From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:06:48 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.1 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0787F48FD8 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3YWb017258 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:36 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0902C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 151949 Lines: 3465 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 06:31:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gotham City Beekeepers Organization: Gotham City Beekeepers Cooperative Subject: Re: NYC beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When did New York drop its beekeeping ordinance? No one seems to know when, and no one admits to being the one who did it. This is a big reason why legalization is turning out to be relatively easy. http://GothamCityBees.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 09:00:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >How toxic to bees is HMF? They must have been exposed to it in low doses > forever. Hi Chris, HMF must get up to the 100-150ppm range for noticable toxicity. I would guess (but no supportive data) that it would form in the honey just under the lid in areas with hot-long summers. HFCS can easily exceed the above levels if mishandled. Even after the "big scare" in Calif, when the manufacturers were acutely aware of the problem, I purchased a sample of HFCS/sucrose blend, freshly mixed, that already was at 40ppm by test! Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 16:51:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10902150900k7a60c13dn81898785ca393e38@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the "two brood cycles"=A0duration = eating Megabee=A0before crashing.=A0 Given the artificial environment of a = greenhouse, I'm wonder what finally wore them down and what was, if anythin= g, connected to the artificial diet. =A0 Grant Jackson, MO =A0 =A0=0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 19:06:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards In-Reply-To: <900778.45568.qm@web110704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I'm wonder what finally wore them down and what was, if anything, connected to the artificial diet. Hi Grant, Nurse bees will dig into their body reserves to supply critical nutrients to the brood. This is especially true for sterols, esp 24-methylene cholesterol. Research has shown that their reserves are good for a couples of brood cycles (can't cite off the top of my head). My guess, and it's only a guess, is that the colonies ran out of a critical nutrient, that was supplied by the beebread that cured the problem.bread. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 07:33:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Joe_Lewis?= Subject: HMF ppm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Notes from a presentation at the 2008 Sacramento beek convention: Research on using HFCS – when heated to 104 degrees F for as much as 10 days, HFCS may produce about 50 ppm of HMF. Bees may not detect it at this level, consume it and die. Researchers believe that when significantly above 50 ppm bees may detect the HMF and probably will not consume it. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 08:46:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: HFCS (was candy Boards-add pollen supplement ? for Randy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy wrote: Hi John, I was just checking to see if anyone was paying attention : ) > Randy, seeing as how I just got back from a seminar that included beenutrition(by a PHD who is rightly regarded as qualifiied and competent) and have never heard of a 2 brood cycle max for pollen supplements , well smoke was pouring off of my back wheels as I put her in reverse & reread what you had said. I was thinking of using a well known pollen supplement as a cell rearing stimulant seeing as it had "all the 10 major type proteins necessary for complete bee nutrition" I am not quite as eager to do so now. I think many of these protein supplements do what they are supposed to in stimulating brood production and are great products, but your comment about 2 brood cycles being the max you can raise on pollen supplement alone makes it clear that we havent arrived. Thanks for making your observations known Randy, you have done it in a way that has not disparaged anyone and yet has given a vital "other side of the coin" that I am sure will add vigour to bee nutritionist's research. John Horton ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:50:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: HFCS (was candy Boards-add pollen supplement ? for Randy In-Reply-To: <002601c99045$4fca7020$c4bb4d0c@greenbripi7wfd> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>>>but your comment about 2 brood cycles being the max you can raise on pollen supplement<<<<<< Having just come from some of the biggest pollinators in the country, who are using supplements in 1 1/2 lb patties ...4X a year, and have colonies boiling with bees, I suggest a little caution re: Randys comments. Bees don't do well in greenhouses so any number of things could be at play in this totally unnatural environment. Supplements are just that; supplements aren't replacements. It was a small study, I think. It isn't something I want to take to the bank. Randy. Don't you think maybe some are taking an offhand comment and going too far with it? Dick Marron ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 09:22:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards-add pollen supplement ? for Randy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I was thinking of using a well known pollen supplement as a cell rearing > stimulant seeing as it had "all the 10 major type proteins necessary for > complete bee nutrition" I am not quite as eager to do so now. Supplements are not recommended for use in queen rearing,, at least according to Steve Tabor. Pure pollen is what is recommended, although some tell me they use supplements with apparent good results. A caveat, though: I have purchased cells from queen producers with good reputations and found the cells came *nowhere* near our own standards for feed in the cell and size, so when it comes to queens be careful what you believe and who you trust. I'd trust Steve Tabor's advice on that point until I had a chance to do a limited test. I don't know of any supplement that does not offer "all the 10 major type proteins necessary for complete bee nutrition". Unfortunately that is not all there is to it. The picture is much more complex, and the history of the bees being fed as well as any other food sources contributing while feeding confound the issue. > I think many of these protein supplements do what they are supposed to in > stimulating brood production and are great products, Personally, I think the emphasis on brood production causes people to miss the point entirely. Brood production is a desirable end in itself, but is a *symptom* of bee health and the nutritional picture. To me the goal of feeding is to enhance bee health *overall*. Enhancing bee health on a continuous basis results in a better chance of achieving all the other goals we seek, and that should be the goal of supplemental feeding. > but your comment about 2 brood cycles being the max you can raise on > pollen supplement alone makes it clear that we havent arrived. This has always been a problem with supplementation. Whenever it has seemed that that limit has been exceeded, it has been found that the bees were somehow enhancing the feed, either from their own bodies, from stores, or from the environment. allen ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 09:33:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 15/02/2009 17:26:15 GMT Standard Time, randy@RANDYOLIVER.COM writes: I purchased a sample of HFCS/sucrose blend, freshly mixed, that already was at 40ppm by test! How did you conduct the test? Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 09:42:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: HMF ppm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marion Ellis writes: "Feeding bees syrup or honey with high HMF levels causes dysentery and reduces the longevity of colony members. Low levels are tolerated well. High levels cause the problems.If you want more information, consult recent papers by Rob Currie, University of Manitoba, on HMF in heat-damaged sugar syrup and its effects on honey bees." Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 08:04:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards-add pollen supplement ? for Randy In-Reply-To: <002601c99045$4fca7020$c4bb4d0c@greenbripi7wfd> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I was thinking of using a well known pollen supplement as a cell rearing > stimulant seeing as it had "all the 10 major type proteins necessary for > complete bee nutrition" Hi John, just for clarification, proteins are made from amino acids, and certain amino acids are called "essential amino acids" for a particular species, since they cannot create proteins without them. Dr. DeGroot identified 10 essential amino acids for bees. On one major suppliers website, they are listed, but not as DeGroot listed them. He listed their necessary percentages relative to tryptophan, which he set at a value of 1. I suggested to a major bee nutritionist some time ago that queen cell starters would be a fasttrack way of testing pollen substitutes. The common wisdom is that you need natural pollen. However, I recently spoke with a queen producer who got great results with a home brew formula. I plan to test this myself in a month. Please note that it may only take a small amount of natural pollen, gathered by the foragers, to allow bees to use a supplement efficiently. Indeed, in the Bakersfield trial, MegaBee outperformed natural pollen alone . In that trial, there would have been a scant amount of natural pollen available, but it was apparently enough to supplement the MegaBee. Unfortunately, the report of this trial was Bowdlerized, since a major manufacturer didn't want to have their name mentioned (JAR 47(4):265). So the tested formulas are not named, nor the ingredients mentioned. I'm surprised that it even got published! Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 08:43:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards-add pollen supplement ? for Randy In-Reply-To: <001701c9904e$579dfbb0$06d9f310$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >Randy. Don't you think maybe some are taking an offhand comment and going > too far with it? I'm sorry if I was unclear, Dick! I had posted the result of a controlled trial at a government lab. The fact that the addition of beebread reversed the decline of the colonies suggests that the problem was due to inadequate nutrition. >but your comment about 2 brood cycles being the max you can raise on pollen supplement The above quote was extrapolated from my post--they are not my words. Howver, although the two brood cycle number should certainly not be set in stone, it is in the ballpark of several older trials of supplements by pioneers in bee nutrition, such as Haydak, Herbert, and Shimanuki. I also am not implying in any way that the feeding of pollen supplements is anything but highly effective. You might wish to read my four "Fat Bees" articles to that effect. I use pollen supplements to great effect in my own operation, and know of any number of commercial beekeepers who do the same. Indeed, I would attribute many of the strong colonies in almond pollination at the moment to supplemental feeding. Dr Frank Eischen had documented the benefits of feeding protein to parasite-infected colonies, as I mentioned in my current article in ABJ. There is a large difference between saying that a pollen supplement is not a complete *substitute* for pollen, and saying that they are not worthwhile. I apologize again if I was unclear. In most circumstances, pollen *supplements* act as just that--supplements that augment the natural pollen gathered by foragers. As our supplement formulas improve, we are close to creating pollen *substitutes.* Some of the best now appear to be able to provide the bulk of colony nutrition, and only need to be supplemented with a small amount of natural pollen. Thank you, Dick, for suggesting a clarification. I have enjoyed the tone of discussion on the List of late. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:14:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Bees in Brazil and Muscardine Disease Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, Seeking information concerning muscardine disease in bees, or perhaps it may be known as green muscardine disease. What is the cause, and how bees are affected. As best I can estimate the time, in the 1860’s or maybe early 1870’s there were reports that stated ‘nearly all the bees died’ in Brazil from a sickness called muscardine, which is said to be caused by a fungus. All I have been able to find are brief descriptions of the event, but I am really after specific dates and more detailed descriptions concerning the disease and the bee mortality in Brazil. Thanks! Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:32:31 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Bees as Livestock Comments: cc: rcramer@montana.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, here's what I hope may be a fun challenge for the LIST - put on your thinking caps: Are bees LIVESTOCK? And, do bees benefit LIVESTOCK? In the Forgotten Pollinators, the authors term bees Lilliputian Livestock. McGregor also lists bees and the clover, etc. that they pollinate, which in turn benefits the feed for livestock like cattle, in his calculations leading to the statement that bees have a role in pollinating about 1/3 of what we eat. Now, I know that most statistical services (Fed and State) list bees with LIVESTOCK, and many city ordinances talk about livestock (whether you can/cannot keep in the city limits) and include bees. But, how strong a case can we make FOR bees as LIVESTOCK and as being Beneficial to LIVESTOCK like cattle, sheep, pigs, poultry? AND, conversely, can we make a case AGAINST bees as LIVESTOCK or being BENEFICIAL to LIVESTOCK? THanks Jerry **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 09:32:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >How did you conduct the [HFCS] test? I sent it to a lab for analysis. The syrup was a light straw color, with no noticeable bitter taste. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:47:56 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The HFCS lab test is relatively simple, compared to many. When we tested for HMF and for Aflatoxins, we didn't see any good correlation between appearance and quality. We did find, and some beekeepers have not liked us saying this, that although there were problems reported with bad batches of HFCS from suppliers, we also found examples of layering in beekeeper tanks -probably because each batch of HFCS was dumped on top of the remains of previous batches. Honest beekeepers, who admitted to keeping syrup from the previous year, those with tanks as outside storage, tanks under a lean to, or even inside on the south side of a metal warehouse against the sun - and lots of containers in CA out in fields getting hot, often had elevated HMF. We also found beekeepers with metal tanks on trucks and heaters in the tanks to make the syrup flow faster - and yes, not surprisingly, the HMF levels were elevated. HMF is catalyzed by metal, and the reaction is temperature driven. Does that mean that syrup from the distributor may not have gone bad? No. Does it mean that every beekeeper has an HMF problem? Again, No. BUT, like it or not, it does mean that beekeepers have to exercise caution handling and storing this product. Metal, heat, and especially metal plus heat are a bad combination. And, new batches should be placed in clean, empty tanks, NOT dumped on old syrup. Jerry **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:53:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Bees as Livestock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think this s a GREAT question, as it is so thought provoking! Once upon a time I would have answered unequivocally no. they are = "housed" feral insects. However, as things have come to be (and I spent = the afternoon cleaning up deadouts at the first of many yards to go), = I'm inclined to answer the question with a question. Will bees survive = without beekeeper intervention? I cleaned up many a deadout where I HAD = to ask, and could not answer, "Why did this hive die?" I had cases of = starvation, and I had cases of tell tale Varroa corpses on the bottom = board, and overwhelmingly I had to blame PPBP (piss poor beekeeping = practices) and lamented that if I had the time to tend my hives so I = could address last August the obvious problems I'm seeing this February, = I would not be dealing with so many deadouts. As such, I have to say unequivocally, "Yes, bees are livestock!" Aaron Morris - think too many avertable deadouts! ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:21:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Bees as Livestock In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bees as LIVESTOCK I would say yes they can be transported rented sold and reproduced. Do bees benefit LIVESTOCK Yes more than we realize through pollination of grass seed wild and harvested hay of all kinds. A lot of bag feed use hay in the mix for most live stock including fish food. Harper's Honey Farm Charles Harper charlie@russianbreeder.org labeeman@russianbreeder.com (337) 298 6261 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 16:54:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Bees as Livestock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+livestock&btnG=Google+Search&meta= http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+animal&meta= ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 19:02:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Bees as livestock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's the Wiki version: To be considered domesticated, a population of animals must have their behavior , life cycle , or physiology systemically altered as a result of being under human control for many generations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_animals Domestication of wild bees. At some point humans began to domesticate wild bees in artificial hives made from hollow logs, wooden boxes, pottery vessels, and woven straw baskets or "skeps." The domestication of bees was well developed in Egypt and sealed pots of honey were found in the grave goods of Pharaohs such as Tutankhamun . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beekeeping#Domestication_of_wild_bees Dick Marron ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 20:42:24 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Bees as Livestock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/02/2009 22:37:40 GMT Standard Time, BeeResearch@AOL.COM writes: Are bees LIVESTOCK? And, do bees benefit LIVESTOCK? Unless your colony dies you have livestock. Anyone who has livestock has deadstock from time to time. Does the definition of LIVESTOCK include only those beasts to which somebody can claim ownership and maybe pay taxes, or does it include the way our planet is stocked with living creatures? Aside from the bees providing, through pollination, a proportion of the food we eat directly and, through animal fodder, that which we eat indirectly (unless Vegans, and Vega is a long way away(25 light years)), every bee eventually provides food for other living creatures. I have seen lizards and toads on alighting boards. Insectivorous birds prey on them directly as do rodents. Those that die of old age and fall to the ground unnoticed enter the food chain through the action of fungi etc, maybe contributing marginally to the fertility of the soil that feeds us. My answer to both your questions is 'Yes'. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 20:20:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: HFCS (was candy Boards-add pollen supplement ? for Randy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I should have written 10 "amino acids"..not "proteins"... in my email as Randy correction points. While it did not change the logic or conclusions it was incorrect. Thanks John Horton ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 22:18:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Clyde Caldwell Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards-add pollen supplement ? for Randy In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10902160804r67b6e78cx2a90cced3a510052@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Have been reading the post on BEE-L for a few months now and find it ver= y interesting. I'm in search for the 10 major essential amino acids necessa= ry for complete bee nutrition. I went to the archives and no match. Would s= omeone direct me to that information. Thanks=2C =20 Clyde> Date: Mon=2C 16 Feb 2009 08:04:08 -0800> From: randy@RANDY= OLIVER.COM> Subject: Re: [BEE-L] HFCS (was candy Boards-add pollen suppleme= nt ? for Randy> To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu> > > >I was thinking of using= a well known pollen supplement as a cell rearing> > stimulant seeing as it= had "all the 10 major type proteins necessary for> > complete bee nutritio= n"> > > Hi John=2C just for clarification=2C proteins are made from amino a= cids=2C and> certain amino acids are called "essential amino acids" for a p= articular> species=2C since they cannot create proteins without them. Dr. D= eGroot> identified 10 essential amino acids for bees.> > On one major suppl= iers website=2C they are listed=2C but not as DeGroot listed> them. He list= ed their necessary percentages relative to tryptophan=2C which> he set at a= value of 1.> > I suggested to a major bee nutritionist some time ago that = queen cell> starters would be a fasttrack way of testing pollen substitutes= . The common> wisdom is that you need natural pollen. However=2C I recently= spoke with a> queen producer who got great results with a home brew formul= a. I plan to> test this myself in a month.> > Please note that it may only = take a small amount of natural pollen=2C gathered> by the foragers=2C to al= low bees to use a supplement efficiently. Indeed=2C in> the Bakersfield tri= al=2C MegaBee outperformed natural pollen alone . In that> trial=2C there w= ould have been a scant amount of natural pollen available=2C but> it was ap= parently enough to supplement the MegaBee.> > Unfortunately=2C the report o= f this trial was Bowdlerized=2C since a major> manufacturer didn't want to = have their name mentioned (JAR 47(4):265). So> the tested formulas are not = named=2C nor the ingredients mentioned. I'm> surprised that it even got pub= lished!> > Randy Oliver> > ************************************************= *******> * Search the BEE-L archives at: *> * http://listserv.albany.edu:80= 80/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *> ***********************************************= ******** _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.=20 http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_022009= ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 00:13:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jerry & All, First let me say that HFCS is crap and contains Mercury and two poisons which by their self kill bees. The health food people see HFCS for what it is. If I see a product contains HFCS I do not buy. For breakfast I like Thomas Muffins which have this on the front of the package: Contains no HFCS! Those which drink regular Pepsi & Coca cola are drinking carbonated HFCS with a cola flavor! Yuk! That said let me share what myself and Bell Honey use for bee feed. We no longer use HFCS do to problems (other than HMF's ) and use 67.5 BRIX sucrose. We are an hour and a half from the plant. We do not store sucrose other than maybe for a week. Never let sit in the sun other than when in the yard feeding. If sitting outside during the day I cover the totes on the truck with a tarp to prevent the sun reaching the tote while sitting on the truck. When we pick up the sucrose the plant gives us the PH and temp. The last load was 92 F. and a PH of 7.2.( you might have to ask for the readings) I pumped feed today and will pump the rest tomorrow so I do have a small tank heater in the tote tonight but the temp is below freezing outside so the temp in the tote most likely will only be maybe 60F. in the morning. We changed our ways after Dr. Eric Mussen gave a talk at the Missouri State Beekeepers meeting about storing HFCS & sucrose. In our opinion ( after using the method above instead of getting tanker loads and storing at the bee farm) the extra fuel cost and time involved in going and picking the syrup up is well worth the insurance we will not be feeding a sub par product. The beeks with the best bees are paying attention to small details these days in our opinion. I realize many are too far from a plant to do as we do but in many parts of Texas, Florida and California the above is possible, We figure the feed we need and pickup. we have picked up 8 275 gallon totes at a time. We like getting directly from the plant as most of the bee supply houses use the metal tanks. We always used (even with HFCS) 1500 gallon plastic tanks or 275 gallon totes. For hobby beeks my advice is to buy table sugar and only mix what you need and only use the heat needed to get into solution. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:13:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards-add pollen supplement ? for Randy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >I'm in search for the 10 major essential amino acids necessary for > complete bee nutrition. Hi Clyde, As I mentioned previously, DeGroot's percentages are all relative to the amount of tryptophan, not as a percentage of the total diet (from DeGroot 1953). Threonine 3.0 Valine 4.0 Methionine 1.5 Isoleucine 4.0 Leucine 4.5 Phenylalanine 1.5 Histidine 1.5 Lysine 3.0 Arginine 3.0 Tryptophan 1.0 Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:50:35 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: De Groots percentages (was HFCS (was candy Boards-add pollen supplement ? for Randy) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy wrote > As I mentioned previously, DeGroot's percentages are all relative to the > amount of tryptophan, not as a percentage of the total diet (from DeGroot > 1953). I have seen and used these figures for years now but every so often I ask the question has anyone ever done work to verify De Groot's figures? With our modern day technology is it something that should be done? They may turn out to be correct but I would like some verification to make sure I am on the right track. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 07:36:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Claudia and Jimmy Brooks Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards In-Reply-To: <6C3429F8AAD54098BA427FFF4CAAF7A6@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is what I have been waiting for.... What to feed how about the megabee= are they ok =20 =20 =20 > Date: Tue=2C 17 Feb 2009 00:13:09 -0600> From: busybeeacres@HUGHES.NET> S= ubject: Re: [BEE-L] HFCS (was candy Boards> To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu> = > Hello Jerry & All=2C> First let me say that HFCS is crap and contains Mer= cury and two poisons> which by their self kill bees. The health food people= see HFCS for what it> is. If I see a product contains HFCS I do not buy.> = For breakfast I like Thomas Muffins which have this on the front of the> pa= ckage:> Contains no HFCS!> Those which drink regular Pepsi & Coca cola are = drinking carbonated HFCS> with a cola flavor! Yuk!> > That said let me shar= e what myself and Bell Honey use for bee feed.> > We no longer use HFCS do = to problems (other than HMF's ) and use 67.5 BRIX> sucrose. We are an hour = and a half from the plant. We do not store sucrose> other than maybe for a = week. Never let sit in the sun other than when in the> yard feeding.> > If = sitting outside during the day I cover the totes on the truck with a> tarp = to prevent the sun reaching the tote while sitting on the truck.> > When we= pick up the sucrose the plant gives us the PH and temp. The last> load was= 92 F. and a PH of 7.2.( you might have to ask for the readings)> > I pumpe= d feed today and will pump the rest tomorrow so I do have a small> tank hea= ter in the tote tonight but the temp is below freezing outside so> the temp= in the tote most likely will only be maybe 60F. in the morning.> > We chan= ged our ways after Dr. Eric Mussen gave a talk at the Missouri State> Beeke= epers meeting about storing HFCS & sucrose. In our opinion ( after> using t= he method above instead of getting tanker loads and storing at the> bee far= m) the extra fuel cost and time involved in going and picking the> syrup up= is well worth the insurance we will not be feeding a sub par> product.> > = The beeks with the best bees are paying attention to small details these> d= ays in our opinion.> > I realize many are too far from a plant to do as we = do but in many parts of> Texas=2C Florida and California the above is possi= ble=2C We figure the feed we> need and pickup. we have picked up 8 275 gall= on totes at a time.> > We like getting directly from the plant as most of t= he bee supply houses use> the metal tanks. We always used (even with HFCS) = 1500 gallon plastic tanks> or 275 gallon totes.> > For hobby beeks my advic= e is to buy table sugar and only mix what you need> and only use the heat n= eeded to get into solution.> > bob> > *************************************= ******************> * Search the BEE-L archives at: *> * http://listserv.al= bany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l *> ************************************= ******************* _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync.=20 http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_022009= ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:22:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Bees as livestock In-Reply-To: <000601c99093$0594cd40$10be67c0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To be considered domesticated, We had a fairly lively discussion on this some time ago. But the question is livestock. What is interesting about this is if bees are considered livestock, that implies some control over the livestock by the owner. My guess is that if bees were classified as such, the beekeeper would be libel for every person stung by their bees. So I would not be too anxious about showing how "domesticated" our bees are. The law is currently on our side. "The common law recognizes two general classes of animals -- wild and domestic. Animals such as farm livestock that are ordinarily harmless to people are classified as domestic animals. Ownership of domestic animals carries certain legal liabilities." Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:35:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ralph Harrison Subject: Bees as livestock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in Connecticut bees are considered livestock by definition of the Connecticut General Statues Section 1-1(q) **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:31:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Center for Science in the Public Interest, a consumer group in Washington, D.C., has challenged many sweeteners in the past. But the group says "there isn't a shred of evidence that high-fructose corn syrup is any more harmful (or healthier) than sugar." "There's very little chemical difference between these two sweeteners, and there's no reason to be more afraid of high-fructose corn syrup than regular table sweetener," said David Schardt, the center's senior nutritionist. As WebMD points out, the report "doesn't prove that the mercury in the tested products came from high-fructose corn syrup." Even the researchers who did the study say they can't advise consumers to change their diet based on this initial finding. Consumer Reports says these studies "are cause for concern" because even low levels of mercury exposure can be unsafe. But the editors say "the total health impact remains unclear, and the studies pose more questions than answers." ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:41:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: Bees as livestock In-Reply-To: <000601c99093$0594cd40$10be67c0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dick Marron answered the question of whether bees are "livestock" with the = definition of "domestication" and appears to argue that the mere housing of= bees in artificial hives (wood boxes, skeps, etc) is sufficient evidence o= f having had their behavior or lifecycle changed.=A0=20 =A0 That's a reasonable argument but as a counter-argument, I would point to th= e birds in my backyard.=A0 They live in a series of artificial birdhouses b= uilt by my sons.=A0 I care for them, I feed them and I benefit from their p= resence=A0in my yard/neighborhood but they can not be considered either liv= estock nor domesticated.=A0 (I'll grant that it's not a perfect analogy bec= ause they don't live in them year-round but arguably neither do my bees sin= ce I'm not sure that I'm very good at controlling swarming.) =A0 I think that=A0Dick's cited=A0definition of domestication is insufficient.= =A0=A0My first pass at a clarification postulated that domestication includ= e a change in behavior such that life without continuing human support is n= o longer possible.=A0 A modern milk cow, for example, is in tangible distre= ss if not actively managed and milked regularly.=A0 Even with varroa, CCD a= nd other threats, I'm not sure that bees meet that standard.=A0 Regardless,= that definition also fails because it precludes the possibility of a curre= ntly domesticated animal reverting to a feral behavior such as a dog or cat= might when abandoned.=A0 It leaves me wondering whether domestication is a= s well understood as we like to pretend and wondering whether it is a usefu= l proxy for the definition of livestock. =A0 Thinking about it from a different direction, I believe that "livestock" ca= rries a strong connotation of domesticated animals kept primarily a source = of food.=A0 An animal kept primarily as a source of companionship or entert= ainment, on the other hand,=A0is a "pet".=A0 Even an animal as clear as a p= ig can't be neatly classified.=A0 Many would be livestock but try telling t= hat to the owner of a Vietnamese Potbelly. =A0 Bees are almost certainly livestock to a commercial beekeeper.=A0 To a hobb= yist, the analogy to the birds hosted in my backyard may be more appropriat= e.=A0 I care for them, I feed them and I benefit from their choice to conti= nue living in my yard/neighborhood but my span of control is limited at bes= t.=A0 To a sideliner, bees are probably somewhere=A0on the spectrum between= those two positions.=A0=20 =A0 I have to admit that I'm not sure that it's particularly useful to try to d= raw a bright line about whether an entire species is "livestock" or not.=A0= Is there a particular legal standard that drove the original question?=A0 = If so, we should probably consider the question in the context of that spec= ific legislation. Mike Rossander www.rossander.org/infosec=0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:40:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards-add pollen supplement ? for Randy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >What commercial substitute would you recommend I use. I've always used Bee-Pro. They changed the formula...I assume...as it is a different color that it used to be. Was going to try MegaBee this year, but some comments made have put me off. This question was sent to me privately, but I think I'll answer it on List. None of my comments should have put you off to MegaBee. I can only go by data, published or unpublished. The USDA has data that suggest that MegaBee is the best supplement out there. Now what we need is replication in other trials to see if it is consistent--as you know, we've been burned by data from other trials. In a relatively small trial that I ran last summer (12 colonies in each treatment) MegaBee performed well, as did the homebrew. The trial was too small to be definitive. No formula out there appears yet to be a complete pollen substitute. The success of any formula may well depend upon the local conditions--especially whatever traces of natural pollen are available, and their composition. I've spoken to many beekeepers who have tried MegaBee. The response has generally been positive, with the main question being whether it was worth the additional price. There are a number of beekeepers who swear by other formulas, and have done their own private (and unpublished) testing. Of course, several who have strong opinions also sell one of the products. Please realize that this is a touchy subject, and I do not wish to either shill nor disparage any product out there, as I can assure you that every manufacturer is earnestly convinced that they sell the best product available. OK, I just got off the phone with Dave Hackenberg. He's given me permission to post his formula. I just uploaded it to my website on my Pollen Supplement page under Nutrition. Here's the URL for Allen, who has trouble navigating my site : ) http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=70 Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:07:12 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bees as livestock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I started this thread because of a question about the classification of bees under agricultural programs and laws. I'm not sure that livestock and domestication are synonymous. I've always thought that we manage bees (move hives around, etc.) but in general they are not considered to be domesticated in the sense of pets, cattle, horses, etc. Certainly, most state and federal ag departments list bees and bee stats with livestock. Jerry **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:06:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: De Groots percentages (was HFCS (was candy Boards-add pollen supplement ? for Randy) In-Reply-To: <002501c990f5$f3471900$3e0bb47c@user96c8c0908f> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >With our modern day technology is it something that should be done? Hi Trevor, I'm not sure that modern technology will help. Much modern technology is just shortcuts that steer researchers away from the hard, tedious type of work that was commonly done during the '40's and '50's. I'm not sure that there is a shortcut for finding the proper balance of essential amino acids. One could simply hydrosolyze bees and see what the end proportions are, but I don't know if that would tell you what the best proportions are in feed. Your Rob Manning in South Australia is an example of a researcher who still is willing to do the tedious testing. I'm not sure who would fund such research today. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 12:28:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Protein Supplement Feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > None of my comments should have put you off to MegaBee. I can only go by > data, published or unpublished. The USDA has data that suggest that > MegaBee is the best supplement out there. Now what we need is replication > in other trials to see if it is consistent--as you know, we've been burned > by data from other trials. That is a fact. Trials are very difficult to do well, since they require getting representative samples of different products together in one place and applying them properly. Not as easy as one might think, since few distributors will admit their stock is a year old, but often it is older than that! Samples obtained may be of differing ages, and age may affect the levels of various nutrients adversely. This latter point is one we are trying to get a grip on, but since there are many nutrients involved and storage conditions may vary, this is not ever going to be cut and dried, but we do know that fresher is better. Different products may also have different purposes. Some are designed for rapid consumption and others for time-release. Some need added sugar, some have enough already. How do you compare them? I've seen some really unfair tests done by people who should know better. As for Megabee, it simply has to be a good product. A lot of work has gone into it. The thing many miss is that much of that work, and some compromises made were due to the fact that Megabee was designed as a *liquid feed*. Patties were an afterthought. In designing liquid feed, there are huge problems with spoilage, settling and separation, particle size, phagostimulation, etc. that simply do not apply in patty use. Those consideration are largely responsible for the greater cost of MegaBee, as I understand it (and I did keep in touch with the originator of the product throughout its development and initial incorporation into patty form). I doubt there is a better liquid protein feed for bees than MegaBee, but I assume we are discussing patties, since, in comparison, liquid feeds are messy and difficult to feed in sufficient quantity. > In a relatively small trial that I ran last summer (12 colonies in each > treatment) MegaBee performed well, as did the homebrew. The trial was too > small to be definitive. No formula out there appears yet to be a complete > pollen substitute. The success of any formula may well depend upon the > local conditions--especially whatever traces of natural pollen are > available, and their composition. That point can never be emphasized too strongly. Failure to understand and plan supplementation can lead to damaged colonies. and/or wasted money, plus badmouthing a perfectly good product. > I've spoken to many beekeepers who have tried MegaBee. The response has > generally been positive, with the main question being whether it was worth > the additional price. Exactly, and that is hard to prove conclusively, since the effects of feeding are at once obvious, and subtle. The obvious, visible, effects of feeding are increased brood and larger, more robust bees. The subtle effects are long term improvements in crops, colony health and enhanced resistance to disease and parasites. Ultimately these add up to better wintering, too. Randy may or or may not choose to discuss the long term outcomes of that trial; if they mean anything, and they may not, the results are surprising, and grounds for further deep contemplation and study. Supplementation is not a simple topic. > There are a number of beekeepers who swear by other formulas, and have > done their own private (and unpublished) testing. Of course, several who > have strong opinions also sell one of the products. We need a really good comparison study running over several years to determine cost effectiveness and long term results. A everyone knows, I am for 'open source' in bee feeding, and reveal everything I know (Sometimes more than I know). I think public money has been spent on the background research and that the public has the rights to the results. Sadly we are seeing propriety products and in some cases the accompanying hype and deceit that comes with commercialization. I suppose that the competition is a good thing in the sense that all those voices shouting, "Feed your bees!", get the message across. Furthermore, I do not believe that there is any legitimate place in a honey-producing beehive for products that are not disclosed, and FDA and/or USDA approved. > Here's the URL for Allen, who has trouble navigating my site : ) > http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=70 Thanks Randy I feel special. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 12:38:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Protein Supplement Feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm not sure that there is a shortcut for finding the proper balance of > essential amino acids. One could simply hydrosolyze bees and see what the > end proportions are, but I don't know if that would tell you what the best > proportions are in feed. We all want a one-size-fits-all answer and I am quite certain it simply does not exist. A small colony in spring is going to need different nutrients than a large colony in winter. There are endless variations, and the environment introduces even more factors. What we all would like to know is what causes the 2 brood cycle limitation. That one has eluded us a long time, even though it seemed to be settled a few times. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:01:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Weller Subject: Re: HMF ppm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ignorant question: What is HMF? Walter Weller ****************************** ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:36:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Beees as livestock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a snippet that came my way and I know no more about it. I don't know if it made the final bill or not. Apparently our lawmakers see bees as belonging WITH livestock, at least. >>>>>$150 million for honey bee insurance: (Pg. 102 of Senate Appropriations Committee report: "The Secretary shall use up to $ 50,000,000 per year, and $150,000,000 in the case of 2009, from the Trust Fund to provide emergency relief to eligible producers of livestock, honey bees, and farm-raised fish to aid in the reduction of losses due to disease, adverse weather, or other conditions, such as blizzards and wildfires, as determined by the Secretary") <<<< Dick Marron ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:49:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "There's very little chemical difference between these two sweeteners, and > there's no reason to be > more afraid of high-fructose corn syrup than regular table sweetener," said > David Schardt, the > center's senior nutritionist. There is a big difference chemically since cane sugar is sucrose and HFCS is a mix. The argument that they are not different comes from the split of sucrose into glucose and fructose by the body. There are studies out there that show that HFCS is not the best way for the body to take in sugar as it handles fructose and glucose differently when they come in already split. If Bob rails against Bayer, I might as well do the same with big corn. Personally, I have seen too many good studies that indict HFCS in our diet. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 20:08:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: HFCS, HMF, ETC. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > High fructose corn syrup may be used as a sweetener in processed foods and beverages and is nutritionally equivalent to sucrose. Both sweeteners contain the same number of calories (4 per gram) and consist of about equal parts of fructose and glucose. Once absorbed into the blood stream, the two sweeteners are indistinguishable. HFCS is a controversial topic and although not all nutrition professionals will readily accept the scientific evidence, this paper represents an evidenced-based, balanced perspective. Kristine S. Clark, Ph.D., R.D., FACSM Director of Sports Nutrition and Assistant Professor of Nutritional Sciences, Penn State University Published Online by the American Dietetic Association (ADA) * * * It has been an elusive goal for the legion of chemists trying to pull it off: Replace crude oil as the root source for plastic, fuels and scores of other industrial and household chemicals with inexpensive, nonpolluting renewable plant matter. Scientists took a giant step closer to the biorefinery today, reporting in the journal Science that they have directly converted sugars ubiquitous in nature to an alternative source for those products that make oil so valuable, with very little of the residual impurities that have made the quest so daunting. "What we have done that no one else has been able to do is convert glucose directly in high yields to a primary building block for fuel and polyesters," said Z. Conrad Zhang, senior author who led the research and a scientist with the PNNL-based Institute for Interfacial Catalysis, or IIC. That building block is called HMF, which stands for hydroxymethylfurfural. It is a chemical derived from carbohydrates such as glucose and fructose and is viewed as a promising surrogate for petroleum-based chemicals. Glucose, in plant starch and cellulose, is nature's most abundant sugar. "But getting a commercially viable yield of HMF from glucose has been very challenging," Zhang said. "In addition to low yield until now, we always generate many different byproducts," including levulinic acid, making product purification expensive and uncompetitive with petroleum-based chemicals. "The opportunities are endless," Zhang said, "and the chemistry is starting to get interesting." http://www.pnl.gov/news/release.asp?id=255 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 20:43:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 15 Feb 2009 to 16 Feb 2009 (#2009-46) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:14:12 -0500 > From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" > Subject: Bees in Brazil and Muscardine Disease Joe, Muscardine disease is the early name for Metarhizium anisopliae for its green spores! I have not heard of the disease in bees in current times. Though it is one species of fungus introduced to control mites. Problem is that the spores are not persistent in hives and therefor are not in sufficient amount to control them. I would not be surprised to hear of M.a. cropping up here or there on its own--that is just what these fungi (entomopathogenic ) do. Mike Annals of the Entomological Society of America, Volume 19, Number 2, June 1926 , pp. 180-192(13) During the summer seasons of 1922, 1923, 1924 and 1925, a number of the writer's stock silkworms died of a fungus affection. The disease invariably appeared during hot, humid spells, and unless controlled assumed epidemic proportions. The eggs, from which these silkworm cultures were derived, originally came from healthy stock, and since the fungus has been described as a parasite of a variety of insects, it must have been introduced by one of them. When the affection first appeared, the writer assumed that he was dealing with the so-called green muscardine disease caused by Metarrhizium anisoPliae. In 1924 dead worms and cultures were sent to Miss Vera Charles, mycologist in the Bureau of Plant Industry at Washington, who definitely identified the fungus as Metarrhizium anisoPliae (Metsch.) Sorokin, and also gave much valuable advice. The fungus belongs to the family Mucedineae, one of the Fungi Imperfecti; those forms in which the ascigerous or perfect stage has not been found ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 19:52:21 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: HMF ppm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/02/2009 20:02:23 GMT Standard Time, grumpy7@WILDBLUE.NET writes: Ignorant question: What is HMF? Hydroxyfurfuraldehyde. A breakdown product of sugar that occurs naturally over time but is accelerated by heating. Fresh raw honey from a temperate climate will usually have < 40ppm whereas the pot of strawberry jam in your cupboard may have over 500 ppm as sugars have been boiled. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:19:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: HMF ppm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hydroxymethylfurfural (hence the HMF abbreviation) Jerry **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 09:21:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: HFCS, HMF, ETC. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > High fructose corn syrup may be used as a sweetener in processed foods > and beverages and is nutritionally equivalent to sucrose. Both sweeteners > contain the same number of calories (4 per gram) and consist of about equal > parts of fructose and glucose. Once absorbed into the blood stream, the two > sweeteners are indistinguishable. HFCS is a controversial topic and although > not all nutrition professionals will readily accept the scientific evidence, > this paper represents an evidenced-based, balanced perspective. There is no issue on calories or that sucrose is converted into fructose and glucose by the body. The issue is the conversion before it gets into the body and what that signals to the body. Sucrose is broken down but that breakdown is regulated and the sugars are converted to either fat or metabolized. When the breakdown occurs before consumption, most goes to fat. Plus there are other things that happen to satiation signals (I am full and do not need to eat more). We are still scratching the surface as to what happens with sugar/HFCS consumption and how the body treats them. It is much too simplistic to note that they contain the same number of calories and are chemically similar. What is interesting is the number of juice and other food products that have shifted to sucrose. Check the grocery isles and note the "NO HFCS" banners. Someone is reading the literature. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 09:36:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: HFCS, HMF, ETC. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Check the grocery isles and note the "NO HFCS" banners. >Someone is reading the literature. I read this morning in the paper a woman saying she threw out a five pound jar of peanut butter. People all over the country are throwing out perfectly good peanut butter in a panic. I wouldn't expect the public to make informed choices on food quality. They go by rumors and hearsay, not common sense and science. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 09:41:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Susi Subject: Economist Article Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable The Economist has an article, =B3Decisions, decisions=B2 in February 14th 2009 issue, pg 89, about the way groups of animals make decisions. It uses the current research on Honey Bees as examples. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 09:26:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: D N Israel Subject: Re: HFCS, HMF, ETC. In-Reply-To: <8c0381120902180621y38b9155ai41a8c3724392b740@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) some sites on consumer foods and HFCS http://no-hfcs.tripod.com/ http://highfructosehigh.com/no-hfcs/ On Feb 18, 2009, at 9:21 AM, Bill T wrote: > What is interesting is the number of juice and other food products > that have > shifted to sucrose. Check the grocery isles and note the "NO HFCS" > banners. > Someone is reading the literature. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 09:49:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: HMF ppm In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable New honey contains 1 to 5 mg/kg HMF.5-hydroxymethyl furfural (HMF), In Holland, it is forbidden to sell honey with more than 40 mg/kg HMF. When honey is being stored at 20 C (68F) the HMF content will raise =B11 mg/kg per month. Only fructose will become HMF. So the rise dependent on the kind of honey!! Heating the honey will raise HMF contents rapidly. The longer and/or hotter it is heated, the higher the HMF will become. Table of the time to produce 30 ppm HMF temperature time in day's 30 =B0C 80 =B0F 150-250 40 =B0C 110 =B0F 20-50 50 =B0C 135 =B0F 4.5-9 60 =B0C 160 =B0F 1- 2,5 70 =B0C 185 =B0F 5 -14 houre >From Belgium (VIB) honeybook (1990??) This was from a website in Holland which was referenced on the BeeL many years ago. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 09:50:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: ] Economist Article and Dr. Tom Seeley In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dr. Tom Seeley, one of the authors of the article the Economist discusses, will be a featured speaker at the 2009 EAS Conference in Ellicottville, NY the week of August 3 - 7. He will be discussing, and better, demonstrating the behaviors discussed in the article in our bee yard. Kim Flottum V 800.289.7668 ext 3214 Kim@BeeCulture.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 09:51:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: HFCS, HMF, ETC. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I wouldn't expect the public to make informed > choices on food quality. They go by rumors and hearsay, not common sense > and > science. It is not the public that is shifting to ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 10:10:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: HFCS, HMF, ETC. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > http://no-hfcs.tripod.com/ Has some interesting links at the bottom of the page. Both web pages show that it is not the consumer that has made the decision to shift, but the manufacturer. If you look at what happened in the tobbacco world, it does not take a stretch to see, if the sudies on HFCS to fat are held up, that the TV lawers will have a field day with those companies who do not make the shift back to sucrose. I realize that we are going far afield from beekeeping, but HFCS is a bee feed for some, especially commercial operations, so it is interesting how humans handle HFCS and if there is a similar problem with bees. One comes to mind directly. Sucrose is broken down by enzyme activity to glucose and fructose by the bees. Part of that activity is the conversion of glucose to glucose oxidase. Nectar comes in very diluted, so the enzymes have an opportunity to act over a long period, which determines the levels of both glucose and GO. GO figures prominantly in keeping honey from spoiling and is added to pollen, so you could have (could being the operative word here) a decrease in enzyme activity with HFCS so a less "healhy" food for the bees. HFCS was not as good as sucrose (cane sugar) for overwintering (honey being the worst) from the Bailey studies. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 10:15:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: ] Economist Article and Dr. Tom Seeley In-Reply-To: <8518F15BB956014C90B2E2CC0D4C4F9F0395103E@w2k3telnet.root.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr. Tom Seeley, one of the authors of the article the Economist > discusses, will be a featured speaker at the 2009 EAS Conference in > Ellicottville, NY the week of August 3 - 7. He will be discussing, and > better, demonstrating the behaviors discussed in the article in our bee > yard. For anyone who has never heard Tom, go if you can. I loved his talks at the Maine State Beekeepers meeting last year. Informative and good science. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 09:25:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Weller Subject: Re: HMF ppm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Chris. Walter Weller ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 10:46:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: HMF ppm In-Reply-To: <8c0381120902180649g29366a65sf62ee5d4775a426a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter B was kind to remind me where the link was for the info on HMF. I copied it long ago into a word doc but did not remember the site. http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/hmf.html Lots of info here. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 11:21:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Barnett Subject: Re: Economist Article In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Feb 18, 2009, at 8:41 AM, Susi wrote: The Economist has an article, “Decisions, decisions” in February 14th 2009 issue, pg 89, about the way groups of animals make decisions. It uses the current research on Honey Bees as examples. This article can be read at : http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13097814 Quite interesting! Robert Barnett ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 19:02:52 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Sawdust use by bees. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I recently cut down a couple of large trees in the vicinity of my hives and, consequently, there was a lot of sawdust in the grass. The bees have eagerly been collecting the sawdust and bringing it into the hives. It's a known fact bees will do this when there is little other pollen. What happens when the sawdust is stored in the cells in the hive? Do the bees try to consume it - I hope it does not give them an upset stomach! - or do they finally recognize its low protein value and discard it? Waldemar ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:00:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Bees as livestock In-Reply-To: <8c0381120902170622t20a7d68byed551f48e821ff8@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17-Feb-09, at 9:22 AM, Bill T wrote: > > "The common law recognizes two general classes of animals -- wild and > domestic. Animals such as farm livestock that are ordinarily > harmless to > people are classified as domestic animals. Ownership of domestic > animals > carries certain legal liabilities." > Hi Bill and all The Ontario Ministry of Agriculture and Food has recently moved the Provincial Apiarist and his staff into the department responsible for foods of plant origin. Would this not imply, at least from the bureaucratic point of view, that hive products are plant parts and therefore bees cannot be livestock at all. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 11:57:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Sawdust use by bees. In-Reply-To: <20090218.140252.13375.0@webmail03.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >What happens when the sawdust is stored in the cells in the hive? Do the bees try to consume it Perhaps they use it to repair broken frames : ) Thought I'd add a pollen supplement trivia note here. One major breeder who has mixed supplements for many years incorporates instant mashed potatoes (yes, starch and all) into the mix. Says that bees love it! Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 15:19:21 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bees as livestock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob asks: Would this not imply, at least from the bureaucratic point of view, that hive products are plant parts and therefore bees cannot be livestock at all. As an old Diary man, I'd note that cows eat plants and make milk, but we still consider cows to be livestock. Jerry **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 01:52:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: HFCS, HMF, ETC. In-Reply-To: <8c0381120902180710vad0265bq617c1a2991834774@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my 2c ; 2 books, The Honey Revolution and Hibernation Diet. http://www.thehoneyrevolution.com/ -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 03:07:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Bees as Livestock In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will love them to be, so if stollen we can claim "abigeato" (*rustling?)*. On the contrary, they already are treated as livestoke, cause we need to report each year our herds (apiaries) and heads in each (hives) to the ag autorithy and need to report movements during the seasons. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 03:55:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Protein Supplement Feeding In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >What we all would like to know is what causes the 2 brood cycle limitation. That one has eluded us a long time, even though it seemed to be settled a few times. What is a brood cycle? How many can we expect in a full year? How many can we expect before changing the queen? Do me measure from spring to spring or from autum to autum? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:43:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Smith Subject: Re: HFCS, HMF, ETC. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, say that when you feed peanut butter to your children and you may understand the simplistic view of the common person...Not to say you aren't right but. James E Smith Tulelake, CA ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:55:34 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Sugar Free Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some time ago Gavin Ramsey gave links to a product called Honey Aroma = which clearly breached EU regulations. I followed this up with Trading = Standards and today received the reply below. Clearly, action can and will be taken (at least in the EU) against these = misleading products by Trading Standards and it is well worth our time = to report them. Beekeepers must fight to keep the image of honey clean. Best wishes=20 Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/=20 From: Karen Willis=20 To: Peter Edwards=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:46 AM Subject: Re: Re-Honey Aroma Complaint Good Morning,=20 Final update for you on the Honey Aroma:=20 The 'Virility health' owner has just phoned to say that he will stop = all imports of this item immediately and remove the item from his = website (which may be as soon as today) and he will destroy all the = remaining stock, of which there was only a little. Apparently the item = did not sell well anyway!=20 So that was a good result. Well spotted!=20 Regards=20 Karen Willis Trading Standards Officer Surrey County Council Trading Standards Service Bay Tree Avenue Kingston Road Leatherhead Surrey KT22 7SY =20 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 07:02:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: HFCS, HMF, ETC. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Peter, say that when you feed peanut butter to your children I have got kids and I have got peanut butter. Both are doing fine. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:56:48 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Australia: price rise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://business.theage.com.au/business/climate-crises-to-sour-honey-prices-20090215-8840.html Capilano talks ... -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:03:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Iowa - new pesticide rules to protect bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.kwwl.com/Global/story.asp?S=9853653 Iowa implements new rule to protect bee colonies Posted: Feb 16, 2009 04:35 PM WATERLOO (KWWL) -- The Iowa Secretary of Agriculture says worldwide reports of Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD), where whole hives of bees just disappear, is alarming for Iowa where bees are vital to the state's agricultural productivity. Bees help pollinate crops and as a result, the Secretary of Agriculture estimates the economic impact of honey bee pollination in Iowa is $92 million annually. The Iowa Department of Agriculture and Land Stewardship recently published an updated "Bee Rule" that is designed to better protect the health of the 30,000 colonies of bees that are located across the state. The updated rule limits the application of insecticides labeled as dangerous to bees in areas near registered apiaries around the active foraging hours of honeybees. The applications must occur prior to 8:00 a.m. or after 6:00 p.m. These times are designed to prevent application directly to foraging bees and also allows chemicals to settle and dry onto plant surfaces outside the primary hours of active bee foraging. Iowa Secretary of Agriculture Bill Northey is urging all the apiaries in the state to register with the Sensitive Crops Directory so that pesticide applicators have the most up-to-date information possible. In an effort to keep the directory as accurate as possible, the information will be purged every year on Dec. 31, so it is vital that those on the directory re-enter their information every year to remain active. The new "Bee Rule" came from meetings held by Iowa Department of Agriculture and Land Stewardship officials, Iowa Honey Producers Association board members, pesticide applicators, Iowa State University experts and beekeepers. The previous "Bee Rule" had been in place since 1979. Recently the Administrative Rules Review formally invalidated the old rule on the grounds the Department lacked that statutory authority to implement it. This action made enforcement of the old rule impossible. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:51:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: HMF ppm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Mike Rowbottom [mailto:cognant.mike@btconnect.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:30 AM Dear all I am wondering what HMF levels are achieved in the manufacture of fondant used to feed honeybees. A recipe widely used in the UK (from Wedmore's "A Manual of Beekeeping") boils a sugar solution up to 117 degrees C (245 degrees F). The heating time depends on the mass of solution and the size of the heater; (10-12 lbs of sugar in 3lbs of water on a domestic natural gas fired stove takes around 45 minutes), but the subsequent cooling is rapid ( In this example perhaps another 10 minutes to nearly cold). Extrapolation(always dangerous) of the data provided earlier by Bill T suggests that at ~85 degrees C (185 deg. F) the rate of production of HMF becomes huge, and enormous levels of HMF would be predicted for the fondant. Regards Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorkshire UK ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 07:40:38 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: Iowa - new pesticide rules to protect bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian wrote > The updated rule limits the application of insecticides labeled as > dangerous to bees in areas near > registered apiaries around the active foraging hours of honeybees. The > applications must occur > prior to 8:00 a.m. or after 6:00 p.m. These times are designed to prevent > application directly to > foraging bees and also allows chemicals to settle and dry onto plant > surfaces outside the primary > hours of active bee foraging. What happens to those bees working before 8am? The rules look like a step in the right direction but need some working on to make them prcatical. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:11:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Stan_Sandler?= Subject: Re: Iowa - new pesticide rules to protect bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 07:40:38 +1000, Trevor Weatherhead >What happens to those bees working before 8am? The rules look like a step >in the right direction but need some working on to make them prcatical. Hi Trevor and all: The rules were for Iowa, not Queensland. Most days except for a heat wave in mid summer bees aren't flying much before 8 (here in PEI anyway, maybe in Iowa too). Of more concern might be the systemic insecticides on the main crop in Iowa, corn. Stan ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:16:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Use of weight on managment desitions Comments: To: A serious list for discerning beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi guys, how is winter going? Over here high temperatures not seen for the past decades. All dry, lots of bush fires. Not much honey.30% of expectations harvested (and sold) at the present moment. We are in a sort of "waiting" mode, expecting the Ulmo to bloom, but who knows ... weather turned wet and cold now. This have giving me time for thinking on new gadgets and their real usefullness. I have always wanted to put a hive in a scale, but had never done so, basically for three reason: a.- I won't be constant enough for taking daily reading (less with a higher frecuency) b.- One hive is not statistically significant. c.- How to interpret the data. I am working on a.- and b.- by means of technology and money (replication of that technology) So I will like to work with you on c.- How to use that "instantly gathered data of each hive in the world" for taking managment desitions? I have no idea what to expect. I haven't find any decent writing on the use or more basic on description of actual hive weight data. Anyone of you can direct me to some data or analisis of weight data? Each time I start thinking on how to use this potential data, it come to my mind the need of other data to be able to really interpret what is going on. Lets figure out one posible weight reading : "No change of weight over time". What is going on in the hive? Total Balance? What is coming in is the same as what is going out? What is coming in and what is going out? What else we need but weight? Temperature inside and outside the cluster? Relative Humidity on which locations? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:14:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Iowa - new pesticide rules to protect bees In-Reply-To: <001c01c992da$b6694d50$3204e43c@user96c8c0908f> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 19-Feb-09, at 4:40 PM, Trevor Weatherhead wrote: > Brian wrote > >> The updated rule limits the application of insecticides labeled as >> dangerous to bees in areas near >> registered apiaries around the active foraging hours of honeybees. >> The applications must occur >> prior to 8:00 a.m. or after 6:00 p.m. These times are designed to >> prevent application directly to >> foraging bees and also allows chemicals to settle and dry onto >> plant surfaces outside the primary >> hours of active bee foraging. > > What happens to those bees working before 8am? The rules look like > a step in the right direction but need some working on to make them > prcatical. > > Hi Trevor Brian and all And with daylight savings time my bees are foraging heavily up to 9PM in late June. I am at 44 degrees north while Des Moines and Cedar Rapids are at 42 degrees north but still with sunlight well after 6PM. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 02:11:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BillSF9c - Bill Smythe Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - Use of weight on managment desitions In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Over here high temperatures not seen for the past decades. All dry, lots of bush fires. Not much honey.30% of expectations harvested (and sold) at the present moment. We are in a sort of "waiting" mode, expecting the Ulmo to bloom, but who knows ... weather turned wet and cold now. A couple things vary. 1) Things. 2) How far these things, vary. - (Which, + & - swings, change over years, decades, centuries.) >This have giving me time for thinking on new gadgets and their real usefullness. Ahh yes. We humans love our toys...! ;>) >I have always wanted to put a hive in a scale, but had never done so, basically for three reason: a.- I won't be constant enough for taking daily reading (less with a higher frecuency) b.- One hive is not statistically significant. c.- How to interpret the data. Well, it is somewhat statistically significant foir THAT hive, and THAT area. If you are weighing yourself, you are statistically significant to yourself. others, sure, they form a loose parameter or "too slow" and "what will kill you in the attempt." >I am working on a.- and b.- by means of technology and money (replication of that technology) >So I will like to work with you on c.- How to use that "instantly gathered data of each hive in the world" for taking managment desitions? Instantly? Don't. Maybe graph and project it in Excel or on a paper graph. take action before, a danger point looms too close. YOUR hive, area, may be a honey hive, but is... as you are, unique. You ask for numbers that, if generated, are proprietary at this point. And maybe full of holes or hot air. Make your own numbers. Adjust, Feedback, learn, UnLearn, constantly. Then... Things will change again, but you will be moving and awake. >I have no idea what to expect. I haven't find any decent writing on the use or more basic on description of actual hive weight data. Yes you do. YOU just wrote it. Expect, part of the expected, and part, the UnExpected... >Anyone of you can direct me to some data or analisis of weight data? >Each time I start thinking on how to use this potential data, it come to my mind the need of other data to be able to really interpret what is going on. You start with the SIMplest of graphs, data bases. You add columns and rows. You expand. You continue, ad nauseum. You almost scrap many columns of data/work-collecting-data. And THAT year, decade, it becomes significant in light of a new variable. >Lets figure out one posible weight reading : "No change of weight over time". What is going on in the hive? Total Balance? What is coming in is the same as what is going out? What is coming in and what is going out? Ok........... LOL! Homeostasis? No expansion... But perfect equilibrium? AKA, "UnProfitable," if projected on a human being, in one light. "Survivalist," if projected on a bee in adverse times. >What else we need but weight? Temperature inside and outside the cluster? Relative Humidity on which locations? Juanse Barros J. Gorbea - CHILE Take cars on a drag strip as an example. On one day, you need not take wind into account, temperature, etc. But if you compare to a drag strip 200 miles away, it can matter. Do, WILL, you compete there? Compare to them? Will you compare your dry powder snow skis to their wet slush ski performances? It depends if you want more from a "home setting," a test for a certain variety of bee, a certain hive type, under certain conditions (even if that is mere most-mass-honey-production...) You ask a too-openended question... "What will my girlfriend weigh this week." The variables are not numerous, but very numerous. YOU must determine what single variabke to test for. THAT is the "scientific method." It sounds as if you search for a proper control group basis. It's really your choice. If bees gain 50 lbs per hive, "usually," and in the year of your test, they do not, it may not invalidate your collected data for whatever you are searching for, whatsoever, in comparison. Even the hive type matters... Open air, HTB, KTB, Lang... (10 frame; 10 but used as 9 or 8, etc) Warre', Alpine, Other... So it's a good thing that this is fun and not work... LOL! ;>) But weight your hives. It's a good start. Maybe record bloom dates of major food sources each year. (Use also, news reports of pollen counts for asthmatics, if applicable plant types.) Barometric pressure??? Rain? Sun versus cloudy? It affects me. It might affects bees, also. Start somewhere. Asking, was a good start. We can be wrong, but it's food for thought. I leave room for many columns in my spreadsheets. I may not use them all. I may add more, also. Weight? It's basic to value other columns or calculations. How much you weigh for your size, determines a lot of how you act, otherwise. Same with a bee hive. If you or a bee hive has major factors, it's in the top 4 or 5, I'd think. Fat people may not win a race, but fat bee hives might. Gout was a disease of the intelligence it was once thought in early America. Smart folks had money. They seemed to get a little fatter than others. Some of this was fatty dairy foods. It caused gout. Weight is one good data stream. Plotted regularly or irregularly; the data is good to have. You can plot/infer curve data points that are missing, adequately, in many cases. You have to start somewhere... Weight is basic as hive size, season, bee infusion and type of infusion, type of bee, etc. Many columns... When it gets to be too much, get a neural network program to sift the data for hidden gems. BillSF9c ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:21:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: HMF ppm In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA341072E02CD@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I am wondering what HMF levels are achieved in the manufacture of > fondant used to feed honeybees. Would depend upon whether acid was added to the mix. The reaction requires acid. Table sugar is generally about neutral, but could vary. Easy to test. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 08:12:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Companies Are Thwarting Research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Biotechnology companies are keeping university scientists from fully researching the effectiveness and environmental impact of the industry's genetically modified crops, according to an unusual complaint issued by a group of those scientists. "No truly independent research can be legally conducted on many critical questions," the scientists wrote in a statement submitted to the Environmental Protection Agency. The E.P.A. is seeking public comments for scientific meetings it will hold next week on biotech crops. The problem, the scientists say, is that farmers and other buyers of genetically engineered seeds have to sign an agreement meant to ensure that growers honor company patent rights and environmental regulations. But the agreements also prohibit growing the crops for research purposes. So while university scientists can freely buy pesticides or conventional seeds for their research, they cannot do that with genetically engineered seeds. Instead, they must seek permission from the seed companies. And sometimes that permission is denied or the company insists on reviewing any findings before they can be published, they say. Dr. Ostlie, at the University of Minnesota, said he had permission from three companies in 2007 to compare how well their insect-resistant corn varieties fared against the rootworms found in his state. But in 2008, Syngenta, one of the three companies, withdrew its permission and the study had to stop. "The company just decided it was not in its best interest to let it continue," Dr. Ostlie said. Mark A. Boetel, associate professor of entomology at North Dakota State University, said that before genetically engineered sugar beet seeds were sold to farmers for the first time last year, he wanted to test how the crop would react to an insecticide treatment. But the university could not come to an agreement with the companies responsible, Monsanto and Syngenta, over publishing and intellectual property rights. -- Crop Scientists Say Biotechnology Seed Companies Are Thwarting Research By ANDREW POLLACK Published: February 19, 2009 -- NY Times ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:12:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: HMF ppm In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10902192121r57b6f714oe865f53fb381ce7a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would depend upon whether acid was added to the mix. The reaction requires > acid. Table sugar is generally about neutral, but could vary. Easy to > test. Tartaric acid is a common additive to sugar syrups and other confections including fondant. Bailey's studies showed TA was bad for bees when used with sugar syrup. It is listed as an ingredient for "candy" for feeding bees in The Hive and the Honeybee as well as many beekeeping websites. Tartaric acid is another subject in the archives. Many used it and saw no problems, but if you always use something that harms your bees, you will never see a problem since the problem creates your baseline. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:34:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: HMF ppm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:12:07 -0500, Bill T wrote: > but if you always use something that harms your bees, you will never see a problem since the problem creates your baseline. Exactly! If you have a product or a disease or a practice that shortens the life span of the workers even by a few days, you may not "notice" anything at all. The colonies performance may be *significantly* worse, however. The effect could range from slow buildup, never reaching full strength, smaller honey crop, etc. And if the same thing is happening to all the hives, you have nothing to compare them to. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 07:14:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Companies Are Thwarting Research In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Biotechnology companies are keeping university scientists from fully > researching the effectiveness and environmental impact of the > industry's genetically modified crops, according to an unusual > complaint issued by a group of those scientists. As I mentioned recently, a similar thing occurred in the latest Journal of Apicultural Research, in a protein supplement feeding trial. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:44:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: CCD again? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/blogs/bees/colony-collapse-disorder- 88021704#comments Colony Collapse Disorder Showing Up Again in East Coast Hives Early reports of a healthy bee population for the California almond pollination were overly optimistic. The situation has worsened dramatically. February 17, 2009 at 10:49am by Kim Flottum I'm often accused of being overly optimistic. Sometimes that's true. It is today. I listened to those with their heads on straight, with long experience in the field, with years of scientific background ... and they all said basically the same thing. And I even looked at the evidence myself, listened to the bees, watched them fly. The experts said they were in good shape, the bees looked like they were in good shape, and the beekeepers said things were going the way they used to go ... just fine, thanks. But Colony Collapse Disorder strikes most often right about now, and up until right about now things were going just fine. Finer, in fact than in years. I, in my optimism, listened to all of the experts and all of the beekeepers and even saw all of the improvements ... better nutrition, fewer mite-controlling chemicals, cleaner hives, less pesticide exposure. And it looked good. Really, it did. Or at least it did on the west coast. Mostly, the bees out there were doing fine. And with fewer trees and more bees, suddenly it sounded like the days of old ... the wild, wild west once again. But it's those east coast bees that that didn't get the message I guess. Florida bees, strong only weeks ago, one operation went from nearly a thousand colonies to a handful ... only 50 or so ... in a mere three weeks. 1,000 to only 50. That's a loss of about 50 a day, two an hour 24 hours a day for three weeks. Samples indicated that the Nosema disease was present but not at lethal levels. But it was there. Virus was too. And here's an interesting turn.... Another operation went through a similar loss, though not in the huge numbers the first one did. But the pattern of infection is interesting, and those involved were able to watch it over time. Initially, in colonies that were apparently healthy, samples indicated that there were usually two to four viruses present ... garden variety types, the researchers said. But when the colonies began to show signs of problems, the samples indicated there were seven to nine viruses present in the bees. As the colonies continued to rapidly dwindle, virus samples showed that at the end, only one or two viruses remained ... the same as were there at the beginning. So were these tiny villains the killers? Did they provide the stress that allowed others to take advantage, weaken the bees, then finish them off at the end? The Nosema disease that's attracting attention was part of the complex ... but what part? There wasn't pesticide or nutritional stress. If, indeed, colony collapse disorder is a pathogen, this is the prime example of what it looks like. No cell phones. No pesticides. No bad food. A complex of viruses, bacteria and ... and what? And just to cloud the picture, another east coast operation, with a history of having colony collapse disorder in the past, had it again right at the end of January ... right on time. This time they were aware of what was going on and called in the scientists. Mites, Nosema off the scale, and a long, dwindling decline. An indistinct virus complex with no real other obvious causes ... go figure. Maybe one of the viruses is in common with the rest. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe something else. Like I said. It's not over til it's over. And it's not over yet. Now I'm a believer, again. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:39:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nick Behrens Subject: Re: Iowa - new pesticide rules to protect bees In-Reply-To: <7AF5568C-849C-44A2-81E1-1154A652E0BB@interlog.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > And with daylight savings time my bees are foraging heavily up to 9PM in > late June. I am at 44 degrees north while Des Moines and Cedar Rapids ar= e > at 42 degrees north but still with sunlight well after 6PM. > > Bob Darrell > Caledon Ontario > Canada > 44N80W > The law taken from the Iowa Code article: "21=9745.31(206) Application of pesticides toxic to bees. 45.31(1) Owners of apiaries, in order to protect their bees from pesticide applications, shall register the location of their apiaries with the state apiarist. Registration shall be on forms provided by the department. The registration expires December 31 each year and may be renewed the following year. 45.31(2) *Between 8 a.m. and 6 p.m., a commercial applicator shall not appl= y to blooming crops pesticides labeled as toxic to bees when the commercial applicator is located within one mile of a registered apiary.* A commercial applicator shall be responsible for maintaining the one-mile distance from apiaries that are registered and listed on the sensitive crop registry on the first day of each month. This rule is intended to implement Iowa Code sections 206.6(5)"a"(3) and 206.19(2). [ARC 7572B, IAB 2/11/09, effective 1/22/09]" I live in Ames (30mi (48KM)) north of Des Moines, IA. Bees during the summe= r do fly before 8am, not a lot but some. Also, you can still find bees flying at 8 or 9pm at night during the summer, with some returning around 10pm even. The law, mostly from what I've gathered is more for protecting bees from blooming soybeans and other blooming crops like apples etc. You do not find many bees in corn fields (and for that matter soybeans) even though I have been told of stories from a former Dadant manager in Sioux city, (wher= e I grew up) that bees could make honey from soybeans. Also, as you can see above it is only for blooming crops, yet it does not define what bloom is (any or >5% 10%). It's a start, but I think there are more questions now in a way. Nick --=20 Nick Behrens Graduate Assistant Department of Entomology Iowa State University ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 12:31:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: Iowa - new pesticide rules to protect bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Its also commendable to note that Iowa has the median strips of interstates planted with prairie flowers and clover that reduce the need for spraying or mowing and provide good forage for pollinators and songbirds. Here in Mn we have zero bee laws, no colony registration and the ditches are heavily mowed or sprayed. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 12:36:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: CCD again? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit more as usual possibly conflicting information http://deltafarmpress.com/news/beekeepers-colonies-0220/ Beekeepers ‘hanging on' Feb 20, 2009 8:06 AM, By David Bennett Farm Press Editorial Staff For several years, U.S. honeybees — key for good crop yields — have been dying off or abandoning colonies en masse, resulting in fears for the pollination of U.S. crops. The die-offs and set of odd behaviors exhibited by honeybees is known as colony collapse disorder, a malady researchers have yet to pinpoint the cause of. In 2006-07, problems with colony collapse disorder-affected hives had largely been an East Coast problem. Tens of thousands of colonies were lost to the disease. By last summer, the problem had shifted to the West Coast, where crops like almonds rely heavily on the insects. Where does the U.S. apiary industry stand now? “Over this winter, we’ve not yet had dramatic reports of honeybee colonies dying all over,” says Jerry Hayes, assistant chief for Plant and Apiary Inspection in Florida. “Have we had reports from individual beekeepers with dramatic losses? Yes, that continues.” Early reports out of some California almond pollination locations are that bees are declining in strength. However, at this time of year, that isn’t unusual. “Since a lot of the losses last year were while the bees were in almonds, we’re just biding our time for the next couple of weeks to see if there’s a trend going here. Or maybe Darwin’s in action and all the weak ones have been killed off and we’ll have a bit of a reprieve with stronger bees left. The jury is still out.” Asked if researchers have determined a cause for colony collapse disorder, Hayes says the search is still ongoing. However, “we know a lot more about the stresses the bees are under. There has been a lot of interest in this. Money has been spent on CCD and honeybee health issues in general. There are some new projects that will be getting up to speed this year. “Unfortunately, research never moves quickly. But there have been a lot of smart people with expensive equipment looking at honeybees who haven’t studied bees before. “All sorts of things, some maybe scary, have been found. At this point, we’re not sure exactly what it means, though.” Asked for examples, Hayes points to studies being done at the University of Montana in conjunction with the U.S. Department of Defense. “The Defense Department has equipment that can analyze air, tissue and what have you for pathogens so that our troops can be protected if there’s a biological warfare threat.” This Department of Defense precise equipment has been used on honeybees and found a “tremendous amount of virus-size particles in them. It was quite surprising. But what does that mean? We aren’t sure if these have been introduced or are something that has been around. Most of these viral particles don’t have names.” Other viruses worry researchers. “In particular, Israeli acute paralysis virus was identified in Israel but seems to be most prevalent in Australian honeybees, which have been imported in large numbers over the last several years.” There’s also a type of fungal pathogen that lives in the gut of honeybees. “It causes them to not be able to absorb nutrients, become weaker and die prematurely.” With all the analysis of honeybees, the comb they live on, and the pollen they bring in, researchers have found an array of chemicals. “Those include pesticides and environmental toxins. Honeybees are flying dust-mops, if you will, when they go into the environment. Because they forage in such large areas, they bring all sorts of things back to the hive you wouldn’t expect.” Case in point: Hayes and colleagues have about 100 colonies of honeybees they use for research purposes. “We decided to look at those just to see what was in them. Lo and behold, in some colonies, there were high levels of styrene. I was thinking, ‘Where in the world is styrene coming from?’ “Well, we began looking in the area and there’s a plastic pipe manufacturer about 30 miles from the research colonies. As the (materials used to make pipes) goes up the chimney, it’s spread around and bees pick it up as they forage on flowers.” Honeybees are environmental samplers, says Hayes. As such, they can be used in unexpected ways. “Maybe 20 or 30 years ago, honeybees were used in Canada to find gold deposits. That’s because as plants take up minerals from the soil, they concentrate them in the pollen and nectar. “Researchers and mining experts would analyze the pollen bees brought back. The pollen with higher gold content had a better chance of coming from an area containing larger gold deposits. Imagine that!” Take a step back, says Hayes, “and consider how the bees are interfacing with the environment. Getting the whole picture isn’t easy.” Regarding Australian honeybee imports, a vocal faction of U.S. beekeepers want them kept out of the country. Last year, a plan for the importation of Mexican honeybees was likewise contentious. Does Hayes believe concerns about importing foreign honeybees are overblown? “Not really. In regards to imported honeybees, I don’t believe we have good enough oversight of the pests, predators and diseases that might be brought in with these insects. We certainly appreciate the Australian Department of Agriculture studying and surveying their colonies. “However, it’s already been proven that their honeybees had one virus and, because they haven’t been challenged by varroa mites and some of the other things U.S. honeybees routinely deal with, they’re genetically weaker. They don’t live very long. They live long enough to pollinate, of course, but another concern is they weaken the U.S. honeybee population.” Last year, Mexican honeybees weren’t allowed into the country. But the need for them wasn’t as pressing as once feared. “In fact, the Californian almond industry, which has been driving the commercial U.S. beekeeping industry, seems to be shrinking. California has many issues with adequate water. Growers have to pay for water and with the lower price of almonds, some have decided to stop with the crop. In some cases, they’re actually bulldozing orchards. The formerly brisk pace of orchard planting has slowed.” Also, for crop insurance purposes, the rules about having two honeybee colonies per acre are being modified. The requirement could be dropped to one colony per acre. “All that means there’s less need of honeybees in California. That should continue at least for a few years.” How are current honey prices affecting the beekeeping industry? “The honey price is still up, although not as high as it was last spring. Of course, the overall economic downturn has impacted the bee industry too. But the prices are still high enough for good grades of honey that the expense of East Coast keepers heading west, along with less need for pollination already mentioned, make it cheaper to leave the bees on this side (of the country). That means money is being saved from transportation costs. Also, bees that aren’t involved in big moves don’t seem to have the same health concerns.” Europeans, warns Hayes, are banning pesticide use “left and right because of pollinator concerns. I don’t know that’s the answer. Chemicals in production agriculture are tools that, when used well and wisely, are a positive.” Many people believe chemicals are the “boogeyman” in the continuing problems with honeybees. Hayes agrees that “they probably don’t help. But I also want your readers to know that without those tools it would difficult for all of us to eat three meals a day. We must have a balance between protection of pollinators and producing quality crops. “Food doesn’t come from the grocery store. And the USDA projects that the United States will get something like 40 percent of its vegetables from China by 2012-13. Another projection is the United States will be a net food importer in 50 years.” If no one cares about that, “I’m wasting my time. If they do care, though, they should take comfort in knowing researchers are trying to solve these pollinator issues. But it takes time and, as we do our work, beekeepers are holding on by their fingernails.” ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 23:40:25 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: > For hobby beeks my advice is to buy table sugar and only mix what you need > and only use the heat needed to get into solution. No heat at all is needed - just use cold water and stir for 15 minutes to dissolve; stirring uses much less energy than heat. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 09:02:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: CCD again? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit more as usual possibly conflicting information [re CCD] Brian, I spoke with three major bee brokers, and some large beekeepers, in the past two days. No one is mentioning CCD problems in Calif. There are clearly some operations in the US with serious problems, though. Also, a number with nosema, mite, nutrition, or other problems. Overall, the supply of bees in Calif, which is an indicator of US supply, appears to be strong, although this may well be due to decreased demand due to water issues. There is an ugly price-cutting war on at the last minute here, as desperate beekeepers try to get any sort of income off yards of unrented colonies. There is a great deal of animosity by California beekeepers (who depend upon almond pollination for income) towards out of state beekeepers who are driving pollination prices down. The resentment is that some other states make it difficult for Calif beekeepers to place bees for summer pasture, yet California allows any and all to come crash our party, leave a mess, and stick us with the bill. I am simply reporting the opinions of others--they do not necessarily reflect the opinions of management, staff, or sponsors, and we are not directly pointing any fingers at my friend Bob Harrison, whose name has not been changed to protect the innocent. :) Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 22:30:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: HFCS (was candy Boards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Edwards wrote: >No heat at all is needed - just use cold water and stir Exactly what I was thinking. Thanks for pointing it out pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * *******************************************************