From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:06:38 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.1 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, ADVANCE_FEE_3,AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C752B4889B for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y6m017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:36 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0812D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 151543 Lines: 3527 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:26:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The problem with Apis cerana In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, I have done my homework on cerana and actually suggested a cerana introduction might not be such a bad deal years ago. The paper Peter presents is 18 years old. Since then we have quite a bit of new information. In certain areas of China cerana is kept by commercial beeks and the size in certain areas is close to mellifera. Yields are much higher than 4 kg. per hive. Beeks which went on the China beekeeping tour said 25 kg. and up at times. The hives they were shown were smaller than the melifera they were shown. The main way cerana survives varroa jacobsoni is the fact only in very rare instances is varroa able to reproduce in cerana worker brood. . >Through millions of years of being parasitized by the mite, the bees appear >to have developed some degree of resistance to its attacks. This statement is pure BS. Varroa jacobsoni was first noticed and discovered in 1904 so to say V.J has been a parasite of cerana for MILLIONS of years is a big leap. The above is the kind of statement presenters do not make when I am sitting in the front row of a presentation as I will call their hand everytime. Just as much proof exists V.J. might have first parasitized cerana in say 1903. I realize Peter took the statement out of context but without a doubt the number one reason cerana survives V.J. is the mite not being able to reproduce in cerana worker brood and NOT abscounding although abscounding in feral colonies would help for sure.. Yes in rare cases a v.J. has been found in a few worker brood but the worlds researchers and most published information says V.J. does not reproduce in cerana worker brood. Ever! bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 19:35:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Trade of bees In-Reply-To: <8746db150812211619w167ea114xa2fd7654d256723e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline > > Dear Martin, I am sorry that you feel threatend by my statements about t= he > likelihood of parasite transmission in shipments of bees. I already post= ed > that arguments could be made to continue trade in bees. > > >Your above mentioned assertion, although apparently obvious and based on > common sense, is far from being supported by strong scientific evidence. Actually, there is plenty of evidence that bee parasites do not spread across oceans unaided. Is all your scientific evidence just based on the four pages (160 to 164) o= f > the book entitled =ABInfectious Disease Ecology=BB that you found on Amaz= on? i actually own the book, and merely referred to those four pages for those who did not have the entire book at hand. > >So you suggest the best way to avoid new pests and diseases is to stop t= he > transportation of living organisms=85? Actually, that would indeed stop the introduction of new pests. > >This Howard Hughes approach to preserve the health of honeybees will dri= ve > us to insanity as it did for him. After the U.S. banned imports of bees in the 1920's, we were able to exclud= e a number of pests for quite a few years, yet did not notice any increase in the rate of insanity of U.S. beekeepers above the normal baseline. Has it done so in Argentina? > > >Maybe a future development of your recommendation could be to stop > incoming migratory colonies from non-California states to accomplish almo= nd > pollination in California. California beekeepers would love that! If we had been able to do that in the early 1960's we would likely still be free of chalkbrood, tracheal mite= , varroa, small hive beetle, Nosema ceranae, etc! Unfortunately, the politic= s of trade and profit prevailed, and we now suffer from all those introduced diseases. > >We human beings are all dangerous living organisms carrying unknown and > lethal microorganisms, aren`t we? Some of us more so than others. > > >Do you also have an epidemiological contingency plan to prevent or to > eradicate the migration of swallows from California to Argentina? I'm afraid that you are straying futher from the subject than the swallows stray from Capistrano. The swallows engage in a natural migration that has been going on before there were humans or honeybees in California or Argentina. Humans alone carried honeybees, and later their parasites. > >It looks as if your paradigm is a mythical state of purity enjoyed by > honeybees in America Hardly mythical--I personally enjoyed it for some time! Neither would I consider the West Australian beekeepers' freedom from EFB, tracheal mite, o= r varroa a myth. You can ask beekeepers there yourself. They appeared to me to be pretty grounded in reality. And they have rather strict importation protocols. >started back in year 1622 with the > first documented successful introduction of honeybees in North America an= d > the consequent displacement of plenty of adapted native species of > pollinators....We simply ignore how devastating its effect was on the fer= al > population of the American aboriginal native pollinators. Off topic again, but I've seen little data to support this contention. However, I have seen data to the contrary. >It is a miracle Varroa > mites were not introduced over 100 years ago accidentally, through Benton > efforts to import different races of honeybees. Yes indeed. But some beekeepers feel that we should not trust in miracles, but rather proactively attempt to avoid the introduction of new pathogens. > > >I do not think that the ostrich approach of burying > the head in the sand, is the best way to stop exotic diseases from enteri= ng > into new territories. I totally agree! Can you suggest a better approach to stop exotic diseases from entering? > > >You can access the O.IE. Terrestrial Animal Health Code which includes a > specific chapter on bee diseases...O.I.E. has been recognized as the > international standard setting body for animal diseases. Allow me to quote from the document. The following paragraph is for varroa= , but is similar to that for other parasites: "A country [that has a varroa eradication programme] may be considered free from varroosis after conducting a *risk assessment*...and when: for the 3 years following the last reported *case*= of varroosis, an annual survey supervised by the *Veterinary Authority*, with negative results, have been carried out on a representative sample of = * apiaries*in the country or *zone* /*compartment*(under study) to provide a confidence level of at least 95% of detecting varroosis if at least 1% of the *apiaries*were infected at a within- *apiary*prevalence rate of at least 5% of the hives; such surveys may be targeted towards areas with a higher likelihood of *disease* ;" I don't know about you, Martin, but if I were an Australian, I wouldn't be very comfortable if the government allowed the import of bees from an area that inspected at the 95% confidence level of finding varroa if 5% of the hives were infected. I'm not sure that the document that you cited helps beekeepers to feel protected enough to sleep soundly. > > >Like it or not, agree or disagree we have some ways to mitigate and redu= ce > the impact of animal diseases. Like the way we mitigate the impact of varroa? How do you suggest that we mitigate the impact of Tropilaelaps? > >I am afraid that we do not have 100% certainty but a high probability to > avoid their accidental introduction. However, limiting the movement of > animals is not a realistic approach. Actually, it has worked quite well in reality. I would suggest that that fact indicates that it is indeed a realistic approach. Martin, I realize that your income depends upon shipping bees to other countries. The income of all beekeepers in my country depends upon having healthy bees. When those two goals are at odds, the benefit to the many ma= y outweigh the profit of the few. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:11:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: The problem with Apis cerana MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:26:09 -0600, Bob Harrison wrote: >>Through millions of years of being parasitized by the mite, the bees appear >>to have developed some degree of resistance to its attacks. > >This statement is pure BS. > >Varroa jacobsoni was first noticed and discovered in 1904 so to say V.J has >been a parasite of cerana for MILLIONS of years is a big leap. You're joking, right? Louis Pasteur discovered heating milk killed disease causing bacteria in the 1860s but we don't suppose there weren't bacteria before that. The estimated age of bacteria is in the billions of years. Anderson writes > The extent of genetic variation that has been uncovered among V. jacobsoni infesting A. cerana in Asia is remarkable, and probably reflects a long period of co-evolution between the mite and the bee. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:46:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: The problem with Apis cerana In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Apis cerana China did not become the world's leading honey producer with Apis cerana. It wasn't until they built up the largest population of Apis mellifera of any country. -- pb * * * On varroa Studies show that only two of the 18 different haplotypes concealed within the complex of mites infesting A. cerana have become pests of A. mellifera worldwide. Both belong to V. destructor, and they are not V. jacobsoni. The remarkably close correlation of their biogeography with the biogeography of the mite species and haplotypes described reflects the natural host-parasite relationship that has long existed between A. cerana and Varroa mites, and suggests that further discoveries of variants of A. cerana will probably lead to discoveries of new variants of Varroa. Given that the Indian A. cerana differs from A. cerana in Sri Lanka and Nepal, we predict that new variants of Varroa await discovery in India. -- D.L. Anderson ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:42:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Trade of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin said: > So you suggest the best way to avoid new pests and diseases > is to stop the transportation of living organisms? Under WTO rules as they stand, there is little chance of stopping such trade completely even if we wanted. What WOULD help would be the port-of-entry inspections that work so well for Australia and New Zealand at keeping those countries free of invasive bee pests. Certainly Martin cannot deny the USA the same level of concern that his own country has about invasive exotic diseases and pests, can he? Argentina has done actual surveys to support their contention that they are free of Small Hive Beetle and the Tropilaelaps mite, and they have set up a national vet authority to comply with WTO rules, so they are interested enough in blocking imports to declare themselves "pest free" for both those pests. (Pity about the AHB, though. Hope you can somehow still keep from finding them in the province of Buenos Aires.) I see no reason to allow the importation of living creatures without some level of disease and pest screening. To our knowledge, bees are the only living creatures not inspected at USA port-of-entry on at least a sampling/screening basis. > The US border was closed to all bee imports... from 1922 until 2005. > I am not aware of any legal importation made in your country during > this period of 83 years. However, in the meantime the US was invaded > by tracheal mites (1984), varroa mites (1987), Africanized honey bees > (1990) and small hive beetles (1998). All this events predate the > opening of the border to trade, both Australian and New Zealand imports. Martin is simply unaware of the actual history. There were quite a few "imports of bees" into the USA between 1992 and 2005, but there were multiple factors behind them: 1) Containerized multi-mode freight, which grew in the late 1970s, resulting in goods that could move planetwide fast enough that swarms of bees would survive the trip. 2) A massive cutback in the regulatory oversight power of the US Interstate Commerce Commission in 1955, which allowed fully integrated ship-rail-truck "door to door" shipping to be booked and even provided by single carriers. 3) Deregulation of rates charged for maritime shipments in 1984 (trucking and rail were deregulated in the 1970s), which made it more profitable to import goods from the other side of the planet. Right about this time, Sam Walton died, and Wal-Mart changed its tag line from "Made In the USA" to "Always Low Prices", which should have been a clue. 4) The changes to GATT Article XX(b) (Sanitary and Phytosanitary "SPS") regulations in the Uruguay Round of GATT, in 1986. The change made in much harder for a country to limit imports based upon health and safety concerns. This grew into the draconian SPS rules of the current WTO agreement, which force countries to accept diseased and contaminated shipments simply because they had one diseased/contaminated shipment slip through in the past, thus "establishing" a pest or disease in the receiving country. The result was that, in the 1980s, a lot of containers were suddenly being sealed at an inland location away from ports and their inspectors, being opened for the first time at their ultimate destination, and getting to those destinations faster than ever before. Needless to say, the odds of swarms being delivered along with the goods were rather high. (The odds were good that the goods were odd!) There was also overtly legal "trade in bees" during this period. The factors that enhanced the pest-and-disease carrying capacity of these imports include: 5) The Canadian border closure of 1987. What resulted was Canada buying bees from overseas, yet bees still were allowed to be sold in queen and package form to the USA with nothing more than a cursory level of paperwork. 6) There are multiple US beekeepers who were able to bring truckloads of full hives from Canada into the USA, apparently under the rules intended to allow "packages". While "bees on comb" should have been disallowed, the border was managed informally in the 1980s and 1990s, and apparently, import paperwork was not specific as to the difference between a "packages" of bees and actual "hives" of bees. So, the way the USA has been doing things, any and all trade is potentially "trade in bees", but it should be clear that actual overt shipping of thousands of packages of bees at a time multiple times per year is an excellent way to get a new bee pest or disease on our shores, and are the obvious first type of "trade" to start sampling and screening. The establishment of Apis ceranae in Australia is proof that shipments need to be screened at port of entry. Australia continues to blame a sailboat, but the number of swarms they ended up finding tends to indicate that the sailboat mast was merely where a swarm from the original colony went, and was not the first swarm to arrive. And while stringent biosecurity with inspections of all freight for hitchhiking bees (as done by NZ and Oz) would be nice, we should start by admitting that we can't stand by and let any opportunity to sample and screen pass us by. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:36:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The problem with Apis cerana In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said; >>Varroa jacobsoni was first noticed and discovered in 1904 so to say V.J >>has >>been a parasite of cerana for MILLIONS of years is a big leap. > You're joking, right? I am not. Louis Pasteur discovered heating milk killed > disease causing bacteria in the 1860s but we don't suppose there > weren't bacteria before that. The estimated age of bacteria is in the > billions of years. Why would you even compare a blood sucking mite to a bacteria? Show me some proof the mite was not sucking on another host and simply changed hosts around 1904? The Chinese notice small details. My point is varroa J. could well have been a parasite of another insect and only transfered to cerana around the time first noticied. Documented and named. After all varroa can be seen with the naked eye eye. Especially on a small bee like cerana. The statement the author of your 1990 paper saying V.J. has been a parasite of cerana for MILLIONS of years can not be proved unless a fossel mite is foundon a fossel bee. Provide such an example to prove your point and I will concede V.j has been a parasite of cerana for millions of years. Are you going to agree I have a valid point? > > Anderson writes >> The extent of genetic variation that has been uncovered among V. >> jacobsoni infesting A. cerana in Asia is remarkable, and probably >> reflects a long period of co-evolution between the mite and the bee. I am a fan of Anderson for sure but what Anderson says is a bit different than what the 1990 article said. Anderson: "PROBABLY reflects a long period of co-evolution between the mite and the bee" Bob Harrison: We have a documented 104 year period for sure and a big unknown before 1904. 1990 author: "Through millions of years of being paratizied by the mite the bees have developed some degree of resistance to its attacks" *If* the author had done as Anderson did and placed the word *probably* at the start of the sentence I would have let it slide. Still what you did not comment on is that the main reason in the 1990 paper ( although there are others with cerana such as opening drone cells and removing V.J.) for cerana handling Vj is the absconding and not the fact VJ does not reproduce in worker cells. If the same was true with mellifera V.d. would not be much of an issue with mellifera in my opinion. The piece you posted seemed to indicate absconding was the *main* reason cerana handles V.J which is simply not true. I would rate absconding behind 1. Vj. not able to reproduce in worker cells 2. V.J removal from cells. In fact cerana leaves a pin hole in its cells until the last possible time which is believed so cerana can detect and remove V.j 3. very short postcapping time as compared to mellifera 4. absconding (could be no. 3 but I still would say 4.) bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:59:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Trade of bees In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10812211935w56abcc1bl793cd77798476407@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Martin, I hope that my answers did not sound flippant to you. I have the greatest respect for the business that you have built, and wish you the best of continued success. The problem with bee parasites are that once they are introduced onto a continent, they are dang near impossible to eradicate. E.g., only one single female varroa mite is all it will take to eventually change the continent of Australia from the status of varroa free to varroa infested. There are two big differences between introducing a parasite to honey bees rather than to other crops or livestock. One, bees are highly mobile, and two, there is an unmanaged feral population that can act as a parasite reservoir. For many parasites and pests of livestock, the model is sort of like baking cookies. If you screw up, you can clean up the mess (with an eradication program) and start over. However, with bees, the model is more like Russian Roulette. Once a parasite is introduced it is final--there is no going back. Going back to the 95% confidence level of discovery statistics for inspection for parasites, it is more akin to playing Russian Roulette with 20 chambers, one of which is loaded. Now if the testing were done at the 99.999% confidence level, we would all feel more comfortable. Unfortunately, we can't afford that, except with protocols such as Australia uses to import breeder queens. I am well aware that parasite introductions are likely often by illegal bee imports, such as in suitcases and fountain pens. That sort of behavior by beekeepers is either out of ignorance, or reprehensibly irresponsible. But it is a reality. Such illegal movement can be expected to inadvertently(?) move parasites. But the scale of opportunity for parasite introduction by this method pales by comparison to the large-scale movement of organisms through legal trade. Randy Oliver, who only recently saw his first small hive beetle. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:50:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Co-evolution of bees and mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob writes: > Show me some proof the mite was not sucking on another host and simply changed hosts around 1904? The Chinese notice small details. In the more than one hundred years that varroa has been known, it has been studied far and wide. Everyone, including these Chinese authors, agrees that Apis cerana is its primary host. I had never heard anybody suggest it moved from some other host. So I wonder why you think that and how you would back that up? I could provide a stack of paper as high as a house saying: > The mite, Varroa jacobsoni Oudemans, was originally described as an ectoparasite of the Asian honey bee, Apis cerana Fabr. (Oudemans, 1904). Since the mite was originally a parasite of the Asian honey bee, it has had a long evolutionary association with the bee with the result that the host has evolved resistance which maintains the infestation at low level. Our observations clearly indicate that the Asian bees have evolved both a physiological and a behavioral adaptation to the parasitism of Varroa jacobsoni. The worker bees are physiologically sensitive to the parasitism of the mites, which allows them to respond immediately ... "The Resistance Mechanism of the Asian Honey Bee, Apis cerana to Varroa jacobsoni" YING-SHIN PENG, Department of Entomology, University of California, Davis, California 95616 YUENZHEN FANG, SHAOYU XU, AND LISHENG GE, lnstitute of Apicultural Research, Academy of Agricultural Sciences, Beijing, People's Republic of China writing in the JOURNAL OF INVERTEBRATE PATHOLOGY 49, 54-60 (1987) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:36:26 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Bees Scare Caterpillars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting story from BBC at http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/science/nature/7796138.stm Jerry **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. The NEW AOL.com.(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000019) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:54:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Co-evolution of bees and mites In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter and All, To sum up there is no proof published saying V.J. predates the 1904 date. So saying V.J. dates back millions of years can not be proven. Possibly a believable hypothesis but certainly not provable from my looking through stacks of papers. Also from looking through the book Asian Apiculture ( 700 pages) which sits on my desk. The book is based on the proceedings of the first International Conference on the Asia Honey Bees and Bee Mites. Probable : maybe provable: certainly not My second problem with the paper you posted is the absconding hypothesis. Not sure where the author found his source but certainly NOT the number one reason for cerana control of V.j. I have done many posts on cerana on BEE-L but kind of dropped the subject due to lack of interest from other members but a search with my name and cerana will pull up quite a bit of information. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:51:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Co-evolution of bees and mites Comments: To: Bob Harrison Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob asked for fossil proof of varroa mite and bees cohabited for millions of years. We don't have that, of course, but in the genes of various creatures is the equivalent of a fossil record of how long they have been around and to which other species they may be related. Differences in species and differences in types within species are reflected by differences in the genetic makeup. Comparing these differences allows us to estimate the age of various similar species and speculate on when they may have arisen from a common ancestor. For example, it is assumed that the various honey bee species arose from a common ancestor, which no longer exists. It may have been a tropical bee in Africa which spread to other parts of the world. Not only are there now other species in Europe and Asia but these species are separated out into types (also known as races). Using the molecular clock, estimates can be made as to how many thousands or millions of years have elapsed for these changes to take place. Similarly, varroa mites have speciated and branched into different types. Studying the genetic information points to varroa mites being associated with different bee types long enough to co-evolve. In other words, bees in India are different from bees in Sumatra and the varroa mites on them are also different, suggesting that these populations have been separate for a very long time but also that the bees and their mites have been together for a very long time as well. On the other hand, European bees have acquired varroa mites only recently and therefore they have had the devastating effect of an invasive pest. As an example, the rate of mutation and time of separation of just the Korean and Japanese lineages of Varroa destructor has been estimated. The time of coexistence of varroa mites and honey bees is no doubt far longer. > Considering that mutations within each type have occurred in the past 50 years, and that the two types have different alleles at many loci, our data allow estimation of the divergence time of the two types. For a large set of parameters, estimates fall in an interval of 5000–15000 years. -- from "The invasive Korea and Japan types of Varroa destructor, ectoparasitic mites of the Western honeybee (Apis mellifera), are two partly isolated clones". Proc Biol Sci. 2005 February 22; 272(1561): 411–419. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:42:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?John_Howe?= Subject: floral sources Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am giving a lecture on urban beekeeping as practiced in New York City. Does anyone have or know of a list of floral sources for honeybees in NYC? I know many, but I'm sure there are a lot more. Thanks, John Howe ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 15:53:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: The problem with Apis cerana In-Reply-To: <2FECD05CC4C94EFAA3EB656AED544922@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > "PROBABLY reflects a long period of co-evolution between the mite and the > bee" The word "long" refers to evolutionary time, not human lifetime. > > >I would rate absconding behind > 1. Vj. not able to reproduce in worker cells > 2. V.J removal from cells. In fact cerana leaves a pin hole in its cells > until the last possible time which is believed so cerana can detect and > remove V.j > 3. very short postcapping time as compared to mellifera > 4. absconding (could be no. 3 but I still would say 4.) Bob, good points, but let me add my two bits worth: The literature indicates to me that varroa avoids laying eggs in worker cells because of #2, as opposed to inability to reproduce. You also left out grooming, which allows them to clean up the colony during periods of broodlessness. Also, the thickening of infested drone cell cappings, so that multiply-parasitized drones can't emerge, thus sealing the mites in a tomb. All traits for which we should be selecting in Apis mellifera! Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 07:44:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: The problem with Apis cerana In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Re: How Apis cerana coexists with Varroa >From what I gather, there isn't really one thing or another that cerana does; it is a suite of behaviors that cerana AND varroa perform so that one doesn't wipe the other out. It is a classic parasite relationship which has the hallmarks of living together for a very long time. Perhaps our bees could develop such a relationship as well, given a few eons. But we aren't planning to wait around; that is what animal husbandry is all about -- making things happen. As to why varroa wasn't noticed until 1904, beekeeping in Asia was just beginning to be modernized at that time. Varroa had never really been a problem for Asian beekeepers, and beekeeping had been fairly primitive in any case, consisting of various styles of frameless hives. They had mainly to deal with somewhat more serious pests such as "spiders, ants, snakes, birds, bats, and foxes" (see ref). Chinese beekeepers did not realize that the queen was female until 1760. Until the 20th century, a typical Chinese beekeeper had ten hives and got an average of ten pounds of honey per year from each. The native bee, Apis cerana, was traditionally thought to consist of only three types: A. c. cerana, A. c. japonica, and A. c. indica. By now, at least 8 sub-species of A. cerana have been identified and several other species of Asian bee have been distinguished (A. koschevnikovi, A. nigrocincta, A. andreniformis). The varroa mite was observed in China in the 1930s but the primary bee was Apis cerana at the time and it was not considered harmful to that bee. From 1928 to 1932, China imported 300,000 colonies of Italian bees from Japan. This was not an immediate success, however, as they established apiaries in and around cities where there wasn't adequate forage and soon had huge problems with brood diseases. Beekeeping shifted to Western honey bees in the fifties, and went from 500,000 hives in 1949 to 2,000,000 by 1959. Then, varroa became an very serious problem. In the 1960s, tropilaelaps followed and from then on, bee hives had both mites to contend with. My source claims mites were brought under control in the 1970s, using a variety of chemicals. China's use of harmful chemicals in food products is widely known. ref: "Apiculture in China" Beijing, 1993 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:06:11 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Martin Braunstein Subject: Re: Trade of Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi James Fischer, =20 Thanks for joining this debate. I was surprised it took you so long to = come aboard! In order to be fair, I prefer to see first the glass half = full, so I must acknowledge that: =20 I fully agree with port-of-entry inspections that work in Australia, New = Zealand and.in Argentina, of course! And I also agree that some level of = inspection and pests screening is essential. This is what the O.I.E. = recommends and what member countries should do, but it is certainly not = the fault of the O.I.E. neither of the WTO that the US fails to = accomplish these inspections. =20 However, regarding your comment below: >Certainly Martin cannot deny the USA the same level of concern that his = own country has about invasive >exotic diseases and pests, can he? = Argentina has done actual surveys to support their contention that they = >are free of Small Hive Beetle and the Tropilaelaps mite, and they have = set up a national vet authority to >comply with WTO rules, so they are = interested enough in blocking imports to declare themselves "pest free" = >for both those pests. (Pity about the AHB, though. Hope you can = somehow still keep from finding them in the >province of Buenos Aires.) I am more than glad to refute your statement. Not only myself but other = local queen breeders as well, enjoy the benefits of importing genetic = stock to improve our different strains and hybrids. We need different = strains, unavailable in Argentina, to ensure the breeding of true = hybrids and to obtain other strains for suitable crossings. Last year for example, I had a rough time trying to import very valuable = stock from the US, raised by Dr. Steve Sheppard at Washington State = University, so we could set up a cooperative agreement basically focused = at crossing his Italian strains with our Italian drones. Nevertheless, = both APHIS, the Washington State Dept. of Agriculture plus several other = bureaucrats, made almost impossible this task, because nobody was = willing to sign an export health certificate according to O.I.E. = guidelines. So how come you suggest we want to block the import of live = bees? The US itself jeopardizes its own bee exports! My help is not = necessary! Before enacting our own bee import legislation, which indeed pretends to = avoid the introduction of exotic diseases as well undesirable bee = species, it was submitted to the WTO-SPS Committee so all member = countries could challenge it for a period of 60 days. Thus I am happy to = say that in Argentina, we can import honeybees, given the proper = certification of absence of diseases in the exporting country, region or = compartment. The O.I.E. Terrestrial Code and its specific chapters provide clear = guidelines to certify an export shipment of bees. By the way, under the = O.I.E. epidemiological directives, a country can declare the total = extent of its territory, a region or a compartment as free of a certain = disease or diseases. Nevertheless, this declaration must be based on = epidemiological principles as well as qualitative and quantitative risk = estimates. Regarding your concern about Africanized Honey Bees (AHB) in Buenos = Aires province where I live, it is evident that your library is either a = bit outdated or that you quit your subscription to some scientific bee = journals long ago, didn`t you? Have you read the Journal of Apicultural = Research 46(3): 191-194 (2007). It refers to a paper published on August = 2007, entitled =ABAssessment of the mitochondrial origin of honey bees = from Argentina=BB. Well, I will save you a =A350 subscription and send = this paper to you for free under separate cover. =20 I know how much you enjoy to read peer-reviewed papers so, before you = get the PDF file by e-mail, I wish to say that the province of Buenos = Aires holds now approximately 2.5 million beehives from an estimated 3.5 = million beehives in Argentina. This represents not only 71% of the total = colony count in my country, but it also represents the largest sanctuary = and reservoir of European honey bees in the southern hemisphere. =20 =20 Please consider that Australia has about 600,000 hives, New Zealand = 330,000 and Chile about 500,000 colonies. You cannot imagine (maybe if = you try hard you could) the treasure of genetic diversity we have in = Argentina. If you do not trust me, please ask Dr. Marla Spivak = (University of Minnesota) who`s been here two weeks ago or Dr. Steve = Sheppard, who wrote several papers about the honeybees of Argentina, or = Dr. Al Dietz who was the first scientist to do some taxonomical bee work = here before PCR become popular. =20 For this recent mitochondrial assessment, 300 samples out of 150 = apiaries from all across the province of Buenos Aires were taken for lab = determination. The samples were analyzed through PCR to obtain the = different haplotypes. Although we knew beforehand that some AHB would = show up, we were happy to confirm results demonstrating that less than = 3% of the samples were actually =ABA=BB haplotypes matching Subsaharan = African haplotypes. We had some =ABM=BB haplotypes matching black Apis = mellifera mellifera and a few intermissa, while the remaining 95% were = all =ABC=BB haplotypes matching eastern European honeybees.=20 =20 I am not aware of any other federal state anywhere in the world = performing such extensive test. On the other hand, California which has = some 700,000 permanent hives suffers a higher incidence of AHB, but it = is still allowed to ship bees to the entire US and Canada as well. By = the way Texas, which is home of several reputable queen breeders is = fairly invaded by AHB and they still supply their queens to plenty of = customers all across the US. So Jim, instead of looking at the speck of = sawdust in Buenos Aires, you should look at your plank in the US. Don`t = feel pity for our tiny AHB outbreaks, feel pity for yourself!=20 Another of your comments deserves a rebuttal: >Martin is simply unaware of the actual history. There were quite a few = imports >of bees" into the USA between 1992 and 2005, but there were = multiple factors >behind them: Needless to say, the odds of swarms being = delivered along with >the goods were rather high. (The odds were good = that the goods were odd!) Come on Jim! Your detail of events does not prove anything and you know = that. You are a man of hard data and facts, how come you surprise us now = with odds, probabilities and beliefs? Did you ask a palm reader to = obtain this information? Did you become a believer now for the first = time? I can imagine with some degree of likelihood, a swarm of Apis cerana or = Apis dorsata (attached to an oceanfreight container) making it = successfully from Indonesia or Thailand to Brisbane or Sidney. But = unless, these are ninja bees able to produce heat resistant super wax = and collect several pounds of honey in their stomachs, I cannot think of = a fair chance of survival for any such Asian swarm to any US port, = especially after passing through the Equator, and after enduring the = melting of the comb in the middle of either the Atlantic or Pacific = ocean, in a transit time of at least 16 days. Package bee exporters know how hard, difficult and expensive it is to = make a successful airfreight exportation of package bees, and to have = them arrive in good shape to its final destination. I cannot imagine = how a fugitive and clandestine swarm might even survive two weeks across = the ocean unfed and unsheltered, can you? However, given your thorough and impressive knowledge of swarms sea = freight transportation, I do not deny the possibility that you have = devised a successful method to ship package bees by ocean freight. Your = contribution will be greatly appreciated, by the many silly package bee = shippers who spend thousands of dollars exporting their bees by = expensive airfreight carriers. On the other hand, trucks and trains connecting the US with Mexico and = Canada, could not have been a reasonable vector for bee diseases from = these two countries into the US either. Varroa showed up in Mexico = during 1992, five years after it was first detected in the US (during = 1987) at both Wisconsin and Florida. Therefore it is possible to = consider that either the US transmitted Varroa mites to Mexico and = Canada rather than the opposite. Eventually there may be independent = events of introduction at each of these three NAFTA countries, unrelated = to each other. The same applies to tracheal mites and the Canadian situation. It is = possible that US swarms, packages and queens were unfortunately = responsible for the spread of tracheal mites in Canada. But the US got = tracheal mites in 1984 before the Canadian`s did. Why do you want to = convince this fine audience here in Bee-L that the opposite is true.? = How can a healthy organism transmit a disease which it is not present in = its body? Have you ever heard of the Koch postulates which are the basis = of modern bacteriology? Another of your comments: >The Canadian border closure of 1987. What resulted was Canada = buying >bees from overseas, yet bees still were allowed to be sold in = queen and >package form to the USA with nothing more than a cursory = level of >paperwork. You are quite right! After the border closure, the Canadians were indeed = able to import bees. And I assume that some of those bees, may have been = eventually (legally or illegally) transhipped to the US. But the = Canadian got their bees from New Zealand and Australia, both countries = were free (at that time) of both Varroa and tracheal mites. I am not = aware of another supplier of live bees to Canada during that period. Do = you have another information? I want to remind you that the Kiwis got Varroa in April 2000, but they = are still free of tracheal mites as well as the Australian who still = lack both mites. So your statement is again unsubstantiated, because = none of the Canadian bee imports (even if transhipped to US customers), = could vector any new disease or pest not already present in the US = during the period 1987-2005. Although last year I stayed one month benchmarking myself against the = best Australian and New Zealand queen breeders, I do not know much about = Apis cerana. However, I wish the Australians much luck to keep it under = control because I would not want to have these undesirable bees to = coexist with commercial beekeepers making a living with European = honeybees. Happy Janukah! Martin Braunstein - www.malkaqueens.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 14:13:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Co-evolution of bees and mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob asked for fossil proof of varroa mite and bees cohabited for millions of years. We don't have that, of course, but in the genes of various creatures is the equivalent of a fossil record of how long they have been around and to which other species they may be related. Differences in species and differences in types within species are reflected by differences in the genetic makeup. Comparing these differences allows us to estimate the age of various similar species and speculate on when they may have arisen from a common ancestor. For example, it is assumed that the various honey bee species arose from a common ancestor, which no longer exists. It may have been a tropical bee in Africa which spread to other parts of the world. Not only are there now other species in Europe and Asia but these species are separated out into types (also known as races). Using the molecular clock, estimates can be made as to how many thousands or millions of years have elapsed for these changes to take place. Similarly, varroa mites have speciated and branched into different types. Studying the genetic information points to varroa mites being associated with different bee types long enough to co-evolve. In other words, bees in India are different from bees in Sumatra and the varroa mites on them are also different, suggesting that these populations have been separate for a very long time but also that the bees and their mites have been together for a very long time as well. On the other hand, European bees have acquired varroa mites only recently and therefore they have had the devastating effect of an invasive pest. As an example, the rate of mutation and time of separation of just the Korean and Japanese lineages of Varroa destructor has been estimated. The time of coexistence of varroa mites and honey bees is no doubt far longer. > Considering that mutations within each type have occurred in the past 50 years, and that the two types have different alleles at many loci, our data allow estimation of the divergence time of the two types. For a large set of parameters, estimates fall in an interval of 500015000 years. -- from "The invasive Korea and Japan types of Varroa destructor, ectoparasitic mites of the Western honeybee (Apis mellifera), are two partly isolated clones". Proc Biol Sci. 2005 February 22; 272(1561): 411419. * * * The Thai-Malay region is unique in that it is the only place where large populations of the two major mitochondrial lineages of A. cerana the Mainland and Sundaland lineages naturally come into contact. It is also the only place where native strains of both V. destructor and V. jacobsoni have been shown to occur. "Genetic subpopulations of Varroa mites and their Apis cerana hosts in Thailand" Apidologie 37 (2006) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 06:42:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Trade of Bees In-Reply-To: <002401c964f6$db8b4640$c56233aa@useraca880810b> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >I want to remind you that the Kiwis got Varroa in April 2000, but they are > still free of tracheal mites as well as the Australian who still lack both > mites. So your statement is again unsubstantiated, because none of the > Canadian bee imports (even if transhipped to US customers), could vector any > new disease or pest not already present in the US during the period > 1987-2005. Martin, you place me in the odd position of defending statements made by my friend Jim Fischer : ) However, your above statement implies that you are unaware that new parasites have arrived in the U.S. during the above approximate time period: Nosema ceranae, Varroa Destructor Virus-1, perhaps IAPV, and who knows what else. I am not saying that these parasites came from Canada. We do not know where these parasites came from. However, N ceranae in the US is apparently a European haplotype, VDV-1 was widespread in Europe, and some strains of IAPV were from Australia. So there is certainly the possibility that those novel parasites arrived via imports to Canada. Martin, I commend the genetic diversity of your Argentinian bees. Indeed, I would personally like to legally import Argentinian breeder queens or semen that had gone through careful inspection and quarantine on a bee-by-bee basis. Randy Oliver At the beginning of a new season, as the days begin to lengthen. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:44:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Co-evolution of bees and mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >> "PROBABLY reflects a long period of co-evolution between the mite and the bee" I know this has been brought up before, but the scientific world likes to use words like "the data, indicate, probable, etc". This does not indicate a particular uncertainty but a way of thinking where everything is tentative and open to revision. Unlike some thinking which regards the Truth as a done deal, writ in stone. Science refers to "a proof", not "the proof". Here's a fine example: > Although the currently favored hypothesis is that the polydnaviruses are at least largely viral in origin, their unusual life "cycle" has led to the suggestion that the polydnaviruses may not be viruses at all but instead are an ingeniously engineered way for a wasp to manipulate its host. He uses the following wiggle words: "currently favored hypothesis, at least largely, suggestion, may not be, a way for, etc." all in one sentence! Our author declines to say "I'm right and all those other wannabees better check their brains at the door". Here is the term "probable long association" used in its usual context. They have the fossils, too, by the way. > Preliminary evidence has been presented that the association between braconids and their viruses extends back in time at least as far as the initial divergence of the microgastroid complex of subfamilies (at least 60 mya based on fossils assignable to extant microgastroid genera collected from Eocene and Oligocene deposits). Given this probable long association between the wasps and viruses, it is not surprising that together they have evolved a rich variety of interactions with their caterpillar hosts. -- "Molecular and Morphological Data Suggest a Single Origin of the Polydnaviruses among Braconid Wasps" Journal Naturwissenschaften ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:32:22 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Martin Braunstein Subject: New parasites or better detection technology? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Randy With reference to your recent post: >However, your above statement implies that you are unaware that new >parasites have arrived in the U.S. during the above approximate time >period: Nosema ceranae, Varroa Destructor Virus-1, perhaps IAPV, and who >knows what else. ------------------------------ I was maybe the only commercial beekeeper, attending the recent (http://www.oie-freiburg.de/) organized by the World Animal Health Organization in Freiburg (Germany) between August 26 and 28, 2008. I was surrounded by scientists, researchers, government officers as Dr. Colin Stewart from APHIS and very happy to interact with people like Drs. Jeff Pettis, Judy Chen, Ingemar Fries, Elke Genersch, Wolfgang Ritter, Denis Anderson, Michael Hornitzky and many other nice folks from all over the world. I was also present at the National Beekeeping Conference held in Sacramento (California), earlier this year. I saw you from a distance, but you were very busy signing autographs so you could not shake my hand :-) As you see, I am not only aware but also very concerned about parasites, virus and diseases. I am also aware about some very serious issues, but I still do not dare to write about them. Maybe writing about them, would be very original for a nice bee journal article, but detrimental in the long term for the good image of beekeeping products eaten by consumers. Regarding the supposedly new parasites and diseases of your list, I am afraid that they have been present in the US and in the whole American Continent, for a very long period of time. However, I feel like it is just now that laboratories have the right PCR techniques, the primers and the trained personnel to identify them so they seem to be new. With a mistaken rationale, someone might also say that Varroa destructor is a new parasite recently introduced into the US. However, we all know that it was thanks to Dr. Denis Anderson that two different haplotypes of Varroa were identified in year 2000. Thanks to Denis, we also know that Varroa jacobsoni was a wrong denomination. Something similar could be applied to Nosema ceranae, again thanks to Dr. Ingemar Fries we know that the spores of this Asian version have been present in Europe but erroneously regarded as a single Nosema strain. What makes you think the new bugs of your list have just entered into the US? How can you prove they entered through recent imports, trade, smuggling or whatever? Maybe they have been present for decades. Dr. Jay Evans put this clear when he showed that IAPV was present in the US at least since year 2002, prior to the first Australian imports of package bees in year 2005. How can you explain the presence of the Nosema ceranae in Australia? I think the last imports of US bees into Australia were in 1982, so maybe it was through US bees that they got it. I know this is pure speculation but I find hard to understand the presence of Nosema ceranae in Australia given its ideal quarantine situation. I am afraid that unless, samples of frozen bees have been kept from long ago, we are very limited to determine the real time of introduction of seemingly new parasites, which may be really old in their introduction , but only recently identified as new thanks to modern lab techniques. Hope you become my first American customer! All the best, Martin Braunstein www.malkaqueens.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:33:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: USDA Organic Draft Rule Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.cornucopia.org/2008/12/last-minute-rulemaking-by-bush-usda-threatens-organic- farmers/ Classifying bees and fish as livestock will likely garner positive and negative response from that industry sector depending on its perceived present and future regulatory impact. So what would the ramifications of this be if adopted? I assume some specifics concerning bees and fish certification would be written later? ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:48:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Trade of Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin said: > I cannot imagine how a fugitive and clandestine swarm might even > survive two weeks across the ocean unfed and unsheltered, can you? I would not agree with either of the assumptions you made. First, two weeks is a very long time for transit in the heavily trafficked runs between Asia and the US. Two weeks might be a reasonable time for surface freight between Asia and Buenos Aires, but crossing the equator when crossing either the Atlantic or Pacific implies dealing with two opposing sets of trade winds and currents. Second, the swarm need not be without resources. One can expect that containers, left unsealed at or near their inland loading points until they are ready to ship, to become home to swarms that establish themselves and build up stores. This is exactly what happened with the AHB swarm that was transported by rail from Texas to Virginia in the 1990s, as it was proven that the freight car spent nearly a month being shuffled from one place to the next between Texas and VA. > And I also agree that some level of inspection and pests > screening is essential. This is what the O.I.E. recommends > and what member countries should do, but it is certainly > not the fault of the O.I.E. neither of the WTO that the > US fails to accomplish these inspections. The regulations that exist provide for only inspections done by the shipper. This "self-certification" is the most disingenuous provision of the entire SPS scheme, as it places the person with the most too gain or lose in the position of making the ultimate decision about shipping or not shipping. What I have been proposing consistently since 2002 has been port-of-entry inspections. There are many possible approaches to sampling, screening, and tracking shipments, so there would be no delay imposed on the shipments, moreso if provisions for sampling were designed into the packaging of the packages. > [I] enjoy the benefits of importing genetic stock to improve > our different strains and hybrids. Yes, but you don't allow beekeepers in Argentina to buy bees from overseas, now do you? Imports for genetics and research were made much more difficult by the WTO agreements, just ask Sue Cobey! > The US itself jeopardizes its own bee exports! The US does not really have a "bee export business" beyond what was sold to Canadian beekeepers prior to the border closure. The queen and package producers have their hands full meeting in-country demand, and don't need to export, as they can't fill the demand that exists. > Regarding your concern about Africanized Honey Bees (AHB) > in Buenos Aires province where I live, Los Angeles, CA USA (34 degrees North latitude) was completely colonized by AHB in April 1999. Buenos Aires is at 34 degrees South latitude. Both cities are at low elevations, and have thriving sea ports. As I said, I wish you luck at not finding AHB in your province. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:32:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: New parasites or better detection technology? In-Reply-To: <006601c9654e$544f7e00$371a0cba@useraca880810b> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi Martin, Although we have not yet met, I like you already! > I saw you from a distance, but you were very busy signing autographs so > you could not shake my hand :-) Was that before the kissing of babies? ;-) >As you see, I am not only aware but also very concerned about parasites= , virus and diseases. I realize that, Martin, and have the greatest respect for you. I was just messin' with you! > > >With a mistaken rationale, someone might also say that Varroa destructor > is a new parasite recently introduced into the US. What's to be mistaken? I saw varroa in my colonies for the first time in the early 90's, after inserting stickyboards each year for three years prio= r to document their arrival. They soon wiped out all but 6 of 250 colonies. Martin, it's the honest truth that there were no varroa mites of any specie= s in North America until their introduction in about 1988. > >Something similar could be applied to Nosema ceranae, again thanks to Dr= . > Ingemar Fries we know that the spores of this Asian version have been > present in Europe but erroneously regarded as a single Nosema strain. If N ceranae had been present in European bees for a long period, it would be present in all old samples (it's not), and would have been spread throughout Australia (it isn't). I recently posted photos of spores from a pure N apis sample supplied to me by Ruary Rudd in Ireland, who frequently posts to this list. The sample was taken 7 years ago, apparently before N ceranae arrived. > > >What makes you think the =ABnew=BB bugs of your list have just entered i= nto > the US? > Martin, several of these new parasites are visible to the naked eye. There was plenty of esquisitely detailed microscopic examination of North America= n honey bees prior to 1960. It is abundantly clear that tracheal mite, chalkbrood, varroa, and small hive beetle are recent imports. It is disingenuous and downright silly to suggest otherwise. > > >Hope you become my first American customer! I'd be honored! How well do your bees handle varroa, tracheal mite, chalkbrood, AFB, EFB, nosema, DWV, IAPV, VDV-1, and small hive beetle? We need a tough bee here in the States! Martin, I sincerely wish you the very best, and success in your breeding program. If I ever get the chance to visit Argentina, I will request the honor of visiting you. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 05:13:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Trade of Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 24/12/2008 01:57:21 GMT Standard Time, bee-quick@BEE-QUICK.COM writes: The US does not really have a "bee export business" A couple of years ago some were sent to Portugal from, I think, Texas, complete with SHB! Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 07:04:40 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Pattersons Curse honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 21/12/2008 17:28:26 GMT Standard Time, CSlade777@AOL.COM writes: <> I found a freshly dead drone yesterday, on a hive roof, so it wasn't one that had been thrown out. They've all been out for a poo break (yellow streaks all over the roofs) so that's presumably what it was doing when it expired. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 08:04:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Trade of Bees In-Reply-To: <004201c96569$c80d0e00$0501000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > > I cannot imagine how a fugitive and clandestine swarm might even > > survive two weeks across the ocean unfed and unsheltered, can you? > > I would not agree with either of the assumptions you made. Many years back, here in Maine in the winter, a generator, made in Brazil arrive with a colony of AHB in the shipping crate. They were alive and well even after shipment to the power plant in freezing conditions. So it has happened. Was very interesting when they opened the box. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 12:44:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Stewart Subject: Re: Trade of Bees (another worry) In-Reply-To: <004201c96569$c80d0e00$0501000a@j> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have another worry about trade as well. With the recession kicking into full drive and the shortfall of tax revenue for government agencies what do we think the impact is going to be not only on keeping out the bad things from our bees but from our food system and environment as a whole? To make sure everyone is playing by the rules (be it bees, honey, or any import for that matter) we need inspections and system, well funded, to work. If funding evaporates what happens then (I'll argue that it already has depending on what part of the government you talk to)? Regardless of the talk of doom and gloom, I do wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy Holiday. Cheers! Richard Stewart Carriage House Farm North Bend, Ohio An Ohio Century Farm Est. 1855 (513) 967-1106 http://www.carriagehousefarmllc.com rstewart@zoomtown.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 01:03:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. In-Reply-To: <003801c962ce$b4e39ad0$0501000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >whole frames of comb containing mainly drone cells, they never do so naturally, Dave, the trap frames that I use have no foundation, and close to 99 out of a hundred are drawn out in early spring as solid drone comb. > > >They are not going to politely wait for the drone > frame to be drawn out again, now are they? This is a great image, but not what I see in my colonies. When I reinsert the empty drone trap frame after cutting out the drone comb, the bees build fresh drone comb immediately, and by two days later there is already a palm to hand-sized patch of comb with eggs. This is one of the points that I make in my article on the method--that it spreads out the time interval that there are drone larvae being capped, so that the frame traps mites for more days. > > Also, as one gets further > into summer, I'd expect less and less interest in > re-drawing the cut-out drone frame, and more re-use > of wax to rework existing worker cells into drone cells. What I actually see is that later in the season the bees may build worker brood if the trap comb is near the center of the cluster. Otherwise, most fill it with honey. But a percentage of colonies maintain a mix of drone larvae/pupae and honey scattered in the frames. > > > > Seeley, in the study that you cited, found the same to be true. > >No, Seeley never removed any drone comb at all. What I said, Jim, was "I find that by giving them a place to do so, they don't build it elsewhere. Seeley, in the study that you cited, found the same to be true." I didn't say anything about removing it. > > > There is ample evidence that the presence of > > varroa at any level will suppress honey production. > > >The classic case of the best honey-producing > colonies being the ones that crash on Labor Day > tends to refute that correlation, so I'm not so > sure that varroa can be blamed for poor crops. This is an interesting point, Jim. Currie has a graph of total honey production for the season vs. mite infestation level in May. It's a negative linear correlation. However, Schmidt-Hemple points out that in general, larger colonies tend to have more parasites. The sheer size and degree of brood production allow them to outbreed the parasite. Unfortunately for bees, the mite catches up about Sept 1. >I've found that Nosema was a > bigger issue for "poor crops" than any other > disease/pest issue. I don't doubt, since nosema infection shortens forager lifespan. > > > An ancillary question that I have is just how > > critical is it to remove every round of drone > > brood produced. > > I call drone frames "varroa hand grenades". > Hold on to them too long, and they go boom. :) I too was of that opinion until I obtained empirical data from field observations. It may be a bit more complicated. For example, if the first few drone cells to be sealed are multiply infested by mites, the drones and mites may never emerge. Or it could be that the occasional removal of a drone comb is enough to disrupt the mite reproductive cycle enough to be of benefit. > > > > I found several colonies in my operation last summer that > > I had inadvertently left drone trap frames in through the > > season, without removal, other than twice in the spring. > > Those colonies did not exhibit higher mite levels than > > "control" colonies side by side. Indeed, some of them had > > extremely low mite levels, despite the presence of a drone frame! > > >This is another very unusual report. Unusual as compared to other data, or unusual compared to what you would expect? It was not what I expected, either. > > >How dry was the weather? > I might understand if all colonies had low mite levels > and the air humidity had been really dry. Drier than what you are used to on the East Coast. But not any different than our normal summer, with bees next to irrigation ditches. I wish that all colonies had low mite levels, but since I don't use synthetic miticides, and had only spot treated with Apiguard, there was ample exposure to mites. Plus I was surrounded by yards of bees from other commercial beeks easily within flight range. > > >(I'm assuming here that the drone frame was being used for > drone brood rather than for stores Correct. But in the scattered way that I mentioned above--not solid frames of brood. I've observed this phenomenon in several colonies, for two seasons now. Again, we need much more field data. I have completely given up on common sense, and now only trust actual field data. Re Allen's leaving the bees alone, I'm with you on that one. We split all to make equal nucs in early spring, then leave dang near alone for the rest of the year. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 00:04:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: vectors In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >In this article, the authors show that virus does replicate in mites In order to determine if a single stranded RNA virus is indeed replicating in varroa, researchers look for the presence of the complementary negative strand that is produced during replication. Ongus found that both DWV and Varroa Destructor Virus-1 do indeed replicate within varroa mites. However, there was another paper, quite recent, I believe, that found that DWV did not reproduce in varroa. I can't put my hand on it. Pete, can you remember? I believe that there was also a paper from New Zealand that found that some varroa were immune to DWV, and wouldn't transmit it to bees. Tough to sort this all out. But if some varroa are indeed resistant to DWV, that could be a good reason for promoting those lines of mites! Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 00:06:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Drone Brood Removal In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >Also if the drone frame is left in it will often be filled with honey. Hi Alden, I also often observe this once prime drone-rearing season is over. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 01:14:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Movement = spread of (invasive) species In-Reply-To: <2C5338EF-6517-4A7E-893F-1178B0040CC4@cornell.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >The rate of invasive finds greatly increased as the rate of > transportation. So in the era of sailing boats there were few--add in > airplanes & the rate dramatically increased. add in container ships & air > transportation &........ Hi Mike! I grew up in So. Calif. where Eucalypts were common landscape trees. They were imported from Australia as seed, and no pests were brought with them, so they were disease free in California for 150 years. However, with increased trade, Calif has gotten roughly one new Eucalypt pest each year for the past 15 years. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 21:27:02 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varro a. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >...the trap frames that I use have no foundation, and close to 99 out of a hundred are drawn out in early spring as solid drone comb. This can reliably be had in strong colonies in the 1st half of the season if one systematically culls drone cells in worker frames to below the bees' desired threshold. It's rare in ferals, where only the bees control the comb composition. In ferals, drone cell clusters are scattered around the perifery of the broodnest. Waldemar ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:18:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Drone brood removal MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank> > I found several colonies in my operation last summer that > > I had inadvertently left drone trap frames in through the > > season, without removal, other than twice in the spring. > > Those colonies did not exhibit higher mite levels than > > "control" colonies side by side. Indeed, some of them had > > extremely low mite levels, despite the presence of a drone frame! > > >This is another very unusual report. This may be a very important observation, perhaps it is only necessary = to remove a couple of cycles to get the mite level to where it is = acceptable for the rest of the season? More research here? > > Also, as one gets further > into summer, I'd expect less and less interest in > re-drawing the cut-out drone frame, and more re-use > of wax to rework existing worker cells into drone cells. Removing the frames all season it amazes me how late they still wish to = have drones, most to late August. That's quite a few cycles of removal = when one starts in April. (that's OK with me though, a good market = available). Suggest anyone doing this look up the Asian Community, it's = a delicacy. I try to get all my drone frames to the outer wall at = seasons end so thy are not to inclined to start raising drones before I = can get to the hives in spring. They get moved in a couple of places on = first visit. Alden Marshall Hudson, NH ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:53:47 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: a e Subject: holidays In-Reply-To: <8c0381120812240504m4421ca71kf16d9006e56d1c4c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Happy holidays to everyone. Sincerely, Abbas ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:36:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varro a. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > This can reliably be had in strong colonies in the 1st half of the season > if >one systematically culls drone cells in worker frames to below the > bees' >desired threshold. * It's rare in ferals, where only the bees > control the >comb composition. In ferals, drone cell clusters are > scattered around the >perifery of the broodnest.* This is likely due to the fact that as the colony grows, in number and size, the desire for more drones does also, which may not be a truly linear event. In many cases they have the luxury of placing comb where they desire which of course is not a hive situation. Alden Marshall ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 10:59:05 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10812240103refc1b7ev492e1ff1b0f6a508@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Randy > Dave, the trap frames that I use have no foundation, and close to 99 out of > a hundred are drawn out in early spring as solid drone comb. I am not concerned about the drawing of empty frames or trap frames which are easily demonstrated to contain whole sheets of drone cells, what I am saying that under circumstances where one is not introducing such frames or spaces, the bees will never build more than large palm sized patches of drone cells. > This is a great image, but not what I see in my colonies. When I reinsert > the empty drone trap frame after cutting out the drone comb, the bees build > fresh drone comb immediately, and by two days later there is already a palm > to hand-sized patch of comb with eggs. It is possible for a Langstroth frame to be built out in about one hour from a pencil thickness bead of wax, (an experiment that was reported on BEE-L some years ago) the maximum work rate of bees is phenomenal, yet hardly ever witnessed or indeed achieved. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 05:04:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: holidays In-Reply-To: <902432.2928.qm@web50501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Today we celebrate the birthday of Lorenzo Langstroth, Born on Christmas Day, 1810, in Pennsylvania. Merry Christmas! Joe ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 07:03:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bman140 Subject: Re: holidays In-Reply-To: <902432.2928.qm@web50501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MERRY CHRISTMAS to all and to all a good day all year long. HAPPY NEW YEAR to everyone every day. Hope everyone has a blessed day and above all "BEE SAFE". Ed ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:36:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: holidays In-Reply-To: <434767.78134.qm@web57708.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Happy Holidays to all. Dick Marron ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 13:09:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: MRH Subject: Re: holidays In-Reply-To: <38021.31111.qm@web56406.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Today is his 198th, which means that in two years we will celebrate his bicentennial. It's not too early to start planning for a year of events. marc hoffman On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 8:04 AM, J. Waggle wrote: > Today we celebrate the birthday of Lorenzo Langstroth, > Born on Christmas Day, 1810, in Pennsylvania. > > Merry Christmas! > Joe > > > > > ******************************************************* > * Search the BEE-L archives at: * > * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * > ******************************************************* > ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 21:20:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: holidays Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We know it must be Xmas when Jim and Randy are signing from the same hymnal. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 15:10:48 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Martin Braunstein Subject: Small Hive Beetle in Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The World Animal Health Organization released today its follow-up report = N=BA 1, based on the information provided by the Canadian Food = Inspection Agency, regarding the expansion of SHB in Quebec. The full = report can be accessed at: http://www.oie.int/wahis/public.php?page=3Dsingle_report&pop=3D1&reportid= =3D7571 By the way, the first report can be found = http://www.oie.int/wahis/public.php?page=3Dsingle_report&pop=3D1&reportid= =3D7393. This report details the extent of the first five SHB outbreaks = in Quebec It is interesting to note that Aethina tumida specimens found in Quebec = match haplotype US2 found previously in the USA and are different from = specimens found in Alberta in 2006 (which were similar to Australian = isolates). 1) Is anyone on this list aware about all SHB haplotypes found in the = USA and how they correlate to both Australian and South African SHB?=20 2) Does somebody know about the haplotypes present in crosses between = Australian SHB and American SHB? Sincerely Martin Braunstein www.malkaqueens.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 09:30:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. In-Reply-To: <49536779.6050808@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >It is possible for a Langstroth frame to be built out in about one hour > from a pencil thickness bead of wax Wow! The rate at which a strong colony can build comb astonishes me! Dave, I'm trying to get a feel for the value of drone trap frames. The one property of them that stands out to me is that they can be used to "manage" where the bees place drone comb in the colony, by giving them a place to build it. It may be that a partial frame of drone brood, as in my trap frames, may satisfy the colony's desire to build drone comb and raise drones, thus eliminating most volunteer drone brood elsewhere. It may also be, as Alden and I discussed, that we might be able to strongly affect varroa buildup with only one or two removals of the patch of drone brood at an appropriate time. The question would be to determine the best time. I know that the first round of drone brood in my colonies (after winter oxalic dribble) contain almost zero mites, so removal at that time would only waste colony resources. This is also the generation of drones that mate with my raised queens. It may be appropriate to simply monitor the drone brood during normal colony inspections with a fork (although this method as an indicator of mite population in the colony has been shown to be unreliable), and to cut out the drone brood when you see a significant mite infestation. The question would be: Under what circumstances does the benefit of removing the mites in a frame of drone brood outweight the cost for the bees to replace it? I solicit any feedback from anyone who has field experience with this, either on or off list. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:00:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: holidays In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >We know it must be Xmas when Jim and Randy are singing from the same > hymnal. Thanks, Brian, One of my deepest regrets is that I may have posted words that caused any animosity between myself and any others on the list, Jim included. I would like to start the new year with an apology to any that I have ever offended. My posts are often sent out in a rush between bee work, or late at night. My sense of humor and wordplay has sometimes been misinterpreted. In retrospect, I would have pulled or rewritten many of my posts. For an Informed Discussion to truly be a "discussion," a certain degree of civility, courtesy, and trust is necessary and appropriate. I hope that in the new year that I can do a better job at politely debating issues, and disagreeing on points, without offending. In the specific case of Jim, I have the greatest admiration for his intellect, knowledge, logic, and writing skills, and hope to better engage in friendly discussion of issues. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 07:19:25 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle in Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin wrote > It is interesting to note that Aethina tumida specimens found in Quebec > match haplotype US2 found previously in the USA and are different from > specimens > found in Alberta in 2006 (which were similar to Australian isolates). It was interesting at the time that the haplotype was only similar to the Australian type. It was not the same. > 1) Is anyone on this list aware about all SHB haplotypes found in the USA > and how they correlate to both Australian and South African SHB? When it was first found in Australia it was determined to be the Durban strain which is different from the two types in the USA. I cannot remember where the USA types fit within South Africa. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 14:03:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sent to me off list--perhaps I was unclear: > > Correct me if I'm wrong but it is my understanding that if Mites reach a > certain threshold it doesn't matter what a Beekeeper does the colony will > crash, if I'm right then early prevention > would be of more value to me as I would save the colony but only loose > maybe a couple frames of Honey. > I agree! My question is not whether drone trapping is effective--there is plenty of data to support that it is. The question is what is the best timing to remove it, and how many times? Removing it if it doesn't contain enough mites would be a waste, and would have little effect on the eventual mite population. Not removing it at a critical time might actually increase varroa levels. We need more data to fine tune the method! Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 20:32:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > resources. This is also the generation of drones that mate with my raised > queens. > Perhaps a bit of cautions is due here, the satisfactory number of drones for the colony must not be reached before attempting to remove drone brood for trapping or drone incentive may have been satisfied with little to remove. I would think perhaps safest to remove until needing drones for mating? Probably some experimenting necessary. Alden Marshall ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 18:51:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. In-Reply-To: <07F66DDA0177485D868773B27D013C16@BLINE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > >I would think perhaps safest to remove until needing drones for mating? > Probably some experimenting necessary. In Calif, we mate queens right after almonds, as soon as the first drones are mature. So the first round is the most important for either mating, or removal from the drone pool. However, since I only breed from colonies that maintain low mite levels, leaving the drone brood in my drone mother colonies does not appear to be a problem. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:14:19 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been following the drone trapping method with interest. Having read what Randy wrote on his website, I see by the photo that he had one frame in a hive but did mention maybe two. Looking at Seely's paper I see that he used four (4) in the brood chambers and then in one lot had drone comb above the excluder as well. He noted decreased honey production compared to those which did not have drone comb. Looking at it from afar, I would have thought that four was too many. One as per the photo of Randy's seemed to me to be a reasonable compromise. What was the reason for introducing drone comb above the excluder by Seely? I would have thought that this would have no effect on varroa as there was no brood. I also know some who have used drone comb in honey supers above an excluder citing that each frame would hold more honey as the cells were bigger and there were less walls so a greater volume available to store honey. There did not seem to be a reluctance by the bees to store honey in the drone combs compared to worker cells above the excluder. I use a drone comb, complete, in the middle of a brood chamber for drone production in our queen rearing operation. I have not done a study to find out if these produce less honey than one without the full drone comb. Maybe something for the future. Randy mentions that in the first round of drone brood there are not a lot of varroa probably because of the oxalic treatment. He says in one of his posts on Bee-L "Removing it if it doesn't contain enough mites would be a waste, and would have little effect on the eventual mite population." I would have thought that reducing the varroa population, even by a small amount, would decrease the numbers thus reducing the varroa population at a later stage. Wouldn't it be a trebling or quadrupling effect as the varroa bred (depending on how many survive) so starting from a lower base would mean less in many months time? I might have the maths a little wrong here but surely it is not a linear increase? Just thoughts that come to mind and no doubt I stand corrected if I am wrong. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:44:40 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10812260930j1039021ch2b0709b65a5ad86a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Randy > Wow! The rate at which a strong colony can build comb astonishes me! It is not just the 'strength' in terms of numbers, there are occasions when desire becomes more urgent in the the bees, not that I have any clues as to why. > Dave, I'm trying to get a feel for the value of drone trap frames. I see them as a convenient means of helping reduce varroa numbers in those colonies that I do not wish to have drones 'contaminating' my breeding pool. > The one property of them that stands out to me is that they can be used > to "manage" where the bees place drone comb in the colony, by giving > them a place to build it. Yes, but by artificially creating drone comb in a location of beekeeper choice, you destroy the order that the bees create for themselves, the pattern of drone comb that occur naturally, may not appear 'ordered' to a beekeeper's eye, but the bees must have good reason for the randomness. > The question would be: Under what circumstances does the benefit of > removing the mites in a frame of drone brood outweight the cost for the bees > to replace it? That will depend on your management reasons, the timing will vary quite a lot due to race... You are looking for early drones, I am looking for very late drones. It is not a simple arithmetic relationship, a large percentage of the energy and resources put in by the workers in raising drones is over and above normal and to a degree self compensates (I have no numbers though). -- Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 07:38:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Coke and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081223091308.htm This has been around for a while so surprised Peter did not post it. Next headlines across the nation- "DEA raids bee hives." Bottom line- they may die from CCD but they will be happy. Good to know this kind of research is going on instead of wasting it on CCD. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 09:08:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Coke and bees In-Reply-To: <8c0381120812270438l35d81490s206bd40327397e8e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Bottom line- they may die from CCD but they will be happy. > > Good to know this kind of research is going on instead of > wasting it on CCD. Sometimes, I have great difficulty understanding the occasional attempt to mitigate the value of good bee research, especially on this bee list which is promoted -above all, as an informed discussion list. We do not know now, nor would it be advised to assume worthless, the importance any bee research might have towards beekeeping now, or in the future. IMO, All bee research on the honeybee should be praised and encouraged, for it may add to our knowledge of the bee. ,,,Perhaps a reason why others, have 'so far' not attempted to mitigate the worth of the study. “We do know allot about honeybees. From all the things that we do know, one of the things that we do know, is that we do not know, all there is to know about honeybees.” (JW, 2006) Best Wishes, Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 10:11:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. In-Reply-To: <006501c967fb$1fed7e00$8894de79@user96c8c0908f> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >Looking at Seely's paper I see that he used four (4) in the brood chambers > and then in one lot had drone comb above the excluder as well. In the US, unlike in Australia, most beeks use a double deep brood chamber, and *then* maybe an excluder under the honey supers. >I would have thought that reducing the varroa population, even by a small amount, would decrease the numbers thus reducing the varroa population at a later stage. That would make perfect sense! Unfortunately, beekeeping reality doesn't necessarily follow perfect sense. In reality, the mites make up for the loss of the initial population with increased reproduction, apparently due to decreased competition. That's why I made the point that there is likely an optimum "time" (mite level?) to perform drone brood removal. Glad to see that some of you Aussies are paying attention, Trevor! :-) Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:26:52 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy replied >> >Looking at Seely's paper I see that he used four (4) in the brood >> >chambers >> and then in one lot had drone comb above the excluder as well. > > > In the US, unlike in Australia, most beeks use a double deep brood > chamber, > and *then* maybe an excluder under the honey supers. I understand this but why did Seely use four combs and not say one as in your case or two as in Nick Calderone's case? Was it a case of more is better? > That's why I made the point that there is likely an optimum "time" (mite > level?) to perform drone brood removal. In my case when I put in the drone comb in July to start rearing drones for our queen rearing operation, I find that the queen does not normally lay eggs in the other small patches of drone brood in the corners of frames. She will lay up the inserted comb but not these other areas. Is it a case that when you insert your drone comb, these other drone areas are not being laid hence there is a slower build up of varroa. It is not until these other areas of drones start producing varroa that it then becomes worthwhile to take out your drone comb? I noted in Calderone's work, referenced from your website, that he recommends freezing the drone comb and then giving back to the hive. He says this feeding on the dead drone larvae may allow the colony to recoup much of its investment in the drone brood. If this is the case, then it would help those who have posted and talk about loss of stores, nectar and pollen, that were used to rear the drones that were cut out and destroyed. > Glad to see that some of you Aussies are paying attention, Trevor! :-) Well they tell us it is not if but when. So like the boy scouts, be prepared. Best to glean as much from those at the frontline so I am ready for the attack. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:37:13 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Geoff Manning Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "randy oliver" > Glad to see that some of you Aussies are paying attention, Trevor! :-) and Trevor said > Well they tell us it is not if but when. So like the boy scouts, be > prepared. Best to glean as much from those at the frontline so I am ready > for the attack. Yep, we are paying attention, as well as quite a few dollars. The trouble is that in the last few years we have managed to get three unwanted organisms (EFB, chalkbrood and small hive beetle). So there is a concern about the scout masters. A little while ago I was quoted in my local daily as saying we didn't have a lot of faith in the ability of the quarantine system to keep varroa out. A apiary officer was quoted as saying much the same. However, I was the one singled out in a letter to the editor by a quarantine official, as not having a clue, or words to that effect. A few weeks later the equine influenza outbreak occurred, something that was at the time, akin to the sub prime fiasco. I would have thought horses were a trifle larger than either bees or varroa. Trevor has alluded to the fact, that over much of Oz there are drones being laid nearly all year. He said he was putting in his first drone comb in July, middle of our winter. Geoff Manning ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:16:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Top bar and new colony - a mystery In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gas 'em out with Bee-Go?=A0=A0=A0=20 --- On Fri, 6/13/08, J. Waggle wrote: In my observations, there seems to be a window of about 3 days in which a= =20 swarm may decide for any reason to leave a void .... If I can figure a way= to cause them abscond during this=20 critical window of 3 days or so, this can be greatly beneficial to the=20 bee removal business. =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:46:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > > I noted in Calderone's work, referenced from your website, that he > recommends freezing the drone comb and then giving back to the hive. He > says this feeding on the dead drone larvae may allow the colony to recoup > much of its investment in the drone brood. If this is the case, then it > would help those who have posted and talk about loss of stores, nectar and > pollen, that were used to rear the drones that were cut out and destroyed. > Seems unless the drone comb was removed rather early there would mot be much nutrient realized, meaning more frequent visits if so. One with many hives means lugging around a bunch of frames in both to and from the freezer. And then there is freezer space required. I personally fid this a little much. Perhaps the loss in honey production is worth not having to use other mite treatments? Alden Marshall ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:01:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle in Canada Comments: cc: "Doug ((OMAFRA)) McRory" In-Reply-To: <002601c96785$4ad38fe0$78d333aa@useraca880810b> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 26-Dec-08, at 1:10 PM, Martin Braunstein wrote: > > It is interesting to note that Aethina tumida specimens found in > Quebec match haplotype US2 found previously in the USA and are > different from specimens found in Alberta in 2006 (which were > similar to Australian isolates). Hi Martin and all The 5 Quebec locations are immediately adjacent to the US border from where the report alleges the beetles originated. The Alberta infestation allegedly arrived in packages from Oz. Another incident occurred in Manitoba originating in a load of wax shipped from Texas for rendering. Except for the 20 hives in Godmanchester Quebec(3 infested) all other hives were destroyed. I live in Ontario(44N80W) several hundred km, but the Ontario boundary is only a few km from Dundee/Godmanchester area (45N74W) . While Ontario is separated from the US by the Great Lakes/St Laurence system and we have not detected small hive beetles yet, Quebec is separated from the US by a line on a map which is not continuously detectable on the ground and therefore Canadian and US hives could be almost side by side. Interprovincial movement of bees is banned without permits and associated inspections, but Ontario bees are transported to Quebec and New Brunswick for blueberry pollination. During the migration they pass through or very near the infected area. Will the inspectors be able to find and isolate infested hives before they are returned to Ontario? Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 23:02:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings I was the technician at the lab while the study was carried out, so I can answer any questions you might have about it. I thought the methodology was sound and the technique is fully worth the trouble. We used unwired beeswax foundation designed for drone combs which I wired into standard frames. The idea was to re-use them, not cut them out. We got combs built early in the year and soon built up a good supply. We used two in each brood box, same as Tom, I think. The main problem we had was in late summer, the bees slacked off raising drones, right at the time when you would want to trap as many mites as possible. Of course, if the varroa population had been curtailed early on, it might not matter. But I think for this technique to be effective it needs to be carried on throughout the summer season. What we talked about doing, and should have done, but did not do, was to feed in late summer. We even bought barrels of syrup, but held off feeding because of the expected honey flow. If we had fed, maybe the bees wouldn't have quit raising drones, and the mites could have been trapped out late in the summer, when they start to get critical (at least here, in NY state). Point is, you have to be diligent about this technique for it to work. I think the all plastic drone frames are good, too, and easy to use. As far as feeding back the drones to the bees, they eat the drones and derive food value from them. This is true. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:20:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. In-Reply-To: <001c01c96872$38fcecb0$6c72ba7c@user96c8c0908f> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >I understand this but why did Seely use four combs and not say one as in > your case or two as in Nick Calderone's case? Seeley wasn't testing drone removal as a varroa control measure. He just wanted to determine the effect of unlimited drone production in colonies. > If this is the case, then [freezing] would help those who have posted and talk about loss of stores, nectar and pollen There is virtually no pollen in those combs, and in my design, no nectar, either. Using cut-out trap frames gets around the hassle, comb swapping, and freezer space issues. I feel that it would be unwise to add yet another frame swap between colonies. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:51:04 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy wrote > There is virtually no pollen in those combs, and in my design, no nectar, > either. Using cut-out trap frames gets around the hassle, comb swapping, > and freezer space issues. I feel that it would be unwise to add yet > another > frame swap between colonies. I believe the protein comes from the eating of the brood similar to cannabilism that can occur in dearth conditions or pollen deficient flows. Not sure what percentage of the effort in raising the drone brood they would get back but it would be some percentage. The frame swap between colonies could be managed by numbering frames and returning to the same colony each time thus minimising disease. In our case, we could use our irradiation plant but whether the effort of comb swapping compared to just removing the brood is worthwhile would be judged by doing it. Hopefully in our case not for a long time. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:57:19 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote > We used two in each brood box, same as Tom, I think. According to the reference in Randy's website, it was two combs in the top brood box. I wonder how much the drone raising was curtailed by having them in the top brood box and not in the bottom one particularly when , as I have seen here in Australia, they tend to put honey in the top box of a two box brood system later in the season. > We even bought barrels of syrup, but held off feeding because of the > expected honey flow. If we had fed, maybe the bees wouldn't have quit > raising drones, and the mites could have been trapped out late in the > summer, when they start to get critical (at least here, in NY state). >From what I have read, and in my own experience, it is not the nectar (syrup in this case) that stimulates drone laying but the presence of pollen. Not sure what your pollen supply was like at the time but in my experience when rearing drones, pollen patties help in having the queen lay eggs in the drone cells but syrup will also help as long as I fed patties. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:14:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: de roeck ghislain Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote: >As far as feeding back the drones to the bees, they eat the drones and derive food value from them. This is true. Is this not a bit risky in view of diseases? Ghislain De Roeck Belgium. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:10:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >According to the reference in Randy's website, it was two combs in the top >brood box. I built those frames, so I can tell you they were in the top and bottom. Had to be, because in spring the brood boxes get reversed, sometimes a couple of times. But in any case, any time a frame got filled with honey it was replaced as soon as it was found, with an empty one. With this system, you are in there every three weeks. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:32:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>As far as feeding back the drones to the bees, they eat the drones and >derive food value from them. This is true. >Is this not a bit risky in view of diseases? This is certainly a valid question. I was brought up to believe that honey bees could clean up just about any mess. I've seen swarms clean out winter killed hives in a few days. I always thought that cleaning hideous messes without complaining was something bees do -- that we can learn from! Obviously interchanging frames between hives is one of the main ways diseases are transmitted. Many people have advocated the plan of never exchanging equipment to prevent spreading disease. To do this would be to basically give up most of the beneficial manipulations to gain a little. Since bees are predisposed to remove the hive garbage by eating it, their systems must be capable of neutralizing the infectious material to a certain extent. Also, they are always poking around in weak and diseased hives, so if there is anything around, they'll get it without our help. This is a question each must answer for themselves, to interchange or not? pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:07:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kirk_Jones?= Subject: hive beetles and early warming in southeast US Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello fellow beeks, I don't see any big issues with hive beetles as a migratory beek from Michigan to Florida. First, we leave Florida just before the hot doldrums of summer when the beetles proliferate. The summer is stressful with little good pollen and nectar. In Michigan we may see a few beetles and view them as a minor nuisance. We have modified our management program so as not to bring *any* brood in with the harvested honey. Brood without bees is a beetle magnet and breeding grounds. We just collect any brood and leave it in the beeyard until it hatches out in the fall and then bring in the combs to the warehouse. I don't see any big deal for Canadians. As I understand it, the arid central valley of Cal. may be too dry for beetles to run amok. Is this so? Maybe you could comment, Randy. I think Varroa mites are the worst threat to us, and beeks need to keep their eyes on the ball. By the way, I hear that the southeast US is warming up early and beeks better be sure to have enough stores or risk losing bees to starvation as they consume stores brooding up. The maple pollen is coming in early. It has been warm in the panhandle of Florida too, where we keep our winter operation. We have pollen coming in too. We are also putting the patties to the hives and have got two feedings of syrup around as we work the bees into the second deep that we have added. Last year one yard rich in pollen got going so good, we lost about 9 hives out of 80 after three feedings with internal feeders. Dang! I hate it when that happens. The survivors were swarming early and we had no problem getting our numbers up. It's amazing how much feed is required once the bees get brooding up. k ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:27:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >I was brought up to believe that honey > bees could clean up just about any mess. Ditto here! But we were raised before varroa, Pete. Adding varroa to the equation changes everything about disease transmission, since the bee has not yet adapted to the vectoring and stress added by this parasite. Most viruses are apparently transmitted by ingestion, and drone brood is often infected with viruses. Re frame swapping, this is something that I do with great regularity as a commercial beekeeper. However, I'd prefer not to add additional swapping of entire frames of killed brood. Trevor, the logistics of removal, boxing, transport, return, and replacement of frozen or irradiated combs are simply not cost effective at any larger scale. Re the reutilization of the protein, realize that bees wouldn't have built full frames of drone brood unless the colony was overflowing with protein in the first place. They may not even be interested in ingesting the returned killed brood (can someone with field experience comment?). I also would be concerned with the killed brood decaying during the interim between thawing and reinsertion, especially during hot summer weather. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:46:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: hive beetles and early warming in southeast US In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >As I understand it, the arid central valley of Cal. may be too dry for > beetles to run amok. Is this so? Maybe you could comment, Randy. You got it correct, Kirk! They are now endemic in the more humid areas near the San Francisco Bay. But they appear to be unable to reproduce in the dry valley and foothill areas. The beetles in imported colonies just disappear over the course of a year. > > > It's amazing how much feed is required once the bees get brooding up. Again, you hit the nail on the head! It is not uncommon for your strongest colonies to starve overnight in the almonds during full bloom. This can happen if they are not heavy with stores, and you get a few days of rain. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:07:23 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >...because in spring the brood boxes get reversed, sometimes a couple of times. Broodnest reversal achieves similar goals as checkerboarding the broodnest. Waldemar ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:21:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nathan Houck Subject: Mid Winter Respite Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The warm temperatures have given my bees a bit of a break from the sub-zero temps we've experience here in the Champlain Valley just south of Montreal. 50 deg. F today (10 C) and the bees have been out and about. Noticed a few bees flying out to relieve themselves and the undertaker bees cleaned up a bit. Good sign, because last year they didn't get a break from the temps. Nate Houck ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:21:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce Varroa. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I was brought up to believe that honey bees could clean up just about any mess. >Ditto here! But we were raised before varroa, Pete. Yeah, I know, I'm almost 60. But my thinking is, we have got to have bees that can do the routine cleanup without getting sick. Hygienic bees, in other words. Otherwise, we're just like the rest of the Ag world, stuck with livestock that have to be propped up, that couldn't stand a week in the woods. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:34:02 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/12/2008 04:04:35 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: I was the technician at the lab while the study was carried out, so I can answer any questions you might have about it. Were you intending to get queens mated? If so, how? Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:14:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Timing the interruption of the brood cycle to reduce ... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Were you intending to get queens mated? If so, how? No, this area is so saturated with bees that any attempt to control breeding would be futile. Incidentally, I would say the same thing of the Arnot Forest, which is about 8 miles from my house. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * *******************************************************