From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Mar 1 09:34:07 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-79.6 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, ADVANCE_FEE_3,AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST, WHY_WAIT autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF28748A98 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 2009 09:34:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n21EGgDw001904 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 2009 09:34:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 09:34:06 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0902D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Status: RO Content-Length: 162471 Lines: 3772 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:41:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Stewart Subject: Number of Bees In California (was: CCD again?) In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10902210902x47b7a638gaa6a2360abd6664@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy Did those Australian imports every make it to California? I am curious if they did, at what price, and in what numbers? I guess I am also interested in how well the quarantine was set up if they did. Many thanks! Richard Stewart Carriage House Farm North Bend, Ohio An Ohio Century Farm Est. 1855 (513) 967-1106 http://www.carriagehousefarmllc.com rstewart@zoomtown.com On Feb 21, 2009, at 12:02 PM, randy oliver wrote: > > Overall, the supply of bees in Calif, which is an indicator of US > supply, > appears to be strong, although this may well be due to decreased > demand due > to water issues. > > There is an ugly price-cutting war on at the last minute here, as > desperate > beekeepers try to get any sort of income off yards of unrented > colonies. > There is a great deal of animosity by California beekeepers (who > depend upon > almond pollination for income) towards out of state beekeepers who are > driving pollination prices down. > > The resentment is that some other states make it difficult for Calif > beekeepers to place bees for summer pasture, yet California allows > any and > all to come crash our party, leave a mess, and stick us with the bill. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:05:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Aussie packages (was Number of Bees In California (was: CCD again?)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >Did those Australian imports every make it to California? Yes, they did. USDA inspectors were waiting at the airport, and checked them, but my reporter didn't know what they inspected for (likely for any sort of mite, hive beetles, or small kangaroos). The price was about the same as last year (depends upon number of pounds of bees in the package (4 and 5 pound packages that I know of). I don't know the numbers. However, since you have brought up the subject, I have been in communication with several Canadians who have experience with large quantities of Aussie packages. What is interesting to me is the different experiences various beekeepers have with the packages. Perhaps it is due to different sources (I personally know two exporters, and think that there is at least a third). Some U.S. beekeepers wax poetic about the packages, others tell tales of woe due to chalkbrood and mite problems, and their spicy temperament, and suggest requeening them (Dennis VanEnglesdorp suggested this at a recent conference). I have no previous experiences with the imports myself, but was put into an interesting situation this spring. One of the importers, knowing full well of my general apprehension about the transportation of bees and their parasites across oceans, donated 20 Aussie packages to me for a test. Since my summer yards have been surrounded by Aussie bees for the past two years, I figured that I had nothing to lose (or any new parasites to gain), and my scientific curiosity told me to gratefully accept. I installed the packages about two weeks ago onto drawn combs, heavy (luckily) with honey stores. It was a cold afternoon, with the temperature was dropping quickly as I installed them. By morning, they had a foot of snow on top of the hives, and then no bee flight weather for 10 days. I was curious as to how summer Aussie bees would perform under this kind of stress. They were taken from a long daylength (equivalent to early August) warm environment, shipped to another hemisphere and a new photoperiod with a several hour jetlag, and dumped onto cold combs in a freezing environment (20F one night), with no flight or brood. This question has been raised before on this List: How do bees respond to turning their world upside down--resetting their internal clock and calendar, coupled with the stress of flight, transport, caging, and temperature regime? This experiment clearly put them under the most stressful change imaginable! Results? When I checked back on them during a break in the weather after 11 days, they were flying like mad for cleansing flights. There were very few dead bees on the bottom boards, the clusters were tight, and the combs I checked had young brood. What I see is that bees are remarkably adaptable creatures. As I've said before, colonies can take transport and change in stride. We shouldn't project our anthropomorphism onto bees. My personal jetlag from a flight to Down Under may not be the same to bees. I'll keep the List up to date with my observations. I doubt that I'll see anything new that previous purchasers of Aussie packages haven't already reported. I just like to see things with my own eyes. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 16:57:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: State eliminates organic certification program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit State eliminates organic certification program Move decried » Utah's program was the only one backed by enforcement powers. > Without knowing how much the state will save, Utah is eliminating its nationally recognized organic certification program that has provided small farmers and processors a niche market. Lewis said that if growers and consumers want the state program to continue, they should contact state lawmakers or the Agriculture Department. > Stephanie Greenwood said that Bubble and Bee Organic, her Utah-based company that makes bath and body products, will have to pay $8,000 to hire a California firm to provide the certification -- compared with $800 the state would have charged. When she completed all the paperwork for state certification in January she received an e-mail informing her that the Utah program had been shut down. > But Clair Allen, director of the Agriculture Department's Plant Industry division, argues that organic businesses make up only a small sector of Utah agricultural industry. "If all farmers went back to organic farming, we'd be starving by now, and that's the reality," he said. "As far as organic certification is concerned, I'd rather cut programs than people." Since Utah implemented its organic program, there has been a change at the state Agriculture Department toward focusing on more conventional farming practices. -- The Salt Lake Tribune ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 21:30:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Truly a visionary state government at work. They have no idea how much money is saved and meanwhile organic food, whether its your cup of tea or not, is experiencing a sales growth rate that many sectors of the economy would be envious of having. (see story below) My own anecdotal observations in my region is that right now in the midst of a deep reccession, sales at local natural food stores & coops (not Whole Foods) have hardly skipped a beat in the last 6 months. Most store buyers I work with say store sales are at or above sales a year ago. The prevailing theory is people are eating out less and then splurging at a store for a nice meal and still saving money. The continual onslaught of food poisoning stories in the mainstream big box store pipeline also are pushing people to think local also. http://planetark.org/enviro-news/item/51387 Jan 29th 2009 LONDON/CHICAGO - As recession drives consumers to cut costs, their commitment to organic food has been tested with sales growth slowing -- but so far, sales are not falling. How green are our wallets? Grown without the use of synthetic fertilizers and pesticides, organic food has been booming, driven by claims it is healthier, tastes better and its production does less damage to the environment than conventional agriculture. The global market for organic food and beverages was worth $22.75 billion in 2007, after more than doubling in five years, according to market research firm Euromonitor International. The United States accounted for about 45 percent of that total. With economies in crisis, the trend is slowing in the United States, Britain, France and Europe's most important market for organic food, Germany. So far, Britain is the market tipped for a fall as shrinking incomes force the newly green to save money. Typical growth rates of 20 to 30 percent for organic food sales in the United States eased in the second half of 2008 as middle- and upper-income families felt the strain of layoffs and declining investment portfolios, said Tom Pirovano, director of industry insights at market research firm The Nielsen Co. Sales in December were up 5.6 percent, year on year, against a 25.6 percent rise a year earlier. Even though growth is slowing, Pirovano noted that most people who purchased organic foods were very committed. "I'm not convinced that we are going to see big declines in organics any time soon," he said. Nielsen data measures packaged foods with bar codes at many retail outlets. Discount retailer Wal-Mart does not participate in the market research. Late on a Friday in London's South Kensington, shoppers at the Whole Foods store owned by the U.S.-based organic and natural foods supermarket were sparse. "I always try to buy organic if I can. But I definitely have cut back," said Mary Boynton, 20, adding that she buys more organic produce from supermarkets which have a cheaper offer. Shares in Whole Foods Market Inc. have been on a broadly weakening trend since 2006 and trades around $11, down from nearly $80 in late 2005. But Michael Besancon of Whole Foods, which claims the world-leading slot in the sector with more than 270 stores in North America and Britain, says there is a hard core. "It is not a fad," said Besancon, the company's senior global vice-president of purchasing, distribution and marketing. "I'm 62 and my mother is still waiting for me to shave my beard and stop eating organic food. That isn't going to happen." Ronnie Cummins, national director of the Organic Consumers Association, said occasional buyers of organic produce were cutting back, but regular buyers were lightening up on processed food in favor of organic whole fruits, vegetables and meats. "They are trying to stretch their money but they are not willing to stop buying organic," he said. "We think in the long run the prognosis is good. The energy crisis and climate change can only really be addressed with organic production." Wholefoods' Besancon argued consumers were treating organic purchases differently from those of other premium products. "When you buy organic you believe it is inherently better for you and the planet," he said. "Who can afford to get sick? So people are becoming more introspective about what they eat. There is growth in the category. It is just less than it was." ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 00:58:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD again? In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10902210902x47b7a638gaa6a2360abd6664@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, I should leave this post alone but will make a few comments. The state of the bee industry is good overall except for a few beeks on the east coast trying to come up with an off label method to use the product in Hivastan. Those beeks which say the product will work are wrong guys. One dumb ---- has lost 90% of his operation using what he was told at the Sacramento meeting . > There is a great deal of animosity by California beekeepers (who depend > upon > almond pollination for income) towards out of state beekeepers who are > driving pollination prices down. Not long ago California beeks told us the price was high due to demand. Why true back then and not now? If the above high price was based on supply and demand then the glut of bees right now would it seem drive the price down. Those California beeks with a signed contract are not complaining. Only the beeks which told the growers they were not sure what the final cost might be are complaining. No contract and hives at half the price available through the newspaper will cause almond growers to seek new beekeepers. Our field run hives ( the hives California beeks say we drop in the field and run) were sold into almonds on a 5 frame average basis and graded by California graders at a 8 frame average. many others are reporting exceptioonal field run bees this year. Word travels fast among almond growers. Even in your articles 2009 was the year a big shortage was to occur as the new plantings were coming on line.Bring out of state hives. No talk of a possible water issue or the effect of todays low almond prices. Extra hives were brought in. Hardly any Australian packages were brought in as most opperations had the best bees in years. In most cases the almond growers are contacting the large beeks and asking for the hives. The large beeks have no idea the name of the former beekeeper which did the pollination last year. Cell phone numbers are being passed around among growers. growers impressed with field run bees are phoning other not under contract growers. I do not want to cause hard feelings with California( C) beeks but what many growers are saying is that the feedlot hives produced by California beeks grade good but do not perform like strong out of state hives moved into almonds. What they say is that the California hives sit waiting for the beek to bring another pollen patty ( one C. beek says he feeds around 14-15 patties before almonds) or gallon of syrup ( one C. beek says he feeds up to 10 gallons of syrup to his bees before almonds) whereas the out of state hives go right to work. I live in the Midwest and when we move cattle into the feedlot the cattle quit grazing and stand by the feeder all day waiting for the next round of feed. Ask any cattle rancher! Not sure how applies to bees but most of us feed the bees diesel fumes between natural sources of feed. I know from my days of open feeding that the bees have a long memory and many times are slow to leave a provided feed source when a natural source becomes available. > > The resentment is that some other states make it difficult for Calif > beekeepers to place bees for summer pasture, yet California allows any and > all to come crash our party, leave a mess, and stick us with the bill. an inconveniate truth: The problem is not out of state beeks as much as the almond growers. Those are the people with the clout in Sacremneto. Why are those growers not loyal to you? Ask yourself why they are jumping ship? You charge pollination fees higher than any other in the U.S. and then pollinate apples , peaches and other crops right after almonds for 20-35 bucks. > > I am simply reporting the opinions of others--they do not necessarily > reflect the opinions of management, staff, or sponsors, and we are not > directly pointing any fingers at my friend Bob Harrison, whose name has > not > been changed to protect the innocent. :) In agriculture you never count your chickens before they are hatched. Same way in commercial beekeeping. Each year is different. A quiet push was made to open the Mexican border in 2009. Did not happen. I predict will happen before long and under WTO rules will open. I personally do not want the Mexican border opened and have said so for years. My point is that this years supply and demand issue causing problems is a small issue for California beeks compared to what it will be like in almonds should the Mexican border open. Not sure of exact figures today but the California almond pollination *party* takes a million hives of which around 400,000 are provided by California beeks. As soon as the larger number of hives going into almonds became the out of state beeks then C. beeks lost control of the *party*. Many C. beeks claim to *understand* the *party* but I think many of those complaining are do not really understand the game. In poker you only count your money when the dealing is done. In Chess you NEVER underestimate your opponent. My advice to C. beeks for 2110 is to get a iron clad contract. Set a price you can live with before almonds. agree to bring in a strength you are sure you can provide. If you sign for 8 frames and you turn up with less then the grower can get out of the contract. We saw a problem coming and went in at last years prices. No 2009 price increase. Not knowing what the bees would look like coming out of the Midwest in January most signed a 5 frame average contract. Most brought 8 frame and were paid for 5. Hive available for almonds were not sent due to the glut. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 21:28:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >Truly a visionary state government at work. Brian, the vision that they are missing is not so much the sales at organic markets, but rather that organic farmers are a model for the future when the price of petroleum rises, and the cost for nitrogen fertilizer, heavy tillage, and long distance transportation skyrocket. The organic growers are examples for future sustainability. I've read the Calif Farm Bureau newspaper weekly for years, and see the entire ag industry slowly adopting methods first embraced by organic farmers, that have now become cost effective. The same may apply to beekeeping. I strongly support the organic beekeepers, since they are the testing ground for methods that we may all use in the future. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:38:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: State eliminates organic certification program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy wrote: >>>> The organic growers are examples for future sustainability. I've read the Calif Farm Bureau newspaper weekly for years, and see the entire ag industry slowly adopting methods first embraced by organic farmers, that have now become cost effective. >>>>>> If only this could be true. I doubt we'll ever get the toothpaste back in the tube because of the very immensity of agriculture. If a farmer decides to forgo one crop a year and plant a green manure crop and plow it under, it's the equivalent of taking half or a third of his land out of production. An organic farmer being small, might do this. Scale it up to a company that owns a million acres and stockholders start to squawk. Meanwhile the competition has chemistry working for it. Have you heard about chemigation? Putting pesticides in the irrigation water? But I may be wrong. What organic practices do you see that would work in a commercial operation? Dick ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:59:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program In-Reply-To: <000101c995b3$ad0c2a30$07247e90$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have you heard about chemigation? > Putting pesticides in the irrigation water? Chemigation with neonicotinoids is a known problem for bees but kept very quiet by the makers/sellers. Bees get water from these sitting pools of water. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:13:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Stewart Subject: Re: Aussie packages In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10902221105j74551ad6ga94088ab82340f5a@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy, thank for very much for the detailed reply. My follow up question then is how do the Aussie packages impact the dynamics of hauling bees to California? I am not a pollinator myself and have been working on a business model that focuses purely on a local/regional range, so I am asking purely out of interest as a beekeeper and beekeeping in the United States. Do the numbers coming in from overseas and across border impact the migratory folks? My point is that IF the number of Aussie bees displace the migratory folks at any level its sounds as if Americans are being pitted against Americans in attempt to squeeze every drop of profit from what ever the business is. I hate to sound protectionist, but with all the POSSIBLE risks, why are beekeepers attacking themselves as opposed to attacking the system? I understand why folks are angry with the long distance haulers that show up with no contracts, but why not the importing of bees when we have plenty of American beekeepers willing to do the job? Just a curious question. BTW, I hope to get a chance to hear you speak this Saturday in Indianapolis and thanks for taking so much of the research you are doing regardless of scale on your own shoulders. Cheers! Richard Stewart Carriage House Farm North Bend, Ohio An Ohio Century Farm Est. 1855 (513) 967-1106 http://www.carriagehousefarmllc.com rstewart@zoomtown.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:22:38 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chemigation is putting pesticides into water. From what I've learned: 1) it can be combinations of chemicals, 2) drip systems leak, 3) bees collect water at leaks, and 4) its no secret - after all, the method even has a name. Apparently, almost anything can be applied this way, including fertilizers, pesticides. One would hope that there are warnings about combining chemicals - the synergisms could be interesting, if not worrisome. I can see the cost benefit to the grower - just add it to the irrigation water. But, this could make for new routes of exposure to bees. Jerry **************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your neighborhood today. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000004) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:42:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:38:48 -0500, Dick Marron wrote: >But I may be wrong. What organic practices do you see that would work in a commercial operation? I have said this before but it bears repeating. The organic beekeeping rules in this country are based on having the bees working pesticide-free forage. If beekeepers believe that commercial farming practices are harming their bees, they should move the bees away from these areas. This will have at least two effects. One, beekeepers can see for themselves if the problems they are having are caused by commercial farming -- or not -- if they are not anywhere near these areas. Secondly, due to the lack of bees to pollinate, farmers will have to rent bees and the beekeeper can either put into the contract what can and cannot be sprayed while they are there, or else adjust the pollination fee to offset whatever losses are incurred performing the service. What you don't want is a war between beekeepers and farmers, as Dr. Medhat Nasr so effectively pointed out this weekend at the SABA Seminar. If the future is some form or variation of organic and/or sustainable model of agriculture, we have to go there together. You can't force your mindset on the rest of the population, they have to be won over but effective arguments. One of the things we now have that is weakening our case is heavy dependence on chemicals to control our pests. The farmers know this and they are perfectly justified in pointing this out. How can we condemn them for using any means possible to be productive and make a living, if the beekeeping industry is doing the exact same thing? Put your own house in order, get it right, set an example. Don't look for somebody else to blame for all your problems, who wants to hear that anyway? pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:32:57 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/02/2009 12:40:49 GMT Standard Time, dickm@SNET.NET writes: But I may be wrong. What organic practices do you see that would work in a commercial operation? Simple crop rotation to avoid pest build up; undersowing with legumes to provide nitrogen; folding livestock (eg poultry) on land between crops to de-weed and de-seed as well as manuring spring to mind immediately. I am sure there are others. These simple practices would very much reduce if not eliminate the need for aggressive weed control; and also provide some much-needed forage for honey bees and other pollinators and all the wildlife that live off them. The farmer might produce marginally less but on the other hand his inputs should also be less and so there is scope for a balancing act. Also the farmer wouldn't have all his eggs in one basket so that if one crop failed or there was a glut in the market reducing prices, then he would have a chance of making up the difference from another crop from his farm. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:48:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: CCD again? In-Reply-To: <8C57C6E3CBA84356854BE4A340F93CFB@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you for the informative post, Bob! >Those California beeks with a signed contract are not complaining. Actually, they are. Loudly. Even those with signed contracts are getting strong pressure and/or threats about next year from the growers. Forcing them to lower prices at the last minute. A number have had the growers back out of contracts, due to water issues. A big problem is the "handshake" contracts, between longtime grower/beekeeper "partners." A number of beeks who had already placed bees in the orchard have had a grower tell them to move them out because they could get cheaper bees elsewhere. I personally have an orchard that I've pollinated for 20 years. Great bees every year, no problems. The contract needs to be approved by a board of directors, and I normally don't get it returned into my hand until after move in. This year the board played hardball after I had already placed the bees, with the trees already coming into bloom! So much for trust. > >I do not want to cause hard feelings with California( C) beeks but what > many growers are saying is that the feedlot hives produced by California > beeks grade good but do not perform like strong out of state hives moved > into almonds. I'd like to see supporting data on this--I will ask Dr Frank Eischen. One difference that I've noticed is that bees brought in from cold winter areas at the last minute quickly shift to the California "spring" and start foraging madly. I prefer to leave my own colonies in cold winter areas for that reason. So your observation may be more due to acclimatization of the colonies, rather than feeding. > >What they say is that the California hives sit waiting for the beek to > bring another pollen patty...whereas the out of state hives go right to > work. This observation may be due to the fact that those feeding at the last minute are often doing it to try to boost the strength of weak colonies, or those with few honey stores. > > >I live in the Midwest and when we move cattle into the feedlot the cattle > quit grazing and stand by the feeder all day waiting for the next round of > feed. Ask any cattle rancher! I'd be careful about projecting bovine behavior onto bees! :) > > > >Not sure how applies to bees but most of us feed the bees diesel fumes > between natural sources of feed. Ditto here! > > >> >The resentment is that some other states make it difficult for Calif >> beekeepers to place bees for summer pasture, yet California allows any and >> all to come crash our party, leave a mess, and stick us with the bill. >> > > >an inconveniate truth: The complaint was not about the competition--it was about the lack of reciprocity. Calif makes it easy for beeks to come in to compete for pollination contracts (spring forage), but other states make it hard for Calif beeks to go there for summer pasture. And yes, we Calif beeks pick up virtually every new parasite from out of staters. > >In agriculture you never count your chickens before they are hatched. Actually, you do. It's called the futures market. Designed to provide stability in agricultural markets. Signed contracts well in advance, totally transparent, so that buyers and producers can see the real price of producing a commodity, averaged over all areas. Broker Joe Traynor provides such a market, with his June pricing for pollination contracts far enough in advance so that beekeepers can make management decisions as to whether they should invest in preparing colonies for pollination. > > >Many C. beeks claim to *understand* the *party* but I think many of those > complaining are do not really understand the game. The complaining is about the reneging on contracts by the growers. The breaking of agreed-upon rules. This pushed desperate out of staters on a rush to the bottom for rental prices. The growers are in a different position than beekeepers. A grower can sit on his nuts (no pun intended) if the price isn't right--the "utility" is not time sensitive. A beekeeper who provides pollination has a very time-sensitive utility. The value goes from the "going price" to zero in about a week. A grower can make investment in the orchard, based upon knowing that the price of almonds will not likely drop below the break even point. The beekeeper does not have that luxury, and can easily lose money on colonies built up for, and moved to, the orchards. > > >My advice to C. beeks for 2110 is to get a iron clad contract. Set a price > you can live with before almonds. agree to bring in a strength you are sure > you can provide. If you sign for 8 frames and you turn up with less then the > grower can get out of the contract. Bob, this is excellent advice, and I agree wholeheartedly. And push to get a signed contract early, like in November. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:00:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Aussie packages In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >Do the numbers coming in from overseas and across border impact the > migratory folks? I don't think they do to any extent. The price is not competitive. If the going price for strong colonies drops to $125, the Aussie packages will be priced out of the market for almond pollination. However, beekeepers who have suffered major losses, may find Aussie packages to be a potential resource for restocking their colonies early in the season. > > > >BTW, I hope to get a chance to hear you speak this Saturday in > Indianapolis and thanks for taking so much for the research you are doing > regardless of scale on your own shoulders. Thanks, Richard! If this rain continues, I may be worrying about my bees starving in the orchards when I am in Indiana! :( Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:08:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program In-Reply-To: <000101c995b3$ad0c2a30$07247e90$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >But I may be wrong. What organic practices do you see that would work in a > commercial operation? Hi Dick, I would like to keep the tone of this discussion civil. In respectful answer to your question: Reduced tillage, winter cover crops to avoid erosion, green manures being more cost effective than nitrogen fertilizers, hedgerows for beneficials, IPM management using fewer pesticides, pheromone traps, biocontrols, use of pest-resistant varieties, the list goes on.... I see all of these methods being used more and more by conventional growers in Calif, and promoted as mainstream. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:23:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >Simple crop rotation to avoid pest build up [and the building of soil > fertility];...as well as manuring > Thanks, Chris. Surprising that I missed these. I was so focused on California, that I completely forgot about my summer pastures in Nevada. Large-scale commercial agriculture is practiced there, using the above two practices on a regular basis. Last season, when I had a putative pesticide kill, and went around talking to the farmers, I was surprised at how many of them had forsworn pesticides completely! These were salt-of-the-Earth, conservative, multigeneraltional farmers, who didn't consider themselves to be "organic" in any way. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:47:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: State eliminates organic certification program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is not well known outside of Farmers Market literature, but today there are corporate organizations with thousands of acres that are organically certified. California clearly leads the way in these regards, but others are quickly following suit. *Most* certified organic producers spray to control insects and fungus, although the poisons and fungicides are far less effective than those used by conventional farmers. Here in upstate NY most certified organic producers run fewer than 50 acres in crops and a great many run fewer than 20 acres. Many formerly-certified organic producers have dropped their certification, primarily because of the high fees, and many have found that their customers 'trust' them as being 'no or low spray' and, regardless, prefer to buy from producers rather than the grocery stores. It is possible to modestly support a family on 20 acres of vegetables sold at Farmers Markets and through CSA's. Some, but fewer and fewer, are staying with the historic definitions of Organic as 'no spray' and are refusing to adopt the spray techniques and formulas developed in states such as California. This can play well in NYS, with relatively high paid and urban customers, but I have to wonder how it plays in states with a greater association with rural life. In addition to producing honey, we produce commercial quantities of raspberries. We never spray and charge unbelievably high (but competitive) prices. I am annually amazed at how important it is to our customers that we don't use any spray. Lloyd ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:48:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst writes: “One of the things we now have that is weakening our case is heavy dependence on chemicals to control our pests. The farmers know this and they are perfectly justified in pointing this out. How can we condemn them for using any means possible to be productive and make a living, if the beekeeping industry is doing the exact same thing” Peter and all, It seems to me there is a difference between the beekeeping model and the commercial agriculture model as they pertain to chemical use. One; use of chemicals seems to be reaching a point of diminishing returns for some beekeepers and maybe even some commercial beekeepers have reached this conclusion. Large scale commercial farmers haven’t reached this point yet and they probably won’t unless consumers stop buying their products which they might. Two; the chemicals beekeepers use seem to adversely effect mainly themselves, hence the diminishing returns. The adverse effects of using chemical pesticides and fertilizers by large commercial farmers are more widespread and effect people other than themselves. It has been pointed out ad nauseum here on this list that beekeepers are vulnerable to the bad practices and maybe even some of the legal practices of farmers who use chemical insecticides. If and to the extent that this is true, then beekeepers are justified in condemning these practices. I agree, though that it is counter productive to condemn and just leave it at that. An atmosphere of cooperation must be maintained. And of course being open to compromise is essential in this regard. Steve Noble ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:02:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:48:31 -0500, Steve Noble wrote: >It seems to me there is a difference between the beekeeping model and the >commercial agriculture model as they pertain to chemical use. I don't think so. To me pest control is not either organic or chemical; it is a continuum. Everyone who controls any sort of pest lies somewhere on this continuum at some point. IPM is about locating on the continuum at the point where costs and safety balance. Necessarily this point moves about as conditions change. Farmers in general see the benefit of IPM in the use of less chemicals as it may be cheaper to do without. Overuse of chemicals also reduces their effectiveness, hence the need to use pest controls tactically rather than as a blanket. > Two; the chemicals beekeepers use seem to adversely affect mainly themselves, hence the diminishing returns. Excuse me, but what about chemicals in the honey? -- not to mention the loss of bees as pollinators if the beekeepers themselves are actually to blame for CCD as some (not I) have suggested. Seriously, I want US beekeepers and US farmers to succeed. I already buy plenty of foreign produce and I enjoy those products. But I DO NOT want to see the day arrive where I can't get a NY State apple -- or jars of local basswood and buckwheat honey. I want NYS cheese, sweet corn, etc. NYS red wine isn't there yet, but if we end up getting hot dry summers due to global warming, it could improve. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:59:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD again? In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10902230848j891d381m523f985dbc2ac34e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Randy & All, Just to show how far eaching a glut of bees in almonds can effect . For sale. 10 semi loads of singles which were headed for almonds. All in brand new equipment (tops, bottoms ,frames and drawn out foundation) No chemicals used. Cash or wire transfer only. The last semi load when weighed gave an average weight of 77 pounds per hive. These went into almonds and graded 8 frames or better. Will need split or a second box in a couple weeks. No disappointments! Prefer to sell in semi loads but might consider smaller numbers of 100 hives and up. These are available now in central Florida. We will load and net using your equipment. new six way pallets available for these at extra charge. email me direct if interested. We have second boxes for these and will most likely remove from *for sale* in a few weeks and use for production hives if not sold or add the price of the second box.. Why wait for packages in middle April or nucs last of April? Buy strong singles in February in all new equipment needing split. Current price $150 each in semi lots. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:36:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: State eliminates organic certification program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>> Hi Dick, I would like to keep the tone of this discussion civil. In respectful answer to your question: >>>>>> I nearly fell off my chair when I read this. I went back to my post to re-read it. I told you what I thought in reply to what you thought. I couldn't find anything uncivil. You on the other hand slapped me by calling ME uncivil. The list has had enough of this. Please don't characterize me again. End. Dick ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:18:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Smith Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organic certs are quite hard to regulate, hence, questions about whether organic farmers are truly organic becomes one of trust. In addition, many inputs that are classified organic are more toxic to you, your bees and the environment than commercially developed pesticides. Certifiers pretty much set their own standards, being accountable to (mostly) USDA, and you will find a wide range of requirements, differing significantly from each other in terms of allowable products used, management of pesticide use (yes, pesticide use is allowed by some certifiers in specific ways), and in their ability to inspect each operation to insure compliance. I agree with Randy about the benefits that are being adopted by regular farmers, but please remember, many of these practices were developed by our ancestors and were considered standard operating procedures at that time. No farmer I know spends money just for the fun of it. If an effective safer/perception of safer alternative is available, most will adopt it. You should all read approved products list put out by the certifiying agencies, it makes for surprising reading! Jim Smith Tulelake, CA State of Jefferson ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:16:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Honey from China MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in possession of a 12 oz. container of honey said to be from the Mongolia region of China. It is a sample of honey held for sale by Mega Farm US in Rowland Heights CA 91748. That is not too far from Los Angeles. It is water white and is offered for sale at $.89 a lb in barrels, FOB Rowland Heights. I am willing to share a sample with anyone willing to have it analyzed and report the result to this group. As I only have 12 oz., amounts for any single person will have to be limited. Has anyone had prior experience with this company, or know anything about them? Lloyd ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:49:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Honey from China Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > 100% USDA Certified Organic Honey from Mongolia. Right. I wonder who's checking. But then, we may as well trust them. This is what they say: > Here are the facts about our products which constitute with our pride. > All our products are imported from the natural resources and clean country side of China. are manually selected the best quality, and packed by our experience produce packers to make sure the freshness food serve on your table. In order to ensure germination and mold free products, the temperature is strictly monitored and well kept controlled from the original farm to our cold storage warehouse. Quality is the rule of thumb first priority of our business. http://megafarmus.com/products.aspx ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:31:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program In-Reply-To: <002901c995e5$a1a256b0$e4e70410$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >You on the other hand slapped me by calling ME uncivil. Huh? I called you no such thing. You posted: >"If only this [what Randy said] could be true." >"But I may be wrong." I didn't want to say anything that made you wrong, so I submitted a respectful answer. No insult nor characterization intended. I think highly of your posts. My sincerest apologies. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:18:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim Smith stated: “In addition, many inputs that are classified organic are more toxic to you, your bees and the environment than commercially developed pesticides.” Jim, I would sure like to see some specifics to back that statement up. I’m frankly a little skeptical, but am open to being convinced with some good facts. Steve Noble ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:55:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: nasinov -- Little Wolf Apiaries -our bees get all the attraction Subject: Honey from China MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings: not only from China but I read some labels here in a Fortinos store today no name brand by Lablaws and the Labonti label get this -- packed in Australia contents- Australian and Canadian honey blend so who up here in Canada is selling so cheap that the Ossies buy it to blen= d with their own and ship it up here again? price $4.50 to $4.95 for 375= g Walter _________________________________________________________________ So many new options=2C so little time. Windows Live Messenger. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx= ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:18:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Smith Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No problem--try nicotine. Just for an example. I would be glad to post more examples if you are interested. James E Smith ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:41:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Smith Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program In-Reply-To: <7FBD696A9F9543478DB01E4529424FEF@jimji6rjlhoevb> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My apologies. Here is a link to one of the common product lists. http://www.omri.org/OMRI_products_list.php Jim Smith Tuelake, CA State of Jefferson ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:06:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Townsend Organization: TPLR Honey Farms Ltd. Subject: Re: Honey from China In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > but I read some labels here in a Fortinos store today > no name brand by Lablaws and the Labonti label > get this -- packed in Australia > contents- Australian and Canadian honey blend > so who up here in Canada is selling so cheap that the Ossies buy it to blend with their own and ship it up here again? price $4.50 to $4.95 for 375g > > Walter > > Walter: There has been alot of western Canadian honey shipped to Australia over the past few years, its cheaper to ship in a container from Alberta to Australia, than a truck load of honey from Alberta to Quebec, and the honey isn't being sold cheap, they are paying the market price or above. 90% of my honey went to Capilano to be packed in Quebec for their creamed product, and they paid higher than anyone else was last fall. Tim Townsend ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 00:18:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:18:29 -0500, Steve Noble wrote: ” > >Jim, I would sure like to see some specifics to back that statement up. >I’m frankly a little skeptical, but am open to being convinced with some >good facts. Spinosad would be one that comes to mind for me - highly toxic to bees - there's some postings in the archive. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:43:52 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Buntine Subject: Re: Aussie packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard Stewart wrote: > but why not the importing of bees when we have plenty of American > beekeepers willing to do the job? Down Under we are fed what we call "Furphies" by whatever government is in power. Federal or State, Liberal or Labour. If we want to forbid importation of honey, hogs or herefords we need first to prove that the exporting country has a disease that we do not have. This means of course, that all yet to be discovered diseases are given free and permanent residence. I would have thought we were the only country to have a "innocent to proven guilty" philosophy for non-human organisms. Obviously not. Seemingly a Green Card is given to all undiscovered Oz-organisms that just happen accompany our packages of bees. Bob Buntine Avenel Honey Farm Avenel Victoria Oz ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 06:59:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just two items listed in "Approved Organic Pesticides, OMRI Listed and NY REG" Azadirachtin (121701) Clarified Hydrophobic Extract of Neem Oil (025007) Fact Sheet These two active ingredients are derived from the oil found in neem tree seeds. Humans have used this naturally-occurring oil for millennia for medicinal, cosmetic, and pesticidal purposes. When used in pesticide products, both azadirachtin and clarified hydrophobic extract of neem oil can be applied to many food and non-food crops indoors and outdoors to control certain insects and related pests. Adverse effects are not expected to humans, wildlife, or the environment when products containing these active ingredients are used according to label directions. Labels direct users not to contaminate water and not to apply when honeybees are actively visiting flowers in the area. Active Ingredient Name: Azadirachtin OPP Chemical Code: 121701 (CAS # 11141-17-6) Active Ingredient Name: Clarified Hydrophobic Extract of Neem Oil OPP Chemical Code: 25007 (CAS # 8002-65-1) Azadirachtin and Clarified Hydrophobic Extract of Neem Oil are derived from the natural oil found in seeds of the neem tree, Azadirachta indica A.Juss, which is native to arid regions of India. The ability of the oil to repel pests has been known for thousands of years; the oil also has been used on skin and medicinally. When the natural neem oil is removed from the seeds and treated with alcohol, virtually all of the azadirachtin and related substances separate from the oil itself. The remaining oil - without the azadirachtin - is called Clarified Hydrophobic Extract of Neem Oil. Azadirachtin acts in the following ways: It deters certain insects, such as locusts, from feeding and it interferes with the normal life cycle of insects, including feeding, molting, mating, and egg laying. Use Sites: Food and non-food plants; ornamentals; commercial and residential indoor and outdoor sites. Target pests: Both active ingredients: Many kinds of insects, including whiteflies and moth larvae, as well as mites, aphids, and related organisms. Assessing Risks to the Environment When used as directed on product labels, neither clarified hydrophobic extract of neem oil nor azadirachtin are expected to harm non-target organisms. The substances are found in the environment, where they degrade naturally. However, product labels direct users not to apply the products directly to water, not to contaminate water during cleaning or disposal activities, and not to apply when honeybees are actively foraging. * * * Rotenone Use of rotenone in organic production In organic production, the use of rotenone is permitted as an insecticide under European Union Regulation 2092/91, amended by 1488/97, Annex II (B)(16). In response to a recent study linking rotenone to Parkinson’s Disease(17), the UK Soil Association put a temporary ban on its use, pending further investigations. Acute toxicity Rotenone is classified by the World Health Organisation as a moderately hazardous, Class II(18). The LD50 for rats (the amount of the chemical lethal to one-half of experimental animals) is between 132 and 1,500 mg per kilogram(19). One factor in this wide variation may be the differences in the plant extracts used(20). The acute oral toxicity of rotenone is moderate for mammals, but there is a wide variation between species(21). It is less toxic for the mouse and hamster than for the rat; the pig seems to be especially sensitive. Recent studies have shown that in rats, rotenone is more toxic for females than males. It is highly irritating to the skin in rabbits(22), and to the eyes. In rats and dogs exposed to rotenone in dust form, the inhalation fatal dose was uniformly smaller than the oral fatal dose(23). Rotenone is believed to be moderately toxic to humans with an oral lethal dose estimated from 300 to 500 mg/kg(24). A lowest lethal dose of 143 mg/kg has been cited in a child(25). Clinical experience seems to indicate that children, in particular, are rather sensitive to the acute effects of rotenone(26). Water Rotenone is highly toxic to fish: most values for the 96 hour LC50 (lethal concentration required to kill half the test organisms) for different fish species and for daphnids (water fleas) lie in the range of 0.02 to 0.2 mg/litre. If used as a piscicide, it may also cause a temporary decrease in numbers of other aquatic organisms(40). There is considerable controversy over the use of rotenone to kill non-game fish in water body management areas. One study found that the practice has a substantially harmful effect on biodiversity, in which several populations of the native fish showed negligible signs of recovering stocks, while populations of all exotic species are up(41). Food residues Rotenone is not included in regulatory food residue programmes, and therefore no data is available. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 06:13:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T'N'T Apiaries Subject: Re: Honey from China MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Australian and Canadian honey blend >so who up here in Canada is selling so cheap that the Ossies buy it The two questions in Canadian commercial circles have been: How "CHEAP" is the Aussie honey? & Is it really Aussie honey? Dave Tharle Ardmore, AB ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 09:44:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10902230908g1b6f9519sa9f2ed4e2728299@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reduced tillage, winter cover crops to avoid erosion, green manures being > more cost effective than nitrogen fertilizers, hedgerows for beneficials, > IPM management using fewer pesticides, pheromone traps, biocontrols, use of > pest-resistant varieties, the list goes on.... Most of these were around long before the organic movement and practiced by farmers. IPM was just not named that but was more by observation. Pheromone traps were more home made of sugar and other ingredients in an old tin can on the tree. I do disagree that green manures are more cost effective than fertilizer, but they were around in Biblical times. As were fish in corn hills, an early fertlizer. The shift from them came about because of the increase in farm size and the labor saving use of fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides to produce food cheaply. Because of pests, you can figure output from an organic field will be much less then a commercial field of the same size. Figure in increased labor costs and you quickly enter the area of bankruptcy. It all gets down to cost. Organic food costs more to produce and therefore cost more to buy. So far, the marketplace seems to be stuck at about the 20% point for sales. The shopper compares price and those who can afford it or are organically committed will buy organic. The rest of us trust the USDA (who also set the organic standards) to provide wholesome food, which they do. Just about every test conduced by Consumer's Reports give passing marks to our food, and shows that even organically certified foods can show pesticide residue, with the sensitive testing we now have. I practice organic farming and use zero pesticides, but I also inform friends who pick them that my corn and apples will contain less than 20% moving protein. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 09:47:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Stewart Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think people seem to confuse organic agriculture (which is mostly industrial farming done differently) and a sustainable natural system of farming often referred to as permaculture these days. Whatever organic was back in the 60s and 70s was transformed into a massively costly and fragile system that requires almost as much fossil fuel input (in some cases more) as standard commercial farming. Organic free range chickens are still packed on top of each other, organic free range cattle are still kept on feed lots, and there are massive plots of monocrop greens and carrots and whatever. As both a farmer and a beekeeper who practices both GMO market crop farming and sustainable produce farming I can say that I am not too sure if there is an answer to the problem. The main problem is meeting a demand and greed both on the seller and the consumer. Cheap food breeds a cheap food culture and it becomes a cycle. I think the only way to exact a certain level of change is to change the pricing structure. Make food cost more. Eating habits will change. Demand will lessen, local farmers and region farmers will be better capable of meeting demands and what they are unable to produce for national larger farms will be able to meet the demand without having to rely on a ridiculously cheap foreign supplier of questionable quality. I have no clue how you achieve this type of change except by educating people what is good and what isn't. That is a tough thing to do, but possible, at least locally and on a small scale. Organic these days simply means a tax you pay to enable you to place a label on a product to sell at a higher price. That is TRULY what it is. There are changes, don't get me wrong, but it is by no means sustainable. No different than honey really. The demand for honey in this country means honey gets cheaper (even though we have seen a rise recently) because we beekeepers are get dumped on, when it should mean the opposite. Organic honey for .89 cents a pound. Utter rubbish and an insult if you ask me. Their beekeepers should be making more and we should be competing fairly and at a fair price. The cheaper it gets the higher the demand and the more crap comes in....the more fraud and the more hazards we see effecting our people. Richard Stewart Carriage House Farm North Bend, Ohio An Ohio Century Farm Est. 1855 (513) 967-1106 http://www.carriagehousefarmllc.com rstewart@zoomtown.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:38:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Things conventional farming (IPM) has learned from organic farming: > Preventive, cultural, and physical methods, must be the first choice for pest and disease control. Things organic farming has learned from conventional farming: > All pesticides must be used according to their label, otherwise it may result in an illegal residue on the food crop. WHAT ARE THE RULES FOR USE OF ORGANIC MATERIALS? Organic growers must use products that meet the requirements of USDA’s National Organic Program (NOP) as established at 7CFR Part 205. Ingredients found in farm input products for crop or livestock production must either be a natural substance, or a synthetic substance that is included on the National List (included in the regulations at 7CFR 205.600 - 205.607). A few natural substances are also specifically prohibited. Inert ingredients used in pesticides (ingredients other than pesticides) must be considered by the U.S. EPA to be inerts of minimal risk (EPA List 4A or 4B). Materials used for disease and insect control are also subject to further restriction by NOP rules which require that preventive, cultural, and physical methods, including introduction of beneficial insects must be the first choice for pest and disease control. If those methods are not effective, a botanical, biological or synthetic substance on the National List may be used, if the conditions for this use are documented in the organic farm plan. This requirement reflects an historic organic practice that relies primarily on the use of biological and cultural practices such as crop rotation; diversification; habitat management; beneficial organism releases; sanitation; and timing before resorting to a limited use of permitted pest control substances. Finally, all pesticides must be used according to their label as required by EPA and state regulations. Label instructions include directions for use and rate of application as well as permitted crops and designated target species. It is important to use products only on labeled crops, because otherwise use of the product may result in an illegal residue on the food crop. -- http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pp/resourceguide/index.php ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:50:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program In-Reply-To: <3FA36DBD-1982-42D8-8D12-073D31E6D942@zoomtown.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cheap food breeds a cheap food culture and it becomes a cycle. I think the > only way to exact a certain level of change is to change the pricing > structure. Make food cost more. Eating habits will change. Demand will > lessen, local farmers and region farmers will be better capable of meeting > demands and what they are unable to produce for national larger farms will > be able to meet the demand without having to rely on a ridiculously cheap > foreign supplier of questionable quality. This was one of the plans during the great depression and made a bad situation worse. Still exists, but paid not to plant now. If current climate trends continue, we are heading into a Maunder Minimum so food will become less available and cost more, so just sit back and wait Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:41:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Smith Subject: Re: State eliminates organic certification program In-Reply-To: <3FA36DBD-1982-42D8-8D12-073D31E6D942@zoomtown.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You may find it interesting that a California organic grower surrounded by conventional farmers has sued the most likely applicator of pesticides on the surrounding farms for contaminating his organic crop...and he won a huge settlement. No laws were broken and no regulatory action was taken. How about that for a precedent. Most regulations require buffers between conventional and organic to be maintained by the organic grower, and since drift is illegal..... ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 08:57:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Spoon full of honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A recent issue of Consumer Reports on Health dispelled the myth that cough syrup was good for 18 and under to quell coughs. Instead they said that two teaspoons of honey are more effective at stopping coughs and may have an anti viral effect. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:57:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: nasinov -- Little Wolf Apiaries -our bees get all the attraction Subject: pollen question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings all: simply put=2C=20 if a deep frame were packed full of pollen both sides - no honey how much on average would the bee bread itself without the frame weigh ? if you have the answer =2C then broken down=2C what would an everage size p= lug of the stuff weigh? =20 and where did you find this information? I asked this of two people directly who are connected to bee-l and very kno= wledgeable but had no answer. Thanks Walter _________________________________________________________________ How fun is this? IMing with Windows Live Messenger just got better. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx= ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 02:57:02 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Maunder Minimun: Global Cooling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If current climate trends continue, we are heading into a Maunder Minimum so food will become less available and cost more, so just sit back and wait Bill T, Are the bees adapting at a fast enough pace? Would bee decline be related to this adaptation? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:29:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Maunder Minimun: Global Cooling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hola Juanse > Are the bees adapting at a fast enough pace? I have bees adapted to the Scottish climate, if that helps anyone. However I fear that predictions of a mini-Maunder are much exaggerated: http://blogs.nature.com/news/thegreatbeyond/2008/10/minimaunder_minimum.html .... and so I may looking south for my adapted stocks in the coming years and decades, should my bees not evolve fast enough. all the best Gavin ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:38:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Re: weight of bee bread In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:57:29 -0500 > From: nasinov -- Little Wolf Apiaries > > if a deep frame were packed full of pollen both sides - no honey > how much on average would the bee bread itself without the frame > weigh Walter, While I don't have the answer the majority of the weight would be due to water. Pollen is very light when dry & so my guess would be the water content of the sample would make up the majority of the weight. So the answer would greatly be affected by ambient humidity & condition of the bee bread--& thus condition of the colony (assuming the sample were removed from a colony for immediate measurement. A very difficult measurement. One could guestimate by pulling a plug, weighing it & then counting cells! Mike ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:29:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Wing Muscle and heat generation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is the dutty of heat generation age related, or during the winter cluster most of the bees use their wing muscle for that dutty? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:48:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Maunder Minimun: Global Cooling In-Reply-To: <873300.46937.qm@web86201.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > However I fear that predictions of a mini-Maunder are much exaggerated: > > > http://blogs.nature.com/news/thegreatbeyond/2008/10/minimaunder_minimum.html http://www.intellicast.com/Community/Content.aspx?ref=rss&a=167 Another view. The underlying assumption that the sun is a non player in GW tends to eliminate all past history of its primary influence. But then, it is a bothersome thing and does not help the theory along. I tend to attach more credibility to the climate scientists that allow that there is uncertainty than those who proclaim it "settled science". Especially since we just set an all time record State low temp of -50F this year. The Farmer's Almanac predicted a cold winter in the central states and GW predicted warmer. Guess which was right. My bet is on cooling over the next several decades, which would follow the historical record. The sun operates in cycles and there appears to be some fairly short and long harmonics that can add to or decerease its output over long periods of time. We are right at the time for a significant minimum and sunspot activity is at a minimum for the longest period since about 1900. Few sunspots=cooler sun= cooler earth. Bees are very adaptable. What Maine may be looking at is still a much milder environment than what some of our Canadian neighbors endure right now, so the bees will do fine. We might not. If I am wrong, then that is much better since my home when I was young was Key West and would enjoy swimming in the ocean again. Not as enjoyable in Maine in the summer. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:59:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: a e Subject: Anise Hyssop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Aaron, Do you know of anyone on the list who is growing Anise Hyssop as a nectar plant for his bees? Sincerely, Abbas ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:55:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Anise Hyssop In-Reply-To: <200902270159.n1R1oUS2010869@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Abbas, Off the top of my head I do not know anyone in particular who is growing Anise Hyssop as a nectar plant for their bees. The question rang some bells, but I realized the presentation I was thinking of was Dr. Marion Ellis presenting on lavender in France. Perhaps it was a test patch at Cornell University that I recall? Or an article by George Ayers? Again, bells are ringing, but not loudly. Perhaps someone will recollect better than I. Aaron Morris - thinking tell a lie and your tongue will turn black! ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:16:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: THOmas WAGNER Subject: Re: Anise Hyssop In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA34107565EDC@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I tried a large patch of anise hysop and all it attracted was bumble bee's = and other smaller bees, but not honey bees, perhaps there was a better nect= ar source for the honey bees elsewhere.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 tom --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Aaron Morris wrote: From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Anise Hyssop To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 8:55 PM Hi Abbas, Off the top of my head I do not know anyone in particular who is growing Anise Hyssop as a nectar plant for their bees. The question rang some bells, but I realized the presentation I was thinking of was Dr. Marion Ellis presenting on lavender in France. Perhaps it was a test patch at Cornell University that I recall? Or an article by George Ayers? Again, bells are ringing, but not loudly. Perhaps someone will recollect better than I. Aaron Morris - thinking tell a lie and your tongue will turn black! ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:34:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: a e Subject: Anise Hyssop In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA34107565EDC@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Aaron, Thanks for your very fast reply. I hope that someone on the list is growing it. Sincerely, Abbas --- you wrote: > Hi Abbas, > > Off the top of my head I do not know anyone in particular > who is growing > Anise Hyssop as a nectar plant for their bees. The > question rang some > bells, but I realized the presentation I was thinking of > was Dr. Marion > Ellis presenting on lavender in France. Perhaps it was a > test patch at > Cornell University that I recall? Or an article by George > Ayers? > Again, bells are ringing, but not loudly. Perhaps someone > will > recollect better than I. > > Aaron Morris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:25:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Video: Honey Used to Treat Sea Turtle Wounds Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Video: Honey Used to Treat Sea Turtle Wounds Sea Turtle Rescue CNN, 2/21/2009 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2009/02/video-honey-used-to-treat-sea-turtle.html CNN's Reynolds Wolf visits a rehabilitation center for turtles on Jekyll Island, Georgia. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 10:20:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "David.Meldrum" Subject: Is Purple Loosestrife All Bad? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hope this is an appropriate forum for this question. My town (Andover, Ma.) is on a kick to get residents to raise and deploy Galaerucella beetles for biological control of Loosestrife. Now I don't want to start a holy war, but are there credible and sane arguments against this? One beekeeper told me that one thing that happens is that after the Loosestrife dies from the beetle infestation, an even more invasive plant (i forgot name of pant) takes over, so there is no net gain. I have also observed (anecdotal) that the Loosestrife seems to naturally recede to a lower level after about 10 years of growth. It seems whenever one specie starts to dominate, nature finds a way to retard it's growth. So what I am looking for, is factual and honest debating points on the subject. - Dave ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:16:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Is Purple Loosestrife All Bad? In-Reply-To: <49A804D3.1050005@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>>whenever one specie starts to dominate, nature finds a way to retard it's growth<<<< ****************************************** I wondered about this when Ct decided to import the beetles. You'll find some of my musings on this months' BC Bottom-board. The easy movement of the "invasive" species predicts that the world will one day be a homogenous place. On the way to that garden, what is considered "natural" seems to be what IS. Change itself is considered bad. I suppose any plant that could partner in the eutrofication (nutrient enrichment) of our ponds and swamps really is a bad newcomer. Those pesky water lilies are a case in point. Still, in the big picture these death throes of say, a local pond are perfectly natural. We have merely speeded up the process. Since we brought the weeds here it doesn't seem more unnatural to bring the control bug too. After all the bug was natures response the first time around. I think we ought to plant Loosestrife, harvest it and send the result to corn growers in Iowa for composting. That way we'd get our honey source back, we remove some nutrients from the water and fertilize the corn. I've gone this far; you guys figure out how to do the rest. Dick Marron ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:00:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Is Purple Loosestrife All Bad? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In parts of Eastern and Central NY the Purple Loosestrife has been totally wiped out by the beetle. And it happens *fast*. Clogging the swamps, destroying the cattail stands, starving the muskrats, etc. may be a very bad thing. But swamps are not the only place that loosestrife grows. We have lots of 'high water table' areas, where loosestrife also thrived. Few plants, including cattails, can grow in these areas. Not wet enough for swamp, too wet for normal pasture/woodlots. But the beetles don't care, and loosestrife is also gone from these areas, leaving wasteland. How can we be spending money on these things, and the eradication programs are very expensive, when kids do not have enough to eat, seniors do not have medical coverage, etc.? Something's wrong. Lloyd ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:46:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Burrup Subject: Is Purple Loosestrife All Bad? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You have a point Lloyd, but Purple Loosestrife and Flowering Rush plug up irrigation ditches too. If we can not get the irrigation water to the fields the impact is devastating. The benefit of a pollen nectar source does not out weigh the bad impact that exotic, invasive weeds have on our world. It is unfortunate, but some of the best nectar sources for our bees are also the worst of the invasive weeds. I have run into people on the weed campaign that are dead set against honeybees because they will so freely pollinate these weeds. The native pollinators supposedly will avoid at least some of these weeds. Dave South East Idaho ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:14:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: End of Direct Payment Farm Subsidies? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Obama's budget calls for the end of farm subsidies for farmers with over $500K revenue who receive direct annual payments. http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090227/BUSINESS01/902270364/1001/ Here is a guide to where some of that money goes http://farm.ewg.org/farm/progdetail.php?fips=00000&progcode=total&page=states If successful would this mean more idle ground for bee pasture in some states? Should beekeepers support this policy? ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:30:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: BEE-L to close MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Based on interpretation of "LISTSERV Policies for Information Technology Services, U. Albany" http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/list_policies.html the University at Albany will no longer support BEE-L, effective 5PM Monday, March 2, 2009. This is a "top level" decision and not open to discussion. There are two possibilities: simply turn off the list or migrate it to a commercial service provider. There might be costs on a commercial service provided, up to $1000 annually. Will subscribers donate? Discussion? I am away until tomorrow morning. Respectfully, Aaron Morris=20 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:32:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Anise Hyssop In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA34107565EDC@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > Hi Aaron and all Tibor Szabo of Puslinch Ontario grows Anise Hyssop along with many other plants that are attractive to honey bees. He sells seeds for most of the plants and potted plants for some. A visit to his beeyard (beside his house) is an adventure. The thousands of bees visiting the plants in bloom are amazing. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W (about 20 miles from Puslinch) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:33:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: BEE-L to close MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Such a valuable tool can't be lightly discarded! And the archives? Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:46:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: BEE-L to close MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Yahoo groups are free and have may options that might be useful - files, photos... This is sudden, but many financial decisions are sudden now days. Although I am generally lurking and reading, I would miss BEE-L. Larry Krengel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Morris" To: Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [BEE-L] BEE-L to close Based on interpretation of "LISTSERV Policies for Information Technology Services, U. Albany" http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/list_policies.html the University at Albany will no longer support BEE-L, effective 5PM Monday, March 2, 2009. This is a "top level" decision and not open to discussion. There are two possibilities: simply turn off the list or migrate it to a commercial service provider. There might be costs on a commercial service provided, up to $1000 annually. Will subscribers donate? Discussion? I am away until tomorrow morning. Respectfully, Aaron Morris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:07:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Southern Subject: Re: BEE-L to close In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA341075F0260@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 2/27/09 5:30 PM, Aaron Morris at AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU wrote: > There are two possibilities: simply turn off the list or migrate it to a > commercial service provider. Four possibilities: the above two, use free Groups like Yahoo or Google, or set up your own server. Google/Yahoo are a lot less than $1000, with the same time involvement on your part Set up a server is $100-$200 yearly hosting, plus whatever technical capability you need to hire. Good open source forum software is generally available. Your time involvement would be the same. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:01:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Armour Subject: Re: End of Direct Payment Farm Subsidies? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No. On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Brian Ames wrote: > Obama's budget calls for the end of farm subsidies for farmers with over > $500K revenue who receive > direct annual payments. > > > http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090227/BUSINESS01/902270364/1001/ > > Here is a guide to where some of that money goes > > > http://farm.ewg.org/farm/progdetail.php?fips=00000&progcode=total&page=states > > If successful would this mean more idle ground for bee pasture in some > states? Should beekeepers > support this policy? > > ******************************************************* > * Search the BEE-L archives at: * > * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * > ******************************************************* > ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:32:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: BEE-L to close In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe I should clarify. I think Aaron is speaking strictly of using LISTSERV or closely compatible software, so that the current list can be transferred simply to another LISTSERV, and the only change would be the list address. I am sure he is aware most of the other options, but first choice would be to maintain the list in its current configuration, with the full archives, etc. running just as is. As one who runs a number of mailing lists and has a number of domains with various bulletin boards, I have looked fairly thoroughly for something as good as LISTSERV, but not been able to find anything that has as good an interface. Mailman is not bad, but the archives are not as nice and the Admin interface is poor. There will be a new Mailman version out soon, and we can hope it approaches LISTSERV in sophistication. Maybe there are mods for the current version, but I have not found them. Also, Mailman can get slow with heavy loads. As for Yahoo.com (formerly OneList.com), I have a Yahoo group, or did before I gave it away -- BeeGadgets@Yahoo.co -- and it works, but Yahoo is not IMO not in the same class as LISTSERV. Google could be okay, too. But I don't think that is the direction that Aaron has in mind. A forum might be an option, but there are already some good forums, as many already know, but one more would simply fragment the community further. So, what is needed is a LISTSERV host or indications of financial support for hiring one. Otherwise, I'm afraid, BEE-L will be history. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:43:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: BEE-L to close In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA341075F0260@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just out of curiosity, what aspect of the policy is the list alleged to hav= e violated? As to future options for the list, I would suggest that lower cost possibil= ities also exist.=A0 The list could, for example, be converted to a discuss= ion forum format with email subscription or notification options.=A0 It wou= ldn't necessarily look and fee exactly like the current list but it could a= chieve the same basic result of moderated discussion. I recently set up such a discussion forum for our local bee club.=A0 (We do= n't have much traffic yet but I remain hopeful.)=A0 Cost for both the inter= net domain registration and hosting is about $6 per month.=A0 One of our me= mbers donates the cost of the service and writes the contribution off again= st his taxes. At that price, yes I think we can find a donor. Mike Rossander www.rossander.org/infosec =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:12:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike S Subject: Re: BEE-L to close/donations In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA341075F0260@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would be willing to donate at least $50 within a month to continue this l= ist.=A0 And I would be willing to contribute $100 annually for the list to = continue in a format similar to what exists today.=A0=A0 Mike in LA --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Aaron Morris wrote: Based on interpretation of "LISTSERV Policies for Information Technology Services, U. Albany" http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/list_policies.html the University at Albany will no longer support BEE-L, effective 5PM Monday, March 2, 2009. This is a "top level" decision and not open to discussion. There are two possibilities: simply turn off the list or migrate it to a commercial service provider. There might be costs on a commercial service provided, up to $1000 annually. Will subscribers donate? Discussion? I am away until tomorrow morning. Respectfully, Aaron Morris=20 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:35:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lesli Sagan Subject: Re: BEE-L to close/donations In-Reply-To: <319910.39665.qm@web53406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would be willing to donate. However, it would be worth asking out colleagues at other large institutions (Cornell, for instance) to host the list. -- ***************************** Lesli Sagan lesli.sagan@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:01:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: BEE-L to close Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If it comes down to money contributions count me in. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:27:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: D N Israel Subject: Re: BEE-L to close/donations In-Reply-To: <319910.39665.qm@web53406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 5H11) Why would it cost so much? Hosting is now a commodity - $5 a month Or Why not Use something free like ning.com? On Feb 27, 2009, at 9:12 PM, nMike S wrote: > I would be willing to donate at least $50 within a month to continue > this list. And I would be willing to contribute $100 annually for > the list to continue in a format similar to what exists today. > Mike in LA > > --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Aaron Morris wrote: > > Based on interpretation of "LISTSERV Policies for Information > Technology > Services, U. Albany" > http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/list_policies.html the University at > Albany will no longer support BEE-L, effective 5PM Monday, March 2, > 2009. This is a "top level" decision and not open to discussion. > > There are two possibilities: simply turn off the list or migrate it > to a > commercial service provider. There might be costs on a commercial > service provided, up to $1000 annually. Will subscribers donate? > > Discussion? > > I am away until tomorrow morning. > > Respectfully, > Aaron Morris > > ******************************************************* > * Search the BEE-L archives at: * > * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * > ******************************************************* > > > > > > ******************************************************* > * Search the BEE-L archives at: * > * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * > ******************************************************* ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:35:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: End of Direct Payment Farm Subsidies? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Eugene Makovec" Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:37:43 -0600 I vote yes. Not because of bee pasture (though that might be a bonus), but because these subsidies are a waste of tax money. I seriously doubt, however, that Obama can push that provision through Congress. Eugene Makovec Kirkwood, MO ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:44:00 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: BEE-L to close/donations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For me, Bee-L is like another beekeeping association or magazine, with the benefit that the back numbers are not scattered all over the house but searchable with a couple of clicks. Count me in. Gavin ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 21:05:23 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Buntine Subject: Re: BEE-L to close/donations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Count me in as well. Bob Avenel Oz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike S" To: Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 1:12 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] BEE-L to close/donations I would be willing to donate at least $50 within a month to continue this list. And I would be willing to contribute $100 annually for the list to continue in a format similar to what exists today. Mike in LA --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Aaron Morris wrote: Based on interpretation of "LISTSERV Policies for Information Technology Services, U. Albany" http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/list_policies.html the University at Albany will no longer support BEE-L, effective 5PM Monday, March 2, 2009. This is a "top level" decision and not open to discussion. There are two possibilities: simply turn off the list or migrate it to a commercial service provider. There might be costs on a commercial service provided, up to $1000 annually. Will subscribers donate? Discussion? I am away until tomorrow morning. Respectfully, Aaron Morris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: BEE-L to close In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA341075F0260@UAEXCH.univ.alban y.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > There might be costs on a commercial >service provided, up to $1000 annually. Will subscribers donate? How many members are there? At one time there were some 750. Charging a $2 annual registration fee would take care of it, wouldn't it? Charging $5 would get Aaron lunch at Panini's after working on "Our" list. Mike ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:02:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: BEE-L to close In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm up for that as well. I couldn't pay $50 a month as some are offering, but I could certainly see $5 or even $10 a year, given the information (and entertainment) I've gotten from this list over the years. I think $10 might drive a lot of people away, but $5 would probably pay for the list. I bet if you gave the option of adding a donation, Aaron could have several such lunches. Eugene "How many members are there? At one time there were some 750. Charging a $2 annual registration fee would take care of it, wouldn't it? Charging $5 would get Aaron lunch at Panini's after working on "Our" list." ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:39:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: BEE-L to close In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 27-Feb-09, at 9:01 PM, Brian Ames wrote: > If it comes down to money contributions count me in. > > Go for it Aaron. I expect even lurkers will come out of the closet to keep this thing going. What would I do in the evenings without Bee-L and my friends around the world, some met others not yet. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:47:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: BEE-L to close In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA341075F0260@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another solution would be a commercial sponsor or sponsors, along with membership contributions. I think it would be easy to get $50 from a sponsor to be represented by an ad of 6 lines or so at the bottom, including a URL. I already know a sponsor or two. That's $100. That would be a huge change. Of course, the best solution would be another university, but the days when the Internet was run on computer time and space donated by institutions is long gone, and BEE-L was lucky to continue this far. I think Guelph has a few lists, and if anyone here can pull strings, maybe that is a solution. Unfortunately, to migrate an unsponsored BEE-L to a commercial server, one year has to be paid up front. I know that some of us would front some of the money, and I doubt all members, or even a majority would contribute, but in all likelihood, enough could be raised annually. As in everything, there are leaders and there are followers. If the leaders pony up, most of the rest will follow. Of course, there are cheap alternatives, but would BEE-L still be BEE-L without the archives? I have been researching and there are some free public archivers, but LISTSERV is not in their list of supported archives and LISTSERV apparently does not use mbox format, it would be easy. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:53:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: BEE-L to close Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Put me down for a small annual donation. Let us know the amount that would work if a significant percentage of members donated and where to send the check. What ever works for you, Aaron. Steve Noble ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:31:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: BEE-L to close Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Its hard to understand the short notice, like wow this must be draining the budget at Albany at a horrid pace with all that expensive disk space and data management, or am I clueless? If we had a REASONABLE amount of time like a month, I think that it would be a simple matter to get this moved over and sponsors found. Mann Lake, Dadant and Bee Culture would all seem like possibilities in addition to the numerous bee organizations, beekeepers and list users. My guess is the money is a non issue and its a matter of finding someone to do the actual ground work. What about some of the leading universities in bee research like USC, University of Mn, North Carolina and Georgia (others and outside the USA) that could possibly host this list on their servers? Not allowing time online in this forum to organize is not being very supportive IMO. Aaron is there any chance we could get 1 month notice to organize? or I suggest we set up a temporary user group on yahoo or whatever with the sole purpose to organize a migration of this list somewhere else. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:48:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: BEE-L to close/donations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yahoo Groups (free) is good enough for hundreds of science related lists and has easily searched archives. Why isn't Yahoo good enough for Bee-L? Prestige reasons? Paul Cherubini ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:24:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L to close/donations In-Reply-To: <49A96ACA.168A@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Why isn't Yahoo good enough for Bee-L? Not prestige at all.  BEE-L has always been hosted on LISTSERV, an LSOFT proprietary product to which UAlbany subscribes.  LISTSERV is the product I know and I am sure BEE-L can be preserved on another LISTSERV site.  I do not know what might be the fate of the archives without the LISTSERV engine behind them.  Yahoo might be an acceptable alternative, but between now and Monday leaves no time for me to determine that.  BEE-L is not a paying job for me, I have an outside life too. The University objection to continued hosting of BEE-L comes from its usage policy which states, "List content must reasonably reflect the field of expertise, research, or study of the list sponsor as it relates to his/her function at the University."  My function at the University is not directly related to beekeeping.  As such, BEE-L will no longer be supported at the University at Albany.  This decision is final. The original sponsor for BEE-L was Dr. Edward Southwick at SUNY Brockport (part of the State of University of NY system).  Dr. Southwich was a bee researcher hence the LISTSERV was directly related to his function at the University.  It is not directly related to my function at the University.  The grace period since Dr. Southwick's passing that BEE-L has had through my sponsorship will end Monday. Any site with a license to LISTSERV could host BEE-L, provided the site's policies permit it and the site is willing to host the list. So far no volunteer has stepped forward.  I have the files necessary to move BEE-L to any LISTSERV host.  Lacking a free host, I looked to ListServ.com where the fees might run up to the figure I floated earlier.  As in all matters financial, final costs are not known until a contract is signed. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 17:46:05 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: BEE-L to close/donations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Why isn't Yahoo good enough for Bee-L? > Prestige reasons? No, I guess because you would lose almost 20 years of unique, moderated archive of informed discussion on beekeeping issues and bee biology. Gavin. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 13:11:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L to close In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Aaron is there any chance we could get 1 month notice to organize? No.  Monday was the negotiated grace period. >  or I suggest we set up a > temporary user group on yahoo or whatever with the sole purpose to organize a migration of this list > somewhere else. Plans to that effect are in the works. /Aa ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 14:12:52 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: BEE-L to close MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your neighborhood today. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000004) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 14:25:26 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: BEE-L to close MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron "List content must reasonably reflect the field of expertise, research, or study of the list sponsor as it relates to his/her function at the University." In this day and age, I think that a good argument could be made to counter this - as I understand your 'job' - Bee-L does tap into your area of expertise - look at USDA CAPs proposals - an area of study like bees covers all aspects, including electronics, computer science, information distribution, etc. - you have just put your expertise to work to support an area of study that benefits all of the US. I also know that University policy issues can be reversed. All universities like good PR, none like bad. I suggest - and Aaron, I'll take the heat - you clearly did not recommend this -- if someone can provide the e-mail of the President of the University - every Bee_L member should write COMMENDING Aaron and THE UNIVERSITY for the incredible job they have done to support beekeeping, which is a crucial part of agriculture - helps put food on the table -- billions of dollars of value, etc. Express disappointment in the decision that a major University would cut off such an incredible method of information sharing/education. Ask for an extension to resolve this - point out the disruption that this impossible deadline will cause; and plead the case that SURELY SUCH A FINE INSTITUTION as yours would want to continue to be known for its continuing support of modern day education and information sharing. Those of you overseas should put in the service provided to beekeepers around the world. Be nice, pour on the compliments, but express your great concern about the loss of such a valuable information sharing vehicle - isn't education what all universities ultimately are about? Jerry **************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your neighborhood today. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000004) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 16:42:39 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: BEE-L to close In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.albany.edu/president/executive.shtml -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 14:40:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: V Sten Subject: Re: BEE-L to close MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi It will likely be next to impossible to enter on somebody elses listserv, for which reason it may be necessary to purchase the listserv program, a price quotation for the program size required can be had here: http://www.lsoft.com/products/listserv_license.asp It is difficult to guess the one time outlay, it could be a couple of 1000's after which it shouldent be too expensive to rent server space. Once you have the price for the puchase ask for pledges from the list to cover the cost. Viktor, Ontario ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 14:51:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L to close In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry and all, I appreciate the sentiment, but flooding the powers that be will jeopardize my job. There is more to this than I can tell. This decision is irreversible. There are only two options: turn the list off or move it to another LISTSERV provider. Sincerely, Aaron ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 14:54:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L to close In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10902281142o706d839tadcaf81c889fc026@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PLEASE FOLKS, DO NOT DO THIS! Sincerely, Aaron Morris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 13:26:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: BEE-L to close In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > a price quotation for the program size required can be had here: > http://www.lsoft.com/products/listserv_license.asp > It is difficult to guess the one time outlay, it could be a couple of > 1000's after which it shouldent be too expensive to rent server space. Thanks for bringing that up again. I had looked it that option several times over the years, and had assumed in the most recent glance that the license fee is per year, but on closer look, it appears not to be. Finding a host to install LISTSERV may not be as simple as for many things. I have had some enquiries in on the very matter for a day or so now and have not heard back. However, it is possible to run it on a Windows home machine, judging by the specs! There is a demo download at http://www.lsoft.com/download/listserv.asp, so conceivably, Aaron or someone with a basic computer and an always-on connection could run the whole thing on his home computer, provided the ISP has no limit on email traffic per user. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 16:58:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: BEE-L to close Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 28 Feb 2009 13:26:36 -0700, allen wrote: >Finding a host to install LISTSERV may not be as simple as for many things. >I have had some enquiries in on the very matter for a day or so now and have >not heard back. > So are you saying if someone approached a large host like modwest its beyond their services to host our mail list using listserv? http://modwest.com/webhosting/ I would think that our traffic is nothing compared to large e commerce and/or video content sites. I don't understand why this would be an issue, please explain. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:30:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: BEE-L to close In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So are you saying if someone approached a large host like modwest its > beyond their services to host our mail list using listserv? Nope. I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that there do not seem to be lots of hosts that currently support LISTSERV, and if you read the installation guide and manual, plus consider that someone has to pay a large fee compared to the free mail list programs, you'll see why. It is also weekend, and the People Who Decide for the hosts who would have to decide to install new software -- a matter that requires some consideration -- are off somewhere, Don't worry. The situation is being managed. Suggestions, however, are appreciated, especially if they are new or offer something which may have been overlooked. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 17:55:19 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Do NOT CONTACT PRES at ALBANY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All I recant my suggestion. We DO NOT want to jeopardize Aaron's job! I was asked by Medhat if I could provide the service. At this moment, I am not aware that the Univ of MT has LISTSERV on its servers, and I don't have it on my company server. However, I am more than willing to see what we can do to host this. I won't have an answer before beginning of the week. The movers and shakers don't maintain the computer systems on the weekends - they're likely off skiing. I can check on Monday - but we are two hours behind the east coast. Aaron - if there's any way I can take this on, I will. I've a very good computer specialist as one of my research and business partners. I've one of the fastest ports on campus - but the Univ has gone nuts about firewalls and security, so the notion of a LISTSERV may not be so easy to sell. My business server could probably host this, but we're on the edge of town, and our internet service tends to be slow. To host this, I might have to upgrade the service. Jerry **************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your neighborhood today. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000004) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:32:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Bee Discussion? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What happened to ongoing discussion about bees? Carry on... ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 19:30:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Do NOT CONTACT PRES at ALBANY In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for your concern Jerry. I also appreciate your offer to consider hosting. If UM can pik up LISTSERV that would be great! I also appreciate to suggestions and offers from others. I am currently investigating the possibility of migrating BEE-L directly to L-SOFT, makers of LISTSERV®. I was not aware the ListServe.com was not associated with L-SOFT; thanks to Erik Whalen-Pedersen for that heads-up. L-SOFT does offer list hosting services and I'm investigating that possibility. Regardless, all of BEE-L is backed up. The archives are safe and secure and reside in at least 6 different locations. I suspect things will go silent Monday at 5PM EST. Perhaps sooner. Hopefully the silence will be short lived. Again, sincere thanks to all. Aaron ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 18:44:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: inge sinclair Subject: deeply saddened MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have for over 1 year looked forward ea. day to all of the discussions = and have kept quiet and watched. Please, should you all as scientists and = very knowledgeable beekeepers find another way to communicate, where someone = like me may learn, I would truly be honored to watch and learn again? I hope = that someone will leave an address to where this discussion group will find a home and may I have an invite. Sincerely Inge ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 22:45:24 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Bee Discussion? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carry on ... would that give us points or something? We are sad ... I am sad. BEE-L can not die. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 21:35:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: Bee Discussion? In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10902281745i308c133eqe28450d3d05cbed@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can't imagine life without this list, it's been important to me for over a decade. It can't go now, I'm just getting my brain back from neuro Lyme and was hoping to be able to write coherently again soon about our survivor bee stocks. Keep us posted, I would definitely kick in some money to help... Carolyn in Plum Branch SC Juanse Barros wrote: > > We are sad ... I am sad. > > BEE-L can not die. > ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * *******************************************************