From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:05:24 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.0 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, FUZZY_AMBIEN,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE4B48781 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y6i017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:36 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0901D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 154871 Lines: 3458 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 12:08:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Bayer witch-hunt? Comments: cc: Joe Traynor , honeybeeworld@honeybeeworld.com, Bayer--Dave Fischer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, A year or so ago, after I had written a series of articles reviewing the science of varroa and its control, followed by a series on bee nutrition, bee broker Joe Traynor suggested that my next series be an investigation into the effects of neonicotinoid insecticides. I told him that due to the emotionally-charged atmosphere among some beekeepers that I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. A few months ago, despite recalcitrance on my part, Dr Jerry Bromenshenk implored me to sit in at the intial Bayer/Beekeeper working group as a beekeeper with some scientific background. Just as I feared, I had stepped into a political snakepit! Folks, there is a huge difference between a scientific investigation and a witch-hunt. Dr Bromenshenk's best slide in his presentation was a cartoon the showed the difference between inductive and deductive reasoning. In the first case, one analyzes facts to form explanatory principles; in the other you start with a premise, and then look for facts to support it. Inductive reasoning is done with an open mind; deductive reasoning is used by those who will cherry pick the data to support their preconceived biases. I have been asked to approach the pesticide issue with an open mind (as though I have ever given evidence otherwise). What I am finding is that any beekeeper or researcher who does approach the issue with an open mind is immediately labelled by some as a lackey to the chemical companies! To date, I have been totally impressed by the candor and transparency of the Bayer representatives. Not only do they bring extensive knowledge to the table, but they certainly appear to be open to constructive criticism, and to suggestions toward better testing of their products with regard to honey bees. Unfortunately, the atmosphere of cooperation envisioned by Dr Bromenshenk can be hampered by politics and irresponsible claims by beekeepers. One such claim is that Bayer Chemical Company (which would presumably be Bayer CropScience) put pressure on the publisher not to publish the book "A Spring Without Bees." This is a fairly easy claim to fact check--I called the publisher. The editor that I spoke with actually laughed at the suggestion that it could have occurred. Perhaps I didn't check with the right executive editor--with prodding, she said that she'd check around more. However, my point is that damaging claims poison the atmosphere of cooperation. In another case, a beekeeper asked the Bayer reps whether clothianidin applied at the label rate one year would be enough to cause toxicity in the crop the following year. The obvious answer was "Why would we do that?--we want the farmer to have to buy it again the next year." Duh! It turns out that the product binds tightly to the soil. I'M NOT SAYING THAT CLOTHIANIDIN IS NOT A PROBLEM--this was simply an example of how refreshing open dialog between both parties can be. Folks, what I'm asking is that if the bee industry actually wants to get to the bottom of the insecticide issues, you can't just choose a few darlings who proclaim that the Evil Axis of pesticide manufacturers have a vast conspiracy to eliminate bees from the planet. And you can't burn at the stake researchers with vast pesticide experience spanning decades (such as Bromenshenk). Nor beekeeper/researchers (such as myself) who really want to determine the facts. As Dr Bromenshenk pointed out in his slide show, the newer classes of insecticides are much "smarter," and are designed to effect fewer collateral casualties (such as to bees or other nontarget organisms). They are not perfect, and are indeed poisons. There is no question that at high doses they cause problems for bees. Bayer's responsibility is to help determine which label dosages, for which crops, and which application methods and timing will minimize or eliminate effects upon bees. To that end I feel that Bayer truly wishes to cooperate. After that point, it is up to the EPA and the states and counties to make sure that the regulations are enforced. That is not a Bayer or science issue--it is an enforcement issue outside the purvue of Working Group. Please, let's allow cool heads to prevail in this endeavor, Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 12:10:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: When a talk goes wrong MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > I still believe that > replacing mitacide contaminated comb is a good thing but I have also > learned > that mitacide contaminated comb will raise healthy bees when all other > factors are under control. Bob, I was speaking to the Calif Bee Breeders Assoc yesterday. For them, miticide contaminated comb is a major issue. Not for their production colonies, but for their cell starters and finishers, and their drone mother colonies. I place my own bees on commercial foundation each year, and they do "well." But we really don't know whether they would do better on uncontaminated comb. Recent research clearly documents the negative effects of coumaphos and fluvalinate contaminated combs on larval development. Sure the colonies may look strong, but how strong with they look without those sublethal effects? Work by Dr Diana Cox Foster and others points out that exposure to different miticides affects the levels of different viruses in the colonies. We simply do not know whether the miticides act as epigenetic triggers that affect the bee immune system, or other aspects of their biology. One little mentioned point is that we have been selecting bees for some years to become more resistant to miticides (since we only breed off of colonies that thrive in the presence of miticides). Note that commercial beekeepers have ramped up the dosages of miticides that they apply to levels that were unheard of when the miticide was first used. This is likely a problem with Aussie packages. Aussie bees have not been bred in the presence of the miticides. When they are brought here and inoculated with varroa, the mite population quickly builds. Then the beekeeper applies a miticide at a high dose that American bees can tolerate, but that may stress the "naive" Aussie bees. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 22:31:23 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: offlist Re: [BEE-L] Bayer witch-hunt? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi randy, since you are "in the room", i'd like to put a bug in your ear...an asian longhorn beetle to be exact. do you know anything about this issue? basically, the trees without active infestation will be treated with injected imidacloprid. this is expected to happen for 3-5 years running in many of these trees. many of the trees are maples. there seems to be no data on what the levels of imidacloprid are to be expected in nectar, pollen, and/or resins with these yearly treatments. it seems as if aphis is funding some work by a grad student of jeff pettis (fwiw, i was the one to approach aphis about funding such work). ...more should be done. more samples...more analysis...more hives. i don't know what the thinking is at bayer on this stuff, but it would be great to have better funding for this work. deknow ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:16:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Bayer witch hunt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FWIW, I want to express my appreciation of Randy's thoughts on the subject, as well as my whole hearted agreement with his approaches. Here on the East Coast we have more than our share of respected, large beekeepers putting all the blame on neonics, but the researchers are not and I think they deserve more support. I spent the better part of my adult life working in the corporate environment, including development of major crop pest controls, and it is beyond my comprehension that a group of individuals working for a large chemical company would conspire to (1) design studies that would deliberately hide adverse effects on beneficial insects (2) not publish adverse data (3) not listen to constructive commentary and questions from concerned parties. Sometimes people forget that the 'corporate enviroment' consists of people just like you and me, who are concerned about the environment, what they eat and drink, where their kids play, etc. Even if there were some grand whois that wanted to keep matters secret, he or she would be incapable of doing so as the hundreds of staff that contribute to a major product (such as the neonics) just will not let themselves be so manipulated. I don't know how this (CCD) will all play out, but I wish we would all give greater support to those who are dedicating a good part of their careers to solving the problem and stop condemning those who do not wholly agree with certain ignorant premises. Lloyd ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 16:12:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Burrup Subject: Re: Bayer witch-hunt? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well said Randy! In all fields there seems to be too many with preconceived ideas that will not see or listen to opposing views. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 14:26:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Hobby bee computer chip designer needs your help with votes Comments: cc: "carl@ubisonline.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, A hobbyist in my local club is a retired computer engineer who has designed a chip to monitor beehive functions. He's entered into a contest to receive funding. He needs votes in the next two days. If you want to help, Carl would greatly appreciate. His instructions (which I just followed to cast my vote): 1) Go to the webpage *http://www.mypic32.com* This is the HOME page for the contest site. The site can be very slow at times, so please be patient and let it load anyway. 2) In order to save a hassle it is best at this point if you log in at the top right side of the HOME page. You will need to 'join' if you have not joined previously to vote. Please do this to be able to vote for me. [It took 10 minutes for them to return a password to my email, so be patient] 3) The quickest way to get to my project is to go to the 'NEWS' tab where you will see a list of names. Scroll down to the name 'carl', that's me. It will take you to my project page where it explains everything about it. 4) VERY IMPORTANT: There are actually two things you need to do to vote for me. To the left of my photo in my bee suit is a button called 'Cast My Vote'. Please click this to give me your vote. (You need to be logged in to do this) Don't click on someone else's project after doing mine, because it will take the vote away from me! Second, scroll down to the bottom of the page. You will see some stars to rate the project. It's best if you give me 5 stars for each area of the rating. To the best of my knowledge, this star rating is independent of the 'cast my vote' button. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:48:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: offlist Re: [BEE-L] Bayer witch-hunt? In-Reply-To: <20090122.173123.16641.0@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > the trees without active infestation will be treated with injected > imidacloprid. this is expected to happen for 3-5 years running in many of > these trees. many of the trees are maples. there seems to be no data on > what the levels of imidacloprid are to be expected in nectar, pollen, and/or > resins with these yearly treatments. Yes, problem is that the applicators are not following the protocol. They say that it takes too long to drill all the holes and do small injections, so they just drill one big hole and blast in an excessive amount of pesticide. May well be a problem to beekeepers. Suggest that you contact your county agents. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 22:10:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Beeswax Properties Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have been working with beeswax that was carefully rendered from cappings at a very low heat (aprox. 160F) in a proprietary home made melter system and noticed that if it is poured in molds soon ( 2 days-3 weeks) after remelting that I have few to zero problems with tunneling or shrinkage. If I leave this gently rendered wax in a water jacketed tank for 3-6 weeks at 163F the wax behaves like beeswax that is rendered at higher temps (180-200F) like in commercial wax melters used in large honey house operations and is what you normally find for resale. So my observation is that beeswax that has been heated for a long time or at elevated temps is much more prone to shrinkage and tunneling in molds. Of course when the outside temps are minus 10F like we have here in Mn right now these shrinkage problems are worse as the wax is cooling faster then as compared to summer months. But with this lower temp rendered wax I don't even have problems in deep winter. Can anyone explain what the variable I am seeing is? Is there a scientific explanation or qualitative measure that can be used to explain this difference I am seeing? This gently rendered wax has superior aroma, texture and color properties and the onset of bloom is also delayed. We call it virgin beeswax.... ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 01:58:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BillSF9c - Bill Smythe Subject: Re: BEE-L Beeswax Properties In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >So my observation is that beeswax that has been heated for a long time or at elevated temps is much more prone to shrinkage and tunneling in molds. >Can anyone explain what the variable I am seeing is? Is there a scientific explanation or qualitative measure that can be used to explain this difference I am seeing? I can't be specific as to beeswax, but some general rules apply. I want to point out one oddity, first... You made it sound as if the shrinkage effect happens, but is delayed, as opposed to happening normally [excessively] with greater heat. That is odd. But possible. Generally I can say 2 things. 1) Some things (chemical actions) occur fast. You/it reaches a level of voltage or temperature or concentration, and, Voillle'! ShaBoom! It all comes together. 2) With heat, volatiles emerge. Heat, can be 70F. Heat and volitiles mean lost mass & "what I will call, buoyancy..." Density, lost from evaporation of volatiles. Just thoughts. Slower bonds do seem the stronger, though. Metals are cooled slowly for strength, and fast, for hardness which means, [short-lived] brittleness. Now, a brittle wax, shrinking ANY, would be more apt to tunnel... eh? Comments MOST welcome...! HNY! BillSF9c ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:00:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: CCD and almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It will be interesting to see what comes out of almonds as far as CCD symptoms re-appearing. It seems, from some reports here on the BeeL that some commercial yards that had extensive CCD problems are in great shape and CCD symptoms have abated. Jerry is probably in the best position to either counter that or agree. If the observed CCD symptoms are decreasing, then those things that have been with us all along - pesticides, nosema, Varroa and the like- are not the cause but something else was. Which would put us back into the original discussion of CCD in that we might just have had another occurrence of Disappearing Disease, something experienced by Beekeepers for decades and still not understood or identified. What I find very interesting is the different nosemas that seems to be around that are not exclusive to bees. What if there is a natural cycle of nosema in nature outside of our bees? Certainly would reflect the cyclic nature of Disappearing Disease. That idea was addressed way back when about possible soil pathogens that caused DD so I cannot claim credit. Also, great post by Randy. It seems it always gets down to agendas (and ethics). You can prove just about anything if you have an agenda. Bill Truesdell (who started keeping weather records Dec 21st and, at the current rate of temperature rise and lengthening daylight, by 2010 we should be in perpetual daylight and temperatures in the 100s here in Maine. Will be even worse for the rest of you. All based on observed data so it must be true.) Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:01:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Bayer witch-hunt? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Griggs Mike [mailto:mhg3@cornell.edu]=20 Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 7:57 AM Subject: Re: Bayer witch-hunt? =20 It is interesting to note this schism here is mostly a=20 misunderstanding as most entomologists start their career spending=20 years studying insects, learning their habits, taking their pictures,=20 following them around on hands & knees however, most end up getting =20 hired to research methods to kill them. What irony. Regardless,=20 many still maintain a level of respect & awe for insects, even if they=20 are not beekeepers. What is Bob Dillans song " everyone needs to=20 serve somebody". Tis true & after a bit of service--they gain=20 allegiance. I'm a beekeeper but also am an entomologist. I can see both sides of=20 the coin & know people on both sides. Chemical company employees vs=20 bug huggers. Do you know how many innocent insects are needlessly=20 slaughtered on our nations hiways? Listen, If you are a commercial=20 orchardist who is trying to protect their trees from an invasive=20 insect that vectors a disease. which if detected will cause regulators=20 to de-send upon your property & thrash & burn all potentially=20 infected trees destroying any hint of profit, You too may use tools=20 available to protect this business. Sounds a lot like commercial=20 beekeeper to me. Chemicals are the only cost effective method of=20 dealing with pests. Like Fluvalinate or fumagillin! So getting back to the entomologist. Many of the people working for=20 pesticide companies are good folks, trained in the same arena as our=20 industry scientists and only trying to come up with tools to help=20 businesses with pest problems. The problem is the negative effect on=20 all insects including bees. Work great on pests but also tend to=20 affect non target s. Been that way since early 1900's. Beekeepers=20 have had problems with insecticides but also have become as reliant as=20 growers on them. Fortunately or unfortunately insecticide chemistry is becoming very=20 much more complex. While becoming safer to the environment and more=20 specific to the target the mode of action is becoming more subtle in=20 effect. This also has tracked our ability to monitor lesser & lessor=20 affects such that we are now concerned with subtle effects caused by=20 orders of magnitude less product. On one hand it is a good thing we=20 are able to discern the effects of parts per billion on the other its=20 a curse --we suddenly become paranoid of concentrations our fathers=20 would laugh at. My grandfather told me of using his arm to mix tanks=20 of insecticide with his arm by rolling up his sleeve. Probably was=20 Carbamates or organophosphates on the farm. So to end--Ya get more flies to Honey than Vinegar--I believe we need=20 to work with & Bayer--some trust may go a long way-- If these=20 scientists find problems with this chemistry they will do the right=20 thing and report to their superiors. We need them as allies not foes! Just my opinion. I've certainly used lots of chems--But in my apiary=20 I'm choosing to not use them!!! Mike Griggs ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 13:22:46 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: BEE-L Beeswax Properties Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i forwarded this question to an engineer friend (the kind of engineer that actually builds things), here was his thoughts: "wow, this is a tough one. Shrinkage in materials that are freezing (in the general term) is common. With metals, we call it caving. You see it in castings all the time. I think this is similar to the shrinkage that we see in waxes for casting. He says that the lower temperature rendering results in less shrinkage. He also says that the lower temperature results in better aroma, texture and color properties. Without knowing the chemical composition of bees' wax, my guess is that the wax is losing water and aromatics to the higher heat. Those materials may cause a 'fluffing up' of the base material like water in a sponge. Careful density measurement of the two styles of rendering end products would yield some good data. Jim" ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:56:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Beeswax Properties Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would suggest Beeswax : production, harvesting, processing, and products by William L. Coggshall and Roger A. Morse illustrations by Susan Sarabasha Ithaca, N.Y. : Wicwas Press, 1984 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:52:58 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: CCD and almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill T wrote: > If the observed CCD symptoms are decreasing, then those things that have > been with us all along - pesticides, nosema, Varroa and the like - are not > the cause but something else was. Is that really the case? You asked if there could be a natural cycle of nosema; I would agree that it is very likely. We also see cycles in many other diseases, including damage from varroa. The effect of pesticides may not be cyclic in the same way as diseases, but crop rotation could cause them to have a cyclic impact where certain pesticides are associated with specific crops (appreciate that is not the case with a fixed crop such as almonds). So, as I see it, our bees are subject to various stresses (including the weather), many perhaps sublethal and most of which could be cyclic (or random) to some extent. The real problems will occur when they peak together. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 12:15:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: CCD and almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/23/2009 6:02:06 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, bathbeekeeper@GMAIL.COM writes: Jerry is probably in the best position to either counter that or agree. If the observed CCD symptoms are decreasing, ... things that have been with us all along - pesticides, nosema, Varroa and the like- are not the cause but something else was. .... back into the original discussion of CCD ... might just have had another occurrence of Disappearing Disease So far, I've only had occasional, scattered reports of CCD this year - much different from last two years at this time. We are still at the time when beekeepers are taking final looks at their hives, and this is the time of year when we've tended to see CCD manifest itself in its full blown state. As many know, we may have a pathogen lead, are trying hard to nail it down. If it proves out - we need to find some funds, to do the Koch's test (inoculate, induce, confirm, recover)- we might have a major part of the puzzle. We think that we have a likely candidate and its not pesticides, nosema, varroa per se - although each might contribute as a trigger. Jerry **************From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:49:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: old extractor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Is there anyone interested in an old (1930's ?) Root 2-frame reversible extractor for a museum or as collector item? One for sale locally, hate to see it go to junk. Can send photo. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:51:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alf Bashore Subject: Re: old extractor In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10901222049w67e73509q3356f982aa9ca123@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Randy, I could be interested, but I hate to think of the shipping fee across the US to eastern PA. I ought to say that if no one else is interested, then I will be. I have a window in a local barbershop where I show my old tools, some old beekeeping equipment, and old musical instruments. I rotate this stuff a couple of times a year. I guess, since I am getting old myself, I just might have a turn living in that window in a few years. By the way, I enjoy reading your enlightening articles here on the list and in the journals. Alf Bashore randy oliver wrote: > Hi All, > > Is there anyone interested in an old (1930's ?) Root 2-frame reversible > extractor for a museum or as collector item? One for sale locally, hate to > see it go to junk. Can send photo. > > Randy Oliver > > ******************************************************* > * Search the BEE-L archives at: * > * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * > ******************************************************* > > ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:43:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Nosema spp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim wrote, back in May 2008 > I'm gonna go out on a limb here. Gotta do it, as out on limbs is where the ripe fruit hangs. What we have been calling "Nosema ceranae" may or may not be actual Nosema ceranae. What we have been calling "Nosema apis" may not be Nosema apis, either. One or both of what we are seeing may be a variant of "Nosema bombi" that jumped hosts from Bumblebee to Honey bee. Me: This question has kept me thinking for the past 9 months, and has given birth to this collection of obscure facts: > Nosema bombi infects multiple bumble bee (Bombus) species, and Nosema apis and Nosema ceranae are known from western (Apis mellifera) and Asian honey bees (Apis cerana), respectively. Although the phylogenetic relationship of Bombus spp., A. cerana, and A. mellifera is unambiguous, the phylogeny of their respective Nosema parasites is less clear. Different analyses using almost identical GenBank submissions have yielded conflicting results, placing N. apis closer to N. ceranae, N. apis closer to N. bombi, or N. bombi closer to N. ceranae. > Nosema bombi infects a number of different host tissues, which may explain why infection in multiple bumble bee species is observed. This low host specificity could have facilitated host-switching by ancestral N. bombi stock to Asian honey bees. In addition, virtually ubiquitous bumble bee species (300 in total) have undoubtedly had historical contact with Asian honey bees, which could have aided host-switching. A second hypothesis involves an ancestral N. ceranae host switching to an ancestral lineage of bumble bee. Similar distribution patterns support this argument, because home ranges of ancestral Asian honey bees and some bumble bee species likely overlapped. > Recent work suggests N. ceranae may be the main contributing factor to the bee die-offs in Europe. Preliminary data suggest fumagillin, an antibiotic used to control N. apis, is effective against N. ceranae. However, because fumagillin was ineffective against N. bombi in the bumble bee Bombus occidentalis and, given the above noted similarities shared with N. ceranae, i.e., infection of multiple tissue types, further work is needed. * * * > Bombus terrestris was first used as a managed commercial pollinator about a decade ago. The industry is now flourishing worldwide. The natural area of distribution of B. terrestris covers all of continental Europe, the south of England, and the south of Scandinavia. Companies in Europe specialize in providing colonies at various stages of development. The main exporting countries worldwide are the Netherlands, Belgium, and Israel; the main importing countries are Mexico, Japan, China, Korea, Jordan, Spain, and Italy. In Japan, this species has been used for pollination of tomato plants in glasshouses since 1991. More than 40,000 colonies of B. terrestris are imported into Japan from Europe each year. > Japanese companies have started commercializing native species of bumblebees. B. ignitus colonies have been developed and sold in Japan since 1998; this practice is expected to reduce the ecological risks posed by introduced species. However, queens of B. ignitus collected in Japan have been exported to the Netherlands, where the colonies are mass-produced. Those colonies are then reimported into Japan for commercial sale. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 07:11:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Bees recognize faces MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another example of money that should have gone to CCD research. Something we already knew. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-01/mu-nii012209.php The study showed that bees can recognize faces in different aspects (head turned) after seeing them in at least two positions before. We already knew this from their flying around our heads to get a better look and make sure they were stinging the right person. (For those new to the list, I tend to inject my own brand of humor into my posts, so if you are of a serious nature, disregard everything except the second and third lines.) Bill Truesdell (who, since he joined the beekeeper cocaine study, will soon be seen on Dancing with the Stars. ) Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 15:49:31 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Bees recognize faces MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill T: > Another example of money that should have gone to CCD research. Something > we > already knew. Not really bee-centred research, more about artificial intelligence. Look likes the bees were just a convenient insect: http://www.med.monash.edu.au/physiology/staff/dyer.html Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 11:11:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Stewart Subject: Buzzing bees protect plant leaves In-Reply-To: <8c0381120901240411t65931e13jd21d61592e9f7e03@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought I would share. As a beekeeper and a grower of soybeans I found the article interesting. The idea of having bees as part of IPM program is rather fascinating. http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/39514/title/Buzzing_bees_protect_plant_leaves Have a great weekend. Richard Stewart Carriage House Farm North Bend, Ohio An Ohio Century Farm Est. 1855 (513) 967-1106 http://www.carriagehousefarmllc.com rstewart@zoomtown.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 12:22:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Seeking a Bee Article from Penn State Libraries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am seeking a copy of the Delaware Weekly Advertiser And Farmers Journal Thursday, May 22, 1828 Wilmington, Delaware Vol I No. 36 Article of interest titled: 'APIS MELLIFICA, OR HONEY BEE.' "Read before the Delaware Academy of Natural Science, by Isaac Peirce, and ordered to be printed" The Library Research Department at the University of Delaware has determined that the article I am seeking is archived in an online database named 19th Century U.S. Newspapers. I so far, have not been able to gain access to this database. I was informed that Penn State has acquired this database, And was suggested to me that I contact the Reference Department at Penn State, or someone who as access, and may be so kind to obtain the article for me or send contact information for the Research Department, or others at Penn State that may help in my search for the article. Send to: naturebee@yahoo.com Thanks Joe ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:53:53 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Bogus Advertising MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 19/01/2009 01:57:04 GMT Standard Time, mpalmer@TOGETHER.NET writes: How is insulation supposed to affect colony health, prevent CCD, and promote healthy brood?? I recently opened one of my CDB hives when the temperature was about freezing point in order to give it a trickle of oxalic. CDBs have the option of being turned into double skinned hives in winter to maximise protection from the elements, but I don't usually bother. The cluster was in the part of the hive nearest the part that gets the winter sunshine unobstructed by trees and other hives. On another occasion I opened a National in slanticular winter sunshine. The National has thick cedar walls which should provide good insulation, but I was struck by the difference in temperature within the hive between the sunny side and the shaded side. I suggest that the best form of insulation for a colony of bees is the bees themselves as their bodies are composed largely of air sacs, and are hairy. Their habit of expanding or contracting the cluster to form a communal, living, thermostat enables them to cope with most temperatures, but the additional warmth coming through not overly insulated walls on cold but sunny days enables the cluster to expand somewhat to gain access to stores that might otherwise be out of reach. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:58:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: What is the cause for Granulation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 19/01/2009 02:47:33 GMT Standard Time, bobbee@INTERLOG.COM writes: I produce only raw honey and do not heat or filter. My summer honey is usually very fine crystals while the fall honey is coarser but still spreadable at room temperature. Me too, (well, not above 40C). There is demand for both clear and crystallised honey so I keep a reserve of finely crystallised in order to seed a proportion of my runny in a controlled way. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:20:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: Bayer witch-hunt? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >So to end--Ya get more flies to Honey than Vinegar--I believe we need >to work with & Bayer--some trust may go a long way-- If these >scientists find problems with this chemistry they will do the right t>hing and report to their superiors. >Mike Griggs It sounds right Mike, but my faith is weak. Can we also apply the same confidence to pharmacology? Alden Marsdhall ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 00:38:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BillSF9c - Bill Smythe Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - Buzzing bees protect plant leaves In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Thought I would share. As a beekeeper and a grower of soybeans I >found the article interesting. The idea of having bees as part of IPM >program is rather fascinating. >http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/39514/title/Buzzing_bees_prot ect_plant_leaves >Have a great weekend. >Richard Stewart "Honeybees don't hunt caterpillars, but Tautz says he was out walking his dog one day, listening to the buzz of bees, when it occurred to him that, to a caterpillar, bees’ wing beats might sound similar to wasps’." A snippet from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bee Evolution Bees, like ants, are a specialized form of wasp. The ancestors of bees were wasps in the family Crabronidae, and therefore predators of other insects. ...so, it makes sense. I wonder if insects "hear" of feel the vibrations of the bees' wing-currents on the vegetation... Since we're sharing http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/avoid_soy.htm Bees visit soy? (There's a joke in there somewhere, about them being predominately girls, LOL! ...er, Ahem...) BillSF9c ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 22:20:10 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Geoff Manning Subject: Re: What is the cause for Granulation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "patrice32@juno.com" > What causes granulation? : > > Temperature > Moisture content > Pollen? > Other particles to be filtered out? > Ratio of glucose to fructose in certain nectars , like aster? All of the above, with maybe the exception of moisture. Geoff Manning ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 07:18:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: A Cerana has an advantage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0004239;jsessionid=13BD2D86CD5D4E74D8928657CBE82AD4 "The results indicated that the Asiatic honeybee adult generated more variable antimicrobial peptides, especially hymenoptaecin peptides than the Western honeybee when stimulated by pathogens or injury. This suggests that, compared to the Western honeybee that has a longer history of domestication, selection on the Asiatic honeybee has favored the generation of more variable antimicrobial peptides as protection against pathogens." Another interesting difference between the two which might explain some of the "tolerance" of A Cerana to Varroa, since Varroa is a vector. Bill Truesdell (who, even after he explains the joke is taken seriously, so here I am serious.) Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 09:08:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: A Cerana has an advantage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 07:18:20 -0500, Bill T wrote: > This suggests that, >compared to the Western honeybee that has a longer history of domestication, >selection on the Asiatic honeybee has favored the generation of more >variable antimicrobial peptides as protection against pathogens." They also stated: > It’s puzzling that the Asiatic honeybee does not produce propolis. How does the Asiatic honeybee protect the larvae? I saw this article too, but I thought there were some faulty assumptions in it. First, why do they say Asian bees have a shorter history of domestication? Honey bees were "domesticated" long before the reach of recorded history, therfore we don't have any way of knowing which was kept first, not to mention the bees of tropical America. Furthermore, they have never been domesticated in the correct sense, being still essentially wild. Finally, their evolutionary history stretches into the millions of years whereas their history of being in managed hives is in the hundreds or at most thousands, depending upon how you define "management" and the alleged implications of it. The second statement raised in my mind the further question: does this perhaps point to propolis having little effect other than the waterproofing of the hive? Maybe it has far less anti-bacterial power than everyone supposes. It obviously lacks the power to prevent foulbrood, a bacterial disease, and it fails to repel chalkbrood, sacbrood, and the rest (fungi, viruses, etc.). Which brings us right back to the issue of the honey bee immune system. The "front line" of the honey bee immune system is house cleaning behaviour. If this is strong in the colony, then infections can be kept from developing, much as a degree of cleanliness is essential for human health and the prevention of disease. Incidentally, I have an article coming out in the ABJ soon, perhaps March, on this topic. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 08:59:11 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: When a Talk Goes Wrong. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I forwarded Jerry's mail to a friend and her response is thus (with a little light editing!): Chris "Poor chap. Sadly, I have agree with his position on the dismal basis most research (and regulatory tests too come to think of it), are conducted and reviewed. And actually beekeepers are some of the worse practitioners and beneficiaries of 'applied science'. For example we know the hive is a complex chemical world and we know we do not understand and cannot yet explain all the hows and whys. Regardless man made chemicals are approved and licensed for use in the hive, without a full and proper understanding of the effect of the insertion on the bee base. Man made chemicals are approved on the basis that they kill the mite and do not kill the bees outright. Very scientific.... I think what we are seeing now maybe the result of too many sub lethal combinations i.e chemical upon chemical from source after source, from the beekeeper direct, pesticides from the farmers & gardeners etc etc And the students, well, I am afraid there is always a 'brittle' contingent, who have learnt all they know by rote - that is what they know and understand and that is all there is. I can think of many fully fledged professors and scientists in the same mould with inflexible and unimaginative minds, unable to process alternative thoughts from current information. Science for science sake = fake science. Rxxxxx and Dxxxxxx spring to mind. Sounds like he behaved in a perfectly proper professional manner with his audience. New news is not always popular as people have to re think or re learn. For what it is worth, I for one think he is far down the right track. Most interesting. Thanks". ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 09:16:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 23 Jan 2009 to 24 Jan 2009 (#2009-24) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) It sounds right Mike, but my faith is weak. Can we also apply the same confidence to pharmacology? Alden Marsdhall --------- Always a few willing to do the wrong thing for enough money. Unfortunately. Human nature I suppose. Eventually the overall system tends to rebound & correct (albeit very late) things or change things. Even with the problems ($$$$ pushing chems known to be bad to market) in the pharmacological industry --there are some amazing chemicals that help one & all!! Mike ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 08:47:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: "A Spring Without Bees" ( was Bayer witch-hunt?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alden said: >> It sounds right Mike, but my faith is weak. Can we also apply the same >> confidence to pharmacology? Again I suggest all beekeepers get a copy of "A Spring Without Bees " by Michael Schacker and read carefully. The book outlines exactly what has happened over the years with pesticides(DDT and Penncap M and on) . Michael has spent countless weeks researching the facts and arranging in an easy to read way. Michael lists the sources of his facts so if the information contained in the book ( kind of a neonicotinoids 101) does not convince beeks the neonicotinoids are problems for beekeepers then one can go to the different sources quoted and research further. I would love to spend weeks posting interesting facts on the so called "Bayer witch-hunt" but could never do the job Michael has done. Several of us have spent quite a bit of money buying the book to give to people we think need to read the book and might not go to the trouble to buy and read on their own. Perhaps beeks on BEE-L have found a copy in their mailbox. If so please read and then pass the book on to others to read. The book will be paperback in May. Right now you can get free shipping from Barnes & Noble if you order two books. You can get a copy sent to your home and the second to a friend and get the free shipping. My last order sent books in several directions with free shipping. If you join their book club you can get a 20% discount on your order. My hope is we can get a copy on shelves of major book suppliers so all interested can pickup and see if a book worth reading. If reading and the librarian for your local club please consider ordering for your library from one of the booksellers. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 09:32:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 23 Jan 2009 to 24 Jan 2009 (#2009-24) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Even with the problems ($$$$ pushing chems known to be bad to market) in > the pharmacological industry --there are some amazing chemicals that help > one & all!! *if* problem chemicals could be removed from the market as fast as sent then the system would work in my opinion. Reform is badly needed. Both the FDA & EPA. Our news media seems interested in O.J. Simpson or Anna Nichole and the countless stories which make the public look away from the real issues which should be making front page news! bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 10:09:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: A Cerana has an advantage In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >[Propolis] obviously lacks the power to prevent foulbrood, a bacterial > disease, and it fails to repel chalkbrood, sacbrood, and the rest (fungi, > viruses, etc.). Propolis is interesting, Pete. Obviously, bees can get all the above diseases even when propolis is present, but I would hesitate to state that it obviously lacks any power. One would need to do an experiment with bees in a greenhouse, such that they could collect no propolis, and compare to those which were given some. It may not be a black or white situation--perhaps propolis knocks back the parasites by some percentage. Both the Uruguayan paper that used the ethanolic extract to suppress AFB, and Marla Spivak's work indicate that extracts of propolis, when applied in a hive, can effect parasites. This indicates that there is something to the product. I recently collected propolis for Dr Spivak from an area where I have less of a mite problem than in other areas. Each propolis has a different complement of phenols, etc. Dr Spivak found that some had more effects upon varroa than others. Although propolis is likely not a panacea, it certainly would not dismiss its potential benefits to the colony out of hand. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 11:25:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jan. 18 Randy Oliver wrote: > Some growers have decided to forego a crop this year due > to water prices. That freed up thousands of colonies that > are being offered at fire sale prices. CCD may have run > its course in most operations, making for more supply. > I won't be placing all of my colonies: (My numbers > rebounded this year) If anyone needs a few more colonies > in North [Sacramento] Valley... Randy, a major Sacramento Valley newspaper pubished an ominous sounding article today: HONEY BEES COULD BE IN SHORT SUPPLY http://www.chicoer.com/news/ci_11548637 Excerpts: CHICO - Honey bees used for crop pollination are taking a beating....Particularly at risk are almond farmers who need a massive number of bee hives at almond bloom in early February. Finding a way to foster native bee populations is a one possible strategy to supplement the rental of bees. Mace Vaughan works with the Xerces Society noted some farmers are opting not to grow almonds due to uncertainty with bees, as well as the increased cost for bee rental due to shortages. "With fewer bees available, it's important to diversify the pollinators and expand habitat," Vaughan said. Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 14:30:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Almond pollination In-Reply-To: <497CBCAD.58FF@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Paul & All, I like my friend Randy are careful to make predications about hives for almonds but I think we both can safely say more than enough hives are in California for almond pollination. I know of around a 1000 hives in California right now needing placed. Email me direct and I will help. Other loads could be sent if needed but trucking would need arranged and a contract signed in advance of shipment. The key words in the story is the word "could". I also might add that the story can change in a hurry once hives are in an graded. Also next week hives from the Midwest will arrive and go directly into almonds. Many of these coming from record cold and snow. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 17:21:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" ( was Bayer witch-hunt?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I thought the book was mostly hype and not documented very well. The title says it all.....hype I felt the Fruitless Fall by Rowand Jacobsen was better balanced and not as speculative. I guess it depends on what axe you have to grind. Can't wait for the doomsday bee movies to come out in 2009 and beyond. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 13:38:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Almond pollination In-Reply-To: <497CBCAD.58FF@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >a major Sacramento Valley newspaper pubished an ominous > sounding article today: HONEY BEES COULD BE IN SHORT SUPPLY Thanks, Paul. At last Wednesday's Calif Queen Breeders meeting, someone mentioned the workshop in Chico, which had apparently not been announced to beekeepers. The newspaper author is apparently totally oblivious to the current situation. I've been speaking with some major pollination brokers. The situation is still up in the air. There currently appears to be a glut of colonies, mainly due to the lack of water for irrigation. However, there are two mitigating factors. First, many beekeepers are currently doing their before move in inspections of their colonies. Every year a certain percentage of colonies are culled, depending upon the scrupulousness of the beekeeper (some don't cull at all). I'm hearing of cull rates this week of 8-10%, which is not unusual. So the supply depends partly upon how realistic beekeepers were about their final numbers when they signed contracts. The actual supply could change in a hurry, as Bob said. Second, I'm currently running down confirmation about crop insurance for almonds. I just heard this morning that it is going at $1.80/lb, which is higher than current market value. However, to obtain an insurance settlement, the grower apparently needs to manage the orchard normally. So even if he has no water, he must still place two colonies of bees per acre in order to collect insurance. So I'm not sure just what kinds of games are being played by growers with the water issue. Most beekeepers are holding to their prices, or at most dropping a few dollars. But there are also giveaway ads in the papers. These generally don't appear until the last minute. And some years the last minute ads have been for sky high prices--it all depends upon the last minute supply and demand. Randy Oliver Snowing at my place, sunny in the almonds two hours away ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 20:31:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" ( was Bayer witch-hunt?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All >I thought the book was mostly hype and not documented very well. The title >says it all.....hype I was hoping dialog would start by beeks reading the book. What did you think about the hypothesis presented on page 99 through 102. Coincidence? Beeks reading have to be startled by the facts presented. I was! What thoughts ran through your head when you read the hypothesis Brian? bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 09:43:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A friend from California writes > This is the first year in 5 that my colonies survived the winter. I currently have about 850 alive. I should make an 8 frame average on about 800. I fed two feedings of Fumagillan in September about 3 weeks apart. It was mixed for the gallon feeding for the inside feeder. I have also been feeding about 2 pounds of pollen substitute every 2 weeks since mid September. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 09:09:46 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" ( was Bayer witch-hunt?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob: what's the ISBN? Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 09:53:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" In-Reply-To: <200901261449.n0QDnDUM001680@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 30 seconds on Google gave: Published by: Globe Pequot Press eBook Publish Date: November 28, 2008 Print ISBN: 1599214326 Filesize: 9.61 MB ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:40:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: New Year in New York MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings This weekend I visited with Jim Fisher's NY City beekeeping group. I had a great time, met lots of new people whose enthusiasm for the world of honey bees was evident. One person mentioned to me that he enjoyed reading Bee-L but at times it got bogged down in esoterica. If anyone doesn't know what THAT is, -- well, that's the problem. My New Year's resolution is to try to keep to more popular topics and to encourage beginners and the chronically inquisitive to ask questions. To me the only dumb question is the one you don't ask. I have been insulted by the best of them by asking "stupid" questions and I say, keep going forward! To stop learning is to stop living. If anyone has a burning question that they don't want their name attached to, feel free to mail it directly to me and we'll get you an answer. I may post the answer but anonymity will be assured. It's not that I am presenting myself as a know it all, but I do know how to find out and I have a lot of friends in the bee world. Finally, I would like to one more time plug the Bee-L Archives, which are now almost 20 years old. They are a treasury of information, easily searchable, and full of my previous blunders. I have probably changed my mind on every topic we have ever discussed here; at least twice. I hope to see some of you this year at SABA and EAS -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 08:22:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Erin Martin Subject: Re: New Year in New York In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > This weekend I visited with Jim Fisher's NY City > beekeeping group. I > had a great time, met lots of new people whose enthusiasm I enjoyed the tone of your post and I'm looking forward to whatever topics emerge! I did stop to wonder about a NYC beekeeping club since it's illegal there. Are these suburban beekeepers or defiant city ones who openly organize and meet? Erin ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:28:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" ( was Bayer witch-hunt?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chris & All, ISBN:978-1-59921-432-0 bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 09:32:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Almond pollination In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > This is the first year in 5 that my colonies survived the winter. Pete, this sounds like a typical case. Those who got on mites, nosema, and feeding protein are generally doing well. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:46:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alf Bashore Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" ( was Bayer witch-hunt?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, As a relatively new (5 years this Spring) beekeeper, I've read many hundreds of dollars of books. I happen to know to of the beekeepers mentioned in the book, since I live in between them. Their stories are interesting. I found the entire book interesting, however I saw that it is slanted all against pesticides. I did not read of any allowances for diseases of any kind, of nutritional concerns, of weather issues (too wet, too dry, too hot, too cold), crowded conditions (think military--more soldiers die of illness and accidents, than from battle wounds), nor of any other possibilities for the CCD catastrophe. I did follow the writer's thesis, but wished he would have written with less sensationalism. I have been very patient with waiting for what the Penn State bee researchers and others (some beekeepers on this list participate with their own research) have come up with in the past two years. My patience has been slowly rewarded. It is the amounts of contaminants in the brood comb, the amount of contaminants in the newly acquired pollen, the stresses of migratory beekeeping, the new viruses and the cross over of diseases from other kinds of bees that I find most intriguing. My thoughts on pesticides is that, though I don't use them on my fields or in my colonies, they are best used sparingly in IPM practices by IPM specialists. If I ever needed to use chemicals, I would very carefully weigh out the benefits vs. the negatives before any application. Since I have worked in health care for 41 years, my trust in big pharmaceuticals, big hospitals, and modern health care is under 50%. There are some great things happening in the health care field, that is for sure. But is the outcome equal to society's costs? The overuse of antibiotics in health care over decades has created bad nasty germs. Us beekeepers will find that in the future "clean" medical honey will be increasingly used for healing treacherous nasty wounds and for prevention of those wounds. The physicians where I work have disclaimed the use of honey in wound healing as "folk medicine." In comparison, how has the use of chemicals (antibiotics, pesticides, etc) in the care of bees helped rid the bees of their problems. It hasn't. It has compounded the problems and issues. So here we are now discussing them. Back to the book. It presented only one side of the story about the demise of bees. I am glad I read it. Alf Bob Harrison wrote: > Alden said: >>> It sounds right Mike, but my faith is weak. Can we also apply the >>> same confidence to pharmacology? > Again I suggest all beekeepers get a copy of "A Spring Without Bees " by > Michael Schacker and read carefully. Michael > has spent countless weeks researching the facts and arranging in an > easy to > read way. > > ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:01:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: "A Spring Without Bees" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just got the book. As I suspected, we are going to have a real field day with this baby. > As far as CCD-free regions go, there do appear to be some explanations. Some southern areas of the US are not reporting CCD, This might correlate with the spread of the Africanized bee, the so-called "killer bee," into honey bee populations in those places. African bees so far seem to be immune to colony collapse disorder, at least according to anecdotal reports in small-town newspapers. Anecdotal reports in small-town newspapers? Is the level of expertise we can expect from the book? Appears so. A look at the index finds no Bromenshenks but Burt's Bees. Right away he refers to Hackenberg and Dennis van Englesdorp. Hackenberg called upon Dennis for help early on. Most of the book revolves around the pesticide connection as promoted by Hackenberg and others. Hackenberg says "I am convinced that neonicitinoids may play a role in CCD." By the way, I am convinced they MAY play a role, too. They don't appear to be at all interested in Dennis's conclusions. By the way, I know Dennis and have immense respect for his knowledge of the situation. > Dennis van Englesdorp, the acting Pennsylvania State Apiarist, a beekeeper, and a leading researcher, insists that insecticides cannot be tagged as the culprit. "We have NO evidence to think that theory is more right than ANY OTHER ..." page 109 Bayer is probably mentioned the most, followed by the author's personal favorite "Plan Bee". > Your donation will help implement PLAN BEE to STOP colony collapse disorder and save the bees! ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:38:17 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Clearly the sensational approach has once again worked for a journalist - he is selling plenty of books (especially to beekeepers!). I shall not be giving him any money. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:56:23 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: As far as CCD-free regions go, there do appear to be some explanations. Some southern areas of the US are not reporting CCD, This might correlate with .... Anecdotal reports ..... A look at the index finds no Bromenshenks but Burt's Bees. I think I've said this before. The author of the book wanted to use our CCD survey results and maps - but he would not show me how he was going to use them in the context of his book. I'm not comfortable with allowing our work to be quoted and re-printed without knowing how the information is going to be used. As per the southern areas not reporting CCD, most filled in the following year (2008). Jerry **************From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:31:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:56:23 EST, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: >I'm not comfortable with allowing our work to be quoted and re-printed without knowing how the information is going to be used. Hmm. They contacted me about using some of my photos and when I said I was not comfortable with having my photos used without seeing their thesis first, they went somewhere else. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:20:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" ( was Bayer witch-hunt?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 20:31:03 -0600, Bob Harrison wrote: > What did you think about the hypothesis presented on page 99 through 102. > >Coincidence? > >What thoughts ran through your head...? I thought, if I shot at a target with a shotgun, I'd probably get a bulls-eye, among other things. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:36:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jerry & All, Jerry said; > I'm not comfortable with allowing our work to be quoted and re-printed > without knowing how the information is going to be used. Michael simply took your survey results ( CHART & sources given on page 260). and checked the section 18 permits for the various states / years. I did the same thing in 2007 and found a link (just as Michael did) coincidence? Maybe or maybe not. In 2008 I tried to get a discussion started on BEE-L about what I saw but was quickly shouted down ( in archives ). I also stated if you look at Canada hive loss and neonicotinoid use the same pattern stands out. I tried to point out to researchers the pattern but to no avail. Turning back the clock to the time period: Back when hives were crashing across the U.S. ( started almost 2 years before Jerry named CCD ) we suspected something unusual was happening in our bees. I spent many days in various areas trying to figure what the problem was. Our consensus was a virus. We suspected our varroa controls were failing and virus (PMS like) were causing problems. Still even SHb would not invade deadouts.Also our symptoms did not exactly fit the known virus symptoms. Hives crashed to fast for us to believe a pathogen was the problem. We basically were stumped * Some of the losses I believe now were caused by nosema ceranae but our USDA/ARS dropped the ball and did no testing for nosema ceranae in the U.S. despite widespread losses in Spain directly blamed on on Nosema ceranae. Sure we did spore counts and testing but the new nosema left almost no spotting on comb and the symptoms appeared during the summer which we had never seen with nosema apis before. KBV was turned up and beeks suspected a problem but if you control varroa then KBV is *usually* a non issue we were told. 2 years later: Then CCD came along and the U.S. beekeeping world saw what we had saw. We thought the best researcher beekeeping minds would quickly solve the issue which stumped us. Not so and the CCD team spent a great deal of time looking at the same things we had. Going down the same dead end roads. We knew trying to say those roads led us to a dead end was a waste of time but also we felt researchers needed to take a fresh look. If you think back Jerry you will remember my silence and seemed lack of interest in your survey. Quite the opposite was true but sharing what we knew would not help you as the CCD team in my opinion was not interested in the beekeeper hypothesis and we were actually left out of many meetings. We had to rely on the many leaks coming from the CCD working group for updates on what was happening. late 2007: Then I did as Michael did and looked at the states which had the most declared cases of CCD and then looked at the section 18's issued and like Michael I saw a pattern. What is my opinion as to why things changed in 2008? It is my opinion and only a opinion/hypothesis but I believe the maker of Imidacloprid saw the same pattern several of us did and adjusted the formula. Although only a hypothesis (and certainly I am unable without the makers help to substantiate )would explain why we are now seeing healthy bees in those areas. The chemical background people I have consulted all agree that my hypothesis as sound. Those people said when a chemical is sold which is supposed to kill say 18 different insects the formula strength is set to kill the hardest insect listed even though some may be controlled with a less potent dose. I have NEVER said CCD is caused by the neonicotinoids. What I have said is I believe the neonicotinoids can kill bees if not used with prudence. To my knowledge CCD has no single cause however pesticides has been listed as one of four possible causes. All of the four possible causes listed by the CCD working group need further research. Consider this hypothesis: The chemical company through its own research sees a problem with its product so what would be its best solution: My hypothesis: Quietly correct the formula. I doubt we will ever know what caused the last bee kill but commercial beeks look forward and not at the past. I will be interested to see if problems occur in orange in Florida this year. If those producing orange honey get a decent crop and the bees come out in good condition then one has to wonder what changed. Sorry for the long post and sure others have their own hypothesis of what caused the last bee kill. The floor is all yours! bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:19:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] "A Spring Without Bees" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Editors Note: I've dropped the "( was Bayer witch-hunt?)" from this = title of this thread in the interest of fair and open discussion. ________________________________ From: randysbees@gmail.com on behalf of randy oliver Sent: Mon 2009.01.26 21:12 > > > What did you think about the hypothesis presented on page 99 through = 102? I jumped straight to the meat and read those pages! >From page 99: "So the North American subspecies, Apis mellifera = ligustica, also known as the "Italian" bee, stops producing brood in late = May,...The U.S. bees thus are not feeding heavily in June and July when the = heaviest pesticide applications are made, while French bees are." Statements such as the above make me question the author's research into = the subject, and his conclusions. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:55:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: "A Spring Without Bees" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit p. 98 Shacker writes that nine beekeepers ended up suing Bayer in 2002 for loss of their hives and income. He says "the world will now be watching" the test case of Bauer v. Bayer. After six years the case was dismissed due to lack of evidence. WILLIAMSPORT, Pa. — A putative class action alleging that the insecticide imidacloprid treatment of canola seed is killing honeybees and reducing honey production was dismissed June 20 in the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Pennsylvania because the plaintiffs failed to produce evidence to survive summary judgment (Dale Bauer, et al v. Bayer A.G., et al., No. 03-1687, M.D. Pa.; 2008 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 48013) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:49:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, Beekeepers losing in U.S. court in pesticide lawsuits is the norm. wining is rare. Very rare! Ask Jerry! Bayer has lost lawsuits in Europe! 2 million in one lawsuit. lets discuss the facts presented and not Michaels conclusions. I would never attempt a lawsuit in the U.S. against Bayer. .In fact I have advised several beeks that a U.S. lawsuit is not the answer. I agree with what Randy posted about what Bayer said its position was. correct dosage is the answer. always has been. Perhaps??????? the dosage for imidacloprid is now correct on certain problem crops? Many beeks (myself included) have lost hives to the neonicotinoids and will leave some test hives in those areas next season to see if the situation has changed. Surely our researchers did not find what is causing the die off and gave U.S. beeks the solution which has led the best bees in years? What happened in 2008 in the U.S. to produce the best bees in year? bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 01:40:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] "A Spring Without Bees" In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA3414BA137@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe he did his research in my part of lower Alabama.=A0 Most honey flow i= s over by that time. Mike in LA From: randysbees@gmail.com on behalf of randy oliver Sent: Mon 2009.01.26 21:12 > > > What did you think about the hypothesis presented on page 99 through 102? >From page 99: "...."Italian" bee, stops producing brood in late May,...The U.S. bees thus are not feeding heavily in June and July when the= heaviest pesticide applications are made, while French bees are." Statements such as the above make me question the author's research into the subject, and his conclusions. =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:31:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" In-Reply-To: <29A10274D68B4D2180A5DE942D7FB2C2@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >What happened in 2008 in the U.S. to produce the best bees in year? Obviously the election of our new president. Duh! Elected in November--no more CCD! Inaugurated in January, giving colonies new hope to survive. Simple cause and effect--hard to miss the correlation. Randy Oliver Same disclaimers as Bill T ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 08:13:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10901262131jf95756aoc39416e214bb1ece@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Simple cause and effect--hard to miss the correlation. > > > Randy Oliver > Same disclaimers as Bill T Funny. As noted, all humor must have truth to be funny. The problem with most advocacy books is they are just that, trying to prove a point by whatever means. You can take absolutely valid data and, by changing start or end points, or determining some data must be dropped (since it does not fit the hypothesis), or adding in hypothesized data (as was done in a recent Antarctic warming temperature study) you can prove just about anything. It is very nice to insist that CCD and pesticides are linked, but there is just no proof. In fact, there is proof that they are not, based on Jerry's and Penn State's findings. So it really gets down to what we want to believe instead of looking at the facts. The real humor in this is we are told, on one hand, to throw out any Bayer Studies as they are biased, but believe an anti-pesticide activist's book because he is not. What is good for the goose should also be good for the gander. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 08:13:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: "A Spring Without Bees" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am going to abstain from further comment on Plan Bee from Outer Space. If you go to the web site, the key component of Plan Bee seems to be to buy the book, which if you have the book, you already did. Incidentally I did not buy the book, but got it from a library > Here's what you can do! Click here to find out more~ > Buy "A Spring Without Bees"–read it and pass it on to a friend! > Help fund Plan BEE–Order a copy of the Book directly from us! > Please donate. We are self-funded and all volunteers. We need your help! http://planbeecentral.wordpress.com/ * * * Contaminants of bee products Stefan BOGDANOV Agroscope Liebefeld Posieux, Swiss Bee Research Centre, Liebefeld, 3003 Bern, Switzerland The results presented in this review show, that the main contamination danger for bee products originates more from apicultural practices than from the environment. The main contamination risks for the different bee products are: • Honey: antibiotics • Wax: persistent lipophylic acaricides • Propolis: persistent lipophylic acaricides, lead • Pollen: pesticides • Royal jelly: antibiotics. The main ones are acaricides: lipophylic synthetic compounds and non-toxic substances such as organic acids and components of essential oils; and antibiotics used for the control of bee brood diseases, mainly tetracyclines, streptomycine, sulfonamides and chloramphenicol. Other substances used in beekeeping play a minor role: para-dichlorobenzene, used for the control of wax moth and chemical repellents. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 08:35:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 25 Jan 2009 to 26 Jan 2009 (#2009-26) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) > Bob wrote: > I agree with what Randy posted about what Bayer said its position was. > correct dosage is the answer. > always has been. > Perhaps??????? the dosage for imidacloprid is now correct on certain > problem crops? > Bob, If a chemical company changes the formulation of a registered insecticide, adds a host, or changes the method of deployment they have to request a change in the registration--which goes through a comment period & then is re-evaluated before the chemical is available on a state by state basis. So I get to see a continuous stream of requests for change in registration for pesticides in NY state. (nematicides, fungicides, insecticides, rodenticides, and herbicides) for my reading pleasure. List-servs anyhow!!! Here is a sample of protocol for change with a time frame for reply! New Active Ingredient (AI) --60 days, written notice to applicant Major Change in Labeling (MCL) --60 days, written notice to applicant Special Local Need Registration --60 days, written notice to applicant AI already registered --60 days, written notice to applicant Amended labeling, other than MCL-- 60 days, written notice to applicant Section 18 Emergency Exemption Filed with NYSDEC at least 105 days before decision is needed. 30 days to determine completeness. Some states are not as regulated as NY. I commute to Mi for work with my day job and they are way more relaxed but are still mandated by federal regulations to require reporting in registration changes of pesticides. The research to delineate mixed pesticide effects, much like the realization that homeopathic supplements can effect prescription medicine, or interactions amongst prescription drugs, is wide open with little know. Field studies along these lines (multiple pesticide interactions) will be very difficult to accomplish because of the immensely complicated world we live in. The complexity of who is using what where, how and how much will make field studies difficult & many will not take on the funding of such a nebulous task. Much theoretical work can be done in controlled situations in a lab. Mike ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:25:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] "A Spring Without Bees" In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA3414BA137@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit he "Italian" bee, stops producing brood in late May,...The U.S. bees thus are not feeding heavily in June and July when the heaviest pesticide applications are made, while French bees are." Randy said: Statements such as the above make me question the author's research into the subject, and his conclusions. As far as the above Randy posted I agree as all beekeeping is local . The above is not correct for the deep south, Midwest and upper Midwest. Each of these three vary by around a month. I see the point Michael was trying to make but could be better worded. French beeks have said similar to me fo might be his source. Michael is right on in his research on the CCD survey and the section 18. As I said from my first post Michael has done an excellent job gathering the know facts on the issue and putting in print. His hypothesis on the issue and mine are not exactly alike but his research is extensive and research for a book of this kind is a higher amount than many many bee magazine articles. My reference was to "The Mother of All Field experiments" which starts on page 99 bottom. The hypothesis as presented is easily checked by checking the states with the most reported CCD on the CCD working group survey and then checking the section 18 permits for those states. Did the CCD team check as we did Jerry? I am betting Bayer did. I thought maybe a coincidence until I checked in Canada and found the same coincidence. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:25:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: "A Spring Without Bees" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Beekeepers and others are calling for farmers to stop using chemicals on their crops because of the effect on bees. Meanwhile, governing bodies and consumers are insisting that beekeepers stop putting antibiotics in their hives because of the potential effect on human health. Whose side should I be on? Translated from the Spanish by me: A DISASTER FOR THE BEEKEEPING INDUSTRY Half the hives in the region could disappear January 25, 2009. The director of the Center Apícola Marchamalo (Guadalajara), Angel Sanz, said that 50 percent of the nearly 175,000 beehives in the region could be affected by "Nosema Ceranae," and warned that if left without an adequate treatment, the hives could die. Sanz, told Europa Press, said that beekeepers are in a complex situation, as they have been left without the only drug that stops "CCD" caused by "Nosema Ceranae" after that the European Medicines Agency decided not to allow its manufacture. The head of the Center Apícola argued that in recent years, the number of hives in Castilla-La Mancha has stabilized, because they have replaced the casualties. Without the drug they die "But the problem will come when this year we don't have this medication to deal with this disease. So we should speak of a higher number of dead hives than has been given so far," said Sanz. However, he stressed that it is still premature to assess how the hives are going to be affected by the lack of this product, "because we are in winter, and treatments should be performed at the start of the bees' activity" . The impact of the withdrawal of the drug, he added, will be seen in autumn "when we will be able to find a greater number of casualties because the hives diagnosed with Nosema Ceranae went untreated," he said. According to the head of the Center Apícola, the antibiotic, known as fumagillin, has no set residue limit causing the European Medicines Agency to withdraw it from the market. "The studies to establish this limit can last several years, and therefore, perhaps not until 2010 could we resume the use of this drug," he added. "This could be catastrophic for the industry, because if the hives can not be treated with the approved drug, they will die from the Nosema Ceranae parasite " warned Angel Sanz. UN DESASTRE PARA EL SECTOR APÍCOLA La mitad de las colmenas puede desaparecer en la región 25 de enero de 2009. El director del Centro Apícola de Marchamalo (Guadalajara), Ángel Sanz, afirmó que el 50 por ciento de las casi 175.000 colmenas que existen en la región podrían estar afectadas por el "Nosema Ceranae", y alertó de que si no se tratan en algún momento de su ciclo con el fármaco adecuado, dichas colmenas podrían morir. Sanz, en declaraciones a Europa Press, señaló que los apicultores se encuentran en una situación compleja, pues se han quedado sin el único fármaco que acababa con el "Síndrome del Despoblamiento de Colmenas" entre cuyas causas se encuentra el "Nosema Ceranae", después de que la Agencia Europea del Medicamento decidiese no autorizar su fabricación. El responsable del Centro Apícola defendió que en los últimos años el censo de colmenas en Castilla-La Mancha se ha estabilizado, también porque se han ido reponiendo las bajas. Sin fármaco se mueren "Pero el problema vendrá cuando este año no tengamos este medicamento para afrontar esta enfermedad. Entonces tendríamos que hablar de un número de colmenas muertas más elevado del que se ha dado hasta ahora", dijo Sanz. No obstante, insistió en que aún es prematuro valorar de qué manera se van a haber afectas las colmenas, por la falta de este medicamento, "pues ahora están en periodo invernal, y los tratamientos habría que realizarlos cuando empiece la actividad de las abejas". La repercusión de la retirada de este fármaco, añadió, se verá en otoño "que es cuando podremos encontrar un mayor número de bajas, por no haber tratado las colmenas que tengan diagnosticado el Nosema Ceranae", manifestó. Según explicó el responsable del Centro Apícola, este antibiótico, conocido como fumagilina, no tiene establecido el límite de residuos, criterio que ha esgrimido la Agencia Europea del Medicamento para retirarlo del mercado. "Los estudios para establecer ese límite pueden durar varias años, y por tanto, quizá hasta 2010 no se podría volver a usar ese fármaco", añadió. "Esto podría ser catastrófico para el sector, pues si las colmenas no se pueden tratar con el medicamento autorizado, se van a morir por el parásito del Nosema Ceranae", alertó Ángel Sanz. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 10:07:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >It is my opinion and only a opinion/hypothesis but I believe the maker of > Imidacloprid saw the same pattern several of us did and adjusted the > formula. Although only a hypothesis (and certainly I am unable without the > makers help to substantiate )would explain why we are now seeing healthy > bees in those areas. As Mike Griggs pointed out, changing a formulation requires a lot of hoops to jump through, and generally some degree of public transparency. Anyway, Bob, I did ask the "maker," or more specifically, Dr Dave Fischer whether this occurred. To the best of his knowledge, imidacloprid is still labelled the same old ways. Please note that imidacloprid went off patent, and others are now producing it besides Bayer. It's possible, Bob, that some maker is somehow selling a more benign form of imidacloprid, but not probable. There are more probable scenarios as to why bees are healthier. Again, Bob, if you feel stymied by Bayer "stonewalling," I am more than happy by virtue of my being a member of the Working Group, to ask your questions directly to a Bayer representative. You can believe their answers or not, but to date I have absolutely no reason to suspect that any answer they have given me is in error. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:03:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: kurt Subject: NYC beekeeping In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I kept bees in NYC for about 7 years - defiantly, I guess. I didn't even know it was illegal until a couple years into it. Now I've lost my rooftop access - so this spring I moved them upstate. I used to think it would be a great to have a NYC beekeeping group, but didn't know how to find any other beeks. Now I know there's a NYC group, but I still don't know how to find the meet-ups! Anyone wanna fill me in? I promise I'm not a cop! Moving my bees has re-ignited my need to read about and talk about bees. While only 2 hours drive away, they are in a very different environment. My local bee club (in the Catskills) meets when I generally have to be in the city... Luckily, one of my neighbors there kept about 100 hives for years in the same valley, and has proven to be a very valuable resource. cheers, Kurt >> This weekend I visited with Jim Fisher's NY City >> beekeeping group. > > I did stop to wonder about a NYC beekeeping club since it's > illegal there. Are these suburban beekeepers or defiant city ones > who openly organize and meet? ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 16:40:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10901271007v2c3b1174h2566620ea9be6b91@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello Randy, > As Mike Griggs pointed out, changing a formulation requires a lot of hoops > to jump through, and generally some degree of public transparency. I am not so sure. Anyway, > Bob, I did ask the "maker," or more specifically, Dr Dave Fischer whether > this occurred. To the best of his knowledge, imidacloprid is still > labelled > the same old ways. It is as we have checked and as we would expect. If the chemical industry has figured out what in its product could be killing or weakening hives and quietly corrected the formula then it would explain to my circle the health of bees in areas of the neonicotinoids. I will again say what I have said many times before. There is absolutely zero doubt imidacloprid at times kills and weakens bee hives. No doubt at all in my circle of beeks minds . The real test in our opinion will come in a couple months when bees move out of Orange. Timek use has almost stopped but the orange industry in their monthly magazine recommends Imadicloprid as the pesticide of choice. For the last 5 or 6 years hives have come out of orange about half strength and too weak to split. Many will build back over time but others will not. Even average Orange crops have not been seen in years (reported to me by Florida commercial beeks & the Florida inspectors). I personally do not care about the past and only the future of beekeeping. You can tell Bayer *if* a dosage change has quietly taken place end of story. All beeks I have spoke with in the U.S. will quickly get off Bayer's case if we feel imidacloprid in our opinion stops killing bees. We feel most of us have lost a huge amount of money because of the neonicotinoids but realize we will never have enough proof to get reimbursed for losses. No lawsuit. We have no "Axe to grind" but only are trying to survive in a tough business environment. Sincerely, Bob Harrison "makes his living from beekeeping" ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:01:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: NYC beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: jah1943@gmail.com on behalf of John Howe Sent: Tue 2009.01.27 19:47 I, not Jim , am the actual founder and organizer of The New York City Beekeeping Meetup.I was at the class which Jim teaches last Sunday , but kept kind of low-key. I'm sorry I didn't meet you, Kurt! At this point, we are all local NYC beekepers or wannabees who flaunt the law (which is "enforced" in a very half-assed way) I keep three hives on my roof in Brooklyn. The URL for the meetup is http://www.meetup.com/nyc-beekeeping-meetup/. Please join us! Regards, John Howe ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:39:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I'd like to express a side note here. Although I poke Bob for what appears to me to be close-mindedness on the neonic issue, I want to be clear to all as to the great respect that I have for him, and that I debate him only in the interest of better understanding of subjects. I listen to everything that Bob says carefully and openly. In this particular case, I have not found that the existing data make a strong case against the neonicotinoids. However, that is a far cry from saying that Bob is wrong in his conclusion that they might cause problems. All it would take to convince me to his argument is supportive additional data. I enjoy debate without acrimony, as a tool for testing ideas. I admire Bob's perseverence and know that anything that he says is for the betterment of the bee industry. Bob, my friend, let me offer a quote that I feel may be appropriate: All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second, it is violently opposed, third, it is accepted as being self-evident. --Arthur Schopenhauer Perhaps in the future we will look back and see how correct your suspicions were. Or perhaps just the opposite. In my opinion, lively informed discussion is a great way to help determine how we should direct our research. Thank you, Bob! And thank you Aaron, for providing this format to discuss the issues that we deal with in beekeeping. Randy Oliver Pensive in California ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 06:09:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: What does weight gain have to do with honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-01/usmc-nbs012609.php is an article on the control of weight. What is interesting is the substance that is a part of the weight regulation system is also associated with sleep regulation. In addition, it is affected by glucose, which may explain why the old folk remedy for insomnia was a tablespoon of honey before going to bed. It also ties in with recent research that HFCS affects appetite suppressors and you eat more than you should if you have HFCS in your diet even if you have high levels of leptin, sold as a weight regulator. The extrapolation is mine so should not be confused with any actual research. Just a logical, but possibly incorrect, observation. But it does tie together nicely. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 07:17:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: NYC beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I, not Jim , am the actual founder and organizer of The New York City >Beekeeping Meetup. I was at the class which Jim teaches last Sunday , but >kept kind of low-key. John, I am sorry that I missed that point. Congratulations on the work you have done. We country folk are easily confused in the big city Pete ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 07:35:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I'd like to express a side note here. I, too, would like to offer my respect for Bob and professional beekeepers everywhere. They have suffered the effects of modern agriculture for decades, and their plight has often been ignored. They are the unsung heroes in the food chain. Often they make life affecting decisions on hunches or incomplete information. They don't have years to wait for answers to the problems facing them now. I have zero respect, however, for non-beekeepers who piece together theories in order to sell books or call attention to themselves. The book in question bases its entire premise on the claim by the "Organic Beekeepers" that they don't have CCD, which was subsequently found to be false. We still don't know what CCD is -- or was -- so how can I tell if I did -- or didn't -- have it? My own definition of CCD is "bees gone, don't know why." Any time somebody had a good explanation for why they were gone, it wasn't CCD. The rampant use of chemicals in our lives simply cannot be a good thing, but we are dependent on them for survival. That's how it is. Happy Chinese New Year pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 08:32:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kirk_Jones?= Subject: take on "spring without bees" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, Bob stopped by our Florida farm on his winter tour with the bee bus and we had a good visit. As a gift, he gave me "Spring without bees", which I was grateful to read.(actually still reading) I would agree with some of the Bee-L posters that it is a tad "over the top" at times with dire forecasts and such. Also I have found that not all the info is appropriate or totally right on. That being said, I wouldn't categorically dismiss the basic premise of the book. That would be a mistake, IMHO. Bob has been the "Lone Ranger" on the neonic/chem company/sick bee issues on this forum for some time and taken some "bullets". In spite of this, he is still riding tall in the saddle on this issue. Read the book with an open mind and cut a little slack to the author. Be open to the possibilities of neonic's possible relationship to sick bees. How many times did the Tobacco industry mislead the public about the dangers of nicotine and other harmful ingredients in cigs? ? They paraded out "scientists" to refute the health issues for decades. All in all, Randy kind of summed up how I view the ongoing debate. Let's keep open minds and pursue the truth. Tonto....aka Kirk www.sleepingbearfarms.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 05:59:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: "A Spring Without Bees" In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10901272039w4e751b12o1d975faf3c1f1654@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Thanks for the kind words Randy! I am sure you remember back on BEE-L when I suggested to write beekeeping articles. I could tell even then from the depth and detail in your posts you had the same talent I have been told by many beeks I have which is to take what researchers tell us and be able to explain to beekeepers what researchers are saying in a way those beeks can understand. U.S. beekeeping really needed Randy Oliver at the time. You have got the ear of the most powerful of U.S. beekeepers. Beekeepers bring up your articles in conversation all the time. Which tells me those beekeepers are reading your articles. U.S. beekeeping seems to be healthy right now which allows Bob Harrison to return to his bees and research. However I am stopped by ice in my trek north but roads should clear in a day or two. I also want to thank Aaron for BEE-L and even trashing my posts which Aaron feels might offend others on the list. Randy let me offer a quote I feel may be appropriate, "Success is found in not only what we achieve but in what we try to achieve" Sincerely, Bob Harrison ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:13:35 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Partial ban on Neonicotinoids by One major Food Retailer in the UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi There may be some interest in this action taken by the Cooperative Group in Britain to temporarily ban the use of 8 named neonicotinoid pesticides in crops used for its own brand food: http://www.co-operative.coop/ethicsinaction/takeaction/planbee/what-The-Co-o perative-is-doing-for-bees/ The Cooperative is Britain's fifth largest food retailer, with 8% of the market and over 3,000 outlets. It also farms over 70,000 acres of land, making it the largest farmer in the UK Here is slant immediately put on the action by one left leaning UK newspaper: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jan/28/bees-coop-pesticide Regards Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorkshire UK ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:22:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: A Spring Without Bees" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding Randys comments of Bob, as well as Bobs on Randys, and both about Aaron, I must say I agree with them all-close to verbatim. I do feel that Randy has made every effort to maintain a neutral point of view, although I do miss some of his well aimed wisecracks, because: "A merry heart doeth good like a medicine." John Horton ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:01:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: New Year in New York In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pete wrote: My NewYear's resolution is to try to keep to more popular topics and to > encourage beginners and the chronically inquisitive to ask questions. Pete, this is the Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology. This is not a forum for beginners. This forum is a place where beginners and others can be voyeurs, and listen to Informed Discussion of esoterica. Or even join in. There are other lists for beginners. Pete, please continue with the esoterica. Your posts stretch our thinking. This is the place to do so. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 13:25:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: A Spring Without Bees" In-Reply-To: <005a01c98164$a12af6f0$6cbb4d0c@greenbripi7wfd> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem with threads like this is the bubble is quickly lost. Most of us have an issue with the premise that CCD is caused by Imid/pesticides, and that is what elicits the response - that they are not linked. I do not think anyone would dismiss any pesticide as having the capacity to kill bees, so if the issue is limited to that point, you can have discussion. That is the area that it seems Randy and Jerry are in talking with Bayer. And all are talking and it appears that the discussions are amicable. It is when you make the leap to CCD, which is still in the investigation mode, that problems arise, ergo, "A Spring without Bees". Comment on the book was asked for and comment was received. Unfortunately there are beekeepers who insist on coupling Imid/pesticides with CCD but their evidence is anecdotal and not backed by good science. I have found that beekeepers are fairly unanimous when pesticides do cause bee kills. A while back there was that kind of response to encapsulated pesticides that resulted in major bee kills. What is interesting about this issue is the non-uniformity of response. My guess is, if it had not been overly hyped as causing CCD by some beekeepers on national television, but that a pesticide problem existed and allowed a measured response, this might have been a very different discussion. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:24:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Bees counting ability MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Using a y-maze, we found that bees can not only differentiate between patterns containing two and three elements, but can also use this prior knowledge to differentiate three from four, without any additional training. However, bees trained on the two versus three task could not distinguish between higher numbers, such as four versus five, four versus six, or five versus six. Control experiments confirmed that the bees were not using cues such as the colour of the exact configuration of the visual elements, the combined area or edge length of the elements, or illusory contours formed by the elements. To our knowledge, this is the first report of number-based visual generalisation by an invertebrate." http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0004263 Practical applications as to marking of hives, etc??? Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 14:49:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe Subject: beginners and esoterica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pete and Randy: I think the lisstserve does quite well by beginners, if I think about it. When I was a beginner, whenever I sought help from Bee-L I got plenty of friendly non-condescending advise. Many beginners may be put off by the esoterica; I STILL find topics way over my head after 7 years of beekeeping and have left the listserve several times in frustration just over the sheer VOLUME of esoterica, but I always come back. But to all the newbees out there who may feel intimidated, I encourage you to jump in, no matter how naive you may feel. And Pete, DON'T stop with the esoteric dialogue. You guys are doing a great job as is and such a forum is necessary. By the way, Randy mentioned other forums for help for beginners if Bee-L is too much for them. I find the bee-commerce web site a good place to start with basic bee questions for newbees. They will talk over the phone or by email which they answer promptly and are very patient. And they don't try to sell you things either .http://www.bee-commerce.com/contact.aspx. Ask for Leslie. She is the new owner and very nice. Best regards, John Howe New York City Beekeeping Meetup ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:50:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: "A Spring Without Bees" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill T wrote: > It is when you make the leap to CCD, which is still in the investigation mode, that problems arise, ergo, "A Spring without Bees". Not only does the author attempt to build up a case that CCD = IMD (imidacloprid), but he systematically attempts to undermine the credibility of anyone who doubts the connection. He writes that Dr. Pettis of the USDA says that if CCD is caused by a virus, there isn't much we can do about that. Then Schacker rephrases it like this: > The beekeepers would thus have to learn how to cope with ever-increasing uses of IMD while the government-industry line would be "it's a virus, there's nothing we can do." In the book, he has Pettis saying that CCD cannot be connected to pesticides, that the science is inconclusive. "It's one myth. We can't make the connection to disorientation," Pettis says. Pettis states plainly that he thinks the answer lies in bee management issues. Schacker mentions that Dennis van Englesdorp also does not believe in the IMD CCD connection. Then he tries to undermine Dennis and Penn State by saying that Bayer has its headquarters in Pennsylvania and has "very close ties to Penn State." > Bayer CropScience meanwhile integrates itself with the agricultural school, especially the Turfgrass Center and the Pesticide Research Lab. All this time, there has been no funded study by the Penn State CCD Working Group to see if IMD cause disorientation. The implication being that Pettis and Penn State are somehow in cahoots with Bayer. In his scenario only real beekeepers like Jim Doan have the guts to go before congress and tell the IMD story. He contrasts that brave act with the "weasel words" of Maryanne Frazier: > "We are finding a number of things, but we don't know how they are yet connected to the CCD situation." What else can she say? She works at Penn State and probably gets an annual wall calendar from Bayer. Schacker writes: > Are studies and interpretations of data on IMD by Penn State being influenced by a reluctance to go up against Bayer? The CCD Working Group would no doubt respond "absolutely not". Schacker goes on to say that the group has suppressed the French report which has all the proof we need. Unfortunately, it's in French so who knows what it says. Comité Scientifique et Technique de l'Etude Multifactorielle des Troubles des Abeilles (CST) Imidaclopride utilisé en enrobage de semences (Gaucho(R)) et troubles des abeilles Rapport final http://agriculture.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/rapportfin.pdf It's a conspiracy, of course. Schacker writes: > The chemical industry lobbyists have been given the key to the regulatory candy store, the EPA is politicized and compromised, the USDA is focusing on natural causes rather than man made ones, the universities have been privatized by chemical industry "largesse", the growers are mesmerized by the pesticide salesmen, and all the while the bees keep dying. Even the democrats in Congress have been led off the trail by scientific witnesses. If that doesn't scare you, read Chapter Nine: "Civilization Collapse Disorder" > the threat of a collapse of our own human hive is now so real -- and perhaps not far away. The missing bees truly appear as the beginning of the apocalyptic futures depicted in science fiction movies. There's a movie in it, I am certain. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 20:48:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: International Bee Protection Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The ICP-BR (International Commission for Plant Bee Relationships) Bee Protection Group held its first meeting in Wageningen in 1980 and over the subsequent 25 years has become the established expert forum for addressing the risk of pesticides to bees. In 2005 the ninth meeting was held at the Central Science Laboratory, York, and the papers in this issue are the output from this meeting. Concerns over colony losses and reduced honey yields have been raised in France over a number of years and a large-scale field survey has been conducted to identify possible causes. To assess the role of pesticides, samples of bees, pollen, honey and wax have been collected from apiaries distributed over five departments and the results for the pesticide analysis of the wax samples are reported in this issue. Any contamination found within the hives needs to be considered alongside other relevant factors, for example food availability, environmental pollution, disease and other factors. Large honey bee losses were also reported in Germany over the winter of 2002/2003 and a symposium has been held by the Federal Office of Consumer Protection and Food Safety (BVL) in 2004. In many cases pesticides (notably imidacloprid) had been blamed for these losses, but no evidence for this was identified. A number of potentially relevant factors have been identified, however, including climate, forage availability, bee health, timing of Varroa control and pesticides (particularly with respect to applications in maize and sunflowers). It is recognised that long-term monitoring is needed to clarify and confirm the causes and that a range of factors need to be assessed from a large number of bee colonies located at apiaries situated in a range of landscapes, preferably across the EU. This must involve cooperation between beekeepers, farmers, bee institutes and industry. Working groups will present their findings for consideration by the next (10th) symposium of the ICP-BR Bee Protection Group to be held in 2008 and their recommendations are expected to be incorporated into EU regulatory risk assessments aimed at minimising the impact of pesticides on bees. In Focus: Pesticides and honeybees – the work of the ICP-BR Bee Protection Group Pest Management Science. 63:1047–1050 (2007) * * * The question of bee mortality and these pesticides was discussed at a recent meeting and at the 10th International Symposium of the International Commission for Plant-Bee Relationships on Hazards of Pesticides to Bees on 8-10 October 2008. At present there is no evidence that the approvals need to be amended on the crops and at the rates used in the UK, but we will continue to keep the situation under review. In addition, the Government's wildlife incident investigation scheme reviewed a number of bee deaths reported to it this summer. No neonicotinoid pesticides were detected during analysis of the bee bodies. At this point in time there is no evidence to suggest that reported losses of UK honeybee colonies are related to pesticide applications (see response to PQ 5369 07/08). Consequently the Secretary of State has not asked either PSD or the ACP to investigate these reports. Reports of colony losses are being investigated as a high priority, and there may be a number of factors involved. Additional funds of £120,000 (£90,000 from DEFRA and £30,000 from the Welsh Assembly Government) have been allocated to the National Bee Unit to expand the investigations they started last year into significant bee losses and to meet the demand for increased inspections of bee imports. Huw Irranca-Davies House of Commons Hansard, Daily Debates 29 Oct 2008 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * *******************************************************