats away at the hardware cloth and leaches zinc and other metals into the syrup? ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 13:42:11 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for your comments Bob. Randy has already chewed my ear (off list) for leaving the microscope"under the bed". So spore counting resumes forthwith! As regards sterilising feeders, it does no harm. In fact in my outfit, nothing moves from one hive to another without sterilising first. We use a sterilising solution made with common household disinfectant (benzylkonium chloride) for washing hive tools and smokers in the apiary, so its always to hand. The plastic feeders after washing out are filled with this and left soaking for a few minutes before rinsing and returning to their hive. With respect to feeding protein and its effect on Nosema, I am aware of the axiom stated by older generation of beekeepers here, that "you feed Nosema when you feed bees", so I will be very interested to follow that discussion. Don't think I can contribute though. Sounds as though N ceranae afflicted bees can't be fed because of intestinal damage? PeterD ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * *******************************************************