From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:12:17 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD40D4909D for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y7K017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:36 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0811E" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 208424 Lines: 4643 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 21:16:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder In-Reply-To: <93E6A2AC1D354340A22034E935D7815C@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, is caused by desperate starving bees going into frame feeders. Tests done o= n those bees showed the bees were starving and unable to take syrup. Reply What=A0 wrong with gut? Thinking back to Sept 07 - Oct 07 with prior lookin= g Aug 07....... With my bees in the one area in central colo mtns here where I live between= Arivaca and Amado, my bees were starving and yet showing other strange doi= ngs i.e. shellacing every part of the hives they were in squeaky clean and = throwing out pollen/honey on ground in front of hives, bottoms clean for mo= st part. Monsoon was on and plants were blooming all around the area, with = pigweeds, ragweeds, morning glory and fennel/burrow......but for all the bl= oom the bees were not foraging it...........but they were loosely clustered= and inside, yet working cleaning depending upon stage they are seen. Tests= sent back to me said Nosema.......... =A0 However, when I fed fresh frames of honey/pollen from yards in another coun= ty where I keep honeybees, they straightened out, and went out foraging aga= in and started brooding up and building up for fall.=A0But monsoons started= late and pehaps the bees were already in the mode for doing this strange b= ehaviour, yet strange thinking about it all.........Later it was found out = beekeeper next to me in yards was drenching/treating bees within flight dis= tance and artificially feeding. So thinking: Connection with acids?....How?= ......artificial feeds used? How? Yet, clean fresh honey/pollen frames fed = in straightened them out!....Why? =A0 Only thing that makes sense is current research going on in Nordic States o= n Lactic acid bacteria concerning honey, and now pollen, and now seeing cor= relation with royal jelly for a whole food picture..........yet so much to = learn/read.....put together with others helping/working together. =A0 D =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 01:42:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: spreading diseases by glowes or by hive tool In-Reply-To: <993628.64773.qm@web51606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee said: >Interesting this being said. For I would see it as a positive management >manipulation, like exposing young children in too steril an environment to >a sand/dirt box to get sublethal dosages of pathogens to in a way keep them >healthier. The sandbox analogy might be more appropriate to drifting bees in yards than comb transfer. >So relate this more to inter transfer of commercial extracting combs/wets >between hives, yards, or simply drawn out combs with empty frames or pollen >even. Does it give colonies so introduced good or bad vectors of pathogens? >For if never exposed, how can one get/stay healthy??? Regardless of good or bad, it is difficult for me to imagine trying to operate without comb transfer. Maybe if you were a top bar hive beekeeper.... But comb transfer is the main vector for transferring AFB. I once had a beekeeper from Surinam (formerly Dutch Guiana) stay with me. Their beekeeper's cooperative had a mobile extraction trailer that they took to member's yards where they extracted and then put the supers back on. That would somewhat decrease the transfer of comb pathogens, but not entirely, as I doubt if they disinfected between yards. Anyway, the world is not a sterile environment and that is why species have immune systems. But I still don't want to transfer combs with AFB. >Also, one more observation that needs noting: How does it change relative >to cell size?...........have you looked? Noted?......:>) I don't know, and it was not an issue back when they did the study I posted. Stan ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 06:46:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Raising the bar In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Aaron En vista que ahora podemos escribir libremente, lo har=E9 en espa=F1ol para mejor expresarme en mi lengua materna. Escribir en ingles es un gran esfuerzo. Antes de comenzar a escribir en Bee-l me tome casi dos a=F1os para leerme todos y cada uno de los correos hist=F3ricos a trav=E9s del acceso en honeybeeworld.com. Para mi aprendizaje como apicultor la lectura de esos mensajes fue de muchisima utilidad, por no decir de vital importancia. Luego comence timidamente a escribir, al comienzo con preguntas de principiante, hoy escribo con lo que considero son aportes desde esta humilde trinchera en el sur de Chile. Lo m=E1s importante es que encontr=E9 amigos. Pude viajar a Australia graci= as a que conoci a trav=E9s de la Bee-l a Peter Detchon. He tenido el privilegio = de contar con la valiosa ayuda de Randy Oliver, a quien hace a=F1os atr=E1s le= hice ver la importancia de la nosemosis, a qui=E9n gratamente he servido de traductor con los investigadores espa=F1oles y que con creces a demostrado = lo que vale, como persona, como cientifico y como renacentista. He descubierto a Peter Borst, qui=E9n trabajo en Chile hace a=F1os y me ha ayudado mucho c= on sus v=EDnculos bibliotecarios. He gozado los aportes de Allen Dick (con su sugestivo apellido) y su formidable honeybeeworld. Porque no mencionar a Trevor Weatherhead y sus consejos en la cria de reinas y los intercambios con Irwin Harlton respecto del precio de la miel. Son muchos a los que no menciono. En fin, a trav=E9s de la bee-l me siento cerca del conocimiento d= e punta y de la experiencia de muchos a=F1os de otros colegas en otras latitudes. Gracias Aaron, gracias Bee-L, gracias a todos y cada uno de los que escriben y aportan. Como decimos en Chile: Aaron no te mueras nunca!! Bee-L no te mueras nunca!= ! Entiendo Aaron, que estes agotado con muchos de nosotros cuando la conversaci=F3n se centra en las declaraciones insidiosas de Jim o en el ago= te de las celdas peque=F1as de Dee o en el sabelotodo Bob. M=E1s te entiendo c= uando muchos nos enfrascamos contra ellos. Lo que no quiero ni imaginar es la cantidad de mails que no vemos, las conversaciones que moderas y tratas de corregir para que cumplan las pautas de la lista. Por experiencia personal he recibido un par de mail de vuelta, desde tu lado, porque no cumplia la bee-l-tiquete, comentarios que realment= e aprecie por su respeto y precisi=F3n, tambi=E9n porque me ayudaron a perfeccionar mi ingles. Por favor, no dejes de moderar, no dejes a la bee-l, no nos dejes a nosotros, los fieles seguidores de esta fuente de informaci=F3n. A los que inchan las pelotas, por favor pong=E1nse en el lugar de Aaron y e= n el de todos los que leemos la lista y no estamos ni ah=ED con sus precarios aportes. Si alguna vez vienes a Chile Aaron, no dudes en contactarme. Mi casa es tu casa. Con aprecio y apoyo desde Chile, te deseo que descanses de nosotros este fi= n de semana y vuelvas recargado este lunes. --=20 Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 01:50:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Leadership In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bayer and Beekeepers Meet to Discuss Pesticides and Honey Bees and > This first meeting was a result of an invitation from researcher Dr. Jerry > Bromenshenk (The > University of Montana) to Dr. David Fischer (Chief Scientist, > Ecotoxicology, Bayer CropScience) to > participate in a stakeholders meeting in conjunction with the California > State Beekeepers > Convention. I hope someone at this meeting will ask Dr. Fischer why they will not analyze the samples that they took from my hives. I have been extremely patient and think that at least they should do the samples from the hives that crashed, and the yards in canola that performed worse than the control yard. Stan ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 02:11:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: raising virgins for stocking splits In-Reply-To: <007301c951b2$41507430$52e1140a@podargus1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A mate in Victoria (Australia) just places the cell into the hive without > removing the old queen. Not sure if he uses a cell protector, and appears > to be a successful beekeeper. I have heard that some New Zealanders do > the > same thing, and the claim was made to me that they had an eighty percent > success rate. I am unclear as to whether this was a gut feeling or based > on > some controlled experiment. There is considerable discussion in the bee-l archives about this, which might be found by searching the word "overcelling". Most years I have raised about a thousand cells for overcelling (protected with aluminium foil in my case). My "gut feeling" is that less than fifty per cent are successful. I put them in during our last heavy nectar and pollen flow on goldenrod before winter, and so do not know until spring. It is very obvious then when they have been successful. But maybe some were successful but the hive condition had gone down below "winterable", since brood production is ending not long after the goldenrod flow. This year I purchased 1400 queen cells (which were transported by air cargo in organ transport containers, about 7 mm thick styrofoam!) and put them in nucs. In the end the success rate of the nucs was only about fifty per cent. We had rotten mating weather all through the period I was doing nucs. So, considering how simple overcelling is, I am not really dissuaded by only having half work out. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 22:12:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Natural Enemies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Excerpt: > Classical biological control has frequently been > successfully used against such pests (permanently > introducing natural enemies from the land of > origin of the pest). Successful out of how many attempts? I took an upper division entomology course in biological control and the professor shocked the class when he said: "historically 90% of all biological control attempts have failed." So we were taught to view biological control as a possible very good control tool, but one that was likely to fail in a majority of cases. Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 10:08:10 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Raising the bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bee-L just got its juju back. We're back to Informed posts and to posts that firmly, directly, accurately and politely challenge the challenge-worthy without long-winded confusion, point-scoring and diabtribes. Aaron: many many thanks for that. Bee-L is import to us. It needs a strong custodian with that strong view of what the list should be and what the list needs. Be firm, trust in your own judgement, we're with you! You said somewhere that 95% of posts are approved. For me, that is too high. People should see that only the highest quality posts get through. We should *expect* that many of our posts are rejected, failing to make the grade. In some ways, it is like publishing in a scientific journal - you don't expect the editor to think every contribution worthwhile. You have to be saying something interesting, justifiable, appropriate, well-presented, relevant, polite and reasonably novel. If you fail, you try harder next time. It saddens me that you are getting grief behind the scenes. Whoever they are, they've got it wrong. The referee is always right even if his interpretation of the rules at one particular infringement is debateable. In the sports I watch, arguing with the referee gets you a yellow card. Persist with it and you get a red and are removed from the field of play, sometimes for weeks. You might try that if you like. And as for talk of splinter-lists - great! Bee-L is and always will be the most respected in cyberland. If a few individuals (and I've no idea who you are talking about) decide to go off in the huff, great! Bee-L will probably be better without them. best wishes Gavin ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 22:18:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Cells In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > I would like to hear peoples thoughts & experiences [re double celling > nucs] Like Allen, I have always used up extras by double-celling--but never thought to check back carefully to see the specific results. Now you guys have got me wondering. I love this sort of exchange on Bee-L that make me rethink my habits! Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 08:12:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Mike_Bassett?= Subject: Re: raising virgins for stocking splits Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 10:37:03 +1100, Geoff Manning wrote: > >A mate in Victoria (Australia) just places the cell into the hive without >removing the old queen. Always looking for better/faster ways to requeen I asked a person that sells nucs how he requeened all of his hives. He said he doesn't find the old queen just puts on a queen excluder between honey supers and brood chambers and puts the cell in the honey super. I tried this for four years and the bees destroyed the cell before it hatched. I had to move a bunch of really heavy three deep hives this spring that had to be hand carried out of where they were. I went in and made three to four nucs out of each one(didn't find any of the queens even though they were marked) moved them, put a queen cell in each one including the nucs, and all the queen cells hatched in nucs and hives. never found a marked queen, all had new eggs at the same time. So I'm going to try it again this year, I suspect that the removal of the nucs made the bees think that the queen was failing, but will see if repeatable. If it does I will have to see how much brood I have to remove to trigger it because I missed the early flow's. mike bassett syracuse n.y. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 09:06:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ik Subject: Raising the bar In-Reply-To: <972721.15254.qm@web86209.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Aaron, I lurk more than I post now. More so because the topics on the list seem to distance to be relevent while I'm out by my hives. BUT, I still subscribe to read and be INFORMED on what is happening AND being debated through out the world. To isolate ones self from other ideas is not good. I recently was looking at a very old picture of my grandfather as a young man tending his bees. This would be from the early 30's or late 20's. I never knew him but after sitting for a while (by the woodstove with beer in hand) I noticed that in his hands were the same basic tools that I still use today. The smoker and hive tool are very much unchanged. But our environment sure has, our world is a slightly better place considering he had just finished a world war, the flu epidemic and was moving towards a second world war. He could never have invisioned a medium like the web and Bee-L where people could share ideas from around the world about their hobby/living instantly. What would this form have been like if we could transpose it to 1851? If L.L. Langstroth posted his findings about bee spaces and discussed his new prototype hive? I would not hesitate to bet the Mr. Langstroth would have been on Bee-L. How fortunate we are to have Bee-L. I also feel fortunate to be able to read other peoples ideas knowing that someday I might read about an idea or finding as important as Mr. Langstroth's, because there are many people on this list who I admire and appreciate the time (and courage) they take to post their ideas. The rules are posted for all to read and follow so why is it so hard to understand? Keep up the good work everyone and you to Aaron. Because I think this list is as important as Mr. Langstoths ideas. Kent Stienburg Ontario Canada ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 09:22:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Natural Enemies In-Reply-To: <4930DD4C.65EB@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 1:12 AM, Paul Cherubini wrote: > "historically 90% of all biological control attempts have failed." Since you give no details, we don't know whether you are referring to research, which generally fails, or actual commercial applications. Regardless, it is still worth studying and moving in the direction away from chemicals. I support the use of chemicals *if all else fails*. I don't have the book in hand but here is an additional excerpt: > Ann Hajek discusses the reasons why biological control is used, and describes different use strategies and associated safety issues, as well as how best to integrate biological control with other types of pest management. She goes on to describe the basic biology of the different types of natural enemies, and gives examples of successful biological control programs. Throughout this book the ecological relationships that make control possible are emphasized and the major strategies for the use of different types of natural enemies detailed, with discussions of the specific conditions under which each strategy is successful in controlling pests. ANN E. HAJEK is an associate professor in the Department of Entomology at Cornell University, where she teaches a lower-division course on natural enemies, and a graduate course on invertebrate pathology. She has worked on numerous different types of natural enemies and their use to control pest populations. Her research program centers currently on fungal diseases of insect pests, emphasizing the gypsy moth and the invasive Asian longhorned beetle. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 06:41:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: SUSAN PETERSON Subject: Re: Raising the bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Thank You Aaron for the list. I'm one of the lurkers, but like to stay informed. I'm usually a week or so behind on the posts, will try harder next year Susan ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 09:44:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Natural Enemies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >There are many examples of successful classical biological control programs. One of the earliest successes was with the cottony cushion scale, a pest that was devastating the California citrus industry in the late 1800s. A predatory insect, the vedalia beetle, and a parasitoid fly were introduced from Australia. Within a few years the cottony cushion scale was completely controlled by these introduced natural enemies. Damage from the alfalfa weevil, a serious introduced pest of forage, was substantially reduced by the introduction of several natural enemies. About 20 years after their introduction, the alfalfa acreage treated for alfalfa weevil in the northeastern United States was reduced by 75 percent. A small wasp, Trichogramma ostriniae, introduced from China to help control the European corn borer, is a recent example of a long history of classical biological control efforts for this major pest. Many classical biological control programs for insect pests and weeds are ! under way across the United States and Canada. SEE: http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/ent/biocontrol/ > Defra-funded research by Warwick HRI and Rothamsted Research has shown that entomopathogenic fungi have the potential to control varroa. In an initial feasibility study we reviewed the scientific literature on the natural enemies of mites and ticks, including predators, parasitoids and entomopathogens, and ranked them as potential biological control agents of varroa. Entomopathogenic fungi were identified as the best candidates for testing against varroa. > Forty isolates of fungi from six genera (Beauveria, Hirsutella, Paecilomyces, Metarhizium, Tolypocladium, Lecanicillium) were assessed against varroa mites in this bioassay, at 25OC and high humidity (> 95% RH). All the isolates killed the mites and most killed them in less than 100h. Selected isolates also caused high mortality at 30OC and 40% RH, in lab bioassays designed to reflect the physical conditions of a honey bee colony. > A fungal biological control agent of varroa would be particularly valuable given the onset of pesticide resistance. Application techniques that allow the mites to be treated quickly and effectively should be possible with entomopathogenic fungi, in which case biological control would be an option for commercial and enthusiast beekeepers alike. In addition, because the physical conditions inside honey bee colonies are similar everywhere, it is very likely that an efficient biocontrol agent of varroa could be used successfully throughout the world. SEE: http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/whri/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 10:56:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: raising virgins for stocking splits In-Reply-To: <010a01c9522a$1420ae80$52e1140a@podargus1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 'Overcelling' is a term I have not heard before. I had a look in > the archives and only found two references, this one and another from you > with the subject- 'Imidacloprid update'. Maybe I am holding my mouth > incorrectly. Sorry, I guess it is a term that I heard and use, but not others. I looked and overcell also gives a blank. However, the practice of doing it, *has* been discussed alot. I put in "cell protector" and found quite a few hits (because you can't do it without protection (and a honeyflow helps). Stan, thinking what do other people call it? ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 10:25:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: raising virgins for stocking splits Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Stan, thinking what do other people call it? Politely, I call it a waste of time and money. Informally, I call it pissing into the wind. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 08:24:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Burrup Subject: Raising the bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aaron I am new here but am totally satisfied with the way things are being run. = There are always those who are never content with anything. Keep up the good work!! ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 07:35:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: spreading diseases by glowes or by hive tool In-Reply-To: <276DF759EBB84FA485490CC18B32494B@AM1610E1202A> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stan, The sandbox analogy might be more appropriate to drifting bees in yards tha= n comb transfer. Reply: No it is not. For have never seen a problem with comb transfer unless you s= tupid enough to transfer combs with obvious disease in them, and same for h= oney/pollen filled frames. And, I repeat that.....I have never seen a probl= em. and in fact now knowing what I know about the microbal inferfacing that= can be in the thousands, it certainly fits into place on a clean natural s= ystem of beekeeping, rather then something Nature is trying to put down fwi= w. So again,.....Does it give colonies so introduced good or bad vectors of pa= thogens? For if never exposed, how can one get/stay healthy??? Now here with micro organ= isms one cannot see, and taken from healthy looking colonies, then things w= ould pretty much be in balance with the good and bad in harmony balanced by= the bees fwiw with combs exchanged....and this is now coming more to light= with what is being seen.=A0=A0For there is benefit to be gained in fresh e= xchanging of combs with food or frest wets or=A0other.. =A0 =A0Also, AFB is one of the easiest to be seen and more then 6-8 per frame s= een,=A0I would get rid of combs and melt down. But less then that amount, N= O problem, for the bees take care of it........themselves. and this past ye= ar i had perhaps 1 hive or so to deal with, like big deal!!!=20 continuing: I don't know, and it was not an issue back when they did the study I posted. =A0 Reply: Then no issue, no problem until you have a problem and changes have to be m= ade. =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 10:26:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder In-Reply-To: <393776.28979.qm@web51608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee, Did your test results say nosema, nosema apis or nosema ceranae or a combination of nosema apis & nosema ceranae? it is very hard for me to answer without knowing what the diagnosis was. nosema spores of nosema apis and nosema ceranae look very similar. As per Randy Oliver's articles you can figure spores per million with the scope of both *nosema* but you really need a conformation of nosema ceranae in your yards before the battle begins. You might need to send Jerry B. new samples if Jerry did not confirm exactly if you have nosema ceranae. My guess is you do especially if yards are within flying distance of a beek doing drenching. In Spain research has shown it takes around two years for nosema ceranae from first introduced into an apiary to reach levels in which a hive will look great and crash a couple weeks later. Randy correct me if this statement has changed as you keep contact with the Spain researchers. Dee, Not to be the bearer of bad news but if your 200 hives died partly because of nosema ceranae and you reused equipment I predict the problem will surface again at another time. Will be interesting to see if happens. Important: If you see losses again with bees in those reused boxes I would consider not reusing the boxes (organic but expensive as spores are even on woodenware) or using acetic acid before reuse. It is my opinion that the longer you try to reuse those deadouts the harder it is to keep healthy bees in those boxes. Nosema ceranae spreads through yards if left unchecked. I know you are not interested for the most part what a member of the crowd doing about the opposite of what you organic beeks do but at least listen to what we have learned. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 10:55:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Weller Subject: Re: Raising the bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FWIW, this lurker agrees with Gavin. Thanks, Aaron. Walter Weller ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 08:05:31 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Raising the bar In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA341055C3592@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Aaron, > http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm > http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/misconceptions.htm If you or your moderators of Your BEE-L would have and can follow the content and context of these two sites above then there would not have been a problem nor shall there be a problem in the future. The problem was a moderator let a post slip by that did not follow the rules and the post was called on. With these rules you have set the bar high, good luck in keeping them. Humans at times will fail to meet even their own rules, this is what happened to create the situation that lead to this thread "Raising the bar" being created. Keep doing a good job moderating the list and try not to take things personal. God Bless, Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska klm@gci.net ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:05:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: soundbite treatments and research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dee Lusby wrote: What we are doing that can be read by anyone. It is based on honeybee field management on a "wholebee concept" and not doing field management by soundbites in bits and pieces. 1. In a colony that has been restored to health, the natural defense systems of bees are fully operational again 2. No secondary infections by foulbroods, chalk broods, etc., can take place because infected brood will be destroyed by the bee's own natural communal defense system. 3. The size of the worker bee returns to normal and again fits the natural flora of the region. * * * Maybe you would like to explain these in detail. Here you claim that bees have a "natural communal defense system" and that it prevents "secondary infections". Does it prevent nosema? How can the size of the honey bee be related in any way to the size of the "natural flora of the region" if a) the honey bee is not native to the region; and b) flowers come in all sizes, being utilized by creatures from the tiniest insects to birds and bats, etc. ?? * * * Maybe you could explain this: > In areas of complex mongrelization where several races/strains of bees are determined, retrogressive breeding should be a multi-step process. It should start with the separation of yellow races/strains from dark races/strains. Next, beekeepers should separate colour by caste size, to be lastly followed by separation of remaining bees by phisical characteristics other than size. * * * -- In life, some things seem true enough, some things can be called questionable, and others are simply ridiculous. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:22:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Natural Enemies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Biological control works for what it is designed to do, which is control a pest. But it does not eliminate the pest, which is where many farmers would agree that it does not work. The problem is blemished fruit and vegetables and low yield. If the public is not willing to pay more for food and also accept blemishes, then, again, you are back in the world of it does not work.Just walk behind someone in the grocery store and watch them pick through produce. So, in the sustainable and organic world, it works. In the grocery store, it does not. All depends on perspective. In the case of Varroa, it would work. Bill Truesdell -Who practices organic gardening and eats around the bugs. Usually. Otherwise, counts it as protein. Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 11:36:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Honey from mellifera vs cerana In-Reply-To: <90685A3380CB4C2C83D42CEBD16CD44E@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- Good point. But what I really would like to know is, how would EU inspectors be able to determine the difference between honey from apis mellifera and that from apis cerana? Eugene > (Isn't honey from scutella the same as that from mellifera?) Yes, scutella (or scutellata) is Apis mellifera scutellata! ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:29:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: raising virgins for stocking splits In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike & All, > I tried this for four years and the bees destroyed the cell before it hatched. The advice you received was in my opinion was misinformation which was common 30-50 years ago. So Bad in the fifties and sixties we used to ask the old timers and then do the opposite of their advice. The exception was of course your mentor. Old timers and those we were in compition with would always feed newbees information which they knew would cause failure. I see several problems with placing the cell above a queen excluder. I was told in Texas years ago that the secret to stopping a hive from swarming was to turn the hive upside down. I caught a glint in the old timers eyes so discarded the idea. > I went in and made three to four nucs out of each one moved them, put a queen cell in each one including the nucs, and all the queen cells hatched in nucs and hives. Mike the above is exactly the way we do it. A few pointers would be to mix brood from the various hives and if using nuc boxes line all the nucs in a single file swerving line. despite what many of the "experts" say moving nucs to a new location before introducing a cell or queen in my opinion helps. The success (my opinion) comes from "trashing the hive" which completely makes the bees forget the old hive and once they realize they are queenless readily accept a new queen. I ALWAYS make nucs using frames from different colonies. Feeding while introducing the cell (or new queen) also helps in my opinion. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:02:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Trashing hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "trashing the hive" Bob, Would you and/or Randy explain more what you mean by "trashing the hive"? I assume it is a complete breakdown and reassembly of hives into nucs for the purpose of making increase, but what goes where and when and why? Have either of you written articles about this procedure in one of the bee mags? Is it more strictly a commercial operation? Advantages? Timing? Etc? Is there any reason for a hobbyist to do this? Steve Noble ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 15:36:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Leadership MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan Send me specifics - who took the samples, when, where. I'd be glad to ask. Jerry **************Finally, one site has it all: your friends, your email, your favorite sites. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000006) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:44:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Trashing hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Have either of you written articles about this procedure in one of the bee mags? I have not and I do not think one has ever been done. > Is it more strictly a commercial operation? Trashing is a common practice with many advantages. What I forgot to say is we kill all queens we find but time is money so if you do not find the queen then you simply move on. Also there are variations and also some BS about the method like the Adee (3 nucs and an extra frame from each hive story in Bee Culture) . Sounds good but in reality you work fast with what you find and some you make plenty of nucs and others maybe only one or part of another. Other hives are depopulated. The nucs being made are the important part as the hives used only provide the material needed. When you complete doing the yard then the job is complete. Help learns fast how to "trash a hive". In many ways easier than having to stand over their shoulder pulling frames for increase trying not to move the old queen to the increase. Which is a practice we hardly ever do as there is a better way. Also many variations of trashing the hive. I would trace the first "trashing the Hive" in beekeeping history back to Bell Honey in Florida in the early sixties . Stories of his method of bringing a whole semi load of bees into a huge building and converting all hives into nucs coming out the other side. Moved to Lake County, Florida and each given a queen cell gave the industry the idea in my opinion. >Advantages? 1.swarming control 2, requeening 3. all hives the same strength so will need supers at the same time 4.increase of hive numbers. 5. cull old comb and bad equipment. Is there any reason for a hobbyist to do this? If the above reasons are needed. Certainly not rocket science. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 13:23:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Natural Enemies In-Reply-To: <8c0381120811290922o6ca66574sf8ee7725b0293afb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill T, The problem is blemished fruit and vegetables and low yield. If the public is not willing to pay more for food and also accept blemishes, then, again, you are back in the world of it does not work. =A0 Reply: How did the public get into this "behind the looking glass mentality, witho= ut training somplace in schools or other as to what to look for, for health= y, vs today what is actually healthy without all the cosemetic treatments a= pplied strickly for looks that is in the same bag, for pulling our agric ap= art now as all treatments need to be backed off of for planet and human hea= lth reasons... for long haul. =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 13:29:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Trashing hives In-Reply-To: <6C49A1DA11AF4EE88148521F7014F1FB@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Harrison, Is there any reason for a hobbyist to do this? If the above reasons are needed. Certainly not rocket science. Reply: Sometimes used to be called 'splitting to the "four winds" to clean up prob= lems' and/or at same time make increase, but also can be used for taking up= equipment to stay ahead of wax moth problems also, and other. =A0 But a beautiful description Bob,... and yes either you or Randy need to wri= te an article more current for today's reading on all various stuff you do = this way for newer beekeepers. =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 17:01:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Trashing hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:02:37 -0500, Steve Noble wrote: > Have either of you written articles about this procedure in one of > the bee mags? Is it more strictly a commercial operation? Advantages? > Timing? Etc? Is there any reason for a hobbyist to do this? We always called it "breaking up"; trashing sounds sort of abusive, when in fact it is highly beneficial. I wrote about this in the ABJ in 2007: What I have in mind is an annual system that anyone can use and it does not involve killing off the bees. We lose enough colonies as it is, so we must have in place a system to have new ones coming along. It's best to have hives in several stages in order to not lean too much on one particular plan. By this I mean: making splits in the spring and also making splits in late summer. Colonies started in the early spring build up fast, don't swarm, and should make honey that summer or fall. In order to get spring honey, or do early pollination, one depend on the colonies the previous summer. The exact dates are going to depend on your location and the nature of your honey flows. Many operators go south, make splits during the winter and haul them north. What makes this an annual plan is not the killing off the colonies at the end of the year, but rather this: the hives are broken up while still in their prime. My favorite method of making splits is to haul the entire apiary to a new spot several miles away and immediately (or the next day) break the hives up into as many new ones as you can get. A few frames of brood and bees will do in early spring. Each hive is divided up into an obvious group (or mark the group with a crayon), all nucs in that group coming from the same original hive. In three days, you can return and put queens into any hive that has no fresh eggs. This greatly simplifies finding the old queens: they will be in the nucs having fresh eggs and should be easy to find in the small units. These older queens should be replaced as well. Another key point to this system is: you may not get as much honey out of each colony as you used to. But remember, it is not the average that matters, it's the total. It really doesn't matter if you get a ton from ten hives or thirty. The old method of having really strong hives producing two or three hundred pound averages brings with it a whole host of problems. Second and third year colonies are more apt to swarm, have to be watched closely for storage space, and develop high levels of mites. A first year colony isn't going to swarm and the whole yard can be supered about the same, since they are all about the same strength, requiring less individual attention. The complete article is archived at: Keeping Bees Without Chemicals, Part One groups.google.com/group/upstate-new-york-beekeeping ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:13:47 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder In-Reply-To: <5ABA3AB5E1DD4D3F970F82E60881ED6E@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Harrison, Dee,Not to be the bearer of bad news but if your 200 hives died partly beca= use of nosema ceranae and you reused equipment I predict the problem will surface again at another time. Will be interesting to see if happens. =A0 Reply: Yes it certainly will be interesting to see, and so far the yards are doing= fine, and equipment taken up is full of bees and honey/pollen stores and s= till 18 yards to finish for working year so not roadblocked for working up = in spring due to too much honey inside. But then in saying this, I guess we= 'll see if going back to SC with whole outfit works for the long-haul with = zero treatments and the bees using broader foraging range for propolis is k= ey, like Ed and I rationalized long ago now it seems for better health, foo= d, and breeding for staying on top of problems. Bob continuing: Important:If you see losses again with bees in those reused boxes I would c= onsider not reusing the boxes (organic but expensive as spores are even on woodenware) or using acetic acid before reuse.=A0 It is my opinion that the longer you = try to reuse those deadouts the harder it is to keep healthy bees in those boxes. =A0 Reply: But the equipment is already taken up and bees going strong and plenty of h= oneystores now.......so don't worry=A0 Bobbie for I will keep reminding you= that the equipment is still in usage now since Fall 2007 and we'll keep tr= acking while you IMPOV do the acid stuff and other for reuse as I don't hav= e that time to waste........So you watch me and I'll watch you and we'll se= e were things end up. For to me if the bees cannot stay on top of problems = by selves mostly, then they are not in tune with Nature and thus all the st= uff thrown into hives. but if my bees do stay healthy, while I recirculate = combs and such all around, yard to yard even in extracting......then "what = does that mean for what you are doing?"=20 =A0 So you take note and if you see continued losses and I don't......then if t= he shoe fits like someone says from time to time......:>) then what does it= mean? but you might have to make changes instead of me. continuing: Nosema ceranae spreads through yards if left unchecked. =A0 Reply: ONly to me if left unchecked by the bees themselves not being able to balan= ce with a wholebee system that does include balance of all co-existant micr= obes etc...... continuing: I know you are not interested for the most part what a member of the crowd doing about the opposite of what you organic beeks do but at least listen t= o what we have learned. =A0 Reply: Same here Bob for it is a two way street and to me an artificial system enl= arged by man for getting bigger and better bees is somehow indeed opposite = of nature and what we organic beeks do, but like you say, if we have to lis= ten to what you have learned, then you have sooner or later to listen to us= ! =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 10:41:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >Food grade powdered eggs are expensive! You noticed! We used spray-dried whole egg, but it smelled like rotten eggs. Human food grade dried egg yolk is appears to be much better. I don't want to feed my bees anything that I wouldn't eat myself (we often get hungry in the bee yard, and have to munch on patties to survive). I've also been trying soy protein *isolate* to avoid soy flour toxicity issues. Also more expensive, but a little really boosts the protein level. Use at low levels, bees didn't like too much. There are fine differences between the various commercial and home made formulas. All appear to help the bees to some extent. Some have good data from controlled trials, but we could use a lot more trials. The simplest test now is whether a beekeeper is bringing strong, healthy colonies to almonds or not--whatever he did, worked. Feeding of supplement has really caught on with commercial beekeepers. The consensus that I'm hearing is that about a pound a week will maintain healthy, disease resistant, strong colonies. And Dee, I don't necessarily consider this as unnatural stoking of the colonies, but rather a maintenance of healthy nutrition, just as one would use for any other form of livestock. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 15:13:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10811291041r4908d603o789ff05981fe6fe9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy, And Dee, I don't necessarily consider this as unnatural stoking of the colo= nies, but rather a maintenance of healthy nutrition, just as one would use = for any other form of livestock. =A0 Reply: Well, Randy, since it takes a cell of pollen, to a cell of water, to a cell= of honey, to make a bee, and old SC measurements were,1 lb for 4500 bees, = but not knowing how equates to LC bees today as it would vary by size, then= ,=A0if no pollen to maintain colonies with overwintering, then sometimes yo= u have to do as you seem to be doing but yearly?;.......but in saying this.= ....question: Why not enough pollen you your hives to maintain strong ones = for the almonds?......or you simply following old Jim Powers ways for getti= ng more money and making bees at same time? since to me he was the one that= really got the almond stuff going in a way, showing beekeepers how to go t= here and make bees at same time and/or just prior to.........or am I wrong = for remembering too far back this way? =A0 But can understand need to feed at times, but then used to be taught to sav= e real stuff too, might throw in in case bees need it in bad years.....but = nowadays no one saves, they just spend and buy! Steal and feed, but underst= and what you write.....just cannot see the feeding, for the me good livesto= ck feeds itself or at least should be allowed. But just my take Randy! =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 19:10:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Imitating Without Understanding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A young woman is preparing her first thanksgiving dinner. As she gets everything ready for thanksgiving day, she very sternly reminds herself to let the turkey finish thawing in the sink overnight. She puts it in and places the dishrack over the top of the bird. Her husband walks into the kitchen and sees this. "Why are you doing that?" he asks. "My mom always did that to help the turkey thaw" she told him. The next day Mom calls to see how everything is going. "Fine, Ma. I have everything ready to go in the oven. I even remembered to put the rack over the turkey last night." This seemed to confuse her mother a bit. "What are you talking about?" she asked. "Oh, I remember you always put the dish rack over the turkey when it was thawing in the sink," she said. There was a pause on the end of the line. "Yes, but honey, we had cats!" * * * A more frightened than injured young Seabee electrician was brought into the hospital suffering from electrical burns. Shortly afterward his instructor, a chief electrician, arrived. "Why on earth didn't you turn off the main power switch before you tried to splice the wires?" asked the chief. "I wanted to save time, chief, and I've seen you stand on one leg, grab the wires and splice without turning off the power." "My God, kid," exclaimed the chief. "Didn't you know I have a wooden leg?" * * * Dee Lusby writes: > An artificial system enlarged by man for getting bigger and better bees is somehow indeed opposite of nature. I am sorry, but this is flat out nonsense. Nature certainly doesn't prefer smaller and worse. In fact, over the millions of years, most organisms have gotten better at what they do. Some by being bigger, some by being tougher, and some by being smarter. The ones that didn't get better are no longer with us. When you look at the honey bee Genus, you have bees that are much smaller and much bigger than Apis mellifera. Apis mellifera being the most productive of all of these, one could reasonably conclude that it is "just the right size". But of course, it is not size that is responsible for its success but the fact that it has evolved into a highly optimized system. Were this not the case, people could not make a living by exploiting the labor of the honey bee. Nobody makes a living off of carpenter bees, say, or good news bees (hover flies). So, excuse me, but how do you justify your exploiting the labor of honey bees? Or are you just like the rest of us, compelled to depend on others to survive? In the final analysis, everything we do and everything we have comes from Nature. But for you to constantly claim the moral high road, more Natural Than Thou, the one and only person who knows anything about anything, is not only arrogant and ignorant, but utterly tiresome and definitely not conducive to learning new things. * * * Natural law or the law of nature (Latin: lex naturalis) is a theory that posits the existence of a law whose content is set by nature and that therefore has validity everywhere. The phrase "naturalistic fallacy" is used to refer to the claim that what is natural is inherently good or right, and that what is unnatural is bad or wrong. * * * There is a well-known story in cooking that shows the folly of appeal to tradition. In this story, there is a woman who, when cooking ham, always begins by cutting off one end of the ham and throwing it away. When this mysterious behavior is questioned by a friend or family member, she admits that she does it only because her mother did it that way. Becoming curious herself, she asks her mother why she cuts the end off the ham; she, in turn, says that it is how her mother did it. When the grandmother is questioned, she reveals that she cut off the end of the ham only because it wouldn't fit in her pan otherwise. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 08:54:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Raising the bar In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10811282218l35a96cb9l12893d46f33c166f@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 29-Nov-08, at 1:18 AM, randy oliver wrote: > > I love this sort of exchange on Bee-L that make me rethink my habits! Hi Aaron I copied this from another thread. It points out the value of Bee-L to me also. Your hard work is appreciated. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:47:54 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder In-Reply-To: <341880.74705.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Maybe Dee=B4s cutellata=B4bees are resistant to n.ceranae. If they are alre= ady control varroa and love SC, housel and old combs, probably they schew nosem= a spores by the mouth full, who knows? It is pitty that in Chile we do not have scutellata, and that our authorities do not want it here, other wise I will import Dee=B4s Bees. Wit= h global warming rampant probably we will have a huge desert here ready for Dee=B4s bees very soon. In the mean time we let nature works, and the desert comes, I will stick to my bad manners, trying each day to be a betterbeekeeper, and maybe one time I become a bee manager. Fast and clean. --=20 Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 22:21:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: SABA Seminar 2009 at UAlbany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association will present ... S.A.B.A.'s 2009 Beekeeping Seminar Speakers and Topics: Jennifer Berry of the University of Georgia : Sub-lethal Levels of Miticides linger in the Hive, IPM vs. Small Hive Beetles Dr. Ernesto Guzman of the University of Guelph: Africanized Honey Bees and Their Impact on Honey Statistics, Mortality Causes of Over-wintered Colonies Dr. Medhat Nasr of Crop Diversification Centre North, Alberta: Varroa Control: Putting the Pieces Together for Successful Mite Control, Bee Health and Colony Kill: Beekeepers' Blues Presentations will run consecutively.  Raffle drawings held at 4:45. Date and time: Saturday February 21 9:00 A.M. - 5:00 P.M. Location: Lecture Center One at UAlbany (University at Albany), 1400 Washington Ave., Albany NY. (Same place as in 2003 - 2008). Cost: $30 if pre-registered by 2/11.  This includes refreshment breaks.  (Lunch is available nearby.) Walk-ins are welcome at a cost of $40 each. Friday night Dinner: There will be a get-together dinner at a nearby restaurant the night before the seminar. Speakers usually attend. (Please mark your registration and send $30 deposit.) Hotels: 3 hotels are extremely close by: Marriott Courtyard (518-435-1600), 1455 Washington Ave.; Marriott Fairfield (518-435-1800), 1383 Washington Ave.; and Best Western Sovereign (518-963-7666), 1228 Western Ave. Questions: Anne Frey SABA@capital.net Use seminar in the subject line, or call 518-895-8744. www.adirondackbees.org ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 19:42:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Imitating Without Understanding In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter, You are so funny, that you cannot see alignment size wise with real world a= nd man's/your artificial folly, but then that is what gives you job securit= y temporarily as a bee inspector for those great LC bees that choak seem so= CCD healthy!!!!. =A0 D =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:02:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Imitating Without Understanding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Excuse me. Did I *actually* see this in BEE-L? > Peter, > You are so funny, that you cannot see alignment size wise with real world > and man's/your artificial folly, but then that is what gives you job > security temporarily as a bee inspector for those great LC bees that choak > seem so CCD healthy!!!!. I NEED a new drug. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:15:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Imitating Without Understanding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ooops. Aaron said he turned off NOREVIEW. Now you know what I REALLY think. As if you didn't already. Excessive quotes to follow: --- > Excuse me. Did I *actually* see this in BEE-L? > >> Peter, >> You are so funny, that you cannot see alignment size wise with real world >> and man's/your artificial folly, but then that is what gives you job >> security temporarily as a bee inspector for those great LC bees that >> choak seem so CCD healthy!!!!. > > I NEED a new drug. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 01:36:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Imitating Without Understanding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Because people’s identities (who they think they are) get tied up with their belief systems, you can’t attack their beliefs without it seeming like a personal attack to them. Ego’s get bruised when you tell someone their way of thinking or their ideas, which may also be their beliefs, are ridiculous or nonsense. You are not going to change anyone’s religion by attacking the validity of it. You’re just going to make them mad. What’s the point in that? The only thing you can do to resolve an apparent discrepancy between your perception of reality and what someone steadfastly believes in, is try to build off of what you can find in their point of view that has some validity in your eyes. In the case of a group discussion like this you build off of it for the sake of those who might be receptive to the truth as you see it. That way you spread your knowledge without pissing anyone off. It’s not hard to do. You just have to recognize what is futile and what is not. Also,remember the story of the Samurai warrior who went to avenge the death of his master at the hands of another warrior. When the noble warrior challenged his adversary, the man spit in his face which enraged the Samurai. Not wishing to incur bad karma, the Samurai would not fight in his unclear emotional state. He turned and walked away. So, grasshoppers, do not post in an unclear emotional state. Karma rides the internet at very high speed. Samurai Steve Still digesting ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 22:41:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: Raising the bar In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA341055C3592@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good evening, Aaron - Add mine to the many voices expressing support for the work you do and for = the benefits of moderation on the BEE-L list.=A0 I'm sorry that you're taki= ng flak.=A0 You do not deserve it. I have to admit, though, that I'm a bit surprised to hear that you're getti= ng abuse.=A0 As a reader, it's not apparent who is upset with you or why.= =A0 Not knowing what kinds of posts are getting rejected, I don't know that= the rest of us can really offer useful opinions about what should be chang= ed.=A0 Can you give us a synopsis of the nature of the complaints that you = received? Mike Rossander P.S. Having said all that, if I had one wish for a change to BEE-L, it would onl= y be to ask you to check again with the system administrators to see if the= y still care about the rule against "excessive" quotes.=A0 With the dramati= c reductions in the cost of electronic memory and the improved archiving te= chniques, most companies I work with have abandoned their "size control" ru= les.=A0 The costs to usability are no longer justified by the systems savin= gs.=A0 I have to think that the folks at Albany are seeing the same trends. As I think I've said before, the problem for me is that some participants a= t BEE-L feel that they must comply with the rule so strictly that they slash out _all_ the context, making their reply very difficult for the= rest of us to understand and to place back into the proper order.=A0 Since some people re= spond to posts made days ago, saving the messages or even using the web fee= d is not a guaranteed solution.=A0=20 That's really a nit, though.=A0 I wish the rule about quotes were a little = looser.=A0 I can't think of anything else to ask for and definitely do not = want you to loosen the guidelines about civility, relevance, staying fact-b= ased, etc.=A0 Thanks for giving us the opportunity to offer our opinions ab= out the functioning of the list itself. By the way, are you the only moderator?=A0 The "What is BEE-L" page implies= that there are multiple moderators but you seem to be the only one we ever= hear from.=A0 Are the guidelines out of date?=A0 Would it take some of the= stress off you if the list had several moderators? Thanks again. =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:27:48 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: Raising the bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron wrote > BEE-L cannot be all things to all people, nothing can. That is certainly the case. As the owner, you have the right to set the rules. We are then bound by them. > readers will find the guidelines for posting at > http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm which have been > suggested reading for as long as I can remember. I have looked at these again and I offer the following suggestions. Firstly there is not a mention of long posts. Every so often we get a post that is quite large and is often that way because the poster is repititious within the post or repeating what has been posted by them before. Is it possible to set some sort of limit e.g. x number of words? I would not want you to have to count the words to make sure they conform so is there something like we get in Microsoft Word where it does the word count for you? If not, then I would be happy for you, as Moderator, to judge the length by any method you come up with. Secondly on trolling, particularly the baiting part, you will recall the disagreement between you and I and another a long time back re this and the consequences for me. I have seen many times since similar instances of what I would call trolling as it was previously applied. I see this as a grey area where what could be seen as baiting is in fact a desire for knowledge or clarification as it was in my case. I realise it could be hard to determine if it is in fact a troll or a genuine desire for knowledge but I bring this forward for your consideration. What ever final ruling you make is fine by me. > There have been discussions over the years, lists have splintered off in > protest, > and today there are more lists than I have the time to monitor, and I > understand soon there will be another one. So be it. Great attitude, so be it. Although there are other lists set up, I see that many on these lists still maintain their input to Bee-L. So they must think Bee-L still has something to offer to them despite the splinter. Often numbers of members are quoted but I do not see this as a valid barometer for the success or value of Bee-L. After all, someone could register several email addresses or enter and exist a site to get the number of hits up. It is not the quantity but the quality. > I apologize for the tone of this post and offer in advance my apologies > to BEE-L fans, be they active contributors or silent contributors. No apology necessary. It was straight down the line, not insulting and told like it is. No waffle. I appreciate the service you provide and, like Juanse, Bee-L has offered me the opportunity to meet others in the beekeeping community around the world who I would otherwise have not had the opportunity to engage with. So stick with it and you have my support for any decisions you make re rejecting posts. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 05:52:18 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: raising virgins for stocking splits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 29/11/2008 13:14:01 GMT Standard Time, wildbranch2007@YAHOO.COM writes: places the cell into the hive without >removing the old queen. I have done this successfully on a number of occasions. I always use a queen cell protector to reduce the chances of workers tearing it down. They are cheaply available in plastic or wire or you can make your own. I believe that some years ago, before I joined, DARG (the Devon Apicultural Research Group) did some work on this, wrapping cells in foil. Maybe a member lurking on the List will provide more information. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 06:07:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is Nosema ceranae spread by dysentery (in which case the use of acetic acid or similar on equipment before re-use is probably essential) or by trophyllaxis which would make the use of acetic acid irrelevant (except as part of normal good practice against N apis etc). Or by both? Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 06:16:44 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: soundbite treatments and research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 29/11/2008 17:06:25 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: How can the size of the honey bee be related in any way to the size of the "natural flora of the region" if a) the honey bee is not native to the region; and b) flowers come in all sizes, being utilized by creatures from the tiniest insects to birds and bats, etc. ?? A few generations ago it was noticed that bees in SE Europe, the Caucasus, had longer tongues than most other honeybees and so were able to make use of different flora with longer nectar tubes, especially some of the clover family . Russians and Germans both had breeding programmes to 'improve' other strains by incorporating this characteristic and using it elsewhere. I am told (Sue Cobey I think, but I could be wrong) that the breeding was successful but the bees were useless. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 06:25:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: raising virgins for stocking splits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 29/11/2008 18:31:19 GMT Standard Time, busybeeacres@HUGHES.NET writes: moving nucs to a new location before introducing a cell or queen in my opinion helps. The success (my opinion) comes from "trashing the hive" which completely makes the bees forget the old hive I have successfully used a method developed in New Zealand by Vince Cook. The contents of a hive are evenly distributed between a handful of nucs, each with a queen cell, that are placed in a circle surrounding the position of the original hive, which has been removed. The bees redistribute themselves fairly evenly and any great imbalance can be rectified by the beekeeper swapping combs at the next visit. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:29:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US In-Reply-To: <691398.96909.qm@web51601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > just cannot see the feeding, for the me good livestock feeds itself or at > least should be allowed. Granted, but in my area, good livestock starve from July 1 on... I've moved my bees for 30 years to summer pasture to avoid this, and have studiously avoided feeding, since it is labor intensive and expensive. But a few things have changed: 1. I must now leave some bees in the dry areas to pollinate the organic farms that give me locations at other times of the year. They go downhill without feeding. 2. As I get older, the thrill of dozens of all-day hauls to and from summer pastures over the top of the summit is waning. I've been experimenting with feeding to avoid the move (still more cost effective by far to move). 3. My bees no longer pack in as much nectar and pollen as they used to in the good old days. 4. Varroa and nosema call for better colony nutrition for the bees to survive. 5. A very strong colony in almonds now rents for nearly $200. A few dollars in pollen supplement may return several dollars in return. I always prefer natural feeding, but I find that colonies respond astoundingly well to sugar syrup and a good pollen supplement. Both are foods that I would eat myself, so I have no qualms that I'm feeding my bees something unhealthy. As far as such feeding causing problems downstream, I simply do not find that that to be true. The colonies are invariably healthier and stronger due to the benefit of "proper" feeding. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 07:33:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Imitating Without Understanding In-Reply-To: <25B87A98FCCE4765895B12A201344395@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 11:15 PM, allen wrote: > Ooops. Aaron said he turned off NOREVIEW. > > Now you know what I REALLY think. > > As if you didn't already. > > Excessive quotes to follow: I confess that I also occasionally send stuff in that I know Aaron will kill, but it is usually humorous so he generally gets the point and sends aa message to that effect. But I am still trying to figure out what Allen wanted us to look at in the videos. All I saw were very ill behaved bees, identical to the AHB videos I have seen. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 07:43:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Imitating Without Understanding In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > But for you to constantly claim the moral high road, more > Natural Than Thou, the one and only person who knows anything about > anything, is not only arrogant and ignorant, but utterly tiresome and > definitely not conducive to learning new things. Which is the crux of most disagreements, the lack of a willingness to discuss rather than just to dismiss. I practice organic gardening and keep my bees with only Oxalic acid treatments in the fall, something approved by some in the EU as "organic". I also argue for commercial beekeepers using miticides and Bayer who is the straw man for CCD. Usually those posts are dismissed because of Peter's comment, which hits the mark. If you do not fit the template, you are wrong. There is no "informed discussion". Pity. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 08:39:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: Leadership Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit from http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/blogs/bees/colony-collapse-disorder- 55112202 " Certainly the most common foe honey bees have are the agricultural chemicals they encounter on a daily basis. This past season too many beekeepers witnessed the differences between colonies that visited treated crops, especially corn seed-treated with the new neonicitinoid chemicals that protect the plant for the entire growing season ... and colonies that stayed “out in the woods” as they say, far from the farmer’s killing fields. Colonies exposed to these treated plants are, for many right now, experiencing a whole list of problems including and the prospect of successfully overwintering these colonies seems unlikely." Jerry do you or does anyone have any data to support this claim that corn seed treatments are causing big problems? Living in the midst of a sea of corn in MN I know of no one including myself that falls into this category. I have heard this claim many times and passed it off as just that a claim. Is this for real? ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 08:48:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: The only genetic line consistently resistant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Juanse writes > It is pity that in Chile we do not have scutellata, and that our authorities do not want it here, other wise I will import Dee's Bees. Might work, Juanse. They sure do seem to have the right stuff! > The only genetic line of A. mellifera which has consistently been found to be resistant to V. destructor is the Africanized honeybee (AHB). Mite resistance was first observed in Brazil and the low level of mite fertility was considered to be the reason. Three independent studies carried out in different tropical regions of Mexico showed that AHB colonies were able to survive without the application of any mite control measures, while the mite population cycled between 1000–8000 mites. In sharp contrast, European honeybee (EHB) colonies kept in the same region, died within a year because of the rapidly increasing mite population. "Mortality of mite offspring: a major component of Varroa destructor resistance in a population of Africanized bees" by Luis MONDRAGÓN, Stephen MARTIN, Rémy VANDAME Apidologie 37 (2006) 67–74 > Although the mite has caused severe losses of honeybee colonies and has eliminated wild bee populations in temperate climates, it does not appear to be a serious pest in regions of the world where the Africanized honey bees (AHB) exist. Low infestation levels of V. destructor in AHB have been reported and different mechanisms of resistance of the bees to the mite have been described. On its original host, the Asian bee A. cerana Fabr., the mite is not a serious pest, because it does not reproduce successfully on worker brood. Consequently the total number of V. destructor within an A. cerana colony is always low (< 800). In AHB colonies, the mite can reproduce in worker brood cells, which are more abundant than drone brood cells, and V. destructor populations stabilize between 1000–3000 mites without killing the colonies. In European honeybees (EHB), the mite populations are able to increase 4-fold annually in tropical regions, causing colony death within one year because ! as few as 2000– 3600 mites are enough to kill an EHB colony according to a model approached by Martin (2001) for honeybees from Europe. "A multifactorial study of the resistance of honeybees Apis mellifera to the mite Varroa destructor over one year in Mexico" by Luis Mondragón, Marla Spivak and Rémy Vandame, Apidologie 36 (2005) 345-358 * Here Remy Vandame makes the case that European bees have been mollycoddled while Africans have always had to fight for survival: > The main challenge for survival of European subspecies has been the climate. For the African subspecies it has been the confrontation with predators and parasites; to date, 160 mite species are known to be associated with tropical honey bees. The defense against predators has been an increase in aggressiveness, and the main defense against brood parasitism could well be the removal behavior. Thus we can hypothesize that the removal behavior reported in the present paper for AHB mainly constitutes a trait acquired by African bees during their evolution, prior to their encounter with V. destructor. > Another speculation could be that European and US commercial honey bee populations (those that have been protected by man from dying from V. destructor) arose from human selection over centuries. Factors selected include low defensiveness, low level of nestmate discrimination and, maybe as a side effect, lower resistance against parasitism. Thus, we hypothesize here that the bees usually classified as European are mainly derived from anthropogenical selection. They are actually gentle, but also form compatible associations with parasites like V. destructor. On the contrary, feral bees, when they still exist, though less gentle, would still have intact resistance abilities. "Parasitism in the social bee Apis mellifera: quantifying costs and benefits of behavioral resistance to Varroa destructor mites" -- Remy VANDAME, et al, Apidologie 33 (2002) 433–445 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 06:16:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Raising the bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those who wondered what Juanse had to say, here is a rough translation, accomplished by using Babelfish and a little tuning by hand. He seemed satisfied with the version I asked him to look at, but he was tired after a long day. I am sure he will correct any errors in this translation if they misrepresent his meaning. Peter, also may notice some shades of meaning and add or correct, I am sure. Myself, I have been very pleased -- delighted, actually -- with the positive and encouraging response of the list to Aaron's declaration, and have been holding back on commenting on the list in order not to distort opinion, but my understanding is that Aaron has returned the list to moderation now, at least that was what he told me last thing last night, so I will add my 2c later. For the long detailed version, some may care to visit my current diary (bring lots of coffee). For now Juanse and others -- Gavin, Trevor, and more have pretty well said it all. Here's to raising the bar! --- Aaron In view that now we can write freely I will write in Spanish better to express myself -- in my maternal language. To write in English is a great effort. Before beginning to write on Bee-l it took almost two years for me to read each and every one of the historical archives through access via honeybeeworld.com. [link to the the U at A server - ed.] For my learning as beekeeper, the reading of those messages was of great usefulness, even vitally important. Soon I began timidly to write, at the start with beginning questions; today I write what I consider to be contributions from this humble valley in the south of Chile. Most important it is than I found friends. I could travel to Australia thanks to the fact that I know Peter Detchon through Bee-l. I have had the privilege to report on the valuable aid of Randy Oliver: that years ago back I made him see the importance of the nosemosis, and for whom pleasingly I have served as translator with the Spanish investigators and who fully to demonstrated what it costs, like person, scientist and Renaissance Man. I am beholden to Peter Borst, who worked in Chile for years and has been helping greatly with his librarian connections. I have enjoyed the contributions of Allen Dick (with his suggestive last name) and his formidable honeybeeworld. I should also mention Trevor Weatherhead and his advice in the rearing of queens and the interchanges with Irwin Harlton with respect to the price of the honey. They are many I do not mention. In short, through bee-l I feel near the knowledge of end and the experience of many years of other colleagues in other latitudes. Aaron thanks, Bee-L thanks, thanks to those who write and contribute. Like decimos in Chile: Aaron you never die! Bee-L you never die! I understand Aaron, that you are tired, as are many of us when conversation concentrates in the insidious declarations of Jim or in the tiring small cell talk from Dee or in sabelotodo (know-it-all) Bob. I understand [your weariness] when many of us were involved against them. What I do not want to imagine is the amount of mails that we do not see, and the conversations that you moderate and try to correct so that they fulfill you rule of the list. By personal experience I have received several emails returned from your side, because they did not comply with bee-l-tiquete -- commentaries that I really appreciate by their respect and precision, and also because helped a me to perfect my English. Please, you do not stop moderating, do not leave bee-l, and do not leave a us, the faithful following of this source of intelligence. To that have the balls, please put [yourself] in the place of Aaron and the one of which we read the list and we are not there with its precarious contributions. If sometime you come to Chile, Aaron, you do not doubt in contacting to me. My house is your house. With esteem and support from Chile, I wish you that you rest away from us this weekend and you return recharged on Monday -- Juanse Mud J. APIZUR S.A. Race 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 07:52:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Burrup Subject: Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > " Certainly the most common foe honey bees have are the agricultural > chemicals they encounter on a > daily basis. This past season too many beekeepers witnessed the > differences between colonies that > visited treated crops, especially corn seed-treated with the new > neonicitinoid chemicals that protect > the plant for the entire growing season ... and colonies that stayed "out > in the woods" as they say, > far from the farmer's killing fields. I keep hearing this about imidacloprid seed treatments on corn causing problems with the bee. Imidacloprid is in several agriculture chems as well as being out for the general public to use in their yards. It is labeled for use on most if not all of the vegtables and fruit that we eat. Bees could be coming in contact with this in a lot more places than corn. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 06:53:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Imitating Without Understanding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > But I am still trying to figure out what Allen wanted us to look at in the > videos. All I saw were very ill behaved bees, identical to the AHB videos > I have seen. You and quite few others. The bees were not too bad up the point I mentioned, and then things heated up. I try not to be too controversial here on the list, and sometimes even succeed, but I write my more unrestrained observations in my diary. There is a letter reproduced under Monday, November 24th, 2008 that reflects the same insights as several others I have received. My thoughts about BEE-L also run from there down to present. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ --- I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody. Bill Cosby (1937 - ) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:48:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Raising the bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Allen Thanks for taking the trouble render Juanse's thoughtful letter into English. Those automatic translations are sometimes worse than none at all, since they miss quaint little expressions such as > To those whose balls are swollen, please put yourself in Aaron's place and that of us, who read the list and are not with you and your dubious contributions. Also, "Peter Borst, who worked in Chile for years" is wrong; it was years ago, but only for six months. But long enough to fall in love with one of the most beautiful countries on the planet. If you like California, you'll love Chile! I would render his final sentence as > With appreciation and support from Chile, I wish you a break from us this weekend and hope you return recharged this Monday. * * * Y a ti, Juanse, que tenga una buena primavera mientras estamos congelandonos los culos. Tu amigo, Pedro ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 11:01:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Subject: Raising the bar In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Kent Stienburg wrote: > He > ...never have invisioned a medium like the web and Bee-L where people > could share ideas from around the world about their hobby/living > instantly. > What would this form have been like if we could transpose it to > 1851? ... I would not hesitate to bet the Mr. Langstroth would have > been on Bee-L. I've been looking at the recent ABJ articles put up (digitally) at the Mann library site ( http://bees.library.cornell.edu/ ) and interestingly beekeepers then as now harbor a myriad of opinions & various leaders in the beekeeping world had their moments of contention. They hashed it out by snail mail & through the journal -- or at national meetings. The WWW allows us to indulge daily rather than monthly! I imagine that the debates would have been weighed down by the long time between point/counter points. I would encourage all to take a look at the digital library on early American beekeeping. I find that their observations are very astute & some details perhaps more precise that what we come up with--perhaps due to a slower life that allowed such a in depth dissertation on each point. I would also thank Aaron for us lurkers who just don't usually find the time to join the conversations! We all gain insite into our craft through this media. Mike Griggs ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:01:45 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: raising virgins for stocking splits In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris > I have successfully used a method developed in New Zealand by Vince Cook. > The contents of a hive are evenly distributed between a handful of nucs, Vince was an apprentice to Harry Cloake and learned the method from him, but I do not know whether Harry was the originator either. To further add to the confusion I have heard it described as the 'bombshell method' and the 'starburst method' but neither method seems to involve the whole apiary being treated in this fashion as is apparently normal (from recent posts) in US. I have used the method a great deal, but only dismembered enough hives to cope with the number of grafts that I had available. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 08:06:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Raising the bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Having said all that, if I had one wish for a change to BEE-L, [it would > be] about the rule against "excessive" quotes. the problem for me > is that some participants at BEE-L feel that they must comply with the > rule so strictly that they slash out _all_ the context, making their reply > very difficult for the rest of us to understand and to place back into the > proper order. Since some people respond to posts made days ago, saving the > messages or even using the web feed is not a guaranteed solution. You raise a very good point, and one that has been debated recently. I happen to agree with you, to a certain extent. Actually, the rule against excessive quotes is not to save space so much as to simply to make the archives more easily readable. People do read the archives, and when searching, quotes that are not relevant to the article in which they occur cause multiple false hits and can cause people to give up searching and just ask the same question again on the list, when many good answers are already in the archives. People who search before they ask, ask better questions and are more "informed". Personally, I try to pare down the quotes as much as possible, as above, but leave the nut of the points I am addressing, rather than writing them all out again. I also make sure that I use the proper quote format, *with carats*. Carats make the quotes obvious. For some reason, possibly because they cannot master their email software, or are using HTML as default, some writers do not respect this convention, and IMO this makes their posts difficult to read since they usually do not mark the end of quoted blocks. It would be really nice if all would respect the conventions. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ --- "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." -- Edmund Burke ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 14:00:03 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: raising virgins for stocking splits In-Reply-To: <4932B8E9.9030803@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cause I got convinced that one of tha causes for the increase in nosema incidence was stress in the colonies, I change my ways of doing splits. I have five colonies stands (caballetes), when I move from one location to an other (I do pollination and honey) I leave the center one in the stand and take the other four to the new location. The one that was left is trashed in up to four nucs, depending on its strenght. I do not care where the queen is. But if we spot her we left her in its original box. Most of the forager return to that hive. After a couple of days we return with our virgin queen and introduce them with amonnum nitrate as described on a previous post (see note at the bottom). We destroy all cell cups we see. A month latter if the mated old queen was left in the center original hive and the forager returned to that hive, ii is quite strong, ussually with a full super of honey. So then, a month or so after cell introduction, we take honey out, and again share the population between the nucs and hves in the standa (equalizing). We then treat for varroa with amitraz. We try to treat just after the queen has mated and before the first cell are capped so as to find all the varoas in their foretic stage. Work load not always allows us to do so. Note: We place the virgin queen caged on top of the top bar, We sleep the whole lot, bees in the nuc, plus queen in the cage. We free the sleeping queen straigh away. They waik up in 5 to 10 miutes. We do not check those nucs in 15 days at least. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:03:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Going back to the message at http://tinyurl.com/5o7lrj , There are still many unanswered questions, and a clarification. Please excuse the repetition, but no response has been received for a number of interesting and novel claims. --- >> Old eqjuip from the 7 CCD yards was reused, with nothing done to it. > > I have heard conflicting reports. Was it really CCD? If so, then your > comments, above, seem to conflict with one of the defining criteria for > identifying bona fide CCD. I have not seen a reply to this. There was, I believe, however, a question asked about how long CCD equipment is contaminated. >> Saw nosema NO PROBLEM as identified by Dr Bromenshenk, > > Dr. Fischer reported a different version of the story here recently and > that a treatment was used if I understand him correctly. Can you address > that? I re-read all my material and could not find any reference to treatment, and you have confirmed that you did not treat, so I withdraw that and apologise, again, as I did some time back by email. This was answered. >> looking at samples from all around the USA from bee colonies kept in the >> USA, that for some reason showed origin of bees also from Australia! >> so question in my mind: What they doing in USA? > > Maybe some samples were sent over from Oz, and not taken from US bees? Still waiting for an answer. >> ... other states in USA then showing POSITIVE samples for Nosema that >> also included the other maladies from same samples and showing positive >> for AFB, EFB, para, Sac, Sept, Acarine, insective poisoning were... > > Positive for acarine in 1959? Citations please. Still waiting >> ... except I did not use treatments as don't beleive in then, nor >> artifricial feeds but instead used live and let die and breed from the >> strong and let the weak go.and also for the record each yard has made a >> barrel of honey and some more!! immediate year following. > You mention no stats on how many were originally standing and when, how > many died and when, How many splits were made and when, and when the > recovery was complete and count was made, what the numbers were. I know > commercial beekeepers keep detailed notes, so I'm trusting you can give us > numbers. For the record. No reply yet. > A barrel of honey from 60 hives is not much, but maybe the yard is only > ten hives? Seems to me that your yards are much larger than that, though. How big was the yard, before and after? > Thanks for taking the time to write this out clearly. I look forward to > details that will help me understand this in real terms. Still waiting. > I was thinking of the earlier period. However, let me add that my > understanding is that recovering numbers in the south is not hard if no > honey is to be produced. In the north, successfully splitting up to 16 > from one has been well-documented and in a short season area. So please > explain why recovering numbers as reported is so remarkable? I must be > missing something. Still wondering. >> Now, let me say, I can dig deeper into my files should it be wanted with >> more for discussion. I'm hoping you are dong that, since quite a few people wonder at the generality of statements made, and the lack of numbers. Thank you in advance allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ --- "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." Friedrich Nietzsche ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:25:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I seem to recall having heard mention of killing nosema spores by using heat, but that the heat required is close to that which melts or sags combs. Considering that some on the list keep bees in areas where the temperatures get well above 100 degrees F, I wonder if at certain times of year hives are sterilized of viable nosema spores? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ --- "Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty." Tacitus ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:52:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Raising the bar Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit “Please be careful that we don't raze the bar while in the process of raising the bar“. (joe)-watching from the sidelines here. Best Wishes, Joe - Derry Pa. Bear tally this season: 4 on Derry Ridge. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:00:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder In-Reply-To: <51DD89540474416AAFA3E2514DED8D78@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- On Sun, 11/30/08, allen wrote: .... in areas where the temperatures getwell above 100 degrees F, I wonder if at certain times of year hives aresterilized of viable nosema spores? Would the house bees allow the temperatures in the hive to get that high? Certainly it would see the brood areas would be kept at a lower temperature. No? Mike in LA ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:17:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Would the house bees allow the temperatures in the hive to get that high? > Certainly it would see the brood areas would be kept at a lower > temperature. No? I was actually thinking of equipment in storage or stacked in yards. Near the brood, the bees control the temps within a degree or less. allen --- "A man may imagine things that are false, but he can only understand things that are true, for if the things be false, the apprehension of them is not understanding." Isaac Newton ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:47:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: neonicotinoids (was Leadership ) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian asks: >Jerry do you or does anyone have any data to support this claim that corn >seed treatments are causing big problems? If you search the archives you will see the neonicotinoids have been discussed over and over. In fact the first beekeeper to raise a concern on BEE-L was Allen Dick and Allen has a huge amount of research on imidacloprid on his website. I admit I was slow to point the finger at imidacloprid but after the years rolled on and speaking with many beeks from France, Italy & Germany I saw beeks in areas of their use were having problems while others not in those areas were not. My testimonial: " I have seen the light" I really did not see much hive loss I could pin on imidacloprid myself until the drought years of 2005 & 2006 in Missouri. We saw terrible unexplained losses in areas of imidacloprid treated corn seed during and after corn tassel. Hives in open range did fine. Testing showed imidacloprid in pollen but at a level Bayer said would not harm bees. The first year we bought what Bayer was selling. The second year we DID NOT. I listed my survival plans ( archives) for drought years which is moving bees out of row crop areas when corn tassels. However I found that when other pollen is available bees avoid corn pollen. I can honestly say I have not seen losses from the neonicotinoids the last two years. The above is from my personal experience. It is what it is. If I was out to bring Bayer down I would lie and say I was still seeing neonicotinoid problems. I have spoke with plenty of Florida beeks which report imidacloprid losses in orange. Dave H. reports losses in apples and pumpkins. In these cases levels of imidacloprid ( PPM) have been found in pollen. The first year of losses in pumpkins Dave H. bought what Bayer was selling. After the second year of losses Dave H. will not do pumpkins with neonicotinoids used. Nor will others I have been told. Dave H. spoke of the above at the commercial beekeepers sig at the ABF convention last January. Beekeepers doing apples (myself) will not do apples if assail is to be used during bloom. The discussion between beeks and Bayer is over what damage those PPM amounts cause. The Bayer position has changed if you follow their releases. first was no imidacloprid in pollen. Then only PPB. Now PPM but only misuse would cause the PPM levels we have found. Pending research at Penn State on sub lethal effects of imidacloprid should shed some light. Early leaks from Penn State *seem* to support sub lethal effects with the levels found in our hives but we need to wait for the full report. commercial beeks are the most concerned about the neonicotinoids in the U.S. because they are the most effected. I personally have seen the losses. I personally have had the losses. Other than Stan ,Juanse and myself I do not know of any others on the list which have seen first hand losses. On the list we hear the opinions of those sitting on the bleachers but until you see the problem first hand in your own bees (confirmed by testing) it is hard for me to take those opinions serious. U.S. beeks are now trying to prove that sub level effects are seen with the levels which we find in bee kills. Corn pollen imidacloprid contamination is hard to prove as the test bees have to collect the pollen. At times they do not if a better pollen is available. At least we are past those on BEE-L which said bees never collect corn pollen. Yes we had a few of those. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 11:20:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: neonicotinoids (was Leadership ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In fact the first beekeeper to raise a concern on BEE-L was Allen Dick and > Allen has a huge amount of research on imidacloprid on his website. I have to apologise since the info there is now quite old. I haven't kept it up, and the translator links are non-functional AFAIK (Much of the early experience and reaction was in Europe), but I would consider doing some work on it if there is interest. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/imidacloprid/ --- "A word to the wise is infuriating." -- Hunter S. Thompson ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 14:42:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: neonicotinoids (was Leadership ) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit with all due respects to Bob I only see and hear "claims" with no hard data to back it up when speaking SPECIFICALLY about CORN treatments (not Imid in general) . I don't know about others but my bees health and production are quite variable from year to year so without a rigid study or corn pollen chem analysis I don't see how we can say we have passed the bar of "I have a hunch" versus "I have some data" . Thats why I was surprised to see the strong statement in Kim's blog about corn seed treatments. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 15:30:26 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 30/11/2008 12:32:11 GMT Standard Time, randy@RANDYOLIVER.COM writes: As far as such feeding causing problems downstream, I simply do not find that that to be true. The colonies are invariably healthier and stronger due to the benefit of "proper" feeding. By problems downstream I suspect Dee may be thinking rather longer term; in generations of queens rather than of workers. By supplementary feeding you are doing nothing to de-select those that can't cope unaided with the local environment. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 13:22:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Feeding - formerly Nosema C. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- On Sun, 11/30/08, Chris Slade wrote: In a message dated 30/11/2008 12:32:11 GMT Standard Time, randy@RANDYOLIVER.COM writes: By problems downstream ... longer term; in generations of queens rather than of workers. By supplementary feeding you are doing nothing to de-select those that can't cope unaided with the local environment. Even with Dee's bees, if the honey is over harvested then the bees are going to die of starvation, no matter what kind of genetics they have. I'm thinking a lot of beekeepers harvest as much honey as they can and get a lot higher price for that honey than the cost of the feed needed later on to carry the bees over the winter. However, I may be wrong on this. Mike in LA ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 13:26:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder In-Reply-To: <51DD89540474416AAFA3E2514DED8D78@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen: Considering that some on the list keep bees in areas where the temperatures= get well above 100 degrees F, I wonder if at certain times of year hives are st= erilized of viable nosema spores? =A0 Reply: Don't think so due to fact that collapse followed the the hot sommer months= here and in fact were still enough =A0hot days, with muggy monsoon weather= =A0added still,=A0when first saw signs and eyes lite up with what I was see= ing. So by what you write above lesser chance in spring with prior to main = flow build ups and not following the normal HOT summers......when even 105F= is average. =A0 D =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:46:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >Is Nosema ceranae spread by dysentery (in which case the use of acetic > acid > or similar on equipment before re-use is probably essential) or by > trophyllaxis which would make the use of acetic acid irrelevant (except as > part of > normal good practice against N apis etc). Or by both? Apparently not by dysentery. Is spread by infected pollen. But transmission is poorly understood. >Considering that some on the list keep bees in areas where the temperatures get well above 100 degrees F, I wonder if at certain times of year hives are sterilized of viable nosema spores Apparently, yes. It is a time/temperature curve. 120F does in it a few hours. This is well below comb melting temp. I've been imploring an associate to work out the curve. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 14:54:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Don't think so due to fact that collapse followed the the hot sommer > months here and in fact were still enough hot days, with muggy monsoon > weather added still... Actually, I was thinking of your situation, but rather than thinking the heat would prevent nosema, that the hot summers might cook the equipment enough to make it safe. There was some mention of CCD and I am still waiting for more details about whether it had been independently confirmed and how soon after the occurrence the equipment had been successfully reused. I wondered if your summer temperatures might have had an influence. I also wonder what happened to your neighbouring bees which are suspected of bringing in the new disease. --- > Apparently, yes. It is a time/temperature curve. 120F does in it a few > hours. This is well below comb melting temp. I've been imploring an > associate to work out the curve. That will be interesting. 120 is not that hot, and actually is very likely in boxes stacked in the sun when empty of bees. --- allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2000/diary030300.htm#Singles & Doubles --- Don't be discouraged by a failure. It can be a positive experience. Failure is, in a sense, the highway to success, inasmuch as every discovery of what is false leads us to seek earnestly after what is true, and every fresh experience points out some form of error which we shall afterwards carefully avoid. John Keats (1795 - 1821) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:04:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/30/2008 7:54:29 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, dkburp@FRONTIERNET.NET writes: especially corn seed-treated with the new > neonicitinoid chemicals that protect > the plant for the entire growing season The neonicotinics have been in use for more than a decade. I wouldn't call these new. Jerry **************Finally, one site has it all: your friends, your email, your favorite sites. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000006) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:16:19 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 29/11/2008 22:15:19 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: Not to be the bearer of bad news but if your 200 hives died partly because of nosema ceranae and you reused equipment I predict the problem will surface again at another time. I have been informed off-list that dysentery is not associated with Nosema cerana as it is with N apis; and that it is most probably passed from bee to bee by trophyllaxis and/or by infected adults feeding the larvae. From this it follows that it is not essential to sterilise equipment where Nc is present; however, it is likely that there are other problems also in the hive that would be best kept down, including N.apis. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:23:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Leadership MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit manwithbees@GMAIL.COM writes: Jerry do you or does anyone have any data to support this claim that corn seed treatments are causing big problems? Living in the midst of a sea of corn in MN I know of no one including myself that falls into this category There are some beekeepers on the east coast, MO, and in TX making this claim, and some have had pollen analysis conducted and claim to see buildup of residues in pollen. Almost all talk about poor nutrition being a factor. But, the beekeepers from much of the U.S. corn belt report to us what you are seeing in MN - bees seem to be doing ok. That same issue comes up with Canola - scattered beekeepers blaming neonicotinics or genetically modified plants for bee problems, yet large areas of U.S. and huge portions of Canada have bees on Canola and are not reporting problems. These are the type issues that I hope will be addressed via the dialogue with Bayer, especially if we can establish a better way of tackling these problems, such as the proposed beekeeper advisory board that would work to assist Bayer with respect to the design of testing to answer questions like these. One of the most common claims is that bees on corn are nutritionally stressed and that supplemental feeding with pollen substitutes may 'protect' the bees from pesticide damage. That's possible, although the data for the interaction seems to me to be a bit sketchy. As a scientist, I've been trained to adhere to Occam's Razor which says that the explanation of any _phenomenon_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenon) should make as few assumptions as possible. Following this rule, one might note that corn pollen is known to be of low nutritional value to bees. If the bees are short of good quality pollen, and if the bees collect corn pollen in its place, than perhaps we might propose that the difference is simply a substandard diet? Jerry **************Finally, one site has it all: your friends, your email, your favorite sites. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000006) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:44:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: News from Nebraska MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Nebraska Beekeepers Association: Chemical Free Beekeeping Conference November 21-23 of 2008 in Lincoln, Nebraska Well, a week has passed since the heralded event and we have not had a wrap-up by any of the participants. * Michael Bush wrote this: > Ramona Herboldsheimer had a lot of information that we needed to hear about microbes in the hive and so we allocated extra time for her. I had been aware of the concept but only as a few specifically well known (but usually ignored) relationships such as Chalkbrood fungus preventing EFB; stonebrood fungus preventing Nosema; and Yeasts and bacteria helping to digest the pollen. I had always figured the gut microbes helped with things like Nosema. But when she started talking about not only that these things were going on, but illustrating the extent of the importance of them to the day to day functioning of the hive, and not just their relationship to diseases, and the "heritability" of it being passed on to their swarms but how often those same beneficial microbes not being found in the hive next door, I had one of the paradigm shifts that disrupts your view of the world for a while. I need to get the references now and look up the studies. * Good luck, I have been asking for them for weeks. I know I should have been there. Dean told me I had no business talking about Chemical Free Beekeeping unless I advocated going Cold Turkey, which is their main thing. I wonder if they insisted that of Mike Palmer: > This was followed by the down home wisdom and extensive experience of Michael Palmer sharing how he chooses and raises queens. His method of rearing is similar to, but more simplified than some I've heard and, if I get time to think it through and set it up, I'd like to try it this spring. He also reiterated the importance of locally adapted stock that can survive. His knowledge and enthusiasm for his subject is infectious. Sunday we started the day with Michael Palmer presenting his method of overwintering nucs. It is a blessing to have his years of experiences as a head start to working out how to keep them here in our climate with our equipment. His presentation, as all of his were, was full of little "tips and tricks", down-home beekeeping wisdom and practical advice from out in the field. This was clearly a subject he strongly believes in, is very experienced with and one that Northern beekeepers need to get a grasp of. * Michael Bush adds > This was followed by a very compressed version of my "Lazy Beekeeping" presentation which, while not a presentation of my management methods per se, is a presentation of some isolated techniques and changes in equipment I've made, including no chemicals and no artificial feed, that have simplified my life and saved me a lot of work. I really wanted to get the point across that chemical free beekeeping is not harder, it's easier and simpler. * Incidentally, I know Mike Palmer and I seriously doubt whether he would call his technique lazy beekeeping. That guy works his tail off, as do most of the NY and New England beekeepers I know. If they thought there were an easier way to get things done, I am quite certain that they would try it. * I think it's time we all put our heads together and support the effort to get off chemical treatments. I am all for it, but I don't need to be instructed by greenhorns, especially ones who go on about the virtues of "traditions", traditions we old-timers left behind a long time ago. My point being, let's put our support behind the real bright lights in Bee Research, like Marla Spivak. In the most recent ABJ she writes: > We are interested in selecting diverse stocks of bees for hygienic behavior first ... And we are interested in truth in advertising: We want beekeepers to have some verification that the traits they are paying for are actually present in the bees. * My chief point being: I want to see chemical free beekeeping, but based upon hard work and science, not superstition or laziness. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:47:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: neonicotinoids (was Leadership ) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >with all due respects to Bob I only see and hear "claims" with no hard data >to back it up when speaking SPECIFICALLY about CORN treatments (not Imid in general) . You asked for the data and I explained as best I could that PPM of the neonicotinoids are found in the corn pollen and the MIDGUTS of the dead bees collecting corn pollen. The problem is that Bayer says those levels will not kill the bees.(or even cause sub lethal effects) We have the pollen & dead bee samples. PPM of imidacloprid in the midgut of deadbees has changed a few minds. Finds are being made with PPM in the midguts which even Bayer research SHOWS causes problems in bees. Spending $40,000 of research money ( Penn State) to see if sub lethal doses of imidacloprid are causing problems happened only because beeks like myself pushed for the research to *support* our claims (lawsuit?) Thanks ABF! As beeks we do not want those levels in our bees or their pollen ( nor do we feel we should have to!) and because we have seen deadouts which we believe are caused by the collecting of corn pollen contaminated with PPM of imidacloprid we are concerned and also believe Bayer or a grower needs to pay for our losses. Throw a rock through my window and you have to pay for the window! run into my truck while parked and you have to pay. If my livestock wonders onto the highway I have to pay for your auto damage get my drift! We believe that if we are pollinating 300 acres of seed alfalfa in north Missouri and our bees gather corn pollen from the field next door and crash and burn then the farmer or the maker owes us for some dead hives. If bees are dying then the formula needs CHANGED! Brian you have the right to believe what you like but lets put the shoe on the other foot. What proof or data have you got which proves sub lethal doses of imidacloprid does not harm honey bees other than Bayer data? Research done other than Bayer has shown damage to bees from contaminated pollen but we have been over this subject before and my position is in the archives. Remember the bees have to collect the pollen for a problem to happen. Sitting hives next to corn in Missouri the last two years would not prove to me the corn would not be a problem if collected and feed to brood. Also my California friends do not see a problem mainly because the crops which use the treated seed are rare in California. Why shouldn't i feel any different than the pet or livestock owner which had his pets or livestock die from melamine contaminated food from China. Replacing dead hives costs money. I don't really care what the grower does on the farm next to my bees ( smoke pot or run a still included) until his practices start killing my bees! bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:57:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Raising the bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 30/11/2008 06:43:14 GMT Standard Time, mike_rossander@YAHOO.COM writes: check again with the system administrators to see if they still care about the rule against "excessive" quotes. Often being several days behind with mails, I like to quote sufficient to remind earlier readers of the context of my mails. I do, however, wish that other contributors could learn to be succinct. Maybe with advancing years my attention span isn't what it was, but I find one screenful of words is more than enough and I am as likely to hit the 'delete' rather than the 'scroll' button on longer mails. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:10:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen, Actually, I was thinking of your situation, but rather than thinking the he= at would prevent nosema, that the hot summers might cook the equipment enough = to make it safe. =A0 Reply: Cannot have heat preventing nosema and perhaps other, and not at same time = cooking equip to make it safe, especially with other commercial around me s= till having problems and drenching, except other drenching over near Kings/= Millers ranches not feeding the artificial stuff on top of doing that at sa= me time...........so you figure!!! But question that comes to mind is: If d= renching while feeding does it negate food so to speak to what detriment le= vels???? Especially, if my bees with turn around here from no main flow pri= or now seen spitting out needed so-called pollen/honey or was it look-a-lik= e artificial feed???? If you can see where my mind going and why I ran for = the fresh stuff in another county... to do stimulative feeding...... continuing: There was some mention of CCD and I am still waiting for more details about whether it had been independently confirmed and how soon after the occurren= ce the equipment had been successfully reused.=A0 I wondered if your summer temperatures might have had an influence. =A0 Reply: Well, Dr Loper and secretary took the samples almost immediately following = calling and I seldom call for help for ID stuff and backup to what I am see= ing. and Samples sent to Dr Bromenshenk and he one saying nosema.......but = I had already started taking equipment up going into fall/winter late divid= es which I normally continue on thru spring. So Starting end Oct until begi= nning Apr you have to be done..........But stacked 5 deep in same yards whe= re possible and where I couldn't I took elsewhere, and where I thought it w= ould hold until April (moths for all this takeup by the way as not wanting)= I let it sit, finishing up then. So 6-7 months longest for take up and abo= ut half that done in half that time.So no hot months following the crash, a= ll equip taken up prior to as closer you get to moth season you have troubl= e.....so to speak....... Continuing: I also wonder what happened to your neighbouring bees which are suspected o= f bringing in the new disease. =A0 reply: Word is they still having problems for nearest, and the other in other vall= ey on ranches that only drenched considered year over this past Aug 2008=A0= and needed to do splits badly to take up equip to hold it.....or lose it. A= s for me I still bedding down. and by the way with you saying 60 hives to a= commercial yard for one barrel of honey is not good.....I agree, but yards= with 40 averaged 2 barrels (other ranches) with smaller in 20s/30s less,= =A0and yards here (7) averaged 1 barrel with smallest 3 being about 17hives= now each and others more like in mid 20s to 30s now. But all yards of the = 7 produced at least a barrel to help me break even on my gasoline and labor= , equip, etc. for working them back. But still if I now going into winter w= ith 2-3 bottom deeps with brood/pollen/honey and I cannot lift them even on= one side to heft, then they okay for me vs previous years where feeding 2-= 3-4 frames robinhooding to carry them and praying hard! So depending upon how winter/spring goes could be a turn around year as they now have f= ood storage for gut to crank for coming year. But still I gotta get ready a= nd finish year's work being just me doing it all too! --- continuing: > Apparently, yes.=A0 It is a time/temperature curve.=A0 120F does in it a = few hours.=A0 This is well below comb melting temp.=A0 I've been imploring an associate to work out the curve. =A0 Reply: But equipment didn't go thru a heat spell following..only overwintering/spr= ing and all taken up early April so I could roll and I did...............We= don't get 120F until Jul normally by the way............Even daily temps n= ormally about 70sF perhaps 80F is lucky...but like I said you don't want un= taken up equipment then due to moths or you in big trouble!!!! for stacks n= ot on bees get hotter due to heat transfer thru wood on sides of boxes.....= .and you and most all here should know that.......... continuing: That will be interesting.=A0 120 is not that hot, and actually is very like= ly in boxes stacked in the sun when empty of bees. =A0 Reply: Yep but that is this equipment you talking about....now let's talk another = for you to think of...For all over Arizona in hills with me besides many be= ekeepers is dead equipment dating back in many cases to the late 1980s.....= .......yet if a problem should have shown sooner I would think......but sti= ll a source for free equipment for helping ranches to clean up from other b= eekeepers now out of business and vanished.................and since I have= been called by state in past to help clean up such, and know of others in = other states so doing for free equipment for reconditioning like good deeps= /mediums, etc for we cheap down here.....then you say boxes stacked in the = sun when empty of bees..............like how long? but then have never seen= a problem and do know of many big ones with big bone yards stacked waiting= for you know what................. =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:10:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: News from Nebraska MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > chemical free beekeeping is not harder, it's easier and simpler Right. A lot less extracting and no chance of going to pollination -- as things stand now. Thanks for the update. I'm with you. IPM and resistant stock. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/hygienic.htm --- Success isn't permanent, and failure isn't fatal. Mike Ditka (1939 - ) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:16:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit By supplementary feeding you > are doing nothing to de-select those that can't cope unaided with the > local > environment. It is hard for Randy , Stan , juanse and myself to express our opinion on a mainly hobby list. Dee's bees sit in one location. Our bees are on the move. There is no local area the bees are in or many times a single state. We crank our bees up to levels unseen in most operations. We care little about bees for a local area as we are commercial beeks on the move and leave the bee breeding up to Marla or Sue. I have been in holding yards so loud you had to scream for the beek next to you to hear you. have felt like I had been to a rock concert after work due to the change in noise level. When in California and we are loading semi after semi after almonds I get a cough from being around such a large number of bees. Others report the same thing. I know things we say are hard to grasp but heres a fact which you may have never heard before or seen in print. If you pull a strong hive out of almonds and want to maintain the hive strength at the level at which the hive was pulled while waiting say three weeks for the next pollination a strong hive needs a half gallon of feed a week. Fact. If not fed the queen starts shouting down. stored honey will not entice her to lay eggs at the pace done during the honey flow. feeding is an important tool to the commercial beek. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:26:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Feeding - formerly Nosema C. In-Reply-To: <234837.62967.qm@web53408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike Stoops: Even with Dee's bees, if the honey is over harvested then the bees are going to die of starvation, no matter what kind of genetics they have. Reply: This is what unlimited broodnests are for, with 2-3 deeps of honey/pollen s= tores all around the broodnest and being unable to lift it up, or should yo= u do, you better be able to calculate, by lifting, at least 60-80 lbs plus = of feed, to be able to hold bees on hand, and make more to replace as get o= ld and die throughout the winter months with periodic brooding, besides res= tarting come spring. But normally enough is left and then some to get throu= gh unforsee drought years or average years. For if enough food on hand to k= eep them strong then with shorter main flows....you still obtain critical m= ass bees for doing job and breaking even, even if not bumper crops.......Bu= t to steal all the honey and pollen trap majority of the pollen is wrong an= d then feed back man made stuff and wonder why they sick IMPOV cannot see..= ..now in saying this for short term 6-8 week emergencies perhaps! but conti= nuous?.......that I just don't buy..........and yet some do do it. =A0 Dee=0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:39:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Burrup Subject: Re: Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry I am well aware that imidicloprid has been around a long time. I am not the one that is fingering it. What I am questioning is the sheer frequency that it is being used and the number of formulations it is used in. Is the teacup full?? In our area it is being recomended for control of "everything" from lawn grubs to potato beetles, and is being labeled on a very large percentage of our food crops. I do not really think that it is the problem in CCD, if it was there would be CCD in all the bees. The only way that a beek can avoid it is to move completely away from Agriculture. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Bromenshenk" To: Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Imidacloprid ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:07:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob wrote: > It is hard for Randy , Stan , juanse and myself to express our opinion on mainly hobby list. Actually, it appears to be quite easy for you to express your opinion. Thanks for your participation over the years! However, there is no need to dismiss others as "hobbyists" or "amateurs" any more than there is need for others to dismiss you as a "box wrangler" or "bee trucker". After all, the word amateur means somebody who does something they love, and if you don't at least like what you do, too bad for you. PS I almost died laughing when Juanse referred to you as "sabelotodo Bob". I am sure he meant it affectionately Pete ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 11:09:21 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: News from Nebraska MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote quoting Michael Bush > I had been aware of the concept but only as a few specifically well known > (but usually ignored) relationships such as Chalkbrood fungus preventing > EFB; I haven't heard of this one. I have heard of chalkbrood supposedly stopping AFB which in my experience is not right. I have seen plenty of case with both AFB and chalkbrood in the same hive. Where does this claim about stopping EFB come from? I have seen a couple of cases of both EFB (my diagnosis) and chalkbrood in the same hive. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:28:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US In-Reply-To: <60D7C29EE8354699ACB6B9B92F6B0D96@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob: I have been in holding yards so loud you had to scream for the beek next to you to hear you. have felt like I had been to a rock concert after work due to the change in noise level. When in California and we are loading semi after semi after almonds I get a cough from being around such a large number of bees. Others report the same thing. Reply: You know this is normal really, and Ed and I stopped migratory pollenation = back in late 1970s/early 1980s to never want to do it again. Used to go to = Almonds in beginning and even citrus over in Florida but just stopped......= ...I fully know well the flying levels of bees for normal commercial work y= ou speak of and noise levels.......but most hobbyist and sideline do not!..= .......and yet videos of me doing simple walk away splits are tooted by som= e to be AHBs really flying and causing a fuss, while all I am help are doin= g is walking away with simple splits with full boxes of nurse bees, honey/p= ollen and setting down into empty equipment and without using smoke as much= as possible, for the object is to keep the nurse bees and older foragers t= hen have to fly home, etc.....nothing hard........yet, what a mental poundi= ng you can receive for showing simple commercial divides and yet trashing y= ards as recently spoken about, and splitting to the 4 winds, etc is just the same!!! But don't see anyone tagging you guys with killers all ov= er the place and yet, when beekeepers do come here to work bees the opposit= e is seen with then normal working and not out of ordinary work situations = for fast splits or other. =A0 But then you learn to let it bounce off you and go on........for it keeps t= he rift rath out and less competition for areas..........with those then re= ally wanting to get into commercial beekeeping really wanting to learn.....= .... =A0 But loved the post and your describtions throughout Bobbie...............Ha= ve fun this coming spring again.............and hope yours and others bees = make it thru....... =A0 Dee=0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:32:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: News from Nebraska In-Reply-To: <41A77A38E19C4939853E8BC90F224CD3@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen, this little few paragraphs of what really was written=A0was cute.....but yo= u ought to read the whole thing and not just 2-3 paragraphs.........like so= und bites. for Michael really gave a long well written oversight of what we= nt on with all there. =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:36:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in feeder In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, Guess well all see in the future if the problem surfaces again.............= but what if it doesn't?For I shall certainly note that back!!! =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:48:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Raising the bar Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ok, I'm gonna run a test here to see where the bar is being set. We need to know this if we are to continue here. I think the moderators will have no choice other than to approve such a fine letter. It meets all the criteria for a high quality letter, no excessive quoting, and the facts are all there, BTW -as do all my letters! ;) First day of deer season here in Pennsylvania is on Monday, so here is a Fine Buck / Bee story. Southport American Friday, June 23, 1848 South Port, Wisconsin A TOUGH STORY.- "As I was once hunting on the banks of the Sarara," said John Hawking, a sportsman, famous for shooting, both with a long rifle and a long bow. "I saw a fine buck on the other side of the river, and blazed away at him. Just as I drew trigger, a big salmon leaped up in the middle of the stream, right between me and the deer. Fish and buck both dropped. Quick as thought, I stripped, jumped in, secured the salmon and made for the deer. After passing through him, I found the ball had bored into a bee tree, and the honey was running out in a stream as large as a gun barrel. I Looked around for something to plug up the hole with, but there was nothing at hand but a rabbit. So I caught him up and tried to jam his tail into the hole, but he struggled so hard that he made me mad, and flung him away so hard, that I knocked over three braces of partridges and a woodcock with him. >From the Historical Honeybee Articles Files > 15) Tall Tales - Bee Stories Best Wishes, Joe ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:35:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US In-Reply-To: <60D7C29EE8354699ACB6B9B92F6B0D96@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >It is hard for Randy , Stan , juanse and myself to express our opinion >> on a >> mainly hobby list. Dee's bees sit in one location. Our bees are on the >> move. > > >By problems downstream I suspect Dee may be thinking rather longer term; in generations of queens rather than of workers. By supplementary feeding you are doing nothing to de-select those that can't cope unaided with the local environment. I've got no beef with Dee. In my presentations I strongly support the development of locally-adapted stocks. However, west of the Rockies it doesn't rain during the summer, and pasture dries up. I'm amazed when I travel east to see how much easier beekeeping is where it rains! Any rancher would not think twice about supplemental feeding his starving cattle during drought, no matter how well adapted the stock was. I do the same with my bees. The point is, as has been mentioned several times, as soon as you establish a beeyard, it is no longer natural. Do to competition, there may not be adequate nutrition between flows. So you can either let the bees starve (due to the unnatural density of colonies), move them to better pasture, or feed. Even with locally adapted stock, beekeepers will seek out the most productive apiary sites. Even locally adapted stock may not survive everywhere in a locality. Some claim that feeding bees will result in a cascade of bee health problems, not just an overall genetic weakening. I dispute that contention. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:48:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: <7570514833534E3A8075AD2FD503CF12@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen, For the Acarine 1959 reported in the states given and nosema from Austraili= a simply go to archives in Wash D.C. for Beltsville quarterly reports for t= hat year of survey of whole USA they were doing.....nothing hard and then r= ead. Or ask Beltsville or one of labs with copies to pull up quarterly file= s to read from our private libraries paid for by tax dollars at the various= labs. Then go back further if you want all the way to 1917 or earlier and = smile............!!! =A0 Dee --- On Sun, 11/30/08, allen wrote: From: allen Subject: Re: [BEE-L] A Sustainable Commercial Model? To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 10:03 AM Going back to the message at http://tinyurl.com/5o7lrj , There are still many unanswered questions, and a clarification. Please excuse the repetition, but no response has been received for a numbe= r of interesting and novel claims. --- >> Old eqjuip from the 7 CCD yards was reused, with nothing done to it. >=20 > I have heard conflicting reports. Was it really CCD? If so, then your comments, above, seem to conflict with one of the defining criteria for identifying bona fide CCD. I have not seen a reply to this. There was, I believe, however, a question asked about how long CCD equipmen= t is contaminated. >> Saw nosema NO PROBLEM as identified by Dr Bromenshenk, >=20 > Dr. Fischer reported a different version of the story here recently and that a treatment was used if I understand him correctly. Can you address t= hat? I re-read all my material and could not find any reference to treatment, an= d you have confirmed that you did not treat, so I withdraw that and apologise= , again, as I did some time back by email. This was answered. >> looking at samples from all around the USA from bee colonies kept in the USA, that for some reason showed origin of bees also from Australia! >> so question in my mind: What they doing in USA? >=20 > Maybe some samples were sent over from Oz, and not taken from US bees? Still waiting for an answer. >> ... other states in USA then showing POSITIVE samples for Nosema that also included the other maladies from same samples and showing positive for= AFB, EFB, para, Sac, Sept, Acarine, insective poisoning were... >=20 > Positive for acarine in 1959? Citations please. Still waiting >> ... except I did not use treatments as don't beleive in then, nor artifricial feeds but instead used live and let die and breed from the stro= ng and let the weak go.and also for the record each yard has made a barrel of = honey and some more!! immediate year following. > You mention no stats on how many were originally standing and when, how many died and when, How many splits were made and when, and when the recove= ry was complete and count was made, what the numbers were. I know commercial beekeepers keep detailed notes, so I'm trusting you can give us numbers. Fo= r the record. No reply yet. > A barrel of honey from 60 hives is not much, but maybe the yard is only ten hives? Seems to me that your yards are much larger than that, though. How big was the yard, before and after? > Thanks for taking the time to write this out clearly. I look forward to details that will help me understand this in real terms. Still waiting. > I was thinking of the earlier period. However, let me add that my understanding is that recovering numbers in the south is not hard if no hon= ey is to be produced. In the north, successfully splitting up to 16 from one has= been well-documented and in a short season area. So please explain why recoveri= ng numbers as reported is so remarkable? I must be missing something. Still wondering. >> Now, let me say, I can dig deeper into my files should it be wanted with more for discussion. I'm hoping you are dong that, since quite a few people wonder at the generality of statements made, and the lack of numbers. Thank you in advance allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ --- "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." Friedrich Nietzsche=20 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:12:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > For the Acarine 1959 reported in the states given and nosema from > Austrailia simply go to archives in Wash D.C. for Beltsville quarterly > reports for that year of survey of whole USA they were doing.....nothing > hard and then read. Or ask Beltsville or one of labs with copies to pull > up quarterly files to read from our private libraries paid for by tax > dollars at the various labs. Then go back further if you want all the way > to 1917 or earlier and smile............!!! Actually, Dee, I asked you for the specific excerpt, not an evasion like that. Moreover, there were a lot more unanswered questions in the long post you quoted in its entirety, but did not address. I wasn't born yesterday. You know perfectly well you are just sending me on a wild goose chase. If you had the requested data, you would have provided it, so I must assume you don't. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/styro_hives.htm --- Try as hard as we may for perfection, the net result of our labors is an amazing variety of imperfectness. We are surprised at our own versatility in being able to fail in so many different ways. Samuel McChord Crothers ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:21:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen > Positive for acarine in 1959? Citations please. Dee >For the Acarine 1959 reported in the states given and nosema from Austrailia simply go to archives in Wash D.C. for Beltsville quarterly reports for that year of survey of whole USA they were doing This post is a classic example of what should be rejected. She quotes the entire previous post and answers none of the questions. Unless you call "simply go to Wash D.C." an answer, which it is not. There is a difference between using references to support a claim you are making or using references to distract from the fact you have no support whatever. Evidently, some people think that references are some sort of decoration, pretty to look at but not much use, really. Meanwhile, the rest of us have compiled extensive libraries of actual work and can produce it on demand. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:57:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I could not agree more. Hope I was not too brutal. allen -------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter L Borst" Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 6:21 PM To: Subject: Re: [BEE-L] A Sustainable Commercial Model? > Allen > Positive for acarine in 1959? Citations please. > > Dee >For the Acarine 1959 reported in the states given and nosema from > Austrailia simply go to archives in Wash D.C. for Beltsville quarterly > reports for that year of survey of whole USA they were doing > > This post is a classic example of what should be rejected. She quotes the > entire previous post and answers none of the questions. Unless you call > "simply go to Wash D.C." an answer, which it is not. > > There is a difference between using references to support a claim you are > making or using references to distract from the fact you have no support > whatever. > > Evidently, some people think that references are some sort of decoration, > pretty to look at but not much use, really. Meanwhile, the rest of us have > compiled extensive libraries of actual work and can produce it on demand. > > pb > > ******************************************************* > * Search the BEE-L archives at: * > * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * > ******************************************************* ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:22:37 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: News from Nebraska In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, > Incidentally, I know Mike Palmer and I seriously doubt whether he > would call his technique lazy beekeeping. This is a classic example of what should have not been allowed to pass moderators approval. Nowhere in what Michael Bush wrote did it say that Michael Palmer is a lazy beekeeper or that he contributed to Michael Bush's presentation of Bush's "Lazy Beekeeping" Presentation. Here was the spreading of false information, putting a spin on words, and an outright lie of what was actually wrote by Michael Bush. This kind of journalism happens on BEE-L enough that it makes my stomach sick. This is spreading misinformation and in need of a defense, of which it will not get unless someone is allowed to defend it. Michael Bush will not come on BEE-L to defend his own words because what he says will be spun to death to where one would not any longer know right from wrong. There is no justice and the unjust just keep right on going and playing their game. This is the type stuff that got the last round of trouble going for Aaron and unless this is put to a stop this will be my last post. I know this probably really disappoints most all here. However, I will remain on the list to read and be here only as support for others on the list I know personally. God Bless, Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska klm@gci.net ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:22:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry about the quotes. I had assumed that the message from Pedro that I was replying to was personal, not from the list. Where are the moderators when you need them? allen ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:25:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Actually, it appears to be quite easy for you to express your opinion. When it comes to beekeeping yes. >PS I almost died laughing when Juanse referred to you as "sabelotodo Bob". >I am sure he meant it affectionately i actually laughed also as I speak some Spanish . A single Spanish cuss word always makes the help pick up the pace. Here is a funny true story about Hispanic help. A friend in Florida which ran around 50,000 hives and hired around 50+ Hispanic workers was looking out his office window and saw a large group of workers standing around when work was needed done. he kept getting upset as the workers visited after around fifteen minutes. He finally ran out to break the visiting up and tripped over the forks of a Bobcat one of the workers had left about a foot off the ground and broke both his wrists. I arrived the next day to help with a problem and had a hard time not laughing when he told me what happened. He had casts on both wrists up to the elbow. True story Dee and you can verify when you speak with the beek as you know the beek I speak of. You NEVER park a forklift with the forks off the ground. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:12:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US In-Reply-To: <440167.21333.qm@web51608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > showing simple commercial divides and yet trashing yards as recently > spoken about, and splitting to the 4 winds, etc is just the same!!! Not the same, Dee. I often do the same without veil or gloves if there is any flow on, and the camera person doesn't wear a veil. There is no angry roar in the air, and not a single bee would ever hit the camera lens. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:53:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: News from Nebraska Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have heard of chalkbrood supposedly stopping >AFB which in my experience is not right. I have seen plenty of case with >both AFB and chalkbrood in the same hive. Where does this claim about >stopping EFB come from? I read in an article in one of the bee mags about 10 or more years ago that stated chalk brood has some fatty acid known as linoleic acid, which has antimicrobial activity against bacterial honeybee pathogens. Linoleic acid is found in in vegtable oils, and in higher amounts in peanut oil. You can perhaps google linoleic acid and foulbrood and get some info. PS. I still have enough oils and greases stocked up from when I used treatments to open my very own Jiffy Lube. Best Wishes, Joe FeralBeeProject.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 00:55:33 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: neonicotinoids (was Leadership ) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 8:47 PM, Bob Harrison wrot= e: : "Other than Stan ,Juanse and myself I do not know of any others on the list which have seen first hand losses." Correction: My losses were from an other Bayer product, not based on neonicotinoids . I suffer the losses under the hands of Sevin XR Plus, a carbamat based insecticide. This year I contacted the apple grower in my area. They were reluctant to change their application schemes. In summ the different apple fields, scheduled an application each other day for 10 days or so. I finally got the first day of application date from the closest apple grower and potencially the one that did the Bad Application from past year episode (bee kill). I could not stop them or get my hives out of the area. Blueberry I was pollinating need some two more weeks to finnish bloom. I was forced to change my plans in a catch 22. An cause each massive hive intervention is the opportunity for an experiment I did one. The question was: Was a bad application of a registered product or is the product in itself? Probably the answer up to now is the first one. I was expecting that if it was a bad application, the pressure I made over the apple grower was enough for them to be very carefull this season, and I will not suffer mayor losse= s was my bet. If it was the product in itself I will have mayor losses. Instead of leaving all as it was, that was 300 full brood boxes and the first super installed. Some of those super were half full by the first day of application at fly range from my hives. I divided the operation in two groups of 150 hives each. To group A, I took out all capped_brood frames and one with honey/pollen from the side. We filled those 4 to 6 frames we had taken out with drawn comb from the suppers. All honey in the hive was given back well spread between colonies of the same stand. The idea was to lower the total population risk and to make new families to replace the ones left. You know just in case. We took out of the 150 group A hives =3D 250 new two frames families (plus = a v. queen we ad prepared ad hoc). We used as honey for those nucs, what we have took out, plus "nosema contaminated honey frames" from the dead ones i= n the winter/spring and we also supplement with 2 litres of liquid sucrose 67= =B0 brix. Only on one of the 5 apiaries (50 hives each) the success was low. we treated with amitraz those nucs after fecundations dates were over and mixe= d the drone laying ones on 10 frames brood boxes with a queen right one. We loked at The group A colonies again after 30 days of previous manipulation. They have filled up the empty frames, capped the honey, latte= r after the flow they changed honey for brood. . After a month or so from the Sevin 2008 applications, we supered them and took them to the mountain honey sites. No losses at all. The usual drone layer or failed queen hives we added a nuc with newspaper paper before moving it to the mountains. Group B was left as it was. 75% with a supper on. After a month the single= s were more than ready for a super or useless. >From group B we took only a barrel of honey: most of the queen had lay in the supper. We moved them to the mountain sites at mid term of Tineo flow. They filled a supper plus in 4 days. We placed a second and third super last friday. I had a case in court to know a restricted report prepared by our Agricultural Autorithy (AgA) about 2007 Sevin bee kill I had. The oposition of this specific apple grower did not allowed the AgA to facilitate me the report. There was a change in bloom dates between 2007 and 2008 season that could have played in favour of the bees working other flower sources than apples during the applications dates. How ever, I am disgusted with Mr Bayer. After m mail, he mailed me back asking for specific detail, and latter never again answer back my specific questions. I insist that they trick and confuse the audience by playing wit= h convertions. The case is self evident and Bayer, to be fair and keep their image up, should help the beekeeper in this cases of bad application . Justice is slow but should come. Some one had to pay for my losses, or at least say sorry. --=20 Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * *******************************************************